From k_salmon at ipinc.net Mon Oct 8 22:45:30 2007 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:45:30 -0700 Subject: Skulls and Colorines Message-ID: I was asked about 'Tzompanteuctli.' It was found in Bierhorst's translation of the Codex Chimalpopoca as rulers of Cuitlahuac and/or some form of sorcerer. I looked up in my several dictionaries and found that according to Francis Karttunen the pronunciation of the second vowel is what distinguishes the tree "colorin" from the "skull rack" of the pyramids. I also found references to a village in "Valle de Toluca" called this way whose inhabitants might have been called Tzompanteuctli. Does anybody know more the possible use of this word as applied to a people or profession? Kier _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From webmaster at chicanoforums.com Mon Oct 8 23:54:06 2007 From: webmaster at chicanoforums.com (Webmaster) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:54:06 -0700 Subject: Taking a Nahua name Message-ID: Hello, Can anyone offer any advice on how to select an Nahua - Mexica first and last name? Sincerely, Daniel Maldonado -- Webmaster http://chicanoforums.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Tue Oct 9 02:36:18 2007 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2 at cox.net) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:36:18 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl in Oaxaca..... being killed off? Message-ID: I just returned from a very interesting week end in New Jersey. I went to give some Danza Azteca presentations at some schools and to help start a community dance group. I met a family that is from Oaxaca, and everyone assumed that they were Mixteco, including themselves. But one of the sons (age about 20) told me that his grand-uncles spoke "mexicano". I assumed they meant Mixteco, but then he said: "I only remember some words. he taught me to count to five, 'ce, ome, yei, nahui.' He also said something like 'Axcan melahuac'......" Needless to say I was surprised and excited to hear Nahuatl from an area in Oaxaca. Their home village in in the Mixteca Alta, but nobody could tell me the name of the place. They had grown up in New Brunswick, New Jersey since they were small. The only thing they could say was that it was a town near "Pulta" Oaxaca. The web gives us this: /http://putla.com/historia_de_putla.php / and: Putla de Guerrero is located 130 km north of Pinotepa Nacional on hwy 125 (only 5 km off of the edge of my regional map ). The town sits at an altitude of 750 meters. *Local indigenous cultures are primarily Mixtec and Cuicatec. * (from: /http://www.tomzap.com/putla.html/) This site tells of a tragic attack by paramilitary soldiers from a larger Oaxacan town that wants to force the smaller town to cut down its old growth tress. The villagers want to protect the trees and create a sustainable ecoturism industry: *Al pueblo de Mexico:* *Se le informa, que el día *15 de noviembre del 2006* un grupo de Paramilitar de Santa Catarina Yosonotu, San Pedro Yosotatu, pistoleros pertenecientes ala organización MULT y agentes de la Policía Ministerial de Tlaxiaco ubicados en La Comunidad de Lagunilla, encabezados por los profesores Gregorio Morales y Luís Morales Cruz, entre otros, produjeron varios hechos ilícitos en contra de los campesinos del municipio de Santa Lucia Monteverde Putla Oaxaca, los cuales resultaron en tragedia. * *A las 8:20 am aproximadamente, asesinaron con armas de alto poder exclusivo del ejército, al ciudadano Armando Marcelino Hernández Aparicio de la comunidad de Agua del Toro, perteneciente a Santa Lucia Monteverde, lo emboscaron en el paraje Llano Ondo, de la jurisdicción de Monteverde y asesinaron a sangre fría. El occiso se dirigía hacia sus parcelas y cuando fue emboscado.* *En la misma fecha este grupo paramilitar ingresaron a los terrenos de Altamira, para tender una emboscada y asesinar a campesinos de Santa Lucia Monteverde. Durante la emboscada balacearon al agente y auxiliar de la Agencia Municipal Unión Altamira, quienes caminaban hacia sus parcelas. Recibieron múltiples impactos de cuernos de chivo. Lograron ser rescatados por otros vecinos para ser trasladados al hospital general de la ciudad de Tlaxiaco, para después ser trasladados de emergencia ala ciudad de Oaxaca, en estado critico. * *De este caso se entero el* ejército mexicano* quienes visitaron el municipio el siguiente día. Por parte del municipio se les solicito apoyo para rescatar el cuerpo sin vida del occiso. Se movilizaron hacia el paraje a rescatar el cuerpo, pero fueron atacados por el grupo paramilitar. Los soldados no respondieron la agresión y lograron llevar el cuerpo al municipio de Monteverde. * *Se presento el medico forense de la H. Ciudad de Tlaxiaco, quien se presento para practicar la autopsia de rigor. El perito en su informe forense, determino que la causa de muerto fueron múltiples impactos de arma de fuego de alto calibre, en el vientre, hombros y piernas. * *El día 16 de noviembre alas 9:00 pm trataron de invadir la agencia de la Unión Altamira perteneciente al municipio de Santa Lucia Monteverde, usando armas de alto poder e incendiando casas de madera. Causando terror entre la población de Santa Lucia Monteverde. Los campesinos que habitan Altamira huyeron hacia el cerro llevando sus pocas pertenencias. En esos momentos se encontraba un grupo de estudiantes de la UAM-Xochimilco y Universidad Autonoma Chapingo, quienes se encontraban haciendo labores de investigación en la zona, estos estudiantes salieron horrorizados del Municipio y del estado de Oaxaca. * *Fue hasta la entrada del ejército mexicano que este grupo paramilitar de retiro de la zona, no sin antes incendiar 7 casas y robarse ganado. * *Las autoridades municipales de Monteverde, se presentaron ante el gobernador del estado y agente del ministerio publico del distrito de Putla, para levantar la diligencia del estos hechos. * **Debido a estos hechos tan violentos solicitamos la intervención del ejército Mexicano para el desarme de este grupo paramilitar y el esclarecimiento de este brutal asesinato que vuelve a perturbar la tranquilidad que se vivía en la sierra sur de la mixteca oaxaqueña. Sin olvidar el pago de los daños y la detención de todos los involucrados*. * *H. Ayuntamiento de Santa Lucia Monteverde. * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From pcrossley at western.edu Tue Oct 9 04:45:22 2007 From: pcrossley at western.edu (Phil Crossley) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 22:45:22 -0600 Subject: skulls and colorines Message-ID: I can't contribute to answering Kier's question (but I always enjoy the learned responses to such questions). However, I want to note that the mountain just south of San Luis Tlaxialtemalco, or between Milpa Alta and San Luis/San Gregorio, is named Teuctli, and I'd love to hear the translation of that name in people's responses to Kier. Thanks, Phil Crossley _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Oct 9 10:39:13 2007 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 06:39:13 -0400 Subject: Teuctli Message-ID: The Nahuatl word teuctli--phonetically bisyllabic [te:kw.tli] and more often than not in older Nahuatl texts misleadingly written "tecuhtli"--means 'lord, ruler' and is found in many compounds such as yohualteuctli, mictlanteuctli, etc. (Joe can provide a list if there is interest.) In some compounds the stem loses the rounding of the final consonant, and it's just tec-, as in tecpan [te:kpan] 'palace; 'where the ruler is located' and tecpillotl [te:kpillo:tl] 'nobility, good breeding.' There is a pervasive pan-Mesoamerican myth of local heros withdrawing into hills/mountains to sleep until such time as they sally forth to aid their people. This is true of the volcanic cone near Milpa Alta known as Teuctli. In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the meaning of 'boss.' Fran _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tecvm at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 15:55:37 2007 From: tecvm at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Diego_V=E1squez_Monterroso?=) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 08:55:37 -0700 Subject: Filosofa nhuatl Message-ID: Hola a todos: Quisiera preguntarles si alguno de ustedes podría facilitarme alguna información con respecto a la filosofía náhuatl. Encontré el libro de León-Portilla, sin embargo está en una biblioteca donde no lo puedo sacar entonces me da mucho problema consultarlo. Si alguien pudiera ayudarme muchas gracias por adelantado. Saludos, Diego. ____________________________________________________________________________________ ¡Sé un mejor besador! Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos. http://telemundo.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Oct 9 16:29:21 2007 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:29:21 -0500 Subject: Teuctli Message-ID: Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by José Concepción Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear [te:ku?tli]. In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find "tecu'tli, (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root with the kw > k shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, oficina." El Maestro Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern Mexico City). I assume that the unusual (for a native speaker) pronunciation [te:ku?tli] is the result of influence from Mexico City academics of the Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you have any information or comments on this? See: Flores Arce, José Concepción (Xochime’), Nitlahtoa, titlahtoa ¡Ma’titla’tocan nahualla’tolli! ¡Hablemos náhuatl!, Diálogos de apoyo para practicar la lengua náhuatl del maestro Xochime, 2a. ed., Esperanza Meneses Minor, asesora, México, Ce-Acatl, 2000. If anyone is interested in the recordings (the third edition is on CD) and book, they are available from the folks at Ce Acatl: http://www.laneta.apc.org/ceacatl/. Saludos, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Oct 9 18:19:49 2007 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:19:49 -0400 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:29 PM, David Wright wrote: > Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, > with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a > spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the > meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by José Concepción > Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear > [te:ku?tli]. In my experience with M.A. Nahuatl, the labialized [kw] has simplified to [w], so te:uctli is pronounced [te:wtli] (the name of the local sacred mountain). The 'boss, bureaucrat' word derived from the spelling pronunciation is pronounced [te:kohtli] with the [h] here representing the local pronunciation of the glottal stop. But the o/u distinction being nonsignificant in most varieties of spoken Nahuatl, including M.A. as I know it, it might be pronounced more like [te:kuhtli]. > In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find "tecu'tli, > (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root with the kw > k > shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, oficina." El Maestro > Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern Mexico City). I assume > that the unusual (for a native speaker) pronunciation [te:ku?tli] > is the result of influence from Mexico City academics of the > Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you have any information or > comments on this? It might well be. I just think of it as spelling pronunciation. The spelling "tecuhtli" managed to mislead Thelma Sullivan, who used the word in her Compendio as an example of how the -tli form of the absolutive suffix is used after saltillo (glottal stop). Perhaps this was inherited from her teacher, who was none other than Garibay. Fran -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Oct 9 21:33:13 2007 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 16:33:13 -0500 Subject: Teuctli Message-ID: Yup, Sullivan's (Compendio de la gramática náhuatl, 1976) orthography and misconceptions about phonology, when plotted out in a table, correspond exactly to those of Garibay (Llave del náhuatl, 1940). Both texts, which have been reprinted several times since their initial appearance, continue to influence people's view of colonial central Mexican Nahuatl. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tecvm at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 17:10:03 2007 From: tecvm at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Diego_V=E1squez_Monterroso?=) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:10:03 -0700 Subject: Nhuatl Message-ID: Hola a todos: Respondiendo a la pregunta de Juanita, sobre dónde me encuentro, pues vivo en Guatemala, así que aquí es un poco difícil encontrar materiales sobre cualquier cosa relacionada con lo náhuatl. Agradecería si conocen también información disponible en internet; también me interesa aprender náhuatl, así que también quisiera saber si conocen direcciones en internet o cursos, gramáticas y diccionarios en línea. De antemano muchas gracias. Un saludo desde Guatemala, Diego. ____________________________________________________________________________________ ¡Sé un mejor besador! Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos. http://telemundo.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Oct 10 12:23:40 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:23:40 -0400 Subject: THE AZTEC EMPIRE: ICONOGRAPHIES AND IDEOLOGIES OF POWER Message-ID: Friday, November 2 University of Connecticut School of Fine Arts Sackler Art and Archaeology Symposium THE AZTEC EMPIRE: ICONOGRAPHIES AND IDEOLOGIES OF POWER Beverly and Raymond Sackler Art and Archaeology Lectures Symposium, 2007 Friday, November 2nd, 2007 University of Connecticut To examine empire in the context of Aztec Mesoamerica is to think critically about the dynamics of power. Comparative study of the Aztec empire – especially of the cultural, political and economic structures it used to assert control –furthers our understanding of diverse imperial polities, and provides crucial insight into the phenomenon of imperialism itself. From the religious and political significance of Templo Mayor sculptures, to commoner arts and their influence on monumental stone sculpture of the Aztec state; from the material evidence of temple architecture to pottery, the mechanisms of Aztec imperial rule have much to teach us today. The 6th annual Beverly and Raymond Sackler Art and Archaeology Symposium investigates the nature of Aztec imperial organization. The symposium addresses issues such as the Aztec promotion of hegemonic (vs. strictly military) control over a diverse group of quasi-independent city-states, and imperial integration of economics, religion and politics in state rituals. Speakers will also examine the complex interactions between ruling metropole and subject peoples. Through these interactions, the central Aztec state negotiated economic and social stability with its peripheral neighbors so as to counteract political instability. Schedule for Friday November 2nd, 2007 Dr. David G. Woods, Dean of the School of Fine Arts, University of Connecticut 2 p.m.: Introduction Dr. Michael E. Smith, Arizona State University 2:15 p.m. “Material culture of the Aztec Empire in central Mexico: local, regional, and global patterns.” Dr. Cecelia Klein, University of California, Los Angeles 3:00 p.m. “From Clay to Stone: The Role of Ceramic Figurines in the Formation of the Official Aztec Pantheon.” Tea Break Dr. Elizabeth Brumfiel, Northwestern University 4:00 p.m. "Cosmology at home" Dr. Eulogio Guzmán, Boston Museum of Fine Arts School/Tufts University 4:45p.m. “Iconographic Variability: Shifting Meanings in Aztec Sculpture and the Political Expansion of the Mexica State” Location The Beverly and Raymond Sackler Art and Archaeology Lectures Symposium is open to the University community and the greater public. Admission is free and a reception follows. The symposium will be held at the Thomas. J. Dodd Research Center, 405 Babbidge Road, on the Storrs campus of the University of Connecticut. The Beverly and Raymond Sackler Art and Archaeology Lectures The Beverly and Raymond Sackler Art and Archaeology Lectures, now in their sixth year, provide a unique opportunity to explore critical issues in the fields of Archaeology and Art History on the University of Connecticut campus at Storrs. This annual symposium fosters an exchange of ideas between scholars, faculty, and students across the University of Connecticut campus, and throughout the New England area. Dr. Raymond Sackler and his wife Beverly have generously provided funding to make this event possible. For more information and directions, please explore this website, or contact Professor Robin Greeley at robin.greeley at uconn.edu. http://www.art.uconn.edu/events/sackler/sackler_2007.htm -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From webmaster at chicanoforums.com Mon Oct 15 02:27:49 2007 From: webmaster at chicanoforums.com (Webmaster) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:27:49 -0700 Subject: Nahuas de Morelos Message-ID: Ventana a mi Comunidad - Nahuas de Morelos / Nahuatl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v Serie de videos Ventana a mi Comunidad. Una producción de Videoservicios Profesionales SA de CV para la Coordinación General de Educación Intercultural y Bilingüe de la SEP, México. http://ventana.ilce.edu.mx -Daniel -- Webmaster http://chicanoforums.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From webmaster at chicanoforums.com Mon Oct 15 18:13:45 2007 From: webmaster at chicanoforums.com (Webmaster) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:13:45 -0700 Subject: Ventana a mi Comunidad - Nahuas de Morelos / Nahuatl Message-ID: Correct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9PT96N9Zu4 Sorry for the inconvenience. Daniel -- Webmaster http://chicanoforums.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Amapohuani at aol.com Tue Oct 16 03:13:30 2007 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:13:30 EDT Subject: query on Nahua poet Message-ID: Listeros: Someone emailed me today with the following question: "Have you heard of the Nahua poet, Delfino Hernández Hernández?" I seem to vaguely remember the name. Anybody know something about this gentleman? Thanks. Barry D. Sell ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 16:32:02 2007 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:32:02 -0700 Subject: query on Nahua poet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This page has some of his poetry http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2004/09/20/oja89-poetas.html Referenced in this book http://books.google.com/books?id=fKWaEv47kPoC &pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=%22delfino+hern%C3%A1ndez+hern%C3%A1ndez%22&source=we b&ots=ceCnGWR-ty&sig=MibQBghRQTIqpbuGwQ7yN8aC2E0#PPA108,M1 Delfino Hernández Hernández. “Xochitlajtouani: El Poeta” in Yancuic Nahua Zazanilli: Nueva Narrativa Mexico City: Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, 1985 Newberry Library: PM4068.H47 Translator of Video to Nahuatl http://www.huicholesyplaguicidas.org/huichol_cas/cont/docs/gvid_05.pdf http://redescolar.ilce.edu.mx/redescolar/biblioteca/literatura/voces_antigua s_raices/vocesb3fd.html http://www.uthh.edu.mx/inicio.php?op=Tm90aWNpYXM9MTAz González Cruz, Genaro, Andrés B. González, Librado Silva Galeana y Delfino Hernández Hernández, In yancuic nahua zazanilli (Nueva narrativa náhuatl), México, UNAM, IIH, 1985, 40 p. (Totláhtol, Nuestra Palabra 1). http://www.cronicamilpaalta.org/index.php?id=13,14,0,0,1,0 http://www.conaculta.gob.mx/tierra/fondo_3.php?numPub=257 &numTotal=333 http://www.cdi.gob.mx/ini/legislacion/derechos/nahuatl.html http://www.ipfw.edu/anthropology/Documents/Nahua/Nahua40.pdf Tezozomoc _____ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Amapohuani at aol.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 8:14 PM To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] query on Nahua poet Listeros: Someone emailed me today with the following question: "Have you heard of the Nahua poet, Delfino Hernández Hernández?" I seem to vaguely remember the name. Anybody know something about this gentleman? Thanks. Barry D. Sell ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Amapohuani at aol.com Tue Oct 16 23:29:33 2007 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:29:33 EDT Subject: query on Nahua poet Message-ID: Tezozomoc: Your information on Delfino Hernández Hernández is much appreciated. Many thanks. Ye ixquich. Barry ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Oct 23 02:47:18 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 21:47:18 -0500 Subject: macochtli Message-ID: Does anyone know what "macochtli" is? I believe it appears in doublets and triplets as: "cuexaneh tepotzeh macocheh" and "cuexanco tepotzco macochco" John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx www.macehualli.org  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From brokaw at buffalo.edu Tue Oct 23 11:43:41 2007 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:43:41 -0400 Subject: macochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, Lopez Austin includes "macochtli" in his list of body parts in volume 2 of _The Human Body and Ideology_. He takes his definition from Dibble and Anderson: "The inner side or middle part of the arm" (vol. II, p. 159). This is also used to form "macochoa" meaning to hug, to embrace. Galen John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > Does anyone know what "macochtli" is? I believe it appears in doublets > and triplets as: > "cuexaneh tepotzeh macocheh" and > "cuexanco tepotzco macochco" > John > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > > Centro Histórico > > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > > México > > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > > Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 > > idiez at mac.com > > www.idiez.org.mx > > www.macehualli.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Oct 23 19:04:55 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:04:55 -0400 Subject: macochtli Message-ID: Galen and John and all, Whenever I see forms like "macochtli" and "temacochoa" (i.e., both nominal and verbal shapes), my knee-jerk reaction is to try to determine whether the noun comes from the verb or the egg from the chicken. In this case, I think the most straightforward analysis is to assume that the underlying morpheme is a noun stem, "macochtli". The noun "macochtli" occurs (FC, B.10), unembedded and without further derivation. It occurs with the -co suffix (imacochco, momacochco). It occurs embedded in the so-called "-eh suffix": macocheh, timacocheh. "macochtli" occurs in two different "verbalized" derivations: -oa (transitive verb through the intransitive -ihui or -ahui): temacochoa, momacochoa. -huia (apply to): temacochhuia. The examples below were culled from the three Molina dictionaries and the Florentine Codex. 'preterit forms from Molina. 'm1' and 'm2' refer to Molina, 1571, Spanish-Nahuatl and Nahuatl-Spanish, respectively. *macochtli *** macochoa del otro. 71m1-1 macochoa enel cuello del otro. 71m2-9 cuexane tepotze macoche. administrator. b.10 f.1 macochco , i-. in her arms; in her embrace. b.6 f.17 macochco , mo-. in your embrace. b.6 f.4 macoche. . b.10 f.1 macoche , ti-. you are one who has cradling arms. b.6 f.17 macochetica. . b.1 f.1 macochhuia , te-. it causes one to embrace; it brings about embracing one. b.10 f.7 macochoa sobre los cuellos. 71m2-10 mamacochoa del otro. 71m1-1 macochoa , te-. he carries someone in his arms; it embraces someone. b.10 f.1 macochoa , tla-. it embraces something. b.10 f.7 macochoani , te-. one who embraces others; one who embraces someone; one who carries someone in his arms. b.3 f.4 macochtli. curved inner part of arm. b.10 f.7 Iztayohmeh, Joe p.s. Of course, another candidate is "ma(itl)-cochtli" (patientive noun from "cochi") -- calling to mind the image of a sleeping baby carried in the crook of the arm. But I'm conservative about morphology. |8-) Quoting Galen Brokaw : > John, > Lopez Austin includes "macochtli" in his list of body parts in volume 2 > of _The Human Body and Ideology_. He takes his definition from Dibble > and Anderson: "The inner side or middle part of the arm" (vol. II, p. > 159). This is also used to form "macochoa" meaning to hug, to embrace. > Galen > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: >> Does anyone know what "macochtli" is? I believe it appears in doublets >> and triplets as: >> "cuexaneh tepotzeh macocheh" and >> "cuexanco tepotzco macochco" >> John >> >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> >> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >> >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >> >> Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. >> >> Tacuba 152, int. 47 >> >> Centro Histórico >> >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> >> México >> >> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> >> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 >> >> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> >> Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 >> >> idiez at mac.com >> >> www.idiez.org.mx >> >> www.macehualli.org >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Oct 23 21:44:54 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:44:54 -0500 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry for the late comment on this topic. In Northern Veracruz Nahuatl, we also have "tecohtli", "dueño", and "itecoh", "su dueño". But I can't see how this could be a spelling pronunciation. The Huasteca is peripheral to the Central Mexican writing tradition, and I just can't see literacy as having had any significant impact on speech in this area. Also, in this region a syllable final "w" sounds very much like an "h", perhaps a bit more prolonged. In Tamazunchale, only a few hours away, the sound is still pretty much like the "h", but the rounding is perceptible. John On Oct 9, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:29 PM, David Wright wrote: > >> Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, >> with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a >> spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the >> meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by José Concepción >> Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear >> [te:ku?tli]. > > In my experience with M.A. Nahuatl, the labialized [kw] has > simplified to [w], so te:uctli is pronounced [te:wtli] (the name of > the local sacred mountain). The 'boss, bureaucrat' word derived > from the spelling pronunciation is pronounced [te:kohtli] with the > [h] here representing the local pronunciation of the glottal stop. > But the o/u distinction being nonsignificant in most varieties of > spoken Nahuatl, including M.A. as I know it, it might be pronounced > more like [te:kuhtli]. > > >> In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find >> "tecu'tli, (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root >> with the kw > k shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, >> oficina." El Maestro Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern >> Mexico City). I assume that the unusual (for a native speaker) >> pronunciation [te:ku?tli] is the result of influence from Mexico >> City academics of the Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you >> have any information or comments on this? > > It might well be. I just think of it as spelling pronunciation. > The spelling "tecuhtli" managed to mislead Thelma Sullivan, who > used the word in her Compendio as an example of how the -tli form > of the absolutive suffix is used after saltillo (glottal stop). > Perhaps this was inherited from her teacher, who was none other > than Garibay. > > > Fran > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Oct 24 10:46:11 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:46:11 -0400 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Sorry for the late comment on this topic. In Northern Veracruz > Nahuatl, we also have "tecohtli", "dueño", and "itecoh", "su dueño". > But I can't see how this could be a spelling pronunciation. The > Huasteca is peripheral to the Central Mexican writing tradition, and > I just can't see literacy as having had any significant impact on > speech in this area. Also, in this region a syllable final "w" sounds > very much like an "h", perhaps a bit more prolonged. In > Tamazunchale, only a few hours away, the sound is still pretty much > like the "h", but the rounding is perceptible. > John It's hard to say, John, what is going on, but it could be in "tecohtli" a simple case of contraction, that is, a contraction of the original /-kw-/ of the stem /te:kw-/ 'lord' to [-ko(h-)] at the spoken level. We see such a thing, for example, in Miami-Illinois, an Algonquian language, where, say, phonemic /ceenkwihtanki/ 'it thunder-flows' (i.e., 'it is a waterfall') can go to phonetic [ceenkohtangi]. ( c "ch") Michael > > On Oct 9, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > >> >> On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:29 PM, David Wright wrote: >> >>> Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, >>> with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a >>> spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the >>> meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by José Concepción >>> Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear >>> [te:ku?tli]. >> >> In my experience with M.A. Nahuatl, the labialized [kw] has >> simplified to [w], so te:uctli is pronounced [te:wtli] (the name of >> the local sacred mountain). The 'boss, bureaucrat' word derived >> from the spelling pronunciation is pronounced [te:kohtli] with the >> [h] here representing the local pronunciation of the glottal stop. >> But the o/u distinction being nonsignificant in most varieties of >> spoken Nahuatl, including M.A. as I know it, it might be pronounced >> more like [te:kuhtli]. >> >> >>> In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find >>> "tecu'tli, (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root >>> with the kw > k shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, >>> oficina." El Maestro Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern >>> Mexico City). I assume that the unusual (for a native speaker) >>> pronunciation [te:ku?tli] is the result of influence from Mexico >>> City academics of the Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you >>> have any information or comments on this? >> >> It might well be. I just think of it as spelling pronunciation. >> The spelling "tecuhtli" managed to mislead Thelma Sullivan, who >> used the word in her Compendio as an example of how the -tli form >> of the absolutive suffix is used after saltillo (glottal stop). >> Perhaps this was inherited from her teacher, who was none other >> than Garibay. >> >> >> Fran >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Oct 24 10:47:46 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:47:46 -0400 Subject: Teuctli Message-ID: Should have added that while this contraction is rather sparse in Miami-Illinois, it's all over the place in related Fox (Meskwaki). Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Oct 24 13:50:49 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:50:49 -0400 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: <20071024064611.u3kprzb2oc4cckks@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, not a contraction in Nahuatl, a "rounding". Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > >> Sorry for the late comment on this topic. In Northern Veracruz >> Nahuatl, we also have "tecohtli", "dueño", and "itecoh", "su dueño". >> But I can't see how this could be a spelling pronunciation. The >> Huasteca is peripheral to the Central Mexican writing tradition, and >> I just can't see literacy as having had any significant impact on >> speech in this area. Also, in this region a syllable final "w" sounds >> very much like an "h", perhaps a bit more prolonged. In >> Tamazunchale, only a few hours away, the sound is still pretty much >> like the "h", but the rounding is perceptible. >> John > > > It's hard to say, John, what is going on, but it could be in "tecohtli" > a simple case of contraction, that is, a contraction of the original > /-kw-/ of the stem /te:kw-/ 'lord' to [-ko(h-)] at the spoken level. We > see such a thing, for example, in Miami-Illinois, an Algonquian > language, where, say, phonemic /ceenkwihtanki/ 'it thunder-flows' > (i.e., 'it is a waterfall') can go to phonetic [ceenkohtangi]. ( c "ch") > > Michael > > >> >> On Oct 9, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: >> >>> >>> On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:29 PM, David Wright wrote: >>> >>>> Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, >>>> with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a >>>> spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the >>>> meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by José Concepción >>>> Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear >>>> [te:ku?tli]. >>> >>> In my experience with M.A. Nahuatl, the labialized [kw] has >>> simplified to [w], so te:uctli is pronounced [te:wtli] (the name of >>> the local sacred mountain). The 'boss, bureaucrat' word derived >>> from the spelling pronunciation is pronounced [te:kohtli] with the >>> [h] here representing the local pronunciation of the glottal stop. >>> But the o/u distinction being nonsignificant in most varieties of >>> spoken Nahuatl, including M.A. as I know it, it might be pronounced >>> more like [te:kuhtli]. >>> >>> >>>> In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find >>>> "tecu'tli, (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root >>>> with the kw > k shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, >>>> oficina." El Maestro Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern >>>> Mexico City). I assume that the unusual (for a native speaker) >>>> pronunciation [te:ku?tli] is the result of influence from Mexico >>>> City academics of the Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you >>>> have any information or comments on this? >>> >>> It might well be. I just think of it as spelling pronunciation. >>> The spelling "tecuhtli" managed to mislead Thelma Sullivan, who >>> used the word in her Compendio as an example of how the -tli form >>> of the absolutive suffix is used after saltillo (glottal stop). >>> Perhaps this was inherited from her teacher, who was none other >>> than Garibay. >>> >>> >>> Fran >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Oct 24 13:55:50 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:55:50 -0400 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: <20071024095049.nv7qwhbcgo8s4s04@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: But I guess I don't know what's going on in John's forms! :) I'm sure Fran and Joe will help iron this out. There seems to be a phonetic change going on of some sort. I like /kwLi/ going to /koLi/, but I can't say if that happens elsewhere. Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Sorry, not a contraction in Nahuatl, a "rounding". > > Michael > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : >> >>> Sorry for the late comment on this topic. In Northern Veracruz >>> Nahuatl, we also have "tecohtli", "dueño", and "itecoh", "su dueño". >>> But I can't see how this could be a spelling pronunciation. The >>> Huasteca is peripheral to the Central Mexican writing tradition, and >>> I just can't see literacy as having had any significant impact on >>> speech in this area. Also, in this region a syllable final "w" sounds >>> very much like an "h", perhaps a bit more prolonged. In >>> Tamazunchale, only a few hours away, the sound is still pretty much >>> like the "h", but the rounding is perceptible. >>> John >> >> >> It's hard to say, John, what is going on, but it could be in "tecohtli" >> a simple case of contraction, that is, a contraction of the original >> /-kw-/ of the stem /te:kw-/ 'lord' to [-ko(h-)] at the spoken level. We >> see such a thing, for example, in Miami-Illinois, an Algonquian >> language, where, say, phonemic /ceenkwihtanki/ 'it thunder-flows' >> (i.e., 'it is a waterfall') can go to phonetic [ceenkohtangi]. ( c "ch") >> >> Michael >> >> >>> >>> On Oct 9, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:29 PM, David Wright wrote: >>>> >>>>> Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, >>>>> with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a >>>>> spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the >>>>> meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by José Concepción >>>>> Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear >>>>> [te:ku?tli]. >>>> >>>> In my experience with M.A. Nahuatl, the labialized [kw] has >>>> simplified to [w], so te:uctli is pronounced [te:wtli] (the name of >>>> the local sacred mountain). The 'boss, bureaucrat' word derived >>>> from the spelling pronunciation is pronounced [te:kohtli] with the >>>> [h] here representing the local pronunciation of the glottal stop. >>>> But the o/u distinction being nonsignificant in most varieties of >>>> spoken Nahuatl, including M.A. as I know it, it might be pronounced >>>> more like [te:kuhtli]. >>>> >>>> >>>>> In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find >>>>> "tecu'tli, (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root >>>>> with the kw > k shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, >>>>> oficina." El Maestro Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern >>>>> Mexico City). I assume that the unusual (for a native speaker) >>>>> pronunciation [te:ku?tli] is the result of influence from Mexico >>>>> City academics of the Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you >>>>> have any information or comments on this? >>>> >>>> It might well be. I just think of it as spelling pronunciation. >>>> The spelling "tecuhtli" managed to mislead Thelma Sullivan, who >>>> used the word in her Compendio as an example of how the -tli form >>>> of the absolutive suffix is used after saltillo (glottal stop). >>>> Perhaps this was inherited from her teacher, who was none other >>>> than Garibay. >>>> >>>> >>>> Fran >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Thu Oct 25 01:24:20 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:24:20 -0500 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fran, I don`t see very much influence of the Catholic Church in the communities I visit in northern Veracruz. None have a church. Parallel ceremonies are conducted for weddings (church and traditional indigenous), but the Church has absolutely nothing to do with ceremonies of death. Family alters have pictures of saints, but even in this case, the concept of "saint" is indistiguishable from that of the natural spirits which inhabit mountains. If there was an initial round of baptisms during the colonial period, it looks to me like the priest then packed up and moved back into the municipal centers where they remain to this day. The word final position of the original "-uc" in "itecoh" may have something to do with its changing into "coh". I've been trying to think of other words that end like this, but I can't come up with any. "neuctli", for example goes to "ineuchui" (i-neuc-hui) or "inechui" (i-nec-hui) depending on how you want to spell it. John On Oct 23, 2007, at 7:08 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > On Oct 23, 2007, at 5:44 PM, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > >> Sorry for the late comment on this topic. In Northern Veracruz >> Nahuatl, we also have "tecohtli", "dueño", and "itecoh", "su >> dueño". But I can't see how this could be a spelling >> pronunciation. The Huasteca is peripheral to the Central Mexican >> writing tradition, and I just can't see literacy as having had any >> significant impact on speech in this area. Also, in this region a >> syllable final "w" sounds very much like an "h", perhaps a bit >> more prolonged. In Tamazunchale, only a few hours away, the sound >> is still pretty much like the "h", but the rounding is perceptible. >> John >> > > > I don't know the answer for sure. The difference in Milpa Alta is > that there is regular monosyllabic reflex of teuc- with the core > meaning of 'lord' that contrasts with a bisyllabic stem te.coh- > that has a more contemporary meaning. Plus, M.A. has a long > literary tradition. > > Only thing to consider is the argument I have heard that Central > Mexican honorific morphology is to be found in Huastecan Nahuatl > but only attached to lexical items having to do with Christian > observance and particularly with loanwords from Spanish having to > do with the Church. Is this accurate? I would have to hunt around > for the source of this argument. > > If it's so, it's not hard to imagine that Catholic clergy, even a > long time ago, might have orally transmitted spelling pronunciation > of the stem for 'lord' to Nahuatl speakers with negligible history > of writing. > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tecvm at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 15:50:33 2007 From: tecvm at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Diego_V=E1squez_Monterroso?=) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:50:33 -0700 Subject: Relacin entre nahuatl y chontal de Tabasco Message-ID: Hola a todos: He estado investigando sobre los "chontales" de Tabasco (región de Acalán) y no sé si me podrían ayudar a encontrar información acerca de la relación entre el centro de México y esa región. Ya revisé el libro de Roys de Acalan-Tixchel, pero quisiera saber si hay información más actual. De antemano muchas gracias. Saludos, Diego Vásquez Monterroso ____________________________________________________________________________________ ¡Sé un mejor besador! Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos. http://telemundo.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Mon Oct 8 22:45:30 2007 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:45:30 -0700 Subject: Skulls and Colorines Message-ID: I was asked about 'Tzompanteuctli.' It was found in Bierhorst's translation of the Codex Chimalpopoca as rulers of Cuitlahuac and/or some form of sorcerer. I looked up in my several dictionaries and found that according to Francis Karttunen the pronunciation of the second vowel is what distinguishes the tree "colorin" from the "skull rack" of the pyramids. I also found references to a village in "Valle de Toluca" called this way whose inhabitants might have been called Tzompanteuctli. Does anybody know more the possible use of this word as applied to a people or profession? Kier _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From webmaster at chicanoforums.com Mon Oct 8 23:54:06 2007 From: webmaster at chicanoforums.com (Webmaster) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:54:06 -0700 Subject: Taking a Nahua name Message-ID: Hello, Can anyone offer any advice on how to select an Nahua - Mexica first and last name? Sincerely, Daniel Maldonado -- Webmaster http://chicanoforums.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Tue Oct 9 02:36:18 2007 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2 at cox.net) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:36:18 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl in Oaxaca..... being killed off? Message-ID: I just returned from a very interesting week end in New Jersey. I went to give some Danza Azteca presentations at some schools and to help start a community dance group. I met a family that is from Oaxaca, and everyone assumed that they were Mixteco, including themselves. But one of the sons (age about 20) told me that his grand-uncles spoke "mexicano". I assumed they meant Mixteco, but then he said: "I only remember some words. he taught me to count to five, 'ce, ome, yei, nahui.' He also said something like 'Axcan melahuac'......" Needless to say I was surprised and excited to hear Nahuatl from an area in Oaxaca. Their home village in in the Mixteca Alta, but nobody could tell me the name of the place. They had grown up in New Brunswick, New Jersey since they were small. The only thing they could say was that it was a town near "Pulta" Oaxaca. The web gives us this: /http://putla.com/historia_de_putla.php / and: Putla de Guerrero is located 130 km north of Pinotepa Nacional on hwy 125 (only 5 km off of the edge of my regional map ). The town sits at an altitude of 750 meters. *Local indigenous cultures are primarily Mixtec and Cuicatec. * (from: /http://www.tomzap.com/putla.html/) This site tells of a tragic attack by paramilitary soldiers from a larger Oaxacan town that wants to force the smaller town to cut down its old growth tress. The villagers want to protect the trees and create a sustainable ecoturism industry: *Al pueblo de Mexico:* *Se le informa, que el d?a *15 de noviembre del 2006* un grupo de Paramilitar de Santa Catarina Yosonotu, San Pedro Yosotatu, pistoleros pertenecientes ala organizaci?n MULT y agentes de la Polic?a Ministerial de Tlaxiaco ubicados en La Comunidad de Lagunilla, encabezados por los profesores Gregorio Morales y Lu?s Morales Cruz, entre otros, produjeron varios hechos il?citos en contra de los campesinos del municipio de Santa Lucia Monteverde Putla Oaxaca, los cuales resultaron en tragedia. * *A las 8:20 am aproximadamente, asesinaron con armas de alto poder exclusivo del ej?rcito, al ciudadano Armando Marcelino Hern?ndez Aparicio de la comunidad de Agua del Toro, perteneciente a Santa Lucia Monteverde, lo emboscaron en el paraje Llano Ondo, de la jurisdicci?n de Monteverde y asesinaron a sangre fr?a. El occiso se dirig?a hacia sus parcelas y cuando fue emboscado.* *En la misma fecha este grupo paramilitar ingresaron a los terrenos de Altamira, para tender una emboscada y asesinar a campesinos de Santa Lucia Monteverde. Durante la emboscada balacearon al agente y auxiliar de la Agencia Municipal Uni?n Altamira, quienes caminaban hacia sus parcelas. Recibieron m?ltiples impactos de cuernos de chivo. Lograron ser rescatados por otros vecinos para ser trasladados al hospital general de la ciudad de Tlaxiaco, para despu?s ser trasladados de emergencia ala ciudad de Oaxaca, en estado critico. * *De este caso se entero el* ej?rcito mexicano* quienes visitaron el municipio el siguiente d?a. Por parte del municipio se les solicito apoyo para rescatar el cuerpo sin vida del occiso. Se movilizaron hacia el paraje a rescatar el cuerpo, pero fueron atacados por el grupo paramilitar. Los soldados no respondieron la agresi?n y lograron llevar el cuerpo al municipio de Monteverde. * *Se presento el medico forense de la H. Ciudad de Tlaxiaco, quien se presento para practicar la autopsia de rigor. El perito en su informe forense, determino que la causa de muerto fueron m?ltiples impactos de arma de fuego de alto calibre, en el vientre, hombros y piernas. * *El d?a 16 de noviembre alas 9:00 pm trataron de invadir la agencia de la Uni?n Altamira perteneciente al municipio de Santa Lucia Monteverde, usando armas de alto poder e incendiando casas de madera. Causando terror entre la poblaci?n de Santa Lucia Monteverde. Los campesinos que habitan Altamira huyeron hacia el cerro llevando sus pocas pertenencias. En esos momentos se encontraba un grupo de estudiantes de la UAM-Xochimilco y Universidad Autonoma Chapingo, quienes se encontraban haciendo labores de investigaci?n en la zona, estos estudiantes salieron horrorizados del Municipio y del estado de Oaxaca. * *Fue hasta la entrada del ej?rcito mexicano que este grupo paramilitar de retiro de la zona, no sin antes incendiar 7 casas y robarse ganado. * *Las autoridades municipales de Monteverde, se presentaron ante el gobernador del estado y agente del ministerio publico del distrito de Putla, para levantar la diligencia del estos hechos. * **Debido a estos hechos tan violentos solicitamos la intervenci?n del ej?rcito Mexicano para el desarme de este grupo paramilitar y el esclarecimiento de este brutal asesinato que vuelve a perturbar la tranquilidad que se viv?a en la sierra sur de la mixteca oaxaque?a. Sin olvidar el pago de los da?os y la detenci?n de todos los involucrados*. * *H. Ayuntamiento de Santa Lucia Monteverde. * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From pcrossley at western.edu Tue Oct 9 04:45:22 2007 From: pcrossley at western.edu (Phil Crossley) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 22:45:22 -0600 Subject: skulls and colorines Message-ID: I can't contribute to answering Kier's question (but I always enjoy the learned responses to such questions). However, I want to note that the mountain just south of San Luis Tlaxialtemalco, or between Milpa Alta and San Luis/San Gregorio, is named Teuctli, and I'd love to hear the translation of that name in people's responses to Kier. Thanks, Phil Crossley _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Oct 9 10:39:13 2007 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 06:39:13 -0400 Subject: Teuctli Message-ID: The Nahuatl word teuctli--phonetically bisyllabic [te:kw.tli] and more often than not in older Nahuatl texts misleadingly written "tecuhtli"--means 'lord, ruler' and is found in many compounds such as yohualteuctli, mictlanteuctli, etc. (Joe can provide a list if there is interest.) In some compounds the stem loses the rounding of the final consonant, and it's just tec-, as in tecpan [te:kpan] 'palace; 'where the ruler is located' and tecpillotl [te:kpillo:tl] 'nobility, good breeding.' There is a pervasive pan-Mesoamerican myth of local heros withdrawing into hills/mountains to sleep until such time as they sally forth to aid their people. This is true of the volcanic cone near Milpa Alta known as Teuctli. In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the meaning of 'boss.' Fran _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tecvm at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 15:55:37 2007 From: tecvm at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Diego_V=E1squez_Monterroso?=) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 08:55:37 -0700 Subject: Filosofa nhuatl Message-ID: Hola a todos: Quisiera preguntarles si alguno de ustedes podr?a facilitarme alguna informaci?n con respecto a la filosof?a n?huatl. Encontr? el libro de Le?n-Portilla, sin embargo est? en una biblioteca donde no lo puedo sacar entonces me da mucho problema consultarlo. Si alguien pudiera ayudarme muchas gracias por adelantado. Saludos, Diego. ____________________________________________________________________________________ ?S? un mejor besador! Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos. http://telemundo.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Oct 9 16:29:21 2007 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:29:21 -0500 Subject: Teuctli Message-ID: Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by Jos? Concepci?n Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear [te:ku?tli]. In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find "tecu'tli, (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root with the kw > k shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, oficina." El Maestro Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern Mexico City). I assume that the unusual (for a native speaker) pronunciation [te:ku?tli] is the result of influence from Mexico City academics of the Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you have any information or comments on this? See: Flores Arce, Jos? Concepci?n (Xochime?), Nitlahtoa, titlahtoa ?Ma?titla?tocan nahualla?tolli! ?Hablemos n?huatl!, Di?logos de apoyo para practicar la lengua n?huatl del maestro Xochime, 2a. ed., Esperanza Meneses Minor, asesora, M?xico, Ce-Acatl, 2000. If anyone is interested in the recordings (the third edition is on CD) and book, they are available from the folks at Ce Acatl: http://www.laneta.apc.org/ceacatl/. Saludos, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Oct 9 18:19:49 2007 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:19:49 -0400 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:29 PM, David Wright wrote: > Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, > with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a > spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the > meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by Jos? Concepci?n > Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear > [te:ku?tli]. In my experience with M.A. Nahuatl, the labialized [kw] has simplified to [w], so te:uctli is pronounced [te:wtli] (the name of the local sacred mountain). The 'boss, bureaucrat' word derived from the spelling pronunciation is pronounced [te:kohtli] with the [h] here representing the local pronunciation of the glottal stop. But the o/u distinction being nonsignificant in most varieties of spoken Nahuatl, including M.A. as I know it, it might be pronounced more like [te:kuhtli]. > In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find "tecu'tli, > (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root with the kw > k > shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, oficina." El Maestro > Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern Mexico City). I assume > that the unusual (for a native speaker) pronunciation [te:ku?tli] > is the result of influence from Mexico City academics of the > Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you have any information or > comments on this? It might well be. I just think of it as spelling pronunciation. The spelling "tecuhtli" managed to mislead Thelma Sullivan, who used the word in her Compendio as an example of how the -tli form of the absolutive suffix is used after saltillo (glottal stop). Perhaps this was inherited from her teacher, who was none other than Garibay. Fran -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Oct 9 21:33:13 2007 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 16:33:13 -0500 Subject: Teuctli Message-ID: Yup, Sullivan's (Compendio de la gram?tica n?huatl, 1976) orthography and misconceptions about phonology, when plotted out in a table, correspond exactly to those of Garibay (Llave del n?huatl, 1940). Both texts, which have been reprinted several times since their initial appearance, continue to influence people's view of colonial central Mexican Nahuatl. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tecvm at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 17:10:03 2007 From: tecvm at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Diego_V=E1squez_Monterroso?=) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:10:03 -0700 Subject: Nhuatl Message-ID: Hola a todos: Respondiendo a la pregunta de Juanita, sobre d?nde me encuentro, pues vivo en Guatemala, as? que aqu? es un poco dif?cil encontrar materiales sobre cualquier cosa relacionada con lo n?huatl. Agradecer?a si conocen tambi?n informaci?n disponible en internet; tambi?n me interesa aprender n?huatl, as? que tambi?n quisiera saber si conocen direcciones en internet o cursos, gram?ticas y diccionarios en l?nea. De antemano muchas gracias. Un saludo desde Guatemala, Diego. ____________________________________________________________________________________ ?S? un mejor besador! Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos. http://telemundo.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Oct 10 12:23:40 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:23:40 -0400 Subject: THE AZTEC EMPIRE: ICONOGRAPHIES AND IDEOLOGIES OF POWER Message-ID: Friday, November 2 University of Connecticut School of Fine Arts Sackler Art and Archaeology Symposium THE AZTEC EMPIRE: ICONOGRAPHIES AND IDEOLOGIES OF POWER Beverly and Raymond Sackler Art and Archaeology Lectures Symposium, 2007 Friday, November 2nd, 2007 University of Connecticut To examine empire in the context of Aztec Mesoamerica is to think critically about the dynamics of power. Comparative study of the Aztec empire ? especially of the cultural, political and economic structures it used to assert control ?furthers our understanding of diverse imperial polities, and provides crucial insight into the phenomenon of imperialism itself. From the religious and political significance of Templo Mayor sculptures, to commoner arts and their influence on monumental stone sculpture of the Aztec state; from the material evidence of temple architecture to pottery, the mechanisms of Aztec imperial rule have much to teach us today. The 6th annual Beverly and Raymond Sackler Art and Archaeology Symposium investigates the nature of Aztec imperial organization. The symposium addresses issues such as the Aztec promotion of hegemonic (vs. strictly military) control over a diverse group of quasi-independent city-states, and imperial integration of economics, religion and politics in state rituals. Speakers will also examine the complex interactions between ruling metropole and subject peoples. Through these interactions, the central Aztec state negotiated economic and social stability with its peripheral neighbors so as to counteract political instability. Schedule for Friday November 2nd, 2007 Dr. David G. Woods, Dean of the School of Fine Arts, University of Connecticut 2 p.m.: Introduction Dr. Michael E. Smith, Arizona State University 2:15 p.m. ?Material culture of the Aztec Empire in central Mexico: local, regional, and global patterns.? Dr. Cecelia Klein, University of California, Los Angeles 3:00 p.m. ?From Clay to Stone: The Role of Ceramic Figurines in the Formation of the Official Aztec Pantheon.? Tea Break Dr. Elizabeth Brumfiel, Northwestern University 4:00 p.m. "Cosmology at home" Dr. Eulogio Guzm?n, Boston Museum of Fine Arts School/Tufts University 4:45p.m. ?Iconographic Variability: Shifting Meanings in Aztec Sculpture and the Political Expansion of the Mexica State? Location The Beverly and Raymond Sackler Art and Archaeology Lectures Symposium is open to the University community and the greater public. Admission is free and a reception follows. The symposium will be held at the Thomas. J. Dodd Research Center, 405 Babbidge Road, on the Storrs campus of the University of Connecticut. The Beverly and Raymond Sackler Art and Archaeology Lectures The Beverly and Raymond Sackler Art and Archaeology Lectures, now in their sixth year, provide a unique opportunity to explore critical issues in the fields of Archaeology and Art History on the University of Connecticut campus at Storrs. This annual symposium fosters an exchange of ideas between scholars, faculty, and students across the University of Connecticut campus, and throughout the New England area. Dr. Raymond Sackler and his wife Beverly have generously provided funding to make this event possible. For more information and directions, please explore this website, or contact Professor Robin Greeley at robin.greeley at uconn.edu. http://www.art.uconn.edu/events/sackler/sackler_2007.htm -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From webmaster at chicanoforums.com Mon Oct 15 02:27:49 2007 From: webmaster at chicanoforums.com (Webmaster) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:27:49 -0700 Subject: Nahuas de Morelos Message-ID: Ventana a mi Comunidad - Nahuas de Morelos / Nahuatl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v Serie de videos Ventana a mi Comunidad. Una producci?n de Videoservicios Profesionales SA de CV para la Coordinaci?n General de Educaci?n Intercultural y Biling?e de la SEP, M?xico. http://ventana.ilce.edu.mx -Daniel -- Webmaster http://chicanoforums.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From webmaster at chicanoforums.com Mon Oct 15 18:13:45 2007 From: webmaster at chicanoforums.com (Webmaster) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:13:45 -0700 Subject: Ventana a mi Comunidad - Nahuas de Morelos / Nahuatl Message-ID: Correct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9PT96N9Zu4 Sorry for the inconvenience. Daniel -- Webmaster http://chicanoforums.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Amapohuani at aol.com Tue Oct 16 03:13:30 2007 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:13:30 EDT Subject: query on Nahua poet Message-ID: Listeros: Someone emailed me today with the following question: "Have you heard of the Nahua poet, Delfino Hern?ndez Hern?ndez?" I seem to vaguely remember the name. Anybody know something about this gentleman? Thanks. Barry D. Sell ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 16:32:02 2007 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:32:02 -0700 Subject: query on Nahua poet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This page has some of his poetry http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2004/09/20/oja89-poetas.html Referenced in this book http://books.google.com/books?id=fKWaEv47kPoC &pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=%22delfino+hern%C3%A1ndez+hern%C3%A1ndez%22&source=we b&ots=ceCnGWR-ty&sig=MibQBghRQTIqpbuGwQ7yN8aC2E0#PPA108,M1 Delfino Hern?ndez Hern?ndez. ?Xochitlajtouani: El Poeta? in Yancuic Nahua Zazanilli: Nueva Narrativa Mexico City: Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, Instituto de Investigaciones Hist?ricas, 1985 Newberry Library: PM4068.H47 Translator of Video to Nahuatl http://www.huicholesyplaguicidas.org/huichol_cas/cont/docs/gvid_05.pdf http://redescolar.ilce.edu.mx/redescolar/biblioteca/literatura/voces_antigua s_raices/vocesb3fd.html http://www.uthh.edu.mx/inicio.php?op=Tm90aWNpYXM9MTAz Gonz?lez Cruz, Genaro, Andr?s B. Gonz?lez, Librado Silva Galeana y Delfino Hern?ndez Hern?ndez, In yancuic nahua zazanilli (Nueva narrativa n?huatl), M?xico, UNAM, IIH, 1985, 40 p. (Totl?htol, Nuestra Palabra 1). http://www.cronicamilpaalta.org/index.php?id=13,14,0,0,1,0 http://www.conaculta.gob.mx/tierra/fondo_3.php?numPub=257 &numTotal=333 http://www.cdi.gob.mx/ini/legislacion/derechos/nahuatl.html http://www.ipfw.edu/anthropology/Documents/Nahua/Nahua40.pdf Tezozomoc _____ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Amapohuani at aol.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 8:14 PM To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] query on Nahua poet Listeros: Someone emailed me today with the following question: "Have you heard of the Nahua poet, Delfino Hern?ndez Hern?ndez?" I seem to vaguely remember the name. Anybody know something about this gentleman? Thanks. Barry D. Sell ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Amapohuani at aol.com Tue Oct 16 23:29:33 2007 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:29:33 EDT Subject: query on Nahua poet Message-ID: Tezozomoc: Your information on Delfino Hern?ndez Hern?ndez is much appreciated. Many thanks. Ye ixquich. Barry ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Oct 23 02:47:18 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 21:47:18 -0500 Subject: macochtli Message-ID: Does anyone know what "macochtli" is? I believe it appears in doublets and triplets as: "cuexaneh tepotzeh macocheh" and "cuexanco tepotzco macochco" John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx www.macehualli.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From brokaw at buffalo.edu Tue Oct 23 11:43:41 2007 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:43:41 -0400 Subject: macochtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, Lopez Austin includes "macochtli" in his list of body parts in volume 2 of _The Human Body and Ideology_. He takes his definition from Dibble and Anderson: "The inner side or middle part of the arm" (vol. II, p. 159). This is also used to form "macochoa" meaning to hug, to embrace. Galen John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > Does anyone know what "macochtli" is? I believe it appears in doublets > and triplets as: > "cuexaneh tepotzeh macocheh" and > "cuexanco tepotzco macochco" > John > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > > Centro Hist?rico > > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > > M?xico > > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > > Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 > > idiez at mac.com > > www.idiez.org.mx > > www.macehualli.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Oct 23 19:04:55 2007 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:04:55 -0400 Subject: macochtli Message-ID: Galen and John and all, Whenever I see forms like "macochtli" and "temacochoa" (i.e., both nominal and verbal shapes), my knee-jerk reaction is to try to determine whether the noun comes from the verb or the egg from the chicken. In this case, I think the most straightforward analysis is to assume that the underlying morpheme is a noun stem, "macochtli". The noun "macochtli" occurs (FC, B.10), unembedded and without further derivation. It occurs with the -co suffix (imacochco, momacochco). It occurs embedded in the so-called "-eh suffix": macocheh, timacocheh. "macochtli" occurs in two different "verbalized" derivations: -oa (transitive verb through the intransitive -ihui or -ahui): temacochoa, momacochoa. -huia (apply to): temacochhuia. The examples below were culled from the three Molina dictionaries and the Florentine Codex. 'preterit forms from Molina. 'm1' and 'm2' refer to Molina, 1571, Spanish-Nahuatl and Nahuatl-Spanish, respectively. *macochtli *** macochoa del otro. 71m1-1 macochoa enel cuello del otro. 71m2-9 cuexane tepotze macoche. administrator. b.10 f.1 macochco , i-. in her arms; in her embrace. b.6 f.17 macochco , mo-. in your embrace. b.6 f.4 macoche. . b.10 f.1 macoche , ti-. you are one who has cradling arms. b.6 f.17 macochetica. . b.1 f.1 macochhuia , te-. it causes one to embrace; it brings about embracing one. b.10 f.7 macochoa sobre los cuellos. 71m2-10 mamacochoa del otro. 71m1-1 macochoa , te-. he carries someone in his arms; it embraces someone. b.10 f.1 macochoa , tla-. it embraces something. b.10 f.7 macochoani , te-. one who embraces others; one who embraces someone; one who carries someone in his arms. b.3 f.4 macochtli. curved inner part of arm. b.10 f.7 Iztayohmeh, Joe p.s. Of course, another candidate is "ma(itl)-cochtli" (patientive noun from "cochi") -- calling to mind the image of a sleeping baby carried in the crook of the arm. But I'm conservative about morphology. |8-) Quoting Galen Brokaw : > John, > Lopez Austin includes "macochtli" in his list of body parts in volume 2 > of _The Human Body and Ideology_. He takes his definition from Dibble > and Anderson: "The inner side or middle part of the arm" (vol. II, p. > 159). This is also used to form "macochoa" meaning to hug, to embrace. > Galen > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: >> Does anyone know what "macochtli" is? I believe it appears in doublets >> and triplets as: >> "cuexaneh tepotzeh macocheh" and >> "cuexanco tepotzco macochco" >> John >> >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> >> Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >> >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >> >> Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. >> >> Tacuba 152, int. 47 >> >> Centro Hist?rico >> >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> >> M?xico >> >> Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> >> Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 >> >> Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> >> Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 >> >> idiez at mac.com >> >> www.idiez.org.mx >> >> www.macehualli.org >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Oct 23 21:44:54 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:44:54 -0500 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry for the late comment on this topic. In Northern Veracruz Nahuatl, we also have "tecohtli", "due?o", and "itecoh", "su due?o". But I can't see how this could be a spelling pronunciation. The Huasteca is peripheral to the Central Mexican writing tradition, and I just can't see literacy as having had any significant impact on speech in this area. Also, in this region a syllable final "w" sounds very much like an "h", perhaps a bit more prolonged. In Tamazunchale, only a few hours away, the sound is still pretty much like the "h", but the rounding is perceptible. John On Oct 9, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:29 PM, David Wright wrote: > >> Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, >> with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a >> spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the >> meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by Jos? Concepci?n >> Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear >> [te:ku?tli]. > > In my experience with M.A. Nahuatl, the labialized [kw] has > simplified to [w], so te:uctli is pronounced [te:wtli] (the name of > the local sacred mountain). The 'boss, bureaucrat' word derived > from the spelling pronunciation is pronounced [te:kohtli] with the > [h] here representing the local pronunciation of the glottal stop. > But the o/u distinction being nonsignificant in most varieties of > spoken Nahuatl, including M.A. as I know it, it might be pronounced > more like [te:kuhtli]. > > >> In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find >> "tecu'tli, (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root >> with the kw > k shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, >> oficina." El Maestro Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern >> Mexico City). I assume that the unusual (for a native speaker) >> pronunciation [te:ku?tli] is the result of influence from Mexico >> City academics of the Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you >> have any information or comments on this? > > It might well be. I just think of it as spelling pronunciation. > The spelling "tecuhtli" managed to mislead Thelma Sullivan, who > used the word in her Compendio as an example of how the -tli form > of the absolutive suffix is used after saltillo (glottal stop). > Perhaps this was inherited from her teacher, who was none other > than Garibay. > > > Fran > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Oct 24 10:46:11 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:46:11 -0400 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Sorry for the late comment on this topic. In Northern Veracruz > Nahuatl, we also have "tecohtli", "due?o", and "itecoh", "su due?o". > But I can't see how this could be a spelling pronunciation. The > Huasteca is peripheral to the Central Mexican writing tradition, and > I just can't see literacy as having had any significant impact on > speech in this area. Also, in this region a syllable final "w" sounds > very much like an "h", perhaps a bit more prolonged. In > Tamazunchale, only a few hours away, the sound is still pretty much > like the "h", but the rounding is perceptible. > John It's hard to say, John, what is going on, but it could be in "tecohtli" a simple case of contraction, that is, a contraction of the original /-kw-/ of the stem /te:kw-/ 'lord' to [-ko(h-)] at the spoken level. We see such a thing, for example, in Miami-Illinois, an Algonquian language, where, say, phonemic /ceenkwihtanki/ 'it thunder-flows' (i.e., 'it is a waterfall') can go to phonetic [ceenkohtangi]. ( c "ch") Michael > > On Oct 9, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > >> >> On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:29 PM, David Wright wrote: >> >>> Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, >>> with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a >>> spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the >>> meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by Jos? Concepci?n >>> Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear >>> [te:ku?tli]. >> >> In my experience with M.A. Nahuatl, the labialized [kw] has >> simplified to [w], so te:uctli is pronounced [te:wtli] (the name of >> the local sacred mountain). The 'boss, bureaucrat' word derived >> from the spelling pronunciation is pronounced [te:kohtli] with the >> [h] here representing the local pronunciation of the glottal stop. >> But the o/u distinction being nonsignificant in most varieties of >> spoken Nahuatl, including M.A. as I know it, it might be pronounced >> more like [te:kuhtli]. >> >> >>> In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find >>> "tecu'tli, (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root >>> with the kw > k shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, >>> oficina." El Maestro Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern >>> Mexico City). I assume that the unusual (for a native speaker) >>> pronunciation [te:ku?tli] is the result of influence from Mexico >>> City academics of the Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you >>> have any information or comments on this? >> >> It might well be. I just think of it as spelling pronunciation. >> The spelling "tecuhtli" managed to mislead Thelma Sullivan, who >> used the word in her Compendio as an example of how the -tli form >> of the absolutive suffix is used after saltillo (glottal stop). >> Perhaps this was inherited from her teacher, who was none other >> than Garibay. >> >> >> Fran >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Oct 24 10:47:46 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:47:46 -0400 Subject: Teuctli Message-ID: Should have added that while this contraction is rather sparse in Miami-Illinois, it's all over the place in related Fox (Meskwaki). Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Oct 24 13:50:49 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:50:49 -0400 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: <20071024064611.u3kprzb2oc4cckks@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, not a contraction in Nahuatl, a "rounding". Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > >> Sorry for the late comment on this topic. In Northern Veracruz >> Nahuatl, we also have "tecohtli", "due?o", and "itecoh", "su due?o". >> But I can't see how this could be a spelling pronunciation. The >> Huasteca is peripheral to the Central Mexican writing tradition, and >> I just can't see literacy as having had any significant impact on >> speech in this area. Also, in this region a syllable final "w" sounds >> very much like an "h", perhaps a bit more prolonged. In >> Tamazunchale, only a few hours away, the sound is still pretty much >> like the "h", but the rounding is perceptible. >> John > > > It's hard to say, John, what is going on, but it could be in "tecohtli" > a simple case of contraction, that is, a contraction of the original > /-kw-/ of the stem /te:kw-/ 'lord' to [-ko(h-)] at the spoken level. We > see such a thing, for example, in Miami-Illinois, an Algonquian > language, where, say, phonemic /ceenkwihtanki/ 'it thunder-flows' > (i.e., 'it is a waterfall') can go to phonetic [ceenkohtangi]. ( c "ch") > > Michael > > >> >> On Oct 9, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: >> >>> >>> On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:29 PM, David Wright wrote: >>> >>>> Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, >>>> with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a >>>> spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the >>>> meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by Jos? Concepci?n >>>> Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear >>>> [te:ku?tli]. >>> >>> In my experience with M.A. Nahuatl, the labialized [kw] has >>> simplified to [w], so te:uctli is pronounced [te:wtli] (the name of >>> the local sacred mountain). The 'boss, bureaucrat' word derived >>> from the spelling pronunciation is pronounced [te:kohtli] with the >>> [h] here representing the local pronunciation of the glottal stop. >>> But the o/u distinction being nonsignificant in most varieties of >>> spoken Nahuatl, including M.A. as I know it, it might be pronounced >>> more like [te:kuhtli]. >>> >>> >>>> In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find >>>> "tecu'tli, (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root >>>> with the kw > k shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, >>>> oficina." El Maestro Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern >>>> Mexico City). I assume that the unusual (for a native speaker) >>>> pronunciation [te:ku?tli] is the result of influence from Mexico >>>> City academics of the Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you >>>> have any information or comments on this? >>> >>> It might well be. I just think of it as spelling pronunciation. >>> The spelling "tecuhtli" managed to mislead Thelma Sullivan, who >>> used the word in her Compendio as an example of how the -tli form >>> of the absolutive suffix is used after saltillo (glottal stop). >>> Perhaps this was inherited from her teacher, who was none other >>> than Garibay. >>> >>> >>> Fran >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Oct 24 13:55:50 2007 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:55:50 -0400 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: <20071024095049.nv7qwhbcgo8s4s04@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: But I guess I don't know what's going on in John's forms! :) I'm sure Fran and Joe will help iron this out. There seems to be a phonetic change going on of some sort. I like /kwLi/ going to /koLi/, but I can't say if that happens elsewhere. Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Sorry, not a contraction in Nahuatl, a "rounding". > > Michael > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : >> >>> Sorry for the late comment on this topic. In Northern Veracruz >>> Nahuatl, we also have "tecohtli", "due?o", and "itecoh", "su due?o". >>> But I can't see how this could be a spelling pronunciation. The >>> Huasteca is peripheral to the Central Mexican writing tradition, and >>> I just can't see literacy as having had any significant impact on >>> speech in this area. Also, in this region a syllable final "w" sounds >>> very much like an "h", perhaps a bit more prolonged. In >>> Tamazunchale, only a few hours away, the sound is still pretty much >>> like the "h", but the rounding is perceptible. >>> John >> >> >> It's hard to say, John, what is going on, but it could be in "tecohtli" >> a simple case of contraction, that is, a contraction of the original >> /-kw-/ of the stem /te:kw-/ 'lord' to [-ko(h-)] at the spoken level. We >> see such a thing, for example, in Miami-Illinois, an Algonquian >> language, where, say, phonemic /ceenkwihtanki/ 'it thunder-flows' >> (i.e., 'it is a waterfall') can go to phonetic [ceenkohtangi]. ( c "ch") >> >> Michael >> >> >>> >>> On Oct 9, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:29 PM, David Wright wrote: >>>> >>>>> Regarding Fran's statement "In Milpa Alta the word has bifurcated, >>>>> with the original form retaining its meaning of 'lord' and a >>>>> spelling pronunciation based on tecuhtli having taken on the >>>>> meaning of 'boss'": In the cassettes prepared by Jos? Concepci?n >>>>> Flores Arce ("El Maestro Xochime") for teaching Nahuatl, I hear >>>>> [te:ku?tli]. >>>> >>>> In my experience with M.A. Nahuatl, the labialized [kw] has >>>> simplified to [w], so te:uctli is pronounced [te:wtli] (the name of >>>> the local sacred mountain). The 'boss, bureaucrat' word derived >>>> from the spelling pronunciation is pronounced [te:kohtli] with the >>>> [h] here representing the local pronunciation of the glottal stop. >>>> But the o/u distinction being nonsignificant in most varieties of >>>> spoken Nahuatl, including M.A. as I know it, it might be pronounced >>>> more like [te:kuhtli]. >>>> >>>> >>>>> In the accompanying book, in the vocabulary list, I find >>>>> "tecu'tli, (sust.) dirigente, gobernante." I also see the root >>>>> with the kw > k shift in the word "tecpampa, (sust.) palacio, >>>>> oficina." El Maestro Xochime is from Milpa Alta (in southeastern >>>>> Mexico City). I assume that the unusual (for a native speaker) >>>>> pronunciation [te:ku?tli] is the result of influence from Mexico >>>>> City academics of the Garibay school. Fran (or others): do you >>>>> have any information or comments on this? >>>> >>>> It might well be. I just think of it as spelling pronunciation. >>>> The spelling "tecuhtli" managed to mislead Thelma Sullivan, who >>>> used the word in her Compendio as an example of how the -tli form >>>> of the absolutive suffix is used after saltillo (glottal stop). >>>> Perhaps this was inherited from her teacher, who was none other >>>> than Garibay. >>>> >>>> >>>> Fran >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Thu Oct 25 01:24:20 2007 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:24:20 -0500 Subject: Teuctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fran, I don`t see very much influence of the Catholic Church in the communities I visit in northern Veracruz. None have a church. Parallel ceremonies are conducted for weddings (church and traditional indigenous), but the Church has absolutely nothing to do with ceremonies of death. Family alters have pictures of saints, but even in this case, the concept of "saint" is indistiguishable from that of the natural spirits which inhabit mountains. If there was an initial round of baptisms during the colonial period, it looks to me like the priest then packed up and moved back into the municipal centers where they remain to this day. The word final position of the original "-uc" in "itecoh" may have something to do with its changing into "coh". I've been trying to think of other words that end like this, but I can't come up with any. "neuctli", for example goes to "ineuchui" (i-neuc-hui) or "inechui" (i-nec-hui) depending on how you want to spell it. John On Oct 23, 2007, at 7:08 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > On Oct 23, 2007, at 5:44 PM, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > >> Sorry for the late comment on this topic. In Northern Veracruz >> Nahuatl, we also have "tecohtli", "due?o", and "itecoh", "su >> due?o". But I can't see how this could be a spelling >> pronunciation. The Huasteca is peripheral to the Central Mexican >> writing tradition, and I just can't see literacy as having had any >> significant impact on speech in this area. Also, in this region a >> syllable final "w" sounds very much like an "h", perhaps a bit >> more prolonged. In Tamazunchale, only a few hours away, the sound >> is still pretty much like the "h", but the rounding is perceptible. >> John >> > > > I don't know the answer for sure. The difference in Milpa Alta is > that there is regular monosyllabic reflex of teuc- with the core > meaning of 'lord' that contrasts with a bisyllabic stem te.coh- > that has a more contemporary meaning. Plus, M.A. has a long > literary tradition. > > Only thing to consider is the argument I have heard that Central > Mexican honorific morphology is to be found in Huastecan Nahuatl > but only attached to lexical items having to do with Christian > observance and particularly with loanwords from Spanish having to > do with the Church. Is this accurate? I would have to hunt around > for the source of this argument. > > If it's so, it's not hard to imagine that Catholic clergy, even a > long time ago, might have orally transmitted spelling pronunciation > of the stem for 'lord' to Nahuatl speakers with negligible history > of writing. > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tecvm at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 15:50:33 2007 From: tecvm at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Diego_V=E1squez_Monterroso?=) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:50:33 -0700 Subject: Relacin entre nahuatl y chontal de Tabasco Message-ID: Hola a todos: He estado investigando sobre los "chontales" de Tabasco (regi?n de Acal?n) y no s? si me podr?an ayudar a encontrar informaci?n acerca de la relaci?n entre el centro de M?xico y esa regi?n. Ya revis? el libro de Roys de Acalan-Tixchel, pero quisiera saber si hay informaci?n m?s actual. De antemano muchas gracias. Saludos, Diego V?squez Monterroso ____________________________________________________________________________________ ?S? un mejor besador! Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos. http://telemundo.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl