From campbel at indiana.edu  Sun Oct  1 21:40:53 2006
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 17:40:53 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl movies
Message-ID: <SUN.1.OCT.2006.174053.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Nocnihuan,

   I clicked on the web address that Miguel supplied and saw the list of 
nine movies and wished that HBO or American Movie Classics would schedule 
them for October.

   When I saw the title "Llamatlan", it piqued my curiosity, so I clicked 
on it, thinking that maybe it was a hybridized Spanish word (Lugar de 
llamas).  No such luck -- if I remember correctly, they translated it as 
"Lugar de mujeres ancianas", indicating that someone at some point had 
interpreted "Ilamatlan" incorrectly, perceiving the initial "I" as an "L"
-- and no one in the group knew any better.

You might add:

  http://imdb.com/title/tt0441022/

to see "El muerto", a movie based on the comic book of the same name.
Although it isn't totally scripted in Nahuatl, it does contain numerous
attempts to include Nahuatl phrases in the dialogue.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe

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From Pira at asies.org.gt  Mon Oct  2 18:16:14 2006
From: Pira at asies.org.gt (Juan Pablo Pira)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:16:14 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl movies
Message-ID: <MON.2.OCT.2006.121614.0600.PIRA@ASIES.ORG.GT>



Just for the sake of completeness, The mask of Zorro (1998) has a few seconds of Nahuatl (or something that sounds Nahuatl)spoken by Elena's nanny.  Why would someone living in California speak Nahuatl completely escapes me.

Juan Pablo Pira

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From swood at uoregon.edu  Tue Oct  3 00:01:58 2006
From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 17:01:58 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl movies
Message-ID: <MON.2.OCT.2006.170158.0700.SWOOD@UOREGON.EDU>

There is a documentary series about the Spanish language with an 
episode called The New Spain that has a scene with Spanish conquerors, 
Jeronimo de Aguilar, dona Marina, and some Nahuas using three languages 
to communicate (about foods, mostly).  It is tongue in cheek.

Stephanie Wood

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From david_becraft at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  4 06:12:58 2006
From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:12:58 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl movies
In-Reply-To: <FE9F72251359894CAFC5BD39FFDFDE995D507D@asiessvr01.asies.org.gt>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.OCT.2006.231258.0700.DAVIDBECRAFT@HOTMAIL.COM>

Keno Tinemi,

Something to think about is that many Nawa speaking people have been trading 
back and forth up and down Anahuac for centuries.  Another point is that 
many Nahuas were with the Spaniards in their travels through the southwest.  
Think of some place names in California like "Mexicali" which is clearly a 
nahuatl word meaning "house of Mexi".  Some traditions also have Nahuas 
traveling and having nahuatl placenames like Seattle (Ce-Atl), and Michigan 
(Michican) among many.  Could this explain why the nanny was speaking 
nahuatl in California...possibly.

Pancho


>From: "Juan Pablo Pira" <Pira at asies.org.gt>
>To: <nahautl at lists.famsi.org>
>Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl movies
>Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:16:14 -0600
>
>
>
>Just for the sake of completeness, The mask of Zorro (1998) has a few 
>seconds of Nahuatl (or something that sounds Nahuatl)spoken by Elena's 
>nanny.  Why would someone living in California speak Nahuatl completely 
>escapes me.
>
>Juan Pablo Pira
>


>_______________________________________________
>Nahuatl mailing list
>Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Wed Oct  4 06:49:25 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 07:49:25 +0100
Subject: Nawatl placenames far from the Nawatl-speaking area (was: RE:
 [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl movies)
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F26C3A4162DB108B91973458B1D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.074925.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- David Becraft <david_becraft at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Something to think about is that many Nawa speaking people have been
> trading back and forth up and down Anahuac for centuries. ...
> Think of some place names in California like "Mexicali" which is
> clearly a nahuatl word meaning "house of Mexi". Some traditions also
> have Nahuas traveling and having nahuatl placenames like Seattle
>(Ce-Atl), and Michigan (Michican) among many.

Some of these could be coincidences.
- Mexicali could be a mixtue of "Mexico" and "Cali-(fornia)": there is
a town "Calexico" which is the opposite mixture. 
- Seattle was named after a local Amerindian chief: see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle
- Coalinga in California looks Nahuatl but is a short form of "Coaling
station A" (for railway locomotives, as coal is or was mined there.)

> Could this explain why the nanny was speaking nahuatl in California

One Nahuatl-sspeaking nanny in California could be one stray recent
immigrant.

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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Wed Oct  4 07:58:10 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:58:10 +0100
Subject: Nawatl placenames far from the Nawatl-speaking area (was: RE:
 [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl movies) (P.S.)
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.085810.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- ANTHONY APPLEYARD <a.appleyard at btinternet.com> wrote:
> Some of these could be coincidences. ...

Coincidences are common and very confusing when looking for
relationships between languages. As the common ancestor of two
languages recedes further into the past, their shared history of
related words disappears "under the noise" of unrelated words that look
similar or the same. An example of this sort of coincidence is Arabic
"al" = Spanish "el" = "the".

Citlalyani

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Oct  4 12:18:59 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:18:59 -0400
Subject: New grantee research reports at FAMSI
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.081859.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Hello Listeros,

New grantee research reports at FAMSI website include:

The Champoton Regional Settlement Survey: Results from the 2005 Field Season
by Jerald D. Ek.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05061/index.html

Aztec Elites and the Post Classic Economy: Instrumental Neutron Activation
Analysis (INAA) of Museum Collections from Chiconautla, Mexico (2004)
by Christina M. Elson.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/03019/index.html


Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos del Ingles al Espanol:

Fuentes de Origen del Betun en la Region Olmeca (2004)
por Carl J. Wendt.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/03059es/index.html

Cambio Medio Ambiental y Agricultura Prehistorica en la Cuenca El 
Mirador (2002)
por David Wahl.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/01071es/index.html

Saludos,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/



John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Oct  4 12:26:04 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:26:04 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl movies
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F26C3A4162DB108B91973458B1D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.082604.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

At 02:12 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>Some traditions also have Nahuas traveling and having nahuatl 
>placenames like Seattle (Ce-Atl), and Michigan (Michican) among 
>many.  Could this explain why the nanny was speaking nahuatl in 
>California...possibly.


I think it is far easier to imagine that a Hollywood director did not 
know one native language from another and placed a Nahuatl speaker in 
"The Mask of Zorro" than to imagine that the movie was faithfully 
representing the ethnic mixture of California at the time the events 
supposedly took place.  Hey folks, this is fiction!!!!  Nothing else 
about the movie is historically accurate.  Why should a Nahuatl speaker be?






John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Oct  4 15:05:13 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:05:13 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Aztlan] New find at Templo Mayor
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.110513.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

>From: "Clifford T. Brown" <ctbrown at fau.edu>
>To: "Aztlan" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:37:29 -0400
>Subject: [Aztlan] New find at Templo Mayor
>
>There are a variety of news reports today in the Mexican press about a new
>monumental sculpture and altar found near the Templo Mayor in Mexico City.
>
>
>
>Here is the URL for one article:
>
>
>
>http://www.cronica.com.mx/nota.php?id_nota=264395
>
>
>
>
>
>Clifford T. Brown
>Assistant Professor
>Florida Atlantic University
>777 Glades Road
>Boca Raton, FL 33431
>(561) 297-3232
>ctbrown at fau.edu
>

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From cihuatl at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  4 15:48:17 2006
From: cihuatl at earthlink.net (cihuatl at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:48:17 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl in California
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.114817.0400.>

Not only were Nahuatl speakers traveling with Spaniards in the northward expansion, but native languages of Southern California (often named for the mission communities, e.g. juaneno; gabrieleno) include Northern Uto Aztecan Takic- Cupan languages, and thus not unrelated to Nahuatl (although admittedly distant).  Joanna
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From david_becraft at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  7 04:37:57 2006
From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 21:37:57 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl movies
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20061004082339.01c836f0@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.OCT.2006.213757.0700.DAVIDBECRAFT@HOTMAIL.COM>

At 08:26 10/04/2006, you wrote:

"Nothing else about the movie is historically accurate.  Why should a 
Nahuatl speaker be?"


You are correct indeed about the movie, its a work of fiction; and the 
Hollywood Director and Producer probably can't distinguish a Paiute from a 
Mayo, let alone their different dialects or any  Indigenous Californian 
Languages.
I think for the sake of historical accuracy though, nahuatl speakers should 
not be considered historically inaccurate in 1800's California.  There is 
enough Documentary evidence to show Nahuatl and even Otomi speakers in 
California during that time, before and after too.
Take the word "Chicano", obviously a combination of Spanish and Nahuatl, yet 
purely a Californian word that can be attributed to the "Meshica" 
farmworkers who worked alonside the Spanish speaking farmworkers.  /meshica/ 
+ /-ano/ - /me/ + /chi/ - /shi/= chicano

Tlashtlawi,

Pancho








>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>
>To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl movies
>Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:26:04 -0400
>
>At 02:12 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>>Some traditions also have Nahuas traveling and having nahuatl placenames 
>>like Seattle (Ce-Atl), and Michigan (Michican) among many.  Could this 
>>explain why the nanny was speaking nahuatl in California...possibly.
>
>
>I think it is far easier to imagine that a Hollywood director did not know 
>one native language from another and placed a Nahuatl speaker in "The Mask 
>of Zorro" than to imagine that the movie was faithfully representing the 
>ethnic mixture of California at the time the events supposedly took place.  
>Hey folks, this is fiction!!!!  Nothing else about the movie is 
>historically accurate.  Why should a Nahuatl speaker be?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>John F. Schwaller
>President
>SUNY Potsdam
>44 Pierrepont Ave.
>Potsdam, NY  13676
>
>315-267-2100
>315-267-2496 fax
>
>_______________________________________________
>Nahuatl mailing list
>Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From chelodona at argentina.com  Sun Oct  8 03:05:23 2006
From: chelodona at argentina.com (Chelo Dona)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 00:05:23 -0300
Subject: Nahuatl "moves"
Message-ID: <SUN.8.OCT.2006.000523.0300.>

Nahuatl en california...por orden del Rey de España.

Voy de memoria, pero sobre seguro: Un tiempo despues de caidas las
principales unidades politicas americanas, (imperio mexica, imperio
incaico), la corona española establecio el USO FORZOSO de DOS lenguas
nativas en todo el continente, a saber: el NAHUATL en norte-centro
America y el QUECHUA en Sudamerica. 

Esto se hizo para facilitar la conversion religiosa que fue el centro
de la incorporacion de los nativos del continente al sistema
socioeconomico de los nativos de Europa. 

En Sudamerica esto, mas el uso de tropas locales de los imperios
recien conquistados como fuerzas de reserva o apoyo nucleadas
alrededor de los españoles, llevo a que las lenguas "principales" se
diseminaran por lugares que no habian abarcado antes de la conquista
europea. Varias de las ciudades mas importantes de Argentina fueron
fundadas por grupos compuestos por unas decenas de europeos y miles de
"indios mansos" o "amigos", que tratandose de expediciones que venian
de Peru probablemente fueran quichuahablantes (fundacion de Cordoba,
segunda ciudad de Argentina, de Santiago del Estero, otra ciudad
importante)

Puntualmente en el caso del quichua, se extendio quizas 500 kilometros
fuera de su area de uso anterior gracias a la accion española. En el
caso de Santiago del Estero: en todo un territorio que NO UTILIZABA EL
QUECHUA antes de la penetracion española, HOY esta lengua es la
segunda en uso despues del castellano.

La ordenanza que establecia el uso obligatorio del Nahuatl en el norte
y del Quichua en el sur fue sustituida por la prohibicion de lenguas
americanas, y la imposicion del español, unos cien años mas tarde. Por
lo tanto en ese periodo intermedio, a todos los lugares de Centro y
Norteamerica donde llegaron los españoles con cierta fuerza, llevaron
el Nahuatl. Estamos hablando de casi un siglo y de una ley del imperio
español en su momento mas importante.
 
Prometo organizar esta informacion y las referencias.

Marcelo Donadello.

Con fecha 7/10/2006, "David Becraft" <david_becraft at hotmail.com>, 
escribió:

>At 08:26 10/04/2006, you wrote:
>
>"Nothing else about the movie is historically accurate.  Why should
a
>Nahuatl speaker be?"
>
>
>You are correct indeed about the movie, its a work of fiction; and
the
>Hollywood Director and Producer probably can't distinguish a Paiute
from a
>Mayo, let alone their different dialects or any  Indigenous
Californian
>Languages.
>I think for the sake of historical accuracy though, nahuatl speakers
should
>not be considered historically inaccurate in 1800's California. 
There is
>enough Documentary evidence to show Nahuatl and even Otomi speakers
in
>California during that time, before and after too.
>Take the word "Chicano", obviously a combination of Spanish and
Nahuatl, yet
>purely a Californian word that can be attributed to the "Meshica"
>farmworkers who worked alonside the Spanish speaking farmworkers. 
/meshica/
>+ /-ano/ - /me/ + /chi/ - /shi/= chicano
>
>Tlashtlawi,
>
>Pancho
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>
>>To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl movies
>>Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:26:04 -0400
>>
>>At 02:12 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>Some traditions also have Nahuas traveling and having nahuatl
placenames
>>>like Seattle (Ce-Atl), and Michigan (Michican) among many.  Could
this
>>>explain why the nanny was speaking nahuatl in
California...possibly.
>>
>>
>>I think it is far easier to imagine that a Hollywood director did
not know
>>one native language from another and placed a Nahuatl speaker in
"The Mask
>>of Zorro" than to imagine that the movie was faithfully representing
the
>>ethnic mixture of California at the time the events supposedly took
place.
>>Hey folks, this is fiction!!!!  Nothing else about the movie is
>>historically accurate.  Why should a Nahuatl speaker be?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>John F. Schwaller
>>President
>>SUNY Potsdam
>>44 Pierrepont Ave.
>>Potsdam, NY  13676
>>
>>315-267-2100
>>315-267-2496 fax
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Nahuatl mailing list
>>Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Nahuatl mailing list
>Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Sun Oct  8 16:54:26 2006
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 18:54:26 +0200
Subject: popocatepetl and iztaccihuatl
Message-ID: <SUN.8.OCT.2006.185426.0200.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

I have often heard the story of the two volcanoes in Mexico told as a
supposed Nahua legend of the warrior popocatepetl and the princess
iztaccihuatl who couldn't have eachother and wound up turned into mountains.
The story seems much closer to european romantic myth than to a genuine
indigenous tale, although supposedly some Nahua communities do tell the tale
now (I have read a version from Tetelcingo). Does any one know anything
about the origins of this tale?
 - Magnus -
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From rjcooper at sover.net  Sun Oct  8 19:53:27 2006
From: rjcooper at sover.net (Roger J. Cooper)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 15:53:27 -0400
Subject: popocatepetl and iztaccihuatl
In-Reply-To: <e03a2ea10610080954i2ff4e93bi258e48554e8e1046@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.8.OCT.2006.155327.0400.RJCOOPER@SOVER.NET>

The myth goes even further. Popocatepetl and Citlaltepetel (otherwise
known as the Pico de Orizaba) fought over the love of Ixtaccihuatl. During
the fight Ixtaccihuatl died then Popocatepetl won the fight and kicked
Citlaltepetl all the way to Orizaba. Popocatepetl then lay down by his
long time love, Ixtaccihuatl.
I don't know the origin of the myth, but would love to know it if anyone
has the source.
Roger.
-- 
Roger J. Cooper
Email - rjcooper at sover.net
Email - itzamnaj at verizon.net

On Sun, October 8, 2006 12:54 pm, magnus hansen said:
> I have often heard the story of the two volcanoes in Mexico told as a
> supposed Nahua legend of the warrior popocatepetl and the princess
> iztaccihuatl who couldn't have eachother and wound up turned into
> mountains.
> The story seems much closer to european romantic myth than to a genuine
> indigenous tale, although supposedly some Nahua communities do tell the
> tale
> now (I have read a version from Tetelcingo). Does any one know anything
> about the origins of this tale?
>  - Magnus -
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


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From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Mon Oct  9 22:24:46 2006
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:24:46 -0700
Subject: location of syllabic stress in Classical Nawatl
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.62.0610091103340.14592@steel09.uits.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.OCT.2006.152446.0700.MMONTCHA@OREGONVOS.NET>

Maybe English worries more about syllabic stress than other
languages do.

For verbs that end in -ia, should those two letters be treated
as a monosyllabic dyphthong?  Or is the letter 'i' stressed
because Nawatl usually prefers to have the penultima stressed?

And another question relates to poetry in Classical Nawatl.
Should syllables be scanned for long and short syllables, or
does it make a difference which syllables the stress accent
falls?  Is it possible to string together a number of spondees,
or is it more likely that the natural cadence of the language
will cause spondees to decompose into a mixture of iambic and
trochaic feet?

Along related lines:

I am trying to study the passive voice in Nawatl.  There's a whole
chapter on it on page 73 of the Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar
(Thelma D. Sullivan) but I guess I'm having a pretty hard time of
it.  What really throws me for a loop, is the inscrutable Spanish
spelling instead of a more down-to-earth 'phonetic' spelling.  As I
may have mentioned elsewhere in this list, I have virtually no
understanding of Spanish (but I have also mentioned that I studied
Classical Latin upwards of ten years, both at the high school level
and at the university level).

How did the Spanish missionaries originally translate "Many are
called but few are chosen" into Nawatl?  (I think that this could
make for a good bumper sticker.)

I am using the uppercase H to represent the glottal stop.

Now, if I also use uppercase vowels to represent those that are to
bear syllabic stress, and lowercase vowels for those that are
unstressed, notzaloH ought to be the third person singular present
passive plural form for "they are chosen" and pepenAloH for "they
are called"  (but I also considered the possibility that the second
person plural might also be possible).

What is the proper conjunction to unite these two words so they
take on the sense that is usually associated with the Biblical
verse, "Many are called but few are chosen"?  The conjunction would
be adversative in nature, wouldn't it?  Now, I think the singular
adjective miyek means 'many' but I don't know if a different word
is more appropriate, such as something that means "very often" or
"very frequently" instead.  In Latin, an adverb modifies a verb
much the same way that an adjective modifies a noun, but in Nawatl,
the only reference work I have right now, is the work by Thelma
Sullivan, and that leaves a lot to the imagination, and I doubt
that I can just mix-and-match the affixes willy-nilly, as I feel
like it, and still end up with a sentence that makes sense to
a scholar of Classical Nawatl.

Since Nawatl admits to a more or less free word order, is there
going to be more than one way of rendering the Biblical verse into
Nawatl?  Are any of those versions going to be considered more
poetic than the others?  I mean, did any of those versions (if there
are more than one) observe a particular metrical form that is
different than what native speakers would otherwise have gone for?


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From ced44 at cam.ac.uk  Tue Oct 10 16:25:09 2006
From: ced44 at cam.ac.uk (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:25:09 +0100
Subject: Homosexuality in Nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.10.OCT.2006.172509.0100.CED44@CAM.AC.UK>

Dear colleagues,

I am doing some work on homosexuality and 'unconventional' sexuality and gender identity in Aztec culture and wondered if anyone had any opinions on Geoffrey Kimball's retranslations of the Florentine Codex passages on homosexuality. The article reference is: Geoffrey Kimball, 'Aztec Homosexuality: the Textual Evidence', Journal of Homosexuality, 26.1 (1993), pp.7-24. Whilst his suspicion of the Dibble and Anderson translation seems reasonable at times, however, his own interpretations often seem a little loaded with modern references, so I would be very interested to hear any thoughts on his retranslations. In particular, he takes issue with the use of the term 'patlache' to mean 'hermaphrodite', contending that it should instead be translated as 'homosexual woman' and that the 'correct' term for hermaphrodite is 'cihuaoquichtli'. 

This material is intended to form a small section of a larger book on life and gender in Tenochtitlan, but is proving rather tricky to pin down! (I am sure it will provide the basis for some later more specialised work as well now.) I would be very grateful for any thoughts and opinions (on- or off-list) on Kimball's work, and also any additional references or pointers which people might care to offer on homosexuality, hermaphroditism, and transvestism in Tenochtitlan. 

Best wishes and thanks,
Caroline Dodds
------
Dr. Caroline Dodds
Junior Research Fellow
Sidney Sussex College
Cambridge
CB2 3HU

Tel: 01223 (3)30867
Mob: 07740675610
Email: ced44 at cam.ac.uk
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From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Mon Oct 16 23:14:51 2006
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:14:51 -0700
Subject: poetry question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.62.0605171050270.20551@steel09.uits.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.16.OCT.2006.161451.0700.MMONTCHA@OREGONVOS.NET>

What kind of poetry was most common in Classical Nahuatl?

I'm embarrassed to ask, but can certain syllables become long by
'position' like they can in Latin (admittedly a wholly different
language)?  Is the most important thing about poetry in Classical
Nahuatl the metrification of syllabic feet, that is, the way 'feet'
are divided into predictable series of long and short syllables
(disregarding syllabic stress)?

When the Spanish missionaries introduced their hymns, were any
of these translated into Nahuatl?

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Oct 17 15:06:09 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:06:09 -0400
Subject: poetry question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610161607230.12467-100000@lab.oregonvos.net >
Message-ID: <TUE.17.OCT.2006.110609.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Oct 17 15:07:32 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:07:32 -0400
Subject: QUERY: Chapultepec aqueduct
Message-ID: <TUE.17.OCT.2006.110732.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Does anyone have a photo (or know of a web location that does) of the 
aqueduct that runs down the middle of Chapultepec Ave. just south of 
the Pink Zone?  I need one for a project I'm working on.

Thanks in advance.



John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu  Wed Oct 18 14:40:39 2006
From: jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu (Jeanne Gillespie)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:40:39 -0500
Subject: poetry question
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20061017105409.01ba7dd0@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.OCT.2006.094039.0500.JEANNE.GILLESPIE@USM.EDU>

Richard Haly did some very interesting work that provides a good start on
Nahuatl poetics related to drum rhythms and syllables from the Cantares
mexicanos and the drumming notation these texts contain.  Check out: Haly,
Richard. ³The Poetics of the Aztecs.² New Scholar 10 (1986): 85-133. (an
³oldie but goodie²). These texts also contain wonderful examples of how
Nahuatl poetic forms were adapted to colonial realities.
Jeanne

-- 
Jeanne L. Gillespie, Ph.D.
The University of Southern Mississippi
Associate Dean, College of Arts and Letters
Hattiesburg, Mississippi
http://www.usm.edu/colleges/coal/
Jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu
601.266.4315




On 10/17/06 10:06 AM, "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu> wrote:

> At 07:14 PM 10/16/2006, you wrote:
>> I'm embarrassed to ask, but can certain syllables become long by
>> 'position' like they can in Latin (admittedly a wholly different
>> language)?  Is the most important thing about poetry in Classical
>> Nahuatl the metrification of syllabic feet, that is, the way 'feet'
>> are divided into predictable series of long and short syllables
>> (disregarding syllabic stress)?
>> 
>> When the Spanish missionaries introduced their hymns, were any
>> of these translated into Nahuatl?
> 
> 
> 
> These are really important questions, and unfortunately know one knows all of
> the answers. 
> Syllables do not seem to become long, and the metre is not entirely clear,
> unlike European models with iambic pentameter, or in Spanish where we measure
> the number of syllables in the line.
> 
>  Fran Karttunen and Jim Lockhart considered many of these questions in their
> article in Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl:
> 
> Karttunen, Frances and James Lockhart, ³La estructura de la poesía Nahuatl
> vista por sus variantes,² Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl, vol. 14 (1980), pp.
> 15-64.
> 
> You can also see my article "The Pre-Hispanic Poetics of Sahagun's Psalmodia
> Cristiana, also in ECN vol. 36 (2005), pp. 67-86.
> 
> We know that some European hymns were translated into Nahuatl, but the most
> famous are Sahagun's Nahuatl hymns in the Psalmodia
> 
> 
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> 
> 315-267-2100
> 315-267-2496 fax
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From villas at anawak.com  Thu Oct 19 17:49:17 2006
From: villas at anawak.com (villas)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:49:17 -0400
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
Message-ID: <THU.19.OCT.2006.134917.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

What is the noun in nahuatl for Walking Eagle?
  My options are so far

Nenemicuauhtli

Cuautlinenemi

which one if any is correct or other suggestions.

Marcos







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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Fri Oct 20 08:13:56 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:13:56 +0100
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
Message-ID: <FRI.20.OCT.2006.091356.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- villas <villas at anawak.com> wrote:
> What is the noun in nahuatl for Walking Eagle?
>   My options are so far
> Nenemicuauhtli
> Cuautlinenemi
> which one if any is correct or other suggestions. Marcos

In the Nahuatl name Cuauhtemoc = "Descending (= Swooping) Eagle" (an 
emperor), the noun comes first.

Citlalyani



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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Fri Oct 20 05:17:47 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:17:47 +0100
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <60bdd0243f6a3e7d8c3c4367b05891f0@anawak.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.OCT.2006.061747.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- villas <villas at anawak.com> wrote:
> What is the noun in nahuatl for Walking Eagle?
>   My options are so far
> Nenemicuauhtli
> Cuautlinenemi
> which one if any is correct or other suggestions. Marcos

In the Nahuatl name Cuauhtemoc = "Descending (= Swooping) Eagle" (an 
emperor), the noun comes first.

Citlalyani

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Oct 20 15:20:08 2006
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:20:08 -0400
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <20061020081356.85621.qmail@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.OCT.2006.112008.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

    I don't have a lot against rough translations like "Descending Eagle" 
for general purposes, but people in the Nahuat-l group are focused to some 
degree on how the language works, we could get a little closer by looking, 
not at traditional translations for names, but at the way word formation 
functions in common vocabulary.

    First, Nahuatl lets preterit verb forms function like nouns:

    form               literal           functional meaning

    temictihqui        he killed s.o.    killer
     (I realize that it involves an "act of faith" to classify
     this -qui form as a preterit in "classical" Nahuatl)

    tlaneloh           he stirred s.t.   rower, one who rows

    otemoc             it descended      digested food
                                          (Molina's words, not mine)



    Nouns can be incorporated into verbs as objects:

    ni-naca-cua        I meat-eat

    ti-neuc-namaca     you sell honey or maguey syrup


    Nouns can also be incorporated into verbs in an adverbial function:

    coyo-nehnemi       he walks like a coyote (on all fours)

    nite-ma-quixtia    I extract s.o. (e.g., from danger) [by the hand]

    ti-nech-nacaz-itta you look at me sideways (possibly lovingly),
                       you look at me ear-ly (no matter what time it is)


So, cuauhtemoc is the preterit of temo, modified by cuauhtli (eagle):
  he descended like an eagle, he is a descender in the manner of eagles.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe


On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote:

>
> In the Nahuatl name Cuauhtemoc = "Descending (= Swooping) Eagle" (an
> emperor), the noun comes first.
>
> Citlalyani
>
>
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From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de  Fri Oct 20 21:30:49 2006
From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:30:49 +0200
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <20061020051748.86014.qmail@web86704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.OCT.2006.233049.0200.H.KAMMLER@EM.UNIFRANKFURT.DE>

I think Cuauhtemoc rather means "descended in eagle fashion, like an 
eagle", so Cuauhnenemi would be "walks like an eagle".

For "Walking Eagle" I would vaguely guess Nenemilizcuauhtli.

I don't know if a historical example can be found for this as a 
personal name. In case this name should be used for someone or 
something (like a company), think about it twice. An eagle that walks 
doesn't look majestic at all, lumping, swaying from side to side. In 
Native North America the "Walking Eagle"-name is a runnig joke, a name 
that would be given to nonnative politicians in fake "adoption" 
ceremonies. It boils down to ... why can't the eagle fly? ... various 
possible answers ...

Just my 2 cents on this aspect.

Henry

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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Fri Oct 20 22:26:16 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:26:16 +0100
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <20061020233049.o93p5ak0tcg04sc0@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.OCT.2006.232616.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- Henry Kammler <h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:
>... For "Walking Eagle" I would vaguely guess Nenemilizcuauhtli.
> ...An eagle that walks doesn't look majestic at all, lumping, swaying
> from side to side. In Native North America the "Walking Eagle"-name
> is a running joke, a name that would be given to non-native
> politicians in fake "adoption" ceremonies. ...

Birds of prey (except vultures) are usually awkward when walking on the
ground because of their talons. It is a bit like a scuba diver on land
trying to walk in fins. Ask on http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/ .

Citlalyani.

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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Sun Oct 22 08:51:54 2006
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:51:54 +0200
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 23, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <200610211700.k9LH0V8u027623@www.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <SUN.22.OCT.2006.105154.0200.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

In Hueyapan nawatl there is a a word for walking with open legs like a
vulture: "tlakahkaloa"
Magnus

On 21/10/06, nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org <
nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:
>
> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
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>
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: pronoun walking eagle (Henry Kammler)
>    2. Re: pronoun walking eagle (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Henry Kammler <h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:30:49 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pronoun walking eagle
> I think Cuauhtemoc rather means "descended in eagle fashion, like an
> eagle", so Cuauhnenemi would be "walks like an eagle".
>
> For "Walking Eagle" I would vaguely guess Nenemilizcuauhtli.
>
> I don't know if a historical example can be found for this as a
> personal name. In case this name should be used for someone or
> something (like a company), think about it twice. An eagle that walks
> doesn't look majestic at all, lumping, swaying from side to side. In
> Native North America the "Walking Eagle"-name is a runnig joke, a name
> that would be given to nonnative politicians in fake "adoption"
> ceremonies. It boils down to ... why can't the eagle fly? ... various
> possible answers ...
>
> Just my 2 cents on this aspect.
>
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: ANTHONY APPLEYARD <a.appleyard at btinternet.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:26:16 +0100 (BST)
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pronoun walking eagle
> --- Henry Kammler <h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:
> >... For "Walking Eagle" I would vaguely guess Nenemilizcuauhtli.
> > ...An eagle that walks doesn't look majestic at all, lumping, swaying
> > from side to side. In Native North America the "Walking Eagle"-name
> > is a running joke, a name that would be given to non-native
> > politicians in fake "adoption" ceremonies. ...
>
> Birds of prey (except vultures) are usually awkward when walking on the
> ground because of their talons. It is a bit like a scuba diver on land
> trying to walk in fins. Ask on http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/ .
>
> Citlalyani.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
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From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Sun Oct 22 22:01:08 2006
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:01:08 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 23, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <e03a2ea10610220151o468f88ceud81b4453faaf4a87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.22.OCT.2006.150108.0700.MMONTCHA@OREGONVOS.NET>

Help!  Your robot program is not forwarding all of the Nahuatl
activity to my email address, even though I am subscribed to it,
and would like to see it.  Although I do not speak much Spanish,
I guess I can tolerate posts that come along in that language, too.

So, can you please check your robot to see if the activity
generated through Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org is being properly
passed along to me at my account: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net?

I am not filtering anything out on my side.

I think that your robot is filtering things out, and erroneously
stripping out messages that ought to be passed on to me.

Say, is there any way that I can review older message activity in
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org?  (If I have to, I could attempt to boot up
a webbrowser to go there.  I usually get my email through Pine,
a mailreading program that DialOregon.net provides me for use with
my DOS based term program from the 1980s.)

   Matthew Montchalin
   9870 SE City View Dr
   Portland,  OR  97266-6905

   email address:  mmontcha at OregonVOS.net
   voice line:     503-771-3307
   fax line:       503-771-2305

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From villas at anawak.com  Tue Oct 24 14:39:13 2006
From: villas at anawak.com (villas)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:39:13 -0400
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <20061020085830.8cft0r0rw4ookso8@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.OCT.2006.103913.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

Thanks to all, this is very helpful.

My curiosity came from a logo that was used by a truck manufacturing 
company in Mexico, DINA. The logo was a walking eagle putting its left 
claw forward. Too bad it dissapeared as it was rather beautiful, it was 
replaced by some abstract corporate logo.



Marcos






On Oct 20, 2006, at 8:58 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote:

> Interesting question.
>
> We can probably *safely* reconstruct this name based on the Nahuatl 
> verb
>
> <coyonehnemi> literally 'he/she/it coyote-walks', which means 
> 'he/she/it walks on all fours', from <coyotl> 'coyote' + <nehnemi> 
> 'he/she/it walks'.
>
> Based on this grammatical and attested term, the reconstruction you're 
> asking for would be <cuauhnehnemi> 'he/she/it walks like an eagle'.
>
> Note that you have to lop off the nominalizing suffix -tl/-tli/-li 
> before you can attach the noun to other terms.
>
> Another way you could safely approach this name would be
>
> <Cuauhtli Nehnemi> '(the/an) Eagle Walks'.
>
> Michael
>
> Quoting villas <villas at anawak.com>:
>
>> What is the noun in nahuatl for Walking Eagle?
>>  My options are so far
>>
>> Nenemicuauhtli
>>
>> Cuautlinenemi
>>
>> which one if any is correct or other suggestions.
>>
>> Marcos
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
>

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From villas at anawak.com  Tue Oct 24 14:47:03 2006
From: villas at anawak.com (villas)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:47:03 -0400
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <20061020233049.o93p5ak0tcg04sc0@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.OCT.2006.104703.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

I can see there is a significant simbolic difference between walks like 
an eagle and walking eagle. The first implies an out of place and 
akward walk, but the secong might imply a person who has gained 
comparison to an eagle. Subtle but important in a name.

Marcos


On Oct 20, 2006, at 5:30 PM, Henry Kammler wrote:

> I think Cuauhtemoc rather means "descended in eagle fashion, like an 
> eagle", so Cuauhnenemi would be "walks like an eagle".
>
> For "Walking Eagle" I would vaguely guess Nenemilizcuauhtli.
>
> I don't know if a historical example can be found for this as a 
> personal name. In case this name should be used for someone or 
> something (like a company), think about it twice. An eagle that walks 
> doesn't look majestic at all, lumping, swaying from side to side. In 
> Native North America the "Walking Eagle"-name is a runnig joke, a name 
> that would be given to nonnative politicians in fake "adoption" 
> ceremonies. It boils down to ... why can't the eagle fly? ... various 
> possible answers ...
>
> Just my 2 cents on this aspect.
>
> Henry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>

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From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Thu Oct 26 22:36:53 2006
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:36:53 -0700
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <20061020081356.85621.qmail@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.26.OCT.2006.153653.0700.MMONTCHA@OREGONVOS.NET>

Is nepatia one of the reflexive forms of the verb patia, to cure
itself?

The other day I was going through the grocery store, and I was on
the right hand side of the aisle, checking out the shampoos and hair
conditioners.  On my left, however, coming up my way, there was a
woman with a baby in her cart, and another kid walking along beside
her, and as they were going past me, they were going past the place
where the aspirin, cold medicines and cough drops were.  The kid ran
up to the cold medicines and grabbed a box of Ludens Lemon Cough
Drops but the mom took it out of her hand and said, "Nepatia!" and
so, in a word, put it back on the shelf.

When I went home, I looked the word up in Karttunen's Dictionary,
and *think* she had told her kid that, in a single utterance, the
purchase was unnecessary because the problem would take care of
itself:  "it cures itself" - 3rd person singular indicative (active)
present, with the ne- prefix denoting the reflexive voice, more or
less. (I had spent a fair bit of time trying to figure out if it
were some kind of 1st person singular prefix, but eventually decided
against it.)

Did I translate it right?

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From idiez at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 02:39:19 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 21:39:19 -0500
Subject: Fwd: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
Message-ID: <THU.26.OCT.2006.213919.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

> Maybe what she said was "nel patiyoh", "It's really expensive".
> John
>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 5:36 PM, Matthew Montchalin wrote:
>
>> Is nepatia one of the reflexive forms of the verb patia, to cure
>> itself?
>>
>> The other day I was going through the grocery store, and I was on
>> the right hand side of the aisle, checking out the shampoos and hair
>> conditioners.  On my left, however, coming up my way, there was a
>> woman with a baby in her cart, and another kid walking along beside
>> her, and as they were going past me, they were going past the place
>> where the aspirin, cold medicines and cough drops were.  The kid ran
>> up to the cold medicines and grabbed a box of Ludens Lemon Cough
>> Drops but the mom took it out of her hand and said, "Nepatia!" and
>> so, in a word, put it back on the shelf.
>>
>> When I went home, I looked the word up in Karttunen's Dictionary,
>> and *think* she had told her kid that, in a single utterance, the
>> purchase was unnecessary because the problem would take care of
>> itself:  "it cures itself" - 3rd person singular indicative (active)
>> present, with the ne- prefix denoting the reflexive voice, more or
>> less. (I had spent a fair bit of time trying to figure out if it
>> were some kind of 1st person singular prefix, but eventually decided
>> against it.)
>>
>> Did I translate it right?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>

_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From idiez at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 03:04:41 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:04:41 -0500
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <FFACD1C2-764C-4485-8C42-C60021920F98@mac.com>
Message-ID: <THU.26.OCT.2006.220441.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

It also could have been "cheneh patiyoh", "way too expensive". And  
maybe you just heard the last syllable of "cheneh".
John

On Oct 26, 2006, at 9:39 PM, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote:

>> Maybe what she said was "nel patiyoh", "It's really expensive".
>> John
>>
>> On Oct 26, 2006, at 5:36 PM, Matthew Montchalin wrote:
>>
>>> Is nepatia one of the reflexive forms of the verb patia, to cure
>>> itself?
>>>
>>> The other day I was going through the grocery store, and I was on
>>> the right hand side of the aisle, checking out the shampoos and hair
>>> conditioners.  On my left, however, coming up my way, there was a
>>> woman with a baby in her cart, and another kid walking along beside
>>> her, and as they were going past me, they were going past the place
>>> where the aspirin, cold medicines and cough drops were.  The kid ran
>>> up to the cold medicines and grabbed a box of Ludens Lemon Cough
>>> Drops but the mom took it out of her hand and said, "Nepatia!" and
>>> so, in a word, put it back on the shelf.
>>>
>>> When I went home, I looked the word up in Karttunen's Dictionary,
>>> and *think* she had told her kid that, in a single utterance, the
>>> purchase was unnecessary because the problem would take care of
>>> itself:  "it cures itself" - 3rd person singular indicative (active)
>>> present, with the ne- prefix denoting the reflexive voice, more or
>>> less. (I had spent a fair bit of time trying to figure out if it
>>> were some kind of 1st person singular prefix, but eventually decided
>>> against it.)
>>>
>>> Did I translate it right?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Oct 27 04:36:14 2006
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:36:14 -0400
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <E5360B5C-B986-4317-BDC8-59759EB2FC1D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.003614.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

    To add to John's suggestions for alternatives to what she may have 
said, there is a morphological reason for not believing that she said
"nepahtia", 'it cures itself'.  The reflexive prefix for finite verbs is 
not "ne-", but "mo-", so 'it is cured' is "mopahtia".  "ne-" is a 
non-specific reflexive prefix and appears only on *derived* forms of 
verbs (or impersonal forms).

    Examples:

   derivation         meaning           base verb

   nehtolli           vow               ihtoa

   nezahualiztli      fast (act of)     zahua

   necuepaliztli      return (act of)   cuepa

   nealtilo           there is bathing  altia

   nealtiayan         bathing place     altia

   nezomalli          anger             zoma

    I have a more basic problem with the situation that Matthew described.
What would lead us to believe that the woman was speaking Nahuatl?  Could 
it have been one of the other approximately 55 indigenous languages of 
Mexico?  Or a language from Central America or someplace else in the 
world?

    Further, bearing witness to a language event can be dangerous, more so 
in a language not our own, and certainly outside of a situation where we 
can say, "mande?", "come again?", "I'm sorry?" (as some people now say), 
etc.

    One of my own iconic language listening experiences happened about 
forty years ago when I had no doubts about the accuracy of my hearing.
I came out of my house on a winter morning carrying a heavy 
university-owned tape recorder.  When I took my third step down an icy 
sidewalk, I fell flat on my back, probably cushioning my fall by pushing 
the tape recorder down, so that it received the first impact.
    Later that day, I was walking down a hallway filled with the burble of 
students walking by and I narrated the event to an older colleague with 
whom I had a polite relationship.  He replied, "Well, that says something 
about your ability with the taperecorder!"   ...I was stunned that he 
would speak to me with that kind of irony, even rising to sarcasm...
No, he wouldn't say that to me...  If not, what did he say?  I played it 
back in my head over and over.  By the time we had walked about three 
classrooms down the hall, I heard it differently and realized that now I 
had it right...  He had said, "Well, that says something about the 
durability of the tape recorder."

    We just don't hear segment by segment, syllable by syllable, with
total accuracy.

Iztayohmeh

Joe




On Thu, 26 Oct 2006, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote:

> It also could have been "cheneh patiyoh", "way too expensive". And maybe you 
> just heard the last syllable of "cheneh".
> John
>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 9:39 PM, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote:
>
>>> Maybe what she said was "nel patiyoh", "It's really expensive".
>>> John
>>>
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From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com  Fri Oct 27 09:39:30 2006
From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:39:30 -0700
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.023930.0700.GILCHRIST.SUSAN@GMAIL.COM>

Dear listeros,
I'm looking at what seem to be three examples of the same thing, where
breaking a long word into some short words seems to result in a mnemonic for
learning new words, but it can turn into a "false etymology" and/or an
insult:

Chichimeca = dog (chichi) + rope (mecatl)
Dominicanes = God (Domini) + dogs (canes)
Manhattan = man + hat + tan

I found a long explanation online for "domini canes," which eventually
became the basis for the escudo of the Dominicans, but had nothing to do
with their being called Dominicans in the first place (from: "St. Dominic
and His Work, by Pierre Mandonnet, O.P., Translated by Sister Mary Benedicta
Larkin, O.P., B. Herder Book Co., St. Louis/London, 1948. Domini Canes by
Pierre Mandonnet, O.P.," online at
http://www.op.org/Domcentral/trad/domwork/domworka6.htm)
As far as I know there's no explanation for "man + hat + tan" unless it's
that it's an easy spelling to read in English and Dutch (maybe as man + hatt
+ an).
I've found sort of an explanation of chichi + mecatl but am not sure what to
think of it;

> "As the Spaniards and their Amerindian allies from the south made their
> way into Nueva Galicia early in the Sixteenth Century, they encountered
> large numbers of nomadic Chichimeca Indians. Philip Wayne Powell - whose
> Soldiers, Indians, and Silver: North America's First Frontier War is the
> definitive source of information relating to the Chichimeca Indians -
> referred to Chichimeca as "an all-inclusive epithet" that had "a spiteful
> connotation." Utilizing the Náhuatl terms for dog  (chichi) and rope
> (mecatl), the Aztecs referred to the Chichimecas literally as "of dog
> lineage." But some historians have explained that the word Chichimeca has
> been subject to various interpretations over the years, including "perros
> altaneros" (arrogant dogs), or "chupadores de sangre" (blood-suckers). The
> Spaniards borrowed this designation from their Aztec allies and started to
> refer to the large stretch Chichimeca territory as La Gran Chichimeca (the
> Great Chichimeca)." –from  THE DIVERSITY OF INDIGENOUS MEXICO By John P.
> Schmal (http://www.somosprimos.com/spmar02.htm)
>

The reason I'm curious about it is that it seems as though a picture of a
dog attacking a person might relate to "dog + rope." The odd thing about the
picture is that the artist didn't make it clear whether the rope was
attached to the person or to the dog, maybe indicating it wasn't an
eyewitness report by the artist. This is the picture:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg
I wonder whether the horrible attack dog and the mild-mannered coyote might
have to do with the Chichimecas and the Dominicans respectively, since
Bartholome de las Casas was a Dominican. In other words it's a reminder that
Las Casas was horrified by such crimes. (In Christian art dogs are sometimes
very positive and sometimes very negative.) But maybe the dog and rope in
the picture have nothing to do with Chichimecas. My question is whether it
seems as though this picture has to do with bilingual picture writing, where
both a Nahuatl and a Latin word are broken down into short words. In other
words it seems as though the same method of language teaching might be
working in both directions. But on the other hand, is a Chichimeca word
being distorted in order to translate it into Nahuatl and then into Spanish?

Susan Gilchrist
http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/
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From idiez at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 12:10:08 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:10:08 -0500
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610262359570.24340-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.071008.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

In some variants the word-final glottal stop is not a stop at all. In  
the Huasteca, for example, a word-final vowel actually ends in a  
stop, whereas a word-final "glottal stop" just removes the stop from  
the preceeding vowel. This results in an open-ended pronunciation of  
that final vowel with a barely audible non-occluded aspiration. So,  
after taking into account what Joe said, if you did here "cheneh" or  
"patiyoh" you might not have noticed that final "h".
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
México
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx



On Oct 27, 2006, at 2:02 AM, Matthew Montchalin wrote:

> | Maybe what she said was "nel patiyoh", "It's really expensive".
>
> That makes plenty of sentence!  I'll try to commit that one to
> memory.  But are you using the letter 'h' to denote the glottal
> stop?  Still, I don't really think she was using a glottal stop
> that I could hear.
>
>







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From b.leeming at rivers.org  Fri Oct 27 12:34:42 2006
From: b.leeming at rivers.org (b.leeming at rivers.org)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:34:42 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl scholarship
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.083442.0400.>

Listeros,

I posted an inquiry to the list back in July asking for information on who
is currently doing scholarship on the corpus of 16th-18th century
Nahuatl-language documents that is the focus of much of Lockhart’s work.
While I received a few responses (Schwaller, Wood, Gilchrist – thank you!),
my hunch is that there may be more of you actively reading posts now that
the academic year is in full swing and so I would like to pose part of my
original query again.

In particular, it is the second part of my question (which was not
responded to) that I would like to resubmit.  I wrote:

“As a soon-to-be doctoral student who is hoping to focus his research on
Nahuatl documents such as these, I am interested in determining what are
the persistent problems, questions and unexplored avenues that remain.  Or,
put another way, where would you advise a would-be scholar who wants to
work with Nahuatl source material turn his attention?”

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Ben Leeming
The Rivers School
Weston, MA

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From idiez at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 12:49:49 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:49:49 -0500
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
In-Reply-To: <3b19afc80610270239y1e0a2c51n4ce2afc7266c7e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.074949.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

Susan,
	"Chichimeca" doesn't come from "dog" and "rope". "chichimecah" is a  
plural noun meaning "inhabitants of (the altepetl/town) Chichiman". A  
singular inhabitant would be "chichimecatl". The name of the town  
itself can be divided into "-man", an ending for names of towns in  
Nahuatl, and "chichi". There is a "chichi" meaning "dog" which has  
two short "i"s (Nahuatl distinguishes between short and long vowels),  
but the "chichi" in "chichimecatl" has two long "i"s, so it can't  
mean "dog". The "chichi" with long "i"s is a shortened form of the  
root for the Nahuatl words meaning "breast" and "milk".

The analysis of town names in Nahuatl is usually not that difficult.  
On the one hand, there is a fixed set of endings, of which "-man" is  
an option. On the other hand, you need to find out what the beginning  
portion, in this case "chichi", of the town name means. It has been  
my experience that the great majority of these town names are related  
to themes of Mesoamerican sacred landscape. So if you are trying to  
translated one of these names and your options include something  
having to do with landscape components of the migration (Aztlán,  
Chicomoztoc and Colhuahcan), go with that option. There is a very  
beautiful representation (in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca?) of the  
infant Nahua clan founders suckling from a gourd tree. This, along  
with the morphological analysis of the town names, is the kind of  
evidence you would want to look for in order to translate  
"chichimecah" and "chichiman".
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
México
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx



On Oct 27, 2006, at 4:39 AM, Susan Gilchrist wrote:

> Dear listeros,
> I'm looking at what seem to be three examples of the same thing,  
> where breaking a long word into some short words seems to result in  
> a mnemonic for learning new words, but it can turn into a "false  
> etymology" and/or an insult:
>
> Chichimeca = dog (chichi) + rope (mecatl)
> Dominicanes = God (Domini) + dogs (canes)
> Manhattan = man + hat + tan
>
> I found a long explanation online for "domini canes," which  
> eventually became the basis for the escudo of the Dominicans, but  
> had nothing to do with their being called Dominicans in the first  
> place (from: "St. Dominic and His Work, by Pierre Mandonnet, O.P.,  
> Translated by Sister Mary Benedicta Larkin, O.P., B. Herder Book  
> Co., St. Louis/London, 1948. Domini Canes by Pierre Mandonnet,  
> O.P.," online at http://www.op.org/Domcentral/trad/domwork/ 
> domworka6.htm )
> As far as I know there's no explanation for "man + hat + tan"  
> unless it's that it's an easy spelling to read in English and Dutch  
> (maybe as man + hatt + an).
> I've found sort of an explanation of chichi + mecatl but am not  
> sure what to think of it;
> "As the Spaniards and their Amerindian allies from the south made  
> their way into Nueva Galicia early in the Sixteenth Century, they  
> encountered large numbers of nomadic Chichimeca Indians. Philip  
> Wayne Powell - whose  Soldiers, Indians, and Silver: North  
> America's First Frontier War is the definitive source of  
> information relating to the Chichimeca Indians - referred to  
> Chichimeca as "an all-inclusive epithet" that had "a spiteful  
> connotation." Utilizing the Náhuatl terms for dog  (chichi) and  
> rope (mecatl), the Aztecs referred to the Chichimecas literally as  
> "of dog lineage." But some historians have explained that the word  
> Chichimeca has been subject to various interpretations over the  
> years, including "perros altaneros" (arrogant dogs), or "chupadores  
> de sangre" (blood-suckers). The Spaniards borrowed this designation  
> from their Aztec allies and started to refer to the large stretch  
> Chichimeca territory as La Gran Chichimeca (the Great  
> Chichimeca)." –from  THE DIVERSITY OF INDIGENOUS MEXICO By John P.  
> Schmal ( http://www.somosprimos.com/spmar02.htm)
>
> The reason I'm curious about it is that it seems as though a  
> picture of a dog attacking a person might relate to "dog + rope."  
> The odd thing about the picture is that the artist didn't make it  
> clear whether the rope was attached to the person or to the dog,  
> maybe indicating it wasn't an eyewitness report by the artist. This  
> is the picture: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/ 
> b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg
> I wonder whether the horrible attack dog and the mild-mannered  
> coyote might have to do with the Chichimecas and the Dominicans  
> respectively, since Bartholome de las Casas was a Dominican. In  
> other words it's a reminder that Las Casas was horrified by such  
> crimes. (In Christian art dogs are sometimes very positive and  
> sometimes very negative.) But maybe the dog and rope in the picture  
> have nothing to do with Chichimecas. My question is whether it  
> seems as though this picture has to do with bilingual picture  
> writing, where both a Nahuatl and a Latin word are broken down into  
> short words. In other words it seems as though the same method of  
> language teaching might be working in both directions. But on the  
> other hand, is a Chichimeca word being distorted in order to  
> translate it into Nahuatl and then into Spanish?
> Susan Gilchrist
> http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl






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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Oct 27 13:02:47 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:02:47 -0400
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.090247.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

At 05:39 AM 10/27/2006, you wrote:
>In other words it seems as though the same method of language 
>teaching might be working in both directions. But on the other hand, 
>is a Chichimeca word being distorted in order to translate it into 
>Nahuatl and then into Spanish?
>Susan Gilchrist

Chichi is a curious Nahuatl word to begin with, since it does not 
exist in the classic singular absolutive form.  That is there is no 
word "chichitl"  It only exists as "chichi"  This has led some 
scholars to assume that it was a word borrowed from some other 
language.  There are two other Nahuatl words that on the surface are 
similar.  The verb to suckle "chi:chi:-" written with two long 
vowels, and the word for saliva "chihchitl", and lastly to another 
verb "chihchi-" to mend or patch something.

I would guess that this is an instance of a false etymology.  If it 
were done by a Dominican, it might well be influenced by the verbal 
pun that is used in iconography of the "dog of God."



John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From arnibionic at yahoo.de  Fri Oct 27 13:10:08 2006
From: arnibionic at yahoo.de (=?iso-8859-1?q?Arnd=20S=F6lling?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:10:08 +0200
Subject: Etymology of Chichimeca
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.151008.0200.ARNIBIONIC@YAHOO.DE>

Dear Listeros,

Im also curious about the etymology of the expression cichimeca.
I always thought that it was made up by the plural of the chichi `dogs´, so chichime, as people might have called the `savages´ from the north, and than later, -ca(tl) (being) was attached in order to express a meaning like dog(s)-like person ( I am aware that by normal nahuatl rules the composition should be chichicame. maybe some kind of metathesis operated here?).
Well, just wanted to through my ideas in,

Greetings,
Arnd Sölling

 		
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From pgarcia at indiana.edu  Fri Oct 27 13:27:21 2006
From: pgarcia at indiana.edu (Pablo Garcia)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:27:21 -0400
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
In-Reply-To: <3b19afc80610270239y1e0a2c51n4ce2afc7266c7e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.092721.0400.PGARCIA@INDIANA.EDU>

Listeros,


Don Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl goes on about the chichimeca, from 
which he could claim descent through his great-great-great grandfather, 
Nezahualcoyotl. In the _Historia de la nacion chichimeca_ he says that 
the term chichimeca does not mean, as some think, the "mamones" but the 
eagles and that the word is not Nahuatl.
On the other hand, he traces the chichimeca nation back to the Gran 
Chichimeca Xolotl, whose name-glyph in the Codice Xolotl is a dog head 
-- and apparently the god Xolotl, a messenger, was often represented as 
a dog. So, perhaps, Chichimeca, does relate to the dog lineage --the 
line of Xolotl-- but not necessarily in disparaging terms. At least not 
originally, and certainly not in don Fernando's view ---he may or may 
not be right about the etymology of the word, but there is no doubt 
about his views about the chichimeca people.


Saludos,
Pablo

Pablo García
Assistant Professor
Modern Languages & Literatures
Saint Anselm College
Manchester, NH 03102
PGarcia at Anselm.Edu


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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Fri Oct 27 13:40:57 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:40:57 +0100
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
In-Reply-To: <20061027092721.qo1o9owlus8skoo8@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.144057.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- Pablo Garcia <pgarcia at indiana.edu> wrote:
> ... So, perhaps, Chichimeca, does relate to the dog lineage --the 
> line of Xolotl-- but not necessarily in disparaging terms. ...

If a dog is thought of guarding the household against wolves etc, the
people may well be thankful of it. Compare the old Irish hero
Cuchullain, whose name means "the hound of Cullan" 9see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuchullain ).

Citlalyani.

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Oct 27 13:59:18 2006
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:59:18 -0400
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
In-Reply-To: <20061027134057.48804.qmail@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.095918.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

I couldn't tell from the original message if the person was asking for 
an etymology of Manhattan, or what.  But, right, it's not Nahuatl. >>:-)

Fran has more experience with Eastern Algonquian than I do, but 
"Manhattan," which would be from Munsee, seems to combine the terms for 
'island' (Manha-) and 'hill' (-attan). In a distant cousin language I 
know, Miami-Illinois, the first term is /minahanw-/ and the second 
/atenw-/. I find the double -tt- curious, though. Such doubling of 
consonants by European records often points to a long vowel in the 
vicinity or to a preaspirated consonant.

Michael

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Oct 27 14:25:36 2006
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:25:36 -0400
Subject: Placename: Chalco
In-Reply-To: <E9742D5D-527B-4569-BE59-D6D7D97FED37@mac.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.102536.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

    Encouraged by the discussion of "chichimeca", I am wondering if I could 
get some help on "Chalco".  I'd like to resolve it in relation to words 
like:

    chalcatl          person from Chalco
    chalcatlatoque    Chalcan rulers
    mochalcanenequi   he pretends to be a Chalcan
    mochalcachichiuh  he adorned himself as a Chalcan
    chalcayotl        stuff relating to Chalco

Tlazohcamatitzin,

Joe

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From mwswanton at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 27 14:59:09 2006
From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:59:09 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl scholarship
In-Reply-To: <OF54712127.5AC2A052-ON85257214.0045188A-85257214.004518A0@rivers.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.075909.0700.MWSWANTON@YAHOO.COM>

Lockhart’s "New Philology" clearly represents an
enduring contribution to understanding indigenous
culture during Spanish colonial rule. It has
contributed significantly to the view that cultural
change during that time was not the simple
displacement of indigenous culture, but rather
functioned through already existing indigenous
mechanisms and ways of understanding. It is a
extremely important historical school. There are many
consequences to their work, which provides an
important base for all future investigation. I’m a big
fan of New Philology.

I believe however that it can, and should, be
expanded. The following suggestions come to mind:
1. The selection of sources. Most of the major sources
used by the new philologists are located in national
or foreign archives and libraries. Very little work
has been carried out in more local archives, I suspect
because of their poor organization and difficult
access. The mayordomía archives are practically
untouched. A worthwhile project you might consider is
the organization of a local archive. Not only might
that provide a solid case study, the basis for which
major synthetic studies are built, but it will
contribute to the preservation of the Nahuas
historical patrimony.

2. Interdisciplinary study. In their method, the new
philologists’ study ends where the text ends. The
contextualization of the Nahua ancestral documents
reaches little beyond the texts themselves. It is
uncommon that data from archaeology, cultural
geography, linguistics, contemporary social structure,
historical architecture, etc. are ever brought to bear
on issues raised in the texts under examination. Thus,
in his major synthetic study, Lockhart dedicates a
whole section to the architectural layout of colonial
households, yet never considers the mass of
archaeological data that directly relates to this
issue. Such data can potentially enrich the reading
and interpretation of the texts considerably, but its
use would involve transgressing disciplinary
boundaries and leaving the domain of traditional,
document-based history. Mesoamerica is a rewarding
area for interdisciplinary study. 

3. The study of post-Independent Mexico Nahuas. New
Philology invariably studies texts that are temporally
limited to the centuries of Spanish colonial rule.
Writing in indigenous languages continued after the
colony, and, though considerably different in its
content and audience, this too reflects social
realities of Indigenous Mexico. Moreover, in Mexico
and Guatemala today, many Native Americans continue to
produce texts, both written and oral, in their
languages. While recognizing continuity in indigenous
ways of understanding during the dramatic changes from
the precolonial to colonial periods, New Philology has
not incorporated indigenous cultural continuity after
1821 into their investigations. The great Hellenist
Milman Parry, significantly changed how we understand
the classical Greek texts by studying early 20th
century oral literature in Yugoslavia. I am convinced
the study of modern oral literature, speech genres and
rhetorical devises would shed much light on the older
texts. In general, it has been my experience that
trying to understand the present day realities of
indigenous life will help inspire and ground your work
in new and unexpected ways.

Saludos,
Michael Swanton


--- b.leeming at rivers.org wrote:

> 
> Listeros,
> 
> I posted an inquiry to the list back in July asking
> for information on who
> is currently doing scholarship on the corpus of
> 16th-18th century
> Nahuatl-language documents that is the focus of much
> of Lockhart’s work.
> While I received a few responses (Schwaller, Wood,
> Gilchrist – thank you!),
> my hunch is that there may be more of you actively
> reading posts now that
> the academic year is in full swing and so I would
> like to pose part of my
> original query again.
> 
> In particular, it is the second part of my question
> (which was not
> responded to) that I would like to resubmit.  I
> wrote:
> 
> “As a soon-to-be doctoral student who is hoping to
> focus his research on
> Nahuatl documents such as these, I am interested in
> determining what are
> the persistent problems, questions and unexplored
> avenues that remain.  Or,
> put another way, where would you advise a would-be
> scholar who wants to
> work with Nahuatl source material turn his
> attention?”
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> Ben Leeming
> The Rivers School
> Weston, MA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 


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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Oct 27 15:39:18 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:39:18 -0400
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.113918.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

I didn't do all my home work when I first posted and inadvertently 
reaffirmed a false assumption.  Going back to Karttunen's Dictionary, 
I now see that the word "chichimeca" has long vowels, I hadn't 
realized.  In fact the word is : chi:chi:me:catl  She goes on to note 
that as a result of the vowel length the word is NOT related to words 
for dog, rags, or bitter.  "It is possibly derivationally related to 
chi:chi:- 'to suckle.'"

So in fact the word is NOT derived from dog, but from something else, 
possibly "to suckle."



John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From idiez at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 17:08:06 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:08:06 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl scholarship
In-Reply-To: <20061027145909.92724.qmail@web31707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.120806.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

Michael,
          A few months ago there was a discussion about how people on  
the list got into Nahuatl. I have been putting off making my  
contribution, but your mail on the “New Philology” has given me  
good excuse to do it now. Let me start off by saying that I consider  
myself within that tradition.
          While doing my MA in Spanish at USC, I took a course in  
Latin American Colonial Literature with Mabel Moraña, and read  
“Visión de los vencidos” by Miguel León Portilla. After asking  
myself why I couldn’t read the texts in the original language, I  
searched around LA for someplace to study Nahuatl. I took two  
semesters of Classical Nahuatl with William Bright at UCLA, using  
Andrew’s text and workbook, which accompany me, rebound, to this  
day. At the same time I approached Jim Lockhart who, although I  
wasn’t a student of his, generously (a characteristic that  
distinguishes him) invited me to participate in the informal study  
group he held at his home. So for the next two years, twice a month,  
I sat at Jim’s kitchen table with other grad students, read and  
commented Carochi, and parsed, analyzed and translated mundane  
Nahuatl documents. Using the expression that Joe and others have  
used, I was hooked immediately. I think there are two things that  
were involved in the start of this love affair. First, Nahuatl  
grammar is a beautifull piece of machinery: everything is systematic  
and easily understandable (the only exceptions I can think of are the  
Classical plural noun endings, and the passive/applicative/causative  
verb radicals). Second, reading mundane documents lets you sit down  
with an indian who lived 300 hundred years ago and listen to his or  
her comments written in Nahuatl on daily life and interactions with  
Spaniards. It’s fascinating. And I think this an aspect of New  
Philology that has integrated itself into the work I do with native  
speakers. More on this in a moment.
          USC wouldn’t let me use Nahuatl to satisfy my second  
language requirement. They said I needed to study a real language, so  
I took two semesters of Latin, and then forgot it. I went on to do my  
Ph.D. in Literature at UCSD. My dissertation, "Procesos de sujeción  
colonial en el municipio tlaxcalteca del siglo XVI y la respuesta  
indígena," was basically a discourse analysis of the Nahuatl text of  
Las Actas de Tlaxcala.
          I returned to Zacatecas in 1993 with my family (my wife and  
I met while I was studying to be an elementary school teacher at the  
Escuela Normal “Manuel Avila Camacho” in Zacatecas, 1977-1981),  
and began to work in the Facultad de Humanidades at the Universidad  
Autónoma de Zacatecas, teaching classes in Hispanic Literature,  
Classical Nahuatl, and finishing my dissertation.
          During that time I became aware that there were many native  
speakers of Nahuatl studying as undergraduates at the university. I  
immediately began to work daily with two of them, Urbano Francisco  
Martínez and Delfina de la Cruz de la Cruz. As I began to learn  
conversational Nahuatl, I immediately became aware of the fact that  
Classical Nahuatl and the Modern Nahuatl of the Huasteca were simply  
two variants of a single system: in other words, one set of rules  
explains all. In fact, over the years, I have come to the conclusion  
that if you study either one in isolation, it’s like trying to read  
a book with some of the pages torn out.
          Together Urbano, Delfina and I have developed a series of  
courses in Older and Modern Nahuatl which we teach at the UAZ, both  
during the school year and during the Summer. We also founding two  
non-profit institutes, one in Mexico (Instituto de Docencia e  
Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas) and one in the US (Macehualli  
Educational Research) for the purpose of funding our teaching and  
research projects.
          Currently we have about 10 indigenous college students on  
scholarship working with us in the preparation of a monolingual  
dictionary and a monolingual grammar of Modern Huastecan Nahuatl  
(using “Classical” spelling and word entry conventions). I have  
also recently started working with two students who are native  
speakers of wixarika (huichol), and sometime in the future we will  
offer courses and do research projects in this area. I also work  
currently with mundane Nahuatl documents from Colonial Western Mexico.
          We work on a series of principles:
1. The relationship between Older and Modern Nahuatl (or any  
indigenous) language and culture is one of continuity, not of  
rupture. One can not be understood in isolation from the other.
2. Indigenous students need to study older and modern aspects of  
their language and culture; and they need to review, comment on, and  
participate in (not as passive informants, but as research  
assistants) the Western production of knowledge concerning  
Mesoamerica. They need to be authors of their own projects in this area.
3. Bilingualism is a good thing; the lack of monolingual academic  
(especially reference) materials for native speakers is not.  
Institutions of higher education all over the world) need to realize  
that general education courses in ethnic studies offered in the  
dominant language are of zero value if they are not accompanied by  
courses in indigenous languages taught in person by native speakers.
4. Mexican institutions of higher education need to transform  
themselves from deculturalization machines into spaces where  
indigenous students can study a career in Spanish, and at the same  
time become educated in their native language and culture,  
contributing actively to its revitalization and the extension of its  
use in urban society. However, since in general, Mexico and its  
educational institutions have neither the interest nor the resources  
for developing this, partnerships with “1st world” institutions  
will be indispensable. But they will be indispensable for both sides.
          As I said at the beginning, I consider myself within the  
New Philology. I also consider that the future of this school, as  
well as the future of indigenous studies in general will look  
something like what we are doing here in Zacatecas.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
México
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx
www.macehualli.org



On Oct 27, 2006, at 9:59 AM, Michael Swanton wrote:

>
> Lockhart‚s "New Philology" clearly represents an
> enduring contribution to understanding indigenous
> culture during Spanish colonial rule. It has
> contributed significantly to the view that cultural
> change during that time was not the simple
> displacement of indigenous culture, but rather
> functioned through already existing indigenous
> mechanisms and ways of understanding. It is a
> extremely important historical school. There are many
> consequences to their work, which provides an
> important base for all future investigation. I‚m a big
> fan of New Philology.
>
> I believe however that it can, and should, be
> expanded. The following suggestions come to mind:
> 1. The selection of sources. Most of the major sources
> used by the new philologists are located in national
> or foreign archives and libraries. Very little work
> has been carried out in more local archives, I suspect
> because of their poor organization and difficult
> access. The mayordomía archives are practically
> untouched. A worthwhile project you might consider is
> the organization of a local archive. Not only might
> that provide a solid case study, the basis for which
> major synthetic studies are built, but it will
> contribute to the preservation of the Nahuas
> historical patrimony.
>
> 2. Interdisciplinary study. In their method, the new
> philologists‚ study ends where the text ends. The
> contextualization of the Nahua ancestral documents
> reaches little beyond the texts themselves. It is
> uncommon that data from archaeology, cultural
> geography, linguistics, contemporary social structure,
> historical architecture, etc. are ever brought to bear
> on issues raised in the texts under examination. Thus,
> in his major synthetic study, Lockhart dedicates a
> whole section to the architectural layout of colonial
> households, yet never considers the mass of
> archaeological data that directly relates to this
> issue. Such data can potentially enrich the reading
> and interpretation of the texts considerably, but its
> use would involve transgressing disciplinary
> boundaries and leaving the domain of traditional,
> document-based history. Mesoamerica is a rewarding
> area for interdisciplinary study.
>
> 3. The study of post-Independent Mexico Nahuas. New
> Philology invariably studies texts that are temporally
> limited to the centuries of Spanish colonial rule.
> Writing in indigenous languages continued after the
> colony, and, though considerably different in its
> content and audience, this too reflects social
> realities of Indigenous Mexico. Moreover, in Mexico
> and Guatemala today, many Native Americans continue to
> produce texts, both written and oral, in their
> languages. While recognizing continuity in indigenous
> ways of understanding during the dramatic changes from
> the precolonial to colonial periods, New Philology has
> not incorporated indigenous cultural continuity after
> 1821 into their investigations. The great Hellenist
> Milman Parry, significantly changed how we understand
> the classical Greek texts by studying early 20th
> century oral literature in Yugoslavia. I am convinced
> the study of modern oral literature, speech genres and
> rhetorical devises would shed much light on the older
> texts. In general, it has been my experience that
> trying to understand the present day realities of
> indigenous life will help inspire and ground your work
> in new and unexpected ways.
>
> Saludos,
> Michael Swanton
>
>
> --- b.leeming at rivers.org wrote:
>
>>
>> Listeros,
>>
>> I posted an inquiry to the list back in July asking
>> for information on who
>> is currently doing scholarship on the corpus of
>> 16th-18th century
>> Nahuatl-language documents that is the focus of much
>> of Lockhartâ•˙s work.
>> While I received a few responses (Schwaller, Wood,
>> Gilchrist â•„ thank you!),
>> my hunch is that there may be more of you actively
>> reading posts now that
>> the academic year is in full swing and so I would
>> like to pose part of my
>> original query again.
>>
>> In particular, it is the second part of my question
>> (which was not
>> responded to) that I would like to resubmit.  I
>> wrote:
>>
>> ╲As a soon-to-be doctoral student who is hoping to
>> focus his research on
>> Nahuatl documents such as these, I am interested in
>> determining what are
>> the persistent problems, questions and unexplored
>> avenues that remain.  Or,
>> put another way, where would you advise a would-be
>> scholar who wants to
>> work with Nahuatl source material turn his
>> attention?╡
>>
>> Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
>>
>> Ben Leeming
>> The Rivers School
>> Weston, MA
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl






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From Amapohuani at aol.com  Sat Oct 28 01:15:20 2006
From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:15:20 EDT
Subject: Nahuatl scholarship
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.211520.EDT.>

(JListeros:(B

(JI feel that Michael's comments are very thoughtful and I am glad that he has (B
(Jshared them with the list. (B

(J I speak only for myself but I especially like what I take to be his (B
(Jwell-expressed suggestions about aggressively reaching out and incorporating into all (B
(Jof our work whatever is useful and illuminating [and I mean that in both the (B
(Jsense of those doing the work and their audiences, the two not always being so (B
(Jdifferent]. I share that sentiment, only pointing out that individuals and (B
(Jeven small groups of collaborating scholars can only do so much. For example, (B
(JLouise Burkhart and I are going to end up spending twelve very arduous years (B
(Jputting out the four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set. And currently I am on a longterm (B
(Jfellowship at the Newberry Library in Chicago working on some remarkable, and (B
(Jbasically unknown, Carochi papers. I am going to work up a critical edition: (B
(Jand I conservatively estimate three more years on this project alone! I can (B
(Jimagine doing more, learning how to do more, and wish I could do more, but (B
(Junfortunately I am only human. So if new folks want to join in the work and bring (B
(Jnew perspectives and skill sets, IMHO, the more the merrier! (B

(JI would only add an observation. I remember when xeroxes of a few chapters of (B
(JJim's THE NAHUAS AFTER THE CONQUEST were sitting in boxes at UCLA circa 1990 (B
(Jto be read by his grad students. One of those students, Kevin Terraciano, has (B
(Jtaken Jim's place at UCLA, and Kevin's own survey of the Mixtecs is now the (B
(Jequivalent for that group of what Jim's is for early Nahuas. That people might (B
(Jnow find that Jim's THE NAHUAS is not the be-all and end-all [I never thought (B
(Jit was or was meant to be but appreciated it for helping speed the rest of us (B
(Jon our way] and that more work in many directions is necessary and feasible, I (B
(Jfind both fascinating and a bit funny. Whatever it is called, Early Latin (B
(JAmerican Studies, the New Philology [as opposed to the old and now-displaced (B
(Jone?], Ethnohistory, mainstream this or cutting-edge that, work on early Nahuatl (B
(Jtexts is very v ery far from being even modestly 'finished.' It is not an (B
(J'accomplished fact' sitting on the 'road of progress' getting in the way but, to my (B
(Jway of thinking, a constantly moving target -- note that Louise and I have (B
(Jeffectively made Jim's discussion of early Nahuatl theater very thin and dated, (B
(Jbut Jim's work is still very valuable in many respects even as people add it (B
(Jto, modify it, and even replace it. In fact, on a personal note I must say that (B
(JI do not think I will get to see much more than modest advances in my lifetime (B
(Jjust on the textual corpus alone, not to mention all the others directions (B
(Jand projects that Michael lists.   (B

(JAgain, I thank Michael for sharing his thoughts with us and wish him well in (B
(Jhis future endeavors. (B

(JYe ixquich.(B
(JBarry D. Sell(B

(JIn a message dated 10/27/06 8:00:26 AM, mwswanton at yahoo.com writes:(B


(J> (B
(J> Lockhart$B!G(Js "New Philology" clearly represents an(B
(J> enduring contribution to understanding indigenous(B
(J> culture during Spanish colonial rule. It has(B
(J> contributed significantly to the view that cultural(B
(J> change during that time was not the simple(B
(J> displacement of indigenous culture, but rather(B
(J> functioned through already existing indigenous(B
(J> mechanisms and ways of understanding. It is a(B
(J> extremely important historical school. There are many(B
(J> consequences to their work, which provides an(B
(J> important base for all future investigation. I$B!G(Jm a big(B
(J> fan of New Philology.(B
(J> (B
(J> I believe however that it can, and should, be(B
(J> expanded. The following suggestions come to mind:(B
(J> 1. The selection of sources. Most of the major sources(B
(J> used by the new philologists are located in national(B
(J> or foreign archives and libraries. Very little work(B
(J> has been carried out in more local archives, I suspect(B
(J> because of their poor organization and difficult(B
(J> access. The mayordom$(D+?(Ja archives are practically(B
(J> untouched. A worthwhile project you might consider is(B
(J> the organization of a local archive. Not only might(B
(J> that provide a solid case study, the basis for which(B
(J> major synthetic studies are built, but it will(B
(J> contribute to the preservation of the Nahuas(B
(J> historical patrimony.(B
(J> (B
(J> 2. Interdisciplinary study. In their method, the new(B
(J> philologists$B!G(J study ends where the text ends. The(B
(J> contextualization of the Nahua ancestral documents(B
(J> reaches little beyond the texts themselves. It is(B
(J> uncommon that data from archaeology, cultural(B
(J> geography, linguistics, contemporary social structure,(B
(J> historical architecture, etc. are ever brought to bear(B
(J> on issues raised in the texts under examination. Thus,(B
(J> in his major synthetic study, Lockhart dedicates a(B
(J> whole section to the architectural layout of colonial(B
(J> households, yet never considers the mass of(B
(J> archaeological data that directly relates to this(B
(J> issue. Such data can potentially enrich the reading(B
(J> and interpretation of the texts considerably, but its(B
(J> use would involve transgressing disciplinary(B
(J> boundaries and leaving the domain of traditional,(B
(J> document-based history. Mesoamerica is a rewarding(B
(J> area for interdisciplinary study.(B
(J> (B
(J> 3. The study of post-Independent Mexico Nahuas. New(B
(J> Philology invariably studies texts that are temporally(B
(J> limited to the centuries of Spanish colonial rule.(B
(J> Writing in indigenous languages continued after the(B
(J> colony, and, though considerably different in its(B
(J> content and audience, this too reflects social(B
(J> realities of Indigenous Mexico. Moreover, in Mexico(B
(J> and Guatemala today, many Native Americans continue to(B
(J> produce texts, both written and oral, in their(B
(J> languages. While recognizing continuity in indigenous(B
(J> ways of understanding during the dramatic changes from(B
(J> the precolonial to colonial periods, New Philology has(B
(J> not incorporated indigenous cultural continuity after(B
(J> 1821 into their investigations. The great Hellenist(B
(J> Milman Parry, significantly changed how we understand(B
(J> the classical Greek texts by studying early 20th(B
(J> century oral literature in Yugoslavia. I am convinced(B
(J> the study of modern oral literature, speech genres and(B
(J> rhetorical devises would shed much light on the older(B
(J> texts. In general, it has been my experience that(B
(J> trying to understand the present day realities of(B
(J> indigenous life will help inspire and ground your work(B
(J> in new and unexpected ways.(B
(J> (B
(J> Saludos,(B
(J> Michael Swanton(B
(J> (B
(J> (B
(J> --- b.leeming at rivers.org wrote:(B
(J> (B
(J> >(B
(J> > Listeros,(B
(J> >(B
(J> > I posted an inquiry to the list back in July asking(B
(J> > for information on who(B
(J> > is currently doing scholarship on the corpus of(B
(J> > 16th-18th century(B
(J> > Nahuatl-language documents that is the focus of much(B
(J> > of Lockhart$(D+$"o(Js work.(B
(J> > While I received a few responses (Schwaller, Wood,(B
(J> > Gilchrist $(D+$$B!H(J thank you!),(B
(J> > my hunch is that there may be more of you actively(B
(J> > reading posts now that(B
(J> > the academic year is in full swing and so I would(B
(J> > like to pose part of my(B
(J> > original query again.(B
(J> >(B
(J> > In particular, it is the second part of my question(B
(J> > (which was not(B
(J> > responded to) that I would like to resubmit. I(B
(J> > wrote:(B
(J> >(B
(J> > $(D+$)M(JAs a soon-to-be doctoral student who is hoping to(B
(J> > focus his research on(B
(J> > Nahuatl documents such as these, I am interested in(B
(J> > determining what are(B
(J> > the persistent problems, questions and unexplored(B
(J> > avenues that remain. Or,(B
(J> > put another way, where would you advise a would-be(B
(J> > scholar who wants to(B
(J> > work with Nahuatl source material turn his(B
(J> > attention?$(D+$$B".(B
(J> >(B
(J> > Any advice would be greatly appreciated!(B
(J> >(B
(J> > Ben Leeming(B
(J> > The Rivers School(B
(J> > Weston, MA(B
(J> >(B
(J> > _______________________________________________(B
(J> > Nahuatl mailing list(B
(J> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org(B
(J> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl(B
(J> >(B
(J> (B
(J> (B
(J> __________________________________________________(B
(J> Do You Yahoo!?(B
(J> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around(B
(J> http://mail.yahoo.com(B
(J> _______________________________________________(B
(J> Nahuatl mailing list(B
(J> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org(B
(J> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl(B
(J> (B

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From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com  Sat Oct 28 06:24:27 2006
From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:24:27 -0700
Subject: manhattan
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.232427.0700.GILCHRIST.SUSAN@GMAIL.COM>

>
> I couldn't tell from the original message if the person was asking for
> an etymology of Manhattan, or what.  But, right, it's not Nahuatl. >>:-)
>
>
I'm sorry I was unclear, I meant to cite "man + hat + tan" just as an
example of something that isn't an etymology. I think it's just a way
for school children to remember the double t. At the same time, it
might be that whoever transcribed what the local Manhattanite said was
the name tried to spell it in an easy way.
Susan Gilchrist
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From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com  Sat Oct 28 07:41:10 2006
From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:41:10 -0700
Subject: chichimeca
Message-ID: <SAT.28.OCT.2006.004110.0700.GILCHRIST.SUSAN@GMAIL.COM>

Thinking about it a different way, I wonder if the
Coyoacan picture<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg>relates
to the wolf
of Gubbio <http://www.assisiweb.com/foto/Pienza_SF_PB200102b.jpg>
and the story of the
wolf<http://www.wtu.edu/franciscan/pages/intro/gubbio.html>in the
Little
Flowers of
St. Francis <http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/flowers1.htm>.
In other words the horrible dogs the soldiers
brought with them must have made it hard for
Dominicans to explain the word play in "domini
canes" and even worse for Franciscans to tell the
story of how St. Francis was able to persuade a
wolf to be nice to people. Plus as the person on
the Dominican website explained, dogs can
stand for priests in general.
So maybe the rope that's attached to the dog in
the picture (or possible to the person the dog is
attacking?) hasn't got anything to do with
"chichi-mecatl" and instead is there to make it
clear that the situation is under the control of the
soldier. It's worse than a wild animal, represented
by the well-behaved coyote in the place sign (or
the dog glyph for one person's name).
That would make sense in European terms where
it would be commonplace to say men were capable
of worse behavior than animals. The idea of a
picture that's recognizable is something that I think
is also a European element (as in Pliny's biography
of Apelles), since the dog is drawn in a European
way.
I was thinking about the Coyoacan picture in terms
of the good dog-bad dog opposition in Murner's
Logica Memorativa<http://webdoc.gwdg.de/edoc/ia/eese/artic20/hoeltgen/fig11.html>,
which might be something that
actually was brought to Mexico fairly early.
I'm still puzzled by the word chichi, even as a loan
word from another language. Were there just wolves,
coyotes, and the dogs we call chihuahuas? Did people
call European dogs perros?
Thank you to John Sullivan for the reference to the
gourd tree in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and to
Pablo Garcia for the reference to the Gran
Chichimeca Xolotl.
Susan Gilchrist
http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/
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From L.Diel at tcu.edu  Sat Oct 28 14:19:10 2006
From: L.Diel at tcu.edu (Diel, Lori)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:19:10 -0500
Subject: chichimeca
Message-ID: <SAT.28.OCT.2006.091910.0500.L.DIEL@TCU.EDU>

I have been researching the painting to which you refer.  I believe you are providing a metaphoric interpretation, but a more straightforward reading of the imagery is called for.  The painting references a historic event in which an indigenous man was ordered to be attacked by the dog (controlled by the Spaniard) presumably for refusing to accept Christianity (notice the rosary Marina holds and the sword held by one of the indigenous men).  The dots at the bottom do reference years (a total of 41) but these are meant to be counted from Cortes's arrival, as is stated in an associated alphabetic gloss in Nahuatl.  My reading of this gloss follows, but if any of the Nahuatl specialists out there have an alternative translation, I welcome hearing it.  My reading of "ynauh xiuyoc..." as "4 years later..." makes sense historically, but I'm not sure if it works linguistically.

Ynacico marques ya onpoualxiuitl once  axcan ynauh xiuyoc yn ya miq tlatoque
The Marques [Cortes] came 41 years ago, 4 years later the tlatoque died.

This translation suggests the annotation was added in 1560, and the events depicted happened in 1523.

Best,
Lori B. Diel


---
Lori Boornazian Diel, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Art History
Dept. of Art and Art History
Texas Christian University


-----Original Message-----
From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org on behalf of Susan Gilchrist
Sent: Sat 10/28/2006 2:41 AM
To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Nahuat-l] chichimeca
 
Thinking about it a different way, I wonder if the
Coyoacan picture<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg>relates
to the wolf
of Gubbio <http://www.assisiweb.com/foto/Pienza_SF_PB200102b.jpg>
and the story of the
wolf<http://www.wtu.edu/franciscan/pages/intro/gubbio.html>in the
Little
Flowers of
St. Francis <http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/flowers1.htm>.
In other words the horrible dogs the soldiers
brought with them must have made it hard for
Dominicans to explain the word play in "domini
canes" and even worse for Franciscans to tell the
story of how St. Francis was able to persuade a
wolf to be nice to people. Plus as the person on
the Dominican website explained, dogs can
stand for priests in general.
So maybe the rope that's attached to the dog in
the picture (or possible to the person the dog is
attacking?) hasn't got anything to do with
"chichi-mecatl" and instead is there to make it
clear that the situation is under the control of the
soldier. It's worse than a wild animal, represented
by the well-behaved coyote in the place sign (or
the dog glyph for one person's name).
That would make sense in European terms where
it would be commonplace to say men were capable
of worse behavior than animals. The idea of a
picture that's recognizable is something that I think
is also a European element (as in Pliny's biography
of Apelles), since the dog is drawn in a European
way.
I was thinking about the Coyoacan picture in terms
of the good dog-bad dog opposition in Murner's
Logica Memorativa<http://webdoc.gwdg.de/edoc/ia/eese/artic20/hoeltgen/fig11.html>,
which might be something that
actually was brought to Mexico fairly early.
I'm still puzzled by the word chichi, even as a loan
word from another language. Were there just wolves,
coyotes, and the dogs we call chihuahuas? Did people
call European dogs perros?
Thank you to John Sullivan for the reference to the
gourd tree in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and to
Pablo Garcia for the reference to the Gran
Chichimeca Xolotl.
Susan Gilchrist
http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/


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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sat Oct 28 16:34:18 2006
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:34:18 -0500
Subject: Placename: Chalco
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.62.0610271015270.17763@steel07.uits.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.OCT.2006.113418.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Estimado Joe:

Como parte de un análisis de las relaciones entre los signos pictóricos y
las expresiones verbales en los manuscritos pictóricos del Centro de México,
me fijé en el signo toponímico tallado en la Piedra de Tizoc, que
aparentemente se relaciona con el señorío prehispánico de Chalco. Es una
banda con forma de anillo, rodeado de pequeños elementos radiales parecidos
a plumas, luego circulitos concéntricos como cuentas, también con una
disposición radial. Del anillo central parece colgar un elemento alargado
con algunas líneas horizontales en su superficie. La composición entera da
la idea de una joya. Para el topónimo verbal Chalco encuentro dos
alternativas, ninguna de las cuales está libre de problemas: “en las piedras
verdes” o “en la depresión”. Después de estas propuestas de traducción
agregué la siguiente nota de pie:

**********************
Algunos autores sugieren una relación semántica entre Chalco y la palabra
chalchihuitl, “la piedra verde” (Berdan, 1992d: 176; Bierhorst, 1985: 74,
75). Garibay (en Durán, 1967: II, 585) traduce Chalco como “en el borde de
la depresión”. Según el Códice Ramírez (Alvarado Tezozómoc, 1980: 18), “El
segundo linaje es el de los Chalcas, que quiere decir gente de las bocas,
porque Challi significa un hueco á manera de boca, y assí lo hueco de la
boca llaman Camachalli, que se compone de camac, que quiere decir la boca, y
de challi, que es lo hueco, y de este nombre Challi, y esta partícula, ca.
se compone Chalca, que significa los poseedores de las bocas”. El
significado que se da de challi (palabra que no se encuentra en el
vocabulario de Molina) refuerza la mencionada traducción de Garibay.
***********************

Las referencias citadas se apuntan a continuación; la última es la fuente
donde aparece la nota de pie reproducida arriba.

ALVARADO TEZOZÓMOC, Hernando
1980 Crónica mexicana escrita por D. Hernando Alvarado Tezozómoc hacia el
año de MDXCVIII, anotado por el Sr. Lic. D. Manuel Orozco y Berra y
precedida del Códice Ramírez, manuscrito del siglo XVI intitulado: Relación
del origen de los indios que habitan esta Nueva España según sus historias,
facsímil de la ed. de 1878, México, Editorial Porrúa.

BERDAN, Frances F.
1992d “The place-name, personal name, and title glyphs of the Codex Mendoza:
translations and comments”, en The Codex Mendoza, vol. 1, Frances F. Berdan
y Patricia Rieff Anawalt, editoras, Berkeley/Los Ángeles/Oxford, University
of California Press, pp. 163-238.

BIERHORST, John
1985 A Nahuatl-English dictionary and concordance to the Cantares mexicanos,
with an analytical transcription and grammatical notes, Stanford, Stanford
University Press.

DURÁN, Diego
1967 Historia de las Indias de Nueva España e islas de tierra firme, 2
vols., Ángel María Garibay Kintana, editor, México, Editorial Porrúa.

WRIGHT Carr, David Charles
2005 Los otomíes: cultura, lengua y escritura, 2 vols., tesis, Zamora,
Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales, El Colegio de Michoacán.

Saludos,

David

**********************
>Encouraged by the discussion of "chichimeca", I am wondering if I could 
get some help on "Chalco".  I'd like to resolve it in relation to words 
like:

>chalcatl          person from Chalco
>chalcatlatoque    Chalcan rulers
>mochalcanenequi   he pretends to be a Chalcan
>mochalcachichiuh  he adorned himself as a Chalcan
>chalcayotl        stuff relating to Chalco

>Tlazohcamatitzin,

>Joe


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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Sat Oct 28 20:41:22 2006
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:41:22 +0200
Subject: Carochis grammar of Otomi
Message-ID: <SAT.28.OCT.2006.224122.0200.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Nawatl listers

I saw that one of you were working with Carochi documents and others had
participated in work on the arte. Now I have a question:

According to the Catholic encyclopedia Carochi wrote a grammar of the Otomi
language which hasn't been published. Is there anything known about it? Its
whereabouts forexample? Does it exist as anything other than a mention? If
it does is it any good and how do I get my hands on it?

Magnus Pharao Hansen
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sat Oct 28 21:50:14 2006
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 16:50:14 -0500
Subject: Carochis grammar of Otomi
In-Reply-To: <e03a2ea10610281341n4dc3f104q4acc14ad766cdfb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.OCT.2006.165014.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Estimado Magnus:
 
The primary reference to Horacio Carochi's Otomi grammar is in *Luces del
otomi*, another Otomi grammar written around 1767 by an anonymous Jesuit and
published in 1893 by Eustaquio Buelna. This priest says that Carochi wrote
an Otomi grammar that had been as highly praised as Carochi's Nahuatl
grammar, although it wasn't published due to typographical limitations
(Otomi has quite a few phonemes that don't exist in Spanish). He says he
copied it in Tepozotlan but lost his copy, although he cites Carochi's work
among other sources. The original seems to have been in the Jesuit library
of San Gregorio in Mexico City, another school for Indians, after the
expulsion of the Sociedad de Jesus in 1767. Manuscripts from the library of
San Gregorio were later dispersed. Some ended up in the Biblioteca Nacional
de Mexico, others in the Seminario Conciliar in Mexico City (where Angel
Maria Garibay consulted some Carochi manuscripts during the Mexican
Revolution). Others were dispersed. Nobody knows today what happened to the
Otomi grammar. If we had it, work on early colonial Otomi manuscripts would
progress at a faster pace than it has to date.
 
I think several existing manuscripts may be attributed to Carochi and his
circle of Otomi-speaking collaborators (among them Francisco de Aguilar, a
native of Tepotzotlan, who translated texts into otomí and added complex
diacritics): (1) The anonoymous *Vocabulario otomi* of 1640 (Biblioteca
Nacional de México, ms. 1497); (2) The *Doctrina otomi* at the Princeton
University Library (Princeton Mesoamerican Manuscript no. 1); (3) Ayer Ms.
1809 at the Newberry Library, Chicago; and (4) the *Sermonario en lengua
otomi* in the Gomez de Orozco Collection, Biblioteca Nacional de
Antropologia e Historia, Mexico. For further information, provenance data
and descriptions of these manuscripts, see my article "Manuscritos otomies
de la Biblioteca de la Universidad de Princeton" (Estudios de Cultura
Otopame, IIA-UNAM, no. 4) and book, *Manuscritos otomies en la Biblioteca
Newberry and the Biblioteca de la Universidad de Princeton* (Guanajuato,
Ediciones La Rana, Instituto de la Cultura del Estado de Guanajuato, 2006).
 
If you find the lost Carochi grammar please let me know.
 
Saludos,
 
David Wright
 
http://www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright/

  _____  

De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de magnus hansen
Enviado el: Sábado, 28 de Octubre de 2006 03:41 p.m.
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Carochis grammar of Otomi


Nawatl listers
 
I saw that one of you were working with Carochi documents and others had
participated in work on the arte. Now I have a question:
 
According to the Catholic encyclopedia Carochi wrote a grammar of the Otomi
language which hasn't been published. Is there anything known about it? Its
whereabouts forexample? Does it exist as anything other than a mention? If
it does is it any good and how do I get my hands on it? 
 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
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From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Sun Oct 29 10:59:40 2006
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:59:40 -0800
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.62.0610262323170.4@steel03.uits.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.025940.0800.MMONTCHA@OREGONVOS.NET>

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, R. Joe Campbell wrote:
|     To add to John's suggestions for alternatives to what she may have
| said, there is a morphological reason for not believing that she said
| "nepahtia", 'it cures itself'.  The reflexive prefix for finite verbs is
| not "ne-", but "mo-", so 'it is cured' is "mopahtia".

Can you describe the difference between finite verbs, and, um,
infinite verbs?  Is it the same thing as transitive and intransitive
forms of verbs?  Or personal and impersonal?  The books I have seen
so far are not very consistent with their descriptions of the
grammatical forms.

| "ne-" is a non-specific reflexive prefix and appears only on
| *derived* forms of verbs (or impersonal forms).

Okay, I'll try to memorize that.  I've got the Analytic Compendium
of Nahuatl Grammar, and the author didn't mention that.  When a
situation "cures itself," I took for something as reasonably
impersonal.  For instance, having the sniffles tends to call
for time, and little else.  (Although I'm inclined to say that
chronic suffering of allergies calls for something else.)

|     Examples:
|
|    derivation         meaning           base verb
|
|    nehtolli           vow               ihtoa
|
|    nezahualiztli      fast (act of)     zahua
|
|    necuepaliztli      return (act of)   cuepa
|
|    nealtilo           there is bathing  altia
|
|    nealtiayan         bathing place     altia
|
|    nezomalli          anger             zoma
|
|     I have a more basic problem with the situation that Matthew
| described.  What would lead us to believe that the woman was
| speaking Nahuatl?

Sheer numbers, I was supposing.  Of course, you are right, it could
be just about anything, but I was hoping (in vain) that "nepatia"
might have been Nawatl (or a language descended from it).  Of
course, it could have been some obscure Indian language from much
farther south, too.

| Could it have been one of the other approximately 55 indigenous
| languages of Mexico?

Sure, there's no telling.

| Or a language from Central America or someplace else in the
| world?

Well, South America even.  You have a good point.  It could be from
just about anywhere.  Even the 'ethnic' appearance of a Latin
American woman doesn't prove anything, either.  The expression could
even have been Spanish, but "Nepa Tia" doesn't make much sense to
me.  The Spanish word 'tia' is a relative, I think.  And 'nepa'
might be onions or mustard seed, or some kind of a condiment or
other, but I'm just guessing.  What tipped the whole thing in favor
of Nawatl was its involving a kid picking up some Ludens Lemon Drops
and the mother saying "Nepatia" and putting it back on the shelf.
(At least the kid had good taste, and knew what tasted good.)

|     Further, bearing witness to a language event can be
| dangerous, more so in a language not our own, and certainly
| outside of a situation where we can say, "mande?", "come again?",
| "I'm sorry?" (as some people now say), etc.
|
|     One of my own iconic language listening experiences happened about
| forty years ago when I had no doubts about the accuracy of my hearing.
| I came out of my house on a winter morning carrying a heavy
| university-owned tape recorder.  When I took my third step down an icy
| sidewalk, I fell flat on my back, probably cushioning my fall by pushing
| the tape recorder down, so that it received the first impact.
|     Later that day, I was walking down a hallway filled with the burble of
| students walking by and I narrated the event to an older colleague with
| whom I had a polite relationship.  He replied, "Well, that says something
| about your ability with the taperecorder!"   ...I was stunned that he
| would speak to me with that kind of irony, even rising to sarcasm...
| No, he wouldn't say that to me...  If not, what did he say?  I played it
| back in my head over and over.  By the time we had walked about three
| classrooms down the hall, I heard it differently and realized that now I
| had it right...  He had said, "Well, that says something about the
| durability of the tape recorder."

hehe  Well, I'm sure to have many more mistakes before I get a grip
on this language.

|     We just don't hear segment by segment, syllable by syllable, with
| total accuracy.
|
| Iztayohmeh
|
| Joe

Thanks for the corrections....  I don't give up this easy.  I always
go to sleep with the Analytic Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar in my
bed before dozing off every night...

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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sun Oct 29 17:39:02 2006
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 11:39:02 -0600
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610290241090.6419-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.113902.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Matthew:

>>From what I've been able to gather, the indefinite reflexive prefix -ne can
substitute the more usual reflexive prefixes n(o)-, t(o)- and m(o)- in
passive and impersonal forms of verbs, in derived causative and applicative
verbs, and in deverbal nouns.

Andrews gives a good example of a reflexive verb transformed into an
applicative verb using the applicative/causative sufix -lia:.
Nicneihya:nilia (ni + c + ne + ihya:na (a > i) + lia: (a: > a)), "I hide
from him/her/it".

The prefix ne- appears with patientive deverbal nouns constructed from
passive or preterite forms of verbs. These have absolutive suffixes (-tli or
-li). The resulting nouns mean "he/she/it that has received the action (or
experienced the state) of the verb". When these verbs are transitive, they
take an object prefix (te:- or tla-) or the reflexive prefix (ne-). Carochi
gives the example ne:machti:lli (sic for nemachti:lli, "learning and study",
from the verb machtia:, "to learn or study"): (ne + (machtia: - a:) (i > i:)
+ (lo: - o:) + li). The passive suffix is lo:, which looses its vowel before
taking the absolutive suffix -li; that explains the double 'l'.

It can also show up in deverbal action nouns with the suffix -liztli (liz +
tli), meaning "the act of (verb)". Carochi gives nepo:hualiztli, "the act of
being arrogant" ("arrogance"), from the verb po:hua, "to be arrogant" (ne +
po:hua + liz + tli).

Saludos,

David

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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sun Oct 29 18:01:04 2006
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 12:01:04 -0600
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610290241090.6419-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.120104.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Matthew:

I've never heard of the *Analytic Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar,* which you
mention twice. I have Karttunen's *An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl* and
Sullivan's *Compendio de la Gramatica Nahuatl* (which I understand exists in
translation as the *Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar*). Is there a new grammar
out, or have you just added a Karttunian adjective to Sullivan's classic
(but phonologically pre-Andrews) study?

Saludos,

David

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From huehueteot at aol.com  Sun Oct 29 20:02:38 2006
From: huehueteot at aol.com (huehueteot at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 15:02:38 -0500
Subject: chichimeca
In-Reply-To: <7517DB28B0FDDB4090098DF6176FD4D1597FC4@fsmaillk1a.tcu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.150238.0500.>

 All:
 
 Somewhere during my graduate days I saw a catalogue of the "horrors" (and they certainly were, even by the standards of the time) of the actions of encomenderos toward their indigenous subjects uncovered by "vicitas" (sp?) or investigative accountings undertaken by the Spanish government. Called "Emperramiento" where a man would be tied to a framework and torn apart by large viscous dogs was common enough that the government banned the activity altogether. There was a general historical treatment of this and other aspects of Colonial Spanish Rule in the early period that detailed this and other atrocities, but I don't remember the author or the title.
 
 Cheers,
    Hugh G. "Sam" Ball
 
 And remember:
 
 "This too Shall Pass!   
 -----Original Message-----
 From: L.Diel at tcu.edu
 To: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
 Sent: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 8:19 AM
 Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] chichimeca
 
  I have been researching the painting to which you refer.  I believe you are 
providing a metaphoric interpretation, but a more straightforward reading of the 
imagery is called for.  The painting references a historic event in which an 
indigenous man was ordered to be attacked by the dog (controlled by the 
Spaniard) presumably for refusing to accept Christianity (notice the rosary 
Marina holds and the sword held by one of the indigenous men).  The dots at the 
bottom do reference years (a total of 41) but these are meant to be counted from 
Cortes's arrival, as is stated in an associated alphabetic gloss in Nahuatl.  My 
reading of this gloss follows, but if any of the Nahuatl specialists out there 
have an alternative translation, I welcome hearing it.  My reading of "ynauh 
xiuyoc..." as "4 years later..." makes sense historically, but I'm not sure if 
it works linguistically.

Ynacico marques ya onpoualxiuitl once  axcan ynauh xiuyoc yn ya miq tlatoque
The Marques [Cortes] came 41 years ago, 4 years later the tlatoque died.

This translation suggests the annotation was added in 1560, and the events 
depicted happened in 1523.

Best,
Lori B. Diel


---
Lori Boornazian Diel, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Art History
Dept. of Art and Art History
Texas Christian University


-----Original Message-----
From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org on behalf of Susan Gilchrist
Sent: Sat 10/28/2006 2:41 AM
To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Nahuat-l] chichimeca
 
Thinking about it a different way, I wonder if the
Coyoacan picture<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg>relates
to the wolf
of Gubbio <http://www.assisiweb.com/foto/Pienza_SF_PB200102b.jpg>
and the story of the
wolf<http://www.wtu.edu/franciscan/pages/intro/gubbio.html>in the
Little
Flowers of
St. Francis <http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/flowers1.htm>.
In other words the horrible dogs the soldiers
brought with them must have made it hard for
Dominicans to explain the word play in "domini
canes" and even worse for Franciscans to tell the
story of how St. Francis was able to persuade a
wolf to be nice to people. Plus as the person on
the Dominican website explained, dogs can
stand for priests in general.
So maybe the rope that's attached to the dog in
the picture (or possible to the person the dog is
attacking?) hasn't got anything to do with
"chichi-mecatl" and instead is there to make it
clear that the situation is under the control of the
soldier. It's worse than a wild animal, represented
by the well-behaved coyote in the place sign (or
the dog glyph for one person's name).
That would make sense in European terms where
it would be commonplace to say men were capable
of worse behavior than animals. The idea of a
picture that's recognizable is something that I think
is also a European element (as in Pliny's biography
of Apelles), since the dog is drawn in a European
way.
I was thinking about the Coyoacan picture in terms
of the good dog-bad dog opposition in Murner's
Logica Memorativa<http://webdoc.gwdg.de/edoc/ia/eese/artic20/hoeltgen/fig11.html>,
which might be something that
actually was brought to Mexico fairly early.
I'm still puzzled by the word chichi, even as a loan
word from another language. Were there just wolves,
coyotes, and the dogs we call chihuahuas? Did people
call European dogs perros?
Thank you to John Sullivan for the reference to the
gourd tree in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and to
Pablo Garcia for the reference to the Gran
Chichimeca Xolotl.
Susan Gilchrist
http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/


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From memoriasmadera at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 29 21:32:48 2006
From: memoriasmadera at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?edgar=20mu=F1oz=20delgado?=)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 15:32:48 -0600
Subject: Poetry
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.153248.0600.MEMORIASMADERA@YAHOO.COM>

Friends:
  Do you know a nahuatl poetry : "nic tzozona ya in tohuehueo anic ni huan o ma  itohua aya... or something?
  Please I need read it.
  Thanks
  Edgar

 __________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! 
Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ 
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From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com  Mon Oct 30 04:58:51 2006
From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:58:51 -0800
Subject: chichimeca
In-Reply-To: <7517DB28B0FDDB4090098DF6176FD4D1597FC4@fsmaillk1a.tcu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.205851.0800.GILCHRIST.SUSAN@GMAIL.COM>

I'm glad you're looking at the Coyoacan
page<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg>more
closely, because
I don't have a good idea of the date of the event or of the drawing,
or earlier drawings that might have been the basis for it. I'm not sure
we've really contradicted each other about the dots, which I'm
copying for clarity:
o   o-o-o-o-o   o-o-o-o-o   o-o-o-o-o   o-o-o-o-o   o-o-o-o-o   o-o-o-o-o
o-o-o-o-o   o-+-o-o-o-o
It seems to me as though the basis for counting is a Biblical-sounding 40
years
made more precise by the extra dot at the left and the cross at the right
in a way that would have made perfect sense at the time.

Does it make sense to say it's some kind of a mix of European and Nahuatl
ways of counting time in any event, since Nahuatl picture writing doesn't
mark
time "ago" and uses dates instead, even if a person speaking Nahuatl might
say something happened "41 years ago"? If the person had stayed with the
normal system, we wouldn't have to wonder whether the event happened in
5-Calli (1523) or 10-Tecpatl (1528).

To me it seems as though an effect of the 40-year count is to make it so
that
everything on the page relates to Bartholome de las Casas and his Brevísima
Relacion<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b75-las-casas-brevissima-p1.jpg>,
including the "tyrants" at the top of the page and the scenes with the
dog and the men tied to a rope. If (combining two ways of doing the
arithmetic)
the idea was that bad things were happening 40-some years after 1492 and
still were happening 40-some years "ago" it's a way of making a very strong
connection to Las Casas and his books, and to the 40 year spans in the
Bible, where 40 years is a very long time, long enough for a generation of
people to die.

So far as metaphor goes, I'm introducing the Coyoacan drawing into a
discussion of a European painting where it seems as though the metaphors
are out of control. The way the artist represented dogs in a hell
scene<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b74-4-tochtli-and-dogs.jpg>is
so over-the-top that people seem to assume it has to do entirely with
medieval images of hell. Then since they're in a hell scene, the implication

is that the victims must deserve whatever happens to them. I think the
artists were representing similar events, but the European artist got a lot
more tangled up in metaphor. But I think the two artists may have been
working within a similar theoretical framework, that is they were both
invoking Las Casas as an authority on how Europeans should view the
events, and they were both looking at the Rhetorica ad Herennium
and the ancient artist
Apelles<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b77%2520apelles%2520and%2520ptolemy%2520eng.jpg>as
models. The story of how Apelles
identified a person by drawing a recognizable picture is something that
would likely have been familiar to a priest teaching Latin, and new to
people who were more familiar with indigenous art.

Another way to look at the Coyoacan picture is that it's a neat solution
to a problem in the Rhetorica ad Herennium, where the anonymous
author seems to think the reader ought to be able to visualize a long
row of "loci" marked in sets of 5 or 10, which is supposed to be an
easy way to remember things. It seems impossible if as the author
suggests, the reader tries to visualize spaces between columns (for
instance the columns in Charles V's palace in the
Alhambra<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b58%2520alhambra%2520cv%2520palace%2520wikipedia.jpg>).
But the
artist who made the Coyoacan picture made it easy to visualize 40
"loci" and/or the spaces between them.

So I'm not really adding anything to what's known about the Coyoacan
picture except to agree that it does seem obvious that the artist/writer
was learning from a priest, which is already obvious from the Roman-
alphabet writing. If the priest was going to say something about a picture,
it's likely he would have cited the RAH and even more likely he would have
cited Pliny. I would like to know more about the picture and its context,
particularly the date. Is there something I could  be reading, besides
your work-in-progress?
Can I add a note based on your e-mail to my weblog, or even attach the
whole e-mail? I don't want to contribute to filling the internet with half-
explanations of things.
Also, thank you for reading the Nahuatl language gloss. I don't know
Nahuatl and was relying on Ramirez, who says

Fig. 6—Sobre la linea de ceros que alli se ve partida por una cruz, hay la
siguiente leyenda:
    Ynacico Marques ya cempoali xihuitl once axcan mauhxiuyoc in ya micque
Tlatoque [=] Vino á dar el Marques a los quarenta años es decir ahora á los
quatro años de muertos los caballeros
Susan Gilchrist
http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/

On 10/28/06, Diel, Lori <L.Diel at tcu.edu> wrote:
>
> I have been researching the painting to which you refer.  I believe you
> are providing a metaphoric interpretation, but a more straightforward
> reading of the imagery is called for.  The painting references a historic
> event in which an indigenous man was ordered to be attacked by the dog
> (controlled by the Spaniard) presumably for refusing to accept Christianity
> (notice the rosary Marina holds and the sword held by one of the indigenous
> men).  The dots at the bottom do reference years (a total of 41) but these
> are meant to be counted from Cortes's arrival, as is stated in an associated
> alphabetic gloss in Nahuatl.  My reading of this gloss follows, but if any
> of the Nahuatl specialists out there have an alternative translation, I
> welcome hearing it.  My reading of "ynauh xiuyoc..." as "4 years later..."
> makes sense historically, but I'm not sure if it works linguistically.
>
> Ynacico marques ya onpoualxiuitl once  axcan ynauh xiuyoc yn ya miq
> tlatoque
> The Marques [Cortes] came 41 years ago, 4 years later the tlatoque died.
>
> This translation suggests the annotation was added in 1560, and the events
> depicted happened in 1523.
>
> Best,
> Lori B. Diel
>
>
> ---
> Lori Boornazian Diel, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor of Art History
> Dept. of Art and Art History
> Texas Christian University
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org on behalf of Susan Gilchrist
> Sent: Sat 10/28/2006 2:41 AM
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] chichimeca
>
> Thinking about it a different way, I wonder if the
> Coyoacan picture<
> http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg
> >relates
> to the wolf
> of Gubbio <http://www.assisiweb.com/foto/Pienza_SF_PB200102b.jpg>
> and the story of the
> wolf<http://www.wtu.edu/franciscan/pages/intro/gubbio.html>in the
> Little
> Flowers of
> St. Francis <http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/flowers1.htm>.
> In other words the horrible dogs the soldiers
> brought with them must have made it hard for
> Dominicans to explain the word play in "domini
> canes" and even worse for Franciscans to tell the
> story of how St. Francis was able to persuade a
> wolf to be nice to people. Plus as the person on
> the Dominican website explained, dogs can
> stand for priests in general.
> So maybe the rope that's attached to the dog in
> the picture (or possible to the person the dog is
> attacking?) hasn't got anything to do with
> "chichi-mecatl" and instead is there to make it
> clear that the situation is under the control of the
> soldier. It's worse than a wild animal, represented
> by the well-behaved coyote in the place sign (or
> the dog glyph for one person's name).
> That would make sense in European terms where
> it would be commonplace to say men were capable
> of worse behavior than animals. The idea of a
> picture that's recognizable is something that I think
> is also a European element (as in Pliny's biography
> of Apelles), since the dog is drawn in a European
> way.
> I was thinking about the Coyoacan picture in terms
> of the good dog-bad dog opposition in Murner's
> Logica Memorativa<
> http://webdoc.gwdg.de/edoc/ia/eese/artic20/hoeltgen/fig11.html>,
> which might be something that
> actually was brought to Mexico fairly early.
> I'm still puzzled by the word chichi, even as a loan
> word from another language. Were there just wolves,
> coyotes, and the dogs we call chihuahuas? Did people
> call European dogs perros?
> Thank you to John Sullivan for the reference to the
> gourd tree in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and to
> Pablo Garcia for the reference to the Gran
> Chichimeca Xolotl.
> Susan Gilchrist
> http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/
>
>
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Mon Oct 30 13:38:38 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:38:38 -0500
Subject: chichimeca
In-Reply-To: <8C8C9AC51746ECF-BC4-7F19@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.OCT.2006.083838.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

At 03:02 PM 10/29/2006, you wrote:
>There was a general historical treatment of this and other aspects 
>of Colonial Spanish Rule in the early period that detailed this and 
>other atrocities, but I don't remember the author or the title.


The book is _Dogs of the Conquest_, by John Grier and Jeanette 
Varner, University of Oklahoma Press, 1983



John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From swood at uoregon.edu  Mon Oct 30 18:41:17 2006
From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:41:17 -0800
Subject: Nahuatl scholarship
In-Reply-To: <20061027145909.92724.qmail@web31707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.OCT.2006.104117.0800.SWOOD@UOREGON.EDU>

Nahuat-L listeros,

I also thank Michael for his good suggestions.  There is so much to  
be done, and I am excited about the research directions of the Leiden  
group. Regarding Michael's first point, one could say that some  
progress is being made in this area.  I found some testaments in  
parish archives, and Cati Pizzigoni's work included some testaments  
from some of these more local archives.  Miriam Melton-Villanueva is  
also working with a cache of testaments which, I believe, are not  
from a national archive.  What is exciting, too, about Miriam's  
sources are how "late" some of them are -- early 19th c.  We have  
often sought nineteenth-century, mundane Nahuatl records, but without  
much success so far.  Getting to more local archives should help.

Another great development is the work of the late Luis Reyes García's  
students. Lidia Gómez García and Raúl Macuil Martínez, for instance,  
are visiting local archives in the states of Puebla and Tlaxcala, and  
are busy digitizing manuscripts in Nahuatl that they find. These are  
very gradually being made available through the Early Nahuatl Virtual  
Library Project that we are developing at the Wired Humanities  
Project at the University of Oregon.  Transcriptions and translations  
will come in time.  (We have no grant for this project, yet --  
suggestions are welcomed!)

We are also digitizing and developing studies of pictorial  
manuscripts in the Mapas Project. For this project, we have just  
landed an NEH grant to develop four of the mapas. The Mapas Project  
is particularly interdisciplinary, with linguists and art historians  
assisting, and while the sources are colonial, we are bringing in  
ethnographic and archaeological information to help us understand the  
content of the manuscripts.  Nahuas in John Sullivan's courses at  
IDIEZ have also agreed to work on some of the transcriptions and  
translations.

Best wishes,
Stephanie Wood
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Sun Oct  1 21:40:53 2006
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 17:40:53 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl movies
Message-ID: <SUN.1.OCT.2006.174053.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Nocnihuan,

   I clicked on the web address that Miguel supplied and saw the list of 
nine movies and wished that HBO or American Movie Classics would schedule 
them for October.

   When I saw the title "Llamatlan", it piqued my curiosity, so I clicked 
on it, thinking that maybe it was a hybridized Spanish word (Lugar de 
llamas).  No such luck -- if I remember correctly, they translated it as 
"Lugar de mujeres ancianas", indicating that someone at some point had 
interpreted "Ilamatlan" incorrectly, perceiving the initial "I" as an "L"
-- and no one in the group knew any better.

You might add:

  http://imdb.com/title/tt0441022/

to see "El muerto", a movie based on the comic book of the same name.
Although it isn't totally scripted in Nahuatl, it does contain numerous
attempts to include Nahuatl phrases in the dialogue.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe

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From Pira at asies.org.gt  Mon Oct  2 18:16:14 2006
From: Pira at asies.org.gt (Juan Pablo Pira)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:16:14 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl movies
Message-ID: <MON.2.OCT.2006.121614.0600.PIRA@ASIES.ORG.GT>



Just for the sake of completeness, The mask of Zorro (1998) has a few seconds of Nahuatl (or something that sounds Nahuatl)spoken by Elena's nanny.  Why would someone living in California speak Nahuatl completely escapes me.

Juan Pablo Pira

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From swood at uoregon.edu  Tue Oct  3 00:01:58 2006
From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 17:01:58 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl movies
Message-ID: <MON.2.OCT.2006.170158.0700.SWOOD@UOREGON.EDU>

There is a documentary series about the Spanish language with an 
episode called The New Spain that has a scene with Spanish conquerors, 
Jeronimo de Aguilar, dona Marina, and some Nahuas using three languages 
to communicate (about foods, mostly).  It is tongue in cheek.

Stephanie Wood

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From david_becraft at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  4 06:12:58 2006
From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:12:58 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl movies
In-Reply-To: <FE9F72251359894CAFC5BD39FFDFDE995D507D@asiessvr01.asies.org.gt>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.OCT.2006.231258.0700.DAVIDBECRAFT@HOTMAIL.COM>

Keno Tinemi,

Something to think about is that many Nawa speaking people have been trading 
back and forth up and down Anahuac for centuries.  Another point is that 
many Nahuas were with the Spaniards in their travels through the southwest.  
Think of some place names in California like "Mexicali" which is clearly a 
nahuatl word meaning "house of Mexi".  Some traditions also have Nahuas 
traveling and having nahuatl placenames like Seattle (Ce-Atl), and Michigan 
(Michican) among many.  Could this explain why the nanny was speaking 
nahuatl in California...possibly.

Pancho


>From: "Juan Pablo Pira" <Pira at asies.org.gt>
>To: <nahautl at lists.famsi.org>
>Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl movies
>Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:16:14 -0600
>
>
>
>Just for the sake of completeness, The mask of Zorro (1998) has a few 
>seconds of Nahuatl (or something that sounds Nahuatl)spoken by Elena's 
>nanny.  Why would someone living in California speak Nahuatl completely 
>escapes me.
>
>Juan Pablo Pira
>


>_______________________________________________
>Nahuatl mailing list
>Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Wed Oct  4 06:49:25 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 07:49:25 +0100
Subject: Nawatl placenames far from the Nawatl-speaking area (was: RE:
 [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl movies)
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F26C3A4162DB108B91973458B1D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.074925.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- David Becraft <david_becraft at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Something to think about is that many Nawa speaking people have been
> trading back and forth up and down Anahuac for centuries. ...
> Think of some place names in California like "Mexicali" which is
> clearly a nahuatl word meaning "house of Mexi". Some traditions also
> have Nahuas traveling and having nahuatl placenames like Seattle
>(Ce-Atl), and Michigan (Michican) among many.

Some of these could be coincidences.
- Mexicali could be a mixtue of "Mexico" and "Cali-(fornia)": there is
a town "Calexico" which is the opposite mixture. 
- Seattle was named after a local Amerindian chief: see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle
- Coalinga in California looks Nahuatl but is a short form of "Coaling
station A" (for railway locomotives, as coal is or was mined there.)

> Could this explain why the nanny was speaking nahuatl in California

One Nahuatl-sspeaking nanny in California could be one stray recent
immigrant.

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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Wed Oct  4 07:58:10 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:58:10 +0100
Subject: Nawatl placenames far from the Nawatl-speaking area (was: RE:
 [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl movies) (P.S.)
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.085810.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- ANTHONY APPLEYARD <a.appleyard at btinternet.com> wrote:
> Some of these could be coincidences. ...

Coincidences are common and very confusing when looking for
relationships between languages. As the common ancestor of two
languages recedes further into the past, their shared history of
related words disappears "under the noise" of unrelated words that look
similar or the same. An example of this sort of coincidence is Arabic
"al" = Spanish "el" = "the".

Citlalyani

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Oct  4 12:18:59 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:18:59 -0400
Subject: New grantee research reports at FAMSI
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.081859.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Hello Listeros,

New grantee research reports at FAMSI website include:

The Champoton Regional Settlement Survey: Results from the 2005 Field Season
by Jerald D. Ek.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05061/index.html

Aztec Elites and the Post Classic Economy: Instrumental Neutron Activation
Analysis (INAA) of Museum Collections from Chiconautla, Mexico (2004)
by Christina M. Elson.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/03019/index.html


Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos del Ingles al Espanol:

Fuentes de Origen del Betun en la Region Olmeca (2004)
por Carl J. Wendt.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/03059es/index.html

Cambio Medio Ambiental y Agricultura Prehistorica en la Cuenca El 
Mirador (2002)
por David Wahl.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/01071es/index.html

Saludos,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/



John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Oct  4 12:26:04 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:26:04 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl movies
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F26C3A4162DB108B91973458B1D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.082604.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

At 02:12 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>Some traditions also have Nahuas traveling and having nahuatl 
>placenames like Seattle (Ce-Atl), and Michigan (Michican) among 
>many.  Could this explain why the nanny was speaking nahuatl in 
>California...possibly.


I think it is far easier to imagine that a Hollywood director did not 
know one native language from another and placed a Nahuatl speaker in 
"The Mask of Zorro" than to imagine that the movie was faithfully 
representing the ethnic mixture of California at the time the events 
supposedly took place.  Hey folks, this is fiction!!!!  Nothing else 
about the movie is historically accurate.  Why should a Nahuatl speaker be?






John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Oct  4 15:05:13 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:05:13 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Aztlan] New find at Templo Mayor
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.110513.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

>From: "Clifford T. Brown" <ctbrown at fau.edu>
>To: "Aztlan" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:37:29 -0400
>Subject: [Aztlan] New find at Templo Mayor
>
>There are a variety of news reports today in the Mexican press about a new
>monumental sculpture and altar found near the Templo Mayor in Mexico City.
>
>
>
>Here is the URL for one article:
>
>
>
>http://www.cronica.com.mx/nota.php?id_nota=264395
>
>
>
>
>
>Clifford T. Brown
>Assistant Professor
>Florida Atlantic University
>777 Glades Road
>Boca Raton, FL 33431
>(561) 297-3232
>ctbrown at fau.edu
>

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From cihuatl at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  4 15:48:17 2006
From: cihuatl at earthlink.net (cihuatl at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:48:17 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl in California
Message-ID: <WED.4.OCT.2006.114817.0400.>

Not only were Nahuatl speakers traveling with Spaniards in the northward expansion, but native languages of Southern California (often named for the mission communities, e.g. juaneno; gabrieleno) include Northern Uto Aztecan Takic- Cupan languages, and thus not unrelated to Nahuatl (although admittedly distant).  Joanna
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From david_becraft at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  7 04:37:57 2006
From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 21:37:57 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl movies
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20061004082339.01c836f0@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.OCT.2006.213757.0700.DAVIDBECRAFT@HOTMAIL.COM>

At 08:26 10/04/2006, you wrote:

"Nothing else about the movie is historically accurate.  Why should a 
Nahuatl speaker be?"


You are correct indeed about the movie, its a work of fiction; and the 
Hollywood Director and Producer probably can't distinguish a Paiute from a 
Mayo, let alone their different dialects or any  Indigenous Californian 
Languages.
I think for the sake of historical accuracy though, nahuatl speakers should 
not be considered historically inaccurate in 1800's California.  There is 
enough Documentary evidence to show Nahuatl and even Otomi speakers in 
California during that time, before and after too.
Take the word "Chicano", obviously a combination of Spanish and Nahuatl, yet 
purely a Californian word that can be attributed to the "Meshica" 
farmworkers who worked alonside the Spanish speaking farmworkers.  /meshica/ 
+ /-ano/ - /me/ + /chi/ - /shi/= chicano

Tlashtlawi,

Pancho








>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>
>To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl movies
>Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:26:04 -0400
>
>At 02:12 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>>Some traditions also have Nahuas traveling and having nahuatl placenames 
>>like Seattle (Ce-Atl), and Michigan (Michican) among many.  Could this 
>>explain why the nanny was speaking nahuatl in California...possibly.
>
>
>I think it is far easier to imagine that a Hollywood director did not know 
>one native language from another and placed a Nahuatl speaker in "The Mask 
>of Zorro" than to imagine that the movie was faithfully representing the 
>ethnic mixture of California at the time the events supposedly took place.  
>Hey folks, this is fiction!!!!  Nothing else about the movie is 
>historically accurate.  Why should a Nahuatl speaker be?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>John F. Schwaller
>President
>SUNY Potsdam
>44 Pierrepont Ave.
>Potsdam, NY  13676
>
>315-267-2100
>315-267-2496 fax
>
>_______________________________________________
>Nahuatl mailing list
>Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From chelodona at argentina.com  Sun Oct  8 03:05:23 2006
From: chelodona at argentina.com (Chelo Dona)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 00:05:23 -0300
Subject: Nahuatl "moves"
Message-ID: <SUN.8.OCT.2006.000523.0300.>

Nahuatl en california...por orden del Rey de Espa?a.

Voy de memoria, pero sobre seguro: Un tiempo despues de caidas las
principales unidades politicas americanas, (imperio mexica, imperio
incaico), la corona espa?ola establecio el USO FORZOSO de DOS lenguas
nativas en todo el continente, a saber: el NAHUATL en norte-centro
America y el QUECHUA en Sudamerica. 

Esto se hizo para facilitar la conversion religiosa que fue el centro
de la incorporacion de los nativos del continente al sistema
socioeconomico de los nativos de Europa. 

En Sudamerica esto, mas el uso de tropas locales de los imperios
recien conquistados como fuerzas de reserva o apoyo nucleadas
alrededor de los espa?oles, llevo a que las lenguas "principales" se
diseminaran por lugares que no habian abarcado antes de la conquista
europea. Varias de las ciudades mas importantes de Argentina fueron
fundadas por grupos compuestos por unas decenas de europeos y miles de
"indios mansos" o "amigos", que tratandose de expediciones que venian
de Peru probablemente fueran quichuahablantes (fundacion de Cordoba,
segunda ciudad de Argentina, de Santiago del Estero, otra ciudad
importante)

Puntualmente en el caso del quichua, se extendio quizas 500 kilometros
fuera de su area de uso anterior gracias a la accion espa?ola. En el
caso de Santiago del Estero: en todo un territorio que NO UTILIZABA EL
QUECHUA antes de la penetracion espa?ola, HOY esta lengua es la
segunda en uso despues del castellano.

La ordenanza que establecia el uso obligatorio del Nahuatl en el norte
y del Quichua en el sur fue sustituida por la prohibicion de lenguas
americanas, y la imposicion del espa?ol, unos cien a?os mas tarde. Por
lo tanto en ese periodo intermedio, a todos los lugares de Centro y
Norteamerica donde llegaron los espa?oles con cierta fuerza, llevaron
el Nahuatl. Estamos hablando de casi un siglo y de una ley del imperio
espa?ol en su momento mas importante.
 
Prometo organizar esta informacion y las referencias.

Marcelo Donadello.

Con fecha 7/10/2006, "David Becraft" <david_becraft at hotmail.com>, 
escribi?:

>At 08:26 10/04/2006, you wrote:
>
>"Nothing else about the movie is historically accurate.  Why should
a
>Nahuatl speaker be?"
>
>
>You are correct indeed about the movie, its a work of fiction; and
the
>Hollywood Director and Producer probably can't distinguish a Paiute
from a
>Mayo, let alone their different dialects or any  Indigenous
Californian
>Languages.
>I think for the sake of historical accuracy though, nahuatl speakers
should
>not be considered historically inaccurate in 1800's California. 
There is
>enough Documentary evidence to show Nahuatl and even Otomi speakers
in
>California during that time, before and after too.
>Take the word "Chicano", obviously a combination of Spanish and
Nahuatl, yet
>purely a Californian word that can be attributed to the "Meshica"
>farmworkers who worked alonside the Spanish speaking farmworkers. 
/meshica/
>+ /-ano/ - /me/ + /chi/ - /shi/= chicano
>
>Tlashtlawi,
>
>Pancho
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>
>>To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl movies
>>Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:26:04 -0400
>>
>>At 02:12 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>Some traditions also have Nahuas traveling and having nahuatl
placenames
>>>like Seattle (Ce-Atl), and Michigan (Michican) among many.  Could
this
>>>explain why the nanny was speaking nahuatl in
California...possibly.
>>
>>
>>I think it is far easier to imagine that a Hollywood director did
not know
>>one native language from another and placed a Nahuatl speaker in
"The Mask
>>of Zorro" than to imagine that the movie was faithfully representing
the
>>ethnic mixture of California at the time the events supposedly took
place.
>>Hey folks, this is fiction!!!!  Nothing else about the movie is
>>historically accurate.  Why should a Nahuatl speaker be?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>John F. Schwaller
>>President
>>SUNY Potsdam
>>44 Pierrepont Ave.
>>Potsdam, NY  13676
>>
>>315-267-2100
>>315-267-2496 fax
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Nahuatl mailing list
>>Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Nahuatl mailing list
>Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Sun Oct  8 16:54:26 2006
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 18:54:26 +0200
Subject: popocatepetl and iztaccihuatl
Message-ID: <SUN.8.OCT.2006.185426.0200.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

I have often heard the story of the two volcanoes in Mexico told as a
supposed Nahua legend of the warrior popocatepetl and the princess
iztaccihuatl who couldn't have eachother and wound up turned into mountains.
The story seems much closer to european romantic myth than to a genuine
indigenous tale, although supposedly some Nahua communities do tell the tale
now (I have read a version from Tetelcingo). Does any one know anything
about the origins of this tale?
 - Magnus -
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From rjcooper at sover.net  Sun Oct  8 19:53:27 2006
From: rjcooper at sover.net (Roger J. Cooper)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 15:53:27 -0400
Subject: popocatepetl and iztaccihuatl
In-Reply-To: <e03a2ea10610080954i2ff4e93bi258e48554e8e1046@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.8.OCT.2006.155327.0400.RJCOOPER@SOVER.NET>

The myth goes even further. Popocatepetl and Citlaltepetel (otherwise
known as the Pico de Orizaba) fought over the love of Ixtaccihuatl. During
the fight Ixtaccihuatl died then Popocatepetl won the fight and kicked
Citlaltepetl all the way to Orizaba. Popocatepetl then lay down by his
long time love, Ixtaccihuatl.
I don't know the origin of the myth, but would love to know it if anyone
has the source.
Roger.
-- 
Roger J. Cooper
Email - rjcooper at sover.net
Email - itzamnaj at verizon.net

On Sun, October 8, 2006 12:54 pm, magnus hansen said:
> I have often heard the story of the two volcanoes in Mexico told as a
> supposed Nahua legend of the warrior popocatepetl and the princess
> iztaccihuatl who couldn't have eachother and wound up turned into
> mountains.
> The story seems much closer to european romantic myth than to a genuine
> indigenous tale, although supposedly some Nahua communities do tell the
> tale
> now (I have read a version from Tetelcingo). Does any one know anything
> about the origins of this tale?
>  - Magnus -
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


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From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Mon Oct  9 22:24:46 2006
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:24:46 -0700
Subject: location of syllabic stress in Classical Nawatl
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.62.0610091103340.14592@steel09.uits.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.OCT.2006.152446.0700.MMONTCHA@OREGONVOS.NET>

Maybe English worries more about syllabic stress than other
languages do.

For verbs that end in -ia, should those two letters be treated
as a monosyllabic dyphthong?  Or is the letter 'i' stressed
because Nawatl usually prefers to have the penultima stressed?

And another question relates to poetry in Classical Nawatl.
Should syllables be scanned for long and short syllables, or
does it make a difference which syllables the stress accent
falls?  Is it possible to string together a number of spondees,
or is it more likely that the natural cadence of the language
will cause spondees to decompose into a mixture of iambic and
trochaic feet?

Along related lines:

I am trying to study the passive voice in Nawatl.  There's a whole
chapter on it on page 73 of the Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar
(Thelma D. Sullivan) but I guess I'm having a pretty hard time of
it.  What really throws me for a loop, is the inscrutable Spanish
spelling instead of a more down-to-earth 'phonetic' spelling.  As I
may have mentioned elsewhere in this list, I have virtually no
understanding of Spanish (but I have also mentioned that I studied
Classical Latin upwards of ten years, both at the high school level
and at the university level).

How did the Spanish missionaries originally translate "Many are
called but few are chosen" into Nawatl?  (I think that this could
make for a good bumper sticker.)

I am using the uppercase H to represent the glottal stop.

Now, if I also use uppercase vowels to represent those that are to
bear syllabic stress, and lowercase vowels for those that are
unstressed, notzaloH ought to be the third person singular present
passive plural form for "they are chosen" and pepenAloH for "they
are called"  (but I also considered the possibility that the second
person plural might also be possible).

What is the proper conjunction to unite these two words so they
take on the sense that is usually associated with the Biblical
verse, "Many are called but few are chosen"?  The conjunction would
be adversative in nature, wouldn't it?  Now, I think the singular
adjective miyek means 'many' but I don't know if a different word
is more appropriate, such as something that means "very often" or
"very frequently" instead.  In Latin, an adverb modifies a verb
much the same way that an adjective modifies a noun, but in Nawatl,
the only reference work I have right now, is the work by Thelma
Sullivan, and that leaves a lot to the imagination, and I doubt
that I can just mix-and-match the affixes willy-nilly, as I feel
like it, and still end up with a sentence that makes sense to
a scholar of Classical Nawatl.

Since Nawatl admits to a more or less free word order, is there
going to be more than one way of rendering the Biblical verse into
Nawatl?  Are any of those versions going to be considered more
poetic than the others?  I mean, did any of those versions (if there
are more than one) observe a particular metrical form that is
different than what native speakers would otherwise have gone for?


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From ced44 at cam.ac.uk  Tue Oct 10 16:25:09 2006
From: ced44 at cam.ac.uk (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:25:09 +0100
Subject: Homosexuality in Nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.10.OCT.2006.172509.0100.CED44@CAM.AC.UK>

Dear colleagues,

I am doing some work on homosexuality and 'unconventional' sexuality and gender identity in Aztec culture and wondered if anyone had any opinions on Geoffrey Kimball's retranslations of the Florentine Codex passages on homosexuality. The article reference is: Geoffrey Kimball, 'Aztec Homosexuality: the Textual Evidence', Journal of Homosexuality, 26.1 (1993), pp.7-24. Whilst his suspicion of the Dibble and Anderson translation seems reasonable at times, however, his own interpretations often seem a little loaded with modern references, so I would be very interested to hear any thoughts on his retranslations. In particular, he takes issue with the use of the term 'patlache' to mean 'hermaphrodite', contending that it should instead be translated as 'homosexual woman' and that the 'correct' term for hermaphrodite is 'cihuaoquichtli'. 

This material is intended to form a small section of a larger book on life and gender in Tenochtitlan, but is proving rather tricky to pin down! (I am sure it will provide the basis for some later more specialised work as well now.) I would be very grateful for any thoughts and opinions (on- or off-list) on Kimball's work, and also any additional references or pointers which people might care to offer on homosexuality, hermaphroditism, and transvestism in Tenochtitlan. 

Best wishes and thanks,
Caroline Dodds
------
Dr. Caroline Dodds
Junior Research Fellow
Sidney Sussex College
Cambridge
CB2 3HU

Tel: 01223 (3)30867
Mob: 07740675610
Email: ced44 at cam.ac.uk
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From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Mon Oct 16 23:14:51 2006
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:14:51 -0700
Subject: poetry question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.62.0605171050270.20551@steel09.uits.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.16.OCT.2006.161451.0700.MMONTCHA@OREGONVOS.NET>

What kind of poetry was most common in Classical Nahuatl?

I'm embarrassed to ask, but can certain syllables become long by
'position' like they can in Latin (admittedly a wholly different
language)?  Is the most important thing about poetry in Classical
Nahuatl the metrification of syllabic feet, that is, the way 'feet'
are divided into predictable series of long and short syllables
(disregarding syllabic stress)?

When the Spanish missionaries introduced their hymns, were any
of these translated into Nahuatl?

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Oct 17 15:06:09 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:06:09 -0400
Subject: poetry question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610161607230.12467-100000@lab.oregonvos.net >
Message-ID: <TUE.17.OCT.2006.110609.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Oct 17 15:07:32 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:07:32 -0400
Subject: QUERY: Chapultepec aqueduct
Message-ID: <TUE.17.OCT.2006.110732.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Does anyone have a photo (or know of a web location that does) of the 
aqueduct that runs down the middle of Chapultepec Ave. just south of 
the Pink Zone?  I need one for a project I'm working on.

Thanks in advance.



John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu  Wed Oct 18 14:40:39 2006
From: jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu (Jeanne Gillespie)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:40:39 -0500
Subject: poetry question
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20061017105409.01ba7dd0@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.OCT.2006.094039.0500.JEANNE.GILLESPIE@USM.EDU>

Richard Haly did some very interesting work that provides a good start on
Nahuatl poetics related to drum rhythms and syllables from the Cantares
mexicanos and the drumming notation these texts contain.  Check out: Haly,
Richard. ?The Poetics of the Aztecs.? New Scholar 10 (1986): 85-133. (an
?oldie but goodie?). These texts also contain wonderful examples of how
Nahuatl poetic forms were adapted to colonial realities.
Jeanne

-- 
Jeanne L. Gillespie, Ph.D.
The University of Southern Mississippi
Associate Dean, College of Arts and Letters
Hattiesburg, Mississippi
http://www.usm.edu/colleges/coal/
Jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu
601.266.4315




On 10/17/06 10:06 AM, "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu> wrote:

> At 07:14 PM 10/16/2006, you wrote:
>> I'm embarrassed to ask, but can certain syllables become long by
>> 'position' like they can in Latin (admittedly a wholly different
>> language)?  Is the most important thing about poetry in Classical
>> Nahuatl the metrification of syllabic feet, that is, the way 'feet'
>> are divided into predictable series of long and short syllables
>> (disregarding syllabic stress)?
>> 
>> When the Spanish missionaries introduced their hymns, were any
>> of these translated into Nahuatl?
> 
> 
> 
> These are really important questions, and unfortunately know one knows all of
> the answers. 
> Syllables do not seem to become long, and the metre is not entirely clear,
> unlike European models with iambic pentameter, or in Spanish where we measure
> the number of syllables in the line.
> 
>  Fran Karttunen and Jim Lockhart considered many of these questions in their
> article in Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl:
> 
> Karttunen, Frances and James Lockhart, ?La estructura de la poes?a Nahuatl
> vista por sus variantes,? Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl, vol. 14 (1980), pp.
> 15-64.
> 
> You can also see my article "The Pre-Hispanic Poetics of Sahagun's Psalmodia
> Cristiana, also in ECN vol. 36 (2005), pp. 67-86.
> 
> We know that some European hymns were translated into Nahuatl, but the most
> famous are Sahagun's Nahuatl hymns in the Psalmodia
> 
> 
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> 
> 315-267-2100
> 315-267-2496 fax
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From villas at anawak.com  Thu Oct 19 17:49:17 2006
From: villas at anawak.com (villas)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:49:17 -0400
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
Message-ID: <THU.19.OCT.2006.134917.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

What is the noun in nahuatl for Walking Eagle?
  My options are so far

Nenemicuauhtli

Cuautlinenemi

which one if any is correct or other suggestions.

Marcos







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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Fri Oct 20 08:13:56 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:13:56 +0100
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
Message-ID: <FRI.20.OCT.2006.091356.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- villas <villas at anawak.com> wrote:
> What is the noun in nahuatl for Walking Eagle?
>   My options are so far
> Nenemicuauhtli
> Cuautlinenemi
> which one if any is correct or other suggestions. Marcos

In the Nahuatl name Cuauhtemoc = "Descending (= Swooping) Eagle" (an 
emperor), the noun comes first.

Citlalyani



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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Fri Oct 20 05:17:47 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:17:47 +0100
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <60bdd0243f6a3e7d8c3c4367b05891f0@anawak.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.OCT.2006.061747.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- villas <villas at anawak.com> wrote:
> What is the noun in nahuatl for Walking Eagle?
>   My options are so far
> Nenemicuauhtli
> Cuautlinenemi
> which one if any is correct or other suggestions. Marcos

In the Nahuatl name Cuauhtemoc = "Descending (= Swooping) Eagle" (an 
emperor), the noun comes first.

Citlalyani

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Oct 20 15:20:08 2006
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:20:08 -0400
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <20061020081356.85621.qmail@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.OCT.2006.112008.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

    I don't have a lot against rough translations like "Descending Eagle" 
for general purposes, but people in the Nahuat-l group are focused to some 
degree on how the language works, we could get a little closer by looking, 
not at traditional translations for names, but at the way word formation 
functions in common vocabulary.

    First, Nahuatl lets preterit verb forms function like nouns:

    form               literal           functional meaning

    temictihqui        he killed s.o.    killer
     (I realize that it involves an "act of faith" to classify
     this -qui form as a preterit in "classical" Nahuatl)

    tlaneloh           he stirred s.t.   rower, one who rows

    otemoc             it descended      digested food
                                          (Molina's words, not mine)



    Nouns can be incorporated into verbs as objects:

    ni-naca-cua        I meat-eat

    ti-neuc-namaca     you sell honey or maguey syrup


    Nouns can also be incorporated into verbs in an adverbial function:

    coyo-nehnemi       he walks like a coyote (on all fours)

    nite-ma-quixtia    I extract s.o. (e.g., from danger) [by the hand]

    ti-nech-nacaz-itta you look at me sideways (possibly lovingly),
                       you look at me ear-ly (no matter what time it is)


So, cuauhtemoc is the preterit of temo, modified by cuauhtli (eagle):
  he descended like an eagle, he is a descender in the manner of eagles.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe


On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote:

>
> In the Nahuatl name Cuauhtemoc = "Descending (= Swooping) Eagle" (an
> emperor), the noun comes first.
>
> Citlalyani
>
>
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From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de  Fri Oct 20 21:30:49 2006
From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:30:49 +0200
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <20061020051748.86014.qmail@web86704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.OCT.2006.233049.0200.H.KAMMLER@EM.UNIFRANKFURT.DE>

I think Cuauhtemoc rather means "descended in eagle fashion, like an 
eagle", so Cuauhnenemi would be "walks like an eagle".

For "Walking Eagle" I would vaguely guess Nenemilizcuauhtli.

I don't know if a historical example can be found for this as a 
personal name. In case this name should be used for someone or 
something (like a company), think about it twice. An eagle that walks 
doesn't look majestic at all, lumping, swaying from side to side. In 
Native North America the "Walking Eagle"-name is a runnig joke, a name 
that would be given to nonnative politicians in fake "adoption" 
ceremonies. It boils down to ... why can't the eagle fly? ... various 
possible answers ...

Just my 2 cents on this aspect.

Henry

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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Fri Oct 20 22:26:16 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:26:16 +0100
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <20061020233049.o93p5ak0tcg04sc0@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.OCT.2006.232616.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- Henry Kammler <h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:
>... For "Walking Eagle" I would vaguely guess Nenemilizcuauhtli.
> ...An eagle that walks doesn't look majestic at all, lumping, swaying
> from side to side. In Native North America the "Walking Eagle"-name
> is a running joke, a name that would be given to non-native
> politicians in fake "adoption" ceremonies. ...

Birds of prey (except vultures) are usually awkward when walking on the
ground because of their talons. It is a bit like a scuba diver on land
trying to walk in fins. Ask on http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/ .

Citlalyani.

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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Sun Oct 22 08:51:54 2006
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:51:54 +0200
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 23, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <200610211700.k9LH0V8u027623@www.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <SUN.22.OCT.2006.105154.0200.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

In Hueyapan nawatl there is a a word for walking with open legs like a
vulture: "tlakahkaloa"
Magnus

On 21/10/06, nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org <
nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:
>
> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
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>
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: pronoun walking eagle (Henry Kammler)
>    2. Re: pronoun walking eagle (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Henry Kammler <h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:30:49 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pronoun walking eagle
> I think Cuauhtemoc rather means "descended in eagle fashion, like an
> eagle", so Cuauhnenemi would be "walks like an eagle".
>
> For "Walking Eagle" I would vaguely guess Nenemilizcuauhtli.
>
> I don't know if a historical example can be found for this as a
> personal name. In case this name should be used for someone or
> something (like a company), think about it twice. An eagle that walks
> doesn't look majestic at all, lumping, swaying from side to side. In
> Native North America the "Walking Eagle"-name is a runnig joke, a name
> that would be given to nonnative politicians in fake "adoption"
> ceremonies. It boils down to ... why can't the eagle fly? ... various
> possible answers ...
>
> Just my 2 cents on this aspect.
>
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: ANTHONY APPLEYARD <a.appleyard at btinternet.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:26:16 +0100 (BST)
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pronoun walking eagle
> --- Henry Kammler <h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:
> >... For "Walking Eagle" I would vaguely guess Nenemilizcuauhtli.
> > ...An eagle that walks doesn't look majestic at all, lumping, swaying
> > from side to side. In Native North America the "Walking Eagle"-name
> > is a running joke, a name that would be given to non-native
> > politicians in fake "adoption" ceremonies. ...
>
> Birds of prey (except vultures) are usually awkward when walking on the
> ground because of their talons. It is a bit like a scuba diver on land
> trying to walk in fins. Ask on http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/ .
>
> Citlalyani.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
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From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Sun Oct 22 22:01:08 2006
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:01:08 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 23, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <e03a2ea10610220151o468f88ceud81b4453faaf4a87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.22.OCT.2006.150108.0700.MMONTCHA@OREGONVOS.NET>

Help!  Your robot program is not forwarding all of the Nahuatl
activity to my email address, even though I am subscribed to it,
and would like to see it.  Although I do not speak much Spanish,
I guess I can tolerate posts that come along in that language, too.

So, can you please check your robot to see if the activity
generated through Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org is being properly
passed along to me at my account: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net?

I am not filtering anything out on my side.

I think that your robot is filtering things out, and erroneously
stripping out messages that ought to be passed on to me.

Say, is there any way that I can review older message activity in
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org?  (If I have to, I could attempt to boot up
a webbrowser to go there.  I usually get my email through Pine,
a mailreading program that DialOregon.net provides me for use with
my DOS based term program from the 1980s.)

   Matthew Montchalin
   9870 SE City View Dr
   Portland,  OR  97266-6905

   email address:  mmontcha at OregonVOS.net
   voice line:     503-771-3307
   fax line:       503-771-2305

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From villas at anawak.com  Tue Oct 24 14:39:13 2006
From: villas at anawak.com (villas)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:39:13 -0400
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <20061020085830.8cft0r0rw4ookso8@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.OCT.2006.103913.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

Thanks to all, this is very helpful.

My curiosity came from a logo that was used by a truck manufacturing 
company in Mexico, DINA. The logo was a walking eagle putting its left 
claw forward. Too bad it dissapeared as it was rather beautiful, it was 
replaced by some abstract corporate logo.



Marcos






On Oct 20, 2006, at 8:58 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote:

> Interesting question.
>
> We can probably *safely* reconstruct this name based on the Nahuatl 
> verb
>
> <coyonehnemi> literally 'he/she/it coyote-walks', which means 
> 'he/she/it walks on all fours', from <coyotl> 'coyote' + <nehnemi> 
> 'he/she/it walks'.
>
> Based on this grammatical and attested term, the reconstruction you're 
> asking for would be <cuauhnehnemi> 'he/she/it walks like an eagle'.
>
> Note that you have to lop off the nominalizing suffix -tl/-tli/-li 
> before you can attach the noun to other terms.
>
> Another way you could safely approach this name would be
>
> <Cuauhtli Nehnemi> '(the/an) Eagle Walks'.
>
> Michael
>
> Quoting villas <villas at anawak.com>:
>
>> What is the noun in nahuatl for Walking Eagle?
>>  My options are so far
>>
>> Nenemicuauhtli
>>
>> Cuautlinenemi
>>
>> which one if any is correct or other suggestions.
>>
>> Marcos
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
>

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From villas at anawak.com  Tue Oct 24 14:47:03 2006
From: villas at anawak.com (villas)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:47:03 -0400
Subject: pronoun walking eagle
In-Reply-To: <20061020233049.o93p5ak0tcg04sc0@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.OCT.2006.104703.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

I can see there is a significant simbolic difference between walks like 
an eagle and walking eagle. The first implies an out of place and 
akward walk, but the secong might imply a person who has gained 
comparison to an eagle. Subtle but important in a name.

Marcos


On Oct 20, 2006, at 5:30 PM, Henry Kammler wrote:

> I think Cuauhtemoc rather means "descended in eagle fashion, like an 
> eagle", so Cuauhnenemi would be "walks like an eagle".
>
> For "Walking Eagle" I would vaguely guess Nenemilizcuauhtli.
>
> I don't know if a historical example can be found for this as a 
> personal name. In case this name should be used for someone or 
> something (like a company), think about it twice. An eagle that walks 
> doesn't look majestic at all, lumping, swaying from side to side. In 
> Native North America the "Walking Eagle"-name is a runnig joke, a name 
> that would be given to nonnative politicians in fake "adoption" 
> ceremonies. It boils down to ... why can't the eagle fly? ... various 
> possible answers ...
>
> Just my 2 cents on this aspect.
>
> Henry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>

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From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Thu Oct 26 22:36:53 2006
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:36:53 -0700
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <20061020081356.85621.qmail@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.26.OCT.2006.153653.0700.MMONTCHA@OREGONVOS.NET>

Is nepatia one of the reflexive forms of the verb patia, to cure
itself?

The other day I was going through the grocery store, and I was on
the right hand side of the aisle, checking out the shampoos and hair
conditioners.  On my left, however, coming up my way, there was a
woman with a baby in her cart, and another kid walking along beside
her, and as they were going past me, they were going past the place
where the aspirin, cold medicines and cough drops were.  The kid ran
up to the cold medicines and grabbed a box of Ludens Lemon Cough
Drops but the mom took it out of her hand and said, "Nepatia!" and
so, in a word, put it back on the shelf.

When I went home, I looked the word up in Karttunen's Dictionary,
and *think* she had told her kid that, in a single utterance, the
purchase was unnecessary because the problem would take care of
itself:  "it cures itself" - 3rd person singular indicative (active)
present, with the ne- prefix denoting the reflexive voice, more or
less. (I had spent a fair bit of time trying to figure out if it
were some kind of 1st person singular prefix, but eventually decided
against it.)

Did I translate it right?

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From idiez at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 02:39:19 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 21:39:19 -0500
Subject: Fwd: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
Message-ID: <THU.26.OCT.2006.213919.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

> Maybe what she said was "nel patiyoh", "It's really expensive".
> John
>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 5:36 PM, Matthew Montchalin wrote:
>
>> Is nepatia one of the reflexive forms of the verb patia, to cure
>> itself?
>>
>> The other day I was going through the grocery store, and I was on
>> the right hand side of the aisle, checking out the shampoos and hair
>> conditioners.  On my left, however, coming up my way, there was a
>> woman with a baby in her cart, and another kid walking along beside
>> her, and as they were going past me, they were going past the place
>> where the aspirin, cold medicines and cough drops were.  The kid ran
>> up to the cold medicines and grabbed a box of Ludens Lemon Cough
>> Drops but the mom took it out of her hand and said, "Nepatia!" and
>> so, in a word, put it back on the shelf.
>>
>> When I went home, I looked the word up in Karttunen's Dictionary,
>> and *think* she had told her kid that, in a single utterance, the
>> purchase was unnecessary because the problem would take care of
>> itself:  "it cures itself" - 3rd person singular indicative (active)
>> present, with the ne- prefix denoting the reflexive voice, more or
>> less. (I had spent a fair bit of time trying to figure out if it
>> were some kind of 1st person singular prefix, but eventually decided
>> against it.)
>>
>> Did I translate it right?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>

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From idiez at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 03:04:41 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:04:41 -0500
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <FFACD1C2-764C-4485-8C42-C60021920F98@mac.com>
Message-ID: <THU.26.OCT.2006.220441.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

It also could have been "cheneh patiyoh", "way too expensive". And  
maybe you just heard the last syllable of "cheneh".
John

On Oct 26, 2006, at 9:39 PM, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote:

>> Maybe what she said was "nel patiyoh", "It's really expensive".
>> John
>>
>> On Oct 26, 2006, at 5:36 PM, Matthew Montchalin wrote:
>>
>>> Is nepatia one of the reflexive forms of the verb patia, to cure
>>> itself?
>>>
>>> The other day I was going through the grocery store, and I was on
>>> the right hand side of the aisle, checking out the shampoos and hair
>>> conditioners.  On my left, however, coming up my way, there was a
>>> woman with a baby in her cart, and another kid walking along beside
>>> her, and as they were going past me, they were going past the place
>>> where the aspirin, cold medicines and cough drops were.  The kid ran
>>> up to the cold medicines and grabbed a box of Ludens Lemon Cough
>>> Drops but the mom took it out of her hand and said, "Nepatia!" and
>>> so, in a word, put it back on the shelf.
>>>
>>> When I went home, I looked the word up in Karttunen's Dictionary,
>>> and *think* she had told her kid that, in a single utterance, the
>>> purchase was unnecessary because the problem would take care of
>>> itself:  "it cures itself" - 3rd person singular indicative (active)
>>> present, with the ne- prefix denoting the reflexive voice, more or
>>> less. (I had spent a fair bit of time trying to figure out if it
>>> were some kind of 1st person singular prefix, but eventually decided
>>> against it.)
>>>
>>> Did I translate it right?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Oct 27 04:36:14 2006
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:36:14 -0400
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <E5360B5C-B986-4317-BDC8-59759EB2FC1D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.003614.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

    To add to John's suggestions for alternatives to what she may have 
said, there is a morphological reason for not believing that she said
"nepahtia", 'it cures itself'.  The reflexive prefix for finite verbs is 
not "ne-", but "mo-", so 'it is cured' is "mopahtia".  "ne-" is a 
non-specific reflexive prefix and appears only on *derived* forms of 
verbs (or impersonal forms).

    Examples:

   derivation         meaning           base verb

   nehtolli           vow               ihtoa

   nezahualiztli      fast (act of)     zahua

   necuepaliztli      return (act of)   cuepa

   nealtilo           there is bathing  altia

   nealtiayan         bathing place     altia

   nezomalli          anger             zoma

    I have a more basic problem with the situation that Matthew described.
What would lead us to believe that the woman was speaking Nahuatl?  Could 
it have been one of the other approximately 55 indigenous languages of 
Mexico?  Or a language from Central America or someplace else in the 
world?

    Further, bearing witness to a language event can be dangerous, more so 
in a language not our own, and certainly outside of a situation where we 
can say, "mande?", "come again?", "I'm sorry?" (as some people now say), 
etc.

    One of my own iconic language listening experiences happened about 
forty years ago when I had no doubts about the accuracy of my hearing.
I came out of my house on a winter morning carrying a heavy 
university-owned tape recorder.  When I took my third step down an icy 
sidewalk, I fell flat on my back, probably cushioning my fall by pushing 
the tape recorder down, so that it received the first impact.
    Later that day, I was walking down a hallway filled with the burble of 
students walking by and I narrated the event to an older colleague with 
whom I had a polite relationship.  He replied, "Well, that says something 
about your ability with the taperecorder!"   ...I was stunned that he 
would speak to me with that kind of irony, even rising to sarcasm...
No, he wouldn't say that to me...  If not, what did he say?  I played it 
back in my head over and over.  By the time we had walked about three 
classrooms down the hall, I heard it differently and realized that now I 
had it right...  He had said, "Well, that says something about the 
durability of the tape recorder."

    We just don't hear segment by segment, syllable by syllable, with
total accuracy.

Iztayohmeh

Joe




On Thu, 26 Oct 2006, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote:

> It also could have been "cheneh patiyoh", "way too expensive". And maybe you 
> just heard the last syllable of "cheneh".
> John
>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 9:39 PM, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote:
>
>>> Maybe what she said was "nel patiyoh", "It's really expensive".
>>> John
>>>
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From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com  Fri Oct 27 09:39:30 2006
From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:39:30 -0700
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.023930.0700.GILCHRIST.SUSAN@GMAIL.COM>

Dear listeros,
I'm looking at what seem to be three examples of the same thing, where
breaking a long word into some short words seems to result in a mnemonic for
learning new words, but it can turn into a "false etymology" and/or an
insult:

Chichimeca = dog (chichi) + rope (mecatl)
Dominicanes = God (Domini) + dogs (canes)
Manhattan = man + hat + tan

I found a long explanation online for "domini canes," which eventually
became the basis for the escudo of the Dominicans, but had nothing to do
with their being called Dominicans in the first place (from: "St. Dominic
and His Work, by Pierre Mandonnet, O.P., Translated by Sister Mary Benedicta
Larkin, O.P., B. Herder Book Co., St. Louis/London, 1948. Domini Canes by
Pierre Mandonnet, O.P.," online at
http://www.op.org/Domcentral/trad/domwork/domworka6.htm)
As far as I know there's no explanation for "man + hat + tan" unless it's
that it's an easy spelling to read in English and Dutch (maybe as man + hatt
+ an).
I've found sort of an explanation of chichi + mecatl but am not sure what to
think of it;

> "As the Spaniards and their Amerindian allies from the south made their
> way into Nueva Galicia early in the Sixteenth Century, they encountered
> large numbers of nomadic Chichimeca Indians. Philip Wayne Powell - whose
> Soldiers, Indians, and Silver: North America's First Frontier War is the
> definitive source of information relating to the Chichimeca Indians -
> referred to Chichimeca as "an all-inclusive epithet" that had "a spiteful
> connotation." Utilizing the N?huatl terms for dog  (chichi) and rope
> (mecatl), the Aztecs referred to the Chichimecas literally as "of dog
> lineage." But some historians have explained that the word Chichimeca has
> been subject to various interpretations over the years, including "perros
> altaneros" (arrogant dogs), or "chupadores de sangre" (blood-suckers). The
> Spaniards borrowed this designation from their Aztec allies and started to
> refer to the large stretch Chichimeca territory as La Gran Chichimeca (the
> Great Chichimeca)." ?from  THE DIVERSITY OF INDIGENOUS MEXICO By John P.
> Schmal (http://www.somosprimos.com/spmar02.htm)
>

The reason I'm curious about it is that it seems as though a picture of a
dog attacking a person might relate to "dog + rope." The odd thing about the
picture is that the artist didn't make it clear whether the rope was
attached to the person or to the dog, maybe indicating it wasn't an
eyewitness report by the artist. This is the picture:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg
I wonder whether the horrible attack dog and the mild-mannered coyote might
have to do with the Chichimecas and the Dominicans respectively, since
Bartholome de las Casas was a Dominican. In other words it's a reminder that
Las Casas was horrified by such crimes. (In Christian art dogs are sometimes
very positive and sometimes very negative.) But maybe the dog and rope in
the picture have nothing to do with Chichimecas. My question is whether it
seems as though this picture has to do with bilingual picture writing, where
both a Nahuatl and a Latin word are broken down into short words. In other
words it seems as though the same method of language teaching might be
working in both directions. But on the other hand, is a Chichimeca word
being distorted in order to translate it into Nahuatl and then into Spanish?

Susan Gilchrist
http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/
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From idiez at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 12:10:08 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:10:08 -0500
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610262359570.24340-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.071008.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

In some variants the word-final glottal stop is not a stop at all. In  
the Huasteca, for example, a word-final vowel actually ends in a  
stop, whereas a word-final "glottal stop" just removes the stop from  
the preceeding vowel. This results in an open-ended pronunciation of  
that final vowel with a barely audible non-occluded aspiration. So,  
after taking into account what Joe said, if you did here "cheneh" or  
"patiyoh" you might not have noticed that final "h".
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
M?xico
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx
?


On Oct 27, 2006, at 2:02 AM, Matthew Montchalin wrote:

> | Maybe what she said was "nel patiyoh", "It's really expensive".
>
> That makes plenty of sentence!  I'll try to commit that one to
> memory.  But are you using the letter 'h' to denote the glottal
> stop?  Still, I don't really think she was using a glottal stop
> that I could hear.
>
>







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From b.leeming at rivers.org  Fri Oct 27 12:34:42 2006
From: b.leeming at rivers.org (b.leeming at rivers.org)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:34:42 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl scholarship
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.083442.0400.>

Listeros,

I posted an inquiry to the list back in July asking for information on who
is currently doing scholarship on the corpus of 16th-18th century
Nahuatl-language documents that is the focus of much of Lockhart?s work.
While I received a few responses (Schwaller, Wood, Gilchrist ? thank you!),
my hunch is that there may be more of you actively reading posts now that
the academic year is in full swing and so I would like to pose part of my
original query again.

In particular, it is the second part of my question (which was not
responded to) that I would like to resubmit.  I wrote:

?As a soon-to-be doctoral student who is hoping to focus his research on
Nahuatl documents such as these, I am interested in determining what are
the persistent problems, questions and unexplored avenues that remain.  Or,
put another way, where would you advise a would-be scholar who wants to
work with Nahuatl source material turn his attention??

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Ben Leeming
The Rivers School
Weston, MA

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From idiez at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 12:49:49 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:49:49 -0500
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
In-Reply-To: <3b19afc80610270239y1e0a2c51n4ce2afc7266c7e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.074949.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

Susan,
	"Chichimeca" doesn't come from "dog" and "rope". "chichimecah" is a  
plural noun meaning "inhabitants of (the altepetl/town) Chichiman". A  
singular inhabitant would be "chichimecatl". The name of the town  
itself can be divided into "-man", an ending for names of towns in  
Nahuatl, and "chichi". There is a "chichi" meaning "dog" which has  
two short "i"s (Nahuatl distinguishes between short and long vowels),  
but the "chichi" in "chichimecatl" has two long "i"s, so it can't  
mean "dog". The "chichi" with long "i"s is a shortened form of the  
root for the Nahuatl words meaning "breast" and "milk".

The analysis of town names in Nahuatl is usually not that difficult.  
On the one hand, there is a fixed set of endings, of which "-man" is  
an option. On the other hand, you need to find out what the beginning  
portion, in this case "chichi", of the town name means. It has been  
my experience that the great majority of these town names are related  
to themes of Mesoamerican sacred landscape. So if you are trying to  
translated one of these names and your options include something  
having to do with landscape components of the migration (Aztl?n,  
Chicomoztoc and Colhuahcan), go with that option. There is a very  
beautiful representation (in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca?) of the  
infant Nahua clan founders suckling from a gourd tree. This, along  
with the morphological analysis of the town names, is the kind of  
evidence you would want to look for in order to translate  
"chichimecah" and "chichiman".
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
M?xico
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx
?


On Oct 27, 2006, at 4:39 AM, Susan Gilchrist wrote:

> Dear listeros,
> I'm looking at what seem to be three examples of the same thing,  
> where breaking a long word into some short words seems to result in  
> a mnemonic for learning new words, but it can turn into a "false  
> etymology" and/or an insult:
>
> Chichimeca = dog (chichi) + rope (mecatl)
> Dominicanes = God (Domini) + dogs (canes)
> Manhattan = man + hat + tan
>
> I found a long explanation online for "domini canes," which  
> eventually became the basis for the escudo of the Dominicans, but  
> had nothing to do with their being called Dominicans in the first  
> place (from: "St. Dominic and His Work, by Pierre Mandonnet, O.P.,  
> Translated by Sister Mary Benedicta Larkin, O.P., B. Herder Book  
> Co., St. Louis/London, 1948. Domini Canes by Pierre Mandonnet,  
> O.P.," online at http://www.op.org/Domcentral/trad/domwork/ 
> domworka6.htm )
> As far as I know there's no explanation for "man + hat + tan"  
> unless it's that it's an easy spelling to read in English and Dutch  
> (maybe as man + hatt + an).
> I've found sort of an explanation of chichi + mecatl but am not  
> sure what to think of it;
> "As the Spaniards and their Amerindian allies from the south made  
> their way into Nueva Galicia early in the Sixteenth Century, they  
> encountered large numbers of nomadic Chichimeca Indians. Philip  
> Wayne Powell - whose  Soldiers, Indians, and Silver: North  
> America's First Frontier War is the definitive source of  
> information relating to the Chichimeca Indians - referred to  
> Chichimeca as "an all-inclusive epithet" that had "a spiteful  
> connotation." Utilizing the N?huatl terms for dog  (chichi) and  
> rope (mecatl), the Aztecs referred to the Chichimecas literally as  
> "of dog lineage." But some historians have explained that the word  
> Chichimeca has been subject to various interpretations over the  
> years, including "perros altaneros" (arrogant dogs), or "chupadores  
> de sangre" (blood-suckers). The Spaniards borrowed this designation  
> from their Aztec allies and started to refer to the large stretch  
> Chichimeca territory as La Gran Chichimeca (the Great  
> Chichimeca)." ?from  THE DIVERSITY OF INDIGENOUS MEXICO By John P.  
> Schmal ( http://www.somosprimos.com/spmar02.htm)
>
> The reason I'm curious about it is that it seems as though a  
> picture of a dog attacking a person might relate to "dog + rope."  
> The odd thing about the picture is that the artist didn't make it  
> clear whether the rope was attached to the person or to the dog,  
> maybe indicating it wasn't an eyewitness report by the artist. This  
> is the picture: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/ 
> b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg
> I wonder whether the horrible attack dog and the mild-mannered  
> coyote might have to do with the Chichimecas and the Dominicans  
> respectively, since Bartholome de las Casas was a Dominican. In  
> other words it's a reminder that Las Casas was horrified by such  
> crimes. (In Christian art dogs are sometimes very positive and  
> sometimes very negative.) But maybe the dog and rope in the picture  
> have nothing to do with Chichimecas. My question is whether it  
> seems as though this picture has to do with bilingual picture  
> writing, where both a Nahuatl and a Latin word are broken down into  
> short words. In other words it seems as though the same method of  
> language teaching might be working in both directions. But on the  
> other hand, is a Chichimeca word being distorted in order to  
> translate it into Nahuatl and then into Spanish?
> Susan Gilchrist
> http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl






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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Oct 27 13:02:47 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:02:47 -0400
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.090247.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

At 05:39 AM 10/27/2006, you wrote:
>In other words it seems as though the same method of language 
>teaching might be working in both directions. But on the other hand, 
>is a Chichimeca word being distorted in order to translate it into 
>Nahuatl and then into Spanish?
>Susan Gilchrist

Chichi is a curious Nahuatl word to begin with, since it does not 
exist in the classic singular absolutive form.  That is there is no 
word "chichitl"  It only exists as "chichi"  This has led some 
scholars to assume that it was a word borrowed from some other 
language.  There are two other Nahuatl words that on the surface are 
similar.  The verb to suckle "chi:chi:-" written with two long 
vowels, and the word for saliva "chihchitl", and lastly to another 
verb "chihchi-" to mend or patch something.

I would guess that this is an instance of a false etymology.  If it 
were done by a Dominican, it might well be influenced by the verbal 
pun that is used in iconography of the "dog of God."



John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From arnibionic at yahoo.de  Fri Oct 27 13:10:08 2006
From: arnibionic at yahoo.de (=?iso-8859-1?q?Arnd=20S=F6lling?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:10:08 +0200
Subject: Etymology of Chichimeca
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.151008.0200.ARNIBIONIC@YAHOO.DE>

Dear Listeros,

Im also curious about the etymology of the expression cichimeca.
I always thought that it was made up by the plural of the chichi `dogs?, so chichime, as people might have called the `savages? from the north, and than later, -ca(tl) (being) was attached in order to express a meaning like dog(s)-like person ( I am aware that by normal nahuatl rules the composition should be chichicame. maybe some kind of metathesis operated here?).
Well, just wanted to through my ideas in,

Greetings,
Arnd S?lling

 		
---------------------------------
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From pgarcia at indiana.edu  Fri Oct 27 13:27:21 2006
From: pgarcia at indiana.edu (Pablo Garcia)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:27:21 -0400
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
In-Reply-To: <3b19afc80610270239y1e0a2c51n4ce2afc7266c7e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.092721.0400.PGARCIA@INDIANA.EDU>

Listeros,


Don Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl goes on about the chichimeca, from 
which he could claim descent through his great-great-great grandfather, 
Nezahualcoyotl. In the _Historia de la nacion chichimeca_ he says that 
the term chichimeca does not mean, as some think, the "mamones" but the 
eagles and that the word is not Nahuatl.
On the other hand, he traces the chichimeca nation back to the Gran 
Chichimeca Xolotl, whose name-glyph in the Codice Xolotl is a dog head 
-- and apparently the god Xolotl, a messenger, was often represented as 
a dog. So, perhaps, Chichimeca, does relate to the dog lineage --the 
line of Xolotl-- but not necessarily in disparaging terms. At least not 
originally, and certainly not in don Fernando's view ---he may or may 
not be right about the etymology of the word, but there is no doubt 
about his views about the chichimeca people.


Saludos,
Pablo

Pablo Garc?a
Assistant Professor
Modern Languages & Literatures
Saint Anselm College
Manchester, NH 03102
PGarcia at Anselm.Edu


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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Fri Oct 27 13:40:57 2006
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:40:57 +0100
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
In-Reply-To: <20061027092721.qo1o9owlus8skoo8@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.144057.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- Pablo Garcia <pgarcia at indiana.edu> wrote:
> ... So, perhaps, Chichimeca, does relate to the dog lineage --the 
> line of Xolotl-- but not necessarily in disparaging terms. ...

If a dog is thought of guarding the household against wolves etc, the
people may well be thankful of it. Compare the old Irish hero
Cuchullain, whose name means "the hound of Cullan" 9see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuchullain ).

Citlalyani.

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Oct 27 13:59:18 2006
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:59:18 -0400
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
In-Reply-To: <20061027134057.48804.qmail@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.095918.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

I couldn't tell from the original message if the person was asking for 
an etymology of Manhattan, or what.  But, right, it's not Nahuatl. >>:-)

Fran has more experience with Eastern Algonquian than I do, but 
"Manhattan," which would be from Munsee, seems to combine the terms for 
'island' (Manha-) and 'hill' (-attan). In a distant cousin language I 
know, Miami-Illinois, the first term is /minahanw-/ and the second 
/atenw-/. I find the double -tt- curious, though. Such doubling of 
consonants by European records often points to a long vowel in the 
vicinity or to a preaspirated consonant.

Michael

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Oct 27 14:25:36 2006
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:25:36 -0400
Subject: Placename: Chalco
In-Reply-To: <E9742D5D-527B-4569-BE59-D6D7D97FED37@mac.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.102536.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

    Encouraged by the discussion of "chichimeca", I am wondering if I could 
get some help on "Chalco".  I'd like to resolve it in relation to words 
like:

    chalcatl          person from Chalco
    chalcatlatoque    Chalcan rulers
    mochalcanenequi   he pretends to be a Chalcan
    mochalcachichiuh  he adorned himself as a Chalcan
    chalcayotl        stuff relating to Chalco

Tlazohcamatitzin,

Joe

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From mwswanton at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 27 14:59:09 2006
From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:59:09 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl scholarship
In-Reply-To: <OF54712127.5AC2A052-ON85257214.0045188A-85257214.004518A0@rivers.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.075909.0700.MWSWANTON@YAHOO.COM>

Lockhart?s "New Philology" clearly represents an
enduring contribution to understanding indigenous
culture during Spanish colonial rule. It has
contributed significantly to the view that cultural
change during that time was not the simple
displacement of indigenous culture, but rather
functioned through already existing indigenous
mechanisms and ways of understanding. It is a
extremely important historical school. There are many
consequences to their work, which provides an
important base for all future investigation. I?m a big
fan of New Philology.

I believe however that it can, and should, be
expanded. The following suggestions come to mind:
1. The selection of sources. Most of the major sources
used by the new philologists are located in national
or foreign archives and libraries. Very little work
has been carried out in more local archives, I suspect
because of their poor organization and difficult
access. The mayordom?a archives are practically
untouched. A worthwhile project you might consider is
the organization of a local archive. Not only might
that provide a solid case study, the basis for which
major synthetic studies are built, but it will
contribute to the preservation of the Nahuas
historical patrimony.

2. Interdisciplinary study. In their method, the new
philologists? study ends where the text ends. The
contextualization of the Nahua ancestral documents
reaches little beyond the texts themselves. It is
uncommon that data from archaeology, cultural
geography, linguistics, contemporary social structure,
historical architecture, etc. are ever brought to bear
on issues raised in the texts under examination. Thus,
in his major synthetic study, Lockhart dedicates a
whole section to the architectural layout of colonial
households, yet never considers the mass of
archaeological data that directly relates to this
issue. Such data can potentially enrich the reading
and interpretation of the texts considerably, but its
use would involve transgressing disciplinary
boundaries and leaving the domain of traditional,
document-based history. Mesoamerica is a rewarding
area for interdisciplinary study. 

3. The study of post-Independent Mexico Nahuas. New
Philology invariably studies texts that are temporally
limited to the centuries of Spanish colonial rule.
Writing in indigenous languages continued after the
colony, and, though considerably different in its
content and audience, this too reflects social
realities of Indigenous Mexico. Moreover, in Mexico
and Guatemala today, many Native Americans continue to
produce texts, both written and oral, in their
languages. While recognizing continuity in indigenous
ways of understanding during the dramatic changes from
the precolonial to colonial periods, New Philology has
not incorporated indigenous cultural continuity after
1821 into their investigations. The great Hellenist
Milman Parry, significantly changed how we understand
the classical Greek texts by studying early 20th
century oral literature in Yugoslavia. I am convinced
the study of modern oral literature, speech genres and
rhetorical devises would shed much light on the older
texts. In general, it has been my experience that
trying to understand the present day realities of
indigenous life will help inspire and ground your work
in new and unexpected ways.

Saludos,
Michael Swanton


--- b.leeming at rivers.org wrote:

> 
> Listeros,
> 
> I posted an inquiry to the list back in July asking
> for information on who
> is currently doing scholarship on the corpus of
> 16th-18th century
> Nahuatl-language documents that is the focus of much
> of Lockhart???s work.
> While I received a few responses (Schwaller, Wood,
> Gilchrist ??? thank you!),
> my hunch is that there may be more of you actively
> reading posts now that
> the academic year is in full swing and so I would
> like to pose part of my
> original query again.
> 
> In particular, it is the second part of my question
> (which was not
> responded to) that I would like to resubmit.  I
> wrote:
> 
> ???As a soon-to-be doctoral student who is hoping to
> focus his research on
> Nahuatl documents such as these, I am interested in
> determining what are
> the persistent problems, questions and unexplored
> avenues that remain.  Or,
> put another way, where would you advise a would-be
> scholar who wants to
> work with Nahuatl source material turn his
> attention????
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> Ben Leeming
> The Rivers School
> Weston, MA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 


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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Oct 27 15:39:18 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:39:18 -0400
Subject: chichimeca (false etymology/mnemonic/rude joke)
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.113918.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

I didn't do all my home work when I first posted and inadvertently 
reaffirmed a false assumption.  Going back to Karttunen's Dictionary, 
I now see that the word "chichimeca" has long vowels, I hadn't 
realized.  In fact the word is : chi:chi:me:catl  She goes on to note 
that as a result of the vowel length the word is NOT related to words 
for dog, rags, or bitter.  "It is possibly derivationally related to 
chi:chi:- 'to suckle.'"

So in fact the word is NOT derived from dog, but from something else, 
possibly "to suckle."



John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From idiez at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 17:08:06 2006
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:08:06 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl scholarship
In-Reply-To: <20061027145909.92724.qmail@web31707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.120806.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

Michael,
          A few months ago there was a discussion about how people on  
the list got into Nahuatl. I have been putting off making my  
contribution, but your mail on the ?New Philology? has given me  
good excuse to do it now. Let me start off by saying that I consider  
myself within that tradition.
          While doing my MA in Spanish at USC, I took a course in  
Latin American Colonial Literature with Mabel Mora?a, and read  
?Visi?n de los vencidos? by Miguel Le?n Portilla. After asking  
myself why I couldn?t read the texts in the original language, I  
searched around LA for someplace to study Nahuatl. I took two  
semesters of Classical Nahuatl with William Bright at UCLA, using  
Andrew?s text and workbook, which accompany me, rebound, to this  
day. At the same time I approached Jim Lockhart who, although I  
wasn?t a student of his, generously (a characteristic that  
distinguishes him) invited me to participate in the informal study  
group he held at his home. So for the next two years, twice a month,  
I sat at Jim?s kitchen table with other grad students, read and  
commented Carochi, and parsed, analyzed and translated mundane  
Nahuatl documents. Using the expression that Joe and others have  
used, I was hooked immediately. I think there are two things that  
were involved in the start of this love affair. First, Nahuatl  
grammar is a beautifull piece of machinery: everything is systematic  
and easily understandable (the only exceptions I can think of are the  
Classical plural noun endings, and the passive/applicative/causative  
verb radicals). Second, reading mundane documents lets you sit down  
with an indian who lived 300 hundred years ago and listen to his or  
her comments written in Nahuatl on daily life and interactions with  
Spaniards. It?s fascinating. And I think this an aspect of New  
Philology that has integrated itself into the work I do with native  
speakers. More on this in a moment.
          USC wouldn?t let me use Nahuatl to satisfy my second  
language requirement. They said I needed to study a real language, so  
I took two semesters of Latin, and then forgot it. I went on to do my  
Ph.D. in Literature at UCSD. My dissertation, "Procesos de sujeci?n  
colonial en el municipio tlaxcalteca del siglo XVI y la respuesta  
ind?gena," was basically a discourse analysis of the Nahuatl text of  
Las Actas de Tlaxcala.
          I returned to Zacatecas in 1993 with my family (my wife and  
I met while I was studying to be an elementary school teacher at the  
Escuela Normal ?Manuel Avila Camacho? in Zacatecas, 1977-1981),  
and began to work in the Facultad de Humanidades at the Universidad  
Aut?noma de Zacatecas, teaching classes in Hispanic Literature,  
Classical Nahuatl, and finishing my dissertation.
          During that time I became aware that there were many native  
speakers of Nahuatl studying as undergraduates at the university. I  
immediately began to work daily with two of them, Urbano Francisco  
Mart?nez and Delfina de la Cruz de la Cruz. As I began to learn  
conversational Nahuatl, I immediately became aware of the fact that  
Classical Nahuatl and the Modern Nahuatl of the Huasteca were simply  
two variants of a single system: in other words, one set of rules  
explains all. In fact, over the years, I have come to the conclusion  
that if you study either one in isolation, it?s like trying to read  
a book with some of the pages torn out.
          Together Urbano, Delfina and I have developed a series of  
courses in Older and Modern Nahuatl which we teach at the UAZ, both  
during the school year and during the Summer. We also founding two  
non-profit institutes, one in Mexico (Instituto de Docencia e  
Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas) and one in the US (Macehualli  
Educational Research) for the purpose of funding our teaching and  
research projects.
          Currently we have about 10 indigenous college students on  
scholarship working with us in the preparation of a monolingual  
dictionary and a monolingual grammar of Modern Huastecan Nahuatl  
(using ?Classical? spelling and word entry conventions). I have  
also recently started working with two students who are native  
speakers of wixarika (huichol), and sometime in the future we will  
offer courses and do research projects in this area. I also work  
currently with mundane Nahuatl documents from Colonial Western Mexico.
          We work on a series of principles:
1. The relationship between Older and Modern Nahuatl (or any  
indigenous) language and culture is one of continuity, not of  
rupture. One can not be understood in isolation from the other.
2. Indigenous students need to study older and modern aspects of  
their language and culture; and they need to review, comment on, and  
participate in (not as passive informants, but as research  
assistants) the Western production of knowledge concerning  
Mesoamerica. They need to be authors of their own projects in this area.
3. Bilingualism is a good thing; the lack of monolingual academic  
(especially reference) materials for native speakers is not.  
Institutions of higher education all over the world) need to realize  
that general education courses in ethnic studies offered in the  
dominant language are of zero value if they are not accompanied by  
courses in indigenous languages taught in person by native speakers.
4. Mexican institutions of higher education need to transform  
themselves from deculturalization machines into spaces where  
indigenous students can study a career in Spanish, and at the same  
time become educated in their native language and culture,  
contributing actively to its revitalization and the extension of its  
use in urban society. However, since in general, Mexico and its  
educational institutions have neither the interest nor the resources  
for developing this, partnerships with ?1st world? institutions  
will be indispensable. But they will be indispensable for both sides.
          As I said at the beginning, I consider myself within the  
New Philology. I also consider that the future of this school, as  
well as the future of indigenous studies in general will look  
something like what we are doing here in Zacatecas.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
M?xico
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx
www.macehualli.org
?


On Oct 27, 2006, at 9:59 AM, Michael Swanton wrote:

>
> Lockhart?s "New Philology" clearly represents an
> enduring contribution to understanding indigenous
> culture during Spanish colonial rule. It has
> contributed significantly to the view that cultural
> change during that time was not the simple
> displacement of indigenous culture, but rather
> functioned through already existing indigenous
> mechanisms and ways of understanding. It is a
> extremely important historical school. There are many
> consequences to their work, which provides an
> important base for all future investigation. I?m a big
> fan of New Philology.
>
> I believe however that it can, and should, be
> expanded. The following suggestions come to mind:
> 1. The selection of sources. Most of the major sources
> used by the new philologists are located in national
> or foreign archives and libraries. Very little work
> has been carried out in more local archives, I suspect
> because of their poor organization and difficult
> access. The mayordom?a archives are practically
> untouched. A worthwhile project you might consider is
> the organization of a local archive. Not only might
> that provide a solid case study, the basis for which
> major synthetic studies are built, but it will
> contribute to the preservation of the Nahuas
> historical patrimony.
>
> 2. Interdisciplinary study. In their method, the new
> philologists? study ends where the text ends. The
> contextualization of the Nahua ancestral documents
> reaches little beyond the texts themselves. It is
> uncommon that data from archaeology, cultural
> geography, linguistics, contemporary social structure,
> historical architecture, etc. are ever brought to bear
> on issues raised in the texts under examination. Thus,
> in his major synthetic study, Lockhart dedicates a
> whole section to the architectural layout of colonial
> households, yet never considers the mass of
> archaeological data that directly relates to this
> issue. Such data can potentially enrich the reading
> and interpretation of the texts considerably, but its
> use would involve transgressing disciplinary
> boundaries and leaving the domain of traditional,
> document-based history. Mesoamerica is a rewarding
> area for interdisciplinary study.
>
> 3. The study of post-Independent Mexico Nahuas. New
> Philology invariably studies texts that are temporally
> limited to the centuries of Spanish colonial rule.
> Writing in indigenous languages continued after the
> colony, and, though considerably different in its
> content and audience, this too reflects social
> realities of Indigenous Mexico. Moreover, in Mexico
> and Guatemala today, many Native Americans continue to
> produce texts, both written and oral, in their
> languages. While recognizing continuity in indigenous
> ways of understanding during the dramatic changes from
> the precolonial to colonial periods, New Philology has
> not incorporated indigenous cultural continuity after
> 1821 into their investigations. The great Hellenist
> Milman Parry, significantly changed how we understand
> the classical Greek texts by studying early 20th
> century oral literature in Yugoslavia. I am convinced
> the study of modern oral literature, speech genres and
> rhetorical devises would shed much light on the older
> texts. In general, it has been my experience that
> trying to understand the present day realities of
> indigenous life will help inspire and ground your work
> in new and unexpected ways.
>
> Saludos,
> Michael Swanton
>
>
> --- b.leeming at rivers.org wrote:
>
>>
>> Listeros,
>>
>> I posted an inquiry to the list back in July asking
>> for information on who
>> is currently doing scholarship on the corpus of
>> 16th-18th century
>> Nahuatl-language documents that is the focus of much
>> of Lockhart???s work.
>> While I received a few responses (Schwaller, Wood,
>> Gilchrist ??? thank you!),
>> my hunch is that there may be more of you actively
>> reading posts now that
>> the academic year is in full swing and so I would
>> like to pose part of my
>> original query again.
>>
>> In particular, it is the second part of my question
>> (which was not
>> responded to) that I would like to resubmit.  I
>> wrote:
>>
>> ???As a soon-to-be doctoral student who is hoping to
>> focus his research on
>> Nahuatl documents such as these, I am interested in
>> determining what are
>> the persistent problems, questions and unexplored
>> avenues that remain.  Or,
>> put another way, where would you advise a would-be
>> scholar who wants to
>> work with Nahuatl source material turn his
>> attention????
>>
>> Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
>>
>> Ben Leeming
>> The Rivers School
>> Weston, MA
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl






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From Amapohuani at aol.com  Sat Oct 28 01:15:20 2006
From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:15:20 EDT
Subject: Nahuatl scholarship
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.211520.EDT.>

(JListeros:(B

(JI feel that Michael's comments are very thoughtful and I am glad that he has (B
(Jshared them with the list. (B

(J I speak only for myself but I especially like what I take to be his (B
(Jwell-expressed suggestions about aggressively reaching out and incorporating into all (B
(Jof our work whatever is useful and illuminating [and I mean that in both the (B
(Jsense of those doing the work and their audiences, the two not always being so (B
(Jdifferent]. I share that sentiment, only pointing out that individuals and (B
(Jeven small groups of collaborating scholars can only do so much. For example, (B
(JLouise Burkhart and I are going to end up spending twelve very arduous years (B
(Jputting out the four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set. And currently I am on a longterm (B
(Jfellowship at the Newberry Library in Chicago working on some remarkable, and (B
(Jbasically unknown, Carochi papers. I am going to work up a critical edition: (B
(Jand I conservatively estimate three more years on this project alone! I can (B
(Jimagine doing more, learning how to do more, and wish I could do more, but (B
(Junfortunately I am only human. So if new folks want to join in the work and bring (B
(Jnew perspectives and skill sets, IMHO, the more the merrier! (B

(JI would only add an observation. I remember when xeroxes of a few chapters of (B
(JJim's THE NAHUAS AFTER THE CONQUEST were sitting in boxes at UCLA circa 1990 (B
(Jto be read by his grad students. One of those students, Kevin Terraciano, has (B
(Jtaken Jim's place at UCLA, and Kevin's own survey of the Mixtecs is now the (B
(Jequivalent for that group of what Jim's is for early Nahuas. That people might (B
(Jnow find that Jim's THE NAHUAS is not the be-all and end-all [I never thought (B
(Jit was or was meant to be but appreciated it for helping speed the rest of us (B
(Jon our way] and that more work in many directions is necessary and feasible, I (B
(Jfind both fascinating and a bit funny. Whatever it is called, Early Latin (B
(JAmerican Studies, the New Philology [as opposed to the old and now-displaced (B
(Jone?], Ethnohistory, mainstream this or cutting-edge that, work on early Nahuatl (B
(Jtexts is very v ery far from being even modestly 'finished.' It is not an (B
(J'accomplished fact' sitting on the 'road of progress' getting in the way but, to my (B
(Jway of thinking, a constantly moving target -- note that Louise and I have (B
(Jeffectively made Jim's discussion of early Nahuatl theater very thin and dated, (B
(Jbut Jim's work is still very valuable in many respects even as people add it (B
(Jto, modify it, and even replace it. In fact, on a personal note I must say that (B
(JI do not think I will get to see much more than modest advances in my lifetime (B
(Jjust on the textual corpus alone, not to mention all the others directions (B
(Jand projects that Michael lists.   (B

(JAgain, I thank Michael for sharing his thoughts with us and wish him well in (B
(Jhis future endeavors. (B

(JYe ixquich.(B
(JBarry D. Sell(B

(JIn a message dated 10/27/06 8:00:26 AM, mwswanton at yahoo.com writes:(B


(J> (B
(J> Lockhart$B!G(Js "New Philology" clearly represents an(B
(J> enduring contribution to understanding indigenous(B
(J> culture during Spanish colonial rule. It has(B
(J> contributed significantly to the view that cultural(B
(J> change during that time was not the simple(B
(J> displacement of indigenous culture, but rather(B
(J> functioned through already existing indigenous(B
(J> mechanisms and ways of understanding. It is a(B
(J> extremely important historical school. There are many(B
(J> consequences to their work, which provides an(B
(J> important base for all future investigation. I$B!G(Jm a big(B
(J> fan of New Philology.(B
(J> (B
(J> I believe however that it can, and should, be(B
(J> expanded. The following suggestions come to mind:(B
(J> 1. The selection of sources. Most of the major sources(B
(J> used by the new philologists are located in national(B
(J> or foreign archives and libraries. Very little work(B
(J> has been carried out in more local archives, I suspect(B
(J> because of their poor organization and difficult(B
(J> access. The mayordom$(D+?(Ja archives are practically(B
(J> untouched. A worthwhile project you might consider is(B
(J> the organization of a local archive. Not only might(B
(J> that provide a solid case study, the basis for which(B
(J> major synthetic studies are built, but it will(B
(J> contribute to the preservation of the Nahuas(B
(J> historical patrimony.(B
(J> (B
(J> 2. Interdisciplinary study. In their method, the new(B
(J> philologists$B!G(J study ends where the text ends. The(B
(J> contextualization of the Nahua ancestral documents(B
(J> reaches little beyond the texts themselves. It is(B
(J> uncommon that data from archaeology, cultural(B
(J> geography, linguistics, contemporary social structure,(B
(J> historical architecture, etc. are ever brought to bear(B
(J> on issues raised in the texts under examination. Thus,(B
(J> in his major synthetic study, Lockhart dedicates a(B
(J> whole section to the architectural layout of colonial(B
(J> households, yet never considers the mass of(B
(J> archaeological data that directly relates to this(B
(J> issue. Such data can potentially enrich the reading(B
(J> and interpretation of the texts considerably, but its(B
(J> use would involve transgressing disciplinary(B
(J> boundaries and leaving the domain of traditional,(B
(J> document-based history. Mesoamerica is a rewarding(B
(J> area for interdisciplinary study.(B
(J> (B
(J> 3. The study of post-Independent Mexico Nahuas. New(B
(J> Philology invariably studies texts that are temporally(B
(J> limited to the centuries of Spanish colonial rule.(B
(J> Writing in indigenous languages continued after the(B
(J> colony, and, though considerably different in its(B
(J> content and audience, this too reflects social(B
(J> realities of Indigenous Mexico. Moreover, in Mexico(B
(J> and Guatemala today, many Native Americans continue to(B
(J> produce texts, both written and oral, in their(B
(J> languages. While recognizing continuity in indigenous(B
(J> ways of understanding during the dramatic changes from(B
(J> the precolonial to colonial periods, New Philology has(B
(J> not incorporated indigenous cultural continuity after(B
(J> 1821 into their investigations. The great Hellenist(B
(J> Milman Parry, significantly changed how we understand(B
(J> the classical Greek texts by studying early 20th(B
(J> century oral literature in Yugoslavia. I am convinced(B
(J> the study of modern oral literature, speech genres and(B
(J> rhetorical devises would shed much light on the older(B
(J> texts. In general, it has been my experience that(B
(J> trying to understand the present day realities of(B
(J> indigenous life will help inspire and ground your work(B
(J> in new and unexpected ways.(B
(J> (B
(J> Saludos,(B
(J> Michael Swanton(B
(J> (B
(J> (B
(J> --- b.leeming at rivers.org wrote:(B
(J> (B
(J> >(B
(J> > Listeros,(B
(J> >(B
(J> > I posted an inquiry to the list back in July asking(B
(J> > for information on who(B
(J> > is currently doing scholarship on the corpus of(B
(J> > 16th-18th century(B
(J> > Nahuatl-language documents that is the focus of much(B
(J> > of Lockhart$(D+$"o(Js work.(B
(J> > While I received a few responses (Schwaller, Wood,(B
(J> > Gilchrist $(D+$$B!H(J thank you!),(B
(J> > my hunch is that there may be more of you actively(B
(J> > reading posts now that(B
(J> > the academic year is in full swing and so I would(B
(J> > like to pose part of my(B
(J> > original query again.(B
(J> >(B
(J> > In particular, it is the second part of my question(B
(J> > (which was not(B
(J> > responded to) that I would like to resubmit. I(B
(J> > wrote:(B
(J> >(B
(J> > $(D+$)M(JAs a soon-to-be doctoral student who is hoping to(B
(J> > focus his research on(B
(J> > Nahuatl documents such as these, I am interested in(B
(J> > determining what are(B
(J> > the persistent problems, questions and unexplored(B
(J> > avenues that remain. Or,(B
(J> > put another way, where would you advise a would-be(B
(J> > scholar who wants to(B
(J> > work with Nahuatl source material turn his(B
(J> > attention?$(D+$$B".(B
(J> >(B
(J> > Any advice would be greatly appreciated!(B
(J> >(B
(J> > Ben Leeming(B
(J> > The Rivers School(B
(J> > Weston, MA(B
(J> >(B
(J> > _______________________________________________(B
(J> > Nahuatl mailing list(B
(J> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org(B
(J> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl(B
(J> >(B
(J> (B
(J> (B
(J> __________________________________________________(B
(J> Do You Yahoo!?(B
(J> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around(B
(J> http://mail.yahoo.com(B
(J> _______________________________________________(B
(J> Nahuatl mailing list(B
(J> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org(B
(J> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl(B
(J> (B

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From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com  Sat Oct 28 06:24:27 2006
From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:24:27 -0700
Subject: manhattan
Message-ID: <FRI.27.OCT.2006.232427.0700.GILCHRIST.SUSAN@GMAIL.COM>

>
> I couldn't tell from the original message if the person was asking for
> an etymology of Manhattan, or what.  But, right, it's not Nahuatl. >>:-)
>
>
I'm sorry I was unclear, I meant to cite "man + hat + tan" just as an
example of something that isn't an etymology. I think it's just a way
for school children to remember the double t. At the same time, it
might be that whoever transcribed what the local Manhattanite said was
the name tried to spell it in an easy way.
Susan Gilchrist
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From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com  Sat Oct 28 07:41:10 2006
From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:41:10 -0700
Subject: chichimeca
Message-ID: <SAT.28.OCT.2006.004110.0700.GILCHRIST.SUSAN@GMAIL.COM>

Thinking about it a different way, I wonder if the
Coyoacan picture<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg>relates
to the wolf
of Gubbio <http://www.assisiweb.com/foto/Pienza_SF_PB200102b.jpg>
and the story of the
wolf<http://www.wtu.edu/franciscan/pages/intro/gubbio.html>in the
Little
Flowers of
St. Francis <http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/flowers1.htm>.
In other words the horrible dogs the soldiers
brought with them must have made it hard for
Dominicans to explain the word play in "domini
canes" and even worse for Franciscans to tell the
story of how St. Francis was able to persuade a
wolf to be nice to people. Plus as the person on
the Dominican website explained, dogs can
stand for priests in general.
So maybe the rope that's attached to the dog in
the picture (or possible to the person the dog is
attacking?) hasn't got anything to do with
"chichi-mecatl" and instead is there to make it
clear that the situation is under the control of the
soldier. It's worse than a wild animal, represented
by the well-behaved coyote in the place sign (or
the dog glyph for one person's name).
That would make sense in European terms where
it would be commonplace to say men were capable
of worse behavior than animals. The idea of a
picture that's recognizable is something that I think
is also a European element (as in Pliny's biography
of Apelles), since the dog is drawn in a European
way.
I was thinking about the Coyoacan picture in terms
of the good dog-bad dog opposition in Murner's
Logica Memorativa<http://webdoc.gwdg.de/edoc/ia/eese/artic20/hoeltgen/fig11.html>,
which might be something that
actually was brought to Mexico fairly early.
I'm still puzzled by the word chichi, even as a loan
word from another language. Were there just wolves,
coyotes, and the dogs we call chihuahuas? Did people
call European dogs perros?
Thank you to John Sullivan for the reference to the
gourd tree in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and to
Pablo Garcia for the reference to the Gran
Chichimeca Xolotl.
Susan Gilchrist
http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/
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From L.Diel at tcu.edu  Sat Oct 28 14:19:10 2006
From: L.Diel at tcu.edu (Diel, Lori)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:19:10 -0500
Subject: chichimeca
Message-ID: <SAT.28.OCT.2006.091910.0500.L.DIEL@TCU.EDU>

I have been researching the painting to which you refer.  I believe you are providing a metaphoric interpretation, but a more straightforward reading of the imagery is called for.  The painting references a historic event in which an indigenous man was ordered to be attacked by the dog (controlled by the Spaniard) presumably for refusing to accept Christianity (notice the rosary Marina holds and the sword held by one of the indigenous men).  The dots at the bottom do reference years (a total of 41) but these are meant to be counted from Cortes's arrival, as is stated in an associated alphabetic gloss in Nahuatl.  My reading of this gloss follows, but if any of the Nahuatl specialists out there have an alternative translation, I welcome hearing it.  My reading of "ynauh xiuyoc..." as "4 years later..." makes sense historically, but I'm not sure if it works linguistically.

Ynacico marques ya onpoualxiuitl once  axcan ynauh xiuyoc yn ya miq tlatoque
The Marques [Cortes] came 41 years ago, 4 years later the tlatoque died.

This translation suggests the annotation was added in 1560, and the events depicted happened in 1523.

Best,
Lori B. Diel


---
Lori Boornazian Diel, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Art History
Dept. of Art and Art History
Texas Christian University


-----Original Message-----
From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org on behalf of Susan Gilchrist
Sent: Sat 10/28/2006 2:41 AM
To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Nahuat-l] chichimeca
 
Thinking about it a different way, I wonder if the
Coyoacan picture<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg>relates
to the wolf
of Gubbio <http://www.assisiweb.com/foto/Pienza_SF_PB200102b.jpg>
and the story of the
wolf<http://www.wtu.edu/franciscan/pages/intro/gubbio.html>in the
Little
Flowers of
St. Francis <http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/flowers1.htm>.
In other words the horrible dogs the soldiers
brought with them must have made it hard for
Dominicans to explain the word play in "domini
canes" and even worse for Franciscans to tell the
story of how St. Francis was able to persuade a
wolf to be nice to people. Plus as the person on
the Dominican website explained, dogs can
stand for priests in general.
So maybe the rope that's attached to the dog in
the picture (or possible to the person the dog is
attacking?) hasn't got anything to do with
"chichi-mecatl" and instead is there to make it
clear that the situation is under the control of the
soldier. It's worse than a wild animal, represented
by the well-behaved coyote in the place sign (or
the dog glyph for one person's name).
That would make sense in European terms where
it would be commonplace to say men were capable
of worse behavior than animals. The idea of a
picture that's recognizable is something that I think
is also a European element (as in Pliny's biography
of Apelles), since the dog is drawn in a European
way.
I was thinking about the Coyoacan picture in terms
of the good dog-bad dog opposition in Murner's
Logica Memorativa<http://webdoc.gwdg.de/edoc/ia/eese/artic20/hoeltgen/fig11.html>,
which might be something that
actually was brought to Mexico fairly early.
I'm still puzzled by the word chichi, even as a loan
word from another language. Were there just wolves,
coyotes, and the dogs we call chihuahuas? Did people
call European dogs perros?
Thank you to John Sullivan for the reference to the
gourd tree in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and to
Pablo Garcia for the reference to the Gran
Chichimeca Xolotl.
Susan Gilchrist
http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/


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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sat Oct 28 16:34:18 2006
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:34:18 -0500
Subject: Placename: Chalco
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.62.0610271015270.17763@steel07.uits.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.OCT.2006.113418.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Estimado Joe:

Como parte de un an?lisis de las relaciones entre los signos pict?ricos y
las expresiones verbales en los manuscritos pict?ricos del Centro de M?xico,
me fij? en el signo topon?mico tallado en la Piedra de Tizoc, que
aparentemente se relaciona con el se?or?o prehisp?nico de Chalco. Es una
banda con forma de anillo, rodeado de peque?os elementos radiales parecidos
a plumas, luego circulitos conc?ntricos como cuentas, tambi?n con una
disposici?n radial. Del anillo central parece colgar un elemento alargado
con algunas l?neas horizontales en su superficie. La composici?n entera da
la idea de una joya. Para el top?nimo verbal Chalco encuentro dos
alternativas, ninguna de las cuales est? libre de problemas: ?en las piedras
verdes? o ?en la depresi?n?. Despu?s de estas propuestas de traducci?n
agregu? la siguiente nota de pie:

**********************
Algunos autores sugieren una relaci?n sem?ntica entre Chalco y la palabra
chalchihuitl, ?la piedra verde? (Berdan, 1992d: 176; Bierhorst, 1985: 74,
75). Garibay (en Dur?n, 1967: II, 585) traduce Chalco como ?en el borde de
la depresi?n?. Seg?n el C?dice Ram?rez (Alvarado Tezoz?moc, 1980: 18), ?El
segundo linaje es el de los Chalcas, que quiere decir gente de las bocas,
porque Challi significa un hueco ? manera de boca, y ass? lo hueco de la
boca llaman Camachalli, que se compone de camac, que quiere decir la boca, y
de challi, que es lo hueco, y de este nombre Challi, y esta part?cula, ca.
se compone Chalca, que significa los poseedores de las bocas?. El
significado que se da de challi (palabra que no se encuentra en el
vocabulario de Molina) refuerza la mencionada traducci?n de Garibay.
***********************

Las referencias citadas se apuntan a continuaci?n; la ?ltima es la fuente
donde aparece la nota de pie reproducida arriba.

ALVARADO TEZOZ?MOC, Hernando
1980 Cr?nica mexicana escrita por D. Hernando Alvarado Tezoz?moc hacia el
a?o de MDXCVIII, anotado por el Sr. Lic. D. Manuel Orozco y Berra y
precedida del C?dice Ram?rez, manuscrito del siglo XVI intitulado: Relaci?n
del origen de los indios que habitan esta Nueva Espa?a seg?n sus historias,
facs?mil de la ed. de 1878, M?xico, Editorial Porr?a.

BERDAN, Frances F.
1992d ?The place-name, personal name, and title glyphs of the Codex Mendoza:
translations and comments?, en The Codex Mendoza, vol. 1, Frances F. Berdan
y Patricia Rieff Anawalt, editoras, Berkeley/Los ?ngeles/Oxford, University
of California Press, pp. 163-238.

BIERHORST, John
1985 A Nahuatl-English dictionary and concordance to the Cantares mexicanos,
with an analytical transcription and grammatical notes, Stanford, Stanford
University Press.

DUR?N, Diego
1967 Historia de las Indias de Nueva Espa?a e islas de tierra firme, 2
vols., ?ngel Mar?a Garibay Kintana, editor, M?xico, Editorial Porr?a.

WRIGHT Carr, David Charles
2005 Los otom?es: cultura, lengua y escritura, 2 vols., tesis, Zamora,
Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales, El Colegio de Michoac?n.

Saludos,

David

**********************
>Encouraged by the discussion of "chichimeca", I am wondering if I could 
get some help on "Chalco".  I'd like to resolve it in relation to words 
like:

>chalcatl          person from Chalco
>chalcatlatoque    Chalcan rulers
>mochalcanenequi   he pretends to be a Chalcan
>mochalcachichiuh  he adorned himself as a Chalcan
>chalcayotl        stuff relating to Chalco

>Tlazohcamatitzin,

>Joe


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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Sat Oct 28 20:41:22 2006
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:41:22 +0200
Subject: Carochis grammar of Otomi
Message-ID: <SAT.28.OCT.2006.224122.0200.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Nawatl listers

I saw that one of you were working with Carochi documents and others had
participated in work on the arte. Now I have a question:

According to the Catholic encyclopedia Carochi wrote a grammar of the Otomi
language which hasn't been published. Is there anything known about it? Its
whereabouts forexample? Does it exist as anything other than a mention? If
it does is it any good and how do I get my hands on it?

Magnus Pharao Hansen
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sat Oct 28 21:50:14 2006
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 16:50:14 -0500
Subject: Carochis grammar of Otomi
In-Reply-To: <e03a2ea10610281341n4dc3f104q4acc14ad766cdfb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.OCT.2006.165014.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Estimado Magnus:
 
The primary reference to Horacio Carochi's Otomi grammar is in *Luces del
otomi*, another Otomi grammar written around 1767 by an anonymous Jesuit and
published in 1893 by Eustaquio Buelna. This priest says that Carochi wrote
an Otomi grammar that had been as highly praised as Carochi's Nahuatl
grammar, although it wasn't published due to typographical limitations
(Otomi has quite a few phonemes that don't exist in Spanish). He says he
copied it in Tepozotlan but lost his copy, although he cites Carochi's work
among other sources. The original seems to have been in the Jesuit library
of San Gregorio in Mexico City, another school for Indians, after the
expulsion of the Sociedad de Jesus in 1767. Manuscripts from the library of
San Gregorio were later dispersed. Some ended up in the Biblioteca Nacional
de Mexico, others in the Seminario Conciliar in Mexico City (where Angel
Maria Garibay consulted some Carochi manuscripts during the Mexican
Revolution). Others were dispersed. Nobody knows today what happened to the
Otomi grammar. If we had it, work on early colonial Otomi manuscripts would
progress at a faster pace than it has to date.
 
I think several existing manuscripts may be attributed to Carochi and his
circle of Otomi-speaking collaborators (among them Francisco de Aguilar, a
native of Tepotzotlan, who translated texts into otom? and added complex
diacritics): (1) The anonoymous *Vocabulario otomi* of 1640 (Biblioteca
Nacional de M?xico, ms. 1497); (2) The *Doctrina otomi* at the Princeton
University Library (Princeton Mesoamerican Manuscript no. 1); (3) Ayer Ms.
1809 at the Newberry Library, Chicago; and (4) the *Sermonario en lengua
otomi* in the Gomez de Orozco Collection, Biblioteca Nacional de
Antropologia e Historia, Mexico. For further information, provenance data
and descriptions of these manuscripts, see my article "Manuscritos otomies
de la Biblioteca de la Universidad de Princeton" (Estudios de Cultura
Otopame, IIA-UNAM, no. 4) and book, *Manuscritos otomies en la Biblioteca
Newberry and the Biblioteca de la Universidad de Princeton* (Guanajuato,
Ediciones La Rana, Instituto de la Cultura del Estado de Guanajuato, 2006).
 
If you find the lost Carochi grammar please let me know.
 
Saludos,
 
David Wright
 
http://www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright/

  _____  

De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de magnus hansen
Enviado el: S?bado, 28 de Octubre de 2006 03:41 p.m.
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Carochis grammar of Otomi


Nawatl listers
 
I saw that one of you were working with Carochi documents and others had
participated in work on the arte. Now I have a question:
 
According to the Catholic encyclopedia Carochi wrote a grammar of the Otomi
language which hasn't been published. Is there anything known about it? Its
whereabouts forexample? Does it exist as anything other than a mention? If
it does is it any good and how do I get my hands on it? 
 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
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From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Sun Oct 29 10:59:40 2006
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:59:40 -0800
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.62.0610262323170.4@steel03.uits.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.025940.0800.MMONTCHA@OREGONVOS.NET>

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, R. Joe Campbell wrote:
|     To add to John's suggestions for alternatives to what she may have
| said, there is a morphological reason for not believing that she said
| "nepahtia", 'it cures itself'.  The reflexive prefix for finite verbs is
| not "ne-", but "mo-", so 'it is cured' is "mopahtia".

Can you describe the difference between finite verbs, and, um,
infinite verbs?  Is it the same thing as transitive and intransitive
forms of verbs?  Or personal and impersonal?  The books I have seen
so far are not very consistent with their descriptions of the
grammatical forms.

| "ne-" is a non-specific reflexive prefix and appears only on
| *derived* forms of verbs (or impersonal forms).

Okay, I'll try to memorize that.  I've got the Analytic Compendium
of Nahuatl Grammar, and the author didn't mention that.  When a
situation "cures itself," I took for something as reasonably
impersonal.  For instance, having the sniffles tends to call
for time, and little else.  (Although I'm inclined to say that
chronic suffering of allergies calls for something else.)

|     Examples:
|
|    derivation         meaning           base verb
|
|    nehtolli           vow               ihtoa
|
|    nezahualiztli      fast (act of)     zahua
|
|    necuepaliztli      return (act of)   cuepa
|
|    nealtilo           there is bathing  altia
|
|    nealtiayan         bathing place     altia
|
|    nezomalli          anger             zoma
|
|     I have a more basic problem with the situation that Matthew
| described.  What would lead us to believe that the woman was
| speaking Nahuatl?

Sheer numbers, I was supposing.  Of course, you are right, it could
be just about anything, but I was hoping (in vain) that "nepatia"
might have been Nawatl (or a language descended from it).  Of
course, it could have been some obscure Indian language from much
farther south, too.

| Could it have been one of the other approximately 55 indigenous
| languages of Mexico?

Sure, there's no telling.

| Or a language from Central America or someplace else in the
| world?

Well, South America even.  You have a good point.  It could be from
just about anywhere.  Even the 'ethnic' appearance of a Latin
American woman doesn't prove anything, either.  The expression could
even have been Spanish, but "Nepa Tia" doesn't make much sense to
me.  The Spanish word 'tia' is a relative, I think.  And 'nepa'
might be onions or mustard seed, or some kind of a condiment or
other, but I'm just guessing.  What tipped the whole thing in favor
of Nawatl was its involving a kid picking up some Ludens Lemon Drops
and the mother saying "Nepatia" and putting it back on the shelf.
(At least the kid had good taste, and knew what tasted good.)

|     Further, bearing witness to a language event can be
| dangerous, more so in a language not our own, and certainly
| outside of a situation where we can say, "mande?", "come again?",
| "I'm sorry?" (as some people now say), etc.
|
|     One of my own iconic language listening experiences happened about
| forty years ago when I had no doubts about the accuracy of my hearing.
| I came out of my house on a winter morning carrying a heavy
| university-owned tape recorder.  When I took my third step down an icy
| sidewalk, I fell flat on my back, probably cushioning my fall by pushing
| the tape recorder down, so that it received the first impact.
|     Later that day, I was walking down a hallway filled with the burble of
| students walking by and I narrated the event to an older colleague with
| whom I had a polite relationship.  He replied, "Well, that says something
| about your ability with the taperecorder!"   ...I was stunned that he
| would speak to me with that kind of irony, even rising to sarcasm...
| No, he wouldn't say that to me...  If not, what did he say?  I played it
| back in my head over and over.  By the time we had walked about three
| classrooms down the hall, I heard it differently and realized that now I
| had it right...  He had said, "Well, that says something about the
| durability of the tape recorder."

hehe  Well, I'm sure to have many more mistakes before I get a grip
on this language.

|     We just don't hear segment by segment, syllable by syllable, with
| total accuracy.
|
| Iztayohmeh
|
| Joe

Thanks for the corrections....  I don't give up this easy.  I always
go to sleep with the Analytic Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar in my
bed before dozing off every night...

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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sun Oct 29 17:39:02 2006
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 11:39:02 -0600
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610290241090.6419-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.113902.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Matthew:

>>From what I've been able to gather, the indefinite reflexive prefix -ne can
substitute the more usual reflexive prefixes n(o)-, t(o)- and m(o)- in
passive and impersonal forms of verbs, in derived causative and applicative
verbs, and in deverbal nouns.

Andrews gives a good example of a reflexive verb transformed into an
applicative verb using the applicative/causative sufix -lia:.
Nicneihya:nilia (ni + c + ne + ihya:na (a > i) + lia: (a: > a)), "I hide
from him/her/it".

The prefix ne- appears with patientive deverbal nouns constructed from
passive or preterite forms of verbs. These have absolutive suffixes (-tli or
-li). The resulting nouns mean "he/she/it that has received the action (or
experienced the state) of the verb". When these verbs are transitive, they
take an object prefix (te:- or tla-) or the reflexive prefix (ne-). Carochi
gives the example ne:machti:lli (sic for nemachti:lli, "learning and study",
from the verb machtia:, "to learn or study"): (ne + (machtia: - a:) (i > i:)
+ (lo: - o:) + li). The passive suffix is lo:, which looses its vowel before
taking the absolutive suffix -li; that explains the double 'l'.

It can also show up in deverbal action nouns with the suffix -liztli (liz +
tli), meaning "the act of (verb)". Carochi gives nepo:hualiztli, "the act of
being arrogant" ("arrogance"), from the verb po:hua, "to be arrogant" (ne +
po:hua + liz + tli).

Saludos,

David

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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sun Oct 29 18:01:04 2006
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 12:01:04 -0600
Subject: nepatia Re: [Nahuat-l]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610290241090.6419-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.120104.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Matthew:

I've never heard of the *Analytic Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar,* which you
mention twice. I have Karttunen's *An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl* and
Sullivan's *Compendio de la Gramatica Nahuatl* (which I understand exists in
translation as the *Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar*). Is there a new grammar
out, or have you just added a Karttunian adjective to Sullivan's classic
(but phonologically pre-Andrews) study?

Saludos,

David

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From huehueteot at aol.com  Sun Oct 29 20:02:38 2006
From: huehueteot at aol.com (huehueteot at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 15:02:38 -0500
Subject: chichimeca
In-Reply-To: <7517DB28B0FDDB4090098DF6176FD4D1597FC4@fsmaillk1a.tcu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.150238.0500.>

 All:
 
 Somewhere during my graduate days I saw a catalogue of the "horrors" (and they certainly were, even by the standards of the time) of the actions of encomenderos toward their indigenous subjects uncovered by "vicitas" (sp?) or investigative accountings undertaken by the Spanish government. Called "Emperramiento" where a man would be tied to a framework and torn apart by large viscous dogs was common enough that the government banned the activity altogether. There was a general historical treatment of this and other aspects of Colonial Spanish Rule in the early period that detailed this and other atrocities, but I don't remember the author or the title.
 
 Cheers,
    Hugh G. "Sam" Ball
 
 And remember:
 
 "This too Shall Pass!   
 -----Original Message-----
 From: L.Diel at tcu.edu
 To: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
 Sent: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 8:19 AM
 Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] chichimeca
 
  I have been researching the painting to which you refer.  I believe you are 
providing a metaphoric interpretation, but a more straightforward reading of the 
imagery is called for.  The painting references a historic event in which an 
indigenous man was ordered to be attacked by the dog (controlled by the 
Spaniard) presumably for refusing to accept Christianity (notice the rosary 
Marina holds and the sword held by one of the indigenous men).  The dots at the 
bottom do reference years (a total of 41) but these are meant to be counted from 
Cortes's arrival, as is stated in an associated alphabetic gloss in Nahuatl.  My 
reading of this gloss follows, but if any of the Nahuatl specialists out there 
have an alternative translation, I welcome hearing it.  My reading of "ynauh 
xiuyoc..." as "4 years later..." makes sense historically, but I'm not sure if 
it works linguistically.

Ynacico marques ya onpoualxiuitl once  axcan ynauh xiuyoc yn ya miq tlatoque
The Marques [Cortes] came 41 years ago, 4 years later the tlatoque died.

This translation suggests the annotation was added in 1560, and the events 
depicted happened in 1523.

Best,
Lori B. Diel


---
Lori Boornazian Diel, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Art History
Dept. of Art and Art History
Texas Christian University


-----Original Message-----
From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org on behalf of Susan Gilchrist
Sent: Sat 10/28/2006 2:41 AM
To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Nahuat-l] chichimeca
 
Thinking about it a different way, I wonder if the
Coyoacan picture<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg>relates
to the wolf
of Gubbio <http://www.assisiweb.com/foto/Pienza_SF_PB200102b.jpg>
and the story of the
wolf<http://www.wtu.edu/franciscan/pages/intro/gubbio.html>in the
Little
Flowers of
St. Francis <http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/flowers1.htm>.
In other words the horrible dogs the soldiers
brought with them must have made it hard for
Dominicans to explain the word play in "domini
canes" and even worse for Franciscans to tell the
story of how St. Francis was able to persuade a
wolf to be nice to people. Plus as the person on
the Dominican website explained, dogs can
stand for priests in general.
So maybe the rope that's attached to the dog in
the picture (or possible to the person the dog is
attacking?) hasn't got anything to do with
"chichi-mecatl" and instead is there to make it
clear that the situation is under the control of the
soldier. It's worse than a wild animal, represented
by the well-behaved coyote in the place sign (or
the dog glyph for one person's name).
That would make sense in European terms where
it would be commonplace to say men were capable
of worse behavior than animals. The idea of a
picture that's recognizable is something that I think
is also a European element (as in Pliny's biography
of Apelles), since the dog is drawn in a European
way.
I was thinking about the Coyoacan picture in terms
of the good dog-bad dog opposition in Murner's
Logica Memorativa<http://webdoc.gwdg.de/edoc/ia/eese/artic20/hoeltgen/fig11.html>,
which might be something that
actually was brought to Mexico fairly early.
I'm still puzzled by the word chichi, even as a loan
word from another language. Were there just wolves,
coyotes, and the dogs we call chihuahuas? Did people
call European dogs perros?
Thank you to John Sullivan for the reference to the
gourd tree in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and to
Pablo Garcia for the reference to the Gran
Chichimeca Xolotl.
Susan Gilchrist
http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/


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From memoriasmadera at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 29 21:32:48 2006
From: memoriasmadera at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?edgar=20mu=F1oz=20delgado?=)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 15:32:48 -0600
Subject: Poetry
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.153248.0600.MEMORIASMADERA@YAHOO.COM>

Friends:
  Do you know a nahuatl poetry : "nic tzozona ya in tohuehueo anic ni huan o ma  itohua aya... or something?
  Please I need read it.
  Thanks
  Edgar

 __________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis! 
Reg?strate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ 
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From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com  Mon Oct 30 04:58:51 2006
From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:58:51 -0800
Subject: chichimeca
In-Reply-To: <7517DB28B0FDDB4090098DF6176FD4D1597FC4@fsmaillk1a.tcu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.OCT.2006.205851.0800.GILCHRIST.SUSAN@GMAIL.COM>

I'm glad you're looking at the Coyoacan
page<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg>more
closely, because
I don't have a good idea of the date of the event or of the drawing,
or earlier drawings that might have been the basis for it. I'm not sure
we've really contradicted each other about the dots, which I'm
copying for clarity:
o   o-o-o-o-o   o-o-o-o-o   o-o-o-o-o   o-o-o-o-o   o-o-o-o-o   o-o-o-o-o
o-o-o-o-o   o-+-o-o-o-o
It seems to me as though the basis for counting is a Biblical-sounding 40
years
made more precise by the extra dot at the left and the cross at the right
in a way that would have made perfect sense at the time.

Does it make sense to say it's some kind of a mix of European and Nahuatl
ways of counting time in any event, since Nahuatl picture writing doesn't
mark
time "ago" and uses dates instead, even if a person speaking Nahuatl might
say something happened "41 years ago"? If the person had stayed with the
normal system, we wouldn't have to wonder whether the event happened in
5-Calli (1523) or 10-Tecpatl (1528).

To me it seems as though an effect of the 40-year count is to make it so
that
everything on the page relates to Bartholome de las Casas and his Brev?sima
Relacion<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b75-las-casas-brevissima-p1.jpg>,
including the "tyrants" at the top of the page and the scenes with the
dog and the men tied to a rope. If (combining two ways of doing the
arithmetic)
the idea was that bad things were happening 40-some years after 1492 and
still were happening 40-some years "ago" it's a way of making a very strong
connection to Las Casas and his books, and to the 40 year spans in the
Bible, where 40 years is a very long time, long enough for a generation of
people to die.

So far as metaphor goes, I'm introducing the Coyoacan drawing into a
discussion of a European painting where it seems as though the metaphors
are out of control. The way the artist represented dogs in a hell
scene<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b74-4-tochtli-and-dogs.jpg>is
so over-the-top that people seem to assume it has to do entirely with
medieval images of hell. Then since they're in a hell scene, the implication

is that the victims must deserve whatever happens to them. I think the
artists were representing similar events, but the European artist got a lot
more tangled up in metaphor. But I think the two artists may have been
working within a similar theoretical framework, that is they were both
invoking Las Casas as an authority on how Europeans should view the
events, and they were both looking at the Rhetorica ad Herennium
and the ancient artist
Apelles<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b77%2520apelles%2520and%2520ptolemy%2520eng.jpg>as
models. The story of how Apelles
identified a person by drawing a recognizable picture is something that
would likely have been familiar to a priest teaching Latin, and new to
people who were more familiar with indigenous art.

Another way to look at the Coyoacan picture is that it's a neat solution
to a problem in the Rhetorica ad Herennium, where the anonymous
author seems to think the reader ought to be able to visualize a long
row of "loci" marked in sets of 5 or 10, which is supposed to be an
easy way to remember things. It seems impossible if as the author
suggests, the reader tries to visualize spaces between columns (for
instance the columns in Charles V's palace in the
Alhambra<http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b58%2520alhambra%2520cv%2520palace%2520wikipedia.jpg>).
But the
artist who made the Coyoacan picture made it easy to visualize 40
"loci" and/or the spaces between them.

So I'm not really adding anything to what's known about the Coyoacan
picture except to agree that it does seem obvious that the artist/writer
was learning from a priest, which is already obvious from the Roman-
alphabet writing. If the priest was going to say something about a picture,
it's likely he would have cited the RAH and even more likely he would have
cited Pliny. I would like to know more about the picture and its context,
particularly the date. Is there something I could  be reading, besides
your work-in-progress?
Can I add a note based on your e-mail to my weblog, or even attach the
whole e-mail? I don't want to contribute to filling the internet with half-
explanations of things.
Also, thank you for reading the Nahuatl language gloss. I don't know
Nahuatl and was relying on Ramirez, who says

Fig. 6?Sobre la linea de ceros que alli se ve partida por una cruz, hay la
siguiente leyenda:
    Ynacico Marques ya cempoali xihuitl once axcan mauhxiuyoc in ya micque
Tlatoque [=] Vino ? dar el Marques a los quarenta a?os es decir ahora ? los
quatro a?os de muertos los caballeros
Susan Gilchrist
http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/

On 10/28/06, Diel, Lori <L.Diel at tcu.edu> wrote:
>
> I have been researching the painting to which you refer.  I believe you
> are providing a metaphoric interpretation, but a more straightforward
> reading of the imagery is called for.  The painting references a historic
> event in which an indigenous man was ordered to be attacked by the dog
> (controlled by the Spaniard) presumably for refusing to accept Christianity
> (notice the rosary Marina holds and the sword held by one of the indigenous
> men).  The dots at the bottom do reference years (a total of 41) but these
> are meant to be counted from Cortes's arrival, as is stated in an associated
> alphabetic gloss in Nahuatl.  My reading of this gloss follows, but if any
> of the Nahuatl specialists out there have an alternative translation, I
> welcome hearing it.  My reading of "ynauh xiuyoc..." as "4 years later..."
> makes sense historically, but I'm not sure if it works linguistically.
>
> Ynacico marques ya onpoualxiuitl once  axcan ynauh xiuyoc yn ya miq
> tlatoque
> The Marques [Cortes] came 41 years ago, 4 years later the tlatoque died.
>
> This translation suggests the annotation was added in 1560, and the events
> depicted happened in 1523.
>
> Best,
> Lori B. Diel
>
>
> ---
> Lori Boornazian Diel, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor of Art History
> Dept. of Art and Art History
> Texas Christian University
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org on behalf of Susan Gilchrist
> Sent: Sat 10/28/2006 2:41 AM
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] chichimeca
>
> Thinking about it a different way, I wonder if the
> Coyoacan picture<
> http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/4912/3197/1600/b73-1599-trial-Cholula-1519.0.jpg
> >relates
> to the wolf
> of Gubbio <http://www.assisiweb.com/foto/Pienza_SF_PB200102b.jpg>
> and the story of the
> wolf<http://www.wtu.edu/franciscan/pages/intro/gubbio.html>in the
> Little
> Flowers of
> St. Francis <http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/flowers1.htm>.
> In other words the horrible dogs the soldiers
> brought with them must have made it hard for
> Dominicans to explain the word play in "domini
> canes" and even worse for Franciscans to tell the
> story of how St. Francis was able to persuade a
> wolf to be nice to people. Plus as the person on
> the Dominican website explained, dogs can
> stand for priests in general.
> So maybe the rope that's attached to the dog in
> the picture (or possible to the person the dog is
> attacking?) hasn't got anything to do with
> "chichi-mecatl" and instead is there to make it
> clear that the situation is under the control of the
> soldier. It's worse than a wild animal, represented
> by the well-behaved coyote in the place sign (or
> the dog glyph for one person's name).
> That would make sense in European terms where
> it would be commonplace to say men were capable
> of worse behavior than animals. The idea of a
> picture that's recognizable is something that I think
> is also a European element (as in Pliny's biography
> of Apelles), since the dog is drawn in a European
> way.
> I was thinking about the Coyoacan picture in terms
> of the good dog-bad dog opposition in Murner's
> Logica Memorativa<
> http://webdoc.gwdg.de/edoc/ia/eese/artic20/hoeltgen/fig11.html>,
> which might be something that
> actually was brought to Mexico fairly early.
> I'm still puzzled by the word chichi, even as a loan
> word from another language. Were there just wolves,
> coyotes, and the dogs we call chihuahuas? Did people
> call European dogs perros?
> Thank you to John Sullivan for the reference to the
> gourd tree in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and to
> Pablo Garcia for the reference to the Gran
> Chichimeca Xolotl.
> Susan Gilchrist
> http://elboscoblog.blogspot.com/
>
>
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Mon Oct 30 13:38:38 2006
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:38:38 -0500
Subject: chichimeca
In-Reply-To: <8C8C9AC51746ECF-BC4-7F19@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.OCT.2006.083838.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

At 03:02 PM 10/29/2006, you wrote:
>There was a general historical treatment of this and other aspects 
>of Colonial Spanish Rule in the early period that detailed this and 
>other atrocities, but I don't remember the author or the title.


The book is _Dogs of the Conquest_, by John Grier and Jeanette 
Varner, University of Oklahoma Press, 1983



John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676

315-267-2100
315-267-2496 fax

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From swood at uoregon.edu  Mon Oct 30 18:41:17 2006
From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:41:17 -0800
Subject: Nahuatl scholarship
In-Reply-To: <20061027145909.92724.qmail@web31707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.OCT.2006.104117.0800.SWOOD@UOREGON.EDU>

Nahuat-L listeros,

I also thank Michael for his good suggestions.  There is so much to  
be done, and I am excited about the research directions of the Leiden  
group. Regarding Michael's first point, one could say that some  
progress is being made in this area.  I found some testaments in  
parish archives, and Cati Pizzigoni's work included some testaments  
from some of these more local archives.  Miriam Melton-Villanueva is  
also working with a cache of testaments which, I believe, are not  
from a national archive.  What is exciting, too, about Miriam's  
sources are how "late" some of them are -- early 19th c.  We have  
often sought nineteenth-century, mundane Nahuatl records, but without  
much success so far.  Getting to more local archives should help.

Another great development is the work of the late Luis Reyes Garc?a's  
students. Lidia G?mez Garc?a and Ra?l Macuil Mart?nez, for instance,  
are visiting local archives in the states of Puebla and Tlaxcala, and  
are busy digitizing manuscripts in Nahuatl that they find. These are  
very gradually being made available through the Early Nahuatl Virtual  
Library Project that we are developing at the Wired Humanities  
Project at the University of Oregon.  Transcriptions and translations  
will come in time.  (We have no grant for this project, yet --  
suggestions are welcomed!)

We are also digitizing and developing studies of pictorial  
manuscripts in the Mapas Project. For this project, we have just  
landed an NEH grant to develop four of the mapas. The Mapas Project  
is particularly interdisciplinary, with linguists and art historians  
assisting, and while the sources are colonial, we are bringing in  
ethnographic and archaeological information to help us understand the  
content of the manuscripts.  Nahuas in John Sullivan's courses at  
IDIEZ have also agreed to work on some of the transcriptions and  
translations.

Best wishes,
Stephanie Wood
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