From susana at losrancheros.org  Thu Mar  1 00:01:01 2007
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 01:01:01 +0100
Subject: rose flower
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2007.010101.0100.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Thanks a lot Joe and Anthony!! Yes, let's clear out the smoke... that was my
own mistake. I realize now. It is tlapalpopozo and not tlapalpopoco or
popoca... mmm.. but what is "popozo"?? Does it then relate to popotl?  (what
we call in Mexico "popote", or drinking straw, or just straws)  but....
where are the straws in a rose?

That was an incredible list and I really appreciate you taking so much time
to share it with me (us). Huey huey tlazocamati. Actually the other word
that "rings the bell" for me is Cueponcayotl, and would like to know more
about its etimology, if I may.

I don't know if roses were present in Mexico before the Spanish invasion.
I recall the story of Juan Diego and Cuauhtlapcupeuh, but that was a decade
after 1521. So much for the inclusion of the word "castillan" before
xochitl.

Susana


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ANTHONY APPLEYARD" <a.appleyard at btinternet.com>
To: <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 6:54 PM
Subject: [Nahuat-l] rose flower


> --- Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org> wrote:
> > May I take the opportunity to also ask what is the Nahuatl word for
> > the flower "rose"? - Molina says "tlapalpopoco" but I cannot
> > understand what is the role of smoke here!
> > Thank you a lot. Susana Moraleda
>
> Karttunen's dictionary lists these words:-
> - [popo_tl] (plural -meh) = "plant used to make brooms; broom, straw /
> escoba"
> - [tlapal-li]= "dye, color" (must have an owner?)
>
> But "at the colored broom-like plant" would be [tlapalpopo_c].
>
> Were roses native to Mexico?
>
> Citlalyani.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
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From idiez at mac.com  Thu Mar  1 01:13:37 2007
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:13:37 -0600
Subject: "internal silence"
In-Reply-To: <20070228165201.gdmthhj9c4sko844@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2007.191337.0600.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

Joetzin,
	I don't have my dictionary with me, but might there be a popoz-tli  
(or maybe a misspelled popoxtli, popotz-tli, popoch-tli) that upon  
the addition of -yoh or -yo would go to popozzo(h) / popoço(h)?
John


On Feb 28, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote:

> Susana,
>
>    First, I think that we should clear away the smoke.   While "poc-"
> is involved in 'smoke' (i.e., "poctli" and "poca"), Molina's  
> entries in
> both
> 1555 and 1571 (Spanish-Nahuatl) have "castillan  
> tlapalpopozo" (where my 'z'
> represents 'c cedilla').  Now the question is: what is the role of the
> "...popozo"?  Mary and I have searched at length and in sneaky ways to
> identify
> it, but no xabon.  There is a "poya:hui" which (if it could lose its
> last *2* syllables could change y > x and then x > z), but no verbs in
> -ya:hui do that.
> ... and "poya:hui" is connected with color.
>
>    We included a list of Molina's words involving "rosa" below.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe and Mary
>
>
> * rosa **
> castillan tlapalpopozo.  rosa flor y mata conocida.  55m 217v
> castillan tlapalpopozo.  rosa flor,y mata conocida.  71m1-105v2
> castillan xochitl.  flor o rosa de castilla.  55m-125r
> castillan xochitl.  flor o rosa de castilla.  71m1-63v1
> cueponcayotl.  flor o rosa generalmente.   71m1-63v1
> cueponi, ni-  dar estallido el hueuo, o la casta¤a quando la asan,  
> o abrirse
>   y abrotar la flor, o la rosa, o resplandecer alguna cosa. 71m2-26r2
> moloni.  heruir o espessarse las nuues, esparzirse la suauidad del
>   olor dela rosa o del yncienso o esparzirse las plumas menudas.
>     71m1-71r1
> rosa.  flor o rosa de castilla.  55m-125r
> rosa.  flor o rosa de castilla.  71m1-63v1
> xiuhatlapalli.  hoja de rosa o flor.  71m1 71v2
> xochi atlapalli.  hoja de rosa o de flor.  71m2-161v2
> xochiatlapalli.  hoja de rosa o flor.  55m 141r
> xochiatlapalli.  hoja de rosa, o flor.  71m2 160r1
> xochiocuilin.  gusano de rosa.  55m-134v
> xochiocuilin.  gusano de rosa.  71m1-67v2
> xochitl.  flor o rosa generalmente.  71m1-63v1
> xochitl.  flor o rosa.  71m2-161v2
> xochitl.  rosa, o flor.  71m2-160r2
> xochizhuatl.  hoja de rosa o flor.  55m-141r
> xochizhuatl.  hoja de rosa o flor.  71m1-71v2
> xochizhuatl.  hoja de rosa.  71m2-160r2
> xochizhuatl.  hoja de flor, o rosa.  71m2-162r1
>
>
> * rosada **
> paatl.  agua rosada, vnguento suaue, o cosa semejante para recrear el
>   cuerpo.  71m2-78v1
> rosasneuctli.  miel rosada.  55m-171r
> rosasneuctli.  miel rosada.  71m1-84v2
> xochatl.  agua rosada.  55m-10v
> xochatl.  agua rosada.  71m1-6r1
> xochatl.  agua rosada.  71m2-160r1
> xochatl.  agua rosada.  71m2-161v2
> xochiatl.  agua rosada.  55m-10v
> xochiatl.  agua rosada.  71m1-6r1
> xochiatl.  agua rosada.  71m2-160r1
> xochiatl.  agua rosada.  71m2-161v2
> xochio neuctli.  miel rosada.  55m-171r
> xochio neuctli.  miel rosada.  71m1-84v2
> xochio neuctli.  miel rosada.  71m2-161v2
> xochipaltic.  cosa ruuia assi, o rosada.   71m2-161v2
>
> * rosado **
> iztalehualli, tla-  color encarnado o rosado.  71m2-146v2
> iztalehualtic, tla-  color encarnado o rosado.  71m2-146v2
> iztalehualtic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  55m-217v
> iztalehualtic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  71m1-105v2
> palpoyactic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  55m-217v
> palpoyactic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  71m1-105v2
> rosasazeite.  azeite rosado.  71m1-18r2
> tlapalpoyactic.  color rosado o naranjado.  71m2-130v2
> xochiazeite.  azeite rosado.  71m1-18r2
> xochipaltia, ni-  tornarse de color rosado.   71m2-161v2
> xochiyo.  rosado de materia de rosas.  55m-217v
> xochiyo.  rosado de materia de rosas.  71m1-105v2
>
>
> * rosal **
> xochioa.  brotar o florecer el rosal.  71m2 161v2
> xochiotia, mo-  florecer o echar rosas el rosal.  71m2-061r2
> xochitequi, ni-  coger flores, o rosas del rosal.  71m2-160r2
> xochitequi, ni-  coger flores o rosas del rosal.  71m2-161v2
>
> * rosas **
> cecencatohuiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     55m-144v
> cecencatohuiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     71m1-73r2
> cecencatohuiliztli, ne-  juego de rosas como con pelota.  71m2-064r2
> cecencatolhui, mo-  el que juega con rosas como con pelota. 71m2-57v2
> cecencatolhuia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  55m-145r
> cecencatolhuia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  71m1-73r2
> cecentelhuia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  55m-145r
> cecentelhuia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  71m1-73r2
> cecentelhuiani, mo-  el que juega con rosas como con pelota. 71m2-57v2
> cecentelhuiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     55m-144v
> cecentelhuiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     71m1-73r2
> icpacxochichihua, n-  corona de rosas hazer.  71m1-30v1
> icpacxochitl.  corona de rosas o guirnalda.   71m1-30v1
> iztalehualtic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  55m-217v
> iztalehualtic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  71m1-105v2
> palpoyactic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  55m-217v
> palpoyactic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  71m1-105v2
> quechcotonaliztli, tla-  el acto de coger o cortar espigas de trigo,
>   rosas o frutas con la mano.  71m2-133v2
> tapayollalaza, ni-  jugar ala pelota o con rosas.  71m2-91r1
> tlaxochicuiya, nitla-  emboluer algo con faxa, o faxar, o emboluer y
>   adornar algo con guirnaldas de rosas y flores.  71m2-146v2
> tlaxochtecuiya, nitla-  emboluer algo con faxa, o faxar, o emboluer y
>   adornar algo con guirnaldas de rosas y flores.  71m2-146v2
> xochichihua, ni-  hazer ramillote o manojo de rosas o flores.   
> 71m2-161v2
> xochiotia, mo-  florecer o echar rosas el rosal.  71m2-061r2
> xochitequi, ni-  coger flores, o rosas del rosal.  71m2-160r2
> xochitequi, ni-  coger flores o rosas del rosal.  71m2-161v2
> xochiyo.  rosado de materia de rosas.  55m-217v
> xochiyo.  rosado de materia de rosas.  71m1-105v2
> xochiyotia, nitla-  poner rosas o flores en alguna cosa para
>   adornarla.  71m1-97r2
> xochiyotia, nitla-  rosas poner enalguna cosa o enrosar algo.   
> 71m1-105v2
> xoxochitlaxili, mo-  el que juega con rosas echando las en alto y
>   recogendolas.  71m2-061r2
> xoxochitlaxilia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  55m-145r
> xoxochitlaxilia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  71m1-73r2
> xoxochitlaxilia, nino-  jugar con rosas.  71m2-161v1
> xoxochitlaxiliani, mo-  el que juega con rosas echando las en alto y
>   recogendolas.  71m2-061r2
> xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     55m-144v
> xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     71m1-73r2
> xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne-  juego de rosas como con pelota.  71m2-71v1
>
>
>
>
>> May I take the opportunity to also ask what is the Nahuatl word  
>> for the
>> flower "rose"? - Molina says "tlapalpopoco" but I cannot  
>> understand what is
>> the role of smoke here!
>>
>> Thank you a lot.
>>
>> Susana Moraleda
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Thu Mar  1 04:34:37 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:34:37 -0800
Subject: Book recommendation
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2007.203437.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Hello, I'm new on the list; Kier Salmon.
I live in Portland, Oregon and grew up in México, D.F. (18 years  
worth).  Although my ultimate goal is to learn Nahuatl (porque soy  
mula y me da coraje qué nunca pensé en hacerlo cuando era joven) at  
this moment my short term goal is to understand how the language is  
structured well enough so that the characters in a book I am planning  
to write (Alternate history starting in 1475 ish) will be able to  
speak in a way that has the "flavor" of the language, even though  
most of the words are English.   I'm less worried about portraying  
them well (I feel "el carácter mexica" hasn't changed too much) than  
I am to make their speech intelligible and at the same time give my  
reader the knowledge that these aren't modern people with modern  
ideology, what I call the "primitive moderns syndrome."
So the question for today is; I ran across the following book today  
in Powells (our big bookstore):

Nahuas and Spaniards: Postconquest Central Mexican History and  
Philology (Ucla Latin American Studies, Vol 76) by James Lockhart

Is it a worthwhile book for my purposes?
I've got close to 30 books waiting to be read... so I'm trying to be  
picky about the new books I buy.
Gracias (hmmm, como se daban gracias los tenochcas?)
_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Thu Mar  1 19:04:03 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:04:03 -0500
Subject: "internal silence"
In-Reply-To: <CA8EEEE4-FEED-4AF0-8115-99CFBDC024FF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2007.140403.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." <idiez at mac.com>:

> Joetzin,
> 	I don't have my dictionary with me, but might there be a popoz-tli
> (or maybe a misspelled popoxtli, popotz-tli, popoch-tli) that upon
> the addition of -yoh or -yo would go to popozzo(h) / popoço(h)?
> John


Johntzi,

   (My keyboard's 'devoiced n' is really hard to see...)   I liked your 
idea of chasing the identity of the "-popozo" further, so I got out my 
yellow marker and looked through the three Molinas and the Florentine.  
I don't think any of the things that I found will help solve the 
problem, but here they are.
   I stripped prefixes off and postposed them with a comma; bracketed 
letters indicate vowels that belong morphologically, but are deleted 
phonetically.
Numbers refer to which Molina or which book of the Florentine.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe


  ;amochipopozoquillotl.
   espuma de esta¤o {71m1-11}
   escoria de esta¤o {71m2-1}
   espuma de esta¤o {55m-9}


  ;apopozoquillotia , m[o].
   it foams  << 1  1>>


  ;apopozoquillotl.
   espuma de agua {71m1-11}
   espuma de agua {71m2-2}
   espuma de agua {55m-9}
   foam  << 2  4>>
   foam  <<11 22>>


  ;campopotztic.
   carrilludo {71m1-4}
   ombre carrilludo o de grandes mexillas {71m1-16}
   carrilludo {71m2-2}
   ombre carrilludo o de grandes mexillas {55m-15}

  ;campopozactic.
   carrilludo {71m1-4}
   ombre carrilludo o de grandes mexillas {71m1-16}
   carrilludo {71m2-2}
   carrilludo {55m-3}
   ombre carrilludo o de grandes mexillas {55m-15}


  ;campopoztic.
   carrilludo {55m-3}


  ;castillan tlapalpopozo.
   rosa flor y mata conocida {55m-17}
   rosa flor y mata conocida {71m1-19}


  ;cemixtlilpopotz , mo.
   his face was covered with soot  << 1  2>>


  ;chapopoxahuaya , mo.
   they painted their faces with bitumen  << 8  3>>


  ;cozticteocuitlapopozoquillotl.
   espuma o escoria de oro {71m1-11}
   espuma de oro {55m-9}


  ;elpopozahua , nin.
   estomagarse enojarse {71m1-11}
   estomagarse de enojo {71m2-5}
   estomagarse enojarse {55m-9}


  ;ichpopochchicacti.
   recently matured maidens  << 2  4>>

  ;ichpopochpipil.
   unmarried girls  << 4 11>>


  ;ichpopochti.
   young girls  << 2  2>>
   maidens  << 2  3>>


  ;ichpopochtin.
   virgins  << 6 17>>


  ;ichpopochtotonti.
   little girls  <<10  5>>
   young girls  <<10 11>>


  ;ichpopochtzitzinti.
   maidens  << 6  9>>


  ;icxipopoxoa , nitla.
   cauar la tierra o escaruarla con el pie, estando hablando con otro {71m1-5}


  ;[i]cxipopoxoa , nitla.
   escaruar la tierra con los pies, estando hablando con otro {71m1-10}

  ;icxipopoxoa , nitla.
   escaruar la tierra conel pie {71m2-6}


  ;[i]cxipopoxoani , tla.
   cauador tal {71m1-5}
   escaruador tal {71m1-10}


  ;[i]cxipopoxoliztli , tla.
   cauadura desta manera {71m1-5}
   escaruadura assi {71m1-10}


  ;[i]cxipopoxolli , tla.
   cauada tierra assi {71m1-5}
   escaruada tierra desta manera {71m1-10}


  ;[i]cxipopoxoqui , tla.
   escaruador tal {71m1-10}


  ;ixcuatolpopozactic.
   having swollen eyelids  << 2  2>>


  ;ixcuatolpopozahuac.
   his eyelids are swollen  << 7  1>>

  ;ixpopotztic.
   ___  << 2  2>>


  ;ixpopozahua.
   his eyes are inflamed, swollen  << 4  2>>


  ;ixpopozahuac.
   his eyes are swollen  << 7  1>>


  ;ixtlilpopotz , m[o].
   his face was covered with soot  << 1  1>>


  ;ixtlilpopotza , qu.
   they blacken their faces  << 3  4>>


  ;ixtlilpopotzalli , tla.
   having his face covered with soot  << 1  1>>


  ;ixtlilpopotzque , m[o].
   they applied black paint to their [refl.] faces  << 2  3>>


  ;ixtlilpopotztinenca , m[o].
   he went about with his face smoke-black  << 2  3>>


  ;iztacteocuitlapopozoquillotl.
   espuma de plata {71m1-11}
   escoria de plata {71m2-9}
   espuma de plata {55m-9}


  ;nexpopoxoa , qui.
   he stirs it in ashes  <<10  4>>


  ;popochehuaticac texcalli.
   despe¤adero {71m1-8}


  ;popochhhuia , ontla.
   they spread fragrance  << 8  4>>


  ;popochhui , tla.
   sahumador el que sahuma {71m1-19}
   el que inciensa o zahuma algo. s. el turificador o inciensador {71m2-23}
   sahumador el que sahuma {55m-18}


  ;popochhuia , mo.
   she perfumes herself  <<10  3>>
   he is incensed incense is applied to him  <<11 14>>
   he is affected by incense  <<11 19>>


  ;popochhuia , nino.
   perfumarse, o zahumarse {71m2-14}


  ;popochhuia , nite.
   zahumar, o incensar a otro {71m2-14}


  ;popochhuia , nitla.
   encensar {71m1-9}
   perfumar {71m1-17}
   sahumar {71m1-19}
   incensar o perfumar {71m2-14}
   encenssar {55m-7}
   sahumar {55m-18}


  ;popochhuia , qui.
   they incense him, they apply incense to him  << 2  3>>
   they offer him incense  << 6  9>>
   they perfume it  << 8  4>>


  ;popochhuia , tla.
   they offer incense  << 2 12>>
   he perfumes something  << 8  4>>


  ;popochhuiani , tla.
   encensador o turificador {71m1-9}
   sahumador el que sahuma {71m1-19}
   el que inciensa o zahuma algo. s. el turificador o inciensador {71m2-23}
   encenssador o turificador {55m-7}
   sahumador el que sahuma {55m-18}


  ;popochhuiliztli , ne.
   act of applying incense  <<10  8>>


  ;popochhuiliztli , tla.
   act of offering incense  << 6  9>>
   sahumerio {71m1-19}
   el acto de incensar o zahumar y perfumar algo {71m2-23}
   sahumerio {55m-18}


  ;popochhuilli , tla.
   encensado {71m1-9}
   cosa incensada assi {71m2-23}
   encenssado {55m-7}


  ;popochhuilo , ne.
   there is incensing  <<11 16>>


  ;popochhuiloni , tla.
   incense burner  << 9  6>>
   encensario {71m1-9}
   sahumador en que sahuman {71m1-19}
   incensario {71m2-23}
   encenssario {55m-7}
   sahumador en que sahuman {55m-18}


  ;popochhuique , otla.
   they spread fragrance  << 8  4>>


  ;popochhuiqui , tla.
   turificador, o incensador {71m2-23}


  ;popochilitiez , tonmotla.
   ___  << 6 11>>


  ;popochina , qui.
   they shred it fine  << 2  9>>


  ;popochinalli , tla.
   hilazas para herida {71m1-13}
   hilazas para herida {55m-11}


  ;popochintli , tla.
   hilazas para herida {71m1-13}
   hilazas para herida {55m-11}


  ;popochquiahuayo.
   having openings  <<11 26>>


  ;popochquio.
   ___  <<11 19>>


  ;popochtecati.
   he becomes a merchant  << 4  1>>


  ;popochtli.
   perfumes {71m1-17}
   perfumes {71m2-14}
   perfumes {55m-15}


  ;popochuia , nitla.
   perfumar {55m-15}


  ;popochuilo.
   incense is offered  << 2  3>>


  ;popotzahui.
   ___  <<11 19>>


  ;popotzani , tla.
   humoso lo que haze humo {71m1-13}
   cosa que echa desi mucho humo {71m2-23}
   humoso lo que haze humo {55m-11}


  ;popotzaquiaya , qui.
   they stuffed it in, they crammed it in  << 4  5>>


  ;popotzauhtoc.
   ___  << 4  4>>


  ;popotzoa , nino.
   hinchar los carrillos {71m1-13}
   hinchar los carrillos apretarse la gente o espessarse las yeruas {71m2-14}


  ;popotzoani , mo.
   hinchador tal {71m1-13}


  ;popotzoliztli , ne.
   hinchadura assi {71m1-13}


  ;popotzolo , ne.
   there is crowding  << 4 11>>
   there is crowding together  << 2 11>>


  ;popotzoqui , mo.
   hinchador tal {71m1-13}


  ;popoxactic.
   ___  <<10  5>>


  ;popoxacuahuia , te.
   ___  << 4 10>>


  ;popoxacuahuique , te.
   ___  << 4 10>>


  ;popoxalhuia , nitetla.
   mollir la tierra a otro {71m1-15}
   mullirle la tierra a otro {71m1-16}
   baruechar o mollir a otro la tierra {71m2-14}


  ;popoxalhuiani , tetla.
   mollidor tal {71m1-15}


  ;popoxalhuiliztli , tetla.
   mollidura assi {71m1-15}


  ;popoxani , mo.
   one who is energetic  <<10  1>>


  ;popoxcahui.
   it becomes mouldy  << 4 11>>


  ;popoxcanenequi , xonmo.
   ___  << 6 16>>


  ;popoxiuhtehua , xi.
   ___  << 6  8>>


  ;popoxiuhtehua.
   ___  << 4  1>>


  ;popoxiuhteuh.
   ___  <<10  3>>


  ;popoxoa , mo.
   quando se torna a^cauar la tierra que esta ya labrada {71m2-10}


  ;popoxoa , nitla.
   amollentar la tierra {71m1-2}
   baruechar {71m1-3}
   hornaguear la tierra {71m1-13}
   mullir la tierra {71m1-16}
   baruechar o mollir la tierra {71m2-14}
   amollentar tierra {55m-00}
   baruechar la eredad {55m-2}
   hornaguear la tierra {55m-11}


  ;popoxoa , tla.
   he hoes  << 4 12>>
   he hoes  <<10  3>>


  ;popoxoani , tla.
   amollentador assi {71m1-2}
   baruechador {71m2-23}


  ;popoxolizpan , tla.
   tiempo de baruechar, o de amollentar la tierra, quando la desieruan y
        labran la postrera vez, antes que este el mayz del todo sazonado
        {71m2-23}


  ;popoxoliztli , tla.
   amollentadura de tierra {71m1-2}
   baruecho {71m1-3}
   el acto de baruechar &c {71m2-23}
   baruecho {55m-2}


  ;popoxolli , tla.
   amollentada tierra {71m1-2}
   baruechado {71m1-3}
   tierra baruechada assi {71m2-23}
   amollentada tierra {55m-00}
   baruechado {55m-2}
   ___  << 7  2>>


  ;popoxolo , tla.
   tiempo que todos baruechan {71m2-23}


  ;popoxoqui , tla.
   amollentador assi {71m1-2}


  ;popoxotiuh , mo.
   ___  << 2 14>>


  ;popoxtic.
   energetic  <<10  3>>


  ;popoxtli.
   energetic  <<10  2>>


  ;popozac.
   ___  <<10  3>>


  ;popozactic.
   hinchado a tolondrones {71m1-13}
   hinchada cosa o llena de tolondrones {71m2-14}
   hinchado a tolondrones {55m-11}


  ;popozahua , ni.
   hincharse en esta manera {71m1-13}
   henchirse de hinchazones o de tolondrones {71m2-14}
   hincharse en esta manera {55m-11}


  ;popozahua , nino.
   alentar poco el que esta al cabo {71m1-2}
   alentar poco el que esta al cabo {55m-00}


  ;popozahua.
   she becomes swollen  << 3  2>>
   he swells up  <<11  8>>
   it swells up  <<11 14>>


  ;popozahualiztli.
   hinchazon desta manera {71m1-13}
   hinchazon desta manera {71m2-14}
   hinchazon desta manera {55m-11}
   swelling  << 3  3>>


  ;popozapil.
   ___  <<10  1>>


  ;popozauhtoc , mo.
   ___  << 7  2>>


  ;popozauhtoc , za quem mo.
   estar alguno medio muerto, agonizando y para espirar {71m2-3}


  ;popozoca , ni.
   heruir {71m1-13}
   heruir {55m-11}


  ;popozoca , tla.
   it bubbles up  << 2 11>>


  ;popozoca.
   heruir la olla, ocosa asi {71m2-14}
   it boils up  << 2  5>>


  ;popozocac.
   espumosa cosa {71m1-11}
   espumosa cosa {55m-9}


  ;popozocani.
   heruiente cosa {71m1-13}
   heruiente cosa {55m-11}


  ;popozocaticac.
   estar heruiendola olla {71m2-14}


  ;popozocatimani.
   estar heruiendola olla {71m2-14}


  ;popozocatoc.
   it lies bursting, it is bursting forth  << 4  4>>

  ;popozoctli.
   irritable  <<10  3>>


  ;popozonallalia , tla.
   ___  <<10  5>>


  ;popozonallo , i.
   its bubbles, its foam  <<11 22>>


  ;popozoni , ni.
   estomagarse enojarse {71m1-11}
   enojarse mucho {71m2-14}
   estomagarse enojarse {55m-9}


  ;popozoni.
   estomagado {71m1-11}
   heruir mucho la olla {71m2-14}
   estomagado {55m-9}
   it fluffs up  <<11 19>>
   it is bushy, it is fluffy  <<11 20>>


  ;popozoniliztli.
   heruor assi {71m1-13}
   heruor de olla o enojo grande {71m2-14}
   heruor assi {55m-11}


  ;popozonini.
   it is accustomed to boiling up  <<10 12>>
   it is bushy  <<11 20>>


  ;popozontimani.
   ___  <<11 11>>


  ;popozontoc.
   it lies fluffed up  <<11 19>>


  ;popozoquillo , cenca huel.
   espumosa cosa llena de espuma {71m1-11}
   espumosa cosa llena de espuma {55m-9}


  ;popozoquillo.
   espumosa cosa {71m1-11}
   cosa que tiene espuma {71m2-14}
   espumosa cosa {55m-9}
   having foam  <<11 24>>


  ;popozoquillotlaza , nitla.
   espumar, quitar la espuma {71m1-11}
   espumar la olla o cosa semejante {71m2-14}
   quitar la espuma {55m-9}


  ;popoztecca , to.
   our breakings  <<10  8>>


  ;popoztecque , ti.
   we broke  <<10  8>>


  ;popoztecqui.
   coxo del pie, o dela espinilla, por la tener quebrada, opalo quebrado en
        muchas partes. &c {71m2-14}
   coxo de espinilla quebrada o pie quebrado {55m-4}
   broken  <<10  4>>


  ;popoztectihuetzi.
   it suddenly breaks to pieces  << 2  6>>
   it falls broken to pieces  <<11 11>>


  ;popoztequi , nitla.
   quebrar muchas vezes palos, o cosas semejantes {71m2-14}


  ;popoztequi.
   it breaks up  << 5  3>>
   each one breaks  <<10  7>>
   it breaks repeatedly  <<11 11>>


  ;tamalpopoxcauhqui.
   moldy tamale  << 4 11>>


  ;telpopochpipil.
   small boys  << 2  6>>
   boys  << 2 10>>
   youths  << 4 11>>


  ;telpopochtequihuaque.
   young seasoned warriors  <<12  4>>


  ;telpopochti.
   youths  << 2 10>>


  ;telpopochtin , an.
   you [pl.] are youths  << 6 11>>


  ;telpopochtin.
   youths  << 2 10>>


  ;telpopochtli.
   youths  << 2  7>>


  ;telpopochtotonti.
   boys  << 2  6>>

  ;telpopochtzitzinti.
   youths  << 6  9>>
   small boys  << 9  2>>


  ;telpopotzitzinti.
   young boys  <<12  6>>


  ;temetzpopozoquillotl.
   espuma de plomo {71m1-11}
   escoria o espuma de plomo {71m2-16}
   espuma de plomo {55m-9}


  ;tepopozoctli.
   <lo mesmo es que tepozoctli> {71m2-17}


  ;tepopozoquillo , in.
   their foam  <<12  3>>


  ;tetempopozoquillo.
   having foam at their mouths  << 4  2>>


  ;tlalpopoxoa , qui.
   ___  <<10  4>>


  ;topopochahui.
   ___  <<10  7>>


  ;xippopoxoani , tla.
   escardador tal {71m2-25}


  ;xippopoxoliztli , tla.
   el acto de escardar ortaliza assi, o escardadura {71m2-25}


  ;xippopoxolli , tla.
   ortaliza escardada {71m2-25}


  ;xiuhpopoxoa , nitla.
   escardar {71m1-10}
   deseruar {71m2-27}
   escardar {55m-8}


  ;xiuhpopoxoani , tla.
   escardador el que escarda {71m1-10}
   el que escarda o desierua algo {71m2-25}
   escardador el que escarda {55m-8}


  ;xiuhpopoxoliztli , tla.
   escardadura {71m1-10}
   el acto de escardar assi {71m2-25}
   escardadura {55m-8}


  ;xiuhpopoxolli , tla.
   escardado {71m1-10}
   cosa escardada o deseruada {71m2-25}
   escardado {55m-8}


  ;yacacuitlapopotz.
   mocoso,lleno de mocos {71m1-15}
   mocoso {71m2-5}
   mocoso lleno de mocos {55m-14}


  ;yellelpopozahua.
   estomagado {55m-9}


  ;yollopopozahua.
   estomagado {71m1-11}






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From sylvia at famsi.org  Thu Mar  1 19:17:14 2007
From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:17:14 -0500
Subject: Reports/Informes--Amatlan, Ciudad Vieja, Machaquila, Seibal,
 Santa Maria Zapotitlan, Kuluba, Chan Chich
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2007.141714.0500.>

Hello Mesoamericanists,

Our newest grantee research reports at FAMSI website include:

Traditional Medicine Among the Nahua:
Contemporary and Ancient Medicinal Plants (2005)
by Vania Smith-Oka.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05063/index.html

The End of Pre-Columbian Pipil Civilization, Ciudad Vieja,
El Salvador (2003)
by William R. Fowler.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/02091/index.html

Ninth-Century Stelae of Machaquila and Seibal (2002)
by Bryan R. Just.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/01050/index.html


Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos
del Ingles al Español:

El Proyecto de Arqueologia Historica de La Chontalpa, Oaxaca (2005)
por Danny Zborover.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05038es/index.html

Temporada de Campo 2001 del Proyecto Arqueologico Kuluba (2001)
por J. Gregory Smith.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/00051es/index.html

El Proyecto Arqueologico Chan Chich (1997)
por Brett A. Houk.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/97004es/index.html

Saludos,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Mar  2 06:22:12 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 01:22:12 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070301140403.e6tmqf7r40s4s8g4@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.012212.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Listeros,

   I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse than 
anyone else's.  I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions on 
the ones that I have included below.  Actually, this is a small sample 
of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are troubling me 
-- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.

   I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe


The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".

Most items are from Molina.

I have been explicit about some of my doubts...



** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?

  ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le rin~en.
     71m1-17
  ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
    todos en general.  71m2-2
  ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
    general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19



** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what does
   that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?

  atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10



** I can't account for the "x"

  axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7



** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?

  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1



** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua", but...

  chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
  chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
     55m-6
  chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6



** can this be related to "nequi"?
   ...but what is the "chi-"?

  chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16



** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive marker,
   but what is the "o"?
  ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16



** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
   when does "-ni" get lost like this?

  pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14



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From brokaw at buffalo.edu  Fri Mar  2 12:23:55 2007
From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:23:55 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302012212.v9nui4fpag404s88@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.072355.0500.>

Hi Joe,
I assume that the nitlatilia is related to "maatilia," meaning "to be
elastic." Perhaps the notion of elasticity is related conceptually to
the quality of water as being fluid, in motion, etc. So "atia" meaning
"to become water or water-like" means "to melt" but maybe also more
generally to the idea of taking on any of the qualities of water, one of
which being its fluidity/elasticity, its ability to change shape?

And the "pozolatl," wouldn't that be pozolli + atl?

Galen






Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> Listeros,
> 
>    I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse
> than 
> anyone else's.  I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions on
> 
> the ones that I have included below.  Actually, this is a small
> sample 
> of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are troubling
> me 
> -- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.
> 
>    I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.
> 
> Iztayohmeh,
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".
> 
> Most items are from Molina.
> 
> I have been explicit about some of my doubts...
> 
> 
> 
> ** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?
> 
>   ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le
> rin~en.
>      71m1-17
>   ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
>     todos en general.  71m2-2
>   ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que
> en
>     general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19
> 
> 
> 
> ** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what does
>    that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?
> 
>   atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
> 
> 
> 
> ** I can't account for the "x"
> 
>   axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
> 
> 
> 
> ** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?
> 
>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
> 
> 
> 
> ** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua", but...
> 
>   chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
>   chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
>      55m-6
>   chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
> 
> 
> 
> ** can this be related to "nequi"?
>    ...but what is the "chi-"?
> 
>   chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
> 
> 
> 
> ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive
> marker,
>    but what is the "o"?
>   ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
> 
> 
> 
> ** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
>    when does "-ni" get lost like this?
> 
>   pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
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From clayton at indiana.edu  Fri Mar  2 14:23:13 2007
From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:23:13 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302012212.v9nui4fpag404s88@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.092313.0500.CLAYTON@INDIANA.EDU>

Joe,
     I'm pretty sure that ayotzincuepa corresponds to "turn turtle" in 
English (the summersault that kids do when they crouch, put their head 
on the floor then push with their feet so that their backside goes over 
their head and they end up on their back). Maria Moliner has for 
voltear " dar vueltas a una cosa, particularmente, haciendo cada vez 
que quede arriba lo que estaba abajo...", so a:yo:tl-tzi:ntli-cuepa. 
Why this should be "al modo de espan~a, I have no idea.
     Incidentally, the Vocabulario trilingu"e has it three times.

     Mary

Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> Listeros,
>
>   I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse than
> anyone else's.  I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions on
> the ones that I have included below.  Actually, this is a small sample
> of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are troubling me
> -- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.
>
>   I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe
>
>
> The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".
>
> Most items are from Molina.
>
> I have been explicit about some of my doubts...
>
>
>
> ** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?
>
>  ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le rin~en.
>     71m1-17
>  ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
>    todos en general.  71m2-2
>  ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
>    general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19
>
>
>
> ** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what does
>   that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?
>
>  atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
>
>
>
> ** I can't account for the "x"
>
>  axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
>
>
>
> ** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?
>
>  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
>  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
>
>
>
> ** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua", but...
>
>  chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
>  chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
>     55m-6
>  chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
>
>
>
> ** can this be related to "nequi"?
>   ...but what is the "chi-"?
>
>  chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
>
>
>
> ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive marker,
>   but what is the "o"?
>  ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
>
>
>
> ** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
>   when does "-ni" get lost like this?
>
>  pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de  Fri Mar  2 14:42:37 2007
From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:42:37 +0100
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <1172838235.45e8175b11795@mail2.buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.154237.0100.H.KAMMLER@EM.UNIFRANKFURT.DE>

A mind boggling list indeed.

>>   axtic.  moist; watery.
Maybe the archaic root variant /a:l/ of /a:/ (like in /a:ltepe:tl/) 
developed an additional variant by way of devoicing the /l/, like [a:l] 
 > [a:L] > *[a:?]

Karttunen has /a:x=in/ for a certain insect and a medical substance 
(liquid?) that it secretes.

>>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
>>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
Even the Spanish part is a riddle to me. Would that be a military or 
chess term? "flipping like a turtle" "changing sides like pumpkins"?

>> ** can this be related to "nequi"?
>>    ...but what is the "chi-"?
>>
>>   chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16

There's a risk of comparing apples with pears but modern Oapan (and 
some neighbors) has that clitic too:
chi pite:ntsi:n "pretty small"
chi kwaltsi:n "really pretty"

tichi amigos yeskeh "we will be real good friends" (alligator talking 
to Old Burro trying to convince him to carry him to the river)


>> ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive
>> marker,
>>    but what is the "o"?
>>   ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16

It might be connected to /o'tli/ "way", though this has the possessed 
form /o'wi/ but the root is /o'/ and in a body part term it may have 
taken on a different morphological behavior. Many "ifs" involved 
again...

>>   pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14

I'd spontaneously agree with Galen. /posolli/ is basically "mayz 
cocido" (Karttunen references it with /poso:ni/)

Sa:n o:me nocentavitoh o:nikinkalakti ;-)

Henry

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From brokaw at buffalo.edu  Fri Mar  2 15:18:21 2007
From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 10:18:21 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302154237.ilq497y79c0kwcgs@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.101821.0500.>

As I was reading Henry's comments, another idea for chinequiztli occured
to me. Could this "chi" be from the "chichi" associatd with suckling and
milk. If I am not mistaken, even today in Mexico "chichi" can refer to a
woman's breasts. So, might this mean literally something like "desire
for milk from suckling" and extended to refer more generally to whining
and fussing?

Galen


Quoting Henry Kammler <h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de>:

> A mind boggling list indeed.
> 
> >>   axtic.  moist; watery.
> Maybe the archaic root variant /a:l/ of /a:/ (like in /a:ltepe:tl/) 
> developed an additional variant by way of devoicing the /l/, like
> [a:l] 
>  > [a:L] > *[a:?]
> 
> Karttunen has /a:x=in/ for a certain insect and a medical substance 
> (liquid?) that it secretes.
> 
> >>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
> >>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a. 
> 71m2-1
> Even the Spanish part is a riddle to me. Would that be a military or
> 
> chess term? "flipping like a turtle" "changing sides like pumpkins"?
> 
> >> ** can this be related to "nequi"?
> >>    ...but what is the "chi-"?
> >>
> >>   chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
> 
> There's a risk of comparing apples with pears but modern Oapan (and 
> some neighbors) has that clitic too:
> chi pite:ntsi:n "pretty small"
> chi kwaltsi:n "really pretty"
> 
> tichi amigos yeskeh "we will be real good friends" (alligator talking
> 
> to Old Burro trying to convince him to carry him to the river)
> 
> 
> >> ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive
> >> marker,
> >>    but what is the "o"?
> >>   ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
> 
> It might be connected to /o'tli/ "way", though this has the possessed
> 
> form /o'wi/ but the root is /o'/ and in a body part term it may have
> 
> taken on a different morphological behavior. Many "ifs" involved 
> again...
> 
> >>   pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14
> 
> I'd spontaneously agree with Galen. /posolli/ is basically "mayz 
> cocido" (Karttunen references it with /poso:ni/)
> 
> Sa:n o:me nocentavitoh o:nikinkalakti ;-)
> 
> Henry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From jonathan.amith at yale.edu  Fri Mar  2 15:47:41 2007
From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 10:47:41 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302012212.v9nui4fpag404s88@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.104741.0500.>

Hi Joe,

Interesting problems... kept me away from transcribing for some time!


ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le rin~en.
     71m1-17
ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
    todos en general.  71m2-2
ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
    general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19

The fact that all are given as reflexives is interesting. Molina is usually
careful when there are reflexive and nonreflexive uses of a transitive verb to
give both. My first impression is that the first element is from a?wa the
transitive verb ?to scold? with vowel weakening of final /a/ to /i/.
Someone with a knowledge of historical linguistics might comment on this.
However, such weakening is not uncommon in applicative and causative
derivations (e.g., no:chilia from no:tsa; e:witia from e:wa). Another
possibility is a valency increase (applicative; see Launey 1992, p. 188) from
a?wa to a?wia and subsequent compounding. There are some verbs that end in
?wa that have such valency increases (ka:wa > ka:wia)

atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
I can only assume this is a metaphoric extension of the meaning of ?atl? as
?guerra?, also in Molina. Therefore it would be a verbalization. Note that
it is given with a tla- prefix, which would suggest that the object is not a
specific human but rather a general action (e.g., tla-tla:katilia, where
tla:katilia means ?to give birth to?).


axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
There are a series of deverbal forms that have /x/. Many are from verbs 
that end
in ?ni (kwalaxtli, cf. Launey 1992:281). However, in this case it probably
derives from a:+ya and then the participial form a(:)tik. Cf. a:laxtik from
a:lawa, etc.


ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
Yes, from ?turtle?. Modern Guerrero has ?a:yo:tsi:nkwepa (a:yo:tsi:nkopa;
note the two initial long vowels) meaning ?to turn somersaults/forward
rolls? Perhaps related to the turtle action in withdrawing its head into its
body. When one does a forward roll one tucks ones head into ones body.

chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
     55m-6
chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
I would go for chik- meaning ?off to one side? In Guerrero cho has an
intensifying sense of doing something intensely or constantly. e.g., cho
tlakwahtikah / cho tlakwahtok Thus a riddle that refers to a cuajiote (Bursera
sp.) with peeling bark asks nochi to:nahli cho tlake:nxixi:ntok. There is also
an intensifier that is added to many verbs chi:- or chi-. E.g., chipatla:wa
?to get ripped wide open leaving a gaping hole? or something to the effect.
However, I think in this case chik- is from the ?soslayo? meaning
(chikoki:stok). Launey (1992:272) discusses denominal verbs with ?oa but
these are intransitives. Therefore the problem of the second elements kaloa,
kalolli, kana:wa is more problematic.

chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
Here perhaps the intensifier use of chi- or chiki- as a verbal prefix. Or
perhaps related to chi- as a palatalized diminutive. Who knows?

ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
This might be related to an inanimate possessor (or part/whole 
possession). Thus
i:kal is ?his/her house? while i:kallo is ?its roof? (note that kalli
can mean ?shelter? or ?overhang? cf. kahkalli for ?toldo?. Thus one
would perhaps have i:xteyo:tl, possessed as ti:xteyo(w). I am unsure of the
nature of the ?w possessed marker on ?yo final stems. Often it is not
there. The nature of ?yo possessed forms needs a lot of work.

po:so:la:tl, yes from po:so:l-li + a:tl


Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> Listeros,
>
>   I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse than
> anyone else's.  I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions on
> the ones that I have included below.  Actually, this is a small sample
> of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are troubling me
> -- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.
>
>   I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe
>
>
> The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".
>
> Most items are from Molina.
>
> I have been explicit about some of my doubts...
>
>
>
> ** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?
>
>  ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le rin~en.
>     71m1-17
>  ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
>    todos en general.  71m2-2
>  ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
>    general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19
>
>
>
> ** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what does
>   that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?
>
>  atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
>
>
>
> ** I can't account for the "x"
>
>  axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
>
>
>
> ** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?
>
>  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
>  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
>
>
>
> ** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua", but...
>
>  chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
>  chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
>     55m-6
>  chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
>
>
>
> ** can this be related to "nequi"?
>   ...but what is the "chi-"?
>
>  chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
>
>
>
> ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive marker,
>   but what is the "o"?
>  ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
>
>
>
> ** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
>   when does "-ni" get lost like this?
>
>  pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



-- 
Jonathan D. Amith
Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages
Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago
(O) 717-337-6795
(H) 717-338-1255
Mail to:
Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology
Gettysburg College
Campus Box 412
300 N. Washington Street
Gettysburg, PA  17325
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http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From chelodona at argentina.com  Fri Mar  2 18:51:43 2007
From: chelodona at argentina.com (Chelo Dona)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:51:43 -0300
Subject: xinechpalehuican
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.155143.0300.CHELODONA@ARGENTINA.COM>

 Joe, listeros:
I' cannot understand very much nahuatl, or english. Just googling, I
find a cup of things. I wonder if it help.
>>From what D.K. Jordan call "Inadequate Nahuatl Reference Grammar",
-ahui = non-productive transitivizing suffix 
(http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahugram.html)
Another view: I think etymology of other words like ahuitzotl or
ahuilnema have no conexion with your question?
By the way, if this communication makes no sense, just delete it,
moderadores. I'm not angry with my ex ¿girlfriend? (na), so I will
understand you too. 
Marcelo Donadello
----- Mensaje original -----
Fecha: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 01:22:12 -0500
De: "Campbell, R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Nahuat-l] xinechpalehuican


I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse than
anyone else's. I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions on
the ones that I have included below. Actually, this is a small sample
of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are troubling
me
-- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.

I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe


The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".

Most items are from Molina.

I have been explicit about some of my doubts...



** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?

ahuitoca =nin. pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le
rin~en.
71m1-17
ahuitoca =nin. tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
todos en general. 71m2-2
ahuitoca =nino. sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
general se amonesta atodos. 71m1-19



** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what does
that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?

atilia =nitla. frecher el arco. 55m-10



** I can't account for the "x"

axtic. moist; watery. b.10 f.7



** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?

ayotzincuepa =nin. boltear al modo de espan~a. 55m-2
ayotzincuepa =nin. boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a. 71m2-1



** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua", but...

chiccaloa =nonte. echar por fuerza de casa a alguno. 55m-6
chiccalolli =tla. echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
55m-6
chiccanahua =nite. echar por fuerza de casa a alguno. 55m-6



** can this be related to "nequi"?
...but what is the "chi-"?

chinequiztli. nin~o que llora mucho. 71m1-16



** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive
marker,
but what is the "o"?
ixteouh =to. nin~a del ojo. 71m1-16



** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
when does "-ni" get lost like this?

pozolatl. beuida de mayz cozido. 71m2-14



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From brokaw at buffalo.edu  Fri Mar  2 19:28:49 2007
From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:28:49 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302104741.k9b6074hcsgg0w40@www.mail.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.142849.0500.>

Like Jonathan, I'm using Joe's list to distract me from less interesting
things that I have to do, but I'm doing it throughout the day as an
excuse to take a short break whenever I get bogged down. So, here is
another idea. I'm surprised it didn't occur to me the first time I
looked at the list.

In the case of tixteouh, it seems to me like the most probable
interpretation would be:

ixtli + teotl, which when possessed would produce tixteouh.

Expressions like "teotlac" use teotl to refer to the sun. Perhaps the
term could be extended to refer to the iris of the eye when accompanied
by ixtli. This would explain the "o" very nicely, and it makes sense. I
can't lay any claim to a Mesoamerican world view, but this type of
metaphoric construction seems to be characteristic of Nahuatl linguistic
practice.

Galen







Quoting jonathan.amith at yale.edu:

> Hi Joe,
> 
> Interesting problems... kept me away from transcribing for some
> time!
> 
> 
> ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le
> rin~en.
>      71m1-17
> ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
>     todos en general.  71m2-2
> ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
>     general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19
> 
> The fact that all are given as reflexives is interesting. Molina is
> usually
> careful when there are reflexive and nonreflexive uses of a
> transitive verb to
> give both. My first impression is that the first element is from a?wa
> the
> transitive verb ?to scold? with vowel weakening of final /a/ to /i/.
> Someone with a knowledge of historical linguistics might comment on
> this.
> However, such weakening is not uncommon in applicative and causative
> derivations (e.g., no:chilia from no:tsa; e:witia from e:wa).
> Another
> possibility is a valency increase (applicative; see Launey 1992, p.
> 188) from
> a?wa to a?wia and subsequent compounding. There are some verbs that
> end in
> ?wa that have such valency increases (ka:wa > ka:wia)
> 
> atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
> I can only assume this is a metaphoric extension of the meaning of
> ?atl? as
> ?guerra?, also in Molina. Therefore it would be a verbalization. Note
> that
> it is given with a tla- prefix, which would suggest that the object
> is not a
> specific human but rather a general action (e.g., tla-tla:katilia,
> where
> tla:katilia means ?to give birth to?).
> 
> 
> axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
> There are a series of deverbal forms that have /x/. Many are from
> verbs 
> that end
> in ?ni (kwalaxtli, cf. Launey 1992:281). However, in this case it
> probably
> derives from a:+ya and then the participial form a(:)tik. Cf.
> a:laxtik from
> a:lawa, etc.
> 
> 
> ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
> ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
> Yes, from ?turtle?. Modern Guerrero has ?a:yo:tsi:nkwepa
> (a:yo:tsi:nkopa;
> note the two initial long vowels) meaning ?to turn
> somersaults/forward
> rolls? Perhaps related to the turtle action in withdrawing its head
> into its
> body. When one does a forward roll one tucks ones head into ones
> body.
> 
> chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
> chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
>      55m-6
> chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
> I would go for chik- meaning ?off to one side? In Guerrero cho has
> an
> intensifying sense of doing something intensely or constantly. e.g.,
> cho
> tlakwahtikah / cho tlakwahtok Thus a riddle that refers to a cuajiote
> (Bursera
> sp.) with peeling bark asks nochi to:nahli cho tlake:nxixi:ntok.
> There is also
> an intensifier that is added to many verbs chi:- or chi-. E.g.,
> chipatla:wa
> ?to get ripped wide open leaving a gaping hole? or something to the
> effect.
> However, I think in this case chik- is from the ?soslayo? meaning
> (chikoki:stok). Launey (1992:272) discusses denominal verbs with ?oa
> but
> these are intransitives. Therefore the problem of the second elements
> kaloa,
> kalolli, kana:wa is more problematic.
> 
> chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
> Here perhaps the intensifier use of chi- or chiki- as a verbal
> prefix. Or
> perhaps related to chi- as a palatalized diminutive. Who knows?
> 
> ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
> This might be related to an inanimate possessor (or part/whole 
> possession). Thus
> i:kal is ?his/her house? while i:kallo is ?its roof? (note that
> kalli
> can mean ?shelter? or ?overhang? cf. kahkalli for ?toldo?. Thus one
> would perhaps have i:xteyo:tl, possessed as ti:xteyo(w). I am unsure
> of the
> nature of the ?w possessed marker on ?yo final stems. Often it is
> not
> there. The nature of ?yo possessed forms needs a lot of work.
> 
> po:so:la:tl, yes from po:so:l-li + a:tl
> 
> 
> Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:
> 
> > Listeros,
> >
> >   I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse
> than
> > anyone else's.  I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions
> on
> > the ones that I have included below.  Actually, this is a small
> sample
> > of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are
> troubling me
> > -- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.
> >
> >   I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.
> >
> > Iztayohmeh,
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> > The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".
> >
> > Most items are from Molina.
> >
> > I have been explicit about some of my doubts...
> >
> >
> >
> > ** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?
> >
> >  ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le
> rin~en.
> >     71m1-17
> >  ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
> >    todos en general.  71m2-2
> >  ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que
> en
> >    general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19
> >
> >
> >
> > ** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what
> does
> >   that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?
> >
> >  atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
> >
> >
> >
> > ** I can't account for the "x"
> >
> >  axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
> >
> >
> >
> > ** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?
> >
> >  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
> >  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
> >
> >
> >
> > ** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua",
> but...
> >
> >  chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
> >  chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
> >     55m-6
> >  chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
> >
> >
> >
> > ** can this be related to "nequi"?
> >   ...but what is the "chi-"?
> >
> >  chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
> >
> >
> >
> > ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive
> marker,
> >   but what is the "o"?
> >  ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
> >
> >
> >
> > ** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
> >   when does "-ni" get lost like this?
> >
> >  pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jonathan D. Amith
> Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages
> Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University
> of Chicago
> (O) 717-337-6795
> (H) 717-338-1255
> Mail to:
> Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology
> Gettysburg College
> Campus Box 412
> 300 N. Washington Street
> Gettysburg, PA  17325
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Sat Mar  3 02:06:30 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 21:06:30 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302154237.ilq497y79c0kwcgs@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.210630.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Galen, Henry, Jonathan, and Marcelo [and Mary |8-) ]....

   Thanks a million for the all the time and thought you put into 
today's suggestions!!  I will send an update on what I'm able to 
integrate -- along with
further thoughts.

   In the meantime, Jonathan's idea on "ixteouh, to" pushed me to take 
a look at items that I had like that and identify two more of them (-yo 
+ -uh).
Here is the list at present:

icacmecayouh. his sandal thong.  FC.

icnopillouh. his gains.   FC.

incacmecayouh. their sandal thongs.  FC.

inchichihualayouh. their milk.   FC.

intlamecayouh. .   FC.

intonacayouh. their maize, their corn.  FC.

iteixayopapachocauh. its suppressor of tears.   FC.

itlaquechpanyouh. .   FC.

itonacayouh. his food.   FC.

itonacayouh. his sustenance, his product of the soil.   FC.

itzcuimpatiyouh. his price of dogs.  FC.

motlalticpacayouh. .   FC.

motonacayouh. your sustenance, your food.   FC.

toyaoyouh. our battle.   FC.

tzoyouh =to. seso el saluonor.   55m-18.
   (seso is a misprint for sieso, alphabetized under "sie..."

tzoyouh =to. sieso el saluonor.   71m1-19.

yacayouh =notla. primogenito.   71m1-17.

Again, thank you.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe


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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Mon Mar  5 15:55:54 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:55:54 -0800
Subject: Pronouncing that darned "X"
Message-ID: <MON.5.MAR.2007.075554.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

I received some very nice help the last time I asked about Xipe- 
Totec.  But this morning I'm writing Excan Tlatoloyan and going...
"X"-Can... nooooo.
Mexico (ji!)
Ejican Tlatoloyan?  Accent on the ji?

Xolo-Itzquitle
sholo or solo? Or scholo?, but not jolo, is this correct?
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From jonathan.amith at yale.edu  Mon Mar  5 18:09:46 2007
From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:09:46 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
Message-ID: <MON.5.MAR.2007.130946.0500.>

Hi,

Michel Launey would know more about these. In his 1992 book he discusses the
possessive forms of abstract nouns that end in -yo:tl (pp. 96ff) and
notes that
they do not accept the -uh (i.e., -w) possessed suffix.

However, there is perhaps something going on and maybe it is necessary to
disguish
- noun stem + yo (what I would call inanimate possession, which is extended to
certain body parts as a secondary meaning)
- [noun stem + yo:tl = abstract noun] + w (replacing the absolutive)
This would
be used with human possessors of abstract noun, at least sometimes.

This might have been something what was occurring.  But it is clearly not
completely pervasive (cf. te:nyo:tl > i:te:nyo 'his/her fame' and not
?i:te:nyo:w.

But neverthess, the forms below are all sorts of secondary human possession of
an intrinsic part-whole possession. Thus

cacmecayotl can also be expressed as cactli i:mecayo
chi:chiwa:la:yo:tl can also be expressed as chi:chi:wa:lli i:a:yo

Other cases are different. But there seems to be something interesting with the
yo+uh that I am not entirely familiar with.

best, jda

Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> Galen, Henry, Jonathan, and Marcelo [and Mary |8-) ]....
>
>   Thanks a million for the all the time and thought you put into
> today's suggestions!!  I will send an update on what I'm able to
> integrate -- along with
> further thoughts.
>
>   In the meantime, Jonathan's idea on "ixteouh, to" pushed me to take
> a look at items that I had like that and identify two more of them (-yo
> + -uh).
> Here is the list at present:
>
> icacmecayouh. his sandal thong.  FC.
>
> icnopillouh. his gains.   FC.
>
> incacmecayouh. their sandal thongs.  FC.
>
> inchichihualayouh. their milk.   FC.
>
> intlamecayouh. .   FC.
>
> intonacayouh. their maize, their corn.  FC.
>
> iteixayopapachocauh. its suppressor of tears.   FC.
>
> itlaquechpanyouh. .   FC.
>
> itonacayouh. his food.   FC.
>
> itonacayouh. his sustenance, his product of the soil.   FC.
>
> itzcuimpatiyouh. his price of dogs.  FC.
>
> motlalticpacayouh. .   FC.
>
> motonacayouh. your sustenance, your food.   FC.
>
> toyaoyouh. our battle.   FC.
>
> tzoyouh =to. seso el saluonor.   55m-18.
>   (seso is a misprint for sieso, alphabetized under "sie..."
>
> tzoyouh =to. sieso el saluonor.   71m1-19.
>
> yacayouh =notla. primogenito.   71m1-17.
>
> Again, thank you.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



-- 
Jonathan D. Amith
Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages
Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago
(O) 717-337-6795
(H) 717-338-1255
Mail to:
Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology
Gettysburg College
Campus Box 412
300 N. Washington Street
Gettysburg, PA  17325
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Mar  6 02:18:00 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:18:00 -0500
Subject: Pronouncing that darned "X"
In-Reply-To: <0520B42E-6BBD-4D33-B322-8747E3DFB820@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <MON.5.MAR.2007.211800.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

The -x- ALWAYS has the sound value of -sh-

so: Excan is ESH-can
Xolo = SHO-lo
Mexico - me-SHE-co



> I received some very nice help the last time I asked about Xipe-
> Totec.  But this morning I'm writing Excan Tlatoloyan and going...
> "X"-Can... nooooo.
> Mexico (ji!)
> Ejican Tlatoloyan?  Accent on the ji?
>
> Xolo-Itzquitle
> sholo or solo? Or scholo?, but not jolo, is this correct?
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


-- 
John F. Schwaller
President,
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
schwallr at potsdam.edu


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From amoxtli at earthlink.net  Sun Mar  4 22:09:39 2007
From: amoxtli at earthlink.net (Walter Koenig)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:09:39 -0800
Subject: Mesoamerican Codices
Message-ID: <SUN.4.MAR.2007.140939.0800.AMOXTLI@EARTHLINK.NET>

Greetings,

I am looking for a web site or publication which lists the pre- 
Conquest Mesoamerican Codices, their approximate place of origin and  
age, their present location, and their content i.e. history,  
divinatory almanac etc.

Thank you for your help.

Best Wishes,

Walter O. Koenig
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From brokaw at buffalo.edu  Tue Mar  6 12:11:11 2007
From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:11:11 -0500
Subject: Mesoamerican Codices
In-Reply-To: <1BBEEB73-E992-40BB-941E-6A1A5967DEA6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.MAR.2007.071111.0500.>

Dear Walter,
A good place to start is volume 14 of the Handbook of Middle American
Indians. It contains several chapters that will interest you,
particularly the one titled "A census of Native Middle American
pictorial manuscripts" by John Glass and Donald Robertson.
It was published in 1975, so it is now somewhat dated, but I think it is
still the most comprehensive source for the kind of information you are
looking for.

Galen


Quoting Walter Koenig <amoxtli at earthlink.net>:

> Greetings,
> 
> I am looking for a web site or publication which lists the pre- 
> Conquest Mesoamerican Codices, their approximate place of origin and 
> 
> age, their present location, and their content i.e. history,  
> divinatory almanac etc.
> 
> Thank you for your help.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Walter O. Koenig
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
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From amoxtli at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  6 16:51:56 2007
From: amoxtli at earthlink.net (Walter Koenig)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:51:56 -0800
Subject: Mesoamerican Codices
In-Reply-To: <C212F002.7EE7%gillespie.jeanne@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.MAR.2007.085156.0800.AMOXTLI@EARTHLINK.NET>

Dear fellow Listeros,

Thank you for your replies and suggestions. I am familiar with the  
codices on the FAMSI site and also with the publications of ADEVA,  
though these are not comprehensive and also only give partial  
information I seek.
I know of several lists that are partial, for example, in Anders and  
Jansen: "Schrift und Buch im Alten Mexiko", Gordon Brotherston:  
"Painted books from Mexico : codices in UK collections and the world  
they represent" or the two recent books by Elizabeth Hill Boone. It  
has been years since I consulted the "Handbook of Middle American  
Indians" on the subject and I will do so today as per the suggestion  
of Galen and also "Los códices de México : historias extrordinarias"  
as suggested by Kier. I have access to both.

I am in the process of reviewing some books and realized that there  
is no comprehensive listing of codices that I know of which gives  
their approximate place of origin and age, their present location,  
physical description and content, as well as if they were ever  
reproduced with bibliographical information. I would think such an  
overview would be most helpful to students of Mesoamerican Studies in  
a variety of disciplines. If any of you ever come across anything,  
even partial, please let me know.

I am in the process of compiling such a list for my own purposes and  
if I think it meets the standards for distribution I may submit it.

Thanks again for your kind replies. It was encouraging to receive  
your emails.

Best Wishes,

Walter O. Koenig



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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Mar  7 20:34:48 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:34:48 -0500
Subject: Census of Mesoamerican pictorial
Message-ID: <WED.7.MAR.2007.153448.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

From: "Michel Michel" <mroudyk at hotmail.com>
Subject: Census of Mesoamerican pictorial

Dear colleagues,

Much to my surprise did I receive a message by 
Walter Koenig in which he expresses the lack of a 
"comprehensive listing of codices". Of course, 
such a list does exist. The famous Handbook of 
Middel American Indians, Vol. 14 contains exactly 
that: a Census of Native Middle American 
Pictorial Manuscripts elaborated by John Glass in 
collaboration with Donald Robertson. Although it 
was published in 1974, it still is an invaluable 
work that has been our bible ever since it came out.

Now, as this cencus is more than 30 years old the 
bibliographic references, as well as the 
methodological and theoretical focus of 
ethnohistorical studies has changed considerably. 
It has, therefore, become necessary to update the 
1975 census, an undertaking initiated a couple of 
years ago by Maria Castañeda de la Paz and 
myself. This project is almost finished and has 
been made possible due to the support and 
collaboration of over 40 specialists in pictorial 
studies. The results will be published by the 
University of Texas Press as a Supplement to the Ethnohistorical Sources.

We also decided to include a second volume on 
alphabetical documents in indigenous languages 
which will include articles by renowned 
specialists and an index of known documents. The 
latter, which is still not finished, will be 
presented in a date base and will contain 
references sent to us by numerous colleagues. Of 
course, anybody who has references to 
alphabetical documents written in an Mesoamerican 
language can still sent the information to me 
(mroudyk at hotmail.com or the address given below).

I hope this information is useful to you and will 
avoid people doing the same work over and over again.



Michel R. Oudijk
UNAM
Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas
Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas
Circuito Mario de la Cueva
Ciudad Universitaria, 04510
México, D.F.
Tlf. +52-(55)-5622-7489
Fax: +52-(55)-5622-7496



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From sylvia at famsi.org  Fri Mar 23 17:11:37 2007
From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:11:37 -0400
Subject: Reports/Informes: Yucu Dzaa, Palo Errado, Q'um'arkaj, Tarasca,
 La Queseria, Champoton, Lamanai, El Raizal
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2007.131137.0400.>

Hello Mesoamericanists,

Newest grantee research reports at FAMSI website are as follows:

The Tututepec Archaeological Project (TAP):
Residential Excavations at Yucu Dzaa, a Late Post Classic
Mixtec Capital on the Coast of Oaxaca, Mexico (2005)
by Marc N. Levine.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05031/index.html

Palo Errado Patterned Wetland Mapping Project, Veracruz, Mexico (2005)
by Charles Leonard Frederick Knight.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05066/index.html


Informes en Español:

La configuracion sociopolitica en la ciudad de Q'um'arkaj: los Palacios y
los Nimja o Casas Largas del Chinamit Nija'ib' (2006)
por Micaela Raquel Macario Calgua.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06044es/index.html

Etnohistoria y Arqueologia Tarasca (2006)
por Claudia Espejel Carbajal.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06041es/index.html


Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos
del Ingles al Español:

Proyecto del Balsas Medio: Una Investigacion de la Funcionalidad y
Cronologia de la Ceramica (2006)
por Jennifer Meanwell.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06021es/index.html

La Prospeccion Regional de Asentamientos de Champoton:
Resultados de la Temporada de Campo de 2005
por Jerald D. Ek.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05061es/index.html

Informe de las Investigaciones 1998-1999 sobre la Arqueologia y la
Iconografia de la Fachada de Estuco Policroma de la Estructura N10-28,
en Lamanai, Belice (1999)
por Thomas Mark Shelby.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/98037es/index.html

Centros Politicos de los Antiguos Mayas: Zona Rural de Copan
Relevamiento y Excavacion en El Raizal, Honduras (1998)
por Marcello-Andrea Canuto.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/97038es/index.html

Saludos,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html

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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Fri Mar 23 20:14:13 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:14:13 -0700
Subject: Pregunta de los Codices
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2007.131413.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

In the Ixtlixochitol codex there are three very nice drawings of  
mexica men.  One is Nezahuapilli; the other two I don't know.  I am  
doing a clothing project.  Of course, growing up in México, I am very  
familiar with the enaguas and huipil and quechquemetl of modern times.
I doubt they have changed that much in the 400+ years since the  
conquest; but still, are there any drawings of noble women's clothing  
in the detail the Ixtlixochitl codex has for the pillis?  All I can  
find are the line drawing of the "alegres" and the drawing of  
Malinalli next to Cortes talking to Motecuhzoma.

Thanks for any help,
Kier Salmon, Portland, OR
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From susana at losrancheros.org  Thu Mar  1 00:01:01 2007
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 01:01:01 +0100
Subject: rose flower
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2007.010101.0100.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Thanks a lot Joe and Anthony!! Yes, let's clear out the smoke... that was my
own mistake. I realize now. It is tlapalpopozo and not tlapalpopoco or
popoca... mmm.. but what is "popozo"?? Does it then relate to popotl?  (what
we call in Mexico "popote", or drinking straw, or just straws)  but....
where are the straws in a rose?

That was an incredible list and I really appreciate you taking so much time
to share it with me (us). Huey huey tlazocamati. Actually the other word
that "rings the bell" for me is Cueponcayotl, and would like to know more
about its etimology, if I may.

I don't know if roses were present in Mexico before the Spanish invasion.
I recall the story of Juan Diego and Cuauhtlapcupeuh, but that was a decade
after 1521. So much for the inclusion of the word "castillan" before
xochitl.

Susana


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ANTHONY APPLEYARD" <a.appleyard at btinternet.com>
To: <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 6:54 PM
Subject: [Nahuat-l] rose flower


> --- Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org> wrote:
> > May I take the opportunity to also ask what is the Nahuatl word for
> > the flower "rose"? - Molina says "tlapalpopoco" but I cannot
> > understand what is the role of smoke here!
> > Thank you a lot. Susana Moraleda
>
> Karttunen's dictionary lists these words:-
> - [popo_tl] (plural -meh) = "plant used to make brooms; broom, straw /
> escoba"
> - [tlapal-li]= "dye, color" (must have an owner?)
>
> But "at the colored broom-like plant" would be [tlapalpopo_c].
>
> Were roses native to Mexico?
>
> Citlalyani.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
> __________ NOD32 2085 (20070228) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>

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From idiez at mac.com  Thu Mar  1 01:13:37 2007
From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:13:37 -0600
Subject: "internal silence"
In-Reply-To: <20070228165201.gdmthhj9c4sko844@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2007.191337.0600.IDIEZ@MAC.COM>

Joetzin,
	I don't have my dictionary with me, but might there be a popoz-tli  
(or maybe a misspelled popoxtli, popotz-tli, popoch-tli) that upon  
the addition of -yoh or -yo would go to popozzo(h) / popo?o(h)?
John


On Feb 28, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote:

> Susana,
>
>    First, I think that we should clear away the smoke.   While "poc-"
> is involved in 'smoke' (i.e., "poctli" and "poca"), Molina's  
> entries in
> both
> 1555 and 1571 (Spanish-Nahuatl) have "castillan  
> tlapalpopozo" (where my 'z'
> represents 'c cedilla').  Now the question is: what is the role of the
> "...popozo"?  Mary and I have searched at length and in sneaky ways to
> identify
> it, but no xabon.  There is a "poya:hui" which (if it could lose its
> last *2* syllables could change y > x and then x > z), but no verbs in
> -ya:hui do that.
> ... and "poya:hui" is connected with color.
>
>    We included a list of Molina's words involving "rosa" below.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe and Mary
>
>
> * rosa **
> castillan tlapalpopozo.  rosa flor y mata conocida.  55m 217v
> castillan tlapalpopozo.  rosa flor,y mata conocida.  71m1-105v2
> castillan xochitl.  flor o rosa de castilla.  55m-125r
> castillan xochitl.  flor o rosa de castilla.  71m1-63v1
> cueponcayotl.  flor o rosa generalmente.   71m1-63v1
> cueponi, ni-  dar estallido el hueuo, o la casta?a quando la asan,  
> o abrirse
>   y abrotar la flor, o la rosa, o resplandecer alguna cosa. 71m2-26r2
> moloni.  heruir o espessarse las nuues, esparzirse la suauidad del
>   olor dela rosa o del yncienso o esparzirse las plumas menudas.
>     71m1-71r1
> rosa.  flor o rosa de castilla.  55m-125r
> rosa.  flor o rosa de castilla.  71m1-63v1
> xiuhatlapalli.  hoja de rosa o flor.  71m1 71v2
> xochi atlapalli.  hoja de rosa o de flor.  71m2-161v2
> xochiatlapalli.  hoja de rosa o flor.  55m 141r
> xochiatlapalli.  hoja de rosa, o flor.  71m2 160r1
> xochiocuilin.  gusano de rosa.  55m-134v
> xochiocuilin.  gusano de rosa.  71m1-67v2
> xochitl.  flor o rosa generalmente.  71m1-63v1
> xochitl.  flor o rosa.  71m2-161v2
> xochitl.  rosa, o flor.  71m2-160r2
> xochizhuatl.  hoja de rosa o flor.  55m-141r
> xochizhuatl.  hoja de rosa o flor.  71m1-71v2
> xochizhuatl.  hoja de rosa.  71m2-160r2
> xochizhuatl.  hoja de flor, o rosa.  71m2-162r1
>
>
> * rosada **
> paatl.  agua rosada, vnguento suaue, o cosa semejante para recrear el
>   cuerpo.  71m2-78v1
> rosasneuctli.  miel rosada.  55m-171r
> rosasneuctli.  miel rosada.  71m1-84v2
> xochatl.  agua rosada.  55m-10v
> xochatl.  agua rosada.  71m1-6r1
> xochatl.  agua rosada.  71m2-160r1
> xochatl.  agua rosada.  71m2-161v2
> xochiatl.  agua rosada.  55m-10v
> xochiatl.  agua rosada.  71m1-6r1
> xochiatl.  agua rosada.  71m2-160r1
> xochiatl.  agua rosada.  71m2-161v2
> xochio neuctli.  miel rosada.  55m-171r
> xochio neuctli.  miel rosada.  71m1-84v2
> xochio neuctli.  miel rosada.  71m2-161v2
> xochipaltic.  cosa ruuia assi, o rosada.   71m2-161v2
>
> * rosado **
> iztalehualli, tla-  color encarnado o rosado.  71m2-146v2
> iztalehualtic, tla-  color encarnado o rosado.  71m2-146v2
> iztalehualtic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  55m-217v
> iztalehualtic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  71m1-105v2
> palpoyactic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  55m-217v
> palpoyactic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  71m1-105v2
> rosasazeite.  azeite rosado.  71m1-18r2
> tlapalpoyactic.  color rosado o naranjado.  71m2-130v2
> xochiazeite.  azeite rosado.  71m1-18r2
> xochipaltia, ni-  tornarse de color rosado.   71m2-161v2
> xochiyo.  rosado de materia de rosas.  55m-217v
> xochiyo.  rosado de materia de rosas.  71m1-105v2
>
>
> * rosal **
> xochioa.  brotar o florecer el rosal.  71m2 161v2
> xochiotia, mo-  florecer o echar rosas el rosal.  71m2-061r2
> xochitequi, ni-  coger flores, o rosas del rosal.  71m2-160r2
> xochitequi, ni-  coger flores o rosas del rosal.  71m2-161v2
>
> * rosas **
> cecencatohuiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     55m-144v
> cecencatohuiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     71m1-73r2
> cecencatohuiliztli, ne-  juego de rosas como con pelota.  71m2-064r2
> cecencatolhui, mo-  el que juega con rosas como con pelota. 71m2-57v2
> cecencatolhuia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  55m-145r
> cecencatolhuia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  71m1-73r2
> cecentelhuia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  55m-145r
> cecentelhuia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  71m1-73r2
> cecentelhuiani, mo-  el que juega con rosas como con pelota. 71m2-57v2
> cecentelhuiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     55m-144v
> cecentelhuiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     71m1-73r2
> icpacxochichihua, n-  corona de rosas hazer.  71m1-30v1
> icpacxochitl.  corona de rosas o guirnalda.   71m1-30v1
> iztalehualtic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  55m-217v
> iztalehualtic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  71m1-105v2
> palpoyactic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  55m-217v
> palpoyactic, tla-  rosado color de rosas.  71m1-105v2
> quechcotonaliztli, tla-  el acto de coger o cortar espigas de trigo,
>   rosas o frutas con la mano.  71m2-133v2
> tapayollalaza, ni-  jugar ala pelota o con rosas.  71m2-91r1
> tlaxochicuiya, nitla-  emboluer algo con faxa, o faxar, o emboluer y
>   adornar algo con guirnaldas de rosas y flores.  71m2-146v2
> tlaxochtecuiya, nitla-  emboluer algo con faxa, o faxar, o emboluer y
>   adornar algo con guirnaldas de rosas y flores.  71m2-146v2
> xochichihua, ni-  hazer ramillote o manojo de rosas o flores.   
> 71m2-161v2
> xochiotia, mo-  florecer o echar rosas el rosal.  71m2-061r2
> xochitequi, ni-  coger flores, o rosas del rosal.  71m2-160r2
> xochitequi, ni-  coger flores o rosas del rosal.  71m2-161v2
> xochiyo.  rosado de materia de rosas.  55m-217v
> xochiyo.  rosado de materia de rosas.  71m1-105v2
> xochiyotia, nitla-  poner rosas o flores en alguna cosa para
>   adornarla.  71m1-97r2
> xochiyotia, nitla-  rosas poner enalguna cosa o enrosar algo.   
> 71m1-105v2
> xoxochitlaxili, mo-  el que juega con rosas echando las en alto y
>   recogendolas.  71m2-061r2
> xoxochitlaxilia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  55m-145r
> xoxochitlaxilia, nino-  iugar con rosas.  71m1-73r2
> xoxochitlaxilia, nino-  jugar con rosas.  71m2-161v1
> xoxochitlaxiliani, mo-  el que juega con rosas echando las en alto y
>   recogendolas.  71m2-061r2
> xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     55m-144v
> xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne-  iuego con rosas como quien juega con pelota.
>     71m1-73r2
> xoxochitlaxiliztli, ne-  juego de rosas como con pelota.  71m2-71v1
>
>
>
>
>> May I take the opportunity to also ask what is the Nahuatl word  
>> for the
>> flower "rose"? - Molina says "tlapalpopoco" but I cannot  
>> understand what is
>> the role of smoke here!
>>
>> Thank you a lot.
>>
>> Susana Moraleda
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Thu Mar  1 04:34:37 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:34:37 -0800
Subject: Book recommendation
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2007.203437.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Hello, I'm new on the list; Kier Salmon.
I live in Portland, Oregon and grew up in M?xico, D.F. (18 years  
worth).  Although my ultimate goal is to learn Nahuatl (porque soy  
mula y me da coraje qu? nunca pens? en hacerlo cuando era joven) at  
this moment my short term goal is to understand how the language is  
structured well enough so that the characters in a book I am planning  
to write (Alternate history starting in 1475 ish) will be able to  
speak in a way that has the "flavor" of the language, even though  
most of the words are English.   I'm less worried about portraying  
them well (I feel "el car?cter mexica" hasn't changed too much) than  
I am to make their speech intelligible and at the same time give my  
reader the knowledge that these aren't modern people with modern  
ideology, what I call the "primitive moderns syndrome."
So the question for today is; I ran across the following book today  
in Powells (our big bookstore):

Nahuas and Spaniards: Postconquest Central Mexican History and  
Philology (Ucla Latin American Studies, Vol 76) by James Lockhart

Is it a worthwhile book for my purposes?
I've got close to 30 books waiting to be read... so I'm trying to be  
picky about the new books I buy.
Gracias (hmmm, como se daban gracias los tenochcas?)
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From campbel at indiana.edu  Thu Mar  1 19:04:03 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:04:03 -0500
Subject: "internal silence"
In-Reply-To: <CA8EEEE4-FEED-4AF0-8115-99CFBDC024FF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2007.140403.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." <idiez at mac.com>:

> Joetzin,
> 	I don't have my dictionary with me, but might there be a popoz-tli
> (or maybe a misspelled popoxtli, popotz-tli, popoch-tli) that upon
> the addition of -yoh or -yo would go to popozzo(h) / popo?o(h)?
> John


Johntzi,

   (My keyboard's 'devoiced n' is really hard to see...)   I liked your 
idea of chasing the identity of the "-popozo" further, so I got out my 
yellow marker and looked through the three Molinas and the Florentine.  
I don't think any of the things that I found will help solve the 
problem, but here they are.
   I stripped prefixes off and postposed them with a comma; bracketed 
letters indicate vowels that belong morphologically, but are deleted 
phonetically.
Numbers refer to which Molina or which book of the Florentine.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe


  ;amochipopozoquillotl.
   espuma de esta?o {71m1-11}
   escoria de esta?o {71m2-1}
   espuma de esta?o {55m-9}


  ;apopozoquillotia , m[o].
   it foams  << 1  1>>


  ;apopozoquillotl.
   espuma de agua {71m1-11}
   espuma de agua {71m2-2}
   espuma de agua {55m-9}
   foam  << 2  4>>
   foam  <<11 22>>


  ;campopotztic.
   carrilludo {71m1-4}
   ombre carrilludo o de grandes mexillas {71m1-16}
   carrilludo {71m2-2}
   ombre carrilludo o de grandes mexillas {55m-15}

  ;campopozactic.
   carrilludo {71m1-4}
   ombre carrilludo o de grandes mexillas {71m1-16}
   carrilludo {71m2-2}
   carrilludo {55m-3}
   ombre carrilludo o de grandes mexillas {55m-15}


  ;campopoztic.
   carrilludo {55m-3}


  ;castillan tlapalpopozo.
   rosa flor y mata conocida {55m-17}
   rosa flor y mata conocida {71m1-19}


  ;cemixtlilpopotz , mo.
   his face was covered with soot  << 1  2>>


  ;chapopoxahuaya , mo.
   they painted their faces with bitumen  << 8  3>>


  ;cozticteocuitlapopozoquillotl.
   espuma o escoria de oro {71m1-11}
   espuma de oro {55m-9}


  ;elpopozahua , nin.
   estomagarse enojarse {71m1-11}
   estomagarse de enojo {71m2-5}
   estomagarse enojarse {55m-9}


  ;ichpopochchicacti.
   recently matured maidens  << 2  4>>

  ;ichpopochpipil.
   unmarried girls  << 4 11>>


  ;ichpopochti.
   young girls  << 2  2>>
   maidens  << 2  3>>


  ;ichpopochtin.
   virgins  << 6 17>>


  ;ichpopochtotonti.
   little girls  <<10  5>>
   young girls  <<10 11>>


  ;ichpopochtzitzinti.
   maidens  << 6  9>>


  ;icxipopoxoa , nitla.
   cauar la tierra o escaruarla con el pie, estando hablando con otro {71m1-5}


  ;[i]cxipopoxoa , nitla.
   escaruar la tierra con los pies, estando hablando con otro {71m1-10}

  ;icxipopoxoa , nitla.
   escaruar la tierra conel pie {71m2-6}


  ;[i]cxipopoxoani , tla.
   cauador tal {71m1-5}
   escaruador tal {71m1-10}


  ;[i]cxipopoxoliztli , tla.
   cauadura desta manera {71m1-5}
   escaruadura assi {71m1-10}


  ;[i]cxipopoxolli , tla.
   cauada tierra assi {71m1-5}
   escaruada tierra desta manera {71m1-10}


  ;[i]cxipopoxoqui , tla.
   escaruador tal {71m1-10}


  ;ixcuatolpopozactic.
   having swollen eyelids  << 2  2>>


  ;ixcuatolpopozahuac.
   his eyelids are swollen  << 7  1>>

  ;ixpopotztic.
   ___  << 2  2>>


  ;ixpopozahua.
   his eyes are inflamed, swollen  << 4  2>>


  ;ixpopozahuac.
   his eyes are swollen  << 7  1>>


  ;ixtlilpopotz , m[o].
   his face was covered with soot  << 1  1>>


  ;ixtlilpopotza , qu.
   they blacken their faces  << 3  4>>


  ;ixtlilpopotzalli , tla.
   having his face covered with soot  << 1  1>>


  ;ixtlilpopotzque , m[o].
   they applied black paint to their [refl.] faces  << 2  3>>


  ;ixtlilpopotztinenca , m[o].
   he went about with his face smoke-black  << 2  3>>


  ;iztacteocuitlapopozoquillotl.
   espuma de plata {71m1-11}
   escoria de plata {71m2-9}
   espuma de plata {55m-9}


  ;nexpopoxoa , qui.
   he stirs it in ashes  <<10  4>>


  ;popochehuaticac texcalli.
   despe?adero {71m1-8}


  ;popochhhuia , ontla.
   they spread fragrance  << 8  4>>


  ;popochhui , tla.
   sahumador el que sahuma {71m1-19}
   el que inciensa o zahuma algo. s. el turificador o inciensador {71m2-23}
   sahumador el que sahuma {55m-18}


  ;popochhuia , mo.
   she perfumes herself  <<10  3>>
   he is incensed incense is applied to him  <<11 14>>
   he is affected by incense  <<11 19>>


  ;popochhuia , nino.
   perfumarse, o zahumarse {71m2-14}


  ;popochhuia , nite.
   zahumar, o incensar a otro {71m2-14}


  ;popochhuia , nitla.
   encensar {71m1-9}
   perfumar {71m1-17}
   sahumar {71m1-19}
   incensar o perfumar {71m2-14}
   encenssar {55m-7}
   sahumar {55m-18}


  ;popochhuia , qui.
   they incense him, they apply incense to him  << 2  3>>
   they offer him incense  << 6  9>>
   they perfume it  << 8  4>>


  ;popochhuia , tla.
   they offer incense  << 2 12>>
   he perfumes something  << 8  4>>


  ;popochhuiani , tla.
   encensador o turificador {71m1-9}
   sahumador el que sahuma {71m1-19}
   el que inciensa o zahuma algo. s. el turificador o inciensador {71m2-23}
   encenssador o turificador {55m-7}
   sahumador el que sahuma {55m-18}


  ;popochhuiliztli , ne.
   act of applying incense  <<10  8>>


  ;popochhuiliztli , tla.
   act of offering incense  << 6  9>>
   sahumerio {71m1-19}
   el acto de incensar o zahumar y perfumar algo {71m2-23}
   sahumerio {55m-18}


  ;popochhuilli , tla.
   encensado {71m1-9}
   cosa incensada assi {71m2-23}
   encenssado {55m-7}


  ;popochhuilo , ne.
   there is incensing  <<11 16>>


  ;popochhuiloni , tla.
   incense burner  << 9  6>>
   encensario {71m1-9}
   sahumador en que sahuman {71m1-19}
   incensario {71m2-23}
   encenssario {55m-7}
   sahumador en que sahuman {55m-18}


  ;popochhuique , otla.
   they spread fragrance  << 8  4>>


  ;popochhuiqui , tla.
   turificador, o incensador {71m2-23}


  ;popochilitiez , tonmotla.
   ___  << 6 11>>


  ;popochina , qui.
   they shred it fine  << 2  9>>


  ;popochinalli , tla.
   hilazas para herida {71m1-13}
   hilazas para herida {55m-11}


  ;popochintli , tla.
   hilazas para herida {71m1-13}
   hilazas para herida {55m-11}


  ;popochquiahuayo.
   having openings  <<11 26>>


  ;popochquio.
   ___  <<11 19>>


  ;popochtecati.
   he becomes a merchant  << 4  1>>


  ;popochtli.
   perfumes {71m1-17}
   perfumes {71m2-14}
   perfumes {55m-15}


  ;popochuia , nitla.
   perfumar {55m-15}


  ;popochuilo.
   incense is offered  << 2  3>>


  ;popotzahui.
   ___  <<11 19>>


  ;popotzani , tla.
   humoso lo que haze humo {71m1-13}
   cosa que echa desi mucho humo {71m2-23}
   humoso lo que haze humo {55m-11}


  ;popotzaquiaya , qui.
   they stuffed it in, they crammed it in  << 4  5>>


  ;popotzauhtoc.
   ___  << 4  4>>


  ;popotzoa , nino.
   hinchar los carrillos {71m1-13}
   hinchar los carrillos apretarse la gente o espessarse las yeruas {71m2-14}


  ;popotzoani , mo.
   hinchador tal {71m1-13}


  ;popotzoliztli , ne.
   hinchadura assi {71m1-13}


  ;popotzolo , ne.
   there is crowding  << 4 11>>
   there is crowding together  << 2 11>>


  ;popotzoqui , mo.
   hinchador tal {71m1-13}


  ;popoxactic.
   ___  <<10  5>>


  ;popoxacuahuia , te.
   ___  << 4 10>>


  ;popoxacuahuique , te.
   ___  << 4 10>>


  ;popoxalhuia , nitetla.
   mollir la tierra a otro {71m1-15}
   mullirle la tierra a otro {71m1-16}
   baruechar o mollir a otro la tierra {71m2-14}


  ;popoxalhuiani , tetla.
   mollidor tal {71m1-15}


  ;popoxalhuiliztli , tetla.
   mollidura assi {71m1-15}


  ;popoxani , mo.
   one who is energetic  <<10  1>>


  ;popoxcahui.
   it becomes mouldy  << 4 11>>


  ;popoxcanenequi , xonmo.
   ___  << 6 16>>


  ;popoxiuhtehua , xi.
   ___  << 6  8>>


  ;popoxiuhtehua.
   ___  << 4  1>>


  ;popoxiuhteuh.
   ___  <<10  3>>


  ;popoxoa , mo.
   quando se torna a^cauar la tierra que esta ya labrada {71m2-10}


  ;popoxoa , nitla.
   amollentar la tierra {71m1-2}
   baruechar {71m1-3}
   hornaguear la tierra {71m1-13}
   mullir la tierra {71m1-16}
   baruechar o mollir la tierra {71m2-14}
   amollentar tierra {55m-00}
   baruechar la eredad {55m-2}
   hornaguear la tierra {55m-11}


  ;popoxoa , tla.
   he hoes  << 4 12>>
   he hoes  <<10  3>>


  ;popoxoani , tla.
   amollentador assi {71m1-2}
   baruechador {71m2-23}


  ;popoxolizpan , tla.
   tiempo de baruechar, o de amollentar la tierra, quando la desieruan y
        labran la postrera vez, antes que este el mayz del todo sazonado
        {71m2-23}


  ;popoxoliztli , tla.
   amollentadura de tierra {71m1-2}
   baruecho {71m1-3}
   el acto de baruechar &c {71m2-23}
   baruecho {55m-2}


  ;popoxolli , tla.
   amollentada tierra {71m1-2}
   baruechado {71m1-3}
   tierra baruechada assi {71m2-23}
   amollentada tierra {55m-00}
   baruechado {55m-2}
   ___  << 7  2>>


  ;popoxolo , tla.
   tiempo que todos baruechan {71m2-23}


  ;popoxoqui , tla.
   amollentador assi {71m1-2}


  ;popoxotiuh , mo.
   ___  << 2 14>>


  ;popoxtic.
   energetic  <<10  3>>


  ;popoxtli.
   energetic  <<10  2>>


  ;popozac.
   ___  <<10  3>>


  ;popozactic.
   hinchado a tolondrones {71m1-13}
   hinchada cosa o llena de tolondrones {71m2-14}
   hinchado a tolondrones {55m-11}


  ;popozahua , ni.
   hincharse en esta manera {71m1-13}
   henchirse de hinchazones o de tolondrones {71m2-14}
   hincharse en esta manera {55m-11}


  ;popozahua , nino.
   alentar poco el que esta al cabo {71m1-2}
   alentar poco el que esta al cabo {55m-00}


  ;popozahua.
   she becomes swollen  << 3  2>>
   he swells up  <<11  8>>
   it swells up  <<11 14>>


  ;popozahualiztli.
   hinchazon desta manera {71m1-13}
   hinchazon desta manera {71m2-14}
   hinchazon desta manera {55m-11}
   swelling  << 3  3>>


  ;popozapil.
   ___  <<10  1>>


  ;popozauhtoc , mo.
   ___  << 7  2>>


  ;popozauhtoc , za quem mo.
   estar alguno medio muerto, agonizando y para espirar {71m2-3}


  ;popozoca , ni.
   heruir {71m1-13}
   heruir {55m-11}


  ;popozoca , tla.
   it bubbles up  << 2 11>>


  ;popozoca.
   heruir la olla, ocosa asi {71m2-14}
   it boils up  << 2  5>>


  ;popozocac.
   espumosa cosa {71m1-11}
   espumosa cosa {55m-9}


  ;popozocani.
   heruiente cosa {71m1-13}
   heruiente cosa {55m-11}


  ;popozocaticac.
   estar heruiendola olla {71m2-14}


  ;popozocatimani.
   estar heruiendola olla {71m2-14}


  ;popozocatoc.
   it lies bursting, it is bursting forth  << 4  4>>

  ;popozoctli.
   irritable  <<10  3>>


  ;popozonallalia , tla.
   ___  <<10  5>>


  ;popozonallo , i.
   its bubbles, its foam  <<11 22>>


  ;popozoni , ni.
   estomagarse enojarse {71m1-11}
   enojarse mucho {71m2-14}
   estomagarse enojarse {55m-9}


  ;popozoni.
   estomagado {71m1-11}
   heruir mucho la olla {71m2-14}
   estomagado {55m-9}
   it fluffs up  <<11 19>>
   it is bushy, it is fluffy  <<11 20>>


  ;popozoniliztli.
   heruor assi {71m1-13}
   heruor de olla o enojo grande {71m2-14}
   heruor assi {55m-11}


  ;popozonini.
   it is accustomed to boiling up  <<10 12>>
   it is bushy  <<11 20>>


  ;popozontimani.
   ___  <<11 11>>


  ;popozontoc.
   it lies fluffed up  <<11 19>>


  ;popozoquillo , cenca huel.
   espumosa cosa llena de espuma {71m1-11}
   espumosa cosa llena de espuma {55m-9}


  ;popozoquillo.
   espumosa cosa {71m1-11}
   cosa que tiene espuma {71m2-14}
   espumosa cosa {55m-9}
   having foam  <<11 24>>


  ;popozoquillotlaza , nitla.
   espumar, quitar la espuma {71m1-11}
   espumar la olla o cosa semejante {71m2-14}
   quitar la espuma {55m-9}


  ;popoztecca , to.
   our breakings  <<10  8>>


  ;popoztecque , ti.
   we broke  <<10  8>>


  ;popoztecqui.
   coxo del pie, o dela espinilla, por la tener quebrada, opalo quebrado en
        muchas partes. &c {71m2-14}
   coxo de espinilla quebrada o pie quebrado {55m-4}
   broken  <<10  4>>


  ;popoztectihuetzi.
   it suddenly breaks to pieces  << 2  6>>
   it falls broken to pieces  <<11 11>>


  ;popoztequi , nitla.
   quebrar muchas vezes palos, o cosas semejantes {71m2-14}


  ;popoztequi.
   it breaks up  << 5  3>>
   each one breaks  <<10  7>>
   it breaks repeatedly  <<11 11>>


  ;tamalpopoxcauhqui.
   moldy tamale  << 4 11>>


  ;telpopochpipil.
   small boys  << 2  6>>
   boys  << 2 10>>
   youths  << 4 11>>


  ;telpopochtequihuaque.
   young seasoned warriors  <<12  4>>


  ;telpopochti.
   youths  << 2 10>>


  ;telpopochtin , an.
   you [pl.] are youths  << 6 11>>


  ;telpopochtin.
   youths  << 2 10>>


  ;telpopochtli.
   youths  << 2  7>>


  ;telpopochtotonti.
   boys  << 2  6>>

  ;telpopochtzitzinti.
   youths  << 6  9>>
   small boys  << 9  2>>


  ;telpopotzitzinti.
   young boys  <<12  6>>


  ;temetzpopozoquillotl.
   espuma de plomo {71m1-11}
   escoria o espuma de plomo {71m2-16}
   espuma de plomo {55m-9}


  ;tepopozoctli.
   <lo mesmo es que tepozoctli> {71m2-17}


  ;tepopozoquillo , in.
   their foam  <<12  3>>


  ;tetempopozoquillo.
   having foam at their mouths  << 4  2>>


  ;tlalpopoxoa , qui.
   ___  <<10  4>>


  ;topopochahui.
   ___  <<10  7>>


  ;xippopoxoani , tla.
   escardador tal {71m2-25}


  ;xippopoxoliztli , tla.
   el acto de escardar ortaliza assi, o escardadura {71m2-25}


  ;xippopoxolli , tla.
   ortaliza escardada {71m2-25}


  ;xiuhpopoxoa , nitla.
   escardar {71m1-10}
   deseruar {71m2-27}
   escardar {55m-8}


  ;xiuhpopoxoani , tla.
   escardador el que escarda {71m1-10}
   el que escarda o desierua algo {71m2-25}
   escardador el que escarda {55m-8}


  ;xiuhpopoxoliztli , tla.
   escardadura {71m1-10}
   el acto de escardar assi {71m2-25}
   escardadura {55m-8}


  ;xiuhpopoxolli , tla.
   escardado {71m1-10}
   cosa escardada o deseruada {71m2-25}
   escardado {55m-8}


  ;yacacuitlapopotz.
   mocoso,lleno de mocos {71m1-15}
   mocoso {71m2-5}
   mocoso lleno de mocos {55m-14}


  ;yellelpopozahua.
   estomagado {55m-9}


  ;yollopopozahua.
   estomagado {71m1-11}






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From sylvia at famsi.org  Thu Mar  1 19:17:14 2007
From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:17:14 -0500
Subject: Reports/Informes--Amatlan, Ciudad Vieja, Machaquila, Seibal,
 Santa Maria Zapotitlan, Kuluba, Chan Chich
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2007.141714.0500.>

Hello Mesoamericanists,

Our newest grantee research reports at FAMSI website include:

Traditional Medicine Among the Nahua:
Contemporary and Ancient Medicinal Plants (2005)
by Vania Smith-Oka.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05063/index.html

The End of Pre-Columbian Pipil Civilization, Ciudad Vieja,
El Salvador (2003)
by William R. Fowler.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/02091/index.html

Ninth-Century Stelae of Machaquila and Seibal (2002)
by Bryan R. Just.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/01050/index.html


Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos
del Ingles al Espa?ol:

El Proyecto de Arqueologia Historica de La Chontalpa, Oaxaca (2005)
por Danny Zborover.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05038es/index.html

Temporada de Campo 2001 del Proyecto Arqueologico Kuluba (2001)
por J. Gregory Smith.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/00051es/index.html

El Proyecto Arqueologico Chan Chich (1997)
por Brett A. Houk.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/97004es/index.html

Saludos,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Mar  2 06:22:12 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 01:22:12 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070301140403.e6tmqf7r40s4s8g4@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.012212.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Listeros,

   I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse than 
anyone else's.  I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions on 
the ones that I have included below.  Actually, this is a small sample 
of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are troubling me 
-- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.

   I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe


The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".

Most items are from Molina.

I have been explicit about some of my doubts...



** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?

  ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le rin~en.
     71m1-17
  ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
    todos en general.  71m2-2
  ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
    general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19



** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what does
   that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?

  atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10



** I can't account for the "x"

  axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7



** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?

  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1



** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua", but...

  chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
  chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
     55m-6
  chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6



** can this be related to "nequi"?
   ...but what is the "chi-"?

  chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16



** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive marker,
   but what is the "o"?
  ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16



** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
   when does "-ni" get lost like this?

  pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14



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From brokaw at buffalo.edu  Fri Mar  2 12:23:55 2007
From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:23:55 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302012212.v9nui4fpag404s88@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.072355.0500.>

Hi Joe,
I assume that the nitlatilia is related to "maatilia," meaning "to be
elastic." Perhaps the notion of elasticity is related conceptually to
the quality of water as being fluid, in motion, etc. So "atia" meaning
"to become water or water-like" means "to melt" but maybe also more
generally to the idea of taking on any of the qualities of water, one of
which being its fluidity/elasticity, its ability to change shape?

And the "pozolatl," wouldn't that be pozolli + atl?

Galen






Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> Listeros,
> 
>    I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse
> than 
> anyone else's.  I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions on
> 
> the ones that I have included below.  Actually, this is a small
> sample 
> of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are troubling
> me 
> -- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.
> 
>    I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.
> 
> Iztayohmeh,
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".
> 
> Most items are from Molina.
> 
> I have been explicit about some of my doubts...
> 
> 
> 
> ** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?
> 
>   ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le
> rin~en.
>      71m1-17
>   ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
>     todos en general.  71m2-2
>   ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que
> en
>     general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19
> 
> 
> 
> ** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what does
>    that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?
> 
>   atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
> 
> 
> 
> ** I can't account for the "x"
> 
>   axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
> 
> 
> 
> ** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?
> 
>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
> 
> 
> 
> ** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua", but...
> 
>   chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
>   chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
>      55m-6
>   chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
> 
> 
> 
> ** can this be related to "nequi"?
>    ...but what is the "chi-"?
> 
>   chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
> 
> 
> 
> ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive
> marker,
>    but what is the "o"?
>   ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
> 
> 
> 
> ** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
>    when does "-ni" get lost like this?
> 
>   pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
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From clayton at indiana.edu  Fri Mar  2 14:23:13 2007
From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:23:13 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302012212.v9nui4fpag404s88@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.092313.0500.CLAYTON@INDIANA.EDU>

Joe,
     I'm pretty sure that ayotzincuepa corresponds to "turn turtle" in 
English (the summersault that kids do when they crouch, put their head 
on the floor then push with their feet so that their backside goes over 
their head and they end up on their back). Maria Moliner has for 
voltear " dar vueltas a una cosa, particularmente, haciendo cada vez 
que quede arriba lo que estaba abajo...", so a:yo:tl-tzi:ntli-cuepa. 
Why this should be "al modo de espan~a, I have no idea.
     Incidentally, the Vocabulario trilingu"e has it three times.

     Mary

Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> Listeros,
>
>   I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse than
> anyone else's.  I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions on
> the ones that I have included below.  Actually, this is a small sample
> of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are troubling me
> -- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.
>
>   I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe
>
>
> The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".
>
> Most items are from Molina.
>
> I have been explicit about some of my doubts...
>
>
>
> ** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?
>
>  ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le rin~en.
>     71m1-17
>  ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
>    todos en general.  71m2-2
>  ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
>    general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19
>
>
>
> ** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what does
>   that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?
>
>  atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
>
>
>
> ** I can't account for the "x"
>
>  axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
>
>
>
> ** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?
>
>  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
>  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
>
>
>
> ** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua", but...
>
>  chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
>  chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
>     55m-6
>  chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
>
>
>
> ** can this be related to "nequi"?
>   ...but what is the "chi-"?
>
>  chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
>
>
>
> ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive marker,
>   but what is the "o"?
>  ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
>
>
>
> ** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
>   when does "-ni" get lost like this?
>
>  pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de  Fri Mar  2 14:42:37 2007
From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:42:37 +0100
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <1172838235.45e8175b11795@mail2.buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.154237.0100.H.KAMMLER@EM.UNIFRANKFURT.DE>

A mind boggling list indeed.

>>   axtic.  moist; watery.
Maybe the archaic root variant /a:l/ of /a:/ (like in /a:ltepe:tl/) 
developed an additional variant by way of devoicing the /l/, like [a:l] 
 > [a:L] > *[a:?]

Karttunen has /a:x=in/ for a certain insect and a medical substance 
(liquid?) that it secretes.

>>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
>>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
Even the Spanish part is a riddle to me. Would that be a military or 
chess term? "flipping like a turtle" "changing sides like pumpkins"?

>> ** can this be related to "nequi"?
>>    ...but what is the "chi-"?
>>
>>   chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16

There's a risk of comparing apples with pears but modern Oapan (and 
some neighbors) has that clitic too:
chi pite:ntsi:n "pretty small"
chi kwaltsi:n "really pretty"

tichi amigos yeskeh "we will be real good friends" (alligator talking 
to Old Burro trying to convince him to carry him to the river)


>> ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive
>> marker,
>>    but what is the "o"?
>>   ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16

It might be connected to /o'tli/ "way", though this has the possessed 
form /o'wi/ but the root is /o'/ and in a body part term it may have 
taken on a different morphological behavior. Many "ifs" involved 
again...

>>   pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14

I'd spontaneously agree with Galen. /posolli/ is basically "mayz 
cocido" (Karttunen references it with /poso:ni/)

Sa:n o:me nocentavitoh o:nikinkalakti ;-)

Henry

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From brokaw at buffalo.edu  Fri Mar  2 15:18:21 2007
From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 10:18:21 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302154237.ilq497y79c0kwcgs@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.101821.0500.>

As I was reading Henry's comments, another idea for chinequiztli occured
to me. Could this "chi" be from the "chichi" associatd with suckling and
milk. If I am not mistaken, even today in Mexico "chichi" can refer to a
woman's breasts. So, might this mean literally something like "desire
for milk from suckling" and extended to refer more generally to whining
and fussing?

Galen


Quoting Henry Kammler <h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de>:

> A mind boggling list indeed.
> 
> >>   axtic.  moist; watery.
> Maybe the archaic root variant /a:l/ of /a:/ (like in /a:ltepe:tl/) 
> developed an additional variant by way of devoicing the /l/, like
> [a:l] 
>  > [a:L] > *[a:?]
> 
> Karttunen has /a:x=in/ for a certain insect and a medical substance 
> (liquid?) that it secretes.
> 
> >>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
> >>   ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a. 
> 71m2-1
> Even the Spanish part is a riddle to me. Would that be a military or
> 
> chess term? "flipping like a turtle" "changing sides like pumpkins"?
> 
> >> ** can this be related to "nequi"?
> >>    ...but what is the "chi-"?
> >>
> >>   chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
> 
> There's a risk of comparing apples with pears but modern Oapan (and 
> some neighbors) has that clitic too:
> chi pite:ntsi:n "pretty small"
> chi kwaltsi:n "really pretty"
> 
> tichi amigos yeskeh "we will be real good friends" (alligator talking
> 
> to Old Burro trying to convince him to carry him to the river)
> 
> 
> >> ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive
> >> marker,
> >>    but what is the "o"?
> >>   ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
> 
> It might be connected to /o'tli/ "way", though this has the possessed
> 
> form /o'wi/ but the root is /o'/ and in a body part term it may have
> 
> taken on a different morphological behavior. Many "ifs" involved 
> again...
> 
> >>   pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14
> 
> I'd spontaneously agree with Galen. /posolli/ is basically "mayz 
> cocido" (Karttunen references it with /poso:ni/)
> 
> Sa:n o:me nocentavitoh o:nikinkalakti ;-)
> 
> Henry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
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From jonathan.amith at yale.edu  Fri Mar  2 15:47:41 2007
From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 10:47:41 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302012212.v9nui4fpag404s88@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.104741.0500.>

Hi Joe,

Interesting problems... kept me away from transcribing for some time!


ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le rin~en.
     71m1-17
ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
    todos en general.  71m2-2
ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
    general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19

The fact that all are given as reflexives is interesting. Molina is usually
careful when there are reflexive and nonreflexive uses of a transitive verb to
give both. My first impression is that the first element is from a?wa the
transitive verb ?to scold? with vowel weakening of final /a/ to /i/.
Someone with a knowledge of historical linguistics might comment on this.
However, such weakening is not uncommon in applicative and causative
derivations (e.g., no:chilia from no:tsa; e:witia from e:wa). Another
possibility is a valency increase (applicative; see Launey 1992, p. 188) from
a?wa to a?wia and subsequent compounding. There are some verbs that end in
?wa that have such valency increases (ka:wa > ka:wia)

atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
I can only assume this is a metaphoric extension of the meaning of ?atl? as
?guerra?, also in Molina. Therefore it would be a verbalization. Note that
it is given with a tla- prefix, which would suggest that the object is not a
specific human but rather a general action (e.g., tla-tla:katilia, where
tla:katilia means ?to give birth to?).


axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
There are a series of deverbal forms that have /x/. Many are from verbs 
that end
in ?ni (kwalaxtli, cf. Launey 1992:281). However, in this case it probably
derives from a:+ya and then the participial form a(:)tik. Cf. a:laxtik from
a:lawa, etc.


ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
Yes, from ?turtle?. Modern Guerrero has ?a:yo:tsi:nkwepa (a:yo:tsi:nkopa;
note the two initial long vowels) meaning ?to turn somersaults/forward
rolls? Perhaps related to the turtle action in withdrawing its head into its
body. When one does a forward roll one tucks ones head into ones body.

chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
     55m-6
chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
I would go for chik- meaning ?off to one side? In Guerrero cho has an
intensifying sense of doing something intensely or constantly. e.g., cho
tlakwahtikah / cho tlakwahtok Thus a riddle that refers to a cuajiote (Bursera
sp.) with peeling bark asks nochi to:nahli cho tlake:nxixi:ntok. There is also
an intensifier that is added to many verbs chi:- or chi-. E.g., chipatla:wa
?to get ripped wide open leaving a gaping hole? or something to the effect.
However, I think in this case chik- is from the ?soslayo? meaning
(chikoki:stok). Launey (1992:272) discusses denominal verbs with ?oa but
these are intransitives. Therefore the problem of the second elements kaloa,
kalolli, kana:wa is more problematic.

chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
Here perhaps the intensifier use of chi- or chiki- as a verbal prefix. Or
perhaps related to chi- as a palatalized diminutive. Who knows?

ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
This might be related to an inanimate possessor (or part/whole 
possession). Thus
i:kal is ?his/her house? while i:kallo is ?its roof? (note that kalli
can mean ?shelter? or ?overhang? cf. kahkalli for ?toldo?. Thus one
would perhaps have i:xteyo:tl, possessed as ti:xteyo(w). I am unsure of the
nature of the ?w possessed marker on ?yo final stems. Often it is not
there. The nature of ?yo possessed forms needs a lot of work.

po:so:la:tl, yes from po:so:l-li + a:tl


Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> Listeros,
>
>   I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse than
> anyone else's.  I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions on
> the ones that I have included below.  Actually, this is a small sample
> of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are troubling me
> -- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.
>
>   I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe
>
>
> The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".
>
> Most items are from Molina.
>
> I have been explicit about some of my doubts...
>
>
>
> ** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?
>
>  ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le rin~en.
>     71m1-17
>  ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
>    todos en general.  71m2-2
>  ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
>    general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19
>
>
>
> ** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what does
>   that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?
>
>  atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
>
>
>
> ** I can't account for the "x"
>
>  axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
>
>
>
> ** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?
>
>  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
>  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
>
>
>
> ** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua", but...
>
>  chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
>  chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
>     55m-6
>  chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
>
>
>
> ** can this be related to "nequi"?
>   ...but what is the "chi-"?
>
>  chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
>
>
>
> ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive marker,
>   but what is the "o"?
>  ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
>
>
>
> ** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
>   when does "-ni" get lost like this?
>
>  pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



-- 
Jonathan D. Amith
Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages
Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago
(O) 717-337-6795
(H) 717-338-1255
Mail to:
Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology
Gettysburg College
Campus Box 412
300 N. Washington Street
Gettysburg, PA  17325
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From chelodona at argentina.com  Fri Mar  2 18:51:43 2007
From: chelodona at argentina.com (Chelo Dona)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:51:43 -0300
Subject: xinechpalehuican
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.155143.0300.CHELODONA@ARGENTINA.COM>

?Joe, listeros:
I' cannot understand very much nahuatl,?or english. Just googling, I
find a cup of things. I wonder if it help.
>>From what D.K. Jordan?call "Inadequate Nahuatl Reference Grammar",
-ahui = non-productive transitivizing suffix 
(http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahugram.html)
Another view: I think etymology of other words like ahuitzotl or
ahuilnema have no conexion with your question?
By the way, if this communication makes no sense, just delete it,
moderadores. I'm not angry with my ex ?girlfriend? (na), so I will
understand you too. 
Marcelo Donadello
----- Mensaje original -----
Fecha: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 01:22:12 -0500
De: "Campbell, R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Nahuat-l] xinechpalehuican


I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse than
anyone else's. I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions on
the ones that I have included below. Actually, this is a small sample
of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are troubling
me
-- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.

I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe


The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".

Most items are from Molina.

I have been explicit about some of my doubts...



** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?

ahuitoca =nin. pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le
rin~en.
71m1-17
ahuitoca =nin. tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
todos en general. 71m2-2
ahuitoca =nino. sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
general se amonesta atodos. 71m1-19



** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what does
that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?

atilia =nitla. frecher el arco. 55m-10



** I can't account for the "x"

axtic. moist; watery. b.10 f.7



** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?

ayotzincuepa =nin. boltear al modo de espan~a. 55m-2
ayotzincuepa =nin. boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a. 71m2-1



** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua", but...

chiccaloa =nonte. echar por fuerza de casa a alguno. 55m-6
chiccalolli =tla. echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
55m-6
chiccanahua =nite. echar por fuerza de casa a alguno. 55m-6



** can this be related to "nequi"?
...but what is the "chi-"?

chinequiztli. nin~o que llora mucho. 71m1-16



** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive
marker,
but what is the "o"?
ixteouh =to. nin~a del ojo. 71m1-16



** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
when does "-ni" get lost like this?

pozolatl. beuida de mayz cozido. 71m2-14



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From brokaw at buffalo.edu  Fri Mar  2 19:28:49 2007
From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:28:49 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302104741.k9b6074hcsgg0w40@www.mail.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.142849.0500.>

Like Jonathan, I'm using Joe's list to distract me from less interesting
things that I have to do, but I'm doing it throughout the day as an
excuse to take a short break whenever I get bogged down. So, here is
another idea. I'm surprised it didn't occur to me the first time I
looked at the list.

In the case of tixteouh, it seems to me like the most probable
interpretation would be:

ixtli + teotl, which when possessed would produce tixteouh.

Expressions like "teotlac" use teotl to refer to the sun. Perhaps the
term could be extended to refer to the iris of the eye when accompanied
by ixtli. This would explain the "o" very nicely, and it makes sense. I
can't lay any claim to a Mesoamerican world view, but this type of
metaphoric construction seems to be characteristic of Nahuatl linguistic
practice.

Galen







Quoting jonathan.amith at yale.edu:

> Hi Joe,
> 
> Interesting problems... kept me away from transcribing for some
> time!
> 
> 
> ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le
> rin~en.
>      71m1-17
> ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
>     todos en general.  71m2-2
> ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que en
>     general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19
> 
> The fact that all are given as reflexives is interesting. Molina is
> usually
> careful when there are reflexive and nonreflexive uses of a
> transitive verb to
> give both. My first impression is that the first element is from a?wa
> the
> transitive verb ?to scold? with vowel weakening of final /a/ to /i/.
> Someone with a knowledge of historical linguistics might comment on
> this.
> However, such weakening is not uncommon in applicative and causative
> derivations (e.g., no:chilia from no:tsa; e:witia from e:wa).
> Another
> possibility is a valency increase (applicative; see Launey 1992, p.
> 188) from
> a?wa to a?wia and subsequent compounding. There are some verbs that
> end in
> ?wa that have such valency increases (ka:wa > ka:wia)
> 
> atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
> I can only assume this is a metaphoric extension of the meaning of
> ?atl? as
> ?guerra?, also in Molina. Therefore it would be a verbalization. Note
> that
> it is given with a tla- prefix, which would suggest that the object
> is not a
> specific human but rather a general action (e.g., tla-tla:katilia,
> where
> tla:katilia means ?to give birth to?).
> 
> 
> axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
> There are a series of deverbal forms that have /x/. Many are from
> verbs 
> that end
> in ?ni (kwalaxtli, cf. Launey 1992:281). However, in this case it
> probably
> derives from a:+ya and then the participial form a(:)tik. Cf.
> a:laxtik from
> a:lawa, etc.
> 
> 
> ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
> ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
> Yes, from ?turtle?. Modern Guerrero has ?a:yo:tsi:nkwepa
> (a:yo:tsi:nkopa;
> note the two initial long vowels) meaning ?to turn
> somersaults/forward
> rolls? Perhaps related to the turtle action in withdrawing its head
> into its
> body. When one does a forward roll one tucks ones head into ones
> body.
> 
> chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
> chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
>      55m-6
> chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
> I would go for chik- meaning ?off to one side? In Guerrero cho has
> an
> intensifying sense of doing something intensely or constantly. e.g.,
> cho
> tlakwahtikah / cho tlakwahtok Thus a riddle that refers to a cuajiote
> (Bursera
> sp.) with peeling bark asks nochi to:nahli cho tlake:nxixi:ntok.
> There is also
> an intensifier that is added to many verbs chi:- or chi-. E.g.,
> chipatla:wa
> ?to get ripped wide open leaving a gaping hole? or something to the
> effect.
> However, I think in this case chik- is from the ?soslayo? meaning
> (chikoki:stok). Launey (1992:272) discusses denominal verbs with ?oa
> but
> these are intransitives. Therefore the problem of the second elements
> kaloa,
> kalolli, kana:wa is more problematic.
> 
> chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
> Here perhaps the intensifier use of chi- or chiki- as a verbal
> prefix. Or
> perhaps related to chi- as a palatalized diminutive. Who knows?
> 
> ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
> This might be related to an inanimate possessor (or part/whole 
> possession). Thus
> i:kal is ?his/her house? while i:kallo is ?its roof? (note that
> kalli
> can mean ?shelter? or ?overhang? cf. kahkalli for ?toldo?. Thus one
> would perhaps have i:xteyo:tl, possessed as ti:xteyo(w). I am unsure
> of the
> nature of the ?w possessed marker on ?yo final stems. Often it is
> not
> there. The nature of ?yo possessed forms needs a lot of work.
> 
> po:so:la:tl, yes from po:so:l-li + a:tl
> 
> 
> Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:
> 
> > Listeros,
> >
> >   I know that everyone has problems, but somehow mine seem worse
> than
> > anyone else's.  I'm hoping to get widespread help and suggestions
> on
> > the ones that I have included below.  Actually, this is a small
> sample
> > of the items from Molina and the Florentine Codex that are
> troubling me
> > -- all of the rest of them are back at the ranch.
> >
> >   I would appreciate any ideas that y'all can offer.
> >
> > Iztayohmeh,
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> > The prefixes follow the stem and are marked with '=".
> >
> > Most items are from Molina.
> >
> > I have been explicit about some of my doubts...
> >
> >
> >
> > ** I assume that "-toca" is 'believe', but what is "ahui-"?
> >
> >  ahuitoca =nin.  pensar alguno que le reprehenden otros y que le
> rin~en.
> >     71m1-17
> >  ahuitoca =nin.  tomar por si la reprehension que se da a
> >    todos en general.  71m2-2
> >  ahuitoca =nino.  sentirse dela reprehension,tomando porsi lo que
> en
> >    general  se amonesta atodos.  71m1-19
> >
> >
> >
> > ** This looks like it should mean 'I melt something', but what
> does
> >   that have to do with 'stringing a bow'?
> >
> >  atilia =nitla.  frecher el arco.  55m-10
> >
> >
> >
> > ** I can't account for the "x"
> >
> >  axtic.  moist; watery.  b.10 f.7
> >
> >
> >
> > ** "ninotzincuepa" would be transparent, but what is "ayo-"?
> >
> >  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear al modo de espan~a.  55m-2
> >  ayotzincuepa =nin.  boltear o trepar al modo de espan~a.  71m2-1
> >
> >
> >
> > ** At one time I wondered if this was related to "chica:hua",
> but...
> >
> >  chiccaloa =nonte.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
> >  chiccalolli =tla.  echado assi; echado fuera de casa por fuerza.
> >     55m-6
> >  chiccanahua =nite.  echar por fuerza de casa a alguno.  55m-6
> >
> >
> >
> > ** can this be related to "nequi"?
> >   ...but what is the "chi-"?
> >
> >  chinequiztli.  nin~o que llora mucho.  71m1-16
> >
> >
> >
> > ** probably "i:xtli" and "tetl", and the "-uh" is a possessive
> marker,
> >   but what is the "o"?
> >  ixteouh =to.  nin~a del ojo.  71m1-16
> >
> >
> >
> > ** apparently "pozo:ni" and "atl", but the "l" doesn't fit;
> >   when does "-ni" get lost like this?
> >
> >  pozolatl.  beuida de mayz cozido.  71m2-14
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jonathan D. Amith
> Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages
> Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University
> of Chicago
> (O) 717-337-6795
> (H) 717-338-1255
> Mail to:
> Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology
> Gettysburg College
> Campus Box 412
> 300 N. Washington Street
> Gettysburg, PA  17325
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From campbel at indiana.edu  Sat Mar  3 02:06:30 2007
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 21:06:30 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
In-Reply-To: <20070302154237.ilq497y79c0kwcgs@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2007.210630.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Galen, Henry, Jonathan, and Marcelo [and Mary |8-) ]....

   Thanks a million for the all the time and thought you put into 
today's suggestions!!  I will send an update on what I'm able to 
integrate -- along with
further thoughts.

   In the meantime, Jonathan's idea on "ixteouh, to" pushed me to take 
a look at items that I had like that and identify two more of them (-yo 
+ -uh).
Here is the list at present:

icacmecayouh. his sandal thong.  FC.

icnopillouh. his gains.   FC.

incacmecayouh. their sandal thongs.  FC.

inchichihualayouh. their milk.   FC.

intlamecayouh. .   FC.

intonacayouh. their maize, their corn.  FC.

iteixayopapachocauh. its suppressor of tears.   FC.

itlaquechpanyouh. .   FC.

itonacayouh. his food.   FC.

itonacayouh. his sustenance, his product of the soil.   FC.

itzcuimpatiyouh. his price of dogs.  FC.

motlalticpacayouh. .   FC.

motonacayouh. your sustenance, your food.   FC.

toyaoyouh. our battle.   FC.

tzoyouh =to. seso el saluonor.   55m-18.
   (seso is a misprint for sieso, alphabetized under "sie..."

tzoyouh =to. sieso el saluonor.   71m1-19.

yacayouh =notla. primogenito.   71m1-17.

Again, thank you.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe


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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Mon Mar  5 15:55:54 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:55:54 -0800
Subject: Pronouncing that darned "X"
Message-ID: <MON.5.MAR.2007.075554.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

I received some very nice help the last time I asked about Xipe- 
Totec.  But this morning I'm writing Excan Tlatoloyan and going...
"X"-Can... nooooo.
Mexico (ji!)
Ejican Tlatoloyan?  Accent on the ji?

Xolo-Itzquitle
sholo or solo? Or scholo?, but not jolo, is this correct?
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From jonathan.amith at yale.edu  Mon Mar  5 18:09:46 2007
From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:09:46 -0500
Subject: xinechpalehuican
Message-ID: <MON.5.MAR.2007.130946.0500.>

Hi,

Michel Launey would know more about these. In his 1992 book he discusses the
possessive forms of abstract nouns that end in -yo:tl (pp. 96ff) and
notes that
they do not accept the -uh (i.e., -w) possessed suffix.

However, there is perhaps something going on and maybe it is necessary to
disguish
- noun stem + yo (what I would call inanimate possession, which is extended to
certain body parts as a secondary meaning)
- [noun stem + yo:tl = abstract noun] + w (replacing the absolutive)
This would
be used with human possessors of abstract noun, at least sometimes.

This might have been something what was occurring.  But it is clearly not
completely pervasive (cf. te:nyo:tl > i:te:nyo 'his/her fame' and not
?i:te:nyo:w.

But neverthess, the forms below are all sorts of secondary human possession of
an intrinsic part-whole possession. Thus

cacmecayotl can also be expressed as cactli i:mecayo
chi:chiwa:la:yo:tl can also be expressed as chi:chi:wa:lli i:a:yo

Other cases are different. But there seems to be something interesting with the
yo+uh that I am not entirely familiar with.

best, jda

Quoting "Campbell,  R Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> Galen, Henry, Jonathan, and Marcelo [and Mary |8-) ]....
>
>   Thanks a million for the all the time and thought you put into
> today's suggestions!!  I will send an update on what I'm able to
> integrate -- along with
> further thoughts.
>
>   In the meantime, Jonathan's idea on "ixteouh, to" pushed me to take
> a look at items that I had like that and identify two more of them (-yo
> + -uh).
> Here is the list at present:
>
> icacmecayouh. his sandal thong.  FC.
>
> icnopillouh. his gains.   FC.
>
> incacmecayouh. their sandal thongs.  FC.
>
> inchichihualayouh. their milk.   FC.
>
> intlamecayouh. .   FC.
>
> intonacayouh. their maize, their corn.  FC.
>
> iteixayopapachocauh. its suppressor of tears.   FC.
>
> itlaquechpanyouh. .   FC.
>
> itonacayouh. his food.   FC.
>
> itonacayouh. his sustenance, his product of the soil.   FC.
>
> itzcuimpatiyouh. his price of dogs.  FC.
>
> motlalticpacayouh. .   FC.
>
> motonacayouh. your sustenance, your food.   FC.
>
> toyaoyouh. our battle.   FC.
>
> tzoyouh =to. seso el saluonor.   55m-18.
>   (seso is a misprint for sieso, alphabetized under "sie..."
>
> tzoyouh =to. sieso el saluonor.   71m1-19.
>
> yacayouh =notla. primogenito.   71m1-17.
>
> Again, thank you.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



-- 
Jonathan D. Amith
Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages
Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago
(O) 717-337-6795
(H) 717-338-1255
Mail to:
Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology
Gettysburg College
Campus Box 412
300 N. Washington Street
Gettysburg, PA  17325
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Mar  6 02:18:00 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:18:00 -0500
Subject: Pronouncing that darned "X"
In-Reply-To: <0520B42E-6BBD-4D33-B322-8747E3DFB820@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <MON.5.MAR.2007.211800.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

The -x- ALWAYS has the sound value of -sh-

so: Excan is ESH-can
Xolo = SHO-lo
Mexico - me-SHE-co



> I received some very nice help the last time I asked about Xipe-
> Totec.  But this morning I'm writing Excan Tlatoloyan and going...
> "X"-Can... nooooo.
> Mexico (ji!)
> Ejican Tlatoloyan?  Accent on the ji?
>
> Xolo-Itzquitle
> sholo or solo? Or scholo?, but not jolo, is this correct?
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


-- 
John F. Schwaller
President,
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
schwallr at potsdam.edu


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From amoxtli at earthlink.net  Sun Mar  4 22:09:39 2007
From: amoxtli at earthlink.net (Walter Koenig)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:09:39 -0800
Subject: Mesoamerican Codices
Message-ID: <SUN.4.MAR.2007.140939.0800.AMOXTLI@EARTHLINK.NET>

Greetings,

I am looking for a web site or publication which lists the pre- 
Conquest Mesoamerican Codices, their approximate place of origin and  
age, their present location, and their content i.e. history,  
divinatory almanac etc.

Thank you for your help.

Best Wishes,

Walter O. Koenig
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From brokaw at buffalo.edu  Tue Mar  6 12:11:11 2007
From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:11:11 -0500
Subject: Mesoamerican Codices
In-Reply-To: <1BBEEB73-E992-40BB-941E-6A1A5967DEA6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.MAR.2007.071111.0500.>

Dear Walter,
A good place to start is volume 14 of the Handbook of Middle American
Indians. It contains several chapters that will interest you,
particularly the one titled "A census of Native Middle American
pictorial manuscripts" by John Glass and Donald Robertson.
It was published in 1975, so it is now somewhat dated, but I think it is
still the most comprehensive source for the kind of information you are
looking for.

Galen


Quoting Walter Koenig <amoxtli at earthlink.net>:

> Greetings,
> 
> I am looking for a web site or publication which lists the pre- 
> Conquest Mesoamerican Codices, their approximate place of origin and 
> 
> age, their present location, and their content i.e. history,  
> divinatory almanac etc.
> 
> Thank you for your help.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Walter O. Koenig
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
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From amoxtli at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  6 16:51:56 2007
From: amoxtli at earthlink.net (Walter Koenig)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:51:56 -0800
Subject: Mesoamerican Codices
In-Reply-To: <C212F002.7EE7%gillespie.jeanne@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.MAR.2007.085156.0800.AMOXTLI@EARTHLINK.NET>

Dear fellow Listeros,

Thank you for your replies and suggestions. I am familiar with the  
codices on the FAMSI site and also with the publications of ADEVA,  
though these are not comprehensive and also only give partial  
information I seek.
I know of several lists that are partial, for example, in Anders and  
Jansen: "Schrift und Buch im Alten Mexiko", Gordon Brotherston:  
"Painted books from Mexico : codices in UK collections and the world  
they represent" or the two recent books by Elizabeth Hill Boone. It  
has been years since I consulted the "Handbook of Middle American  
Indians" on the subject and I will do so today as per the suggestion  
of Galen and also "Los c?dices de M?xico : historias extrordinarias"  
as suggested by Kier. I have access to both.

I am in the process of reviewing some books and realized that there  
is no comprehensive listing of codices that I know of which gives  
their approximate place of origin and age, their present location,  
physical description and content, as well as if they were ever  
reproduced with bibliographical information. I would think such an  
overview would be most helpful to students of Mesoamerican Studies in  
a variety of disciplines. If any of you ever come across anything,  
even partial, please let me know.

I am in the process of compiling such a list for my own purposes and  
if I think it meets the standards for distribution I may submit it.

Thanks again for your kind replies. It was encouraging to receive  
your emails.

Best Wishes,

Walter O. Koenig



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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Mar  7 20:34:48 2007
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:34:48 -0500
Subject: Census of Mesoamerican pictorial
Message-ID: <WED.7.MAR.2007.153448.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

From: "Michel Michel" <mroudyk at hotmail.com>
Subject: Census of Mesoamerican pictorial

Dear colleagues,

Much to my surprise did I receive a message by 
Walter Koenig in which he expresses the lack of a 
"comprehensive listing of codices". Of course, 
such a list does exist. The famous Handbook of 
Middel American Indians, Vol. 14 contains exactly 
that: a Census of Native Middle American 
Pictorial Manuscripts elaborated by John Glass in 
collaboration with Donald Robertson. Although it 
was published in 1974, it still is an invaluable 
work that has been our bible ever since it came out.

Now, as this cencus is more than 30 years old the 
bibliographic references, as well as the 
methodological and theoretical focus of 
ethnohistorical studies has changed considerably. 
It has, therefore, become necessary to update the 
1975 census, an undertaking initiated a couple of 
years ago by Maria Casta?eda de la Paz and 
myself. This project is almost finished and has 
been made possible due to the support and 
collaboration of over 40 specialists in pictorial 
studies. The results will be published by the 
University of Texas Press as a Supplement to the Ethnohistorical Sources.

We also decided to include a second volume on 
alphabetical documents in indigenous languages 
which will include articles by renowned 
specialists and an index of known documents. The 
latter, which is still not finished, will be 
presented in a date base and will contain 
references sent to us by numerous colleagues. Of 
course, anybody who has references to 
alphabetical documents written in an Mesoamerican 
language can still sent the information to me 
(mroudyk at hotmail.com or the address given below).

I hope this information is useful to you and will 
avoid people doing the same work over and over again.



Michel R. Oudijk
UNAM
Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas
Seminario de Lenguas Ind?genas
Circuito Mario de la Cueva
Ciudad Universitaria, 04510
M?xico, D.F.
Tlf. +52-(55)-5622-7489
Fax: +52-(55)-5622-7496



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From sylvia at famsi.org  Fri Mar 23 17:11:37 2007
From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:11:37 -0400
Subject: Reports/Informes: Yucu Dzaa, Palo Errado, Q'um'arkaj, Tarasca,
 La Queseria, Champoton, Lamanai, El Raizal
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2007.131137.0400.>

Hello Mesoamericanists,

Newest grantee research reports at FAMSI website are as follows:

The Tututepec Archaeological Project (TAP):
Residential Excavations at Yucu Dzaa, a Late Post Classic
Mixtec Capital on the Coast of Oaxaca, Mexico (2005)
by Marc N. Levine.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05031/index.html

Palo Errado Patterned Wetland Mapping Project, Veracruz, Mexico (2005)
by Charles Leonard Frederick Knight.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05066/index.html


Informes en Espa?ol:

La configuracion sociopolitica en la ciudad de Q'um'arkaj: los Palacios y
los Nimja o Casas Largas del Chinamit Nija'ib' (2006)
por Micaela Raquel Macario Calgua.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06044es/index.html

Etnohistoria y Arqueologia Tarasca (2006)
por Claudia Espejel Carbajal.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06041es/index.html


Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos
del Ingles al Espa?ol:

Proyecto del Balsas Medio: Una Investigacion de la Funcionalidad y
Cronologia de la Ceramica (2006)
por Jennifer Meanwell.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06021es/index.html

La Prospeccion Regional de Asentamientos de Champoton:
Resultados de la Temporada de Campo de 2005
por Jerald D. Ek.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05061es/index.html

Informe de las Investigaciones 1998-1999 sobre la Arqueologia y la
Iconografia de la Fachada de Estuco Policroma de la Estructura N10-28,
en Lamanai, Belice (1999)
por Thomas Mark Shelby.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/98037es/index.html

Centros Politicos de los Antiguos Mayas: Zona Rural de Copan
Relevamiento y Excavacion en El Raizal, Honduras (1998)
por Marcello-Andrea Canuto.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/97038es/index.html

Saludos,

Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html

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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Fri Mar 23 20:14:13 2007
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:14:13 -0700
Subject: Pregunta de los Codices
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2007.131413.0700.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

In the Ixtlixochitol codex there are three very nice drawings of  
mexica men.  One is Nezahuapilli; the other two I don't know.  I am  
doing a clothing project.  Of course, growing up in M?xico, I am very  
familiar with the enaguas and huipil and quechquemetl of modern times.
I doubt they have changed that much in the 400+ years since the  
conquest; but still, are there any drawings of noble women's clothing  
in the detail the Ixtlixochitl codex has for the pillis?  All I can  
find are the line drawing of the "alegres" and the drawing of  
Malinalli next to Cortes talking to Motecuhzoma.

Thanks for any help,
Kier Salmon, Portland, OR
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