From pthajovs at uchicago.edu Mon May 1 07:33:10 2006 From: pthajovs at uchicago.edu (pthajovs at uchicago.edu) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:33:10 +0700 Subject: Techilnauayo Message-ID: Dear Listserv, This will probably be a breeze for the greybeards out there, but I’m stumped trying to translate one of the items listed as part of the Aztec royal accoutrements in the Primeros Memoriales, pp. 51r-v. This item refers to the border of the royal turquoise-colored tilma, probably to its tenixyo-like decoration. Since the item is part of the attire pertaining to the kings, from Itzcoatl to Cuauhtemoc, the orthography should be clear enough. However, it is spelled several different ways. For now I believe the most accurate transcription should be TECHILNAVAYO, but there are other possibilities, such as TENECHILNAVAYO, TECHILNAVAYA, and TECHILNAUAYO. If my orthography isn’t failing me, –NAVAYO seems to be correct—there seems to be a clear distinction between other U’s and the character (V) in this word. Another interesting point about this word is that it is the only one of the items listed that is not possessed with the 3rd person i- (‘his’). Anyway, there is probably some work out there already about this word and object, but I’m at a loss right now to find it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. To help in this endeavor, I have attached an image of clippings showing the words I’m talking about. Thank you for your help, Patrick Hajovsky Ph.D. Candidate Department of Art History University of Chicago -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: techilnauayo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 194436 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed May 3 19:25:37 2006 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 21:25:37 +0200 Subject: tlachtli and ullamaliztli... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tlachtli is the name of the ballcourt. According to some this could extend to the game itself. Tlachco is tlachtli with the locative ending -co. It means "in the ball court." Ullamalliztli (Nahuatl has no vowel u it is in fact a long o that was written as u, more correctlu it would be spelled ollamaliztli) is the name of game itself. The name of the ball is ullamaloni (ollamaloni). olli is rubber. ollama is the verb meaning "to play rubberball". ollamalistli is the noun derived from above verb meaning rubberballplaying. ollamaloni is the instrument derived from the verb above meaning "that which is used to play ball" Magnus Pharao Hansen Univesity of Copenhagen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Sat May 6 12:28:03 2006 From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 13:28:03 +0100 Subject: tlachtli and ullamaliztli... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you very much, Magnus and Michael, for kindly putting me right on the meaning of the terms associated with the ballgame ­ greatly appreciated. I did, incidentally, try to look up Œtlachtli¹ in Frances Kartunnen¹s ŒAnalytical Dictionary of Náhuatl¹ but couldn¹t find it (or did I look in the wrong place?) Which general purpose reference book would people recommend for these sorts of quick entry-level searches? Best wishes, Ian Mexicolore, London -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun May 7 17:40:33 2006 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 12:40:33 -0500 Subject: Tlachtli Message-ID: Estimado Ian: For individual lexical items Alonso de Molina's 1571 Vocabulario is indispensable; it's available in the Porrua pseudofacsimile (facsimile of a 19th century pseudofacsimile, a close imitation of the original but reset in special typeface) and on CD from Digibis, scanned from the original edition. The Digibis CD, by the way, is a jewel; it has digital facsimiles of nearly all important colonial dictionaries and grammars, plus other useful and interesting texts (Obras Clasicas sobre la Lengua Nahuatl, digital ed., Ascension Hernandez de Leon-Portilla, compiler, Madrid, Fundacion Historica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998). Remi Simeon's Diccionario de la Lengua Nahuatl o Mexicana, from late 19th-century France but available in a more practical Spanish edition from Siglo XXI Editores, expands on Molina, so it's useful for looking for words and morphemes not found in Molina, although his etimological derivations are a bit funky. J. Richard Andrew's vocabulary (now separated from his grammar Introduction to Classical Nahuatl and placed in the companion workbook volume, in the revised 2003 edition) is nice to have at hand, since it restores vowel-length and glottal stops. Frances Karttunen's An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, which you mention, is a must, also restoring occult phonemes and expanding on Andrews' work. Karttunen's dictionary doesn't replace Molina and Simeon, however, since it has far fewer entries. John Bierhorst's work, A Nahuatl-English Dictionary and Concordance to the Cantares Mexicanos also includes the occult phonemes and has a lot of personal and place names. Except for Molina, who has Spanish-Nahuatl and Nahuatl-Spanish sections, the above lexicons are one-way, just Nahuatl-Spanish, so the new and very welcome addition to the list of available dictionaries is Paul de Wolf's comprehensive Diccionario Espanol-Nahuatl (841 pp.), which takes the words from all of the above plus others, restoring glottal stops and long vowels wherever possible. It was published in 2003 by the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico (UNAM) with The Universidad Autonoma de Baja California Sur and the Fideicomiso Teixidor. All of these sources together work very well as a general lexical corpus. There are other sources that are good for more specific inquiries or just for looking up items not found in the others. R. Joe Campbell's A Morphological Dictionary of Classical Nahuatl (1985) is hard to find but very useful, with a thorough treatment of the subtle shades of meaning of each morpheme. Pilar Maynez published El Calepino de Sahagún (UNAM, 2002), extracting all of the Nahuatl words from the Spanish column of the Florentine Codex, defining them and presenting them in context. Pedro de Arenas' Vocabulario Manual de las Lenguas Castellana y Mexicana (1611) is good for everyday phrases in the early Colonial period, like the modern phrase books for tourists; there's a facsimile edition published by the UNAM in 1982 and it's included on the Digibis CD. There are several vocabularies of modern variants of Nahuatl which are useful for finding items that aren't found in the colonial sources, although diachronic phonological changes have to be taken into account. Some are probably still available from the UNAM, the Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia and the Summer Institute of Linguistics Cautionary note: since Nahuatl words usually get embedded in layers of prefixes and suffixes, dictionaries don't work for revealing the meanings of Nahuatl texts unless we dedicate some attention to grammar. There are a lot of grammars; I'll just mention a few. Perhaps a good way to start would be with Lockhart's new edition of Carochi's grammar plus his text Nahuatl as Written, both published by Stanford/UCLA. Andrews' grammar, mentioned above, is very technical but should be at hand as a reference source. R. Joe Campbell's and Frances Karttunen's Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar is great for the beginner, although it's not commercially available; it's a "home-made" photocopy text published at the University of Montana at Missoula. This may be more than you wanted; the idea is that it's a good idea to get as much stuff on the shelf as possible, then get to know it over the years. Saludos, David Wright www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon May 8 13:38:24 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 08:38:24 -0500 Subject: Tlachtli Message-ID: At 12:40 PM 5/7/2006, you wrote: >R. Joe Campbell's and Frances Karttunen's Foundation Course in >Nahuatl Grammar is great for the beginner, although it's not >commercially available; it's a "home-made" photocopy text published >at the University of Montana at Missoula. This book is not available from Montana, and has not been for 5 years. Out of a love and devotion to Nahuatl, Campbell and Karttunen have allowed me to provide copies of their Foundation Course at cost to anyone who requests them. As many of you know I am in transition right now; no copies of the Foundation Course are available. Some time after July 1, the books will be available from my office at SUNY Potsdam. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam schwaljf at potsdam.edu Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From chelodona at argentina.com Mon May 8 17:07:25 2006 From: chelodona at argentina.com (chelodona at argentina.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 14:07:25 -0300 Subject: Indigenous identity Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue May 9 08:28:07 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 04:28:07 -0400 Subject: Huatulco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Any ideas about the etymology of the place name "Huatulco"? It has been suggested that the Hua- was originally Cuauh- 'wood'. -tulco could of course be tol- 'reed' + -co, locative suffix. Tlaxtlahui, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Wed May 10 18:36:55 2006 From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 19:36:55 +0100 Subject: Tlachtli In-Reply-To: <0IYW00CKGP3MZ1@smtp.prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: > Thank you very much indeed, David, for this marvellously comprehensive answer; > I only own the Simeon dictionary and Frances K¹s work, so I¹ve got some saving > up to do...! But you¹ve illuminated the path ahead beautifully. What a great > group this e-list is. > > Very best wishes, > > Ian > Mexicolore, London > > Estimado Ian: > > For individual lexical items Alonso de Molina's 1571 Vocabulario is > indispensable; it's available in the Porrua pseudofacsimile (facsimile of a > 19th century pseudofacsimile, a close imitation of the original but reset in > special typeface) and on CD from Digibis, scanned from the original edition. > The Digibis CD, by the way, is a jewel; it has digital facsimiles of nearly > all important colonial dictionaries and grammars, plus other useful and > interesting texts (Obras Clasicas sobre la Lengua Nahuatl, digital ed., > Ascension Hernandez de Leon-Portilla, compiler, Madrid, Fundacion Historica > Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998). Remi Simeon's Diccionario de la > Lengua Nahuatl o Mexicana, from late 19th-century France but available in a > more practical Spanish edition from Siglo XXI Editores, expands on Molina, so > it's useful for looking for words and morphemes not found in Molina, although > his etimological derivations are a bit funky. J. Richard Andrew's vocabulary > (now separated from his grammar Introduction to Classical Nahuatl and placed > in the companion workbook volume, in the revised 2003 edition) is nice to have > at hand, since it restores vowel-length and glottal stops. Frances Karttunen's > An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, which you mention, is a must, also > restoring occult phonemes and expanding on Andrews' work. Karttunen's > dictionary doesn't replace Molina and Simeon, however, since it has far fewer > entries. John Bierhorst's work, A Nahuatl-English Dictionary and Concordance > to the Cantares Mexicanos also includes the occult phonemes and has a lot of > personal and place names. Except for Molina, who has Spanish-Nahuatl and > Nahuatl-Spanish sections, the above lexicons are one-way, just > Nahuatl-Spanish, so the new and very welcome addition to the list of available > dictionaries is Paul de Wolf's comprehensive Diccionario Espanol-Nahuatl (841 > pp.), which takes the words from all of the above plus others, restoring > glottal stops and long vowels wherever possible. It was published in 2003 by > the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico (UNAM) with The Universidad > Autonoma de Baja California Sur and the Fideicomiso Teixidor. All of these > sources together work very well as a general lexical corpus. > > There are other sources that are good for more specific inquiries or just for > looking up items not found in the others. R. Joe Campbell's A Morphological > Dictionary of Classical Nahuatl (1985) is hard to find but very useful, with a > thorough treatment of the subtle shades of meaning of each morpheme. Pilar > Maynez published El Calepino de Sahagún (UNAM, 2002), extracting all of the > Nahuatl words from the Spanish column of the Florentine Codex, defining them > and presenting them in context. Pedro de Arenas' Vocabulario Manual de las > Lenguas Castellana y Mexicana (1611) is good for everyday phrases in the early > Colonial period, like the modern phrase books for tourists; there's a > facsimile edition published by the UNAM in 1982 and it's included on the > Digibis CD. There are several vocabularies of modern variants of Nahuatl which > are useful for finding items that aren't found in the colonial sources, > although diachronic phonological changes have to be taken into account. Some > are probably still available from the UNAM, the Instituto Nacional de > Antropologia e Historia and the Summer Institute of Linguistics > > Cautionary note: since Nahuatl words usually get embedded in layers of > prefixes and suffixes, dictionaries don't work for revealing the meanings of > Nahuatl texts unless we dedicate some attention to grammar. There are a lot of > grammars; I'll just mention a few. Perhaps a good way to start would be with > Lockhart's new edition of Carochi's grammar plus his text Nahuatl as Written, > both published by Stanford/UCLA. Andrews' grammar, mentioned above, is very > technical but should be at hand as a reference source. R. Joe Campbell's and > Frances Karttunen's Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar is great for the > beginner, although it's not commercially available; it's a "home-made" > photocopy text published at the University of Montana at Missoula. > > This may be more than you wanted; the idea is that it's a good idea to get as > much stuff on the shelf as possible, then get to know it over the years. > > Saludos, > > David Wright > www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From smielke at famsi.org Fri May 12 20:09:30 2006 From: smielke at famsi.org (Sandy Mielke) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:09:30 -0400 Subject: [Nahuatl] Warriors died in cambat Message-ID: >>From Antonio Aimi: Hola listeros, do you know if the warriors died in cambat had a specific name like the one of the cihuateteo ? Gracias Antonio _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sat May 13 05:36:10 2006 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 06:36:10 +0100 Subject: [Nahuatl] Warriors died in cambat In-Reply-To: <00ae01c675ff$fad54930$2701a8c0@SandyM> Message-ID: --- Sandy Mielke wrote: > > From Antonio Aimi: > Hola listeros, > do you know if the warriors died in cambat had a specific name like > the one of the cihuateteo? Gracias, Antonio The Vikings in Scandinavia believed that anyone who died in battle went to the home of their gods and became a member of an armed force called the Einherjar (j = "y" as in "yet"), which more or less mean "those who are [now] all in the same army". Did the Aztecs have such a belief? Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From s.levack at dsl.pipex.com Sat May 13 08:50:11 2006 From: s.levack at dsl.pipex.com (Simon Levack) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:50:11 +0100 Subject: [Nahuatl] Warriors died in cambat In-Reply-To: <20060513053610.31216.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Among the Mexica, at least, the belief was that warriors who died in combat or were sacrificed escorted the Sun in the morning (the privilege of escorting the Sun in the afternoon was reserved to their female counterparts, women who died in childbirth) Then the warriors were reincarnated as hummingbirds or butterflies. I'd be intrigued to know the answer to Antonio's question, though. I've not come across a specific name. The Cihuateteo were believed to come back and haunt their menfolk (you can see their point!) and so were objects of particular fear and reverence, and I suppose their name reflects that. Simon Levack Author of the Aztec Mysteries DEMON OF THE AIR *Winner of the Debut Dagger Award* *Library Journal Best Genre Fiction of 2005* SHADOW OF THE LORDS CITY OF SPIES Please take a few moments to visit my website at www.simonlevack.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD Sent: 13 May 2006 05:36 To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Nahuatl] Warriors died in cambat --- Sandy Mielke wrote: > > From Antonio Aimi: > Hola listeros, > do you know if the warriors died in cambat had a specific name like > the one of the cihuateteo? Gracias, Antonio The Vikings in Scandinavia believed that anyone who died in battle went to the home of their gods and became a member of an armed force called the Einherjar (j = "y" as in "yet"), which more or less mean "those who are [now] all in the same army". Did the Aztecs have such a belief? Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From s.levack at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 14 19:28:55 2006 From: s.levack at dsl.pipex.com (Simon Levack) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 20:28:55 +0100 Subject: [Nahuatl] Warriors died in cambat In-Reply-To: <20060513203806.50052.qmail@web33713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: juice taps wrote: > Dear Simon can you provide us with your source in refrence to the > scarificing of warriors. In addittion I hope the source is a primary > source. > > tlazohcamati*/ > /* The Florentine Codex has a number of references to the sacrificing of warriors; see, for example, Book 2, Ch. 21 for a detailed description of the 'gladiatorial' ritual of Tlacaxipehualiztli. For the fate after death of those both killed in battle and sacrificed (the latter alluded to by reference to chalk and down feathers) see Book 6, Ch 3. Simon Levack Author of the Aztec Mysteries DEMON OF THE AIR *Winner of the Debut Dagger Award* *Library Journal Best Genre Fiction of the Year* SHADOW OF THE LORDS CITY OF SPIES _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Tue May 16 19:47:38 2006 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:47:38 -0700 Subject: ihtoa, itohtia, etc. Message-ID: Hello to all, I ran this question by the list about five or so years ago, and it provided an interesting conversation. I thought I had saved all of the correspondence, and either I lost it, or I did not save it. But now with five years of new research, and hopefully new members to pick their tzontecomitl here goes: Is there a relationship between "ihtoa:"- to speak, and "ihto:tia" - to dance? i realize that the long O in ihto:tia is a problem, but it appears to me that there might be, could be, (I want it to be so bad!) a relationship between the two. When one looks at mihtoa "se dice" and mihto:tia "se baila" it looks even more connected...except for that selfish little long o in the middle of ihto:tia.... I would like to posit that "ihto:tia" - to dance means to cause to be said mo + ihto:tia "se hace decir" (through body movement) and thus may have represented the spiritual or religious dancing of the past (which would have included state sponsored rituals and perhaps even then use of hallucinogenics). I further theorize that the second verb for dance "macehua" (and forgive me if I do not know if it has any long vowels) signified the everyday dances of the commoners. Some examples would be a ballet at the Met , or a choreography at a fourth of July banquet at the White house, or a Papal mass that included dancing (which of course we would consider very odd now a days) Examples of the "macehua" dancing would be cumbia, quebradita, merengue, the aiky brakey heart, and of course the electric slide. I know, the vowel length makes it look like I am skating on thin cetl. Sort of like caro and carro in Spanish ¿que no? mario -- I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality. "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz www.mexicayotl.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed May 17 15:01:11 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:01:11 -0400 Subject: ihtoa, itohtia, etc. Message-ID: Dear Mario, [Please excuse my double copy to you -- I discovered this morning that I had failed to send a copy to Nahuat-l last night.] When I first heard my linguistics professor introduce the notion of morphemes, using the hamburger as a metaphor, it caught my imagination -- a hamburger has two parts: bun and ground beef. And morphemes have two aspects: sound and meaning. Obviously, since the bun is split and sound is not split to embrace the meaning, the metaphor doesn't work out very well. Maybe if we thought of a penny being analogous to the morpheme unit, having two aspects: head and tail. But since the metaphor doesn't carry us anywhere, it's not worth much. All metaphors (and their dangers) aside, morphological analysis, the identification of word parts and their variants, while it may not qualify as a real science, has to go by some science-like rules. Some morphemes have variant forms, but we ascribe their variations to something other than their essence. An example: na:ntli mother na:yo:tl motherhood We think that the morpheme is ; we assume that the morpheme occurs in both words, but that its form is altered in the second by a process that *tends* to cause /n/ to delete before /y/ and /w/ -- *tends* because "na:yo:tl" occurs in free variation with "na:nyo:tl" (i.e., both forms occur, just as "eight years" is pronounced variably as [eityirz] and [eichyirz]). The simplest rule that guides us when trying to decide whether two strings of sound ("word parts") are tokens of the same morpheme is whether the answer to each of the following questions is YES: 1) are they related in meaning? 2) are they similar in sound? (and our judgement on "similar" has to be careful -- sort of like the referee in a basketball game -- "similar" and "not similar (enough)" get an equal shake in this game) Consider the words "prince" and "princeling". Since they share the "prince" part in form, we ask ourselves what the meaning of the "-ling" is. Obviously, "-ling" is some sort of diminutive suffix, given our knowledge that a "princeling" is a little prince. Every time we "discover" (assuming that our activity involves the search for some kind of *truth* and not *invention*) a morpheme, it is reasonable to look for other occurrences of it, so we pick up and examine the word "boiling". It has the same sound chunk "-ling" that we found in "princeling" and the remaining part is "boi" or "boy", where the difference in spelling is irrelevant (i.e., both sequences of letters represent the same sounds). Do we claim that *this* "-ling" piece is the same morpheme as the one we found in "princeling"? Of course not, since "boiling" has no diminutive meaning in it, any more than it refers to a small male human. The example failed the test of meaning -- when we find identical sequences of sounds, we're not done; we have to satisfy *both* conditions. Mario, I feel a strong sympathy for your desire to reduce the inventory of morphemes by relating "ihtoa:" and "ihto:tia:". After all, relating things that are not obviously related is one of the main goals of science. However, since meaning/semantics is a delicate area, I think your cetl (as you mentioned) is much more tila:huac if we don't stretch meaning too far -- and I am too cautious to walk on it. |8-) One further point: aside from the selfish little o/o: difference, if "ihto:tia:" is a causative on "ihtoa:", this may be a problem in the general causative verb morphology of Nahuatl -- "ihtoa:" is not really a morpheme (i.e., it is not basic); it is derived by causative derivation from "ihtahui". Other examples: Intransitive Causative ihzolihui ihzoloa: nelihui neloa: pachihui pachoa: polihui poloa: ihtlacahui ihtlacoa: nechicahui nechicoa: pixahui pixoa: Iztayohmeh, Joe Quoting micc2 : > Is there a relationship between "ihtoa:"- to speak, and "ihto:tia" - > to dance? i realize that the long O in ihto:tia is a problem, but it > appears to me that > there might be, could be, (I want it to be so bad!) a relationship > between the two. > > When one looks at mihtoa "se dice" and mihto:tia "se baila" it looks > even more connected...except for that selfish little long o in the > middle of ihto:tia.... > > I would like to posit that "ihto:tia" - to dance means to cause to be > said mo + ihto:tia "se hace decir" (through body movement) and thus > may have represented the spiritual or religious dancing of the past > (which would have included state sponsored rituals and perhaps even > then use of hallucinogenics). > > I further theorize that the second verb for dance "macehua" (and > forgive me if I do not know if it has any long vowels) signified the > everyday dances of the commoners. > > Some examples would be a ballet at the Met , or a choreography at a > fourth of July banquet at the White house, or a Papal mass that > included dancing (which of course we would consider very odd now a > days) > > Examples of the "macehua" dancing would be cumbia, quebradita, > merengue, the aiky brakey heart, and of course the electric slide. > > I know, the vowel length makes it look like I am skating on thin > cetl. Sort of like caro and carro in Spanish �que no? > > mario > > -- > I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality. > > "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz > www.mexicayotl.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun May 21 16:51:12 2006 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 11:51:12 -0500 Subject: Schools Message-ID: Estimados listeros: I've long wondered about how accumulated knowledge of Nahuatl grammar was transmited over the years, particularly during the 20th century. I know that Mexican priest and scholar Angel Maria Garibay Kintana was a pioneer and I think I read somewhere that he taught Miguel Leon-Portilla and Thelma Sullivan. Francisco Horcasitas must fit in here somewhere. North of the border several people dabbled in Nahuatl in the 19th century and early 20th centuries, but it seems that Arthur Anderson played an important role in digging in deeper and teaching others. J. Richard Andrews is obviously a key figure, taking full advantage of the phonological and grammatical precision to be found in Carochi's Arte of 1645. His influence is obvious in the grammars and dictionaries of Frances Karttunen and R. Joe Campbell, the pillars of this list. James Lockhart fits in here somewhere and seems to have taught some of the people now publishing translations of old Nahuatl texts. I don't know any of these scholars personally, so I don't have a handle on their relative ages to see the generational perspective. Can anybody out there help me put the pieces together to see some sort of family tree of mentors and disciples? I'm particularly interested in any possible connection between the mid-20th century school of nahuatlatos in Mexico City and the people working in the US. The European school, whose flowering can be seen on Marc Thouvenot's SUP-INFOR website, is another matter, and any data on it would also be most welcome. Saludos, David Wright www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From villas at nyphotostudio.com Sun May 21 22:53:11 2006 From: villas at nyphotostudio.com (villas) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 18:53:11 -0400 Subject: Schools In-Reply-To: <0IZM00HK7K5C8Y@smtp.prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: Lets not forget Robert H Barrow. http://www.hawaii.edu/jcf/Escritos/charlotescritosapp.html marcos On May 21, 2006, at 12:51 PM, David Wright wrote: > Estimados listeros: >   > I've long wondered about how accumulated knowledge of Nahuatl grammar > was transmited over the years, particularly during the 20th century. I > know that Mexican priest and scholar Angel Maria Garibay Kintana was a > pioneer and I think I read somewhere that he taught Miguel > Leon-Portilla and Thelma Sullivan. Francisco Horcasitas must fit in > here somewhere. North of the border several people dabbled in Nahuatl > in the 19th century and early 20th centuries, but it seems that Arthur > Anderson played an important role in digging in deeper and teaching > others. J. Richard Andrews is obviously a key figure, taking full > advantage of the phonological and grammatical precision to be found in > Carochi's Arte of 1645. His influence is obvious in the grammars and > dictionaries of Frances Karttunen and R. Joe Campbell, the pillars of > this list. James Lockhart fits in here somewhere and seems to have > taught some of the people now publishing translations of old Nahuatl > texts. I don't know any of these scholars personally, so I don't have > a handle on their relative ages to see the generational perspective. > Can anybody out there help me put the pieces together to see some sort > of family tree of mentors and disciples? I'm particularly interested > in any possible connection between the mid-20th century school of > nahuatlatos in Mexico City and the people working in the US. The > European school, whose flowering can be seen on Marc Thouvenot's > SUP-INFOR website, is another matter, and any data on it would also be > most welcome. >   > Saludos, >   > David Wright > www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright >  _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From bortiz at earthlink.net Mon May 22 04:27:00 2006 From: bortiz at earthlink.net (bernard Ortiz de Montellano) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 00:27:00 -0400 Subject: Schools Message-ID: Garibay also taught Charles Dibble Bernard -----Original Message----- >From: villas >Sent: May 21, 2006 6:53 PM >To: David Wright >Cc: "Nahuat-l (messages)" >Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Schools > >Lets not forget Robert H Barrow. >http://www.hawaii.edu/jcf/Escritos/charlotescritosapp.html >marcos >On May 21, 2006, at 12:51 PM, David Wright wrote: > >> Estimados listeros: >> � >> I've long wondered about how accumulated knowledge of Nahuatl grammar >> was transmited over the years, particularly during the 20th century. I >> know that Mexican priest and scholar Angel Maria Garibay Kintana was a >> pioneer and I think�I read somewhere that he taught�Miguel >> Leon-Portilla and Thelma Sullivan. Francisco Horcasitas must fit in >> here somewhere. North of the border several people dabbled in Nahuatl >> in the 19th century and early 20th centuries, but it seems that Arthur >> Anderson played an important role in digging in deeper and teaching >> others. J. Richard Andrews is obviously a key figure, taking full >> advantage of the phonological and grammatical precision to be found in >> Carochi's Arte of 1645. His influence is obvious in the grammars and >> dictionaries of Frances Karttunen and R. Joe Campbell, the pillars of >> this list. James Lockhart fits in here somewhere and seems to have >> taught some of the people now publishing translations of old Nahuatl >> texts. I don't know any of these scholars personally, so I don't have >> a handle on their relative ages to see the generational perspective. >> Can anybody out there help me put the pieces together to see some sort >> of family tree of mentors and disciples? I'm particularly interested >> in any possible connection between the mid-20th century school of >> nahuatlatos in Mexico City and the people working in the US. The >> European school, whose flowering can be seen on Marc Thouvenot's >> SUP-INFOR website, is another matter, and any data on it would also be >> most welcome. >> � >> Saludos, >> � >> David Wright >> www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright >> �_______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >_______________________________________________ >Nahuatl mailing list >Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Wed May 24 10:28:31 2006 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 06:28:31 -0400 Subject: Podcast: Rethinking Malinche Message-ID: A podcast of my essay "Rethinking Malinche" from the book Indian Women of Early Mexico is available at the following site: http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com/podcast/mujer.html Many thanks to Grinnell College for making its recording facility available to me in preparing for this podcast and to Joseph Puentes for putting it up on his site. Frances Karttunen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From pthajovs at uchicago.edu Mon May 1 07:33:10 2006 From: pthajovs at uchicago.edu (pthajovs at uchicago.edu) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:33:10 +0700 Subject: Techilnauayo Message-ID: Dear Listserv, This will probably be a breeze for the greybeards out there, but I?m stumped trying to translate one of the items listed as part of the Aztec royal accoutrements in the Primeros Memoriales, pp. 51r-v. This item refers to the border of the royal turquoise-colored tilma, probably to its tenixyo-like decoration. Since the item is part of the attire pertaining to the kings, from Itzcoatl to Cuauhtemoc, the orthography should be clear enough. However, it is spelled several different ways. For now I believe the most accurate transcription should be TECHILNAVAYO, but there are other possibilities, such as TENECHILNAVAYO, TECHILNAVAYA, and TECHILNAUAYO. If my orthography isn?t failing me, ?NAVAYO seems to be correct?there seems to be a clear distinction between other U?s and the character (V) in this word. Another interesting point about this word is that it is the only one of the items listed that is not possessed with the 3rd person i- (?his?). Anyway, there is probably some work out there already about this word and object, but I?m at a loss right now to find it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. To help in this endeavor, I have attached an image of clippings showing the words I?m talking about. Thank you for your help, Patrick Hajovsky Ph.D. Candidate Department of Art History University of Chicago -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: techilnauayo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 194436 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed May 3 19:25:37 2006 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 21:25:37 +0200 Subject: tlachtli and ullamaliztli... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tlachtli is the name of the ballcourt. According to some this could extend to the game itself. Tlachco is tlachtli with the locative ending -co. It means "in the ball court." Ullamalliztli (Nahuatl has no vowel u it is in fact a long o that was written as u, more correctlu it would be spelled ollamaliztli) is the name of game itself. The name of the ball is ullamaloni (ollamaloni). olli is rubber. ollama is the verb meaning "to play rubberball". ollamalistli is the noun derived from above verb meaning rubberballplaying. ollamaloni is the instrument derived from the verb above meaning "that which is used to play ball" Magnus Pharao Hansen Univesity of Copenhagen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Sat May 6 12:28:03 2006 From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 13:28:03 +0100 Subject: tlachtli and ullamaliztli... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you very much, Magnus and Michael, for kindly putting me right on the meaning of the terms associated with the ballgame ? greatly appreciated. I did, incidentally, try to look up ?tlachtli? in Frances Kartunnen?s ?Analytical Dictionary of N?huatl? but couldn?t find it (or did I look in the wrong place?) Which general purpose reference book would people recommend for these sorts of quick entry-level searches? Best wishes, Ian Mexicolore, London -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun May 7 17:40:33 2006 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 12:40:33 -0500 Subject: Tlachtli Message-ID: Estimado Ian: For individual lexical items Alonso de Molina's 1571 Vocabulario is indispensable; it's available in the Porrua pseudofacsimile (facsimile of a 19th century pseudofacsimile, a close imitation of the original but reset in special typeface) and on CD from Digibis, scanned from the original edition. The Digibis CD, by the way, is a jewel; it has digital facsimiles of nearly all important colonial dictionaries and grammars, plus other useful and interesting texts (Obras Clasicas sobre la Lengua Nahuatl, digital ed., Ascension Hernandez de Leon-Portilla, compiler, Madrid, Fundacion Historica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998). Remi Simeon's Diccionario de la Lengua Nahuatl o Mexicana, from late 19th-century France but available in a more practical Spanish edition from Siglo XXI Editores, expands on Molina, so it's useful for looking for words and morphemes not found in Molina, although his etimological derivations are a bit funky. J. Richard Andrew's vocabulary (now separated from his grammar Introduction to Classical Nahuatl and placed in the companion workbook volume, in the revised 2003 edition) is nice to have at hand, since it restores vowel-length and glottal stops. Frances Karttunen's An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, which you mention, is a must, also restoring occult phonemes and expanding on Andrews' work. Karttunen's dictionary doesn't replace Molina and Simeon, however, since it has far fewer entries. John Bierhorst's work, A Nahuatl-English Dictionary and Concordance to the Cantares Mexicanos also includes the occult phonemes and has a lot of personal and place names. Except for Molina, who has Spanish-Nahuatl and Nahuatl-Spanish sections, the above lexicons are one-way, just Nahuatl-Spanish, so the new and very welcome addition to the list of available dictionaries is Paul de Wolf's comprehensive Diccionario Espanol-Nahuatl (841 pp.), which takes the words from all of the above plus others, restoring glottal stops and long vowels wherever possible. It was published in 2003 by the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico (UNAM) with The Universidad Autonoma de Baja California Sur and the Fideicomiso Teixidor. All of these sources together work very well as a general lexical corpus. There are other sources that are good for more specific inquiries or just for looking up items not found in the others. R. Joe Campbell's A Morphological Dictionary of Classical Nahuatl (1985) is hard to find but very useful, with a thorough treatment of the subtle shades of meaning of each morpheme. Pilar Maynez published El Calepino de Sahag?n (UNAM, 2002), extracting all of the Nahuatl words from the Spanish column of the Florentine Codex, defining them and presenting them in context. Pedro de Arenas' Vocabulario Manual de las Lenguas Castellana y Mexicana (1611) is good for everyday phrases in the early Colonial period, like the modern phrase books for tourists; there's a facsimile edition published by the UNAM in 1982 and it's included on the Digibis CD. There are several vocabularies of modern variants of Nahuatl which are useful for finding items that aren't found in the colonial sources, although diachronic phonological changes have to be taken into account. Some are probably still available from the UNAM, the Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia and the Summer Institute of Linguistics Cautionary note: since Nahuatl words usually get embedded in layers of prefixes and suffixes, dictionaries don't work for revealing the meanings of Nahuatl texts unless we dedicate some attention to grammar. There are a lot of grammars; I'll just mention a few. Perhaps a good way to start would be with Lockhart's new edition of Carochi's grammar plus his text Nahuatl as Written, both published by Stanford/UCLA. Andrews' grammar, mentioned above, is very technical but should be at hand as a reference source. R. Joe Campbell's and Frances Karttunen's Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar is great for the beginner, although it's not commercially available; it's a "home-made" photocopy text published at the University of Montana at Missoula. This may be more than you wanted; the idea is that it's a good idea to get as much stuff on the shelf as possible, then get to know it over the years. Saludos, David Wright www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon May 8 13:38:24 2006 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 08:38:24 -0500 Subject: Tlachtli Message-ID: At 12:40 PM 5/7/2006, you wrote: >R. Joe Campbell's and Frances Karttunen's Foundation Course in >Nahuatl Grammar is great for the beginner, although it's not >commercially available; it's a "home-made" photocopy text published >at the University of Montana at Missoula. This book is not available from Montana, and has not been for 5 years. Out of a love and devotion to Nahuatl, Campbell and Karttunen have allowed me to provide copies of their Foundation Course at cost to anyone who requests them. As many of you know I am in transition right now; no copies of the Foundation Course are available. Some time after July 1, the books will be available from my office at SUNY Potsdam. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam schwaljf at potsdam.edu Until 6-30-06: University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From chelodona at argentina.com Mon May 8 17:07:25 2006 From: chelodona at argentina.com (chelodona at argentina.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 14:07:25 -0300 Subject: Indigenous identity Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue May 9 08:28:07 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 04:28:07 -0400 Subject: Huatulco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Any ideas about the etymology of the place name "Huatulco"? It has been suggested that the Hua- was originally Cuauh- 'wood'. -tulco could of course be tol- 'reed' + -co, locative suffix. Tlaxtlahui, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Wed May 10 18:36:55 2006 From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 19:36:55 +0100 Subject: Tlachtli In-Reply-To: <0IYW00CKGP3MZ1@smtp.prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: > Thank you very much indeed, David, for this marvellously comprehensive answer; > I only own the Simeon dictionary and Frances K?s work, so I?ve got some saving > up to do...! But you?ve illuminated the path ahead beautifully. What a great > group this e-list is. > > Very best wishes, > > Ian > Mexicolore, London > > Estimado Ian: > > For individual lexical items Alonso de Molina's 1571 Vocabulario is > indispensable; it's available in the Porrua pseudofacsimile (facsimile of a > 19th century pseudofacsimile, a close imitation of the original but reset in > special typeface) and on CD from Digibis, scanned from the original edition. > The Digibis CD, by the way, is a jewel; it has digital facsimiles of nearly > all important colonial dictionaries and grammars, plus other useful and > interesting texts (Obras Clasicas sobre la Lengua Nahuatl, digital ed., > Ascension Hernandez de Leon-Portilla, compiler, Madrid, Fundacion Historica > Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998). Remi Simeon's Diccionario de la > Lengua Nahuatl o Mexicana, from late 19th-century France but available in a > more practical Spanish edition from Siglo XXI Editores, expands on Molina, so > it's useful for looking for words and morphemes not found in Molina, although > his etimological derivations are a bit funky. J. Richard Andrew's vocabulary > (now separated from his grammar Introduction to Classical Nahuatl and placed > in the companion workbook volume, in the revised 2003 edition) is nice to have > at hand, since it restores vowel-length and glottal stops. Frances Karttunen's > An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, which you mention, is a must, also > restoring occult phonemes and expanding on Andrews' work. Karttunen's > dictionary doesn't replace Molina and Simeon, however, since it has far fewer > entries. John Bierhorst's work, A Nahuatl-English Dictionary and Concordance > to the Cantares Mexicanos also includes the occult phonemes and has a lot of > personal and place names. Except for Molina, who has Spanish-Nahuatl and > Nahuatl-Spanish sections, the above lexicons are one-way, just > Nahuatl-Spanish, so the new and very welcome addition to the list of available > dictionaries is Paul de Wolf's comprehensive Diccionario Espanol-Nahuatl (841 > pp.), which takes the words from all of the above plus others, restoring > glottal stops and long vowels wherever possible. It was published in 2003 by > the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico (UNAM) with The Universidad > Autonoma de Baja California Sur and the Fideicomiso Teixidor. All of these > sources together work very well as a general lexical corpus. > > There are other sources that are good for more specific inquiries or just for > looking up items not found in the others. R. Joe Campbell's A Morphological > Dictionary of Classical Nahuatl (1985) is hard to find but very useful, with a > thorough treatment of the subtle shades of meaning of each morpheme. Pilar > Maynez published El Calepino de Sahag?n (UNAM, 2002), extracting all of the > Nahuatl words from the Spanish column of the Florentine Codex, defining them > and presenting them in context. Pedro de Arenas' Vocabulario Manual de las > Lenguas Castellana y Mexicana (1611) is good for everyday phrases in the early > Colonial period, like the modern phrase books for tourists; there's a > facsimile edition published by the UNAM in 1982 and it's included on the > Digibis CD. There are several vocabularies of modern variants of Nahuatl which > are useful for finding items that aren't found in the colonial sources, > although diachronic phonological changes have to be taken into account. Some > are probably still available from the UNAM, the Instituto Nacional de > Antropologia e Historia and the Summer Institute of Linguistics > > Cautionary note: since Nahuatl words usually get embedded in layers of > prefixes and suffixes, dictionaries don't work for revealing the meanings of > Nahuatl texts unless we dedicate some attention to grammar. There are a lot of > grammars; I'll just mention a few. Perhaps a good way to start would be with > Lockhart's new edition of Carochi's grammar plus his text Nahuatl as Written, > both published by Stanford/UCLA. Andrews' grammar, mentioned above, is very > technical but should be at hand as a reference source. R. Joe Campbell's and > Frances Karttunen's Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar is great for the > beginner, although it's not commercially available; it's a "home-made" > photocopy text published at the University of Montana at Missoula. > > This may be more than you wanted; the idea is that it's a good idea to get as > much stuff on the shelf as possible, then get to know it over the years. > > Saludos, > > David Wright > www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From smielke at famsi.org Fri May 12 20:09:30 2006 From: smielke at famsi.org (Sandy Mielke) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:09:30 -0400 Subject: [Nahuatl] Warriors died in cambat Message-ID: >>From Antonio Aimi: Hola listeros, do you know if the warriors died in cambat had a specific name like the one of the cihuateteo ? Gracias Antonio _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sat May 13 05:36:10 2006 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 06:36:10 +0100 Subject: [Nahuatl] Warriors died in cambat In-Reply-To: <00ae01c675ff$fad54930$2701a8c0@SandyM> Message-ID: --- Sandy Mielke wrote: > > From Antonio Aimi: > Hola listeros, > do you know if the warriors died in cambat had a specific name like > the one of the cihuateteo? Gracias, Antonio The Vikings in Scandinavia believed that anyone who died in battle went to the home of their gods and became a member of an armed force called the Einherjar (j = "y" as in "yet"), which more or less mean "those who are [now] all in the same army". Did the Aztecs have such a belief? Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From s.levack at dsl.pipex.com Sat May 13 08:50:11 2006 From: s.levack at dsl.pipex.com (Simon Levack) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:50:11 +0100 Subject: [Nahuatl] Warriors died in cambat In-Reply-To: <20060513053610.31216.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Among the Mexica, at least, the belief was that warriors who died in combat or were sacrificed escorted the Sun in the morning (the privilege of escorting the Sun in the afternoon was reserved to their female counterparts, women who died in childbirth) Then the warriors were reincarnated as hummingbirds or butterflies. I'd be intrigued to know the answer to Antonio's question, though. I've not come across a specific name. The Cihuateteo were believed to come back and haunt their menfolk (you can see their point!) and so were objects of particular fear and reverence, and I suppose their name reflects that. Simon Levack Author of the Aztec Mysteries DEMON OF THE AIR *Winner of the Debut Dagger Award* *Library Journal Best Genre Fiction of 2005* SHADOW OF THE LORDS CITY OF SPIES Please take a few moments to visit my website at www.simonlevack.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD Sent: 13 May 2006 05:36 To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Nahuatl] Warriors died in cambat --- Sandy Mielke wrote: > > From Antonio Aimi: > Hola listeros, > do you know if the warriors died in cambat had a specific name like > the one of the cihuateteo? Gracias, Antonio The Vikings in Scandinavia believed that anyone who died in battle went to the home of their gods and became a member of an armed force called the Einherjar (j = "y" as in "yet"), which more or less mean "those who are [now] all in the same army". Did the Aztecs have such a belief? Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From s.levack at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 14 19:28:55 2006 From: s.levack at dsl.pipex.com (Simon Levack) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 20:28:55 +0100 Subject: [Nahuatl] Warriors died in cambat In-Reply-To: <20060513203806.50052.qmail@web33713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: juice taps wrote: > Dear Simon can you provide us with your source in refrence to the > scarificing of warriors. In addittion I hope the source is a primary > source. > > tlazohcamati*/ > /* The Florentine Codex has a number of references to the sacrificing of warriors; see, for example, Book 2, Ch. 21 for a detailed description of the 'gladiatorial' ritual of Tlacaxipehualiztli. For the fate after death of those both killed in battle and sacrificed (the latter alluded to by reference to chalk and down feathers) see Book 6, Ch 3. Simon Levack Author of the Aztec Mysteries DEMON OF THE AIR *Winner of the Debut Dagger Award* *Library Journal Best Genre Fiction of the Year* SHADOW OF THE LORDS CITY OF SPIES _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Tue May 16 19:47:38 2006 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:47:38 -0700 Subject: ihtoa, itohtia, etc. Message-ID: Hello to all, I ran this question by the list about five or so years ago, and it provided an interesting conversation. I thought I had saved all of the correspondence, and either I lost it, or I did not save it. But now with five years of new research, and hopefully new members to pick their tzontecomitl here goes: Is there a relationship between "ihtoa:"- to speak, and "ihto:tia" - to dance? i realize that the long O in ihto:tia is a problem, but it appears to me that there might be, could be, (I want it to be so bad!) a relationship between the two. When one looks at mihtoa "se dice" and mihto:tia "se baila" it looks even more connected...except for that selfish little long o in the middle of ihto:tia.... I would like to posit that "ihto:tia" - to dance means to cause to be said mo + ihto:tia "se hace decir" (through body movement) and thus may have represented the spiritual or religious dancing of the past (which would have included state sponsored rituals and perhaps even then use of hallucinogenics). I further theorize that the second verb for dance "macehua" (and forgive me if I do not know if it has any long vowels) signified the everyday dances of the commoners. Some examples would be a ballet at the Met , or a choreography at a fourth of July banquet at the White house, or a Papal mass that included dancing (which of course we would consider very odd now a days) Examples of the "macehua" dancing would be cumbia, quebradita, merengue, the aiky brakey heart, and of course the electric slide. I know, the vowel length makes it look like I am skating on thin cetl. Sort of like caro and carro in Spanish ?que no? mario -- I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality. "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz www.mexicayotl.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed May 17 15:01:11 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:01:11 -0400 Subject: ihtoa, itohtia, etc. Message-ID: Dear Mario, [Please excuse my double copy to you -- I discovered this morning that I had failed to send a copy to Nahuat-l last night.] When I first heard my linguistics professor introduce the notion of morphemes, using the hamburger as a metaphor, it caught my imagination -- a hamburger has two parts: bun and ground beef. And morphemes have two aspects: sound and meaning. Obviously, since the bun is split and sound is not split to embrace the meaning, the metaphor doesn't work out very well. Maybe if we thought of a penny being analogous to the morpheme unit, having two aspects: head and tail. But since the metaphor doesn't carry us anywhere, it's not worth much. All metaphors (and their dangers) aside, morphological analysis, the identification of word parts and their variants, while it may not qualify as a real science, has to go by some science-like rules. Some morphemes have variant forms, but we ascribe their variations to something other than their essence. An example: na:ntli mother na:yo:tl motherhood We think that the morpheme is ; we assume that the morpheme occurs in both words, but that its form is altered in the second by a process that *tends* to cause /n/ to delete before /y/ and /w/ -- *tends* because "na:yo:tl" occurs in free variation with "na:nyo:tl" (i.e., both forms occur, just as "eight years" is pronounced variably as [eityirz] and [eichyirz]). The simplest rule that guides us when trying to decide whether two strings of sound ("word parts") are tokens of the same morpheme is whether the answer to each of the following questions is YES: 1) are they related in meaning? 2) are they similar in sound? (and our judgement on "similar" has to be careful -- sort of like the referee in a basketball game -- "similar" and "not similar (enough)" get an equal shake in this game) Consider the words "prince" and "princeling". Since they share the "prince" part in form, we ask ourselves what the meaning of the "-ling" is. Obviously, "-ling" is some sort of diminutive suffix, given our knowledge that a "princeling" is a little prince. Every time we "discover" (assuming that our activity involves the search for some kind of *truth* and not *invention*) a morpheme, it is reasonable to look for other occurrences of it, so we pick up and examine the word "boiling". It has the same sound chunk "-ling" that we found in "princeling" and the remaining part is "boi" or "boy", where the difference in spelling is irrelevant (i.e., both sequences of letters represent the same sounds). Do we claim that *this* "-ling" piece is the same morpheme as the one we found in "princeling"? Of course not, since "boiling" has no diminutive meaning in it, any more than it refers to a small male human. The example failed the test of meaning -- when we find identical sequences of sounds, we're not done; we have to satisfy *both* conditions. Mario, I feel a strong sympathy for your desire to reduce the inventory of morphemes by relating "ihtoa:" and "ihto:tia:". After all, relating things that are not obviously related is one of the main goals of science. However, since meaning/semantics is a delicate area, I think your cetl (as you mentioned) is much more tila:huac if we don't stretch meaning too far -- and I am too cautious to walk on it. |8-) One further point: aside from the selfish little o/o: difference, if "ihto:tia:" is a causative on "ihtoa:", this may be a problem in the general causative verb morphology of Nahuatl -- "ihtoa:" is not really a morpheme (i.e., it is not basic); it is derived by causative derivation from "ihtahui". Other examples: Intransitive Causative ihzolihui ihzoloa: nelihui neloa: pachihui pachoa: polihui poloa: ihtlacahui ihtlacoa: nechicahui nechicoa: pixahui pixoa: Iztayohmeh, Joe Quoting micc2 : > Is there a relationship between "ihtoa:"- to speak, and "ihto:tia" - > to dance? i realize that the long O in ihto:tia is a problem, but it > appears to me that > there might be, could be, (I want it to be so bad!) a relationship > between the two. > > When one looks at mihtoa "se dice" and mihto:tia "se baila" it looks > even more connected...except for that selfish little long o in the > middle of ihto:tia.... > > I would like to posit that "ihto:tia" - to dance means to cause to be > said mo + ihto:tia "se hace decir" (through body movement) and thus > may have represented the spiritual or religious dancing of the past > (which would have included state sponsored rituals and perhaps even > then use of hallucinogenics). > > I further theorize that the second verb for dance "macehua" (and > forgive me if I do not know if it has any long vowels) signified the > everyday dances of the commoners. > > Some examples would be a ballet at the Met , or a choreography at a > fourth of July banquet at the White house, or a Papal mass that > included dancing (which of course we would consider very odd now a > days) > > Examples of the "macehua" dancing would be cumbia, quebradita, > merengue, the aiky brakey heart, and of course the electric slide. > > I know, the vowel length makes it look like I am skating on thin > cetl. Sort of like caro and carro in Spanish ?que no? > > mario > > -- > I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality. > > "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz > www.mexicayotl.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun May 21 16:51:12 2006 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 11:51:12 -0500 Subject: Schools Message-ID: Estimados listeros: I've long wondered about how accumulated knowledge of Nahuatl grammar was transmited over the years, particularly during the 20th century. I know that Mexican priest and scholar Angel Maria Garibay Kintana was a pioneer and I think I read somewhere that he taught Miguel Leon-Portilla and Thelma Sullivan. Francisco Horcasitas must fit in here somewhere. North of the border several people dabbled in Nahuatl in the 19th century and early 20th centuries, but it seems that Arthur Anderson played an important role in digging in deeper and teaching others. J. Richard Andrews is obviously a key figure, taking full advantage of the phonological and grammatical precision to be found in Carochi's Arte of 1645. His influence is obvious in the grammars and dictionaries of Frances Karttunen and R. Joe Campbell, the pillars of this list. James Lockhart fits in here somewhere and seems to have taught some of the people now publishing translations of old Nahuatl texts. I don't know any of these scholars personally, so I don't have a handle on their relative ages to see the generational perspective. Can anybody out there help me put the pieces together to see some sort of family tree of mentors and disciples? I'm particularly interested in any possible connection between the mid-20th century school of nahuatlatos in Mexico City and the people working in the US. The European school, whose flowering can be seen on Marc Thouvenot's SUP-INFOR website, is another matter, and any data on it would also be most welcome. Saludos, David Wright www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From villas at nyphotostudio.com Sun May 21 22:53:11 2006 From: villas at nyphotostudio.com (villas) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 18:53:11 -0400 Subject: Schools In-Reply-To: <0IZM00HK7K5C8Y@smtp.prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: Lets not forget Robert H Barrow. http://www.hawaii.edu/jcf/Escritos/charlotescritosapp.html marcos On May 21, 2006, at 12:51 PM, David Wright wrote: > Estimados listeros: > ? > I've long wondered about how accumulated knowledge of Nahuatl grammar > was transmited over the years, particularly during the 20th century. I > know that Mexican priest and scholar Angel Maria Garibay Kintana was a > pioneer and I think?I read somewhere that he taught?Miguel > Leon-Portilla and Thelma Sullivan. Francisco Horcasitas must fit in > here somewhere. North of the border several people dabbled in Nahuatl > in the 19th century and early 20th centuries, but it seems that Arthur > Anderson played an important role in digging in deeper and teaching > others. J. Richard Andrews is obviously a key figure, taking full > advantage of the phonological and grammatical precision to be found in > Carochi's Arte of 1645. His influence is obvious in the grammars and > dictionaries of Frances Karttunen and R. Joe Campbell, the pillars of > this list. James Lockhart fits in here somewhere and seems to have > taught some of the people now publishing translations of old Nahuatl > texts. I don't know any of these scholars personally, so I don't have > a handle on their relative ages to see the generational perspective. > Can anybody out there help me put the pieces together to see some sort > of family tree of mentors and disciples? I'm particularly interested > in any possible connection between the mid-20th century school of > nahuatlatos in Mexico City and the people working in the US. The > European school, whose flowering can be seen on Marc Thouvenot's > SUP-INFOR website, is another matter, and any data on it would also be > most welcome. > ? > Saludos, > ? > David Wright > www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright > ?_______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From bortiz at earthlink.net Mon May 22 04:27:00 2006 From: bortiz at earthlink.net (bernard Ortiz de Montellano) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 00:27:00 -0400 Subject: Schools Message-ID: Garibay also taught Charles Dibble Bernard -----Original Message----- >From: villas >Sent: May 21, 2006 6:53 PM >To: David Wright >Cc: "Nahuat-l (messages)" >Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Schools > >Lets not forget Robert H Barrow. >http://www.hawaii.edu/jcf/Escritos/charlotescritosapp.html >marcos >On May 21, 2006, at 12:51 PM, David Wright wrote: > >> Estimados listeros: >> ??? >> I've long wondered about how accumulated knowledge of Nahuatl grammar >> was transmited over the years, particularly during the 20th century. I >> know that Mexican priest and scholar Angel Maria Garibay Kintana was a >> pioneer and I think???I read somewhere that he taught???Miguel >> Leon-Portilla and Thelma Sullivan. Francisco Horcasitas must fit in >> here somewhere. North of the border several people dabbled in Nahuatl >> in the 19th century and early 20th centuries, but it seems that Arthur >> Anderson played an important role in digging in deeper and teaching >> others. J. Richard Andrews is obviously a key figure, taking full >> advantage of the phonological and grammatical precision to be found in >> Carochi's Arte of 1645. His influence is obvious in the grammars and >> dictionaries of Frances Karttunen and R. Joe Campbell, the pillars of >> this list. James Lockhart fits in here somewhere and seems to have >> taught some of the people now publishing translations of old Nahuatl >> texts. I don't know any of these scholars personally, so I don't have >> a handle on their relative ages to see the generational perspective. >> Can anybody out there help me put the pieces together to see some sort >> of family tree of mentors and disciples? I'm particularly interested >> in any possible connection between the mid-20th century school of >> nahuatlatos in Mexico City and the people working in the US. The >> European school, whose flowering can be seen on Marc Thouvenot's >> SUP-INFOR website, is another matter, and any data on it would also be >> most welcome. >> ??? >> Saludos, >> ??? >> David Wright >> www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright >> ???_______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >_______________________________________________ >Nahuatl mailing list >Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Wed May 24 10:28:31 2006 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 06:28:31 -0400 Subject: Podcast: Rethinking Malinche Message-ID: A podcast of my essay "Rethinking Malinche" from the book Indian Women of Early Mexico is available at the following site: http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com/podcast/mujer.html Many thanks to Grinnell College for making its recording facility available to me in preparing for this podcast and to Joseph Puentes for putting it up on his site. Frances Karttunen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl