From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Nov 13 19:43:36 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:43:36 -0500 Subject: Broken spears original Message-ID: I cannot find my copy of Leon Portilla's Broken Spears and am trying to figure out the original source for the famous phrases: Broken spears lie in the roads We have torn our hair in our grief The houses are roofless now, and their walls Are red with blood. and also The Fall of Tenochtitlán Our cries of grief rise up And our tears rain down for Tlatelolco is lost. -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Tue Nov 13 21:04:02 2007 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:04:02 -0500 Subject: Broken spears original In-Reply-To: <4739FE68.1020703@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: The first quote is from Sahagun's codex (the second probably is too). I don't have it with me, but James Lockhart's "We people here: Nahuatl accounts of the conquest of Mexico" contains the same passage and argues persuasively (well, persuasive to those of us who don't know Nahuatl!) that Leon Portilla mistranslated the first two words -- Lockhart says it should be "broken bones," not "broken spears." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Frye Latin American & Caribbean Studies - LACS International Institute, University of Michigan 2607 School of Social Work Bldg Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106 tel (734) 647 0844 - fax (734) 615-8880 http://www.ii.umich.edu/lacs/ -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of John F. Schwaller Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:44 PM I cannot find my copy of Leon Portilla's Broken Spears and am trying to figure out the original source for the famous phrases: Broken spears lie in the roads We have torn our hair in our grief The houses are roofless now, and their walls Are red with blood. and also The Fall of Tenochtitlán Our cries of grief rise up And our tears rain down for Tlatelolco is lost. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Tue Nov 13 21:28:05 2007 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:28:05 -0800 Subject: Broken spears original In-Reply-To: <4739FE68.1020703@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: In "Visiones de los Vencidos", page XVI, I find the spanish of the first verse, it uses "dardos" (darts not arrows) and is attributed to Manuscrito anonimo de Tlatelolco, 1528. Copenhagen Facsimili edition of 1945 On Nov 13, 2007, at 11:43 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > I cannot find my copy of Leon Portilla's Broken Spears and am > trying to > figure out the original source for the famous phrases: > > Broken spears lie in the roads > We have torn our hair in our grief > The houses are roofless now, and their walls > Are red with blood. > > > and also > > The Fall of Tenochtitlán > Our cries of grief rise up > And our tears rain down > for Tlatelolco is lost. > > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Nov 14 00:26:22 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:26:22 -0500 Subject: Broken spears original Message-ID: I di a bit of sleuthing and in fact it does not come from the Florentine Codex, or the Cantares Mexicanos, but from the Anales de Tlatelolco. The crucial point, already noted is that the original, according to Lockhart, contains the word "omitl" and not "mitl" thus changing broken "spears" or "arrows" to "bones. I continue my search and look forward to any assistance that you can give me along the way. > In "Visiones de los Vencidos", page XVI, I find the spanish of the > first verse, it uses "dardos" (darts not arrows) and is attributed to > Manuscrito anonimo de Tlatelolco, 1528. Copenhagen Facsimili edition > of 1945 > > -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Wed Nov 14 02:43:33 2007 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 02:43:33 +0000 Subject: Broken spears Message-ID: The phrase is kind of a classic here in México. What in English reads: Broken spears lie in the roadsWe have torn our hair in our griefThe houses are roofless now, and their wallsAre red with blood. In Spanish is: En los caminos yacen dardos rotos, los cabellos están esparcidos. Destechadas están las casas, enrojecidos tienen sus muros. The full text comes from BnF Ms 22bis and reads: auh yn otlica omitl xaxamantoc tzontli momoyauhtoc. calli tzontlapouhtoc calli chichiliuhtoc Ocuilti moyacatlamina otlica. Auh yn caltech hahalacatoc yn quatextli Auh yn atl ça yuhqui chichiltic ça yuhqui tlapallatl ca yuh Susanne Klaus (Anales de Tlatelolco, Verlag Anton Saurwein, 1999, pp. 145) translates it as: Y en el camino había huesos quebrantados, cabezas espaciadas, casas detechadas, casas enrojecidas [de sangre]. Gusanos hormigueabana en el camino. Y [las paredes de] las casas estaban embadurnadas de seso Y el agua era roja, toda colorada. Rafael Tena (Anales de Tlatelolco, Cién de México, Conaculta, 2004, pp. 115, n. 63) translates it as: Por los caminos hay huesos rotos, cabellos esparcidos, casas destechadas, [paredes] teñidas de [sangre]; pululan los gusanos en las calles, y por las paredes resbalan los sesos. El agua está enrojecida, como si la hubieran teñido; [...] BnF Ms 22 doesn't include this passage. The philologists can eat their heart out on this one. Michel R. Oudijk Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Wed Nov 14 02:57:10 2007 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 02:57:10 +0000 Subject: Broken Spears Message-ID: And let's not forget the Heinrich Berlin translation (Anales de Tlatelolco, Ediciones Rafael Porrua, 1980, pp. 71): En los caminos yacían huesos rotos, cabellos revueltos, los (techos de las) casas están descubiertos, las viviendas están coloradas (de sangre), abundaban los gusanos en las calles. Los muros están manchados de sesos, el agua era como rojiza, como agua teñida. Michel R. Oudijk Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Nov 14 18:52:10 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:52:10 -0500 Subject: Broken spears original In-Reply-To: <9E4BD3FA-86EE-4503-A289-8B7E53340E32@ipinc.net> Message-ID: Could anyone give me a more exact citation? Is this the same as the "Codice de Tlatelolco" published by Barlow in 1948 and the one published by Mengin in about 1939? Kier Salmon wrote: > In "Visiones de los Vencidos", page XVI, I find the spanish of the > first verse, it uses "dardos" (darts not arrows) and is attributed to > Manuscrito anonimo de Tlatelolco, 1528. Copenhagen Facsimili edition > of 1945 > > > -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Wed Nov 14 21:52:52 2007 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:52:52 +0000 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Yes, it's the very same. It was published in 1948 and again in 1980. Both contain a (poor) photographic reproduction of the Códice de Tlatelolco and a Spanish translation of the BnF Ms. 22. For a transcription of the Nahuatl text see Susanne Klaus (Anales de Tlatelolco, Verlag Anton Saurwein, Markt Schwaben, 1999) or Rafael Tena (Anales de Tlatelolco, Cien de México, Conaculta, Mexico City, 2004). Both have a translation of the Nahuatl text into Spanish. Michel R. Oudijk Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Thu Nov 15 02:30:56 2007 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:30:56 -0500 Subject: (codice de Tlatelolco) Message-ID: As mentioned before, the Codice de Tlatelolco is also transcribed and translated into English (transcription, translation, and annotation by James Lockhart) in the book "We People Here." BTW, I googled the book and saw that it was reviewed in Ethnohistory in 1995 by someone named John Frederick Schwaller. ;-) David Frye ________________________________ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org on behalf of Michel Oudijk Sent: Wed 11/14/2007 4:52 PM To: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org; schwallr at potsdam.edu Subject: [Nahuat-l] (no subject) Yes, it's the very same. It was published in 1948 and again in 1980. Both contain a (poor) photographic reproduction of the Códice de Tlatelolco and a Spanish translation of the BnF Ms. 22. For a transcription of the Nahuatl text see Susanne Klaus (Anales de Tlatelolco, Verlag Anton Saurwein, Markt Schwaben, 1999) or Rafael Tena (Anales de Tlatelolco, Cien de México, Conaculta, Mexico City, 2004). Both have a translation of the Nahuatl text into Spanish. Michel R. Oudijk Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México ________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Fri Nov 16 08:35:30 2007 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:35:30 EST Subject: Film- La Otra Conquista (partly in Nahuatl) Message-ID: Dear Listeros, A while back somebody had inquired about the VHS/DVD release of the film La otra conquista (The Other Conquest). I heard the producer, Salvador Carrasco, being interviewed on the radio last week telling the radio audience that movie was now out on DVD, available at Amazon.com or in major video outlets such as Blockbuster, Best Buy, etc. A good amount of the dialogue is in Nahuatl and the rest is in Spanish. It also has English subtitles. I found a copy this evening at a local video store. Henry Vasquez ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cberry at cine.net Fri Nov 16 17:33:49 2007 From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:33:49 -0800 Subject: Film- La Otra Conquista (partly in Nahuatl) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Henry et al, > A while back somebody had inquired about the VHS/DVD release of the > film La otra conquista (The Other Conquest). I heard the producer, Salvador > Carrasco, being interviewed on the radio last week telling the radio > audience that movie was now out on DVD, available at Amazon.com or in major > video outlets such as Blockbuster, Best Buy, etc. A good amount of the > dialogue is in Nahuatl and the rest is in Spanish. It also has English > subtitles. I had a copy on order with Amazon before it was released, and it arrived a few weeks ago. The movie is as good as I remember it being from its brief theatrical run many years ago. I very highly recommend this film to everyone on this list. I've been studying Nahuatl sporadically during the years since first seeing the film, and was once reasonably fluent in Spanish, though years with little practice have eroded that fluency a great deal. Thus, I had the gratifying experience of being able to disagree with the English subtitle translations of two different languages in one movie. :) Regards, Craig -- Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ "So we stumble and we stagger, down the snakes and up the ladder, to the tower where the blessed hours chime." - Leonard Cohen, "Closing Time" _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cindy at grito-poetry.com Sat Nov 17 00:02:40 2007 From: cindy at grito-poetry.com (Cindy Williams Gutierrez) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:02:40 -0800 Subject: 1450 = 10-Rabbit? Message-ID: Hello, All: I'm working on a play that takes place in Huexotzinco in 1450. Using the calculator on www.azteccalendar.com , I determined that (March 20th) 1450 is the year 10-Rabbit. However, other sources cite that 10-Rabbit is 1502 and 1034. Is this possible? Thank you for your kind assistance. Regards, Cindy WG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sat Nov 17 09:50:58 2007 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:50:58 +0000 Subject: 1450 = 10-Rabbit? In-Reply-To: <003b01c828ad$2c1499e0$6701a8c0@CINDYDELLPC> Message-ID: --- Cindy Williams Gutierrez wrote: > I'm working on a play that takes place in Huexotzinco in 1450. Using > the > calculator on www.azteccalendar.com > I > determined that (March 20th) 1450 is the year 10-Rabbit. However, > other > sources cite that 10-Rabbit is 1502 and 1034. Is this possible? See http://www.azteccalendar.com/azteccalendar.html at "The xiuhpohualli", and note that 1502 - 1450 = 52, and 1450 - 1034 = 416 = 52 x 8. The names of the 365-day years cycle through 1 to 13 House, Rabbit, Reed, Flint knife (Calli, Tochtli, Acatl, Tecpatl). Thus the year names recur each 52 years. Citlalyani _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From sylvia at famsi.org Wed Nov 21 19:40:07 2007 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:40:07 -0500 Subject: New Research, Grantee Reports & Traducciones en Espanol Message-ID: Hello Mesoamericanists, Here's what's new at FAMSI website: "Ancient Chalcatzingo" In the 1970s the Chalcatzingo Archaeological Project, co-directed by Jorge Angulo, Raul Arana and David Grove, sought to gather data on the Formative period village--its dwellings, public architecture, and material culture--in order to better understand the site's evolution and also its relationship with the Gulf coast Olmec. This book, presenting the results of that research, is the most comprehensive and detailed report of any Middle Formative period site in central Mexico. David Grove offers his book "Ancient Chalcatzingo," in a downloadable format: http://www.famsi.org/research/grove/chalcatzingo/index.html Newest grantee research reports include: Ritual Diversity and Social Identities: A Study of Mortuary Behaviors at Teotihuacan, Mexico (2006) by Sarah C. Clayton. http://www.famsi.org/reports/06046/index.html In the Shadow of Popocatepetl: Archaeological Survey and Mapping at Tlaxcala, Mexico (2006) by Lane F. Fargher. http://www.famsi.org/reports/06082/index.html Ethnicity and Isotopes at Mayapan (2005) by Lori E. Wright. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05068/index.html Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos del Ingles al Espanol: Investigaciones Arqueologicas en las Cuevas Candelaria y La Lima, Alta Verapaz, Guatemala (2003) por Brent Woodfill. http://www.famsi.org/reports/02083es/index.html Uso Ritual de la Ceramica en el Preclasico Temprano y Medio en los Sitios de Blackman Eddy y Cahal Pech, Belice (2003) por M. Kathryn Brown. http://www.famsi.org/reports/02066es/index.html Proyecto de Rescate en Naranjo: Nuevos Datos de la Guatemala del Preclasico (2006) por Barbara Arroyo. http://www.famsi.org/reports/06109es/index.html Investigacion Bioarqueologica de la Estructura de la Antigua Poblacion de Mayapan (2005) por Stanley Serafin. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05033es/index.html La Tecnologia de los Antiguos Mosaicos Mesoamericanos: Una Investigacion Experimental de Super Pegamentos Alternativos (2006) por Frances F. Berdan. http://www.famsi.org/reports/06015es/index.html Reconocimiento arqueologico en Tixan: exploraciones en el sur del Parque Nacional de la Sierra del Lacandon, Peten, Guatemala (2005) por Andrew K. Scherer. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05027es/index.html Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivist Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html http://www.famsi.org/spanish/ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cindy at grito-poetry.com Fri Nov 30 20:19:54 2007 From: cindy at grito-poetry.com (Cindy Williams Gutierrez) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:19:54 -0800 Subject: Nahua Message-ID: Hello, all: I was wondering if the Nahuas referred to themselves as "Nahua" or just as individual tribes (e.g., Mexica, Acolhua, etc.). Does the term "Nahua' originate from the fact that the tribes in the central valley of Mexico all spoke Nahuatl? Does the word "Nahua" mean anything in Nahuatl? Thank you, Cindy WG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Fri Nov 30 21:17:52 2007 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:17:52 +0000 Subject: Nahua In-Reply-To: <000001c8338e$5f41cea0$6701a8c0@CINDYDELLPC> Message-ID: --- Cindy Williams Gutierrez wrote: > I was wondering if the Nahuas referred to themselves as "Nahua" or > just as > individual tribes (e.g., Mexica, Acolhua, etc.). Does the term > "Nahua' > originate from the fact that the tribes in the central valley of > Mexico all > spoke Nahuatl? Does the word "Nahua" mean anything in Nahuatl? >>From Frances Karttunen's dictionary: na_hua-tl = someone who makes an agreeable sound, someone who speaks my language na_huatlahto_l-li = the Nahuatl language na_huatla_cah (plural) = the Nahuatl-speaking nation The root *na_hua- seems to basically mean "audible", "intelligible", "clear". Citlalyani _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From webmaster at chicanoforums.com Fri Nov 30 23:41:25 2007 From: webmaster at chicanoforums.com (Webmaster) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:41:25 -0800 Subject: About 2, 000 rare languages may disappear on Earth in 100 years Message-ID: http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/29-11-2007/101929-language-0 -Daniel -- Webmaster http://chicanoforums.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Nov 13 19:43:36 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:43:36 -0500 Subject: Broken spears original Message-ID: I cannot find my copy of Leon Portilla's Broken Spears and am trying to figure out the original source for the famous phrases: Broken spears lie in the roads We have torn our hair in our grief The houses are roofless now, and their walls Are red with blood. and also The Fall of Tenochtitl?n Our cries of grief rise up And our tears rain down for Tlatelolco is lost. -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Tue Nov 13 21:04:02 2007 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:04:02 -0500 Subject: Broken spears original In-Reply-To: <4739FE68.1020703@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: The first quote is from Sahagun's codex (the second probably is too). I don't have it with me, but James Lockhart's "We people here: Nahuatl accounts of the conquest of Mexico" contains the same passage and argues persuasively (well, persuasive to those of us who don't know Nahuatl!) that Leon Portilla mistranslated the first two words -- Lockhart says it should be "broken bones," not "broken spears." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Frye Latin American & Caribbean Studies - LACS International Institute, University of Michigan 2607 School of Social Work Bldg Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106 tel (734) 647 0844 - fax (734) 615-8880 http://www.ii.umich.edu/lacs/ -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of John F. Schwaller Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:44 PM I cannot find my copy of Leon Portilla's Broken Spears and am trying to figure out the original source for the famous phrases: Broken spears lie in the roads We have torn our hair in our grief The houses are roofless now, and their walls Are red with blood. and also The Fall of Tenochtitl?n Our cries of grief rise up And our tears rain down for Tlatelolco is lost. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Tue Nov 13 21:28:05 2007 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:28:05 -0800 Subject: Broken spears original In-Reply-To: <4739FE68.1020703@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: In "Visiones de los Vencidos", page XVI, I find the spanish of the first verse, it uses "dardos" (darts not arrows) and is attributed to Manuscrito anonimo de Tlatelolco, 1528. Copenhagen Facsimili edition of 1945 On Nov 13, 2007, at 11:43 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > I cannot find my copy of Leon Portilla's Broken Spears and am > trying to > figure out the original source for the famous phrases: > > Broken spears lie in the roads > We have torn our hair in our grief > The houses are roofless now, and their walls > Are red with blood. > > > and also > > The Fall of Tenochtitl?n > Our cries of grief rise up > And our tears rain down > for Tlatelolco is lost. > > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Nov 14 00:26:22 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:26:22 -0500 Subject: Broken spears original Message-ID: I di a bit of sleuthing and in fact it does not come from the Florentine Codex, or the Cantares Mexicanos, but from the Anales de Tlatelolco. The crucial point, already noted is that the original, according to Lockhart, contains the word "omitl" and not "mitl" thus changing broken "spears" or "arrows" to "bones. I continue my search and look forward to any assistance that you can give me along the way. > In "Visiones de los Vencidos", page XVI, I find the spanish of the > first verse, it uses "dardos" (darts not arrows) and is attributed to > Manuscrito anonimo de Tlatelolco, 1528. Copenhagen Facsimili edition > of 1945 > > -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Wed Nov 14 02:43:33 2007 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 02:43:33 +0000 Subject: Broken spears Message-ID: The phrase is kind of a classic here in M?xico. What in English reads: Broken spears lie in the roadsWe have torn our hair in our griefThe houses are roofless now, and their wallsAre red with blood. In Spanish is: En los caminos yacen dardos rotos, los cabellos est?n esparcidos. Destechadas est?n las casas, enrojecidos tienen sus muros. The full text comes from BnF Ms 22bis and reads: auh yn otlica omitl xaxamantoc tzontli momoyauhtoc. calli tzontlapouhtoc calli chichiliuhtoc Ocuilti moyacatlamina otlica. Auh yn caltech hahalacatoc yn quatextli Auh yn atl ?a yuhqui chichiltic ?a yuhqui tlapallatl ca yuh Susanne Klaus (Anales de Tlatelolco, Verlag Anton Saurwein, 1999, pp. 145) translates it as: Y en el camino hab?a huesos quebrantados, cabezas espaciadas, casas detechadas, casas enrojecidas [de sangre]. Gusanos hormigueabana en el camino. Y [las paredes de] las casas estaban embadurnadas de seso Y el agua era roja, toda colorada. Rafael Tena (Anales de Tlatelolco, Ci?n de M?xico, Conaculta, 2004, pp. 115, n. 63) translates it as: Por los caminos hay huesos rotos, cabellos esparcidos, casas destechadas, [paredes] te?idas de [sangre]; pululan los gusanos en las calles, y por las paredes resbalan los sesos. El agua est? enrojecida, como si la hubieran te?ido; [...] BnF Ms 22 doesn't include this passage. The philologists can eat their heart out on this one. Michel R. Oudijk Seminario de Lenguas Ind?genas Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Wed Nov 14 02:57:10 2007 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 02:57:10 +0000 Subject: Broken Spears Message-ID: And let's not forget the Heinrich Berlin translation (Anales de Tlatelolco, Ediciones Rafael Porrua, 1980, pp. 71): En los caminos yac?an huesos rotos, cabellos revueltos, los (techos de las) casas est?n descubiertos, las viviendas est?n coloradas (de sangre), abundaban los gusanos en las calles. Los muros est?n manchados de sesos, el agua era como rojiza, como agua te?ida. Michel R. Oudijk Seminario de Lenguas Ind?genas Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Nov 14 18:52:10 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:52:10 -0500 Subject: Broken spears original In-Reply-To: <9E4BD3FA-86EE-4503-A289-8B7E53340E32@ipinc.net> Message-ID: Could anyone give me a more exact citation? Is this the same as the "Codice de Tlatelolco" published by Barlow in 1948 and the one published by Mengin in about 1939? Kier Salmon wrote: > In "Visiones de los Vencidos", page XVI, I find the spanish of the > first verse, it uses "dardos" (darts not arrows) and is attributed to > Manuscrito anonimo de Tlatelolco, 1528. Copenhagen Facsimili edition > of 1945 > > > -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Wed Nov 14 21:52:52 2007 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:52:52 +0000 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Yes, it's the very same. It was published in 1948 and again in 1980. Both contain a (poor) photographic reproduction of the C?dice de Tlatelolco and a Spanish translation of the BnF Ms. 22. For a transcription of the Nahuatl text see Susanne Klaus (Anales de Tlatelolco, Verlag Anton Saurwein, Markt Schwaben, 1999) or Rafael Tena (Anales de Tlatelolco, Cien de M?xico, Conaculta, Mexico City, 2004). Both have a translation of the Nahuatl text into Spanish. Michel R. Oudijk Seminario de Lenguas Ind?genas Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Thu Nov 15 02:30:56 2007 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:30:56 -0500 Subject: (codice de Tlatelolco) Message-ID: As mentioned before, the Codice de Tlatelolco is also transcribed and translated into English (transcription, translation, and annotation by James Lockhart) in the book "We People Here." BTW, I googled the book and saw that it was reviewed in Ethnohistory in 1995 by someone named John Frederick Schwaller. ;-) David Frye ________________________________ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org on behalf of Michel Oudijk Sent: Wed 11/14/2007 4:52 PM To: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org; schwallr at potsdam.edu Subject: [Nahuat-l] (no subject) Yes, it's the very same. It was published in 1948 and again in 1980. Both contain a (poor) photographic reproduction of the C?dice de Tlatelolco and a Spanish translation of the BnF Ms. 22. For a transcription of the Nahuatl text see Susanne Klaus (Anales de Tlatelolco, Verlag Anton Saurwein, Markt Schwaben, 1999) or Rafael Tena (Anales de Tlatelolco, Cien de M?xico, Conaculta, Mexico City, 2004). Both have a translation of the Nahuatl text into Spanish. Michel R. Oudijk Seminario de Lenguas Ind?genas Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico ________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Fri Nov 16 08:35:30 2007 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:35:30 EST Subject: Film- La Otra Conquista (partly in Nahuatl) Message-ID: Dear Listeros, A while back somebody had inquired about the VHS/DVD release of the film La otra conquista (The Other Conquest). I heard the producer, Salvador Carrasco, being interviewed on the radio last week telling the radio audience that movie was now out on DVD, available at Amazon.com or in major video outlets such as Blockbuster, Best Buy, etc. A good amount of the dialogue is in Nahuatl and the rest is in Spanish. It also has English subtitles. I found a copy this evening at a local video store. Henry Vasquez ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cberry at cine.net Fri Nov 16 17:33:49 2007 From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:33:49 -0800 Subject: Film- La Otra Conquista (partly in Nahuatl) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Henry et al, > A while back somebody had inquired about the VHS/DVD release of the > film La otra conquista (The Other Conquest). I heard the producer, Salvador > Carrasco, being interviewed on the radio last week telling the radio > audience that movie was now out on DVD, available at Amazon.com or in major > video outlets such as Blockbuster, Best Buy, etc. A good amount of the > dialogue is in Nahuatl and the rest is in Spanish. It also has English > subtitles. I had a copy on order with Amazon before it was released, and it arrived a few weeks ago. The movie is as good as I remember it being from its brief theatrical run many years ago. I very highly recommend this film to everyone on this list. I've been studying Nahuatl sporadically during the years since first seeing the film, and was once reasonably fluent in Spanish, though years with little practice have eroded that fluency a great deal. Thus, I had the gratifying experience of being able to disagree with the English subtitle translations of two different languages in one movie. :) Regards, Craig -- Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ "So we stumble and we stagger, down the snakes and up the ladder, to the tower where the blessed hours chime." - Leonard Cohen, "Closing Time" _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cindy at grito-poetry.com Sat Nov 17 00:02:40 2007 From: cindy at grito-poetry.com (Cindy Williams Gutierrez) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:02:40 -0800 Subject: 1450 = 10-Rabbit? Message-ID: Hello, All: I'm working on a play that takes place in Huexotzinco in 1450. Using the calculator on www.azteccalendar.com , I determined that (March 20th) 1450 is the year 10-Rabbit. However, other sources cite that 10-Rabbit is 1502 and 1034. Is this possible? Thank you for your kind assistance. Regards, Cindy WG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sat Nov 17 09:50:58 2007 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:50:58 +0000 Subject: 1450 = 10-Rabbit? In-Reply-To: <003b01c828ad$2c1499e0$6701a8c0@CINDYDELLPC> Message-ID: --- Cindy Williams Gutierrez wrote: > I'm working on a play that takes place in Huexotzinco in 1450. Using > the > calculator on www.azteccalendar.com > I > determined that (March 20th) 1450 is the year 10-Rabbit. However, > other > sources cite that 10-Rabbit is 1502 and 1034. Is this possible? See http://www.azteccalendar.com/azteccalendar.html at "The xiuhpohualli", and note that 1502 - 1450 = 52, and 1450 - 1034 = 416 = 52 x 8. The names of the 365-day years cycle through 1 to 13 House, Rabbit, Reed, Flint knife (Calli, Tochtli, Acatl, Tecpatl). Thus the year names recur each 52 years. Citlalyani _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From sylvia at famsi.org Wed Nov 21 19:40:07 2007 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:40:07 -0500 Subject: New Research, Grantee Reports & Traducciones en Espanol Message-ID: Hello Mesoamericanists, Here's what's new at FAMSI website: "Ancient Chalcatzingo" In the 1970s the Chalcatzingo Archaeological Project, co-directed by Jorge Angulo, Raul Arana and David Grove, sought to gather data on the Formative period village--its dwellings, public architecture, and material culture--in order to better understand the site's evolution and also its relationship with the Gulf coast Olmec. This book, presenting the results of that research, is the most comprehensive and detailed report of any Middle Formative period site in central Mexico. David Grove offers his book "Ancient Chalcatzingo," in a downloadable format: http://www.famsi.org/research/grove/chalcatzingo/index.html Newest grantee research reports include: Ritual Diversity and Social Identities: A Study of Mortuary Behaviors at Teotihuacan, Mexico (2006) by Sarah C. Clayton. http://www.famsi.org/reports/06046/index.html In the Shadow of Popocatepetl: Archaeological Survey and Mapping at Tlaxcala, Mexico (2006) by Lane F. Fargher. http://www.famsi.org/reports/06082/index.html Ethnicity and Isotopes at Mayapan (2005) by Lori E. Wright. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05068/index.html Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos del Ingles al Espanol: Investigaciones Arqueologicas en las Cuevas Candelaria y La Lima, Alta Verapaz, Guatemala (2003) por Brent Woodfill. http://www.famsi.org/reports/02083es/index.html Uso Ritual de la Ceramica en el Preclasico Temprano y Medio en los Sitios de Blackman Eddy y Cahal Pech, Belice (2003) por M. Kathryn Brown. http://www.famsi.org/reports/02066es/index.html Proyecto de Rescate en Naranjo: Nuevos Datos de la Guatemala del Preclasico (2006) por Barbara Arroyo. http://www.famsi.org/reports/06109es/index.html Investigacion Bioarqueologica de la Estructura de la Antigua Poblacion de Mayapan (2005) por Stanley Serafin. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05033es/index.html La Tecnologia de los Antiguos Mosaicos Mesoamericanos: Una Investigacion Experimental de Super Pegamentos Alternativos (2006) por Frances F. Berdan. http://www.famsi.org/reports/06015es/index.html Reconocimiento arqueologico en Tixan: exploraciones en el sur del Parque Nacional de la Sierra del Lacandon, Peten, Guatemala (2005) por Andrew K. Scherer. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05027es/index.html Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivist Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html http://www.famsi.org/spanish/ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cindy at grito-poetry.com Fri Nov 30 20:19:54 2007 From: cindy at grito-poetry.com (Cindy Williams Gutierrez) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:19:54 -0800 Subject: Nahua Message-ID: Hello, all: I was wondering if the Nahuas referred to themselves as "Nahua" or just as individual tribes (e.g., Mexica, Acolhua, etc.). Does the term "Nahua' originate from the fact that the tribes in the central valley of Mexico all spoke Nahuatl? Does the word "Nahua" mean anything in Nahuatl? Thank you, Cindy WG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Fri Nov 30 21:17:52 2007 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:17:52 +0000 Subject: Nahua In-Reply-To: <000001c8338e$5f41cea0$6701a8c0@CINDYDELLPC> Message-ID: --- Cindy Williams Gutierrez wrote: > I was wondering if the Nahuas referred to themselves as "Nahua" or > just as > individual tribes (e.g., Mexica, Acolhua, etc.). Does the term > "Nahua' > originate from the fact that the tribes in the central valley of > Mexico all > spoke Nahuatl? Does the word "Nahua" mean anything in Nahuatl? >>From Frances Karttunen's dictionary: na_hua-tl = someone who makes an agreeable sound, someone who speaks my language na_huatlahto_l-li = the Nahuatl language na_huatla_cah (plural) = the Nahuatl-speaking nation The root *na_hua- seems to basically mean "audible", "intelligible", "clear". Citlalyani _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From webmaster at chicanoforums.com Fri Nov 30 23:41:25 2007 From: webmaster at chicanoforums.com (Webmaster) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:41:25 -0800 Subject: About 2, 000 rare languages may disappear on Earth in 100 years Message-ID: http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/29-11-2007/101929-language-0 -Daniel -- Webmaster http://chicanoforums.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl