From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon Feb 6 21:09:45 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:09:45 -0600 Subject: Article in L A Times Message-ID: Yesterday there was an interesting article in the L A Times about a fellow teaching Nahuatl: http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-me-nahuatl5feb05,0,3957607.story?coll=la-news-learning John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Tue Feb 7 00:03:06 2006 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:03:06 EST Subject: Article in L A Times Message-ID: Fritz: That might be the same one. In any case, I will send you the hard copy in a few minutes. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 2/6/06 1:10:45 PM, schwallr at morris.umn.edu writes: > Yesterday there was an interesting article in the L A Times about a > fellow teaching Nahuatl: > > http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-me-nahuatl5feb05,0,3957607.story?col > l=la-news-learning > > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN  56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arnibionic at YAHOO.DE Tue Feb 7 16:12:21 2006 From: arnibionic at YAHOO.DE (=?iso-8859-1?q?Arnd=20S=F6lling?=) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 17:12:21 +0100 Subject: Pronouns Message-ID: Listeros, I want to thank everybody that helped me out on the nahuatl pronouns. It is very nice to be able to see different accesses/explanations of one phenomena, lexical ones, morphological ones...I have checked Carochi for the pronouns and came to see that he mentiones that forms of ne´ cannot stand alone as an answer for a question...so i thought that maybe ne´ became something like a second position clitic with less semantic qualities like the full form with -hua(tl) (that would fit into the typological linguistic theories tought at my university)...just an idea... Greetings, Arnd Sölling --------------------------------- Telefonieren Sie ohne weitere Kosten mit Ihren Freunden von PC zu PC! Jetzt Yahoo! Messenger installieren! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 9 03:15:36 2006 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Amith) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 22:15:36 -0500 Subject: Pronouns In-Reply-To: <20060207161221.64402.qmail@web25213.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Listeros, The situation in some Balsas villages is similar to that reported by Carochi. Some, but not all, villages have long and short forms: Ameyaltepec (younger speakers tend more toward -owa, older ones to -ewa endings). There are no short forms here (or, if they are, they are very rare). Ameyaltepec loses {h} word internally: newa (or nowa) tewa (or towa) yewa (or yowa) tewameh (or towameh) nanwameh yewameh (or yowameh) San Miguel Tecuiciapan (no short forms documented to date, though research is incomplete) nehwa tehwa yehwa tehwameh nenwameh yehwameh Oapan (here there are short forms, as indicated; {h} word internally creates a high pitch-accent, leading to two high pitches on words such as náwá and tó:méh) náwá (short form no) táwá (short form to) yáwá (short form yo) tó:méh (no short form) nó:méh (no short form) yó:méh (no short form) In all variants the long form is used to introduce new information in response to a question. It is not used with old information. Thus: ¿A:kino:n kitekis? Who will cut it? Can have the following responses: Náwá! Náwa nihtekis. Also possible No nihtekis. However, in response to ¿Tli:no:n tihchi:was? What will you do? Nihtekis. I will cut it. Where the verbal action is the new information, but not, ? Náwa nihtekis. ? No nihtekis. This is because the emphatic pronoun is used with new information and in the previous the subject is known whereas the predicate is not. Re: the short forms. These must always be followed by a predicate (verbal or otherwise) Thus no no: niá:s I will also go. to no: tiá:s You will also go. etc. Note the following: No nisíwawah, niman táwá. I am married, and you? The second pronoun cannot be a short form. jda Quoting Arnd Sölling : > Listeros, > I want to thank everybody that helped me out on the nahuatl > pronouns. It is very nice to be able to see different > accesses/explanations of one phenomena, lexical ones, morphological > ones...I have checked Carochi for the pronouns and came to see that > he mentiones that forms of ne´ cannot stand alone as an answer for a > question...so i thought that maybe ne´ became something like a second > position clitic with less semantic qualities like the full form with > -hua(tl) (that would fit into the typological linguistic theories > tought at my university)...just an idea... > Greetings, > Arnd Sölling > > > --------------------------------- > Telefonieren Sie ohne weitere Kosten mit Ihren Freunden von PC zu PC! > Jetzt Yahoo! Messenger installieren! -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Thu Feb 9 17:37:16 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:37:16 -0600 Subject: Friends of Uto-Aztecan Languages Conference Message-ID: >Full Title: Friends of Uto-Aztecan Languages Conference >Short Title: FUAC > >Date: 23-Aug-2006 - 27-Aug-2006 >Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA >Contact Person: Mauricio Mixco >Meeting Email: m.mixco at utah.edu > >Linguistic Field(s): General Linguistics > >Language Family(ies): Uto-Aztecan > >Call Deadline: 15-Mar-2006 > >Meeting Description: > >The FRIENDS OF UTO-AZTECAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE will now be held August >23-27, 2006, on the University of Utah campus in Salt Lake City, Utah. > >FRIENDS OF UTO-AZTECAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE > >Call for Papers >Dates: The FRIENDS OF UTO-AZTECAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE (previously >announced for June 29-July 1) will now be held August 23-27, 2006, on the >University of Utah campus in Salt Lake City, Utah. > >Call for papers: We invite papers dealing with any aspect of Uto-Aztecan >languages and cultures. Native American participants are especially invited. >Papers are 20 minutes each in length, with an additional 10 minutes for >discussion. > >Deadline: ABSTRACTS MUST BE RECEIVED by March 15, 2006. The program >committee will attempt to provide notification of acceptance by March 30 (by >e-mail). > >Please note: >Bilingual Session presentations can be in Spanish or English. Abstracts in >Spanish (or English) can be submitted for consideration for this session. > >Abstract submission guidelines: > - The abstract should be no more than one page in length; shorter is >acceptable. It should include the title of the paper and the name (or >names) of the author/authors, together with the author's/authors' >affiliation. (If the paper is accepted, this abstract will be reproduced in >conference materials to be distributed to other participants.) > >- Abstracts should be submitted by e-mail. Submissions should be in >Microsoft Word document, Rich Text Format (RTF), or Portable Document Format >(PDF). If possible, avoid special fonts (or arrange with the organizers so >they can be read). > >- Please include with your abstract appropriate contact details, which >include: contact author's name, e-mail address for the period of time from >January to June 2006, and a telephone contact number. > >- Only one abstract per person may be submitted. (The only exception may be >in instances where at least one of the papers has multiple authors.) > >- Address: Please send abstracts to: lyle.campbell at linguistics.utah.edu or >m.mixco at utah.edu (by March 15, 2006). > >Accommodations: University Guest House, the official conference hotel - 100 >yards from CAIL (Center for American Indian Languages) and 10 minutes from >meeting venue. To book accommodations, please contact the Guest House >directly (mention FUAC for the conference booking): > >University Guest House University of Utah >110 South Fort Douglas Blvd. >Salt Lake City, Utah 84113-5036 >Toll free: 1-888-416-4075 (or 801-587-1000), Fax 801-587-1001 >Website www.guesthouse.utah.edu > (Please make reservations early, since rooms will be held for the >conference only until early July.) > >Sponsors: The sponsors for this conference will include: (1) Center for >American Indian Languages (CAIL), (2) Office of the Vice-President for >Diversity, (3) Department of Linguistics, (4) College of Humanities, and (5) >the O.C. Tanner Humanities Center, all of the University of Utah. > >Additional information: for further information contact: Mauricio J. Mixco >at m.mixco at utah.edu or Lyle Campbell (not after April) at >lyle.campbell at linguistics.utah.edu. If you need information not easily >arranged via e-mail, please call: Tel. 801-587-0720 or 801-581-3441 during >business hours (Mountain Standard Time), or Fax 801-585-7351. > > >TALLER DE LOS AMIGOS DE LAS LENGUAS YUTO-AZTECAS > >Se Solicitan Ponencias >Fechas: El Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas yuto-aztecas (previamente >anunciado para el 29 de junio - 1 de julio) ahora se realizará del 23 al 27 >de agosto, 2006, en la Universidad de Utah en Salt Lake City, Utah. > >Solicitud de Ponencias: Solicitamos ponencias sobre cualquier aspecto de >las lenguas o culturas yuto-aztecas. Las ponencias serán de 20 minutos, con >10 minutos para preguntas y comentarios. > >Plazo: LOS RESÚMENES DEBEN LLEGAR para el 15 de marzo, 2006. El comité del >programa hará todo lo posible para notificarles de su inclusión para fines >de marzo (por correo electrónico). > >Notable: >Las sesiones serán bilingües: Se podrá emplear cualquiera de las dos >lenguas en las ponencias. Los resúmenes podrán ser en español (o en >inglés). > >Pautas para los resúmenes: > - El resumen no excederá una cuartilla. Deberá incluir el título de la >ponencia y el nombre del autor (o autores), junto con su filiación >profesional. (Si la ponencia es aceptada, se reproducirá su resumen con los >materiales distribuidos a los demás partícipes.) > >- Los resúmenes se envían por correo electrónico. Deberá de ser un >documento Microsoft Word, Rich Text Format (RTF), o Portable Document Format >(PDF). Si le es posible, evite fuentes especiales (o comuníquese con los >organizadores para poder leerlos). > >- Favor de incluir con su resumen detalles de contacto apropriados, como >son: el nombre del autor, cuenta electrónica, para el período entre enero y >junio del 2006, junto con un número de teléfono. > >- Se aceptará un solo resumen por partícipe. (la única excepción podrá ser >cuando por lo menos una de las ponencias tenga más de un autor.) > >- Dirección: Favor de enviar su resumen a: >lyle.campbell at linguistics.utah.edu o a m.mixco at utah.edu (para el 15 de marzo >del 2006). > >Hospedaje: University Guest House (casa de huéspedes de la universidad), es >el hotel oficial para congresos - a 100 metros de CAIL (Center for American >Indian Languages) y a diez minutos de local de las sesiones. Para pedir su >hospedaje, favor de comunicarse con la Guest House directamente (haga el >favor de mencionar el taller FUAC para obtener los precios módicos del >taller): > >University Guest House University of Utah >110 South Fort Douglas Blvd. >Salt Lake City, Utah 84113-5036 >Gratuito: 1-888-416-4075 (or 801-587-1000), Fax 801-587-1001 >Website www.guesthouse.utah.edu > (Favor de reservar su hospedaje con anticipación, ya que se mantienen >apartadas las habitaciones solamente hasta principios de julio.) > >Patrocinadores: Los patrocinadores del taller son: (1) Center for American >Indian Languages (CAIL), (2) Office of the Vice-President for Diversity, (3) >Department of Linguistics, (4) College of Humanities, and (5) the O.C. >Tanner Humanities Center, todos de la Universidad de Utah. > >Información adicional: Para más información, favor de comunicarse con: con >Mauricio J. Mixco (m.mixco at utah.edu) o (sólo hasta abril) Lyle Campbell >(lyle.campbell at linguistics.utah.edu). Si necesita información dificil de >comunicar por correo electrónico, favor de llamar al: Tel. 801-587-0720 or >801-581-3441 durante las horas de trabajo (Mountain Standard Time/hora de la >montaña), o marque el Fax 801-585-7351. > From takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP Thu Feb 16 03:00:47 2006 From: takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:00:47 +0900 Subject: cuaxochtli Message-ID: Hello. Could anyone help me with the etimology of "cuaxochtli"(land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do with "cuaitl" and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm reading, I've also seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead of "cuaxochtli". Thanks in advance for your help. Yukitaka Inoue Language Education Center, Ritsumeikan University (Kyoto, Japan) takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu Feb 16 05:57:57 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:57:57 -0500 Subject: cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <000901c632a5$2f6eeff0$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: Yukitaka, People who are wiser than I am believe that any Nahuatl "possible stem" that has more than one syllable is probably made up of more than one morpheme, but if "cuaxochtli" is really a noun-noun compound, I am cautious enough to want to see some evidence of the semantic relationship between "head" and "flower" on the one hand and "land border" on the other. I don't think the case is very strong for considering "cuaxochtli" to be a compound, but I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise. |8-) I include below some samples of it.... Saludos, Joe 55m, 71m1, and 71m2 refer to the three Molina dictionaries of the 16th dictionary. "b." numbers refer to books of the Florentine Codex. *cuaxochtli *** altepecuaxochtli. sitio por cerco del pueblo. . 55m-18 altepecuaxochquetza =n. sitio poner assi. . 55m-18 altepecuaxochtli. sitio por cerco del pueblo. . 71m1-19 altepecuaxochquetza =n. sitio poner assi. . 71m1-19 altepecuaxochquetza =n=onaltepecuaxochquetz. amojonar los terminos del pueblo. . 71m2-1 altepecuaxochtli. terminos o mojones de pueblo o ciudad. . 71m2-1 cuacuaxochquetza , tla-. he sets separate boundaries. . b.10 f.3 cuacuaxochtiloco , ne-. there is establishment of boundaries. . b.10 f.12 cuaxochco , te-. someone's land limit. . b.10 f.12 cuaxochnamiqui =nite. alindar vna eredad con otra. . 55m-00 cuaxochnamiqui =te. vezino en^terminos. . 55m-19 cuaxochnamiquiliztli =te. vezindad assi. . 55m-19 cuaxochnamiqui =nite. alindar vna eredad con otra. . 71m1-2 cuaxochnamiqui =te. vezino en terminos. . 71m1-20 cuaxochnamiquiliztli =te. vezindad assi. . 71m1-20 cuaxochnamiqui =nite=onitecuaxochnamic. alindar heredad conla de otro. . 71m2-15 cuaxochnamiqui =tito=otitocuaxochnamicque. alindar heredad conla de otro. . 71m2-15 cuaxochnamiqui =te. el que tiene su heredad junto ala de otro. . 71m2-18 cuaxochnamiqui , mo-. . . b.10 f.12 cuaxochpanahuiltia =nite. echar del termino; echar de^termino. . 55m-7 cuaxochquechilia =nite. deslindar heredades. . 71m1-7 cuaxochquetza =ni. amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades; deslindar heredades; amojonar terminos. . 55m-00 cuaxochquetza , tla-. he sets boundaries. . b.10 f.3 cuaxochquetza =ni=onicuaxochquetz. amojonar terminos, o lindes. . 71m2-15 cuaxochquetzqui =tla. amojonador de heredades. . 71m2-23 cuaxochquetztli =tla. deslindada heredad; heredad amojonada. . 55m-5 cuaxochtia =nite. amojonar terminos. . 71m1-2 cuaxochtia =nite=onitecuaxochti. amojonar terminos, o lindes. . 71m2-15 cuaxochtli. linde entre eredades; linde entre heredades; mojon o linde de eredad; mojon o linde de heredad; termino; o linde de tierras; o de ciudades. . 55m-12 milcuaxoch. large lizard. . b.10 f.11 milcuaxochtli. long-tailed lizard. . b.2 f.10 tetl cuaxochmachiyotl. mojon piedra. . 55m-14 Quoting Yukitaka Inoue Okubo : > Hello. Could anyone help me with the etimology of "cuaxochtli"(land border, > lindero)? > Does it have something to do with "cuaitl" and/or "xochitl"? In some > colonial documents I'm reading, I've also seen the form "cuaxochitli" > instead of "cuaxochtli". From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Feb 16 09:32:35 2006 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:32:35 +0000 Subject: cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <000901c632a5$2f6eeff0$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: --- Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: > Hello. Could anyone help me with the etymology of `cuaxochtli' > (land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do > with "cuaitl" and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm > reading, I've also seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead ... Uhh. `It-is-a-head-flower'. Was there a custom somewhere, of planting flowering bushes to mark land borders? Citlalyani From takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP Thu Feb 16 17:41:19 2006 From: takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 02:41:19 +0900 Subject: cuaxochtli Message-ID: Anthony and Joe: Thank you for your comments. The problem is that I don't understand exactly what cuaxochtli means. That is, if it is a some kind of clear border"line",or places with certain extention of surface(for example, a hill or mountain). This question made me to start thinking of the possibility of a compound. Any way, I will check if "head" and "flower" could have semantic relation, or not, with land border (or land itself). Yukitaka Inoue O. > --- Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: >> Hello. Could anyone help me with the etymology of `cuaxochtli' >> (land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do >> with "cuaitl" and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm >> reading, I've also seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead ... > > Uhh. `It-is-a-head-flower'. Was there a custom somewhere, of planting > flowering bushes to mark land borders? > > Citlalyani > > From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Thu Feb 16 17:59:05 2006 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:59:05 -0500 Subject: cuaxochtli Message-ID: Cactus and agaves (especially agaves -- magueyes) are planted to mark the borders between fields all over central Mexico. I don't know whether the flowers of nopales, organos, and/or magueyes are called "xochitl" or whether this could have anything to do with "cuaxochitli". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Frye Latin American & Caribbean Studies - LACS International Institute, University of Michigan 2607 School of Social Work Bldg Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106 tel (734) 647 0844 - fax (734) 615-8880 -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:33 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: cuaxochtli --- Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: > Hello. Could anyone help me with the etymology of `cuaxochtli' > (land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do with "cuaitl" > and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm reading, I've also > seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead ... Uhh. `It-is-a-head-flower'. Was there a custom somewhere, of planting flowering bushes to mark land borders? Citlalyani From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Feb 16 18:20:19 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:20:19 -0500 Subject: cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <001b01c63320$31e88590$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: If you come up with a semantic relation of "head-flower" or even "flower-head" for "borderline," then I'll love to hear about it. Following Joe's lead, it's obvious from experience that, while some people may hope that any noun with apparently two or more parts such as cuaxochitl seems like it can be parsed, that just ain't the case. For example, in Miami-Illinois, a native North American language, there are many nice, really *long* words that just can't be chopped up. /kiteehpikwanwa/, the term for the species of carp known in English as the buffalo fish comes to mind. Now, while a lot of terms can be cut up, such as /myaalameekwa/ 'channel catfish' (/myaal- 'ugly, gaunt' and /-(a)meekw-/ 'fish', /kiteepihkwanw-/ is just its own morpheme, semantically unanalyzable. cuaxoch- *could be* homophonous with cua-xoch- 'head-flower', but it may not be. Vowel length is always a question, too. Michael Quoting Yukitaka Inoue Okubo : > Anthony and Joe: > > Thank you for your comments. > The problem is that I don't understand exactly what cuaxochtli means. That > is, if it is a some kind of clear border"line",or places with certain > extention of surface(for example, a hill or mountain). This question made me > > to start thinking of the possibility of a compound. > Any way, I will check if "head" and "flower" could have semantic relation, > or not, with land border (or land itself). > > Yukitaka Inoue O. > > > > > > --- Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: > >> Hello. Could anyone help me with the etymology of `cuaxochtli' > >> (land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do > >> with "cuaitl" and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm > >> reading, I've also seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead ... > > > > Uhh. `It-is-a-head-flower'. Was there a custom somewhere, of planting > > flowering bushes to mark land borders? > > > > Citlalyani > > > > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Feb 16 18:27:32 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:27:32 -0500 Subject: cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, this shows some promise. Michael Quoting "Frye, David" : > Cactus and agaves (especially agaves -- magueyes) are planted to mark > the borders between fields all over central Mexico. I don't know whether > the flowers of nopales, organos, and/or magueyes are called "xochitl" or > whether this could have anything to do with "cuaxochitli". > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > David Frye > Latin American & Caribbean Studies - LACS > International Institute, University of Michigan > 2607 School of Social Work Bldg > Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106 > tel (734) 647 0844 - fax (734) 615-8880 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion > [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:33 AM > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: cuaxochtli > > --- Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: > > Hello. Could anyone help me with the etymology of `cuaxochtli' > > (land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do with "cuaitl" > > and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm reading, I've also > > seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead ... > > Uhh. `It-is-a-head-flower'. Was there a custom somewhere, of planting > flowering bushes to mark land borders? > > Citlalyani > From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Fri Feb 17 20:58:07 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:58:07 -0600 Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 Subject: Cuaxochtli From: Karen Dakin To: I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) 'tree' plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still are) boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at least during the time they bloom. Karen Dakin From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Feb 17 22:12:55 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:12:55 -0600 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060217145707.044b06c8@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: I asked my students today if they have heard of cua/cuauh-xochitl/xochtli/xochihtli. First they said "cuauhxochitl", "flor de árbol", but then someone came up with the word "axochtli". It contains the -xochtli portion given at the beginning of this discussion, which allows us to depart from "flower". Anyway in Northern Veracruz "axochtli" is a canal where water flows: it can either be an irrigation ditch in a field, or the drainage ditch (only about 4 or 5 inches wide and maybe 2 inches deep) which runs along the side of a house. Now for speculation: both presumably run along the side of something (a field or a house) and thus might refer to a boundary. Now, how does "cuahuitl" fit into this? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:58 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 > Subject: Cuaxochtli > From: Karen Dakin > To: > > > > I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in > Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) > 'tree' > plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still > are) > boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at > least > during the time they bloom. > > Karen Dakin > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From avanthooft at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 18 21:09:47 2006 From: avanthooft at YAHOO.COM (Anuschka) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 15:09:47 -0600 Subject: question about FUAC Message-ID: Last week I received from the Nahuatl/list a call for papers for the Friends of Uto-Aztecan Languages Conference to be held in August. I wonder whether the congress is for linguists only or whether anthropologists and people from other social sciencies or humanities will also be attending. Is the FUAC the place to be when I'm doing research on Huastecan Nahuatl oral tradition and would like to participate and exchange ideas with specialists who work on the relation between language and culture, without being a specialist in linguistics? Anuschka van 't Hooft Universidad Autonoma de San Luis Potosi __________________________________________________ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ From takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP Mon Feb 20 11:03:52 2006 From: takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:03:52 +0900 Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: Thank you for many suggestions. I'd like to have just one question for John. "Axochtli" (for ditch) in Northern Veracruz is related to flower planting? For example, there are many flower field, or sometimes they plant flowers around their houses? It seems interesting to think if "xochtli" (of "axochtli") just refer to the boundary without relating to flowers, or if it has something to do with "flower". Yukitaka takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:12 AM Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli I asked my students today if they have heard of cua/cuauh-xochitl/xochtli/xochihtli. First they said "cuauhxochitl", "flor de árbol", but then someone came up with the word "axochtli". It contains the -xochtli portion given at the beginning of this discussion, which allows us to depart from "flower". Anyway in Northern Veracruz "axochtli" is a canal where water flows: it can either be an irrigation ditch in a field, or the drainage ditch (only about 4 or 5 inches wide and maybe 2 inches deep) which runs along the side of a house. Now for speculation: both presumably run along the side of something (a field or a house) and thus might refer to a boundary. Now, how does "cuahuitl" fit into this? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:58 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 > Subject: Cuaxochtli > From: Karen Dakin > To: > > > > I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in > Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) > 'tree' > plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still are) > boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at least > during the time they bloom. > > Karen Dakin > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 20 11:29:13 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 06:29:13 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <000b01c6360d$56012c30$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: I'd like to propose that we turn around 180 degrees again and consider cuaxoch- a **morpheme** meaning "boundary marker". 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is more than like a stone...a series of stones....or just one stone. Not a ditch around a house. 2) the cuauhuitl + xoch- suggestion can only be off the mark, given that the chroniclers were very careful about writing "u". In other words, we do not have anywhere "cuauhxochtli"...and we should have, if cuahuitl were the initial morpheme of this term. 3) If we cut this cuaxochtli into two parts, where one is cuaitl 'head', what is *xochtli? There is no *xochtli in the Florentine or Molina. 4) A two-syllable morpheme is certainly not uncommon for Nahuatl. Michael Quoting Yukitaka Inoue Okubo : > Thank you for many suggestions. > I'd like to have just one question for John. > "Axochtli" (for ditch) in Northern Veracruz is related to flower planting? > For example, there are many flower field, or sometimes they plant flowers > around their houses? > It seems interesting to think if "xochtli" (of "axochtli") just refer to the > > boundary without relating to flowers, or if it has something to do with > "flower". > > Yukitaka > takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:12 AM > Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli > > > I asked my students today if they have heard of > cua/cuauh-xochitl/xochtli/xochihtli. First they said "cuauhxochitl", > "flor de árbol", but then someone came up with the word "axochtli". It > contains the -xochtli portion given at the beginning of this > discussion, which allows us to depart from "flower". Anyway in > Northern Veracruz "axochtli" is a canal where water flows: it can > either be an irrigation ditch in a field, or the drainage ditch (only > about 4 or 5 inches wide and maybe 2 inches deep) which runs along the > side of a house. Now for speculation: both presumably run along the > side of something (a field or a house) and thus might refer to a > boundary. Now, how does "cuahuitl" fit into this? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Académica de Idiomas > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:58 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 > > Subject: Cuaxochtli > > From: Karen Dakin > > To: > > > > > > > > I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in > > Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) > > 'tree' > > plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still are) > > boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at least > > during the time they bloom. > > > > Karen Dakin > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Académica de Idiomas > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 20 11:33:23 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 06:33:23 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <1140434953.43f9a809d49aa@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Quoting mmccaffe at indiana.edu: > I'd like to propose that we turn around 180 degrees again and consider > cuaxoch- > a **morpheme** meaning "boundary marker". > > 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is more > > than like a stone... That should've read "more than likely something like a stone". From takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP Mon Feb 20 12:26:27 2006 From: takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:26:27 +0900 Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: Michael, I agree with you in many points. I started with "cuaxochtli", form which appears in Molina, but the colonial documents I've been reading has many variations. Just some examples: quaxochitl, quaxochitli, quacxotli, quachxotli, quacxochi These documents generally have many orthografic problems. On the other hand, the meaning of "boundery marker (at least of stone)" does not seem to me very true, because they use the Spanish word "mojon" to refer to "stone-boundary markers". Yukitaka ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli > I'd like to propose that we turn around 180 degrees again and consider > cuaxoch- > a **morpheme** meaning "boundary marker". > > 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is > more > than like a stone...a series of stones....or just one stone. Not a ditch > around a house. > > 2) the cuauhuitl + xoch- suggestion can only be off the mark, given that > the > chroniclers were very careful about writing "u". In other words, we do not > have anywhere "cuauhxochtli"...and we should have, if cuahuitl were the > initial morpheme of this term. > > 3) If we cut this cuaxochtli into two parts, where one is cuaitl 'head', > what > is *xochtli? There is no *xochtli in the Florentine or Molina. > > 4) A two-syllable morpheme is certainly not uncommon for Nahuatl. > > Michael > > > Quoting Yukitaka Inoue Okubo : > >> Thank you for many suggestions. >> I'd like to have just one question for John. >> "Axochtli" (for ditch) in Northern Veracruz is related to flower >> planting? >> For example, there are many flower field, or sometimes they plant flowers >> around their houses? >> It seems interesting to think if "xochtli" (of "axochtli") just refer to >> the >> >> boundary without relating to flowers, or if it has something to do with >> "flower". >> >> Yukitaka >> takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:12 AM >> Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli >> >> >> I asked my students today if they have heard of >> cua/cuauh-xochitl/xochtli/xochihtli. First they said "cuauhxochitl", >> "flor de árbol", but then someone came up with the word "axochtli". It >> contains the -xochtli portion given at the beginning of this >> discussion, which allows us to depart from "flower". Anyway in >> Northern Veracruz "axochtli" is a canal where water flows: it can >> either be an irrigation ditch in a field, or the drainage ditch (only >> about 4 or 5 inches wide and maybe 2 inches deep) which runs along the >> side of a house. Now for speculation: both presumably run along the >> side of something (a field or a house) and thus might refer to a >> boundary. Now, how does "cuahuitl" fit into this? >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >> Unidad Académica de Idiomas >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >> Director >> Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. >> Tacuba 152, int. 47 >> Centro Histórico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> México >> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 >> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 >> idiez at mac.com >> www.idiez.org.mx >> >> On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:58 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: >> >> > Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 >> > Subject: Cuaxochtli >> > From: Karen Dakin >> > To: >> > >> > >> > >> > I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in >> > Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) >> > 'tree' >> > plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still >> > are) >> > boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at >> > least >> > during the time they bloom. >> > >> > Karen Dakin >> > >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >> Unidad Académica de Idiomas >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >> Director >> Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. >> Tacuba 152, int. 47 >> Centro Histórico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> México >> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 >> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 >> idiez at mac.com >> www.idiez.org.mx >> > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 20 12:35:29 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 07:35:29 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <001101c63618$df4b3200$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: Quoting Yukitaka Inoue Okubo : > Michael, > > I agree with you in many points. > I started with "cuaxochtli", form which appears in Molina, but the colonial > documents I've been reading has many variations. Just some examples: > quaxochitl, quaxochitli, quacxotli, quachxotli, quacxochi > These documents generally have many orthografic problems. This is true. But please note again that none of these has a "u", in reference to the unusual *cuauhxoch- suggestion. There is a tremendous amount of variation in the items that you note above. The ones with "c" and "ch" are certainly curious. Michael From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Mon Feb 20 13:32:44 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:32:44 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <1140438929.43f9b7912700e@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: > There is a tremendous amount of variation in the items that you note > above. > The ones with "c" and "ch" are certainly curious. > And suggest that the "cua" of "cuaxochtli" may stand for a syllable closed by a consonant, which would most likely be the "saltillo" which is in some regional dialects pronounced as [h], in others as glottal stop, and in yet others as a gemination of whatever the following consonant is. It is not entirely unknown for the saltillo to appear in colonial-peiod texts as "c" which has led Lockhart to posit historically underlying [k] for saltillo in at least some contexts. A partial assimilation of cuacxochtli could yield cuachxochtli. Full assimilation of chx to geminate -xx- is attested. There is a lot of colonial-period, probably regional, variation among xochitl and xochtli for 'flower.' Xochitli is problematical, because that implies xochi+saltillo preceding the -tli form of the absolutive suffix. There IS xochih- in xochihcualli 'fruit' (nowadays specifically 'banana'). For what it is worth, there are almost certainly unrelated homophones xochiyotl 'essence of flowers' and 'fat, suet.' The first is derived from xochi-tl by the obvious process of adding -yo-tl. The other is probably related to chiyan-tli 'oilseed' in a very non-obvious way. If one looks into the Spanish-to-Nahuatl side of Molina's dictionary, for 'linde entre heredades' one finds: quaxochtli, tepantli, miltepantli, tlaltzontli. Tepantli and miltepantli are transparent: 'stone fence' and 'cultivated-field stone fence.' Tlaltzontli appears to be literally 'land head-of-hair.' I assume this to be a metaphor for a line of uprights outlining a piece of land. If you look down from high ground on chinampas, you get this effect. A chinamitl is created by enclosing a piece of wet land with very long poles driven down into the mucky bottom. Then mud is heaped up repeatedly inside the pole enclosure. Over time, many of the poles root and grow into tall, slim trees. So when you look down on chinampas, most are outlined with trees that look very much like a line of hair running around their edges, a sort of tonsure, if you will. From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Mon Feb 20 13:54:41 2006 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:54:41 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: On the other hand, irrigation ditches and canals almost always run between fields (not down the middle of fields) and do serve as boundary markers. I am not familiar with ditches running around houses. David ________________________________ From: Nahua language and culture discussion on behalf of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sent: Mon 2/20/2006 6:29 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is more than like a stone...a series of stones....or just one stone. Not a ditch around a house. Michael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Feb 20 16:12:02 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:12:02 -0600 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <000b01c6360d$56012c30$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: Yukitaka, The "o" of "axochtli" is short, and the "o" of "xochitl" is long. John On Feb 20, 2006, at 5:03 AM, Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: > Thank you for many suggestions. > I'd like to have just one question for John. > "Axochtli" (for ditch) in Northern Veracruz is related to flower > planting? For example, there are many flower field, or sometimes they > plant flowers around their houses? > It seems interesting to think if "xochtli" (of "axochtli") just refer > to the boundary without relating to flowers, or if it has something to > do with "flower". > > Yukitaka > takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:12 AM > Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli > > > I asked my students today if they have heard of > cua/cuauh-xochitl/xochtli/xochihtli. First they said "cuauhxochitl", > "flor de árbol", but then someone came up with the word "axochtli". It > contains the -xochtli portion given at the beginning of this > discussion, which allows us to depart from "flower". Anyway in > Northern Veracruz "axochtli" is a canal where water flows: it can > either be an irrigation ditch in a field, or the drainage ditch (only > about 4 or 5 inches wide and maybe 2 inches deep) which runs along the > side of a house. Now for speculation: both presumably run along the > side of something (a field or a house) and thus might refer to a > boundary. Now, how does "cuahuitl" fit into this? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Académica de Idiomas > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:58 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > >> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 >> Subject: Cuaxochtli >> From: Karen Dakin >> To: >> >> >> >> I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in >> Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) >> 'tree' >> plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still >> are) >> boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at >> least >> during the time they bloom. >> >> Karen Dakin >> > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Académica de Idiomas > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Feb 20 16:34:20 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:34:20 -0600 Subject: another class four verb Message-ID: A while ago someone asked about additions to the list of class four verbs. Well, here is another one. In the Huasteca, "to spit (both intransitive and transitive)" is "chahcha". In Molina, "chihcha" is a class 1 verb, "chihchac". In the Huasteca, it is class 4: "nichahchahqui", "I spat", "tichahchahqueh", "We spat", "nichahchahtoc", "I have spit". There is a less common alternate preterite form which is only used in the singular, "chahchac". This is class one, but none of the plural forms, or forms derived from the preterite stem (ti- compounds) are built on it. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 20 16:39:52 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:39:52 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <001101c63618$df4b3200$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: Yukitaka, Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your cuaxochtli problem. "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips. "nitlalxotla" is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from "xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. Molina gives: nitlaxapotla abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper pared, seto o cosa semejante nitexapotla corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get "ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element. ...and we are left to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" Saludos, Joe From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 20 17:30:53 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:30:53 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow! Quoting "R. Joe Campbell" : > Yukitaka, > > Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), > I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your > cuaxochtli problem. > > "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips. "nitlalxotla" > is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). > In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine > Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, > meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. > > "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". > > This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from > "xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. > Molina gives: > > nitlaxapotla abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper > pared, seto o cosa semejante > nitexapotla corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar > > The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get > "ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. > > > So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') > a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element. ...and we are left > to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" > > Saludos, > > Joe > From tezozomoc at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 20 17:14:15 2006 From: tezozomoc at HOTMAIL.COM (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:14:15 +0000 Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: If you have adobe homes... I remember as a child we would make ditches around the house to prevent rain run off from getting into the foundation and the walls of the house. Tezo. Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:54:41 -0500From: dfrye at UMICH.EDUSubject: Re: CuaxochtliTo: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU On the other hand, irrigation ditches and canals almost always run between fields (not down the middle of fields) and do serve as boundary markers. I am not familiar with ditches running around houses. David From: Nahua language and culture discussion on behalf of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDUSent: Mon 2/20/2006 6:29 AMTo: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDUSubject: Re: Cuaxochtli 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is morethan like a stone...a series of stones....or just one stone. Not a ditcharound a house.Michael _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 20 17:59:05 2006 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan D Amith) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:59:05 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Joe and all, In Guerrero xo:tla is a transitive verb meaning, basically, 'to create a deep line in' (for lack of a better translation). Thus it can be used to describe the action of a boat that plows through the water and leaves a large wake. It is also used for what a water snake does as it moves through the water, with its head up (partir el agua). Other uses are to the action of using spurs on the side of a donkey (scratching into its skin) to make it go faster (a losing proposition, by the way). Finally, it is somewhat jokingly used to indicate the action of signing ones name (rubric). Thus xihxo:tla 'sign it' (referring to the action of scratching the pen rapidly across the surface of the paper). So, note that Molina among the cutting into strips has "hazer rayas". The cuttinig is probably a reference to how the cuero was cut, by using a sharp, obsidian perhaps instrument and pressing down to make a deep line in the material so that it would pull apart into strips. Hence quitlalxochilia, etc. So, if cuaxochtli etc. is related to this verb, which seems a good guess, it might be related to this action of rayando and only by extension to the linderos. jda R. Joe Campbell wrote: > Yukitaka, > > Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), > I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your > cuaxochtli problem. > > "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips. "nitlalxotla" > is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). > In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine > Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, > meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. > > "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". > > This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from > "xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. > Molina gives: > > nitlaxapotla abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper > pared, seto o cosa semejante > nitexapotla corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar > > The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get > "ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. > > > So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') > a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element. ...and we are left > to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" > > Saludos, > > Joe -- Jonathan D Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College, Yale University, University of Chicago Of: 717-337-6795 H: 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College, Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Mon Feb 20 18:08:07 2006 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:08:07 EST Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: Listeros: I second the "Wow." Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 2/20/06 10:01:40 AM, mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU writes: > Wow! > > > > Quoting "R. Joe Campbell" : > > > Yukitaka, > > > >      Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), > > I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your > > cuaxochtli problem. > > > >      "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips.  "nitlalxotla" > > is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). > > In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine > > Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, > > meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. > > > >      "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". > > > > This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from > > "xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. > >      Molina gives: > > > >      nitlaxapotla   abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper > >                     pared, seto o cosa semejante > >      nitexapotla    corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar > > > >      The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get > > "ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. > > > > > >      So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') > > a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element.  ...and we are left > > to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" > > > > Saludos, > > > > Joe > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Mon Feb 20 17:40:54 2006 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria Bolivar) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 09:40:54 -0800 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Esto es todo un tema. Los modos de construcción y la arquitectura fuera del altiplano central de México. El adobe y la piedra eran la forma de construcción pero yo vi en Zacatecas muros perfectos de piedras colocadas unas sobre otras. Un amigo que fue muerto a tiros me contó que cuando era niño pasaba días, previo a levantar un granero o una pieza, buscando piedras que embonaran. Cuando se podía tallaban piedras muy pequeñas para rellenar huecos entre piedras más grandes. Yo viví un derrumbe en la casa que habité en Zacatecas. Con la lluvia y la humedad un muro grueso se venció y cayeron rocas de cantera sobre mis cosas. Un armario de madera maciza quedó convertido en astillas. Pero lo peor fue que cuando fui a intentar recuperar mis cosas, de entre los escombros, lo único que encontré fue un montón de adobe. En aquella dramática escena, debo decir que el olor a adobe húmedo me emocionó. Vivía yo en una casa antigua y eso era prueba. Pues en la actualidad no se usa ya el adobe en la ciudad y un amigo restaurador me dijo que es justo porque lo suaviza la lluvia y se cae. Qué bonita experiencia esa de recordar que hacías canales. Yo, por mi parte nunca supe nada de esto y por lo tanto mi página educativa fue aquel derrumbe monstruoso que acabó con un gran número de mis libros y muchísimos objetos preciosos. María Bolivar "We don´t see things as they are, We see things as we are." Anais Nin Dr. María Dolores Bolívar MBOLIVAR at san.rr.com http://geografiaserrantes.com/laruda/ http://geografiaserrantes.com/imaginomios/ -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Mr. Tezozomoc Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:14 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli If you have adobe homes... I remember as a child we would make ditches around the house to prevent rain run off from getting into the foundation and the walls of the house. Tezo. _____ Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:54:41 -0500 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU On the other hand, irrigation ditches and canals almost always run between fields (not down the middle of fields) and do serve as boundary markers. I am not familiar with ditches running around houses. David _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion on behalf of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sent: Mon 2/20/2006 6:29 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is more than like a stone...a series of stones....or just one stone. Not a ditch around a house. Michael _____ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 20 18:25:36 2006 From: teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM (Steffen Haurholm-Larsen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:25:36 +0000 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, Correct me if I�m wrong, but I don't think that anyone so far has suggested the [kwa] part of cuaxochtli to be derived from [kwa:iλ] "Quaitl. estremidad de algo, o la cabe�a...." (Molina 84r) Of course I am referring to Molina's first option, estremidad, meaning the edge of somthing. As for the [�oč] part, from the material given by Yukitaka it seems to be quite complex (the material, not the root) but for the sake of exhausting more options than the ones allready mentioned, I suggest Molinas(160r) "Xochitla. jardin." as a possible candidate. I realize that [tl�] is a suffix which means "place which abounds with..." but in any case it goes to show that the word for flower underwent semantic change to yield meanings asociated with land, property and planting. My best, Steffen >From: "R. Joe Campbell" >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli >Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:39:52 -0500 > >Yukitaka, > > Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), >I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your >cuaxochtli problem. > > "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips. "nitlalxotla" >is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). >In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine >Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, >meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. > > "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". > >This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from >"xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. > Molina gives: > > nitlaxapotla abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper > pared, seto o cosa semejante > nitexapotla corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar > > The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get >"ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. > > > So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') >a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element. ...and we are left >to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" > >Saludos, > >Joe _________________________________________________________________ F� de bedste s�geresultater med MSN Search: http://search.msn.dk From teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 20 18:36:47 2006 From: teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM (Steffen Haurholm-Larsen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:36:47 +0000 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Too late I realize that the list server or hotmail was not able to reproduce parts of my phonetic transscription. Well the first problem occurs with the "tl" of the absoultive suffix in cuaitl and the second in xoch. Too bad, but I hope it's legible. Steffen >From: Steffen Haurholm-Larsen >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli >Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:25:36 +0000 > >Dear all, > >Correct me if I�m wrong, but I don't think that anyone so far has suggested >the [kwa] part of cuaxochtli to be derived from [kwa:iλ] "Quaitl. >estremidad de algo, o la cabe�a...." (Molina 84r) Of course I am referring >to Molina's first option, estremidad, meaning the edge of somthing. >As for the [�oč] part, from the material given by Yukitaka it seems to >be quite complex (the material, not the root) but for the sake of >exhausting more options than the ones allready mentioned, I suggest >Molinas(160r) "Xochitla. jardin." as a possible candidate. I realize that >[tl�] is a suffix which means "place which abounds with..." but in any case >it goes to show that the word for flower underwent semantic change to yield >meanings asociated with land, property and planting. >My best, >Steffen > > >>From: "R. Joe Campbell" >>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >>Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli >>Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:39:52 -0500 >> >>Yukitaka, >> >> Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), >>I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your >>cuaxochtli problem. >> >> "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips. "nitlalxotla" >>is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). >>In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine >>Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, >>meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. >> >> "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". >> >>This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from >>"xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. >> Molina gives: >> >> nitlaxapotla abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper >> pared, seto o cosa semejante >> nitexapotla corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar >> >> The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get >>"ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. >> >> >> So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') >>a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element. ...and we are left >>to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" >> >>Saludos, >> >>Joe > >_________________________________________________________________ >F� de bedste s�geresultater med MSN Search: http://search.msn.dk _________________________________________________________________ Find dine dokumenter lettere med MSN Toolbar med Windows-pc-s�gning: http://toolbar.msn.dk From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Feb 20 19:27:32 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:27:32 -0600 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <1ed.4c3a90ff.312b5f87@aol.com> Message-ID: Here's another possibility. In the Huasteca "xotla" is "to bang into something", and "xoxotla" is "to stamp on something with your foot". If it's "cuauhxochtli", it could refer to the poles "stamped" into the ground, that Fran mentioned. John On Feb 20, 2006, at 12:08 PM, Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: > Listeros: > > I second the "Wow." > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > In a message dated 2/20/06 10:01:40 AM, mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU writes: > > >> Wow! >> >> >> >> Quoting "R. Joe Campbell" : >> >> > Yukitaka, >> > >> >      Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), >> > I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your >> > cuaxochtli problem. >> > >> >      "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips.  >> "nitlalxotla" >> > is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). >> > In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the >> Florentine >> > Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') >> occurs, >> > meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. >> > >> >      "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from >> "xotla". >> > >> > This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived >> from >> > "xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. >> >      Molina gives: >> > >> >      nitlaxapotla   abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o >> romper >> >                     pared, seto o cosa semejante >> >      nitexapotla    corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar >> > >> >      The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get >> > "ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. >> > >> > >> >      So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word >> 'obviously') >> > a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element.  ...and we are >> left >> > to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" >> > >> > Saludos, >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4962 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Mon Feb 20 19:52:45 2006 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:52:45 +0000 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > Here's another possibility. In the Huasteca "xotla" is "to bang > into something", and "xoxotla" is "to stamp on something with > your foot". ... The vowel in the syllable [-xoch]- which is the topic of all this discussion: is it long or short? If it is short, it can't have any connection with [xo_chitl] = "flower", whose [o] is long. Citlalyani. From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Mon Feb 20 19:58:38 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 14:58:38 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <20060220195245.80481.qmail@web86702.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In the various colonial and modern sources that I used for compiling ADN, I didn't find an attestation of the word that marked vowel length. Apparently Andrews didn't find any either. So to find out if it's xo: or xo, we need to see what might be found in other modern variants of Nahuatl that preserve some reflex of distinctive vowel length. Does anyone have relevant data? From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK Thu Feb 23 17:33:10 2006 From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:33:10 -0000 Subject: Tepotzoa Message-ID: Dear colleagues, As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term 'tepotzoa'. I am writing an article about the decapitation of women in sacrificial practice, and have become increasingly interested in the word. It is used in the Florentine Codex (The Ceremonies, p.105) to describe the practice by which the ixiptla of Xilonen is sacrificed (by beheading) upon the back of a priest at the festival of Uey tecuilhuitl. The text reads: "auh yn icujtlapan mjcoaia, motocaiotia tepotzoa:". And the translation by Dibble and Anderson is given as "And when there was dying upon his back, it was called "it has a back". This makes it sound as if this is an official 'term' for this form of sacrifice, and so it seems quite surprising that it does not appear in relation to similar festivals (at Ochpaniztli for example). I was wondering if anyone had come across the term in other descriptions of sacrificial ritual and also about the translation as 'it has a back'. Are there other possible interpretations which might be placed on the term? And does the sense which comes across in the term that perhaps it might be almost a unifying of the priest and victim at the moment of sacrifice seem a fair one? I would also be delighted to hear of any articles etc which deal with the subject of female decapitation (particularly in ritual, rather than image, although the latter is also welcome). I have obviously seen quite a few, but any suggestions would be very gratefully received. Best wishes and thank you for your help. Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Feb 23 20:08:21 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:08:21 -0600 Subject: Tepotzoa In-Reply-To: <012001c6389f$37e926a0$54160d54@Caroline> Message-ID: Caroline, There are three possessor suffixes, -eh, -huah, and -yoh, which are attached to nouns and mean, "owner of" that noun. The last suffix, -yoh, extends the idea of owner to "to be covered with" the noun. All three suffixes are actually the singular preterite form of ancient verbs, and for that reason, the compound constructions, such as tepotzhuah, owner of a back", can be considered preterite agentive nouns. The plural forms of each suffix, -ehqueh, -huahqueh, and -yohqueh, owners of...., are actually the plural preterite forms of the ancient verbs. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 23, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: > Dear colleagues, >   > As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping > that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term > 'tepotzoa'. I am writing an article about the decapitation of women in > sacrificial practice, and have become increasingly interested in the > word. It is used in the Florentine Codex (The Ceremonies, p.105) to > describe the practice by which the ixiptla of Xilonen is sacrificed > (by beheading) upon the back of a priest at the festival of Uey > tecuilhuitl. The text reads: "auh yn icujtlapan mjcoaia, motocaiotia > tepotzoa:". And the translation by Dibble and Anderson is given as > "And when there was dying upon his back, it was called "it has a > back". This makes it sound as if this is an official 'term' for this > form of sacrifice, and so it seems quite surprising that it does not > appear in relation to similar festivals (at Ochpaniztli for example). >   > I was wondering if anyone had come across the term in other > descriptions of sacrificial ritual and also about the translation as > 'it has a back'. Are there other possible interpretations which might > be placed on the term? And does the sense which comes across in the > term that perhaps it might be almost a unifying of the priest and > victim at the moment of sacrifice seem a fair one? >   > I would also be delighted to hear of any articles etc which deal with > the subject of female decapitation (particularly in ritual, rather > than image, although the latter is also welcome). I have obviously > seen quite a few, but any suggestions would be very gratefully > received. >   > Best wishes and thank you for your help. > Caroline > ----- > Dr. Caroline Dodds > Junior Research Fellow > Sidney Sussex College > Cambridge > CB2 3HU >   > Tel: 01223 (3)30867 > ced44 at cam.ac.uk > From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK Fri Feb 24 10:02:39 2006 From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:02:39 -0000 Subject: Tepotzoa Message-ID: John, Thanks so much for the helpful clarification and information. If you'll forgive me a rather simple question - if this is the preterite form, might one translate tepotzoa as he/she/it 'had a back' or 'was covered with a back' (rather than 'HAS a back')? Best wishes and thanks again, Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Tepotzoa Caroline, There are three possessor suffixes, -eh, -huah, and -yoh, which are attached to nouns and mean, "owner of" that noun. The last suffix, -yoh, extends the idea of owner to "to be covered with" the noun. All three suffixes are actually the singular preterite form of ancient verbs, and for that reason, the compound constructions, such as tepotzhuah, owner of a back", can be considered preterite agentive nouns. The plural forms of each suffix, -ehqueh, -huahqueh, and -yohqueh, owners of...., are actually the plural preterite forms of the ancient verbs. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 23, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping that > someone on the list might be able to help me with the term 'tepotzoa'. I > am writing an article about the decapitation of women in sacrificial > practice, and have become increasingly interested in the word. It is used > in the Florentine Codex (The Ceremonies, p.105) to describe the practice > by which the ixiptla of Xilonen is sacrificed (by beheading) upon the back > of a priest at the festival of Uey tecuilhuitl. The text reads: "auh yn > icujtlapan mjcoaia, motocaiotia tepotzoa:". And the translation by Dibble > and Anderson is given as "And when there was dying upon his back, it was > called "it has a back". This makes it sound as if this is an official > 'term' for this form of sacrifice, and so it seems quite surprising that > it does not appear in relation to similar festivals (at Ochpaniztli for > example). > > I was wondering if anyone had come across the term in other descriptions > of sacrificial ritual and also about the translation as 'it has a back'. > Are there other possible interpretations which might be placed on the > term? And does the sense which comes across in the term that perhaps it > might be almost a unifying of the priest and victim at the moment of > sacrifice seem a fair one? > > I would also be delighted to hear of any articles etc which deal with the > subject of female decapitation (particularly in ritual, rather than image, > although the latter is also welcome). I have obviously seen quite a few, > but any suggestions would be very gratefully received. > > Best wishes and thank you for your help. > Caroline > ----- > Dr. Caroline Dodds > Junior Research Fellow > Sidney Sussex College > Cambridge > CB2 3HU > > Tel: 01223 (3)30867 > ced44 at cam.ac.uk > From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Feb 24 13:01:52 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 07:01:52 -0600 Subject: Tepotzoa In-Reply-To: <006001c63929$727fd360$67820d54@Caroline> Message-ID: Caroline, No, you wouldn`t translate it in the past. Nahuatl uses three verb tenses, preterite, customary present, and future, to form what are called agentive nouns. In other words, if I have sold things (nitlanamacac), if I sell things everyday (nitlanamacani), or if I will sell things (nitlanamacaz), I am a seller. So all three of these verbal forms can at the same time be translated as the noun phrase "I am a seller or merchant". The form you are interested in, -huah, comes from an ancient verb which is no longer used as such. Therefore, when it is suffixed to a noun, the resulting construction can only be translated as an agentive noun, "the owner of....". There is an explanation of this in Lockhart's Nahuatl as Written, on pp. 53-56, and 70-71. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 24, 2006, at 4:02 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: > John, > > Thanks so much for the helpful clarification and information. If > you'll forgive me a rather simple question - if this is the preterite > form, might one translate tepotzoa as he/she/it 'had a back' or 'was > covered with a back' (rather than 'HAS a back')? > > Best wishes and thanks again, > Caroline > ----- > Dr. Caroline Dodds > Junior Research Fellow > Sidney Sussex College > Cambridge > CB2 3HU > > Tel: 01223 (3)30867 > ced44 at cam.ac.uk > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:08 PM > Subject: Re: Tepotzoa > > > Caroline, > There are three possessor suffixes, -eh, -huah, and -yoh, which are > attached to nouns and mean, "owner of" that noun. The last suffix, > -yoh, extends the idea of owner to "to be covered with" the noun. All > three suffixes are actually the singular preterite form of ancient > verbs, and for that reason, the compound constructions, such as > tepotzhuah, owner of a back", can be considered preterite agentive > nouns. The plural forms of each suffix, -ehqueh, -huahqueh, and > -yohqueh, owners of...., are actually the plural preterite forms of the > ancient verbs. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Académica de Idiomas > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > > On Feb 23, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping >> that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term >> 'tepotzoa'. I am writing an article about the decapitation of women >> in sacrificial practice, and have become increasingly interested in >> the word. It is used in the Florentine Codex (The Ceremonies, p.105) >> to describe the practice by which the ixiptla of Xilonen is >> sacrificed (by beheading) upon the back of a priest at the festival >> of Uey tecuilhuitl. The text reads: "auh yn icujtlapan mjcoaia, >> motocaiotia tepotzoa:". And the translation by Dibble and Anderson is >> given as "And when there was dying upon his back, it was called "it >> has a back". This makes it sound as if this is an official 'term' for >> this form of sacrifice, and so it seems quite surprising that it does >> not appear in relation to similar festivals (at Ochpaniztli for >> example). >> >> I was wondering if anyone had come across the term in other >> descriptions of sacrificial ritual and also about the translation as >> 'it has a back'. Are there other possible interpretations which might >> be placed on the term? And does the sense which comes across in the >> term that perhaps it might be almost a unifying of the priest and >> victim at the moment of sacrifice seem a fair one? >> >> I would also be delighted to hear of any articles etc which deal with >> the subject of female decapitation (particularly in ritual, rather >> than image, although the latter is also welcome). I have obviously >> seen quite a few, but any suggestions would be very gratefully >> received. >> >> Best wishes and thank you for your help. >> Caroline >> ----- >> Dr. Caroline Dodds >> Junior Research Fellow >> Sidney Sussex College >> Cambridge >> CB2 3HU >> >> Tel: 01223 (3)30867 >> ced44 at cam.ac.uk >> >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4704 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK Fri Feb 24 13:04:22 2006 From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:04:22 -0000 Subject: Tepotzoa Message-ID: Dear John, Of course - I am confusing the preterite tense in different languages! Thanks so much for clarifying things and for putting up with my highly inexpert attempts. Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 Mob: 07740675610 ced44 at cam.ac.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: idiez at MAC.COM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Tepotzoa Caroline, No, you wouldn`t translate it in the past. Nahuatl uses three verb tenses, preterite, customary present, and future, to form what are called agentive nouns. In other words, if I have sold things (nitlanamacac), if I sell things everyday (nitlanamacani), or if I will sell things (nitlanamacaz), I am a seller. So all three of these verbal forms can at the same time be translated as the noun phrase "I am a seller or merchant". The form you are interested in, -huah, comes from an ancient verb which is no longer used as such. Therefore, when it is suffixed to a noun, the resulting construction can only be translated as an agentive noun, "the owner of....". There is an explanation of this in Lockhart's Nahuatl as Written, on pp. 53-56, and 70-71. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 24, 2006, at 4:02 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: John, Thanks so much for the helpful clarification and information. If you'll forgive me a rather simple question - if this is the preterite form, might one translate tepotzoa as he/she/it 'had a back' or 'was covered with a back' (rather than 'HAS a back')? Best wishes and thanks again, Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Tepotzoa Caroline, There are three possessor suffixes, -eh, -huah, and -yoh, which are attached to nouns and mean, "owner of" that noun. The last suffix, -yoh, extends the idea of owner to "to be covered with" the noun. All three suffixes are actually the singular preterite form of ancient verbs, and for that reason, the compound constructions, such as tepotzhuah, owner of a back", can be considered preterite agentive nouns. The plural forms of each suffix, -ehqueh, -huahqueh, and -yohqueh, owners of...., are actually the plural preterite forms of the ancient verbs. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 23, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: Dear colleagues, As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term 'tepotzoa'. I am writing an article about the decapitation of women in sacrificial practice, and have become increasingly interested in the word. It is used in the Florentine Codex (The Ceremonies, p.105) to describe the practice by which the ixiptla of Xilonen is sacrificed (by beheading) upon the back of a priest at the festival of Uey tecuilhuitl. The text reads: "auh yn icujtlapan mjcoaia, motocaiotia tepotzoa:". And the translation by Dibble and Anderson is given as "And when there was dying upon his back, it was called "it has a back". This makes it sound as if this is an official 'term' for this form of sacrifice, and so it seems quite surprising that it does not appear in relation to similar festivals (at Ochpaniztli for example). I was wondering if anyone had come across the term in other descriptions of sacrificial ritual and also about the translation as 'it has a back'. Are there other possible interpretations which might be placed on the term? And does the sense which comes across in the term that perhaps it might be almost a unifying of the priest and victim at the moment of sacrifice seem a fair one? I would also be delighted to hear of any articles etc which deal with the subject of female decapitation (particularly in ritual, rather than image, although the latter is also welcome). I have obviously seen quite a few, but any suggestions would be very gratefully received. Best wishes and thank you for your help. Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Fri Feb 24 14:31:01 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:31:01 -0600 Subject: Tepotzoa In-Reply-To: <012001c6389f$37e926a0$54160d54@Caroline> Message-ID: At 11:33 AM 2/23/2006, you wrote: >As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping >that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term 'tepotzoa'. Would not this be a denominal verb built on the noun "tepotztli" "back" turning the noun into a class 3 verb? The translation of this into English would be difficult however, perhaps "to be a back." John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Feb 24 15:21:49 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:21:49 -0500 Subject: Tepotzoa In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060224082503.042fd9e8@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: the only thing is, -huah is commonly written -oa. Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > At 11:33 AM 2/23/2006, you wrote: > >As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping > >that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term 'tepotzoa'. > > > Would not this be a denominal verb built on the noun "tepotztli" > "back" turning the noun into a class 3 verb? The translation of > this into English would be difficult however, perhaps "to be a back." > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri Feb 24 17:10:38 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:10:38 -0500 Subject: Tepotzoa In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060224082503.042fd9e8@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, BINGO!! (qualified) I have been looking for some evidence that would help decide whether it might be -huah or -oa (intransitive verb off "tepotztli"). As Miqueltzi has pointed out, the spelling is ambiguous, so it might be either one. But my vote is for -oa (in spite of Dibble and Anderson's translation on page 105, FC, Book 1: "it has a back"). My intuition (which I haven't weighed in milligrams lately) is it more likely means "he [the priest] makes use of his back". The -oa intransitive verber is probably under-recognized in Nahuatl vocabulary. Some examples: ayacachoa he makes use of a rattle cacamamachaloa he opens and closes his mouth (he uses his jaw) camanaloa he makes use of a jest; he jokes caxoa he uses a bowl [caxitl] chichipiazoa he launches a long spit [chihchitl] like a "piyaztli" cocotzoa he runs (makes use of his "cotztli" [calf]) tlaxcaloa he makes/produces tortillas mahpiloa he points (makes use of his finger) popoa he sweeps (uses a popotl) [No! not "sips"!] quiquizoa he plays a trumpet [quiquiztli] tamaloa he makes/produces tamales teponazoa he plays a teponaztli (log drum) tlacualoa he makes/produces food [tlacualli] Saludos, Joe p.s. We are lucky that through some phonological process or scribal error, it didn't get written "tepozoa" or we'd be trying to stretch the semantics of those priests' actions to fit 'iron'. }8-) On Fri, 24 Feb 2006, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > Would not this be a denominal verb built on the noun "tepotztli" "back" > turning the noun into a class 3 verb? The translation of this into English > would be difficult however, perhaps "to be a back." > From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Fri Feb 24 17:20:30 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:20:30 -0500 Subject: Tepotzoa Message-ID: To expand on what John offered, there is a noun derived from tepotz-tli 'back, shoulders,' namely tepotzoh "hunchback" (< tepotz+yoh). I suppose "tepotzoa" could stand for tepotzoh+huah 'he/she/it is the possessor of a hunched back.' Fran Karttunen From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK Fri Feb 24 17:40:16 2006 From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:40:16 -0000 Subject: Tepotzoa Message-ID: Thank so much for all your help and suggestions! I had wondered about the translation which Fran kindly suggested of tepotzoa as 'he/she/it as 'possessor of a hunched back', something which would certainly suggest an interesting perspective on the idea of a priest bending forwards so that the female victim could be laid upon his back for decapitation if, as Sahagun suggests, it is a term for the type of sacrifice. He would certainly be hunched in that position, but if it is a term for the form of sacrifice, it suggests perhaps something more about the importance of the pose. Joe's suggestion that it might be 'he makes use of his back' also seems very logical. But it doesn't quite answer the question of why Sahagun would say that this form of sacrifice is 'called' tepotzoa (which seems to imply a formal term). Perhaps it really is as simple as a description, however. Either way, it is clear that the idea of the tepotzoa sacrifice (which is uniquely associated with female decapitation) is also closely associated with the sacrifice on the priest's back. I wonder why the decapitation takes place in this unusual way as opposed to simply on the stone...... Thanks again. Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk From bdj at UCHICAGO.EDU Sat Feb 25 03:52:18 2006 From: bdj at UCHICAGO.EDU (Benjamin Johnson) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 21:52:18 -0600 Subject: quimochihuililizque In-Reply-To: <5274517c33fe12c2a0d461c3e9acc370@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Hello! I am a second year graduate student at the University of Chicago with my first post to this list. Before asking my question, I wanted to praise the list generally for its interested and collaborative tone, which encourages the small type of question I am about to ask in addition to bigger and more involved discussions such as the one over "Tepotzoa." Anyway, mine is a very short question: In one document I'm working with I encounter the word "quimochihuililizque" (roughly: they will build it, reverential) which seems to have one applicative marker too many. Of course, the extra -li could have been nothing more than an error of recopying, but I wanted to confirm that it is a departure from some sort of "canonical" form. Thank you. Ben Johnson UChicago From bdj at UCHICAGO.EDU Sat Feb 25 04:00:11 2006 From: bdj at UCHICAGO.EDU (Benjamin Johnson) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:00:11 -0600 Subject: please ignore the last post In-Reply-To: <8d3e7dc7ae22b10b06f39b937ff53d31@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Please forget the last post. I don't know why I forgot the standard form of "chihuililia." Sorry for the confusion. From micc2 at COX.NET Mon Feb 27 19:00:44 2006 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:00:44 -0800 Subject: Jonathan D Amith makes it into the Wall Street Journal... Message-ID: Congratulations to Jonathan on a great story about his invaluable research. The story appeared in the Friday Feb. 24, 2006 issue :-) mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon Feb 6 21:09:45 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:09:45 -0600 Subject: Article in L A Times Message-ID: Yesterday there was an interesting article in the L A Times about a fellow teaching Nahuatl: http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-me-nahuatl5feb05,0,3957607.story?coll=la-news-learning John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Tue Feb 7 00:03:06 2006 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:03:06 EST Subject: Article in L A Times Message-ID: Fritz: That might be the same one. In any case, I will send you the hard copy in a few minutes. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 2/6/06 1:10:45 PM, schwallr at morris.umn.edu writes: > Yesterday there was an interesting article in the L A Times about a > fellow teaching Nahuatl: > > http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-me-nahuatl5feb05,0,3957607.story?col > l=la-news-learning > > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN? 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arnibionic at YAHOO.DE Tue Feb 7 16:12:21 2006 From: arnibionic at YAHOO.DE (=?iso-8859-1?q?Arnd=20S=F6lling?=) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 17:12:21 +0100 Subject: Pronouns Message-ID: Listeros, I want to thank everybody that helped me out on the nahuatl pronouns. It is very nice to be able to see different accesses/explanations of one phenomena, lexical ones, morphological ones...I have checked Carochi for the pronouns and came to see that he mentiones that forms of ne? cannot stand alone as an answer for a question...so i thought that maybe ne? became something like a second position clitic with less semantic qualities like the full form with -hua(tl) (that would fit into the typological linguistic theories tought at my university)...just an idea... Greetings, Arnd S?lling --------------------------------- Telefonieren Sie ohne weitere Kosten mit Ihren Freunden von PC zu PC! Jetzt Yahoo! Messenger installieren! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 9 03:15:36 2006 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Amith) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 22:15:36 -0500 Subject: Pronouns In-Reply-To: <20060207161221.64402.qmail@web25213.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Listeros, The situation in some Balsas villages is similar to that reported by Carochi. Some, but not all, villages have long and short forms: Ameyaltepec (younger speakers tend more toward -owa, older ones to -ewa endings). There are no short forms here (or, if they are, they are very rare). Ameyaltepec loses {h} word internally: newa (or nowa) tewa (or towa) yewa (or yowa) tewameh (or towameh) nanwameh yewameh (or yowameh) San Miguel Tecuiciapan (no short forms documented to date, though research is incomplete) nehwa tehwa yehwa tehwameh nenwameh yehwameh Oapan (here there are short forms, as indicated; {h} word internally creates a high pitch-accent, leading to two high pitches on words such as n?w? and t?:m?h) n?w? (short form no) t?w? (short form to) y?w? (short form yo) t?:m?h (no short form) n?:m?h (no short form) y?:m?h (no short form) In all variants the long form is used to introduce new information in response to a question. It is not used with old information. Thus: ?A:kino:n kitekis? Who will cut it? Can have the following responses: N?w?! N?wa nihtekis. Also possible No nihtekis. However, in response to ?Tli:no:n tihchi:was? What will you do? Nihtekis. I will cut it. Where the verbal action is the new information, but not, ? N?wa nihtekis. ? No nihtekis. This is because the emphatic pronoun is used with new information and in the previous the subject is known whereas the predicate is not. Re: the short forms. These must always be followed by a predicate (verbal or otherwise) Thus no no: ni?:s I will also go. to no: ti?:s You will also go. etc. Note the following: No nis?wawah, niman t?w?. I am married, and you? The second pronoun cannot be a short form. jda Quoting Arnd S?lling : > Listeros, > I want to thank everybody that helped me out on the nahuatl > pronouns. It is very nice to be able to see different > accesses/explanations of one phenomena, lexical ones, morphological > ones...I have checked Carochi for the pronouns and came to see that > he mentiones that forms of ne? cannot stand alone as an answer for a > question...so i thought that maybe ne? became something like a second > position clitic with less semantic qualities like the full form with > -hua(tl) (that would fit into the typological linguistic theories > tought at my university)...just an idea... > Greetings, > Arnd S?lling > > > --------------------------------- > Telefonieren Sie ohne weitere Kosten mit Ihren Freunden von PC zu PC! > Jetzt Yahoo! Messenger installieren! -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Thu Feb 9 17:37:16 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:37:16 -0600 Subject: Friends of Uto-Aztecan Languages Conference Message-ID: >Full Title: Friends of Uto-Aztecan Languages Conference >Short Title: FUAC > >Date: 23-Aug-2006 - 27-Aug-2006 >Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA >Contact Person: Mauricio Mixco >Meeting Email: m.mixco at utah.edu > >Linguistic Field(s): General Linguistics > >Language Family(ies): Uto-Aztecan > >Call Deadline: 15-Mar-2006 > >Meeting Description: > >The FRIENDS OF UTO-AZTECAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE will now be held August >23-27, 2006, on the University of Utah campus in Salt Lake City, Utah. > >FRIENDS OF UTO-AZTECAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE > >Call for Papers >Dates: The FRIENDS OF UTO-AZTECAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE (previously >announced for June 29-July 1) will now be held August 23-27, 2006, on the >University of Utah campus in Salt Lake City, Utah. > >Call for papers: We invite papers dealing with any aspect of Uto-Aztecan >languages and cultures. Native American participants are especially invited. >Papers are 20 minutes each in length, with an additional 10 minutes for >discussion. > >Deadline: ABSTRACTS MUST BE RECEIVED by March 15, 2006. The program >committee will attempt to provide notification of acceptance by March 30 (by >e-mail). > >Please note: >Bilingual Session presentations can be in Spanish or English. Abstracts in >Spanish (or English) can be submitted for consideration for this session. > >Abstract submission guidelines: > - The abstract should be no more than one page in length; shorter is >acceptable. It should include the title of the paper and the name (or >names) of the author/authors, together with the author's/authors' >affiliation. (If the paper is accepted, this abstract will be reproduced in >conference materials to be distributed to other participants.) > >- Abstracts should be submitted by e-mail. Submissions should be in >Microsoft Word document, Rich Text Format (RTF), or Portable Document Format >(PDF). If possible, avoid special fonts (or arrange with the organizers so >they can be read). > >- Please include with your abstract appropriate contact details, which >include: contact author's name, e-mail address for the period of time from >January to June 2006, and a telephone contact number. > >- Only one abstract per person may be submitted. (The only exception may be >in instances where at least one of the papers has multiple authors.) > >- Address: Please send abstracts to: lyle.campbell at linguistics.utah.edu or >m.mixco at utah.edu (by March 15, 2006). > >Accommodations: University Guest House, the official conference hotel - 100 >yards from CAIL (Center for American Indian Languages) and 10 minutes from >meeting venue. To book accommodations, please contact the Guest House >directly (mention FUAC for the conference booking): > >University Guest House University of Utah >110 South Fort Douglas Blvd. >Salt Lake City, Utah 84113-5036 >Toll free: 1-888-416-4075 (or 801-587-1000), Fax 801-587-1001 >Website www.guesthouse.utah.edu > (Please make reservations early, since rooms will be held for the >conference only until early July.) > >Sponsors: The sponsors for this conference will include: (1) Center for >American Indian Languages (CAIL), (2) Office of the Vice-President for >Diversity, (3) Department of Linguistics, (4) College of Humanities, and (5) >the O.C. Tanner Humanities Center, all of the University of Utah. > >Additional information: for further information contact: Mauricio J. Mixco >at m.mixco at utah.edu or Lyle Campbell (not after April) at >lyle.campbell at linguistics.utah.edu. If you need information not easily >arranged via e-mail, please call: Tel. 801-587-0720 or 801-581-3441 during >business hours (Mountain Standard Time), or Fax 801-585-7351. > > >TALLER DE LOS AMIGOS DE LAS LENGUAS YUTO-AZTECAS > >Se Solicitan Ponencias >Fechas: El Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas yuto-aztecas (previamente >anunciado para el 29 de junio - 1 de julio) ahora se realizar? del 23 al 27 >de agosto, 2006, en la Universidad de Utah en Salt Lake City, Utah. > >Solicitud de Ponencias: Solicitamos ponencias sobre cualquier aspecto de >las lenguas o culturas yuto-aztecas. Las ponencias ser?n de 20 minutos, con >10 minutos para preguntas y comentarios. > >Plazo: LOS RES?MENES DEBEN LLEGAR para el 15 de marzo, 2006. El comit? del >programa har? todo lo posible para notificarles de su inclusi?n para fines >de marzo (por correo electr?nico). > >Notable: >Las sesiones ser?n biling?es: Se podr? emplear cualquiera de las dos >lenguas en las ponencias. Los res?menes podr?n ser en espa?ol (o en >ingl?s). > >Pautas para los res?menes: > - El resumen no exceder? una cuartilla. Deber? incluir el t?tulo de la >ponencia y el nombre del autor (o autores), junto con su filiaci?n >profesional. (Si la ponencia es aceptada, se reproducir? su resumen con los >materiales distribuidos a los dem?s part?cipes.) > >- Los res?menes se env?an por correo electr?nico. Deber? de ser un >documento Microsoft Word, Rich Text Format (RTF), o Portable Document Format >(PDF). Si le es posible, evite fuentes especiales (o comun?quese con los >organizadores para poder leerlos). > >- Favor de incluir con su resumen detalles de contacto apropriados, como >son: el nombre del autor, cuenta electr?nica, para el per?odo entre enero y >junio del 2006, junto con un n?mero de tel?fono. > >- Se aceptar? un solo resumen por part?cipe. (la ?nica excepci?n podr? ser >cuando por lo menos una de las ponencias tenga m?s de un autor.) > >- Direcci?n: Favor de enviar su resumen a: >lyle.campbell at linguistics.utah.edu o a m.mixco at utah.edu (para el 15 de marzo >del 2006). > >Hospedaje: University Guest House (casa de hu?spedes de la universidad), es >el hotel oficial para congresos - a 100 metros de CAIL (Center for American >Indian Languages) y a diez minutos de local de las sesiones. Para pedir su >hospedaje, favor de comunicarse con la Guest House directamente (haga el >favor de mencionar el taller FUAC para obtener los precios m?dicos del >taller): > >University Guest House University of Utah >110 South Fort Douglas Blvd. >Salt Lake City, Utah 84113-5036 >Gratuito: 1-888-416-4075 (or 801-587-1000), Fax 801-587-1001 >Website www.guesthouse.utah.edu > (Favor de reservar su hospedaje con anticipaci?n, ya que se mantienen >apartadas las habitaciones solamente hasta principios de julio.) > >Patrocinadores: Los patrocinadores del taller son: (1) Center for American >Indian Languages (CAIL), (2) Office of the Vice-President for Diversity, (3) >Department of Linguistics, (4) College of Humanities, and (5) the O.C. >Tanner Humanities Center, todos de la Universidad de Utah. > >Informaci?n adicional: Para m?s informaci?n, favor de comunicarse con: con >Mauricio J. Mixco (m.mixco at utah.edu) o (s?lo hasta abril) Lyle Campbell >(lyle.campbell at linguistics.utah.edu). Si necesita informaci?n dificil de >comunicar por correo electr?nico, favor de llamar al: Tel. 801-587-0720 or >801-581-3441 durante las horas de trabajo (Mountain Standard Time/hora de la >monta?a), o marque el Fax 801-585-7351. > From takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP Thu Feb 16 03:00:47 2006 From: takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:00:47 +0900 Subject: cuaxochtli Message-ID: Hello. Could anyone help me with the etimology of "cuaxochtli"(land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do with "cuaitl" and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm reading, I've also seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead of "cuaxochtli". Thanks in advance for your help. Yukitaka Inoue Language Education Center, Ritsumeikan University (Kyoto, Japan) takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu Feb 16 05:57:57 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:57:57 -0500 Subject: cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <000901c632a5$2f6eeff0$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: Yukitaka, People who are wiser than I am believe that any Nahuatl "possible stem" that has more than one syllable is probably made up of more than one morpheme, but if "cuaxochtli" is really a noun-noun compound, I am cautious enough to want to see some evidence of the semantic relationship between "head" and "flower" on the one hand and "land border" on the other. I don't think the case is very strong for considering "cuaxochtli" to be a compound, but I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise. |8-) I include below some samples of it.... Saludos, Joe 55m, 71m1, and 71m2 refer to the three Molina dictionaries of the 16th dictionary. "b." numbers refer to books of the Florentine Codex. *cuaxochtli *** altepecuaxochtli. sitio por cerco del pueblo. . 55m-18 altepecuaxochquetza =n. sitio poner assi. . 55m-18 altepecuaxochtli. sitio por cerco del pueblo. . 71m1-19 altepecuaxochquetza =n. sitio poner assi. . 71m1-19 altepecuaxochquetza =n=onaltepecuaxochquetz. amojonar los terminos del pueblo. . 71m2-1 altepecuaxochtli. terminos o mojones de pueblo o ciudad. . 71m2-1 cuacuaxochquetza , tla-. he sets separate boundaries. . b.10 f.3 cuacuaxochtiloco , ne-. there is establishment of boundaries. . b.10 f.12 cuaxochco , te-. someone's land limit. . b.10 f.12 cuaxochnamiqui =nite. alindar vna eredad con otra. . 55m-00 cuaxochnamiqui =te. vezino en^terminos. . 55m-19 cuaxochnamiquiliztli =te. vezindad assi. . 55m-19 cuaxochnamiqui =nite. alindar vna eredad con otra. . 71m1-2 cuaxochnamiqui =te. vezino en terminos. . 71m1-20 cuaxochnamiquiliztli =te. vezindad assi. . 71m1-20 cuaxochnamiqui =nite=onitecuaxochnamic. alindar heredad conla de otro. . 71m2-15 cuaxochnamiqui =tito=otitocuaxochnamicque. alindar heredad conla de otro. . 71m2-15 cuaxochnamiqui =te. el que tiene su heredad junto ala de otro. . 71m2-18 cuaxochnamiqui , mo-. . . b.10 f.12 cuaxochpanahuiltia =nite. echar del termino; echar de^termino. . 55m-7 cuaxochquechilia =nite. deslindar heredades. . 71m1-7 cuaxochquetza =ni. amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades; deslindar heredades; amojonar terminos. . 55m-00 cuaxochquetza , tla-. he sets boundaries. . b.10 f.3 cuaxochquetza =ni=onicuaxochquetz. amojonar terminos, o lindes. . 71m2-15 cuaxochquetzqui =tla. amojonador de heredades. . 71m2-23 cuaxochquetztli =tla. deslindada heredad; heredad amojonada. . 55m-5 cuaxochtia =nite. amojonar terminos. . 71m1-2 cuaxochtia =nite=onitecuaxochti. amojonar terminos, o lindes. . 71m2-15 cuaxochtli. linde entre eredades; linde entre heredades; mojon o linde de eredad; mojon o linde de heredad; termino; o linde de tierras; o de ciudades. . 55m-12 milcuaxoch. large lizard. . b.10 f.11 milcuaxochtli. long-tailed lizard. . b.2 f.10 tetl cuaxochmachiyotl. mojon piedra. . 55m-14 Quoting Yukitaka Inoue Okubo : > Hello. Could anyone help me with the etimology of "cuaxochtli"(land border, > lindero)? > Does it have something to do with "cuaitl" and/or "xochitl"? In some > colonial documents I'm reading, I've also seen the form "cuaxochitli" > instead of "cuaxochtli". From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Feb 16 09:32:35 2006 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:32:35 +0000 Subject: cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <000901c632a5$2f6eeff0$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: --- Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: > Hello. Could anyone help me with the etymology of `cuaxochtli' > (land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do > with "cuaitl" and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm > reading, I've also seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead ... Uhh. `It-is-a-head-flower'. Was there a custom somewhere, of planting flowering bushes to mark land borders? Citlalyani From takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP Thu Feb 16 17:41:19 2006 From: takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 02:41:19 +0900 Subject: cuaxochtli Message-ID: Anthony and Joe: Thank you for your comments. The problem is that I don't understand exactly what cuaxochtli means. That is, if it is a some kind of clear border"line",or places with certain extention of surface(for example, a hill or mountain). This question made me to start thinking of the possibility of a compound. Any way, I will check if "head" and "flower" could have semantic relation, or not, with land border (or land itself). Yukitaka Inoue O. > --- Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: >> Hello. Could anyone help me with the etymology of `cuaxochtli' >> (land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do >> with "cuaitl" and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm >> reading, I've also seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead ... > > Uhh. `It-is-a-head-flower'. Was there a custom somewhere, of planting > flowering bushes to mark land borders? > > Citlalyani > > From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Thu Feb 16 17:59:05 2006 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:59:05 -0500 Subject: cuaxochtli Message-ID: Cactus and agaves (especially agaves -- magueyes) are planted to mark the borders between fields all over central Mexico. I don't know whether the flowers of nopales, organos, and/or magueyes are called "xochitl" or whether this could have anything to do with "cuaxochitli". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Frye Latin American & Caribbean Studies - LACS International Institute, University of Michigan 2607 School of Social Work Bldg Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106 tel (734) 647 0844 - fax (734) 615-8880 -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:33 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: cuaxochtli --- Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: > Hello. Could anyone help me with the etymology of `cuaxochtli' > (land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do with "cuaitl" > and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm reading, I've also > seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead ... Uhh. `It-is-a-head-flower'. Was there a custom somewhere, of planting flowering bushes to mark land borders? Citlalyani From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Feb 16 18:20:19 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:20:19 -0500 Subject: cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <001b01c63320$31e88590$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: If you come up with a semantic relation of "head-flower" or even "flower-head" for "borderline," then I'll love to hear about it. Following Joe's lead, it's obvious from experience that, while some people may hope that any noun with apparently two or more parts such as cuaxochitl seems like it can be parsed, that just ain't the case. For example, in Miami-Illinois, a native North American language, there are many nice, really *long* words that just can't be chopped up. /kiteehpikwanwa/, the term for the species of carp known in English as the buffalo fish comes to mind. Now, while a lot of terms can be cut up, such as /myaalameekwa/ 'channel catfish' (/myaal- 'ugly, gaunt' and /-(a)meekw-/ 'fish', /kiteepihkwanw-/ is just its own morpheme, semantically unanalyzable. cuaxoch- *could be* homophonous with cua-xoch- 'head-flower', but it may not be. Vowel length is always a question, too. Michael Quoting Yukitaka Inoue Okubo : > Anthony and Joe: > > Thank you for your comments. > The problem is that I don't understand exactly what cuaxochtli means. That > is, if it is a some kind of clear border"line",or places with certain > extention of surface(for example, a hill or mountain). This question made me > > to start thinking of the possibility of a compound. > Any way, I will check if "head" and "flower" could have semantic relation, > or not, with land border (or land itself). > > Yukitaka Inoue O. > > > > > > --- Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: > >> Hello. Could anyone help me with the etymology of `cuaxochtli' > >> (land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do > >> with "cuaitl" and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm > >> reading, I've also seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead ... > > > > Uhh. `It-is-a-head-flower'. Was there a custom somewhere, of planting > > flowering bushes to mark land borders? > > > > Citlalyani > > > > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Feb 16 18:27:32 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:27:32 -0500 Subject: cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, this shows some promise. Michael Quoting "Frye, David" : > Cactus and agaves (especially agaves -- magueyes) are planted to mark > the borders between fields all over central Mexico. I don't know whether > the flowers of nopales, organos, and/or magueyes are called "xochitl" or > whether this could have anything to do with "cuaxochitli". > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > David Frye > Latin American & Caribbean Studies - LACS > International Institute, University of Michigan > 2607 School of Social Work Bldg > Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106 > tel (734) 647 0844 - fax (734) 615-8880 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion > [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:33 AM > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: cuaxochtli > > --- Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: > > Hello. Could anyone help me with the etymology of `cuaxochtli' > > (land border, lindero)? Does it have something to do with "cuaitl" > > and/or "xochitl"? In some colonial documents I'm reading, I've also > > seen the form "cuaxochitli" instead ... > > Uhh. `It-is-a-head-flower'. Was there a custom somewhere, of planting > flowering bushes to mark land borders? > > Citlalyani > From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Fri Feb 17 20:58:07 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:58:07 -0600 Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 Subject: Cuaxochtli From: Karen Dakin To: I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) 'tree' plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still are) boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at least during the time they bloom. Karen Dakin From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Feb 17 22:12:55 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:12:55 -0600 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060217145707.044b06c8@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: I asked my students today if they have heard of cua/cuauh-xochitl/xochtli/xochihtli. First they said "cuauhxochitl", "flor de ?rbol", but then someone came up with the word "axochtli". It contains the -xochtli portion given at the beginning of this discussion, which allows us to depart from "flower". Anyway in Northern Veracruz "axochtli" is a canal where water flows: it can either be an irrigation ditch in a field, or the drainage ditch (only about 4 or 5 inches wide and maybe 2 inches deep) which runs along the side of a house. Now for speculation: both presumably run along the side of something (a field or a house) and thus might refer to a boundary. Now, how does "cuahuitl" fit into this? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:58 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 > Subject: Cuaxochtli > From: Karen Dakin > To: > > > > I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in > Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) > 'tree' > plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still > are) > boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at > least > during the time they bloom. > > Karen Dakin > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From avanthooft at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 18 21:09:47 2006 From: avanthooft at YAHOO.COM (Anuschka) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 15:09:47 -0600 Subject: question about FUAC Message-ID: Last week I received from the Nahuatl/list a call for papers for the Friends of Uto-Aztecan Languages Conference to be held in August. I wonder whether the congress is for linguists only or whether anthropologists and people from other social sciencies or humanities will also be attending. Is the FUAC the place to be when I'm doing research on Huastecan Nahuatl oral tradition and would like to participate and exchange ideas with specialists who work on the relation between language and culture, without being a specialist in linguistics? Anuschka van 't Hooft Universidad Autonoma de San Luis Potosi __________________________________________________ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis! Reg?strate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ From takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP Mon Feb 20 11:03:52 2006 From: takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:03:52 +0900 Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: Thank you for many suggestions. I'd like to have just one question for John. "Axochtli" (for ditch) in Northern Veracruz is related to flower planting? For example, there are many flower field, or sometimes they plant flowers around their houses? It seems interesting to think if "xochtli" (of "axochtli") just refer to the boundary without relating to flowers, or if it has something to do with "flower". Yukitaka takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:12 AM Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli I asked my students today if they have heard of cua/cuauh-xochitl/xochtli/xochihtli. First they said "cuauhxochitl", "flor de ?rbol", but then someone came up with the word "axochtli". It contains the -xochtli portion given at the beginning of this discussion, which allows us to depart from "flower". Anyway in Northern Veracruz "axochtli" is a canal where water flows: it can either be an irrigation ditch in a field, or the drainage ditch (only about 4 or 5 inches wide and maybe 2 inches deep) which runs along the side of a house. Now for speculation: both presumably run along the side of something (a field or a house) and thus might refer to a boundary. Now, how does "cuahuitl" fit into this? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:58 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 > Subject: Cuaxochtli > From: Karen Dakin > To: > > > > I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in > Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) > 'tree' > plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still are) > boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at least > during the time they bloom. > > Karen Dakin > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 20 11:29:13 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 06:29:13 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <000b01c6360d$56012c30$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: I'd like to propose that we turn around 180 degrees again and consider cuaxoch- a **morpheme** meaning "boundary marker". 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is more than like a stone...a series of stones....or just one stone. Not a ditch around a house. 2) the cuauhuitl + xoch- suggestion can only be off the mark, given that the chroniclers were very careful about writing "u". In other words, we do not have anywhere "cuauhxochtli"...and we should have, if cuahuitl were the initial morpheme of this term. 3) If we cut this cuaxochtli into two parts, where one is cuaitl 'head', what is *xochtli? There is no *xochtli in the Florentine or Molina. 4) A two-syllable morpheme is certainly not uncommon for Nahuatl. Michael Quoting Yukitaka Inoue Okubo : > Thank you for many suggestions. > I'd like to have just one question for John. > "Axochtli" (for ditch) in Northern Veracruz is related to flower planting? > For example, there are many flower field, or sometimes they plant flowers > around their houses? > It seems interesting to think if "xochtli" (of "axochtli") just refer to the > > boundary without relating to flowers, or if it has something to do with > "flower". > > Yukitaka > takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:12 AM > Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli > > > I asked my students today if they have heard of > cua/cuauh-xochitl/xochtli/xochihtli. First they said "cuauhxochitl", > "flor de ?rbol", but then someone came up with the word "axochtli". It > contains the -xochtli portion given at the beginning of this > discussion, which allows us to depart from "flower". Anyway in > Northern Veracruz "axochtli" is a canal where water flows: it can > either be an irrigation ditch in a field, or the drainage ditch (only > about 4 or 5 inches wide and maybe 2 inches deep) which runs along the > side of a house. Now for speculation: both presumably run along the > side of something (a field or a house) and thus might refer to a > boundary. Now, how does "cuahuitl" fit into this? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M?xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:58 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 > > Subject: Cuaxochtli > > From: Karen Dakin > > To: > > > > > > > > I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in > > Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) > > 'tree' > > plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still are) > > boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at least > > during the time they bloom. > > > > Karen Dakin > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M?xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 20 11:33:23 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 06:33:23 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <1140434953.43f9a809d49aa@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Quoting mmccaffe at indiana.edu: > I'd like to propose that we turn around 180 degrees again and consider > cuaxoch- > a **morpheme** meaning "boundary marker". > > 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is more > > than like a stone... That should've read "more than likely something like a stone". From takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP Mon Feb 20 12:26:27 2006 From: takaio at PO.AIANET.NE.JP (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:26:27 +0900 Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: Michael, I agree with you in many points. I started with "cuaxochtli", form which appears in Molina, but the colonial documents I've been reading has many variations. Just some examples: quaxochitl, quaxochitli, quacxotli, quachxotli, quacxochi These documents generally have many orthografic problems. On the other hand, the meaning of "boundery marker (at least of stone)" does not seem to me very true, because they use the Spanish word "mojon" to refer to "stone-boundary markers". Yukitaka ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli > I'd like to propose that we turn around 180 degrees again and consider > cuaxoch- > a **morpheme** meaning "boundary marker". > > 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is > more > than like a stone...a series of stones....or just one stone. Not a ditch > around a house. > > 2) the cuauhuitl + xoch- suggestion can only be off the mark, given that > the > chroniclers were very careful about writing "u". In other words, we do not > have anywhere "cuauhxochtli"...and we should have, if cuahuitl were the > initial morpheme of this term. > > 3) If we cut this cuaxochtli into two parts, where one is cuaitl 'head', > what > is *xochtli? There is no *xochtli in the Florentine or Molina. > > 4) A two-syllable morpheme is certainly not uncommon for Nahuatl. > > Michael > > > Quoting Yukitaka Inoue Okubo : > >> Thank you for many suggestions. >> I'd like to have just one question for John. >> "Axochtli" (for ditch) in Northern Veracruz is related to flower >> planting? >> For example, there are many flower field, or sometimes they plant flowers >> around their houses? >> It seems interesting to think if "xochtli" (of "axochtli") just refer to >> the >> >> boundary without relating to flowers, or if it has something to do with >> "flower". >> >> Yukitaka >> takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:12 AM >> Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli >> >> >> I asked my students today if they have heard of >> cua/cuauh-xochitl/xochtli/xochihtli. First they said "cuauhxochitl", >> "flor de ?rbol", but then someone came up with the word "axochtli". It >> contains the -xochtli portion given at the beginning of this >> discussion, which allows us to depart from "flower". Anyway in >> Northern Veracruz "axochtli" is a canal where water flows: it can >> either be an irrigation ditch in a field, or the drainage ditch (only >> about 4 or 5 inches wide and maybe 2 inches deep) which runs along the >> side of a house. Now for speculation: both presumably run along the >> side of something (a field or a house) and thus might refer to a >> boundary. Now, how does "cuahuitl" fit into this? >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >> Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >> Director >> Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. >> Tacuba 152, int. 47 >> Centro Hist?rico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> M?xico >> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 >> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 >> idiez at mac.com >> www.idiez.org.mx >> >> On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:58 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: >> >> > Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 >> > Subject: Cuaxochtli >> > From: Karen Dakin >> > To: >> > >> > >> > >> > I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in >> > Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) >> > 'tree' >> > plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still >> > are) >> > boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at >> > least >> > during the time they bloom. >> > >> > Karen Dakin >> > >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >> Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >> Director >> Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. >> Tacuba 152, int. 47 >> Centro Hist?rico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> M?xico >> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 >> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 >> idiez at mac.com >> www.idiez.org.mx >> > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 20 12:35:29 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 07:35:29 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <001101c63618$df4b3200$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: Quoting Yukitaka Inoue Okubo : > Michael, > > I agree with you in many points. > I started with "cuaxochtli", form which appears in Molina, but the colonial > documents I've been reading has many variations. Just some examples: > quaxochitl, quaxochitli, quacxotli, quachxotli, quacxochi > These documents generally have many orthografic problems. This is true. But please note again that none of these has a "u", in reference to the unusual *cuauhxoch- suggestion. There is a tremendous amount of variation in the items that you note above. The ones with "c" and "ch" are certainly curious. Michael From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Mon Feb 20 13:32:44 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:32:44 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <1140438929.43f9b7912700e@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: > There is a tremendous amount of variation in the items that you note > above. > The ones with "c" and "ch" are certainly curious. > And suggest that the "cua" of "cuaxochtli" may stand for a syllable closed by a consonant, which would most likely be the "saltillo" which is in some regional dialects pronounced as [h], in others as glottal stop, and in yet others as a gemination of whatever the following consonant is. It is not entirely unknown for the saltillo to appear in colonial-peiod texts as "c" which has led Lockhart to posit historically underlying [k] for saltillo in at least some contexts. A partial assimilation of cuacxochtli could yield cuachxochtli. Full assimilation of chx to geminate -xx- is attested. There is a lot of colonial-period, probably regional, variation among xochitl and xochtli for 'flower.' Xochitli is problematical, because that implies xochi+saltillo preceding the -tli form of the absolutive suffix. There IS xochih- in xochihcualli 'fruit' (nowadays specifically 'banana'). For what it is worth, there are almost certainly unrelated homophones xochiyotl 'essence of flowers' and 'fat, suet.' The first is derived from xochi-tl by the obvious process of adding -yo-tl. The other is probably related to chiyan-tli 'oilseed' in a very non-obvious way. If one looks into the Spanish-to-Nahuatl side of Molina's dictionary, for 'linde entre heredades' one finds: quaxochtli, tepantli, miltepantli, tlaltzontli. Tepantli and miltepantli are transparent: 'stone fence' and 'cultivated-field stone fence.' Tlaltzontli appears to be literally 'land head-of-hair.' I assume this to be a metaphor for a line of uprights outlining a piece of land. If you look down from high ground on chinampas, you get this effect. A chinamitl is created by enclosing a piece of wet land with very long poles driven down into the mucky bottom. Then mud is heaped up repeatedly inside the pole enclosure. Over time, many of the poles root and grow into tall, slim trees. So when you look down on chinampas, most are outlined with trees that look very much like a line of hair running around their edges, a sort of tonsure, if you will. From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Mon Feb 20 13:54:41 2006 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:54:41 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: On the other hand, irrigation ditches and canals almost always run between fields (not down the middle of fields) and do serve as boundary markers. I am not familiar with ditches running around houses. David ________________________________ From: Nahua language and culture discussion on behalf of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sent: Mon 2/20/2006 6:29 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is more than like a stone...a series of stones....or just one stone. Not a ditch around a house. Michael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Feb 20 16:12:02 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:12:02 -0600 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <000b01c6360d$56012c30$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: Yukitaka, The "o" of "axochtli" is short, and the "o" of "xochitl" is long. John On Feb 20, 2006, at 5:03 AM, Yukitaka Inoue Okubo wrote: > Thank you for many suggestions. > I'd like to have just one question for John. > "Axochtli" (for ditch) in Northern Veracruz is related to flower > planting? For example, there are many flower field, or sometimes they > plant flowers around their houses? > It seems interesting to think if "xochtli" (of "axochtli") just refer > to the boundary without relating to flowers, or if it has something to > do with "flower". > > Yukitaka > takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:12 AM > Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli > > > I asked my students today if they have heard of > cua/cuauh-xochitl/xochtli/xochihtli. First they said "cuauhxochitl", > "flor de ?rbol", but then someone came up with the word "axochtli". It > contains the -xochtli portion given at the beginning of this > discussion, which allows us to depart from "flower". Anyway in > Northern Veracruz "axochtli" is a canal where water flows: it can > either be an irrigation ditch in a field, or the drainage ditch (only > about 4 or 5 inches wide and maybe 2 inches deep) which runs along the > side of a house. Now for speculation: both presumably run along the > side of something (a field or a house) and thus might refer to a > boundary. Now, how does "cuahuitl" fit into this? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M?xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:58 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > >> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:06:48 -0800 >> Subject: Cuaxochtli >> From: Karen Dakin >> To: >> >> >> >> I remember hearing a discussion of cuaxochtli among ethnohistorians in >> Mexico, and another possibility noted was that it is from cua-(witl) >> 'tree' >> plus xoch- 'flower', because flowering trees were (and possibly still >> are) >> boundary markers at times, since they are easily distinguished, at >> least >> during the time they bloom. >> >> Karen Dakin >> > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M?xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Feb 20 16:34:20 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:34:20 -0600 Subject: another class four verb Message-ID: A while ago someone asked about additions to the list of class four verbs. Well, here is another one. In the Huasteca, "to spit (both intransitive and transitive)" is "chahcha". In Molina, "chihcha" is a class 1 verb, "chihchac". In the Huasteca, it is class 4: "nichahchahqui", "I spat", "tichahchahqueh", "We spat", "nichahchahtoc", "I have spit". There is a less common alternate preterite form which is only used in the singular, "chahchac". This is class one, but none of the plural forms, or forms derived from the preterite stem (ti- compounds) are built on it. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 20 16:39:52 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:39:52 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <001101c63618$df4b3200$0b0ba8c0@sotec6y0gtxrq9> Message-ID: Yukitaka, Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your cuaxochtli problem. "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips. "nitlalxotla" is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from "xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. Molina gives: nitlaxapotla abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper pared, seto o cosa semejante nitexapotla corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get "ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element. ...and we are left to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" Saludos, Joe From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 20 17:30:53 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:30:53 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow! Quoting "R. Joe Campbell" : > Yukitaka, > > Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), > I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your > cuaxochtli problem. > > "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips. "nitlalxotla" > is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). > In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine > Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, > meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. > > "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". > > This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from > "xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. > Molina gives: > > nitlaxapotla abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper > pared, seto o cosa semejante > nitexapotla corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar > > The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get > "ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. > > > So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') > a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element. ...and we are left > to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" > > Saludos, > > Joe > From tezozomoc at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 20 17:14:15 2006 From: tezozomoc at HOTMAIL.COM (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:14:15 +0000 Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: If you have adobe homes... I remember as a child we would make ditches around the house to prevent rain run off from getting into the foundation and the walls of the house. Tezo. Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:54:41 -0500From: dfrye at UMICH.EDUSubject: Re: CuaxochtliTo: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU On the other hand, irrigation ditches and canals almost always run between fields (not down the middle of fields) and do serve as boundary markers. I am not familiar with ditches running around houses. David From: Nahua language and culture discussion on behalf of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDUSent: Mon 2/20/2006 6:29 AMTo: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDUSubject: Re: Cuaxochtli 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is morethan like a stone...a series of stones....or just one stone. Not a ditcharound a house.Michael _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 20 17:59:05 2006 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan D Amith) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:59:05 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Joe and all, In Guerrero xo:tla is a transitive verb meaning, basically, 'to create a deep line in' (for lack of a better translation). Thus it can be used to describe the action of a boat that plows through the water and leaves a large wake. It is also used for what a water snake does as it moves through the water, with its head up (partir el agua). Other uses are to the action of using spurs on the side of a donkey (scratching into its skin) to make it go faster (a losing proposition, by the way). Finally, it is somewhat jokingly used to indicate the action of signing ones name (rubric). Thus xihxo:tla 'sign it' (referring to the action of scratching the pen rapidly across the surface of the paper). So, note that Molina among the cutting into strips has "hazer rayas". The cuttinig is probably a reference to how the cuero was cut, by using a sharp, obsidian perhaps instrument and pressing down to make a deep line in the material so that it would pull apart into strips. Hence quitlalxochilia, etc. So, if cuaxochtli etc. is related to this verb, which seems a good guess, it might be related to this action of rayando and only by extension to the linderos. jda R. Joe Campbell wrote: > Yukitaka, > > Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), > I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your > cuaxochtli problem. > > "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips. "nitlalxotla" > is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). > In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine > Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, > meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. > > "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". > > This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from > "xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. > Molina gives: > > nitlaxapotla abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper > pared, seto o cosa semejante > nitexapotla corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar > > The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get > "ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. > > > So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') > a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element. ...and we are left > to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" > > Saludos, > > Joe -- Jonathan D Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College, Yale University, University of Chicago Of: 717-337-6795 H: 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College, Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Mon Feb 20 18:08:07 2006 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:08:07 EST Subject: Cuaxochtli Message-ID: Listeros: I second the "Wow." Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 2/20/06 10:01:40 AM, mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU writes: > Wow! > > > > Quoting "R. Joe Campbell" : > > > Yukitaka, > > > >? ? ? Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), > > I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your > > cuaxochtli problem. > > > >? ? ? "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips.? "nitlalxotla" > > is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). > > In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine > > Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, > > meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. > > > >? ? ? "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". > > > > This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from > > "xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. > >? ? ? Molina gives: > > > >? ? ? nitlaxapotla?? abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? pared, seto o cosa semejante > >? ? ? nitexapotla? ? corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar > > > >? ? ? The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get > > "ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. > > > > > >? ? ? So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') > > a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element.? ...and we are left > > to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" > > > > Saludos, > > > > Joe > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Mon Feb 20 17:40:54 2006 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria Bolivar) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 09:40:54 -0800 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Esto es todo un tema. Los modos de construcci?n y la arquitectura fuera del altiplano central de M?xico. El adobe y la piedra eran la forma de construcci?n pero yo vi en Zacatecas muros perfectos de piedras colocadas unas sobre otras. Un amigo que fue muerto a tiros me cont? que cuando era ni?o pasaba d?as, previo a levantar un granero o una pieza, buscando piedras que embonaran. Cuando se pod?a tallaban piedras muy peque?as para rellenar huecos entre piedras m?s grandes. Yo viv? un derrumbe en la casa que habit? en Zacatecas. Con la lluvia y la humedad un muro grueso se venci? y cayeron rocas de cantera sobre mis cosas. Un armario de madera maciza qued? convertido en astillas. Pero lo peor fue que cuando fui a intentar recuperar mis cosas, de entre los escombros, lo ?nico que encontr? fue un mont?n de adobe. En aquella dram?tica escena, debo decir que el olor a adobe h?medo me emocion?. Viv?a yo en una casa antigua y eso era prueba. Pues en la actualidad no se usa ya el adobe en la ciudad y un amigo restaurador me dijo que es justo porque lo suaviza la lluvia y se cae. Qu? bonita experiencia esa de recordar que hac?as canales. Yo, por mi parte nunca supe nada de esto y por lo tanto mi p?gina educativa fue aquel derrumbe monstruoso que acab? con un gran n?mero de mis libros y much?simos objetos preciosos. Mar?a Bolivar "We don?t see things as they are, We see things as we are." Anais Nin Dr. Mar?a Dolores Bol?var MBOLIVAR at san.rr.com http://geografiaserrantes.com/laruda/ http://geografiaserrantes.com/imaginomios/ -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Mr. Tezozomoc Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:14 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli If you have adobe homes... I remember as a child we would make ditches around the house to prevent rain run off from getting into the foundation and the walls of the house. Tezo. _____ Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:54:41 -0500 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU On the other hand, irrigation ditches and canals almost always run between fields (not down the middle of fields) and do serve as boundary markers. I am not familiar with ditches running around houses. David _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion on behalf of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sent: Mon 2/20/2006 6:29 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli 1) a "ditch" is not a boundary marker. what we are talking about here is more than like a stone...a series of stones....or just one stone. Not a ditch around a house. Michael _____ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 20 18:25:36 2006 From: teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM (Steffen Haurholm-Larsen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:25:36 +0000 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, Correct me if I?m wrong, but I don't think that anyone so far has suggested the [kwa] part of cuaxochtli to be derived from [kwa:iλ] "Quaitl. estremidad de algo, o la cabe?a...." (Molina 84r) Of course I am referring to Molina's first option, estremidad, meaning the edge of somthing. As for the [?oč] part, from the material given by Yukitaka it seems to be quite complex (the material, not the root) but for the sake of exhausting more options than the ones allready mentioned, I suggest Molinas(160r) "Xochitla. jardin." as a possible candidate. I realize that [tl?] is a suffix which means "place which abounds with..." but in any case it goes to show that the word for flower underwent semantic change to yield meanings asociated with land, property and planting. My best, Steffen >From: "R. Joe Campbell" >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli >Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:39:52 -0500 > >Yukitaka, > > Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), >I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your >cuaxochtli problem. > > "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips. "nitlalxotla" >is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). >In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine >Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, >meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. > > "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". > >This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from >"xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. > Molina gives: > > nitlaxapotla abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper > pared, seto o cosa semejante > nitexapotla corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar > > The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get >"ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. > > > So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') >a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element. ...and we are left >to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" > >Saludos, > >Joe _________________________________________________________________ F? de bedste s?geresultater med MSN Search: http://search.msn.dk From teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 20 18:36:47 2006 From: teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM (Steffen Haurholm-Larsen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:36:47 +0000 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Too late I realize that the list server or hotmail was not able to reproduce parts of my phonetic transscription. Well the first problem occurs with the "tl" of the absoultive suffix in cuaitl and the second in xoch. Too bad, but I hope it's legible. Steffen >From: Steffen Haurholm-Larsen >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli >Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:25:36 +0000 > >Dear all, > >Correct me if I?m wrong, but I don't think that anyone so far has suggested >the [kwa] part of cuaxochtli to be derived from [kwa:iλ] "Quaitl. >estremidad de algo, o la cabe?a...." (Molina 84r) Of course I am referring >to Molina's first option, estremidad, meaning the edge of somthing. >As for the [?oč] part, from the material given by Yukitaka it seems to >be quite complex (the material, not the root) but for the sake of >exhausting more options than the ones allready mentioned, I suggest >Molinas(160r) "Xochitla. jardin." as a possible candidate. I realize that >[tl?] is a suffix which means "place which abounds with..." but in any case >it goes to show that the word for flower underwent semantic change to yield >meanings asociated with land, property and planting. >My best, >Steffen > > >>From: "R. Joe Campbell" >>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >>Subject: Re: Cuaxochtli >>Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:39:52 -0500 >> >>Yukitaka, >> >> Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), >>I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your >>cuaxochtli problem. >> >> "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips. "nitlalxotla" >>is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). >>In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the Florentine >>Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') occurs, >>meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. >> >> "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from "xotla". >> >>This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived from >>"xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. >> Molina gives: >> >> nitlaxapotla abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o romper >> pared, seto o cosa semejante >> nitexapotla corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar >> >> The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get >>"ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. >> >> >> So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word 'obviously') >>a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element. ...and we are left >>to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" >> >>Saludos, >> >>Joe > >_________________________________________________________________ >F? de bedste s?geresultater med MSN Search: http://search.msn.dk _________________________________________________________________ Find dine dokumenter lettere med MSN Toolbar med Windows-pc-s?gning: http://toolbar.msn.dk From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Feb 20 19:27:32 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:27:32 -0600 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <1ed.4c3a90ff.312b5f87@aol.com> Message-ID: Here's another possibility. In the Huasteca "xotla" is "to bang into something", and "xoxotla" is "to stamp on something with your foot". If it's "cuauhxochtli", it could refer to the poles "stamped" into the ground, that Fran mentioned. John On Feb 20, 2006, at 12:08 PM, Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: > Listeros: > > I second the "Wow." > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > In a message dated 2/20/06 10:01:40 AM, mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU writes: > > >> Wow! >> >> >> >> Quoting "R. Joe Campbell" : >> >> > Yukitaka, >> > >> >? ? ? Prodded by questions and remarks from my wife (Mary Clayton), >> > I recalled a verb that may be the key to answering part of your >> > cuaxochtli problem. >> > >> >? ? ? "xotla" is 'to cut', usually slicing or into strips.? >> "nitlalxotla" >> > is 'amojonar o alindar terminos o eredades' (according to Molina). >> > In Book 5, p. 169 of the Dibble and Anderson edition of the >> Florentine >> > Codex, "quitlalxochilia" (with the /tl/ palatalized to 'ch') >> occurs, >> > meaning 'he makes marks on the ground'. >> > >> >? ? ? "xoch(tli) is apparently a patientive noun form derived from >> "xotla". >> > >> > This palatalization of /tl/ is also seen in "xapochtic", derived >> from >> > "xapo(tl)-tla", the "-tla" being a transitive verb formative. >> >? ? ? Molina gives: >> > >> >? ? ? nitlaxapotla?? abrir o horadar pared; agujerear; horadar o >> romper >> >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? pared, seto o cosa semejante >> >? ? ? nitexapotla? ? corromper virgen; desflorar; desuirgar >> > >> >? ? ? The patientive noun "tlaxapochtli" is a hole and you even get >> > "ninotlaxopochhuia" 'caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse'. >> > >> > >> >? ? ? So "cuaxochtli" is apparently (I withhold the word >> 'obviously') >> > a slice or division, modified by a "cua-" element.? ...and we are >> left >> > to wonder "where have all the flowers gone?" >> > >> > Saludos, >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4962 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Mon Feb 20 19:52:45 2006 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:52:45 +0000 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > Here's another possibility. In the Huasteca "xotla" is "to bang > into something", and "xoxotla" is "to stamp on something with > your foot". ... The vowel in the syllable [-xoch]- which is the topic of all this discussion: is it long or short? If it is short, it can't have any connection with [xo_chitl] = "flower", whose [o] is long. Citlalyani. From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Mon Feb 20 19:58:38 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 14:58:38 -0500 Subject: Cuaxochtli In-Reply-To: <20060220195245.80481.qmail@web86702.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In the various colonial and modern sources that I used for compiling ADN, I didn't find an attestation of the word that marked vowel length. Apparently Andrews didn't find any either. So to find out if it's xo: or xo, we need to see what might be found in other modern variants of Nahuatl that preserve some reflex of distinctive vowel length. Does anyone have relevant data? From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK Thu Feb 23 17:33:10 2006 From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:33:10 -0000 Subject: Tepotzoa Message-ID: Dear colleagues, As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term 'tepotzoa'. I am writing an article about the decapitation of women in sacrificial practice, and have become increasingly interested in the word. It is used in the Florentine Codex (The Ceremonies, p.105) to describe the practice by which the ixiptla of Xilonen is sacrificed (by beheading) upon the back of a priest at the festival of Uey tecuilhuitl. The text reads: "auh yn icujtlapan mjcoaia, motocaiotia tepotzoa:". And the translation by Dibble and Anderson is given as "And when there was dying upon his back, it was called "it has a back". This makes it sound as if this is an official 'term' for this form of sacrifice, and so it seems quite surprising that it does not appear in relation to similar festivals (at Ochpaniztli for example). I was wondering if anyone had come across the term in other descriptions of sacrificial ritual and also about the translation as 'it has a back'. Are there other possible interpretations which might be placed on the term? And does the sense which comes across in the term that perhaps it might be almost a unifying of the priest and victim at the moment of sacrifice seem a fair one? I would also be delighted to hear of any articles etc which deal with the subject of female decapitation (particularly in ritual, rather than image, although the latter is also welcome). I have obviously seen quite a few, but any suggestions would be very gratefully received. Best wishes and thank you for your help. Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Feb 23 20:08:21 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:08:21 -0600 Subject: Tepotzoa In-Reply-To: <012001c6389f$37e926a0$54160d54@Caroline> Message-ID: Caroline, There are three possessor suffixes, -eh, -huah, and -yoh, which are attached to nouns and mean, "owner of" that noun. The last suffix, -yoh, extends the idea of owner to "to be covered with" the noun. All three suffixes are actually the singular preterite form of ancient verbs, and for that reason, the compound constructions, such as tepotzhuah, owner of a back", can be considered preterite agentive nouns. The plural forms of each suffix, -ehqueh, -huahqueh, and -yohqueh, owners of...., are actually the plural preterite forms of the ancient verbs. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 23, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: > Dear colleagues, > ? > As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping > that someone on the list might be able to help me with the?term > 'tepotzoa'. I am writing an article about?the decapitation of women in > sacrificial practice, and?have become increasingly interested in the > word. It is used in the Florentine Codex (The Ceremonies, p.105) to > describe the practice by which the ixiptla of Xilonen is sacrificed > (by beheading) upon the back of a priest at the festival of Uey > tecuilhuitl. The text reads: "auh yn icujtlapan mjcoaia, motocaiotia > tepotzoa:". And the translation by Dibble and Anderson is given as > "And when there was dying upon his back, it was called "it has a > back". This makes it sound as if this is an official 'term' for this > form of sacrifice, and so it seems quite surprising that it does not > appear in relation to similar festivals (at Ochpaniztli for example). > ? > I was wondering if anyone had come across the term in other > descriptions of sacrificial ritual and also?about the translation as > 'it has a back'. Are there other possible interpretations which might > be placed on the term? And does the sense which comes across in the > term that perhaps it might be almost a unifying of the priest and > victim at the moment of sacrifice seem a fair one? > ? > I would also be delighted to hear of any articles etc which deal with > the subject of female decapitation (particularly in ritual, rather > than image, although the latter is also welcome). I have obviously > seen quite a few, but any suggestions would be very gratefully > received. > ? > Best wishes and thank you for your help. > Caroline > ----- > Dr. Caroline Dodds > Junior Research Fellow > Sidney Sussex College > Cambridge > CB2 3HU > ? > Tel: 01223 (3)30867 > ced44 at cam.ac.uk > From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK Fri Feb 24 10:02:39 2006 From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:02:39 -0000 Subject: Tepotzoa Message-ID: John, Thanks so much for the helpful clarification and information. If you'll forgive me a rather simple question - if this is the preterite form, might one translate tepotzoa as he/she/it 'had a back' or 'was covered with a back' (rather than 'HAS a back')? Best wishes and thanks again, Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Tepotzoa Caroline, There are three possessor suffixes, -eh, -huah, and -yoh, which are attached to nouns and mean, "owner of" that noun. The last suffix, -yoh, extends the idea of owner to "to be covered with" the noun. All three suffixes are actually the singular preterite form of ancient verbs, and for that reason, the compound constructions, such as tepotzhuah, owner of a back", can be considered preterite agentive nouns. The plural forms of each suffix, -ehqueh, -huahqueh, and -yohqueh, owners of...., are actually the plural preterite forms of the ancient verbs. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 23, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping that > someone on the list might be able to help me with the term 'tepotzoa'. I > am writing an article about the decapitation of women in sacrificial > practice, and have become increasingly interested in the word. It is used > in the Florentine Codex (The Ceremonies, p.105) to describe the practice > by which the ixiptla of Xilonen is sacrificed (by beheading) upon the back > of a priest at the festival of Uey tecuilhuitl. The text reads: "auh yn > icujtlapan mjcoaia, motocaiotia tepotzoa:". And the translation by Dibble > and Anderson is given as "And when there was dying upon his back, it was > called "it has a back". This makes it sound as if this is an official > 'term' for this form of sacrifice, and so it seems quite surprising that > it does not appear in relation to similar festivals (at Ochpaniztli for > example). > > I was wondering if anyone had come across the term in other descriptions > of sacrificial ritual and also about the translation as 'it has a back'. > Are there other possible interpretations which might be placed on the > term? And does the sense which comes across in the term that perhaps it > might be almost a unifying of the priest and victim at the moment of > sacrifice seem a fair one? > > I would also be delighted to hear of any articles etc which deal with the > subject of female decapitation (particularly in ritual, rather than image, > although the latter is also welcome). I have obviously seen quite a few, > but any suggestions would be very gratefully received. > > Best wishes and thank you for your help. > Caroline > ----- > Dr. Caroline Dodds > Junior Research Fellow > Sidney Sussex College > Cambridge > CB2 3HU > > Tel: 01223 (3)30867 > ced44 at cam.ac.uk > From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Feb 24 13:01:52 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 07:01:52 -0600 Subject: Tepotzoa In-Reply-To: <006001c63929$727fd360$67820d54@Caroline> Message-ID: Caroline, No, you wouldn`t translate it in the past. Nahuatl uses three verb tenses, preterite, customary present, and future, to form what are called agentive nouns. In other words, if I have sold things (nitlanamacac), if I sell things everyday (nitlanamacani), or if I will sell things (nitlanamacaz), I am a seller. So all three of these verbal forms can at the same time be translated as the noun phrase "I am a seller or merchant". The form you are interested in, -huah, comes from an ancient verb which is no longer used as such. Therefore, when it is suffixed to a noun, the resulting construction can only be translated as an agentive noun, "the owner of....". There is an explanation of this in Lockhart's Nahuatl as Written, on pp. 53-56, and 70-71. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 24, 2006, at 4:02 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: > John, > > Thanks so much for the helpful clarification and information. If > you'll forgive me a rather simple question - if this is the preterite > form, might one translate tepotzoa as he/she/it 'had a back' or 'was > covered with a back' (rather than 'HAS a back')? > > Best wishes and thanks again, > Caroline > ----- > Dr. Caroline Dodds > Junior Research Fellow > Sidney Sussex College > Cambridge > CB2 3HU > > Tel: 01223 (3)30867 > ced44 at cam.ac.uk > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:08 PM > Subject: Re: Tepotzoa > > > Caroline, > There are three possessor suffixes, -eh, -huah, and -yoh, which are > attached to nouns and mean, "owner of" that noun. The last suffix, > -yoh, extends the idea of owner to "to be covered with" the noun. All > three suffixes are actually the singular preterite form of ancient > verbs, and for that reason, the compound constructions, such as > tepotzhuah, owner of a back", can be considered preterite agentive > nouns. The plural forms of each suffix, -ehqueh, -huahqueh, and > -yohqueh, owners of...., are actually the plural preterite forms of the > ancient verbs. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M?xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > > On Feb 23, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping >> that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term >> 'tepotzoa'. I am writing an article about the decapitation of women >> in sacrificial practice, and have become increasingly interested in >> the word. It is used in the Florentine Codex (The Ceremonies, p.105) >> to describe the practice by which the ixiptla of Xilonen is >> sacrificed (by beheading) upon the back of a priest at the festival >> of Uey tecuilhuitl. The text reads: "auh yn icujtlapan mjcoaia, >> motocaiotia tepotzoa:". And the translation by Dibble and Anderson is >> given as "And when there was dying upon his back, it was called "it >> has a back". This makes it sound as if this is an official 'term' for >> this form of sacrifice, and so it seems quite surprising that it does >> not appear in relation to similar festivals (at Ochpaniztli for >> example). >> >> I was wondering if anyone had come across the term in other >> descriptions of sacrificial ritual and also about the translation as >> 'it has a back'. Are there other possible interpretations which might >> be placed on the term? And does the sense which comes across in the >> term that perhaps it might be almost a unifying of the priest and >> victim at the moment of sacrifice seem a fair one? >> >> I would also be delighted to hear of any articles etc which deal with >> the subject of female decapitation (particularly in ritual, rather >> than image, although the latter is also welcome). I have obviously >> seen quite a few, but any suggestions would be very gratefully >> received. >> >> Best wishes and thank you for your help. >> Caroline >> ----- >> Dr. Caroline Dodds >> Junior Research Fellow >> Sidney Sussex College >> Cambridge >> CB2 3HU >> >> Tel: 01223 (3)30867 >> ced44 at cam.ac.uk >> >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4704 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK Fri Feb 24 13:04:22 2006 From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:04:22 -0000 Subject: Tepotzoa Message-ID: Dear John, Of course - I am confusing the preterite tense in different languages! Thanks so much for clarifying things and for putting up with my highly inexpert attempts. Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 Mob: 07740675610 ced44 at cam.ac.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: idiez at MAC.COM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Tepotzoa Caroline, No, you wouldn`t translate it in the past. Nahuatl uses three verb tenses, preterite, customary present, and future, to form what are called agentive nouns. In other words, if I have sold things (nitlanamacac), if I sell things everyday (nitlanamacani), or if I will sell things (nitlanamacaz), I am a seller. So all three of these verbal forms can at the same time be translated as the noun phrase "I am a seller or merchant". The form you are interested in, -huah, comes from an ancient verb which is no longer used as such. Therefore, when it is suffixed to a noun, the resulting construction can only be translated as an agentive noun, "the owner of....". There is an explanation of this in Lockhart's Nahuatl as Written, on pp. 53-56, and 70-71. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 24, 2006, at 4:02 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: John, Thanks so much for the helpful clarification and information. If you'll forgive me a rather simple question - if this is the preterite form, might one translate tepotzoa as he/she/it 'had a back' or 'was covered with a back' (rather than 'HAS a back')? Best wishes and thanks again, Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Tepotzoa Caroline, There are three possessor suffixes, -eh, -huah, and -yoh, which are attached to nouns and mean, "owner of" that noun. The last suffix, -yoh, extends the idea of owner to "to be covered with" the noun. All three suffixes are actually the singular preterite form of ancient verbs, and for that reason, the compound constructions, such as tepotzhuah, owner of a back", can be considered preterite agentive nouns. The plural forms of each suffix, -ehqueh, -huahqueh, and -yohqueh, owners of...., are actually the plural preterite forms of the ancient verbs. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 23, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Caroline Dodds wrote: Dear colleagues, As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term 'tepotzoa'. I am writing an article about the decapitation of women in sacrificial practice, and have become increasingly interested in the word. It is used in the Florentine Codex (The Ceremonies, p.105) to describe the practice by which the ixiptla of Xilonen is sacrificed (by beheading) upon the back of a priest at the festival of Uey tecuilhuitl. The text reads: "auh yn icujtlapan mjcoaia, motocaiotia tepotzoa:". And the translation by Dibble and Anderson is given as "And when there was dying upon his back, it was called "it has a back". This makes it sound as if this is an official 'term' for this form of sacrifice, and so it seems quite surprising that it does not appear in relation to similar festivals (at Ochpaniztli for example). I was wondering if anyone had come across the term in other descriptions of sacrificial ritual and also about the translation as 'it has a back'. Are there other possible interpretations which might be placed on the term? And does the sense which comes across in the term that perhaps it might be almost a unifying of the priest and victim at the moment of sacrifice seem a fair one? I would also be delighted to hear of any articles etc which deal with the subject of female decapitation (particularly in ritual, rather than image, although the latter is also welcome). I have obviously seen quite a few, but any suggestions would be very gratefully received. Best wishes and thank you for your help. Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Fri Feb 24 14:31:01 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:31:01 -0600 Subject: Tepotzoa In-Reply-To: <012001c6389f$37e926a0$54160d54@Caroline> Message-ID: At 11:33 AM 2/23/2006, you wrote: >As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping >that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term 'tepotzoa'. Would not this be a denominal verb built on the noun "tepotztli" "back" turning the noun into a class 3 verb? The translation of this into English would be difficult however, perhaps "to be a back." John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Feb 24 15:21:49 2006 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:21:49 -0500 Subject: Tepotzoa In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060224082503.042fd9e8@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: the only thing is, -huah is commonly written -oa. Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > At 11:33 AM 2/23/2006, you wrote: > >As a very occasional contributor but frequent lurker, I was hoping > >that someone on the list might be able to help me with the term 'tepotzoa'. > > > Would not this be a denominal verb built on the noun "tepotztli" > "back" turning the noun into a class 3 verb? The translation of > this into English would be difficult however, perhaps "to be a back." > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri Feb 24 17:10:38 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:10:38 -0500 Subject: Tepotzoa In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060224082503.042fd9e8@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, BINGO!! (qualified) I have been looking for some evidence that would help decide whether it might be -huah or -oa (intransitive verb off "tepotztli"). As Miqueltzi has pointed out, the spelling is ambiguous, so it might be either one. But my vote is for -oa (in spite of Dibble and Anderson's translation on page 105, FC, Book 1: "it has a back"). My intuition (which I haven't weighed in milligrams lately) is it more likely means "he [the priest] makes use of his back". The -oa intransitive verber is probably under-recognized in Nahuatl vocabulary. Some examples: ayacachoa he makes use of a rattle cacamamachaloa he opens and closes his mouth (he uses his jaw) camanaloa he makes use of a jest; he jokes caxoa he uses a bowl [caxitl] chichipiazoa he launches a long spit [chihchitl] like a "piyaztli" cocotzoa he runs (makes use of his "cotztli" [calf]) tlaxcaloa he makes/produces tortillas mahpiloa he points (makes use of his finger) popoa he sweeps (uses a popotl) [No! not "sips"!] quiquizoa he plays a trumpet [quiquiztli] tamaloa he makes/produces tamales teponazoa he plays a teponaztli (log drum) tlacualoa he makes/produces food [tlacualli] Saludos, Joe p.s. We are lucky that through some phonological process or scribal error, it didn't get written "tepozoa" or we'd be trying to stretch the semantics of those priests' actions to fit 'iron'. }8-) On Fri, 24 Feb 2006, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > Would not this be a denominal verb built on the noun "tepotztli" "back" > turning the noun into a class 3 verb? The translation of this into English > would be difficult however, perhaps "to be a back." > From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Fri Feb 24 17:20:30 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:20:30 -0500 Subject: Tepotzoa Message-ID: To expand on what John offered, there is a noun derived from tepotz-tli 'back, shoulders,' namely tepotzoh "hunchback" (< tepotz+yoh). I suppose "tepotzoa" could stand for tepotzoh+huah 'he/she/it is the possessor of a hunched back.' Fran Karttunen From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK Fri Feb 24 17:40:16 2006 From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:40:16 -0000 Subject: Tepotzoa Message-ID: Thank so much for all your help and suggestions! I had wondered about the translation which Fran kindly suggested of tepotzoa as 'he/she/it as 'possessor of a hunched back', something which would certainly suggest an interesting perspective on the idea of a priest bending forwards so that the female victim could be laid upon his back for decapitation if, as Sahagun suggests, it is a term for the type of sacrifice. He would certainly be hunched in that position, but if it is a term for the form of sacrifice, it suggests perhaps something more about the importance of the pose. Joe's suggestion that it might be 'he makes use of his back' also seems very logical. But it doesn't quite answer the question of why Sahagun would say that this form of sacrifice is 'called' tepotzoa (which seems to imply a formal term). Perhaps it really is as simple as a description, however. Either way, it is clear that the idea of the tepotzoa sacrifice (which is uniquely associated with female decapitation) is also closely associated with the sacrifice on the priest's back. I wonder why the decapitation takes place in this unusual way as opposed to simply on the stone...... Thanks again. Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 (3)30867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk From bdj at UCHICAGO.EDU Sat Feb 25 03:52:18 2006 From: bdj at UCHICAGO.EDU (Benjamin Johnson) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 21:52:18 -0600 Subject: quimochihuililizque In-Reply-To: <5274517c33fe12c2a0d461c3e9acc370@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Hello! I am a second year graduate student at the University of Chicago with my first post to this list. Before asking my question, I wanted to praise the list generally for its interested and collaborative tone, which encourages the small type of question I am about to ask in addition to bigger and more involved discussions such as the one over "Tepotzoa." Anyway, mine is a very short question: In one document I'm working with I encounter the word "quimochihuililizque" (roughly: they will build it, reverential) which seems to have one applicative marker too many. Of course, the extra -li could have been nothing more than an error of recopying, but I wanted to confirm that it is a departure from some sort of "canonical" form. Thank you. Ben Johnson UChicago From bdj at UCHICAGO.EDU Sat Feb 25 04:00:11 2006 From: bdj at UCHICAGO.EDU (Benjamin Johnson) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:00:11 -0600 Subject: please ignore the last post In-Reply-To: <8d3e7dc7ae22b10b06f39b937ff53d31@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Please forget the last post. I don't know why I forgot the standard form of "chihuililia." Sorry for the confusion. From micc2 at COX.NET Mon Feb 27 19:00:44 2006 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:00:44 -0800 Subject: Jonathan D Amith makes it into the Wall Street Journal... Message-ID: Congratulations to Jonathan on a great story about his invaluable research. The story appeared in the Friday Feb. 24, 2006 issue :-) mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org