From schwallr at morris.umn.edu  Tue Apr  4 14:55:31 2006
From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:55:31 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Hoitzitziltototl
Message-ID: <TUE.4.APR.2006.095531.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I received this inquiry directly from Prof. Corti.

I assume that this person is asking about 
huitziltototl or a hummingbird.  Is there some 
reason that the -tzi- would be reduplicated in the middle?



>From: Elio Corti <eliocorti at summagallicana.it>
>To: John F Schwaller <schwallr at morris.umn.edu>
>Subject: Hoitzitziltototl
>
>Dear Mr Schwaller,
>I do need, if possible, to identify a bird – 
>Hoitzitziltototl – about which is speaking 
>Bartolomeo Ambrosini in his Paralipomena 
>(additions) to the works of Ulisse Aldrovandi 
>(1522-1605) dealing with animals.
>
>Albrosini's Paralipomena were published in 1642 
>in Latin and in the chapter of American small 
>birds he writes that there are small 
>multicolored birds called by Amerindians 
>Hoitzitziltototl (the old text of this word is 
>not too much clear), and these birds could be 
>called by Europeans as "multicolored bird".


John F. Schwaller
President - elect
SUNY Potsdam

Until 6-30-06:
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at morris.umn.edu


From schwallr at morris.umn.edu  Tue Apr  4 19:51:55 2006
From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 14:51:55 -0500
Subject: Future for the list
Message-ID: <TUE.4.APR.2006.145155.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Colleagues,

As some of you have noticed, my signature line has changed.  I am in 
the process of leaving the University of Minnesota and moving to 
Potsdam, New York, where I am the President of SUNY Potsdam, and 
office I have now been serving for about 3 weeks.

I founded the list back in the late 1980's while I was at Florida 
Atlantic University, and it has moved around with me as I proceeded 
from job to job.  Potsdam's list software is not currently up to the 
standard that we all expect, and it will be a few months until new 
software is installed.  faced with that, and my history of moves, I 
decided to find a more permanent home for Nahuat-l.  FAMSI, the 
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. has 
graciously offered to host the list.  It also hosts the AZTLAN list 
on Mesoamerican archeology and cultural history, which focuses mostly 
on the Maya but includes all pre-Columbian cultures.

Over the next few days / weeks, we will be running tests on the new 
system.  You will not have to do anything immediately.  We will move 
all accounts from UMM to FAMSI.  Once the move is complete, in order 
to post a message you will use the new address rather than the 
@lists.umn.edu address.  But if you forget, that's OK, we'll have an 
automatic forward in place.

J. F. Schwaller
List owner



John F. Schwaller
President - elect
SUNY Potsdam

Until 6-30-06:
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at morris.umn.edu


From magnuspharao at GMAIL.COM  Thu Apr  6 02:19:03 2006
From: magnuspharao at GMAIL.COM (magnus hansen)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 20:19:03 -0600
Subject: Hoitzitziltototl
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060404095333.0427eca8@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.APR.2006.201903.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Here Hueyapan, Morelos the hummingbird is not known as witzilin as in
classical náhuatl but as witzitziki with a double -tzi. So maybe there are
other dialectal variants with doubled -tzi and absolute as well.
Magnus Pharao
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From teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Apr  6 16:32:36 2006
From: teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM (Steffen Haurholm-Larsen)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:32:36 +0000
Subject: from small bird to hummingbird
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060404095333.0427eca8@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.APR.2006.163236.0000.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hi,

Actually, Molina has the form which Mr. Corti is referring to.

Vitzitzilin. cierto paxarito. (f. 157v)

So there does not seem to have been a change in that word in the form of a 
reduplication, at least not between "classical" n�huatl and the modern 
Hueyapan dialect that Magnus is referring to.

best regards, Steffen H.-Larsen


>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at morris.umn.edu>
>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
>Subject: Fwd: Hoitzitziltototl
>Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:55:31 -0500
>
>I received this inquiry directly from Prof. Corti.
>
>I assume that this person is asking about huitziltototl or a hummingbird.  
>Is there some reason that the -tzi- would be reduplicated in the middle?
>
>
>
>>From: Elio Corti <eliocorti at summagallicana.it>
>>To: John F Schwaller <schwallr at morris.umn.edu>
>>Subject: Hoitzitziltototl
>>
>>Dear Mr Schwaller,
>>I do need, if possible, to identify a bird � Hoitzitziltototl � about 
>>which is speaking Bartolomeo Ambrosini in his Paralipomena (additions) to 
>>the works of Ulisse Aldrovandi (1522-1605) dealing with animals.
>>
>>Albrosini's Paralipomena were published in 1642 in Latin and in the 
>>chapter of American small birds he writes that there are small 
>>multicolored birds called by Amerindians Hoitzitziltototl (the old text of 
>>this word is not too much clear), and these birds could be called by 
>>Europeans as "multicolored bird".
>
>
>John F. Schwaller
>President - elect
>SUNY Potsdam
>
>Until 6-30-06:
>University of Minnesota, Morris
>600 E 4th Street
>Morris, MN  56267
>320-589-6015
>FAX 320-589-6399
>schwallr at morris.umn.edu

_________________________________________________________________
V�lg selv hvordan du vil kommunikere - skrift, tale, video eller billeder 
med MSN Messenger:  http://messenger.msn.dk/  - her kan du det hele


From ylouis at NJCU.EDU  Fri Apr  7 20:01:22 2006
From: ylouis at NJCU.EDU (ylouis)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:01:22 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl tutor NYC area
Message-ID: <FRI.7.APR.2006.160122.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Can anyone provide a lead to a Nahuatl tutor in the New York City larger metro 
area for beginning instruction?

Thanks much,
Yvette

Dr. Yvette Louis
Assistant Professor
New Jersey City University
YLouis at njcu.edu


From david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Apr 14 23:15:37 2006
From: david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM (David Becraft)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:15:37 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2006.161537.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with Dr. Anne 
Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and critique it 
at:
http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/


From floricanto3 at GMAIL.COM  Fri Apr 14 23:26:27 2006
From: floricanto3 at GMAIL.COM (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:26:27 -0500
Subject: Mexica Movement
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F26C5E95AFE6437674A77E68BC00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2006.182627.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

David,

Could you send this as a Word doc. it will be easier to read.  Thanks.

Juan


On 4/14/06, David Becraft <david_becraft at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with Dr.
> Anne
> Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and critique it
> at:
> http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>
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From micc2 at COX.NET  Sat Apr 15 00:36:40 2006
From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:36:40 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement
In-Reply-To: <a9c007990604141626x1cc8a3a7jc1c7ccead227790a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2006.173640.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Yes please send it to us as a word doc.  it would be easier to read and 
post notes.

tlazcamati compaleh,


cuauhtlehcoc
www.mexicayotl.org

Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc wrote:
> David,
>  
> Could you send this as a Word doc. it will be easier to read.  Thanks.
>  
> Juan
>
>  
> On 4/14/06, *David Becraft* <david_becraft at hotmail.com 
> <mailto:david_becraft at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class
>     with Dr. Anne
>     Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and
>     critique it
>     at:
>     http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>
>
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From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Sat Apr 15 11:32:52 2006
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 07:32:52 -0400
Subject: Mexica Movement
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F26C5E95AFE6437674A77E68BC00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.APR.2006.073252.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I certainly agree with many points in your paper, but I also think your 
bibliography needs expansion, and the place to start would be with 
James Lockhart's big book, The Nahuas After the Conquest.

While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico, I have wondered about the 
single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
Aztecs.  Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other 
indigenous peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and 
down the west coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic groups 
resident in Florida, to cite but two examples, relate to a Mexica 
movement?

As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture 
complex also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people 
they don't recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh?

Also, it seems that you are equating "Mexican" and "Central American" 
in your paper, but most people use "Central America" to refer to the 
countries south of Mexico through Panama. The term 
"Meso-America"--while literally meaning the same thing--has been used 
for a long time to refer to the well-defined culture area ranging from 
northern Mexico through El Salvador and Nicaragua.  Within this ancient 
area, into which the Nahuah were late arrivals, there are many 
unrelated indigenous languages but many shared cultural features.

Frances Karttunen


On Apr 14, 2006, at 7:15 PM, David Becraft wrote:

> I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with 
> Dr. Anne Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and 
> critique it at:
> http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>


From rcs218 at PSU.EDU  Sat Apr 15 15:48:20 2006
From: rcs218 at PSU.EDU (ROBERT SCHWALLER)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:48:20 -0400
Subject: Mexica Movement
Message-ID: <SAT.15.APR.2006.114820.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I would have to agree with Dr. Karttunen. While I agree with your paper's
assertion that identity can be both imposed on an individual or a group or
constructed independently. The problem I see with the paper is that it fails to
recognize that even identities which may have been created by dominant elites
may in later times become modified and reapproproiated. The concept of a
mestizo identity is very interesting in this regard. During the colonial period
it was created by the Spanish to describe individuals of mixed Iberian and
indigenous descent. It did serve to distinguish these individuals from their
indigenous relatives. However, by the early 20th century, the intellectual
elite of Mexico had successfully reimagined the Mexican national identity as
being mestizo. Was this the same as the earlier Spanish colonial label? No,
obviously not, the major goal of this new mestizo identity was the valorization
of both European white culture AND native indigenous culture. Jose Vasconcelos
argued that Mexicans were "la raza cosmica" because of this unique blending of
culture and heritage.  Was this new mestizo identity hegemonic? Yes, the
intellectual and political elite of Mexico, many of mostly European descent,
chose to construct this identity in order to counter largely European
assertions that as a nation of mixed-race individuals Mexico was inherantly
weak. This new formulation of the Mexican mestizo nation has been rather
successful in insuring the continued survival of indigenous culture within the
nation, because without its connection to indigenous groups, their culture, and
their past there could be no indigenous element. For example INAH, Instituto
Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, focuses far more of its archaeological
time on indigenous sites than on colonial ones because of the importance that
indigenous culture plays for the continuation of a mestizo identity. What your
paper fails to realize in this is that the modern Mexican mestizo identity is
in fact a construction intended to counter European racism and discrimination.
While certainly it does not leave much room for individuals of entirely
indigenous descent it does acknowledge the cultural inheritance of indigenous
groups and has helped to improve their position within the Mexican nation and
consciousness. As anyother identity it is mutable an will change. Your paper
needs to recognize that even imposed identities may be reappropriated overtime.

Rob 

Robert Schwaller

Ph.D. Candidate
Penn State - Dept. of History
105 Weaver Bldg.
University Park PA, 16801


From micc2 at COX.NET  Sat Apr 15 18:36:38 2006
From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:36:38 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement
In-Reply-To: <7d86e6dbf77d86f707346e15b10a846e@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.APR.2006.113638.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I agree with Frances regarding the important issues she raises.  I have 
been involved in the Danza Azteca movement since its beginning in 1974. 
At that time we young Chicano college students wanted some tie to the 
indigenous cultures of Mexico.  Some of our carnales had deeply immersed 
themselves in the Lakota, Hopi, Chumash, Kumeyaay, and Dine cultures as 
a way to identify with their indigenous roots.  But most of these first 
nations did not have direct links to the indigenous heritage of Mexico 
(at least from A.D. 1325 on).  Also, many Chicanos who  were U.S. born 
and did not speak Spanish, felt a distance from the recent Spanish 
speaking immigrants.

Thus when la Danza Azteca arrived through the work of the danza elders 
Andres Segura and Florencio Yescas, we Chicanos quickly latched on to 
what appeared to be a living link to our indigenous roots as "Aztecas".  
Over time from murals, music, literature, theater, to political 
ideology, the "Azteca" image, and self-identity permeated Chicano 
culture, and spirituality.  Even the Catholic church, for centuries the 
ambivalent exterminator of precolumbian religion, readily accepted the 
"tonantzin"  identification of Guadalupe  (to better bring in the 
Mexican immigrants into the American fold).

 From the 1980's on, young Chicanos,  those that had maintained their 
contact with the sun dance, the  Native American Church, etc. began to 
politicize and take their version of "Aztecaness"  to the logical 
extreme. Using the name of the Culhua-Tenochca-Mexi'ca of Tenochtitlan 
as the ideological Ying for the Spanish Yang of Mexican identity, the 
Mexihca movement was born.

I truly believe that the Mexihca movement is a logical outcome of the 
American culture of  bipolar identity.  That is we against them, black 
against white, Christian against heathen, capitalist against communist 
(or whatever took its place), red state against blue state. Most of the 
followers of these bipolar allegiances leave absolutely no room for the 
vast middle ground (Please turn you AM dial to any talk show station for 
many sad examples).  It is a historic fact that, protestant 
millennialism, apocalyptic  writings, and  messianic  cults have deeply  
influences the  manifest destiny  mindset of the U.S. This is why after 
three decades of dealing with the most rabid of the follows of the MM I 
call them the Mexihca Nazis.  They hate anyone and anything that does 
not look act, or think like them.  If you question their beliefs, and 
you are a Mexican/Chicano/Latino/Hispanic/Mojado/Pollo.....etc. etc., 
you are automatically a sell out a traitor and an wannabe white 
person.... shades of Al-Qaeda!

I believe that the Mexihca movement is a logical continuation of this 
cultural phenomenon.  The inexperience  I have had with traditional 
people in the U.S.  and Mexico has  been one of  acceptance of 
diversity, respect for other value systems, and most importantly of all, 
an understanding that we are living in the modern world, not 1491.  The 
kind people I can call family in Second Mesa, Hopiland, Paguate Pueblo 
in Laguna, Tepecxictla in Veracruz, and many other traditional places, 
have never been as dogmatic, inflexible, and idealistic as the Mexihca 
movement followers I have dealt with these past 32 years.


/..."Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other indigenous 
peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and down the west 
coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic groups resident in 
Florida, to cite but two examples,* relate to a Mexica movement?"*.../

The answer is that they do not.  First of all if you ask a 
macehualtlahto if he or she is Mexihca, they will say "no I am a 
macehaulli"  The real Mexihca fades into mestizaje centuries ago.  True 
someone (like myself) who was born in Mexico City could lay claim to be 
a "true Mexihca" by birth.  But culturally,  Mexico-Tenochtitlan became 
a Spanish "city of palaces" by the late 1600's.  The last barrio of 
Mexihca people, that of San Jose de los Naturales, no longer exists.
The modern Nahuatl (as well as Mazahua, Otomi, Mixteco, Zapoteco, etc.) 
speakers of the city are immigrants from the rural states of Mexico.

/As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture 
complex also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people 
they don't recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh? /

Second of all, poetic, revisionist ideology aside, the modern indigenous 
people (yes including the Nahuatl speaking people of Michoacan, Hidalgo, 
Puebla, Veracruz, Guerrero, Jalisco, etc. etc.)  were the enemies and 
the victims of Mexihca imperialism.  So we do a double insult to these 
people by trying to cram them into the Mexihca movement's bipolar 
identity and political world view.

 Through my study of the Azteca dance tradition of which I have been a 
part of for its first 30 formative years, since its arrival in 1974 to 
today when we have the third generation of danzantes being born, I have 
come to realize that the "Azteca Dance tradition" is NOT Aztec at all!  
It is a beautiful evolution of Chichimeca, Otomi, Puhrepecha, 
Tlaxcalteca, Jonaz, and yes Nahua (not Meixihca) precolumbian traditions 
AND Spanish Catholicism, and African animism. That is why the 
traditional name for "la Danza Azteca" is more in keeping with reality:  
La danza Conchera, La danza Chichimeca, la danza de la conquista.  Of 
course there will be many MNs who will find offense with my epiphany of 
la danza./

While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico,* I have wondered about the 
single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
Aztecs.  */
/
/About 1989,  as part of my work with the Early Academic outreach 
Program at UCSD,  I went and gave a presentation to some Mixteco high 
school students in Fallbrook, CA.  There, they and their parents wrked 
in the avocado groves that have overrun the dry semi-desert moutnains of 
the area.  There was at that time  three prong ethinc strife at the 
local high school  Native Ameridcans from the local reservations against 
the Chicano/Mexicano students, and both these groups against the recent 
Mixteco immigrants who the Chicano students disparagingly called 
"Oaxacas".  A young Mexihca Nazi type was wroking with them, and I sat 
and listend to his presentation where he brow beat the Mixteco students 
for not following their "ancient Mexihca ways!"  He put down their 
language because it was not Nahuatl, and he told them that they need to 
follwo the teachings of s "traditonal Azteca Elder" who lived in L.A. 
and who knwe the secret and ancient wisdom that had been handed down 
from Cuautemoc. His cultural imerpialsim, lack of sensitivity to the 
immigrant youths struggles and their pride in the Mixteco culture was 
offensive.  He was more imperialistic and racist thatn the white 
studentss and staff of the high school that tormented the Mixteco kids 
on a daily basis./
/
One of the sad experiences I had in the summer Nahuatl Institute in 
Zacatecas ( an incredible learning experience I might add: 
www.idiez.org.mx ) was when I sat in to listen to the Macehual students 
from Veracruz, San Luis Potosi, and Hidalgo discuss their definitions 
for the upcoming Nahuatl dictionary for Nahuatl speakers.
When the definition of Macehual came up there was a discussion of who 
was a macehual (an indigenous person) and who was a coyomeh (non 
indigenous people)
one person said that a Macehual was a person born in Mexico who had 
indigenous blood. John Sullivan pointed to me and said I was born in "el 
D.F." and I obviously had indigenous blood, so way I a macehual?  The 
answer was a unanimous "axcana" ...no.  I and all Chicanos are Coyomeh,  
like whites, and blacks, and Asians,  because I did not speak an 
indigenous language from birth, did not live an indigenous life, and did 
not understand the indigenous world view that permeates the daily lives 
of the Macehualmeh.  I was devastated! I had been an "Azteca" dancer for 
32 years, studied Nahuatl language, thought, culture, medicine, food, 
music..... and yet I was not better than the man selling T-shirts 
outside the Super bowl... But the students went on to say that John and 
I, as well as the other students who where their for the summer course 
were "cualli coyomeh"  good outsiders.... and that was the key.  Coyomeh 
does not mean "white" or "hated evil white devil" as I have heard some 
Mexihca Nazis claim.  it simply means an outsider, one who does not 
belong to the local world view. Even an indigenous person can be a 
coyomeh.  as an example, a Maya from Palenque  is a coyomeh in 
Chicontepec, Veracruz. 

To fantasize that all indigenous people like and love each other, and 
live in a uotpoia, is to negate the human natuer of indigenous poeple 
and to put them on that same tired old bipolar  pedestal of  "noble savage"

Thus the new indigenous immigrant cannot  be  expected to jump in head 
first into a political and idealogical movement that  does not  reflect  
their culture back home,  claims to be the ONLY  TRUE path to 
self-determination, AND preaches hatred and imperialism.  On the 
contrary,  My experience has been that many recent immigrants look to 
the Catholic church, and and the ever growing Latino evangelical 
churches, for community, support and economic stability.

/"...The term "Meso-America"--while literally meaning the same 
thing--has been used for a long time to refer to the well-defined 
culture area ranging from northern Mexico through El Salvador and 
Nicaragua.  //Within this ancient area, into which the Nahuah were late 
arrivals, there are many unrelated indigenous languages but many shared 
cultural features./..."

I know several persons of Peruvian, Salvadoran, Guatemalteco, and 
Costarican heritage that call themselves Chicano. Some even practice the 
Azteca dance tradition can call it their "ancient heritage"  I believe 
that the many shared cultural features of modern Latin America, as 
evolving within the U.S. have created a modern "mesoamerica" identity.  
At the far left extreme are the Mexihca Nazis, who want to "take back 
their land" (never mind that it was not the white Mexican elite's land 
to give away, sell or lose in the first place.... it belonged to the 
indigenous nations that first Spain, then Mexico, and last the U.S. 
plundered and exterminated...).  They sit in the same penalty box that 
Al-Qaeda, the fundamentalist Jews, Christians, Hindus White/black/brown 
supremicists, etc. sit in.  Then on the extreme far right are the 
Hispanics.  They are the people who have "made it"  by their own 
"individual effort " (never mind the racism, and cultural genocide, and 
identity theft they had to endure).  They have arrived at the holy grail 
of "the American dream"... the middle class, that speaks without any 
"foreign accent"  They see "Hispanic" culture as something to roll out 
on cinco de Mayo, or Hispanic heritage month. They are not interested in 
indigenous thought, culture, identity or politics, because they (at 
least in their mind) have overcome, surpassed or left behind this rather 
frightening (due to its dark brown skin and black hair) identity in 
favor of the eminently marketable blond Shikira, J.L0 and Paulina Rubio.

It is in the great middle ground, where people of all colors, 
ethnicities, religions sexual preferences, and languages, create and 
evolve the dynamic realities of 21st century culture.  As poeple who are 
deeply interested in the legacy, development and survival of the 
"mesoamerican" indigenous people,  AND their cultural, spiritual and 
genetic link to the modern world,  we must keep in  mind that any 
extremist ideology, on the left or the right, ultimately leads to nihilism.




mario
www.mexicayotl.org
/I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality./


Frances Karttunen wrote:
> I certainly agree with many points in your paper, but I also think 
> your bibliography needs expansion, and the place to start would be 
> with James Lockhart's big book, The Nahuas After the Conquest.
>
> While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
> Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico, I have wondered about the 
> single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
> Aztecs.  Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other 
> indigenous peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and 
> down the west coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic 
> groups resident in Florida, to cite but two examples, relate to a 
> Mexica movement?
>
> As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
> appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture 
> complex also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people 
> they don't recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh?
>
> Also, it seems that you are equating "Mexican" and "Central American" 
> in your paper, but most people use "Central America" to refer to the 
> countries south of Mexico through Panama. The term 
> "Meso-America"--while literally meaning the same thing--has been used 
> for a long time to refer to the well-defined culture area ranging from 
> northern Mexico through El Salvador and Nicaragua.  Within this 
> ancient area, into which the Nahuah were late arrivals, there are many 
> unrelated indigenous languages but many shared cultural features.
>
> Frances Karttunen
>
>
> On Apr 14, 2006, at 7:15 PM, David Becraft wrote:
>
>> I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with 
>> Dr. Anne Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it 
>> and critique it at:
>> http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>>
>
>
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From micc2 at COX.NET  Sat Apr 15 18:58:39 2006
From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:58:39 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement
In-Reply-To: <200604151548.LAA07546@webmail16.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.APR.2006.115839.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

/..."What your paper fails to realize in this is that the modern Mexican mestizo identity is
in fact a construction intended to counter European racism and discrimination.
While certainly it does not leave much room for individuals of entirely
indigenous descent it does acknowledge the cultural inheritance of indigenous
groups and has helped to improve their position within the Mexican nation and
consciousness. As anyother identity it is mutable an will change..."/

Mestizo identity should be seen as  a broad continuum.  From genetically 
pure white European to Pure African, and indigenous bloods, what matters 
most is the CULTURAL life of the individual.  I have seen Lacandon 
people with Afros at the bus stop in Palenque, ruddy complected  
Huicholes selling arts in Zacatecas, and
dark skinned men passing out anti-immigrant leaflets at the local 
shopping mall.

The Spanish "castas" system is alive and well in some quarters.  Some 
idigenistas want to apply a BIA blood quantum to Chicano identity.  
Others want to subsume Chicano identity into the greater "Latino" 
pantheon.  Either choice is an ignorant approach. The reality of the 
21st century is that there are no indigenous peoples left in the world 
who are completely and totally free of outside contact.  And try and 
pray as we might,  indigenous cultures like all cultures are dynamic, 
ever-changing and not set in stone.  They were not before 1492, and will 
be even less so in the 21st century.

Those of us who are untested in helping indigenous people throughout the 
world maintain their culture, most do so not from a curator's point of 
view.  Nor from a
political strategist's.  We must do so because we value the  deep 
historical, linguistic, and spiritual  offerings that all indigenous 
cultures bring to our global  feasting table.

To lose these ancient and venerable traditions, would be a great loss.  
But to petrify them and demand that all  indigenous people submit to a 
"Hollywood"  or "noble savage" version of what it means to be indigenous 
would also be a crime.

What it means to be Chicano/Mexicano/indigenous in the U.S. will also 
change as the influence of Euro/Afro/Asian American culture interacts 
with our Chicano/Mexicano/indigenous traditions.  My children who were 
born into the Chicano indigenous world view ( as opposed to me walking 
into it at the age of 19 in 1974) are deeply proud of their culture, 
participate in our Azteca dance ritual calendar.... and enjoy pesto, 
Phó, hummus, kung pao chicken, Thai food, and hamburgers...... as well 
as their chilaquiles, tamales, pozole, chile nuevo Mexico, and guajolote 
on Thanksgiving.....

if we are what we eat.... most of us are mestizo....


mario



ROBERT SCHWALLER wrote:
> I would have to agree with Dr. Karttunen. While I agree with your paper's
> assertion that identity can be both imposed on an individual or a group or
> constructed independently. The problem I see with the paper is that it fails to
> recognize that even identities which may have been created by dominant elites
> may in later times become modified and reapproproiated. The concept of a
> mestizo identity is very interesting in this regard. During the colonial period
> it was created by the Spanish to describe individuals of mixed Iberian and
> indigenous descent. It did serve to distinguish these individuals from their
> indigenous relatives. However, by the early 20th century, the intellectual
> elite of Mexico had successfully reimagined the Mexican national identity as
> being mestizo. Was this the same as the earlier Spanish colonial label? No,
> obviously not, the major goal of this new mestizo identity was the valorization
> of both European white culture AND native indigenous culture. Jose Vasconcelos
> argued that Mexicans were "la raza cosmica" because of this unique blending of
> culture and heritage.  Was this new mestizo identity hegemonic? Yes, the
> intellectual and political elite of Mexico, many of mostly European descent,
> chose to construct this identity in order to counter largely European
> assertions that as a nation of mixed-race individuals Mexico was inherantly
> weak. This new formulation of the Mexican mestizo nation has been rather
> successful in insuring the continued survival of indigenous culture within the
> nation, because without its connection to indigenous groups, their culture, and
> their past there could be no indigenous element. For example INAH, Instituto
> Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, focuses far more of its archaeological
> time on indigenous sites than on colonial ones because of the importance that
> indigenous culture plays for the continuation of a mestizo identity. What your
> paper fails to realize in this is that the modern Mexican mestizo identity is
> in fact a construction intended to counter European racism and discrimination.
> While certainly it does not leave much room for individuals of entirely
> indigenous descent it does acknowledge the cultural inheritance of indigenous
> groups and has helped to improve their position within the Mexican nation and
> consciousness. As anyother identity it is mutable an will change. Your paper
> needs to recognize that even imposed identities may be reappropriated overtime.
>
> Rob 
>
> Robert Schwaller
>
> Ph.D. Candidate
> Penn State - Dept. of History
> 105 Weaver Bldg.
> University Park PA, 16801
>
>
>   
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From chelodona at argentina.com  Mon Apr 17 11:05:59 2006
From: chelodona at argentina.com (Marcelo Donadello)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 08:05:59 -0300
Subject: uno: mestizos - dos: literatura
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2006.080559.0300.>

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From david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr 17 22:38:45 2006
From: david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM (David Becraft)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:38:45 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement [karttunen]
In-Reply-To: <7d86e6dbf77d86f707346e15b10a846e@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2006.153845.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thank you for your comments.  I agree that this paper barely scratches at 
the issue of Indigenous identity, and while I emphasized and focused on the 
Mexica identity, I acknowledge that other non-mexica groups do not fall 
under this category.  The reason for this is obvious, by categorizing 
Indigenous people as Latin and Hispanic, a denial of their indigenous 
heritage is set forth.  In the same sense, categorizing non-mexica 
Aboriginies into a Mexica category would be to follow the same methods as 
the colonialist government of the U.S.A.
Indeed, the Otomangue, Maya and other ethnic groups that fall under the 
Latino and Hispanic label would also NOT fall under the Mexica label.  The 
emphasis on this paper is that Indigenous people colonized by the Spaniards 
are NOT Latino, and are NOT Hispanic, nor are they Mestizo [we are all 
mestizo]; there is no such thing as a "pure blood".

Thank you for you attention,

Pancho Becraft





>From: Frances Karttunen <karttu at NANTUCKET.NET>
>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
>Subject: Re: Mexica Movement
>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 07:32:52 -0400
>
>I certainly agree with many points in your paper, but I also think your 
>bibliography needs expansion, and the place to start would be with James 
>Lockhart's big book, The Nahuas After the Conquest.
>
>While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
>Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico, I have wondered about the 
>single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
>Aztecs.  Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other indigenous 
>peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and down the west 
>coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic groups resident in 
>Florida, to cite but two examples, relate to a Mexica movement?
>
>As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
>appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture complex 
>also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people they don't 
>recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh?
>
>Also, it seems that you are equating "Mexican" and "Central American" in 
>your paper, but most people use "Central America" to refer to the countries 
>south of Mexico through Panama. The term "Meso-America"--while literally 
>meaning the same thing--has been used for a long time to refer to the 
>well-defined culture area ranging from northern Mexico through El Salvador 
>and Nicaragua.  Within this ancient area, into which the Nahuah were late 
>arrivals, there are many unrelated indigenous languages but many shared 
>cultural features.
>
>Frances Karttunen
>
>
>On Apr 14, 2006, at 7:15 PM, David Becraft wrote:
>
>>I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with Dr. 
>>Anne Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and 
>>critique it at:
>>http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>>


From david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr 17 23:02:19 2006
From: david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM (David Becraft)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:02:19 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement [Schwaller]
In-Reply-To: <200604151548.LAA07546@webmail16.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2006.160219.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thank you for commenting on my paper.
I agree with you that identities can in the future become modified and 
reappropriated, this in a sense is what the Mexica Movement is doing.  It is 
taking people who have lost a knowledge of their indigenous identity 
[obviously as a result of colonialism] and reintroducing them to an identity 
that can rebuild their sense of worth as an indigenous person.  Many do not 
know whether they are Otomangue or Maya, or even Yuto-Nawa, yet people are 
adopting not only Mexica as an identity, but others as well.  Those who are 
adopting or "reappropriating" other indigenous identities,[Yaki, Raramuri, 
Pore'pecha, etc] many times do so as a result of the oral tradition or 
geographical location as to what indigenous group they "probably" descend 
from.
I disagree with you and JOSE VASCONCELOS though, Mestizo [latin for mixed] 
is a sociopolitical construct used by the elite to dominate the Indigenous 
population into "taking pride" in their "Spanish blood" while "taking shame" 
in their "Indigenous blood."  Europeans are also a Mixed [Mestizo] people, 
yet they are not viewed as a "Cosmic Race".  The race concept itself is a 
social construction with roots in early "American colonialsim".  Considering 
that "Mestizo" means mixed, a child of a Mixtec and Maya parents would also 
be considered Mestizo/Mixed.  Yet, under the sociopolitical construction of 
biological differences, this is never a matter of debate.
The majority of Indigenous people have not had Spanish "inter-marriage" or 
Spanish blood "raped" into them in the last 200 + years, hence [if one wants 
to follow a biological concept of race], so-called Mestizo's are not 
actually "mixed" anymore.

Thank you for your critique, I will take your considerations into account in 
the future, as well as Frances Karttunen's.

Sincerely,

Pancho Becraft


>From: ROBERT SCHWALLER <rcs218 at PSU.EDU>
>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
>Subject: Mexica Movement
>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:48:20 -0400
>
>I would have to agree with Dr. Karttunen. While I agree with your paper's
>assertion that identity can be both imposed on an individual or a group or
>constructed independently. The problem I see with the paper is that it 
>fails to
>recognize that even identities which may have been created by dominant 
>elites
>may in later times become modified and reapproproiated. The concept of a
>mestizo identity is very interesting in this regard. During the colonial 
>period
>it was created by the Spanish to describe individuals of mixed Iberian and
>indigenous descent. It did serve to distinguish these individuals from 
>their
>indigenous relatives. However, by the early 20th century, the intellectual
>elite of Mexico had successfully reimagined the Mexican national identity 
>as
>being mestizo. Was this the same as the earlier Spanish colonial label? No,
>obviously not, the major goal of this new mestizo identity was the 
>valorization
>of both European white culture AND native indigenous culture. Jose 
>Vasconcelos
>argued that Mexicans were "la raza cosmica" because of this unique blending 
>of
>culture and heritage.  Was this new mestizo identity hegemonic? Yes, the
>intellectual and political elite of Mexico, many of mostly European 
>descent,
>chose to construct this identity in order to counter largely European
>assertions that as a nation of mixed-race individuals Mexico was inherantly
>weak. This new formulation of the Mexican mestizo nation has been rather
>successful in insuring the continued survival of indigenous culture within 
>the
>nation, because without its connection to indigenous groups, their culture, 
>and
>their past there could be no indigenous element. For example INAH, 
>Instituto
>Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, focuses far more of its archaeological
>time on indigenous sites than on colonial ones because of the importance 
>that
>indigenous culture plays for the continuation of a mestizo identity. What 
>your
>paper fails to realize in this is that the modern Mexican mestizo identity 
>is
>in fact a construction intended to counter European racism and 
>discrimination.
>While certainly it does not leave much room for individuals of entirely
>indigenous descent it does acknowledge the cultural inheritance of 
>indigenous
>groups and has helped to improve their position within the Mexican nation 
>and
>consciousness. As anyother identity it is mutable an will change. Your 
>paper
>needs to recognize that even imposed identities may be reappropriated 
>overtime.
>
>Rob
>
>Robert Schwaller
>
>Ph.D. Candidate
>Penn State - Dept. of History
>105 Weaver Bldg.
>University Park PA, 16801


From david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr 17 23:26:09 2006
From: david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM (David Becraft)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:26:09 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement [Mario]
In-Reply-To: <44413D36.8000600@cox.net>
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2006.162609.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thank you also for your comments.

I do agree and commend you on your comments.  I think that within the 
framework of racism and bigotry, your comments are well placed and 
definitely point out the danger of being "single-minded"; something of which 
I hope in the future to avoid.  I do think though that the Indigenous people 
need to come out of the Hispanic and Latino labels and identify as being 
"macehualtin" or "cualli coyomeh"[to use your definitions].  The fact that 
you were labeled as Cualli Coyomeh does not deny your Indigenous heritage 
though, as does the Hispanic / Latino labeling; that in essence is the 
purpose of my paper.  I do hope to use these differing and helpful ideas and 
opinions to further my own personal understanding on this subject.

Thank for you insight,

Pancho Becraft


>From: micc2 <micc2 at COX.NET>
>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
>Subject: Re: Mexica Movement
>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:36:38 -0700
>
>I agree with Frances regarding the important issues she raises.  I have 
>been involved in the Danza Azteca movement since its beginning in 1974. At 
>that time we young Chicano college students wanted some tie to the 
>indigenous cultures of Mexico.  Some of our carnales had deeply immersed 
>themselves in the Lakota, Hopi, Chumash, Kumeyaay, and Dine cultures as a 
>way to identify with their indigenous roots.  But most of these first 
>nations did not have direct links to the indigenous heritage of Mexico (at 
>least from A.D. 1325 on).  Also, many Chicanos who  were U.S. born and did 
>not speak Spanish, felt a distance from the recent Spanish speaking 
>immigrants.
>
>Thus when la Danza Azteca arrived through the work of the danza elders 
>Andres Segura and Florencio Yescas, we Chicanos quickly latched on to what 
>appeared to be a living link to our indigenous roots as "Aztecas".  Over 
>time from murals, music, literature, theater, to political ideology, the 
>"Azteca" image, and self-identity permeated Chicano culture, and 
>spirituality.  Even the Catholic church, for centuries the ambivalent 
>exterminator of precolumbian religion, readily accepted the "tonantzin"  
>identification of Guadalupe  (to better bring in the Mexican immigrants 
>into the American fold).
>
>>From the 1980's on, young Chicanos,  those that had maintained their 
>contact with the sun dance, the  Native American Church, etc. began to 
>politicize and take their version of "Aztecaness"  to the logical extreme. 
>Using the name of the Culhua-Tenochca-Mexi'ca of Tenochtitlan as the 
>ideological Ying for the Spanish Yang of Mexican identity, the Mexihca 
>movement was born.
>
>I truly believe that the Mexihca movement is a logical outcome of the 
>American culture of  bipolar identity.  That is we against them, black 
>against white, Christian against heathen, capitalist against communist (or 
>whatever took its place), red state against blue state. Most of the 
>followers of these bipolar allegiances leave absolutely no room for the 
>vast middle ground (Please turn you AM dial to any talk show station for 
>many sad examples).  It is a historic fact that, protestant millennialism, 
>apocalyptic  writings, and  messianic  cults have deeply  influences the  
>manifest destiny  mindset of the U.S. This is why after three decades of 
>dealing with the most rabid of the follows of the MM I call them the 
>Mexihca Nazis.  They hate anyone and anything that does not look act, or 
>think like them.  If you question their beliefs, and you are a 
>Mexican/Chicano/Latino/Hispanic/Mojado/Pollo.....etc. etc., you are 
>automatically a sell out a traitor and an wannabe white person.... shades 
>of Al-Qaeda!
>
>I believe that the Mexihca movement is a logical continuation of this 
>cultural phenomenon.  The inexperience  I have had with traditional people 
>in the U.S.  and Mexico has  been one of  acceptance of diversity, respect 
>for other value systems, and most importantly of all, an understanding that 
>we are living in the modern world, not 1491.  The kind people I can call 
>family in Second Mesa, Hopiland, Paguate Pueblo in Laguna, Tepecxictla in 
>Veracruz, and many other traditional places, have never been as dogmatic, 
>inflexible, and idealistic as the Mexihca movement followers I have dealt 
>with these past 32 years.
>
>
>/..."Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other indigenous 
>peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and down the west 
>coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic groups resident in 
>Florida, to cite but two examples,* relate to a Mexica movement?"*.../
>
>The answer is that they do not.  First of all if you ask a macehualtlahto 
>if he or she is Mexihca, they will say "no I am a macehaulli"  The real 
>Mexihca fades into mestizaje centuries ago.  True someone (like myself) who 
>was born in Mexico City could lay claim to be a "true Mexihca" by birth.  
>But culturally,  Mexico-Tenochtitlan became a Spanish "city of palaces" by 
>the late 1600's.  The last barrio of Mexihca people, that of San Jose de 
>los Naturales, no longer exists.
>The modern Nahuatl (as well as Mazahua, Otomi, Mixteco, Zapoteco, etc.) 
>speakers of the city are immigrants from the rural states of Mexico.
>
>/As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
>appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture complex 
>also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people they don't 
>recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh? /
>
>Second of all, poetic, revisionist ideology aside, the modern indigenous 
>people (yes including the Nahuatl speaking people of Michoacan, Hidalgo, 
>Puebla, Veracruz, Guerrero, Jalisco, etc. etc.)  were the enemies and the 
>victims of Mexihca imperialism.  So we do a double insult to these people 
>by trying to cram them into the Mexihca movement's bipolar identity and 
>political world view.
>
>Through my study of the Azteca dance tradition of which I have been a part 
>of for its first 30 formative years, since its arrival in 1974 to today 
>when we have the third generation of danzantes being born, I have come to 
>realize that the "Azteca Dance tradition" is NOT Aztec at all!  It is a 
>beautiful evolution of Chichimeca, Otomi, Puhrepecha, Tlaxcalteca, Jonaz, 
>and yes Nahua (not Meixihca) precolumbian traditions AND Spanish 
>Catholicism, and African animism. That is why the traditional name for "la 
>Danza Azteca" is more in keeping with reality:  La danza Conchera, La danza 
>Chichimeca, la danza de la conquista.  Of course there will be many MNs who 
>will find offense with my epiphany of la danza./
>
>While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
>Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico,* I have wondered about the 
>single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
>Aztecs.  */
>/
>/About 1989,  as part of my work with the Early Academic outreach Program 
>at UCSD,  I went and gave a presentation to some Mixteco high school 
>students in Fallbrook, CA.  There, they and their parents wrked in the 
>avocado groves that have overrun the dry semi-desert moutnains of the area. 
>  There was at that time  three prong ethinc strife at the local high 
>school  Native Ameridcans from the local reservations against the 
>Chicano/Mexicano students, and both these groups against the recent Mixteco 
>immigrants who the Chicano students disparagingly called "Oaxacas".  A 
>young Mexihca Nazi type was wroking with them, and I sat and listend to his 
>presentation where he brow beat the Mixteco students for not following 
>their "ancient Mexihca ways!"  He put down their language because it was 
>not Nahuatl, and he told them that they need to follwo the teachings of s 
>"traditonal Azteca Elder" who lived in L.A. and who knwe the secret and 
>ancient wisdom that had been handed down from Cuautemoc. His cultural 
>imerpialsim, lack of sensitivity to the immigrant youths struggles and 
>their pride in the Mixteco culture was offensive.  He was more 
>imperialistic and racist thatn the white studentss and staff of the high 
>school that tormented the Mixteco kids on a daily basis./
>/
>One of the sad experiences I had in the summer Nahuatl Institute in 
>Zacatecas ( an incredible learning experience I might add: www.idiez.org.mx 
>) was when I sat in to listen to the Macehual students from Veracruz, San 
>Luis Potosi, and Hidalgo discuss their definitions for the upcoming Nahuatl 
>dictionary for Nahuatl speakers.
>When the definition of Macehual came up there was a discussion of who was a 
>macehual (an indigenous person) and who was a coyomeh (non indigenous 
>people)
>one person said that a Macehual was a person born in Mexico who had 
>indigenous blood. John Sullivan pointed to me and said I was born in "el 
>D.F." and I obviously had indigenous blood, so way I a macehual?  The 
>answer was a unanimous "axcana" ...no.  I and all Chicanos are Coyomeh,  
>like whites, and blacks, and Asians,  because I did not speak an indigenous 
>language from birth, did not live an indigenous life, and did not 
>understand the indigenous world view that permeates the daily lives of the 
>Macehualmeh.  I was devastated! I had been an "Azteca" dancer for 32 years, 
>studied Nahuatl language, thought, culture, medicine, food, music..... and 
>yet I was not better than the man selling T-shirts outside the Super 
>bowl... But the students went on to say that John and I, as well as the 
>other students who where their for the summer course were "cualli coyomeh"  
>good outsiders.... and that was the key.  Coyomeh does not mean "white" or 
>"hated evil white devil" as I have heard some Mexihca Nazis claim.  it 
>simply means an outsider, one who does not belong to the local world view. 
>Even an indigenous person can be a coyomeh.  as an example, a Maya from 
>Palenque  is a coyomeh in Chicontepec, Veracruz.
>
>To fantasize that all indigenous people like and love each other, and live 
>in a uotpoia, is to negate the human natuer of indigenous poeple and to put 
>them on that same tired old bipolar  pedestal of  "noble savage"
>
>Thus the new indigenous immigrant cannot  be  expected to jump in head 
>first into a political and idealogical movement that  does not  reflect  
>their culture back home,  claims to be the ONLY  TRUE path to 
>self-determination, AND preaches hatred and imperialism.  On the contrary,  
>My experience has been that many recent immigrants look to the Catholic 
>church, and and the ever growing Latino evangelical churches, for 
>community, support and economic stability.
>
>/"...The term "Meso-America"--while literally meaning the same thing--has 
>been used for a long time to refer to the well-defined culture area ranging 
>from northern Mexico through El Salvador and Nicaragua.  //Within this 
>ancient area, into which the Nahuah were late arrivals, there are many 
>unrelated indigenous languages but many shared cultural features./..."
>
>I know several persons of Peruvian, Salvadoran, Guatemalteco, and 
>Costarican heritage that call themselves Chicano. Some even practice the 
>Azteca dance tradition can call it their "ancient heritage"  I believe that 
>the many shared cultural features of modern Latin America, as evolving 
>within the U.S. have created a modern "mesoamerica" identity.  At the far 
>left extreme are the Mexihca Nazis, who want to "take back their land" 
>(never mind that it was not the white Mexican elite's land to give away, 
>sell or lose in the first place.... it belonged to the indigenous nations 
>that first Spain, then Mexico, and last the U.S. plundered and 
>exterminated...).  They sit in the same penalty box that Al-Qaeda, the 
>fundamentalist Jews, Christians, Hindus White/black/brown supremicists, 
>etc. sit in.  Then on the extreme far right are the Hispanics.  They are 
>the people who have "made it"  by their own "individual effort " (never 
>mind the racism, and cultural genocide, and identity theft they had to 
>endure).  They have arrived at the holy grail of "the American dream"... 
>the middle class, that speaks without any "foreign accent"  They see 
>"Hispanic" culture as something to roll out on cinco de Mayo, or Hispanic 
>heritage month. They are not interested in indigenous thought, culture, 
>identity or politics, because they (at least in their mind) have overcome, 
>surpassed or left behind this rather frightening (due to its dark brown 
>skin and black hair) identity in favor of the eminently marketable blond 
>Shikira, J.L0 and Paulina Rubio.
>
>It is in the great middle ground, where people of all colors, ethnicities, 
>religions sexual preferences, and languages, create and evolve the dynamic 
>realities of 21st century culture.  As poeple who are deeply interested in 
>the legacy, development and survival of the "mesoamerican" indigenous 
>people,  AND their cultural, spiritual and genetic link to the modern 
>world,  we must keep in  mind that any extremist ideology, on the left or 
>the right, ultimately leads to nihilism.
>
>
>
>
>mario
>www.mexicayotl.org
>/I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality./
>
>
>Frances Karttunen wrote:
>>I certainly agree with many points in your paper, but I also think your 
>>bibliography needs expansion, and the place to start would be with James 
>>Lockhart's big book, The Nahuas After the Conquest.
>>
>>While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
>>Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico, I have wondered about the 
>>single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
>>Aztecs.  Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other indigenous 
>>peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and down the west 
>>coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic groups resident in 
>>Florida, to cite but two examples, relate to a Mexica movement?
>>
>>As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
>>appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture complex 
>>also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people they don't 
>>recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh?
>>
>>Also, it seems that you are equating "Mexican" and "Central American" in 
>>your paper, but most people use "Central America" to refer to the 
>>countries south of Mexico through Panama. The term "Meso-America"--while 
>>literally meaning the same thing--has been used for a long time to refer 
>>to the well-defined culture area ranging from northern Mexico through El 
>>Salvador and Nicaragua.  Within this ancient area, into which the Nahuah 
>>were late arrivals, there are many unrelated indigenous languages but many 
>>shared cultural features.
>>
>>Frances Karttunen
>>
>>
>>On Apr 14, 2006, at 7:15 PM, David Becraft wrote:
>>
>>>I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with Dr. 
>>>Anne Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and 
>>>critique it at:
>>>http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>
>>


From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Apr 17 23:29:55 2006
From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (Jos=?ISO-8859-1?B?6SAg?=Rabasa)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:29:55 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement [Schwaller]
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F2974AD13D88E94466EA3828BC70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2006.162955.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Dear Pancho: You could not be clearer about Vasconcelos. I would add that he
is on record for thanking the Spaniards from curing the nation of the
"vices" of sodomy and cannibalism. We are certainly beyond the idealization
of mestizaje as a nationalist ideology. Suerte, Jose


On 4/17/06 4:02 PM, "David Becraft" <david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Thank you for commenting on my paper.
> I agree with you that identities can in the future become modified and
> reappropriated, this in a sense is what the Mexica Movement is doing.  It is
> taking people who have lost a knowledge of their indigenous identity
> [obviously as a result of colonialism] and reintroducing them to an identity
> that can rebuild their sense of worth as an indigenous person.  Many do not
> know whether they are Otomangue or Maya, or even Yuto-Nawa, yet people are
> adopting not only Mexica as an identity, but others as well.  Those who are
> adopting or "reappropriating" other indigenous identities,[Yaki, Raramuri,
> Pore'pecha, etc] many times do so as a result of the oral tradition or
> geographical location as to what indigenous group they "probably" descend
> from.
> I disagree with you and JOSE VASCONCELOS though, Mestizo [latin for mixed]
> is a sociopolitical construct used by the elite to dominate the Indigenous
> population into "taking pride" in their "Spanish blood" while "taking shame"
> in their "Indigenous blood."  Europeans are also a Mixed [Mestizo] people,
> yet they are not viewed as a "Cosmic Race".  The race concept itself is a
> social construction with roots in early "American colonialsim".  Considering
> that "Mestizo" means mixed, a child of a Mixtec and Maya parents would also
> be considered Mestizo/Mixed.  Yet, under the sociopolitical construction of
> biological differences, this is never a matter of debate.
> The majority of Indigenous people have not had Spanish "inter-marriage" or
> Spanish blood "raped" into them in the last 200 + years, hence [if one wants
> to follow a biological concept of race], so-called Mestizo's are not
> actually "mixed" anymore.
> 
> Thank you for your critique, I will take your considerations into account in
> the future, as well as Frances Karttunen's.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Pancho Becraft
> 
> 
>> From: ROBERT SCHWALLER <rcs218 at PSU.EDU>
>> Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
>> Subject: Mexica Movement
>> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:48:20 -0400
>> 
>> I would have to agree with Dr. Karttunen. While I agree with your paper's
>> assertion that identity can be both imposed on an individual or a group or
>> constructed independently. The problem I see with the paper is that it
>> fails to
>> recognize that even identities which may have been created by dominant
>> elites
>> may in later times become modified and reapproproiated. The concept of a
>> mestizo identity is very interesting in this regard. During the colonial
>> period
>> it was created by the Spanish to describe individuals of mixed Iberian and
>> indigenous descent. It did serve to distinguish these individuals from
>> their
>> indigenous relatives. However, by the early 20th century, the intellectual
>> elite of Mexico had successfully reimagined the Mexican national identity
>> as
>> being mestizo. Was this the same as the earlier Spanish colonial label? No,
>> obviously not, the major goal of this new mestizo identity was the
>> valorization
>> of both European white culture AND native indigenous culture. Jose
>> Vasconcelos
>> argued that Mexicans were "la raza cosmica" because of this unique blending
>> of
>> culture and heritage.  Was this new mestizo identity hegemonic? Yes, the
>> intellectual and political elite of Mexico, many of mostly European
>> descent,
>> chose to construct this identity in order to counter largely European
>> assertions that as a nation of mixed-race individuals Mexico was inherantly
>> weak. This new formulation of the Mexican mestizo nation has been rather
>> successful in insuring the continued survival of indigenous culture within
>> the
>> nation, because without its connection to indigenous groups, their culture,
>> and
>> their past there could be no indigenous element. For example INAH,
>> Instituto
>> Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, focuses far more of its archaeological
>> time on indigenous sites than on colonial ones because of the importance
>> that
>> indigenous culture plays for the continuation of a mestizo identity. What
>> your
>> paper fails to realize in this is that the modern Mexican mestizo identity
>> is
>> in fact a construction intended to counter European racism and
>> discrimination.
>> While certainly it does not leave much room for individuals of entirely
>> indigenous descent it does acknowledge the cultural inheritance of
>> indigenous
>> groups and has helped to improve their position within the Mexican nation
>> and
>> consciousness. As anyother identity it is mutable an will change. Your
>> paper
>> needs to recognize that even imposed identities may be reappropriated
>> overtime.
>> 
>> Rob
>> 
>> Robert Schwaller
>> 
>> Ph.D. Candidate
>> Penn State - Dept. of History
>> 105 Weaver Bldg.
>> University Park PA, 16801


From schwallr at morris.umn.edu  Tue Apr 18 13:40:49 2006
From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:40:49 -0500
Subject: Nahuat-l is moving
Message-ID: <TUE.18.APR.2006.084049.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Colleagues,

As I noted last week, Nahuat-l is moving.  Effective tomorrow our 
list will be hosted at FAMSI.  I am very pleased by the move and hope 
that it will be the last that the list has to make.

As a subscriber there is nothing that you need to do.  We will handle 
the transfer behind the scenes.  Starting tomorrow, to post to this 
list, send your email to:

   nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

General information about the mailing list is at:

   http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


For the next few months, messages sent to the lists.umn.edu address 
will automatically be forwarded to the new address, so if you forget, 
it should be OK.

John F. Schwaller
List owner



John F. Schwaller
President - elect
SUNY Potsdam

Until 6-30-06:
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at morris.umn.edu


From idiez at mac.com  Wed Apr 26 02:00:10 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (idiez at mac.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:00:10 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Nahuat-l] Indigenous identity
Message-ID: <TUE.25.APR.2006.210010.0500.>

Begin forwarded message:

> From: idiez at mac.com
> Date: April 25, 2006 8:59:02 PM CDT
> To: juan at papaqui.com
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Indigenous identity
>
> Juan,
> 	Cuando digo, "El problema es que la ideología nacional e individual 
> lo descuenta de antemano," quiero decir que cuando un individuo o un 
> vocero de la cultura o la política nacional dice, "Estoy/Estamos muy 
> orgullosos de nuestras raíces indígenas", en la mayoría de los casos 
> está emitiendo una frase que carece de sentido: primero, porque se 
> refiere exclusivamente a la cultura indígena del pasado, de la cual 
> probablemente sabe muy poco; y segundo, porque la frase no se refiere 
> en nada a los indígenas de hoy, quienes están excluidos por completo 
> de la vida nacional. Este tipo de discurso vacío trata el asunto de 
> manera superficial y abarcante, pero sin llegar al meollo del 
> problema, y de esta manera funciona para "descontarlo de antemano". Si 
> de veras en México nos interesa la cultura indígena, vamos a algo muy 
> concreto: por ejemplo, ¿por qué no promover la enseñanza de lenguas 
> indígenas en las escuelas de México?
> John
>
> John Sullivan, Ph.D.
> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
> Unidad Académica de Idiomas
> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
> Director
> Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
> Tacuba 152, int. 47
> Centro Histórico
> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
> México
> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
> Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985
> idiez at mac.com
> www.idiez.org.mx
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2006, at 7:50 PM, juan wrote:
>
>>
>> Claro que el mexicano no mesoamericano es una mezcla de culturas, 
>> pero en su nucleo abundan las ideas occidentales y no las 
>> mesoamericanas; como podriamos entender la no existencia de la 
>> propiedad privada los no mesoamericanos??? como pueden los 
>> mesoamericanos entender un tipo de vida que no sea comunitaria??? A 
>> esas diferencias me refiero. En el mundo mesoamericano privan ideas 
>> que no lo hacen en el occidental y viceversa. Ahora bien, respecto a 
>> las mexicaneidades, claro que hay muchas, dependiendo del espacio y 
>> el tiempo, pero si acaso podemos englobalarlas, me agrada mas la idea 
>> de hacerlo en esas dos partes, que dependen de las ideas primarias 
>> que conforman el contrato social que de otras formas.
>>
>> Por otro lado, es cierto que para entender a los mesoamericanos o a 
>> cualquier otro pueblo, lo mejor es entender su propia lengua; el 
>> pensamiento esta conformado y limitado por el lenguaje, esto tambien 
>> se ha demostrado; estoy de acuerdo en que un camino certero para 
>> llegar a ello es el estudio de la lengua y la cultura.
>>
>> No entiendo con precision a que se refiere el comentario de: "El 
>> problema es que la ideología nacional e individual lo descuenta de 
>> antemano."
>>
>> Finalmente, creo que no es esta la unica area donde falta 
>> investigacion y difusion, y tambien creo que en esta area seria 
>> maravilloso tenerla.
>>
>> Saludos
>>
>
>
John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Unidad Académica de Idiomas
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
Director
Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
México
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx
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From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com  Sun Apr 30 14:24:39 2006
From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 15:24:39 +0100
Subject: tlachtli and ullamaliztli...
Message-ID: <SUN.30.APR.2006.152439.0100.IAN.MURSELL@BTINTERNET.COM>

Dear Listeros,

Please could I seek your help?  I¹m expanding and updating a page on our
educational website about the Mesoamerican ballgame.  I¹ve got as far as I
can without knowing Náhuatl and am keen to clarify the precise
meanings/derivations of the words -

Tlachtli
Tlachco
Ullamaliztli

Forgive me if this topic has come up before.  I¹d just like very much to
sort out what the Aztecs would have called a) the game, b) the court and if
possible c) the ball!

Our ballgame page is at -

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=fac&id=215

Many thanks, as ever, and saludos,

Ian

Ian Mursell
Director
Mexicolore
28 Warriner Gardens
London SW11 4EB, U.K.
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643
www.mexicolore.co.uk
Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
info at mexicolore.co.uk

1980-2005: 25 years of bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and
museums throughout England.  Team visits, online teaching resources and
services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and much more - all
from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team' (British Museum
Education Service)


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From schwallr at morris.umn.edu  Tue Apr  4 14:55:31 2006
From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:55:31 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Hoitzitziltototl
Message-ID: <TUE.4.APR.2006.095531.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I received this inquiry directly from Prof. Corti.

I assume that this person is asking about 
huitziltototl or a hummingbird.  Is there some 
reason that the -tzi- would be reduplicated in the middle?



>From: Elio Corti <eliocorti at summagallicana.it>
>To: John F Schwaller <schwallr at morris.umn.edu>
>Subject: Hoitzitziltototl
>
>Dear Mr Schwaller,
>I do need, if possible, to identify a bird ? 
>Hoitzitziltototl ? about which is speaking 
>Bartolomeo Ambrosini in his Paralipomena 
>(additions) to the works of Ulisse Aldrovandi 
>(1522-1605) dealing with animals.
>
>Albrosini's Paralipomena were published in 1642 
>in Latin and in the chapter of American small 
>birds he writes that there are small 
>multicolored birds called by Amerindians 
>Hoitzitziltototl (the old text of this word is 
>not too much clear), and these birds could be 
>called by Europeans as "multicolored bird".


John F. Schwaller
President - elect
SUNY Potsdam

Until 6-30-06:
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at morris.umn.edu


From schwallr at morris.umn.edu  Tue Apr  4 19:51:55 2006
From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 14:51:55 -0500
Subject: Future for the list
Message-ID: <TUE.4.APR.2006.145155.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Colleagues,

As some of you have noticed, my signature line has changed.  I am in 
the process of leaving the University of Minnesota and moving to 
Potsdam, New York, where I am the President of SUNY Potsdam, and 
office I have now been serving for about 3 weeks.

I founded the list back in the late 1980's while I was at Florida 
Atlantic University, and it has moved around with me as I proceeded 
from job to job.  Potsdam's list software is not currently up to the 
standard that we all expect, and it will be a few months until new 
software is installed.  faced with that, and my history of moves, I 
decided to find a more permanent home for Nahuat-l.  FAMSI, the 
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. has 
graciously offered to host the list.  It also hosts the AZTLAN list 
on Mesoamerican archeology and cultural history, which focuses mostly 
on the Maya but includes all pre-Columbian cultures.

Over the next few days / weeks, we will be running tests on the new 
system.  You will not have to do anything immediately.  We will move 
all accounts from UMM to FAMSI.  Once the move is complete, in order 
to post a message you will use the new address rather than the 
@lists.umn.edu address.  But if you forget, that's OK, we'll have an 
automatic forward in place.

J. F. Schwaller
List owner



John F. Schwaller
President - elect
SUNY Potsdam

Until 6-30-06:
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at morris.umn.edu


From magnuspharao at GMAIL.COM  Thu Apr  6 02:19:03 2006
From: magnuspharao at GMAIL.COM (magnus hansen)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 20:19:03 -0600
Subject: Hoitzitziltototl
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060404095333.0427eca8@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.APR.2006.201903.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Here Hueyapan, Morelos the hummingbird is not known as witzilin as in
classical n?huatl but as witzitziki with a double -tzi. So maybe there are
other dialectal variants with doubled -tzi and absolute as well.
Magnus Pharao
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From teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Apr  6 16:32:36 2006
From: teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM (Steffen Haurholm-Larsen)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:32:36 +0000
Subject: from small bird to hummingbird
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060404095333.0427eca8@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.APR.2006.163236.0000.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hi,

Actually, Molina has the form which Mr. Corti is referring to.

Vitzitzilin. cierto paxarito. (f. 157v)

So there does not seem to have been a change in that word in the form of a 
reduplication, at least not between "classical" n?huatl and the modern 
Hueyapan dialect that Magnus is referring to.

best regards, Steffen H.-Larsen


>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at morris.umn.edu>
>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
>Subject: Fwd: Hoitzitziltototl
>Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:55:31 -0500
>
>I received this inquiry directly from Prof. Corti.
>
>I assume that this person is asking about huitziltototl or a hummingbird.  
>Is there some reason that the -tzi- would be reduplicated in the middle?
>
>
>
>>From: Elio Corti <eliocorti at summagallicana.it>
>>To: John F Schwaller <schwallr at morris.umn.edu>
>>Subject: Hoitzitziltototl
>>
>>Dear Mr Schwaller,
>>I do need, if possible, to identify a bird ? Hoitzitziltototl ? about 
>>which is speaking Bartolomeo Ambrosini in his Paralipomena (additions) to 
>>the works of Ulisse Aldrovandi (1522-1605) dealing with animals.
>>
>>Albrosini's Paralipomena were published in 1642 in Latin and in the 
>>chapter of American small birds he writes that there are small 
>>multicolored birds called by Amerindians Hoitzitziltototl (the old text of 
>>this word is not too much clear), and these birds could be called by 
>>Europeans as "multicolored bird".
>
>
>John F. Schwaller
>President - elect
>SUNY Potsdam
>
>Until 6-30-06:
>University of Minnesota, Morris
>600 E 4th Street
>Morris, MN  56267
>320-589-6015
>FAX 320-589-6399
>schwallr at morris.umn.edu

_________________________________________________________________
V?lg selv hvordan du vil kommunikere - skrift, tale, video eller billeder 
med MSN Messenger:  http://messenger.msn.dk/  - her kan du det hele


From ylouis at NJCU.EDU  Fri Apr  7 20:01:22 2006
From: ylouis at NJCU.EDU (ylouis)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:01:22 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl tutor NYC area
Message-ID: <FRI.7.APR.2006.160122.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Can anyone provide a lead to a Nahuatl tutor in the New York City larger metro 
area for beginning instruction?

Thanks much,
Yvette

Dr. Yvette Louis
Assistant Professor
New Jersey City University
YLouis at njcu.edu


From david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Apr 14 23:15:37 2006
From: david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM (David Becraft)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:15:37 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2006.161537.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with Dr. Anne 
Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and critique it 
at:
http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/


From floricanto3 at GMAIL.COM  Fri Apr 14 23:26:27 2006
From: floricanto3 at GMAIL.COM (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:26:27 -0500
Subject: Mexica Movement
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F26C5E95AFE6437674A77E68BC00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2006.182627.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

David,

Could you send this as a Word doc. it will be easier to read.  Thanks.

Juan


On 4/14/06, David Becraft <david_becraft at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with Dr.
> Anne
> Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and critique it
> at:
> http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>
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From micc2 at COX.NET  Sat Apr 15 00:36:40 2006
From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:36:40 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement
In-Reply-To: <a9c007990604141626x1cc8a3a7jc1c7ccead227790a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2006.173640.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Yes please send it to us as a word doc.  it would be easier to read and 
post notes.

tlazcamati compaleh,


cuauhtlehcoc
www.mexicayotl.org

Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc wrote:
> David,
>  
> Could you send this as a Word doc. it will be easier to read.  Thanks.
>  
> Juan
>
>  
> On 4/14/06, *David Becraft* <david_becraft at hotmail.com 
> <mailto:david_becraft at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class
>     with Dr. Anne
>     Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and
>     critique it
>     at:
>     http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>
>
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From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Sat Apr 15 11:32:52 2006
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 07:32:52 -0400
Subject: Mexica Movement
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F26C5E95AFE6437674A77E68BC00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.APR.2006.073252.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I certainly agree with many points in your paper, but I also think your 
bibliography needs expansion, and the place to start would be with 
James Lockhart's big book, The Nahuas After the Conquest.

While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico, I have wondered about the 
single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
Aztecs.  Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other 
indigenous peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and 
down the west coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic groups 
resident in Florida, to cite but two examples, relate to a Mexica 
movement?

As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture 
complex also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people 
they don't recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh?

Also, it seems that you are equating "Mexican" and "Central American" 
in your paper, but most people use "Central America" to refer to the 
countries south of Mexico through Panama. The term 
"Meso-America"--while literally meaning the same thing--has been used 
for a long time to refer to the well-defined culture area ranging from 
northern Mexico through El Salvador and Nicaragua.  Within this ancient 
area, into which the Nahuah were late arrivals, there are many 
unrelated indigenous languages but many shared cultural features.

Frances Karttunen


On Apr 14, 2006, at 7:15 PM, David Becraft wrote:

> I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with 
> Dr. Anne Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and 
> critique it at:
> http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>


From rcs218 at PSU.EDU  Sat Apr 15 15:48:20 2006
From: rcs218 at PSU.EDU (ROBERT SCHWALLER)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:48:20 -0400
Subject: Mexica Movement
Message-ID: <SAT.15.APR.2006.114820.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I would have to agree with Dr. Karttunen. While I agree with your paper's
assertion that identity can be both imposed on an individual or a group or
constructed independently. The problem I see with the paper is that it fails to
recognize that even identities which may have been created by dominant elites
may in later times become modified and reapproproiated. The concept of a
mestizo identity is very interesting in this regard. During the colonial period
it was created by the Spanish to describe individuals of mixed Iberian and
indigenous descent. It did serve to distinguish these individuals from their
indigenous relatives. However, by the early 20th century, the intellectual
elite of Mexico had successfully reimagined the Mexican national identity as
being mestizo. Was this the same as the earlier Spanish colonial label? No,
obviously not, the major goal of this new mestizo identity was the valorization
of both European white culture AND native indigenous culture. Jose Vasconcelos
argued that Mexicans were "la raza cosmica" because of this unique blending of
culture and heritage.  Was this new mestizo identity hegemonic? Yes, the
intellectual and political elite of Mexico, many of mostly European descent,
chose to construct this identity in order to counter largely European
assertions that as a nation of mixed-race individuals Mexico was inherantly
weak. This new formulation of the Mexican mestizo nation has been rather
successful in insuring the continued survival of indigenous culture within the
nation, because without its connection to indigenous groups, their culture, and
their past there could be no indigenous element. For example INAH, Instituto
Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, focuses far more of its archaeological
time on indigenous sites than on colonial ones because of the importance that
indigenous culture plays for the continuation of a mestizo identity. What your
paper fails to realize in this is that the modern Mexican mestizo identity is
in fact a construction intended to counter European racism and discrimination.
While certainly it does not leave much room for individuals of entirely
indigenous descent it does acknowledge the cultural inheritance of indigenous
groups and has helped to improve their position within the Mexican nation and
consciousness. As anyother identity it is mutable an will change. Your paper
needs to recognize that even imposed identities may be reappropriated overtime.

Rob 

Robert Schwaller

Ph.D. Candidate
Penn State - Dept. of History
105 Weaver Bldg.
University Park PA, 16801


From micc2 at COX.NET  Sat Apr 15 18:36:38 2006
From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:36:38 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement
In-Reply-To: <7d86e6dbf77d86f707346e15b10a846e@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.APR.2006.113638.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I agree with Frances regarding the important issues she raises.  I have 
been involved in the Danza Azteca movement since its beginning in 1974. 
At that time we young Chicano college students wanted some tie to the 
indigenous cultures of Mexico.  Some of our carnales had deeply immersed 
themselves in the Lakota, Hopi, Chumash, Kumeyaay, and Dine cultures as 
a way to identify with their indigenous roots.  But most of these first 
nations did not have direct links to the indigenous heritage of Mexico 
(at least from A.D. 1325 on).  Also, many Chicanos who  were U.S. born 
and did not speak Spanish, felt a distance from the recent Spanish 
speaking immigrants.

Thus when la Danza Azteca arrived through the work of the danza elders 
Andres Segura and Florencio Yescas, we Chicanos quickly latched on to 
what appeared to be a living link to our indigenous roots as "Aztecas".  
Over time from murals, music, literature, theater, to political 
ideology, the "Azteca" image, and self-identity permeated Chicano 
culture, and spirituality.  Even the Catholic church, for centuries the 
ambivalent exterminator of precolumbian religion, readily accepted the 
"tonantzin"  identification of Guadalupe  (to better bring in the 
Mexican immigrants into the American fold).

 From the 1980's on, young Chicanos,  those that had maintained their 
contact with the sun dance, the  Native American Church, etc. began to 
politicize and take their version of "Aztecaness"  to the logical 
extreme. Using the name of the Culhua-Tenochca-Mexi'ca of Tenochtitlan 
as the ideological Ying for the Spanish Yang of Mexican identity, the 
Mexihca movement was born.

I truly believe that the Mexihca movement is a logical outcome of the 
American culture of  bipolar identity.  That is we against them, black 
against white, Christian against heathen, capitalist against communist 
(or whatever took its place), red state against blue state. Most of the 
followers of these bipolar allegiances leave absolutely no room for the 
vast middle ground (Please turn you AM dial to any talk show station for 
many sad examples).  It is a historic fact that, protestant 
millennialism, apocalyptic  writings, and  messianic  cults have deeply  
influences the  manifest destiny  mindset of the U.S. This is why after 
three decades of dealing with the most rabid of the follows of the MM I 
call them the Mexihca Nazis.  They hate anyone and anything that does 
not look act, or think like them.  If you question their beliefs, and 
you are a Mexican/Chicano/Latino/Hispanic/Mojado/Pollo.....etc. etc., 
you are automatically a sell out a traitor and an wannabe white 
person.... shades of Al-Qaeda!

I believe that the Mexihca movement is a logical continuation of this 
cultural phenomenon.  The inexperience  I have had with traditional 
people in the U.S.  and Mexico has  been one of  acceptance of 
diversity, respect for other value systems, and most importantly of all, 
an understanding that we are living in the modern world, not 1491.  The 
kind people I can call family in Second Mesa, Hopiland, Paguate Pueblo 
in Laguna, Tepecxictla in Veracruz, and many other traditional places, 
have never been as dogmatic, inflexible, and idealistic as the Mexihca 
movement followers I have dealt with these past 32 years.


/..."Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other indigenous 
peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and down the west 
coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic groups resident in 
Florida, to cite but two examples,* relate to a Mexica movement?"*.../

The answer is that they do not.  First of all if you ask a 
macehualtlahto if he or she is Mexihca, they will say "no I am a 
macehaulli"  The real Mexihca fades into mestizaje centuries ago.  True 
someone (like myself) who was born in Mexico City could lay claim to be 
a "true Mexihca" by birth.  But culturally,  Mexico-Tenochtitlan became 
a Spanish "city of palaces" by the late 1600's.  The last barrio of 
Mexihca people, that of San Jose de los Naturales, no longer exists.
The modern Nahuatl (as well as Mazahua, Otomi, Mixteco, Zapoteco, etc.) 
speakers of the city are immigrants from the rural states of Mexico.

/As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture 
complex also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people 
they don't recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh? /

Second of all, poetic, revisionist ideology aside, the modern indigenous 
people (yes including the Nahuatl speaking people of Michoacan, Hidalgo, 
Puebla, Veracruz, Guerrero, Jalisco, etc. etc.)  were the enemies and 
the victims of Mexihca imperialism.  So we do a double insult to these 
people by trying to cram them into the Mexihca movement's bipolar 
identity and political world view.

 Through my study of the Azteca dance tradition of which I have been a 
part of for its first 30 formative years, since its arrival in 1974 to 
today when we have the third generation of danzantes being born, I have 
come to realize that the "Azteca Dance tradition" is NOT Aztec at all!  
It is a beautiful evolution of Chichimeca, Otomi, Puhrepecha, 
Tlaxcalteca, Jonaz, and yes Nahua (not Meixihca) precolumbian traditions 
AND Spanish Catholicism, and African animism. That is why the 
traditional name for "la Danza Azteca" is more in keeping with reality:  
La danza Conchera, La danza Chichimeca, la danza de la conquista.  Of 
course there will be many MNs who will find offense with my epiphany of 
la danza./

While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico,* I have wondered about the 
single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
Aztecs.  */
/
/About 1989,  as part of my work with the Early Academic outreach 
Program at UCSD,  I went and gave a presentation to some Mixteco high 
school students in Fallbrook, CA.  There, they and their parents wrked 
in the avocado groves that have overrun the dry semi-desert moutnains of 
the area.  There was at that time  three prong ethinc strife at the 
local high school  Native Ameridcans from the local reservations against 
the Chicano/Mexicano students, and both these groups against the recent 
Mixteco immigrants who the Chicano students disparagingly called 
"Oaxacas".  A young Mexihca Nazi type was wroking with them, and I sat 
and listend to his presentation where he brow beat the Mixteco students 
for not following their "ancient Mexihca ways!"  He put down their 
language because it was not Nahuatl, and he told them that they need to 
follwo the teachings of s "traditonal Azteca Elder" who lived in L.A. 
and who knwe the secret and ancient wisdom that had been handed down 
from Cuautemoc. His cultural imerpialsim, lack of sensitivity to the 
immigrant youths struggles and their pride in the Mixteco culture was 
offensive.  He was more imperialistic and racist thatn the white 
studentss and staff of the high school that tormented the Mixteco kids 
on a daily basis./
/
One of the sad experiences I had in the summer Nahuatl Institute in 
Zacatecas ( an incredible learning experience I might add: 
www.idiez.org.mx ) was when I sat in to listen to the Macehual students 
from Veracruz, San Luis Potosi, and Hidalgo discuss their definitions 
for the upcoming Nahuatl dictionary for Nahuatl speakers.
When the definition of Macehual came up there was a discussion of who 
was a macehual (an indigenous person) and who was a coyomeh (non 
indigenous people)
one person said that a Macehual was a person born in Mexico who had 
indigenous blood. John Sullivan pointed to me and said I was born in "el 
D.F." and I obviously had indigenous blood, so way I a macehual?  The 
answer was a unanimous "axcana" ...no.  I and all Chicanos are Coyomeh,  
like whites, and blacks, and Asians,  because I did not speak an 
indigenous language from birth, did not live an indigenous life, and did 
not understand the indigenous world view that permeates the daily lives 
of the Macehualmeh.  I was devastated! I had been an "Azteca" dancer for 
32 years, studied Nahuatl language, thought, culture, medicine, food, 
music..... and yet I was not better than the man selling T-shirts 
outside the Super bowl... But the students went on to say that John and 
I, as well as the other students who where their for the summer course 
were "cualli coyomeh"  good outsiders.... and that was the key.  Coyomeh 
does not mean "white" or "hated evil white devil" as I have heard some 
Mexihca Nazis claim.  it simply means an outsider, one who does not 
belong to the local world view. Even an indigenous person can be a 
coyomeh.  as an example, a Maya from Palenque  is a coyomeh in 
Chicontepec, Veracruz. 

To fantasize that all indigenous people like and love each other, and 
live in a uotpoia, is to negate the human natuer of indigenous poeple 
and to put them on that same tired old bipolar  pedestal of  "noble savage"

Thus the new indigenous immigrant cannot  be  expected to jump in head 
first into a political and idealogical movement that  does not  reflect  
their culture back home,  claims to be the ONLY  TRUE path to 
self-determination, AND preaches hatred and imperialism.  On the 
contrary,  My experience has been that many recent immigrants look to 
the Catholic church, and and the ever growing Latino evangelical 
churches, for community, support and economic stability.

/"...The term "Meso-America"--while literally meaning the same 
thing--has been used for a long time to refer to the well-defined 
culture area ranging from northern Mexico through El Salvador and 
Nicaragua.  //Within this ancient area, into which the Nahuah were late 
arrivals, there are many unrelated indigenous languages but many shared 
cultural features./..."

I know several persons of Peruvian, Salvadoran, Guatemalteco, and 
Costarican heritage that call themselves Chicano. Some even practice the 
Azteca dance tradition can call it their "ancient heritage"  I believe 
that the many shared cultural features of modern Latin America, as 
evolving within the U.S. have created a modern "mesoamerica" identity.  
At the far left extreme are the Mexihca Nazis, who want to "take back 
their land" (never mind that it was not the white Mexican elite's land 
to give away, sell or lose in the first place.... it belonged to the 
indigenous nations that first Spain, then Mexico, and last the U.S. 
plundered and exterminated...).  They sit in the same penalty box that 
Al-Qaeda, the fundamentalist Jews, Christians, Hindus White/black/brown 
supremicists, etc. sit in.  Then on the extreme far right are the 
Hispanics.  They are the people who have "made it"  by their own 
"individual effort " (never mind the racism, and cultural genocide, and 
identity theft they had to endure).  They have arrived at the holy grail 
of "the American dream"... the middle class, that speaks without any 
"foreign accent"  They see "Hispanic" culture as something to roll out 
on cinco de Mayo, or Hispanic heritage month. They are not interested in 
indigenous thought, culture, identity or politics, because they (at 
least in their mind) have overcome, surpassed or left behind this rather 
frightening (due to its dark brown skin and black hair) identity in 
favor of the eminently marketable blond Shikira, J.L0 and Paulina Rubio.

It is in the great middle ground, where people of all colors, 
ethnicities, religions sexual preferences, and languages, create and 
evolve the dynamic realities of 21st century culture.  As poeple who are 
deeply interested in the legacy, development and survival of the 
"mesoamerican" indigenous people,  AND their cultural, spiritual and 
genetic link to the modern world,  we must keep in  mind that any 
extremist ideology, on the left or the right, ultimately leads to nihilism.




mario
www.mexicayotl.org
/I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality./


Frances Karttunen wrote:
> I certainly agree with many points in your paper, but I also think 
> your bibliography needs expansion, and the place to start would be 
> with James Lockhart's big book, The Nahuas After the Conquest.
>
> While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
> Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico, I have wondered about the 
> single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
> Aztecs.  Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other 
> indigenous peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and 
> down the west coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic 
> groups resident in Florida, to cite but two examples, relate to a 
> Mexica movement?
>
> As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
> appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture 
> complex also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people 
> they don't recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh?
>
> Also, it seems that you are equating "Mexican" and "Central American" 
> in your paper, but most people use "Central America" to refer to the 
> countries south of Mexico through Panama. The term 
> "Meso-America"--while literally meaning the same thing--has been used 
> for a long time to refer to the well-defined culture area ranging from 
> northern Mexico through El Salvador and Nicaragua.  Within this 
> ancient area, into which the Nahuah were late arrivals, there are many 
> unrelated indigenous languages but many shared cultural features.
>
> Frances Karttunen
>
>
> On Apr 14, 2006, at 7:15 PM, David Becraft wrote:
>
>> I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with 
>> Dr. Anne Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it 
>> and critique it at:
>> http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>>
>
>
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From micc2 at COX.NET  Sat Apr 15 18:58:39 2006
From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:58:39 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement
In-Reply-To: <200604151548.LAA07546@webmail16.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.APR.2006.115839.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

/..."What your paper fails to realize in this is that the modern Mexican mestizo identity is
in fact a construction intended to counter European racism and discrimination.
While certainly it does not leave much room for individuals of entirely
indigenous descent it does acknowledge the cultural inheritance of indigenous
groups and has helped to improve their position within the Mexican nation and
consciousness. As anyother identity it is mutable an will change..."/

Mestizo identity should be seen as  a broad continuum.  From genetically 
pure white European to Pure African, and indigenous bloods, what matters 
most is the CULTURAL life of the individual.  I have seen Lacandon 
people with Afros at the bus stop in Palenque, ruddy complected  
Huicholes selling arts in Zacatecas, and
dark skinned men passing out anti-immigrant leaflets at the local 
shopping mall.

The Spanish "castas" system is alive and well in some quarters.  Some 
idigenistas want to apply a BIA blood quantum to Chicano identity.  
Others want to subsume Chicano identity into the greater "Latino" 
pantheon.  Either choice is an ignorant approach. The reality of the 
21st century is that there are no indigenous peoples left in the world 
who are completely and totally free of outside contact.  And try and 
pray as we might,  indigenous cultures like all cultures are dynamic, 
ever-changing and not set in stone.  They were not before 1492, and will 
be even less so in the 21st century.

Those of us who are untested in helping indigenous people throughout the 
world maintain their culture, most do so not from a curator's point of 
view.  Nor from a
political strategist's.  We must do so because we value the  deep 
historical, linguistic, and spiritual  offerings that all indigenous 
cultures bring to our global  feasting table.

To lose these ancient and venerable traditions, would be a great loss.  
But to petrify them and demand that all  indigenous people submit to a 
"Hollywood"  or "noble savage" version of what it means to be indigenous 
would also be a crime.

What it means to be Chicano/Mexicano/indigenous in the U.S. will also 
change as the influence of Euro/Afro/Asian American culture interacts 
with our Chicano/Mexicano/indigenous traditions.  My children who were 
born into the Chicano indigenous world view ( as opposed to me walking 
into it at the age of 19 in 1974) are deeply proud of their culture, 
participate in our Azteca dance ritual calendar.... and enjoy pesto, 
Ph?, hummus, kung pao chicken, Thai food, and hamburgers...... as well 
as their chilaquiles, tamales, pozole, chile nuevo Mexico, and guajolote 
on Thanksgiving.....

if we are what we eat.... most of us are mestizo....


mario



ROBERT SCHWALLER wrote:
> I would have to agree with Dr. Karttunen. While I agree with your paper's
> assertion that identity can be both imposed on an individual or a group or
> constructed independently. The problem I see with the paper is that it fails to
> recognize that even identities which may have been created by dominant elites
> may in later times become modified and reapproproiated. The concept of a
> mestizo identity is very interesting in this regard. During the colonial period
> it was created by the Spanish to describe individuals of mixed Iberian and
> indigenous descent. It did serve to distinguish these individuals from their
> indigenous relatives. However, by the early 20th century, the intellectual
> elite of Mexico had successfully reimagined the Mexican national identity as
> being mestizo. Was this the same as the earlier Spanish colonial label? No,
> obviously not, the major goal of this new mestizo identity was the valorization
> of both European white culture AND native indigenous culture. Jose Vasconcelos
> argued that Mexicans were "la raza cosmica" because of this unique blending of
> culture and heritage.  Was this new mestizo identity hegemonic? Yes, the
> intellectual and political elite of Mexico, many of mostly European descent,
> chose to construct this identity in order to counter largely European
> assertions that as a nation of mixed-race individuals Mexico was inherantly
> weak. This new formulation of the Mexican mestizo nation has been rather
> successful in insuring the continued survival of indigenous culture within the
> nation, because without its connection to indigenous groups, their culture, and
> their past there could be no indigenous element. For example INAH, Instituto
> Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, focuses far more of its archaeological
> time on indigenous sites than on colonial ones because of the importance that
> indigenous culture plays for the continuation of a mestizo identity. What your
> paper fails to realize in this is that the modern Mexican mestizo identity is
> in fact a construction intended to counter European racism and discrimination.
> While certainly it does not leave much room for individuals of entirely
> indigenous descent it does acknowledge the cultural inheritance of indigenous
> groups and has helped to improve their position within the Mexican nation and
> consciousness. As anyother identity it is mutable an will change. Your paper
> needs to recognize that even imposed identities may be reappropriated overtime.
>
> Rob 
>
> Robert Schwaller
>
> Ph.D. Candidate
> Penn State - Dept. of History
> 105 Weaver Bldg.
> University Park PA, 16801
>
>
>   
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From chelodona at argentina.com  Mon Apr 17 11:05:59 2006
From: chelodona at argentina.com (Marcelo Donadello)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 08:05:59 -0300
Subject: uno: mestizos - dos: literatura
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2006.080559.0300.>

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From david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr 17 22:38:45 2006
From: david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM (David Becraft)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:38:45 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement [karttunen]
In-Reply-To: <7d86e6dbf77d86f707346e15b10a846e@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2006.153845.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thank you for your comments.  I agree that this paper barely scratches at 
the issue of Indigenous identity, and while I emphasized and focused on the 
Mexica identity, I acknowledge that other non-mexica groups do not fall 
under this category.  The reason for this is obvious, by categorizing 
Indigenous people as Latin and Hispanic, a denial of their indigenous 
heritage is set forth.  In the same sense, categorizing non-mexica 
Aboriginies into a Mexica category would be to follow the same methods as 
the colonialist government of the U.S.A.
Indeed, the Otomangue, Maya and other ethnic groups that fall under the 
Latino and Hispanic label would also NOT fall under the Mexica label.  The 
emphasis on this paper is that Indigenous people colonized by the Spaniards 
are NOT Latino, and are NOT Hispanic, nor are they Mestizo [we are all 
mestizo]; there is no such thing as a "pure blood".

Thank you for you attention,

Pancho Becraft





>From: Frances Karttunen <karttu at NANTUCKET.NET>
>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
>Subject: Re: Mexica Movement
>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 07:32:52 -0400
>
>I certainly agree with many points in your paper, but I also think your 
>bibliography needs expansion, and the place to start would be with James 
>Lockhart's big book, The Nahuas After the Conquest.
>
>While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
>Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico, I have wondered about the 
>single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
>Aztecs.  Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other indigenous 
>peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and down the west 
>coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic groups resident in 
>Florida, to cite but two examples, relate to a Mexica movement?
>
>As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
>appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture complex 
>also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people they don't 
>recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh?
>
>Also, it seems that you are equating "Mexican" and "Central American" in 
>your paper, but most people use "Central America" to refer to the countries 
>south of Mexico through Panama. The term "Meso-America"--while literally 
>meaning the same thing--has been used for a long time to refer to the 
>well-defined culture area ranging from northern Mexico through El Salvador 
>and Nicaragua.  Within this ancient area, into which the Nahuah were late 
>arrivals, there are many unrelated indigenous languages but many shared 
>cultural features.
>
>Frances Karttunen
>
>
>On Apr 14, 2006, at 7:15 PM, David Becraft wrote:
>
>>I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with Dr. 
>>Anne Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and 
>>critique it at:
>>http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>>


From david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr 17 23:02:19 2006
From: david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM (David Becraft)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:02:19 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement [Schwaller]
In-Reply-To: <200604151548.LAA07546@webmail16.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2006.160219.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thank you for commenting on my paper.
I agree with you that identities can in the future become modified and 
reappropriated, this in a sense is what the Mexica Movement is doing.  It is 
taking people who have lost a knowledge of their indigenous identity 
[obviously as a result of colonialism] and reintroducing them to an identity 
that can rebuild their sense of worth as an indigenous person.  Many do not 
know whether they are Otomangue or Maya, or even Yuto-Nawa, yet people are 
adopting not only Mexica as an identity, but others as well.  Those who are 
adopting or "reappropriating" other indigenous identities,[Yaki, Raramuri, 
Pore'pecha, etc] many times do so as a result of the oral tradition or 
geographical location as to what indigenous group they "probably" descend 
from.
I disagree with you and JOSE VASCONCELOS though, Mestizo [latin for mixed] 
is a sociopolitical construct used by the elite to dominate the Indigenous 
population into "taking pride" in their "Spanish blood" while "taking shame" 
in their "Indigenous blood."  Europeans are also a Mixed [Mestizo] people, 
yet they are not viewed as a "Cosmic Race".  The race concept itself is a 
social construction with roots in early "American colonialsim".  Considering 
that "Mestizo" means mixed, a child of a Mixtec and Maya parents would also 
be considered Mestizo/Mixed.  Yet, under the sociopolitical construction of 
biological differences, this is never a matter of debate.
The majority of Indigenous people have not had Spanish "inter-marriage" or 
Spanish blood "raped" into them in the last 200 + years, hence [if one wants 
to follow a biological concept of race], so-called Mestizo's are not 
actually "mixed" anymore.

Thank you for your critique, I will take your considerations into account in 
the future, as well as Frances Karttunen's.

Sincerely,

Pancho Becraft


>From: ROBERT SCHWALLER <rcs218 at PSU.EDU>
>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
>Subject: Mexica Movement
>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:48:20 -0400
>
>I would have to agree with Dr. Karttunen. While I agree with your paper's
>assertion that identity can be both imposed on an individual or a group or
>constructed independently. The problem I see with the paper is that it 
>fails to
>recognize that even identities which may have been created by dominant 
>elites
>may in later times become modified and reapproproiated. The concept of a
>mestizo identity is very interesting in this regard. During the colonial 
>period
>it was created by the Spanish to describe individuals of mixed Iberian and
>indigenous descent. It did serve to distinguish these individuals from 
>their
>indigenous relatives. However, by the early 20th century, the intellectual
>elite of Mexico had successfully reimagined the Mexican national identity 
>as
>being mestizo. Was this the same as the earlier Spanish colonial label? No,
>obviously not, the major goal of this new mestizo identity was the 
>valorization
>of both European white culture AND native indigenous culture. Jose 
>Vasconcelos
>argued that Mexicans were "la raza cosmica" because of this unique blending 
>of
>culture and heritage.  Was this new mestizo identity hegemonic? Yes, the
>intellectual and political elite of Mexico, many of mostly European 
>descent,
>chose to construct this identity in order to counter largely European
>assertions that as a nation of mixed-race individuals Mexico was inherantly
>weak. This new formulation of the Mexican mestizo nation has been rather
>successful in insuring the continued survival of indigenous culture within 
>the
>nation, because without its connection to indigenous groups, their culture, 
>and
>their past there could be no indigenous element. For example INAH, 
>Instituto
>Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, focuses far more of its archaeological
>time on indigenous sites than on colonial ones because of the importance 
>that
>indigenous culture plays for the continuation of a mestizo identity. What 
>your
>paper fails to realize in this is that the modern Mexican mestizo identity 
>is
>in fact a construction intended to counter European racism and 
>discrimination.
>While certainly it does not leave much room for individuals of entirely
>indigenous descent it does acknowledge the cultural inheritance of 
>indigenous
>groups and has helped to improve their position within the Mexican nation 
>and
>consciousness. As anyother identity it is mutable an will change. Your 
>paper
>needs to recognize that even imposed identities may be reappropriated 
>overtime.
>
>Rob
>
>Robert Schwaller
>
>Ph.D. Candidate
>Penn State - Dept. of History
>105 Weaver Bldg.
>University Park PA, 16801


From david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr 17 23:26:09 2006
From: david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM (David Becraft)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:26:09 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement [Mario]
In-Reply-To: <44413D36.8000600@cox.net>
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2006.162609.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thank you also for your comments.

I do agree and commend you on your comments.  I think that within the 
framework of racism and bigotry, your comments are well placed and 
definitely point out the danger of being "single-minded"; something of which 
I hope in the future to avoid.  I do think though that the Indigenous people 
need to come out of the Hispanic and Latino labels and identify as being 
"macehualtin" or "cualli coyomeh"[to use your definitions].  The fact that 
you were labeled as Cualli Coyomeh does not deny your Indigenous heritage 
though, as does the Hispanic / Latino labeling; that in essence is the 
purpose of my paper.  I do hope to use these differing and helpful ideas and 
opinions to further my own personal understanding on this subject.

Thank for you insight,

Pancho Becraft


>From: micc2 <micc2 at COX.NET>
>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
>Subject: Re: Mexica Movement
>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:36:38 -0700
>
>I agree with Frances regarding the important issues she raises.  I have 
>been involved in the Danza Azteca movement since its beginning in 1974. At 
>that time we young Chicano college students wanted some tie to the 
>indigenous cultures of Mexico.  Some of our carnales had deeply immersed 
>themselves in the Lakota, Hopi, Chumash, Kumeyaay, and Dine cultures as a 
>way to identify with their indigenous roots.  But most of these first 
>nations did not have direct links to the indigenous heritage of Mexico (at 
>least from A.D. 1325 on).  Also, many Chicanos who  were U.S. born and did 
>not speak Spanish, felt a distance from the recent Spanish speaking 
>immigrants.
>
>Thus when la Danza Azteca arrived through the work of the danza elders 
>Andres Segura and Florencio Yescas, we Chicanos quickly latched on to what 
>appeared to be a living link to our indigenous roots as "Aztecas".  Over 
>time from murals, music, literature, theater, to political ideology, the 
>"Azteca" image, and self-identity permeated Chicano culture, and 
>spirituality.  Even the Catholic church, for centuries the ambivalent 
>exterminator of precolumbian religion, readily accepted the "tonantzin"  
>identification of Guadalupe  (to better bring in the Mexican immigrants 
>into the American fold).
>
>>From the 1980's on, young Chicanos,  those that had maintained their 
>contact with the sun dance, the  Native American Church, etc. began to 
>politicize and take their version of "Aztecaness"  to the logical extreme. 
>Using the name of the Culhua-Tenochca-Mexi'ca of Tenochtitlan as the 
>ideological Ying for the Spanish Yang of Mexican identity, the Mexihca 
>movement was born.
>
>I truly believe that the Mexihca movement is a logical outcome of the 
>American culture of  bipolar identity.  That is we against them, black 
>against white, Christian against heathen, capitalist against communist (or 
>whatever took its place), red state against blue state. Most of the 
>followers of these bipolar allegiances leave absolutely no room for the 
>vast middle ground (Please turn you AM dial to any talk show station for 
>many sad examples).  It is a historic fact that, protestant millennialism, 
>apocalyptic  writings, and  messianic  cults have deeply  influences the  
>manifest destiny  mindset of the U.S. This is why after three decades of 
>dealing with the most rabid of the follows of the MM I call them the 
>Mexihca Nazis.  They hate anyone and anything that does not look act, or 
>think like them.  If you question their beliefs, and you are a 
>Mexican/Chicano/Latino/Hispanic/Mojado/Pollo.....etc. etc., you are 
>automatically a sell out a traitor and an wannabe white person.... shades 
>of Al-Qaeda!
>
>I believe that the Mexihca movement is a logical continuation of this 
>cultural phenomenon.  The inexperience  I have had with traditional people 
>in the U.S.  and Mexico has  been one of  acceptance of diversity, respect 
>for other value systems, and most importantly of all, an understanding that 
>we are living in the modern world, not 1491.  The kind people I can call 
>family in Second Mesa, Hopiland, Paguate Pueblo in Laguna, Tepecxictla in 
>Veracruz, and many other traditional places, have never been as dogmatic, 
>inflexible, and idealistic as the Mexihca movement followers I have dealt 
>with these past 32 years.
>
>
>/..."Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other indigenous 
>peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and down the west 
>coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic groups resident in 
>Florida, to cite but two examples,* relate to a Mexica movement?"*.../
>
>The answer is that they do not.  First of all if you ask a macehualtlahto 
>if he or she is Mexihca, they will say "no I am a macehaulli"  The real 
>Mexihca fades into mestizaje centuries ago.  True someone (like myself) who 
>was born in Mexico City could lay claim to be a "true Mexihca" by birth.  
>But culturally,  Mexico-Tenochtitlan became a Spanish "city of palaces" by 
>the late 1600's.  The last barrio of Mexihca people, that of San Jose de 
>los Naturales, no longer exists.
>The modern Nahuatl (as well as Mazahua, Otomi, Mixteco, Zapoteco, etc.) 
>speakers of the city are immigrants from the rural states of Mexico.
>
>/As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
>appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture complex 
>also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people they don't 
>recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh? /
>
>Second of all, poetic, revisionist ideology aside, the modern indigenous 
>people (yes including the Nahuatl speaking people of Michoacan, Hidalgo, 
>Puebla, Veracruz, Guerrero, Jalisco, etc. etc.)  were the enemies and the 
>victims of Mexihca imperialism.  So we do a double insult to these people 
>by trying to cram them into the Mexihca movement's bipolar identity and 
>political world view.
>
>Through my study of the Azteca dance tradition of which I have been a part 
>of for its first 30 formative years, since its arrival in 1974 to today 
>when we have the third generation of danzantes being born, I have come to 
>realize that the "Azteca Dance tradition" is NOT Aztec at all!  It is a 
>beautiful evolution of Chichimeca, Otomi, Puhrepecha, Tlaxcalteca, Jonaz, 
>and yes Nahua (not Meixihca) precolumbian traditions AND Spanish 
>Catholicism, and African animism. That is why the traditional name for "la 
>Danza Azteca" is more in keeping with reality:  La danza Conchera, La danza 
>Chichimeca, la danza de la conquista.  Of course there will be many MNs who 
>will find offense with my epiphany of la danza./
>
>While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
>Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico,* I have wondered about the 
>single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
>Aztecs.  */
>/
>/About 1989,  as part of my work with the Early Academic outreach Program 
>at UCSD,  I went and gave a presentation to some Mixteco high school 
>students in Fallbrook, CA.  There, they and their parents wrked in the 
>avocado groves that have overrun the dry semi-desert moutnains of the area. 
>  There was at that time  three prong ethinc strife at the local high 
>school  Native Ameridcans from the local reservations against the 
>Chicano/Mexicano students, and both these groups against the recent Mixteco 
>immigrants who the Chicano students disparagingly called "Oaxacas".  A 
>young Mexihca Nazi type was wroking with them, and I sat and listend to his 
>presentation where he brow beat the Mixteco students for not following 
>their "ancient Mexihca ways!"  He put down their language because it was 
>not Nahuatl, and he told them that they need to follwo the teachings of s 
>"traditonal Azteca Elder" who lived in L.A. and who knwe the secret and 
>ancient wisdom that had been handed down from Cuautemoc. His cultural 
>imerpialsim, lack of sensitivity to the immigrant youths struggles and 
>their pride in the Mixteco culture was offensive.  He was more 
>imperialistic and racist thatn the white studentss and staff of the high 
>school that tormented the Mixteco kids on a daily basis./
>/
>One of the sad experiences I had in the summer Nahuatl Institute in 
>Zacatecas ( an incredible learning experience I might add: www.idiez.org.mx 
>) was when I sat in to listen to the Macehual students from Veracruz, San 
>Luis Potosi, and Hidalgo discuss their definitions for the upcoming Nahuatl 
>dictionary for Nahuatl speakers.
>When the definition of Macehual came up there was a discussion of who was a 
>macehual (an indigenous person) and who was a coyomeh (non indigenous 
>people)
>one person said that a Macehual was a person born in Mexico who had 
>indigenous blood. John Sullivan pointed to me and said I was born in "el 
>D.F." and I obviously had indigenous blood, so way I a macehual?  The 
>answer was a unanimous "axcana" ...no.  I and all Chicanos are Coyomeh,  
>like whites, and blacks, and Asians,  because I did not speak an indigenous 
>language from birth, did not live an indigenous life, and did not 
>understand the indigenous world view that permeates the daily lives of the 
>Macehualmeh.  I was devastated! I had been an "Azteca" dancer for 32 years, 
>studied Nahuatl language, thought, culture, medicine, food, music..... and 
>yet I was not better than the man selling T-shirts outside the Super 
>bowl... But the students went on to say that John and I, as well as the 
>other students who where their for the summer course were "cualli coyomeh"  
>good outsiders.... and that was the key.  Coyomeh does not mean "white" or 
>"hated evil white devil" as I have heard some Mexihca Nazis claim.  it 
>simply means an outsider, one who does not belong to the local world view. 
>Even an indigenous person can be a coyomeh.  as an example, a Maya from 
>Palenque  is a coyomeh in Chicontepec, Veracruz.
>
>To fantasize that all indigenous people like and love each other, and live 
>in a uotpoia, is to negate the human natuer of indigenous poeple and to put 
>them on that same tired old bipolar  pedestal of  "noble savage"
>
>Thus the new indigenous immigrant cannot  be  expected to jump in head 
>first into a political and idealogical movement that  does not  reflect  
>their culture back home,  claims to be the ONLY  TRUE path to 
>self-determination, AND preaches hatred and imperialism.  On the contrary,  
>My experience has been that many recent immigrants look to the Catholic 
>church, and and the ever growing Latino evangelical churches, for 
>community, support and economic stability.
>
>/"...The term "Meso-America"--while literally meaning the same thing--has 
>been used for a long time to refer to the well-defined culture area ranging 
>from northern Mexico through El Salvador and Nicaragua.  //Within this 
>ancient area, into which the Nahuah were late arrivals, there are many 
>unrelated indigenous languages but many shared cultural features./..."
>
>I know several persons of Peruvian, Salvadoran, Guatemalteco, and 
>Costarican heritage that call themselves Chicano. Some even practice the 
>Azteca dance tradition can call it their "ancient heritage"  I believe that 
>the many shared cultural features of modern Latin America, as evolving 
>within the U.S. have created a modern "mesoamerica" identity.  At the far 
>left extreme are the Mexihca Nazis, who want to "take back their land" 
>(never mind that it was not the white Mexican elite's land to give away, 
>sell or lose in the first place.... it belonged to the indigenous nations 
>that first Spain, then Mexico, and last the U.S. plundered and 
>exterminated...).  They sit in the same penalty box that Al-Qaeda, the 
>fundamentalist Jews, Christians, Hindus White/black/brown supremicists, 
>etc. sit in.  Then on the extreme far right are the Hispanics.  They are 
>the people who have "made it"  by their own "individual effort " (never 
>mind the racism, and cultural genocide, and identity theft they had to 
>endure).  They have arrived at the holy grail of "the American dream"... 
>the middle class, that speaks without any "foreign accent"  They see 
>"Hispanic" culture as something to roll out on cinco de Mayo, or Hispanic 
>heritage month. They are not interested in indigenous thought, culture, 
>identity or politics, because they (at least in their mind) have overcome, 
>surpassed or left behind this rather frightening (due to its dark brown 
>skin and black hair) identity in favor of the eminently marketable blond 
>Shikira, J.L0 and Paulina Rubio.
>
>It is in the great middle ground, where people of all colors, ethnicities, 
>religions sexual preferences, and languages, create and evolve the dynamic 
>realities of 21st century culture.  As poeple who are deeply interested in 
>the legacy, development and survival of the "mesoamerican" indigenous 
>people,  AND their cultural, spiritual and genetic link to the modern 
>world,  we must keep in  mind that any extremist ideology, on the left or 
>the right, ultimately leads to nihilism.
>
>
>
>
>mario
>www.mexicayotl.org
>/I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality./
>
>
>Frances Karttunen wrote:
>>I certainly agree with many points in your paper, but I also think your 
>>bibliography needs expansion, and the place to start would be with James 
>>Lockhart's big book, The Nahuas After the Conquest.
>>
>>While the movement you describe has obvious appeal to many people of 
>>Mexican heritage in both the USA and Mexico, I have wondered about the 
>>single-minded focus on the Uto-Aztecan peoples and in particular the 
>>Aztecs.  Doesn't this disenfranchise (yet again) the many other indigenous 
>>peoples of Mexico?  How can the Mixtec farm workers up and down the west 
>>coast of the USA and those of various Mayan ethnic groups resident in 
>>Florida, to cite but two examples, relate to a Mexica movement?
>>
>>As for the million or so Nahuatl-speaking people of today, isn't 
>>appropriating their name and aspects of their language-and-culture complex 
>>also an act of cultural imperialism imposed on them by people they don't 
>>recognize as fellow macehualtin/nahuatlatohqueh?
>>
>>Also, it seems that you are equating "Mexican" and "Central American" in 
>>your paper, but most people use "Central America" to refer to the 
>>countries south of Mexico through Panama. The term "Meso-America"--while 
>>literally meaning the same thing--has been used for a long time to refer 
>>to the well-defined culture area ranging from northern Mexico through El 
>>Salvador and Nicaragua.  Within this ancient area, into which the Nahuah 
>>were late arrivals, there are many unrelated indigenous languages but many 
>>shared cultural features.
>>
>>Frances Karttunen
>>
>>
>>On Apr 14, 2006, at 7:15 PM, David Becraft wrote:
>>
>>>I just finished a research paper for my Anthropology 301 class with Dr. 
>>>Anne Chambers of Southern Oregon University.  Please review it and 
>>>critique it at:
>>>http://panchobecraft.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>
>>


From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Apr 17 23:29:55 2006
From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (Jos=?ISO-8859-1?B?6SAg?=Rabasa)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:29:55 -0700
Subject: Mexica Movement [Schwaller]
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F2974AD13D88E94466EA3828BC70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2006.162955.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Dear Pancho: You could not be clearer about Vasconcelos. I would add that he
is on record for thanking the Spaniards from curing the nation of the
"vices" of sodomy and cannibalism. We are certainly beyond the idealization
of mestizaje as a nationalist ideology. Suerte, Jose


On 4/17/06 4:02 PM, "David Becraft" <david_becraft at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Thank you for commenting on my paper.
> I agree with you that identities can in the future become modified and
> reappropriated, this in a sense is what the Mexica Movement is doing.  It is
> taking people who have lost a knowledge of their indigenous identity
> [obviously as a result of colonialism] and reintroducing them to an identity
> that can rebuild their sense of worth as an indigenous person.  Many do not
> know whether they are Otomangue or Maya, or even Yuto-Nawa, yet people are
> adopting not only Mexica as an identity, but others as well.  Those who are
> adopting or "reappropriating" other indigenous identities,[Yaki, Raramuri,
> Pore'pecha, etc] many times do so as a result of the oral tradition or
> geographical location as to what indigenous group they "probably" descend
> from.
> I disagree with you and JOSE VASCONCELOS though, Mestizo [latin for mixed]
> is a sociopolitical construct used by the elite to dominate the Indigenous
> population into "taking pride" in their "Spanish blood" while "taking shame"
> in their "Indigenous blood."  Europeans are also a Mixed [Mestizo] people,
> yet they are not viewed as a "Cosmic Race".  The race concept itself is a
> social construction with roots in early "American colonialsim".  Considering
> that "Mestizo" means mixed, a child of a Mixtec and Maya parents would also
> be considered Mestizo/Mixed.  Yet, under the sociopolitical construction of
> biological differences, this is never a matter of debate.
> The majority of Indigenous people have not had Spanish "inter-marriage" or
> Spanish blood "raped" into them in the last 200 + years, hence [if one wants
> to follow a biological concept of race], so-called Mestizo's are not
> actually "mixed" anymore.
> 
> Thank you for your critique, I will take your considerations into account in
> the future, as well as Frances Karttunen's.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Pancho Becraft
> 
> 
>> From: ROBERT SCHWALLER <rcs218 at PSU.EDU>
>> Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
>> Subject: Mexica Movement
>> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:48:20 -0400
>> 
>> I would have to agree with Dr. Karttunen. While I agree with your paper's
>> assertion that identity can be both imposed on an individual or a group or
>> constructed independently. The problem I see with the paper is that it
>> fails to
>> recognize that even identities which may have been created by dominant
>> elites
>> may in later times become modified and reapproproiated. The concept of a
>> mestizo identity is very interesting in this regard. During the colonial
>> period
>> it was created by the Spanish to describe individuals of mixed Iberian and
>> indigenous descent. It did serve to distinguish these individuals from
>> their
>> indigenous relatives. However, by the early 20th century, the intellectual
>> elite of Mexico had successfully reimagined the Mexican national identity
>> as
>> being mestizo. Was this the same as the earlier Spanish colonial label? No,
>> obviously not, the major goal of this new mestizo identity was the
>> valorization
>> of both European white culture AND native indigenous culture. Jose
>> Vasconcelos
>> argued that Mexicans were "la raza cosmica" because of this unique blending
>> of
>> culture and heritage.  Was this new mestizo identity hegemonic? Yes, the
>> intellectual and political elite of Mexico, many of mostly European
>> descent,
>> chose to construct this identity in order to counter largely European
>> assertions that as a nation of mixed-race individuals Mexico was inherantly
>> weak. This new formulation of the Mexican mestizo nation has been rather
>> successful in insuring the continued survival of indigenous culture within
>> the
>> nation, because without its connection to indigenous groups, their culture,
>> and
>> their past there could be no indigenous element. For example INAH,
>> Instituto
>> Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, focuses far more of its archaeological
>> time on indigenous sites than on colonial ones because of the importance
>> that
>> indigenous culture plays for the continuation of a mestizo identity. What
>> your
>> paper fails to realize in this is that the modern Mexican mestizo identity
>> is
>> in fact a construction intended to counter European racism and
>> discrimination.
>> While certainly it does not leave much room for individuals of entirely
>> indigenous descent it does acknowledge the cultural inheritance of
>> indigenous
>> groups and has helped to improve their position within the Mexican nation
>> and
>> consciousness. As anyother identity it is mutable an will change. Your
>> paper
>> needs to recognize that even imposed identities may be reappropriated
>> overtime.
>> 
>> Rob
>> 
>> Robert Schwaller
>> 
>> Ph.D. Candidate
>> Penn State - Dept. of History
>> 105 Weaver Bldg.
>> University Park PA, 16801


From schwallr at morris.umn.edu  Tue Apr 18 13:40:49 2006
From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:40:49 -0500
Subject: Nahuat-l is moving
Message-ID: <TUE.18.APR.2006.084049.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Colleagues,

As I noted last week, Nahuat-l is moving.  Effective tomorrow our 
list will be hosted at FAMSI.  I am very pleased by the move and hope 
that it will be the last that the list has to make.

As a subscriber there is nothing that you need to do.  We will handle 
the transfer behind the scenes.  Starting tomorrow, to post to this 
list, send your email to:

   nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

General information about the mailing list is at:

   http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


For the next few months, messages sent to the lists.umn.edu address 
will automatically be forwarded to the new address, so if you forget, 
it should be OK.

John F. Schwaller
List owner



John F. Schwaller
President - elect
SUNY Potsdam

Until 6-30-06:
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at morris.umn.edu


From idiez at mac.com  Wed Apr 26 02:00:10 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (idiez at mac.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:00:10 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Nahuat-l] Indigenous identity
Message-ID: <TUE.25.APR.2006.210010.0500.>

Begin forwarded message:

> From: idiez at mac.com
> Date: April 25, 2006 8:59:02 PM CDT
> To: juan at papaqui.com
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Indigenous identity
>
> Juan,
> 	Cuando digo, "El problema es que la ideolog?a nacional e individual 
> lo descuenta de antemano," quiero decir que cuando un individuo o un 
> vocero de la cultura o la pol?tica nacional dice, "Estoy/Estamos muy 
> orgullosos de nuestras ra?ces ind?genas", en la mayor?a de los casos 
> est? emitiendo una frase que carece de sentido: primero, porque se 
> refiere exclusivamente a la cultura ind?gena del pasado, de la cual 
> probablemente sabe muy poco; y segundo, porque la frase no se refiere 
> en nada a los ind?genas de hoy, quienes est?n excluidos por completo 
> de la vida nacional. Este tipo de discurso vac?o trata el asunto de 
> manera superficial y abarcante, pero sin llegar al meollo del 
> problema, y de esta manera funciona para "descontarlo de antemano". Si 
> de veras en M?xico nos interesa la cultura ind?gena, vamos a algo muy 
> concreto: por ejemplo, ?por qu? no promover la ense?anza de lenguas 
> ind?genas en las escuelas de M?xico?
> John
>
> John Sullivan, Ph.D.
> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
> Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas
> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
> Director
> Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
> Tacuba 152, int. 47
> Centro Hist?rico
> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
> M?xico
> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
> Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985
> idiez at mac.com
> www.idiez.org.mx
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2006, at 7:50 PM, juan wrote:
>
>>
>> Claro que el mexicano no mesoamericano es una mezcla de culturas, 
>> pero en su nucleo abundan las ideas occidentales y no las 
>> mesoamericanas; como podriamos entender la no existencia de la 
>> propiedad privada los no mesoamericanos??? como pueden los 
>> mesoamericanos entender un tipo de vida que no sea comunitaria??? A 
>> esas diferencias me refiero. En el mundo mesoamericano privan ideas 
>> que no lo hacen en el occidental y viceversa. Ahora bien, respecto a 
>> las mexicaneidades, claro que hay muchas, dependiendo del espacio y 
>> el tiempo, pero si acaso podemos englobalarlas, me agrada mas la idea 
>> de hacerlo en esas dos partes, que dependen de las ideas primarias 
>> que conforman el contrato social que de otras formas.
>>
>> Por otro lado, es cierto que para entender a los mesoamericanos o a 
>> cualquier otro pueblo, lo mejor es entender su propia lengua; el 
>> pensamiento esta conformado y limitado por el lenguaje, esto tambien 
>> se ha demostrado; estoy de acuerdo en que un camino certero para 
>> llegar a ello es el estudio de la lengua y la cultura.
>>
>> No entiendo con precision a que se refiere el comentario de: "El 
>> problema es que la ideolog?a nacional e individual lo descuenta de 
>> antemano."
>>
>> Finalmente, creo que no es esta la unica area donde falta 
>> investigacion y difusion, y tambien creo que en esta area seria 
>> maravilloso tenerla.
>>
>> Saludos
>>
>
>
John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
Director
Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
M?xico
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx
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From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com  Sun Apr 30 14:24:39 2006
From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 15:24:39 +0100
Subject: tlachtli and ullamaliztli...
Message-ID: <SUN.30.APR.2006.152439.0100.IAN.MURSELL@BTINTERNET.COM>

Dear Listeros,

Please could I seek your help?  I?m expanding and updating a page on our
educational website about the Mesoamerican ballgame.  I?ve got as far as I
can without knowing N?huatl and am keen to clarify the precise
meanings/derivations of the words -

Tlachtli
Tlachco
Ullamaliztli

Forgive me if this topic has come up before.  I?d just like very much to
sort out what the Aztecs would have called a) the game, b) the court and if
possible c) the ball!

Our ballgame page is at -

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=fac&id=215

Many thanks, as ever, and saludos,

Ian

Ian Mursell
Director
Mexicolore
28 Warriner Gardens
London SW11 4EB, U.K.
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643
www.mexicolore.co.uk
Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
info at mexicolore.co.uk

1980-2005: 25 years of bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and
museums throughout England.  Team visits, online teaching resources and
services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and much more - all
from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team' (British Museum
Education Service)


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