From david_becraft at hotmail.com Thu May 1 08:20:08 2008 From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 01:20:08 -0700 Subject: dark/light skin color differences in pre- and post-conquest Mexico In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Listeros, In response to Carolines e-mail I ran across a website that has a curious quote. I cannot verify the source (sorry) but if anybody knows or has seen this quote, maybe they can produce the source. The website is: http://cyberbohemia.com/Pages/originoftem.htm What I find interesting in this quote is that sick people stained their skin black before partaking in the temescal. """In the 16th century, a Spanish priest expressed his contempt for the native bath in this note: "This is a picture of the baths of the Indians which they call 'temazcalli.' At the door is an Indian who was the mediator for illnesses. When a sick person took a bath he offered incense, which they term copal, to his idol and stained his skin black in veneration to the idol Tezcatlipoca. Many Indians, men and women, stark naked, took thesebaths and committed nasty and vile sins within."""" Just some food for thought. Pancho ---------------------------------------- > From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:58:04 +0100 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] dark/light skin color differences in pre- and post-conquest Mexico > > Dear Listeros, > > In response to Pancho's email, bathing was certainly both a sanitary and ritual activity, but it was not practised by Mexica priests. I wonder if you are thinking of the fact that it is believed that lay people (from the tlatoani downwards) liked to bathe twice a day. I don't know whether ritual bathing was common amongst priests in other indigenous Mexican cultures, but I think I am right in saying (though would welcome hearing about any source to the contrary) that bathing was prohibited amongst Mexica priests. Sacrificial victims were frequently bathed as part of the ritual, however. > > And, yes, Tenoch is usually regarded as a priest or priest-king. Coester posits that he was 'priest and chief of a tribe representing the theocratic element of the population' (as opposed to Mexitli who represented the warriors). If true, that would link him fairly closely to the priestly side.(A. Coester, 'Mexico or Mejico?', Hispania, 8.2 (1925), p.113) This is contradicted by Caso and Wicke, however, who say he was 'only a military chief'. (A. Caso and C.R. Wicke, 'Land Tenure Amongst the Ancient Mexicans', American Anthropologist, 65.4 (1963), p.865) There's clearly some controversy about this, probably because we don't really know. Ingham collated the claims of Torquemada, Duran, Tezozomoc and the Codex Mendoza about the founders and came to the conclusion that Tenoch was the chief or King and Meci was the high priests, so it clearly isn't a conclusive link. (J.M. Ingham, 'Time and Space in Ancient Mexico', Man, 6.4 (1971), p.621) Tenoch is certainly usually described! a! > s a priest, however, and it may be that the semi-sacred status of rulers in early Mexico makes the distinction unhelpful in some contexts. > > Yours, > Caroline > > ------ > Dr Caroline Dodds > Lecturer in Early Modern History > School of Historical Studies > University of Leicester > University Road > Leicester > LE1 7RH > > http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/people/ced22.html > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Becraft [mailto:david_becraft at hotmail.com] > Sent: 30 April 2008 08:18 > To: Dodds, Dr C.E.; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org ((messages)) > Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] dark/light skin color differences in pre- and post-conquest Mexico > > > > > > Hello Listeros, > > Didn't Priests commonly and ritually bathe twice a day? My understanding is that bathing was not only a sanitary practice, it was also a ritual one. Also, Tenoch is depicted as a very dark man in contrast to the other founders of Mexico-Tenochtitlan; is there any evidence that Tenoch was a Priest? I don't recall the source, so I apologize beforehand, but I remember that possibly status was given to darker skinned people. > > Pancho > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _________________________________________________________________ In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_realtime_042008 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu Thu May 1 14:11:19 2008 From: mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu (Molly Bassett) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 07:11:19 -0700 Subject: dark/light skin color differences in pre- and post-conquest Mexico In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, all. That text is from the Codex Magliabechiano. Attached are the image & original text. Best, Molly Bassett Molly Bassett Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies University of California, Santa Barbara -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: page_76v.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 303889 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: page_77r.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 359445 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- On May 1, 2008, at 1:20 AM, David Becraft wrote: > > > > > Dear Listeros, > > In response to Carolines e-mail I ran across a website that has a > curious quote. I cannot verify the source (sorry) but if anybody > knows or has seen this quote, maybe they can produce the source. > The website is: > > http://cyberbohemia.com/Pages/originoftem.htm > > What I find interesting in this quote is that sick people stained > their skin black before partaking in the temescal. > > > """In the 16th century, a Spanish priest expressed his contempt for > the native bath in this note: "This is a picture of the baths of the > Indians which they call 'temazcalli.' At the door is an Indian who > was the mediator for illnesses. When a sick person took a bath he > offered incense, which they term copal, to his idol and stained his > skin black in veneration to the idol Tezcatlipoca. Many Indians, men > and women, stark naked, took thesebaths and committed nasty and vile > sins within."""" > > > > Just some food for thought. > > > Pancho > > ---------------------------------------- >> From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:58:04 +0100 >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] dark/light skin color differences in pre- >> and post-conquest Mexico >> >> Dear Listeros, >> >> In response to Pancho's email, bathing was certainly both a >> sanitary and ritual activity, but it was not practised by Mexica >> priests. I wonder if you are thinking of the fact that it is >> believed that lay people (from the tlatoani downwards) liked to >> bathe twice a day. I don't know whether ritual bathing was common >> amongst priests in other indigenous Mexican cultures, but I think I >> am right in saying (though would welcome hearing about any source >> to the contrary) that bathing was prohibited amongst Mexica >> priests. Sacrificial victims were frequently bathed as part of the >> ritual, however. >> >> And, yes, Tenoch is usually regarded as a priest or priest-king. >> Coester posits that he was 'priest and chief of a tribe >> representing the theocratic element of the population' (as opposed >> to Mexitli who represented the warriors). If true, that would link >> him fairly closely to the priestly side.(A. Coester, 'Mexico or >> Mejico?', Hispania, 8.2 (1925), p.113) This is contradicted by Caso >> and Wicke, however, who say he was 'only a military chief'. (A. >> Caso and C.R. Wicke, 'Land Tenure Amongst the Ancient Mexicans', >> American Anthropologist, 65.4 (1963), p.865) There's clearly some >> controversy about this, probably because we don't really know. >> Ingham collated the claims of Torquemada, Duran, Tezozomoc and the >> Codex Mendoza about the founders and came to the conclusion that >> Tenoch was the chief or King and Meci was the high priests, so it >> clearly isn't a conclusive link. (J.M. Ingham, 'Time and Space in >> Ancient Mexico', Man, 6.4 (1971), p.621) Tenoch is certainly >> usually described! > a! >> s a priest, however, and it may be that the semi-sacred status of >> rulers in early Mexico makes the distinction unhelpful in some >> contexts. >> >> Yours, >> Caroline >> >> ------ >> Dr Caroline Dodds >> Lecturer in Early Modern History >> School of Historical Studies >> University of Leicester >> University Road >> Leicester >> LE1 7RH >> >> http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/people/ced22.html >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Becraft [mailto:david_becraft at hotmail.com] >> Sent: 30 April 2008 08:18 >> To: Dodds, Dr C.E.; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org ((messages)) >> Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] dark/light skin color differences in pre- >> and post-conquest Mexico >> >> >> >> >> >> Hello Listeros, >> >> Didn't Priests commonly and ritually bathe twice a day? My >> understanding is that bathing was not only a sanitary practice, it >> was also a ritual one. Also, Tenoch is depicted as a very dark man >> in contrast to the other founders of Mexico-Tenochtitlan; is there >> any evidence that Tenoch was a Priest? I don't recall the source, >> so I apologize beforehand, but I remember that possibly status was >> given to darker skinned people. >> >> Pancho >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _________________________________________________________________ > In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_realtime_042008 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri May 2 03:46:35 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 23:46:35 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl word formation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nocnihuan, One of features of Nahuatl that makes it fascinating to us is the wealth of metaphors captured in its word formation. Words like "acitlalin", 'dewdrop' (atl [water] - citlalin [star]) catch our attention, please us like a well-formed phrase, and even make us want to find more of them. One source of assistance in appreciating Nahuatl word formation is J. Richard Andrews' _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_ (either the first edition or the revised edition). It also presents us with suggestions for analyses of words which should make us stop and consider where sober analysis ends and where dubious suggestions begin. One example is the suggestion that "te:na:nquilia:" 'he answers someone' is derived from a source stem no longer extant, "*na:nca" 'to act in the manner of a mother'. Most people would not object to the idea of a productive stem which does not occur independently (if there is no stem "xel(-li)", we might have a difficult time accounting for "cuaxeltic", "xexeltic", "xelihui", and "xeloa"). (A side remark: I am very wary of phrases like "no longer" in the discussing the structure of a grammar, since I am afraid that the user is *really* thinking of the historical development of the language, rather than the grammar as it exists at a given point in time.) "*na:nca" leaves us with two problems: 1) we have no pattern of derivation to arrive at "te:na:nquilia:". When we have derivations like "pi:tza" 'blow' > pi:tztli 'whistle, something blown' > "nipi:tzoa" 'I use a whistle, I whistle', where the processes are seen as parallel to the same processes in the formation of other words, we have support for our trust in the hypothesis, but here it is lacking. 2) the semantic stretch between "mother" (i.e., act in the manner of a mother") and "answer" *might* bear some weight if that link were evident in other places in the language, but without that support, one's willingness to believe fails. --- Another example is the suggestion that "te:lpo:chtli" is derived from or related to "po:ca" 'it smokes'. Obviously, there are many Nahuatl words with the string "po:ch" involving the application of smoke, the act of incensing. ...but where is the semantic bridge between "youth" and "incense". I admit that there may be one and I would be happy to hear of credible evidence. --- These two examples are intended as an introduction to my main topic: "ohuihcan" 'dangerous place' (and many other examples involving danger and difficulty). In his first edition, Andrews presented these words as being derived from an obsolete verb "*ohuia" (note that I have abandoned long vowel marking). There was no implication that "ohuia" might be divisable then, but in the revised edition, the source for the well populated family of "ohuia" word is "ohhuia" (ohtli-verb suffix) 'to be like a road, to present danger'. Again, I can imagine that this is a possibility, but there is no evidence elsewhere linking 'road' and 'danger'. Further, there is no *clear* evidence of a "-huia" intransitive suffix meaning 'be'. (One possibility: "coyohuia" 'they howl' [they are like coyotes]) It is very interesting that the element is no longer "ohuia", but "ohhuia". While much of the material in Andrews' books rests heavily on Carochi's grammar, his belief in the 'road' / 'danger' relationship (without supporting parallels) motivates changing the shape of the data. He points out that Carochi does not show a glottal stop. But he changes his image of what the date is because it fits his theory (based on a tightly stretched semantic relationship). Granted, there is only one occurrence of a relevant piece in Carochi's grammar (f53v). Obviously, I believe that when we describe the morphology of a language, we should err on the side of caution. If we stretch the semantic bridges too far, the overall description is fragile and I worry about the expenditure of all that time on something too easily collapsible. What do y'all think? Iztayohmeh, Joe p.s. references to Andrews are below... ************* Andrews, revised edition p. 441 ohhuihca = it is in the manner of a thing that has become dangerous/difficult; i.e., with difficulty, with danger p. 574 ohhuia = to be like a road; i.e., to pose a danger; to be dangerous/difficult Carochi does not show a glottal stop closing the first syllable p. 579 ohhuiti = to have a road; i.e., to be in/face danger Carochi does not show a glottal stop *************** Andrews, first edition p. 31 In certain instances, the source verb is obsolete: ohuihca* = with difficulty [Class C pret theme: -(ohuih)0-. Compare the co-derived adjective ohuih, "it is difficult"] p. 32 The adverbials in *ca* may be negated by this procedure: ayohuihca* ~ aohuihca* = easily, without difficulty p. 257 Occasionally the source verb is no longer used: ohuih = it is difficult [Compare (ohuih-0-ca*-yo*)-tl, "difficulty, danger," and (ohuih-0-ca)-0, "with difficulty," both from the same preterit theme. p. 322 Itlah ohuih i*pan mochi*huaz. = Something dangerous will happen to him. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri May 2 14:27:17 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 10:27:17 -0400 Subject: Templo Mayor exhibit Message-ID: Listeros, Erik Boot has posted news of this exhibition opening at the Templo Mayor; Mike Ruggeri Yesterday, Sunday April 27, 2008, the Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia posted a short report on the recently inaugurated exposition entitled Coyolxauhqui y el Templo Mayor, 30 años reconstruyendo el pasado: 1978-2008. This special exhibit is hosted at the Museo del Templo Mayor in Mexico City until August 31, 2008, and features over 90 objects, many of which have never before been exhibited before (edited by AMaNU): Resume muestra 30 años de arqueología en el centro histórico - En febrero de 1978, cuando trabajadores de Luz y Fuerza del Centro se toparon con el monolito de Coyolxauhqui, difícilmente imaginaron que este hallazgo derivaría en la expropiación de más de 3 mil 500 m² del Centro Histórico de la capital mexicana, así como en el establecimiento de un proyecto de investigación que ha brindado múltiples luces sobre la cultura mexica. A 30 años de distancia, en opinión de Alfonso de Maria y Campos, director general del Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia (INAH), el Proyecto Templo Mayor "representa uno de los esfuerzos más importantes de la arqueología mexicana contemporánea, considerando la rigurosidad científica que ha podido alcanzar". Al inaugurar la exposición temporal Coyolxauhqui y el Templo Mayor. 30 años reconstruyendo el pasado. 1978-2008, el titular de la institución consideró que esta calidad en el estudio sobre la civilización mexica, se encuentra garantizada debido al intercambio de conocimientos entre especialistas de renombre y los nuevos cuadros de investigadores. "En el contexto mundial, los expertos del Proyecto Templo Mayor trabajan, codo a codo, con investigadores de todas las naciones. De suerte que la arqueología mexicana, con un relevo generacional muy visible, representa la seguridad de consolidar una gran cantidad de información acerca de nuestro pasado", expresó. En ese sentido, el profesor Eduardo Matos Moctezuma, investigador emérito del INAH y fundador del Proyecto Templo Mayor, hizo énfasis en los ciclos de conferencias resultado también de este programa y que han permitido el intercambio entre historiadores, biólogos, químicos, restauradores y, por supuesto, arqueólogos. "Un común denominador de esta conmemoración es, precisamente, el hecho de reunir a diversas generaciones de especialistas. Y así, desde estudiosos consagrados y reconocidos por sus aportes a la cultura azteca, hasta jóvenes alumnos que se inician bajo prometedores augurios, son muestra palpable de que hay un futuro promisorio para las labores por desarrollar". De esa manera, hasta el 31 de agosto, quien visite el Museo del Templo Mayor podrá apreciar una retrospectiva compuesta por alrededor de 90 piezas -algunas nunca antes vistas-, gráficos, así como videos que recrean virtualmente la disposición de los espacios del antiguo centro ceremonial tenochca. En Coyolxauhqui y el Templo Mayor…, sobresalen 4 almenas monumentales [illustrated above, photograph: Mauricio Marat/INAH], las cuales posiblemente remataron un calmécac o escuela de nobles mexicas. También se aprecian fragmentos de dos figuras que representan a las deidades Mictlantecuhtli y Xiuhtecuhlti, un Cuauhxicalli o recipiente en forma de águila, y la Piedra de la Librería Porrúa, conocida como La biznaga. Inclusive, el visitante conocerá la "paleta" original de la escultura de Coyolxauhqui. Luces especiales -proyectadas sobre el monolito original- recrean su cromática primaria, la que estuvo compuesta por rojo, ocre, azul, blanco y negro. A su vez, el público será recibido desde la entrada a la zona arqueológica, por una réplica coloreada.Carlos Javier Gonzaléz, director del Museo del Templo Mayor, recordó que durante la primera temporada de campo derivada del descubrimiento de Coyolxauhqui, bajo responsabilidad de Matos Moctezuma entre 1978 y 1982, se ubicaron 7 etapas constructivas del edificio y 110 ofrendas compuestas por más de 7 mil objetos. Finalmente, en 1987, el monolito fue trasladado a su lugar de honor en el recinto. Tal novedad provocó que el Museo del Templo Mayor superara en visitas al Museo Nacional de Antropología, durante su primer mes de funcionamiento; así mismo, destacó que es el tercer museo del INAH en haber recibido, al año, un promedio de 12 millones personas. Sin embargo, las labores de estudio no se detuvieron en 1982, continuaron otras cinco temporadas de excavación del Proyecto Templo Mayor (la séptima se lleva a cabo actualmente en el predio Ajaracas- Campanas), así como el Programa de Arqueología Urbana, con lo que se ha incrementado colección del museo y se han intensificado los trabajos de investigación. "Puede decirse, sin titubeos, que el del Templo Mayor es el proyecto más fructífero en la historia de la arqueología mexicana, avalan lo anterior más de 30 tesis profesionales -muchas derivadas en publicaciones-, así como más de 300 fichas bibliográficas producidas por los investigadores del proyecto", concluyó. For your convenience: Museo del Templo Mayor, one block from the Zocalo in Mexico City, has its visiting hours from 09:00 to 17:00 hrs., daily from Tuesday to Sunday. Entry fee is 48 pesos per person. Free entry for children under the age of 13 and adults above the age of 60, as well as for students and teachers with credential or Plan Joven card. On Sunday free admittance for all Mexican nationals (source INAH - Sala de Prensa). http://www.templomayor.inah.gob.mx/ Erik Boot's Ancient Mesoamerican News Updates http://ancient-mesoamerica-news-updates.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri May 2 14:28:45 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 10:28:45 -0400 Subject: From Aztlan: Codex Vaticanus y Fejervary Message-ID: Hola Elena Mazzeto Te doy algunos datos y espero te sean útiles: El personaje barbado de la esquina derecha con un abanico en su mano derecha y un baston es identificado como Yiacatecutli, el dios guía, el dios de la punta, el dios de la nariz torcida , el dios que al igual que la nariz de un humano va adelante, entra primero, esta al frente. A Yiacatecutli o Yacatecutli se le identifica con el dios principal de ese grupo que se conoce como los Pochtecas, que literalmente seria los que son de la tierra de Pochtlan, la tierra de los Pochotes, forma de llamar a unos arboles de los cuales una de sus especies, y solo una de ellas es la ceiba para usar el vocablo corrupto que los españoles tomaronde los indios de las islas caribeñas para llamar a esos árboles. La ceiba es propia de las zonas costeras del golfo de México y está presente en las tierras de la peninsula de Yucatán. Historiadores y antropologos que evidencían su ignorancia sobre la botánica han hecho de ello la base para decir que los pochtecas eran de la costa del golfo o eran mayas que habitaron en la ciudad-reyno de Tlatelolco , ciudad de México. (goglea para mas informacion con el término pochtecas ) Lo que olvidan éstos "expertos" es que en otras, existen mas especies de pochotes y que estas se encuentran en distintas regiones de México de diverso entornos ecológicos. Ppor ejemplo hay pochotes en la Costa del Pacifico, en regiones serranas, en la llamadas Huastecas, en regiones semideserticas, en región bajió, en valles intermontanos, etc. Una revisión de lospueblos y sitios que en México llevan el nombre de Pochote o Pochutla o Puchtla o derivados y correlacionado con el tipo de ambiente y culturas prehispánicas que en ellos habitaron, hecha por tierras esa hipotesis oficialmente aceptada por la arqueológía mexicana y los lamados mexicanistas. Esta tésis fue creada y difundida en los años 40,s por el entonces estudiante Miguel Acosta Saignes. precisamente en su tesis para recibirse dedicada a los Pochtecas. Alguien que usa y retoma ésta tesis es Isabel Bueno en Tlateloco la Gemela en la sombra (p4 del archivo pdf) descarga ese artículo y juzgalo en este link : dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordenoo googlea con las palabras clave: pochtecas Tlateloco española También abusiva y equivocadamente a cualquier comerciante prehispánico otros "expertos" le llaman pochteca, cuando una revisión a distintos vocabularios nahuatl español nos permite ubicar una serie de terminos para llamar a los comerciantes de los cuales sólo unos de ellos eran pochtecas. Los pochtecas fueron y se distinguieron por ser una especifica combinación de comerciantes- guerreros y por sus particulares ritos . Un comerciante sin ser a la vez guerrero y sin sus ritos específicos no es pochteca, es solo un comerciante pero no es un pochteca. Para ello debes leer y sacar tus conclusiones de los apartados correspondientes de la obra del sabio Fray Bernardino de Sahagún: Historia General de las Cosas de la Nueva españ y el Códice Florentino en este hay una gráfica de Yiacatecutli El codice Fejervary es estilística y graficamente cercanísmo al códice Laud. ve este en el sitio de Famsi, sitio escritura códice Graz . http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/graz/#Aztec . ( Como siempre eterno agradecimiento a FAMSI por poner a nuestro alcance los códices) Este Laud esta dedicado al dios señor del Mictlan. el Mictlantecutli Seler propuso en su momento que estos códices podían agruparse en el llamado "grupo de códices Borgia". Lee por ello la clásica obra de Seler: Comentarios al códice Borgia, existe traducción al español editado por la editorial mexicana FCE. Tambien puedes ver señalamientos a las a las láminas del Fejervary , hechas por Seler en un archivo PDF descargable de Famsi en http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/ La revista Arqueología Mexicana publico una version comentada del códice Fejervary o Tonalamatl de los Pochtecas, comentarios hechos por el famoso mexicanista Miguel León portilla . El link de esta revista a este numero especial es http://www.arqueomex.com/S9N4SumarEsp18Esp.html. Siendo muy delgado lo podras comprar en el sitio te dicen como y te lo enviaran a tu casa sin que te sea muy costoso el porte del envió. Espero habert sido util Roberto Romero G _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Fri May 2 16:01:39 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:01:39 -0700 Subject: From Aztlan: Codex Vaticanus y Fejervary In-Reply-To: <481B251D.9060207@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: On May 2, 2008, at 7:28 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordenoo googlea > con las palabras clave: pochtecas Tlateloco española > El enlace esta... comido... Faltan unas letras y digitos aqui y alla. Aqui esta uno que da el articulo: http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordeno. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Fri May 2 16:23:19 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:23:19 -0700 Subject: From Aztlan: Codex Vaticanus y Fejervary In-Reply-To: <4713908A-F103-41EF-BAA3-5D1E87906C81@ipinc.net> Message-ID: ¡Con veinte mil demonios... se comio el enlace otra vez! Veamos... Despues de codigo hay un simbolo de "igual" y dos unos. Y despues de orden un simbolo igual un uno un "&" info un simbolo igual y un "link" http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordeno. o la alternativa: http://www.ucm.es/BUCM/revistas/ghi/05566533/articulos/REAA0505110133A.PDF On May 2, 2008, at 9:01 AM, Kier Salmon wrote: > On May 2, 2008, at 7:28 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > >> >> dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordenoo googlea >> con las palabras clave: pochtecas Tlateloco española >> > El enlace esta... comido... Faltan unas letras y digitos aqui y alla. > > Aqui esta uno que da el articulo: > > http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordeno. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From econtactt at hotmail.com Fri May 2 17:10:05 2008 From: econtactt at hotmail.com (Alberto Mendo) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 10:10:05 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Interpreter Message-ID: Hello Everyone, I received a request yesterday for a Nahuatl interpreter from the Martinez Superior Courthouse in Northern California. They are in dire need of an interpreter for a defendant in a criminal case. If anyone is interested or knows of someone who may be up for task, please contact me. Thanks, Alberto Mendo (510) 725-9801 _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_mobile_052008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tecvm at yahoo.com Fri May 2 16:11:30 2008 From: tecvm at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Diego_V=E1squez_Monterroso?=) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:11:30 -0700 Subject: Zuyua Message-ID: Hola a todos: Estoy investigando sobre las migraciones originarias en Mesoamérica y especialmente con relación al área de Zuyua. No sé si conocen alguna información al respecto, o mejor aun, algún libro sobre las migraciones (ya sean simbólicas, legitimadoras o reales). De antemano muchas gracias. Saludos, Diego Vásquez Monterroso Pensum cerrado en Arqueología Universidad del Valle de Guatemala ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Deportes Beta ¡No te pierdas lo último sobre el torneo clausura 2008! Entérate aquí http://deportes.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From claycarmouche at gmail.com Sat May 3 21:27:27 2008 From: claycarmouche at gmail.com (Clay Carmouche) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 17:27:27 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl translation for film Message-ID: Hello, I'm working with a film currently in production in Canada, which features Aztec characters. We have about 50 words, about 9 lines of dialog, to be translated into Nahuatl. I'm hoping someone on this list group can help or point me in the right direction. Unfortunately our deadline is rather tight. The film is already in production and the scene could come up any day. If anyone can help, please contact me anytime at 718.812.6624 or reply to claycarmouche at gmail.com Here's a link to a write up of our film: http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_thompson_nicola/kamloopsthisweek/entertainment/17587604.html Best Regards, Clay Carmouche _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue May 6 14:00:44 2008 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 10:00:44 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl word formation In-Reply-To: <20080501234635.qeo2jm0y2osgc44w@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: A very important cautionary tale, and for every language. My two centavos worth, Michael Quoting "Campbell, R Joe" : > Nocnihuan, > > One of features of Nahuatl that makes it fascinating to us is > the wealth of metaphors captured in its word formation. Words like > "acitlalin", 'dewdrop' (atl [water] - citlalin [star]) catch our > attention, please us like a well-formed phrase, and even make us > want to find more of them. > > One source of assistance in appreciating Nahuatl word formation > is J. Richard Andrews' _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_ (either > the first edition or the revised edition). It also presents us > with suggestions for analyses of words which should make us stop > and consider where sober analysis ends and where dubious > suggestions begin. > > One example is the suggestion that "te:na:nquilia:" 'he answers > someone' is derived from a source stem no longer extant, "*na:nca" > 'to act in the manner of a mother'. Most people would not object > to the idea of a productive stem which does not occur > independently (if there is no stem "xel(-li)", we might have a > difficult time accounting for "cuaxeltic", "xexeltic", "xelihui", > and "xeloa"). (A side remark: I am very wary of phrases like "no > longer" in the discussing the structure of a grammar, since I am > afraid that the user is *really* thinking of the historical > development of the language, rather than the grammar as it exists > at a given point in time.) > > "*na:nca" leaves us with two problems: > 1) we have no pattern of derivation to arrive at "te:na:nquilia:". > When we have derivations like "pi:tza" 'blow' > pi:tztli 'whistle, > something blown' > "nipi:tzoa" 'I use a whistle, I whistle', where > the processes are seen as parallel to the same processes in the > formation of other words, we have support for our trust in the > hypothesis, but here it is lacking. > 2) the semantic stretch between "mother" (i.e., act in the manner > of a mother") and "answer" *might* bear some weight if that link > were evident in other places in the language, but without that > support, one's willingness to believe fails. > > --- > > Another example is the suggestion that "te:lpo:chtli" is derived > from or related to "po:ca" 'it smokes'. Obviously, there are many > Nahuatl words with the string "po:ch" involving the application of > smoke, the act of incensing. ...but where is the semantic bridge > between "youth" and "incense". I admit that there may be one and I > would be happy to hear of credible evidence. > > --- > > These two examples are intended as an introduction to my main > topic: "ohuihcan" 'dangerous place' (and many other examples > involving danger and difficulty). In his first edition, Andrews > presented these words as being derived from an obsolete verb > "*ohuia" (note that I have abandoned long vowel marking). There > was no implication that "ohuia" might be divisable then, but in the > revised edition, the source for the well populated family of > "ohuia" word is "ohhuia" (ohtli-verb suffix) 'to be like a road, > to present danger'. > > Again, I can imagine that this is a possibility, but there is no > evidence elsewhere linking 'road' and 'danger'. Further, there is > no *clear* evidence of a "-huia" intransitive suffix meaning 'be'. > (One possibility: "coyohuia" 'they howl' [they are like coyotes]) > > It is very interesting that the element is no longer "ohuia", > but "ohhuia". While much of the material in Andrews' books rests > heavily on Carochi's grammar, his belief in the 'road' / 'danger' > relationship (without supporting parallels) motivates changing the > shape of the data. He points out that Carochi does not show a > glottal stop. But he changes his image of what the date is because > it fits his theory (based on a tightly stretched semantic > relationship). Granted, there is only one occurrence of a relevant > piece in Carochi's grammar (f53v). > > Obviously, I believe that when we describe the morphology of a > language, we should err on the side of caution. If we stretch the > semantic bridges too far, the overall description is fragile and I > worry about the expenditure of all that time on something too > easily collapsible. > > What do y'all think? > > Iztayohmeh, > > Joe > > p.s. references to Andrews are below... > > > ************* > > Andrews, revised edition > > p. 441 > ohhuihca = it is in the manner of a thing that has become > dangerous/difficult; i.e., with difficulty, with danger > > > p. 574 > ohhuia = to be like a road; i.e., to pose a danger; > to be dangerous/difficult > Carochi does not show a glottal stop closing the first syllable > > > p. 579 > ohhuiti = to have a road; i.e., to be in/face danger > Carochi does not show a glottal stop > > > *************** > > Andrews, first edition > > > p. 31 > In certain instances, the source verb is obsolete: > ohuihca* = with difficulty [Class C pret theme: > -(ohuih)0-. Compare the co-derived adjective ohuih, > "it is difficult"] > > p. 32 > The adverbials in *ca* may be negated by this procedure: > ayohuihca* ~ aohuihca* = easily, without difficulty > > p. 257 > Occasionally the source verb is no longer used: ohuih = it > is difficult [Compare (ohuih-0-ca*-yo*)-tl, "difficulty, > danger," and (ohuih-0-ca)-0, "with difficulty," both from the > same preterit theme. > > p. 322 > Itlah ohuih i*pan mochi*huaz. > = Something dangerous will happen to him. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu May 8 14:21:10 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:21:10 -0400 Subject: Diphrases Message-ID: As I age, I become forgetful. I was looking the other day for a fairly long list of the diphrases used in Nahuatl (atl + tepetl = altepetl) I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. Any clues? -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu May 8 15:26:01 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:26:01 -0500 Subject: Diphrases In-Reply-To: <48230C56.2050209@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Estimado Fritz: Apunto un pedacito de mi tesis con las referencias correspondientes. No sé si alguna de éstas sea la que tienes en mente. Saludos, David ****************************** Garibay (1999: 115, 116) define “difrasismo” como “un procedimiento que consiste en expresar una misma idea por medio de dos vocablos que se completan en el sentido, ya sea por ser sinónimos, ya por ser adyacentes”. Sobre los difrasismos en general y su uso en el idioma náhuatl, véanse Bright, 1990; Montes de Oca, 2001. Referencias: Garibay Kintana, Ángel María, Llave del náhuatl, colecciones de trozos clásicos, con gramática y vocabulario nahuatl-castellano, para utilidad de principiantes, 7a. ed., México, Editorial Porrúa, 1999. Bright, William, “‘With one lip, with two lips’: parallelism in Nahuatl”, en Language (Linguistic Society of America), vol. 66, no. 3, 1990, pp. 437-452. Montes de Oca, Mercedes, “Los difrasismos en el náhuatl: una aproximación lingüística”, en Avances y balances de lenguas yutoaztecas, homenaje a Wick R. Miller, José Luis Moctezuma Zamarrón y Jane H. Hill, editores, México, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 2001, pp. 387-397. ****************************** -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de John F. Schwaller Enviado el: jueves, 08 de mayo de 2008 09:21 Para: Nahuat-l ((messages)) Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Diphrases As I age, I become forgetful. I was looking the other day for a fairly long list of the diphrases used in Nahuatl (atl + tepetl cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. Any clues? _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu May 8 16:14:18 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:14:18 -0400 Subject: Diphrases Message-ID: (I accidentally sent this privately, but thought it would of general interest. Incidentally, I have since seen David's contribution and would note that his sources might be more accessible than Mercedes' thesis.) A clue: Mercedes Montes de Oca Vega, Los Difrasismos en el Nahuatl del Siglo XVI. (her thesis in 2000 at the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico) Joe p.s. ...play it Sam... you played it for her... you can play it for me. Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > > As I age, I become forgetful. I was looking the other day for a fairly > long list of the diphrases used in Nahuatl (atl + tepetl = altepetl) I > cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. > > Any clues? > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > ____ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Tlaloc at umd.edu Thu May 8 17:47:50 2008 From: Tlaloc at umd.edu (John B. Carlson) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 13:47:50 -0400 Subject: Diphrases In-Reply-To: <20080508121418.4apg32h4gsgcwgcg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, Joe and everyone, I am also very interested in this topic and have been for a long time. To add to the list, there was a good discussion with many examples in: Of the Manners of Speaking That the Old Ones Had: The Metaphors of Andres De Olmos in the Tulal Manuscript Arte Para Aprender LA Lengua Mexicana, 15 (Hardcover) by Judith M. Maxwell (Author), Craig A. Hanson (Author) # Hardcover: 438 pages # Publisher: Univ of Utah Pr (Tx) (December 1992) # Language: English # ISBN-10: 0874803691 # ISBN-13: 978-0874803693 Joe, Is there a good way to get a copy, in some form, of the Montes de Oca Vega thesis (2000)? Is it around or on line as a PDF? If so, I would love to get a copy. It sounds like a great resource and worthy of citation. Thanks, John At 12:14 PM -0400 5/8/08, Campbell, R Joe wrote: >(I accidentally sent this privately, but thought it would of general interest. >Incidentally, I have since seen David's contribution and would note >that his sources might be more accessible than Mercedes' thesis.) > >A clue: > >Mercedes Montes de Oca Vega, Los Difrasismos en el Nahuatl del Siglo XVI. >(her thesis in 2000 at the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico) > >Joe > >p.s. ...play it Sam... you played it for her... you can play it for me. > >Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > >> >> As I age, I become forgetful. I was looking the other day for a fairly >> long list of the diphrases used in Nahuatl (atl + tepetl = altepetl) I >> cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. >> >> Any clues? >> >> -- >> ***************************** >> John F. Schwaller >> President >> SUNY - Potsdam >> 44 Pierrepont Ave. >> Potsdam, NY 13676 >> Tel. 315-267-2100 >> FAX 315-267-2496 >> >> ____ > >_______________________________________________ >Nahuatl mailing list >Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -- ***************************************** John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director The Center for Archaeoastronomy P. O. Box "X" College Park, MD 20741-3022 USA (301) 864-6637 office {fax by arrangement} http://www.archaeoastronomy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu May 8 17:55:29 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 13:55:29 -0400 Subject: Diphrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Indeed. I just double checked. I think that I was remembering pp. 36-39 of Maxwell and Hanson. John B. Carlson wrote: > > > Fritz, Joe and everyone, > > I am also very interested in this topic and have been for a long time. > To add to the list, there was a good discussion with many examples in: > > Of the Manners of Speaking That the Old Ones Had: The Metaphors of > Andres De Olmos in the Tulal Manuscript Arte Para Aprender LA Lengua > Mexicana, 15 (Hardcover) > by Judith M. Maxwell (Author), Craig A. Hanson (Author) > > # Hardcover: 438 pages > # Publisher: Univ of Utah Pr (Tx) (December 1992) > # Language: English > # ISBN-10: 0874803691 > # ISBN-13: 978-0874803693 > >> >> > >> > ____ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > -- > > ***************************************** > > John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director > The Center for Archaeoastronomy > P. O. Box "X" > College Park, MD 20741-3022 USA > (301) 864-6637 office {fax by arrangement} > http://www.archaeoastronomy.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mercemo at correo.unam.mx Thu May 8 18:12:51 2008 From: mercemo at correo.unam.mx (Mar=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C3=ADa?= Montes) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 13:12:51 -0500 Subject: Diphrases In-Reply-To: <48233E91.5030201@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Hi My thesis is available in PDF in the UNAM web page but is available only to UNAM students and professors. I could try to send a copy if anyone is interested. Mercedes Montes de Oca p.s thanks Joe Mensaje citado por: "John F. Schwaller" : > Indeed. I just double checked. I think that I was remembering pp. > 36-39 of Maxwell and Hanson. > > > > John B. Carlson wrote: > > > > > > Fritz, Joe and everyone, > > > > I am also very interested in this topic and have been for a long time. > > > To add to the list, there was a good discussion with many examples > in: > > > > Of the Manners of Speaking That the Old Ones Had: The Metaphors of > > Andres De Olmos in the Tulal Manuscript Arte Para Aprender LA Lengua > > Mexicana, 15 (Hardcover) > > by Judith M. Maxwell (Author), Craig A. Hanson (Author) > > > > # Hardcover: 438 pages > > # Publisher: Univ of Utah Pr (Tx) (December 1992) > > # Language: English > > # ISBN-10: 0874803691 > > # ISBN-13: 978-0874803693 > > > >> > >> > > >> > ____ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > -- > > > > ***************************************** > > > > John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director > > The Center for Archaeoastronomy > > P. O. Box "X" > > College Park, MD 20741-3022 USA > > (301) 864-6637 office {fax by arrangement} > > http://www.archaeoastronomy.net > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > Dra. Mercedes Montes de Oca Vega Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas Circuito Mario e la Cueva s/n UNAM 04510 México, D.F Tel 56227489 FAX 56227495 ------------------------------------------------- www.correo.unam.mx UNAMonos Comunicándonos _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From anava_esp at yahoo.es Wed May 14 14:19:22 2008 From: anava_esp at yahoo.es (Atanacio Nava) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 07:19:22 -0700 Subject: Algo de poesa nahuatl Message-ID: Dear listeros, Aquí algo de poesía nahuatl http://revistaalternativa.org/numeros/no13/cd_nahuatl13.html Hasta pronto Nava ______________________________________________ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oenthomas at gmail.com Wed May 14 18:17:08 2008 From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 13:17:08 -0500 Subject: Searching for source. Message-ID: I would appreciate if anyone can tell me the source of the document from which I copy the introduction. I would like to use this file for teaching Nahuatk in English but I will need permission of the author to edit into English. Owen Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oenthomas at gmail.com Wed May 14 21:34:42 2008 From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 16:34:42 -0500 Subject: Searching for source. In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0805141117r2ba0c2e1p2e66176af1a66fe0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I would appreciate if anyone can tell me the source of the document from which I copy the introduction. I would like to use this file for teaching Nahuatk in English but I will need permission of the author to edit into English. This is the link to where I have placed the introduction to this unknown document: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d7b4c3p_96g94svpc8 I apologize for omitting the link in my first attempt. Owen Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oenthomas at gmail.com Thu May 15 12:36:51 2008 From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 07:36:51 -0500 Subject: helpidentify source of this lesson Message-ID: Listeros, I have a lesson captured from the web and want to know if it is copyrighted or who wrote it. Can anyone recognize the author? The beginning of first lesson is pasted: *#4. El sustantivo * puede tener una de las siguientes terminaciones: -tl, -tli, -li o -in. Se usarán los siguientes sustantivos en las primeras lecciones. Memorizar: amóxtli : libro ocuíllin : gusano átl : agua pétlatl :petate cálli : casa pílli niño cíhtli : abuela táhtli : padre cíhuatl : mujer tecólotl : buho cóatl : serpiente teopántli : iglesia cólli : abuel tepálcatl : loza comálli : cenicero tétl : piedra itzcuíntli : perro tianquíztli : mercado mázatl : venado tlácatl : hombre mécatl : cordón tlálli : tierra míchin : pescado tlaxcálli : tortilla nántli : madre tóchtli : conejo xálli : arena yétl : frijol *#5. * En las primeras lecciones también se utilizarán las palabras que siguen: ámo : no ípan : en, sobre cá : está ític : dentro de ¿cámpa? : ¿dónde? náhui : cuatro cáteh : están nícan : aquí cé : un, uno, una óme : dos íhuan : y ompa : allá ín : él, la quéma : sí ínin : este, esta yéyi : tres -- We are connected Look at this, http://oenthomas.blogspot.com Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Thu May 15 18:59:45 2008 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2 at cox.net) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:59:45 -0700 Subject: Danza Azteca online survey: Pass it on to any danzantes you may know.... THANKS!!!! Message-ID: Piali nohuampohuan, My name is Mario E. Aguilar and I am the Capitán of Danza Mexi'cayotl. I have been a danzante/musico indigena since 1973. I am working on my dissertation and I need your help. My dissertation is titled: La Danza Azteca: its roots, its arrival in Aztlan, and its impact on Chicano/a Identity and sacred space. I am trying to understand the many different reasons Chicanos/as become danzantes, and how it feels to be a danzante. Your answers will be confidential and I will not disclose to anyone any follow up correspondence/communication you may want with me Once you finish the survey, you will be eligible to participate in the optional raffle for two $50 gift certificates at the Cesár E. Chávez Foundation website: http://www.chavezfoundation.org/zencart/ Click here to start the survey: *https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=aVVIPQKT9H1kdOVGgusaog_3d_3d* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Sat May 17 20:37:28 2008 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 15:37:28 -0500 Subject: Advice on jobsearch in Mexico requested Message-ID: Hi Listers I have recently graduated with an MA in Mesoamerican cultures and linguistics from the University of Copenhagen, specialising in Classical Nahuatl and modern Morelos Nahuatl. Now my wife and I have decided to settle in Mexico, her patria. I have spent time doing fieldwork in Mexico, but the jobmarket here is all new to me, and I don't kno how to begi looking. I assume that just showing up at the doorsep of an educational institution with a diploma is not the correct way to do it. However, I know that some of you who follow the list are foreigners working in Mexico and I'd appreciate any advice you might have as to how a nahuatlatoh hunts down a job here. Regards Magnus Parao Hasen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Sat May 17 21:35:30 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 14:35:30 -0700 Subject: Advice on jobsearch in Mexico requested In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I lived in Mexico. Grew up there as a foreign national. You need an FM2, and as you are married to a mexican woman, then you might get it early. Most of us have to live 5 years in the country without working to get the FM2. You cannot work without the FM2 unless the hiring agency petitions for a special job permit in which they must show that you have abilities without which they cannot function and that aren't obtainable from the present job pool of mexicans. So, when you go looking for a job... you can apply!... just make sure they understand you are "tramitando mi FM2" and that you will have to be hired with all the work that Gebernación demands from the hiring agency. Headcount with salary ranges and a few other documents. So, you can job hunt and look and interview, but only accept if Gobernación gives you the go ahead. And if you have kids, register them at once for their FM2. I have a friend who was born in the US and her parents took her in on a tourist visa and never regularized her status. After four years of university work 15 years later she was denied her "titulo" because as a foreigner she had obtained her education fradulently. Foreigners pay more for the universities. Get the kids regularized both from your country and theirs... it's really important. Also, check the restrictions. Probably won't matter to you; but still is a good idea to KNOW what they are. As I recall, foreigners are not allowed to work in teh restaurant industry... or the sex trade. (Item, in my days prostitution was legal, "leocinio" pimping was not.) On May 17, 2008, at 1:37 PM, magnus hansen wrote: > Hi Listers > > I have recently graduated with an MA in Mesoamerican cultures and > linguistics from the University of Copenhagen, specialising in > Classical Nahuatl and modern Morelos Nahuatl. Now my wife and I have > decided to settle in Mexico, her patria. I have spent time doing > fieldwork in Mexico, but the jobmarket here is all new to me, and I > don't kno how to begi looking. I assume that just showing up at the > doorsep of an educational institution with a diploma is not the > correct way to do it. However, I know that some of you who follow > the list are foreigners working in Mexico and I'd appreciate any > advice you might have as to how a nahuatlatoh hunts down a job here. > > Regards > > Magnus Parao Hasen > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dgloster at web.de Tue May 20 14:38:41 2008 From: dgloster at web.de (dgloster at web.de) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 16:38:41 +0200 Subject: helpidentify source of this lesson Message-ID: Dear Owen, I found the PDF document on the internet (Google search for first line). It was on the website of the University of Bologna, Italy homepage: http://www.facli.unibo.it/Lingue/default.htm After a right mouse click on the document, and the link "document properties" the author of the document is identified as: Giovanni Marchetti a professor in the department of Modern Foreign Languages and Literature. Here's the link with his details (address, phone no., etc): http://www.unibo.it/Portale/Strumenti+del+Portale/Cerca/paginaWebDocente.htm?UPN=giovanni.marchetti at unibo.it He apparently conducts courses in Spanish (in case you don't speak Italian and he doesn't speak English!) I hope this gets you a bit further. Best regards, David Gloster Unterhaching, near Munich, Germany -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: "Owen Thomas" Gesendet: 15.05.08 14:43:09 An: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Betreff: [Nahuat-l] helpidentify source of this lesson Listeros, I have a lesson captured from the web and want to know if it is copyrighted or who wrote it. Can anyone recognize the author? The beginning of first lesson is pasted: *#4. El sustantivo * puede tener una de las siguientes terminaciones: -tl, -tli, -li o -in. Se usarán los siguientes sustantivos en las primeras lecciones. Memorizar: amóxtli : libro ocuíllin : gusano átl : agua pétlatl :petate cálli : casa pílli niño cíhtli : abuela táhtli : padre cíhuatl : mujer tecólotl : buho cóatl : serpiente teopántli : iglesia cólli : abuel tepálcatl : loza comálli : cenicero tétl : piedra itzcuíntli : perro tianquíztli : mercado mázatl : venado tlácatl : hombre mécatl : cordón tlálli : tierra míchin : pescado tlaxcálli : tortilla nántli : madre tóchtli : conejo xálli : arena yétl : frijol *#5. * En las primeras lecciones también se utilizarán las palabras que siguen: ámo : no ípan : en, sobre cá : está ític : dentro de ¿cámpa? : ¿dónde? náhui : cuatro cáteh : están nícan : aquí cé : un, uno, una óme : dos íhuan : y ompa : allá ín : él, la quéma : sí ínin : este, esta yéyi : tres -- We are connected Look at this, http://oenthomas.blogspot.com Owen_______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/ nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: David Gloster.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 267 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From david_becraft at hotmail.com Tue May 20 15:52:39 2008 From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 08:52:39 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: <3E7F3FED-0119-1000-F3BD-6EB30AC8BA66-Webmail-10012@mac.com> Message-ID: Listeros, I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? Pancho ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > Listeros. > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been decapitated. > > Living in Peru has the story here; > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?sourceîaterGood _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Tue May 20 16:21:51 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 09:21:51 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I understand it pieces of the body were distributed to the warriors who caught them and the bones were hung in individual houses. Other corpses were thrown into the lake. The lake was a very active ecosystem and it took the massive plagues of 1521 to oveyrwhealm it with bodies. Therefore there wouldn't have been mass grave dumps like we see in modern genocidal atrocities. If I recall correctly the heads were hung by a specific lock of hair until they rotted out, boiled and stacked along the pyramid sides, exposed to the elements. I will go out on a limb here and do a thought experiment: I think that when the temples were rebuilt (which happened every 30-50 years) the bones and skulls were ground up and used to make the new temple. I'm not sure how much material would be identifiable from 2000, 1500, 500 years ago to tell us how many skulls and bones were used in the mortar. The mass sacrifices have caused controversy back and forth for centuries, now. I've read that the aztecs just used round numbers and didn't really sacrifice the numbers in the codices (in defiance to the very precise numbers used in surveying and tribute!) I've read that we should trust both the old priests (who were notorious for re- writing the histories and burning the old books) and trust the new priests, who very much wanted to show how necessary the whole christian conversion thing was and that we should bring logic to the question. So using logic... Tenochtitlan was an island, heavily-densely populated. I've seen the pictures of the wrapped dead and read that they were each buried under the hearth of the small houses. (No concept of graveyards.) The nobles were burned or interred under their palaces in small chambers. So no cemeteries as we would recognize them today, and the idea that the dead should be buried by their families. THey also had this idea that the sacrifice was unfortunate and couldn't escape his fate to die far from his home. Lack of buriel would probably be a logical consequence of that thought process. Where would they *bury* the bodies? And why? Another point to the logic level is the lack of digging tools. They had wood, flint and stone. Digging the hard, stoney earth of México with just those is quite a labor. Would they dig pits to hurl their dead sacrifices into, all that labor? Maybe, but with the lake right there and the codices making it clear that the captor of the sacrifice had the right to certain body parts and the use of the thighbones hanging in the houses as protective charms for the man in battle, I can't see a need for graves. Or any way to substantiate or discredit the numbers the source documents quote. On May 20, 2008, at 8:52 AM, David Becraft wrote: > > > Listeros, > > I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence > supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to > 1521. Have there been any major archaeological findings that have > uncovered the number of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in > the hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions. I know that there > have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but has the number ever been > higher than a thousand? > > Pancho > > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 >> From: michaelruggeri at mac.com >> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA >> >> >> >> Listeros. >> >> 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient >> urban area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are >> sacrificed individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. >> One had been decapitated. >> >> Living in Peru has the story here; >> http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site >> >> >> Mike Ruggeri >> >> >> Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links >> http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html >> _______________________________________________ >> Aztlan mailing list >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan >> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >> Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?sourceîaterGood > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gregory_sandor at hotmail.com Tue May 20 17:04:12 2008 From: gregory_sandor at hotmail.com (Greg Sandor) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:04:12 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Message-ID: Is there a way to determine from the chemical composition of lime in mortar whether it was made from human bones? Regards, Greg (614) 517-7204 greg at gregsandor.com http://www.gregsandor.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Becraft" To: "MICHAEL RUGGERI" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Listeros, I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? Pancho ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > Listeros. > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban > area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed > individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been > decapitated. > > Living in Peru has the story here; > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source_______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Tue May 20 17:08:06 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:08:06 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't lime caustic? The only way to determine it would be if human bone had a different calcium ratio to sea shells or animal bone or DNA. If lime is caustic then there is little chance enough DNA survived to make the distinction. On May 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Greg Sandor wrote: > Is there a way to determine from the chemical composition of lime in > mortar > whether it was made from human bones? > > Regards, > > Greg > > (614) 517-7204 > greg at gregsandor.com > http://www.gregsandor.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Becraft" > To: "MICHAEL RUGGERI" ; >; > > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT > BANDURRIA > > > > > Listeros, > > I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence > supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to > 1521. Have > there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the > number > of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of > thousands, or > maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 > or so, > but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? > > Pancho > > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 >> From: michaelruggeri at mac.com >> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA >> >> >> >> Listeros. >> >> 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient >> urban >> area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed >> individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been >> decapitated. >> >> Living in Peru has the story here; >> http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site >> >> >> Mike Ruggeri >> >> >> Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links >> http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html >> _______________________________________________ >> Aztlan mailing list >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan >> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >> Click to view Calendar of Events >> http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source_______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From bortiz at earthlink.net Tue May 20 17:38:59 2008 From: bortiz at earthlink.net (bernard Ortiz de Montellano) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:38:59 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Message-ID: N�j����ޭ����jw��h�謙�^~�&q�\�驆�)��^�X�z)梻Z�+jW"�hrv�1�����j�����:���v�1�,j�����Z��z���j'�O�jY�����w�����'����m��M<��<<�ӣ�z���+� ނ���Ƨv����fj)�r���'���nj���+-��ښ�����k;ej��l����/�� !��Ta#��r��������f���&��n7���^��Z���_�;ej �����,��y���z׫�)�~�&����q�\�jh�+b�z�)������j����������^~�&�隝�'z�����z�v����ƭ������^��^��m8��+z��,jwh��(�������0��+z ��+��&�����ή("��Lz��������Z���j���+i���֯���y��~��ٚ�_ܢo��:��� EA���h������ z�����r������V��X����jk"���������j��_��l����/���'����z�Z���m��M<�_����+���-���֡��������Z��  ! ��T� ܅����25�,jwK�y,�������(�k������n����N�b������_̊G��� X���z�)��Z��,j���Z��b���}����+��� X���/��jW�u��|Kޞ����m������y�܇�ښ����?z����޽���a���������������������������������������������������������������~���+y�^� (w�h�{az/��b'�ؚ�+�~�&2'+�������i����b��ܢo�z�����?&���7�j�m��)��(���������������������������������������֡��e����x%����֡��e�X����jk"�����m���� 0����/��j)fj��b��?��nj�����������������������������������������5�nj�fj)b� b���5�nj���+-��ښ������m���� �}����+����Y���b�ا~��j��_����������������������������������������j��Y��X��X���Z�歗�b���}����+��m���� 0����/��j)fj��b��?��nj�������������������������������������Z�歖f��)�+-5�nj���+-��ښ����!�����0��ښ����?�������+-�w��v���e From k_salmon at ipinc.net Tue May 20 17:43:13 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:43:13 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: <12873164.1211305140145.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: So it would be possible with a chemical analysis to determine if human bone content is around the templo mayor. On the other hand, given the slaughter and illness in the last days, would it be possible to distinguish layers by date? On May 20, 2008, at 10:38 AM, bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote: > They are different subtances, Bone is made from calcium phosphate, > lime in mortar is calcium hydroxide. > > Bernard > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Kier Salmon >> Sent: May 20, 2008 1:08 PM >> To: Greg Sandor >> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org, aztlan at lists.famsi.org, MICHAEL >> RUGGERI >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT >> BANDURRIA >> >> Isn't lime caustic? The only way to determine it would be if human >> bone had a different calcium ratio to sea shells or animal bone or >> DNA. If lime is caustic then there is little chance enough DNA >> survived to make the distinction. >> >> >> On May 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Greg Sandor wrote: >> >>> Is there a way to determine from the chemical composition of lime in >>> mortar >>> whether it was made from human bones? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> (614) 517-7204 >>> greg at gregsandor.com >>> http://www.gregsandor.com >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "David Becraft" >>> To: "MICHAEL RUGGERI" ; >>> ; >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT >>> BANDURRIA >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Listeros, >>> >>> I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence >>> supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to >>> 1521. Have >>> there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the >>> number >>> of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of >>> thousands, or >>> maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 >>> or so, >>> but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? >>> >>> Pancho >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>>> Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 >>>> From: michaelruggeri at mac.com >>>> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >>>> Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Listeros. >>>> >>>> 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient >>>> urban >>>> area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed >>>> individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had >>>> been >>>> decapitated. >>>> >>>> Living in Peru has the story here; >>>> http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Ruggeri >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links >>>> http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aztlan mailing list >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan >>>> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >>>> Click to view Calendar of Events >>>> http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> E-mail for the greater good. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. >>> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source_______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue May 20 18:11:22 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:11:22 -0500 Subject: Sacrificed individuals Message-ID: On May 20, 2008, at 10:38 AM, bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote: > They are different subtances, Bone is made from calcium phosphate, > lime in mortar is calcium hydroxide. > > Bernard Limestone and seashells (the latter used at the Maya ruins at Comalcalco) are calcium carbonate, which is heated to produce quicklime (calcium oxide). The quicklime is slaked under water to produce lime mortar (calcium hydroxide). When the mortar sets it becomes stucco (calcium carbonate again; the cycle is complete). Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From huehueteot at aol.com Tue May 20 18:18:52 2008 From: huehueteot at aol.com (huehueteot at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 14:18:52 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David and all: I have seen discussions about the Tzompantli or skull rack that was described at the time of the Conquest (I know the Spaniards had plenty of reasons to lie about what they saw) as having anywhere from 100,000 to 300,000 skulls in it.? The descriptions of the dedication of the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan (regardless of what you think of the actual statistics) lasted for a multi day period and during that the sacrificing went on 24/7.? I don't know that there is any way to find what the actual numbers were but they were not minuscule. Cheers, Hugh G. "Sam" Ball And remember: "This too Shall Pass! -----Original Message----- From: David Becraft To: MICHAEL RUGGERI ; aztlan at lists.famsi.org; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tue, 20 May 2008 9:52 am Subject: Re: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Listeros, I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? Pancho ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > Listeros. > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been decapitated. > > Living in Peru has the story here; > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ GreaterGood _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gregory_sandor at hotmail.com Tue May 20 19:00:52 2008 From: gregory_sandor at hotmail.com (Greg Sandor) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:00:52 -0400 Subject: Sacrificed individuals Message-ID: So would the prescense of calcium phosphate in mortar indicate bone? On May 20, 2008, at 10:38 AM, bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote: > They are different subtances, Bone is made from calcium phosphate, > lime in mortar is calcium hydroxide. > > Bernard Limestone and seashells (the latter used at the Maya ruins at Comalcalco) are calcium carbonate, which is heated to produce quicklime (calcium oxide). The quicklime is slaked under water to produce lime mortar (calcium hydroxide). When the mortar sets it becomes stucco (calcium carbonate again; the cycle is complete). Saludos, David Wright ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue May 20 18:53:40 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:53:40 -0500 Subject: Turquoise diadem Message-ID: Listeros: I’m editing a volume of conference proceedings. At the risk of ruffling some feathers, I’m applying a unified orthography to all of the words in Nahuatl. One paper is about the royal turquoise diadem. The author calls it xiuhuitzolli. I can’t use this spelling because of the uhu secuence, considering that hu and uh are digraphs for /w/, and u alone is either an allophone of /o/ or /w/ written without the h. I can’t find this náhuatl word in the Sahagun texts, which are usually so good about naming articles of clothing, adornments, insignia and attributes. Simeon gives xiuhuitzolli. Seler uses this term, with the same spelling, in a few articles. So I’ve been on the horns of a dilemma, stuck between xiuhhuitzolli and xihuitzolli. The first one, xiuhhuitzolli, following Simeon’s flawed etymology of xihuitl (turquoise) (minus the -tl suffix minus the weak “i”) + huitzo (spiny thing, which Simeon thought was an adjective) doesn’t really work, because of the -li suffix; the root would have to be huitzol, which I don’t find anywhere; with huitzo (or huitzoh) the suffix would have to be -tl (or -tli). The second, xihuitzolli (xihuitzo:lli) seems more reasonable. Wolf uses it in his comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary, basing his entry on Simeon’s but fixing the weird spelling. Andrews, in the workbook of the second edition of his grammar, includes a noun tzo:lli with a meaning similar to Molina’s gloss of the verb tzoloa (tzo:loa:) (“estrechar o ensangostar algo”). I haven’t found tzo:lli standing alone anywhere else. I’m thinking now that I’ll change the spelling to xihuitzolli and add an editor’s note explaining why. Of course the author will have the final decision, but I thought I’d run this by the experts at Nahuat-l first. My biggest remaining doubt concerns the relation of the hypothetical noun tzo:lli to the verb tzo:loa:. Following the usual process of derivation, a noun derived from tzo:loa: should be tzo:lo:lli: (tzo:loa: minus a:) (o lengthens to o: to compensate for loss of long vowel a:) + (passive voice suffix -lo: minus o:) plus absolutive suffix -li = tzo:lo:lli. An analogous process can be seen in the deverbal noun tlahcuilo:lli (“something written/painted”), derived from the verb tlahcuiloa: (write/paint something) (tla plus ihcuiloa: minus weak initial i). Thanks for bearing with me this far. My two main questions are: (1) Can anyone give me a reference for an early colonial period use of any nahuatl word for the turquoise diadem? (2) What about tzo:lli as a noun related to tzo:loa:, in spite of the omission of the expected syllable lo:? Are there similar cases? Thanks, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue May 20 19:00:02 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 14:00:02 -0500 Subject: Sacrificed individuals Message-ID: > So would the prescense of calcium phosphate in mortar indicate bone? We need a specialist here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From blobjois at gmail.com Tue May 20 19:03:37 2008 From: blobjois at gmail.com (Bertrand Lobjois) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 14:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: <8CA88BD1730481E-FC0-10B@webmail-nd18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: *There are two specialists about the aztec sacrifice : * 1. *Michel Graulich who recently published "The Human Sacrifice among the Aztecs" (2005). The (french) book was translated to spanish.* 2. *Yollotl Gonzales who proposed a re-edition of her book last year (2007).* *You can get them easily on Amazon... Bertrand* 2008/5/20 : > > David and all: > > I have seen discussions about the Tzompantli or skull rack that was > described at the time of the Conquest (I know the Spaniards had plenty of > reasons to lie about what they saw) as having anywhere from 100,000 to > 300,000 skulls in it.? The descriptions of the dedication of the Templo > Mayor in Tenochtitlan (regardless of what you think of the actual > statistics) lasted for a multi day period and during that the sacrificing > went on 24/7.? I don't know that there is any way to find what the actual > numbers were but they were not minuscule. > > Cheers, > > > > > > Hugh G. "Sam" Ball > > And remember: > > "This too Shall Pass! > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Becraft > To: MICHAEL RUGGERI ; aztlan at lists.famsi.org; > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Sent: Tue, 20 May 2008 9:52 am > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > > > > > > > > > > Listeros, > > I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence > supporting > the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have there been > any > major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number of people > sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or maybe > millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but > has the > number ever been higher than a thousand? > > Pancho > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > > > > > Listeros. > > > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban > area > in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed individuals. > Parts of > skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been decapitated. > > > > Living in Peru has the story here; > > > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > > > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > > Aztlan mailing list > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > Click to view Calendar of Events > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_GreaterGood > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > > -- http://cacalotl.blogspot.com Un blog archéologique en français sur la Mésoamérique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue May 20 22:54:08 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 17:54:08 -0500 Subject: Turquiose diadem Message-ID: P.S. Here’s a reference to the turquoise diadem from the Florentine Codex (vol. 1, libro 2, capitulo 37, f. 154v [vol. pagination], f. 100v [book pagination]; Dibble & Anderson, book 2, p. 164). “[...] ocontlali xiuhvitzolli, in tlatocaiotl”. So Sahagun’s Nahuatl-speaking scholars give the same spelling as Simeon and Seler; of course, the v is an allograph of the graph (letter) u, in this case representing the semiconsonant /w/. The next question is how the Sahagun people used the sequence uhu in other contexts. A search in Joe Campbell’s Florentine Codex Vocabulary for the string uhu only turns up “cuauhuitztli. thorn stick”. Joe has standardized spelling here, so I suspect that this is an oversight and should be cuauhhuitztli (/kwawwitstli/). Here uhu is /ww/. Another search, this time in Marc Eisinger’s Index Lexical du texte Nahuatl du Codex de Florence (on Sup-Infor), produces a short list: juhuj, quauhuitztli, quitecozauhuia, tlayiauhujlli, tlatlacuhujtectli, xiuhuitzili. The j’s, of course, can be written as i’s, being allographs of the same graph (letter) in the Nahuatl texts of the Florentine Codex. The first one, iuhui, is interesting, as it appears that the intent was to write the particle ihui (“thus, like, in this manner”). This would support the possibility that “xiuhuitzolli” was written to express the word xihuitzolli, since in one other instance the graphic sequence iuhui seems to express the phonemic sequence /iwi/, rather than /iwwi/. The word “iuhui” appears in this phrase: “yn iuhui cencan quitocatiuh” (vol. 1, libro 1, capítulo 12, f. 21r [vol.], f. 9r [libro]; Dibble & Anderson, book 1, p. 25 [last line]). On the other hand, in the list from Eisinger, uhu usually appears in words with the phonemic sequence /ww/, so I can’t rule out xiuhhuitzolli. Can anyone see a way to break down xiuhhuitzolli into a meaningful compound noun? I still think I should go with xihuitzolli, but I’m swimming upstream here, against hallowed tradition, so I’m making a last effort to conform. - David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed May 21 05:41:59 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 01:41:59 -0400 Subject: Turquiose diadem comment 1 In-Reply-To: <343E172F57404746BA52DEBFC301D975@DW1> Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: david01.doc Type: application/msword Size: 3700 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed May 21 05:43:04 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 01:43:04 -0400 Subject: Turquiose diadem comment 2 In-Reply-To: <343E172F57404746BA52DEBFC301D975@DW1> Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: david03.doc Type: application/msword Size: 17051 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk Tue May 20 21:53:00 2008 From: wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk (wswilcox) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 22:53:00 +0100 Subject: turquoise diadem Message-ID: Molina has xiuhuitzolli, crown with precious stones. This has to be xiuh-uitzolli, since he always uses simple u/v for w- (and -uh for -w) A verb huitzoa is attested in yacauitzoa - to sharpen a point. This would give huitzo:lli for something pointed, presumably also something with points, i.e. a crown -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From poe at sonoma.edu Wed May 21 04:14:35 2008 From: poe at sonoma.edu (Wm. Clay Poe) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 21:14:35 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quicklime (CaO) is produced by heating Calcium carbonate (CaCO3), to about 700 degrees centigrade at which point the CaCO3 dissociates into CaO and CO2. When the CaO is slaked, mixed with water, it hydrates and becomes Calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2. Over time the Calcium hydroxide absorbs CO2 from the atmosphere and becomes, once again, Calcium carbonate. This process takes a very long time to complete and gives rise to comments about the superior hardness of Roman cement. You just need to give it a couple of thousand years. Human bone is mostly Calcium phosphate. Only about 7% is Calcium carbonate. Human bone would not be a good choice for the source of quicklime. Regards, Bill Wm. Clay Poe, Ph.D., RPA Professor of Archaeology Sonoma State University Rohnert Park, CA 94928 (707) 480-9251 -----Original Message----- From: Greg Sandor [mailto:gregory_sandor at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 10:04 AM To: David Becraft; MICHAEL RUGGERI; aztlan at lists.famsi.org; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Aztlan] [Nahuat-l] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Is there a way to determine from the chemical composition of lime in mortar whether it was made from human bones? Regards, Greg (614) 517-7204 greg at gregsandor.com http://www.gregsandor.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Becraft" To: "MICHAEL RUGGERI" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Listeros, I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? Pancho ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > Listeros. > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban > area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed > individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been > decapitated. > > Living in Peru has the story here; > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-rema ins-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=L_WL_ GreaterGood _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed May 21 15:18:06 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 10:18:06 -0500 Subject: turquoise diadem In-Reply-To: <1B7AA4FF56B246A2ACFAE02DEAD23F99@WILLY1> Message-ID: Huitzoa. Thanks, that's great. I knew somebody would come up with something good. I just went through the "xiu..." section of Molina's 1571 mexicano-castellano vocabulary (several times) and the "corona" parts of the 1555 and 1571 castellano-mexicano vocabularies without finding xiuhuitzolli. Can you point me in the right direction? His Arte perhaps? _____ De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de wswilcox Enviado el: martes, 20 de mayo de 2008 16:53 Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] turquoise diadem Molina has xiuhuitzolli, crown with precious stones. This has to be xiuh-uitzolli, since he always uses simple u/v for w- (and -uh for -w) A verb huitzoa is attested in yacauitzoa - to sharpen a point. This would give huitzo:lli for something pointed, presumably also something with points, i.e. a crown -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed May 21 19:04:47 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 15:04:47 -0400 Subject: Turquoise diadem comment 1 (repeat) In-Reply-To: <20080521014159.ytc1ze7ncws4skcs@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Nocnihuan, This is a repeat of the first of my previous messages, which I accidentally sent as an attachment. This should be easier to handle. I will do the same with Comment 2. ************************************ David, Your "turquoise diadem" problem lit up my interest, first because of the "tzol", but the /w/ + /w/ issue is more general, so, con tu permiso, I'll go there first. Just some background from Andrews (revised edition): (I'll use ':' for vowel length) p. 36: /w/ + /w/ > [w] The first /w/, which is voiceless, is lost. cua:uh- + -huah > cua:huah p. 120: my eagles nocua:hua:n [for no-cua:uh-hua:n rjc] p. 375: cuauh-hua:-tz-a-l-li (no comment on pronunciation, or, for that matter, no comment on proper spelling, since the point of the example is to show the structure of the word) p. 469: cuauhhua:tzaltzonco [also spelled cuahua:tzaltzonco] -- Andrews comment - - - - - - - - - If the non-hyphenated words represent a suggested spelling, then it is not clear that Andrews would insist on *phonetic* spelling. Since pronunciation tends to vary over the several places that a language is spoken, it would be chaotic to have a spelling system for each dialect, varying from village to village, merely because of minor phonetic differences. The ideal spelling system is at least phonological (phonemic), even morphophonemic (making the morphological structure more clear). If it is true that a sequence of two /w/'s reduced phonetically to a single [w], it would not be wise to take this reduction into account in spelling, since that would mean that nitecuauhhuitequi (dar de palos) and nitecuahuitequi (descalabrar) would not be distinguished in spelling, even though one word involved the morpheme 'cuahuitl' and the other 'cua:itl'. Obviously, it would still be possible to spell sequences of /ww/ either as 'uhhu' or 'uhu', since 'uhu' is unambiguous. Since the 'hu' represents /w/, the syllable-final 'u' (e.g., nitecuauhuitequi) would clearly represent a preceding /w/. This should cause no more confusion than the slight early problem when students are faced with: nitlahuichuia (I hoe with a huictli) nitlaneuchuia (I sweeten something) Their acceptance that 'hu' spells /w/ is enough to make it unambiguous that the phoneme preceding the /w/ is /k/ and /kw/, respectively. --They stop seeing 'ch' as a unit. David, taking your suggestion, I searched some of the relevant data in the Molina/Florentine material. In spite of the logical *possibility* of a 'uhu' spelling, I agree with you that the 'uhhu' spelling is preferable, but it was obvious in my search -that- some chaos reigns there, but I intend to mend my ways. Below, I have listed some relevant examples from Molina. My regularized forms are on the left and Molina's original forms are on the right. His prefixes are marked with an 'The location of his entries are given with folio number and column. M1 M5 cuacuauhhuia, nite-: quaquauhuia cornada dar cuacuauhhuiliztli, te-: tequaquauhuiliztli. 71m1-30v1 cornada de toro o de cosa semejante cuauhhuaqui, ni-: quauhuaqui magrecerse, pararse flaco cuauhhuatzalli: quauhuatzalli. 55m-154r le¤a seca para quemar cuauhhuitequiliztli, tla-: tlaquauh uitequiliztli. 55m-231r tala cuauhhuitzmecatl: quauitzmecatl. 55m-61r zarza cuauhhuitztli: quauhuitztli. 71m2-87v2 cierto abrojo Saludos, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed May 21 19:07:59 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 15:07:59 -0400 Subject: Turquiose diadem comment 2 - repeat In-Reply-To: <20080521014159.ytc1ze7ncws4skcs@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: repeat comment 2 ***************** David, My interest in 'tzo:lli' is partly because of an issue that you raised -- that it fails to appear as an independent word. The material below is what I have collected on 'tzo:lli' and it clearly has lots of holes in it. One very large hole is any claim that it might have of semantic unity. That aside, I think that there is a widespread notion that a candidate for what might seem to be a noun(-like) morpheme is disqualified if we can't find it occurring as an independent word. A friend of mine and I have discussed a particular example of this at length. If you examine Molina's three dictionaries, looking for the word 'chantli', you might come away disappointed, since it isn't there. (By the way, when I "name" a noun morpheme and include its absolutive suffix, I really do understand that the morpheme in "tla:catl" is really "tla:ca", but I think that most people are more comfortable with the familiar label that includes the suffix.) My friend noted the absence of "chantli" in Molina and, further, that it never occurs in discourse in the Florentine Codex -- its single occurrence is as a paragraph title in Book 11 (p. 275). Of course, we were faced with abundant evidence that there *had* to be a noun behind the following: ichan. his home; his house. inchan. their land. tochan. our home, our house. techan. casa; morada; o casa agena; naturaleza; tierra de donde es alguno. chanchihua. he makes his home; it makes its home. chaneh. due¤o de casa. atlan chaneh. pescado generalmente. huehca chaneh. aduenedizo; estra¤o o estrangero; natural de otra tierra. mochantia. it dwells, it provides itself with a home; it lives; it makes its home; it nests; it makes a home for itself; they nest. ninochantia. morada hazer. ichantlaca. his household members; his household. mochantlalia. he establishes a home; it makes itself a home. chantlatquitl. alhajas; alhajas de casa. amochantzinco. your [H., pl.] home. Of course, we know that some morphemes simply don't occur independently because of their basic nature: -tin noun plural suffix -meh noun plural suffix ni- 1st singular subject prefix -h subject plural suffix (ancho:cah) -ihui and -ahui verbers which derive verbs from nouns (a:calihui from a:calli) -oa verber which derives verbs from nouns (nitamaloa < tamalli) However, since derivation from nouns normally involves a noun which *does* occur independently, we become spoiled. If we fail to find the independent noun, like a rock in our path, we somehow feel guilty to propose the obvious nounstem... perhaps because we have seen others engage in this "hocus pocus" linguistics. There was a time, decades ago, when linguistics aspired to be a science, but now, even though that might seem to be an unrealistic goal, there are certainly areas of language description where the "what if" approach is valid, in a way vaguely parallel to the mental activity of the first people who conceived the structure of the benzene ring. I'm not suggesting that we all engage in wild-eyed "what if" activity and call it research. The "what if" may be the spark that points us in some direction of analysis, but the final product of a given area of morphology has to stand up to our tests of consistency and credibility. "tzo:lli" is only of a group of noun-like stems which undergo verbing in the same way as "chi:lli" (chi:lihui) or verbing plus further derivative processes like "tli:lli" (tli:ltic). Some others are nolli, tzelli, xelli, za:lli, and xacualli. Anyway, here are my notes on "tzo:lli". The only thing that isn't given in the list is my doubt about the overall unity. Saludos, Joe p.s. The "b. ... f. ..." notations refer to books of the Florentine and to my file numbers. *tzo:lli *** amatzotzolli. scrap of paper. . b.2 f.9 centlamatzolli. pu¤o o pu¤ado lo que alli cabe como de cosas de mayz o otras semillas; vn pu¤o o pu¤ado de garuanzos o de cosa semejante. . 55m-16 centlamatzololi. handful. . b.11 f.13 centlamatzololli. pu¤o o pu¤ado lo que alli cabe,como de cosas de mayz o otras semillas; vn pu¤o o pu¤ado de garuanzos o de cosa semejante. . 71m1-18 chiantzotzol. wrinkled chia. . b.2 f.2 chiantzotzolatolli. atole made with wrinkled chia. . b.4 f.11 chiantzotzollo. having wrinkled chia. . b.8 f.2 chichihualayotl . 71m1-16 chientzotzol. wrinkled chia. e>. b.9 f.4 chientzotzoleh. owner of wrinkled chia. e>. b.10 f.4 chientzotzolli. wrinkled chia. . b.10 f.9 chientzotzolnamacac. one who sells wrinkled chia. e>. b.10 f.4 cocohtzoltic. el que tiene estrecho gaznate, y a esta causa come poco a poco. . 71m1-9 cotztzotzol , to-. flabbiness of the calf of our leg. tztz>. b.10 f.7 coyameeltzotzolli. papada de puerco. . 55m-15 cuacuammatzoltic. having antlers like tree branches. mm>. b.11 f.2 cuanmatzoltic. having tapering branches. . b.11 f.11 cuitlatzol. floxo por negligencia; perezosa cosa; perezoso muy descuidado y negligentisimo. . 55m-10 cuitlatzol , ti-. you are lazy. . b.6 f.10 cuitlatzol 15 cuitlatzol. lazy; lazy person; listless. . b.10 f.2 cuitlatzolli. perezoso muy descuidado y negligentisimo. . 71m1-17 cuitlatzollotl. afloxamiento assi (assi is afloxar emperezando); pereza. ll>. 55m-00 cuitlatzoltitinemi ti1-nemi aux01>. 55m-00 cuitlatzolyotl. floxedad assi o negligencia (assi is floxo por negligencia). . 55m-10 eltzotzol , t[o]-. flabbiness of our chest; flabbiness of our breast. . b.10 f.6 eltzotzol Êmetl i. papada de puerco. . 71m2-4 eltzotzolli. vbre de puerca parida o de vaca. . 55m-19 eltzotzolli. flabbiness of the chest. . b.10 f.7 huexoloeltzotzolli. papada de gallo. . 55m-15 ihtetzotzolli. bajo del vientre. . 55m-1 ihtitzotzol , t[o]-. flabbiness of our abdomen. . b.10 f.7 ihtitzotzolli. flabbiness of the stomach. . b.10 f.6 iixtzotzoliuhca. nata de leche, o de cosa semejante. . 71m2-6 iixtzotzoliuhca in chichihualayotl. nata que nada sobre la leche. xtz>. 55m-14 ilhuicaatl tzo:lli-v03a-prt1-ya:n in ilhuicatl-a:tl1 +root +poss.phr>. 55m-9 itotzoliuhcacuini prt1-ca:6-cui-ni1>. 71m1-8 ittitzotzoltic. having a wrinkled stomach. . b.2 f.2 itzoltilia . 71m1- 7 itzoltilia tlaihtoltilia>. . 71m2-21 itzoltilia v01a-caus04 +xtz>tz>. 71m1-17 itzotzoliuhcacui prt1-ca:6-cui>. 71m1-8 itzotzoliuhcacuitl v03a-prt1-ca:6-cui-l2>. 71m1-8 itzotzoliuhcaololoani prt1-ca:6-olo:lli-v03a-caus06-ni1>. 71m1-8 itzotzoliuhcaolololli v03a-prt1-ca:6-olo:lli-v03a-caus06-l1>. 71m1-8 itztzotzoliuhcayotl. flor la lapa del vino. tztz>. 55m-9 ixtzotzolihuiliztli. moho de vino. xtz>. 55m-14 ixtzotzoliuhca in atolli. tez de alguna cosa liquida y quajada como la lapa o nata de leche quaxada o de poleadas, quando estan frias o de almidon o de cosa semejante que tiene tez enla sobre haz. xtz>. 71m1-20 ixtzotzoliuhca in vino tzo:lli-v03a-prt1-ca:5 in vino +spanish +poss.phr>. 55m-12 ixtzotzoliuhcacui prt1-ca:5-cui>. 55m-5 ixtzotzoliuhcacuitl prt1-ca:5-cui-l2>. 55m-5 ixtzotzoliuhcaolololli prt1-ca:6-olo:lli-v03a-caus06-l1>. 55m-5 ixtzotzoliuhcayotl. moho de vino; flor la lapa del vino. xtz>. 55m-14 ixtzotzoliuhqui. mohoso vino. xtz>. 55m-14 mamatzolihui. branches continually taper; the branches continually taper. . b.11 f.11 mamatzoliuhqui. having tapering branches. . b.11 f.11 mamatzoltic. having tapering branches. . b.11 f.11 matzolihui. manco delas manos. . 71m1-14 matzolihui ma:itl-tzo:lli-v03a>. 71m1-14 matzolihui tzo:lli-v03a +root>. 71m2-9 matzolihui. branches taper; it shrivels; the branches taper. . b.11 f.11 matzoloa conla mano. . 71m1-3 matzoloa ma:itl-tzo:lli-v03a-caus06 +root>. 71m2-9 matzoloani . 71m1-3 matzolohqui . 71m1-3 matzoltia , conte-. . . b.4 f.7 matzoltilia , tla-. . . b.10 f.2 matzoltilia 71m1-19 matzoltilia tzo:lli-v01a-caus04 +root>. 71m2-9 metzolli. . . 71m2-10 metzolli. pith of the maguey. . b.7 f.2 motzoltin. perezosos. <--tzo:lli-plur02>. 71m1-17 quechquechtzotzol , to-. flabbiness of our neck. chtz>. b.10 f.6 quechtzotzol , to-. flabbiness of our neck. chtz>. b.10 f.7 tentzol , to-. flabbiness of our lip. . b.10 f.7 tentzoltic. cosa frunzida, o estrecha de boca; repulgado frunzido. . 71m2-17 tentzoltic. narrow-mouthed. . b.11 f.26 tentzotzol , to-. flabbiness of our lips. . b.10 f.6 tlatzoliuhyan. estrecha tierra. . 71m1- 11 totoleltzotzolli. papada de gallo. . 55m-15 tzimmamatzoltic. having tapering roots. . b.11 f.11 tzohtzoliuhca , to-. our flabbiness. . b.10 f.6 tzohtzoliuhcayotl. flabbiness. . b.10 f.6 tzohtzollotl. flabbiness. ll>. b.10 f.6 tzohtzoltic. having folds. . b.10 f.7 tzolihui. ensangostarse. . 55m-8 tzolihui , tla-. it becomes narrow; it becomes thin; it contracts; it narrows. . b.10 f.7 tzolihui tzolihui. it becomes narrow; it contracts; it constricts. . b.10 f.7 tzolihuiliztli. ensangostadura; estrechura assi (assi is estrecha cosa como entrada de puerta o como vestidura o vasija); estrechura assi (assi is estrecha cosa como entrada de puerta o comovestidura o vasija); estrechura. . 55m-8 tzoliuhca , tla-. . . b.10 f.7 tzoliuhca , to-. our flabbiness. . b.10 f.8 tzoliuhc , to-. our flabbiness. . b.10 f.8 tzoliuhqueh , ti-. we are flabby. . b.10 f.8 tzoliuhya , tla-. constricted place; narrow place. . b.10 f.7 tzoliuhyan +root>. 55m-9 tzoliuhyan in ilhuicaatl tzo:lli-v03a-prt1-ya:n in ilhuicatl-a:tl1 +root +poss.phr>. 71m1-11 tzoliuhyan in tlalli ya:n in tla:lli +root +poss.phr>. 55m-9 tzoloa , nic-. I narrow it. . b.11 f.25 tzoloa edificio; ensangostar algo; estrechar algo. . 55m-00 tzoloa tzo:lli-v03a-caus06 +root>. 71m2-26 tzololli terminos); acortado edificio; cosa ensangostada; o estrechada; ensangostado. . 55m-00 tzolpil. small and narrow. . b.11 f.26 tzoltic. angosta cosa, casa, acequia, calzas, camisa, cesto o cosa assi; assi como casa; cal‡as; cesto o cosa semejante; cosa estrecha; o angosta; estrecha cama o mesa; estrecha cosa como entrada de puerta o como vestidura o vasija; estrecha cosa como entrada de puerta o como^vestidura o vasija. . 55m-00 tzoltic tzoltic. narrow; restricted; tapering. . b.11 f.25 tzoltin tzoltontli. small and narrow. . b.11 f.26 tzotzolic , to-. our flabbinesses. . b.10 f.8 tzotzolihui. it becomes flabby; it becomes folded; it becomes shrunken. . b.10 f.8 tzotzoliuhca , to-. our flabbinesses. . b.10 f.8 tzotzoliuhcayotl. flabbiness. . b.10 f.6 tzotzoliuhtimani. it keeps contracting. . b.2 f.2 tzotzollo. flabby. ll>. b.10 f.6 tzotzollotl. flabbiness. ll>. b.10 f.6 tzotzoltia. it becomes flabby. . b.10 f.7 tzotzoltic. flabby; having folds; narrow. . b.10 f.6 tzotzoltiqueh. flabby, having folds of fat. . b.10 f.10 yacahtzol , to-. tip of our nose. . b.10 f.6 yacahtzolli. tip of the nose. . b.10 f.6 yacatzol , i-. its snout. . b.11 f.1 yacatzolchiac. having a greasy nose. k>. b.11 f.2 yacatzolchiactic. having a fatty nose. k>. b.11 f.1 yacatzolchiahuac. having an oily nose; having a greasy nose. . b.11 f.1 yacatzollatlauhqui. having a red nose. . b.11 f.8 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu May 22 00:40:34 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 20:40:34 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Aztlan] Serpent And The Sun: Tales Of An Aztec Apprentice] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [Aztlan] Serpent And The Sun: Tales Of An Aztec Apprentice From: "Elaine Day Schele" Date: Wed, May 21, 2008 5:21 pm To: "'Aztlan'" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a new movie called "Serpent And The Sun: Tales Of An Aztec Apprentice" will have its Northern California Premiere at the Mendocino Film Festival. >>From the film website at http://www.serpentandthesun.com/main.html: "Tachi is 21 and has lived below the poverty line all of his life. He is a member of the Revolutionary Zapatista Collective in Mexico City . He is searching for his roots. Ehe is a 52nd generation Aztec medicine man and traditional healer (Curandero). Through a series of extraordinary circumstances the two meet. Tachi's life is changed forever. Extraordinary and inventive, The Serpent and the Sun was filmed on a month long journey through Mexico . This riveting "Hybrid Documentary" explores the roots of an Aztec medicine man and his apprentice while trekking through the mountains of rural Mexico . This powerful visual feast combines dreamlike panoramic landscapes with memorable characters and their heart warming stories while tracing the adventures of this unlikely duo as they travel throughout rural Mexico on a journey of epic proportions." Elaine _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu May 22 02:32:19 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 22:32:19 -0400 Subject: turquoise diadem In-Reply-To: <1B7AA4FF56B246A2ACFAE02DEAD23F99@WILLY1> Message-ID: Quoting wswilcox : > Molina has xiuhuitzolli, crown with precious stones. > This has to be xiuh-uitzolli, since he always uses simple u/v for w- > (and -uh for -w) > A verb huitzoa is attested in yacauitzoa - to sharpen a point. > This would give huitzo:lli for something pointed, presumably also > something with points, i.e. a crown Good point! Here are a few examples from Molina (including your item and the original one). 'amahuitzolli' and 'xacalhuitzolli' are two other kinds of 'huitzolli' besides the 'xihuitl' kind. amahuitzolli. coroza. . 71m1-5 xacalhuitzolli. pointed hut. . b.11 f.26 xiuhhuitzolli. corona real con piedras preciosas; mitra de obispo. . 71m1-5 xiuhhuitzolli. turquoise diadem. . b.6 f.2 yacahuitzoa =nitla. aguzar punta o ser el primero o delantero de los que caminan, o de los que estan puestos en orden; ahusar algo; punta sacar. . 71m1-1 yacahuitzoa =nitla=onitlayacahuitzo. sacar o aguzar punta. . 71m2-5 yacahuitzoani =tla. ahusador. . 71m1-1 yacahuitzoliztli =tla. ahusadura. . 71m1-1 yacahuitzolli =tla. aguzada punta; cosa hecha con punta; assi como recaton; passador; o cosa ahusada y aguzada de punta; puntada cosa con punta. . 71m1-1 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From archaeology.csumb at gmail.com Wed May 21 16:19:47 2008 From: archaeology.csumb at gmail.com (Archaeology CSUMB) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 09:19:47 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Listeros, In several recent publications, including those published in Vera Tiesler and Andrea Cucina's *New Perspectives on Human Sacrifice and Ritual Body Treatments in Ancient Maya Society* (Springer Press, 2007), and my own paper on "Aztec Militarism and Blood Sacrifice: The Archaeology and Ideology of Ritual Violence" published in the Richard J. Chacon and Rubén G. Mendoza edition of *Latin American Indigenous Warfare and Ritual Violence* (Arizona Press, 2007), discussions devolve from treatments of the forensic evidence now available for such considerations. In the "Aztec Militarism" paper I review extant osteological and blood serum analyses and procedures, and those sites now associated with mass burials. Among these latter, the sites of Tlatelolco and Cantona have resulted in the recovery of disarticulated, decapitated, and "pot polished" human remains accounting for upwards of two to three hundred individuals in each case. Interestingly, in each instance, the bodies were buried beneath the lime plastered courtyards at each site. In the region of Tlaxcala, Garcia Cook has documented bone yards and kill sites with men, women, and children numbering into the hundreds...replete with ritual offerings. At the site of Toluquilla, Queretaro, archaeologists chanced upon the recovery of some 50 decapitated human heads recovered from within the mortared platform at one end of one of the ballcourts at that site...and indicated that many more heads were contained therein, but conservation considerations led to the decision to leave the remaining 50 or more decapitated heads in their original matrix of lime mortar. In another recent paper titled "The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica," published in the Richard J. Chacon and David H. Dye edition of The Taking and Displaying of Human Body Parts as Trophies by Amerindians (Springer Press, 2007), I document a host of sources for the massing of decapitated human heads in sites from throughout Mesoamerica and beyond. While many continue to dispute the head count from the Huey tzompantli of Mexico-Tenochtitlan, many of those who contest this number neglect to consider that the Huey teocalli or Templo Mayor itself was in turn examined for human trophies, and counts at the time of the initial entrada of the Spaniards tallied a total head count for decapitated heads mortared into the facades of the Huey teocalli at over 60,000...and that does not include all of the many decomposed heads that were regularly, and systematically, cleared from the Huey tzompantli on an ongoing basis. So, given the growing mountain of evidence for blood tribute centered on social violence taking the form of ritual decapitation and dismemberment, and anthropophagy, I do believe it would be much harder to make the case that the numbers fall below those projected from selected sites documented by the Spanish at contact. Adding to this debate recent finds from Zultepec, Mexico, where the tzompantli's of that site were found to bear the heads of decapitated Spaniards, including a few European women and Mestizos, it is clear that this was standard practice in the empire of the Sun. When we add to this scenario the body count from Zultepec, including some 550 Spaniards, Indian allies, Mestizos, Mulattos, and Africans, documented both archaeologically, and by way of Spanish accounts...it is clear that the pattern was widespread, and that the Spanish, while maintaining agendas and propagandistic narratives, were nevertheless able to count the dead among them with a fair degree of accuracy. Best Regards, Ruben Mendoza On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 5:14 AM, Wm. Clay Poe wrote: > Quicklime (CaO) is produced by heating Calcium carbonate (CaCO3), to > about > 700 degrees centigrade at which point the CaCO3 dissociates into CaO and > CO2. When the CaO is slaked, mixed with water, it hydrates and becomes > Calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2. Over time the Calcium hydroxide absorbs CO2 > from > the atmosphere and becomes, once again, Calcium carbonate. This process > takes a very long time to complete and gives rise to comments about the > superior hardness of Roman cement. You just need to give it a couple of > thousand years. > > Human bone is mostly Calcium phosphate. Only about 7% is Calcium carbonate. > Human bone would not be a good choice for the source of quicklime. > > Regards, > > Bill > > Wm. Clay Poe, Ph.D., RPA > Professor of Archaeology > Sonoma State University > Rohnert Park, CA 94928 > > (707) 480-9251 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Sandor [mailto:gregory_sandor at hotmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 10:04 AM > To: David Becraft; MICHAEL RUGGERI; aztlan at lists.famsi.org; > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] [Nahuat-l] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > Is there a way to determine from the chemical composition of lime in mortar > > whether it was made from human bones? > > Regards, > > Greg > > (614) 517-7204 > greg at gregsandor.com > http://www.gregsandor.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Becraft" > To: "MICHAEL RUGGERI" ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > > Listeros, > > I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence > supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have > > there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number > > of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or > > maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, > but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? > > Pancho > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > > > > > Listeros. > > > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban > > > area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed > > individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been > > decapitated. > > > > Living in Peru has the story here; > > > > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-rema > ins-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > > > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > > Aztlan mailing list > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > Click to view Calendar of Events > > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=L_WL_ GreaterGood > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From alanrking at yahoo.com Thu May 22 08:04:33 2008 From: alanrking at yahoo.com (Alan King) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 01:04:33 -0700 Subject: On chantli and Pipil Message-ID: Alan King here, returning after a long absence - during which my work on Pipil (which we call Nawat) has not ceased - with greetings for Joe Campbell if he remembers me and the rest of the list. Ken annemit? This is in response to Joe's "comment 2" where he raises some issues about the status of chantli and tzolli about which I would like to chip in. Since this seems to have nothing at all to do with turquoise diadems, I thought it best to move over to a new thread with it. I was struck by Joe's digression about how to interpret the absence of a noun entry for chantli in Molina. In Pipil, the conclusion I have drawn from the entire text corpus at my disposal (written transcriptions of originally oral materials; my present corpus includes both previously published texts, written but unpublished stuff, and new oral material), as well as from direct observation of the language in use is that either there simply is no autonomous *noun* "chan" 'house' in Pipil, or else its presence is rather marginal and involves many reservations. For the ordinary noun 'house' Pipil has the word kal (cf. calli). Note that noun stems ending in an 'l' regularly take no suffix whether absolute or possessed. So: se kal "a house", ne kal "the house", (ne) nukal "my house". First a word about inalienability. If there were an equivalent of chantli in Pipil and it had an absolute form, the form we would expect is *chanti (cf. "sinti" - "nusin" 'maize' - 'my maize'). However, *chanti is not attested. Now there are many, many nouns with no absolute form in Pipil because they are obligatorily possessed (let's call such nouns inalienable), whereas in classical Nahuatl apparently they have absolute forms (at least in dictionaries). So for example 'mother' is "nan", it is inalienable so there is no *nanti, only "nunan" etc., and in at least one dialect also "tenan" is attested. Notice that this certainly does not prove that "nan" is not a noun, only that as a noun it is "inalienable". And of course relationals are also "inalienable"; while often described as noun-like, they likewise have no absolute form. My point, therefore, is not merely that in Pipil "chan" is inalienable (which would not be so surprising), but rather that it seems to be a relational (rather than just an inalienable noun) or, at best, something intermediate between a true noun and a true relational. For the most part, in Pipil "chan" certainly seems to function as a relational meaning 'chez', e.g. "Niaw nuchan" 'I am going home', "Nemi (ka) ichan" 'He/She is at home', "(i)chan ne palej" 'at the priest's house'. (Note that omission of "i-" when the possessor follows, as in "chan ne palej", is very widespread both with relationals and inalienable nouns in Pipil.) The corpus is chock-full of this kind of usage of "chan". In the Santo Domingo de Guzmán variety of Pipil, I have hardly encountered evidence in actual language use to contradict the hypothesis that this is the *only* way "chan" is used as an autonomous word in this dialect. By autonomous word I mean to exclude lexical derivatives or compounds such as "chanej" 'inhabitant', or "techan" lexicalized in the meaning 'village'. For another variety, that spoken in Cuisnahuat, as far as I know the same can be said except that here the word that has been lexicalized as meaning 'village' is "tuchan". "Techan" (Santo Domingo) and "tuchan" (Cuisnahuat) are synchronically true nouns, but I suspect that "chan" as such is not - at least in these dialects. At least three tests of "nounness" might be suggested here (see below for yet another): (1) can it take a determiner such as a definite or indefinite article or a demonstrative? (this test could be expanded to included other determiners and quantifiers) (2) can it be qualified by an adjective? Both of these tests question whether "chan" really is a nucleus of a noun phrase admitting normal noun phrase expansions. (3) a semantic test: is "chan" only used to refer to a location (as relationals typically do) or can it also refer to an object (as "kal" certainly can). By these tests, my assertion about "chan" is confirmed for these dialects. (The only example with "ne" + "chan" are "ne techan" in Santo Domingo and "ne tuchan" in Cuisnahuat, both meaning "the village".) This conflicts with a claim made to me by one present-day speaker who thinks that "kal" and "chan" are both nouns and "really" refer to different types of construction. I have found nothing to support this in actual usage and suspect it is a spurious rationalization of the existence of two different words which are patently not quite equivalent, by someone lacking the linguistic sophistication needed to comprehend the notion of a grammatical rather than semantic differentiation between lexemes, especially when without a parallel in Spanish. I only mention this for the sake of completeness and in honour of his opinion, whether correct or in error. However, in one important component in the Pipil corpus, the texts recorded by Leonhard Schultze Jena in the 1920s in Izalco, where the language is now all but extinct, there are some counterexamples regarding test (1), given that the definite article "ne" sometimes precedes "ichan", as in (with standardized spelling): "Ne shulet mukwepki tik ne ichan kilia ne isiwaw" 'The husband returned home to tell his wife'. In Santo Domingo this would be: "Ne shulet mukwepki (ka) ichan kilwia ne isiwaw", omitting both the article and the locative preposition "tik", which also seems to be incompatible with relationals. (This suggests another syntactic test for nouns: can they be preceded by a preposition other than "ka"? "Ka" acts somewhat differently to other prepositions - long story - and its optional presence doesn't prove anything here.) But even in the Izalco data, and even when the article "ne" is present, only locative phrases are found. By contrast, with "kal" there are some non-locative uses in the corpus, such as: "se lamatzin ka kipiatuya ne ikal tik se kujtan..." 'an old woman who had a (lit. "her") house in the woods/country' etc. On the basis of my findings on Pipil usage, I would expect *ichan to be starred in a sentence such as this one. As far as I know, this distinction between "kal" (as a noun) and "chan" (as something other than a real or full noun) has not previously been noted in linguistic descriptions of El Salvador Nawat, hence my need to argue the case as I have done. Having done that, I thought this might just have a bearing on the absence of a dictionary entry for a noun "chantli" in classical Nahuatl, as noted by Joe Campbell. If relevant, then this would not only tell us something about classical Nahuatl but also about Pipil Nawat by suggesting that the usage I have described for the latter continues a pattern of considerable antiquity. Sorry that had to be so long! Alan _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From david_becraft at hotmail.com Thu May 22 13:59:24 2008 From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 06:59:24 -0700 Subject: Nelcuilolli: A Revisionist Approach to Indigenous Epistemological Writings Systems of Anahuac Message-ID: Hi, I just wanted to share this with the lists. Here is the URL: https://share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docidraa5af5-2804-11dd-bd84-11cded5570d0 Here is the HTML: David F. Becraft _________________________________________________________________ Change the world with e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?sourceìhangeWorld _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu May 22 15:27:11 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 10:27:11 -0500 Subject: Turquoise diadem Message-ID: Many thanks to Joe and W. S. for all the input (and to Stephanie for her off-list suggestions). Sorry for missing the xiuhuitzolli in the castellano-mexicano section of Molina, W. S.; I was rushing through my mail so I could only be a little bit late for class. The data provided has been more than enough to clear up my doubts. I have printed it all out and will glue it all to 5 x 8 file cards for future reference (call me old-fashioned, but I like to have it all on paper so I can spread it out on the table). David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From david_becraft at hotmail.com Thu May 22 15:57:55 2008 From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 08:57:55 -0700 Subject: I'll Try one more time, Nelcuilolli: A Revisionist Aproach to Indigenous Epistemological Writing Sys Message-ID: This one seems to be working. URL: https://share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docidraa5af5-2804-11dd-bd84-11cded5570d0 _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souceíCause _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From becraftd at students.sou.edu Thu May 22 15:49:03 2008 From: becraftd at students.sou.edu (David F. Becraft) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 11:49:03 -0400 Subject: David F. Becraft has shared a file with you Message-ID: I hope this one goes through! Click on the link below or copy and paste the entire URL to your web browser address bar to retrieve your file. https://share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docid=72aa5af5-2804-11dd-bd84-11cded5570d0 Document Information Owner: David F. Becraft Created: May 22, 2008 Modified: May 22, 2008 ======================================================= What is "SHARE" beta? ------------------------------ SHARE beta is a web-based service to share, publish and manage your important documents. Visit http://share.adobe.com/ SHARE FILES - Share and manage your files in one location: https://share.acrobat.com/adc/subscribe.do You are receiving this e-mail because David F. Becraft [becraftd at students.sou.edu] is sharing a document with you. Receiving this e-mail has not added you to any e-mail list. Copyright 2007 Adobe Systems Incorporated. All rights reserved. 345 Park Avenue, San Jose, CA 95110. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ShareIcon.png Type: image/png Size: 956 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BecraftMcNairJournal2008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24912 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri May 23 06:04:25 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 02:04:25 -0400 Subject: Turquoise diadem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, I'll call you old fashioned if you'll call me a nitpicker. I have been worrying about your "iuhui" from the Florentine (b. 1, p. 25, last line). Anderson and Dibble transcribed the phrase "... yn juhuj..." and, as accurate as they were, I thought I smelled a typo. So I checked the facsimile and A&D turned out to be as accurate as they usually are -- they had merely inserted a blank for readability: "...ynjuhuj...". Obviously, I could no longer smell a typo, but now I smell a scribo. I strongly suspect that "juhuj" is an erroneous spelling for "juhquj". "iuh" and "iuhqui" are preterit forms of "ihui" (to be thus, to be so). A&D translated the phrase "yn iuhuj cencan" as 'in the very same manner' as if it were "iuhqui". I looked through various examples (no more than caxtolli) and found that when they use the phrase 'in the same manner', it corresponds to "iuh" or "iuhqui". ...and that's why I think thus, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Sat May 24 01:49:54 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 18:49:54 -0700 Subject: Vowels Message-ID: I'm finding "long" and "short" confusing, I think because I instinctively pronounce nahuatl in spanish. And I have no sound model to use. I'm looking at a few examples and sure I'm going to sound like a fool the first time I try to speak them. axcan (now/today) has the little line over both vowels. "Aysh-cane" ? or ahsh-cahn Nican (here) "Nih-cane" or Ni-cahn ? ompa (over there) mark on the o om-pah or oom-pah ? iyalhua (yesterday) Eye-yale-hua or ee-yal-hua ? Those examples show up my confusion quite nicely. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mixcoatl at gmail.com Sat May 24 03:06:07 2008 From: mixcoatl at gmail.com (Geoff Davis) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 23:06:07 -0400 Subject: Vowels In-Reply-To: <38A5FFC4-B1B6-49FE-A08D-62AB62AF4413@ipinc.net> Message-ID: On 5/23/08, Kier Salmon wrote: > I'm finding "long" and "short" confusing, I think > because I instinctively pronounce nahuatl in > spanish. And I have no sound model to use. [snip] Based upon your examples, I'm assuming you're comparing long English vowels (ay vs. ah) to, for example, Spanish vowels. The length distinction has mostly disappeared from English, now, and previously long vowels have changed position in the vocal tract so they're still distinct. Therein lies the confusion, I believe. English "long" vowels are no longer truly long. I've read that this has happened in some modern Nahuatl dialects too (tense/lax distinction, etc.) Classically speaking, though, the Nahuatl length distinction is a /true/ length distinction. This means that /a:/ is the same vocal quality as /a/, but held slightly longer. Hope this helps. :D Regards, -Geoff _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From david_becraft at hotmail.com Fri May 30 09:44:38 2008 From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (david_becraft at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 02:44:38 -0700 Subject: I just saw it on CNN.com: 'Uncontacted tribe' sighted in Amazon Message-ID: *Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified. This is very interesting! ******************** If you are having trouble with any of the links in this message, or if the URL's are not appearing as links, please follow the instructions at the bottom of this email. Title: 'Uncontacted tribe' sighted in Amazon - CNN.com Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to access the sent link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=1005447200&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to SAVE THIS link: http://www.savethis.clickability.com/st/saveThisPopupApp?clickMap=saveFromET&partnerID=211911&etMailToID=1005447200&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to forward this link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=forward&etMailToID=1005447200&partnerID=211911&pt=Y ******************** Email pages from any Web site you visit - add the EMAIL THIS button to your browser, copy and paste the following into your Web browser: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=browserButtons&pt=Y" ********************* Instructions: ----------------------------------------- If your e-mail program doesn't recognize Web addresses: 1. With your mouse, highlight the Web Address above. Be sure to highlight the entire Web address, even if it spans more than one line in your email. 2. Select Copy from the Edit menu at the top of your screen. 3. Launch your Web browser. 4. Paste the address into your Web browser by selecting Paste from the Edit menu. 5. Click Go or press Enter or Return on your keyboard. ******************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu Sat May 31 02:28:19 2008 From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P. Smith) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 19:28:19 -0700 Subject: QUERY: Mestlapiques Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Does anyone out there happen to know the Latin name for the scaly viviparous fish called mestlapique? I have found dozens of references to them as an important food source for the lakeshore people and chinamperos of Lake Chalco and Lake Xochimilco but haven't been able to ascertain exactly what they are. Sahagun has a one-line description of a fish called Michipitli, which maybe the same creature, and Aleman lists mestlapiques as an important lake fish in his geographical dictionary. So far, however, I have found no present-day references or alternative names for them. I'm also trying to identify a root called Cabecitas de Negro. This term also shows up in dozens of 17th and 18th century documents and Sor Juana even has a recipe for it in her cookbook. If anyone has a guess as to what this water plant may be, I would be much obliged. Thanks much, Kevin Smith Department of History University of California Santa Barbara _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat May 31 03:11:19 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 22:11:19 -0500 Subject: QUERY: Mestlapiques In-Reply-To: <20080530192819.p9qqvvsje2o0c8ks@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Kevin: The first place I usually look for "aztequismos" is Francisco J. Santamaria's *Diccionario de mejicanismos* (5a ed., Mexico City, Editorial Porrua, 1992 [1st. ed. 1959]). On page 719 is this entry: "Mestlapique. (Del azt. *mich-tlapic*: de *michin*, pescado, y *tlapic*, envuelto.) m. Tamalito compuesto de un pescadito especial, entero, envuelto en hoja de maíz, asado que se vende en los mercados. "'La suciedad y pestilencia eran más notables en los puestos de frutas, *mestlapiques*, ranas, ajolotes, etcetera, y montalayos, tripa gorda, pancita, carnitas y otras carnes indecentes y medio podridas'. (PRIETO, *Memorias*, II p. 69.)" The reference is to Guillermo Prieto, *Memorias de mis tiempos*, Mexico City, 1906. *Mich(in)*, of course, is fish, and our dear friend Alonso de Molina, on f. 132r of the second section of his *Vocabulario*, confirms Santamaria's gloss of *Tlapic*: "Tlapictli. hechura, o criatura, o cosa criada, fingida, o cosa embuelta en hojas de mayz, assi como tamalli. &c. o almario hecho en lo hueco d la pared." The question is whether *mestlapique* really derives from *mich* + *tlapic*. In San Nicolás, Ixmiquilpan, Hidalgo, I've eaten delicious tamales with *charales* or tiny fish (in this case from the nearby Presa Golondrinas, next to Alfajayucan), packed in aromatic herbs, with no corn, cooked on the comal rather than the usual steaming in the *olla tamalera*. What made them "tamales" was the fact that they were cooked in corn leaves. Nobody there called them *mestlapiques*; Santamaria's entry just reminded me of the experience. Saludos, David -----Mensaje original----- [...] Does anyone out there happen to know the Latin name for the scaly viviparous fish called mestlapique? I have found dozens of references to them as an important food source for the lakeshore people and chinamperos of Lake Chalco and Lake Xochimilco but haven't been able to ascertain exactly what they are. Sahagun has a one-line description of a fish called Michipitli, which maybe the same creature, and Aleman lists mestlapiques as an important lake fish in his geographical dictionary. So far, however, I have found no present-day references or alternative names for them. [...] Thanks much, Kevin Smith [...] _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Sat May 31 18:47:53 2008 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 14:47:53 -0400 Subject: QUERY: Mestlapiques In-Reply-To: <20080530192819.p9qqvvsje2o0c8ks@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Dear listeros, The best book for fish in Mexico is Robert Rush Miller, Freshwater Fishes of Mexico, U. Chicago Press, 2005. He lists mexcalpique and mexcalpiques, various generas and species in the Goodeidae family. In Spanish they share the common name "splitfin". Nahuatl etymology is probably related to mahtlapal- or ma:stla:kapal-, stems for two different types of 'wings', 'arms', etc. (the first unbent, the second jointed). The verb pi:k, cf. picqui in Remi Simeon as an adjective, "macizo, compacto" and in Molina as "cosa maciza". Since one of the extended meanings of the verb is "prensar" (nopam mopiqui in Simeon as estoy prensado, lit. la multitud se apiña sobre mí) the fish name could well refer to the pressed, flattened look of the tails of Goodeidae, see illustrations in the above-cited book. jda Quoting "Kevin P. Smith" : > Dear Colleagues, > > Does anyone out there happen to know the Latin name for the scaly > viviparous fish called mestlapique? I have found dozens of references > to them as an important food source for the lakeshore people and > chinamperos of Lake Chalco and Lake Xochimilco but haven't been able > to ascertain exactly what they are. Sahagun has a one-line description > of a fish called Michipitli, which maybe the same creature, and Aleman > lists mestlapiques as an important lake fish in his geographical > dictionary. So far, however, I have found no present-day references or > alternative names for them. > > I'm also trying to identify a root called Cabecitas de Negro. This > term also shows up in dozens of 17th and 18th century documents and > Sor Juana even has a recipe for it in her cookbook. If anyone has a > guess as to what this water plant may be, I would be much obliged. > > Thanks much, > > Kevin Smith > Department of History > University of California Santa Barbara > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sat May 31 20:53:06 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 16:53:06 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Aztlan] Nahuatl Writing] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [Aztlan] Nahuatl Writing From: ECOLING at aol.com Date: Fri, May 30, 2008 9:07 pm To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The most recent issue of the PARI newsletter which can be obtained as part of membership, or purchased separately, see _www.mesoweb.com/pari/journal/0804_ (http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/journal/0804) has some very rich articles on Nahuatl writing by Alfonso Lacadena, the result of a decade of research by him, with supporting material by Marc Zender and a quotation from Zelia Nuttall. It includes Lacadena's Nahuatl syllabary. These articles show clearly that Nahuatl writing, like Mayan writing, is composed of logograms and a phonetic syllabary, but with some differences from Maya writing in that consonants are not written at ends of words or ends of syllables. The writing is not as complete as Mayan, since syllables may also be skipped, but the first syllable is always written except in a few very rare late examples which begin with a sound which did not exist in Nahuatl and was omitted from the writing. The articles contain many examples, with citations of source pages, and make several methodological points. (1) The same types of reasoning can be used as for Mayan writing, to establish whether a sign is a logogram or a phonogram. (2) The decipherment of Nahuatl writing would have occurred much earlier if those looking at it had had comparative knowledge of logosyllabic writing systems elsewhere in the world, since several individuals (Aubin, Nuttall, and others) had noticed crucial types of spellings. (3) Decipherment of Nahuatl writing was hampered by the assumption (the wish to believe?) that the more phonetic spellings reflected influence from Spanish and the Latin-script. Instead, it turns out that the scribes of most parts of the Texcoco realms (Acolhuas) on the eastern side of Lake Texcoco chose to use far more phonograms, while scribes of Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco on the western side chose to use far more logograms. Otherwise, Lacadena argues that there was no difference in early vs. late spellings, that exactly the same sets of logograms and phonograms were available in the two areas, with a single exception, signs for /wa/, probably to avoid confusion with a numerical sign for "2". (In the later period additional logograms appeared for items introduced by the Spanish.) The difference between these two areas is much like a difference among Mayan areas, that scribes at Chich'en Itza' used far more phonograms, compared with other Mayan sites using far more logograms. Yet no one suggests that Chich'en was under more influence from the Latin script. These findings will have a substantial long-term effect on studies of Central Mexico. The papers report important advances. A brief discussion of the stone of Tizoc suggests that new perspectives may also change many interpretations of Aztec history. We can be very grateful both to the authors and to Joel Skidmore for seeing that this material is published. Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics PO Box 15156 Washington, DC 20003 ecoling at aol.com 202-547-7683 _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From david_becraft at hotmail.com Thu May 1 08:20:08 2008 From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 01:20:08 -0700 Subject: dark/light skin color differences in pre- and post-conquest Mexico In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Listeros, In response to Carolines e-mail I ran across a website that has a curious quote. I cannot verify the source (sorry) but if anybody knows or has seen this quote, maybe they can produce the source. The website is: http://cyberbohemia.com/Pages/originoftem.htm What I find interesting in this quote is that sick people stained their skin black before partaking in the temescal. """In the 16th century, a Spanish priest expressed his contempt for the native bath in this note: "This is a picture of the baths of the Indians which they call 'temazcalli.' At the door is an Indian who was the mediator for illnesses. When a sick person took a bath he offered incense, which they term copal, to his idol and stained his skin black in veneration to the idol Tezcatlipoca. Many Indians, men and women, stark naked, took thesebaths and committed nasty and vile sins within."""" Just some food for thought. Pancho ---------------------------------------- > From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:58:04 +0100 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] dark/light skin color differences in pre- and post-conquest Mexico > > Dear Listeros, > > In response to Pancho's email, bathing was certainly both a sanitary and ritual activity, but it was not practised by Mexica priests. I wonder if you are thinking of the fact that it is believed that lay people (from the tlatoani downwards) liked to bathe twice a day. I don't know whether ritual bathing was common amongst priests in other indigenous Mexican cultures, but I think I am right in saying (though would welcome hearing about any source to the contrary) that bathing was prohibited amongst Mexica priests. Sacrificial victims were frequently bathed as part of the ritual, however. > > And, yes, Tenoch is usually regarded as a priest or priest-king. Coester posits that he was 'priest and chief of a tribe representing the theocratic element of the population' (as opposed to Mexitli who represented the warriors). If true, that would link him fairly closely to the priestly side.(A. Coester, 'Mexico or Mejico?', Hispania, 8.2 (1925), p.113) This is contradicted by Caso and Wicke, however, who say he was 'only a military chief'. (A. Caso and C.R. Wicke, 'Land Tenure Amongst the Ancient Mexicans', American Anthropologist, 65.4 (1963), p.865) There's clearly some controversy about this, probably because we don't really know. Ingham collated the claims of Torquemada, Duran, Tezozomoc and the Codex Mendoza about the founders and came to the conclusion that Tenoch was the chief or King and Meci was the high priests, so it clearly isn't a conclusive link. (J.M. Ingham, 'Time and Space in Ancient Mexico', Man, 6.4 (1971), p.621) Tenoch is certainly usually described! a! > s a priest, however, and it may be that the semi-sacred status of rulers in early Mexico makes the distinction unhelpful in some contexts. > > Yours, > Caroline > > ------ > Dr Caroline Dodds > Lecturer in Early Modern History > School of Historical Studies > University of Leicester > University Road > Leicester > LE1 7RH > > http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/people/ced22.html > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Becraft [mailto:david_becraft at hotmail.com] > Sent: 30 April 2008 08:18 > To: Dodds, Dr C.E.; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org ((messages)) > Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] dark/light skin color differences in pre- and post-conquest Mexico > > > > > > Hello Listeros, > > Didn't Priests commonly and ritually bathe twice a day? My understanding is that bathing was not only a sanitary practice, it was also a ritual one. Also, Tenoch is depicted as a very dark man in contrast to the other founders of Mexico-Tenochtitlan; is there any evidence that Tenoch was a Priest? I don't recall the source, so I apologize beforehand, but I remember that possibly status was given to darker skinned people. > > Pancho > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _________________________________________________________________ In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_realtime_042008 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu Thu May 1 14:11:19 2008 From: mbassett at umail.ucsb.edu (Molly Bassett) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 07:11:19 -0700 Subject: dark/light skin color differences in pre- and post-conquest Mexico In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, all. That text is from the Codex Magliabechiano. Attached are the image & original text. Best, Molly Bassett Molly Bassett Ph.D. Candidate, Religious Studies University of California, Santa Barbara -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: page_76v.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 303889 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: page_77r.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 359445 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- On May 1, 2008, at 1:20 AM, David Becraft wrote: > > > > > Dear Listeros, > > In response to Carolines e-mail I ran across a website that has a > curious quote. I cannot verify the source (sorry) but if anybody > knows or has seen this quote, maybe they can produce the source. > The website is: > > http://cyberbohemia.com/Pages/originoftem.htm > > What I find interesting in this quote is that sick people stained > their skin black before partaking in the temescal. > > > """In the 16th century, a Spanish priest expressed his contempt for > the native bath in this note: "This is a picture of the baths of the > Indians which they call 'temazcalli.' At the door is an Indian who > was the mediator for illnesses. When a sick person took a bath he > offered incense, which they term copal, to his idol and stained his > skin black in veneration to the idol Tezcatlipoca. Many Indians, men > and women, stark naked, took thesebaths and committed nasty and vile > sins within."""" > > > > Just some food for thought. > > > Pancho > > ---------------------------------------- >> From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:58:04 +0100 >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] dark/light skin color differences in pre- >> and post-conquest Mexico >> >> Dear Listeros, >> >> In response to Pancho's email, bathing was certainly both a >> sanitary and ritual activity, but it was not practised by Mexica >> priests. I wonder if you are thinking of the fact that it is >> believed that lay people (from the tlatoani downwards) liked to >> bathe twice a day. I don't know whether ritual bathing was common >> amongst priests in other indigenous Mexican cultures, but I think I >> am right in saying (though would welcome hearing about any source >> to the contrary) that bathing was prohibited amongst Mexica >> priests. Sacrificial victims were frequently bathed as part of the >> ritual, however. >> >> And, yes, Tenoch is usually regarded as a priest or priest-king. >> Coester posits that he was 'priest and chief of a tribe >> representing the theocratic element of the population' (as opposed >> to Mexitli who represented the warriors). If true, that would link >> him fairly closely to the priestly side.(A. Coester, 'Mexico or >> Mejico?', Hispania, 8.2 (1925), p.113) This is contradicted by Caso >> and Wicke, however, who say he was 'only a military chief'. (A. >> Caso and C.R. Wicke, 'Land Tenure Amongst the Ancient Mexicans', >> American Anthropologist, 65.4 (1963), p.865) There's clearly some >> controversy about this, probably because we don't really know. >> Ingham collated the claims of Torquemada, Duran, Tezozomoc and the >> Codex Mendoza about the founders and came to the conclusion that >> Tenoch was the chief or King and Meci was the high priests, so it >> clearly isn't a conclusive link. (J.M. Ingham, 'Time and Space in >> Ancient Mexico', Man, 6.4 (1971), p.621) Tenoch is certainly >> usually described! > a! >> s a priest, however, and it may be that the semi-sacred status of >> rulers in early Mexico makes the distinction unhelpful in some >> contexts. >> >> Yours, >> Caroline >> >> ------ >> Dr Caroline Dodds >> Lecturer in Early Modern History >> School of Historical Studies >> University of Leicester >> University Road >> Leicester >> LE1 7RH >> >> http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/people/ced22.html >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Becraft [mailto:david_becraft at hotmail.com] >> Sent: 30 April 2008 08:18 >> To: Dodds, Dr C.E.; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org ((messages)) >> Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] dark/light skin color differences in pre- >> and post-conquest Mexico >> >> >> >> >> >> Hello Listeros, >> >> Didn't Priests commonly and ritually bathe twice a day? My >> understanding is that bathing was not only a sanitary practice, it >> was also a ritual one. Also, Tenoch is depicted as a very dark man >> in contrast to the other founders of Mexico-Tenochtitlan; is there >> any evidence that Tenoch was a Priest? I don't recall the source, >> so I apologize beforehand, but I remember that possibly status was >> given to darker skinned people. >> >> Pancho >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _________________________________________________________________ > In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_realtime_042008 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri May 2 03:46:35 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 23:46:35 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl word formation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nocnihuan, One of features of Nahuatl that makes it fascinating to us is the wealth of metaphors captured in its word formation. Words like "acitlalin", 'dewdrop' (atl [water] - citlalin [star]) catch our attention, please us like a well-formed phrase, and even make us want to find more of them. One source of assistance in appreciating Nahuatl word formation is J. Richard Andrews' _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_ (either the first edition or the revised edition). It also presents us with suggestions for analyses of words which should make us stop and consider where sober analysis ends and where dubious suggestions begin. One example is the suggestion that "te:na:nquilia:" 'he answers someone' is derived from a source stem no longer extant, "*na:nca" 'to act in the manner of a mother'. Most people would not object to the idea of a productive stem which does not occur independently (if there is no stem "xel(-li)", we might have a difficult time accounting for "cuaxeltic", "xexeltic", "xelihui", and "xeloa"). (A side remark: I am very wary of phrases like "no longer" in the discussing the structure of a grammar, since I am afraid that the user is *really* thinking of the historical development of the language, rather than the grammar as it exists at a given point in time.) "*na:nca" leaves us with two problems: 1) we have no pattern of derivation to arrive at "te:na:nquilia:". When we have derivations like "pi:tza" 'blow' > pi:tztli 'whistle, something blown' > "nipi:tzoa" 'I use a whistle, I whistle', where the processes are seen as parallel to the same processes in the formation of other words, we have support for our trust in the hypothesis, but here it is lacking. 2) the semantic stretch between "mother" (i.e., act in the manner of a mother") and "answer" *might* bear some weight if that link were evident in other places in the language, but without that support, one's willingness to believe fails. --- Another example is the suggestion that "te:lpo:chtli" is derived from or related to "po:ca" 'it smokes'. Obviously, there are many Nahuatl words with the string "po:ch" involving the application of smoke, the act of incensing. ...but where is the semantic bridge between "youth" and "incense". I admit that there may be one and I would be happy to hear of credible evidence. --- These two examples are intended as an introduction to my main topic: "ohuihcan" 'dangerous place' (and many other examples involving danger and difficulty). In his first edition, Andrews presented these words as being derived from an obsolete verb "*ohuia" (note that I have abandoned long vowel marking). There was no implication that "ohuia" might be divisable then, but in the revised edition, the source for the well populated family of "ohuia" word is "ohhuia" (ohtli-verb suffix) 'to be like a road, to present danger'. Again, I can imagine that this is a possibility, but there is no evidence elsewhere linking 'road' and 'danger'. Further, there is no *clear* evidence of a "-huia" intransitive suffix meaning 'be'. (One possibility: "coyohuia" 'they howl' [they are like coyotes]) It is very interesting that the element is no longer "ohuia", but "ohhuia". While much of the material in Andrews' books rests heavily on Carochi's grammar, his belief in the 'road' / 'danger' relationship (without supporting parallels) motivates changing the shape of the data. He points out that Carochi does not show a glottal stop. But he changes his image of what the date is because it fits his theory (based on a tightly stretched semantic relationship). Granted, there is only one occurrence of a relevant piece in Carochi's grammar (f53v). Obviously, I believe that when we describe the morphology of a language, we should err on the side of caution. If we stretch the semantic bridges too far, the overall description is fragile and I worry about the expenditure of all that time on something too easily collapsible. What do y'all think? Iztayohmeh, Joe p.s. references to Andrews are below... ************* Andrews, revised edition p. 441 ohhuihca = it is in the manner of a thing that has become dangerous/difficult; i.e., with difficulty, with danger p. 574 ohhuia = to be like a road; i.e., to pose a danger; to be dangerous/difficult Carochi does not show a glottal stop closing the first syllable p. 579 ohhuiti = to have a road; i.e., to be in/face danger Carochi does not show a glottal stop *************** Andrews, first edition p. 31 In certain instances, the source verb is obsolete: ohuihca* = with difficulty [Class C pret theme: -(ohuih)0-. Compare the co-derived adjective ohuih, "it is difficult"] p. 32 The adverbials in *ca* may be negated by this procedure: ayohuihca* ~ aohuihca* = easily, without difficulty p. 257 Occasionally the source verb is no longer used: ohuih = it is difficult [Compare (ohuih-0-ca*-yo*)-tl, "difficulty, danger," and (ohuih-0-ca)-0, "with difficulty," both from the same preterit theme. p. 322 Itlah ohuih i*pan mochi*huaz. = Something dangerous will happen to him. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri May 2 14:27:17 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 10:27:17 -0400 Subject: Templo Mayor exhibit Message-ID: Listeros, Erik Boot has posted news of this exhibition opening at the Templo Mayor; Mike Ruggeri Yesterday, Sunday April 27, 2008, the Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia posted a short report on the recently inaugurated exposition entitled Coyolxauhqui y el Templo Mayor, 30 a?os reconstruyendo el pasado: 1978-2008. This special exhibit is hosted at the Museo del Templo Mayor in Mexico City until August 31, 2008, and features over 90 objects, many of which have never before been exhibited before (edited by AMaNU): Resume muestra 30 a?os de arqueolog?a en el centro hist?rico - En febrero de 1978, cuando trabajadores de Luz y Fuerza del Centro se toparon con el monolito de Coyolxauhqui, dif?cilmente imaginaron que este hallazgo derivar?a en la expropiaci?n de m?s de 3 mil 500 m? del Centro Hist?rico de la capital mexicana, as? como en el establecimiento de un proyecto de investigaci?n que ha brindado m?ltiples luces sobre la cultura mexica. A 30 a?os de distancia, en opini?n de Alfonso de Maria y Campos, director general del Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia (INAH), el Proyecto Templo Mayor "representa uno de los esfuerzos m?s importantes de la arqueolog?a mexicana contempor?nea, considerando la rigurosidad cient?fica que ha podido alcanzar". Al inaugurar la exposici?n temporal Coyolxauhqui y el Templo Mayor. 30 a?os reconstruyendo el pasado. 1978-2008, el titular de la instituci?n consider? que esta calidad en el estudio sobre la civilizaci?n mexica, se encuentra garantizada debido al intercambio de conocimientos entre especialistas de renombre y los nuevos cuadros de investigadores. "En el contexto mundial, los expertos del Proyecto Templo Mayor trabajan, codo a codo, con investigadores de todas las naciones. De suerte que la arqueolog?a mexicana, con un relevo generacional muy visible, representa la seguridad de consolidar una gran cantidad de informaci?n acerca de nuestro pasado", expres?. En ese sentido, el profesor Eduardo Matos Moctezuma, investigador em?rito del INAH y fundador del Proyecto Templo Mayor, hizo ?nfasis en los ciclos de conferencias resultado tambi?n de este programa y que han permitido el intercambio entre historiadores, bi?logos, qu?micos, restauradores y, por supuesto, arque?logos. "Un com?n denominador de esta conmemoraci?n es, precisamente, el hecho de reunir a diversas generaciones de especialistas. Y as?, desde estudiosos consagrados y reconocidos por sus aportes a la cultura azteca, hasta j?venes alumnos que se inician bajo prometedores augurios, son muestra palpable de que hay un futuro promisorio para las labores por desarrollar". De esa manera, hasta el 31 de agosto, quien visite el Museo del Templo Mayor podr? apreciar una retrospectiva compuesta por alrededor de 90 piezas -algunas nunca antes vistas-, gr?ficos, as? como videos que recrean virtualmente la disposici?n de los espacios del antiguo centro ceremonial tenochca. En Coyolxauhqui y el Templo Mayor?, sobresalen 4 almenas monumentales [illustrated above, photograph: Mauricio Marat/INAH], las cuales posiblemente remataron un calm?cac o escuela de nobles mexicas. Tambi?n se aprecian fragmentos de dos figuras que representan a las deidades Mictlantecuhtli y Xiuhtecuhlti, un Cuauhxicalli o recipiente en forma de ?guila, y la Piedra de la Librer?a Porr?a, conocida como La biznaga. Inclusive, el visitante conocer? la "paleta" original de la escultura de Coyolxauhqui. Luces especiales -proyectadas sobre el monolito original- recrean su crom?tica primaria, la que estuvo compuesta por rojo, ocre, azul, blanco y negro. A su vez, el p?blico ser? recibido desde la entrada a la zona arqueol?gica, por una r?plica coloreada.Carlos Javier Gonzal?z, director del Museo del Templo Mayor, record? que durante la primera temporada de campo derivada del descubrimiento de Coyolxauhqui, bajo responsabilidad de Matos Moctezuma entre 1978 y 1982, se ubicaron 7 etapas constructivas del edificio y 110 ofrendas compuestas por m?s de 7 mil objetos. Finalmente, en 1987, el monolito fue trasladado a su lugar de honor en el recinto. Tal novedad provoc? que el Museo del Templo Mayor superara en visitas al Museo Nacional de Antropolog?a, durante su primer mes de funcionamiento; as? mismo, destac? que es el tercer museo del INAH en haber recibido, al a?o, un promedio de 12 millones personas. Sin embargo, las labores de estudio no se detuvieron en 1982, continuaron otras cinco temporadas de excavaci?n del Proyecto Templo Mayor (la s?ptima se lleva a cabo actualmente en el predio Ajaracas- Campanas), as? como el Programa de Arqueolog?a Urbana, con lo que se ha incrementado colecci?n del museo y se han intensificado los trabajos de investigaci?n. "Puede decirse, sin titubeos, que el del Templo Mayor es el proyecto m?s fruct?fero en la historia de la arqueolog?a mexicana, avalan lo anterior m?s de 30 tesis profesionales -muchas derivadas en publicaciones-, as? como m?s de 300 fichas bibliogr?ficas producidas por los investigadores del proyecto", concluy?. For your convenience: Museo del Templo Mayor, one block from the Zocalo in Mexico City, has its visiting hours from 09:00 to 17:00 hrs., daily from Tuesday to Sunday. Entry fee is 48 pesos per person. Free entry for children under the age of 13 and adults above the age of 60, as well as for students and teachers with credential or Plan Joven card. On Sunday free admittance for all Mexican nationals (source INAH - Sala de Prensa). http://www.templomayor.inah.gob.mx/ Erik Boot's Ancient Mesoamerican News Updates http://ancient-mesoamerica-news-updates.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri May 2 14:28:45 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 10:28:45 -0400 Subject: From Aztlan: Codex Vaticanus y Fejervary Message-ID: Hola Elena Mazzeto Te doy algunos datos y espero te sean ?tiles: El personaje barbado de la esquina derecha con un abanico en su mano derecha y un baston es identificado como Yiacatecutli, el dios gu?a, el dios de la punta, el dios de la nariz torcida , el dios que al igual que la nariz de un humano va adelante, entra primero, esta al frente. A Yiacatecutli o Yacatecutli se le identifica con el dios principal de ese grupo que se conoce como los Pochtecas, que literalmente seria los que son de la tierra de Pochtlan, la tierra de los Pochotes, forma de llamar a unos arboles de los cuales una de sus especies, y solo una de ellas es la ceiba para usar el vocablo corrupto que los espa?oles tomaronde los indios de las islas caribe?as para llamar a esos ?rboles. La ceiba es propia de las zonas costeras del golfo de M?xico y est? presente en las tierras de la peninsula de Yucat?n. Historiadores y antropologos que evidenc?an su ignorancia sobre la bot?nica han hecho de ello la base para decir que los pochtecas eran de la costa del golfo o eran mayas que habitaron en la ciudad-reyno de Tlatelolco , ciudad de M?xico. (goglea para mas informacion con el t?rmino pochtecas ) Lo que olvidan ?stos "expertos" es que en otras, existen mas especies de pochotes y que estas se encuentran en distintas regiones de M?xico de diverso entornos ecol?gicos. Ppor ejemplo hay pochotes en la Costa del Pacifico, en regiones serranas, en la llamadas Huastecas, en regiones semideserticas, en regi?n baji?, en valles intermontanos, etc. Una revisi?n de lospueblos y sitios que en M?xico llevan el nombre de Pochote o Pochutla o Puchtla o derivados y correlacionado con el tipo de ambiente y culturas prehisp?nicas que en ellos habitaron, hecha por tierras esa hipotesis oficialmente aceptada por la arqueol?g?a mexicana y los lamados mexicanistas. Esta t?sis fue creada y difundida en los a?os 40,s por el entonces estudiante Miguel Acosta Saignes. precisamente en su tesis para recibirse dedicada a los Pochtecas. Alguien que usa y retoma ?sta tesis es Isabel Bueno en Tlateloco la Gemela en la sombra (p4 del archivo pdf) descarga ese art?culo y juzgalo en este link : dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordenoo googlea con las palabras clave: pochtecas Tlateloco espa?ola Tambi?n abusiva y equivocadamente a cualquier comerciante prehisp?nico otros "expertos" le llaman pochteca, cuando una revisi?n a distintos vocabularios nahuatl espa?ol nos permite ubicar una serie de terminos para llamar a los comerciantes de los cuales s?lo unos de ellos eran pochtecas. Los pochtecas fueron y se distinguieron por ser una especifica combinaci?n de comerciantes- guerreros y por sus particulares ritos . Un comerciante sin ser a la vez guerrero y sin sus ritos espec?ficos no es pochteca, es solo un comerciante pero no es un pochteca. Para ello debes leer y sacar tus conclusiones de los apartados correspondientes de la obra del sabio Fray Bernardino de Sahag?n: Historia General de las Cosas de la Nueva espa? y el C?dice Florentino en este hay una gr?fica de Yiacatecutli El codice Fejervary es estil?stica y graficamente cercan?smo al c?dice Laud. ve este en el sitio de Famsi, sitio escritura c?dice Graz . http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/graz/#Aztec . ( Como siempre eterno agradecimiento a FAMSI por poner a nuestro alcance los c?dices) Este Laud esta dedicado al dios se?or del Mictlan. el Mictlantecutli Seler propuso en su momento que estos c?dices pod?an agruparse en el llamado "grupo de c?dices Borgia". Lee por ello la cl?sica obra de Seler: Comentarios al c?dice Borgia, existe traducci?n al espa?ol editado por la editorial mexicana FCE. Tambien puedes ver se?alamientos a las a las l?minas del Fejervary , hechas por Seler en un archivo PDF descargable de Famsi en http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/ La revista Arqueolog?a Mexicana publico una version comentada del c?dice Fejervary o Tonalamatl de los Pochtecas, comentarios hechos por el famoso mexicanista Miguel Le?n portilla . El link de esta revista a este numero especial es http://www.arqueomex.com/S9N4SumarEsp18Esp.html. Siendo muy delgado lo podras comprar en el sitio te dicen como y te lo enviaran a tu casa sin que te sea muy costoso el porte del envi?. Espero habert sido util Roberto Romero G _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Fri May 2 16:01:39 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:01:39 -0700 Subject: From Aztlan: Codex Vaticanus y Fejervary In-Reply-To: <481B251D.9060207@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: On May 2, 2008, at 7:28 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordenoo googlea > con las palabras clave: pochtecas Tlateloco espa?ola > El enlace esta... comido... Faltan unas letras y digitos aqui y alla. Aqui esta uno que da el articulo: http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordeno. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Fri May 2 16:23:19 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:23:19 -0700 Subject: From Aztlan: Codex Vaticanus y Fejervary In-Reply-To: <4713908A-F103-41EF-BAA3-5D1E87906C81@ipinc.net> Message-ID: ?Con veinte mil demonios... se comio el enlace otra vez! Veamos... Despues de codigo hay un simbolo de "igual" y dos unos. Y despues de orden un simbolo igual un uno un "&" info un simbolo igual y un "link" http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordeno. o la alternativa: http://www.ucm.es/BUCM/revistas/ghi/05566533/articulos/REAA0505110133A.PDF On May 2, 2008, at 9:01 AM, Kier Salmon wrote: > On May 2, 2008, at 7:28 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > >> >> dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordenoo googlea >> con las palabras clave: pochtecas Tlateloco espa?ola >> > El enlace esta... comido... Faltan unas letras y digitos aqui y alla. > > Aqui esta uno que da el articulo: > > http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo72090&ordeno. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From econtactt at hotmail.com Fri May 2 17:10:05 2008 From: econtactt at hotmail.com (Alberto Mendo) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 10:10:05 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Interpreter Message-ID: Hello Everyone, I received a request yesterday for a Nahuatl interpreter from the Martinez Superior Courthouse in Northern California. They are in dire need of an interpreter for a defendant in a criminal case. If anyone is interested or knows of someone who may be up for task, please contact me. Thanks, Alberto Mendo (510) 725-9801 _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_mobile_052008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tecvm at yahoo.com Fri May 2 16:11:30 2008 From: tecvm at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Diego_V=E1squez_Monterroso?=) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:11:30 -0700 Subject: Zuyua Message-ID: Hola a todos: Estoy investigando sobre las migraciones originarias en Mesoam?rica y especialmente con relaci?n al ?rea de Zuyua. No s? si conocen alguna informaci?n al respecto, o mejor aun, alg?n libro sobre las migraciones (ya sean simb?licas, legitimadoras o reales). De antemano muchas gracias. Saludos, Diego V?squez Monterroso Pensum cerrado en Arqueolog?a Universidad del Valle de Guatemala ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Deportes Beta ?No te pierdas lo ?ltimo sobre el torneo clausura 2008! Ent?rate aqu? http://deportes.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From claycarmouche at gmail.com Sat May 3 21:27:27 2008 From: claycarmouche at gmail.com (Clay Carmouche) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 17:27:27 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl translation for film Message-ID: Hello, I'm working with a film currently in production in Canada, which features Aztec characters. We have about 50 words, about 9 lines of dialog, to be translated into Nahuatl. I'm hoping someone on this list group can help or point me in the right direction. Unfortunately our deadline is rather tight. The film is already in production and the scene could come up any day. If anyone can help, please contact me anytime at 718.812.6624 or reply to claycarmouche at gmail.com Here's a link to a write up of our film: http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_thompson_nicola/kamloopsthisweek/entertainment/17587604.html Best Regards, Clay Carmouche _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue May 6 14:00:44 2008 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 10:00:44 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl word formation In-Reply-To: <20080501234635.qeo2jm0y2osgc44w@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: A very important cautionary tale, and for every language. My two centavos worth, Michael Quoting "Campbell, R Joe" : > Nocnihuan, > > One of features of Nahuatl that makes it fascinating to us is > the wealth of metaphors captured in its word formation. Words like > "acitlalin", 'dewdrop' (atl [water] - citlalin [star]) catch our > attention, please us like a well-formed phrase, and even make us > want to find more of them. > > One source of assistance in appreciating Nahuatl word formation > is J. Richard Andrews' _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_ (either > the first edition or the revised edition). It also presents us > with suggestions for analyses of words which should make us stop > and consider where sober analysis ends and where dubious > suggestions begin. > > One example is the suggestion that "te:na:nquilia:" 'he answers > someone' is derived from a source stem no longer extant, "*na:nca" > 'to act in the manner of a mother'. Most people would not object > to the idea of a productive stem which does not occur > independently (if there is no stem "xel(-li)", we might have a > difficult time accounting for "cuaxeltic", "xexeltic", "xelihui", > and "xeloa"). (A side remark: I am very wary of phrases like "no > longer" in the discussing the structure of a grammar, since I am > afraid that the user is *really* thinking of the historical > development of the language, rather than the grammar as it exists > at a given point in time.) > > "*na:nca" leaves us with two problems: > 1) we have no pattern of derivation to arrive at "te:na:nquilia:". > When we have derivations like "pi:tza" 'blow' > pi:tztli 'whistle, > something blown' > "nipi:tzoa" 'I use a whistle, I whistle', where > the processes are seen as parallel to the same processes in the > formation of other words, we have support for our trust in the > hypothesis, but here it is lacking. > 2) the semantic stretch between "mother" (i.e., act in the manner > of a mother") and "answer" *might* bear some weight if that link > were evident in other places in the language, but without that > support, one's willingness to believe fails. > > --- > > Another example is the suggestion that "te:lpo:chtli" is derived > from or related to "po:ca" 'it smokes'. Obviously, there are many > Nahuatl words with the string "po:ch" involving the application of > smoke, the act of incensing. ...but where is the semantic bridge > between "youth" and "incense". I admit that there may be one and I > would be happy to hear of credible evidence. > > --- > > These two examples are intended as an introduction to my main > topic: "ohuihcan" 'dangerous place' (and many other examples > involving danger and difficulty). In his first edition, Andrews > presented these words as being derived from an obsolete verb > "*ohuia" (note that I have abandoned long vowel marking). There > was no implication that "ohuia" might be divisable then, but in the > revised edition, the source for the well populated family of > "ohuia" word is "ohhuia" (ohtli-verb suffix) 'to be like a road, > to present danger'. > > Again, I can imagine that this is a possibility, but there is no > evidence elsewhere linking 'road' and 'danger'. Further, there is > no *clear* evidence of a "-huia" intransitive suffix meaning 'be'. > (One possibility: "coyohuia" 'they howl' [they are like coyotes]) > > It is very interesting that the element is no longer "ohuia", > but "ohhuia". While much of the material in Andrews' books rests > heavily on Carochi's grammar, his belief in the 'road' / 'danger' > relationship (without supporting parallels) motivates changing the > shape of the data. He points out that Carochi does not show a > glottal stop. But he changes his image of what the date is because > it fits his theory (based on a tightly stretched semantic > relationship). Granted, there is only one occurrence of a relevant > piece in Carochi's grammar (f53v). > > Obviously, I believe that when we describe the morphology of a > language, we should err on the side of caution. If we stretch the > semantic bridges too far, the overall description is fragile and I > worry about the expenditure of all that time on something too > easily collapsible. > > What do y'all think? > > Iztayohmeh, > > Joe > > p.s. references to Andrews are below... > > > ************* > > Andrews, revised edition > > p. 441 > ohhuihca = it is in the manner of a thing that has become > dangerous/difficult; i.e., with difficulty, with danger > > > p. 574 > ohhuia = to be like a road; i.e., to pose a danger; > to be dangerous/difficult > Carochi does not show a glottal stop closing the first syllable > > > p. 579 > ohhuiti = to have a road; i.e., to be in/face danger > Carochi does not show a glottal stop > > > *************** > > Andrews, first edition > > > p. 31 > In certain instances, the source verb is obsolete: > ohuihca* = with difficulty [Class C pret theme: > -(ohuih)0-. Compare the co-derived adjective ohuih, > "it is difficult"] > > p. 32 > The adverbials in *ca* may be negated by this procedure: > ayohuihca* ~ aohuihca* = easily, without difficulty > > p. 257 > Occasionally the source verb is no longer used: ohuih = it > is difficult [Compare (ohuih-0-ca*-yo*)-tl, "difficulty, > danger," and (ohuih-0-ca)-0, "with difficulty," both from the > same preterit theme. > > p. 322 > Itlah ohuih i*pan mochi*huaz. > = Something dangerous will happen to him. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu May 8 14:21:10 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:21:10 -0400 Subject: Diphrases Message-ID: As I age, I become forgetful. I was looking the other day for a fairly long list of the diphrases used in Nahuatl (atl + tepetl = altepetl) I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. Any clues? -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu May 8 15:26:01 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:26:01 -0500 Subject: Diphrases In-Reply-To: <48230C56.2050209@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Estimado Fritz: Apunto un pedacito de mi tesis con las referencias correspondientes. No s? si alguna de ?stas sea la que tienes en mente. Saludos, David ****************************** Garibay (1999: 115, 116) define ?difrasismo? como ?un procedimiento que consiste en expresar una misma idea por medio de dos vocablos que se completan en el sentido, ya sea por ser sin?nimos, ya por ser adyacentes?. Sobre los difrasismos en general y su uso en el idioma n?huatl, v?anse Bright, 1990; Montes de Oca, 2001. Referencias: Garibay Kintana, ?ngel Mar?a, Llave del n?huatl, colecciones de trozos cl?sicos, con gram?tica y vocabulario nahuatl-castellano, para utilidad de principiantes, 7a. ed., M?xico, Editorial Porr?a, 1999. Bright, William, ??With one lip, with two lips?: parallelism in Nahuatl?, en Language (Linguistic Society of America), vol. 66, no. 3, 1990, pp. 437-452. Montes de Oca, Mercedes, ?Los difrasismos en el n?huatl: una aproximaci?n ling??stica?, en Avances y balances de lenguas yutoaztecas, homenaje a Wick R. Miller, Jos? Luis Moctezuma Zamarr?n y Jane H. Hill, editores, M?xico, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 2001, pp. 387-397. ****************************** -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de John F. Schwaller Enviado el: jueves, 08 de mayo de 2008 09:21 Para: Nahuat-l ((messages)) Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Diphrases As I age, I become forgetful. I was looking the other day for a fairly long list of the diphrases used in Nahuatl (atl + tepetl cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. Any clues? _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu May 8 16:14:18 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:14:18 -0400 Subject: Diphrases Message-ID: (I accidentally sent this privately, but thought it would of general interest. Incidentally, I have since seen David's contribution and would note that his sources might be more accessible than Mercedes' thesis.) A clue: Mercedes Montes de Oca Vega, Los Difrasismos en el Nahuatl del Siglo XVI. (her thesis in 2000 at the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico) Joe p.s. ...play it Sam... you played it for her... you can play it for me. Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > > As I age, I become forgetful. I was looking the other day for a fairly > long list of the diphrases used in Nahuatl (atl + tepetl = altepetl) I > cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. > > Any clues? > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > ____ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Tlaloc at umd.edu Thu May 8 17:47:50 2008 From: Tlaloc at umd.edu (John B. Carlson) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 13:47:50 -0400 Subject: Diphrases In-Reply-To: <20080508121418.4apg32h4gsgcwgcg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, Joe and everyone, I am also very interested in this topic and have been for a long time. To add to the list, there was a good discussion with many examples in: Of the Manners of Speaking That the Old Ones Had: The Metaphors of Andres De Olmos in the Tulal Manuscript Arte Para Aprender LA Lengua Mexicana, 15 (Hardcover) by Judith M. Maxwell (Author), Craig A. Hanson (Author) # Hardcover: 438 pages # Publisher: Univ of Utah Pr (Tx) (December 1992) # Language: English # ISBN-10: 0874803691 # ISBN-13: 978-0874803693 Joe, Is there a good way to get a copy, in some form, of the Montes de Oca Vega thesis (2000)? Is it around or on line as a PDF? If so, I would love to get a copy. It sounds like a great resource and worthy of citation. Thanks, John At 12:14 PM -0400 5/8/08, Campbell, R Joe wrote: >(I accidentally sent this privately, but thought it would of general interest. >Incidentally, I have since seen David's contribution and would note >that his sources might be more accessible than Mercedes' thesis.) > >A clue: > >Mercedes Montes de Oca Vega, Los Difrasismos en el Nahuatl del Siglo XVI. >(her thesis in 2000 at the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico) > >Joe > >p.s. ...play it Sam... you played it for her... you can play it for me. > >Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > >> >> As I age, I become forgetful. I was looking the other day for a fairly >> long list of the diphrases used in Nahuatl (atl + tepetl = altepetl) I >> cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. >> >> Any clues? >> >> -- >> ***************************** >> John F. Schwaller >> President >> SUNY - Potsdam >> 44 Pierrepont Ave. >> Potsdam, NY 13676 >> Tel. 315-267-2100 >> FAX 315-267-2496 >> >> ____ > >_______________________________________________ >Nahuatl mailing list >Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -- ***************************************** John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director The Center for Archaeoastronomy P. O. Box "X" College Park, MD 20741-3022 USA (301) 864-6637 office {fax by arrangement} http://www.archaeoastronomy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu May 8 17:55:29 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 13:55:29 -0400 Subject: Diphrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Indeed. I just double checked. I think that I was remembering pp. 36-39 of Maxwell and Hanson. John B. Carlson wrote: > > > Fritz, Joe and everyone, > > I am also very interested in this topic and have been for a long time. > To add to the list, there was a good discussion with many examples in: > > Of the Manners of Speaking That the Old Ones Had: The Metaphors of > Andres De Olmos in the Tulal Manuscript Arte Para Aprender LA Lengua > Mexicana, 15 (Hardcover) > by Judith M. Maxwell (Author), Craig A. Hanson (Author) > > # Hardcover: 438 pages > # Publisher: Univ of Utah Pr (Tx) (December 1992) > # Language: English > # ISBN-10: 0874803691 > # ISBN-13: 978-0874803693 > >> >> > >> > ____ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > -- > > ***************************************** > > John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director > The Center for Archaeoastronomy > P. O. Box "X" > College Park, MD 20741-3022 USA > (301) 864-6637 office {fax by arrangement} > http://www.archaeoastronomy.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mercemo at correo.unam.mx Thu May 8 18:12:51 2008 From: mercemo at correo.unam.mx (Mar=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C3=ADa?= Montes) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 13:12:51 -0500 Subject: Diphrases In-Reply-To: <48233E91.5030201@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Hi My thesis is available in PDF in the UNAM web page but is available only to UNAM students and professors. I could try to send a copy if anyone is interested. Mercedes Montes de Oca p.s thanks Joe Mensaje citado por: "John F. Schwaller" : > Indeed. I just double checked. I think that I was remembering pp. > 36-39 of Maxwell and Hanson. > > > > John B. Carlson wrote: > > > > > > Fritz, Joe and everyone, > > > > I am also very interested in this topic and have been for a long time. > > > To add to the list, there was a good discussion with many examples > in: > > > > Of the Manners of Speaking That the Old Ones Had: The Metaphors of > > Andres De Olmos in the Tulal Manuscript Arte Para Aprender LA Lengua > > Mexicana, 15 (Hardcover) > > by Judith M. Maxwell (Author), Craig A. Hanson (Author) > > > > # Hardcover: 438 pages > > # Publisher: Univ of Utah Pr (Tx) (December 1992) > > # Language: English > > # ISBN-10: 0874803691 > > # ISBN-13: 978-0874803693 > > > >> > >> > > >> > ____ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > -- > > > > ***************************************** > > > > John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director > > The Center for Archaeoastronomy > > P. O. Box "X" > > College Park, MD 20741-3022 USA > > (301) 864-6637 office {fax by arrangement} > > http://www.archaeoastronomy.net > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > Dra. Mercedes Montes de Oca Vega Seminario de Lenguas Ind?genas Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas Circuito Mario e la Cueva s/n UNAM 04510 M?xico, D.F Tel 56227489 FAX 56227495 ------------------------------------------------- www.correo.unam.mx UNAMonos Comunic?ndonos _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From anava_esp at yahoo.es Wed May 14 14:19:22 2008 From: anava_esp at yahoo.es (Atanacio Nava) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 07:19:22 -0700 Subject: Algo de poesa nahuatl Message-ID: Dear listeros, Aqu? algo de poes?a nahuatl http://revistaalternativa.org/numeros/no13/cd_nahuatl13.html Hasta pronto Nava ______________________________________________ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada m?s inteligente. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oenthomas at gmail.com Wed May 14 18:17:08 2008 From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 13:17:08 -0500 Subject: Searching for source. Message-ID: I would appreciate if anyone can tell me the source of the document from which I copy the introduction. I would like to use this file for teaching Nahuatk in English but I will need permission of the author to edit into English. Owen Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oenthomas at gmail.com Wed May 14 21:34:42 2008 From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 16:34:42 -0500 Subject: Searching for source. In-Reply-To: <1dde854d0805141117r2ba0c2e1p2e66176af1a66fe0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I would appreciate if anyone can tell me the source of the document from which I copy the introduction. I would like to use this file for teaching Nahuatk in English but I will need permission of the author to edit into English. This is the link to where I have placed the introduction to this unknown document: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d7b4c3p_96g94svpc8 I apologize for omitting the link in my first attempt. Owen Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oenthomas at gmail.com Thu May 15 12:36:51 2008 From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 07:36:51 -0500 Subject: helpidentify source of this lesson Message-ID: Listeros, I have a lesson captured from the web and want to know if it is copyrighted or who wrote it. Can anyone recognize the author? The beginning of first lesson is pasted: *#4. El sustantivo * puede tener una de las siguientes terminaciones: -tl, -tli, -li o -in. Se usar?n los siguientes sustantivos en las primeras lecciones. Memorizar: am?xtli : libro ocu?llin : gusano ?tl : agua p?tlatl :petate c?lli : casa p?lli ni?o c?htli : abuela t?htli : padre c?huatl : mujer tec?lotl : buho c?atl : serpiente teop?ntli : iglesia c?lli : abuel tep?lcatl : loza com?lli : cenicero t?tl : piedra itzcu?ntli : perro tianqu?ztli : mercado m?zatl : venado tl?catl : hombre m?catl : cord?n tl?lli : tierra m?chin : pescado tlaxc?lli : tortilla n?ntli : madre t?chtli : conejo x?lli : arena y?tl : frijol *#5. * En las primeras lecciones tambi?n se utilizar?n las palabras que siguen: ?mo : no ?pan : en, sobre c? : est? ?tic : dentro de ?c?mpa? : ?d?nde? n?hui : cuatro c?teh : est?n n?can : aqu? c? : un, uno, una ?me : dos ?huan : y ompa : all? ?n : ?l, la qu?ma : s? ?nin : este, esta y?yi : tres -- We are connected Look at this, http://oenthomas.blogspot.com Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Thu May 15 18:59:45 2008 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2 at cox.net) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:59:45 -0700 Subject: Danza Azteca online survey: Pass it on to any danzantes you may know.... THANKS!!!! Message-ID: Piali nohuampohuan, My name is Mario E. Aguilar and I am the Capit?n of Danza Mexi'cayotl. I have been a danzante/musico indigena since 1973. I am working on my dissertation and I need your help. My dissertation is titled: La Danza Azteca: its roots, its arrival in Aztlan, and its impact on Chicano/a Identity and sacred space. I am trying to understand the many different reasons Chicanos/as become danzantes, and how it feels to be a danzante. Your answers will be confidential and I will not disclose to anyone any follow up correspondence/communication you may want with me Once you finish the survey, you will be eligible to participate in the optional raffle for two $50 gift certificates at the Ces?r E. Ch?vez Foundation website: http://www.chavezfoundation.org/zencart/ Click here to start the survey: *https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=aVVIPQKT9H1kdOVGgusaog_3d_3d* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Sat May 17 20:37:28 2008 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 15:37:28 -0500 Subject: Advice on jobsearch in Mexico requested Message-ID: Hi Listers I have recently graduated with an MA in Mesoamerican cultures and linguistics from the University of Copenhagen, specialising in Classical Nahuatl and modern Morelos Nahuatl. Now my wife and I have decided to settle in Mexico, her patria. I have spent time doing fieldwork in Mexico, but the jobmarket here is all new to me, and I don't kno how to begi looking. I assume that just showing up at the doorsep of an educational institution with a diploma is not the correct way to do it. However, I know that some of you who follow the list are foreigners working in Mexico and I'd appreciate any advice you might have as to how a nahuatlatoh hunts down a job here. Regards Magnus Parao Hasen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Sat May 17 21:35:30 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 14:35:30 -0700 Subject: Advice on jobsearch in Mexico requested In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I lived in Mexico. Grew up there as a foreign national. You need an FM2, and as you are married to a mexican woman, then you might get it early. Most of us have to live 5 years in the country without working to get the FM2. You cannot work without the FM2 unless the hiring agency petitions for a special job permit in which they must show that you have abilities without which they cannot function and that aren't obtainable from the present job pool of mexicans. So, when you go looking for a job... you can apply!... just make sure they understand you are "tramitando mi FM2" and that you will have to be hired with all the work that Gebernaci?n demands from the hiring agency. Headcount with salary ranges and a few other documents. So, you can job hunt and look and interview, but only accept if Gobernaci?n gives you the go ahead. And if you have kids, register them at once for their FM2. I have a friend who was born in the US and her parents took her in on a tourist visa and never regularized her status. After four years of university work 15 years later she was denied her "titulo" because as a foreigner she had obtained her education fradulently. Foreigners pay more for the universities. Get the kids regularized both from your country and theirs... it's really important. Also, check the restrictions. Probably won't matter to you; but still is a good idea to KNOW what they are. As I recall, foreigners are not allowed to work in teh restaurant industry... or the sex trade. (Item, in my days prostitution was legal, "leocinio" pimping was not.) On May 17, 2008, at 1:37 PM, magnus hansen wrote: > Hi Listers > > I have recently graduated with an MA in Mesoamerican cultures and > linguistics from the University of Copenhagen, specialising in > Classical Nahuatl and modern Morelos Nahuatl. Now my wife and I have > decided to settle in Mexico, her patria. I have spent time doing > fieldwork in Mexico, but the jobmarket here is all new to me, and I > don't kno how to begi looking. I assume that just showing up at the > doorsep of an educational institution with a diploma is not the > correct way to do it. However, I know that some of you who follow > the list are foreigners working in Mexico and I'd appreciate any > advice you might have as to how a nahuatlatoh hunts down a job here. > > Regards > > Magnus Parao Hasen > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dgloster at web.de Tue May 20 14:38:41 2008 From: dgloster at web.de (dgloster at web.de) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 16:38:41 +0200 Subject: helpidentify source of this lesson Message-ID: Dear Owen, I found the PDF document on the internet (Google search for first line). It was on the website of the University of Bologna, Italy homepage: http://www.facli.unibo.it/Lingue/default.htm After a right mouse click on the document, and the link "document properties" the author of the document is identified as: Giovanni Marchetti a professor in the department of Modern Foreign Languages and Literature. Here's the link with his details (address, phone no., etc): http://www.unibo.it/Portale/Strumenti+del+Portale/Cerca/paginaWebDocente.htm?UPN=giovanni.marchetti at unibo.it He apparently conducts courses in Spanish (in case you don't speak Italian and he doesn't speak English!) I hope this gets you a bit further. Best regards, David Gloster Unterhaching, near Munich, Germany -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: "Owen Thomas" Gesendet: 15.05.08 14:43:09 An: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Betreff: [Nahuat-l] helpidentify source of this lesson Listeros, I have a lesson captured from the web and want to know if it is copyrighted or who wrote it. Can anyone recognize the author? The beginning of first lesson is pasted: *#4. El sustantivo * puede tener una de las siguientes terminaciones: -tl, -tli, -li o -in. Se usar?n los siguientes sustantivos en las primeras lecciones. Memorizar: am?xtli : libro ocu?llin : gusano ?tl : agua p?tlatl :petate c?lli : casa p?lli ni?o c?htli : abuela t?htli : padre c?huatl : mujer tec?lotl : buho c?atl : serpiente teop?ntli : iglesia c?lli : abuel tep?lcatl : loza com?lli : cenicero t?tl : piedra itzcu?ntli : perro tianqu?ztli : mercado m?zatl : venado tl?catl : hombre m?catl : cord?n tl?lli : tierra m?chin : pescado tlaxc?lli : tortilla n?ntli : madre t?chtli : conejo x?lli : arena y?tl : frijol *#5. * En las primeras lecciones tambi?n se utilizar?n las palabras que siguen: ?mo : no ?pan : en, sobre c? : est? ?tic : dentro de ?c?mpa? : ?d?nde? n?hui : cuatro c?teh : est?n n?can : aqu? c? : un, uno, una ?me : dos ?huan : y ompa : all? ?n : ?l, la qu?ma : s? ?nin : este, esta y?yi : tres -- We are connected Look at this, http://oenthomas.blogspot.com Owen_______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/ nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: David Gloster.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 267 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From david_becraft at hotmail.com Tue May 20 15:52:39 2008 From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 08:52:39 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: <3E7F3FED-0119-1000-F3BD-6EB30AC8BA66-Webmail-10012@mac.com> Message-ID: Listeros, I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? Pancho ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > Listeros. > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been decapitated. > > Living in Peru has the story here; > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source?aterGood _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Tue May 20 16:21:51 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 09:21:51 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I understand it pieces of the body were distributed to the warriors who caught them and the bones were hung in individual houses. Other corpses were thrown into the lake. The lake was a very active ecosystem and it took the massive plagues of 1521 to oveyrwhealm it with bodies. Therefore there wouldn't have been mass grave dumps like we see in modern genocidal atrocities. If I recall correctly the heads were hung by a specific lock of hair until they rotted out, boiled and stacked along the pyramid sides, exposed to the elements. I will go out on a limb here and do a thought experiment: I think that when the temples were rebuilt (which happened every 30-50 years) the bones and skulls were ground up and used to make the new temple. I'm not sure how much material would be identifiable from 2000, 1500, 500 years ago to tell us how many skulls and bones were used in the mortar. The mass sacrifices have caused controversy back and forth for centuries, now. I've read that the aztecs just used round numbers and didn't really sacrifice the numbers in the codices (in defiance to the very precise numbers used in surveying and tribute!) I've read that we should trust both the old priests (who were notorious for re- writing the histories and burning the old books) and trust the new priests, who very much wanted to show how necessary the whole christian conversion thing was and that we should bring logic to the question. So using logic... Tenochtitlan was an island, heavily-densely populated. I've seen the pictures of the wrapped dead and read that they were each buried under the hearth of the small houses. (No concept of graveyards.) The nobles were burned or interred under their palaces in small chambers. So no cemeteries as we would recognize them today, and the idea that the dead should be buried by their families. THey also had this idea that the sacrifice was unfortunate and couldn't escape his fate to die far from his home. Lack of buriel would probably be a logical consequence of that thought process. Where would they *bury* the bodies? And why? Another point to the logic level is the lack of digging tools. They had wood, flint and stone. Digging the hard, stoney earth of M?xico with just those is quite a labor. Would they dig pits to hurl their dead sacrifices into, all that labor? Maybe, but with the lake right there and the codices making it clear that the captor of the sacrifice had the right to certain body parts and the use of the thighbones hanging in the houses as protective charms for the man in battle, I can't see a need for graves. Or any way to substantiate or discredit the numbers the source documents quote. On May 20, 2008, at 8:52 AM, David Becraft wrote: > > > Listeros, > > I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence > supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to > 1521. Have there been any major archaeological findings that have > uncovered the number of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in > the hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions. I know that there > have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but has the number ever been > higher than a thousand? > > Pancho > > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 >> From: michaelruggeri at mac.com >> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA >> >> >> >> Listeros. >> >> 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient >> urban area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are >> sacrificed individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. >> One had been decapitated. >> >> Living in Peru has the story here; >> http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site >> >> >> Mike Ruggeri >> >> >> Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links >> http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html >> _______________________________________________ >> Aztlan mailing list >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan >> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >> Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source?aterGood > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gregory_sandor at hotmail.com Tue May 20 17:04:12 2008 From: gregory_sandor at hotmail.com (Greg Sandor) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:04:12 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Message-ID: Is there a way to determine from the chemical composition of lime in mortar whether it was made from human bones? Regards, Greg (614) 517-7204 greg at gregsandor.com http://www.gregsandor.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Becraft" To: "MICHAEL RUGGERI" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Listeros, I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? Pancho ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > Listeros. > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban > area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed > individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been > decapitated. > > Living in Peru has the story here; > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source_______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Tue May 20 17:08:06 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:08:06 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't lime caustic? The only way to determine it would be if human bone had a different calcium ratio to sea shells or animal bone or DNA. If lime is caustic then there is little chance enough DNA survived to make the distinction. On May 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Greg Sandor wrote: > Is there a way to determine from the chemical composition of lime in > mortar > whether it was made from human bones? > > Regards, > > Greg > > (614) 517-7204 > greg at gregsandor.com > http://www.gregsandor.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Becraft" > To: "MICHAEL RUGGERI" ; >; > > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT > BANDURRIA > > > > > Listeros, > > I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence > supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to > 1521. Have > there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the > number > of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of > thousands, or > maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 > or so, > but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? > > Pancho > > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 >> From: michaelruggeri at mac.com >> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA >> >> >> >> Listeros. >> >> 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient >> urban >> area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed >> individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been >> decapitated. >> >> Living in Peru has the story here; >> http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site >> >> >> Mike Ruggeri >> >> >> Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links >> http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html >> _______________________________________________ >> Aztlan mailing list >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan >> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >> Click to view Calendar of Events >> http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source_______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From bortiz at earthlink.net Tue May 20 17:38:59 2008 From: bortiz at earthlink.net (bernard Ortiz de Montellano) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:38:59 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Message-ID: N?j???????????jw??h?????^~?&q?\?????)??^?X?z)???Z?+jW"?hrv?1?????j?????:???v?1?,j?????Z????z???j'?O?jY?????w?????'????m??M Message-ID: So it would be possible with a chemical analysis to determine if human bone content is around the templo mayor. On the other hand, given the slaughter and illness in the last days, would it be possible to distinguish layers by date? On May 20, 2008, at 10:38 AM, bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote: > They are different subtances, Bone is made from calcium phosphate, > lime in mortar is calcium hydroxide. > > Bernard > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Kier Salmon >> Sent: May 20, 2008 1:08 PM >> To: Greg Sandor >> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org, aztlan at lists.famsi.org, MICHAEL >> RUGGERI >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT >> BANDURRIA >> >> Isn't lime caustic? The only way to determine it would be if human >> bone had a different calcium ratio to sea shells or animal bone or >> DNA. If lime is caustic then there is little chance enough DNA >> survived to make the distinction. >> >> >> On May 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Greg Sandor wrote: >> >>> Is there a way to determine from the chemical composition of lime in >>> mortar >>> whether it was made from human bones? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> (614) 517-7204 >>> greg at gregsandor.com >>> http://www.gregsandor.com >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "David Becraft" >>> To: "MICHAEL RUGGERI" ; >>> ; >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT >>> BANDURRIA >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Listeros, >>> >>> I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence >>> supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to >>> 1521. Have >>> there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the >>> number >>> of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of >>> thousands, or >>> maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 >>> or so, >>> but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? >>> >>> Pancho >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>>> Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 >>>> From: michaelruggeri at mac.com >>>> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >>>> Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Listeros. >>>> >>>> 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient >>>> urban >>>> area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed >>>> individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had >>>> been >>>> decapitated. >>>> >>>> Living in Peru has the story here; >>>> http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Ruggeri >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links >>>> http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aztlan mailing list >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan >>>> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >>>> Click to view Calendar of Events >>>> http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> E-mail for the greater good. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. >>> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source_______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue May 20 18:11:22 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:11:22 -0500 Subject: Sacrificed individuals Message-ID: On May 20, 2008, at 10:38 AM, bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote: > They are different subtances, Bone is made from calcium phosphate, > lime in mortar is calcium hydroxide. > > Bernard Limestone and seashells (the latter used at the Maya ruins at Comalcalco) are calcium carbonate, which is heated to produce quicklime (calcium oxide). The quicklime is slaked under water to produce lime mortar (calcium hydroxide). When the mortar sets it becomes stucco (calcium carbonate again; the cycle is complete). Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From huehueteot at aol.com Tue May 20 18:18:52 2008 From: huehueteot at aol.com (huehueteot at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 14:18:52 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David and all: I have seen discussions about the Tzompantli or skull rack that was described at the time of the Conquest (I know the Spaniards had plenty of reasons to lie about what they saw) as having anywhere from 100,000 to 300,000 skulls in it.? The descriptions of the dedication of the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan (regardless of what you think of the actual statistics) lasted for a multi day period and during that the sacrificing went on 24/7.? I don't know that there is any way to find what the actual numbers were but they were not minuscule. Cheers, Hugh G. "Sam" Ball And remember: "This too Shall Pass! -----Original Message----- From: David Becraft To: MICHAEL RUGGERI ; aztlan at lists.famsi.org; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tue, 20 May 2008 9:52 am Subject: Re: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Listeros, I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? Pancho ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > Listeros. > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been decapitated. > > Living in Peru has the story here; > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ GreaterGood _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gregory_sandor at hotmail.com Tue May 20 19:00:52 2008 From: gregory_sandor at hotmail.com (Greg Sandor) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:00:52 -0400 Subject: Sacrificed individuals Message-ID: So would the prescense of calcium phosphate in mortar indicate bone? On May 20, 2008, at 10:38 AM, bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote: > They are different subtances, Bone is made from calcium phosphate, > lime in mortar is calcium hydroxide. > > Bernard Limestone and seashells (the latter used at the Maya ruins at Comalcalco) are calcium carbonate, which is heated to produce quicklime (calcium oxide). The quicklime is slaked under water to produce lime mortar (calcium hydroxide). When the mortar sets it becomes stucco (calcium carbonate again; the cycle is complete). Saludos, David Wright ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue May 20 18:53:40 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:53:40 -0500 Subject: Turquoise diadem Message-ID: Listeros: I?m editing a volume of conference proceedings. At the risk of ruffling some feathers, I?m applying a unified orthography to all of the words in Nahuatl. One paper is about the royal turquoise diadem. The author calls it xiuhuitzolli. I can?t use this spelling because of the uhu secuence, considering that hu and uh are digraphs for /w/, and u alone is either an allophone of /o/ or /w/ written without the h. I can?t find this n?huatl word in the Sahagun texts, which are usually so good about naming articles of clothing, adornments, insignia and attributes. Simeon gives xiuhuitzolli. Seler uses this term, with the same spelling, in a few articles. So I?ve been on the horns of a dilemma, stuck between xiuhhuitzolli and xihuitzolli. The first one, xiuhhuitzolli, following Simeon?s flawed etymology of xihuitl (turquoise) (minus the -tl suffix minus the weak ?i?) + huitzo (spiny thing, which Simeon thought was an adjective) doesn?t really work, because of the -li suffix; the root would have to be huitzol, which I don?t find anywhere; with huitzo (or huitzoh) the suffix would have to be -tl (or -tli). The second, xihuitzolli (xihuitzo:lli) seems more reasonable. Wolf uses it in his comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary, basing his entry on Simeon?s but fixing the weird spelling. Andrews, in the workbook of the second edition of his grammar, includes a noun tzo:lli with a meaning similar to Molina?s gloss of the verb tzoloa (tzo:loa:) (?estrechar o ensangostar algo?). I haven?t found tzo:lli standing alone anywhere else. I?m thinking now that I?ll change the spelling to xihuitzolli and add an editor?s note explaining why. Of course the author will have the final decision, but I thought I?d run this by the experts at Nahuat-l first. My biggest remaining doubt concerns the relation of the hypothetical noun tzo:lli to the verb tzo:loa:. Following the usual process of derivation, a noun derived from tzo:loa: should be tzo:lo:lli: (tzo:loa: minus a:) (o lengthens to o: to compensate for loss of long vowel a:) + (passive voice suffix -lo: minus o:) plus absolutive suffix -li = tzo:lo:lli. An analogous process can be seen in the deverbal noun tlahcuilo:lli (?something written/painted?), derived from the verb tlahcuiloa: (write/paint something) (tla plus ihcuiloa: minus weak initial i). Thanks for bearing with me this far. My two main questions are: (1) Can anyone give me a reference for an early colonial period use of any nahuatl word for the turquoise diadem? (2) What about tzo:lli as a noun related to tzo:loa:, in spite of the omission of the expected syllable lo:? Are there similar cases? Thanks, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue May 20 19:00:02 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 14:00:02 -0500 Subject: Sacrificed individuals Message-ID: > So would the prescense of calcium phosphate in mortar indicate bone? We need a specialist here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From blobjois at gmail.com Tue May 20 19:03:37 2008 From: blobjois at gmail.com (Bertrand Lobjois) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 14:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: <8CA88BD1730481E-FC0-10B@webmail-nd18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: *There are two specialists about the aztec sacrifice : * 1. *Michel Graulich who recently published "The Human Sacrifice among the Aztecs" (2005). The (french) book was translated to spanish.* 2. *Yollotl Gonzales who proposed a re-edition of her book last year (2007).* *You can get them easily on Amazon... Bertrand* 2008/5/20 : > > David and all: > > I have seen discussions about the Tzompantli or skull rack that was > described at the time of the Conquest (I know the Spaniards had plenty of > reasons to lie about what they saw) as having anywhere from 100,000 to > 300,000 skulls in it.? The descriptions of the dedication of the Templo > Mayor in Tenochtitlan (regardless of what you think of the actual > statistics) lasted for a multi day period and during that the sacrificing > went on 24/7.? I don't know that there is any way to find what the actual > numbers were but they were not minuscule. > > Cheers, > > > > > > Hugh G. "Sam" Ball > > And remember: > > "This too Shall Pass! > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Becraft > To: MICHAEL RUGGERI ; aztlan at lists.famsi.org; > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Sent: Tue, 20 May 2008 9:52 am > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > > > > > > > > > > Listeros, > > I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence > supporting > the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have there been > any > major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number of people > sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or maybe > millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but > has the > number ever been higher than a thousand? > > Pancho > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > > > > > Listeros. > > > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban > area > in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed individuals. > Parts of > skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been decapitated. > > > > Living in Peru has the story here; > > > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-remains-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > > > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > > Aztlan mailing list > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > Click to view Calendar of Events > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_GreaterGood > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > > -- http://cacalotl.blogspot.com Un blog arch?ologique en fran?ais sur la M?soam?rique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue May 20 22:54:08 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 17:54:08 -0500 Subject: Turquiose diadem Message-ID: P.S. Here?s a reference to the turquoise diadem from the Florentine Codex (vol. 1, libro 2, capitulo 37, f. 154v [vol. pagination], f. 100v [book pagination]; Dibble & Anderson, book 2, p. 164). ?[...] ocontlali xiuhvitzolli, in tlatocaiotl?. So Sahagun?s Nahuatl-speaking scholars give the same spelling as Simeon and Seler; of course, the v is an allograph of the graph (letter) u, in this case representing the semiconsonant /w/. The next question is how the Sahagun people used the sequence uhu in other contexts. A search in Joe Campbell?s Florentine Codex Vocabulary for the string uhu only turns up ?cuauhuitztli. thorn stick?. Joe has standardized spelling here, so I suspect that this is an oversight and should be cuauhhuitztli (/kwawwitstli/). Here uhu is /ww/. Another search, this time in Marc Eisinger?s Index Lexical du texte Nahuatl du Codex de Florence (on Sup-Infor), produces a short list: juhuj, quauhuitztli, quitecozauhuia, tlayiauhujlli, tlatlacuhujtectli, xiuhuitzili. The j?s, of course, can be written as i?s, being allographs of the same graph (letter) in the Nahuatl texts of the Florentine Codex. The first one, iuhui, is interesting, as it appears that the intent was to write the particle ihui (?thus, like, in this manner?). This would support the possibility that ?xiuhuitzolli? was written to express the word xihuitzolli, since in one other instance the graphic sequence iuhui seems to express the phonemic sequence /iwi/, rather than /iwwi/. The word ?iuhui? appears in this phrase: ?yn iuhui cencan quitocatiuh? (vol. 1, libro 1, cap?tulo 12, f. 21r [vol.], f. 9r [libro]; Dibble & Anderson, book 1, p. 25 [last line]). On the other hand, in the list from Eisinger, uhu usually appears in words with the phonemic sequence /ww/, so I can?t rule out xiuhhuitzolli. Can anyone see a way to break down xiuhhuitzolli into a meaningful compound noun? I still think I should go with xihuitzolli, but I?m swimming upstream here, against hallowed tradition, so I?m making a last effort to conform. - David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed May 21 05:41:59 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 01:41:59 -0400 Subject: Turquiose diadem comment 1 In-Reply-To: <343E172F57404746BA52DEBFC301D975@DW1> Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: david01.doc Type: application/msword Size: 3700 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed May 21 05:43:04 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 01:43:04 -0400 Subject: Turquiose diadem comment 2 In-Reply-To: <343E172F57404746BA52DEBFC301D975@DW1> Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: david03.doc Type: application/msword Size: 17051 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk Tue May 20 21:53:00 2008 From: wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk (wswilcox) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 22:53:00 +0100 Subject: turquoise diadem Message-ID: Molina has xiuhuitzolli, crown with precious stones. This has to be xiuh-uitzolli, since he always uses simple u/v for w- (and -uh for -w) A verb huitzoa is attested in yacauitzoa - to sharpen a point. This would give huitzo:lli for something pointed, presumably also something with points, i.e. a crown -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From poe at sonoma.edu Wed May 21 04:14:35 2008 From: poe at sonoma.edu (Wm. Clay Poe) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 21:14:35 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quicklime (CaO) is produced by heating Calcium carbonate (CaCO3), to about 700 degrees centigrade at which point the CaCO3 dissociates into CaO and CO2. When the CaO is slaked, mixed with water, it hydrates and becomes Calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2. Over time the Calcium hydroxide absorbs CO2 from the atmosphere and becomes, once again, Calcium carbonate. This process takes a very long time to complete and gives rise to comments about the superior hardness of Roman cement. You just need to give it a couple of thousand years. Human bone is mostly Calcium phosphate. Only about 7% is Calcium carbonate. Human bone would not be a good choice for the source of quicklime. Regards, Bill Wm. Clay Poe, Ph.D., RPA Professor of Archaeology Sonoma State University Rohnert Park, CA 94928 (707) 480-9251 -----Original Message----- From: Greg Sandor [mailto:gregory_sandor at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 10:04 AM To: David Becraft; MICHAEL RUGGERI; aztlan at lists.famsi.org; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Aztlan] [Nahuat-l] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Is there a way to determine from the chemical composition of lime in mortar whether it was made from human bones? Regards, Greg (614) 517-7204 greg at gregsandor.com http://www.gregsandor.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Becraft" To: "MICHAEL RUGGERI" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA Listeros, I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? Pancho ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > Listeros. > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban > area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed > individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been > decapitated. > > Living in Peru has the story here; > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-rema ins-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=L_WL_ GreaterGood _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed May 21 15:18:06 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 10:18:06 -0500 Subject: turquoise diadem In-Reply-To: <1B7AA4FF56B246A2ACFAE02DEAD23F99@WILLY1> Message-ID: Huitzoa. Thanks, that's great. I knew somebody would come up with something good. I just went through the "xiu..." section of Molina's 1571 mexicano-castellano vocabulary (several times) and the "corona" parts of the 1555 and 1571 castellano-mexicano vocabularies without finding xiuhuitzolli. Can you point me in the right direction? His Arte perhaps? _____ De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de wswilcox Enviado el: martes, 20 de mayo de 2008 16:53 Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] turquoise diadem Molina has xiuhuitzolli, crown with precious stones. This has to be xiuh-uitzolli, since he always uses simple u/v for w- (and -uh for -w) A verb huitzoa is attested in yacauitzoa - to sharpen a point. This would give huitzo:lli for something pointed, presumably also something with points, i.e. a crown -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed May 21 19:04:47 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 15:04:47 -0400 Subject: Turquoise diadem comment 1 (repeat) In-Reply-To: <20080521014159.ytc1ze7ncws4skcs@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Nocnihuan, This is a repeat of the first of my previous messages, which I accidentally sent as an attachment. This should be easier to handle. I will do the same with Comment 2. ************************************ David, Your "turquoise diadem" problem lit up my interest, first because of the "tzol", but the /w/ + /w/ issue is more general, so, con tu permiso, I'll go there first. Just some background from Andrews (revised edition): (I'll use ':' for vowel length) p. 36: /w/ + /w/ > [w] The first /w/, which is voiceless, is lost. cua:uh- + -huah > cua:huah p. 120: my eagles nocua:hua:n [for no-cua:uh-hua:n rjc] p. 375: cuauh-hua:-tz-a-l-li (no comment on pronunciation, or, for that matter, no comment on proper spelling, since the point of the example is to show the structure of the word) p. 469: cuauhhua:tzaltzonco [also spelled cuahua:tzaltzonco] -- Andrews comment - - - - - - - - - If the non-hyphenated words represent a suggested spelling, then it is not clear that Andrews would insist on *phonetic* spelling. Since pronunciation tends to vary over the several places that a language is spoken, it would be chaotic to have a spelling system for each dialect, varying from village to village, merely because of minor phonetic differences. The ideal spelling system is at least phonological (phonemic), even morphophonemic (making the morphological structure more clear). If it is true that a sequence of two /w/'s reduced phonetically to a single [w], it would not be wise to take this reduction into account in spelling, since that would mean that nitecuauhhuitequi (dar de palos) and nitecuahuitequi (descalabrar) would not be distinguished in spelling, even though one word involved the morpheme 'cuahuitl' and the other 'cua:itl'. Obviously, it would still be possible to spell sequences of /ww/ either as 'uhhu' or 'uhu', since 'uhu' is unambiguous. Since the 'hu' represents /w/, the syllable-final 'u' (e.g., nitecuauhuitequi) would clearly represent a preceding /w/. This should cause no more confusion than the slight early problem when students are faced with: nitlahuichuia (I hoe with a huictli) nitlaneuchuia (I sweeten something) Their acceptance that 'hu' spells /w/ is enough to make it unambiguous that the phoneme preceding the /w/ is /k/ and /kw/, respectively. --They stop seeing 'ch' as a unit. David, taking your suggestion, I searched some of the relevant data in the Molina/Florentine material. In spite of the logical *possibility* of a 'uhu' spelling, I agree with you that the 'uhhu' spelling is preferable, but it was obvious in my search -that- some chaos reigns there, but I intend to mend my ways. Below, I have listed some relevant examples from Molina. My regularized forms are on the left and Molina's original forms are on the right. His prefixes are marked with an 'The location of his entries are given with folio number and column. M1 M5 cuacuauhhuia, nite-: quaquauhuia cornada dar cuacuauhhuiliztli, te-: tequaquauhuiliztli. 71m1-30v1 cornada de toro o de cosa semejante cuauhhuaqui, ni-: quauhuaqui magrecerse, pararse flaco cuauhhuatzalli: quauhuatzalli. 55m-154r le?a seca para quemar cuauhhuitequiliztli, tla-: tlaquauh uitequiliztli. 55m-231r tala cuauhhuitzmecatl: quauitzmecatl. 55m-61r zarza cuauhhuitztli: quauhuitztli. 71m2-87v2 cierto abrojo Saludos, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed May 21 19:07:59 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 15:07:59 -0400 Subject: Turquiose diadem comment 2 - repeat In-Reply-To: <20080521014159.ytc1ze7ncws4skcs@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: repeat comment 2 ***************** David, My interest in 'tzo:lli' is partly because of an issue that you raised -- that it fails to appear as an independent word. The material below is what I have collected on 'tzo:lli' and it clearly has lots of holes in it. One very large hole is any claim that it might have of semantic unity. That aside, I think that there is a widespread notion that a candidate for what might seem to be a noun(-like) morpheme is disqualified if we can't find it occurring as an independent word. A friend of mine and I have discussed a particular example of this at length. If you examine Molina's three dictionaries, looking for the word 'chantli', you might come away disappointed, since it isn't there. (By the way, when I "name" a noun morpheme and include its absolutive suffix, I really do understand that the morpheme in "tla:catl" is really "tla:ca", but I think that most people are more comfortable with the familiar label that includes the suffix.) My friend noted the absence of "chantli" in Molina and, further, that it never occurs in discourse in the Florentine Codex -- its single occurrence is as a paragraph title in Book 11 (p. 275). Of course, we were faced with abundant evidence that there *had* to be a noun behind the following: ichan. his home; his house. inchan. their land. tochan. our home, our house. techan. casa; morada; o casa agena; naturaleza; tierra de donde es alguno. chanchihua. he makes his home; it makes its home. chaneh. due?o de casa. atlan chaneh. pescado generalmente. huehca chaneh. aduenedizo; estra?o o estrangero; natural de otra tierra. mochantia. it dwells, it provides itself with a home; it lives; it makes its home; it nests; it makes a home for itself; they nest. ninochantia. morada hazer. ichantlaca. his household members; his household. mochantlalia. he establishes a home; it makes itself a home. chantlatquitl. alhajas; alhajas de casa. amochantzinco. your [H., pl.] home. Of course, we know that some morphemes simply don't occur independently because of their basic nature: -tin noun plural suffix -meh noun plural suffix ni- 1st singular subject prefix -h subject plural suffix (ancho:cah) -ihui and -ahui verbers which derive verbs from nouns (a:calihui from a:calli) -oa verber which derives verbs from nouns (nitamaloa < tamalli) However, since derivation from nouns normally involves a noun which *does* occur independently, we become spoiled. If we fail to find the independent noun, like a rock in our path, we somehow feel guilty to propose the obvious nounstem... perhaps because we have seen others engage in this "hocus pocus" linguistics. There was a time, decades ago, when linguistics aspired to be a science, but now, even though that might seem to be an unrealistic goal, there are certainly areas of language description where the "what if" approach is valid, in a way vaguely parallel to the mental activity of the first people who conceived the structure of the benzene ring. I'm not suggesting that we all engage in wild-eyed "what if" activity and call it research. The "what if" may be the spark that points us in some direction of analysis, but the final product of a given area of morphology has to stand up to our tests of consistency and credibility. "tzo:lli" is only of a group of noun-like stems which undergo verbing in the same way as "chi:lli" (chi:lihui) or verbing plus further derivative processes like "tli:lli" (tli:ltic). Some others are nolli, tzelli, xelli, za:lli, and xacualli. Anyway, here are my notes on "tzo:lli". The only thing that isn't given in the list is my doubt about the overall unity. Saludos, Joe p.s. The "b. ... f. ..." notations refer to books of the Florentine and to my file numbers. *tzo:lli *** amatzotzolli. scrap of paper. . b.2 f.9 centlamatzolli. pu?o o pu?ado lo que alli cabe como de cosas de mayz o otras semillas; vn pu?o o pu?ado de garuanzos o de cosa semejante. . 55m-16 centlamatzololi. handful. . b.11 f.13 centlamatzololli. pu?o o pu?ado lo que alli cabe,como de cosas de mayz o otras semillas; vn pu?o o pu?ado de garuanzos o de cosa semejante. . 71m1-18 chiantzotzol. wrinkled chia. . b.2 f.2 chiantzotzolatolli. atole made with wrinkled chia. . b.4 f.11 chiantzotzollo. having wrinkled chia. . b.8 f.2 chichihualayotl . 71m1-16 chientzotzol. wrinkled chia. e>. b.9 f.4 chientzotzoleh. owner of wrinkled chia. e>. b.10 f.4 chientzotzolli. wrinkled chia. . b.10 f.9 chientzotzolnamacac. one who sells wrinkled chia. e>. b.10 f.4 cocohtzoltic. el que tiene estrecho gaznate, y a esta causa come poco a poco. . 71m1-9 cotztzotzol , to-. flabbiness of the calf of our leg. tztz>. b.10 f.7 coyameeltzotzolli. papada de puerco. . 55m-15 cuacuammatzoltic. having antlers like tree branches. mm>. b.11 f.2 cuanmatzoltic. having tapering branches. . b.11 f.11 cuitlatzol. floxo por negligencia; perezosa cosa; perezoso muy descuidado y negligentisimo. . 55m-10 cuitlatzol , ti-. you are lazy. . b.6 f.10 cuitlatzol 15 cuitlatzol. lazy; lazy person; listless. . b.10 f.2 cuitlatzolli. perezoso muy descuidado y negligentisimo. . 71m1-17 cuitlatzollotl. afloxamiento assi (assi is afloxar emperezando); pereza. ll>. 55m-00 cuitlatzoltitinemi ti1-nemi aux01>. 55m-00 cuitlatzolyotl. floxedad assi o negligencia (assi is floxo por negligencia). . 55m-10 eltzotzol , t[o]-. flabbiness of our chest; flabbiness of our breast. . b.10 f.6 eltzotzol ?metl i. papada de puerco. . 71m2-4 eltzotzolli. vbre de puerca parida o de vaca. . 55m-19 eltzotzolli. flabbiness of the chest. . b.10 f.7 huexoloeltzotzolli. papada de gallo. . 55m-15 ihtetzotzolli. bajo del vientre. . 55m-1 ihtitzotzol , t[o]-. flabbiness of our abdomen. . b.10 f.7 ihtitzotzolli. flabbiness of the stomach. . b.10 f.6 iixtzotzoliuhca. nata de leche, o de cosa semejante. . 71m2-6 iixtzotzoliuhca in chichihualayotl. nata que nada sobre la leche. xtz>. 55m-14 ilhuicaatl tzo:lli-v03a-prt1-ya:n in ilhuicatl-a:tl1 +root +poss.phr>. 55m-9 itotzoliuhcacuini prt1-ca:6-cui-ni1>. 71m1-8 ittitzotzoltic. having a wrinkled stomach. . b.2 f.2 itzoltilia . 71m1- 7 itzoltilia tlaihtoltilia>. . 71m2-21 itzoltilia v01a-caus04 +xtz>tz>. 71m1-17 itzotzoliuhcacui prt1-ca:6-cui>. 71m1-8 itzotzoliuhcacuitl v03a-prt1-ca:6-cui-l2>. 71m1-8 itzotzoliuhcaololoani prt1-ca:6-olo:lli-v03a-caus06-ni1>. 71m1-8 itzotzoliuhcaolololli v03a-prt1-ca:6-olo:lli-v03a-caus06-l1>. 71m1-8 itztzotzoliuhcayotl. flor la lapa del vino. tztz>. 55m-9 ixtzotzolihuiliztli. moho de vino. xtz>. 55m-14 ixtzotzoliuhca in atolli. tez de alguna cosa liquida y quajada como la lapa o nata de leche quaxada o de poleadas, quando estan frias o de almidon o de cosa semejante que tiene tez enla sobre haz. xtz>. 71m1-20 ixtzotzoliuhca in vino tzo:lli-v03a-prt1-ca:5 in vino +spanish +poss.phr>. 55m-12 ixtzotzoliuhcacui prt1-ca:5-cui>. 55m-5 ixtzotzoliuhcacuitl prt1-ca:5-cui-l2>. 55m-5 ixtzotzoliuhcaolololli prt1-ca:6-olo:lli-v03a-caus06-l1>. 55m-5 ixtzotzoliuhcayotl. moho de vino; flor la lapa del vino. xtz>. 55m-14 ixtzotzoliuhqui. mohoso vino. xtz>. 55m-14 mamatzolihui. branches continually taper; the branches continually taper. . b.11 f.11 mamatzoliuhqui. having tapering branches. . b.11 f.11 mamatzoltic. having tapering branches. . b.11 f.11 matzolihui. manco delas manos. . 71m1-14 matzolihui ma:itl-tzo:lli-v03a>. 71m1-14 matzolihui tzo:lli-v03a +root>. 71m2-9 matzolihui. branches taper; it shrivels; the branches taper. . b.11 f.11 matzoloa conla mano. . 71m1-3 matzoloa ma:itl-tzo:lli-v03a-caus06 +root>. 71m2-9 matzoloani . 71m1-3 matzolohqui . 71m1-3 matzoltia , conte-. . . b.4 f.7 matzoltilia , tla-. . . b.10 f.2 matzoltilia 71m1-19 matzoltilia tzo:lli-v01a-caus04 +root>. 71m2-9 metzolli. . . 71m2-10 metzolli. pith of the maguey. . b.7 f.2 motzoltin. perezosos. <--tzo:lli-plur02>. 71m1-17 quechquechtzotzol , to-. flabbiness of our neck. chtz>. b.10 f.6 quechtzotzol , to-. flabbiness of our neck. chtz>. b.10 f.7 tentzol , to-. flabbiness of our lip. . b.10 f.7 tentzoltic. cosa frunzida, o estrecha de boca; repulgado frunzido. . 71m2-17 tentzoltic. narrow-mouthed. . b.11 f.26 tentzotzol , to-. flabbiness of our lips. . b.10 f.6 tlatzoliuhyan. estrecha tierra. . 71m1- 11 totoleltzotzolli. papada de gallo. . 55m-15 tzimmamatzoltic. having tapering roots. . b.11 f.11 tzohtzoliuhca , to-. our flabbiness. . b.10 f.6 tzohtzoliuhcayotl. flabbiness. . b.10 f.6 tzohtzollotl. flabbiness. ll>. b.10 f.6 tzohtzoltic. having folds. . b.10 f.7 tzolihui. ensangostarse. . 55m-8 tzolihui , tla-. it becomes narrow; it becomes thin; it contracts; it narrows. . b.10 f.7 tzolihui tzolihui. it becomes narrow; it contracts; it constricts. . b.10 f.7 tzolihuiliztli. ensangostadura; estrechura assi (assi is estrecha cosa como entrada de puerta o como vestidura o vasija); estrechura assi (assi is estrecha cosa como entrada de puerta o comovestidura o vasija); estrechura. . 55m-8 tzoliuhca , tla-. . . b.10 f.7 tzoliuhca , to-. our flabbiness. . b.10 f.8 tzoliuhc , to-. our flabbiness. . b.10 f.8 tzoliuhqueh , ti-. we are flabby. . b.10 f.8 tzoliuhya , tla-. constricted place; narrow place. . b.10 f.7 tzoliuhyan +root>. 55m-9 tzoliuhyan in ilhuicaatl tzo:lli-v03a-prt1-ya:n in ilhuicatl-a:tl1 +root +poss.phr>. 71m1-11 tzoliuhyan in tlalli ya:n in tla:lli +root +poss.phr>. 55m-9 tzoloa , nic-. I narrow it. . b.11 f.25 tzoloa edificio; ensangostar algo; estrechar algo. . 55m-00 tzoloa tzo:lli-v03a-caus06 +root>. 71m2-26 tzololli terminos); acortado edificio; cosa ensangostada; o estrechada; ensangostado. . 55m-00 tzolpil. small and narrow. . b.11 f.26 tzoltic. angosta cosa, casa, acequia, calzas, camisa, cesto o cosa assi; assi como casa; cal?as; cesto o cosa semejante; cosa estrecha; o angosta; estrecha cama o mesa; estrecha cosa como entrada de puerta o como vestidura o vasija; estrecha cosa como entrada de puerta o como^vestidura o vasija. . 55m-00 tzoltic tzoltic. narrow; restricted; tapering. . b.11 f.25 tzoltin tzoltontli. small and narrow. . b.11 f.26 tzotzolic , to-. our flabbinesses. . b.10 f.8 tzotzolihui. it becomes flabby; it becomes folded; it becomes shrunken. . b.10 f.8 tzotzoliuhca , to-. our flabbinesses. . b.10 f.8 tzotzoliuhcayotl. flabbiness. . b.10 f.6 tzotzoliuhtimani. it keeps contracting. . b.2 f.2 tzotzollo. flabby. ll>. b.10 f.6 tzotzollotl. flabbiness. ll>. b.10 f.6 tzotzoltia. it becomes flabby. . b.10 f.7 tzotzoltic. flabby; having folds; narrow. . b.10 f.6 tzotzoltiqueh. flabby, having folds of fat. . b.10 f.10 yacahtzol , to-. tip of our nose. . b.10 f.6 yacahtzolli. tip of the nose. . b.10 f.6 yacatzol , i-. its snout. . b.11 f.1 yacatzolchiac. having a greasy nose. k>. b.11 f.2 yacatzolchiactic. having a fatty nose. k>. b.11 f.1 yacatzolchiahuac. having an oily nose; having a greasy nose. . b.11 f.1 yacatzollatlauhqui. having a red nose. . b.11 f.8 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu May 22 00:40:34 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 20:40:34 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Aztlan] Serpent And The Sun: Tales Of An Aztec Apprentice] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [Aztlan] Serpent And The Sun: Tales Of An Aztec Apprentice From: "Elaine Day Schele" Date: Wed, May 21, 2008 5:21 pm To: "'Aztlan'" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a new movie called "Serpent And The Sun: Tales Of An Aztec Apprentice" will have its Northern California Premiere at the Mendocino Film Festival. >>From the film website at http://www.serpentandthesun.com/main.html: "Tachi is 21 and has lived below the poverty line all of his life. He is a member of the Revolutionary Zapatista Collective in Mexico City . He is searching for his roots. Ehe is a 52nd generation Aztec medicine man and traditional healer (Curandero). Through a series of extraordinary circumstances the two meet. Tachi's life is changed forever. Extraordinary and inventive, The Serpent and the Sun was filmed on a month long journey through Mexico . This riveting "Hybrid Documentary" explores the roots of an Aztec medicine man and his apprentice while trekking through the mountains of rural Mexico . This powerful visual feast combines dreamlike panoramic landscapes with memorable characters and their heart warming stories while tracing the adventures of this unlikely duo as they travel throughout rural Mexico on a journey of epic proportions." Elaine _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu May 22 02:32:19 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 22:32:19 -0400 Subject: turquoise diadem In-Reply-To: <1B7AA4FF56B246A2ACFAE02DEAD23F99@WILLY1> Message-ID: Quoting wswilcox : > Molina has xiuhuitzolli, crown with precious stones. > This has to be xiuh-uitzolli, since he always uses simple u/v for w- > (and -uh for -w) > A verb huitzoa is attested in yacauitzoa - to sharpen a point. > This would give huitzo:lli for something pointed, presumably also > something with points, i.e. a crown Good point! Here are a few examples from Molina (including your item and the original one). 'amahuitzolli' and 'xacalhuitzolli' are two other kinds of 'huitzolli' besides the 'xihuitl' kind. amahuitzolli. coroza. . 71m1-5 xacalhuitzolli. pointed hut. . b.11 f.26 xiuhhuitzolli. corona real con piedras preciosas; mitra de obispo. . 71m1-5 xiuhhuitzolli. turquoise diadem. . b.6 f.2 yacahuitzoa =nitla. aguzar punta o ser el primero o delantero de los que caminan, o de los que estan puestos en orden; ahusar algo; punta sacar. . 71m1-1 yacahuitzoa =nitla=onitlayacahuitzo. sacar o aguzar punta. . 71m2-5 yacahuitzoani =tla. ahusador. . 71m1-1 yacahuitzoliztli =tla. ahusadura. . 71m1-1 yacahuitzolli =tla. aguzada punta; cosa hecha con punta; assi como recaton; passador; o cosa ahusada y aguzada de punta; puntada cosa con punta. . 71m1-1 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From archaeology.csumb at gmail.com Wed May 21 16:19:47 2008 From: archaeology.csumb at gmail.com (Archaeology CSUMB) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 09:19:47 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Listeros, In several recent publications, including those published in Vera Tiesler and Andrea Cucina's *New Perspectives on Human Sacrifice and Ritual Body Treatments in Ancient Maya Society* (Springer Press, 2007), and my own paper on "Aztec Militarism and Blood Sacrifice: The Archaeology and Ideology of Ritual Violence" published in the Richard J. Chacon and Rub?n G. Mendoza edition of *Latin American Indigenous Warfare and Ritual Violence* (Arizona Press, 2007), discussions devolve from treatments of the forensic evidence now available for such considerations. In the "Aztec Militarism" paper I review extant osteological and blood serum analyses and procedures, and those sites now associated with mass burials. Among these latter, the sites of Tlatelolco and Cantona have resulted in the recovery of disarticulated, decapitated, and "pot polished" human remains accounting for upwards of two to three hundred individuals in each case. Interestingly, in each instance, the bodies were buried beneath the lime plastered courtyards at each site. In the region of Tlaxcala, Garcia Cook has documented bone yards and kill sites with men, women, and children numbering into the hundreds...replete with ritual offerings. At the site of Toluquilla, Queretaro, archaeologists chanced upon the recovery of some 50 decapitated human heads recovered from within the mortared platform at one end of one of the ballcourts at that site...and indicated that many more heads were contained therein, but conservation considerations led to the decision to leave the remaining 50 or more decapitated heads in their original matrix of lime mortar. In another recent paper titled "The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica," published in the Richard J. Chacon and David H. Dye edition of The Taking and Displaying of Human Body Parts as Trophies by Amerindians (Springer Press, 2007), I document a host of sources for the massing of decapitated human heads in sites from throughout Mesoamerica and beyond. While many continue to dispute the head count from the Huey tzompantli of Mexico-Tenochtitlan, many of those who contest this number neglect to consider that the Huey teocalli or Templo Mayor itself was in turn examined for human trophies, and counts at the time of the initial entrada of the Spaniards tallied a total head count for decapitated heads mortared into the facades of the Huey teocalli at over 60,000...and that does not include all of the many decomposed heads that were regularly, and systematically, cleared from the Huey tzompantli on an ongoing basis. So, given the growing mountain of evidence for blood tribute centered on social violence taking the form of ritual decapitation and dismemberment, and anthropophagy, I do believe it would be much harder to make the case that the numbers fall below those projected from selected sites documented by the Spanish at contact. Adding to this debate recent finds from Zultepec, Mexico, where the tzompantli's of that site were found to bear the heads of decapitated Spaniards, including a few European women and Mestizos, it is clear that this was standard practice in the empire of the Sun. When we add to this scenario the body count from Zultepec, including some 550 Spaniards, Indian allies, Mestizos, Mulattos, and Africans, documented both archaeologically, and by way of Spanish accounts...it is clear that the pattern was widespread, and that the Spanish, while maintaining agendas and propagandistic narratives, were nevertheless able to count the dead among them with a fair degree of accuracy. Best Regards, Ruben Mendoza On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 5:14 AM, Wm. Clay Poe wrote: > Quicklime (CaO) is produced by heating Calcium carbonate (CaCO3), to > about > 700 degrees centigrade at which point the CaCO3 dissociates into CaO and > CO2. When the CaO is slaked, mixed with water, it hydrates and becomes > Calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2. Over time the Calcium hydroxide absorbs CO2 > from > the atmosphere and becomes, once again, Calcium carbonate. This process > takes a very long time to complete and gives rise to comments about the > superior hardness of Roman cement. You just need to give it a couple of > thousand years. > > Human bone is mostly Calcium phosphate. Only about 7% is Calcium carbonate. > Human bone would not be a good choice for the source of quicklime. > > Regards, > > Bill > > Wm. Clay Poe, Ph.D., RPA > Professor of Archaeology > Sonoma State University > Rohnert Park, CA 94928 > > (707) 480-9251 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Sandor [mailto:gregory_sandor at hotmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 10:04 AM > To: David Becraft; MICHAEL RUGGERI; aztlan at lists.famsi.org; > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] [Nahuat-l] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > Is there a way to determine from the chemical composition of lime in mortar > > whether it was made from human bones? > > Regards, > > Greg > > (614) 517-7204 > greg at gregsandor.com > http://www.gregsandor.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Becraft" > To: "MICHAEL RUGGERI" ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > > Listeros, > > I may have missed it, but I am curious about archaeological evidence > supporting the mass sacrifice of humans from 2,000 years ago to 1521. Have > > there been any major archaeological findings that have uncovered the number > > of people sacrificed? I assume it must be in the hundreds of thousands, or > > maybe millions. I know that there have been some mass graves of 45 or so, > but has the number ever been higher than a thousand? > > Pancho > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:07:07 -0700 > > From: michaelruggeri at mac.com > > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICED INDIVIDUALS FOUND AT BANDURRIA > > > > > > > > Listeros. > > > > 4000 year old human remains have been uncovered at the most ancient urban > > > area in the New World, Bandurria, in Peru. They are sacrificed > > individuals. Parts of skeletons were found of 3 people. One had been > > decapitated. > > > > Living in Peru has the story here; > > > > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-6483-artculturehistory-human-sacrifice-rema > ins-found-peru-archaeological-site > > > > > > Mike Ruggeri > > > > > > Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links > > > http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > > Aztlan mailing list > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > Click to view Calendar of Events > > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=L_WL_ GreaterGood > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From alanrking at yahoo.com Thu May 22 08:04:33 2008 From: alanrking at yahoo.com (Alan King) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 01:04:33 -0700 Subject: On chantli and Pipil Message-ID: Alan King here, returning after a long absence - during which my work on Pipil (which we call Nawat) has not ceased - with greetings for Joe Campbell if he remembers me and the rest of the list. Ken annemit? This is in response to Joe's "comment 2" where he raises some issues about the status of chantli and tzolli about which I would like to chip in. Since this seems to have nothing at all to do with turquoise diadems, I thought it best to move over to a new thread with it. I was struck by Joe's digression about how to interpret the absence of a noun entry for chantli in Molina. In Pipil, the conclusion I have drawn from the entire text corpus at my disposal (written transcriptions of originally oral materials; my present corpus includes both previously published texts, written but unpublished stuff, and new oral material), as well as from direct observation of the language in use is that either there simply is no autonomous *noun* "chan" 'house' in Pipil, or else its presence is rather marginal and involves many reservations. For the ordinary noun 'house' Pipil has the word kal (cf. calli). Note that noun stems ending in an 'l' regularly take no suffix whether absolute or possessed. So: se kal "a house", ne kal "the house", (ne) nukal "my house". First a word about inalienability. If there were an equivalent of chantli in Pipil and it had an absolute form, the form we would expect is *chanti (cf. "sinti" - "nusin" 'maize' - 'my maize'). However, *chanti is not attested. Now there are many, many nouns with no absolute form in Pipil because they are obligatorily possessed (let's call such nouns inalienable), whereas in classical Nahuatl apparently they have absolute forms (at least in dictionaries). So for example 'mother' is "nan", it is inalienable so there is no *nanti, only "nunan" etc., and in at least one dialect also "tenan" is attested. Notice that this certainly does not prove that "nan" is not a noun, only that as a noun it is "inalienable". And of course relationals are also "inalienable"; while often described as noun-like, they likewise have no absolute form. My point, therefore, is not merely that in Pipil "chan" is inalienable (which would not be so surprising), but rather that it seems to be a relational (rather than just an inalienable noun) or, at best, something intermediate between a true noun and a true relational. For the most part, in Pipil "chan" certainly seems to function as a relational meaning 'chez', e.g. "Niaw nuchan" 'I am going home', "Nemi (ka) ichan" 'He/She is at home', "(i)chan ne palej" 'at the priest's house'. (Note that omission of "i-" when the possessor follows, as in "chan ne palej", is very widespread both with relationals and inalienable nouns in Pipil.) The corpus is chock-full of this kind of usage of "chan". In the Santo Domingo de Guzm?n variety of Pipil, I have hardly encountered evidence in actual language use to contradict the hypothesis that this is the *only* way "chan" is used as an autonomous word in this dialect. By autonomous word I mean to exclude lexical derivatives or compounds such as "chanej" 'inhabitant', or "techan" lexicalized in the meaning 'village'. For another variety, that spoken in Cuisnahuat, as far as I know the same can be said except that here the word that has been lexicalized as meaning 'village' is "tuchan". "Techan" (Santo Domingo) and "tuchan" (Cuisnahuat) are synchronically true nouns, but I suspect that "chan" as such is not - at least in these dialects. At least three tests of "nounness" might be suggested here (see below for yet another): (1) can it take a determiner such as a definite or indefinite article or a demonstrative? (this test could be expanded to included other determiners and quantifiers) (2) can it be qualified by an adjective? Both of these tests question whether "chan" really is a nucleus of a noun phrase admitting normal noun phrase expansions. (3) a semantic test: is "chan" only used to refer to a location (as relationals typically do) or can it also refer to an object (as "kal" certainly can). By these tests, my assertion about "chan" is confirmed for these dialects. (The only example with "ne" + "chan" are "ne techan" in Santo Domingo and "ne tuchan" in Cuisnahuat, both meaning "the village".) This conflicts with a claim made to me by one present-day speaker who thinks that "kal" and "chan" are both nouns and "really" refer to different types of construction. I have found nothing to support this in actual usage and suspect it is a spurious rationalization of the existence of two different words which are patently not quite equivalent, by someone lacking the linguistic sophistication needed to comprehend the notion of a grammatical rather than semantic differentiation between lexemes, especially when without a parallel in Spanish. I only mention this for the sake of completeness and in honour of his opinion, whether correct or in error. However, in one important component in the Pipil corpus, the texts recorded by Leonhard Schultze Jena in the 1920s in Izalco, where the language is now all but extinct, there are some counterexamples regarding test (1), given that the definite article "ne" sometimes precedes "ichan", as in (with standardized spelling): "Ne shulet mukwepki tik ne ichan kilia ne isiwaw" 'The husband returned home to tell his wife'. In Santo Domingo this would be: "Ne shulet mukwepki (ka) ichan kilwia ne isiwaw", omitting both the article and the locative preposition "tik", which also seems to be incompatible with relationals. (This suggests another syntactic test for nouns: can they be preceded by a preposition other than "ka"? "Ka" acts somewhat differently to other prepositions - long story - and its optional presence doesn't prove anything here.) But even in the Izalco data, and even when the article "ne" is present, only locative phrases are found. By contrast, with "kal" there are some non-locative uses in the corpus, such as: "se lamatzin ka kipiatuya ne ikal tik se kujtan..." 'an old woman who had a (lit. "her") house in the woods/country' etc. On the basis of my findings on Pipil usage, I would expect *ichan to be starred in a sentence such as this one. As far as I know, this distinction between "kal" (as a noun) and "chan" (as something other than a real or full noun) has not previously been noted in linguistic descriptions of El Salvador Nawat, hence my need to argue the case as I have done. Having done that, I thought this might just have a bearing on the absence of a dictionary entry for a noun "chantli" in classical Nahuatl, as noted by Joe Campbell. If relevant, then this would not only tell us something about classical Nahuatl but also about Pipil Nawat by suggesting that the usage I have described for the latter continues a pattern of considerable antiquity. Sorry that had to be so long! Alan _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From david_becraft at hotmail.com Thu May 22 13:59:24 2008 From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 06:59:24 -0700 Subject: Nelcuilolli: A Revisionist Approach to Indigenous Epistemological Writings Systems of Anahuac Message-ID: Hi, I just wanted to share this with the lists. Here is the URL: https://share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docidraa5af5-2804-11dd-bd84-11cded5570d0 Here is the HTML: David F. Becraft _________________________________________________________________ Change the world with e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source?hangeWorld _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu May 22 15:27:11 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 10:27:11 -0500 Subject: Turquoise diadem Message-ID: Many thanks to Joe and W. S. for all the input (and to Stephanie for her off-list suggestions). Sorry for missing the xiuhuitzolli in the castellano-mexicano section of Molina, W. S.; I was rushing through my mail so I could only be a little bit late for class. The data provided has been more than enough to clear up my doubts. I have printed it all out and will glue it all to 5 x 8 file cards for future reference (call me old-fashioned, but I like to have it all on paper so I can spread it out on the table). David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From david_becraft at hotmail.com Thu May 22 15:57:55 2008 From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (David Becraft) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 08:57:55 -0700 Subject: I'll Try one more time, Nelcuilolli: A Revisionist Aproach to Indigenous Epistemological Writing Sys Message-ID: This one seems to be working. URL: https://share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docidraa5af5-2804-11dd-bd84-11cded5570d0 _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce?Cause _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From becraftd at students.sou.edu Thu May 22 15:49:03 2008 From: becraftd at students.sou.edu (David F. Becraft) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 11:49:03 -0400 Subject: David F. Becraft has shared a file with you Message-ID: I hope this one goes through! Click on the link below or copy and paste the entire URL to your web browser address bar to retrieve your file. https://share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docid=72aa5af5-2804-11dd-bd84-11cded5570d0 Document Information Owner: David F. Becraft Created: May 22, 2008 Modified: May 22, 2008 ======================================================= What is "SHARE" beta? ------------------------------ SHARE beta is a web-based service to share, publish and manage your important documents. Visit http://share.adobe.com/ SHARE FILES - Share and manage your files in one location: https://share.acrobat.com/adc/subscribe.do You are receiving this e-mail because David F. Becraft [becraftd at students.sou.edu] is sharing a document with you. Receiving this e-mail has not added you to any e-mail list. Copyright 2007 Adobe Systems Incorporated. All rights reserved. 345 Park Avenue, San Jose, CA 95110. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ShareIcon.png Type: image/png Size: 956 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BecraftMcNairJournal2008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24912 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri May 23 06:04:25 2008 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R Joe) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 02:04:25 -0400 Subject: Turquoise diadem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, I'll call you old fashioned if you'll call me a nitpicker. I have been worrying about your "iuhui" from the Florentine (b. 1, p. 25, last line). Anderson and Dibble transcribed the phrase "... yn juhuj..." and, as accurate as they were, I thought I smelled a typo. So I checked the facsimile and A&D turned out to be as accurate as they usually are -- they had merely inserted a blank for readability: "...ynjuhuj...". Obviously, I could no longer smell a typo, but now I smell a scribo. I strongly suspect that "juhuj" is an erroneous spelling for "juhquj". "iuh" and "iuhqui" are preterit forms of "ihui" (to be thus, to be so). A&D translated the phrase "yn iuhuj cencan" as 'in the very same manner' as if it were "iuhqui". I looked through various examples (no more than caxtolli) and found that when they use the phrase 'in the same manner', it corresponds to "iuh" or "iuhqui". ...and that's why I think thus, Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Sat May 24 01:49:54 2008 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 18:49:54 -0700 Subject: Vowels Message-ID: I'm finding "long" and "short" confusing, I think because I instinctively pronounce nahuatl in spanish. And I have no sound model to use. I'm looking at a few examples and sure I'm going to sound like a fool the first time I try to speak them. axcan (now/today) has the little line over both vowels. "Aysh-cane" ? or ahsh-cahn Nican (here) "Nih-cane" or Ni-cahn ? ompa (over there) mark on the o om-pah or oom-pah ? iyalhua (yesterday) Eye-yale-hua or ee-yal-hua ? Those examples show up my confusion quite nicely. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mixcoatl at gmail.com Sat May 24 03:06:07 2008 From: mixcoatl at gmail.com (Geoff Davis) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 23:06:07 -0400 Subject: Vowels In-Reply-To: <38A5FFC4-B1B6-49FE-A08D-62AB62AF4413@ipinc.net> Message-ID: On 5/23/08, Kier Salmon wrote: > I'm finding "long" and "short" confusing, I think > because I instinctively pronounce nahuatl in > spanish. And I have no sound model to use. [snip] Based upon your examples, I'm assuming you're comparing long English vowels (ay vs. ah) to, for example, Spanish vowels. The length distinction has mostly disappeared from English, now, and previously long vowels have changed position in the vocal tract so they're still distinct. Therein lies the confusion, I believe. English "long" vowels are no longer truly long. I've read that this has happened in some modern Nahuatl dialects too (tense/lax distinction, etc.) Classically speaking, though, the Nahuatl length distinction is a /true/ length distinction. This means that /a:/ is the same vocal quality as /a/, but held slightly longer. Hope this helps. :D Regards, -Geoff _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From david_becraft at hotmail.com Fri May 30 09:44:38 2008 From: david_becraft at hotmail.com (david_becraft at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 02:44:38 -0700 Subject: I just saw it on CNN.com: 'Uncontacted tribe' sighted in Amazon Message-ID: *Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified. This is very interesting! ******************** If you are having trouble with any of the links in this message, or if the URL's are not appearing as links, please follow the instructions at the bottom of this email. Title: 'Uncontacted tribe' sighted in Amazon - CNN.com Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to access the sent link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=1005447200&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to SAVE THIS link: http://www.savethis.clickability.com/st/saveThisPopupApp?clickMap=saveFromET&partnerID=211911&etMailToID=1005447200&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to forward this link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=forward&etMailToID=1005447200&partnerID=211911&pt=Y ******************** Email pages from any Web site you visit - add the EMAIL THIS button to your browser, copy and paste the following into your Web browser: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=browserButtons&pt=Y" ********************* Instructions: ----------------------------------------- If your e-mail program doesn't recognize Web addresses: 1. With your mouse, highlight the Web Address above. Be sure to highlight the entire Web address, even if it spans more than one line in your email. 2. Select Copy from the Edit menu at the top of your screen. 3. Launch your Web browser. 4. Paste the address into your Web browser by selecting Paste from the Edit menu. 5. Click Go or press Enter or Return on your keyboard. ******************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu Sat May 31 02:28:19 2008 From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P. Smith) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 19:28:19 -0700 Subject: QUERY: Mestlapiques Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Does anyone out there happen to know the Latin name for the scaly viviparous fish called mestlapique? I have found dozens of references to them as an important food source for the lakeshore people and chinamperos of Lake Chalco and Lake Xochimilco but haven't been able to ascertain exactly what they are. Sahagun has a one-line description of a fish called Michipitli, which maybe the same creature, and Aleman lists mestlapiques as an important lake fish in his geographical dictionary. So far, however, I have found no present-day references or alternative names for them. I'm also trying to identify a root called Cabecitas de Negro. This term also shows up in dozens of 17th and 18th century documents and Sor Juana even has a recipe for it in her cookbook. If anyone has a guess as to what this water plant may be, I would be much obliged. Thanks much, Kevin Smith Department of History University of California Santa Barbara _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat May 31 03:11:19 2008 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 22:11:19 -0500 Subject: QUERY: Mestlapiques In-Reply-To: <20080530192819.p9qqvvsje2o0c8ks@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Kevin: The first place I usually look for "aztequismos" is Francisco J. Santamaria's *Diccionario de mejicanismos* (5a ed., Mexico City, Editorial Porrua, 1992 [1st. ed. 1959]). On page 719 is this entry: "Mestlapique. (Del azt. *mich-tlapic*: de *michin*, pescado, y *tlapic*, envuelto.) m. Tamalito compuesto de un pescadito especial, entero, envuelto en hoja de ma?z, asado que se vende en los mercados. "'La suciedad y pestilencia eran m?s notables en los puestos de frutas, *mestlapiques*, ranas, ajolotes, etcetera, y montalayos, tripa gorda, pancita, carnitas y otras carnes indecentes y medio podridas'. (PRIETO, *Memorias*, II p. 69.)" The reference is to Guillermo Prieto, *Memorias de mis tiempos*, Mexico City, 1906. *Mich(in)*, of course, is fish, and our dear friend Alonso de Molina, on f. 132r of the second section of his *Vocabulario*, confirms Santamaria's gloss of *Tlapic*: "Tlapictli. hechura, o criatura, o cosa criada, fingida, o cosa embuelta en hojas de mayz, assi como tamalli. &c. o almario hecho en lo hueco d la pared." The question is whether *mestlapique* really derives from *mich* + *tlapic*. In San Nicol?s, Ixmiquilpan, Hidalgo, I've eaten delicious tamales with *charales* or tiny fish (in this case from the nearby Presa Golondrinas, next to Alfajayucan), packed in aromatic herbs, with no corn, cooked on the comal rather than the usual steaming in the *olla tamalera*. What made them "tamales" was the fact that they were cooked in corn leaves. Nobody there called them *mestlapiques*; Santamaria's entry just reminded me of the experience. Saludos, David -----Mensaje original----- [...] Does anyone out there happen to know the Latin name for the scaly viviparous fish called mestlapique? I have found dozens of references to them as an important food source for the lakeshore people and chinamperos of Lake Chalco and Lake Xochimilco but haven't been able to ascertain exactly what they are. Sahagun has a one-line description of a fish called Michipitli, which maybe the same creature, and Aleman lists mestlapiques as an important lake fish in his geographical dictionary. So far, however, I have found no present-day references or alternative names for them. [...] Thanks much, Kevin Smith [...] _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Sat May 31 18:47:53 2008 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 14:47:53 -0400 Subject: QUERY: Mestlapiques In-Reply-To: <20080530192819.p9qqvvsje2o0c8ks@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Dear listeros, The best book for fish in Mexico is Robert Rush Miller, Freshwater Fishes of Mexico, U. Chicago Press, 2005. He lists mexcalpique and mexcalpiques, various generas and species in the Goodeidae family. In Spanish they share the common name "splitfin". Nahuatl etymology is probably related to mahtlapal- or ma:stla:kapal-, stems for two different types of 'wings', 'arms', etc. (the first unbent, the second jointed). The verb pi:k, cf. picqui in Remi Simeon as an adjective, "macizo, compacto" and in Molina as "cosa maciza". Since one of the extended meanings of the verb is "prensar" (nopam mopiqui in Simeon as estoy prensado, lit. la multitud se api?a sobre m?) the fish name could well refer to the pressed, flattened look of the tails of Goodeidae, see illustrations in the above-cited book. jda Quoting "Kevin P. Smith" : > Dear Colleagues, > > Does anyone out there happen to know the Latin name for the scaly > viviparous fish called mestlapique? I have found dozens of references > to them as an important food source for the lakeshore people and > chinamperos of Lake Chalco and Lake Xochimilco but haven't been able > to ascertain exactly what they are. Sahagun has a one-line description > of a fish called Michipitli, which maybe the same creature, and Aleman > lists mestlapiques as an important lake fish in his geographical > dictionary. So far, however, I have found no present-day references or > alternative names for them. > > I'm also trying to identify a root called Cabecitas de Negro. This > term also shows up in dozens of 17th and 18th century documents and > Sor Juana even has a recipe for it in her cookbook. If anyone has a > guess as to what this water plant may be, I would be much obliged. > > Thanks much, > > Kevin Smith > Department of History > University of California Santa Barbara > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sat May 31 20:53:06 2008 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 16:53:06 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Aztlan] Nahuatl Writing] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [Aztlan] Nahuatl Writing From: ECOLING at aol.com Date: Fri, May 30, 2008 9:07 pm To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The most recent issue of the PARI newsletter which can be obtained as part of membership, or purchased separately, see _www.mesoweb.com/pari/journal/0804_ (http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/journal/0804) has some very rich articles on Nahuatl writing by Alfonso Lacadena, the result of a decade of research by him, with supporting material by Marc Zender and a quotation from Zelia Nuttall. It includes Lacadena's Nahuatl syllabary. These articles show clearly that Nahuatl writing, like Mayan writing, is composed of logograms and a phonetic syllabary, but with some differences from Maya writing in that consonants are not written at ends of words or ends of syllables. The writing is not as complete as Mayan, since syllables may also be skipped, but the first syllable is always written except in a few very rare late examples which begin with a sound which did not exist in Nahuatl and was omitted from the writing. The articles contain many examples, with citations of source pages, and make several methodological points. (1) The same types of reasoning can be used as for Mayan writing, to establish whether a sign is a logogram or a phonogram. (2) The decipherment of Nahuatl writing would have occurred much earlier if those looking at it had had comparative knowledge of logosyllabic writing systems elsewhere in the world, since several individuals (Aubin, Nuttall, and others) had noticed crucial types of spellings. (3) Decipherment of Nahuatl writing was hampered by the assumption (the wish to believe?) that the more phonetic spellings reflected influence from Spanish and the Latin-script. Instead, it turns out that the scribes of most parts of the Texcoco realms (Acolhuas) on the eastern side of Lake Texcoco chose to use far more phonograms, while scribes of Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco on the western side chose to use far more logograms. Otherwise, Lacadena argues that there was no difference in early vs. late spellings, that exactly the same sets of logograms and phonograms were available in the two areas, with a single exception, signs for /wa/, probably to avoid confusion with a numerical sign for "2". (In the later period additional logograms appeared for items introduced by the Spanish.) The difference between these two areas is much like a difference among Mayan areas, that scribes at Chich'en Itza' used far more phonograms, compared with other Mayan sites using far more logograms. Yet no one suggests that Chich'en was under more influence from the Latin script. These findings will have a substantial long-term effect on studies of Central Mexico. The papers report important advances. A brief discussion of the stone of Tizoc suggests that new perspectives may also change many interpretations of Aztec history. We can be very grateful both to the authors and to Joel Skidmore for seeing that this material is published. Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics PO Box 15156 Washington, DC 20003 ecoling at aol.com 202-547-7683 _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl