From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Thu Nov 2 09:43:43 2006 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 01:43:43 -0800 Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: | I've never heard of the *Analytic Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar,* | which you mention twice. I have Karttunen's *An Analytical Dictionary | of Nahuatl* and Sullivan's *Compendio de la Gramatica Nahuatl* | (which I understand exists in translation as the *Compendium of | Nahuatl Grammar*). Is there a new grammar out, or have you just | added a Karttunian adjective to Sullivan's classic (but | phonologically pre-Andrews) study? Whoooops, I guess my subconscious must have played a trick on my poor drowsy, sleepy fingers as they were trying to type the post that must have puzzled you. Anyway, not only do I have a very dog-eared copy of Thelma Sullivan's "Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar" (1988), but I also have a paperback copy of Frances Karttunen's "Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl" (1983), and how I wish they were hardbacked, as I am very hard on my books. As I've had these books for a few years, it seems a pity I am only now digging into them. It appears that I also have had, at my disposal if I were so inclined, a paperback by James Taggart, "Nahuat Myth and Social Structure" (first printing in paperback, 1997), but there's very little linguistic information in that work. It's more a sociological treatment. Back in the 1990s (and through 1991 or so), I had access to a native of Mexico (and self-titled student of Nahuatl), and that is how I learned to make the -tl sound in the "final" position, and for which I am very thankful. This is because the closest that comes to the -tl sound (for English speakers) is, arguably, the Ll sound in Welsh. Then on Monday, October 30th, I went to a local bookstore and bought James Lockhart's "Nahuatl as Written" (2001). On browsing through it, I consider it an excellent and highly desirable addition to my collection. The only complaint I have, is the same complaint I previously had: an expectation that I should have had some familiarity with the Spanish language, and Spanish orthography. In the preface to James Lockart's work, he writes: "If you feel the need of some grounding in pronunciation, you might turn first to Lesson 17, on orthographic matters. But you will do just as well knowing that the letters in general are pronounced much as in Spanish (for rare is the person who comes to Nahuatl without knowing some Spanish first), that ",c" represents [s] as in "soar," x stands for [sh] as in "shell," and /tl/ represents a single complex consonant, never making a syllable by itself. Stress is on the penultimate syllable of a word." Well, I am one of those rare individuals with a pretty good background in Classical Latin instead of a background of any kind in Spanish. (If I know a few parts of speech in Spanish, it is in spite of having studied Latin.) I think the choice of Spanish orthography is a huge detriment to my getting into the language, but I am persevering anyway. The Mexican native that taught me Nawatl had linguistically "compromised" reading/writing skills, except in his indian language (one of those Indian "dialectos"), and he just tried to sound out the words, and write them down phonetically, hoping I could follow him. In Lockhart's Chapter 17, he mentioned the various ways of writing a nasal consonant (usually by employing a superscript stroke of some kind over the preceding vowel). Needless to say, that little stroke usually represented the accusative form of a noun in Mediaeval Latin, but other times, with a single abbreviating stroke, represented the enclitic suffixes -que -ne or -ve, and very rarely the enclitic -ce. (Lockhart could have mentioned that, but he wasn't writing to those of us with a background in Latin instead of Spanish.) My objective in studying Classical Nawatl is to be able to read a few passages here and there, and perhaps write some. I also have dreams of writing and directing a vampire movie with a mostly Mexican cast, and it would be nice to have a Nawatl language option for DVD distributions. (Needless to say, I'd like to be able to *read* the stuff that I pay my translators to come up with, and that way I'll know if any of the translations are actually worth the money I put up for it. But time is on my side, and as I am not in a hurry, I'll get around to the movie treatment when I get around to it.) _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Fri Nov 3 01:39:15 2006 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 20:39:15 -0500 Subject: In memory of Bill Bright Message-ID: It occurs to me that the passing of Nahuatlahtoh William Bright may not have been noted on this list. Here is an announcement from the electronic bulletin of the Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas: * ELF establishes Bill Bright Memorial Award ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From Nick Emlen (emlen at haskins.yale.edu) 17 Oct 2006: We are saddened by the passing of Bill Bright, a long-time colleague and a prolific scholar. Bill's family has requested that memorial contributions be made to the Endangered Language Fund. We have created a fund that will enable the creation of the Bill Bright Award. This will help memorialize his many years of contributions to linguistics and his service to the profession as editor of Language (1966-87), Language in Society (1992-99), and the first edition of the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics, and as founding editor of Written Language and Literacy (1998-2003). From among the annual applications to the Endangered Language Fund's grant program, one successful project from those dealing with languages in the Americas or in South Asia will be selected. This will be the project that best combines Bill's areal interests -- North and Central America, South Asia -- with his topic interests: -- language description -- language and culture -- sociolinguistics -- writing systems -- creating culturally-acceptable orthographies for minority languages -- differences between written and oral language -- oral literatures and their poetics -- onomastics, toponyms and naming in general The Bill Bright project will receive a separate press release and an additional amount of money equal to 10% of the proposed budget. We hope that this supplement will allow for additional efforts to promote the work in the native speaker communities and with the general public. Please help us honor Bill's memory by sending a contribution to: The Endangered Language Fund 300 George Street, Suite 900 New Haven, CT 06511 Please make a note that this is in honor of Bill so that the funds can be ear-marked for this award. Online donations can be made at: https://www.networkforgood.org/donate/MakeDonation2.aspx? ORGID2=061459207 Please put "Bill Bright Fund" in the Designation area. --Nick Emlen Endangered Language Fund emlen at haskins.yale.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rcrapo at hass.usu.edu Thu Nov 2 22:36:11 2006 From: rcrapo at hass.usu.edu (Richley) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 15:36:11 -0700 Subject: Oyome Message-ID: Can anyone offer a translation of the place name Oyome (the legendary home of Xolotl)? Richley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 3 11:14:24 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 06:14:24 -0500 Subject: In memory of Bill Bright In-Reply-To: <4c0d2854239c6b792015bba4d40777a8@comcast.net> Message-ID: There was also an obituary in the New York Times last week, maybe on Tuesday. Quoting Frances Karttunen : > It occurs to me that the passing of Nahuatlahtoh William Bright may > not have been noted on this list. > > Here is an announcement from the electronic bulletin of the Society > for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas: > > * ELF establishes Bill Bright Memorial Award > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > From Nick Emlen (emlen at haskins.yale.edu) 17 Oct 2006: > > We are saddened by the passing of Bill Bright, a long-time colleague > and a prolific scholar. Bill's family has requested that memorial > contributions be made to the Endangered Language Fund. We have created > a fund that will enable the creation of the Bill Bright Award. This > will help memorialize his many years of contributions to linguistics and > his service to the profession as editor of Language (1966-87), Language in > Society (1992-99), and the first edition of the International Encyclopedia > of Linguistics, and as founding editor of Written Language and Literacy > (1998-2003). From among the annual applications to the Endangered Language > Fund's grant program, one successful project from those dealing with > languages in the Americas or in South Asia will be selected. This will > be the project that best combines Bill's areal interests -- North and > Central America, South Asia -- with his topic interests: > > -- language description > -- language and culture > -- sociolinguistics > -- writing systems > -- creating culturally-acceptable orthographies for minority languages > -- differences between written and oral language > -- oral literatures and their poetics > -- onomastics, toponyms and naming in general > > The Bill Bright project will receive a separate press release and an > additional amount of money equal to 10% of the proposed budget. We hope > that this supplement will allow for additional efforts to promote the > work in the native speaker communities and with the general public. > > Please help us honor Bill's memory by sending a contribution to: > > The Endangered Language Fund > 300 George Street, Suite 900 > New Haven, CT 06511 > > Please make a note that this is in honor of Bill so that the funds can be > ear-marked for this award. > > Online donations can be made at: > > https://www.networkforgood.org/donate/MakeDonation2.aspx? ORGID2=061459207 > > Please put "Bill Bright Fund" in the Designation area. > > --Nick Emlen > Endangered Language Fund > emlen at haskins.yale.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Fri Nov 3 13:25:33 2006 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:25:33 -0500 Subject: In memory of Bill Bright Message-ID: Here is the NYT obit for Bill Bright: October 23, 2006 William Bright, 78, Expert In Indigenous Languages By MARGALIT FOX William Bright, an internationally renowned linguist who spent more than half a century inventorying the vanishing riches of the indigenous languages of the United States, died on Oct. 15 in Louisville, Colo. He was 78 and lived in Boulder, Colo. The cause was a brain tumor, said his daughter, Susie Bright, the well-known writer of erotica. At his death, Mr. Bright was professor adjoint of linguistics at the University of Colorado, Boulder. He was also emeritus professor of linguistics and anthropology at the University of California, Los Angeles, where he taught from 1959 to 1988. An authority on the native languages and cultures of California, Mr. Bright was known in particular for his work on Karuk (also spelled Karok), an American Indian language from the northwest part of the state. Shortly before his death, in recognition of his efforts to document and preserve the language, he was made an honorary member of the Karuk tribe, the first outsider to be so honored. His books include ''American Indian Linguistics and Literature'' (Mouton, 1984); ''A Coyote Reader'' (University of California, 1993); ''1,500 California Place Names: Their Origin and Meaning'' (University of California, 1998); and ''Native American Placenames of the United States'' (University of Oklahoma, 2004). Mr. Bright's approach to the study of language was one seldom seen nowadays. With the ascendance of Noam Chomsky in the late 1950's, linguistics shifted its focus from documenting language as an artifact of human culture to analyzing it as a window onto human cognition. But to Mr. Bright, language was inseparable from its cultural context, which might include songs, poetry, stories and everyday conversation. And so, lugging unwieldy recording devices, he continued to make forays into traditional communities around the world, sitting down with native speakers and eliciting words, phrases and sentences. Among the languages on which he worked were Nahuatl, an Aztec language of Mexico; Cakchiquel, of Guatemala; Luiseño, Ute, Wishram and Yurok, languages of the Western United States; and Lushai, Kannada, Tamil and Tulu, languages of the Indian subcontinent. William Oliver Bright was born on Aug. 13, 1928, in Oxnard, Calif. He received a bachelor's degree in linguistics from the University of California, Berkeley, in 1949. After a stint in Army intelligence, he earned a doctorate in linguistics from Berkeley in 1955. He began his fieldwork among the Karuk in 1949. At the time, their language was a tattered remnant of its former splendor, spoken by just a handful of elders. Since encounters with Europeans had rarely ended well for the Karuk, the community had little reason to welcome an outsider. But Bill Bright was deferential, curious and, at 21, scarcely more than a boy. He was also visibly homesick. The Karuk grandmothers took him in, baking him cookies and cakes and sharing their language. They named him Uhyanapatanvaanich, ''little word-asker.'' In 1957, Mr. Bright published ''The Karok Language'' (University of California), a detailed description of the language and its structure. Last year, the tribe published a Karuk dictionary, compiled by Mr. Bright and Susan Gehr. Today, Karuk children learn the language in tribal schools. Mr. Bright was divorced twice and widowed twice. From his first marriage, he is survived by his daughter, Susannah (known as Susie), of Santa Cruz, Calif. Also surviving are his wife, Lise Menn, a professor of linguistics at the University of Colorado; two stepsons, Stephen Menn of Montreal and Joseph Menn of Los Angeles; one grandchild; and two step-grandchildren. His other books include ''The World's Writing Systems'' (Oxford University, 1996), which he edited with Peter T. Daniels; and the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics (Oxford University, 1992), of which he was editor in chief. From 1966 to 1987, Mr. Bright was the editor of Language, the field's flagship journal. The professor was also a meticulous reader of all his daughter's manuscripts. He displayed the finished products -- among them ''Susie Bright's Sexual State of the Union'' (Simon & Schuster, 1997) and ''Mommy's Little Girl: On Sex, Motherhood, Porn and Cherry Pie'' (Thunder's Mouth Press, 2003) -- proudly on his shelves at home. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 05:03:07 2006 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 21:03:07 -0800 Subject: Nahuatl scholarship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Excuse my delay in getting back; its been a bit rough here in Oaxaca recently and I have been distracted. Ben, already knowledgeable about New Philology (NP), asked for biographical information, but also for suggestions as to “persistent problems, questions and unexplored avenues that remain”. My message attempted to provide ideas that build on the important work of NP, but--as far as I’m aware--have generally not been unexplored in the NP literature. I truly hope I didn’t give anyone the impression that I consider NP to have been operating with blinders. This is not at all my belief. I don’t think Lockhart’s “The Nahuas after the Conquest” has ever presumed to be “the be-all and end-all” (as Barry said) of colonial Nahua scholarship. But it is unquestionably a tremendous advance. I have come back to that book over and over again and my appreciation for it has only grown. I also hope nobody took my message to say that NP has been lazy in its investigations. Again, this could not be farther from the truth. NP has been an exceptionally productive school of history. We are “only human” (as Barry said); it certainly would be unfair and hypocritical to expect then a superhuman, all-encompassing research production. Again, my message was not directed towards established investigators as a criticism for not having done more things; it was directed towards someone who is about to begin a PhD investigation. I believe its important for someone who is about to set off on such an investigation to consider actively ways to expand the already existing research. Perhaps others here have some ideas as well and would consider posting them here. I for one would be most interested to read them. I found John’s message very interesting. Enormous work needs to be done in the descriptive linguistics and documentation of Mexican languages. Moreover, it is becoming increasingly apparent that the continued internal colonialism of indigenous people in Mexico needs to be dealt with urgently. Educational programs such as John’s help do that. My congratulations to him for having taken up these challenges. Based on what has been published over the past three decades by those claiming to be working in this school, I would describe NP as the study of colonial history of indigenous peoples primarily through the close reading of colonial language texts in their own languages (most notably Nahuatl, Yucatec and Mixtec). Is this characterization fair? John, how do you see your work within the tradition of NP? To rephrase, and hopefully clarify, my previous message, I’d make the following off-the-cuff suggestions for a PhD candidate interested in preparing a dissertation on Nahuatl-language sources. 1-Consider work on a local, (for example, municipal or mayordomia) archive. This can be a good way to understand Mexican archives and also will contribute directly to the protection of the documents themselves. 2-(Related to first) Consider lower-level indigenous institutions (mayordomias, secciones, barrios ) as a possible case study. Many of these institutions have left local archives with indigenous-language documentation which, as far as I’m aware, almost nobody has looked at. 3-Consider ways in which knowledge from other disciplines can contribute to the study of these texts. The issue here is how to avoid the constraints of disciplinary classifications—-while respecting the necessary differentiation and specialization of the social sciences—-to arrive at new, insightful and useful interpretations of social reality. Ideally this would have interdisciplinarity be a unifying activity drawing together divided knowledge to address specific problem or question. The interpretation of texts (i.e. philology, new or old) lends itself to such an interdisciplinary approach. 4-Consider indigenous history after the 18th century. 5-Consider incorporating modern indigenous oral literature, speech genres and rhetoric into the study of older documents. 6-Spend some time living in an indigenous community if you can. Many other tasks are necessary for the development a more refined Mesoamerican philology. Many basic tools are only just being made now. The publication of critical editions (like Barry is doing) is crucial. The painstaking work of making morphological or lexical concordances (like Joe Campbell is doing) is invaluable. Establishing censes of known indigenous-language documentation (like Frederick Schwaller has done and Michel Oudijk and Maria Castañeda are doing) is also essential. Digitalization of the texts (like Stephanie and the U Oregon team is doing with the wired humanities project), the preservation of texts, the creation of text-based grammars, etymological dictionaries the list goes on and on. And these are just the tools based on the older written sources! This barely touches on the living cultures. But perhaps these important tasks don’t make for a good dissertation topic on Nahua history. I am in complete agreement with John that we should make the training and support of indigenous professionals in history (linguistics, archaeology, sociology, etc) a priority; I would argue we should make it our foremost priority. But, of course, it is not reasonable to expect much advance on this from a PhD student who has yet to determine his dissertation topic. Anyway, thanks for the interesting comments. Mike Swanton --- Amapohuani at aol.com wrote: > Listeros: > > I feel that Michael's comments are very thoughtful > and I am glad that he has > shared them with the list. > > I speak only for myself but I especially like what > I take to be his > well-expressed suggestions about aggressively > reaching out and incorporating into all > of our work whatever is useful and illuminating [and > I mean that in both the > sense of those doing the work and their audiences, > the two not always being so > different]. I share that sentiment, only pointing > out that individuals and > even small groups of collaborating scholars can only > do so much. For example, > Louise Burkhart and I are going to end up spending > twelve very arduous years > putting out the four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set. And > currently I am on a longterm > fellowship at the Newberry Library in Chicago > working on some remarkable, and > basically unknown, Carochi papers. I am going to > work up a critical edition: > and I conservatively estimate three more years on > this project alone! I can > imagine doing more, learning how to do more, and > wish I could do more, but > unfortunately I am only human. So if new folks want > to join in the work and bring > new perspectives and skill sets, IMHO, the more the > merrier! > > I would only add an observation. I remember when > xeroxes of a few chapters of > Jim's THE NAHUAS AFTER THE CONQUEST were sitting in > boxes at UCLA circa 1990 > to be read by his grad students. One of those > students, Kevin Terraciano, has > taken Jim's place at UCLA, and Kevin's own survey of > the Mixtecs is now the > equivalent for that group of what Jim's is for early > Nahuas. That people might > now find that Jim's THE NAHUAS is not the be-all and > end-all [I never thought > it was or was meant to be but appreciated it for > helping speed the rest of us > on our way] and that more work in many directions is > necessary and feasible, I > find both fascinating and a bit funny. Whatever it > is called, Early Latin > American Studies, the New Philology [as opposed to > the old and now-displaced > one?], Ethnohistory, mainstream this or cutting-edge > that, work on early Nahuatl > texts is very v ery far from being even modestly > 'finished.' It is not an > 'accomplished fact' sitting on the 'road of > progress' getting in the way but, to my > way of thinking, a constantly moving target -- note > that Louise and I have > effectively made Jim's discussion of early Nahuatl > theater very thin and dated, > but Jim's work is still very valuable in many > respects even as people add it > to, modify it, and even replace it. In fact, on a > personal note I must say that > I do not think I will get to see much more than > modest advances in my lifetime > just on the textual corpus alone, not to mention all > the others directions > and projects that Michael lists. > > Again, I thank Michael for sharing his thoughts with > us and wish him well in > his future endeavors. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry D. Sell > > In a message dated 10/27/06 8:00:26 AM, > mwswanton at yahoo.com writes: > > > > > > Lockhart¡Çs "New Philology" clearly represents an > > enduring contribution to understanding indigenous > > culture during Spanish colonial rule. It has > > contributed significantly to the view that > cultural > > change during that time was not the simple > > displacement of indigenous culture, but rather > > functioned through already existing indigenous > > mechanisms and ways of understanding. It is a > > extremely important historical school. There are > many > > consequences to their work, which provides an > > important base for all future investigation. I¡Çm > a big > > fan of New Philology. > > > > I believe however that it can, and should, be > > expanded. The following suggestions come to mind: > > 1. The selection of sources. Most of the major > sources > > used by the new philologists are located in > national > > or foreign archives and libraries. Very little > work > > has been carried out in more local archives, I > suspect > > because of their poor organization and difficult > > access. The mayordom$(D+?a archives are > practically > > untouched. A worthwhile project you might consider > is > > the organization of a local archive. Not only > might > > that provide a solid case study, the basis for > which > > major synthetic studies are built, but it will > > contribute to the preservation of the Nahuas > > historical patrimony. > > > > 2. Interdisciplinary study. In their method, the > new > > philologists¡Ç study ends where the text ends. The > > contextualization of the Nahua ancestral documents > > reaches little beyond the texts themselves. It is > > uncommon that data from archaeology, cultural > > geography, linguistics, contemporary social > structure, > > historical architecture, etc. are ever brought to > bear > > on issues raised in the texts under examination. > Thus, > > in his major synthetic study, Lockhart dedicates a > > whole section to the architectural layout of > colonial > > households, yet never considers the mass of > > archaeological data that directly relates to this > > issue. Such data can potentially enrich the > reading > > and interpretation of the texts considerably, but > its > > use would involve transgressing disciplinary > > boundaries and leaving the domain of traditional, > > document-based history. Mesoamerica is a rewarding > > area for interdisciplinary study. > > > > 3. The study of post-Independent Mexico Nahuas. > New > > Philology invariably studies texts that are > temporally > > limited to the centuries of Spanish colonial rule. > > Writing in indigenous languages continued after > the > > colony, and, though considerably different in its > > content and audience, this too reflects social > > realities of Indigenous Mexico. Moreover, in > Mexico > > and Guatemala today, many Native Americans > continue to > > produce texts, both written and oral, in their > > languages. While recognizing continuity in > indigenous > > ways of understanding during the dramatic changes > from > > the precolonial to colonial periods, New Philology > has > > not incorporated indigenous cultural continuity > after > > 1821 into their investigations. The great > Hellenist > > Milman Parry, significantly changed how we > understand > > the classical Greek texts by studying early 20th > > century oral literature in Yugoslavia. I am > convinced > > the study of modern oral literature, speech genres > and > > rhetorical devises would shed much light on the > older > > texts. In general, it has been my experience that > > trying to understand the present day realities of > > indigenous life will help inspire and ground your > work > > in new and unexpected ways. > > > > Saludos, > > Michael Swanton > > > > > > --- b.leeming at rivers.org wrote: > > > > > > > > Listeros, > > > > > > I posted an inquiry to the list back in July > asking > > > for information on who > > > is currently doing scholarship on the corpus of > > > 16th-18th century > > > Nahuatl-language documents that is the focus of > much > > > of Lockhart$(D+$"os work. > > > While I received a few responses (Schwaller, > Wood, > > > Gilchrist $(D+$¡È thank you!), > > > my hunch is that there may be more of you > actively > > > reading posts now that > > > the academic year is in full swing and so I > would > > > like to pose part of my > > > original query again. > > > > > > In particular, it is the second part of my > question > > > (which was not > > > responded to) that I would like to resubmit. I > > > wrote: > > > > > > $(D+$)MAs a soon-to-be doctoral student who is > hoping to > > > focus his research on > > > Nahuatl documents such as these, I am interested > in > > > determining what are > > > the persistent problems, questions and > unexplored > > > avenues that remain. Or, > > > put another way, where would you advise a > would-be > > > scholar who wants to > > > work with Nahuatl source material turn his > > > attention?$(D+$¢® > > > > > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated! > > > > > > Ben Leeming > > > The Rivers School > > > Weston, MA > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Nov 7 21:38:37 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 16:38:37 -0500 Subject: Florentine Codex Message-ID: From: "Walter Koenig" Date: Tue, November 7, 2006 2:56 pm Greetings, I recently purchased two twelve volume sets of Bernardino de Sahagún's Florentine Codex translated with notes by Charles E. Dibble and Arthur J.O. Anderson and learned that the stock is running low at the Distribution Center. There are only a maximum of thirty copies of each volume remaining and only seven copies of volume eleven. According to the information I have, it is doubtful that the University of Utah Press will reprint the Florentine Codex any time soon. Even if purchasing the set from used the various on-line book sites one can expect to pay between $600 to over $1,200 fora complete set, so now is the time to buy it new. Here is the link to University of Utah Press: http://www.uofupress.com/ Best Wishes, Walter O. Koenig _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mijobas at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 01:59:50 2006 From: mijobas at yahoo.com (Michael Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:59:50 -0800 Subject: Florentine Codex In-Reply-To: <1281.72.255.7.168.1162935517.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Might this also be the time to suggest that Dibble and Anderson should be scanned, online, searchable and free? Does anyone think U of U Press might go for that? Best, Michael Stevenson --- "John F. Schwaller" wrote: > > > From: "Walter Koenig" > Date: Tue, November 7, 2006 2:56 pm > > Greetings, > > I recently purchased two twelve volume sets of > Bernardino de > Sahagún's Florentine Codex translated with notes by > Charles E. Dibble > and Arthur J.O. Anderson and learned that the stock > is running low at > the Distribution Center. There are only a maximum of > thirty copies of > each volume remaining and only seven copies of > volume eleven. > According to the information I have, it is doubtful > that the > University of Utah Press will reprint the Florentine > Codex any time > soon. > > Even if purchasing the set from used the various > on-line book sites > one can expect to pay between $600 to over $1,200 > fora complete set, > so now is the time to buy it new. > > Here is the link to University of Utah Press: > http://www.uofupress.com/ > > Best Wishes, > > Walter O. Koenig > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get an Online or Campus degree Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's - in less than one year. http://www.findtherightschool.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Nov 14 21:42:48 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:42:48 -0600 Subject: cuatemitoc Message-ID: Listeros, I came across an interesting word today in Chicontepec Nahuatl. "cua:te:mitoc. ni." = "I have bump (chipote) on my head", or more literally, "I am head-swollen". First let's get "cua-" from "cua:itl", "head", out of the way. OK, the interesting thing is this. We have either the intransive "te:mi", "to fill up or swell", which should reduce to "te:n-"; or the causitive "te:mia", "to fill something up" or perhaps "to make something swell up", which should reduce to "te:mih-". On these two reduced forms you could then add the auxiliary "-toc" (- ti- ligature, plus the singular preterite-as-present form of the verb "o", "to be lying down"), which in the Huasteca means "to have done something (present perfect tense), or sometimes, by extension, to be in the state resulting from that action. Anyway, you would get either "cua:te:ntoc" ("cua:-" as adverb) or "cua:te:mihtoc" ("cua:-" as object). The problem is that the native speakers here insist that it is "cua:te:mitoc". Given the fact that class 2 verb reduction is a relatively recent phenomenon in the evolution of Nahuatl, and that peripheral variants, such as the Nahuatl of the Huasteca tend to conserve older forms, and that in the Huasteca (perhaps in other areas too) many verbs can be conjugated either as class 1 or class 2 with no difference in meaning (this is not the case with "te:mi" today), could we perhaps be seeing in "cua:te:mitoc" an older unreduced form of the verb "te:mi"? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jrabasa at calmail.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 15 23:54:28 2006 From: jrabasa at calmail.berkeley.edu (Jos=?ISO-8859-1?B?6SA=?=Rabasa) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:54:28 -0800 Subject: Mesoamerican time before and after the Spanish invasion In-Reply-To: <56576fe040b2372e688344b6f4c888c6@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Dear Listeros: I am writing to invite all those of you who reside in the Baya Area of thereabouts to a colloquium on "Meosamerican time before and after the Spanish invasion." I am enclosing the program below. Best wishes, Jose Rabasa, Chair Department of Spanish and Portuguese UC Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720 Tel. 510-642-2105 Fax 510- 642-69-57 Mesoamerican Time before and after the Spanish invasion Tuesday, November 21, 2006 Geballe Room, Townsend Center for the Humanities, 120 Stevens Hall 9-10 Kathleen Davis (English, Princeton University) ³¹Times take their names from measure¹: Periodization and Political Theology in the Work of Bede² Discussant: Felipe Rojas 10:15-11:15 Gordon Brotherston (Spanish and Portuguese, Stanford) ³The Feathered Crown: The Mesoamerican Era and Gregorian Calendar Reform" Discussant: Heather McMichael 11:30-12:30 Johanna Broda (Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, UNAM) "Time and Space in Ancient Mesoamerica" Discussant: Beatriz Reyes-Cortés 1:30-2:30 Johannes Neurath (Museo Nacional de Antropología, INAH) "A 17th Century Cora Calendar Compared to Contemporary Huichol and Cora Practices" Discussant: Chrissy Arce 2:45-3:45 José Rabasa (Spanish and Portuguese, UC Berkeley) ³The Colonial Divide² Discussant: Stephanie Schmidt 4-5 Jesús Rodríguez-Velasco (Spanish and Portuguese, UC Berkeley) "Entropy" Discussant: Seth Kimmel 5:45-6:30 Assessment of colloquium Semmycolon (Seminario de Estudios Medievales, Modernos y Coloniales) brings together a multidisciplinary group of lecturers and graduate students to conduct research into culture, literature, arts, history, and politics from the Middle Ages to the early 18th Century in both the Western and the Colonial worlds. Sponsored by: The Townsend Center for the Humanities, The Center for Latin American Studies (CLAS), and the Departments of Spanish and Portuguese, Medieval Studies, and Anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 17 01:06:22 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 20:06:22 -0500 Subject: cuatemitoc Message-ID: MY SERVER SLIPPED: I thought that I was replying both to John and the Nahuat-l group, but I checked and saw that this message went only to John, so here is a carbon copy of it (risking a certain amount of unintelligibility with a phrase like "carbon copy", but we still "dial" someone up to talk in this push-button age). Joe ................ John, Your question caused me to oninocuatatacac quite a bit. I still don't have an answer, but I *do* have a question about verbs like "cua:te:mitoc" in Chicontepec Nahuatl. In "older" Nahuatl (sometimes called "classical" or even "Classical"), the "causative -a" suffix can be added to intransitive verbs and no deletion of the verb stem final vowel takes place (e.g., aqui-a, capa:ni-a, chipi:ni-a, coyo:ni-a, pozo:ni-a, tlami-a, tzili:ni-a, xiti:ni-a, etc.), but when the causative -a suffix is added to certain other intranstive verb, the verb stem final vowel is deleted (e.g., coto:ni --> coto:na, mani -- mana, te:mi --> te:ma, tlapa:ni --> tlapa:na, to:mi --> to:ma, etc.). In Chicontepec Nahuatl, does the second set of cases not occur? That is, does the addition of causative -a result in all "-ia" transitive verbs and no verbs that end in "consonant-a"? I label the two classes of causative "caus08" and "caus09", respectively, and I've included some examples below as reminding questions. Iztayohmeh, Joe Stems that take Caus08 aqui calaqui capa:ni xaxa:ni chacua:ni chala:ni chapa:ni chipi:ni chito:ni chopo:ni como:ni coxo:ni coyo:ni cuala:ni cuepo:ni cuetla:ni cueyo:ni hualani huito:ni ilaqui molo:ni o:li:ni paya:ni * petla:ni peto:ni pexo:ni peyo:ni pitzi:ni polo:ni poto:ni pozo:ni queloni tecui:ni tei:ni ti:li:ni tlami tlatzi:ni tomo:ni * topo:ni tzapi:ni tzicui:ni tzili:ni tzomo:ni tzopi:ni tzopo:ni tzotla:ni tzoyo:ni xahua:ni xama:ni xini xiti:ni xittomo:ni Stems that take Caus09 coto:ni huazomi huitomi ixtla:hui mani paya:ni * poxahui paya:hui te:mi tepe:hui tlapa:ni tlapohui to:mi tomo:ni * toxomi toya:hui tzaya:ni tzopi Both Caus08 and Caus09?? paya:ni * tomo:ni * paya:ni * tomo:ni * _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Fri Nov 17 01:37:30 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:37:30 -0600 Subject: cuatemitoc Message-ID: Hi Joe, First of all, yes, both kinds of causatives occur in Huastecan Nahuatl. Now here is what I got from the native speakers today: TE:MI > TE:MIC. Temi coxtalli (the bag fills up) Nictemitia coxtalli (I fill up the bag) Niquintemitilia inincoxtal Maria huan Pedro (I fill up their bag for Maria and Pedro) *The last two can be modified to say: Nictemitia coxtalli ica cintli. Niquintemitilia inincoxtal Maria huan Pedro ica cintli. TE:MA, nic. > TE:NQUI. Nictema cintli (I pour the corn) Nictemilia cintli coxtalli (I pour the corn in the bag). There also seems to be a double causative built on temitia, which the native speakers are a bit fuzzy on: Nictemitiltia coxtalli. One opinion is that it emphasizes the fact that the job was really done, while another says that while “Nictemitia coxtalli” doesn’t require the specification of “ica cintli”, the double form does: Nictemitiltia coxtalli ica cintli. John PS, By the way, what are causative forms 1-7> John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 17 03:35:33 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:35:33 -0500 Subject: cuatemitoc In-Reply-To: <148CC195-531D-4EFB-ABB9-B3E455358DAA@mac.com> Message-ID: > PS, By the way, what are causative forms 1-7> > John caus01 -ltia quicacahualtiaya they made him abandon it caus02 -tia ticapizmictia you starve him caus03 -itia nimitzittitia I show it to you caus04 -(i)lia quicualtilia he improves it caus05 ...? vacated number caus06 ihui --> oa ahui --> oa nitlacaloa I make a groove in something niccopichoa I scoop it out caus07 -altia nitetlacaxanaltia I loosen s.t. up for s.o. ... ... caus10 -ahuia quitlehcahuia he takes it up Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 17 18:36:00 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 13:36:00 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Chichimecs Message-ID: The discussion on Aztlan about the origin of "Chichimeca" seemed to be of interest to Nahuat-l-eros, so I am copying to y'all. ************************ Here are some examples of chi:chi: extracted from the three Molina dictionaries and the Florentine Codex. "b." numbers indicate which Book of the Florentine the wood was found in; "f." numbers are irrelevant. "55m" and "71m" numbers refer to the obvious Molina dictionaries and the glosses are his. Entries with " , " and a following element show prefixes placed after the "stem" for facility in alphabetization. Iztayohmeh, Joe chichi , mo-. it is sucked. b.10 f.7 chichi , qui-. it suckles. b.10 f.7 chichi , ni. mamar. 55m-13 chichi , ni. mamar. 71m2-4 chichi , oc. ni¤o o ni¤a de teta. 71m1-16 chichi piltontli , oc. ni¤o o ni¤a de teta; ni¤o; o ni¤a de teta. 55m-14 chichi. they nurse. b.10 f.9 chichihua. ama que cria. 71m2-4 chichihua. nursemaid; nursing woman; she suckles (them). b.6 f.20 chichihual , i-. her breast. b.10 f.7 chichihual , in-. their breast. b.10 f.9 chichihual , to. las tetas. 71m2-25 chichihual neucpatli , tla. lamedor o xaraue. 71m2-20 chichihualaapilol. muger de grandes tetas; tetuda de grandes tetas. 71m2-4 chichihualatecomatl. tetuda de grandes tetas; muger de grandes tetas. 55m-19 chichihualayo , i-. her milk. b.11 f.16 chichihualayoatl. suero de leche; suero. 55m-18 chichihualayopatzquitl. suero de leche; suero. 55m-18 chichihualayotetzahualoni comitl. orza vaso de barro. 55m-15 chichihualayotl. leche generalmente; leche. 55m-12 chichihualayotl , ichiyahuaca in. nata que nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. 55m-14 chichihualayotl , iixtzotzoliuhca in. nata, que nada sobre la leche. 71m1-16 chichihualayotl , itlaixxo in. nata, que nada sobre la leche. 71m1-16 chichihualayotl , itlaixo in. nata de leche. >. 71m2-8 chichihualayotl. leche generalmente. 71m1-14 chichihualayotl. milk. b.10 f.8 chichihualayouh , in-. their milk. b.11 f.19 chichihualayoyo , i-. his milk. b.10 f.9 chichihualcahualtia , nite. destetar al ni¤o. 55m-6 chichihualcahualtia , nite. destetar al ni¤o. 71m2-4 chichihualcahualtilli , tla. destetado; ni¤o destetado. 55m-6 chichihualcocoltic. . b.11 f.21 chichihualcuahuitl. . b.10 f.9 chichihuale. . b.11 f.11 chichihualhuia , tla-. she suckles. b.11 f.14 chichihualixamexcayotl. suero de leche; suero. 55m-18 chichihuallaxhualiztli. breast tumor. b.10 f.9 chichihualli. teta; vbre teta de parida. 55m-19 chichihualli. breast. b.10 f.7 chichihualmecapal. muger de grandes tetas; tetuda de grandes tetas. 71m2-4 chichihualmecapalli. woman of long breasts. b.10 f.7 chichihualnanatzihui , ni. retesar las tetas. 55m-17 chichihualnanatzihuiliztli. retesamiento de tetas. 55m-17 chichihualnanatzihui , ni. retesar las tetas. 71m1-18 chichihualnanatzihuiliztli. retesamiento de tetas. 71m1-18 chichihualnanatzihui , ni. tener retesadas las tetas. 71m2-4 chichihualnanatzihuiliztli. retesamiento assi. 71m2-4 chichihualpatzca , nitla. orde¤ar. 71m1-16 chichihualpatzconi. herrada para orde¤ar. 55m-11 chichihualtomahua , ni. retesar las tetas. 55m-17 chichihualtomahua , ni. retesarseme las tetas. 71m2-4 chichihualtomahualiztli. retesamiento de tetas. 71m2-4 chichihualtotomahualiztli. retesamiento de tetas. 55m-17 chichihualtzitzitzquia , nite. tentar los pechos, o tetas a otra. 71m2-4 chichihualtzitzitzquiliztli , te. el acto de tentar las tetas a alguna persona. 71m2-16 chichihualtzitzquia , nite. tentar los pechos, o tetas a otra. 71m2-4 chichihualtzitzquiani , te. el que tienta los pechos o tetas a otra. 71m2-16 chichihualtzitzquiliztli , te. el acto de tentar las tetas a alguna persona. 71m2-16 chichihualxitomatl. nipple-shaped tomato. b.10 f.4 chichihualxochitl. . b.11 f.20 chichihualyacahuitztli. pe‡on de teta; pezon deteta. 55m-15 chichihualyacatl. pe‡on de teta; pezon deteta. 55m-15 chichihuame. nursemaids; nursing mothers. b.8 f.4 chichiltzintli. suckling baby. b.6 f.1 chichini. el que mama. 71m2-4 chichini. one who is suckled. b.10 f.1 chichinipol. mamanton o mamon; mamanton; o mamon. 55m-13 chichiti , tla. ama de ni¤o. 55m-00 chichitia , qui-. she suckles it. b.6 f.20 chichitia , nite. amamantar dar amamar; amamatar; dar a mamar; leche dar. 55m-00 chichitihui. they go nursing. b.11 f.2 chichitiz , qui-. . b.6 f.3 chichiz , qui-. he will suck it. b.10 f.9 chichiz. it will suckle. b.6 f.13 chiyahuaca inchichihualayotl , i. nata de leche. 71m2-6 cihuachichihualli. woman's breast. b.10 f.7 cihuapilchichihualli. girl's breast. b.10 f.7 conechichihualli. child's breast. b.10 f.7 conechichilli. ni¤o o ni¤a que avn no habla; ni¤o o ni¤a que aun no habla; ni¤o o ni¤a tierna. 55m-14 conechichilpil. ni¤o o ni¤a tierna. 71m2-4 eecachichina , n. chupar ayre, o cerner y rebolar el aue quando anda bolando. 71m2-5 ezchichinqui , te. ventosa que se echa al enfermo. 71m2-16 ichpochchichihualli. maiden's breast. b.10 f.7 iixtzotzoliuhca in chichihualayotl. nata que nada sobre la leche. 55m-14 itlaixxo in chichihualayotl. nata que nada sobre la leche. 55m-14 mechichihualli. maguey breast. b.11 f.18 mechichihualo. having maguey tips. b.11 f.21 oquichchichihualli. man's breast. b.10 f.7 palticacua tlatetzauhtli chichihualayotl , mo. requeson; requeson o quajada. 55m-20 tetzahualli chichihualayotl , tla. cuajada leche; cuajada de leche. 55m-4 tetzauhcahuatzalli chichihualayotl , tla. queso; queso curado; y anejo. 55m-16 tetzauhtli chichihualayotl , tla. cuajada leche. 55m-4 tetzauhtli chichihualayotl , tla. queso. 55m-16 tetzauhtli chichihualayotl , tla. cuajada de leche; queso. 71m1-6 tlacazolchichihuale. tetuda de grandes tetas. 55m-19 tlahelchichi. taster of filth. b.10 f.2 tlatlazolchichihuale. muger de grandes tetas. 71m2-20 yancuic chichihualayo tlatetzauhtli. queso fresco. 55m-16 yoyolca tlatetzauhtli chichihualayotl. qvaiada. 55m-20 _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sun Nov 19 10:20:04 2006 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 10:20:04 +0000 Subject: [Aztlan] Chichimecs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "R. Joe Campbell" wrote: > The discussion on Aztlan about the origin of "Chichimeca" seemed to > be of interest to Nahuat-l-eros, so I am copying to y'all. > chichi , mo-. it is sucked. b.10 f.7 > chichi , qui-. it suckles. b.10 f.7 > ... The connection between the Chichimecs and suckling may be remote. A similar example in the Old World is the connection between the Fatimid Arab dynasty (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid ) and the Arabic word root [f-t-m] = "to wean": the Fatimids were descended from Muhammad the prophet's daughter Fa_tima, and her name is Arabic for "she who weans". Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From amoxtli at earthlink.net Fri Nov 17 20:20:45 2006 From: amoxtli at earthlink.net (Walter Koenig) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:20:45 -0800 Subject: Holiday Sale at Univ. of Oklahoma Press Message-ID: Univ. of Oklahoma Press is having a Holiday Sale on all its books. Some are up to 90% off the list price. J. Richard Andrews’s Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, for example, is discounted 50%. http://www.oupress.com/ Best Wishes, Walter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lingoman at mac.com Fri Nov 24 07:21:38 2006 From: lingoman at mac.com (Doug Barr) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 23:21:38 -0800 Subject: Hello Message-ID: Hello, all - I've always been fascinated by languages, and recently came across Nahuatl - I'm hooked! Diving into it already thanks to the surprising amount of information out there... Got a couple of quick linguistic questions for anyone who can answer them (these are about the Classical language as that's the only one I have materials for). 1. Do long vowels have a different quality from short vowels, or are they simply pronounced twice as long? And, are there very many minimal pairs for vowel length? I've seen "metztli" "foot" and "me:tztli" "moon," but that's the only minimal pair for vowel length that I've seen, so far. 2. Verbs with third-person subject and object that are of the same number, i.e. both singular or both plural - if there's only one noun argument, is there a default reading for subject or object? E.g. does "O:quitta in cihua:tl" mean "The woman saw him/her," "He/she saw the woman," or both/either? 3. I know that the modern languages are different enough from each other to make inter-comprehension difficult, I'm curious to know how inter-intelligible any of the modern languages are with the classical language. Are the differences as great as, say, between Latin and the modern Romance languages? Thanks, and I hope to learn lots! Doug Barr 'S fhearr an saoghal ionnsachadh na sheachnadh. Better to teach (or learn) the world than shun it. (Gaelic proverb) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 24 14:27:39 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:27:39 -0500 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Doug Barr : > Hello, all - > > I've always been fascinated by languages, and recently came across > Nahuatl - I'm hooked! Diving into it already thanks to the surprising > amount of information out there... > > Got a couple of quick linguistic questions for anyone who can answer > them (these are about the Classical language as that's the only one I > have materials for). > > 1. Do long vowels have a different quality from short vowels, or are > they simply pronounced twice as long? I'm pretty sure one cannot say "twice as long" but they do have a distinctive, discernible length, and therefore are phonemic in character. Such vowel-length contrasts are common in American languages, as in the Algonquian family, e.g., Miami-Illinois /nipi/ 'water' but /niipi/ 'my arrow'. But, even in Algonquian, the minimal pair lists are not long. Interesting. And, are there very many > minimal pairs for vowel length? I've seen "metztli" "foot" and > "me:tztli" "moon," but that's the only minimal pair for vowel length > that I've seen, so far. There are not many, but more than that. Joe, do you have a list? One common verb contrast that comes to mind is /toka/ 'follow, chase' but /tooka/ 'bury, plant'. Both, of course, are spelled "toca". > 2. Verbs with third-person subject and object that are of the same > number, i.e. both singular or both plural - if there's only one noun > argument, is there a default reading for subject or object? E.g. does > "O:quitta in cihua:tl" mean "The woman saw him/her," "He/she saw the > woman," or both/either? Fundamentally, it means both. It also can mean "the woman saw them" (inanimate object plural). > 3. I know that the modern languages are different enough from each > other to make inter-comprehension difficult, I'm curious to know how > inter-intelligible any of the modern languages are with the classical > language. Are the differences as great as, say, between Latin and > the modern Romance languages? There are those who know better than I, but my impressionism is that, even with the heavy Spanish overlay, the Nahuatl *dialects* are not as divergent from "classical" Nahuatl as the modern Romance *languages* from Latin. Of course, the Romance languages have had more time to develop along their divergent tracks. Nahuatl dialects, strictly speaking, have been going down different tracks for much shorter time. The sixteen hundreds are not that long ago. Michael McCafferty > > Thanks, and I hope to learn lots! > > Doug Barr > > 'S fhearr an saoghal ionnsachadh na sheachnadh. Better to teach (or > learn) the world than shun it. (Gaelic proverb) > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de Fri Nov 24 16:06:40 2006 From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:06:40 +0100 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, hola, tlane:xtili Doug, ... and welcome. I only want to refer to your no. 3 re: dialects. Historical remark: Nahuatl already had a number of diverging dialects when written "classical" nahuatl came into being. Modern dialects are thus not mere branches stemming from that root but at least some have a longer history of their own. Most, however, interacted with "standard" Nahuatl (besides Spanish) for a long time, as this was a lingua franca in the Aztec Empire and in wide parts of New Spain (as an administrative and missionary language coupled with relatively widespread literacy), losing importance only after the Bourbonic reforms and altogether after Independence. For todays' situation, in terms of "intelligibility" I would differentiate three aspects: 1) objective linguistic facts 2) language ideology 3) cultural praxis / language practice 1) For a linguist all Nahuatl dialects look very similar, in many cases you can easily identify certain regular changes, innovations, archaisms. Some dialects located at quite a distance from each other are strikingly alike, some neighboring ones can be quite divergent. Most linguists would probably count a distant Nahuatl variant such as Pipil Nahuat in El Salvador as a "dialect". The Pochutec language in Oaxaca described by Franz Boas is the most divergent one, maybe Pochutec would be a candidate for the label "language". Unfortunately it is extinct as is probably Pipil (the latter a very tragic case). 2) Language ideology as coupled with the social reality of a class society defines certain languages as socially inferior. Speakers of such a language then tend to deny their mother tongue, depending on context. So when Nahuas from the same village avoid speaking their language with each other in an urban setting, they are much less likely to try their Nahuatl with a speaker from another region. Language ideologies detrimental to the preservation of Nahuatl come in two flavors, a rock and a hard place: (a) Progressist Flavor: Nahuatl is considered an obsolete vestige, a cultural expression of backward-oriented people, an obstacle to "progress" (you find this attitude even among bilingual teachers); (b) Purist Flavor: modern Nahuatl speakers are accused of "polluting" their once pristine, imperial language with Spanish modernisms, so it is not considered "legitimate" any more (many speakers, including bilingual teachers, give this as a reason not to speak nahuatl with their own children - "if it were still the real pure Aztec language, I would"). (I don't mean to personally criticize people who make a decision in favor of Spanish to the best of their understanding for the perceived best of their children.) All over, the respective local indigenous language is called "dialecto" by the locals, and they don't mean it as a linguistic term but to indicate that it is culturally and socially inferior to a "real" language like Spanish or English. (Look at the Hills' "Speaking Mexicano" for a Puebla case of language purism.) Under these circumstances, asking about intelligibility, you never know what is meant when somebody says "I don't understand the way those guys speak". 3) An intelligibility test with Nahuatl speakers from different regions will probably yield low rates of mututal understanding in a first run. But it will only take a very short time of joint practice and most will understand each other reasonably well. The reason why they seldom do in real life is that you don't use Nahuatl with someone you don't know, and there's always Spanish. Besides the perceived "inferiority" of the indigenous language, the real dialect differences can be a source of all kinds of jokes, which is not enjoyed by all. Compare this to a speaker of Castilean Spanish coming to Latin America and talking about "coger" all the time when the latino would say "tomar". So I guess the lack of interdialectal language practice leads to low intelligibility. Of course you find culturally interested individuals and Nahua intellectuals who enjoy using their language with "co-Nahuas" from all over but in my experience this is not the general rule. But it remains an interesting question. Are there any systematic intelligibility test carried out anywhere (I mean from speakers' point of view, not judging from vocabulary lists / lexocstatistics)? On what empirical grounds have standardization efforts (look at the SEP/DGEI schoolbooks) been undertaken? Ay, mela:k nitlatlahtotika we:i, xne:chpialika:n paciencia ;-) ma nya Henry _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Fri Nov 24 22:05:25 2006 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:05:25 -0800 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: <20061124092739.vk8v806c8w8g4o4o@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Michael McCafferty wrote: | There are not many, but more than that. Joe, do you have a list? | One common verb contrast that comes to mind is /toka/ 'follow, chase' | but /tooka/ 'bury, plant'. Both, of course, are spelled "toca". Although many Spaniards prefer to spell it that way, I prefer to spell the long vowels with an uppercase 'O' character. Hence "toka" means chase (with a little 'o') while "tOka" (with a big 'o') means plant. As soon as I'm done deciphering the Thesaurus file for WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS), I'll be putting together a thesaurus file with long vowels marked accordingly (so there's no need for diacritical marks like macrons). Now, that may not mean much to your Microsoft "Word" fanatics, but to the rest of the world, we will have something much more practical and useful to use. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Fri Nov 24 22:38:33 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:38:33 -0600 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matthew, Long vowel notation is a problem that has never been resolved, partly because of the different communities involved. Nahua writers have never given importance to marking vowel length (except those who work for linguists). The few colonial texts which show vowel length use a macron. And today only professionals working on language documentation projects consider it important, which it is for that purpose (they tend to use a semi-colon). So the question is, Why do you want to show long vowels in your file? If it's for reference, that's fine. If it's for everyday writing, than neither semicolons nor capital letters will work, because they are used for other purposes. I like to use macrons for language documentation because of their tradition, but as you imply, they come out as rubbish when most people open the file. At this time I don't think it's possible to come up with an answer that all participants will embrace. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx  On Nov 24, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Michael McCafferty wrote: > | There are not many, but more than that. Joe, do you have a list? > | One common verb contrast that comes to mind is /toka/ 'follow, > chase' > | but /tooka/ 'bury, plant'. Both, of course, are spelled "toca". > > Although many Spaniards prefer to spell it that way, I prefer to > spell the long vowels with an uppercase 'O' character. Hence > "toka" means chase (with a little 'o') while "tOka" (with a big 'o') > means plant. As soon as I'm done deciphering the Thesaurus file for > WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS), I'll be putting together a thesaurus file > with long vowels marked accordingly (so there's no need for > diacritical marks like macrons). > > Now, that may not mean much to your Microsoft "Word" fanatics, but > to the rest of the world, we will have something much more practical > and useful to use. > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Nov 25 01:37:56 2006 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:37:56 -0600 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For publication, I think macrons look much neater, plus they help newcomers to relate texts to Andrews' vocabulary (in the *Workbook* of the revised addition of his *Introduction to classical Nahuatl) and Karttunen's *Analytical dictionary of Nahuatl*. They are a real nuisance to type, though. I like Paul de Wolf's solution, used in his *Diccionario español-náhuatl* (México/La Paz, Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México/Fideicomiso Teixidor/Universidad Autónoma de Baja California Sur, 2003). He just hits the vowel key twice for the long vowels. It looks strange at first, but its logic is evident. This has the advantage of not being ambiguous, unlike colons and capitals. I'm going to offer this option to my students next semester, since several have complained that fighting the software distracted them from focusing on linguistic issues. (I highly recommend de Wolf's dictionary, by the way; it's a massive, comprehensive lexicon that integrates most of the major vocabularies, restoring long vowels and saltillos wherever possible, with access being through the Spanish translations.) -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Matthew Montchalin Enviado el: Viernes, 24 de Noviembre de 2006 04:05 p.m. Para: Michael McCafferty CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Hello On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Michael McCafferty wrote: | There are not many, but more than that. Joe, do you have a list? | One common verb contrast that comes to mind is /toka/ 'follow, chase' | but /tooka/ 'bury, plant'. Both, of course, are spelled "toca". Although many Spaniards prefer to spell it that way, I prefer to spell the long vowels with an uppercase 'O' character. Hence "toka" means chase (with a little 'o') while "tOka" (with a big 'o') means plant. As soon as I'm done deciphering the Thesaurus file for WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS), I'll be putting together a thesaurus file with long vowels marked accordingly (so there's no need for diacritical marks like macrons). Now, that may not mean much to your Microsoft "Word" fanatics, but to the rest of the world, we will have something much more practical and useful to use. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Nov 25 14:14:12 2006 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 09:14:12 -0500 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: <45671890.3080305@em.uni-frankfurt.de> Message-ID: Henry's description of the language situation, perceived mutual intelligibility, and all is the best synthesis I have seen. And to my mind it is spot on accurate too. Fran Karttunen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Nov 25 14:42:41 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 09:42:41 -0500 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here here. Or hear hear. Michael Quoting Frances Karttunen : > Henry's description of the language situation, perceived mutual > intelligibility, and all is the best synthesis I have seen. And to > my mind it is spot on accurate too. > > Fran Karttunen > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Nov 25 19:42:00 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:42:00 -0600 Subject: long vowel notation Message-ID: > Listeros, > The use of the double vowel to represent length can be confusing > for variants that tend not to eliminate one of two vowels that come > together at a morpheme boundary. In Huastecan Nahuatl we have, for > example, niitztoc (ni-itztoc), "I am [estar]"; quiittah " (qui- > ittah), "they see him-her-it"; mooholinia (mo-oholinia), "it moves". John > On Nov 24, 2006, at 7:37 PM, David Wright wrote: > John > >> For publication, I think macrons look much neater, plus they help >> newcomers >> to relate texts to Andrews' vocabulary (in the *Workbook* of the >> revised >> addition of his *Introduction to classical Nahuatl) and Karttunen's >> *Analytical dictionary of Nahuatl*. They are a real nuisance to type, >> though. I like Paul de Wolf's solution, used in his *Diccionario >> español-náhuatl* (México/La Paz, Instituto de Investigaciones >> Históricas, >> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México/Fideicomiso Teixidor/ >> Universidad >> Autónoma de Baja California Sur, 2003). He just hits the vowel key >> twice for >> the long vowels. It looks strange at first, but its logic is >> evident. This >> has the advantage of not being ambiguous, unlike colons and >> capitals. I'm >> going to offer this option to my students next semester, since >> several have >> complained that fighting the software distracted them from >> focusing on >> linguistic issues. (I highly recommend de Wolf's dictionary, by >> the way; >> it's a massive, comprehensive lexicon that integrates most of the >> major >> vocabularies, restoring long vowels and saltillos wherever >> possible, with >> access being through the Spanish translations.) >> >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl- >> bounces at lists.famsi.org] >> En nombre de Matthew Montchalin >> Enviado el: Viernes, 24 de Noviembre de 2006 04:05 p.m. >> Para: Michael McCafferty >> CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Hello >> >> On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Michael McCafferty wrote: >> | There are not many, but more than that. Joe, do you have a list? >> | One common verb contrast that comes to mind is /toka/ 'follow, >> chase' >> | but /tooka/ 'bury, plant'. Both, of course, are spelled "toca". >> >> Although many Spaniards prefer to spell it that way, I prefer to >> spell the long vowels with an uppercase 'O' character. Hence >> "toka" means chase (with a little 'o') while "tOka" (with a big 'o') >> means plant. As soon as I'm done deciphering the Thesaurus file for >> WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS), I'll be putting together a thesaurus file >> with long vowels marked accordingly (so there's no need for >> diacritical marks like macrons). >> >> Now, that may not mean much to your Microsoft "Word" fanatics, but >> to the rest of the world, we will have something much more practical >> and useful to use. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Nov 25 21:20:26 2006 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:20:26 -0600 Subject: Long vowel notation Message-ID: Estimado John: Thanks for your input. I have one doubt: Does the lack of vowel ellision in your examples produce a result that sounds different from long vowels, perhaps a syllable boundary between the two like vowels, distinguished by stress? I suppose this would be harder to hear in the last example. Saludos, David ****************************** Listeros, The use of the double vowel to represent length can be confusing for variants that tend not to eliminate one of two vowels that come together at a morpheme boundary. In Huastecan Nahuatl we have, for example, niitztoc (ni-itztoc), "I am [estar]"; quiittah " (qui-ittah), "they see him-her-it"; mooholinia (mo-oholinia), "it moves". John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Nov 25 21:40:48 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:40:48 -0600 Subject: Long vowel notation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, The sound is definitely two syllables, much different from the sound of a long vowel. John On Nov 25, 2006, at 3:20 PM, David Wright wrote: > Estimado John: > > Thanks for your input. I have one doubt: > > Does the lack of vowel ellision in your examples produce a result > that sounds different from long vowels, perhaps a syllable boundary > between the two like vowels, distinguished by stress? I suppose > this would be harder to hear in the last example. > > Saludos, > > David > > ****************************** > Listeros, > The use of the double vowel to represent length can be confusing > for variants that tend not to eliminate one of two vowels that come > together at a morpheme boundary. In Huastecan Nahuatl we have, for > example, niitztoc (ni-itztoc), "I am [estar]"; quiittah " (qui- > ittah), "they see him-her-it"; mooholinia (mo-oholinia), "it moves". > John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lingoman at mac.com Sat Nov 25 22:12:57 2006 From: lingoman at mac.com (Doug Barr) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:12:57 -0800 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Warning! Incoming barrage of questions! :-D On Nov 24, 2006, at 6:27 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: >> 2. Verbs with third-person subject and object that are of the same >> number, i.e. both singular or both plural - if there's only one noun >> argument, is there a default reading for subject or object? E.g. does >> "O:quitta in cihua:tl" mean "The woman saw him/her," "He/she saw the >> woman," or both/either? >> > > Fundamentally, it means both. It also can mean "the woman saw > them" (inanimate object plural). Interesting. In the other indigenous language I know something of - Halkomelem Salish - plurality is also not necessarily distinguished in third person, however a single noun argument is obligatorily read as subject, so a sentence like the following - Ni kwolextos kwtho smoyoth. Ni kwolex-t-os kwtho smoyoth. Be.there shoot-[transitive]-[3rd.person.agent] the.definite.but.not.currently.visible deer. - would HAVE to mean, "The deer shot him/her/them," not "He/she/they shot the deer" as the sense would indicate. Another question on that topic - and I do apologize if this has been answered previously, I don't have any texts as yet and haven't so far had a lot of luck searching the archives - I understand that canonical word order in Classical Nahuatl was (probably) VSO, but in a sentence like "O:quitta in cihua:tl in oquichtli" is the woman seeing the man, or the man seeing the woman, or both? (Halkomelem is generally VSO but can be VOS, and distinguishes by sense, context or use of subject-oriented demonstratives before what is to be read as subject). Pronunciation - how aspirated are the stop consonants in Nahuatl? My impression from the one recording of a modern dialect I've found is, not or not very. And, if you have what is orthographically a double consonant like the -tt- in "o:quitta," is it treated as a geminate consonant and just held for a beat, like Italian "letto" or Japanese "katta," or are the two consonants rearticulated? The latter is what Halkomelem does, -tt- would be articulated as two 't' sounds in a row, no different that -kt- or anything else - Salish phonotactics and morphology are just generally terrifying. :-D Thanks again to all who answered, I do appreciate it. This language is fascinating! Doug _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Tue Nov 28 17:31:17 2006 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:31:17 -0500 Subject: Long vowel notation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear listeros, Use of double vowels to represent length is problematical with sequences of double vowels, particularly in reduplication. e.g., a:polaki can reduplicate in Ameyaltepec as a:a:polaki or aa:apolaki (the h is lost word internally in Ameylatepec). With double letters one would write aaaapolaki and aaapolaki A sequence of three vowels would be ambiguous between VV: and V:V Also, there are cases of double vowels iich ´his or her maguey hemp´ koo:lo:tl type of tree Guazuma ulmifolia. I use colons for typing and macrons for writing by hand (e.g., students on the blackboard) and in publication. I have found that beginning students usually write the segments without vowel length and then add length after going over the words. Macrons are best for this. The problem is searching for macroned vowels in electronic format, as well as typing. Finally, in Oapan there are tones, so long vowels are distinguished by tone a:polaki á:polaki (the iterative form, in other variants aha:polaki) jda Quoting David Wright : > Estimado John: > > Thanks for your input. I have one doubt: > > Does the lack of vowel ellision in your examples produce a result that > sounds different from long vowels, perhaps a syllable boundary between the > two like vowels, distinguished by stress? I suppose this would be harder to > hear in the last example. > > Saludos, > > David > > ****************************** > Listeros, > The use of the double vowel to represent length can be confusing for > variants that tend not to eliminate one of two vowels that come together at > a morpheme boundary. In Huastecan Nahuatl we have, for example, niitztoc > (ni-itztoc), "I am [estar]"; quiittah " (qui-ittah), "they see him-her-it"; > mooholinia (mo-oholinia), "it moves". > John > -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mylne21 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 29 18:30:13 2006 From: mylne21 at hotmail.com (D. Mylne) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:30:13 -0700 Subject: Long vowel notation In-Reply-To: <20061128123117.bt9bn7ck0c84k8s0@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From amoxtli at earthlink.net Thu Nov 30 00:21:52 2006 From: amoxtli at earthlink.net (Walter Koenig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:21:52 -0800 Subject: Panocha and Panoltia Message-ID: Greetings, A friend has asked me whether there is a connection between the Mexican Spanish word panocha = A coarse grade of Mexican sugar, crude reference to women's genitalia. and Nahuatl panoltia = to pass, convey something, someone from one place to another. Evidently, several scholars, including historian Emma Pérez, assert that panocha has a Nahuatl etymology. Can anybody confirm or disprove this? Thanks for your help. Best Wishes, Walter O. Koenig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Thu Nov 30 16:40:00 2006 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:40:00 -0800 Subject: Panocha and Panoltia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sp. ‘panocha’ from Na. ‘panoltia’ seems rather improbable. First, this would require a transitive verb to be borrowed as a noun and a curious semantic extension. ‘Panocha’ is also found outside of Mexico, at least in reference to “vulva” (for example, Puerto Rico I believe). Rather, it seems ‘panocha’ has a good old-fashioned Romance etymology, with cognates at least in Italian (pannocchia) and French (panouille), which mean “ear of corn”. According to the Italian etymological dictionary I have at the house, ‘pannocchia’ comes from vulgar Latin *panucula(m) referring to “a millet spike”. With the discovery of the Americas, “millet spike” was extended to “ear of corn”. >>From there we can perhaps speculate that the “coarse sugar” may have come from a corn sugar? “Sugar” then can find an well-trodden extension into “vulva”. Incidentally, Fr. ‘panouille’ is also used in slang as an insult for “idiot” (“abruti”). I suspect ‘panouille’ is something of a historical word for “ear of corn”; I’ve always heard the expression “épi de mais’ in French. ‘Pannocchia’ however is the standard word for “ear of corn” in Italian; I don’t believe it is used in Italian slang. --- Walter Koenig wrote: > Greetings, > > A friend has asked me whether there is a connection > between the > Mexican Spanish word panocha = A coarse grade of > Mexican sugar, crude > reference to women's genitalia. > and Nahuatl panoltia = to pass, convey something, > someone from one > place to another. > > Evidently, several scholars, including historian > Emma Pérez, assert > that panocha has a Nahuatl etymology. Can anybody > confirm or disprove > this? > > Thanks for your help. > > Best Wishes, > > Walter O. Koenig > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Rickey456 at aol.com Thu Nov 30 21:10:50 2006 From: Rickey456 at aol.com (Rickey456 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:10:50 EST Subject: panocha Message-ID: From www.rae.es panocha. (Del lat. vulg. panucŭla, mazorca, y este del lat. panicŭla, dim. de panus, mazorca de hilo). 1. f. _panoja._ (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?LEMA=panoja&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC= No) 2. f. C. Rica. _empanada_ (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?LEMA=empanado&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC=No#0_2) (ǁ masa de pan rellena). 3. f. coloq. Cuba y El Salv. _vulva._ (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?LEMA=vulva&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC=No#0_1) 4. f. coloq. Cuba. _vagina._ (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?LEMA=vagina&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC=No#0_1) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rude at religion.ucsb.edu Thu Nov 30 23:42:56 2006 From: rude at religion.ucsb.edu (Rudy V. Busto) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:42:56 -0800 Subject: Panocha and Panoltia Message-ID: What a shock for a Chicano to open his email and see the "P" word in the subject line of the Nahuat-l list. As a teenager I was led to believe that panocha as a vulgar term for female genitalia was not, as the Spanish etymology suggests, related to corn, but to the sweetness of the brown sugar which shares the same name. Perhaps the cone shape of the sugar when it is manufactured is related to the "...vulgar Latin *panucula(m) referring to 'a millet spike'”. And if so, it makes the whole affair a rather freudian fantasy. Rudy Busto UC-Santa Barbara _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Thu Nov 2 09:43:43 2006 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 01:43:43 -0800 Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: | I've never heard of the *Analytic Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar,* | which you mention twice. I have Karttunen's *An Analytical Dictionary | of Nahuatl* and Sullivan's *Compendio de la Gramatica Nahuatl* | (which I understand exists in translation as the *Compendium of | Nahuatl Grammar*). Is there a new grammar out, or have you just | added a Karttunian adjective to Sullivan's classic (but | phonologically pre-Andrews) study? Whoooops, I guess my subconscious must have played a trick on my poor drowsy, sleepy fingers as they were trying to type the post that must have puzzled you. Anyway, not only do I have a very dog-eared copy of Thelma Sullivan's "Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar" (1988), but I also have a paperback copy of Frances Karttunen's "Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl" (1983), and how I wish they were hardbacked, as I am very hard on my books. As I've had these books for a few years, it seems a pity I am only now digging into them. It appears that I also have had, at my disposal if I were so inclined, a paperback by James Taggart, "Nahuat Myth and Social Structure" (first printing in paperback, 1997), but there's very little linguistic information in that work. It's more a sociological treatment. Back in the 1990s (and through 1991 or so), I had access to a native of Mexico (and self-titled student of Nahuatl), and that is how I learned to make the -tl sound in the "final" position, and for which I am very thankful. This is because the closest that comes to the -tl sound (for English speakers) is, arguably, the Ll sound in Welsh. Then on Monday, October 30th, I went to a local bookstore and bought James Lockhart's "Nahuatl as Written" (2001). On browsing through it, I consider it an excellent and highly desirable addition to my collection. The only complaint I have, is the same complaint I previously had: an expectation that I should have had some familiarity with the Spanish language, and Spanish orthography. In the preface to James Lockart's work, he writes: "If you feel the need of some grounding in pronunciation, you might turn first to Lesson 17, on orthographic matters. But you will do just as well knowing that the letters in general are pronounced much as in Spanish (for rare is the person who comes to Nahuatl without knowing some Spanish first), that ",c" represents [s] as in "soar," x stands for [sh] as in "shell," and /tl/ represents a single complex consonant, never making a syllable by itself. Stress is on the penultimate syllable of a word." Well, I am one of those rare individuals with a pretty good background in Classical Latin instead of a background of any kind in Spanish. (If I know a few parts of speech in Spanish, it is in spite of having studied Latin.) I think the choice of Spanish orthography is a huge detriment to my getting into the language, but I am persevering anyway. The Mexican native that taught me Nawatl had linguistically "compromised" reading/writing skills, except in his indian language (one of those Indian "dialectos"), and he just tried to sound out the words, and write them down phonetically, hoping I could follow him. In Lockhart's Chapter 17, he mentioned the various ways of writing a nasal consonant (usually by employing a superscript stroke of some kind over the preceding vowel). Needless to say, that little stroke usually represented the accusative form of a noun in Mediaeval Latin, but other times, with a single abbreviating stroke, represented the enclitic suffixes -que -ne or -ve, and very rarely the enclitic -ce. (Lockhart could have mentioned that, but he wasn't writing to those of us with a background in Latin instead of Spanish.) My objective in studying Classical Nawatl is to be able to read a few passages here and there, and perhaps write some. I also have dreams of writing and directing a vampire movie with a mostly Mexican cast, and it would be nice to have a Nawatl language option for DVD distributions. (Needless to say, I'd like to be able to *read* the stuff that I pay my translators to come up with, and that way I'll know if any of the translations are actually worth the money I put up for it. But time is on my side, and as I am not in a hurry, I'll get around to the movie treatment when I get around to it.) _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Fri Nov 3 01:39:15 2006 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 20:39:15 -0500 Subject: In memory of Bill Bright Message-ID: It occurs to me that the passing of Nahuatlahtoh William Bright may not have been noted on this list. Here is an announcement from the electronic bulletin of the Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas: * ELF establishes Bill Bright Memorial Award ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From Nick Emlen (emlen at haskins.yale.edu) 17 Oct 2006: We are saddened by the passing of Bill Bright, a long-time colleague and a prolific scholar. Bill's family has requested that memorial contributions be made to the Endangered Language Fund. We have created a fund that will enable the creation of the Bill Bright Award. This will help memorialize his many years of contributions to linguistics and his service to the profession as editor of Language (1966-87), Language in Society (1992-99), and the first edition of the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics, and as founding editor of Written Language and Literacy (1998-2003). From among the annual applications to the Endangered Language Fund's grant program, one successful project from those dealing with languages in the Americas or in South Asia will be selected. This will be the project that best combines Bill's areal interests -- North and Central America, South Asia -- with his topic interests: -- language description -- language and culture -- sociolinguistics -- writing systems -- creating culturally-acceptable orthographies for minority languages -- differences between written and oral language -- oral literatures and their poetics -- onomastics, toponyms and naming in general The Bill Bright project will receive a separate press release and an additional amount of money equal to 10% of the proposed budget. We hope that this supplement will allow for additional efforts to promote the work in the native speaker communities and with the general public. Please help us honor Bill's memory by sending a contribution to: The Endangered Language Fund 300 George Street, Suite 900 New Haven, CT 06511 Please make a note that this is in honor of Bill so that the funds can be ear-marked for this award. Online donations can be made at: https://www.networkforgood.org/donate/MakeDonation2.aspx? ORGID2=061459207 Please put "Bill Bright Fund" in the Designation area. --Nick Emlen Endangered Language Fund emlen at haskins.yale.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rcrapo at hass.usu.edu Thu Nov 2 22:36:11 2006 From: rcrapo at hass.usu.edu (Richley) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 15:36:11 -0700 Subject: Oyome Message-ID: Can anyone offer a translation of the place name Oyome (the legendary home of Xolotl)? Richley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 3 11:14:24 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 06:14:24 -0500 Subject: In memory of Bill Bright In-Reply-To: <4c0d2854239c6b792015bba4d40777a8@comcast.net> Message-ID: There was also an obituary in the New York Times last week, maybe on Tuesday. Quoting Frances Karttunen : > It occurs to me that the passing of Nahuatlahtoh William Bright may > not have been noted on this list. > > Here is an announcement from the electronic bulletin of the Society > for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas: > > * ELF establishes Bill Bright Memorial Award > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > From Nick Emlen (emlen at haskins.yale.edu) 17 Oct 2006: > > We are saddened by the passing of Bill Bright, a long-time colleague > and a prolific scholar. Bill's family has requested that memorial > contributions be made to the Endangered Language Fund. We have created > a fund that will enable the creation of the Bill Bright Award. This > will help memorialize his many years of contributions to linguistics and > his service to the profession as editor of Language (1966-87), Language in > Society (1992-99), and the first edition of the International Encyclopedia > of Linguistics, and as founding editor of Written Language and Literacy > (1998-2003). From among the annual applications to the Endangered Language > Fund's grant program, one successful project from those dealing with > languages in the Americas or in South Asia will be selected. This will > be the project that best combines Bill's areal interests -- North and > Central America, South Asia -- with his topic interests: > > -- language description > -- language and culture > -- sociolinguistics > -- writing systems > -- creating culturally-acceptable orthographies for minority languages > -- differences between written and oral language > -- oral literatures and their poetics > -- onomastics, toponyms and naming in general > > The Bill Bright project will receive a separate press release and an > additional amount of money equal to 10% of the proposed budget. We hope > that this supplement will allow for additional efforts to promote the > work in the native speaker communities and with the general public. > > Please help us honor Bill's memory by sending a contribution to: > > The Endangered Language Fund > 300 George Street, Suite 900 > New Haven, CT 06511 > > Please make a note that this is in honor of Bill so that the funds can be > ear-marked for this award. > > Online donations can be made at: > > https://www.networkforgood.org/donate/MakeDonation2.aspx? ORGID2=061459207 > > Please put "Bill Bright Fund" in the Designation area. > > --Nick Emlen > Endangered Language Fund > emlen at haskins.yale.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Fri Nov 3 13:25:33 2006 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:25:33 -0500 Subject: In memory of Bill Bright Message-ID: Here is the NYT obit for Bill Bright: October 23, 2006 William Bright, 78, Expert In Indigenous Languages By MARGALIT FOX William Bright, an internationally renowned linguist who spent more than half a century inventorying the vanishing riches of the indigenous languages of the United States, died on Oct. 15 in Louisville, Colo. He was 78 and lived in Boulder, Colo. The cause was a brain tumor, said his daughter, Susie Bright, the well-known writer of erotica. At his death, Mr. Bright was professor adjoint of linguistics at the University of Colorado, Boulder. He was also emeritus professor of linguistics and anthropology at the University of California, Los Angeles, where he taught from 1959 to 1988. An authority on the native languages and cultures of California, Mr. Bright was known in particular for his work on Karuk (also spelled Karok), an American Indian language from the northwest part of the state. Shortly before his death, in recognition of his efforts to document and preserve the language, he was made an honorary member of the Karuk tribe, the first outsider to be so honored. His books include ''American Indian Linguistics and Literature'' (Mouton, 1984); ''A Coyote Reader'' (University of California, 1993); ''1,500 California Place Names: Their Origin and Meaning'' (University of California, 1998); and ''Native American Placenames of the United States'' (University of Oklahoma, 2004). Mr. Bright's approach to the study of language was one seldom seen nowadays. With the ascendance of Noam Chomsky in the late 1950's, linguistics shifted its focus from documenting language as an artifact of human culture to analyzing it as a window onto human cognition. But to Mr. Bright, language was inseparable from its cultural context, which might include songs, poetry, stories and everyday conversation. And so, lugging unwieldy recording devices, he continued to make forays into traditional communities around the world, sitting down with native speakers and eliciting words, phrases and sentences. Among the languages on which he worked were Nahuatl, an Aztec language of Mexico; Cakchiquel, of Guatemala; Luise?o, Ute, Wishram and Yurok, languages of the Western United States; and Lushai, Kannada, Tamil and Tulu, languages of the Indian subcontinent. William Oliver Bright was born on Aug. 13, 1928, in Oxnard, Calif. He received a bachelor's degree in linguistics from the University of California, Berkeley, in 1949. After a stint in Army intelligence, he earned a doctorate in linguistics from Berkeley in 1955. He began his fieldwork among the Karuk in 1949. At the time, their language was a tattered remnant of its former splendor, spoken by just a handful of elders. Since encounters with Europeans had rarely ended well for the Karuk, the community had little reason to welcome an outsider. But Bill Bright was deferential, curious and, at 21, scarcely more than a boy. He was also visibly homesick. The Karuk grandmothers took him in, baking him cookies and cakes and sharing their language. They named him Uhyanapatanvaanich, ''little word-asker.'' In 1957, Mr. Bright published ''The Karok Language'' (University of California), a detailed description of the language and its structure. Last year, the tribe published a Karuk dictionary, compiled by Mr. Bright and Susan Gehr. Today, Karuk children learn the language in tribal schools. Mr. Bright was divorced twice and widowed twice. From his first marriage, he is survived by his daughter, Susannah (known as Susie), of Santa Cruz, Calif. Also surviving are his wife, Lise Menn, a professor of linguistics at the University of Colorado; two stepsons, Stephen Menn of Montreal and Joseph Menn of Los Angeles; one grandchild; and two step-grandchildren. His other books include ''The World's Writing Systems'' (Oxford University, 1996), which he edited with Peter T. Daniels; and the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics (Oxford University, 1992), of which he was editor in chief. From 1966 to 1987, Mr. Bright was the editor of Language, the field's flagship journal. The professor was also a meticulous reader of all his daughter's manuscripts. He displayed the finished products -- among them ''Susie Bright's Sexual State of the Union'' (Simon & Schuster, 1997) and ''Mommy's Little Girl: On Sex, Motherhood, Porn and Cherry Pie'' (Thunder's Mouth Press, 2003) -- proudly on his shelves at home. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 05:03:07 2006 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 21:03:07 -0800 Subject: Nahuatl scholarship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Excuse my delay in getting back; its been a bit rough here in Oaxaca recently and I have been distracted. Ben, already knowledgeable about New Philology (NP), asked for biographical information, but also for suggestions as to ?persistent problems, questions and unexplored avenues that remain?. My message attempted to provide ideas that build on the important work of NP, but--as far as I?m aware--have generally not been unexplored in the NP literature. I truly hope I didn?t give anyone the impression that I consider NP to have been operating with blinders. This is not at all my belief. I don?t think Lockhart?s ?The Nahuas after the Conquest? has ever presumed to be ?the be-all and end-all? (as Barry said) of colonial Nahua scholarship. But it is unquestionably a tremendous advance. I have come back to that book over and over again and my appreciation for it has only grown. I also hope nobody took my message to say that NP has been lazy in its investigations. Again, this could not be farther from the truth. NP has been an exceptionally productive school of history. We are ?only human? (as Barry said); it certainly would be unfair and hypocritical to expect then a superhuman, all-encompassing research production. Again, my message was not directed towards established investigators as a criticism for not having done more things; it was directed towards someone who is about to begin a PhD investigation. I believe its important for someone who is about to set off on such an investigation to consider actively ways to expand the already existing research. Perhaps others here have some ideas as well and would consider posting them here. I for one would be most interested to read them. I found John?s message very interesting. Enormous work needs to be done in the descriptive linguistics and documentation of Mexican languages. Moreover, it is becoming increasingly apparent that the continued internal colonialism of indigenous people in Mexico needs to be dealt with urgently. Educational programs such as John?s help do that. My congratulations to him for having taken up these challenges. Based on what has been published over the past three decades by those claiming to be working in this school, I would describe NP as the study of colonial history of indigenous peoples primarily through the close reading of colonial language texts in their own languages (most notably Nahuatl, Yucatec and Mixtec). Is this characterization fair? John, how do you see your work within the tradition of NP? To rephrase, and hopefully clarify, my previous message, I?d make the following off-the-cuff suggestions for a PhD candidate interested in preparing a dissertation on Nahuatl-language sources. 1-Consider work on a local, (for example, municipal or mayordomia) archive. This can be a good way to understand Mexican archives and also will contribute directly to the protection of the documents themselves. 2-(Related to first) Consider lower-level indigenous institutions (mayordomias, secciones, barrios ) as a possible case study. Many of these institutions have left local archives with indigenous-language documentation which, as far as I?m aware, almost nobody has looked at. 3-Consider ways in which knowledge from other disciplines can contribute to the study of these texts. The issue here is how to avoid the constraints of disciplinary classifications?-while respecting the necessary differentiation and specialization of the social sciences?-to arrive at new, insightful and useful interpretations of social reality. Ideally this would have interdisciplinarity be a unifying activity drawing together divided knowledge to address specific problem or question. The interpretation of texts (i.e. philology, new or old) lends itself to such an interdisciplinary approach. 4-Consider indigenous history after the 18th century. 5-Consider incorporating modern indigenous oral literature, speech genres and rhetoric into the study of older documents. 6-Spend some time living in an indigenous community if you can. Many other tasks are necessary for the development a more refined Mesoamerican philology. Many basic tools are only just being made now. The publication of critical editions (like Barry is doing) is crucial. The painstaking work of making morphological or lexical concordances (like Joe Campbell is doing) is invaluable. Establishing censes of known indigenous-language documentation (like Frederick Schwaller has done and Michel Oudijk and Maria Casta?eda are doing) is also essential. Digitalization of the texts (like Stephanie and the U Oregon team is doing with the wired humanities project), the preservation of texts, the creation of text-based grammars, etymological dictionaries the list goes on and on. And these are just the tools based on the older written sources! This barely touches on the living cultures. But perhaps these important tasks don?t make for a good dissertation topic on Nahua history. I am in complete agreement with John that we should make the training and support of indigenous professionals in history (linguistics, archaeology, sociology, etc) a priority; I would argue we should make it our foremost priority. But, of course, it is not reasonable to expect much advance on this from a PhD student who has yet to determine his dissertation topic. Anyway, thanks for the interesting comments. Mike Swanton --- Amapohuani at aol.com wrote: > Listeros: > > I feel that Michael's comments are very thoughtful > and I am glad that he has > shared them with the list. > > I speak only for myself but I especially like what > I take to be his > well-expressed suggestions about aggressively > reaching out and incorporating into all > of our work whatever is useful and illuminating [and > I mean that in both the > sense of those doing the work and their audiences, > the two not always being so > different]. I share that sentiment, only pointing > out that individuals and > even small groups of collaborating scholars can only > do so much. For example, > Louise Burkhart and I are going to end up spending > twelve very arduous years > putting out the four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set. And > currently I am on a longterm > fellowship at the Newberry Library in Chicago > working on some remarkable, and > basically unknown, Carochi papers. I am going to > work up a critical edition: > and I conservatively estimate three more years on > this project alone! I can > imagine doing more, learning how to do more, and > wish I could do more, but > unfortunately I am only human. So if new folks want > to join in the work and bring > new perspectives and skill sets, IMHO, the more the > merrier! > > I would only add an observation. I remember when > xeroxes of a few chapters of > Jim's THE NAHUAS AFTER THE CONQUEST were sitting in > boxes at UCLA circa 1990 > to be read by his grad students. One of those > students, Kevin Terraciano, has > taken Jim's place at UCLA, and Kevin's own survey of > the Mixtecs is now the > equivalent for that group of what Jim's is for early > Nahuas. That people might > now find that Jim's THE NAHUAS is not the be-all and > end-all [I never thought > it was or was meant to be but appreciated it for > helping speed the rest of us > on our way] and that more work in many directions is > necessary and feasible, I > find both fascinating and a bit funny. Whatever it > is called, Early Latin > American Studies, the New Philology [as opposed to > the old and now-displaced > one?], Ethnohistory, mainstream this or cutting-edge > that, work on early Nahuatl > texts is very v ery far from being even modestly > 'finished.' It is not an > 'accomplished fact' sitting on the 'road of > progress' getting in the way but, to my > way of thinking, a constantly moving target -- note > that Louise and I have > effectively made Jim's discussion of early Nahuatl > theater very thin and dated, > but Jim's work is still very valuable in many > respects even as people add it > to, modify it, and even replace it. In fact, on a > personal note I must say that > I do not think I will get to see much more than > modest advances in my lifetime > just on the textual corpus alone, not to mention all > the others directions > and projects that Michael lists. > > Again, I thank Michael for sharing his thoughts with > us and wish him well in > his future endeavors. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry D. Sell > > In a message dated 10/27/06 8:00:26 AM, > mwswanton at yahoo.com writes: > > > > > > Lockhart??s "New Philology" clearly represents an > > enduring contribution to understanding indigenous > > culture during Spanish colonial rule. It has > > contributed significantly to the view that > cultural > > change during that time was not the simple > > displacement of indigenous culture, but rather > > functioned through already existing indigenous > > mechanisms and ways of understanding. It is a > > extremely important historical school. There are > many > > consequences to their work, which provides an > > important base for all future investigation. I??m > a big > > fan of New Philology. > > > > I believe however that it can, and should, be > > expanded. The following suggestions come to mind: > > 1. The selection of sources. Most of the major > sources > > used by the new philologists are located in > national > > or foreign archives and libraries. Very little > work > > has been carried out in more local archives, I > suspect > > because of their poor organization and difficult > > access. The mayordom$(D+?a archives are > practically > > untouched. A worthwhile project you might consider > is > > the organization of a local archive. Not only > might > > that provide a solid case study, the basis for > which > > major synthetic studies are built, but it will > > contribute to the preservation of the Nahuas > > historical patrimony. > > > > 2. Interdisciplinary study. In their method, the > new > > philologists?? study ends where the text ends. The > > contextualization of the Nahua ancestral documents > > reaches little beyond the texts themselves. It is > > uncommon that data from archaeology, cultural > > geography, linguistics, contemporary social > structure, > > historical architecture, etc. are ever brought to > bear > > on issues raised in the texts under examination. > Thus, > > in his major synthetic study, Lockhart dedicates a > > whole section to the architectural layout of > colonial > > households, yet never considers the mass of > > archaeological data that directly relates to this > > issue. Such data can potentially enrich the > reading > > and interpretation of the texts considerably, but > its > > use would involve transgressing disciplinary > > boundaries and leaving the domain of traditional, > > document-based history. Mesoamerica is a rewarding > > area for interdisciplinary study. > > > > 3. The study of post-Independent Mexico Nahuas. > New > > Philology invariably studies texts that are > temporally > > limited to the centuries of Spanish colonial rule. > > Writing in indigenous languages continued after > the > > colony, and, though considerably different in its > > content and audience, this too reflects social > > realities of Indigenous Mexico. Moreover, in > Mexico > > and Guatemala today, many Native Americans > continue to > > produce texts, both written and oral, in their > > languages. While recognizing continuity in > indigenous > > ways of understanding during the dramatic changes > from > > the precolonial to colonial periods, New Philology > has > > not incorporated indigenous cultural continuity > after > > 1821 into their investigations. The great > Hellenist > > Milman Parry, significantly changed how we > understand > > the classical Greek texts by studying early 20th > > century oral literature in Yugoslavia. I am > convinced > > the study of modern oral literature, speech genres > and > > rhetorical devises would shed much light on the > older > > texts. In general, it has been my experience that > > trying to understand the present day realities of > > indigenous life will help inspire and ground your > work > > in new and unexpected ways. > > > > Saludos, > > Michael Swanton > > > > > > --- b.leeming at rivers.org wrote: > > > > > > > > Listeros, > > > > > > I posted an inquiry to the list back in July > asking > > > for information on who > > > is currently doing scholarship on the corpus of > > > 16th-18th century > > > Nahuatl-language documents that is the focus of > much > > > of Lockhart$(D+$"os work. > > > While I received a few responses (Schwaller, > Wood, > > > Gilchrist $(D+$?? thank you!), > > > my hunch is that there may be more of you > actively > > > reading posts now that > > > the academic year is in full swing and so I > would > > > like to pose part of my > > > original query again. > > > > > > In particular, it is the second part of my > question > > > (which was not > > > responded to) that I would like to resubmit. I > > > wrote: > > > > > > $(D+$)MAs a soon-to-be doctoral student who is > hoping to > > > focus his research on > > > Nahuatl documents such as these, I am interested > in > > > determining what are > > > the persistent problems, questions and > unexplored > > > avenues that remain. Or, > > > put another way, where would you advise a > would-be > > > scholar who wants to > > > work with Nahuatl source material turn his > > > attention?$(D+$?? > > > > > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated! > > > > > > Ben Leeming > > > The Rivers School > > > Weston, MA > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Nov 7 21:38:37 2006 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 16:38:37 -0500 Subject: Florentine Codex Message-ID: From: "Walter Koenig" Date: Tue, November 7, 2006 2:56 pm Greetings, I recently purchased two twelve volume sets of Bernardino de Sahag?n's Florentine Codex translated with notes by Charles E. Dibble and Arthur J.O. Anderson and learned that the stock is running low at the Distribution Center. There are only a maximum of thirty copies of each volume remaining and only seven copies of volume eleven. According to the information I have, it is doubtful that the University of Utah Press will reprint the Florentine Codex any time soon. Even if purchasing the set from used the various on-line book sites one can expect to pay between $600 to over $1,200 fora complete set, so now is the time to buy it new. Here is the link to University of Utah Press: http://www.uofupress.com/ Best Wishes, Walter O. Koenig _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mijobas at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 01:59:50 2006 From: mijobas at yahoo.com (Michael Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:59:50 -0800 Subject: Florentine Codex In-Reply-To: <1281.72.255.7.168.1162935517.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Might this also be the time to suggest that Dibble and Anderson should be scanned, online, searchable and free? Does anyone think U of U Press might go for that? Best, Michael Stevenson --- "John F. Schwaller" wrote: > > > From: "Walter Koenig" > Date: Tue, November 7, 2006 2:56 pm > > Greetings, > > I recently purchased two twelve volume sets of > Bernardino de > Sahag?n's Florentine Codex translated with notes by > Charles E. Dibble > and Arthur J.O. Anderson and learned that the stock > is running low at > the Distribution Center. There are only a maximum of > thirty copies of > each volume remaining and only seven copies of > volume eleven. > According to the information I have, it is doubtful > that the > University of Utah Press will reprint the Florentine > Codex any time > soon. > > Even if purchasing the set from used the various > on-line book sites > one can expect to pay between $600 to over $1,200 > fora complete set, > so now is the time to buy it new. > > Here is the link to University of Utah Press: > http://www.uofupress.com/ > > Best Wishes, > > Walter O. Koenig > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get an Online or Campus degree Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's - in less than one year. http://www.findtherightschool.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Nov 14 21:42:48 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:42:48 -0600 Subject: cuatemitoc Message-ID: Listeros, I came across an interesting word today in Chicontepec Nahuatl. "cua:te:mitoc. ni." = "I have bump (chipote) on my head", or more literally, "I am head-swollen". First let's get "cua-" from "cua:itl", "head", out of the way. OK, the interesting thing is this. We have either the intransive "te:mi", "to fill up or swell", which should reduce to "te:n-"; or the causitive "te:mia", "to fill something up" or perhaps "to make something swell up", which should reduce to "te:mih-". On these two reduced forms you could then add the auxiliary "-toc" (- ti- ligature, plus the singular preterite-as-present form of the verb "o", "to be lying down"), which in the Huasteca means "to have done something (present perfect tense), or sometimes, by extension, to be in the state resulting from that action. Anyway, you would get either "cua:te:ntoc" ("cua:-" as adverb) or "cua:te:mihtoc" ("cua:-" as object). The problem is that the native speakers here insist that it is "cua:te:mitoc". Given the fact that class 2 verb reduction is a relatively recent phenomenon in the evolution of Nahuatl, and that peripheral variants, such as the Nahuatl of the Huasteca tend to conserve older forms, and that in the Huasteca (perhaps in other areas too) many verbs can be conjugated either as class 1 or class 2 with no difference in meaning (this is not the case with "te:mi" today), could we perhaps be seeing in "cua:te:mitoc" an older unreduced form of the verb "te:mi"? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jrabasa at calmail.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 15 23:54:28 2006 From: jrabasa at calmail.berkeley.edu (Jos=?ISO-8859-1?B?6SA=?=Rabasa) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:54:28 -0800 Subject: Mesoamerican time before and after the Spanish invasion In-Reply-To: <56576fe040b2372e688344b6f4c888c6@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Dear Listeros: I am writing to invite all those of you who reside in the Baya Area of thereabouts to a colloquium on "Meosamerican time before and after the Spanish invasion." I am enclosing the program below. Best wishes, Jose Rabasa, Chair Department of Spanish and Portuguese UC Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720 Tel. 510-642-2105 Fax 510- 642-69-57 Mesoamerican Time before and after the Spanish invasion Tuesday, November 21, 2006 Geballe Room, Townsend Center for the Humanities, 120 Stevens Hall 9-10 Kathleen Davis (English, Princeton University) ??Times take their names from measure?: Periodization and Political Theology in the Work of Bede? Discussant: Felipe Rojas 10:15-11:15 Gordon Brotherston (Spanish and Portuguese, Stanford) ?The Feathered Crown: The Mesoamerican Era and Gregorian Calendar Reform" Discussant: Heather McMichael 11:30-12:30 Johanna Broda (Instituto de Investigaciones Hist?ricas, UNAM) "Time and Space in Ancient Mesoamerica" Discussant: Beatriz Reyes-Cort?s 1:30-2:30 Johannes Neurath (Museo Nacional de Antropolog?a, INAH) "A 17th Century Cora Calendar Compared to Contemporary Huichol and Cora Practices" Discussant: Chrissy Arce 2:45-3:45 Jos? Rabasa (Spanish and Portuguese, UC Berkeley) ?The Colonial Divide? Discussant: Stephanie Schmidt 4-5 Jes?s Rodr?guez-Velasco (Spanish and Portuguese, UC Berkeley) "Entropy" Discussant: Seth Kimmel 5:45-6:30 Assessment of colloquium Semmycolon (Seminario de Estudios Medievales, Modernos y Coloniales) brings together a multidisciplinary group of lecturers and graduate students to conduct research into culture, literature, arts, history, and politics from the Middle Ages to the early 18th Century in both the Western and the Colonial worlds. Sponsored by: The Townsend Center for the Humanities, The Center for Latin American Studies (CLAS), and the Departments of Spanish and Portuguese, Medieval Studies, and Anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 17 01:06:22 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 20:06:22 -0500 Subject: cuatemitoc Message-ID: MY SERVER SLIPPED: I thought that I was replying both to John and the Nahuat-l group, but I checked and saw that this message went only to John, so here is a carbon copy of it (risking a certain amount of unintelligibility with a phrase like "carbon copy", but we still "dial" someone up to talk in this push-button age). Joe ................ John, Your question caused me to oninocuatatacac quite a bit. I still don't have an answer, but I *do* have a question about verbs like "cua:te:mitoc" in Chicontepec Nahuatl. In "older" Nahuatl (sometimes called "classical" or even "Classical"), the "causative -a" suffix can be added to intransitive verbs and no deletion of the verb stem final vowel takes place (e.g., aqui-a, capa:ni-a, chipi:ni-a, coyo:ni-a, pozo:ni-a, tlami-a, tzili:ni-a, xiti:ni-a, etc.), but when the causative -a suffix is added to certain other intranstive verb, the verb stem final vowel is deleted (e.g., coto:ni --> coto:na, mani -- mana, te:mi --> te:ma, tlapa:ni --> tlapa:na, to:mi --> to:ma, etc.). In Chicontepec Nahuatl, does the second set of cases not occur? That is, does the addition of causative -a result in all "-ia" transitive verbs and no verbs that end in "consonant-a"? I label the two classes of causative "caus08" and "caus09", respectively, and I've included some examples below as reminding questions. Iztayohmeh, Joe Stems that take Caus08 aqui calaqui capa:ni xaxa:ni chacua:ni chala:ni chapa:ni chipi:ni chito:ni chopo:ni como:ni coxo:ni coyo:ni cuala:ni cuepo:ni cuetla:ni cueyo:ni hualani huito:ni ilaqui molo:ni o:li:ni paya:ni * petla:ni peto:ni pexo:ni peyo:ni pitzi:ni polo:ni poto:ni pozo:ni queloni tecui:ni tei:ni ti:li:ni tlami tlatzi:ni tomo:ni * topo:ni tzapi:ni tzicui:ni tzili:ni tzomo:ni tzopi:ni tzopo:ni tzotla:ni tzoyo:ni xahua:ni xama:ni xini xiti:ni xittomo:ni Stems that take Caus09 coto:ni huazomi huitomi ixtla:hui mani paya:ni * poxahui paya:hui te:mi tepe:hui tlapa:ni tlapohui to:mi tomo:ni * toxomi toya:hui tzaya:ni tzopi Both Caus08 and Caus09?? paya:ni * tomo:ni * paya:ni * tomo:ni * _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Fri Nov 17 01:37:30 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:37:30 -0600 Subject: cuatemitoc Message-ID: Hi Joe, First of all, yes, both kinds of causatives occur in Huastecan Nahuatl. Now here is what I got from the native speakers today: TE:MI > TE:MIC. Temi coxtalli (the bag fills up) Nictemitia coxtalli (I fill up the bag) Niquintemitilia inincoxtal Maria huan Pedro (I fill up their bag for Maria and Pedro) *The last two can be modified to say: Nictemitia coxtalli ica cintli. Niquintemitilia inincoxtal Maria huan Pedro ica cintli. TE:MA, nic. > TE:NQUI. Nictema cintli (I pour the corn) Nictemilia cintli coxtalli (I pour the corn in the bag). There also seems to be a double causative built on temitia, which the native speakers are a bit fuzzy on: Nictemitiltia coxtalli. One opinion is that it emphasizes the fact that the job was really done, while another says that while ?Nictemitia coxtalli? doesn?t require the specification of ?ica cintli?, the double form does: Nictemitiltia coxtalli ica cintli. John PS, By the way, what are causative forms 1-7> John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 17 03:35:33 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:35:33 -0500 Subject: cuatemitoc In-Reply-To: <148CC195-531D-4EFB-ABB9-B3E455358DAA@mac.com> Message-ID: > PS, By the way, what are causative forms 1-7> > John caus01 -ltia quicacahualtiaya they made him abandon it caus02 -tia ticapizmictia you starve him caus03 -itia nimitzittitia I show it to you caus04 -(i)lia quicualtilia he improves it caus05 ...? vacated number caus06 ihui --> oa ahui --> oa nitlacaloa I make a groove in something niccopichoa I scoop it out caus07 -altia nitetlacaxanaltia I loosen s.t. up for s.o. ... ... caus10 -ahuia quitlehcahuia he takes it up Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 17 18:36:00 2006 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 13:36:00 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Chichimecs Message-ID: The discussion on Aztlan about the origin of "Chichimeca" seemed to be of interest to Nahuat-l-eros, so I am copying to y'all. ************************ Here are some examples of chi:chi: extracted from the three Molina dictionaries and the Florentine Codex. "b." numbers indicate which Book of the Florentine the wood was found in; "f." numbers are irrelevant. "55m" and "71m" numbers refer to the obvious Molina dictionaries and the glosses are his. Entries with " , " and a following element show prefixes placed after the "stem" for facility in alphabetization. Iztayohmeh, Joe chichi , mo-. it is sucked. b.10 f.7 chichi , qui-. it suckles. b.10 f.7 chichi , ni. mamar. 55m-13 chichi , ni. mamar. 71m2-4 chichi , oc. ni?o o ni?a de teta. 71m1-16 chichi piltontli , oc. ni?o o ni?a de teta; ni?o; o ni?a de teta. 55m-14 chichi. they nurse. b.10 f.9 chichihua. ama que cria. 71m2-4 chichihua. nursemaid; nursing woman; she suckles (them). b.6 f.20 chichihual , i-. her breast. b.10 f.7 chichihual , in-. their breast. b.10 f.9 chichihual , to. las tetas. 71m2-25 chichihual neucpatli , tla. lamedor o xaraue. 71m2-20 chichihualaapilol. muger de grandes tetas; tetuda de grandes tetas. 71m2-4 chichihualatecomatl. tetuda de grandes tetas; muger de grandes tetas. 55m-19 chichihualayo , i-. her milk. b.11 f.16 chichihualayoatl. suero de leche; suero. 55m-18 chichihualayopatzquitl. suero de leche; suero. 55m-18 chichihualayotetzahualoni comitl. orza vaso de barro. 55m-15 chichihualayotl. leche generalmente; leche. 55m-12 chichihualayotl , ichiyahuaca in. nata que nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. 55m-14 chichihualayotl , iixtzotzoliuhca in. nata, que nada sobre la leche. 71m1-16 chichihualayotl , itlaixxo in. nata, que nada sobre la leche. 71m1-16 chichihualayotl , itlaixo in. nata de leche. >. 71m2-8 chichihualayotl. leche generalmente. 71m1-14 chichihualayotl. milk. b.10 f.8 chichihualayouh , in-. their milk. b.11 f.19 chichihualayoyo , i-. his milk. b.10 f.9 chichihualcahualtia , nite. destetar al ni?o. 55m-6 chichihualcahualtia , nite. destetar al ni?o. 71m2-4 chichihualcahualtilli , tla. destetado; ni?o destetado. 55m-6 chichihualcocoltic. . b.11 f.21 chichihualcuahuitl. . b.10 f.9 chichihuale. . b.11 f.11 chichihualhuia , tla-. she suckles. b.11 f.14 chichihualixamexcayotl. suero de leche; suero. 55m-18 chichihuallaxhualiztli. breast tumor. b.10 f.9 chichihualli. teta; vbre teta de parida. 55m-19 chichihualli. breast. b.10 f.7 chichihualmecapal. muger de grandes tetas; tetuda de grandes tetas. 71m2-4 chichihualmecapalli. woman of long breasts. b.10 f.7 chichihualnanatzihui , ni. retesar las tetas. 55m-17 chichihualnanatzihuiliztli. retesamiento de tetas. 55m-17 chichihualnanatzihui , ni. retesar las tetas. 71m1-18 chichihualnanatzihuiliztli. retesamiento de tetas. 71m1-18 chichihualnanatzihui , ni. tener retesadas las tetas. 71m2-4 chichihualnanatzihuiliztli. retesamiento assi. 71m2-4 chichihualpatzca , nitla. orde?ar. 71m1-16 chichihualpatzconi. herrada para orde?ar. 55m-11 chichihualtomahua , ni. retesar las tetas. 55m-17 chichihualtomahua , ni. retesarseme las tetas. 71m2-4 chichihualtomahualiztli. retesamiento de tetas. 71m2-4 chichihualtotomahualiztli. retesamiento de tetas. 55m-17 chichihualtzitzitzquia , nite. tentar los pechos, o tetas a otra. 71m2-4 chichihualtzitzitzquiliztli , te. el acto de tentar las tetas a alguna persona. 71m2-16 chichihualtzitzquia , nite. tentar los pechos, o tetas a otra. 71m2-4 chichihualtzitzquiani , te. el que tienta los pechos o tetas a otra. 71m2-16 chichihualtzitzquiliztli , te. el acto de tentar las tetas a alguna persona. 71m2-16 chichihualxitomatl. nipple-shaped tomato. b.10 f.4 chichihualxochitl. . b.11 f.20 chichihualyacahuitztli. pe?on de teta; pezon deteta. 55m-15 chichihualyacatl. pe?on de teta; pezon deteta. 55m-15 chichihuame. nursemaids; nursing mothers. b.8 f.4 chichiltzintli. suckling baby. b.6 f.1 chichini. el que mama. 71m2-4 chichini. one who is suckled. b.10 f.1 chichinipol. mamanton o mamon; mamanton; o mamon. 55m-13 chichiti , tla. ama de ni?o. 55m-00 chichitia , qui-. she suckles it. b.6 f.20 chichitia , nite. amamantar dar amamar; amamatar; dar a mamar; leche dar. 55m-00 chichitihui. they go nursing. b.11 f.2 chichitiz , qui-. . b.6 f.3 chichiz , qui-. he will suck it. b.10 f.9 chichiz. it will suckle. b.6 f.13 chiyahuaca inchichihualayotl , i. nata de leche. 71m2-6 cihuachichihualli. woman's breast. b.10 f.7 cihuapilchichihualli. girl's breast. b.10 f.7 conechichihualli. child's breast. b.10 f.7 conechichilli. ni?o o ni?a que avn no habla; ni?o o ni?a que aun no habla; ni?o o ni?a tierna. 55m-14 conechichilpil. ni?o o ni?a tierna. 71m2-4 eecachichina , n. chupar ayre, o cerner y rebolar el aue quando anda bolando. 71m2-5 ezchichinqui , te. ventosa que se echa al enfermo. 71m2-16 ichpochchichihualli. maiden's breast. b.10 f.7 iixtzotzoliuhca in chichihualayotl. nata que nada sobre la leche. 55m-14 itlaixxo in chichihualayotl. nata que nada sobre la leche. 55m-14 mechichihualli. maguey breast. b.11 f.18 mechichihualo. having maguey tips. b.11 f.21 oquichchichihualli. man's breast. b.10 f.7 palticacua tlatetzauhtli chichihualayotl , mo. requeson; requeson o quajada. 55m-20 tetzahualli chichihualayotl , tla. cuajada leche; cuajada de leche. 55m-4 tetzauhcahuatzalli chichihualayotl , tla. queso; queso curado; y anejo. 55m-16 tetzauhtli chichihualayotl , tla. cuajada leche. 55m-4 tetzauhtli chichihualayotl , tla. queso. 55m-16 tetzauhtli chichihualayotl , tla. cuajada de leche; queso. 71m1-6 tlacazolchichihuale. tetuda de grandes tetas. 55m-19 tlahelchichi. taster of filth. b.10 f.2 tlatlazolchichihuale. muger de grandes tetas. 71m2-20 yancuic chichihualayo tlatetzauhtli. queso fresco. 55m-16 yoyolca tlatetzauhtli chichihualayotl. qvaiada. 55m-20 _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sun Nov 19 10:20:04 2006 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 10:20:04 +0000 Subject: [Aztlan] Chichimecs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "R. Joe Campbell" wrote: > The discussion on Aztlan about the origin of "Chichimeca" seemed to > be of interest to Nahuat-l-eros, so I am copying to y'all. > chichi , mo-. it is sucked. b.10 f.7 > chichi , qui-. it suckles. b.10 f.7 > ... The connection between the Chichimecs and suckling may be remote. A similar example in the Old World is the connection between the Fatimid Arab dynasty (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid ) and the Arabic word root [f-t-m] = "to wean": the Fatimids were descended from Muhammad the prophet's daughter Fa_tima, and her name is Arabic for "she who weans". Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From amoxtli at earthlink.net Fri Nov 17 20:20:45 2006 From: amoxtli at earthlink.net (Walter Koenig) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:20:45 -0800 Subject: Holiday Sale at Univ. of Oklahoma Press Message-ID: Univ. of Oklahoma Press is having a Holiday Sale on all its books. Some are up to 90% off the list price. J. Richard Andrews?s Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, for example, is discounted 50%. http://www.oupress.com/ Best Wishes, Walter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lingoman at mac.com Fri Nov 24 07:21:38 2006 From: lingoman at mac.com (Doug Barr) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 23:21:38 -0800 Subject: Hello Message-ID: Hello, all - I've always been fascinated by languages, and recently came across Nahuatl - I'm hooked! Diving into it already thanks to the surprising amount of information out there... Got a couple of quick linguistic questions for anyone who can answer them (these are about the Classical language as that's the only one I have materials for). 1. Do long vowels have a different quality from short vowels, or are they simply pronounced twice as long? And, are there very many minimal pairs for vowel length? I've seen "metztli" "foot" and "me:tztli" "moon," but that's the only minimal pair for vowel length that I've seen, so far. 2. Verbs with third-person subject and object that are of the same number, i.e. both singular or both plural - if there's only one noun argument, is there a default reading for subject or object? E.g. does "O:quitta in cihua:tl" mean "The woman saw him/her," "He/she saw the woman," or both/either? 3. I know that the modern languages are different enough from each other to make inter-comprehension difficult, I'm curious to know how inter-intelligible any of the modern languages are with the classical language. Are the differences as great as, say, between Latin and the modern Romance languages? Thanks, and I hope to learn lots! Doug Barr 'S fhearr an saoghal ionnsachadh na sheachnadh. Better to teach (or learn) the world than shun it. (Gaelic proverb) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 24 14:27:39 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:27:39 -0500 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Doug Barr : > Hello, all - > > I've always been fascinated by languages, and recently came across > Nahuatl - I'm hooked! Diving into it already thanks to the surprising > amount of information out there... > > Got a couple of quick linguistic questions for anyone who can answer > them (these are about the Classical language as that's the only one I > have materials for). > > 1. Do long vowels have a different quality from short vowels, or are > they simply pronounced twice as long? I'm pretty sure one cannot say "twice as long" but they do have a distinctive, discernible length, and therefore are phonemic in character. Such vowel-length contrasts are common in American languages, as in the Algonquian family, e.g., Miami-Illinois /nipi/ 'water' but /niipi/ 'my arrow'. But, even in Algonquian, the minimal pair lists are not long. Interesting. And, are there very many > minimal pairs for vowel length? I've seen "metztli" "foot" and > "me:tztli" "moon," but that's the only minimal pair for vowel length > that I've seen, so far. There are not many, but more than that. Joe, do you have a list? One common verb contrast that comes to mind is /toka/ 'follow, chase' but /tooka/ 'bury, plant'. Both, of course, are spelled "toca". > 2. Verbs with third-person subject and object that are of the same > number, i.e. both singular or both plural - if there's only one noun > argument, is there a default reading for subject or object? E.g. does > "O:quitta in cihua:tl" mean "The woman saw him/her," "He/she saw the > woman," or both/either? Fundamentally, it means both. It also can mean "the woman saw them" (inanimate object plural). > 3. I know that the modern languages are different enough from each > other to make inter-comprehension difficult, I'm curious to know how > inter-intelligible any of the modern languages are with the classical > language. Are the differences as great as, say, between Latin and > the modern Romance languages? There are those who know better than I, but my impressionism is that, even with the heavy Spanish overlay, the Nahuatl *dialects* are not as divergent from "classical" Nahuatl as the modern Romance *languages* from Latin. Of course, the Romance languages have had more time to develop along their divergent tracks. Nahuatl dialects, strictly speaking, have been going down different tracks for much shorter time. The sixteen hundreds are not that long ago. Michael McCafferty > > Thanks, and I hope to learn lots! > > Doug Barr > > 'S fhearr an saoghal ionnsachadh na sheachnadh. Better to teach (or > learn) the world than shun it. (Gaelic proverb) > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de Fri Nov 24 16:06:40 2006 From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:06:40 +0100 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, hola, tlane:xtili Doug, ... and welcome. I only want to refer to your no. 3 re: dialects. Historical remark: Nahuatl already had a number of diverging dialects when written "classical" nahuatl came into being. Modern dialects are thus not mere branches stemming from that root but at least some have a longer history of their own. Most, however, interacted with "standard" Nahuatl (besides Spanish) for a long time, as this was a lingua franca in the Aztec Empire and in wide parts of New Spain (as an administrative and missionary language coupled with relatively widespread literacy), losing importance only after the Bourbonic reforms and altogether after Independence. For todays' situation, in terms of "intelligibility" I would differentiate three aspects: 1) objective linguistic facts 2) language ideology 3) cultural praxis / language practice 1) For a linguist all Nahuatl dialects look very similar, in many cases you can easily identify certain regular changes, innovations, archaisms. Some dialects located at quite a distance from each other are strikingly alike, some neighboring ones can be quite divergent. Most linguists would probably count a distant Nahuatl variant such as Pipil Nahuat in El Salvador as a "dialect". The Pochutec language in Oaxaca described by Franz Boas is the most divergent one, maybe Pochutec would be a candidate for the label "language". Unfortunately it is extinct as is probably Pipil (the latter a very tragic case). 2) Language ideology as coupled with the social reality of a class society defines certain languages as socially inferior. Speakers of such a language then tend to deny their mother tongue, depending on context. So when Nahuas from the same village avoid speaking their language with each other in an urban setting, they are much less likely to try their Nahuatl with a speaker from another region. Language ideologies detrimental to the preservation of Nahuatl come in two flavors, a rock and a hard place: (a) Progressist Flavor: Nahuatl is considered an obsolete vestige, a cultural expression of backward-oriented people, an obstacle to "progress" (you find this attitude even among bilingual teachers); (b) Purist Flavor: modern Nahuatl speakers are accused of "polluting" their once pristine, imperial language with Spanish modernisms, so it is not considered "legitimate" any more (many speakers, including bilingual teachers, give this as a reason not to speak nahuatl with their own children - "if it were still the real pure Aztec language, I would"). (I don't mean to personally criticize people who make a decision in favor of Spanish to the best of their understanding for the perceived best of their children.) All over, the respective local indigenous language is called "dialecto" by the locals, and they don't mean it as a linguistic term but to indicate that it is culturally and socially inferior to a "real" language like Spanish or English. (Look at the Hills' "Speaking Mexicano" for a Puebla case of language purism.) Under these circumstances, asking about intelligibility, you never know what is meant when somebody says "I don't understand the way those guys speak". 3) An intelligibility test with Nahuatl speakers from different regions will probably yield low rates of mututal understanding in a first run. But it will only take a very short time of joint practice and most will understand each other reasonably well. The reason why they seldom do in real life is that you don't use Nahuatl with someone you don't know, and there's always Spanish. Besides the perceived "inferiority" of the indigenous language, the real dialect differences can be a source of all kinds of jokes, which is not enjoyed by all. Compare this to a speaker of Castilean Spanish coming to Latin America and talking about "coger" all the time when the latino would say "tomar". So I guess the lack of interdialectal language practice leads to low intelligibility. Of course you find culturally interested individuals and Nahua intellectuals who enjoy using their language with "co-Nahuas" from all over but in my experience this is not the general rule. But it remains an interesting question. Are there any systematic intelligibility test carried out anywhere (I mean from speakers' point of view, not judging from vocabulary lists / lexocstatistics)? On what empirical grounds have standardization efforts (look at the SEP/DGEI schoolbooks) been undertaken? Ay, mela:k nitlatlahtotika we:i, xne:chpialika:n paciencia ;-) ma nya Henry _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Fri Nov 24 22:05:25 2006 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:05:25 -0800 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: <20061124092739.vk8v806c8w8g4o4o@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Michael McCafferty wrote: | There are not many, but more than that. Joe, do you have a list? | One common verb contrast that comes to mind is /toka/ 'follow, chase' | but /tooka/ 'bury, plant'. Both, of course, are spelled "toca". Although many Spaniards prefer to spell it that way, I prefer to spell the long vowels with an uppercase 'O' character. Hence "toka" means chase (with a little 'o') while "tOka" (with a big 'o') means plant. As soon as I'm done deciphering the Thesaurus file for WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS), I'll be putting together a thesaurus file with long vowels marked accordingly (so there's no need for diacritical marks like macrons). Now, that may not mean much to your Microsoft "Word" fanatics, but to the rest of the world, we will have something much more practical and useful to use. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Fri Nov 24 22:38:33 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:38:33 -0600 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matthew, Long vowel notation is a problem that has never been resolved, partly because of the different communities involved. Nahua writers have never given importance to marking vowel length (except those who work for linguists). The few colonial texts which show vowel length use a macron. And today only professionals working on language documentation projects consider it important, which it is for that purpose (they tend to use a semi-colon). So the question is, Why do you want to show long vowels in your file? If it's for reference, that's fine. If it's for everyday writing, than neither semicolons nor capital letters will work, because they are used for other purposes. I like to use macrons for language documentation because of their tradition, but as you imply, they come out as rubbish when most people open the file. At this time I don't think it's possible to come up with an answer that all participants will embrace. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx ? On Nov 24, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Michael McCafferty wrote: > | There are not many, but more than that. Joe, do you have a list? > | One common verb contrast that comes to mind is /toka/ 'follow, > chase' > | but /tooka/ 'bury, plant'. Both, of course, are spelled "toca". > > Although many Spaniards prefer to spell it that way, I prefer to > spell the long vowels with an uppercase 'O' character. Hence > "toka" means chase (with a little 'o') while "tOka" (with a big 'o') > means plant. As soon as I'm done deciphering the Thesaurus file for > WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS), I'll be putting together a thesaurus file > with long vowels marked accordingly (so there's no need for > diacritical marks like macrons). > > Now, that may not mean much to your Microsoft "Word" fanatics, but > to the rest of the world, we will have something much more practical > and useful to use. > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Nov 25 01:37:56 2006 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:37:56 -0600 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For publication, I think macrons look much neater, plus they help newcomers to relate texts to Andrews' vocabulary (in the *Workbook* of the revised addition of his *Introduction to classical Nahuatl) and Karttunen's *Analytical dictionary of Nahuatl*. They are a real nuisance to type, though. I like Paul de Wolf's solution, used in his *Diccionario espa?ol-n?huatl* (M?xico/La Paz, Instituto de Investigaciones Hist?ricas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico/Fideicomiso Teixidor/Universidad Aut?noma de Baja California Sur, 2003). He just hits the vowel key twice for the long vowels. It looks strange at first, but its logic is evident. This has the advantage of not being ambiguous, unlike colons and capitals. I'm going to offer this option to my students next semester, since several have complained that fighting the software distracted them from focusing on linguistic issues. (I highly recommend de Wolf's dictionary, by the way; it's a massive, comprehensive lexicon that integrates most of the major vocabularies, restoring long vowels and saltillos wherever possible, with access being through the Spanish translations.) -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Matthew Montchalin Enviado el: Viernes, 24 de Noviembre de 2006 04:05 p.m. Para: Michael McCafferty CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Hello On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Michael McCafferty wrote: | There are not many, but more than that. Joe, do you have a list? | One common verb contrast that comes to mind is /toka/ 'follow, chase' | but /tooka/ 'bury, plant'. Both, of course, are spelled "toca". Although many Spaniards prefer to spell it that way, I prefer to spell the long vowels with an uppercase 'O' character. Hence "toka" means chase (with a little 'o') while "tOka" (with a big 'o') means plant. As soon as I'm done deciphering the Thesaurus file for WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS), I'll be putting together a thesaurus file with long vowels marked accordingly (so there's no need for diacritical marks like macrons). Now, that may not mean much to your Microsoft "Word" fanatics, but to the rest of the world, we will have something much more practical and useful to use. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Nov 25 14:14:12 2006 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 09:14:12 -0500 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: <45671890.3080305@em.uni-frankfurt.de> Message-ID: Henry's description of the language situation, perceived mutual intelligibility, and all is the best synthesis I have seen. And to my mind it is spot on accurate too. Fran Karttunen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Nov 25 14:42:41 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 09:42:41 -0500 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here here. Or hear hear. Michael Quoting Frances Karttunen : > Henry's description of the language situation, perceived mutual > intelligibility, and all is the best synthesis I have seen. And to > my mind it is spot on accurate too. > > Fran Karttunen > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Nov 25 19:42:00 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:42:00 -0600 Subject: long vowel notation Message-ID: > Listeros, > The use of the double vowel to represent length can be confusing > for variants that tend not to eliminate one of two vowels that come > together at a morpheme boundary. In Huastecan Nahuatl we have, for > example, niitztoc (ni-itztoc), "I am [estar]"; quiittah " (qui- > ittah), "they see him-her-it"; mooholinia (mo-oholinia), "it moves". John > On Nov 24, 2006, at 7:37 PM, David Wright wrote: > John > >> For publication, I think macrons look much neater, plus they help >> newcomers >> to relate texts to Andrews' vocabulary (in the *Workbook* of the >> revised >> addition of his *Introduction to classical Nahuatl) and Karttunen's >> *Analytical dictionary of Nahuatl*. They are a real nuisance to type, >> though. I like Paul de Wolf's solution, used in his *Diccionario >> espa?ol-n?huatl* (M?xico/La Paz, Instituto de Investigaciones >> Hist?ricas, >> Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico/Fideicomiso Teixidor/ >> Universidad >> Aut?noma de Baja California Sur, 2003). He just hits the vowel key >> twice for >> the long vowels. It looks strange at first, but its logic is >> evident. This >> has the advantage of not being ambiguous, unlike colons and >> capitals. I'm >> going to offer this option to my students next semester, since >> several have >> complained that fighting the software distracted them from >> focusing on >> linguistic issues. (I highly recommend de Wolf's dictionary, by >> the way; >> it's a massive, comprehensive lexicon that integrates most of the >> major >> vocabularies, restoring long vowels and saltillos wherever >> possible, with >> access being through the Spanish translations.) >> >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl- >> bounces at lists.famsi.org] >> En nombre de Matthew Montchalin >> Enviado el: Viernes, 24 de Noviembre de 2006 04:05 p.m. >> Para: Michael McCafferty >> CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Hello >> >> On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Michael McCafferty wrote: >> | There are not many, but more than that. Joe, do you have a list? >> | One common verb contrast that comes to mind is /toka/ 'follow, >> chase' >> | but /tooka/ 'bury, plant'. Both, of course, are spelled "toca". >> >> Although many Spaniards prefer to spell it that way, I prefer to >> spell the long vowels with an uppercase 'O' character. Hence >> "toka" means chase (with a little 'o') while "tOka" (with a big 'o') >> means plant. As soon as I'm done deciphering the Thesaurus file for >> WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS), I'll be putting together a thesaurus file >> with long vowels marked accordingly (so there's no need for >> diacritical marks like macrons). >> >> Now, that may not mean much to your Microsoft "Word" fanatics, but >> to the rest of the world, we will have something much more practical >> and useful to use. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Nov 25 21:20:26 2006 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:20:26 -0600 Subject: Long vowel notation Message-ID: Estimado John: Thanks for your input. I have one doubt: Does the lack of vowel ellision in your examples produce a result that sounds different from long vowels, perhaps a syllable boundary between the two like vowels, distinguished by stress? I suppose this would be harder to hear in the last example. Saludos, David ****************************** Listeros, The use of the double vowel to represent length can be confusing for variants that tend not to eliminate one of two vowels that come together at a morpheme boundary. In Huastecan Nahuatl we have, for example, niitztoc (ni-itztoc), "I am [estar]"; quiittah " (qui-ittah), "they see him-her-it"; mooholinia (mo-oholinia), "it moves". John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Nov 25 21:40:48 2006 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:40:48 -0600 Subject: Long vowel notation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, The sound is definitely two syllables, much different from the sound of a long vowel. John On Nov 25, 2006, at 3:20 PM, David Wright wrote: > Estimado John: > > Thanks for your input. I have one doubt: > > Does the lack of vowel ellision in your examples produce a result > that sounds different from long vowels, perhaps a syllable boundary > between the two like vowels, distinguished by stress? I suppose > this would be harder to hear in the last example. > > Saludos, > > David > > ****************************** > Listeros, > The use of the double vowel to represent length can be confusing > for variants that tend not to eliminate one of two vowels that come > together at a morpheme boundary. In Huastecan Nahuatl we have, for > example, niitztoc (ni-itztoc), "I am [estar]"; quiittah " (qui- > ittah), "they see him-her-it"; mooholinia (mo-oholinia), "it moves". > John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lingoman at mac.com Sat Nov 25 22:12:57 2006 From: lingoman at mac.com (Doug Barr) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:12:57 -0800 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Warning! Incoming barrage of questions! :-D On Nov 24, 2006, at 6:27 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: >> 2. Verbs with third-person subject and object that are of the same >> number, i.e. both singular or both plural - if there's only one noun >> argument, is there a default reading for subject or object? E.g. does >> "O:quitta in cihua:tl" mean "The woman saw him/her," "He/she saw the >> woman," or both/either? >> > > Fundamentally, it means both. It also can mean "the woman saw > them" (inanimate object plural). Interesting. In the other indigenous language I know something of - Halkomelem Salish - plurality is also not necessarily distinguished in third person, however a single noun argument is obligatorily read as subject, so a sentence like the following - Ni kwolextos kwtho smoyoth. Ni kwolex-t-os kwtho smoyoth. Be.there shoot-[transitive]-[3rd.person.agent] the.definite.but.not.currently.visible deer. - would HAVE to mean, "The deer shot him/her/them," not "He/she/they shot the deer" as the sense would indicate. Another question on that topic - and I do apologize if this has been answered previously, I don't have any texts as yet and haven't so far had a lot of luck searching the archives - I understand that canonical word order in Classical Nahuatl was (probably) VSO, but in a sentence like "O:quitta in cihua:tl in oquichtli" is the woman seeing the man, or the man seeing the woman, or both? (Halkomelem is generally VSO but can be VOS, and distinguishes by sense, context or use of subject-oriented demonstratives before what is to be read as subject). Pronunciation - how aspirated are the stop consonants in Nahuatl? My impression from the one recording of a modern dialect I've found is, not or not very. And, if you have what is orthographically a double consonant like the -tt- in "o:quitta," is it treated as a geminate consonant and just held for a beat, like Italian "letto" or Japanese "katta," or are the two consonants rearticulated? The latter is what Halkomelem does, -tt- would be articulated as two 't' sounds in a row, no different that -kt- or anything else - Salish phonotactics and morphology are just generally terrifying. :-D Thanks again to all who answered, I do appreciate it. This language is fascinating! Doug _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Tue Nov 28 17:31:17 2006 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:31:17 -0500 Subject: Long vowel notation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear listeros, Use of double vowels to represent length is problematical with sequences of double vowels, particularly in reduplication. e.g., a:polaki can reduplicate in Ameyaltepec as a:a:polaki or aa:apolaki (the h is lost word internally in Ameylatepec). With double letters one would write aaaapolaki and aaapolaki A sequence of three vowels would be ambiguous between VV: and V:V Also, there are cases of double vowels iich ?his or her maguey hemp? koo:lo:tl type of tree Guazuma ulmifolia. I use colons for typing and macrons for writing by hand (e.g., students on the blackboard) and in publication. I have found that beginning students usually write the segments without vowel length and then add length after going over the words. Macrons are best for this. The problem is searching for macroned vowels in electronic format, as well as typing. Finally, in Oapan there are tones, so long vowels are distinguished by tone a:polaki ?:polaki (the iterative form, in other variants aha:polaki) jda Quoting David Wright : > Estimado John: > > Thanks for your input. I have one doubt: > > Does the lack of vowel ellision in your examples produce a result that > sounds different from long vowels, perhaps a syllable boundary between the > two like vowels, distinguished by stress? I suppose this would be harder to > hear in the last example. > > Saludos, > > David > > ****************************** > Listeros, > The use of the double vowel to represent length can be confusing for > variants that tend not to eliminate one of two vowels that come together at > a morpheme boundary. In Huastecan Nahuatl we have, for example, niitztoc > (ni-itztoc), "I am [estar]"; quiittah " (qui-ittah), "they see him-her-it"; > mooholinia (mo-oholinia), "it moves". > John > -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mylne21 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 29 18:30:13 2006 From: mylne21 at hotmail.com (D. Mylne) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:30:13 -0700 Subject: Long vowel notation In-Reply-To: <20061128123117.bt9bn7ck0c84k8s0@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From amoxtli at earthlink.net Thu Nov 30 00:21:52 2006 From: amoxtli at earthlink.net (Walter Koenig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:21:52 -0800 Subject: Panocha and Panoltia Message-ID: Greetings, A friend has asked me whether there is a connection between the Mexican Spanish word panocha = A coarse grade of Mexican sugar, crude reference to women's genitalia. and Nahuatl panoltia = to pass, convey something, someone from one place to another. Evidently, several scholars, including historian Emma P?rez, assert that panocha has a Nahuatl etymology. Can anybody confirm or disprove this? Thanks for your help. Best Wishes, Walter O. Koenig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Thu Nov 30 16:40:00 2006 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:40:00 -0800 Subject: Panocha and Panoltia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sp. ?panocha? from Na. ?panoltia? seems rather improbable. First, this would require a transitive verb to be borrowed as a noun and a curious semantic extension. ?Panocha? is also found outside of Mexico, at least in reference to ?vulva? (for example, Puerto Rico I believe). Rather, it seems ?panocha? has a good old-fashioned Romance etymology, with cognates at least in Italian (pannocchia) and French (panouille), which mean ?ear of corn?. According to the Italian etymological dictionary I have at the house, ?pannocchia? comes from vulgar Latin *panucula(m) referring to ?a millet spike?. With the discovery of the Americas, ?millet spike? was extended to ?ear of corn?. >>From there we can perhaps speculate that the ?coarse sugar? may have come from a corn sugar? ?Sugar? then can find an well-trodden extension into ?vulva?. Incidentally, Fr. ?panouille? is also used in slang as an insult for ?idiot? (?abruti?). I suspect ?panouille? is something of a historical word for ?ear of corn?; I?ve always heard the expression ??pi de mais? in French. ?Pannocchia? however is the standard word for ?ear of corn? in Italian; I don?t believe it is used in Italian slang. --- Walter Koenig wrote: > Greetings, > > A friend has asked me whether there is a connection > between the > Mexican Spanish word panocha = A coarse grade of > Mexican sugar, crude > reference to women's genitalia. > and Nahuatl panoltia = to pass, convey something, > someone from one > place to another. > > Evidently, several scholars, including historian > Emma P?rez, assert > that panocha has a Nahuatl etymology. Can anybody > confirm or disprove > this? > > Thanks for your help. > > Best Wishes, > > Walter O. Koenig > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Rickey456 at aol.com Thu Nov 30 21:10:50 2006 From: Rickey456 at aol.com (Rickey456 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:10:50 EST Subject: panocha Message-ID: From www.rae.es panocha. (Del lat. vulg. panuc?la, mazorca, y este del lat. panic?la, dim. de panus, mazorca de hilo). 1. f. _panoja._ (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?LEMA=panoja&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC= No) 2. f. C. Rica. _empanada_ (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?LEMA=empanado&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC=No#0_2) (? masa de pan rellena). 3. f. coloq. Cuba y El Salv. _vulva._ (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?LEMA=vulva&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC=No#0_1) 4. f. coloq. Cuba. _vagina._ (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?LEMA=vagina&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC=No#0_1) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rude at religion.ucsb.edu Thu Nov 30 23:42:56 2006 From: rude at religion.ucsb.edu (Rudy V. Busto) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:42:56 -0800 Subject: Panocha and Panoltia Message-ID: What a shock for a Chicano to open his email and see the "P" word in the subject line of the Nahuat-l list. As a teenager I was led to believe that panocha as a vulgar term for female genitalia was not, as the Spanish etymology suggests, related to corn, but to the sweetness of the brown sugar which shares the same name. Perhaps the cone shape of the sugar when it is manufactured is related to the "...vulgar Latin *panucula(m) referring to 'a millet spike'?. And if so, it makes the whole affair a rather freudian fantasy. Rudy Busto UC-Santa Barbara _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl