From susana at losrancheros.org Fri Dec 1 11:40:21 2006 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:40:21 +0100 Subject: Mesoamerican studies Message-ID: I have an additional question today, please. Is there any university somewhere which offers Mesoamerican studies (or Aztec studies) as "distance learning"?? I'd be really grateful if someone could recommend one. Muchas gracias, Susana Moraleda _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Fri Dec 1 11:35:44 2006 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:35:44 +0100 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan Message-ID: I read somewhere that the original name of Teotihuacan was Tula, and that Teotihuacan was the name given to it by the Aztecs. Could this be true? and how do we know it is true? So what about the "other" Tula??? Thank you for enlightening me!!! Un saludo cariñoso, Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Fri Dec 1 11:37:56 2006 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:37:56 +0100 Subject: Ometeotl as a triangle? Message-ID: I read that Ometeotl is represented as a triangle in "some codices". Would anyone know which codices? and what is the meaning of the triangle? It is quite puzzling to me because I tend to stick to the idea of duality when talking of OME-teotl. Tlazohcamati, Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Fri Dec 1 14:10:51 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 08:10:51 -0600 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <003801c7153d$86a30f10$0c9c2597@mexico> Message-ID: Listeros, By the way, has anybody figured out what "teotihuacan" means? The "- ti-" has me stumped. In San Luis Potosí, fire is "tit". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx  On Dec 1, 2006, at 5:35 AM, Susana Moraleda wrote: > I read somewhere that the original name of Teotihuacan was Tula, > and that > Teotihuacan was the name given to it by the Aztecs. Could this be > true? and > how do we know it is true? So what about the "other" Tula??? > > Thank you for enlightening me!!! > > Un saludo cariñoso, > Susana > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de Fri Dec 1 16:55:42 2006 From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 17:55:42 +0100 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <26CB4EB3-7E2A-4305-9100-F3EB10D831B5@mac.com> Message-ID: Wouldn't Teotihuacan be TEO:(tl) -TI(a) -HUA -CA:N god -CAUS -IMPERS -LOC "Place where gods are made" for -hua compare /cochihua/ "there is sleeping, people sleep" (easier to translate in other languages, French "on dort", German "man schläft") would be the same as /cochilo/ Henry _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Dec 1 17:29:58 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:29:58 -0500 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <45705E8E.6000805@em.uni-frankfurt.de> Message-ID: this question made the rounds a few years ago. i don't remember what was said. ^^ The thing is, Henry's comparison is stilted since cochi is intransitive and "teotia" is causative. my guess would that we have instransitive teoti = "to become a God," similar to tlacati = "to become a human," i.e., "to be born". I'm not sure such a phrase can be precisely translated into English. What? "Place where they are to be Gods". Hmmmm... michael Quoting Henry Kammler : > Wouldn't Teotihuacan be > > TEO:(tl) -TI(a) -HUA -CA:N > god -CAUS -IMPERS -LOC > > "Place where gods are made" > > for -hua compare /cochihua/ "there is sleeping, people sleep" (easier > to translate in other languages, French "on dort", German "man > schläft") > would be the same as /cochilo/ > > > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From huehueteot at aol.com Fri Dec 1 23:30:35 2006 From: huehueteot at aol.com (huehueteot at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 18:30:35 -0500 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <20061201122958.zo3rizx68sk4csgw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi All: I always heard Teotihuacan translated as the place where the gods were made. Which sounds pretty much just as Michael has translated it. Tula was always presented as an hispanization of Tollan or place of reeds or place of a bundle of reeds. Which was the term for "The" administrative center. The term became wide spread and was rendered in many different toponyms, Tula, Tulantzingo...cingo etc. It was never clear to me what the concept was except that to be a legitimate ruler in the time of the Toltecs it was neccessary to have your reign "approved" at Tollan. I once saw an argument that much of what the Aztecs were doing with their conquests was to gather together enough of the centers of power in the Mesoamerican world to make themselves the next "Tollan". Cheers, Hugh G. "Sam" Ball And remember: "This too Shall Pass! -----Original Message----- From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Tula vs. Teotihuacan this question made the rounds a few years ago. i don't remember what was said. ^^ The thing is, Henry's comparison is stilted since cochi is intransitive and "teotia" is causative. my guess would that we have instransitive teoti = "to become a God," similar to tlacati = "to become a human," i.e., "to be born". I'm not sure such a phrase can be precisely translated into English. What? "Place where they are to be Gods". Hmmmm... michael Quoting Henry Kammler : > Wouldn't Teotihuacan be > > TEO:(tl) -TI(a) -HUA -CA:N > god -CAUS -IMPERS -LOC > > "Place where gods are made" > > for -hua compare /cochihua/ "there is sleeping, people sleep" (easier > to translate in other languages, French "on dort", German "man > schläft") > would be the same as /cochilo/ > > > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Dec 2 00:14:38 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 18:14:38 -0600 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <8C8E3B7D614D1F4-169C-B9E@WEBMAIL-MB21.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Listeros, Here is what I know about how the word "Teotihuacan" is put together. First, the ending "-can" is actually two pieces: the "-ca-" is the old preterite suffix, which is used as a ligature between what come before, a preterite agentive noun, and what comes at the end, in this case, the locative "-n". So, the idea is that in most cases (there is an exception, which I comment on below), when you see "-can", it will be stuck on the end of a preterite agentive noun. Second, the most common agentive formations that have "-can" stuck on them are made up of a noun, with one of three suffixes stuck on the end: "-eh" and "-huah" mean "owner of something", and "-yoh", also means "owner of something", but with the special sense of "covered with something". All three of these suffixes are preterite agentive formations, so they can take "-can". Third, in a few cases, "-can" is stuck on a regular noun stem. So finally, you have to ask yourself the question: what is the noun that comes before the "-can" in Teotihuacan. Is it the "teotihuah" which has the preterite agentive "-huah". In this case it would mean "place of the owner(s) of "teoti-tl" or teotih-tli", whatever that means. This is why I suggested originally that the "-ti-" may be a form of "tletl/tlitl/titl", "fire", giving "place of the owners of divine fire" or something like that. It is also possible that the noun before "-can" is a regular preterite agentive noun, "teotihuac" (coming from a hypothetical class 1 verb) or "teotihuah(qui)" (coming from a hypothetical class 4 verb). In any case I have never heard of these verbs. Finally, it is possible that this is a rare case of "-can" being stuck on a regular noun. In this case there would be a noun, "teotihua-tl", or teotihuah-tli". And I have never heard of these either. This is why the etymology of Teotihuacan is not transparent. And as far as I know, it has not been explained. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sat Dec 2 00:58:06 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:58:06 -0500 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <003801c7153d$86a30f10$0c9c2597@mexico> Message-ID: > I read somewhere that the original name of Teotihuacan was Tula, and that > Teotihuacan was the name given to it by the Aztecs. Could this be true? > and > how do we know it is true? So what about the "other" Tula??? > In response to this particular, since Tula (Tollan) was mythic by the time of the Mexica rise to power, they did not know to what actual place the name referred, if any. In point of fact even today we cannot be certain where/what Tollan truly was (although many serious scholars do associate it with modern-day Tula, Hidalgo). As a result, some sources do conflate Tollan with Teotihuacan. Whether or not this was universal, wide spread, customary among the Mexica is also subject to debate. -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Dec 2 03:10:06 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:10:06 -0500 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <2E49DDA2-1F89-4AB5-89CC-F363C2A86F70@mac.com> Message-ID: John, This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" occurs. Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a separate message. Iztayohmeh, Joe 1151. in izazanillo hi. this is its story. 1152. quil in iquin teotihuac in *teotihua*ya in yohuayan. quil nahuilhuitl in nezahualoc. it is said that when the god was made, when the god was formed, in the time of darkness, it is said, there was fasting for four days. 1153. quilmach yehuatl tonatiuh yezquia in metztli. It is said that the moon would be the sun. 1154. auh in oacic nahuilhuitl quil yohualtica in *teotihua*c. and when four days were completed, it is said, the god was made during the night. 1155. auh quilmach ihcuac tonatiuhtizquia in metztli. quil cenca huei in tletl motlali in mitoa teotlecuilco in xiuhtetzacualco. and it is said that when the moon would be the sun, it is said, a very great fire was laid in the place called the gods' hearth, the turquoise enclosure. 1156. auh in ye imma in *teotihua*z. omotlali in cenca huei tletl in oncan oncholoz in oncan onhuetziz in metztli in onca quicuiz tleyotl mahuizyotl inic tonatiuhtiz. and when it was already time for the god to be made, there was laid the very great fire into which was to leap, was to fall the moon -- where he was to gain renown, glory; by which he would become the sun. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Dec 2 04:55:28 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:55:28 -0800 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <20061201221006.bb00xmwrk0s80cso@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, So it looks like this is the impersonal form of "teoti", "he/she/it becomes or becomes like a god". A better translation of "teotihua" would be "god-becoming happens". I don't have a grammar with me, and I'm trying to think, are there other place names built on the preterite of the impersonal form of a verb? And, can the preterite of the impersonal form of a verb be interpreted as a noun? John On Friday, December 01, 2006, at 07:13PM, "Campbell, R Joe" wrote: >John, > > This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" occurs. >Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am >including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a >separate message. > >Iztayohmeh, > >Joe > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Amapohuani at aol.com Sat Dec 2 05:18:15 2006 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:18:15 EST Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan Message-ID: Listeros: Related are "camissatiua" and "tilmatiua" in Molina's 1569 CONFESSIONARIO MAYOR (see the UNAM photoreproduction). I am not at home in Glendale, CA, so I cannot consult my copy directly but I remember these two items very well. Perhaps this will help shed a little more light on this discussion since facing Spanish translations [of varying specificity and usefulness] might be of help. Or not. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 12/1/06 8:56:41 PM, idiez at mac.com writes: > Joe, > So it looks like this is the impersonal form of "teoti", "he/she/it becomes > or becomes like a god". A better translation of "teotihua" would be > "god-becoming happens". I don't have a grammar with me, and I'm trying to think, are > there other place names built on the preterite of the impersonal form of a > verb? And, can the preterite of the impersonal form of a verb be interpreted as > a noun? > John > > On Friday, December 01, 2006, at 07:13PM, "Campbell,  R Joe" < > campbel at indiana.edu> wrote: > >John, > > > >    This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" occurs. > >Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am > >including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a > >separate message. > > > >Iztayohmeh, > > > >Joe > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From igr at stanford.edu Sat Dec 2 07:13:38 2006 From: igr at stanford.edu (Ian Robertson) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 23:13:38 -0800 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <23DADD3F-010F-1000-A8DB-D64A7FCA8E3A-Webmail-10012@mac.com> Message-ID: Hello all, Some years ago I wrote up the following brief note on the meaning of Teotihuacan--as I understood it. I would be happy to hear other ideas or suggestions. Best, Ian Robertson +++++++++++++++++ A variety of more and less implausible translations have been suggested for /teotihuacan/, including ‘place of worship,’ ‘abode of the Gods,’ ‘the place where men became Gods,’ and the ‘place of those who have the road of the Gods’ (see Millon 1992:359). The translation I favour (‘the place where divinity comes into being’) is based on identifying the following elements: *teoti* ; *–hua* ; and *–can* (see Launey 1992:135 ff., 225). Andrews (2003:498) has recently translated the word as ‘at the place of the owners of the Elder Gods’. This intriguing translation may conceivably make better sense of the observed locative *–can* (the locative –*yan* might be expected after the impersonal verbstem /teotihua/*–* that I posit) but this reading also requires restoring a glottal stop in the position immediately preceding—/teotihuahcan/ instead of /teotihuacan/. Andrews, J. Richard 2003 /Introduction to Classical Nahuatl/. Revised Ed. University of Oklahoma Press, Norman. Launey, Michel 1992 /Introducción a la Lengua y a la Literatura Náhuatl/. Instituto de Investigaciones Antropológicas, UNAM, México, D. F. Millon, René 1992 Teotihuacan Studies: From 1950 to 1990 and Beyond/./ In /Art, Ideology, and the City of Teotihuacan/, edited by J. C. Berlo, pp. 339-429. Dumbarton Oaks, Washington, D.C. +++++++++++++++++ John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > Joe, > So it looks like this is the impersonal form of "teoti", "he/she/it becomes or becomes like a god". A better translation of "teotihua" would be "god-becoming happens". I don't have a grammar with me, and I'm trying to think, are there other place names built on the preterite of the impersonal form of a verb? And, can the preterite of the impersonal form of a verb be interpreted as a noun? > John > > On Friday, December 01, 2006, at 07:13PM, "Campbell, R Joe" wrote: > >> John, >> >> This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" occurs. >> Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am >> including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a >> separate message. >> >> Iztayohmeh, >> >> Joe >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Dec 2 14:14:18 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 09:14:18 -0500 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <23DADD3F-010F-1000-A8DB-D64A7FCA8E3A-Webmail-10012@mac.com> Message-ID: I like your translation, John. I couldn't come up with one for English when I suggested the other day that teoti was behind this place name. But teotihua and cochihua make perfect and parallel sense to me if I switch into my Nahuatl-only mind. In fact *Cochihuacan sounds quite nice. I wonder where it is. :) Michael Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Joe, > So it looks like this is the impersonal form of "teoti", "he/she/it > becomes or becomes like a god". A better translation of "teotihua" > would be "god-becoming happens". I don't have a grammar with me, and > I'm trying to think, are there other place names built on the > preterite of the impersonal form of a verb? And, can the preterite of > the impersonal form of a verb be interpreted as a noun? > John > > On Friday, December 01, 2006, at 07:13PM, "Campbell, R Joe" > wrote: >> John, >> >> This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" occurs. >> Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am >> including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a >> separate message. >> >> Iztayohmeh, >> >> Joe >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rcrapo at hass.usu.edu Sat Dec 2 18:50:43 2006 From: rcrapo at hass.usu.edu (Richley) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 11:50:43 -0700 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan Message-ID: I wonder whether the "becomes a god" might euphemistically refer to ritual sacrifice. Richley (Hope this gets thru without a glitch. I've tried to repair that problem.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Sullivan, Ph.D." To: "Campbell, R Joe" Cc: Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Tula vs. Teotihuacan > Joe, > So it looks like this is the impersonal form of "teoti", "he/she/it > becomes or becomes like a god". A better translation of "teotihua" would > be "god-becoming happens". I don't have a grammar with me, and I'm trying > to think, are there other place names built on the preterite of the > impersonal form of a verb? And, can the preterite of the impersonal form > of a verb be interpreted as a noun? > John > > On Friday, December 01, 2006, at 07:13PM, "Campbell, R Joe" > wrote: >>John, >> >> This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" >> occurs. >>Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am >>including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a >>separate message. >> >>Iztayohmeh, >> >>Joe >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ramiro_Medrano at csumb.edu Mon Dec 4 06:00:46 2006 From: Ramiro_Medrano at csumb.edu (Ramiro Medrano) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:00:46 -0800 Subject: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <200612021800.kB2I0W56015812@www.famsi.org> Message-ID: Hello all, I have read how many scholars believe the word "teotl" translates to "god," but I am not sure from where they take this belief. Maybe from the Spanish friars who were translating codices and such? I have heard other scholars mention that teotl translates to either "cosmic energy" (no to be confused with "tonalli," which has more of a direct connection to "sun" or "day" energy) or "divine energy." But, if, for example, both "Ometeotl" and "Tezcatlipoca" are "gods," why don't they both have the -teotl suffix? It is well known that "Ometeotl" was *the* creator of the Mexica. I am confused how there can be other "gods" if everything else was a representation of Ometeotl. In other words, Ometeotl encompassed every existing thing in this universe, right? Maybe someone can clarify. Thanks, Ramiro -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Dec 4 07:19:30 2006 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 07:19:30 +0000 Subject: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- Ramiro Medrano wrote: > I have read how many scholars believe the word "teotl" translates to > "god," but I am not sure from where they take this belief. Maybe from > the Spanish friars who were translating codices and such? > I have heard other scholars mention that teotl translates to either > "cosmic energy" (no to be confused with "tonalli," which has more of > a direct connection to "sun" or "day" energy) or "divine energy." > But, if, for example, both "Ometeotl" and > "Tezcatlipoca" are "gods", why don't they both have the -teotl > suffix? Very many men have names which do not end in "-man". > It is well known that "Ometeotl" was *the* creator of the Mexica. I > am confused how there can be other "gods" if everything else was a > representation of Ometeotl. It is similar in Hinduism. Some say that all of their gods are aspects of one god, but others talk of separate gods. It is similar in Christianity with "3 or 1?": God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit: the mystery of the Trinity. > In other words, Ometeotl encompassed every existing thing in this > universe, right? In Hinduism it is smewhat similar with some beliefs about Brahma or the Brahman or Parabrahman: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism Without me getting any further sidetracked into religious mysticism, it seems clear to me that [teotl] = "a god", and was used by the Christians to mean "God". Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Mon Dec 4 17:29:59 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 11:29:59 -0600 Subject: two fun things Message-ID: Listeros, We came across two fun things in today's morning session. 1. the first construction is controversial, because two girls from one town said its good, but right now, another is saying that it isn't. Normally the preterite agentive suffix "-yoh" (covered with something) is used with its imbed as a noun, although we know that it is actually an ancient verb in the preterite. Well, today we came across an instance where the verbal quality of the construction is put to use. "chilloh" means "adobado" or "covered with chilli". Its parts are "chil-li" + "-yoh". But in the Huasteca you can also say (here is the controversial part): "chillohtoc", "ha sido adobado" or "está adobado". The breakdown is "chilloh" + "-ti" + "o" + "c (preterite)". We know that "ti ligature" auxiliary verb formations can only be stuck on a preterite stem. So it seems that at least for some native speakers, the "-yoh" still has some its verbal qualities (in addition to the fact that its plural is "-yohqueh"). I may have to recant later... 2. For me at least, it's always been a problem trying to explain why on the one hand, the "-can" locative suffix is stuck on preterite verb formations (with the "-ca" actually being the older preterite ending), and on the other hand, it can be stuck on a regular noun (in which case, the "-ca-" isn't part of a verbal formation). Well, I'm not any closer to being able to expain this, but I do have some new data to add to the mess. In older Nahuatl you would say, "oncan" or "occan" for "in two places", and "excan" for "in three places". In the Huasteca they say "oncac" and "excac". So here we have the locative "-c" added to a number by means of a "ligature" which usually takes the locative "-n". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx www.macehualli.org  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cberry at cine.net Mon Dec 4 19:47:03 2006 From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 11:47:03 -0800 Subject: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Dec 2006, Ramiro Medrano wrote: > I have read how many scholars believe the word "teotl" translates to > "god," but I am not sure from where they take this belief. Maybe from > the Spanish friars who were translating codices and such? [snip] I'm an amateur in this field, but I posted a few years ago on my own understanding of 'teotl', and nobody laughed at me (in my hearing, anyway): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0001d&L=nahuat-l&P=2980 -- ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ =+= "You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." - Lord Phillips of Sudbury _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ced44 at cam.ac.uk Mon Dec 4 20:17:14 2006 From: ced44 at cam.ac.uk (Caroline Dodds) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:17:14 -0000 Subject: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl Message-ID: Dear Ramiro, It's rather an old book, but Arild Hvidtfeldt's 'Teotl and *ixiptlatli: some central conceptions in ancient Mexican religion with a general introduction on cult and myth' specifically considers the issue of 'teotl' (Copenhagen, 1958) in detail with extended quotation and references. It was based on his thesis I believe, and although much of the surrounding literature has moved on, it remains a valuable and detailed study and well worth a look for anyone interested in this issue, because it is so closely focused on this issue (alongside that of ixiptla). Best wishes, Caroline ------ Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Email: ced44 at cam.ac.uk _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From smielke at famsi.org Tue Dec 5 19:26:57 2006 From: smielke at famsi.org (Sandy Mielke) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:26:57 -0500 Subject: Mail Delivery Error Message-ID: To All, There was a minor glitch in the listserv mail system yesterday and today (Dec. 4-5). If you sent mail to the Aztlan list and it was returned to you, please submit it again. Sorry for the confusion and I apologize for the inconvenience. Thank you, Sandy Mielke www.famsi.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Dec 5 19:28:34 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:28:34 -0500 Subject: two fun things Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:37:10 -0500 (EST) From: R. Joe Campbell To: John Sullivan , Nahua language and culture discussion Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] two fun things Please pardon the repetition if it happens -- my server indicated that my first attempt at sending it fizzled... >8-( John, I doubt that you'll need to recant on this one. The pieces of evidence for verbal origin of -yo(h)/(tl), -eh, and -huah are sprinkled around in "older" Nahuatl too. I was just e-conversing with another friend about this topic, maybe e-grousing just a little bit that although Andrews points out their verbal nature, there is no evidence given about why one would believe it, evidence of the sort that all linguists-in-training in the twentieth century were brow-beaten into including in their solutions to problems. Some examples of -yo: copalloque (FC) lords of copal iyauhyoque (FC) lords of incense /y/ is evidenced by the doubling of the /l/; -que originates as a preterit plural suffix cuauhtenanyotoc (FC) wooden barriers are standing cuauhtenamitl is embedded in -yo as in your example, -t[i]oc only compounds with the preterit form of verbs; Some examples of -eh: matemeque[h]que (FC) those who wear armbands (note: te[tl]-mecatl) (matemecatl appears both in Molina and FC as "bracelet") chalchiuhmacuexe[h]que (FC) those who have green stone bracelets -que originates as a preterit plural suffix chane[h]caconetl child born within the household the -ca nominalizer forms a unit that compounds (N-N) with conetl tocaye[h]toc (FC) it remains having a name -t[i]oc only compounds with the preterit form of verbs; macoche[h]tica (FC) embracing -ti-ca (be) only compounds with the preterit form verbs Some examples of -huah: cotzehuahua[h]que (FC) those who have leather bands on their calves (note compound of cotztli-ehuatl) -que originates as a preterit plural suffix tlatquihua[h]toc those who have property -t[i]oc only compounds with the preterit form of verbs; Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From smielke at famsi.org Tue Dec 5 19:47:28 2006 From: smielke at famsi.org (Sandy Mielke) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:47:28 -0500 Subject: Mail Delivery Error and Searching Message-ID: Hello all, The reason there was a minor glitch in the mail server was because I was installing new software to enable a search within the list archives. As you will see on the archive page, there is a new search section. This currently does not work and it will not work until I re-archive all the mailing lists. Please be patient while I add this functionality to the list. I will send another email when the search is working. Thank you for your patience, Sandy Mielke Aztlan List Admin www.famsi.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ramiro_Medrano at csumb.edu Tue Dec 5 23:11:01 2006 From: Ramiro_Medrano at csumb.edu (Ramiro Medrano) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 15:11:01 -0800 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl Message-ID: Thank you all for your responses... >Very many men have names which do not end in "-man". Right, well, then, is there any reason why some "gods" have this suffix and some don't? Is it simply a name, or does the name carry with itself a form of higher reverence? > > >It is similar in Hinduism. Some say that all of their gods are aspects >of one god, but others talk of separate gods. > >It is similar in Christianity with "3 or 1?": God and Jesus and the >Holy Spirit: the mystery of the Trinity. Well, then, by the same token, shouldn't Christianity be considered a religion of many gods? If Mexicayotl is considered polytheistic because of the "various representations of Ometeotl," shouldn't then Christianity be viewed the same way? > > >Without me getting any further sidetracked into religious mysticism, it >seems clear to me that [teotl] = "a god", and was used by the >Christians to mean "God". I'm not too convinced, but I appreciate your input. I liked Mr. Berry's interpretation of teotl with the word "teomazatl" (meaning "horse") as a challenge to its meaning of "god." Surely the Mexica weren't as simple-minded to believe that an animal they had never before seen (but which resembles a deer) was a form of deer-god. Does "teotl" translate to "inexplicable," "powerful," "untouchable," or maybe even "divine"? It makes sense to me. > > Ramiro -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cberry at cine.net Wed Dec 6 02:06:11 2006 From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:06:11 -0800 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Ramiro Medrano wrote: > Does "teotl" translate to "inexplicable," "powerful," "untouchable," or > maybe even "divine"? It makes sense to me. My attempt at a single-word translation is "supernatural", in both the senses of that word. A horse is a "supernatural deer" in the sense that it is shaped like a deer, but is bigger and stronger than a deer, and behaves very differently from a deer. Thus it is "outside nature". A god is "supernatural" in a different (but ultimately related) sense. So for example "Ometeotl" is "supernatural duality", the concept of "two" expressed outside all normal experience and natural limits. -- ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ =+= "You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." - Lord Phillips of Sudbury _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Dec 5 23:15:35 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:15:35 -0600 Subject: -toc Message-ID: Listeros, I have a question regarding one of the many problems I am encountering while trying to do a dictionary. In modern Huastecan Nahuatl, auxiliary verb constructions in "-toc" can have two different but related meanings, depending on the main verb. The first meaning is the present perfect (antepresente). So, for example, from "ninehnemi", "I walk", we go to "ninehnentoc", "I have walked". Pretty much all verbs can work like this. However, some verbs, while taking this meaning with the "-toc", can have another meaning: the state resulting from having completed that action. So, for example, from the reflexive verb "cehuia, nimo", we have "nimocehuia", "I sit down". With the "-toc" construction it will have two meanings: first, the present perfect, "nimocehuihtoc", I have sat down"; second, the resulting state, "I am seated". There are many, many examples. Here is one more: "tlamixtemi", "it gets cloudy", "tlamixtentoc", 1. "it has gotten cloudy"; 2. "it is cloudy". The first example, "ninehnentoc", like most verbs in Nahuatl will not take this second meaning. You wouldn't say, "I am walked". Now this makes sense. The class 1 verb "o", "to lay down", which forms the auxiliary construction "-toc" is a preterite-as-present verb. But isn't this perhaps what preterite-as-present verbs are all about? What does it mean when you say that a completed action refers to the present. Well, the logical answer that pops into my head is that who or whatever did that action kind of remains for a while in the state in which they were left after completing the action. And that "remaining for a while" shifts things into the present. Perhaps we should stop translating the "-toc" construction from classical Nahuatl as "someone lies doing something". It seems to me that "laying down" after doing something is a pretty good metaphor for refering to the state achieved after completing the action. Also I imagine that we could talk for a while about the many ways the Nahua mind uses the preterite tense. Now, getting closer to my question. The use of "-toc" to throw any verb into the present perfect tense is something that should be treated in a grammar book , in the chapter on auxiliary verb constructions formed with the connective "-ti-". But the fact that some verbs go into a "resultant state" mode by means of this construction, perhaps merits mention in the dictionary. My question is, should this mention be made under the entry for the main verb, or, is this "resultant state" a big enough shift of meaning to warrant a separate dictionary entry? At one point I was asking myself if perhaps the "-toc" construction is making the transition to "nounness", in other words, is "nimocehuihtoc", "I am seated", on the verge of meaning "I am a seated thing"? But then I realized that you can change tenses. For example, "nimocehuihtoz": 1. "I will have sat down", 2. "I will be seated". The other problem with option 2 is, what kind of word is this? If it's not a noun, that it's nothing more than a special use of a verb tense. Ok, so why am I still considering option 1? The native speakers feel that this meaning shift is a pretty big deal. Any suggestions? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx www.macehualli.org  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Wed Dec 6 07:04:32 2006 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 07:04:32 +0000 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony Appleyard wrote:- > Very many men have names which do not end in "-man". Ramiro Medrano wrote: > Right, well, then, is there any reason why some "gods" have this > suffix and some don't? Is it simply a name, or does the name carry > with itself a form of higher reverence? E.g. Huehueteotl means "old-man god" and needs to be distinguished from "an old man" in the ordinary sense; there is only one entity called Huitzilopochtli and so there is no need to add "-teotl" to distinguish. Anthony Appleyard wrote:- > It is similar in Hinduism. Some say that all of their gods are > aspects of one god, but others talk of separate gods. > It is similar in Christianity with "3 or 1?": God and Jesus and the > Holy Spirit: the mystery of the Trinity. Ramiro Medrano wrote: > Well, then, by the same token, shouldn't Christianity be considered a > religion of many gods? I read about one Mexican woman who laid flowers on an image of Coatlicue which had been found buried in Mexico City and that she said that "We have _three acceptable Spanish gods_, but we would have preferred to have been left with some of our own.". Ramiro Medrano wrote: > I liked Mr. Berry's interpretation of teotl with the word "teomazatl" > (meaning "horse") as a challenge to its meaning of "god". Surely the > Mexica weren't as simple-minded to believe that an animal they had > never before seen (but which resembles a deer) was a form of deer-god. [teomazatl] means "god-deer", i.e. likeliest "very strong and mighty deer" or "deer sent by God or by the gods". Citlalyani _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de Wed Dec 6 15:33:43 2006 From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:33:43 +0100 Subject: tlatquihua[h]toc In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20061205142830.01d874b0@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Thank you for the interesting examples, I'm puzzled by tlatquihua[h]toc those who have property -t[i]oc only compounds with the preterit form of verbs; 1) Why is it translated as plural? 2) What is the semantic difference between /tlatquihuah/ and /tlatquihuahtoc/ ? Maybe the latter has an inceptive or graduative value in the sense of "being in the course of becoming an owner of property"...? Greetings, Henry _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Wed Dec 6 17:11:51 2006 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:11:51 -0800 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does the distinction between natural and “supernatural” have a place in indigenous religion(s) of Mesoamerica? That is, were divine powers understood to be beyond the natural world or part of it? --- Craig Berry wrote: > On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Ramiro Medrano wrote: > > > Does "teotl" translate to "inexplicable," > "powerful," "untouchable," or > > maybe even "divine"? It makes sense to me. > > My attempt at a single-word translation is > "supernatural", in both the > senses of that word. A horse is a "supernatural > deer" in the sense that > it is shaped like a deer, but is bigger and stronger > than a deer, and > behaves very differently from a deer. Thus it is > "outside nature". A god > is "supernatural" in a different (but ultimately > related) sense. > > So for example "Ometeotl" is "supernatural duality", > the concept of "two" > expressed outside all normal experience and natural > limits. > > -- > ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > > country and value of our > ( democracy by undermining them. That's the > road to hell." > - Lord Phillips of Sudbury > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cberry at cine.net Wed Dec 6 17:37:35 2006 From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:37:35 -0800 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <20061206171152.11099.qmail@web31710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Michael Swanton wrote: > Does the distinction between natural and “supernatural” have a place in > indigenous religion(s) of Mesoamerica? That is, were divine powers > understood to be beyond the natural world or part of it? This is obviously getting into murky semantics, but I think it's clear that mesoamerican religions, like essentially all human religions, recognized a category of forces or entities which were outside or beyond the normal, everyday experience of nature. Even if (as is commonly the case) these forces were understood as the roots or sources of the visible natural world, they in themselves were not directly experienced (other than in ecstatic states, however those might be achieved). -- ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." - Lord Phillips of Sudbury _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 18:22:45 2006 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:22:45 -0600 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <20061206171152.11099.qmail@web31710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually, I think so-called "divine" powers were part of the natural world, not sharply separated from it. We have to be careful to take a very old Western model of the cosmos and universalize it to everyone, everywhere in the world. The model of Man, Nature and God dates way back in western religious history and sets up a disinction between nature and the divine or nature and the supernatural. But I don't see that in the Nahuatl material at all, really. I've written on this (Aztec Time and Sacrifice, Indiana University Press, 1998: 144-48), although I drew from others before me. Arild Hvidfeldt was one (I believe that he's already been mentioned in this conversation); but also Walter Krickeberg, who translated teotl as "kraft" or power (Altmexickanische Kulturen, Berlin, Safari-Verlag, 1966: 183-84)), and Jorge Klor de Alva, who saw teotl as an abstract concept absolutely central to Nahua religious belief and even coined the term "teoyoism" ("Spiritual Warfare in Mexico: Christianity and the Aztecs," Ph.D diss., University of California, Santa Cruz, 1980: 66) I tend to think of "-teo-" as a generic element referring to powers, sometimes quite distinctive that many, many natural objects, animals, people and various beings could have. I say this because "-teo-" appears embedded in numerous, very diverse settings, such as: teoatl (ocean, marvelous water according to Simeon), or teuhpiltontli (very terrible or bad boy according to Sahagun, see below). This latter example comes from a telling passage translated in an older article by Howard Cline ("Missing Variant Prologues and Dedication in Sahagun's Historia General: Texts and English Translations," vol. 9, Estudios de cultural de Nahuatl, UNAM, 1971: 237-52). ". . .any creature whatsoever they see to be good or bad. They call it "teutl," which means "god," in such wise that they call the sun "teutl," because of its beauty, or at least because of it frightening disposition and fierceness. From this it can be inferred that this word "teutl" can be taken for a good quality or for a bad one. This is much better recognized when it is compunded in this name, "teupilzintli," "very pretty child," teuhpiltontli," "very terrible or bad boy." Many other terms are compounded in this same way, from the meaning of which one can conjecture that this term "teutl" means a "thing extremely good or bad." It is telling that Molina gives "teoyotica" as the Nahuatl equivalency of "spirituality" ("spiritualment"), which is followed by a slew of nahuatl terms joined with it to indicate various Catholic concepts such as: teoyotica tlamachiotilli (confirmed or "chrismado". . .question, does anyone know what this means, is it an old form meaning to christen or sacralize??) or teoyotica tlatoani (bishop or prelate). I.e., he seemed to be coining terms based on a notion of spiritual power to get across the ideas of sacramental functions and functionaries in the Catholic tradition. But, I think this was an imperfect attempt to get across a cosmos based on man, nature and God (the worldview all Europeans held in Molina's time)--a world dividing the natural from the supernatural. Instead of this rather westernized (even medievalized) idea of nature and that which is beyond nature, I read all this stuff about -teo- as a very slim to no distinction between the natural and supernatural. I.e., to some degree everything is natural, but not everything shares the same powers. For example, do we really want to say that very bad boys are supernatural? They may drive us nuts naturally, but supernaturally? Nor can we say that it is all one universal power, because there is a big difference between that bad little boy and the powerful ocean (teoatl), both in their character and what they are able to do and effect. In other words, I think it is a cosmos filled with various powers that make things happen and those powerful event and their perpetrators can include anything from a very nasty drought caused by the sun to the pleasure of a beautiful child or the disruption in family harmony when a boy misbehaves. Kay Read Dept. of Religious Studies DePaul University, Chicago On 12/6/06, Michael Swanton wrote: > > Does the distinction between natural and > "supernatural" have a place in indigenous religion(s) > of Mesoamerica? That is, were divine powers understood > to be beyond the natural world or part of it? > > > --- Craig Berry wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Ramiro Medrano wrote: > > > > > Does "teotl" translate to "inexplicable," > > "powerful," "untouchable," or > > > maybe even "divine"? It makes sense to me. > > > > My attempt at a single-word translation is > > "supernatural", in both the > > senses of that word. A horse is a "supernatural > > deer" in the sense that > > it is shaped like a deer, but is bigger and stronger > > than a deer, and > > behaves very differently from a deer. Thus it is > > "outside nature". A god > > is "supernatural" in a different (but ultimately > > related) sense. > > > > So for example "Ometeotl" is "supernatural duality", > > the concept of "two" > > expressed outside all normal experience and natural > > limits. > > > > -- > > ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > > + "You do not secure the liberty of our > > country and value of our > > ( democracy by undermining them. That's the > > road to hell." > > - Lord Phillips of Sudbury > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 18:37:50 2006 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:37:50 -0600 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <3eb115df0612061027k2597d717je4ce2103ee66cf7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry. . .I didn't hit "reply all." Kay On 12/6/06, Kay Read wrote: > See what I just sent, but actually I think these forces cannot exist > without the natural things of the normal world. They have no "house" > in which to live otherwise; and therefore, they are directly > experienced both within one's own body and the corporeal, material > bodies of other natural things. See: Lopez Austin's Human Body > (1988) for a great deal more on this topic. > > Again, be careful about universalizing our own deep-seated and > historically long cultural assumptions about reality to other > cultures. > > Just more thoughts on this. . . > > Kay Read > Dept. of Religious Studies > DePaul University, Chicago > > On 12/6/06, Craig Berry wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Michael Swanton wrote: > > > > > Does the distinction between natural and "supernatural" have a place in > > > indigenous religion(s) of Mesoamerica? That is, were divine powers > > > understood to be beyond the natural world or part of it? > > > > This is obviously getting into murky semantics, but I think it's clear > > that mesoamerican religions, like essentially all human religions, > > recognized a category of forces or entities which were outside or beyond > > the normal, everyday experience of nature. Even if (as is commonly the > > case) these forces were understood as the roots or sources of the visible > > natural world, they in themselves were not directly experienced (other > > than in ecstatic states, however those might be achieved). > > > > -- > > ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > > + "You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our > > ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." > > - Lord Phillips of Sudbury > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cberry at cine.net Wed Dec 6 19:25:03 2006 From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:25:03 -0800 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <3eb115df0612061037x5ac7c9c5s5b69199767242292@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 12/6/06, Kay Read wrote: > > See what I just sent, but actually I think these forces cannot exist > > without the natural things of the normal world. They have no "house" > > in which to live otherwise; and therefore, they are directly > > experienced both within one's own body and the corporeal, material > > bodies of other natural things. See: Lopez Austin's Human Body > > (1988) for a great deal more on this topic. But they are still distinct from the natural forms in which they have existence; otherwise there would be no separate concepts of "maize" and "Cinteotl" (just for example). So, to turn the question around, what distinguishes the various divine powers (named by the 'teotl' concept in many cases) from the natural objects and processes with which they are associated? -- ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ =+= "You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." - Lord Phillips of Sudbury _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 19:45:26 2006 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:45:26 -0600 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good question! I've heard that explained in other more or less analogous Native American contexts as an idea of inner and outer forms. The sun is being with will and power to move according to its nature of sun-ness (Clara Sue Kidwell, "Systems of Knowledge," in America in 1492: The World of the Indian Peoples before the Arrival of Columbus, ed. Alvin M. Josephy Jr., NY, Alfred A. Knopf, 369-403). I.e., the outer form is shaped and motivated by the inner form. I've always kinda liked that way of thinking about it. Another western model that comes into play here unconsciously is the rather Platonic notion of separating form and ideal form. But, I don't think that's what's really happening here. The inner form may be housed in the outer, but neither could exist without the other and neither is some immaterial, spiritual ideal. This is closer to the idea that the heart keeps the outer body alive in particular ways (and the concept of yoli is very important. . .check out Lopez Austin, if you haven't already). The inner heart and the outer body in which it sits are separate entities, but neither could function without the other. In the case of Cinteotl, how about this? Maize is the outer form that is filled with teo, making it Cinteotl, who is a being that can be depicted both as corn plants and as a "deity" with particular iconographic traits. Remember all the pictures of ears of corn being shown as little heads sticking out of the husks. Corn cobs themselves are beings, who sometimes appear as individual ears and other times appears as a kind of idea of overarching idea of corn-ness in the form of Cinteotl. But the form is naturally depicted as a human-like being with the powers of corn. Kay On 12/6/06, Craig Berry wrote: > > On 12/6/06, Kay Read wrote: > > > See what I just sent, but actually I think these forces cannot exist > > > without the natural things of the normal world. They have no "house" > > > in which to live otherwise; and therefore, they are directly > > > experienced both within one's own body and the corporeal, material > > > bodies of other natural things. See: Lopez Austin's Human Body > > > (1988) for a great deal more on this topic. > > But they are still distinct from the natural forms in which they have > existence; otherwise there would be no separate concepts of "maize" and > "Cinteotl" (just for example). So, to turn the question around, what > distinguishes the various divine powers (named by the 'teotl' concept in > many cases) from the natural objects and processes with which they are > associated? > > -- > ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > =+= "You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our > ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." > - Lord Phillips of Sudbury > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Dec 7 05:35:06 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 00:35:06 -0500 Subject: tlatquihua[h]toc Message-ID: Henry, 1) I was careless. I have the word in my database, still without a gloss, and I looked at the sentence translation in Dibble and Anderson's edition of Book 6. 2) I think the semantic content of -toc in "older" Nahuatl was probably that of "progressive" aspect, probably *leaning* on the literal meaning of {o}, somewhat the way Mexican Spanish uses "andar". "Anda entristecido" carries not only the notion of a continuative state, but also that of motion. -toc and -mani are used similarly (I think)to convey the idea of ongoingness by hinting at the literal meaning without claiming it. I put the piece of text in question at the bottom of this message; "tlatquihuatoc" is in #10956. Iztayohmeh, Joe > I'm puzzled by > > tlatquihua[h]toc those who have property > -t[i]oc only compounds with the preterit form of verbs; > > 1) Why is it translated as plural? > 2) What is the semantic difference between /tlatquihuah/ and > /tlatquihuahtoc/ ? > Maybe the latter has an inceptive or graduative value in the sense of > "being in the course of becoming an owner of property"...? 10948. nopiltze xontlachia in monextitlan, in motlecuillan, "o my son, look in thy ashes, in thy hearth." 10949. cococ, teopouhqui quiquiztoc, timalihui in icnotlacayotl, in nentlacayotl: cococ, teopouhqui macho, timalihui in cuitlaxcolpitzactli, [all is] permeated by pain, by affliction; misery, inhumanity dominate; pain, affliction are known; starvation dominateth. 10950. atontonamiqui in toquezpan in toquechtlan ompilcac: we are in want as to that which hangeth from our hips, from our necks. 10951. nelli mach in ticmamalacachoa, in ompa huallauh ehecatl, ompa ticmana. in truth we turn it around and around: from whence cometh the wind, there we place it. 10952. auh tla xitechitta and look at us! 10953. tizacuahuatinemi, tomizauhtinemi in ipaltzinco toteucyo tloque, nahuaque: by the grace of our lord, the lord of the near, of the nigh, we go dying of hunger and thirst; we go like skeletons. 10954. auh in huecapa in moteiccahuan, in mohueltihuan xiquimonitta, and look at thy male cousins, thy female cousins. Florentine Codex [p. 912] 10955. cuix onoac, cuix yeloac, cuix ixtonatoque in ipaltzinco tloque, nahuaque do they perhaps reside, do they perhaps exist, do they enjoy abundance by the grace of the lord of the near, of the nigh? 10956. cuix tlatquihuatoc, cuix netimalolotoc: do they perhaps remain possessors of property? do they perhaps remain glorified? 10957. ahtiquimitta inic monemitia, canst thou not see how they live? 10958. ca timalihui in tlalticpac, ca ihiyohuilo, ca tlaciahua: for it spreadeth on earth; for there is drudgery; all are fatigued. 10959. quenin xihualmotzonteconacocui o, quenin xaquetza o, with that, how canst thou be proud, arrogant? 10960. amo za tlahuanayotl caci, amo tequi xolopicayotl o, that would be but virtual drunkenness, extreme foolishness. 10961. in iuhcan tiyol i, in iuhcan titlacat, i, this is how thou camest forth; this is how thou wert born. 10962. auh in iuhcan mocalitic i, auh in iuhque in, moncahuan, mehcahuan, and this is how it is in thy house, and so are these of thy household, thy residents. 10963. intla quecin ximochihua: if thou wouldst in some manner suffer! 10964. auh quen ahtitoloz, quen ahtimopiloz, and wilt thou not so bow thy head, wilt thou not so hang thy head? 10965. in iuhcan timoyoliti i. for in such a time as this wert thou born. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de Thu Dec 7 11:31:16 2006 From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:31:16 +0100 Subject: tlatquihua[h]toc In-Reply-To: <20061207003506.94vlbjqf40wcoscw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, thank you for clarification and the context of the example. I was wondering whether a referent classified as "inanimate" could be a /tlatquihuah/ at all, and in that case both singular and plural would be OK of course. But then, plural marking in general seems not to be obligatory even with "animate" referents, as your text fragment shows. Yes, the progessive/continuative meaning of /-tok/ is the prevalent one in modern Central Guerrero nahuatl, too. By graduative (which in some North American languages is morphologically marked) I meant a sense of "slowly growing into a certain state". So taking up the helpful "andar"-analogy, /tlatquihuahtoc/ = (?)"anda enriqueciendose" or (?)"anda con riquezas" or "se queda con riquezas"... Dibble and Anderson chose the last option. Probably then this is not a commonplace construction but due to poetic style, giving a nice sequence of /-toc/-forms. Tlahzocamati hueyi Henry _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Dec 7 15:32:33 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:32:33 -0500 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <3eb115df0612061022u2db49ab2l8ffe065cf34a2b3f@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: At 01:22 PM 12/6/2006, Kay Read wrote: >nahuatl terms joined with it to indicate various Catholic concepts >such as: teoyotica tlamachiotilli (confirmed or "chrismado". . >.question, does anyone know what this means, is it an old form meaning >to christen or sacralize??) Yes. Part of the ritual of Confirmation (and baptism) is to anoint the person with chrism (sanctified oil) It is the outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace that is imparted through the sacrament. With Baptism the other sign is the water. With confirmation the other sign is a slap on the face from the bishop who administers the sacrament. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 15:58:57 2006 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 09:58:57 -0600 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20061207102333.01c77e98@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Fritz, I kinda thought that it was referring to the oil used in the rituals. Kay On 12/7/06, John F. Schwaller wrote: > At 01:22 PM 12/6/2006, Kay Read wrote: > >nahuatl terms joined with it to indicate various Catholic concepts > >such as: teoyotica tlamachiotilli (confirmed or "chrismado". . > >.question, does anyone know what this means, is it an old form meaning > >to christen or sacralize??) > > > Yes. Part of the ritual of Confirmation (and baptism) is to anoint > the person with chrism (sanctified oil) It is the outward and > visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace that is imparted > through the sacrament. With Baptism the other sign is the > water. With confirmation the other sign is a slap on the face from > the bishop who administers the sacrament. > > > > > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > > 315-267-2100 > 315-267-2496 fax > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From brokaw at buffalo.edu Thu Dec 7 17:23:26 2006 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:23:26 -0500 Subject: -toc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi John, This is a tough question. My initial inclination is the same as yours. I haven't thought about this enough to feel strongly one way or another. Or maybe I'm just apathetic by nature. But in case it is useful, I'll argue for my initial inclination. In spite of the fact that the precise meaning is a little different, it is a verb form that takes different endings, as you pointed out. I just checked the rather old dictionary that was left behind in my office when I moved in, and as an example, adjectives derived from verbal forms like "eaten" and "stacked" do not have their own entries. It seems to me that this is sort of similar to the case you are dealing with. It is a verbal form that also can function as an adjective. In the English case, one might argue compellingly that these words should have their own entries, because the adjectival form is not inflected or conjugated any further; that is to say when it functions as an ajective, it no longer behaves like a verb. I don't know if other dictionaries do this, but the 1950 edition of the American College Dictionary doesn't. But in the case of this -toc form, as you point out, it behaves like a verb. I don't know whether it would be feasible or not, but maybe you could include this and other basic conjugations in the dictionary entry for the root form of the verb similar to the way English dictionaries do. And in cases like this, you could always include these nuances in the dictionary entry. You know how dictionaries often include examples of usages of words that produce variations in meaning with the defintions of these usages. Although maybe the regularity of this form would not require it. This is not to say that your dictionary should necessarily be modeled exactly on the conventions of English dictionaries. But it seems to me that the formal characteristics and the formal behavior of a linguistic element is a pretty good basis upon which to construct the kind of classificatory system employed in dictionaries and grammars. I think I understand your hesitation based on the semantic sensibilities of your informants. I can't really speak to that specifically, but I suspect that in a project like this, it is probably impossible to avoid certain incongruities or tensions between the structural features of the Grammatical and Semantic construct and the innate sensibilities of all native speakers. For one thing, as you know better than I do, all native speakers don't agree. And secondly, the Grammatical and Semantic construct involved in writing a grammar and a dictionary exists in a different sort of space, has a different sort of ontology; overlapping in significant ways to be sure, but different nonetheless; it can never be an exact reflection of actual pre-Grammatical with a capital "G" linguistic practice. So, perhaps the terms incongruity and tension aren't even quite the right words, but it is something like that. A certain kind of incommensurability that often pops up. I think the only reason why English grammar appears to us to be so well-suited to describing the language is because there has been such a long dialogical relationship between written and spoken English. When the original Grammarians were first trying to "tame" English by establishing a prescriptive grammar, I suspect they had similar problems. It is the inevitable issue of creating universal categories and a universal system in order to account for particulars and more fluid practices. What I have called a Grammar with a capital "G," is a prescriptive system that aspires to be clear cut in this regard. But the problem is that what I have called a grammar with a small "g" (the universality and systematicity inherent in any given language) is not always so nice and neat but rather sort of messy in many instances. Sorry for the digression. I don't mean to be preachy, and I've argued this sort of thing with Jose on the list before. In any case, I guess my point is that it seems to me that the best way to go about making these decisions is to establish structural criteria. In this particular case, this is a verbal construction that is regular and used with many verbs in the same way. So I don't think it really needs its own entry. But if possible, I think it would be nice to include this -toc form under the entry for the root form of the verb that you are using for the dictionary along with other basic conjugations. Just some thoughts. Galen Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > > --Apple-Mail-2-222258631 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=UTF-8; > delsp=yes; > format=flowed > > Listeros, > I have a question regarding one of the many problems I am =20 > encountering while trying to do a dictionary. In modern Huastecan > =20 > Nahuatl, auxiliary verb constructions in "-toc" can have two =20 > different but related meanings, depending on the main verb. The first > =20= > > meaning is the present perfect (antepresente). So, for example, from > =20 > "ninehnemi", "I walk", we go to "ninehnentoc", "I have walked". =20 > Pretty much all verbs can work like this. However, some verbs, while > =20 > taking this meaning with the "-toc", can have another meaning: the > =20 > state resulting from having completed that action. So, for example, > =20 > from the reflexive verb "cehuia, nimo", we have "nimocehuia", "I sit > =20 > down". With the "-toc" construction it will have two meanings: first, > =20= > > the present perfect, "nimocehuihtoc", I have sat down"; second, the > =20 > resulting state, "I am seated". There are many, many examples. Here > =20 > is one more: "tlamixtemi", "it gets cloudy", "tlamixtentoc", 1. "it > =20 > has gotten cloudy"; 2. "it is cloudy". The first example, =20 > "ninehnentoc", like most verbs in Nahuatl will not take this second > =20 > meaning. You wouldn't say, "I am walked". > Now this makes sense. The class 1 verb "o", "to lay down", which = > =20 > forms the auxiliary construction "-toc" is a preterite-as-present > =20 > verb. But isn't this perhaps what preterite-as-present verbs are all > =20 > about? What does it mean when you say that a completed action refers > =20 > to the present. Well, the logical answer that pops into my head is > =20 > that who or whatever did that action kind of remains for a while in > =20 > the state in which they were left after completing the action. And > =20 > that "remaining for a while" shifts things into the present. Perhaps > =20 > we should stop translating the "-toc" construction from classical > =20 > Nahuatl as "someone lies doing something". It seems to me that =20 > "laying down" after doing something is a pretty good metaphor for > =20 > refering to the state achieved after completing the action. > Also I imagine that we could talk for a while about the many = > ways =20 > the Nahua mind uses the preterite tense. > Now, getting closer to my question. The use of "-toc" to throw = > any =20 > verb into the present perfect tense is something that should be =20 > treated in a grammar book , in the chapter on auxiliary verb =20 > constructions formed with the connective "-ti-". But the fact that > =20 > some verbs go into a "resultant state" mode by means of this =20 > construction, perhaps merits mention in the dictionary. My question > =20 > is, should this mention be made under the entry for the main verb, > =20 > or, is this "resultant state" a big enough shift of meaning to =20 > warrant a separate dictionary entry? At one point I was asking myself > =20= > > if perhaps the "-toc" construction is making the transition to =20 > "nounness", in other words, is "nimocehuihtoc", "I am seated", on the > =20= > > verge of meaning "I am a seated thing"? But then I realized that you > =20 > can change tenses. For example, "nimocehuihtoz": 1. "I will have sat > =20 > down", 2. "I will be seated". The other problem with option 2 is, > =20 > what kind of word is this? If it's not a noun, that it's nothing more > =20= > > than a special use of a verb tense. > Ok, so why am I still considering option 1? The native speakers = > feel =20 > that this meaning shift is a pretty big deal. > Any suggestions? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Universidad Aut=C3=B3noma de Zacatecas > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci=C3=B3n Etnol=C3=B3gica de > Zacatecas, = > A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist=C3=B3rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M=C3=A9xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > www.macehualli.org > =EF=BF=BC > > > > > --Apple-Mail-2-222258631 > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; > boundary=Apple-Mail-3-222258631 > > > --Apple-Mail-3-222258631 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Type: text/html; > charset=ISO-8859-1 > > = > -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Listeros,
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> I have a > = > question regarding one of the many problems I am encountering while > = > trying to do a dictionary. In modern Huastecan Nahuatl, auxiliary > verb = > constructions in "-toc" can have two different but related meanings, > = > depending on the main verb. The first meaning is the present perfect > = > (antepresente). So, for example, from "ninehnemi", "I walk", we go to > = > "ninehnentoc", "I have walked". Pretty much all verbs can work like > = > this. However, some verbs, while taking this meaning with the "-toc", > = > can have another meaning: the state resulting from having completed > that = > action. So, for example, from the reflexive verb "cehuia, nimo", we > have = > "nimocehuia", "I sit down". With the "-toc" construction it will have > = > two meanings: first, the present perfect, "nimocehuihtoc", I have sat > = > down"; second, the resulting state, "I am seated". There are many, > many = > examples. Here is one more: "tlamixtemi", "it gets cloudy", = > "tlamixtentoc", 1. "it has gotten cloudy"; 2. "it is cloudy". The > first = > example, "ninehnentoc", like most verbs in Nahuatl will not take this > = > second meaning. You wouldn't say, "I am walked".
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> Now this > = > makes sense. The class 1 verb "o", "to lay down", which forms the = > auxiliary construction "-toc" is a preterite-as-present verb. But > isn't = > this perhaps what preterite-as-present verbs are all about? What does > it = > mean when you say that a completed action refers to the present. > Well, = > the logical answer that pops into my head is that who or whatever did > = > that action kind of remains for a while in the state in which they > were = > left after completing the action. And that "remaining for a while" = > shifts things into the present. Perhaps we should stop translating > the = > "-toc" construction from classical Nahuatl as "someone lies doing = > something". It seems to me that "laying down" after doing something > is a = > pretty good metaphor for refering to the state achieved after > completing = > the action.=A0
style=3D"white-space:pre"> Also=A0I imagine that we could = > talk for a while about the many ways the Nahua mind uses the > preterite = > tense.
style=3D"white-space:pre">= > Now, getting closer to my question. The use of "-toc" to = > throw any verb into the present perfect tense is something that > should = > be treated in a grammar book , in the chapter on auxiliary verb = > constructions formed with the connective "-ti-". But the fact that > some = > verbs go into a "resultant state" mode by means of this construction, > = > perhaps merits mention in the dictionary. My question is, should this > = > mention be made under the entry for the main verb, or, is this = > "resultant state" a big enough shift of meaning to warrant a separate > = > dictionary entry? At one point I was asking myself if perhaps the > "-toc" = > construction is making the transition to "nounness", in other words, > is = > "nimocehuihtoc", "I am seated", on the verge of meaning "I am a > seated = > thing"? But then I realized that you can change tenses. For example, > = > "nimocehuihtoz": 1. "I will have sat down", 2. "I will be seated". > The = > other problem with option 2 is, what kind of word is this? If it's > not a = > noun, that it's nothing more than a special use of a verb = > tense.=A0
style=3D"white-space:pre"> Ok, so why am I still considering > = > option 1? The native speakers feel that this meaning shift is a > pretty = > big deal.
style=3D"white-space:pre"> Any = > suggestions?
John

class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = > border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; > = > font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; > font-weight: = > normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: > auto; = > -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = > -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = > white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = > border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; > = > font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; > font-weight: = > normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: > auto; = > -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = > -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = > white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = > border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; > = > font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; > font-weight: = > normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: > auto; = > -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = > -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = > white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = > border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; > = > font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; > font-weight: = > normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: > auto; = > -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = > -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = > white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; ">

style=3D"margin: = > 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">John Sullivan, Ph.D.

style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Profesor de lengua y > cultura = > nahua

face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px = > Helvetica">Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas

style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Instituto de Docencia e > = > Investigaci=F3n Etnol=F3gica de Zacatecas, A.C.

style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Tacuba 152, int. = > 47

face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Centro > = > Hist=F3rico

0.0px"> face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px = > Helvetica">Zacatecas, Zac. 98000

= > 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> = > 12.0px Helvetica">M=E9xico

= > 0.0px 0.0px"> 12.0px = > Helvetica">Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415

= > 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416

= > style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Domicilio: +52 (492) = > 768-6048

= > face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px > Helvetica">Celular: = > +52 (492) 118-0854

0.0px"> Helvetica"> href=3D"mailto:idiez at mac.com">idiez at mac.com

style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">www.idiez.org.mx face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px = > Helvetica">

0.0px"> face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px = > Helvetica">www.macehualli.org
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= > > --Apple-Mail-3-222258631-- > > --Apple-Mail-2-222258631-- > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Wed Dec 13 01:54:28 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:54:28 -0600 Subject: -tic Message-ID: Here goes another question: it's about nouns ending in -tic. The grammars say that the process is: 1. noun + ti = a class 1 verb which means "to become (like) that noun. 2. the class 1 verb goes into the preterite by adding "-c" (singular) and "-queh" (plural), [actually -c-Ø, singular; and -que-h, plural]. 3. this preterite form is reinterpreted as a noun which is like, or has the quality of the imbedded noun. And if I'm not mistaken, the imbedded noun can only be the combining form of: 1. a regular noun ending in -tl, tli, -li, -in, -Ø; or 2. a preterite agentive (combining form: -ca). The problem is that in modern Huastecan Nahuatl I am seeing many, many -tic forms for which there is no identifiable noun imbed, or at least the native speakers cannot identify them. Most of the time there is a related verb or set of thematic verbs, or a related agentive form by itself, but no existing noun upon which to base the - tic form. I'll give a few examples below, but the question is this. It would seem that the -tic form would need a noun imbed. So does this mean that the missing noun did exist and now is lost, or is it possible that in some cases the -tic has become independent of its original structural requirements and been able to attach to a reduced, but not-agentive verb form? A few examples: 1. cuicuilihui, "s.t. is painted"; cuicuiloa. nic., "to paint s.t."; cuicuiltic, "s.t. multicolored". 2. canahuiya, "s.t. becomes worn out"; canahua, "to shave s.t. down"; canahuac, "s.t. shaven or thinned out", canactzin, "s.t. thin", canactic, "s.t. thin, shaved down or worn out" 3. huihui, "to be crazy"; huihuitic, "a stupid or crazy person". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.macehualli.org www.idiez.org.mx  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 05:11:07 2006 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 06:11:07 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 31, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think it is quite possible that the -tic ending has become a general adjectival ending in Huasteca nahuatl (and I am not sure if it wasn't also in Classic nahuatl where there were at least some -tic adjectivals formed from verbs). In Cuentepec of Morelos Nahuatl it is productive in making new loan adjectives and blue for example is said *azultik*. Magnus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Dec 13 16:37:35 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:37:35 -0500 Subject: -tic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, This is probably a little too much off the top of my head, but I'll try to think as I write. First, I think that when we're doing grammatical descriptions of a modern Nahuatl dialect or of an older dialect like "classical", we should constantly be asking ourselves whether we think we're formulating a structural description or a historical development. When does anyone point out that some variety of the language has restructured some part of word formation? That aside, it seems to me that too frequently we find ourselves describing word formation (i.e., morphology) as if non-basic words (like tlacatl, pozoni, cuahuitl, etc.) came from some other surface words. Now stop me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the word "chantli" occurs as an independent word in any of the three Molina dictionaries; and it doesn't occur in any sentence of the Florentine Codex (only in a paragraph header on p. 275 of the Dibble and Anderson edition). Let's suppose that we had no attestation of the independent word "chantli" (or of various other normally possessed entities, like those relating to kinship). Would anybody doubt that "chan(tli)" (I always unapologetically refer to noun morphemes along with their absolutive suffixes for sake of easy identification) is a morpheme?? Its existence is supported by the occurrence of many words which are parallel to words derived from simple noun morphemes: nochan ninochantia chaneh mochantzinco teopixcachantli Comments on cuicuilihui.... I don't know enough about Huaxteca Nahuatl, so I'll refer to similar data from the 16th century. The possible morpheme "ihcuiloa:" which many people would believe to be basic is not (the causative is derived from the intransitive); the disappearance of the "ih-" is normal in reduplicated forms. "cuicuilihui" and "cuicuiltic" cannot be derived one from the other, and since -ihui intransitives and -tic (noun/adjective) are derived from nouns, I would assume the shape of the morpheme to be driven at least as deep as "ihcuilli". But since that "ih-" looks suspiciously like the one in "ihmati" and possibly the one in "ihpotza" -- and "cuilli" *might* be a patientive noun derived from "cui" (related, among other things to carving and hand strokes), I could imagine a non-cautious analyst going beyond "ihcuilli" as the morpheme. Comments on canahuiya.... Using the criterion of "where you have to start to get to the various word forms", I would assume that there has to be potential form "canactli", which is a common patientive noun form from verbs which end in -ahua... and "canahuac" looks like the so-called preterit of "canahua". "canahuiya" looks suspiciously like a 'back-formation', similar to the "nipinahua / nipinahui" formation, in which some dialects adjust the already intransitive "nipinahua" (ending in -a, a little unusual for intransitives) to the more common intransitive -i ending. ...and the -ya certainly looks like an intransitive verber: iztaya, xocoya, hueiya, poyeya, etc, but it doesn't normally (as in "things that I know about") go on something that is already a verb (except in the case of verbings with -ti [become] (e.g., ati[y]a, ahtlehti[y]a, camohpalti[y]a, ceti[y]a, pocti[y]a, telpochti[y]a, tepitzti[y]a, zoquiti[y]a, etc.). Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Dec 13 17:02:07 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:02:07 -0500 Subject: -tic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had to blink when I saw my message come up on the screen. Obviously, "(like tlacatl, pozoni, cuahuitl, etc.)" did *not* apply to 'non-basic words' -- it applied to 'some other surface words'. ...and, no, it was not my word processor's fault; it is clinically known as a "before noon mental processing error". And my proofreader is giving a final exam right now.... > > That aside, it seems to me that too frequently we find ourselves > describing word formation (i.e., morphology) as if non-basic words (like > tlacatl, pozoni, cuahuitl, etc.) came from some other surface words. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Dec 13 18:16:31 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:16:31 -0500 Subject: Archive Searching Message-ID: Colleagues: As owner of FAMSI's Nahuatl Listserv I am happy to announce a new feature to our web interface. Thanks to the hard work of FAMSI web administrators (especially Sandy Mielke),the Nahuatl ARCHIVES are now fully indexed for dynamic searches. The Nahuatl ARCHIVES is a complete listing of all messages sent through the Nahuatl listserv since its move to FAMSI (earlier this year). Previously, these messages were only categorized by date. Now, when you visit the archives you may conduct a keyword search (such as an author, site name, or other pertinent term). I hope this will be a valued resource for not only list members, but those who happen to visit the web site for archived information. The Nahuatl ARCHIVES can be found online at: http://www.famsi.org/pipermail/nahuatl/ All messages sent prior to our switch to FAMSI (i.e., before 2006) can still be found at the "old" Nahuatl archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/nahuat-l.html John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Dec 13 19:27:12 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:27:12 -0500 Subject: Summer Nahuatl Message-ID: From: Joshua Beck [mailto:jpbeck at uchicago.edu] Date: December 13, 2006 During summer 2007, the Center for Latin American Studies at the University of Chicago will offer Intensive Aymara (http://clas.uchicago.edu/aymara.shtml) and, in collaboration with Yale University, Intensive Nahuatl (http://www.yale.edu/ycias/lais/summer.htm). Please contact Josh Beck at or (773) 702-8420 for further details. Foreign Language and Area Studies Fellowships The Summer 2007 Aymara and Nahuatl programs meet the minimum requirements to be eligible for Foreign Language and Area Studies (FLAS) fellowship funding. Graduate students at institutions that award Summer FLAS fellowships should contact their home institution's Center for Latin American Studies for instructions about how to apply. Students may also apply for FLAS fellowships through the University of Chicago Center for Latin American Studies (please see http://grad-affairs.uchicago.edu/programs/flas.html for application information) and, for the Nahuatl program, through Yale University's Council on Latin American and Iberian Studies (please contact for more information) . CIC Traveling Scholar Program Graduate students at CIC institutions (University of Illinois-Chicago , University of Illinois-Urbana/Champaign Indiana University, University of Iowa, University of Michigan, University of Minnesota, Michigan State University, Northwestern University, Ohio State University, Pennsylvania State University, Purdue University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee) may directly enroll in the Aymara institute without change in registration or increase in tuition through the CIC Traveling Scholars program. For application details, visit http://www.cic.uiuc.edu/programs/TravelingScholars/index.shtml. Josh Beck Associate Director for Programs & Development Center for Latin American Studies University of Chicago 5848 South University Avenue Chicago, IL 60637 tel. (773) 702-8420 fax (773) 702-1755 http://clas.uchicago.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lingoman at mac.com Fri Dec 15 07:24:07 2006 From: lingoman at mac.com (Doug Barr) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:24:07 -0800 Subject: Contraction? Message-ID: I've been going through *Rules of the Aztec Language* and referring to the wonderful website http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/ - since the book doesn't translate any of its words, just gives the forms - and I found this example sentence "Tla: quimocaquitin tla:catl," translated as "Que le seigneur daigne nous entendre," "May the lord deign to hear us." My main question is, does this represent "Tla: quimocaquiti in tla:catl," with the optative, and the determinative "in" shorn of its vowel and added to "quimocaquiti"? I'm also curious about the translation given as "hear *us*," vs. the Na:huatl singular object prefix and singular noun "tla:catl." Is this a Na:huatl stylistic thing? Tlazohcamati... _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lingoman at mac.com Fri Dec 15 07:38:26 2006 From: lingoman at mac.com (Doug Barr) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:38:26 -0800 Subject: Um, how many object prefix slots, again? Message-ID: OK, so I'm struggling with verbs, and I read in the archives that the verb only has two object prefix slots, but I've only seen one used up to now. Then I read in *Rules of the Aztec Language* and on a website (http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahugram.html#sec5) that there is another prefix -im- that can be used for third person plural (animate) objects if necessary. Okay, that's the second slot. Got it. Then I look more closely at the example given in the book, "Xine:chintlacualtili in nochcahua:n," "Feed my sheep for me." I parse that as "xi-ne:ch-in-TLA-cua-lti-li," "you.imperative-(for).me- them-something-eat-[causative]-[applicative]," and am very confused by the presence of "-tla-" in the verb - not so much what it's doing (providing a non-specific object for "cua") as that it seems to be occupying a third object prefix slot. Since "cua" occurs without "tla-" I'm guessing that it isn't an intrinsic part of the verb like the first syllable of "tlazohtla" - so what gives? Tlazohcamati again, Doug _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Fri Dec 15 14:54:44 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:54:44 -0600 Subject: Um, how many object prefix slots, again? In-Reply-To: <011E6E87-7496-4AAF-AD3A-F02F7A170E67@mac.com> Message-ID: Doug, Actually, in Classical Nahuatl there are four object prefix slots: specific, reflexive, non-specific human, and non-specific non-human. Normally, only one specific object can be represented by a prefix, even if there are multiple specific objects in a sentence. The exception to this is when one of the multiple specific objects is third person plural. In this case, two specific object prefixes can appear in the verb. The third person one, which would appear by itself as "quim", appears in this case as "im". This is what you are seeing in your example, "xinechintlacualtili in nochcahuan", "Feed my sheep for me". The verb is "tlacualtia, nic," and it can be broken down as "tlacual(li)", "food", + "-tia", "to provide s.t. to s.o" = "to feed s.o." or in this case the sheep. This verb, "tlacualtia" is then given an applicative suffix, which adds an object, giving, "tlacualtilia, nic," "to feed s.o. for s.o.". You now have two specific objects, the sheep and me. Normally, in this case only "me", being the most animate of the two objects, would appear as a prefix, but since the other specific object is third person plural it appears as the "in". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Dec 15, 2006, at 1:38 AM, Doug Barr wrote: > OK, so I'm struggling with verbs, and I read in the archives that the > verb only has two object prefix slots, but I've only seen one used up > to now. Then I read in *Rules of the Aztec Language* and on a website > (http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahugram.html#sec5) that > there is another prefix -im- that can be used for third person plural > (animate) objects if necessary. Okay, that's the second slot. Got it. > > Then I look more closely at the example given in the book, > "Xine:chintlacualtili in nochcahua:n," "Feed my sheep for me." I > parse that as "xi-ne:ch-in-TLA-cua-lti-li," "you.imperative-(for).me- > them-something-eat-[causative]-[applicative]," and am very confused > by the presence of "-tla-" in the verb - not so much what it's doing > (providing a non-specific object for "cua") as that it seems to be > occupying a third object prefix slot. Since "cua" occurs without > "tla-" I'm guessing that it isn't an intrinsic part of the verb like > the first syllable of "tlazohtla" - so what gives? > > Tlazohcamati again, > Doug > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Fri Dec 15 14:56:00 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:56:00 -0600 Subject: Contraction? In-Reply-To: <285411D7-9A1B-4AAE-8431-E175320AEE20@mac.com> Message-ID: Doug, The first thing you would think about this phase is that it is in the admonitive mode, because of the "-tin" ending and the initial "tla" particle. But this can't be, because the verb, "caqui", "to hear s.t." only takes one object, and your phrase has two, "qui", and "mo". What we assume now is that the final "-n" of the verb was just stuck on there (perhaps the phonologists can comment on that). Anyway, we end up with "tla quimocaquiti tlacatl", "may the lord hear it", a common phrase in Nahuatl petitions. You have the verb "caqui", "to hear something" in the reverential form: reflexive prefix "mo" + verb + causative suffix. This leaves us with one specific object, "qui", which is what the verb would take anyway. The class 3 verb is conjugated in the optative mode, loosing its final vowel: "caquitia" > "caquiti". In optative sentences like this one that don't have a second person subject, two initial particles can be used, "ma" and "tla", which signals a higher degree of politeness. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx  On Dec 15, 2006, at 1:24 AM, Doug Barr wrote: > I've been going through *Rules of the Aztec Language* and referring > to the wonderful website http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/ - since > the book doesn't translate any of its words, just gives the forms - > and I found this example sentence "Tla: quimocaquitin tla:catl," > translated as "Que le seigneur daigne nous entendre," "May the lord > deign to hear us." > > My main question is, does this represent "Tla: quimocaquiti in > tla:catl," with the optative, and the determinative "in" shorn of its > vowel and added to "quimocaquiti"? I'm also curious about the > translation given as "hear *us*," vs. the Na:huatl singular object > prefix and singular noun "tla:catl." Is this a Na:huatl stylistic > thing? > > Tlazohcamati... > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Fri Dec 22 02:29:54 2006 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:29:54 -0800 Subject: access to a copy of Portia Mansfield's PhD dissertation "The Conchero Dancers of Mexico" 1955 Message-ID: Piali everyone, I am trying to get access to a copy of Portia Mansfield's PhD dissertation "The Conchero Dancers of Mexico" 1955 at the New York University. Would anyone please steer me in the right direction to get a copy? Thanks!!! mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From sylvia at famsi.org Tue Dec 26 20:17:21 2006 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:17:21 -0500 Subject: FAMSI Announces Grantees--2007 Message-ID: Mesoamericanists, FAMSI is pleased to announce projects funded for research year 2007. Visit our website for a listing of our grantees whose projects were funded for the upcoming season through our annual grant competition: http://www.famsi.org/grants/2007fund.htm Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivist Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From sylvia at famsi.org Tue Dec 26 20:29:32 2006 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:29:32 -0500 Subject: FAMSI Anuncia Cesionarios--2007 Message-ID: Mesoamericanistas, FAMSI se complace en anunciar proyectos de investigacion financiados en el 2007. Visite nuestro sitio web para un listado de proyectos de nuestros cesionarios que fueron financiados para la estacion futura a traves de nuestra competencia anual de concesiones: http://www.famsi.org/spanish/grants/2007fund.htm Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivista Fundacion para el Avance de Estudios Mesoamericanos, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/spanish/index.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Amapohuani at aol.com Sat Dec 30 16:37:34 2006 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:37:34 EST Subject: sad news Message-ID: Estimados Listeros: Some years ago I did a joint article with Eileen Mulhare for ESTUDIOS DE CULTURA NAHUATL on rosary references in fray Pedro de Gante's 1553 DOCTRINA CHRISTIANA. Eileen's husband was going to be in Chicago in early January 2007 for a scholarly conference. Hence she contacted me and we made plans to meet at Amarit, a Thai restaurant near the Newberry Library in Chicago, IL, USA. I am currently in Chicago, working on some wonderful Carochi material, courtesy of a longterm NEH fellowship. We were both looking forward to actually seeing each other in person after corresponding for years. Her interset in early Nahuas and Nahuatl had deepened over the years and she looked forward to talking to me about her latest projects. I was going to bring up a tentative proposal for her to work with me and someone else on some more Gante material. Afterwards I was going to show her around the Newberry's Aztec Exhibit. Then yesterday I got an urgent message from her husband. I called him right away and then shortly thereafter received the email I include at the end of this email via copy-and-paste. The email speaks for itself. I end with a call for anyone who knew Eileen to contact Michael. She will be missed. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell ****EMAILFROMMICHAELHAINESFOLLOWS****    I regret to convey the tragic news that my wife and your colleague Eileen Mulhare died on Saturday, December 23, 2006 at the Johns Hopkins Medical Center in Baltimore, MD.  We had been visiting relatives when she was suddenly stricken with a heart attack on Thursday, December 21, followed by a massive stroke.  It was combination of the two that eventually resulted in her death.  She was only 53.  It was possible for her to donate her kidneys and some tissues to help others.  I miss her a great deal.  We were companions for more than 25 years.        As it says in Proverbs chapter 31: “When one finds a worthy wife, her value is far beyond pearls.  Her husband, entrusting his heart to her, has an unfailing prize. She brings him good, and not evil, all the days of her life. … ‘ Many are the women of proven worth, but you have excelled them all.’ … the woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.’   Michael Haines   Dr. Michael R. Haines, Ph.D. Department of Economics Colgate University 13 Oak Drive Hamilton, NY  13346  USA Tel: 315-228-7536 Fax: 315-228-7033 e-mail: mhaines at mail.colgate.edu   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Fri Dec 1 11:40:21 2006 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:40:21 +0100 Subject: Mesoamerican studies Message-ID: I have an additional question today, please. Is there any university somewhere which offers Mesoamerican studies (or Aztec studies) as "distance learning"?? I'd be really grateful if someone could recommend one. Muchas gracias, Susana Moraleda _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Fri Dec 1 11:35:44 2006 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:35:44 +0100 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan Message-ID: I read somewhere that the original name of Teotihuacan was Tula, and that Teotihuacan was the name given to it by the Aztecs. Could this be true? and how do we know it is true? So what about the "other" Tula??? Thank you for enlightening me!!! Un saludo cari?oso, Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Fri Dec 1 11:37:56 2006 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:37:56 +0100 Subject: Ometeotl as a triangle? Message-ID: I read that Ometeotl is represented as a triangle in "some codices". Would anyone know which codices? and what is the meaning of the triangle? It is quite puzzling to me because I tend to stick to the idea of duality when talking of OME-teotl. Tlazohcamati, Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Fri Dec 1 14:10:51 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 08:10:51 -0600 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <003801c7153d$86a30f10$0c9c2597@mexico> Message-ID: Listeros, By the way, has anybody figured out what "teotihuacan" means? The "- ti-" has me stumped. In San Luis Potos?, fire is "tit". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx ? On Dec 1, 2006, at 5:35 AM, Susana Moraleda wrote: > I read somewhere that the original name of Teotihuacan was Tula, > and that > Teotihuacan was the name given to it by the Aztecs. Could this be > true? and > how do we know it is true? So what about the "other" Tula??? > > Thank you for enlightening me!!! > > Un saludo cari?oso, > Susana > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de Fri Dec 1 16:55:42 2006 From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 17:55:42 +0100 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <26CB4EB3-7E2A-4305-9100-F3EB10D831B5@mac.com> Message-ID: Wouldn't Teotihuacan be TEO:(tl) -TI(a) -HUA -CA:N god -CAUS -IMPERS -LOC "Place where gods are made" for -hua compare /cochihua/ "there is sleeping, people sleep" (easier to translate in other languages, French "on dort", German "man schl?ft") would be the same as /cochilo/ Henry _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Dec 1 17:29:58 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:29:58 -0500 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <45705E8E.6000805@em.uni-frankfurt.de> Message-ID: this question made the rounds a few years ago. i don't remember what was said. ^^ The thing is, Henry's comparison is stilted since cochi is intransitive and "teotia" is causative. my guess would that we have instransitive teoti = "to become a God," similar to tlacati = "to become a human," i.e., "to be born". I'm not sure such a phrase can be precisely translated into English. What? "Place where they are to be Gods". Hmmmm... michael Quoting Henry Kammler : > Wouldn't Teotihuacan be > > TEO:(tl) -TI(a) -HUA -CA:N > god -CAUS -IMPERS -LOC > > "Place where gods are made" > > for -hua compare /cochihua/ "there is sleeping, people sleep" (easier > to translate in other languages, French "on dort", German "man > schl?ft") > would be the same as /cochilo/ > > > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From huehueteot at aol.com Fri Dec 1 23:30:35 2006 From: huehueteot at aol.com (huehueteot at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 18:30:35 -0500 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <20061201122958.zo3rizx68sk4csgw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi All: I always heard Teotihuacan translated as the place where the gods were made. Which sounds pretty much just as Michael has translated it. Tula was always presented as an hispanization of Tollan or place of reeds or place of a bundle of reeds. Which was the term for "The" administrative center. The term became wide spread and was rendered in many different toponyms, Tula, Tulantzingo...cingo etc. It was never clear to me what the concept was except that to be a legitimate ruler in the time of the Toltecs it was neccessary to have your reign "approved" at Tollan. I once saw an argument that much of what the Aztecs were doing with their conquests was to gather together enough of the centers of power in the Mesoamerican world to make themselves the next "Tollan". Cheers, Hugh G. "Sam" Ball And remember: "This too Shall Pass! -----Original Message----- From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Tula vs. Teotihuacan this question made the rounds a few years ago. i don't remember what was said. ^^ The thing is, Henry's comparison is stilted since cochi is intransitive and "teotia" is causative. my guess would that we have instransitive teoti = "to become a God," similar to tlacati = "to become a human," i.e., "to be born". I'm not sure such a phrase can be precisely translated into English. What? "Place where they are to be Gods". Hmmmm... michael Quoting Henry Kammler : > Wouldn't Teotihuacan be > > TEO:(tl) -TI(a) -HUA -CA:N > god -CAUS -IMPERS -LOC > > "Place where gods are made" > > for -hua compare /cochihua/ "there is sleeping, people sleep" (easier > to translate in other languages, French "on dort", German "man > schl?ft") > would be the same as /cochilo/ > > > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Dec 2 00:14:38 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 18:14:38 -0600 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <8C8E3B7D614D1F4-169C-B9E@WEBMAIL-MB21.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Listeros, Here is what I know about how the word "Teotihuacan" is put together. First, the ending "-can" is actually two pieces: the "-ca-" is the old preterite suffix, which is used as a ligature between what come before, a preterite agentive noun, and what comes at the end, in this case, the locative "-n". So, the idea is that in most cases (there is an exception, which I comment on below), when you see "-can", it will be stuck on the end of a preterite agentive noun. Second, the most common agentive formations that have "-can" stuck on them are made up of a noun, with one of three suffixes stuck on the end: "-eh" and "-huah" mean "owner of something", and "-yoh", also means "owner of something", but with the special sense of "covered with something". All three of these suffixes are preterite agentive formations, so they can take "-can". Third, in a few cases, "-can" is stuck on a regular noun stem. So finally, you have to ask yourself the question: what is the noun that comes before the "-can" in Teotihuacan. Is it the "teotihuah" which has the preterite agentive "-huah". In this case it would mean "place of the owner(s) of "teoti-tl" or teotih-tli", whatever that means. This is why I suggested originally that the "-ti-" may be a form of "tletl/tlitl/titl", "fire", giving "place of the owners of divine fire" or something like that. It is also possible that the noun before "-can" is a regular preterite agentive noun, "teotihuac" (coming from a hypothetical class 1 verb) or "teotihuah(qui)" (coming from a hypothetical class 4 verb). In any case I have never heard of these verbs. Finally, it is possible that this is a rare case of "-can" being stuck on a regular noun. In this case there would be a noun, "teotihua-tl", or teotihuah-tli". And I have never heard of these either. This is why the etymology of Teotihuacan is not transparent. And as far as I know, it has not been explained. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sat Dec 2 00:58:06 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:58:06 -0500 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <003801c7153d$86a30f10$0c9c2597@mexico> Message-ID: > I read somewhere that the original name of Teotihuacan was Tula, and that > Teotihuacan was the name given to it by the Aztecs. Could this be true? > and > how do we know it is true? So what about the "other" Tula??? > In response to this particular, since Tula (Tollan) was mythic by the time of the Mexica rise to power, they did not know to what actual place the name referred, if any. In point of fact even today we cannot be certain where/what Tollan truly was (although many serious scholars do associate it with modern-day Tula, Hidalgo). As a result, some sources do conflate Tollan with Teotihuacan. Whether or not this was universal, wide spread, customary among the Mexica is also subject to debate. -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Dec 2 03:10:06 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:10:06 -0500 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <2E49DDA2-1F89-4AB5-89CC-F363C2A86F70@mac.com> Message-ID: John, This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" occurs. Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a separate message. Iztayohmeh, Joe 1151. in izazanillo hi. this is its story. 1152. quil in iquin teotihuac in *teotihua*ya in yohuayan. quil nahuilhuitl in nezahualoc. it is said that when the god was made, when the god was formed, in the time of darkness, it is said, there was fasting for four days. 1153. quilmach yehuatl tonatiuh yezquia in metztli. It is said that the moon would be the sun. 1154. auh in oacic nahuilhuitl quil yohualtica in *teotihua*c. and when four days were completed, it is said, the god was made during the night. 1155. auh quilmach ihcuac tonatiuhtizquia in metztli. quil cenca huei in tletl motlali in mitoa teotlecuilco in xiuhtetzacualco. and it is said that when the moon would be the sun, it is said, a very great fire was laid in the place called the gods' hearth, the turquoise enclosure. 1156. auh in ye imma in *teotihua*z. omotlali in cenca huei tletl in oncan oncholoz in oncan onhuetziz in metztli in onca quicuiz tleyotl mahuizyotl inic tonatiuhtiz. and when it was already time for the god to be made, there was laid the very great fire into which was to leap, was to fall the moon -- where he was to gain renown, glory; by which he would become the sun. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Dec 2 04:55:28 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:55:28 -0800 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <20061201221006.bb00xmwrk0s80cso@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, So it looks like this is the impersonal form of "teoti", "he/she/it becomes or becomes like a god". A better translation of "teotihua" would be "god-becoming happens". I don't have a grammar with me, and I'm trying to think, are there other place names built on the preterite of the impersonal form of a verb? And, can the preterite of the impersonal form of a verb be interpreted as a noun? John On Friday, December 01, 2006, at 07:13PM, "Campbell, R Joe" wrote: >John, > > This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" occurs. >Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am >including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a >separate message. > >Iztayohmeh, > >Joe > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Amapohuani at aol.com Sat Dec 2 05:18:15 2006 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:18:15 EST Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan Message-ID: Listeros: Related are "camissatiua" and "tilmatiua" in Molina's 1569 CONFESSIONARIO MAYOR (see the UNAM photoreproduction). I am not at home in Glendale, CA, so I cannot consult my copy directly but I remember these two items very well. Perhaps this will help shed a little more light on this discussion since facing Spanish translations [of varying specificity and usefulness] might be of help. Or not. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 12/1/06 8:56:41 PM, idiez at mac.com writes: > Joe, > So it looks like this is the impersonal form of "teoti", "he/she/it becomes > or becomes like a god". A better translation of "teotihua" would be > "god-becoming happens". I don't have a grammar with me, and I'm trying to think, are > there other place names built on the preterite of the impersonal form of a > verb? And, can the preterite of the impersonal form of a verb be interpreted as > a noun? > John > > On Friday, December 01, 2006, at 07:13PM, "Campbell,? R Joe" < > campbel at indiana.edu> wrote: > >John, > > > >? ? This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" occurs. > >Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am > >including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a > >separate message. > > > >Iztayohmeh, > > > >Joe > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From igr at stanford.edu Sat Dec 2 07:13:38 2006 From: igr at stanford.edu (Ian Robertson) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 23:13:38 -0800 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <23DADD3F-010F-1000-A8DB-D64A7FCA8E3A-Webmail-10012@mac.com> Message-ID: Hello all, Some years ago I wrote up the following brief note on the meaning of Teotihuacan--as I understood it. I would be happy to hear other ideas or suggestions. Best, Ian Robertson +++++++++++++++++ A variety of more and less implausible translations have been suggested for /teotihuacan/, including ?place of worship,? ?abode of the Gods,? ?the place where men became Gods,? and the ?place of those who have the road of the Gods? (see Millon 1992:359). The translation I favour (?the place where divinity comes into being?) is based on identifying the following elements: *teoti* ; *?hua* ; and *?can* (see Launey 1992:135 ff., 225). Andrews (2003:498) has recently translated the word as ?at the place of the owners of the Elder Gods?. This intriguing translation may conceivably make better sense of the observed locative *?can* (the locative ?*yan* might be expected after the impersonal verbstem /teotihua/*?* that I posit) but this reading also requires restoring a glottal stop in the position immediately preceding?/teotihuahcan/ instead of /teotihuacan/. Andrews, J. Richard 2003 /Introduction to Classical Nahuatl/. Revised Ed. University of Oklahoma Press, Norman. Launey, Michel 1992 /Introducci?n a la Lengua y a la Literatura N?huatl/. Instituto de Investigaciones Antropol?gicas, UNAM, M?xico, D. F. Millon, Ren? 1992 Teotihuacan Studies: From 1950 to 1990 and Beyond/./ In /Art, Ideology, and the City of Teotihuacan/, edited by J. C. Berlo, pp. 339-429. Dumbarton Oaks, Washington, D.C. +++++++++++++++++ John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > Joe, > So it looks like this is the impersonal form of "teoti", "he/she/it becomes or becomes like a god". A better translation of "teotihua" would be "god-becoming happens". I don't have a grammar with me, and I'm trying to think, are there other place names built on the preterite of the impersonal form of a verb? And, can the preterite of the impersonal form of a verb be interpreted as a noun? > John > > On Friday, December 01, 2006, at 07:13PM, "Campbell, R Joe" wrote: > >> John, >> >> This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" occurs. >> Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am >> including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a >> separate message. >> >> Iztayohmeh, >> >> Joe >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Dec 2 14:14:18 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 09:14:18 -0500 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan In-Reply-To: <23DADD3F-010F-1000-A8DB-D64A7FCA8E3A-Webmail-10012@mac.com> Message-ID: I like your translation, John. I couldn't come up with one for English when I suggested the other day that teoti was behind this place name. But teotihua and cochihua make perfect and parallel sense to me if I switch into my Nahuatl-only mind. In fact *Cochihuacan sounds quite nice. I wonder where it is. :) Michael Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Joe, > So it looks like this is the impersonal form of "teoti", "he/she/it > becomes or becomes like a god". A better translation of "teotihua" > would be "god-becoming happens". I don't have a grammar with me, and > I'm trying to think, are there other place names built on the > preterite of the impersonal form of a verb? And, can the preterite of > the impersonal form of a verb be interpreted as a noun? > John > > On Friday, December 01, 2006, at 07:13PM, "Campbell, R Joe" > wrote: >> John, >> >> This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" occurs. >> Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am >> including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a >> separate message. >> >> Iztayohmeh, >> >> Joe >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rcrapo at hass.usu.edu Sat Dec 2 18:50:43 2006 From: rcrapo at hass.usu.edu (Richley) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 11:50:43 -0700 Subject: Tula vs. Teotihuacan Message-ID: I wonder whether the "becomes a god" might euphemistically refer to ritual sacrifice. Richley (Hope this gets thru without a glitch. I've tried to repair that problem.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Sullivan, Ph.D." To: "Campbell, R Joe" Cc: Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Tula vs. Teotihuacan > Joe, > So it looks like this is the impersonal form of "teoti", "he/she/it > becomes or becomes like a god". A better translation of "teotihua" would > be "god-becoming happens". I don't have a grammar with me, and I'm trying > to think, are there other place names built on the preterite of the > impersonal form of a verb? And, can the preterite of the impersonal form > of a verb be interpreted as a noun? > John > > On Friday, December 01, 2006, at 07:13PM, "Campbell, R Joe" > wrote: >>John, >> >> This is the only place in the Florentine Codex that "teotihua-" >> occurs. >>Due to my not total eptness with Windows (thanks a lot, Bill), I am >>including below the fragment of text and I will send comments in a >>separate message. >> >>Iztayohmeh, >> >>Joe >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ramiro_Medrano at csumb.edu Mon Dec 4 06:00:46 2006 From: Ramiro_Medrano at csumb.edu (Ramiro Medrano) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:00:46 -0800 Subject: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <200612021800.kB2I0W56015812@www.famsi.org> Message-ID: Hello all, I have read how many scholars believe the word "teotl" translates to "god," but I am not sure from where they take this belief. Maybe from the Spanish friars who were translating codices and such? I have heard other scholars mention that teotl translates to either "cosmic energy" (no to be confused with "tonalli," which has more of a direct connection to "sun" or "day" energy) or "divine energy." But, if, for example, both "Ometeotl" and "Tezcatlipoca" are "gods," why don't they both have the -teotl suffix? It is well known that "Ometeotl" was *the* creator of the Mexica. I am confused how there can be other "gods" if everything else was a representation of Ometeotl. In other words, Ometeotl encompassed every existing thing in this universe, right? Maybe someone can clarify. Thanks, Ramiro -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Dec 4 07:19:30 2006 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 07:19:30 +0000 Subject: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- Ramiro Medrano wrote: > I have read how many scholars believe the word "teotl" translates to > "god," but I am not sure from where they take this belief. Maybe from > the Spanish friars who were translating codices and such? > I have heard other scholars mention that teotl translates to either > "cosmic energy" (no to be confused with "tonalli," which has more of > a direct connection to "sun" or "day" energy) or "divine energy." > But, if, for example, both "Ometeotl" and > "Tezcatlipoca" are "gods", why don't they both have the -teotl > suffix? Very many men have names which do not end in "-man". > It is well known that "Ometeotl" was *the* creator of the Mexica. I > am confused how there can be other "gods" if everything else was a > representation of Ometeotl. It is similar in Hinduism. Some say that all of their gods are aspects of one god, but others talk of separate gods. It is similar in Christianity with "3 or 1?": God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit: the mystery of the Trinity. > In other words, Ometeotl encompassed every existing thing in this > universe, right? In Hinduism it is smewhat similar with some beliefs about Brahma or the Brahman or Parabrahman: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism Without me getting any further sidetracked into religious mysticism, it seems clear to me that [teotl] = "a god", and was used by the Christians to mean "God". Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Mon Dec 4 17:29:59 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 11:29:59 -0600 Subject: two fun things Message-ID: Listeros, We came across two fun things in today's morning session. 1. the first construction is controversial, because two girls from one town said its good, but right now, another is saying that it isn't. Normally the preterite agentive suffix "-yoh" (covered with something) is used with its imbed as a noun, although we know that it is actually an ancient verb in the preterite. Well, today we came across an instance where the verbal quality of the construction is put to use. "chilloh" means "adobado" or "covered with chilli". Its parts are "chil-li" + "-yoh". But in the Huasteca you can also say (here is the controversial part): "chillohtoc", "ha sido adobado" or "est? adobado". The breakdown is "chilloh" + "-ti" + "o" + "c (preterite)". We know that "ti ligature" auxiliary verb formations can only be stuck on a preterite stem. So it seems that at least for some native speakers, the "-yoh" still has some its verbal qualities (in addition to the fact that its plural is "-yohqueh"). I may have to recant later... 2. For me at least, it's always been a problem trying to explain why on the one hand, the "-can" locative suffix is stuck on preterite verb formations (with the "-ca" actually being the older preterite ending), and on the other hand, it can be stuck on a regular noun (in which case, the "-ca-" isn't part of a verbal formation). Well, I'm not any closer to being able to expain this, but I do have some new data to add to the mess. In older Nahuatl you would say, "oncan" or "occan" for "in two places", and "excan" for "in three places". In the Huasteca they say "oncac" and "excac". So here we have the locative "-c" added to a number by means of a "ligature" which usually takes the locative "-n". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx www.macehualli.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cberry at cine.net Mon Dec 4 19:47:03 2006 From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 11:47:03 -0800 Subject: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Dec 2006, Ramiro Medrano wrote: > I have read how many scholars believe the word "teotl" translates to > "god," but I am not sure from where they take this belief. Maybe from > the Spanish friars who were translating codices and such? [snip] I'm an amateur in this field, but I posted a few years ago on my own understanding of 'teotl', and nobody laughed at me (in my hearing, anyway): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0001d&L=nahuat-l&P=2980 -- ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ =+= "You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." - Lord Phillips of Sudbury _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ced44 at cam.ac.uk Mon Dec 4 20:17:14 2006 From: ced44 at cam.ac.uk (Caroline Dodds) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:17:14 -0000 Subject: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl Message-ID: Dear Ramiro, It's rather an old book, but Arild Hvidtfeldt's 'Teotl and *ixiptlatli: some central conceptions in ancient Mexican religion with a general introduction on cult and myth' specifically considers the issue of 'teotl' (Copenhagen, 1958) in detail with extended quotation and references. It was based on his thesis I believe, and although much of the surrounding literature has moved on, it remains a valuable and detailed study and well worth a look for anyone interested in this issue, because it is so closely focused on this issue (alongside that of ixiptla). Best wishes, Caroline ------ Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Email: ced44 at cam.ac.uk _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From smielke at famsi.org Tue Dec 5 19:26:57 2006 From: smielke at famsi.org (Sandy Mielke) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:26:57 -0500 Subject: Mail Delivery Error Message-ID: To All, There was a minor glitch in the listserv mail system yesterday and today (Dec. 4-5). If you sent mail to the Aztlan list and it was returned to you, please submit it again. Sorry for the confusion and I apologize for the inconvenience. Thank you, Sandy Mielke www.famsi.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Dec 5 19:28:34 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:28:34 -0500 Subject: two fun things Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:37:10 -0500 (EST) From: R. Joe Campbell To: John Sullivan , Nahua language and culture discussion Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] two fun things Please pardon the repetition if it happens -- my server indicated that my first attempt at sending it fizzled... >8-( John, I doubt that you'll need to recant on this one. The pieces of evidence for verbal origin of -yo(h)/(tl), -eh, and -huah are sprinkled around in "older" Nahuatl too. I was just e-conversing with another friend about this topic, maybe e-grousing just a little bit that although Andrews points out their verbal nature, there is no evidence given about why one would believe it, evidence of the sort that all linguists-in-training in the twentieth century were brow-beaten into including in their solutions to problems. Some examples of -yo: copalloque (FC) lords of copal iyauhyoque (FC) lords of incense /y/ is evidenced by the doubling of the /l/; -que originates as a preterit plural suffix cuauhtenanyotoc (FC) wooden barriers are standing cuauhtenamitl is embedded in -yo as in your example, -t[i]oc only compounds with the preterit form of verbs; Some examples of -eh: matemeque[h]que (FC) those who wear armbands (note: te[tl]-mecatl) (matemecatl appears both in Molina and FC as "bracelet") chalchiuhmacuexe[h]que (FC) those who have green stone bracelets -que originates as a preterit plural suffix chane[h]caconetl child born within the household the -ca nominalizer forms a unit that compounds (N-N) with conetl tocaye[h]toc (FC) it remains having a name -t[i]oc only compounds with the preterit form of verbs; macoche[h]tica (FC) embracing -ti-ca (be) only compounds with the preterit form verbs Some examples of -huah: cotzehuahua[h]que (FC) those who have leather bands on their calves (note compound of cotztli-ehuatl) -que originates as a preterit plural suffix tlatquihua[h]toc those who have property -t[i]oc only compounds with the preterit form of verbs; Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From smielke at famsi.org Tue Dec 5 19:47:28 2006 From: smielke at famsi.org (Sandy Mielke) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:47:28 -0500 Subject: Mail Delivery Error and Searching Message-ID: Hello all, The reason there was a minor glitch in the mail server was because I was installing new software to enable a search within the list archives. As you will see on the archive page, there is a new search section. This currently does not work and it will not work until I re-archive all the mailing lists. Please be patient while I add this functionality to the list. I will send another email when the search is working. Thank you for your patience, Sandy Mielke Aztlan List Admin www.famsi.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ramiro_Medrano at csumb.edu Tue Dec 5 23:11:01 2006 From: Ramiro_Medrano at csumb.edu (Ramiro Medrano) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 15:11:01 -0800 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl Message-ID: Thank you all for your responses... >Very many men have names which do not end in "-man". Right, well, then, is there any reason why some "gods" have this suffix and some don't? Is it simply a name, or does the name carry with itself a form of higher reverence? > > >It is similar in Hinduism. Some say that all of their gods are aspects >of one god, but others talk of separate gods. > >It is similar in Christianity with "3 or 1?": God and Jesus and the >Holy Spirit: the mystery of the Trinity. Well, then, by the same token, shouldn't Christianity be considered a religion of many gods? If Mexicayotl is considered polytheistic because of the "various representations of Ometeotl," shouldn't then Christianity be viewed the same way? > > >Without me getting any further sidetracked into religious mysticism, it >seems clear to me that [teotl] = "a god", and was used by the >Christians to mean "God". I'm not too convinced, but I appreciate your input. I liked Mr. Berry's interpretation of teotl with the word "teomazatl" (meaning "horse") as a challenge to its meaning of "god." Surely the Mexica weren't as simple-minded to believe that an animal they had never before seen (but which resembles a deer) was a form of deer-god. Does "teotl" translate to "inexplicable," "powerful," "untouchable," or maybe even "divine"? It makes sense to me. > > Ramiro -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cberry at cine.net Wed Dec 6 02:06:11 2006 From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:06:11 -0800 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Ramiro Medrano wrote: > Does "teotl" translate to "inexplicable," "powerful," "untouchable," or > maybe even "divine"? It makes sense to me. My attempt at a single-word translation is "supernatural", in both the senses of that word. A horse is a "supernatural deer" in the sense that it is shaped like a deer, but is bigger and stronger than a deer, and behaves very differently from a deer. Thus it is "outside nature". A god is "supernatural" in a different (but ultimately related) sense. So for example "Ometeotl" is "supernatural duality", the concept of "two" expressed outside all normal experience and natural limits. -- ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ =+= "You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." - Lord Phillips of Sudbury _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Dec 5 23:15:35 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:15:35 -0600 Subject: -toc Message-ID: Listeros, I have a question regarding one of the many problems I am encountering while trying to do a dictionary. In modern Huastecan Nahuatl, auxiliary verb constructions in "-toc" can have two different but related meanings, depending on the main verb. The first meaning is the present perfect (antepresente). So, for example, from "ninehnemi", "I walk", we go to "ninehnentoc", "I have walked". Pretty much all verbs can work like this. However, some verbs, while taking this meaning with the "-toc", can have another meaning: the state resulting from having completed that action. So, for example, from the reflexive verb "cehuia, nimo", we have "nimocehuia", "I sit down". With the "-toc" construction it will have two meanings: first, the present perfect, "nimocehuihtoc", I have sat down"; second, the resulting state, "I am seated". There are many, many examples. Here is one more: "tlamixtemi", "it gets cloudy", "tlamixtentoc", 1. "it has gotten cloudy"; 2. "it is cloudy". The first example, "ninehnentoc", like most verbs in Nahuatl will not take this second meaning. You wouldn't say, "I am walked". Now this makes sense. The class 1 verb "o", "to lay down", which forms the auxiliary construction "-toc" is a preterite-as-present verb. But isn't this perhaps what preterite-as-present verbs are all about? What does it mean when you say that a completed action refers to the present. Well, the logical answer that pops into my head is that who or whatever did that action kind of remains for a while in the state in which they were left after completing the action. And that "remaining for a while" shifts things into the present. Perhaps we should stop translating the "-toc" construction from classical Nahuatl as "someone lies doing something". It seems to me that "laying down" after doing something is a pretty good metaphor for refering to the state achieved after completing the action. Also I imagine that we could talk for a while about the many ways the Nahua mind uses the preterite tense. Now, getting closer to my question. The use of "-toc" to throw any verb into the present perfect tense is something that should be treated in a grammar book , in the chapter on auxiliary verb constructions formed with the connective "-ti-". But the fact that some verbs go into a "resultant state" mode by means of this construction, perhaps merits mention in the dictionary. My question is, should this mention be made under the entry for the main verb, or, is this "resultant state" a big enough shift of meaning to warrant a separate dictionary entry? At one point I was asking myself if perhaps the "-toc" construction is making the transition to "nounness", in other words, is "nimocehuihtoc", "I am seated", on the verge of meaning "I am a seated thing"? But then I realized that you can change tenses. For example, "nimocehuihtoz": 1. "I will have sat down", 2. "I will be seated". The other problem with option 2 is, what kind of word is this? If it's not a noun, that it's nothing more than a special use of a verb tense. Ok, so why am I still considering option 1? The native speakers feel that this meaning shift is a pretty big deal. Any suggestions? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx www.macehualli.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Wed Dec 6 07:04:32 2006 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 07:04:32 +0000 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony Appleyard wrote:- > Very many men have names which do not end in "-man". Ramiro Medrano wrote: > Right, well, then, is there any reason why some "gods" have this > suffix and some don't? Is it simply a name, or does the name carry > with itself a form of higher reverence? E.g. Huehueteotl means "old-man god" and needs to be distinguished from "an old man" in the ordinary sense; there is only one entity called Huitzilopochtli and so there is no need to add "-teotl" to distinguish. Anthony Appleyard wrote:- > It is similar in Hinduism. Some say that all of their gods are > aspects of one god, but others talk of separate gods. > It is similar in Christianity with "3 or 1?": God and Jesus and the > Holy Spirit: the mystery of the Trinity. Ramiro Medrano wrote: > Well, then, by the same token, shouldn't Christianity be considered a > religion of many gods? I read about one Mexican woman who laid flowers on an image of Coatlicue which had been found buried in Mexico City and that she said that "We have _three acceptable Spanish gods_, but we would have preferred to have been left with some of our own.". Ramiro Medrano wrote: > I liked Mr. Berry's interpretation of teotl with the word "teomazatl" > (meaning "horse") as a challenge to its meaning of "god". Surely the > Mexica weren't as simple-minded to believe that an animal they had > never before seen (but which resembles a deer) was a form of deer-god. [teomazatl] means "god-deer", i.e. likeliest "very strong and mighty deer" or "deer sent by God or by the gods". Citlalyani _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de Wed Dec 6 15:33:43 2006 From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:33:43 +0100 Subject: tlatquihua[h]toc In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20061205142830.01d874b0@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Thank you for the interesting examples, I'm puzzled by tlatquihua[h]toc those who have property -t[i]oc only compounds with the preterit form of verbs; 1) Why is it translated as plural? 2) What is the semantic difference between /tlatquihuah/ and /tlatquihuahtoc/ ? Maybe the latter has an inceptive or graduative value in the sense of "being in the course of becoming an owner of property"...? Greetings, Henry _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Wed Dec 6 17:11:51 2006 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:11:51 -0800 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does the distinction between natural and ?supernatural? have a place in indigenous religion(s) of Mesoamerica? That is, were divine powers understood to be beyond the natural world or part of it? --- Craig Berry wrote: > On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Ramiro Medrano wrote: > > > Does "teotl" translate to "inexplicable," > "powerful," "untouchable," or > > maybe even "divine"? It makes sense to me. > > My attempt at a single-word translation is > "supernatural", in both the > senses of that word. A horse is a "supernatural > deer" in the sense that > it is shaped like a deer, but is bigger and stronger > than a deer, and > behaves very differently from a deer. Thus it is > "outside nature". A god > is "supernatural" in a different (but ultimately > related) sense. > > So for example "Ometeotl" is "supernatural duality", > the concept of "two" > expressed outside all normal experience and natural > limits. > > -- > ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > > country and value of our > ( democracy by undermining them. That's the > road to hell." > - Lord Phillips of Sudbury > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cberry at cine.net Wed Dec 6 17:37:35 2006 From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:37:35 -0800 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <20061206171152.11099.qmail@web31710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Michael Swanton wrote: > Does the distinction between natural and ?supernatural? have a place in > indigenous religion(s) of Mesoamerica? That is, were divine powers > understood to be beyond the natural world or part of it? This is obviously getting into murky semantics, but I think it's clear that mesoamerican religions, like essentially all human religions, recognized a category of forces or entities which were outside or beyond the normal, everyday experience of nature. Even if (as is commonly the case) these forces were understood as the roots or sources of the visible natural world, they in themselves were not directly experienced (other than in ecstatic states, however those might be achieved). -- ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." - Lord Phillips of Sudbury _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 18:22:45 2006 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:22:45 -0600 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <20061206171152.11099.qmail@web31710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually, I think so-called "divine" powers were part of the natural world, not sharply separated from it. We have to be careful to take a very old Western model of the cosmos and universalize it to everyone, everywhere in the world. The model of Man, Nature and God dates way back in western religious history and sets up a disinction between nature and the divine or nature and the supernatural. But I don't see that in the Nahuatl material at all, really. I've written on this (Aztec Time and Sacrifice, Indiana University Press, 1998: 144-48), although I drew from others before me. Arild Hvidfeldt was one (I believe that he's already been mentioned in this conversation); but also Walter Krickeberg, who translated teotl as "kraft" or power (Altmexickanische Kulturen, Berlin, Safari-Verlag, 1966: 183-84)), and Jorge Klor de Alva, who saw teotl as an abstract concept absolutely central to Nahua religious belief and even coined the term "teoyoism" ("Spiritual Warfare in Mexico: Christianity and the Aztecs," Ph.D diss., University of California, Santa Cruz, 1980: 66) I tend to think of "-teo-" as a generic element referring to powers, sometimes quite distinctive that many, many natural objects, animals, people and various beings could have. I say this because "-teo-" appears embedded in numerous, very diverse settings, such as: teoatl (ocean, marvelous water according to Simeon), or teuhpiltontli (very terrible or bad boy according to Sahagun, see below). This latter example comes from a telling passage translated in an older article by Howard Cline ("Missing Variant Prologues and Dedication in Sahagun's Historia General: Texts and English Translations," vol. 9, Estudios de cultural de Nahuatl, UNAM, 1971: 237-52). ". . .any creature whatsoever they see to be good or bad. They call it "teutl," which means "god," in such wise that they call the sun "teutl," because of its beauty, or at least because of it frightening disposition and fierceness. From this it can be inferred that this word "teutl" can be taken for a good quality or for a bad one. This is much better recognized when it is compunded in this name, "teupilzintli," "very pretty child," teuhpiltontli," "very terrible or bad boy." Many other terms are compounded in this same way, from the meaning of which one can conjecture that this term "teutl" means a "thing extremely good or bad." It is telling that Molina gives "teoyotica" as the Nahuatl equivalency of "spirituality" ("spiritualment"), which is followed by a slew of nahuatl terms joined with it to indicate various Catholic concepts such as: teoyotica tlamachiotilli (confirmed or "chrismado". . .question, does anyone know what this means, is it an old form meaning to christen or sacralize??) or teoyotica tlatoani (bishop or prelate). I.e., he seemed to be coining terms based on a notion of spiritual power to get across the ideas of sacramental functions and functionaries in the Catholic tradition. But, I think this was an imperfect attempt to get across a cosmos based on man, nature and God (the worldview all Europeans held in Molina's time)--a world dividing the natural from the supernatural. Instead of this rather westernized (even medievalized) idea of nature and that which is beyond nature, I read all this stuff about -teo- as a very slim to no distinction between the natural and supernatural. I.e., to some degree everything is natural, but not everything shares the same powers. For example, do we really want to say that very bad boys are supernatural? They may drive us nuts naturally, but supernaturally? Nor can we say that it is all one universal power, because there is a big difference between that bad little boy and the powerful ocean (teoatl), both in their character and what they are able to do and effect. In other words, I think it is a cosmos filled with various powers that make things happen and those powerful event and their perpetrators can include anything from a very nasty drought caused by the sun to the pleasure of a beautiful child or the disruption in family harmony when a boy misbehaves. Kay Read Dept. of Religious Studies DePaul University, Chicago On 12/6/06, Michael Swanton wrote: > > Does the distinction between natural and > "supernatural" have a place in indigenous religion(s) > of Mesoamerica? That is, were divine powers understood > to be beyond the natural world or part of it? > > > --- Craig Berry wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Ramiro Medrano wrote: > > > > > Does "teotl" translate to "inexplicable," > > "powerful," "untouchable," or > > > maybe even "divine"? It makes sense to me. > > > > My attempt at a single-word translation is > > "supernatural", in both the > > senses of that word. A horse is a "supernatural > > deer" in the sense that > > it is shaped like a deer, but is bigger and stronger > > than a deer, and > > behaves very differently from a deer. Thus it is > > "outside nature". A god > > is "supernatural" in a different (but ultimately > > related) sense. > > > > So for example "Ometeotl" is "supernatural duality", > > the concept of "two" > > expressed outside all normal experience and natural > > limits. > > > > -- > > ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > > + "You do not secure the liberty of our > > country and value of our > > ( democracy by undermining them. That's the > > road to hell." > > - Lord Phillips of Sudbury > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 18:37:50 2006 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:37:50 -0600 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <3eb115df0612061027k2597d717je4ce2103ee66cf7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry. . .I didn't hit "reply all." Kay On 12/6/06, Kay Read wrote: > See what I just sent, but actually I think these forces cannot exist > without the natural things of the normal world. They have no "house" > in which to live otherwise; and therefore, they are directly > experienced both within one's own body and the corporeal, material > bodies of other natural things. See: Lopez Austin's Human Body > (1988) for a great deal more on this topic. > > Again, be careful about universalizing our own deep-seated and > historically long cultural assumptions about reality to other > cultures. > > Just more thoughts on this. . . > > Kay Read > Dept. of Religious Studies > DePaul University, Chicago > > On 12/6/06, Craig Berry wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Michael Swanton wrote: > > > > > Does the distinction between natural and "supernatural" have a place in > > > indigenous religion(s) of Mesoamerica? That is, were divine powers > > > understood to be beyond the natural world or part of it? > > > > This is obviously getting into murky semantics, but I think it's clear > > that mesoamerican religions, like essentially all human religions, > > recognized a category of forces or entities which were outside or beyond > > the normal, everyday experience of nature. Even if (as is commonly the > > case) these forces were understood as the roots or sources of the visible > > natural world, they in themselves were not directly experienced (other > > than in ecstatic states, however those might be achieved). > > > > -- > > ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > > + "You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our > > ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." > > - Lord Phillips of Sudbury > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cberry at cine.net Wed Dec 6 19:25:03 2006 From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:25:03 -0800 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <3eb115df0612061037x5ac7c9c5s5b69199767242292@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 12/6/06, Kay Read wrote: > > See what I just sent, but actually I think these forces cannot exist > > without the natural things of the normal world. They have no "house" > > in which to live otherwise; and therefore, they are directly > > experienced both within one's own body and the corporeal, material > > bodies of other natural things. See: Lopez Austin's Human Body > > (1988) for a great deal more on this topic. But they are still distinct from the natural forms in which they have existence; otherwise there would be no separate concepts of "maize" and "Cinteotl" (just for example). So, to turn the question around, what distinguishes the various divine powers (named by the 'teotl' concept in many cases) from the natural objects and processes with which they are associated? -- ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ =+= "You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." - Lord Phillips of Sudbury _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 19:45:26 2006 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:45:26 -0600 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good question! I've heard that explained in other more or less analogous Native American contexts as an idea of inner and outer forms. The sun is being with will and power to move according to its nature of sun-ness (Clara Sue Kidwell, "Systems of Knowledge," in America in 1492: The World of the Indian Peoples before the Arrival of Columbus, ed. Alvin M. Josephy Jr., NY, Alfred A. Knopf, 369-403). I.e., the outer form is shaped and motivated by the inner form. I've always kinda liked that way of thinking about it. Another western model that comes into play here unconsciously is the rather Platonic notion of separating form and ideal form. But, I don't think that's what's really happening here. The inner form may be housed in the outer, but neither could exist without the other and neither is some immaterial, spiritual ideal. This is closer to the idea that the heart keeps the outer body alive in particular ways (and the concept of yoli is very important. . .check out Lopez Austin, if you haven't already). The inner heart and the outer body in which it sits are separate entities, but neither could function without the other. In the case of Cinteotl, how about this? Maize is the outer form that is filled with teo, making it Cinteotl, who is a being that can be depicted both as corn plants and as a "deity" with particular iconographic traits. Remember all the pictures of ears of corn being shown as little heads sticking out of the husks. Corn cobs themselves are beings, who sometimes appear as individual ears and other times appears as a kind of idea of overarching idea of corn-ness in the form of Cinteotl. But the form is naturally depicted as a human-like being with the powers of corn. Kay On 12/6/06, Craig Berry wrote: > > On 12/6/06, Kay Read wrote: > > > See what I just sent, but actually I think these forces cannot exist > > > without the natural things of the normal world. They have no "house" > > > in which to live otherwise; and therefore, they are directly > > > experienced both within one's own body and the corporeal, material > > > bodies of other natural things. See: Lopez Austin's Human Body > > > (1988) for a great deal more on this topic. > > But they are still distinct from the natural forms in which they have > existence; otherwise there would be no separate concepts of "maize" and > "Cinteotl" (just for example). So, to turn the question around, what > distinguishes the various divine powers (named by the 'teotl' concept in > many cases) from the natural objects and processes with which they are > associated? > > -- > ) Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > =+= "You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our > ( democracy by undermining them. That's the road to hell." > - Lord Phillips of Sudbury > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Dec 7 05:35:06 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 00:35:06 -0500 Subject: tlatquihua[h]toc Message-ID: Henry, 1) I was careless. I have the word in my database, still without a gloss, and I looked at the sentence translation in Dibble and Anderson's edition of Book 6. 2) I think the semantic content of -toc in "older" Nahuatl was probably that of "progressive" aspect, probably *leaning* on the literal meaning of {o}, somewhat the way Mexican Spanish uses "andar". "Anda entristecido" carries not only the notion of a continuative state, but also that of motion. -toc and -mani are used similarly (I think)to convey the idea of ongoingness by hinting at the literal meaning without claiming it. I put the piece of text in question at the bottom of this message; "tlatquihuatoc" is in #10956. Iztayohmeh, Joe > I'm puzzled by > > tlatquihua[h]toc those who have property > -t[i]oc only compounds with the preterit form of verbs; > > 1) Why is it translated as plural? > 2) What is the semantic difference between /tlatquihuah/ and > /tlatquihuahtoc/ ? > Maybe the latter has an inceptive or graduative value in the sense of > "being in the course of becoming an owner of property"...? 10948. nopiltze xontlachia in monextitlan, in motlecuillan, "o my son, look in thy ashes, in thy hearth." 10949. cococ, teopouhqui quiquiztoc, timalihui in icnotlacayotl, in nentlacayotl: cococ, teopouhqui macho, timalihui in cuitlaxcolpitzactli, [all is] permeated by pain, by affliction; misery, inhumanity dominate; pain, affliction are known; starvation dominateth. 10950. atontonamiqui in toquezpan in toquechtlan ompilcac: we are in want as to that which hangeth from our hips, from our necks. 10951. nelli mach in ticmamalacachoa, in ompa huallauh ehecatl, ompa ticmana. in truth we turn it around and around: from whence cometh the wind, there we place it. 10952. auh tla xitechitta and look at us! 10953. tizacuahuatinemi, tomizauhtinemi in ipaltzinco toteucyo tloque, nahuaque: by the grace of our lord, the lord of the near, of the nigh, we go dying of hunger and thirst; we go like skeletons. 10954. auh in huecapa in moteiccahuan, in mohueltihuan xiquimonitta, and look at thy male cousins, thy female cousins. Florentine Codex [p. 912] 10955. cuix onoac, cuix yeloac, cuix ixtonatoque in ipaltzinco tloque, nahuaque do they perhaps reside, do they perhaps exist, do they enjoy abundance by the grace of the lord of the near, of the nigh? 10956. cuix tlatquihuatoc, cuix netimalolotoc: do they perhaps remain possessors of property? do they perhaps remain glorified? 10957. ahtiquimitta inic monemitia, canst thou not see how they live? 10958. ca timalihui in tlalticpac, ca ihiyohuilo, ca tlaciahua: for it spreadeth on earth; for there is drudgery; all are fatigued. 10959. quenin xihualmotzonteconacocui o, quenin xaquetza o, with that, how canst thou be proud, arrogant? 10960. amo za tlahuanayotl caci, amo tequi xolopicayotl o, that would be but virtual drunkenness, extreme foolishness. 10961. in iuhcan tiyol i, in iuhcan titlacat, i, this is how thou camest forth; this is how thou wert born. 10962. auh in iuhcan mocalitic i, auh in iuhque in, moncahuan, mehcahuan, and this is how it is in thy house, and so are these of thy household, thy residents. 10963. intla quecin ximochihua: if thou wouldst in some manner suffer! 10964. auh quen ahtitoloz, quen ahtimopiloz, and wilt thou not so bow thy head, wilt thou not so hang thy head? 10965. in iuhcan timoyoliti i. for in such a time as this wert thou born. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de Thu Dec 7 11:31:16 2006 From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:31:16 +0100 Subject: tlatquihua[h]toc In-Reply-To: <20061207003506.94vlbjqf40wcoscw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, thank you for clarification and the context of the example. I was wondering whether a referent classified as "inanimate" could be a /tlatquihuah/ at all, and in that case both singular and plural would be OK of course. But then, plural marking in general seems not to be obligatory even with "animate" referents, as your text fragment shows. Yes, the progessive/continuative meaning of /-tok/ is the prevalent one in modern Central Guerrero nahuatl, too. By graduative (which in some North American languages is morphologically marked) I meant a sense of "slowly growing into a certain state". So taking up the helpful "andar"-analogy, /tlatquihuahtoc/ = (?)"anda enriqueciendose" or (?)"anda con riquezas" or "se queda con riquezas"... Dibble and Anderson chose the last option. Probably then this is not a commonplace construction but due to poetic style, giving a nice sequence of /-toc/-forms. Tlahzocamati hueyi Henry _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Dec 7 15:32:33 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:32:33 -0500 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <3eb115df0612061022u2db49ab2l8ffe065cf34a2b3f@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: At 01:22 PM 12/6/2006, Kay Read wrote: >nahuatl terms joined with it to indicate various Catholic concepts >such as: teoyotica tlamachiotilli (confirmed or "chrismado". . >.question, does anyone know what this means, is it an old form meaning >to christen or sacralize??) Yes. Part of the ritual of Confirmation (and baptism) is to anoint the person with chrism (sanctified oil) It is the outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace that is imparted through the sacrament. With Baptism the other sign is the water. With confirmation the other sign is a slap on the face from the bishop who administers the sacrament. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 15:58:57 2006 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 09:58:57 -0600 Subject: Fwd(2): Re: About the word "teotl" and Ometeotl In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20061207102333.01c77e98@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Fritz, I kinda thought that it was referring to the oil used in the rituals. Kay On 12/7/06, John F. Schwaller wrote: > At 01:22 PM 12/6/2006, Kay Read wrote: > >nahuatl terms joined with it to indicate various Catholic concepts > >such as: teoyotica tlamachiotilli (confirmed or "chrismado". . > >.question, does anyone know what this means, is it an old form meaning > >to christen or sacralize??) > > > Yes. Part of the ritual of Confirmation (and baptism) is to anoint > the person with chrism (sanctified oil) It is the outward and > visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace that is imparted > through the sacrament. With Baptism the other sign is the > water. With confirmation the other sign is a slap on the face from > the bishop who administers the sacrament. > > > > > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > > 315-267-2100 > 315-267-2496 fax > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From brokaw at buffalo.edu Thu Dec 7 17:23:26 2006 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:23:26 -0500 Subject: -toc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi John, This is a tough question. My initial inclination is the same as yours. I haven't thought about this enough to feel strongly one way or another. Or maybe I'm just apathetic by nature. But in case it is useful, I'll argue for my initial inclination. In spite of the fact that the precise meaning is a little different, it is a verb form that takes different endings, as you pointed out. I just checked the rather old dictionary that was left behind in my office when I moved in, and as an example, adjectives derived from verbal forms like "eaten" and "stacked" do not have their own entries. It seems to me that this is sort of similar to the case you are dealing with. It is a verbal form that also can function as an adjective. In the English case, one might argue compellingly that these words should have their own entries, because the adjectival form is not inflected or conjugated any further; that is to say when it functions as an ajective, it no longer behaves like a verb. I don't know if other dictionaries do this, but the 1950 edition of the American College Dictionary doesn't. But in the case of this -toc form, as you point out, it behaves like a verb. I don't know whether it would be feasible or not, but maybe you could include this and other basic conjugations in the dictionary entry for the root form of the verb similar to the way English dictionaries do. And in cases like this, you could always include these nuances in the dictionary entry. You know how dictionaries often include examples of usages of words that produce variations in meaning with the defintions of these usages. Although maybe the regularity of this form would not require it. This is not to say that your dictionary should necessarily be modeled exactly on the conventions of English dictionaries. But it seems to me that the formal characteristics and the formal behavior of a linguistic element is a pretty good basis upon which to construct the kind of classificatory system employed in dictionaries and grammars. I think I understand your hesitation based on the semantic sensibilities of your informants. I can't really speak to that specifically, but I suspect that in a project like this, it is probably impossible to avoid certain incongruities or tensions between the structural features of the Grammatical and Semantic construct and the innate sensibilities of all native speakers. For one thing, as you know better than I do, all native speakers don't agree. And secondly, the Grammatical and Semantic construct involved in writing a grammar and a dictionary exists in a different sort of space, has a different sort of ontology; overlapping in significant ways to be sure, but different nonetheless; it can never be an exact reflection of actual pre-Grammatical with a capital "G" linguistic practice. So, perhaps the terms incongruity and tension aren't even quite the right words, but it is something like that. A certain kind of incommensurability that often pops up. I think the only reason why English grammar appears to us to be so well-suited to describing the language is because there has been such a long dialogical relationship between written and spoken English. When the original Grammarians were first trying to "tame" English by establishing a prescriptive grammar, I suspect they had similar problems. It is the inevitable issue of creating universal categories and a universal system in order to account for particulars and more fluid practices. What I have called a Grammar with a capital "G," is a prescriptive system that aspires to be clear cut in this regard. But the problem is that what I have called a grammar with a small "g" (the universality and systematicity inherent in any given language) is not always so nice and neat but rather sort of messy in many instances. Sorry for the digression. I don't mean to be preachy, and I've argued this sort of thing with Jose on the list before. In any case, I guess my point is that it seems to me that the best way to go about making these decisions is to establish structural criteria. In this particular case, this is a verbal construction that is regular and used with many verbs in the same way. So I don't think it really needs its own entry. But if possible, I think it would be nice to include this -toc form under the entry for the root form of the verb that you are using for the dictionary along with other basic conjugations. Just some thoughts. Galen Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > > --Apple-Mail-2-222258631 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=UTF-8; > delsp=yes; > format=flowed > > Listeros, > I have a question regarding one of the many problems I am =20 > encountering while trying to do a dictionary. In modern Huastecan > =20 > Nahuatl, auxiliary verb constructions in "-toc" can have two =20 > different but related meanings, depending on the main verb. The first > =20= > > meaning is the present perfect (antepresente). So, for example, from > =20 > "ninehnemi", "I walk", we go to "ninehnentoc", "I have walked". =20 > Pretty much all verbs can work like this. However, some verbs, while > =20 > taking this meaning with the "-toc", can have another meaning: the > =20 > state resulting from having completed that action. So, for example, > =20 > from the reflexive verb "cehuia, nimo", we have "nimocehuia", "I sit > =20 > down". With the "-toc" construction it will have two meanings: first, > =20= > > the present perfect, "nimocehuihtoc", I have sat down"; second, the > =20 > resulting state, "I am seated". There are many, many examples. Here > =20 > is one more: "tlamixtemi", "it gets cloudy", "tlamixtentoc", 1. "it > =20 > has gotten cloudy"; 2. "it is cloudy". The first example, =20 > "ninehnentoc", like most verbs in Nahuatl will not take this second > =20 > meaning. You wouldn't say, "I am walked". > Now this makes sense. The class 1 verb "o", "to lay down", which = > =20 > forms the auxiliary construction "-toc" is a preterite-as-present > =20 > verb. But isn't this perhaps what preterite-as-present verbs are all > =20 > about? What does it mean when you say that a completed action refers > =20 > to the present. Well, the logical answer that pops into my head is > =20 > that who or whatever did that action kind of remains for a while in > =20 > the state in which they were left after completing the action. And > =20 > that "remaining for a while" shifts things into the present. Perhaps > =20 > we should stop translating the "-toc" construction from classical > =20 > Nahuatl as "someone lies doing something". It seems to me that =20 > "laying down" after doing something is a pretty good metaphor for > =20 > refering to the state achieved after completing the action. > Also I imagine that we could talk for a while about the many = > ways =20 > the Nahua mind uses the preterite tense. > Now, getting closer to my question. The use of "-toc" to throw = > any =20 > verb into the present perfect tense is something that should be =20 > treated in a grammar book , in the chapter on auxiliary verb =20 > constructions formed with the connective "-ti-". But the fact that > =20 > some verbs go into a "resultant state" mode by means of this =20 > construction, perhaps merits mention in the dictionary. My question > =20 > is, should this mention be made under the entry for the main verb, > =20 > or, is this "resultant state" a big enough shift of meaning to =20 > warrant a separate dictionary entry? At one point I was asking myself > =20= > > if perhaps the "-toc" construction is making the transition to =20 > "nounness", in other words, is "nimocehuihtoc", "I am seated", on the > =20= > > verge of meaning "I am a seated thing"? But then I realized that you > =20 > can change tenses. For example, "nimocehuihtoz": 1. "I will have sat > =20 > down", 2. "I will be seated". The other problem with option 2 is, > =20 > what kind of word is this? If it's not a noun, that it's nothing more > =20= > > than a special use of a verb tense. > Ok, so why am I still considering option 1? The native speakers = > feel =20 > that this meaning shift is a pretty big deal. > Any suggestions? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Universidad Aut=C3=B3noma de Zacatecas > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci=C3=B3n Etnol=C3=B3gica de > Zacatecas, = > A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist=C3=B3rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M=C3=A9xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > www.macehualli.org > =EF=BF=BC > > > > > --Apple-Mail-2-222258631 > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; > boundary=Apple-Mail-3-222258631 > > > --Apple-Mail-3-222258631 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Type: text/html; > charset=ISO-8859-1 > > = > -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Listeros,
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> I have a > = > question regarding one of the many problems I am encountering while > = > trying to do a dictionary. In modern Huastecan Nahuatl, auxiliary > verb = > constructions in "-toc" can have two different but related meanings, > = > depending on the main verb. The first meaning is the present perfect > = > (antepresente). So, for example, from "ninehnemi", "I walk", we go to > = > "ninehnentoc", "I have walked". Pretty much all verbs can work like > = > this. However, some verbs, while taking this meaning with the "-toc", > = > can have another meaning: the state resulting from having completed > that = > action. So, for example, from the reflexive verb "cehuia, nimo", we > have = > "nimocehuia", "I sit down". With the "-toc" construction it will have > = > two meanings: first, the present perfect, "nimocehuihtoc", I have sat > = > down"; second, the resulting state, "I am seated". There are many, > many = > examples. Here is one more: "tlamixtemi", "it gets cloudy", = > "tlamixtentoc", 1. "it has gotten cloudy"; 2. "it is cloudy". The > first = > example, "ninehnentoc", like most verbs in Nahuatl will not take this > = > second meaning. You wouldn't say, "I am walked".
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> Now this > = > makes sense. The class 1 verb "o", "to lay down", which forms the = > auxiliary construction "-toc" is a preterite-as-present verb. But > isn't = > this perhaps what preterite-as-present verbs are all about? What does > it = > mean when you say that a completed action refers to the present. > Well, = > the logical answer that pops into my head is that who or whatever did > = > that action kind of remains for a while in the state in which they > were = > left after completing the action. And that "remaining for a while" = > shifts things into the present. Perhaps we should stop translating > the = > "-toc" construction from classical Nahuatl as "someone lies doing = > something". It seems to me that "laying down" after doing something > is a = > pretty good metaphor for refering to the state achieved after > completing = > the action.=A0
style=3D"white-space:pre"> Also=A0I imagine that we could = > talk for a while about the many ways the Nahua mind uses the > preterite = > tense.
style=3D"white-space:pre">= > Now, getting closer to my question. The use of "-toc" to = > throw any verb into the present perfect tense is something that > should = > be treated in a grammar book , in the chapter on auxiliary verb = > constructions formed with the connective "-ti-". But the fact that > some = > verbs go into a "resultant state" mode by means of this construction, > = > perhaps merits mention in the dictionary. My question is, should this > = > mention be made under the entry for the main verb, or, is this = > "resultant state" a big enough shift of meaning to warrant a separate > = > dictionary entry? At one point I was asking myself if perhaps the > "-toc" = > construction is making the transition to "nounness", in other words, > is = > "nimocehuihtoc", "I am seated", on the verge of meaning "I am a > seated = > thing"? But then I realized that you can change tenses. For example, > = > "nimocehuihtoz": 1. "I will have sat down", 2. "I will be seated". > The = > other problem with option 2 is, what kind of word is this? If it's > not a = > noun, that it's nothing more than a special use of a verb = > tense.=A0
style=3D"white-space:pre"> Ok, so why am I still considering > = > option 1? The native speakers feel that this meaning shift is a > pretty = > big deal.
style=3D"white-space:pre"> Any = > suggestions?
John

class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = > border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; > = > font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; > font-weight: = > normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: > auto; = > -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = > -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = > white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = > border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; > = > font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; > font-weight: = > normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: > auto; = > -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = > -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = > white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = > border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; > = > font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; > font-weight: = > normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: > auto; = > -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = > -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = > white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = > border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; > = > font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; > font-weight: = > normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: > auto; = > -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = > -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = > white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; ">

style=3D"margin: = > 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">John Sullivan, Ph.D.

style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Profesor de lengua y > cultura = > nahua

face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px = > Helvetica">Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas

style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Instituto de Docencia e > = > Investigaci=F3n Etnol=F3gica de Zacatecas, A.C.

style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Tacuba 152, int. = > 47

face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Centro > = > Hist=F3rico

0.0px"> face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px = > Helvetica">Zacatecas, Zac. 98000

= > 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> = > 12.0px Helvetica">M=E9xico

= > 0.0px 0.0px"> 12.0px = > Helvetica">Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415

= > 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416

= > style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"> size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Domicilio: +52 (492) = > 768-6048

= > face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px > Helvetica">Celular: = > +52 (492) 118-0854

0.0px"> Helvetica"> href=3D"mailto:idiez at mac.com">idiez at mac.com

style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">www.idiez.org.mx face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px = > Helvetica">

0.0px"> face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px = > Helvetica">www.macehualli.org
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

<= > /SPAN>
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= > > --Apple-Mail-3-222258631-- > > --Apple-Mail-2-222258631-- > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Wed Dec 13 01:54:28 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:54:28 -0600 Subject: -tic Message-ID: Here goes another question: it's about nouns ending in -tic. The grammars say that the process is: 1. noun + ti = a class 1 verb which means "to become (like) that noun. 2. the class 1 verb goes into the preterite by adding "-c" (singular) and "-queh" (plural), [actually -c-?, singular; and -que-h, plural]. 3. this preterite form is reinterpreted as a noun which is like, or has the quality of the imbedded noun. And if I'm not mistaken, the imbedded noun can only be the combining form of: 1. a regular noun ending in -tl, tli, -li, -in, -?; or 2. a preterite agentive (combining form: -ca). The problem is that in modern Huastecan Nahuatl I am seeing many, many -tic forms for which there is no identifiable noun imbed, or at least the native speakers cannot identify them. Most of the time there is a related verb or set of thematic verbs, or a related agentive form by itself, but no existing noun upon which to base the - tic form. I'll give a few examples below, but the question is this. It would seem that the -tic form would need a noun imbed. So does this mean that the missing noun did exist and now is lost, or is it possible that in some cases the -tic has become independent of its original structural requirements and been able to attach to a reduced, but not-agentive verb form? A few examples: 1. cuicuilihui, "s.t. is painted"; cuicuiloa. nic., "to paint s.t."; cuicuiltic, "s.t. multicolored". 2. canahuiya, "s.t. becomes worn out"; canahua, "to shave s.t. down"; canahuac, "s.t. shaven or thinned out", canactzin, "s.t. thin", canactic, "s.t. thin, shaved down or worn out" 3. huihui, "to be crazy"; huihuitic, "a stupid or crazy person". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.macehualli.org www.idiez.org.mx ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 05:11:07 2006 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 06:11:07 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 31, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think it is quite possible that the -tic ending has become a general adjectival ending in Huasteca nahuatl (and I am not sure if it wasn't also in Classic nahuatl where there were at least some -tic adjectivals formed from verbs). In Cuentepec of Morelos Nahuatl it is productive in making new loan adjectives and blue for example is said *azultik*. Magnus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Dec 13 16:37:35 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:37:35 -0500 Subject: -tic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, This is probably a little too much off the top of my head, but I'll try to think as I write. First, I think that when we're doing grammatical descriptions of a modern Nahuatl dialect or of an older dialect like "classical", we should constantly be asking ourselves whether we think we're formulating a structural description or a historical development. When does anyone point out that some variety of the language has restructured some part of word formation? That aside, it seems to me that too frequently we find ourselves describing word formation (i.e., morphology) as if non-basic words (like tlacatl, pozoni, cuahuitl, etc.) came from some other surface words. Now stop me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the word "chantli" occurs as an independent word in any of the three Molina dictionaries; and it doesn't occur in any sentence of the Florentine Codex (only in a paragraph header on p. 275 of the Dibble and Anderson edition). Let's suppose that we had no attestation of the independent word "chantli" (or of various other normally possessed entities, like those relating to kinship). Would anybody doubt that "chan(tli)" (I always unapologetically refer to noun morphemes along with their absolutive suffixes for sake of easy identification) is a morpheme?? Its existence is supported by the occurrence of many words which are parallel to words derived from simple noun morphemes: nochan ninochantia chaneh mochantzinco teopixcachantli Comments on cuicuilihui.... I don't know enough about Huaxteca Nahuatl, so I'll refer to similar data from the 16th century. The possible morpheme "ihcuiloa:" which many people would believe to be basic is not (the causative is derived from the intransitive); the disappearance of the "ih-" is normal in reduplicated forms. "cuicuilihui" and "cuicuiltic" cannot be derived one from the other, and since -ihui intransitives and -tic (noun/adjective) are derived from nouns, I would assume the shape of the morpheme to be driven at least as deep as "ihcuilli". But since that "ih-" looks suspiciously like the one in "ihmati" and possibly the one in "ihpotza" -- and "cuilli" *might* be a patientive noun derived from "cui" (related, among other things to carving and hand strokes), I could imagine a non-cautious analyst going beyond "ihcuilli" as the morpheme. Comments on canahuiya.... Using the criterion of "where you have to start to get to the various word forms", I would assume that there has to be potential form "canactli", which is a common patientive noun form from verbs which end in -ahua... and "canahuac" looks like the so-called preterit of "canahua". "canahuiya" looks suspiciously like a 'back-formation', similar to the "nipinahua / nipinahui" formation, in which some dialects adjust the already intransitive "nipinahua" (ending in -a, a little unusual for intransitives) to the more common intransitive -i ending. ...and the -ya certainly looks like an intransitive verber: iztaya, xocoya, hueiya, poyeya, etc, but it doesn't normally (as in "things that I know about") go on something that is already a verb (except in the case of verbings with -ti [become] (e.g., ati[y]a, ahtlehti[y]a, camohpalti[y]a, ceti[y]a, pocti[y]a, telpochti[y]a, tepitzti[y]a, zoquiti[y]a, etc.). Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Dec 13 17:02:07 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:02:07 -0500 Subject: -tic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had to blink when I saw my message come up on the screen. Obviously, "(like tlacatl, pozoni, cuahuitl, etc.)" did *not* apply to 'non-basic words' -- it applied to 'some other surface words'. ...and, no, it was not my word processor's fault; it is clinically known as a "before noon mental processing error". And my proofreader is giving a final exam right now.... > > That aside, it seems to me that too frequently we find ourselves > describing word formation (i.e., morphology) as if non-basic words (like > tlacatl, pozoni, cuahuitl, etc.) came from some other surface words. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Dec 13 18:16:31 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:16:31 -0500 Subject: Archive Searching Message-ID: Colleagues: As owner of FAMSI's Nahuatl Listserv I am happy to announce a new feature to our web interface. Thanks to the hard work of FAMSI web administrators (especially Sandy Mielke),the Nahuatl ARCHIVES are now fully indexed for dynamic searches. The Nahuatl ARCHIVES is a complete listing of all messages sent through the Nahuatl listserv since its move to FAMSI (earlier this year). Previously, these messages were only categorized by date. Now, when you visit the archives you may conduct a keyword search (such as an author, site name, or other pertinent term). I hope this will be a valued resource for not only list members, but those who happen to visit the web site for archived information. The Nahuatl ARCHIVES can be found online at: http://www.famsi.org/pipermail/nahuatl/ All messages sent prior to our switch to FAMSI (i.e., before 2006) can still be found at the "old" Nahuatl archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/nahuat-l.html John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Dec 13 19:27:12 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:27:12 -0500 Subject: Summer Nahuatl Message-ID: From: Joshua Beck [mailto:jpbeck at uchicago.edu] Date: December 13, 2006 During summer 2007, the Center for Latin American Studies at the University of Chicago will offer Intensive Aymara (http://clas.uchicago.edu/aymara.shtml) and, in collaboration with Yale University, Intensive Nahuatl (http://www.yale.edu/ycias/lais/summer.htm). Please contact Josh Beck at or (773) 702-8420 for further details. Foreign Language and Area Studies Fellowships The Summer 2007 Aymara and Nahuatl programs meet the minimum requirements to be eligible for Foreign Language and Area Studies (FLAS) fellowship funding. Graduate students at institutions that award Summer FLAS fellowships should contact their home institution's Center for Latin American Studies for instructions about how to apply. Students may also apply for FLAS fellowships through the University of Chicago Center for Latin American Studies (please see http://grad-affairs.uchicago.edu/programs/flas.html for application information) and, for the Nahuatl program, through Yale University's Council on Latin American and Iberian Studies (please contact for more information) . CIC Traveling Scholar Program Graduate students at CIC institutions (University of Illinois-Chicago , University of Illinois-Urbana/Champaign Indiana University, University of Iowa, University of Michigan, University of Minnesota, Michigan State University, Northwestern University, Ohio State University, Pennsylvania State University, Purdue University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee) may directly enroll in the Aymara institute without change in registration or increase in tuition through the CIC Traveling Scholars program. For application details, visit http://www.cic.uiuc.edu/programs/TravelingScholars/index.shtml. Josh Beck Associate Director for Programs & Development Center for Latin American Studies University of Chicago 5848 South University Avenue Chicago, IL 60637 tel. (773) 702-8420 fax (773) 702-1755 http://clas.uchicago.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lingoman at mac.com Fri Dec 15 07:24:07 2006 From: lingoman at mac.com (Doug Barr) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:24:07 -0800 Subject: Contraction? Message-ID: I've been going through *Rules of the Aztec Language* and referring to the wonderful website http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/ - since the book doesn't translate any of its words, just gives the forms - and I found this example sentence "Tla: quimocaquitin tla:catl," translated as "Que le seigneur daigne nous entendre," "May the lord deign to hear us." My main question is, does this represent "Tla: quimocaquiti in tla:catl," with the optative, and the determinative "in" shorn of its vowel and added to "quimocaquiti"? I'm also curious about the translation given as "hear *us*," vs. the Na:huatl singular object prefix and singular noun "tla:catl." Is this a Na:huatl stylistic thing? Tlazohcamati... _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lingoman at mac.com Fri Dec 15 07:38:26 2006 From: lingoman at mac.com (Doug Barr) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:38:26 -0800 Subject: Um, how many object prefix slots, again? Message-ID: OK, so I'm struggling with verbs, and I read in the archives that the verb only has two object prefix slots, but I've only seen one used up to now. Then I read in *Rules of the Aztec Language* and on a website (http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahugram.html#sec5) that there is another prefix -im- that can be used for third person plural (animate) objects if necessary. Okay, that's the second slot. Got it. Then I look more closely at the example given in the book, "Xine:chintlacualtili in nochcahua:n," "Feed my sheep for me." I parse that as "xi-ne:ch-in-TLA-cua-lti-li," "you.imperative-(for).me- them-something-eat-[causative]-[applicative]," and am very confused by the presence of "-tla-" in the verb - not so much what it's doing (providing a non-specific object for "cua") as that it seems to be occupying a third object prefix slot. Since "cua" occurs without "tla-" I'm guessing that it isn't an intrinsic part of the verb like the first syllable of "tlazohtla" - so what gives? Tlazohcamati again, Doug _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Fri Dec 15 14:54:44 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:54:44 -0600 Subject: Um, how many object prefix slots, again? In-Reply-To: <011E6E87-7496-4AAF-AD3A-F02F7A170E67@mac.com> Message-ID: Doug, Actually, in Classical Nahuatl there are four object prefix slots: specific, reflexive, non-specific human, and non-specific non-human. Normally, only one specific object can be represented by a prefix, even if there are multiple specific objects in a sentence. The exception to this is when one of the multiple specific objects is third person plural. In this case, two specific object prefixes can appear in the verb. The third person one, which would appear by itself as "quim", appears in this case as "im". This is what you are seeing in your example, "xinechintlacualtili in nochcahuan", "Feed my sheep for me". The verb is "tlacualtia, nic," and it can be broken down as "tlacual(li)", "food", + "-tia", "to provide s.t. to s.o" = "to feed s.o." or in this case the sheep. This verb, "tlacualtia" is then given an applicative suffix, which adds an object, giving, "tlacualtilia, nic," "to feed s.o. for s.o.". You now have two specific objects, the sheep and me. Normally, in this case only "me", being the most animate of the two objects, would appear as a prefix, but since the other specific object is third person plural it appears as the "in". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx? On Dec 15, 2006, at 1:38 AM, Doug Barr wrote: > OK, so I'm struggling with verbs, and I read in the archives that the > verb only has two object prefix slots, but I've only seen one used up > to now. Then I read in *Rules of the Aztec Language* and on a website > (http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahugram.html#sec5) that > there is another prefix -im- that can be used for third person plural > (animate) objects if necessary. Okay, that's the second slot. Got it. > > Then I look more closely at the example given in the book, > "Xine:chintlacualtili in nochcahua:n," "Feed my sheep for me." I > parse that as "xi-ne:ch-in-TLA-cua-lti-li," "you.imperative-(for).me- > them-something-eat-[causative]-[applicative]," and am very confused > by the presence of "-tla-" in the verb - not so much what it's doing > (providing a non-specific object for "cua") as that it seems to be > occupying a third object prefix slot. Since "cua" occurs without > "tla-" I'm guessing that it isn't an intrinsic part of the verb like > the first syllable of "tlazohtla" - so what gives? > > Tlazohcamati again, > Doug > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Fri Dec 15 14:56:00 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:56:00 -0600 Subject: Contraction? In-Reply-To: <285411D7-9A1B-4AAE-8431-E175320AEE20@mac.com> Message-ID: Doug, The first thing you would think about this phase is that it is in the admonitive mode, because of the "-tin" ending and the initial "tla" particle. But this can't be, because the verb, "caqui", "to hear s.t." only takes one object, and your phrase has two, "qui", and "mo". What we assume now is that the final "-n" of the verb was just stuck on there (perhaps the phonologists can comment on that). Anyway, we end up with "tla quimocaquiti tlacatl", "may the lord hear it", a common phrase in Nahuatl petitions. You have the verb "caqui", "to hear something" in the reverential form: reflexive prefix "mo" + verb + causative suffix. This leaves us with one specific object, "qui", which is what the verb would take anyway. The class 3 verb is conjugated in the optative mode, loosing its final vowel: "caquitia" > "caquiti". In optative sentences like this one that don't have a second person subject, two initial particles can be used, "ma" and "tla", which signals a higher degree of politeness. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx ? On Dec 15, 2006, at 1:24 AM, Doug Barr wrote: > I've been going through *Rules of the Aztec Language* and referring > to the wonderful website http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/ - since > the book doesn't translate any of its words, just gives the forms - > and I found this example sentence "Tla: quimocaquitin tla:catl," > translated as "Que le seigneur daigne nous entendre," "May the lord > deign to hear us." > > My main question is, does this represent "Tla: quimocaquiti in > tla:catl," with the optative, and the determinative "in" shorn of its > vowel and added to "quimocaquiti"? I'm also curious about the > translation given as "hear *us*," vs. the Na:huatl singular object > prefix and singular noun "tla:catl." Is this a Na:huatl stylistic > thing? > > Tlazohcamati... > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Fri Dec 22 02:29:54 2006 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:29:54 -0800 Subject: access to a copy of Portia Mansfield's PhD dissertation "The Conchero Dancers of Mexico" 1955 Message-ID: Piali everyone, I am trying to get access to a copy of Portia Mansfield's PhD dissertation "The Conchero Dancers of Mexico" 1955 at the New York University. Would anyone please steer me in the right direction to get a copy? Thanks!!! mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From sylvia at famsi.org Tue Dec 26 20:17:21 2006 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:17:21 -0500 Subject: FAMSI Announces Grantees--2007 Message-ID: Mesoamericanists, FAMSI is pleased to announce projects funded for research year 2007. Visit our website for a listing of our grantees whose projects were funded for the upcoming season through our annual grant competition: http://www.famsi.org/grants/2007fund.htm Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivist Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From sylvia at famsi.org Tue Dec 26 20:29:32 2006 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:29:32 -0500 Subject: FAMSI Anuncia Cesionarios--2007 Message-ID: Mesoamericanistas, FAMSI se complace en anunciar proyectos de investigacion financiados en el 2007. Visite nuestro sitio web para un listado de proyectos de nuestros cesionarios que fueron financiados para la estacion futura a traves de nuestra competencia anual de concesiones: http://www.famsi.org/spanish/grants/2007fund.htm Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivista Fundacion para el Avance de Estudios Mesoamericanos, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/spanish/index.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Amapohuani at aol.com Sat Dec 30 16:37:34 2006 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:37:34 EST Subject: sad news Message-ID: Estimados Listeros: Some years ago I did a joint article with Eileen Mulhare for ESTUDIOS DE CULTURA NAHUATL on rosary references in fray Pedro de Gante's 1553 DOCTRINA CHRISTIANA. Eileen's husband was going to be in Chicago in early January 2007 for a scholarly conference. Hence she contacted me and we made plans to meet at Amarit, a Thai restaurant near the Newberry Library in Chicago, IL, USA. I am currently in Chicago, working on some wonderful Carochi material, courtesy of a longterm NEH fellowship. We were both looking forward to actually seeing each other in person after corresponding for years. Her interset in early Nahuas and Nahuatl had deepened over the years and she looked forward to talking to me about her latest projects. I was going to bring up a tentative proposal for her to work with me and someone else on some more Gante material. Afterwards I was going to show her around the Newberry's Aztec Exhibit. Then yesterday I got an urgent message from her husband. I called him right away and then shortly thereafter received the email I include at the end of this email via copy-and-paste. The email speaks for itself. I end with a call for anyone who knew Eileen to contact Michael. She will be missed. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell ****EMAILFROMMICHAELHAINESFOLLOWS**** ?? I regret to convey the tragic news that my wife and your colleague Eileen Mulhare died on Saturday, December 23, 2006 at the Johns Hopkins Medical Center in Baltimore, MD.? We had been visiting relatives when she was suddenly stricken with a heart attack on Thursday, December 21, followed by a massive stroke.? It was combination of the two that eventually resulted in her death.? She was only 53.? It was possible for her to donate her kidneys and some tissues to help others.? I miss her a great deal.? We were companions for more than 25 years.? ? ??? As it says in Proverbs chapter 31: ?When one finds a worthy wife, her value is far beyond pearls.? Her husband, entrusting his heart to her, has an unfailing prize. She brings him good, and not evil, all the days of her life. ? ? Many are the women of proven worth, but you have excelled them all.? ? the woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.? ? Michael Haines ? Dr. Michael R. Haines, Ph.D. Department of Economics Colgate University 13 Oak Drive Hamilton, NY? 13346? USA Tel: 315-228-7536 Fax: 315-228-7033 e-mail: mhaines at mail.colgate.edu ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl