From frankwri at YAHOO.COM Fri Sep 2 17:01:39 2005 From: frankwri at YAHOO.COM (Francisco Solorzano) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:01:39 -0500 Subject: Obras Cl=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1sicas_sobre_la_Lengua_N=E1huatl?= In-Reply-To: <1123085466.42f0ec9a30730@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Friend Do you know the mean of the word "verbo" in Nahuatl? Exist a word in these languaje for verb? Or exist a word mean "movimiento"? Yhank you, Frank. __________________________________________________ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Sep 2 18:34:26 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:34:26 -0500 Subject: "verb" and "movement" In-Reply-To: <20050902170139.35218.qmail@web30810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Frank, Nahuatl doesn't have "verbs", it has "verb phrases". The terminology we use here in Zacatecas for "verb phrase" is "tlachihualiztlahtolli", "an action phrase", or for short, "tlachihualiztli", "an action, or the act of doing something." "To move oneself" is "moolinia", so "self movement" is "mooliniliztli". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Sep 2, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Francisco Solorzano wrote: > Dear Friend > > Do you know the mean of the word "verbo" in Nahuatl? > > Exist a word in these languaje for verb? > > Or exist a word mean "movimiento"? > > Yhank you, Frank. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Correo Yahoo! > Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! > Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Sep 2 20:53:27 2005 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:53:27 -0500 Subject: "verb" and "movement" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm interested in what the question was. I didn't receive the question. Is Nahuat-l not making being distributed equally? Michael Quoting idiez at MAC.COM: > Frank, > Nahuatl doesn't have "verbs", it has "verb phrases". The terminology > we use here in Zacatecas for "verb phrase" is "tlachihualiztlahtolli", > "an action phrase", or for short, "tlachihualiztli", "an action, or the > act of doing something." > "To move oneself" is "moolinia", so "self movement" is "mooliniliztli". > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Académica de Idiomas > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > On Sep 2, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Francisco Solorzano wrote: > > > Dear Friend > > > > Do you know the mean of the word "verbo" in Nahuatl? > > > > Exist a word in these languaje for verb? > > > > Or exist a word mean "movimiento"? > > > > Yhank you, Frank. > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Correo Yahoo! > > Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! > > Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ > > > From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 21:07:19 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:07:19 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: Obras Cl=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1sicas_sobre_la_Lengua__N=E1huatl?= Message-ID: I resend the original message that some of you might have missed: >Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:01:39 -0500 >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >Sender: Nahua language and culture discussion >From: Francisco Solorzano >Subject: Re: Obras Clásicas sobre la Lengua Náhuatl >To: NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu > >Dear Friend > >Do you know the mean of the word "verbo" in Nahuatl? > >Exist a word in these languaje for verb? > >Or exist a word mean "movimiento"? > >Yhank you, Frank. > From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Fri Sep 2 22:11:19 2005 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:11:19 -0600 Subject: Question for the List Message-ID: Can any of you suggest what the primary professional associations, learned societies, or other interested groups whose members would likely to be interested in new publications that are based on Nahuatl texts. Thanks, Richley Crapo Utah State University From frankwri at YAHOO.COM Mon Sep 5 20:48:27 2005 From: frankwri at YAHOO.COM (Francisco Solorzano) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 15:48:27 -0500 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: Gracias por ayuda con palabra verbo. __________________________________________________ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ From idiez at MAC.COM Tue Sep 6 21:35:34 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 16:35:34 -0500 Subject: modern nahuatl orthographies Message-ID: Can anyone recommend a source which discusses the origin and development of the modern Nahuatl orthographies (the use of the "k", the "w", etc.)? John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Sep 9 14:27:10 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:27:10 -0500 Subject: zoyatl Message-ID: ¿Has anyone seen alternative combining forms for "zoyatl", "palm", such as 'zoz-" or "zox-"? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Sep 9 18:58:44 2005 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 13:58:44 -0500 Subject: zoyatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No. But zox- would not be unexpected, generally phonologically speaking. Michael Quoting idiez at MAC.COM: > ¿Has anyone seen alternative combining forms for "zoyatl", "palm", such > as 'zoz-" or "zox-"? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Académica de Idiomas > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx From indus56 at TELUSPLANET.NET Tue Sep 13 18:04:51 2005 From: indus56 at TELUSPLANET.NET (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:04:51 -0600 Subject: For Mesoamericanists in their leisure hours Message-ID: Dear listeros, My apologies for any cross-postings. I wanted to let you know of the release of the novel Hunger's Brides this week in the U.S. and U.K. in hardcover, and in paperback in Canada. Based on the life of Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz in 17th-century Mexico, the book's early chapters give special emphasis to the influences of the prehispanic world and Nahua culture during her childhood years in Nepantla and Amecameca. I am far from the first to note such influences in her work, of course, but I think it's fair to say that the breadth of interest Hunger's Brides takes in these issues represents a departure from the established portrait of Sor Juana in her time and place. It fascinated me to consider elements of her story, particularly her withdrawal from the world and mortification at the hands of her persecutors, in the context of the great mythic narratives of the Valley of Mexico -- Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca, and Topiltzin, to name a few. I drew also upon many of the images we have of feminine figures in Aztec mythology and was particularly intrigued by Susan Gillespie's then unpublished doctoral work on the Aztec "women of desiny". As well, the book takes up various legends and mythically- resonant historical events: the uprisings led by Martin Ocelotl and Andres Mixcoatl offer one example. I had also wanted present a somewhat complex moral view of the Aztec world -- to acknowledge both the darkness and the cultural glories, but also the humanity of daily life. The riddles and proverbs translated by Thelma Sullivan in the superb _A Scattering of Jades_ allowed me to offer readers glimpses into some of the whimsy and metaphorical richness of popular speech, as another window on the Nahua world. For anyone interested, an excerpt showing Sullivan's work put to the service of this end can be found here: http://www.hungersbrides.com/novel_abecedario.html I'll stop here. It's a pleasure to be able to offer you my thanks and to acknowledge the collegial spirit so often in evidence on this list. Best wishes, Paul Anderson A few links, for you, or for any of your students who might be interested. **************************************************************** a sampling of excerpts pertaining to the Conquest http://www.hungersbrides.com/mezo_conquest.html interactive discussion guides for reading groups, broken into three roles: reader, moderator, author http://www.hungersbrides.com/BookClubsCentral.html slide-shows of images taken from Sor Juana's former convent in Mexico City and her newly restored childhood home near Amecameca http://www.hungersbrides.com/gallery.html a multimedia introduction to the novel (click on "A baroque century ends") http://www.hungersbrides.com/player_320.html a digital-video interview with Las voces de Sor Juana, a group of young music students of the CNA discussing Sor Juana and her significance for them today http://www.hungersbrides.com/player_audio_vsj.html At the moment our Spanish language page is in disarray -- apologies to the hispanohablantes -- but there is a page for the german edition at: http://www.hungersbrides.com/storeroom_deutsch.html ********************************************************* Paul Anderson, Hunger's Brides. http://www.hungersbrides.com Based on the life of Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz in 17th-century Mexico. Published by: Random House (Canada), Carroll & Graf (US), Rubikon (Serbia), Constable & Robinson (UK), Pendo Verlag (Germany). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smarcos at INFOSEL.NET.MX Tue Sep 13 23:58:38 2005 From: smarcos at INFOSEL.NET.MX (silvia marcos) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:58:38 -0500 Subject: URGENT: For Mesoamericanists lists Message-ID: PLEASE change my e-mail address to: smarcos at att.net.mx I thank everyone for the stimulating and interesting information. I do not want to get lost from this list. Sylvia Marcos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From institute at CSUMB.EDU Thu Sep 15 15:31:58 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:31:58 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Ancient Maya Tour 2006 Info Message-ID: Dear All, Please find attached details for the Yucatán Tour "Lost Cities of the Ancient Maya" provided by way of a collaboration between INTRAX and CSUMB Extended Studies. I will be leading the tour to some of the most spectacular ancient Maya sites, and caverns (Loltun and Balankanche), in the region. The tour, which will span ancient Maya sites throughout Mexico's Yucatán peninsula, will depart on January 2nd and return on January 16th of 2006. University credit hours (4) are available for this tour via CSUMB's Extended Studies program. You will find included in the attached PDF, the tour registration forms and related information regarding specific sites on the itinerary and travel details pertaining to refunds and registration related matters. Remember, the due date for all registrants is October 14th of 2005. All payments must be in hand at the INTRAX address noted on the registration form by the date of October 14th. Please do feel free to contact me by email or by way of those voice numbers noted below if you have any further questions. Thank you! PS: I will be providing a tour orientation in the coming couple of weeks, and will notify you and the general public of the time and place as soon as that becomes available. Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization California State University, Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center, Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: ruben_mendoza at csumb.edu Voice: 831-582-3760; Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu; http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Throughout history it has been the inaction of those who could have acted, the indifference of those who should have known better, the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most, that has made it possible for evil to triumph. -Haile Selassie "Disce quasi semper victurus; vive quasi cras moriturus" ("Learn as if you were going to live forever; live as if you were going to die tomorrow"). -Anonymous "The pursuit of truth is what keeps us from pursuing each other." -James Billington "Garbage is garbage, but the history of garbage is scholarship." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mendoza Brochure.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1022426 bytes Desc: not available URL: From institute at CSUMB.EDU Fri Sep 16 13:52:21 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 06:52:21 -0700 Subject: Tour Update: Lost Cities of Ancient Maya (October 24th) Message-ID: Dear All, Please find attached a brochure publicizing the updated deadline of October 24th for all final payments due for the "Lost Cities of the Ancient Maya" tour to Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula. Yesterday I sent a version of the tour brochure that included, in error, the date of October 1st. That date was specific to a date submitted early on as part of the planning process. Otherwise, the attached tour brochure updates the date, includes the tour application forms, and specifics regarding who to contact. Direct contact with the INTRAX Education Abroad folks should be made with Susan Strow of INTRAX. Her extension is Toll-Free: 800.777.7766 ext. 633. Sue Strow is the point person for payments and questions regarding the Maya tour of January 2nd through 16th of 2006. Any other questions may be directed to me at 831.582.3760, or via email at ruben_mendoza at csumb.edu. PS: Please feel free to forward this version of the brochure to students and others who may be interested in a guided tour of the regions of Chiapas and the Yucatan. Four hours of university credited are available for the tour in question. Best Regards, Ruben Mendoza http://archaeology.csumb.edu/Courses/Maya/Syllabus/introduction.htm ---------------------------------------- Susan Strow|| Program Manager Intrax Education Abroad 600 California St, Fl. 10 San Francisco, CA 94108-2730 Toll-Free: 800.777.7766 ext. 633 Direct Phone: 415.434.5633 Fax: 415.434.5455 Email: [ mailto:sstrow at intraxinc.com ]sstrow at intraxinc.com Web: http://www.studytheworld.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mendoza Brochure.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1043394 bytes Desc: not available URL: From uncledelphi at SOFTHOME.NET Fri Sep 16 14:21:31 2005 From: uncledelphi at SOFTHOME.NET (uncledelphi at SOFTHOME.NET) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:21:31 -0600 Subject: Tour Update: Lost Cities of Ancient Maya (October 24th) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm not a moderator, but I must ask to you please refrain from repeatedly posting these large binaries to the mailing list. I have received the same file (or its revised version) a total of four times. Now my e-mail bandwidth quota is nearly expired. Please stop posting these binaries. From david at JEDDYSHAW.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Sep 16 15:07:06 2005 From: david at JEDDYSHAW.FREESERVE.CO.UK (David Eddyshaw) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:07:06 +0100 Subject: Tour Update: Lost Cities of Ancient Maya (October 24th) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Archaeology Institute writes: > Dear All, > > Please find attached a brochure publicizing the updated deadline of October 24th for all final payments due for the "Lost Cities of the Ancient Maya" tour to Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula. Yesterday I sent a version of the tour brochure that > included, in error, the date of October 1st. That date was specific to a date submitted early on as part of the planning process. Otherwise, the attached tour brochure updates the date, includes the tour application forms, and specifics regarding > who to contact. Direct contact with the INTRAX Education Abroad folks should be made with Susan Strow of INTRAX. Her extension is Toll-Free: 800.777.7766 ext. 633. Sue Strow is the point person for payments and questions regarding the Maya tour > of January 2nd through 16th of 2006. Any other questions may be directed to me at 831.582.3760, or via email at ruben_mendoza at csumb.edu. PS: Please feel free to forward this version of the brochure to students and others who may be interested in a > guided tour of the regions of Chiapas and the Yucatan. Four hours of university credited are available for the tour in question. > > Best Regards, Ruben Mendoza > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/Courses/Maya/Syllabus/introduction.htm > > ---------------------------------------- > > Susan Strow|| Program Manager > > Intrax Education Abroad > > 600 California St, Fl. 10 > > San Francisco, CA 94108-2730 > > Toll-Free: 800.777.7766 ext. 633 > > Direct Phone: 415.434.5633 > > Fax: 415.434.5455 > > Email: [ mailto:sstrow at intraxinc.com ]sstrow at intraxinc.com > > Web: http://www.studytheworld.com > > > > > DO NOT POST THIS CRAP ON NAHUATL_L! You've just wasted 10 minutes of my time blocking my inbox. I guarantee all the other members of the list will feel the same You're a spammer, and a particularly annoying one. More of this and I'll complain to your ISP From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Fri Sep 16 15:33:34 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:33:34 CDT Subject: Do's and don'ts Message-ID: Colleagues, I would encourage people not to post long and complicated files to the list because of the problems this causes for many subcribers. I particularly would discourage people from promoting commercial ventures. There is a fine line we need to walk, but I call upon your best intentions. Once something has happened, PLEASE DO NOT reply to the entire list. It merely causes all of us to get more messages that we need to discard. In case of problems write to me directly, not the list. In case of a complaint to another subscriber, write to them, and copy me. DO NOT simply hit reply because nine times out of ten you will merely send the message to 200 others on the list, and we will fall into a cycle of dozens of "me too" messages, which do not promote the goals of the list. Thanks to you all. J. F. Schwaller List owner John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 Fax 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From afinn23 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 17 10:18:04 2005 From: afinn23 at HOTMAIL.COM (Alex Finn) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:18:04 +0100 Subject: pdf distribution Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Mon Sep 26 21:22:30 2005 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria Bolivar) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:22:30 -0700 Subject: Zempaz=?iso-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= In-Reply-To: <20050815162401.4696.qmail@web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ¿Me dicen la etimología de Zempaxúchitl? También si saben algo de cómo evoluciona esta palabra. Entiendo que quiere decir flor de sol o flor de oro. María Dolores Bolívar From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon Sep 26 22:57:57 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:57:57 -0400 Subject: Zempaz=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= Message-ID: Zempazuchitl o zempaxuchitl es una version de la palabra cempoalxochitl que aparece en el Codice florentino. Cempoalli quiere "cuenta completa" o "veinte" y "xochitl" es "flor." Se refiere a tagetes erecta y parece que algunos la llaman "flor de los veinte petalos." Sahagun las describe como amarillas y hermosas. Quizas por eso se asocia tambien con el sol y el oro. Galen Maria Bolivar wrote: > ¿Me dicen la etimología de Zempaxúchitl? También si saben algo de cómo > evoluciona esta palabra. > > Entiendo que quiere decir flor de sol o flor de oro. > > María Dolores Bolívar > > From lemoni1 at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 27 10:27:25 2005 From: lemoni1 at YAHOO.COM (Corrinne Burns) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:27:25 +0100 Subject: Zempaz=?iso-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= In-Reply-To: <43387CF5.7050003@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Dear Maria, Sorry I don't speak Spanish but I read your email by using a translator. Just to add a little to what Galen said, if it helps: Cempoalxochitl (Tagetes erecta) seems to be also referred to as Centzonxochitl (400 flower) occasionally. Sahagun says cempoalxochitl can be male or female; the male is smaller with only 1 flower, the female is larger.He says there are many kinds of cempoalxochitl. It is related to the Macuilxochitl ("5 flower"), Tagetes canulata, described by Sahagun as the colour of yellow ochre. Interestingly Macuilxochitl is also the name of an Aztec god. He was the male aspect of Xochiquetzal, who was the goddess of flowers and death and is usually depicted with a bouquet of cempoalxochitl. Cempoalxochitl and macuilxochitl are in the same family as Yauhltli, the cloud plant (Tagetes lucida). Sahagun knew this as he says in the Florentine Codex that yauhtli is "like the tepecemopoalxochitl herb". ("Tepe" means "hill"). I hope this is of some interest. I am studying for my Masters degree in Tagetes species as used in Mexico both now and in the past. I'd be interested to hear about your Tagetes work. I hope you can read this! If not you can use the translator that I used to read your email: http://www.freetranslation.com/ although it doesn't understand grammar very well and the results can be quite amusing. All the best ¡Espero que usted pueda leer esto! Si no usted puede utilizar al traductor que utilicé para leer su correo electrónico: http://www.freetranslation.com/ Aunque no entienda la gramática muy bien y los resultados pueden estar divertiendo bastante. Todo el mejor Corrinne --- Galen Brokaw wrote: > Zempazuchitl o zempaxuchitl es una version de la > palabra cempoalxochitl > que aparece en el Codice florentino. Cempoalli > quiere "cuenta completa" > o "veinte" y "xochitl" es "flor." Se refiere a > tagetes erecta y parece > que algunos la llaman "flor de los veinte petalos." > Sahagun las describe > como amarillas y hermosas. Quizas por eso se asocia > tambien con el sol y > el oro. > > Galen > > > Maria Bolivar wrote: > > ¿Me dicen la etimología de Zempaxúchitl? También > si saben algo de cómo > > evoluciona esta palabra. > > > > Entiendo que quiere decir flor de sol o flor de > oro. > > > > María Dolores Bolívar > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Tue Sep 27 10:59:01 2005 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria Bolivar) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 03:59:01 -0700 Subject: Zempaz=?iso-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= In-Reply-To: <20050927102725.72108.qmail@web32115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for all your help. Sorry about the monolingual blackout. I thank you both for your explanations and very very helpful info on the flower of the death. Maria From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Tue Sep 27 11:27:18 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 06:27:18 -0500 Subject: Zempaz=?iso-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mariahtzin, Here is a list of the occurrences of "cempoalxoch..." from the Florentine Codex. In case you are interested in the context, book and page numbers are given. The "f." number is irrelevant; it is just to help me locate material. Saludos, Joe cempoalxochitl** 1. imiicpacxochiuh, inxoxochicozqui *cempoalxochitl* iyacatiuh.. they had their wreaths of flowers upon their heads; their garlands of tagetes flowers went leading. (b.2 f.5 p.104). 2. ihuan yancuican ineuc in xochitl, in *cempoalxochitl*, in yexochitl.. and for the first time the sweetness of flowers ---tagetes, tobacco flowers [---was smelled]. (b.2 f.5 p.105). 3. necenmanalo in tepepan in tlatemolo in ixquich xochitl, in nepapan xochitl, in tepepan xochitl, in acocoxochitl, huitzitzillacoxochitl, tepecempoalxochitl, nextamalxochitl, tlacoxochitl, oceloxochitl, cacaloxochitl, ocoxochitl, anozo aocoxochitl, cuahueloxochitl, yolloxochitl, tlalcacaloxochitl, *cempoalxochitl*, acaxochitl, atlacuezona, tlapalatlacuezona, atzatzamolxochitl.. there was scattering over the mountains when there was looking for every flower ---various flowers, mountain flowers, dahlias, hummingbird flowers, mountain tagetes, ranunculus, bocconias, tiger lilies, plumerias, didymeas, forest magnolias, talaumas, earth plumerias, tagetes, lobelias, white water lilies, red water lilies, castalias. (b.2 f.6 p.108). 4. inic quintepachoa, papachtli ica, tlaolollalilli, tlaoolollalili, ihuan toltapayolli, ihuan nopalli, ihuan *cempoalxochitl*:. thus did they pelt them: it was with [matted] tree parasites gathered into balls, gathered into many balls, and reeds [pressed into] balls, and cactus leaves, and tagetes flowers. (b.2 f.7 p.119). 5. aic polihui in elotl, in ayotetl, in ayoxochquilitl, in huauhtzontli, in chilchotl, i xitomatl, in exotl, in *cempoalxochitl*:. never did the ears of green maize, the gourds, the squash blossoms, the heads of amaranth, the green chilis, the tomatoes, the green beans, the cempoalxochitl, fail. (b.3 f.3 p.47). 6. *cempoalxochitl*,. cempoalxochitl (b.11 f.20 p.200). 7. cihuaxochitl, *cempoalxochitl* yehuatl in huehuei. the female cempoalxochitl is the large one. (b.11 f.20 p.200). 8. oquichxochitl: *cempoalxochitl* yehuatl in tepitoton zan ce iix.. the male cempoalxochitl is the small one; there is just a single flower. (b.11 f.20 p.200). 9. macuilxochitl, *cempoalxochitl* yehuatl in tezonauhqui,. the macuilxochitl [variety of] cempoalxochitl is the color of yellow ochre. (b.11 f.20 p.200). 10. zan no *cempoalxochitl* itech pohui,. it also belongs among the cempoalxochitl. (b.11 f.20 p.200). 11. *cempoalxochitl*:. cempoalxochitl (b.11 f.21 p.214). 12. in icueponca, quitocayotia: *cempoalxochitl*,. its blossom is given the name cempoalxochitl. (b.11 f.21 p.214). 13. in *cempoalxochitl*, cihuaxochitl: huehuei. the female cempoalxochitl is large. (b.11 f.21 p.214). 14. *cempoalxochitl*: macuilxochitl:. macuilxochitl [variety of] cempoalxochitl (b.11 f.21 p.214). 15. *cempoalxochitl* oquichxochitl zan ce iix, amo xochiamatlapaltilahuac.. the male cempoalxochitl has only a single flower, with thin petals. (b.11 f.21 p.214). cempoalxochitla** 16. *cempoalxochitla* mapoztectli in immac. their hands each went filled with flowering tagetes branches. (b.2 f.6 p.117). incecempoalxochiuh** 17. auh in ixquich tlacatl macehualli, in tlatlatta, mochintin inxoxochiuh *incecempoalxochiuh*: ihuan cequintin imiiztauhiaxochiuh.. and all the common folk who looked on, all carried, each one, their flowers; each one their tagetes flowers; and some carried, each one, their artemisia flowers. (b.2 f.4 p.94). tepecempoalxochitl** 18. necenmanalo in tepepan in tlatemolo in ixquich xochitl, in nepapan xochitl, in tepepan xochitl, in acocoxochitl, huitzitzillacoxochitl, *tepecempoalxochitl*, nextamalxochitl, tlacoxochitl, oceloxochitl, cacaloxochitl, ocoxochitl, anozo aocoxochitl, cuahueloxochitl, yolloxochitl, tlalcacaloxochitl, cempoalxochitl, acaxochitl, atlacuezona, tlapalatlacuezona, atzatzamolxochitl.. there was scattering over the mountains when there was looking for every flower ---various flowers, mountain flowers, dahlias, hummingbird flowers, mountain tagetes, ranunculus, bocconias, tiger lilies, plumerias, didymeas, forest magnolias, talaumas, earth plumerias, tagetes, lobelias, white water lilies, red water lilies, castalias. (b.2 f.6 p.108). 19. zan tepiton, iuhquin *tepecempoalxochitl*;. it is small like the tepecempoalxochitl herb. (b.11 f.14 p.145). From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Tue Sep 27 11:35:35 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 06:35:35 -0500 Subject: Zempaz=?iso-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ...... p.s. Something that I had never noticed before: "cempoalxochitl" (and related words) do not occur in Molina's dictionaries!! Why? From budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR Mon Sep 26 23:00:00 2005 From: budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 01:00:00 +0200 Subject: Zempaz=?UNKNOWN?Q?=FAchitl?= Message-ID: 6 vendémiaire an CCXIV (le 27 septembre 2005 d. c.-d. c. g.), 01h00. ---- Message d'origine ---- De : Maria Bolivar À : NAHUAT-L Envoyé : lundi 26 septembre 2005 23:22 Objet : Zempazúchitl > ¿Me dicen la etimología de Zempaxúchitl? También si saben algo de cómo > evoluciona esta palabra. > > Entiendo que quiere decir flor de sol o flor de oro. > > María Dolores Bolívar Cf. Alexis Wimmer's « lexik C.doc » : CEMPOHUALXOCHITL (cempo:hualxo:chitl) : Rose d'Inde. Œillet d'Inde. (Marie-Noelle Chamoux) Marigold. (R. Joe Campbell) Flor que llaman de muertos, y otros, clavel grande de indias. (Clavigero Reglas) Celéndula, flor de muerto, zempasuchil. cempo:hual-li : twenty ; xo:chitl : flower. From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Tue Sep 27 13:28:30 2005 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:28:30 -0400 Subject: Zempaz=?iso-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= Message-ID: Hope this doesn't take the discussion to far from Nahuatl, but I have long wondered how it is that the marigold (genus Tagetes, zempualxochitl, cempasuchil, simpasuche, etc.--there are many pronunciations even in the same town) came to be the "flower of death" in All Saint's (Todos Santos) celebrations in Haiti as well as in Mexico. Did Haiti get the flower and this use of it from Mexico, or was there a prior European (or at least Franco-Spanish) use of marigolds for the Days of the Dead? Many people, including me, assume that the cempasuchil has been the "flower of the dead" in Mexico since pre-Spanish times, but it wouldn't hurt to test these assumptions. Anybody know about a) pre-Spanish evidence for use of marigolds to commemorate the dead, and/or b) pre-1492 use of marigolds in the European All Saint's celebrations? (For that matter, were there pre-1492 species of Tagetes in Europe? I note that pre-1492 English uses of the word "marigold" refer to Calendula, a separate genus of flower, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not being a botanist or gardener, I probably couldn't tell one from the other.) David Frye University of Michigan From lemoni1 at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 27 14:15:10 2005 From: lemoni1 at YAHOO.COM (Corrinne Burns) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:15:10 +0100 Subject: Zempaz=?iso-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= In-Reply-To: <7294219083B51445BE4F7D2742F0A89110D76E@ECLUST1-VS2.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: I don't know anything about Haiti, but I may be able to answer another of your questions. There were no Tagetes species in Europe before the Conquest; the genus is native to Mexico. The flowers of the European Calendula genus were thought to be flowers of the Virgin Mary (the name marigold derives from "Mary's Gold"), and it is assumed that Tagetes came to be called marigolds because Europeans mistook Tagetes growing in Mexico for Calendula, at least on first sight. I think the use of Tagetes on the Day of the Dead comes from Xochiquetzal; she was the guardian of graves and she was honoured with cempoalxochitl. But there are many more instances of Tagetes uses pre-Spanish festivals, which Joe has covered with his email of references to Tagetes in the Florentine Codex. Going back to Maria's email: the reference to "flowers of gold" reminds me of a bit of Aztec folklore. The flowers of Tagetes patula are typically orangy-yellow with red splashed in the edges. After the conquest, these flowers were considered to represent the looted gold of Mexico, covered with the blood of the injured Mexica people. Finally there are references to Tagetes in the manuscript of Hernandez, the Rerum Medicarum Novae Hispaniae Thesaurus. The scanned pages are on the attachment to this email. Corrinne --- "Frye, David" wrote: > Hope this doesn't take the discussion to far from > Nahuatl, but I have long wondered how it is that the > marigold (genus Tagetes, zempualxochitl, > cempasuchil, simpasuche, etc.--there are many > pronunciations even in the same town) came to be the > "flower of death" in All Saint's (Todos Santos) > celebrations in Haiti as well as in Mexico. Did > Haiti get the flower and this use of it from Mexico, > or was there a prior European (or at least > Franco-Spanish) use of marigolds for the Days of the > Dead? Many people, including me, assume that the > cempasuchil has been the "flower of the dead" in > Mexico since pre-Spanish times, but it wouldn't hurt > to test these assumptions. Anybody know about a) > pre-Spanish evidence for use of marigolds to > commemorate the dead, and/or b) pre-1492 use of > marigolds in the European All Saint's celebrations? > (For that matter, were there pre-1492 species of > Tagetes in Europe? I note that pre-1492 English uses > of the word "marigold" refer to Calendula, a > separate genus of flower, according to the Oxford > English Dictionary. Not being a botanist or > gardener, I probably couldn't tell one from the > other.) > > David Frye > University of Michigan > > > > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Rerum Hernandez Tagetes.doc Type: application/msword Size: 204800 bytes Desc: 3239255842-Rerum Hernandez Tagetes.doc URL: From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Tue Sep 27 20:49:43 2005 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria Bolivar) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:49:43 -0700 Subject: Zempaz=?iso-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= In-Reply-To: <7294219083B51445BE4F7D2742F0A89110D76E@ECLUST1-VS2.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: Los cerros, hacia Milpa Alta, se llenan de cempazúchil. Es una cosa maravillosa. Ocurre en octubre. Es tan bonito que no se puede describir. Lo más impresionante es el olor que le agrega al campo fresco un aroma tan particular. La flor es olorosísima y sus tonalidades de ocre y de rojo hermosas que saltan a la vista como un mar de colores que jamás podría parecer monótono. Yo nunca olvido ese olor y esa imagen. De verdad que son hermosísimas. Ayer, mientras buscaba encontré una foto de la flor en tonos más rojizos y me evocó esa imagen. Me pregunto si simplemente es más común el ocre anaranjado. Por ahí debemos buscar pues me pareció, durante el tiempo que viví en Zacatecas, que a la calabaza en la sierra de Nochistlán la llamaban la fruta del sol. El color de la calabaza es muy similar al de la flor de los muertos. Yo tuve una visión una vez que iba por Escondido, por el rumbo de San Pascual, en época de calabazas, de que son muy similares. No el olor, pero sí la sensación de humedad que proyecta la calabaza cuando está en la tierra. Es como si fertilizara la tierra, algo muy extraño. Y ese es el significado, según entiendo, de la celebración de los muertos, la culminación de un ciclo en el que se renueva la vida y la tierra se renueva y humidifica. En una ocasión un mexicano se quejaba de que hubiese calabazas en la fiesta de muertos y yo me pregunto si no habría, justamente, que recuperar a la calabaza. Alguien que me cuente algo de la genealogía de las calalabazas, esas grandotas, color de sol. Gracias mil María Dolores Bolívar "We don´t see things as they are, We see things as we are." Anais Nin Dr. María Dolores Bolívar MBOLIVAR at san.rr.com http://geografiaserrantes.com/laruda/ http://geografiaserrantes.com/imaginomios/ www.culturadoor.com -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Frye, David Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:29 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Zempazúchitl Hope this doesn't take the discussion to far from Nahuatl, but I have long wondered how it is that the marigold (genus Tagetes, zempualxochitl, cempasuchil, simpasuche, etc.--there are many pronunciations even in the same town) came to be the "flower of death" in All Saint's (Todos Santos) celebrations in Haiti as well as in Mexico. Did Haiti get the flower and this use of it from Mexico, or was there a prior European (or at least Franco-Spanish) use of marigolds for the Days of the Dead? Many people, including me, assume that the cempasuchil has been the "flower of the dead" in Mexico since pre-Spanish times, but it wouldn't hurt to test these assumptions. Anybody know about a) pre-Spanish evidence for use of marigolds to commemorate the dead, and/or b) pre-1492 use of marigolds in the European All Saint's celebrations? (For that matter, were there pre-1492 species of Tagetes in Europe? I note that pre-1492 English uses of the word "marigold" refer to Calendula, a separate genus of flower, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not being a botanist or gardener, I probably couldn't tell one from the other.) David Frye University of Michigan From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Tue Sep 27 21:16:15 2005 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria Bolivar) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:16:15 -0700 Subject: Zempaz=?iso-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= In-Reply-To: <20050927141510.65977.qmail@web32105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here is the Picture I found in Internet. It is only a thumbnail since it is an agency. But you can see what I mean about the colors. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cuartoscuro.com/agenci a/data/thumbnails/68/1101Flor.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cuartoscuro.com/a gencia/categories.php%3Fcat_id%3D68%26sessionid%3Df56ea42f93c984240a1719 e52997f948%26page%3D92&h=158&w=225&sz=11&tbnid=HCSnNoaWOfcJ:&tbnh=71&tbn w=102&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dflor%2Bde%2Bzempaz%25C3%25BAchil% 26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN María "We don´t see things as they are, We see things as we are." Anais Nin Dr. María Dolores Bolívar MBOLIVAR at san.rr.com http://geografiaserrantes.com/laruda/ http://geografiaserrantes.com/imaginomios/ www.culturadoor.com -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu] On Behalf Of Corrinne Burns Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 7:15 AM To: NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu Subject: Re: Zempazúchitl I don't know anything about Haiti, but I may be able to answer another of your questions. There were no Tagetes species in Europe before the Conquest; the genus is native to Mexico. The flowers of the European Calendula genus were thought to be flowers of the Virgin Mary (the name marigold derives from "Mary's Gold"), and it is assumed that Tagetes came to be called marigolds because Europeans mistook Tagetes growing in Mexico for Calendula, at least on first sight. I think the use of Tagetes on the Day of the Dead comes from Xochiquetzal; she was the guardian of graves and she was honoured with cempoalxochitl. But there are many more instances of Tagetes uses pre-Spanish festivals, which Joe has covered with his email of references to Tagetes in the Florentine Codex. Going back to Maria's email: the reference to "flowers of gold" reminds me of a bit of Aztec folklore. The flowers of Tagetes patula are typically orangy-yellow with red splashed in the edges. After the conquest, these flowers were considered to represent the looted gold of Mexico, covered with the blood of the injured Mexica people. Finally there are references to Tagetes in the manuscript of Hernandez, the Rerum Medicarum Novae Hispaniae Thesaurus. The scanned pages are on the attachment to this email. Corrinne --- "Frye, David" wrote: > Hope this doesn't take the discussion to far from > Nahuatl, but I have long wondered how it is that the > marigold (genus Tagetes, zempualxochitl, > cempasuchil, simpasuche, etc.--there are many > pronunciations even in the same town) came to be the > "flower of death" in All Saint's (Todos Santos) > celebrations in Haiti as well as in Mexico. Did > Haiti get the flower and this use of it from Mexico, > or was there a prior European (or at least > Franco-Spanish) use of marigolds for the Days of the > Dead? Many people, including me, assume that the > cempasuchil has been the "flower of the dead" in > Mexico since pre-Spanish times, but it wouldn't hurt > to test these assumptions. Anybody know about a) > pre-Spanish evidence for use of marigolds to > commemorate the dead, and/or b) pre-1492 use of > marigolds in the European All Saint's celebrations? > (For that matter, were there pre-1492 species of > Tagetes in Europe? I note that pre-1492 English uses > of the word "marigold" refer to Calendula, a > separate genus of flower, according to the Oxford > English Dictionary. Not being a botanist or > gardener, I probably couldn't tell one from the > other.) > > David Frye > University of Michigan > > > > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 28 12:58:19 2005 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna Sanchez) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:58:19 -0400 Subject: Zempaz=?iso-8859-1?Q?=FAchitl?= Message-ID: Semantic associations between the meaning of cempoalli as "full count" and a completed life have been forwarded, and may explain the significance of cempoalxochitl as a flower associated with death. Joanna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Brokaw" To: Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 6:57 PM Subject: Re: Zempazúchitl > Zempazuchitl o zempaxuchitl es una version de la palabra cempoalxochitl > que aparece en el Codice florentino. Cempoalli quiere "cuenta completa" o > "veinte" y "xochitl" es "flor." Se refiere a tagetes erecta y parece que > algunos la llaman "flor de los veinte petalos." Sahagun las describe como > amarillas y hermosas. Quizas por eso se asocia tambien con el sol y el > oro. > > Galen > > > Maria Bolivar wrote: >> ¿Me dicen la etimología de Zempaxúchitl? También si saben algo de cómo >> evoluciona esta palabra. >> >> Entiendo que quiere decir flor de sol o flor de oro. >> >> María Dolores Bolívar >