From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Wed Mar 15 15:15:34 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:15:34 -0600 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <008201c6478c$a2688470$1401a8c0@Antonio> Message-ID: At 11:27 AM 3/14/2006, you wrote: >Hola listeros, >hay una traduccion del nombre: Tlacaelel ? One author translates it as Man of Great Heart (Brundage) which might be poetic license On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Mar 15 16:17:12 2006 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna Sanchez) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:17:12 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel Message-ID: Might not the reduplication of "liver" then serve as intensifier of some human being quality associated with that organ; emotional feeling > passionate / high spirited? ----- Original Message ----- From: John F. Schwaller To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:15 AM Subject: Re: Tlacaelel At 11:27 AM 3/14/2006, you wrote: Hola listeros, hay una traduccion del nombre: Tlacaelel ? One author translates it as Man of Great Heart (Brundage) which might be poetic license On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Wed Mar 15 16:33:19 2006 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 10:33:19 -0600 Subject: Tlacaelel Message-ID: Fritz Schwaller wrote, in response to an inquiry regarding the name Tlacaelel: >One author translates it as Man of Great Heart (Brundage) which might be poetic license >On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. Just yesterday I was showing my students how certain morphemes in náhuatl function as adjectives, and I put Andrews' (2003: 396) examples of "adjectival nominal nuclear clauses" on the board. He includes "-el", with the meaning "diligent/eager/active", and I wondered to myself if this has anything to do with Tlacaelel. Andrews' examples don't seem to support this. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? David Wright Universidad de Guanajuato From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Mar 15 17:23:12 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:23:12 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <0IW600APYGMNTR@smtp.prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: I'm frequently worried about whether we are talking about active morphological relationships or etymological origins when we discuss a particular "morpheme". In the case of names, I think it leans toward being the latter, so my credulousness goes up. There is a formative (possibly a morpheme and maybe a combination of two morphemes): "e:llelli", which is very common. Of course, the final -li is the absolutive suffix, so we are talking about "e:llel-". Since 'll' does not appear in Nahuatl morphemes (i.e., it is always the product of /l/ and either /y/ or /tl/ juxtaposed at morpheme boundaries), its single morpheme status is dubious. Andrews' suggestion (cf. p. 283 and p. 271) is that "e:llel-" is a compound of "e:l(-li)" [liver] and a modified (unattested) form of "tle(-tl)", namely, "tlel(-li)". He believes that there is a parallel variation in "te(-tl)" [rock] and "tel(-li)" [pile of rocks, rock mound, mound]; he addresses "tel(-li)" on p. 614. Although *some* hypothesis may seem more appealing than *no* hypothesis, I believe that this idea belongs in the area of etymology; morphology is supposed to be dynamic and productive, with no black boxes. Saludos, Joe p.s. Since reduplication in Nahuatl only involves the first vowel and whatever precedes it (if anything), then the sequence 'elel' couldn't originate in reduplication because it wouldn't reach as far as the 'l'. }8-) On Wed, 15 Mar 2006, David Wright wrote: > Fritz Schwaller wrote, in response to an inquiry regarding the name > Tlacaelel: > >> One author translates it as Man of Great Heart (Brundage) which might be > poetic license >> On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on tlacatl > and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. > > Just yesterday I was showing my students how certain morphemes in náhuatl > function as adjectives, and I put Andrews' (2003: 396) examples of > "adjectival nominal nuclear clauses" on the board. He includes "-el", with > the meaning "diligent/eager/active", and I wondered to myself if this has > anything to do with Tlacaelel. Andrews' examples don't seem to support this. > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? > > David Wright > Universidad de Guanajuato > From villas at NYPHOTOSTUDIO.COM Wed Mar 15 17:26:06 2006 From: villas at NYPHOTOSTUDIO.COM (villas) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:26:06 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060315090028.041fe328@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: Why not Tlaka elele! which would translate as Man who expresses suffering, On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:15 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > At 11:27 AM 3/14/2006, you wrote: >> Hola listeros, >> hay una traduccion del nombre: Tlacaelel ? > > > One author translates it as Man of Great Heart (Brundage)  which > might be poetic license > > On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on > tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. > > > > > > John F. Schwaller > President - elect > SUNY Potsdam > > Until 6-30-06: > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN  56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Wed Mar 15 19:13:53 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:13:53 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060315090028.041fe328@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: > > On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on > tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. > > But shouldn't we take into account that in attributive constructions like this, the second element is the head, and the first element is the modifier? Cf. tla:catecolo:tl 'a human sort of owl' (an owl that is not really a simple owl but the companion animal or animal manifestation of a human shaman) So tla:ca- would be 'a human sort of……' And the "elel" part would be the head of the construction. Hence a human sort of "elel," whatever an "elel" might be. (I assume it's actually e:lel) e:lel- (vowel of the first syllable long) appears in the verbs e:lelahci and e:lelqui:za, both having to do with suffering. Oddly enough, a derivation from e:lelqui:za is causative e:lelqui:xtia: 'to cause someone to relax' or even 'to entertain someone.' e:l- is 'liver,' which was considered by the Nahuah to be the bodily seat of strong emotions (whereas the heart, yo:l-, was considered the seat of volition). Getting delivered (qui:xtia:) from strong emotions would certainly be a way to get into a state of relaxation. How one gets from e:l to e:lel is a morphological mystery. Joe, could you favor us with a list of e:l- and e:lel attestions? From villas at ANAWAK.COM Wed Mar 15 20:12:12 2006 From: villas at ANAWAK.COM (villas) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:12:12 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I used Remi Simeons Nahuatl dictionary for all definitions in this e-mail. Tlaca is the plural of Tlacatl. Tlacatl s. adj. Hombre, noble señor, humano. Tlacatecolotl was the word used by Nahuatl speaking priests to try to define the devil, since the mesoamericans had no concept of devil or evil for that matter and since tecolotl is owl and it has apparent horns, they (the priests) tried to use this image of a horned human, hence tlacatecolotl: Devil. Tlacatecolotl is not the nahual form of a shaman, it is a spaniard invention. One should look at other uses of tlacatl, i.e. Tlacateotl, the second king of Tlatelolco. Possibly Mangod or something similar to that. Tlacatian, place of birth, "patria", etc. Tlacatlacuiloliztli, painter of men. Tlacatilitzinoa, birth of a boy. Tlatilizilhuitl, birthday. Tlacatiliztli, birth, generation. So we can see that Tlacatl is linked to the concept of person or human as well as a principle of generation or human birth. El, adj. on the other hand is used only with possesive, no, mo, i, etc, and it means diligent, careful etc and with the neg. anel, i'm lazy, amel, you are lazy etc. on the other hand, elele! interj. expresses suffering: ay!, ay! elleli, afliction, pain. elli, liver. I would construct Tlacaelel to mean Person who generates suffering. (of the other, the enemy, etc). Marcos On Mar 15, 2006, at 2:13 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: >> >> On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on >> tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. >> >> > > But shouldn't we take into account that in attributive constructions > like this, the second element is the head, and the first element is > the modifier? > > Cf. tla:catecolo:tl 'a human sort of owl' (an owl that is not really > a simple owl but the companion animal or animal manifestation of a > human shaman) > > So tla:ca- would be 'a human sort of……' > > And the "elel" part would be the head of the construction. > > Hence a human sort of "elel," whatever an "elel" might be. (I assume > it's actually e:lel) > > e:lel- (vowel of the first syllable long) appears in the verbs > e:lelahci and e:lelqui:za, both having to do with suffering. Oddly > enough, a derivation from e:lelqui:za is causative e:lelqui:xtia: 'to > cause someone to relax' or even 'to entertain someone.' > > e:l- is 'liver,' which was considered by the Nahuah to be the bodily > seat of strong emotions (whereas the heart, yo:l-, was considered the > seat of volition). Getting delivered (qui:xtia:) from strong emotions > would certainly be a way to get into a state of relaxation. > > How one gets from e:l to e:lel is a morphological mystery. > > Joe, could you favor us with a list of e:l- and e:lel attestions? > From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Wed Mar 15 20:39:46 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:39:46 -0600 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <18fed21d4957ceece55342ba5d0da8a5@anawak.com> Message-ID: At 02:12 PM 3/15/2006, Marcos wrote: >So we can see that Tlacatl is linked to the concept of person or >human as well as a principle of generation or human birth. > >El, adj. on the other hand is used only with possesive, no, mo, i, >etc, and it means diligent, careful etc and with the neg. anel, i'm >lazy, amel, you are lazy etc. >on the other hand, > elele! interj. expresses suffering: ay!, ay! >elleli, afliction, pain. >elli, liver. > > >I would construct Tlacaelel to mean Person who generates suffering. >(of the other, the enemy, etc). Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way. Just because the bits come together does not mean that the whole is the sum of the parts. That's why several folk have been commenting on whether the "-elel" actually represents anything having to do with "liver" or is another grammatical construction altogether. John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Mar 15 23:09:22 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:09:22 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Frances Karttunen : > Joe, could you favor us with a list of e:l- and e:lel attestions? > Fran, Since this is in sloppy, down-and-dirty format, this may not qualify for the apellation "favoring". |8-) This is still very incomplete... some words from the Florentine still don't carry glosses. The "e:llelli morpheme" is my current conservative "this-is-as-safe-as-we-can-be-now" label, since I still have my "dubits" about *tlelli. 1. "b. ... f." items are all from the Florentine. "f" refers to my file number, not "folio". <8-) 2. "mis_analysis..." is a note to myself about the notation in prefix separation done by a friend of mine (Alonso) in his 1555 and 1571 dictionaries (e.g., ruydo hazer con yra. ni, nacomana [for nin[o]ahcomana]). 3. Prefixes are placed *after* stems, with notations like "qui-" and "=nin", the latter in the case of Molina's prefix decisions. 4. "p" numbers (e.g., p11, p54) refer to the whole matrix of person-number subject and object prefixes; for example p11-p54 = nino-. Saludos, Joe *e:llelli *** ayellele. . . b.11 f.9 eelelquixtiaya , qu-. they amused her. . b.1 f.1 eellelquixtia =nin. espaciarse por via de recreacion o passatiempo; recrearse. . 55m-9 eellelquixtiaya , m[o]-. they took their pleasure. . b.8 f.2 ehellelquixtiaya , quim-. they gave them solace. . b.8 f.2 ehellelquixtihtinemini , m[o]-. one who goes about continually amusing himself. . b.10 f.2 elelaxiti =te. graue cosa que da pesadumbre. . 71m1-12 elelaxitia =nite. afligir mucho a otro. . 55m-00 elelaxitiani =te. afligidor tal. . 55m- 00 elelaxitiliztli =te. aflicion o afligimiento tal. . 55m-00 elelaxitilli =tla. afligido assi. . 55m-00 eleleltia =nin. desigualar en el precio de lo que se compra. . 71m1-7 elelmachiliztli =ne. dessabrimiento. . 55m-6 elelmachitia =nitla. dessabrir a otro. . 55m-6 elelmatiliztli =ne. dessabrimiento. . 55m-6 elelquixtia , m[o]-. . . b.8 f.3 elelquixtia , qu-. he causes him to rejoice. . b.6 f.10 elelquixtia =nite. deleytar a otro. . 55m-4 elelquixtiloyan =nepantla tonatiuh ne. sesteadero lugar de siesta. . 55m-18 elelquiza in nichoca =n. llorar mucho. . 71m1-14 eleltia , qu-. they hinder it. . b.5 f.1 eleltzin , i-. . . b.6 f.3 eleltzin , m[o]-. your [H.] annoyance. . b.6 f.1 ellaxitiliztica =te. grauemente assi. . 71m1-12 ellel , i-. . . b.4 f.2 ellel , ii-. his annoyance. . b.6 f.9 ellel , im-. ; their anger. . b.4 f.11 ellel , m[o]-. your pain. . b.6 f.2 ellel , oim-. . . b.2 f.9 ellelaci , m[o]-. . . b.6 f.5 ellelaci =n. angustiarse mucho; estomagarse enojarse; recebir pena. . 55m-00 ellelaci in nichoca =n. llorar mucho. . 55m-12 ellelacic , i-. ; dejected. . b.10 f.5 ellelacic , ii-. ; dejected. . b.4 f.1 ellelacic , m[o]-. . . b.10 f.11 ellelacic , o-. he is full of affliction. . b.10 f.4 ellelacic , oi-. . . b.4 f.2 ellelacic , oii-. he endured anguish. . b.6 f.1 ellelacic , oim-. . . b.11 f.23 ellelacic , om-. . . b.6 f.6 ellelacitiaz , ii-. . . b.6 f.17 ellelacitinemi , im-. they go about in great affliction. . b.6 f.1 ellelacitiuh , im-. . . b.1 f.2 ellelaxiti , onm[o]-. . . b.4 f.2 ellelaxiti , otla-. . . b.4 f.1 ellelaxiti , te-. . . b.10 f.3 ellelaxiti =te. afligidor desta manera; graue cosa que da pesadumbre. . 71m1-1 ellelaxitia , qu-. . . b.7 f.2 ellelaxitia , quim-. they afflict them. . b.2 f.9 ellelaxitia =nite. angustiar a otro assi; fatigar a otro; ymportuno ser sin tiempo; molestar dando mucho enojo; afligir mucho a otro; ymportuno ser assi. . 55m-00 ellelaxitiani , m[o]-. one who is chagrined. . b.10 f.3 ellelaxitiani =te. ymportuno sin tiempo; molestador tal; afligidor desta manera; angustiador tal; ymportuno. . 55m-11 ellelaxitiaya , tla-. they felt anguish. . b.3 f.1 ellelaxitica , te-. . . b.11 f.26 ellelaxitican , te-. place where one is caused pain; place of affliction; place of suffering; place which causes sorrow. . b.6 f.8 ellelaxitili , otoconm[o]-. you [H.] offended him. . b.6 f.3 ellelaxitiliztli =te. grauedad assi; ymportunidad assi; aflicion tal; angustia desta manera; grauedad desta manera. . 55m-10 ellelaxitilli , tla-. . . b.10 f.5 ellelaxitilli =tla. molestado desta manera; afligido assi; angustiado desta manera. . 55m-14 ellelaxitique , otitla-. we caused offense. . b.6 f.3 ellelaxitiqui =te. angustiador tal. . 71m1-2 ellelcehuia =nite. estoruar o impedir a otro. . 71m1-11 ellele. . . b.10 f.3 ellele , a-. . . b.11 f.9 ellelmachiliztica =ne. dessabridamente. . 55m-6 ellelmachiliztli =te. dessabrimiento tal. . 71m1-8 ellelmachitia =nite. dessabrir a otro; dessabrir o dar pena a otro. . 55m-6 ellelmachitilli =tla. dessabrido assi. . 55m-6 ellelmati =nin. dessabrir se; dessabrirse; querellarse del amigo. . 55m-6 ellelmatiliztica =ne. dessabridamente. . 55m-6 ellelmatiliztli =ne. querella assi. . 55m-16 ellelmatini =mo. dessabrido assi; querelloso desta manera. . 55m-6 ellelmatqui =mo. dessabrido assi. . 55m- 6 ellelquixti , xiqu-. . . b.6 f.5 ellelquixti =te. aplazible cosa. . 55m-1 ellelquixtia , tla-. he provides recreation. . b.10 f.2 ellelquixtia =nepantla tonatiuh nin. sestear tener la siestra; sestear tener la siesta en algun lugar. . 55m-18 ellelquixtia =nin. desenhadarse; passar tiempo; recrearse. . 55m-5 ellelquixtia =nino. espaciarse por via de recreacion o passatiempo. . 71m1-11 ellelquixtia =nite. alegrar a otro recreandole; desenhadar a otro; hazer plazer; recrear a otro; alegrar a otro recreandolo; deleitar a otro; desenhadar o recrear a otro; hazer plazer a otro. . 55m-00 ellelquixtiani =te. hazedor assi; molestador tal. . 71m1-12 ellelquixtiaya , m[o]-. he was amused. . b.8 f.4 ellelquixtiaya , quim-. they provided them solace. . b.8 f.2 ellelquixtican =te. deleytoso lugar; monta¤a deleytable; deleitoso lugar. . 55m-4 ellelquixtiliztica =ne. alegremente assi. . 55m-00 ellelquixtiliztica =te. aplaziblemente. . 55m-1 ellelquixtiliztica =ne. alegremente assi. . 71m1-2 ellelquixtiliztica =te. aplaziblemente. . 71m1-2 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. alegria tal. . 55m-00 ellelquixtiliztli =te. deleyte assi; desenhadamiento. . 55m-4 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. iuego para desenojarse. . 55m-11 ellelquixtiliztli =te. molestia assi. . 55m-14 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. passa tiempo. . 55m-15 ellelquixtiliztli , te-. . . b.4 f.2 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. recreacion; refrigerio. . 55m-17 ellelquixtiliztli =nepantla tonatiuh ne. siesta enel medio del dia. <-- -- p53-e:llelli-qui:za-caus02-liz>. 55m-18 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. alegria tal. . 71m1-2 ellelquixtiliztli =te. desenhadamiento assi. . 71m1-7 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. desenhadamiento assi; iuego para desenojarse. . 71m1-7 ellelquixtiliztli =te. molestia assi. . 71m1-15 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. passatiempo; recreacion; refrigerio. . 71m1-16 ellelquixtiliztli =nepantla tonatiuh ne. siesta en el medio del dia. . 71m1-19 ellelquixtilli =tla. desenhadado. . 55m-5 ellelquixtique , m[o]-. they took their pleasure. . b.12 f.5 ellelquixtiqui =mo. alegre assi. . 55m-00 ellelquiz , oii-. . . b.3 f.1 ellelquiza , i-. . . b.3 f.2 ellelquiza =n. espaciarse por via de recreacion o passatiempo. . 55m-9 ellelquiza in nichoca =n. llorar mucho. . 55m-12 ellelquizaz , ii-. . . b.8 f.4 elleltentica. mohino enojado. . 55m-14 ellelti =mo. arrepentido assi; desconcertada cosa assi. . 55m-1 elleltia , qu-. he impedes it; it impedes it; it arrests it. . b.3 f.1 elleltia =itla nech. ympedimento tener. . 55m-11 elleltia =nin. abstenerse de algo, oyrse alamano; arrepentirse de lo hecho; arrepentirse delo que hizo; contricion tener; desigualarse dela yguala o precio; embara‡arse; escatimar; pesar por arepentirse; pesarme o arrepentirme de algo. . 71m1- 1 elleltia =nite. desapassionar; desconcertar a otros desta manera; embara‡ar a otro impedirle; embara‡ar a otro; impedirle; embargar o estoruar; empedir a otro; estoruar; estoruar o impedir a otro; refrenar; resistir; sofrenar; ympedir que no se haga alguna cosa. . 55m-5 elleltia =nitla. escatimar. . 71m1-10 elleltia =oc itla ic nonn. recrecerse algo que impide. . 55m-17 elleltia =oc itla ic nonno. recrecerse algo que impide. . 71m1-18 elleltia =ocachi ic nonn. recrecerse algo que impide. . 55m-17 elleltia =tit. desconcertarse los que se auian concertado. . 71m1-7 elleltiani =mo. quebrantador de confederacion. . 55m-16 elleltiliztli =atle ne. soltura para mal. . 55m-18 elleltiliztli =itla ic ne. recrecimiento tal. . 71m1-18 elleltiliztli =ne. arrepentimiento tal; desconcierto tal; embara‡o tal; ympedimento assi; pesadumbre assi. . 55m-1 elleltiliztli =te. embara‡o tal; estoruo; ympedimiento tal; refrenamiento; resistencia; sofrenada. . 55m-7 elleltilli =tla. desapassionado assi; embara‡ado assi; estoruado; ympedido assi. . 55m-5 elleltique =mo. desconcertados assi. . 71m1-7 elleltiqui =mo. embara‡ado assi. . 55m-7 elleltzin , im-. their annoyance [H.]; their pleasure. . b.6 f.4 elleltzin , m[o]-. your [H.] annoyance. . b.6 f.1 elleltzin , om[o]-. your [H.] rage; your [H.] annoyance. . b.6 f.1 iellellacic. . . b.10 f.3 tlaocolelelaxitiliztli =te. angustia desta manera. . 71m1-2 tlaocolellelaci =ni. angustiarse mucho. . 71m1-2 tlaocolellelaxitia =nite. angustiar a otro assi. . 71m1-2 tlaocolellelaxitiani =te. angustiador tal. . 71m1-2 tlaocolellelaxitilli. angustiado desta manera. . 71m1-2 tlaocolellelaxitiqui =te. angustiador tal. . 71m1-2 yellelaci. estomagado. <--e:llelli-ahci>. 55m-9 yellele. hateful, furious. . b.11 f.9 yellelpopozahua. estomagado. . 55m-9 yolellelaxitiliz huentli =ne. ofrenda o presente de angustias. x>. 71m1-16 From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Mar 16 00:21:01 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:21:01 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060315090028.041fe328@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to Joe's concordance we see -elel/-ellel as a possessed noun (ieleltzin, mellel, etc.) with the sense of annoyance or rage. So tla:cae:lel looks to be something like 'human rage.' From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Mar 16 13:56:23 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:56:23 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <000701c6484b$eef357b0$6a806e41@JS> Message-ID: On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:17 AM, Joanna Sanchez wrote: > Might not the reduplication of "liver" then serve as intensifier of > some human being quality associated with that organ; emotional feeling > > passionate / high spirited? > From the attestations Joe provided, it's clear that e:lel does exist as a free-standing noun and refers to strong negative emotion. But we can't take it for granted that e:lel is a reduplication of e:l 'liver,' because, as has been stated earlier in this discussion, that's not how reduplication in Nahuatl works. All productive types of reduplication in Nahuatl involve the initial consonant (if there is one) and vowel of the stem. That is: CVC > CV.CVC There is no productive process that reduplicates the stem itself: VC > VC.VC -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 852 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbonline at PRODIGY.NET Sun Mar 19 05:54:56 2006 From: gbonline at PRODIGY.NET (Gary Bennett) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:54:56 -0800 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Sun Mar 19 21:56:31 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 15:56:31 CST Subject: subscribe Message-ID: Send your request to: listserv at lists.umn.edu John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 Fax 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon Mar 20 15:15:32 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 09:15:32 -0600 Subject: Tlen Huicani Message-ID: Colleagues, There is a musical group called Tlen Huicani that is performing here in the US, originally from Veracruz. Their website reports that the name of the group means "the singers" in Nahuatl. Is this some variant in Veracruz Nahuatl where"cuicani" would become "huicani'? John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Tue Mar 21 02:51:27 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:51:27 -0500 Subject: Tlen Huicani In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060320090947.0413d2a0@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: > > Is this some variant in Veracruz Nahuatl where"cuicani" would become > "huicani'? > Here are some others: "huetzpalin" for cuetzpalin 'lizard', "huahcalli' for cuahcalli 'cage', and "huixin" for cuixin 'hawk'. Joe may be able to give us some data on geographical distribution. From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Mar 21 07:01:42 2006 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 23:01:42 -0800 Subject: Tlen Huicani In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060320090947.0413d2a0@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: In my experience in the Huasteca (chicontepec region) the ver bto sing was "huica" mario John F. Schwaller wrote: > Colleagues, > > There is a musical group called Tlen Huicani that is performing here > in the US, originally from Veracruz. Their website reports that the > name of the group means "the singers" in Nahuatl. > > Is this some variant in Veracruz Nahuatl where"cuicani" would become > "huicani'? > > > > > John F. Schwaller > President - elect > SUNY Potsdam > > Until 6-30-06: > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > > From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Tue Mar 21 17:50:42 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:50:42 -0600 Subject: Why huica rather than cuica? Message-ID: Now that we have established that in some dialect words such as cuica or cuicani become huica or huicani, can anyone give me a reasonable explanation why it happens? John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Tue Mar 21 18:30:15 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:30:15 -0500 Subject: Why huica rather than cuica? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060321114931.0440b930@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: I don't know about the dialectal distribution of cuica --> huica, but the change is a partially familiar one to me. "Partially" here means that the environment for the change is more free than the one in Hueyapan, Morelos. In Hueyapan, a series of changes happens intervocalically (i.e., between vowels): /w/ becomes [v]: huetzi he falls nivetzi I fall /k/ becomes [g]: (this will necessitate the 'k' spelling for klarity) calaqui kalagi he enters nigalagi I enter /kw/ becomes [gw] (and further softens to [w]): cualani kwalani he gets angry niwalani I get angry This set of changes is not impeded by word boundaries: amo cualli devil, bad one (in neighboring Santa Cruz) amo walle devil, bad one (in Hueyapan) The voicing (or relaxation change) of /k/ to [g] is a relatively common one in Nahuatl dialects; the /kw/ to [w] change is a parallel one, but I haven't seen it in all the "/k/ to [g]" dialects. I would expect that a dialect which yields "tlen huicani" has a voicing/relaxation process which is more free than that of Hueyapan (i.e., ...doesn't require a preceding vowel). Saludos Joe p.s. ...and just to anticipate another possible hypothesis, I seriously doubt that "kw --> w" involves a simple loss of the 'k' element from the /kw/ unit phoneme. On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Now that we have established that in some dialect words such as cuica or > cuicani become huica or huicani, can anyone give me a reasonable explanation > why it happens? > From idiez at MAC.COM Tue Mar 21 19:49:58 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:49:58 -0600 Subject: Tlen Huicani In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060320090947.0413d2a0@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: John, For northern Veracruz: huica, "to sing"; huicaquetl, "singer"; huicanih, "singers". I don`t understand how the "tlen" works though, unless it means something like "those who are the singers". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Mar 20, 2006, at 9:15 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Colleagues, > > There is a musical group called Tlen Huicani that is performing here > in the US, originally from Veracruz. Their website reports that the > name of the group means "the singers" in Nahuatl. > > Is this some variant in Veracruz Nahuatl where"cuicani" would become > "huicani'? > > > > > John F. Schwaller > President - elect > SUNY Potsdam > > Until 6-30-06: > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1657 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Fri Mar 24 16:53:43 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:53:43 -0600 Subject: Special Issue, The Americas Message-ID: The Americas, published by the Academy of American Franciscan History in it most recent number has three articles of possible interest to scholars of Nahuatl: The Americas 62:3 (Jan. 2006) Kay A, Read and Jane Rosenthal, "The Chalcan Woman's Song: Sex as Political Metaphor in Fifteenth-Century Mexico," pp. 313-348 Camilla Townsend, "'What in the World Have You Done to Me, My Lover?' Sex, Servitude, and Politics Among the Pre-Conquest Nahuas as Seen in the Cantares Mexicanos ," pp. 349-389 John F. Schwaller, "The Ilhuica of the Nahua: Is Heaven Just a Place?" pp. 391-412 Current articles of The Americas are also available on Project Muse http://muse.jhu.edu/ americas at cua.edu John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From huehueteot at AOL.COM Fri Mar 24 22:53:22 2006 From: huehueteot at AOL.COM (huehueteot at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:53:22 -0500 Subject: Special Issue, The Americas In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060324105149.0432b3f0@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, I was wondering if you knew anyway to get in touch with one of the authors on the first article. I can't afford a subscription to the mag itself so I thought to ask you. Jane Rosenthal was a classmate of mine at the University of Arizona in the mid 70's. Last I knew she was teaching at Long Beach State in Long Beach, CA. I lost her email address in the very early 80's. I ran into her once in the 90's at an SAA conference but wasn't able to get any info at that time. I would be interested in a .pdf copy of your article BTW if that is possible. While I am writing I wanted to extend my congratulations to you on your pending promotion. President of a SUNY Campus, wow! I'll bet that will involve some real challenges. Best of Luck with the new job and life in NY State. Cheers, Hugh G. "Sam" Ball And remember: "This too Shall Pass! -----Original Message----- From: John F. Schwaller To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:53:43 -0600 Subject: Special Issue, The Americas The Americas, published by the Academy of American Franciscan History in it most recent number has three articles of possible interest to scholars of Nahuatl: The Americas 62:3 (Jan. 2006) Kay A, Read and Jane Rosenthal, "The Chalcan Woman's Song: Sex as Political Metaphor in Fifteenth-Century Mexico," pp. 313-348 Camilla Townsend, "'What in the World Have You Done to Me, My Lover?' Sex, Servitude, and Politics Among the Pre-Conquest Nahuas as Seen in the Cantares Mexicanos ," pp. 349-389 John F. Schwaller, "The Ilhuica of the Nahua: Is Heaven Just a Place?" pp. 391-412 Current articles of The Americas are also available on Project Muse http://muse.jhu.edu/ americas at cua.edu John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Sat Mar 25 14:21:32 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 08:21:32 CST Subject: Special Issue, The Americas Message-ID: I'm leaving for Potsdam tomorrow so I'll send you that info when I get there early in the week. Thanks for your good wishes On 24 Mar 2006, huehueteot at aol.com wrote: > Fritz, > > I was wondering if you knew anyway to get in touch with one of the=20 > authors on the first article. I can't afford a subscription to the mag=20 > itself so I thought to ask you. Jane Rosenthal was a classmate of mine=20 > at the University of Arizona in the mid 70's. Last I knew she was=20 > teaching at Long Beach State in Long Beach, CA. I lost her email=20 > address in the very early 80's. I ran into her once in the 90's at an=20 > SAA conference but wasn't able to get any info at that time. I would be=20 > interested in a .pdf copy of your article BTW if that is possible. > > While I am writing I wanted to extend my congratulations to you on=20 > your pending promotion. President of a SUNY Campus, wow! I'll bet that=20 > will involve some real challenges. Best of Luck with the new job and=20 > life in NY State. > > Cheers, > > Hugh G. "Sam" Ball > > And remember: > > "This too Shall Pass! > > -----Original Message----- > From: John F. Schwaller > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Sent: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:53:43 -0600 > Subject: Special Issue, The Americas > > The Americas, published by the Academy of American Franciscan History=20 > in it most recent number has three articles of possible interest to=20 > scholars of Nahuatl: > > > The Americas 62:3 (Jan. 2006) > > Kay A, Read and Jane Rosenthal, "The Chalcan Woman's Song: Sex as > Political > Metaphor in Fifteenth-Century Mexico," pp. 313-348 > > Camilla Townsend, "'What in the World Have You Done to Me, My Lover?' > Sex, > Servitude, and Politics Among the Pre-Conquest Nahuas as Seen in the > Cantares > Mexicanos ," pp. 349-389 > > John F. Schwaller, "The Ilhuica of the Nahua: Is Heaven Just a Place?" > pp. > 391-412 > > Current articles of The Americas are also available on Project Muse > http://muse.jhu.edu/ > > americas at cua.edu > > > John F. Schwaller > President - elect > SUNY Potsdam > > Until 6-30-06: > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > > > > =20 > John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 Fax 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Mar 30 00:38:50 2006 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:38:50 -0800 Subject: searching for book Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is entitled: "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" I have an old photocopy that is very hard to read. I think the author is Gordon Brotherston and the book is called: *Aesop in Mexico: die Fabeln des Aesop in aztektischer Sprache / A 16th Century Aztec Version of Aesop's Fables, Text mit deutscher und englischer Übersetzung, aus dem Nachlaß Gerdt Kutschers herausgegeben von Gordon Brotherston und Günter Vollmer, 1987, 259 pp. from: IBERO-AMERIKANISCHES INSTITUT PREUSSISCHER KULTURBESITZ Can anyone direct me to a copy? (I do not read German so I cannot find the book using the university's catalog) * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amoxtli at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 30 01:40:29 2006 From: amoxtli at EARTHLINK.NET (Walter Koenig) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:40:29 -0800 Subject: searching for book In-Reply-To: <442B289A.5020100@cox.net> Message-ID: Niltze Mario. The book is in print. ISBN: 3-7861-1509-5 You can order it from the publisher, Gebr. Mann Verlag for EUR 19.90 http://www.kunstbuecher-online.de/controller.php? cmd=detail&titelnummer=301509&verlag=3 You can also order it through www.amazon.de Also for RUR 19.90. Just plug in the title: "Aesop in Mexico". It is also available cheaper from a number of used book dealers in Germany. If you just want to borrow it, no Library in the Circuit or Link has it. You might want to try ILL. Best Wishes, Walter O. Koenig On Mar 29, 2006, at 4:38 PM, micc2 wrote: > Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is > entitled: > > "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" > > I have an old photocopy that is very hard to read. I think the > author is Gordon Brotherston and the book is called: > > Aesop in Mexico: die Fabeln des Aesop in aztektischer Sprache / A > 16th Century Aztec Version of Aesop's Fables, Text mit deutscher > und englischer Übersetzung, aus dem Nachlaß Gerdt Kutschers > herausgegeben von Gordon Brotherston und Günter Vollmer, 1987, 259 pp. > > > from: > > > IBERO-AMERIKANISCHES INSTITUT > PREUSSISCHER KULTURBESITZ > > > Can anyone direct me to a copy? (I do not read German so I cannot > find the book using the university's catalog) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mckennawerks at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 30 01:56:25 2006 From: mckennawerks at EARTHLINK.NET (McKenna) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 20:56:25 -0500 Subject: searching for book Message-ID: De-lurking momentarily... This sounds fun enough that I want a copy, too. The ISBN is: 3786115095. it appears that Amazon.de has it for 19.90 euros. I don't speak German so I'm not sure, it's by the same authors the allbooks search engine points there.... http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3786115095/ref%3Dnosim/bookfindercom/302-9395332-5943253 Also, Amazon.com has one used copy for $129USD (), pretty steep if the book on Amazon.de is the same one. Regards, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: micc2 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:38 PM Subject: searching for book Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is entitled: "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Thu Mar 30 04:06:32 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 22:06:32 CST Subject: searching for book Message-ID: Although not the same book, it did remind me of a modern collection of folktales in Nahuatl collected and edited by Pablo Gonzalez Casanova and published under the title of _Cuentos indigenas_ by UNAM. It has been reprinted several times since its first appearance in the 1940s. On 29 Mar 2006, micc2 wrote: > Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is entitled: > > "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" > > > Can anyone direct me to a copy? (I do not read German so I cannot find > the book using the university's catalog) > * > John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-2006: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 Fax 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Thu Mar 30 13:38:17 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:38:17 CST Subject: Fwd: [Aztlan] Re: On the cactus in the place-name sign for Tenochtitlan Message-ID: On 29 Mar 2006, Janice Lynn Robertson wrote: > > In response to a discussion Re: [Aztlan] Ma, Ic : Eagle and Serpent on > the Dresen Codex, David Hixson wrote: > > Finally, remember that "Tenochtitlan" is symbolized in > the Nahuatl text (which is logographic) by a cactus > growing out of a rock. The word itself only refers to > the cactus (not an eagle or a snake). > > With respect to "Te-noch-titlan," I think it's important to acknowledge > that the transcribed place-name refers not to the cactus plant > (nohpal-li), but specifically to its fruit (noch-tli). The eagle (an > avatar of Huitzilopochtli) cues the reader in this respect: reaching > out with one foot, it is about to sink it's big black talons (compare > the rendering of obsidian knife elements in other Codex Mendoza > place-name signs) into one of the cactus fruits (a.k.a. "fruit of the > sun.") One might infer from this that the raptor is about to pluck and > devour the cactus fruit (the snake becomes comparable at this point). > > For more on this subject see: Heyden, Doris. The Eagle, the Cactus, the > Rock: The Roots of Mexico-Tenochtitlan's Foundation Myth and Symbol > British Archaeological Reports International Series 484. Oxford, 1989. > > I hope this is helpful! > > Janice Lynn Robertson, Ph.D. > Art History > > From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Mar 30 20:36:04 2006 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:36:04 -0800 Subject: [Aztlan] searching for book In-Reply-To: <9ad1b6fa0603300508m362cb2b9g70ed37995473f8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Brigitta, I too have that book, and the Aesop's fables are not part of its corpus. I have located the book: *FÁBULAS DE ESOPO EN IDIOMA MEXICANO Publicada por el Dr. Antonio Peñafiel.* And I will be buying the German book that my friend Walter has recommended. Thank you to all who have helped me find this rare gem of colonial Nahuatl expression! mario Birgitta Leander wrote: > I have the book - /Cuentos Indígenas/ - by Pablo González Casanova in > my private library. It is published by UNAM (Biblioteca de Filología y > Lingüística Indígenas) in Mexico in 1946. If you give me some more > specifications about the article you are looking for, I could take a > look for it in the book mentioned by Professor Schwaller. > > Dr Birgitta Leander > Universidad de las Américas, Puebla > > > > On 3/29/06, *micc2* > wrote: > > Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is > entitled: > > "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" > > I have an old photocopy that is very hard to read. I think the > author is Gordon Brotherston and the book is called: > > *Aesop in Mexico: die Fabeln des Aesop in aztektischer Sprache / A > 16th Century Aztec Version of Aesop's Fables, Text mit deutscher > und englischer Übersetzung, aus dem Nachlaß Gerdt Kutschers > herausgegeben von Gordon Brotherston und Günter Vollmer, 1987, 259 > pp. > > > from: > > > IBERO-AMERIKANISCHES INSTITUT > PREUSSISCHER KULTURBESITZ > > > Can anyone direct me to a copy? (I do not read German so I cannot > find the book using the university's catalog) > * > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Thu Mar 30 20:40:46 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:40:46 CST Subject: [Aztlan] searching for book Message-ID: I had suggested the Gonzalez Casanova not as a the book being sought but rather as a similar work. Thanks to Brigitta for the exact citation. On 30 Mar 2006, micc2 wrote: > Dear Brigitta, > > I too have that book, and the Aesop's fables are not part of its corpus. > > I have located the book: > > *F�BULAS DE ESOPO EN IDIOMA MEXICANO Publicada por el Dr. Antonio Pe�afiel.* > > And I will be buying the German book that my friend Walter has recommended. > > Thank you to all who have helped me find this rare gem of colonial Nahuatl > expression! > > mario > > > > Birgitta Leander wrote: > > I have the book - /Cuentos Ind�genas/ - by Pablo Gonz�lez Casanova in > > my private library. It is published by UNAM (Biblioteca de Filolog�a y > > Ling��stica Ind�genas) in Mexico in 1946. If you give me some more > > specifications about the article you are looking for, I could take a > > look for it in the book mentioned by Professor Schwaller. > > > > Dr Birgitta Leander > > Universidad de las Am�ricas, Puebla > > > > > > > > On 3/29/06, *micc2* > wrote: > > > > Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is > > entitled: > > > > "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" > > > > I have an old photocopy that is very hard to read. I think the > > author is Gordon Brotherston and the book is called: > > > > *Aesop in Mexico: die Fabeln des Aesop in aztektischer Sprache / A > > 16th Century Aztec Version of Aesop's Fables, Text mit deutscher > > und englischer �bersetzung, aus dem Nachla� Gerdt Kutschers > > herausgegeben von Gordon Brotherston und G�nter Vollmer, 1987, 259 > > pp. > > > > > > from: > > > > > > IBERO-AMERIKANISCHES INSTITUT > > PREUSSISCHER KULTURBESITZ > > > > > > Can anyone direct me to a copy? (I do not read German so I cannot > > find the book using the university's catalog) > > * > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aztlan mailing list > > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > > > > > John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-2006: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 Fax 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Mar 31 18:29:57 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:29:57 -0600 Subject: cultural learning strategies Message-ID: Listeros, One of my indigenous students, Manuel de la Cruz, is studying Psychology here in Zacatecas. He has experienced first hand the problems faced by indigenous students who leave their villages (northern Veracruz) for the first time, travel to a primarily mestizo region (Zacatecas) and do their high school and university studies. He would like to do his senior thesis on learning strategies specific to the Nahua culture, in order to educate mestizo teachers and help indigenous students make the transition to the mestizo university environment. Obviously, he will rely heavily on his own experience, as well as that of his fellow students, but he would like to know if anyone on the list can recommend some relevant bibliography. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Wed Mar 15 15:15:34 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:15:34 -0600 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <008201c6478c$a2688470$1401a8c0@Antonio> Message-ID: At 11:27 AM 3/14/2006, you wrote: >Hola listeros, >hay una traduccion del nombre: Tlacaelel ? One author translates it as Man of Great Heart (Brundage) which might be poetic license On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Mar 15 16:17:12 2006 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna Sanchez) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:17:12 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel Message-ID: Might not the reduplication of "liver" then serve as intensifier of some human being quality associated with that organ; emotional feeling > passionate / high spirited? ----- Original Message ----- From: John F. Schwaller To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:15 AM Subject: Re: Tlacaelel At 11:27 AM 3/14/2006, you wrote: Hola listeros, hay una traduccion del nombre: Tlacaelel ? One author translates it as Man of Great Heart (Brundage) which might be poetic license On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Wed Mar 15 16:33:19 2006 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 10:33:19 -0600 Subject: Tlacaelel Message-ID: Fritz Schwaller wrote, in response to an inquiry regarding the name Tlacaelel: >One author translates it as Man of Great Heart (Brundage) which might be poetic license >On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. Just yesterday I was showing my students how certain morphemes in n?huatl function as adjectives, and I put Andrews' (2003: 396) examples of "adjectival nominal nuclear clauses" on the board. He includes "-el", with the meaning "diligent/eager/active", and I wondered to myself if this has anything to do with Tlacaelel. Andrews' examples don't seem to support this. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? David Wright Universidad de Guanajuato From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Mar 15 17:23:12 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:23:12 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <0IW600APYGMNTR@smtp.prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: I'm frequently worried about whether we are talking about active morphological relationships or etymological origins when we discuss a particular "morpheme". In the case of names, I think it leans toward being the latter, so my credulousness goes up. There is a formative (possibly a morpheme and maybe a combination of two morphemes): "e:llelli", which is very common. Of course, the final -li is the absolutive suffix, so we are talking about "e:llel-". Since 'll' does not appear in Nahuatl morphemes (i.e., it is always the product of /l/ and either /y/ or /tl/ juxtaposed at morpheme boundaries), its single morpheme status is dubious. Andrews' suggestion (cf. p. 283 and p. 271) is that "e:llel-" is a compound of "e:l(-li)" [liver] and a modified (unattested) form of "tle(-tl)", namely, "tlel(-li)". He believes that there is a parallel variation in "te(-tl)" [rock] and "tel(-li)" [pile of rocks, rock mound, mound]; he addresses "tel(-li)" on p. 614. Although *some* hypothesis may seem more appealing than *no* hypothesis, I believe that this idea belongs in the area of etymology; morphology is supposed to be dynamic and productive, with no black boxes. Saludos, Joe p.s. Since reduplication in Nahuatl only involves the first vowel and whatever precedes it (if anything), then the sequence 'elel' couldn't originate in reduplication because it wouldn't reach as far as the 'l'. }8-) On Wed, 15 Mar 2006, David Wright wrote: > Fritz Schwaller wrote, in response to an inquiry regarding the name > Tlacaelel: > >> One author translates it as Man of Great Heart (Brundage) which might be > poetic license >> On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on tlacatl > and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. > > Just yesterday I was showing my students how certain morphemes in n?huatl > function as adjectives, and I put Andrews' (2003: 396) examples of > "adjectival nominal nuclear clauses" on the board. He includes "-el", with > the meaning "diligent/eager/active", and I wondered to myself if this has > anything to do with Tlacaelel. Andrews' examples don't seem to support this. > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? > > David Wright > Universidad de Guanajuato > From villas at NYPHOTOSTUDIO.COM Wed Mar 15 17:26:06 2006 From: villas at NYPHOTOSTUDIO.COM (villas) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:26:06 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060315090028.041fe328@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: Why not Tlaka elele! which would translate as Man who expresses suffering, On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:15 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > At 11:27 AM 3/14/2006, you wrote: >> Hola listeros, >> hay una traduccion del nombre: Tlacaelel ? > > > One author translates it as Man of Great Heart (Brundage)? which > might be poetic license > > On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on > tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. > > > > > > John F. Schwaller > President - elect > SUNY Potsdam > > Until 6-30-06: > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN? 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Wed Mar 15 19:13:53 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:13:53 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060315090028.041fe328@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: > > On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on > tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. > > But shouldn't we take into account that in attributive constructions like this, the second element is the head, and the first element is the modifier? Cf. tla:catecolo:tl 'a human sort of owl' (an owl that is not really a simple owl but the companion animal or animal manifestation of a human shaman) So tla:ca- would be 'a human sort of??' And the "elel" part would be the head of the construction. Hence a human sort of "elel," whatever an "elel" might be. (I assume it's actually e:lel) e:lel- (vowel of the first syllable long) appears in the verbs e:lelahci and e:lelqui:za, both having to do with suffering. Oddly enough, a derivation from e:lelqui:za is causative e:lelqui:xtia: 'to cause someone to relax' or even 'to entertain someone.' e:l- is 'liver,' which was considered by the Nahuah to be the bodily seat of strong emotions (whereas the heart, yo:l-, was considered the seat of volition). Getting delivered (qui:xtia:) from strong emotions would certainly be a way to get into a state of relaxation. How one gets from e:l to e:lel is a morphological mystery. Joe, could you favor us with a list of e:l- and e:lel attestions? From villas at ANAWAK.COM Wed Mar 15 20:12:12 2006 From: villas at ANAWAK.COM (villas) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:12:12 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I used Remi Simeons Nahuatl dictionary for all definitions in this e-mail. Tlaca is the plural of Tlacatl. Tlacatl s. adj. Hombre, noble se?or, humano. Tlacatecolotl was the word used by Nahuatl speaking priests to try to define the devil, since the mesoamericans had no concept of devil or evil for that matter and since tecolotl is owl and it has apparent horns, they (the priests) tried to use this image of a horned human, hence tlacatecolotl: Devil. Tlacatecolotl is not the nahual form of a shaman, it is a spaniard invention. One should look at other uses of tlacatl, i.e. Tlacateotl, the second king of Tlatelolco. Possibly Mangod or something similar to that. Tlacatian, place of birth, "patria", etc. Tlacatlacuiloliztli, painter of men. Tlacatilitzinoa, birth of a boy. Tlatilizilhuitl, birthday. Tlacatiliztli, birth, generation. So we can see that Tlacatl is linked to the concept of person or human as well as a principle of generation or human birth. El, adj. on the other hand is used only with possesive, no, mo, i, etc, and it means diligent, careful etc and with the neg. anel, i'm lazy, amel, you are lazy etc. on the other hand, elele! interj. expresses suffering: ay!, ay! elleli, afliction, pain. elli, liver. I would construct Tlacaelel to mean Person who generates suffering. (of the other, the enemy, etc). Marcos On Mar 15, 2006, at 2:13 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: >> >> On the surface, though, it would seem to be more Liver Man based on >> tlacatl and elli, with reduplication of the -el- of liver. >> >> > > But shouldn't we take into account that in attributive constructions > like this, the second element is the head, and the first element is > the modifier? > > Cf. tla:catecolo:tl 'a human sort of owl' (an owl that is not really > a simple owl but the companion animal or animal manifestation of a > human shaman) > > So tla:ca- would be 'a human sort of??' > > And the "elel" part would be the head of the construction. > > Hence a human sort of "elel," whatever an "elel" might be. (I assume > it's actually e:lel) > > e:lel- (vowel of the first syllable long) appears in the verbs > e:lelahci and e:lelqui:za, both having to do with suffering. Oddly > enough, a derivation from e:lelqui:za is causative e:lelqui:xtia: 'to > cause someone to relax' or even 'to entertain someone.' > > e:l- is 'liver,' which was considered by the Nahuah to be the bodily > seat of strong emotions (whereas the heart, yo:l-, was considered the > seat of volition). Getting delivered (qui:xtia:) from strong emotions > would certainly be a way to get into a state of relaxation. > > How one gets from e:l to e:lel is a morphological mystery. > > Joe, could you favor us with a list of e:l- and e:lel attestions? > From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Wed Mar 15 20:39:46 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:39:46 -0600 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <18fed21d4957ceece55342ba5d0da8a5@anawak.com> Message-ID: At 02:12 PM 3/15/2006, Marcos wrote: >So we can see that Tlacatl is linked to the concept of person or >human as well as a principle of generation or human birth. > >El, adj. on the other hand is used only with possesive, no, mo, i, >etc, and it means diligent, careful etc and with the neg. anel, i'm >lazy, amel, you are lazy etc. >on the other hand, > elele! interj. expresses suffering: ay!, ay! >elleli, afliction, pain. >elli, liver. > > >I would construct Tlacaelel to mean Person who generates suffering. >(of the other, the enemy, etc). Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way. Just because the bits come together does not mean that the whole is the sum of the parts. That's why several folk have been commenting on whether the "-elel" actually represents anything having to do with "liver" or is another grammatical construction altogether. John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Mar 15 23:09:22 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:09:22 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Frances Karttunen : > Joe, could you favor us with a list of e:l- and e:lel attestions? > Fran, Since this is in sloppy, down-and-dirty format, this may not qualify for the apellation "favoring". |8-) This is still very incomplete... some words from the Florentine still don't carry glosses. The "e:llelli morpheme" is my current conservative "this-is-as-safe-as-we-can-be-now" label, since I still have my "dubits" about *tlelli. 1. "b. ... f." items are all from the Florentine. "f" refers to my file number, not "folio". <8-) 2. "mis_analysis..." is a note to myself about the notation in prefix separation done by a friend of mine (Alonso) in his 1555 and 1571 dictionaries (e.g., ruydo hazer con yra. ni, nacomana [for nin[o]ahcomana]). 3. Prefixes are placed *after* stems, with notations like "qui-" and "=nin", the latter in the case of Molina's prefix decisions. 4. "p" numbers (e.g., p11, p54) refer to the whole matrix of person-number subject and object prefixes; for example p11-p54 = nino-. Saludos, Joe *e:llelli *** ayellele. . . b.11 f.9 eelelquixtiaya , qu-. they amused her. . b.1 f.1 eellelquixtia =nin. espaciarse por via de recreacion o passatiempo; recrearse. . 55m-9 eellelquixtiaya , m[o]-. they took their pleasure. . b.8 f.2 ehellelquixtiaya , quim-. they gave them solace. . b.8 f.2 ehellelquixtihtinemini , m[o]-. one who goes about continually amusing himself. . b.10 f.2 elelaxiti =te. graue cosa que da pesadumbre. . 71m1-12 elelaxitia =nite. afligir mucho a otro. . 55m-00 elelaxitiani =te. afligidor tal. . 55m- 00 elelaxitiliztli =te. aflicion o afligimiento tal. . 55m-00 elelaxitilli =tla. afligido assi. . 55m-00 eleleltia =nin. desigualar en el precio de lo que se compra. . 71m1-7 elelmachiliztli =ne. dessabrimiento. . 55m-6 elelmachitia =nitla. dessabrir a otro. . 55m-6 elelmatiliztli =ne. dessabrimiento. . 55m-6 elelquixtia , m[o]-. . . b.8 f.3 elelquixtia , qu-. he causes him to rejoice. . b.6 f.10 elelquixtia =nite. deleytar a otro. . 55m-4 elelquixtiloyan =nepantla tonatiuh ne. sesteadero lugar de siesta. . 55m-18 elelquiza in nichoca =n. llorar mucho. . 71m1-14 eleltia , qu-. they hinder it. . b.5 f.1 eleltzin , i-. . . b.6 f.3 eleltzin , m[o]-. your [H.] annoyance. . b.6 f.1 ellaxitiliztica =te. grauemente assi. . 71m1-12 ellel , i-. . . b.4 f.2 ellel , ii-. his annoyance. . b.6 f.9 ellel , im-. ; their anger. . b.4 f.11 ellel , m[o]-. your pain. . b.6 f.2 ellel , oim-. . . b.2 f.9 ellelaci , m[o]-. . . b.6 f.5 ellelaci =n. angustiarse mucho; estomagarse enojarse; recebir pena. . 55m-00 ellelaci in nichoca =n. llorar mucho. . 55m-12 ellelacic , i-. ; dejected. . b.10 f.5 ellelacic , ii-. ; dejected. . b.4 f.1 ellelacic , m[o]-. . . b.10 f.11 ellelacic , o-. he is full of affliction. . b.10 f.4 ellelacic , oi-. . . b.4 f.2 ellelacic , oii-. he endured anguish. . b.6 f.1 ellelacic , oim-. . . b.11 f.23 ellelacic , om-. . . b.6 f.6 ellelacitiaz , ii-. . . b.6 f.17 ellelacitinemi , im-. they go about in great affliction. . b.6 f.1 ellelacitiuh , im-. . . b.1 f.2 ellelaxiti , onm[o]-. . . b.4 f.2 ellelaxiti , otla-. . . b.4 f.1 ellelaxiti , te-. . . b.10 f.3 ellelaxiti =te. afligidor desta manera; graue cosa que da pesadumbre. . 71m1-1 ellelaxitia , qu-. . . b.7 f.2 ellelaxitia , quim-. they afflict them. . b.2 f.9 ellelaxitia =nite. angustiar a otro assi; fatigar a otro; ymportuno ser sin tiempo; molestar dando mucho enojo; afligir mucho a otro; ymportuno ser assi. . 55m-00 ellelaxitiani , m[o]-. one who is chagrined. . b.10 f.3 ellelaxitiani =te. ymportuno sin tiempo; molestador tal; afligidor desta manera; angustiador tal; ymportuno. . 55m-11 ellelaxitiaya , tla-. they felt anguish. . b.3 f.1 ellelaxitica , te-. . . b.11 f.26 ellelaxitican , te-. place where one is caused pain; place of affliction; place of suffering; place which causes sorrow. . b.6 f.8 ellelaxitili , otoconm[o]-. you [H.] offended him. . b.6 f.3 ellelaxitiliztli =te. grauedad assi; ymportunidad assi; aflicion tal; angustia desta manera; grauedad desta manera. . 55m-10 ellelaxitilli , tla-. . . b.10 f.5 ellelaxitilli =tla. molestado desta manera; afligido assi; angustiado desta manera. . 55m-14 ellelaxitique , otitla-. we caused offense. . b.6 f.3 ellelaxitiqui =te. angustiador tal. . 71m1-2 ellelcehuia =nite. estoruar o impedir a otro. . 71m1-11 ellele. . . b.10 f.3 ellele , a-. . . b.11 f.9 ellelmachiliztica =ne. dessabridamente. . 55m-6 ellelmachiliztli =te. dessabrimiento tal. . 71m1-8 ellelmachitia =nite. dessabrir a otro; dessabrir o dar pena a otro. . 55m-6 ellelmachitilli =tla. dessabrido assi. . 55m-6 ellelmati =nin. dessabrir se; dessabrirse; querellarse del amigo. . 55m-6 ellelmatiliztica =ne. dessabridamente. . 55m-6 ellelmatiliztli =ne. querella assi. . 55m-16 ellelmatini =mo. dessabrido assi; querelloso desta manera. . 55m-6 ellelmatqui =mo. dessabrido assi. . 55m- 6 ellelquixti , xiqu-. . . b.6 f.5 ellelquixti =te. aplazible cosa. . 55m-1 ellelquixtia , tla-. he provides recreation. . b.10 f.2 ellelquixtia =nepantla tonatiuh nin. sestear tener la siestra; sestear tener la siesta en algun lugar. . 55m-18 ellelquixtia =nin. desenhadarse; passar tiempo; recrearse. . 55m-5 ellelquixtia =nino. espaciarse por via de recreacion o passatiempo. . 71m1-11 ellelquixtia =nite. alegrar a otro recreandole; desenhadar a otro; hazer plazer; recrear a otro; alegrar a otro recreandolo; deleitar a otro; desenhadar o recrear a otro; hazer plazer a otro. . 55m-00 ellelquixtiani =te. hazedor assi; molestador tal. . 71m1-12 ellelquixtiaya , m[o]-. he was amused. . b.8 f.4 ellelquixtiaya , quim-. they provided them solace. . b.8 f.2 ellelquixtican =te. deleytoso lugar; monta?a deleytable; deleitoso lugar. . 55m-4 ellelquixtiliztica =ne. alegremente assi. . 55m-00 ellelquixtiliztica =te. aplaziblemente. . 55m-1 ellelquixtiliztica =ne. alegremente assi. . 71m1-2 ellelquixtiliztica =te. aplaziblemente. . 71m1-2 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. alegria tal. . 55m-00 ellelquixtiliztli =te. deleyte assi; desenhadamiento. . 55m-4 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. iuego para desenojarse. . 55m-11 ellelquixtiliztli =te. molestia assi. . 55m-14 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. passa tiempo. . 55m-15 ellelquixtiliztli , te-. . . b.4 f.2 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. recreacion; refrigerio. . 55m-17 ellelquixtiliztli =nepantla tonatiuh ne. siesta enel medio del dia. <-- -- p53-e:llelli-qui:za-caus02-liz>. 55m-18 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. alegria tal. . 71m1-2 ellelquixtiliztli =te. desenhadamiento assi. . 71m1-7 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. desenhadamiento assi; iuego para desenojarse. . 71m1-7 ellelquixtiliztli =te. molestia assi. . 71m1-15 ellelquixtiliztli =ne. passatiempo; recreacion; refrigerio. . 71m1-16 ellelquixtiliztli =nepantla tonatiuh ne. siesta en el medio del dia. . 71m1-19 ellelquixtilli =tla. desenhadado. . 55m-5 ellelquixtique , m[o]-. they took their pleasure. . b.12 f.5 ellelquixtiqui =mo. alegre assi. . 55m-00 ellelquiz , oii-. . . b.3 f.1 ellelquiza , i-. . . b.3 f.2 ellelquiza =n. espaciarse por via de recreacion o passatiempo. . 55m-9 ellelquiza in nichoca =n. llorar mucho. . 55m-12 ellelquizaz , ii-. . . b.8 f.4 elleltentica. mohino enojado. . 55m-14 ellelti =mo. arrepentido assi; desconcertada cosa assi. . 55m-1 elleltia , qu-. he impedes it; it impedes it; it arrests it. . b.3 f.1 elleltia =itla nech. ympedimento tener. . 55m-11 elleltia =nin. abstenerse de algo, oyrse alamano; arrepentirse de lo hecho; arrepentirse delo que hizo; contricion tener; desigualarse dela yguala o precio; embara?arse; escatimar; pesar por arepentirse; pesarme o arrepentirme de algo. . 71m1- 1 elleltia =nite. desapassionar; desconcertar a otros desta manera; embara?ar a otro impedirle; embara?ar a otro; impedirle; embargar o estoruar; empedir a otro; estoruar; estoruar o impedir a otro; refrenar; resistir; sofrenar; ympedir que no se haga alguna cosa. . 55m-5 elleltia =nitla. escatimar. . 71m1-10 elleltia =oc itla ic nonn. recrecerse algo que impide. . 55m-17 elleltia =oc itla ic nonno. recrecerse algo que impide. . 71m1-18 elleltia =ocachi ic nonn. recrecerse algo que impide. . 55m-17 elleltia =tit. desconcertarse los que se auian concertado. . 71m1-7 elleltiani =mo. quebrantador de confederacion. . 55m-16 elleltiliztli =atle ne. soltura para mal. . 55m-18 elleltiliztli =itla ic ne. recrecimiento tal. . 71m1-18 elleltiliztli =ne. arrepentimiento tal; desconcierto tal; embara?o tal; ympedimento assi; pesadumbre assi. . 55m-1 elleltiliztli =te. embara?o tal; estoruo; ympedimiento tal; refrenamiento; resistencia; sofrenada. . 55m-7 elleltilli =tla. desapassionado assi; embara?ado assi; estoruado; ympedido assi. . 55m-5 elleltique =mo. desconcertados assi. . 71m1-7 elleltiqui =mo. embara?ado assi. . 55m-7 elleltzin , im-. their annoyance [H.]; their pleasure. . b.6 f.4 elleltzin , m[o]-. your [H.] annoyance. . b.6 f.1 elleltzin , om[o]-. your [H.] rage; your [H.] annoyance. . b.6 f.1 iellellacic. . . b.10 f.3 tlaocolelelaxitiliztli =te. angustia desta manera. . 71m1-2 tlaocolellelaci =ni. angustiarse mucho. . 71m1-2 tlaocolellelaxitia =nite. angustiar a otro assi. . 71m1-2 tlaocolellelaxitiani =te. angustiador tal. . 71m1-2 tlaocolellelaxitilli. angustiado desta manera. . 71m1-2 tlaocolellelaxitiqui =te. angustiador tal. . 71m1-2 yellelaci. estomagado. <--e:llelli-ahci>. 55m-9 yellele. hateful, furious. . b.11 f.9 yellelpopozahua. estomagado. . 55m-9 yolellelaxitiliz huentli =ne. ofrenda o presente de angustias. x>. 71m1-16 From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Mar 16 00:21:01 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:21:01 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060315090028.041fe328@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to Joe's concordance we see -elel/-ellel as a possessed noun (ieleltzin, mellel, etc.) with the sense of annoyance or rage. So tla:cae:lel looks to be something like 'human rage.' From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Mar 16 13:56:23 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:56:23 -0500 Subject: Tlacaelel In-Reply-To: <000701c6484b$eef357b0$6a806e41@JS> Message-ID: On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:17 AM, Joanna Sanchez wrote: > Might not the reduplication of "liver" then serve as intensifier of > some human being quality associated with that organ;?emotional feeling > > passionate / high spirited? > From the attestations Joe provided, it's clear that e:lel does exist as a free-standing noun and refers to strong negative emotion. But we can't take it for granted that e:lel is a reduplication of e:l 'liver,' because, as has been stated earlier in this discussion, that's not how reduplication in Nahuatl works. All productive types of reduplication in Nahuatl involve the initial consonant (if there is one) and vowel of the stem. That is: CVC > CV.CVC There is no productive process that reduplicates the stem itself: VC > VC.VC -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 852 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbonline at PRODIGY.NET Sun Mar 19 05:54:56 2006 From: gbonline at PRODIGY.NET (Gary Bennett) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:54:56 -0800 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Sun Mar 19 21:56:31 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 15:56:31 CST Subject: subscribe Message-ID: Send your request to: listserv at lists.umn.edu John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 Fax 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon Mar 20 15:15:32 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 09:15:32 -0600 Subject: Tlen Huicani Message-ID: Colleagues, There is a musical group called Tlen Huicani that is performing here in the US, originally from Veracruz. Their website reports that the name of the group means "the singers" in Nahuatl. Is this some variant in Veracruz Nahuatl where"cuicani" would become "huicani'? John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Tue Mar 21 02:51:27 2006 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:51:27 -0500 Subject: Tlen Huicani In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060320090947.0413d2a0@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: > > Is this some variant in Veracruz Nahuatl where"cuicani" would become > "huicani'? > Here are some others: "huetzpalin" for cuetzpalin 'lizard', "huahcalli' for cuahcalli 'cage', and "huixin" for cuixin 'hawk'. Joe may be able to give us some data on geographical distribution. From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Mar 21 07:01:42 2006 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 23:01:42 -0800 Subject: Tlen Huicani In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060320090947.0413d2a0@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: In my experience in the Huasteca (chicontepec region) the ver bto sing was "huica" mario John F. Schwaller wrote: > Colleagues, > > There is a musical group called Tlen Huicani that is performing here > in the US, originally from Veracruz. Their website reports that the > name of the group means "the singers" in Nahuatl. > > Is this some variant in Veracruz Nahuatl where"cuicani" would become > "huicani'? > > > > > John F. Schwaller > President - elect > SUNY Potsdam > > Until 6-30-06: > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > > From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Tue Mar 21 17:50:42 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:50:42 -0600 Subject: Why huica rather than cuica? Message-ID: Now that we have established that in some dialect words such as cuica or cuicani become huica or huicani, can anyone give me a reasonable explanation why it happens? John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Tue Mar 21 18:30:15 2006 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:30:15 -0500 Subject: Why huica rather than cuica? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060321114931.0440b930@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: I don't know about the dialectal distribution of cuica --> huica, but the change is a partially familiar one to me. "Partially" here means that the environment for the change is more free than the one in Hueyapan, Morelos. In Hueyapan, a series of changes happens intervocalically (i.e., between vowels): /w/ becomes [v]: huetzi he falls nivetzi I fall /k/ becomes [g]: (this will necessitate the 'k' spelling for klarity) calaqui kalagi he enters nigalagi I enter /kw/ becomes [gw] (and further softens to [w]): cualani kwalani he gets angry niwalani I get angry This set of changes is not impeded by word boundaries: amo cualli devil, bad one (in neighboring Santa Cruz) amo walle devil, bad one (in Hueyapan) The voicing (or relaxation change) of /k/ to [g] is a relatively common one in Nahuatl dialects; the /kw/ to [w] change is a parallel one, but I haven't seen it in all the "/k/ to [g]" dialects. I would expect that a dialect which yields "tlen huicani" has a voicing/relaxation process which is more free than that of Hueyapan (i.e., ...doesn't require a preceding vowel). Saludos Joe p.s. ...and just to anticipate another possible hypothesis, I seriously doubt that "kw --> w" involves a simple loss of the 'k' element from the /kw/ unit phoneme. On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Now that we have established that in some dialect words such as cuica or > cuicani become huica or huicani, can anyone give me a reasonable explanation > why it happens? > From idiez at MAC.COM Tue Mar 21 19:49:58 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:49:58 -0600 Subject: Tlen Huicani In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060320090947.0413d2a0@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: John, For northern Veracruz: huica, "to sing"; huicaquetl, "singer"; huicanih, "singers". I don`t understand how the "tlen" works though, unless it means something like "those who are the singers". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Mar 20, 2006, at 9:15 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Colleagues, > > There is a musical group called Tlen Huicani that is performing here > in the US, originally from Veracruz. Their website reports that the > name of the group means "the singers" in Nahuatl. > > Is this some variant in Veracruz Nahuatl where"cuicani" would become > "huicani'? > > > > > John F. Schwaller > President - elect > SUNY Potsdam > > Until 6-30-06: > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1657 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Fri Mar 24 16:53:43 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:53:43 -0600 Subject: Special Issue, The Americas Message-ID: The Americas, published by the Academy of American Franciscan History in it most recent number has three articles of possible interest to scholars of Nahuatl: The Americas 62:3 (Jan. 2006) Kay A, Read and Jane Rosenthal, "The Chalcan Woman's Song: Sex as Political Metaphor in Fifteenth-Century Mexico," pp. 313-348 Camilla Townsend, "'What in the World Have You Done to Me, My Lover?' Sex, Servitude, and Politics Among the Pre-Conquest Nahuas as Seen in the Cantares Mexicanos ," pp. 349-389 John F. Schwaller, "The Ilhuica of the Nahua: Is Heaven Just a Place?" pp. 391-412 Current articles of The Americas are also available on Project Muse http://muse.jhu.edu/ americas at cua.edu John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From huehueteot at AOL.COM Fri Mar 24 22:53:22 2006 From: huehueteot at AOL.COM (huehueteot at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:53:22 -0500 Subject: Special Issue, The Americas In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060324105149.0432b3f0@morris.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, I was wondering if you knew anyway to get in touch with one of the authors on the first article. I can't afford a subscription to the mag itself so I thought to ask you. Jane Rosenthal was a classmate of mine at the University of Arizona in the mid 70's. Last I knew she was teaching at Long Beach State in Long Beach, CA. I lost her email address in the very early 80's. I ran into her once in the 90's at an SAA conference but wasn't able to get any info at that time. I would be interested in a .pdf copy of your article BTW if that is possible. While I am writing I wanted to extend my congratulations to you on your pending promotion. President of a SUNY Campus, wow! I'll bet that will involve some real challenges. Best of Luck with the new job and life in NY State. Cheers, Hugh G. "Sam" Ball And remember: "This too Shall Pass! -----Original Message----- From: John F. Schwaller To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:53:43 -0600 Subject: Special Issue, The Americas The Americas, published by the Academy of American Franciscan History in it most recent number has three articles of possible interest to scholars of Nahuatl: The Americas 62:3 (Jan. 2006) Kay A, Read and Jane Rosenthal, "The Chalcan Woman's Song: Sex as Political Metaphor in Fifteenth-Century Mexico," pp. 313-348 Camilla Townsend, "'What in the World Have You Done to Me, My Lover?' Sex, Servitude, and Politics Among the Pre-Conquest Nahuas as Seen in the Cantares Mexicanos ," pp. 349-389 John F. Schwaller, "The Ilhuica of the Nahua: Is Heaven Just a Place?" pp. 391-412 Current articles of The Americas are also available on Project Muse http://muse.jhu.edu/ americas at cua.edu John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Sat Mar 25 14:21:32 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 08:21:32 CST Subject: Special Issue, The Americas Message-ID: I'm leaving for Potsdam tomorrow so I'll send you that info when I get there early in the week. Thanks for your good wishes On 24 Mar 2006, huehueteot at aol.com wrote: > Fritz, > > I was wondering if you knew anyway to get in touch with one of the=20 > authors on the first article. I can't afford a subscription to the mag=20 > itself so I thought to ask you. Jane Rosenthal was a classmate of mine=20 > at the University of Arizona in the mid 70's. Last I knew she was=20 > teaching at Long Beach State in Long Beach, CA. I lost her email=20 > address in the very early 80's. I ran into her once in the 90's at an=20 > SAA conference but wasn't able to get any info at that time. I would be=20 > interested in a .pdf copy of your article BTW if that is possible. > > While I am writing I wanted to extend my congratulations to you on=20 > your pending promotion. President of a SUNY Campus, wow! I'll bet that=20 > will involve some real challenges. Best of Luck with the new job and=20 > life in NY State. > > Cheers, > > Hugh G. "Sam" Ball > > And remember: > > "This too Shall Pass! > > -----Original Message----- > From: John F. Schwaller > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Sent: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:53:43 -0600 > Subject: Special Issue, The Americas > > The Americas, published by the Academy of American Franciscan History=20 > in it most recent number has three articles of possible interest to=20 > scholars of Nahuatl: > > > The Americas 62:3 (Jan. 2006) > > Kay A, Read and Jane Rosenthal, "The Chalcan Woman's Song: Sex as > Political > Metaphor in Fifteenth-Century Mexico," pp. 313-348 > > Camilla Townsend, "'What in the World Have You Done to Me, My Lover?' > Sex, > Servitude, and Politics Among the Pre-Conquest Nahuas as Seen in the > Cantares > Mexicanos ," pp. 349-389 > > John F. Schwaller, "The Ilhuica of the Nahua: Is Heaven Just a Place?" > pp. > 391-412 > > Current articles of The Americas are also available on Project Muse > http://muse.jhu.edu/ > > americas at cua.edu > > > John F. Schwaller > President - elect > SUNY Potsdam > > Until 6-30-06: > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > > > > =20 > John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 Fax 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Mar 30 00:38:50 2006 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:38:50 -0800 Subject: searching for book Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is entitled: "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" I have an old photocopy that is very hard to read. I think the author is Gordon Brotherston and the book is called: *Aesop in Mexico: die Fabeln des Aesop in aztektischer Sprache / A 16th Century Aztec Version of Aesop's Fables, Text mit deutscher und englischer ?bersetzung, aus dem Nachla? Gerdt Kutschers herausgegeben von Gordon Brotherston und G?nter Vollmer, 1987, 259 pp. from: IBERO-AMERIKANISCHES INSTITUT PREUSSISCHER KULTURBESITZ Can anyone direct me to a copy? (I do not read German so I cannot find the book using the university's catalog) * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amoxtli at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 30 01:40:29 2006 From: amoxtli at EARTHLINK.NET (Walter Koenig) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:40:29 -0800 Subject: searching for book In-Reply-To: <442B289A.5020100@cox.net> Message-ID: Niltze Mario. The book is in print. ISBN: 3-7861-1509-5 You can order it from the publisher, Gebr. Mann Verlag for EUR 19.90 http://www.kunstbuecher-online.de/controller.php? cmd=detail&titelnummer=301509&verlag=3 You can also order it through www.amazon.de Also for RUR 19.90. Just plug in the title: "Aesop in Mexico". It is also available cheaper from a number of used book dealers in Germany. If you just want to borrow it, no Library in the Circuit or Link has it. You might want to try ILL. Best Wishes, Walter O. Koenig On Mar 29, 2006, at 4:38 PM, micc2 wrote: > Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is > entitled: > > "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" > > I have an old photocopy that is very hard to read. I think the > author is Gordon Brotherston and the book is called: > > Aesop in Mexico: die Fabeln des Aesop in aztektischer Sprache / A > 16th Century Aztec Version of Aesop's Fables, Text mit deutscher > und englischer ?bersetzung, aus dem Nachla? Gerdt Kutschers > herausgegeben von Gordon Brotherston und G?nter Vollmer, 1987, 259 pp. > > > from: > > > IBERO-AMERIKANISCHES INSTITUT > PREUSSISCHER KULTURBESITZ > > > Can anyone direct me to a copy? (I do not read German so I cannot > find the book using the university's catalog) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mckennawerks at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 30 01:56:25 2006 From: mckennawerks at EARTHLINK.NET (McKenna) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 20:56:25 -0500 Subject: searching for book Message-ID: De-lurking momentarily... This sounds fun enough that I want a copy, too. The ISBN is: 3786115095. it appears that Amazon.de has it for 19.90 euros. I don't speak German so I'm not sure, it's by the same authors the allbooks search engine points there.... http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3786115095/ref%3Dnosim/bookfindercom/302-9395332-5943253 Also, Amazon.com has one used copy for $129USD (), pretty steep if the book on Amazon.de is the same one. Regards, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: micc2 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:38 PM Subject: searching for book Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is entitled: "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Thu Mar 30 04:06:32 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 22:06:32 CST Subject: searching for book Message-ID: Although not the same book, it did remind me of a modern collection of folktales in Nahuatl collected and edited by Pablo Gonzalez Casanova and published under the title of _Cuentos indigenas_ by UNAM. It has been reprinted several times since its first appearance in the 1940s. On 29 Mar 2006, micc2 wrote: > Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is entitled: > > "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" > > > Can anyone direct me to a copy? (I do not read German so I cannot find > the book using the university's catalog) > * > John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-2006: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 Fax 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Thu Mar 30 13:38:17 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:38:17 CST Subject: Fwd: [Aztlan] Re: On the cactus in the place-name sign for Tenochtitlan Message-ID: On 29 Mar 2006, Janice Lynn Robertson wrote: > > In response to a discussion Re: [Aztlan] Ma, Ic : Eagle and Serpent on > the Dresen Codex, David Hixson wrote: > > Finally, remember that "Tenochtitlan" is symbolized in > the Nahuatl text (which is logographic) by a cactus > growing out of a rock. The word itself only refers to > the cactus (not an eagle or a snake). > > With respect to "Te-noch-titlan," I think it's important to acknowledge > that the transcribed place-name refers not to the cactus plant > (nohpal-li), but specifically to its fruit (noch-tli). The eagle (an > avatar of Huitzilopochtli) cues the reader in this respect: reaching > out with one foot, it is about to sink it's big black talons (compare > the rendering of obsidian knife elements in other Codex Mendoza > place-name signs) into one of the cactus fruits (a.k.a. "fruit of the > sun.") One might infer from this that the raptor is about to pluck and > devour the cactus fruit (the snake becomes comparable at this point). > > For more on this subject see: Heyden, Doris. The Eagle, the Cactus, the > Rock: The Roots of Mexico-Tenochtitlan's Foundation Myth and Symbol > British Archaeological Reports International Series 484. Oxford, 1989. > > I hope this is helpful! > > Janice Lynn Robertson, Ph.D. > Art History > > From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Mar 30 20:36:04 2006 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:36:04 -0800 Subject: [Aztlan] searching for book In-Reply-To: <9ad1b6fa0603300508m362cb2b9g70ed37995473f8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Brigitta, I too have that book, and the Aesop's fables are not part of its corpus. I have located the book: *F?BULAS DE ESOPO EN IDIOMA MEXICANO Publicada por el Dr. Antonio Pe?afiel.* And I will be buying the German book that my friend Walter has recommended. Thank you to all who have helped me find this rare gem of colonial Nahuatl expression! mario Birgitta Leander wrote: > I have the book - /Cuentos Ind?genas/ - by Pablo Gonz?lez Casanova in > my private library. It is published by UNAM (Biblioteca de Filolog?a y > Ling??stica Ind?genas) in Mexico in 1946. If you give me some more > specifications about the article you are looking for, I could take a > look for it in the book mentioned by Professor Schwaller. > > Dr Birgitta Leander > Universidad de las Am?ricas, Puebla > > > > On 3/29/06, *micc2* > wrote: > > Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is > entitled: > > "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" > > I have an old photocopy that is very hard to read. I think the > author is Gordon Brotherston and the book is called: > > *Aesop in Mexico: die Fabeln des Aesop in aztektischer Sprache / A > 16th Century Aztec Version of Aesop's Fables, Text mit deutscher > und englischer ?bersetzung, aus dem Nachla? Gerdt Kutschers > herausgegeben von Gordon Brotherston und G?nter Vollmer, 1987, 259 > pp. > > > from: > > > IBERO-AMERIKANISCHES INSTITUT > PREUSSISCHER KULTURBESITZ > > > Can anyone direct me to a copy? (I do not read German so I cannot > find the book using the university's catalog) > * > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Thu Mar 30 20:40:46 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:40:46 CST Subject: [Aztlan] searching for book Message-ID: I had suggested the Gonzalez Casanova not as a the book being sought but rather as a similar work. Thanks to Brigitta for the exact citation. On 30 Mar 2006, micc2 wrote: > Dear Brigitta, > > I too have that book, and the Aesop's fables are not part of its corpus. > > I have located the book: > > *F?BULAS DE ESOPO EN IDIOMA MEXICANO Publicada por el Dr. Antonio Pe?afiel.* > > And I will be buying the German book that my friend Walter has recommended. > > Thank you to all who have helped me find this rare gem of colonial Nahuatl > expression! > > mario > > > > Birgitta Leander wrote: > > I have the book - /Cuentos Ind?genas/ - by Pablo Gonz?lez Casanova in > > my private library. It is published by UNAM (Biblioteca de Filolog?a y > > Ling??stica Ind?genas) in Mexico in 1946. If you give me some more > > specifications about the article you are looking for, I could take a > > look for it in the book mentioned by Professor Schwaller. > > > > Dr Birgitta Leander > > Universidad de las Am?ricas, Puebla > > > > > > > > On 3/29/06, *micc2* > wrote: > > > > Dear colleagues, I am searching for an article in a book that is > > entitled: > > > > "How Aesop Fared in Nahuatl" > > > > I have an old photocopy that is very hard to read. I think the > > author is Gordon Brotherston and the book is called: > > > > *Aesop in Mexico: die Fabeln des Aesop in aztektischer Sprache / A > > 16th Century Aztec Version of Aesop's Fables, Text mit deutscher > > und englischer ?bersetzung, aus dem Nachla? Gerdt Kutschers > > herausgegeben von Gordon Brotherston und G?nter Vollmer, 1987, 259 > > pp. > > > > > > from: > > > > > > IBERO-AMERIKANISCHES INSTITUT > > PREUSSISCHER KULTURBESITZ > > > > > > Can anyone direct me to a copy? (I do not read German so I cannot > > find the book using the university's catalog) > > * > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aztlan mailing list > > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > > > > > John F. Schwaller President - elect SUNY Potsdam Until 6-30-2006: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 Fax 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Mar 31 18:29:57 2006 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:29:57 -0600 Subject: cultural learning strategies Message-ID: Listeros, One of my indigenous students, Manuel de la Cruz, is studying Psychology here in Zacatecas. He has experienced first hand the problems faced by indigenous students who leave their villages (northern Veracruz) for the first time, travel to a primarily mestizo region (Zacatecas) and do their high school and university studies. He would like to do his senior thesis on learning strategies specific to the Nahua culture, in order to educate mestizo teachers and help indigenous students make the transition to the mestizo university environment. Obviously, he will rely heavily on his own experience, as well as that of his fellow students, but he would like to know if anyone on the list can recommend some relevant bibliography. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx