From zorrah at att.net Sat Jul 12 01:48:46 2008 From: zorrah at att.net (zorrah at att.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:48:46 +0000 Subject: Bizarre sentence In-Reply-To: <485BBC31.20609@virginia.edu> Message-ID: Greetings, I just found this post and the reference to my website http://nahuatl.info/research/genetics.htm My site include a very rough draft article on the genetic migrations of the original inhabitants of "Ixachilan." I used Ixachilan because I learned that is one of the names that Nahuatl speakers use for our ancient homeland (The Western Hemisphere). I know native Nahuatl speakers from D.F., Cuentepec, and Puebla--all who use Ixachilan. Of course, there were no Nahuatl speakers in Siberia tens of thousands of years ago. However, I find nothing wrong with using Ixachilan instead of "America" or the Western Hemisphere. I really don't understand what is so political about using Ixachilan. Most of the research that I cite in the article is from primary literature. However, I do agree that the research needs a lot more development. Regardless, Ixachilan is simply another way to describe our (indigenous) ancestral homeland. I really would love to read anything composed in English or any other language that is NOT "contaminated" with political bias. Seriously, what knowledge is politically free? Human language and knowledge are socially constructed by humans who contaminate everything with their humanity. If humans are not responsible, then please explain who is! Citlalin _______________________________________________________ Citlalin Xochime, PhD candidate Rhetoric & Professional Communication Program New Mexico State University Department of English citlalin at att.net -------------- Original message from Joseph Burch : -------------- A quick Google on "nahuatl siberia" turned up the following articlecontaining references to "Ixachilan": http://nahuatl.info/research/genetics.htm An interesting article but, alas, one contaminated by political bias. Joe Burch Frances Karttunen wrote:On p. 157 in a volume titled Human Origins by Rob DeSalleand Ian Tattersall, beginning a section titled "The New World: But Notthe Newest," Al came across the following assertion: "Many ancient homo sapiens from Asia apparentlydiscovered that the Bering Strait was an important barrier between themand a landmass of which they knew little. The Nahuatl people ofSiberia even had a word for the Western Hemisphere, 'Ixachilan.'" ?????? Fran _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Sat Jul 12 13:12:53 2008 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2 at cox.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 06:12:53 -0700 Subject: Bizarre sentence In-Reply-To: <071220080148.12595.48780D7E00018DA00000313322218675169B0A02D29B9B0EBF0207040E049B070C@att.net> Message-ID: what is bizarre is saying (without any REAL factual evidence) that ..."The Nahuatl people of Siberia" existed. This language developed (and thus is an INDIGENOUS language of) IN " Ixachilan" , so it cannot be an Asian language. zorrah at att.net wrote: > Greetings, > I just found this post and the reference to my website > http://nahuatl.info/research/genetics.htm > My site include a very rough draft article on the genetic migrations > of the original inhabitants of "Ixachilan." I used Ixachilan because I > learned that is one of the names that Nahuatl speakers use for our > ancient homeland (The Western Hemisphere). I know native Nahuatl > speakers from D.F., Cuentepec, and Puebla--all who use Ixachilan. Of > course, there were no Nahuatl speakers in Siberia tens of thousands of > years ago. However, I find nothing wrong with using Ixachilan instead > of "America" or the Western Hemisphere. > > I really don't understand what is so political about using Ixachilan. > > Most of the research that I cite in the article is from primary > literature. However, I do agree that the research needs a lot more > development. Regardless, Ixachilan is simply another way to describe > our (indigenous) ancestral homeland. > > I really would love to read anything composed in English or any other > language that is NOT "contaminated" with political bias. Seriously, > what knowledge is politically free? Human language and knowledge are > socially constructed by humans who contaminate everything with their > humanity. If humans are not responsible, then please explain who is! > > Citlalin > _______________________________________________________ > Citlalin Xochime, PhD candidate > Rhetoric & Professional Communication Program > New Mexico State University Department of English > citlalin at att.net > > > -------------- Original message from Joseph Burch > : -------------- > > A quick Google on "nahuatl siberia" turned up the following > article containing references to "Ixachilan": > > http://nahuatl.info/research/genetics.htm > > An interesting article but, alas, one contaminated by political bias. > > Joe Burch > > Frances Karttunen wrote: >> On p. 157 in a volume titled Human Origins by Rob DeSalle and Ian >> Tattersall, beginning a section titled "The New World: But Not >> the Newest," Al came across the following assertion: >> >> "Many ancient h/omo sapiens /from Asia apparently discovered that >> the Bering Strait was an important barrier between them and a >> landmass of which they knew little. The Nahuatl people of >> Siberia even had a word for the Western Hemisphere, 'Ixachilan.'" >> >> ?????? >> >> Fran >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Jul 16 02:09:52 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:09:52 -0400 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word In-Reply-To: <4848345C.7020806@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I have a problem to present to the tribunal; actually, that's overly modest -- I have more than a tzontli of problems, but for now, I just brought: motlaxcaloa tortillas are made (book 11, Florentine Codex) My problem is based on the fact that this word doesn't fit my framework for thinking about word formation. I think that there are three apparent "verber" endings in -oa: 1. intransitive, formed by adding -oa to a noun stem: noun verb gloss ayacachtli nayacachoa I use a rattle camanalli camanaloa he makes jests caxitl ticaxoah we use a bowl quiquiztli niquiquizoa I sound a trumpet tamalli titamaloa you produce tamales teponaztli titeponazoah we play the teponaztli drum tlaxcalli nitlaxcaloa I produce tortillas 2. transitive, formed by changing intransitive -ihui or -ahui (which *may* be formed on nouns) to -oa: acalihui it develops a groove nicacaloa I groove it chichilihui it turns red nitlachichiloa I color something red ihtlacahui it deteriorates, it suffers damage nitlahtlacoa I damage something, I sin polihui it vanishes, it perishes ticpoloa you destroy it, you spend it tzetzelihui it sifts, it drifts scattering (e.g., like snow) nitlatzetzeloa I sift something xelihui it splits nicxeloa I split it 3. The third *apparent* -oa verber, which is normally spelled with -oa, is really a masquerading -ohua. The 'hu' (/w/) does not contrast with its absence after /o/, so some dialects delete it and others insert /w/ in /oa/ sequences to form [owa]. I believe that all examples of (3) involve -hua added to '-yotl' with an embedded noun. I will spell the examples in the traditional deceptive way (i.e., with '-oa'): acatl acayotl acayoa to fill up with cane ahhuatl ahhuayotl ahhuayoa to fill up with thorns atemitl atenyotl atenyoa to become lousy azcatl azcayotl azcayoa to become full of ants exotl exoyotl exoyoa it forms a bean iztatl iztayotl iztayoa for food to be salty teuhtli teuhyotl teuhyoa to become dusty Of course when the noun stem embedded in '-yotl' ends in 'l', the result is 'll': ocuilin ocuillotl ocuilloa to become wormy acelli acellotl acelloa to become full of nits capolin capollotl capolloa to produce cherries *********************** So that's the background. My problem is understanding how the intransitive verb formation which is involved with 'tlaxcalli, tamalli, and ayacachtli' can occur with the object prefix 'mo-'. Here are all the examples I have found: motamaloa. tamales are made. momatlaxcaloa. it beats its wings together. motlaxcaloa. tortillas are made. momamatlaxcalohtiuh. it goes clapping its hands. (I hope everyone likes the metaphor as much as I do.) mocuechayacachoa. it rattles its rattles. ********************** I would appreciate any thoughts from anybody who is sitting around the cracker barrel this summer, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From alanrking at yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 18:30:20 2008 From: alanrking at yahoo.com (Alan King) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:30:20 -0700 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word (Alan R. King) Message-ID: Hi Joe, For what it's worth I can offer you the following "negative evidence" from Pipil which, as far as it goes, supports what I take to be your position that in theory a form such as motlaxcaloa "shouldn't" occur. In Pipil the corresponding verb tashkalua is found. Lyle Campbell glosses it as "tortear, hacer tortillas". (However in most Pipil dialects the generic word for "tortilla" is tamal.) LC labels tashkalua as t.v. (?) (the question mark is his). I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean, or even whether it is perhaps a mistake on LC's part - he is generally highly reliable. In any case, all other information I have would indicate that it is not transitive, i.e. there is no *niktashkalua as far as I know but only nitashkalua. I have the following example from the IRIN corpus (interview-format spontaneous conversations recorded and transcribed during the past three years) which clearly illustrates the use of the intransitive verb tashkalua (...tashkalua wan KImana...): wan kwak imejmey ne kwajkwawit tikpitzakuat wan iwan tikuntuiat tit pal ne siwat tashkalua wan kimana tay ne tutakwal "and when we break up branches of trees and with [them] we make [a] fire for the woman to make tortillas and cook what[ever is] our food" I have not a single example of *mutashkalua. This is also what my own "framework for thinking about" Pipil grammar predicts, according to which only formally transitive verbs may have reflexive forms. Alan _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Wed Jul 16 22:47:02 2008 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:47:02 +0200 Subject: motlaxcaloa etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Joe, I'm not quite sure that I fully understand the problem, so perhaps I'm about to put my foot in my mouth here. Aren't the examples you give for denominal intransitives in -oa, such as nitlaxcaloa 'I make tortillas' (lit. 'I tortillify' or the like) just the intransitive counterparts of reflexives (with transitive -oa) like motlaxcaloa(h) 'tortillas are made' (lit. 'they tortillify themselves')? The other categories of -oa you mention don't seem involved. Incidentally, English verbs in -ify also have a double status, some more often transitive (rectify), others more often intransitive (e.g. solidify). Well, I'm probably completely off the mark, so I'm looking forward to reading what our colleagues have to say on the matter. Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jul 17 05:13:04 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:13:04 -0400 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I am forwarding this message from John Sullivan in Zacatecas since he had problems connecting with Nahuat-l. Joe *********** Hey Joe, I believe that your verb is "tlaxcal(li)" + "-oa" (the first option below) = "to make tortillas". The problem is how the "mo-" reflexive is functioning. I'm going to answer this by showing how it works with a similar verb in modern Huastecan Nahuatl. 1. Let's start with the causative verb "ixtlahua", which takes "tla-" as an object. So we have, for example, "Fred tlaxtlahua", "Fred pays" or literally, "Fred causes s.t. (a debt) to be paid off". Since "tla-" ocupies the object slot, we can't use this form to mention anything else about the debt, such as what is owed, who the debt is owed to, or how much money might be paid. The best we can with this structure is say, "Fred tlaxtlahua tlen tzapotl", "Fred pays with respect to the tzapotl (that he owes)". 2. However, the native speakers here say, for example, "monequi motlaxtlahuaz ce tzapotl", "one tzapote needs to be paid for". 3. So, it looks like this "mo-" reflexive is capable of making a passive construction based on an object that is understood in the active construction of origin (tlaxtlahua), but not directly present in its structure. Now, lets go to "tlaxcaloa", "to make tortillas". It is a intransitive verb, so it shouldn`t be able to go to a passive form using the "mo-" reflexive. Not surprisingly the native speakers say, "Fred tlaxcaloa", "Fred makes tortillas". However, they also say, "Motlaxcaloa eyi cuachiquihuitl tlaxcalli", "Three baskets of tortillas are made". So I think we need to look for more examples of verbs that work like this: it looks to me like the "mo-" reflexive just causes the subject of a verb to disappear, but doesn't get involved in the object mechanism of the verb (like it normally would). And now, on another note, I'd like to say a bit more about how the verb "ixtlahua" works in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl: 1. ixtlahui. (intransitive) "to restored or satisfied (Kartunnen, p. 121)". This is unattested in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl. 2. tlaxtlahua, ni. (causative), "to repay a debt". Example, "Delfina tlaxtlahua", "Delfina pays a debt". We can also say, "Delfina tlaxtlahua tlen pitzotl", Delfina pays a debt with respect to a pig". 3. tlaxtlahuia, nic. (applicative), "to repay a debt to s.o.". Example, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuia", "Delfina repays me". We can also say, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuia tlen pitzotl", "Delfina repays me with respect to a pig". 4. tlaxtlahuilia, nic. (applicative), "to repay a debt to s.o. with respect to s.t.". Example, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuilia pitzotl", "Delfina repays a debt to me with respect to a pig". Notice how at this stage, the pig is finally incorporated into the structure as an object. We can also say, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuilia pitzotl ica mahtlactli pesoh", paraphrasing, "Delfina pays me ten pesos for the pig", however, as you can see, the money is not incorporated into the object structure of the verb. Ye ixquich, or as you would say in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, "zanyainon". John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Thu Jul 17 03:21:10 2008 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:21:10 -0500 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word In-Reply-To: <20080715220952.8g2kifl0sow4kcss@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hey Joe, I believe that your verb is "tlaxcal(li)" + "-oa" (the first option below) = "to make tortillas". The problem is how the "mo-" reflexive is functioning. I'm going to answer this by showing how it works with a similar verb in modern Huastecan Nahuatl. 1. Let's start with the causative verb "ixtlahua", which takes "tla-" as an object. So we have, for example, "Fred tlaxtlahua", "Fred pays" or literally, "Fred causes s.t. (a debt) to be paid off". Since "tla-" ocupies the object slot, we can't use this form to mention anything else about the debt, such as what is owed, who the debt is owed to, or how much money might be paid. The best we can with this structure is say, "Fred tlaxtlahua tlen tzapotl", "Fred pays with respect to the tzapotl (that he owes)". 2. However, the native speakers here say, for example, "monequi motlaxtlahuaz ce tzapotl", "one tzapote needs to be paid for". 3. So, it looks like this "mo-" reflexive is capable of making a passive construction based on an object that is understood in the active construction of origin (tlaxtlahua), but not directly present in its structure. Now, lets go to "tlaxcaloa", "to make tortillas". It is a intransitive verb, so it shouldn`t be able to go to a passive form using the "mo-" reflexive. Not surprisingly the native speakers say, "Fred tlaxcaloa", "Fred makes tortillas". However, they also say, "Motlaxcaloa eyi cuachiquihuitl tlaxcalli", "Three baskets of tortillas are made". So I think we need to look for more examples of verbs that work like this: it looks to me like the "mo-" reflexive just causes the subject of a verb to disappear, but doesn't get involved in the object mechanism of the verb (like it normally would). And now, on another note, I'd like to say a bit more about how the verb "ixtlahua" works in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl: 1. ixtlahui. (intransitive) "to restored or satisfied (Kartunnen, p. 121)". This is unattested in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl. 2. tlaxtlahua, ni. (causative), "to repay a debt". Example, "Delfina tlaxtlahua", "Delfina pays a debt". We can also say, "Delfina tlaxtlahua tlen pitzotl", Delfina pays a debt with respect to a pig". 3. tlaxtlahuia, nic. (applicative), "to repay a debt to s.o.". Example, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuia", "Delfina repays me". We can also say, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuia tlen pitzotl", "Delfina repays me with respect to a pig". 4. tlaxtlahuilia, nic. (applicative), "to repay a debt to s.o. with respect to s.t.". Example, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuilia pitzotl", "Delfina repays a debt to me with respect to a pig". Notice how at this stage, the pig is finally incorporated into the structure as an object. We can also say, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuilia pitzotl ica mahtlactli pesoh", paraphrasing, "Delfina pays me ten pesos for the pig", however, as you can see, the money is not incorporated into the object structure of the verb. Ye ixquich, or as you would say in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, "zanyainon". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx www.macehualli.org On Jul 15, 2008, at 9:09 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote: > Nocnihuan, > > I have a problem to present to the tribunal; actually, that's > overly modest -- I have more than a tzontli of problems, but for > now, I just brought: > > motlaxcaloa tortillas are made (book 11, Florentine Codex) > > My problem is based on the fact that this word doesn't fit my > framework for thinking about word formation. I think that there > are three apparent "verber" endings in -oa: > > 1. intransitive, formed by adding -oa to a noun stem: > > noun verb gloss > > ayacachtli nayacachoa I use a rattle > camanalli camanaloa he makes jests > caxitl ticaxoah we use a bowl > quiquiztli niquiquizoa I sound a trumpet > tamalli titamaloa you produce tamales > teponaztli titeponazoah we play the teponaztli drum > tlaxcalli nitlaxcaloa I produce tortillas > > 2. transitive, formed by changing intransitive -ihui or -ahui > (which *may* be formed on nouns) to -oa: > > > acalihui it develops a groove > nicacaloa I groove it > > chichilihui it turns red > nitlachichiloa I color something red > > ihtlacahui it deteriorates, it suffers damage > nitlahtlacoa I damage something, I sin > > polihui it vanishes, it perishes > ticpoloa you destroy it, you spend it > > tzetzelihui it sifts, it drifts scattering (e.g., like > snow) > nitlatzetzeloa I sift something > > xelihui it splits > nicxeloa I split it > > > 3. The third *apparent* -oa verber, which is normally spelled > with -oa, is really a masquerading -ohua. The 'hu' (/w/) does not > contrast with its absence after /o/, so some dialects delete it and > others insert /w/ in /oa/ sequences to form [owa]. > > I believe that all examples of (3) involve -hua added to '-yotl' > with > an embedded noun. I will spell the examples in the traditional > deceptive way (i.e., with '-oa'): > > > acatl acayotl acayoa to fill up with cane > ahhuatl ahhuayotl ahhuayoa to fill up with thorns > atemitl atenyotl atenyoa to become lousy > azcatl azcayotl azcayoa to become full of ants > exotl exoyotl exoyoa it forms a bean > iztatl iztayotl iztayoa for food to be salty > teuhtli teuhyotl teuhyoa to become dusty > > Of course when the noun stem embedded in '-yotl' ends in 'l', the > result is 'll': > > ocuilin ocuillotl ocuilloa to become wormy > acelli acellotl acelloa to become full of nits > capolin capollotl capolloa to produce cherries > > *********************** > > So that's the background. My problem is understanding how the > intransitive verb formation which is involved with 'tlaxcalli, > tamalli, and ayacachtli' can occur with the object prefix 'mo-'. > Here are all the examples I have found: > > motamaloa. tamales are made. > > momatlaxcaloa. it beats its wings together. > > motlaxcaloa. tortillas are made. > > momamatlaxcalohtiuh. it goes clapping its hands. > (I hope everyone likes the metaphor as much as I do.) > > mocuechayacachoa. it rattles its rattles. > > ********************** > > I would appreciate any thoughts from anybody who is sitting around > the cracker barrel this summer, > > Joe > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From budelberger.richard at 9online.fr Thu Jul 17 11:42:00 2008 From: budelberger.richard at 9online.fr (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:42:00 +0200 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word Message-ID: 29 messidor an CCXVI (le 17 juillet 2008 d. c.-d. c. g.), 13 h 16 : 23,2 °C... ----- Original Message ----- From: Campbell, R Joe To: John F. Schwaller Cc: Nahuat-l ((messages)) Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 4:09 AM Subject: [Nahuat-l] Help with a Nahuatl word > Nocnihuan, > > I have a problem to present to the tribunal; actually, that's > overly modest -- I have more than a tzontli of problems, but for > now, I just brought: > > motlaxcaloa tortillas are made (book 11, Florentine Codex) > > My problem is based on the fact that this word doesn't fit my > framework for thinking about word formation. I think that there > are three apparent "verber" endings in -oa: > > 1. intransitive, formed by adding -oa to a noun stem: > > noun verb gloss > > ayacachtli nayacachoa I use a rattle > camanalli camanaloa he makes jests > caxitl ticaxoah we use a bowl > quiquiztli niquiquizoa I sound a trumpet > tamalli titamaloa you produce tamales > teponaztli titeponazoah we play the teponaztli drum > tlaxcalli nitlaxcaloa I produce tortillas > > 2. transitive, formed by changing intransitive -ihui or -ahui > (which *may* be formed on nouns) to -oa: > > > acalihui it develops a groove > nicacaloa I groove it > > chichilihui it turns red > nitlachichiloa I color something red > > ihtlacahui it deteriorates, it suffers damage > nitlahtlacoa I damage something, I sin > > polihui it vanishes, it perishes > ticpoloa you destroy it, you spend it > > tzetzelihui it sifts, it drifts scattering (e.g., like snow) > nitlatzetzeloa I sift something > > xelihui it splits > nicxeloa I split it > > > 3. The third *apparent* -oa verber, which is normally spelled > with -oa, is really a masquerading -ohua. The 'hu' (/w/) does not > contrast with its absence after /o/, so some dialects delete it and > others insert /w/ in /oa/ sequences to form [owa]. > > I believe that all examples of (3) involve -hua added to '-yotl' with > an embedded noun. I will spell the examples in the traditional > deceptive way (i.e., with '-oa'): > > > acatl acayotl acayoa to fill up with cane > ahhuatl ahhuayotl ahhuayoa to fill up with thorns > atemitl atenyotl atenyoa to become lousy > azcatl azcayotl azcayoa to become full of ants > exotl exoyotl exoyoa it forms a bean > iztatl iztayotl iztayoa for food to be salty > teuhtli teuhyotl teuhyoa to become dusty > > Of course when the noun stem embedded in '-yotl' ends in 'l', the > result is 'll': > > ocuilin ocuillotl ocuilloa to become wormy > acelli acellotl acelloa to become full of nits > capolin capollotl capolloa to produce cherries > > *********************** > > So that's the background. My problem is understanding how the > intransitive verb formation which is involved with 'tlaxcalli, > tamalli, and ayacachtli' can occur with the object prefix 'mo-'. > Here are all the examples I have found: > > motamaloa. tamales are made. > > momatlaxcaloa. it beats its wings together. > > motlaxcaloa. tortillas are made. > > momamatlaxcalohtiuh. it goes clapping its hands. > (I hope everyone likes the metaphor as much as I do.) > > mocuechayacachoa. it rattles its rattles. > > ********************** > > I would appreciate any thoughts from anybody who is sitting around > the cracker barrel this summer, > > Joe Peut-être est-ce nous, Occidentaux, qui ne parvenons pas à concevoir qu'un verbe intransitif puisse sous sa forme réfléchie avoir un sens passif. Dans sa « Grammaire », Michel Launey dit en L. 6, § 6, « Sens du réfléchi » : « - e) réfléchi à sens passif, très développé (v. XV, 9) » où il écrit : S'il s'agit d'une action effectuée par des personnes non précisées sur des _choses_ précises, on se trouve dans le troisième cas -- (...) et /cf/. L. XV, § 4 -- : il n'y a pas de passif, mais la tournure réfléchie : Suivent des exemples, malheureusement seulement des verbes transitifs. Mais une rapide recherche dans le « Wimmer » me donne ° un verbe inanimé, « cuacualatza » : « mocuacualatza », on le fait bouillir. ° un verbe intransitif, « etlâza » : « metlâza ahnôzo motlapixahuia », on sème des haricots ou on les récolte - beans are sown or cast. Sah11,283. Alors, « motlaxcaloâ », « tortillas are made », « on fait des tortillas »... Budelberger, Richard. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jul 17 21:55:18 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:55:18 -0400 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word (Alan R. King) In-Reply-To: <365010.7345.qm@web43144.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Alan, Thanks for the info on Pipil. I'm interested in your negative evidence, partly because it bears on my perception of the apparent logic of object prefixes and whether the "verbing" affixes "remember" their transitivity. And my selfish self particularly likes it because it not only *bears* on my perception, but it *agrees* with it. My better self would have also been pleased if your evidence disagreed with the perception, since it is actually after the "Truth". All the best, Joe Quoting Alan King : > Hi Joe, > > For what it's worth I can offer you the following > "negative evidence" from Pipil which, as far as it > goes, supports what I take to be your position that in > theory a form such as motlaxcaloa "shouldn't" occur. > > In Pipil the corresponding verb tashkalua is found. > Lyle Campbell glosses it as "tortear, hacer > tortillas". (However in most Pipil dialects the > generic word for "tortilla" is tamal.) > > LC labels tashkalua as t.v. (?) (the question mark is > his). I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean, or > even whether it is perhaps a mistake on LC's part - he > is generally highly reliable. In any case, all other > information I have would indicate that it is not > transitive, i.e. there is no *niktashkalua as far as I > know but only nitashkalua. > > I have the following example from the IRIN corpus > (interview-format spontaneous conversations recorded > and transcribed during the past three years) which > clearly illustrates the use of the intransitive verb > tashkalua (...tashkalua wan KImana...): > > wan kwak imejmey ne kwajkwawit tikpitzakuat wan iwan > tikuntuiat tit pal ne siwat tashkalua wan kimana tay > ne tutakwal > "and when we break up branches of trees and with > [them] we make [a] fire for the woman to make > tortillas and cook what[ever is] our food" > > I have not a single example of *mutashkalua. This is > also what my own "framework for thinking about" Pipil > grammar predicts, according to which only formally > transitive verbs may have reflexive forms. > > Alan > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jul 17 23:01:59 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:01:59 -0400 Subject: motlaxcaloa etc. In-Reply-To: <57717.84.132.212.144.1216248422.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Hey Gordon, I really like your "...ify" glossing! Would you mind if I use it in the future? Your suggestion would have no problem if the verb "tlaxcaloa" were transitive. 16th century Nahuatl already has reflexives used as passives or impersonalizing elements: quipaca he washes it mopaca it is washed quichihua he makes it mochihua it is produced, it occurs (speaking of plants) But the problem is in the use of an object prefix on an intransitive verb. It's a little more clear with "basic" intransitive verbs: *qui-choca *nech-nemi *qui-paqui ...and it's the same if the object is reflexive: *mo-huetzca *mo-pozoni *mo-huetzi BUT it could be suggested that "tlaxcaloa" is a *transitive* verb. Of course, it would have to be in *addition* to its role as an intransitive verb because of "nitlaxcaloa, nitamaloa, nayacachoa, etc." (which have no objects). Considering this possibility, we would assume that transitive "tlaxcaloa" is formed in two stages, since that's the way -oa transitives are (tlilli > tlilihui > tliloa; acalli > acalihui > acaloa, etc.). The first stage would be "tlaxcalihui", which would mean 'it becomes like a tortilla' and the second stage would yield "nictlaxcaloa", meaning 'I cause it to become like a tortilla'. But there aren't any projective verbs which are formed from "tlaxcalli, tamalli, ayacachtli, etc." Faced with "motlaxcaloa", one might propose that, for some reason, verbs of this sort occur in the reflexive form. Some people might be worried because we see no cases of the posited intervening forms like "tlaxcalihui, tamalihui, ayacachihui, etc." (not even a "tlaxcaliuhqui, tamaliuhqui, ayacachiuhqui, etc."), but I think there is a strong argument non-occurrent intervening forms. What would worry me would be the semantic interpretation of the resulting reflexive verbs. Despite the fact that verbs like intransitive "tlaxcaloa" would be interpreted like "quiquizoa", 'he trumpetifies' and "camanaloa", 'he jokifies', reflexive "motlaxcaloa" would seem to need to be interpreted as 'it is caused to become like a tortilla' (because of its derivational path). I don't feel comfortable with the glossing on Nahuatl words, but you probably have a better sense of their difference in meaning than I can put into words. I thought your calling attention to verbs in English that are both transitive and intransitive was a good idea. Nahuatl certainly has verbs like that (e.g., "chipahua" and "ehua") and I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for help in thinking and all the best, Joe Quoting Gordon Whittaker : > Hi Joe, > > I'm not quite sure that I fully understand the problem, so perhaps I'm > about to put my foot in my mouth here. > > Aren't the examples you give for denominal intransitives in -oa, such as > > nitlaxcaloa 'I make tortillas' (lit. 'I tortillify' or the like) > > just the intransitive counterparts of reflexives (with transitive -oa) like > > motlaxcaloa(h) 'tortillas are made' (lit. 'they tortillify themselves')? > > The other categories of -oa you mention don't seem involved. Incidentally, > English verbs in -ify also have a double status, some more often > transitive (rectify), others more often intransitive (e.g. solidify). > > Well, I'm probably completely off the mark, so I'm looking forward to > reading what our colleagues have to say on the matter. > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gordon Whittaker > Professor > Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Jul 18 18:29:51 2008 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:29:51 +0200 Subject: Dual-category verbs in -oa and middle vs. passive voice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nicca, Joe! I would be honoured to have my -ify immortalized! But seriously, apart from suspecting that this -oa class is in fact a dual-status category (like your examples, chipahua, ehua), where in this case intransitivity is connected with a named agent (I, she, etc.) and reflexive transivity with impersonality or an unnamed agent (one makes tortillas, tortillas are made), I wonder whether these apparently very rare instances of formally reflexive intransitives are not limited experiments with a kind of middle voice. Consider the fact that the Leyenda de los Soles has at least two instances of passive constructions with a named agent, something that we also shouldn't have. Could both developments (or experiments) be part of a related shift that was arrested before it could take root? Perhaps a 16th-century reaction to Spanish usage? Not that such inspiration is necessary. And, just a thought - could we perhaps be dealing with a sequence -o-hua instead of -oa? Are there any preterites on record that would settle the matter? Well, that's all that occurs to me at the moment -- I'm still a little foggy after a rather short night. Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From richley.crapo at usu.edu Fri Jul 18 15:23:24 2008 From: richley.crapo at usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:23:24 -0600 Subject: Help on a citation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm trying to eliminate a ghost entry in a bibliography where I have only the author and year, but not the publication information. (I apparently failed to note the title and publisher when I referenced the publication.) I'm hoping that someone may know what Patricia Anwalt published in 1997. Thanks, Richley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jul 18 21:32:51 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:32:51 -0500 Subject: Help on a citation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe this? Anawalt, Patricia Rieff, "Traders of the Ecuadorian littoral," in Archaeology (Archaeological Institute of America), vol. 50, no. 6, Nov.-Dec. 1997 (http://www.he.net/~archaeol/9711/abstracts/ecuador.html; access: 2 Nov. 1997). _____ De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Richley Crapo Enviado el: viernes, 18 de julio de 2008 10:23 Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Help on a citation I'm trying to eliminate a ghost entry in a bibliography where I have only the author and year, but not the publication information. (I apparently failed to note the title and publisher when I referenced the publication.) I'm hoping that someone may know what Patricia Anwalt published in 1997. Thanks, Richley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From alanrking at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 09:29:27 2008 From: alanrking at yahoo.com (Alan King) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 02:29:27 -0700 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word Message-ID: It is true that IF tlaxcaloa could be used as a transitive verb (as well as an intransitive, since the latter use is undeniably attested), then that would license reflexive use... In Pipil, I have long noticed (in an independent context) the fact that there are some verbs which, as shown by the corpus, can be both intransitive and transitive. I haven't seen this issue covered in our (very scanty) Pipil linguistic literature and am not even sure what to call them, so I occasionally refer to these verbs as "semitransitives". Potentially any of these could take reflexive "mu-" given their ability to function as transitives. Which are the semitransitive verbs? Since I'm identifying them mainly on the basis of a corpus, only those which happen to occur in BOTH intransitive and transitive forms IN the corpus can be empirically identified, so such identification is partly down to chance and necessarily incomplete, but we can extrapolate from such attested cases and posit some generalisations. Some caveats are in order: correct identification also depends critically on the assumption being correct that none of the forms used as crucial evidence is a sporadic speaker error, a performance error or a mis-hearing, bad transcription etc., and it is also ideal if both intransitive and transitive uses are exemplified by speakers from the same town, or better yet, the same speaker, to rule out dialectal or idiolectal variation as the explanation (although the alternation would still be valid on the cross-dialectal/idiolectal level!). Now this is being very picky for a modest corpus the size of the one available for Pipil Nawat... With these caveats, "semitransitive" verbs would seem to belong to one of the following categories: 1) The well-known case of a(j)si "intr. arrive, tr. find" - seems to be a one-off. 2) Perhaps some incorporating verbs in which the root verb is lexically transitive - difficult to find clearcut examples. A possible example: yujyul(u)maka - intr. (attested in Cuisnahuat) "worry, wonder, think to oneself" - tr. (attested in Izalco) "cherish, show love for" 3) A larger number of verbs having the ta- prefix (i.e. indefinite-object "tla-"), at least etymologically when this is not synchronically transparent, or at any rate beginning with the phonemic material t-, ta- or taj- even though the "tla-" etymology of some of these is doubtful; and also the occasional verb in te-. A few examples: ta(y)i "clean ground" (synchronically unanalysable) tajkwilua "write" (*ijkwilua is nowhere attested in the corpus) tajpia "guard, care for" (cf. pia "have") ta(l)kulia "regalar, give, provide, offer up" (synchronically unanalysable) tashtaw(i)a "pay (for)" (synchronically unanalysable) tawilua "give light, illuminate" (cf. tawil "lamp, light") temaka "give away/over, surrender, sacrifice" (cf. maka "give") tisi "moler" (synchronically unanalysable) This is a rather mixed bag. The example listed here showing the closest analogy to "taxcaloa" would be "tawilua". An intransitive and a transitive occurrence from the corpus follow: INTRANSITIVE yaja kwika se itawil wan TAWILUA yawi "she takes a lamp and goes along lighting the way" TRANSITIVE keman kitak ka yawi se tawil shushuik KITAWILUA se mikini, ne takat mumutij "when he saw that there was a green (or blue?) light illuminating the cadaver, the man was scared" Clearly from the latter example one could derive by "transformation": Ne mikini MUTAWILUA iwan se tawil shushuik. "The cadaver is illuminated by a green light." I don't know whether there is a similar phenomenon in Mexican/Classical Nahuatl, and whether this issue is covered by existing descriptions. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ced22 at leicester.ac.uk Fri Jul 18 21:14:49 2008 From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk (Dodds, Dr C.E.) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:14:49 +0100 Subject: Help on a citation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If my memory serves me rightly, Patricia Anawalt published 'The Essential Codex Mendoza' with Frances Berdan in 1997. Could that be your reference? Caroline ------- Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock Lecturer in Early Modern History School of Historical Studies University of Leicester University Road Leicester LE1 7RH email: ced22 at le.ac.uk http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html ________________________________ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Richley Crapo [richley.crapo at usu.edu] Sent: 18 July 2008 16:23 To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] Help on a citation I’m trying to eliminate a ghost entry in a bibliography where I have only the author and year, but not the publication information. (I apparently failed to note the title and publisher when I referenced the publication.) I’m hoping that someone may know what Patricia Anwalt published in 1997. Thanks, Richley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From zorrah at att.net Sat Jul 12 01:48:46 2008 From: zorrah at att.net (zorrah at att.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:48:46 +0000 Subject: Bizarre sentence In-Reply-To: <485BBC31.20609@virginia.edu> Message-ID: Greetings, I just found this post and the reference to my website http://nahuatl.info/research/genetics.htm My site include a very rough draft article on the genetic migrations of the original inhabitants of "Ixachilan." I used Ixachilan because I learned that is one of the names that Nahuatl speakers use for our ancient homeland (The Western Hemisphere). I know native Nahuatl speakers from D.F., Cuentepec, and Puebla--all who use Ixachilan. Of course, there were no Nahuatl speakers in Siberia tens of thousands of years ago. However, I find nothing wrong with using Ixachilan instead of "America" or the Western Hemisphere. I really don't understand what is so political about using Ixachilan. Most of the research that I cite in the article is from primary literature. However, I do agree that the research needs a lot more development. Regardless, Ixachilan is simply another way to describe our (indigenous) ancestral homeland. I really would love to read anything composed in English or any other language that is NOT "contaminated" with political bias. Seriously, what knowledge is politically free? Human language and knowledge are socially constructed by humans who contaminate everything with their humanity. If humans are not responsible, then please explain who is! Citlalin _______________________________________________________ Citlalin Xochime, PhD candidate Rhetoric & Professional Communication Program New Mexico State University Department of English citlalin at att.net -------------- Original message from Joseph Burch : -------------- A quick Google on "nahuatl siberia" turned up the following articlecontaining references to "Ixachilan": http://nahuatl.info/research/genetics.htm An interesting article but, alas, one contaminated by political bias. Joe Burch Frances Karttunen wrote:On p. 157 in a volume titled Human Origins by Rob DeSalleand Ian Tattersall, beginning a section titled "The New World: But Notthe Newest," Al came across the following assertion: "Many ancient homo sapiens from Asia apparentlydiscovered that the Bering Strait was an important barrier between themand a landmass of which they knew little. The Nahuatl people ofSiberia even had a word for the Western Hemisphere, 'Ixachilan.'" ?????? Fran _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Sat Jul 12 13:12:53 2008 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2 at cox.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 06:12:53 -0700 Subject: Bizarre sentence In-Reply-To: <071220080148.12595.48780D7E00018DA00000313322218675169B0A02D29B9B0EBF0207040E049B070C@att.net> Message-ID: what is bizarre is saying (without any REAL factual evidence) that ..."The Nahuatl people of Siberia" existed. This language developed (and thus is an INDIGENOUS language of) IN " Ixachilan" , so it cannot be an Asian language. zorrah at att.net wrote: > Greetings, > I just found this post and the reference to my website > http://nahuatl.info/research/genetics.htm > My site include a very rough draft article on the genetic migrations > of the original inhabitants of "Ixachilan." I used Ixachilan because I > learned that is one of the names that Nahuatl speakers use for our > ancient homeland (The Western Hemisphere). I know native Nahuatl > speakers from D.F., Cuentepec, and Puebla--all who use Ixachilan. Of > course, there were no Nahuatl speakers in Siberia tens of thousands of > years ago. However, I find nothing wrong with using Ixachilan instead > of "America" or the Western Hemisphere. > > I really don't understand what is so political about using Ixachilan. > > Most of the research that I cite in the article is from primary > literature. However, I do agree that the research needs a lot more > development. Regardless, Ixachilan is simply another way to describe > our (indigenous) ancestral homeland. > > I really would love to read anything composed in English or any other > language that is NOT "contaminated" with political bias. Seriously, > what knowledge is politically free? Human language and knowledge are > socially constructed by humans who contaminate everything with their > humanity. If humans are not responsible, then please explain who is! > > Citlalin > _______________________________________________________ > Citlalin Xochime, PhD candidate > Rhetoric & Professional Communication Program > New Mexico State University Department of English > citlalin at att.net > > > -------------- Original message from Joseph Burch > : -------------- > > A quick Google on "nahuatl siberia" turned up the following > article containing references to "Ixachilan": > > http://nahuatl.info/research/genetics.htm > > An interesting article but, alas, one contaminated by political bias. > > Joe Burch > > Frances Karttunen wrote: >> On p. 157 in a volume titled Human Origins by Rob DeSalle and Ian >> Tattersall, beginning a section titled "The New World: But Not >> the Newest," Al came across the following assertion: >> >> "Many ancient h/omo sapiens /from Asia apparently discovered that >> the Bering Strait was an important barrier between them and a >> landmass of which they knew little. The Nahuatl people of >> Siberia even had a word for the Western Hemisphere, 'Ixachilan.'" >> >> ?????? >> >> Fran >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Jul 16 02:09:52 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:09:52 -0400 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word In-Reply-To: <4848345C.7020806@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I have a problem to present to the tribunal; actually, that's overly modest -- I have more than a tzontli of problems, but for now, I just brought: motlaxcaloa tortillas are made (book 11, Florentine Codex) My problem is based on the fact that this word doesn't fit my framework for thinking about word formation. I think that there are three apparent "verber" endings in -oa: 1. intransitive, formed by adding -oa to a noun stem: noun verb gloss ayacachtli nayacachoa I use a rattle camanalli camanaloa he makes jests caxitl ticaxoah we use a bowl quiquiztli niquiquizoa I sound a trumpet tamalli titamaloa you produce tamales teponaztli titeponazoah we play the teponaztli drum tlaxcalli nitlaxcaloa I produce tortillas 2. transitive, formed by changing intransitive -ihui or -ahui (which *may* be formed on nouns) to -oa: acalihui it develops a groove nicacaloa I groove it chichilihui it turns red nitlachichiloa I color something red ihtlacahui it deteriorates, it suffers damage nitlahtlacoa I damage something, I sin polihui it vanishes, it perishes ticpoloa you destroy it, you spend it tzetzelihui it sifts, it drifts scattering (e.g., like snow) nitlatzetzeloa I sift something xelihui it splits nicxeloa I split it 3. The third *apparent* -oa verber, which is normally spelled with -oa, is really a masquerading -ohua. The 'hu' (/w/) does not contrast with its absence after /o/, so some dialects delete it and others insert /w/ in /oa/ sequences to form [owa]. I believe that all examples of (3) involve -hua added to '-yotl' with an embedded noun. I will spell the examples in the traditional deceptive way (i.e., with '-oa'): acatl acayotl acayoa to fill up with cane ahhuatl ahhuayotl ahhuayoa to fill up with thorns atemitl atenyotl atenyoa to become lousy azcatl azcayotl azcayoa to become full of ants exotl exoyotl exoyoa it forms a bean iztatl iztayotl iztayoa for food to be salty teuhtli teuhyotl teuhyoa to become dusty Of course when the noun stem embedded in '-yotl' ends in 'l', the result is 'll': ocuilin ocuillotl ocuilloa to become wormy acelli acellotl acelloa to become full of nits capolin capollotl capolloa to produce cherries *********************** So that's the background. My problem is understanding how the intransitive verb formation which is involved with 'tlaxcalli, tamalli, and ayacachtli' can occur with the object prefix 'mo-'. Here are all the examples I have found: motamaloa. tamales are made. momatlaxcaloa. it beats its wings together. motlaxcaloa. tortillas are made. momamatlaxcalohtiuh. it goes clapping its hands. (I hope everyone likes the metaphor as much as I do.) mocuechayacachoa. it rattles its rattles. ********************** I would appreciate any thoughts from anybody who is sitting around the cracker barrel this summer, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From alanrking at yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 18:30:20 2008 From: alanrking at yahoo.com (Alan King) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:30:20 -0700 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word (Alan R. King) Message-ID: Hi Joe, For what it's worth I can offer you the following "negative evidence" from Pipil which, as far as it goes, supports what I take to be your position that in theory a form such as motlaxcaloa "shouldn't" occur. In Pipil the corresponding verb tashkalua is found. Lyle Campbell glosses it as "tortear, hacer tortillas". (However in most Pipil dialects the generic word for "tortilla" is tamal.) LC labels tashkalua as t.v. (?) (the question mark is his). I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean, or even whether it is perhaps a mistake on LC's part - he is generally highly reliable. In any case, all other information I have would indicate that it is not transitive, i.e. there is no *niktashkalua as far as I know but only nitashkalua. I have the following example from the IRIN corpus (interview-format spontaneous conversations recorded and transcribed during the past three years) which clearly illustrates the use of the intransitive verb tashkalua (...tashkalua wan KImana...): wan kwak imejmey ne kwajkwawit tikpitzakuat wan iwan tikuntuiat tit pal ne siwat tashkalua wan kimana tay ne tutakwal "and when we break up branches of trees and with [them] we make [a] fire for the woman to make tortillas and cook what[ever is] our food" I have not a single example of *mutashkalua. This is also what my own "framework for thinking about" Pipil grammar predicts, according to which only formally transitive verbs may have reflexive forms. Alan _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Wed Jul 16 22:47:02 2008 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:47:02 +0200 Subject: motlaxcaloa etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Joe, I'm not quite sure that I fully understand the problem, so perhaps I'm about to put my foot in my mouth here. Aren't the examples you give for denominal intransitives in -oa, such as nitlaxcaloa 'I make tortillas' (lit. 'I tortillify' or the like) just the intransitive counterparts of reflexives (with transitive -oa) like motlaxcaloa(h) 'tortillas are made' (lit. 'they tortillify themselves')? The other categories of -oa you mention don't seem involved. Incidentally, English verbs in -ify also have a double status, some more often transitive (rectify), others more often intransitive (e.g. solidify). Well, I'm probably completely off the mark, so I'm looking forward to reading what our colleagues have to say on the matter. Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jul 17 05:13:04 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:13:04 -0400 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I am forwarding this message from John Sullivan in Zacatecas since he had problems connecting with Nahuat-l. Joe *********** Hey Joe, I believe that your verb is "tlaxcal(li)" + "-oa" (the first option below) = "to make tortillas". The problem is how the "mo-" reflexive is functioning. I'm going to answer this by showing how it works with a similar verb in modern Huastecan Nahuatl. 1. Let's start with the causative verb "ixtlahua", which takes "tla-" as an object. So we have, for example, "Fred tlaxtlahua", "Fred pays" or literally, "Fred causes s.t. (a debt) to be paid off". Since "tla-" ocupies the object slot, we can't use this form to mention anything else about the debt, such as what is owed, who the debt is owed to, or how much money might be paid. The best we can with this structure is say, "Fred tlaxtlahua tlen tzapotl", "Fred pays with respect to the tzapotl (that he owes)". 2. However, the native speakers here say, for example, "monequi motlaxtlahuaz ce tzapotl", "one tzapote needs to be paid for". 3. So, it looks like this "mo-" reflexive is capable of making a passive construction based on an object that is understood in the active construction of origin (tlaxtlahua), but not directly present in its structure. Now, lets go to "tlaxcaloa", "to make tortillas". It is a intransitive verb, so it shouldn`t be able to go to a passive form using the "mo-" reflexive. Not surprisingly the native speakers say, "Fred tlaxcaloa", "Fred makes tortillas". However, they also say, "Motlaxcaloa eyi cuachiquihuitl tlaxcalli", "Three baskets of tortillas are made". So I think we need to look for more examples of verbs that work like this: it looks to me like the "mo-" reflexive just causes the subject of a verb to disappear, but doesn't get involved in the object mechanism of the verb (like it normally would). And now, on another note, I'd like to say a bit more about how the verb "ixtlahua" works in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl: 1. ixtlahui. (intransitive) "to restored or satisfied (Kartunnen, p. 121)". This is unattested in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl. 2. tlaxtlahua, ni. (causative), "to repay a debt". Example, "Delfina tlaxtlahua", "Delfina pays a debt". We can also say, "Delfina tlaxtlahua tlen pitzotl", Delfina pays a debt with respect to a pig". 3. tlaxtlahuia, nic. (applicative), "to repay a debt to s.o.". Example, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuia", "Delfina repays me". We can also say, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuia tlen pitzotl", "Delfina repays me with respect to a pig". 4. tlaxtlahuilia, nic. (applicative), "to repay a debt to s.o. with respect to s.t.". Example, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuilia pitzotl", "Delfina repays a debt to me with respect to a pig". Notice how at this stage, the pig is finally incorporated into the structure as an object. We can also say, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuilia pitzotl ica mahtlactli pesoh", paraphrasing, "Delfina pays me ten pesos for the pig", however, as you can see, the money is not incorporated into the object structure of the verb. Ye ixquich, or as you would say in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, "zanyainon". John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Thu Jul 17 03:21:10 2008 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:21:10 -0500 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word In-Reply-To: <20080715220952.8g2kifl0sow4kcss@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hey Joe, I believe that your verb is "tlaxcal(li)" + "-oa" (the first option below) = "to make tortillas". The problem is how the "mo-" reflexive is functioning. I'm going to answer this by showing how it works with a similar verb in modern Huastecan Nahuatl. 1. Let's start with the causative verb "ixtlahua", which takes "tla-" as an object. So we have, for example, "Fred tlaxtlahua", "Fred pays" or literally, "Fred causes s.t. (a debt) to be paid off". Since "tla-" ocupies the object slot, we can't use this form to mention anything else about the debt, such as what is owed, who the debt is owed to, or how much money might be paid. The best we can with this structure is say, "Fred tlaxtlahua tlen tzapotl", "Fred pays with respect to the tzapotl (that he owes)". 2. However, the native speakers here say, for example, "monequi motlaxtlahuaz ce tzapotl", "one tzapote needs to be paid for". 3. So, it looks like this "mo-" reflexive is capable of making a passive construction based on an object that is understood in the active construction of origin (tlaxtlahua), but not directly present in its structure. Now, lets go to "tlaxcaloa", "to make tortillas". It is a intransitive verb, so it shouldn`t be able to go to a passive form using the "mo-" reflexive. Not surprisingly the native speakers say, "Fred tlaxcaloa", "Fred makes tortillas". However, they also say, "Motlaxcaloa eyi cuachiquihuitl tlaxcalli", "Three baskets of tortillas are made". So I think we need to look for more examples of verbs that work like this: it looks to me like the "mo-" reflexive just causes the subject of a verb to disappear, but doesn't get involved in the object mechanism of the verb (like it normally would). And now, on another note, I'd like to say a bit more about how the verb "ixtlahua" works in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl: 1. ixtlahui. (intransitive) "to restored or satisfied (Kartunnen, p. 121)". This is unattested in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl. 2. tlaxtlahua, ni. (causative), "to repay a debt". Example, "Delfina tlaxtlahua", "Delfina pays a debt". We can also say, "Delfina tlaxtlahua tlen pitzotl", Delfina pays a debt with respect to a pig". 3. tlaxtlahuia, nic. (applicative), "to repay a debt to s.o.". Example, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuia", "Delfina repays me". We can also say, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuia tlen pitzotl", "Delfina repays me with respect to a pig". 4. tlaxtlahuilia, nic. (applicative), "to repay a debt to s.o. with respect to s.t.". Example, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuilia pitzotl", "Delfina repays a debt to me with respect to a pig". Notice how at this stage, the pig is finally incorporated into the structure as an object. We can also say, "Delfina nechtlaxtlahuilia pitzotl ica mahtlactli pesoh", paraphrasing, "Delfina pays me ten pesos for the pig", however, as you can see, the money is not incorporated into the object structure of the verb. Ye ixquich, or as you would say in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, "zanyainon". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx www.macehualli.org On Jul 15, 2008, at 9:09 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote: > Nocnihuan, > > I have a problem to present to the tribunal; actually, that's > overly modest -- I have more than a tzontli of problems, but for > now, I just brought: > > motlaxcaloa tortillas are made (book 11, Florentine Codex) > > My problem is based on the fact that this word doesn't fit my > framework for thinking about word formation. I think that there > are three apparent "verber" endings in -oa: > > 1. intransitive, formed by adding -oa to a noun stem: > > noun verb gloss > > ayacachtli nayacachoa I use a rattle > camanalli camanaloa he makes jests > caxitl ticaxoah we use a bowl > quiquiztli niquiquizoa I sound a trumpet > tamalli titamaloa you produce tamales > teponaztli titeponazoah we play the teponaztli drum > tlaxcalli nitlaxcaloa I produce tortillas > > 2. transitive, formed by changing intransitive -ihui or -ahui > (which *may* be formed on nouns) to -oa: > > > acalihui it develops a groove > nicacaloa I groove it > > chichilihui it turns red > nitlachichiloa I color something red > > ihtlacahui it deteriorates, it suffers damage > nitlahtlacoa I damage something, I sin > > polihui it vanishes, it perishes > ticpoloa you destroy it, you spend it > > tzetzelihui it sifts, it drifts scattering (e.g., like > snow) > nitlatzetzeloa I sift something > > xelihui it splits > nicxeloa I split it > > > 3. The third *apparent* -oa verber, which is normally spelled > with -oa, is really a masquerading -ohua. The 'hu' (/w/) does not > contrast with its absence after /o/, so some dialects delete it and > others insert /w/ in /oa/ sequences to form [owa]. > > I believe that all examples of (3) involve -hua added to '-yotl' > with > an embedded noun. I will spell the examples in the traditional > deceptive way (i.e., with '-oa'): > > > acatl acayotl acayoa to fill up with cane > ahhuatl ahhuayotl ahhuayoa to fill up with thorns > atemitl atenyotl atenyoa to become lousy > azcatl azcayotl azcayoa to become full of ants > exotl exoyotl exoyoa it forms a bean > iztatl iztayotl iztayoa for food to be salty > teuhtli teuhyotl teuhyoa to become dusty > > Of course when the noun stem embedded in '-yotl' ends in 'l', the > result is 'll': > > ocuilin ocuillotl ocuilloa to become wormy > acelli acellotl acelloa to become full of nits > capolin capollotl capolloa to produce cherries > > *********************** > > So that's the background. My problem is understanding how the > intransitive verb formation which is involved with 'tlaxcalli, > tamalli, and ayacachtli' can occur with the object prefix 'mo-'. > Here are all the examples I have found: > > motamaloa. tamales are made. > > momatlaxcaloa. it beats its wings together. > > motlaxcaloa. tortillas are made. > > momamatlaxcalohtiuh. it goes clapping its hands. > (I hope everyone likes the metaphor as much as I do.) > > mocuechayacachoa. it rattles its rattles. > > ********************** > > I would appreciate any thoughts from anybody who is sitting around > the cracker barrel this summer, > > Joe > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John Sullivan, Ph.D..vcf Type: text/directory Size: 33602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From budelberger.richard at 9online.fr Thu Jul 17 11:42:00 2008 From: budelberger.richard at 9online.fr (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:42:00 +0200 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word Message-ID: 29 messidor an CCXVI (le 17 juillet 2008 d. c.-d. c. g.), 13 h 16 : 23,2 ?C... ----- Original Message ----- From: Campbell, R Joe To: John F. Schwaller Cc: Nahuat-l ((messages)) Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 4:09 AM Subject: [Nahuat-l] Help with a Nahuatl word > Nocnihuan, > > I have a problem to present to the tribunal; actually, that's > overly modest -- I have more than a tzontli of problems, but for > now, I just brought: > > motlaxcaloa tortillas are made (book 11, Florentine Codex) > > My problem is based on the fact that this word doesn't fit my > framework for thinking about word formation. I think that there > are three apparent "verber" endings in -oa: > > 1. intransitive, formed by adding -oa to a noun stem: > > noun verb gloss > > ayacachtli nayacachoa I use a rattle > camanalli camanaloa he makes jests > caxitl ticaxoah we use a bowl > quiquiztli niquiquizoa I sound a trumpet > tamalli titamaloa you produce tamales > teponaztli titeponazoah we play the teponaztli drum > tlaxcalli nitlaxcaloa I produce tortillas > > 2. transitive, formed by changing intransitive -ihui or -ahui > (which *may* be formed on nouns) to -oa: > > > acalihui it develops a groove > nicacaloa I groove it > > chichilihui it turns red > nitlachichiloa I color something red > > ihtlacahui it deteriorates, it suffers damage > nitlahtlacoa I damage something, I sin > > polihui it vanishes, it perishes > ticpoloa you destroy it, you spend it > > tzetzelihui it sifts, it drifts scattering (e.g., like snow) > nitlatzetzeloa I sift something > > xelihui it splits > nicxeloa I split it > > > 3. The third *apparent* -oa verber, which is normally spelled > with -oa, is really a masquerading -ohua. The 'hu' (/w/) does not > contrast with its absence after /o/, so some dialects delete it and > others insert /w/ in /oa/ sequences to form [owa]. > > I believe that all examples of (3) involve -hua added to '-yotl' with > an embedded noun. I will spell the examples in the traditional > deceptive way (i.e., with '-oa'): > > > acatl acayotl acayoa to fill up with cane > ahhuatl ahhuayotl ahhuayoa to fill up with thorns > atemitl atenyotl atenyoa to become lousy > azcatl azcayotl azcayoa to become full of ants > exotl exoyotl exoyoa it forms a bean > iztatl iztayotl iztayoa for food to be salty > teuhtli teuhyotl teuhyoa to become dusty > > Of course when the noun stem embedded in '-yotl' ends in 'l', the > result is 'll': > > ocuilin ocuillotl ocuilloa to become wormy > acelli acellotl acelloa to become full of nits > capolin capollotl capolloa to produce cherries > > *********************** > > So that's the background. My problem is understanding how the > intransitive verb formation which is involved with 'tlaxcalli, > tamalli, and ayacachtli' can occur with the object prefix 'mo-'. > Here are all the examples I have found: > > motamaloa. tamales are made. > > momatlaxcaloa. it beats its wings together. > > motlaxcaloa. tortillas are made. > > momamatlaxcalohtiuh. it goes clapping its hands. > (I hope everyone likes the metaphor as much as I do.) > > mocuechayacachoa. it rattles its rattles. > > ********************** > > I would appreciate any thoughts from anybody who is sitting around > the cracker barrel this summer, > > Joe Peut-?tre est-ce nous, Occidentaux, qui ne parvenons pas ? concevoir qu'un verbe intransitif puisse sous sa forme r?fl?chie avoir un sens passif. Dans sa ? Grammaire ?, Michel Launey dit en L. 6, ? 6, ? Sens du r?fl?chi ? : ? - e) r?fl?chi ? sens passif, tr?s d?velopp? (v. XV, 9) ? o? il ?crit : S'il s'agit d'une action effectu?e par des personnes non pr?cis?es sur des _choses_ pr?cises, on se trouve dans le troisi?me cas -- (...) et /cf/. L. XV, ? 4 -- : il n'y a pas de passif, mais la tournure r?fl?chie : Suivent des exemples, malheureusement seulement des verbes transitifs. Mais une rapide recherche dans le ? Wimmer ? me donne ? un verbe inanim?, ? cuacualatza ? : ? mocuacualatza ?, on le fait bouillir. ? un verbe intransitif, ? etl?za ? : ? metl?za ahn?zo motlapixahuia ?, on s?me des haricots ou on les r?colte - beans are sown or cast. Sah11,283. Alors, ? motlaxcalo? ?, ? tortillas are made ?, ? on fait des tortillas ?... Budelberger, Richard. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jul 17 21:55:18 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:55:18 -0400 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word (Alan R. King) In-Reply-To: <365010.7345.qm@web43144.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Alan, Thanks for the info on Pipil. I'm interested in your negative evidence, partly because it bears on my perception of the apparent logic of object prefixes and whether the "verbing" affixes "remember" their transitivity. And my selfish self particularly likes it because it not only *bears* on my perception, but it *agrees* with it. My better self would have also been pleased if your evidence disagreed with the perception, since it is actually after the "Truth". All the best, Joe Quoting Alan King : > Hi Joe, > > For what it's worth I can offer you the following > "negative evidence" from Pipil which, as far as it > goes, supports what I take to be your position that in > theory a form such as motlaxcaloa "shouldn't" occur. > > In Pipil the corresponding verb tashkalua is found. > Lyle Campbell glosses it as "tortear, hacer > tortillas". (However in most Pipil dialects the > generic word for "tortilla" is tamal.) > > LC labels tashkalua as t.v. (?) (the question mark is > his). I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean, or > even whether it is perhaps a mistake on LC's part - he > is generally highly reliable. In any case, all other > information I have would indicate that it is not > transitive, i.e. there is no *niktashkalua as far as I > know but only nitashkalua. > > I have the following example from the IRIN corpus > (interview-format spontaneous conversations recorded > and transcribed during the past three years) which > clearly illustrates the use of the intransitive verb > tashkalua (...tashkalua wan KImana...): > > wan kwak imejmey ne kwajkwawit tikpitzakuat wan iwan > tikuntuiat tit pal ne siwat tashkalua wan kimana tay > ne tutakwal > "and when we break up branches of trees and with > [them] we make [a] fire for the woman to make > tortillas and cook what[ever is] our food" > > I have not a single example of *mutashkalua. This is > also what my own "framework for thinking about" Pipil > grammar predicts, according to which only formally > transitive verbs may have reflexive forms. > > Alan > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jul 17 23:01:59 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:01:59 -0400 Subject: motlaxcaloa etc. In-Reply-To: <57717.84.132.212.144.1216248422.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Hey Gordon, I really like your "...ify" glossing! Would you mind if I use it in the future? Your suggestion would have no problem if the verb "tlaxcaloa" were transitive. 16th century Nahuatl already has reflexives used as passives or impersonalizing elements: quipaca he washes it mopaca it is washed quichihua he makes it mochihua it is produced, it occurs (speaking of plants) But the problem is in the use of an object prefix on an intransitive verb. It's a little more clear with "basic" intransitive verbs: *qui-choca *nech-nemi *qui-paqui ...and it's the same if the object is reflexive: *mo-huetzca *mo-pozoni *mo-huetzi BUT it could be suggested that "tlaxcaloa" is a *transitive* verb. Of course, it would have to be in *addition* to its role as an intransitive verb because of "nitlaxcaloa, nitamaloa, nayacachoa, etc." (which have no objects). Considering this possibility, we would assume that transitive "tlaxcaloa" is formed in two stages, since that's the way -oa transitives are (tlilli > tlilihui > tliloa; acalli > acalihui > acaloa, etc.). The first stage would be "tlaxcalihui", which would mean 'it becomes like a tortilla' and the second stage would yield "nictlaxcaloa", meaning 'I cause it to become like a tortilla'. But there aren't any projective verbs which are formed from "tlaxcalli, tamalli, ayacachtli, etc." Faced with "motlaxcaloa", one might propose that, for some reason, verbs of this sort occur in the reflexive form. Some people might be worried because we see no cases of the posited intervening forms like "tlaxcalihui, tamalihui, ayacachihui, etc." (not even a "tlaxcaliuhqui, tamaliuhqui, ayacachiuhqui, etc."), but I think there is a strong argument non-occurrent intervening forms. What would worry me would be the semantic interpretation of the resulting reflexive verbs. Despite the fact that verbs like intransitive "tlaxcaloa" would be interpreted like "quiquizoa", 'he trumpetifies' and "camanaloa", 'he jokifies', reflexive "motlaxcaloa" would seem to need to be interpreted as 'it is caused to become like a tortilla' (because of its derivational path). I don't feel comfortable with the glossing on Nahuatl words, but you probably have a better sense of their difference in meaning than I can put into words. I thought your calling attention to verbs in English that are both transitive and intransitive was a good idea. Nahuatl certainly has verbs like that (e.g., "chipahua" and "ehua") and I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for help in thinking and all the best, Joe Quoting Gordon Whittaker : > Hi Joe, > > I'm not quite sure that I fully understand the problem, so perhaps I'm > about to put my foot in my mouth here. > > Aren't the examples you give for denominal intransitives in -oa, such as > > nitlaxcaloa 'I make tortillas' (lit. 'I tortillify' or the like) > > just the intransitive counterparts of reflexives (with transitive -oa) like > > motlaxcaloa(h) 'tortillas are made' (lit. 'they tortillify themselves')? > > The other categories of -oa you mention don't seem involved. Incidentally, > English verbs in -ify also have a double status, some more often > transitive (rectify), others more often intransitive (e.g. solidify). > > Well, I'm probably completely off the mark, so I'm looking forward to > reading what our colleagues have to say on the matter. > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gordon Whittaker > Professor > Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Jul 18 18:29:51 2008 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:29:51 +0200 Subject: Dual-category verbs in -oa and middle vs. passive voice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nicca, Joe! I would be honoured to have my -ify immortalized! But seriously, apart from suspecting that this -oa class is in fact a dual-status category (like your examples, chipahua, ehua), where in this case intransitivity is connected with a named agent (I, she, etc.) and reflexive transivity with impersonality or an unnamed agent (one makes tortillas, tortillas are made), I wonder whether these apparently very rare instances of formally reflexive intransitives are not limited experiments with a kind of middle voice. Consider the fact that the Leyenda de los Soles has at least two instances of passive constructions with a named agent, something that we also shouldn't have. Could both developments (or experiments) be part of a related shift that was arrested before it could take root? Perhaps a 16th-century reaction to Spanish usage? Not that such inspiration is necessary. And, just a thought - could we perhaps be dealing with a sequence -o-hua instead of -oa? Are there any preterites on record that would settle the matter? Well, that's all that occurs to me at the moment -- I'm still a little foggy after a rather short night. Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From richley.crapo at usu.edu Fri Jul 18 15:23:24 2008 From: richley.crapo at usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:23:24 -0600 Subject: Help on a citation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm trying to eliminate a ghost entry in a bibliography where I have only the author and year, but not the publication information. (I apparently failed to note the title and publisher when I referenced the publication.) I'm hoping that someone may know what Patricia Anwalt published in 1997. Thanks, Richley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jul 18 21:32:51 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:32:51 -0500 Subject: Help on a citation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe this? Anawalt, Patricia Rieff, "Traders of the Ecuadorian littoral," in Archaeology (Archaeological Institute of America), vol. 50, no. 6, Nov.-Dec. 1997 (http://www.he.net/~archaeol/9711/abstracts/ecuador.html; access: 2 Nov. 1997). _____ De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Richley Crapo Enviado el: viernes, 18 de julio de 2008 10:23 Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Help on a citation I'm trying to eliminate a ghost entry in a bibliography where I have only the author and year, but not the publication information. (I apparently failed to note the title and publisher when I referenced the publication.) I'm hoping that someone may know what Patricia Anwalt published in 1997. Thanks, Richley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From alanrking at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 09:29:27 2008 From: alanrking at yahoo.com (Alan King) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 02:29:27 -0700 Subject: Help with a Nahuatl word Message-ID: It is true that IF tlaxcaloa could be used as a transitive verb (as well as an intransitive, since the latter use is undeniably attested), then that would license reflexive use... In Pipil, I have long noticed (in an independent context) the fact that there are some verbs which, as shown by the corpus, can be both intransitive and transitive. I haven't seen this issue covered in our (very scanty) Pipil linguistic literature and am not even sure what to call them, so I occasionally refer to these verbs as "semitransitives". Potentially any of these could take reflexive "mu-" given their ability to function as transitives. Which are the semitransitive verbs? Since I'm identifying them mainly on the basis of a corpus, only those which happen to occur in BOTH intransitive and transitive forms IN the corpus can be empirically identified, so such identification is partly down to chance and necessarily incomplete, but we can extrapolate from such attested cases and posit some generalisations. Some caveats are in order: correct identification also depends critically on the assumption being correct that none of the forms used as crucial evidence is a sporadic speaker error, a performance error or a mis-hearing, bad transcription etc., and it is also ideal if both intransitive and transitive uses are exemplified by speakers from the same town, or better yet, the same speaker, to rule out dialectal or idiolectal variation as the explanation (although the alternation would still be valid on the cross-dialectal/idiolectal level!). Now this is being very picky for a modest corpus the size of the one available for Pipil Nawat... With these caveats, "semitransitive" verbs would seem to belong to one of the following categories: 1) The well-known case of a(j)si "intr. arrive, tr. find" - seems to be a one-off. 2) Perhaps some incorporating verbs in which the root verb is lexically transitive - difficult to find clearcut examples. A possible example: yujyul(u)maka - intr. (attested in Cuisnahuat) "worry, wonder, think to oneself" - tr. (attested in Izalco) "cherish, show love for" 3) A larger number of verbs having the ta- prefix (i.e. indefinite-object "tla-"), at least etymologically when this is not synchronically transparent, or at any rate beginning with the phonemic material t-, ta- or taj- even though the "tla-" etymology of some of these is doubtful; and also the occasional verb in te-. A few examples: ta(y)i "clean ground" (synchronically unanalysable) tajkwilua "write" (*ijkwilua is nowhere attested in the corpus) tajpia "guard, care for" (cf. pia "have") ta(l)kulia "regalar, give, provide, offer up" (synchronically unanalysable) tashtaw(i)a "pay (for)" (synchronically unanalysable) tawilua "give light, illuminate" (cf. tawil "lamp, light") temaka "give away/over, surrender, sacrifice" (cf. maka "give") tisi "moler" (synchronically unanalysable) This is a rather mixed bag. The example listed here showing the closest analogy to "taxcaloa" would be "tawilua". An intransitive and a transitive occurrence from the corpus follow: INTRANSITIVE yaja kwika se itawil wan TAWILUA yawi "she takes a lamp and goes along lighting the way" TRANSITIVE keman kitak ka yawi se tawil shushuik KITAWILUA se mikini, ne takat mumutij "when he saw that there was a green (or blue?) light illuminating the cadaver, the man was scared" Clearly from the latter example one could derive by "transformation": Ne mikini MUTAWILUA iwan se tawil shushuik. "The cadaver is illuminated by a green light." I don't know whether there is a similar phenomenon in Mexican/Classical Nahuatl, and whether this issue is covered by existing descriptions. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ced22 at leicester.ac.uk Fri Jul 18 21:14:49 2008 From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk (Dodds, Dr C.E.) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:14:49 +0100 Subject: Help on a citation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If my memory serves me rightly, Patricia Anawalt published 'The Essential Codex Mendoza' with Frances Berdan in 1997. Could that be your reference? Caroline ------- Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock Lecturer in Early Modern History School of Historical Studies University of Leicester University Road Leicester LE1 7RH email: ced22 at le.ac.uk http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html ________________________________ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Richley Crapo [richley.crapo at usu.edu] Sent: 18 July 2008 16:23 To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] Help on a citation I?m trying to eliminate a ghost entry in a bibliography where I have only the author and year, but not the publication information. (I apparently failed to note the title and publisher when I referenced the publication.) I?m hoping that someone may know what Patricia Anwalt published in 1997. Thanks, Richley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl