From cindy at grito-poetry.com Sat Aug 1 03:52:07 2009 From: cindy at grito-poetry.com (Cindy) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:52:07 -0700 Subject: "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought Nahuatl meant “clear speech”—according to Leon-Portilla, I think. No? -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of macehual08 at gmail.com Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 2:13 PM To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? I just came across a definition in "Oxford Music Online" (in an article on Mexican music by E. Thomas Stanford and Arturo Chamorro) that defines Nahuatl as "sonorous, audible, council; law" AND "to dance embraced at the neck." Is anyone familiar with the second definition? Nahuatl as a "dance embraced at the neck"? I don't see this definition in Molina, Siméon, Karttunen and wonder if anyone knows where this association might come from? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Sat Aug 1 17:04:16 2009 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 10:04:16 -0700 Subject: "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Na:huatl (long a) means "pleasant sounding, clear, understandable"..... I have never seen the neck thing...... I believe nahnahua means to embrace in general...... mario I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD www.mexicayotl.net macehual08 at gmail.com wrote: > I just came across a definition in "Oxford Music Online" (in an > article on Mexican music by E. Thomas Stanford and Arturo Chamorro) > that defines Nahuatl as "sonorous, audible, council; law" AND "to > dance embraced at the neck." > > Is anyone familiar with the second definition? Nahuatl as a "dance > embraced at the neck"? I don't see this definition in Molina, Siméon, > Karttunen and wonder if anyone knows where this association might come > from? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 20:23:58 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 15:23:58 -0500 Subject: nahuatl hk < kk Message-ID: listeros kk > hk is indeed a very common sound change in modern Nahuatl - it is also found throughout Morelos and in southern Puebla. I do not think however tht it is best understood as a dissimilation. I think it is a part of a much more pervasive tendency in Nahuatl to turn all consonant clusters into aspiration + consonant. For many dialects most consonant clusters, including those with sonorants are pronounced /hC/. So that e.g. kalli is pronounced [kahli], teopixki [teopihki], itta [ihta]. In my opinion this in turn is a part of the nahuatl rule of devoicing and aspirating syllable final consonants. The way I see there is a general "drift" in Nahuatl making all syllable final consonants tend towards becoming h. Magnus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Aug 1 02:04:20 2009 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:04:20 -0500 Subject: Nahua, nahnahua Message-ID: Estimado Macehual08, In Huastecan Nahuatl, "nahua" is a class 4 verb that means "to carry s.t. in your arms" (vs "mama", "to carry s.t. on your back"). The reduplicated form, "nahnahua", means "to hug s.o." This is pretty close to your example. John Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Aug 1 02:12:42 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:12:42 -0500 Subject: quechnahua Message-ID: Listeros and macehual08, I should have mentioned that the verb "nahua" has two long "a"s, and that "quechnahua", means "to hug s.o. around the neck, or to walk with s.o. with you arm over their shoulder". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Sat Aug 1 05:31:21 2009 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 01:31:21 -0400 Subject: "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? In-Reply-To: <000901ca125b$70bf4e70$6501a8c0@HPPavilion> Message-ID: Niquitta ahmo innahuati. I think that the authors are not familiar with Nahuatl language and placed too much trust in their references. It is telling that they gave English verbs and adjectives as possible translations of a noun. Also in the previous paragraph they mention "...the two pitch levels of the Nahuatl language..." which is confusing, since one normally speaks of pitch levels in the context of languages with lexical tone. They may be referring to stressed vs. unstressed syllables or heavy vs. light syllables, but it is not clear. The curious sense might come from a confusion with some word derived from *nahuac, "*with, close to*". *Words derived from nahuac (e.g. nahuahtequi) can have the final consonant reduced to a glottal stop or lost altogether. The error could probably be traced to one of the authors' references. Regards, On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:52 PM, Cindy wrote: > I thought Nahuatl meant “clear speech”—according to Leon-Portilla, I > think. No? > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto: > nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] *On Behalf Of *macehual08 at gmail.com > *Sent:* Friday, July 31, 2009 2:13 PM > *To:* Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > *Subject:* [Nahuat-l] "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? > > > > I just came across a definition in "Oxford Music Online" (in an article on > Mexican music by E. Thomas Stanford and Arturo Chamorro) that defines > Nahuatl as "sonorous, audible, council; law" AND "to dance embraced at the > neck." > > > > Is anyone familiar with the second definition? Nahuatl as a "dance embraced > at the neck"? I don't see this definition in Molina, Siméon, Karttunen and > wonder if anyone knows where this association might come from? > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Sat Aug 1 21:11:58 2009 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 17:11:58 -0400 Subject: nahuatl hk < kk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Other examples: Oapan l > h / ___ C as in kwa:hpale:wi:seh they will come to help him San Francisco Ozomatlan has h for s in forms such as kochihneki. Many, many variants have final /n/ and /w/ become h nokone:h my child o:toma:h s/he got fat si:talih star etc. Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > listeros > > kk > hk is indeed a very common sound change in modern Nahuatl - it is also > found throughout Morelos and in southern Puebla. I do not think however tht > it is best understood as a dissimilation. I think it is a part of a much > more pervasive tendency in Nahuatl to turn all consonant clusters into > aspiration + consonant. For many dialects most consonant clusters, including > those with sonorants are pronounced /hC/. So that e.g. kalli is pronounced > [kahli], teopixki [teopihki], itta [ihta]. In my opinion this in turn is a > part of the nahuatl rule of devoicing and aspirating syllable final > consonants. The way I see there is a general "drift" in Nahuatl making all > syllable final consonants tend towards becoming h. > > Magnus > -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 1 21:34:52 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 16:34:52 -0500 Subject: Tone in Nahuatl Message-ID: This is definitely off on a tangent so I'll use another subject title. (Sloppy titling scrambles the threads in the archives.) In reply to Jesse, who wrote: "Niquitta ahmo innahuati. I think that the authors are not familiar with Nahuatl language and placed too much trust in their references. It is telling that they gave English verbs and adjectives as possible translations of a noun. Also in the previous paragraph they mention '...the two pitch levels of the Nahuatl language...' which is confusing, since one normally speaks of pitch levels in the context of languages with lexical tone. They may be referring to stressed vs. unstressed syllables or heavy vs. light syllables, but it is not clear." I was just reading about tone and Nahuatl in a couple of articles. The first is one I cited two days ago when discussing the kk > hk change: Guion, Susan G.; Amith, Jonathan D.; Doty, Christopher; Shport, Irina A., “Word-level prosody in Balsas Nahuatl: the origin, development, and acoustic correlates of tone in a stress accent language”, n.d., in Publications, Susan Guion Anderson (http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~guion/Guion_Publications.htm; access: Jul. 29 2009). The other article is a manuscript by Whorf, unpublished in his lifetime and rescued, with comments and annotations, by Lyle Campbell and Frances Karttunen: Whorf, Benjamin Lee (Lyle Campbell y Frances Karttunen, editores), “Pitch tone and the ‘Saltillo’ in modern and ancient Nahuatl,” en International Journal of American Linguistics (The University of Chicago Press), vol. 59, no. 2, April 1993, pp. 165-223. The first paper deals with the Balsas River varieties, as the title indicates, where tone has acquired an exceptional role compared with other varieties; the second uses examples collected in Milpa Alta (D.F.) and Tepoztlán (Morelos) in 1930. I found these articles especially interesting because I had been puzzled by Rincón's and Carochi's discussion of tone related to vowel length (Antonio del Rincón, Arte mexicana, 1595, book 5, chapter 1; Horacio Carochi, Arte de la lengua mexicana, 1645, book 1, chapter 1, section 2). These passages from Rincón and Carochi are commented by Campbell and Karttunen in the article by Whorf. Saludos, David _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Aug 2 03:51:26 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 22:51:26 -0500 Subject: Me:xxihco Message-ID: Listeros: In search of additional examples of Me:xxihco (or possible variants Me:xihco, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xi:cco, which could also hypothetically derive from the same combination of morphemes me:tzli, xi:ctli, and -co), I came across a reference in Bierhorst (1985: 211) to the form Me:xihco in "Huehuetlatolli document A" (Mexican MS 458, Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley). If any of you have a copy of this at hand, could you please check 11:6 (I guess that means folio 11, line 6) and tell me what you see there? Or at least the transcription from Karttunen's and Lockhart's The Art of Nahuatl Speech (which I don't have at hand). This is important, since this Bancroft manuscript is one of those rare colonial documents that marks long vowels and saltillos, coming from Carochi's circle at Tepotzotlán, if I remember correctly. While I had Bierhorst down from the shelf, I looked up xi:ctli and found that he writes it xictli, with a short /i/ (he's usually pretty careful about vowel length). In Karttunen's dictionary, which is usually where we (me and the mouse in my pocket) usually look first for information on vowel length and saltillos, we find xi:ctli. Wolf (2003) has xi:ctli too. I got out some dictionaries of modern Nahuatl that mark vowel length and looked for this word or cognates. I found it with /i/ in Santa Catarina, Morelos (Guzmán, 1979), with /i/ in Texcoco, Mexico (Lastra, 1980), and with /i:/ in Pajapan, Veracruz (Kojis, 2007). In Lastra's massive compilation of field data (1986), there are forms with /i/ and /i:/, more of the former than the latter, with both forms present in some regions. Bierhorst also refers to a curious quote from 16th century Dominican friar Durán (1967: II, chapter 44, paragraph 3), which may (or may not) be relevant to the etymology of Mexico. He records a tradition in which Nezahuapilli, lord of Texcoco, says to Ahuitzotl, lord of Mexico: "Por tanto, pues eres, aunque de poca edad, rey de tan poderoso reino, el cual es la raíz, el ombligo y corazón de toda esta máquina mundial [...]." Saludos, David Referencias Bierhorst, John, A Nahuatl-English dictionary and concordance to the Cantares mexicanos, with an analytical transcription and grammatical notes, Stanford, Stanford University Press, 1985. Durán, Diego, Historia de las Indias de Nueva España e islas de tierra firme, 2 vols., Ángel María Garibay Kintana, editor, Mexico City, Editorial Porrúa, 1967. Guzmán Betancourt, Ignacio, Gramática del náhuatl de Santa Catarina, Morelos, Mexico City, Departamento de Lingüística, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 1979. Karttunen, Frances, An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, 2nd. ed., Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 1992. Koji, Ando, Gramática náhuatl de Pajapan, Xalapa, Universidad Veracruzana, 2007. Lastra, Yolanda, Las áreas dialectales del náhuatl moderno, Mexico City, Instituto de Investigaciones Antropológicas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1986. Lastra, Yolanda, El náhuatl de Tetzcoco en la actualidad, Mexico City, Instituto de Investigaciones Antropológicas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1980. Wolf, Paul P. de, Diccionario español-náhuatl, Mexico City/La Paz, Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México/Fideicomiso Teixidor/Universidad Autónoma de Baja California Sur, 2003. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ced22 at leicester.ac.uk Fri Aug 7 11:02:24 2009 From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk (Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E.) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 12:02:24 +0100 Subject: Yaocihuatl Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am currently writing an article on the 'Women of Discord' in Aztec history and would be grateful for your help in interpreting the name of the goddess 'Yaocihuatl'. It is most often translated as 'War/Warrior Woman', but Susan Gillespie, in 'The Aztec Kings' translates the term as 'War Woman' on p.59 and as 'Woman of Discord' on p.213. The former translation seems the most obvious, although there are obviously linguistic roots with the term 'tlatolyaotl' (translated as 'discord' in the Florentine Codex). I'd be very grateful for any thoughts colleagues can offer on the translation or interpretation of this name. Many thanks, Caroline ------- Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock Lecturer in Early Modern History School of Historical Studies University of Leicester University Road Leicester LE1 7RH email: ced22 at le.ac.uk http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Fri Aug 7 15:25:06 2009 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 11:25:06 -0400 Subject: Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My dictionary (Wimmer) cites the following passage and translation (Anderson's?) from the Florentine codex, " in ihcuâc nemiya tlâlticpac, yâôyôtl quiyolitiâya, yehhuâtl quiyôlîtiâya in teuhtli, in tlazolli, cococ, teopouhqui têpan quichîhuaya, têtzalan tênepantla, moquetzaya: îpampa in, motênêhua necoc yâôtl " when he walked upon the earth he quickened war; he quickened vice, filth; he brought anguish, affliction to men; he brought discord among men, wherefore he was called 'the enemy on both sides'. Sah1,69. yaoyotl, with the abstract noun suffix -yotl, is translated as war. yaotl itself is translated as enemy. On that, Kartunen's dictionary notes: "In compounds Ya:o: also means 'war, battle,' but as a free form 'war' is ya:o:yo:-tl, contrasting with ya:o:tl, 'enemy.' " My dictionary has the following entry for yaotl: "1. ennemi; combat, guerre. / ennemi; combat, guerre. / titre divin, s'adresse plus particulièrement à Tezcatlipoca. Cf. aussi Yâôtzin. / semble également avoir le sens de meu[r]trier." In the case of yaocihuatl, we have a compounded noun whose root is cihuatl. The prefixed noun in a compound noun or verb can modify its root in unfamiliar and abstract ways, as in pitzotlahtoa: = PIG-SPEAK, 'to speak in a crude manner' teo:cuitlatl = GOD-EXCREMENT, 'precious metal' yaochichihua = WAR-CARE, 'dress for battle' tlatolyaotl is a compound noun with yaotl as its root, modified by tlatol(li), 'speech,' so it could also be translated less succinctly as 'cold war.' The translator in the case of yaocihuatl should have plenty enough latitude to use both renderings. Yours, On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 7:02 AM, Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E. < ced22 at leicester.ac.uk> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I am currently writing an article on the 'Women of Discord' in Aztec > history and would be grateful for your help in interpreting the name of the > goddess 'Yaocihuatl'. It is most often translated as 'War/Warrior Woman', > but Susan Gillespie, in 'The Aztec Kings' translates the term as 'War Woman' > on p.59 and as 'Woman of Discord' on p.213. The former translation seems the > most obvious, although there are obviously linguistic roots with the term > 'tlatolyaotl' (translated as 'discord' in the Florentine Codex). I'd be very > grateful for any thoughts colleagues can offer on the translation or > interpretation of this name. > > Many thanks, > Caroline > ------- > Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock > Lecturer in Early Modern History > School of Historical Studies > University of Leicester > University Road > Leicester > LE1 7RH > > email: ced22 at le.ac.uk > http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 16:43:34 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 12:43:34 -0400 Subject: Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: <4fb311a10908070825j4d7bdf91t372f40fc1aa709ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Quoting Jesse Lovegren : >> On that, Kartunen's dictionary notes: "In compounds Ya:o: also means 'war, > battle,' but as a free form 'war' is ya:o:yo:-tl, contrasting with ya:o:tl, > 'enemy.' 'war-woman' does in fact make sense in this grammatical context. I wonder about how one distinguishes an 'enemy-woman' from a 'war-woman'. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Aug 7 19:23:19 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 15:23:19 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: <002101ca1782$b9bc8e90$2d35abb0$@com> Message-ID: Let's be a bit more careful. We have the implied comparison (corollary) of two very different words: chi:hua - a verb stem meaning to make something (long -i-) cihua:tl - a noun stem meaning woman (long -a-) -Please note the difference in vowel length They are very different words, they just happen to have some of the same letters. But to use an English example, "parts" and "traps" are not at all the same word. yaocihuatl is very different from yaochihua Lynda Manning-Schwartz wrote: > According to J. Richard Andrews' book, Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, > the following translations may apply (colon indicates long vowel): > > (stuff deleted) > YA:O:-TL is "enemy" often embedded, as for example, TE:-(YA:O:-CHI:HUA > > YA:O:-CHI:UH) "to wage (human) war", where > CHI:HUA > CHI:UH with prefix TE:- is "to beget someone or to engender > someone" or with prefix TLA- is "to make something" and with both prefixes > TE:-TLA-CHI:HU-IA is "to do something to someone, to bewitch someone" > CIHUA:-TL is "woman"; as a modifier, it comes before the noun modified; for > example, > CIHUA:-MAZA:-TL is "female deer, doe" > > So YA:O:-CIHUA:-TL would imply a direct translation of "War Woman" with > perhaps the implied CHI:HUA:-TL corollary "person who makes (human) war or > causes war". In a goddess, this trait might very well be related to an > implied ability to create discord in humans. > > -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 19:30:38 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 15:30:38 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: <4A7C7F27.2050308@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Where did that come from? Is there posting on aztlan that is not being posted on nahuat-l? Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > Let's be a bit more careful. We have the implied comparison (corollary) > of two very different words: > chi:hua - a verb stem meaning to make something (long -i-) > cihua:tl - a noun stem meaning woman (long -a-) > -Please note the difference in vowel length > > They are very different words, they just happen to have some of the same > letters. But to use an English example, "parts" and "traps" are not at > all the same word. > > yaocihuatl is very different from yaochihua > > > > Lynda Manning-Schwartz wrote: >> According to J. Richard Andrews' book, Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, >> the following translations may apply (colon indicates long vowel): >> >> (stuff deleted) >> YA:O:-TL is "enemy" often embedded, as for example, TE:-(YA:O:-CHI:HUA > >> YA:O:-CHI:UH) "to wage (human) war", where >> CHI:HUA > CHI:UH with prefix TE:- is "to beget someone or to engender >> someone" or with prefix TLA- is "to make something" and with both prefixes >> TE:-TLA-CHI:HU-IA is "to do something to someone, to bewitch someone" >> CIHUA:-TL is "woman"; as a modifier, it comes before the noun modified; for >> example, >> CIHUA:-MAZA:-TL is "female deer, doe" >> >> So YA:O:-CIHUA:-TL would imply a direct translation of "War Woman" with >> perhaps the implied CHI:HUA:-TL corollary "person who makes (human) war or >> causes war". In a goddess, this trait might very well be related to an >> implied ability to create discord in humans. >> >> > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Aug 7 19:34:25 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 15:34:25 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl] Message-ID: A message cross-posted from AZTLAN -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Lynda Manning-Schwartz" Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl Date: 7 Aug 2009 12:15:55 -0500 Size: 6125 URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 20:58:04 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 16:58:04 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl] In-Reply-To: <4A7C81C1.903@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Tlaxtlahui, Dr. Schwaller, for posting this on Nahuat-L. Unfortunately, I can't belong to Aztlan because of the volume that travels through there. :) Michael Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > A message cross-posted from AZTLAN > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 21:05:10 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 17:05:10 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl] In-Reply-To: <4A7C81C1.903@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Date: 7 Aug 2009 12:15:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl From: "Lynda Manning-Schwartz" To: "'Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E.'" , aztlan at lists.famsi.org 2.1 unnamed [text/plain] 3.02 KB According to J. Richard Andrews' book, Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, the following translations may apply (colon indicates long vowel): Note also that TO:L-IN is "reed, rush, bulrush" as in TO:L-T-E:-CA-TL "an inhabitant of Tollan" or a "Toltec" If TLA-TO:L-YA:O:-TL is really the construction of this word, then "discord" is possibly glossed as "thing (property?) of a Toltec foe (warrior)" Adding to a previous posting, Linda: The -TO:L- of TLA-TO:L-YA:O:-TL is from /(i)hto:lli/ 'spoken word', and is not that same as that of TO:L-T-E:-CA-TL. Best regards, Michael McCafferty _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 7 21:12:16 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 23:12:16 +0200 Subject: Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl Message-ID: Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has -- or can point me in the direction of -- good-quality photos of the panels encircling the so-called Stones of Tizoc (Tizocic) and Motecuhzoma I (or Axayacatl)? I am doing a comparative study of Aztec monuments and would dearly love to be able to examine both of these temalacatl a little more closely than I have been able up to now. I would be very grateful if someone can provide me with close-up photos of all sections of these monuments. I would, of course, not publish any without permission (and acknowledgement). Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 7 21:29:17 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 16:29:17 -0500 Subject: Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl In-Reply-To: <49945.84.132.220.142.1249679536.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Howdy, Gordon: The best photos I've seen are here: MATOS Moctezuma, Eduardo; Felipe SOLÍS. El Calendario azteca y otros monumentos solares (1a. ed.) Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia/Grupo Azabache. México, 2004. They have a good enough resolution to study the toponymical signs, among other details, in both cases. For closeups of a few signs taken from different angles that will help solve some doubts, see: GUTIÉRREZ Solana Rickards, Nelly. Objetos ceremoniales en piedra de la cultura mexica (1a. ed.) Instituto de Investigaciones Estéticas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México. México, 1983. Saludos, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Gordon Whittaker Enviado el: viernes, 07 de agosto de 2009 04:12 p.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has -- or can point me in the direction of -- good-quality photos of the panels encircling the so-called Stones of Tizoc (Tizocic) and Motecuhzoma I (or Axayacatl)? I am doing a comparative study of Aztec monuments and would dearly love to be able to examine both of these temalacatl a little more closely than I have been able up to now. I would be very grateful if someone can provide me with close-up photos of all sections of these monuments. I would, of course, not publish any without permission (and acknowledgement). Best wishes, Gordon _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 21:43:29 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 17:43:29 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl] In-Reply-To: <20090807170510.fkp4im4yogckg00g@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Sorry. Writing too quickly, thinking too slowly. Should have said tlahtolli not ihtolli. Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Date: 7 Aug 2009 12:15:55 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl > From: "Lynda Manning-Schwartz" > To: "'Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E.'" , > aztlan at lists.famsi.org > 2.1 unnamed [text/plain] 3.02 KB > > > > According to J. Richard Andrews' book, Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, > the following translations may apply (colon indicates long vowel): > > Note also that > TO:L-IN is "reed, rush, bulrush" as in TO:L-T-E:-CA-TL "an inhabitant of > Tollan" or a "Toltec" > If TLA-TO:L-YA:O:-TL is really the construction of this word, then "discord" > is possibly glossed as "thing (property?) of a Toltec foe (warrior)" > > > > > Adding to a previous posting, Linda: > > > The -TO:L- of TLA-TO:L-YA:O:-TL is from /(i)hto:lli/ 'spoken word', and > is not that same as that of TO:L-T-E:-CA-TL. > > > Best regards, > > Michael McCafferty > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Fri Aug 7 22:36:54 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 22:36:54 +0000 Subject: Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl In-Reply-To: <001f01ca17a6$1edd4cb0$5c97e610$@net.mx> Message-ID: Dear Gordon, There more good photos in "Azteca - Mexica. Las culturas del México antiguo", José Alcina Franch, Miguel León-Portilla & Eduardo Matos Moctezuma (eds.), INAH/Quinto Centenario/ Lunwerg Editores, Barcelona, 1992, fold-out page between pp. 208-209. This is a catalogue of an exhibit with the same name in Madrid, 1992. I can scan it for you if you can't get hold of the catalogue. best, Michel > From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx > To: gwhitta at gwdg.de; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 16:29:17 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl > > Howdy, Gordon: > > The best photos I've seen are here: > > MATOS Moctezuma, Eduardo; Felipe SOLÍS. El Calendario azteca y otros > monumentos solares (1a. ed.) Instituto Nacional de Antropología e > Historia/Grupo Azabache. México, 2004. > > They have a good enough resolution to study the toponymical signs, among > other details, in both cases. For closeups of a few signs taken from > different angles that will help solve some doubts, see: > > GUTIÉRREZ Solana Rickards, Nelly. Objetos ceremoniales en piedra de la > cultura mexica (1a. ed.) Instituto de Investigaciones Estéticas, Universidad > Nacional Autónoma de México. México, 1983. > > Saludos, > > David > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de Gordon Whittaker > Enviado el: viernes, 07 de agosto de 2009 04:12 p.m. > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl > > Hi everyone, > > I was wondering if anyone has -- or can point me in the direction of -- > good-quality photos of the panels encircling the so-called Stones of Tizoc > (Tizocic) and Motecuhzoma I (or Axayacatl)? I am doing a comparative study > of Aztec monuments and would dearly love to be able to examine both of > these temalacatl a little more closely than I have been able up to now. > > I would be very grateful if someone can provide me with close-up photos of > all sections of these monuments. I would, of course, not publish any > without permission (and acknowledgement). > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _________________________________________________________________ What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 22:41:38 2009 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 18:41:38 -0400 Subject: Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Caroline, I'll enclose a list of occurrences of "ya:o:tl" below. I think that it will obvious that the basic meaning of the morpheme is 'war', not 'enemy', but in some word formation contexts, it is reasonable to translate it as 'enemy'. On the confusion with "-chi:hua", there are two instances in the Florentine Codex in which "-cihua:..." is spelled with a "ch", possibly leading to some confusion, but Dibble and Anderson point this out in footnotes. All examples are from the three Molina dictionaries and the Florentine Codex. I use "=" in the Molina citations to mark the beginning of the portion which really precedes the indexed item (i.e., cecehuia =yaotica nitla should be read as: yaotica nitla-cecehuia) The Florentine reference numbers give book, my file number, and page number in the Dibble and Anderson English edition. Unfortunately, the Molina reference numbers are not very helpful in locating citations, since they label which Molina dictionary and my file number, but no folio reference: M5 = 1555 M1 = 1571 (S/N) M2 = 1571 (N/S) All the best, Joe *ya:o:tl *** cecehuia =yaotica nitla. pacificar la tierra por guerra. . 55m-15| cecehuia =yaotica nitla=yaotica onitetlacecehuili [scribal error: ??the present and the preterit don't match: 71m2]. pacificar y allanar la tierra con guerra. . 71m2-5| cecehuilli =yaoyotica tla. pacificada tierra. . 55m-15| cenyeliz =yaoquizque in. real, de gentes armadas; de gente de guerra. . 55m-17| chichicuahyaotlaya , mo-. they engaged in mock fighting with bags. . b.2 f.10 p.157| chihua =yaoyotl nic. guerra hazer. . 55m-10| cuachpanitquic =yaoc. alferez. . 71m1-2| cuepa =yaoc nino. retraer#se en la batalla o retirar#se; retraer enla batalla o retirarse. . 55m-17| iloti =yaoc n. retraer#se en la batalla o retirar#se; retraer enla batalla o retirarse. . 55m-17| iloti =yaoc n=yaoc onilot. retirarse enla guerra. . 71m2-5| oyayaopehua. . . b.2 f.1 p.50| palehuia =yaoc nite. ayudar con gente armada. . 55m-00| palehuiani =yaoc te. ayudador assi (assi is ayudar con gente armada). . 71m1-1| palehuiliztli =yaoc te. ayuda assi {printing error: nssi for assi}; ayuda tal (tal is ayudar con gente armada). . 55m-00| quimmoyaomamachtia =quinomoyaomamachti. nueuo enlas armas, o el que se ensaya de nueuo para pelear. ch>. 71m2-15| quitiyayaotla. they keep skirmishing against her. . b.2 f.7 p.119| tequiliz =yaoquizque intla. real, de gente de guerra. i +poss.phr>. 71m1-18| tlahtolyaotl. discord. . b.6 f.4 p.49| tlatequiliz =yaoquizque in. real, de gentes armadas; real de gente de guerra. i +poss.phr>. 55m-17| tlaxtlahuilo =yaotica ni. sueldo ganar assi (assi is sueldo en la guerra). . 55m- 18| tlazolyaotl. contention. . b.6 f.4 p.49| tzinquiza =yaoc ni. retraer#se en la batalla o retirar#se; retraer enla batalla o retirarse. . 55m- 17| tzinquiza =yaoc ni=yaoc onitzinquiz. retirarse enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoacalli. galera; galera {??printing error: gylera for galera}. . 71m1-12| yaoacalli Êstillan. fusta genero de naue; fusta. genero de naue. . 55m-10| yaoana =nite=oniteyaoan. captiuar en^guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoc. in enemy land; in war; in battle; war; battle; battlefield; region of battle. . b.2 f.7 p.122| yaocalaquia , hual-. they entered during war. . b.2 f.11 p.180| yaocalatlauhtli. caua de fortaleza. . 71m1- 5| yaocalcencahua =ni. guarnecer fortaleza. . 55m-10| yaocalcencahua =ni=oniyaocalcencauh. proueerla fortaleza delo necessario. . 71m2-5| yaocalchicahua =ni. guarnecer fortaleza. . 55m-10| yaocalchicahua =ni=oniyaocalchicauh. fortalecer y reparar fortaleza. . 71m2-5| yaocallahpaltilia =ni. guarnecer fortaleza. ll>. 55m-10| yaocallahpaltilia =ni=oniyaocallahpaltili. fortalecer y reparar fortaleza. ll>. 71m2- 5| yaocallapializtli. alcaidia de fortaleza; tenencia de fortaleza. ll>. 71m2-5| yaocallapixcayotl. alcaidia de fortaleza; tenencia de fortaleza. ll>. 71m2-5| yaocallapixqui. alcayde de fortaleza; alcaide de fortaleza; teniente de fortaleza. ll +y>x>. 55m- 00| yaocalli. fortaleza edificio; fortaleza; el edificio; fusta artillada; o cosa assi para pelear en la mar; guarida para defenderse. . 55m-10| yaocalli =huehcapan. torre para defender. . 55m-19| yaocalpializnehtolli. omenaje que haze el alcalde dela fortaleza; omenaje que heze el alcayde dela fortaleza {+heze-sp??}; omenaje que haze el alcaide dela fortaleza. . 55m-15| yaocaltlalatlauhtli. caua de fortaleza. . 71m1-5| yaocaltzonyotl. omenaje de torre; omenaje de torre de fortaleza. . 55m-15| yaocehuilia , qui-. he quiets the issue. . b.2 f.5 p.103| yaocehuiliztli =ne. treguas paz acierto dia; treguas paz hasta acierto tiempo. . 55m-19| yaochichihua , mo-. they arm themselves for war; them arm themselves for war; they array themselves for war. . b.3 f.1 p.2| yaochichihua =ni. guarnecer gente; para la guerra. . 55m-10| yaochichihua =nino. apercebirse o a parejarse pa la batalla; armarse para la guerra; apercebirse o aparejarse para la guerra; armarse para la^batalla. . 55m-1| yaochichihua =nino=oninoyaochichiuh. armarse para la^guerra. . 71m2-5| yaochichihua =nite. armar desta manera a otro (desta manera is armadura tal, o el acto de armarse (para la batalla)). . 71m1-2| yaochichihua =nite=oniteyaochichiuh. armar a otro desta manera (desta manera is armarse para la guerra). . 71m2-5| yaochichihua =tepoztlahuiztica nino. armarse de hierro. . 55m-1| yaochichihua =tepoztlahuiztica nite. armar a otro assi (assi is armarse de hierro). . 55m-1| yaochichihua =tepoztlahuiztica nino. armarse de hierro. . 71m1-2| yaochichihua =tepoztlahuiztica nite. armar a otro asi. . 71m1-2| yaochichihualiztli =ne. armadura assi (assi is armado). . 55m-1| yaochichihualiztli =tepoztlahuiztica ne. armadura tal (tal is armarse de hierro). . 55m-1| yaochichihualiztli =ne. armadura tal, o el acto de armarse (tal is armarse para la batalla). . 71m1-2| yaochichihualiztli =te. armadura tal (tal is armarse para la^batalla). . 71m1-2| yaochichihualiztli =tepoztlahuiztica ne. armadura tal (tal is armado armarse de hierro). . 71m1-2| yaochichihualiztli =ne. apercebimiento para pelear armandose. . 71m2-11| yaochichihuani =te. armador tal (tal is armarse para la^batalla). . 71m1-2| yaochichiuh , mo-. preparation for war was made. . b.8 f.1 p.10| yaochichiuhqueh , mo-. they each armed themselves for war; they arrayed themselves for battle. . b.3 f.1 p.3| yaochichiuhqueh , omo-. they girt themselves for battle; they were arrayed for battle. . b.9 f.5 p.64| yaochichiuhqui =mo. armado; armado assi (assi is armarse para la batalla); armado para batallar. . 55m-1| yaochichiuhqui =tepoztlahuiztica mo. armado assi (assi is armarse de hierro). . 55m-1| yaochichiuhtia , hualmo-. he went preparing himself for war. . b.8 f.2 p.22| yaochichiuhtiahqueh , mo-. they went arrayed for war. . b.12 f.2 p.29| yaochichiuhtiahqueh , hualmo-. they went preparing themselves for war. . b.12 f.4 p.59| yaochichiuhtihui , hualmo-. they go arraying for war. . b.9 f.2 p.18| yaochichiuhtihuia , mo-. . . b.9 f.2 p.17| yaochichiuhtihuitze , mo-. ; they come prepared for war; they come arrayed for war; they come in battle array. . b.8 f.1 p.18| yaochichiuhtli =tla. armado assi (assi is armarse para la^batalla). . 71m1-2| yaochihua , mo-. battle is waged. . b.2 f.12 p.190| yaochihua =nite. batallar pelear; batallar; combatir o pelear; guerra hazer; hazer guerra a otros; lidiar en esta manera (en esta manera is lid en trance de armas); lidiar enesta manera (enesta manera is lid en trance de armas); pelear. . 55m-2| yaochihua =nite=oniteyaochiuh. guerrear a otro. . 71m2-5| yaochihua =tehuicpa nite=tehuicpa oniteyaochiuh. hazer guerra alos enemigos de mis amigos. . 71m2-5| yaochihualiztli =ne. enemistad; lid en trance de armas; pelea. . 55m-7| yaochihualiztli =te. combate assi (assi is combatir o pelear); combate assi (assi is combatida cosa); guerra que se haze alos enemigos. . 55m-3| yaochihualoqueh. they were warred against. . b.9 f.1 p.3| yaochihuani =te. batallador que haze guerra alos contrarios; combatidor; contrario assi (assi is contrariar a alguno); contrario desta manera (desta manera is contrariar o contradezir a alguno); guerreador. . 71m2-16| yaochihuatzin. war woman. . b.2 f.14 p.236| yaochihuaya , mo-. battle was waged. . b.2 f.13 p.204| yaochihuaya , qui-. they made war for her. . b.1 f.1 p.15| yaochihuaya , quimon-. they made war on them. . b.9 f.1 p.3| yaochihuaya , quin-. they fought against them. . b.9 f.5 p.64| yaochihuaz , quin-. he will make war against them. . b.12 f.3 p.35| yaochiuh , qui-. he made war on it; he made war on him. . b.8 f.1 p.1| yaochiuhqueh , mo-. they made war on each other. . b.8 f.1 p.2| yaochiuhqueh , oquin-. they waged war against them. . b.8 f.2 p.21| yaochiuhqueh , quin-. they made war on them. . b.8 f.2 p.22| yaochiuhqui =te. batallador que haze guerra alos contrarios. . 71m2-16| yaochiuhtihui , quin-. they go fighting them. . b.2 f.1 p.50| yaochiuhtli =tla. combatido assi (assi is combatir o pelear); combatida cosa; guerreada cosa o combatida. . 55m-3| yaochuia , mo-. they make war on each other. . b.6 f.13 p.161| yaocihuatzin. war woman. . b.2 f.14 p.236| yaoctepalehuiani. ayudador tal (tal is ayuda assi). . 55m-00| yaocuecuentililiztli =ne. haz,^batalla ordenada.. . 71m1-12| yaocuecuentiliztli =ne. haz batalla ordenada; esquadron ordenado de batalla. . 55m- 10| yaocuentlaliliztli =ne. ordenanza de soldados; ordenanza o haz de soldados. . 71m1-16| yaocuitoh , con-. they went to gather it like enemies. . b.12 f.4 p.66| yaohtla. . . b.2 f.14 p.223| yaohuan , amo-. your [pl.] foes, your [pl.] enemies; your foes. . b.12 f.4 p.66| yaohuan , i-. his enemies; his adversaries; his foes. . b.2 f.1 p.55| yaohuan , in-. their adversaries, their enemies, their foes. . b.3 f.1 p.7| yaohuan , mo-. your enemies. . b.6 f.10 p.125| yaohuan , te-. foes. . b.2 f.7 p.122| yaohuan , to-. our foes, our adversaries, our enemies. . b.1 f.4 p.64| yaohui. . . b.6 f.13 p.161| yaoihmati =nino=oninoyaoihmat. ser diestro y entendido enlas cosas dela guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoihtacatl. victuallas, o mantenimiento para la guerra; vituallas para hueste. . 71m2-5| yaoihtacatl. provision for war, battle rations; war provision. . b.8 f.3 p.51| yaollatalhuia =nite. maherir para la guerra,apercebir o se¤alar. ll>. 71m1-14| yaomachiyonecaquiliztli. se¤as para se entender enla guerra. . 55m-18| yaomachiyonehcaliliztli. se¤as conque se entienden enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaomachtia =mo. esgremir el esgremidor; esgremidor. ch>. 55m-9| yaomachtia =nino=oninoyaomachtih. esgremir, o ensayarse para la guerra. ch>. 71m2-5| yaomachtia moyeyecoa in quenin tehuitequiz =mo. esgremir el esgremidor. ch>. 71m1-11| yaomachtiani =mo. esgremidor que esgrime; esgremidor. ch>. 55m-9| yaomahmahui. he is afraid of war. . b.10 f.2 p.24| yaomamachtia , mo-. he takes up arms. ch>. b.8 f.5 p.72| yaomamachtia =nino=oninoyaomamachtih. esgremir, o ensayarse para la guerra. ch>. 71m2-5| yaomamachtia =quimmo. ombre nueuo enlas armas. ch>. 55m-15| yaomamachtiani =mo. esgremidor o nueuo enla guerra; nueuo en la guerra. ch>. 71m2-10| yaomamachtiaya , mo-. they skirmished. ch>. b.1 f.2 p.39| yaomamachtihqui =mo. nueuo en la guerra; esgremidor o nueuo enla guerra. ch>. 55m-14| yaomana =nite=oniteyaoman. ordenar guerra contra algunos. . 71m2-5| yaomeh. foes, enemies. . b.12 f.7 p.109| yaomic , o-. he died in battle. . b.4 f.7 p.67| yaomic. he died in battle. . b.12 f.5 p.68| yaomicqueh , o-. they died in battle. . b.2 f.8 p.136| yaomicqueh. they died in war, ones who died in war; war dead. . b.6 f.1 p.13| yaomicqui. one who died in war. . b.6 f.1 p.12| yaomiqui. he dies in war; he dies in battle; they die in war; they die in battle. . b.2 f.1 p.49| yaomiquia. they died in war. . b.4 f.1 p.5| yaomiquico. he came to die in war. . b.6 f.10 p.114| yaomiquili , mo-. he [H.] died in war. . b.6 f.10 p.115| yaomiquitoh , o-. they went to die in war. . b.8 f.3 p.53| yaomiquiz. he will die in war; he will die in battle; they will die in war. . b.4 f.1 p.6| yaomiquizqueh. they will die in war. . b.10 f.11 p.177| yaonamiquitoh , quin-. they went to meet them in battle. . b.8 f.2 p.21| yaonechichiuhtli. armas para la guerra; armas para pelear. . 71m1-2| yaonechichiutli [scribal error: ??printing error: yaonechichiutli for yaonechichiuhtli: 55m]. armas para la guerra. . 55m-1| yaonemachtli. ardid de guerra. ch>. 55m-1| yaonepantlah. in the midst of the foe; in the midst of enemy land; in the middle of the battleground. . b.9 f.2 p.18| yaonotza =nite. llamar para la guerra. . 55m- 12| yaonotza =nite=oniteyaonotz. llamar para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaonotzaliztli =te. apellido de guerra, o el acto de tocar alarma; llamamiento tal (tal is llamar para la guerra). . 71m2-16| yaonotzani =te. el que apellida para la guerra, o el que toca alarma. . 71m2-16| yaoohtli. enemy path. . b.8 f.4 p.57| yaopalehuia =nite. guarnecer gente; para la guerra. . 55m-10| yaopalehuia =nite=oniteyaopalehui. guarnecer gente para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaopan , to-. on our foes, on our adversaries, on our enemies. . b.12 f.8 p.118| yaopan. at the battlefield; in a warlike place; in battle; in time of battle; in war; land of the foe; land of the enemy; to war. . b.4 f.1 p.3| yaopehuacoh. they came to begin war. . b.12 f.6 p.84| yaoquixoalotiuh. people go to set forth to war. x>. b.8 f.4 p.65| yaoquixoaya. there was setting out to battle. . b.4 f.7 p.70| yaoquixoaz. war will break out. x>. b.9 f.2 p.24| yaoquiza , on-. they set forth to battle. . b.8 f.4 p.65| yaoquiza , o[n]-. they set forth to war. . b.8 f.4 p.65| yaoquizaliztli. act of waging war, going forth to battle. . b.8 f.3 p.54| yaoquizatiuh. he goes forth to war; he goes forth to battle. . b.8 f.3 p.52| yaoquizatoh , o[n]-. they went forth to war. . b.8 f.4 p.65| yaoquizatoh. they went forth to battle. . b.8 f.1 p.4| yaoquizaya. they waged war. . b.8 f.3 p.51| yaoquizaz. he will come forth in war. . b.6 f.14 p.171| yaoquizazqueh. they will go to war. . b.10 f.11 p.177| yaoquizcapatiotl. sueldo, o paga de soldados. . 71m2-5| yaoquizcapatiyotl. sueldo en la guerra; sueldo enla guerra. . 55m-18| yaoquizcateca =nino. assentar real. . 55m-1| yaoquizcateca =nino=oninoyaoquizcatecac. asentar real. . 71m2-5| yaoquizcateca =tito. assentar real. . 71m1-3| yaoquizcatecaliztli =ne. assiento de real; assentado real; o assiento de real. . 55m-1| yaoquizcatepachoa =ni. capitanear. . 55m-3| yaoquizcatepachoa =ni=oniyaoquizcatepacho. capitanear enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoquizcatepachocayotl. capitania assi (assi is capitan); capitania tal (tal is capitan); officio de capitanear enla guerra. . 55m-2| yaoquizcatepachoh. capitan; caudillo; capitan de soldados. . 55m-2| yaoquizcatequiliztli =ne. assiento de real enla guerra. i>. 71m2-11| yaoquizcatlalia =nino. real asentar; real assentar. . 55m-17| yaoquizcatlaxtlahuilli. sueldo en la guerra. . 55m-18| yaoquizcatlaxtlahuilo =ni. sueldo ganar assi (assi is sueldo en la guerra). . 55m-18| yaoquizcatlaxtlahuilli. sueldo enla guerra; sueldo; o^paga de soldados. . 71m1-19| yaoquizcatzacua =nino. assentar real. . 55m-1| yaoquizcatzacua =nino=oninoyaoquizcatzacu. asentar real. . 71m2-5| yaoquizcatzacua =tito. assentar real. . 71m1-3| yaoquizcatzacualiztli =ne. assiento de real; assentado real; o assiento de real. . 55m-1| yaoquizcatzacuiliztli =ne. assiento de real enla guerra. i>. 71m2-11| yaoquizcayacana =ni. capitanear. . 55m-3| yaoquizcayacana =ni=oniyaoquizcayacan. capitanear enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoquizcayacancacayotl. capitania assi (assi is capitan). . 55m-2| yaoquizcayacancayotl. capitania tal (tal is capitan); officio de capitanear enla guerra. . 71m1-4| yaoquizcayacanqui. capitan; caudillo; capitan de soldados. . 55m-2| yaoquizque. batalla o exercito; esquadron; oexercito de soldados; exercito; hueste gente de guerra; hueste; gente de guerra; veste de gentes. . 55m-2| yaoquizque Întlamantin. escuadron batalla; guarnicion de gente. . 55m- 8| yaoquizque Întlamantin [scribal error: ??printing error: centlamatin for centlamantin: 55m]. pauesada de armados. . 55m-15| yaoquizque Întlamantin. escuadron de batalla; guarnicion de gente; pauesada de armados; vn esquadron de soldados. . 71m1-10| yaoquizque =icxinenenque. pauesada de armados. x +a>i>. 55m-15| yaoquizqueh. ; soldiers; warriors. . b.6 f.17 p.204| yaoquizqui. soldado de batalla; soldado. . 71m1-19| yaoquizqui. warrior. . b.8 f.3 p.51| yaot , o-. she fought. . b.6 f.15 p.187| yaot , otoh-. you made war. . b.6 f.16 p.194| yaot. she fought a battle. . b.6 f.14 p.167| [y]aotachcacahuan , i-. his war leaders. . b.9 f.1 p.5| yaotachcahua. war leaders. . b.8 f.5 p.87| yaotachcahuan. ; war leaders. . b.9 f.3 p.32| yaotachcauh. . . b.12 f.3 p.44| yaotachcauh. capitan; capitan de soldados; caudillo. . 55m-2| yaotachcauh. commander; war commander. . b.12 f.3 p.40| yaotachcauhti =ni. capitanear. . 55m-3| yaotachcauhti =ni=oniyaotachcauhtic. capitanear enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotachcauhyotl. capitania assi (assi is capitan); capitania tal (tal is capitan); officio de capitan de soldados. . 55m-2| yaoteca =ni. capitanear; guarnecer gente; para la guerra. . 71m1-4| yaoteca =ni=oniyaotecac. capitanear enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotecah. they dispose for battle. . b.8 f.5 p.88| yaotecani. battle director; one who instigates war; one who maneuvers troops; warlord. . b.12 f.3 p.40| yaotecaya. he presided over war. . b.12 f.8 p.118| yaotecoz. . . b.8 f.3 p.51| yaotecpanaliztli =ne. ordenanza de soldados; ordenanza o haz de soldados. . 71m1-16| yaotehuatoqueh. . . b.8 f.3 p.52| yaotenamitl. bulwark. . b.10 f.2 p.23| yaotenco. on the enemy border. . b.1 f.2 p.32| yaotenhuahqueh. those who hold the enemy borders. . b.1 f.2 p.32| yaoteoaque. . . b.8 f.4 p.57| yaotequi. . . b.8 f.3 p.43| yaotequihuah. . . b.2 f.3 p.70| yaotequihuah. capitan; capitan de guerra; caudillo. . 71m1-4| yaotequihuah , i-. . . b.4 f.3 p.24| yaotequihuah. seasoned warrior. . b.5 f.1 p.165| yaotequihuahqueh. seasoned warriors. . b.8 f.5 p.87| yaotequilia =nite=oniteyaotequili. capitanear enla guerra o ordenar los esquadrones para dar batalla. . 71m2- 5| yaotequilizli =ne [scribal error: ??printing error: neyaotequilitzli for neyaotequilizli; m1 and m5 have neyaotequilizli: 71m2]. ordenanza o haz de soldados. . 71m2-11| yaotequiliztli =ne. haz batalla ordenada; haz; ^batalla ordenada.. i>. 55m-10| yaotetzahuitl. omen of war. . b.1 f.1 p.11| yaotia , quimmo-. it preys on them; it wages war. . b.11 f.1 p.6| yaotia , quimo-. it attacks it; they prey on it. . b.11 f.2 p.18| yaotia =ninote. contrariar a alguno; contrariar o contradezir a alguno; enemistarse con otro. . 55m- 3| yaotia =ninote=oninoteyaoti. contender con alguno, o enemistarse con otro; . . 71m2-5| yaotianquiztli. market place in enemy lands. . b.10 f.2 p.24| yaotica. in battle. . b.12 f.2 p.27| yaotihua. one fights, people do battle; people wage war; there is going to war; people go to battle; war is waged. . b.8 f.5 p.72| yaotiliz , to-. our battle. . b.9 f.4 p.43| yaotiliztli =nete. contrariedad assi (assi is contrariar a alguno); contrariedad assi (assi is contrariar o contradezir a alguno); contencion; brega; o guerra. . 55m- 3| yaotiliztli. war. . b.8 f.3 p.52| yaotitlan. field of battle; in a warlike land; in enemy land; region of battle. . b.4 f.5 p.47| yaotitlanqueh , mo-. they were sent as war messengers. . b.8 f.2 p.39| yaotiz. he will war. . b.8 f.4 p.65| yaotl. . . b.6 f.1 p.11| yaotl. contrario enemigo; enemigo. . 55m-3| yaotl. !name=yaotl. . b.1 f.4 p.67| yaotl , necoc -. traitor. . b.10 f.2 p.38| yaotl. enemy; murderer. . b.1 f.1 p.5| yaotla =nite. batallar pelear; batallar; guerra hazer; pelear. . 55m-2| yaotla =nite=oniteyaotlac. hazer guerra a otros. . 71m2-5| yaotlachia =ni. atalayar en guerra. . 55m-1| yaotlachia =ni=oniyaotlachix. atalayar la centinela enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotlachializtli. el acto de atalayar assi (assi is atalayar la centinela enla guerra). . 71m2-5| yaotlachiani. alataya, o centinela; atalaya de guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotlachiani. sentinel. . b.10 f.2 p.24| yaotlachixqueh. spies, sentinels; they spied. . b.12 f.5 p.78| yaotlachixqui. alataya, o centinela; atalaya de guerra; espia de batalla. x>. 71m2-5| yaotlachixqui. sentinel. x>. b.12 f.6 p.97| yaotlahtalhuia =nite. maherir para la guerra, apercebir o se¤alar. . 55m-13| yaotlahtalhuia =nite=oniteyaotlatalhui. apercebir para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotlahtalhuiliztli =te. maherimiento de guerra. . 55m-13| yaotlahtoa =ni. maherir para la guerra, apercebir o se¤alar. . 55m-13| yaotlahtoa =ni=oniyaotlato. apercebir para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotlahtoa. he declares war; they announce war; they proclaim war. . b.8 f.4 p.65| yaotlahtoani. battle ruler; one who instigates war. . b.12 f.3 p.40| yaotlahtoaquetl. man of war. . b.2 f.14 p.240| yaotlahtoaya. they declared war. . b.4 f.9 p.91| yaotlahtoh. captain, leader in war; one who proclaims war. . b.2 f.14 p.227| yaotlahtolli. maherimiento de guerra. . 55m-13| yaotlahtolo. war is declared. . b.4 f.9 p.91| yaotlahtoloc , o-. war was declared. . b.4 f.7 p.70| yaotlahtoloz. there will be a declaration of war. . b.8 f.4 p.57| yaotlahtozqueh. they will announce war. . b.8 f.3 p.51| yaotlahueliloc. daring in battle; furious in battle; furious in war; intrepid in war; reckless in war. . b.4 f.6 p.51| yaotlahueliloqueh. intrepid warriors; perverted warriors; those who are furious in battle. . b.4 f.2 p.17| yaotlalhuia =nite. apercebir para la guerra; llamar para la guerra. . 55m-1| yaotlalhuia =nite=oniteyaotlalhui. apercebir a otros para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotlalhuiliztli =te. apercebimiento tal (tal is apercebir para la guerra); llamamiento tal (tal is llamar para la guerra); . . 55m-1| yaotlalhuiliztli =tla. apercebimiento tal (tal is apercebir para la guerra). . 71m1-2| yaotlalhuilli =tla. apercebido assi (assi is apercebir para la guerra); el que es llamado o apercebido para la guerra; llamado assi (assi is llamar para la guerra). . 55m- 1| yaotlalhuiloc , ote-. war was announced among people. . b.4 f.7 p.70| yaotlalia =nino. guarecerse. . 55m-10| yaotlalia =nino=. ponerse apunto para acometer al enemigo, o ponerse en buen puesto. . 71m2-5| yaotlaliliztli =ne. pelea, o contienda. . 71m2-11| yaotlaliloyan =ne. guarida para defenderse. . 55m-10| yaotlaliztli =ne. enemistad; escaramuza. . 55m- 7| yaotlanahuatiaya. he declared war. . b.9 f.2 p.24| yaotlani =te. batallador; guerreador. . 71m2- 16| yaotlapia =ni=oniyaotlapix. atalayar. . 71m2- 5| yaotlapializtica. guarding against the foe. . b.8 f.4 p.57| yaotlapializtli. guard, watch against enemies. . b.8 f.4 p.56| yaotlapialoya. estancia de veladores en batallas. . 55m-9| yaotlapialoyan. estancia de^veladores en la batalla; lugar para atalayar. . 71m1-11| yaotlapixque. escuchas de campo o espias; escuchas; o espias del campo. x>. 55m-8| yaotlapixqueh. sentries; they kept watch. x>. b.10 f.2 p.24| yaotlapixqui. espia de batalla; espia; atalaya; o centinela. x>. 55m-9| yaotlathuiliztli =te. . . 71m2-16| yaotlatia =nino. guarecerse. . 71m1-12| yaotlatiloyan =ne. fortaleza o guarida de soldados. . 71m2-11| yaotlatqui , in-. their war array, their war equipment; their battle dress; their battle gear; their battle equipment. . b.12 f.2 p.19| yaotlatquichichihua =ni=. hazer armas para soldados. . 71m2-5| yaotlatquichichiuhqui. armero que haze armas para soldado. . 71m2-5| yaotlatquichihua =ni. armas hazer; armas hazer para pelear. . 55m-1| yaotlatquichiuhqui. armero que haze armas. . 55m-1| yaotlatquitl. armas para la guerra; municion de guerra. . 55m-1| yaotlatquitl. battle gear; war array; war equipment; war goods. . b.12 f.3 p.50| yaotlatzotzonalo. there is beating of wardrums. . b.12 f.5 p.76| yaotle. ; O Yaotl!. . b.5 f.1 p.158| yaotzahtzi =ni. apellidar llamar a la guerra; apellidar; llamar para la guerra. . 55m-1| yaotzahtzi =ni=oniyaotzatzic. apellidar para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotzahtzic. el que apellida para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotzahtzilia =nite. apellidar llamar a la guerra; apellidar; llamar para la guerra. . 55m-1| yaotzahtzilia =nite=oniteyaotzatzili. . . 71m2-5| yaotzahtziliani =te. apellidador de guerra. . 71m2-16| yaotzahtzililiztli =te. apellido assi (assi is apellidar llamar a la guerra); apellido assi (assi is apellidar; llamar para la guerra); apellido de guerra; o maherimiento para ella. . 55m-1| yaotzahtziliztli. apellido assi (assi is apellidar llamar a la guerra); apellido assi (assi is apellidar; llamar para la guerra); apellido tal (tal is apellidar para la guerra). . 55m-1| yaotzin. !name=yaotzin. . b.3 f.3 p.51| yaotzine. !name=yaotzin-e2; !name=O yaotzin; O Yaotl. . b.6 f.1 p.11| yaotzintohpolto. . . b.10 f.2 p.24| yaouh , amo-. your [pl.] foe. . b.12 f.5 p.78| yaouh , i-. his enemy, his foe. . b.10 f.11 p.185| yaouh , mo-. ; your enemy. . b.6 f.13 p.160| yaouh , te-. murderer of people. . b.10 f.2 p.38| yaouh , to-. our enemy; our foe; our adversary. . b.6 f.5 p.55| yaouh =te. contrario enemigo; enemigo. . 55m-3| yaoxacalli. war hut. . b.10 f.2 p.24| yaoyahqueh , hual-. they went to war. . b.12 f.4 p.59| yaoyahualoa =nite. cercar los enemigos. . 55m-4| yaoyahualoa =nite=oniteyaoyahualo. cercar alos enemigos enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoyahualoani =te. el que cerca alos enemigos. . 71m2-16| yaoyahualoliztica =te. cercando, o atajando los enemigos. . 71m2-16| yaoyahualoliztli =te. cerco assi (assi is cercados enemigos); cerca desta manera (desta manera is cercar los enemigos); el acto de cercar alos enemigos. . 55m- 4| yaoyahualolo. it is encircled by foes; it is surrounded by enemies. . b.8 f.4 p.56| yaoyahualoloz. it will be surrounded by enemies. . b.6 f.7 p.81| yaoyahualolti =tla. cercados enemigos. . 55m-4| yaoyahualoltin =tla. cercados enemigos. . 71m1-6| yaoyotica. in battle; militarily. . b.12 f.3 p.35| yaoyotl. batalla o guerra; guerra; o batalla; pelea. . 55m-2| yaoyotl. war; warfare; battle. . b.1 f.1 p.1| yaoyotzin , mo-. your battle, your warfare. . b.6 f.15 p.185| yaoyouh , to-. our battle. . b.6 f.15 p.180| yayaopehualtia , quimmo-. they provoke them to battle. . b.2 f.1 p.50| yayaotla , mo-. they fight each other; they engage in mock fight. . b.2 f.9 p.149| yayaotla =nino. escaramuzar. . 55m-8| yayaotla =tito=otitoyayaotlaque. escaramuzar vnos con otros. . 71m2-5| yayaotlaliztli =ne. iuegos de pelea; juego de ca¤as; o escaramuza. . 55m-11| yayaotlalo , ne-. there is war-like behavior toward each other. . b.2 f.2 p.63| yayaotlani =mo. escaramuzador. . 55m-8| yecoa =yaoc nitla. batallar fuertemente; fuertemente batallar; trabajar fuertemente enla guerra. . 71m1- 3| yecoa =yaoc nitla=iaoc onitlayecoh. pelear fuertemente enla batalla. . 71m2-21| yecoa =yaoc nitla=yaoc onitlayeco. batallar, o pelear fuertemente enla guerra; pelear fuertemente enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yecoani =yaoc tla. guerreador. . 71m1- 12| yeya =yaotlapixque in. estancia de veladores en batallas. x>. 55m-9| yeyan =yaotlapixque in. estancia de^veladores en la batalla. x>. 71m1-11| yoayahualoa =nite. cercar los enemigos. . 71m1-6| Quoting "Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E." : > Dear colleagues, > > I am currently writing an article on the 'Women of Discord' in Aztec > history and would be grateful for your help in interpreting the name > of the goddess 'Yaocihuatl'. It is most often translated as > 'War/Warrior Woman', but Susan Gillespie, in 'The Aztec Kings' > translates the term as 'War Woman' on p.59 and as 'Woman of Discord' > on p.213. The former translation seems the most obvious, although > there are obviously linguistic roots with the term 'tlatolyaotl' > (translated as 'discord' in the Florentine Codex). I'd be very > grateful for any thoughts colleagues can offer on the translation or > interpretation of this name. > > Many thanks, > Caroline > ------- > Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock > Lecturer in Early Modern History > School of Historical Studies > University of Leicester > University Road > Leicester > LE1 7RH > > email: ced22 at le.ac.uk > http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sat Aug 8 07:20:44 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 09:20:44 +0200 Subject: Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl -- Location In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Many thanks to David Wright and Michel Oudijk for these valuable book tips. I presume most photos so far only depict Tizocic's famous temalacatl, or do these books / catalogues also show the more recently discovered stone that Michel Graulich identifies as commissioned by Axayacatl (rather than Motecuhzoma Ilhuicamina)? I could curse myself for not doing a thorough study of Tizocic's monument while in Mexico last year. I'm not sure where the other monument is located at present and whether it is on public display. Does anyone happen to know where it's housed today? Best wishes and thanks, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 8 16:35:33 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 11:35:33 -0500 Subject: Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl -- Location In-Reply-To: <49499.84.132.254.127.1249716044.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Estimado Gordon: The book by Matos and Solís has complete, fairly large scale, high resolution, roll-out color photos of both stones, the Piedra de Tízoc and the Piedra del ex Arzobispado. The earlier, more recently discovered sculpture is usually called the Piedra del ex Arzobispado after the place it was found, since it's not clear which Mexica lord commissioned it (actually most people write "Piedra del Ex-Arzobispado" or, as in the case of the Matos/Solís book, "Piedra del exArzobispado", but in Spanish ex is more properly written separate from the following word and without the hyphen). The last time I saw the latter piece it was in the Sala Mexica of the Museo Nacional de Antropología. That was a few years ago; I suppose it's still there. The latter sculpture helps us to interpret te former. A comparison of the toponymical signs in the conquest sign clusters shows that both sculptures register the same sequence of conquests, beginning with Colhuacan (as in the Codex Mendoza); the Piedra del ex Arzobispado has 11 conquests and the Piedra de Tízoc has the same 11 plus four more, for a total of 15. So the old interpretation of the 15 conquests on the latter sculpture being Tízoc's has been discarded; it now looks like just the last four were accomplished under this lord, and that the idea is to show a sequence of key Mexica conquests. Some of the water-mountains registered were conquered more than one time, according to other sources (like the Codex Mendoza), which opens up alternative possibilities for their place in the sequence. Of the four water-mountains that appear on the piedra de Tízoc but not on the Piedra del ex Arzobispado, only the first, Matlatzinco (represented by a relief of a triangular net, in position number 12, counting from Culhuacan) is registered among the conquests of Tízoc in the Codex Mendoza. I just did a quick search to see if I could find if the Piedra del ex Arzobispado is still in the Sala Mexica. I didn't find the answer, but I found an article from 2006 by López Austin that I had missed. Here's the link; it's freely available on REDALYC: http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/redalyc/pdf/369/36908907.pdf Saludos, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Gordon Whittaker Enviado el: sábado, 08 de agosto de 2009 02:21 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl -- Location Dear colleagues, Many thanks to David Wright and Michel Oudijk for these valuable book tips. I presume most photos so far only depict Tizocic's famous temalacatl, or do these books / catalogues also show the more recently discovered stone that Michel Graulich identifies as commissioned by Axayacatl (rather than Motecuhzoma Ilhuicamina)? I could curse myself for not doing a thorough study of Tizocic's monument while in Mexico last year. I'm not sure where the other monument is located at present and whether it is on public display. Does anyone happen to know where it's housed today? Best wishes and thanks, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ced22 at leicester.ac.uk Fri Aug 7 20:16:34 2009 From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk (Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E.) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 21:16:34 +0100 Subject: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: <4A7C7F27.2050308@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Many thanks to all those colleagues who have responded so far with helpful information. It's much appreciated and very helpful in trying to clarify this. I realise there is ambiguity, and that Gillespie is justified in interpreting in either way as appropriate. I'm just trying to get a sense of the word, whether it provides any clues to the specific nature of the goddess, and if one translation is more compelling than another. I think that John is right to clarify the cihuatl = woman aspect of this. Not only linguistically, but also contextually (and from Spanish glosses, e.g. Torquemada) the 'woman' element of Yaocihuatl is clear. It is the 'yao' component which appears ambiguous. Thanks again for all your responses (thus far and future)! Caroline ------- Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock Lecturer in Early Modern History School of Historical Studies University of Leicester University Road Leicester LE1 7RH email: ced22 at le.ac.uk http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ced22 at leicester.ac.uk Tue Aug 11 19:45:10 2009 From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk (Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E.) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 20:45:10 +0100 Subject: Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: <20090807184138.kt7b3ms2vk80oc0o@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Many thanks to all those of you who took the time to contact me about my query - your help is much appreciated. From what I can find, it seems that the phrase 'Woman of Discord' seems to come mostly from Spanish accounts of the relevant incidents, rather than being a direct translation of 'Yaocihuatl' which is more clearly 'War Woman'. I guess it's a more 'poetic' way of putting it, and makes sense in the Spanish contexts, although it needs addressing in my article directly I think, because 'war' isn't quite the same as 'discord'. Sincerely Caroline ------- Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock Lecturer in Early Modern History School of Historical Studies University of Leicester University Road Leicester LE1 7RH tel: 0116 223 1229 mobile: 07740675610 email: ced22 at le.ac.uk http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 20 00:56:11 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:56:11 -0500 Subject: Colonial Huastec Nahuatl Message-ID: Howdy, folks. Does anybody know of any written documents in Nahuatl from the Huasteca region of the colonial period (descriptions, Christian texts, manuscripts in archives, or anything else)? _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Thu Aug 20 11:12:41 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:12:41 +0200 Subject: Some grammar doubts Message-ID: Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but with no success. 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do not pronounce it, while some others do. 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part and the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with Spanish "calle"? 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this word come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? I would appreciate any comments. Thank you. Susana Moraleda _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 20 14:40:16 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:40:16 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <000a01ca2187$27087e10$d2e83697@susana> Message-ID: Cualli tonalli, Susana, Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in > Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across > the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but > with no success. > > 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? The latter NOCXIUH is definitely the "classic" Nahuatl form. The h, despite what people might say today in Mexico (your #2 below), is orthographic, i.e., it is not pronounced. The old Spaniards used "uh" to write /w/. Phonologically, the term is /nok$iw/, where /$/ is the sound written "sh" in English. NOCXI sounds modern dialectal, baby talk...or... just plain funny. > > 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do not > pronounce it, while some others do. > > 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part and > the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? The "water" morpheme in this term takes the form /al-/. In other words, in this term AL is 'water'. > > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with Spanish > "calle"? Nope. The two words just happen to sound the same, the same as French "ici" and Nahuatl "ici". No relationship. > > 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this word > come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? Ahmo nicmati. :-) > > I would appreciate any comments. > > Thank you. > Susana Moraleda > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From nekopixan at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 15:00:44 2009 From: nekopixan at gmail.com (Mizton Pixan) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:00:44 -0500 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <20090820104016.emk12a7yocws4ogc@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hello people, I'm new here, and I'm liking this lil group a lot :) Hm... I really have to differ about that H. They do pronounce it, but it's pretty subtile, I have spoken to several native people and they do pronounce it. Of course, not in every case. And "chanequeh" is a short form for "ohuican chanequi" (those who live in dangerous places). The term describes little spirits that protect nature.... pretty much like goblins, but they are usually not bad, just mischievous. See ya! On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Cualli tonalli, Susana, > > > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > > > Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in > > Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across > > the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but > > with no success. > > > > 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? > > > The latter NOCXIUH is definitely the "classic" Nahuatl form. The h, > despite what people might say today in Mexico (your #2 below), is > orthographic, i.e., it is not pronounced. The old Spaniards used "uh" > to write /w/. Phonologically, the term is > > /nok$iw/, where /$/ is the sound written "sh" in English. > > NOCXI sounds modern dialectal, baby talk...or... just plain funny. > > > > > > 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do > not > > pronounce it, while some others do. > > > > 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part > and > > the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? > > The "water" morpheme in this term takes the form /al-/. In other words, > in this term AL is 'water'. > > > > > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with > Spanish > > "calle"? > > Nope. The two words just happen to sound the same, the same as French > "ici" and Nahuatl "ici". No relationship. > > > > > 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this > word > > come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? > > Ahmo nicmati. :-) > > > > > I would appreciate any comments. > > > > Thank you. > > Susana Moraleda > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Si la vida te da la espalda... agárrale las nalgas. If life turns its back on you... grab its butt. Si la vie te tourne le dos... saisis lui les fesses. Wenn das Leben dir den Rücken zukehrt... ergreif seinen Po. Se la vita ti volta le spalle... afferragli il sedere. 人生に背を向けられれば... 尻を握ってやれ。 Intla in nemiliztli mitzneci icuetlapan... xquitzqui itzin :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Aug 20 15:03:49 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 11:03:49 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <000a01ca2187$27087e10$d2e83697@susana> Message-ID: For one thing, the two are pronounced quite differently, and so don't sound very much alike. As noted they have nothing in common, any more than the English word "red" (a color like scarlet) has with the Spanish word "red" (a net or network). Susana Moraleda wrote: > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with Spanish > "calle"? > I would appreciate any comments. > > Thank you. > Susana Moraleda > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 20 16:27:32 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:27:32 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's hard to explain why the orthographic -h would be pronounced, since it's purely functionally orthographic in nature. My *guess* is that the pronunciation is influenced by the spelling, as when people pronounce English "often" [AftEn], with a /t/; it's not part of the original pronunciation. Michael Quoting Mizton Pixan : > Hello people, I'm new here, and I'm liking this lil group a lot :) > > Hm... I really have to differ about that H. They do pronounce it, but it's > pretty subtile, I have spoken to several native people and they do pronounce > it. Of course, not in every case. > And "chanequeh" is a short form for "ohuican chanequi" (those who live in > dangerous places). The term describes little spirits that protect nature.... > pretty much like goblins, but they are usually not bad, just mischievous. > > See ya! > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: > >> Cualli tonalli, Susana, >> >> >> Quoting Susana Moraleda : >> >> > Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in >> > Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across >> > the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but >> > with no success. >> > >> > 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? >> >> >> The latter NOCXIUH is definitely the "classic" Nahuatl form. The h, >> despite what people might say today in Mexico (your #2 below), is >> orthographic, i.e., it is not pronounced. The old Spaniards used "uh" >> to write /w/. Phonologically, the term is >> >> /nok$iw/, where /$/ is the sound written "sh" in English. >> >> NOCXI sounds modern dialectal, baby talk...or... just plain funny. >> >> >> > >> > 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do >> not >> > pronounce it, while some others do. >> > >> > 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part >> and >> > the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? >> >> The "water" morpheme in this term takes the form /al-/. In other words, >> in this term AL is 'water'. >> >> > >> > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with >> Spanish >> > "calle"? >> >> Nope. The two words just happen to sound the same, the same as French >> "ici" and Nahuatl "ici". No relationship. >> >> > >> > 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this >> word >> > come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? >> >> Ahmo nicmati. :-) >> >> > >> > I would appreciate any comments. >> > >> > Thank you. >> > Susana Moraleda >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nahuatl mailing list >> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > -- > Si la vida te da la espalda... agárrale las nalgas. If life turns its back > on you... grab its butt. Si la vie te tourne le dos... saisis lui les > fesses. Wenn das Leben dir den Rücken zukehrt... ergreif seinen Po. Se la > vita ti volta le spalle... afferragli il sedere. ???????????... ???????? > Intla in nemiliztli mitzneci icuetlapan... xquitzqui itzin :) > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Thu Aug 20 16:55:15 2009 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:55:15 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <000a01ca2187$27087e10$d2e83697@susana> Message-ID: LISTCAN CHANEQUIH: 1- As Sr. McCafferty noted, NOXCIUH is the preferred form. In Classical Nahuatl, The dictionary form for "foot" is (i)cxi-tl. It loses the initial i when prefixed. The absolutive suffix is only present in the non-possessed form. The possessed suffix -uh is added when a noun stem ends in a vowel. A noun whose stem ends in a consonant, i.e. oquich-tli, does not take a possessed suffix, so "my man" would be noquich, without any suffix. 2- In classical Nahuatl, the written sequences HU and UH are digraphs, two letters to denote one sound, viz. /w/. H in any other place is for a glottal stop (sounding like the t in kitten). The glottal stop has been lost from most modern varieties of Nahuatl, and is now a more or less weakly-aspirated /h/. So sometimes H is silent (in UH and HU), and sometimes it is not (elsewhere, unless there is some dialect which has lost it completely) On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Susana Moraleda wrote: > Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in > Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across > the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but > with no success. > > 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? > > 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do not > pronounce it, while some others do. > > 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part > and > the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? > > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with > Spanish > "calle"? > > 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this > word > come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? > > I would appreciate any comments. > > Thank you. > Susana Moraleda > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Thu Aug 20 18:16:43 2009 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:16:43 -0400 Subject: Pronunciation of orthographic h Message-ID: I think we need to untangle some different "h"s here. As mentioned, orthographic hu-/-uh represents /w/. Hu- is used syllable-initially, and -uh finally. There is a universal devoicing rule that applies to syllable-final consonants in Nahuatl, so -uh represents a slightly different pronunciation than hu-. Then there is the h that represents "saltillo," which was pronounced as a glottal stop by speakers in the central area of Nahuatl, but as an h-like aspiration in peripheral variants of the language. This one is always syllable-final, but in reduplicated forms such as ihi:yo:tl, it can be found followed by a vowel. And then again, there is prosodic -h to be heard at the end of vowel- final words. This is not a segmental consonant, but it's handy to distinguish vowel-final words from words with whispered but true final consonants. (I.e., if it sounds like it ends in /h/ or glottal stop, then it really ends in a vowel. If it sounds like it ends in a vowel, it really ends in a consonant. Isn't that enough to make you crazy?) And finally, in some variants of Nahuatl, where there is a consonant cluster across syllable boundary inside a word, the first consonant undergoes that same devoicing as mentioned above and is whispered. So for calli one hears cahli, etc. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 20 19:20:16 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:20:16 -0500 Subject: Some grammar doubts Message-ID: People pretty well answered Susana's questions. I just have one more comment to add. In the standard enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, Karttunen, Bierhorst, and others, the letter h can be a glottal stop /?/, or it can be used to write the phoneme /w/, when it appears in the digraphs hu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uh (at the end of a syllable). All of that was explained by Jesse. What I want to add is that in some colonial Nahuatl manuscripts we find the sequence cuh, apparently used to write the phoneme /kw/ (like /k/ produced with rounded lips), often written with the digraphs cu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uc (at the end of a syllable). In colonial practice cu and cuh were also used at the end of a syllable instead of uc. One very prominent example is tecuhtli (which would be written teuctli in the enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, Karttunen, and Bierhorst, being the phonemic sequence /tekwtli/, where the /kw/ is one phoneme as described above). This word, when used in compound nouns preceding other morphemes, is reduced to the root teuc- /tekw/. Examples of this are Moteuczoma /motekwsoma/, the name of two tenochca lords, and Tlalteuctli /tlaltekwtli/, a terrestrial deity. These names can be found in colonial documents (and even in modern academical texts written by phonetically naive authors) written as Motecuhzoma and Tlaltecuhtli, giving the false impression that they contain the syllable /cuh/, when in realty the sequence cuh is nothing more than the phoneme /kw/. This matter has been discussed on this list in past years, and the matter is complicated somewhat by the existence in a few modern varieties of Nahuatl of the form /tekohtli/ (or something like that), sometimes written tecuhtli (there is no vowel /u/ in colonial Nahuatl except as an allophone or pronunciation variant of /o/), for example in Milpa Alta, D.F. John Sullivan provided a similar example from contemporary Huastecan Nahuatl, if I remember correctly. Karttunen suggested on this list that these forms may be "spelling pronunciations" influenced by traditional conventions in written texts, but as far as I could see the matter was not resolved to everybody's satisfaction. What I really wanted to say is that the letter h in the sequence cuh is probably superfluous. I suspect colonial authors added it because uh was used for /w/, so adding it to the digraph cu (for /kw/) merely reinforced, in a redundant way, the roundness of the lips when pronouncing /kw/, in addition to making it clear that cuh was not to be read as the syllable cu (that is, writing cu for /co/ and thinking of the allophone [u] for the phoneme /o/). Sorry for being a bit pedantic; I had envisioned a simpler comment when I started writing this post. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 20 19:27:59 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:27:59 -0500 Subject: Some grammar doubts Message-ID: P.S. I carelessly hit the send button before adding the long vowel marks (:). They're not essential to the matter being discussed, but for the sake of accuracy here goes the message again with the (probable) long vowels marked. ************************************************* People pretty well answered Susana's questions. I just have one more comment to add. In the standard enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, Karttunen, Bierhorst, and others, the letter h can be a glottal stop /?/, or it can be used to write the phoneme /w/, when it appears in the digraphs hu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uh (at the end of a syllable). All of that was explained by Jesse. What I want to add is that in some colonial Nahuatl manuscripts we find the sequence cuh, apparently used to write the phoneme /kw/ (like /k/ produced with rounded lips), often written with the digraphs cu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uc (at the end of a syllable). In colonial practice cu and cuh were also used at the end of a syllable instead of uc. One very prominent example is tecuhtli (which would be written te:uctli in the enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, Karttunen, and Bierhorst, being the phonemic sequence /te:kwtli/, where the /kw/ is one phoneme as described above). This word, when used in compound nouns preceding other morphemes, is reduced to the root te:uc- /te:kw/. Examples of this are Mote:uczo:ma /mote:kwso:ma/, the name of two tenochca lords, and Tla:lte:uctli /tla:lte:kwtli/, a terrestrial deity. These names can be found in colonial documents (and even in modern academical texts written by phonetically naive authors) written as Motecuhzoma and Tlaltecuhtli, giving the false impression that they contain the syllable /cuh/, when in realty the sequence cuh is nothing more than the phoneme /kw/. This matter has been discussed on this list in past years, and the matter is complicated somewhat by the existence in a few modern varieties of Nahuatl of the form /te:kohtli/ (or something like that), sometimes written tecuhtli (there is no vowel /u/ in colonial Nahuatl except as an allophone or pronunciation variant of /o/), for example in Milpa Alta, D.F. John Sullivan provided a similar example from contemporary Huastecan Nahuatl, if I remember correctly. Karttunen suggested on this list that these forms may be "spelling pronunciations" influenced by traditional conventions in written texts, but as far as I could see the matter was not resolved to everybody's satisfaction. What I really wanted to say is that the letter h in the sequence cuh is probably superfluous. I suspect colonial authors added it because uh was used for /w/, so adding it to the digraph cu (for /kw/) merely reinforced, in a redundant way, the roundness of the lips when pronouncing /kw/, in addition to making it clear that cuh was not to be read as the syllable cu (that is, writing cu for /co/ and thinking of the allophone [u] for the phoneme /o/). Sorry for being a bit pedantic; I had envisioned a simpler comment when I started writing this post. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 22:06:00 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 17:06:00 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 142, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Susana 1. Both are correct depending on what kind of Nahuatl. In classical Nahuatl adding the final -w is a sign that the noun is possessed and it hould be added. In modern nahuatl that final -w is often pronounced very weakly (as a soft english h) or no at all. So 2. In Classical nahuatl the letter h is used together with the letter u write the sound /w/ as in icxiuh should be pronounced ikshiw. In many modern Nahuatl dialects there is an h sound very similar to the english one - . In some modern orthographies this sund is written with the letter j but should be pronounced as the english sound h. In other orthographies it is written with h. This h sound corresponds more or less to the glottal stop/saltillo in classical Nahuatl. In some classical orthographies (e.g. the one used by frances Karttunen) this glottal stop is written with the letter h. 3.We don't know we just know that when /a:-tl/ is prefixed to other words often there appears an extra l. Not just in a:ltepe.tl but also in palce names like alpuyeca from /a:lpo:yecca:n/. Sometimes other uto-Aztecan languages have n or r where nahuatl has l like this. Karen Dakin suggests that these l's then come from a previous proto-uto-aztecan *r which sometimes surfaces as weird l's in Nahuatl. 4. no. It has to do with the word calli "house". Calli comes from the proto-uto-Aztecan word generally reconstructed as *kahni "house". Calle comes from latin callis "path". 5. Chanehqueh are anyone who has a home. The mythical cha:nequeh are spirits inhabiting certain parts of nature - e.g. springs, caves, watercrossings. best regards Magnus Pharao Hansen . --- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Susana Moraleda" > To: > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:12:41 +0200 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Some grammar doubts > Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in > Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across > the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but > with no success. > > 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? > > 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do not > pronounce it, while some others do. > > 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part > and the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? > > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with > Spanish "calle"? > > 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this > word come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? > > I would appreciate any comments. > > Thank you. > Susana Moraleda > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 20 22:22:37 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:22:37 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <001501ca21cb$42547770$c6fd6650$@net.mx> Message-ID: Quoting David Wright : > People pretty well answered Susana's questions. I just have one more comment > to add. In the standard enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, > Karttunen, Bierhorst, and others, the letter h can be a glottal stop /?/, or > it can be used to write the phoneme /w/, when it appears in the digraphs hu > (at the beginning of a syllable) and uh (at the end of a syllable). All of > that was explained by Jesse. What I want to add is that in some colonial > Nahuatl manuscripts we find the sequence cuh, apparently used to write the > phoneme /kw/ (like /k/ produced with rounded lips), often written with the > digraphs cu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uc (at the end of a > syllable). In colonial practice cu and cuh were also used at the end of a > syllable instead of uc. One very prominent example is tecuhtli (which would > be written teuctli in the enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, > Karttunen, and Bierhorst, being the phonemic sequence /tekwtli/, Listeros: This is actually /te:kwtli/. Long /e:/. Terms that appear between / and / are *phonemic* spellings and necessitate the indicating of vowel lengths. where the > /kw/ is one phoneme as described above). This word, when used in compound > nouns preceding other morphemes, is reduced to the root teuc- /tekw/. /te:kw-/ > Examples of this are Moteuczoma /motekwsoma/, /mote:kwso:ma:/ the name of two tenochca > lords, and Tlalteuctli /tlaltekwtli/ /tla:lte:kwtli/ Michael , > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 20 22:23:12 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:23:12 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <001601ca21cc$55d26fe0$01774fa0$@net.mx> Message-ID: Ah..and now we have them. ;-) Quoting David Wright : > P.S. I carelessly hit the send button before adding the long vowel marks > (:). They're not essential to the matter being discussed, but for the sake > of accuracy here goes the message again with the (probable) long vowels > marked. > > ************************************************* > > People pretty well answered Susana's questions. I just have one more comment > to add. In the standard enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, > Karttunen, Bierhorst, and others, the letter h can be a glottal stop /?/, or > it can be used to write the phoneme /w/, when it appears in the digraphs hu > (at the beginning of a syllable) and uh (at the end of a syllable). All of > that was explained by Jesse. What I want to add is that in some colonial > Nahuatl manuscripts we find the sequence cuh, apparently used to write the > phoneme /kw/ (like /k/ produced with rounded lips), often written with the > digraphs cu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uc (at the end of a > syllable). In colonial practice cu and cuh were also used at the end of a > syllable instead of uc. One very prominent example is tecuhtli (which would > be written te:uctli in the enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, > Karttunen, and Bierhorst, being the phonemic sequence /te:kwtli/, where the > /kw/ is one phoneme as described above). This word, when used in compound > nouns preceding other morphemes, is reduced to the root te:uc- /te:kw/. > Examples of this are Mote:uczo:ma /mote:kwso:ma/, the name of two tenochca > lords, and Tla:lte:uctli /tla:lte:kwtli/, a terrestrial deity. These names > can be found in colonial documents (and even in modern academical texts > written by phonetically naive authors) written as Motecuhzoma and > Tlaltecuhtli, giving the false impression that they contain the syllable > /cuh/, when in realty the sequence cuh is nothing more than the phoneme > /kw/. > > This matter has been discussed on this list in past years, and the matter is > complicated somewhat by the existence in a few modern varieties of Nahuatl > of the form /te:kohtli/ (or something like that), sometimes written tecuhtli > (there is no vowel /u/ in colonial Nahuatl except as an allophone or > pronunciation variant of /o/), for example in Milpa Alta, D.F. John Sullivan > provided a similar example from contemporary Huastecan Nahuatl, if I > remember correctly. Karttunen suggested on this list that these forms may be > "spelling pronunciations" influenced by traditional conventions in written > texts, but as far as I could see the matter was not resolved to everybody's > satisfaction. > > What I really wanted to say is that the letter h in the sequence cuh is > probably superfluous. I suspect colonial authors added it because uh was > used for /w/, so adding it to the digraph cu (for /kw/) merely reinforced, > in a redundant way, the roundness of the lips when pronouncing /kw/, in > addition to making it clear that cuh was not to be read as the syllable cu > (that is, writing cu for /co/ and thinking of the allophone [u] for the > phoneme /o/). > > Sorry for being a bit pedantic; I had envisioned a simpler comment when I > started writing this post. > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 20 23:33:24 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:33:24 -0500 Subject: Some grammar doubts Message-ID: Michael's comment made me read over what I had written in my second post and I see that the last part is a bit sloppy. Here it is again, in a more comprehensible form (I hope). What I really wanted to say is that the letter h in the sequence cuh is probably superfluous. I suspect some colonial period authors added it because uh was used for /w/, so adding the letter h to the digraph cu (for /kw/) merely reinforced, in a redundant way, the roundness of the lips when pronouncing /kw/. If in traditional Nahuatl spelling (derived from Spanish spelling) c was used to represent /k/ before the vowels /a/, /o/, and /u/, and uh was used for /w/ in syllable-final position, then cuh was a reasonable way to write the phoneme that some modern linguists represent, in a similar fashion, with /kw/ (superscript w). Thus cu, uc, and cuh all represent the phoneme /kw/. E-mail works faster then my mind. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 21 04:51:53 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:51:53 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <002501ca21ee$9cbac7a0$d63056e0$@net.mx> Message-ID: Quoting David Wright : > > E-mail works faster then my mind. David, I can relate! My email seems to have a mind of its own, and *then* my mind generally kicks in after I've pressed "Send message". Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 21 07:35:51 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:35:51 +0200 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, I noticed that the question of Nahuatl terms beginning with a:l- 'water' has come up. This is probably a remnant of a juxtaposition of a:tl (freestanding) with a second term, either a two-part nominal phrase such as (in) a:tl (in) tepe:tl 'water and mountain', that is, 'community', etc., or an original sequence of other nature (noun + verb-derived locative), as in a number of toponyms. Cf. personal names such as (also )and (also ). Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 21 08:13:09 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:13:09 +0200 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, David Wright has referred to the use of spellings such as tecuhtli 'lord' by "phonemically naive authors". I guess I must be one of them. I do wish we could just acknowledge the validity of variant spellings, provided such spellings are consistent and predictable. Ever since Andrews revolutionized Nahuatl studies back in the '70s those learning on Nahuatl have been subjected to charges that they are naive, ignorant, or colonial-minded simply because they use for /kw/. Andrews himself is largely responsible for this dogmatic stance. He has fulminated against this spelling and has even had the chutzpah to deplore Tezozomoc's alleged lack of an elegant Nahuatl style. Although even princes of the house of Tenochtitlan were subject to the same deficits in character and skill that we are, it still seems amazing that a non-native speaker (or speaker at all?) of Nahuatl, let alone Classical Nahuatl, for which there are no native speakers left, would dare to utter such a pronouncement. Are we really that far along that we can dare make such statements? As for tecuhtli (te:cuhtli), David has rightly mentioned that there are dialect variants. Spellings in Classical and Colonial-period texts such as and reflect this. We find the latter in the common term 'Your (lit. 'Our') Lordship', 'Our Lord'. If, however, we rail against the devices and for syllable-final /kw/, we should keep in mind that this is like railing against the use of German for a single phoneme in, e.g., no less a word than Deutsch 'German'. These are simply spelling conventons, no more, no less, but conventions with a long tradition. The problem lies not with the use of a digraph for but with the lack of attention given to the statement given in standard grammars of Classical Nahuatl that there is no /u/ vowel in the language. Thus, *all* instances of in spellings must be signalling something else, as in , , and, of course, the now shibboleth-like . Fran Karttunen, whose dictionary and other work I greatly admire, criticizes the use of in her dictionary, following Andrews' statement that those who use simply show their ignorance of Nahuatl. But we shouldn't forget: just as beginners (and non-learners) are prone to pronounce as tay-KU-tli, so too are they likely to pronounce as tay-UK-tli. These are the things one learns to avoid early in the study of any language and its conventions. I remember a well-known art historian from the U.S. Northeast once pronouncing Xipe as ZAI-pee (ZAI as in sigh) and Tezcatlipoca as Tez-kat-LI-po-ka, with the as in English. Yes, I know, but she didn't profess to have studied the language. Should we change the spellings to help her and others avoid these mistakes in future. If so, to whose spellings? Phonemic spellings with single graphs also need to be learned before they can be correctly pronounced. So let's stop being pedantic and criticizing other people's preferences if consistently applied and hallowed by tradition (including by several members of the Motecuhzoma family). Otherwise let's get rid of all the digraphs abounding in the spelling sanctioned by Andrews for Nahuatl. It's not a religion, after all! Best wishes, Gordon > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:27:59 -0500 > From: "David Wright" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Some grammar doubts > > P.S. I carelessly hit the send button before adding the long vowel marks > (:). They're not essential to the matter being discussed, but for the sake > of accuracy here goes the message again with the (probable) long vowels > marked. > > ************************************************* > > People pretty well answered Susana's questions. I just have one more > comment > to add. In the standard enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, > Karttunen, Bierhorst, and others, the letter h can be a glottal stop /?/, > or > it can be used to write the phoneme /w/, when it appears in the digraphs > hu > (at the beginning of a syllable) and uh (at the end of a syllable). All of > that was explained by Jesse. What I want to add is that in some colonial > Nahuatl manuscripts we find the sequence cuh, apparently used to write the > phoneme /kw/ (like /k/ produced with rounded lips), often written with the > digraphs cu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uc (at the end of a > syllable). In colonial practice cu and cuh were also used at the end of a > syllable instead of uc. One very prominent example is tecuhtli (which > would > be written te:uctli in the enhanced traditional orthography used by > Andrews, > Karttunen, and Bierhorst, being the phonemic sequence /te:kwtli/, where > the > /kw/ is one phoneme as described above). This word, when used in compound > nouns preceding other morphemes, is reduced to the root te:uc- /te:kw/. > Examples of this are Mote:uczo:ma /mote:kwso:ma/, the name of two tenochca > lords, and Tla:lte:uctli /tla:lte:kwtli/, a terrestrial deity. These names > can be found in colonial documents (and even in modern academical texts > written by phonetically naive authors) written as Motecuhzoma and > Tlaltecuhtli, giving the false impression that they contain the syllable > /cuh/, when in realty the sequence cuh is nothing more than the phoneme > /kw/. > > This matter has been discussed on this list in past years, and the matter > is > complicated somewhat by the existence in a few modern varieties of Nahuatl > of the form /te:kohtli/ (or something like that), sometimes written > tecuhtli > (there is no vowel /u/ in colonial Nahuatl except as an allophone or > pronunciation variant of /o/), for example in Milpa Alta, D.F. John > Sullivan > provided a similar example from contemporary Huastecan Nahuatl, if I > remember correctly. Karttunen suggested on this list that these forms may > be > "spelling pronunciations" influenced by traditional conventions in written > texts, but as far as I could see the matter was not resolved to > everybody's > satisfaction. > > What I really wanted to say is that the letter h in the sequence cuh is > probably superfluous. I suspect colonial authors added it because uh was > used for /w/, so adding it to the digraph cu (for /kw/) merely reinforced, > in a redundant way, the roundness of the lips when pronouncing /kw/, in > addition to making it clear that cuh was not to be read as the syllable cu > (that is, writing cu for /co/ and thinking of the allophone [u] for the > phoneme /o/). > > Sorry for being a bit pedantic; I had envisioned a simpler comment when I > started writing this post. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 08:53:51 2009 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:53:51 +0000 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: <49238.82.54.176.143.1250842389.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID:  --- On Thu, 20/8/09, Susana Moraleda wrote:  >   1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct?  >   2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do not  >   pronounce it, while some others do. Nahuatl final -uh after a vowel is pronounced like English "w" in "wet". >  3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part and >  the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? "a_ltepe_tl" (_ = long vowel) started as two separate nouns" a_tl tepe_tl" = "it is water [and] it is a hill" (becuse a village needs water to drink and to irrigate with, and a hill to defend itself from enemies on), and the consonant sequence -tlt- changed by sandhi effect to -lt- . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandhi Citlalyani. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From macehual08 at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 22:22:23 2009 From: macehual08 at gmail.com (macehual08 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:22:23 -0400 Subject: veintena Message-ID: Hello,Could anyone tell me who coined the term "veintena" to describe the 18 "months" of the xihuitl "calendar"? Or anything about how or when it came into scholarly use? Alternatively, do you know who among the earliest chroniclers used the term? (Sahagún, for example, seems mostly to use the term "mes.") Or, does anyone know the Nahua equivalent? (I've read in several places that the term is unknown.) Thanks. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 21 16:41:40 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:41:40 -0500 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl In-Reply-To: <49222.82.54.176.143.1250840151.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: The same thought crossed my mind, Gordon, intertwined with the memory of Coatlichan, (Coatl Ichan), "the snake his house" ("house of the snake"), often written as one word but evidently two, because of the first element conserving its absolutive prefix. As for altepetl, together with the two examples you provide of /tl/ + /t/ > /lt/, it looks like we can add this to our list of regular (albeit scarce) morphophonological changes. Andrews lists most of these changes, but I think he missed this one. I would be most grateful if you could provide documental references for Xihuiltemoc and Ihuiltemoc, to nail this down. One word doesn't make a rule, but with three I think it's worth going for. I'd like to add this to the section on morphophonology in the second edition of my book Lectura del Náhuatl. I promise to cite your post. (The first edition has a few citations of Nahuat-l posts too). Listeros: what do you think? Saludos, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Gordon Whittaker Enviado el: viernes, 21 de agosto de 2009 02:36 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl Hi everyone, I noticed that the question of Nahuatl terms beginning with a:l- 'water' has come up. This is probably a remnant of a juxtaposition of a:tl (freestanding) with a second term, either a two-part nominal phrase such as (in) a:tl (in) tepe:tl 'water and mountain', that is, 'community', etc., or an original sequence of other nature (noun + verb-derived locative), as in a number of toponyms. Cf. personal names such as (also Xihuitltemoc>)and (also ). Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 21 16:58:06 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:58:06 -0500 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: <49238.82.54.176.143.1250842389.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Gordon: I too have published papers with the cuh for /kw/ spelling, and have taught students to say mo-te-cu-so-ma instead of moc-te-su-ma, back when I was phonetically more naive than today. I'm grateful to Andrews, Kartunnen, Campbell, Lockhart, et al. for showing me the way to Carochi and taking me beyond the seminal but dated Garibay-Sullivan school and closer to the phonological essence of early colonial Nahuatl. Of course, anyone can spell things however they want (unless an editor gets in their way). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cdberry at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:08:18 2009 From: cdberry at gmail.com (Craig Berry) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:08:18 -0700 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: <49238.82.54.176.143.1250842389.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 01:13, Gordon Whittaker wrote: [snip] > and Tezcatlipoca as Tez-kat-LI-po-ka, with the as in English. I'm a relative novice, so please humor me. Other than the misplaced syllable emphasis, what's wrong with that rendering? Using informal phonetics, I'd render Tezcatlipoca as something like "tez-kah-tli-PO-cah", with a secondary stress on the first syllable. My 'z' would be as in English. How wide of the mark am I? -- Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ "Lots of things in the universe don’t solve any problems, and nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cdberry at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:22:55 2009 From: cdberry at gmail.com (Craig Berry) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:22:55 -0700 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:11, Mizton Pixan wrote: > The "Z" in "Tezcatlipoca" should be pronounced /s/. Is there any pronunciation difference between that 'z' and the 's' in "mescal"? -- Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ "Lots of things in the universe don’t solve any problems, and nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From nekopixan at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:11:10 2009 From: nekopixan at gmail.com (Mizton Pixan) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:11:10 -0500 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: <8dee73060908211008j58e3a9e5i9922facc6cc64de5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The "Z" in "Tezcatlipoca" should be pronounced /s/. On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Craig Berry wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 01:13, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > [snip] > > and Tezcatlipoca as Tez-kat-LI-po-ka, with the as in English. > > I'm a relative novice, so please humor me. Other than the misplaced > syllable emphasis, what's wrong with that rendering? Using informal > phonetics, I'd render Tezcatlipoca as something like > "tez-kah-tli-PO-cah", with a secondary stress on the first syllable. > My 'z' would be as in English. How wide of the mark am I? > > -- > Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > "Lots of things in the universe don’t solve any problems, and > nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Si la vida te da la espalda... agárrale las nalgas. If life turns its back on you... grab its butt. Si la vie te tourne le dos... saisis lui les fesses. Wenn das Leben dir den Rücken zukehrt... ergreif seinen Po. Se la vita ti volta le spalle... afferragli il sedere. 人生に背を向けられれば... 尻を握ってやれ。 Intla in nemiliztli mitzneci icuetlapan... xquitzqui itzin :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 21 17:32:50 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:32:50 +0200 Subject: Mes, veintena and trecena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Paul, We do actually have a Classical Nahuatl term for 'month'. It's the same as the one for 'moon': me:tztli. As for the origin of veintena, good question! I, too, would like to know who first used trecena and veintena in a Mesoamerican sense. Best, Gordon > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:22:23 -0400 > From: "macehual08 at gmail.com" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] veintena > > Hello,Could anyone tell me who coined the term "veintena" to describe the > 18 > "months" of the xihuitl "calendar"? Or anything about how or when it came > into scholarly use? > > Alternatively, do you know who among the earliest chroniclers used the > term? > (Sahag?n, for example, seems mostly to use the term "mes.") > > Or, does anyone know the Nahua equivalent? (I've read in several places > that > the term is unknown.) > > Thanks. > Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 21 17:37:48 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:37:48 +0200 Subject: Nahuatl as in In-Reply-To: <8dee73060908211022h34a04d27y3fc7b7f6e3bd9eba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Craig, No. Wherever you see a Nahuatl you can safely pronounce it /s/. , on the other hand, in a Classical Nahuatl text is just another way of writing (as in English ). > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:11, Mizton Pixan wrote: >> The "Z" in "Tezcatlipoca" should be pronounced /s/. > > Is there any pronunciation difference between that 'z' and the 's' in > "mescal"? > > Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cdberry at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:54:32 2009 From: cdberry at gmail.com (Craig Berry) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:54:32 -0700 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:38, Mizton Pixan wrote: > No, there is no difference. Actually Craig, the /z/ sound doesn't exist in Thank you. I'd been giving the 'z' a bit more of a buzz sound...I'll unlearn that habit now. -- Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ "Lots of things in the universe don’t solve any problems, and nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 21 18:11:30 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 20:11:30 +0200 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: sources; Cuauhtinchan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David, Oops! You caught me with my pants down! I'm travelling in Italy right now, so my access to sources is rather limited for the next couple of weeks. I think Xihuiltemoc is in Ixtlilxochitl, not that that helps much, given the garbled form of the surviving manuscripts. But I'm pretty sure it occurs in bona fide Nahuatl texts of the 16th century. Since the name is a prominent elite name, it is found in a variety of sources. There are actually a number of additional examples of becoming in the literature, always spanning word boundaries, so it is indeed, as you say, a sandhi phenomenon. Perhaps someone hovering in cyberspace can help us out here with further examples. The place names Alpoyeccan and Almoloyan seem to be construed as A:tl Poyecca:n 'Where is Water Is Salty' and A:tl Molo:yya:n 'Where the Water Swirls'. These contrast with the more common construction noun + i:-possessive+verbstem+locative (e.g. Atlicalaquiyan, which is properly speaking two words). As you rightly point out, Coatlichan is a juxtaposition of two words, not a compound. Cuauhtinchan is a another nice example of partial assimilation of freestanding words -- standing for Cua:uh-tin I:n-ch:an 'Home of the Eagles'. Best, Gordon > Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:41:40 -0500 > From: "David Wright" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl > > The same thought crossed my mind, Gordon, intertwined with the memory of > Coatlichan, (Coatl Ichan), "the snake his house" ("house of the snake"), > often written as one word but evidently two, because of the first element > conserving its absolutive prefix. > > As for altepetl, together with the two examples you provide of /tl/ + /t/ > > > /lt/, it looks like we can add this to our list of regular (albeit scarce) > morphophonological changes. Andrews lists most of these changes, but I > think > he missed this one. I would be most grateful if you could provide > documental > references for Xihuiltemoc and Ihuiltemoc, to nail this down. One word > doesn't make a rule, but with three I think it's worth going for. I'd like > to add this to the section on morphophonology in the second edition of my > book Lectura del N?huatl. I promise to cite your post. (The first edition > has a few citations of Nahuat-l posts too). Listeros: what do you think? > > Saludos, > > David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 21 18:21:24 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:21:24 -0500 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: sources; Cuauhtinchan In-Reply-To: <51501.79.7.185.22.1250878290.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Thanks, Gordon, I'm working on this right now and your input is most useful. -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Gordon Whittaker Enviado el: viernes, 21 de agosto de 2009 01:12 p.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: sources; Cuauhtinchan Dear David, Oops! You caught me with my pants down! I'm travelling in Italy right now, so my access to sources is rather limited for the next couple of weeks. I think Xihuiltemoc is in Ixtlilxochitl, not that that helps much, given the garbled form of the surviving manuscripts. But I'm pretty sure it occurs in bona fide Nahuatl texts of the 16th century. Since the name is a prominent elite name, it is found in a variety of sources. There are actually a number of additional examples of becoming in the literature, always spanning word boundaries, so it is indeed, as you say, a sandhi phenomenon. Perhaps someone hovering in cyberspace can help us out here with further examples. The place names Alpoyeccan and Almoloyan seem to be construed as A:tl Poyecca:n 'Where is Water Is Salty' and A:tl Molo:yya:n 'Where the Water Swirls'. These contrast with the more common construction noun + i:-possessive+verbstem+locative (e.g. Atlicalaquiyan, which is properly speaking two words). As you rightly point out, Coatlichan is a juxtaposition of two words, not a compound. Cuauhtinchan is a another nice example of partial assimilation of freestanding words -- standing for Cua:uh-tin I:n-ch:an 'Home of the Eagles'. Best, Gordon _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From nekopixan at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:38:48 2009 From: nekopixan at gmail.com (Mizton Pixan) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:38:48 -0500 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: <8dee73060908211022h34a04d27y3fc7b7f6e3bd9eba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No, there is no difference. Actually Craig, the /z/ sound doesn't exist in Nahuatl On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Craig Berry wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:11, Mizton Pixan wrote: > > The "Z" in "Tezcatlipoca" should be pronounced /s/. > > Is there any pronunciation difference between that 'z' and the 's' in > "mescal"? > > -- > Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > "Lots of things in the universe don’t solve any problems, and > nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll > -- Si la vida te da la espalda... agárrale las nalgas. If life turns its back on you... grab its butt. Si la vie te tourne le dos... saisis lui les fesses. Wenn das Leben dir den Rücken zukehrt... ergreif seinen Po. Se la vita ti volta le spalle... afferragli il sedere. 人生に背を向けられれば... 尻を握ってやれ。 Intla in nemiliztli mitzneci icuetlapan... xquitzqui itzin :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 21 19:37:22 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:37:22 -0500 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: sources; Cuauhtinchan Message-ID: The garbled transmission happens when I copy and paste text into an e-mail message. Here it goes again in Western Europe Windows codeset. *************************************************** Muy estimados listeros: I wrote up the /tl/ > /l/ sandhi bit for the second edition of Lectura del Náhuatl, based on Gordon's contributions, substituting one of his examples for another (Alpopoca) for which I was able to find documentation. I'm reproducing it below (with colons instead of macrons and removing the cursives I use for the traditional "Franciscan" spellings). Please let me know if you have any suggestions. Saludos, David P.S. The little vertical lines are a personal convention to mark the Andrews/Karttunen/Bierhorst spelling system, which I like to call in Spanish "tradicional fonémico". **************************************************** Hay algunos casos en los cuales se unen dos sustantivos y el primero, de manera excepcional, conserva el sufijo absolutivo tl |tl| (pues lo usual es que éste se elimina para formar un sustantivo compuesto); cuando el segundo sustantivo empieza con fonemas como |t|, |p| o |m|, el fonema |tl| del primer elemento se convierte en |l|: • |tl| + |t| > |lt|; • |tl| + |p| > |lp|; • |tl| + |m| > |lm|. Un ejemplo de lo anterior que aparece a menudo en los textos novohispanos es la palabra altepetl, “señorío/pueblo”; también sucede con algunos antropónimos (en los ejemplos segundo y tercero) y topónimos (en el cuarto ejemplo). • altepetl |a:ltepe:tl| (|a:tl| + |tepe:tl| (|tl| + |t| > |lt|)); • Xihuiltemoc |xi:huilte:mo:c| (|xi:huitl| + |te:mo:| + |c| (|tl| + |t| > |lt|)); • Alpopoca |a:lpopo:ca| (|a:tl| + |popo:ca| (|tl| + |p| > |lp|)); • Almoloyan |a:lmolo:ya:n| (|a:tl| + (|molo:ni| – |i|) (|n| + |y| > |y|) + |y?n| (|tl| + |m| > |lm)).* **************************************************** * Gordon Whittaker, comunicaciones a la lista de correo electrónico Nahuat-l, 21 de agosto de 2009; véanse: Archives of Nahuat-l, sin fecha; Nahuatl, sin fecha. Es posible que el segundo ejemplo se haya escrito con |i|, duración corta, dependiendo del significado del nombre; véase Karttunen, 1992: 324. Opté por |xi:huilte:mo:c| porque así el nombre significaría “descendió el cometa”, que parece ser más probable que |xihuilte:mo:c|, “descendió el año/grama/piedra verde”, aunque no puedo eliminar estas últimas posibilidades como hipótesis alternativas. Altepetl es registrado por Molina (1998c: II, 4r) y aparece en un sinnúmero de fuentes novohispanos. El antropónimo Xihuiltemoc (escrito también como Xihuitltemoc) aparece en los escritos del cronista texcocano Alva Ixtlilxóchitl (1977: I, 412; II, 144). Sobre Alpopoca (también escrito Apopoca y Atl Popoca) y Almoyolan, véase Bierhorst, 1985: 36, 45, 217). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sat Aug 22 07:29:52 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 09:29:52 +0200 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: more combinations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David, Here are some more combinations you could add: /tl/ + /ch/ > /lch/ e.g. a:lchichi:c 'bitter water' /tl/ + /s/ > /ls/ e.g. a:lcece:c 'cold water' If I recall correctly, at least one of these is in Sahagun. This suggests there was a general rule that in lexicalized phrases /tl/ + /C/ (for any consonant) across a word boundary could become /lC/. Whether this included glides remains to be seen. By the way, there's a minor typo (a case of methatesis) in the last line of your text as given below: Almoyolan for Almoloyan. Where is your book 'Lecturas del Nahuatl' going to be published? And what does it contain? Sounds like very interesting reading. Best wishes, Gordon > Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:26:59 -0500 > From: "David Wright" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: sources; Cuauhtinchan > Muy estimados listeros: > > I wrote up the /tl/ > /l/ sandhi bit for the second edition of Lectura del > N?huatl, based on Gordon's contributions, substituting one of his examples > for another (Alpopoca) for which I was able to find documentation. I'm > reproducing it below (with colons instead of macrons and removing the > cursives I use for the traditional "Franciscan" spellings). Please let me > know if you have any suggestions. > > Saludos, > > David > > P.S. The little vertical lines are a personal convention to mark the > Andrews/Karttunen/Bierhorst spelling system, which I like to call in > Spanish "tradicional fon?mico". > > **************************************************** > Hay algunos casos en los cuales se unen dos sustantivos y el primero, de > manera excepcional, conserva el sufijo absolutivo tl |tl| (pues lo usual > es que ?ste se elimina para formar un sustantivo compuesto); cuando el > segundo sustantivo empieza con fonemas como |t|, |p| o |m|, el fonema |tl| > del primer elemento se convierte en |l|: > > ? |tl| + |t| > |lt|; > ? |tl| + |p| > |lp|; > ? |tl| + |m| > |lm|. > > Un ejemplo de lo anterior que aparece a menudo en los textos novohispanos > es la palabra altepetl, ?se?or?o/pueblo?; tambi?n sucede con algunos > antrop?nimos (en los ejemplos segundo y tercero) y top?nimos (en el cuarto > ejemplo). > > ? altepetl |a:ltepe:tl| (|a:tl| + |tepe:tl| (|tl| + |t| > |lt|)); > ? Xihuiltemoc |xi:huilte:mo:c| (|xi:huitl| + |te:mo:| + |c| (|tl| + |t| > > |lt|)); > ? Alpopoca |a:lpopo:ca| (|a:tl| + |popo:ca| (|tl| + |p| > |lp|)); > ? Almoloyan |a:lmolo:ya:n| (|a:tl| + (|molo:ni| ? |i|) (|n| + |y| > |y|) + > |y?n| (|tl| + |m| > |lm)).* > > **************************************************** > * Gordon Whittaker, comunicaciones a la lista de correo electr?nico > Nahuat-l, 21 de agosto de 2009; v?anse: Archives of Nahuat-l, sin fecha; > Nahuatl, sin fecha. Es posible que el segundo ejemplo se haya escrito con > |i|, duraci?n corta, dependiendo del significado del nombre; v?ase > Karttunen, 1992: 324. Opt? por |xi:huilte:mo:c| porque as? el nombre > significar?a ?descendi? el cometa?, que parece ser m?s probable que > |xihuilte:mo:c|, ?descendi? el a?o/grama/piedra verde?, aunque no puedo > eliminar estas ?ltimas posibilidades como hip?tesis alternativas. Altepetl > es registrado por Molina (1998c: II, 4r) y aparece en un sinn?mero de > fuentes novohispanos. El antrop?nimo Xihuiltemoc (escrito tambi?n como > Xihuitltemoc) aparece en los escritos del cronista texcocano Alva > Ixtlilx?chitl (1977: I, 412; II, 144). Sobre Alpopoca (tambi?n escrito > Apopoca y Atl Popoca) y Almoyolan, v?ase Bierhorst, 1985: 36, 45, 217). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 22 16:52:15 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:52:15 -0400 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: more combinations In-Reply-To: <49232.82.50.117.212.1250926192.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Quoting Gordon Whittaker : > By the way, there's a minor typo (a case of methatesis) in the last line > of your text > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > Metathesis upon metathesis, the gateway to understanding! :-) Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 22 17:59:06 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:59:06 -0500 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: more combinations Message-ID: Thanks, Gordon. I'll look for these and try to integrate them into the text. Once I deal with this and any other feedback that may come up on this list, I'll post the new version for a final review. At any rate, I see that I'll have to expand the list of consonants that affect /tl/ to any consonant. "Lexicalized phrase" is a good, concise way of referring to these kinds of pieces of the verbal stream, which seem to be right on the somewhat blurry border between what we call "words" and "phrases". The first edition of Lectura del Nahuatl was published in late 2007 by the Instituto Nacional de Lenguas Indígenas in Mexico City. It is distributed free but of course the folks at the INALI want to make sure that it gets into the hands of people that would really use it, so they ask for a letter, preferably on institutional letterhead, requesting a copy or copies and specifying what one wants them for. Going to the INALI offices in Mexico City is the best way to obtain the book. I understand that the federal budget crisis has severely affected the INALI in recent months, so it might be difficult for them to mail copies. But I can't speak for them. Contact information can be found on their website (http://www.inali.gob.mx/). There's also a brief description of this book and many others in the *Publicaciones* section of the same site. I'll copy and paste the contents of the book below. Oh, I should mention that there are a lot of typos and such, so anyone wanting to use the book as a tool for translating of teaching should write to me and get the latest version of the Fe de Erratas. The forthcoming (I hope) second edition has been corrected and expanded and still needs some work before I send it to potential publishers. My plan is to find a commercial publisher with a good distribution network, including on-line sales. Saludos, David Here's the title and table of contents: Lectura del náhuatl: fundamentos para la traducción de los textos en náhuatl del periodo Novohispano Temprano Contenido 1. Consideraciones preliminares 11 1.1. Características del presente libro 11 1.2. El náhuatl 13 1.2.1. Relaciones genéticas 14 1.2.2. Lenguas y dialectos 17 1.2.3. Migraciones nahuas 21 2. Fuentes descriptivas 25 2.1. Diccionarios 25 2.1.1. El vocabulario de Molina (1571) 26 2.1.2. El diccionario de Siméon (1885) 30 2.1.3. El diccionario de Karttunen (1983) 32 2.1.4. El diccionario de Wolf (2003) 33 2.1.5. Otras fuentes léxicas 34 2.2. Gramáticas 37 2.2.1. Obras novohispanas 38 2.2.2. Siglo xix 41 2.2.3. Siglos xx y xxi 42 3. Fonología 46 3.1. Ortografía 46 3.2. Vocales 57 3.3. Semiconsonantes 58 3.4. Consonantes 59 3.5. Sílabas 62 3.6. El acento 63 3.7. Reglas sobre los cambios fonológicos 64 3.7.1. Consonantes largas 64 3.7.2. Asimilación 65 3.7.3. Disimilación 71 3.7.4. Otros cambios consonánticos 72 3.7.5. Elisión vocálica 73 3.7.6. Acortamiento de vocales largas 74 4. Morfología nominal 76 4.1. Los sustantivos: inflexiones básicas 76 4.1.1. Formas absolutivas 76 4.1.2. El plural 78 4.1.3. Forma poseída 79 4.1.4. Poseedores 81 4.2. Pronombres 82 4.2.1. Independientes 82 4.2.2. Indefinidos 84 4.2.3. Interrogativos 84 4.3. Posposiciones y sufijos locativos 85 4.4. Adjetivos 98 4.4.1. Los verbos denominativos con -tic y -huic 99 4.4.2. Los sustantivos compuestos 100 4.4.3. Pseudosufijos de actitud 100 4.5. Números 106 4.5.1. Números cardinales 106 4.5.2. Clasificadores numéricos 112 4.6. Sustantivos derivados 114 4.6.1. Abstractos 114 4.6.2. Concretos 114 4.6.3. Deverbales 115 4.6.4. Compuestos 122 5. Morfología verbal 124 5.1. Los verbos: inflexiones básicas 124 5.1.1. Prefijos de sujeto 124 5.1.2. Sufijos plurales 126 5.1.3. Prefijos de objeto 126 5.1.4. Prefijos de reflexividad 129 5.1.5. Afijos de tiempo 132 5.2. Las clases de verbos y la formación del pretérito 135 5.2.1. Primera clase 135 5.2.2. Segunda clase 136 5.2.3. Tercera clase 137 5.2.4. Cuarta clase 138 5.3. Verbos irregulares 139 5.4. Voces pasiva e impersonal 147 5.5. Tres modos verbales 150 5.5.1. Condicional 150 5.5.2. Optativo 150 5.5.3. Propositivo 152 5.6. Prefijos direccionales 154 5.7. Verbos derivados 155 5.7.1. Causativos 155 5.7.2. Aplicativos 157 5.7.3. Honoríficos 159 5.7.4. Denominativos 160 5.7.5. Compuestos 167 6. Partículas 171 6.1. La partícula in 171 6.2. La partícula ca 172 6.3. Partículas negativas 173 6.4. Partículas demostrativas 175 6.5. Adverbios 177 6.5.1. Locativos 177 6.5.2. Temporales 181 7. Sintaxis 189 7.1. Palabras-oración y oraciones sin verbo 189 7.2. El orden de las palabras 191 7.3. Las partículas como indicadores de cláusulas 193 8. La traducción 195 9. Metáforas 198 9.1. Las fuentes 198 9.2. Ejemplos del Códice florentino 201 9.2.1. Teoatl tlachinolli 202 9.2.2. Iiyo itlatol 205 9.2.3. Cuauhyotica oceloyotica 207 9.2.4. Intlil intlapal inhuehuetque 211 9.2.5. Imamox intlacuilol 214 10. Glosas del Mapa de Huamantla y el Códice de Huichapan 216 10.1. Mapa de Huamantla 216 10.2. Códice de Huichapan 225 Referencias 233 Glosario 258 Índice de afijos 268 A. Prefijos 269 B. Sufijos, pseudosufijos y posposiciones 270 C. Ligaduras 273 -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Gordon Whittaker Enviado el: sábado, 22 de agosto de 2009 02:30 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: more combinations Dear David, Here are some more combinations you could add: /tl/ + /ch/ > /lch/ e.g. a:lchichi:c 'bitter water' /tl/ + /s/ > /ls/ e.g. a:lcece:c 'cold water' If I recall correctly, at least one of these is in Sahagun. This suggests there was a general rule that in lexicalized phrases /tl/ + /C/ (for any consonant) across a word boundary could become /lC/. Whether this included glides remains to be seen. By the way, there's a minor typo (a case of methatesis) in the last line of your text as given below: Almoyolan for Almoloyan. Where is your book 'Lecturas del Nahuatl' going to be published? And what does it contain? Sounds like very interesting reading. Best wishes, Gordon _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 22 20:24:20 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:24:20 -0500 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: more combinations Message-ID: Listeros: I couldn't find Gordon's latest examples of /tl/ + /C/ > /lC/ in colonial Nahuatl sources, but I spotted a couple others with different consonants in the Cantares Mexicanos and the Codex Mendoza. The /atl/ > /al/ change doesn't seem to be very frequent, as a quick check of several indexes to early colonial Nahuatl documents revealed. Here's the final text for the morphophonological rule we're working on, unless anybody has further suggestions: ***************************************** Hay casos en los cuales se unen dos sustantivos y el primero, de manera excepcional, conserva el sufijo absolutivo -tl |tl| (pues lo usual es que éste se elimina para formar un sustantivo compuesto). Esto sucede de manera especial con las frases lexicalizadas (es decir, convertidas en palabras). En estos casos, cuando el segundo sustantivo empieza con una consonante, el fonema |tl| del primer elemento se puede convertir, de manera opcional, en |l|: · |tl| + |t| > |lt|; · |tl| + |p| > |lp|; · |tl| + |m| > |lm|; · |tl| + |ch| > |lch|; · |tl| + |hu| > |lhu|.* Un ejemplo de lo anterior, que aparece a menudo en los textos novohispanos, es la palabra altepetl, “pueblo/señorío” (literalmente “el agua, el cerro”). También encontramos esta clase de asimilación regresiva parcial en algunos antropónimos (en los ejemplos segundo y tercero) y topónimos (en los ejemplos cuarto y quinto): · altepetl |a:ltepe:tl| (|a:tl| + |tepe:tl| (|tl| + |t| > |lt|)); · Xihuiltemoc |xi:huilte:mo:c| (|xi:huitl| + |te:mo:| (|tl| + |t| > |lt|) + |c|); · Alpopoca |a:lpopo:ca| (|a:tl| + |popo:ca| (|tl| + |p| > |lp|)); · Almoloyan |a:lmolo:ya:n| (|a:tl| + (|molo:ni| – |i|) (|tl| + |m| > |lm) + |ya:n| (|n| + |y| > |y|)); · Alchayahuacan |a:lchaya:huaca:n| (|a:tl| + |chaya:hua| (|tl| + |ch| > |lch|) + |ca:n|); · Alhuexoyocan |a:lhuexo:yohca:n| (|a:tl| + (|huexo:tl| – |tl|) (|tl| + |hu| > |lhu|) + |yoh| + |ca:n|).** * Apunto aquí los casos que he visto hasta ahora; es probable que estos cambios sucedan también con otras consonantes que se encuentren al inicio del segundo elemento de la frase lexicalizada. ** Agradezco a Gordon Whittaker por sus sugerencias acerca de esta clase de cambios morfofonémicos y por haber aportado varios de los ejemplos que aparecen aquí (véanse: Gordon Whittaker, comunicaciones a la lista de correo electrónico Nahuat-l, 21 de agosto de 2009, disponibles en Archives of Nahuat-l, sin fecha; Nahuatl, sin fecha. Es posible que el segundo ejemplo haya tenido una |i| corta en su primera sílaba, dependiendo del significado del nombre (véase Karttunen, 1992: 324). Opté por |xi:huilte:mo:c| porque así el nombre significaría “descendió el cometa”, que parece ser más probable que |xihuilte:mo:c|, “descendió el año/grama/piedra verde”, aunque no puedo eliminar estas últimas posibilidades. Altepetl es registrado por Molina (1998c: II, 4r) y aparece en un sinnúmero de fuentes novohispanas; en los Cantares mexicanos encontramos también el difrasismo “ynatl intepetly” (in atl in tepetl, con el sonido [i] al final, sin valor semántico, a manera de adorno poético; véanse Bierhorst, 1985: 45, 46, 427, 429; Cantares mexicanos, 1994: 12r). El antropónimo Xihuiltemoc (escrito también Xihuitltemoc), aparece en los textos del cronista texcocano Alva Ixtlilxóchitl (1975, 1977: I, 412; II, 144). Sobre Alpopoca (escrito también Apopoca y Atl Popoca), Almoloyan y Alchayahuacan, véanse Bierhorst, 1985: 36, 45, 217; Cantares mexicanos, 1994: 9r; 33v, 54v, 79v, 84r). Alhuexoyocan aparece en el Códice mendocino (Berdan/Anawalt [editoras], 1992: 26r). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From chema at netehuile.org Sat Aug 22 19:34:52 2009 From: chema at netehuile.org (Chema Tlaquetzqui) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:34:52 +0200 Subject: Mes, veintena and trecena Message-ID: I don't know if I understood the question, but I worked programming a few Mesoamerican (Long count mostly) calendars a few months ago as part of another project and I started to use the word "score" (as in a group of 20, like "Four score and seven years ago...") for the 20- day month. When I started looking at the literature, I realized the Spanish translation (veintena) was also used. My theory is that back in the day people used the terms score/veintena as often as they do now in French. Trecena (and docena and quincena) is just an extension of that. Why use it for 18, I don't know. Maybe the inconvenience of using "deciochona" and being close to 20? Score certainly is a practical word to use in English. Chema On Aug 21, 2009, at 19:32 , Gordon Whittaker wrote: > Dear Paul, > > We do actually have a Classical Nahuatl term for 'month'. It's the > same as > the one for 'moon': me:tztli. As for the origin of veintena, good > question! I, too, would like to know who first used trecena and > veintena > in a Mesoamerican sense. > > Best, > Gordon > > >> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:22:23 -0400 >> From: "macehual08 at gmail.com" >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] veintena >> >> Hello,Could anyone tell me who coined the term "veintena" to >> describe the >> 18 >> "months" of the xihuitl "calendar"? Or anything about how or when >> it came >> into scholarly use? >> >> Alternatively, do you know who among the earliest chroniclers used >> the >> term? >> (Sahag?n, for example, seems mostly to use the term "mes.") >> >> Or, does anyone know the Nahua equivalent? (I've read in several >> places >> that >> the term is unknown.) >> >> Thanks. >> Paul > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gordon Whittaker > Professor > Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Aug 23 01:16:02 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:16:02 -0500 Subject: Mes, veintena and trecena Message-ID: "VEYNTE. Nombre numeral, latine viginti. El veynte en el juego de los bolos es el que está fuera de los nueve del juego. Veyntena, vale lo mesmo que veynte, o veyntena parte, una de las veynte". - Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebastián, Tesoro de la lengua castellana o española, Madrid/México, Ediciones Turner/Ediciones Turnermex, 1984, p. 996 (f. 66r y v de la ed. de 1611). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Thu Aug 27 21:40:15 2009 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:40:15 +0200 Subject: FW: Nahuatl, trecena and veintena Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Baert Georges [mailto:lahunik.62 at skynet.be] Namens Georges R. Baert (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Verzonden: donderdag 27 augustus 2009 23:31 Aan: 'macehual08 at gmail.com' Onderwerp: Nahuatl, trecena and veintena Dear Sir: The month of 20 days is in Nahuatl: Meztli. Trecena and veintena, derived from the Spanish trece and viente, are rather modern terms used by Mesoamericanists. No friar of the Post-Conquest period used this terms. The Nahuatl word for trecena was no longer known, neither for the term veintena. No record of the veintena survives in a Central Mexican manuscript made before the Conquest, because it did not play the same role in divination, that the trecena, as part of the tonalpohualli did. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sat Aug 29 07:47:27 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:47:27 +0200 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Georges Baert, Your Nahuatl "meztli" is close, but not quite right. It's actually a common error in popular literature based on Spanish mes. The real Nahuatl word is metztli, with a long /e/ vowel. It would, of course, be great if someone could inform us as to when the Spanish terms veintena and trecena are used for the first time in the precise Mesoamerican nominal context we are used to. I think we all know the basic meanings of the terms, just not yet their first occurrences as terms for Mesoamerican units of time. I would suspect Motolinia (if not Molina), but have no access to the literature from my isolated beach in Italy, so who knows. Perhaps the terms are modern, perhaps not. Best, Gordon Whittaker Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:40:15 +0200 From: Subject: Nahuatl, trecena and veintena Dear Sir: The month of 20 days is in Nahuatl: Meztli. Trecena and veintena, derived from the Spanish trece and viente, are rather modern terms used by Mesoamericanists. No friar of the Post-Conquest period used this terms. The Nahuatl word for trecena was no longer known, neither for the term veintena. No record of the veintena survives in a Central Mexican manuscript made before the Conquest, because it did not play the same role in divination, that the trecena, as part of the tonalpohualli did. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Sat Aug 29 13:02:25 2009 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:02:25 -0400 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month In-Reply-To: <1762.88.46.193.74.1251532047.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Searching on the wonderful reference source "Biblioteca Virtual Miguel de Cervantes" (http://www.cervantesvirtual.com) for "trecena" ("veintena" is too common a word to search...), the earliest occurence of the word in the Nahuatl context is from: León y Gama, Antonio de (1735-1802), "Descripción histórica y cronológica de las dos Piedras que con ocasión del nuevo empedrado que se está formando en la Plaza principal de México, se hallaron en ella el año de 1790" (México, En la Imprenta de Don Felipe de Zúñiga y Ontiveros, 1792) Best, David Frye ________________________________________ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Gordon Whittaker [gwhitta at gwdg.de] Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:47 AM To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month Dear Georges Baert, Your Nahuatl "meztli" is close, but not quite right. It's actually a common error in popular literature based on Spanish mes. The real Nahuatl word is metztli, with a long /e/ vowel. It would, of course, be great if someone could inform us as to when the Spanish terms veintena and trecena are used for the first time in the precise Mesoamerican nominal context we are used to. I think we all know the basic meanings of the terms, just not yet their first occurrences as terms for Mesoamerican units of time. I would suspect Motolinia (if not Molina), but have no access to the literature from my isolated beach in Italy, so who knows. Perhaps the terms are modern, perhaps not. Best, Gordon Whittaker Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:40:15 +0200 From: Subject: Nahuatl, trecena and veintena Dear Sir: The month of 20 days is in Nahuatl: Meztli. Trecena and veintena, derived from the Spanish trece and viente, are rather modern terms used by Mesoamericanists. No friar of the Post-Conquest period used this terms. The Nahuatl word for trecena was no longer known, neither for the term veintena. No record of the veintena survives in a Central Mexican manuscript made before the Conquest, because it did not play the same role in divination, that the trecena, as part of the tonalpohualli did. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Aug 30 00:34:03 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 19:34:03 -0500 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month Message-ID: OK, you guys made me curious, so I put down the student papers I was reading and spent a couple of hours looking at sources on the central Mexican calendar. A quick check of major sources, in search of the words used to express the idea of the 18 twenty-day periods of the 365-day calendar, gave these results: 16th century - Toribio de Benavente (Motolina): "mes." - Jerónimo de Mendieta: "mes." - Bernardino de Sahagún (*Florentine Codex*): "metztli" (Nahuatl column), "mes" (Castilian column). - Bartolomé de las Casas: "mes." - Diego Durán: "mes." - Juan de Tovar: "mes." - Francisco Cervantes de Salazar: "mes." - Alonso de Zorita: "mes." - Cristóbal del Castillo (text in Nahuatl): "metztli;" we also find the words "metztlapohualli" and "cecempohualilhuitl" (he calls the thirteen-day cycles "semanas," using the Castilian term as a loanword within his Nahuatl text). 17th century - Juan de Torquemada: "mes." 18th century - José Joaquín Granados y Gálvez: "mes", "mextli." - Lorenzo Boturini: "mes." - Mariano Fernández de Echeverría y Veytia: "mes." - Francisco Antonio Lorenzana: "mes." - Antonio de León y Gama: "mes." 19th century - José Fernando Ramírez: "mes." - Alfredo Chavero (vol. 1 of *México a través de los siglos*, 1884): "veintena" ("A esta veintena de días generalmente los autores la llaman mes, por no encontrar otro nombre que darle. Le dicen también *metztli*, que quiere decir luna, pero bien claro indica Molina que *metztli* fue aplicado nada más al mes europeo"). - Eduard Georg Seler (English translations published in 1904 and 1990): "chronological unit, 20 days," "eighteen twenties falsely called 'months' by the Spanish," "festival," "month." 20th century - Alfonso Caso: "mes," "veintena." - Rafael Tena: "mes," "veintena." So the first use I found of "veintena" for the central Mexican calendrical period is Chavero's, published in 1884. Interestingly, it appears together with a (rather weak) critique of the use of the term "metztli." My searches weren't exhaustive, so it's possible that authors prior to Chavero could have used "veintena" in exceptional cases (in previous post I showed that the Castilian term has been in use since at least 1611), but in their main descriptions of the calendar the word "mes" is what I found. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Aug 31 00:28:13 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:28:13 -0400 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month In-Reply-To: <000001ca2909$93896520$ba9c2f60$@net.mx> Message-ID: The time frame is accurate, I'd say. I did a quick search in JSTOR. The first citation for veintena comes in 1908 when it is cited in a review of Robelo, Diccionario de mejicanismos. The first use of trecena in scholarly articles occurred in 1900 in a piece by Bowditch in the American Anthropologist, on "The Lords of the Night." -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Aug 31 05:04:00 2009 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 01:04:00 -0400 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month In-Reply-To: <8a7aa86ca421ee19bc6ab9ed8dce9687.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: In the Florentine Codex, Book Four: CAPITULO PRIMERO Del primero signo llamado ce cipactli y de la buena fortuna que tenian los que en el nacian ansi hombres como mugeres si no la perdian por su negligencia o floxura Aqui comien%an los caracteres de cada dia que contavan por trezenas Eran treze dias en cda semana y hazian un circulo de dozientos y sesenta dias y despues tornavan al principio ***% for c cedilla Joe p.s. plis forgive the typos... Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > > The time frame is accurate, I'd say. I did a quick search in JSTOR. The > first citation for veintena comes in 1908 when it is cited in a review of > Robelo, Diccionario de mejicanismos. > > The first use of trecena in scholarly articles occurred in 1900 in a piece > by Bowditch in the American Anthropologist, on "The Lords of the Night." > > > > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President, > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mcdo0030 at umn.edu Mon Aug 31 14:07:34 2009 From: mcdo0030 at umn.edu (Kelly McDonough) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:07:34 -0500 Subject: origins of man in the Huasteca Message-ID: Piyali listeros, I have uploaded images of codexes painted and written by Idelfonso Maya Hernández (Nahua) to http://kellysmcdonough.blogspot.com/ that treat the ideas of “Origins of Man in the Huasteca.” Maya Hernández (presently residing in Huejutla de Reyes) is know primarily for his plays, community theater direction, and murals, along with his pioneering efforts in the decolonization of the bilingual school teacher movement in Mexico. Saludos, Kelly Kelly McDonough University of Minnesota - Twin Cities Department of Spanish & Portuguese Studies 612/624-5529 mcdo0030 at umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Mon Aug 31 15:21:35 2009 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 08:21:35 -0700 Subject: origins of man in the Huasteca In-Reply-To: <31C52C0A30734E488416DE3E66085DB9@KELLY> Message-ID: Dear Kelly, These are incredibly beautiful!!!!! I congratulate you on bringing these artworks to the Nahuatl community. Mario I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD www.mexicayotl.net Kelly McDonough wrote: > > Piyali listeros, > > I have uploaded images of codexes painted and written by Idelfonso > Maya Hernández (Nahua) to > > http://kellysmcdonough.blogspot.com/ that treat the ideas of "Origins > of Man in the Huasteca." Maya Hernández (presently residing in > Huejutla de Reyes) is know primarily for his plays, community theater > direction, and murals, along with his pioneering efforts in the > decolonization of the bilingual school teacher movement in Mexico. > > Saludos, > > Kelly > > > > > > Kelly McDonough > > University of Minnesota - Twin Cities > > Department of Spanish & Portuguese Studies > > 612/624-5529 > > mcdo0030 at umn.edu > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Mon Aug 31 15:48:01 2009 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 08:48:01 -0700 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Message-ID: Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 31 16:35:37 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:35:37 -0500 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month Message-ID: Joe's example of "trecena" in the *Florentine Codex* sent me back to the books to see the general picture regarding names for the 13-day period. Here are the results, using the same sources mentioned in my previous post on the 20-day period. In each case I just checked the main descriptions of the central Mexican calendar, so the searches were not exhaustive. 16th century - Toribio de Benavente (Motolina): "semana," "semanas de a trece días." - Jerónimo de Mendieta: "trece signos." - Bernardino de Sahagún (*Florentine Codex*): "matlatlaquilhuitl omeey motlalitiuh" (Nahuatl column), "trezena," "Algunos dizen que estos treze dias son semanas del mes y no es ansi sino numero de dias en que reina el signo o caracter" (Castilian column). (Book 4, chapter 1 and appendix.) - Bartolomé de las Casas: "la semana de trece días." - Diego Durán: "la semana de éstos era de trece días." - Juan de Tovar: (he only deals with the 365-day year). - Francisco Cervantes de Salazar: (he didn't understand the structure of the tonalpohualli, failing to grasp the basic concept of 13 x 20 days). - Alonso de Zorita: "la semana era de trece días." - Cristóbal del Castillo (text in Nahuatl): "iz cempohualli semana matlactli omey tonatiuh iz cencensemana." 17th century - Juan de Torquemada: "trece días;" "algunos quisieron decir que estos trece días eran semanas de estos indios, pero no es así, sino el número de días en que reinaba el signo o carácter que estaba al principio." 18th century - José Joaquín Granados y Gálvez: "13 dias", "13 casas." - Lorenzo Boturini: "triadecaterida." - Mariano Fernández de Echeverría y Veytia: "los Indios no tenian semanas, pero tenian un periodo equibalente a ellas en el uso del Kalendario: Este hera de trece dias [...];" "su semana." - Francisco Antonio Lorenzana: "triadecaterida." - Antonio de León y Gama: "dividian los 260 dias en 20 trecenas, que eran á modo de nuestras semanas." 19th century - José Fernando Ramírez: "trecenas." - Alfredo Chavero (vol. 1 of *México a través de los siglos*, 1884): "trecenas." - Eduard Georg Seler (English translations published in 1990): "twenty sections of thirteen days each." 20th century - Alfonso Caso: "trecena." - Rafael Tena: "trecena." So Sahagún used "trecena" in this sense, as Joe showed us, although it wasn't in general used until 1792, in León y Gama's book *Descripción histórica y cronológica de las dos piedras...*, becoming the usual term in 19th and 20th century texts, at least as far as the sources mentioned here will take us. Most colonial period sources use the Castilian word "semana," although some authors objected, notably Sahagún, which explains why he preferred the more precise term "trecena". Torquemada's objection is evidently inspired by Sahagún's. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ritamontano2002 at yahoo.com.mx Mon Aug 31 18:10:34 2009 From: ritamontano2002 at yahoo.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_Monta=FFfffff1o?=) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:10:34 -0700 Subject: trecenas, veintenas Message-ID: Estimados listeros: Acerca de la interesante discusión sobre la medición del tiempo entre los nahuatl, me parece que el libro de Michel Graulich "Ritos aztecas: las fiestas de las veintenas" es un documento muy interesante que aclara bien la forma de medir el tiempo y los ritos asociados a cada festividad. Angeles Sánchez N. Encuentra las mejores recetas en Yahoo! Cocina. http://mx.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Mon Aug 31 18:39:39 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:39:39 +0200 Subject: Some grammar doubts Message-ID: Well, thank you everybody for your enlightening explanations/comments. Things are now clearer in my mind. Susana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McCafferty" To: Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:51 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Some grammar doubts > Quoting David Wright : > > > >> >> E-mail works faster then my mind. > > > > David, I can relate! My email seems to have a mind of its own, and > *then* my mind generally kicks in after I've pressed "Send message". > > Michael > > > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cindy at grito-poetry.com Sat Aug 1 03:52:07 2009 From: cindy at grito-poetry.com (Cindy) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:52:07 -0700 Subject: "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought Nahuatl meant ?clear speech??according to Leon-Portilla, I think. No? -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of macehual08 at gmail.com Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 2:13 PM To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? I just came across a definition in "Oxford Music Online" (in an article on Mexican music by E. Thomas Stanford and Arturo Chamorro) that defines Nahuatl as "sonorous, audible, council; law" AND "to dance embraced at the neck." Is anyone familiar with the second definition? Nahuatl as a "dance embraced at the neck"? I don't see this definition in Molina, Sim?on, Karttunen and wonder if anyone knows where this association might come from? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Sat Aug 1 17:04:16 2009 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 10:04:16 -0700 Subject: "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Na:huatl (long a) means "pleasant sounding, clear, understandable"..... I have never seen the neck thing...... I believe nahnahua means to embrace in general...... mario I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD www.mexicayotl.net macehual08 at gmail.com wrote: > I just came across a definition in "Oxford Music Online" (in an > article on Mexican music by E. Thomas Stanford and Arturo Chamorro) > that defines Nahuatl as "sonorous, audible, council; law" AND "to > dance embraced at the neck." > > Is anyone familiar with the second definition? Nahuatl as a "dance > embraced at the neck"? I don't see this definition in Molina, Sim?on, > Karttunen and wonder if anyone knows where this association might come > from? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 20:23:58 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 15:23:58 -0500 Subject: nahuatl hk < kk Message-ID: listeros kk > hk is indeed a very common sound change in modern Nahuatl - it is also found throughout Morelos and in southern Puebla. I do not think however tht it is best understood as a dissimilation. I think it is a part of a much more pervasive tendency in Nahuatl to turn all consonant clusters into aspiration + consonant. For many dialects most consonant clusters, including those with sonorants are pronounced /hC/. So that e.g. kalli is pronounced [kahli], teopixki [teopihki], itta [ihta]. In my opinion this in turn is a part of the nahuatl rule of devoicing and aspirating syllable final consonants. The way I see there is a general "drift" in Nahuatl making all syllable final consonants tend towards becoming h. Magnus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Aug 1 02:04:20 2009 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:04:20 -0500 Subject: Nahua, nahnahua Message-ID: Estimado Macehual08, In Huastecan Nahuatl, "nahua" is a class 4 verb that means "to carry s.t. in your arms" (vs "mama", "to carry s.t. on your back"). The reduplicated form, "nahnahua", means "to hug s.o." This is pretty close to your example. John Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Aug 1 02:12:42 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:12:42 -0500 Subject: quechnahua Message-ID: Listeros and macehual08, I should have mentioned that the verb "nahua" has two long "a"s, and that "quechnahua", means "to hug s.o. around the neck, or to walk with s.o. with you arm over their shoulder". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Sat Aug 1 05:31:21 2009 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 01:31:21 -0400 Subject: "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? In-Reply-To: <000901ca125b$70bf4e70$6501a8c0@HPPavilion> Message-ID: Niquitta ahmo innahuati. I think that the authors are not familiar with Nahuatl language and placed too much trust in their references. It is telling that they gave English verbs and adjectives as possible translations of a noun. Also in the previous paragraph they mention "...the two pitch levels of the Nahuatl language..." which is confusing, since one normally speaks of pitch levels in the context of languages with lexical tone. They may be referring to stressed vs. unstressed syllables or heavy vs. light syllables, but it is not clear. The curious sense might come from a confusion with some word derived from *nahuac, "*with, close to*". *Words derived from nahuac (e.g. nahuahtequi) can have the final consonant reduced to a glottal stop or lost altogether. The error could probably be traced to one of the authors' references. Regards, On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:52 PM, Cindy wrote: > I thought Nahuatl meant ?clear speech??according to Leon-Portilla, I > think. No? > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto: > nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] *On Behalf Of *macehual08 at gmail.com > *Sent:* Friday, July 31, 2009 2:13 PM > *To:* Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > *Subject:* [Nahuat-l] "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? > > > > I just came across a definition in "Oxford Music Online" (in an article on > Mexican music by E. Thomas Stanford and Arturo Chamorro) that defines > Nahuatl as "sonorous, audible, council; law" AND "to dance embraced at the > neck." > > > > Is anyone familiar with the second definition? Nahuatl as a "dance embraced > at the neck"? I don't see this definition in Molina, Sim?on, Karttunen and > wonder if anyone knows where this association might come from? > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Sat Aug 1 21:11:58 2009 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 17:11:58 -0400 Subject: nahuatl hk < kk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Other examples: Oapan l > h / ___ C as in kwa:hpale:wi:seh they will come to help him San Francisco Ozomatlan has h for s in forms such as kochihneki. Many, many variants have final /n/ and /w/ become h nokone:h my child o:toma:h s/he got fat si:talih star etc. Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > listeros > > kk > hk is indeed a very common sound change in modern Nahuatl - it is also > found throughout Morelos and in southern Puebla. I do not think however tht > it is best understood as a dissimilation. I think it is a part of a much > more pervasive tendency in Nahuatl to turn all consonant clusters into > aspiration + consonant. For many dialects most consonant clusters, including > those with sonorants are pronounced /hC/. So that e.g. kalli is pronounced > [kahli], teopixki [teopihki], itta [ihta]. In my opinion this in turn is a > part of the nahuatl rule of devoicing and aspirating syllable final > consonants. The way I see there is a general "drift" in Nahuatl making all > syllable final consonants tend towards becoming h. > > Magnus > -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 1 21:34:52 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 16:34:52 -0500 Subject: Tone in Nahuatl Message-ID: This is definitely off on a tangent so I'll use another subject title. (Sloppy titling scrambles the threads in the archives.) In reply to Jesse, who wrote: "Niquitta ahmo innahuati. I think that the authors are not familiar with Nahuatl language and placed too much trust in their references. It is telling that they gave English verbs and adjectives as possible translations of a noun. Also in the previous paragraph they mention '...the two pitch levels of the Nahuatl language...' which is confusing, since one normally speaks of pitch levels in the context of languages with lexical tone. They may be referring to stressed vs. unstressed syllables or heavy vs. light syllables, but it is not clear." I was just reading about tone and Nahuatl in a couple of articles. The first is one I cited two days ago when discussing the kk > hk change: Guion, Susan G.; Amith, Jonathan D.; Doty, Christopher; Shport, Irina A., ?Word-level prosody in Balsas Nahuatl: the origin, development, and acoustic correlates of tone in a stress accent language?, n.d., in Publications, Susan Guion Anderson (http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~guion/Guion_Publications.htm; access: Jul. 29 2009). The other article is a manuscript by Whorf, unpublished in his lifetime and rescued, with comments and annotations, by Lyle Campbell and Frances Karttunen: Whorf, Benjamin Lee (Lyle Campbell y Frances Karttunen, editores), ?Pitch tone and the ?Saltillo? in modern and ancient Nahuatl,? en International Journal of American Linguistics (The University of Chicago Press), vol. 59, no. 2, April 1993, pp. 165-223. The first paper deals with the Balsas River varieties, as the title indicates, where tone has acquired an exceptional role compared with other varieties; the second uses examples collected in Milpa Alta (D.F.) and Tepoztl?n (Morelos) in 1930. I found these articles especially interesting because I had been puzzled by Rinc?n's and Carochi's discussion of tone related to vowel length (Antonio del Rinc?n, Arte mexicana, 1595, book 5, chapter 1; Horacio Carochi, Arte de la lengua mexicana, 1645, book 1, chapter 1, section 2). These passages from Rinc?n and Carochi are commented by Campbell and Karttunen in the article by Whorf. Saludos, David _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Aug 2 03:51:26 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 22:51:26 -0500 Subject: Me:xxihco Message-ID: Listeros: In search of additional examples of Me:xxihco (or possible variants Me:xihco, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xi:cco, which could also hypothetically derive from the same combination of morphemes me:tzli, xi:ctli, and -co), I came across a reference in Bierhorst (1985: 211) to the form Me:xihco in "Huehuetlatolli document A" (Mexican MS 458, Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley). If any of you have a copy of this at hand, could you please check 11:6 (I guess that means folio 11, line 6) and tell me what you see there? Or at least the transcription from Karttunen's and Lockhart's The Art of Nahuatl Speech (which I don't have at hand). This is important, since this Bancroft manuscript is one of those rare colonial documents that marks long vowels and saltillos, coming from Carochi's circle at Tepotzotl?n, if I remember correctly. While I had Bierhorst down from the shelf, I looked up xi:ctli and found that he writes it xictli, with a short /i/ (he's usually pretty careful about vowel length). In Karttunen's dictionary, which is usually where we (me and the mouse in my pocket) usually look first for information on vowel length and saltillos, we find xi:ctli. Wolf (2003) has xi:ctli too. I got out some dictionaries of modern Nahuatl that mark vowel length and looked for this word or cognates. I found it with /i/ in Santa Catarina, Morelos (Guzm?n, 1979), with /i/ in Texcoco, Mexico (Lastra, 1980), and with /i:/ in Pajapan, Veracruz (Kojis, 2007). In Lastra's massive compilation of field data (1986), there are forms with /i/ and /i:/, more of the former than the latter, with both forms present in some regions. Bierhorst also refers to a curious quote from 16th century Dominican friar Dur?n (1967: II, chapter 44, paragraph 3), which may (or may not) be relevant to the etymology of Mexico. He records a tradition in which Nezahuapilli, lord of Texcoco, says to Ahuitzotl, lord of Mexico: "Por tanto, pues eres, aunque de poca edad, rey de tan poderoso reino, el cual es la ra?z, el ombligo y coraz?n de toda esta m?quina mundial [...]." Saludos, David Referencias Bierhorst, John, A Nahuatl-English dictionary and concordance to the Cantares mexicanos, with an analytical transcription and grammatical notes, Stanford, Stanford University Press, 1985. Dur?n, Diego, Historia de las Indias de Nueva Espa?a e islas de tierra firme, 2 vols., ?ngel Mar?a Garibay Kintana, editor, Mexico City, Editorial Porr?a, 1967. Guzm?n Betancourt, Ignacio, Gram?tica del n?huatl de Santa Catarina, Morelos, Mexico City, Departamento de Ling??stica, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 1979. Karttunen, Frances, An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, 2nd. ed., Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 1992. Koji, Ando, Gram?tica n?huatl de Pajapan, Xalapa, Universidad Veracruzana, 2007. Lastra, Yolanda, Las ?reas dialectales del n?huatl moderno, Mexico City, Instituto de Investigaciones Antropol?gicas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1986. Lastra, Yolanda, El n?huatl de Tetzcoco en la actualidad, Mexico City, Instituto de Investigaciones Antropol?gicas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1980. Wolf, Paul P. de, Diccionario espa?ol-n?huatl, Mexico City/La Paz, Instituto de Investigaciones Hist?ricas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico/Fideicomiso Teixidor/Universidad Aut?noma de Baja California Sur, 2003. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ced22 at leicester.ac.uk Fri Aug 7 11:02:24 2009 From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk (Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E.) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 12:02:24 +0100 Subject: Yaocihuatl Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am currently writing an article on the 'Women of Discord' in Aztec history and would be grateful for your help in interpreting the name of the goddess 'Yaocihuatl'. It is most often translated as 'War/Warrior Woman', but Susan Gillespie, in 'The Aztec Kings' translates the term as 'War Woman' on p.59 and as 'Woman of Discord' on p.213. The former translation seems the most obvious, although there are obviously linguistic roots with the term 'tlatolyaotl' (translated as 'discord' in the Florentine Codex). I'd be very grateful for any thoughts colleagues can offer on the translation or interpretation of this name. Many thanks, Caroline ------- Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock Lecturer in Early Modern History School of Historical Studies University of Leicester University Road Leicester LE1 7RH email: ced22 at le.ac.uk http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Fri Aug 7 15:25:06 2009 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 11:25:06 -0400 Subject: Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My dictionary (Wimmer) cites the following passage and translation (Anderson's?) from the Florentine codex, " in ihcu?c nemiya tl?lticpac, y??y?tl quiyoliti?ya, yehhu?tl quiy?l?ti?ya in teuhtli, in tlazolli, cococ, teopouhqui t?pan quich?huaya, t?tzalan t?nepantla, moquetzaya: ?pampa in, mot?n?hua necoc y??tl " when he walked upon the earth he quickened war; he quickened vice, filth; he brought anguish, affliction to men; he brought discord among men, wherefore he was called 'the enemy on both sides'. Sah1,69. yaoyotl, with the abstract noun suffix -yotl, is translated as war. yaotl itself is translated as enemy. On that, Kartunen's dictionary notes: "In compounds Ya:o: also means 'war, battle,' but as a free form 'war' is ya:o:yo:-tl, contrasting with ya:o:tl, 'enemy.' " My dictionary has the following entry for yaotl: "1. ennemi; combat, guerre. / ennemi; combat, guerre. / titre divin, s'adresse plus particuli?rement ? Tezcatlipoca. Cf. aussi Y??tzin. / semble ?galement avoir le sens de meu[r]trier." In the case of yaocihuatl, we have a compounded noun whose root is cihuatl. The prefixed noun in a compound noun or verb can modify its root in unfamiliar and abstract ways, as in pitzotlahtoa: = PIG-SPEAK, 'to speak in a crude manner' teo:cuitlatl = GOD-EXCREMENT, 'precious metal' yaochichihua = WAR-CARE, 'dress for battle' tlatolyaotl is a compound noun with yaotl as its root, modified by tlatol(li), 'speech,' so it could also be translated less succinctly as 'cold war.' The translator in the case of yaocihuatl should have plenty enough latitude to use both renderings. Yours, On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 7:02 AM, Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E. < ced22 at leicester.ac.uk> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I am currently writing an article on the 'Women of Discord' in Aztec > history and would be grateful for your help in interpreting the name of the > goddess 'Yaocihuatl'. It is most often translated as 'War/Warrior Woman', > but Susan Gillespie, in 'The Aztec Kings' translates the term as 'War Woman' > on p.59 and as 'Woman of Discord' on p.213. The former translation seems the > most obvious, although there are obviously linguistic roots with the term > 'tlatolyaotl' (translated as 'discord' in the Florentine Codex). I'd be very > grateful for any thoughts colleagues can offer on the translation or > interpretation of this name. > > Many thanks, > Caroline > ------- > Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock > Lecturer in Early Modern History > School of Historical Studies > University of Leicester > University Road > Leicester > LE1 7RH > > email: ced22 at le.ac.uk > http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 16:43:34 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 12:43:34 -0400 Subject: Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: <4fb311a10908070825j4d7bdf91t372f40fc1aa709ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Quoting Jesse Lovegren : >> On that, Kartunen's dictionary notes: "In compounds Ya:o: also means 'war, > battle,' but as a free form 'war' is ya:o:yo:-tl, contrasting with ya:o:tl, > 'enemy.' 'war-woman' does in fact make sense in this grammatical context. I wonder about how one distinguishes an 'enemy-woman' from a 'war-woman'. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Aug 7 19:23:19 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 15:23:19 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: <002101ca1782$b9bc8e90$2d35abb0$@com> Message-ID: Let's be a bit more careful. We have the implied comparison (corollary) of two very different words: chi:hua - a verb stem meaning to make something (long -i-) cihua:tl - a noun stem meaning woman (long -a-) -Please note the difference in vowel length They are very different words, they just happen to have some of the same letters. But to use an English example, "parts" and "traps" are not at all the same word. yaocihuatl is very different from yaochihua Lynda Manning-Schwartz wrote: > According to J. Richard Andrews' book, Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, > the following translations may apply (colon indicates long vowel): > > (stuff deleted) > YA:O:-TL is "enemy" often embedded, as for example, TE:-(YA:O:-CHI:HUA > > YA:O:-CHI:UH) "to wage (human) war", where > CHI:HUA > CHI:UH with prefix TE:- is "to beget someone or to engender > someone" or with prefix TLA- is "to make something" and with both prefixes > TE:-TLA-CHI:HU-IA is "to do something to someone, to bewitch someone" > CIHUA:-TL is "woman"; as a modifier, it comes before the noun modified; for > example, > CIHUA:-MAZA:-TL is "female deer, doe" > > So YA:O:-CIHUA:-TL would imply a direct translation of "War Woman" with > perhaps the implied CHI:HUA:-TL corollary "person who makes (human) war or > causes war". In a goddess, this trait might very well be related to an > implied ability to create discord in humans. > > -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 19:30:38 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 15:30:38 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: <4A7C7F27.2050308@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Where did that come from? Is there posting on aztlan that is not being posted on nahuat-l? Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > Let's be a bit more careful. We have the implied comparison (corollary) > of two very different words: > chi:hua - a verb stem meaning to make something (long -i-) > cihua:tl - a noun stem meaning woman (long -a-) > -Please note the difference in vowel length > > They are very different words, they just happen to have some of the same > letters. But to use an English example, "parts" and "traps" are not at > all the same word. > > yaocihuatl is very different from yaochihua > > > > Lynda Manning-Schwartz wrote: >> According to J. Richard Andrews' book, Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, >> the following translations may apply (colon indicates long vowel): >> >> (stuff deleted) >> YA:O:-TL is "enemy" often embedded, as for example, TE:-(YA:O:-CHI:HUA > >> YA:O:-CHI:UH) "to wage (human) war", where >> CHI:HUA > CHI:UH with prefix TE:- is "to beget someone or to engender >> someone" or with prefix TLA- is "to make something" and with both prefixes >> TE:-TLA-CHI:HU-IA is "to do something to someone, to bewitch someone" >> CIHUA:-TL is "woman"; as a modifier, it comes before the noun modified; for >> example, >> CIHUA:-MAZA:-TL is "female deer, doe" >> >> So YA:O:-CIHUA:-TL would imply a direct translation of "War Woman" with >> perhaps the implied CHI:HUA:-TL corollary "person who makes (human) war or >> causes war". In a goddess, this trait might very well be related to an >> implied ability to create discord in humans. >> >> > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Aug 7 19:34:25 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 15:34:25 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl] Message-ID: A message cross-posted from AZTLAN -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Lynda Manning-Schwartz" Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl Date: 7 Aug 2009 12:15:55 -0500 Size: 6125 URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 20:58:04 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 16:58:04 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl] In-Reply-To: <4A7C81C1.903@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Tlaxtlahui, Dr. Schwaller, for posting this on Nahuat-L. Unfortunately, I can't belong to Aztlan because of the volume that travels through there. :) Michael Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > A message cross-posted from AZTLAN > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 21:05:10 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 17:05:10 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl] In-Reply-To: <4A7C81C1.903@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Date: 7 Aug 2009 12:15:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl From: "Lynda Manning-Schwartz" To: "'Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E.'" , aztlan at lists.famsi.org 2.1 unnamed [text/plain] 3.02 KB According to J. Richard Andrews' book, Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, the following translations may apply (colon indicates long vowel): Note also that TO:L-IN is "reed, rush, bulrush" as in TO:L-T-E:-CA-TL "an inhabitant of Tollan" or a "Toltec" If TLA-TO:L-YA:O:-TL is really the construction of this word, then "discord" is possibly glossed as "thing (property?) of a Toltec foe (warrior)" Adding to a previous posting, Linda: The -TO:L- of TLA-TO:L-YA:O:-TL is from /(i)hto:lli/ 'spoken word', and is not that same as that of TO:L-T-E:-CA-TL. Best regards, Michael McCafferty _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 7 21:12:16 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 23:12:16 +0200 Subject: Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl Message-ID: Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has -- or can point me in the direction of -- good-quality photos of the panels encircling the so-called Stones of Tizoc (Tizocic) and Motecuhzoma I (or Axayacatl)? I am doing a comparative study of Aztec monuments and would dearly love to be able to examine both of these temalacatl a little more closely than I have been able up to now. I would be very grateful if someone can provide me with close-up photos of all sections of these monuments. I would, of course, not publish any without permission (and acknowledgement). Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 7 21:29:17 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 16:29:17 -0500 Subject: Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl In-Reply-To: <49945.84.132.220.142.1249679536.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Howdy, Gordon: The best photos I've seen are here: MATOS Moctezuma, Eduardo; Felipe SOL?S. El Calendario azteca y otros monumentos solares (1a. ed.) Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia/Grupo Azabache. M?xico, 2004. They have a good enough resolution to study the toponymical signs, among other details, in both cases. For closeups of a few signs taken from different angles that will help solve some doubts, see: GUTI?RREZ Solana Rickards, Nelly. Objetos ceremoniales en piedra de la cultura mexica (1a. ed.) Instituto de Investigaciones Est?ticas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico. M?xico, 1983. Saludos, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Gordon Whittaker Enviado el: viernes, 07 de agosto de 2009 04:12 p.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has -- or can point me in the direction of -- good-quality photos of the panels encircling the so-called Stones of Tizoc (Tizocic) and Motecuhzoma I (or Axayacatl)? I am doing a comparative study of Aztec monuments and would dearly love to be able to examine both of these temalacatl a little more closely than I have been able up to now. I would be very grateful if someone can provide me with close-up photos of all sections of these monuments. I would, of course, not publish any without permission (and acknowledgement). Best wishes, Gordon _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 21:43:29 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 17:43:29 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl] In-Reply-To: <20090807170510.fkp4im4yogckg00g@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Sorry. Writing too quickly, thinking too slowly. Should have said tlahtolli not ihtolli. Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Date: 7 Aug 2009 12:15:55 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl > From: "Lynda Manning-Schwartz" > To: "'Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E.'" , > aztlan at lists.famsi.org > 2.1 unnamed [text/plain] 3.02 KB > > > > According to J. Richard Andrews' book, Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, > the following translations may apply (colon indicates long vowel): > > Note also that > TO:L-IN is "reed, rush, bulrush" as in TO:L-T-E:-CA-TL "an inhabitant of > Tollan" or a "Toltec" > If TLA-TO:L-YA:O:-TL is really the construction of this word, then "discord" > is possibly glossed as "thing (property?) of a Toltec foe (warrior)" > > > > > Adding to a previous posting, Linda: > > > The -TO:L- of TLA-TO:L-YA:O:-TL is from /(i)hto:lli/ 'spoken word', and > is not that same as that of TO:L-T-E:-CA-TL. > > > Best regards, > > Michael McCafferty > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Fri Aug 7 22:36:54 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 22:36:54 +0000 Subject: Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl In-Reply-To: <001f01ca17a6$1edd4cb0$5c97e610$@net.mx> Message-ID: Dear Gordon, There more good photos in "Azteca - Mexica. Las culturas del M?xico antiguo", Jos? Alcina Franch, Miguel Le?n-Portilla & Eduardo Matos Moctezuma (eds.), INAH/Quinto Centenario/ Lunwerg Editores, Barcelona, 1992, fold-out page between pp. 208-209. This is a catalogue of an exhibit with the same name in Madrid, 1992. I can scan it for you if you can't get hold of the catalogue. best, Michel > From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx > To: gwhitta at gwdg.de; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 16:29:17 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl > > Howdy, Gordon: > > The best photos I've seen are here: > > MATOS Moctezuma, Eduardo; Felipe SOL?S. El Calendario azteca y otros > monumentos solares (1a. ed.) Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e > Historia/Grupo Azabache. M?xico, 2004. > > They have a good enough resolution to study the toponymical signs, among > other details, in both cases. For closeups of a few signs taken from > different angles that will help solve some doubts, see: > > GUTI?RREZ Solana Rickards, Nelly. Objetos ceremoniales en piedra de la > cultura mexica (1a. ed.) Instituto de Investigaciones Est?ticas, Universidad > Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico. M?xico, 1983. > > Saludos, > > David > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de Gordon Whittaker > Enviado el: viernes, 07 de agosto de 2009 04:12 p.m. > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl > > Hi everyone, > > I was wondering if anyone has -- or can point me in the direction of -- > good-quality photos of the panels encircling the so-called Stones of Tizoc > (Tizocic) and Motecuhzoma I (or Axayacatl)? I am doing a comparative study > of Aztec monuments and would dearly love to be able to examine both of > these temalacatl a little more closely than I have been able up to now. > > I would be very grateful if someone can provide me with close-up photos of > all sections of these monuments. I would, of course, not publish any > without permission (and acknowledgement). > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _________________________________________________________________ What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Aug 7 22:41:38 2009 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 18:41:38 -0400 Subject: Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Caroline, I'll enclose a list of occurrences of "ya:o:tl" below. I think that it will obvious that the basic meaning of the morpheme is 'war', not 'enemy', but in some word formation contexts, it is reasonable to translate it as 'enemy'. On the confusion with "-chi:hua", there are two instances in the Florentine Codex in which "-cihua:..." is spelled with a "ch", possibly leading to some confusion, but Dibble and Anderson point this out in footnotes. All examples are from the three Molina dictionaries and the Florentine Codex. I use "=" in the Molina citations to mark the beginning of the portion which really precedes the indexed item (i.e., cecehuia =yaotica nitla should be read as: yaotica nitla-cecehuia) The Florentine reference numbers give book, my file number, and page number in the Dibble and Anderson English edition. Unfortunately, the Molina reference numbers are not very helpful in locating citations, since they label which Molina dictionary and my file number, but no folio reference: M5 = 1555 M1 = 1571 (S/N) M2 = 1571 (N/S) All the best, Joe *ya:o:tl *** cecehuia =yaotica nitla. pacificar la tierra por guerra. . 55m-15| cecehuia =yaotica nitla=yaotica onitetlacecehuili [scribal error: ??the present and the preterit don't match: 71m2]. pacificar y allanar la tierra con guerra. . 71m2-5| cecehuilli =yaoyotica tla. pacificada tierra. . 55m-15| cenyeliz =yaoquizque in. real, de gentes armadas; de gente de guerra. . 55m-17| chichicuahyaotlaya , mo-. they engaged in mock fighting with bags. . b.2 f.10 p.157| chihua =yaoyotl nic. guerra hazer. . 55m-10| cuachpanitquic =yaoc. alferez. . 71m1-2| cuepa =yaoc nino. retraer#se en la batalla o retirar#se; retraer enla batalla o retirarse. . 55m-17| iloti =yaoc n. retraer#se en la batalla o retirar#se; retraer enla batalla o retirarse. . 55m-17| iloti =yaoc n=yaoc onilot. retirarse enla guerra. . 71m2-5| oyayaopehua. . . b.2 f.1 p.50| palehuia =yaoc nite. ayudar con gente armada. . 55m-00| palehuiani =yaoc te. ayudador assi (assi is ayudar con gente armada). . 71m1-1| palehuiliztli =yaoc te. ayuda assi {printing error: nssi for assi}; ayuda tal (tal is ayudar con gente armada). . 55m-00| quimmoyaomamachtia =quinomoyaomamachti. nueuo enlas armas, o el que se ensaya de nueuo para pelear. ch>. 71m2-15| quitiyayaotla. they keep skirmishing against her. . b.2 f.7 p.119| tequiliz =yaoquizque intla. real, de gente de guerra. i +poss.phr>. 71m1-18| tlahtolyaotl. discord. . b.6 f.4 p.49| tlatequiliz =yaoquizque in. real, de gentes armadas; real de gente de guerra. i +poss.phr>. 55m-17| tlaxtlahuilo =yaotica ni. sueldo ganar assi (assi is sueldo en la guerra). . 55m- 18| tlazolyaotl. contention. . b.6 f.4 p.49| tzinquiza =yaoc ni. retraer#se en la batalla o retirar#se; retraer enla batalla o retirarse. . 55m- 17| tzinquiza =yaoc ni=yaoc onitzinquiz. retirarse enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoacalli. galera; galera {??printing error: gylera for galera}. . 71m1-12| yaoacalli ?stillan. fusta genero de naue; fusta. genero de naue. . 55m-10| yaoana =nite=oniteyaoan. captiuar en^guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoc. in enemy land; in war; in battle; war; battle; battlefield; region of battle. . b.2 f.7 p.122| yaocalaquia , hual-. they entered during war. . b.2 f.11 p.180| yaocalatlauhtli. caua de fortaleza. . 71m1- 5| yaocalcencahua =ni. guarnecer fortaleza. . 55m-10| yaocalcencahua =ni=oniyaocalcencauh. proueerla fortaleza delo necessario. . 71m2-5| yaocalchicahua =ni. guarnecer fortaleza. . 55m-10| yaocalchicahua =ni=oniyaocalchicauh. fortalecer y reparar fortaleza. . 71m2-5| yaocallahpaltilia =ni. guarnecer fortaleza. ll>. 55m-10| yaocallahpaltilia =ni=oniyaocallahpaltili. fortalecer y reparar fortaleza. ll>. 71m2- 5| yaocallapializtli. alcaidia de fortaleza; tenencia de fortaleza. ll>. 71m2-5| yaocallapixcayotl. alcaidia de fortaleza; tenencia de fortaleza. ll>. 71m2-5| yaocallapixqui. alcayde de fortaleza; alcaide de fortaleza; teniente de fortaleza. ll +y>x>. 55m- 00| yaocalli. fortaleza edificio; fortaleza; el edificio; fusta artillada; o cosa assi para pelear en la mar; guarida para defenderse. . 55m-10| yaocalli =huehcapan. torre para defender. . 55m-19| yaocalpializnehtolli. omenaje que haze el alcalde dela fortaleza; omenaje que heze el alcayde dela fortaleza {+heze-sp??}; omenaje que haze el alcaide dela fortaleza. . 55m-15| yaocaltlalatlauhtli. caua de fortaleza. . 71m1-5| yaocaltzonyotl. omenaje de torre; omenaje de torre de fortaleza. . 55m-15| yaocehuilia , qui-. he quiets the issue. . b.2 f.5 p.103| yaocehuiliztli =ne. treguas paz acierto dia; treguas paz hasta acierto tiempo. . 55m-19| yaochichihua , mo-. they arm themselves for war; them arm themselves for war; they array themselves for war. . b.3 f.1 p.2| yaochichihua =ni. guarnecer gente; para la guerra. . 55m-10| yaochichihua =nino. apercebirse o a parejarse pa la batalla; armarse para la guerra; apercebirse o aparejarse para la guerra; armarse para la^batalla. . 55m-1| yaochichihua =nino=oninoyaochichiuh. armarse para la^guerra. . 71m2-5| yaochichihua =nite. armar desta manera a otro (desta manera is armadura tal, o el acto de armarse (para la batalla)). . 71m1-2| yaochichihua =nite=oniteyaochichiuh. armar a otro desta manera (desta manera is armarse para la guerra). . 71m2-5| yaochichihua =tepoztlahuiztica nino. armarse de hierro. . 55m-1| yaochichihua =tepoztlahuiztica nite. armar a otro assi (assi is armarse de hierro). . 55m-1| yaochichihua =tepoztlahuiztica nino. armarse de hierro. . 71m1-2| yaochichihua =tepoztlahuiztica nite. armar a otro asi. . 71m1-2| yaochichihualiztli =ne. armadura assi (assi is armado). . 55m-1| yaochichihualiztli =tepoztlahuiztica ne. armadura tal (tal is armarse de hierro). . 55m-1| yaochichihualiztli =ne. armadura tal, o el acto de armarse (tal is armarse para la batalla). . 71m1-2| yaochichihualiztli =te. armadura tal (tal is armarse para la^batalla). . 71m1-2| yaochichihualiztli =tepoztlahuiztica ne. armadura tal (tal is armado armarse de hierro). . 71m1-2| yaochichihualiztli =ne. apercebimiento para pelear armandose. . 71m2-11| yaochichihuani =te. armador tal (tal is armarse para la^batalla). . 71m1-2| yaochichiuh , mo-. preparation for war was made. . b.8 f.1 p.10| yaochichiuhqueh , mo-. they each armed themselves for war; they arrayed themselves for battle. . b.3 f.1 p.3| yaochichiuhqueh , omo-. they girt themselves for battle; they were arrayed for battle. . b.9 f.5 p.64| yaochichiuhqui =mo. armado; armado assi (assi is armarse para la batalla); armado para batallar. . 55m-1| yaochichiuhqui =tepoztlahuiztica mo. armado assi (assi is armarse de hierro). . 55m-1| yaochichiuhtia , hualmo-. he went preparing himself for war. . b.8 f.2 p.22| yaochichiuhtiahqueh , mo-. they went arrayed for war. . b.12 f.2 p.29| yaochichiuhtiahqueh , hualmo-. they went preparing themselves for war. . b.12 f.4 p.59| yaochichiuhtihui , hualmo-. they go arraying for war. . b.9 f.2 p.18| yaochichiuhtihuia , mo-. . . b.9 f.2 p.17| yaochichiuhtihuitze , mo-. ; they come prepared for war; they come arrayed for war; they come in battle array. . b.8 f.1 p.18| yaochichiuhtli =tla. armado assi (assi is armarse para la^batalla). . 71m1-2| yaochihua , mo-. battle is waged. . b.2 f.12 p.190| yaochihua =nite. batallar pelear; batallar; combatir o pelear; guerra hazer; hazer guerra a otros; lidiar en esta manera (en esta manera is lid en trance de armas); lidiar enesta manera (enesta manera is lid en trance de armas); pelear. . 55m-2| yaochihua =nite=oniteyaochiuh. guerrear a otro. . 71m2-5| yaochihua =tehuicpa nite=tehuicpa oniteyaochiuh. hazer guerra alos enemigos de mis amigos. . 71m2-5| yaochihualiztli =ne. enemistad; lid en trance de armas; pelea. . 55m-7| yaochihualiztli =te. combate assi (assi is combatir o pelear); combate assi (assi is combatida cosa); guerra que se haze alos enemigos. . 55m-3| yaochihualoqueh. they were warred against. . b.9 f.1 p.3| yaochihuani =te. batallador que haze guerra alos contrarios; combatidor; contrario assi (assi is contrariar a alguno); contrario desta manera (desta manera is contrariar o contradezir a alguno); guerreador. . 71m2-16| yaochihuatzin. war woman. . b.2 f.14 p.236| yaochihuaya , mo-. battle was waged. . b.2 f.13 p.204| yaochihuaya , qui-. they made war for her. . b.1 f.1 p.15| yaochihuaya , quimon-. they made war on them. . b.9 f.1 p.3| yaochihuaya , quin-. they fought against them. . b.9 f.5 p.64| yaochihuaz , quin-. he will make war against them. . b.12 f.3 p.35| yaochiuh , qui-. he made war on it; he made war on him. . b.8 f.1 p.1| yaochiuhqueh , mo-. they made war on each other. . b.8 f.1 p.2| yaochiuhqueh , oquin-. they waged war against them. . b.8 f.2 p.21| yaochiuhqueh , quin-. they made war on them. . b.8 f.2 p.22| yaochiuhqui =te. batallador que haze guerra alos contrarios. . 71m2-16| yaochiuhtihui , quin-. they go fighting them. . b.2 f.1 p.50| yaochiuhtli =tla. combatido assi (assi is combatir o pelear); combatida cosa; guerreada cosa o combatida. . 55m-3| yaochuia , mo-. they make war on each other. . b.6 f.13 p.161| yaocihuatzin. war woman. . b.2 f.14 p.236| yaoctepalehuiani. ayudador tal (tal is ayuda assi). . 55m-00| yaocuecuentililiztli =ne. haz,^batalla ordenada.. . 71m1-12| yaocuecuentiliztli =ne. haz batalla ordenada; esquadron ordenado de batalla. . 55m- 10| yaocuentlaliliztli =ne. ordenanza de soldados; ordenanza o haz de soldados. . 71m1-16| yaocuitoh , con-. they went to gather it like enemies. . b.12 f.4 p.66| yaohtla. . . b.2 f.14 p.223| yaohuan , amo-. your [pl.] foes, your [pl.] enemies; your foes. . b.12 f.4 p.66| yaohuan , i-. his enemies; his adversaries; his foes. . b.2 f.1 p.55| yaohuan , in-. their adversaries, their enemies, their foes. . b.3 f.1 p.7| yaohuan , mo-. your enemies. . b.6 f.10 p.125| yaohuan , te-. foes. . b.2 f.7 p.122| yaohuan , to-. our foes, our adversaries, our enemies. . b.1 f.4 p.64| yaohui. . . b.6 f.13 p.161| yaoihmati =nino=oninoyaoihmat. ser diestro y entendido enlas cosas dela guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoihtacatl. victuallas, o mantenimiento para la guerra; vituallas para hueste. . 71m2-5| yaoihtacatl. provision for war, battle rations; war provision. . b.8 f.3 p.51| yaollatalhuia =nite. maherir para la guerra,apercebir o se?alar. ll>. 71m1-14| yaomachiyonecaquiliztli. se?as para se entender enla guerra. . 55m-18| yaomachiyonehcaliliztli. se?as conque se entienden enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaomachtia =mo. esgremir el esgremidor; esgremidor. ch>. 55m-9| yaomachtia =nino=oninoyaomachtih. esgremir, o ensayarse para la guerra. ch>. 71m2-5| yaomachtia moyeyecoa in quenin tehuitequiz =mo. esgremir el esgremidor. ch>. 71m1-11| yaomachtiani =mo. esgremidor que esgrime; esgremidor. ch>. 55m-9| yaomahmahui. he is afraid of war. . b.10 f.2 p.24| yaomamachtia , mo-. he takes up arms. ch>. b.8 f.5 p.72| yaomamachtia =nino=oninoyaomamachtih. esgremir, o ensayarse para la guerra. ch>. 71m2-5| yaomamachtia =quimmo. ombre nueuo enlas armas. ch>. 55m-15| yaomamachtiani =mo. esgremidor o nueuo enla guerra; nueuo en la guerra. ch>. 71m2-10| yaomamachtiaya , mo-. they skirmished. ch>. b.1 f.2 p.39| yaomamachtihqui =mo. nueuo en la guerra; esgremidor o nueuo enla guerra. ch>. 55m-14| yaomana =nite=oniteyaoman. ordenar guerra contra algunos. . 71m2-5| yaomeh. foes, enemies. . b.12 f.7 p.109| yaomic , o-. he died in battle. . b.4 f.7 p.67| yaomic. he died in battle. . b.12 f.5 p.68| yaomicqueh , o-. they died in battle. . b.2 f.8 p.136| yaomicqueh. they died in war, ones who died in war; war dead. . b.6 f.1 p.13| yaomicqui. one who died in war. . b.6 f.1 p.12| yaomiqui. he dies in war; he dies in battle; they die in war; they die in battle. . b.2 f.1 p.49| yaomiquia. they died in war. . b.4 f.1 p.5| yaomiquico. he came to die in war. . b.6 f.10 p.114| yaomiquili , mo-. he [H.] died in war. . b.6 f.10 p.115| yaomiquitoh , o-. they went to die in war. . b.8 f.3 p.53| yaomiquiz. he will die in war; he will die in battle; they will die in war. . b.4 f.1 p.6| yaomiquizqueh. they will die in war. . b.10 f.11 p.177| yaonamiquitoh , quin-. they went to meet them in battle. . b.8 f.2 p.21| yaonechichiuhtli. armas para la guerra; armas para pelear. . 71m1-2| yaonechichiutli [scribal error: ??printing error: yaonechichiutli for yaonechichiuhtli: 55m]. armas para la guerra. . 55m-1| yaonemachtli. ardid de guerra. ch>. 55m-1| yaonepantlah. in the midst of the foe; in the midst of enemy land; in the middle of the battleground. . b.9 f.2 p.18| yaonotza =nite. llamar para la guerra. . 55m- 12| yaonotza =nite=oniteyaonotz. llamar para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaonotzaliztli =te. apellido de guerra, o el acto de tocar alarma; llamamiento tal (tal is llamar para la guerra). . 71m2-16| yaonotzani =te. el que apellida para la guerra, o el que toca alarma. . 71m2-16| yaoohtli. enemy path. . b.8 f.4 p.57| yaopalehuia =nite. guarnecer gente; para la guerra. . 55m-10| yaopalehuia =nite=oniteyaopalehui. guarnecer gente para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaopan , to-. on our foes, on our adversaries, on our enemies. . b.12 f.8 p.118| yaopan. at the battlefield; in a warlike place; in battle; in time of battle; in war; land of the foe; land of the enemy; to war. . b.4 f.1 p.3| yaopehuacoh. they came to begin war. . b.12 f.6 p.84| yaoquixoalotiuh. people go to set forth to war. x>. b.8 f.4 p.65| yaoquixoaya. there was setting out to battle. . b.4 f.7 p.70| yaoquixoaz. war will break out. x>. b.9 f.2 p.24| yaoquiza , on-. they set forth to battle. . b.8 f.4 p.65| yaoquiza , o[n]-. they set forth to war. . b.8 f.4 p.65| yaoquizaliztli. act of waging war, going forth to battle. . b.8 f.3 p.54| yaoquizatiuh. he goes forth to war; he goes forth to battle. . b.8 f.3 p.52| yaoquizatoh , o[n]-. they went forth to war. . b.8 f.4 p.65| yaoquizatoh. they went forth to battle. . b.8 f.1 p.4| yaoquizaya. they waged war. . b.8 f.3 p.51| yaoquizaz. he will come forth in war. . b.6 f.14 p.171| yaoquizazqueh. they will go to war. . b.10 f.11 p.177| yaoquizcapatiotl. sueldo, o paga de soldados. . 71m2-5| yaoquizcapatiyotl. sueldo en la guerra; sueldo enla guerra. . 55m-18| yaoquizcateca =nino. assentar real. . 55m-1| yaoquizcateca =nino=oninoyaoquizcatecac. asentar real. . 71m2-5| yaoquizcateca =tito. assentar real. . 71m1-3| yaoquizcatecaliztli =ne. assiento de real; assentado real; o assiento de real. . 55m-1| yaoquizcatepachoa =ni. capitanear. . 55m-3| yaoquizcatepachoa =ni=oniyaoquizcatepacho. capitanear enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoquizcatepachocayotl. capitania assi (assi is capitan); capitania tal (tal is capitan); officio de capitanear enla guerra. . 55m-2| yaoquizcatepachoh. capitan; caudillo; capitan de soldados. . 55m-2| yaoquizcatequiliztli =ne. assiento de real enla guerra. i>. 71m2-11| yaoquizcatlalia =nino. real asentar; real assentar. . 55m-17| yaoquizcatlaxtlahuilli. sueldo en la guerra. . 55m-18| yaoquizcatlaxtlahuilo =ni. sueldo ganar assi (assi is sueldo en la guerra). . 55m-18| yaoquizcatlaxtlahuilli. sueldo enla guerra; sueldo; o^paga de soldados. . 71m1-19| yaoquizcatzacua =nino. assentar real. . 55m-1| yaoquizcatzacua =nino=oninoyaoquizcatzacu. asentar real. . 71m2-5| yaoquizcatzacua =tito. assentar real. . 71m1-3| yaoquizcatzacualiztli =ne. assiento de real; assentado real; o assiento de real. . 55m-1| yaoquizcatzacuiliztli =ne. assiento de real enla guerra. i>. 71m2-11| yaoquizcayacana =ni. capitanear. . 55m-3| yaoquizcayacana =ni=oniyaoquizcayacan. capitanear enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoquizcayacancacayotl. capitania assi (assi is capitan). . 55m-2| yaoquizcayacancayotl. capitania tal (tal is capitan); officio de capitanear enla guerra. . 71m1-4| yaoquizcayacanqui. capitan; caudillo; capitan de soldados. . 55m-2| yaoquizque. batalla o exercito; esquadron; oexercito de soldados; exercito; hueste gente de guerra; hueste; gente de guerra; veste de gentes. . 55m-2| yaoquizque ?ntlamantin. escuadron batalla; guarnicion de gente. . 55m- 8| yaoquizque ?ntlamantin [scribal error: ??printing error: centlamatin for centlamantin: 55m]. pauesada de armados. . 55m-15| yaoquizque ?ntlamantin. escuadron de batalla; guarnicion de gente; pauesada de armados; vn esquadron de soldados. . 71m1-10| yaoquizque =icxinenenque. pauesada de armados. x +a>i>. 55m-15| yaoquizqueh. ; soldiers; warriors. . b.6 f.17 p.204| yaoquizqui. soldado de batalla; soldado. . 71m1-19| yaoquizqui. warrior. . b.8 f.3 p.51| yaot , o-. she fought. . b.6 f.15 p.187| yaot , otoh-. you made war. . b.6 f.16 p.194| yaot. she fought a battle. . b.6 f.14 p.167| [y]aotachcacahuan , i-. his war leaders. . b.9 f.1 p.5| yaotachcahua. war leaders. . b.8 f.5 p.87| yaotachcahuan. ; war leaders. . b.9 f.3 p.32| yaotachcauh. . . b.12 f.3 p.44| yaotachcauh. capitan; capitan de soldados; caudillo. . 55m-2| yaotachcauh. commander; war commander. . b.12 f.3 p.40| yaotachcauhti =ni. capitanear. . 55m-3| yaotachcauhti =ni=oniyaotachcauhtic. capitanear enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotachcauhyotl. capitania assi (assi is capitan); capitania tal (tal is capitan); officio de capitan de soldados. . 55m-2| yaoteca =ni. capitanear; guarnecer gente; para la guerra. . 71m1-4| yaoteca =ni=oniyaotecac. capitanear enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotecah. they dispose for battle. . b.8 f.5 p.88| yaotecani. battle director; one who instigates war; one who maneuvers troops; warlord. . b.12 f.3 p.40| yaotecaya. he presided over war. . b.12 f.8 p.118| yaotecoz. . . b.8 f.3 p.51| yaotecpanaliztli =ne. ordenanza de soldados; ordenanza o haz de soldados. . 71m1-16| yaotehuatoqueh. . . b.8 f.3 p.52| yaotenamitl. bulwark. . b.10 f.2 p.23| yaotenco. on the enemy border. . b.1 f.2 p.32| yaotenhuahqueh. those who hold the enemy borders. . b.1 f.2 p.32| yaoteoaque. . . b.8 f.4 p.57| yaotequi. . . b.8 f.3 p.43| yaotequihuah. . . b.2 f.3 p.70| yaotequihuah. capitan; capitan de guerra; caudillo. . 71m1-4| yaotequihuah , i-. . . b.4 f.3 p.24| yaotequihuah. seasoned warrior. . b.5 f.1 p.165| yaotequihuahqueh. seasoned warriors. . b.8 f.5 p.87| yaotequilia =nite=oniteyaotequili. capitanear enla guerra o ordenar los esquadrones para dar batalla. . 71m2- 5| yaotequilizli =ne [scribal error: ??printing error: neyaotequilitzli for neyaotequilizli; m1 and m5 have neyaotequilizli: 71m2]. ordenanza o haz de soldados. . 71m2-11| yaotequiliztli =ne. haz batalla ordenada; haz; ^batalla ordenada.. i>. 55m-10| yaotetzahuitl. omen of war. . b.1 f.1 p.11| yaotia , quimmo-. it preys on them; it wages war. . b.11 f.1 p.6| yaotia , quimo-. it attacks it; they prey on it. . b.11 f.2 p.18| yaotia =ninote. contrariar a alguno; contrariar o contradezir a alguno; enemistarse con otro. . 55m- 3| yaotia =ninote=oninoteyaoti. contender con alguno, o enemistarse con otro; . . 71m2-5| yaotianquiztli. market place in enemy lands. . b.10 f.2 p.24| yaotica. in battle. . b.12 f.2 p.27| yaotihua. one fights, people do battle; people wage war; there is going to war; people go to battle; war is waged. . b.8 f.5 p.72| yaotiliz , to-. our battle. . b.9 f.4 p.43| yaotiliztli =nete. contrariedad assi (assi is contrariar a alguno); contrariedad assi (assi is contrariar o contradezir a alguno); contencion; brega; o guerra. . 55m- 3| yaotiliztli. war. . b.8 f.3 p.52| yaotitlan. field of battle; in a warlike land; in enemy land; region of battle. . b.4 f.5 p.47| yaotitlanqueh , mo-. they were sent as war messengers. . b.8 f.2 p.39| yaotiz. he will war. . b.8 f.4 p.65| yaotl. . . b.6 f.1 p.11| yaotl. contrario enemigo; enemigo. . 55m-3| yaotl. !name=yaotl. . b.1 f.4 p.67| yaotl , necoc -. traitor. . b.10 f.2 p.38| yaotl. enemy; murderer. . b.1 f.1 p.5| yaotla =nite. batallar pelear; batallar; guerra hazer; pelear. . 55m-2| yaotla =nite=oniteyaotlac. hazer guerra a otros. . 71m2-5| yaotlachia =ni. atalayar en guerra. . 55m-1| yaotlachia =ni=oniyaotlachix. atalayar la centinela enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotlachializtli. el acto de atalayar assi (assi is atalayar la centinela enla guerra). . 71m2-5| yaotlachiani. alataya, o centinela; atalaya de guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotlachiani. sentinel. . b.10 f.2 p.24| yaotlachixqueh. spies, sentinels; they spied. . b.12 f.5 p.78| yaotlachixqui. alataya, o centinela; atalaya de guerra; espia de batalla. x>. 71m2-5| yaotlachixqui. sentinel. x>. b.12 f.6 p.97| yaotlahtalhuia =nite. maherir para la guerra, apercebir o se?alar. . 55m-13| yaotlahtalhuia =nite=oniteyaotlatalhui. apercebir para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotlahtalhuiliztli =te. maherimiento de guerra. . 55m-13| yaotlahtoa =ni. maherir para la guerra, apercebir o se?alar. . 55m-13| yaotlahtoa =ni=oniyaotlato. apercebir para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotlahtoa. he declares war; they announce war; they proclaim war. . b.8 f.4 p.65| yaotlahtoani. battle ruler; one who instigates war. . b.12 f.3 p.40| yaotlahtoaquetl. man of war. . b.2 f.14 p.240| yaotlahtoaya. they declared war. . b.4 f.9 p.91| yaotlahtoh. captain, leader in war; one who proclaims war. . b.2 f.14 p.227| yaotlahtolli. maherimiento de guerra. . 55m-13| yaotlahtolo. war is declared. . b.4 f.9 p.91| yaotlahtoloc , o-. war was declared. . b.4 f.7 p.70| yaotlahtoloz. there will be a declaration of war. . b.8 f.4 p.57| yaotlahtozqueh. they will announce war. . b.8 f.3 p.51| yaotlahueliloc. daring in battle; furious in battle; furious in war; intrepid in war; reckless in war. . b.4 f.6 p.51| yaotlahueliloqueh. intrepid warriors; perverted warriors; those who are furious in battle. . b.4 f.2 p.17| yaotlalhuia =nite. apercebir para la guerra; llamar para la guerra. . 55m-1| yaotlalhuia =nite=oniteyaotlalhui. apercebir a otros para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotlalhuiliztli =te. apercebimiento tal (tal is apercebir para la guerra); llamamiento tal (tal is llamar para la guerra); . . 55m-1| yaotlalhuiliztli =tla. apercebimiento tal (tal is apercebir para la guerra). . 71m1-2| yaotlalhuilli =tla. apercebido assi (assi is apercebir para la guerra); el que es llamado o apercebido para la guerra; llamado assi (assi is llamar para la guerra). . 55m- 1| yaotlalhuiloc , ote-. war was announced among people. . b.4 f.7 p.70| yaotlalia =nino. guarecerse. . 55m-10| yaotlalia =nino=. ponerse apunto para acometer al enemigo, o ponerse en buen puesto. . 71m2-5| yaotlaliliztli =ne. pelea, o contienda. . 71m2-11| yaotlaliloyan =ne. guarida para defenderse. . 55m-10| yaotlaliztli =ne. enemistad; escaramuza. . 55m- 7| yaotlanahuatiaya. he declared war. . b.9 f.2 p.24| yaotlani =te. batallador; guerreador. . 71m2- 16| yaotlapia =ni=oniyaotlapix. atalayar. . 71m2- 5| yaotlapializtica. guarding against the foe. . b.8 f.4 p.57| yaotlapializtli. guard, watch against enemies. . b.8 f.4 p.56| yaotlapialoya. estancia de veladores en batallas. . 55m-9| yaotlapialoyan. estancia de^veladores en la batalla; lugar para atalayar. . 71m1-11| yaotlapixque. escuchas de campo o espias; escuchas; o espias del campo. x>. 55m-8| yaotlapixqueh. sentries; they kept watch. x>. b.10 f.2 p.24| yaotlapixqui. espia de batalla; espia; atalaya; o centinela. x>. 55m-9| yaotlathuiliztli =te. . . 71m2-16| yaotlatia =nino. guarecerse. . 71m1-12| yaotlatiloyan =ne. fortaleza o guarida de soldados. . 71m2-11| yaotlatqui , in-. their war array, their war equipment; their battle dress; their battle gear; their battle equipment. . b.12 f.2 p.19| yaotlatquichichihua =ni=. hazer armas para soldados. . 71m2-5| yaotlatquichichiuhqui. armero que haze armas para soldado. . 71m2-5| yaotlatquichihua =ni. armas hazer; armas hazer para pelear. . 55m-1| yaotlatquichiuhqui. armero que haze armas. . 55m-1| yaotlatquitl. armas para la guerra; municion de guerra. . 55m-1| yaotlatquitl. battle gear; war array; war equipment; war goods. . b.12 f.3 p.50| yaotlatzotzonalo. there is beating of wardrums. . b.12 f.5 p.76| yaotle. ; O Yaotl!. . b.5 f.1 p.158| yaotzahtzi =ni. apellidar llamar a la guerra; apellidar; llamar para la guerra. . 55m-1| yaotzahtzi =ni=oniyaotzatzic. apellidar para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotzahtzic. el que apellida para la guerra. . 71m2-5| yaotzahtzilia =nite. apellidar llamar a la guerra; apellidar; llamar para la guerra. . 55m-1| yaotzahtzilia =nite=oniteyaotzatzili. . . 71m2-5| yaotzahtziliani =te. apellidador de guerra. . 71m2-16| yaotzahtzililiztli =te. apellido assi (assi is apellidar llamar a la guerra); apellido assi (assi is apellidar; llamar para la guerra); apellido de guerra; o maherimiento para ella. . 55m-1| yaotzahtziliztli. apellido assi (assi is apellidar llamar a la guerra); apellido assi (assi is apellidar; llamar para la guerra); apellido tal (tal is apellidar para la guerra). . 55m-1| yaotzin. !name=yaotzin. . b.3 f.3 p.51| yaotzine. !name=yaotzin-e2; !name=O yaotzin; O Yaotl. . b.6 f.1 p.11| yaotzintohpolto. . . b.10 f.2 p.24| yaouh , amo-. your [pl.] foe. . b.12 f.5 p.78| yaouh , i-. his enemy, his foe. . b.10 f.11 p.185| yaouh , mo-. ; your enemy. . b.6 f.13 p.160| yaouh , te-. murderer of people. . b.10 f.2 p.38| yaouh , to-. our enemy; our foe; our adversary. . b.6 f.5 p.55| yaouh =te. contrario enemigo; enemigo. . 55m-3| yaoxacalli. war hut. . b.10 f.2 p.24| yaoyahqueh , hual-. they went to war. . b.12 f.4 p.59| yaoyahualoa =nite. cercar los enemigos. . 55m-4| yaoyahualoa =nite=oniteyaoyahualo. cercar alos enemigos enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yaoyahualoani =te. el que cerca alos enemigos. . 71m2-16| yaoyahualoliztica =te. cercando, o atajando los enemigos. . 71m2-16| yaoyahualoliztli =te. cerco assi (assi is cercados enemigos); cerca desta manera (desta manera is cercar los enemigos); el acto de cercar alos enemigos. . 55m- 4| yaoyahualolo. it is encircled by foes; it is surrounded by enemies. . b.8 f.4 p.56| yaoyahualoloz. it will be surrounded by enemies. . b.6 f.7 p.81| yaoyahualolti =tla. cercados enemigos. . 55m-4| yaoyahualoltin =tla. cercados enemigos. . 71m1-6| yaoyotica. in battle; militarily. . b.12 f.3 p.35| yaoyotl. batalla o guerra; guerra; o batalla; pelea. . 55m-2| yaoyotl. war; warfare; battle. . b.1 f.1 p.1| yaoyotzin , mo-. your battle, your warfare. . b.6 f.15 p.185| yaoyouh , to-. our battle. . b.6 f.15 p.180| yayaopehualtia , quimmo-. they provoke them to battle. . b.2 f.1 p.50| yayaotla , mo-. they fight each other; they engage in mock fight. . b.2 f.9 p.149| yayaotla =nino. escaramuzar. . 55m-8| yayaotla =tito=otitoyayaotlaque. escaramuzar vnos con otros. . 71m2-5| yayaotlaliztli =ne. iuegos de pelea; juego de ca?as; o escaramuza. . 55m-11| yayaotlalo , ne-. there is war-like behavior toward each other. . b.2 f.2 p.63| yayaotlani =mo. escaramuzador. . 55m-8| yecoa =yaoc nitla. batallar fuertemente; fuertemente batallar; trabajar fuertemente enla guerra. . 71m1- 3| yecoa =yaoc nitla=iaoc onitlayecoh. pelear fuertemente enla batalla. . 71m2-21| yecoa =yaoc nitla=yaoc onitlayeco. batallar, o pelear fuertemente enla guerra; pelear fuertemente enla guerra. . 71m2-5| yecoani =yaoc tla. guerreador. . 71m1- 12| yeya =yaotlapixque in. estancia de veladores en batallas. x>. 55m-9| yeyan =yaotlapixque in. estancia de^veladores en la batalla. x>. 71m1-11| yoayahualoa =nite. cercar los enemigos. . 71m1-6| Quoting "Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E." : > Dear colleagues, > > I am currently writing an article on the 'Women of Discord' in Aztec > history and would be grateful for your help in interpreting the name > of the goddess 'Yaocihuatl'. It is most often translated as > 'War/Warrior Woman', but Susan Gillespie, in 'The Aztec Kings' > translates the term as 'War Woman' on p.59 and as 'Woman of Discord' > on p.213. The former translation seems the most obvious, although > there are obviously linguistic roots with the term 'tlatolyaotl' > (translated as 'discord' in the Florentine Codex). I'd be very > grateful for any thoughts colleagues can offer on the translation or > interpretation of this name. > > Many thanks, > Caroline > ------- > Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock > Lecturer in Early Modern History > School of Historical Studies > University of Leicester > University Road > Leicester > LE1 7RH > > email: ced22 at le.ac.uk > http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sat Aug 8 07:20:44 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 09:20:44 +0200 Subject: Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl -- Location In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Many thanks to David Wright and Michel Oudijk for these valuable book tips. I presume most photos so far only depict Tizocic's famous temalacatl, or do these books / catalogues also show the more recently discovered stone that Michel Graulich identifies as commissioned by Axayacatl (rather than Motecuhzoma Ilhuicamina)? I could curse myself for not doing a thorough study of Tizocic's monument while in Mexico last year. I'm not sure where the other monument is located at present and whether it is on public display. Does anyone happen to know where it's housed today? Best wishes and thanks, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 8 16:35:33 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 11:35:33 -0500 Subject: Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl -- Location In-Reply-To: <49499.84.132.254.127.1249716044.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Estimado Gordon: The book by Matos and Sol?s has complete, fairly large scale, high resolution, roll-out color photos of both stones, the Piedra de T?zoc and the Piedra del ex Arzobispado. The earlier, more recently discovered sculpture is usually called the Piedra del ex Arzobispado after the place it was found, since it's not clear which Mexica lord commissioned it (actually most people write "Piedra del Ex-Arzobispado" or, as in the case of the Matos/Sol?s book, "Piedra del exArzobispado", but in Spanish ex is more properly written separate from the following word and without the hyphen). The last time I saw the latter piece it was in the Sala Mexica of the Museo Nacional de Antropolog?a. That was a few years ago; I suppose it's still there. The latter sculpture helps us to interpret te former. A comparison of the toponymical signs in the conquest sign clusters shows that both sculptures register the same sequence of conquests, beginning with Colhuacan (as in the Codex Mendoza); the Piedra del ex Arzobispado has 11 conquests and the Piedra de T?zoc has the same 11 plus four more, for a total of 15. So the old interpretation of the 15 conquests on the latter sculpture being T?zoc's has been discarded; it now looks like just the last four were accomplished under this lord, and that the idea is to show a sequence of key Mexica conquests. Some of the water-mountains registered were conquered more than one time, according to other sources (like the Codex Mendoza), which opens up alternative possibilities for their place in the sequence. Of the four water-mountains that appear on the piedra de T?zoc but not on the Piedra del ex Arzobispado, only the first, Matlatzinco (represented by a relief of a triangular net, in position number 12, counting from Culhuacan) is registered among the conquests of T?zoc in the Codex Mendoza. I just did a quick search to see if I could find if the Piedra del ex Arzobispado is still in the Sala Mexica. I didn't find the answer, but I found an article from 2006 by L?pez Austin that I had missed. Here's the link; it's freely available on REDALYC: http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/redalyc/pdf/369/36908907.pdf Saludos, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Gordon Whittaker Enviado el: s?bado, 08 de agosto de 2009 02:21 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Stones of Tizocic and Motecuhzoma I / Axayacatl -- Location Dear colleagues, Many thanks to David Wright and Michel Oudijk for these valuable book tips. I presume most photos so far only depict Tizocic's famous temalacatl, or do these books / catalogues also show the more recently discovered stone that Michel Graulich identifies as commissioned by Axayacatl (rather than Motecuhzoma Ilhuicamina)? I could curse myself for not doing a thorough study of Tizocic's monument while in Mexico last year. I'm not sure where the other monument is located at present and whether it is on public display. Does anyone happen to know where it's housed today? Best wishes and thanks, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ced22 at leicester.ac.uk Fri Aug 7 20:16:34 2009 From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk (Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E.) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 21:16:34 +0100 Subject: [Aztlan] Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: <4A7C7F27.2050308@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Many thanks to all those colleagues who have responded so far with helpful information. It's much appreciated and very helpful in trying to clarify this. I realise there is ambiguity, and that Gillespie is justified in interpreting in either way as appropriate. I'm just trying to get a sense of the word, whether it provides any clues to the specific nature of the goddess, and if one translation is more compelling than another. I think that John is right to clarify the cihuatl = woman aspect of this. Not only linguistically, but also contextually (and from Spanish glosses, e.g. Torquemada) the 'woman' element of Yaocihuatl is clear. It is the 'yao' component which appears ambiguous. Thanks again for all your responses (thus far and future)! Caroline ------- Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock Lecturer in Early Modern History School of Historical Studies University of Leicester University Road Leicester LE1 7RH email: ced22 at le.ac.uk http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ced22 at leicester.ac.uk Tue Aug 11 19:45:10 2009 From: ced22 at leicester.ac.uk (Dodds Pennock, Dr C.E.) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 20:45:10 +0100 Subject: Yaocihuatl In-Reply-To: <20090807184138.kt7b3ms2vk80oc0o@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Many thanks to all those of you who took the time to contact me about my query - your help is much appreciated. From what I can find, it seems that the phrase 'Woman of Discord' seems to come mostly from Spanish accounts of the relevant incidents, rather than being a direct translation of 'Yaocihuatl' which is more clearly 'War Woman'. I guess it's a more 'poetic' way of putting it, and makes sense in the Spanish contexts, although it needs addressing in my article directly I think, because 'war' isn't quite the same as 'discord'. Sincerely Caroline ------- Dr Caroline Dodds Pennock Lecturer in Early Modern History School of Historical Studies University of Leicester University Road Leicester LE1 7RH tel: 0116 223 1229 mobile: 07740675610 email: ced22 at le.ac.uk http://www.le.ac.uk/history/people/ced22.html _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 20 00:56:11 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:56:11 -0500 Subject: Colonial Huastec Nahuatl Message-ID: Howdy, folks. Does anybody know of any written documents in Nahuatl from the Huasteca region of the colonial period (descriptions, Christian texts, manuscripts in archives, or anything else)? _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Thu Aug 20 11:12:41 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:12:41 +0200 Subject: Some grammar doubts Message-ID: Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but with no success. 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do not pronounce it, while some others do. 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part and the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with Spanish "calle"? 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this word come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? I would appreciate any comments. Thank you. Susana Moraleda _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 20 14:40:16 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:40:16 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <000a01ca2187$27087e10$d2e83697@susana> Message-ID: Cualli tonalli, Susana, Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in > Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across > the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but > with no success. > > 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? The latter NOCXIUH is definitely the "classic" Nahuatl form. The h, despite what people might say today in Mexico (your #2 below), is orthographic, i.e., it is not pronounced. The old Spaniards used "uh" to write /w/. Phonologically, the term is /nok$iw/, where /$/ is the sound written "sh" in English. NOCXI sounds modern dialectal, baby talk...or... just plain funny. > > 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do not > pronounce it, while some others do. > > 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part and > the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? The "water" morpheme in this term takes the form /al-/. In other words, in this term AL is 'water'. > > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with Spanish > "calle"? Nope. The two words just happen to sound the same, the same as French "ici" and Nahuatl "ici". No relationship. > > 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this word > come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? Ahmo nicmati. :-) > > I would appreciate any comments. > > Thank you. > Susana Moraleda > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From nekopixan at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 15:00:44 2009 From: nekopixan at gmail.com (Mizton Pixan) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:00:44 -0500 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <20090820104016.emk12a7yocws4ogc@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hello people, I'm new here, and I'm liking this lil group a lot :) Hm... I really have to differ about that H. They do pronounce it, but it's pretty subtile, I have spoken to several native people and they do pronounce it. Of course, not in every case. And "chanequeh" is a short form for "ohuican chanequi" (those who live in dangerous places). The term describes little spirits that protect nature.... pretty much like goblins, but they are usually not bad, just mischievous. See ya! On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Cualli tonalli, Susana, > > > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > > > Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in > > Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across > > the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but > > with no success. > > > > 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? > > > The latter NOCXIUH is definitely the "classic" Nahuatl form. The h, > despite what people might say today in Mexico (your #2 below), is > orthographic, i.e., it is not pronounced. The old Spaniards used "uh" > to write /w/. Phonologically, the term is > > /nok$iw/, where /$/ is the sound written "sh" in English. > > NOCXI sounds modern dialectal, baby talk...or... just plain funny. > > > > > > 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do > not > > pronounce it, while some others do. > > > > 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part > and > > the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? > > The "water" morpheme in this term takes the form /al-/. In other words, > in this term AL is 'water'. > > > > > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with > Spanish > > "calle"? > > Nope. The two words just happen to sound the same, the same as French > "ici" and Nahuatl "ici". No relationship. > > > > > 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this > word > > come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? > > Ahmo nicmati. :-) > > > > > I would appreciate any comments. > > > > Thank you. > > Susana Moraleda > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Si la vida te da la espalda... ag?rrale las nalgas. If life turns its back on you... grab its butt. Si la vie te tourne le dos... saisis lui les fesses. Wenn das Leben dir den R?cken zukehrt... ergreif seinen Po. Se la vita ti volta le spalle... afferragli il sedere. ???????????... ???????? Intla in nemiliztli mitzneci icuetlapan... xquitzqui itzin :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Aug 20 15:03:49 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 11:03:49 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <000a01ca2187$27087e10$d2e83697@susana> Message-ID: For one thing, the two are pronounced quite differently, and so don't sound very much alike. As noted they have nothing in common, any more than the English word "red" (a color like scarlet) has with the Spanish word "red" (a net or network). Susana Moraleda wrote: > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with Spanish > "calle"? > I would appreciate any comments. > > Thank you. > Susana Moraleda > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 20 16:27:32 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:27:32 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's hard to explain why the orthographic -h would be pronounced, since it's purely functionally orthographic in nature. My *guess* is that the pronunciation is influenced by the spelling, as when people pronounce English "often" [AftEn], with a /t/; it's not part of the original pronunciation. Michael Quoting Mizton Pixan : > Hello people, I'm new here, and I'm liking this lil group a lot :) > > Hm... I really have to differ about that H. They do pronounce it, but it's > pretty subtile, I have spoken to several native people and they do pronounce > it. Of course, not in every case. > And "chanequeh" is a short form for "ohuican chanequi" (those who live in > dangerous places). The term describes little spirits that protect nature.... > pretty much like goblins, but they are usually not bad, just mischievous. > > See ya! > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: > >> Cualli tonalli, Susana, >> >> >> Quoting Susana Moraleda : >> >> > Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in >> > Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across >> > the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but >> > with no success. >> > >> > 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? >> >> >> The latter NOCXIUH is definitely the "classic" Nahuatl form. The h, >> despite what people might say today in Mexico (your #2 below), is >> orthographic, i.e., it is not pronounced. The old Spaniards used "uh" >> to write /w/. Phonologically, the term is >> >> /nok$iw/, where /$/ is the sound written "sh" in English. >> >> NOCXI sounds modern dialectal, baby talk...or... just plain funny. >> >> >> > >> > 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do >> not >> > pronounce it, while some others do. >> > >> > 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part >> and >> > the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? >> >> The "water" morpheme in this term takes the form /al-/. In other words, >> in this term AL is 'water'. >> >> > >> > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with >> Spanish >> > "calle"? >> >> Nope. The two words just happen to sound the same, the same as French >> "ici" and Nahuatl "ici". No relationship. >> >> > >> > 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this >> word >> > come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? >> >> Ahmo nicmati. :-) >> >> > >> > I would appreciate any comments. >> > >> > Thank you. >> > Susana Moraleda >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nahuatl mailing list >> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > -- > Si la vida te da la espalda... ag?rrale las nalgas. If life turns its back > on you... grab its butt. Si la vie te tourne le dos... saisis lui les > fesses. Wenn das Leben dir den R?cken zukehrt... ergreif seinen Po. Se la > vita ti volta le spalle... afferragli il sedere. ???????????... ???????? > Intla in nemiliztli mitzneci icuetlapan... xquitzqui itzin :) > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Thu Aug 20 16:55:15 2009 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:55:15 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <000a01ca2187$27087e10$d2e83697@susana> Message-ID: LISTCAN CHANEQUIH: 1- As Sr. McCafferty noted, NOXCIUH is the preferred form. In Classical Nahuatl, The dictionary form for "foot" is (i)cxi-tl. It loses the initial i when prefixed. The absolutive suffix is only present in the non-possessed form. The possessed suffix -uh is added when a noun stem ends in a vowel. A noun whose stem ends in a consonant, i.e. oquich-tli, does not take a possessed suffix, so "my man" would be noquich, without any suffix. 2- In classical Nahuatl, the written sequences HU and UH are digraphs, two letters to denote one sound, viz. /w/. H in any other place is for a glottal stop (sounding like the t in kitten). The glottal stop has been lost from most modern varieties of Nahuatl, and is now a more or less weakly-aspirated /h/. So sometimes H is silent (in UH and HU), and sometimes it is not (elsewhere, unless there is some dialect which has lost it completely) On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Susana Moraleda wrote: > Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in > Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across > the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but > with no success. > > 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? > > 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do not > pronounce it, while some others do. > > 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part > and > the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? > > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with > Spanish > "calle"? > > 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this > word > come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? > > I would appreciate any comments. > > Thank you. > Susana Moraleda > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Thu Aug 20 18:16:43 2009 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:16:43 -0400 Subject: Pronunciation of orthographic h Message-ID: I think we need to untangle some different "h"s here. As mentioned, orthographic hu-/-uh represents /w/. Hu- is used syllable-initially, and -uh finally. There is a universal devoicing rule that applies to syllable-final consonants in Nahuatl, so -uh represents a slightly different pronunciation than hu-. Then there is the h that represents "saltillo," which was pronounced as a glottal stop by speakers in the central area of Nahuatl, but as an h-like aspiration in peripheral variants of the language. This one is always syllable-final, but in reduplicated forms such as ihi:yo:tl, it can be found followed by a vowel. And then again, there is prosodic -h to be heard at the end of vowel- final words. This is not a segmental consonant, but it's handy to distinguish vowel-final words from words with whispered but true final consonants. (I.e., if it sounds like it ends in /h/ or glottal stop, then it really ends in a vowel. If it sounds like it ends in a vowel, it really ends in a consonant. Isn't that enough to make you crazy?) And finally, in some variants of Nahuatl, where there is a consonant cluster across syllable boundary inside a word, the first consonant undergoes that same devoicing as mentioned above and is whispered. So for calli one hears cahli, etc. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 20 19:20:16 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:20:16 -0500 Subject: Some grammar doubts Message-ID: People pretty well answered Susana's questions. I just have one more comment to add. In the standard enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, Karttunen, Bierhorst, and others, the letter h can be a glottal stop /?/, or it can be used to write the phoneme /w/, when it appears in the digraphs hu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uh (at the end of a syllable). All of that was explained by Jesse. What I want to add is that in some colonial Nahuatl manuscripts we find the sequence cuh, apparently used to write the phoneme /kw/ (like /k/ produced with rounded lips), often written with the digraphs cu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uc (at the end of a syllable). In colonial practice cu and cuh were also used at the end of a syllable instead of uc. One very prominent example is tecuhtli (which would be written teuctli in the enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, Karttunen, and Bierhorst, being the phonemic sequence /tekwtli/, where the /kw/ is one phoneme as described above). This word, when used in compound nouns preceding other morphemes, is reduced to the root teuc- /tekw/. Examples of this are Moteuczoma /motekwsoma/, the name of two tenochca lords, and Tlalteuctli /tlaltekwtli/, a terrestrial deity. These names can be found in colonial documents (and even in modern academical texts written by phonetically naive authors) written as Motecuhzoma and Tlaltecuhtli, giving the false impression that they contain the syllable /cuh/, when in realty the sequence cuh is nothing more than the phoneme /kw/. This matter has been discussed on this list in past years, and the matter is complicated somewhat by the existence in a few modern varieties of Nahuatl of the form /tekohtli/ (or something like that), sometimes written tecuhtli (there is no vowel /u/ in colonial Nahuatl except as an allophone or pronunciation variant of /o/), for example in Milpa Alta, D.F. John Sullivan provided a similar example from contemporary Huastecan Nahuatl, if I remember correctly. Karttunen suggested on this list that these forms may be "spelling pronunciations" influenced by traditional conventions in written texts, but as far as I could see the matter was not resolved to everybody's satisfaction. What I really wanted to say is that the letter h in the sequence cuh is probably superfluous. I suspect colonial authors added it because uh was used for /w/, so adding it to the digraph cu (for /kw/) merely reinforced, in a redundant way, the roundness of the lips when pronouncing /kw/, in addition to making it clear that cuh was not to be read as the syllable cu (that is, writing cu for /co/ and thinking of the allophone [u] for the phoneme /o/). Sorry for being a bit pedantic; I had envisioned a simpler comment when I started writing this post. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 20 19:27:59 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:27:59 -0500 Subject: Some grammar doubts Message-ID: P.S. I carelessly hit the send button before adding the long vowel marks (:). They're not essential to the matter being discussed, but for the sake of accuracy here goes the message again with the (probable) long vowels marked. ************************************************* People pretty well answered Susana's questions. I just have one more comment to add. In the standard enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, Karttunen, Bierhorst, and others, the letter h can be a glottal stop /?/, or it can be used to write the phoneme /w/, when it appears in the digraphs hu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uh (at the end of a syllable). All of that was explained by Jesse. What I want to add is that in some colonial Nahuatl manuscripts we find the sequence cuh, apparently used to write the phoneme /kw/ (like /k/ produced with rounded lips), often written with the digraphs cu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uc (at the end of a syllable). In colonial practice cu and cuh were also used at the end of a syllable instead of uc. One very prominent example is tecuhtli (which would be written te:uctli in the enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, Karttunen, and Bierhorst, being the phonemic sequence /te:kwtli/, where the /kw/ is one phoneme as described above). This word, when used in compound nouns preceding other morphemes, is reduced to the root te:uc- /te:kw/. Examples of this are Mote:uczo:ma /mote:kwso:ma/, the name of two tenochca lords, and Tla:lte:uctli /tla:lte:kwtli/, a terrestrial deity. These names can be found in colonial documents (and even in modern academical texts written by phonetically naive authors) written as Motecuhzoma and Tlaltecuhtli, giving the false impression that they contain the syllable /cuh/, when in realty the sequence cuh is nothing more than the phoneme /kw/. This matter has been discussed on this list in past years, and the matter is complicated somewhat by the existence in a few modern varieties of Nahuatl of the form /te:kohtli/ (or something like that), sometimes written tecuhtli (there is no vowel /u/ in colonial Nahuatl except as an allophone or pronunciation variant of /o/), for example in Milpa Alta, D.F. John Sullivan provided a similar example from contemporary Huastecan Nahuatl, if I remember correctly. Karttunen suggested on this list that these forms may be "spelling pronunciations" influenced by traditional conventions in written texts, but as far as I could see the matter was not resolved to everybody's satisfaction. What I really wanted to say is that the letter h in the sequence cuh is probably superfluous. I suspect colonial authors added it because uh was used for /w/, so adding it to the digraph cu (for /kw/) merely reinforced, in a redundant way, the roundness of the lips when pronouncing /kw/, in addition to making it clear that cuh was not to be read as the syllable cu (that is, writing cu for /co/ and thinking of the allophone [u] for the phoneme /o/). Sorry for being a bit pedantic; I had envisioned a simpler comment when I started writing this post. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 22:06:00 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 17:06:00 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 142, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Susana 1. Both are correct depending on what kind of Nahuatl. In classical Nahuatl adding the final -w is a sign that the noun is possessed and it hould be added. In modern nahuatl that final -w is often pronounced very weakly (as a soft english h) or no at all. So 2. In Classical nahuatl the letter h is used together with the letter u write the sound /w/ as in icxiuh should be pronounced ikshiw. In many modern Nahuatl dialects there is an h sound very similar to the english one - . In some modern orthographies this sund is written with the letter j but should be pronounced as the english sound h. In other orthographies it is written with h. This h sound corresponds more or less to the glottal stop/saltillo in classical Nahuatl. In some classical orthographies (e.g. the one used by frances Karttunen) this glottal stop is written with the letter h. 3.We don't know we just know that when /a:-tl/ is prefixed to other words often there appears an extra l. Not just in a:ltepe.tl but also in palce names like alpuyeca from /a:lpo:yecca:n/. Sometimes other uto-Aztecan languages have n or r where nahuatl has l like this. Karen Dakin suggests that these l's then come from a previous proto-uto-aztecan *r which sometimes surfaces as weird l's in Nahuatl. 4. no. It has to do with the word calli "house". Calli comes from the proto-uto-Aztecan word generally reconstructed as *kahni "house". Calle comes from latin callis "path". 5. Chanehqueh are anyone who has a home. The mythical cha:nequeh are spirits inhabiting certain parts of nature - e.g. springs, caves, watercrossings. best regards Magnus Pharao Hansen . --- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Susana Moraleda" > To: > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:12:41 +0200 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Some grammar doubts > Sorry if I'm being too primitive and elementary (I'm not an expert in > Nahuatl, but I love it), but in revising my Nahuatl grammar I came across > the following doubts which I tried to clear reading several sources, but > with no success. > > 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? > > 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do not > pronounce it, while some others do. > > 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part > and the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? > > 4 - CALEH is one who has a house. Does this have anything to do with > Spanish "calle"? > > 5 - I believe CHANEHQUEH is people who have homes. Why and how did this > word come to mean those imaginary little men residing in the forests? > > I would appreciate any comments. > > Thank you. > Susana Moraleda > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 20 22:22:37 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:22:37 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <001501ca21cb$42547770$c6fd6650$@net.mx> Message-ID: Quoting David Wright : > People pretty well answered Susana's questions. I just have one more comment > to add. In the standard enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, > Karttunen, Bierhorst, and others, the letter h can be a glottal stop /?/, or > it can be used to write the phoneme /w/, when it appears in the digraphs hu > (at the beginning of a syllable) and uh (at the end of a syllable). All of > that was explained by Jesse. What I want to add is that in some colonial > Nahuatl manuscripts we find the sequence cuh, apparently used to write the > phoneme /kw/ (like /k/ produced with rounded lips), often written with the > digraphs cu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uc (at the end of a > syllable). In colonial practice cu and cuh were also used at the end of a > syllable instead of uc. One very prominent example is tecuhtli (which would > be written teuctli in the enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, > Karttunen, and Bierhorst, being the phonemic sequence /tekwtli/, Listeros: This is actually /te:kwtli/. Long /e:/. Terms that appear between / and / are *phonemic* spellings and necessitate the indicating of vowel lengths. where the > /kw/ is one phoneme as described above). This word, when used in compound > nouns preceding other morphemes, is reduced to the root teuc- /tekw/. /te:kw-/ > Examples of this are Moteuczoma /motekwsoma/, /mote:kwso:ma:/ the name of two tenochca > lords, and Tlalteuctli /tlaltekwtli/ /tla:lte:kwtli/ Michael , > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 20 22:23:12 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:23:12 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <001601ca21cc$55d26fe0$01774fa0$@net.mx> Message-ID: Ah..and now we have them. ;-) Quoting David Wright : > P.S. I carelessly hit the send button before adding the long vowel marks > (:). They're not essential to the matter being discussed, but for the sake > of accuracy here goes the message again with the (probable) long vowels > marked. > > ************************************************* > > People pretty well answered Susana's questions. I just have one more comment > to add. In the standard enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, > Karttunen, Bierhorst, and others, the letter h can be a glottal stop /?/, or > it can be used to write the phoneme /w/, when it appears in the digraphs hu > (at the beginning of a syllable) and uh (at the end of a syllable). All of > that was explained by Jesse. What I want to add is that in some colonial > Nahuatl manuscripts we find the sequence cuh, apparently used to write the > phoneme /kw/ (like /k/ produced with rounded lips), often written with the > digraphs cu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uc (at the end of a > syllable). In colonial practice cu and cuh were also used at the end of a > syllable instead of uc. One very prominent example is tecuhtli (which would > be written te:uctli in the enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, > Karttunen, and Bierhorst, being the phonemic sequence /te:kwtli/, where the > /kw/ is one phoneme as described above). This word, when used in compound > nouns preceding other morphemes, is reduced to the root te:uc- /te:kw/. > Examples of this are Mote:uczo:ma /mote:kwso:ma/, the name of two tenochca > lords, and Tla:lte:uctli /tla:lte:kwtli/, a terrestrial deity. These names > can be found in colonial documents (and even in modern academical texts > written by phonetically naive authors) written as Motecuhzoma and > Tlaltecuhtli, giving the false impression that they contain the syllable > /cuh/, when in realty the sequence cuh is nothing more than the phoneme > /kw/. > > This matter has been discussed on this list in past years, and the matter is > complicated somewhat by the existence in a few modern varieties of Nahuatl > of the form /te:kohtli/ (or something like that), sometimes written tecuhtli > (there is no vowel /u/ in colonial Nahuatl except as an allophone or > pronunciation variant of /o/), for example in Milpa Alta, D.F. John Sullivan > provided a similar example from contemporary Huastecan Nahuatl, if I > remember correctly. Karttunen suggested on this list that these forms may be > "spelling pronunciations" influenced by traditional conventions in written > texts, but as far as I could see the matter was not resolved to everybody's > satisfaction. > > What I really wanted to say is that the letter h in the sequence cuh is > probably superfluous. I suspect colonial authors added it because uh was > used for /w/, so adding it to the digraph cu (for /kw/) merely reinforced, > in a redundant way, the roundness of the lips when pronouncing /kw/, in > addition to making it clear that cuh was not to be read as the syllable cu > (that is, writing cu for /co/ and thinking of the allophone [u] for the > phoneme /o/). > > Sorry for being a bit pedantic; I had envisioned a simpler comment when I > started writing this post. > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 20 23:33:24 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:33:24 -0500 Subject: Some grammar doubts Message-ID: Michael's comment made me read over what I had written in my second post and I see that the last part is a bit sloppy. Here it is again, in a more comprehensible form (I hope). What I really wanted to say is that the letter h in the sequence cuh is probably superfluous. I suspect some colonial period authors added it because uh was used for /w/, so adding the letter h to the digraph cu (for /kw/) merely reinforced, in a redundant way, the roundness of the lips when pronouncing /kw/. If in traditional Nahuatl spelling (derived from Spanish spelling) c was used to represent /k/ before the vowels /a/, /o/, and /u/, and uh was used for /w/ in syllable-final position, then cuh was a reasonable way to write the phoneme that some modern linguists represent, in a similar fashion, with /kw/ (superscript w). Thus cu, uc, and cuh all represent the phoneme /kw/. E-mail works faster then my mind. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 21 04:51:53 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:51:53 -0400 Subject: Some grammar doubts In-Reply-To: <002501ca21ee$9cbac7a0$d63056e0$@net.mx> Message-ID: Quoting David Wright : > > E-mail works faster then my mind. David, I can relate! My email seems to have a mind of its own, and *then* my mind generally kicks in after I've pressed "Send message". Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 21 07:35:51 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:35:51 +0200 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, I noticed that the question of Nahuatl terms beginning with a:l- 'water' has come up. This is probably a remnant of a juxtaposition of a:tl (freestanding) with a second term, either a two-part nominal phrase such as (in) a:tl (in) tepe:tl 'water and mountain', that is, 'community', etc., or an original sequence of other nature (noun + verb-derived locative), as in a number of toponyms. Cf. personal names such as (also )and (also ). Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 21 08:13:09 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:13:09 +0200 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, David Wright has referred to the use of spellings such as tecuhtli 'lord' by "phonemically naive authors". I guess I must be one of them. I do wish we could just acknowledge the validity of variant spellings, provided such spellings are consistent and predictable. Ever since Andrews revolutionized Nahuatl studies back in the '70s those learning on Nahuatl have been subjected to charges that they are naive, ignorant, or colonial-minded simply because they use for /kw/. Andrews himself is largely responsible for this dogmatic stance. He has fulminated against this spelling and has even had the chutzpah to deplore Tezozomoc's alleged lack of an elegant Nahuatl style. Although even princes of the house of Tenochtitlan were subject to the same deficits in character and skill that we are, it still seems amazing that a non-native speaker (or speaker at all?) of Nahuatl, let alone Classical Nahuatl, for which there are no native speakers left, would dare to utter such a pronouncement. Are we really that far along that we can dare make such statements? As for tecuhtli (te:cuhtli), David has rightly mentioned that there are dialect variants. Spellings in Classical and Colonial-period texts such as and reflect this. We find the latter in the common term 'Your (lit. 'Our') Lordship', 'Our Lord'. If, however, we rail against the devices and for syllable-final /kw/, we should keep in mind that this is like railing against the use of German for a single phoneme in, e.g., no less a word than Deutsch 'German'. These are simply spelling conventons, no more, no less, but conventions with a long tradition. The problem lies not with the use of a digraph for but with the lack of attention given to the statement given in standard grammars of Classical Nahuatl that there is no /u/ vowel in the language. Thus, *all* instances of in spellings must be signalling something else, as in , , and, of course, the now shibboleth-like . Fran Karttunen, whose dictionary and other work I greatly admire, criticizes the use of in her dictionary, following Andrews' statement that those who use simply show their ignorance of Nahuatl. But we shouldn't forget: just as beginners (and non-learners) are prone to pronounce as tay-KU-tli, so too are they likely to pronounce as tay-UK-tli. These are the things one learns to avoid early in the study of any language and its conventions. I remember a well-known art historian from the U.S. Northeast once pronouncing Xipe as ZAI-pee (ZAI as in sigh) and Tezcatlipoca as Tez-kat-LI-po-ka, with the as in English. Yes, I know, but she didn't profess to have studied the language. Should we change the spellings to help her and others avoid these mistakes in future. If so, to whose spellings? Phonemic spellings with single graphs also need to be learned before they can be correctly pronounced. So let's stop being pedantic and criticizing other people's preferences if consistently applied and hallowed by tradition (including by several members of the Motecuhzoma family). Otherwise let's get rid of all the digraphs abounding in the spelling sanctioned by Andrews for Nahuatl. It's not a religion, after all! Best wishes, Gordon > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:27:59 -0500 > From: "David Wright" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Some grammar doubts > > P.S. I carelessly hit the send button before adding the long vowel marks > (:). They're not essential to the matter being discussed, but for the sake > of accuracy here goes the message again with the (probable) long vowels > marked. > > ************************************************* > > People pretty well answered Susana's questions. I just have one more > comment > to add. In the standard enhanced traditional orthography used by Andrews, > Karttunen, Bierhorst, and others, the letter h can be a glottal stop /?/, > or > it can be used to write the phoneme /w/, when it appears in the digraphs > hu > (at the beginning of a syllable) and uh (at the end of a syllable). All of > that was explained by Jesse. What I want to add is that in some colonial > Nahuatl manuscripts we find the sequence cuh, apparently used to write the > phoneme /kw/ (like /k/ produced with rounded lips), often written with the > digraphs cu (at the beginning of a syllable) and uc (at the end of a > syllable). In colonial practice cu and cuh were also used at the end of a > syllable instead of uc. One very prominent example is tecuhtli (which > would > be written te:uctli in the enhanced traditional orthography used by > Andrews, > Karttunen, and Bierhorst, being the phonemic sequence /te:kwtli/, where > the > /kw/ is one phoneme as described above). This word, when used in compound > nouns preceding other morphemes, is reduced to the root te:uc- /te:kw/. > Examples of this are Mote:uczo:ma /mote:kwso:ma/, the name of two tenochca > lords, and Tla:lte:uctli /tla:lte:kwtli/, a terrestrial deity. These names > can be found in colonial documents (and even in modern academical texts > written by phonetically naive authors) written as Motecuhzoma and > Tlaltecuhtli, giving the false impression that they contain the syllable > /cuh/, when in realty the sequence cuh is nothing more than the phoneme > /kw/. > > This matter has been discussed on this list in past years, and the matter > is > complicated somewhat by the existence in a few modern varieties of Nahuatl > of the form /te:kohtli/ (or something like that), sometimes written > tecuhtli > (there is no vowel /u/ in colonial Nahuatl except as an allophone or > pronunciation variant of /o/), for example in Milpa Alta, D.F. John > Sullivan > provided a similar example from contemporary Huastecan Nahuatl, if I > remember correctly. Karttunen suggested on this list that these forms may > be > "spelling pronunciations" influenced by traditional conventions in written > texts, but as far as I could see the matter was not resolved to > everybody's > satisfaction. > > What I really wanted to say is that the letter h in the sequence cuh is > probably superfluous. I suspect colonial authors added it because uh was > used for /w/, so adding it to the digraph cu (for /kw/) merely reinforced, > in a redundant way, the roundness of the lips when pronouncing /kw/, in > addition to making it clear that cuh was not to be read as the syllable cu > (that is, writing cu for /co/ and thinking of the allophone [u] for the > phoneme /o/). > > Sorry for being a bit pedantic; I had envisioned a simpler comment when I > started writing this post. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 08:53:51 2009 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:53:51 +0000 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: <49238.82.54.176.143.1250842389.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: ?--- On Thu, 20/8/09, Susana Moraleda wrote: ?>?? 1 - I found NOCXI and NOCXIUH for "my foot". Which one is correct? ?>?? 2 - Should the H be pronounced as in English? Many people in Mexico do not ?>?? pronounce it, while some others do. Nahuatl final -uh after a vowel is pronounced like English "w" in "wet". >? 3 - ALTEPETL comes from water and hill. I can understand the "hill" part and >? the A for "water", but why do we have an extra L? "a_ltepe_tl" (_ = long vowel) started as two separate nouns" a_tl tepe_tl" = "it is water [and] it is a hill" (becuse a village needs water to drink and to irrigate with, and a hill to defend itself from enemies on), and the consonant sequence -tlt- changed by sandhi effect to -lt- . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandhi Citlalyani. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From macehual08 at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 22:22:23 2009 From: macehual08 at gmail.com (macehual08 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:22:23 -0400 Subject: veintena Message-ID: Hello,Could anyone tell me who coined the term "veintena" to describe the 18 "months" of the xihuitl "calendar"? Or anything about how or when it came into scholarly use? Alternatively, do you know who among the earliest chroniclers used the term? (Sahag?n, for example, seems mostly to use the term "mes.") Or, does anyone know the Nahua equivalent? (I've read in several places that the term is unknown.) Thanks. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 21 16:41:40 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:41:40 -0500 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl In-Reply-To: <49222.82.54.176.143.1250840151.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: The same thought crossed my mind, Gordon, intertwined with the memory of Coatlichan, (Coatl Ichan), "the snake his house" ("house of the snake"), often written as one word but evidently two, because of the first element conserving its absolutive prefix. As for altepetl, together with the two examples you provide of /tl/ + /t/ > /lt/, it looks like we can add this to our list of regular (albeit scarce) morphophonological changes. Andrews lists most of these changes, but I think he missed this one. I would be most grateful if you could provide documental references for Xihuiltemoc and Ihuiltemoc, to nail this down. One word doesn't make a rule, but with three I think it's worth going for. I'd like to add this to the section on morphophonology in the second edition of my book Lectura del N?huatl. I promise to cite your post. (The first edition has a few citations of Nahuat-l posts too). Listeros: what do you think? Saludos, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Gordon Whittaker Enviado el: viernes, 21 de agosto de 2009 02:36 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl Hi everyone, I noticed that the question of Nahuatl terms beginning with a:l- 'water' has come up. This is probably a remnant of a juxtaposition of a:tl (freestanding) with a second term, either a two-part nominal phrase such as (in) a:tl (in) tepe:tl 'water and mountain', that is, 'community', etc., or an original sequence of other nature (noun + verb-derived locative), as in a number of toponyms. Cf. personal names such as (also Xihuitltemoc>)and (also ). Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 21 16:58:06 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:58:06 -0500 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: <49238.82.54.176.143.1250842389.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Gordon: I too have published papers with the cuh for /kw/ spelling, and have taught students to say mo-te-cu-so-ma instead of moc-te-su-ma, back when I was phonetically more naive than today. I'm grateful to Andrews, Kartunnen, Campbell, Lockhart, et al. for showing me the way to Carochi and taking me beyond the seminal but dated Garibay-Sullivan school and closer to the phonological essence of early colonial Nahuatl. Of course, anyone can spell things however they want (unless an editor gets in their way). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cdberry at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:08:18 2009 From: cdberry at gmail.com (Craig Berry) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:08:18 -0700 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: <49238.82.54.176.143.1250842389.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 01:13, Gordon Whittaker wrote: [snip] > and Tezcatlipoca as Tez-kat-LI-po-ka, with the as in English. I'm a relative novice, so please humor me. Other than the misplaced syllable emphasis, what's wrong with that rendering? Using informal phonetics, I'd render Tezcatlipoca as something like "tez-kah-tli-PO-cah", with a secondary stress on the first syllable. My 'z' would be as in English. How wide of the mark am I? -- Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ "Lots of things in the universe don?t solve any problems, and nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cdberry at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:22:55 2009 From: cdberry at gmail.com (Craig Berry) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:22:55 -0700 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:11, Mizton Pixan wrote: > The "Z" in "Tezcatlipoca" should be pronounced /s/. Is there any pronunciation difference between that 'z' and the 's' in "mescal"? -- Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ "Lots of things in the universe don?t solve any problems, and nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From nekopixan at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:11:10 2009 From: nekopixan at gmail.com (Mizton Pixan) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:11:10 -0500 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: <8dee73060908211008j58e3a9e5i9922facc6cc64de5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The "Z" in "Tezcatlipoca" should be pronounced /s/. On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Craig Berry wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 01:13, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > [snip] > > and Tezcatlipoca as Tez-kat-LI-po-ka, with the as in English. > > I'm a relative novice, so please humor me. Other than the misplaced > syllable emphasis, what's wrong with that rendering? Using informal > phonetics, I'd render Tezcatlipoca as something like > "tez-kah-tli-PO-cah", with a secondary stress on the first syllable. > My 'z' would be as in English. How wide of the mark am I? > > -- > Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > "Lots of things in the universe don?t solve any problems, and > nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Si la vida te da la espalda... ag?rrale las nalgas. If life turns its back on you... grab its butt. Si la vie te tourne le dos... saisis lui les fesses. Wenn das Leben dir den R?cken zukehrt... ergreif seinen Po. Se la vita ti volta le spalle... afferragli il sedere. ???????????... ???????? Intla in nemiliztli mitzneci icuetlapan... xquitzqui itzin :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 21 17:32:50 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:32:50 +0200 Subject: Mes, veintena and trecena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Paul, We do actually have a Classical Nahuatl term for 'month'. It's the same as the one for 'moon': me:tztli. As for the origin of veintena, good question! I, too, would like to know who first used trecena and veintena in a Mesoamerican sense. Best, Gordon > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:22:23 -0400 > From: "macehual08 at gmail.com" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] veintena > > Hello,Could anyone tell me who coined the term "veintena" to describe the > 18 > "months" of the xihuitl "calendar"? Or anything about how or when it came > into scholarly use? > > Alternatively, do you know who among the earliest chroniclers used the > term? > (Sahag?n, for example, seems mostly to use the term "mes.") > > Or, does anyone know the Nahua equivalent? (I've read in several places > that > the term is unknown.) > > Thanks. > Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 21 17:37:48 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:37:48 +0200 Subject: Nahuatl as in In-Reply-To: <8dee73060908211022h34a04d27y3fc7b7f6e3bd9eba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Craig, No. Wherever you see a Nahuatl you can safely pronounce it /s/. , on the other hand, in a Classical Nahuatl text is just another way of writing (as in English ). > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:11, Mizton Pixan wrote: >> The "Z" in "Tezcatlipoca" should be pronounced /s/. > > Is there any pronunciation difference between that 'z' and the 's' in > "mescal"? > > Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cdberry at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:54:32 2009 From: cdberry at gmail.com (Craig Berry) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:54:32 -0700 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:38, Mizton Pixan wrote: > No, there is no difference. Actually Craig, the /z/ sound doesn't exist in Thank you. I'd been giving the 'z' a bit more of a buzz sound...I'll unlearn that habit now. -- Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ "Lots of things in the universe don?t solve any problems, and nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Aug 21 18:11:30 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 20:11:30 +0200 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: sources; Cuauhtinchan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David, Oops! You caught me with my pants down! I'm travelling in Italy right now, so my access to sources is rather limited for the next couple of weeks. I think Xihuiltemoc is in Ixtlilxochitl, not that that helps much, given the garbled form of the surviving manuscripts. But I'm pretty sure it occurs in bona fide Nahuatl texts of the 16th century. Since the name is a prominent elite name, it is found in a variety of sources. There are actually a number of additional examples of becoming in the literature, always spanning word boundaries, so it is indeed, as you say, a sandhi phenomenon. Perhaps someone hovering in cyberspace can help us out here with further examples. The place names Alpoyeccan and Almoloyan seem to be construed as A:tl Poyecca:n 'Where is Water Is Salty' and A:tl Molo:yya:n 'Where the Water Swirls'. These contrast with the more common construction noun + i:-possessive+verbstem+locative (e.g. Atlicalaquiyan, which is properly speaking two words). As you rightly point out, Coatlichan is a juxtaposition of two words, not a compound. Cuauhtinchan is a another nice example of partial assimilation of freestanding words -- standing for Cua:uh-tin I:n-ch:an 'Home of the Eagles'. Best, Gordon > Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:41:40 -0500 > From: "David Wright" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl > > The same thought crossed my mind, Gordon, intertwined with the memory of > Coatlichan, (Coatl Ichan), "the snake his house" ("house of the snake"), > often written as one word but evidently two, because of the first element > conserving its absolutive prefix. > > As for altepetl, together with the two examples you provide of /tl/ + /t/ > > > /lt/, it looks like we can add this to our list of regular (albeit scarce) > morphophonological changes. Andrews lists most of these changes, but I > think > he missed this one. I would be most grateful if you could provide > documental > references for Xihuiltemoc and Ihuiltemoc, to nail this down. One word > doesn't make a rule, but with three I think it's worth going for. I'd like > to add this to the section on morphophonology in the second edition of my > book Lectura del N?huatl. I promise to cite your post. (The first edition > has a few citations of Nahuat-l posts too). Listeros: what do you think? > > Saludos, > > David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 21 18:21:24 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:21:24 -0500 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: sources; Cuauhtinchan In-Reply-To: <51501.79.7.185.22.1250878290.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Thanks, Gordon, I'm working on this right now and your input is most useful. -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Gordon Whittaker Enviado el: viernes, 21 de agosto de 2009 01:12 p.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: sources; Cuauhtinchan Dear David, Oops! You caught me with my pants down! I'm travelling in Italy right now, so my access to sources is rather limited for the next couple of weeks. I think Xihuiltemoc is in Ixtlilxochitl, not that that helps much, given the garbled form of the surviving manuscripts. But I'm pretty sure it occurs in bona fide Nahuatl texts of the 16th century. Since the name is a prominent elite name, it is found in a variety of sources. There are actually a number of additional examples of becoming in the literature, always spanning word boundaries, so it is indeed, as you say, a sandhi phenomenon. Perhaps someone hovering in cyberspace can help us out here with further examples. The place names Alpoyeccan and Almoloyan seem to be construed as A:tl Poyecca:n 'Where is Water Is Salty' and A:tl Molo:yya:n 'Where the Water Swirls'. These contrast with the more common construction noun + i:-possessive+verbstem+locative (e.g. Atlicalaquiyan, which is properly speaking two words). As you rightly point out, Coatlichan is a juxtaposition of two words, not a compound. Cuauhtinchan is a another nice example of partial assimilation of freestanding words -- standing for Cua:uh-tin I:n-ch:an 'Home of the Eagles'. Best, Gordon _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From nekopixan at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:38:48 2009 From: nekopixan at gmail.com (Mizton Pixan) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:38:48 -0500 Subject: On te:cuhtli and other alleged sins In-Reply-To: <8dee73060908211022h34a04d27y3fc7b7f6e3bd9eba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No, there is no difference. Actually Craig, the /z/ sound doesn't exist in Nahuatl On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Craig Berry wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:11, Mizton Pixan wrote: > > The "Z" in "Tezcatlipoca" should be pronounced /s/. > > Is there any pronunciation difference between that 'z' and the 's' in > "mescal"? > > -- > Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ > "Lots of things in the universe don?t solve any problems, and > nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll > -- Si la vida te da la espalda... ag?rrale las nalgas. If life turns its back on you... grab its butt. Si la vie te tourne le dos... saisis lui les fesses. Wenn das Leben dir den R?cken zukehrt... ergreif seinen Po. Se la vita ti volta le spalle... afferragli il sedere. ???????????... ???????? Intla in nemiliztli mitzneci icuetlapan... xquitzqui itzin :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 21 19:37:22 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:37:22 -0500 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: sources; Cuauhtinchan Message-ID: The garbled transmission happens when I copy and paste text into an e-mail message. Here it goes again in Western Europe Windows codeset. *************************************************** Muy estimados listeros: I wrote up the /tl/ > /l/ sandhi bit for the second edition of Lectura del N?huatl, based on Gordon's contributions, substituting one of his examples for another (Alpopoca) for which I was able to find documentation. I'm reproducing it below (with colons instead of macrons and removing the cursives I use for the traditional "Franciscan" spellings). Please let me know if you have any suggestions. Saludos, David P.S. The little vertical lines are a personal convention to mark the Andrews/Karttunen/Bierhorst spelling system, which I like to call in Spanish "tradicional fon?mico". **************************************************** Hay algunos casos en los cuales se unen dos sustantivos y el primero, de manera excepcional, conserva el sufijo absolutivo tl |tl| (pues lo usual es que ?ste se elimina para formar un sustantivo compuesto); cuando el segundo sustantivo empieza con fonemas como |t|, |p| o |m|, el fonema |tl| del primer elemento se convierte en |l|: ? |tl| + |t| > |lt|; ? |tl| + |p| > |lp|; ? |tl| + |m| > |lm|. Un ejemplo de lo anterior que aparece a menudo en los textos novohispanos es la palabra altepetl, ?se?or?o/pueblo?; tambi?n sucede con algunos antrop?nimos (en los ejemplos segundo y tercero) y top?nimos (en el cuarto ejemplo). ? altepetl |a:ltepe:tl| (|a:tl| + |tepe:tl| (|tl| + |t| > |lt|)); ? Xihuiltemoc |xi:huilte:mo:c| (|xi:huitl| + |te:mo:| + |c| (|tl| + |t| > |lt|)); ? Alpopoca |a:lpopo:ca| (|a:tl| + |popo:ca| (|tl| + |p| > |lp|)); ? Almoloyan |a:lmolo:ya:n| (|a:tl| + (|molo:ni| ? |i|) (|n| + |y| > |y|) + |y?n| (|tl| + |m| > |lm)).* **************************************************** * Gordon Whittaker, comunicaciones a la lista de correo electr?nico Nahuat-l, 21 de agosto de 2009; v?anse: Archives of Nahuat-l, sin fecha; Nahuatl, sin fecha. Es posible que el segundo ejemplo se haya escrito con |i|, duraci?n corta, dependiendo del significado del nombre; v?ase Karttunen, 1992: 324. Opt? por |xi:huilte:mo:c| porque as? el nombre significar?a ?descendi? el cometa?, que parece ser m?s probable que |xihuilte:mo:c|, ?descendi? el a?o/grama/piedra verde?, aunque no puedo eliminar estas ?ltimas posibilidades como hip?tesis alternativas. Altepetl es registrado por Molina (1998c: II, 4r) y aparece en un sinn?mero de fuentes novohispanos. El antrop?nimo Xihuiltemoc (escrito tambi?n como Xihuitltemoc) aparece en los escritos del cronista texcocano Alva Ixtlilx?chitl (1977: I, 412; II, 144). Sobre Alpopoca (tambi?n escrito Apopoca y Atl Popoca) y Almoyolan, v?ase Bierhorst, 1985: 36, 45, 217). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sat Aug 22 07:29:52 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 09:29:52 +0200 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: more combinations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David, Here are some more combinations you could add: /tl/ + /ch/ > /lch/ e.g. a:lchichi:c 'bitter water' /tl/ + /s/ > /ls/ e.g. a:lcece:c 'cold water' If I recall correctly, at least one of these is in Sahagun. This suggests there was a general rule that in lexicalized phrases /tl/ + /C/ (for any consonant) across a word boundary could become /lC/. Whether this included glides remains to be seen. By the way, there's a minor typo (a case of methatesis) in the last line of your text as given below: Almoyolan for Almoloyan. Where is your book 'Lecturas del Nahuatl' going to be published? And what does it contain? Sounds like very interesting reading. Best wishes, Gordon > Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:26:59 -0500 > From: "David Wright" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: sources; Cuauhtinchan > Muy estimados listeros: > > I wrote up the /tl/ > /l/ sandhi bit for the second edition of Lectura del > N?huatl, based on Gordon's contributions, substituting one of his examples > for another (Alpopoca) for which I was able to find documentation. I'm > reproducing it below (with colons instead of macrons and removing the > cursives I use for the traditional "Franciscan" spellings). Please let me > know if you have any suggestions. > > Saludos, > > David > > P.S. The little vertical lines are a personal convention to mark the > Andrews/Karttunen/Bierhorst spelling system, which I like to call in > Spanish "tradicional fon?mico". > > **************************************************** > Hay algunos casos en los cuales se unen dos sustantivos y el primero, de > manera excepcional, conserva el sufijo absolutivo tl |tl| (pues lo usual > es que ?ste se elimina para formar un sustantivo compuesto); cuando el > segundo sustantivo empieza con fonemas como |t|, |p| o |m|, el fonema |tl| > del primer elemento se convierte en |l|: > > ? |tl| + |t| > |lt|; > ? |tl| + |p| > |lp|; > ? |tl| + |m| > |lm|. > > Un ejemplo de lo anterior que aparece a menudo en los textos novohispanos > es la palabra altepetl, ?se?or?o/pueblo?; tambi?n sucede con algunos > antrop?nimos (en los ejemplos segundo y tercero) y top?nimos (en el cuarto > ejemplo). > > ? altepetl |a:ltepe:tl| (|a:tl| + |tepe:tl| (|tl| + |t| > |lt|)); > ? Xihuiltemoc |xi:huilte:mo:c| (|xi:huitl| + |te:mo:| + |c| (|tl| + |t| > > |lt|)); > ? Alpopoca |a:lpopo:ca| (|a:tl| + |popo:ca| (|tl| + |p| > |lp|)); > ? Almoloyan |a:lmolo:ya:n| (|a:tl| + (|molo:ni| ? |i|) (|n| + |y| > |y|) + > |y?n| (|tl| + |m| > |lm)).* > > **************************************************** > * Gordon Whittaker, comunicaciones a la lista de correo electr?nico > Nahuat-l, 21 de agosto de 2009; v?anse: Archives of Nahuat-l, sin fecha; > Nahuatl, sin fecha. Es posible que el segundo ejemplo se haya escrito con > |i|, duraci?n corta, dependiendo del significado del nombre; v?ase > Karttunen, 1992: 324. Opt? por |xi:huilte:mo:c| porque as? el nombre > significar?a ?descendi? el cometa?, que parece ser m?s probable que > |xihuilte:mo:c|, ?descendi? el a?o/grama/piedra verde?, aunque no puedo > eliminar estas ?ltimas posibilidades como hip?tesis alternativas. Altepetl > es registrado por Molina (1998c: II, 4r) y aparece en un sinn?mero de > fuentes novohispanos. El antrop?nimo Xihuiltemoc (escrito tambi?n como > Xihuitltemoc) aparece en los escritos del cronista texcocano Alva > Ixtlilx?chitl (1977: I, 412; II, 144). Sobre Alpopoca (tambi?n escrito > Apopoca y Atl Popoca) y Almoyolan, v?ase Bierhorst, 1985: 36, 45, 217). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 22 16:52:15 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:52:15 -0400 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: more combinations In-Reply-To: <49232.82.50.117.212.1250926192.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Quoting Gordon Whittaker : > By the way, there's a minor typo (a case of methatesis) in the last line > of your text > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > Metathesis upon metathesis, the gateway to understanding! :-) Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 22 17:59:06 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:59:06 -0500 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: more combinations Message-ID: Thanks, Gordon. I'll look for these and try to integrate them into the text. Once I deal with this and any other feedback that may come up on this list, I'll post the new version for a final review. At any rate, I see that I'll have to expand the list of consonants that affect /tl/ to any consonant. "Lexicalized phrase" is a good, concise way of referring to these kinds of pieces of the verbal stream, which seem to be right on the somewhat blurry border between what we call "words" and "phrases". The first edition of Lectura del Nahuatl was published in late 2007 by the Instituto Nacional de Lenguas Ind?genas in Mexico City. It is distributed free but of course the folks at the INALI want to make sure that it gets into the hands of people that would really use it, so they ask for a letter, preferably on institutional letterhead, requesting a copy or copies and specifying what one wants them for. Going to the INALI offices in Mexico City is the best way to obtain the book. I understand that the federal budget crisis has severely affected the INALI in recent months, so it might be difficult for them to mail copies. But I can't speak for them. Contact information can be found on their website (http://www.inali.gob.mx/). There's also a brief description of this book and many others in the *Publicaciones* section of the same site. I'll copy and paste the contents of the book below. Oh, I should mention that there are a lot of typos and such, so anyone wanting to use the book as a tool for translating of teaching should write to me and get the latest version of the Fe de Erratas. The forthcoming (I hope) second edition has been corrected and expanded and still needs some work before I send it to potential publishers. My plan is to find a commercial publisher with a good distribution network, including on-line sales. Saludos, David Here's the title and table of contents: Lectura del n?huatl: fundamentos para la traducci?n de los textos en n?huatl del periodo Novohispano Temprano Contenido 1. Consideraciones preliminares 11 1.1. Caracter?sticas del presente libro 11 1.2. El n?huatl 13 1.2.1. Relaciones gen?ticas 14 1.2.2. Lenguas y dialectos 17 1.2.3. Migraciones nahuas 21 2. Fuentes descriptivas 25 2.1. Diccionarios 25 2.1.1. El vocabulario de Molina (1571) 26 2.1.2. El diccionario de Sim?on (1885) 30 2.1.3. El diccionario de Karttunen (1983) 32 2.1.4. El diccionario de Wolf (2003) 33 2.1.5. Otras fuentes l?xicas 34 2.2. Gram?ticas 37 2.2.1. Obras novohispanas 38 2.2.2. Siglo xix 41 2.2.3. Siglos xx y xxi 42 3. Fonolog?a 46 3.1. Ortograf?a 46 3.2. Vocales 57 3.3. Semiconsonantes 58 3.4. Consonantes 59 3.5. S?labas 62 3.6. El acento 63 3.7. Reglas sobre los cambios fonol?gicos 64 3.7.1. Consonantes largas 64 3.7.2. Asimilaci?n 65 3.7.3. Disimilaci?n 71 3.7.4. Otros cambios conson?nticos 72 3.7.5. Elisi?n voc?lica 73 3.7.6. Acortamiento de vocales largas 74 4. Morfolog?a nominal 76 4.1. Los sustantivos: inflexiones b?sicas 76 4.1.1. Formas absolutivas 76 4.1.2. El plural 78 4.1.3. Forma pose?da 79 4.1.4. Poseedores 81 4.2. Pronombres 82 4.2.1. Independientes 82 4.2.2. Indefinidos 84 4.2.3. Interrogativos 84 4.3. Posposiciones y sufijos locativos 85 4.4. Adjetivos 98 4.4.1. Los verbos denominativos con -tic y -huic 99 4.4.2. Los sustantivos compuestos 100 4.4.3. Pseudosufijos de actitud 100 4.5. N?meros 106 4.5.1. N?meros cardinales 106 4.5.2. Clasificadores num?ricos 112 4.6. Sustantivos derivados 114 4.6.1. Abstractos 114 4.6.2. Concretos 114 4.6.3. Deverbales 115 4.6.4. Compuestos 122 5. Morfolog?a verbal 124 5.1. Los verbos: inflexiones b?sicas 124 5.1.1. Prefijos de sujeto 124 5.1.2. Sufijos plurales 126 5.1.3. Prefijos de objeto 126 5.1.4. Prefijos de reflexividad 129 5.1.5. Afijos de tiempo 132 5.2. Las clases de verbos y la formaci?n del pret?rito 135 5.2.1. Primera clase 135 5.2.2. Segunda clase 136 5.2.3. Tercera clase 137 5.2.4. Cuarta clase 138 5.3. Verbos irregulares 139 5.4. Voces pasiva e impersonal 147 5.5. Tres modos verbales 150 5.5.1. Condicional 150 5.5.2. Optativo 150 5.5.3. Propositivo 152 5.6. Prefijos direccionales 154 5.7. Verbos derivados 155 5.7.1. Causativos 155 5.7.2. Aplicativos 157 5.7.3. Honor?ficos 159 5.7.4. Denominativos 160 5.7.5. Compuestos 167 6. Part?culas 171 6.1. La part?cula in 171 6.2. La part?cula ca 172 6.3. Part?culas negativas 173 6.4. Part?culas demostrativas 175 6.5. Adverbios 177 6.5.1. Locativos 177 6.5.2. Temporales 181 7. Sintaxis 189 7.1. Palabras-oraci?n y oraciones sin verbo 189 7.2. El orden de las palabras 191 7.3. Las part?culas como indicadores de cl?usulas 193 8. La traducci?n 195 9. Met?foras 198 9.1. Las fuentes 198 9.2. Ejemplos del C?dice florentino 201 9.2.1. Teoatl tlachinolli 202 9.2.2. Iiyo itlatol 205 9.2.3. Cuauhyotica oceloyotica 207 9.2.4. Intlil intlapal inhuehuetque 211 9.2.5. Imamox intlacuilol 214 10. Glosas del Mapa de Huamantla y el C?dice de Huichapan 216 10.1. Mapa de Huamantla 216 10.2. C?dice de Huichapan 225 Referencias 233 Glosario 258 ?ndice de afijos 268 A. Prefijos 269 B. Sufijos, pseudosufijos y posposiciones 270 C. Ligaduras 273 -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Gordon Whittaker Enviado el: s?bado, 22 de agosto de 2009 02:30 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: more combinations Dear David, Here are some more combinations you could add: /tl/ + /ch/ > /lch/ e.g. a:lchichi:c 'bitter water' /tl/ + /s/ > /ls/ e.g. a:lcece:c 'cold water' If I recall correctly, at least one of these is in Sahagun. This suggests there was a general rule that in lexicalized phrases /tl/ + /C/ (for any consonant) across a word boundary could become /lC/. Whether this included glides remains to be seen. By the way, there's a minor typo (a case of methatesis) in the last line of your text as given below: Almoyolan for Almoloyan. Where is your book 'Lecturas del Nahuatl' going to be published? And what does it contain? Sounds like very interesting reading. Best wishes, Gordon _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 22 20:24:20 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:24:20 -0500 Subject: On a:l- as in a:ltepe:tl: more combinations Message-ID: Listeros: I couldn't find Gordon's latest examples of /tl/ + /C/ > /lC/ in colonial Nahuatl sources, but I spotted a couple others with different consonants in the Cantares Mexicanos and the Codex Mendoza. The /atl/ > /al/ change doesn't seem to be very frequent, as a quick check of several indexes to early colonial Nahuatl documents revealed. Here's the final text for the morphophonological rule we're working on, unless anybody has further suggestions: ***************************************** Hay casos en los cuales se unen dos sustantivos y el primero, de manera excepcional, conserva el sufijo absolutivo -tl |tl| (pues lo usual es que ?ste se elimina para formar un sustantivo compuesto). Esto sucede de manera especial con las frases lexicalizadas (es decir, convertidas en palabras). En estos casos, cuando el segundo sustantivo empieza con una consonante, el fonema |tl| del primer elemento se puede convertir, de manera opcional, en |l|: ? |tl| + |t| > |lt|; ? |tl| + |p| > |lp|; ? |tl| + |m| > |lm|; ? |tl| + |ch| > |lch|; ? |tl| + |hu| > |lhu|.* Un ejemplo de lo anterior, que aparece a menudo en los textos novohispanos, es la palabra altepetl, ?pueblo/se?or?o? (literalmente ?el agua, el cerro?). Tambi?n encontramos esta clase de asimilaci?n regresiva parcial en algunos antrop?nimos (en los ejemplos segundo y tercero) y top?nimos (en los ejemplos cuarto y quinto): ? altepetl |a:ltepe:tl| (|a:tl| + |tepe:tl| (|tl| + |t| > |lt|)); ? Xihuiltemoc |xi:huilte:mo:c| (|xi:huitl| + |te:mo:| (|tl| + |t| > |lt|) + |c|); ? Alpopoca |a:lpopo:ca| (|a:tl| + |popo:ca| (|tl| + |p| > |lp|)); ? Almoloyan |a:lmolo:ya:n| (|a:tl| + (|molo:ni| ? |i|) (|tl| + |m| > |lm) + |ya:n| (|n| + |y| > |y|)); ? Alchayahuacan |a:lchaya:huaca:n| (|a:tl| + |chaya:hua| (|tl| + |ch| > |lch|) + |ca:n|); ? Alhuexoyocan |a:lhuexo:yohca:n| (|a:tl| + (|huexo:tl| ? |tl|) (|tl| + |hu| > |lhu|) + |yoh| + |ca:n|).** * Apunto aqu? los casos que he visto hasta ahora; es probable que estos cambios sucedan tambi?n con otras consonantes que se encuentren al inicio del segundo elemento de la frase lexicalizada. ** Agradezco a Gordon Whittaker por sus sugerencias acerca de esta clase de cambios morfofon?micos y por haber aportado varios de los ejemplos que aparecen aqu? (v?anse: Gordon Whittaker, comunicaciones a la lista de correo electr?nico Nahuat-l, 21 de agosto de 2009, disponibles en Archives of Nahuat-l, sin fecha; Nahuatl, sin fecha. Es posible que el segundo ejemplo haya tenido una |i| corta en su primera s?laba, dependiendo del significado del nombre (v?ase Karttunen, 1992: 324). Opt? por |xi:huilte:mo:c| porque as? el nombre significar?a ?descendi? el cometa?, que parece ser m?s probable que |xihuilte:mo:c|, ?descendi? el a?o/grama/piedra verde?, aunque no puedo eliminar estas ?ltimas posibilidades. Altepetl es registrado por Molina (1998c: II, 4r) y aparece en un sinn?mero de fuentes novohispanas; en los Cantares mexicanos encontramos tambi?n el difrasismo ?ynatl intepetly? (in atl in tepetl, con el sonido [i] al final, sin valor sem?ntico, a manera de adorno po?tico; v?anse Bierhorst, 1985: 45, 46, 427, 429; Cantares mexicanos, 1994: 12r). El antrop?nimo Xihuiltemoc (escrito tambi?n Xihuitltemoc), aparece en los textos del cronista texcocano Alva Ixtlilx?chitl (1975, 1977: I, 412; II, 144). Sobre Alpopoca (escrito tambi?n Apopoca y Atl Popoca), Almoloyan y Alchayahuacan, v?anse Bierhorst, 1985: 36, 45, 217; Cantares mexicanos, 1994: 9r; 33v, 54v, 79v, 84r). Alhuexoyocan aparece en el C?dice mendocino (Berdan/Anawalt [editoras], 1992: 26r). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From chema at netehuile.org Sat Aug 22 19:34:52 2009 From: chema at netehuile.org (Chema Tlaquetzqui) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:34:52 +0200 Subject: Mes, veintena and trecena Message-ID: I don't know if I understood the question, but I worked programming a few Mesoamerican (Long count mostly) calendars a few months ago as part of another project and I started to use the word "score" (as in a group of 20, like "Four score and seven years ago...") for the 20- day month. When I started looking at the literature, I realized the Spanish translation (veintena) was also used. My theory is that back in the day people used the terms score/veintena as often as they do now in French. Trecena (and docena and quincena) is just an extension of that. Why use it for 18, I don't know. Maybe the inconvenience of using "deciochona" and being close to 20? Score certainly is a practical word to use in English. Chema On Aug 21, 2009, at 19:32 , Gordon Whittaker wrote: > Dear Paul, > > We do actually have a Classical Nahuatl term for 'month'. It's the > same as > the one for 'moon': me:tztli. As for the origin of veintena, good > question! I, too, would like to know who first used trecena and > veintena > in a Mesoamerican sense. > > Best, > Gordon > > >> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:22:23 -0400 >> From: "macehual08 at gmail.com" >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] veintena >> >> Hello,Could anyone tell me who coined the term "veintena" to >> describe the >> 18 >> "months" of the xihuitl "calendar"? Or anything about how or when >> it came >> into scholarly use? >> >> Alternatively, do you know who among the earliest chroniclers used >> the >> term? >> (Sahag?n, for example, seems mostly to use the term "mes.") >> >> Or, does anyone know the Nahua equivalent? (I've read in several >> places >> that >> the term is unknown.) >> >> Thanks. >> Paul > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gordon Whittaker > Professor > Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Aug 23 01:16:02 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:16:02 -0500 Subject: Mes, veintena and trecena Message-ID: "VEYNTE. Nombre numeral, latine viginti. El veynte en el juego de los bolos es el que est? fuera de los nueve del juego. Veyntena, vale lo mesmo que veynte, o veyntena parte, una de las veynte". - Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebasti?n, Tesoro de la lengua castellana o espa?ola, Madrid/M?xico, Ediciones Turner/Ediciones Turnermex, 1984, p. 996 (f. 66r y v de la ed. de 1611). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Thu Aug 27 21:40:15 2009 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:40:15 +0200 Subject: FW: Nahuatl, trecena and veintena Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Baert Georges [mailto:lahunik.62 at skynet.be] Namens Georges R. Baert (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Verzonden: donderdag 27 augustus 2009 23:31 Aan: 'macehual08 at gmail.com' Onderwerp: Nahuatl, trecena and veintena Dear Sir: The month of 20 days is in Nahuatl: Meztli. Trecena and veintena, derived from the Spanish trece and viente, are rather modern terms used by Mesoamericanists. No friar of the Post-Conquest period used this terms. The Nahuatl word for trecena was no longer known, neither for the term veintena. No record of the veintena survives in a Central Mexican manuscript made before the Conquest, because it did not play the same role in divination, that the trecena, as part of the tonalpohualli did. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sat Aug 29 07:47:27 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:47:27 +0200 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Georges Baert, Your Nahuatl "meztli" is close, but not quite right. It's actually a common error in popular literature based on Spanish mes. The real Nahuatl word is metztli, with a long /e/ vowel. It would, of course, be great if someone could inform us as to when the Spanish terms veintena and trecena are used for the first time in the precise Mesoamerican nominal context we are used to. I think we all know the basic meanings of the terms, just not yet their first occurrences as terms for Mesoamerican units of time. I would suspect Motolinia (if not Molina), but have no access to the literature from my isolated beach in Italy, so who knows. Perhaps the terms are modern, perhaps not. Best, Gordon Whittaker Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:40:15 +0200 From: Subject: Nahuatl, trecena and veintena Dear Sir: The month of 20 days is in Nahuatl: Meztli. Trecena and veintena, derived from the Spanish trece and viente, are rather modern terms used by Mesoamericanists. No friar of the Post-Conquest period used this terms. The Nahuatl word for trecena was no longer known, neither for the term veintena. No record of the veintena survives in a Central Mexican manuscript made before the Conquest, because it did not play the same role in divination, that the trecena, as part of the tonalpohualli did. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Sat Aug 29 13:02:25 2009 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:02:25 -0400 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month In-Reply-To: <1762.88.46.193.74.1251532047.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Searching on the wonderful reference source "Biblioteca Virtual Miguel de Cervantes" (http://www.cervantesvirtual.com) for "trecena" ("veintena" is too common a word to search...), the earliest occurence of the word in the Nahuatl context is from: Le?n y Gama, Antonio de (1735-1802), "Descripci?n hist?rica y cronol?gica de las dos Piedras que con ocasi?n del nuevo empedrado que se est? formando en la Plaza principal de M?xico, se hallaron en ella el a?o de 1790" (M?xico, En la Imprenta de Don Felipe de Z??iga y Ontiveros, 1792) Best, David Frye ________________________________________ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Gordon Whittaker [gwhitta at gwdg.de] Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:47 AM To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month Dear Georges Baert, Your Nahuatl "meztli" is close, but not quite right. It's actually a common error in popular literature based on Spanish mes. The real Nahuatl word is metztli, with a long /e/ vowel. It would, of course, be great if someone could inform us as to when the Spanish terms veintena and trecena are used for the first time in the precise Mesoamerican nominal context we are used to. I think we all know the basic meanings of the terms, just not yet their first occurrences as terms for Mesoamerican units of time. I would suspect Motolinia (if not Molina), but have no access to the literature from my isolated beach in Italy, so who knows. Perhaps the terms are modern, perhaps not. Best, Gordon Whittaker Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:40:15 +0200 From: Subject: Nahuatl, trecena and veintena Dear Sir: The month of 20 days is in Nahuatl: Meztli. Trecena and veintena, derived from the Spanish trece and viente, are rather modern terms used by Mesoamericanists. No friar of the Post-Conquest period used this terms. The Nahuatl word for trecena was no longer known, neither for the term veintena. No record of the veintena survives in a Central Mexican manuscript made before the Conquest, because it did not play the same role in divination, that the trecena, as part of the tonalpohualli did. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Aug 30 00:34:03 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 19:34:03 -0500 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month Message-ID: OK, you guys made me curious, so I put down the student papers I was reading and spent a couple of hours looking at sources on the central Mexican calendar. A quick check of major sources, in search of the words used to express the idea of the 18 twenty-day periods of the 365-day calendar, gave these results: 16th century - Toribio de Benavente (Motolina): "mes." - Jer?nimo de Mendieta: "mes." - Bernardino de Sahag?n (*Florentine Codex*): "metztli" (Nahuatl column), "mes" (Castilian column). - Bartolom? de las Casas: "mes." - Diego Dur?n: "mes." - Juan de Tovar: "mes." - Francisco Cervantes de Salazar: "mes." - Alonso de Zorita: "mes." - Crist?bal del Castillo (text in Nahuatl): "metztli;" we also find the words "metztlapohualli" and "cecempohualilhuitl" (he calls the thirteen-day cycles "semanas," using the Castilian term as a loanword within his Nahuatl text). 17th century - Juan de Torquemada: "mes." 18th century - Jos? Joaqu?n Granados y G?lvez: "mes", "mextli." - Lorenzo Boturini: "mes." - Mariano Fern?ndez de Echeverr?a y Veytia: "mes." - Francisco Antonio Lorenzana: "mes." - Antonio de Le?n y Gama: "mes." 19th century - Jos? Fernando Ram?rez: "mes." - Alfredo Chavero (vol. 1 of *M?xico a trav?s de los siglos*, 1884): "veintena" ("A esta veintena de d?as generalmente los autores la llaman mes, por no encontrar otro nombre que darle. Le dicen tambi?n *metztli*, que quiere decir luna, pero bien claro indica Molina que *metztli* fue aplicado nada m?s al mes europeo"). - Eduard Georg Seler (English translations published in 1904 and 1990): "chronological unit, 20 days," "eighteen twenties falsely called 'months' by the Spanish," "festival," "month." 20th century - Alfonso Caso: "mes," "veintena." - Rafael Tena: "mes," "veintena." So the first use I found of "veintena" for the central Mexican calendrical period is Chavero's, published in 1884. Interestingly, it appears together with a (rather weak) critique of the use of the term "metztli." My searches weren't exhaustive, so it's possible that authors prior to Chavero could have used "veintena" in exceptional cases (in previous post I showed that the Castilian term has been in use since at least 1611), but in their main descriptions of the calendar the word "mes" is what I found. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Aug 31 00:28:13 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:28:13 -0400 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month In-Reply-To: <000001ca2909$93896520$ba9c2f60$@net.mx> Message-ID: The time frame is accurate, I'd say. I did a quick search in JSTOR. The first citation for veintena comes in 1908 when it is cited in a review of Robelo, Diccionario de mejicanismos. The first use of trecena in scholarly articles occurred in 1900 in a piece by Bowditch in the American Anthropologist, on "The Lords of the Night." -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Aug 31 05:04:00 2009 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 01:04:00 -0400 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month In-Reply-To: <8a7aa86ca421ee19bc6ab9ed8dce9687.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: In the Florentine Codex, Book Four: CAPITULO PRIMERO Del primero signo llamado ce cipactli y de la buena fortuna que tenian los que en el nacian ansi hombres como mugeres si no la perdian por su negligencia o floxura Aqui comien%an los caracteres de cada dia que contavan por trezenas Eran treze dias en cda semana y hazian un circulo de dozientos y sesenta dias y despues tornavan al principio ***% for c cedilla Joe p.s. plis forgive the typos... Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > > The time frame is accurate, I'd say. I did a quick search in JSTOR. The > first citation for veintena comes in 1908 when it is cited in a review of > Robelo, Diccionario de mejicanismos. > > The first use of trecena in scholarly articles occurred in 1900 in a piece > by Bowditch in the American Anthropologist, on "The Lords of the Night." > > > > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President, > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mcdo0030 at umn.edu Mon Aug 31 14:07:34 2009 From: mcdo0030 at umn.edu (Kelly McDonough) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:07:34 -0500 Subject: origins of man in the Huasteca Message-ID: Piyali listeros, I have uploaded images of codexes painted and written by Idelfonso Maya Hern?ndez (Nahua) to http://kellysmcdonough.blogspot.com/ that treat the ideas of ?Origins of Man in the Huasteca.? Maya Hern?ndez (presently residing in Huejutla de Reyes) is know primarily for his plays, community theater direction, and murals, along with his pioneering efforts in the decolonization of the bilingual school teacher movement in Mexico. Saludos, Kelly Kelly McDonough University of Minnesota - Twin Cities Department of Spanish & Portuguese Studies 612/624-5529 mcdo0030 at umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Mon Aug 31 15:21:35 2009 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 08:21:35 -0700 Subject: origins of man in the Huasteca In-Reply-To: <31C52C0A30734E488416DE3E66085DB9@KELLY> Message-ID: Dear Kelly, These are incredibly beautiful!!!!! I congratulate you on bringing these artworks to the Nahuatl community. Mario I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD www.mexicayotl.net Kelly McDonough wrote: > > Piyali listeros, > > I have uploaded images of codexes painted and written by Idelfonso > Maya Hern?ndez (Nahua) to > > http://kellysmcdonough.blogspot.com/ that treat the ideas of "Origins > of Man in the Huasteca." Maya Hern?ndez (presently residing in > Huejutla de Reyes) is know primarily for his plays, community theater > direction, and murals, along with his pioneering efforts in the > decolonization of the bilingual school teacher movement in Mexico. > > Saludos, > > Kelly > > > > > > Kelly McDonough > > University of Minnesota - Twin Cities > > Department of Spanish & Portuguese Studies > > 612/624-5529 > > mcdo0030 at umn.edu > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Mon Aug 31 15:48:01 2009 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 08:48:01 -0700 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Message-ID: Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 31 16:35:37 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:35:37 -0500 Subject: Trecena, veintena and the Nahuatl term for month Message-ID: Joe's example of "trecena" in the *Florentine Codex* sent me back to the books to see the general picture regarding names for the 13-day period. Here are the results, using the same sources mentioned in my previous post on the 20-day period. In each case I just checked the main descriptions of the central Mexican calendar, so the searches were not exhaustive. 16th century - Toribio de Benavente (Motolina): "semana," "semanas de a trece d?as." - Jer?nimo de Mendieta: "trece signos." - Bernardino de Sahag?n (*Florentine Codex*): "matlatlaquilhuitl omeey motlalitiuh" (Nahuatl column), "trezena," "Algunos dizen que estos treze dias son semanas del mes y no es ansi sino numero de dias en que reina el signo o caracter" (Castilian column). (Book 4, chapter 1 and appendix.) - Bartolom? de las Casas: "la semana de trece d?as." - Diego Dur?n: "la semana de ?stos era de trece d?as." - Juan de Tovar: (he only deals with the 365-day year). - Francisco Cervantes de Salazar: (he didn't understand the structure of the tonalpohualli, failing to grasp the basic concept of 13 x 20 days). - Alonso de Zorita: "la semana era de trece d?as." - Crist?bal del Castillo (text in Nahuatl): "iz cempohualli semana matlactli omey tonatiuh iz cencensemana." 17th century - Juan de Torquemada: "trece d?as;" "algunos quisieron decir que estos trece d?as eran semanas de estos indios, pero no es as?, sino el n?mero de d?as en que reinaba el signo o car?cter que estaba al principio." 18th century - Jos? Joaqu?n Granados y G?lvez: "13 dias", "13 casas." - Lorenzo Boturini: "triadecaterida." - Mariano Fern?ndez de Echeverr?a y Veytia: "los Indios no tenian semanas, pero tenian un periodo equibalente a ellas en el uso del Kalendario: Este hera de trece dias [...];" "su semana." - Francisco Antonio Lorenzana: "triadecaterida." - Antonio de Le?n y Gama: "dividian los 260 dias en 20 trecenas, que eran ? modo de nuestras semanas." 19th century - Jos? Fernando Ram?rez: "trecenas." - Alfredo Chavero (vol. 1 of *M?xico a trav?s de los siglos*, 1884): "trecenas." - Eduard Georg Seler (English translations published in 1990): "twenty sections of thirteen days each." 20th century - Alfonso Caso: "trecena." - Rafael Tena: "trecena." So Sahag?n used "trecena" in this sense, as Joe showed us, although it wasn't in general used until 1792, in Le?n y Gama's book *Descripci?n hist?rica y cronol?gica de las dos piedras...*, becoming the usual term in 19th and 20th century texts, at least as far as the sources mentioned here will take us. Most colonial period sources use the Castilian word "semana," although some authors objected, notably Sahag?n, which explains why he preferred the more precise term "trecena". Torquemada's objection is evidently inspired by Sahag?n's. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ritamontano2002 at yahoo.com.mx Mon Aug 31 18:10:34 2009 From: ritamontano2002 at yahoo.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_Monta=FFfffff1o?=) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:10:34 -0700 Subject: trecenas, veintenas Message-ID: Estimados listeros: Acerca de la interesante discusi?n sobre la medici?n del tiempo entre los nahuatl, me parece que el libro de Michel Graulich "Ritos aztecas: las fiestas de las veintenas" es un documento muy interesante que aclara bien la forma de medir el tiempo y los ritos asociados a cada festividad. Angeles S?nchez N. Encuentra las mejores recetas en Yahoo! Cocina. http://mx.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Mon Aug 31 18:39:39 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:39:39 +0200 Subject: Some grammar doubts Message-ID: Well, thank you everybody for your enlightening explanations/comments. Things are now clearer in my mind. Susana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McCafferty" To: Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:51 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Some grammar doubts > Quoting David Wright : > > > >> >> E-mail works faster then my mind. > > > > David, I can relate! My email seems to have a mind of its own, and > *then* my mind generally kicks in after I've pressed "Send message". > > Michael > > > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl