From sylvia at famsi.org Fri Feb 2 22:51:36 2007 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:51:36 -0500 Subject: Reports/Informes--Chontalpa Highlands, Cacaulapa Valley, Palenque Message-ID: Mesoamericanists, New grantee research reports at FAMSI website include: The Chontalpa Historical Archaeology Project, Oaxaca (2005) by Danny Zborover. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05038/index.html Rural Production in Northwest Honduras: The 2004 Season of the Lower Cacaulapa Valley Archaeological Project (2004) by Patricia A. Urban. http://www.famsi.org/reports/03030/index.html Informe de investigacion de concesionario en Español: La Ceramica de Palenque: Informe de Actividades, Primera Fase, Informe Preliminar (2003) por Maria Elena San Roman Martin. http://www.famsi.org/reports/02048es/index.html Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivist Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From sylvia at famsi.org Mon Feb 5 18:20:53 2007 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:20:53 -0500 Subject: Mesoamerican Three-Dimensional Imaging Project Message-ID: Hello Listeros, The Mesoamerican Three-Dimensional Imaging Project establishes an expandable database of Mesoamerican artifacts. The initial purpose of the archive is to record and document a wide variety of sculpted objects, preserve the data for the foreseeable future, and make these data easily accessible to researchers. Through a fusion of state-of-the-art "High Definition Archaeological Documentation and Survey" that includes three-dimensional laser scanning, geomatic (spatially reference) data, digitizing systems and processing, and high-resolution digital photography, accurate renderings of these objects will be available for a diversity of applications. The coordinators, Travis Doering and Lori Collins, have received a FAMSI grant for scanning monuments from Kaminaljuyu, Guatemala. Mesoamerican Three-Dimensional Imaging Project: http://research.famsi.org/3D_imaging/index.php Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kent at kentgibson.com Mon Feb 5 21:18:44 2007 From: kent at kentgibson.com (Kent Gibson) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:18:44 -0800 Subject: Nahuatl Message-ID: Dr. John Schwaller recommended I contact you. I am looking for someone to translate the following words in Nahuatl: 1. (Very short - Nahuatl words that could be repeated over and over in a chant.) 2. Sacrifice to the gods... Release your spirit .... The ceremonial knife! 3. Let it be so! 4. Tenouac, we welcome your rebirth of blue fire! 5. The scepter of Tenouac commands you! 6. Attack! 7. Arise! 8. Now go! 9. Conquer for Greatness! 10. You will be my bride! 11. Sacrifice your blood to the Gods. 12. KILL IT! 13. Nothing! This is for a movie called ³Mil Mascaras vs the Aztec Mummy². Thank you very much. Kent Gibson -- Kent Gibson kent at kentgibson.com Soundesign 3251 Oakley Drive Los Angeles, CA 90068 Office 323-845-9300 Cell 213-300-0400 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Thu Feb 8 08:58:35 2007 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 03:58:35 EST Subject: Phraselator- HIgh Tech Tool for Language Teaching Message-ID: Dear Listeros, I read this account of the use of this language tool talked about in issue 881 of the Digest for IndigenousNewsNetwork at topica.com and wondered immediately whether it might be used in the teaching of Nahautl, or if maybe it has already been used. Any opinions? Tlazo'camati, Henry Vasquez Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:56:25 +0000 From: andre cramblit Subject: Phraselator (language) info at ndnlanguage.com, 818.406.3555 www.ndnlanguage.com American and Canadian Indian tribes using the most advanced tools and methods to save their languages and culture Banning, CA. (December 7th, 2006) - Over 47 tribes and tribal organizations are now using a protected US Department of Defense technology to put the beautiful sound of their language back into the homes of tribal members. Many American and Canadian Indian languages were lost from the 1930s to the 1970s, when generations of Indians were sent to U.S. and Canadian Government boarding schools where they were not allowed to speak their native languages. Native students of that era who spoke their language were severely punished. "My mother was part of that boarding school era where Indian kids were made to be ashamed to be Indian," said Cherokee businessman, Don Thornton. Now Thornton uses the handheld Phraselator, a U.S. Government translation technology to help revitalize the native languages that were decimated during that era. The revolutionary Phraselator® P2, developed by defense contractor Voxtec International in the aftermath of 9/11, is a handheld unit that allows the user to instantly translate spoken English words and phrases into any Native language." Over $12 million went into product research and development, funded by DARPA, the research group that developed innovative technologies such as GPS, virtual reality and the internet itself. The Phraselator was created to heighten communication in combat zones to save lives on both sides of the conflict. Phraselator® P2 holds tens of thousands of phrases, words, stories and songs in one machine. “You speak preprogrammed English phrases into it and it translates instantly to Native languages. It’s like an entire language program in the palm of your hand," said Thornton. “You don’t need to be a linguist to operate it or program it,” said Thornton, “The system is so simple to use I can teach anyone to use it in ten seconds. We sell tools for the average tribal member who wants to learn their language. There are no contracts to sign and no issues with ownership of the recordings.” Since early 2005, over 45 American Indian tribes have begun recording their languages onto the hi-tech machines. Many are among the last speakers of their languages." “We are working on combining Phraselator with a program of the Total Physical Response”, said Thornton. “It’s a stress-free, classroom-proven method to learn language. It’s a method that produces speakers”. “Language is acoustical”, said Bertha Segal Cook, a world-renowned TPR teacher and lecturer, “When we learn language as a child we hear the sounds many times, then we understand it and we speak.” Thornton Media, Inc., based in Banning, CA (www.ndnlanguage.com) is the only language tool company in the world devoted to Native languages. TMI is nearly sold out on its line of kids language toys. 85 percent of their clients re-order within one year. They have traveled mainly to reservations in California, Oklahoma, Montana, North Carolina, Alaska and Canada to record among the last native speakers of their languages. During their journeys, many heart-warming stories were told. After I played with it I cried. This will help save our language," said Jane Dumas, a Kumeyaay elder from Southern California. "I have been waiting for such a tool all my life. Phraselator® P2 is what I need," said Terry Brokie, a Gros Vente language teacher in Montana. "I would recommend anyone working with languages to get a Phraselator. It could possibly save a language," said Ken Tuffy Helpeson, a Nakota language teacher in Montana. "This is a very interesting tool with tremendous potential. It has the ability to focus on our language and how precise it is," said Keith Weasel Head, from the Kainai Board of Education in Alberta, Canada. Quinton Roman Nose, Director of Education for the Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribe of Oklahoma and a Board Member of the National Indian Education Association calls the revitalization of native languages “a top priority” of NIEA in 2006. Both NIEA and The National Congress of American Indians are sponsoring new legislation to fund native language programs. "It's ironic," said Thornton, "that this tool, created by the US Government may help to save the languages that they attempted to wipe out for generations. With Phraselator® P2 tribes can now have full control over their languages without the help of outsiders. TMI don't own a database of the recordings of any tribe. The only one I own was recorded by my grandma, Lucinda Robbins, a master speaker of Cherokee." For more information, please contact Kara at 818.284.1707 Thornton Media, Inc. Don Thornton (Cherokee) has been referred to by the Native American Times as Indian Country’s “hi-tech guru”. He has worked as a filmmaker in Southern California for 20 years and founded TMI in 1995 to create positive images of American Indians. Thornton is also a former Indian journalist who also worked in social services for many years. He created and ran the cutting-edge American Indian Clubhouse in Los Angeles (from 1993 - 96), an after-school program for Indian kids in LA, which the National Indian Review referred to as a "bright shining light in urban Indian Country." An interest in neuroscience and Cherokee led Thornton to adapt hi-tech language products to Native languages including a line of children’s toys and Indian language cartoons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ardu at loc.gov Fri Feb 9 17:27:14 2007 From: ardu at loc.gov (Arthur Dunkelman) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:27:14 -0500 Subject: Kislak Fellowship in American Studies at the Library of Congress Message-ID: Kislak Fellowship in American Studies at the Library of Congress Deadline: February 28, 2007 Research related to the discovery, contact, and colonial periods in Florida, the Caribbean, and Mesoamerica using the Jay Kislak Collection 20 Open to scholars worldwide 20 Stipend: $4,000 per month (no more than eight months) 20 Further information: John W. Kluge Center phone: (202) 707-3302 fax: (202) 707-3595 email: scholarly at loc.gov 20 The Library of Congress' Kluge Center invites qualified scholars to apply for a post-doctoral fellowship for advanced research based on the Kislak Collection. The Kislak Collection is a major collection of rare books, manuscripts, historic documents, maps and art of the Americas donated to the Library of Congress by the Jay I. Kislak Foundation of Miami Lakes, Fla. The collection contains some of the earliest records of indigenous peoples in North America and superb objects from the discovery, contact, and colonial periods, especially for Florida, the Caribbean, and Mesoamerica. The Kislak Fellows Program supports scholarly research that contributes significantly to a greater understanding of the cultures and history of the Americas. It provides an opportunity for a period of up to 8 months of concentrated use of materials from the Kislak Collection and other collections of the Library of Congress, through full-time residency at the Library. The program supports research projects in the disciplines of archaeology, history, cartography, epigraphy, linguistics, ethno-history, ethnography, bibliography and sociology, with particular emphasis on Florida, the circum-Caribbean region and Mesoamerica. We encourage interdisciplinary projects that combine disciplines in novel and productive ways. For more information about the Kislak Collection, visit: http://www.kislakf oundation.org/collections.html 20 Applicant Eligibility Applicants may be of any nationality and must possess a Ph.D. degree, or equivalent terminal degree, awarded by the application deadline date of February 28 of the year they apply. Tenure & Stipend The Kislak Fellowship in American Studies is for a period of up to 8 months, at a stipend of $4,000 per month, for residential research at the Library of Congress. The Library of Congress will pay stipends monthly by means of electronic transfer to a U.S. bank account. Transportation arrangements, housing, and health care insurance and costs are the responsibility of the Fellow. The Library will provide Fellows with information on housing and can provide Fellows with contacts for commercial providers of health care insurance. The Library is required to ensure that nonresident alien visitors maintain minimum levels of medical insurance, and will provide information about insurers that offer qualifying policies to nonresident aliens. Applications Applicants must submit an application form, a two-page curriculum vitae which should indicate prior scholarship, a one-paragraph projects summary, a bibliography of basic sources, a research proposal of no more than 1,500 words, and three letters of reference (in English) from people who have read the research proposal. Successful proposals will clearly indicate the purpose and principal scholarly contribution of the project, and the benefit to the project of working in the Library of Congress using both the Kislak materials and the Library's other collections. Due Date The annual application deadline is February 28, with the fellowship commencing anytime after June 15 of that same year. Application materials must be post-marked by the deadline date to be considered. Applicants are urged to consider submitting their application materials online http://www. loc.gov/loc/kluge or by fax (202-707-3595) to avoid any problems caused by mail delivery. Expectations The Kislak Fellow is expected to develop research of a publishable quality. As a Library of Congress resident scholar, fellows are also expected to make at least one public presentation about their research and to participate actively in Library events and programs as appropriate. Contact Information Completed application packets, questions, and other requests for informatio n should be sent to the following address. Please note that containing mail delivery problems at the Library may require submitting the applicatio n packet by fax or email, to insure delivery by the deadline date: The Kislak Fellowship in American Studies Library of Congress, LJ-120 101 Independence Avenue, SE Washington, DC 20540-4860 tel. 202 707-3302; fax 202 707-3595 email: scholarly at loc.gov 20 For an application and additional information on Kluge Center fellowships, see: www.loc.gov/loc/kluge 20 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sat Feb 10 18:23:24 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:23:24 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Curso de Nhuatl clsico para principiantes I] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Curso de Náhuatl clásico para principiantes I From: "H-MEXICO" Date: Sat, February 10, 2007 10:00 am To: "Grupo sobre historia de México" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mayores informes: cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx ............... Curso de Náhuatl clásico para principiantes I. Objetivo: Que los participantes estén en condición de entablar conversaciones breves en lengua náhuatl y que tengan la posibilidad de leer textos sencillos. Organiza la Fundación Cultural Ollin Atl A.C., ubicada en Tonalá #99 col. Roma. Imparte: Ignacio Silva Cruz, nahuahablante de Milpa Alta, Distrito Federal y con estudios de licenciatura en historia por la Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México. Tiene una duración de seis meses y un costo de $4,800.00 pesos, pagaderos en una sola exhibición o en parcialidades de $800.00 pesos. Días del curso: Lunes y miércoles de 17:00 hrs. a 19:00 hrs. Inicio: Lunes 05 de marzo de 2007. Fin: Miércoles 29 de agosto de 2007. Contacto: cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx Mayores informes: 044 55 1458 8669 -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Feb 11 14:25:52 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:25:52 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mr. Gibson: Did you get answers to your questions? Michael McCafferty Quoting Kent Gibson : > Dr. John Schwaller recommended I contact you. > > I am looking for someone to translate the following words in Nahuatl: > > 1. (Very short - Nahuatl words that could be repeated over and over in a > chant.) > > 2. Sacrifice to the gods... Release your spirit .... The ceremonial knife! > > 3. Let it be so! > > 4. Tenouac, we welcome your rebirth of blue fire! > > 5. The scepter of Tenouac commands you! > > 6. Attack! > > 7. Arise! > > 8. Now go! > > 9. Conquer for Greatness! > > 10. You will be my bride! > > 11. Sacrifice your blood to the Gods. > > 12. KILL IT! > > 13. Nothing! > > This is for a movie called ³Mil Mascaras vs the Aztec Mummy². > > Thank you very much. > > Kent Gibson > > -- > Kent Gibson > kent at kentgibson.com > Soundesign > 3251 Oakley Drive > Los Angeles, CA 90068 > Office 323-845-9300 Cell 213-300-0400 > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Feb 16 20:12:52 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:12:52 -0500 Subject: DVD dictionary of Nahuatl glyphs Message-ID: Editarán en DVD diccionarios pictográficos sobre el náhuatl. El proyecto Amoxpouhque (Lectores de Códices), del Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia (INAH), editará en este 2007, en formato DVD, la serie de diccionarios pictográficos que ha elaborado hasta el momento. Asimismo reunirá la paleografía (estudio de la escritura y signos) de otros documentos en náhuatl resguardados en la Biblioteca Nacional de Francia y un gran diccionario de esta lengua. Notimex, Mundo Hispano de KSL, 8 de febrero http://www.munhispano.com/?nid%5&sid‡6693 John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Feb 16 20:56:39 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:56:39 -0500 Subject: URL for DVD article Message-ID: I apologize, but some how the URL for the web page I posted becomes corrupted when it is managed by the list software. Again here it is: http://www.munhispano.com/?nid=255&sid=876693 that is www.munhispano.com/?nid=255&sid=876693 a question mark appears between the / and the nid, then an equal sign = follows that an ampersand & appears between the 255 and the sid, and an equal sign follows the sid It seems that the two equal signs are being corrupted John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Mon Feb 19 04:36:16 2007 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:36:16 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Message-ID: I've been gone from Mexico for too many years. Today I'm watching TV, "The Dresden Files" and the protagonist says that flaying makes him think of "shepee-totic" and I realized I pronounced it "He-pe ToTec." Probably because that's what I'd do pronouncing Ximena. So would the Tenochca have said she-pee or He-pe? ¡Gracias! ¿Que, por cierto, cual es la lengua de preferencia en la lista? Kier _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mixcoatl at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 05:22:51 2007 From: mixcoatl at gmail.com (Geoff Davis) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:22:51 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: <50628AE8-A479-4D86-B94D-B56FF51D56A3@ipinc.net> Message-ID: On 2/18/07, Kier Salmon wrote: > So would the Tenochca have said she-pee or He-pe? SHEE-peh TOH-tehk in English notation. In ASCII-IPA its closer to /"Si pe "to tek/, where S is English SH. -Geoff _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Feb 19 05:37:55 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:37:55 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: <50628AE8-A479-4D86-B94D-B56FF51D56A3@ipinc.net> Message-ID: Kier, Since the Spaniards wrote Nahuatl words in the only orthography that they had (i.e., Spanish), when they wrote a sequence like "xipe...", the "x" represented what it did in the Spanish of the 1520s -- the sound of present-day English "sh". In Spanish, that sound has changed (migrated) to the sound of the present jota, but it has not done that in Nahuatl. And since present-day Spanish has no "sh" sound anymore, it is natural that older names like "Ximena" and "Xavier" are now pronounced "Jimena" and "Javier". But on the other hand, since placenames like "Xochimilco" are recognized for their Nahuatl origens, they are not pronounced "Jochimilco"; their "sh" origen hangs on -- with the absence of a "sh" in Spanish resulting in most people saying "sochimilco", fairly close to the historically correct "shochimilco". And the maintenance of the spelling "x" as jota (an orthographic archaism) is another subtopic -- "Mexico" and "Oaxaca" represent a kind of national loyalty to the past. --Let "those other people" write "Mejico" if they want to. |8-) Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juan at papaqui.com Mon Feb 19 18:56:29 2007 From: juan at papaqui.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ing._Juan_Manuel_Chavarr=EDa?=) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:56:29 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: <20070219003755.x1obl6i0owwowwkg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: La "x" es de pronunciacion dificil en la Ciudad de Mexico, ya que a veces suena como "s" (Xochimilco, Xochitl), como "sh" (Xola, Mixiuhca), o como "j" (Mexico, Mixcoac) -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Campbell, R Joe Sent: Domingo, 18 de Febrero de 2007 11:38 p.m. To: Kier Salmon Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Pronunciation Kier, Since the Spaniards wrote Nahuatl words in the only orthography that they had (i.e., Spanish), when they wrote a sequence like "xipe...", the "x" represented what it did in the Spanish of the 1520s -- the sound of present-day English "sh". In Spanish, that sound has changed (migrated) to the sound of the present jota, but it has not done that in Nahuatl. And since present-day Spanish has no "sh" sound anymore, it is natural that older names like "Ximena" and "Xavier" are now pronounced "Jimena" and "Javier". But on the other hand, since placenames like "Xochimilco" are recognized for their Nahuatl origens, they are not pronounced "Jochimilco"; their "sh" origen hangs on -- with the absence of a "sh" in Spanish resulting in most people saying "sochimilco", fairly close to the historically correct "shochimilco". And the maintenance of the spelling "x" as jota (an orthographic archaism) is another subtopic -- "Mexico" and "Oaxaca" represent a kind of national loyalty to the past. --Let "those other people" write "Mejico" if they want to. |8-) Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lingoman at mac.com Tue Feb 20 18:51:37 2007 From: lingoman at mac.com (Doug Barr) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:51:37 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Questions Message-ID: Hello, all - I was so good and saved all my grammar questions until my copy of "Introduction to Classical Nahuatl" showed up, but now I have some pronunciation questions which Andrews doesn't answer (and in one case, raises). 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like *ipampa* would do the same? 2. Secondary stress, especially in compound words: does stress simply proceed back every second syllable from the penultimate, or does the normally stressed syllable of each component other than the last receive secondary stress? For example, "nixochitemoa," "I seek flowers." Would that be - using capital letters for stressed syllables - NIxoChIteMOa with regular alternation of stressed and unstressed syllables, or niXOchiteMOa, putting secondary stress on the XO of XOchi(tl) as would be done if it were an independent word? I'm guessing the latter, since he says that there is a point of 'internal open transition' - i.e. slight but audible pause - between the constituents of a compound, which is sometimes recognized in the traditional spelling, but confirmation or denial would be helpful... 3. Andrews says, "a ([voiceless n]) phone resulting from this change (of -m at the end of a word to voiceless n) reverts to the original / m/ sound when the following vocable of the stress group begins with a vowel. For example, *in i:i:xpan* is pronounced ([phonetic transcription of *im i:i:xpan*]) and in some texts is written *im i:i:xpan*." OK, so is 'in' always pronounced as 'im' before words beginning with a vowel, or at least words it's linked to? Why then the classical transcription *ini:n* rather than *imi:n*, etc.? Confused... Tlazohcamati! _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Feb 20 21:28:53 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:28:53 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Doug, I don`t know anything about number 2. And I don't understand number 3. The example seems to suggest that he is saying that all word final -n's were originally -m's. That doesn't sound right. On number 1. In Huastecan Nahuatl, at least, syllable final -l's are devoiced. Here is a fun example. In Older Central Nahuatl you have elnamiqui, niqu, "to remember s.t." In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl you would have ilnamiqui, but since the -l is devoiced, it then assimilates the following -n and produces a double devoiced l. So you get illamiqui, nic. Then you can add the tla- non-specific non-human object which bumps out the weak initial i- of the verb, giving tlallamiqui, ni. "to be intelligent". But, last of all, the initial tl- also becomes a devoiced l, so you get lallamiqui, ni. "to be intelligent". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx  On Feb 20, 2007, at 12:51 PM, Doug Barr wrote: > Hello, all - > > I was so good and saved all my grammar questions until my copy of > "Introduction to Classical Nahuatl" showed up, but now I have some > pronunciation questions which Andrews doesn't answer (and in one > case, raises). > > 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of > syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a > statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound > like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this > common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like > *ipampa* would do the same? > > 2. Secondary stress, especially in compound words: does stress simply > proceed back every second syllable from the penultimate, or does the > normally stressed syllable of each component other than the last > receive secondary stress? For example, "nixochitemoa," "I seek > flowers." Would that be - using capital letters for stressed > syllables - NIxoChIteMOa with regular alternation of stressed and > unstressed syllables, or niXOchiteMOa, putting secondary stress on > the XO of XOchi(tl) as would be done if it were an independent word? > I'm guessing the latter, since he says that there is a point of > 'internal open transition' - i.e. slight but audible pause - between > the constituents of a compound, which is sometimes recognized in the > traditional spelling, but confirmation or denial would be helpful... > > 3. Andrews says, "a ([voiceless n]) phone resulting from this change > (of -m at the end of a word to voiceless n) reverts to the original / > m/ sound when the following vocable of the stress group begins with a > vowel. For example, *in i:i:xpan* is pronounced ([phonetic > transcription of *im i:i:xpan*]) and in some texts is written *im > i:i:xpan*." OK, so is 'in' always pronounced as 'im' before words > beginning with a vowel, or at least words it's linked to? Why then > the classical transcription *ini:n* rather than *imi:n*, etc.? > Confused... > > Tlazohcamati! > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Feb 21 13:42:58 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:42:58 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Doug Barr : > Hello, all - > > > 2. Secondary stress, especially in compound words: does stress simply > proceed back every second syllable from the penultimate, or does the > normally stressed syllable of each component other than the last > receive secondary stress? For example, "nixochitemoa," "I seek > flowers." Would that be - using capital letters for stressed > syllables - NIxoChIteMOa with regular alternation of stressed and > unstressed syllables, or niXOchiteMOa, putting secondary stress on > the XO of XOchi(tl) as would be done if it were an independent word? > I'm guessing the latter, since he says that there is a point of > 'internal open transition' - i.e. slight but audible pause - between > the constituents of a compound, which is sometimes recognized in the > traditional spelling, but confirmation or denial would be helpful... I have troulbe making perfect sense of much of Andrews, but "nixochitemoa" would be niXOchiteMOa but: tictlazohtla TICtlaZOHtla quilnamiqui QUILnaMIqui nimitzilnamiquiz NImitzILnaMIqui Hmmmm...I'm sure Joe or Fran will have the answer. It looks like even-numbered syllables starting from the end, except with embeds, such as we see above with xochitl. Michael I'm not sure of the rule, but if you want to toss me other examples, I can tell you where the "stress" falls. :-) _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Feb 21 13:43:54 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:43:54 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: WICKED! Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Hi Doug, > I don`t know anything about number 2. And I don't understand number > 3. The example seems to suggest that he is saying that all word final > -n's were originally -m's. That doesn't sound right. > On number 1. In Huastecan Nahuatl, at least, syllable final -l's are > devoiced. Here is a fun example. In Older Central Nahuatl you have > elnamiqui, niqu, "to remember s.t." In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl you > would have ilnamiqui, but since the -l is devoiced, it then > assimilates the following -n and produces a double devoiced l. So you > get illamiqui, nic. Then you can add the tla- non-specific non-human > object which bumps out the weak initial i- of the verb, giving > tlallamiqui, ni. "to be intelligent". But, last of all, the initial > tl- also becomes a devoiced l, so you get lallamiqui, ni. "to be > intelligent". > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > ? > > > On Feb 20, 2007, at 12:51 PM, Doug Barr wrote: > >> Hello, all - >> >> I was so good and saved all my grammar questions until my copy of >> "Introduction to Classical Nahuatl" showed up, but now I have some >> pronunciation questions which Andrews doesn't answer (and in one >> case, raises). >> >> 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of >> syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a >> statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound >> like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this >> common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like >> *ipampa* would do the same? >> >> 2. Secondary stress, especially in compound words: does stress simply >> proceed back every second syllable from the penultimate, or does the >> normally stressed syllable of each component other than the last >> receive secondary stress? For example, "nixochitemoa," "I seek >> flowers." Would that be - using capital letters for stressed >> syllables - NIxoChIteMOa with regular alternation of stressed and >> unstressed syllables, or niXOchiteMOa, putting secondary stress on >> the XO of XOchi(tl) as would be done if it were an independent word? >> I'm guessing the latter, since he says that there is a point of >> 'internal open transition' - i.e. slight but audible pause - between >> the constituents of a compound, which is sometimes recognized in the >> traditional spelling, but confirmation or denial would be helpful... >> >> 3. Andrews says, "a ([voiceless n]) phone resulting from this change >> (of -m at the end of a word to voiceless n) reverts to the original / >> m/ sound when the following vocable of the stress group begins with a >> vowel. For example, *in i:i:xpan* is pronounced ([phonetic >> transcription of *im i:i:xpan*]) and in some texts is written *im >> i:i:xpan*." OK, so is 'in' always pronounced as 'im' before words >> beginning with a vowel, or at least words it's linked to? Why then >> the classical transcription *ini:n* rather than *imi:n*, etc.? >> Confused... >> >> Tlazohcamati! >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Feb 21 18:04:09 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:04:09 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions Message-ID: Doug, Put me down as one of the people on Nahuat-l who appreciates your questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us to probe what we know and what we don't know. Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and *voiceless*) when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or vocable is obviously at least partially correct. Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a vowel in the same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position (resulting in [n]) or 2) before a consonant: 1 tlami it ends up otlan it ended up 2 tzontecomatl head tzonteconcocolli headache The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is voiceless. He gives no reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source. This isn't fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without the kind of evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel compelled to -- and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the support is there for Andrews' claim! However, I have searched and reflected at length and I have found no basis for this "devoicing" claim. Further, I have difficulty in imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the limits on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl pronunciation, I doubt it. Also, I know that we are discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but I believe that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the older stages of the language were like. And in spite of having familiarity with a number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final voiceless nasal. (I have to concede that if they existed, they would be relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!) > 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of > syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a > statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound > like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this > common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like > *ipampa* would do the same? Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Wed Feb 21 18:38:04 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:38:04 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: <20070221130409.e5xhent2ck00s8s4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, I'll just add that the only words I've hearn with a voiced final n are monosyllabic. Here are a few: 1. pan (foscilized relational word): voiced final n 2. ipan (the same relational word, with a possessor): devoiced final n 3. huan (fiscilized relational word), voiced final n 4. tlan (if, versus the tla: of Classical), voiced final n 5. tlen (what, that), voiced final n. 6. quen (the comparative "like"): voiced final n. John On Feb 21, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote: > Doug, > > Put me down as one of the people on Nahuat-l who appreciates your > questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us to > probe what we know and what we don't know. > Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and *voiceless*) > when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or vocable is > obviously at > least partially correct. Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a vowel > in the same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position (resulting > in [n]) or 2) before a consonant: > > 1 > tlami it ends up > otlan it ended up > > 2 > tzontecomatl head > tzonteconcocolli headache > > The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is voiceless. He > gives no reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source. > This > isn't fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without > the > kind of evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel compelled > to -- and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the > support > is there for Andrews' claim! > However, I have searched and reflected at length and I have > found no > basis for this "devoicing" claim. Further, I have difficulty in > imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the limits > on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl pronunciation, I doubt > it. Also, I know that we are discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but I > believe that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the older > stages of the language were like. And in spite of having familiarity > with a number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final voiceless > nasal. (I have to concede that if they existed, they would be > relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!) > > >> 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of >> syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a >> statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound >> like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this >> common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like >> *ipampa* would do the same? > > Iztayohmeh, > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Wed Feb 21 18:39:15 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:39:15 -0600 Subject: final n Message-ID: Joe, What have you heard then in these cases? If nican, for example, doesn't end in a voiceless nasal, are you saying that it ends in a non-nasal aspiration? Or have you heard a voiced n in this position? The native speakers I work with can distinguish between the sound of the final n in nican and the final h in oncah. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Wed Feb 21 20:09:24 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:09:24 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: <1172085030.45dc9926e48cb@mail2.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Galen, The devoiced n I'm talking about is an aspiration (without vocal chord vibration) through the mouth and nose which is different from the final h, also breathed through the mouth and nose. I am talking right now with one of the native speakers, and he can definitely feel the difference between the two. The devoiced n has more air going through the nose than the mouth, while the final h has practically all the air going through the mouth. Words like michin and the -tzin suffix end in the devoiced n I am talking about. John On Feb 21, 2007, at 1:10 PM, brokaw at buffalo.edu wrote: > >> >> --Apple-Mail-3-502355871 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset=US-ASCII; >> delsp=yes; >> format=flowed >> >> Joe, >> I'll just add that the only words I've hearn with a voiced final n >> >> are monosyllabic. Here are a few: >> 1. pan (foscilized relational word): voiced final n >> 2. ipan (the same relational word, with a possessor): devoiced final >> n >> 3. huan (fiscilized relational word), voiced final n >> 4. tlan (if, versus the tla: of Classical), voiced final n >> 5. tlen (what, that), voiced final n. >> 6. quen (the comparative "like"): voiced final n. >> John >> >> On Feb 21, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote: >> >>> Doug, >>> >>> Put me down as one of the people on Nahuat-l who appreciates >> your >>> questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us to >>> probe what we know and what we don't know. >>> Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and >> *voiceless*) >>> when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or vocable is >>> obviously at >>> least partially correct. Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a >> vowel >>> in the same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position >> (resulting >>> in [n]) or 2) before a consonant: >>> >>> 1 >>> tlami it ends up >>> otlan it ended up >>> >>> 2 >>> tzontecomatl head >>> tzonteconcocolli headache >>> >>> The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is voiceless. >> He >>> gives no reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source. >> >>> This >>> isn't fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without >> >>> the >>> kind of evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel >> compelled >>> to -- and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the >>> support >>> is there for Andrews' claim! >>> However, I have searched and reflected at length and I have >>> found no >>> basis for this "devoicing" claim. Further, I have difficulty in >>> imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the >> limits >>> on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl pronunciation, I >> doubt >>> it. Also, I know that we are discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but >> I >>> believe that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the >> older >>> stages of the language were like. And in spite of having >> familiarity >>> with a number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final >> voiceless >>> nasal. (I have to concede that if they existed, they would be >>> relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!) >>> >>> >>>> 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of >>>> syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a >>>> statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would >> sound >>>> like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is >> this >>>> common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like >>>> *ipampa* would do the same? >>> >>> Iztayohmeh, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> >> --Apple-Mail-3-502355871 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Content-Type: text/html; >> charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> > = >> -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Joe,
> class=3D"Apple-style-span">> style=3D"white-space:pre"> I'll just add that the only words >> = >> I've hearn with a voiced final n are monosyllabic. Here are a >> = >> few:
1. pan >> = >> (foscilized relational word): voiced final = >> n
2. = >> ipan (the same relational word, with a possessor): devoiced >> final = >> n
3. huan >> = >> (> normal;">fiscilized relational word), voiced final = >> n
> class=3D"Apple-style-span">> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal;">4. tlan (if, >> = >> versus the tla:> style=3D"font-style: normal;"> of Classical), voiced final = >> n
5. tlen (what, that), voiced >> final = >> n.
> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal;">6. = >> quen> normal;"> (the comparative "like"): voiced final = >> n.
John
> class=3D"Apple-style-span">> style=3D"font-style: normal;">
On Feb 21, >> 2007, = >> at 12:04 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote:

> class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">Doug,
> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: >> = >> 14px; ">
> = >> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 Put me down as one of >> the = >> people on Nahuat-l who appreciates your> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> ">questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us = >> to=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">probe what we know and what we don't >> know.
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">=A0=A0 = >> Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and = >> *voiceless*)> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or >> = >> vocable is obviously at> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">least >> = >> partially correct.=A0 = >> Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a vowel> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in >> the = >> same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position (resulting> = >> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in >> [n]) = >> or 2) before a consonant:
> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: >> = >> 14px; ">
> = >> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 1
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">=A0 =A0 = >> tlami =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >> =A0 =A0= >> it ends up
> = >> 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 otlan> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 it >> = >> ended up
> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; >> ">
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">=A0 = >> 2
> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 tzontecomatl> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 =A0 head
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">=A0 =A0 = >> tzonteconcocolli=A0 = >> headache
> 0px; = >> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; >> ">
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">=A0=A0 = >> The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is = >> voiceless.=A0 He> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">gives >> no = >> reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source.> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 This> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">isn't >> = >> fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without >> the> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">kind >> of = >> evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel compelled> = >> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to -- >> = >> and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the >> support> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">is >> there = >> for Andrews' claim!
> = >> 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 However, I have >> searched = >> and reflected at length and I have found no> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">basis >> = >> for this "devoicing" claim.=A0 >> = >> Further, I have difficulty in> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> ">imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the = >> limits=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl = >> pronunciation, I doubt> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; >> ">it.> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 Also, I know that we are >> = >> discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but I> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; >> ">believe = >> that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the older> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; >> ">stages = >> of the language were like.=A0 >> = >> And in spite of having familiarity> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with >> a = >> number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final voiceless> = >> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> ">nasal.=A0 (I have to >> = >> concede that if they existed, they would be> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> ">relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!)
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; ">
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> min-height: 14px; ">
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced >> at = >> the end of
> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">syllables, but not about 'l'. >> = >> I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a
> 0px; = >> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">statement >> = >> that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound
> = >> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced >> lateral = >> fricative. Is this
> = >> 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">common? And I assume 'm' >> at = >> the end of syllables in words like
> 0px; = >> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">*ipampa* >> = >> would do the same?
> = >> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: >> = >> 14px; ">
> = >> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Iztayohmeh,
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; ">
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> ">Joe
> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; >> ">
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; = >> ">_______________________________________________
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= >> >> --Apple-Mail-3-502355871-- >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx Wed Feb 21 20:28:31 2007 From: silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx (silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:28:31 -0600 Subject: Ofrezco servicios. Message-ID: Hola a todos, Mi nombre es Ignacio Silva, nahuahablante de Milpa Alta y con estudios de Historia en la Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico. Estudia en el Seminario de Cultura Nahuatl que dirige Miguel Leon-Portilla. Ha trabajado en el Archivo General de la Nacion en la digitalizacion de documentos en lengua nahuatl del fondo documental Tierras. Se encuenta trabajando en la traduccion de documentos en nahuatl con Librado Silva Galeana. Ofrezco mis servicios para buscar documentacion en lengua nahuatl aqui en Mexico en el Archivo General de la Nacion; tambien para la traduccion de documentos en nahuatl. Poseo una base de datos de documentos en nahuatl del AGN, Mexico; esa base de datos posee los registros de mas de seiscientos documentos en nahuatl, en algunos casos esos documentos tienen imagenes: ofrezco la venta de las imagenes digitalizadas, las cuales puedo enviar por correo. A los interesados en contratar mis servicios me pongo a su disposicion en el siguiente correo electronico: silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Wed Feb 21 21:41:12 2007 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:41:12 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: <20070221084258.yl4zet53ocg0cgsg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Michael McCafferty wrote: | Quoting Doug Barr : | | > Hello, all - | > | > > 2. Secondary stress, especially in compound words: does stress simply | > proceed back every second syllable from the penultimate, or does the | > normally stressed syllable of each component other than the last | > receive secondary stress? For example, "nixochitemoa," "I seek | > flowers." Would that be - using capital letters for stressed | > syllables - Wait! I prefer to use *uppercase* letters to mark syllables whose quantities are long, rather than syllables bearing primary or secondary stress. Words in Nawatl take on different senses depending on whether they have long or short vowels. The same thing can't be said of words whose sole differences are the locations of their syllabic stress. For that reason, it is far more important to dwell on the matter of vocalic length than syllabic stress. | > NIxoChIteMOa with regular alternation of stressed and unstressed | > syllables, or niXOchiteMOa, putting secondary stress on the XO | > of XOchi(tl) as would be done if it were an independent word? Similarly, how are we to distinguish a prefix from a preposition, and count one as an integral part of a word, and the other an infix? If you are familiar with modern German (and it helps if you have studied a little Old German), a "separable prefix" is nearly the same thing as a preposition (or even a postposition in certain instances), so it quickly becomes problematical counting these syllables as separate and independent words as opposed to infixes that are separable in the same way that they are found in modern German. | > I'm guessing the latter, since he says that there is a point of | > 'internal open transition' - i.e. slight but audible pause - | > between the constituents of a compound, which is sometimes | > recognized in the traditional spelling, but confirmation or | > denial would be helpful... Say, do you think that this kind of a 'pause' is more along the lines of the caesura in Classical Latin poetry, and would therefore be more a matter of syllabic quantity than syllabic stress? | I have troulbe making perfect sense of much of Andrews, but | "nixochitemoa" would be | | niXOchiteMOa I really think uppercase vowels should be used for long vowels, as opposed to stressed vowels. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 08:22:37 2007 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:22:37 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 39, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many modern dialects turn /n/ into /h/ wordfinally especially after /i/. This has to count as a kind of devoicing. magnus > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Campbell, R Joe" > To: Doug Barr > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:04:09 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Pronunciation Questions > Doug, > > Put me down as one of the people on Nahuat-l who appreciates your > questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us to > probe what we know and what we don't know. > Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and *voiceless*) > when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or vocable is obviously at > least partially correct. Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a vowel > in the same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position (resulting > in [n]) or 2) before a consonant: > > 1 > tlami it ends up > otlan it ended up > > 2 > tzontecomatl head > tzonteconcocolli headache > > The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is voiceless. He > gives no reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source. This > isn't fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without the > kind of evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel compelled > to -- and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the support > is there for Andrews' claim! > However, I have searched and reflected at length and I have found no > basis for this "devoicing" claim. Further, I have difficulty in > imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the limits > on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl pronunciation, I doubt > it. Also, I know that we are discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but I > believe that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the older > stages of the language were like. And in spite of having familiarity > with a number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final voiceless > nasal. (I have to concede that if they existed, they would be > relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!) > > > > 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of > > syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a > > statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound > > like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this > > common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like > > *ipampa* would do the same? > > Iztayohmeh, > > Joe > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Feb 22 14:50:43 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:50:43 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 04:41 PM 2/21/2007, you wrote: >I prefer to use *uppercase* letters to mark syllables whose >quantities are long, rather than syllables bearing primary or >secondary stress. Words in Nawatl take on different senses >depending on whether they have long or short vowels. The >same thing can't be said of words whose sole differences >are the locations of their syllabic stress. > >For that reason, it is far more important to dwell on the matter >of vocalic length than syllabic stress. Two things. 1. You are absolutely correct that vowel length is more important than secondary stress, although with classical texts where vowel length was not noted, we have to do the best we can. 2. The convention that we use here on the list is to place a colon following the long vowel (since many computer mail programs do not allow us to use character sets that include a macron), and use CAPS for stress. Examples: te:-MO-a: [long e, long a, stress on the mo] - to seek something or te-MO:-hua [long o, stress on the mo] - for descent to take place John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Thu Feb 22 21:35:41 2007 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:35:41 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: <20070222144914.838.qmail@hermes.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: | At 04:41 PM 2/21/2007, you wrote: | >I prefer to use *uppercase* letters to mark syllables whose | >quantities are long, rather than syllables bearing primary or | >secondary stress. Words in Nawatl take on different senses | >depending on whether they have long or short vowels. The | >same thing can't be said of words whose sole differences | >are the locations of their syllabic stress. | > | >For that reason, it is far more important to dwell on the matter | >of vocalic length than syllabic stress. | | | Two things. | 1. You are absolutely correct that vowel length is more important | than secondary stress, although with classical texts where vowel | length was not noted, we have to do the best we can. Do you think there was anything similar to the Classical Latin caesura? | 2. The convention that we use here on the list is to place a colon | following the long vowel (since many computer mail programs do not | allow us to use character sets that include a macron), and use |CAPS for stress. | | Examples: | te:-MO-a: [long e, long a, stress on the mo] - to seek something | or | te-MO:-hua [long o, stress on the mo] - for descent to take place Hmmmm. Well. Okay. Still, I think I've seen the colon used for a stop, such as the glottal stop, for instance. I guess I'll have to keep track of your usage so I don't confuse it with anybody else's. Somehow, I'd much rather use an uppercase 'Q' for the glottal stop, if not a colon. But I think the important thing is, you can't go wrong if you just issue a series of spondaic like syllables, and so long as the vowel lengths are right, it ought to have been understandable back in the days of Classical Nawatl. I just don't think syllabic stress is as important as vowel length. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Thu Feb 22 22:37:53 2007 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:37:53 -0800 Subject: Modern Nahuatl Usage from Copalillo Guerrero Message-ID: Por la dignidad de nuestra gente y por el bienestar de un comunidad, la cual crece en su salud espiritual y mental, nos reunimos en esta ocasion. Por años hemos luchado por crear un espacio donde nuestras familias puedan celebrar sus usos y costumbres de forma libre y plenamente, y es ahora nuestra preocupacion que a quienes buscamos para el consuelo, nos niegan nuestro derecho como pueblos a establecer eso que no es innato, y protegido ante la ley, que es el de SER. Acompañenos hermanos en solidaridad con la vida y la justicia. OMETEOTL Ilhuitl Chicuatzen Xihtli ika to Tata Cuahutemoc Xocoyotzi Tijuana Baja CA Mexico En el H. Ayuntamiento de Tijuana Viernes 23 6:00 pm Sabado 24 9:00 am Febrero 2007 info. TATA CUAXTLE (562) 695-7173 en Ens (646) 155 5510 Tahameh tihc neque on nican tihc chanehqueh mahc tex tlacaitan noche tequihuhaqueh on nican tequechihuah quechicah hueye Mexico. On ihc tex tlacatiticahn tlamachiliztle, tla nemiliztle, yahac tihc nequeh mahc quitlacaitacan tequihuahqueah mahc ca tlacaitacan tlin ihc textohc yohllo pilcatica. Nochipa tich tequipanohtoqueh ihcon panotihue xihtin ihuan ixqueman tex maca tequihuqueh tlinonon toch altepechanhuan quipia ahmatle. Tihc neque tihctequipanozqueh queh tohc huelohcan tohc lohlahuan ohc tex chaliltihtiahqueh. In hueye tequihuah quinequeh tex quiztiliz in achitzi tlatlaltzi tlin tahanech yohc ticualtequipanohtiahqueh camah matlahtle xihtle ipan municipio de Ensenada Baja California. Ihc toca colonia Popular 89. Nochi tohc nihuah tequihnotza mahc tihc quin tla oquican in tequihuahtlayecantzin ipan Estado de Baja California Tlazocamate Noch nihuan Recuerden que esta Ceremonia no es exclusiva para danzantes mexicas, sino para todos los mexicanos que queremos preservar nuestras raices, indentidad y cultura en Amor, fuerza y Unidad, Calpulli Chicahuac Ollin _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Feb 23 02:51:02 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:51:02 -0500 Subject: final n In-Reply-To: <986F5AE3-28FE-4CC6-822E-E0ABAE6099C9@mac.com> Message-ID: John, Your questions have sent me back to listening to field recordings to assure myself of what I 1) thought I 2) remembered hearing (in some cases, not a few years ago). But I have now realized that it may take me weeks, so I wanted to get back to you with some thoughts (although based on stale memories). In the speech of someone from San Agustin Oapa, Guerrero, where you can frequently anticipate that people are "n droppers" just by hearing their Spanish (i.e., my friend says "ellos toca"), I hear no trace of nasality in the final vowel. In fact, the final vowels of much of highland Mexican Spanish trail off in voicing (visible in a sound spectrogram), matching the description of what an [h] is and is perceived by people not accustomed to Mexican Spanish as actually *being* an [h], which for people from /s/ aspirating dialects can be perceived as being intended as an /s/. As I said, I don't hear a voiceless nasal as the result of what I am calling "nasal dropping". Some years ago, I recorded some Tarascan speech. The Tarascan voiceless nasals practically jump off the tape at you (I was going to say "literally", but we overuse that enough already), so there is no doubt in my mind or ear what a *voiceless nasal* sounds like. I would like to separate some of the issues in our cracker barrel discussion, so I'll continue in a separate message. Iztayohmeh, Joe Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Joe, > What have you heard then in these cases? If nican, for example, > doesn't end in a voiceless nasal, are you saying that it ends in a > non-nasal aspiration? Or have you heard a voiced n in this position? > The native speakers I work with can distinguish between the sound of > the final n in nican and the final h in oncah. > John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Feb 23 05:22:38 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:22:38 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions Message-ID: John, I have a few comments on some details that you described below -- I rearranged your text to relate two points that you made. > The devoiced n I'm talking about is an aspiration (without vocal > chord vibration) through the mouth and nose which is different from > the final h, also breathed through the mouth and nose. -------- > The devoiced n has more air going > through the nose than the mouth, while the final h has practically > all the air going through the mouth. *********** If the devoiced n has more air going through the nose than the mouth, it must be because the buccal passageway is nearly blocked (or totally blocked) by the tip of tongue at the alveolar ridge (or the teeth). Sounds that have at least some degree of obstruction in the air flow through the mouth are classified as consonants, so this sounds like a voiceless nasal consonant. And, of course, the velum is lowered, opening the passageway to the nasal cavity. If the final h has practically all the air going through mouth, then the velum is "practically" raised, closing the passageway to the nasal cavity. And h's are like vowels, having open, unobstructed air flow through the mouth. Is this an accurate characterization of the facts? ******************** > I am talking right now with one of the native speakers, > and he can definitely feel > the difference between the two. ******************** I don't want to wave a red flag at you about using the judgement of native speakers about pronunciation, but I have a few comments on the danger in it. 1. In one of my early linguistics classes, my professor, Henry R. Kahane, a famous Romance philologist who had soaked up the principles of American Structuralism, was trying to make the point that you *had* to take the data that the native speaker presented you with. In his marked German accent (University of Berlin Ph.D), he glared at us and pointed his finger and said: "Zee native speaker iss always right" And then he smiled slyly and said: "Zat iss rule number one. Rule number two iss: 'Never turn your back on zee native speaker." Then he explained that linguistic analysis really was about real linguistic behavior, *not* about our possibly puristic preconceptions (the alliteration is free) about what the speaker meant to say. But rule number two simply reminded us that the native speaker is not a trained phonetician, nor does he have access to the intricacies of syntactic analysis. Further, he has prejudices that are not part of the data. This is not to say that those very prejudices are not interesting to the analyst and worthy of explanation. ...but they are not phonetic data. 2. In the 1930's, Edward Sapir published his famous article, "The Psychological Reality of Phonemes", in which he described an incident with his "native interpreter" of Southern Paiute, Tony. When Tony was asked to write a particular word, he demonstrated that he believed that he was pronouncing something other than what he actually pronounced. 3. In 1970-71, a speaker of the Hueyapan, Morelos, dialect of Nahuatl spent the academic year in Bloomington to help me as co-teacher and informant in teaching Indiana University's first course in Nahuatl. We worked in my office several hours a week, as well as presenting the material in class three times a week. After a month of work, I said to her apologetically that I realized that I didn't write Nahuatl in the traditional way that it appeared in some many documents, but was she familiar enough with my k's and w's and ts's for her to write some words down? She said "Quemah" (or at the time, actually, "kemah"). So I said "lo oigo" and she wrote "nikagi". We did several more words (with Sapir smiling over my shoulder the whole time) and then I said "mujer" -- she wrote "sobatl"!! She had been pronouncing each of the words as we proceeded and this time I expressed mild surprise, saying that I just didn't hear it that well. (She had clearly said "soatl".) She repeated it over and over and I kept expressing my inability to hear anything between the "o" and the "a". Finally, she leaned over the desk and said "ssssooooo aaatl". I soon realized that although there was no [b] in her pronunciation, there was certainly reason for her to believe that there *was*. Here are the relevant data from Hueyapan (in a 'phonetic' looking transcription): wetsi he falls nivetsi I fall oets he fell The facts are straightforward: 1. /w/ is the initial phoneme in the stem meaning "fall". 2. /w/ becomes [v] intervocally (i.e. between vowels); [v] is written as either "v" or "b" in the language of literacy of Hueyapan (i.e., Spanish). 3. /w/ deletes when immediately followed by /o/. Thus, when a speaker of Nahuatl from Hueyapan either says or hears a sequence of /o/ followed by another vowel, it is perfectly reasonable for them to intuit and *strongly believe* that there is a /w/, which they believe is realized as [v] immediately after the /o/. Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Feb 23 13:40:41 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:40:41 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The current convention for the glottal stop is to use the letter -h- Others use the question mark -?- The use of the -h- conforms to what we call the modified Franciscan-Jesuit system. The only drawback is that for beginners in the language they think all -h- occurrences are glottal stops, and we use the -h- in various digraphs: -hu- for the "w" sound, and of course -ch- At 04:35 PM 2/22/2007, Matthew Montchalin wrote: >| 2. The convention that we use here on the list is to place a colon >| following the long vowel (since many computer mail programs do not >| allow us to use character sets that include a macron), and use >|CAPS for stress. >| >| Examples: >| te:-MO-a: [long e, long a, stress on the mo] - to seek something >| or >| te-MO:-hua [long o, stress on the mo] - for descent to take place > >Hmmmm. Well. Okay. Still, I think I've seen the colon used for a >stop, such as the glottal stop, for instance. I guess I'll have to >keep track of your usage so I don't confuse it with anybody else's. >Somehow, I'd much rather use an uppercase 'Q' for the glottal stop, >if not a colon. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Fri Feb 23 15:01:18 2007 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:01:18 +0000 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: <20070223002238.0d6bxzh2as4owcs4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Someone wrote:- > 2. The convention that we use here on the list is to place a colon > following the long vowel (since many computer mail programs do not > allow us to use character sets that include a macron), and use >CAPS for stress. > > Examples: > te:-MO-a: [long e, long a, stress on the mo] - to seek something > or > te-MO:-hua [long o, stress on the mo] - for descent to take place > At 04:35 PM 2/22/2007, Matthew Montchalin wrote: >Hmmmm. Well. Okay. Still, I think I've seen the colon used for a >stop, such as the glottal stop, for instance. I guess I'll have to >keep track of your usage so I don't confuse it with anybody else's. >Somehow, I'd much rather use an uppercase 'Q' for the glottal stop, >if not a colon. "John F. Schwaller" wrote:- > The current convention for the glottal stop is to use the letter > -h- Others use the question mark -?- The use of the -h- conforms to > what we call the modified Franciscan-Jesuit system. The only > drawback is that for beginners in the language they think all -h- > occurrences are glottal stops, and we use the -h- in various > digraphs: -hu- for the "w" sound, and of course -ch- Using uppercase Q for glottal stop would look strange and make the text look like Klingon. Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Fri Feb 23 16:06:07 2007 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:06:07 -0500 Subject: final n In-Reply-To: <20070222215102.lpipnif080k4cwcg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, Oapan does have some interesting things going on with final /n/ and vowel-final words. In phrase-final position word-final /n/ is often a light aspiration that to me seems indistinguishable from final /h/. Thus xo:tlan 'it wasn't finished' is indistinguisable from xo:tlah 'they get red hot'. This is not the case with all speakers, though. Some speakers might have final /n/ going to a velarized /n/, as occurs in some neighboring villages. These seem to be the older speakers. Others have neither the aspiration nor the velarized nasal, but simply a final vowel. However, unlike the case with "real" vowel-final phrases in which there is a phrase-final glottal stop, in these cases there is simply a final vowel. Within a phrase I have noticed that word-final /n/ deletes before a vowel-initial word. Thus i:pan asi 's/he arrives there to where s/he is' is pronounced as [i:pa asi] (actually with the Oapan pitch accent, [i:pá así]) On the other hand, there is often an /n/ inserted when a word-final vowel is followed by a consonant-initial word. Thus kiteki xo:chitl is sometimes realized as [kitekin xo:chitl] (with the introduced /n/ slightly velarized) This is confusing as some speakers also realize word-final phrase-internal /h/ as /n/, thus kitekih xo:chitl is realized also as [kitekin xo:chitl]. The major difference between singular and plural is the prosody, therefore [kiteki xó:chitl] or [kitekin xó:chitl] he cuts flowers (the accent indicates phrasal intonation) [kitéki xó:chitl] or [kitékin xó:chitl] they cut flowers best, jda Quoting "Campbell, R Joe" : > John, > > Your questions have sent me back to listening to field recordings to > assure myself of what I 1) thought I 2) remembered hearing (in some > cases, not a few > years ago). But I have now realized that it may take me weeks, so I > wanted to get back to you with some thoughts (although based on stale > memories). > > In the speech of someone from San Agustin Oapa, Guerrero, where you > can frequently anticipate that people are "n droppers" just by hearing > their Spanish (i.e., my friend says "ellos toca"), I hear no trace of > nasality in the final vowel. In fact, the final vowels of much of > highland Mexican Spanish trail off in voicing (visible in a sound > spectrogram), matching the description of what an [h] is and is > perceived by people not accustomed to Mexican Spanish as actually > *being* an [h], which for people from /s/ aspirating dialects can be > perceived as being intended as an /s/. > > As I said, I don't hear a voiceless nasal as the result of what I am > calling "nasal dropping". Some years ago, I recorded some Tarascan > speech. The Tarascan voiceless nasals practically jump off the tape at > you (I was going to say "literally", but we overuse that enough > already), so there is no doubt in my mind or ear what a *voiceless > nasal* sounds like. > > I would like to separate some of the issues in our cracker barrel > discussion, so I'll continue in a separate message. > > Iztayohmeh, > > Joe > > > Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > >> Joe, >> What have you heard then in these cases? If nican, for example, >> doesn't end in a voiceless nasal, are you saying that it ends in a >> non-nasal aspiration? Or have you heard a voiced n in this position? >> The native speakers I work with can distinguish between the sound of >> the final n in nican and the final h in oncah. >> John > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Feb 24 04:00:35 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:00:35 -0500 Subject: final n In-Reply-To: <20070223110607.8q4uvtu2qgc8g0c8@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan, I read and re-read your message several times today in the midst of listening to Oapan (and other) field recordings. I am definitely listening with different ears as a result of your comments and John's originally focussing our attention on what happens to nasals (mainly in word-final position). I have repeatedly said (and possibly once to you) that Oapan is the most difficult dialect of Nahuatl that I have encountered -- and I didn't really begin to penetrate some problems until I read your explanation about some things, one being the stress shift related to the loss of /h/. All the best, Joe Quoting jonathan.amith at yale.edu: > Joe, > > Oapan does have some interesting things going on with final /n/ and > vowel-final > words. > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Feb 28 16:10:28 2007 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:10:28 +0100 Subject: "internal silence" Message-ID: I looked up "silencio" in the Molina dictionary and found "necahualiztli", and then looked up this word in Frances' dictionary but could not find it. I wanted to translate "internal silence" (meaning someone's) so I gathered I could say "teitic necahualiztli"?? Would this be all right? May I take the opportunity to also ask what is the Nahuatl word for the flower "rose"? - Molina says "tlapalpopoco" but I cannot understand what is the role of smoke here! Thank you a lot. Susana Moraleda _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Wed Feb 28 17:54:08 2007 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:54:08 +0000 Subject: rose flower In-Reply-To: <001901c75b53$1e7d9bb0$69882597@mexico> Message-ID: --- Susana Moraleda wrote: > May I take the opportunity to also ask what is the Nahuatl word for > the flower "rose"? - Molina says "tlapalpopoco" but I cannot > understand what is the role of smoke here! > Thank you a lot. Susana Moraleda Karttunen's dictionary lists these words:- - [popo_tl] (plural -meh) = "plant used to make brooms; broom, straw / escoba" - [tlapal-li]= "dye, color" (must have an owner?) But "at the colored broom-like plant" would be [tlapalpopo_c]. Were roses native to Mexico? Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Feb 28 21:52:01 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:52:01 -0500 Subject: "internal silence" In-Reply-To: <001901c75b53$1e7d9bb0$69882597@mexico> Message-ID: Susana, First, I think that we should clear away the smoke. While "poc-" is involved in 'smoke' (i.e., "poctli" and "poca"), Molina's entries in both 1555 and 1571 (Spanish-Nahuatl) have "castillan tlapalpopozo" (where my 'z' represents 'c cedilla'). Now the question is: what is the role of the "...popozo"? Mary and I have searched at length and in sneaky ways to identify it, but no xabon. There is a "poya:hui" which (if it could lose its last *2* syllables could change y > x and then x > z), but no verbs in -ya:hui do that. ... and "poya:hui" is connected with color. We included a list of Molina's words involving "rosa" below. Iztayohmeh, Joe and Mary * rosa ** castillan tlapalpopozo. rosa flor y mata conocida. 55m 217v castillan tlapalpopozo. rosa flor,y mata conocida. 71m1-105v2 castillan xochitl. flor o rosa de castilla. 55m-125r castillan xochitl. flor o rosa de castilla. 71m1-63v1 cueponcayotl. flor o rosa generalmente. 71m1-63v1 cueponi, ni- dar estallido el hueuo, o la casta¤a quando la asan, o abrirse y abrotar la flor, o la rosa, o resplandecer alguna cosa. 71m2-26r2 moloni. heruir o espessarse las nuues, esparzirse la suauidad del olor dela rosa o del yncienso o esparzirse las plumas menudas. 71m1-71r1 rosa. flor o rosa de castilla. 55m-125r rosa. flor o rosa de castilla. 71m1-63v1 xiuhatlapalli. hoja de rosa o flor. 71m1 71v2 xochi atlapalli. hoja de rosa o de flor. 71m2-161v2 xochiatlapalli. hoja de rosa o flor. 55m 141r xochiatlapalli. hoja de rosa, o flor. 71m2 160r1 xochiocuilin. gusano de rosa. 55m-134v xochiocuilin. gusano de rosa. 71m1-67v2 xochitl. flor o rosa generalmente. 71m1-63v1 xochitl. flor o rosa. 71m2-161v2 xochitl. rosa, o flor. 71m2-160r2 xochizhuatl. hoja de rosa o flor. 55m-141r xochizhuatl. hoja de rosa o flor. 71m1-71v2 xochizhuatl. hoja de rosa. 71m2-160r2 xochizhuatl. hoja de flor, o rosa. 71m2-162r1 * rosada ** paatl. agua rosada, vnguento suaue, o cosa semejante para recrear el cuerpo. 71m2-78v1 rosasneuctli. miel rosada. 55m-171r rosasneuctli. miel rosada. 71m1-84v2 xochatl. agua rosada. 55m-10v xochatl. agua rosada. 71m1-6r1 xochatl. agua rosada. 71m2-160r1 xochatl. agua rosada. 71m2-161v2 xochiatl. agua rosada. 55m-10v xochiatl. agua rosada. 71m1-6r1 xochiatl. agua rosada. 71m2-160r1 xochiatl. agua rosada. 71m2-161v2 xochio neuctli. miel rosada. 55m-171r xochio neuctli. miel rosada. 71m1-84v2 xochio neuctli. miel rosada. 71m2-161v2 xochipaltic. cosa ruuia assi, o rosada. 71m2-161v2 * rosado ** iztalehualli, tla- color encarnado o rosado. 71m2-146v2 iztalehualtic, tla- color encarnado o rosado. 71m2-146v2 iztalehualtic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 55m-217v iztalehualtic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 71m1-105v2 palpoyactic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 55m-217v palpoyactic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 71m1-105v2 rosasazeite. azeite rosado. 71m1-18r2 tlapalpoyactic. color rosado o naranjado. 71m2-130v2 xochiazeite. azeite rosado. 71m1-18r2 xochipaltia, ni- tornarse de color rosado. 71m2-161v2 xochiyo. rosado de materia de rosas. 55m-217v xochiyo. rosado de materia de rosas. 71m1-105v2 * rosal ** xochioa. brotar o florecer el rosal. 71m2 161v2 xochiotia, mo- florecer o echar rosas el rosal. 71m2-061r2 xochitequi, ni- coger flores, o rosas del rosal. 71m2-160r2 xochitequi, ni- coger flores o rosas del rosal. 71m2-161v2 * rosas ** cecencatohuiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 55m-144v cecencatohuiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 71m1-73r2 cecencatohuiliztli, ne- juego de rosas como con pelota. 71m2-064r2 cecencatolhui, mo- el que juega con rosas como con pelota. 71m2-57v2 cecencatolhuia, nino- iugar con rosas. 55m-145r cecencatolhuia, nino- iugar con rosas. 71m1-73r2 cecentelhuia, nino- iugar con rosas. 55m-145r cecentelhuia, nino- iugar con rosas. 71m1-73r2 cecentelhuiani, mo- el que juega con rosas como con pelota. 71m2-57v2 cecentelhuiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 55m-144v cecentelhuiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 71m1-73r2 icpacxochichihua, n- corona de rosas hazer. 71m1-30v1 icpacxochitl. corona de rosas o guirnalda. 71m1-30v1 iztalehualtic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 55m-217v iztalehualtic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 71m1-105v2 palpoyactic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 55m-217v palpoyactic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 71m1-105v2 quechcotonaliztli, tla- el acto de coger o cortar espigas de trigo, rosas o frutas con la mano. 71m2-133v2 tapayollalaza, ni- jugar ala pelota o con rosas. 71m2-91r1 tlaxochicuiya, nitla- emboluer algo con faxa, o faxar, o emboluer y adornar algo con guirnaldas de rosas y flores. 71m2-146v2 tlaxochtecuiya, nitla- emboluer algo con faxa, o faxar, o emboluer y adornar algo con guirnaldas de rosas y flores. 71m2-146v2 xochichihua, ni- hazer ramillote o manojo de rosas o flores. 71m2-161v2 xochiotia, mo- florecer o echar rosas el rosal. 71m2-061r2 xochitequi, ni- coger flores, o rosas del rosal. 71m2-160r2 xochitequi, ni- coger flores o rosas del rosal. 71m2-161v2 xochiyo. rosado de materia de rosas. 55m-217v xochiyo. rosado de materia de rosas. 71m1-105v2 xochiyotia, nitla- poner rosas o flores en alguna cosa para adornarla. 71m1-97r2 xochiyotia, nitla- rosas poner enalguna cosa o enrosar algo. 71m1-105v2 xoxochitlaxili, mo- el que juega con rosas echando las en alto y recogendolas. 71m2-061r2 xoxochitlaxilia, nino- iugar con rosas. 55m-145r xoxochitlaxilia, nino- iugar con rosas. 71m1-73r2 xoxochitlaxilia, nino- jugar con rosas. 71m2-161v1 xoxochitlaxiliani, mo- el que juega con rosas echando las en alto y recogendolas. 71m2-061r2 xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 55m-144v xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 71m1-73r2 xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne- juego de rosas como con pelota. 71m2-71v1 > May I take the opportunity to also ask what is the Nahuatl word for the > flower "rose"? - Molina says "tlapalpopoco" but I cannot understand what is > the role of smoke here! > > Thank you a lot. > > Susana Moraleda > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From sylvia at famsi.org Fri Feb 2 22:51:36 2007 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:51:36 -0500 Subject: Reports/Informes--Chontalpa Highlands, Cacaulapa Valley, Palenque Message-ID: Mesoamericanists, New grantee research reports at FAMSI website include: The Chontalpa Historical Archaeology Project, Oaxaca (2005) by Danny Zborover. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05038/index.html Rural Production in Northwest Honduras: The 2004 Season of the Lower Cacaulapa Valley Archaeological Project (2004) by Patricia A. Urban. http://www.famsi.org/reports/03030/index.html Informe de investigacion de concesionario en Espa?ol: La Ceramica de Palenque: Informe de Actividades, Primera Fase, Informe Preliminar (2003) por Maria Elena San Roman Martin. http://www.famsi.org/reports/02048es/index.html Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivist Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From sylvia at famsi.org Mon Feb 5 18:20:53 2007 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:20:53 -0500 Subject: Mesoamerican Three-Dimensional Imaging Project Message-ID: Hello Listeros, The Mesoamerican Three-Dimensional Imaging Project establishes an expandable database of Mesoamerican artifacts. The initial purpose of the archive is to record and document a wide variety of sculpted objects, preserve the data for the foreseeable future, and make these data easily accessible to researchers. Through a fusion of state-of-the-art "High Definition Archaeological Documentation and Survey" that includes three-dimensional laser scanning, geomatic (spatially reference) data, digitizing systems and processing, and high-resolution digital photography, accurate renderings of these objects will be available for a diversity of applications. The coordinators, Travis Doering and Lori Collins, have received a FAMSI grant for scanning monuments from Kaminaljuyu, Guatemala. Mesoamerican Three-Dimensional Imaging Project: http://research.famsi.org/3D_imaging/index.php Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kent at kentgibson.com Mon Feb 5 21:18:44 2007 From: kent at kentgibson.com (Kent Gibson) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:18:44 -0800 Subject: Nahuatl Message-ID: Dr. John Schwaller recommended I contact you. I am looking for someone to translate the following words in Nahuatl: 1. (Very short - Nahuatl words that could be repeated over and over in a chant.) 2. Sacrifice to the gods... Release your spirit .... The ceremonial knife! 3. Let it be so! 4. Tenouac, we welcome your rebirth of blue fire! 5. The scepter of Tenouac commands you! 6. Attack! 7. Arise! 8. Now go! 9. Conquer for Greatness! 10. You will be my bride! 11. Sacrifice your blood to the Gods. 12. KILL IT! 13. Nothing! This is for a movie called ?Mil Mascaras vs the Aztec Mummy?. Thank you very much. Kent Gibson -- Kent Gibson kent at kentgibson.com Soundesign 3251 Oakley Drive Los Angeles, CA 90068 Office 323-845-9300 Cell 213-300-0400 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Thu Feb 8 08:58:35 2007 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 03:58:35 EST Subject: Phraselator- HIgh Tech Tool for Language Teaching Message-ID: Dear Listeros, I read this account of the use of this language tool talked about in issue 881 of the Digest for IndigenousNewsNetwork at topica.com and wondered immediately whether it might be used in the teaching of Nahautl, or if maybe it has already been used. Any opinions? Tlazo'camati, Henry Vasquez Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:56:25 +0000 From: andre cramblit Subject: Phraselator (language) info at ndnlanguage.com, 818.406.3555 www.ndnlanguage.com American and Canadian Indian tribes using the most advanced tools and methods to save their languages and culture Banning, CA. (December 7th, 2006) - Over 47 tribes and tribal organizations are now using a protected US Department of Defense technology to put the beautiful sound of their language back into the homes of tribal members. Many American and Canadian Indian languages were lost from the 1930s to the 1970s, when generations of Indians were sent to U.S. and Canadian Government boarding schools where they were not allowed to speak their native languages. Native students of that era who spoke their language were severely punished. "My mother was part of that boarding school era where Indian kids were made to be ashamed to be Indian," said Cherokee businessman, Don Thornton. Now Thornton uses the handheld Phraselator, a U.S. Government translation technology to help revitalize the native languages that were decimated during that era. The revolutionary Phraselator? P2, developed by defense contractor Voxtec International in the aftermath of 9/11, is a handheld unit that allows the user to instantly translate spoken English words and phrases into any Native language." Over $12 million went into product research and development, funded by DARPA, the research group that developed innovative technologies such as GPS, virtual reality and the internet itself. The Phraselator was created to heighten communication in combat zones to save lives on both sides of the conflict. Phraselator? P2 holds tens of thousands of phrases, words, stories and songs in one machine. ?You speak preprogrammed English phrases into it and it translates instantly to Native languages. It?s like an entire language program in the palm of your hand," said Thornton. ?You don?t need to be a linguist to operate it or program it,? said Thornton, ?The system is so simple to use I can teach anyone to use it in ten seconds. We sell tools for the average tribal member who wants to learn their language. There are no contracts to sign and no issues with ownership of the recordings.? Since early 2005, over 45 American Indian tribes have begun recording their languages onto the hi-tech machines. Many are among the last speakers of their languages." ?We are working on combining Phraselator with a program of the Total Physical Response?, said Thornton. ?It?s a stress-free, classroom-proven method to learn language. It?s a method that produces speakers?. ?Language is acoustical?, said Bertha Segal Cook, a world-renowned TPR teacher and lecturer, ?When we learn language as a child we hear the sounds many times, then we understand it and we speak.? Thornton Media, Inc., based in Banning, CA (www.ndnlanguage.com) is the only language tool company in the world devoted to Native languages. TMI is nearly sold out on its line of kids language toys. 85 percent of their clients re-order within one year. They have traveled mainly to reservations in California, Oklahoma, Montana, North Carolina, Alaska and Canada to record among the last native speakers of their languages. During their journeys, many heart-warming stories were told. After I played with it I cried. This will help save our language," said Jane Dumas, a Kumeyaay elder from Southern California. "I have been waiting for such a tool all my life. Phraselator? P2 is what I need," said Terry Brokie, a Gros Vente language teacher in Montana. "I would recommend anyone working with languages to get a Phraselator. It could possibly save a language," said Ken Tuffy Helpeson, a Nakota language teacher in Montana. "This is a very interesting tool with tremendous potential. It has the ability to focus on our language and how precise it is," said Keith Weasel Head, from the Kainai Board of Education in Alberta, Canada. Quinton Roman Nose, Director of Education for the Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribe of Oklahoma and a Board Member of the National Indian Education Association calls the revitalization of native languages ?a top priority? of NIEA in 2006. Both NIEA and The National Congress of American Indians are sponsoring new legislation to fund native language programs. "It's ironic," said Thornton, "that this tool, created by the US Government may help to save the languages that they attempted to wipe out for generations. With Phraselator? P2 tribes can now have full control over their languages without the help of outsiders. TMI don't own a database of the recordings of any tribe. The only one I own was recorded by my grandma, Lucinda Robbins, a master speaker of Cherokee." For more information, please contact Kara at 818.284.1707 Thornton Media, Inc. Don Thornton (Cherokee) has been referred to by the Native American Times as Indian Country?s ?hi-tech guru?. He has worked as a filmmaker in Southern California for 20 years and founded TMI in 1995 to create positive images of American Indians. Thornton is also a former Indian journalist who also worked in social services for many years. He created and ran the cutting-edge American Indian Clubhouse in Los Angeles (from 1993 - 96), an after-school program for Indian kids in LA, which the National Indian Review referred to as a "bright shining light in urban Indian Country." An interest in neuroscience and Cherokee led Thornton to adapt hi-tech language products to Native languages including a line of children?s toys and Indian language cartoons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ardu at loc.gov Fri Feb 9 17:27:14 2007 From: ardu at loc.gov (Arthur Dunkelman) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:27:14 -0500 Subject: Kislak Fellowship in American Studies at the Library of Congress Message-ID: Kislak Fellowship in American Studies at the Library of Congress Deadline: February 28, 2007 Research related to the discovery, contact, and colonial periods in Florida, the Caribbean, and Mesoamerica using the Jay Kislak Collection 20 Open to scholars worldwide 20 Stipend: $4,000 per month (no more than eight months) 20 Further information: John W. Kluge Center phone: (202) 707-3302 fax: (202) 707-3595 email: scholarly at loc.gov 20 The Library of Congress' Kluge Center invites qualified scholars to apply for a post-doctoral fellowship for advanced research based on the Kislak Collection. The Kislak Collection is a major collection of rare books, manuscripts, historic documents, maps and art of the Americas donated to the Library of Congress by the Jay I. Kislak Foundation of Miami Lakes, Fla. The collection contains some of the earliest records of indigenous peoples in North America and superb objects from the discovery, contact, and colonial periods, especially for Florida, the Caribbean, and Mesoamerica. The Kislak Fellows Program supports scholarly research that contributes significantly to a greater understanding of the cultures and history of the Americas. It provides an opportunity for a period of up to 8 months of concentrated use of materials from the Kislak Collection and other collections of the Library of Congress, through full-time residency at the Library. The program supports research projects in the disciplines of archaeology, history, cartography, epigraphy, linguistics, ethno-history, ethnography, bibliography and sociology, with particular emphasis on Florida, the circum-Caribbean region and Mesoamerica. We encourage interdisciplinary projects that combine disciplines in novel and productive ways. For more information about the Kislak Collection, visit: http://www.kislakf oundation.org/collections.html 20 Applicant Eligibility Applicants may be of any nationality and must possess a Ph.D. degree, or equivalent terminal degree, awarded by the application deadline date of February 28 of the year they apply. Tenure & Stipend The Kislak Fellowship in American Studies is for a period of up to 8 months, at a stipend of $4,000 per month, for residential research at the Library of Congress. The Library of Congress will pay stipends monthly by means of electronic transfer to a U.S. bank account. Transportation arrangements, housing, and health care insurance and costs are the responsibility of the Fellow. The Library will provide Fellows with information on housing and can provide Fellows with contacts for commercial providers of health care insurance. The Library is required to ensure that nonresident alien visitors maintain minimum levels of medical insurance, and will provide information about insurers that offer qualifying policies to nonresident aliens. Applications Applicants must submit an application form, a two-page curriculum vitae which should indicate prior scholarship, a one-paragraph projects summary, a bibliography of basic sources, a research proposal of no more than 1,500 words, and three letters of reference (in English) from people who have read the research proposal. Successful proposals will clearly indicate the purpose and principal scholarly contribution of the project, and the benefit to the project of working in the Library of Congress using both the Kislak materials and the Library's other collections. Due Date The annual application deadline is February 28, with the fellowship commencing anytime after June 15 of that same year. Application materials must be post-marked by the deadline date to be considered. Applicants are urged to consider submitting their application materials online http://www. loc.gov/loc/kluge or by fax (202-707-3595) to avoid any problems caused by mail delivery. Expectations The Kislak Fellow is expected to develop research of a publishable quality. As a Library of Congress resident scholar, fellows are also expected to make at least one public presentation about their research and to participate actively in Library events and programs as appropriate. Contact Information Completed application packets, questions, and other requests for informatio n should be sent to the following address. Please note that containing mail delivery problems at the Library may require submitting the applicatio n packet by fax or email, to insure delivery by the deadline date: The Kislak Fellowship in American Studies Library of Congress, LJ-120 101 Independence Avenue, SE Washington, DC 20540-4860 tel. 202 707-3302; fax 202 707-3595 email: scholarly at loc.gov 20 For an application and additional information on Kluge Center fellowships, see: www.loc.gov/loc/kluge 20 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sat Feb 10 18:23:24 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:23:24 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Curso de Nhuatl clsico para principiantes I] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Curso de N?huatl cl?sico para principiantes I From: "H-MEXICO" Date: Sat, February 10, 2007 10:00 am To: "Grupo sobre historia de M?xico" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mayores informes: cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx ............... Curso de N?huatl cl?sico para principiantes I. Objetivo: Que los participantes est?n en condici?n de entablar conversaciones breves en lengua n?huatl y que tengan la posibilidad de leer textos sencillos. Organiza la Fundaci?n Cultural Ollin Atl A.C., ubicada en Tonal? #99 col. Roma. Imparte: Ignacio Silva Cruz, nahuahablante de Milpa Alta, Distrito Federal y con estudios de licenciatura en historia por la Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico. Tiene una duraci?n de seis meses y un costo de $4,800.00 pesos, pagaderos en una sola exhibici?n o en parcialidades de $800.00 pesos. D?as del curso: Lunes y mi?rcoles de 17:00 hrs. a 19:00 hrs. Inicio: Lunes 05 de marzo de 2007. Fin: Mi?rcoles 29 de agosto de 2007. Contacto: cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx Mayores informes: 044 55 1458 8669 -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Feb 11 14:25:52 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:25:52 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mr. Gibson: Did you get answers to your questions? Michael McCafferty Quoting Kent Gibson : > Dr. John Schwaller recommended I contact you. > > I am looking for someone to translate the following words in Nahuatl: > > 1. (Very short - Nahuatl words that could be repeated over and over in a > chant.) > > 2. Sacrifice to the gods... Release your spirit .... The ceremonial knife! > > 3. Let it be so! > > 4. Tenouac, we welcome your rebirth of blue fire! > > 5. The scepter of Tenouac commands you! > > 6. Attack! > > 7. Arise! > > 8. Now go! > > 9. Conquer for Greatness! > > 10. You will be my bride! > > 11. Sacrifice your blood to the Gods. > > 12. KILL IT! > > 13. Nothing! > > This is for a movie called ?Mil Mascaras vs the Aztec Mummy?. > > Thank you very much. > > Kent Gibson > > -- > Kent Gibson > kent at kentgibson.com > Soundesign > 3251 Oakley Drive > Los Angeles, CA 90068 > Office 323-845-9300 Cell 213-300-0400 > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Feb 16 20:12:52 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:12:52 -0500 Subject: DVD dictionary of Nahuatl glyphs Message-ID: Editar?n en DVD diccionarios pictogr?ficos sobre el n?huatl. El proyecto Amoxpouhque (Lectores de C?dices), del Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia (INAH), editar? en este 2007, en formato DVD, la serie de diccionarios pictogr?ficos que ha elaborado hasta el momento. Asimismo reunir? la paleograf?a (estudio de la escritura y signos) de otros documentos en n?huatl resguardados en la Biblioteca Nacional de Francia y un gran diccionario de esta lengua. Notimex, Mundo Hispano de KSL, 8 de febrero http://www.munhispano.com/?nid%5&sid?6693 John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Feb 16 20:56:39 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:56:39 -0500 Subject: URL for DVD article Message-ID: I apologize, but some how the URL for the web page I posted becomes corrupted when it is managed by the list software. Again here it is: http://www.munhispano.com/?nid=255&sid=876693 that is www.munhispano.com/?nid=255&sid=876693 a question mark appears between the / and the nid, then an equal sign = follows that an ampersand & appears between the 255 and the sid, and an equal sign follows the sid It seems that the two equal signs are being corrupted John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Mon Feb 19 04:36:16 2007 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:36:16 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Message-ID: I've been gone from Mexico for too many years. Today I'm watching TV, "The Dresden Files" and the protagonist says that flaying makes him think of "shepee-totic" and I realized I pronounced it "He-pe ToTec." Probably because that's what I'd do pronouncing Ximena. So would the Tenochca have said she-pee or He-pe? ?Gracias! ?Que, por cierto, cual es la lengua de preferencia en la lista? Kier _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mixcoatl at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 05:22:51 2007 From: mixcoatl at gmail.com (Geoff Davis) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:22:51 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: <50628AE8-A479-4D86-B94D-B56FF51D56A3@ipinc.net> Message-ID: On 2/18/07, Kier Salmon wrote: > So would the Tenochca have said she-pee or He-pe? SHEE-peh TOH-tehk in English notation. In ASCII-IPA its closer to /"Si pe "to tek/, where S is English SH. -Geoff _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Feb 19 05:37:55 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:37:55 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: <50628AE8-A479-4D86-B94D-B56FF51D56A3@ipinc.net> Message-ID: Kier, Since the Spaniards wrote Nahuatl words in the only orthography that they had (i.e., Spanish), when they wrote a sequence like "xipe...", the "x" represented what it did in the Spanish of the 1520s -- the sound of present-day English "sh". In Spanish, that sound has changed (migrated) to the sound of the present jota, but it has not done that in Nahuatl. And since present-day Spanish has no "sh" sound anymore, it is natural that older names like "Ximena" and "Xavier" are now pronounced "Jimena" and "Javier". But on the other hand, since placenames like "Xochimilco" are recognized for their Nahuatl origens, they are not pronounced "Jochimilco"; their "sh" origen hangs on -- with the absence of a "sh" in Spanish resulting in most people saying "sochimilco", fairly close to the historically correct "shochimilco". And the maintenance of the spelling "x" as jota (an orthographic archaism) is another subtopic -- "Mexico" and "Oaxaca" represent a kind of national loyalty to the past. --Let "those other people" write "Mejico" if they want to. |8-) Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juan at papaqui.com Mon Feb 19 18:56:29 2007 From: juan at papaqui.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ing._Juan_Manuel_Chavarr=EDa?=) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:56:29 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: <20070219003755.x1obl6i0owwowwkg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: La "x" es de pronunciacion dificil en la Ciudad de Mexico, ya que a veces suena como "s" (Xochimilco, Xochitl), como "sh" (Xola, Mixiuhca), o como "j" (Mexico, Mixcoac) -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Campbell, R Joe Sent: Domingo, 18 de Febrero de 2007 11:38 p.m. To: Kier Salmon Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Pronunciation Kier, Since the Spaniards wrote Nahuatl words in the only orthography that they had (i.e., Spanish), when they wrote a sequence like "xipe...", the "x" represented what it did in the Spanish of the 1520s -- the sound of present-day English "sh". In Spanish, that sound has changed (migrated) to the sound of the present jota, but it has not done that in Nahuatl. And since present-day Spanish has no "sh" sound anymore, it is natural that older names like "Ximena" and "Xavier" are now pronounced "Jimena" and "Javier". But on the other hand, since placenames like "Xochimilco" are recognized for their Nahuatl origens, they are not pronounced "Jochimilco"; their "sh" origen hangs on -- with the absence of a "sh" in Spanish resulting in most people saying "sochimilco", fairly close to the historically correct "shochimilco". And the maintenance of the spelling "x" as jota (an orthographic archaism) is another subtopic -- "Mexico" and "Oaxaca" represent a kind of national loyalty to the past. --Let "those other people" write "Mejico" if they want to. |8-) Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lingoman at mac.com Tue Feb 20 18:51:37 2007 From: lingoman at mac.com (Doug Barr) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:51:37 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Questions Message-ID: Hello, all - I was so good and saved all my grammar questions until my copy of "Introduction to Classical Nahuatl" showed up, but now I have some pronunciation questions which Andrews doesn't answer (and in one case, raises). 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like *ipampa* would do the same? 2. Secondary stress, especially in compound words: does stress simply proceed back every second syllable from the penultimate, or does the normally stressed syllable of each component other than the last receive secondary stress? For example, "nixochitemoa," "I seek flowers." Would that be - using capital letters for stressed syllables - NIxoChIteMOa with regular alternation of stressed and unstressed syllables, or niXOchiteMOa, putting secondary stress on the XO of XOchi(tl) as would be done if it were an independent word? I'm guessing the latter, since he says that there is a point of 'internal open transition' - i.e. slight but audible pause - between the constituents of a compound, which is sometimes recognized in the traditional spelling, but confirmation or denial would be helpful... 3. Andrews says, "a ([voiceless n]) phone resulting from this change (of -m at the end of a word to voiceless n) reverts to the original / m/ sound when the following vocable of the stress group begins with a vowel. For example, *in i:i:xpan* is pronounced ([phonetic transcription of *im i:i:xpan*]) and in some texts is written *im i:i:xpan*." OK, so is 'in' always pronounced as 'im' before words beginning with a vowel, or at least words it's linked to? Why then the classical transcription *ini:n* rather than *imi:n*, etc.? Confused... Tlazohcamati! _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Feb 20 21:28:53 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:28:53 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Doug, I don`t know anything about number 2. And I don't understand number 3. The example seems to suggest that he is saying that all word final -n's were originally -m's. That doesn't sound right. On number 1. In Huastecan Nahuatl, at least, syllable final -l's are devoiced. Here is a fun example. In Older Central Nahuatl you have elnamiqui, niqu, "to remember s.t." In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl you would have ilnamiqui, but since the -l is devoiced, it then assimilates the following -n and produces a double devoiced l. So you get illamiqui, nic. Then you can add the tla- non-specific non-human object which bumps out the weak initial i- of the verb, giving tlallamiqui, ni. "to be intelligent". But, last of all, the initial tl- also becomes a devoiced l, so you get lallamiqui, ni. "to be intelligent". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx ? On Feb 20, 2007, at 12:51 PM, Doug Barr wrote: > Hello, all - > > I was so good and saved all my grammar questions until my copy of > "Introduction to Classical Nahuatl" showed up, but now I have some > pronunciation questions which Andrews doesn't answer (and in one > case, raises). > > 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of > syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a > statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound > like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this > common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like > *ipampa* would do the same? > > 2. Secondary stress, especially in compound words: does stress simply > proceed back every second syllable from the penultimate, or does the > normally stressed syllable of each component other than the last > receive secondary stress? For example, "nixochitemoa," "I seek > flowers." Would that be - using capital letters for stressed > syllables - NIxoChIteMOa with regular alternation of stressed and > unstressed syllables, or niXOchiteMOa, putting secondary stress on > the XO of XOchi(tl) as would be done if it were an independent word? > I'm guessing the latter, since he says that there is a point of > 'internal open transition' - i.e. slight but audible pause - between > the constituents of a compound, which is sometimes recognized in the > traditional spelling, but confirmation or denial would be helpful... > > 3. Andrews says, "a ([voiceless n]) phone resulting from this change > (of -m at the end of a word to voiceless n) reverts to the original / > m/ sound when the following vocable of the stress group begins with a > vowel. For example, *in i:i:xpan* is pronounced ([phonetic > transcription of *im i:i:xpan*]) and in some texts is written *im > i:i:xpan*." OK, so is 'in' always pronounced as 'im' before words > beginning with a vowel, or at least words it's linked to? Why then > the classical transcription *ini:n* rather than *imi:n*, etc.? > Confused... > > Tlazohcamati! > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Feb 21 13:42:58 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:42:58 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Doug Barr : > Hello, all - > > > 2. Secondary stress, especially in compound words: does stress simply > proceed back every second syllable from the penultimate, or does the > normally stressed syllable of each component other than the last > receive secondary stress? For example, "nixochitemoa," "I seek > flowers." Would that be - using capital letters for stressed > syllables - NIxoChIteMOa with regular alternation of stressed and > unstressed syllables, or niXOchiteMOa, putting secondary stress on > the XO of XOchi(tl) as would be done if it were an independent word? > I'm guessing the latter, since he says that there is a point of > 'internal open transition' - i.e. slight but audible pause - between > the constituents of a compound, which is sometimes recognized in the > traditional spelling, but confirmation or denial would be helpful... I have troulbe making perfect sense of much of Andrews, but "nixochitemoa" would be niXOchiteMOa but: tictlazohtla TICtlaZOHtla quilnamiqui QUILnaMIqui nimitzilnamiquiz NImitzILnaMIqui Hmmmm...I'm sure Joe or Fran will have the answer. It looks like even-numbered syllables starting from the end, except with embeds, such as we see above with xochitl. Michael I'm not sure of the rule, but if you want to toss me other examples, I can tell you where the "stress" falls. :-) _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Feb 21 13:43:54 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:43:54 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: WICKED! Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Hi Doug, > I don`t know anything about number 2. And I don't understand number > 3. The example seems to suggest that he is saying that all word final > -n's were originally -m's. That doesn't sound right. > On number 1. In Huastecan Nahuatl, at least, syllable final -l's are > devoiced. Here is a fun example. In Older Central Nahuatl you have > elnamiqui, niqu, "to remember s.t." In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl you > would have ilnamiqui, but since the -l is devoiced, it then > assimilates the following -n and produces a double devoiced l. So you > get illamiqui, nic. Then you can add the tla- non-specific non-human > object which bumps out the weak initial i- of the verb, giving > tlallamiqui, ni. "to be intelligent". But, last of all, the initial > tl- also becomes a devoiced l, so you get lallamiqui, ni. "to be > intelligent". > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M?xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > ? > > > On Feb 20, 2007, at 12:51 PM, Doug Barr wrote: > >> Hello, all - >> >> I was so good and saved all my grammar questions until my copy of >> "Introduction to Classical Nahuatl" showed up, but now I have some >> pronunciation questions which Andrews doesn't answer (and in one >> case, raises). >> >> 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of >> syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a >> statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound >> like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this >> common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like >> *ipampa* would do the same? >> >> 2. Secondary stress, especially in compound words: does stress simply >> proceed back every second syllable from the penultimate, or does the >> normally stressed syllable of each component other than the last >> receive secondary stress? For example, "nixochitemoa," "I seek >> flowers." Would that be - using capital letters for stressed >> syllables - NIxoChIteMOa with regular alternation of stressed and >> unstressed syllables, or niXOchiteMOa, putting secondary stress on >> the XO of XOchi(tl) as would be done if it were an independent word? >> I'm guessing the latter, since he says that there is a point of >> 'internal open transition' - i.e. slight but audible pause - between >> the constituents of a compound, which is sometimes recognized in the >> traditional spelling, but confirmation or denial would be helpful... >> >> 3. Andrews says, "a ([voiceless n]) phone resulting from this change >> (of -m at the end of a word to voiceless n) reverts to the original / >> m/ sound when the following vocable of the stress group begins with a >> vowel. For example, *in i:i:xpan* is pronounced ([phonetic >> transcription of *im i:i:xpan*]) and in some texts is written *im >> i:i:xpan*." OK, so is 'in' always pronounced as 'im' before words >> beginning with a vowel, or at least words it's linked to? Why then >> the classical transcription *ini:n* rather than *imi:n*, etc.? >> Confused... >> >> Tlazohcamati! >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Feb 21 18:04:09 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:04:09 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions Message-ID: Doug, Put me down as one of the people on Nahuat-l who appreciates your questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us to probe what we know and what we don't know. Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and *voiceless*) when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or vocable is obviously at least partially correct. Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a vowel in the same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position (resulting in [n]) or 2) before a consonant: 1 tlami it ends up otlan it ended up 2 tzontecomatl head tzonteconcocolli headache The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is voiceless. He gives no reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source. This isn't fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without the kind of evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel compelled to -- and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the support is there for Andrews' claim! However, I have searched and reflected at length and I have found no basis for this "devoicing" claim. Further, I have difficulty in imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the limits on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl pronunciation, I doubt it. Also, I know that we are discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but I believe that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the older stages of the language were like. And in spite of having familiarity with a number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final voiceless nasal. (I have to concede that if they existed, they would be relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!) > 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of > syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a > statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound > like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this > common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like > *ipampa* would do the same? Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Wed Feb 21 18:38:04 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:38:04 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: <20070221130409.e5xhent2ck00s8s4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, I'll just add that the only words I've hearn with a voiced final n are monosyllabic. Here are a few: 1. pan (foscilized relational word): voiced final n 2. ipan (the same relational word, with a possessor): devoiced final n 3. huan (fiscilized relational word), voiced final n 4. tlan (if, versus the tla: of Classical), voiced final n 5. tlen (what, that), voiced final n. 6. quen (the comparative "like"): voiced final n. John On Feb 21, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote: > Doug, > > Put me down as one of the people on Nahuat-l who appreciates your > questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us to > probe what we know and what we don't know. > Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and *voiceless*) > when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or vocable is > obviously at > least partially correct. Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a vowel > in the same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position (resulting > in [n]) or 2) before a consonant: > > 1 > tlami it ends up > otlan it ended up > > 2 > tzontecomatl head > tzonteconcocolli headache > > The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is voiceless. He > gives no reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source. > This > isn't fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without > the > kind of evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel compelled > to -- and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the > support > is there for Andrews' claim! > However, I have searched and reflected at length and I have > found no > basis for this "devoicing" claim. Further, I have difficulty in > imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the limits > on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl pronunciation, I doubt > it. Also, I know that we are discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but I > believe that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the older > stages of the language were like. And in spite of having familiarity > with a number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final voiceless > nasal. (I have to concede that if they existed, they would be > relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!) > > >> 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of >> syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a >> statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound >> like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this >> common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like >> *ipampa* would do the same? > > Iztayohmeh, > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Wed Feb 21 18:39:15 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:39:15 -0600 Subject: final n Message-ID: Joe, What have you heard then in these cases? If nican, for example, doesn't end in a voiceless nasal, are you saying that it ends in a non-nasal aspiration? Or have you heard a voiced n in this position? The native speakers I work with can distinguish between the sound of the final n in nican and the final h in oncah. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Wed Feb 21 20:09:24 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:09:24 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: <1172085030.45dc9926e48cb@mail2.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Galen, The devoiced n I'm talking about is an aspiration (without vocal chord vibration) through the mouth and nose which is different from the final h, also breathed through the mouth and nose. I am talking right now with one of the native speakers, and he can definitely feel the difference between the two. The devoiced n has more air going through the nose than the mouth, while the final h has practically all the air going through the mouth. Words like michin and the -tzin suffix end in the devoiced n I am talking about. John On Feb 21, 2007, at 1:10 PM, brokaw at buffalo.edu wrote: > >> >> --Apple-Mail-3-502355871 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset=US-ASCII; >> delsp=yes; >> format=flowed >> >> Joe, >> I'll just add that the only words I've hearn with a voiced final n >> >> are monosyllabic. Here are a few: >> 1. pan (foscilized relational word): voiced final n >> 2. ipan (the same relational word, with a possessor): devoiced final >> n >> 3. huan (fiscilized relational word), voiced final n >> 4. tlan (if, versus the tla: of Classical), voiced final n >> 5. tlen (what, that), voiced final n. >> 6. quen (the comparative "like"): voiced final n. >> John >> >> On Feb 21, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote: >> >>> Doug, >>> >>> Put me down as one of the people on Nahuat-l who appreciates >> your >>> questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us to >>> probe what we know and what we don't know. >>> Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and >> *voiceless*) >>> when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or vocable is >>> obviously at >>> least partially correct. Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a >> vowel >>> in the same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position >> (resulting >>> in [n]) or 2) before a consonant: >>> >>> 1 >>> tlami it ends up >>> otlan it ended up >>> >>> 2 >>> tzontecomatl head >>> tzonteconcocolli headache >>> >>> The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is voiceless. >> He >>> gives no reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source. >> >>> This >>> isn't fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without >> >>> the >>> kind of evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel >> compelled >>> to -- and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the >>> support >>> is there for Andrews' claim! >>> However, I have searched and reflected at length and I have >>> found no >>> basis for this "devoicing" claim. Further, I have difficulty in >>> imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the >> limits >>> on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl pronunciation, I >> doubt >>> it. Also, I know that we are discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but >> I >>> believe that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the >> older >>> stages of the language were like. And in spite of having >> familiarity >>> with a number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final >> voiceless >>> nasal. (I have to concede that if they existed, they would be >>> relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!) >>> >>> >>>> 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of >>>> syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a >>>> statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would >> sound >>>> like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is >> this >>>> common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like >>>> *ipampa* would do the same? >>> >>> Iztayohmeh, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> >> --Apple-Mail-3-502355871 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Content-Type: text/html; >> charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> > = >> -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Joe,
> class=3D"Apple-style-span">> style=3D"white-space:pre"> I'll just add that the only words >> = >> I've hearn with a voiced final n are monosyllabic. Here are a >> = >> few:
1. pan >> = >> (foscilized relational word): voiced final = >> n
2. = >> ipan (the same relational word, with a possessor): devoiced >> final = >> n
3. huan >> = >> (> normal;">fiscilized relational word), voiced final = >> n
> class=3D"Apple-style-span">> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal;">4. tlan (if, >> = >> versus the tla:> style=3D"font-style: normal;"> of Classical), voiced final = >> n
5. tlen (what, that), voiced >> final = >> n.
> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal;">6. = >> quen> normal;"> (the comparative "like"): voiced final = >> n.
John
> class=3D"Apple-style-span">> style=3D"font-style: normal;">
On Feb 21, >> 2007, = >> at 12:04 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote:

> class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">Doug,
> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: >> = >> 14px; ">
> = >> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 Put me down as one of >> the = >> people on Nahuat-l who appreciates your> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> ">questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us = >> to=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">probe what we know and what we don't >> know.
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">=A0=A0 = >> Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and = >> *voiceless*)> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or >> = >> vocable is obviously at> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">least >> = >> partially correct.=A0 = >> Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a vowel> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in >> the = >> same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position (resulting> = >> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in >> [n]) = >> or 2) before a consonant:
> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: >> = >> 14px; ">
> = >> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 1
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">=A0 =A0 = >> tlami =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >> =A0 =A0= >> it ends up
> = >> 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 otlan> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 it >> = >> ended up
> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; >> ">
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">=A0 = >> 2
> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 tzontecomatl> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 =A0 head
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">=A0 =A0 = >> tzonteconcocolli=A0 = >> headache
> 0px; = >> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; >> ">
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">=A0=A0 = >> The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is = >> voiceless.=A0 He> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">gives >> no = >> reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source.> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 This> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">isn't >> = >> fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without >> the> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">kind >> of = >> evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel compelled> = >> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to -- >> = >> and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the >> support> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">is >> there = >> for Andrews' claim!
> = >> 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 However, I have >> searched = >> and reflected at length and I have found no> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">basis >> = >> for this "devoicing" claim.=A0 >> = >> Further, I have difficulty in> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> ">imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the = >> limits=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl = >> pronunciation, I doubt> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; >> ">it.> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 Also, I know that we are >> = >> discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but I> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; >> ">believe = >> that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the older> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; >> ">stages = >> of the language were like.=A0 >> = >> And in spite of having familiarity> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with >> a = >> number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final voiceless> = >> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> ">nasal.=A0 (I have to >> = >> concede that if they existed, they would be> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> ">relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!)
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; ">
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> min-height: 14px; ">
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced >> at = >> the end of
> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">syllables, but not about 'l'. >> = >> I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a
> 0px; = >> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">statement >> = >> that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound
> = >> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced >> lateral = >> fricative. Is this
> = >> 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">common? And I assume 'm' >> at = >> the end of syllables in words like
> 0px; = >> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">*ipampa* >> = >> would do the same?
> = >> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: >> = >> 14px; ">
> = >> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Iztayohmeh,
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; ">
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = >> ">Joe
> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; >> ">
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; = >> ">_______________________________________________
> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = >> margin-left: 0px; ">Nahuatl mailing list
> style=3D"margin-top: = >> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> > href=3D"mailto:Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org">Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org A>
<= >> DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; >> = >> margin-left: 0px; ">> > href=3D"http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl">http:// > www.famsi.or= >> g/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
= >>

= >> >> --Apple-Mail-3-502355871-- >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx Wed Feb 21 20:28:31 2007 From: silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx (silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:28:31 -0600 Subject: Ofrezco servicios. Message-ID: Hola a todos, Mi nombre es Ignacio Silva, nahuahablante de Milpa Alta y con estudios de Historia en la Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico. Estudia en el Seminario de Cultura Nahuatl que dirige Miguel Leon-Portilla. Ha trabajado en el Archivo General de la Nacion en la digitalizacion de documentos en lengua nahuatl del fondo documental Tierras. Se encuenta trabajando en la traduccion de documentos en nahuatl con Librado Silva Galeana. Ofrezco mis servicios para buscar documentacion en lengua nahuatl aqui en Mexico en el Archivo General de la Nacion; tambien para la traduccion de documentos en nahuatl. Poseo una base de datos de documentos en nahuatl del AGN, Mexico; esa base de datos posee los registros de mas de seiscientos documentos en nahuatl, en algunos casos esos documentos tienen imagenes: ofrezco la venta de las imagenes digitalizadas, las cuales puedo enviar por correo. A los interesados en contratar mis servicios me pongo a su disposicion en el siguiente correo electronico: silva171270 at prodigy.net.mx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Wed Feb 21 21:41:12 2007 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:41:12 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: <20070221084258.yl4zet53ocg0cgsg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Michael McCafferty wrote: | Quoting Doug Barr : | | > Hello, all - | > | > > 2. Secondary stress, especially in compound words: does stress simply | > proceed back every second syllable from the penultimate, or does the | > normally stressed syllable of each component other than the last | > receive secondary stress? For example, "nixochitemoa," "I seek | > flowers." Would that be - using capital letters for stressed | > syllables - Wait! I prefer to use *uppercase* letters to mark syllables whose quantities are long, rather than syllables bearing primary or secondary stress. Words in Nawatl take on different senses depending on whether they have long or short vowels. The same thing can't be said of words whose sole differences are the locations of their syllabic stress. For that reason, it is far more important to dwell on the matter of vocalic length than syllabic stress. | > NIxoChIteMOa with regular alternation of stressed and unstressed | > syllables, or niXOchiteMOa, putting secondary stress on the XO | > of XOchi(tl) as would be done if it were an independent word? Similarly, how are we to distinguish a prefix from a preposition, and count one as an integral part of a word, and the other an infix? If you are familiar with modern German (and it helps if you have studied a little Old German), a "separable prefix" is nearly the same thing as a preposition (or even a postposition in certain instances), so it quickly becomes problematical counting these syllables as separate and independent words as opposed to infixes that are separable in the same way that they are found in modern German. | > I'm guessing the latter, since he says that there is a point of | > 'internal open transition' - i.e. slight but audible pause - | > between the constituents of a compound, which is sometimes | > recognized in the traditional spelling, but confirmation or | > denial would be helpful... Say, do you think that this kind of a 'pause' is more along the lines of the caesura in Classical Latin poetry, and would therefore be more a matter of syllabic quantity than syllabic stress? | I have troulbe making perfect sense of much of Andrews, but | "nixochitemoa" would be | | niXOchiteMOa I really think uppercase vowels should be used for long vowels, as opposed to stressed vowels. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 08:22:37 2007 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:22:37 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 39, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many modern dialects turn /n/ into /h/ wordfinally especially after /i/. This has to count as a kind of devoicing. magnus > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Campbell, R Joe" > To: Doug Barr > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:04:09 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Pronunciation Questions > Doug, > > Put me down as one of the people on Nahuat-l who appreciates your > questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us to > probe what we know and what we don't know. > Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and *voiceless*) > when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or vocable is obviously at > least partially correct. Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a vowel > in the same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position (resulting > in [n]) or 2) before a consonant: > > 1 > tlami it ends up > otlan it ended up > > 2 > tzontecomatl head > tzonteconcocolli headache > > The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is voiceless. He > gives no reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source. This > isn't fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without the > kind of evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel compelled > to -- and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the support > is there for Andrews' claim! > However, I have searched and reflected at length and I have found no > basis for this "devoicing" claim. Further, I have difficulty in > imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the limits > on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl pronunciation, I doubt > it. Also, I know that we are discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but I > believe that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the older > stages of the language were like. And in spite of having familiarity > with a number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final voiceless > nasal. (I have to concede that if they existed, they would be > relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!) > > > > 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of > > syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a > > statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound > > like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this > > common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like > > *ipampa* would do the same? > > Iztayohmeh, > > Joe > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Feb 22 14:50:43 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:50:43 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 04:41 PM 2/21/2007, you wrote: >I prefer to use *uppercase* letters to mark syllables whose >quantities are long, rather than syllables bearing primary or >secondary stress. Words in Nawatl take on different senses >depending on whether they have long or short vowels. The >same thing can't be said of words whose sole differences >are the locations of their syllabic stress. > >For that reason, it is far more important to dwell on the matter >of vocalic length than syllabic stress. Two things. 1. You are absolutely correct that vowel length is more important than secondary stress, although with classical texts where vowel length was not noted, we have to do the best we can. 2. The convention that we use here on the list is to place a colon following the long vowel (since many computer mail programs do not allow us to use character sets that include a macron), and use CAPS for stress. Examples: te:-MO-a: [long e, long a, stress on the mo] - to seek something or te-MO:-hua [long o, stress on the mo] - for descent to take place John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Thu Feb 22 21:35:41 2007 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:35:41 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: <20070222144914.838.qmail@hermes.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: | At 04:41 PM 2/21/2007, you wrote: | >I prefer to use *uppercase* letters to mark syllables whose | >quantities are long, rather than syllables bearing primary or | >secondary stress. Words in Nawatl take on different senses | >depending on whether they have long or short vowels. The | >same thing can't be said of words whose sole differences | >are the locations of their syllabic stress. | > | >For that reason, it is far more important to dwell on the matter | >of vocalic length than syllabic stress. | | | Two things. | 1. You are absolutely correct that vowel length is more important | than secondary stress, although with classical texts where vowel | length was not noted, we have to do the best we can. Do you think there was anything similar to the Classical Latin caesura? | 2. The convention that we use here on the list is to place a colon | following the long vowel (since many computer mail programs do not | allow us to use character sets that include a macron), and use |CAPS for stress. | | Examples: | te:-MO-a: [long e, long a, stress on the mo] - to seek something | or | te-MO:-hua [long o, stress on the mo] - for descent to take place Hmmmm. Well. Okay. Still, I think I've seen the colon used for a stop, such as the glottal stop, for instance. I guess I'll have to keep track of your usage so I don't confuse it with anybody else's. Somehow, I'd much rather use an uppercase 'Q' for the glottal stop, if not a colon. But I think the important thing is, you can't go wrong if you just issue a series of spondaic like syllables, and so long as the vowel lengths are right, it ought to have been understandable back in the days of Classical Nawatl. I just don't think syllabic stress is as important as vowel length. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Thu Feb 22 22:37:53 2007 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:37:53 -0800 Subject: Modern Nahuatl Usage from Copalillo Guerrero Message-ID: Por la dignidad de nuestra gente y por el bienestar de un comunidad, la cual crece en su salud espiritual y mental, nos reunimos en esta ocasion. Por a?os hemos luchado por crear un espacio donde nuestras familias puedan celebrar sus usos y costumbres de forma libre y plenamente, y es ahora nuestra preocupacion que a quienes buscamos para el consuelo, nos niegan nuestro derecho como pueblos a establecer eso que no es innato, y protegido ante la ley, que es el de SER. Acompa?enos hermanos en solidaridad con la vida y la justicia. OMETEOTL Ilhuitl Chicuatzen Xihtli ika to Tata Cuahutemoc Xocoyotzi Tijuana Baja CA Mexico En el H. Ayuntamiento de Tijuana Viernes 23 6:00 pm Sabado 24 9:00 am Febrero 2007 info. TATA CUAXTLE (562) 695-7173 en Ens (646) 155 5510 Tahameh tihc neque on nican tihc chanehqueh mahc tex tlacaitan noche tequihuhaqueh on nican tequechihuah quechicah hueye Mexico. On ihc tex tlacatiticahn tlamachiliztle, tla nemiliztle, yahac tihc nequeh mahc quitlacaitacan tequihuahqueah mahc ca tlacaitacan tlin ihc textohc yohllo pilcatica. Nochipa tich tequipanohtoqueh ihcon panotihue xihtin ihuan ixqueman tex maca tequihuqueh tlinonon toch altepechanhuan quipia ahmatle. Tihc neque tihctequipanozqueh queh tohc huelohcan tohc lohlahuan ohc tex chaliltihtiahqueh. In hueye tequihuah quinequeh tex quiztiliz in achitzi tlatlaltzi tlin tahanech yohc ticualtequipanohtiahqueh camah matlahtle xihtle ipan municipio de Ensenada Baja California. Ihc toca colonia Popular 89. Nochi tohc nihuah tequihnotza mahc tihc quin tla oquican in tequihuahtlayecantzin ipan Estado de Baja California Tlazocamate Noch nihuan Recuerden que esta Ceremonia no es exclusiva para danzantes mexicas, sino para todos los mexicanos que queremos preservar nuestras raices, indentidad y cultura en Amor, fuerza y Unidad, Calpulli Chicahuac Ollin _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Feb 23 02:51:02 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:51:02 -0500 Subject: final n In-Reply-To: <986F5AE3-28FE-4CC6-822E-E0ABAE6099C9@mac.com> Message-ID: John, Your questions have sent me back to listening to field recordings to assure myself of what I 1) thought I 2) remembered hearing (in some cases, not a few years ago). But I have now realized that it may take me weeks, so I wanted to get back to you with some thoughts (although based on stale memories). In the speech of someone from San Agustin Oapa, Guerrero, where you can frequently anticipate that people are "n droppers" just by hearing their Spanish (i.e., my friend says "ellos toca"), I hear no trace of nasality in the final vowel. In fact, the final vowels of much of highland Mexican Spanish trail off in voicing (visible in a sound spectrogram), matching the description of what an [h] is and is perceived by people not accustomed to Mexican Spanish as actually *being* an [h], which for people from /s/ aspirating dialects can be perceived as being intended as an /s/. As I said, I don't hear a voiceless nasal as the result of what I am calling "nasal dropping". Some years ago, I recorded some Tarascan speech. The Tarascan voiceless nasals practically jump off the tape at you (I was going to say "literally", but we overuse that enough already), so there is no doubt in my mind or ear what a *voiceless nasal* sounds like. I would like to separate some of the issues in our cracker barrel discussion, so I'll continue in a separate message. Iztayohmeh, Joe Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Joe, > What have you heard then in these cases? If nican, for example, > doesn't end in a voiceless nasal, are you saying that it ends in a > non-nasal aspiration? Or have you heard a voiced n in this position? > The native speakers I work with can distinguish between the sound of > the final n in nican and the final h in oncah. > John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Feb 23 05:22:38 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:22:38 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions Message-ID: John, I have a few comments on some details that you described below -- I rearranged your text to relate two points that you made. > The devoiced n I'm talking about is an aspiration (without vocal > chord vibration) through the mouth and nose which is different from > the final h, also breathed through the mouth and nose. -------- > The devoiced n has more air going > through the nose than the mouth, while the final h has practically > all the air going through the mouth. *********** If the devoiced n has more air going through the nose than the mouth, it must be because the buccal passageway is nearly blocked (or totally blocked) by the tip of tongue at the alveolar ridge (or the teeth). Sounds that have at least some degree of obstruction in the air flow through the mouth are classified as consonants, so this sounds like a voiceless nasal consonant. And, of course, the velum is lowered, opening the passageway to the nasal cavity. If the final h has practically all the air going through mouth, then the velum is "practically" raised, closing the passageway to the nasal cavity. And h's are like vowels, having open, unobstructed air flow through the mouth. Is this an accurate characterization of the facts? ******************** > I am talking right now with one of the native speakers, > and he can definitely feel > the difference between the two. ******************** I don't want to wave a red flag at you about using the judgement of native speakers about pronunciation, but I have a few comments on the danger in it. 1. In one of my early linguistics classes, my professor, Henry R. Kahane, a famous Romance philologist who had soaked up the principles of American Structuralism, was trying to make the point that you *had* to take the data that the native speaker presented you with. In his marked German accent (University of Berlin Ph.D), he glared at us and pointed his finger and said: "Zee native speaker iss always right" And then he smiled slyly and said: "Zat iss rule number one. Rule number two iss: 'Never turn your back on zee native speaker." Then he explained that linguistic analysis really was about real linguistic behavior, *not* about our possibly puristic preconceptions (the alliteration is free) about what the speaker meant to say. But rule number two simply reminded us that the native speaker is not a trained phonetician, nor does he have access to the intricacies of syntactic analysis. Further, he has prejudices that are not part of the data. This is not to say that those very prejudices are not interesting to the analyst and worthy of explanation. ...but they are not phonetic data. 2. In the 1930's, Edward Sapir published his famous article, "The Psychological Reality of Phonemes", in which he described an incident with his "native interpreter" of Southern Paiute, Tony. When Tony was asked to write a particular word, he demonstrated that he believed that he was pronouncing something other than what he actually pronounced. 3. In 1970-71, a speaker of the Hueyapan, Morelos, dialect of Nahuatl spent the academic year in Bloomington to help me as co-teacher and informant in teaching Indiana University's first course in Nahuatl. We worked in my office several hours a week, as well as presenting the material in class three times a week. After a month of work, I said to her apologetically that I realized that I didn't write Nahuatl in the traditional way that it appeared in some many documents, but was she familiar enough with my k's and w's and ts's for her to write some words down? She said "Quemah" (or at the time, actually, "kemah"). So I said "lo oigo" and she wrote "nikagi". We did several more words (with Sapir smiling over my shoulder the whole time) and then I said "mujer" -- she wrote "sobatl"!! She had been pronouncing each of the words as we proceeded and this time I expressed mild surprise, saying that I just didn't hear it that well. (She had clearly said "soatl".) She repeated it over and over and I kept expressing my inability to hear anything between the "o" and the "a". Finally, she leaned over the desk and said "ssssooooo aaatl". I soon realized that although there was no [b] in her pronunciation, there was certainly reason for her to believe that there *was*. Here are the relevant data from Hueyapan (in a 'phonetic' looking transcription): wetsi he falls nivetsi I fall oets he fell The facts are straightforward: 1. /w/ is the initial phoneme in the stem meaning "fall". 2. /w/ becomes [v] intervocally (i.e. between vowels); [v] is written as either "v" or "b" in the language of literacy of Hueyapan (i.e., Spanish). 3. /w/ deletes when immediately followed by /o/. Thus, when a speaker of Nahuatl from Hueyapan either says or hears a sequence of /o/ followed by another vowel, it is perfectly reasonable for them to intuit and *strongly believe* that there is a /w/, which they believe is realized as [v] immediately after the /o/. Iztayohmeh, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Feb 23 13:40:41 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:40:41 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The current convention for the glottal stop is to use the letter -h- Others use the question mark -?- The use of the -h- conforms to what we call the modified Franciscan-Jesuit system. The only drawback is that for beginners in the language they think all -h- occurrences are glottal stops, and we use the -h- in various digraphs: -hu- for the "w" sound, and of course -ch- At 04:35 PM 2/22/2007, Matthew Montchalin wrote: >| 2. The convention that we use here on the list is to place a colon >| following the long vowel (since many computer mail programs do not >| allow us to use character sets that include a macron), and use >|CAPS for stress. >| >| Examples: >| te:-MO-a: [long e, long a, stress on the mo] - to seek something >| or >| te-MO:-hua [long o, stress on the mo] - for descent to take place > >Hmmmm. Well. Okay. Still, I think I've seen the colon used for a >stop, such as the glottal stop, for instance. I guess I'll have to >keep track of your usage so I don't confuse it with anybody else's. >Somehow, I'd much rather use an uppercase 'Q' for the glottal stop, >if not a colon. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Fri Feb 23 15:01:18 2007 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:01:18 +0000 Subject: Pronunciation Questions In-Reply-To: <20070223002238.0d6bxzh2as4owcs4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Someone wrote:- > 2. The convention that we use here on the list is to place a colon > following the long vowel (since many computer mail programs do not > allow us to use character sets that include a macron), and use >CAPS for stress. > > Examples: > te:-MO-a: [long e, long a, stress on the mo] - to seek something > or > te-MO:-hua [long o, stress on the mo] - for descent to take place > At 04:35 PM 2/22/2007, Matthew Montchalin wrote: >Hmmmm. Well. Okay. Still, I think I've seen the colon used for a >stop, such as the glottal stop, for instance. I guess I'll have to >keep track of your usage so I don't confuse it with anybody else's. >Somehow, I'd much rather use an uppercase 'Q' for the glottal stop, >if not a colon. "John F. Schwaller" wrote:- > The current convention for the glottal stop is to use the letter > -h- Others use the question mark -?- The use of the -h- conforms to > what we call the modified Franciscan-Jesuit system. The only > drawback is that for beginners in the language they think all -h- > occurrences are glottal stops, and we use the -h- in various > digraphs: -hu- for the "w" sound, and of course -ch- Using uppercase Q for glottal stop would look strange and make the text look like Klingon. Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Fri Feb 23 16:06:07 2007 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:06:07 -0500 Subject: final n In-Reply-To: <20070222215102.lpipnif080k4cwcg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, Oapan does have some interesting things going on with final /n/ and vowel-final words. In phrase-final position word-final /n/ is often a light aspiration that to me seems indistinguishable from final /h/. Thus xo:tlan 'it wasn't finished' is indistinguisable from xo:tlah 'they get red hot'. This is not the case with all speakers, though. Some speakers might have final /n/ going to a velarized /n/, as occurs in some neighboring villages. These seem to be the older speakers. Others have neither the aspiration nor the velarized nasal, but simply a final vowel. However, unlike the case with "real" vowel-final phrases in which there is a phrase-final glottal stop, in these cases there is simply a final vowel. Within a phrase I have noticed that word-final /n/ deletes before a vowel-initial word. Thus i:pan asi 's/he arrives there to where s/he is' is pronounced as [i:pa asi] (actually with the Oapan pitch accent, [i:p? as?]) On the other hand, there is often an /n/ inserted when a word-final vowel is followed by a consonant-initial word. Thus kiteki xo:chitl is sometimes realized as [kitekin xo:chitl] (with the introduced /n/ slightly velarized) This is confusing as some speakers also realize word-final phrase-internal /h/ as /n/, thus kitekih xo:chitl is realized also as [kitekin xo:chitl]. The major difference between singular and plural is the prosody, therefore [kiteki x?:chitl] or [kitekin x?:chitl] he cuts flowers (the accent indicates phrasal intonation) [kit?ki x?:chitl] or [kit?kin x?:chitl] they cut flowers best, jda Quoting "Campbell, R Joe" : > John, > > Your questions have sent me back to listening to field recordings to > assure myself of what I 1) thought I 2) remembered hearing (in some > cases, not a few > years ago). But I have now realized that it may take me weeks, so I > wanted to get back to you with some thoughts (although based on stale > memories). > > In the speech of someone from San Agustin Oapa, Guerrero, where you > can frequently anticipate that people are "n droppers" just by hearing > their Spanish (i.e., my friend says "ellos toca"), I hear no trace of > nasality in the final vowel. In fact, the final vowels of much of > highland Mexican Spanish trail off in voicing (visible in a sound > spectrogram), matching the description of what an [h] is and is > perceived by people not accustomed to Mexican Spanish as actually > *being* an [h], which for people from /s/ aspirating dialects can be > perceived as being intended as an /s/. > > As I said, I don't hear a voiceless nasal as the result of what I am > calling "nasal dropping". Some years ago, I recorded some Tarascan > speech. The Tarascan voiceless nasals practically jump off the tape at > you (I was going to say "literally", but we overuse that enough > already), so there is no doubt in my mind or ear what a *voiceless > nasal* sounds like. > > I would like to separate some of the issues in our cracker barrel > discussion, so I'll continue in a separate message. > > Iztayohmeh, > > Joe > > > Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > >> Joe, >> What have you heard then in these cases? If nican, for example, >> doesn't end in a voiceless nasal, are you saying that it ends in a >> non-nasal aspiration? Or have you heard a voiced n in this position? >> The native speakers I work with can distinguish between the sound of >> the final n in nican and the final h in oncah. >> John > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Feb 24 04:00:35 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:00:35 -0500 Subject: final n In-Reply-To: <20070223110607.8q4uvtu2qgc8g0c8@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan, I read and re-read your message several times today in the midst of listening to Oapan (and other) field recordings. I am definitely listening with different ears as a result of your comments and John's originally focussing our attention on what happens to nasals (mainly in word-final position). I have repeatedly said (and possibly once to you) that Oapan is the most difficult dialect of Nahuatl that I have encountered -- and I didn't really begin to penetrate some problems until I read your explanation about some things, one being the stress shift related to the loss of /h/. All the best, Joe Quoting jonathan.amith at yale.edu: > Joe, > > Oapan does have some interesting things going on with final /n/ and > vowel-final > words. > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Feb 28 16:10:28 2007 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:10:28 +0100 Subject: "internal silence" Message-ID: I looked up "silencio" in the Molina dictionary and found "necahualiztli", and then looked up this word in Frances' dictionary but could not find it. I wanted to translate "internal silence" (meaning someone's) so I gathered I could say "teitic necahualiztli"?? Would this be all right? May I take the opportunity to also ask what is the Nahuatl word for the flower "rose"? - Molina says "tlapalpopoco" but I cannot understand what is the role of smoke here! Thank you a lot. Susana Moraleda _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Wed Feb 28 17:54:08 2007 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:54:08 +0000 Subject: rose flower In-Reply-To: <001901c75b53$1e7d9bb0$69882597@mexico> Message-ID: --- Susana Moraleda wrote: > May I take the opportunity to also ask what is the Nahuatl word for > the flower "rose"? - Molina says "tlapalpopoco" but I cannot > understand what is the role of smoke here! > Thank you a lot. Susana Moraleda Karttunen's dictionary lists these words:- - [popo_tl] (plural -meh) = "plant used to make brooms; broom, straw / escoba" - [tlapal-li]= "dye, color" (must have an owner?) But "at the colored broom-like plant" would be [tlapalpopo_c]. Were roses native to Mexico? Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Feb 28 21:52:01 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:52:01 -0500 Subject: "internal silence" In-Reply-To: <001901c75b53$1e7d9bb0$69882597@mexico> Message-ID: Susana, First, I think that we should clear away the smoke. While "poc-" is involved in 'smoke' (i.e., "poctli" and "poca"), Molina's entries in both 1555 and 1571 (Spanish-Nahuatl) have "castillan tlapalpopozo" (where my 'z' represents 'c cedilla'). Now the question is: what is the role of the "...popozo"? Mary and I have searched at length and in sneaky ways to identify it, but no xabon. There is a "poya:hui" which (if it could lose its last *2* syllables could change y > x and then x > z), but no verbs in -ya:hui do that. ... and "poya:hui" is connected with color. We included a list of Molina's words involving "rosa" below. Iztayohmeh, Joe and Mary * rosa ** castillan tlapalpopozo. rosa flor y mata conocida. 55m 217v castillan tlapalpopozo. rosa flor,y mata conocida. 71m1-105v2 castillan xochitl. flor o rosa de castilla. 55m-125r castillan xochitl. flor o rosa de castilla. 71m1-63v1 cueponcayotl. flor o rosa generalmente. 71m1-63v1 cueponi, ni- dar estallido el hueuo, o la casta?a quando la asan, o abrirse y abrotar la flor, o la rosa, o resplandecer alguna cosa. 71m2-26r2 moloni. heruir o espessarse las nuues, esparzirse la suauidad del olor dela rosa o del yncienso o esparzirse las plumas menudas. 71m1-71r1 rosa. flor o rosa de castilla. 55m-125r rosa. flor o rosa de castilla. 71m1-63v1 xiuhatlapalli. hoja de rosa o flor. 71m1 71v2 xochi atlapalli. hoja de rosa o de flor. 71m2-161v2 xochiatlapalli. hoja de rosa o flor. 55m 141r xochiatlapalli. hoja de rosa, o flor. 71m2 160r1 xochiocuilin. gusano de rosa. 55m-134v xochiocuilin. gusano de rosa. 71m1-67v2 xochitl. flor o rosa generalmente. 71m1-63v1 xochitl. flor o rosa. 71m2-161v2 xochitl. rosa, o flor. 71m2-160r2 xochizhuatl. hoja de rosa o flor. 55m-141r xochizhuatl. hoja de rosa o flor. 71m1-71v2 xochizhuatl. hoja de rosa. 71m2-160r2 xochizhuatl. hoja de flor, o rosa. 71m2-162r1 * rosada ** paatl. agua rosada, vnguento suaue, o cosa semejante para recrear el cuerpo. 71m2-78v1 rosasneuctli. miel rosada. 55m-171r rosasneuctli. miel rosada. 71m1-84v2 xochatl. agua rosada. 55m-10v xochatl. agua rosada. 71m1-6r1 xochatl. agua rosada. 71m2-160r1 xochatl. agua rosada. 71m2-161v2 xochiatl. agua rosada. 55m-10v xochiatl. agua rosada. 71m1-6r1 xochiatl. agua rosada. 71m2-160r1 xochiatl. agua rosada. 71m2-161v2 xochio neuctli. miel rosada. 55m-171r xochio neuctli. miel rosada. 71m1-84v2 xochio neuctli. miel rosada. 71m2-161v2 xochipaltic. cosa ruuia assi, o rosada. 71m2-161v2 * rosado ** iztalehualli, tla- color encarnado o rosado. 71m2-146v2 iztalehualtic, tla- color encarnado o rosado. 71m2-146v2 iztalehualtic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 55m-217v iztalehualtic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 71m1-105v2 palpoyactic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 55m-217v palpoyactic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 71m1-105v2 rosasazeite. azeite rosado. 71m1-18r2 tlapalpoyactic. color rosado o naranjado. 71m2-130v2 xochiazeite. azeite rosado. 71m1-18r2 xochipaltia, ni- tornarse de color rosado. 71m2-161v2 xochiyo. rosado de materia de rosas. 55m-217v xochiyo. rosado de materia de rosas. 71m1-105v2 * rosal ** xochioa. brotar o florecer el rosal. 71m2 161v2 xochiotia, mo- florecer o echar rosas el rosal. 71m2-061r2 xochitequi, ni- coger flores, o rosas del rosal. 71m2-160r2 xochitequi, ni- coger flores o rosas del rosal. 71m2-161v2 * rosas ** cecencatohuiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 55m-144v cecencatohuiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 71m1-73r2 cecencatohuiliztli, ne- juego de rosas como con pelota. 71m2-064r2 cecencatolhui, mo- el que juega con rosas como con pelota. 71m2-57v2 cecencatolhuia, nino- iugar con rosas. 55m-145r cecencatolhuia, nino- iugar con rosas. 71m1-73r2 cecentelhuia, nino- iugar con rosas. 55m-145r cecentelhuia, nino- iugar con rosas. 71m1-73r2 cecentelhuiani, mo- el que juega con rosas como con pelota. 71m2-57v2 cecentelhuiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 55m-144v cecentelhuiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 71m1-73r2 icpacxochichihua, n- corona de rosas hazer. 71m1-30v1 icpacxochitl. corona de rosas o guirnalda. 71m1-30v1 iztalehualtic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 55m-217v iztalehualtic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 71m1-105v2 palpoyactic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 55m-217v palpoyactic, tla- rosado color de rosas. 71m1-105v2 quechcotonaliztli, tla- el acto de coger o cortar espigas de trigo, rosas o frutas con la mano. 71m2-133v2 tapayollalaza, ni- jugar ala pelota o con rosas. 71m2-91r1 tlaxochicuiya, nitla- emboluer algo con faxa, o faxar, o emboluer y adornar algo con guirnaldas de rosas y flores. 71m2-146v2 tlaxochtecuiya, nitla- emboluer algo con faxa, o faxar, o emboluer y adornar algo con guirnaldas de rosas y flores. 71m2-146v2 xochichihua, ni- hazer ramillote o manojo de rosas o flores. 71m2-161v2 xochiotia, mo- florecer o echar rosas el rosal. 71m2-061r2 xochitequi, ni- coger flores, o rosas del rosal. 71m2-160r2 xochitequi, ni- coger flores o rosas del rosal. 71m2-161v2 xochiyo. rosado de materia de rosas. 55m-217v xochiyo. rosado de materia de rosas. 71m1-105v2 xochiyotia, nitla- poner rosas o flores en alguna cosa para adornarla. 71m1-97r2 xochiyotia, nitla- rosas poner enalguna cosa o enrosar algo. 71m1-105v2 xoxochitlaxili, mo- el que juega con rosas echando las en alto y recogendolas. 71m2-061r2 xoxochitlaxilia, nino- iugar con rosas. 55m-145r xoxochitlaxilia, nino- iugar con rosas. 71m1-73r2 xoxochitlaxilia, nino- jugar con rosas. 71m2-161v1 xoxochitlaxiliani, mo- el que juega con rosas echando las en alto y recogendolas. 71m2-061r2 xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 55m-144v xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne- iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota. 71m1-73r2 xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne- juego de rosas como con pelota. 71m2-71v1 > May I take the opportunity to also ask what is the Nahuatl word for the > flower "rose"? - Molina says "tlapalpopoco" but I cannot understand what is > the role of smoke here! > > Thank you a lot. > > Susana Moraleda > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl