From silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Aug  1 17:38:11 2007
From: silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx (Ignacio Silva)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 12:38:11 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 55, Issue 1
Message-ID: <WED.1.AUG.2007.123811.0500.SILVA171270@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

En nahuatl Flor del cielo se dice ILHUICAXOCHITL.

Saludos.

Nacho.
----- Original Message -----
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Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 55, Issue 1


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> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:31:20 -0700
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> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Translation
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> can someone please help me out. translate SKY FLOWER..
> Meaning????
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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Thu Aug  2 03:02:03 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 20:02:03 -0700
Subject: Flores y Nombres
In-Reply-To: <001801c7d462$bc7adac0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net>
Message-ID: <WED.1.AUG.2007.200203.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

On Aug 1, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Ignacio Silva wrote:
> En nahuatl Flor del cielo se dice ILHUICAXOCHITL.
>
Pense en mandar la siguente pregunta... pero al revisar mi  
ortografia, halle la respuesta....
Asi pues, me he preguntado por años, que es un Azcalxochitl?  se  
traduce como flor de hormiga, pero que flor es?  Lirio o sea el "Iris"

Y estando en esta tema... alguien sabe bien el significado de  
Cuitlahuac?
he encontrado, oro hundido, excremento, o pueblo de excremento, y oro  
de dios.  El hombre era un noble; no tiene sentido ese tipo de  
desglose...

¿Como se hace busequeda en los archivos... ?
se me hace que esta pregunta seguro y ha sido preguntado antes.




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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Thu Aug  2 12:38:36 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:38:36 -0400
Subject: Flores y Nombres
In-Reply-To: <E0F406C6-8CCB-40EB-B2D6-AA15B3A9D5BC@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.083836.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Efectivamente, hemos hablado en la lista acerca del tema de cuitlahuac.  
Para hacer busqueda en los archivos de la lista es preciso irse a la 
pagina web:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/nahuat-l.html

Alla se puede hacer click en "Search the archives"

Se encuentra 12 ocasiones cuando esta palabra ocurrio en la lista.

Significa cuitlahuac "lugar de excremento"

El excremento era una cosa con gran valor para los Nahua.  Era el abono 
necesario para la productividad tremenda de los chinampas.  Tenia 
relaciones linguisticas con el oro y la plata (coztic teocuitlatl e 
iztac teocuitlatl)




Kier Salmon wrote:
>
> Y estando en esta tema... alguien sabe bien el significado de Cuitlahuac?
> he encontrado, oro hundido, excremento, o pueblo de excremento, y oro 
> de dios.  El hombre era un noble; no tiene sentido ese tipo de 
> desglose...
>
> ¿Como se hace busequeda en los archivos... ?
> se me hace que esta pregunta seguro y ha sido preguntado antes.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From sylvia at famsi.org  Thu Aug  2 14:36:36 2007
From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 10:36:36 -0400
Subject: Grantee Reports, Informes & Traducciones en Espanol
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.103636.0400.>

Hello Mesoamericanists,

Announcing our newest grantee research reports posted at FAMSI website:

The Technology of Ancient Mesoamerican Mosaics: 
An Experimental Investigation of Alternative Super Glues (2006)
by Frances F. Berdan.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06015/index.html


Informe en Espanol:

Investigaciones Arqueologicas en la Region de Holmul, 
Peten, Guatemala (2004)
por Francisco Estrada-Belli.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/03103Ces/index.html


Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos del Ingles
al Espanol:

El Proyecto de Esculturas de Kaminaljuyu: 
Una Base de Datos Ampliable en Tres Dimensiones (2007)
por Travis Doering y Lori Collins.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/07007es/index.html

Reyes del Cerro Jaguar: Monumentos y Escondites en 
Zapote Bobal (2005)
por James L. Fitzsimmons.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05047es/index.html

Las Estelas del Siglo IX en Machaquila y Ceibal (2002)
por Bryan R. Just.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/01050es/index.html

Un Analisis Comparativo del Arte Verbal Ch'orti' y de las 
Estructuras del Discurso Poetico en la Escritura Jeroglifica Maya (2001)
por Kerry Hull.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/00048es/index.html

Saludos,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html
http://www.famsi.org/spanish/

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From micc2 at cox.net  Thu Aug  2 15:11:38 2007
From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:11:38 -0700
Subject: mihtotia, ihtotia, mecehua...to dance?
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.081138.0700.MICC2@COX.NET>

Piali Compaleh,

I am doing more research on the precolumbian dance traditions of Mexico.

My question is this:

For Nahuatl I have found in Molina:

Bailar o dancar nin, itotia.  ni, maceua
Bailador, netotiani, maceuani
baile o danca, netotiliztli, maceualiztli


In Karttunen:

ihto:tia: to dance; to get someone to dance
I did not find an entry for macehua

Based on Frances' analysis, should  Molina's maceua  (macehua)  be 
derived/related  from/to ma:ce:hualli: subject, commoner, indigenous 
person  or mahce:hualli: merit recompense fortune?

In the book "Victors and Vanquished, edited by Stuart B. Schwartz, a 
section of Francisco Lopez de Gomara's Istoria de la Conquista de Mexico 
says  "...The performed the dance called macehualixtli, which means 
"reward through work" (from macehualli, a farmer)."
(page 160)

I am very much interested in what (if any) were the differences between 
the dances known as netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli, and those called 
maceualiztli.

My theory is that one is a more social and popular type of dance, 
maceualiztli, (which also had its sacred aspects) and the other 
netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli is much more focused on religious state 
sponsored dance rituals for the gods.

Anyone have an idea where I can do further research on this question?

Miyec Tlazcamati!


Mario
www.mexicayotl.org




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From campbel at indiana.edu  Thu Aug  2 18:24:40 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:24:40 -0400
Subject: [Aztlan] mihtotia, ihtotia, mecehua...to dance?
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.142440.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Quiubole Mario,

   Fran has "mahce:hua" (p. 130): to obtain or to deserve what one 
desires; to do penance / conseguir o merecer lo deseado (M), hacer 
penitencia (M)...
And, of course, you have already found "ma:ce:hualli" on her p. 127.  
Once you are armed with the formal contrast, the data from Molina fall 
into two clear groups:  one connected with penance and dancing (they 
have glottal stops), and the other connected with commoners (no glottal 
stops).
   Since determining morphological relationship (i.e., identity) 
depends on two main criteria (form and function, or to put it another 
way, sound and meaning), if we have an inexact representation for the 
*sound*, we are at the mercy of our sense of meaning relationships.  
That's a shaky rail to walk on because sounds (really, phonemes) are 
really either/or; semantics is fuzzy and the relationships can be 
invented, no matter how careful we think we are.
   One of my best friends is fray Alonso, but I'll give an example of 
how he once lead me down a garden path (I *don't* believe that his 
deceit was intentional).  When I was first trying to do a morphological 
analysis of all the words in his 1571 Nahuatl-Spanish dictionary 
(sometimes referred to as "the second half"), on folio 8r I found his 
famous entry "atlacatl. marinero, o mal hombre."  Since I was still 
relatively naive about vowel length and glottal stops in those P.K.* 
days, I assumed that the component morphemes were "atl" (water) and 
tlacatl (man, person).  Of course, I realized that "water-man" and "mal 
hombre" were like a bridge that didn't quite meet in the middle, but, 
in order to make my hypothesis fit, I had to assume something on the 
order of a social agreement among Nahuatl speakers that those guys who 
traveled up and down the canals, stopping at various places and then 
going back to their own families, had a reputation like the traveling 
salesmen of the nineteenth century -- they misbehaved a lot when they 
were away from home.  Now we know better:

   marinero     a:tl-tla:catl   (water-person)
   mal hombre   ah-tla:catl     (not-person [human])

...and the redness in my face has long since faded away.

   Below are the examples of "mahce:hua" that I have found in Molina 
and the Florentine Codex.

Iztayohmeh ihuan abrazos,

Joe

*P.K.  Pre-Karttunen


*mahce:hua ***
  ayehua amo aci tlamacehualiztli.  penitencia no entera. 71m1-17
  cammach mocnopil cammachmomacehual.  de donde ati tanto bien?. 71m2-2
  cotonca intlamacehualiztli =i.  parte dela penitencia. 71m2-6
  cotonqui amo tzonquizqui tlamacehualiztli.  penitencia no entera. 71m1-
    17
  huey tlamacehualiztli.  merecimiento grande. 71m1-15
  icotonca ixeliuhca in tlamacehualiztli.  parte dela penitencia. s. la
    satisfacion, o la contricion  {??printing error: sarisfacion for
    satisfacion}. 71m1-16
  imacehualtini.  merecedor de algo o dichoso. 71m2-7
  macehua =ni.  bailar o dan‡ar; baylar o danzar; danzar o bailar. 71m1-
    3
  macehua =ni=onimaceuh.  bailar, o danzar. 71m2-9
  macehua =nic.  conseguir lo desseado; merecer o alcanzar algo. 55m-3
  macehua =nic=onicmaceuh.  conseguir, o merecer lo desseado. 71m2-9
  macehua =nitla.  merecer; robar a saco mano. 71m1-15
  macehua =nitla=onitlamaceuh.  conseguir, o merecer lo desseado o hazer
    penitencia. 71m2-9
  macehua nenenqui =tla.  romero que va en romeria. 55m-17
  macehual =no.  digno ser de algo. 71m1-8
  macehual =no=onomacehualtic.   <lo mesmo es que nolhuil>. 71m2-12
  macehuale.  digna persona; merecedor de mercedes. 55m-6
  macehualiz necuatequiliztli =tla.  baptismo de penitencia. 71m2-21
  macehualiz tlalhuiliztli =tla.  persuasion o mandato assi. 71m2-21
  macehualiznahuatia =nitla.  mandar hazer penitencia. 71m1-14
  macehualiznahuatia =nitla=onitlamacehualiznahuati.  mandar hazer
    penitencia, o persuadir a hazer obras meritorias. 71m2-21
  macehualiznahuatilli =tla.  mandato tal. 71m2-21
  macehualizpa =tla.  cuaresma. 55m-4
  macehualizpan =tla.  cuaresma; tiempo de penitencia o de merecer. s.
    la quaresma; o quatro temporas &c. 71m1-6
  macehualiztenahuatilli =tla.  mando o mandato de penitencia
    {??printing error: dc for de}. 71m1-14
  macehualiztica =tla.  dichosamente; con penitencia; omereciendo. 55m-
    6
  macehualiztilmatli =tla.  saco o sicilio, o otros vestidos para hazer
    penitencia. 71m2-21
  macehualiztlalhuia =nitetla.  mandar hazer penitencia. 71m1-14
  macehualiztlalhuia =nitetla=onitetlamacehualiztlalhui.  exhortar o
    mandar hazer penitencia. 71m2-21
  macehualiztlalhuiliztli =tla.  mando o mandato de penitencia
    {??printing error: dc for de}. 71m1-14
  macehualiztli.  baile o dan‡a; bayle o danza; danza o baile; s;
    areyto. 71m1-3
  macehualiztli =huei tla.  merecimiento grande. 55m-13
  macehualiztli =tla.  merecimiento; penitencia; o merecimiento; o el
    acto de dar sacomano; robo de saco mano; robo de sacomano; saco#mano
    para robar; sacomano para robar; ympetracion. 71m1-15
  macehualoyan.  corro donde baylan; corro donde bailan. 55m-4
  macehualoyan =tla [scribal error: ??estadal is not in m1, estadalla is
    the word referred to: 71m1].  carrera de cauallo. 71m1-4
  macehualoyan =tla.  estadalla carrera o lugar donde corren los hombres
    o cauallos; estadalla; carrera o lugar; donde corren hombres o
    cauallos. 55m-9
  macehualoyan =tlatla.  estadalla carrera o lugar donde corren los
    hombres o cauallos. 55m-9
  macehualpoloa =ninotla.  desmerecer. 71m1-7
  macehualpoloa =ninotla=oninotlamacehualpolo.  desmerecer. 71m2-21
  macehualpololiztli =netla.  desmerecimiento assi. 71m1-7
  macehualti =no.   <lo mesmo es que nolhuil>; alcanzar lo desseado;
    alcan‡ar lo desseado; dichoso ser o bienaueturado; dichoso ser y
    bienauenturado; digno ser de algo; merecer; ympetrar alcan‡ar;
    ympetrar; alcan‡ar. 71m2-12
  macehualti =no=onomacehualtic.  ser dichoso, o alcanzar lo que dessea.
    71m2-9
  macehualtia =nitetla.  dar penitencia. 71m1-6
  macehualtia =nitetla=onitetlamacehualti.  dar a merecer, o dar
    penitencia a otro. 71m2-9
  macehualtic =ono.  dichoso yo, o bienauenturado yo. 71m2-13
  macehualtiliztli.  merecimiento; merecimiento o dicha. 55m-13
  macehualtilo =ni=onimacehualtiloc.  soy hecho digno o merecedor de
    algo. s. sin mi merecimiento. 71m2-9
  macehualtini =i.  merecedor. 55m-13
  macehuanenenqui =tla.  romero que va en romeria. 71m1-19
  macehuani [scribal error: ??printing error: maceuaui for maceuani:
    71m1].  bailador. 71m1-3
  macehuani.  baylador; baylador o danzador; danzante o danzador;
    danzante. 55m-1
  macehuani =tla.  dichoso; ermitano; ermita¤o; penitente; o el que haze
    algunos exercicios para merecer; hermita¤o o beata &c. 71m1-8
  macehuia =ninotla.  merecer. 71m1-15
  macehuia =ninotla=oninotlamacehui.  merecer o alcanzar lo desseado.
    71m2-9
  macehuia =nitetla=onitetlamacehui.  hazer penitencia, o merecer para
    otro. 71m2-21
  macehuia in tetlazotlaliztli =nicno.  ganar amor de otro. 55m-10
  macehuilia =nitetla=onitetlamacehuili.  satisfazer o hazer penitencia
    por otro. 71m2-21
  macehuilia =tetla.  el que haze penitencia por otro. 71m2-18
  maceuh =oqui [scribal error: ??bad split??: 55m].  dotado de gracia.
    55m-6
  maceuh in cualli yectli =oqui.  dotado de gracia. 71m1-9
  maceuhca nemitiliztli =tla.  romeria o vida de penitencia y
    merecimiento. 71m2-21
  maceuhcanenemiliztli =tla.  romeria desta manera. 55m-17
  maceuhqui.  baylador; baylador o danzador; danzante o danzador;
    danzante. 55m-1
  maceuhqui =tla.   <lo mesmo es que tlamacehuani>; ermitano; ermita¤o;
    penitente. 71m2-21
  maceuhtli.  ympetrado. 55m-11
  maceuhtli =tla.  conseguida cosa; conseguida cosa assi; despojos; o
    cosa merecida. 55m-3
  nomacehualti =atle.  desdicha acaecer. 55m-5
  tlamacehualoyan =tla [scribal error: ??estadal is not in m1, estadalla
    is the word referred to: 71m1].  carrera de cauallo. 71m1-4
  tlamacehualoyan =tla.  estadalla, carrera o lugar, donde corren
    hombres o cauallos; la carrera; o lugar donde corren hombres; o
    cauallos. 71m1-11
  tlamacehualtia =nic=onitlamacehualti.  dar aflicion al cuerpo, o
    hazerle hazer algunas cosas de abstinencia y penitencia. 71m2-21
  tlapallotitiaque in intlamacehualiz =qui [scribal error: ??printing
    error: mistaken period after quitlilanitiaque; f17r2 has the whole
    entry intact: 71m1].  dexaron exemplo de virtud y penitencia, s, los
    sanctos. 71m1-8
  tlazotlalizmacehua =nite.  merecer el amor de otro. 55m-13
  tlazotlalizmacehua =nite=onitetlazotlalizmaceuh.  alcanzar o merecer
    el amor de otro. 71m2-20
  tlilanitiaque quitlapallotitiaque inin tlamacehualiz =qui.  auer
    dexado exemplo de hazer penitencia los san#ctos passados. 71m1-3
  xeliuhca in tlamacehualiztli =i.  parte dela penitencia. 71m2-8
  cemmaceuh , qui-.  . b.6 f.3
  cenmacehualtia , qui-.  . b.6 f.6
  cenmaceuh , tech-.  ; it favored us. b.6 f.16
  cenmahceuh , tech-.  . b.6 f.1
  etzalmacehua.  they dance the etzalli dance. b.2 f.4
  etzalmacehualiztli.  etzalli dance. b.2 f.4
  etzalmacehualoya.  the dance of maize and beans was danced; there was
    begging of maize and beans. b.2 f.11
  etzalmaceuhque.  . b.7 f.2
  huellamacehua.  . b.4 f.1
  huellamacehua , mo-.  he does his penances well. b.4 f.7
  huellamacehua , tla-.  he performs his penance well. b.4 f.4
  huellamacehua.  he does penance diligently; he performs his penance
    well. b.4 f.6
  huellamacehuaz.  ; he will become very deserving. b.4 f.10
  imahcehualtiz.  . b.4 f.6
  macehhuia , quitla-.  he does a penance for him. b.1 f.1
  macehua.  . b.8 f.3
  macehua , ontla-.  he does penance; she does penances; they perform
    penances. b.4 f.3
  macehua , qui-.  he merits it, he deserves it; she merits it; she
    deserves it; they gain it as a reward. b.6 f.6
  macehua , tic-.  you deserve it, you merit it. b.6 f.9
  macehua , tla-.  ; he does penance; he gains merit; he performs
    penance; he performs a penance; she does penance; they do penance;
    they do penances; they perform penance. b.3 f.4
  macehua , xitla-.  perform penances. b.5 f.1
  macehua.  he dances. b.10 f.2
  macehual , ano-.  it is not my merit. b.6 f.7
  macehual , i-.  his desert; his merit; his lot; his reward. b.4 f.6
  macehual , in-.  ; their merit; their desert. b.4 f.10
  macehual , mo-.  your desert; your merit. b.5 f.1
  macehual , no-.  my desert; my merit. b.1 f.5
  macehual , oi-.  his merit. b.6 f.19
  macehual , te-.  one's reward. b.5 f.2
  macehual , ti-.  you are the desert, you are the merit. b.6 f.15
  macehual , tito-.  you are our merit. b.6 f.14
  macehual , to-.  our desert; our merit. b.1 f.5
  macehual yez , mo-.  it will be your merit. b.9 f.3
  macehuale.  ; one who has merit; a deserving person. b.4 f.6
  macehualeque.  those who have merit. b.6 f.4
  macehualiz , i-.  his dance. b.4 f.3
  macehualiz , intla-.  their penance; their penitence. b.3 f.1
  macehualizcali , tla-.  house of penance. b.3 f.3
  macehualiztica , itla-.  by his penance, by means of his penance. b.4
    f.5
  macehualiztica , tla-.  by doing penance. b.6 f.9
  macehualiztica.  with penance, by means of penance. b.4 f.5
  macehualiztlalhuiloya , te-.  a dance was arranged. b.4 f.3
  macehualiztli , tla-.  penance; dance; performance of penance. b.3
    f.1
  macehualiztli.  dance. b.8 f.3
  macehuallatquitl.  properties which are used in the dance. b.8 f.3
  macehualli.  desert, merit. b.6 f.5
  macehualo , tla-.  people do penance; people perform penance. b.2 f.3
  macehualo.  it is received as merit; it is merited; there is dancing;
    there is a procession. b.6 f.4
  macehualoc.  it was merited. b.12 f.5
  macehualoya , tla-.  there was performing of penance. b.2 f.12
  macehualoyan , tla-.  place of penitence. b.6 f.16
  macehualti , amo-.  . b.10 f.12
  macehualti , i-.  . b.4 f.9
  macehualti , no-.  I deserve, I merit. b.6 f.4
  macehualti , oqui-.  . b.5 f.1
  macehualti , ti-.  ; we merit; we achieve our merit; you gain merit.
    b.6 f.5
  macehualtia , mitz-.  . b.6 f.5
  macehualtia , motla-.  . b.3 f.4
  macehualtia , qui-.  ; he gives it to him as his merit. b.5 f.1
  macehualtia , quite-.  ; he gives it to people as merit. b.6 f.7
  macehualtia , quitla-.  . b.6 f.10
  macehualtia , tetla-.  . b.6 f.7
  macehualtiaya , quite-.  he gave it to people as their merit, as their
    lot; it awarded it to someone. b.1 f.2
  macehualtic , omo-.  . b.6 f.14
  macehualtic , on-.  . b.8 f.5
  macehualtic , oti-.  you gained your merit. b.6 f.9
  macehualtic , oto-.  . b.6 f.16
  macehualtilia , amechmo-.  he [H.] makes it your [pl.] birthright.
    b.10 f.12
  macehualtiliztli , tetla-.  imposed penance. b.3 f.4
  macehualtiz , amo-.  . b.6 f.7
  macehualtiz , i-.  . b.4 f.10
  macehualtiz , qui-.  it will award him. b.5 f.1
  macehualtiz , tito-.  we will deserve, we will merit. b.6 f.15
  macehualtiz , to-.  ; it will be our reward; we shall merit it; we
    will merit; we shall merit; we shall deserve. b.6 f.5
  macehualtiz.  he will merit. b.11 f.3
  macehualtiznequi , to-.  we want to merit; we want to deserve. b.6
    f.12
  macehuani , tla-.  one who performs penances; one who does penance.
    b.4 f.1
  macehuato , ontla-.  they went to do penance. b.5 f.1
  macehuato , ooanqui-.  you [pl.] went to merit it. b.9 f.1
  macehuato , titla-.  . b.6 f.17
  macehuaya.  . b.9 f.7
  macehuaya , i-.  his dance. b.8 f.2
  macehuaya , intla-.  at the time of their penance. b.2 f.11
  macehuaya , ontla-.  they did penance. b.2 f.11
  macehuaya , qui-.  he merited it; they deserved it. b.4 f.3
  macehuaya , tla-.  he performed penances; he did penances; he
    performed penance; she performed penances; she did penance; they
    performed penance; they performed penances; they did penance. b.1
    f.4
  macehuaya.  they danced; they performed penances. b.8 f.2
  macehuayan , itla-.  his place of doing penance. b.2 f.11
  macehuaz , qui-.  ; he will merit it. b.6 f.1
  macehuaz , ti-.  . b.6 f.10
  macehuaz , titla-.  you will do penance. b.1 f.1
  macehuaz , tla-.  he will perform penance; he will dance. b.2 f.14
  macehuaz.  he will dance. b.8 f.2
  macehui , oquimo-.  he merited it. b.2 f.1
  macehui , oticmo-.  you [H.] merited it; you merited it. b.5 f.1
  macehui , quimo-.  (may) he deserve it, he merit it. b.6 f.2
  macehuia , quimo-.  ; he merits it; she merits it. b.6 f.7
  macehuiac , quimo-.  she merited it. b.4 f.3
  macehuiaya , motla-.  they gained his favor. b.12 f.4
  macehuiaya , quimo-.  he merited it; they merited it; . b.4 f.1
  macehuili , oticmo-.  you rewarded him. b.6 f.1
  macehuitihui , quin-.  . b.7 f.2
  macehuitzinoa , amechmo-.  he [H.] gives you [pl.] merit. b.6 f.16
  macehuiz , conmo-.  he will gain it as his merit. b.6 f.2
  macehuizque , ticto-.  we shall merit it. b.6 f.16
  maceuh , mo-.  it was merited. b.12 f.5
  maceuh , nic-.  I merited it. b.2 f.14
  maceuh , on-.  he danced. b.1 f.2
  maceuh , ontla-.  he performed penance. b.8 f.4
  maceuh , otic-.  you merited it. b.1 f.5
  maceuh , otla-.  he did penance. b.1 f.1
  maceuh , otontla-.  you did penance. b.6 f.14
  maceuh , qui-.  he deserved it. b.11 f.6
  maceuh , tla-.  . b.7 f.1
  maceuh , tontla-.  you did penance. b.6 f.14
  maceuhcahuan , itla-.  its devout ones. b.8 f.5
  maceuhque , otic-.  we merited it. b.9 f.1
  maceuhque , otla-.  they performed penances. b.7 f.1
  maceuhque , tla-.  ; devout people; people who do penance; penitents;
    they performed penance; they deserved. b.2 f.14
  maceuhqui , tla-.  offering priest; penitent. b.2 f.11
  maceuhqui.  dancer. b.6 f.10
  maceuhtinenca , ontla-.  they had gone along performing penances. b.7
    f.1
  maceuhtiya , hualla-.  they go performing penances. b.9 f.3
  maceuhtoz , titla-.  you will be doing penance. b.6 f.14
  mahcehua , qui-.  he achieves it; he gains it as his desert. b.8 f.5
  mahcehua , tla-.  they perform penance. b.4 f.7
  mahcehual , i-.  her desert, her merit; his birthright; his desert;
    his lot; his merit; his reward. b.4 f.3
  mahcehual , in-.  their merit. b.4 f.4
  mahcehual , mo-.  ; your desert; your merit; your reward. b.6 f.6
  mahcehual , te-.  someone's reward. b.4 f.4
  mahcehual , to-.  our reward. b.4 f.7
  mahcehualcuicanime.  singer-dancers. b.8 f.3
  mahcehuale.  ; one who deserves; one who has merit; person of merit.
    b.4 f.1
  mahcehualiztli.  act of dancing; dancing. b.4 f.3
  mahcehuallatqui , i-.  his dancing array. b.4 f.3
  mahcehuallatquitl.  dance gear; property which used in dance. b.9 f.7
  mahcehualle.  one who has merit. b.6 f.1
  mahcehualli.  ; desert; merit; gift; recompense. b.4 f.7
  mahcehualmacaya , quitla-.  . b.8 f.5
  mahcehualo.  ; there is dancing. b.4 f.3
  mahcehualtic , oto-.  . b.5 f.1
  mahcehualtitiuh , i-.  . b.4 f.4
  mahcehualtiz , i-.  it will be his reward. b.4 f.9
  mahcehualtiz , mitz-.  he will give it to you as your merit. b.4 f.7
  mahcehuaya , qui-.  ; they merited it. b.4 f.10
  mahcehuaz.  he will dance. b.8 f.3
  mahcehui , oquimo-.  . b.4 f.7
  mahcehuiaya , quimo-.  . b.4 f.1
  mahceuh , ontla-.  he merited. b.8 f.5
  mahceuh , otla-.  he performed the penances. b.4 f.6
  mamacehua , toco[n]-.  you deserve it. b.6 f.10
  mamacehua.  they dance repeatedly. b.2 f.4
  mamacehuaya.  they danced repeatedly. b.2 f.4
  mamahcehua.  he dances continuously. b.10 f.2
  tlalmacehuaco.  . b.8 f.1
  tlalmacehualoco.  there is granting of land. b.10 f.12
  tlalmacehuaquihui.  they come to subjugate the land. b.8 f.1
  tlalmaceuhque.  . b.10 f.11
  tlamacehualiztica , in-.  by their penance. b.4 f.8
  tlamacehuayan , in-.  their place of doing penance. b.5 f.1


> For Nahuatl I have found in Molina:
>
> Bailar o dancar nin, itotia.  ni, maceua
> Bailador, netotiani, maceuani
> baile o danca, netotiliztli, maceualiztli
>
>
> In Karttunen:
>
> ihto:tia: to dance; to get someone to dance
> I did not find an entry for macehua
>
> Based on Frances' analysis, should  Molina's maceua  (macehua)  be
> derived/related  from/to ma:ce:hualli: subject, commoner, indigenous
> person  or mahce:hualli: merit recompense fortune?
>
> In the book "Victors and Vanquished, edited by Stuart B. Schwartz, a
> section of Francisco Lopez de Gomara's Istoria de la Conquista de
> Mexico says  "...The performed the dance called macehualixtli, which
> means "reward through work" (from macehualli, a farmer)."
> (page 160)
>
> I am very much interested in what (if any) were the differences
> between the dances known as netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli, and those
> called maceualiztli.
>
> My theory is that one is a more social and popular type of dance,
> maceualiztli, (which also had its sacred aspects) and the other
> netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli is much more focused on religious state
> sponsored dance rituals for the gods.
>
> Anyone have an idea where I can do further research on this question?
>
> Miyec Tlazcamati!
>
>
> Mario
> www.mexicayotl.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>




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From campbel at indiana.edu  Thu Aug  2 18:33:25 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:33:25 -0400
Subject: [Aztlan] mihtotia, ihtotia, mecehua...to dance?
In-Reply-To: <46B1F42A.7070301@cox.net>
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.143325.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Mariohtzin,

   Oniquilcauh...

For the sake of contrast, here are the examples of ihto:tia: :

Joe

*ihto:tia: ***
  cihuanetotiliztli.  danza assi; danza de mugeres. 55m-4
  itotia =cihua mo.  danzar las mugeres. 55m-4
  itotia =nin.  bailar o dan‡ar; baylar o danzar; danzar o bailar. 71m1-
    3
  itotia =nin=oninitoti.  bailar, o danzar. 71m2-8
  itotia =nite.  hazer baylar a otro. 71m1-12
  itotia =nite=oniteitoti.  hazer bailar a otro. 71m2-8
  itotiani =mo.  bailador; baylador; danzante o danzador; danzante. 71m1-
    3
  itotiani =te.  hazedor tal. 71m1-12
  itotiliznemachtiloyan =ne.  escuela de danzar. 71m1-11
  itotiliztli =ne.  baile o dan‡a; baile; o danza; bayle o danza; danza
    o baile; s; areyto. 71m1-3
  itotiloyan =ne.  corro donde baylan; corro donde bailan; corro; o
    lugar donde bailan. 55m-4
  itotiqui =mo.  danzante o danzador; danzante. 55m-4
  itotiqui =te.  hazedor tal. 71m1-12
  macpalitoti =te.  encantador assi; encantador desta manera; ladron que
    hurta y roba con encantamiento o embaimiento. 55m-7
  macpalitotia =nite.  encantar para hurtar. 55m-7
  macpalitotia =nite=onitemacpalitoti.  encantar a otro para le robar la
    hazienda. 71m2-9
  macpalitotiani =te.  ladron que hurta y roba con encantamiento o
    embaimiento. 71m2-16
  macpalitotiliztli =te.  encantamiento tal; latrocinio o robo desta
    manera. 55m-7
  macpalitotilli =tla.  encantado. 55m-7
  macpalitotilli =tla [scribal error: ??printing error: tlamacpalitotili
    for tlamacpalitotilli; 1555 has tlamacpalitotilli: 71m1].
    encantado. 71m1-9
  netotilizmachtiloyan =ne.  escuela de dan‡ar; escuela donde ense¤an a
    danzar. 55m-8
  quechitotia =nino.  collear. 55m-3
  quechitotia =nino=oninoquechitot [scribal error: ??printing error in
    preterit: oninoquechitot for oninoquechitoti: 71m2].  collear, o
    menear la cabeza de aca para alla. 71m2-15
  tlamacpalitotilli.  encantado y adormecido, para ser robado delos
    encantadores. 71m2-21
  cihuaitotia , mo-.  they dance in the fashion of women. b.2 f.3
  ihtotia , m[o]-.  he dances; they dance. b.2 f.3
  ihtotiaya , m[o]-.  they danced. b.2 f.2
  ihtotihtinemi , m[o]-.  they go dancing. b.9 f.5
  [i]htotiloya , ne-.  there was dancing. b.2 f.2
  ihtotinemi , m[o]-.  they go dancing. b.4 f.8
  ihtotiticac , m[o]-.  he stands dancing. b.2 f.1
  ihtotitinemizque , m[o]-.  they will go about dancing. b.9 f.4
  ihtotiz , m[o]-.  he will dance. b.9 f.7
  ihtotiz , onm[o]-.  he will dance. b.4 f.3
  ihtotizque , m[o]-.  they will dance. b.9 f.3
  iihtotitinemi , m[o]-.  they go about dancing. b.9 f.4
  itoti , omm[o]-.  . b.1 f.2
  itoti , om[o]-.  he danced. b.1 f.2
  itotia , hualm[o]-.  they dance. b.9 f.1
  itotia , m[o]-.  he dances; she dances; they dance. b.1 f.2
  itotia , qu-.  he dances it, he juggles it; she twirls it; they make
    her dance; they make him dance. b.8 f.2
  itotia , quimon-.  they dandle them. b.2 f.8
  itotia , te-.  he has people dance; he makes people dance; he makes
    one dance. b.4 f.4
  [i]totia , tla-.  he arranges a dance. b.1 f.2
  itotia , xom[o]-.  dance. b.8 f.1
  itotiani , m[o]-.  dancer. b.4 f.3
  itotiaya , hualm[o]-.  he came forth to dance; they danced. b.2 f.5
  itotiaya , m[o]-.  he danced; she danced; they danced. b.1 f.2
  itotiaya , qu-.  he made it dance; he made him dance. b.3 f.2
  itotiaya , quim-.  they had them dance, they made them dance. b.2
    f.13
  itotiayan , ine-.  his dancing place. b.6 f.19
  itotihui , m[o]-.  they go dancing. b.2 f.1
  itotilique , oquimon-.  they dandled them. b.2 f.8
  [i]totiliz , ine-.  his dance. b.9 f.4
  [i]totiliztli , ne-.  dance, dancing. b.2 f.2
  [i]totilo , ne-.  there is dancing, people dance. b.2 f.2
  [i]totiloc , onne-.  there was dancing, people danced. b.2 f.12
  [i]totiloni , ne-.  dance gear. b.9 f.7
  [i]totiloya , ne-.  there was dancing, people danced. b.1 f.5
  [i]totiloyan , ne-.  place for dancing. b.2 f.12
  [i]totiloz , ne-.  there will be dancing; people are to dance. b.4
    f.12
  itotique , omm[o]-.  they danced. b.2 f.10
  itotitihui , m[o]-.  they go dancing. b.2 f.5
  itotitihui , qu-.  they go dancing. b.2 f.3
  itotitihuitz , m[o]-.  he comes dancing. b.3 f.2
  itotitihuitze , m[o]-.  they come dancing. b.2 f.1
  itotitimani , qu-.  they are dancing. b.2 f.3
  itotitinemi , m[o]-.  he goes dancing; they go dancing; they continue
    dancing. b.2 f.7
  itotitiuh , hualm[o]-.  he goes dancing. b.2 f.2
  itotitiuh , m[o]-.  he goes dancing; they go dancing. b.1 f.2
  itotiz , qu-.  he will dance it; he will have him dance. b.1 f.2
  itotiz , te-.  he will have someone dance; he will dance with people.
    b.4 f.9
  [i]totiz , titla-.  you will dance. b.1 f.1
  [i]totiz , tla-.  he will dance with people. b.1 f.2
  itotizque , m[o]-.  they will dance. b.8 f.3
  itotizque , onm[o]-.  they will dance. b.4 f.11
  ittotiaya , m[o]-.  they danced. b.2 f.11
  ittotiliztli , te-.  act of dancing with someone. b.4 f.11
  macpalitoti.  one who dances with a dead woman's forearm. b.10 f.2
  macpalitotia , te-.  he dances with [a dead woman's] forearm. b.10
    f.2
  macpalitotique , tema-.  . b.4 f.10
  maitotitihui , mo-.  they go dancing with arm movements. b.2 f.6
  malitotia , mo-.  they dance the captives' dance. b.2 f.1
  malitotiaya , mo-.  he danced the captives' dance. b.2 f.1
  malitotitihui , mo-.  they go dancing with the captives. b.2 f.6
  malitotitihuitz , mo-.  . b.3 f.2
  mamacpalitotia , te-.  he dances with an arm (taken from a woman dead
    in first childbed). b.4 f.10
  mamacpalitotique , te-.  . b.6 f.13
  momochiitotia , mo-.  they dance the popcorn dance. b.2 f.3
  tecuitotia , mo-.  they dance the lordly dance. b.2 f.10
  tecuitotiaya , mo-.  he danced a princely dance; they danced the
    lordly dance. b.1 f.2
  tecuitotilo , ne-.  there is lordly dancing. b.2 f.10
  temacpalitoti.  one who dances with a dead woman's forearm. b.10 f.2
  temamacpalitotique.  ; they danced with a forearm (of a dead woman).
    b.4 f.10
  teoittotiloya.  there was godly dancing. b.2 f.11
  tlaquitotiani , mo-.  one who urges dancers on. b.4 f.3
  tzontecomaitotia , mo-.  they dance with severed heads. b.2 f.1





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From susana at losrancheros.org  Thu Aug  2 18:54:28 2007
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:54:28 +0200
Subject: mihtotia, ihtotia, mecehua...to dance?
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.205428.0200.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Mario,
Hace tiempo dì unos seminarios sobre las danzas prehispanicas de Mexico,
incluyendo la Netoteliztli. Te adjunto un archivo en Word con el texto de
esta parte de mi conferencia.
La informacion la saque del libro "Historia General del Arte Mexicano",
Danzas y Bailes Populares, tomo I, de Electra L. Mompradé y Tonatiuh
Gutiérrez - Editorial Hermes, 1981.

Espero que te sirva.

Susana Moraleda


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "micc2" <micc2 at cox.net>
To: <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>; <Aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: [Nahuat-l] mihtotia, ihtotia, mecehua...to dance?


> Piali Compaleh,
>
> I am doing more research on the precolumbian dance traditions of Mexico.
>
> My question is this:
>
> For Nahuatl I have found in Molina:
>
> Bailar o dancar nin, itotia.  ni, maceua
> Bailador, netotiani, maceuani
> baile o danca, netotiliztli, maceualiztli
>
>
> In Karttunen:
>
> ihto:tia: to dance; to get someone to dance
> I did not find an entry for macehua
>
> Based on Frances' analysis, should  Molina's maceua  (macehua)  be
> derived/related  from/to ma:ce:hualli: subject, commoner, indigenous
> person  or mahce:hualli: merit recompense fortune?
>
> In the book "Victors and Vanquished, edited by Stuart B. Schwartz, a
> section of Francisco Lopez de Gomara's Istoria de la Conquista de Mexico
> says  "...The performed the dance called macehualixtli, which means
> "reward through work" (from macehualli, a farmer)."
> (page 160)
>
> I am very much interested in what (if any) were the differences between
> the dances known as netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli, and those called
> maceualiztli.
>
> My theory is that one is a more social and popular type of dance,
> maceualiztli, (which also had its sacred aspects) and the other
> netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli is much more focused on religious state
> sponsored dance rituals for the gods.
>
> Anyone have an idea where I can do further research on this question?
>
> Miyec Tlazcamati!
>
>
> Mario
> www.mexicayotl.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
> __________ NOD32 2433 (20070802) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Fri Aug  3 04:37:06 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 21:37:06 -0700
Subject: Flores y Nombres
In-Reply-To: <46B1D04C.1080909@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.213706.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

On Aug 2, 2007, at 5:38 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/nahuat-l.html
> Alla se puede hacer click en "Search the archives"
> Se encuentra 12 ocasiones cuando esta palabra ocurrio en la lista.
Eh, bien... una cosa aprendida.
>
> Significa cuitlahuac "lugar de excremento"
Compost Heap???
>
> El excremento era una cosa con gran valor para los Nahua.  Era el  
> abono necesario para la productividad tremenda de los chinampas.   
> Tenia relaciones linguisticas con el oro y la plata (coztic  
> teocuitlatl e iztac teocuitlatl)
¡Hah!  Entonces, "Cuitlahuac era "Rico MacPato?"  perdon el humor  
algo negro é infantil.  Pero si quisiera dar sentido al significado  
de la palabra, y el nombre, seria, "Hombre de la Tierra Bondadosa" o,  
tal vez "Hombre de lo fertil."  ultimamente necesito escribirlo en  
ingles para el libro que estoy haciendo en cuadro sinóptico  
ahorita... Rich man, Man of fertility, RichlandMan...

Gracias por la ayuda.  Esto me es mucho mas claro que lo que he  
hallado hasta hoy.
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From macuil2 at msn.com  Sat Aug  4 01:09:31 2007
From: macuil2 at msn.com (Raul macuil martinez)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 03:09:31 +0200
Subject: Conferencia Los Codices Techialoyan en Hidalgo
Message-ID: <SAT.4.AUG.2007.030931.0200.MACUIL2@MSN.COM>

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From macuil2 at msn.com  Fri Aug  3 19:32:56 2007
From: macuil2 at msn.com (Raul macuil martinez)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:32:56 +0200
Subject: Confencia: Los codices Techialoyan de Hidalgo
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20051213155619.04222e20@schwallr.email.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.AUG.2007.213256.0200.MACUIL2@MSN.COM>

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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Sun Aug  5 07:38:49 2007
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 08:38:49 +0100
Subject: Flores y Nombres
In-Reply-To: <46B1D04C.1080909@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.AUG.2007.083849.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu> wrote:

> Significa cuitlahuac "lugar de excremento"
 
> El excremento era una cosa con gran valor para los Nahua.  Era el
> abono 
> necesario para la productividad tremenda de los chinampas.  Tenia 
> relaciones linguisticas con el oro y la plata (coztic teocuitlatl e 
> iztac teocuitlatl)

But Nahuatl "cuitlatl" can alao mean "tail" (and that is likely its
original meaning: excrement attracts euphemisms and and slang names in
many languages.

Citlalyani.

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Aug  8 12:17:03 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 08:17:03 -0400
Subject: Ahuitzotl's tomb
Message-ID: <WED.8.AUG.2007.081703.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

I don't know if everyone has seen this article on the discovery of what 
they believe to be Ahuitzotl's tomb:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_aztec_tomb;_ylt=AkY5v2CpFsLTphlrIBJ1Zjys0NUE

-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Aug  8 12:58:01 2007
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 08:58:01 -0400
Subject: Ahuitzotl's tomb
In-Reply-To: <46B9B43F.9000400@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.AUG.2007.085801.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>:

>
> I don't know if everyone has seen this article on the discovery of
> what they believe to be Ahuitzotl's tomb:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_aztec_tomb;_ylt=AkY5v2CpFsLTphlrIBJ1Zjys0NUE

Quemetzin, Palitzin.

I was particularly enchanted by the "ah-WEE-zoh-tuhl" and 
"tlahl-tay-KOO-tlee" pronunciation guides. :-)


Michael



>
> --
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Wed Aug  8 13:22:23 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 06:22:23 -0700
Subject: Ahuitzotl's tomb
In-Reply-To: <46B9B43F.9000400@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.AUG.2007.062223.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Oh, yeah!  I'm just dissappointed since it is unlikely codices  
survive in those conditions.  But it is very exciting.  Is anybody on  
the dig maintaining a blog?  I'd like to be a fly on the wall there.


On Aug 8, 2007, at 5:17 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:

>
> I don't know if everyone has seen this article on the discovery of  
> what they believe to be Ahuitzotl's tomb:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/ 
> mexico_aztec_tomb;_ylt=AkY5v2CpFsLTphlrIBJ1Zjys0NUE
>
> -- 
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com  Wed Aug  8 16:23:40 2007
From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 17:23:40 +0100
Subject: Ahuitzotl's tomb
In-Reply-To: <46B9B43F.9000400@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.AUG.2007.172340.0100.IAN.MURSELL@BTINTERNET.COM>

In case it's of interest, following a fascinating lecture by Dr. Leonardo
López Lujan at the British Museum last month, we have uploaded an
illustrated feature on the new discovery here -

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?&one=azt&two=aaa&id=286&typ=reg

We're currently preparing a similar article on the earlier discovery (in
2005) of the Aztec stone monolith in the shape of a giant barrel cactus
found by Leonardo and colleagues under a manhole cover in front of the
Librería Porrúa.

Good wishes,

Ian

Ian Mursell
Director
Mexicolore
28 Warriner Gardens
London SW11 4EB, U.K.
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
www.aztecs.org
Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
info at mexicolore.co.uk

1980-2005: 25 years of bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and
museums throughout England.  Team visits, online teaching resources and
services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and much more - all
from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team' (British Museum
Education Service)



> 
> I don't know if everyone has seen this article on the discovery of what
> they believe to be Ahuitzotl's tomb:
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_aztec_tomb;_ylt=A
> kY5v2CpFsLTphlrIBJ1Zjys0NUE


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From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sat Aug 18 16:53:21 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 09:53:21 -0700
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools i n
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <C2DFAC9C.10986%Ian.Mursell@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.095321.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has discussed
Náhuatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's Public Schools.

I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that decree. I
truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to start all
those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes effective.
English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas there were
very few instructors of English and those available did not really speak
English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the number of
people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the new
measure for Náhuatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful to dream,
but not just in paper. What do you all think?

Sincerely,

Maria Bolivar



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From idiez at mac.com  Sat Aug 18 16:59:21 2007
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:59:21 -0500
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public scho ols in
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <A919F2B74B2E421EB95F6588E019700C@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.115921.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

María,
	It's just politics. The decree started on paper and it will end there.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
México
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx
www.macehualli.org



On Aug 18, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:

> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has  
> discussed
> Náhuatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's Public  
> Schools.
>
> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that  
> decree. I
> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to  
> start all
> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes  
> effective.
> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas  
> there were
> very few instructors of English and those available did not really  
> speak
> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the number of
> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the new
> measure for Náhuatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful  
> to dream,
> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Maria Bolivar
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl







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From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sat Aug 18 17:32:15 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:32:15 -0700
Subject: N=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1huatl?= mandatory  in public schools in
 Mexico Cit y
In-Reply-To: <5E77FDBE-A992-4344-852F-9D17AD6A1167@mac.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.103215.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

Well it is wonderful that Marcelo Ebrard thinks about that. But it might just be a way to fill the Zocalo with more people. I would have loved to see other measures coupled with that one. Like a School of Náhuatl in the newly created Universidad Autónoma de la Ciudad de México or the creation of communitary schools to prepare speakers of Náhuatl like John does, to participate in courses to form professors. But none of that has been going on. At UNAM Náhuatl is not even part of the Facultad de Filosofía y Letras and our intellectuals would not even dream of relinquishing some of their lines to have Náhuatl figure in their curricula.

 

So as wonderful as it is that Marcelo can think beyond his predecessors, I find the measure superficial and “impossible”.

 

I taught for many years Civismo, a mandatory subject in all schools, public and private… My students went to class with an attitude. The program, imposed by the Secretaría de Educación Pública was so boring even Political Scientists, Historians  and/or Social Scientists considered dreadful to teach it. So, I cannot begin to imagine how they will implement a mandatory Náhuatl Program. My experience in California is that when “speaking” Spanish was mandatory for instructors, vía the BCLAD, corruption erupted everywhere and instructors who did not Speak Spanish where trained to jump in, with only a test as requirement.

 

It will be interested to see how this evolves. We are talking about a school population of 8 million?

 

Maria Bolívar

 

 

  _____  

From: John Sullivan, Ph.D. [mailto:idiez at mac.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:59 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar��

            It's just politics. The decree started on paper and it will end there.

John

 

John Sullivan, Ph.D.

Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua

Universidad Aut󮯭a de Zacatecas

Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci󮠅tnol󧩣a de Zacatecas, A.C.

Tacuba 152, int. 47

Centro Hist󲩣o

Zacatecas, Zac. 98000

M鸩co

Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415

Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416

Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048

Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854

idiez at mac.com

www.idiez.org.mx

www.macehualli.org

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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Sat Aug 18 18:19:56 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:19:56 -0700
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public scho ols in
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <A919F2B74B2E421EB95F6588E019700C@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.111956.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Having grow up in Mexico and been in Mexican public schools, I  
shudder to think about the logistics of the problem.  The teachers  
would be one step ahead of the students all the way.
I was fully spanish/english bilingual and two of my Secundaria  
teachers were ok with letting me read in class and letting them get  
on with trying to pound the language (very inexpertly) into my  
classmates heads... one decided my brother and I had to perform all  
the tasks she gave the class; I still remember the day she said,  
"Mouse; mice, blouse...   "  That one stalemated in La Directora's  
office.  Now think of the difference linguistically between spanish  
and nahuatl as opposed to spanish and english (both indo-european  
based if broadly seperated.).
One thing I think we will see, however is a much larger support from  
the population for learning nahuatl.  English and french and german  
were very resented as signs of Mexico's subordination on the  
international scene and all my classmates gladly forgot every bit  
they learned as fast as possible.  There is hope that this would not  
be the feeling about nahuatl; for the past 20 years "hablar indio"  
has been much less pejorative than it was in my growing up years.


On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:

> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has  
> discussed
> Náhuatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's Public  
> Schools.
>
> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that  
> decree. I
> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to  
> start all
> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes  
> effective.
> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas  
> there were
> very few instructors of English and those available did not really  
> speak
> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the number of
> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the new
> measure for Náhuatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful  
> to dream,
> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Maria Bolivar
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sat Aug 18 19:03:34 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:03:34 -0700
Subject: N=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1huatl?= mandatory  in public schools in
 Mexico Cit y
In-Reply-To: <48682CF4D6C3470090DCC9AF6486FF38@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.120334.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

I know Náhuatl is taught here and there. I am not questioning that. I am amazed at the sudden need arising from a decree that involves several million people. Ebrard has no influence whatsoever over what is taught at UNAM or UAM, but the Universidad Autónoma del Distrito Federal was sold to people on the pretense it was going to be an innovative project geared towards filling voids elitist education had previously neglected. Yet I don’t see those innovative programs. In Literature they have mimicked, to the extreme, the UNAM curriculum. I see the UACM as yet another employment unit to accommodate the friends of the PRD.

 

As for the interest in Náhuatl coming from Anthropologists it has always been the case. ENA has taught languages through satellite programs in Morelos and other places and validated the study of several languages. There is a true revival of those languages today, more than ever. It only makes me sad it was never the interest of my colleagues in Literature or Critical Theory and/or Cultural Studies. 

 

In UNAM Linguistics is not separate from Filosofía and Letras as it is in the UC system (University of California) Yet in the UC or in UNAM there isn’t a program fully devoted to Mesoamerican Languages. Those professors engaging in research of those languages still do so on their own and with lots of monetary restrictions.

 

I am truly concerned about the reception of Náhuatl once it becomes a mandatory subject. Already many in Mexico City were questioning the measure claiming it was more important to learn how to use computers than Náhuatl… and as I said before, resistance to English has been the case, even though English has been mandatory since the times of Vasconcelos. People dread the mandatory subjects, that is why I mentioned Civismo. Just imagine how having instructors improvised in the subject will contribute to such a resistance. The problem will deepen when all those students realize the university does not have a structure welcoming Náhuatl as a main subject, but rather a secondary one, for which studying is going to be more of a calvary than a smooth project.

 

My final point. To be sincere, any project like this has to follow a realistic time frame. In 2008-2009, that is next year, all of the sudden, all schools will have to include Náhuatl. If that is not “de a plumazo”, what is?

 

Maria Bolivar

 

  _____  

From: Karen Dakin [mailto:dakin at servidor.unam.mx] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:51 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: Karen Dakin
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

María Bolivar -- 

Just to provide you with more accurate information, since sometimes it is hard to find out what is taught where at the UNAM.  Nahuatl, basically as used in documents,  is taught at the licenciatura level in the FFL, in the History curriculum, but also includes students from other areas, and it is a central part of the graduate programs in Estudios Mesoamericanos (along with Mayan and colonial Zapotec and periodically Tojolabal), Antropología, and also included for those interested in the graduate program in Lingüísitica. A course aimed more at spoken varieties is also given in Antropologicas. There are also students who work on projects involving teaching Nahuatl in the Applied Linguistics program.  

 

Karen Dakin

 

 

 

  _____  

From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Maria Bolivar
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:32 AM
To: 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Well it is wonderful that Marcelo Ebrard thinks about that. But it might just be a way to fill the Zocalo with more people. I would have loved to see other measures coupled with that one. Like a School of Náhuatl in the newly created Universidad Autónoma de la Ciudad de México or the creation of communitary schools to prepare speakers of Náhuatl like John does, to participate in courses to form professors. But none of that has been going on. At UNAM Náhuatl is not even part of the Facultad de Filosofía y Letras and our intellectuals would not even dream of relinquishing some of their lines to have Náhuatl figure in their curricula.

 

So as wonderful as it is that Marcelo can think beyond his predecessors, I find the measure superficial and “impossible”.

 

I taught for many years Civismo, a mandatory subject in all schools, public and private… My students went to class with an attitude. The program, imposed by the Secretaría de Educación Pública was so boring even Political Scientists, Historians  and/or Social Scientists considered dreadful to teach it. So, I cannot begin to imagine how they will implement a mandatory Náhuatl Program. My experience in California is that when “speaking” Spanish was mandatory for instructors, vía the BCLAD, corruption erupted everywhere and instructors who did not Speak Spanish where trained to jump in, with only a test as requirement.

 

It will be interested to see how this evolves. We are talking about a school population of 8 million?

 

Maria Bolívar

 

 

  _____  

From: John Sullivan, Ph.D. [mailto:idiez at mac.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:59 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar��

            It's just politics. The decree started on paper and it will end there.

John

 

John Sullivan, Ph.D.

Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua

Universidad Aut󮯭a de Zacatecas

Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci󮠅tnol󧩣a de Zacatecas, A.C.

Tacuba 152, int. 47

Centro Hist󲩣o

Zacatecas, Zac. 98000

M鸩co

Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415

Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416

Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048

Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854

idiez at mac.com

www.idiez.org.mx

www.macehualli.org

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From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sat Aug 18 19:08:26 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:08:26 -0700
Subject: N=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1huatl?= mandatory  in public schools in
 Mexico Cit y
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.120826.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

By the way, the measure is to be implemented in the public schools of basic instruction, las prepas and secundarias. I am not sure they mean elementary schools too. We are talking about millions of students with the need for thousands of teachers. We could start an exercise of counting how many would be ready to start teaching basic Náhuatl/Náhuatl 101 tomorrow.

 

Literally “too good to be true!!!!!!!”

 

Maria Bolivar

 

  _____  

From: Maria Bolivar [mailto:mbolivar at san.rr.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 12:04 PM
To: 'Maria Bolivar'; 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: 'nahuatl at lists.famsi.org'
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

I know Náhuatl is taught here and there. I am not questioning that. I am amazed at the sudden need arising from a decree that involves several million people. Ebrard has no influence whatsoever over what is taught at UNAM or UAM, but the Universidad Autónoma del Distrito Federal was sold to people on the pretense it was going to be an innovative project geared towards filling voids elitist education had previously neglected. Yet I don’t see those innovative programs. In Literature they have mimicked, to the extreme, the UNAM curriculum. I see the UACM as yet another employment unit to accommodate the friends of the PRD.

 

As for the interest in Náhuatl coming from Anthropologists it has always been the case. ENA has taught languages through satellite programs in Morelos and other places and validated the study of several languages. There is a true revival of those languages today, more than ever. It only makes me sad it was never the interest of my colleagues in Literature or Critical Theory and/or Cultural Studies. 

 

In UNAM Linguistics is not separate from Filosofía and Letras as it is in the UC system (University of California) Yet in the UC or in UNAM there isn’t a program fully devoted to Mesoamerican Languages. Those professors engaging in research of those languages still do so on their own and with lots of monetary restrictions.

 

I am truly concerned about the reception of Náhuatl once it becomes a mandatory subject. Already many in Mexico City were questioning the measure claiming it was more important to learn how to use computers than Náhuatl… and as I said before, resistance to English has been the case, even though English has been mandatory since the times of Vasconcelos. People dread the mandatory subjects, that is why I mentioned Civismo. Just imagine how having instructors improvised in the subject will contribute to such a resistance. The problem will deepen when all those students realize the university does not have a structure welcoming Náhuatl as a main subject, but rather a secondary one, for which studying is going to be more of a calvary than a smooth project.

 

My final point. To be sincere, any project like this has to follow a realistic time frame. In 2008-2009, that is next year, all of the sudden, all schools will have to include Náhuatl. If that is not “de a plumazo”, what is?

 

Maria Bolivar

 

  _____  

From: Karen Dakin [mailto:dakin at servidor.unam.mx] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:51 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: Karen Dakin
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

María Bolivar -- 

Just to provide you with more accurate information, since sometimes it is hard to find out what is taught where at the UNAM.  Nahuatl, basically as used in documents,  is taught at the licenciatura level in the FFL, in the History curriculum, but also includes students from other areas, and it is a central part of the graduate programs in Estudios Mesoamericanos (along with Mayan and colonial Zapotec and periodically Tojolabal), Antropología, and also included for those interested in the graduate program in Lingüísitica. A course aimed more at spoken varieties is also given in Antropologicas. There are also students who work on projects involving teaching Nahuatl in the Applied Linguistics program.  

 

Karen Dakin

 

 

 

  _____  

From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Maria Bolivar
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:32 AM
To: 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Well it is wonderful that Marcelo Ebrard thinks about that. But it might just be a way to fill the Zocalo with more people. I would have loved to see other measures coupled with that one. Like a School of Náhuatl in the newly created Universidad Autónoma de la Ciudad de México or the creation of communitary schools to prepare speakers of Náhuatl like John does, to participate in courses to form professors. But none of that has been going on. At UNAM Náhuatl is not even part of the Facultad de Filosofía y Letras and our intellectuals would not even dream of relinquishing some of their lines to have Náhuatl figure in their curricula.

 

So as wonderful as it is that Marcelo can think beyond his predecessors, I find the measure superficial and “impossible”.

 

I taught for many years Civismo, a mandatory subject in all schools, public and private… My students went to class with an attitude. The program, imposed by the Secretaría de Educación Pública was so boring even Political Scientists, Historians  and/or Social Scientists considered dreadful to teach it. So, I cannot begin to imagine how they will implement a mandatory Náhuatl Program. My experience in California is that when “speaking” Spanish was mandatory for instructors, vía the BCLAD, corruption erupted everywhere and instructors who did not Speak Spanish where trained to jump in, with only a test as requirement.

 

It will be interested to see how this evolves. We are talking about a school population of 8 million?

 

Maria Bolívar

 

 

  _____  

From: John Sullivan, Ph.D. [mailto:idiez at mac.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:59 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar��

            It's just politics. The decree started on paper and it will end there.

John

 

John Sullivan, Ph.D.

Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua

Universidad Aut󮯭a de Zacatecas

Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci󮠅tnol󧩣a de Zacatecas, A.C.

Tacuba 152, int. 47

Centro Hist󲩣o

Zacatecas, Zac. 98000

M鸩co

Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415

Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416

Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048

Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854

idiez at mac.com

www.idiez.org.mx

www.macehualli.org

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From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sat Aug 18 19:15:56 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:15:56 -0700
Subject: N=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1huatl?= mandatory  in public schools in
 Mexico Cit y
In-Reply-To: <573BA58401E5465A9F1440E8270E0B0C@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.121556.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

Can I ask… why are all of our messages being posted twice? Is it something we are doing?

I am sorry about my double messages, in any case.

 

Maria

  _____  

From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Maria Bolivar
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 12:08 PM
To: 'Maria Bolivar'; 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

By the way, the measure is to be implemented in the public schools of basic instruction, las prepas and secundarias. I am not sure they mean elementary schools too. We are talking about millions of students with the need for thousands of teachers. We could start an exercise of counting how many would be ready to start teaching basic Náhuatl/Náhuatl 101 tomorrow.

 

Literally “too good to be true!!!!!!!”

 

Maria Bolivar

 

  _____  

From: Maria Bolivar [mailto:mbolivar at san.rr.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 12:04 PM
To: 'Maria Bolivar'; 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: 'nahuatl at lists.famsi.org'
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

I know Náhuatl is taught here and there. I am not questioning that. I am amazed at the sudden need arising from a decree that involves several million people. Ebrard has no influence whatsoever over what is taught at UNAM or UAM, but the Universidad Autónoma del Distrito Federal was sold to people on the pretense it was going to be an innovative project geared towards filling voids elitist education had previously neglected. Yet I don’t see those innovative programs. In Literature they have mimicked, to the extreme, the UNAM curriculum. I see the UACM as yet another employment unit to accommodate the friends of the PRD.

 

As for the interest in Náhuatl coming from Anthropologists it has always been the case. ENA has taught languages through satellite programs in Morelos and other places and validated the study of several languages. There is a true revival of those languages today, more than ever. It only makes me sad it was never the interest of my colleagues in Literature or Critical Theory and/or Cultural Studies. 

 

In UNAM Linguistics is not separate from Filosofía and Letras as it is in the UC system (University of California) Yet in the UC or in UNAM there isn’t a program fully devoted to Mesoamerican Languages. Those professors engaging in research of those languages still do so on their own and with lots of monetary restrictions.

 

I am truly concerned about the reception of Náhuatl once it becomes a mandatory subject. Already many in Mexico City were questioning the measure claiming it was more important to learn how to use computers than Náhuatl… and as I said before, resistance to English has been the case, even though English has been mandatory since the times of Vasconcelos. People dread the mandatory subjects, that is why I mentioned Civismo. Just imagine how having instructors improvised in the subject will contribute to such a resistance. The problem will deepen when all those students realize the university does not have a structure welcoming Náhuatl as a main subject, but rather a secondary one, for which studying is going to be more of a calvary than a smooth project.

 

My final point. To be sincere, any project like this has to follow a realistic time frame. In 2008-2009, that is next year, all of the sudden, all schools will have to include Náhuatl. If that is not “de a plumazo”, what is?

 

Maria Bolivar

 

  _____  

From: Karen Dakin [mailto:dakin at servidor.unam.mx] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:51 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: Karen Dakin
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

María Bolivar -- 

Just to provide you with more accurate information, since sometimes it is hard to find out what is taught where at the UNAM.  Nahuatl, basically as used in documents,  is taught at the licenciatura level in the FFL, in the History curriculum, but also includes students from other areas, and it is a central part of the graduate programs in Estudios Mesoamericanos (along with Mayan and colonial Zapotec and periodically Tojolabal), Antropología, and also included for those interested in the graduate program in Lingüísitica. A course aimed more at spoken varieties is also given in Antropologicas. There are also students who work on projects involving teaching Nahuatl in the Applied Linguistics program.  

 

Karen Dakin

 

 

 

  _____  

From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Maria Bolivar
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:32 AM
To: 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Well it is wonderful that Marcelo Ebrard thinks about that. But it might just be a way to fill the Zocalo with more people. I would have loved to see other measures coupled with that one. Like a School of Náhuatl in the newly created Universidad Autónoma de la Ciudad de México or the creation of communitary schools to prepare speakers of Náhuatl like John does, to participate in courses to form professors. But none of that has been going on. At UNAM Náhuatl is not even part of the Facultad de Filosofía y Letras and our intellectuals would not even dream of relinquishing some of their lines to have Náhuatl figure in their curricula.

 

So as wonderful as it is that Marcelo can think beyond his predecessors, I find the measure superficial and “impossible”.

 

I taught for many years Civismo, a mandatory subject in all schools, public and private… My students went to class with an attitude. The program, imposed by the Secretaría de Educación Pública was so boring even Political Scientists, Historians  and/or Social Scientists considered dreadful to teach it. So, I cannot begin to imagine how they will implement a mandatory Náhuatl Program. My experience in California is that when “speaking” Spanish was mandatory for instructors, vía the BCLAD, corruption erupted everywhere and instructors who did not Speak Spanish where trained to jump in, with only a test as requirement.

 

It will be interested to see how this evolves. We are talking about a school population of 8 million?

 

Maria Bolívar

 

 

  _____  

From: John Sullivan, Ph.D. [mailto:idiez at mac.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:59 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar��

            It's just politics. The decree started on paper and it will end there.

John

 

John Sullivan, Ph.D.

Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua

Universidad Aut󮯭a de Zacatecas

Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci󮠅tnol󧩣a de Zacatecas, A.C.

Tacuba 152, int. 47

Centro Hist󲩣o

Zacatecas, Zac. 98000

M鸩co

Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415

Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416

Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048

Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854

idiez at mac.com

www.idiez.org.mx

www.macehualli.org

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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From villas at anawak.com  Sat Aug 18 22:25:10 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 18:25:10 -0400
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public scho ols in
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <C27B7B61-6E71-4567-9DD0-FF9273F51B74@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.182510.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

It was about time to make Nawatl a mandatory subject, I have always  
thought it a disservice for Mexican schools not teach Nawatl, but   
French or English instead, both odious langauges to the Mexican  
Indigenous people.

Totenyo, Totau'ka Mexika

Marcos Villaseñor (Altepeteku'tli)


On Aug 18, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Kier Salmon wrote:

> Having grow up in Mexico and been in Mexican public schools, I  
> shudder to think about the logistics of the problem.  The teachers  
> would be one step ahead of the students all the way.
> I was fully spanish/english bilingual and two of my Secundaria  
> teachers were ok with letting me read in class and letting them get  
> on with trying to pound the language (very inexpertly) into my  
> classmates heads... one decided my brother and I had to perform all  
> the tasks she gave the class; I still remember the day she said,  
> "Mouse; mice, blouse...   "  That one stalemated in La Directora's  
> office.  Now think of the difference linguistically between spanish  
> and nahuatl as opposed to spanish and english (both indo-european  
> based if broadly seperated.).
> One thing I think we will see, however is a much larger support  
> from the population for learning nahuatl.  English and french and  
> german were very resented as signs of Mexico's subordination on the  
> international scene and all my classmates gladly forgot every bit  
> they learned as fast as possible.  There is hope that this would  
> not be the feeling about nahuatl; for the past 20 years "hablar  
> indio" has been much less pejorative than it was in my growing up  
> years.
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:
>
>> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has  
>> discussed
>> Náhuatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's  
>> Public Schools.
>>
>> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that  
>> decree. I
>> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to  
>> start all
>> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes  
>> effective.
>> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas  
>> there were
>> very few instructors of English and those available did not really  
>> speak
>> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the  
>> number of
>> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the  
>> new
>> measure for Náhuatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful  
>> to dream,
>> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Maria Bolivar
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sun Aug 19 00:49:38 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:49:38 -0700
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools i n
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <3F8F1F08-D081-48D2-9D8C-32B467BA770E@anawak.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.174938.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

And it will continue to be a disservice. What I am lamenting is not that
they included Nahuatl in the mandatory curriculum, rather that they did it
as they did, by decree and suddenly or as a spur of the moment thing. 

Languages like Náhuatl, Huichol, Yaqui, Maya deserve some serious attention
and the implementation of long term measures so more people can access them
and teach it. I frankly do not thing there are many programs in Mexico
training teachers of any of the native American languages.

As for English and French, I wish you did not considered them odious -as per
by decree also-, but useful. We should learn from the fact English has been
a mandatory language and very few people speak it fluently or care to learn
it. I would follow the French or German education model in that area. French
kids do learn German, English and Spanish. They spend time in the country to
perfect it. They choose it because those are the languages of their
neighbors. You may learn French and English, fluently, in Private Mexican
Schools but not in Public Schools. My son had a teacher in Zacatecas Public
School who asked him not to answer and who got mad at my son when he
attempted to explain to him he was misusing a word in English. As for
French... only those who can afford the Alianza Francesa can learn French.
There is rarely a school that hires a French Instructor over, precisely,
subjects like Computación and Physics. Languages, Art and Music are as
important in teaching critical thinking, systems understanding and
abstraction, but are not considered along those lines "important". 

As for Civismo. I loved Civismo myself. I had a great teacher and the books
the government publishes are also great. I have them still, though all the
times I have moved. Civismo was, precisely, the subject that allowed me to
survive for years. But I do not think the majority of students loved it. 

One more note on books in the various languages published by INEA. I have
the ones from Chiapas and Nayarit, they are beautiful. But for some stupid
reason they make a very limited edition of each of those so they are stingy
when people who are not speakers of those languages request them. I asked
the Mexican Consulate to donate books in those languages to a Cultural
Center in an area of San Diego where people want to raise awareness of
Native American Languages and they said it was a no, since those books were
primarily distributed in the states where those languages are still spoken.
Strictly speaking they are right... but think again. I have Mayan speaking
neighbors in Mira Mesa, San Diego and there are many Mixteco and Purépecha
workers whose children might not learn those languages in the US.

Anyway... this new decree mandated Náhuatl starting the school year
2008-2009. We will see how many speakers of Náhuatl come forth to fill those
positions opening, and what the measure entails in terms of practical
application. Considering the numbers involved, each hablante de Náhuatl
should work in several schools, various shifts and make a lot of money...
Unless, as they do for English, the SEDF hires friends who "say" they speak
Náhuatl, instead.

Saludos

María Bolívar

-----Original Message-----
From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
[mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Marcos Villaseñor
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 3:25 PM
To: Kier Salmon
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

It was about time to make Nawatl a mandatory subject, I have always  
thought it a disservice for Mexican schools not teach Nawatl, but   
French or English instead, both odious langauges to the Mexican  
Indigenous people.

Totenyo, Totau'ka Mexika

Marcos Villaseñor (Altepeteku'tli)


On Aug 18, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Kier Salmon wrote:

> Having grow up in Mexico and been in Mexican public schools, I  
> shudder to think about the logistics of the problem.  The teachers  
> would be one step ahead of the students all the way.
> I was fully spanish/english bilingual and two of my Secundaria  
> teachers were ok with letting me read in class and letting them get  
> on with trying to pound the language (very inexpertly) into my  
> classmates heads... one decided my brother and I had to perform all  
> the tasks she gave the class; I still remember the day she said,  
> "Mouse; mice, blouse...   "  That one stalemated in La Directora's  
> office.  Now think of the difference linguistically between spanish  
> and nahuatl as opposed to spanish and english (both indo-european  
> based if broadly seperated.).
> One thing I think we will see, however is a much larger support  
> from the population for learning nahuatl.  English and french and  
> german were very resented as signs of Mexico's subordination on the  
> international scene and all my classmates gladly forgot every bit  
> they learned as fast as possible.  There is hope that this would  
> not be the feeling about nahuatl; for the past 20 years "hablar  
> indio" has been much less pejorative than it was in my growing up  
> years.
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:
>
>> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has  
>> discussed
>> Náhuatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's  
>> Public Schools.
>>
>> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that  
>> decree. I
>> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to  
>> start all
>> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes  
>> effective.
>> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas  
>> there were
>> very few instructors of English and those available did not really  
>> speak
>> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the  
>> number of
>> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the  
>> new
>> measure for Náhuatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful  
>> to dream,
>> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Maria Bolivar
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From chelodona at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 19 01:08:24 2007
From: chelodona at hotmail.com (chelo dona)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:08:24 -0300
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public  schools in
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <1E9849F5980C4E91B08FCFDB8983A976@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.220824.0300.CHELODONA@HOTMAIL.COM>

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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sun Aug 19 15:37:09 2007
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:37:09 -0500
Subject: La ense�anza de las lenguas ind�ge nas en M�xico
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.103709.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Apreciados listeros:
 
Les ofrezco algunos documentos sobre las políticas lingüísticas en México,
con el propósito de enriquecer la discusión sobre la enseñanza del náhuatl
en México.
 
En 2003 fue publicada la Ley General de Derechos Lingüísticos de los Pueblos
Indígenas.
http://www.inali.gob.mx/pdf/ley-GDLPI.pdf
 
Como parte de esta ley se creó el Instituto Nacional de Lenguas Indígenas
(INALI), el cual ya se encuentra consolidado y está trabajando intensamente.
http://www.inali.gob.mx/index.html
 
La Secretaría de Educación Pública tiene muchos años de experiencia en el
ámbito de las lenguas indígenas. Durante las últimas dos décadas su política
ha cambiado y hay algunos logros.
http://www.sep.gob.mx/wb2/sep1/sep1_Direccion_General_de_Educacion_Indigena
 
Para un breve boceto del impacto de las políticas lingüísticas al idioma
otomí, a lo largo de medio milenio, apunto un vínculo a una ponencia que
presenté hace una década.
http://www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright/oto_edu.htm
 
Para algunos conceptos generales acerca de los derechos lingüísticos
universales, es útil la Declaración Universal de Derechos Lingüísticos,
presentada por un grupo amplio de organizaciones no gubernamentales en
Barcelona en 1996:
http://www.linguistic-declaration.org/index-gb.htm
 
Saludos,
 
David Wright
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From villas at anawak.com  Sun Aug 19 18:43:24 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:43:24 -0400
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public scho ols in
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <1E9849F5980C4E91B08FCFDB8983A976@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.144324.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

Everything in Mexico gets done (not) by decree. The imperial Wey  
Tlatoani system translated to the French ideal of humans devoid of  
history and separated from nature.  But at least it is a forward  
movement, we will see how serious they (Panistas) are about this in a  
couple of years. Recall that under Mr. Zorro, his Secretario de (Des)  
Educación Pública, decided that the pre-invasion history should not  
be included in the text books. I have no faith in the PAN leadership,  
as they are the same as the PRI and the PRD (Perdere), a bunch of  
thiefs who parrot their religious and moral beliefs, while pocketing  
millions of dollars at an incredible social cost.


We will see if Mr. Calderon is really about recognizing our  
indigenous roots and promoting their revival. But to judge by all the  
"privileged class" representatives I know in Mexico, they will  
continue the ethnocide that started 500 years ago, in the name of a  
christian civilizational project until all Mexicans have been de- 
indianized.


Totenyo Totau'ka Mexika

el otro Marcos





On Aug 18, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Maria Bolivar wrote:

> And it will continue to be a disservice. What I am lamenting is not  
> that
> they included Nahuatl in the mandatory curriculum, rather that they  
> did it
> as they did, by decree and suddenly or as a spur of the moment thing.
>
> Languages like Náhuatl, Huichol, Yaqui, Maya deserve some serious  
> attention
> and the implementation of long term measures so more people can  
> access them
> and teach it. I frankly do not thing there are many programs in Mexico
> training teachers of any of the native American languages.
>
> As for English and French, I wish you did not considered them  
> odious -as per
> by decree also-, but useful. We should learn from the fact English  
> has been
> a mandatory language and very few people speak it fluently or care  
> to learn
> it. I would follow the French or German education model in that  
> area. French
> kids do learn German, English and Spanish. They spend time in the  
> country to
> perfect it. They choose it because those are the languages of their
> neighbors. You may learn French and English, fluently, in Private  
> Mexican
> Schools but not in Public Schools. My son had a teacher in  
> Zacatecas Public
> School who asked him not to answer and who got mad at my son when he
> attempted to explain to him he was misusing a word in English. As for
> French... only those who can afford the Alianza Francesa can learn  
> French.
> There is rarely a school that hires a French Instructor over,  
> precisely,
> subjects like Computación and Physics. Languages, Art and Music are as
> important in teaching critical thinking, systems understanding and
> abstraction, but are not considered along those lines "important".
>
> As for Civismo. I loved Civismo myself. I had a great teacher and  
> the books
> the government publishes are also great. I have them still, though  
> all the
> times I have moved. Civismo was, precisely, the subject that  
> allowed me to
> survive for years. But I do not think the majority of students  
> loved it.
>
> One more note on books in the various languages published by INEA.  
> I have
> the ones from Chiapas and Nayarit, they are beautiful. But for some  
> stupid
> reason they make a very limited edition of each of those so they  
> are stingy
> when people who are not speakers of those languages request them. I  
> asked
> the Mexican Consulate to donate books in those languages to a Cultural
> Center in an area of San Diego where people want to raise awareness of
> Native American Languages and they said it was a no, since those  
> books were
> primarily distributed in the states where those languages are still  
> spoken.
> Strictly speaking they are right... but think again. I have Mayan  
> speaking
> neighbors in Mira Mesa, San Diego and there are many Mixteco and  
> Purépecha
> workers whose children might not learn those languages in the US.
>
> Anyway... this new decree mandated Náhuatl starting the school year
> 2008-2009. We will see how many speakers of Náhuatl come forth to  
> fill those
> positions opening, and what the measure entails in terms of practical
> application. Considering the numbers involved, each hablante de  
> Náhuatl
> should work in several schools, various shifts and make a lot of  
> money...
> Unless, as they do for English, the SEDF hires friends who "say"  
> they speak
> Náhuatl, instead.
>
> Saludos
>
> María Bolívar
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
> [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Marcos  
> Villaseñor
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 3:25 PM
> To: Kier Salmon
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in  
> Mexico City
>
> It was about time to make Nawatl a mandatory subject, I have always
> thought it a disservice for Mexican schools not teach Nawatl, but
> French or English instead, both odious langauges to the Mexican
> Indigenous people.
>
> Totenyo, Totau'ka Mexika
>
> Marcos Villaseñor (Altepeteku'tli)
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Kier Salmon wrote:
>
>> Having grow up in Mexico and been in Mexican public schools, I
>> shudder to think about the logistics of the problem.  The teachers
>> would be one step ahead of the students all the way.
>> I was fully spanish/english bilingual and two of my Secundaria
>> teachers were ok with letting me read in class and letting them get
>> on with trying to pound the language (very inexpertly) into my
>> classmates heads... one decided my brother and I had to perform all
>> the tasks she gave the class; I still remember the day she said,
>> "Mouse; mice, blouse...   "  That one stalemated in La Directora's
>> office.  Now think of the difference linguistically between spanish
>> and nahuatl as opposed to spanish and english (both indo-european
>> based if broadly seperated.).
>> One thing I think we will see, however is a much larger support
>> from the population for learning nahuatl.  English and french and
>> german were very resented as signs of Mexico's subordination on the
>> international scene and all my classmates gladly forgot every bit
>> they learned as fast as possible.  There is hope that this would
>> not be the feeling about nahuatl; for the past 20 years "hablar
>> indio" has been much less pejorative than it was in my growing up
>> years.
>>
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:
>>
>>> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has
>>> discussed
>>> Náhuatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's
>>> Public Schools.
>>>
>>> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that
>>> decree. I
>>> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to
>>> start all
>>> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes
>>> effective.
>>> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas
>>> there were
>>> very few instructors of English and those available did not really
>>> speak
>>> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the
>>> number of
>>> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the
>>> new
>>> measure for Náhuatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful
>>> to dream,
>>> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Maria Bolivar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sun Aug 19 19:59:52 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:59:52 -0700
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools i n
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <841D6C31-2E62-4C05-82D8-6BABF1C251D3@anawak.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.125952.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

Marcos, I agree the Pan stinks. I have no hopes for anything they either do
or not do. It is the left I criticize for disappointing those they claim to
represent. 

As for the decree on Náhuatl, it is the work of Marcelo Ebrard, the governor
of Mexico City (PRD). It is interesting how the school system works in
Mexico. It used to be a Federal System, until it was decreed that each state
should manage its own resources. And it happened with the DF being the last
to be due for decentralization. That was one of the main quarrels between
Lopez and Fox (Zorro). Because of the numbers, DF Government would absorb
suddenly a big, big problem, coupled with a big, big subsidy, Fox attempted
to curtail. El subsidio educativo para el DF ascendía a 18 000 millones de
pesos en el año de la descentralización. 


Maria Bolivar


-----Original Message-----
From: Marcos Villaseñor [mailto:villas at anawak.com] 
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 11:43 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: 'Kier Salmon'; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

Everything in Mexico gets done (not) by decree. The imperial Wey  
Tlatoani system translated to the French ideal of humans devoid of  
history and separated from nature.  But at least it is a forward  
movement, we will see how serious they (Panistas) are about this in a  
couple of years. Recall that under Mr. Zorro, his Secretario de (Des)  
Educación Pública, decided that the pre-invasion history should not  
be included in the text books. I have no faith in the PAN leadership,  
as they are the same as the PRI and the PRD (Perdere), a bunch of  
thiefs who parrot their religious and moral beliefs, while pocketing  
millions of dollars at an incredible social cost.


We will see if Mr. Calderon is really about recognizing our  
indigenous roots and promoting their revival. But to judge by all the  
"privileged class" representatives I know in Mexico, they will  
continue the ethnocide that started 500 years ago, in the name of a  
christian civilizational project until all Mexicans have been de- 
indianized.


Totenyo Totau'ka Mexika

el otro Marcos





On Aug 18, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Maria Bolivar wrote:

> And it will continue to be a disservice. What I am lamenting is not  
> that
> they included Nahuatl in the mandatory curriculum, rather that they  
> did it
> as they did, by decree and suddenly or as a spur of the moment thing.
>
> Languages like Náhuatl, Huichol, Yaqui, Maya deserve some serious  
> attention
> and the implementation of long term measures so more people can  
> access them
> and teach it. I frankly do not thing there are many programs in Mexico
> training teachers of any of the native American languages.
>
> As for English and French, I wish you did not considered them  
> odious -as per
> by decree also-, but useful. We should learn from the fact English  
> has been
> a mandatory language and very few people speak it fluently or care  
> to learn
> it. I would follow the French or German education model in that  
> area. French
> kids do learn German, English and Spanish. They spend time in the  
> country to
> perfect it. They choose it because those are the languages of their
> neighbors. You may learn French and English, fluently, in Private  
> Mexican
> Schools but not in Public Schools. My son had a teacher in  
> Zacatecas Public
> School who asked him not to answer and who got mad at my son when he
> attempted to explain to him he was misusing a word in English. As for
> French... only those who can afford the Alianza Francesa can learn  
> French.
> There is rarely a school that hires a French Instructor over,  
> precisely,
> subjects like Computación and Physics. Languages, Art and Music are as
> important in teaching critical thinking, systems understanding and
> abstraction, but are not considered along those lines "important".
>
> As for Civismo. I loved Civismo myself. I had a great teacher and  
> the books
> the government publishes are also great. I have them still, though  
> all the
> times I have moved. Civismo was, precisely, the subject that  
> allowed me to
> survive for years. But I do not think the majority of students  
> loved it.
>
> One more note on books in the various languages published by INEA.  
> I have
> the ones from Chiapas and Nayarit, they are beautiful. But for some  
> stupid
> reason they make a very limited edition of each of those so they  
> are stingy
> when people who are not speakers of those languages request them. I  
> asked
> the Mexican Consulate to donate books in those languages to a Cultural
> Center in an area of San Diego where people want to raise awareness of
> Native American Languages and they said it was a no, since those  
> books were
> primarily distributed in the states where those languages are still  
> spoken.
> Strictly speaking they are right... but think again. I have Mayan  
> speaking
> neighbors in Mira Mesa, San Diego and there are many Mixteco and  
> Purépecha
> workers whose children might not learn those languages in the US.
>
> Anyway... this new decree mandated Náhuatl starting the school year
> 2008-2009. We will see how many speakers of Náhuatl come forth to  
> fill those
> positions opening, and what the measure entails in terms of practical
> application. Considering the numbers involved, each hablante de  
> Náhuatl
> should work in several schools, various shifts and make a lot of  
> money...
> Unless, as they do for English, the SEDF hires friends who "say"  
> they speak
> Náhuatl, instead.
>
> Saludos
>
> María Bolívar
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
> [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Marcos  
> Villaseñor
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 3:25 PM
> To: Kier Salmon
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Náhuatl mandatory in public schools in  
> Mexico City
>
> It was about time to make Nawatl a mandatory subject, I have always
> thought it a disservice for Mexican schools not teach Nawatl, but
> French or English instead, both odious langauges to the Mexican
> Indigenous people.
>
> Totenyo, Totau'ka Mexika
>
> Marcos Villaseñor (Altepeteku'tli)
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Kier Salmon wrote:
>
>> Having grow up in Mexico and been in Mexican public schools, I
>> shudder to think about the logistics of the problem.  The teachers
>> would be one step ahead of the students all the way.
>> I was fully spanish/english bilingual and two of my Secundaria
>> teachers were ok with letting me read in class and letting them get
>> on with trying to pound the language (very inexpertly) into my
>> classmates heads... one decided my brother and I had to perform all
>> the tasks she gave the class; I still remember the day she said,
>> "Mouse; mice, blouse...   "  That one stalemated in La Directora's
>> office.  Now think of the difference linguistically between spanish
>> and nahuatl as opposed to spanish and english (both indo-european
>> based if broadly seperated.).
>> One thing I think we will see, however is a much larger support
>> from the population for learning nahuatl.  English and french and
>> german were very resented as signs of Mexico's subordination on the
>> international scene and all my classmates gladly forgot every bit
>> they learned as fast as possible.  There is hope that this would
>> not be the feeling about nahuatl; for the past 20 years "hablar
>> indio" has been much less pejorative than it was in my growing up
>> years.
>>
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:
>>
>>> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has
>>> discussed
>>> Náhuatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's
>>> Public Schools.
>>>
>>> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that
>>> decree. I
>>> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to
>>> start all
>>> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes
>>> effective.
>>> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas
>>> there were
>>> very few instructors of English and those available did not really
>>> speak
>>> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the
>>> number of
>>> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the
>>> new
>>> measure for Náhuatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful
>>> to dream,
>>> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Maria Bolivar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sun Aug 19 20:23:08 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:23:08 -0700
Subject: La
 ense=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1anza_de_las_lenguas_ind=EDgen_as_en_M=E9xico?=
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAFSuI922EoRPiKSCadztChvCgAAAEAAAAOXbrCm7CX1JpVuPJWEDCp4BAAAAAA==@prodigy.net.mx>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.132308.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

I thought this to be of interest:

 

Languages are vehicles of value systems and of cultural expressions and they
constitute a determining factor in the identity of groups and individuals.  

*	Over 50% of the world's 6000 languages are endangered. 
*	96% of the world's 6000 languages are spoken by 4% of the world's
population. 
*	90% of the world's languages are not represented on the Internet. 
*	One language disappears on average every two weeks. 
*	80% of the African languages have no orthography.

The UNESCO Endangered Languages Program has as its mission to promote and
safeguard endangered languages and linguistic diversity as an essential part
of the living heritage of humanity.

Maria

 

  _____  

From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
[mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of David Wright
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 8:37 AM
To: Nahuat-l (messages)
Subject: [Nahuat-l] La enseñanza de las lenguas indígenas en México

 

Apreciados listeros:

 

Les ofrezco algunos documentos sobre las políticas lingüísticas en México,
con el propósito de enriquecer la discusión sobre la enseñanza del náhuatl
en México.

 

En 2003 fue publicada la Ley General de Derechos Lingüísticos de los Pueblos
Indígenas.

http://www.inali.gob.mx/pdf/ley-GDLPI.pdf

 

Como parte de esta ley se creó el Instituto Nacional de Lenguas Indígenas
(INALI), el cual ya se encuentra consolidado y está trabajando intensamente.

http://www.inali.gob.mx/index.html

 

La Secretaría de Educación Pública tiene muchos años de experiencia en el
ámbito de las lenguas indígenas. Durante las últimas dos décadas su política
ha cambiado y hay algunos logros.

http://www.sep.gob.mx/wb2/sep1/sep1_Direccion_General_de_Educacion_Indigena

 

Para un breve boceto del impacto de las políticas lingüísticas al idioma
otomí, a lo largo de medio milenio, apunto un vínculo a una ponencia que
presenté hace una década.

http://www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright/oto_edu.htm

 

Para algunos conceptos generales acerca de los derechos lingüísticos
universales, es útil la Declaración Universal de Derechos Lingüísticos,
presentada por un grupo amplio de organizaciones no gubernamentales en
Barcelona en 1996:

http://www.linguistic-declaration.org/index-gb.htm

 

Saludos,

 

David Wright

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From cedecor at gmx.net  Sun Aug 19 14:08:03 2007
From: cedecor at gmx.net (Douglas Hinds)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:08:03 +0200
Subject: N�huatl mandatory in public sc hools in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <1E9849F5980C4E91B08FCFDB8983A976@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.160803.0200.CEDECOR@GMX.NET>

Hola Maria, Kier, Marcos, chelo and any others following this
thread.

Maria Bolivar wrote:

> What I am lamenting is not that they included Nahuatl in the
> mandatory curriculum, rather that they did it as they did, by
> decree

Without a legal disposition no funds would be available for
implementing the program. Since (aside from property taxes) only the
federal government can level taxes, the govt. of the D.F. depends on
funding from the federal govt (governed by a different party) in
order to carry this out. No decree, no funding (and they don't get
enough funds to fully implement their programs, as is).

> and suddenly or as a spur of the moment thing.

We don't really know how much analysis and planning supported the
decision to make nahuatl universally and obligatorily taught in
all of Mexico City's public junior high and high schools.

Nor do we know what motived Marcelo to do this, or what practical
benefits (if any) will accrue from the program if and when it's
implemented, or how well it will be implemented. We'll just have to
wait and see.

Personally, I would like to see more support for the sustainable,
equitable and integral development (and compatible with the C169 of
the the UN's ILO) of Mexico's indigenous communities, so they
wouldn't have to migrate to the D.F. and other overpopulated
megacities (including this one).

I tried calling a friend (Nahua Governor for San Luis Potosi,
Hidalgo and part of Veracruz and Tamaulipas) who teaches in the
bilingual teachers college located in Tamazunchale to see what he
knows about this, as well as an ex-head of Sedesol's (Social
Development Sec.) Indigenous Program (now teaching law in the UNAM)
but neither was home at the moment.

In any case, what's to know? It's too soon! We'll just have to wait
and see what happens, won't we?

Lastly, I think it's important to recognize that in order to get to
somewhere that you want to go, you have to begin from wherever you
are, and a step is a step.

Governments are necessary evils and in the best of cases they design
and implement policies that exploit natural and human resources in
socially and ecologically responsible ways (and they could learn a
lot from their indigenous predecessors in that regard).

I wouldn't expect a whole lot from the present federal govt. in that
sense but they have a chance to do some good over the next 5+ years.
(It would be nice if politicians had to take an oath similar to the
one doctors take: Above all, do no harm).

> Languages like Náhuatl, Huichol, Yaqui, Maya deserve some serious
> attention and the implementation of long term measures so more
> people can access them and teach it. I frankly do not think there
> are many programs in Mexico training teachers of any of the native
> American languages.

> As for English and French, I wish you did not considered them
> odious -as per by decree also-, but useful. We should learn from
> the fact English has been a mandatory language and very few people
> speak it fluently or care to learn it. I would follow the French
> or German education model in that area. French kids do learn
> German, English and Spanish. They spend time in the country to
> perfect it. They choose it because those are the languages of
> their neighbors. You may learn French and English, fluently, in
> Private Mexican Schools but not in Public Schools. My son had a
> teacher in Zacatecas Public School who asked him not to answer and
> who got mad at my son when he attempted to explain to him he was
> misusing a word in English.

Most of the time what's taught is neither English nor Spanish but
rather, English as conceived by someone unfamiliar with it's sounds
and sentence structure.

Agradeciendo   de   antemano  la  atención  brindada,  aprovecho  la
oportunidad para manifestarles la seguridad de nuestra mayor estima.

Douglas Hinds
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, A.C.
Guadalajara (actualmente)



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Mon Aug 20 01:03:47 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:03:47 -0700
Subject: La
 ense=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1anza_de_las_lenguas_ind_=EDgenas_en_M=E9xico?=
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAFSuI922EoRPiKSCadztChvCgAAAEAAAAOXbrCm7CX1JpVuPJWEDCp4BAAAAAA==@prodigy.net.mx>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.180347.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Eah, listeros!  Aqui la pregunta, mi papá quien vive en Cuernavaca y  
su mujer que es una grilla bien activista no han escuchado nada de un  
"decreto presidencial" para la enseñaza del Nahuatl en las escuelas y  
el busco en las maquinas de busqueda sin hallar nada.  ¿Alguien tiene  
un entrelazo a ese derecto en particular?  O un articula de las  
noticias que lo discute.  Estos de las politicas son muy  
interessantes y voy a estar leyendo tarde esta noche, pero no son  
especificos a lo del decreto.


On Aug 19, 2007, at 8:37 AM, David Wright wrote:

> Apreciados listeros:
>
> Les ofrezco algunos documentos sobre las políticas lingüísticas en  
> México, con el propósito de enriquecer la discusión sobre la  
> enseñanza del náhuatl en México.
>
> En 2003 fue publicada la Ley General de Derechos Lingüísticos de  
> los Pueblos Indígenas.
> http://www.inali.gob.mx/pdf/ley-GDLPI.pdf
>
> Como parte de esta ley se creó el Instituto Nacional de Lenguas  
> Indígenas (INALI), el cual ya se encuentra consolidado y está  
> trabajando intensamente.
> http://www.inali.gob.mx/index.html
>
> La Secretaría de Educación Pública tiene muchos años de experiencia  
> en el ámbito de las lenguas indígenas. Durante las últimas dos  
> décadas su política ha cambiado y hay algunos logros.
> http://www.sep.gob.mx/wb2/sep1/ 
> sep1_Direccion_General_de_Educacion_Indigena
>
> Para un breve boceto del impacto de las políticas lingüísticas al  
> idioma otomí, a lo largo de medio milenio, apunto un vínculo a una  
> ponencia que presenté hace una década.
> http://www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright/oto_edu.htm
>
> Para algunos conceptos generales acerca de los derechos  
> lingüísticos universales, es útil la Declaración Universal de  
> Derechos Lingüísticos, presentada por un grupo amplio de  
> organizaciones no gubernamentales en Barcelona en 1996:
> http://www.linguistic-declaration.org/index-gb.htm
>
> Saludos,
>
> David Wright
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From villas at anawak.com  Mon Aug 20 02:49:53 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:49:53 -0500
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools in
 Mexico City
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.214953.0500.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says  
about the subject.

Marcos


On Aug 19, 2007, at 10:08 AM, Douglas Hinds wrote:

>
> Hola Maria, Kier, Marcos, chelo and any others following this
> thread.
>
> Maria Bolivar wrote:
>
>> What I am lamenting is not that they included Nahuatl in the
>> mandatory curriculum, rather that they did it as they did, by
>> decree
>
> Without a legal disposition no funds would be available for
> implementing the program. Since (aside from property taxes) only the
> federal government can level taxes, the govt. of the D.F. depends on
> funding from the federal govt (governed by a different party) in
> order to carry this out. No decree, no funding (and they don't get
> enough funds to fully implement their programs, as is).
>
>> and suddenly or as a spur of the moment thing.
>
> We don't really know how much analysis and planning supported the
> decision to make nahuatl universally and obligatorily taught in
> all of Mexico City's public junior high and high schools.
>
> Nor do we know what motived Marcelo to do this, or what practical
> benefits (if any) will accrue from the program if and when it's
> implemented, or how well it will be implemented. We'll just have to
> wait and see.
>
> Personally, I would like to see more support for the sustainable,
> equitable and integral development (and compatible with the C169 of
> the the UN's ILO) of Mexico's indigenous communities, so they
> wouldn't have to migrate to the D.F. and other overpopulated
> megacities (including this one).
>
> I tried calling a friend (Nahua Governor for San Luis Potosi,
> Hidalgo and part of Veracruz and Tamaulipas) who teaches in the
> bilingual teachers college located in Tamazunchale to see what he
> knows about this, as well as an ex-head of Sedesol's (Social
> Development Sec.) Indigenous Program (now teaching law in the UNAM)
> but neither was home at the moment.
>
> In any case, what's to know? It's too soon! We'll just have to wait
> and see what happens, won't we?
>
> Lastly, I think it's important to recognize that in order to get to
> somewhere that you want to go, you have to begin from wherever you
> are, and a step is a step.
>
> Governments are necessary evils and in the best of cases they design
> and implement policies that exploit natural and human resources in
> socially and ecologically responsible ways (and they could learn a
> lot from their indigenous predecessors in that regard).
>
> I wouldn't expect a whole lot from the present federal govt. in that
> sense but they have a chance to do some good over the next 5+ years.
> (It would be nice if politicians had to take an oath similar to the
> one doctors take: Above all, do no harm).
>
>> Languages like Náhuatl, Huichol, Yaqui, Maya deserve some serious
>> attention and the implementation of long term measures so more
>> people can access them and teach it. I frankly do not think there
>> are many programs in Mexico training teachers of any of the native
>> American languages.
>
>> As for English and French, I wish you did not considered them
>> odious -as per by decree also-, but useful. We should learn from
>> the fact English has been a mandatory language and very few people
>> speak it fluently or care to learn it. I would follow the French
>> or German education model in that area. French kids do learn
>> German, English and Spanish. They spend time in the country to
>> perfect it. They choose it because those are the languages of
>> their neighbors. You may learn French and English, fluently, in
>> Private Mexican Schools but not in Public Schools. My son had a
>> teacher in Zacatecas Public School who asked him not to answer and
>> who got mad at my son when he attempted to explain to him he was
>> misusing a word in English.
>
> Most of the time what's taught is neither English nor Spanish but
> rather, English as conceived by someone unfamiliar with it's sounds
> and sentence structure.
>
> Agradeciendo   de   antemano  la  atención  brindada,  aprovecho  la
> oportunidad para manifestarles la seguridad de nuestra mayor estima.
>
> Douglas Hinds
> Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, A.C.
> Guadalajara (actualmente)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>

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From idiez at mac.com  Mon Aug 20 03:50:08 2007
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:50:08 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Nahuat-l] Re: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in
 public  schools in Mexico City
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.225008.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

> Marcos,
> 	What indigenous leadership are you refering to?
> John
>
> John Sullivan, Ph.D.
> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
> Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
> Tacuba 152, int. 47
> Centro Histórico
> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
> México
> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
> Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
> idiez at mac.com
> www.idiez.org.mx
> www.macehualli.org
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>
> On Aug 19, 2007, at 2:51 PM, Marcos Villaseñor wrote:
>
>>
>> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
>> about the subject.
>>
>> Marcos
>>
>>
>

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From cedecor at gmx.net  Sun Aug 19 20:55:00 2007
From: cedecor at gmx.net (Douglas Hinds)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:55:00 +0200
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools in
 Mexico Ci ty
In-Reply-To: <73481936-2252-470B-83AE-859A594BA5F5@anawak.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.225500.0200.CEDECOR@GMX.NET>

> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
> about the subject.

> Marcos

In response to your request (plus I too am interested) I was able to
discuss this with Jesus, the ex-head of Sedesol's indigenous support
program who is also Secretary General of the Consejo Supremo
Nacional Indigena, an organization originally formed in 1521 (the
first time the various indigenous "ethnias" had banded together) in
order to preserve their culture at the point they realized that the
invading forces could not be stopped (Guns, Germs and Steel?).

During the 90's the CSNI was reestablished as an Asociación Civil
(non profit organization). However, when Amalia Garcia refused Fox's
offer to head the Social Development Secretariat, that position was
claimed by the party Fox used to get into power. (For those unaware,
Mexico's electoral processes are publicly funded -something the USA
sorely needs- and the funds are channelled only through political
parties).

Then, the split between Mexico's National Indigenous Institute (INI)
and the Interamerican Indigenous Institute (III) became even
greater, when Fox changed the name to something totally different,
ignoring the Pazquaro Accords Mexico signed in the 1940's.

Although the last PRI government helped form the CSNI originally,
the group is interested in establishing it's own political presence
in order to achieve the degree of autonomy that the constitution
(and the C169) indicates, particularly in the municipalities (which
include rural areas in Mexico - city governments do not exist as
such, except for the Federal District D.F.) in which they constitute
a majority and yet, often lack even a single councilman (regidor).

Doing this requires resources that should be available this year or
next. (I thought that this might be of interest to some of you,
particularly any in Mexico that might want to collaborate).

Getting back to Marcelo Ebrand's initiative, Jesus wasn't sure
whether the measure is obligatory or not but thought that it was and
in any case, it begins tomorrow (Monday). He too wondered where they
were going to get all the nahuatl instructors this will take.

Unfortunately I still couldn't get through to Santiago in
Tamazunchale but I'll try again at 6 am tomorrow. IAC, Jesus agreed
that Santiago probably teaches *in* Nahuatl but doesn't teach
Nahuatl itself (although I suppose he could).

It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
teach the culture also.

I could also check with another PRD govt. near el D.F. (Edomex) that
might know more about this, since it's a PRD initiative and we have
an established relationship with that particular local govt.

Another thing - I used to teach language and IMO, 3 or 4 classes a
week of 2-3 hours each are needed in order to do much good and if
it's any less than that I doubt that it will take on much
significance, educationally speaking.

Douglas Hinds


_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Mon Aug 20 05:46:37 2007
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:46:37 +0100
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory  in public schools
 in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <299786576.20070819225500@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.064637.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

Which dialect of Nahuatl? Classical Tenochtitlanian Nauhatl, or a
modern dialect (which?)?

--- Douglas Hinds <cedecor at gmx.net> wrote:
> ...
> It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
> teach the culture also.

Which parts of the culture?

Citlalyani.

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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From villas at anawak.com  Mon Aug 20 06:17:52 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:17:52 -0400
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public  schools
 in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <72AE309D-49BD-4917-ABFD-3C28DFF30DBE@mac.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.021752.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

John,

My reference is in relation to Douglas Hinds e-mail.

Marcos

On Aug 19, 2007, at 11:50 PM, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote:

>> Marcos,
>> 	What indigenous leadership are you refering to?
>> John
>>
>> John Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
>> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
>> Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
>> Tacuba 152, int. 47
>> Centro Histórico
>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
>> México
>> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
>> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
>> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
>> Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
>> idiez at mac.com
>> www.idiez.org.mx
>> www.macehualli.org
>> <John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2007, at 2:51 PM, Marcos Villaseñor wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
>>> about the subject.
>>>
>>> Marcos
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From villas at anawak.com  Mon Aug 20 06:20:55 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:20:55 -0400
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in  public schools
 in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <299786576.20070819225500@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.022055.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

Thanks


On Aug 19, 2007, at 4:55 PM, Douglas Hinds wrote:

>
>> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
>> about the subject.
>
>> Marcos
>
> In response to your request (plus I too am interested) I was able to
> discuss this with Jesus, the ex-head of Sedesol's indigenous support
> program who is also Secretary General of the Consejo Supremo
> Nacional Indigena, an organization originally formed in 1521 (the
> first time the various indigenous "ethnias" had banded together) in
> order to preserve their culture at the point they realized that the
> invading forces could not be stopped (Guns, Germs and Steel?).
>
> During the 90's the CSNI was reestablished as an Asociación Civil
> (non profit organization). However, when Amalia Garcia refused Fox's
> offer to head the Social Development Secretariat, that position was
> claimed by the party Fox used to get into power. (For those unaware,
> Mexico's electoral processes are publicly funded -something the USA
> sorely needs- and the funds are channelled only through political
> parties).
>
> Then, the split between Mexico's National Indigenous Institute (INI)
> and the Interamerican Indigenous Institute (III) became even
> greater, when Fox changed the name to something totally different,
> ignoring the Pazquaro Accords Mexico signed in the 1940's.
>
> Although the last PRI government helped form the CSNI originally,
> the group is interested in establishing it's own political presence
> in order to achieve the degree of autonomy that the constitution
> (and the C169) indicates, particularly in the municipalities (which
> include rural areas in Mexico - city governments do not exist as
> such, except for the Federal District D.F.) in which they constitute
> a majority and yet, often lack even a single councilman (regidor).
>
> Doing this requires resources that should be available this year or
> next. (I thought that this might be of interest to some of you,
> particularly any in Mexico that might want to collaborate).
>
> Getting back to Marcelo Ebrand's initiative, Jesus wasn't sure
> whether the measure is obligatory or not but thought that it was and
> in any case, it begins tomorrow (Monday). He too wondered where they
> were going to get all the nahuatl instructors this will take.
>
> Unfortunately I still couldn't get through to Santiago in
> Tamazunchale but I'll try again at 6 am tomorrow. IAC, Jesus agreed
> that Santiago probably teaches *in* Nahuatl but doesn't teach
> Nahuatl itself (although I suppose he could).
>
> It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
> teach the culture also.
>
> I could also check with another PRD govt. near el D.F. (Edomex) that
> might know more about this, since it's a PRD initiative and we have
> an established relationship with that particular local govt.
>
> Another thing - I used to teach language and IMO, 3 or 4 classes a
> week of 2-3 hours each are needed in order to do much good and if
> it's any less than that I doubt that it will take on much
> significance, educationally speaking.
>
> Douglas Hinds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From idiez at mac.com  Mon Aug 20 15:04:51 2007
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:04:51 -0500
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in  public schools
 in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <0740CD4B-CB49-42CB-8A99-2F2C7F7ABE62@anawak.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.100451.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

Douglas and Marcos,
	The general rule, according to my experience, is that the offering  
of government positions is one step in the standard procedure for  
buying out/ silencing leaders of social/political movements in  
Mexico. So, by definition, an indigenous leader would not be able to  
hold a government position, and continue to represent the interests  
of indians.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
México
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx
www.macehualli.org


On Aug 20, 2007, at 1:20 AM, Marcos Villaseñor wrote:

> Thanks
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2007, at 4:55 PM, Douglas Hinds wrote:
>
>>
>>> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
>>> about the subject.
>>
>>> Marcos
>>
>> In response to your request (plus I too am interested) I was able to
>> discuss this with Jesus, the ex-head of Sedesol's indigenous support
>> program who is also Secretary General of the Consejo Supremo
>> Nacional Indigena, an organization originally formed in 1521 (the
>> first time the various indigenous "ethnias" had banded together) in
>> order to preserve their culture at the point they realized that the
>> invading forces could not be stopped (Guns, Germs and Steel?).
>>
>> During the 90's the CSNI was reestablished as an Asociación Civil
>> (non profit organization). However, when Amalia Garcia refused Fox's
>> offer to head the Social Development Secretariat, that position was
>> claimed by the party Fox used to get into power. (For those unaware,
>> Mexico's electoral processes are publicly funded -something the USA
>> sorely needs- and the funds are channelled only through political
>> parties).
>>
>> Then, the split between Mexico's National Indigenous Institute (INI)
>> and the Interamerican Indigenous Institute (III) became even
>> greater, when Fox changed the name to something totally different,
>> ignoring the Pazquaro Accords Mexico signed in the 1940's.
>>
>> Although the last PRI government helped form the CSNI originally,
>> the group is interested in establishing it's own political presence
>> in order to achieve the degree of autonomy that the constitution
>> (and the C169) indicates, particularly in the municipalities (which
>> include rural areas in Mexico - city governments do not exist as
>> such, except for the Federal District D.F.) in which they constitute
>> a majority and yet, often lack even a single councilman (regidor).
>>
>> Doing this requires resources that should be available this year or
>> next. (I thought that this might be of interest to some of you,
>> particularly any in Mexico that might want to collaborate).
>>
>> Getting back to Marcelo Ebrand's initiative, Jesus wasn't sure
>> whether the measure is obligatory or not but thought that it was and
>> in any case, it begins tomorrow (Monday). He too wondered where they
>> were going to get all the nahuatl instructors this will take.
>>
>> Unfortunately I still couldn't get through to Santiago in
>> Tamazunchale but I'll try again at 6 am tomorrow. IAC, Jesus agreed
>> that Santiago probably teaches *in* Nahuatl but doesn't teach
>> Nahuatl itself (although I suppose he could).
>>
>> It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
>> teach the culture also.
>>
>> I could also check with another PRD govt. near el D.F. (Edomex) that
>> might know more about this, since it's a PRD initiative and we have
>> an established relationship with that particular local govt.
>>
>> Another thing - I used to teach language and IMO, 3 or 4 classes a
>> week of 2-3 hours each are needed in order to do much good and if
>> it's any less than that I doubt that it will take on much
>> significance, educationally speaking.
>>
>> Douglas Hinds
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl








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From villas at anawak.com  Mon Aug 20 18:01:56 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:01:56 -0400
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in  public schools
 in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <4D787C47-96EB-429E-AD4A-668D9D841DE5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.140156.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

That is a debateable point. Mexico has had extraordinary minds who  
had official positions in the Government and yet represented the  
interests of the nation and the Indigenous population, Narciso  
Bassols is a prime example,  Bonfil Batalla another one, he who  
faught for Indianismo (as opposed to Indigenismo) while heading the  
Instituto Nacional Indigenista.

But they are the exceptions that confirm the rule.


Marcos

On Aug 20, 2007, at 11:04 AM, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote:

> Douglas and Marcos,
> 	The general rule, according to my experience, is that the offering  
> of government positions is one step in the standard procedure for  
> buying out/ silencing leaders of social/political movements in  
> Mexico. So, by definition, an indigenous leader would not be able  
> to hold a government position, and continue to represent the  
> interests of indians.
> John
>
> John Sullivan, Ph.D.
> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
> Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
> Tacuba 152, int. 47
> Centro Histórico
> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
> México
> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
> Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
> idiez at mac.com
> www.idiez.org.mx
> www.macehualli.org
> <John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf>
>
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2007, at 1:20 AM, Marcos Villaseñor wrote:
>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2007, at 4:55 PM, Douglas Hinds wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
>>>> about the subject.
>>>
>>>> Marcos
>>>
>>> In response to your request (plus I too am interested) I was able to
>>> discuss this with Jesus, the ex-head of Sedesol's indigenous support
>>> program who is also Secretary General of the Consejo Supremo
>>> Nacional Indigena, an organization originally formed in 1521 (the
>>> first time the various indigenous "ethnias" had banded together) in
>>> order to preserve their culture at the point they realized that the
>>> invading forces could not be stopped (Guns, Germs and Steel?).
>>>
>>> During the 90's the CSNI was reestablished as an Asociación Civil
>>> (non profit organization). However, when Amalia Garcia refused Fox's
>>> offer to head the Social Development Secretariat, that position was
>>> claimed by the party Fox used to get into power. (For those unaware,
>>> Mexico's electoral processes are publicly funded -something the USA
>>> sorely needs- and the funds are channelled only through political
>>> parties).
>>>
>>> Then, the split between Mexico's National Indigenous Institute (INI)
>>> and the Interamerican Indigenous Institute (III) became even
>>> greater, when Fox changed the name to something totally different,
>>> ignoring the Pazquaro Accords Mexico signed in the 1940's.
>>>
>>> Although the last PRI government helped form the CSNI originally,
>>> the group is interested in establishing it's own political presence
>>> in order to achieve the degree of autonomy that the constitution
>>> (and the C169) indicates, particularly in the municipalities (which
>>> include rural areas in Mexico - city governments do not exist as
>>> such, except for the Federal District D.F.) in which they constitute
>>> a majority and yet, often lack even a single councilman (regidor).
>>>
>>> Doing this requires resources that should be available this year or
>>> next. (I thought that this might be of interest to some of you,
>>> particularly any in Mexico that might want to collaborate).
>>>
>>> Getting back to Marcelo Ebrand's initiative, Jesus wasn't sure
>>> whether the measure is obligatory or not but thought that it was and
>>> in any case, it begins tomorrow (Monday). He too wondered where they
>>> were going to get all the nahuatl instructors this will take.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately I still couldn't get through to Santiago in
>>> Tamazunchale but I'll try again at 6 am tomorrow. IAC, Jesus agreed
>>> that Santiago probably teaches *in* Nahuatl but doesn't teach
>>> Nahuatl itself (although I suppose he could).
>>>
>>> It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
>>> teach the culture also.
>>>
>>> I could also check with another PRD govt. near el D.F. (Edomex) that
>>> might know more about this, since it's a PRD initiative and we have
>>> an established relationship with that particular local govt.
>>>
>>> Another thing - I used to teach language and IMO, 3 or 4 classes a
>>> week of 2-3 hours each are needed in order to do much good and if
>>> it's any less than that I doubt that it will take on much
>>> significance, educationally speaking.
>>>
>>> Douglas Hinds
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From cedecor at gmx.net  Mon Aug 20 21:50:34 2007
From: cedecor at gmx.net (Douglas Hinds)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:50:34 -0500
Subject: N=?windows-1252?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools
 in Mexico Ci ty
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.165034.0500.CEDECOR@GMX.NET>

This was inadvertently sent to Anthony only this morning (I meant to
send it to the list also). I'm also adding a reply to the more
recent messages from John and Marcos below.

Anthony Appleyard asked two good questions:

> Which dialect of Nahuatl? Classical Tenochtitlanian Nauhatl, or a
> modern dialect (which?)?

I assume you're referring to what will be taught in Mexico City's
junior high and high schools (beginning today), and not what's being
used to teach nahuatl speaking teachers in the teachers college of
Tamazunchale. In either case I'd had to check and others here may
know more about it. I wouldn't sell the program short to begin with
since anything new is likely to require adjustments en route and
hopefully, those administrating the project will be open to your and
others constructive criticisms.

I suggested:

>> It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
>> teach the culture also.

> Which parts of the culture?

IMHO, the socially and ecologically responsible parts. But since John
Sullivan teaches both, he's likely to have more to say on the
subject.

John wrote:

>> Douglas and Marcos,

>> The general rule, according to my experience, is that the
>> offering of government positions is one step in the standard
>> procedure for buying out/ silencing leaders of social/political
>> movements in Mexico. So, by definition, an indigenous leader
>> would not be able to hold a government position, and continue to
>> represent the interests of indians.

It's true that the past regime was corporativa. It remained in power
by controlling the vote of the sectors of it's party. However -
without federal funds, their power dried up and the present regime
relies on marketing and bribing the judiciary to stay in power.
They don't bother to cultivate casiques.

This means it's a whole new ball game and the people I know that are
involved in establishing a new grass roots indigenous movement are
both serious and competent. An political association with a hundred
thousand non-indigenous members has been formed in just a few
central states and they are covering the cost of reactivating the
CSNI. Once that number is doubled the registry for a party dedicated
to indigenous autonomy and development can be obtained. This will
provide the funds needed for further expansion.

That's the idea (it seems viable to me).

Marcos said:

> That is a debateable point. Mexico has had extraordinary minds who
> had official positions in the Government and yet represented the
> interests of the nation and the Indigenous population, Narciso
> Bassols is a prime example, Bonfil Batalla another one, he who
> fought for Indianismo (as opposed to Indigenismo) while heading
> the Instituto Nacional Indigenista.

Well said.

If control can be obtained over local governments in municipalities in
which the indigenous population has a majority, a lot can be done to
help the communities development.

-- 

Douglas Hinds

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From oenthomas at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 23:34:34 2007
From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:34:34 -0700
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
Message-ID: <FRI.24.AUG.2007.163434.0700.OENTHOMAS@GMAIL.COM>

Listeros,

I have been attempting to learn without a teacher and have accumulated
several books, Andrews Grammar and workbook, Kartunen, Carocci and finally
Thelma Sullivan. I can read Sullivan but find that it does not follow all
Andrews NNC and VNC patterns.

I am learning from Thelma Sullivan and would like some assurance that this
will not set me on a path that leads to future failure by not following
correct grammar.

I would like to have some offers of help via the web; help anyone?

-- 
We are connected

Owen
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Sat Aug 25 17:31:19 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:31:19 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0708241634t5327e660x988de87e27e815c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.133119.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Probably the best way is using Campbell and Karttunen's _Foundation
Course_  When I teach Nahuatl to students, It's what I use.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/schwaljf/Nahuatl/hotlinks.htm




> Listeros,
>
> I have been attempting to learn without a teacher and have accumulated
> several books, Andrews Grammar and workbook, Kartunen, Carocci and finally
> Thelma Sullivan. I can read Sullivan but find that it does not follow all
> Andrews NNC and VNC patterns.
>
> I am learning from Thelma Sullivan and would like some assurance that this
> will not set me on a path that leads to future failure by not following
> correct grammar.
>
> I would like to have some offers of help via the web; help anyone?
>
> --
> We are connected
>
> Owen
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


-- 
John F. Schwaller
President,
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
schwallr at potsdam.edu


_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From villas at anawak.com  Sat Aug 25 17:47:24 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:47:24 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0708241634t5327e660x988de87e27e815c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.134724.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

To my knowledge there is no correct grammar, or at least grammatical  
convention, as there is no governing body for the language, there are  
aproximately 5 Nawatl conventions, all of them made by people for who  
Nawatl is a second language, and none of them Mexican.

I had to create my own orthographic convention, since classic Nahua  
is a dead language and modern Nawatl has been influenced by  suspect  
interest such as the  CIA's Instituto Linguistico de Verano.

If you wish a copy of my Nawatl Orthographic convention let me know,

Totenyo, Totau'ka, Mexikah

Marcos Villasenor

On Aug 24, 2007, at 7:34 PM, Owen Thomas wrote:

> Listeros,
>
> I have been attempting to learn without a teacher and have  
> accumulated several books, Andrews Grammar and workbook, Kartunen,  
> Carocci and finally Thelma Sullivan. I can read Sullivan but find  
> that it does not follow all Andrews NNC and VNC patterns.
>
> I am learning from Thelma Sullivan and would like some assurance  
> that this will not set me on a path that leads to future failure by  
> not following correct grammar.
>
> I would like to have some offers of help via the web; help anyone?
>
> -- 
> We are connected
>
> Owen
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
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From b.leeming at rivers.org  Sat Aug 25 18:11:05 2007
From: b.leeming at rivers.org (b.leeming at rivers.org)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:11:05 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.141105.0400.>

Owen,

I began teaching myself to read classical Nahuatl about two years ago using
Lockhart's "Nahuatl As Written".  I also own the Campbell and Karttunen
"Foundation Course" notebooks, and they are excellent, too.  However, one
advantage of Lockhart's book is that he gets you into reading Colonial era
documents from the very start - a plus for those who hope to study the
copious manuscripts that survive from this period.

Another suggestion: find someone near you with whom you can study,
preferably one with some experience with the language.  I was fortunate
enough to get connected with Galen Brokaw and Pablo Garcia, both former
students of Joe Campbell.  For me learning is easier with others, not to
mention more fun.

Here are some web links you might find useful:
http://www.macehualli.org/
http://www2.potsdam.edu/schwaljf/Nahuatl/
http://whp.uoregon.edu/projects.html
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahuatllessons/INL-00.html


On another note: why are you interested in learning Nahuatl?  I'd love to
hear your story.  Good luck!  Once you've been bitten by the bug, there's
no turning back!

Ben Leeming
Framingham, MA

_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From campbel at indiana.edu  Sat Aug 25 18:26:45 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:26:45 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.142645.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Owentzin,

   ...just my 2 cents worth off the top of my head -- in spite of the 
fact that I consult the Andrews Grammar many times every day, I can't 
imagine using it for entry into Nahuatl, particularly without a 
teacher.  Thelma Sullivan's grammar, particularly together with 
Carochi, seems to me to be an easy way to accumulate enough familiarity 
with the language so that one can read Andrews with more profit.
   Andrews' presentation of the language aims at a much deeper 
theoretical view of the language, in a model of grammar that is simply 
*his*.  His presentation is not like the presentation of grammatical 
reasoning among linguists trained in the second half of the last 
century -- namely, pulling the reader along with
*reasons* for believing the forms that he posits as basic and *reasons* 
for believing his lines of derivation.  The reader is expected to 
believe all the details because they are *declared*.  I have found (in 
both the first edition and the revised one) that in cases where I might 
not go along with his explanation on first, second, and third reading, 
I later found support for his point of view in some other part of the 
grammar.  This leads to some increase in faith in places where you are 
not initially convinced by his presentation.
   On the other hand, his "reach" for the depths of the grammar, a 
subtle picture of the soul of the language, sometimes stretches beyond 
what is supported by the observable facts.  This would lead some people 
to think of parts of the description to leave the arena of "science" 
and cross the border into "religion".

   To shorten a story that threatens to become too long, my personal 
leaning would be to start with Sullivan and Carochi.  ...and proceed 
with Andrews later.

I am sure that you will enjoy all of the time you dedicate to Nahuatl.

Joe

Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:

> Listeros,
>
> I have been attempting to learn without a teacher and have accumulated
> several books, Andrews Grammar and workbook, Kartunen, Carocci and finally
> Thelma Sullivan. I can read Sullivan but find that it does not follow all
> Andrews NNC and VNC patterns.
>
> I am learning from Thelma Sullivan and would like some assurance that this
> will not set me on a path that leads to future failure by not following
> correct grammar.
>
> I would like to have some offers of help via the web; help anyone?
>
> --
> We are connected
>
> Owen
>



_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From rich_photos at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 25 22:49:59 2007
From: rich_photos at yahoo.com (rick dosan)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:49:59 -0700
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20070825142645.87671d980s4wwggo@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.154959.0700.RICHPHOTOS@YAHOO.COM>

What about starting through Michel Launey's Introducción a la lengua y la literatura náhuatl?
  -Richard D

"

       
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. 
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From ECOLING at aol.com  Sat Aug 25 23:25:35 2007
From: ECOLING at aol.com (Lloyd Anderson)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 19:25:35 EDT
Subject: Validity of chronicles?
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.192535.EDT.>

What is the status of scholarship on the validity of the chronicles?
Can some *part* of Nigel Davies's approach be supported which
takes the different year names from different sources (or sometimes
mixed in a single source, Davies thought partly distinguished by
time period) to reflect different calendars, for example Tenochca
vs. Texcocan ?

Has anyone attempted to revisit Edmonson's _Book of the Year_
and reconstruct as much as possible of the material without great
leaps which most of the profession does not go along with?

Have there been other discoveries which help to confirm or
disconfirm claims in native sources, archaeological or in
Nahua manuscripts, for example.

Some of the above published?   Citations?
Scholars most actively working on these topics just now,
or recently?

Thanks for any help,
Lloyd Anderson
Ecological Linguistics
ecoling at aol.com


**************************************
 Get a sneak peek of the 
all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From rcs218 at psu.edu  Sun Aug 26 03:06:26 2007
From: rcs218 at psu.edu (ROBERT SCHWALLER)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:06:26 -0400
Subject: Validity of chronicles?
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.230626.0400.RCS218@PSU.EDU>

Although it has been a while since I looked through it, one of the best
multi-disciplinary approaches to many of these texts, especially the
pictorial sources, is Stories in red and black : pictorial histories of the
Aztecs and Mixtecs 
by Elizabeth Boone, c. 2000. As I recall she does try to reconcile differences
between varies narratives using archaeological as well as historic
sources. It is certainly a good place to start looking for current
research into those questions.



Rob Schwaller


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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sun Aug 26 12:16:44 2007
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 08:16:44 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20070825142645.87671d980s4wwggo@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.AUG.2007.081644.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Owen:

I would say Joe's comments are right on the money as far Andrews goes. 
At the same time, I'd like to add that using his and Frances 
Karttunen's introductory Nahuatl books, and then bolstering them with 
Sullivan's book, would be the best approach I'm aware. I've used Joe's 
and Fran's book in my university classes to great advantage.

I should point out, too, that Sullivan occasionally goes off the track 
in some of her grammatical analyses, which is not that case with Joe's 
and Fran's work. Although theirs was put together rather quickly for a 
summer course at UT-Austin (I think), it is nicely laid out, coherent. 
And you can progress very far with it on your own.

And then, with Sullivan's work at your side, you can see all the great 
examples of grammatical forms that she draws from the classics. Those 
examples are, in my estimation, the cream of her work, pedagogically 
speaking, as they give you grammar *in real native speaker contexts*.

Michael



Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> Owentzin,
>
>   ...just my 2 cents worth off the top of my head -- in spite of the
> fact that I consult the Andrews Grammar many times every day, I can't
> imagine using it for entry into Nahuatl, particularly without a
> teacher.  Thelma Sullivan's grammar, particularly together with
> Carochi, seems to me to be an easy way to accumulate enough
> familiarity with the language so that one can read Andrews with more
> profit.
>   Andrews' presentation of the language aims at a much deeper
> theoretical view of the language, in a model of grammar that is
> simply *his*.  His presentation is not like the presentation of
> grammatical reasoning among linguists trained in the second half of
> the last century -- namely, pulling the reader along with
> *reasons* for believing the forms that he posits as basic and
> *reasons* for believing his lines of derivation.  The reader is
> expected to believe all the details because they are *declared*.  I
> have found (in both the first edition and the revised one) that in
> cases where I might not go along with his explanation on first,
> second, and third reading, I later found support for his point of
> view in some other part of the grammar.  This leads to some increase
> in faith in places where you are not initially convinced by his
> presentation.
>   On the other hand, his "reach" for the depths of the grammar, a
> subtle picture of the soul of the language, sometimes stretches
> beyond what is supported by the observable facts.  This would lead
> some people to think of parts of the description to leave the arena
> of "science" and cross the border into "religion".
>
>   To shorten a story that threatens to become too long, my personal
> leaning would be to start with Sullivan and Carochi.  ...and proceed
> with Andrews later.
>
> I am sure that you will enjoy all of the time you dedicate to Nahuatl.
>
> Joe
>
> Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:
>
>> Listeros,
>>
>> I have been attempting to learn without a teacher and have accumulated
>> several books, Andrews Grammar and workbook, Kartunen, Carocci and finally
>> Thelma Sullivan. I can read Sullivan but find that it does not follow all
>> Andrews NNC and VNC patterns.
>>
>> I am learning from Thelma Sullivan and would like some assurance that this
>> will not set me on a path that leads to future failure by not following
>> correct grammar.
>>
>> I would like to have some offers of help via the web; help anyone?
>>
>> --
>> We are connected
>>
>> Owen
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>





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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sun Aug 26 17:21:51 2007
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:21:51 -0500
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
Message-ID: <SUN.26.AUG.2007.122151.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

More for Owen:

 

To get my first footing in early colonial Nahuatl, I used Campbell's and
Karttunen's Foundation Course with Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary, and
had Andrews' Introduction to Classical Nahuatl (1st. ed.) close at hand. All
three use the same orthography, which restores missing glottal stops and
long vowels. My only problem with the Foundation Course is the blending of
colonial and modern forms, but its clarity and didactic virtues more than
offset this aspect. Of course Molina's work, particularly his vocabularies
of 1571 and Carochi's 1645 Arte are indispensable. Lockhart's Nahuatl as
Written is full of invaluable advice, and goes well with his critical
edition of Carochi. I agree with Joe that Andrews has a profound vision of
Nahuatl grammar, that he's better at making rules that explaining them, and
that a beginner would have a rough time digesting his grammar, particularly
in its second, more radically independent edition. I differ with my
distinguished colleagues on the utility of Sullivan's Compendium as a
beginning text. Michael mentions her problems with grammatical analyses, but
the real drawback to this grammar is that its phonological foundations are
deeply flawed, particularly regarding vowels, the consonant /w/ (often
written with u, v, uh, or hu in colonial sources), and the consonant /kw/
(written cu, qu, uc, or cuh in the sources). Sullivan often reads the letter
u in uh and cuh as a vowel /u/, which really didn't exist, except as an
allophone of /o/. This reflects the state of the art in the mid-twentieth
century, which was surpassed in the 1970s with Andrews's and Launeys'
grammars. Sullivan's Compendium, in fact, was born outdated, since it was
first published (in Spanish) in 1976, a year after the first edition of
Andrews' Introduction. If one began with Sullivan, one would have to unlearn
a lot of things later on, and unlearning can be harder than learning.

 

However colonial Nahuatl is first approached, I recommend having a big pile
of sources at hand, then focusing on one grammar and a dictionary that uses
the same (or similar)orthography as basic sources, the rest standing by as
references for specific questions. This may be done with Campbell/Karttunen
(Foundation Course) and Karttunen (Analytical Dictionary). A good
alternative, I think, would be Lockhart's Nahuatl as Written together with
his edition of Carochi and Molina as the main dictionary, although with this
method the student would focus less on phonological precision and more on
practical matters.

 

Bibliography

 

Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, Austin/London,
University of Texas Press, 1975.

 

Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition,
Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003.

 

Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, workbook,
Austin/London, University of Texas Press, 1975.

 

Andrews, J. Richard, Workbook for introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised
edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003.

 

Campbell, R. Joe; Karttunen, Frances, Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar,
volume 1: text and exercises, xerox edition, Missoula, The University of
Montana, 1989.

 

Campbell, R. Joe; Karttunen, Frances, Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar,
volume 2: vocabulary and key, xerox edition, Missoula, The University of
Montana, 1989.

 

Carochi, Horacio, Arte de la lengua mexicana con la declaración de los
adverbios della, facsímil de la ed. de 1645, Miguel León-Portilla, editor,
Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas/Instituto de
Investigaciones Históricas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1983.

 

Carochi, Horacio, Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its
adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, translator and editor, Stanford/Los Angeles,
Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications, 2001.

 

Karttunen, Frances, An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, 2nd. ed., Norman,
University of Oklahoma Press, 1992.

 

Launey, Michel, Introduction à la langue et à la littérature Aztèques, tome
1 : grammaire, facsimile of the 1979 ed., Paris, L’Harmattan, 1995.

 

Lockhart, James, Nahuatl as written, lessons in older written nahuatl, with
copious examples and texts, Stanford/Los Ángeles, Stanford University
Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications, 2001.

 

Molina, Alonso de, Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y mexicana y
castellana, 3rd. facsimile ed. of the 1880 ed., intoductory study by Miguel
León-Portilla, Mexico, Editorial Porrúa, 1992.

 

Sullivan, Thelma D., Compendio de la gramática náhuatl, 1a. reimpresión de
la 1a. ed., México, Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, Universidad
Nacional Autónoma de México, 1983.

 

Sullivan, Thelma D., Compendio de la gramática náhuatl, 2a. reimpresión de
la 2a. ed., México, Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, Universidad
Nacional Autónoma de México, 1998.

 

Observations:

 

Facsimile versions of early all of the colonial grammars, vocabularies, and
related sources are on one compact disc, available form the Digibis website:
Obras clásicas sobre la lengua náhuatl, digital ed., Ascensión Hernández de
León-Portilla, editor, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre
Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998.

 

I wish I had a copy of Joe Campbell's dictionary. All I have are a few
notecards I made at the Princeton University Library five years ago. Joe, I
think the time is ripe for a second edition, with all the recent interest in
Nahuatl! If not as a book, at least on CD! Campbell, R. Joe, A morphological
dictionary of classical nahuatl, a morpheme index to the Vocabulario en
lengua mexicana y castellana of fray Alonso de Molina, Madison, Hispanic
Seminary of Medieval Studies, 1985.
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Mon Aug 27 17:03:00 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:03:00 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <1552.137.143.153.77.1188063079.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.AUG.2007.130300.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Nocnihuan,

   Another member of the Nahuat-l list and I have corresponded about
the Andrews grammar and he suggested that I contribute some of my
observations to the list.  This is an attempt to communicate some of
my disorganized notes and worries to the group and encourage
discussion of the issues.

   I would preface these notes with a few general statements:

1)   Anyone who is seriously interested in Nahuatl should read Fran's
    review article on twelve publications (including Andrews'
    grammar):
    Frances Karttunen, "Nahuatl for the Twenty-First Century",
    Ethnohistory, Vol. 52, No. 2, pp. 449-477 (2005).

     A PDF version is available for download:
      http://ethnohistory.dukejournals.org/content/vol52/issue2/


2)   In spite of any worries and criticisms that I have about his
    grammars (the first edition and the considerably revised edition),
    I admire his work and feel fortunate to have gained from using it.

3.   Most of comments pertain to my own interest in Nahuatl, focused
    of the details of word formation.  As a "grammarian" I hope that
    our statements about morphology will enlighten people about
    the way the language "really" works; I do not consider our job to be
    making arbitrary hypotheses about how the language "might"
    work.  I think that our statements about grammatical mechanisms
    should be backed up by some kind of evidence.
      About forty years ago, one of my iconic experiences was hearing
    about one of my respected colleagues teaching a linguistics class;
    his reponse to a graduate student's solution to a problem was "That
    has     nothing to say for it except for the fact that it *works*."
    He was making the point that our solutions aim at some degree
    of "truth", not at being just *one* of the candidates of
    possible answers.


* * * * * * * * *

Some specific quibbles (all page numbers refer to the revised edition):
I will enclose quotes from Andrews' grammar in ((...)).


* * * * * * * * *

p. 574.

  ((ohhuia: to be like a road, i.e., to pose a danger, to be
dangerous/difficult...))

It might be that danger and road are related concepts in Nahuatl,
but there is no reason given to believe this.  Morphological
relationships rest mainly on two kinds of evidence: 1) form (i.e.,
the phonological shape, and 2) function (i.e., semantic content,
meaning).

* * * * * * * * *

p. 189.

((Among the destockal verbstems with  ni  as the stem formative are
two that are no longer extant but serve as the source for derived
stems (see #27.4.3):

*po-o:-ni > *(po:-ni) = to emit smoke

*to-o:-ni > *(to:-ni) = to run))

[[referring, respectively, to  popo:ca  and  toto:ca]]

This is based on the behavior of verbs like  pozo:ni  and patla:ni
that have intransitive reduplicated forms (in addition to their
normal ones) of:  popozo:ca  and  papatla:ca.
While one certainly wants to attend to possibly relevant data such
as the mechanisms involved in these latter verbs, it is *not* the
case that any two identical syllables in sequence are necessarily to
be interpreted as due to the process of reduplication.  It is
entirely possible that  popo:ca is either 1) lexically just what it
appears to be (i.e.  popo:ca) or 2) a reduplication of  po:ca.

* * * * * * * * *

p. 436

(under the topic: particle-look NNCs)

((cue:l ... it is in the manner of a crease; i.e., briefly suddenly,
quickly

cue:lihui = to become bent/folded))

I believe that semantic relationships may be hard to see because
there may be a succession of "bridges" or because one's culture and
the semantics of his language is so different from the language
being analyzed, but, in the absence of some explicit rationale as to
why "crease" and "suddenly" are might be related, this claim leaves
me dubious.  I don't send my bank account number to someone in
Canada or Germany who promises to reward me with millions of dollars
from unclaimed funds in a Nigerian bank account.


* * * * * * * * *

p. 441

((ichtaca (steal)  <  ich-tequi
    in the manner of one who cuts maguey leaves))

Aside from the unaccounted for difference between -taca and the
well-known verb  tequi, is there some cultural evidence to lead one
to believe that the language codifies a relationship between theft
of maguey leaves and stealing?


* * * * * * * * *

p. 283

((unique noun stems as fillers

*(te:l)-li + (po:ch)-tli-, "incense smoke" = (te:l-po:ch)-tli-,
  "a youth, young man"))

If one were looking for an example to teach morphology, this one
would be a highly ranked candidate for what to reject.  One of the
elements is unattested with no semantic connection; the other
element matches the *form* for "incense smoke", but has no semantic
connection to the notion of "youth".


* * * * * * * * *

I will have some more to add, but getting it ready will take time... |8-)

Iztayohmeh,

Joe

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Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Aug 28 15:05:55 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:05:55 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.110555.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>


-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Tue Aug 28 16:10:14 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:10:14 -0700
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <46D439D3.7010003@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.091014.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

On Aug 28, 2007, at 8:05 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:
> The top ten indigenous groups were:
> 	Náhuatl        2,563,000
> 	Maya            1,490,000
> 	Zapoteco        785,000
> 	Mixteco           764,000
> 	Otomí               566,000
> 	Tzetzal            547,000
> 	Tzotzil              514,000
> 	Totonaca        410,000
> 	Mazateco       339,000
> 	Chol                274,000
Looking at this strikes a question that has been in my mind.
I work as a spanish english medical and legal interpreter.  In the  
course of the last 18 months I have run into many people speaking one  
of the mayan dialects, Yucatec and Quiche being the most common,  
Zapotec and Mixtec as well as a few who speak Cora and Tarascan (or  
was it Tarahumara or was it Huichol *NW mountain range*?).  But never  
have I found people who are bilingual spanish nahuatl.  I wondered if  
it was because most nahuatl speakers ARE bilingual and thus I don't  
know about it.  But people chat with me and I find out from names and  
in general conversation about where they've come from.  The other  
explanation that comes to mind is that the nahua don't want to come  
to the USA... but then, why would the maya come in such numbers?
This is the rankest curiosity; since I am interested in learning to  
speak nahuatl, I've been paying attention and asking questions.  Does  
anybody have a hypothesis?
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Aug 28 16:56:09 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:56:09 -0400
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <9FE732FD-95CB-404B-9AB3-077E9B701E89@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.125609.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

A month does not go by that someone from around the US contacts me to 
try to find a Nahuatl interpreter for some proceeding.  So in fact there 
are mono-lingual Nahuatl speakers here in the US.  I would, however, 
posit on the basis of no empirical data, that many of the Nahuatl 
speakers here are also bi-lingual in Spanish and as such when confronted 
with a problem are forced to rely on Spanish, since the courts and 
offices have Spanish interpreters.  Similarly, I know for a fact hat the 
prisons of California and Arizona have significant Nahuatl speaking 
populations because I am continually contacted by other prisoners, and 
by guards, about how to learn the language.  So, I know that there are 
fairly large numbers of Nahuatl speakers here in the US.



Kier Salmon wrote:
> I wondered if it was because most nahuatl speakers ARE bilingual and 
> thus I don't know about it.  But people chat with me and I find out 
> from names and in general conversation about where they've come from.  
> The other explanation that comes to mind is that the nahua don't want 
> to come to the USA... but then, why would the maya come in such numbers?
> This is the rankest curiosity; since I am interested in learning to 
> speak nahuatl, I've been paying attention and asking questions.  Does 
> anybody have a hypothesis?
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From micc2 at cox.net  Tue Aug 28 17:05:39 2007
From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2 at cox.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:05:39 -0700
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.100539.0700.>

Piali compaleh huan comaleh,

I have worked for a short time interpreting for  a few Nahuatl defendants in court (mostly immigration cases).  The men I have worked with have come from the sierra de Puebla, and Guerrero. Based in this tiny sample,  It seems that most Nahuatl workers first go to Mexico City, Matamoros, Nuevo Laredo,or Ciudad Juarez.. Here in San Diego county, there is a large Mixteco community, as there is in L.A. county. I know of only one family of Nahuatl speakers. they came here from Guerrero. I also know there is one Huichol artisan that lives here. 

Perhaps until now, the Nahuatl speakers lived in more economically sustainable areas than the Mixteco and Maya. i have only met one Purepecha speaking immigrant here in San Diego, and a few Yoremi.


Mario
www.mexicayotl.org





---- Kier Salmon <k_salmon at ipinc.net> wrote: 
> On Aug 28, 2007, at 8:05 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:
> > The top ten indigenous groups were:
> > 	Náhuatl        2,563,000
> > 	Maya            1,490,000
> > 	Zapoteco        785,000
> > 	Mixteco           764,000
> > 	Otomí               566,000
> > 	Tzetzal            547,000
> > 	Tzotzil              514,000
> > 	Totonaca        410,000
> > 	Mazateco       339,000
> > 	Chol                274,000
> Looking at this strikes a question that has been in my mind.
> I work as a spanish english medical and legal interpreter.  In the  
> course of the last 18 months I have run into many people speaking one  
> of the mayan dialects, Yucatec and Quiche being the most common,  
> Zapotec and Mixtec as well as a few who speak Cora and Tarascan (or  
> was it Tarahumara or was it Huichol *NW mountain range*?).  But never  
> have I found people who are bilingual spanish nahuatl.  I wondered if  
> it was because most nahuatl speakers ARE bilingual and thus I don't  
> know about it.  But people chat with me and I find out from names and  
> in general conversation about where they've come from.  The other  
> explanation that comes to mind is that the nahua don't want to come  
> to the USA... but then, why would the maya come in such numbers?
> This is the rankest curiosity; since I am interested in learning to  
> speak nahuatl, I've been paying attention and asking questions.  Does  
> anybody have a hypothesis?
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Tue Aug 28 17:12:41 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:12:41 -0700
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <46D453A9.7030300@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.101241.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Ah!  I've noticed that certain states of the US attract more people  
from certain states of Mexico and Central America.  In Oregon, where  
I lived until 3 weeks ago, our hispanic population is composed of  
Michoacanecos, Yucatecos and Guatemalan people... about 80% with  
vanishingly smaller proportions from a few other states.  So, it  
probably is that the Willamette Valley doesn't attract that  
particular set of people.
But here in Seattle a large Oaxaqueñan population seems to be the norm.
I know the interpreter service I've sub-contracted for does not have  
nahuatl as an option, but does have 4 varieties of Maya.  Thanks!

On Aug 28, 2007, at 9:56 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:

> A month does not go by that someone from around the US contacts me  
> to try to find a Nahuatl interpreter for some proceeding.  So in  
> fact there are mono-lingual Nahuatl speakers here in the US.  I  
> would, however, posit on the basis of no empirical data, that many  
> of the Nahuatl speakers here are also bi-lingual in Spanish and as  
> such when confronted with a problem are forced to rely on Spanish,  
> since the courts and offices have Spanish interpreters.  Similarly,  
> I know for a fact hat the prisons of California and Arizona have  
> significant Nahuatl speaking populations because I am continually  
> contacted by other prisoners, and by guards, about how to learn the  
> language.  So, I know that there are fairly large numbers of  
> Nahuatl speakers here in the US.
>
>
>
> Kier Salmon wrote:
>> I wondered if it was because most nahuatl speakers ARE bilingual  
>> and thus I don't know about it.  But people chat with me and I  
>> find out from names and in general conversation about where  
>> they've come from.  The other explanation that comes to mind is  
>> that the nahua don't want to come to the USA... but then, why  
>> would the maya come in such numbers?
>> This is the rankest curiosity; since I am interested in learning  
>> to speak nahuatl, I've been paying attention and asking  
>> questions.  Does anybody have a hypothesis?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> -- 
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Aug 28 17:12:34 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:12:34 -0400
Subject: Subject:,
 Re: [Nahuat-l] Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.131234.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

From:  micc2 at cox.net
Date:
 Tue, 28 Aug 2007


Piali compaleh huan comaleh,

I have worked for a short time interpreting for a few Nahuatl defendants in
court (mostly immigration cases). The men I have worked with have come from
the Sierra de Puebla, and Guerrero. Based in this tiny sample, It seems
that most Nahuatl workers first go to Mexico City, Matamoros, Nuevo
Laredo,or Ciudad Juarez.. Here in San Diego county, there is a large Mixteco
community, as there is in L.A. county. I know of only one family of Nahuatl
speakers. they came here from Guerrero. I also know there is one Huichol
artisan that lives here.

Perhaps until now, the Nahuatl speakers lived in more economically
sustainable areas than the Mixteco and Maya. I have only met one Purepecha
speaking immigrant here in San Diego, and a few Yoremi.


Mario
www.mexicayotl.org

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From idiez at mac.com  Tue Aug 28 17:49:19 2007
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:49:19 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak
 Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <46D439D3.7010003@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.124919.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

John,
That map is deceiving. It reports to show the number of indigenous  
people, not the number of native speakers. Don´t ask me what criteria  
they used to identify these people (From the perspective of the  
native speakers I work with, being a native speaker is a requirement  
for claiming indigenous identity. This is obviously very different  
from US indigenous identity). If you want a more reliable number of  
native speakers, go to
http://www.inegi.gob.mx/est/default.aspx?c=2397
John


El 28/08/2007, a las 10:05 AM, John F. Schwaller escribió:

>
> -- 
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>
>
> De: David Brye <davebrye at gemtel.com.mx>
> Fecha: 27 de agosto de 2007 03:58:42 PM GMT-05:00
> Para: Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Asunto: Re: [Aztlan] Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl
>
>
> Around 1998, the Secretaría de Educación Pública and CONACULTA of  
> the Mexican government published a map of La Diversidad Cultural de  
> México: Los Pueblos Indígenas y sus 62 Idiomas based on 1997  
> estimates of the indigenous population of the country. Normally, 62  
> is given as the number of indigenous groups officially recognized  
> by the government. I'm not clear on what is meant by autonomous in  
> this context.
>
> The top ten indigenous groups were:
> 	Náhuatl        2,563,000
> 	Maya            1,490,000
> 	Zapoteco        785,000
> 	Mixteco           764,000
> 	Otomí               566,000
> 	Tzetzal            547,000
> 	Tzotzil              514,000
> 	Totonaca        410,000
> 	Mazateco       339,000
> 	Chol                274,000
>
> The 16 smallest groups of the 62 number less than 1,000 each.
>
> On Aug 22, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Webmaster wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> While I was on vacation I learned the Mexico has over 100 (gov  
>> recognized)
>> indigenous peoples with appx. 30 of them autonomous.
>>
>> Of these autonomous peoples, does anyone know how many speak  
>> predominantly
>> Nahua?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>> Un saludo,
>>
>> Daniel Maldonado
>> Webmaster
>> http://chicanoforums.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From amoxtli at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 28 17:41:47 2007
From: amoxtli at earthlink.net (Walter O. Koenig)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:41:47 -0700
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <46D453A9.7030300@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.104147.0700.AMOXTLI@EARTHLINK.NET>

I was recently contacted by a prisoner from Arizona who wrote a  
letter in excellent english asking me for Nahuatl resources. I have  
heard from several sources that prisoners were using Nahuatl to  
communicate with one another so the guards would not understand them.  
In fact, I know someone who was asked by prison authorities not to  
provide Nahuatl resources. Does anyone know more about this, and if  
you have received letters from prisoners how do you respond to them?  
The prisoner evidently got my address from the Nahua Newsletter.

Best Wishes,

Walter O. Koenig




On Aug 28, 2007, at 9:56 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:

> A month does not go by that someone from around the US contacts me  
> to try to find a Nahuatl interpreter for some proceeding.  So in  
> fact there are mono-lingual Nahuatl speakers here in the US.  I  
> would, however, posit on the basis of no empirical data, that many  
> of the Nahuatl speakers here are also bi-lingual in Spanish and as  
> such when confronted with a problem are forced to rely on Spanish,  
> since the courts and offices have Spanish interpreters.  Similarly,  
> I know for a fact hat the prisons of California and Arizona have  
> significant Nahuatl speaking populations because I am continually  
> contacted by other prisoners, and by guards, about how to learn the  
> language.  So, I know that there are fairly large numbers of  
> Nahuatl speakers here in the US.
>
>
>
> Kier Salmon wrote:
>> I wondered if it was because most nahuatl speakers ARE bilingual  
>> and thus I don't know about it.  But people chat with me and I  
>> find out from names and in general conversation about where  
>> they've come from.  The other explanation that comes to mind is  
>> that the nahua don't want to come to the USA... but then, why  
>> would the maya come in such numbers?
>> This is the rankest curiosity; since I am interested in learning  
>> to speak nahuatl, I've been paying attention and asking  
>> questions.  Does anybody have a hypothesis?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> -- 
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Aug 28 17:55:42 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:55:42 -0400
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <AB61E6FE-ADAF-4C07-BADC-F40667613C78@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.135542.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Over the 10 or so years that I have been making Campbell and Karttunen 
available I'd say that maybe 1/3 of the requests come from prisons.  Of 
those 90% are from inmates, the rest from guards.  Beyond that I do not 
provide tutoring services or bibliographic services.  Prisoners ask me 
for all kinds of things to help them learn the language, but I am simply 
not equipped to do that, nor do I have the time in my schedule.  I 
politely decline the opportunity to send them more materials or to 
answer their specific grammatical questions.




Walter O. Koenig wrote:
> I was recently contacted by a prisoner from Arizona who wrote a letter 
> in excellent english asking me for Nahuatl resources. I have heard 
> from several sources that prisoners were using Nahuatl to communicate 
> with one another so the guards would not understand them. In fact, I 
> know someone who was asked by prison authorities not to provide 
> Nahuatl resources. Does anyone know more about this, and if you have 
> received letters from prisoners how do you respond to them? The 
> prisoner evidently got my address from the Nahua Newsletter.
>
> Best Wishes,


-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Aug 30 18:06:39 2007
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:06:39 -0500
Subject: La ense�anza de las lenguas ind�ge nas en M�xico
Message-ID: <THU.30.AUG.2007.130639.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Listerotzitzin:
 
Volviendo a la discusión sobre la enseñanza de las lenguas indígenas en
México, hoy me llegó la convocatoria que se reproduce a continuación. En el
preámbulo hay un buen balance del estado de la cuestión.
 
Saludos,
 
David Wright
 

Contacto: uspelci at upn.mx
........................

UPN-CIESAS-UNAM-INALI-DGEI

Fecha: 21 y 22 de febrero 2008

Sede: UPN-Ajusco. D.F.



Convocan al

1º Encuentro Nacional de Enseñanza de Lenguas Indígenas e
Investigación Aplicada

Problemática:

A casi treinta años de la institución del modelo bilingüe en las escuelas
del subsistema de Educación indígena y de las primeras investigaciones sobre
las prácticas de estas escuelas, se han desarrollado una serie de
experiencias, de grupo o aisladas, que no han logrado aún generalizarse de
manera amplia. Estas representan, sin embargo, un logro importante a partir
del cual es posible hacer avanzar la implantación del modelo, en un momento
en el cual las necesidades de atención de la diversidad lingüística se han
ampliado. En efecto, la creación de la Coordinación Intercultural Bilingüe
en el 2000, la Ley de los Derechos Lingüísticos de los Pueblos Indígenas
publicada en el 2003, y las recomendaciones internacionales para la
atención de los derechos de las poblaciones originarias, han ampliado el
marco de acción para la difusión, la enseñanza, el mantenimiento y el
rescate de las lenguas habladas en el país.

La creación de universidades, bachilleratos y secundarias interculturales,
la atención educativa de las poblaciones indígenas migrantes y la
obligación de instituciones públicas de contar con servicios de traducción
para ejercer sus funciones, tienden a la ampliación de los espacios
comunicativos para las lenguas indígenas y con ello la necesidad de
desarrollar una base sólida de investigación aplicada a su enseñanza.

Al mismo tiempo, la investigación sobre la aplicación de los modelos
bilingües se ha desarrollado de manera amplia en los últimos veinte años
para las lenguas de prestigio y las lenguas minoritarias de los países
desarrollados en los cuales las necesidades de los intercambios
internacionales, la constitución de nuevos conglomerados de naciones como la
CEE, las fuertes corrientes migatorias y las reivindicaciones de los grupos
minoritarios al interior de estas, han obligado a los sistemas educativos a
ofrecer una enseñanza eficaz de las lenguas y a resolver los problemas que
les plantea la constitución de clases multiculturales y multiétnicas. A
todo esto se unen las últimas recomendaciones internacionales que, en
materia de política lingüística, han planteado la necesidad de preservar las
lenguas. Estas recomendaciones se basan en la concepción según la cual las
lenguas del mundo son la expresión de culturas que interactúan con el medio
natural y social. En esta perspectiva se consideran como nichos
lingüísticos. La preservación de lenguas y culturas, así como su
conocimiento se consideran como requisitos para poder proponer proyectos de
desarrollo sustentable tomando en cuenta la generalidad de recursos tanto
naturales como sociales. (Calvet Louis-Jean, 1999, Pour une écologie des
langues du monde, Ed. Plon, Paris)

Los estudios sobre bilingüismo han desarrollado una serie de
conceptualizaciones, pero en su definición más general se refieren al sujeto
que posee dos códigos sin plantearse el nivel de manejo de éstos y lo
abordan desde perspectivas distintas, cognitivas, sociales, individuales, de
orden de adquisición, etc., según el tipo de intervención que se requiera.
Sin embargo lo que es interesante resaltar es que estas investigaciones han
mostrado que el aprendizaje temprano de dos lenguas desarrolla competencias
particulares como una mayor posibilidad de abstracción del hecho debido a
una mayor conciencia de las operaciones metalingüísticas por la percepción
de la arbitrariedad de los signos lingüísticos. (Sánchez L P. Y Rodrígues,
1997, El bilingüismo. Bases para la intervención psicológica, Ed. Síntesis,
Madrid). Es decir que el niño bilingüe aprende tempranamente que los nombres
con los que designamos a las cosas son convencionales puesto que nombrados
de manera diferente en una lengua y otra y en ese sentido desarrolla un
potencial para el manejo de los lenguajes convencionales, como las
matemáticas. Los estudios llevados a cabo por el lingüista Jim Cummins han
sido conclusivos en este sentido. (Cummins, Jim, 2002, Lenguaje, poder y
pedagogía: niños y niñas bilingües entre dos fuegos, Ministerio de
Educación, Cultura y Deporte : Morata, Madrid)

Sin embargo, los niños indígenas, siendo bilingües, presentan los grados de
rendimiento escolar más bajos del sistema educativo nacional. Las
explicaciones que se han dado a esta situación son múltiples, podemos
resumir diciendo de manera muy esquemática que la situación de minoría
lingüística y de desvalorización de las lenguas indígenas ha llevado a una
práctica castellanizadora en la cual la lengua materna es desplazada por la
segunda lengua. En ese sentido, el ideal promovido es tender hacia el
monolingüismo y de ahí, una imposibilidad de desarrollo de las competencias
que aporta el ser bilingüe.

La situación hace aún más necesario el desarrollo de investigaciones tanto
sobre los efectos del bilingüismo en el aprendizaje escolar como para el
desarrollo de metodologías de enseñanza apropiadas al sujeto bilingüe en el
contexto de las lenguas indígenas. Esto define la particularidad de un
campo, en el que aún queda mucho por hacer, y que presenta problemáticas que
conciernen a la estandarización de las lenguas y a la falta de documentación
sobre las características estructurales de éstas.

Sin embargo, la investigación para la aplicación e implantación del modelo
bilingüe dirigido a la población hablante de una lengua indígena se enfrenta
a la escasa oferta de las instituciones de educación superior para la
especialización en la educación bilingüe. Las experiencias se han
desarrollado como proyectos independientes de estas instituciones y los
intercambios son aún limitados por lo que su generalización hacia el resto
de las escuelas se da de manera lenta. Por otro lado, la investigación
necesita plantearse en la dirección de los estudios sobre los modelos
bilingües desarrollados a nivel mundial, conjugando enfoques
interdisciplinarios, fundamentalmente entre la antropología, la lingüística
y la pedagogía para adaptarlos al contexto de las lenguas indígenas, pero
sobre todo es importante la implicación de los propios hablantes de las
lenguas, bilingües ellos mismos, para contrarrestar en las investigaciones,
la perspectiva metodológica que da la influencia de la lengua nacional y la
tendencia al monolingüismo. La aplicación de los enfoques desarrollados para
las lenguas mayoritarias a las lenguas minorizadas puede, cuando se plantea
en una perspectiva de relatividad lingüística, enriquecer e incluso
transformar el campo de la didáctica de la lengua al generar nuevos datos
sobre fenómenos lingüísticos y comunicativos.

El intercambio entre las experiencias concretas y la investigación puede
generar un verdadero espacio de desarrollo de la investigación aplicada al
campo de la enseñanza de lenguas y en este sentido incidir en el sistema
educativo nacional al proyectar métodos de enseñanza y aprendizaje de
lenguas, generados en las escuelas bilingües, hacia las escuelas monolingües
para desarrollar las competencias bilingües en la mayoría de la población.

La misión de las instituciones de educación superior, de cumplir con las
funciones sustantivas de docencia, investigación y difusión representa una
oportunidad en este I Seminario de Enseñanza y aprendizaje de Lenguas
Indígenas e Investigación Aplicada, a fin de presentar de manera conjunta,
tanto avances y resultados de investigaciones como problemas y caminos
trazados por la xperiencia de los interesados en la enseñanza de las lenguas
indígenas.

Desde esta perspectiva se proponen los siguientes objetivos:
* Conocer avances y resultados de investigación aplicada, problemas y
necesidades de experiencias educativas relacionadas con la enseñanza de
lenguas indígenas.
* Establecer contacto entre agentes vinculados a la investigación aplicada y
prácticas de enseñanza de lenguas indígenas en el marco de la educación
bilingüe.

A través de las siguientes mesas:
* Aplicaciones de Modelos Bilingües
* Enseñanza de la primera lengua (lengua indígena)
* Enseñanza de la segunda lengua (español y lenguas indígenas)
* Estandarización
* Interferencia lingüística

Conferencia Magistral: Dr. José Luis Iturrios Leza.

Fecha: 21 y 22 de febrero 2008

Sede: UPN-Ajusco. D.F.

La fecha límite para envío de resúmenes es el 30 de noviembre de 2007.

La dirección para el envío es: uspelci at upn.mx
Informes: 56 30 97 00 ext. 1308
Correo: uspelci at upn.mx

Se invita a los ponentes y asistentes a presentar materiales educativos para
organizar una exposición en la explanada de la universidad.

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From sylvia at famsi.org  Fri Aug 31 19:38:37 2007
From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:38:37 -0400
Subject: New at FAMSI--Grantee Reports; Informes y Traducciones
Message-ID: <FRI.31.AUG.2007.153837.0400.>

Hello Mesoamericanists,

New grantee research reports and translations posted at FAMSI website 
include:

The Naranjo Rescue Project: New Data from the Preclassic
Guatemala (2006)
by Barbara Arroyo.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06109/index.html

The Sociopolitical Configuration in the City of Q'um'arkaj: The
Palaces and Nimja or Long Houses of the Chinamit Nija'ib' (2006)
by Micaela Raquel Macario Calgua.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06044/index.html

The Household and Estate of a Mexica Lord: "Informacion de
dona Isabel de Moctezuma", Mexico (2006)
by Anastasia Kalyuta.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06045/index.html

Dieseldorff Collection: Ceramic Corpus of the Terminal Classic
Originating from Molds (2004)
by Monica Alejandra Perez Galindo.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/03074/index.html


Informes en Espanol:

Sistemas Hidraulicos en el Centro de Cancuen: Ritual, Reserva
y/o Drenaje? (2005)
por Tomas Jose Barrientos Quezada.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05082es/index.html

Las piedras verdes en el centro de Jalisco (2004)
por Lorenza Lopez Mestas Camberos.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/03083es/index.html


Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos del Ingles
al Espanol:

El Proyecto del Balsas Medio: Una Investigacion Sobre
Funcionalidad y Cronologia de la Ceramica (2006)
por Jennifer Meanwell.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06021es/index.html

Los Incensarios Efigie de Mayapan: Iconografia, Contexto y
Conexiones Externas (2005)
por Susan Milbrath.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05025es/index.html

Investigacion sobre Produccion de Gienes de Prestigio de Jade
en el Valle Medio del Motagua, Guatemala (2005)
por Erick T. Rochette.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05069es/index.html

Investigaciones Arqueologicas en Holmul, Guatemala (1999)
por Francisco Estrada-Belli.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/98010es/index.html

Saludos,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Aug  1 17:38:11 2007
From: silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx (Ignacio Silva)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 12:38:11 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 55, Issue 1
Message-ID: <WED.1.AUG.2007.123811.0500.SILVA171270@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

En nahuatl Flor del cielo se dice ILHUICAXOCHITL.

Saludos.

Nacho.
----- Original Message -----
From: <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org>
To: <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 55, Issue 1


> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
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>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Translation (Irene Padilla)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:31:20 -0700
> From: Irene Padilla <Irene.Padilla at fmc-na.com>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Translation
> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
> Message-ID:
> <OF8FFFD5FD.5689AA7F-ON88257329.0054438B-88257329.005542D6 at fmc-na.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> can someone please help me out. translate SKY FLOWER..
> Meaning????
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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Thu Aug  2 03:02:03 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 20:02:03 -0700
Subject: Flores y Nombres
In-Reply-To: <001801c7d462$bc7adac0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net>
Message-ID: <WED.1.AUG.2007.200203.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

On Aug 1, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Ignacio Silva wrote:
> En nahuatl Flor del cielo se dice ILHUICAXOCHITL.
>
Pense en mandar la siguente pregunta... pero al revisar mi  
ortografia, halle la respuesta....
Asi pues, me he preguntado por a?os, que es un Azcalxochitl?  se  
traduce como flor de hormiga, pero que flor es?  Lirio o sea el "Iris"

Y estando en esta tema... alguien sabe bien el significado de  
Cuitlahuac?
he encontrado, oro hundido, excremento, o pueblo de excremento, y oro  
de dios.  El hombre era un noble; no tiene sentido ese tipo de  
desglose...

?Como se hace busequeda en los archivos... ?
se me hace que esta pregunta seguro y ha sido preguntado antes.




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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Thu Aug  2 12:38:36 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:38:36 -0400
Subject: Flores y Nombres
In-Reply-To: <E0F406C6-8CCB-40EB-B2D6-AA15B3A9D5BC@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.083836.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Efectivamente, hemos hablado en la lista acerca del tema de cuitlahuac.  
Para hacer busqueda en los archivos de la lista es preciso irse a la 
pagina web:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/nahuat-l.html

Alla se puede hacer click en "Search the archives"

Se encuentra 12 ocasiones cuando esta palabra ocurrio en la lista.

Significa cuitlahuac "lugar de excremento"

El excremento era una cosa con gran valor para los Nahua.  Era el abono 
necesario para la productividad tremenda de los chinampas.  Tenia 
relaciones linguisticas con el oro y la plata (coztic teocuitlatl e 
iztac teocuitlatl)




Kier Salmon wrote:
>
> Y estando en esta tema... alguien sabe bien el significado de Cuitlahuac?
> he encontrado, oro hundido, excremento, o pueblo de excremento, y oro 
> de dios.  El hombre era un noble; no tiene sentido ese tipo de 
> desglose...
>
> ?Como se hace busequeda en los archivos... ?
> se me hace que esta pregunta seguro y ha sido preguntado antes.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From sylvia at famsi.org  Thu Aug  2 14:36:36 2007
From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 10:36:36 -0400
Subject: Grantee Reports, Informes & Traducciones en Espanol
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.103636.0400.>

Hello Mesoamericanists,

Announcing our newest grantee research reports posted at FAMSI website:

The Technology of Ancient Mesoamerican Mosaics: 
An Experimental Investigation of Alternative Super Glues (2006)
by Frances F. Berdan.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06015/index.html


Informe en Espanol:

Investigaciones Arqueologicas en la Region de Holmul, 
Peten, Guatemala (2004)
por Francisco Estrada-Belli.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/03103Ces/index.html


Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos del Ingles
al Espanol:

El Proyecto de Esculturas de Kaminaljuyu: 
Una Base de Datos Ampliable en Tres Dimensiones (2007)
por Travis Doering y Lori Collins.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/07007es/index.html

Reyes del Cerro Jaguar: Monumentos y Escondites en 
Zapote Bobal (2005)
por James L. Fitzsimmons.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05047es/index.html

Las Estelas del Siglo IX en Machaquila y Ceibal (2002)
por Bryan R. Just.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/01050es/index.html

Un Analisis Comparativo del Arte Verbal Ch'orti' y de las 
Estructuras del Discurso Poetico en la Escritura Jeroglifica Maya (2001)
por Kerry Hull.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/00048es/index.html

Saludos,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html
http://www.famsi.org/spanish/

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From micc2 at cox.net  Thu Aug  2 15:11:38 2007
From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:11:38 -0700
Subject: mihtotia, ihtotia, mecehua...to dance?
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.081138.0700.MICC2@COX.NET>

Piali Compaleh,

I am doing more research on the precolumbian dance traditions of Mexico.

My question is this:

For Nahuatl I have found in Molina:

Bailar o dancar nin, itotia.  ni, maceua
Bailador, netotiani, maceuani
baile o danca, netotiliztli, maceualiztli


In Karttunen:

ihto:tia: to dance; to get someone to dance
I did not find an entry for macehua

Based on Frances' analysis, should  Molina's maceua  (macehua)  be 
derived/related  from/to ma:ce:hualli: subject, commoner, indigenous 
person  or mahce:hualli: merit recompense fortune?

In the book "Victors and Vanquished, edited by Stuart B. Schwartz, a 
section of Francisco Lopez de Gomara's Istoria de la Conquista de Mexico 
says  "...The performed the dance called macehualixtli, which means 
"reward through work" (from macehualli, a farmer)."
(page 160)

I am very much interested in what (if any) were the differences between 
the dances known as netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli, and those called 
maceualiztli.

My theory is that one is a more social and popular type of dance, 
maceualiztli, (which also had its sacred aspects) and the other 
netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli is much more focused on religious state 
sponsored dance rituals for the gods.

Anyone have an idea where I can do further research on this question?

Miyec Tlazcamati!


Mario
www.mexicayotl.org




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From campbel at indiana.edu  Thu Aug  2 18:24:40 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:24:40 -0400
Subject: [Aztlan] mihtotia, ihtotia, mecehua...to dance?
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.142440.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Quiubole Mario,

   Fran has "mahce:hua" (p. 130): to obtain or to deserve what one 
desires; to do penance / conseguir o merecer lo deseado (M), hacer 
penitencia (M)...
And, of course, you have already found "ma:ce:hualli" on her p. 127.  
Once you are armed with the formal contrast, the data from Molina fall 
into two clear groups:  one connected with penance and dancing (they 
have glottal stops), and the other connected with commoners (no glottal 
stops).
   Since determining morphological relationship (i.e., identity) 
depends on two main criteria (form and function, or to put it another 
way, sound and meaning), if we have an inexact representation for the 
*sound*, we are at the mercy of our sense of meaning relationships.  
That's a shaky rail to walk on because sounds (really, phonemes) are 
really either/or; semantics is fuzzy and the relationships can be 
invented, no matter how careful we think we are.
   One of my best friends is fray Alonso, but I'll give an example of 
how he once lead me down a garden path (I *don't* believe that his 
deceit was intentional).  When I was first trying to do a morphological 
analysis of all the words in his 1571 Nahuatl-Spanish dictionary 
(sometimes referred to as "the second half"), on folio 8r I found his 
famous entry "atlacatl. marinero, o mal hombre."  Since I was still 
relatively naive about vowel length and glottal stops in those P.K.* 
days, I assumed that the component morphemes were "atl" (water) and 
tlacatl (man, person).  Of course, I realized that "water-man" and "mal 
hombre" were like a bridge that didn't quite meet in the middle, but, 
in order to make my hypothesis fit, I had to assume something on the 
order of a social agreement among Nahuatl speakers that those guys who 
traveled up and down the canals, stopping at various places and then 
going back to their own families, had a reputation like the traveling 
salesmen of the nineteenth century -- they misbehaved a lot when they 
were away from home.  Now we know better:

   marinero     a:tl-tla:catl   (water-person)
   mal hombre   ah-tla:catl     (not-person [human])

...and the redness in my face has long since faded away.

   Below are the examples of "mahce:hua" that I have found in Molina 
and the Florentine Codex.

Iztayohmeh ihuan abrazos,

Joe

*P.K.  Pre-Karttunen


*mahce:hua ***
  ayehua amo aci tlamacehualiztli.  penitencia no entera. 71m1-17
  cammach mocnopil cammachmomacehual.  de donde ati tanto bien?. 71m2-2
  cotonca intlamacehualiztli =i.  parte dela penitencia. 71m2-6
  cotonqui amo tzonquizqui tlamacehualiztli.  penitencia no entera. 71m1-
    17
  huey tlamacehualiztli.  merecimiento grande. 71m1-15
  icotonca ixeliuhca in tlamacehualiztli.  parte dela penitencia. s. la
    satisfacion, o la contricion  {??printing error: sarisfacion for
    satisfacion}. 71m1-16
  imacehualtini.  merecedor de algo o dichoso. 71m2-7
  macehua =ni.  bailar o dan?ar; baylar o danzar; danzar o bailar. 71m1-
    3
  macehua =ni=onimaceuh.  bailar, o danzar. 71m2-9
  macehua =nic.  conseguir lo desseado; merecer o alcanzar algo. 55m-3
  macehua =nic=onicmaceuh.  conseguir, o merecer lo desseado. 71m2-9
  macehua =nitla.  merecer; robar a saco mano. 71m1-15
  macehua =nitla=onitlamaceuh.  conseguir, o merecer lo desseado o hazer
    penitencia. 71m2-9
  macehua nenenqui =tla.  romero que va en romeria. 55m-17
  macehual =no.  digno ser de algo. 71m1-8
  macehual =no=onomacehualtic.   <lo mesmo es que nolhuil>. 71m2-12
  macehuale.  digna persona; merecedor de mercedes. 55m-6
  macehualiz necuatequiliztli =tla.  baptismo de penitencia. 71m2-21
  macehualiz tlalhuiliztli =tla.  persuasion o mandato assi. 71m2-21
  macehualiznahuatia =nitla.  mandar hazer penitencia. 71m1-14
  macehualiznahuatia =nitla=onitlamacehualiznahuati.  mandar hazer
    penitencia, o persuadir a hazer obras meritorias. 71m2-21
  macehualiznahuatilli =tla.  mandato tal. 71m2-21
  macehualizpa =tla.  cuaresma. 55m-4
  macehualizpan =tla.  cuaresma; tiempo de penitencia o de merecer. s.
    la quaresma; o quatro temporas &c. 71m1-6
  macehualiztenahuatilli =tla.  mando o mandato de penitencia
    {??printing error: dc for de}. 71m1-14
  macehualiztica =tla.  dichosamente; con penitencia; omereciendo. 55m-
    6
  macehualiztilmatli =tla.  saco o sicilio, o otros vestidos para hazer
    penitencia. 71m2-21
  macehualiztlalhuia =nitetla.  mandar hazer penitencia. 71m1-14
  macehualiztlalhuia =nitetla=onitetlamacehualiztlalhui.  exhortar o
    mandar hazer penitencia. 71m2-21
  macehualiztlalhuiliztli =tla.  mando o mandato de penitencia
    {??printing error: dc for de}. 71m1-14
  macehualiztli.  baile o dan?a; bayle o danza; danza o baile; s;
    areyto. 71m1-3
  macehualiztli =huei tla.  merecimiento grande. 55m-13
  macehualiztli =tla.  merecimiento; penitencia; o merecimiento; o el
    acto de dar sacomano; robo de saco mano; robo de sacomano; saco#mano
    para robar; sacomano para robar; ympetracion. 71m1-15
  macehualoyan.  corro donde baylan; corro donde bailan. 55m-4
  macehualoyan =tla [scribal error: ??estadal is not in m1, estadalla is
    the word referred to: 71m1].  carrera de cauallo. 71m1-4
  macehualoyan =tla.  estadalla carrera o lugar donde corren los hombres
    o cauallos; estadalla; carrera o lugar; donde corren hombres o
    cauallos. 55m-9
  macehualoyan =tlatla.  estadalla carrera o lugar donde corren los
    hombres o cauallos. 55m-9
  macehualpoloa =ninotla.  desmerecer. 71m1-7
  macehualpoloa =ninotla=oninotlamacehualpolo.  desmerecer. 71m2-21
  macehualpololiztli =netla.  desmerecimiento assi. 71m1-7
  macehualti =no.   <lo mesmo es que nolhuil>; alcanzar lo desseado;
    alcan?ar lo desseado; dichoso ser o bienaueturado; dichoso ser y
    bienauenturado; digno ser de algo; merecer; ympetrar alcan?ar;
    ympetrar; alcan?ar. 71m2-12
  macehualti =no=onomacehualtic.  ser dichoso, o alcanzar lo que dessea.
    71m2-9
  macehualtia =nitetla.  dar penitencia. 71m1-6
  macehualtia =nitetla=onitetlamacehualti.  dar a merecer, o dar
    penitencia a otro. 71m2-9
  macehualtic =ono.  dichoso yo, o bienauenturado yo. 71m2-13
  macehualtiliztli.  merecimiento; merecimiento o dicha. 55m-13
  macehualtilo =ni=onimacehualtiloc.  soy hecho digno o merecedor de
    algo. s. sin mi merecimiento. 71m2-9
  macehualtini =i.  merecedor. 55m-13
  macehuanenenqui =tla.  romero que va en romeria. 71m1-19
  macehuani [scribal error: ??printing error: maceuaui for maceuani:
    71m1].  bailador. 71m1-3
  macehuani.  baylador; baylador o danzador; danzante o danzador;
    danzante. 55m-1
  macehuani =tla.  dichoso; ermitano; ermita?o; penitente; o el que haze
    algunos exercicios para merecer; hermita?o o beata &c. 71m1-8
  macehuia =ninotla.  merecer. 71m1-15
  macehuia =ninotla=oninotlamacehui.  merecer o alcanzar lo desseado.
    71m2-9
  macehuia =nitetla=onitetlamacehui.  hazer penitencia, o merecer para
    otro. 71m2-21
  macehuia in tetlazotlaliztli =nicno.  ganar amor de otro. 55m-10
  macehuilia =nitetla=onitetlamacehuili.  satisfazer o hazer penitencia
    por otro. 71m2-21
  macehuilia =tetla.  el que haze penitencia por otro. 71m2-18
  maceuh =oqui [scribal error: ??bad split??: 55m].  dotado de gracia.
    55m-6
  maceuh in cualli yectli =oqui.  dotado de gracia. 71m1-9
  maceuhca nemitiliztli =tla.  romeria o vida de penitencia y
    merecimiento. 71m2-21
  maceuhcanenemiliztli =tla.  romeria desta manera. 55m-17
  maceuhqui.  baylador; baylador o danzador; danzante o danzador;
    danzante. 55m-1
  maceuhqui =tla.   <lo mesmo es que tlamacehuani>; ermitano; ermita?o;
    penitente. 71m2-21
  maceuhtli.  ympetrado. 55m-11
  maceuhtli =tla.  conseguida cosa; conseguida cosa assi; despojos; o
    cosa merecida. 55m-3
  nomacehualti =atle.  desdicha acaecer. 55m-5
  tlamacehualoyan =tla [scribal error: ??estadal is not in m1, estadalla
    is the word referred to: 71m1].  carrera de cauallo. 71m1-4
  tlamacehualoyan =tla.  estadalla, carrera o lugar, donde corren
    hombres o cauallos; la carrera; o lugar donde corren hombres; o
    cauallos. 71m1-11
  tlamacehualtia =nic=onitlamacehualti.  dar aflicion al cuerpo, o
    hazerle hazer algunas cosas de abstinencia y penitencia. 71m2-21
  tlapallotitiaque in intlamacehualiz =qui [scribal error: ??printing
    error: mistaken period after quitlilanitiaque; f17r2 has the whole
    entry intact: 71m1].  dexaron exemplo de virtud y penitencia, s, los
    sanctos. 71m1-8
  tlazotlalizmacehua =nite.  merecer el amor de otro. 55m-13
  tlazotlalizmacehua =nite=onitetlazotlalizmaceuh.  alcanzar o merecer
    el amor de otro. 71m2-20
  tlilanitiaque quitlapallotitiaque inin tlamacehualiz =qui.  auer
    dexado exemplo de hazer penitencia los san#ctos passados. 71m1-3
  xeliuhca in tlamacehualiztli =i.  parte dela penitencia. 71m2-8
  cemmaceuh , qui-.  . b.6 f.3
  cenmacehualtia , qui-.  . b.6 f.6
  cenmaceuh , tech-.  ; it favored us. b.6 f.16
  cenmahceuh , tech-.  . b.6 f.1
  etzalmacehua.  they dance the etzalli dance. b.2 f.4
  etzalmacehualiztli.  etzalli dance. b.2 f.4
  etzalmacehualoya.  the dance of maize and beans was danced; there was
    begging of maize and beans. b.2 f.11
  etzalmaceuhque.  . b.7 f.2
  huellamacehua.  . b.4 f.1
  huellamacehua , mo-.  he does his penances well. b.4 f.7
  huellamacehua , tla-.  he performs his penance well. b.4 f.4
  huellamacehua.  he does penance diligently; he performs his penance
    well. b.4 f.6
  huellamacehuaz.  ; he will become very deserving. b.4 f.10
  imahcehualtiz.  . b.4 f.6
  macehhuia , quitla-.  he does a penance for him. b.1 f.1
  macehua.  . b.8 f.3
  macehua , ontla-.  he does penance; she does penances; they perform
    penances. b.4 f.3
  macehua , qui-.  he merits it, he deserves it; she merits it; she
    deserves it; they gain it as a reward. b.6 f.6
  macehua , tic-.  you deserve it, you merit it. b.6 f.9
  macehua , tla-.  ; he does penance; he gains merit; he performs
    penance; he performs a penance; she does penance; they do penance;
    they do penances; they perform penance. b.3 f.4
  macehua , xitla-.  perform penances. b.5 f.1
  macehua.  he dances. b.10 f.2
  macehual , ano-.  it is not my merit. b.6 f.7
  macehual , i-.  his desert; his merit; his lot; his reward. b.4 f.6
  macehual , in-.  ; their merit; their desert. b.4 f.10
  macehual , mo-.  your desert; your merit. b.5 f.1
  macehual , no-.  my desert; my merit. b.1 f.5
  macehual , oi-.  his merit. b.6 f.19
  macehual , te-.  one's reward. b.5 f.2
  macehual , ti-.  you are the desert, you are the merit. b.6 f.15
  macehual , tito-.  you are our merit. b.6 f.14
  macehual , to-.  our desert; our merit. b.1 f.5
  macehual yez , mo-.  it will be your merit. b.9 f.3
  macehuale.  ; one who has merit; a deserving person. b.4 f.6
  macehualeque.  those who have merit. b.6 f.4
  macehualiz , i-.  his dance. b.4 f.3
  macehualiz , intla-.  their penance; their penitence. b.3 f.1
  macehualizcali , tla-.  house of penance. b.3 f.3
  macehualiztica , itla-.  by his penance, by means of his penance. b.4
    f.5
  macehualiztica , tla-.  by doing penance. b.6 f.9
  macehualiztica.  with penance, by means of penance. b.4 f.5
  macehualiztlalhuiloya , te-.  a dance was arranged. b.4 f.3
  macehualiztli , tla-.  penance; dance; performance of penance. b.3
    f.1
  macehualiztli.  dance. b.8 f.3
  macehuallatquitl.  properties which are used in the dance. b.8 f.3
  macehualli.  desert, merit. b.6 f.5
  macehualo , tla-.  people do penance; people perform penance. b.2 f.3
  macehualo.  it is received as merit; it is merited; there is dancing;
    there is a procession. b.6 f.4
  macehualoc.  it was merited. b.12 f.5
  macehualoya , tla-.  there was performing of penance. b.2 f.12
  macehualoyan , tla-.  place of penitence. b.6 f.16
  macehualti , amo-.  . b.10 f.12
  macehualti , i-.  . b.4 f.9
  macehualti , no-.  I deserve, I merit. b.6 f.4
  macehualti , oqui-.  . b.5 f.1
  macehualti , ti-.  ; we merit; we achieve our merit; you gain merit.
    b.6 f.5
  macehualtia , mitz-.  . b.6 f.5
  macehualtia , motla-.  . b.3 f.4
  macehualtia , qui-.  ; he gives it to him as his merit. b.5 f.1
  macehualtia , quite-.  ; he gives it to people as merit. b.6 f.7
  macehualtia , quitla-.  . b.6 f.10
  macehualtia , tetla-.  . b.6 f.7
  macehualtiaya , quite-.  he gave it to people as their merit, as their
    lot; it awarded it to someone. b.1 f.2
  macehualtic , omo-.  . b.6 f.14
  macehualtic , on-.  . b.8 f.5
  macehualtic , oti-.  you gained your merit. b.6 f.9
  macehualtic , oto-.  . b.6 f.16
  macehualtilia , amechmo-.  he [H.] makes it your [pl.] birthright.
    b.10 f.12
  macehualtiliztli , tetla-.  imposed penance. b.3 f.4
  macehualtiz , amo-.  . b.6 f.7
  macehualtiz , i-.  . b.4 f.10
  macehualtiz , qui-.  it will award him. b.5 f.1
  macehualtiz , tito-.  we will deserve, we will merit. b.6 f.15
  macehualtiz , to-.  ; it will be our reward; we shall merit it; we
    will merit; we shall merit; we shall deserve. b.6 f.5
  macehualtiz.  he will merit. b.11 f.3
  macehualtiznequi , to-.  we want to merit; we want to deserve. b.6
    f.12
  macehuani , tla-.  one who performs penances; one who does penance.
    b.4 f.1
  macehuato , ontla-.  they went to do penance. b.5 f.1
  macehuato , ooanqui-.  you [pl.] went to merit it. b.9 f.1
  macehuato , titla-.  . b.6 f.17
  macehuaya.  . b.9 f.7
  macehuaya , i-.  his dance. b.8 f.2
  macehuaya , intla-.  at the time of their penance. b.2 f.11
  macehuaya , ontla-.  they did penance. b.2 f.11
  macehuaya , qui-.  he merited it; they deserved it. b.4 f.3
  macehuaya , tla-.  he performed penances; he did penances; he
    performed penance; she performed penances; she did penance; they
    performed penance; they performed penances; they did penance. b.1
    f.4
  macehuaya.  they danced; they performed penances. b.8 f.2
  macehuayan , itla-.  his place of doing penance. b.2 f.11
  macehuaz , qui-.  ; he will merit it. b.6 f.1
  macehuaz , ti-.  . b.6 f.10
  macehuaz , titla-.  you will do penance. b.1 f.1
  macehuaz , tla-.  he will perform penance; he will dance. b.2 f.14
  macehuaz.  he will dance. b.8 f.2
  macehui , oquimo-.  he merited it. b.2 f.1
  macehui , oticmo-.  you [H.] merited it; you merited it. b.5 f.1
  macehui , quimo-.  (may) he deserve it, he merit it. b.6 f.2
  macehuia , quimo-.  ; he merits it; she merits it. b.6 f.7
  macehuiac , quimo-.  she merited it. b.4 f.3
  macehuiaya , motla-.  they gained his favor. b.12 f.4
  macehuiaya , quimo-.  he merited it; they merited it; . b.4 f.1
  macehuili , oticmo-.  you rewarded him. b.6 f.1
  macehuitihui , quin-.  . b.7 f.2
  macehuitzinoa , amechmo-.  he [H.] gives you [pl.] merit. b.6 f.16
  macehuiz , conmo-.  he will gain it as his merit. b.6 f.2
  macehuizque , ticto-.  we shall merit it. b.6 f.16
  maceuh , mo-.  it was merited. b.12 f.5
  maceuh , nic-.  I merited it. b.2 f.14
  maceuh , on-.  he danced. b.1 f.2
  maceuh , ontla-.  he performed penance. b.8 f.4
  maceuh , otic-.  you merited it. b.1 f.5
  maceuh , otla-.  he did penance. b.1 f.1
  maceuh , otontla-.  you did penance. b.6 f.14
  maceuh , qui-.  he deserved it. b.11 f.6
  maceuh , tla-.  . b.7 f.1
  maceuh , tontla-.  you did penance. b.6 f.14
  maceuhcahuan , itla-.  its devout ones. b.8 f.5
  maceuhque , otic-.  we merited it. b.9 f.1
  maceuhque , otla-.  they performed penances. b.7 f.1
  maceuhque , tla-.  ; devout people; people who do penance; penitents;
    they performed penance; they deserved. b.2 f.14
  maceuhqui , tla-.  offering priest; penitent. b.2 f.11
  maceuhqui.  dancer. b.6 f.10
  maceuhtinenca , ontla-.  they had gone along performing penances. b.7
    f.1
  maceuhtiya , hualla-.  they go performing penances. b.9 f.3
  maceuhtoz , titla-.  you will be doing penance. b.6 f.14
  mahcehua , qui-.  he achieves it; he gains it as his desert. b.8 f.5
  mahcehua , tla-.  they perform penance. b.4 f.7
  mahcehual , i-.  her desert, her merit; his birthright; his desert;
    his lot; his merit; his reward. b.4 f.3
  mahcehual , in-.  their merit. b.4 f.4
  mahcehual , mo-.  ; your desert; your merit; your reward. b.6 f.6
  mahcehual , te-.  someone's reward. b.4 f.4
  mahcehual , to-.  our reward. b.4 f.7
  mahcehualcuicanime.  singer-dancers. b.8 f.3
  mahcehuale.  ; one who deserves; one who has merit; person of merit.
    b.4 f.1
  mahcehualiztli.  act of dancing; dancing. b.4 f.3
  mahcehuallatqui , i-.  his dancing array. b.4 f.3
  mahcehuallatquitl.  dance gear; property which used in dance. b.9 f.7
  mahcehualle.  one who has merit. b.6 f.1
  mahcehualli.  ; desert; merit; gift; recompense. b.4 f.7
  mahcehualmacaya , quitla-.  . b.8 f.5
  mahcehualo.  ; there is dancing. b.4 f.3
  mahcehualtic , oto-.  . b.5 f.1
  mahcehualtitiuh , i-.  . b.4 f.4
  mahcehualtiz , i-.  it will be his reward. b.4 f.9
  mahcehualtiz , mitz-.  he will give it to you as your merit. b.4 f.7
  mahcehuaya , qui-.  ; they merited it. b.4 f.10
  mahcehuaz.  he will dance. b.8 f.3
  mahcehui , oquimo-.  . b.4 f.7
  mahcehuiaya , quimo-.  . b.4 f.1
  mahceuh , ontla-.  he merited. b.8 f.5
  mahceuh , otla-.  he performed the penances. b.4 f.6
  mamacehua , toco[n]-.  you deserve it. b.6 f.10
  mamacehua.  they dance repeatedly. b.2 f.4
  mamacehuaya.  they danced repeatedly. b.2 f.4
  mamahcehua.  he dances continuously. b.10 f.2
  tlalmacehuaco.  . b.8 f.1
  tlalmacehualoco.  there is granting of land. b.10 f.12
  tlalmacehuaquihui.  they come to subjugate the land. b.8 f.1
  tlalmaceuhque.  . b.10 f.11
  tlamacehualiztica , in-.  by their penance. b.4 f.8
  tlamacehuayan , in-.  their place of doing penance. b.5 f.1


> For Nahuatl I have found in Molina:
>
> Bailar o dancar nin, itotia.  ni, maceua
> Bailador, netotiani, maceuani
> baile o danca, netotiliztli, maceualiztli
>
>
> In Karttunen:
>
> ihto:tia: to dance; to get someone to dance
> I did not find an entry for macehua
>
> Based on Frances' analysis, should  Molina's maceua  (macehua)  be
> derived/related  from/to ma:ce:hualli: subject, commoner, indigenous
> person  or mahce:hualli: merit recompense fortune?
>
> In the book "Victors and Vanquished, edited by Stuart B. Schwartz, a
> section of Francisco Lopez de Gomara's Istoria de la Conquista de
> Mexico says  "...The performed the dance called macehualixtli, which
> means "reward through work" (from macehualli, a farmer)."
> (page 160)
>
> I am very much interested in what (if any) were the differences
> between the dances known as netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli, and those
> called maceualiztli.
>
> My theory is that one is a more social and popular type of dance,
> maceualiztli, (which also had its sacred aspects) and the other
> netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli is much more focused on religious state
> sponsored dance rituals for the gods.
>
> Anyone have an idea where I can do further research on this question?
>
> Miyec Tlazcamati!
>
>
> Mario
> www.mexicayotl.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>




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From campbel at indiana.edu  Thu Aug  2 18:33:25 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:33:25 -0400
Subject: [Aztlan] mihtotia, ihtotia, mecehua...to dance?
In-Reply-To: <46B1F42A.7070301@cox.net>
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.143325.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Mariohtzin,

   Oniquilcauh...

For the sake of contrast, here are the examples of ihto:tia: :

Joe

*ihto:tia: ***
  cihuanetotiliztli.  danza assi; danza de mugeres. 55m-4
  itotia =cihua mo.  danzar las mugeres. 55m-4
  itotia =nin.  bailar o dan?ar; baylar o danzar; danzar o bailar. 71m1-
    3
  itotia =nin=oninitoti.  bailar, o danzar. 71m2-8
  itotia =nite.  hazer baylar a otro. 71m1-12
  itotia =nite=oniteitoti.  hazer bailar a otro. 71m2-8
  itotiani =mo.  bailador; baylador; danzante o danzador; danzante. 71m1-
    3
  itotiani =te.  hazedor tal. 71m1-12
  itotiliznemachtiloyan =ne.  escuela de danzar. 71m1-11
  itotiliztli =ne.  baile o dan?a; baile; o danza; bayle o danza; danza
    o baile; s; areyto. 71m1-3
  itotiloyan =ne.  corro donde baylan; corro donde bailan; corro; o
    lugar donde bailan. 55m-4
  itotiqui =mo.  danzante o danzador; danzante. 55m-4
  itotiqui =te.  hazedor tal. 71m1-12
  macpalitoti =te.  encantador assi; encantador desta manera; ladron que
    hurta y roba con encantamiento o embaimiento. 55m-7
  macpalitotia =nite.  encantar para hurtar. 55m-7
  macpalitotia =nite=onitemacpalitoti.  encantar a otro para le robar la
    hazienda. 71m2-9
  macpalitotiani =te.  ladron que hurta y roba con encantamiento o
    embaimiento. 71m2-16
  macpalitotiliztli =te.  encantamiento tal; latrocinio o robo desta
    manera. 55m-7
  macpalitotilli =tla.  encantado. 55m-7
  macpalitotilli =tla [scribal error: ??printing error: tlamacpalitotili
    for tlamacpalitotilli; 1555 has tlamacpalitotilli: 71m1].
    encantado. 71m1-9
  netotilizmachtiloyan =ne.  escuela de dan?ar; escuela donde ense?an a
    danzar. 55m-8
  quechitotia =nino.  collear. 55m-3
  quechitotia =nino=oninoquechitot [scribal error: ??printing error in
    preterit: oninoquechitot for oninoquechitoti: 71m2].  collear, o
    menear la cabeza de aca para alla. 71m2-15
  tlamacpalitotilli.  encantado y adormecido, para ser robado delos
    encantadores. 71m2-21
  cihuaitotia , mo-.  they dance in the fashion of women. b.2 f.3
  ihtotia , m[o]-.  he dances; they dance. b.2 f.3
  ihtotiaya , m[o]-.  they danced. b.2 f.2
  ihtotihtinemi , m[o]-.  they go dancing. b.9 f.5
  [i]htotiloya , ne-.  there was dancing. b.2 f.2
  ihtotinemi , m[o]-.  they go dancing. b.4 f.8
  ihtotiticac , m[o]-.  he stands dancing. b.2 f.1
  ihtotitinemizque , m[o]-.  they will go about dancing. b.9 f.4
  ihtotiz , m[o]-.  he will dance. b.9 f.7
  ihtotiz , onm[o]-.  he will dance. b.4 f.3
  ihtotizque , m[o]-.  they will dance. b.9 f.3
  iihtotitinemi , m[o]-.  they go about dancing. b.9 f.4
  itoti , omm[o]-.  . b.1 f.2
  itoti , om[o]-.  he danced. b.1 f.2
  itotia , hualm[o]-.  they dance. b.9 f.1
  itotia , m[o]-.  he dances; she dances; they dance. b.1 f.2
  itotia , qu-.  he dances it, he juggles it; she twirls it; they make
    her dance; they make him dance. b.8 f.2
  itotia , quimon-.  they dandle them. b.2 f.8
  itotia , te-.  he has people dance; he makes people dance; he makes
    one dance. b.4 f.4
  [i]totia , tla-.  he arranges a dance. b.1 f.2
  itotia , xom[o]-.  dance. b.8 f.1
  itotiani , m[o]-.  dancer. b.4 f.3
  itotiaya , hualm[o]-.  he came forth to dance; they danced. b.2 f.5
  itotiaya , m[o]-.  he danced; she danced; they danced. b.1 f.2
  itotiaya , qu-.  he made it dance; he made him dance. b.3 f.2
  itotiaya , quim-.  they had them dance, they made them dance. b.2
    f.13
  itotiayan , ine-.  his dancing place. b.6 f.19
  itotihui , m[o]-.  they go dancing. b.2 f.1
  itotilique , oquimon-.  they dandled them. b.2 f.8
  [i]totiliz , ine-.  his dance. b.9 f.4
  [i]totiliztli , ne-.  dance, dancing. b.2 f.2
  [i]totilo , ne-.  there is dancing, people dance. b.2 f.2
  [i]totiloc , onne-.  there was dancing, people danced. b.2 f.12
  [i]totiloni , ne-.  dance gear. b.9 f.7
  [i]totiloya , ne-.  there was dancing, people danced. b.1 f.5
  [i]totiloyan , ne-.  place for dancing. b.2 f.12
  [i]totiloz , ne-.  there will be dancing; people are to dance. b.4
    f.12
  itotique , omm[o]-.  they danced. b.2 f.10
  itotitihui , m[o]-.  they go dancing. b.2 f.5
  itotitihui , qu-.  they go dancing. b.2 f.3
  itotitihuitz , m[o]-.  he comes dancing. b.3 f.2
  itotitihuitze , m[o]-.  they come dancing. b.2 f.1
  itotitimani , qu-.  they are dancing. b.2 f.3
  itotitinemi , m[o]-.  he goes dancing; they go dancing; they continue
    dancing. b.2 f.7
  itotitiuh , hualm[o]-.  he goes dancing. b.2 f.2
  itotitiuh , m[o]-.  he goes dancing; they go dancing. b.1 f.2
  itotiz , qu-.  he will dance it; he will have him dance. b.1 f.2
  itotiz , te-.  he will have someone dance; he will dance with people.
    b.4 f.9
  [i]totiz , titla-.  you will dance. b.1 f.1
  [i]totiz , tla-.  he will dance with people. b.1 f.2
  itotizque , m[o]-.  they will dance. b.8 f.3
  itotizque , onm[o]-.  they will dance. b.4 f.11
  ittotiaya , m[o]-.  they danced. b.2 f.11
  ittotiliztli , te-.  act of dancing with someone. b.4 f.11
  macpalitoti.  one who dances with a dead woman's forearm. b.10 f.2
  macpalitotia , te-.  he dances with [a dead woman's] forearm. b.10
    f.2
  macpalitotique , tema-.  . b.4 f.10
  maitotitihui , mo-.  they go dancing with arm movements. b.2 f.6
  malitotia , mo-.  they dance the captives' dance. b.2 f.1
  malitotiaya , mo-.  he danced the captives' dance. b.2 f.1
  malitotitihui , mo-.  they go dancing with the captives. b.2 f.6
  malitotitihuitz , mo-.  . b.3 f.2
  mamacpalitotia , te-.  he dances with an arm (taken from a woman dead
    in first childbed). b.4 f.10
  mamacpalitotique , te-.  . b.6 f.13
  momochiitotia , mo-.  they dance the popcorn dance. b.2 f.3
  tecuitotia , mo-.  they dance the lordly dance. b.2 f.10
  tecuitotiaya , mo-.  he danced a princely dance; they danced the
    lordly dance. b.1 f.2
  tecuitotilo , ne-.  there is lordly dancing. b.2 f.10
  temacpalitoti.  one who dances with a dead woman's forearm. b.10 f.2
  temamacpalitotique.  ; they danced with a forearm (of a dead woman).
    b.4 f.10
  teoittotiloya.  there was godly dancing. b.2 f.11
  tlaquitotiani , mo-.  one who urges dancers on. b.4 f.3
  tzontecomaitotia , mo-.  they dance with severed heads. b.2 f.1





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From susana at losrancheros.org  Thu Aug  2 18:54:28 2007
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:54:28 +0200
Subject: mihtotia, ihtotia, mecehua...to dance?
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.205428.0200.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Mario,
Hace tiempo d? unos seminarios sobre las danzas prehispanicas de Mexico,
incluyendo la Netoteliztli. Te adjunto un archivo en Word con el texto de
esta parte de mi conferencia.
La informacion la saque del libro "Historia General del Arte Mexicano",
Danzas y Bailes Populares, tomo I, de Electra L. Momprad? y Tonatiuh
Guti?rrez - Editorial Hermes, 1981.

Espero que te sirva.

Susana Moraleda


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "micc2" <micc2 at cox.net>
To: <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>; <Aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: [Nahuat-l] mihtotia, ihtotia, mecehua...to dance?


> Piali Compaleh,
>
> I am doing more research on the precolumbian dance traditions of Mexico.
>
> My question is this:
>
> For Nahuatl I have found in Molina:
>
> Bailar o dancar nin, itotia.  ni, maceua
> Bailador, netotiani, maceuani
> baile o danca, netotiliztli, maceualiztli
>
>
> In Karttunen:
>
> ihto:tia: to dance; to get someone to dance
> I did not find an entry for macehua
>
> Based on Frances' analysis, should  Molina's maceua  (macehua)  be
> derived/related  from/to ma:ce:hualli: subject, commoner, indigenous
> person  or mahce:hualli: merit recompense fortune?
>
> In the book "Victors and Vanquished, edited by Stuart B. Schwartz, a
> section of Francisco Lopez de Gomara's Istoria de la Conquista de Mexico
> says  "...The performed the dance called macehualixtli, which means
> "reward through work" (from macehualli, a farmer)."
> (page 160)
>
> I am very much interested in what (if any) were the differences between
> the dances known as netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli, and those called
> maceualiztli.
>
> My theory is that one is a more social and popular type of dance,
> maceualiztli, (which also had its sacred aspects) and the other
> netotiliztli/mihtotiliztli is much more focused on religious state
> sponsored dance rituals for the gods.
>
> Anyone have an idea where I can do further research on this question?
>
> Miyec Tlazcamati!
>
>
> Mario
> www.mexicayotl.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
> __________ NOD32 2433 (20070802) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Fri Aug  3 04:37:06 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 21:37:06 -0700
Subject: Flores y Nombres
In-Reply-To: <46B1D04C.1080909@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.AUG.2007.213706.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

On Aug 2, 2007, at 5:38 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/nahuat-l.html
> Alla se puede hacer click en "Search the archives"
> Se encuentra 12 ocasiones cuando esta palabra ocurrio en la lista.
Eh, bien... una cosa aprendida.
>
> Significa cuitlahuac "lugar de excremento"
Compost Heap???
>
> El excremento era una cosa con gran valor para los Nahua.  Era el  
> abono necesario para la productividad tremenda de los chinampas.   
> Tenia relaciones linguisticas con el oro y la plata (coztic  
> teocuitlatl e iztac teocuitlatl)
?Hah!  Entonces, "Cuitlahuac era "Rico MacPato?"  perdon el humor  
algo negro ? infantil.  Pero si quisiera dar sentido al significado  
de la palabra, y el nombre, seria, "Hombre de la Tierra Bondadosa" o,  
tal vez "Hombre de lo fertil."  ultimamente necesito escribirlo en  
ingles para el libro que estoy haciendo en cuadro sin?ptico  
ahorita... Rich man, Man of fertility, RichlandMan...

Gracias por la ayuda.  Esto me es mucho mas claro que lo que he  
hallado hasta hoy.
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From macuil2 at msn.com  Sat Aug  4 01:09:31 2007
From: macuil2 at msn.com (Raul macuil martinez)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 03:09:31 +0200
Subject: Conferencia Los Codices Techialoyan en Hidalgo
Message-ID: <SAT.4.AUG.2007.030931.0200.MACUIL2@MSN.COM>

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From macuil2 at msn.com  Fri Aug  3 19:32:56 2007
From: macuil2 at msn.com (Raul macuil martinez)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:32:56 +0200
Subject: Confencia: Los codices Techialoyan de Hidalgo
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20051213155619.04222e20@schwallr.email.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.AUG.2007.213256.0200.MACUIL2@MSN.COM>

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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Sun Aug  5 07:38:49 2007
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 08:38:49 +0100
Subject: Flores y Nombres
In-Reply-To: <46B1D04C.1080909@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.AUG.2007.083849.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

--- "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu> wrote:

> Significa cuitlahuac "lugar de excremento"
 
> El excremento era una cosa con gran valor para los Nahua.  Era el
> abono 
> necesario para la productividad tremenda de los chinampas.  Tenia 
> relaciones linguisticas con el oro y la plata (coztic teocuitlatl e 
> iztac teocuitlatl)

But Nahuatl "cuitlatl" can alao mean "tail" (and that is likely its
original meaning: excrement attracts euphemisms and and slang names in
many languages.

Citlalyani.

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Aug  8 12:17:03 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 08:17:03 -0400
Subject: Ahuitzotl's tomb
Message-ID: <WED.8.AUG.2007.081703.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

I don't know if everyone has seen this article on the discovery of what 
they believe to be Ahuitzotl's tomb:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_aztec_tomb;_ylt=AkY5v2CpFsLTphlrIBJ1Zjys0NUE

-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Aug  8 12:58:01 2007
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 08:58:01 -0400
Subject: Ahuitzotl's tomb
In-Reply-To: <46B9B43F.9000400@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.AUG.2007.085801.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>:

>
> I don't know if everyone has seen this article on the discovery of
> what they believe to be Ahuitzotl's tomb:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_aztec_tomb;_ylt=AkY5v2CpFsLTphlrIBJ1Zjys0NUE

Quemetzin, Palitzin.

I was particularly enchanted by the "ah-WEE-zoh-tuhl" and 
"tlahl-tay-KOO-tlee" pronunciation guides. :-)


Michael



>
> --
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Wed Aug  8 13:22:23 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 06:22:23 -0700
Subject: Ahuitzotl's tomb
In-Reply-To: <46B9B43F.9000400@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.AUG.2007.062223.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Oh, yeah!  I'm just dissappointed since it is unlikely codices  
survive in those conditions.  But it is very exciting.  Is anybody on  
the dig maintaining a blog?  I'd like to be a fly on the wall there.


On Aug 8, 2007, at 5:17 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:

>
> I don't know if everyone has seen this article on the discovery of  
> what they believe to be Ahuitzotl's tomb:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/ 
> mexico_aztec_tomb;_ylt=AkY5v2CpFsLTphlrIBJ1Zjys0NUE
>
> -- 
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com  Wed Aug  8 16:23:40 2007
From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 17:23:40 +0100
Subject: Ahuitzotl's tomb
In-Reply-To: <46B9B43F.9000400@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.AUG.2007.172340.0100.IAN.MURSELL@BTINTERNET.COM>

In case it's of interest, following a fascinating lecture by Dr. Leonardo
L?pez Lujan at the British Museum last month, we have uploaded an
illustrated feature on the new discovery here -

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?&one=azt&two=aaa&id=286&typ=reg

We're currently preparing a similar article on the earlier discovery (in
2005) of the Aztec stone monolith in the shape of a giant barrel cactus
found by Leonardo and colleagues under a manhole cover in front of the
Librer?a Porr?a.

Good wishes,

Ian

Ian Mursell
Director
Mexicolore
28 Warriner Gardens
London SW11 4EB, U.K.
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
www.aztecs.org
Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
info at mexicolore.co.uk

1980-2005: 25 years of bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and
museums throughout England.  Team visits, online teaching resources and
services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and much more - all
from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team' (British Museum
Education Service)



> 
> I don't know if everyone has seen this article on the discovery of what
> they believe to be Ahuitzotl's tomb:
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_aztec_tomb;_ylt=A
> kY5v2CpFsLTphlrIBJ1Zjys0NUE


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From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sat Aug 18 16:53:21 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 09:53:21 -0700
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools i n
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <C2DFAC9C.10986%Ian.Mursell@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.095321.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has discussed
N?huatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's Public Schools.

I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that decree. I
truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to start all
those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes effective.
English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas there were
very few instructors of English and those available did not really speak
English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the number of
people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the new
measure for N?huatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful to dream,
but not just in paper. What do you all think?

Sincerely,

Maria Bolivar



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From idiez at mac.com  Sat Aug 18 16:59:21 2007
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:59:21 -0500
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public scho ols in
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <A919F2B74B2E421EB95F6588E019700C@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.115921.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

Mar?a,
	It's just politics. The decree started on paper and it will end there.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
M?xico
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx
www.macehualli.org
?


On Aug 18, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:

> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has  
> discussed
> N?huatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's Public  
> Schools.
>
> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that  
> decree. I
> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to  
> start all
> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes  
> effective.
> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas  
> there were
> very few instructors of English and those available did not really  
> speak
> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the number of
> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the new
> measure for N?huatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful  
> to dream,
> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Maria Bolivar
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl







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From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sat Aug 18 17:32:15 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:32:15 -0700
Subject: N=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1huatl?= mandatory  in public schools in
 Mexico Cit y
In-Reply-To: <5E77FDBE-A992-4344-852F-9D17AD6A1167@mac.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.103215.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

Well it is wonderful that Marcelo Ebrard thinks about that. But it might just be a way to fill the Zocalo with more people. I would have loved to see other measures coupled with that one. Like a School of N?huatl in the newly created Universidad Aut?noma de la Ciudad de M?xico or the creation of communitary schools to prepare speakers of N?huatl like John does, to participate in courses to form professors. But none of that has been going on. At UNAM N?huatl is not even part of the Facultad de Filosof?a y Letras and our intellectuals would not even dream of relinquishing some of their lines to have N?huatl figure in their curricula.

 

So as wonderful as it is that Marcelo can think beyond his predecessors, I find the measure superficial and ?impossible?.

 

I taught for many years Civismo, a mandatory subject in all schools, public and private? My students went to class with an attitude. The program, imposed by the Secretar?a de Educaci?n P?blica was so boring even Political Scientists, Historians  and/or Social Scientists considered dreadful to teach it. So, I cannot begin to imagine how they will implement a mandatory N?huatl Program. My experience in California is that when ?speaking? Spanish was mandatory for instructors, v?a the BCLAD, corruption erupted everywhere and instructors who did not Speak Spanish where trained to jump in, with only a test as requirement.

 

It will be interested to see how this evolves. We are talking about a school population of 8 million?

 

Maria Bol?var

 

 

  _____  

From: John Sullivan, Ph.D. [mailto:idiez at mac.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:59 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar??

            It's just politics. The decree started on paper and it will end there.

John

 

John Sullivan, Ph.D.

Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua

Universidad Aut?a de Zacatecas

Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?tnol?a de Zacatecas, A.C.

Tacuba 152, int. 47

Centro Hist?o

Zacatecas, Zac. 98000

M?co

Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415

Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416

Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048

Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854

idiez at mac.com

www.idiez.org.mx

www.macehualli.org

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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Sat Aug 18 18:19:56 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:19:56 -0700
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public scho ols in
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <A919F2B74B2E421EB95F6588E019700C@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.111956.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Having grow up in Mexico and been in Mexican public schools, I  
shudder to think about the logistics of the problem.  The teachers  
would be one step ahead of the students all the way.
I was fully spanish/english bilingual and two of my Secundaria  
teachers were ok with letting me read in class and letting them get  
on with trying to pound the language (very inexpertly) into my  
classmates heads... one decided my brother and I had to perform all  
the tasks she gave the class; I still remember the day she said,  
"Mouse; mice, blouse...   "  That one stalemated in La Directora's  
office.  Now think of the difference linguistically between spanish  
and nahuatl as opposed to spanish and english (both indo-european  
based if broadly seperated.).
One thing I think we will see, however is a much larger support from  
the population for learning nahuatl.  English and french and german  
were very resented as signs of Mexico's subordination on the  
international scene and all my classmates gladly forgot every bit  
they learned as fast as possible.  There is hope that this would not  
be the feeling about nahuatl; for the past 20 years "hablar indio"  
has been much less pejorative than it was in my growing up years.


On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:

> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has  
> discussed
> N?huatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's Public  
> Schools.
>
> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that  
> decree. I
> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to  
> start all
> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes  
> effective.
> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas  
> there were
> very few instructors of English and those available did not really  
> speak
> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the number of
> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the new
> measure for N?huatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful  
> to dream,
> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Maria Bolivar
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sat Aug 18 19:03:34 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:03:34 -0700
Subject: N=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1huatl?= mandatory  in public schools in
 Mexico Cit y
In-Reply-To: <48682CF4D6C3470090DCC9AF6486FF38@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.120334.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

I know N?huatl is taught here and there. I am not questioning that. I am amazed at the sudden need arising from a decree that involves several million people. Ebrard has no influence whatsoever over what is taught at UNAM or UAM, but the Universidad Aut?noma del Distrito Federal was sold to people on the pretense it was going to be an innovative project geared towards filling voids elitist education had previously neglected. Yet I don?t see those innovative programs. In Literature they have mimicked, to the extreme, the UNAM curriculum. I see the UACM as yet another employment unit to accommodate the friends of the PRD.

 

As for the interest in N?huatl coming from Anthropologists it has always been the case. ENA has taught languages through satellite programs in Morelos and other places and validated the study of several languages. There is a true revival of those languages today, more than ever. It only makes me sad it was never the interest of my colleagues in Literature or Critical Theory and/or Cultural Studies. 

 

In UNAM Linguistics is not separate from Filosof?a and Letras as it is in the UC system (University of California) Yet in the UC or in UNAM there isn?t a program fully devoted to Mesoamerican Languages. Those professors engaging in research of those languages still do so on their own and with lots of monetary restrictions.

 

I am truly concerned about the reception of N?huatl once it becomes a mandatory subject. Already many in Mexico City were questioning the measure claiming it was more important to learn how to use computers than N?huatl? and as I said before, resistance to English has been the case, even though English has been mandatory since the times of Vasconcelos. People dread the mandatory subjects, that is why I mentioned Civismo. Just imagine how having instructors improvised in the subject will contribute to such a resistance. The problem will deepen when all those students realize the university does not have a structure welcoming N?huatl as a main subject, but rather a secondary one, for which studying is going to be more of a calvary than a smooth project.

 

My final point. To be sincere, any project like this has to follow a realistic time frame. In 2008-2009, that is next year, all of the sudden, all schools will have to include N?huatl. If that is not ?de a plumazo?, what is?

 

Maria Bolivar

 

  _____  

From: Karen Dakin [mailto:dakin at servidor.unam.mx] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:51 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: Karen Dakin
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar?a Bolivar -- 

Just to provide you with more accurate information, since sometimes it is hard to find out what is taught where at the UNAM.  Nahuatl, basically as used in documents,  is taught at the licenciatura level in the FFL, in the History curriculum, but also includes students from other areas, and it is a central part of the graduate programs in Estudios Mesoamericanos (along with Mayan and colonial Zapotec and periodically Tojolabal), Antropolog?a, and also included for those interested in the graduate program in Ling??sitica. A course aimed more at spoken varieties is also given in Antropologicas. There are also students who work on projects involving teaching Nahuatl in the Applied Linguistics program.  

 

Karen Dakin

 

 

 

  _____  

From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Maria Bolivar
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:32 AM
To: 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Well it is wonderful that Marcelo Ebrard thinks about that. But it might just be a way to fill the Zocalo with more people. I would have loved to see other measures coupled with that one. Like a School of N?huatl in the newly created Universidad Aut?noma de la Ciudad de M?xico or the creation of communitary schools to prepare speakers of N?huatl like John does, to participate in courses to form professors. But none of that has been going on. At UNAM N?huatl is not even part of the Facultad de Filosof?a y Letras and our intellectuals would not even dream of relinquishing some of their lines to have N?huatl figure in their curricula.

 

So as wonderful as it is that Marcelo can think beyond his predecessors, I find the measure superficial and ?impossible?.

 

I taught for many years Civismo, a mandatory subject in all schools, public and private? My students went to class with an attitude. The program, imposed by the Secretar?a de Educaci?n P?blica was so boring even Political Scientists, Historians  and/or Social Scientists considered dreadful to teach it. So, I cannot begin to imagine how they will implement a mandatory N?huatl Program. My experience in California is that when ?speaking? Spanish was mandatory for instructors, v?a the BCLAD, corruption erupted everywhere and instructors who did not Speak Spanish where trained to jump in, with only a test as requirement.

 

It will be interested to see how this evolves. We are talking about a school population of 8 million?

 

Maria Bol?var

 

 

  _____  

From: John Sullivan, Ph.D. [mailto:idiez at mac.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:59 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar??

            It's just politics. The decree started on paper and it will end there.

John

 

John Sullivan, Ph.D.

Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua

Universidad Aut?a de Zacatecas

Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?tnol?a de Zacatecas, A.C.

Tacuba 152, int. 47

Centro Hist?o

Zacatecas, Zac. 98000

M?co

Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415

Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416

Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048

Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854

idiez at mac.com

www.idiez.org.mx

www.macehualli.org

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_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sat Aug 18 19:08:26 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:08:26 -0700
Subject: N=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1huatl?= mandatory  in public schools in
 Mexico Cit y
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.120826.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

By the way, the measure is to be implemented in the public schools of basic instruction, las prepas and secundarias. I am not sure they mean elementary schools too. We are talking about millions of students with the need for thousands of teachers. We could start an exercise of counting how many would be ready to start teaching basic N?huatl/N?huatl 101 tomorrow.

 

Literally ?too good to be true!!!!!!!?

 

Maria Bolivar

 

  _____  

From: Maria Bolivar [mailto:mbolivar at san.rr.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 12:04 PM
To: 'Maria Bolivar'; 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: 'nahuatl at lists.famsi.org'
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

I know N?huatl is taught here and there. I am not questioning that. I am amazed at the sudden need arising from a decree that involves several million people. Ebrard has no influence whatsoever over what is taught at UNAM or UAM, but the Universidad Aut?noma del Distrito Federal was sold to people on the pretense it was going to be an innovative project geared towards filling voids elitist education had previously neglected. Yet I don?t see those innovative programs. In Literature they have mimicked, to the extreme, the UNAM curriculum. I see the UACM as yet another employment unit to accommodate the friends of the PRD.

 

As for the interest in N?huatl coming from Anthropologists it has always been the case. ENA has taught languages through satellite programs in Morelos and other places and validated the study of several languages. There is a true revival of those languages today, more than ever. It only makes me sad it was never the interest of my colleagues in Literature or Critical Theory and/or Cultural Studies. 

 

In UNAM Linguistics is not separate from Filosof?a and Letras as it is in the UC system (University of California) Yet in the UC or in UNAM there isn?t a program fully devoted to Mesoamerican Languages. Those professors engaging in research of those languages still do so on their own and with lots of monetary restrictions.

 

I am truly concerned about the reception of N?huatl once it becomes a mandatory subject. Already many in Mexico City were questioning the measure claiming it was more important to learn how to use computers than N?huatl? and as I said before, resistance to English has been the case, even though English has been mandatory since the times of Vasconcelos. People dread the mandatory subjects, that is why I mentioned Civismo. Just imagine how having instructors improvised in the subject will contribute to such a resistance. The problem will deepen when all those students realize the university does not have a structure welcoming N?huatl as a main subject, but rather a secondary one, for which studying is going to be more of a calvary than a smooth project.

 

My final point. To be sincere, any project like this has to follow a realistic time frame. In 2008-2009, that is next year, all of the sudden, all schools will have to include N?huatl. If that is not ?de a plumazo?, what is?

 

Maria Bolivar

 

  _____  

From: Karen Dakin [mailto:dakin at servidor.unam.mx] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:51 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: Karen Dakin
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar?a Bolivar -- 

Just to provide you with more accurate information, since sometimes it is hard to find out what is taught where at the UNAM.  Nahuatl, basically as used in documents,  is taught at the licenciatura level in the FFL, in the History curriculum, but also includes students from other areas, and it is a central part of the graduate programs in Estudios Mesoamericanos (along with Mayan and colonial Zapotec and periodically Tojolabal), Antropolog?a, and also included for those interested in the graduate program in Ling??sitica. A course aimed more at spoken varieties is also given in Antropologicas. There are also students who work on projects involving teaching Nahuatl in the Applied Linguistics program.  

 

Karen Dakin

 

 

 

  _____  

From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Maria Bolivar
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:32 AM
To: 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Well it is wonderful that Marcelo Ebrard thinks about that. But it might just be a way to fill the Zocalo with more people. I would have loved to see other measures coupled with that one. Like a School of N?huatl in the newly created Universidad Aut?noma de la Ciudad de M?xico or the creation of communitary schools to prepare speakers of N?huatl like John does, to participate in courses to form professors. But none of that has been going on. At UNAM N?huatl is not even part of the Facultad de Filosof?a y Letras and our intellectuals would not even dream of relinquishing some of their lines to have N?huatl figure in their curricula.

 

So as wonderful as it is that Marcelo can think beyond his predecessors, I find the measure superficial and ?impossible?.

 

I taught for many years Civismo, a mandatory subject in all schools, public and private? My students went to class with an attitude. The program, imposed by the Secretar?a de Educaci?n P?blica was so boring even Political Scientists, Historians  and/or Social Scientists considered dreadful to teach it. So, I cannot begin to imagine how they will implement a mandatory N?huatl Program. My experience in California is that when ?speaking? Spanish was mandatory for instructors, v?a the BCLAD, corruption erupted everywhere and instructors who did not Speak Spanish where trained to jump in, with only a test as requirement.

 

It will be interested to see how this evolves. We are talking about a school population of 8 million?

 

Maria Bol?var

 

 

  _____  

From: John Sullivan, Ph.D. [mailto:idiez at mac.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:59 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar??

            It's just politics. The decree started on paper and it will end there.

John

 

John Sullivan, Ph.D.

Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua

Universidad Aut?a de Zacatecas

Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?tnol?a de Zacatecas, A.C.

Tacuba 152, int. 47

Centro Hist?o

Zacatecas, Zac. 98000

M?co

Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415

Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416

Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048

Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854

idiez at mac.com

www.idiez.org.mx

www.macehualli.org

-------------- next part --------------
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_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sat Aug 18 19:15:56 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:15:56 -0700
Subject: N=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1huatl?= mandatory  in public schools in
 Mexico Cit y
In-Reply-To: <573BA58401E5465A9F1440E8270E0B0C@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.121556.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

Can I ask? why are all of our messages being posted twice? Is it something we are doing?

I am sorry about my double messages, in any case.

 

Maria

  _____  

From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Maria Bolivar
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 12:08 PM
To: 'Maria Bolivar'; 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

By the way, the measure is to be implemented in the public schools of basic instruction, las prepas and secundarias. I am not sure they mean elementary schools too. We are talking about millions of students with the need for thousands of teachers. We could start an exercise of counting how many would be ready to start teaching basic N?huatl/N?huatl 101 tomorrow.

 

Literally ?too good to be true!!!!!!!?

 

Maria Bolivar

 

  _____  

From: Maria Bolivar [mailto:mbolivar at san.rr.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 12:04 PM
To: 'Maria Bolivar'; 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: 'nahuatl at lists.famsi.org'
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

I know N?huatl is taught here and there. I am not questioning that. I am amazed at the sudden need arising from a decree that involves several million people. Ebrard has no influence whatsoever over what is taught at UNAM or UAM, but the Universidad Aut?noma del Distrito Federal was sold to people on the pretense it was going to be an innovative project geared towards filling voids elitist education had previously neglected. Yet I don?t see those innovative programs. In Literature they have mimicked, to the extreme, the UNAM curriculum. I see the UACM as yet another employment unit to accommodate the friends of the PRD.

 

As for the interest in N?huatl coming from Anthropologists it has always been the case. ENA has taught languages through satellite programs in Morelos and other places and validated the study of several languages. There is a true revival of those languages today, more than ever. It only makes me sad it was never the interest of my colleagues in Literature or Critical Theory and/or Cultural Studies. 

 

In UNAM Linguistics is not separate from Filosof?a and Letras as it is in the UC system (University of California) Yet in the UC or in UNAM there isn?t a program fully devoted to Mesoamerican Languages. Those professors engaging in research of those languages still do so on their own and with lots of monetary restrictions.

 

I am truly concerned about the reception of N?huatl once it becomes a mandatory subject. Already many in Mexico City were questioning the measure claiming it was more important to learn how to use computers than N?huatl? and as I said before, resistance to English has been the case, even though English has been mandatory since the times of Vasconcelos. People dread the mandatory subjects, that is why I mentioned Civismo. Just imagine how having instructors improvised in the subject will contribute to such a resistance. The problem will deepen when all those students realize the university does not have a structure welcoming N?huatl as a main subject, but rather a secondary one, for which studying is going to be more of a calvary than a smooth project.

 

My final point. To be sincere, any project like this has to follow a realistic time frame. In 2008-2009, that is next year, all of the sudden, all schools will have to include N?huatl. If that is not ?de a plumazo?, what is?

 

Maria Bolivar

 

  _____  

From: Karen Dakin [mailto:dakin at servidor.unam.mx] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:51 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: Karen Dakin
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar?a Bolivar -- 

Just to provide you with more accurate information, since sometimes it is hard to find out what is taught where at the UNAM.  Nahuatl, basically as used in documents,  is taught at the licenciatura level in the FFL, in the History curriculum, but also includes students from other areas, and it is a central part of the graduate programs in Estudios Mesoamericanos (along with Mayan and colonial Zapotec and periodically Tojolabal), Antropolog?a, and also included for those interested in the graduate program in Ling??sitica. A course aimed more at spoken varieties is also given in Antropologicas. There are also students who work on projects involving teaching Nahuatl in the Applied Linguistics program.  

 

Karen Dakin

 

 

 

  _____  

From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Maria Bolivar
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:32 AM
To: 'John Sullivan, Ph.D.'
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Well it is wonderful that Marcelo Ebrard thinks about that. But it might just be a way to fill the Zocalo with more people. I would have loved to see other measures coupled with that one. Like a School of N?huatl in the newly created Universidad Aut?noma de la Ciudad de M?xico or the creation of communitary schools to prepare speakers of N?huatl like John does, to participate in courses to form professors. But none of that has been going on. At UNAM N?huatl is not even part of the Facultad de Filosof?a y Letras and our intellectuals would not even dream of relinquishing some of their lines to have N?huatl figure in their curricula.

 

So as wonderful as it is that Marcelo can think beyond his predecessors, I find the measure superficial and ?impossible?.

 

I taught for many years Civismo, a mandatory subject in all schools, public and private? My students went to class with an attitude. The program, imposed by the Secretar?a de Educaci?n P?blica was so boring even Political Scientists, Historians  and/or Social Scientists considered dreadful to teach it. So, I cannot begin to imagine how they will implement a mandatory N?huatl Program. My experience in California is that when ?speaking? Spanish was mandatory for instructors, v?a the BCLAD, corruption erupted everywhere and instructors who did not Speak Spanish where trained to jump in, with only a test as requirement.

 

It will be interested to see how this evolves. We are talking about a school population of 8 million?

 

Maria Bol?var

 

 

  _____  

From: John Sullivan, Ph.D. [mailto:idiez at mac.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:59 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

 

Mar??

            It's just politics. The decree started on paper and it will end there.

John

 

John Sullivan, Ph.D.

Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua

Universidad Aut?a de Zacatecas

Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?tnol?a de Zacatecas, A.C.

Tacuba 152, int. 47

Centro Hist?o

Zacatecas, Zac. 98000

M?co

Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415

Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416

Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048

Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854

idiez at mac.com

www.idiez.org.mx

www.macehualli.org

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From villas at anawak.com  Sat Aug 18 22:25:10 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 18:25:10 -0400
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public scho ols in
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <C27B7B61-6E71-4567-9DD0-FF9273F51B74@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.182510.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

It was about time to make Nawatl a mandatory subject, I have always  
thought it a disservice for Mexican schools not teach Nawatl, but   
French or English instead, both odious langauges to the Mexican  
Indigenous people.

Totenyo, Totau'ka Mexika

Marcos Villase?or (Altepeteku'tli)


On Aug 18, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Kier Salmon wrote:

> Having grow up in Mexico and been in Mexican public schools, I  
> shudder to think about the logistics of the problem.  The teachers  
> would be one step ahead of the students all the way.
> I was fully spanish/english bilingual and two of my Secundaria  
> teachers were ok with letting me read in class and letting them get  
> on with trying to pound the language (very inexpertly) into my  
> classmates heads... one decided my brother and I had to perform all  
> the tasks she gave the class; I still remember the day she said,  
> "Mouse; mice, blouse...   "  That one stalemated in La Directora's  
> office.  Now think of the difference linguistically between spanish  
> and nahuatl as opposed to spanish and english (both indo-european  
> based if broadly seperated.).
> One thing I think we will see, however is a much larger support  
> from the population for learning nahuatl.  English and french and  
> german were very resented as signs of Mexico's subordination on the  
> international scene and all my classmates gladly forgot every bit  
> they learned as fast as possible.  There is hope that this would  
> not be the feeling about nahuatl; for the past 20 years "hablar  
> indio" has been much less pejorative than it was in my growing up  
> years.
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:
>
>> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has  
>> discussed
>> N?huatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's  
>> Public Schools.
>>
>> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that  
>> decree. I
>> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to  
>> start all
>> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes  
>> effective.
>> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas  
>> there were
>> very few instructors of English and those available did not really  
>> speak
>> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the  
>> number of
>> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the  
>> new
>> measure for N?huatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful  
>> to dream,
>> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Maria Bolivar
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sun Aug 19 00:49:38 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:49:38 -0700
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools i n
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <3F8F1F08-D081-48D2-9D8C-32B467BA770E@anawak.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.174938.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

And it will continue to be a disservice. What I am lamenting is not that
they included Nahuatl in the mandatory curriculum, rather that they did it
as they did, by decree and suddenly or as a spur of the moment thing. 

Languages like N?huatl, Huichol, Yaqui, Maya deserve some serious attention
and the implementation of long term measures so more people can access them
and teach it. I frankly do not thing there are many programs in Mexico
training teachers of any of the native American languages.

As for English and French, I wish you did not considered them odious -as per
by decree also-, but useful. We should learn from the fact English has been
a mandatory language and very few people speak it fluently or care to learn
it. I would follow the French or German education model in that area. French
kids do learn German, English and Spanish. They spend time in the country to
perfect it. They choose it because those are the languages of their
neighbors. You may learn French and English, fluently, in Private Mexican
Schools but not in Public Schools. My son had a teacher in Zacatecas Public
School who asked him not to answer and who got mad at my son when he
attempted to explain to him he was misusing a word in English. As for
French... only those who can afford the Alianza Francesa can learn French.
There is rarely a school that hires a French Instructor over, precisely,
subjects like Computaci?n and Physics. Languages, Art and Music are as
important in teaching critical thinking, systems understanding and
abstraction, but are not considered along those lines "important". 

As for Civismo. I loved Civismo myself. I had a great teacher and the books
the government publishes are also great. I have them still, though all the
times I have moved. Civismo was, precisely, the subject that allowed me to
survive for years. But I do not think the majority of students loved it. 

One more note on books in the various languages published by INEA. I have
the ones from Chiapas and Nayarit, they are beautiful. But for some stupid
reason they make a very limited edition of each of those so they are stingy
when people who are not speakers of those languages request them. I asked
the Mexican Consulate to donate books in those languages to a Cultural
Center in an area of San Diego where people want to raise awareness of
Native American Languages and they said it was a no, since those books were
primarily distributed in the states where those languages are still spoken.
Strictly speaking they are right... but think again. I have Mayan speaking
neighbors in Mira Mesa, San Diego and there are many Mixteco and Pur?pecha
workers whose children might not learn those languages in the US.

Anyway... this new decree mandated N?huatl starting the school year
2008-2009. We will see how many speakers of N?huatl come forth to fill those
positions opening, and what the measure entails in terms of practical
application. Considering the numbers involved, each hablante de N?huatl
should work in several schools, various shifts and make a lot of money...
Unless, as they do for English, the SEDF hires friends who "say" they speak
N?huatl, instead.

Saludos

Mar?a Bol?var

-----Original Message-----
From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
[mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Marcos Villase?or
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 3:25 PM
To: Kier Salmon
Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

It was about time to make Nawatl a mandatory subject, I have always  
thought it a disservice for Mexican schools not teach Nawatl, but   
French or English instead, both odious langauges to the Mexican  
Indigenous people.

Totenyo, Totau'ka Mexika

Marcos Villase?or (Altepeteku'tli)


On Aug 18, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Kier Salmon wrote:

> Having grow up in Mexico and been in Mexican public schools, I  
> shudder to think about the logistics of the problem.  The teachers  
> would be one step ahead of the students all the way.
> I was fully spanish/english bilingual and two of my Secundaria  
> teachers were ok with letting me read in class and letting them get  
> on with trying to pound the language (very inexpertly) into my  
> classmates heads... one decided my brother and I had to perform all  
> the tasks she gave the class; I still remember the day she said,  
> "Mouse; mice, blouse...   "  That one stalemated in La Directora's  
> office.  Now think of the difference linguistically between spanish  
> and nahuatl as opposed to spanish and english (both indo-european  
> based if broadly seperated.).
> One thing I think we will see, however is a much larger support  
> from the population for learning nahuatl.  English and french and  
> german were very resented as signs of Mexico's subordination on the  
> international scene and all my classmates gladly forgot every bit  
> they learned as fast as possible.  There is hope that this would  
> not be the feeling about nahuatl; for the past 20 years "hablar  
> indio" has been much less pejorative than it was in my growing up  
> years.
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:
>
>> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has  
>> discussed
>> N?huatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's  
>> Public Schools.
>>
>> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that  
>> decree. I
>> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to  
>> start all
>> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes  
>> effective.
>> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas  
>> there were
>> very few instructors of English and those available did not really  
>> speak
>> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the  
>> number of
>> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the  
>> new
>> measure for N?huatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful  
>> to dream,
>> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Maria Bolivar
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From chelodona at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 19 01:08:24 2007
From: chelodona at hotmail.com (chelo dona)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:08:24 -0300
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public  schools in
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <1E9849F5980C4E91B08FCFDB8983A976@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.AUG.2007.220824.0300.CHELODONA@HOTMAIL.COM>

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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sun Aug 19 15:37:09 2007
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:37:09 -0500
Subject: La ense�anza de las lenguas ind�ge nas en M�xico
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.103709.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Apreciados listeros:
 
Les ofrezco algunos documentos sobre las pol?ticas ling??sticas en M?xico,
con el prop?sito de enriquecer la discusi?n sobre la ense?anza del n?huatl
en M?xico.
 
En 2003 fue publicada la Ley General de Derechos Ling??sticos de los Pueblos
Ind?genas.
http://www.inali.gob.mx/pdf/ley-GDLPI.pdf
 
Como parte de esta ley se cre? el Instituto Nacional de Lenguas Ind?genas
(INALI), el cual ya se encuentra consolidado y est? trabajando intensamente.
http://www.inali.gob.mx/index.html
 
La Secretar?a de Educaci?n P?blica tiene muchos a?os de experiencia en el
?mbito de las lenguas ind?genas. Durante las ?ltimas dos d?cadas su pol?tica
ha cambiado y hay algunos logros.
http://www.sep.gob.mx/wb2/sep1/sep1_Direccion_General_de_Educacion_Indigena
 
Para un breve boceto del impacto de las pol?ticas ling??sticas al idioma
otom?, a lo largo de medio milenio, apunto un v?nculo a una ponencia que
present? hace una d?cada.
http://www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright/oto_edu.htm
 
Para algunos conceptos generales acerca de los derechos ling??sticos
universales, es ?til la Declaraci?n Universal de Derechos Ling??sticos,
presentada por un grupo amplio de organizaciones no gubernamentales en
Barcelona en 1996:
http://www.linguistic-declaration.org/index-gb.htm
 
Saludos,
 
David Wright
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From villas at anawak.com  Sun Aug 19 18:43:24 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:43:24 -0400
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public scho ols in
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <1E9849F5980C4E91B08FCFDB8983A976@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.144324.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

Everything in Mexico gets done (not) by decree. The imperial Wey  
Tlatoani system translated to the French ideal of humans devoid of  
history and separated from nature.  But at least it is a forward  
movement, we will see how serious they (Panistas) are about this in a  
couple of years. Recall that under Mr. Zorro, his Secretario de (Des)  
Educaci?n P?blica, decided that the pre-invasion history should not  
be included in the text books. I have no faith in the PAN leadership,  
as they are the same as the PRI and the PRD (Perdere), a bunch of  
thiefs who parrot their religious and moral beliefs, while pocketing  
millions of dollars at an incredible social cost.


We will see if Mr. Calderon is really about recognizing our  
indigenous roots and promoting their revival. But to judge by all the  
"privileged class" representatives I know in Mexico, they will  
continue the ethnocide that started 500 years ago, in the name of a  
christian civilizational project until all Mexicans have been de- 
indianized.


Totenyo Totau'ka Mexika

el otro Marcos





On Aug 18, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Maria Bolivar wrote:

> And it will continue to be a disservice. What I am lamenting is not  
> that
> they included Nahuatl in the mandatory curriculum, rather that they  
> did it
> as they did, by decree and suddenly or as a spur of the moment thing.
>
> Languages like N?huatl, Huichol, Yaqui, Maya deserve some serious  
> attention
> and the implementation of long term measures so more people can  
> access them
> and teach it. I frankly do not thing there are many programs in Mexico
> training teachers of any of the native American languages.
>
> As for English and French, I wish you did not considered them  
> odious -as per
> by decree also-, but useful. We should learn from the fact English  
> has been
> a mandatory language and very few people speak it fluently or care  
> to learn
> it. I would follow the French or German education model in that  
> area. French
> kids do learn German, English and Spanish. They spend time in the  
> country to
> perfect it. They choose it because those are the languages of their
> neighbors. You may learn French and English, fluently, in Private  
> Mexican
> Schools but not in Public Schools. My son had a teacher in  
> Zacatecas Public
> School who asked him not to answer and who got mad at my son when he
> attempted to explain to him he was misusing a word in English. As for
> French... only those who can afford the Alianza Francesa can learn  
> French.
> There is rarely a school that hires a French Instructor over,  
> precisely,
> subjects like Computaci?n and Physics. Languages, Art and Music are as
> important in teaching critical thinking, systems understanding and
> abstraction, but are not considered along those lines "important".
>
> As for Civismo. I loved Civismo myself. I had a great teacher and  
> the books
> the government publishes are also great. I have them still, though  
> all the
> times I have moved. Civismo was, precisely, the subject that  
> allowed me to
> survive for years. But I do not think the majority of students  
> loved it.
>
> One more note on books in the various languages published by INEA.  
> I have
> the ones from Chiapas and Nayarit, they are beautiful. But for some  
> stupid
> reason they make a very limited edition of each of those so they  
> are stingy
> when people who are not speakers of those languages request them. I  
> asked
> the Mexican Consulate to donate books in those languages to a Cultural
> Center in an area of San Diego where people want to raise awareness of
> Native American Languages and they said it was a no, since those  
> books were
> primarily distributed in the states where those languages are still  
> spoken.
> Strictly speaking they are right... but think again. I have Mayan  
> speaking
> neighbors in Mira Mesa, San Diego and there are many Mixteco and  
> Pur?pecha
> workers whose children might not learn those languages in the US.
>
> Anyway... this new decree mandated N?huatl starting the school year
> 2008-2009. We will see how many speakers of N?huatl come forth to  
> fill those
> positions opening, and what the measure entails in terms of practical
> application. Considering the numbers involved, each hablante de  
> N?huatl
> should work in several schools, various shifts and make a lot of  
> money...
> Unless, as they do for English, the SEDF hires friends who "say"  
> they speak
> N?huatl, instead.
>
> Saludos
>
> Mar?a Bol?var
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
> [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Marcos  
> Villase?or
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 3:25 PM
> To: Kier Salmon
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in  
> Mexico City
>
> It was about time to make Nawatl a mandatory subject, I have always
> thought it a disservice for Mexican schools not teach Nawatl, but
> French or English instead, both odious langauges to the Mexican
> Indigenous people.
>
> Totenyo, Totau'ka Mexika
>
> Marcos Villase?or (Altepeteku'tli)
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Kier Salmon wrote:
>
>> Having grow up in Mexico and been in Mexican public schools, I
>> shudder to think about the logistics of the problem.  The teachers
>> would be one step ahead of the students all the way.
>> I was fully spanish/english bilingual and two of my Secundaria
>> teachers were ok with letting me read in class and letting them get
>> on with trying to pound the language (very inexpertly) into my
>> classmates heads... one decided my brother and I had to perform all
>> the tasks she gave the class; I still remember the day she said,
>> "Mouse; mice, blouse...   "  That one stalemated in La Directora's
>> office.  Now think of the difference linguistically between spanish
>> and nahuatl as opposed to spanish and english (both indo-european
>> based if broadly seperated.).
>> One thing I think we will see, however is a much larger support
>> from the population for learning nahuatl.  English and french and
>> german were very resented as signs of Mexico's subordination on the
>> international scene and all my classmates gladly forgot every bit
>> they learned as fast as possible.  There is hope that this would
>> not be the feeling about nahuatl; for the past 20 years "hablar
>> indio" has been much less pejorative than it was in my growing up
>> years.
>>
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:
>>
>>> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has
>>> discussed
>>> N?huatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's
>>> Public Schools.
>>>
>>> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that
>>> decree. I
>>> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to
>>> start all
>>> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes
>>> effective.
>>> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas
>>> there were
>>> very few instructors of English and those available did not really
>>> speak
>>> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the
>>> number of
>>> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the
>>> new
>>> measure for N?huatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful
>>> to dream,
>>> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Maria Bolivar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sun Aug 19 19:59:52 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:59:52 -0700
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools i n
 Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <841D6C31-2E62-4C05-82D8-6BABF1C251D3@anawak.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.125952.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

Marcos, I agree the Pan stinks. I have no hopes for anything they either do
or not do. It is the left I criticize for disappointing those they claim to
represent. 

As for the decree on N?huatl, it is the work of Marcelo Ebrard, the governor
of Mexico City (PRD). It is interesting how the school system works in
Mexico. It used to be a Federal System, until it was decreed that each state
should manage its own resources. And it happened with the DF being the last
to be due for decentralization. That was one of the main quarrels between
Lopez and Fox (Zorro). Because of the numbers, DF Government would absorb
suddenly a big, big problem, coupled with a big, big subsidy, Fox attempted
to curtail. El subsidio educativo para el DF ascend?a a 18 000 millones de
pesos en el a?o de la descentralizaci?n. 


Maria Bolivar


-----Original Message-----
From: Marcos Villase?or [mailto:villas at anawak.com] 
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 11:43 AM
To: Maria Bolivar
Cc: 'Kier Salmon'; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in Mexico City

Everything in Mexico gets done (not) by decree. The imperial Wey  
Tlatoani system translated to the French ideal of humans devoid of  
history and separated from nature.  But at least it is a forward  
movement, we will see how serious they (Panistas) are about this in a  
couple of years. Recall that under Mr. Zorro, his Secretario de (Des)  
Educaci?n P?blica, decided that the pre-invasion history should not  
be included in the text books. I have no faith in the PAN leadership,  
as they are the same as the PRI and the PRD (Perdere), a bunch of  
thiefs who parrot their religious and moral beliefs, while pocketing  
millions of dollars at an incredible social cost.


We will see if Mr. Calderon is really about recognizing our  
indigenous roots and promoting their revival. But to judge by all the  
"privileged class" representatives I know in Mexico, they will  
continue the ethnocide that started 500 years ago, in the name of a  
christian civilizational project until all Mexicans have been de- 
indianized.


Totenyo Totau'ka Mexika

el otro Marcos





On Aug 18, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Maria Bolivar wrote:

> And it will continue to be a disservice. What I am lamenting is not  
> that
> they included Nahuatl in the mandatory curriculum, rather that they  
> did it
> as they did, by decree and suddenly or as a spur of the moment thing.
>
> Languages like N?huatl, Huichol, Yaqui, Maya deserve some serious  
> attention
> and the implementation of long term measures so more people can  
> access them
> and teach it. I frankly do not thing there are many programs in Mexico
> training teachers of any of the native American languages.
>
> As for English and French, I wish you did not considered them  
> odious -as per
> by decree also-, but useful. We should learn from the fact English  
> has been
> a mandatory language and very few people speak it fluently or care  
> to learn
> it. I would follow the French or German education model in that  
> area. French
> kids do learn German, English and Spanish. They spend time in the  
> country to
> perfect it. They choose it because those are the languages of their
> neighbors. You may learn French and English, fluently, in Private  
> Mexican
> Schools but not in Public Schools. My son had a teacher in  
> Zacatecas Public
> School who asked him not to answer and who got mad at my son when he
> attempted to explain to him he was misusing a word in English. As for
> French... only those who can afford the Alianza Francesa can learn  
> French.
> There is rarely a school that hires a French Instructor over,  
> precisely,
> subjects like Computaci?n and Physics. Languages, Art and Music are as
> important in teaching critical thinking, systems understanding and
> abstraction, but are not considered along those lines "important".
>
> As for Civismo. I loved Civismo myself. I had a great teacher and  
> the books
> the government publishes are also great. I have them still, though  
> all the
> times I have moved. Civismo was, precisely, the subject that  
> allowed me to
> survive for years. But I do not think the majority of students  
> loved it.
>
> One more note on books in the various languages published by INEA.  
> I have
> the ones from Chiapas and Nayarit, they are beautiful. But for some  
> stupid
> reason they make a very limited edition of each of those so they  
> are stingy
> when people who are not speakers of those languages request them. I  
> asked
> the Mexican Consulate to donate books in those languages to a Cultural
> Center in an area of San Diego where people want to raise awareness of
> Native American Languages and they said it was a no, since those  
> books were
> primarily distributed in the states where those languages are still  
> spoken.
> Strictly speaking they are right... but think again. I have Mayan  
> speaking
> neighbors in Mira Mesa, San Diego and there are many Mixteco and  
> Pur?pecha
> workers whose children might not learn those languages in the US.
>
> Anyway... this new decree mandated N?huatl starting the school year
> 2008-2009. We will see how many speakers of N?huatl come forth to  
> fill those
> positions opening, and what the measure entails in terms of practical
> application. Considering the numbers involved, each hablante de  
> N?huatl
> should work in several schools, various shifts and make a lot of  
> money...
> Unless, as they do for English, the SEDF hires friends who "say"  
> they speak
> N?huatl, instead.
>
> Saludos
>
> Mar?a Bol?var
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
> [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Marcos  
> Villase?or
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 3:25 PM
> To: Kier Salmon
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] N?huatl mandatory in public schools in  
> Mexico City
>
> It was about time to make Nawatl a mandatory subject, I have always
> thought it a disservice for Mexican schools not teach Nawatl, but
> French or English instead, both odious langauges to the Mexican
> Indigenous people.
>
> Totenyo, Totau'ka Mexika
>
> Marcos Villase?or (Altepeteku'tli)
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Kier Salmon wrote:
>
>> Having grow up in Mexico and been in Mexican public schools, I
>> shudder to think about the logistics of the problem.  The teachers
>> would be one step ahead of the students all the way.
>> I was fully spanish/english bilingual and two of my Secundaria
>> teachers were ok with letting me read in class and letting them get
>> on with trying to pound the language (very inexpertly) into my
>> classmates heads... one decided my brother and I had to perform all
>> the tasks she gave the class; I still remember the day she said,
>> "Mouse; mice, blouse...   "  That one stalemated in La Directora's
>> office.  Now think of the difference linguistically between spanish
>> and nahuatl as opposed to spanish and english (both indo-european
>> based if broadly seperated.).
>> One thing I think we will see, however is a much larger support
>> from the population for learning nahuatl.  English and french and
>> german were very resented as signs of Mexico's subordination on the
>> international scene and all my classmates gladly forgot every bit
>> they learned as fast as possible.  There is hope that this would
>> not be the feeling about nahuatl; for the past 20 years "hablar
>> indio" has been much less pejorative than it was in my growing up
>> years.
>>
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Maria Bolivar wrote:
>>
>>> I am sorry I have been so busy I did not check if the list has
>>> discussed
>>> N?huatl becoming a mandatory subject in all of Mexico City's
>>> Public Schools.
>>>
>>> I am interested to know how is it they plan to implement that
>>> decree. I
>>> truly was not aware of us having so many instructors all ready to
>>> start all
>>> those classes for the cycle 2008-2009 when the decree becomes
>>> effective.
>>> English is a mandatory subject already. I remember in Zacatecas
>>> there were
>>> very few instructors of English and those available did not really
>>> speak
>>> English. I know in Mexico City English is mandatory, but the
>>> number of
>>> people fluent in English does not surface as it should. I hope the
>>> new
>>> measure for N?huatl does not run the same course. It is wonderful
>>> to dream,
>>> but not just in paper. What do you all think?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Maria Bolivar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>



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From mbolivar at san.rr.com  Sun Aug 19 20:23:08 2007
From: mbolivar at san.rr.com (Maria Bolivar)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:23:08 -0700
Subject: La
 ense=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1anza_de_las_lenguas_ind=EDgen_as_en_M=E9xico?=
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAFSuI922EoRPiKSCadztChvCgAAAEAAAAOXbrCm7CX1JpVuPJWEDCp4BAAAAAA==@prodigy.net.mx>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.132308.0700.MBOLIVAR@SAN.RR.COM>

I thought this to be of interest:

 

Languages are vehicles of value systems and of cultural expressions and they
constitute a determining factor in the identity of groups and individuals.  

*	Over 50% of the world's 6000 languages are endangered. 
*	96% of the world's 6000 languages are spoken by 4% of the world's
population. 
*	90% of the world's languages are not represented on the Internet. 
*	One language disappears on average every two weeks. 
*	80% of the African languages have no orthography.

The UNESCO Endangered Languages Program has as its mission to promote and
safeguard endangered languages and linguistic diversity as an essential part
of the living heritage of humanity.

Maria

 

  _____  

From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
[mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of David Wright
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 8:37 AM
To: Nahuat-l (messages)
Subject: [Nahuat-l] La ense?anza de las lenguas ind?genas en M?xico

 

Apreciados listeros:

 

Les ofrezco algunos documentos sobre las pol?ticas ling??sticas en M?xico,
con el prop?sito de enriquecer la discusi?n sobre la ense?anza del n?huatl
en M?xico.

 

En 2003 fue publicada la Ley General de Derechos Ling??sticos de los Pueblos
Ind?genas.

http://www.inali.gob.mx/pdf/ley-GDLPI.pdf

 

Como parte de esta ley se cre? el Instituto Nacional de Lenguas Ind?genas
(INALI), el cual ya se encuentra consolidado y est? trabajando intensamente.

http://www.inali.gob.mx/index.html

 

La Secretar?a de Educaci?n P?blica tiene muchos a?os de experiencia en el
?mbito de las lenguas ind?genas. Durante las ?ltimas dos d?cadas su pol?tica
ha cambiado y hay algunos logros.

http://www.sep.gob.mx/wb2/sep1/sep1_Direccion_General_de_Educacion_Indigena

 

Para un breve boceto del impacto de las pol?ticas ling??sticas al idioma
otom?, a lo largo de medio milenio, apunto un v?nculo a una ponencia que
present? hace una d?cada.

http://www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright/oto_edu.htm

 

Para algunos conceptos generales acerca de los derechos ling??sticos
universales, es ?til la Declaraci?n Universal de Derechos Ling??sticos,
presentada por un grupo amplio de organizaciones no gubernamentales en
Barcelona en 1996:

http://www.linguistic-declaration.org/index-gb.htm

 

Saludos,

 

David Wright

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From cedecor at gmx.net  Sun Aug 19 14:08:03 2007
From: cedecor at gmx.net (Douglas Hinds)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:08:03 +0200
Subject: N�huatl mandatory in public sc hools in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <1E9849F5980C4E91B08FCFDB8983A976@Laptop>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.160803.0200.CEDECOR@GMX.NET>

Hola Maria, Kier, Marcos, chelo and any others following this
thread.

Maria Bolivar wrote:

> What I am lamenting is not that they included Nahuatl in the
> mandatory curriculum, rather that they did it as they did, by
> decree

Without a legal disposition no funds would be available for
implementing the program. Since (aside from property taxes) only the
federal government can level taxes, the govt. of the D.F. depends on
funding from the federal govt (governed by a different party) in
order to carry this out. No decree, no funding (and they don't get
enough funds to fully implement their programs, as is).

> and suddenly or as a spur of the moment thing.

We don't really know how much analysis and planning supported the
decision to make nahuatl universally and obligatorily taught in
all of Mexico City's public junior high and high schools.

Nor do we know what motived Marcelo to do this, or what practical
benefits (if any) will accrue from the program if and when it's
implemented, or how well it will be implemented. We'll just have to
wait and see.

Personally, I would like to see more support for the sustainable,
equitable and integral development (and compatible with the C169 of
the the UN's ILO) of Mexico's indigenous communities, so they
wouldn't have to migrate to the D.F. and other overpopulated
megacities (including this one).

I tried calling a friend (Nahua Governor for San Luis Potosi,
Hidalgo and part of Veracruz and Tamaulipas) who teaches in the
bilingual teachers college located in Tamazunchale to see what he
knows about this, as well as an ex-head of Sedesol's (Social
Development Sec.) Indigenous Program (now teaching law in the UNAM)
but neither was home at the moment.

In any case, what's to know? It's too soon! We'll just have to wait
and see what happens, won't we?

Lastly, I think it's important to recognize that in order to get to
somewhere that you want to go, you have to begin from wherever you
are, and a step is a step.

Governments are necessary evils and in the best of cases they design
and implement policies that exploit natural and human resources in
socially and ecologically responsible ways (and they could learn a
lot from their indigenous predecessors in that regard).

I wouldn't expect a whole lot from the present federal govt. in that
sense but they have a chance to do some good over the next 5+ years.
(It would be nice if politicians had to take an oath similar to the
one doctors take: Above all, do no harm).

> Languages like N?huatl, Huichol, Yaqui, Maya deserve some serious
> attention and the implementation of long term measures so more
> people can access them and teach it. I frankly do not think there
> are many programs in Mexico training teachers of any of the native
> American languages.

> As for English and French, I wish you did not considered them
> odious -as per by decree also-, but useful. We should learn from
> the fact English has been a mandatory language and very few people
> speak it fluently or care to learn it. I would follow the French
> or German education model in that area. French kids do learn
> German, English and Spanish. They spend time in the country to
> perfect it. They choose it because those are the languages of
> their neighbors. You may learn French and English, fluently, in
> Private Mexican Schools but not in Public Schools. My son had a
> teacher in Zacatecas Public School who asked him not to answer and
> who got mad at my son when he attempted to explain to him he was
> misusing a word in English.

Most of the time what's taught is neither English nor Spanish but
rather, English as conceived by someone unfamiliar with it's sounds
and sentence structure.

Agradeciendo   de   antemano  la  atenci?n  brindada,  aprovecho  la
oportunidad para manifestarles la seguridad de nuestra mayor estima.

Douglas Hinds
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, A.C.
Guadalajara (actualmente)



_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Mon Aug 20 01:03:47 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:03:47 -0700
Subject: La
 ense=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1anza_de_las_lenguas_ind_=EDgenas_en_M=E9xico?=
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAFSuI922EoRPiKSCadztChvCgAAAEAAAAOXbrCm7CX1JpVuPJWEDCp4BAAAAAA==@prodigy.net.mx>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.180347.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Eah, listeros!  Aqui la pregunta, mi pap? quien vive en Cuernavaca y  
su mujer que es una grilla bien activista no han escuchado nada de un  
"decreto presidencial" para la ense?aza del Nahuatl en las escuelas y  
el busco en las maquinas de busqueda sin hallar nada.  ?Alguien tiene  
un entrelazo a ese derecto en particular?  O un articula de las  
noticias que lo discute.  Estos de las politicas son muy  
interessantes y voy a estar leyendo tarde esta noche, pero no son  
especificos a lo del decreto.


On Aug 19, 2007, at 8:37 AM, David Wright wrote:

> Apreciados listeros:
>
> Les ofrezco algunos documentos sobre las pol?ticas ling??sticas en  
> M?xico, con el prop?sito de enriquecer la discusi?n sobre la  
> ense?anza del n?huatl en M?xico.
>
> En 2003 fue publicada la Ley General de Derechos Ling??sticos de  
> los Pueblos Ind?genas.
> http://www.inali.gob.mx/pdf/ley-GDLPI.pdf
>
> Como parte de esta ley se cre? el Instituto Nacional de Lenguas  
> Ind?genas (INALI), el cual ya se encuentra consolidado y est?  
> trabajando intensamente.
> http://www.inali.gob.mx/index.html
>
> La Secretar?a de Educaci?n P?blica tiene muchos a?os de experiencia  
> en el ?mbito de las lenguas ind?genas. Durante las ?ltimas dos  
> d?cadas su pol?tica ha cambiado y hay algunos logros.
> http://www.sep.gob.mx/wb2/sep1/ 
> sep1_Direccion_General_de_Educacion_Indigena
>
> Para un breve boceto del impacto de las pol?ticas ling??sticas al  
> idioma otom?, a lo largo de medio milenio, apunto un v?nculo a una  
> ponencia que present? hace una d?cada.
> http://www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright/oto_edu.htm
>
> Para algunos conceptos generales acerca de los derechos  
> ling??sticos universales, es ?til la Declaraci?n Universal de  
> Derechos Ling??sticos, presentada por un grupo amplio de  
> organizaciones no gubernamentales en Barcelona en 1996:
> http://www.linguistic-declaration.org/index-gb.htm
>
> Saludos,
>
> David Wright
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From villas at anawak.com  Mon Aug 20 02:49:53 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:49:53 -0500
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools in
 Mexico City
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.214953.0500.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says  
about the subject.

Marcos


On Aug 19, 2007, at 10:08 AM, Douglas Hinds wrote:

>
> Hola Maria, Kier, Marcos, chelo and any others following this
> thread.
>
> Maria Bolivar wrote:
>
>> What I am lamenting is not that they included Nahuatl in the
>> mandatory curriculum, rather that they did it as they did, by
>> decree
>
> Without a legal disposition no funds would be available for
> implementing the program. Since (aside from property taxes) only the
> federal government can level taxes, the govt. of the D.F. depends on
> funding from the federal govt (governed by a different party) in
> order to carry this out. No decree, no funding (and they don't get
> enough funds to fully implement their programs, as is).
>
>> and suddenly or as a spur of the moment thing.
>
> We don't really know how much analysis and planning supported the
> decision to make nahuatl universally and obligatorily taught in
> all of Mexico City's public junior high and high schools.
>
> Nor do we know what motived Marcelo to do this, or what practical
> benefits (if any) will accrue from the program if and when it's
> implemented, or how well it will be implemented. We'll just have to
> wait and see.
>
> Personally, I would like to see more support for the sustainable,
> equitable and integral development (and compatible with the C169 of
> the the UN's ILO) of Mexico's indigenous communities, so they
> wouldn't have to migrate to the D.F. and other overpopulated
> megacities (including this one).
>
> I tried calling a friend (Nahua Governor for San Luis Potosi,
> Hidalgo and part of Veracruz and Tamaulipas) who teaches in the
> bilingual teachers college located in Tamazunchale to see what he
> knows about this, as well as an ex-head of Sedesol's (Social
> Development Sec.) Indigenous Program (now teaching law in the UNAM)
> but neither was home at the moment.
>
> In any case, what's to know? It's too soon! We'll just have to wait
> and see what happens, won't we?
>
> Lastly, I think it's important to recognize that in order to get to
> somewhere that you want to go, you have to begin from wherever you
> are, and a step is a step.
>
> Governments are necessary evils and in the best of cases they design
> and implement policies that exploit natural and human resources in
> socially and ecologically responsible ways (and they could learn a
> lot from their indigenous predecessors in that regard).
>
> I wouldn't expect a whole lot from the present federal govt. in that
> sense but they have a chance to do some good over the next 5+ years.
> (It would be nice if politicians had to take an oath similar to the
> one doctors take: Above all, do no harm).
>
>> Languages like N?huatl, Huichol, Yaqui, Maya deserve some serious
>> attention and the implementation of long term measures so more
>> people can access them and teach it. I frankly do not think there
>> are many programs in Mexico training teachers of any of the native
>> American languages.
>
>> As for English and French, I wish you did not considered them
>> odious -as per by decree also-, but useful. We should learn from
>> the fact English has been a mandatory language and very few people
>> speak it fluently or care to learn it. I would follow the French
>> or German education model in that area. French kids do learn
>> German, English and Spanish. They spend time in the country to
>> perfect it. They choose it because those are the languages of
>> their neighbors. You may learn French and English, fluently, in
>> Private Mexican Schools but not in Public Schools. My son had a
>> teacher in Zacatecas Public School who asked him not to answer and
>> who got mad at my son when he attempted to explain to him he was
>> misusing a word in English.
>
> Most of the time what's taught is neither English nor Spanish but
> rather, English as conceived by someone unfamiliar with it's sounds
> and sentence structure.
>
> Agradeciendo   de   antemano  la  atenci?n  brindada,  aprovecho  la
> oportunidad para manifestarles la seguridad de nuestra mayor estima.
>
> Douglas Hinds
> Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, A.C.
> Guadalajara (actualmente)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>

__________ NOD32 2470 (20070819) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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From idiez at mac.com  Mon Aug 20 03:50:08 2007
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:50:08 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Nahuat-l] Re: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in
 public  schools in Mexico City
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.225008.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

> Marcos,
> 	What indigenous leadership are you refering to?
> John
>
> John Sullivan, Ph.D.
> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
> Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
> Tacuba 152, int. 47
> Centro Hist?rico
> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
> M?xico
> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
> Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
> idiez at mac.com
> www.idiez.org.mx
> www.macehualli.org
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>
> On Aug 19, 2007, at 2:51 PM, Marcos Villase?or wrote:
>
>>
>> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
>> about the subject.
>>
>> Marcos
>>
>>
>

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From cedecor at gmx.net  Sun Aug 19 20:55:00 2007
From: cedecor at gmx.net (Douglas Hinds)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:55:00 +0200
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools in
 Mexico Ci ty
In-Reply-To: <73481936-2252-470B-83AE-859A594BA5F5@anawak.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2007.225500.0200.CEDECOR@GMX.NET>

> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
> about the subject.

> Marcos

In response to your request (plus I too am interested) I was able to
discuss this with Jesus, the ex-head of Sedesol's indigenous support
program who is also Secretary General of the Consejo Supremo
Nacional Indigena, an organization originally formed in 1521 (the
first time the various indigenous "ethnias" had banded together) in
order to preserve their culture at the point they realized that the
invading forces could not be stopped (Guns, Germs and Steel?).

During the 90's the CSNI was reestablished as an Asociaci?n Civil
(non profit organization). However, when Amalia Garcia refused Fox's
offer to head the Social Development Secretariat, that position was
claimed by the party Fox used to get into power. (For those unaware,
Mexico's electoral processes are publicly funded -something the USA
sorely needs- and the funds are channelled only through political
parties).

Then, the split between Mexico's National Indigenous Institute (INI)
and the Interamerican Indigenous Institute (III) became even
greater, when Fox changed the name to something totally different,
ignoring the Pazquaro Accords Mexico signed in the 1940's.

Although the last PRI government helped form the CSNI originally,
the group is interested in establishing it's own political presence
in order to achieve the degree of autonomy that the constitution
(and the C169) indicates, particularly in the municipalities (which
include rural areas in Mexico - city governments do not exist as
such, except for the Federal District D.F.) in which they constitute
a majority and yet, often lack even a single councilman (regidor).

Doing this requires resources that should be available this year or
next. (I thought that this might be of interest to some of you,
particularly any in Mexico that might want to collaborate).

Getting back to Marcelo Ebrand's initiative, Jesus wasn't sure
whether the measure is obligatory or not but thought that it was and
in any case, it begins tomorrow (Monday). He too wondered where they
were going to get all the nahuatl instructors this will take.

Unfortunately I still couldn't get through to Santiago in
Tamazunchale but I'll try again at 6 am tomorrow. IAC, Jesus agreed
that Santiago probably teaches *in* Nahuatl but doesn't teach
Nahuatl itself (although I suppose he could).

It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
teach the culture also.

I could also check with another PRD govt. near el D.F. (Edomex) that
might know more about this, since it's a PRD initiative and we have
an established relationship with that particular local govt.

Another thing - I used to teach language and IMO, 3 or 4 classes a
week of 2-3 hours each are needed in order to do much good and if
it's any less than that I doubt that it will take on much
significance, educationally speaking.

Douglas Hinds


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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Mon Aug 20 05:46:37 2007
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:46:37 +0100
Subject: N=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory  in public schools
 in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <299786576.20070819225500@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.064637.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

Which dialect of Nahuatl? Classical Tenochtitlanian Nauhatl, or a
modern dialect (which?)?

--- Douglas Hinds <cedecor at gmx.net> wrote:
> ...
> It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
> teach the culture also.

Which parts of the culture?

Citlalyani.

_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From villas at anawak.com  Mon Aug 20 06:17:52 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:17:52 -0400
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public  schools
 in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <72AE309D-49BD-4917-ABFD-3C28DFF30DBE@mac.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.021752.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

John,

My reference is in relation to Douglas Hinds e-mail.

Marcos

On Aug 19, 2007, at 11:50 PM, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote:

>> Marcos,
>> 	What indigenous leadership are you refering to?
>> John
>>
>> John Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
>> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>> Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
>> Tacuba 152, int. 47
>> Centro Hist?rico
>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
>> M?xico
>> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
>> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
>> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
>> Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
>> idiez at mac.com
>> www.idiez.org.mx
>> www.macehualli.org
>> <John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2007, at 2:51 PM, Marcos Villase?or wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
>>> about the subject.
>>>
>>> Marcos
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From villas at anawak.com  Mon Aug 20 06:20:55 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:20:55 -0400
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in  public schools
 in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <299786576.20070819225500@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.022055.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

Thanks


On Aug 19, 2007, at 4:55 PM, Douglas Hinds wrote:

>
>> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
>> about the subject.
>
>> Marcos
>
> In response to your request (plus I too am interested) I was able to
> discuss this with Jesus, the ex-head of Sedesol's indigenous support
> program who is also Secretary General of the Consejo Supremo
> Nacional Indigena, an organization originally formed in 1521 (the
> first time the various indigenous "ethnias" had banded together) in
> order to preserve their culture at the point they realized that the
> invading forces could not be stopped (Guns, Germs and Steel?).
>
> During the 90's the CSNI was reestablished as an Asociaci?n Civil
> (non profit organization). However, when Amalia Garcia refused Fox's
> offer to head the Social Development Secretariat, that position was
> claimed by the party Fox used to get into power. (For those unaware,
> Mexico's electoral processes are publicly funded -something the USA
> sorely needs- and the funds are channelled only through political
> parties).
>
> Then, the split between Mexico's National Indigenous Institute (INI)
> and the Interamerican Indigenous Institute (III) became even
> greater, when Fox changed the name to something totally different,
> ignoring the Pazquaro Accords Mexico signed in the 1940's.
>
> Although the last PRI government helped form the CSNI originally,
> the group is interested in establishing it's own political presence
> in order to achieve the degree of autonomy that the constitution
> (and the C169) indicates, particularly in the municipalities (which
> include rural areas in Mexico - city governments do not exist as
> such, except for the Federal District D.F.) in which they constitute
> a majority and yet, often lack even a single councilman (regidor).
>
> Doing this requires resources that should be available this year or
> next. (I thought that this might be of interest to some of you,
> particularly any in Mexico that might want to collaborate).
>
> Getting back to Marcelo Ebrand's initiative, Jesus wasn't sure
> whether the measure is obligatory or not but thought that it was and
> in any case, it begins tomorrow (Monday). He too wondered where they
> were going to get all the nahuatl instructors this will take.
>
> Unfortunately I still couldn't get through to Santiago in
> Tamazunchale but I'll try again at 6 am tomorrow. IAC, Jesus agreed
> that Santiago probably teaches *in* Nahuatl but doesn't teach
> Nahuatl itself (although I suppose he could).
>
> It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
> teach the culture also.
>
> I could also check with another PRD govt. near el D.F. (Edomex) that
> might know more about this, since it's a PRD initiative and we have
> an established relationship with that particular local govt.
>
> Another thing - I used to teach language and IMO, 3 or 4 classes a
> week of 2-3 hours each are needed in order to do much good and if
> it's any less than that I doubt that it will take on much
> significance, educationally speaking.
>
> Douglas Hinds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From idiez at mac.com  Mon Aug 20 15:04:51 2007
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:04:51 -0500
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in  public schools
 in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <0740CD4B-CB49-42CB-8A99-2F2C7F7ABE62@anawak.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.100451.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

Douglas and Marcos,
	The general rule, according to my experience, is that the offering  
of government positions is one step in the standard procedure for  
buying out/ silencing leaders of social/political movements in  
Mexico. So, by definition, an indigenous leader would not be able to  
hold a government position, and continue to represent the interests  
of indians.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
M?xico
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx
www.macehualli.org?


On Aug 20, 2007, at 1:20 AM, Marcos Villase?or wrote:

> Thanks
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2007, at 4:55 PM, Douglas Hinds wrote:
>
>>
>>> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
>>> about the subject.
>>
>>> Marcos
>>
>> In response to your request (plus I too am interested) I was able to
>> discuss this with Jesus, the ex-head of Sedesol's indigenous support
>> program who is also Secretary General of the Consejo Supremo
>> Nacional Indigena, an organization originally formed in 1521 (the
>> first time the various indigenous "ethnias" had banded together) in
>> order to preserve their culture at the point they realized that the
>> invading forces could not be stopped (Guns, Germs and Steel?).
>>
>> During the 90's the CSNI was reestablished as an Asociaci?n Civil
>> (non profit organization). However, when Amalia Garcia refused Fox's
>> offer to head the Social Development Secretariat, that position was
>> claimed by the party Fox used to get into power. (For those unaware,
>> Mexico's electoral processes are publicly funded -something the USA
>> sorely needs- and the funds are channelled only through political
>> parties).
>>
>> Then, the split between Mexico's National Indigenous Institute (INI)
>> and the Interamerican Indigenous Institute (III) became even
>> greater, when Fox changed the name to something totally different,
>> ignoring the Pazquaro Accords Mexico signed in the 1940's.
>>
>> Although the last PRI government helped form the CSNI originally,
>> the group is interested in establishing it's own political presence
>> in order to achieve the degree of autonomy that the constitution
>> (and the C169) indicates, particularly in the municipalities (which
>> include rural areas in Mexico - city governments do not exist as
>> such, except for the Federal District D.F.) in which they constitute
>> a majority and yet, often lack even a single councilman (regidor).
>>
>> Doing this requires resources that should be available this year or
>> next. (I thought that this might be of interest to some of you,
>> particularly any in Mexico that might want to collaborate).
>>
>> Getting back to Marcelo Ebrand's initiative, Jesus wasn't sure
>> whether the measure is obligatory or not but thought that it was and
>> in any case, it begins tomorrow (Monday). He too wondered where they
>> were going to get all the nahuatl instructors this will take.
>>
>> Unfortunately I still couldn't get through to Santiago in
>> Tamazunchale but I'll try again at 6 am tomorrow. IAC, Jesus agreed
>> that Santiago probably teaches *in* Nahuatl but doesn't teach
>> Nahuatl itself (although I suppose he could).
>>
>> It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
>> teach the culture also.
>>
>> I could also check with another PRD govt. near el D.F. (Edomex) that
>> might know more about this, since it's a PRD initiative and we have
>> an established relationship with that particular local govt.
>>
>> Another thing - I used to teach language and IMO, 3 or 4 classes a
>> week of 2-3 hours each are needed in order to do much good and if
>> it's any less than that I doubt that it will take on much
>> significance, educationally speaking.
>>
>> Douglas Hinds
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl








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From villas at anawak.com  Mon Aug 20 18:01:56 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:01:56 -0400
Subject: N=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in  public schools
 in Mexico City
In-Reply-To: <4D787C47-96EB-429E-AD4A-668D9D841DE5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.140156.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

That is a debateable point. Mexico has had extraordinary minds who  
had official positions in the Government and yet represented the  
interests of the nation and the Indigenous population, Narciso  
Bassols is a prime example,  Bonfil Batalla another one, he who  
faught for Indianismo (as opposed to Indigenismo) while heading the  
Instituto Nacional Indigenista.

But they are the exceptions that confirm the rule.


Marcos

On Aug 20, 2007, at 11:04 AM, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote:

> Douglas and Marcos,
> 	The general rule, according to my experience, is that the offering  
> of government positions is one step in the standard procedure for  
> buying out/ silencing leaders of social/political movements in  
> Mexico. So, by definition, an indigenous leader would not be able  
> to hold a government position, and continue to represent the  
> interests of indians.
> John
>
> John Sullivan, Ph.D.
> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
> Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
> Tacuba 152, int. 47
> Centro Hist?rico
> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
> M?xico
> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
> Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854
> idiez at mac.com
> www.idiez.org.mx
> www.macehualli.org
> <John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf>
>
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2007, at 1:20 AM, Marcos Villase?or wrote:
>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2007, at 4:55 PM, Douglas Hinds wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> I am looking forward to read what the Indigenous leaderships says
>>>> about the subject.
>>>
>>>> Marcos
>>>
>>> In response to your request (plus I too am interested) I was able to
>>> discuss this with Jesus, the ex-head of Sedesol's indigenous support
>>> program who is also Secretary General of the Consejo Supremo
>>> Nacional Indigena, an organization originally formed in 1521 (the
>>> first time the various indigenous "ethnias" had banded together) in
>>> order to preserve their culture at the point they realized that the
>>> invading forces could not be stopped (Guns, Germs and Steel?).
>>>
>>> During the 90's the CSNI was reestablished as an Asociaci?n Civil
>>> (non profit organization). However, when Amalia Garcia refused Fox's
>>> offer to head the Social Development Secretariat, that position was
>>> claimed by the party Fox used to get into power. (For those unaware,
>>> Mexico's electoral processes are publicly funded -something the USA
>>> sorely needs- and the funds are channelled only through political
>>> parties).
>>>
>>> Then, the split between Mexico's National Indigenous Institute (INI)
>>> and the Interamerican Indigenous Institute (III) became even
>>> greater, when Fox changed the name to something totally different,
>>> ignoring the Pazquaro Accords Mexico signed in the 1940's.
>>>
>>> Although the last PRI government helped form the CSNI originally,
>>> the group is interested in establishing it's own political presence
>>> in order to achieve the degree of autonomy that the constitution
>>> (and the C169) indicates, particularly in the municipalities (which
>>> include rural areas in Mexico - city governments do not exist as
>>> such, except for the Federal District D.F.) in which they constitute
>>> a majority and yet, often lack even a single councilman (regidor).
>>>
>>> Doing this requires resources that should be available this year or
>>> next. (I thought that this might be of interest to some of you,
>>> particularly any in Mexico that might want to collaborate).
>>>
>>> Getting back to Marcelo Ebrand's initiative, Jesus wasn't sure
>>> whether the measure is obligatory or not but thought that it was and
>>> in any case, it begins tomorrow (Monday). He too wondered where they
>>> were going to get all the nahuatl instructors this will take.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately I still couldn't get through to Santiago in
>>> Tamazunchale but I'll try again at 6 am tomorrow. IAC, Jesus agreed
>>> that Santiago probably teaches *in* Nahuatl but doesn't teach
>>> Nahuatl itself (although I suppose he could).
>>>
>>> It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
>>> teach the culture also.
>>>
>>> I could also check with another PRD govt. near el D.F. (Edomex) that
>>> might know more about this, since it's a PRD initiative and we have
>>> an established relationship with that particular local govt.
>>>
>>> Another thing - I used to teach language and IMO, 3 or 4 classes a
>>> week of 2-3 hours each are needed in order to do much good and if
>>> it's any less than that I doubt that it will take on much
>>> significance, educationally speaking.
>>>
>>> Douglas Hinds
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From cedecor at gmx.net  Mon Aug 20 21:50:34 2007
From: cedecor at gmx.net (Douglas Hinds)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:50:34 -0500
Subject: N=?windows-1252?Q?=E1huatl?= mandatory in public schools
 in Mexico Ci ty
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2007.165034.0500.CEDECOR@GMX.NET>

This was inadvertently sent to Anthony only this morning (I meant to
send it to the list also). I'm also adding a reply to the more
recent messages from John and Marcos below.

Anthony Appleyard asked two good questions:

> Which dialect of Nahuatl? Classical Tenochtitlanian Nauhatl, or a
> modern dialect (which?)?

I assume you're referring to what will be taught in Mexico City's
junior high and high schools (beginning today), and not what's being
used to teach nahuatl speaking teachers in the teachers college of
Tamazunchale. In either case I'd had to check and others here may
know more about it. I wouldn't sell the program short to begin with
since anything new is likely to require adjustments en route and
hopefully, those administrating the project will be open to your and
others constructive criticisms.

I suggested:

>> It seems to me that if they're going to teach Nahuatl they ought to
>> teach the culture also.

> Which parts of the culture?

IMHO, the socially and ecologically responsible parts. But since John
Sullivan teaches both, he's likely to have more to say on the
subject.

John wrote:

>> Douglas and Marcos,

>> The general rule, according to my experience, is that the
>> offering of government positions is one step in the standard
>> procedure for buying out/ silencing leaders of social/political
>> movements in Mexico. So, by definition, an indigenous leader
>> would not be able to hold a government position, and continue to
>> represent the interests of indians.

It's true that the past regime was corporativa. It remained in power
by controlling the vote of the sectors of it's party. However -
without federal funds, their power dried up and the present regime
relies on marketing and bribing the judiciary to stay in power.
They don't bother to cultivate casiques.

This means it's a whole new ball game and the people I know that are
involved in establishing a new grass roots indigenous movement are
both serious and competent. An political association with a hundred
thousand non-indigenous members has been formed in just a few
central states and they are covering the cost of reactivating the
CSNI. Once that number is doubled the registry for a party dedicated
to indigenous autonomy and development can be obtained. This will
provide the funds needed for further expansion.

That's the idea (it seems viable to me).

Marcos said:

> That is a debateable point. Mexico has had extraordinary minds who
> had official positions in the Government and yet represented the
> interests of the nation and the Indigenous population, Narciso
> Bassols is a prime example, Bonfil Batalla another one, he who
> fought for Indianismo (as opposed to Indigenismo) while heading
> the Instituto Nacional Indigenista.

Well said.

If control can be obtained over local governments in municipalities in
which the indigenous population has a majority, a lot can be done to
help the communities development.

-- 

Douglas Hinds

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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From oenthomas at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 23:34:34 2007
From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:34:34 -0700
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
Message-ID: <FRI.24.AUG.2007.163434.0700.OENTHOMAS@GMAIL.COM>

Listeros,

I have been attempting to learn without a teacher and have accumulated
several books, Andrews Grammar and workbook, Kartunen, Carocci and finally
Thelma Sullivan. I can read Sullivan but find that it does not follow all
Andrews NNC and VNC patterns.

I am learning from Thelma Sullivan and would like some assurance that this
will not set me on a path that leads to future failure by not following
correct grammar.

I would like to have some offers of help via the web; help anyone?

-- 
We are connected

Owen
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Sat Aug 25 17:31:19 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:31:19 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0708241634t5327e660x988de87e27e815c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.133119.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Probably the best way is using Campbell and Karttunen's _Foundation
Course_  When I teach Nahuatl to students, It's what I use.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/schwaljf/Nahuatl/hotlinks.htm




> Listeros,
>
> I have been attempting to learn without a teacher and have accumulated
> several books, Andrews Grammar and workbook, Kartunen, Carocci and finally
> Thelma Sullivan. I can read Sullivan but find that it does not follow all
> Andrews NNC and VNC patterns.
>
> I am learning from Thelma Sullivan and would like some assurance that this
> will not set me on a path that leads to future failure by not following
> correct grammar.
>
> I would like to have some offers of help via the web; help anyone?
>
> --
> We are connected
>
> Owen
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


-- 
John F. Schwaller
President,
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
schwallr at potsdam.edu


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From villas at anawak.com  Sat Aug 25 17:47:24 2007
From: villas at anawak.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcos_Villase=F1or?=)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:47:24 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0708241634t5327e660x988de87e27e815c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.134724.0400.VILLAS@ANAWAK.COM>

To my knowledge there is no correct grammar, or at least grammatical  
convention, as there is no governing body for the language, there are  
aproximately 5 Nawatl conventions, all of them made by people for who  
Nawatl is a second language, and none of them Mexican.

I had to create my own orthographic convention, since classic Nahua  
is a dead language and modern Nawatl has been influenced by  suspect  
interest such as the  CIA's Instituto Linguistico de Verano.

If you wish a copy of my Nawatl Orthographic convention let me know,

Totenyo, Totau'ka, Mexikah

Marcos Villasenor

On Aug 24, 2007, at 7:34 PM, Owen Thomas wrote:

> Listeros,
>
> I have been attempting to learn without a teacher and have  
> accumulated several books, Andrews Grammar and workbook, Kartunen,  
> Carocci and finally Thelma Sullivan. I can read Sullivan but find  
> that it does not follow all Andrews NNC and VNC patterns.
>
> I am learning from Thelma Sullivan and would like some assurance  
> that this will not set me on a path that leads to future failure by  
> not following correct grammar.
>
> I would like to have some offers of help via the web; help anyone?
>
> -- 
> We are connected
>
> Owen
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From b.leeming at rivers.org  Sat Aug 25 18:11:05 2007
From: b.leeming at rivers.org (b.leeming at rivers.org)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:11:05 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.141105.0400.>

Owen,

I began teaching myself to read classical Nahuatl about two years ago using
Lockhart's "Nahuatl As Written".  I also own the Campbell and Karttunen
"Foundation Course" notebooks, and they are excellent, too.  However, one
advantage of Lockhart's book is that he gets you into reading Colonial era
documents from the very start - a plus for those who hope to study the
copious manuscripts that survive from this period.

Another suggestion: find someone near you with whom you can study,
preferably one with some experience with the language.  I was fortunate
enough to get connected with Galen Brokaw and Pablo Garcia, both former
students of Joe Campbell.  For me learning is easier with others, not to
mention more fun.

Here are some web links you might find useful:
http://www.macehualli.org/
http://www2.potsdam.edu/schwaljf/Nahuatl/
http://whp.uoregon.edu/projects.html
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahuatllessons/INL-00.html


On another note: why are you interested in learning Nahuatl?  I'd love to
hear your story.  Good luck!  Once you've been bitten by the bug, there's
no turning back!

Ben Leeming
Framingham, MA

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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Sat Aug 25 18:26:45 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:26:45 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.142645.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Owentzin,

   ...just my 2 cents worth off the top of my head -- in spite of the 
fact that I consult the Andrews Grammar many times every day, I can't 
imagine using it for entry into Nahuatl, particularly without a 
teacher.  Thelma Sullivan's grammar, particularly together with 
Carochi, seems to me to be an easy way to accumulate enough familiarity 
with the language so that one can read Andrews with more profit.
   Andrews' presentation of the language aims at a much deeper 
theoretical view of the language, in a model of grammar that is simply 
*his*.  His presentation is not like the presentation of grammatical 
reasoning among linguists trained in the second half of the last 
century -- namely, pulling the reader along with
*reasons* for believing the forms that he posits as basic and *reasons* 
for believing his lines of derivation.  The reader is expected to 
believe all the details because they are *declared*.  I have found (in 
both the first edition and the revised one) that in cases where I might 
not go along with his explanation on first, second, and third reading, 
I later found support for his point of view in some other part of the 
grammar.  This leads to some increase in faith in places where you are 
not initially convinced by his presentation.
   On the other hand, his "reach" for the depths of the grammar, a 
subtle picture of the soul of the language, sometimes stretches beyond 
what is supported by the observable facts.  This would lead some people 
to think of parts of the description to leave the arena of "science" 
and cross the border into "religion".

   To shorten a story that threatens to become too long, my personal 
leaning would be to start with Sullivan and Carochi.  ...and proceed 
with Andrews later.

I am sure that you will enjoy all of the time you dedicate to Nahuatl.

Joe

Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:

> Listeros,
>
> I have been attempting to learn without a teacher and have accumulated
> several books, Andrews Grammar and workbook, Kartunen, Carocci and finally
> Thelma Sullivan. I can read Sullivan but find that it does not follow all
> Andrews NNC and VNC patterns.
>
> I am learning from Thelma Sullivan and would like some assurance that this
> will not set me on a path that leads to future failure by not following
> correct grammar.
>
> I would like to have some offers of help via the web; help anyone?
>
> --
> We are connected
>
> Owen
>



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From rich_photos at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 25 22:49:59 2007
From: rich_photos at yahoo.com (rick dosan)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:49:59 -0700
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20070825142645.87671d980s4wwggo@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.154959.0700.RICHPHOTOS@YAHOO.COM>

What about starting through Michel Launey's Introducci?n a la lengua y la literatura n?huatl?
  -Richard D

"

       
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. 
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From ECOLING at aol.com  Sat Aug 25 23:25:35 2007
From: ECOLING at aol.com (Lloyd Anderson)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 19:25:35 EDT
Subject: Validity of chronicles?
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.192535.EDT.>

What is the status of scholarship on the validity of the chronicles?
Can some *part* of Nigel Davies's approach be supported which
takes the different year names from different sources (or sometimes
mixed in a single source, Davies thought partly distinguished by
time period) to reflect different calendars, for example Tenochca
vs. Texcocan ?

Has anyone attempted to revisit Edmonson's _Book of the Year_
and reconstruct as much as possible of the material without great
leaps which most of the profession does not go along with?

Have there been other discoveries which help to confirm or
disconfirm claims in native sources, archaeological or in
Nahua manuscripts, for example.

Some of the above published?   Citations?
Scholars most actively working on these topics just now,
or recently?

Thanks for any help,
Lloyd Anderson
Ecological Linguistics
ecoling at aol.com


**************************************
 Get a sneak peek of the 
all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From rcs218 at psu.edu  Sun Aug 26 03:06:26 2007
From: rcs218 at psu.edu (ROBERT SCHWALLER)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:06:26 -0400
Subject: Validity of chronicles?
Message-ID: <SAT.25.AUG.2007.230626.0400.RCS218@PSU.EDU>

Although it has been a while since I looked through it, one of the best
multi-disciplinary approaches to many of these texts, especially the
pictorial sources, is Stories in red and black : pictorial histories of the
Aztecs and Mixtecs 
by Elizabeth Boone, c. 2000. As I recall she does try to reconcile differences
between varies narratives using archaeological as well as historic
sources. It is certainly a good place to start looking for current
research into those questions.



Rob Schwaller


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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sun Aug 26 12:16:44 2007
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 08:16:44 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20070825142645.87671d980s4wwggo@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.AUG.2007.081644.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Owen:

I would say Joe's comments are right on the money as far Andrews goes. 
At the same time, I'd like to add that using his and Frances 
Karttunen's introductory Nahuatl books, and then bolstering them with 
Sullivan's book, would be the best approach I'm aware. I've used Joe's 
and Fran's book in my university classes to great advantage.

I should point out, too, that Sullivan occasionally goes off the track 
in some of her grammatical analyses, which is not that case with Joe's 
and Fran's work. Although theirs was put together rather quickly for a 
summer course at UT-Austin (I think), it is nicely laid out, coherent. 
And you can progress very far with it on your own.

And then, with Sullivan's work at your side, you can see all the great 
examples of grammatical forms that she draws from the classics. Those 
examples are, in my estimation, the cream of her work, pedagogically 
speaking, as they give you grammar *in real native speaker contexts*.

Michael



Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> Owentzin,
>
>   ...just my 2 cents worth off the top of my head -- in spite of the
> fact that I consult the Andrews Grammar many times every day, I can't
> imagine using it for entry into Nahuatl, particularly without a
> teacher.  Thelma Sullivan's grammar, particularly together with
> Carochi, seems to me to be an easy way to accumulate enough
> familiarity with the language so that one can read Andrews with more
> profit.
>   Andrews' presentation of the language aims at a much deeper
> theoretical view of the language, in a model of grammar that is
> simply *his*.  His presentation is not like the presentation of
> grammatical reasoning among linguists trained in the second half of
> the last century -- namely, pulling the reader along with
> *reasons* for believing the forms that he posits as basic and
> *reasons* for believing his lines of derivation.  The reader is
> expected to believe all the details because they are *declared*.  I
> have found (in both the first edition and the revised one) that in
> cases where I might not go along with his explanation on first,
> second, and third reading, I later found support for his point of
> view in some other part of the grammar.  This leads to some increase
> in faith in places where you are not initially convinced by his
> presentation.
>   On the other hand, his "reach" for the depths of the grammar, a
> subtle picture of the soul of the language, sometimes stretches
> beyond what is supported by the observable facts.  This would lead
> some people to think of parts of the description to leave the arena
> of "science" and cross the border into "religion".
>
>   To shorten a story that threatens to become too long, my personal
> leaning would be to start with Sullivan and Carochi.  ...and proceed
> with Andrews later.
>
> I am sure that you will enjoy all of the time you dedicate to Nahuatl.
>
> Joe
>
> Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:
>
>> Listeros,
>>
>> I have been attempting to learn without a teacher and have accumulated
>> several books, Andrews Grammar and workbook, Kartunen, Carocci and finally
>> Thelma Sullivan. I can read Sullivan but find that it does not follow all
>> Andrews NNC and VNC patterns.
>>
>> I am learning from Thelma Sullivan and would like some assurance that this
>> will not set me on a path that leads to future failure by not following
>> correct grammar.
>>
>> I would like to have some offers of help via the web; help anyone?
>>
>> --
>> We are connected
>>
>> Owen
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>





_______________________________________________
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sun Aug 26 17:21:51 2007
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:21:51 -0500
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
Message-ID: <SUN.26.AUG.2007.122151.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

More for Owen:

 

To get my first footing in early colonial Nahuatl, I used Campbell's and
Karttunen's Foundation Course with Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary, and
had Andrews' Introduction to Classical Nahuatl (1st. ed.) close at hand. All
three use the same orthography, which restores missing glottal stops and
long vowels. My only problem with the Foundation Course is the blending of
colonial and modern forms, but its clarity and didactic virtues more than
offset this aspect. Of course Molina's work, particularly his vocabularies
of 1571 and Carochi's 1645 Arte are indispensable. Lockhart's Nahuatl as
Written is full of invaluable advice, and goes well with his critical
edition of Carochi. I agree with Joe that Andrews has a profound vision of
Nahuatl grammar, that he's better at making rules that explaining them, and
that a beginner would have a rough time digesting his grammar, particularly
in its second, more radically independent edition. I differ with my
distinguished colleagues on the utility of Sullivan's Compendium as a
beginning text. Michael mentions her problems with grammatical analyses, but
the real drawback to this grammar is that its phonological foundations are
deeply flawed, particularly regarding vowels, the consonant /w/ (often
written with u, v, uh, or hu in colonial sources), and the consonant /kw/
(written cu, qu, uc, or cuh in the sources). Sullivan often reads the letter
u in uh and cuh as a vowel /u/, which really didn't exist, except as an
allophone of /o/. This reflects the state of the art in the mid-twentieth
century, which was surpassed in the 1970s with Andrews's and Launeys'
grammars. Sullivan's Compendium, in fact, was born outdated, since it was
first published (in Spanish) in 1976, a year after the first edition of
Andrews' Introduction. If one began with Sullivan, one would have to unlearn
a lot of things later on, and unlearning can be harder than learning.

 

However colonial Nahuatl is first approached, I recommend having a big pile
of sources at hand, then focusing on one grammar and a dictionary that uses
the same (or similar)orthography as basic sources, the rest standing by as
references for specific questions. This may be done with Campbell/Karttunen
(Foundation Course) and Karttunen (Analytical Dictionary). A good
alternative, I think, would be Lockhart's Nahuatl as Written together with
his edition of Carochi and Molina as the main dictionary, although with this
method the student would focus less on phonological precision and more on
practical matters.

 

Bibliography

 

Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, Austin/London,
University of Texas Press, 1975.

 

Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition,
Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003.

 

Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, workbook,
Austin/London, University of Texas Press, 1975.

 

Andrews, J. Richard, Workbook for introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised
edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003.

 

Campbell, R. Joe; Karttunen, Frances, Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar,
volume 1: text and exercises, xerox edition, Missoula, The University of
Montana, 1989.

 

Campbell, R. Joe; Karttunen, Frances, Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar,
volume 2: vocabulary and key, xerox edition, Missoula, The University of
Montana, 1989.

 

Carochi, Horacio, Arte de la lengua mexicana con la declaraci?n de los
adverbios della, facs?mil de la ed. de 1645, Miguel Le?n-Portilla, editor,
Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas/Instituto de
Investigaciones Hist?ricas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1983.

 

Carochi, Horacio, Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its
adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, translator and editor, Stanford/Los Angeles,
Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications, 2001.

 

Karttunen, Frances, An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, 2nd. ed., Norman,
University of Oklahoma Press, 1992.

 

Launey, Michel, Introduction ? la langue et ? la litt?rature Azt?ques, tome
1 : grammaire, facsimile of the 1979 ed., Paris, L?Harmattan, 1995.

 

Lockhart, James, Nahuatl as written, lessons in older written nahuatl, with
copious examples and texts, Stanford/Los ?ngeles, Stanford University
Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications, 2001.

 

Molina, Alonso de, Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y mexicana y
castellana, 3rd. facsimile ed. of the 1880 ed., intoductory study by Miguel
Le?n-Portilla, Mexico, Editorial Porr?a, 1992.

 

Sullivan, Thelma D., Compendio de la gram?tica n?huatl, 1a. reimpresi?n de
la 1a. ed., M?xico, Instituto de Investigaciones Hist?ricas, Universidad
Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1983.

 

Sullivan, Thelma D., Compendio de la gram?tica n?huatl, 2a. reimpresi?n de
la 2a. ed., M?xico, Instituto de Investigaciones Hist?ricas, Universidad
Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1998.

 

Observations:

 

Facsimile versions of early all of the colonial grammars, vocabularies, and
related sources are on one compact disc, available form the Digibis website:
Obras cl?sicas sobre la lengua n?huatl, digital ed., Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de
Le?n-Portilla, editor, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre
Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998.

 

I wish I had a copy of Joe Campbell's dictionary. All I have are a few
notecards I made at the Princeton University Library five years ago. Joe, I
think the time is ripe for a second edition, with all the recent interest in
Nahuatl! If not as a book, at least on CD! Campbell, R. Joe, A morphological
dictionary of classical nahuatl, a morpheme index to the Vocabulario en
lengua mexicana y castellana of fray Alonso de Molina, Madison, Hispanic
Seminary of Medieval Studies, 1985.
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Mon Aug 27 17:03:00 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:03:00 -0400
Subject: Starting to learn Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <1552.137.143.153.77.1188063079.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.AUG.2007.130300.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Nocnihuan,

   Another member of the Nahuat-l list and I have corresponded about
the Andrews grammar and he suggested that I contribute some of my
observations to the list.  This is an attempt to communicate some of
my disorganized notes and worries to the group and encourage
discussion of the issues.

   I would preface these notes with a few general statements:

1)   Anyone who is seriously interested in Nahuatl should read Fran's
    review article on twelve publications (including Andrews'
    grammar):
    Frances Karttunen, "Nahuatl for the Twenty-First Century",
    Ethnohistory, Vol. 52, No. 2, pp. 449-477 (2005).

     A PDF version is available for download:
      http://ethnohistory.dukejournals.org/content/vol52/issue2/


2)   In spite of any worries and criticisms that I have about his
    grammars (the first edition and the considerably revised edition),
    I admire his work and feel fortunate to have gained from using it.

3.   Most of comments pertain to my own interest in Nahuatl, focused
    of the details of word formation.  As a "grammarian" I hope that
    our statements about morphology will enlighten people about
    the way the language "really" works; I do not consider our job to be
    making arbitrary hypotheses about how the language "might"
    work.  I think that our statements about grammatical mechanisms
    should be backed up by some kind of evidence.
      About forty years ago, one of my iconic experiences was hearing
    about one of my respected colleagues teaching a linguistics class;
    his reponse to a graduate student's solution to a problem was "That
    has     nothing to say for it except for the fact that it *works*."
    He was making the point that our solutions aim at some degree
    of "truth", not at being just *one* of the candidates of
    possible answers.


* * * * * * * * *

Some specific quibbles (all page numbers refer to the revised edition):
I will enclose quotes from Andrews' grammar in ((...)).


* * * * * * * * *

p. 574.

  ((ohhuia: to be like a road, i.e., to pose a danger, to be
dangerous/difficult...))

It might be that danger and road are related concepts in Nahuatl,
but there is no reason given to believe this.  Morphological
relationships rest mainly on two kinds of evidence: 1) form (i.e.,
the phonological shape, and 2) function (i.e., semantic content,
meaning).

* * * * * * * * *

p. 189.

((Among the destockal verbstems with  ni  as the stem formative are
two that are no longer extant but serve as the source for derived
stems (see #27.4.3):

*po-o:-ni > *(po:-ni) = to emit smoke

*to-o:-ni > *(to:-ni) = to run))

[[referring, respectively, to  popo:ca  and  toto:ca]]

This is based on the behavior of verbs like  pozo:ni  and patla:ni
that have intransitive reduplicated forms (in addition to their
normal ones) of:  popozo:ca  and  papatla:ca.
While one certainly wants to attend to possibly relevant data such
as the mechanisms involved in these latter verbs, it is *not* the
case that any two identical syllables in sequence are necessarily to
be interpreted as due to the process of reduplication.  It is
entirely possible that  popo:ca is either 1) lexically just what it
appears to be (i.e.  popo:ca) or 2) a reduplication of  po:ca.

* * * * * * * * *

p. 436

(under the topic: particle-look NNCs)

((cue:l ... it is in the manner of a crease; i.e., briefly suddenly,
quickly

cue:lihui = to become bent/folded))

I believe that semantic relationships may be hard to see because
there may be a succession of "bridges" or because one's culture and
the semantics of his language is so different from the language
being analyzed, but, in the absence of some explicit rationale as to
why "crease" and "suddenly" are might be related, this claim leaves
me dubious.  I don't send my bank account number to someone in
Canada or Germany who promises to reward me with millions of dollars
from unclaimed funds in a Nigerian bank account.


* * * * * * * * *

p. 441

((ichtaca (steal)  <  ich-tequi
    in the manner of one who cuts maguey leaves))

Aside from the unaccounted for difference between -taca and the
well-known verb  tequi, is there some cultural evidence to lead one
to believe that the language codifies a relationship between theft
of maguey leaves and stealing?


* * * * * * * * *

p. 283

((unique noun stems as fillers

*(te:l)-li + (po:ch)-tli-, "incense smoke" = (te:l-po:ch)-tli-,
  "a youth, young man"))

If one were looking for an example to teach morphology, this one
would be a highly ranked candidate for what to reject.  One of the
elements is unattested with no semantic connection; the other
element matches the *form* for "incense smoke", but has no semantic
connection to the notion of "youth".


* * * * * * * * *

I will have some more to add, but getting it ready will take time... |8-)

Iztayohmeh,

Joe

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Aug 28 15:05:55 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:05:55 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.110555.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>


-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Tue Aug 28 16:10:14 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:10:14 -0700
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <46D439D3.7010003@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.091014.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

On Aug 28, 2007, at 8:05 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:
> The top ten indigenous groups were:
> 	N?huatl        2,563,000
> 	Maya            1,490,000
> 	Zapoteco        785,000
> 	Mixteco           764,000
> 	Otom?               566,000
> 	Tzetzal            547,000
> 	Tzotzil              514,000
> 	Totonaca        410,000
> 	Mazateco       339,000
> 	Chol                274,000
Looking at this strikes a question that has been in my mind.
I work as a spanish english medical and legal interpreter.  In the  
course of the last 18 months I have run into many people speaking one  
of the mayan dialects, Yucatec and Quiche being the most common,  
Zapotec and Mixtec as well as a few who speak Cora and Tarascan (or  
was it Tarahumara or was it Huichol *NW mountain range*?).  But never  
have I found people who are bilingual spanish nahuatl.  I wondered if  
it was because most nahuatl speakers ARE bilingual and thus I don't  
know about it.  But people chat with me and I find out from names and  
in general conversation about where they've come from.  The other  
explanation that comes to mind is that the nahua don't want to come  
to the USA... but then, why would the maya come in such numbers?
This is the rankest curiosity; since I am interested in learning to  
speak nahuatl, I've been paying attention and asking questions.  Does  
anybody have a hypothesis?
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Aug 28 16:56:09 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:56:09 -0400
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <9FE732FD-95CB-404B-9AB3-077E9B701E89@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.125609.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

A month does not go by that someone from around the US contacts me to 
try to find a Nahuatl interpreter for some proceeding.  So in fact there 
are mono-lingual Nahuatl speakers here in the US.  I would, however, 
posit on the basis of no empirical data, that many of the Nahuatl 
speakers here are also bi-lingual in Spanish and as such when confronted 
with a problem are forced to rely on Spanish, since the courts and 
offices have Spanish interpreters.  Similarly, I know for a fact hat the 
prisons of California and Arizona have significant Nahuatl speaking 
populations because I am continually contacted by other prisoners, and 
by guards, about how to learn the language.  So, I know that there are 
fairly large numbers of Nahuatl speakers here in the US.



Kier Salmon wrote:
> I wondered if it was because most nahuatl speakers ARE bilingual and 
> thus I don't know about it.  But people chat with me and I find out 
> from names and in general conversation about where they've come from.  
> The other explanation that comes to mind is that the nahua don't want 
> to come to the USA... but then, why would the maya come in such numbers?
> This is the rankest curiosity; since I am interested in learning to 
> speak nahuatl, I've been paying attention and asking questions.  Does 
> anybody have a hypothesis?
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From micc2 at cox.net  Tue Aug 28 17:05:39 2007
From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2 at cox.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:05:39 -0700
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.100539.0700.>

Piali compaleh huan comaleh,

I have worked for a short time interpreting for  a few Nahuatl defendants in court (mostly immigration cases).  The men I have worked with have come from the sierra de Puebla, and Guerrero. Based in this tiny sample,  It seems that most Nahuatl workers first go to Mexico City, Matamoros, Nuevo Laredo,or Ciudad Juarez.. Here in San Diego county, there is a large Mixteco community, as there is in L.A. county. I know of only one family of Nahuatl speakers. they came here from Guerrero. I also know there is one Huichol artisan that lives here. 

Perhaps until now, the Nahuatl speakers lived in more economically sustainable areas than the Mixteco and Maya. i have only met one Purepecha speaking immigrant here in San Diego, and a few Yoremi.


Mario
www.mexicayotl.org





---- Kier Salmon <k_salmon at ipinc.net> wrote: 
> On Aug 28, 2007, at 8:05 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:
> > The top ten indigenous groups were:
> > 	N?huatl        2,563,000
> > 	Maya            1,490,000
> > 	Zapoteco        785,000
> > 	Mixteco           764,000
> > 	Otom?               566,000
> > 	Tzetzal            547,000
> > 	Tzotzil              514,000
> > 	Totonaca        410,000
> > 	Mazateco       339,000
> > 	Chol                274,000
> Looking at this strikes a question that has been in my mind.
> I work as a spanish english medical and legal interpreter.  In the  
> course of the last 18 months I have run into many people speaking one  
> of the mayan dialects, Yucatec and Quiche being the most common,  
> Zapotec and Mixtec as well as a few who speak Cora and Tarascan (or  
> was it Tarahumara or was it Huichol *NW mountain range*?).  But never  
> have I found people who are bilingual spanish nahuatl.  I wondered if  
> it was because most nahuatl speakers ARE bilingual and thus I don't  
> know about it.  But people chat with me and I find out from names and  
> in general conversation about where they've come from.  The other  
> explanation that comes to mind is that the nahua don't want to come  
> to the USA... but then, why would the maya come in such numbers?
> This is the rankest curiosity; since I am interested in learning to  
> speak nahuatl, I've been paying attention and asking questions.  Does  
> anybody have a hypothesis?
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Tue Aug 28 17:12:41 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:12:41 -0700
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <46D453A9.7030300@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.101241.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Ah!  I've noticed that certain states of the US attract more people  
from certain states of Mexico and Central America.  In Oregon, where  
I lived until 3 weeks ago, our hispanic population is composed of  
Michoacanecos, Yucatecos and Guatemalan people... about 80% with  
vanishingly smaller proportions from a few other states.  So, it  
probably is that the Willamette Valley doesn't attract that  
particular set of people.
But here in Seattle a large Oaxaque?an population seems to be the norm.
I know the interpreter service I've sub-contracted for does not have  
nahuatl as an option, but does have 4 varieties of Maya.  Thanks!

On Aug 28, 2007, at 9:56 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:

> A month does not go by that someone from around the US contacts me  
> to try to find a Nahuatl interpreter for some proceeding.  So in  
> fact there are mono-lingual Nahuatl speakers here in the US.  I  
> would, however, posit on the basis of no empirical data, that many  
> of the Nahuatl speakers here are also bi-lingual in Spanish and as  
> such when confronted with a problem are forced to rely on Spanish,  
> since the courts and offices have Spanish interpreters.  Similarly,  
> I know for a fact hat the prisons of California and Arizona have  
> significant Nahuatl speaking populations because I am continually  
> contacted by other prisoners, and by guards, about how to learn the  
> language.  So, I know that there are fairly large numbers of  
> Nahuatl speakers here in the US.
>
>
>
> Kier Salmon wrote:
>> I wondered if it was because most nahuatl speakers ARE bilingual  
>> and thus I don't know about it.  But people chat with me and I  
>> find out from names and in general conversation about where  
>> they've come from.  The other explanation that comes to mind is  
>> that the nahua don't want to come to the USA... but then, why  
>> would the maya come in such numbers?
>> This is the rankest curiosity; since I am interested in learning  
>> to speak nahuatl, I've been paying attention and asking  
>> questions.  Does anybody have a hypothesis?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> -- 
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Aug 28 17:12:34 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:12:34 -0400
Subject: Subject:,
 Re: [Nahuat-l] Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.131234.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

From:  micc2 at cox.net
Date:
 Tue, 28 Aug 2007


Piali compaleh huan comaleh,

I have worked for a short time interpreting for a few Nahuatl defendants in
court (mostly immigration cases). The men I have worked with have come from
the Sierra de Puebla, and Guerrero. Based in this tiny sample, It seems
that most Nahuatl workers first go to Mexico City, Matamoros, Nuevo
Laredo,or Ciudad Juarez.. Here in San Diego county, there is a large Mixteco
community, as there is in L.A. county. I know of only one family of Nahuatl
speakers. they came here from Guerrero. I also know there is one Huichol
artisan that lives here.

Perhaps until now, the Nahuatl speakers lived in more economically
sustainable areas than the Mixteco and Maya. I have only met one Purepecha
speaking immigrant here in San Diego, and a few Yoremi.


Mario
www.mexicayotl.org

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From idiez at mac.com  Tue Aug 28 17:49:19 2007
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:49:19 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak
 Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <46D439D3.7010003@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.124919.0500.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

John,
That map is deceiving. It reports to show the number of indigenous  
people, not the number of native speakers. Don?t ask me what criteria  
they used to identify these people (From the perspective of the  
native speakers I work with, being a native speaker is a requirement  
for claiming indigenous identity. This is obviously very different  
from US indigenous identity). If you want a more reliable number of  
native speakers, go to
http://www.inegi.gob.mx/est/default.aspx?c=2397
John


El 28/08/2007, a las 10:05 AM, John F. Schwaller escribi?:

>
> -- 
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>
>
> De: David Brye <davebrye at gemtel.com.mx>
> Fecha: 27 de agosto de 2007 03:58:42 PM GMT-05:00
> Para: Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Asunto: Re: [Aztlan] Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl
>
>
> Around 1998, the Secretar?a de Educaci?n P?blica and CONACULTA of  
> the Mexican government published a map of La Diversidad Cultural de  
> M?xico: Los Pueblos Ind?genas y sus 62 Idiomas based on 1997  
> estimates of the indigenous population of the country. Normally, 62  
> is given as the number of indigenous groups officially recognized  
> by the government. I'm not clear on what is meant by autonomous in  
> this context.
>
> The top ten indigenous groups were:
> 	N?huatl        2,563,000
> 	Maya            1,490,000
> 	Zapoteco        785,000
> 	Mixteco           764,000
> 	Otom?               566,000
> 	Tzetzal            547,000
> 	Tzotzil              514,000
> 	Totonaca        410,000
> 	Mazateco       339,000
> 	Chol                274,000
>
> The 16 smallest groups of the 62 number less than 1,000 each.
>
> On Aug 22, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Webmaster wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> While I was on vacation I learned the Mexico has over 100 (gov  
>> recognized)
>> indigenous peoples with appx. 30 of them autonomous.
>>
>> Of these autonomous peoples, does anyone know how many speak  
>> predominantly
>> Nahua?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>> Un saludo,
>>
>> Daniel Maldonado
>> Webmaster
>> http://chicanoforums.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From amoxtli at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 28 17:41:47 2007
From: amoxtli at earthlink.net (Walter O. Koenig)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:41:47 -0700
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <46D453A9.7030300@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.104147.0700.AMOXTLI@EARTHLINK.NET>

I was recently contacted by a prisoner from Arizona who wrote a  
letter in excellent english asking me for Nahuatl resources. I have  
heard from several sources that prisoners were using Nahuatl to  
communicate with one another so the guards would not understand them.  
In fact, I know someone who was asked by prison authorities not to  
provide Nahuatl resources. Does anyone know more about this, and if  
you have received letters from prisoners how do you respond to them?  
The prisoner evidently got my address from the Nahua Newsletter.

Best Wishes,

Walter O. Koenig




On Aug 28, 2007, at 9:56 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:

> A month does not go by that someone from around the US contacts me  
> to try to find a Nahuatl interpreter for some proceeding.  So in  
> fact there are mono-lingual Nahuatl speakers here in the US.  I  
> would, however, posit on the basis of no empirical data, that many  
> of the Nahuatl speakers here are also bi-lingual in Spanish and as  
> such when confronted with a problem are forced to rely on Spanish,  
> since the courts and offices have Spanish interpreters.  Similarly,  
> I know for a fact hat the prisons of California and Arizona have  
> significant Nahuatl speaking populations because I am continually  
> contacted by other prisoners, and by guards, about how to learn the  
> language.  So, I know that there are fairly large numbers of  
> Nahuatl speakers here in the US.
>
>
>
> Kier Salmon wrote:
>> I wondered if it was because most nahuatl speakers ARE bilingual  
>> and thus I don't know about it.  But people chat with me and I  
>> find out from names and in general conversation about where  
>> they've come from.  The other explanation that comes to mind is  
>> that the nahua don't want to come to the USA... but then, why  
>> would the maya come in such numbers?
>> This is the rankest curiosity; since I am interested in learning  
>> to speak nahuatl, I've been paying attention and asking  
>> questions.  Does anybody have a hypothesis?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> -- 
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Aug 28 17:55:42 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:55:42 -0400
Subject: Autonomous Indigenous People Who Speak Nahuatl]
In-Reply-To: <AB61E6FE-ADAF-4C07-BADC-F40667613C78@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.AUG.2007.135542.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Over the 10 or so years that I have been making Campbell and Karttunen 
available I'd say that maybe 1/3 of the requests come from prisons.  Of 
those 90% are from inmates, the rest from guards.  Beyond that I do not 
provide tutoring services or bibliographic services.  Prisoners ask me 
for all kinds of things to help them learn the language, but I am simply 
not equipped to do that, nor do I have the time in my schedule.  I 
politely decline the opportunity to send them more materials or to 
answer their specific grammatical questions.




Walter O. Koenig wrote:
> I was recently contacted by a prisoner from Arizona who wrote a letter 
> in excellent english asking me for Nahuatl resources. I have heard 
> from several sources that prisoners were using Nahuatl to communicate 
> with one another so the guards would not understand them. In fact, I 
> know someone who was asked by prison authorities not to provide 
> Nahuatl resources. Does anyone know more about this, and if you have 
> received letters from prisoners how do you respond to them? The 
> prisoner evidently got my address from the Nahua Newsletter.
>
> Best Wishes,


-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Aug 30 18:06:39 2007
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:06:39 -0500
Subject: La ense�anza de las lenguas ind�ge nas en M�xico
Message-ID: <THU.30.AUG.2007.130639.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Listerotzitzin:
 
Volviendo a la discusi?n sobre la ense?anza de las lenguas ind?genas en
M?xico, hoy me lleg? la convocatoria que se reproduce a continuaci?n. En el
pre?mbulo hay un buen balance del estado de la cuesti?n.
 
Saludos,
 
David Wright
 

Contacto: uspelci at upn.mx
........................

UPN-CIESAS-UNAM-INALI-DGEI

Fecha: 21 y 22 de febrero 2008

Sede: UPN-Ajusco. D.F.



Convocan al

1? Encuentro Nacional de Ense?anza de Lenguas Ind?genas e
Investigaci?n Aplicada

Problem?tica:

A casi treinta a?os de la instituci?n del modelo biling?e en las escuelas
del subsistema de Educaci?n ind?gena y de las primeras investigaciones sobre
las pr?cticas de estas escuelas, se han desarrollado una serie de
experiencias, de grupo o aisladas, que no han logrado a?n generalizarse de
manera amplia. Estas representan, sin embargo, un logro importante a partir
del cual es posible hacer avanzar la implantaci?n del modelo, en un momento
en el cual las necesidades de atenci?n de la diversidad ling??stica se han
ampliado. En efecto, la creaci?n de la Coordinaci?n Intercultural Biling?e
en el 2000, la Ley de los Derechos Ling??sticos de los Pueblos Ind?genas
publicada en el 2003, y las recomendaciones internacionales para la
atenci?n de los derechos de las poblaciones originarias, han ampliado el
marco de acci?n para la difusi?n, la ense?anza, el mantenimiento y el
rescate de las lenguas habladas en el pa?s.

La creaci?n de universidades, bachilleratos y secundarias interculturales,
la atenci?n educativa de las poblaciones ind?genas migrantes y la
obligaci?n de instituciones p?blicas de contar con servicios de traducci?n
para ejercer sus funciones, tienden a la ampliaci?n de los espacios
comunicativos para las lenguas ind?genas y con ello la necesidad de
desarrollar una base s?lida de investigaci?n aplicada a su ense?anza.

Al mismo tiempo, la investigaci?n sobre la aplicaci?n de los modelos
biling?es se ha desarrollado de manera amplia en los ?ltimos veinte a?os
para las lenguas de prestigio y las lenguas minoritarias de los pa?ses
desarrollados en los cuales las necesidades de los intercambios
internacionales, la constituci?n de nuevos conglomerados de naciones como la
CEE, las fuertes corrientes migatorias y las reivindicaciones de los grupos
minoritarios al interior de estas, han obligado a los sistemas educativos a
ofrecer una ense?anza eficaz de las lenguas y a resolver los problemas que
les plantea la constituci?n de clases multiculturales y multi?tnicas. A
todo esto se unen las ?ltimas recomendaciones internacionales que, en
materia de pol?tica ling??stica, han planteado la necesidad de preservar las
lenguas. Estas recomendaciones se basan en la concepci?n seg?n la cual las
lenguas del mundo son la expresi?n de culturas que interact?an con el medio
natural y social. En esta perspectiva se consideran como nichos
ling??sticos. La preservaci?n de lenguas y culturas, as? como su
conocimiento se consideran como requisitos para poder proponer proyectos de
desarrollo sustentable tomando en cuenta la generalidad de recursos tanto
naturales como sociales. (Calvet Louis-Jean, 1999, Pour une ?cologie des
langues du monde, Ed. Plon, Paris)

Los estudios sobre biling?ismo han desarrollado una serie de
conceptualizaciones, pero en su definici?n m?s general se refieren al sujeto
que posee dos c?digos sin plantearse el nivel de manejo de ?stos y lo
abordan desde perspectivas distintas, cognitivas, sociales, individuales, de
orden de adquisici?n, etc., seg?n el tipo de intervenci?n que se requiera.
Sin embargo lo que es interesante resaltar es que estas investigaciones han
mostrado que el aprendizaje temprano de dos lenguas desarrolla competencias
particulares como una mayor posibilidad de abstracci?n del hecho debido a
una mayor conciencia de las operaciones metaling??sticas por la percepci?n
de la arbitrariedad de los signos ling??sticos. (S?nchez L P. Y Rodr?gues,
1997, El biling?ismo. Bases para la intervenci?n psicol?gica, Ed. S?ntesis,
Madrid). Es decir que el ni?o biling?e aprende tempranamente que los nombres
con los que designamos a las cosas son convencionales puesto que nombrados
de manera diferente en una lengua y otra y en ese sentido desarrolla un
potencial para el manejo de los lenguajes convencionales, como las
matem?ticas. Los estudios llevados a cabo por el ling?ista Jim Cummins han
sido conclusivos en este sentido. (Cummins, Jim, 2002, Lenguaje, poder y
pedagog?a: ni?os y ni?as biling?es entre dos fuegos, Ministerio de
Educaci?n, Cultura y Deporte : Morata, Madrid)

Sin embargo, los ni?os ind?genas, siendo biling?es, presentan los grados de
rendimiento escolar m?s bajos del sistema educativo nacional. Las
explicaciones que se han dado a esta situaci?n son m?ltiples, podemos
resumir diciendo de manera muy esquem?tica que la situaci?n de minor?a
ling??stica y de desvalorizaci?n de las lenguas ind?genas ha llevado a una
pr?ctica castellanizadora en la cual la lengua materna es desplazada por la
segunda lengua. En ese sentido, el ideal promovido es tender hacia el
monoling?ismo y de ah?, una imposibilidad de desarrollo de las competencias
que aporta el ser biling?e.

La situaci?n hace a?n m?s necesario el desarrollo de investigaciones tanto
sobre los efectos del biling?ismo en el aprendizaje escolar como para el
desarrollo de metodolog?as de ense?anza apropiadas al sujeto biling?e en el
contexto de las lenguas ind?genas. Esto define la particularidad de un
campo, en el que a?n queda mucho por hacer, y que presenta problem?ticas que
conciernen a la estandarizaci?n de las lenguas y a la falta de documentaci?n
sobre las caracter?sticas estructurales de ?stas.

Sin embargo, la investigaci?n para la aplicaci?n e implantaci?n del modelo
biling?e dirigido a la poblaci?n hablante de una lengua ind?gena se enfrenta
a la escasa oferta de las instituciones de educaci?n superior para la
especializaci?n en la educaci?n biling?e. Las experiencias se han
desarrollado como proyectos independientes de estas instituciones y los
intercambios son a?n limitados por lo que su generalizaci?n hacia el resto
de las escuelas se da de manera lenta. Por otro lado, la investigaci?n
necesita plantearse en la direcci?n de los estudios sobre los modelos
biling?es desarrollados a nivel mundial, conjugando enfoques
interdisciplinarios, fundamentalmente entre la antropolog?a, la ling??stica
y la pedagog?a para adaptarlos al contexto de las lenguas ind?genas, pero
sobre todo es importante la implicaci?n de los propios hablantes de las
lenguas, biling?es ellos mismos, para contrarrestar en las investigaciones,
la perspectiva metodol?gica que da la influencia de la lengua nacional y la
tendencia al monoling?ismo. La aplicaci?n de los enfoques desarrollados para
las lenguas mayoritarias a las lenguas minorizadas puede, cuando se plantea
en una perspectiva de relatividad ling??stica, enriquecer e incluso
transformar el campo de la did?ctica de la lengua al generar nuevos datos
sobre fen?menos ling??sticos y comunicativos.

El intercambio entre las experiencias concretas y la investigaci?n puede
generar un verdadero espacio de desarrollo de la investigaci?n aplicada al
campo de la ense?anza de lenguas y en este sentido incidir en el sistema
educativo nacional al proyectar m?todos de ense?anza y aprendizaje de
lenguas, generados en las escuelas biling?es, hacia las escuelas monoling?es
para desarrollar las competencias biling?es en la mayor?a de la poblaci?n.

La misi?n de las instituciones de educaci?n superior, de cumplir con las
funciones sustantivas de docencia, investigaci?n y difusi?n representa una
oportunidad en este I Seminario de Ense?anza y aprendizaje de Lenguas
Ind?genas e Investigaci?n Aplicada, a fin de presentar de manera conjunta,
tanto avances y resultados de investigaciones como problemas y caminos
trazados por la xperiencia de los interesados en la ense?anza de las lenguas
ind?genas.

Desde esta perspectiva se proponen los siguientes objetivos:
* Conocer avances y resultados de investigaci?n aplicada, problemas y
necesidades de experiencias educativas relacionadas con la ense?anza de
lenguas ind?genas.
* Establecer contacto entre agentes vinculados a la investigaci?n aplicada y
pr?cticas de ense?anza de lenguas ind?genas en el marco de la educaci?n
biling?e.

A trav?s de las siguientes mesas:
* Aplicaciones de Modelos Biling?es
* Ense?anza de la primera lengua (lengua ind?gena)
* Ense?anza de la segunda lengua (espa?ol y lenguas ind?genas)
* Estandarizaci?n
* Interferencia ling??stica

Conferencia Magistral: Dr. Jos? Luis Iturrios Leza.

Fecha: 21 y 22 de febrero 2008

Sede: UPN-Ajusco. D.F.

La fecha l?mite para env?o de res?menes es el 30 de noviembre de 2007.

La direcci?n para el env?o es: uspelci at upn.mx
Informes: 56 30 97 00 ext. 1308
Correo: uspelci at upn.mx

Se invita a los ponentes y asistentes a presentar materiales educativos para
organizar una exposici?n en la explanada de la universidad.

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From sylvia at famsi.org  Fri Aug 31 19:38:37 2007
From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:38:37 -0400
Subject: New at FAMSI--Grantee Reports; Informes y Traducciones
Message-ID: <FRI.31.AUG.2007.153837.0400.>

Hello Mesoamericanists,

New grantee research reports and translations posted at FAMSI website 
include:

The Naranjo Rescue Project: New Data from the Preclassic
Guatemala (2006)
by Barbara Arroyo.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06109/index.html

The Sociopolitical Configuration in the City of Q'um'arkaj: The
Palaces and Nimja or Long Houses of the Chinamit Nija'ib' (2006)
by Micaela Raquel Macario Calgua.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06044/index.html

The Household and Estate of a Mexica Lord: "Informacion de
dona Isabel de Moctezuma", Mexico (2006)
by Anastasia Kalyuta.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06045/index.html

Dieseldorff Collection: Ceramic Corpus of the Terminal Classic
Originating from Molds (2004)
by Monica Alejandra Perez Galindo.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/03074/index.html


Informes en Espanol:

Sistemas Hidraulicos en el Centro de Cancuen: Ritual, Reserva
y/o Drenaje? (2005)
por Tomas Jose Barrientos Quezada.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05082es/index.html

Las piedras verdes en el centro de Jalisco (2004)
por Lorenza Lopez Mestas Camberos.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/03083es/index.html


Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos del Ingles
al Espanol:

El Proyecto del Balsas Medio: Una Investigacion Sobre
Funcionalidad y Cronologia de la Ceramica (2006)
por Jennifer Meanwell.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06021es/index.html

Los Incensarios Efigie de Mayapan: Iconografia, Contexto y
Conexiones Externas (2005)
por Susan Milbrath.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05025es/index.html

Investigacion sobre Produccion de Gienes de Prestigio de Jade
en el Valle Medio del Motagua, Guatemala (2005)
por Erick T. Rochette.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05069es/index.html

Investigaciones Arqueologicas en Holmul, Guatemala (1999)
por Francisco Estrada-Belli.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/98010es/index.html

Saludos,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html

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