From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Dec 1 00:50:33 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:50:33 -0500 Subject: Nuns and verbs In-Reply-To: <7DA11C66-844C-4235-9FFF-58872F10F54F@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Many thanks to Frances and Galen for their great observations on Nahuatl. I appreciate all the comments and will chew on them. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Tue Dec 1 17:00:50 2009 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 18:00:50 +0100 Subject: Nouns and verbs In-Reply-To: <4B1428D3.1020005@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Dear Michael, > Blair Rudes, the late Iroquoianist, once told me that there was a > Iroquoian language (Tuscarora, I believe, but I can't remember) > that had only around 7 bona fide nouns; everything else that we > would consider nouns were actually verbs. Oh really? That would be highly interesting!! As far as I can remember the idea of a noun-verb indistinction in Northern Iroquoian first was put forth by Hans-Jürgen Sasse more than 20 years ago (Der irokesische Sprachtyp. *Zeitschrift für Sprachwissenschaft* 7/2, 1988: 173-213), mainly using data from Cayuga -- to at least then not be very well received by Iroquoianists, basically for similar reasons already mentioned for Nahuatl. Although things in Iroquoian may be a little bit more complicated, e.g. as there are quite a few ideophones (though also surely more than just 7), e.g. Cayuga /taku:s/ "cat" and /kwiskwis/ "pig", some of which also may take some inflectional morphology, e.g. Oneida /o-hkwalí/ "bear" bearing a feminine-zoic pronominal index. Regarding Tuscarora, both Rudes and Mithun AFAIK used to be very clear about recognizing a noun-verb distinction. Please keep me posted if you found out someone of them having changed their mind. As for omnipredicativity, the mere fact that nouns at times may function predicatively does in no way imply that they always necessarily did so, see cases like Russian <èto - most> "this is a bridge", where predicativity is established by mere juxtaposition. Not even involving verbal morphology! (Of which Russian would have quite a bit, and also possibilities of denominal verb formation. So *if* it hade been required it would have been available. But it wasn't.) As for the Baraga quote, I assume this probably refers to "sentence words", as Ojibwa, like any other Algic lg., as Sasse would have put it then, does have a noun-verb distinction on all levels relevant (lexical, morphological, syntactic). All the best, Heike _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Dec 2 04:57:58 2009 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 23:57:58 -0500 Subject: first two for Joe Message-ID: John Sullivan is having trouble getting his mail through to the list and he asked me to forward his message to amehhuantzitzin. Joe ************************** Piljotzin, Here is what the IDIEZ bunch has come up for your first two words. 1. cuecuezo, nitla. a). zo:, "to pierce s.t." is transitive so the "cuecue" element has to be adverbial. b). We didn?t take into account anything built on "cuel", just "cue" c) There are a number of words that have what seems to be this "cue" element and all share the meaning of "pleating, ondulating". Here they are: cue:itl, "skirt"; cuetlaxtic, "withered"; cuetl?ni, "what a worm does when you touch it; what a fish does when it?s on land" (goes to cuecuetlaca); cuemoni, "how a far off object looks when viewed through heat waves" (goes to cuecuemoca). d). So it seems that cue(h)cuezo: might mean "to puncture s.t. repeatedly in a pleated or ondulating fashion", in other words, "to stitch s.t." 2. a:te:noa:, nitla. a). First a:te:ntli, "riverbank". b). I understand there are three kinds of -o?: the verber -o? that forms intransitive verbs like tlaxcalo?. This can?t be the one we?re looking for since a:te:no? is transitive; the -oa: used for turning Spanish verbs into Nahuatl verbs (transitive or instransitive); and the causative -o? that starts with an intransitive verb ending in -ihui/-ahui. I think the problem is that many of these causative verbs have either lost of perhaps never had the -ihui source verb. c). Here is a verb in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl that I think is analogous to a:te:no?. ce:ntla:lihui, "for things (like beans) to become scattered all over on the ground"; ce:ntla:loa:, nic., "to scatter things (by accident) al over on the ground". I think that the tla:lli root here is working in the same why that it works with tlaloc, almost in an adverbial way: to become "groundy/on the ground". d). There is probably no a:te:nihui, but it would probably mean something like "to be riverbanky/on the riverbank". And the causative a:te:noa: would be to put things (tla-) [your ass] on the riverbank. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Dec 2 16:13:33 2009 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 11:13:33 -0500 Subject: first two for Joe In-Reply-To: <20091201235758.4god4e8v0kkw04s8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: John, Thanks to you and your friends at IDIEZ for helping brainstorm on these morphology problems. The time and energy are appreciated. (Actually, that sounds like a Nahuatl impersonal ... and the appreciation is not impersonal.) Questions and comments: 1. cuetla:ni comes through as cuetl?ni and there are several other "?"s in places that look like ":" was intended. Could there be a worm in your Apple? 2. Your suggestion about "cue:itl" is very helpful! I had been hung up on considering possibilities like "cuechtli", thinking that "cuecuezo" was slightly disguised by a sibilant/affricate cluster simplification. This likely use of reduplicated "cue:itl" is consistent with other occurrences in Molina and the Florentine. 3. Your English equivalents like "what a worm does when you touch it", "how a far off object looks when viewed through heat waves", etc., sound like sitting in on one of Molina's work sessions and what ended up on his folios. More later, Joe > > Piljotzin, > Here is what the IDIEZ bunch has come up for your first two words. > 1. cuecuezo, nitla. > a). zo:, "to pierce s.t." is transitive so the "cuecue" element has to > be adverbial. > b). We didn?t take into account anything built on "cuel", just "cue" > c) There are a number of words that have what seems to be this "cue" > element and all share the meaning of "pleating, ondulating". Here they > are: cue:itl, "skirt"; cuetlaxtic, "withered"; cuetl?ni, "what a worm > does when you touch it; what a fish does when it?s on land" (goes to > cuecuetlaca); cuemoni, "how a far off object looks when viewed through > heat waves" (goes to cuecuemoca). > d). So it seems that cue(h)cuezo: might mean "to puncture s.t. > repeatedly in a pleated or ondulating fashion", in other words, "to > stitch s.t." > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Dec 2 23:48:35 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 18:48:35 -0500 Subject: zampa Joe ome itlahtol In-Reply-To: <53064A1E-7F60-4236-8714-10C4873236F0@me.com> Message-ID: motlatol onmocuacuacua Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : >> )c¢?œ·­³??™ZŠ­{~~Š?bž°¢¹, ?+>–­?€?Ÿ›ºw!??{??.¯??· >> Š?_œ¹?:>ž+ei¯³£?˜ž­?²?³?{"¶+??¶¾r????j?£?§oz¶??‰???šq?ž?Ÿ+aŠx>n???—??r?8^­??{¦m??l???«~±??·¾¶¬???©?©e???©?¨?«bž¨?j?ƒ???·¾r?_¬’*?ž¶V±¶'>«az·?Y?Z·?Š? ³?²¢??+~–­??v‡¬???V§w??£??¶Vœk?j'‹??ª?¡¸??¢‰,????š·??‡¬???§~J¢·?k>¶­???¦Šm??›§r?{?·©y«^v\¾Šš???wn•«bžŸj?¢¢Ÿ??Š???µ?²?j?¡¯§Š??»-???¶?F?u?©??­??·ž???¾½?¿¨??k>Š{kj{"¶+??¥ŠG¾¶V±q©h???{????‰"žŸ¢¿¬Šw ?¢³?{"¶+??????ž)?Zž+!??ž?5¨nj?½??{"¶+?Š?­©?¯{????Š?aj?µª?"¶šŸ?¶§²+b½?¶?ž¢Ÿ?/???y>¶¾¦º•?? «~™©?¶¬{??Š?????¯???©³??§~¶¾Š¢??½?????)?®‡¹«-y??«e??§“?©?ˆ(º?£?z>q?©b†?Š?‚?ŠG¾m??·œ¢g¾±?µ???¿¨Ÿ????¶V¥¡¯§‰?£??¯?x,??u?©~¢??‚º.??O­ «~¶¾¶V¥–/«¢‹~ ?+>Š?>Š­ ?g¾œ¾¶­?Š?"¶­•©hs?‹-?šv?¥??m??‹§w/?a{???·¾Š?®†?\¾žšµ????¢?š??žj¬¢g­†)?¤{?·¾®+?¶§“/?a{??y>w~¶¾q«¬j?{?z??{?›­? >¶V¾?«?‰?®+?¶§“?—« ªl?ª?~¢­ ???g5¨nj?™¨¥Šx>–+-5¨nj?Š?}©¬ŠŠ?i??+ƒ?šŸ?§~?š¶ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Thu Dec 3 19:31:32 2009 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 11:31:32 -0800 Subject: Quecholli as Macaw Message-ID: Listeros, Can someone cite the documentation by which “Quecholli” has become “Macaw” (Hassig's Time, History and Belief ...)? Elsewhere I’ve seen “arrow” (from Codice Ixtlilxochitl), precious feather, and of course the hoary “roseate spoonbill.” Thanks, Tom Grigsby G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria GSM: 359 0899 784 081 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Fri Dec 4 23:29:16 2009 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:29:16 -0500 Subject: Quecholli as Macaw In-Reply-To: <665391.48605.qm@web110006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here is the entry from the excellent Wimmer dictionary which I am pasting below. The description closest to Macaw, which I've highlighted, is attributed to Torquemada. ornithologie, souvent en apocope quechôl, Spatule rose d'Amérique. Launey II 162 note 14 dit : oiseau de couleur rouge ou rose, probablement un flamant. 'Pajaro 'flamenco' (Platea ajaja)'. W.Jimenez Moreno, Primeros memoriales 52. *Torquemada dans la segunda parte, p. 280, écrit : '... nombre de un Paxajo de pluma azul, y colorada, que ai en esta Tierra, en especial en unos manantiales, y ojos de Agua, que ai junto del Pueblo de Quecholac*'. Dib. Anders. II 134 note 1. Teôquechôl ou tlâuhquechôl est identifié comme Ajaia ajaja, la spatule rose d'Amérique 'roseate spoonbill' en Sah9,20. " mâ tla chichîna ia nepapan quechôl ", que les différentes spatules butinent - let all the various firebirds sip nectar. Dans une hymne chantée à l'occasion d'Atamalcualiztli. Sah2,238. Mentionné dans le répertoire poétique des fleurs et des oiseaux. Marie Sautron-Chompré. Le chant lyrique p.138 (quechol(li) ou quecholtototl). *à la forme possédée, " in mozacuan in moquechôl ", ton troupiale, ta spatule rose. S'adresse au Soleil et désigne le petit enfant qu'on lui présente. Sah6,203. " tlahtoa ia îquechôl ", sa spatule rose chante - his firebird speaks. Dans une hymne chantée à l'occasion d'Atamalcualiztli. Sah2,238. " iuhquin îquechôlhuân îzacuantôtôhuân îtlazohtôtôhuân in Tezcatlipoca ", ils étaient semblables aux spatules roses, aux troupiales, aux oiseaux précieux de Tezcatlipoca - they were like the blue cotinga the trupials, the precious bird of Tezcatlipoca. Est dit d'esclaves le jour de la fête du dieu. Sah4,34. " quihtoa in tlahtôlli îzacuanhuân, îtôtôhuân îquacholhuân in totêucyo ", le proverbe parle des troupiales, des oiseaux, des spatules roses de notre Seigneur - the proverb speak of 'the precious feathers of our lord. Sah11,54. On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:31 PM, grigsby tom wrote: > Listeros, > > Can someone cite the documentation by which “Quecholli” has become “Macaw” > (Hassig's Time, History and Belief ...)? Elsewhere I’ve seen “arrow” (from > Codice Ixtlilxochitl), precious feather, and of course the hoary “roseate > spoonbill.” > > Thanks, > > Tom Grigsby > > G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 > Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria > GSM: 359 0899 784 081 > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Dec 5 19:32:55 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 13:32:55 -0600 Subject: Quecholli as Macaw In-Reply-To: <665391.48605.qm@web110006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jesse answered the question; I’ll throw in some additional information on the “arrow” translation. The Tovar Calendar, an alphabetical-pictorial codex, reinforces the translation cited by Tom Grigsby from the Ixtlilxochitl Codex. Tovar syas: “El decimo tertio mes, quecholli, q[ue] es nombre /equivoco que significa un paxaro de pluma rica y tam / bien una hasta de guerra q[ue] la figura q[ue] aquí esta pin / tada tiene en la mano, ponen en este mes este vulto apunto / de guerra porque tenian a este por mes melancolico”. The anthropomorphic figure on the same page has a projectile in his hand, held horizontally, apparently made from a reed stalk, with a lighter-colored tapering point on one end and a small, curved attachment on the other; near the latter end are feathers. The Ixtlilxochitl Codex, also alphabetical and pictorial, says “Esta fiesta llamaban quechule que quiere desir saeta que por otro nombre llaman / mitl porque en ella asian munchas saetas y con ellas y cor [sic] arcos baylaban este dia delante del de / monio que llamaban mizcoatl […]”. The anthropomorphic figure here holds in one hand a banner, a shield, two feathered projectiles, and other objects. Sources: Códice Ixtlilxochitl, facsímil del ms., estudios de Geert Bastiaan van Doesburg y Florencio Carrera González, Graz/México, Akademische Druck-und Verlagsanstalt/Fondo de Cultura Económica, 1996, f. 100v. Tovar, Juan de, The Tovar calendar, an illustrated Mexican manuscript ca. 1585, reproduced with a commentary and handlist of sources on the Mexican 365-day year (Memoirs of the Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences, vol. 11), George Kubler y Charles Gibson, editors, New Haven, Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences, 1951, plate 11. ************************************************* De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de grigsby tom Enviado el: jueves, 03 de diciembre de 2009 01:32 p.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Quecholli as Macaw Listeros, Can someone cite the documentation by which “Quecholli” has become “Macaw” (Hassig's Time, History and Belief ...)? Elsewhere I’ve seen “arrow” (from Codice Ixtlilxochitl), precious feather, and of course the hoary “roseate spoonbill.” Thanks, Tom Grigsby G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria GSM: 359 0899 784 081 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Dec 5 20:34:03 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 14:34:03 -0600 Subject: Quecholli as macaw Message-ID: I looked into Wimmer's Torquemada quote and it doesn't seem to support the "macaw" translation. Torquemada says: "Este catorceno mes caía a los veinte y tres de octubre y fenecía a los once de noviembre. Al cual llamaban quecholli, nombre de un pájaro de pluma azul y colorada que hay en esta tierra, en especial en unos manantiales y ojos de agua, que hay junto al pueblo de Quecholac, que quiere decir en el agua o lugar de los quecholes. La causa de nombrarse así este mes, se dice en el capítulo de la ethimologias de los meses [...]" (Torquemada, vol. 3, p. 403 [book 10, chapter 26]). Several pages later he adds: "Al catorceno mes llamaban los mexicanos quecholli, que quiere decir el mes del francolín, que es una ave muy hermosa y pintada, llamada de los nuestros, por otro nombre, flamenca, por su hermosura y gala; la cual ave tienen los naturales en grande estimación y precio, porque decían que era ave dedicada a los dioses, y así la llaman teoquechol; y otros, después que son cristianos, la llaman tlauhquechol; tiene el pico ancho como el pato, y los pies ni más ni menos que ellos; los cuales suelen venir por este mes dicho de lejas tierras, de aquella parte de la Florida, que es a la parte del norte. [...]" (pp. 426, 427 [book 10, chapter 35]). It sounds like he's talking about the Roseate Spoonbill (Ajaia ajaja), which looks a bit like a flamingo, although with a shorter neck and legs and ducklike beak. Some of these Spoonbills have a touch of blue on the neck, as far as I can tell from images retrieved by Google, although most don't. It's strange that Hassig (p. 14) would go for "macaw" with all of the alternative translations, apparently with better support, on the discussion table. Sources: Hassig, Ross, Time, history, and belief in Aztec and colonial Mexico, Austin, University of Texas Press, 2001. Torquemada, Juan de, Monarquía indiana, de los veinte y un libros rituales y monarquía indiana, con el origen y guerras de los indios occidentales, de sus poblazones, descubrimiento, conquista, conversión y otras cosas maravillosas de la mesma tierra, 7 vols., Miguel León-Portilla, coordinador, México, Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1975-1983. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Sat Dec 5 13:53:57 2009 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:53:57 -0500 Subject: hoary spoonbill Message-ID: I think the identification "roseate spoonbill" is specifically of tla:uhquecho:olli 'red quechol' (the first element being tla:huitl, referring to the color of red ochre or firelight). Another identification of tla:uchquecho:lli has been flamingo. The quecho:lli element refers to the neck of the bird, both the spoonbill and the flamingo swinging their heads back and forth on their long necks as they search water for food. Anyway, if hoary is taken literally to refer to frost, a hoary spoonbill would have to be an albino. :-) Fran, an observer of many a roseate spoonbill feeding at the Decker Lake water treatment plant east of Austin _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Dec 6 18:11:58 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 12:11:58 -0600 Subject: hoary spoonbill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm interested in documenting this, especially since quecholli is the name of a twenty-day ritual period and I just wrote an article comparing Nahuatl and Otomi calendrical terms. It's too late to modify the article, but the same information is part of a book in progress. Both Torquemada (cited in a previous post) and Sahagún (Florentine Codex, book 11, chapter 2, paragraph 1) say that teoquechol and tlauhquechol are different names for the same bird, that this bird is aquatic and that it has a ducklike beak, among other characteristics. Both descriptions match the roseate spoonbill (Ajaia ajaja) better than the flamingo (Phoenicopterus ruber), especially the part about the beak. So I have two questions for Fran and the rest of the listeros: 1. Could the flamingo identification of the word quecholli come from the fact that Spaniards of the early colonial period called the roseate spoonbill "ave flamenca"? (The only documented case of this that I have is the Torquemada quote.) 2. Is there evidence for identifying the teoquechol or tlauhquechol, or any other bird with quechol(li) in its Nahuatl name, with Phoenicopterus ruber rather than Ajaia ajaja, other than the word "flamenca" used by Torquemada and pehaps other writers of the colonial period? 3. Getting back to Tom's original question, does anyone have evidence to suport Hassig's "macaw" translation of quecholli? (I haven't found any). David Wright -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Frances Karttunen Enviado el: sábado, 05 de diciembre de 2009 07:54 a.m. Para: Nahuat-L ((messages)) Asunto: [Nahuat-l] hoary spoonbill I think the identification "roseate spoonbill" is specifically of tla:uhquecho:olli 'red quechol' (the first element being tla:huitl, referring to the color of red ochre or firelight). Another identification of tla:uchquecho:lli has been flamingo. The quecho:lli element refers to the neck of the bird, both the spoonbill and the flamingo swinging their heads back and forth on their long necks as they search water for food. Anyway, if hoary is taken literally to refer to frost, a hoary spoonbill would have to be an albino. :-) Fran, an observer of many a roseate spoonbill feeding at the Decker Lake water treatment plant east of Austin _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Dec 7 04:02:02 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 23:02:02 -0500 Subject: hoary spoonbill In-Reply-To: <000601ca769f$9a3bd310$ceb37930$@net.mx> Message-ID: David Wright asked: > > > 1. Could the flamingo identification of the word quecholli come from the > fact that Spaniards of the early colonial period called the roseate > spoonbill "ave flamenca"? (The only documented case of this that I have is > the Torquemada quote.) > > The identification is quite common, i know in modern times, and I would suppose earlier too. Throughout the Gulf and Caribbean the Roseate Spoonbill was commonly called a Flamingo. My wife and I are amateur bird watchers and lived in Florida for 14 years. Spoonbills are always called Flamingos by locals, until you actually see a Flamingo. They are both brilliant pink, but structurally quite different. -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Dec 7 16:23:34 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:23:34 -0600 Subject: hoary spoonbill In-Reply-To: <36b8d27aa84b2b6983ce4a7a63b91aad.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Fritz. Sebastian Covarrubias' entry under "flamenco", in his dictionary of 1611, is interesting. Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebastián, “Tesoro de la lengua castellana o española”, facsímil de la ed. de 1611, en Fondo Antiguo, Biblioteca, Universidad de Sevilla (http://fondosdigitales.us.es/fondos/libros/765/16/tesoro-de-la-lengua-caste llana-o-espanola/; acceso: 7 dic. 2009). It's good to have a good facsimile edition of the first edition on line; I found it today for the first time. The second edition has been available in the Biblioteca Virtual Miguel de Cervantes for a few years. This is the best work for getting closer to the meanings of Spanish words in the early colonial texts of New Spain. -----Mensaje original----- De: John F. Schwaller [mailto:schwallr at potsdam.edu] Enviado el: domingo, 06 de diciembre de 2009 10:02 p.m. Para: David Wright CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] hoary spoonbill David Wright asked: > > > 1. Could the flamingo identification of the word quecholli come from the > fact that Spaniards of the early colonial period called the roseate > spoonbill "ave flamenca"? (The only documented case of this that I have is > the Torquemada quote.) > > The identification is quite common, i know in modern times, and I would suppose earlier too. Throughout the Gulf and Caribbean the Roseate Spoonbill was commonly called a Flamingo. My wife and I are amateur bird watchers and lived in Florida for 14 years. Spoonbills are always called Flamingos by locals, until you actually see a Flamingo. They are both brilliant pink, but structurally quite different. -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Tue Dec 8 05:18:20 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 05:18:20 +0000 Subject: hoary spoonbill In-Reply-To: <000901ca7759$9fa16670$dee43350$@net.mx> Message-ID: Dear friends, I don't know much about birds but according to the people from Quauhquechollan the Quechollin looks like they painted it in their lienzo (see the attached photo or Florine Asselbergs' book about the lienzo). Maybe one of you bird watchers can identified it this way. Doesn't look like a flamenco to me though. Abrazo, Michel > From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx > To: schwallr at potsdam.edu > Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:23:34 -0600 > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] hoary spoonbill > > Thanks, Fritz. > > Sebastian Covarrubias' entry under "flamenco", in his dictionary of 1611, is > interesting. > > Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebastián, “Tesoro de la lengua castellana o española”, > facsímil de la ed. de 1611, en Fondo Antiguo, Biblioteca, Universidad de > Sevilla > (http://fondosdigitales.us.es/fondos/libros/765/16/tesoro-de-la-lengua-caste > llana-o-espanola/; acceso: 7 dic. 2009). > > It's good to have a good facsimile edition of the first edition on line; I > found it today for the first time. The second edition has been available in > the Biblioteca Virtual Miguel de Cervantes for a few years. This is the best > work for getting closer to the meanings of Spanish words in the early > colonial texts of New Spain. > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: John F. Schwaller [mailto:schwallr at potsdam.edu] > Enviado el: domingo, 06 de diciembre de 2009 10:02 p.m. > Para: David Wright > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] hoary spoonbill > > David Wright asked: > > > > > > 1. Could the flamingo identification of the word quecholli come from the > > fact that Spaniards of the early colonial period called the roseate > > spoonbill "ave flamenca"? (The only documented case of this that I have is > > the Torquemada quote.) > > > > > > The identification is quite common, i know in modern times, and I would > suppose earlier too. Throughout the Gulf and Caribbean the Roseate > Spoonbill was commonly called a Flamingo. My wife and I are amateur bird > watchers and lived in Florida for 14 years. Spoonbills are always called > Flamingos by locals, until you actually see a Flamingo. They are both > brilliant pink, but structurally quite different. > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President, > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _________________________________________________________________ New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more. http://windows.microsoft.com/shop -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Quecholli.jpg Type: image/pjpeg Size: 116575 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Dec 8 13:28:43 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 08:28:43 -0500 Subject: hoary spoonbill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's the double-headed eagle that the Spanish used inherited from the Hapsburg coat of arms, which is probably how it ended up in Mexico. What is interesting in that the two birds have quite different plumage. The one on the right has common eagle coloring and beak, but the one on the left is more of a tropical bird, more like a macaw or parrot. Michel Oudijk wrote: > Dear friends, > > I don't know much about birds but according to the people from > Quauhquechollan the Quechollin looks like they painted it in their > lienzo (see the attached photo or Florine Asselbergs' book about the > lienzo). Maybe one of you bird watchers can identified it this way. > Doesn't look like a flamenco to me though. > > Abrazo, > > Michel > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Tue Dec 8 14:44:00 2009 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 08:44:00 -0600 Subject: mo:la and mo:lli Message-ID: Could it be that mo:la, "to grind s.t. up" comes from mo:lli, "sauce", and not viceversa? In other words, mo:l-li + -a (the verbing suffix that makes transitive verbs out of nouns, such as cocoa: and xi:xa). John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Dec 8 15:10:38 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:10:38 -0500 Subject: mo:la and mo:lli In-Reply-To: <8841EF28-A828-47D4-A3E0-ED2A373B2B91@mac.com> Message-ID: Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Could it be that mo:la, "to grind s.t. up" comes from mo:lli, > "sauce", and not viceversa? In other words, mo:l-li + -a (the verbing > suffix that makes transitive verbs out of nouns, such as cocoa: and > xi:xa). > John > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > What was the question? _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Dec 8 15:15:29 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:15:29 -0500 Subject: mo:la and mo:lli In-Reply-To: <20091208101038.mmuayfrn0o8wcoos@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: To ask the question another way, is there an irreducible stem "mo:l" that conveys meaning of grinding? Is it made a noun through the use of the singular absolutive suffix, and becomes a transitive verb through a verbing suffix "a" ? The way you phrased it, John, seems to be a "which came first the chicken or the egg?" kind of question. Michael McCafferty wrote: > Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > > >> Could it be that mo:la, "to grind s.t. up" comes from mo:lli, >> "sauce", and not viceversa? In other words, mo:l-li + -a (the verbing >> suffix that makes transitive verbs out of nouns, such as cocoa: and >> xi:xa). >> John >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > What was the question? > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de Tue Dec 8 16:27:12 2009 From: h.kammler at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 17:27:12 +0100 Subject: mo:la and mo:lli In-Reply-To: <4B1E6D91.7080608@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: > The way you phrased it, John, seems to be a "which came first the > chicken or the egg?" kind of question. > In general terms there's a tendency for concentration on word class issues in Nahuatl grammar discussions. Wouldn't it be more promising to just look at roots as irreducible entities that are neither inherently verbal nor nominal but combine with different sets of suffixes according to, among others, their syntactic relations? So the root /mo:l/ combines either with /-a/ or with /-li/, without one taking precedence over the other. Something that e.g. touches on the whole terminology around the different "verb bases" which are didatically useful but analytically not very satisfying (for the "bases" are mostly already stems derived from a root plus suffixes). Sâhkôn niknemilia Henry _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Dec 8 19:48:27 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:48:27 -0600 Subject: hoary spoonbill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Michel. Thanks for the input. If the bird on the left in your image is a quecholli, it looks a lot more like the xiuhquecholli (Dibble and Anderson suggest the subspecies Momotus lessoni goldmani) than the tlauhquechol/ teoquechol, which is the bird that has been identified as the roseate spoonbill (Ajaia ajaja), and by some as the flamingo (Phoenicopterus ruber), although it looks for now like the flamingo identification is due to the fact that people were just calling spoonbills “flamingos” because of the similarities between the two species. You can see native renderings of (and read about) both the tlauhquechol/teoquechol and the xiuhquechol in the Florentine Codex, book 11, chapter 2, paragraph 1. Torquemada specifically relates the 20-day ritual period quecholli to the tlauhquechol/teoquechol. After reading all of the very helpful comments provided by several listeros, I decided to translate the ritual period quecholli as “La cuchareta rosada/el proyectil” in my work in progress, adding the following footnote: Las fuentes novohispanas están divididas en cuanto a la traducción de la palabra quecholli. Para Torquemada (1975-1983: III, 403, 426, 427 [libro 10, capítulos 26, 35]), el nombre de este mes se relaciona con el teoquechol o tlauhquechol, un ave acuático de plumas valiosas que puede ser identificada con un grado razonable de certeza con la cucharada rosada (Ajaia ajaja). Esta ave es llamada “flamenca” por Torquemada, pero las descripciones de este autor y de Sahagún (1979: III, 20v, 21r [libro 11, capítulo 2, párrafo 1]) dejan en claro que no se trata del ave que ahora llamamos “flamingo” (Phoenicopterus ruber), sino de la cucharada rosada, especialmente porque ambos autores hacen hincapié en el hecho de que esta ave tiene un pico parecido al del pato. Otros autores novohispanos traducen quecholli como algún tipo de proyectil, sea una flecha tirada con el arco, un dardo lanzado con el atlatl o lanzadardos, o una especia de lanza (Anders/Jansen [editores], 1996a: 41v; Doesburg/Carrera [editores], 1996: 100v; Durán, 1967: i, 281 [libro de los ritos, capítulo 17]; Tovar, 1951: lám. 11). Any comments on this are more than welcome. Here are the references, in case anyone wants to looks this stuff up. Anders, Ferdinand; Jansen, Maarten E. R. G. N. (editores) 1996a Códice Magliabechi, facsímil del ms., Graz/México, Akademische Druck-und Verlagsanstalt/Fondo de Cultura Económica. Doesburg, Geert Bastiaan van; Carrera González, Florencio (editores) 1996 Códice Ixtlilxochitl, facsímil del ms., Graz/México, Akademische Druck-und Verlagsanstalt/Fondo de Cultura Económica. Durán, Diego 1967 Historia de las Indias de Nueva España e islas de tierra firme, 2 vols., Ángel María Garibay Kintana, editor, México, Editorial Porrúa. Sahagún, Bernardino de 1974-1982 Florentine codex, general history of the things of New Spain, 1a. ed./2a. ed./reimpresión, 13 partes, Arthur J. O. Anderson y Charles E. Dibble, editores y traductores, Santa Fe/Salt Lake City, The School of American Research/The University of Utah. 1979 Códice florentino, facsímil del ms., 3 vols., México, Secretaría de Gobernación. Torquemada, Juan de 1975-1983 Monarquía indiana, de los veinte y un libros rituales y monarquía indiana, con el origen y guerras de los indios occidentales, de sus poblazones, descubrimiento, conquista, conversión y otras cosas maravillosas de la mesma tierra, 7 vols., Miguel León-Portilla, coordinador, México, Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México. Tovar, Juan de 1951 The Tovar calendar, an illustrated Mexican manuscript ca. 1585, reproduced with a commentary and handlist of sources on the Mexican 365-day year (Memoirs of the Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences, vol. 11), George Kubler y Charles Gibson, editores, New Haven, Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences. *********************************************************** De: Michel Oudijk [mailto:oudyk at hotmail.com] Enviado el: lunes, 07 de diciembre de 2009 11:18 p.m. Para: David Wright; schwallr at potsdam.edu CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] hoary spoonbill Dear friends,   I don't know much about birds but according to the people from Quauhquechollan the Quechollin looks like they painted it in their lienzo (see the attached photo or Florine Asselbergs' book about the lienzo). Maybe one of you bird watchers can identified it this way. Doesn't look like a flamenco to me though.   Abrazo,   Michel De: Michel Oudijk [mailto:oudyk at hotmail.com] Enviado el: lunes, 07 de diciembre de 2009 11:18 p.m. Para: David Wright; schwallr at potsdam.edu CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] hoary spoonbill Dear friends,   I don't know much about birds but according to the people from Quauhquechollan the Quechollin looks like they painted it in their lienzo (see the attached photo or Florine Asselbergs' book about the lienzo). Maybe one of you bird watchers can identified it this way. Doesn't look like a flamenco to me though.   Abrazo,   Michel _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Dec 9 04:39:44 2009 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:39:44 -0500 Subject: Quecholli as Macaw In-Reply-To: <665391.48605.qm@web110006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tom, I collected these "-quechol-" occurrences in the Florentine, but then I saw the concrete comments on bird descriptions and doubted sending it. But then it was burning a hole in my disk, so here it is. The page notations are fairly accurate, but sometimes you have to look on the preceding page. I hope you make it to a Friends of Uto-Aztecan Conference get-together someday soon. Joe cuauhquecholecacehuaztli** 1. ihuan in ixquich mahcehuallatquitl, in netotiloni, in nechichihualoni in quetzalli, in icpacxochitl, in machoncotl, in matemacatl in ehcacehuaztli, aztaecacehuaztli, *cuauhquecholecacehuaztli*, zacuanecacehuaztli, coxolehcacehuaztli quetzalecacehuaztli,. and all the dance array, gear, and ornaments: the quetzal feathers, head ornaments, bracelets for the upper arm with precious feathers, gold bands for the upper arm; fans -- fans of heron, of red spoonbill, of troupial, of crested guan, of quetzal feathers; (b.9 f.7 p.92). cuauhquecholteca** 2. auh in ixquich *cuauhquecholteca* calli in tianquiztli quiyahualotoc moch tenamitl mochiuh. and all the houses of the quauhquechollan people which lay surrounding the market place, all of them became a wall. (b.12 f.7 p.105). 3. ihuan moch mocuitlacoyoni in *cuauhquecholteca* calli,. and the quauhquechollan people's houses all had openings at the back. (b.12 f.7 p.108). cuezalquechol** 4. auh in axcan ma xiza, ma ximehua, ma ximoquetza, ca ye tlaca, ca ye tlathui, ca otlacuezalehuac, ca omoquetzaco in tlahuizcalli, ca ye tlatoa in cuezalpaxitl, in cuezalcuicuitzcatl, ye tlatoa in nepapan *cuezalquechol*:. and now awaken, arise, stand forth, for already it is day, already it dawneth; the morning hath reddened, the dawn hath set in; already the flame-colored cock, the flame-colored swallow sing; the various flame-colored roseate spoonbills sing. (b.6 f.14 p.164). iquechol** 5. tlatoa *iquechol*. his firebird speaks (b.2 f.14 p.238). iquecholhuan** 6. mitoa iuhquin *iquecholhuan*, izacuantotohua, itlazototohuan in tezcatlipoca:. it was said that they were like the blue cotingas, the troupials, the precious birds of tezcatlipoca. (b.4 f.4 p.34). 7. quitoa in tlatolli, izacuahuan, itotohuan, *iquecholhuan* in toteucyo.. the proverb speaks of "the precious feathers of the lord." (b.11 f.6 p.54). iteoquecholtzon** 8. *iteoquecholtzon*, itlauhquecholtzon contlaliaya in icpac: iuhquimma itzoncal pohuia in tlazoihhuitl teoquechol:. they placed on his head his plumage of precious red spoonbill feathers; the precious red spoonbill feathers served as his headdress. (b.9 f.5 p.69). itlauhquecholtzon** 9. iteoquecholtzon, *itlauhquecholtzon* contlaliaya in icpac: iuhquimma itzoncal pohuia in tlazoihhuitl teoquechol:. they placed on his head his plumage of precious red spoonbill feathers; the precious red spoonbill feathers served as his headdress. (b.9 f.5 p.69). moquechol** 10. quitoa. tonan, tota tonatiuh, tlalteuctli: izcatqui in macehualli, in mozacuan, in *moquechol*, in cuauhtli, in ocelotl,. she said: "our mother, our father, tonatiuh, tlaltecutli: here is the commoner, thy troupial, thy roseate spoonbill, the eagle, the ocelot. (b.6 f.16 p.203). nequecholzahualhuia** 11. zan ipan in huehuei ilhuitl mozahuaya, ipan in netlalocazahualoya, ihuan in netonatiuhzahualoya, ihuan in *nequecholzahualhuia*:. only at the time of the great feasts did he fast: at the time when there was fasting for tlaloc, and when there was fasting for the sun, and when there was fasting for [the feast of] quecholli. (b.2 f.13 p.214). quechol** 12. ma tlachichina nepapan *quechol*, xochitl aca.. let all the various firebirds sip nectar where flowers stand erect (b.2 f.14 p.238). 13. ma tlato ma mozozohua in *quechol*, in zacuan:. may the roseate spoonbill, the troupial sing; may they preen themselves. (b.6 f.1 p.5). 14. in zacuan, in *quechol*: ca za tlamahuilani, za netzitzinehualo, za netzonicquetzalo, tlacacamachalihui.. the troupial, the roseate spoonbill just drag [their wings]; they are up-ended, tumbled headfirst; they open and close their bills [from thirst]. impersonal (like the preceding "netzonjcquetzalo") (b.6 f.3 p.36). 15. ma tlato ma papatlaca, ma tlachichina in *quechol* in zacuan:. may the roseate spoonbill, the troupial sing, flutter, sip [flower nectar]. (b.6 f.4 p.39). 16. in ixquich nepapan tototl: itoca. zacuan: *quechol*, tzinitzcan: ihuan impan mocaqui in tlazoti,. the names of [the feathers] of all the different birds are ‡aquan, quechol, tzinitzcan: and of them it is understood that they are the precious ones. (b.11 f.6 p.54). quecholicpalli** 17. tecpantoque, ipan huehuei icpalli, itoca *quecholicpalli*.. they were in order upon large backed seats called roseate spoonbill feather seats. (b.2 f.1 p.51). 18. auh in moteuczoma tlaquetzaltitlan motlaztica *quecholicpalli* in ipan ca oceloehuatl in ipepech yetica:. and moctezuma remained seated by a wooden column on a seat with a back rest, which was on his ocelot skin carpet. (b.9 f.5 p.65). quecholli** 19. inic cempoalli ommatlactli omei capitulo: oncan motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualli, inic tlacotia: in quichihuaya, in ipan ic cemilhuitl, ic matlactetl on nahui metztli, in motenehuaya, *quecholli*.. thirty-third chapter, in which are related the feast day and the debt-paying with which they gave service, which they observed during all the days of the fourteenth month, which was called quecholli. (b.2 f.8 p.134). 20. inic matlactetl on nahui ilhuitl: yehhuatl in motenehua *quecholli*:. the fourteenth feast was the one called quecholli. (b.2 f.8 p.134). 21. auh in oacic, in huel icuac ilhuitl, *quecholli* inic tlami cempoalli: oncan xalacoa, oncan xallaqui, in miquizque:. and when [the time] had arrived, when it was verily the feast of quecholli, with which the twenty [days] ended, there was going into the sand there; those who were to die went into the sand there. (b.2 f.8 p.138). 22. nican tzonquiza in *quecholli*.. here endeth [the account of the feast of] quecholli. (b.2 f.8 p.140). 23. auh in onquiz *quecholli* ilhuitl: niman ic pehua in cuicoyanolo,. and when the feast of quecholli ended, then began the singing and dancing. (b.2 f.8 p.140). 24. in oquimontzoncuique, mec motlatlatlatilia (in iuh omito ipan *quecholli*).. when they had cut hair [from the crowns of their heads], then they put it away for themselves (as hath been told in [the account of] quecholli). (b.2 f.8 p.144). 25. in quemmanian ipan in mochihuaya *quecholli*: auh anozo quemmanian ipan in tepeilhuitl mochihuaya.. sometimes it was observed in [the month of] quecholli, but perhaps sometimes it was observed in [the month of] tepeilhuitl. (b.2 f.11 p.177). 26. in teotlalpan, oncan tlayahualohuaya, cecexiuhtica: ihcuac in *quecholli* quizaya ilhuitl.. teotlalpan: there was a procession there each year when the feast of quecholli arrived. (b.2 f.11 p.181). 27. in tlamatzinco: oncan miquia in mitoaya, in intoca catca tlamatzinca, in tlaaltiti: ihcuac in *quecholli*, itlamian cexiuhtica.. tlamatzinco: there died those called, those whose name was the tlamatzinca [impersonators of tlamatzincatl], ceremonially bathed victims, at the time of [the month] quecholli, at its close, yearly. (b.2 f.12 p.185). 28. auh ipan in *quecholli* tlami mochihuaya, ihuan cexiuhtica.. and this was done at the time of the close of quecholli, and [it was done] each year. (b.2 f.12 p.186). 29. in cohuatlan, oncan miquia in intoca catca centzonhuitznahua: ahzo ihcuac in tlamamalihuaya, anozo ihcuac in *quecholli* tlami cexiuhtica.. coatlan: there died [the impersonators] named the centzonuitznaua, perchance when there was drilling [of new fire] or, yearly, when it was [the feast of] quecholli tlami. (b.2 f.12 p.191). 30. in tollan teohua, yehhuatl ipan tlatoaya, in itech monequia totoltecatl: in amatl in copalli, in olli, ihuan in itzcactli, in aztatzontli, ihuan in teucxochitl: in ye ixquich itech monequia totoltecatl, in ihcuac miquia, ipan in *quecholli* tlami, auh in quemman ipan in tepeilhuitl.. the keeper of the god of tollan issued directions for what [the impersonator of] totoltecatl required: the paper, the incense, the [liquid] rubber, and the obsidian sandals, the heron feather headdress, and the lordly flowers, everything which [the impersonator of] totoltecatl required when he died, at the time of [the feast of] quecholli tlami and sometimes at the time of [the feast of] tepeilhuitl. (b.2 f.13 p.215). 31. nepapan *quecholli* ma quecholli xiccaqui. hear all the firebirds the various firebirds (b.2 f.14 p.238). 32. nepapan quecholli ma *quecholli* xiccaqui. hear all the firebirds the various firebirds (b.2 f.14 p.238). 33. auh in izquilhuitico in mexico inic calaquico in espa¤oles: ipan ce hecatl in cemilhuitlapoalli: auh in xiuhtonalli ce acatl, oc moztla tlamatlactiz *quecholli*:. and these are all the days since the spaniards came to enter mexico upon the day-count one wind and the year-count one reed, [when] yet next day would be the tenth of quecholli. (b.12 f.5 p.80). 34. auh in cemilhuitique ome calli: huel ihcuac in tlamatlacti *quecholli*:. and when they had passed the day two house, at that time indeed it was the tenth of quecholli. (b.12 f.5 p.80). 35. auh in oacic, tlami *quecholli* in huel ilhuitl: niman ye ic quihualtoquilia in panquetzaliztli, cempoalilhuitl:. and when the end of quecholli arrived, on the very day, thereupon panquetzaliztli followed after it: twenty days. (b.12 f.5 p.80). 36. *quecholli* ic chicompoaltique:. quecholli: with it they passed the seventh score. (b.12 f.5 p.81). teoquechol** 37. ihuan in quilhuia quetzalyacatl, in zan tepitoton, in chilchotic, ihuan in tzinitzcan, in *teoquechol*: in axcan mitoa tlauhquechol, ihuan in xiuhtototl, in ayopal, in toztli, in tozcuicuil, in zacuan, in cochoihhuitl, in chamolin, in cuitlatexotli, in cozohtli, in xiuhapalli. etc.. and those they called down feathers, the very small ones, the chili-green ones and the crest feathers of the quetzal; and feathers of the red spoonbill [teoquechol], which is now called tlauhquechol; and the blue cotinga, the amethyst-colored ones, the yellow parrot, the multicolored parrot, the trupial, the red and yellow parrot, the scarlet parrot, the blue parrot, the dove; and aquamarine feathers, etc. (b.4 f.5 p.46). 38. auh ye impan nez, in teocuitlatentetl, ihuan teocuitlanacochtli, ihuan maxitlaztli: yehhuatl in motocayotia matzatzaztli, anillo, ihuan chayahuac cozcatl, ihuan teoxihuitl: ihuan huehuei chalchihuitl, ihuan huiac quetzalli: ihuan tecuanehuatl, ihuan huiac zacuan, ihuan xiuhtototl, ihuan *teoquechol*.. and in their time appeared gold lip and ear plugs and rings for the fingers--those called matzatzaztli [or] anillo; and necklaces with radiating pendants, and fine turquoise, and enormous green stones, and long quetzal feathers; and the skins of wild animals; and long troupial feathers, and blue cotinga and red spoonbill feathers. (b.9 f.1 p.2). 39. ihuan *teoquechol*, zacuan, ihuan chalchiuhtotoli ihuan tocihhuitl, ihuan tecuanehuatl:. and the feathers of the red spoonbill, the troupial, and the blue honeycreeper; and yellow parrot feathers; and the skins of wild animals; (b.9 f.2 p.19). 40. auh in ye iuhqui in oitech compachoque: in oconquixti in cuauhyo in teyo, in teahualiztlatolli: zatepan quitlatlauhtia quichoquiztlapaloa, quicahualtia inic amo atlamatiz, inic amo mopoaz inic amo quimotlatquitocaz, in ahzo itla oquitlaocoli in toteucyo, in quexquich itlatqui ohualyetia: in quetzalli, in tzinitzcan, in *teoquechol*, in zacuan, i xiuhtototl, in xomoihhuitl: anozo chalchihuitl ahzo apozonalli, ahzo atzaccayotl, ahzo acuahuitl, anozo tecuanehuatl: ahzo cacahuatl, ahzo teonacaztli in oquicuito, inic onahualoztomecatito.. and when this was done, when they had reprehended, castigated, admonished him, then they besought him; they greeted him, weeping; they charged him not to be presumptuous nor proud, not to attribute his gains falsely to himself when perchance our lord had shown him some little mercy with as many of his goods as he had brought with him: the quetzal feathers, the trogonorus, red spoonbill, troupial, blue cotinga; the duck feathers; or the green stone, or the amber, or the stoppers for gourds, or stirring sticks; or the skins of wild animals; perhaps the cacao beans or the "divine ear" spice which he had gone to secure when he had gone practising trade as a disguised merchant. (b.9 f.3 p.30). 41. iteoquecholtzon, itlauhquecholtzon contlaliaya in icpac: iuhquimma itzoncal pohuia in tlazoihhuitl *teoquechol*:. they placed on his head his plumage of precious red spoonbill feathers; the precious red spoonbill feathers served as his headdress. (b.9 f.5 p.69). 42. ihuan ompa nemi, in cualli ihhuitl, in tlazotli, in zacuan, in tlauhquechol, in *teoquechol*, in xiuhtototl, in cochotl, in quilito: no ompa nemi in quetzaltototl:. and there were the beautiful feathers, the precious feathers, [the feathers of] the troupial, the red spoonbill, the blue cotinga, the white-fronted parrot, the mexican parrotlets; the resplendent trogonorus was also there. (b.10 f.12 p.187). 43. ihuan itoca *teoquechol*,. also its name is teoquechol. (b.11 f.3 p.20). tihquechol** 44. xicmati, xiccaqui: amo nican mochan, ca ticuauhtli, ca tocelotl, ca *tihquechol*, ca tihzacuan in tloque, nahuaque: ca tiicoauh ca tiitotouh:. heed, hearken: thy home is not here, for thou art an eagle, thou art an ocelot; thou art a roseate spoonbill, thou art a troupial. thou art the serpent, the bird of the lord of the near, of the nigh. (b.6 f.14 p.171). tlaohquecholiecacehuaztli** 45. auh in yehhuantin tlatoque, in quimotlauhtiaya: yehuatl in tlatocatilmatli tetecomayo, ihuan xahualcuauhyo, ihuan *tlaohquecholiecacehuaztli*,. and these rulers assumed as favors the rulers' capes with the cup-shaped designs, and with the eagle face painted upon them; and red spoonbill feather fans. (b.9 f.1 p.7). tlauhquechol** 46. huel quiciyahui huel quihiyohuia, inic quitemoa in chalchihuitl, in quetzalitztli, in teoxihuitl, in apozonalli, in teocuitlatl: in nepapan ihhuitl, in quetzalli, in tzinitzcan, in *tlauhquechol*, xiuhtototl, in toztli, zacua: cuauhtli, in tecuanehuatl, in ocelopetlatl. auh in tecomatl, in poctecomatl, in ayotectli, in acuahuitl, in atzaccayotl:. greatly were they wearied, much did they suffer to seek out the precious green stones, emerald-green jade, fine turquoise, amber, gold; [and] all manner of feathers: the long tail feathers of the resplendent trogon, its red breast feathers, those of the roseate spoonbill, the lovely cotinga, the yellow headed parrot, the troupial, the eagle; and the skins of fierce animals, rugs of ocelot skins, and gourd bowls, incense bowls, tortoise-shell cups, spoons for stirring cacao, stoppers for jars. (b.1 f.2 p.42). 47. tlazotlanqui: mochi tlazoihhuitl inic tlachiuhtli, inic tlayecchihualli, inic tlacuilolli, inic tlatenchilnahuayotilli, in iten, zan moch *tlauhquechol*:. it was costly; it was all made, embellished, designed with precious feathers; it was provided with the red-eye border; its edge was quite all of roseate spoonbill [feathers]. (b.2 f.3 p.72). 48. in itonatiuhtlatqui yahualtic huei ihhuitica tlatzacualli, *tlauhquechol* inic tlatzacualli,. his sun costume was round, enclosed by feathers, enclosed by roseate spoonbill feathers. (b.2 f.14 p.217). 49. auh ixquich nenca in tlazotototl, i xiuhtototl, in quetzaltototl, i zacua, in *tlauhquechol*,. and there dwelt all [varieties] of birds of precious feather: the lovely cotinga, the resplendent trogon, the troupial, the roseate spoonbill. (b.3 f.1 p.14). 50. auh in ixquich in tlazotototl, in quetzaltototl, in xiuhtototl, in *tlauhquechol* mochintin achtopa quimihua,. and all the precious birds, the resplendent trogons, the lovely cotingas, the roseate spoonbills, all of them he sent away beforehand. (b.3 f.3 p.33). 51. ihuan in quilhuia quetzalyacatl, in zan tepitoton, in chilchotic, ihuan in tzinitzcan, in teoquechol: in axcan mitoa *tlauhquechol*, ihuan in xiuhtototl, in ayopal, in toztli, in tozcuicuil, in zacuan, in cochoihhuitl, in chamolin, in cuitlatexotli, in cozohtli, in xiuhapalli. etc.. and those they called down feathers, the very small ones, the chili-green ones and the crest feathers of the quetzal; and feathers of the red spoonbill [teoquechol], which is now called tlauhquechol; and the blue cotinga, the amethyst-colored ones, the yellow parrot, the multicolored parrot, the trupial, the red and yellow parrot, the scarlet parrot, the blue parrot, the dove; and aquamarine feathers, etc. (b.4 f.5 p.46). 52. totocalli, calpixque oncan quimpiaya, in ixquich nepapan tototl: cuacuauhti, *tlauhquechol*, zacuan, tozneneme, cochome, alome, coxoliti:. totocalli: there majordomos kept all the various birds -- eagles, red spoonbills, trupials, yellow parrots, parakeets, large parrots, pheasants. (b.8 f.3 p.45). 53. noncua onoca in quinamaca in coztic, ihuan iztac teocuitlatl, ihuan chalchihuitl, ihuan teoxihuitl ihuan quetzalitztli, ihuan quetzalli, ihuan xiuhtototl, ihuan *tlauhquechol*, ihuan ixquich nepapan totoihhuitl, tlazotli in itech monequia tlahuiztli chimalli.. separate were those who sold gold and silver, and green stone, and turquoise, and emeralds, and quetzal feathers, and [those of] the blue cotinga, and the red spoonbill, and all the various precious feathers of birds, which were needed for devices and shields. (b.8 f.4 p.67). 54. ic tzetzeliuhtoc, ic moyahuatoc in ye mochi tlazoihhuitl, in xiuhtototl in xiuhtotocuitlapilli, in *tlauhquechol* xiloxochitic ihuan in cuauhihhuitl in cuauhtehuitztli: niman yehe in tzinitzcan in chilchotic quetzalhuitztli ihuan in toztli, in toztapacatl, in tozcuicuil in pilihhuitl. auh in ayopal in ielihhuiyo, xiuhtototl,. thus they were sprinkled, thus were they scattered with all manner of precious feathers: the blue cotinga, the tail feathers of the blue cotinga, [feathers of] the red spoonbill, those the color of the corn silk flower; and eagle feathers -- fine eagle feathers; also trogonorus feathers; green, pointed quetzal feathers; and the yellow parrot, neck feathers of the yellow parrot, varicolored parrot feathers; feathers of young birds; and the yellow breast feathers of the blue cotinga. (b.9 f.7 p.84). 55. auh in amanteca immac polihuia, immac poztequia in quetzalli, in zacuan in *tlauhquechol*. and in the hands of the inhabitants of amantlan were used, were taken apart, the feathers of the quetzal, the troupial, the red spoonbill. (b.9 f.7 p.89). 56. auh in *tlauhquechol*: yehhuatl ipepech mochihua in zan ye no ye iialapachyo tlauhquechol, anozo tlatlapalpalli ihhuitl. and for the red spoonbill, the moulted feathers of the same spoonbill, or red dyed feathers, became the basis. (b.9 f.7 p.94). 57. auh in tlauhquechol: yehhuatl ipepech mochihua in zan ye no ye iialapachyo *tlauhquechol*, anozo tlatlapalpalli ihhuitl. and for the red spoonbill, the moulted feathers of the same spoonbill, or red dyed feathers, became the basis. (b.9 f.7 p.94). 58. niman ic contoquilia, motequi in itlahuatzallo, in ipepech mochihua in quenami ihhuitl, in catlehuatl achto ompehua in iuhqui ic ca machiotl, ahzo xiuhtototl ompehua, anozo tzinitzcan, anozo *tlauhquechol*, ahzo ayopal, anozo xiuhuitzili, huitzitzili, quetzalhuitzitzili, tlehuitzilin:. then followed the cutting of its bed of glue-hardened feathers, which became the bed of the feathers according to the kind of feathers with which they first began, according to the pattern: perhaps the blue cotinga, or trogonorus, or red spoonbill, or the yellow ones, or the turquoise hummingbird, the [ordinary] one, the quetzal-green one, the flame-colored one. (b.9 f.7 p.95). 59. auh niman ic *tlauhquechol*, ixcuamol mochihua, iztac ihhuitl molonqui ic ommotzimpachoa. and then red spoonbill formed the border covered at the bottom with white, soft feathers. (b.9 f.7 p.97). 60. no tlatlauhqui in ihhuitl ic tlatzontli, in iuhqui *tlauhquechol* cuezali. etc.. also red was the covering of feathers, such as the red spoonbill, the red arara, etc. (b.10 f.10 p.166). 61. ihuan ompa nemi, in cualli ihhuitl, in tlazotli, in zacuan, in *tlauhquechol*, in teoquechol, in xiuhtototl, in cochotl, in quilito: no ompa nemi in quetzaltototl:. and there were the beautiful feathers, the precious feathers, [the feathers of] the troupial, the red spoonbill, the blue cotinga, the white-fronted parrot, the mexican parrotlets; the resplendent trogonorus was also there. (b.10 f.12 p.187). 62. *tlauhquechol*:. roseate spoonbill (b.11 f.3 p.20). 63. itech cenquiza ca itech cenquiztica in tlapalli, in chichiltic, in xoxoctic, in xiuhtototl, in *tlauhquechol*, in camopalli, in tlahuitl, in quiltic. etc.. colors come constantly from it; they are constantly coming -- chili-red, green, the color of the lovely cotinga, the color of the roseate spoonbill, purple, red, herb-green, etc. (b.11 f.22 p.230). 64. huel mahuiztic tlamahuizoltic, ca itech cenquizca ca in tlapalli in chichiltic, in coztic, in xiuhtototl, in *tlauhquechol*, in quiltic, in ayopaltic, in camiltic, in tetzahuac tlapalli, in poyahuac,. it is really wonderful, marvelous, for from it the color comes constantly: the chili-red, the yellow, the lovely cotinga [color], the roseate spoonbill [color], the herb-green, the gourd-blossom [color], the brown, the dense color, the blended. (b.11 f.23 p.231). 65. quihualitqui in intlacalaquil, intlatqui hualmochiuhtiuh in chalchihuitl in teocuitlatl, in quetzalli ihuan in oc cequi tlazotetl, in teoxihuitl, in xiuhtototl, in *tlauhquechol*:. they brought their tribute; their goods went to become [the victor's]: the green stone, the gold, the precious feathers, and still other precious stones, the fine turquoise, the lovely cotinga, the roseate spoonbill. (b.12 f.8 p.126). tlauhquecholihhuitl** 66. auh in yehhuatl commaquia tlatlauhqui, *tlauhquecholihhuitl* inic tlachiuhtli: coztic teocuitlatl in itetecpayo,. and they dressed him in a red shirt, made of red spoonbill feathers [decorated with] flint knives [fashioned of] gold; (b.8 f.2 p.33). tlauhquecholquemitl** 67. moch ixpan quitequiliaya, quitotoniaya, quitlenamaquiliaya quitlacotoniliaya, in motenehua quetzalquemitl, xiuhtotoquemitl, *tlauhquecholquemitl*, tozquemitl, huitzitzilquemitl,. they had it all spread out before him and laid in the sun; they offered incense and presented him what were called the quetzal feather cape, the blue cotinga feather cape, the red spoonbill feather cape, the yellow parrot feather cape, and the humming bird feather cape. (b.4 f.8 p.77). tlauhquecholtic** 68. chichiltic, *tlauhquecholtic*:. they are chili-red, the color of the roseate spoonbill. (b.11 f.20 p.205). 69. cequi *tlauhquecholtic*,. some [blossoms] are the color of the roseate spoonbill. (b.11 f.20 p.207). 70. chichiltic, *tlauhquecholtic*, ayopaltic,. it is chili-red, the color of the roseate spoonbill, the color of the gourd blossoms. (b.11 f.21 p.210). tlauhquecholtica** 71. yehhuan huel quihuelnextiaya, quiyectlaliaya in tlazoihhuitl, inic tlatoltecatia, in ixquich in mahuizzochimalli in tlatoque intenemac catca: atle nemiuhqui mochi tlazoihhuitica tlapepecholli, tlatzacualli (toztica, tzinitzcantica tlatzacualli,) xiuhtototica huitzitziltica, *tlauhquecholtica* teocuitlatica icuilihhuic, icuiliuhqui, tlatlacuilolli, toztenoloyo, tentlapilollo, tlapiloltica tenchayahuac, cuammoloctica, quetzalpoztectica, zacuantica tlauhquecholtica yacachapollo in tlapilolli:. they displayed well, they made attractive, the precious feathers, thereby preparing artistically all the splendid shields which were the gifts of the rulers; nothing common; all covered, pasted over, with precious feathers; [pasted with yellow parrot feathers, with trogonorus feathers]; painted, decorated, designed with those of the blue cotinga, the hummingbird, the red spoonbill; with gold; tufted with parrot feathers on the border; rimmed with hanging ornaments; with pendants radiating from the [lower] rim; with eagle down, with quetzal feathers, with those of the troupial, with those of the red spoonbill; with grasshopper figures on the ends of the pendants. (b.9 f.7 p.89). 72. huizzochimalli in tlatoque intenemac catca: atle nemiuhqui mochi tlazoihhuitica tlapepecholli, tlatzacualli (toztica, tzinitzcantica tlatzacualli,) xiuhtototica huitzitziltica, tlauhquecholtica teocuitlatica icuilihhuic, icuiliuhqui, tlatlacuilolli, toztenoloyo, tentlapilollo, tlapiloltica tenchayahuac, cuammoloctica, quetzalpoztectica, zacuantica *tlauhquecholtica* yacachapollo in tlapilolli:. they displayed well, they made attractive, the precious feathers, thereby preparing artistically all the splendid shields which were the gifts of the rulers; nothing common; all covered, pasted over, with precious feathers; [pasted with yellow parrot feathers, with trogonorus feathers]; painted, decorated, designed with those of the blue cotinga, the hummingbird, the red spoonbill; with gold; tufted with parrot feathers on the border; rimmed with hanging ornaments; with pendants radiating from the [lower] rim; with eagle down, with quetzal feathers, with those of the troupial, with those of the red spoonbill; with grasshopper figures on the ends of the pendants. (b.9 f.7 p.89). tlauhquecholtzontli** 73. *tlauhquecholtzontli* tlazotlanqui coztic teocuitlayo: cenca miyec in quetzalli icuecuetlacacayo: ihuical in tlamamalli, huehuetl in colotli tlachiuhtli, coztic teocuitlayo:. the costly red spoonbill headdress set off with gold, having very many quetzal feathers flaring [from it], and with it, borne upon his back, the skin drum upon a carrying frame, and decorated with gold. (b.8 f.2 p.33). xihuapalquechol** 74. *xihuapalquechol*;. turquoise-browed motmot (b.11 f.3 p.21). xiuhquechol** 75. *xiuhquechol*:. xiuhquechol (b.11 f.3 p.20). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Wed Dec 9 06:18:45 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 06:18:45 +0000 Subject: hoary spoonbill In-Reply-To: <002901ca783f$6d853680$488fa380$@net.mx> Message-ID: Dear David and Fritz, Maybe I should have said this in the previous message, but yes the bird on the left is the quecholli. The image of the double headed eagle is used here to express the identification of Cuauhquechollan with the Spanish Crown and, at the same, represent their toponym Cuauh(tli)-quecholl(i)-an. Of all people they should know what the quecholli looked like. Still, it's a beautiful example of the creation of a colonial indigenous world. Also note the sword and the macana, and of course the crown. In other places of the lienzo conquest is represented as a European sword (instead of an arrow) perforating a toponymic glyph, and the Cuauhquecholteca are depicted with a white skin contrary to their indigenous oponents. I highly recommend reading Florine Asselbergs' study of this lienzo. Un fuerte abrazo, Michel > From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx > To: oudyk at hotmail.com; schwallr at potsdam.edu > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] hoary spoonbill > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:48:27 -0600 > > Hi, Michel. Thanks for the input. If the bird on the left in your image is a > quecholli, it looks a lot more like the xiuhquecholli (Dibble and Anderson > suggest the subspecies Momotus lessoni goldmani) than the tlauhquechol/ > teoquechol, which is the bird that has been identified as the roseate > spoonbill (Ajaia ajaja), and by some as the flamingo (Phoenicopterus ruber), > although it looks for now like the flamingo identification is due to the > fact that people were just calling spoonbills “flamingos” because of the > similarities between the two species. You can see native renderings of (and > read about) both the tlauhquechol/teoquechol and the xiuhquechol in the > Florentine Codex, book 11, chapter 2, paragraph 1. Torquemada specifically > relates the 20-day ritual period quecholli to the tlauhquechol/teoquechol. > > After reading all of the very helpful comments provided by several listeros, > I decided to translate the ritual period quecholli as “La cuchareta > rosada/el proyectil” in my work in progress, adding the following footnote: > > Las fuentes novohispanas están divididas en cuanto a la traducción de la > palabra quecholli. Para Torquemada (1975-1983: III, 403, 426, 427 [libro 10, > capítulos 26, 35]), el nombre de este mes se relaciona con el teoquechol o > tlauhquechol, un ave acuático de plumas valiosas que puede ser identificada > con un grado razonable de certeza con la cucharada rosada (Ajaia ajaja). > Esta ave es llamada “flamenca” por Torquemada, pero las descripciones de > este autor y de Sahagún (1979: III, 20v, 21r [libro 11, capítulo 2, párrafo > 1]) dejan en claro que no se trata del ave que ahora llamamos “flamingo” > (Phoenicopterus ruber), sino de la cucharada rosada, especialmente porque > ambos autores hacen hincapié en el hecho de que esta ave tiene un pico > parecido al del pato. Otros autores novohispanos traducen quecholli como > algún tipo de proyectil, sea una flecha tirada con el arco, un dardo lanzado > con el atlatl o lanzadardos, o una especia de lanza (Anders/Jansen > [editores], 1996a: 41v; Doesburg/Carrera [editores], 1996: 100v; Durán, > 1967: i, 281 [libro de los ritos, capítulo 17]; Tovar, 1951: lám. 11). > > Any comments on this are more than welcome. > > Here are the references, in case anyone wants to looks this stuff up. > > Anders, Ferdinand; Jansen, Maarten E. R. G. N. (editores) > 1996a Códice Magliabechi, facsímil del ms., Graz/México, Akademische > Druck-und Verlagsanstalt/Fondo de Cultura Económica. > > Doesburg, Geert Bastiaan van; Carrera González, Florencio (editores) > 1996 Códice Ixtlilxochitl, facsímil del ms., Graz/México, Akademische > Druck-und Verlagsanstalt/Fondo de Cultura Económica. > > Durán, Diego > 1967 Historia de las Indias de Nueva España e islas de tierra firme, 2 > vols., Ángel María Garibay Kintana, editor, México, Editorial Porrúa. > > Sahagún, Bernardino de > 1974-1982 Florentine codex, general history of the things of > New Spain, 1a. ed./2a. ed./reimpresión, 13 partes, Arthur J. O. Anderson y > Charles E. Dibble, editores y traductores, Santa Fe/Salt Lake City, The > School of American Research/The University of Utah. > 1979 Códice florentino, facsímil del ms., 3 vols., México, Secretaría de > Gobernación. > > Torquemada, Juan de > 1975-1983 Monarquía indiana, de los veinte y un libros rituales y monarquía > indiana, con el origen y guerras de los indios occidentales, de sus > poblazones, descubrimiento, conquista, conversión y otras cosas maravillosas > de la mesma tierra, 7 vols., Miguel León-Portilla, coordinador, México, > Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de > México. > > Tovar, Juan de > 1951 The Tovar calendar, an illustrated Mexican manuscript ca. 1585, > reproduced with a commentary and handlist of sources on the Mexican 365-day > year (Memoirs of the Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences, vol. 11), > George Kubler y Charles Gibson, editores, New Haven, Connecticut Academy of > Arts and Sciences. > > *********************************************************** > > De: Michel Oudijk [mailto:oudyk at hotmail.com] > Enviado el: lunes, 07 de diciembre de 2009 11:18 p.m. > Para: David Wright; schwallr at potsdam.edu > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] hoary spoonbill > > Dear friends, > > I don't know much about birds but according to the people from > Quauhquechollan the Quechollin looks like they painted it in their lienzo > (see the attached photo or Florine Asselbergs' book about the lienzo). Maybe > one of you bird watchers can identified it this way. Doesn't look like a > flamenco to me though. > > Abrazo, > > Michel > > De: Michel Oudijk [mailto:oudyk at hotmail.com] > Enviado el: lunes, 07 de diciembre de 2009 11:18 p.m. > Para: David Wright; schwallr at potsdam.edu > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] hoary spoonbill > > Dear friends, > > I don't know much about birds but according to the people from > Quauhquechollan the Quechollin looks like they painted it in their lienzo > (see the attached photo or Florine Asselbergs' book about the lienzo). Maybe > one of you bird watchers can identified it this way. Doesn't look like a > flamenco to me though. > > Abrazo, > > Michel > _________________________________________________________________ New Windows 7: Simplify what you do everyday. Find the right PC for you. http://windows.microsoft.com/shop -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed Dec 9 18:08:50 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 12:08:50 -0600 Subject: hoary spoonbill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Estimado Michel: Yeah, the semasiographic expression of the toponym through the avian representations, and the visual calquing of the Hapsburg dynasty double-headed eagle, are fairly evident. My “if” was just an expression of my habit of looking for alternative hypotheses for just about everything (especially when consensus is involved), but we can be pretty sure the painter was thinking “quecholli” (or the semantic equivalent in another language) given the context of the image. The thrust of my comment was to try to determine the possible identification of this representation with the various species, quite diverse really (as Joe’s recent contribution illustrates so well), that fall under the obscure (to me) native taxonomic category of “quecholli”. Maybe this category involves the relative value of these species’ feathers in conquest-period Mesoamerican culture. An alternative hypothesis, which I think is less likely, but which shouldn’t be discarded unless there is a good reason to do so, would be that one or both of the birds are glottographic signs involving homophonous word plays, since quecholli can mean one of several species of birds, “projectile”, and/or a twenty-day ritual period, and in this tradition of pictorial writing we sometimes see eagles (cua:uhtli) used to convey the idea of forests/trees/sticks (cuahuitl), which have cuasihomophonous stems [kwa:w] and [kwaw], and vice versa. Taking these alternative meanings into acount, we can come up with a list of several hypothetical translations for the toponym Cuauhquechollan. In this case náhuatl would be the only language possible, since these meanings are only expressed in a homophonous or cuasi-homophonous manner in this language. Even when early colonial native authors provide etymologies that support one translation or another of a toponym, we often can’t rule out the possibility of folk etymologies. A more secure method involves collecting the equivalents of the toponyms in neighboring languages, since the meaning usually (but not always) passed from one language to another as a semantic loan, or calque. It’s usually a good idea to run all of the possibilities through one’s head and pour them through our analytical filters before arriving at a conclusion. Sometimes the answer lies beneath the surface. By the way, there’s a ridiculous error in the rough draft of a footnote on the probable meaning of the twenty-day ritual period quecholli that I included in my last post, in a final attempt to get some feedback for improving it. I wrote “cucharada” (spoonful) instead of “cuchareta” (spoonbill) twice! This is the sort of thing than can provide decades of embarrassment if it makes it into print. What makes me a bit uneasy is that our posts to this list are instantly archived and come up in Google searches! Fortunately we can post corrections as easily as we can post mistakes. Saludos y un abrazo, David De: Michel Oudijk [mailto:oudyk at hotmail.com] Enviado el: miércoles, 09 de diciembre de 2009 12:19 a.m. Para: David Wright; schwallr at potsdam.edu CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] hoary spoonbill Dear David and Fritz, Maybe I should have said this in the previous message, but yes the bird on the left is the quecholli. The image of the double headed eagle is used here to express the identification of Cuauhquechollan with the Spanish Crown and, at the same, represent their toponym Cuauh(tli)-quecholl(i)-an. Of all people they should know what the quecholli looked like. Still, it's a beautiful example of the creation of a colonial indigenous world. Also note the sword and the macana, and of course the crown. In other places of the lienzo conquest is represented as a European sword (instead of an arrow) perforating a toponymic glyph, and the Cuauhquecholteca are depicted with a white skin contrary to their indigenous oponents. I highly recommend reading Florine Asselbergs' study of this lienzo. Un fuerte abrazo, Michel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu Wed Dec 9 18:19:10 2009 From: Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:19:10 -0700 Subject: A different kind of bird Message-ID: With the level of interest and expertise on Mesoamerican birds on this list, perhaps someone out there has suggestions concerning the "Calixtlahuaca bird." This is an emblem of a bird depicted on a number of stone reliefs found at Calixtlahuaca (Toluca Valley, Postclassic period) by José García Payón in the 1930s. These are part of the corpus of local reliefs, distinct from the better known corpus of Mexica-style sculptures at the site. One of Emily Umberger's drawings of the bird is found on an early entry in our project blog: http://calixtlahuaca.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-was-ancient-name-of-city.html The various versions of the bird are quite similar. Some stand alone, while others are depicted on the shield of a warrior. I have wondered if this could be a depiction of the name of the ancient city, or perhaps the name of the dynasty or a ruler. There are a few modern towns called "Totoltepec" just north of Calixtlahuaca, but nothing links this suggestive toponym to the modern village of Calixtlahuaca or to the archaeological site. One interpretive difficulty is that four languages were spoken in the vicinity in Postclassic times: Nahuatl, Otomi, Mazahua, and Matlatzinca. My guess is that speakers of all four lived at the Postclassic city, but that the founders (ca. 1100 AD) and perhaps dynasty were more likely speakers of one of the non-Nahuatl languages. My father-in-law, a biologist with field experience in Mexico, identified this bird as possibly a flying turkey. So, any ideas out there on the identification of this bird, or its possible significance in reliefs at Calixtlahuaca? Or perhaps updated information on the linguistic prehistory of the Toluca Valley that might help us figure out the language of the site? (For the latter, I rely mostly on: García Castro, René 1999 Indios, territorio y poder en la provincia matlatzinca: la negociación del espacio político de los pueblos otomianos, siglos XV-XII. CIESAS, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, and El Colegio Mexiquense, Mexico City and Toluca. Some context on the sculptures can be found in: Umberger, Emily 2007 Historia del arte e Imperio Azteca: la evidencia de las esculturas. Revista Española de Antropología Americana 37:165-202. http://www.public.asu.edu/~mesmith9/Calix/Documents/Umberger-07-REAA.pdf thanks, Mike Dr. Michael E. Smith Professor of Anthropology School of Human Evolution & Social Change Arizona State University www.public.asu.edu/~mesmith9/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Wed Dec 9 19:47:51 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 20:47:51 +0100 Subject: Sahaguntine glyphs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nahuatlatoque, I'm working at the moment on Nahuatl glyphs in Sahagun's works and am wondering whether anyone is aware of any literature on the subject. Any and all tips are highly welcome! Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Dec 11 14:06:04 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:06:04 +0100 Subject: New study of the Nahuatl writing system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear friends and colleagues, If anyone is interested in seeing a fresh study of the system of writing used by the Nahua of Central Mexico in Aztec and Early Colonial times, feel free to drop me a line. My article 'Principles of Nahuatl Writing' has just been published in the journal Goettinger Beiträge zur Sprachwissenschaft, No. 16, pp. 47-81. It offers a detailed examination of the key characteristics and the principles behind Nahuatl writing, and it reviews recent attempts to categorize the system. The PDF that I can send has an advantage over the print version in showing the glyphs in color (where present). Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From fladunkin at aol.com Mon Dec 14 11:28:44 2009 From: fladunkin at aol.com (fladunkin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 06:28:44 -0500 Subject: Chia Message-ID: I would like to post a question to the members of your list serve. I am seeking to understand the importance of chia or chia oil to the Nahuatl speaking culture. Any and all information would be very much appreciated. Thank you Dan Lavender -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From joslee at unt.edu Wed Dec 16 00:44:06 2009 From: joslee at unt.edu (Lee, Jongsoo) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:44:06 -0600 Subject: symposium on Texcoco Message-ID: Dear Listeros, I am currently organizing a symposium on Texcoco (April 16-17, 2010) to be held at the University of North Texas (Denton TX, 30 minutes from DFW airport). A number of major scholars whose research has focused on pre-Hispanic and colonial Texcoco will be participating: Jerry Offner, Patrick Lesbre, Jose Contel, Fred Hicks, Eloise Quiñones Keber, Camilla Townsend, Eduardo Douglas and others. We have room for three or four more participants. If you work on a topic related to Texcoco and are interested in participating, please send a title and brief summary of your presentation at jongsoo.lee at unt.edu by the end of December. Thanks. Jongsoo Jongsoo Lee Associate Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures University of North Texas Office: 940-565-2404 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Thu Dec 31 11:05:46 2009 From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 11:05:46 +0000 Subject: Happy New Year... Message-ID: Piyalli, friends. We received the following message yesterday via our website. My Náhuatl is very rudimentary ­ I can vouch for the first and last words, but that¹s it! Please could someone kindly do their best to correct what this Japanese correspondent has written:- ³I'm Japanese. Please teach me Nahuatl. How to write in Nahuatl is not understood and it embarrasses it though I want to write the sentence of "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!". I¹m keen to know.. Please correct the sentence that I wrote. The original text : Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! In Spanish : ¡Feliz Navidad y próspero año nuevo! My sentence : Kuali Tlakatilisiluitl iuan tlasempaktiani yankuik xiuitl! I'm sorry by poor English and Nahuatl. Thanks in advance. ³ At the end of the day (literally!) I¹d just like to take the opportunity to wish everyone in this community a very Happy New Year and to say thanks for all the fascinating points that have been raised and explored this year. Ian Ian Mursell MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University Director, 'Mexicolore' 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173 www.aztecs.org Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com info at mexicolore.co.uk 1980-2009: 29 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team' (British Museum Education Service) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl