From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Dec  1 01:03:23 2007
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:03:23 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.200323.0500.KARTTU@NANTUCKET.NET>

The use of the word Nahuatl as a language name and the term Nahuah as  
an ethnic term have been mined out of old sources, but I am not sure  
they were much used in precontact time.

Nahuatlahtolli 'clear, intelligible speech' was contrasted with  
popoloca 'to speak gibberish.' so the Mesoamerican world could be  
divided into "us" and "them" in terms of "people whose language is  
mutually intelligible with ours" and "people whose language is  
unintelligible."

That's different from Mexihcatl/Mexihcah, Acolhuah/Acolhuahqueh, etc.

Fran

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From oenthomas at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 15:41:14 2007
From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 09:41:14 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <98495BD4-6571-420F-A7C0-8A07A5F4AFE2@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2007.094114.0600.OENTHOMAS@GMAIL.COM>

Frances and listeros,

Your Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl is an excellent source for entering
into study of the variations of theme on a sound. I recommend it to any who
has interest in 'NAHUA-TL. There are many more words very similar in your
dictionary., such as 'NAHUALIZ-TLI', translated by you as 'sorcery'.

I find this very curious in conjunction with the popular books by Carlos
Castaneda that concentrate on the mysterious figure of a Mexican magician
called  'the nagual'.  Is htere anyone who has researched the history of
various uses in this family of sounds?

On Nov 30, 2007 7:03 PM, Frances Karttunen <karttu at nantucket.net> wrote:

> The use of the word Nahuatl as a language name and the term Nahuah as
> an ethnic term have been mined out of old sources, but I am not sure
> they were much used in precontact time.
>
> Nahuatlahtolli 'clear, intelligible speech' was contrasted with
> popoloca 'to speak gibberish.' so the Mesoamerican world could be
> divided into "us" and "them" in terms of "people whose language is
> mutually intelligible with ours" and "people whose language is
> unintelligible."
>
> That's different from Mexihcatl/Mexihcah, Acolhuah/Acolhuahqueh, etc.
>
> Fran
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



-- 
We are connected

Owen
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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Sat Dec  1 21:41:08 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:41:08 -0800
Subject: Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0712010741o6ce316b8wdc9421e5233a7c3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2007.134108.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

> I find this very curious in conjunction with the popular books by  
> Carlos Castaneda that concentrate on the mysterious figure of a  
> Mexican magician called  'the nagual'.  Is htere anyone who has  
> researched the history of various uses in this family of sounds?
I've always wondered about Nahualli - sorcerer.  It seemed to my  
uneducated guess to mean that sorcery and language were similar.  Or  
rather, that one altered the world by using words.  Given how  
important the Mexica found the whole concept of words, communication  
and written words, this makes sense to me.
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From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Dec  1 22:21:59 2007
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 17:21:59 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0712010741o6ce316b8wdc9421e5233a7c3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2007.172159.0500.KARTTU@NANTUCKET.NET>

On Dec 1, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Owen Thomas wrote:

> Frances and listeros,
>
> Your Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl is an excellent source for  
> entering into study of the variations of theme on a sound. I  
> recommend it to any who has interest in 'NAHUA-TL. There are many  
> more words very similar in your dictionary., such as 'NAHUALIZ- 
> TLI', translated by you as 'sorcery'.
>
> I find this very curious in conjunction with the popular books by  
> Carlos Castaneda that concentrate on the mysterious figure of a  
> Mexican magician called  'the nagual'.  Is htere anyone who has  
> researched the history of various uses in this family of sounds?
>


I have never been sure whether the na:hual- stem having to do with  
sorcery and stealth is derived from the same source as the na:hua-  
stem of adjacency, audibility, clarity of sound (na:huac, na:huati,  
na:huatl).

Fran
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From david_becraft at hotmail.com  Sun Dec  2 22:34:09 2007
From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 14:34:09 -0800
Subject: Nahua
In-Reply-To: <000001c8338e$5f41cea0$6701a8c0@CINDYDELLPC>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.DEC.2007.143409.0800.DAVIDBECRAFT@HOTMAIL.COM>







Hi Cindy,
 
Depending on where you are at, "Nahuas" refer to themselves as /macehualli/ --> /macehualtin/.  
 
pancho
 
From: cindy at grito-poetry.comTo: nahuatl at lists.famsi.orgDate: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:19:54 -0800Subject: [Nahuat-l] Nahua




Hello, all:
 
I was wondering if the Nahuas referred to themselves as “Nahua” or just as individual tribes (e.g., Mexica, Acolhua, etc.).  Does the term “Nahua’ originate from the fact that the tribes in the central valley of Mexico all spoke Nahuatl?  Does the word “Nahua” mean anything in Nahuatl?
 
Thank you,
Cindy WG
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
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From david_becraft at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  3 02:51:29 2007
From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:51:29 -0800
Subject: Nahua
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0712021455r11442e14kb34131e9ab1744b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.DEC.2007.185129.0800.DAVIDBECRAFT@HOTMAIL.COM>


I am referring to the Nahuatl that I used to hear in Puerto Vallarta, Xal; they were mostly from Guerrero
 
pancho


Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 15:55:09 -0700From: oenthomas at gmail.comTo: david_becraft at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Nahuat-l] NahuaCC: cindy at grito-poetry.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.orgPancho,I am at San Miguel de AllendeGTO, Mx.Where are you at? do the people there have an active conversation in some of the current dialects of Nahuatl? Which dialect?
On Dec 2, 2007 3:34 PM, David Becraft < david_becraft at hotmail.com> wrote:




Hi Cindy, Depending on where you are at, "Nahuas" refer to themselves as /macehualli/ --> /macehualtin/.   pancho From: cindy at grito-poetry.comTo: nahuatl at lists.famsi.orgDate: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:19:54 -0800 Subject: [Nahuat-l] Nahua 




Hello, all:
 
I was wondering if the Nahuas referred to themselves as "Nahua" or just as individual tribes (e.g., Mexica, Acolhua, etc.).  Does the term "Nahua' originate from the fact that the tribes in the central valley of Mexico all spoke Nahuatl?  Does the word "Nahua" mean anything in Nahuatl? 
 
Thank you,
Cindy WG
 
 

Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Connect now!_______________________________________________Nahuatl mailing listNahuatl at lists.famsi.orghttp://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl-- We are connectedOwen 
_________________________________________________________________
Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.  Join in.
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Thu Dec  6 16:00:11 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:00:11 -0500
Subject: Broken Spears - Broken Bones
Message-ID: <THU.6.DEC.2007.110011.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Colleagues,

The Library of Congress is opening a new permanent exhibit of materials 
dealing with the conquest and colonial period of Latin America.  I has 
served as a consultant, and they asked me to do a translation of two of 
the pieces from Leon Portilla's _Broken Spears_  One is the passage from 
the Anales de Tlatelolco that contains the disputed phrase "broken 
spears" which is in fact "broken bones" ("omitl" not "mitl")  The other 
is from the Cantares mexicanos, an elegy for Tlatelolco.

I offer these for your "pleasure."  These are very difficult passages to 
translate, and I was also forced into casting it into an English that 
would be accessible to the most general audience, so my apologies in 
advance for my poetic license.

----------------
Broken Bones Littered the Road



Thus in our place this happened; we saw it, we will marvel at it.  The 
crying, the pity caused us to suffer exhaustion.

Broken bones littered the road; crushed heads, roofless houses, walls 
were made red with blood.

Worms crawled through noses in the streets; the house walls were 
slippery with brains.

The water was dyed red with blood.  Thus we went along; we drank the 
brackish water.

Still, there an adobe foundation, here a well were protected with a 
shield. 

Still, in vain someone might toast something on a shield. 

We ate tzompantli wood, grass from the salt flats, the adobe bricks, the 
lizards, mice, bits of dust.

Worms were toasted on a shield; there, on the fire the meat was cooked.  
They ate it.


-------
Elegy for Tlatelolco


Only the poetry of mercy was spreading there in Mexico, there in 
Tlatelolco.  Beyond is only the Place of Recognition.

Giver of Life, it is good that you have favored, you have washed our 
faces.  Indeed, we your people will perish.

You have raged and indeed we went in misery, we people.  We saw the 
affliction in the Place of Knowledge.

You dispersed and destroyed your people in Tlatelolco.  Affliction upon 
affliction come fall down in the Place of Revelation, when we were 
weary, we were lazy, oh Giver of Life.

Teardrops fall, crying protection in Tlatelolco.  The Mexican women have 
gone to the lake.  Truly they take leave.  Where do our friends go?

Truly they leave the city, the water-hill, of Mexico.  Smoke rises, fog 
spreads there.  You caused it, oh Giver of Life.

Weep and realize this, oh friends: you have abandoned the Mexican 
people.  The water is bitter and the food is bitter.  The Giver of Life 
made this happen in Tlatelolco.

(c) 2007 J. F. Schwaller for the Library of Congress




-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From ECOLING at aol.com  Tue Dec 11 16:33:02 2007
From: ECOLING at aol.com (Lloyd Anderson)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:33:02 EST
Subject: DVD "The Other Conquest"
Message-ID: <TUE.11.DEC.2007.113302.EST.>

>>From its reputation, I was much looking forward to seeing this film,
made in Mexico, released in only a few cities of the Southwestern USA.

It is in Spanish and in Nahua, with English subtitles and some
Spanish subtitles also during Nahua portions.

I had heard it presents the conquest from the point of view of an Aztec
priest,
maneuvering simultaneously to keep his own people in their traditions,
and to deal with the Spanish.

I got a copy from Amazon.com, and took it to the Wayeb meetings
of the European Mayanists, the first week of December in Geneva.
We had a showing of the film there.

There is a bit of what I had understood the film to be by reputation.
But it is more a study of the psychology of one Friar and one Aztec priest
who is a captive in a monastery, supposedly being converted, but explicit
that the new religion can have his body, never his soul.  
Not much on the Aztec priest or the Nahua people as active agents
successfully manipulating the Spanish within the limits of the kinds of
power they had available to them.
No large and complex issues of social structure, no large scenes,
not much about the management of daily lives.

The film I had imagined still remains to be made, it is still a distant goal.
The audience for the showing in Geneva seemed to feel that
"The Other Conquest" still has quite a lot of stereotyping.  

One Mexican woman commented that it was like other films made by
Mexican directors.   When I asked if she meant
a bit like Diego Rivera murals, the best analogy I could think of to what
she might be referring to, she affirmed that could be a good analogy.
Though it is not as complex or great as those murals.

I don't feel the need to see it again.   But the two main characters are
both sympathetic, and it is worth seeing once at least, to see what one
director has managed to do and has not managed to do.

It may be one of a very few films to feature the Nahua language so
extensively.

Lloyd Anderson
Ecological Linguistics
PO Box 15156
Washington DC 20003
ecoling at aol.com
202-547-7683



**************************************
See AOL's top rated recipes 
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Wed Dec 12 03:10:54 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:10:54 -0800
Subject: DVD "The Other Conquest"
In-Reply-To: <c86.1fdef335.349015be@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.DEC.2007.191054.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

I also got it from Amazon and had never heard it before.  I viewed it  
with the subtitles off, since I'd like to learn to "hear" nahuatl as I  
begin to learn it.  I find myself envying my friends who buy CDs of  
different languages and pop them into the player on their car.  They  
don't utilize them well!  As a fully bilingual person with smatterings  
of three other languages; there's a way to use them to get the best  
use out of them!  I want those CDs in Nahuatl.
I wish I had a script of the movie so I could listen to the nahuatl  
and see the nahuatl (in roman characters, albeit) as they speak.
As for the movie, I've been doing a lot of studying of stuff published  
on Cortés and the aftermath of the destruction of Tenochtitlan and I  
have to say that the historical inaccuracies sort of grabbed me by the  
neck.  In particular, Tecuichpo/Doña Isabel's role in the movie was a- 
historical to the nth degree.  As I remember my studies, her rape by  
Cortes happened in his house while Malina was still present; she was  
never an interpreter for him, by that time he spoke that language well  
enough and he used her as a prize for his upper class followers (three  
of them, I believe?)  The scene where she embraces her unborn child  
and tells HC that it is "her" child certainly doesn't square with the  
known facts... she bore the babe, refused to see it, and in her will  
that was the only child of her body never mentioned.
Cortés "giving" her the name of "Doña Isabel" in the middle of what  
was essentially a trial is ridiculous.  The naming thing happened  
during baptism.
Still, it's better than a lot of films I've seen trying to depict the  
amerind.  I couldn't bring myself to watch "Apocalypto."  THe reviews  
on the religious implications bothered me.
The "easy" interpretation of christian theology was wrong as well.   
Many of the concepts did not exist in nahuatl (grace? salvation? etc)  
and it was many years before the indio population had grown up with  
those concepts that they could be talked of easily.

On Dec 11, 2007, at 8:33 AM, ECOLING at aol.com wrote:

> From its reputation, I was much looking forward to seeing this film,
> made in Mexico, released in only a few cities of the Southwestern USA.
>
> It is in Spanish and in Nahua, with English subtitles and some
> Spanish subtitles also during Nahua portions.
>
> I had heard it presents the conquest from the point of view of an  
> Aztec
> priest,
> maneuvering simultaneously to keep his own people in their traditions,
> and to deal with the Spanish.
>
> I got a copy from Amazon.com, and took it to the Wayeb meetings
> of the European Mayanists, the first week of December in Geneva.
> We had a showing of the film there.
>
> There is a bit of what I had understood the film to be by reputation.
> But it is more a study of the psychology of one Friar and one Aztec  
> priest
> who is a captive in a monastery, supposedly being converted, but  
> explicit
> that the new religion can have his body, never his soul.
> Not much on the Aztec priest or the Nahua people as active agents
> successfully manipulating the Spanish within the limits of the kinds  
> of
> power they had available to them.
> No large and complex issues of social structure, no large scenes,
> not much about the management of daily lives.
>
> The film I had imagined still remains to be made, it is still a  
> distant goal.
> The audience for the showing in Geneva seemed to feel that
> "The Other Conquest" still has quite a lot of stereotyping.
>
> One Mexican woman commented that it was like other films made by
> Mexican directors.   When I asked if she meant
> a bit like Diego Rivera murals, the best analogy I could think of to  
> what
> she might be referring to, she affirmed that could be a good analogy.
> Though it is not as complex or great as those murals.
>
> I don't feel the need to see it again.   But the two main characters  
> are
> both sympathetic, and it is worth seeing once at least, to see what  
> one
> director has managed to do and has not managed to do.
>
> It may be one of a very few films to feature the Nahua language so
> extensively.
>
> Lloyd Anderson
> Ecological Linguistics
> PO Box 15156
> Washington DC 20003
> ecoling at aol.com
> 202-547-7683
>
>
>
> **************************************
> See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID 0030000000004 
> ) _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Mon Dec 17 15:38:14 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:38:14 -0500
Subject: Offner
Message-ID: <MON.17.DEC.2007.103814.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

This is a request that Jerome Offner contact me offline.  I believe that 
he is a subscriber.  If not, I'd appreciate his e-mail address.

-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From sylvia at famsi.org  Fri Dec 28 22:11:04 2007
From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:11:04 -0500
Subject: Research from: Nakum, Palmarejo Valley, Guatemalan Highlands,
 Chinikiha, Xuenkal, Ciudad de Mexico
Message-ID: <FRI.28.DEC.2007.171104.0500.>

Hello Listeros,

New grantee final reports at FAMSI website:

The Nakum Archaeological Project: Investigations on the 
Banks of the Holmul River, Guatemala (2006)
by Jaroslaw Zralka.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06022/index.html

Determining the Chronological Significance of an Ulua-style 
Marble Vase from Northwest Honduras (2007)
by E. Christian Wells.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/07015/index.html

Documentation of Colonial K'ichee' Dictionaries and Grammars (2006)
by Frauke Sachse.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06009/index.html


Informes en Espanol:

Produccion, intercambio y consumo de lozas vidriadas en Nueva Espana:
Conformacion de una base de datos de composiciones elementales 
mediante INAA (2006)
por Patricia Fournier y M. James Blackman.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06014es/index.html

Proyecto Arqueologico Chinikiha, Temporada 2006, Informe de Actividades
por Rodrigo Liendo Stuardo.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06007es/index.html

Investigaciones Regionales en el Centro de Comercio de Xuenkal 
en la Provincia Cupul: Proyecto Arqueologico Xuenkal (2005)
por Traci Ardren.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05064es/index.html


To view the most recent group of manuscripts added to our
Mesoamerican Language Texts Digitization Project:
http://www.famsi.org/new.htm


Best wishes for a Happy New Year,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html
http://www.famsi.org/spanish/


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From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Dec  1 01:03:23 2007
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:03:23 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.200323.0500.KARTTU@NANTUCKET.NET>

The use of the word Nahuatl as a language name and the term Nahuah as  
an ethnic term have been mined out of old sources, but I am not sure  
they were much used in precontact time.

Nahuatlahtolli 'clear, intelligible speech' was contrasted with  
popoloca 'to speak gibberish.' so the Mesoamerican world could be  
divided into "us" and "them" in terms of "people whose language is  
mutually intelligible with ours" and "people whose language is  
unintelligible."

That's different from Mexihcatl/Mexihcah, Acolhuah/Acolhuahqueh, etc.

Fran

_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From oenthomas at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 15:41:14 2007
From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 09:41:14 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <98495BD4-6571-420F-A7C0-8A07A5F4AFE2@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2007.094114.0600.OENTHOMAS@GMAIL.COM>

Frances and listeros,

Your Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl is an excellent source for entering
into study of the variations of theme on a sound. I recommend it to any who
has interest in 'NAHUA-TL. There are many more words very similar in your
dictionary., such as 'NAHUALIZ-TLI', translated by you as 'sorcery'.

I find this very curious in conjunction with the popular books by Carlos
Castaneda that concentrate on the mysterious figure of a Mexican magician
called  'the nagual'.  Is htere anyone who has researched the history of
various uses in this family of sounds?

On Nov 30, 2007 7:03 PM, Frances Karttunen <karttu at nantucket.net> wrote:

> The use of the word Nahuatl as a language name and the term Nahuah as
> an ethnic term have been mined out of old sources, but I am not sure
> they were much used in precontact time.
>
> Nahuatlahtolli 'clear, intelligible speech' was contrasted with
> popoloca 'to speak gibberish.' so the Mesoamerican world could be
> divided into "us" and "them" in terms of "people whose language is
> mutually intelligible with ours" and "people whose language is
> unintelligible."
>
> That's different from Mexihcatl/Mexihcah, Acolhuah/Acolhuahqueh, etc.
>
> Fran
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



-- 
We are connected

Owen
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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Sat Dec  1 21:41:08 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:41:08 -0800
Subject: Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0712010741o6ce316b8wdc9421e5233a7c3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2007.134108.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

> I find this very curious in conjunction with the popular books by  
> Carlos Castaneda that concentrate on the mysterious figure of a  
> Mexican magician called  'the nagual'.  Is htere anyone who has  
> researched the history of various uses in this family of sounds?
I've always wondered about Nahualli - sorcerer.  It seemed to my  
uneducated guess to mean that sorcery and language were similar.  Or  
rather, that one altered the world by using words.  Given how  
important the Mexica found the whole concept of words, communication  
and written words, this makes sense to me.
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From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Dec  1 22:21:59 2007
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 17:21:59 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0712010741o6ce316b8wdc9421e5233a7c3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2007.172159.0500.KARTTU@NANTUCKET.NET>

On Dec 1, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Owen Thomas wrote:

> Frances and listeros,
>
> Your Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl is an excellent source for  
> entering into study of the variations of theme on a sound. I  
> recommend it to any who has interest in 'NAHUA-TL. There are many  
> more words very similar in your dictionary., such as 'NAHUALIZ- 
> TLI', translated by you as 'sorcery'.
>
> I find this very curious in conjunction with the popular books by  
> Carlos Castaneda that concentrate on the mysterious figure of a  
> Mexican magician called  'the nagual'.  Is htere anyone who has  
> researched the history of various uses in this family of sounds?
>


I have never been sure whether the na:hual- stem having to do with  
sorcery and stealth is derived from the same source as the na:hua-  
stem of adjacency, audibility, clarity of sound (na:huac, na:huati,  
na:huatl).

Fran
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From david_becraft at hotmail.com  Sun Dec  2 22:34:09 2007
From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 14:34:09 -0800
Subject: Nahua
In-Reply-To: <000001c8338e$5f41cea0$6701a8c0@CINDYDELLPC>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.DEC.2007.143409.0800.DAVIDBECRAFT@HOTMAIL.COM>







Hi Cindy,
 
Depending on where you are at, "Nahuas" refer to themselves as /macehualli/ --> /macehualtin/.  
 
pancho
 
From: cindy at grito-poetry.comTo: nahuatl at lists.famsi.orgDate: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:19:54 -0800Subject: [Nahuat-l] Nahua




Hello, all:
 
I was wondering if the Nahuas referred to themselves as ?Nahua? or just as individual tribes (e.g., Mexica, Acolhua, etc.).  Does the term ?Nahua? originate from the fact that the tribes in the central valley of Mexico all spoke Nahuatl?  Does the word ?Nahua? mean anything in Nahuatl?
 
Thank you,
Cindy WG
 
 
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From david_becraft at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  3 02:51:29 2007
From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:51:29 -0800
Subject: Nahua
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0712021455r11442e14kb34131e9ab1744b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.DEC.2007.185129.0800.DAVIDBECRAFT@HOTMAIL.COM>


I am referring to the Nahuatl that I used to hear in Puerto Vallarta, Xal; they were mostly from Guerrero
 
pancho


Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 15:55:09 -0700From: oenthomas at gmail.comTo: david_becraft at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Nahuat-l] NahuaCC: cindy at grito-poetry.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.orgPancho,I am at San Miguel de AllendeGTO, Mx.Where are you at? do the people there have an active conversation in some of the current dialects of Nahuatl? Which dialect?
On Dec 2, 2007 3:34 PM, David Becraft < david_becraft at hotmail.com> wrote:




Hi Cindy, Depending on where you are at, "Nahuas" refer to themselves as /macehualli/ --> /macehualtin/.   pancho From: cindy at grito-poetry.comTo: nahuatl at lists.famsi.orgDate: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:19:54 -0800 Subject: [Nahuat-l] Nahua 




Hello, all:
 
I was wondering if the Nahuas referred to themselves as "Nahua" or just as individual tribes (e.g., Mexica, Acolhua, etc.).  Does the term "Nahua' originate from the fact that the tribes in the central valley of Mexico all spoke Nahuatl?  Does the word "Nahua" mean anything in Nahuatl? 
 
Thank you,
Cindy WG
 
 

Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Connect now!_______________________________________________Nahuatl mailing listNahuatl at lists.famsi.orghttp://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl-- We are connectedOwen 
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Thu Dec  6 16:00:11 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:00:11 -0500
Subject: Broken Spears - Broken Bones
Message-ID: <THU.6.DEC.2007.110011.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Colleagues,

The Library of Congress is opening a new permanent exhibit of materials 
dealing with the conquest and colonial period of Latin America.  I has 
served as a consultant, and they asked me to do a translation of two of 
the pieces from Leon Portilla's _Broken Spears_  One is the passage from 
the Anales de Tlatelolco that contains the disputed phrase "broken 
spears" which is in fact "broken bones" ("omitl" not "mitl")  The other 
is from the Cantares mexicanos, an elegy for Tlatelolco.

I offer these for your "pleasure."  These are very difficult passages to 
translate, and I was also forced into casting it into an English that 
would be accessible to the most general audience, so my apologies in 
advance for my poetic license.

----------------
Broken Bones Littered the Road



Thus in our place this happened; we saw it, we will marvel at it.  The 
crying, the pity caused us to suffer exhaustion.

Broken bones littered the road; crushed heads, roofless houses, walls 
were made red with blood.

Worms crawled through noses in the streets; the house walls were 
slippery with brains.

The water was dyed red with blood.  Thus we went along; we drank the 
brackish water.

Still, there an adobe foundation, here a well were protected with a 
shield. 

Still, in vain someone might toast something on a shield. 

We ate tzompantli wood, grass from the salt flats, the adobe bricks, the 
lizards, mice, bits of dust.

Worms were toasted on a shield; there, on the fire the meat was cooked.  
They ate it.


-------
Elegy for Tlatelolco


Only the poetry of mercy was spreading there in Mexico, there in 
Tlatelolco.  Beyond is only the Place of Recognition.

Giver of Life, it is good that you have favored, you have washed our 
faces.  Indeed, we your people will perish.

You have raged and indeed we went in misery, we people.  We saw the 
affliction in the Place of Knowledge.

You dispersed and destroyed your people in Tlatelolco.  Affliction upon 
affliction come fall down in the Place of Revelation, when we were 
weary, we were lazy, oh Giver of Life.

Teardrops fall, crying protection in Tlatelolco.  The Mexican women have 
gone to the lake.  Truly they take leave.  Where do our friends go?

Truly they leave the city, the water-hill, of Mexico.  Smoke rises, fog 
spreads there.  You caused it, oh Giver of Life.

Weep and realize this, oh friends: you have abandoned the Mexican 
people.  The water is bitter and the food is bitter.  The Giver of Life 
made this happen in Tlatelolco.

(c) 2007 J. F. Schwaller for the Library of Congress




-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From ECOLING at aol.com  Tue Dec 11 16:33:02 2007
From: ECOLING at aol.com (Lloyd Anderson)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:33:02 EST
Subject: DVD "The Other Conquest"
Message-ID: <TUE.11.DEC.2007.113302.EST.>

>>From its reputation, I was much looking forward to seeing this film,
made in Mexico, released in only a few cities of the Southwestern USA.

It is in Spanish and in Nahua, with English subtitles and some
Spanish subtitles also during Nahua portions.

I had heard it presents the conquest from the point of view of an Aztec
priest,
maneuvering simultaneously to keep his own people in their traditions,
and to deal with the Spanish.

I got a copy from Amazon.com, and took it to the Wayeb meetings
of the European Mayanists, the first week of December in Geneva.
We had a showing of the film there.

There is a bit of what I had understood the film to be by reputation.
But it is more a study of the psychology of one Friar and one Aztec priest
who is a captive in a monastery, supposedly being converted, but explicit
that the new religion can have his body, never his soul.??
Not much on the Aztec priest or the Nahua people as active agents
successfully manipulating the Spanish within the limits of the kinds of
power they had available to them.
No large and complex issues of social structure, no large scenes,
not much about the management of daily lives.

The film I had imagined still remains to be made, it is still a distant goal.
The audience for the showing in Geneva seemed to feel that
"The Other Conquest" still has quite a lot of stereotyping.??

One Mexican woman commented that it was like other films made by
Mexican directors.?? When I asked if she meant
a bit like Diego Rivera murals, the best analogy I could think of to what
she might be referring to, she affirmed that could be a good analogy.
Though it is not as complex or great as those murals.

I don't feel the need to see it again.?? But the two main characters are
both sympathetic, and it is worth seeing once at least, to see what one
director has managed to do and has not managed to do.

It may be one of a very few films to feature the Nahua language so
extensively.

Lloyd Anderson
Ecological Linguistics
PO Box 15156
Washington DC 20003
ecoling at aol.com
202-547-7683



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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Wed Dec 12 03:10:54 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:10:54 -0800
Subject: DVD "The Other Conquest"
In-Reply-To: <c86.1fdef335.349015be@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.DEC.2007.191054.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

I also got it from Amazon and had never heard it before.  I viewed it  
with the subtitles off, since I'd like to learn to "hear" nahuatl as I  
begin to learn it.  I find myself envying my friends who buy CDs of  
different languages and pop them into the player on their car.  They  
don't utilize them well!  As a fully bilingual person with smatterings  
of three other languages; there's a way to use them to get the best  
use out of them!  I want those CDs in Nahuatl.
I wish I had a script of the movie so I could listen to the nahuatl  
and see the nahuatl (in roman characters, albeit) as they speak.
As for the movie, I've been doing a lot of studying of stuff published  
on Cort?s and the aftermath of the destruction of Tenochtitlan and I  
have to say that the historical inaccuracies sort of grabbed me by the  
neck.  In particular, Tecuichpo/Do?a Isabel's role in the movie was a- 
historical to the nth degree.  As I remember my studies, her rape by  
Cortes happened in his house while Malina was still present; she was  
never an interpreter for him, by that time he spoke that language well  
enough and he used her as a prize for his upper class followers (three  
of them, I believe?)  The scene where she embraces her unborn child  
and tells HC that it is "her" child certainly doesn't square with the  
known facts... she bore the babe, refused to see it, and in her will  
that was the only child of her body never mentioned.
Cort?s "giving" her the name of "Do?a Isabel" in the middle of what  
was essentially a trial is ridiculous.  The naming thing happened  
during baptism.
Still, it's better than a lot of films I've seen trying to depict the  
amerind.  I couldn't bring myself to watch "Apocalypto."  THe reviews  
on the religious implications bothered me.
The "easy" interpretation of christian theology was wrong as well.   
Many of the concepts did not exist in nahuatl (grace? salvation? etc)  
and it was many years before the indio population had grown up with  
those concepts that they could be talked of easily.

On Dec 11, 2007, at 8:33 AM, ECOLING at aol.com wrote:

> From its reputation, I was much looking forward to seeing this film,
> made in Mexico, released in only a few cities of the Southwestern USA.
>
> It is in Spanish and in Nahua, with English subtitles and some
> Spanish subtitles also during Nahua portions.
>
> I had heard it presents the conquest from the point of view of an  
> Aztec
> priest,
> maneuvering simultaneously to keep his own people in their traditions,
> and to deal with the Spanish.
>
> I got a copy from Amazon.com, and took it to the Wayeb meetings
> of the European Mayanists, the first week of December in Geneva.
> We had a showing of the film there.
>
> There is a bit of what I had understood the film to be by reputation.
> But it is more a study of the psychology of one Friar and one Aztec  
> priest
> who is a captive in a monastery, supposedly being converted, but  
> explicit
> that the new religion can have his body, never his soul.
> Not much on the Aztec priest or the Nahua people as active agents
> successfully manipulating the Spanish within the limits of the kinds  
> of
> power they had available to them.
> No large and complex issues of social structure, no large scenes,
> not much about the management of daily lives.
>
> The film I had imagined still remains to be made, it is still a  
> distant goal.
> The audience for the showing in Geneva seemed to feel that
> "The Other Conquest" still has quite a lot of stereotyping.
>
> One Mexican woman commented that it was like other films made by
> Mexican directors.   When I asked if she meant
> a bit like Diego Rivera murals, the best analogy I could think of to  
> what
> she might be referring to, she affirmed that could be a good analogy.
> Though it is not as complex or great as those murals.
>
> I don't feel the need to see it again.   But the two main characters  
> are
> both sympathetic, and it is worth seeing once at least, to see what  
> one
> director has managed to do and has not managed to do.
>
> It may be one of a very few films to feature the Nahua language so
> extensively.
>
> Lloyd Anderson
> Ecological Linguistics
> PO Box 15156
> Washington DC 20003
> ecoling at aol.com
> 202-547-7683
>
>
>
> **************************************
> See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID?0030000000004 
> ) _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Mon Dec 17 15:38:14 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:38:14 -0500
Subject: Offner
Message-ID: <MON.17.DEC.2007.103814.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

This is a request that Jerome Offner contact me offline.  I believe that 
he is a subscriber.  If not, I'd appreciate his e-mail address.

-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From sylvia at famsi.org  Fri Dec 28 22:11:04 2007
From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:11:04 -0500
Subject: Research from: Nakum, Palmarejo Valley, Guatemalan Highlands,
 Chinikiha, Xuenkal, Ciudad de Mexico
Message-ID: <FRI.28.DEC.2007.171104.0500.>

Hello Listeros,

New grantee final reports at FAMSI website:

The Nakum Archaeological Project: Investigations on the 
Banks of the Holmul River, Guatemala (2006)
by Jaroslaw Zralka.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06022/index.html

Determining the Chronological Significance of an Ulua-style 
Marble Vase from Northwest Honduras (2007)
by E. Christian Wells.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/07015/index.html

Documentation of Colonial K'ichee' Dictionaries and Grammars (2006)
by Frauke Sachse.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06009/index.html


Informes en Espanol:

Produccion, intercambio y consumo de lozas vidriadas en Nueva Espana:
Conformacion de una base de datos de composiciones elementales 
mediante INAA (2006)
por Patricia Fournier y M. James Blackman.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06014es/index.html

Proyecto Arqueologico Chinikiha, Temporada 2006, Informe de Actividades
por Rodrigo Liendo Stuardo.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06007es/index.html

Investigaciones Regionales en el Centro de Comercio de Xuenkal 
en la Provincia Cupul: Proyecto Arqueologico Xuenkal (2005)
por Traci Ardren.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05064es/index.html


To view the most recent group of manuscripts added to our
Mesoamerican Language Texts Digitization Project:
http://www.famsi.org/new.htm


Best wishes for a Happy New Year,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html
http://www.famsi.org/spanish/


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