From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Dec  3 22:04:22 2008
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:04:22 -0500
Subject: Nawat/Pipil Bible translation website
Message-ID: <WED.3.DEC.2008.170422.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

From:   "Alan King" <alanrking at yahoo.com>
Date:   Wed, December 3, 2008

The Ne Bibliaj Tik Nawat website was launched last week. Nawat (aka
"Pipil") is a branch of the Nahuan family (partly mutually intelligible
with Nahuatl) and an endangered language spoken by the Pipils of El
Salvador. This is a trilingual site in Spanish, English and Nawat with
information about the Nawat Bible translation project, the language and
related issues of interest. The URL is:

  http://nebibliaj.org

  Alan


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From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 07:07:48 2008
From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:07:48 -0800
Subject: Codex Borbonicus
Message-ID: <WED.3.DEC.2008.230748.0800.>





Estimados listeros,

 

Help!  I’m stuck in
the boondocks of Bulgaria
and have had a devil of a time getting copies of either H.B. Nicholson’s 

 

1966 “The Problem of the Provenience of Codex Borbonicus of
the Members of the “Codex Borbonicus Group”: A Summary.  In Summa antropolgica en homenaje a Roberto
J. Weitlaner: 145-158.  Instituto
Nacional de Antropologia e Historia. Mexico.

 

or 

 

The Provenience of the Codex Borbonicus: A Hypothesis, in Smoke
and Mist: Mesoamerican Studies in Memory of Thelma D. Sullivan, Josser and
and Karen Dakin (eds.), i, pp. 77

 

or 

 




 
  
  N. C Christopher Couch’s The Festival Cycle of the Aztec
  Codex Borbonicus.
   
  Before I expend
  more resources here in trying for hard-to-come-by library loans, could
  someone, in a word, tell me where these scholars have hypothesized the Codex’s
  provenience to be?
   
  Mil gracias,
   
  Tom Grigsby
   
   
   
  
 






G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 

Boboshevo, 2026 Bulgaria

GSM: 359 0899 784 081


      
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From dfrye at umich.edu  Thu Dec  4 16:53:02 2008
From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:53:02 -0500
Subject: Codex Borbonicus
In-Reply-To: <329624.96199.qm@web110010.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.4.DEC.2008.115302.0500.DFRYE@UMICH.EDU>

I don't have the sources you are looking for at hand, but in an article by Maarten Jansen and Gabina Aurora Pérez Jiménez, "Renaming the Mexican Codices" (Ancient Mesoamerica, 15 (2004), 267-271), online at http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?fileI find this:


"The Codex Borbonicus, named for the Palais Bourbon in Paris, where it
was kept, is a Mexica manuscript clearly related to this group. In its
series of year feasts it gives prominence to the role of the high-priest and
to the Dark Temple (Tlillan) of his Divine Patron, the Goddess Cihuacoatl.
19 In the sixteenth century it was sent to the king of Spain and it is
mentioned in the list of "Libros de diversas facultades de la testamentaria
de Felipe II" (1600) as a "libro en folio mayor, de los caciques de
México y de los días que sacrificaban en la semana." Analyzing the
glosses, we conclude that the document comes from the area of Xochimilco,
but to underline its religious character, we prefer to call it Codex
Cihuacoatl."

[BTW, I don't believe that their call to rename all the codices in a rational way, sensible as it may be, has been taken up by other scholars.]

-David

------------


From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of grigsby tom
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:08 AM
To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Nahuat-l] Codex Borbonicus

Estimados listeros,
 
Help!  Im stuck in the boondocks of Bulgaria and have had a devil of a time getting copies of either H.B. Nicholsons 
 
1966 The Problem of the Provenience of Codex Borbonicus of the Members of the Codex Borbonicus Group: A Summary.  In Summa antropolgica en homenaje a Roberto J. Weitlaner: 145-158.  Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia. Mexico.
 
or 
 
The Provenience of the Codex Borbonicus: A Hypothesis, in Smoke and Mist: Mesoamerican Studies in Memory of Thelma D. Sullivan, Josser and and Karen Dakin (eds.), i, pp. 77
 
or 
 
N. C Christopher Couchs The Festival Cycle of the Aztec Codex Borbonicus.
 
Before I expend more resources here in trying for hard-to-come-by library loans, could someone, in a word, tell me where these scholars have hypothesized the Codexs provenience to be?
 
Mil gracias,
 
Tom Grigsby
 
 
 


G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 
Boboshevo, 2026 Bulgaria
GSM: 359 0899 784 081


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From mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu  Mon Dec  8 23:33:18 2008
From: mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu (Molly Bassett)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:33:18 -0800
Subject: ineixcahuil question
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.153318.0800.MBASSETT@UMAIL.UCSB.EDU>

Hi, all.

I'm working through several passages in Sahagún's General History that  
contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the term  
"his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special  
attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they  
determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final - 
l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the  
word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ 
surface?"  [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  
e alguno" (66r).]

ineixcahuil
i-  = possessive pronoun, 3rd person singular
-ne- = nonspecific reflexive object prefix
-ix(tli)- = "eye, face, surface"
-ca(hua)- = "to leave, abandon, relinquish sby/stg"
-hui- = singular possessive suffix
-l = ??

Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
Molly Bassett
______________
Molly Bassett
Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
University of California, Santa Barbara




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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Mon Dec  8 23:58:46 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:58:46 -0500
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <9DD6D0D5-E665-4301-80FC-6E31C9430274@umail.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.185846.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:

Dear Molly,

> Hi, all.
>
> I'm working through several passages in Sahagún's General History
> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
> determined these translations.

This is a good point. In working through Dibble and Anderson with Joe 
Campbell and Pablo Garcia a couple years ago, we came across the 
occasional D & S translation that was truly mystifying. I believe Joe 
has made a collection of these.

In the term you have here, however, the boys are pretty much on the 
mark. Yours is a noun, neixcahuilli, which, when possessed by the third 
singular marker i-, drops the absolutive suffix -li. So, what you have 
on your hands is a possessed noun.

There is a reflexive verb moixcahuia that means 'to work in private, to 
mind your own business, or even 'to do one thing and not anything else'.

As you know, the reflexive nature of the verb requires the ne- prefix 
when a noun is derived from it.

I believe you're right that ix- is 'face' or perhaps 'eye(s)' in this 
case, and cahu- might come form 'cahua', but I don't know for sure 
about that. Somebody will likely pipe in and clear that up, I imagine.

Hope this helps some.

Michael McCafferty


  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
> alguno" (66r).]
>
> ineixcahuil
> i-  > -ne- > -ix(tli)- > -ca(hua)- > -hui- > -l >
> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
> Molly Bassett
> ______________
> Molly Bassett
> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
> University of California, Santa Barbara
>
>
>
>
>




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From cindy at grito-poetry.com  Tue Dec  9 05:00:15 2008
From: cindy at grito-poetry.com (Cindy Williams Gutierrez)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:00:15 -0800
Subject: "r" and "v"?
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.210015.0800.CINDY@GRITOPOETRY.COM>

Hello,

A friend of mine who is a folklorist and professor is publishing a book
about a curandera.  She quotes several Nahuatl poems in the book.  Her copy
editor wants her to identify all the sources of the poetry in detail.  She
doesn't know what the "r" and "v" that follow the folio number of the
codices indicate.  Can someone help?

Thank you, 
Cindy WG

cindy williams gutierrez
poet-dramatist/performer
GRITO poetry/productions
(503) 631-4113
cindy at grito-poetry.com 
www.grito-poetry.com


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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Tue Dec  9 05:07:37 2008
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:07:37 -0800
Subject: "r" and "v"?
In-Reply-To: <000501c959bb$07666fc0$6501a8c0@CINDYDELLPC>
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.210737.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Hi Cindy!  Nice to see you posting!.

It has to do with the side of the folio.  Verso and recto?  No, recto  
and verso... (front and back) sides of the pages.  Wiki has a light- 
hearted explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex


On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Cindy Williams Gutierrez wrote:

> Hello,
>
> A friend of mine who is a folklorist and professor is publishing a  
> book
> about a curandera.  She quotes several Nahuatl poems in the book.   
> Her copy
> editor wants her to identify all the sources of the poetry in  
> detail.  She
> doesn't know what the "r" and "v" that follow the folio number of the
> codices indicate.  Can someone help?
>
> Thank you,
> Cindy WG
>
> cindy williams gutierrez
> poet-dramatist/performer
> GRITO poetry/productions
> (503) 631-4113
> cindy at grito-poetry.com
> www.grito-poetry.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Tue Dec  9 06:08:11 2008
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 01:08:11 -0500
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <9DD6D0D5-E665-4301-80FC-6E31C9430274@umail.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.DEC.2008.010811.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Dear Molly,

   I wish I had Michael's memory, but it would be very unfair to him 
for us to trade.  I'll just add a comment and some examples.

   In the examples below, one can see in the finite verb forms that 
...ixcahuia... involves being concerned with something, concentrating 
on something, etc.

   ninixcahuia     entender solo en algun negocio

   I assume that -cahuia is the benefactive form (often referred to as 
the applicative) of cahua.

   The nominalization of mo-ix-cahui-(a) is ne-ix-cahui-l-li and your 
possessed form follows directly from that.  ... and the 'mo' is 
replaced by the non-specific reflexive 'ne'.

I put the examples below.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe

Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:

> Hi, all.
>
> I'm working through several passages in Sahagún's General History
> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
> determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
> alguno" (66r).]
>
> ineixcahuil
> i-  > -ne- > -ix(tli)- > -ca(hua)- > -hui- > -l >
> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
> Molly Bassett
> ______________
> Molly Bassett
> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
> University of California, Santa Barbara
>
>
>
>
* i:xtli     ca:hua ***

ahtlaixcahua. she is careful.  [ah1-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
ahtleh quixcahua. he is envious of everything, he covets everything.
    [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
aixcahualoni. one who is not to be neglected.  [ah1-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:1-
    ni1] FC.
amechonmotlaixcahualtilia. he [H.] causes you [pl.] to lose.  [p42-o:n-
    p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-ben H1] FC.
anconixcahuia. you [pl.] deal with it exclusively, you [pl.] tend to it
    alone.  [p22-p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
cemixcahuia     cosa.  [p11-p33-cem-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-3.
conixcahua. they take their eyes off him.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
conm[o]ixcahualtia. he neglects it.  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
    FC.
connixcahuaya. they let him out of their sight.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-
    ya3] FC.

ineixcahuil. his personal privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
    FC.
ineixcahuil. his private thing.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
ineixcahuil. its characeristic.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.

ineixcahuilaxcatzin. his [H.] exclusive property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
    ca:hua-ben-l1-a:xca:itl-tzin] FC.
ineixcahuiltoca. its name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl] FC.
ineixcahuiltoca. its proper name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
    to:ca:itl] FC.
ineixcahuiltzin. his possession.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-tzin] FC.
inneixcahuil. .  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
inneixcahuil. their function.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
inneixcahuil. their personal charge.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
inneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
inneixcahuil. their sole property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
    FC.
ixcahua ®h niqu®h oniquixcauh. ser apretado o escasso.  [ah1-
    tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-2.
ixcahua ®h niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    55m-1.
ixcahua ®h niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    71m1-3.
ixcahua ®h niqu. escasso ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
    +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-10.
ixcahua ®h niqu. mezquino ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
    +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-15.
ixcahua ®h qu. cobdicioso de dinero.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    71m1-5.
ixcahua ®h qu. codicioso o escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    71m2-2.
ixcahua ®h qu. escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-10.
ixcahua ®h qu. guardador escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    71m1-12.
ixcahua ®h qu. mezquino.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-15.
ixcahua ®h qu. miserable escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    71m1-15.
ixcahua     negligencia.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
ixcahua     ca:hua] 55m-6.
ixcahua     ca:hua] 71m1-8.
ixcahua ahtleh     [p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua ah1-tleh] 71m2-8.
ixcahualiztli ®h qu. auaricia.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-liz]
    55m-1.
ixcahualiztli ®h qu. auaricia, o escaseza.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-
    ca:hua-liz] 71m1-3.
ixcahualtia     negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
ixcahualtia     defraudado  de algo por mi culpa y negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
    ca:hua-caus01] 71m1-17.
ixcahualtia     descuido y negligencia.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
    +mis_analysis.] 71m2-21.
ixcahualtia     +mis_analysis.4] 55m-5.
ixcahualtia     71m1-7.
ixcahualtia     de alguno.  [p11-p52-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
ixcahualtiliztli     caus01-liz] 55m-5.
ixcahualtiliztli     i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-liz] 71m2-12.
ixcahualtiliztli     caus01-liz] 71m1-7.
ixcahuani ®h qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 55m-1.
ixcahuani ®h qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 71m1-3.
ixcahuia     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-10.
ixcahuia ixcahuia     de alguna cosa, sin partirla con otros.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
    ben] 71m2-8.
ixcahuia     ca:hua-ben] 55m-8.
ixcahuia     ca:hua-ben] 71m1-10.
ixcahuia     que me toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
ixcahuia     ben] 55m-8.
ixcahuia     ben +mis_analysis.2] 71m1-10.
ixcahuia     12.
ixcahuia     ben] 71m1-13.
ixcahuia     ben] 71m2-8.
ixcahuia     p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
ixcahuia ixcahuia ixcahuia     ben] 55m-8.
ixcahuia     ben] 71m1-10.
ixcahuia in inacayo     in poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 55m-3.
ixcahuia in inacayo     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m1-4.
ixcahuia inacayo     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m2-15.
ixcahuiani ixcahuihqui     absorto enel.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 71m2-21.
ixcahuihqui ixcahuil     alguno.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m2-12.
ixcahuil     ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m1-16.
ixcahuil     ca:hua-ben-l1] 55m-14.
ixcahuil in totecuiyo     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1 in poss-te:uctli-yo:tl1] 71m2-7.
ixcahuilchicahualiz     persona.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-12.
ixcahuilchicahualiz     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-25.
ixcahuillahtlacolli     i:xtli-ca:hua-l1-p51-ihtlacahui-l1 +l.for.tl +ltl>ll] 71m2-11.
ixcahuilo. people are concerned, there is attention to.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
    ben-lo:2] FC.
ixcauhticatca. .  [i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-ti1-ca:1a-ca10] FC.
ixcuamacahua     el mecapalli.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-cua:itl-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
ixmacahua     p52-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
ixmacahua     tameme.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, it is their doing.
    [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, they pay heed.
    [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved, they are concerned.  [p54-i:xtli-
    ca:hua-ben] FC.
m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
m[o]ixcahuiaya. they concerned themselves solely.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
    ben-ya3] FC.
m[o]ixcahuiaya. they were solely concerned, they were solely involved.
    [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
m[o]ixcahuicoh. they came concerning themselves (with this).  [p54-
    i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-dir1b] FC.
m[o]ixcahuitica. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
m[o]ixcahuitica. he is dedicated to it.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-
    ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
m[o]ixcahuitoqueh. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-o-plur01] FC.
m[o]ixcahuiz. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
m[o]ixcahuiz. it will be used alone.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
moneixcahuiltzin. your own affair.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
    tzin] FC.
moteixcahuiani. .  [p54-p52-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] FC.
neixcahuilo. there is doing of only one thing.  [p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
    lo:2] FC.
nicn[o]ixcahui. .  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-opt] FC.
onixcahualo. there is carelessness.  [o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:2] FC.
oquixcauhqueh. they forgot him.  [o:-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-plur01]
    FC.
quim[o]ixcahualtia. .  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] FC.
quim[o]ixcahuiaya. .  [p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
quixcahua. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
quixcahua. he neglects him.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
quixcahuia. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuia. he is given to it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuia. he shows preference for it, he tends to it alone.  [p33-
    i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuia. she devotes herself to it; she tends to it alone.  [p33-
    i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuia. they are involved with it only; they tend to it alone.
    [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuia. they devote themselves to it; they tend to it alone.  [p33-
    i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuiaya. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
quixcahuiaya. he attended to just one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
    ya3] FC.
quixcahuiaya. he concerned himself exclusively with it.  [p33-i:xtli-
    ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
quixcahuiaya. they did one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
quixcahuiaya. they specialized in it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
quixcahuihtica. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
tiquixcahuicoh. we came to greet only him.  [p21-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
    dir1b] FC.
tiquixcahuiz. you think only of it.  [p12-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
toneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.


>




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Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From oenthomas at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 15:03:51 2008
From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:03:51 -0600
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <20081209010811.0782dd7w2skcks08@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.DEC.2008.090351.0600.OENTHOMAS@GMAIL.COM>

Friends,
I have a developing friendship with speakers of Nahuatl from Guerrero.
They do not discuss grammar nor have interest in specific meaning.
Morphemes are not analyzed but they just try to convey meaning by body
language and spanish words. They can communicate with people from
Puebla and from the Huasteca even tho they use different words
sometimes.

The European fascination with grammar has not attracted them.

Joe has an excellent library of 'words' that incorporate the morphemes
and have accompanying spanish translations. His lists have often been
of help in attempting to unerstand the 'approximate translation' of
Nahuatl writings. Exact translation seens to be a hangup from European
linguistic habits but does not concern my native speakers. They always
try to help me undeerstand by Spanish approximate words.

Conversation with them is much easier that attempting to read exact
meaning from Nahuatl written stories or legends.

Owen Thomas




On 12/9/08, Campbell,  R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:
> Dear Molly,
>
>    I wish I had Michael's memory, but it would be very unfair to him
> for us to trade.  I'll just add a comment and some examples.
>
>    In the examples below, one can see in the finite verb forms that
> ...ixcahuia... involves being concerned with something, concentrating
> on something, etc.
>
>    ninixcahuia     entender solo en algun negocio
>
>    I assume that -cahuia is the benefactive form (often referred to as
> the applicative) of cahua.
>
>    The nominalization of mo-ix-cahui-(a) is ne-ix-cahui-l-li and your
> possessed form follows directly from that.  ... and the 'mo' is
> replaced by the non-specific reflexive 'ne'.
>
> I put the examples below.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe
>
> Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:
>
>> Hi, all.
>>
>> I'm working through several passages in Sahagún's General History
>> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
>> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
>> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
>> determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
>> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
>> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
>> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
>> alguno" (66r).]
>>
>> ineixcahuil
>> i-   possessive pronoun, 3rd person singular
>> -ne-  nonspecific reflexive object prefix
>> -ix(tli)-  "eye, face, surface"
>> -ca(hua)-  "to leave, abandon, relinquish sby/stg"
>> -hui-  singular possessive suffix
>> -l  ??
>>
>> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
>> Molly Bassett
>> ______________
>> Molly Bassett
>> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
>> University of California, Santa Barbara
>>
>>
>>
>>
> * i:xtli     ca:hua ***
>
> ahtlaixcahua. she is careful.  [ah1-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
> ahtleh quixcahua. he is envious of everything, he covets everything.
>     [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
> aixcahualoni. one who is not to be neglected.  [ah1-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:1-
>     ni1] FC.
> amechonmotlaixcahualtilia. he [H.] causes you [pl.] to lose.  [p42-o:n-
>     p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-ben H1] FC.
> anconixcahuia. you [pl.] deal with it exclusively, you [pl.] tend to it
>     alone.  [p22-p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> cemixcahuia niconiccemixcahui. estar ocupado y entender en sola vna
>     cosa.  [p11-p33-cem-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-3.
> conixcahua. they take their eyes off him.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
> conm[o]ixcahualtia. he neglects it.  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>     FC.
> connixcahuaya. they let him out of their sight.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ya3] FC.
>
> ineixcahuil. his personal privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>     FC.
> ineixcahuil. his private thing.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
> ineixcahuil. its characeristic.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>
> ineixcahuilaxcatzin. his [H.] exclusive property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben-l1-a:xca:itl-tzin] FC.
> ineixcahuiltoca. its name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl] FC.
> ineixcahuiltoca. its proper name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>     to:ca:itl] FC.
> ineixcahuiltzin. his possession.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-tzin] FC.
> inneixcahuil. .  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
> inneixcahuil. their function.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
> inneixcahuil. their personal charge.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
> inneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
> inneixcahuil. their sole property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>     FC.
> ixcahua ahtleh niquatleh oniquixcauh. ser apretado o escasso.  [ah1-
>     tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-2.
> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     55m-1.
> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     71m1-3.
> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. escasso ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-10.
> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. mezquino ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-15.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. cobdicioso de dinero.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     71m1-5.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. codicioso o escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     71m2-2.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-10.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. guardador escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     71m1-12.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. mezquino.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-15.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. miserable escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     71m1-15.
> ixcahua nitlaoniquixcauh. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo y
>     negligencia.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua] 55m-6.
> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuido.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua] 71m1-8.
> ixcahua ahtleh niquahtleh oniquixcauh. ser codicioso de quanto ay.
>     [p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua ah1-tleh] 71m2-8.
> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-liz]
>     55m-1.
> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia, o escaseza.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-liz] 71m1-3.
> ixcahualtia nicnonicnixcahualti. perder algo por su culpa y
>     negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
> ixcahualtia nicn. priuarme yo mismo de alguna cosa o perder y quedar
>     defraudado  de algo por mi culpa y negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-caus01] 71m1-17.
> ixcahualtia ninotlaoninotlaixcahualti. perder alguna cosa porsu
>     descuido y negligencia.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>     +mis_analysis.] 71m2-21.
> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>     +mis_analysis.4] 55m-5.
> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>     71m1-7.
> ixcahualtia nitetlaonitetlaixcahualti. impedir algun bien o prouecho
>     de alguno.  [p11-p52-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     caus01-liz] 55m-5.
> ixcahualtiliztli netla. culpa de negligencia y omission.  [p53-p51-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-liz] 71m2-12.
> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento assi.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     caus01-liz] 71m1-7.
> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 55m-1.
> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 71m1-3.
> ixcahuia mo. cosa sola, o el que asus solas haze alguna cosa.  [p54-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-10.
> ixcahuia mo. sola cosa.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-19.
> ixcahuia nicnonicnixcahui. comermelo yo todo o aprovecharse el solo
>     de alguna cosa, sin partirla con otros.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 71m2-8.
> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben] 55m-8.
> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben] 71m1-10.
> ixcahuia ninoninixcahui. hazer algo asolas, o entender solamente enlo
>     que me toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 55m-8.
> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben +mis_analysis.2] 71m1-10.
> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo a solas.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-
>     12.
> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo por si solo aparte.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 71m1-13.
> ixcahuia niquoniquixcahui. no tener mas de vna cosa.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 71m2-8.
> ixcahuia nitlaonitlaixcahui. entender en sola vna sola cosa.  [p11-
>     p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 55m-7.
> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse en algo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-9.
> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 55m-8.
> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 71m1-10.
> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal hombre vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>     in poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 55m-3.
> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal y vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben in
>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m1-4.
> ixcahuia inacayo qu. persona viciosa y carnal.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m2-15.
> ixcahuiani mo. hazedor assi.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] 71m1-12.
> ixcahuihqui tla. atento o suspenso en algun negocio, estando todo
>     absorto enel.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 71m2-21.
> ixcahuihqui tla. embeuecido.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 55m-7.
> ixcahuil none. cosa que compete, o pertenece ami solo, y no a otro
>     alguno.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m2-12.
> ixcahuil none. oficio proprio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m1-16.
> ixcahuil none. oficio propio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 55m-14.
> ixcahuil in totecuiyo ine. es proprio y pertenece a solo dios.  [poss-
>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1 in poss-te:uctli-yo:tl1] 71m2-7.
> ixcahuilchicahualiz none. esfuerzo, ovirtud de mi propria y sola
>     persona.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-12.
> ixcahuilchicahualiz tone. nuestro proprio esfuerzo o virtud.  [poss-
>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-25.
> ixcahuillahtlacolli ne. culpa especial y propria de alguno.  [p53-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-l1-p51-ihtlacahui-l1 +l.for.tl +ltl>ll] 71m2-11.
> ixcahuilo. people are concerned, there is attention to.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben-lo:2] FC.
> ixcauhticatca. .  [i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-ti1-ca:1a-ca10] FC.
> ixcuamacahua nitla. dar con la carga en tierra, por se auer soltado
>     el mecapalli.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-cua:itl-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
> ixmacahua niteoniteixmacauh. dexar caer al que lleua acuestas.  [p11-
>     p52-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
> ixmacahua nitlaonitlaixmacauh. soltarsele el mecapal dela frente al
>     tameme.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, it is their doing.
>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, they pay heed.
>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved, they are concerned.  [p54-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they concerned themselves solely.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben-ya3] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they were solely concerned, they were solely involved.
>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuicoh. they came concerning themselves (with this).  [p54-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-dir1b] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuitica. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuitica. he is dedicated to it.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-
>     ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuitoqueh. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-o-plur01] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuiz. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuiz. it will be used alone.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
> moneixcahuiltzin. your own affair.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>     tzin] FC.
> moteixcahuiani. .  [p54-p52-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] FC.
> neixcahuilo. there is doing of only one thing.  [p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>     lo:2] FC.
> nicn[o]ixcahui. .  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-opt] FC.
> onixcahualo. there is carelessness.  [o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:2] FC.
> oquixcauhqueh. they forgot him.  [o:-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-plur01]
>     FC.
> quim[o]ixcahualtia. .  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] FC.
> quim[o]ixcahuiaya. .  [p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> quixcahua. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
> quixcahua. he neglects him.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
> quixcahuia. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuia. he is given to it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuia. he shows preference for it, he tends to it alone.  [p33-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuia. she devotes herself to it; she tends to it alone.  [p33-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuia. they are involved with it only; they tend to it alone.
>     [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuia. they devote themselves to it; they tend to it alone.  [p33-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuiaya. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> quixcahuiaya. he attended to just one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>     ya3] FC.
> quixcahuiaya. he concerned himself exclusively with it.  [p33-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> quixcahuiaya. they did one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> quixcahuiaya. they specialized in it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> quixcahuihtica. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
> tiquixcahuicoh. we came to greet only him.  [p21-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>     dir1b] FC.
> tiquixcahuiz. you think only of it.  [p12-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
> toneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


-- 
We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
Owen

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 10 20:54:22 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:54:22 -0500
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0812090703y772ce157g39ea937c0228a2b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.DEC.2008.155422.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:

> Friends
> I have a developing friendship with speakers of Nahuatl from Guerrero.
> They do not discuss grammar nor have interest in specific meaning.
> Morphemes are not analyzed but they just try to convey meaning by body
> language and spanish words. They can communicate with people from
> Puebla and from the Huasteca even tho they use different words
> sometimes.

Nocniuh,

I'm relatively confident that this will not be the last and most 
erudite reply to your email.

But it's important to remember that *most* speakers of *every* language 
in the world are not interested in conceptualizing the grammar or their 
language. Language is for the most part an unconscious activity, and 
most speakers don't have the faintest notion of grammar...or morphology.

To say that the Nahuatl speakers around you have no "interest in 
specific meaning" simply shows that you have some things to learn about 
Nahuatl, Nahuatl speakers, and linguistics in general. That's all there 
is to that notion.



>
> The European fascination with grammar has not attracted them.

The fascination with grammar probably attracts fewer than one percent 
of the people on the planet. However, I do know of a Nahuatl speaker or 
two who are very interested in grammar, and quite good at it.

>
> Joe has an excellent library of 'words' that incorporate the morphemes
> and have accompanying spanish translations. His lists have often been
> of help in attempting to unerstand the 'approximate translation' of
> Nahuatl writings. Exact translation seens to be a hangup from European
> linguistic habits but does not concern my native speakers. They always
> try to help me undeerstand by Spanish approximate words.

Joe's "lists of words" will be, in truth, a cornerstone of the 
scholarship of the language for centuries to come, provided we don't 
blow ourselves up first. Their value is incalculable, and will become 
even more so with future Nahuatl language revitalization efforts in 
Mexico.

In passing, I can only assume that your "approximate translation" 
refers to something you are working on in modern Nahuatl. Note that 
Joe's opus involves three 16th-century dictionaries of the language. 
Perhaps some of the confusion comes from how the language has changed 
in the last 500 years.


>
> Conversation with them is much easier that attempting to read exact
> meaning from Nahuatl written stories or legends.

That may be true in your case. Each person is different. For example, I 
find my English-as-a-second-language Arabic speakers are fantastic when 
it comes to listening and speaking English, but are not good readers.

Michael McCafferty

>
> Owen Thomas
>
>
>
>
> On 12/9/08, Campbell,  R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:
>> Dear Molly,
>>
>>    I wish I had Michael's memory, but it would be very unfair to him
>> for us to trade.  I'll just add a comment and some examples.
>>
>>    In the examples below, one can see in the finite verb forms that
>> ...ixcahuia... involves being concerned with something, concentrating
>> on something, etc.
>>
>>    ninixcahuia     entender solo en algun negocio
>>
>>    I assume that -cahuia is the benefactive form (often referred to as
>> the applicative) of cahua.
>>
>>    The nominalization of mo-ix-cahui-(a) is ne-ix-cahui-l-li and your
>> possessed form follows directly from that.  ... and the 'mo' is
>> replaced by the non-specific reflexive 'ne'.
>>
>> I put the examples below.
>>
>> Iztayohmeh,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:
>>
>>> Hi, all.
>>>
>>> I'm working through several passages in Sahagún's General History
>>> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
>>> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
>>> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
>>> determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
>>> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
>>> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
>>> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
>>> alguno" (66r).]
>>>
>>> ineixcahuil
>>> i-   possessive pronoun, 3rd person singular
>>> -ne-  nonspecific reflexive object prefix
>>> -ix(tli)-  "eye, face, surface"
>>> -ca(hua)-  "to leave, abandon, relinquish sby/stg"
>>> -hui-  singular possessive suffix
>>> -l  ??
>>>
>>> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
>>> Molly Bassett
>>> ______________
>>> Molly Bassett
>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
>>> University of California, Santa Barbara
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> * i:xtli     ca:hua ***
>>
>> ahtlaixcahua. she is careful.  [ah1-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>> ahtleh quixcahua. he is envious of everything, he covets everything.
>>     [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>> aixcahualoni. one who is not to be neglected.  [ah1-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:1-
>>     ni1] FC.
>> amechonmotlaixcahualtilia. he [H.] causes you [pl.] to lose.  [p42-o:n-
>>     p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-ben H1] FC.
>> anconixcahuia. you [pl.] deal with it exclusively, you [pl.] tend to it
>>     alone.  [p22-p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> cemixcahuia niconiccemixcahui. estar ocupado y entender en sola vna
>>     cosa.  [p11-p33-cem-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-3.
>> conixcahua. they take their eyes off him.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>> conm[o]ixcahualtia. he neglects it.  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>     FC.
>> connixcahuaya. they let him out of their sight.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ya3] FC.
>>
>> ineixcahuil. his personal privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>     FC.
>> ineixcahuil. his private thing.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>> ineixcahuil. its characeristic.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>
>> ineixcahuilaxcatzin. his [H.] exclusive property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben-l1-a:xca:itl-tzin] FC.
>> ineixcahuiltoca. its name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl] FC.
>> ineixcahuiltoca. its proper name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>     to:ca:itl] FC.
>> ineixcahuiltzin. his possession.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-tzin] FC.
>> inneixcahuil. .  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>> inneixcahuil. their function.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>> inneixcahuil. their personal charge.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>> inneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>> inneixcahuil. their sole property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>     FC.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niquatleh oniquixcauh. ser apretado o escasso.  [ah1-
>>     tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-2.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     55m-1.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     71m1-3.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. escasso ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-10.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. mezquino ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-15.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. cobdicioso de dinero.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     71m1-5.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. codicioso o escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     71m2-2.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-10.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. guardador escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     71m1-12.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. mezquino.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-15.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. miserable escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     71m1-15.
>> ixcahua nitlaoniquixcauh. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo y
>>     negligencia.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua] 55m-6.
>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuido.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua] 71m1-8.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niquahtleh oniquixcauh. ser codicioso de quanto ay.
>>     [p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua ah1-tleh] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-liz]
>>     55m-1.
>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia, o escaseza.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-liz] 71m1-3.
>> ixcahualtia nicnonicnixcahualti. perder algo por su culpa y
>>     negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahualtia nicn. priuarme yo mismo de alguna cosa o perder y quedar
>>     defraudado  de algo por mi culpa y negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-caus01] 71m1-17.
>> ixcahualtia ninotlaoninotlaixcahualti. perder alguna cosa porsu
>>     descuido y negligencia.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>     +mis_analysis.] 71m2-21.
>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>     +mis_analysis.4] 55m-5.
>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>     71m1-7.
>> ixcahualtia nitetlaonitetlaixcahualti. impedir algun bien o prouecho
>>     de alguno.  [p11-p52-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     caus01-liz] 55m-5.
>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. culpa de negligencia y omission.  [p53-p51-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-liz] 71m2-12.
>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento assi.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     caus01-liz] 71m1-7.
>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 55m-1.
>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 71m1-3.
>> ixcahuia mo. cosa sola, o el que asus solas haze alguna cosa.  [p54-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-10.
>> ixcahuia mo. sola cosa.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-19.
>> ixcahuia nicnonicnixcahui. comermelo yo todo o aprovecharse el solo
>>     de alguna cosa, sin partirla con otros.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben] 55m-8.
>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben] 71m1-10.
>> ixcahuia ninoninixcahui. hazer algo asolas, o entender solamente enlo
>>     que me toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 55m-8.
>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben +mis_analysis.2] 71m1-10.
>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo a solas.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-
>>     12.
>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo por si solo aparte.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 71m1-13.
>> ixcahuia niquoniquixcahui. no tener mas de vna cosa.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahuia nitlaonitlaixcahui. entender en sola vna sola cosa.  [p11-
>>     p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 55m-7.
>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse en algo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-9.
>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 55m-8.
>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 71m1-10.
>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal hombre vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>     in poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 55m-3.
>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal y vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben in
>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m1-4.
>> ixcahuia inacayo qu. persona viciosa y carnal.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m2-15.
>> ixcahuiani mo. hazedor assi.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] 71m1-12.
>> ixcahuihqui tla. atento o suspenso en algun negocio, estando todo
>>     absorto enel.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 71m2-21.
>> ixcahuihqui tla. embeuecido.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 55m-7.
>> ixcahuil none. cosa que compete, o pertenece ami solo, y no a otro
>>     alguno.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m2-12.
>> ixcahuil none. oficio proprio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m1-16.
>> ixcahuil none. oficio propio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 55m-14.
>> ixcahuil in totecuiyo ine. es proprio y pertenece a solo dios.  [poss-
>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1 in poss-te:uctli-yo:tl1] 71m2-7.
>> ixcahuilchicahualiz none. esfuerzo, ovirtud de mi propria y sola
>>     persona.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-12.
>> ixcahuilchicahualiz tone. nuestro proprio esfuerzo o virtud.  [poss-
>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-25.
>> ixcahuillahtlacolli ne. culpa especial y propria de alguno.  [p53-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-l1-p51-ihtlacahui-l1 +l.for.tl +ltl>ll] 71m2-11.
>> ixcahuilo. people are concerned, there is attention to.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben-lo:2] FC.
>> ixcauhticatca. .  [i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-ti1-ca:1a-ca10] FC.
>> ixcuamacahua nitla. dar con la carga en tierra, por se auer soltado
>>     el mecapalli.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-cua:itl-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>> ixmacahua niteoniteixmacauh. dexar caer al que lleua acuestas.  [p11-
>>     p52-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>> ixmacahua nitlaonitlaixmacauh. soltarsele el mecapal dela frente al
>>     tameme.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, it is their doing.
>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, they pay heed.
>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved, they are concerned.  [p54-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they concerned themselves solely.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben-ya3] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they were solely concerned, they were solely involved.
>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuicoh. they came concerning themselves (with this).  [p54-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-dir1b] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuitica. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuitica. he is dedicated to it.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-
>>     ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuitoqueh. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-o-plur01] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuiz. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuiz. it will be used alone.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>> moneixcahuiltzin. your own affair.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>     tzin] FC.
>> moteixcahuiani. .  [p54-p52-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] FC.
>> neixcahuilo. there is doing of only one thing.  [p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>     lo:2] FC.
>> nicn[o]ixcahui. .  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-opt] FC.
>> onixcahualo. there is carelessness.  [o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:2] FC.
>> oquixcauhqueh. they forgot him.  [o:-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-plur01]
>>     FC.
>> quim[o]ixcahualtia. .  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] FC.
>> quim[o]ixcahuiaya. .  [p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> quixcahua. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>> quixcahua. he neglects him.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>> quixcahuia. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuia. he is given to it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuia. he shows preference for it, he tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuia. she devotes herself to it; she tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuia. they are involved with it only; they tend to it alone.
>>     [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuia. they devote themselves to it; they tend to it alone.  [p33-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuiaya. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> quixcahuiaya. he attended to just one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>     ya3] FC.
>> quixcahuiaya. he concerned himself exclusively with it.  [p33-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> quixcahuiaya. they did one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> quixcahuiaya. they specialized in it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> quixcahuihtica. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>> tiquixcahuicoh. we came to greet only him.  [p21-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>     dir1b] FC.
>> tiquixcahuiz. you think only of it.  [p12-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>> toneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
> --
> We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
> Owen
>
> _______________________________________________
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>




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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Dec 11 00:23:51 2008
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:23:51 -0600
Subject: Art�culos
Message-ID: <WED.10.DEC.2008.182351.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Estimados listeros:

 

Quiero compartir con ustedes un artículo mío que salió la semana pasada:

 

“La sociedad prehispánica en las lenguas náhuatl y otomí”, en Acta
Universitaria (Dirección de Investigación y Posgrado, Universidad de
Guanajuato), vol. 18, no. especial 1, sep. 2008, pp. 15-23.

 

El artículo completo, en formato PDF, así como otros textos, se pueden bajar
sin costo ni suscripción (como debe ser) de esta página web:

 

http://www.dinpo.ugto.mx/acta/publicaciones/v18-esp/actav18-esp.htm

 

Hace un año salió otro artículo en la misma revista que podría ser
interesante para los nahuatlatos de esta lista:

 

“La política lingüística en la Nueva España”, en Acta Universitaria
(Dirección de Investigación y Posgrado, Universidad de Guanajuato), vol. 17,
no. 3, sep.-dic. 2007, pp. 5-19.

 

http://www.dinpo.ugto.mx/acta/publicaciones/v17-3/actav17n3.htm

 

Saludos y felices vacaciones de invierno,

 

David Wright

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From oenthomas at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 22:09:17 2008
From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:09:17 -0600
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <20081210155422.lpj797b468k4c44k@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.DEC.2008.160917.0600.OENTHOMAS@GMAIL.COM>

Michael,
My offhand comment about approximate meaning reveals one of my major
hangups; I am distressed when people in discussions often arrive at an
impasse when one cannot accept the specific meaning intended by an
opponent who wants to argue. I prefer to use allternative words and
even extensive sentences in conversation in order to clarify my
meanings.

I have verry limited ability and understand very few expressions in
Nahuatl so my discussions are always approximate due to these peronal
limitqations. I am convinced that very sophisticated thoughts can be
expressed in Nahuatl by those who are masters of Nahuatl grammar when
speaking to others who also are masters of grammar.

Thank you for pointing to my limited ability in linguistics.

Owen Thomas



On 12/10/08, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:
>
>> Friends
>> I have a developing friendship with speakers of Nahuatl from Guerrero.
>> They do not discuss grammar nor have interest in specific meaning.
>> Morphemes are not analyzed but they just try to convey meaning by body
>> language and spanish words. They can communicate with people from
>> Puebla and from the Huasteca even tho they use different words
>> sometimes.
>
> Nocniuh,
>
> I'm relatively confident that this will not be the last and most
> erudite reply to your email.
>
> But it's important to remember that *most* speakers of *every* language
> in the world are not interested in conceptualizing the grammar or their
> language. Language is for the most part an unconscious activity, and
> most speakers don't have the faintest notion of grammar...or morphology.
>
> To say that the Nahuatl speakers around you have no "interest in
> specific meaning" simply shows that you have some things to learn about
> Nahuatl, Nahuatl speakers, and linguistics in general. That's all there
> is to that notion.
>
>
>
>>
>> The European fascination with grammar has not attracted them.
>
> The fascination with grammar probably attracts fewer than one percent
> of the people on the planet. However, I do know of a Nahuatl speaker or
> two who are very interested in grammar, and quite good at it.
>
>>
>> Joe has an excellent library of 'words' that incorporate the morphemes
>> and have accompanying spanish translations. His lists have often been
>> of help in attempting to unerstand the 'approximate translation' of
>> Nahuatl writings. Exact translation seens to be a hangup from European
>> linguistic habits but does not concern my native speakers. They always
>> try to help me undeerstand by Spanish approximate words.
>
> Joe's "lists of words" will be, in truth, a cornerstone of the
> scholarship of the language for centuries to come, provided we don't
> blow ourselves up first. Their value is incalculable, and will become
> even more so with future Nahuatl language revitalization efforts in
> Mexico.
>
> In passing, I can only assume that your "approximate translation"
> refers to something you are working on in modern Nahuatl. Note that
> Joe's opus involves three 16th-century dictionaries of the language.
> Perhaps some of the confusion comes from how the language has changed
> in the last 500 years.
>
>
>>
>> Conversation with them is much easier that attempting to read exact
>> meaning from Nahuatl written stories or legends.
>
> That may be true in your case. Each person is different. For example, I
> find my English-as-a-second-language Arabic speakers are fantastic when
> it comes to listening and speaking English, but are not good readers.
>
> Michael McCafferty
>
>>
>> Owen Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/9/08, Campbell,  R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>> Dear Molly,
>>>
>>>    I wish I had Michael's memory, but it would be very unfair to him
>>> for us to trade.  I'll just add a comment and some examples.
>>>
>>>    In the examples below, one can see in the finite verb forms that
>>> ...ixcahuia... involves being concerned with something, concentrating
>>> on something, etc.
>>>
>>>    ninixcahuia     entender solo en algun negocio
>>>
>>>    I assume that -cahuia is the benefactive form (often referred to as
>>> the applicative) of cahua.
>>>
>>>    The nominalization of mo-ix-cahui-(a) is ne-ix-cahui-l-li and your
>>> possessed form follows directly from that.  ... and the 'mo' is
>>> replaced by the non-specific reflexive 'ne'.
>>>
>>> I put the examples below.
>>>
>>> Iztayohmeh,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:
>>>
>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>
>>>> I'm working through several passages in Sahagún's General History
>>>> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
>>>> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
>>>> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
>>>> determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
>>>> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
>>>> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
>>>> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
>>>> alguno" (66r).]
>>>>
>>>> ineixcahuil
>>>> i-   possessive pronoun, 3rd person singular
>>>> -ne-  nonspecific reflexive object prefix
>>>> -ix(tli)-  "eye, face, surface"
>>>> -ca(hua)-  "to leave, abandon, relinquish sby/stg"
>>>> -hui-  singular possessive suffix
>>>> -l  ??
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
>>>> Molly Bassett
>>>> ______________
>>>> Molly Bassett
>>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
>>>> University of California, Santa Barbara
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> * i:xtli     ca:hua ***
>>>
>>> ahtlaixcahua. she is careful.  [ah1-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>> ahtleh quixcahua. he is envious of everything, he covets everything.
>>>     [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>> aixcahualoni. one who is not to be neglected.  [ah1-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:1-
>>>     ni1] FC.
>>> amechonmotlaixcahualtilia. he [H.] causes you [pl.] to lose.  [p42-o:n-
>>>     p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-ben H1] FC.
>>> anconixcahuia. you [pl.] deal with it exclusively, you [pl.] tend to it
>>>     alone.  [p22-p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> cemixcahuia niconiccemixcahui. estar ocupado y entender en sola vna
>>>     cosa.  [p11-p33-cem-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-3.
>>> conixcahua. they take their eyes off him.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>> conm[o]ixcahualtia. he neglects it.  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>>     FC.
>>> connixcahuaya. they let him out of their sight.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ya3] FC.
>>>
>>> ineixcahuil. his personal privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>>     FC.
>>> ineixcahuil. his private thing.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>> ineixcahuil. its characeristic.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>
>>> ineixcahuilaxcatzin. his [H.] exclusive property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1-a:xca:itl-tzin] FC.
>>> ineixcahuiltoca. its name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl] FC.
>>> ineixcahuiltoca. its proper name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>>     to:ca:itl] FC.
>>> ineixcahuiltzin. his possession.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-tzin]
>>> FC.
>>> inneixcahuil. .  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>> inneixcahuil. their function.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>> inneixcahuil. their personal charge.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>> inneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>> inneixcahuil. their sole property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>>     FC.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niquatleh oniquixcauh. ser apretado o escasso.  [ah1-
>>>     tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-2.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     55m-1.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     71m1-3.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. escasso ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-10.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. mezquino ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-15.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. cobdicioso de dinero.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     71m1-5.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. codicioso o escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     71m2-2.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-10.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. guardador escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     71m1-12.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. mezquino.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-15.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. miserable escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     71m1-15.
>>> ixcahua nitlaoniquixcauh. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo y
>>>     negligencia.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua] 55m-6.
>>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuido.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua] 71m1-8.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niquahtleh oniquixcauh. ser codicioso de quanto ay.
>>>     [p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua ah1-tleh] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-liz]
>>>     55m-1.
>>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia, o escaseza.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-liz] 71m1-3.
>>> ixcahualtia nicnonicnixcahualti. perder algo por su culpa y
>>>     negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahualtia nicn. priuarme yo mismo de alguna cosa o perder y quedar
>>>     defraudado  de algo por mi culpa y negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-caus01] 71m1-17.
>>> ixcahualtia ninotlaoninotlaixcahualti. perder alguna cosa porsu
>>>     descuido y negligencia.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>>     +mis_analysis.] 71m2-21.
>>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>>     +mis_analysis.4] 55m-5.
>>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>>     71m1-7.
>>> ixcahualtia nitetlaonitetlaixcahualti. impedir algun bien o prouecho
>>>     de alguno.  [p11-p52-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     caus01-liz] 55m-5.
>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. culpa de negligencia y omission.  [p53-p51-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-liz] 71m2-12.
>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento assi.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     caus01-liz] 71m1-7.
>>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 55m-1.
>>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 71m1-3.
>>> ixcahuia mo. cosa sola, o el que asus solas haze alguna cosa.  [p54-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-10.
>>> ixcahuia mo. sola cosa.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-19.
>>> ixcahuia nicnonicnixcahui. comermelo yo todo o aprovecharse el solo
>>>     de alguna cosa, sin partirla con otros.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben] 55m-8.
>>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben] 71m1-10.
>>> ixcahuia ninoninixcahui. hazer algo asolas, o entender solamente enlo
>>>     que me toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 55m-8.
>>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben +mis_analysis.2] 71m1-10.
>>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo a solas.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-
>>>     12.
>>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo por si solo aparte.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 71m1-13.
>>> ixcahuia niquoniquixcahui. no tener mas de vna cosa.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahuia nitlaonitlaixcahui. entender en sola vna sola cosa.  [p11-
>>>     p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 55m-7.
>>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse en algo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-9.
>>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 55m-8.
>>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 71m1-10.
>>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal hombre vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>>     in poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 55m-3.
>>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal y vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben in
>>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m1-4.
>>> ixcahuia inacayo qu. persona viciosa y carnal.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m2-15.
>>> ixcahuiani mo. hazedor assi.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] 71m1-12.
>>> ixcahuihqui tla. atento o suspenso en algun negocio, estando todo
>>>     absorto enel.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 71m2-21.
>>> ixcahuihqui tla. embeuecido.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 55m-7.
>>> ixcahuil none. cosa que compete, o pertenece ami solo, y no a otro
>>>     alguno.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m2-12.
>>> ixcahuil none. oficio proprio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m1-16.
>>> ixcahuil none. oficio propio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 55m-14.
>>> ixcahuil in totecuiyo ine. es proprio y pertenece a solo dios.  [poss-
>>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1 in poss-te:uctli-yo:tl1] 71m2-7.
>>> ixcahuilchicahualiz none. esfuerzo, ovirtud de mi propria y sola
>>>     persona.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-12.
>>> ixcahuilchicahualiz tone. nuestro proprio esfuerzo o virtud.  [poss-
>>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-25.
>>> ixcahuillahtlacolli ne. culpa especial y propria de alguno.  [p53-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-l1-p51-ihtlacahui-l1 +l.for.tl +ltl>ll] 71m2-11.
>>> ixcahuilo. people are concerned, there is attention to.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben-lo:2] FC.
>>> ixcauhticatca. .  [i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-ti1-ca:1a-ca10] FC.
>>> ixcuamacahua nitla. dar con la carga en tierra, por se auer soltado
>>>     el mecapalli.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-cua:itl-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>> ixmacahua niteoniteixmacauh. dexar caer al que lleua acuestas.  [p11-
>>>     p52-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>> ixmacahua nitlaonitlaixmacauh. soltarsele el mecapal dela frente al
>>>     tameme.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, it is their doing.
>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, they pay heed.
>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved, they are concerned.  [p54-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they concerned themselves solely.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben-ya3] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they were solely concerned, they were solely involved.
>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuicoh. they came concerning themselves (with this).  [p54-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-dir1b] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuitica. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuitica. he is dedicated to it.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-
>>>     ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuitoqueh. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-o-plur01] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuiz. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuiz. it will be used alone.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>> moneixcahuiltzin. your own affair.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>>     tzin] FC.
>>> moteixcahuiani. .  [p54-p52-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] FC.
>>> neixcahuilo. there is doing of only one thing.  [p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>     lo:2] FC.
>>> nicn[o]ixcahui. .  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-opt] FC.
>>> onixcahualo. there is carelessness.  [o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:2] FC.
>>> oquixcauhqueh. they forgot him.  [o:-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-plur01]
>>>     FC.
>>> quim[o]ixcahualtia. .  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] FC.
>>> quim[o]ixcahuiaya. .  [p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahua. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>> quixcahua. he neglects him.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. he is given to it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. he shows preference for it, he tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. she devotes herself to it; she tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. they are involved with it only; they tend to it alone.
>>>     [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. they devote themselves to it; they tend to it alone.  [p33-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuiaya. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahuiaya. he attended to just one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>     ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahuiaya. he concerned himself exclusively with it.  [p33-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahuiaya. they did one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahuiaya. they specialized in it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahuihtica. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>> tiquixcahuicoh. we came to greet only him.  [p21-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>     dir1b] FC.
>>> tiquixcahuiz. you think only of it.  [p12-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>> toneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
>> Owen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
>


-- 
We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
Owen

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From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Thu Dec 11 15:04:16 2008
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:04:16 +0100
Subject: Neixcahuil
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.160416.0100.>

To Molly Bassett:

First your personal e-mail address isn't correct! 

Neixcahuilli: private things See R.Andrews Intro.446

In the possesive form:

*   Teneixcahuil: the private things of someone.

*   Intonal, imaxca, inneixcahuil intlahtoqueh: it is the privilege, the
property, the personel things of the Lords. Cod.Flor.XI,213v.

*   In huil inexcahuil: his private things.Sah.12.49.

*   Zan huel inexcahuil huel itonal: they were his alone, his
prerogative.Sah.12.5

*   Toneixcahuil: our private things.SIS.1952,329.

*   In tiyahcahuan tlacochcalcatl tlacateccatl in inneixcahuil yaotequi: the
brave wariors, the generals and the commanding generals whose personel
charge was command in war.Sah.8.73.

*   In huehuetqueh ihuan in ilamatqueh zan inneixcahuil catca in
tlahuanayah: it was the privelege of the old men and women of drinking
pulque.Sah.2.106.

*   Motecuihtotiah in teteuctin zan inneixcahuil catca in tlahtohqueh in
motecuihto tiayah: the Lords danse the dans of the Lords, it was their
exclusive privilege.

*   In tlein inneixcahuil impan mochihuaya: what in particular was done to
them.Sah.6.205

 

Baert Georges

Lahun Ik 62

Flanders Fields

 

 

 

 

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Dec 11 18:49:38 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:49:38 -0500
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0812101409u212061b5g642e0f6f03493ef9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.134938.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:

> Michael,
> My offhand comment about approximate meaning reveals one of my major
> hangups; I am distressed when people in discussions often arrive at an
> impasse when one cannot accept the specific meaning intended by an
> opponent who wants to argue. I prefer to use allternative words and
> even extensive sentences in conversation in order to clarify my
> meanings.
>
> I have verry limited ability and understand very few expressions in
> Nahuatl so my discussions are always approximate due to these peronal
> limitqations. I am convinced that very sophisticated thoughts can be
> expressed in Nahuatl by those who are masters of Nahuatl grammar when
> speaking to others who also are masters of grammar.

Every speaker, Owen, is a "master of grammar". Four-year-olds worldwide 
are already masters of their respective grammars. Every street vendor 
you meet who speaks Nahuatl fluently is an absolute master of grammar. 
Of course, being able to describe one's grammar is a completely 
different animal.

Now, there are indeed cases where people lose their mother tongue and 
thus lose their ability to navigate in the native language, 
syntactically speaking. Costa offers a memorable example for the 
Algonquian language Miami-Illinois, which lost its last native speaker 
in the 1960s. He mentions in his _The Miami-Illinois Language_ that the 
last recording of a partial speaker was done in the early 60s, and he 
offers one sentence from that recording that reveals language attrition 
in a fellow who was a speaker of the language in his youth.

The example is "Niila kineepikomeekwa moohci wiihsinilo," translated "I 
don't eat eel."

Niila, which is "I" is almost never seen as the subject of a verb;

moohci, which is "not" is never used to negate a verb (the negative 
conjunction is used);

and "wiihsinilo" is the singular *command* form of the verb 'eat', not 
the first-person singular form.

The guy certainly remembered something, but nothing grammatical.


>
> Thank you for pointing to my limited ability in linguistics.

*Everyone* has limited ability in linguistics, even Chomsky. :-) 
There's no end to the road.

All best,

Michael

>
> Owen Thomas
>
>
>
> On 12/10/08, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>> Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Friends
>>> I have a developing friendship with speakers of Nahuatl from Guerrero.
>>> They do not discuss grammar nor have interest in specific meaning.
>>> Morphemes are not analyzed but they just try to convey meaning by body
>>> language and spanish words. They can communicate with people from
>>> Puebla and from the Huasteca even tho they use different words
>>> sometimes.
>>
>> Nocniuh,
>>
>> I'm relatively confident that this will not be the last and most
>> erudite reply to your email.
>>
>> But it's important to remember that *most* speakers of *every* language
>> in the world are not interested in conceptualizing the grammar or their
>> language. Language is for the most part an unconscious activity, and
>> most speakers don't have the faintest notion of grammar...or morphology.
>>
>> To say that the Nahuatl speakers around you have no "interest in
>> specific meaning" simply shows that you have some things to learn about
>> Nahuatl, Nahuatl speakers, and linguistics in general. That's all there
>> is to that notion.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The European fascination with grammar has not attracted them.
>>
>> The fascination with grammar probably attracts fewer than one percent
>> of the people on the planet. However, I do know of a Nahuatl speaker or
>> two who are very interested in grammar, and quite good at it.
>>
>>>
>>> Joe has an excellent library of 'words' that incorporate the morphemes
>>> and have accompanying spanish translations. His lists have often been
>>> of help in attempting to unerstand the 'approximate translation' of
>>> Nahuatl writings. Exact translation seens to be a hangup from European
>>> linguistic habits but does not concern my native speakers. They always
>>> try to help me undeerstand by Spanish approximate words.
>>
>> Joe's "lists of words" will be, in truth, a cornerstone of the
>> scholarship of the language for centuries to come, provided we don't
>> blow ourselves up first. Their value is incalculable, and will become
>> even more so with future Nahuatl language revitalization efforts in
>> Mexico.
>>
>> In passing, I can only assume that your "approximate translation"
>> refers to something you are working on in modern Nahuatl. Note that
>> Joe's opus involves three 16th-century dictionaries of the language.
>> Perhaps some of the confusion comes from how the language has changed
>> in the last 500 years.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Conversation with them is much easier that attempting to read exact
>>> meaning from Nahuatl written stories or legends.
>>
>> That may be true in your case. Each person is different. For example, I
>> find my English-as-a-second-language Arabic speakers are fantastic when
>> it comes to listening and speaking English, but are not good readers.
>>
>> Michael McCafferty
>>
>>>
>>> Owen Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/9/08, Campbell,  R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>> Dear Molly,
>>>>
>>>>    I wish I had Michael's memory, but it would be very unfair to him
>>>> for us to trade.  I'll just add a comment and some examples.
>>>>
>>>>    In the examples below, one can see in the finite verb forms that
>>>> ...ixcahuia... involves being concerned with something, concentrating
>>>> on something, etc.
>>>>
>>>>    ninixcahuia     entender solo en algun negocio
>>>>
>>>>    I assume that -cahuia is the benefactive form (often referred to as
>>>> the applicative) of cahua.
>>>>
>>>>    The nominalization of mo-ix-cahui-(a) is ne-ix-cahui-l-li and your
>>>> possessed form follows directly from that.  ... and the 'mo' is
>>>> replaced by the non-specific reflexive 'ne'.
>>>>
>>>> I put the examples below.
>>>>
>>>> Iztayohmeh,
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm working through several passages in Sahagún's General History
>>>>> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
>>>>> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
>>>>> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
>>>>> determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
>>>>> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
>>>>> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
>>>>> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
>>>>> alguno" (66r).]
>>>>>
>>>>> ineixcahuil
>>>>> i-   possessive pronoun, 3rd person singular
>>>>> -ne-  nonspecific reflexive object prefix
>>>>> -ix(tli)-  "eye, face, surface"
>>>>> -ca(hua)-  "to leave, abandon, relinquish sby/stg"
>>>>> -hui-  singular possessive suffix
>>>>> -l  ??
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
>>>>> Molly Bassett
>>>>> ______________
>>>>> Molly Bassett
>>>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
>>>>> University of California, Santa Barbara
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> * i:xtli     ca:hua ***
>>>>
>>>> ahtlaixcahua. she is careful.  [ah1-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>>> ahtleh quixcahua. he is envious of everything, he covets everything.
>>>>     [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>>> aixcahualoni. one who is not to be neglected.  [ah1-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:1-
>>>>     ni1] FC.
>>>> amechonmotlaixcahualtilia. he [H.] causes you [pl.] to lose.  [p42-o:n-
>>>>     p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-ben H1] FC.
>>>> anconixcahuia. you [pl.] deal with it exclusively, you [pl.] tend to it
>>>>     alone.  [p22-p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> cemixcahuia niconiccemixcahui. estar ocupado y entender en sola vna
>>>>     cosa.  [p11-p33-cem-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-3.
>>>> conixcahua. they take their eyes off him.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>>> conm[o]ixcahualtia. he neglects it.  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>>>     FC.
>>>> connixcahuaya. they let him out of their sight.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ya3] FC.
>>>>
>>>> ineixcahuil. his personal privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>>>     FC.
>>>> ineixcahuil. his private thing.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>> ineixcahuil. its characeristic.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>>
>>>> ineixcahuilaxcatzin. his [H.] exclusive property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1-a:xca:itl-tzin] FC.
>>>> ineixcahuiltoca. its name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl] FC.
>>>> ineixcahuiltoca. its proper name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>>>     to:ca:itl] FC.
>>>> ineixcahuiltzin. his possession.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-tzin]
>>>> FC.
>>>> inneixcahuil. .  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>> inneixcahuil. their function.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>> inneixcahuil. their personal charge.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>> inneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>> inneixcahuil. their sole property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>>>     FC.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niquatleh oniquixcauh. ser apretado o escasso.  [ah1-
>>>>     tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-2.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     55m-1.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     71m1-3.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. escasso ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-10.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. mezquino ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-15.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. cobdicioso de dinero.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     71m1-5.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. codicioso o escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     71m2-2.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-10.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. guardador escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     71m1-12.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. mezquino.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-15.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. miserable escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     71m1-15.
>>>> ixcahua nitlaoniquixcauh. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo y
>>>>     negligencia.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua] 55m-6.
>>>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuido.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua] 71m1-8.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niquahtleh oniquixcauh. ser codicioso de quanto ay.
>>>>     [p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua ah1-tleh] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-liz]
>>>>     55m-1.
>>>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia, o escaseza.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-liz] 71m1-3.
>>>> ixcahualtia nicnonicnixcahualti. perder algo por su culpa y
>>>>     negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahualtia nicn. priuarme yo mismo de alguna cosa o perder y quedar
>>>>     defraudado  de algo por mi culpa y negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-caus01] 71m1-17.
>>>> ixcahualtia ninotlaoninotlaixcahualti. perder alguna cosa porsu
>>>>     descuido y negligencia.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>>>     +mis_analysis.] 71m2-21.
>>>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>>>     +mis_analysis.4] 55m-5.
>>>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>>>     71m1-7.
>>>> ixcahualtia nitetlaonitetlaixcahualti. impedir algun bien o prouecho
>>>>     de alguno.  [p11-p52-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     caus01-liz] 55m-5.
>>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. culpa de negligencia y omission.  [p53-p51-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-liz] 71m2-12.
>>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento assi.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     caus01-liz] 71m1-7.
>>>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 55m-1.
>>>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 71m1-3.
>>>> ixcahuia mo. cosa sola, o el que asus solas haze alguna cosa.  [p54-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-10.
>>>> ixcahuia mo. sola cosa.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-19.
>>>> ixcahuia nicnonicnixcahui. comermelo yo todo o aprovecharse el solo
>>>>     de alguna cosa, sin partirla con otros.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben] 55m-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben] 71m1-10.
>>>> ixcahuia ninoninixcahui. hazer algo asolas, o entender solamente enlo
>>>>     que me toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 55m-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben +mis_analysis.2] 71m1-10.
>>>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo a solas.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-
>>>>     12.
>>>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo por si solo aparte.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 71m1-13.
>>>> ixcahuia niquoniquixcahui. no tener mas de vna cosa.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nitlaonitlaixcahui. entender en sola vna sola cosa.  [p11-
>>>>     p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 55m-7.
>>>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse en algo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-9.
>>>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 55m-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 71m1-10.
>>>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal hombre vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>>>     in poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 55m-3.
>>>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal y vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben in
>>>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m1-4.
>>>> ixcahuia inacayo qu. persona viciosa y carnal.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m2-15.
>>>> ixcahuiani mo. hazedor assi.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] 71m1-12.
>>>> ixcahuihqui tla. atento o suspenso en algun negocio, estando todo
>>>>     absorto enel.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 71m2-21.
>>>> ixcahuihqui tla. embeuecido.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 55m-7.
>>>> ixcahuil none. cosa que compete, o pertenece ami solo, y no a otro
>>>>     alguno.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m2-12.
>>>> ixcahuil none. oficio proprio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m1-16.
>>>> ixcahuil none. oficio propio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 55m-14.
>>>> ixcahuil in totecuiyo ine. es proprio y pertenece a solo dios.  [poss-
>>>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1 in poss-te:uctli-yo:tl1] 71m2-7.
>>>> ixcahuilchicahualiz none. esfuerzo, ovirtud de mi propria y sola
>>>>     persona.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-12.
>>>> ixcahuilchicahualiz tone. nuestro proprio esfuerzo o virtud.  [poss-
>>>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-25.
>>>> ixcahuillahtlacolli ne. culpa especial y propria de alguno.  [p53-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-l1-p51-ihtlacahui-l1 +l.for.tl +ltl>ll] 71m2-11.
>>>> ixcahuilo. people are concerned, there is attention to.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben-lo:2] FC.
>>>> ixcauhticatca. .  [i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-ti1-ca:1a-ca10] FC.
>>>> ixcuamacahua nitla. dar con la carga en tierra, por se auer soltado
>>>>     el mecapalli.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-cua:itl-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixmacahua niteoniteixmacauh. dexar caer al que lleua acuestas.  [p11-
>>>>     p52-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixmacahua nitlaonitlaixmacauh. soltarsele el mecapal dela frente al
>>>>     tameme.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, it is their doing.
>>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, they pay heed.
>>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved, they are concerned.  [p54-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they concerned themselves solely.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they were solely concerned, they were solely involved.
>>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuicoh. they came concerning themselves (with this).  [p54-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-dir1b] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuitica. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuitica. he is dedicated to it.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-
>>>>     ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuitoqueh. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-o-plur01] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuiz. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuiz. it will be used alone.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>>> moneixcahuiltzin. your own affair.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>>>     tzin] FC.
>>>> moteixcahuiani. .  [p54-p52-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] FC.
>>>> neixcahuilo. there is doing of only one thing.  [p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>>     lo:2] FC.
>>>> nicn[o]ixcahui. .  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-opt] FC.
>>>> onixcahualo. there is carelessness.  [o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:2] FC.
>>>> oquixcauhqueh. they forgot him.  [o:-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-plur01]
>>>>     FC.
>>>> quim[o]ixcahualtia. .  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] FC.
>>>> quim[o]ixcahuiaya. .  [p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahua. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>>> quixcahua. he neglects him.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. he is given to it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. he shows preference for it, he tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. she devotes herself to it; she tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. they are involved with it only; they tend to it alone.
>>>>     [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. they devote themselves to it; they tend to it alone.  [p33-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuiaya. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahuiaya. he attended to just one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>>     ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahuiaya. he concerned himself exclusively with it.  [p33-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahuiaya. they did one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahuiaya. they specialized in it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahuihtica. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>>> tiquixcahuicoh. we came to greet only him.  [p21-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>>     dir1b] FC.
>>>> tiquixcahuiz. you think only of it.  [p12-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>>> toneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
>>> Owen
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
> Owen
>




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From dfrye at umich.edu  Thu Dec 11 20:44:37 2008
From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:44:37 -0500
Subject: "r" and "v"?
In-Reply-To: <000501c959bb$07666fc0$6501a8c0@CINDYDELLPC>
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.154437.0500.DFRYE@UMICH.EDU>

Apologies if this has already been answered...

Manuscript books (codices), at least from the colonial era, almost
always number sheets of paper, not pages. So the first page will be 1,
the second page will have no number, the third page will be 2, etc. This
system worked well enough for the people who wrote and read the
manuscripts, but when modern scholars cite texts from the old books we
want to know which side of the paper we are looking at, so we add "r"
for "recto" and "v" for "verso". The front of sheet 1 (page 1) is 1r,
and the unnumbered back of sheet one (page 2) is 1v, then 2r and 2v,
etc.

But you don't really need to know this for the footnotes -- just cite
them as they stand: 1v, 16r, etc.

-David


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Frye
Latin American & Caribbean Studies - LACS
International Institute, University of Michigan
3624 School of Social Work Bldg (note our new office address!)
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106
tel (734) 647 0844 - fax (734) 615-8880
http://www.ii.umich.edu/lacs/ 






-----Original Message-----
From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
[mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Williams
Gutierrez
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:00 AM
To: 'Nahuat-l ((messages))'
Cc: 'Grad Loaner'
Subject: [Nahuat-l] "r" and "v"?

Hello,

A friend of mine who is a folklorist and professor is publishing a book
about a curandera.  She quotes several Nahuatl poems in the book.  Her
copy editor wants her to identify all the sources of the poetry in
detail.  She doesn't know what the "r" and "v" that follow the folio
number of the codices indicate.  Can someone help?

Thank you, 
Cindy WG

cindy williams gutierrez
poet-dramatist/performer
GRITO poetry/productions
(503) 631-4113
cindy at grito-poetry.com 
www.grito-poetry.com


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From neinast at worldnet.att.net  Tue Dec 30 21:25:53 2008
From: neinast at worldnet.att.net (Robert A. Neinast)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:25:53 -0500
Subject: Chicago's Field Museum
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.162553.0500.NEINAST@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>

I was at the Field Museum this past Sunday, where they currently
have their "The Aztec World" exhibit (through April 19). It's
a nice exhibit, but . . .

But I drove my wife nuts, because I could not refrain from
commenting about nearly every descriptive plaque, which
"told" us how to pronounce some the of the nahuatl words.

An example that illustrates the problem:

  tecuhtli (teh-COOT-lee).

Yes, that it what they had. They also had other
abominations like

  cuauhtin (kwah-oo-teen).

In splitting syllables, they also split "tl" and "tz",
putting the "t" at the end of one syllable,and the
"l" or "z" at the beginning of the next. Oh, and for a final
"tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".

Why, oh why, couldn't they have consulted somebody who
knew something?

Bob
-- 
" . . . and shun the Frumious Bandersnatch."
Robert A. Neinast
Pickerington, OH
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From cberry at cine.net  Tue Dec 30 21:49:47 2008
From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:49:47 -0800
Subject: Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <495A91E1.4000102@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.134947.0800.CBERRY@CINE.NET>

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Robert A. Neinast
<neinast at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> An example that illustrates the problem:
>
>  tecuhtli (teh-COOT-lee).

Ouch.  Of course, that's how I was first taught to say it (by someone
who thought of himself as an expert...oh, well).  I'm still trying to
master that glottal sound, but I know now it's a two-syllable word, at
least.

> Yes, that it what they had. They also had other
> abominations like
>
>  cuauhtin (kwah-oo-teen).

How would you render that properly into informal phonetics?

> In splitting syllables, they also split "tl" and "tz",
> putting the "t" at the end of one syllable,and the
> "l" or "z" at the beginning of the next. Oh, and for a final
> "tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".

Given they couldn't station a staff person by each sign to teach how
to do the tongue positioning that produces the terminal -tl sound, I'd
say this was a reasonable compromise.  It's what I tell newbies to do,
just to get them from e.g. coh-AH-tul to COH-aht; the next step is
then to teach them the -tl trick.

-- 
Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/
"Lots of things in the universe don't solve any problems, and
nevertheless exist."  -- Sean Carroll
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From neinast at worldnet.att.net  Tue Dec 30 22:01:58 2008
From: neinast at worldnet.att.net (Robert A. Neinast)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:01:58 -0500
Subject: Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <8dee73060812301349w52bdff79y4f8bec0510ca843f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.170158.0500.NEINAST@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>

Craig Berry wrote:
>> Yes, that it what they had. They also had other
>> abominations like
>>
>>  cuauhtin (kwah-oo-teen).
> 
> How would you render that properly into informal phonetics?

I'd go with kwow-teen.

> Given they couldn't station a staff person by each sign to teach how
> to do the tongue positioning that produces the terminal -tl sound, I'd
> say this was a reasonable compromise.

Yeah, probably. This was definitely the least of
my complaints.

By the way, I just noticed on their web page,
<http://www.fieldmuseum.org/aztecs/intro.asp>,
they include a lot of their pronunciations.

So everybody else here can see what they did
and groan. :-) (You can also see when they did
it right.)

Bob
-- 
" . . . and shun the Frumious Bandersnatch."
Robert A. Neinast
Pickerington, OH
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 31 04:27:51 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:27:51 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re:  Chicago's Field Museum
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.232751.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

----- Forwarded message from mmccaffe at indiana.edu -----
    Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:26:14 -0500
    From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Reply-To: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Chicago's Field Museum
      To: Craig Berry <cberry at cine.net>

Quoting Craig Berry <cberry at cine.net>:

> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Robert A. Neinast
> <neinast at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> An example that illustrates the problem:
>>
>>  tecuhtli (teh-COOT-lee).
>
> Ouch.  Of course, that's how I was first taught to say it (by someone
> who thought of himself as an expert...oh, well).  I'm still trying to
> master that glottal sound, but I know now it's a two-syllable word, at
> least.

There's no glottal stop in this term. It's /te:kwLi/, where : indicates
a long vowel and L is the phoneme written with the digraph tl in the
classic Spanish orthography. The first syllable /te:kw-/ receives the
"stress".

>
>> Yes, that it what they had. They also had other
>> abominations like
>>
>>  cuauhtin (kwah-oo-teen).
>
> How would you render that properly into informal phonetics?

Well, this "kwah-oo-teen" is not really an abomination. It's actually
pretty decent informal phonetics. Would've been better had they put an
accent marker over the first syllable kwah- to show where the "stress"
falls.


>
>> In splitting syllables, they also split "tl" and "tz",
>> putting the "t" at the end of one syllable,and the
>> "l" or "z" at the beginning of the next.

That's pretty sloppy, gotta admit.


Oh, and for a final
>> "tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".
>

It's like that in some dialects, so it's not a great offense.


Michael



> Given they couldn't station a staff person by each sign to teach how
> to do the tongue positioning that produces the terminal -tl sound, I'd
> say this was a reasonable compromise.  It's what I tell newbies to do,
> just to get them from e.g. coh-AH-tul to COH-aht; the next step is
> then to teach them the -tl trick.
>
> --
> Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/
> "Lots of things in the universe don't solve any problems, and
> nevertheless exist."  -- Sean Carroll
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>




----- End forwarded message -----


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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 31 04:29:45 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:29:45 -0500
Subject: Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <495A9A56.8060003@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.232945.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting "Robert A. Neinast" <neinast at worldnet.att.net>:

> Craig Berry wrote:
>>> Yes, that it what they had. They also had other
>>> abominations like
>>>
>>>  cuauhtin (kwah-oo-teen).
>>
>> How would you render that properly into informal phonetics?
>
> I'd go with kwow-teen.

That's very nice for informal phonetics. Better than the Field 
Museum's. Again, an acute accent mark over the first syllable would be 
nicer.


Michael


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From neinast at att.net  Wed Dec 31 06:59:29 2008
From: neinast at att.net (Robert A. Neinast)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:59:29 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re:  Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <20081230232751.k437nistgggooogc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.015929.0500.NEINAST@ATT.NET>

Michael McCafferty wrote:
>>> Oh, and for a final
>>> "tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".
> 
> It's like that in some dialects, so it's not a great offense.

Don't forget, this exhibit was "The Aztec World," not
"The Modern Nahuatl Dialects World."

Or were there dialects 500 years ago that did this?

Bob
-- 
" . . . and shun the Frumious Bandersnatch."
Robert A. Neinast
Pickerington, OH
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 31 15:49:06 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:49:06 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re:  Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <495B1851.5020401@att.net>
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.104906.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting "Robert A. Neinast" <neinast at att.net>:

> Michael McCafferty wrote:
>>>> Oh, and for a final
>>>> "tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".
>>
>> It's like that in some dialects, so it's not a great offense.
>
> Don't forget, this exhibit was "The Aztec World," not
> "The Modern Nahuatl Dialects World."

Naturally, an exhibit of this caliber should have -tl instead of -t. 
That's agreed.

>
> Or were there dialects 500 years ago that did this?

Yes. In fact, the sound written -tl derives from a proto-Uto-Aztecan 
/*t/ following /a/. It's not unreasonable to assume that some ancient 
dialects did not take that /*t/ to the sound written -tl. I don't 
believe the necessary evidence exists to corroborate that notion, 
however.

Michael

>
> Bob
> --
> " . . . and shun the Frumious Bandersnatch."
> Robert A. Neinast
> Pickerington, OH
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Wed Dec 31 22:31:57 2008
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:31:57 +0000
Subject: Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <8dee73060812301349w52bdff79y4f8bec0510ca843f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.223157.0000.>

Likely the big temptation is to pronounce final -tl with the L as a vowel as in "battle". Likely most amphibianologists' pronunciation of "axolotl" is far from the mark. (I once saw a poem in English rhyming "Popocatepetl" with "kettle",)

I once advised: to say "teuctli", start with "tecuatli" and then gradually lose the "a" without letting any other sounds change.

(I had a similar problem during a scuba diving holiday in the Red Sea, teaching some English-speakers to say the Arabic word 'afwan = "thanks accepted" that starts with a glottal stop and then a stressed vowel.)

Citlalyani

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From ixtlil at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 31 17:06:44 2008
From: ixtlil at earthlink.net (Jerry Offner)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:06:44 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Re:  Chicago's Field Museum
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.110644.0600.>

If we brush aside, for the moment, the legions of linguistic angels by now
arrayed and thoroughly crowded on the head of a pin, and the more
interesting lingustic questions of museology and making non-Western 
languages somewhat accessible and hopefully even interesting and engaging
to museum visitors, what is the substance of the exhibit like?  

Some images can be seen at:

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/aztecs/

but are there new or very rarely seen objects?  Is any of the commentary
the least bit inaccurate or otherwise controversial?  How is it on the
Apocalypto scale--responsible and broad spectrum or sensationalist and
leering?  Certainly, the website's tone is promising.  Have they eschewed
the seemingly inevitable atmospheric flute music in favor of another theme
or approach?  

Having mounted a few exhibits myself, they are a very difficult balancing
act between sponsors, museums, museum directors, trustees and curators,
availability of material, outside marketing consultants, outside academic
consultants, exhibition preparation and design staff (often the most
inspiring, creative and unsung group), etc. etc. (It sounds difficult, but
it is great if exhausting and humbling fun). It would be a shame if all
this (admittedly lingustically-oriented) list has to offer about this
exhibit are some obscure, conflicting and ranking comments on pronunciation
guides for the English/Spanish (and other language) non-academic visitors
to the exhibit.  I don't recall seeing anything on the aztlan list about
the exhibit other than the announcement of its existence. 

And backed to those crowded angels--how exactly would one have written a
pronunciation guide that would engage the public? Are there prior examples
of excellence?  What about next time?  And what about this time?  Do the
comments offered so far encourage non-specialists to use specialists next
time or do they just further isolate all parties?

Show us.

Jerry Offner 


> [Original Message]
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: 12/31/2008 09:49:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fwd: Re:  Chicago's Field Museum
>
> Quoting "Robert A. Neinast" <neinast at att.net>:
>
> > Michael McCafferty wrote:
> >>>> Oh, and for a final
> >>>> "tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".
> >>
> >> It's like that in some dialects, so it's not a great offense.
> >
> > Don't forget, this exhibit was "The Aztec World," not
> > "The Modern Nahuatl Dialects World."
>
> Naturally, an exhibit of this caliber should have -tl instead of -t. 
> That's agreed.
>
> >
> > Or were there dialects 500 years ago that did this?
>
> Yes. In fact, the sound written -tl derives from a proto-Uto-Aztecan 
> /*t/ following /a/. It's not unreasonable to assume that some ancient 
> dialects did not take that /*t/ to the sound written -tl. I don't 
> believe the necessary evidence exists to corroborate that notion, 
> however.
>
> Michael
>
> >
> > Bob
> > --
> > " . . . and shun the Frumious Bandersnatch."
> > Robert A. Neinast
> > Pickerington, OH
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Wed Dec  3 22:04:22 2008
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:04:22 -0500
Subject: Nawat/Pipil Bible translation website
Message-ID: <WED.3.DEC.2008.170422.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

From:   "Alan King" <alanrking at yahoo.com>
Date:   Wed, December 3, 2008

The Ne Bibliaj Tik Nawat website was launched last week. Nawat (aka
"Pipil") is a branch of the Nahuan family (partly mutually intelligible
with Nahuatl) and an endangered language spoken by the Pipils of El
Salvador. This is a trilingual site in Spanish, English and Nawat with
information about the Nawat Bible translation project, the language and
related issues of interest. The URL is:

  http://nebibliaj.org

  Alan


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From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 07:07:48 2008
From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:07:48 -0800
Subject: Codex Borbonicus
Message-ID: <WED.3.DEC.2008.230748.0800.>





Estimados listeros,

?

Help!? I?m stuck in
the boondocks of Bulgaria
and have had a devil of a time getting copies of either H.B. Nicholson?s 

?

1966 ?The Problem of the Provenience of Codex Borbonicus of
the Members of the ?Codex Borbonicus Group?: A Summary.? In Summa antropolgica en homenaje a Roberto
J. Weitlaner: 145-158.? Instituto
Nacional de Antropologia e Historia. Mexico.

?

or 

?

The Provenience of the Codex Borbonicus: A Hypothesis, in Smoke
and Mist: Mesoamerican Studies in Memory of Thelma D. Sullivan, Josser and
and Karen Dakin (eds.), i, pp. 77

?

or 

?




 
  
  N. C Christopher Couch?s The Festival Cycle of the Aztec
  Codex Borbonicus.
  ?
  Before I expend
  more resources here in trying for hard-to-come-by library loans, could
  someone, in a word, tell me where these scholars have hypothesized the Codex?s
  provenience to be?
  ?
  Mil gracias,
  ?
  Tom Grigsby
  ?
  ?
  ?
  
 






G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 

Boboshevo, 2026 Bulgaria

GSM: 359 0899 784 081


      
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From dfrye at umich.edu  Thu Dec  4 16:53:02 2008
From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:53:02 -0500
Subject: Codex Borbonicus
In-Reply-To: <329624.96199.qm@web110010.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.4.DEC.2008.115302.0500.DFRYE@UMICH.EDU>

I don't have the sources you are looking for at hand, but in an article by Maarten Jansen and Gabina Aurora P?rez Jim?nez, "Renaming the Mexican Codices" (Ancient Mesoamerica, 15 (2004), 267-271), online at http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?fileI find this:


"The Codex Borbonicus, named for the Palais Bourbon in Paris, where it
was kept, is a Mexica manuscript clearly related to this group. In its
series of year feasts it gives prominence to the role of the high-priest and
to the Dark Temple (Tlillan) of his Divine Patron, the Goddess Cihuacoatl.
19 In the sixteenth century it was sent to the king of Spain and it is
mentioned in the list of "Libros de diversas facultades de la testamentaria
de Felipe II" (1600) as a "libro en folio mayor, de los caciques de
M?xico y de los d?as que sacrificaban en la semana." Analyzing the
glosses, we conclude that the document comes from the area of Xochimilco,
but to underline its religious character, we prefer to call it Codex
Cihuacoatl."

[BTW, I don't believe that their call to rename all the codices in a rational way, sensible as it may be, has been taken up by other scholars.]

-David

------------


From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of grigsby tom
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:08 AM
To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Nahuat-l] Codex Borbonicus

Estimados listeros,
?
Help!? Im stuck in the boondocks of Bulgaria and have had a devil of a time getting copies of either H.B. Nicholsons 
?
1966 The Problem of the Provenience of Codex Borbonicus of the Members of the Codex Borbonicus Group: A Summary.? In Summa antropolgica en homenaje a Roberto J. Weitlaner: 145-158.? Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia. Mexico.
?
or 
?
The Provenience of the Codex Borbonicus: A Hypothesis, in Smoke and Mist: Mesoamerican Studies in Memory of Thelma D. Sullivan, Josser and and Karen Dakin (eds.), i, pp. 77
?
or 
?
N. C Christopher Couchs The Festival Cycle of the Aztec Codex Borbonicus.
?
Before I expend more resources here in trying for hard-to-come-by library loans, could someone, in a word, tell me where these scholars have hypothesized the Codexs provenience to be?
?
Mil gracias,
?
Tom Grigsby
?
?
?


G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 
Boboshevo, 2026 Bulgaria
GSM: 359 0899 784 081


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From mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu  Mon Dec  8 23:33:18 2008
From: mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu (Molly Bassett)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:33:18 -0800
Subject: ineixcahuil question
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.153318.0800.MBASSETT@UMAIL.UCSB.EDU>

Hi, all.

I'm working through several passages in Sahag?n's General History that  
contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the term  
"his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special  
attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they  
determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final - 
l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the  
word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ 
surface?"  [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  
e alguno" (66r).]

ineixcahuil
i-  = possessive pronoun, 3rd person singular
-ne- = nonspecific reflexive object prefix
-ix(tli)- = "eye, face, surface"
-ca(hua)- = "to leave, abandon, relinquish sby/stg"
-hui- = singular possessive suffix
-l = ??

Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
Molly Bassett
______________
Molly Bassett
Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
University of California, Santa Barbara




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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Mon Dec  8 23:58:46 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:58:46 -0500
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <9DD6D0D5-E665-4301-80FC-6E31C9430274@umail.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.185846.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:

Dear Molly,

> Hi, all.
>
> I'm working through several passages in Sahag?n's General History
> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
> determined these translations.

This is a good point. In working through Dibble and Anderson with Joe 
Campbell and Pablo Garcia a couple years ago, we came across the 
occasional D & S translation that was truly mystifying. I believe Joe 
has made a collection of these.

In the term you have here, however, the boys are pretty much on the 
mark. Yours is a noun, neixcahuilli, which, when possessed by the third 
singular marker i-, drops the absolutive suffix -li. So, what you have 
on your hands is a possessed noun.

There is a reflexive verb moixcahuia that means 'to work in private, to 
mind your own business, or even 'to do one thing and not anything else'.

As you know, the reflexive nature of the verb requires the ne- prefix 
when a noun is derived from it.

I believe you're right that ix- is 'face' or perhaps 'eye(s)' in this 
case, and cahu- might come form 'cahua', but I don't know for sure 
about that. Somebody will likely pipe in and clear that up, I imagine.

Hope this helps some.

Michael McCafferty


  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
> alguno" (66r).]
>
> ineixcahuil
> i-  > -ne- > -ix(tli)- > -ca(hua)- > -hui- > -l >
> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
> Molly Bassett
> ______________
> Molly Bassett
> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
> University of California, Santa Barbara
>
>
>
>
>




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From cindy at grito-poetry.com  Tue Dec  9 05:00:15 2008
From: cindy at grito-poetry.com (Cindy Williams Gutierrez)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:00:15 -0800
Subject: "r" and "v"?
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.210015.0800.CINDY@GRITOPOETRY.COM>

Hello,

A friend of mine who is a folklorist and professor is publishing a book
about a curandera.  She quotes several Nahuatl poems in the book.  Her copy
editor wants her to identify all the sources of the poetry in detail.  She
doesn't know what the "r" and "v" that follow the folio number of the
codices indicate.  Can someone help?

Thank you, 
Cindy WG

cindy williams gutierrez
poet-dramatist/performer
GRITO poetry/productions
(503) 631-4113
cindy at grito-poetry.com 
www.grito-poetry.com


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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Tue Dec  9 05:07:37 2008
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:07:37 -0800
Subject: "r" and "v"?
In-Reply-To: <000501c959bb$07666fc0$6501a8c0@CINDYDELLPC>
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.210737.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Hi Cindy!  Nice to see you posting!.

It has to do with the side of the folio.  Verso and recto?  No, recto  
and verso... (front and back) sides of the pages.  Wiki has a light- 
hearted explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex


On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Cindy Williams Gutierrez wrote:

> Hello,
>
> A friend of mine who is a folklorist and professor is publishing a  
> book
> about a curandera.  She quotes several Nahuatl poems in the book.   
> Her copy
> editor wants her to identify all the sources of the poetry in  
> detail.  She
> doesn't know what the "r" and "v" that follow the folio number of the
> codices indicate.  Can someone help?
>
> Thank you,
> Cindy WG
>
> cindy williams gutierrez
> poet-dramatist/performer
> GRITO poetry/productions
> (503) 631-4113
> cindy at grito-poetry.com
> www.grito-poetry.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Tue Dec  9 06:08:11 2008
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 01:08:11 -0500
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <9DD6D0D5-E665-4301-80FC-6E31C9430274@umail.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.DEC.2008.010811.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Dear Molly,

   I wish I had Michael's memory, but it would be very unfair to him 
for us to trade.  I'll just add a comment and some examples.

   In the examples below, one can see in the finite verb forms that 
...ixcahuia... involves being concerned with something, concentrating 
on something, etc.

   ninixcahuia     entender solo en algun negocio

   I assume that -cahuia is the benefactive form (often referred to as 
the applicative) of cahua.

   The nominalization of mo-ix-cahui-(a) is ne-ix-cahui-l-li and your 
possessed form follows directly from that.  ... and the 'mo' is 
replaced by the non-specific reflexive 'ne'.

I put the examples below.

Iztayohmeh,

Joe

Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:

> Hi, all.
>
> I'm working through several passages in Sahag?n's General History
> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
> determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
> alguno" (66r).]
>
> ineixcahuil
> i-  > -ne- > -ix(tli)- > -ca(hua)- > -hui- > -l >
> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
> Molly Bassett
> ______________
> Molly Bassett
> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
> University of California, Santa Barbara
>
>
>
>
* i:xtli     ca:hua ***

ahtlaixcahua. she is careful.  [ah1-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
ahtleh quixcahua. he is envious of everything, he covets everything.
    [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
aixcahualoni. one who is not to be neglected.  [ah1-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:1-
    ni1] FC.
amechonmotlaixcahualtilia. he [H.] causes you [pl.] to lose.  [p42-o:n-
    p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-ben H1] FC.
anconixcahuia. you [pl.] deal with it exclusively, you [pl.] tend to it
    alone.  [p22-p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
cemixcahuia     cosa.  [p11-p33-cem-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-3.
conixcahua. they take their eyes off him.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
conm[o]ixcahualtia. he neglects it.  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
    FC.
connixcahuaya. they let him out of their sight.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-
    ya3] FC.

ineixcahuil. his personal privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
    FC.
ineixcahuil. his private thing.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
ineixcahuil. its characeristic.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.

ineixcahuilaxcatzin. his [H.] exclusive property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
    ca:hua-ben-l1-a:xca:itl-tzin] FC.
ineixcahuiltoca. its name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl] FC.
ineixcahuiltoca. its proper name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
    to:ca:itl] FC.
ineixcahuiltzin. his possession.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-tzin] FC.
inneixcahuil. .  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
inneixcahuil. their function.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
inneixcahuil. their personal charge.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
inneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
inneixcahuil. their sole property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
    FC.
ixcahua ?h niqu?h oniquixcauh. ser apretado o escasso.  [ah1-
    tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-2.
ixcahua ?h niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    55m-1.
ixcahua ?h niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    71m1-3.
ixcahua ?h niqu. escasso ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
    +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-10.
ixcahua ?h niqu. mezquino ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
    +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-15.
ixcahua ?h qu. cobdicioso de dinero.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    71m1-5.
ixcahua ?h qu. codicioso o escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    71m2-2.
ixcahua ?h qu. escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-10.
ixcahua ?h qu. guardador escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    71m1-12.
ixcahua ?h qu. mezquino.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-15.
ixcahua ?h qu. miserable escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
    71m1-15.
ixcahua     negligencia.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
ixcahua     ca:hua] 55m-6.
ixcahua     ca:hua] 71m1-8.
ixcahua ahtleh     [p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua ah1-tleh] 71m2-8.
ixcahualiztli ?h qu. auaricia.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-liz]
    55m-1.
ixcahualiztli ?h qu. auaricia, o escaseza.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-
    ca:hua-liz] 71m1-3.
ixcahualtia     negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
ixcahualtia     defraudado  de algo por mi culpa y negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
    ca:hua-caus01] 71m1-17.
ixcahualtia     descuido y negligencia.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
    +mis_analysis.] 71m2-21.
ixcahualtia     +mis_analysis.4] 55m-5.
ixcahualtia     71m1-7.
ixcahualtia     de alguno.  [p11-p52-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
ixcahualtiliztli     caus01-liz] 55m-5.
ixcahualtiliztli     i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-liz] 71m2-12.
ixcahualtiliztli     caus01-liz] 71m1-7.
ixcahuani ?h qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 55m-1.
ixcahuani ?h qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 71m1-3.
ixcahuia     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-10.
ixcahuia ixcahuia     de alguna cosa, sin partirla con otros.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
    ben] 71m2-8.
ixcahuia     ca:hua-ben] 55m-8.
ixcahuia     ca:hua-ben] 71m1-10.
ixcahuia     que me toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
ixcahuia     ben] 55m-8.
ixcahuia     ben +mis_analysis.2] 71m1-10.
ixcahuia     12.
ixcahuia     ben] 71m1-13.
ixcahuia     ben] 71m2-8.
ixcahuia     p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
ixcahuia ixcahuia ixcahuia     ben] 55m-8.
ixcahuia     ben] 71m1-10.
ixcahuia in inacayo     in poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 55m-3.
ixcahuia in inacayo     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m1-4.
ixcahuia inacayo     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m2-15.
ixcahuiani ixcahuihqui     absorto enel.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 71m2-21.
ixcahuihqui ixcahuil     alguno.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m2-12.
ixcahuil     ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m1-16.
ixcahuil     ca:hua-ben-l1] 55m-14.
ixcahuil in totecuiyo     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1 in poss-te:uctli-yo:tl1] 71m2-7.
ixcahuilchicahualiz     persona.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-12.
ixcahuilchicahualiz     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-25.
ixcahuillahtlacolli     i:xtli-ca:hua-l1-p51-ihtlacahui-l1 +l.for.tl +ltl>ll] 71m2-11.
ixcahuilo. people are concerned, there is attention to.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
    ben-lo:2] FC.
ixcauhticatca. .  [i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-ti1-ca:1a-ca10] FC.
ixcuamacahua     el mecapalli.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-cua:itl-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
ixmacahua     p52-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
ixmacahua     tameme.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, it is their doing.
    [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, they pay heed.
    [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved, they are concerned.  [p54-i:xtli-
    ca:hua-ben] FC.
m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
m[o]ixcahuiaya. they concerned themselves solely.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
    ben-ya3] FC.
m[o]ixcahuiaya. they were solely concerned, they were solely involved.
    [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
m[o]ixcahuicoh. they came concerning themselves (with this).  [p54-
    i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-dir1b] FC.
m[o]ixcahuitica. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
m[o]ixcahuitica. he is dedicated to it.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-
    ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
m[o]ixcahuitoqueh. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-o-plur01] FC.
m[o]ixcahuiz. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
m[o]ixcahuiz. it will be used alone.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
moneixcahuiltzin. your own affair.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
    tzin] FC.
moteixcahuiani. .  [p54-p52-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] FC.
neixcahuilo. there is doing of only one thing.  [p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
    lo:2] FC.
nicn[o]ixcahui. .  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-opt] FC.
onixcahualo. there is carelessness.  [o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:2] FC.
oquixcauhqueh. they forgot him.  [o:-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-plur01]
    FC.
quim[o]ixcahualtia. .  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] FC.
quim[o]ixcahuiaya. .  [p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
quixcahua. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
quixcahua. he neglects him.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
quixcahuia. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuia. he is given to it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuia. he shows preference for it, he tends to it alone.  [p33-
    i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuia. she devotes herself to it; she tends to it alone.  [p33-
    i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuia. they are involved with it only; they tend to it alone.
    [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuia. they devote themselves to it; they tend to it alone.  [p33-
    i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
quixcahuiaya. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
quixcahuiaya. he attended to just one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
    ya3] FC.
quixcahuiaya. he concerned himself exclusively with it.  [p33-i:xtli-
    ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
quixcahuiaya. they did one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
quixcahuiaya. they specialized in it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
quixcahuihtica. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
tiquixcahuicoh. we came to greet only him.  [p21-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
    dir1b] FC.
tiquixcahuiz. you think only of it.  [p12-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
toneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.


>




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From oenthomas at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 15:03:51 2008
From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:03:51 -0600
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <20081209010811.0782dd7w2skcks08@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.DEC.2008.090351.0600.OENTHOMAS@GMAIL.COM>

Friends,
I have a developing friendship with speakers of Nahuatl from Guerrero.
They do not discuss grammar nor have interest in specific meaning.
Morphemes are not analyzed but they just try to convey meaning by body
language and spanish words. They can communicate with people from
Puebla and from the Huasteca even tho they use different words
sometimes.

The European fascination with grammar has not attracted them.

Joe has an excellent library of 'words' that incorporate the morphemes
and have accompanying spanish translations. His lists have often been
of help in attempting to unerstand the 'approximate translation' of
Nahuatl writings. Exact translation seens to be a hangup from European
linguistic habits but does not concern my native speakers. They always
try to help me undeerstand by Spanish approximate words.

Conversation with them is much easier that attempting to read exact
meaning from Nahuatl written stories or legends.

Owen Thomas




On 12/9/08, Campbell,  R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:
> Dear Molly,
>
>    I wish I had Michael's memory, but it would be very unfair to him
> for us to trade.  I'll just add a comment and some examples.
>
>    In the examples below, one can see in the finite verb forms that
> ...ixcahuia... involves being concerned with something, concentrating
> on something, etc.
>
>    ninixcahuia     entender solo en algun negocio
>
>    I assume that -cahuia is the benefactive form (often referred to as
> the applicative) of cahua.
>
>    The nominalization of mo-ix-cahui-(a) is ne-ix-cahui-l-li and your
> possessed form follows directly from that.  ... and the 'mo' is
> replaced by the non-specific reflexive 'ne'.
>
> I put the examples below.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe
>
> Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:
>
>> Hi, all.
>>
>> I'm working through several passages in Sahag?n's General History
>> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
>> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
>> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
>> determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
>> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
>> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
>> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
>> alguno" (66r).]
>>
>> ineixcahuil
>> i-   possessive pronoun, 3rd person singular
>> -ne-  nonspecific reflexive object prefix
>> -ix(tli)-  "eye, face, surface"
>> -ca(hua)-  "to leave, abandon, relinquish sby/stg"
>> -hui-  singular possessive suffix
>> -l  ??
>>
>> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
>> Molly Bassett
>> ______________
>> Molly Bassett
>> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
>> University of California, Santa Barbara
>>
>>
>>
>>
> * i:xtli     ca:hua ***
>
> ahtlaixcahua. she is careful.  [ah1-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
> ahtleh quixcahua. he is envious of everything, he covets everything.
>     [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
> aixcahualoni. one who is not to be neglected.  [ah1-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:1-
>     ni1] FC.
> amechonmotlaixcahualtilia. he [H.] causes you [pl.] to lose.  [p42-o:n-
>     p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-ben H1] FC.
> anconixcahuia. you [pl.] deal with it exclusively, you [pl.] tend to it
>     alone.  [p22-p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> cemixcahuia niconiccemixcahui. estar ocupado y entender en sola vna
>     cosa.  [p11-p33-cem-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-3.
> conixcahua. they take their eyes off him.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
> conm[o]ixcahualtia. he neglects it.  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>     FC.
> connixcahuaya. they let him out of their sight.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ya3] FC.
>
> ineixcahuil. his personal privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>     FC.
> ineixcahuil. his private thing.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
> ineixcahuil. its characeristic.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>
> ineixcahuilaxcatzin. his [H.] exclusive property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben-l1-a:xca:itl-tzin] FC.
> ineixcahuiltoca. its name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl] FC.
> ineixcahuiltoca. its proper name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>     to:ca:itl] FC.
> ineixcahuiltzin. his possession.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-tzin] FC.
> inneixcahuil. .  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
> inneixcahuil. their function.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
> inneixcahuil. their personal charge.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
> inneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
> inneixcahuil. their sole property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>     FC.
> ixcahua ahtleh niquatleh oniquixcauh. ser apretado o escasso.  [ah1-
>     tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-2.
> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     55m-1.
> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     71m1-3.
> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. escasso ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-10.
> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. mezquino ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-15.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. cobdicioso de dinero.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     71m1-5.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. codicioso o escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     71m2-2.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-10.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. guardador escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     71m1-12.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. mezquino.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-15.
> ixcahua ahtleh qu. miserable escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>     71m1-15.
> ixcahua nitlaoniquixcauh. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo y
>     negligencia.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua] 55m-6.
> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuido.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua] 71m1-8.
> ixcahua ahtleh niquahtleh oniquixcauh. ser codicioso de quanto ay.
>     [p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua ah1-tleh] 71m2-8.
> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-liz]
>     55m-1.
> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia, o escaseza.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-liz] 71m1-3.
> ixcahualtia nicnonicnixcahualti. perder algo por su culpa y
>     negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
> ixcahualtia nicn. priuarme yo mismo de alguna cosa o perder y quedar
>     defraudado  de algo por mi culpa y negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-caus01] 71m1-17.
> ixcahualtia ninotlaoninotlaixcahualti. perder alguna cosa porsu
>     descuido y negligencia.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>     +mis_analysis.] 71m2-21.
> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>     +mis_analysis.4] 55m-5.
> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>     71m1-7.
> ixcahualtia nitetlaonitetlaixcahualti. impedir algun bien o prouecho
>     de alguno.  [p11-p52-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     caus01-liz] 55m-5.
> ixcahualtiliztli netla. culpa de negligencia y omission.  [p53-p51-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-liz] 71m2-12.
> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento assi.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     caus01-liz] 71m1-7.
> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 55m-1.
> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 71m1-3.
> ixcahuia mo. cosa sola, o el que asus solas haze alguna cosa.  [p54-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-10.
> ixcahuia mo. sola cosa.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-19.
> ixcahuia nicnonicnixcahui. comermelo yo todo o aprovecharse el solo
>     de alguna cosa, sin partirla con otros.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 71m2-8.
> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben] 55m-8.
> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben] 71m1-10.
> ixcahuia ninoninixcahui. hazer algo asolas, o entender solamente enlo
>     que me toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 55m-8.
> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben +mis_analysis.2] 71m1-10.
> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo a solas.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-
>     12.
> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo por si solo aparte.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 71m1-13.
> ixcahuia niquoniquixcahui. no tener mas de vna cosa.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 71m2-8.
> ixcahuia nitlaonitlaixcahui. entender en sola vna sola cosa.  [p11-
>     p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 55m-7.
> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse en algo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-9.
> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 55m-8.
> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben] 71m1-10.
> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal hombre vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>     in poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 55m-3.
> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal y vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben in
>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m1-4.
> ixcahuia inacayo qu. persona viciosa y carnal.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m2-15.
> ixcahuiani mo. hazedor assi.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] 71m1-12.
> ixcahuihqui tla. atento o suspenso en algun negocio, estando todo
>     absorto enel.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 71m2-21.
> ixcahuihqui tla. embeuecido.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 55m-7.
> ixcahuil none. cosa que compete, o pertenece ami solo, y no a otro
>     alguno.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m2-12.
> ixcahuil none. oficio proprio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m1-16.
> ixcahuil none. oficio propio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 55m-14.
> ixcahuil in totecuiyo ine. es proprio y pertenece a solo dios.  [poss-
>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1 in poss-te:uctli-yo:tl1] 71m2-7.
> ixcahuilchicahualiz none. esfuerzo, ovirtud de mi propria y sola
>     persona.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-12.
> ixcahuilchicahualiz tone. nuestro proprio esfuerzo o virtud.  [poss-
>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-25.
> ixcahuillahtlacolli ne. culpa especial y propria de alguno.  [p53-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-l1-p51-ihtlacahui-l1 +l.for.tl +ltl>ll] 71m2-11.
> ixcahuilo. people are concerned, there is attention to.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben-lo:2] FC.
> ixcauhticatca. .  [i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-ti1-ca:1a-ca10] FC.
> ixcuamacahua nitla. dar con la carga en tierra, por se auer soltado
>     el mecapalli.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-cua:itl-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
> ixmacahua niteoniteixmacauh. dexar caer al que lleua acuestas.  [p11-
>     p52-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
> ixmacahua nitlaonitlaixmacauh. soltarsele el mecapal dela frente al
>     tameme.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, it is their doing.
>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, they pay heed.
>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved, they are concerned.  [p54-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they concerned themselves solely.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>     ben-ya3] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they were solely concerned, they were solely involved.
>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuicoh. they came concerning themselves (with this).  [p54-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-dir1b] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuitica. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuitica. he is dedicated to it.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-
>     ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuitoqueh. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-o-plur01] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuiz. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
> m[o]ixcahuiz. it will be used alone.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
> moneixcahuiltzin. your own affair.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>     tzin] FC.
> moteixcahuiani. .  [p54-p52-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] FC.
> neixcahuilo. there is doing of only one thing.  [p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>     lo:2] FC.
> nicn[o]ixcahui. .  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-opt] FC.
> onixcahualo. there is carelessness.  [o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:2] FC.
> oquixcauhqueh. they forgot him.  [o:-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-plur01]
>     FC.
> quim[o]ixcahualtia. .  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] FC.
> quim[o]ixcahuiaya. .  [p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> quixcahua. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
> quixcahua. he neglects him.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
> quixcahuia. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuia. he is given to it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuia. he shows preference for it, he tends to it alone.  [p33-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuia. she devotes herself to it; she tends to it alone.  [p33-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuia. they are involved with it only; they tend to it alone.
>     [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuia. they devote themselves to it; they tend to it alone.  [p33-
>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
> quixcahuiaya. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> quixcahuiaya. he attended to just one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>     ya3] FC.
> quixcahuiaya. he concerned himself exclusively with it.  [p33-i:xtli-
>     ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> quixcahuiaya. they did one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> quixcahuiaya. they specialized in it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
> quixcahuihtica. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
> tiquixcahuicoh. we came to greet only him.  [p21-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>     dir1b] FC.
> tiquixcahuiz. you think only of it.  [p12-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
> toneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>


-- 
We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
Owen

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 10 20:54:22 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:54:22 -0500
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0812090703y772ce157g39ea937c0228a2b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.DEC.2008.155422.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:

> Friends
> I have a developing friendship with speakers of Nahuatl from Guerrero.
> They do not discuss grammar nor have interest in specific meaning.
> Morphemes are not analyzed but they just try to convey meaning by body
> language and spanish words. They can communicate with people from
> Puebla and from the Huasteca even tho they use different words
> sometimes.

Nocniuh,

I'm relatively confident that this will not be the last and most 
erudite reply to your email.

But it's important to remember that *most* speakers of *every* language 
in the world are not interested in conceptualizing the grammar or their 
language. Language is for the most part an unconscious activity, and 
most speakers don't have the faintest notion of grammar...or morphology.

To say that the Nahuatl speakers around you have no "interest in 
specific meaning" simply shows that you have some things to learn about 
Nahuatl, Nahuatl speakers, and linguistics in general. That's all there 
is to that notion.



>
> The European fascination with grammar has not attracted them.

The fascination with grammar probably attracts fewer than one percent 
of the people on the planet. However, I do know of a Nahuatl speaker or 
two who are very interested in grammar, and quite good at it.

>
> Joe has an excellent library of 'words' that incorporate the morphemes
> and have accompanying spanish translations. His lists have often been
> of help in attempting to unerstand the 'approximate translation' of
> Nahuatl writings. Exact translation seens to be a hangup from European
> linguistic habits but does not concern my native speakers. They always
> try to help me undeerstand by Spanish approximate words.

Joe's "lists of words" will be, in truth, a cornerstone of the 
scholarship of the language for centuries to come, provided we don't 
blow ourselves up first. Their value is incalculable, and will become 
even more so with future Nahuatl language revitalization efforts in 
Mexico.

In passing, I can only assume that your "approximate translation" 
refers to something you are working on in modern Nahuatl. Note that 
Joe's opus involves three 16th-century dictionaries of the language. 
Perhaps some of the confusion comes from how the language has changed 
in the last 500 years.


>
> Conversation with them is much easier that attempting to read exact
> meaning from Nahuatl written stories or legends.

That may be true in your case. Each person is different. For example, I 
find my English-as-a-second-language Arabic speakers are fantastic when 
it comes to listening and speaking English, but are not good readers.

Michael McCafferty

>
> Owen Thomas
>
>
>
>
> On 12/9/08, Campbell,  R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:
>> Dear Molly,
>>
>>    I wish I had Michael's memory, but it would be very unfair to him
>> for us to trade.  I'll just add a comment and some examples.
>>
>>    In the examples below, one can see in the finite verb forms that
>> ...ixcahuia... involves being concerned with something, concentrating
>> on something, etc.
>>
>>    ninixcahuia     entender solo en algun negocio
>>
>>    I assume that -cahuia is the benefactive form (often referred to as
>> the applicative) of cahua.
>>
>>    The nominalization of mo-ix-cahui-(a) is ne-ix-cahui-l-li and your
>> possessed form follows directly from that.  ... and the 'mo' is
>> replaced by the non-specific reflexive 'ne'.
>>
>> I put the examples below.
>>
>> Iztayohmeh,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:
>>
>>> Hi, all.
>>>
>>> I'm working through several passages in Sahag?n's General History
>>> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
>>> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
>>> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
>>> determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
>>> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
>>> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
>>> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
>>> alguno" (66r).]
>>>
>>> ineixcahuil
>>> i-   possessive pronoun, 3rd person singular
>>> -ne-  nonspecific reflexive object prefix
>>> -ix(tli)-  "eye, face, surface"
>>> -ca(hua)-  "to leave, abandon, relinquish sby/stg"
>>> -hui-  singular possessive suffix
>>> -l  ??
>>>
>>> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
>>> Molly Bassett
>>> ______________
>>> Molly Bassett
>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
>>> University of California, Santa Barbara
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> * i:xtli     ca:hua ***
>>
>> ahtlaixcahua. she is careful.  [ah1-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>> ahtleh quixcahua. he is envious of everything, he covets everything.
>>     [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>> aixcahualoni. one who is not to be neglected.  [ah1-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:1-
>>     ni1] FC.
>> amechonmotlaixcahualtilia. he [H.] causes you [pl.] to lose.  [p42-o:n-
>>     p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-ben H1] FC.
>> anconixcahuia. you [pl.] deal with it exclusively, you [pl.] tend to it
>>     alone.  [p22-p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> cemixcahuia niconiccemixcahui. estar ocupado y entender en sola vna
>>     cosa.  [p11-p33-cem-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-3.
>> conixcahua. they take their eyes off him.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>> conm[o]ixcahualtia. he neglects it.  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>     FC.
>> connixcahuaya. they let him out of their sight.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ya3] FC.
>>
>> ineixcahuil. his personal privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>     FC.
>> ineixcahuil. his private thing.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>> ineixcahuil. its characeristic.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>
>> ineixcahuilaxcatzin. his [H.] exclusive property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben-l1-a:xca:itl-tzin] FC.
>> ineixcahuiltoca. its name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl] FC.
>> ineixcahuiltoca. its proper name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>     to:ca:itl] FC.
>> ineixcahuiltzin. his possession.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-tzin] FC.
>> inneixcahuil. .  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>> inneixcahuil. their function.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>> inneixcahuil. their personal charge.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>> inneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>> inneixcahuil. their sole property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>     FC.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niquatleh oniquixcauh. ser apretado o escasso.  [ah1-
>>     tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-2.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     55m-1.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     71m1-3.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. escasso ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-10.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. mezquino ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-15.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. cobdicioso de dinero.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     71m1-5.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. codicioso o escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     71m2-2.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-10.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. guardador escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     71m1-12.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. mezquino.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-15.
>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. miserable escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>     71m1-15.
>> ixcahua nitlaoniquixcauh. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo y
>>     negligencia.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua] 55m-6.
>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuido.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua] 71m1-8.
>> ixcahua ahtleh niquahtleh oniquixcauh. ser codicioso de quanto ay.
>>     [p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua ah1-tleh] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-liz]
>>     55m-1.
>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia, o escaseza.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-liz] 71m1-3.
>> ixcahualtia nicnonicnixcahualti. perder algo por su culpa y
>>     negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahualtia nicn. priuarme yo mismo de alguna cosa o perder y quedar
>>     defraudado  de algo por mi culpa y negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-caus01] 71m1-17.
>> ixcahualtia ninotlaoninotlaixcahualti. perder alguna cosa porsu
>>     descuido y negligencia.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>     +mis_analysis.] 71m2-21.
>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>     +mis_analysis.4] 55m-5.
>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>     71m1-7.
>> ixcahualtia nitetlaonitetlaixcahualti. impedir algun bien o prouecho
>>     de alguno.  [p11-p52-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     caus01-liz] 55m-5.
>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. culpa de negligencia y omission.  [p53-p51-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-liz] 71m2-12.
>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento assi.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     caus01-liz] 71m1-7.
>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 55m-1.
>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 71m1-3.
>> ixcahuia mo. cosa sola, o el que asus solas haze alguna cosa.  [p54-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-10.
>> ixcahuia mo. sola cosa.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-19.
>> ixcahuia nicnonicnixcahui. comermelo yo todo o aprovecharse el solo
>>     de alguna cosa, sin partirla con otros.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben] 55m-8.
>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben] 71m1-10.
>> ixcahuia ninoninixcahui. hazer algo asolas, o entender solamente enlo
>>     que me toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 55m-8.
>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben +mis_analysis.2] 71m1-10.
>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo a solas.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-
>>     12.
>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo por si solo aparte.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 71m1-13.
>> ixcahuia niquoniquixcahui. no tener mas de vna cosa.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahuia nitlaonitlaixcahui. entender en sola vna sola cosa.  [p11-
>>     p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 55m-7.
>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse en algo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-9.
>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 55m-8.
>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben] 71m1-10.
>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal hombre vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>     in poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 55m-3.
>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal y vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben in
>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m1-4.
>> ixcahuia inacayo qu. persona viciosa y carnal.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m2-15.
>> ixcahuiani mo. hazedor assi.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] 71m1-12.
>> ixcahuihqui tla. atento o suspenso en algun negocio, estando todo
>>     absorto enel.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 71m2-21.
>> ixcahuihqui tla. embeuecido.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 55m-7.
>> ixcahuil none. cosa que compete, o pertenece ami solo, y no a otro
>>     alguno.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m2-12.
>> ixcahuil none. oficio proprio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m1-16.
>> ixcahuil none. oficio propio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 55m-14.
>> ixcahuil in totecuiyo ine. es proprio y pertenece a solo dios.  [poss-
>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1 in poss-te:uctli-yo:tl1] 71m2-7.
>> ixcahuilchicahualiz none. esfuerzo, ovirtud de mi propria y sola
>>     persona.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-12.
>> ixcahuilchicahualiz tone. nuestro proprio esfuerzo o virtud.  [poss-
>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-25.
>> ixcahuillahtlacolli ne. culpa especial y propria de alguno.  [p53-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-l1-p51-ihtlacahui-l1 +l.for.tl +ltl>ll] 71m2-11.
>> ixcahuilo. people are concerned, there is attention to.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben-lo:2] FC.
>> ixcauhticatca. .  [i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-ti1-ca:1a-ca10] FC.
>> ixcuamacahua nitla. dar con la carga en tierra, por se auer soltado
>>     el mecapalli.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-cua:itl-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>> ixmacahua niteoniteixmacauh. dexar caer al que lleua acuestas.  [p11-
>>     p52-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>> ixmacahua nitlaonitlaixmacauh. soltarsele el mecapal dela frente al
>>     tameme.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, it is their doing.
>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, they pay heed.
>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved, they are concerned.  [p54-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they concerned themselves solely.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>     ben-ya3] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they were solely concerned, they were solely involved.
>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuicoh. they came concerning themselves (with this).  [p54-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-dir1b] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuitica. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuitica. he is dedicated to it.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-
>>     ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuitoqueh. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-o-plur01] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuiz. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>> m[o]ixcahuiz. it will be used alone.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>> moneixcahuiltzin. your own affair.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>     tzin] FC.
>> moteixcahuiani. .  [p54-p52-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] FC.
>> neixcahuilo. there is doing of only one thing.  [p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>     lo:2] FC.
>> nicn[o]ixcahui. .  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-opt] FC.
>> onixcahualo. there is carelessness.  [o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:2] FC.
>> oquixcauhqueh. they forgot him.  [o:-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-plur01]
>>     FC.
>> quim[o]ixcahualtia. .  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] FC.
>> quim[o]ixcahuiaya. .  [p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> quixcahua. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>> quixcahua. he neglects him.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>> quixcahuia. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuia. he is given to it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuia. he shows preference for it, he tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuia. she devotes herself to it; she tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuia. they are involved with it only; they tend to it alone.
>>     [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuia. they devote themselves to it; they tend to it alone.  [p33-
>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>> quixcahuiaya. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> quixcahuiaya. he attended to just one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>     ya3] FC.
>> quixcahuiaya. he concerned himself exclusively with it.  [p33-i:xtli-
>>     ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> quixcahuiaya. they did one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> quixcahuiaya. they specialized in it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>> quixcahuihtica. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>> tiquixcahuicoh. we came to greet only him.  [p21-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>     dir1b] FC.
>> tiquixcahuiz. you think only of it.  [p12-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>> toneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
> --
> We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
> Owen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>




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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Dec 11 00:23:51 2008
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:23:51 -0600
Subject: Art�culos
Message-ID: <WED.10.DEC.2008.182351.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Estimados listeros:

 

Quiero compartir con ustedes un art?culo m?o que sali? la semana pasada:

 

?La sociedad prehisp?nica en las lenguas n?huatl y otom??, en Acta
Universitaria (Direcci?n de Investigaci?n y Posgrado, Universidad de
Guanajuato), vol. 18, no. especial 1, sep. 2008, pp. 15-23.

 

El art?culo completo, en formato PDF, as? como otros textos, se pueden bajar
sin costo ni suscripci?n (como debe ser) de esta p?gina web:

 

http://www.dinpo.ugto.mx/acta/publicaciones/v18-esp/actav18-esp.htm

 

Hace un a?o sali? otro art?culo en la misma revista que podr?a ser
interesante para los nahuatlatos de esta lista:

 

?La pol?tica ling??stica en la Nueva Espa?a?, en Acta Universitaria
(Direcci?n de Investigaci?n y Posgrado, Universidad de Guanajuato), vol. 17,
no. 3, sep.-dic. 2007, pp. 5-19.

 

http://www.dinpo.ugto.mx/acta/publicaciones/v17-3/actav17n3.htm

 

Saludos y felices vacaciones de invierno,

 

David Wright

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From oenthomas at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 22:09:17 2008
From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:09:17 -0600
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <20081210155422.lpj797b468k4c44k@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.DEC.2008.160917.0600.OENTHOMAS@GMAIL.COM>

Michael,
My offhand comment about approximate meaning reveals one of my major
hangups; I am distressed when people in discussions often arrive at an
impasse when one cannot accept the specific meaning intended by an
opponent who wants to argue. I prefer to use allternative words and
even extensive sentences in conversation in order to clarify my
meanings.

I have verry limited ability and understand very few expressions in
Nahuatl so my discussions are always approximate due to these peronal
limitqations. I am convinced that very sophisticated thoughts can be
expressed in Nahuatl by those who are masters of Nahuatl grammar when
speaking to others who also are masters of grammar.

Thank you for pointing to my limited ability in linguistics.

Owen Thomas



On 12/10/08, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:
>
>> Friends
>> I have a developing friendship with speakers of Nahuatl from Guerrero.
>> They do not discuss grammar nor have interest in specific meaning.
>> Morphemes are not analyzed but they just try to convey meaning by body
>> language and spanish words. They can communicate with people from
>> Puebla and from the Huasteca even tho they use different words
>> sometimes.
>
> Nocniuh,
>
> I'm relatively confident that this will not be the last and most
> erudite reply to your email.
>
> But it's important to remember that *most* speakers of *every* language
> in the world are not interested in conceptualizing the grammar or their
> language. Language is for the most part an unconscious activity, and
> most speakers don't have the faintest notion of grammar...or morphology.
>
> To say that the Nahuatl speakers around you have no "interest in
> specific meaning" simply shows that you have some things to learn about
> Nahuatl, Nahuatl speakers, and linguistics in general. That's all there
> is to that notion.
>
>
>
>>
>> The European fascination with grammar has not attracted them.
>
> The fascination with grammar probably attracts fewer than one percent
> of the people on the planet. However, I do know of a Nahuatl speaker or
> two who are very interested in grammar, and quite good at it.
>
>>
>> Joe has an excellent library of 'words' that incorporate the morphemes
>> and have accompanying spanish translations. His lists have often been
>> of help in attempting to unerstand the 'approximate translation' of
>> Nahuatl writings. Exact translation seens to be a hangup from European
>> linguistic habits but does not concern my native speakers. They always
>> try to help me undeerstand by Spanish approximate words.
>
> Joe's "lists of words" will be, in truth, a cornerstone of the
> scholarship of the language for centuries to come, provided we don't
> blow ourselves up first. Their value is incalculable, and will become
> even more so with future Nahuatl language revitalization efforts in
> Mexico.
>
> In passing, I can only assume that your "approximate translation"
> refers to something you are working on in modern Nahuatl. Note that
> Joe's opus involves three 16th-century dictionaries of the language.
> Perhaps some of the confusion comes from how the language has changed
> in the last 500 years.
>
>
>>
>> Conversation with them is much easier that attempting to read exact
>> meaning from Nahuatl written stories or legends.
>
> That may be true in your case. Each person is different. For example, I
> find my English-as-a-second-language Arabic speakers are fantastic when
> it comes to listening and speaking English, but are not good readers.
>
> Michael McCafferty
>
>>
>> Owen Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/9/08, Campbell,  R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>> Dear Molly,
>>>
>>>    I wish I had Michael's memory, but it would be very unfair to him
>>> for us to trade.  I'll just add a comment and some examples.
>>>
>>>    In the examples below, one can see in the finite verb forms that
>>> ...ixcahuia... involves being concerned with something, concentrating
>>> on something, etc.
>>>
>>>    ninixcahuia     entender solo en algun negocio
>>>
>>>    I assume that -cahuia is the benefactive form (often referred to as
>>> the applicative) of cahua.
>>>
>>>    The nominalization of mo-ix-cahui-(a) is ne-ix-cahui-l-li and your
>>> possessed form follows directly from that.  ... and the 'mo' is
>>> replaced by the non-specific reflexive 'ne'.
>>>
>>> I put the examples below.
>>>
>>> Iztayohmeh,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:
>>>
>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>
>>>> I'm working through several passages in Sahag?n's General History
>>>> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
>>>> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
>>>> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
>>>> determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
>>>> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
>>>> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
>>>> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
>>>> alguno" (66r).]
>>>>
>>>> ineixcahuil
>>>> i-   possessive pronoun, 3rd person singular
>>>> -ne-  nonspecific reflexive object prefix
>>>> -ix(tli)-  "eye, face, surface"
>>>> -ca(hua)-  "to leave, abandon, relinquish sby/stg"
>>>> -hui-  singular possessive suffix
>>>> -l  ??
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
>>>> Molly Bassett
>>>> ______________
>>>> Molly Bassett
>>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
>>>> University of California, Santa Barbara
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> * i:xtli     ca:hua ***
>>>
>>> ahtlaixcahua. she is careful.  [ah1-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>> ahtleh quixcahua. he is envious of everything, he covets everything.
>>>     [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>> aixcahualoni. one who is not to be neglected.  [ah1-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:1-
>>>     ni1] FC.
>>> amechonmotlaixcahualtilia. he [H.] causes you [pl.] to lose.  [p42-o:n-
>>>     p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-ben H1] FC.
>>> anconixcahuia. you [pl.] deal with it exclusively, you [pl.] tend to it
>>>     alone.  [p22-p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> cemixcahuia niconiccemixcahui. estar ocupado y entender en sola vna
>>>     cosa.  [p11-p33-cem-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-3.
>>> conixcahua. they take their eyes off him.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>> conm[o]ixcahualtia. he neglects it.  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>>     FC.
>>> connixcahuaya. they let him out of their sight.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ya3] FC.
>>>
>>> ineixcahuil. his personal privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>>     FC.
>>> ineixcahuil. his private thing.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>> ineixcahuil. its characeristic.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>
>>> ineixcahuilaxcatzin. his [H.] exclusive property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1-a:xca:itl-tzin] FC.
>>> ineixcahuiltoca. its name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl] FC.
>>> ineixcahuiltoca. its proper name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>>     to:ca:itl] FC.
>>> ineixcahuiltzin. his possession.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-tzin]
>>> FC.
>>> inneixcahuil. .  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>> inneixcahuil. their function.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>> inneixcahuil. their personal charge.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>> inneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>> inneixcahuil. their sole property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>>     FC.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niquatleh oniquixcauh. ser apretado o escasso.  [ah1-
>>>     tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-2.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     55m-1.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     71m1-3.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. escasso ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-10.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. mezquino ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-15.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. cobdicioso de dinero.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     71m1-5.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. codicioso o escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     71m2-2.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-10.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. guardador escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     71m1-12.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. mezquino.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-15.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. miserable escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>     71m1-15.
>>> ixcahua nitlaoniquixcauh. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo y
>>>     negligencia.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua] 55m-6.
>>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuido.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua] 71m1-8.
>>> ixcahua ahtleh niquahtleh oniquixcauh. ser codicioso de quanto ay.
>>>     [p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua ah1-tleh] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-liz]
>>>     55m-1.
>>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia, o escaseza.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-liz] 71m1-3.
>>> ixcahualtia nicnonicnixcahualti. perder algo por su culpa y
>>>     negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahualtia nicn. priuarme yo mismo de alguna cosa o perder y quedar
>>>     defraudado  de algo por mi culpa y negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-caus01] 71m1-17.
>>> ixcahualtia ninotlaoninotlaixcahualti. perder alguna cosa porsu
>>>     descuido y negligencia.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>>     +mis_analysis.] 71m2-21.
>>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>>     +mis_analysis.4] 55m-5.
>>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>>     71m1-7.
>>> ixcahualtia nitetlaonitetlaixcahualti. impedir algun bien o prouecho
>>>     de alguno.  [p11-p52-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     caus01-liz] 55m-5.
>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. culpa de negligencia y omission.  [p53-p51-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-liz] 71m2-12.
>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento assi.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     caus01-liz] 71m1-7.
>>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 55m-1.
>>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 71m1-3.
>>> ixcahuia mo. cosa sola, o el que asus solas haze alguna cosa.  [p54-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-10.
>>> ixcahuia mo. sola cosa.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-19.
>>> ixcahuia nicnonicnixcahui. comermelo yo todo o aprovecharse el solo
>>>     de alguna cosa, sin partirla con otros.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben] 55m-8.
>>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben] 71m1-10.
>>> ixcahuia ninoninixcahui. hazer algo asolas, o entender solamente enlo
>>>     que me toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 55m-8.
>>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben +mis_analysis.2] 71m1-10.
>>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo a solas.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-
>>>     12.
>>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo por si solo aparte.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 71m1-13.
>>> ixcahuia niquoniquixcahui. no tener mas de vna cosa.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahuia nitlaonitlaixcahui. entender en sola vna sola cosa.  [p11-
>>>     p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 55m-7.
>>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse en algo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-9.
>>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 55m-8.
>>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben] 71m1-10.
>>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal hombre vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>>     in poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 55m-3.
>>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal y vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben in
>>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m1-4.
>>> ixcahuia inacayo qu. persona viciosa y carnal.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m2-15.
>>> ixcahuiani mo. hazedor assi.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] 71m1-12.
>>> ixcahuihqui tla. atento o suspenso en algun negocio, estando todo
>>>     absorto enel.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 71m2-21.
>>> ixcahuihqui tla. embeuecido.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 55m-7.
>>> ixcahuil none. cosa que compete, o pertenece ami solo, y no a otro
>>>     alguno.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m2-12.
>>> ixcahuil none. oficio proprio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m1-16.
>>> ixcahuil none. oficio propio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 55m-14.
>>> ixcahuil in totecuiyo ine. es proprio y pertenece a solo dios.  [poss-
>>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1 in poss-te:uctli-yo:tl1] 71m2-7.
>>> ixcahuilchicahualiz none. esfuerzo, ovirtud de mi propria y sola
>>>     persona.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-12.
>>> ixcahuilchicahualiz tone. nuestro proprio esfuerzo o virtud.  [poss-
>>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-25.
>>> ixcahuillahtlacolli ne. culpa especial y propria de alguno.  [p53-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-l1-p51-ihtlacahui-l1 +l.for.tl +ltl>ll] 71m2-11.
>>> ixcahuilo. people are concerned, there is attention to.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben-lo:2] FC.
>>> ixcauhticatca. .  [i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-ti1-ca:1a-ca10] FC.
>>> ixcuamacahua nitla. dar con la carga en tierra, por se auer soltado
>>>     el mecapalli.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-cua:itl-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>> ixmacahua niteoniteixmacauh. dexar caer al que lleua acuestas.  [p11-
>>>     p52-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>> ixmacahua nitlaonitlaixmacauh. soltarsele el mecapal dela frente al
>>>     tameme.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, it is their doing.
>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, they pay heed.
>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved, they are concerned.  [p54-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they concerned themselves solely.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>     ben-ya3] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they were solely concerned, they were solely involved.
>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuicoh. they came concerning themselves (with this).  [p54-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-dir1b] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuitica. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuitica. he is dedicated to it.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-
>>>     ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuitoqueh. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-o-plur01] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuiz. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>> m[o]ixcahuiz. it will be used alone.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>> moneixcahuiltzin. your own affair.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>>     tzin] FC.
>>> moteixcahuiani. .  [p54-p52-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] FC.
>>> neixcahuilo. there is doing of only one thing.  [p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>     lo:2] FC.
>>> nicn[o]ixcahui. .  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-opt] FC.
>>> onixcahualo. there is carelessness.  [o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:2] FC.
>>> oquixcauhqueh. they forgot him.  [o:-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-plur01]
>>>     FC.
>>> quim[o]ixcahualtia. .  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] FC.
>>> quim[o]ixcahuiaya. .  [p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahua. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>> quixcahua. he neglects him.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. he is given to it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. he shows preference for it, he tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. she devotes herself to it; she tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. they are involved with it only; they tend to it alone.
>>>     [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuia. they devote themselves to it; they tend to it alone.  [p33-
>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>> quixcahuiaya. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahuiaya. he attended to just one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>     ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahuiaya. he concerned himself exclusively with it.  [p33-i:xtli-
>>>     ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahuiaya. they did one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahuiaya. they specialized in it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>> quixcahuihtica. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>> tiquixcahuicoh. we came to greet only him.  [p21-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>     dir1b] FC.
>>> tiquixcahuiz. you think only of it.  [p12-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>> toneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
>> Owen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
>


-- 
We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
Owen

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From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Thu Dec 11 15:04:16 2008
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:04:16 +0100
Subject: Neixcahuil
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.160416.0100.>

To Molly Bassett:

First your personal e-mail address isn't correct! 

Neixcahuilli: private things See R.Andrews Intro.446

In the possesive form:

*   Teneixcahuil: the private things of someone.

*   Intonal, imaxca, inneixcahuil intlahtoqueh: it is the privilege, the
property, the personel things of the Lords. Cod.Flor.XI,213v.

*   In huil inexcahuil: his private things.Sah.12.49.

*   Zan huel inexcahuil huel itonal: they were his alone, his
prerogative.Sah.12.5

*   Toneixcahuil: our private things.SIS.1952,329.

*   In tiyahcahuan tlacochcalcatl tlacateccatl in inneixcahuil yaotequi: the
brave wariors, the generals and the commanding generals whose personel
charge was command in war.Sah.8.73.

*   In huehuetqueh ihuan in ilamatqueh zan inneixcahuil catca in
tlahuanayah: it was the privelege of the old men and women of drinking
pulque.Sah.2.106.

*   Motecuihtotiah in teteuctin zan inneixcahuil catca in tlahtohqueh in
motecuihto tiayah: the Lords danse the dans of the Lords, it was their
exclusive privilege.

*   In tlein inneixcahuil impan mochihuaya: what in particular was done to
them.Sah.6.205

 

Baert Georges

Lahun Ik 62

Flanders Fields

 

 

 

 

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Dec 11 18:49:38 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:49:38 -0500
Subject: ineixcahuil question
In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0812101409u212061b5g642e0f6f03493ef9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.134938.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:

> Michael,
> My offhand comment about approximate meaning reveals one of my major
> hangups; I am distressed when people in discussions often arrive at an
> impasse when one cannot accept the specific meaning intended by an
> opponent who wants to argue. I prefer to use allternative words and
> even extensive sentences in conversation in order to clarify my
> meanings.
>
> I have verry limited ability and understand very few expressions in
> Nahuatl so my discussions are always approximate due to these peronal
> limitqations. I am convinced that very sophisticated thoughts can be
> expressed in Nahuatl by those who are masters of Nahuatl grammar when
> speaking to others who also are masters of grammar.

Every speaker, Owen, is a "master of grammar". Four-year-olds worldwide 
are already masters of their respective grammars. Every street vendor 
you meet who speaks Nahuatl fluently is an absolute master of grammar. 
Of course, being able to describe one's grammar is a completely 
different animal.

Now, there are indeed cases where people lose their mother tongue and 
thus lose their ability to navigate in the native language, 
syntactically speaking. Costa offers a memorable example for the 
Algonquian language Miami-Illinois, which lost its last native speaker 
in the 1960s. He mentions in his _The Miami-Illinois Language_ that the 
last recording of a partial speaker was done in the early 60s, and he 
offers one sentence from that recording that reveals language attrition 
in a fellow who was a speaker of the language in his youth.

The example is "Niila kineepikomeekwa moohci wiihsinilo," translated "I 
don't eat eel."

Niila, which is "I" is almost never seen as the subject of a verb;

moohci, which is "not" is never used to negate a verb (the negative 
conjunction is used);

and "wiihsinilo" is the singular *command* form of the verb 'eat', not 
the first-person singular form.

The guy certainly remembered something, but nothing grammatical.


>
> Thank you for pointing to my limited ability in linguistics.

*Everyone* has limited ability in linguistics, even Chomsky. :-) 
There's no end to the road.

All best,

Michael

>
> Owen Thomas
>
>
>
> On 12/10/08, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>> Quoting Owen Thomas <oenthomas at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Friends
>>> I have a developing friendship with speakers of Nahuatl from Guerrero.
>>> They do not discuss grammar nor have interest in specific meaning.
>>> Morphemes are not analyzed but they just try to convey meaning by body
>>> language and spanish words. They can communicate with people from
>>> Puebla and from the Huasteca even tho they use different words
>>> sometimes.
>>
>> Nocniuh,
>>
>> I'm relatively confident that this will not be the last and most
>> erudite reply to your email.
>>
>> But it's important to remember that *most* speakers of *every* language
>> in the world are not interested in conceptualizing the grammar or their
>> language. Language is for the most part an unconscious activity, and
>> most speakers don't have the faintest notion of grammar...or morphology.
>>
>> To say that the Nahuatl speakers around you have no "interest in
>> specific meaning" simply shows that you have some things to learn about
>> Nahuatl, Nahuatl speakers, and linguistics in general. That's all there
>> is to that notion.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The European fascination with grammar has not attracted them.
>>
>> The fascination with grammar probably attracts fewer than one percent
>> of the people on the planet. However, I do know of a Nahuatl speaker or
>> two who are very interested in grammar, and quite good at it.
>>
>>>
>>> Joe has an excellent library of 'words' that incorporate the morphemes
>>> and have accompanying spanish translations. His lists have often been
>>> of help in attempting to unerstand the 'approximate translation' of
>>> Nahuatl writings. Exact translation seens to be a hangup from European
>>> linguistic habits but does not concern my native speakers. They always
>>> try to help me undeerstand by Spanish approximate words.
>>
>> Joe's "lists of words" will be, in truth, a cornerstone of the
>> scholarship of the language for centuries to come, provided we don't
>> blow ourselves up first. Their value is incalculable, and will become
>> even more so with future Nahuatl language revitalization efforts in
>> Mexico.
>>
>> In passing, I can only assume that your "approximate translation"
>> refers to something you are working on in modern Nahuatl. Note that
>> Joe's opus involves three 16th-century dictionaries of the language.
>> Perhaps some of the confusion comes from how the language has changed
>> in the last 500 years.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Conversation with them is much easier that attempting to read exact
>>> meaning from Nahuatl written stories or legends.
>>
>> That may be true in your case. Each person is different. For example, I
>> find my English-as-a-second-language Arabic speakers are fantastic when
>> it comes to listening and speaking English, but are not good readers.
>>
>> Michael McCafferty
>>
>>>
>>> Owen Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/9/08, Campbell,  R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>> Dear Molly,
>>>>
>>>>    I wish I had Michael's memory, but it would be very unfair to him
>>>> for us to trade.  I'll just add a comment and some examples.
>>>>
>>>>    In the examples below, one can see in the finite verb forms that
>>>> ...ixcahuia... involves being concerned with something, concentrating
>>>> on something, etc.
>>>>
>>>>    ninixcahuia     entender solo en algun negocio
>>>>
>>>>    I assume that -cahuia is the benefactive form (often referred to as
>>>> the applicative) of cahua.
>>>>
>>>>    The nominalization of mo-ix-cahui-(a) is ne-ix-cahui-l-li and your
>>>> possessed form follows directly from that.  ... and the 'mo' is
>>>> replaced by the non-specific reflexive 'ne'.
>>>>
>>>> I put the examples below.
>>>>
>>>> Iztayohmeh,
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> Quoting Molly Bassett <mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu>:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm working through several passages in Sahag?n's General History
>>>>> that  contain the word ineixcahuil.  Dibble & Anderson translate the
>>>>> term  "his personal privilege," "characteristics" or "his special
>>>>> attribute" (2:52, 10:118a and 11:228), but I'm not sure how they
>>>>> determined these translations.  In particular, I'm stuck on the final
>>>>> - l.  Is it a patientive noun ending (Lockhart 28)?  If so, does the
>>>>> word mean something like "his abandoned/relinquished face/ surface?"
>>>>> [Molina has "neixcahuillalacolli. culpa especial y propriad  e
>>>>> alguno" (66r).]
>>>>>
>>>>> ineixcahuil
>>>>> i-   possessive pronoun, 3rd person singular
>>>>> -ne-  nonspecific reflexive object prefix
>>>>> -ix(tli)-  "eye, face, surface"
>>>>> -ca(hua)-  "to leave, abandon, relinquish sby/stg"
>>>>> -hui-  singular possessive suffix
>>>>> -l  ??
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
>>>>> Molly Bassett
>>>>> ______________
>>>>> Molly Bassett
>>>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies
>>>>> University of California, Santa Barbara
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> * i:xtli     ca:hua ***
>>>>
>>>> ahtlaixcahua. she is careful.  [ah1-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>>> ahtleh quixcahua. he is envious of everything, he covets everything.
>>>>     [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>>> aixcahualoni. one who is not to be neglected.  [ah1-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:1-
>>>>     ni1] FC.
>>>> amechonmotlaixcahualtilia. he [H.] causes you [pl.] to lose.  [p42-o:n-
>>>>     p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-ben H1] FC.
>>>> anconixcahuia. you [pl.] deal with it exclusively, you [pl.] tend to it
>>>>     alone.  [p22-p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> cemixcahuia niconiccemixcahui. estar ocupado y entender en sola vna
>>>>     cosa.  [p11-p33-cem-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-3.
>>>> conixcahua. they take their eyes off him.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>>> conm[o]ixcahualtia. he neglects it.  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>>>     FC.
>>>> connixcahuaya. they let him out of their sight.  [p33-o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ya3] FC.
>>>>
>>>> ineixcahuil. his personal privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>>>     FC.
>>>> ineixcahuil. his private thing.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>> ineixcahuil. its characeristic.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>>
>>>> ineixcahuilaxcatzin. his [H.] exclusive property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1-a:xca:itl-tzin] FC.
>>>> ineixcahuiltoca. its name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl] FC.
>>>> ineixcahuiltoca. its proper name.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>>>     to:ca:itl] FC.
>>>> ineixcahuiltzin. his possession.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-tzin]
>>>> FC.
>>>> inneixcahuil. .  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>> inneixcahuil. their function.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>> inneixcahuil. their personal charge.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>> inneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>> inneixcahuil. their sole property.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1]
>>>>     FC.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niquatleh oniquixcauh. ser apretado o escasso.  [ah1-
>>>>     tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-2.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     55m-1.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. auaricia tener.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     71m1-3.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. escasso ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-10.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niqu. mezquino ser.  [ah1-tleh p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua
>>>>     +mis_analysis.1] 71m1-15.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. cobdicioso de dinero.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     71m1-5.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. codicioso o escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     71m2-2.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-10.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. guardador escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     71m1-12.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. mezquino.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m1-15.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh qu. miserable escasso.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua]
>>>>     71m1-15.
>>>> ixcahua nitlaoniquixcauh. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo y
>>>>     negligencia.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuydo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua] 55m-6.
>>>> ixcahua nitla. dexar de hazer algo por descuido.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua] 71m1-8.
>>>> ixcahua ahtleh niquahtleh oniquixcauh. ser codicioso de quanto ay.
>>>>     [p11-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua ah1-tleh] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-liz]
>>>>     55m-1.
>>>> ixcahualiztli ahtleh qu. auaricia, o escaseza.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-liz] 71m1-3.
>>>> ixcahualtia nicnonicnixcahualti. perder algo por su culpa y
>>>>     negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahualtia nicn. priuarme yo mismo de alguna cosa o perder y quedar
>>>>     defraudado  de algo por mi culpa y negligencia.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-caus01] 71m1-17.
>>>> ixcahualtia ninotlaoninotlaixcahualti. perder alguna cosa porsu
>>>>     descuido y negligencia.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>>>     +mis_analysis.] 71m2-21.
>>>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01
>>>>     +mis_analysis.4] 55m-5.
>>>> ixcahualtia ninotla. desmerecer.  [p11-p54-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01]
>>>>     71m1-7.
>>>> ixcahualtia nitetlaonitetlaixcahualti. impedir algun bien o prouecho
>>>>     de alguno.  [p11-p52-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     caus01-liz] 55m-5.
>>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. culpa de negligencia y omission.  [p53-p51-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01-liz] 71m2-12.
>>>> ixcahualtiliztli netla. desmerecimiento assi.  [p53-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     caus01-liz] 71m1-7.
>>>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 55m-1.
>>>> ixcahuani ahtleh qu. auariento.  [ah1-tleh p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ni1] 71m1-3.
>>>> ixcahuia mo. cosa sola, o el que asus solas haze alguna cosa.  [p54-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-10.
>>>> ixcahuia mo. sola cosa.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-19.
>>>> ixcahuia nicnonicnixcahui. comermelo yo todo o aprovecharse el solo
>>>>     de alguna cosa, sin partirla con otros.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben] 55m-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nicn. entender solo en algun negocio.  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben] 71m1-10.
>>>> ixcahuia ninoninixcahui. hazer algo asolas, o entender solamente enlo
>>>>     que me toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 55m-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nin. entender en solo lo que le toca.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben +mis_analysis.2] 71m1-10.
>>>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo a solas.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-
>>>>     12.
>>>> ixcahuia nin. hazer algo por si solo aparte.  [p11-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 71m1-13.
>>>> ixcahuia niquoniquixcahui. no tener mas de vna cosa.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nitlaonitlaixcahui. entender en sola vna sola cosa.  [p11-
>>>>     p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 55m-7.
>>>> ixcahuia nitla. embeuecerse en algo.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] 71m1-9.
>>>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 55m-8.
>>>> ixcahuia nitla. entender en sola vna cosa.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben] 71m1-10.
>>>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal hombre vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>>>     in poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 55m-3.
>>>> ixcahuia in inacayo qu. carnal y vicioso.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben in
>>>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m1-4.
>>>> ixcahuia inacayo qu. persona viciosa y carnal.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben
>>>>     poss-nacatl-yo:tl1] 71m2-15.
>>>> ixcahuiani mo. hazedor assi.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] 71m1-12.
>>>> ixcahuihqui tla. atento o suspenso en algun negocio, estando todo
>>>>     absorto enel.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 71m2-21.
>>>> ixcahuihqui tla. embeuecido.  [p51-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-c2] 55m-7.
>>>> ixcahuil none. cosa que compete, o pertenece ami solo, y no a otro
>>>>     alguno.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m2-12.
>>>> ixcahuil none. oficio proprio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 71m1-16.
>>>> ixcahuil none. oficio propio ser de alguno solo.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben-l1] 55m-14.
>>>> ixcahuil in totecuiyo ine. es proprio y pertenece a solo dios.  [poss-
>>>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1 in poss-te:uctli-yo:tl1] 71m2-7.
>>>> ixcahuilchicahualiz none. esfuerzo, ovirtud de mi propria y sola
>>>>     persona.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-12.
>>>> ixcahuilchicahualiz tone. nuestro proprio esfuerzo o virtud.  [poss-
>>>>     p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-chica:hua-liz] 71m2-25.
>>>> ixcahuillahtlacolli ne. culpa especial y propria de alguno.  [p53-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-l1-p51-ihtlacahui-l1 +l.for.tl +ltl>ll] 71m2-11.
>>>> ixcahuilo. people are concerned, there is attention to.  [i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben-lo:2] FC.
>>>> ixcauhticatca. .  [i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-ti1-ca:1a-ca10] FC.
>>>> ixcuamacahua nitla. dar con la carga en tierra, por se auer soltado
>>>>     el mecapalli.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-cua:itl-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixmacahua niteoniteixmacauh. dexar caer al que lleua acuestas.  [p11-
>>>>     p52-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>>> ixmacahua nitlaonitlaixmacauh. soltarsele el mecapal dela frente al
>>>>     tameme.  [p11-p51-i:xtli-ma:itl-ca:hua] 71m2-8.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, it is their doing.
>>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are concerned, they are involved, they pay heed.
>>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved, they are concerned.  [p54-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuia. they are involved.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they concerned themselves solely.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-
>>>>     ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuiaya. they were solely concerned, they were solely involved.
>>>>     [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuicoh. they came concerning themselves (with this).  [p54-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-dir1b] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuitica. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuitica. he is dedicated to it.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-
>>>>     ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuitoqueh. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-o-plur01] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuiz. .  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>>> m[o]ixcahuiz. it will be used alone.  [p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>>> moneixcahuiltzin. your own affair.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-
>>>>     tzin] FC.
>>>> moteixcahuiani. .  [p54-p52-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ni1] FC.
>>>> neixcahuilo. there is doing of only one thing.  [p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>>     lo:2] FC.
>>>> nicn[o]ixcahui. .  [p11-p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-opt] FC.
>>>> onixcahualo. there is carelessness.  [o:n-i:xtli-ca:hua-lo:2] FC.
>>>> oquixcauhqueh. they forgot him.  [o:-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-prt1-plur01]
>>>>     FC.
>>>> quim[o]ixcahualtia. .  [p33-o:n-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-caus01] FC.
>>>> quim[o]ixcahuiaya. .  [p33-p54-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahua. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>>> quixcahua. he neglects him.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. he is given to it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. he shows preference for it, he tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. she devotes herself to it; she tends to it alone.  [p33-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. they are involved with it only; they tend to it alone.
>>>>     [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuia. they devote themselves to it; they tend to it alone.  [p33-
>>>>     i:xtli-ca:hua-ben] FC.
>>>> quixcahuiaya. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahuiaya. he attended to just one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>>     ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahuiaya. he concerned himself exclusively with it.  [p33-i:xtli-
>>>>     ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahuiaya. they did one thing.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahuiaya. they specialized in it.  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-ya3] FC.
>>>> quixcahuihtica. .  [p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-prt1-ti1-ca:1a aux11a] FC.
>>>> tiquixcahuicoh. we came to greet only him.  [p21-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-
>>>>     dir1b] FC.
>>>> tiquixcahuiz. you think only of it.  [p12-p33-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-z] FC.
>>>> toneixcahuil. their privilege.  [poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1] FC.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
>>> Owen
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> We are connected Look at this, http://unityindiversity.wikispaces.com
> Owen
>




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From dfrye at umich.edu  Thu Dec 11 20:44:37 2008
From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:44:37 -0500
Subject: "r" and "v"?
In-Reply-To: <000501c959bb$07666fc0$6501a8c0@CINDYDELLPC>
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.154437.0500.DFRYE@UMICH.EDU>

Apologies if this has already been answered...

Manuscript books (codices), at least from the colonial era, almost
always number sheets of paper, not pages. So the first page will be 1,
the second page will have no number, the third page will be 2, etc. This
system worked well enough for the people who wrote and read the
manuscripts, but when modern scholars cite texts from the old books we
want to know which side of the paper we are looking at, so we add "r"
for "recto" and "v" for "verso". The front of sheet 1 (page 1) is 1r,
and the unnumbered back of sheet one (page 2) is 1v, then 2r and 2v,
etc.

But you don't really need to know this for the footnotes -- just cite
them as they stand: 1v, 16r, etc.

-David


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Frye
Latin American & Caribbean Studies - LACS
International Institute, University of Michigan
3624 School of Social Work Bldg (note our new office address!)
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106
tel (734) 647 0844 - fax (734) 615-8880
http://www.ii.umich.edu/lacs/ 






-----Original Message-----
From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
[mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Williams
Gutierrez
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:00 AM
To: 'Nahuat-l ((messages))'
Cc: 'Grad Loaner'
Subject: [Nahuat-l] "r" and "v"?

Hello,

A friend of mine who is a folklorist and professor is publishing a book
about a curandera.  She quotes several Nahuatl poems in the book.  Her
copy editor wants her to identify all the sources of the poetry in
detail.  She doesn't know what the "r" and "v" that follow the folio
number of the codices indicate.  Can someone help?

Thank you, 
Cindy WG

cindy williams gutierrez
poet-dramatist/performer
GRITO poetry/productions
(503) 631-4113
cindy at grito-poetry.com 
www.grito-poetry.com


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From neinast at worldnet.att.net  Tue Dec 30 21:25:53 2008
From: neinast at worldnet.att.net (Robert A. Neinast)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:25:53 -0500
Subject: Chicago's Field Museum
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.162553.0500.NEINAST@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>

I was at the Field Museum this past Sunday, where they currently
have their "The Aztec World" exhibit (through April 19). It's
a nice exhibit, but . . .

But I drove my wife nuts, because I could not refrain from
commenting about nearly every descriptive plaque, which
"told" us how to pronounce some the of the nahuatl words.

An example that illustrates the problem:

  tecuhtli (teh-COOT-lee).

Yes, that it what they had. They also had other
abominations like

  cuauhtin (kwah-oo-teen).

In splitting syllables, they also split "tl" and "tz",
putting the "t" at the end of one syllable,and the
"l" or "z" at the beginning of the next. Oh, and for a final
"tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".

Why, oh why, couldn't they have consulted somebody who
knew something?

Bob
-- 
" . . . and shun the Frumious Bandersnatch."
Robert A. Neinast
Pickerington, OH
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From cberry at cine.net  Tue Dec 30 21:49:47 2008
From: cberry at cine.net (Craig Berry)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:49:47 -0800
Subject: Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <495A91E1.4000102@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.134947.0800.CBERRY@CINE.NET>

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Robert A. Neinast
<neinast at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> An example that illustrates the problem:
>
>  tecuhtli (teh-COOT-lee).

Ouch.  Of course, that's how I was first taught to say it (by someone
who thought of himself as an expert...oh, well).  I'm still trying to
master that glottal sound, but I know now it's a two-syllable word, at
least.

> Yes, that it what they had. They also had other
> abominations like
>
>  cuauhtin (kwah-oo-teen).

How would you render that properly into informal phonetics?

> In splitting syllables, they also split "tl" and "tz",
> putting the "t" at the end of one syllable,and the
> "l" or "z" at the beginning of the next. Oh, and for a final
> "tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".

Given they couldn't station a staff person by each sign to teach how
to do the tongue positioning that produces the terminal -tl sound, I'd
say this was a reasonable compromise.  It's what I tell newbies to do,
just to get them from e.g. coh-AH-tul to COH-aht; the next step is
then to teach them the -tl trick.

-- 
Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/
"Lots of things in the universe don't solve any problems, and
nevertheless exist."  -- Sean Carroll
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From neinast at worldnet.att.net  Tue Dec 30 22:01:58 2008
From: neinast at worldnet.att.net (Robert A. Neinast)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:01:58 -0500
Subject: Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <8dee73060812301349w52bdff79y4f8bec0510ca843f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.170158.0500.NEINAST@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>

Craig Berry wrote:
>> Yes, that it what they had. They also had other
>> abominations like
>>
>>  cuauhtin (kwah-oo-teen).
> 
> How would you render that properly into informal phonetics?

I'd go with kwow-teen.

> Given they couldn't station a staff person by each sign to teach how
> to do the tongue positioning that produces the terminal -tl sound, I'd
> say this was a reasonable compromise.

Yeah, probably. This was definitely the least of
my complaints.

By the way, I just noticed on their web page,
<http://www.fieldmuseum.org/aztecs/intro.asp>,
they include a lot of their pronunciations.

So everybody else here can see what they did
and groan. :-) (You can also see when they did
it right.)

Bob
-- 
" . . . and shun the Frumious Bandersnatch."
Robert A. Neinast
Pickerington, OH
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 31 04:27:51 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:27:51 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re:  Chicago's Field Museum
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.232751.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

----- Forwarded message from mmccaffe at indiana.edu -----
    Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:26:14 -0500
    From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Reply-To: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Chicago's Field Museum
      To: Craig Berry <cberry at cine.net>

Quoting Craig Berry <cberry at cine.net>:

> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Robert A. Neinast
> <neinast at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> An example that illustrates the problem:
>>
>>  tecuhtli (teh-COOT-lee).
>
> Ouch.  Of course, that's how I was first taught to say it (by someone
> who thought of himself as an expert...oh, well).  I'm still trying to
> master that glottal sound, but I know now it's a two-syllable word, at
> least.

There's no glottal stop in this term. It's /te:kwLi/, where : indicates
a long vowel and L is the phoneme written with the digraph tl in the
classic Spanish orthography. The first syllable /te:kw-/ receives the
"stress".

>
>> Yes, that it what they had. They also had other
>> abominations like
>>
>>  cuauhtin (kwah-oo-teen).
>
> How would you render that properly into informal phonetics?

Well, this "kwah-oo-teen" is not really an abomination. It's actually
pretty decent informal phonetics. Would've been better had they put an
accent marker over the first syllable kwah- to show where the "stress"
falls.


>
>> In splitting syllables, they also split "tl" and "tz",
>> putting the "t" at the end of one syllable,and the
>> "l" or "z" at the beginning of the next.

That's pretty sloppy, gotta admit.


Oh, and for a final
>> "tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".
>

It's like that in some dialects, so it's not a great offense.


Michael



> Given they couldn't station a staff person by each sign to teach how
> to do the tongue positioning that produces the terminal -tl sound, I'd
> say this was a reasonable compromise.  It's what I tell newbies to do,
> just to get them from e.g. coh-AH-tul to COH-aht; the next step is
> then to teach them the -tl trick.
>
> --
> Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/
> "Lots of things in the universe don't solve any problems, and
> nevertheless exist."  -- Sean Carroll
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>




----- End forwarded message -----


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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 31 04:29:45 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:29:45 -0500
Subject: Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <495A9A56.8060003@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.232945.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting "Robert A. Neinast" <neinast at worldnet.att.net>:

> Craig Berry wrote:
>>> Yes, that it what they had. They also had other
>>> abominations like
>>>
>>>  cuauhtin (kwah-oo-teen).
>>
>> How would you render that properly into informal phonetics?
>
> I'd go with kwow-teen.

That's very nice for informal phonetics. Better than the Field 
Museum's. Again, an acute accent mark over the first syllable would be 
nicer.


Michael


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From neinast at att.net  Wed Dec 31 06:59:29 2008
From: neinast at att.net (Robert A. Neinast)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:59:29 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re:  Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <20081230232751.k437nistgggooogc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.015929.0500.NEINAST@ATT.NET>

Michael McCafferty wrote:
>>> Oh, and for a final
>>> "tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".
> 
> It's like that in some dialects, so it's not a great offense.

Don't forget, this exhibit was "The Aztec World," not
"The Modern Nahuatl Dialects World."

Or were there dialects 500 years ago that did this?

Bob
-- 
" . . . and shun the Frumious Bandersnatch."
Robert A. Neinast
Pickerington, OH
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 31 15:49:06 2008
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:49:06 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re:  Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <495B1851.5020401@att.net>
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.104906.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting "Robert A. Neinast" <neinast at att.net>:

> Michael McCafferty wrote:
>>>> Oh, and for a final
>>>> "tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".
>>
>> It's like that in some dialects, so it's not a great offense.
>
> Don't forget, this exhibit was "The Aztec World," not
> "The Modern Nahuatl Dialects World."

Naturally, an exhibit of this caliber should have -tl instead of -t. 
That's agreed.

>
> Or were there dialects 500 years ago that did this?

Yes. In fact, the sound written -tl derives from a proto-Uto-Aztecan 
/*t/ following /a/. It's not unreasonable to assume that some ancient 
dialects did not take that /*t/ to the sound written -tl. I don't 
believe the necessary evidence exists to corroborate that notion, 
however.

Michael

>
> Bob
> --
> " . . . and shun the Frumious Bandersnatch."
> Robert A. Neinast
> Pickerington, OH
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Wed Dec 31 22:31:57 2008
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:31:57 +0000
Subject: Chicago's Field Museum
In-Reply-To: <8dee73060812301349w52bdff79y4f8bec0510ca843f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.223157.0000.>

Likely the big temptation is to pronounce final -tl with the L as a vowel as in "battle". Likely most amphibianologists' pronunciation of "axolotl" is far from the mark. (I once saw a poem in English rhyming "Popocatepetl" with "kettle",)

I once advised: to say "teuctli", start with "tecuatli" and then gradually lose the "a" without letting any other sounds change.

(I had a similar problem during a scuba diving holiday in the Red Sea, teaching some English-speakers to say the Arabic word 'afwan = "thanks accepted" that starts with a glottal stop and then a stressed vowel.)

Citlalyani

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From ixtlil at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 31 17:06:44 2008
From: ixtlil at earthlink.net (Jerry Offner)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:06:44 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Re:  Chicago's Field Museum
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.110644.0600.>

If we brush aside, for the moment, the legions of linguistic angels by now
arrayed and thoroughly crowded on the head of a pin, and the more
interesting lingustic questions of museology and making non-Western 
languages somewhat accessible and hopefully even interesting and engaging
to museum visitors, what is the substance of the exhibit like?  

Some images can be seen at:

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/aztecs/

but are there new or very rarely seen objects?  Is any of the commentary
the least bit inaccurate or otherwise controversial?  How is it on the
Apocalypto scale--responsible and broad spectrum or sensationalist and
leering?  Certainly, the website's tone is promising.  Have they eschewed
the seemingly inevitable atmospheric flute music in favor of another theme
or approach?  

Having mounted a few exhibits myself, they are a very difficult balancing
act between sponsors, museums, museum directors, trustees and curators,
availability of material, outside marketing consultants, outside academic
consultants, exhibition preparation and design staff (often the most
inspiring, creative and unsung group), etc. etc. (It sounds difficult, but
it is great if exhausting and humbling fun). It would be a shame if all
this (admittedly lingustically-oriented) list has to offer about this
exhibit are some obscure, conflicting and ranking comments on pronunciation
guides for the English/Spanish (and other language) non-academic visitors
to the exhibit.  I don't recall seeing anything on the aztlan list about
the exhibit other than the announcement of its existence. 

And backed to those crowded angels--how exactly would one have written a
pronunciation guide that would engage the public? Are there prior examples
of excellence?  What about next time?  And what about this time?  Do the
comments offered so far encourage non-specialists to use specialists next
time or do they just further isolate all parties?

Show us.

Jerry Offner 


> [Original Message]
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: 12/31/2008 09:49:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fwd: Re:  Chicago's Field Museum
>
> Quoting "Robert A. Neinast" <neinast at att.net>:
>
> > Michael McCafferty wrote:
> >>>> Oh, and for a final
> >>>> "tl" they had it pronounced simply as "t".
> >>
> >> It's like that in some dialects, so it's not a great offense.
> >
> > Don't forget, this exhibit was "The Aztec World," not
> > "The Modern Nahuatl Dialects World."
>
> Naturally, an exhibit of this caliber should have -tl instead of -t. 
> That's agreed.
>
> >
> > Or were there dialects 500 years ago that did this?
>
> Yes. In fact, the sound written -tl derives from a proto-Uto-Aztecan 
> /*t/ following /a/. It's not unreasonable to assume that some ancient 
> dialects did not take that /*t/ to the sound written -tl. I don't 
> believe the necessary evidence exists to corroborate that notion, 
> however.
>
> Michael
>
> >
> > Bob
> > --
> > " . . . and shun the Frumious Bandersnatch."
> > Robert A. Neinast
> > Pickerington, OH
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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