From roland.trevino at charter.net Wed Jul 1 19:48:20 2009 From: roland.trevino at charter.net (roland.trevino at charter.net) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:48:20 -0700 Subject: question about Atlatl Message-ID: I know that an Atlatl is a spear thrower used by Aztecs. What does one call in Nahuatl 'one who uses the Atlatl'? _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Jul 2 14:41:03 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:41:03 -0400 Subject: question about Atlatl In-Reply-To: <20090701154820.DIY9E.1159685.root@mp16> Message-ID: Quoting roland.trevino at charter.net: > I know that an Atlatl is a spear thrower used by Aztecs. What does > one call in Nahuatl 'one who uses the Atlatl'? > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > a person with an atlatl, Roland, would be an ahtlahuah. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Jul 6 13:06:48 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 09:06:48 -0400 Subject: Huiquipedia - Wikipedia in Nahuatl Message-ID: I just found out about a Wikipedia in Nahuatl called Huiquipedia: -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Jul 6 13:07:59 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 09:07:59 -0400 Subject: Huiquipedia - Wikipedia in Nahuatl Message-ID: I just found out about a Wikipedia in Nahuatl called Huiquipedia: http://nah.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calixatl -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jul 6 21:59:52 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 17:59:52 -0400 Subject: Huiquipedia - Wikipedia in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <4A51F72F.6030203@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Came across this sometime a few months ago, and figured, since i'm the last one to hear about anything technological, that everyone knew about it. :) Michael Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > > I just found out about a Wikipedia in Nahuatl called Huiquipedia: > > http://nah.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calixatl > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jcarlos at gruposui.com Tue Jul 7 00:40:00 2009 From: jcarlos at gruposui.com (Juan Carlos) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 19:40:00 -0500 Subject: Ixnahualtongo y Xocongo Message-ID: Si existe un barrio llamado Santa Cruz Acatlán, efectivamente se encuentra dentro de la colonia Tránsito, justo detrás de la antigua Iglesia de San Antonio Abad cuyas ruinas están justo en la calzada del mismo nombre, ahí, dos calles hacia el sureste de dicho templo se halla el de la Santa Cruz Acatlán precisamente a unos metros de la calle de Xocongo. Del mismo modo podemos encontrar la iglesia de La Concepción Ixnahualtongo detrás del mercado de Sonora justo en la esquina de las calles Cuitlahuac y Privada Cuitlahuac esta última a su vez es la prolongación de la calle de Ixnahualtongo que corre hacia el sur, paralela a la viga, desde tiempos antiguos para unirse al antiguo Barrio de La Resurrección que se localiza a unos metros de la Avenida del Taller. Y como un dato más, en la esquina de las calles de Taller y Clavijero en la colonia Tránsito se encuentra parroquia, antigua capilla, de la Santa Cruz y la Preciosa Sangre de Cristo, edificación del siglo XVI del tipo franciscano aunque muy reformada y que se conoce popularmente como "la santa crucita" ya que originalmente fue ayuda de la Santa Cruz Acatlán que está cerca de ahí. También es muy probable que hubiese existido un antiguo camino que uniese al barrio de Acatlán y al de Ixnahualtongo en lo que hoy se conoce como callejón de San Antonio Abad y también es probable que este que cruzase el canal de la Viga por el antiguo Puente de Pipis. Saludos! _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sun Jul 12 15:49:50 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 17:49:50 +0200 Subject: The particle 'in' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello everyone, I'm trying at the moment to track down studies of the Nahuatl particle 'in'. I seem to recall that an article with exactly this focus was published in the '60s or 'early '70s, but I can't seem to find the reference. I thought it was in IJAL ,but it looks like I was mistaken. I would be very grateful if some kind reader could please help me out here. Thanks! Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sun Jul 12 16:00:23 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:00:23 +0200 Subject: John Bierhorst's Romances (the literary kind, that is) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello again, My copy of John Bierhorst's excellent edition of the Romances arrived this week and I haven't been able to put it down. Apart from the wealth of details and ideas it contains, some of which remain as controversial but positively thought-provoking as his Cantares, there is also information on a new web page where one can search the Romances and discover additional gems of information. The question is: Does anyone know when the page, , will be operable? It was advertised to open up for business at the same time as the printed edition, but this is not the case. There is nothing as yet to click on, just a repository where one can leave one's e-mail address -- this crashed when I tried to use it. I imagine the site will be up and running very soon, and will surely be an excellent new resource. Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 17:30:46 2009 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:30:46 -0500 Subject: The particle 'in' In-Reply-To: <49784.84.132.243.56.1247413790.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Hello, You might try Jane Rosenthal as an author. She worked on "in" when she was working on her Masters in Linguistics at the University of Chicago at about that time. Kay Read On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I'm trying at the moment to track down studies of the Nahuatl particle > 'in'. I seem to recall that an article with exactly this focus was > published in the '60s or 'early '70s, but I can't seem to find the > reference. I thought it was in IJAL ,but it looks like I was mistaken. I > would be very grateful if some kind reader could please help me out here. > Thanks! > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gordon Whittaker > Professor > Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 12 17:57:05 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 13:57:05 -0400 Subject: The particle 'in' In-Reply-To: <3eb115df0907121030x7c820204x1665acce86dbcdb1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Holatzin, Gordon, I don't know the answer to your question. It just made me think of some of my favorite Nahuatl terms-- i:ntzin and o:ntzin, and then "in i:ntzin," sometimes written inintzin. Do you have Andrews II? He goes into /in/, the vocable that introduces clauses in pretty great detail throughout his book. I don't remember his referencing an article such as you're referring to if he read it. Michael > > On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> I'm trying at the moment to track down studies of the Nahuatl particle >> 'in'. I seem to recall that an article with exactly this focus was >> published in the '60s or 'early '70s, but I can't seem to find the >> reference. I thought it was in IJAL ,but it looks like I was mistaken. I >> would be very grateful if some kind reader could please help me out here. >> Thanks! >> >> Best wishes, >> Gordon >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Gordon Whittaker >> Professor >> Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik >> Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie >> Universitaet Goettingen >> Humboldtallee 19 >> 37073 Goettingen >> Germany >> tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 >> tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Claudine.Hartau at HVN.uni-hamburg.de Mon Jul 13 08:28:35 2009 From: Claudine.Hartau at HVN.uni-hamburg.de (Hartau, Dr. Claudine) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:28:35 +0200 Subject: The particle 'in' In-Reply-To: <49784.84.132.243.56.1247413790.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Dear Gordon, I think you mean Jane Rosenthal: "The omnipresent problem of omnipresent in in Classical Nahuatl", MA thesis 1971, University of Chicago. I can make you a copy, if you wish, we have it in our library. Best wishes, Claudine *************************************************** Dr. Claudine Hartau Persönliche Referentin des Vizepräsidenten Prof. Dr. Holger Fischer Universität Hamburg Edmund-Siemers-Allee 1 20146 Hamburg Tel. 040/ 4 28 38-5293 Fax 040/ 4 28 38-6994 -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] Im Auftrag von Gordon Whittaker Gesendet: Sonntag, 12. Juli 2009 17:50 An: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Betreff: [Nahuat-l] The particle 'in' Hello everyone, I'm trying at the moment to track down studies of the Nahuatl particle 'in'. I seem to recall that an article with exactly this focus was published in the '60s or 'early '70s, but I can't seem to find the reference. I thought it was in IJAL ,but it looks like I was mistaken. I would be very grateful if some kind reader could please help me out here. Thanks! Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Jul 13 12:37:29 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:37:29 -0400 Subject: Bierhorst on web Message-ID: I just checked the web page: http://www.utdigital.org/ And it is up and running, but it indicates that the full digital version will be up and running after the print version. On the site you can sign up for an e-mail notification of when the web page is launched. -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Mon Jul 13 23:13:46 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 01:13:46 +0200 Subject: On in Message-ID: Dear Fran, Kay, Michael and Claudine, Thank you all very much for your very helpful comments. And thanks, Claudine, for your offer concerning a copy of Jane Rosenthal's MA thesis, for which I would be eternally grateful. Let me know if there's anything in Göttingen I could send you in return (photocopies, euros, jade, a few quetzal feathers). We could set up a kind of kula ring, now that Mesoamericanist Studies in Germany has been moved up on the 'endangered species' list to 'almost extinct'. I seem to recall that someone either gave a paper on IN or published an article (as opposed to a thesis) specifically on the subject, and that IN was in the title. I had tried in Andrews and elsewhere to track it down, but without success. I remember seeing the reference in the mid '80s, and do recall that the author was a woman, one whom I've actually met, but my recollection was that the author in question died some time afterwards, which is why I feel sure that someone else besides Rosenthal had published on IN. Now, if only I could remember the name ... Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Mon Jul 13 23:30:28 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 01:30:28 +0200 Subject: Bierhorst on the web In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Fritz, No, it's still the same as when I checked. Just a skeleton -- a rather pretty one at that --, but a skeleton all the same. The book states (on p. xiii) that the online edition is already up and running, which is unfortunately not yet the case. And, as I mentioned, the site itself only allows registration of an e-mail address so that one can be notified when the site gets going. The web page 'About' [the Ballads of the Lords of New Spain] states that the print and online versions are to "launch concurrently", not after each other. But that's fine. Does anyone happen to know when the online edition gets running? Best, Gordon > Date: 13 Jul 2009 08:37:29 -0400 > From: "John F. Schwaller" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Bierhorst on web > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > I just checked the web page: > > http://www.utdigital.org/ > > And it is up and running, but it indicates that the full digital version > will be up and running after the print version. On the site you can sign > up for an e-mail notification of when the web page is launched. > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President, > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Tue Jul 14 02:48:18 2009 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:48:18 -0700 Subject: On in In-Reply-To: <49752.84.132.195.35.1247526826.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Jane Rosenthal also had some article appear in the CLS papers on this subject in the early 70s, the 1972 “Chicago Which Hunt” and the 1973 “You Take the High Node and I’ll Take the Low Node”. Ronald Langacker then commented on Classical Nahuatl relative clauses in IJAL (1974, v. 41). Also in the CLS papers Frances Karttunen responded to Rosenthal’s and Langacker’s previous articles in 1976. --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Gordon Whittaker wrote: From: Gordon Whittaker Subject: [Nahuat-l] On in To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 7:13 PM Dear Fran, Kay, Michael and Claudine, Thank you all very much for your very helpful comments. And thanks, Claudine, for your offer concerning a copy of Jane Rosenthal's MA thesis, for which I would be eternally grateful. Let me know if there's anything in Göttingen I could send you in return (photocopies, euros, jade, a few quetzal feathers). We could set up a kind of kula ring, now that Mesoamericanist Studies in Germany has been moved up on the 'endangered species' list to 'almost extinct'. I seem to recall that someone either gave a paper on IN or published an article (as opposed to a thesis) specifically on the subject, and that IN was in the title. I had tried in Andrews and elsewhere to track it down, but without success. I remember seeing the reference in the mid '80s, and do recall that the author was a woman, one whom I've actually met, but my recollection was that the author in question died some time afterwards, which is why I feel sure that someone else besides Rosenthal had published on IN. Now, if only I could remember the name ... Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 14:14:32 2009 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:14:32 -0500 Subject: On in In-Reply-To: <135517.21229.qm@web111507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello Again, Gordan, your description of this person pretty much fits Jane to a tee, except that I can't answer for whether you had ever met her or not. I suspect that you have though, since before her death a few years ago, she was a regular attendee at conferences. Kay On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Michael Swanton wrote: > Jane Rosenthal also had some article appear in the CLS papers on this > subject in the early 70s, the 1972 “Chicago Which Hunt” and the 1973 “You > Take the High Node and I’ll Take the Low Node”. Ronald Langacker then > commented on Classical Nahuatl relative clauses in IJAL (1974, v. 41). Also > in the CLS papers Frances Karttunen responded to Rosenthal’s and Langacker’s > previous articles in 1976. > > > --- On *Mon, 7/13/09, Gordon Whittaker * wrote: > > > From: Gordon Whittaker > Subject: [Nahuat-l] On in > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 7:13 PM > > > Dear Fran, Kay, Michael and Claudine, > > Thank you all very much for your very helpful comments. And thanks, > Claudine, for your offer concerning a copy of Jane Rosenthal's MA thesis, > for which I would be eternally grateful. Let me know if there's anything > in Göttingen I could send you in return (photocopies, euros, jade, a few > quetzal feathers). We could set up a kind of kula ring, now that > Mesoamericanist Studies in Germany has been moved up on the 'endangered > species' list to 'almost extinct'. > > I seem to recall that someone either gave a paper on IN or published an > article (as opposed to a thesis) specifically on the subject, and that IN > was in the title. I had tried in Andrews and elsewhere to track it down, > but without success. I remember seeing the reference in the mid '80s, and > do recall that the author was a woman, one whom I've actually met, but my > recollection was that the author in question died some time afterwards, > which is why I feel sure that someone else besides Rosenthal had published > on IN. Now, if only I could remember the name ... > > Best, > Gordon > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gordon Whittaker > Professor > Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Tue Jul 14 18:44:50 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:44:50 +0200 Subject: Jane Rosenthal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, Thank you, Fran and Kay, for confirming that the author of the IN contributions was Jane Rosenthal -- I had indeed vaguely recollected that her name was either Jane or Joan. I only had one evening chatting with her together with Una Canger after a conference and still remember her as a charming and very modest person (with a great sense of humour). It really is sad when good people die young. Thanks also to Fran and Michael for the refs to the CLS papers. I imagine that fathoming the ins and outs of IN will probably keep scholars busy for some time to come. Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Jul 14 17:48:36 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:48:36 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl workshop at Yale Message-ID: Listeros, One more thing. I think there is a consensus among Nahuatl scholars that it would be nice to have a regular yearly workshop where people could get together and work on headache-producing morphs, words, texts, etc., from any Nahuatl variant over space and time. There would no formalities, no papers presented, just friends getting together to talk shop (going out and eating together would be nice too). I am proposing Yale as the site for these meetings, and since Delfina de la Cruz and I will be there the week of August 24th attending language TA training, I would like to know if anyone would like to participate in a workshop, perhaps Friday and Saturday, August 28 and 29. There will be no support for travel, food or lodging for anyone, and Yale only needs to provide us with a classroom. Any takers? If the dates are too soon, we'll set a time for later in the year. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Jul 14 17:06:16 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:06:16 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl distance courses Message-ID: Listeros, We at the Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas taught an introductory level distance course in Classical and Modern Nahuatl at Yale last year. We will teach the same course at Yale, Columbia and NYU this next school year, and we will be developing the curriculum for intermediate and advanced level studies. These courses will be taught live by myself and my native speaking TAs using Adobe Acrobat Connect Pro, a web based program which permits live audio and video interaction between instructor and students, as well as an interactive whiteboard and the presentation of pre-recorded audio-visual material. Each course includes two hours per week of Classical Nahuatl and three hours per week of Modern Huastecan Nahuatl. We would like to provide students with language tools and cultural information that will allow them to better understand not only Nahua Civilization but all aspects of the economic, political, cultural, social and historical evolution of Mexico. At some point in the near future, we plan to offer enrollment to anyone in the world with an internet connection. If you are interested in taking these courses, please contact Jean Silk (jean.silk at yale.edu), Assistant Chair for the Yale University Council on Latin American & Iberian Studies. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 01:14:23 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:14:23 -0400 Subject: On in: Calling attention to the french again Message-ID: I suppose you already have looked at Launey's dissertation, but I just wanted to mention that he has a very good analysis of the functions of in. Magnus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mcdo0030 at umn.edu Wed Jul 15 12:01:59 2009 From: mcdo0030 at umn.edu (Kelly McDonough) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:01:59 -0500 Subject: mexicah tiahui? Message-ID: Piyalli tocompalmeh, tocompalmeh. Nicpiya ce tlahtlaniliztli. I have been seeing Danza Azteca groups here (and in other parts) using the phrase "Mexicah tiahui." I confess my ignorance of all things Danza Azteca, and that when I see this phrase all I can think is "you are an aunt" (obviously not what they are intending) or tiahuih "we are content / have what is necessary" or maybe ahhuic "here and there, back and forth" (Karttunen). I am told that it means "Mexica people onward" but am wondering about how that all shakes out. Thanks for any clarifications you can offer. Kelly Kelly McDonough University of Minnesota - Twin Cities Department of Spanish & Portuguese Studies 612/624-5529 mcdo0030 at umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 15 13:03:03 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:03:03 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <065BBFBAA29A42128097FD9E4F967E53@KELLY> Message-ID: "We are going" plural subject pronoun ti- + the verb "yauh" -> tiyahuih Quoting Kelly McDonough : > Piyalli tocompalmeh, tocompalmeh. Nicpiya ce tlahtlaniliztli. I have been > seeing Danza Azteca groups here (and in other parts) using the phrase > "Mexicah tiahui." I confess my ignorance of all things Danza Azteca, and > that when I see this phrase all I can think is "you are an aunt" (obviously > not what they are intending) or tiahuih "we are content / have what is > necessary" or maybe ahhuic "here and there, back and forth" (Karttunen). I > am told that it means "Mexica people onward" but am wondering about how that > all shakes out. > > Thanks for any clarifications you can offer. > > Kelly > > > > Kelly McDonough > > University of Minnesota - Twin Cities > > Department of Spanish & Portuguese Studies > > 612/624-5529 > > mcdo0030 at umn.edu > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 15 14:07:08 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:07:08 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <20090715151522.19824fdt95oog8dm@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de> Message-ID: Quoting Henry Kammler : > ?·¾‚ˆ§ƒ?¶¥??š?§???¶??¨nŠ1i???¢³?¶›—/¨????i¨Ÿ?k>Š¦¡?Ÿ?©^r? > V¬²'—???j'—/¾ «>?(?·¾?¦k&??¶?‡/¢·?{~²«y§b—/«y?ž,?Wˆ¶???je{??¦XŸ‰?¨nj?¶­???¢u???›?(?®‹>jw~u©?³?«¬{?­ ?W y?­©?b¢¾i?j{^? > .•?j?¯??©?¶+??§??±?©¨³????zV­y?¢¹¬1¯§‹ š ??š¶_¦j)bž¥Š?jš¶Yb²?jk"¢¸!¶??©¬ŠŠ?¢–f§?)??­ Henry Kammler's message is written in a character script my computer can't decipher, so I can't comment. Hopefully, the following is not redundant. A couple of additional ideas about "tiahui". It's a combination of two verbs: /ya:/ and /hui/, which exist independently, seeminly most often with directional prefixes. For example: anhualhuih 'you all come' Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 15 15:13:52 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:13:52 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <3d2f06780907150710l422375f8wf850323cba8a3e7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Tlaxtlahui, Kenneth, ihuan Henry. Yes, Andrews II calls "yahui" a modern dialect form that is "substandard," or something to that effect. And, yes, one would expect a "Ma" in Nahuatl if the verb is supposed to translate the Spanish imperative "Vamos!" michael Quoting Kenneth Thomas : > To (I hope!) clarify Henry's message: >> "We are going" >> >> plural subject pronoun ti-  + the verb "yauh" -> tiyahuih > > Exactly. This is probably one of the more common forms in modern > dialects. "Classical" Nahuatl commonly (?) has /tihuih/ "we are > going", maybe that's why it wasn't so readily recognizable. > > It's a good example of simplified Nahuatl that is used as an identity > token by concheros and danzantes, because with the alleged translation > "adelante!" you would rather expect an optative form in the sense > "vamos!" (/ma tihuiyah/ or related forms). > > Ma niwîya! > Henry K > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: >> >> Quoting Henry Kammler : >> >> > ?·¾??§??¶¥????§???¶??¨n? 1i???¢³?¶??/¨ ????i¨??k>? ¦¡???©^r? >> > V¬²' ????j'?/¾?«>?( ?·¾? ¦k&??¶??/¢·?{~² >> «y§b?/«y??,?W?¶???je{??¦X???¨nj?¶ ­??? ¢u??? ??( ?®?>jw~u©?³?«¬{? >> ­??W y?­©?b¢ ¾i?j{^? >> > .??j?¯??©?¶+??§??±?©¨³??? ?zV­y?¢¹¬1¯§? ? ?? ?¶_¦j)b? ¥??j >> ?¶Yb²?jk"¢¸!¶??©¬???¢?f§?)??­ >> >> Henry Kammler's message is written in a character script my computer >> can't decipher, so I can't comment. Hopefully, the following is not >> redundant. >> >> A couple of additional ideas about "tiahui". >> >> It's a combination of two verbs: /ya:/ and /hui/, which exist >> independently, seeminly most often with directional prefixes. >> >> For example: anhualhuih 'you all come' >> >> Michael >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From alex at wavegeneration.ca Wed Jul 15 15:01:45 2009 From: alex at wavegeneration.ca (Alex Saba) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:01:45 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl - Translation Project Message-ID: Hello to everyone on the list and pleasure to meet you! I work for a production company located in Montreal, Canada and we're currently looking to translate a script from English to Nahuatl and another from English to Quechua. We're looking at approximately 700 words for each language. The context is political and the final product will be fun, educational entertainment. If you're interested please send me a brief overview of your experience and if possible, a sample of previous work in those languages. I should mention we're also looking for native speakers with the following criteria: Nahuatl - Male, 20-50 Quechua - Male, 20-40 (Located in Montreal, Toronto, New-York or Los Angeles) If you have any questions, don't hesitate. The selected candidates will receive compensation for their work. Thanks in advance! Alex _____ Alex Saba Wave Generation Inc 55 Mont Royal West, Suite 970 Montréal, Quebec H2T 2S6 Canada (Map) Tel: 514.289.9537 ext. 204 Fax: 514.380.5191 Visit us at www.wavegeneration.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wglogo.gif Type: image/gif Size: 8318 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Jul 15 18:59:22 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:59:22 -0400 Subject: Encoding Message-ID: Colleagues, With more sophisticated e-mail programs, there are now sophisticated encoding routines to provide a wide range of characters. Unfortunately many listserv programs and e-mail readers cannot handle these codes. Please send messages in ASCII Unicode for best results. -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 19:27:21 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:27:21 -0400 Subject: vamonos mexicanos Message-ID: No, Mario, those forms are ungrammatical Contrarily to Spanish *irse *Nahuatl /yaw/ is an intransitive verb and cannot take the object prefixes -te:ch- and -ame:ch-. As Dr Mccafferty mentioned it would often be introduced by the particle /ma:/ in the exhortative "let's" form and it would also as you take the optative plural suffix /-ka:n/. In Hueyapan Nahuatl the exhoratative of yoh /yaw/ is /ma:n tiyaka:n/ and is also used as a greeting corresponding to Spanish "vamonos" (vamonos/man tiyaka:n is used to greet someone who is walking). The honorific form is made with the transitive verb /wi:ka/ "to carry" and the exhortative would be /ma:n ximowikaka:n/ "vayense (R)" Magnus Pharao > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: > To: Michael McCafferty , Kenneth Thomas < > kthomas at alumni.williams.edu> > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:53:05 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] mexicah tiahui? > > Would it not be: > > Ma xitechyahuican > ¡Vamonos! > > or > > Ma ximechyahuican > ¡Vallense! > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Jul 17 14:07:05 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:07:05 -0400 Subject: Archives for encoded messages Message-ID: Colleagues, If you have not been able to read messages because of encoding problems, please consult the Nahuatl archives. All messages are housed there an in a format that can be read from most any web browser http://www.famsi.org/pipermail/nahuatl/ -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Tue Jul 21 16:37:05 2009 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:37:05 -0700 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <20090715111352.tzyh7ycyogkg8ok8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Andrews states: "There exist dialectal variants for the present indicative VNCs with plural-number subjects built on the stem (ya-hui) instead of (hui)…These are not, however, considered good usage" (p. 98).   Almost all dialects of Nahuatl use a non-suppletive stem of a shape like yahui in the present (Una Canger has written on this). Such a stem also appears in colonial writings. It is “classical” Nahuatl that is exceptional and probably innovative, while the “modern dialects” may very well turn out to be more conservative.   I think we need to be careful in using classical Nahuatl as the baseline for evaluating good or bad usage or grammar in other varieties of Nahuatl that have only been documented more recently. --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Michael McCafferty wrote: From: Michael McCafferty Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] mexicah tiahui? To: "Kenneth Thomas" Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 11:13 AM Tlaxtlahui, Kenneth, ihuan Henry. Yes, Andrews II calls "yahui" a modern dialect form that is "substandard," or something to that effect. And, yes, one would expect a "Ma" in Nahuatl if the verb is supposed to translate the Spanish imperative "Vamos!" michael Quoting Kenneth Thomas : > To (I hope!) clarify Henry's message: >> "We are going" >> >> plural subject pronoun ti-  + the verb "yauh" -> tiyahuih > > Exactly. This is probably one of the more common forms in modern > dialects. "Classical" Nahuatl commonly (?) has /tihuih/ "we are > going", maybe that's why it wasn't so readily recognizable. > > It's a good example of simplified Nahuatl that is used as an identity > token by concheros and danzantes, because with the alleged translation > "adelante!" you would rather expect an optative form in the sense > "vamos!" (/ma tihuiyah/ or related forms). > > Ma niwîya! > Henry K > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: >> >> Quoting Henry Kammler : >> >> > ?·¾??§??¶¥????§???¶??¨n? 1i???¢³?¶??/¨ ????i¨??k>? ¦¡???©^r? >> > V¬²' ????j'?/¾?«>?( ?·¾? ¦k&??¶??/¢·?{~² >> «y§b?/«y??,?W?¶???je{??¦X???¨nj?¶ ­??? ¢u??? ??( ?®?>jw~u©?³?«¬{? >> ­??W y?­©?b¢ ¾i?j{^? >> > .??j?¯??©?¶+??§??±?©¨³??? ?zV­y?¢¹¬1¯§? ? ?? ?¶_¦j)b? ¥??j >> ?¶Yb²?jk"¢¸!¶??©¬???¢?f§?)??­ >> >> Henry Kammler's message is written in a character script my computer >> can't decipher, so I can't comment. Hopefully, the following is not >> redundant. >> >> A couple of additional ideas about "tiahui". >> >> It's a combination of two verbs: /ya:/ and /hui/, which exist >> independently, seeminly most often with directional prefixes. >> >> For example: anhualhuih 'you all come' >> >> Michael >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jul 21 17:15:49 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:15:49 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <537760.61851.qm@web111504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting Michael Swanton : > > > > > Andrews > states: "There exist dialectal variants for the present indicative VNCs > with plural-number subjects built on the stem (ya-hui) instead of (hui)?These > are not, however, considered good usage" (p. 98). > > > > Almost all > dialects of Nahuatl use a non-suppletive stem of a shape like yahui in the > present (Una Canger has written on this). Such a stem also appears in > colonial > writings. It is ?classical? Nahuatl that is exceptional and probably > innovative, > while the ?modern dialects? may very well turn out to be more conservative. > > > > I think we > need to be careful in using classical Nahuatl as the baseline for evaluating > good or bad usage or grammar in other varieties of Nahuatl that have > only been > documented more recently. > > \ Michael: Talk to Andrews; don't talk to me. I don't speak for him. In this case, what I tried to do was let you know what I recalled concerning *his* point of view from reading his second book on grammar. :-) Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jul 21 18:13:31 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:13:31 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <20090721131549.gavz83g3k4os4ksk@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Michael: I meant to add that my viewpoint on the matter of yahui, and grammar in general, is that all native-speaker grammars are equally good. All best, Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > > Quoting Michael Swanton : > >> >> >> >> >> Andrews >> states: "There exist dialectal variants for the present indicative VNCs >> with plural-number subjects built on the stem (ya-hui) instead of >> (hui)?These >> are not, however, considered good usage" (p. 98). >> >> >> >> Almost all >> dialects of Nahuatl use a non-suppletive stem of a shape like yahui in the >> present (Una Canger has written on this). Such a stem also appears in >> colonial >> writings. It is ?classical? Nahuatl that is exceptional and probably >> innovative, >> while the ?modern dialects? may very well turn out to be more conservative. >> >> >> >> I think we >> need to be careful in using classical Nahuatl as the baseline for evaluating >> good or bad usage or grammar in other varieties of Nahuatl that have >> only been >> documented more recently. >> >> > \ > > Michael: > > Talk to Andrews; don't talk to me. I don't speak for him. In this case, > what I tried to do was let you know what I recalled concerning *his* > point of view from reading his second book on grammar. > > :-) > > Michael > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 22 15:25:07 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:25:07 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <82305472-09B7-4D69-9A88-187D6B6D9D2B@me.com> Message-ID: I don't think you understood my point, John. By "grammar" I didn't mean "grammar book," I meant "grammar". Saludos, Michael Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Michael and listeros, > Then perhaps someone can recommend a good recently written (within > the last, say, 50 years) grammar of any variant of Nahuatl written by > a native speaker. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > > > On Jul 21, 2009, at 1:13 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> Michael: >> >> I meant to add that my viewpoint on the matter of yahui, and grammar in >> general, is that all native-speaker grammars are equally good. >> >> >> All best, >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Michael McCafferty : >> >>> >>> >>> Quoting Michael Swanton : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Andrews >>>> states: "There exist dialectal variants for the present indicative VNCs >>>> with plural-number subjects built on the stem (ya-hui) instead of >>>> (hui)?These >>>> are not, however, considered good usage" (p. 98). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Almost all >>>> dialects of Nahuatl use a non-suppletive stem of a shape like >>>> yahui in the >>>> present (Una Canger has written on this). Such a stem also appears in >>>> colonial >>>> writings. It is ?classical? Nahuatl that is exceptional and probably >>>> innovative, >>>> while the ?modern dialects? may very well turn out to be more >>>> conservative. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think we >>>> need to be careful in using classical Nahuatl as the baseline for >>>> evaluating >>>> good or bad usage or grammar in other varieties of Nahuatl that have >>>> only been >>>> documented more recently. >>>> >>>> >>> \ >>> >>> Michael: >>> >>> Talk to Andrews; don't talk to me. I don't speak for him. In this case, >>> what I tried to do was let you know what I recalled concerning *his* >>> point of view from reading his second book on grammar. >>> >>> :-) >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Jul 22 14:26:39 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:26:39 -0500 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <20090721141331.l0aoccqazcw88cgg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Michael and listeros, Then perhaps someone can recommend a good recently written (within the last, say, 50 years) grammar of any variant of Nahuatl written by a native speaker. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com On Jul 21, 2009, at 1:13 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Michael: > > I meant to add that my viewpoint on the matter of yahui, and grammar > in > general, is that all native-speaker grammars are equally good. > > > All best, > > Michael > > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> >> >> Quoting Michael Swanton : >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Andrews >>> states: "There exist dialectal variants for the present indicative >>> VNCs >>> with plural-number subjects built on the stem (ya-hui) instead of >>> (hui)?These >>> are not, however, considered good usage" (p. 98). >>> >>> >>> >>> Almost all >>> dialects of Nahuatl use a non-suppletive stem of a shape like >>> yahui in the >>> present (Una Canger has written on this). Such a stem also appears >>> in >>> colonial >>> writings. It is ?classical? Nahuatl that is exceptional and probably >>> innovative, >>> while the ?modern dialects? may very well turn out to be more >>> conservative. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think we >>> need to be careful in using classical Nahuatl as the baseline for >>> evaluating >>> good or bad usage or grammar in other varieties of Nahuatl that have >>> only been >>> documented more recently. >>> >>> >> \ >> >> Michael: >> >> Talk to Andrews; don't talk to me. I don't speak for him. In this >> case, >> what I tried to do was let you know what I recalled concerning *his* >> point of view from reading his second book on grammar. >> >> :-) >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Fri Jul 24 00:08:12 2009 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:08:12 -0700 Subject: Me:xi'co = moon navel, maguey navel, E.T.'s navel....?? Message-ID: Hi again, As if /2012, In Lakech, and Mexica Tiahui /had not burnt out our little grey cells....... The name Mexico has been interpreted by new Age types as "the place of the navel of the moon," "the place of the navel of the maguey" My question is, if the word is Me:xi'co (long vowel E, and glottal stop after the short vowel I), what would be the argument for or against these two interpretations? And if this is not correct, what would be? I understand that the Modern Nahuatl name for Mexico is: "Mexco." Would that have some linguistic root in the meaning of the word in classic times? 1. I argue that the "creators" of these two analysis of Mexico ignore vowel length and glottal stops.... Am I wrong? 2. If Huitzilopochtli was seen as a tribal/solar deity, and he had just "dismembered" his sister Coyolxauhqui (who some claim is the moon... but I think she is a terrestrial deity that symbolizes the "old guard" of Teotihuacan and the Toltecs... but I digress again) at Coatepec (that then becomes the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan), why would the name of his capital be related to the moon? 3. If the name means the navel of the maguey..... would it not be incongruous, since at that time the island of Mexico was a very wet and probably cold alpine area, not the best environment for an agave.....? 4. I understand that Me:xi'co means the place of the Me:xi'ca.... which means the "people of Mexi." is there a study which I can point to that shows this etymology? Mario, always ready to learn..... I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD www.mexicayotl.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Jul 24 01:46:33 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:46:33 -0500 Subject: Me:xi'co = moon navel, maguey navel, E.T.'s navel....?? In-Reply-To: <4A68FB6C.50704@cox.net> Message-ID: Mariotzin huan listeros: me:tz-tli + xi:c-tli + -co = me:tzxi:cco (en el ombligo de la luna) me-tl + xi:c-tli + -co= mexi:cco (en el ombligo del maguey) Neither of these resembles me:xihco (Mexico) The only thing we can assume is that is that the root of me:xihco is the unattested noun "me:xihtli". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (en EU) Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org On Jul 23, 2009, at 7:08 PM, micc2 wrote: > Hi again, > > As if 2012, In Lakech, and Mexica Tiahui had not burnt out our > little grey cells....... > > The name Mexico has been interpreted by new Age types as "the place > of the navel of the moon," "the place of the navel of the maguey" > > My question is, if the word is Me:xi'co (long vowel E, and glottal > stop after the short vowel I), what would be the argument for or > against these two interpretations? And if this is not correct, what > would be? > > I understand that the Modern Nahuatl name for Mexico is: "Mexco." > Would that have some linguistic root in the meaning of the word in > classic times? > I argue that the "creators" of these two analysis of Mexico ignore > vowel length and glottal stops.... Am I wrong? > If Huitzilopochtli was seen as a tribal/solar deity, and he had just > "dismembered" his sister Coyolxauhqui (who some claim is the > moon... but I think she is a terrestrial deity that symbolizes the > "old guard" of Teotihuacan and the Toltecs... but I digress again) > at Coatepec (that then becomes the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan), > why would the name of his capital be related to the moon? > If the name means the navel of the maguey..... would it not be > incongruous, since at that time the island of Mexico was a very wet > and probably cold alpine area, not the best environment for an > agave.....? > I understand that Me:xi'co means the place of the Me:xi'ca.... which > means the "people of Mexi." is there a study which I can point to > that shows this etymology? > > Mario, always ready to learn..... > > I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: > > "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz > > > Mario E. Aguilar, PhD > www.mexicayotl.net > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Jul 24 01:54:50 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:54:50 -0500 Subject: One more: teotihuacan Message-ID: Listeros, Here's a proposed morphology for Teotihuacan that we worked on in class today. We're going to assume that we're working with a "t" variant. teo-t, "dios, sagrado" ti-t, "fire" huah, "dueño(s) de..." ca, "ligatura para sustantives agentivos" n, "sufijo locativo" teotihuahcan, "lugar de los dueños del fuego sagrado" John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (en EU) Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 13:44:16 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:44:16 -0500 Subject: teotihuacan etymology Message-ID: Dear. Dr. Sullivan The proposed analysis of Teotihuacan seems pretty far stretched. Firstly why assume that it is from a t dialect - teotihuacan is well within the central dialect area where tl would be expected, (although of course it might not always have been) - and use of the name itself is attested only in a -tl dialect, classical Nahuatl. Secondly the etymology requires i not just a t-dialect but also an i-dialect since central dialects tend to have /tle/ as the root for fire. Thirdly splitting up the locative suffix /ka:n/ into an agentive and a -n locative suffix seems completely unwarranted - to my knowledge no grammarian has made this analysis before, all seeing -/ka:n/ and /ya:n/ as single morphemes. I would propose that a much better analysis would be: teo - divine, god, holy, mystic ti - causative suffix (the one used on nouns to form a denominal verb meaning to become as in /tla:kati/ "be born") hua- passive/non-specific agent suffix can - locative suffix "place where someone becomes (a) god" Magnus Pharao Hansen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Jul 24 21:27:29 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:27:29 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Aztlan] J. Paul Getty Aztec Exhibit coming] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [Aztlan] J. Paul Getty Aztec Exhibit coming From: "michael ruggeri" Date: Fri, July 24, 2009 11:58 am To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Listeros, I will re-print this announcement from Art Daily in full since it is an exhibit announcement. Mike Ruggeri LOS ANGELES, CA.- The J. Paul Getty Museum announces "The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire," an exhibition showcasing masterworks of Aztec sculpture—among them recent archaeological discoveries—which will be juxtaposed with 16th- to 18th-century illustrations that reflect European interpretations of Aztec culture. The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire, on view at the Getty Villa from March 25 through July 5, 2010, represents the Getty Villa's first display of antiquities from outside the ancient Mediterranean, and is scheduled to coincide with Los Angeles celebrations of the bicentennial of Mexico’s independence and the centennial of the Mexican revolution. The exhibition traces European efforts to understand the New World by viewing it through the lens of its own classical past. Following Hernán Cortés's conquest of the great city of Tenochtitlan in 1520, Europeans confronted a culture that was profoundly unfamiliar. When the Franciscan missionary Bernardino de Sahagún compiled a history of Aztec culture up to the conquest, known as the Florentine Codex, he created a parallel pantheon, identifying the principal Aztec deities with their Roman counterparts: Huitzilopochtli is named “otro Hercules” (another Hercules) while Tezcatlipoca was likened to Jupiter, and so on. In this way, Sahagún and his local informants drew upon Graeco-Roman paradigms to assist Europeans in understanding Aztec religious beliefs. These early encounters with the civilizations of the Americas coincided with Renaissance Europe’s rediscovery of its own classical past. Europeans were fascinated with the Aztecs and other cultures of the New World. Artifacts from the Americas made their way back to European private collections, where they also inspired festivals and pageants, including performances of classical theater staged in New World settings. In the 18th century, scholars of comparative religion such as Bernard Picart compared Quetzalcoatl and Mercury, rejecting the demonization of what were previously seen as pagan deities. “Although Graeco-Roman and Aztec cultures are distinct historical phenomena, and developed in isolation from one another, Europeans applied familiar frames of reference to a New World that was largely unfathomable,” explains J. Paul Getty Museum antiquities curator Claire Lyons. “Bringing these monumental cult statues, reliefs, and votive artifacts to Los Angeles and showing them in the Mediterranean setting of the Getty Villa offers an incredible chance to explore a little known episode: the dialogue between Aztec culture and classical antiquity that was sparked in the age of exploration, carried forward during the Enlightenment, and which continues to be informative in the present.” The Aztec monuments on view in The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire both captivate and frighten, with sun gods bristling with claws and fangs, and undulating rattlesnakes bursting forth from the neck of a decapitated earth goddess. Soon after being discovered, they were reburied as creations of the devil, and only later resurrected as masterpieces comparable to the greatest sculptural traditions. These remarkable artworks never fail to enthrall those who see them. After five centuries they continue to be invoked as political symbols, eternal emblems of Mexican national heritage. But what did these monoliths mean as part of the sacred architecture and cults of the gods celebrated in Mexico’s ancient capital of Tenochtitlan? More answers are emerging after a century of archaeological research, together with the recognition that the fearsome power of an empire, embodied in the Aztec gods, was not so very different from that of other ancient civilizations of the Old World. Drawing primarily on the collections of the Museo Nacional de Antropología and the Museo del Templo Mayor in Mexico City, the exhibition will also feature the Sahagún’s Florentine Codex from the Biblioteca Medicea Laurenziana in Florence, and 16th to 18th-century works relating to Mexico from the Getty Research Institute’s Special Collections. “European response to pre-Columbian and colonial-era Latin America has long been a focus of collecting for the Getty Research Institute,” says Lyons. “Its rich holdings on Mexico show how remarkable Aztec objects were 'translated' by Europeans.” Adds J. Paul Getty Museum director Michael Brand: “I have been keen to broaden the perspective of the Getty Villa. Bringing some of Mexico's greatest works of Aztec art to the Villa for the first time will enable visitors and scholars alike to reflect on both cultures in a richer way. We are very grateful to our Mexican and Italian colleagues for their generous loans that make this unique exhibition possible.” The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire is curated by Claire L. Lyons, curator of antiquities, J. Paul Getty Museum, and John M. D. Pohl, research associate, Cotsen Institute of Archaeology, UCLA. Accompanying the installation is an illustrated companion volume, The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire, authored by John Pohl, which describes Aztec culture and cosmology, and the reciprocal consequences of European contact with New Spain. In conjunction with the exhibition, a two-day conference will be convened at the Getty Villa from April 29-May 1, 2010. International scholars will address historical analogies drawn between the Aztecs and ancient Rome, the production of Sahagún's Florentine Codex, and the implications of comparative approaches to the archaeology of empires. In addition to the conference, a full schedule of public programs will be developed, including gallery tours, family programs, adult education courses, point-of-view talks, and curatorial lectures. A brochure and audio guide will be available to visitors, and a permanent exhibition website will extend access to international audiences. In collaboration with the California Institute of the Arts, a theatrical performance based on Aztec texts in Nahuatl, the poem "Sun Stone" (1957) by Octavio Paz, and Antonin Artaud's 1938 "The Theater of Cruelty (Second Manifesto)" is currently in development. The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire is part of Los Angeles’ celebration of the bicentennial of Mexico’s independence and the centennial of the Mexican revolution. Several other cultural institutions will also be developing exhibitions and programming as part of a city-wide effort. Art Daily URL; http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new2251 Getty Museum URL; http://www.getty.edu/visit/exhibitions/future.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://tinyurl.com/c9mlao _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Jul 24 22:01:19 2009 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:01:19 -0400 Subject: teotihuacan etymology Message-ID: Dear Magnus, I thought you scored some well reasoned points! While I don't disagree with anything you said, you reminded me of an academic scene that is probably re-played from time to time. You said that no grammarian has made this analysis before and it reminded me of a situation that occurred when I was in my third year of graduate school. My phonology professor was explaining the phonetic facts about the Portuguese vowel system and then finished up by saying what the phonological inferences were. Since my head was buzzing with generative ideas, I volunteered that there was another way to look at it. He looked over his glasses and said, "What might that be?" When I had said my piece, he said, "Joe, that's very imaginative, but I don't think you will find any (I think he included the word "self-respecting") linguist that will say that. Quite by accident, two days later I read an article by Kenneth Pike (highly respected by most linguists) in which he described the Portuguese vowel system and its processes in a way that suggested that he had overheard my classroom suggestion. Which brings me to back to the fact that while I agree with you that -ca:n and -ya:n are the preferable analysis for Nahuatl, Richard Andrews actually has proposed the other solution. In Lesson 46 of his Revised Edition, he says that the "ca:" and "ya" are elements which appear elsewhere in the verb system and that the locative morpheme is "n". I would suggest that while this may possibly (some people would say "probably") true historically, when we do our morphological analysis judgments, we do include historical development in the court record. It would be interesting to see if someone could make a reasoned case for Andrews' point of view. Actually, I can guess what a few of their points might be. A minor fussy point that I would bring up: while you make it clear that "-ti" results in the formation of a denominal verb, I wouldn't call it a "causative suffix". There is a set of suffixes that are added to verbs that increase their transitivity by "1" and there is another suffixes that are added to nouns that result in verbs. I think that it would be better to have separate grammatical labels for those suffixes. Tottazqueh, Joe Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > Dear. Dr. Sullivan > > The proposed analysis of Teotihuacan seems pretty far stretched. Firstly why > assume that it is from a t dialect - teotihuacan is well within the central > dialect area where tl would be expected, (although of course it might not > always have been) - and use of the name itself is attested only in a -tl > dialect, classical Nahuatl. Secondly the etymology requires i not just a > t-dialect but also an i-dialect since central dialects tend to have /tle/ as > the root for fire. Thirdly splitting up the locative suffix /ka:n/ into an > agentive and a -n locative suffix seems completely unwarranted - to my > knowledge no grammarian has made this analysis before, all seeing -/ka:n/ > and /ya:n/ as single morphemes. I would propose that a much better analysis > would be: > > teo - divine, god, holy, mystic > ti - causative suffix (the one used on nouns to form a denominal verb > meaning to become as in /tla:kati/ "be born") > hua- passive/non-specific agent suffix > can - locative suffix > > "place where someone becomes (a) god" > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Jul 24 22:05:00 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 00:05:00 +0200 Subject: Me:xi'co : alternative etymologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, I was wondering how long it would take for this topic to surface! Here are some observations, for what they're worth: First, the etymology that derives Me:xi'co from 'moon' and 'navel' is worth consideration despite the apparent rough fit. It is true that 'At the Navel of the Moon' should be Me:tz-xic-co, which is more complex than the attested name. However, we should keep in mind that place names, like names in general (incl. attested Nahuatl names), are subject to simplification, reanalysis and corruption, and change at different rates from simple words. Furthermore, a form *Me:x-xic-co may indeed underlie Me:xi'co. On the one hand, we have enough parallels in Nahuatl for assimilation and for underrepresentation of the resulting geminate consonant: Cf. the name Te:cuichpotzin (lit. 'the lord's girl' for the daughter of Motecuhzoma II), which represents te:cuh- 'lord' + ichpo:ch- 'maiden' + -tzin (rev.), where stands for from - This led to the extrapolated form Tecuichpo on the assumption that the following in the reverential form represents a single affricate. On the other hand, a dissimilation of the stop cluster to <'c> would account for the short vowel in the second syllable of the capital's name. There is clear evidence for an indigenous analysis of Me:xi'co as 'At the Navel (and thus also: 'In the Middle) of the Moon'. First, the city lies within Lake Metztliapan ('On the Waters of the Moon'). Secondly, as Soustelle mentions (by the way, before Gutierre Tibon) in his famous study of Aztec civilization, the Otomi name for the Aztec capital is Anbondo Amadetzânâ, where bondo refers to the opuntia cactus of Tenochtitlan fame but, more interestingly, amadetzânâ is rendered 'in the middle of the moon'. And now for something completely different -- a place name derived from a personal name. Not much work has been done on this category of place names in Nahuatl. In fact, I am not aware of a single study. But there are a number of toponyms derived from the names of gods and eponymous ancestors, and even of other prominent figures, legendary and historical. Huitzilopochco (of Churubusco fame) is one such example, even if one could take it as an elliptical form for 'At (the Temple of) Huitzilopochtli'. We also have Copilco, named after an Aztec leader from the time of the foundation of Tenochtitlan (apparently not the same Copil that gave the Aztecs hell on their way there). Given such examples, it is neither impossible nor even unlikely that Me:xi'co represents Me:xi' (if the name rendered for the ancestral leader linked to Huitzilopochtli is the same) + the locative suffix -co. Thus, the place name might mean 'At (the Place of) Mexi'. Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Jul 24 23:23:27 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:23:27 -0500 Subject: teotihuacan etymology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, The reason why the -ca- of -can is split off is that with few exceptions (caxcan, for example), , -can is only sufixed to agentive nouns in the formation of place names. You propose that the root of teotihuacan is -teotihua- and that the -hua- is a passive/impersonal suffix (in this case, impersonal, because teoti is intransitive). Can you give any other examples of place names formed on impersonal verbs? John On Jul 24, 2009, at 8:44 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Dear. Dr. Sullivan > > The proposed analysis of Teotihuacan seems pretty far stretched. > Firstly why assume that it is from a t dialect - teotihuacan is well > within the central dialect area where tl would be expected, > (although of course it might not always have been) - and use of the > name itself is attested only in a -tl dialect, classical Nahuatl. > Secondly the etymology requires i not just a t-dialect but also an i- > dialect since central dialects tend to have /tle/ as the root for > fire. Thirdly splitting up the locative suffix /ka:n/ into an > agentive and a -n locative suffix seems completely unwarranted - to > my knowledge no grammarian has made this analysis before, all seeing > -/ka:n/ and /ya:n/ as single morphemes. I would propose that a much > better analysis would be: > > teo - divine, god, holy, mystic > ti - causative suffix (the one used on nouns to form a denominal > verb meaning to become as in /tla:kati/ "be born") > hua- passive/non-specific agent suffix > can - locative suffix > > "place where someone becomes (a) god" > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sat Jul 25 04:18:56 2009 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 04:18:56 +0000 Subject: Me:xi'co = moon navel, maguey navel, E.T.'s navel....?? Message-ID: An etymology that I have seen is "'in the middle of the moon', which was short for 'in the middle of the Lake of the Moon'". Citlalyani --- On Fri, 24/7/09, micc2 wrote: > From: micc2 > The name Mexico has been interpreted by new Age types as "the place of the navel of > the moon,"  "the place of the navel of the maguey" ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Jul 25 14:59:30 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:59:30 -0500 Subject: morphology and sacred landscape Message-ID: Listeros, I would like to explain how I think Nahua place names work. There have been many poorly written compilations of Nahua place names. Poor, for two reasons. First, because their authors generally do not have a good understanding of Nahua morphology. And second, because while they provide translations of the noun (simple or agentive) or verb (Magnus, you are absolutely right. What I meant to say is that passive/ impersonal verbs are not linked to -can) to which the relational ending is suffixed, they do not explain WHY these nouns and verbs were chosen in the first place. I believe that Nahua place names allude directly to some aspect of Mesoamerican sacred landscape, in other words, to some aspect of the migration process from Aztlan to Chicomoztoc to Colhuahcan. This may include physical aspects of the landscape, animals, plants, actions and deities. A well written work on Nahua place names will explain the morphology of each name, as well as how it ties into the universe of sacred landscape. This is something I plan to do in the future with María Elena Bernal García and Angel García Zambrano from the Universidad Autónoma del Estado de Morelos. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sat Jul 25 16:48:34 2009 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:48:34 +0000 Subject: morphology and sacred landscape Message-ID: Could some merely refer to ordinary non-religious landscape features? For example, Chapultepec (= Chapoltepe_c) = "at the grasshopper hill" maybe merely when the first Aztec-speakers came there there were many noisy grasshoppers there, or their first crops there were much damaged by grasshoppers. Citlalyani --- On Sat, 25/7/09, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: ... I believe that Nahua place names allude directly to some aspect of Mesoamerican sacred landscape, in other words, to some aspect of the migration process from Aztlan to Chicomoztoc to Colhuahcan. This may include physical aspects of the landscape, animals, plants, actions and deities. ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Jul 25 17:48:57 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:48:57 -0500 Subject: Morphology and sacred landscapes Message-ID: It's great to get back from the ICA in Mexico City (where I had the pleasure to meet some Nahuat-l pen pals face to face for the first time) and find the list buzzing with very interesting messages. John: I agree with much of what you say in the message reproduced below. I would just caution you to not get too attached to the hypothesis that you imply will guide your study of toponyms in Morelos, namely your belief "that Nahua place names allude directly to some aspect of Mesoamerican sacred landscape, in other words, to some aspect of the migration process from Aztlan to Chicomoztoc to Colhuahcan." It's usually best to have a few alternative hypotheses on the table and to look for the weaknesses, more that the strengths, of each hypothesis. The Aztec migration story is just one native historical tradition (actually a set of overlapping historical traditions), although it's one of the better documented stories. The Nahua of central Mexico, whose language clearly originated in western Mexico, inserted themselves in rather late (i.e. post-Teotihuacan) times into a sacred landscape that developed over several millenia among the original Otomanguean-speakers (including the Otopamean family), whose roots in this region go back to the earliest agricultural villages of the Protoneolithic period (ca. 5000-2500 d.C.). Central Mexican toponyms, as I pointed out in my last post, are usually calques, or semantic loans in which meaning is loaned without the sounds associated with that meaning in the source language. This is why many (although certainly not all) toponymical signs in the central Mexican system of pictorial writing can be read in different languages; they are semasiograms, communicating meaning without necessarily being associated with the morphemes of a given language. Of course this system also permits glottographic writing (both logographic and phonographic) in any of the participating tongues, where homophonic or cuasi-homophonic plays on words or morphemes are exploited, as in rebus writing. The percentage of glottograms in any given text varies through time and space, from practically nothing (e.g. the five codices of the Borgia group) to very abundant (e.g. post-Conquest codices from the Texcoco region). It's hard to reconstruct the pre-Nahua linguistic landscape of the Valley of Morelos, since the Nahuas in this region form part of a linguistic band that slices the Otomanguean territory in two, with the Otopameans to the north (specifically the Otomi, Mazahua, Matlatzinca, and Ocuiltec) and the Mixtecans and Popolocans to the south. Thus a network of interrelated languages derived from a common, ancestral tongue spoken thousands of years earlier (Proto-Otomanguean) was severed, at least in a spatial sense, when the Nahuas appeared on the scene. Given this situation, it would probably be useful to search these neighboring languages for toponyms refering to places in Morelos. You're quite right about the importance of going beyond purely linguistic analyses of toponyms if we want to arrive at a deeper understanding of their significance. Saludos, David ******************************** Listeros, I would like to explain how I think Nahua place names work. There have been many poorly written compilations of Nahua place names. Poor, for two reasons. First, because their authors generally do not have a good understanding of Nahua morphology. And second, because while they provide translations of the noun (simple or agentive) or verb (Magnus, you are absolutely right. What I meant to say is that passive/impersonal verbs are not linked to -can) to which the relational ending is suffixed, they do not explain WHY these nouns and verbs were chosen in the first place. I believe that Nahua place names allude directly to some aspect of Mesoamerican sacred landscape, in other words, to some aspect of the migration process from Aztlan to Chicomoztoc to Colhuahcan. This may include physical aspects of the landscape, animals, plants, actions and deities. A well written work on Nahua place names will explain the morphology of each name, as well as how it ties into the universe of sacred landscape. This is something I plan to do in the future with María Elena Bernal García and Angel García Zambrano from the Universidad Autónoma del Estado de Morelos. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Jul 25 18:00:09 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:00:09 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" Message-ID: [My message came back to me with very alien looking characters, for some reason. Here it goes again; I hope it comes through this time.] Mariotzin: Regarding the etymology of Mexico, I threw in my two cents worth a couple of years ago. I used this toponym as an example in the chapter on phonology in a text written to teach Nahuatl to Spanish translation to history students. I don't mean to disqualify other attempts to understand the etymology of this word, but it's the best I've been able to come up with so far. I'll just copy and paste it here, simplifying the spelling conventions (using the Andrews/Karttunen system, with colons instead of macrons to mark the long vowels; saltillos are represented with the letter 'h'). When I write 'c-qu', of course I'm just referring to the phoneme /k/, which can be written 'c' or 'qu' in this system; 'qu' is used when the vowel that follows is either 'e' or 'i', following Spanish orthographic conventions. At the end are the references. The similarity of meaning in the Otomi toponym (noticed long ago by Jacques Soustelle) is significant. Most toponyms in central Mexico are calques: meanings were translated from one language to another, regardless of phonological form. Thus the study of toponyms from a plurilinguistic perspective sheds much badly needed light on the meanings behind the place names, and can tips the scales in favor of one interpretation or another. Of course, we'll never really know. Even if a 16th century native speaker explains a toponym's meaning to us in a text, there's always the possibility that his interpretation is just a folk etymology. *************************************** 3.7.3. Disimilación En adición al fenómeno de la asimilación regresiva, puede haber disimilación regresiva. En estos casos dos consonantes idénticas entran en contacto, y la primera cambia para distinguirse de la segunda: • |c-qu| + |c-qu| > |hc-hqu|.258 Un buen ejemplo de este proceso es el nombre de la ciudad que dominaba el escenario político del centro de México durante el último siglo de la época Prehispánica: • Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)).259 La disimilación regresiva es opcional en náhuatl; ya hemos visto que en algunos casos las consonantes dobles simplemente se alargan, por lo que el topónimo anterior podría expresarse también como Me:xxi:cco. En la época Novohispana normalmente no se representaban los saltillos ni las consonantes largas, escribiendo simplemente Mexico. ------------------------------------------------------------- 258 Andrews, 2003a: 35. 259 El topónimo Me:xxihco (o Me:xxicco, sin la asimilación opcional cc > hc) significa “en (-co) el ombligo (xi:ctli) de la Luna (me:tztli)”. Esta derivación, si bien es polémica, se apoya en la gramática del náhuatl de Rincón (1998: 50r y sin p. [libro 4, capítulo 1; Vocabulario breve: “Mexicco”]), y en el hecho de que el topónimo otomí equivalente, en el Códice de Huichapan, expresa un significado similar: Amadetsänä, “en medio de la Luna” (Wright, 2005a: II, 338 [apéndice VIII, inciso B, no. 17]). *************************************** Source of this modified quote: Wright Carr, David Charles, Lectura del náhuatl, fundamentos para la traducción de los textos en náhuatl del periodo Novohispano Temprano, México, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 2007, p. 71. Sources cites in the footnotes: Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003. Rincón, Antonio del, “Arte mexicana”, facsímil de la ed. de 1595, en Obras clásicas sobre la lengua náhuatl, ed. digital, Ascensión Hernández de León-Portilla, compiladora, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Wright Carr, David Charles, Los otomíes: cultura, lengua y escritura, tesis, 2 vols., Zamora, Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales, El Colegio de Michoacán, 2005. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 26 00:00:05 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:00:05 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <001601ca0d51$c03f33c0$40bd9b40$@net.mx> Message-ID: The assimilation of the affricate written /tz/ to the fricative written /x/ in the presumed etymology of /me:xihko/ as /me:tzli/ + /xi:ctli/ is a given. That's just nuts-and-bolts Nahuatl phonetics. However, one cannot simply say that the long /i:/ of /xi:ctli/ goes to short /i/ in /me:xihco/. That's a leap to the Moon itself. What is the basis for this vowel shortening? This is not expected. Moreover, /xi:ctli/ doesn't have a glottal stop, written /h/, as we see in /me:xihco/. Where did the glottal stop come from? The "Moon's Navel Place" is an enticing etymology, but more insights are needed to explain the messy phonology. Michael Quoting David Wright : > [My message came back to me with very alien looking characters, for some > reason. Here it goes again; I hope it comes through this time.] > > Mariotzin: > > Regarding the etymology of Mexico, I threw in my two cents worth a couple of > years ago. I used this toponym as an example in the chapter on phonology in > a text written to teach Nahuatl to Spanish translation to history students. > I don't mean to disqualify other attempts to understand the etymology of > this word, but it's the best I've been able to come up with so far. I'll > just copy and paste it here, simplifying the spelling conventions (using the > Andrews/Karttunen system, with colons instead of macrons to mark the long > vowels; saltillos are represented with the letter 'h'). When I write 'c-qu', > of course I'm just referring to the phoneme /k/, which can be written 'c' or > 'qu' in this system; 'qu' is used when the vowel that follows is either 'e' > or 'i', following Spanish orthographic conventions. At the end are the > references. > > The similarity of meaning in the Otomi toponym (noticed long ago by Jacques > Soustelle) is significant. Most toponyms in central Mexico are calques: > meanings were translated from one language to another, regardless of > phonological form. Thus the study of toponyms from a plurilinguistic > perspective sheds much badly needed light on the meanings behind the place > names, and can tips the scales in favor of one interpretation or another. Of > course, we'll never really know. Even if a 16th century native speaker > explains a toponym's meaning to us in a text, there's always the possibility > that his interpretation is just a folk etymology. > > *************************************** > 3.7.3. Disimilación > > En adición al fenómeno de la asimilación regresiva, puede haber disimilación > regresiva. En estos casos dos consonantes idénticas entran en contacto, y la > primera cambia para distinguirse de la segunda: > > • |c-qu| + |c-qu| > |hc-hqu|.258 > > Un buen ejemplo de este proceso es el nombre de la ciudad que > dominaba el escenario político del centro de México durante el último siglo > de la época Prehispánica: > > • Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) > + co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)).259 > > La disimilación regresiva es opcional en náhuatl; ya hemos visto que > en algunos casos las consonantes dobles simplemente se alargan, por lo que > el topónimo anterior podría expresarse también como Me:xxi:cco. En la época > Novohispana normalmente no se representaban los saltillos ni las consonantes > largas, escribiendo simplemente Mexico. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > 258 Andrews, 2003a: 35. > 259 El topónimo Me:xxihco (o Me:xxicco, sin la asimilación opcional cc > hc) > significa “en (-co) el ombligo (xi:ctli) de la Luna (me:tztli)”. Esta > derivación, si bien es polémica, se apoya en la gramática del náhuatl de > Rincón (1998: 50r y sin p. [libro 4, capítulo 1; Vocabulario breve: > “Mexicco”]), y en el hecho de que el topónimo otomí equivalente, en el > Códice de Huichapan, expresa un significado similar: Amadetsänä, “en medio > de la Luna” (Wright, 2005a: II, 338 [apéndice VIII, inciso B, no. 17]). > > *************************************** > Source of this modified quote: > > Wright Carr, David Charles, Lectura del náhuatl, fundamentos para la > traducción de los textos en náhuatl del periodo Novohispano Temprano, > México, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 2007, p. 71. > > Sources cites in the footnotes: > > Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition, > Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003. > > Rincón, Antonio del, “Arte mexicana”, facsímil de la ed. de 1595, en Obras > clásicas sobre la lengua náhuatl, ed. digital, Ascensión Hernández de > León-Portilla, compiladora, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre > Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. > > Wright Carr, David Charles, Los otomíes: cultura, lengua y escritura, tesis, > 2 vols., Zamora, Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales, El Colegio de Michoacán, > 2005. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jul 26 01:13:24 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:13:24 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <20090725200005.5i8pf6mwgs08w048@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Well, Michael, all we have to do is get all our morphophonological nuts and bolts together, put them out in the moonlight, and the phonology doesn't look so messy. The glottal stop comes from the regressive dissimilation that is described in my post: two /k/ segments come together and the first one becomes /?/ (that's a glottal stop, not a question mark). That's what I meant by "(c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)." It looks cleaner in IPA: (/k/ + /k/ > /?k/). The first /k/ is the last segment of the root morpheme of the noun xi:c(tli), and the second /k/ is the first segment of the locative suffix -co. So far so good? The next step is to shorten the /i:/, since a long vowel before a glottal stop in Nahuatl shortens. That's what I meant by "(i: > i)". The latter reduction in vowel length is not only expected but required. (On both regressive dissimilation and vowel-length reduction before a glottal stop, see Andrews, 2003: 25, 29, 35.) Thus, Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)). This may look messy, but it's really not, it's just a bit complicated, due to the chain reaction of (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu) making (i: > i) necessary. Can you see it now? I'm using a shorthand loosely based on algebraic signs, hoping they'll be comprehensible to most readers. The sign > is like a little arrow, indicating the result of the morphophonemic processes that distort the boundaries of the morphemes (it doesn't mean "greater than" here). Since the regressive assimilation is optional, the following alternative is also possible (as I pointed out in one of the footnotes in my post, although I see now I forgot to mark the vowel length in the /i:/ segment): Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). This form looks a lot cleaner, since there is only one segment change (tz + x > xx) instead of three. Thanks for making me look hard at this, Mike. You helped me catch the error in vowel length in the latter example. I've made the correction in the manuscript for the forthcoming (someday, I hope) second edition of my book. By the way, if anybody out there has a copy of the first edition without the "Fe de erratas," please write to me and I'll send it to you by e-mail. Between the author, the editor and the designer we managed to let a lot of little bugs slip through the filters. Peace, David -----Mesaje original----- De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] Enviado el: sábado, 25 de julio de 2009 07:00 p.m. Para: David Wright CC: Nahuat-l (messages) Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" The assimilation of the affricate written /tz/ to the fricative written /x/ in the presumed etymology of /me:xihko/ as /me:tzli/ + /xi:ctli/ is a given. That's just nuts-and-bolts Nahuatl phonetics. However, one cannot simply say that the long /i:/ of /xi:ctli/ goes to short /i/ in /me:xihco/. That's a leap to the Moon itself. What is the basis for this vowel shortening? This is not expected. Moreover, /xi:ctli/ doesn't have a glottal stop, written /h/, as we see in /me:xihco/. Where did the glottal stop come from? The "Moon's Navel Place" is an enticing etymology, but more insights are needed to explain the messy phonology. Michael Quoting David Wright : > [My message came back to me with very alien looking characters, for some > reason. Here it goes again; I hope it comes through this time.] > > Mariotzin: > > Regarding the etymology of Mexico, I threw in my two cents worth a couple of > years ago. I used this toponym as an example in the chapter on phonology in > a text written to teach Nahuatl to Spanish translation to history students. > I don't mean to disqualify other attempts to understand the etymology of > this word, but it's the best I've been able to come up with so far. I'll > just copy and paste it here, simplifying the spelling conventions (using the > Andrews/Karttunen system, with colons instead of macrons to mark the long > vowels; saltillos are represented with the letter 'h'). When I write 'c-qu', > of course I'm just referring to the phoneme /k/, which can be written 'c' or > 'qu' in this system; 'qu' is used when the vowel that follows is either 'e' > or 'i', following Spanish orthographic conventions. At the end are the > references. > > The similarity of meaning in the Otomi toponym (noticed long ago by Jacques > Soustelle) is significant. Most toponyms in central Mexico are calques: > meanings were translated from one language to another, regardless of > phonological form. Thus the study of toponyms from a plurilinguistic > perspective sheds much badly needed light on the meanings behind the place > names, and can tips the scales in favor of one interpretation or another. Of > course, we'll never really know. Even if a 16th century native speaker > explains a toponym's meaning to us in a text, there's always the possibility > that his interpretation is just a folk etymology. > > *************************************** > 3.7.3. Disimilación > > En adición al fenómeno de la asimilación regresiva, puede haber disimilación > regresiva. En estos casos dos consonantes idénticas entran en contacto, y la > primera cambia para distinguirse de la segunda: > > • |c-qu| + |c-qu| > |hc-hqu|.258 > > Un buen ejemplo de este proceso es el nombre de la ciudad que > dominaba el escenario político del centro de México durante el último siglo > de la época Prehispánica: > > • Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) > + co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)).259 > > La disimilación regresiva es opcional en náhuatl; ya hemos visto que > en algunos casos las consonantes dobles simplemente se alargan, por lo que > el topónimo anterior podría expresarse también como Me:xxi:cco. En la época > Novohispana normalmente no se representaban los saltillos ni las consonantes > largas, escribiendo simplemente Mexico. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > 258 Andrews, 2003a: 35. > 259 El topónimo Me:xxihco (o Me:xxicco, sin la asimilación opcional cc > hc) > significa “en (-co) el ombligo (xi:ctli) de la Luna (me:tztli)”. Esta > derivación, si bien es polémica, se apoya en la gramática del náhuatl de > Rincón (1998: 50r y sin p. [libro 4, capítulo 1; Vocabulario breve: > “Mexicco”]), y en el hecho de que el topónimo otomí equivalente, en el > Códice de Huichapan, expresa un significado similar: Amadetsänä, “en medio > de la Luna” (Wright, 2005a: II, 338 [apéndice VIII, inciso B, no. 17]). > > *************************************** > Source of this modified quote: > > Wright Carr, David Charles, Lectura del náhuatl, fundamentos para la > traducción de los textos en náhuatl del periodo Novohispano Temprano, > México, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 2007, p. 71. > > Sources cites in the footnotes: > > Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition, > Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003. > > Rincón, Antonio del, “Arte mexicana”, facsímil de la ed. de 1595, en Obras > clásicas sobre la lengua náhuatl, ed. digital, Ascensión Hernández de > León-Portilla, compiladora, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre > Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. > > Wright Carr, David Charles, Los otomíes: cultura, lengua y escritura, tesis, > 2 vols., Zamora, Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales, El Colegio de Michoacán, > 2005. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Jul 25 17:53:24 2009 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:53:24 -0500 Subject: morphology and sacred landscape In-Reply-To: <364773.35234.qm@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anthony, Its possible that the mexica just happened to see an eagle perched on a cactus, but since nahua spirituality is blatantly tied to nature, I would like to see if grasshopper hill refers to more than just the sum of it's components. John Sent from my iPhone On 25/07/2009, at 11:48, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > Could some merely refer to ordinary non-religious landscape > features? For example, Chapultepec (= Chapoltepe_c) = "at the > grasshopper hill" maybe merely when the first Aztec-speakers came > there there were many noisy grasshoppers there, or their first crops > there were much damaged by grasshoppers. > > Citlalyani > > --- On Sat, 25/7/09, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > ... I believe that Nahua place names allude directly to some aspect > of Mesoamerican sacred landscape, in other words, to some aspect of > the migration process from Aztlan to Chicomoztoc to Colhuahcan. This > may include physical aspects of the landscape, animals, plants, > actions and deities. ... > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 02:01:32 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 21:01:32 -0500 Subject: Nahua toponyms Message-ID: Dr. Sullivan: before reading your response I realized the weakness of my proposed translation of teotihuacan: you are right /ka:n/ is used for placenames derived form nominals! It should be teotihuaya:n for my etymology to work. However holyfireowneragentplace still doesn't convince me either. About placenames and sacred landscapes, I think it would be a mistake to believe that because some placenames are obviously tied to the mexica myth of origin that others necessarily are as well. As Dr. Wright is correct that the mexica were late arrivals in Mesoamerica and many places presumably had names before their arrival. These placenames could well be named according to other mythical frameworks than exactly the aztlan-chicomoztoc myth. And we have no way of knowing which placenames have pre-mexica roots and which haven't. I think for example that Dr. Wright argues very convincingly that Mexico is a Nahua calque of an earlier oto-pamean placename. The moon was a much more central deity to the oto-pame peoples than to the Nahuas. I agree that placenames are tied to cosmovision - but I think it is erroneous to assume that this must necessarily be in the sense of myths of origin. I think that most probably a lot of placenames are connected to cosmovision by linking humans to their environment through their common history. Much in the same way that Keith Basso has described for the Cibecue Apache in "Wisdom sits in places". For example In the area where I have done most of my research - north eastern Morelos - I have observed placenames that are quite newly coined. The northern part of the town of Hueyapan is so newly settled that many placenames are coined with in living memory of some inhabitants. The Northern part of the barrio San Andrés for example was settled in the 1930'es by people moving out from the center which had become saturated and the forest was cleared to make room for new solares. Talking to some of the original settlers I asked why the northern part of San Andrés was called /xonakayohka:n/ and i was told that this was because when they arrived the ground there was full of special kind of poisonous onions that caused the livestock to die. The settlers had to dig up all the onions in order to be able to use the land - and the poisonous onions are now gone. Another example is in the barrio of San Felipe where there is a place called /poxahko/. I could not get anyone to explain the translation to me - most people suggested it had to do with owls /poxakwa/ but I couldn't get that to fit. Later i found that there was another place also called poxahko and I realised that both were located on paths that ended blind - I surmised that there had at one time been a word /poxahtle/, meaning cul-de-sac. I asked and elderly Hueyapeño for such as word and I was told it meant a sleeping bag for babies - which is much like a sack. Nobody had seen any connection between that word and the places called poxahko (obviously because the -ko locative suffix is not productive in Hueyapan) Obviously such a placename hasn't got any relation to mythic events but simply describes a feature of the (man made) landscape. Other placenames in Hueyapan of recent coinage are /tetlalkwililpan/ which is the place of the first spanish rancho within Hueyapan territory (founded after 1700) - the placename means "on the lands taken from someone". Another is /amillan/ "water-maize-fields" which is the name of the first place in Hueyapan to have irrigated milpas - irrigation systems was first introduced to Hueyapan in the late 19th century by a priest who needed zacate for his livestock. In another village Tohtlan I encountered the placenames tlantzitzikame and orrnotitlan, the first obviously comes form i-tlan tzitzikame "by the ants" and the other stems from a couple of large breadbaking ovens that were installed there not that long ago. I don't see why placenaming customs in precolombian times would have been considerably different or more "mythical" than the ones of the colonial and modern Nahua. Magnus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 26 15:56:31 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:56:31 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <001f01ca0d8e$466769e0$d3363da0$@net.mx> Message-ID: Quoting David Wright : > Well, Michael, all we have to do is get all our morphophonological nuts and > bolts together, put them out in the moonlight, and the phonology doesn't > look so messy. The glottal stop comes from the regressive dissimilation that > is described in my post: two /k/ segments come together and the first one > becomes /?/ (that's a glottal stop, not a question mark). That's what I > meant by "(c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)." It looks cleaner in IPA: (/k/ + /k/ > > /?k/). The first /k/ is the last segment of the root morpheme of the noun > xi:c(tli), and the second /k/ is the first segment of the locative suffix > -co. So far so good? The next step is to shorten the /i:/, since a long > vowel before a glottal stop in Nahuatl shortens. That's what I meant by "(i: >> i)". The latter reduction in vowel length is not only expected but > required. (On both regressive dissimilation and vowel-length reduction > before a glottal stop, see Andrews, 2003: 25, 29, 35. The problem with Andrews' explanation, David, is that it's a fallacy based on circular logic, with no supporting evidence. He explains the etymology of "Mexico," on page 500, on the basis of this putative /kk/ > /?k/ shift, basing this pronouncement on an earlier note in the explanation of Nahuatl phonology. The reader then goes to that note, on page 35, only to find that he says, well, /kk/ > /?k/...and we see this in the term... Mexihco. (!) Bad reasoning. We need real evidence, many more examples. Andrews doesn't have any. :-) Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply states that the vowel before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh... None of the above serves to explain the etymology of /me:xihco/, as far as I can see. Saludos y buenos tardes, Michael > > Thus, Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + > co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)). This may look messy, but it's really not, it's > just a bit complicated, due to the chain reaction of (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu) > making (i: > i) necessary. > > Can you see it now? I'm using a shorthand loosely based on algebraic signs, > hoping they'll be comprehensible to most readers. The sign > is like a > little arrow, indicating the result of the morphophonemic processes that > distort the boundaries of the morphemes (it doesn't mean "greater than" > here). > > Since the regressive assimilation is optional, the following alternative is > also possible (as I pointed out in one of the footnotes in my post, although > I see now I forgot to mark the vowel length in the /i:/ segment): > > Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). This > form looks a lot cleaner, since there is only one segment change (tz + x > > xx) instead of three. > > Thanks for making me look hard at this, Mike. You helped me catch the error > in vowel length in the latter example. I've made the correction in the > manuscript for the forthcoming (someday, I hope) second edition of my book. > By the way, if anybody out there has a copy of the first edition without the > "Fe de erratas," please write to me and I'll send it to you by e-mail. > Between the author, the editor and the designer we managed to let a lot of > little bugs slip through the filters. > > Peace, > > David > > -----Mesaje original----- > De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] > Enviado el: sábado, 25 de julio de 2009 07:00 p.m. > Para: David Wright > CC: Nahuat-l (messages) > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" > > The assimilation of the affricate written /tz/ to the fricative written > /x/ in the presumed etymology of /me:xihko/ as /me:tzli/ + /xi:ctli/ is > a given. That's just nuts-and-bolts Nahuatl phonetics. > > However, one cannot simply say that the long /i:/ of /xi:ctli/ goes to > short /i/ in /me:xihco/. That's a leap to the Moon itself. What is the > basis for this vowel shortening? This is not expected. > > Moreover, /xi:ctli/ doesn't have a glottal stop, written /h/, as we see > in /me:xihco/. Where did the glottal stop come from? > > The "Moon's Navel Place" is an enticing etymology, but more insights > are needed to explain the messy phonology. > > Michael > > Quoting David Wright : > >> [My message came back to me with very alien looking characters, for some >> reason. Here it goes again; I hope it comes through this time.] >> >> Mariotzin: >> >> Regarding the etymology of Mexico, I threw in my two cents worth a couple > of >> years ago. I used this toponym as an example in the chapter on phonology > in >> a text written to teach Nahuatl to Spanish translation to history > students. >> I don't mean to disqualify other attempts to understand the etymology of >> this word, but it's the best I've been able to come up with so far. I'll >> just copy and paste it here, simplifying the spelling conventions (using > the >> Andrews/Karttunen system, with colons instead of macrons to mark the long >> vowels; saltillos are represented with the letter 'h'). When I write > 'c-qu', >> of course I'm just referring to the phoneme /k/, which can be written 'c' > or >> 'qu' in this system; 'qu' is used when the vowel that follows is either > 'e' >> or 'i', following Spanish orthographic conventions. At the end are the >> references. >> >> The similarity of meaning in the Otomi toponym (noticed long ago by > Jacques >> Soustelle) is significant. Most toponyms in central Mexico are calques: >> meanings were translated from one language to another, regardless of >> phonological form. Thus the study of toponyms from a plurilinguistic >> perspective sheds much badly needed light on the meanings behind the place >> names, and can tips the scales in favor of one interpretation or another. > Of >> course, we'll never really know. Even if a 16th century native speaker >> explains a toponym's meaning to us in a text, there's always the > possibility >> that his interpretation is just a folk etymology. >> >> *************************************** >> 3.7.3. Disimilación >> >> En adición al fenómeno de la asimilación regresiva, puede haber > disimilación >> regresiva. En estos casos dos consonantes idénticas entran en contacto, y > la >> primera cambia para distinguirse de la segunda: >> >> • |c-qu| + |c-qu| > |hc-hqu|.258 >> >> Un buen ejemplo de este proceso es el nombre de la ciudad que >> dominaba el escenario político del centro de México durante el último > siglo >> de la época Prehispánica: >> >> • Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) >> + co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)).259 >> >> La disimilación regresiva es opcional en náhuatl; ya hemos visto que >> en algunos casos las consonantes dobles simplemente se alargan, por lo que >> el topónimo anterior podría expresarse también como Me:xxi:cco. En la > época >> Novohispana normalmente no se representaban los saltillos ni las > consonantes >> largas, escribiendo simplemente Mexico. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> 258 Andrews, 2003a: 35. >> 259 El topónimo Me:xxihco (o Me:xxicco, sin la asimilación opcional cc > > hc) >> significa “en (-co) el ombligo (xi:ctli) de la Luna (me:tztli)”. Esta >> derivación, si bien es polémica, se apoya en la gramática del náhuatl de >> Rincón (1998: 50r y sin p. [libro 4, capítulo 1; Vocabulario breve: >> “Mexicco”]), y en el hecho de que el topónimo otomí equivalente, en el >> Códice de Huichapan, expresa un significado similar: Amadetsänä, “en medio >> de la Luna” (Wright, 2005a: II, 338 [apéndice VIII, inciso B, no. 17]). >> >> *************************************** >> Source of this modified quote: >> >> Wright Carr, David Charles, Lectura del náhuatl, fundamentos para la >> traducción de los textos en náhuatl del periodo Novohispano Temprano, >> México, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 2007, p. 71. >> >> Sources cites in the footnotes: >> >> Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition, >> Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003. >> >> Rincón, Antonio del, “Arte mexicana”, facsímil de la ed. de 1595, en Obras >> clásicas sobre la lengua náhuatl, ed. digital, Ascensión Hernández de >> León-Portilla, compiladora, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre >> Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. >> >> Wright Carr, David Charles, Los otomíes: cultura, lengua y escritura, > tesis, >> 2 vols., Zamora, Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales, El Colegio de Michoacán, >> 2005. > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 26 16:12:47 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:12:47 -0400 Subject: Nahua toponyms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > Dr. Sullivan: before reading your response I realized the weakness of my > proposed translation of teotihuacan: you are right /ka:n/ is used for > placenames derived form nominals! It should be teotihuaya:n for my > etymology to work. However holyfireowneragentplace still doesn't convince me > either. Quemetzin, Magnus. /-ya:n/ occurs after impersonal verb forms in -hua and -lo, as for example in "cochihuayan," "tlamachtiloyan," etc. So, yes, -can on the end of the indeed attested verb "teotihua" is problematic. It would interesting to scour the known corpus of Nahuat place names to see if -can is seen *anywhere* else with impersonal verbs. That might help in this discussion. teotl + tetl- + -can is also within the (far-reaching :-) realm of possibility, 'place of the divine stone'. Does anyone know where "Teotihuacan" is attested? What are the original attested spellings? Are there any variant spellings? Who got this place name? Best, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sun Jul 26 18:39:37 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:39:37 +0200 Subject: Teotihuacan vs. Teohuacan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, There is one other possibility that we should consider when pondering the etymology of Teo:tihua'ca:n. That it is a variant of the attested place name Teo:hua'ca:n, variously 'Where One Has Deities', 'Where There Are Deities', or simply 'Place of the Deities (or Gods, if one prefers)'. I realize that we have a there that seems to discount that idea, but we should keep in mind that this all-important name of the city where deities gathered to found our world age has been the subject of considerable discussion in Nahuatl society and, thus, may well have undergone folk etymology, influenced by the verb teo:tihua. I realize, of course, that my suggestion is a little unconventional. The name as attested CANNOT be analyzed, as often done, as a compound of the verb teo:tihua + -ca:n. If this had been the case, the resultant form would be *Teo:tihuaca:n -- without the glottal stop before -ca:n. There are parallels for toponyms compounded of intransitive verb + -ca:n. For example, A:pitza:huaca:n 'Where the Water is Narrow'. Incidentally, we should get away from translations of -hua'ca:n toponyms as 'Where There Are -ers', as famously in Michhua'ca:n, supposedly 'Where There Are Possessors (Owners, Masters) of Fish / Fishermen'. I think there is good reason to understand the suffix chain to mean rather 'Where There Are (Fish, etc.)', 'Where One Has (Fish, etc.)', 'Place Having (Fish, etc.)'. An inhabitant of such a place is either a (Mich-, etc.)-hua' (identical with (mich-, etc.)-hua' in the sense of 'One Who Has ...s') or a (Mich-, etc.)-hua'catl. The advantage of this analysis is that we can avoid interpretations of such place names as Coyo:hua'ca:n as 'Place of the Possessors of Coyotes' and Chapolhua'ca:n as 'Place of the Possessors of Grasshoppers'. For an excellent (in fact, by far the best) discussion of Nahuatl toponyms, see Dyckerhoff, Ursula and Hanns J. Prem, Toponyme und Ethnonyme im Klassischen Aztekischen (Berlin 1990). Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jul 26 20:15:01 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:15:01 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" Message-ID: Muy estimado Michael: I'm glad we've gotten beyond the "messy phonology" argument to something more tangible, i.e. the possibility that one of Andrew's grammatical rules (/kk/ > /?k/) may be incorrect and that he offers little supporting evidence for it (only the toponym Me:xihco). The frequent lack of evidence and of showing where the examples are from is the weakest aspect of Andrews' Introduction to Classical Nahuatl. I often turn to this book for morphophonological information, since his treatment of this area goes beyond other sources I have at hand. You are right in being suspicious of the statements he makes without displaying his evidence. Usually when one looks for supporting evidence for Andrews' claims one finds them, but there may still be problems here and there (in spite of the fact that the 2003 edition was revised during a quarter of a century of constant use, although this is no guarantee). At any rate, the problem of /kk/ > /hk/ that you bring up needs to be solved. If no further examples turn up after an exhaustive search, this rule should be crossed out from our collective list of possible morphophonological changes. It occurs to me that a good place to start would be to read through Carochi with this doubt in mind. I wish I had a searchable digital version; that would make this task much quicker. Any other sources that consistently use the glottal stop (there aren't that many) should also be searched. I checked Launey's thesis but it he seems to have spread his comments on morphophonology throughout his lengthy text, so there's no quick fix. I don't have the time to solve this problem right now. If any listeros have pertinent data, it would be helpful if they shared it. The matter is of some importance. As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page 29 of Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run through any of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal stops (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works as "in the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required is the regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as "nuts-and-bolts Nahuatl phonetics". The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk dissimilation, is essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) becoming h (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c + c > hc). Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the navel of the Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal stops were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as single. (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. "inimexxaiac" (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [máscara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, chapter 30 of the Florentine Codex.) In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; these don't alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, chapter 2, he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah (people from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark the long vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in the locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic suffix -ca plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the double x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the presence of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker Antonio del Rincón, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a Nahuatl grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on this matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the citation. (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark glottal stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they were omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original manuscript has not surfaced.) Here is what Rincón says, in the first chapter of book 4 (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde algo con la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como adjetivo v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el nombre, metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, como con los genitivos de los pronombres." In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio numbers), we find this gloss: "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tzx > xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this context. At least I don't see any viable alternatives. As John Sullivan pointed out, central Mexican toponymical etymology involves going beyond morphological analysis and searching for the meanings behind the names. I pointed out that most toponyms passed from one central Mexican language to another as calques. Here's the data on the Otomi name for Mexico Tenochtitlan that I mentioned in earlier post. It appears in the Huichapan Codex (BNAH Testimonios Pictográficos 35-60), with two words: anbondo and amadetzänä, sometimes written together, sometimes individually, much as we find Mexico and Tenochtitlan together or apart. The final 'o' in Anbondo represents a vowel midway between Spanish /o/ and /a/ and today is written by the Otomi with an underlined 'a' (except in the Mezquital, where this phoneme has shifted to /o/). So we have the singular nominal prefix an- with the word 'bonda (underlined 'a'), where ' is a glottal stop. It means "the red Opuntia fruit", the seedy fruit of the nopal cactus, of the sort that stains your mouth bright red when you eat it. (On a deeper level, this type of fruit is a metaphor for human hearts, food for the Sun, in Mexica literature and iconography, e.g. cuauhnochtli, "Opuntia fruit of the eagle", i.e. human hearts.) Anbondo is the semantic equivalent of the Nahuatl word tenochtli. The second Otomi toponym is Amadetzänä, which can be parsed as the singular nominal prefix (an - n) plus the adjective made ("middle") plus the word tsänä (today zänä in Mezquital Otomi and some other variants), "Moon". (The ä is a nasal /a/.) Thus Anbondo Amadetzänä can be translated "the red Opuntia fruit in the middle of the Moon". The close match between Rincon's translation of Mexico and the Otomi toponym Amadetsänä strongly supports the former's etymology. I guess that's all I have. I hope all this helps you to see the logic of the navel/middle of the Moon hypothesis. Thanks for motivating me to spend an interesting four hours looking at this problem and writing up the results. Hopefully someone will help us resolve the kk > hk question. Saludos respetuosos, David Wright ******************************************************************** The problem with Andrews' explanation, David, is that it's a fallacy based on circular logic, with no supporting evidence. He explains the etymology of "Mexico," on page 500, on the basis of this putative /kk/ > /?k/ shift, basing this pronouncement on an earlier note in the explanation of Nahuatl phonology. The reader then goes to that note, on page 35, only to find that he says, well, /kk/ > /?k/...and we see this in the term... Mexihco. (!) Bad reasoning. We need real evidence, many more examples. Andrews doesn't have any. :-) Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply states that the vowel before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh... None of the above serves to explain the etymology of /me:xihco/, as far as I can see. Saludos y buenos tardes, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 26 20:31:09 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:31:09 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <000601ca0e2d$c1a629d0$44f27d70$@net.mx> Message-ID: Quoting David Wright : >> > As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page 29 of > Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run through any > of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal stops > (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and > Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. David: You didn't understand my first posting. I never once questioned this fact. I have always known it to be true. It's simply that long /i:/ to short /i/ was not possible *in the context /kk/*, **which is as far as I could take the etymologizing of the "Mexicco"**. > > So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works as "in > the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation > proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: > > Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). > > In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required is the > regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as "nuts-and-bolts > Nahuatl phonetics". > > The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk dissimilation, is > essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) becoming h > (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). NOPE. Not accepted. Not proven. I would have to side with John Sullivan and says that we are dealing with something else. > > Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c > + c > hc). > > Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the navel of the > Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard > "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal stops > were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as single. > (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. "inimexxaiac" > (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [máscara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, chapter > 30 of the Florentine Codex.) > > In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing > Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his > accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; these don't > alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, chapter 2, > he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah (people > from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark the long > vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual > procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in the > locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic suffix -ca > plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the double > x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. > > So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to > reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the presence > of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. Is it just me? All I see here is more circular reasoning. > > Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker Antonio del > Rincón, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a Nahuatl > grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on this > matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the citation. > (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark glottal > stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they were > omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original manuscript > has not surfaced.) Here is what Rincón says, in the first chapter of book 4 > (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): > > "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde algo con > la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como adjetivo > v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el nombre, > metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, como > con los genitivos de los pronombres." > > In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio numbers), > we find this gloss: > > "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." > > It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tzx >> xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this context. At > least I don't see any viable alternatives. Well...sorry. I see "Moon" but I don't see "navel". All I smell is folk-etymology, and native speakers are abundantly capable of folk-etymologizing. I don't have internet at home these days, so I'll have to print this up and take it home. I'll study it and see if I can come to the same conclusions that you have. But so far, no good. But thanks for the ideas. Best, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 26 20:41:16 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:41:16 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <000601ca0e2d$c1a629d0$44f27d70$@net.mx> Message-ID: Sorry. Just a short rejoinder. Out of curiosity I just looked up this place name in Karttunen's dictionary and found that she also has trouble accepting the "navel" explanation: "The etymology of this [Me:xihco] is opaque. Because of the difference in vowel length, it cannot be derived from ME-TL 'maguey'. The sequence XIH also differs in vowel length from XI:C-TLI 'navel,' which has been proposed as a component element..." Michael Quoting David Wright : > Muy estimado Michael: > > I'm glad we've gotten beyond the "messy phonology" argument to something > more tangible, i.e. the possibility that one of Andrew's grammatical rules > (/kk/ > /?k/) may be incorrect and that he offers little supporting evidence > for it (only the toponym Me:xihco). The frequent lack of evidence and of > showing where the examples are from is the weakest aspect of Andrews' > Introduction to Classical Nahuatl. I often turn to this book for > morphophonological information, since his treatment of this area goes beyond > other sources I have at hand. You are right in being suspicious of the > statements he makes without displaying his evidence. Usually when one looks > for supporting evidence for Andrews' claims one finds them, but there may > still be problems here and there (in spite of the fact that the 2003 edition > was revised during a quarter of a century of constant use, although this is > no guarantee). At any rate, the problem of /kk/ > /hk/ that you bring up > needs to be solved. If no further examples turn up after an exhaustive > search, this rule should be crossed out from our collective list of possible > morphophonological changes. It occurs to me that a good place to start would > be to read through Carochi with this doubt in mind. I wish I had a > searchable digital version; that would make this task much quicker. Any > other sources that consistently use the glottal stop (there aren't that > many) should also be searched. I checked Launey's thesis but it he seems to > have spread his comments on morphophonology throughout his lengthy text, so > there's no quick fix. I don't have the time to solve this problem right now. > If any listeros have pertinent data, it would be helpful if they shared it. > The matter is of some importance. > > As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page 29 of > Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run through any > of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal stops > (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and > Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. > > So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works as "in > the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation > proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: > > Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). > > In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required is the > regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as "nuts-and-bolts > Nahuatl phonetics". > > The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk dissimilation, is > essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) becoming h > (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). > > Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c > + c > hc). > > Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the navel of the > Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard > "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal stops > were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as single. > (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. "inimexxaiac" > (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [máscara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, chapter > 30 of the Florentine Codex.) > > In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing > Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his > accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; these don't > alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, chapter 2, > he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah (people > from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark the long > vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual > procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in the > locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic suffix -ca > plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the double > x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. > > So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to > reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the presence > of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. > > Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker Antonio del > Rincón, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a Nahuatl > grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on this > matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the citation. > (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark glottal > stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they were > omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original manuscript > has not surfaced.) Here is what Rincón says, in the first chapter of book 4 > (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): > > "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde algo con > la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como adjetivo > v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el nombre, > metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, como > con los genitivos de los pronombres." > > In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio numbers), > we find this gloss: > > "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." > > It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tzx >> xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this context. At > least I don't see any viable alternatives. > > As John Sullivan pointed out, central Mexican toponymical etymology involves > going beyond morphological analysis and searching for the meanings behind > the names. I pointed out that most toponyms passed from one central Mexican > language to another as calques. Here's the data on the Otomi name for Mexico > Tenochtitlan that I mentioned in earlier post. It appears in the Huichapan > Codex (BNAH Testimonios Pictográficos 35-60), with two words: anbondo and > amadetzänä, sometimes written together, sometimes individually, much as we > find Mexico and Tenochtitlan together or apart. The final 'o' in Anbondo > represents a vowel midway between Spanish /o/ and /a/ and today is written > by the Otomi with an underlined 'a' (except in the Mezquital, where this > phoneme has shifted to /o/). So we have the singular nominal prefix an- with > the word 'bonda (underlined 'a'), where ' is a glottal stop. It means "the > red Opuntia fruit", the seedy fruit of the nopal cactus, of the sort that > stains your mouth bright red when you eat it. (On a deeper level, this type > of fruit is a metaphor for human hearts, food for the Sun, in Mexica > literature and iconography, e.g. cuauhnochtli, "Opuntia fruit of the eagle", > i.e. human hearts.) Anbondo is the semantic equivalent of the Nahuatl word > tenochtli. The second Otomi toponym is Amadetzänä, which can be parsed as > the singular nominal prefix (an - n) plus the adjective made ("middle") plus > the word tsänä (today zänä in Mezquital Otomi and some other variants), > "Moon". (The ä is a nasal /a/.) Thus Anbondo Amadetzänä can be translated > "the red Opuntia fruit in the middle of the Moon". > > The close match between Rincon's translation of Mexico and the Otomi toponym > Amadetsänä strongly supports the former's etymology. > > I guess that's all I have. I hope all this helps you to see the logic of the > navel/middle of the Moon hypothesis. Thanks for motivating me to spend an > interesting four hours looking at this problem and writing up the results. > Hopefully someone will help us resolve the kk > hk question. > > Saludos respetuosos, > > David Wright > > ******************************************************************** > The problem with Andrews' explanation, David, is that it's a fallacy based > on circular logic, with no supporting evidence. > > He explains the etymology of "Mexico," on page 500, on the basis of this > putative /kk/ > /?k/ shift, basing this pronouncement on an earlier note in > the explanation of Nahuatl phonology. The reader then goes to that note, on > page 35, only to find that he says, well, /kk/ > /?k/...and we see this in > the term... Mexihco. (!) Bad reasoning. We need real evidence, many more > examples. Andrews doesn't have any. :-) > > Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply states that the vowel > before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh... > > None of the above serves to explain the etymology of /me:xihco/, as far as I > can see. > > Saludos y buenos tardes, > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sun Jul 26 22:10:03 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:10:03 +0200 Subject: Me:xi'co and other toponyms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, It's good to see this topic receiving attention again. But please excuse me, Magnus, for setting the record straight on a few things -- this is just to avoid certain misconceptions getting perpetuated in cyberspace and beyond. 1) In the Navel/Centre of the Moon: David Wright was not saying that the idea was his. Nor was it Tibon's, which a mail by another contributor seemed to suggest. As David and I both had noted, the popularizer of this etymology was Jacques Soustelle, although, as David rightly points out, the etymology goes back to Rincón. And, as Michael McCafferty stresses, the actual evidence (incl. Carochi and Rincón) for the form and meaning of the name in the 16th century is not particularly overwhelming. After all, the fact that a language (or even group of languages) adopts a specific etymology in translating a place name does not make the etymology any more convincing or original than another -- we have plenty of examples of false or variant etymologies being so adopted. I even found one example of a Nahuatl name coming from a mistranslation of a 16th-century Spanish translation of a Oaxacan toponym! Besides, I have just offered an alternative etymology for Me:xi'co, namely that it derives from a legendary (or semi-legendary) ancestor, , linked to Hutzilopochtli -- the same Mexi after whom the (pre-Mexica) are named. The latter name can hardly be derived from me:tz- 'moon' plus xic- 'navel'! 2) The Otomi connection: You state that "Dr. Wright argues very convincingly that Mexico is a Nahua calque of an earlier oto-pamean placename". Actually, no he doesn't -- at least not in the mails posted recently. As far as I can tell, David does not claim an Otomi (let alone Otopamean) etymology for Me:xi'co. He and I merely repeated (with some phonological elaboration) the arguments and the connection already made by Soustelle in his classic introduction to Aztec civilization. It would not be very plausible ( -- in fact, it would be downright implausible -- ) to suggest that the Aztec capital itself is a translation of an Otomi name. 3) -ca:n toponyms: You write, "Dr. Sullivan: before reading your response I realized the weakness of my proposed translation of teotihuacan: you are right /ka:n/ is used for placenames derived form nominals! It should be teotihuaya:n for my etymology to work." Not quite. There are indeed many instances of -ca:n in place names NOT derived from nominals. These names consist of an intransitive verb + -ca:n (see my separate posting on Teo:tihua'ca:n vs. Teo:hua'ca:n). Thanks to all for the stimulating exchange! And thanks, Magnus, for the details on recent toponym history in Morelos. Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jul 27 02:58:09 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:58:09 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <20090726163109.1ombbfn3kscsw4o8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Estimado Michael: First a correction. You say "You didn't understand my first posting. I never once questioned this fact. I have always known it to be true. / It's simply that long /i:/ to short /i/ was not possible *in the context /kk/*, **which is as far as I could take the etymologizing of the 'Mexicco'**." To be precise, you did question the vowel shortening (i: > i) in the context of Me:xihco, that is, where the /i:/ immediately precedes a glottal stop /h/. What you said was "However, one cannot simply say that the long /i:/ of /xi:ctli/ goes to short /i/ in /me:xihco/. That's a leap to the Moon itself. What is the basis for this vowel shortening? This is not expected." In your next post you said "Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply states that the vowel before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh..." (I take "Uh..." as an expression of doubt here, although it's a rather ambiguous term, especially in writing as opposed to speech, where intonation and gesture provide more clues.) Then you say "NOPE. Not accepted. Not proven. / I would have to side with John Sullivan and says that we are dealing with something else," regarding both etymologies, Me:xxi:cco and Me:xxihco. I would remind you that we are checking the grammatical and morphological viabilities of two etymological hypotheses, not (at least in my case) choosing a favorite and blindly defending it. There are other hypotheses to be checked, some coming from classical sources, and some listeros have made useful suggestions in this sense. Saying "NOPE" without further argument won't get us very far, nor will taking "sides," since the vaguely negated hypotheses remain on the discussion table, in spite of the use of upper case letters to make the negation more "forceful." Both the negation and the taking of sides are essentially non-arguments, providing no new arguments nor data. As for Carochi's use of Me:xihco in 1645, you say "All I see here is more circular reasoning." The Carochi reference is a step toward breaking out of Andrews' loop. It is independent confirmation of Andrews' use of this form, coming from a highly informed source of the first half of the colonial period, who worked with a corpus of older documents and with the collaboration of a team of linguistically sophisticated native speakers in the linguistically oriented Jesuit college at Tepotzotlán, north of Mexico City (sometimes called "el círculo de Carochi" in recent scholarship). The sophistication of this team can be seen in the manuscripts they produced. Some are in the Bancroft Library and have been published by fellow listero Barry Sell in colaboration with Louise Burkhart. Karttunen used these as a source for restoring long vowels and glottal stops in her dictionary. I've done preliminary studies of manuscripts in Otomi coming from the Otomi "círculo de Carochi" at Tepotzotlán; one is at the Newberry, another at Princeton, a third at the BNAH in Mexico City. As for Rincón's use in 1595 of Mexicco, you say "Well...sorry. I see 'Moon' but I don't see 'navel'. All I smell is folk-etymology, and native speakers are abundantly capable of folk-etymologizing." Considering Rincón's translation, "en medio de la luna", we have me:tztli, "Moon," as the only word with this meaning in Nahuatl that begins with the sequence me, followed by the sequence xic, in a text where long vowels are not marked, with the meaning "middle," and the locative suffix -co at the end. The /x/ of xic would clearly justify suppressing the tz of me:tztli, at least in writing, which of course is what we're dealing with. Is there a better explanation, or even a remotely viable explanation, for a xic sequence having the meaning "middle," other than xi:ctli, "navel"? If there is, then we can spin another hypothesis and put it on the discussion table. If any hypothesis "works" within the known rules of early colonial central Mexican grammar, then it has a place on the table. Yes, native speakers of any language are capable of producing folk etymologies, but these aren't detected through the nose (what I'm trying to say is that the ground rules of science require that hunches be passed through the filters of rational, evidence-based analysis; hunches are part of the process, but in raw, unfiltered form they are of little consequence). Given the available evidence, determining the deep meaning of a central Mexican toponym in Nahuatl is often impossible, and all that scholars can do in many cases is to lay out all of the hypotheses that work, compare them to all the evidence available, and eliminate those that definitely don't work. We are often left with two or more possible etymologies, and all of these should be considered when applying these etymologies in our research (for example, in the analysis of pictorial signs in the native central Mexican scribal/artistic tradition). This doesn't play as well in the lecture hall as a well crafted piece of rhetoric where everything is neatly explained in a confident tone, but it gets our ideas a bit more in line with reality. One more point: if a lot of people in a society believe a folk etymology, then that etymology becomes culturally significant, regardless of the word's original meaning. Thus the meanings of toponyms may shift through time and space, and these shifts become important parts of the picture we're looking at. Needless to say they can affect the spelling of the words (and the way they are painted or carved in the pictorial texts). Finally, the Otomi calque Anbondo Amadetzänä, coinciding in meaning with the hypothetical etymologies Me:xxi:cco and Me:xxihco as "in the navel/middle of the Moon," is significant and deserves consideration. At least among western Mezquital Otomi of the early 17th century this was the meaning. The toponym "Mexicco," however you parse it, had the same meaning for a late 16th century indigenous noble from Texcoco, Rincón, who wrote an important description of his mother tongue, being the first to explain the importance of vowel length contrast and the glottal stop. Considering the weight of all of this evidence, I think it would be careless to dismiss Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco at this point. John Sullivan's recent post on the /kk/ > /hk/ problem would seem to tip the scales somewhat in favor of accepting Andrews' morphophonological rule in this case (although I don't consider the matter closed), which means that for now I have to leave the Me:xxihco ("in the navel of the Moon") hypothesis on the table. I hope this helps put things into focus and/or clears up at least some of your doubts. And above all, keep doubting; that's how knowledge advances. Con todo respeto, David Wright -----Mensaje original----- De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] Enviado el: domingo, 26 de julio de 2009 03:31 p.m. Para: David Wright CC: Nahuat-l (messages) Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" Quoting David Wright : >> > As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page 29 of > Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run through any > of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal stops > (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and > Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. David: You didn't understand my first posting. I never once questioned this fact. I have always known it to be true. It's simply that long /i:/ to short /i/ was not possible *in the context /kk/*, **which is as far as I could take the etymologizing of the "Mexicco"**. > > So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works as "in > the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation > proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: > > Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). > > In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required is the > regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as "nuts-and-bolts > Nahuatl phonetics". > > The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk dissimilation, is > essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) becoming h > (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). NOPE. Not accepted. Not proven. I would have to side with John Sullivan and says that we are dealing with something else. > > Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c > + c > hc). > > Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the navel of the > Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard > "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal stops > were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as single. > (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. "inimexxaiac" > (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [máscara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, chapter > 30 of the Florentine Codex.) > > In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing > Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his > accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; these don't > alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, chapter 2, > he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah (people > from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark the long > vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual > procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in the > locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic suffix -ca > plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the double > x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. > > So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to > reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the presence > of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. Is it just me? All I see here is more circular reasoning. > > Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker Antonio del > Rincón, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a Nahuatl > grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on this > matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the citation. > (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark glottal > stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they were > omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original manuscript > has not surfaced.) Here is what Rincón says, in the first chapter of book 4 > (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): > > "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde algo con > la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como adjetivo > v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el nombre, > metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, como > con los genitivos de los pronombres." > > In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio numbers), > we find this gloss: > > "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." > > It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tzx >> xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this context. At > least I don't see any viable alternatives. Well...sorry. I see "Moon" but I don't see "navel". All I smell is folk-etymology, and native speakers are abundantly capable of folk-etymologizing. I don't have internet at home these days, so I'll have to print this up and take it home. I'll study it and see if I can come to the same conclusions that you have. But so far, no good. But thanks for the ideas. Best, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jul 27 03:06:44 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:06:44 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <20090726164116.w0tmb2j3lwkkogok@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Estimado Michael: We've already cleared that one up. In one of the hypothetical etymologies we've been discussing (Me:xxihco or Me:xihco), /kk/ becomes /hk/, and the /h/ requires the /i:/ to shorten, the latter change having been accepted by consensus (in early colonial central Mexican Nahuatl at least; John raises doubts for modern Huastecan Nahuatl). So we're back to the question of /kk/ > /hk/ being a valid morphophonological change or not. Saludos cordiales, David -----Mensaje original----- De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] Enviado el: domingo, 26 de julio de 2009 03:41 p.m. Para: David Wright CC: Nahuat-l (messages) Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" Sorry. Just a short rejoinder. Out of curiosity I just looked up this place name in Karttunen's dictionary and found that she also has trouble accepting the "navel" explanation: "The etymology of this [Me:xihco] is opaque. Because of the difference in vowel length, it cannot be derived from ME-TL 'maguey'. The sequence XIH also differs in vowel length from XI:C-TLI 'navel,' which has been proposed as a component element..." Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jul 27 10:37:25 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:37:25 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <000001ca0e66$12fa7f60$38ef7e20$@net.mx> Message-ID: For the record. This was a misunderstanding. I didn't accept the /kk/ xi:cco going to /?k/ *in the first place*, so, what i intended to say was that, as far as I was concerned, no vowel shortening was possible. I still question the vowel shortening. It's very strange. Saludos y adios. Michael Quoting David Wright : > Estimado Michael: > > First a correction. You say "You didn't understand my first posting. I never > once questioned this > fact. I have always known it to be true. / It's simply that long /i:/ to > short /i/ was not possible *in the > context /kk/*, **which is as far as I could take the etymologizing of the > 'Mexicco'**." > > To be precise, you did question the vowel shortening (i: > i) in the context > of Me:xihco, that is, where the /i:/ immediately precedes a glottal stop > /h/. What you said was "However, one cannot simply say that the long /i:/ of > /xi:ctli/ goes to short /i/ in /me:xihco/. That's a leap to the Moon itself. > What is the basis for this vowel shortening? This is not expected." In your > next post you said "Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply > states that the vowel before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh..." (I take > "Uh..." as an expression of doubt here, although it's a rather ambiguous > term, especially in writing as opposed to speech, where intonation and > gesture provide more clues.) > > Then you say "NOPE. Not accepted. Not proven. / I would have to side with > John Sullivan and says that we are dealing with something else," regarding > both etymologies, Me:xxi:cco and Me:xxihco. I would remind you that we are > checking the grammatical and morphological viabilities of two etymological > hypotheses, not (at least in my case) choosing a favorite and blindly > defending it. There are other hypotheses to be checked, some coming from > classical sources, and some listeros have made useful suggestions in this > sense. Saying "NOPE" without further argument won't get us very far, nor > will taking "sides," since the vaguely negated hypotheses remain on the > discussion table, in spite of the use of upper case letters to make the > negation more "forceful." Both the negation and the taking of sides are > essentially non-arguments, providing no new arguments nor data. > > As for Carochi's use of Me:xihco in 1645, you say "All I see here is more > circular reasoning." The Carochi reference is a step toward breaking out of > Andrews' loop. It is independent confirmation of Andrews' use of this form, > coming from a highly informed source of the first half of the colonial > period, who worked with a corpus of older documents and with the > collaboration of a team of linguistically sophisticated native speakers in > the linguistically oriented Jesuit college at Tepotzotlán, north of Mexico > City (sometimes called "el círculo de Carochi" in recent scholarship). The > sophistication of this team can be seen in the manuscripts they produced. > Some are in the Bancroft Library and have been published by fellow listero > Barry Sell in colaboration with Louise Burkhart. Karttunen used these as a > source for restoring long vowels and glottal stops in her dictionary. I've > done preliminary studies of manuscripts in Otomi coming from the Otomi > "círculo de Carochi" at Tepotzotlán; one is at the Newberry, another at > Princeton, a third at the BNAH in Mexico City. > > As for Rincón's use in 1595 of Mexicco, you say "Well...sorry. I see 'Moon' > but I don't see 'navel'. All I smell is > folk-etymology, and native speakers are abundantly capable of > folk-etymologizing." Considering Rincón's translation, "en medio de la > luna", we have me:tztli, "Moon," as the only word with this meaning in > Nahuatl that begins with the sequence me, followed by the sequence xic, in a > text where long vowels are not marked, with the meaning "middle," and the > locative suffix -co at the end. The /x/ of xic would clearly justify > suppressing the tz of me:tztli, at least in writing, which of course is what > we're dealing with. Is there a better explanation, or even a remotely viable > explanation, for a xic sequence having the meaning "middle," other than > xi:ctli, "navel"? If there is, then we can spin another hypothesis and put > it on the discussion table. If any hypothesis "works" within the known rules > of early colonial central Mexican grammar, then it has a place on the table. > > Yes, native speakers of any language are capable of producing folk > etymologies, but these aren't detected through the nose (what I'm trying to > say is that the ground rules of science require that hunches be passed > through the filters of rational, evidence-based analysis; hunches are part > of the process, but in raw, unfiltered form they are of little consequence). > Given the available evidence, determining the deep meaning of a central > Mexican toponym in Nahuatl is often impossible, and all that scholars can do > in many cases is to lay out all of the hypotheses that work, compare them to > all the evidence available, and eliminate those that definitely don't work. > We are often left with two or more possible etymologies, and all of these > should be considered when applying these etymologies in our research (for > example, in the analysis of pictorial signs in the native central Mexican > scribal/artistic tradition). This doesn't play as well in the lecture hall > as a well crafted piece of rhetoric where everything is neatly explained in > a confident tone, but it gets our ideas a bit more in line with reality. One > more point: if a lot of people in a society believe a folk etymology, then > that etymology becomes culturally significant, regardless of the word's > original meaning. Thus the meanings of toponyms may shift through time and > space, and these shifts become important parts of the picture we're looking > at. Needless to say they can affect the spelling of the words (and the way > they are painted or carved in the pictorial texts). > > Finally, the Otomi calque Anbondo Amadetzänä, coinciding in meaning with the > hypothetical etymologies Me:xxi:cco and Me:xxihco as "in the navel/middle of > the Moon," is significant and deserves consideration. At least among western > Mezquital Otomi of the early 17th century this was the meaning. The toponym > "Mexicco," however you parse it, had the same meaning for a late 16th > century indigenous noble from Texcoco, Rincón, who wrote an important > description of his mother tongue, being the first to explain the importance > of vowel length contrast and the glottal stop. Considering the weight of all > of this evidence, I think it would be careless to dismiss Me:xxi:cco or > Me:xxihco at this point. John Sullivan's recent post on the /kk/ > /hk/ > problem would seem to tip the scales somewhat in favor of accepting Andrews' > morphophonological rule in this case (although I don't consider the matter > closed), which means that for now I have to leave the Me:xxihco ("in the > navel of the Moon") hypothesis on the table. > > I hope this helps put things into focus and/or clears up at least some of > your doubts. And above all, keep doubting; that's how knowledge advances. > > Con todo respeto, > > David Wright > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] > Enviado el: domingo, 26 de julio de 2009 03:31 p.m. > Para: David Wright > CC: Nahuat-l (messages) > Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" > > Quoting David Wright : > >>> >> As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page 29 of >> Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run through > any >> of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal stops >> (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and >> Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. > > David: > > You didn't understand my first posting. I never once questioned this > fact. I have always known it to be true. > > It's simply that long /i:/ to short /i/ was not possible *in the > context /kk/*, **which is as far as I could take the etymologizing of > the "Mexicco"**. > >> >> So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works as "in >> the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation >> proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: >> >> Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). >> >> In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required is the >> regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as > "nuts-and-bolts >> Nahuatl phonetics". >> >> The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk dissimilation, is >> essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) becoming > h >> (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). > > > NOPE. Not accepted. Not proven. > > I would have to side with John Sullivan and says that we are dealing > with something else. > > >> >> Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co > (c >> + c > hc). >> >> Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the navel of > the >> Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard >> "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal stops >> were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as single. >> (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. "inimexxaiac" >> (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [máscara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, > chapter >> 30 of the Florentine Codex.) >> >> In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing >> Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his >> accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; these > don't >> alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, chapter 2, >> he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah (people >> from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark the long >> vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual >> procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in the >> locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic suffix -ca >> plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the > double >> x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. >> >> So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to >> reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the presence >> of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. > > > Is it just me? All I see here is more circular reasoning. > >> >> Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker Antonio del >> Rincón, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a Nahuatl >> grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on this >> matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the citation. >> (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark > glottal >> stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they were >> omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original > manuscript >> has not surfaced.) Here is what Rincón says, in the first chapter of book > 4 >> (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): >> >> "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde algo > con >> la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como adjetivo >> v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el nombre, >> metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, como >> con los genitivos de los pronombres." >> >> In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio > numbers), >> we find this gloss: >> >> "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." >> >> It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) > (tzx >>> xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this context. At >> least I don't see any viable alternatives. > > > Well...sorry. I see "Moon" but I don't see "navel". All I smell is > folk-etymology, and native speakers are abundantly capable of > folk-etymologizing. > > > I don't have internet at home these days, so I'll have to print this up > and take it home. I'll study it and see if I can come to the same > conclusions that you have. But so far, no good. But thanks for the > ideas. > > Best, > > Michael > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Jul 26 21:49:29 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:49:29 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <000601ca0e2d$c1a629d0$44f27d70$@net.mx> Message-ID: Listeros, 1. /kk/ > /hk/ is an absolute rule for Huastecan Nahuatl. In fact, in the subject-specific object sets "nic-" and "tic-" followed by a consonant, the /k/ is practically inaudible. Further, -uh is pronounced /h/, and /kw-k > hk/. However, none of these sound changes result in the shortening of a preceeding long vowel. In other words, it is not the sound of the glottal stop that shortens the preceeding long vowel, it is the glottal stop itself. For this reason, though I'm sure that the "c" in "xi:ctli" is pronounced /h/ before /k/, I doubt that this would shorten the "i:". Is there any evidence in Classical Nahuatl (besides the possible example of "mexihco") of a "c" actually being written as an "h" or converting into the diacritic for a glottal stop, before another /k/? John On Jul 26, 2009, at 3:15 PM, David Wright wrote: > Muy estimado Michael: > > I'm glad we've gotten beyond the "messy phonology" argument to > something > more tangible, i.e. the possibility that one of Andrew's grammatical > rules > (/kk/ > /?k/) may be incorrect and that he offers little supporting > evidence > for it (only the toponym Me:xihco). The frequent lack of evidence > and of > showing where the examples are from is the weakest aspect of Andrews' > Introduction to Classical Nahuatl. I often turn to this book for > morphophonological information, since his treatment of this area > goes beyond > other sources I have at hand. You are right in being suspicious of the > statements he makes without displaying his evidence. Usually when > one looks > for supporting evidence for Andrews' claims one finds them, but > there may > still be problems here and there (in spite of the fact that the 2003 > edition > was revised during a quarter of a century of constant use, although > this is > no guarantee). At any rate, the problem of /kk/ > /hk/ that you > bring up > needs to be solved. If no further examples turn up after an exhaustive > search, this rule should be crossed out from our collective list of > possible > morphophonological changes. It occurs to me that a good place to > start would > be to read through Carochi with this doubt in mind. I wish I had a > searchable digital version; that would make this task much quicker. > Any > other sources that consistently use the glottal stop (there aren't > that > many) should also be searched. I checked Launey's thesis but it he > seems to > have spread his comments on morphophonology throughout his lengthy > text, so > there's no quick fix. I don't have the time to solve this problem > right now. > If any listeros have pertinent data, it would be helpful if they > shared it. > The matter is of some importance. > > As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page > 29 of > Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run > through any > of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal > stops > (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and > Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. > > So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works > as "in > the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation > proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: > > Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). > > In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required > is the > regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as "nuts- > and-bolts > Nahuatl phonetics". > > The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk > dissimilation, is > essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) > becoming h > (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). > > Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) > + co (c > + c > hc). > > Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the > navel of the > Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard > "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal > stops > were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as > single. > (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. > "inimexxaiac" > (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [máscara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, > chapter > 30 of the Florentine Codex.) > > In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing > Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his > accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; > these don't > alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, > chapter 2, > he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah > (people > from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark > the long > vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual > procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in > the > locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic > suffix -ca > plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the > double > x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. > > So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to > reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the > presence > of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. > > Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker > Antonio del > Rincón, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a > Nahuatl > grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on > this > matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the > citation. > (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark > glottal > stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they > were > omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original > manuscript > has not surfaced.) Here is what Rincón says, in the first chapter of > book 4 > (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): > > "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde > algo con > la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como > adjetivo > v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el > nombre, > metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, > como > con los genitivos de los pronombres." > > In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio > numbers), > we find this gloss: > > "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." > > It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - > tli) (tzx >> xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this >> context. At > least I don't see any viable alternatives. > > As John Sullivan pointed out, central Mexican toponymical etymology > involves > going beyond morphological analysis and searching for the meanings > behind > the names. I pointed out that most toponyms passed from one central > Mexican > language to another as calques. Here's the data on the Otomi name > for Mexico > Tenochtitlan that I mentioned in earlier post. It appears in the > Huichapan > Codex (BNAH Testimonios Pictográficos 35-60), with two words: > anbondo and > amadetzänä, sometimes written together, sometimes individually, much > as we > find Mexico and Tenochtitlan together or apart. The final 'o' in > Anbondo > represents a vowel midway between Spanish /o/ and /a/ and today is > written > by the Otomi with an underlined 'a' (except in the Mezquital, where > this > phoneme has shifted to /o/). So we have the singular nominal prefix > an- with > the word 'bonda (underlined 'a'), where ' is a glottal stop. It > means "the > red Opuntia fruit", the seedy fruit of the nopal cactus, of the sort > that > stains your mouth bright red when you eat it. (On a deeper level, > this type > of fruit is a metaphor for human hearts, food for the Sun, in Mexica > literature and iconography, e.g. cuauhnochtli, "Opuntia fruit of the > eagle", > i.e. human hearts.) Anbondo is the semantic equivalent of the > Nahuatl word > tenochtli. The second Otomi toponym is Amadetzänä, which can be > parsed as > the singular nominal prefix (an - n) plus the adjective made > ("middle") plus > the word tsänä (today zänä in Mezquital Otomi and some other > variants), > "Moon". (The ä is a nasal /a/.) Thus Anbondo Amadetzänä can be > translated > "the red Opuntia fruit in the middle of the Moon". > > The close match between Rincon's translation of Mexico and the Otomi > toponym > Amadetsänä strongly supports the former's etymology. > > I guess that's all I have. I hope all this helps you to see the > logic of the > navel/middle of the Moon hypothesis. Thanks for motivating me to > spend an > interesting four hours looking at this problem and writing up the > results. > Hopefully someone will help us resolve the kk > hk question. > > Saludos respetuosos, > > David Wright > > ******************************************************************** > The problem with Andrews' explanation, David, is that it's a fallacy > based > on circular logic, with no supporting evidence. > > He explains the etymology of "Mexico," on page 500, on the basis of > this > putative /kk/ > /?k/ shift, basing this pronouncement on an earlier > note in > the explanation of Nahuatl phonology. The reader then goes to that > note, on > page 35, only to find that he says, well, /kk/ > /?k/...and we see > this in > the term... Mexihco. (!) Bad reasoning. We need real evidence, many > more > examples. Andrews doesn't have any. :-) > > Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply states that the > vowel > before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh... > > None of the above serves to explain the etymology of /me:xihco/, as > far as I > can see. > > Saludos y buenos tardes, > > Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jul 27 11:56:24 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:56:24 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <000101ca0e67$45bfd2a0$d13f77e0$@net.mx> Message-ID: David, Gordon, John, Magnus, and anyone else still aboard this bronco. Here's how i see the problem, at least with four minutes to get to class: 1) Andrews' linguistic analysis, of an earlier idea, is simply circular and lacks any evidence. 2) John has given us an example of /kk/ going to /?k/. That's *one* little piece of evidence from Huastecan. 3) But John's shift doesn't give us a short vowel. And that's an important linguistic observation. Perhaps I'm inside Central Algonquian too much, but my sense of Nahuatl, as in C.A., is that vowel length is to be revered. :-) 4) Folk-etymologizing of another term beginning with */m:ex-/ is quite possible in giving us the "In the navel of the Moon" toponym. 5) I don't see any bedrock support in anything else that's been offered, the historical stuff, although I've enjoyed looking at it. Maybe #5's just my problem. Best, Michael Quoting David Wright : > Estimado Michael: > > We've already cleared that one up. In one of the hypothetical etymologies > we've been discussing (Me:xxihco or Me:xihco), /kk/ becomes /hk/, and the > /h/ requires the /i:/ to shorten, the latter change having been accepted by > consensus (in early colonial central Mexican Nahuatl at least; John raises > doubts for modern Huastecan Nahuatl). So we're back to the question of /kk/ >> /hk/ being a valid morphophonological change or not. > > Saludos cordiales, > > David > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] > Enviado el: domingo, 26 de julio de 2009 03:41 p.m. > Para: David Wright > CC: Nahuat-l (messages) > Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" > > Sorry. Just a short rejoinder. Out of curiosity I just looked up this > place name in Karttunen's dictionary and found that she also has > trouble accepting the "navel" explanation: > > "The etymology of this [Me:xihco] is opaque. Because of the difference > in vowel length, it cannot be derived from ME-TL 'maguey'. The sequence > XIH also differs in vowel length from XI:C-TLI 'navel,' which has been > proposed as a component element..." > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Jul 27 12:27:44 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:27:44 -0400 Subject: On Mexico Message-ID: Dear colleagues, We've had a fun time with this thread, but I think that we have about finished the discussion. Obviously, some points may never be clarified to the satisfaction of everyone. As a result, unless there is some truly substantive addition, revelation, or correction, let's suspend this discussion. Thanks, J. F. Schwaller -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Jul 27 14:20:10 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:20:10 -0500 Subject: apitzahuacan Message-ID: Gordon, Your example, "There are parallels for toponyms compounded of intransitive verb + -ca:n. For example, A:pitza:huaca:n 'Where the Water is Narrow'." seemed to blow a hole in the idea that -can is only used with preterite nouns. However, Molina has "Pitzauac. cosa delgada, (etc)". As we know, the combining form of these kinds of nouns is produced by changing the final "c" of the preterite to the older "ca", giving "pitzahuaca-". The locative "n" is then suffixed to form the place name. "Pitzahua" is both intransitive and transitive, so a decision would have to be made as to whether "atl" is functioning as an object or an adverb. The sense of apitzahuacan is pretty much the same is cholollan (from "chololli", "salto de agua"): it's the place where the river ravine narrows, producing a gush of water, reminiscent of the "breaking of the water" of the lake of Aztlan, pregnant with the original nahua clan founders. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Wed Jul 29 07:49:15 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:49:15 +0200 Subject: Mexitli / Mecitli vs. the accentuation of Mexico Message-ID: Hi Sharon, I hadn't mentioned this tradition directly because it has, I think, all the hallmarks of a folk etymology. Nice and quaint, though! Sahagun's informants are simply trying to find a way to explain what were probably to them opaque terms: Mexi('tli, pl. Mexi'tin). The glottal stop is hinted at by the variant -tli of Mecitli and by its alleged meaning, 'Maguey Hare', whereas the vowel length of the first syllable is indeterminate as attested, though clearly short in the term for 'maguey'. Even Carochi is not always explicit in giving the first vowel long in the name of the capital and its people, although the evidence suggests he did indeed hear it as such. Since Aztec informants are relating Mexitin and Mexica in Sahagun's encyclopaedia to me- 'maguey' with its short vowel, we are left with the distinct possibility that the vowel in the first syllable of the Aztec capital's name may not have been uniformly, or originally, long. Cf. the variant pronunciations for Canberra, the Australian capital, with the accent on the first syllable (the official pronunciation) or on the second (the intended pronunciation, still widespread today). In the latter instance, the official pronunciation is alleged to go back to the mispronunciation of the name by the woman who officially declared Canberra the capital! By the way, the Spanish pronunciation of the capital, with its accent on the first syllable, probably can be explained by the fact that Spanish speakers found it difficult to pronounce the first vowel long in an unaccented syllable, while accenting the second short vowel. A common enough phenomenon that we ourselves repeat when trying to pronounce Classical Nahuatl. So this would add to the arguments that a common or even dominant pronunciation of the capital in Aztec times was with a long first vowel. I am, incidentally, still surprised when such excellent scholars as Leon-Portilla put the accent on the in the juxtaposition Mexico Tenochtitlan, as I saw again recently. But again, perhaps a thorough study of intonation in Nahuatl dialects -- yet to be made -- would cause us to revise a number of our assumptions derived from prescriptive grammar. Hary matters, nonetheless. Best, Gordon Sharon wrote: > Just to add another dimension to this etymology stew with regard to > the name Mexica (or Mexiti), Sahagun (Book 10, p.189 of the Anderson/ > Dibble 1950-1982 translation of General History of the Things of New > Spain: Florentine Codex) states that: > "One alone is called Mexicatl; many are called Mexica. This comes > from the name Meçitli: me, that is to say, maguey; citli, rabbit. It > should be pronouced Meçicatl. Hence it is a corruption when Mexicatl > is said. > Acoording to tradition, the name of the priest who led the Mexica was > Meçitli. It is said that when he was born they named him Citli. And > they placed him in a maguey leaf, where he grew strong; wherefore was > he named Mecitli. And this one, when he matured, became a priest, a > keeper of the god. It is said that he spoke personally with the > devil, wherefore they revered him greatly; and all obeyed the one by > whome they were led. And since he led his subjects, therefore they > were given the name Mexica." > Best, > Sharon Edgar Greenhill ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Thu Jul 30 09:45:00 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:45:00 +0200 Subject: Apitzahuacan etc.: The case for verb + -ca:n In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi John, You certainly have suggested an interesting alternative analysis for Apitzahuacan. Of course, we're still stuck with Teotihuacan, which is usually interpreted as derived from verbal teo:tihua + -ca:n, ignoring the fact that the name is usually (even fashionably among scholars trying to score a point or two for exactness at conferences!) pronounced Teo:tihua'ca:n with a glottal stop, suggesting the chain -hua'-ca:n. As you know, I am one of the sceptics unconvinced that the name derives from a verb (originally). In this case, I much prefer an original Teo:hua'ca:n (as in present-day Tehuacan). But let's consider some other potential cases for intransitive verb + -ca:n. Dyckerhoff and Prem in their 1990 study list the following: Tlamelahuacan, from tla- + mela:hua 'be(come) straight' Caxahuacan, from caxa:hua 'be(come) thin; recede (as of water)' Apitzahuacan, from a:- 'water' + pitza:hua 'be(come) thin' (to which I would add the meaning 'be(come) narrow') Dykerhoff and Prem do mention the existence of the participial forms mela:huac and pitza:huac, but do not seem to regard them as directly involved in the toponyms. According to Dyckerhoff and Prem, there are also other types of intransitive verb + -ca:n, including: 1. verbs ending in -iuh (from -ihui) and -auh (from -ahui): Yahualiuhcan 'Where It is Round', from yahualihui 'be(come) round' Tzoncoliuhcan 'Where Hair is Curly / Where It is Curly Like Hair', from tzon- 'hair' + co:lihui 'be(come) curled/curly' Itztlacozauhcan 'Where the Obsidian is Yellowy / Where Things Are Yellowy Like Obsidian', from itz- 'obsidian' + tla- + *cozahui 'be(come) yellow' Icxicozauhcan 'Where Feet are Yellowy', from icxi- 'foot' + *cozahui (as above). 2. verbs ending in -uh (from -hui): Yayauhcan 'Where It is Dark', from yaya:hui 'be(come) dark' Cua(uh)tlatlauhcan 'Where Heads (or Trees) are Red' (could this be Ireland?!), from cua:- 'head' or cuauh- 'tree' + *tlatla:hui 'be(come) red' Atlatlauhcan 'Where the Water is Red', from a:- + *tlatla:hui Cuaxoxouhcan 'Where Heads are Blue/Green', from cua:- (as above) + xoxo:hui 'be(come) blue/green'. John, I have to admit, the case for Dyckerhoff and Prem's intransitive verb + -ca:n is weaker -- if we take these examples in isolation -- than the case for participle + -ca:n. Above all, in my opinion, because the derivations require unattested (but, however, solidly reconstructible) colour verbs in two instances (the starred forms). In contrast, we would have the attested participles/adjectives mela:huac, caxa:huac, pitza:huac, yahualiuhqui, co:liuhqui, cozauhqui, yaya:uhqui, tlatla:uhqui, and xoxo:uhqui. But there do remain many instances where an etymology involving a deverbal nominal rather than a verb directly is less plausible. Here are some examples from an inventory in Dyckerhoff and Prem listing cases of transitive verb + -ca:n: 1. Cacalomacan 'Where One Catches Crows', from ca:ca:lo:- 'crow' + ma: 'catch' 2. Nacapahuazcan 'Where One Cooks Meat in a Pot', from naca- 'meat' + pa:huaci 'cook in a pot' 3. Tzacualpacan 'Where One Washes the Pyramid', from tzacual- 'hillock; (temple-)pyramid' + pa:ca 'wash' I rather like their etymology for Tlalocan (yeah, I know, who doesn't have a pet etymology for Tlaloc?!): Tlalocan 'Where He Lies Stretched Out On (or As) the Earth', from tla:l- 'earth' + o 'lie stretched out'. This pertains to the fact that Tlaloc and the subordinate Tlaloque live in, and are associated with, the earth, and that the so-called chacmools in their Nahua form represent Tlaloc stretched out on the earth to receive hearts. I think there are still plenty of details worth discussing here, and in many instances I think the analysis can go either way. Best, Gordon > Gordon, > Your example, "There are parallels for toponyms compounded of > intransitive verb + -ca:n. For example, A:pitza:huaca:n 'Where the > Water is Narrow'." seemed to blow a hole in the idea that -can is only > used with preterite nouns. However, Molina has "Pitzauac. cosa > delgada, (etc)". As we know, the combining form of these kinds of > nouns is produced by changing the final "c" of the preterite to the > older "ca", giving "pitzahuaca-". The locative "n" is then suffixed to > form the place name. "Pitzahua" is both intransitive and transitive, > so a decision would have to be made as to whether "atl" is functioning > as an object or an adverb. > The sense of apitzahuacan is pretty much the same is cholollan (from > "chololli", "salto de agua"): it's the place where the river ravine > narrows, producing a gush of water, reminiscent of the "breaking of > the water" of the lake of Aztlan, pregnant with the original nahua > clan founders. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jul 31 00:24:18 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:24:18 -0500 Subject: Dissimilation: kk > hk Message-ID: Estimados listeros: I had a little time yesterday to put the kk > hk regressive dissimilation rule (Andrews, 2003: 35) to the test, since this remained as an unresolved loose end in a recent thread on this list. The first thing I did was to check the first edition of Andrews’ Introduction... (1975) to see if he gave any additional support, beyond the word Me:xihco, and I found that he did, although it’s pretty vague. On page 453 he says “The shift of /kk/ to /hk/ occurs dialectally.” That pointed me in the direction of modern varieties of Nahuatl. John Sullivan has pointed out in a recent post (July 26, 2009) that “/kk/ > /hk/ is an absolute rule for Huastecan Nahuatl”, based on his experience with this variety. In Pittman’s grammar of Tetelcingo Nahuatl (1954: 13) we find a description of “Regressive dissimilation on the pattern C1C1 > hC1 between k- ‘it’ and a stem-initial k or between other occasional clusters of identical consonants. “ *ni-k(koa)ti: > ni-h(koa)ti: ‘I-it(buy)go’ D54, “ *ti-k(cua)s-ki > ti-h(cua)s-ki ‘we-it(eat)will-pl’ D13, “ *xi-k(mat)ta > xi-k(mah)ta ‘impa-it(know)dur’ W39.” (Pittman's macrons have been changed to colons here.) Guion, Amith, Doty, and Shport (n.d.) register the same change in a phonological discussion of the effects of coda /h/ on tone conditioning in Balsas Nahuatl. This /h/ is described as a glottal fricative (the one represented in IPA as an ‘h’ with a little hook on top). A comparison of words in the examples with Karttunen’s Analytical Dictionary (1992) shows that the /h/ being discussed is found in the same position of the same words as Karttunen’s ‘h’ (representing the saltillo /?/) in at least some cases. In endnote 6 Guion et al. state: “While Ameyaltepec and Oapan have lost non-word-final coda *h (historical *h), /h/ can be found in surface forms in both Oapan and Ameyaltepec. In Oapan and Ameyaltepec geminate /kk/ and /ll/ > /hk/ and /hl/ and in Oapan /w/ > /h/ and /k/ > /h/ before all consonants. However, it is outside the scope of the current paper to investigate the phonetic nature of these /h/ productions, e.g., whether they are breathy or voiceless and whether they affect the F0 of the preceding vowel.” In a text on phonological analysis, published on the web and labeled “a working, pre-publication draft,” with the request “Please do not quote,” there is a chapter on dissimilation where an example of /kk/ > /xk/ (where x has its IPA value, a velar fricative, like ‘j’ in Spanish) is given, from North Puebla Nahuatl. This isn’t exactly the saltillo /?/, with known allophones [?] and [h], but it’s certainly in the neighborhood. Thus examples of Andrews’ dissimilation rule /kk/ > /hk/ may be found in three varieties of Nahuatl, showing that it may be considered a widespread morphophonological phenomenon. The fourth case, where /kk/ > /xk/, represents a phonologically similar change. Going back to early colonial central Mexican Nahuatl, John Sullivan’s question remains unanswered: “Is there any evidence in Classical Nahuatl (besides the possible example of 'mexihco') of a 'c' actually being written as an "h" or converting into the diacritic for a glottal stop, before another /k/?” Saludos cordiales, David Wright References Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, Austin/London, University of Texas Press, 1975. Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003. Guion, Susan G.; Amith, Jonathan D.; Doty, Christopher; Shport, Irina A., “Word-level prosody in Balsas Nahuatl: the origin, development, and acoustic correlates of tone in a stress accent language,” n.d., in Publications, Susan Guion Anderson (http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~guion/Guion_Publications.htm; access: Jul. 29 2009). Karttunen, Frances, An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, 2a. ed., Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 1992. Pittman, Richard Saunders, “A grammar of Tetelcingo Nahuatl,” in Language (Linguistic Society of America), vol. 30, no. 1, part 2, Jan.-Mar. 1954, pp. 5-67. Rincón, Antonio del, “Arte mexicana,” facsimile of the 1595 edition, in Obras clásicas sobre la lengua náhuatl, digital ed., Ascensión Hernández de León-Portilla, editor, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jul 31 03:31:58 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:31:58 -0500 Subject: Dissimilation: kk> hk Message-ID: Antonio del Rincón (1998 [1595]) wasn't supposed to be in the list of references in my last post. I was considering mentioning his phonological discussion on the saltillo, which I think means that he was hearing two allophones, probably [?] and [h], of the phoneme /?/. This has some bearing on the examples of kk > hk that I cited, but I left it out in an attempt to keep thinks as simple as possible. Since I mentioned it, here's the quote, respecting the original spelling and punctuation except for restoring the letter 'n' when it has been replaced by a diacritic over the preceding vowel, changing the letter 'u' to a 'v' when it's used as a consonant, and writing the cedilla as a z to avoid web transmission problems. The quote is on folios 63v and 64r (book 5, chapter 1): "[...] Accento del saltillo es, quando la syllaba breve se pronuncia con alguna aspereza como, tlazolli. "Esta aspereza no es del todo .H. hablando propriamente porque en la provincia de Tlaxcalla, y en algunas otras apartadas de Mexico pronuncian con este Spiritu aspero muy affectadamente de manera que no solo es .H. mas aun pronunciada con mucha aspereza y fuerza verbi gracia, tlacohtli, tlahtoani, y por esta causa con mucha razon algunos han llamado, a este espiritu aspero el saltillo, porque ni del todo a de ser .H. como en Tlaxcala ni suspension de la syllaba, como algunos han dicho. "Accento suspenso: porque ese es oficio del accento agudo que es largo y suspende la syllaba, y assi no es mas de una manera de salto, o singulto, que se haze en la syllaba, y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve. [...] "Ultimo nota los caracteres con que conoceremos estos accentos en este arte, el accento agudo desta manera ´ el grave ` el moderado ^ el saltillo [mutilated letter 'o' forming an arc like a letter 'u'] el breve tiene por señal el no tenerla". The printer was unable to include the "accents" or diacritical marks that Rincón originally used in his manuscript to mark vowel length and glottal stops, except in the last sentence of the quote, so we read tlazolli without the saltillo at the end of the first syllable, and we're missing some long vowels in his examples. Rincón's use of the letter 'h' should be seen in the light of 16th and early 17th century Spanish phonology, in which it still represented an aspiration (Cobarruvias, 1611: f. 459r), unlike today, although some speakers in New Spain during the first decades of the colonial period already pronounced it without aspiration, as revealed by a careful analysis of spelling conventions (Arias, 1997: 29-31). The phrase "y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve" lends support to the rule that long vowels shorten before a saltillo in early colonial central Mexican Nahuatl. As a native speaker of náhuatl, Rincón had a better grasp of phonetics than the Spanish grammarians that preceded him, like Olmos and Molina, and his attempt to set the phonological record straight is a watershed in the history of Nahuatl studies. Referencias Arias Álvarez, Beatriz, El español de México en el siglo XVI (estudio filológico de quince documentos), Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1997. Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebastián, “Tesoro de la lengua castellana, o española”, facsimile of the 1611 ed., in Lexicografía española peninsular, diccionarios clásicos, digital ed., Pedro Álvarez de Miranda, editor, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Rincón, Antonio del, “Arte mexicana”, facsimile of the 1595 ed., in Obras clásicas sobre la lengua náhuatl, digital ed., Ascensión Hernández de León-Portilla, editor, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Fri Jul 31 12:57:16 2009 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:57:16 -0400 Subject: Dissimilation: kk> hk In-Reply-To: <000301ca118f$76036550$620a2ff0$@net.mx> Message-ID: Dear David and all, In Balsas Nahuatl from Oapan to the east (and including Tula del Rio, an offshoot of Oapan from mid-nineteenth century) generally one finds C1C1 > hC1 where C1 is C and the subscript number 1 Actually, the rule applies to any homorganic consonants, so that from tsakwa one has o:kitsahkeh, etc. A morphologically conditioned exception concerns nasals, which act differently depending on the morpheme, but note that with object deletion: o:niknek (Ameyaltepec) o:nihnek (Oapan, where k > h / ____ C) one often finds o:hnek (which I write o:h'nek) Or, o:tiktek (Am) o:tihtek (Oapan) can be o:h'tek Thus one finds, from the C1C1 > hC1 change kahli nihkaki Surface [h] in Oapan and Ameyaltepec is representative, usually, of underlying w or k. o:toma:hkeh 'they got fat' (Oapan and Ameyaltepec) kichi:htok 'they are doing it' (Oapan) Anyway, starting in San Miguel Tecuiciapan and spreading east, kk > k ni-k-kaki is realized as nikaki, etc. This does not affect double /l/, which is still hl, as in kahli. k or kw initial verbs with 3sgS and 3sgO are sometimes realized without the overt expression of the object: 'kwa:s for kikwa:s. This deletion is optional, unlike the form nikwa:s, which is not. At some point east of San Miguel and west of Tlapa, the double /l/ is also degeminated to /l/, thus kali 'house' (Note that in Oapan, Ameyaltepec and neighboring villages kali is 'inside the house', prob. from kalitik (kalihtik). Tlapa area also has tlakwali, etc. Now, in the Sierra Norte de Puebla we have forms such as kali The -li absolutive is retained only with monomoraic stems: kali, pili, but not with longer stems, thus ta:l, mo:l, tapalo:l, etc. For kk, usually degeminated to k as in nikaki, etc. Also mika:ka:wal 'orphan'. But, before aspectual markers -keh, -ka, etc. one gets a double kk mikik 'he died' mikkeh 'they died' (in one group of villages mi:k he died and mikkeh 'they died', note the vowel lengthening to maintain a minimum well-formed word. There are also double /tt/ as in kimattok 'he knows it' (mati and durative -tok) As to double nasals, speakers I work with tend to want to write nn, e.g., kininneki 'he wants them' I don't really hear much difference in other speakers, where it sounds more like kinineki. I'll need to research this double nasal. Cheers, Jonathan Quoting David Wright : > Antonio del Rincón (1998 [1595]) wasn't supposed to be in the list of > references in my last post. I was considering mentioning his phonological > discussion on the saltillo, which I think means that he was hearing two > allophones, probably [?] and [h], of the phoneme /?/. This has some bearing > on the examples of kk > hk that I cited, but I left it out in an attempt to > keep thinks as simple as possible. > > Since I mentioned it, here's the quote, respecting the original spelling and > punctuation except for restoring the letter 'n' when it has been replaced by > a diacritic over the preceding vowel, changing the letter 'u' to a 'v' when > it's used as a consonant, and writing the cedilla as a z to avoid web > transmission problems. The quote is on folios 63v and 64r (book 5, chapter > 1): > > "[...] Accento del saltillo es, quando la syllaba breve se pronuncia con > alguna aspereza como, tlazolli. > "Esta aspereza no es del todo .H. hablando propriamente porque en la > provincia de Tlaxcalla, y en algunas otras apartadas de Mexico pronuncian > con este Spiritu aspero muy affectadamente de manera que no solo es .H. mas > aun pronunciada con mucha aspereza y fuerza verbi gracia, tlacohtli, > tlahtoani, y por esta causa con mucha razon algunos han llamado, a este > espiritu aspero el saltillo, porque ni del todo a de ser .H. como en > Tlaxcala ni suspension de la syllaba, como algunos han dicho. > "Accento suspenso: porque ese es oficio del accento agudo que es largo y > suspende la syllaba, y assi no es mas de una manera de salto, o singulto, > que se haze en la syllaba, y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve. > [...] > "Ultimo nota los caracteres con que conoceremos estos accentos en este > arte, el accento agudo desta manera ´ el grave ` el moderado ^ el saltillo > [mutilated letter 'o' forming an arc like a letter 'u'] el breve tiene por > señal el no tenerla". > > The printer was unable to include the "accents" or diacritical marks that > Rincón originally used in his manuscript to mark vowel length and glottal > stops, except in the last sentence of the quote, so we read tlazolli without > the saltillo at the end of the first syllable, and we're missing some long > vowels in his examples. > > Rincón's use of the letter 'h' should be seen in the light of 16th and early > 17th century Spanish phonology, in which it still represented an aspiration > (Cobarruvias, 1611: f. 459r), unlike today, although some speakers in New > Spain during the first decades of the colonial period already pronounced it > without aspiration, as revealed by a careful analysis of spelling > conventions (Arias, 1997: 29-31). > > The phrase "y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve" lends support to > the rule that long vowels shorten before a saltillo in early colonial > central Mexican Nahuatl. As a native speaker of náhuatl, Rincón had a better > grasp of phonetics than the Spanish grammarians that preceded him, like > Olmos and Molina, and his attempt to set the phonological record straight is > a watershed in the history of Nahuatl studies. > > Referencias > > Arias Álvarez, Beatriz, El español de México en el siglo XVI (estudio > filológico de quince documentos), Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones > Filológicas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1997. > > Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebastián, “Tesoro de la lengua castellana, o española”, > facsimile of the 1611 ed., in Lexicografía española peninsular, diccionarios > clásicos, digital ed., Pedro Álvarez de Miranda, editor, Madrid, Fundación > Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. > > Rincón, Antonio del, “Arte mexicana”, facsimile of the 1595 ed., in Obras > clásicas sobre la lengua náhuatl, digital ed., Ascensión Hernández de > León-Portilla, editor, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre > Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jul 31 16:23:10 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:23:10 -0400 Subject: Dissimilation: kk> hk Message-ID: Thanks to David and Jonathan for their digging into /kk/ going to /hk/. Things are coming into focus with the surfacing of some items. Gordon's and John's continued wrestling with "King -ca:n" is very interesting and will surely be productive. I'm curious about Joe's experience with these two items, including expereience in the field, as well as that of Bill Mills, if he has looked into either of these ideas and if in fact he is a member of this discussion group. Now, ref: A:pitzhuaca:n This sounds purely intransitive to me, in other words, this is a place where things (rocks, natural features) narrow "in a watery way". The place names seems altogether as intransitive as, say, Tzoncoliuhcan, which Gordon offered yesterday, "where 'things' are curled up in a hair way" The transitive interpretation would be quite unusual for A:pitzahuaca:n, as we wouldn't really have a dummy subject for transitive "pitzahua," as we can at least posit for the transitive verb examples of similar place names offered yesterday by Gordon. Now, in closing, and perhaps too simplistically--but like Carochi-- I've always thought that these -ca:n place names were built on the "preterite" singular form of the verb, i.e., -pitzahuac + -ca:n -> -pitzahuacca:n -> -pitzahuaca:n . Tlaxtlahui, Michael Quoting jonathan.amith at yale.edu: > Dear David and all, > > In Balsas Nahuatl from Oapan to the east (and including Tula del Rio, an > offshoot of Oapan from mid-nineteenth century) generally one finds > > C1C1 > hC1 where C1 is C and the subscript number 1 > > Actually, the rule applies to any homorganic consonants, so that from > tsakwa one > has o:kitsahkeh, etc. > > A morphologically conditioned exception concerns nasals, which act > differently > depending on the morpheme, but note that with object deletion: > > o:niknek (Ameyaltepec) o:nihnek (Oapan, where k > h / ____ C) one > often finds > > o:hnek (which I write o:h'nek) > > Or, o:tiktek (Am) o:tihtek (Oapan) can be o:h'tek > > Thus one finds, from the C1C1 > hC1 change > > kahli > nihkaki > > Surface [h] in Oapan and Ameyaltepec is representative, usually, of > underlying w > or k. > > o:toma:hkeh 'they got fat' (Oapan and Ameyaltepec) > kichi:htok 'they are doing it' (Oapan) > > Anyway, starting in San Miguel Tecuiciapan and spreading east, kk > k > > ni-k-kaki is realized as nikaki, etc. > This does not affect double /l/, which is still hl, as in kahli. k or > kw initial > verbs with 3sgS and 3sgO are sometimes realized without the overt > expression of > the object: 'kwa:s for kikwa:s. This deletion is optional, unlike the form > nikwa:s, which is not. > > At some point east of San Miguel and west of Tlapa, the double /l/ is also > degeminated to /l/, thus kali 'house' (Note that in Oapan, Ameyaltepec and > neighboring villages kali is 'inside the house', prob. from kalitik > (kalihtik). > Tlapa area also has tlakwali, etc. > > Now, in the Sierra Norte de Puebla we have forms such as > kali > The -li absolutive is retained only with monomoraic stems: kali, > pili, but not > with longer stems, thus ta:l, mo:l, tapalo:l, etc. > > For kk, usually degeminated to k as in nikaki, etc. Also mika:ka:wal > 'orphan'. > But, before aspectual markers -keh, -ka, etc. one gets a double kk > > mikik 'he died' mikkeh 'they died' (in one group of villages mi:k he > died and > mikkeh 'they died', note the vowel lengthening to maintain a minimum > well-formed word. > > There are also double /tt/ as in kimattok 'he knows it' (mati and > durative -tok) > > As to double nasals, speakers I work with tend to want to write nn, e.g., > kininneki 'he wants them' I don't really hear much difference in other > speakers, where it sounds more like kinineki. I'll need to research > this double > nasal. > > Cheers, Jonathan > > > > > Quoting David Wright : > >> Antonio del Rincón (1998 [1595]) wasn't supposed to be in the list of >> references in my last post. I was considering mentioning his phonological >> discussion on the saltillo, which I think means that he was hearing two >> allophones, probably [?] and [h], of the phoneme /?/. This has some bearing >> on the examples of kk > hk that I cited, but I left it out in an attempt to >> keep thinks as simple as possible. >> >> Since I mentioned it, here's the quote, respecting the original spelling and >> punctuation except for restoring the letter 'n' when it has been replaced by >> a diacritic over the preceding vowel, changing the letter 'u' to a 'v' when >> it's used as a consonant, and writing the cedilla as a z to avoid web >> transmission problems. The quote is on folios 63v and 64r (book 5, chapter >> 1): >> >> "[...] Accento del saltillo es, quando la syllaba breve se pronuncia con >> alguna aspereza como, tlazolli. >> "Esta aspereza no es del todo .H. hablando propriamente porque en la >> provincia de Tlaxcalla, y en algunas otras apartadas de Mexico pronuncian >> con este Spiritu aspero muy affectadamente de manera que no solo es .H. mas >> aun pronunciada con mucha aspereza y fuerza verbi gracia, tlacohtli, >> tlahtoani, y por esta causa con mucha razon algunos han llamado, a este >> espiritu aspero el saltillo, porque ni del todo a de ser .H. como en >> Tlaxcala ni suspension de la syllaba, como algunos han dicho. >> "Accento suspenso: porque ese es oficio del accento agudo que es largo y >> suspende la syllaba, y assi no es mas de una manera de salto, o singulto, >> que se haze en la syllaba, y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve. >> [...] >> "Ultimo nota los caracteres con que conoceremos estos accentos en este >> arte, el accento agudo desta manera ´ el grave ` el moderado ^ el saltillo >> [mutilated letter 'o' forming an arc like a letter 'u'] el breve tiene por >> señal el no tenerla". >> >> The printer was unable to include the "accents" or diacritical marks that >> Rincón originally used in his manuscript to mark vowel length and glottal >> stops, except in the last sentence of the quote, so we read tlazolli without >> the saltillo at the end of the first syllable, and we're missing some long >> vowels in his examples. >> >> Rincón's use of the letter 'h' should be seen in the light of 16th and early >> 17th century Spanish phonology, in which it still represented an aspiration >> (Cobarruvias, 1611: f. 459r), unlike today, although some speakers in New >> Spain during the first decades of the colonial period already pronounced it >> without aspiration, as revealed by a careful analysis of spelling >> conventions (Arias, 1997: 29-31). >> >> The phrase "y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve" lends support to >> the rule that long vowels shorten before a saltillo in early colonial >> central Mexican Nahuatl. As a native speaker of náhuatl, Rincón had a better >> grasp of phonetics than the Spanish grammarians that preceded him, like >> Olmos and Molina, and his attempt to set the phonological record straight is >> a watershed in the history of Nahuatl studies. >> >> Referencias >> >> Arias Álvarez, Beatriz, El español de México en el siglo XVI (estudio >> filológico de quince documentos), Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones >> Filológicas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1997. >> >> Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebastián, “Tesoro de la lengua castellana, o española”, >> facsimile of the 1611 ed., in Lexicografía española peninsular, diccionarios >> clásicos, digital ed., Pedro Álvarez de Miranda, editor, Madrid, Fundación >> Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. >> >> Rincón, Antonio del, “Arte mexicana”, facsimile of the 1595 ed., in Obras >> clásicas sobre la lengua náhuatl, digital ed., Ascensión Hernández de >> León-Portilla, editor, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre >> Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > -- > Jonathan D. Amith > Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages > Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University > of Chicago > (O) 717-337-6795 > (H) 717-338-1255 > Mail to: > Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology > Gettysburg College > Campus Box 412 > 300 N. Washington Street > Gettysburg, PA 17325 > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jul 31 19:28:23 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:28:23 -0500 Subject: Dissimilation: kk > hk Message-ID: Thanks, Jonathan. That's all very interesting. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From macehual08 at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 21:12:43 2009 From: macehual08 at gmail.com (macehual08 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:12:43 -0400 Subject: "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? Message-ID: I just came across a definition in "Oxford Music Online" (in an article on Mexican music by E. Thomas Stanford and Arturo Chamorro) that defines Nahuatl as "sonorous, audible, council; law" AND "to dance embraced at the neck." Is anyone familiar with the second definition? Nahuatl as a "dance embraced at the neck"? I don't see this definition in Molina, Siméon, Karttunen and wonder if anyone knows where this association might come from? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From roland.trevino at charter.net Wed Jul 1 19:48:20 2009 From: roland.trevino at charter.net (roland.trevino at charter.net) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:48:20 -0700 Subject: question about Atlatl Message-ID: I know that an Atlatl is a spear thrower used by Aztecs. What does one call in Nahuatl 'one who uses the Atlatl'? _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Jul 2 14:41:03 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:41:03 -0400 Subject: question about Atlatl In-Reply-To: <20090701154820.DIY9E.1159685.root@mp16> Message-ID: Quoting roland.trevino at charter.net: > I know that an Atlatl is a spear thrower used by Aztecs. What does > one call in Nahuatl 'one who uses the Atlatl'? > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > a person with an atlatl, Roland, would be an ahtlahuah. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Jul 6 13:06:48 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 09:06:48 -0400 Subject: Huiquipedia - Wikipedia in Nahuatl Message-ID: I just found out about a Wikipedia in Nahuatl called Huiquipedia: -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Jul 6 13:07:59 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 09:07:59 -0400 Subject: Huiquipedia - Wikipedia in Nahuatl Message-ID: I just found out about a Wikipedia in Nahuatl called Huiquipedia: http://nah.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calixatl -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jul 6 21:59:52 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 17:59:52 -0400 Subject: Huiquipedia - Wikipedia in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <4A51F72F.6030203@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Came across this sometime a few months ago, and figured, since i'm the last one to hear about anything technological, that everyone knew about it. :) Michael Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > > I just found out about a Wikipedia in Nahuatl called Huiquipedia: > > http://nah.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calixatl > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jcarlos at gruposui.com Tue Jul 7 00:40:00 2009 From: jcarlos at gruposui.com (Juan Carlos) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 19:40:00 -0500 Subject: Ixnahualtongo y Xocongo Message-ID: Si existe un barrio llamado Santa Cruz Acatl?n, efectivamente se encuentra dentro de la colonia Tr?nsito, justo detr?s de la antigua Iglesia de San Antonio Abad cuyas ruinas est?n justo en la calzada del mismo nombre, ah?, dos calles hacia el sureste de dicho templo se halla el de la Santa Cruz Acatl?n precisamente a unos metros de la calle de Xocongo. Del mismo modo podemos encontrar la iglesia de La Concepci?n Ixnahualtongo detr?s del mercado de Sonora justo en la esquina de las calles Cuitlahuac y Privada Cuitlahuac esta ?ltima a su vez es la prolongaci?n de la calle de Ixnahualtongo que corre hacia el sur, paralela a la viga, desde tiempos antiguos para unirse al antiguo Barrio de La Resurrecci?n que se localiza a unos metros de la Avenida del Taller. Y como un dato m?s, en la esquina de las calles de Taller y Clavijero en la colonia Tr?nsito se encuentra parroquia, antigua capilla, de la Santa Cruz y la Preciosa Sangre de Cristo, edificaci?n del siglo XVI del tipo franciscano aunque muy reformada y que se conoce popularmente como "la santa crucita" ya que originalmente fue ayuda de la Santa Cruz Acatl?n que est? cerca de ah?. Tambi?n es muy probable que hubiese existido un antiguo camino que uniese al barrio de Acatl?n y al de Ixnahualtongo en lo que hoy se conoce como callej?n de San Antonio Abad y tambi?n es probable que este que cruzase el canal de la Viga por el antiguo Puente de Pipis. Saludos! _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sun Jul 12 15:49:50 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 17:49:50 +0200 Subject: The particle 'in' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello everyone, I'm trying at the moment to track down studies of the Nahuatl particle 'in'. I seem to recall that an article with exactly this focus was published in the '60s or 'early '70s, but I can't seem to find the reference. I thought it was in IJAL ,but it looks like I was mistaken. I would be very grateful if some kind reader could please help me out here. Thanks! Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sun Jul 12 16:00:23 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:00:23 +0200 Subject: John Bierhorst's Romances (the literary kind, that is) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello again, My copy of John Bierhorst's excellent edition of the Romances arrived this week and I haven't been able to put it down. Apart from the wealth of details and ideas it contains, some of which remain as controversial but positively thought-provoking as his Cantares, there is also information on a new web page where one can search the Romances and discover additional gems of information. The question is: Does anyone know when the page, , will be operable? It was advertised to open up for business at the same time as the printed edition, but this is not the case. There is nothing as yet to click on, just a repository where one can leave one's e-mail address -- this crashed when I tried to use it. I imagine the site will be up and running very soon, and will surely be an excellent new resource. Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 17:30:46 2009 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:30:46 -0500 Subject: The particle 'in' In-Reply-To: <49784.84.132.243.56.1247413790.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Hello, You might try Jane Rosenthal as an author. She worked on "in" when she was working on her Masters in Linguistics at the University of Chicago at about that time. Kay Read On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I'm trying at the moment to track down studies of the Nahuatl particle > 'in'. I seem to recall that an article with exactly this focus was > published in the '60s or 'early '70s, but I can't seem to find the > reference. I thought it was in IJAL ,but it looks like I was mistaken. I > would be very grateful if some kind reader could please help me out here. > Thanks! > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gordon Whittaker > Professor > Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 12 17:57:05 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 13:57:05 -0400 Subject: The particle 'in' In-Reply-To: <3eb115df0907121030x7c820204x1665acce86dbcdb1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Holatzin, Gordon, I don't know the answer to your question. It just made me think of some of my favorite Nahuatl terms-- i:ntzin and o:ntzin, and then "in i:ntzin," sometimes written inintzin. Do you have Andrews II? He goes into /in/, the vocable that introduces clauses in pretty great detail throughout his book. I don't remember his referencing an article such as you're referring to if he read it. Michael > > On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> I'm trying at the moment to track down studies of the Nahuatl particle >> 'in'. I seem to recall that an article with exactly this focus was >> published in the '60s or 'early '70s, but I can't seem to find the >> reference. I thought it was in IJAL ,but it looks like I was mistaken. I >> would be very grateful if some kind reader could please help me out here. >> Thanks! >> >> Best wishes, >> Gordon >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Gordon Whittaker >> Professor >> Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik >> Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie >> Universitaet Goettingen >> Humboldtallee 19 >> 37073 Goettingen >> Germany >> tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 >> tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Claudine.Hartau at HVN.uni-hamburg.de Mon Jul 13 08:28:35 2009 From: Claudine.Hartau at HVN.uni-hamburg.de (Hartau, Dr. Claudine) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:28:35 +0200 Subject: The particle 'in' In-Reply-To: <49784.84.132.243.56.1247413790.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Dear Gordon, I think you mean Jane Rosenthal: "The omnipresent problem of omnipresent in in Classical Nahuatl", MA thesis 1971, University of Chicago. I can make you a copy, if you wish, we have it in our library. Best wishes, Claudine *************************************************** Dr. Claudine Hartau Pers?nliche Referentin des Vizepr?sidenten Prof. Dr. Holger Fischer Universit?t Hamburg Edmund-Siemers-Allee 1 20146 Hamburg Tel. 040/ 4 28 38-5293 Fax 040/ 4 28 38-6994 -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] Im Auftrag von Gordon Whittaker Gesendet: Sonntag, 12. Juli 2009 17:50 An: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Betreff: [Nahuat-l] The particle 'in' Hello everyone, I'm trying at the moment to track down studies of the Nahuatl particle 'in'. I seem to recall that an article with exactly this focus was published in the '60s or 'early '70s, but I can't seem to find the reference. I thought it was in IJAL ,but it looks like I was mistaken. I would be very grateful if some kind reader could please help me out here. Thanks! Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Jul 13 12:37:29 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:37:29 -0400 Subject: Bierhorst on web Message-ID: I just checked the web page: http://www.utdigital.org/ And it is up and running, but it indicates that the full digital version will be up and running after the print version. On the site you can sign up for an e-mail notification of when the web page is launched. -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Mon Jul 13 23:13:46 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 01:13:46 +0200 Subject: On in Message-ID: Dear Fran, Kay, Michael and Claudine, Thank you all very much for your very helpful comments. And thanks, Claudine, for your offer concerning a copy of Jane Rosenthal's MA thesis, for which I would be eternally grateful. Let me know if there's anything in G?ttingen I could send you in return (photocopies, euros, jade, a few quetzal feathers). We could set up a kind of kula ring, now that Mesoamericanist Studies in Germany has been moved up on the 'endangered species' list to 'almost extinct'. I seem to recall that someone either gave a paper on IN or published an article (as opposed to a thesis) specifically on the subject, and that IN was in the title. I had tried in Andrews and elsewhere to track it down, but without success. I remember seeing the reference in the mid '80s, and do recall that the author was a woman, one whom I've actually met, but my recollection was that the author in question died some time afterwards, which is why I feel sure that someone else besides Rosenthal had published on IN. Now, if only I could remember the name ... Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Mon Jul 13 23:30:28 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 01:30:28 +0200 Subject: Bierhorst on the web In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Fritz, No, it's still the same as when I checked. Just a skeleton -- a rather pretty one at that --, but a skeleton all the same. The book states (on p. xiii) that the online edition is already up and running, which is unfortunately not yet the case. And, as I mentioned, the site itself only allows registration of an e-mail address so that one can be notified when the site gets going. The web page 'About' [the Ballads of the Lords of New Spain] states that the print and online versions are to "launch concurrently", not after each other. But that's fine. Does anyone happen to know when the online edition gets running? Best, Gordon > Date: 13 Jul 2009 08:37:29 -0400 > From: "John F. Schwaller" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Bierhorst on web > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > I just checked the web page: > > http://www.utdigital.org/ > > And it is up and running, but it indicates that the full digital version > will be up and running after the print version. On the site you can sign > up for an e-mail notification of when the web page is launched. > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President, > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Tue Jul 14 02:48:18 2009 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:48:18 -0700 Subject: On in In-Reply-To: <49752.84.132.195.35.1247526826.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Jane Rosenthal also had some article appear in the CLS papers on this subject in the early 70s, the 1972 ?Chicago Which Hunt? and the 1973 ?You Take the High Node and I?ll Take the Low Node?. Ronald Langacker then commented on Classical Nahuatl relative clauses in IJAL (1974, v. 41). Also in the CLS papers Frances Karttunen responded to Rosenthal?s and Langacker?s previous articles in 1976. --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Gordon Whittaker wrote: From: Gordon Whittaker Subject: [Nahuat-l] On in To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 7:13 PM Dear Fran, Kay, Michael and Claudine, Thank you all very much for your very helpful comments. And thanks, Claudine, for your offer concerning a copy of Jane Rosenthal's MA thesis, for which I would be eternally grateful. Let me know if there's anything in G?ttingen I could send you in return (photocopies, euros, jade, a few quetzal feathers). We could set up a kind of kula ring, now that Mesoamericanist Studies in Germany has been moved up on the 'endangered species' list to 'almost extinct'. I seem to recall that someone either gave a paper on IN or published an article (as opposed to a thesis) specifically on the subject, and that IN was in the title. I had tried in Andrews and elsewhere to track it down, but without success. I remember seeing the reference in the mid '80s, and do recall that the author was a woman, one whom I've actually met, but my recollection was that the author in question died some time afterwards, which is why I feel sure that someone else besides Rosenthal had published on IN. Now, if only I could remember the name ... Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From kay.a.read at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 14:14:32 2009 From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:14:32 -0500 Subject: On in In-Reply-To: <135517.21229.qm@web111507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello Again, Gordan, your description of this person pretty much fits Jane to a tee, except that I can't answer for whether you had ever met her or not. I suspect that you have though, since before her death a few years ago, she was a regular attendee at conferences. Kay On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Michael Swanton wrote: > Jane Rosenthal also had some article appear in the CLS papers on this > subject in the early 70s, the 1972 ?Chicago Which Hunt? and the 1973 ?You > Take the High Node and I?ll Take the Low Node?. Ronald Langacker then > commented on Classical Nahuatl relative clauses in IJAL (1974, v. 41). Also > in the CLS papers Frances Karttunen responded to Rosenthal?s and Langacker?s > previous articles in 1976. > > > --- On *Mon, 7/13/09, Gordon Whittaker * wrote: > > > From: Gordon Whittaker > Subject: [Nahuat-l] On in > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 7:13 PM > > > Dear Fran, Kay, Michael and Claudine, > > Thank you all very much for your very helpful comments. And thanks, > Claudine, for your offer concerning a copy of Jane Rosenthal's MA thesis, > for which I would be eternally grateful. Let me know if there's anything > in G?ttingen I could send you in return (photocopies, euros, jade, a few > quetzal feathers). We could set up a kind of kula ring, now that > Mesoamericanist Studies in Germany has been moved up on the 'endangered > species' list to 'almost extinct'. > > I seem to recall that someone either gave a paper on IN or published an > article (as opposed to a thesis) specifically on the subject, and that IN > was in the title. I had tried in Andrews and elsewhere to track it down, > but without success. I remember seeing the reference in the mid '80s, and > do recall that the author was a woman, one whom I've actually met, but my > recollection was that the author in question died some time afterwards, > which is why I feel sure that someone else besides Rosenthal had published > on IN. Now, if only I could remember the name ... > > Best, > Gordon > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gordon Whittaker > Professor > Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Tue Jul 14 18:44:50 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:44:50 +0200 Subject: Jane Rosenthal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, Thank you, Fran and Kay, for confirming that the author of the IN contributions was Jane Rosenthal -- I had indeed vaguely recollected that her name was either Jane or Joan. I only had one evening chatting with her together with Una Canger after a conference and still remember her as a charming and very modest person (with a great sense of humour). It really is sad when good people die young. Thanks also to Fran and Michael for the refs to the CLS papers. I imagine that fathoming the ins and outs of IN will probably keep scholars busy for some time to come. Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Jul 14 17:48:36 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:48:36 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl workshop at Yale Message-ID: Listeros, One more thing. I think there is a consensus among Nahuatl scholars that it would be nice to have a regular yearly workshop where people could get together and work on headache-producing morphs, words, texts, etc., from any Nahuatl variant over space and time. There would no formalities, no papers presented, just friends getting together to talk shop (going out and eating together would be nice too). I am proposing Yale as the site for these meetings, and since Delfina de la Cruz and I will be there the week of August 24th attending language TA training, I would like to know if anyone would like to participate in a workshop, perhaps Friday and Saturday, August 28 and 29. There will be no support for travel, food or lodging for anyone, and Yale only needs to provide us with a classroom. Any takers? If the dates are too soon, we'll set a time for later in the year. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Jul 14 17:06:16 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:06:16 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl distance courses Message-ID: Listeros, We at the Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas taught an introductory level distance course in Classical and Modern Nahuatl at Yale last year. We will teach the same course at Yale, Columbia and NYU this next school year, and we will be developing the curriculum for intermediate and advanced level studies. These courses will be taught live by myself and my native speaking TAs using Adobe Acrobat Connect Pro, a web based program which permits live audio and video interaction between instructor and students, as well as an interactive whiteboard and the presentation of pre-recorded audio-visual material. Each course includes two hours per week of Classical Nahuatl and three hours per week of Modern Huastecan Nahuatl. We would like to provide students with language tools and cultural information that will allow them to better understand not only Nahua Civilization but all aspects of the economic, political, cultural, social and historical evolution of Mexico. At some point in the near future, we plan to offer enrollment to anyone in the world with an internet connection. If you are interested in taking these courses, please contact Jean Silk (jean.silk at yale.edu), Assistant Chair for the Yale University Council on Latin American & Iberian Studies. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 01:14:23 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:14:23 -0400 Subject: On in: Calling attention to the french again Message-ID: I suppose you already have looked at Launey's dissertation, but I just wanted to mention that he has a very good analysis of the functions of in. Magnus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mcdo0030 at umn.edu Wed Jul 15 12:01:59 2009 From: mcdo0030 at umn.edu (Kelly McDonough) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:01:59 -0500 Subject: mexicah tiahui? Message-ID: Piyalli tocompalmeh, tocompalmeh. Nicpiya ce tlahtlaniliztli. I have been seeing Danza Azteca groups here (and in other parts) using the phrase "Mexicah tiahui." I confess my ignorance of all things Danza Azteca, and that when I see this phrase all I can think is "you are an aunt" (obviously not what they are intending) or tiahuih "we are content / have what is necessary" or maybe ahhuic "here and there, back and forth" (Karttunen). I am told that it means "Mexica people onward" but am wondering about how that all shakes out. Thanks for any clarifications you can offer. Kelly Kelly McDonough University of Minnesota - Twin Cities Department of Spanish & Portuguese Studies 612/624-5529 mcdo0030 at umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 15 13:03:03 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:03:03 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <065BBFBAA29A42128097FD9E4F967E53@KELLY> Message-ID: "We are going" plural subject pronoun ti- + the verb "yauh" -> tiyahuih Quoting Kelly McDonough : > Piyalli tocompalmeh, tocompalmeh. Nicpiya ce tlahtlaniliztli. I have been > seeing Danza Azteca groups here (and in other parts) using the phrase > "Mexicah tiahui." I confess my ignorance of all things Danza Azteca, and > that when I see this phrase all I can think is "you are an aunt" (obviously > not what they are intending) or tiahuih "we are content / have what is > necessary" or maybe ahhuic "here and there, back and forth" (Karttunen). I > am told that it means "Mexica people onward" but am wondering about how that > all shakes out. > > Thanks for any clarifications you can offer. > > Kelly > > > > Kelly McDonough > > University of Minnesota - Twin Cities > > Department of Spanish & Portuguese Studies > > 612/624-5529 > > mcdo0030 at umn.edu > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 15 14:07:08 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:07:08 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <20090715151522.19824fdt95oog8dm@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de> Message-ID: Quoting Henry Kammler : > ??????????????????????n?1i?????????/??????i???k>???????^r? > V??'????j'?/? ?>?(?????k&?????/???{~???y?b?/?y??,?W?????je{???X????nj???????u?????(????>jw~u??????{?? ?W?y????b??i?j{^? > .??j???????+??????????????zV?y????1??? ? ????_?j)b????j??Yb??jk"??!??????????f??)??? Henry Kammler's message is written in a character script my computer can't decipher, so I can't comment. Hopefully, the following is not redundant. A couple of additional ideas about "tiahui". It's a combination of two verbs: /ya:/ and /hui/, which exist independently, seeminly most often with directional prefixes. For example: anhualhuih 'you all come' Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 15 15:13:52 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:13:52 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <3d2f06780907150710l422375f8wf850323cba8a3e7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Tlaxtlahui, Kenneth, ihuan Henry. Yes, Andrews II calls "yahui" a modern dialect form that is "substandard," or something to that effect. And, yes, one would expect a "Ma" in Nahuatl if the verb is supposed to translate the Spanish imperative "Vamos!" michael Quoting Kenneth Thomas : > To (I hope!) clarify Henry's message: >> "We are going" >> >> plural subject pronoun ti- ?+ the verb "yauh" -> tiyahuih > > Exactly. This is probably one of the more common forms in modern > dialects. "Classical" Nahuatl commonly (?) has /tihuih/ "we are > going", maybe that's why it wasn't so readily recognizable. > > It's a good example of simplified Nahuatl that is used as an identity > token by concheros and danzantes, because with the alleged translation > "adelante!" you would rather expect an optative form in the sense > "vamos!" (/ma tihuiyah/ or related forms). > > Ma niw?ya! > Henry K > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: >> >> Quoting Henry Kammler : >> >> > ??????????????????????n? 1i?????????/? ????i???k>? ??????^r? >> > V??' ????j'?/???>?( ???? ?k&?????/???{~? >> ?y?b?/?y??,?W?????je{???X????nj?? ???? ?u??? ??( ???>jw~u??????{? >> ???W?y????b? ?i?j{^? >> > .??j???????+????????????? ?zV?y????1??? ? ?? ??_?j)b? ???j >> ??Yb??jk"??!??????????f??)??? >> >> Henry Kammler's message is written in a character script my computer >> can't decipher, so I can't comment. Hopefully, the following is not >> redundant. >> >> A couple of additional ideas about "tiahui". >> >> It's a combination of two verbs: /ya:/ and /hui/, which exist >> independently, seeminly most often with directional prefixes. >> >> For example: anhualhuih 'you all come' >> >> Michael >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From alex at wavegeneration.ca Wed Jul 15 15:01:45 2009 From: alex at wavegeneration.ca (Alex Saba) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:01:45 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl - Translation Project Message-ID: Hello to everyone on the list and pleasure to meet you! I work for a production company located in Montreal, Canada and we're currently looking to translate a script from English to Nahuatl and another from English to Quechua. We're looking at approximately 700 words for each language. The context is political and the final product will be fun, educational entertainment. If you're interested please send me a brief overview of your experience and if possible, a sample of previous work in those languages. I should mention we're also looking for native speakers with the following criteria: Nahuatl - Male, 20-50 Quechua - Male, 20-40 (Located in Montreal, Toronto, New-York or Los Angeles) If you have any questions, don't hesitate. The selected candidates will receive compensation for their work. Thanks in advance! Alex _____ Alex Saba Wave Generation Inc 55 Mont Royal West, Suite 970 Montr?al, Quebec H2T 2S6 Canada (Map) Tel: 514.289.9537 ext. 204 Fax: 514.380.5191 Visit us at www.wavegeneration.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wglogo.gif Type: image/gif Size: 8318 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Jul 15 18:59:22 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:59:22 -0400 Subject: Encoding Message-ID: Colleagues, With more sophisticated e-mail programs, there are now sophisticated encoding routines to provide a wide range of characters. Unfortunately many listserv programs and e-mail readers cannot handle these codes. Please send messages in ASCII Unicode for best results. -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 19:27:21 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:27:21 -0400 Subject: vamonos mexicanos Message-ID: No, Mario, those forms are ungrammatical Contrarily to Spanish *irse *Nahuatl /yaw/ is an intransitive verb and cannot take the object prefixes -te:ch- and -ame:ch-. As Dr Mccafferty mentioned it would often be introduced by the particle /ma:/ in the exhortative "let's" form and it would also as you take the optative plural suffix /-ka:n/. In Hueyapan Nahuatl the exhoratative of yoh /yaw/ is /ma:n tiyaka:n/ and is also used as a greeting corresponding to Spanish "vamonos" (vamonos/man tiyaka:n is used to greet someone who is walking). The honorific form is made with the transitive verb /wi:ka/ "to carry" and the exhortative would be /ma:n ximowikaka:n/ "vayense (R)" Magnus Pharao > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: > To: Michael McCafferty , Kenneth Thomas < > kthomas at alumni.williams.edu> > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:53:05 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] mexicah tiahui? > > Would it not be: > > Ma xitechyahuican > ?Vamonos! > > or > > Ma ximechyahuican > ?Vallense! > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Jul 17 14:07:05 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:07:05 -0400 Subject: Archives for encoded messages Message-ID: Colleagues, If you have not been able to read messages because of encoding problems, please consult the Nahuatl archives. All messages are housed there an in a format that can be read from most any web browser http://www.famsi.org/pipermail/nahuatl/ -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Tue Jul 21 16:37:05 2009 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:37:05 -0700 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <20090715111352.tzyh7ycyogkg8ok8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Andrews states: "There exist dialectal variants for the present indicative VNCs with plural-number subjects built on the stem (ya-hui) instead of (hui)?These are not, however, considered good usage" (p. 98). ? Almost all dialects of Nahuatl use a non-suppletive stem of a shape like yahui in the present (Una Canger has written on this). Such a stem also appears in colonial writings. It is ?classical? Nahuatl that is exceptional and probably innovative, while the ?modern dialects? may very well turn out to be more conservative. ? I think we need to be careful in using classical Nahuatl as the baseline for evaluating good or bad usage or grammar in other varieties of Nahuatl that have only been documented more recently. --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Michael McCafferty wrote: From: Michael McCafferty Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] mexicah tiahui? To: "Kenneth Thomas" Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 11:13 AM Tlaxtlahui, Kenneth, ihuan Henry. Yes, Andrews II calls "yahui" a modern dialect form that is "substandard," or something to that effect. And, yes, one would expect a "Ma" in Nahuatl if the verb is supposed to translate the Spanish imperative "Vamos!" michael Quoting Kenneth Thomas : > To (I hope!) clarify Henry's message: >> "We are going" >> >> plural subject pronoun ti- ?+ the verb "yauh" -> tiyahuih > > Exactly. This is probably one of the more common forms in modern > dialects. "Classical" Nahuatl commonly (?) has /tihuih/ "we are > going", maybe that's why it wasn't so readily recognizable. > > It's a good example of simplified Nahuatl that is used as an identity > token by concheros and danzantes, because with the alleged translation > "adelante!" you would rather expect an optative form in the sense > "vamos!" (/ma tihuiyah/ or related forms). > > Ma niw?ya! > Henry K > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: >> >> Quoting Henry Kammler : >> >> > ??????????????????????n? 1i?????????/? ????i???k>? ??????^r? >> > V??' ????j'?/???>?( ???? ?k&?????/???{~? >> ?y?b?/?y??,?W?????je{???X????nj?? ???? ?u??? ??( ???>jw~u??????{? >> ???W?y????b? ?i?j{^? >> > .??j???????+????????????? ?zV?y????1??? ? ?? ??_?j)b? ???j >> ??Yb??jk"??!??????????f??)??? >> >> Henry Kammler's message is written in a character script my computer >> can't decipher, so I can't comment. Hopefully, the following is not >> redundant. >> >> A couple of additional ideas about "tiahui". >> >> It's a combination of two verbs: /ya:/ and /hui/, which exist >> independently, seeminly most often with directional prefixes. >> >> For example: anhualhuih 'you all come' >> >> Michael >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jul 21 17:15:49 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:15:49 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <537760.61851.qm@web111504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting Michael Swanton : > > > > > Andrews > states: "There exist dialectal variants for the present indicative VNCs > with plural-number subjects built on the stem (ya-hui) instead of (hui)?These > are not, however, considered good usage" (p. 98). > > > > Almost all > dialects of Nahuatl use a non-suppletive stem of a shape like yahui in the > present (Una Canger has written on this). Such a stem also appears in > colonial > writings. It is ?classical? Nahuatl that is exceptional and probably > innovative, > while the ?modern dialects? may very well turn out to be more conservative. > > > > I think we > need to be careful in using classical Nahuatl as the baseline for evaluating > good or bad usage or grammar in other varieties of Nahuatl that have > only been > documented more recently. > > \ Michael: Talk to Andrews; don't talk to me. I don't speak for him. In this case, what I tried to do was let you know what I recalled concerning *his* point of view from reading his second book on grammar. :-) Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jul 21 18:13:31 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:13:31 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <20090721131549.gavz83g3k4os4ksk@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Michael: I meant to add that my viewpoint on the matter of yahui, and grammar in general, is that all native-speaker grammars are equally good. All best, Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > > Quoting Michael Swanton : > >> >> >> >> >> Andrews >> states: "There exist dialectal variants for the present indicative VNCs >> with plural-number subjects built on the stem (ya-hui) instead of >> (hui)?These >> are not, however, considered good usage" (p. 98). >> >> >> >> Almost all >> dialects of Nahuatl use a non-suppletive stem of a shape like yahui in the >> present (Una Canger has written on this). Such a stem also appears in >> colonial >> writings. It is ?classical? Nahuatl that is exceptional and probably >> innovative, >> while the ?modern dialects? may very well turn out to be more conservative. >> >> >> >> I think we >> need to be careful in using classical Nahuatl as the baseline for evaluating >> good or bad usage or grammar in other varieties of Nahuatl that have >> only been >> documented more recently. >> >> > \ > > Michael: > > Talk to Andrews; don't talk to me. I don't speak for him. In this case, > what I tried to do was let you know what I recalled concerning *his* > point of view from reading his second book on grammar. > > :-) > > Michael > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 22 15:25:07 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:25:07 -0400 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <82305472-09B7-4D69-9A88-187D6B6D9D2B@me.com> Message-ID: I don't think you understood my point, John. By "grammar" I didn't mean "grammar book," I meant "grammar". Saludos, Michael Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." : > Michael and listeros, > Then perhaps someone can recommend a good recently written (within > the last, say, 50 years) grammar of any variant of Nahuatl written by > a native speaker. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > > > On Jul 21, 2009, at 1:13 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> Michael: >> >> I meant to add that my viewpoint on the matter of yahui, and grammar in >> general, is that all native-speaker grammars are equally good. >> >> >> All best, >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Michael McCafferty : >> >>> >>> >>> Quoting Michael Swanton : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Andrews >>>> states: "There exist dialectal variants for the present indicative VNCs >>>> with plural-number subjects built on the stem (ya-hui) instead of >>>> (hui)?These >>>> are not, however, considered good usage" (p. 98). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Almost all >>>> dialects of Nahuatl use a non-suppletive stem of a shape like >>>> yahui in the >>>> present (Una Canger has written on this). Such a stem also appears in >>>> colonial >>>> writings. It is ?classical? Nahuatl that is exceptional and probably >>>> innovative, >>>> while the ?modern dialects? may very well turn out to be more >>>> conservative. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think we >>>> need to be careful in using classical Nahuatl as the baseline for >>>> evaluating >>>> good or bad usage or grammar in other varieties of Nahuatl that have >>>> only been >>>> documented more recently. >>>> >>>> >>> \ >>> >>> Michael: >>> >>> Talk to Andrews; don't talk to me. I don't speak for him. In this case, >>> what I tried to do was let you know what I recalled concerning *his* >>> point of view from reading his second book on grammar. >>> >>> :-) >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Jul 22 14:26:39 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:26:39 -0500 Subject: mexicah tiahui? In-Reply-To: <20090721141331.l0aoccqazcw88cgg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Michael and listeros, Then perhaps someone can recommend a good recently written (within the last, say, 50 years) grammar of any variant of Nahuatl written by a native speaker. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com On Jul 21, 2009, at 1:13 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Michael: > > I meant to add that my viewpoint on the matter of yahui, and grammar > in > general, is that all native-speaker grammars are equally good. > > > All best, > > Michael > > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> >> >> Quoting Michael Swanton : >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Andrews >>> states: "There exist dialectal variants for the present indicative >>> VNCs >>> with plural-number subjects built on the stem (ya-hui) instead of >>> (hui)?These >>> are not, however, considered good usage" (p. 98). >>> >>> >>> >>> Almost all >>> dialects of Nahuatl use a non-suppletive stem of a shape like >>> yahui in the >>> present (Una Canger has written on this). Such a stem also appears >>> in >>> colonial >>> writings. It is ?classical? Nahuatl that is exceptional and probably >>> innovative, >>> while the ?modern dialects? may very well turn out to be more >>> conservative. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think we >>> need to be careful in using classical Nahuatl as the baseline for >>> evaluating >>> good or bad usage or grammar in other varieties of Nahuatl that have >>> only been >>> documented more recently. >>> >>> >> \ >> >> Michael: >> >> Talk to Andrews; don't talk to me. I don't speak for him. In this >> case, >> what I tried to do was let you know what I recalled concerning *his* >> point of view from reading his second book on grammar. >> >> :-) >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Fri Jul 24 00:08:12 2009 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:08:12 -0700 Subject: Me:xi'co = moon navel, maguey navel, E.T.'s navel....?? Message-ID: Hi again, As if /2012, In Lakech, and Mexica Tiahui /had not burnt out our little grey cells....... The name Mexico has been interpreted by new Age types as "the place of the navel of the moon," "the place of the navel of the maguey" My question is, if the word is Me:xi'co (long vowel E, and glottal stop after the short vowel I), what would be the argument for or against these two interpretations? And if this is not correct, what would be? I understand that the Modern Nahuatl name for Mexico is: "Mexco." Would that have some linguistic root in the meaning of the word in classic times? 1. I argue that the "creators" of these two analysis of Mexico ignore vowel length and glottal stops.... Am I wrong? 2. If Huitzilopochtli was seen as a tribal/solar deity, and he had just "dismembered" his sister Coyolxauhqui (who some claim is the moon... but I think she is a terrestrial deity that symbolizes the "old guard" of Teotihuacan and the Toltecs... but I digress again) at Coatepec (that then becomes the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan), why would the name of his capital be related to the moon? 3. If the name means the navel of the maguey..... would it not be incongruous, since at that time the island of Mexico was a very wet and probably cold alpine area, not the best environment for an agave.....? 4. I understand that Me:xi'co means the place of the Me:xi'ca.... which means the "people of Mexi." is there a study which I can point to that shows this etymology? Mario, always ready to learn..... I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD www.mexicayotl.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Jul 24 01:46:33 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:46:33 -0500 Subject: Me:xi'co = moon navel, maguey navel, E.T.'s navel....?? In-Reply-To: <4A68FB6C.50704@cox.net> Message-ID: Mariotzin huan listeros: me:tz-tli + xi:c-tli + -co = me:tzxi:cco (en el ombligo de la luna) me-tl + xi:c-tli + -co= mexi:cco (en el ombligo del maguey) Neither of these resembles me:xihco (Mexico) The only thing we can assume is that is that the root of me:xihco is the unattested noun "me:xihtli". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (en EU) Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org On Jul 23, 2009, at 7:08 PM, micc2 wrote: > Hi again, > > As if 2012, In Lakech, and Mexica Tiahui had not burnt out our > little grey cells....... > > The name Mexico has been interpreted by new Age types as "the place > of the navel of the moon," "the place of the navel of the maguey" > > My question is, if the word is Me:xi'co (long vowel E, and glottal > stop after the short vowel I), what would be the argument for or > against these two interpretations? And if this is not correct, what > would be? > > I understand that the Modern Nahuatl name for Mexico is: "Mexco." > Would that have some linguistic root in the meaning of the word in > classic times? > I argue that the "creators" of these two analysis of Mexico ignore > vowel length and glottal stops.... Am I wrong? > If Huitzilopochtli was seen as a tribal/solar deity, and he had just > "dismembered" his sister Coyolxauhqui (who some claim is the > moon... but I think she is a terrestrial deity that symbolizes the > "old guard" of Teotihuacan and the Toltecs... but I digress again) > at Coatepec (that then becomes the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan), > why would the name of his capital be related to the moon? > If the name means the navel of the maguey..... would it not be > incongruous, since at that time the island of Mexico was a very wet > and probably cold alpine area, not the best environment for an > agave.....? > I understand that Me:xi'co means the place of the Me:xi'ca.... which > means the "people of Mexi." is there a study which I can point to > that shows this etymology? > > Mario, always ready to learn..... > > I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: > > "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz > > > Mario E. Aguilar, PhD > www.mexicayotl.net > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Jul 24 01:54:50 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:54:50 -0500 Subject: One more: teotihuacan Message-ID: Listeros, Here's a proposed morphology for Teotihuacan that we worked on in class today. We're going to assume that we're working with a "t" variant. teo-t, "dios, sagrado" ti-t, "fire" huah, "due?o(s) de..." ca, "ligatura para sustantives agentivos" n, "sufijo locativo" teotihuahcan, "lugar de los due?os del fuego sagrado" John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (en EU) Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 13:44:16 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:44:16 -0500 Subject: teotihuacan etymology Message-ID: Dear. Dr. Sullivan The proposed analysis of Teotihuacan seems pretty far stretched. Firstly why assume that it is from a t dialect - teotihuacan is well within the central dialect area where tl would be expected, (although of course it might not always have been) - and use of the name itself is attested only in a -tl dialect, classical Nahuatl. Secondly the etymology requires i not just a t-dialect but also an i-dialect since central dialects tend to have /tle/ as the root for fire. Thirdly splitting up the locative suffix /ka:n/ into an agentive and a -n locative suffix seems completely unwarranted - to my knowledge no grammarian has made this analysis before, all seeing -/ka:n/ and /ya:n/ as single morphemes. I would propose that a much better analysis would be: teo - divine, god, holy, mystic ti - causative suffix (the one used on nouns to form a denominal verb meaning to become as in /tla:kati/ "be born") hua- passive/non-specific agent suffix can - locative suffix "place where someone becomes (a) god" Magnus Pharao Hansen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Jul 24 21:27:29 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:27:29 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Aztlan] J. Paul Getty Aztec Exhibit coming] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [Aztlan] J. Paul Getty Aztec Exhibit coming From: "michael ruggeri" Date: Fri, July 24, 2009 11:58 am To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Listeros, I will re-print this announcement from Art Daily in full since it is an exhibit announcement. Mike Ruggeri LOS ANGELES, CA.- The J. Paul Getty Museum announces "The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire," an exhibition showcasing masterworks of Aztec sculpture?among them recent archaeological discoveries?which will be juxtaposed with 16th- to 18th-century illustrations that reflect European interpretations of Aztec culture. The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire, on view at the Getty Villa from March 25 through July 5, 2010, represents the Getty Villa's first display of antiquities from outside the ancient Mediterranean, and is scheduled to coincide with Los Angeles celebrations of the bicentennial of Mexico?s independence and the centennial of the Mexican revolution. The exhibition traces European efforts to understand the New World by viewing it through the lens of its own classical past. Following Hern?n Cort?s's conquest of the great city of Tenochtitlan in 1520, Europeans confronted a culture that was profoundly unfamiliar. When the Franciscan missionary Bernardino de Sahag?n compiled a history of Aztec culture up to the conquest, known as the Florentine Codex, he created a parallel pantheon, identifying the principal Aztec deities with their Roman counterparts: Huitzilopochtli is named ?otro Hercules? (another Hercules) while Tezcatlipoca was likened to Jupiter, and so on. In this way, Sahag?n and his local informants drew upon Graeco-Roman paradigms to assist Europeans in understanding Aztec religious beliefs. These early encounters with the civilizations of the Americas coincided with Renaissance Europe?s rediscovery of its own classical past. Europeans were fascinated with the Aztecs and other cultures of the New World. Artifacts from the Americas made their way back to European private collections, where they also inspired festivals and pageants, including performances of classical theater staged in New World settings. In the 18th century, scholars of comparative religion such as Bernard Picart compared Quetzalcoatl and Mercury, rejecting the demonization of what were previously seen as pagan deities. ?Although Graeco-Roman and Aztec cultures are distinct historical phenomena, and developed in isolation from one another, Europeans applied familiar frames of reference to a New World that was largely unfathomable,? explains J. Paul Getty Museum antiquities curator Claire Lyons. ?Bringing these monumental cult statues, reliefs, and votive artifacts to Los Angeles and showing them in the Mediterranean setting of the Getty Villa offers an incredible chance to explore a little known episode: the dialogue between Aztec culture and classical antiquity that was sparked in the age of exploration, carried forward during the Enlightenment, and which continues to be informative in the present.? The Aztec monuments on view in The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire both captivate and frighten, with sun gods bristling with claws and fangs, and undulating rattlesnakes bursting forth from the neck of a decapitated earth goddess. Soon after being discovered, they were reburied as creations of the devil, and only later resurrected as masterpieces comparable to the greatest sculptural traditions. These remarkable artworks never fail to enthrall those who see them. After five centuries they continue to be invoked as political symbols, eternal emblems of Mexican national heritage. But what did these monoliths mean as part of the sacred architecture and cults of the gods celebrated in Mexico?s ancient capital of Tenochtitlan? More answers are emerging after a century of archaeological research, together with the recognition that the fearsome power of an empire, embodied in the Aztec gods, was not so very different from that of other ancient civilizations of the Old World. Drawing primarily on the collections of the Museo Nacional de Antropolog?a and the Museo del Templo Mayor in Mexico City, the exhibition will also feature the Sahag?n?s Florentine Codex from the Biblioteca Medicea Laurenziana in Florence, and 16th to 18th-century works relating to Mexico from the Getty Research Institute?s Special Collections. ?European response to pre-Columbian and colonial-era Latin America has long been a focus of collecting for the Getty Research Institute,? says Lyons. ?Its rich holdings on Mexico show how remarkable Aztec objects were 'translated' by Europeans.? Adds J. Paul Getty Museum director Michael Brand: ?I have been keen to broaden the perspective of the Getty Villa. Bringing some of Mexico's greatest works of Aztec art to the Villa for the first time will enable visitors and scholars alike to reflect on both cultures in a richer way. We are very grateful to our Mexican and Italian colleagues for their generous loans that make this unique exhibition possible.? The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire is curated by Claire L. Lyons, curator of antiquities, J. Paul Getty Museum, and John M. D. Pohl, research associate, Cotsen Institute of Archaeology, UCLA. Accompanying the installation is an illustrated companion volume, The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire, authored by John Pohl, which describes Aztec culture and cosmology, and the reciprocal consequences of European contact with New Spain. In conjunction with the exhibition, a two-day conference will be convened at the Getty Villa from April 29-May 1, 2010. International scholars will address historical analogies drawn between the Aztecs and ancient Rome, the production of Sahag?n's Florentine Codex, and the implications of comparative approaches to the archaeology of empires. In addition to the conference, a full schedule of public programs will be developed, including gallery tours, family programs, adult education courses, point-of-view talks, and curatorial lectures. A brochure and audio guide will be available to visitors, and a permanent exhibition website will extend access to international audiences. In collaboration with the California Institute of the Arts, a theatrical performance based on Aztec texts in Nahuatl, the poem "Sun Stone" (1957) by Octavio Paz, and Antonin Artaud's 1938 "The Theater of Cruelty (Second Manifesto)" is currently in development. The Aztec Pantheon and the Art of Empire is part of Los Angeles? celebration of the bicentennial of Mexico?s independence and the centennial of the Mexican revolution. Several other cultural institutions will also be developing exhibitions and programming as part of a city-wide effort. Art Daily URL; http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new2251 Getty Museum URL; http://www.getty.edu/visit/exhibitions/future.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://tinyurl.com/c9mlao _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Jul 24 22:01:19 2009 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:01:19 -0400 Subject: teotihuacan etymology Message-ID: Dear Magnus, I thought you scored some well reasoned points! While I don't disagree with anything you said, you reminded me of an academic scene that is probably re-played from time to time. You said that no grammarian has made this analysis before and it reminded me of a situation that occurred when I was in my third year of graduate school. My phonology professor was explaining the phonetic facts about the Portuguese vowel system and then finished up by saying what the phonological inferences were. Since my head was buzzing with generative ideas, I volunteered that there was another way to look at it. He looked over his glasses and said, "What might that be?" When I had said my piece, he said, "Joe, that's very imaginative, but I don't think you will find any (I think he included the word "self-respecting") linguist that will say that. Quite by accident, two days later I read an article by Kenneth Pike (highly respected by most linguists) in which he described the Portuguese vowel system and its processes in a way that suggested that he had overheard my classroom suggestion. Which brings me to back to the fact that while I agree with you that -ca:n and -ya:n are the preferable analysis for Nahuatl, Richard Andrews actually has proposed the other solution. In Lesson 46 of his Revised Edition, he says that the "ca:" and "ya" are elements which appear elsewhere in the verb system and that the locative morpheme is "n". I would suggest that while this may possibly (some people would say "probably") true historically, when we do our morphological analysis judgments, we do include historical development in the court record. It would be interesting to see if someone could make a reasoned case for Andrews' point of view. Actually, I can guess what a few of their points might be. A minor fussy point that I would bring up: while you make it clear that "-ti" results in the formation of a denominal verb, I wouldn't call it a "causative suffix". There is a set of suffixes that are added to verbs that increase their transitivity by "1" and there is another suffixes that are added to nouns that result in verbs. I think that it would be better to have separate grammatical labels for those suffixes. Tottazqueh, Joe Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > Dear. Dr. Sullivan > > The proposed analysis of Teotihuacan seems pretty far stretched. Firstly why > assume that it is from a t dialect - teotihuacan is well within the central > dialect area where tl would be expected, (although of course it might not > always have been) - and use of the name itself is attested only in a -tl > dialect, classical Nahuatl. Secondly the etymology requires i not just a > t-dialect but also an i-dialect since central dialects tend to have /tle/ as > the root for fire. Thirdly splitting up the locative suffix /ka:n/ into an > agentive and a -n locative suffix seems completely unwarranted - to my > knowledge no grammarian has made this analysis before, all seeing -/ka:n/ > and /ya:n/ as single morphemes. I would propose that a much better analysis > would be: > > teo - divine, god, holy, mystic > ti - causative suffix (the one used on nouns to form a denominal verb > meaning to become as in /tla:kati/ "be born") > hua- passive/non-specific agent suffix > can - locative suffix > > "place where someone becomes (a) god" > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Fri Jul 24 22:05:00 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 00:05:00 +0200 Subject: Me:xi'co : alternative etymologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, I was wondering how long it would take for this topic to surface! Here are some observations, for what they're worth: First, the etymology that derives Me:xi'co from 'moon' and 'navel' is worth consideration despite the apparent rough fit. It is true that 'At the Navel of the Moon' should be Me:tz-xic-co, which is more complex than the attested name. However, we should keep in mind that place names, like names in general (incl. attested Nahuatl names), are subject to simplification, reanalysis and corruption, and change at different rates from simple words. Furthermore, a form *Me:x-xic-co may indeed underlie Me:xi'co. On the one hand, we have enough parallels in Nahuatl for assimilation and for underrepresentation of the resulting geminate consonant: Cf. the name Te:cuichpotzin (lit. 'the lord's girl' for the daughter of Motecuhzoma II), which represents te:cuh- 'lord' + ichpo:ch- 'maiden' + -tzin (rev.), where stands for from - This led to the extrapolated form Tecuichpo on the assumption that the following in the reverential form represents a single affricate. On the other hand, a dissimilation of the stop cluster to <'c> would account for the short vowel in the second syllable of the capital's name. There is clear evidence for an indigenous analysis of Me:xi'co as 'At the Navel (and thus also: 'In the Middle) of the Moon'. First, the city lies within Lake Metztliapan ('On the Waters of the Moon'). Secondly, as Soustelle mentions (by the way, before Gutierre Tibon) in his famous study of Aztec civilization, the Otomi name for the Aztec capital is Anbondo Amadetz?n?, where bondo refers to the opuntia cactus of Tenochtitlan fame but, more interestingly, amadetz?n? is rendered 'in the middle of the moon'. And now for something completely different -- a place name derived from a personal name. Not much work has been done on this category of place names in Nahuatl. In fact, I am not aware of a single study. But there are a number of toponyms derived from the names of gods and eponymous ancestors, and even of other prominent figures, legendary and historical. Huitzilopochco (of Churubusco fame) is one such example, even if one could take it as an elliptical form for 'At (the Temple of) Huitzilopochtli'. We also have Copilco, named after an Aztec leader from the time of the foundation of Tenochtitlan (apparently not the same Copil that gave the Aztecs hell on their way there). Given such examples, it is neither impossible nor even unlikely that Me:xi'co represents Me:xi' (if the name rendered for the ancestral leader linked to Huitzilopochtli is the same) + the locative suffix -co. Thus, the place name might mean 'At (the Place of) Mexi'. Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Jul 24 23:23:27 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:23:27 -0500 Subject: teotihuacan etymology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, The reason why the -ca- of -can is split off is that with few exceptions (caxcan, for example), , -can is only sufixed to agentive nouns in the formation of place names. You propose that the root of teotihuacan is -teotihua- and that the -hua- is a passive/impersonal suffix (in this case, impersonal, because teoti is intransitive). Can you give any other examples of place names formed on impersonal verbs? John On Jul 24, 2009, at 8:44 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Dear. Dr. Sullivan > > The proposed analysis of Teotihuacan seems pretty far stretched. > Firstly why assume that it is from a t dialect - teotihuacan is well > within the central dialect area where tl would be expected, > (although of course it might not always have been) - and use of the > name itself is attested only in a -tl dialect, classical Nahuatl. > Secondly the etymology requires i not just a t-dialect but also an i- > dialect since central dialects tend to have /tle/ as the root for > fire. Thirdly splitting up the locative suffix /ka:n/ into an > agentive and a -n locative suffix seems completely unwarranted - to > my knowledge no grammarian has made this analysis before, all seeing > -/ka:n/ and /ya:n/ as single morphemes. I would propose that a much > better analysis would be: > > teo - divine, god, holy, mystic > ti - causative suffix (the one used on nouns to form a denominal > verb meaning to become as in /tla:kati/ "be born") > hua- passive/non-specific agent suffix > can - locative suffix > > "place where someone becomes (a) god" > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sat Jul 25 04:18:56 2009 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 04:18:56 +0000 Subject: Me:xi'co = moon navel, maguey navel, E.T.'s navel....?? Message-ID: An etymology that I have seen is "'in the middle of the moon', which was short for 'in the middle of the Lake of the Moon'". Citlalyani --- On Fri, 24/7/09, micc2 wrote: > From: micc2 > The name Mexico has been interpreted by new Age types as "the place of the navel of > the moon,"? "the place of the navel of the maguey" ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Jul 25 14:59:30 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:59:30 -0500 Subject: morphology and sacred landscape Message-ID: Listeros, I would like to explain how I think Nahua place names work. There have been many poorly written compilations of Nahua place names. Poor, for two reasons. First, because their authors generally do not have a good understanding of Nahua morphology. And second, because while they provide translations of the noun (simple or agentive) or verb (Magnus, you are absolutely right. What I meant to say is that passive/ impersonal verbs are not linked to -can) to which the relational ending is suffixed, they do not explain WHY these nouns and verbs were chosen in the first place. I believe that Nahua place names allude directly to some aspect of Mesoamerican sacred landscape, in other words, to some aspect of the migration process from Aztlan to Chicomoztoc to Colhuahcan. This may include physical aspects of the landscape, animals, plants, actions and deities. A well written work on Nahua place names will explain the morphology of each name, as well as how it ties into the universe of sacred landscape. This is something I plan to do in the future with Mar?a Elena Bernal Garc?a and Angel Garc?a Zambrano from the Universidad Aut?noma del Estado de Morelos. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sat Jul 25 16:48:34 2009 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:48:34 +0000 Subject: morphology and sacred landscape Message-ID: Could some merely refer to ordinary non-religious landscape features? For example, Chapultepec (= Chapoltepe_c) = "at the grasshopper hill" maybe merely when the first Aztec-speakers came there there were many noisy grasshoppers there, or their first crops there were much damaged by grasshoppers. Citlalyani --- On Sat, 25/7/09, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: ... I believe that Nahua place names allude directly to some aspect of Mesoamerican sacred landscape, in other words, to some aspect of the migration process from Aztlan to Chicomoztoc to Colhuahcan. This may include physical aspects of the landscape, animals, plants, actions and deities. ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Jul 25 17:48:57 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:48:57 -0500 Subject: Morphology and sacred landscapes Message-ID: It's great to get back from the ICA in Mexico City (where I had the pleasure to meet some Nahuat-l pen pals face to face for the first time) and find the list buzzing with very interesting messages. John: I agree with much of what you say in the message reproduced below. I would just caution you to not get too attached to the hypothesis that you imply will guide your study of toponyms in Morelos, namely your belief "that Nahua place names allude directly to some aspect of Mesoamerican sacred landscape, in other words, to some aspect of the migration process from Aztlan to Chicomoztoc to Colhuahcan." It's usually best to have a few alternative hypotheses on the table and to look for the weaknesses, more that the strengths, of each hypothesis. The Aztec migration story is just one native historical tradition (actually a set of overlapping historical traditions), although it's one of the better documented stories. The Nahua of central Mexico, whose language clearly originated in western Mexico, inserted themselves in rather late (i.e. post-Teotihuacan) times into a sacred landscape that developed over several millenia among the original Otomanguean-speakers (including the Otopamean family), whose roots in this region go back to the earliest agricultural villages of the Protoneolithic period (ca. 5000-2500 d.C.). Central Mexican toponyms, as I pointed out in my last post, are usually calques, or semantic loans in which meaning is loaned without the sounds associated with that meaning in the source language. This is why many (although certainly not all) toponymical signs in the central Mexican system of pictorial writing can be read in different languages; they are semasiograms, communicating meaning without necessarily being associated with the morphemes of a given language. Of course this system also permits glottographic writing (both logographic and phonographic) in any of the participating tongues, where homophonic or cuasi-homophonic plays on words or morphemes are exploited, as in rebus writing. The percentage of glottograms in any given text varies through time and space, from practically nothing (e.g. the five codices of the Borgia group) to very abundant (e.g. post-Conquest codices from the Texcoco region). It's hard to reconstruct the pre-Nahua linguistic landscape of the Valley of Morelos, since the Nahuas in this region form part of a linguistic band that slices the Otomanguean territory in two, with the Otopameans to the north (specifically the Otomi, Mazahua, Matlatzinca, and Ocuiltec) and the Mixtecans and Popolocans to the south. Thus a network of interrelated languages derived from a common, ancestral tongue spoken thousands of years earlier (Proto-Otomanguean) was severed, at least in a spatial sense, when the Nahuas appeared on the scene. Given this situation, it would probably be useful to search these neighboring languages for toponyms refering to places in Morelos. You're quite right about the importance of going beyond purely linguistic analyses of toponyms if we want to arrive at a deeper understanding of their significance. Saludos, David ******************************** Listeros, I would like to explain how I think Nahua place names work. There have been many poorly written compilations of Nahua place names. Poor, for two reasons. First, because their authors generally do not have a good understanding of Nahua morphology. And second, because while they provide translations of the noun (simple or agentive) or verb (Magnus, you are absolutely right. What I meant to say is that passive/impersonal verbs are not linked to -can) to which the relational ending is suffixed, they do not explain WHY these nouns and verbs were chosen in the first place. I believe that Nahua place names allude directly to some aspect of Mesoamerican sacred landscape, in other words, to some aspect of the migration process from Aztlan to Chicomoztoc to Colhuahcan. This may include physical aspects of the landscape, animals, plants, actions and deities. A well written work on Nahua place names will explain the morphology of each name, as well as how it ties into the universe of sacred landscape. This is something I plan to do in the future with Mar?a Elena Bernal Garc?a and Angel Garc?a Zambrano from the Universidad Aut?noma del Estado de Morelos. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Jul 25 18:00:09 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:00:09 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" Message-ID: [My message came back to me with very alien looking characters, for some reason. Here it goes again; I hope it comes through this time.] Mariotzin: Regarding the etymology of Mexico, I threw in my two cents worth a couple of years ago. I used this toponym as an example in the chapter on phonology in a text written to teach Nahuatl to Spanish translation to history students. I don't mean to disqualify other attempts to understand the etymology of this word, but it's the best I've been able to come up with so far. I'll just copy and paste it here, simplifying the spelling conventions (using the Andrews/Karttunen system, with colons instead of macrons to mark the long vowels; saltillos are represented with the letter 'h'). When I write 'c-qu', of course I'm just referring to the phoneme /k/, which can be written 'c' or 'qu' in this system; 'qu' is used when the vowel that follows is either 'e' or 'i', following Spanish orthographic conventions. At the end are the references. The similarity of meaning in the Otomi toponym (noticed long ago by Jacques Soustelle) is significant. Most toponyms in central Mexico are calques: meanings were translated from one language to another, regardless of phonological form. Thus the study of toponyms from a plurilinguistic perspective sheds much badly needed light on the meanings behind the place names, and can tips the scales in favor of one interpretation or another. Of course, we'll never really know. Even if a 16th century native speaker explains a toponym's meaning to us in a text, there's always the possibility that his interpretation is just a folk etymology. *************************************** 3.7.3. Disimilaci?n En adici?n al fen?meno de la asimilaci?n regresiva, puede haber disimilaci?n regresiva. En estos casos dos consonantes id?nticas entran en contacto, y la primera cambia para distinguirse de la segunda: ? |c-qu| + |c-qu| > |hc-hqu|.258 Un buen ejemplo de este proceso es el nombre de la ciudad que dominaba el escenario pol?tico del centro de M?xico durante el ?ltimo siglo de la ?poca Prehisp?nica: ? Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)).259 La disimilaci?n regresiva es opcional en n?huatl; ya hemos visto que en algunos casos las consonantes dobles simplemente se alargan, por lo que el top?nimo anterior podr?a expresarse tambi?n como Me:xxi:cco. En la ?poca Novohispana normalmente no se representaban los saltillos ni las consonantes largas, escribiendo simplemente Mexico. ------------------------------------------------------------- 258 Andrews, 2003a: 35. 259 El top?nimo Me:xxihco (o Me:xxicco, sin la asimilaci?n opcional cc > hc) significa ?en (-co) el ombligo (xi:ctli) de la Luna (me:tztli)?. Esta derivaci?n, si bien es pol?mica, se apoya en la gram?tica del n?huatl de Rinc?n (1998: 50r y sin p. [libro 4, cap?tulo 1; Vocabulario breve: ?Mexicco?]), y en el hecho de que el top?nimo otom? equivalente, en el C?dice de Huichapan, expresa un significado similar: Amadets?n?, ?en medio de la Luna? (Wright, 2005a: II, 338 [ap?ndice VIII, inciso B, no. 17]). *************************************** Source of this modified quote: Wright Carr, David Charles, Lectura del n?huatl, fundamentos para la traducci?n de los textos en n?huatl del periodo Novohispano Temprano, M?xico, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 2007, p. 71. Sources cites in the footnotes: Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003. Rinc?n, Antonio del, ?Arte mexicana?, facs?mil de la ed. de 1595, en Obras cl?sicas sobre la lengua n?huatl, ed. digital, Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de Le?n-Portilla, compiladora, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Wright Carr, David Charles, Los otom?es: cultura, lengua y escritura, tesis, 2 vols., Zamora, Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales, El Colegio de Michoac?n, 2005. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 26 00:00:05 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:00:05 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <001601ca0d51$c03f33c0$40bd9b40$@net.mx> Message-ID: The assimilation of the affricate written /tz/ to the fricative written /x/ in the presumed etymology of /me:xihko/ as /me:tzli/ + /xi:ctli/ is a given. That's just nuts-and-bolts Nahuatl phonetics. However, one cannot simply say that the long /i:/ of /xi:ctli/ goes to short /i/ in /me:xihco/. That's a leap to the Moon itself. What is the basis for this vowel shortening? This is not expected. Moreover, /xi:ctli/ doesn't have a glottal stop, written /h/, as we see in /me:xihco/. Where did the glottal stop come from? The "Moon's Navel Place" is an enticing etymology, but more insights are needed to explain the messy phonology. Michael Quoting David Wright : > [My message came back to me with very alien looking characters, for some > reason. Here it goes again; I hope it comes through this time.] > > Mariotzin: > > Regarding the etymology of Mexico, I threw in my two cents worth a couple of > years ago. I used this toponym as an example in the chapter on phonology in > a text written to teach Nahuatl to Spanish translation to history students. > I don't mean to disqualify other attempts to understand the etymology of > this word, but it's the best I've been able to come up with so far. I'll > just copy and paste it here, simplifying the spelling conventions (using the > Andrews/Karttunen system, with colons instead of macrons to mark the long > vowels; saltillos are represented with the letter 'h'). When I write 'c-qu', > of course I'm just referring to the phoneme /k/, which can be written 'c' or > 'qu' in this system; 'qu' is used when the vowel that follows is either 'e' > or 'i', following Spanish orthographic conventions. At the end are the > references. > > The similarity of meaning in the Otomi toponym (noticed long ago by Jacques > Soustelle) is significant. Most toponyms in central Mexico are calques: > meanings were translated from one language to another, regardless of > phonological form. Thus the study of toponyms from a plurilinguistic > perspective sheds much badly needed light on the meanings behind the place > names, and can tips the scales in favor of one interpretation or another. Of > course, we'll never really know. Even if a 16th century native speaker > explains a toponym's meaning to us in a text, there's always the possibility > that his interpretation is just a folk etymology. > > *************************************** > 3.7.3. Disimilaci?n > > En adici?n al fen?meno de la asimilaci?n regresiva, puede haber disimilaci?n > regresiva. En estos casos dos consonantes id?nticas entran en contacto, y la > primera cambia para distinguirse de la segunda: > > ? |c-qu| + |c-qu| > |hc-hqu|.258 > > Un buen ejemplo de este proceso es el nombre de la ciudad que > dominaba el escenario pol?tico del centro de M?xico durante el ?ltimo siglo > de la ?poca Prehisp?nica: > > ? Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) > + co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)).259 > > La disimilaci?n regresiva es opcional en n?huatl; ya hemos visto que > en algunos casos las consonantes dobles simplemente se alargan, por lo que > el top?nimo anterior podr?a expresarse tambi?n como Me:xxi:cco. En la ?poca > Novohispana normalmente no se representaban los saltillos ni las consonantes > largas, escribiendo simplemente Mexico. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > 258 Andrews, 2003a: 35. > 259 El top?nimo Me:xxihco (o Me:xxicco, sin la asimilaci?n opcional cc > hc) > significa ?en (-co) el ombligo (xi:ctli) de la Luna (me:tztli)?. Esta > derivaci?n, si bien es pol?mica, se apoya en la gram?tica del n?huatl de > Rinc?n (1998: 50r y sin p. [libro 4, cap?tulo 1; Vocabulario breve: > ?Mexicco?]), y en el hecho de que el top?nimo otom? equivalente, en el > C?dice de Huichapan, expresa un significado similar: Amadets?n?, ?en medio > de la Luna? (Wright, 2005a: II, 338 [ap?ndice VIII, inciso B, no. 17]). > > *************************************** > Source of this modified quote: > > Wright Carr, David Charles, Lectura del n?huatl, fundamentos para la > traducci?n de los textos en n?huatl del periodo Novohispano Temprano, > M?xico, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 2007, p. 71. > > Sources cites in the footnotes: > > Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition, > Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003. > > Rinc?n, Antonio del, ?Arte mexicana?, facs?mil de la ed. de 1595, en Obras > cl?sicas sobre la lengua n?huatl, ed. digital, Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de > Le?n-Portilla, compiladora, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre > Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. > > Wright Carr, David Charles, Los otom?es: cultura, lengua y escritura, tesis, > 2 vols., Zamora, Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales, El Colegio de Michoac?n, > 2005. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jul 26 01:13:24 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:13:24 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <20090725200005.5i8pf6mwgs08w048@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Well, Michael, all we have to do is get all our morphophonological nuts and bolts together, put them out in the moonlight, and the phonology doesn't look so messy. The glottal stop comes from the regressive dissimilation that is described in my post: two /k/ segments come together and the first one becomes /?/ (that's a glottal stop, not a question mark). That's what I meant by "(c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)." It looks cleaner in IPA: (/k/ + /k/ > /?k/). The first /k/ is the last segment of the root morpheme of the noun xi:c(tli), and the second /k/ is the first segment of the locative suffix -co. So far so good? The next step is to shorten the /i:/, since a long vowel before a glottal stop in Nahuatl shortens. That's what I meant by "(i: > i)". The latter reduction in vowel length is not only expected but required. (On both regressive dissimilation and vowel-length reduction before a glottal stop, see Andrews, 2003: 25, 29, 35.) Thus, Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)). This may look messy, but it's really not, it's just a bit complicated, due to the chain reaction of (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu) making (i: > i) necessary. Can you see it now? I'm using a shorthand loosely based on algebraic signs, hoping they'll be comprehensible to most readers. The sign > is like a little arrow, indicating the result of the morphophonemic processes that distort the boundaries of the morphemes (it doesn't mean "greater than" here). Since the regressive assimilation is optional, the following alternative is also possible (as I pointed out in one of the footnotes in my post, although I see now I forgot to mark the vowel length in the /i:/ segment): Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). This form looks a lot cleaner, since there is only one segment change (tz + x > xx) instead of three. Thanks for making me look hard at this, Mike. You helped me catch the error in vowel length in the latter example. I've made the correction in the manuscript for the forthcoming (someday, I hope) second edition of my book. By the way, if anybody out there has a copy of the first edition without the "Fe de erratas," please write to me and I'll send it to you by e-mail. Between the author, the editor and the designer we managed to let a lot of little bugs slip through the filters. Peace, David -----Mesaje original----- De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] Enviado el: s?bado, 25 de julio de 2009 07:00 p.m. Para: David Wright CC: Nahuat-l (messages) Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" The assimilation of the affricate written /tz/ to the fricative written /x/ in the presumed etymology of /me:xihko/ as /me:tzli/ + /xi:ctli/ is a given. That's just nuts-and-bolts Nahuatl phonetics. However, one cannot simply say that the long /i:/ of /xi:ctli/ goes to short /i/ in /me:xihco/. That's a leap to the Moon itself. What is the basis for this vowel shortening? This is not expected. Moreover, /xi:ctli/ doesn't have a glottal stop, written /h/, as we see in /me:xihco/. Where did the glottal stop come from? The "Moon's Navel Place" is an enticing etymology, but more insights are needed to explain the messy phonology. Michael Quoting David Wright : > [My message came back to me with very alien looking characters, for some > reason. Here it goes again; I hope it comes through this time.] > > Mariotzin: > > Regarding the etymology of Mexico, I threw in my two cents worth a couple of > years ago. I used this toponym as an example in the chapter on phonology in > a text written to teach Nahuatl to Spanish translation to history students. > I don't mean to disqualify other attempts to understand the etymology of > this word, but it's the best I've been able to come up with so far. I'll > just copy and paste it here, simplifying the spelling conventions (using the > Andrews/Karttunen system, with colons instead of macrons to mark the long > vowels; saltillos are represented with the letter 'h'). When I write 'c-qu', > of course I'm just referring to the phoneme /k/, which can be written 'c' or > 'qu' in this system; 'qu' is used when the vowel that follows is either 'e' > or 'i', following Spanish orthographic conventions. At the end are the > references. > > The similarity of meaning in the Otomi toponym (noticed long ago by Jacques > Soustelle) is significant. Most toponyms in central Mexico are calques: > meanings were translated from one language to another, regardless of > phonological form. Thus the study of toponyms from a plurilinguistic > perspective sheds much badly needed light on the meanings behind the place > names, and can tips the scales in favor of one interpretation or another. Of > course, we'll never really know. Even if a 16th century native speaker > explains a toponym's meaning to us in a text, there's always the possibility > that his interpretation is just a folk etymology. > > *************************************** > 3.7.3. Disimilaci?n > > En adici?n al fen?meno de la asimilaci?n regresiva, puede haber disimilaci?n > regresiva. En estos casos dos consonantes id?nticas entran en contacto, y la > primera cambia para distinguirse de la segunda: > > ? |c-qu| + |c-qu| > |hc-hqu|.258 > > Un buen ejemplo de este proceso es el nombre de la ciudad que > dominaba el escenario pol?tico del centro de M?xico durante el ?ltimo siglo > de la ?poca Prehisp?nica: > > ? Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) > + co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)).259 > > La disimilaci?n regresiva es opcional en n?huatl; ya hemos visto que > en algunos casos las consonantes dobles simplemente se alargan, por lo que > el top?nimo anterior podr?a expresarse tambi?n como Me:xxi:cco. En la ?poca > Novohispana normalmente no se representaban los saltillos ni las consonantes > largas, escribiendo simplemente Mexico. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > 258 Andrews, 2003a: 35. > 259 El top?nimo Me:xxihco (o Me:xxicco, sin la asimilaci?n opcional cc > hc) > significa ?en (-co) el ombligo (xi:ctli) de la Luna (me:tztli)?. Esta > derivaci?n, si bien es pol?mica, se apoya en la gram?tica del n?huatl de > Rinc?n (1998: 50r y sin p. [libro 4, cap?tulo 1; Vocabulario breve: > ?Mexicco?]), y en el hecho de que el top?nimo otom? equivalente, en el > C?dice de Huichapan, expresa un significado similar: Amadets?n?, ?en medio > de la Luna? (Wright, 2005a: II, 338 [ap?ndice VIII, inciso B, no. 17]). > > *************************************** > Source of this modified quote: > > Wright Carr, David Charles, Lectura del n?huatl, fundamentos para la > traducci?n de los textos en n?huatl del periodo Novohispano Temprano, > M?xico, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 2007, p. 71. > > Sources cites in the footnotes: > > Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition, > Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003. > > Rinc?n, Antonio del, ?Arte mexicana?, facs?mil de la ed. de 1595, en Obras > cl?sicas sobre la lengua n?huatl, ed. digital, Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de > Le?n-Portilla, compiladora, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre > Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. > > Wright Carr, David Charles, Los otom?es: cultura, lengua y escritura, tesis, > 2 vols., Zamora, Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales, El Colegio de Michoac?n, > 2005. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Jul 25 17:53:24 2009 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:53:24 -0500 Subject: morphology and sacred landscape In-Reply-To: <364773.35234.qm@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anthony, Its possible that the mexica just happened to see an eagle perched on a cactus, but since nahua spirituality is blatantly tied to nature, I would like to see if grasshopper hill refers to more than just the sum of it's components. John Sent from my iPhone On 25/07/2009, at 11:48, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > Could some merely refer to ordinary non-religious landscape > features? For example, Chapultepec (= Chapoltepe_c) = "at the > grasshopper hill" maybe merely when the first Aztec-speakers came > there there were many noisy grasshoppers there, or their first crops > there were much damaged by grasshoppers. > > Citlalyani > > --- On Sat, 25/7/09, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > ... I believe that Nahua place names allude directly to some aspect > of Mesoamerican sacred landscape, in other words, to some aspect of > the migration process from Aztlan to Chicomoztoc to Colhuahcan. This > may include physical aspects of the landscape, animals, plants, > actions and deities. ... > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 02:01:32 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 21:01:32 -0500 Subject: Nahua toponyms Message-ID: Dr. Sullivan: before reading your response I realized the weakness of my proposed translation of teotihuacan: you are right /ka:n/ is used for placenames derived form nominals! It should be teotihuaya:n for my etymology to work. However holyfireowneragentplace still doesn't convince me either. About placenames and sacred landscapes, I think it would be a mistake to believe that because some placenames are obviously tied to the mexica myth of origin that others necessarily are as well. As Dr. Wright is correct that the mexica were late arrivals in Mesoamerica and many places presumably had names before their arrival. These placenames could well be named according to other mythical frameworks than exactly the aztlan-chicomoztoc myth. And we have no way of knowing which placenames have pre-mexica roots and which haven't. I think for example that Dr. Wright argues very convincingly that Mexico is a Nahua calque of an earlier oto-pamean placename. The moon was a much more central deity to the oto-pame peoples than to the Nahuas. I agree that placenames are tied to cosmovision - but I think it is erroneous to assume that this must necessarily be in the sense of myths of origin. I think that most probably a lot of placenames are connected to cosmovision by linking humans to their environment through their common history. Much in the same way that Keith Basso has described for the Cibecue Apache in "Wisdom sits in places". For example In the area where I have done most of my research - north eastern Morelos - I have observed placenames that are quite newly coined. The northern part of the town of Hueyapan is so newly settled that many placenames are coined with in living memory of some inhabitants. The Northern part of the barrio San Andr?s for example was settled in the 1930'es by people moving out from the center which had become saturated and the forest was cleared to make room for new solares. Talking to some of the original settlers I asked why the northern part of San Andr?s was called /xonakayohka:n/ and i was told that this was because when they arrived the ground there was full of special kind of poisonous onions that caused the livestock to die. The settlers had to dig up all the onions in order to be able to use the land - and the poisonous onions are now gone. Another example is in the barrio of San Felipe where there is a place called /poxahko/. I could not get anyone to explain the translation to me - most people suggested it had to do with owls /poxakwa/ but I couldn't get that to fit. Later i found that there was another place also called poxahko and I realised that both were located on paths that ended blind - I surmised that there had at one time been a word /poxahtle/, meaning cul-de-sac. I asked and elderly Hueyape?o for such as word and I was told it meant a sleeping bag for babies - which is much like a sack. Nobody had seen any connection between that word and the places called poxahko (obviously because the -ko locative suffix is not productive in Hueyapan) Obviously such a placename hasn't got any relation to mythic events but simply describes a feature of the (man made) landscape. Other placenames in Hueyapan of recent coinage are /tetlalkwililpan/ which is the place of the first spanish rancho within Hueyapan territory (founded after 1700) - the placename means "on the lands taken from someone". Another is /amillan/ "water-maize-fields" which is the name of the first place in Hueyapan to have irrigated milpas - irrigation systems was first introduced to Hueyapan in the late 19th century by a priest who needed zacate for his livestock. In another village Tohtlan I encountered the placenames tlantzitzikame and orrnotitlan, the first obviously comes form i-tlan tzitzikame "by the ants" and the other stems from a couple of large breadbaking ovens that were installed there not that long ago. I don't see why placenaming customs in precolombian times would have been considerably different or more "mythical" than the ones of the colonial and modern Nahua. Magnus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 26 15:56:31 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:56:31 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <001f01ca0d8e$466769e0$d3363da0$@net.mx> Message-ID: Quoting David Wright : > Well, Michael, all we have to do is get all our morphophonological nuts and > bolts together, put them out in the moonlight, and the phonology doesn't > look so messy. The glottal stop comes from the regressive dissimilation that > is described in my post: two /k/ segments come together and the first one > becomes /?/ (that's a glottal stop, not a question mark). That's what I > meant by "(c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)." It looks cleaner in IPA: (/k/ + /k/ > > /?k/). The first /k/ is the last segment of the root morpheme of the noun > xi:c(tli), and the second /k/ is the first segment of the locative suffix > -co. So far so good? The next step is to shorten the /i:/, since a long > vowel before a glottal stop in Nahuatl shortens. That's what I meant by "(i: >> i)". The latter reduction in vowel length is not only expected but > required. (On both regressive dissimilation and vowel-length reduction > before a glottal stop, see Andrews, 2003: 25, 29, 35. The problem with Andrews' explanation, David, is that it's a fallacy based on circular logic, with no supporting evidence. He explains the etymology of "Mexico," on page 500, on the basis of this putative /kk/ > /?k/ shift, basing this pronouncement on an earlier note in the explanation of Nahuatl phonology. The reader then goes to that note, on page 35, only to find that he says, well, /kk/ > /?k/...and we see this in the term... Mexihco. (!) Bad reasoning. We need real evidence, many more examples. Andrews doesn't have any. :-) Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply states that the vowel before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh... None of the above serves to explain the etymology of /me:xihco/, as far as I can see. Saludos y buenos tardes, Michael > > Thus, Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + > co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)). This may look messy, but it's really not, it's > just a bit complicated, due to the chain reaction of (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu) > making (i: > i) necessary. > > Can you see it now? I'm using a shorthand loosely based on algebraic signs, > hoping they'll be comprehensible to most readers. The sign > is like a > little arrow, indicating the result of the morphophonemic processes that > distort the boundaries of the morphemes (it doesn't mean "greater than" > here). > > Since the regressive assimilation is optional, the following alternative is > also possible (as I pointed out in one of the footnotes in my post, although > I see now I forgot to mark the vowel length in the /i:/ segment): > > Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). This > form looks a lot cleaner, since there is only one segment change (tz + x > > xx) instead of three. > > Thanks for making me look hard at this, Mike. You helped me catch the error > in vowel length in the latter example. I've made the correction in the > manuscript for the forthcoming (someday, I hope) second edition of my book. > By the way, if anybody out there has a copy of the first edition without the > "Fe de erratas," please write to me and I'll send it to you by e-mail. > Between the author, the editor and the designer we managed to let a lot of > little bugs slip through the filters. > > Peace, > > David > > -----Mesaje original----- > De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] > Enviado el: s?bado, 25 de julio de 2009 07:00 p.m. > Para: David Wright > CC: Nahuat-l (messages) > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" > > The assimilation of the affricate written /tz/ to the fricative written > /x/ in the presumed etymology of /me:xihko/ as /me:tzli/ + /xi:ctli/ is > a given. That's just nuts-and-bolts Nahuatl phonetics. > > However, one cannot simply say that the long /i:/ of /xi:ctli/ goes to > short /i/ in /me:xihco/. That's a leap to the Moon itself. What is the > basis for this vowel shortening? This is not expected. > > Moreover, /xi:ctli/ doesn't have a glottal stop, written /h/, as we see > in /me:xihco/. Where did the glottal stop come from? > > The "Moon's Navel Place" is an enticing etymology, but more insights > are needed to explain the messy phonology. > > Michael > > Quoting David Wright : > >> [My message came back to me with very alien looking characters, for some >> reason. Here it goes again; I hope it comes through this time.] >> >> Mariotzin: >> >> Regarding the etymology of Mexico, I threw in my two cents worth a couple > of >> years ago. I used this toponym as an example in the chapter on phonology > in >> a text written to teach Nahuatl to Spanish translation to history > students. >> I don't mean to disqualify other attempts to understand the etymology of >> this word, but it's the best I've been able to come up with so far. I'll >> just copy and paste it here, simplifying the spelling conventions (using > the >> Andrews/Karttunen system, with colons instead of macrons to mark the long >> vowels; saltillos are represented with the letter 'h'). When I write > 'c-qu', >> of course I'm just referring to the phoneme /k/, which can be written 'c' > or >> 'qu' in this system; 'qu' is used when the vowel that follows is either > 'e' >> or 'i', following Spanish orthographic conventions. At the end are the >> references. >> >> The similarity of meaning in the Otomi toponym (noticed long ago by > Jacques >> Soustelle) is significant. Most toponyms in central Mexico are calques: >> meanings were translated from one language to another, regardless of >> phonological form. Thus the study of toponyms from a plurilinguistic >> perspective sheds much badly needed light on the meanings behind the place >> names, and can tips the scales in favor of one interpretation or another. > Of >> course, we'll never really know. Even if a 16th century native speaker >> explains a toponym's meaning to us in a text, there's always the > possibility >> that his interpretation is just a folk etymology. >> >> *************************************** >> 3.7.3. Disimilaci?n >> >> En adici?n al fen?meno de la asimilaci?n regresiva, puede haber > disimilaci?n >> regresiva. En estos casos dos consonantes id?nticas entran en contacto, y > la >> primera cambia para distinguirse de la segunda: >> >> ? |c-qu| + |c-qu| > |hc-hqu|.258 >> >> Un buen ejemplo de este proceso es el nombre de la ciudad que >> dominaba el escenario pol?tico del centro de M?xico durante el ?ltimo > siglo >> de la ?poca Prehisp?nica: >> >> ? Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) >> + co (c-qu + c-qu > hc-hqu)).259 >> >> La disimilaci?n regresiva es opcional en n?huatl; ya hemos visto que >> en algunos casos las consonantes dobles simplemente se alargan, por lo que >> el top?nimo anterior podr?a expresarse tambi?n como Me:xxi:cco. En la > ?poca >> Novohispana normalmente no se representaban los saltillos ni las > consonantes >> largas, escribiendo simplemente Mexico. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> 258 Andrews, 2003a: 35. >> 259 El top?nimo Me:xxihco (o Me:xxicco, sin la asimilaci?n opcional cc > > hc) >> significa ?en (-co) el ombligo (xi:ctli) de la Luna (me:tztli)?. Esta >> derivaci?n, si bien es pol?mica, se apoya en la gram?tica del n?huatl de >> Rinc?n (1998: 50r y sin p. [libro 4, cap?tulo 1; Vocabulario breve: >> ?Mexicco?]), y en el hecho de que el top?nimo otom? equivalente, en el >> C?dice de Huichapan, expresa un significado similar: Amadets?n?, ?en medio >> de la Luna? (Wright, 2005a: II, 338 [ap?ndice VIII, inciso B, no. 17]). >> >> *************************************** >> Source of this modified quote: >> >> Wright Carr, David Charles, Lectura del n?huatl, fundamentos para la >> traducci?n de los textos en n?huatl del periodo Novohispano Temprano, >> M?xico, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 2007, p. 71. >> >> Sources cites in the footnotes: >> >> Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition, >> Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003. >> >> Rinc?n, Antonio del, ?Arte mexicana?, facs?mil de la ed. de 1595, en Obras >> cl?sicas sobre la lengua n?huatl, ed. digital, Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de >> Le?n-Portilla, compiladora, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre >> Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. >> >> Wright Carr, David Charles, Los otom?es: cultura, lengua y escritura, > tesis, >> 2 vols., Zamora, Doctorado en Ciencias Sociales, El Colegio de Michoac?n, >> 2005. > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 26 16:12:47 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:12:47 -0400 Subject: Nahua toponyms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > Dr. Sullivan: before reading your response I realized the weakness of my > proposed translation of teotihuacan: you are right /ka:n/ is used for > placenames derived form nominals! It should be teotihuaya:n for my > etymology to work. However holyfireowneragentplace still doesn't convince me > either. Quemetzin, Magnus. /-ya:n/ occurs after impersonal verb forms in -hua and -lo, as for example in "cochihuayan," "tlamachtiloyan," etc. So, yes, -can on the end of the indeed attested verb "teotihua" is problematic. It would interesting to scour the known corpus of Nahuat place names to see if -can is seen *anywhere* else with impersonal verbs. That might help in this discussion. teotl + tetl- + -can is also within the (far-reaching :-) realm of possibility, 'place of the divine stone'. Does anyone know where "Teotihuacan" is attested? What are the original attested spellings? Are there any variant spellings? Who got this place name? Best, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sun Jul 26 18:39:37 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:39:37 +0200 Subject: Teotihuacan vs. Teohuacan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, There is one other possibility that we should consider when pondering the etymology of Teo:tihua'ca:n. That it is a variant of the attested place name Teo:hua'ca:n, variously 'Where One Has Deities', 'Where There Are Deities', or simply 'Place of the Deities (or Gods, if one prefers)'. I realize that we have a there that seems to discount that idea, but we should keep in mind that this all-important name of the city where deities gathered to found our world age has been the subject of considerable discussion in Nahuatl society and, thus, may well have undergone folk etymology, influenced by the verb teo:tihua. I realize, of course, that my suggestion is a little unconventional. The name as attested CANNOT be analyzed, as often done, as a compound of the verb teo:tihua + -ca:n. If this had been the case, the resultant form would be *Teo:tihuaca:n -- without the glottal stop before -ca:n. There are parallels for toponyms compounded of intransitive verb + -ca:n. For example, A:pitza:huaca:n 'Where the Water is Narrow'. Incidentally, we should get away from translations of -hua'ca:n toponyms as 'Where There Are -ers', as famously in Michhua'ca:n, supposedly 'Where There Are Possessors (Owners, Masters) of Fish / Fishermen'. I think there is good reason to understand the suffix chain to mean rather 'Where There Are (Fish, etc.)', 'Where One Has (Fish, etc.)', 'Place Having (Fish, etc.)'. An inhabitant of such a place is either a (Mich-, etc.)-hua' (identical with (mich-, etc.)-hua' in the sense of 'One Who Has ...s') or a (Mich-, etc.)-hua'catl. The advantage of this analysis is that we can avoid interpretations of such place names as Coyo:hua'ca:n as 'Place of the Possessors of Coyotes' and Chapolhua'ca:n as 'Place of the Possessors of Grasshoppers'. For an excellent (in fact, by far the best) discussion of Nahuatl toponyms, see Dyckerhoff, Ursula and Hanns J. Prem, Toponyme und Ethnonyme im Klassischen Aztekischen (Berlin 1990). Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jul 26 20:15:01 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:15:01 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" Message-ID: Muy estimado Michael: I'm glad we've gotten beyond the "messy phonology" argument to something more tangible, i.e. the possibility that one of Andrew's grammatical rules (/kk/ > /?k/) may be incorrect and that he offers little supporting evidence for it (only the toponym Me:xihco). The frequent lack of evidence and of showing where the examples are from is the weakest aspect of Andrews' Introduction to Classical Nahuatl. I often turn to this book for morphophonological information, since his treatment of this area goes beyond other sources I have at hand. You are right in being suspicious of the statements he makes without displaying his evidence. Usually when one looks for supporting evidence for Andrews' claims one finds them, but there may still be problems here and there (in spite of the fact that the 2003 edition was revised during a quarter of a century of constant use, although this is no guarantee). At any rate, the problem of /kk/ > /hk/ that you bring up needs to be solved. If no further examples turn up after an exhaustive search, this rule should be crossed out from our collective list of possible morphophonological changes. It occurs to me that a good place to start would be to read through Carochi with this doubt in mind. I wish I had a searchable digital version; that would make this task much quicker. Any other sources that consistently use the glottal stop (there aren't that many) should also be searched. I checked Launey's thesis but it he seems to have spread his comments on morphophonology throughout his lengthy text, so there's no quick fix. I don't have the time to solve this problem right now. If any listeros have pertinent data, it would be helpful if they shared it. The matter is of some importance. As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page 29 of Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run through any of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal stops (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works as "in the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required is the regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as "nuts-and-bolts Nahuatl phonetics". The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk dissimilation, is essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) becoming h (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c + c > hc). Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the navel of the Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal stops were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as single. (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. "inimexxaiac" (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [m?scara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, chapter 30 of the Florentine Codex.) In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; these don't alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, chapter 2, he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah (people from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark the long vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in the locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic suffix -ca plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the double x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the presence of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker Antonio del Rinc?n, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a Nahuatl grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on this matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the citation. (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark glottal stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they were omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original manuscript has not surfaced.) Here is what Rinc?n says, in the first chapter of book 4 (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde algo con la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como adjetivo v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el nombre, metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, como con los genitivos de los pronombres." In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio numbers), we find this gloss: "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tzx > xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this context. At least I don't see any viable alternatives. As John Sullivan pointed out, central Mexican toponymical etymology involves going beyond morphological analysis and searching for the meanings behind the names. I pointed out that most toponyms passed from one central Mexican language to another as calques. Here's the data on the Otomi name for Mexico Tenochtitlan that I mentioned in earlier post. It appears in the Huichapan Codex (BNAH Testimonios Pictogr?ficos 35-60), with two words: anbondo and amadetz?n?, sometimes written together, sometimes individually, much as we find Mexico and Tenochtitlan together or apart. The final 'o' in Anbondo represents a vowel midway between Spanish /o/ and /a/ and today is written by the Otomi with an underlined 'a' (except in the Mezquital, where this phoneme has shifted to /o/). So we have the singular nominal prefix an- with the word 'bonda (underlined 'a'), where ' is a glottal stop. It means "the red Opuntia fruit", the seedy fruit of the nopal cactus, of the sort that stains your mouth bright red when you eat it. (On a deeper level, this type of fruit is a metaphor for human hearts, food for the Sun, in Mexica literature and iconography, e.g. cuauhnochtli, "Opuntia fruit of the eagle", i.e. human hearts.) Anbondo is the semantic equivalent of the Nahuatl word tenochtli. The second Otomi toponym is Amadetz?n?, which can be parsed as the singular nominal prefix (an - n) plus the adjective made ("middle") plus the word ts?n? (today z?n? in Mezquital Otomi and some other variants), "Moon". (The ? is a nasal /a/.) Thus Anbondo Amadetz?n? can be translated "the red Opuntia fruit in the middle of the Moon". The close match between Rincon's translation of Mexico and the Otomi toponym Amadets?n? strongly supports the former's etymology. I guess that's all I have. I hope all this helps you to see the logic of the navel/middle of the Moon hypothesis. Thanks for motivating me to spend an interesting four hours looking at this problem and writing up the results. Hopefully someone will help us resolve the kk > hk question. Saludos respetuosos, David Wright ******************************************************************** The problem with Andrews' explanation, David, is that it's a fallacy based on circular logic, with no supporting evidence. He explains the etymology of "Mexico," on page 500, on the basis of this putative /kk/ > /?k/ shift, basing this pronouncement on an earlier note in the explanation of Nahuatl phonology. The reader then goes to that note, on page 35, only to find that he says, well, /kk/ > /?k/...and we see this in the term... Mexihco. (!) Bad reasoning. We need real evidence, many more examples. Andrews doesn't have any. :-) Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply states that the vowel before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh... None of the above serves to explain the etymology of /me:xihco/, as far as I can see. Saludos y buenos tardes, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 26 20:31:09 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:31:09 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <000601ca0e2d$c1a629d0$44f27d70$@net.mx> Message-ID: Quoting David Wright : >> > As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page 29 of > Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run through any > of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal stops > (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and > Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. David: You didn't understand my first posting. I never once questioned this fact. I have always known it to be true. It's simply that long /i:/ to short /i/ was not possible *in the context /kk/*, **which is as far as I could take the etymologizing of the "Mexicco"**. > > So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works as "in > the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation > proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: > > Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). > > In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required is the > regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as "nuts-and-bolts > Nahuatl phonetics". > > The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk dissimilation, is > essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) becoming h > (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). NOPE. Not accepted. Not proven. I would have to side with John Sullivan and says that we are dealing with something else. > > Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c > + c > hc). > > Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the navel of the > Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard > "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal stops > were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as single. > (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. "inimexxaiac" > (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [m?scara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, chapter > 30 of the Florentine Codex.) > > In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing > Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his > accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; these don't > alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, chapter 2, > he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah (people > from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark the long > vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual > procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in the > locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic suffix -ca > plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the double > x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. > > So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to > reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the presence > of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. Is it just me? All I see here is more circular reasoning. > > Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker Antonio del > Rinc?n, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a Nahuatl > grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on this > matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the citation. > (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark glottal > stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they were > omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original manuscript > has not surfaced.) Here is what Rinc?n says, in the first chapter of book 4 > (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): > > "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde algo con > la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como adjetivo > v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el nombre, > metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, como > con los genitivos de los pronombres." > > In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio numbers), > we find this gloss: > > "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." > > It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tzx >> xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this context. At > least I don't see any viable alternatives. Well...sorry. I see "Moon" but I don't see "navel". All I smell is folk-etymology, and native speakers are abundantly capable of folk-etymologizing. I don't have internet at home these days, so I'll have to print this up and take it home. I'll study it and see if I can come to the same conclusions that you have. But so far, no good. But thanks for the ideas. Best, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jul 26 20:41:16 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:41:16 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <000601ca0e2d$c1a629d0$44f27d70$@net.mx> Message-ID: Sorry. Just a short rejoinder. Out of curiosity I just looked up this place name in Karttunen's dictionary and found that she also has trouble accepting the "navel" explanation: "The etymology of this [Me:xihco] is opaque. Because of the difference in vowel length, it cannot be derived from ME-TL 'maguey'. The sequence XIH also differs in vowel length from XI:C-TLI 'navel,' which has been proposed as a component element..." Michael Quoting David Wright : > Muy estimado Michael: > > I'm glad we've gotten beyond the "messy phonology" argument to something > more tangible, i.e. the possibility that one of Andrew's grammatical rules > (/kk/ > /?k/) may be incorrect and that he offers little supporting evidence > for it (only the toponym Me:xihco). The frequent lack of evidence and of > showing where the examples are from is the weakest aspect of Andrews' > Introduction to Classical Nahuatl. I often turn to this book for > morphophonological information, since his treatment of this area goes beyond > other sources I have at hand. You are right in being suspicious of the > statements he makes without displaying his evidence. Usually when one looks > for supporting evidence for Andrews' claims one finds them, but there may > still be problems here and there (in spite of the fact that the 2003 edition > was revised during a quarter of a century of constant use, although this is > no guarantee). At any rate, the problem of /kk/ > /hk/ that you bring up > needs to be solved. If no further examples turn up after an exhaustive > search, this rule should be crossed out from our collective list of possible > morphophonological changes. It occurs to me that a good place to start would > be to read through Carochi with this doubt in mind. I wish I had a > searchable digital version; that would make this task much quicker. Any > other sources that consistently use the glottal stop (there aren't that > many) should also be searched. I checked Launey's thesis but it he seems to > have spread his comments on morphophonology throughout his lengthy text, so > there's no quick fix. I don't have the time to solve this problem right now. > If any listeros have pertinent data, it would be helpful if they shared it. > The matter is of some importance. > > As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page 29 of > Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run through any > of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal stops > (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and > Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. > > So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works as "in > the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation > proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: > > Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). > > In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required is the > regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as "nuts-and-bolts > Nahuatl phonetics". > > The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk dissimilation, is > essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) becoming h > (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). > > Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c > + c > hc). > > Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the navel of the > Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard > "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal stops > were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as single. > (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. "inimexxaiac" > (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [m?scara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, chapter > 30 of the Florentine Codex.) > > In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing > Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his > accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; these don't > alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, chapter 2, > he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah (people > from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark the long > vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual > procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in the > locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic suffix -ca > plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the double > x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. > > So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to > reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the presence > of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. > > Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker Antonio del > Rinc?n, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a Nahuatl > grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on this > matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the citation. > (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark glottal > stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they were > omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original manuscript > has not surfaced.) Here is what Rinc?n says, in the first chapter of book 4 > (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): > > "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde algo con > la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como adjetivo > v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el nombre, > metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, como > con los genitivos de los pronombres." > > In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio numbers), > we find this gloss: > > "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." > > It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tzx >> xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this context. At > least I don't see any viable alternatives. > > As John Sullivan pointed out, central Mexican toponymical etymology involves > going beyond morphological analysis and searching for the meanings behind > the names. I pointed out that most toponyms passed from one central Mexican > language to another as calques. Here's the data on the Otomi name for Mexico > Tenochtitlan that I mentioned in earlier post. It appears in the Huichapan > Codex (BNAH Testimonios Pictogr?ficos 35-60), with two words: anbondo and > amadetz?n?, sometimes written together, sometimes individually, much as we > find Mexico and Tenochtitlan together or apart. The final 'o' in Anbondo > represents a vowel midway between Spanish /o/ and /a/ and today is written > by the Otomi with an underlined 'a' (except in the Mezquital, where this > phoneme has shifted to /o/). So we have the singular nominal prefix an- with > the word 'bonda (underlined 'a'), where ' is a glottal stop. It means "the > red Opuntia fruit", the seedy fruit of the nopal cactus, of the sort that > stains your mouth bright red when you eat it. (On a deeper level, this type > of fruit is a metaphor for human hearts, food for the Sun, in Mexica > literature and iconography, e.g. cuauhnochtli, "Opuntia fruit of the eagle", > i.e. human hearts.) Anbondo is the semantic equivalent of the Nahuatl word > tenochtli. The second Otomi toponym is Amadetz?n?, which can be parsed as > the singular nominal prefix (an - n) plus the adjective made ("middle") plus > the word ts?n? (today z?n? in Mezquital Otomi and some other variants), > "Moon". (The ? is a nasal /a/.) Thus Anbondo Amadetz?n? can be translated > "the red Opuntia fruit in the middle of the Moon". > > The close match between Rincon's translation of Mexico and the Otomi toponym > Amadets?n? strongly supports the former's etymology. > > I guess that's all I have. I hope all this helps you to see the logic of the > navel/middle of the Moon hypothesis. Thanks for motivating me to spend an > interesting four hours looking at this problem and writing up the results. > Hopefully someone will help us resolve the kk > hk question. > > Saludos respetuosos, > > David Wright > > ******************************************************************** > The problem with Andrews' explanation, David, is that it's a fallacy based > on circular logic, with no supporting evidence. > > He explains the etymology of "Mexico," on page 500, on the basis of this > putative /kk/ > /?k/ shift, basing this pronouncement on an earlier note in > the explanation of Nahuatl phonology. The reader then goes to that note, on > page 35, only to find that he says, well, /kk/ > /?k/...and we see this in > the term... Mexihco. (!) Bad reasoning. We need real evidence, many more > examples. Andrews doesn't have any. :-) > > Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply states that the vowel > before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh... > > None of the above serves to explain the etymology of /me:xihco/, as far as I > can see. > > Saludos y buenos tardes, > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Sun Jul 26 22:10:03 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:10:03 +0200 Subject: Me:xi'co and other toponyms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, It's good to see this topic receiving attention again. But please excuse me, Magnus, for setting the record straight on a few things -- this is just to avoid certain misconceptions getting perpetuated in cyberspace and beyond. 1) In the Navel/Centre of the Moon: David Wright was not saying that the idea was his. Nor was it Tibon's, which a mail by another contributor seemed to suggest. As David and I both had noted, the popularizer of this etymology was Jacques Soustelle, although, as David rightly points out, the etymology goes back to Rinc?n. And, as Michael McCafferty stresses, the actual evidence (incl. Carochi and Rinc?n) for the form and meaning of the name in the 16th century is not particularly overwhelming. After all, the fact that a language (or even group of languages) adopts a specific etymology in translating a place name does not make the etymology any more convincing or original than another -- we have plenty of examples of false or variant etymologies being so adopted. I even found one example of a Nahuatl name coming from a mistranslation of a 16th-century Spanish translation of a Oaxacan toponym! Besides, I have just offered an alternative etymology for Me:xi'co, namely that it derives from a legendary (or semi-legendary) ancestor, , linked to Hutzilopochtli -- the same Mexi after whom the (pre-Mexica) are named. The latter name can hardly be derived from me:tz- 'moon' plus xic- 'navel'! 2) The Otomi connection: You state that "Dr. Wright argues very convincingly that Mexico is a Nahua calque of an earlier oto-pamean placename". Actually, no he doesn't -- at least not in the mails posted recently. As far as I can tell, David does not claim an Otomi (let alone Otopamean) etymology for Me:xi'co. He and I merely repeated (with some phonological elaboration) the arguments and the connection already made by Soustelle in his classic introduction to Aztec civilization. It would not be very plausible ( -- in fact, it would be downright implausible -- ) to suggest that the Aztec capital itself is a translation of an Otomi name. 3) -ca:n toponyms: You write, "Dr. Sullivan: before reading your response I realized the weakness of my proposed translation of teotihuacan: you are right /ka:n/ is used for placenames derived form nominals! It should be teotihuaya:n for my etymology to work." Not quite. There are indeed many instances of -ca:n in place names NOT derived from nominals. These names consist of an intransitive verb + -ca:n (see my separate posting on Teo:tihua'ca:n vs. Teo:hua'ca:n). Thanks to all for the stimulating exchange! And thanks, Magnus, for the details on recent toponym history in Morelos. Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jul 27 02:58:09 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:58:09 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <20090726163109.1ombbfn3kscsw4o8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Estimado Michael: First a correction. You say "You didn't understand my first posting. I never once questioned this fact. I have always known it to be true. / It's simply that long /i:/ to short /i/ was not possible *in the context /kk/*, **which is as far as I could take the etymologizing of the 'Mexicco'**." To be precise, you did question the vowel shortening (i: > i) in the context of Me:xihco, that is, where the /i:/ immediately precedes a glottal stop /h/. What you said was "However, one cannot simply say that the long /i:/ of /xi:ctli/ goes to short /i/ in /me:xihco/. That's a leap to the Moon itself. What is the basis for this vowel shortening? This is not expected." In your next post you said "Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply states that the vowel before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh..." (I take "Uh..." as an expression of doubt here, although it's a rather ambiguous term, especially in writing as opposed to speech, where intonation and gesture provide more clues.) Then you say "NOPE. Not accepted. Not proven. / I would have to side with John Sullivan and says that we are dealing with something else," regarding both etymologies, Me:xxi:cco and Me:xxihco. I would remind you that we are checking the grammatical and morphological viabilities of two etymological hypotheses, not (at least in my case) choosing a favorite and blindly defending it. There are other hypotheses to be checked, some coming from classical sources, and some listeros have made useful suggestions in this sense. Saying "NOPE" without further argument won't get us very far, nor will taking "sides," since the vaguely negated hypotheses remain on the discussion table, in spite of the use of upper case letters to make the negation more "forceful." Both the negation and the taking of sides are essentially non-arguments, providing no new arguments nor data. As for Carochi's use of Me:xihco in 1645, you say "All I see here is more circular reasoning." The Carochi reference is a step toward breaking out of Andrews' loop. It is independent confirmation of Andrews' use of this form, coming from a highly informed source of the first half of the colonial period, who worked with a corpus of older documents and with the collaboration of a team of linguistically sophisticated native speakers in the linguistically oriented Jesuit college at Tepotzotl?n, north of Mexico City (sometimes called "el c?rculo de Carochi" in recent scholarship). The sophistication of this team can be seen in the manuscripts they produced. Some are in the Bancroft Library and have been published by fellow listero Barry Sell in colaboration with Louise Burkhart. Karttunen used these as a source for restoring long vowels and glottal stops in her dictionary. I've done preliminary studies of manuscripts in Otomi coming from the Otomi "c?rculo de Carochi" at Tepotzotl?n; one is at the Newberry, another at Princeton, a third at the BNAH in Mexico City. As for Rinc?n's use in 1595 of Mexicco, you say "Well...sorry. I see 'Moon' but I don't see 'navel'. All I smell is folk-etymology, and native speakers are abundantly capable of folk-etymologizing." Considering Rinc?n's translation, "en medio de la luna", we have me:tztli, "Moon," as the only word with this meaning in Nahuatl that begins with the sequence me, followed by the sequence xic, in a text where long vowels are not marked, with the meaning "middle," and the locative suffix -co at the end. The /x/ of xic would clearly justify suppressing the tz of me:tztli, at least in writing, which of course is what we're dealing with. Is there a better explanation, or even a remotely viable explanation, for a xic sequence having the meaning "middle," other than xi:ctli, "navel"? If there is, then we can spin another hypothesis and put it on the discussion table. If any hypothesis "works" within the known rules of early colonial central Mexican grammar, then it has a place on the table. Yes, native speakers of any language are capable of producing folk etymologies, but these aren't detected through the nose (what I'm trying to say is that the ground rules of science require that hunches be passed through the filters of rational, evidence-based analysis; hunches are part of the process, but in raw, unfiltered form they are of little consequence). Given the available evidence, determining the deep meaning of a central Mexican toponym in Nahuatl is often impossible, and all that scholars can do in many cases is to lay out all of the hypotheses that work, compare them to all the evidence available, and eliminate those that definitely don't work. We are often left with two or more possible etymologies, and all of these should be considered when applying these etymologies in our research (for example, in the analysis of pictorial signs in the native central Mexican scribal/artistic tradition). This doesn't play as well in the lecture hall as a well crafted piece of rhetoric where everything is neatly explained in a confident tone, but it gets our ideas a bit more in line with reality. One more point: if a lot of people in a society believe a folk etymology, then that etymology becomes culturally significant, regardless of the word's original meaning. Thus the meanings of toponyms may shift through time and space, and these shifts become important parts of the picture we're looking at. Needless to say they can affect the spelling of the words (and the way they are painted or carved in the pictorial texts). Finally, the Otomi calque Anbondo Amadetz?n?, coinciding in meaning with the hypothetical etymologies Me:xxi:cco and Me:xxihco as "in the navel/middle of the Moon," is significant and deserves consideration. At least among western Mezquital Otomi of the early 17th century this was the meaning. The toponym "Mexicco," however you parse it, had the same meaning for a late 16th century indigenous noble from Texcoco, Rinc?n, who wrote an important description of his mother tongue, being the first to explain the importance of vowel length contrast and the glottal stop. Considering the weight of all of this evidence, I think it would be careless to dismiss Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco at this point. John Sullivan's recent post on the /kk/ > /hk/ problem would seem to tip the scales somewhat in favor of accepting Andrews' morphophonological rule in this case (although I don't consider the matter closed), which means that for now I have to leave the Me:xxihco ("in the navel of the Moon") hypothesis on the table. I hope this helps put things into focus and/or clears up at least some of your doubts. And above all, keep doubting; that's how knowledge advances. Con todo respeto, David Wright -----Mensaje original----- De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] Enviado el: domingo, 26 de julio de 2009 03:31 p.m. Para: David Wright CC: Nahuat-l (messages) Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" Quoting David Wright : >> > As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page 29 of > Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run through any > of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal stops > (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and > Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. David: You didn't understand my first posting. I never once questioned this fact. I have always known it to be true. It's simply that long /i:/ to short /i/ was not possible *in the context /kk/*, **which is as far as I could take the etymologizing of the "Mexicco"**. > > So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works as "in > the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation > proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: > > Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). > > In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required is the > regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as "nuts-and-bolts > Nahuatl phonetics". > > The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk dissimilation, is > essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) becoming h > (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). NOPE. Not accepted. Not proven. I would have to side with John Sullivan and says that we are dealing with something else. > > Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co (c > + c > hc). > > Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the navel of the > Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard > "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal stops > were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as single. > (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. "inimexxaiac" > (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [m?scara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, chapter > 30 of the Florentine Codex.) > > In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing > Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his > accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; these don't > alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, chapter 2, > he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah (people > from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark the long > vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual > procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in the > locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic suffix -ca > plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the double > x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. > > So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to > reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the presence > of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. Is it just me? All I see here is more circular reasoning. > > Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker Antonio del > Rinc?n, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a Nahuatl > grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on this > matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the citation. > (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark glottal > stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they were > omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original manuscript > has not surfaced.) Here is what Rinc?n says, in the first chapter of book 4 > (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): > > "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde algo con > la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como adjetivo > v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el nombre, > metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, como > con los genitivos de los pronombres." > > In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio numbers), > we find this gloss: > > "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." > > It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tzx >> xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this context. At > least I don't see any viable alternatives. Well...sorry. I see "Moon" but I don't see "navel". All I smell is folk-etymology, and native speakers are abundantly capable of folk-etymologizing. I don't have internet at home these days, so I'll have to print this up and take it home. I'll study it and see if I can come to the same conclusions that you have. But so far, no good. But thanks for the ideas. Best, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jul 27 03:06:44 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:06:44 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <20090726164116.w0tmb2j3lwkkogok@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Estimado Michael: We've already cleared that one up. In one of the hypothetical etymologies we've been discussing (Me:xxihco or Me:xihco), /kk/ becomes /hk/, and the /h/ requires the /i:/ to shorten, the latter change having been accepted by consensus (in early colonial central Mexican Nahuatl at least; John raises doubts for modern Huastecan Nahuatl). So we're back to the question of /kk/ > /hk/ being a valid morphophonological change or not. Saludos cordiales, David -----Mensaje original----- De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] Enviado el: domingo, 26 de julio de 2009 03:41 p.m. Para: David Wright CC: Nahuat-l (messages) Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" Sorry. Just a short rejoinder. Out of curiosity I just looked up this place name in Karttunen's dictionary and found that she also has trouble accepting the "navel" explanation: "The etymology of this [Me:xihco] is opaque. Because of the difference in vowel length, it cannot be derived from ME-TL 'maguey'. The sequence XIH also differs in vowel length from XI:C-TLI 'navel,' which has been proposed as a component element..." Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jul 27 10:37:25 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:37:25 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <000001ca0e66$12fa7f60$38ef7e20$@net.mx> Message-ID: For the record. This was a misunderstanding. I didn't accept the /kk/ xi:cco going to /?k/ *in the first place*, so, what i intended to say was that, as far as I was concerned, no vowel shortening was possible. I still question the vowel shortening. It's very strange. Saludos y adios. Michael Quoting David Wright : > Estimado Michael: > > First a correction. You say "You didn't understand my first posting. I never > once questioned this > fact. I have always known it to be true. / It's simply that long /i:/ to > short /i/ was not possible *in the > context /kk/*, **which is as far as I could take the etymologizing of the > 'Mexicco'**." > > To be precise, you did question the vowel shortening (i: > i) in the context > of Me:xihco, that is, where the /i:/ immediately precedes a glottal stop > /h/. What you said was "However, one cannot simply say that the long /i:/ of > /xi:ctli/ goes to short /i/ in /me:xihco/. That's a leap to the Moon itself. > What is the basis for this vowel shortening? This is not expected." In your > next post you said "Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply > states that the vowel before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh..." (I take > "Uh..." as an expression of doubt here, although it's a rather ambiguous > term, especially in writing as opposed to speech, where intonation and > gesture provide more clues.) > > Then you say "NOPE. Not accepted. Not proven. / I would have to side with > John Sullivan and says that we are dealing with something else," regarding > both etymologies, Me:xxi:cco and Me:xxihco. I would remind you that we are > checking the grammatical and morphological viabilities of two etymological > hypotheses, not (at least in my case) choosing a favorite and blindly > defending it. There are other hypotheses to be checked, some coming from > classical sources, and some listeros have made useful suggestions in this > sense. Saying "NOPE" without further argument won't get us very far, nor > will taking "sides," since the vaguely negated hypotheses remain on the > discussion table, in spite of the use of upper case letters to make the > negation more "forceful." Both the negation and the taking of sides are > essentially non-arguments, providing no new arguments nor data. > > As for Carochi's use of Me:xihco in 1645, you say "All I see here is more > circular reasoning." The Carochi reference is a step toward breaking out of > Andrews' loop. It is independent confirmation of Andrews' use of this form, > coming from a highly informed source of the first half of the colonial > period, who worked with a corpus of older documents and with the > collaboration of a team of linguistically sophisticated native speakers in > the linguistically oriented Jesuit college at Tepotzotl?n, north of Mexico > City (sometimes called "el c?rculo de Carochi" in recent scholarship). The > sophistication of this team can be seen in the manuscripts they produced. > Some are in the Bancroft Library and have been published by fellow listero > Barry Sell in colaboration with Louise Burkhart. Karttunen used these as a > source for restoring long vowels and glottal stops in her dictionary. I've > done preliminary studies of manuscripts in Otomi coming from the Otomi > "c?rculo de Carochi" at Tepotzotl?n; one is at the Newberry, another at > Princeton, a third at the BNAH in Mexico City. > > As for Rinc?n's use in 1595 of Mexicco, you say "Well...sorry. I see 'Moon' > but I don't see 'navel'. All I smell is > folk-etymology, and native speakers are abundantly capable of > folk-etymologizing." Considering Rinc?n's translation, "en medio de la > luna", we have me:tztli, "Moon," as the only word with this meaning in > Nahuatl that begins with the sequence me, followed by the sequence xic, in a > text where long vowels are not marked, with the meaning "middle," and the > locative suffix -co at the end. The /x/ of xic would clearly justify > suppressing the tz of me:tztli, at least in writing, which of course is what > we're dealing with. Is there a better explanation, or even a remotely viable > explanation, for a xic sequence having the meaning "middle," other than > xi:ctli, "navel"? If there is, then we can spin another hypothesis and put > it on the discussion table. If any hypothesis "works" within the known rules > of early colonial central Mexican grammar, then it has a place on the table. > > Yes, native speakers of any language are capable of producing folk > etymologies, but these aren't detected through the nose (what I'm trying to > say is that the ground rules of science require that hunches be passed > through the filters of rational, evidence-based analysis; hunches are part > of the process, but in raw, unfiltered form they are of little consequence). > Given the available evidence, determining the deep meaning of a central > Mexican toponym in Nahuatl is often impossible, and all that scholars can do > in many cases is to lay out all of the hypotheses that work, compare them to > all the evidence available, and eliminate those that definitely don't work. > We are often left with two or more possible etymologies, and all of these > should be considered when applying these etymologies in our research (for > example, in the analysis of pictorial signs in the native central Mexican > scribal/artistic tradition). This doesn't play as well in the lecture hall > as a well crafted piece of rhetoric where everything is neatly explained in > a confident tone, but it gets our ideas a bit more in line with reality. One > more point: if a lot of people in a society believe a folk etymology, then > that etymology becomes culturally significant, regardless of the word's > original meaning. Thus the meanings of toponyms may shift through time and > space, and these shifts become important parts of the picture we're looking > at. Needless to say they can affect the spelling of the words (and the way > they are painted or carved in the pictorial texts). > > Finally, the Otomi calque Anbondo Amadetz?n?, coinciding in meaning with the > hypothetical etymologies Me:xxi:cco and Me:xxihco as "in the navel/middle of > the Moon," is significant and deserves consideration. At least among western > Mezquital Otomi of the early 17th century this was the meaning. The toponym > "Mexicco," however you parse it, had the same meaning for a late 16th > century indigenous noble from Texcoco, Rinc?n, who wrote an important > description of his mother tongue, being the first to explain the importance > of vowel length contrast and the glottal stop. Considering the weight of all > of this evidence, I think it would be careless to dismiss Me:xxi:cco or > Me:xxihco at this point. John Sullivan's recent post on the /kk/ > /hk/ > problem would seem to tip the scales somewhat in favor of accepting Andrews' > morphophonological rule in this case (although I don't consider the matter > closed), which means that for now I have to leave the Me:xxihco ("in the > navel of the Moon") hypothesis on the table. > > I hope this helps put things into focus and/or clears up at least some of > your doubts. And above all, keep doubting; that's how knowledge advances. > > Con todo respeto, > > David Wright > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] > Enviado el: domingo, 26 de julio de 2009 03:31 p.m. > Para: David Wright > CC: Nahuat-l (messages) > Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" > > Quoting David Wright : > >>> >> As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page 29 of >> Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run through > any >> of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal stops >> (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and >> Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. > > David: > > You didn't understand my first posting. I never once questioned this > fact. I have always known it to be true. > > It's simply that long /i:/ to short /i/ was not possible *in the > context /kk/*, **which is as far as I could take the etymologizing of > the "Mexicco"**. > >> >> So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works as "in >> the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation >> proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: >> >> Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). >> >> In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required is the >> regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as > "nuts-and-bolts >> Nahuatl phonetics". >> >> The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk dissimilation, is >> essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) becoming > h >> (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). > > > NOPE. Not accepted. Not proven. > > I would have to side with John Sullivan and says that we are dealing > with something else. > > >> >> Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) + co > (c >> + c > hc). >> >> Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the navel of > the >> Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard >> "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal stops >> were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as single. >> (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. "inimexxaiac" >> (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [m?scara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, > chapter >> 30 of the Florentine Codex.) >> >> In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing >> Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his >> accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; these > don't >> alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, chapter 2, >> he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah (people >> from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark the long >> vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual >> procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in the >> locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic suffix -ca >> plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the > double >> x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. >> >> So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to >> reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the presence >> of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. > > > Is it just me? All I see here is more circular reasoning. > >> >> Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker Antonio del >> Rinc?n, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a Nahuatl >> grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on this >> matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the citation. >> (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark > glottal >> stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they were >> omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original > manuscript >> has not surfaced.) Here is what Rinc?n says, in the first chapter of book > 4 >> (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): >> >> "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde algo > con >> la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como adjetivo >> v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el nombre, >> metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, como >> con los genitivos de los pronombres." >> >> In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio > numbers), >> we find this gloss: >> >> "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." >> >> It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) > (tzx >>> xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this context. At >> least I don't see any viable alternatives. > > > Well...sorry. I see "Moon" but I don't see "navel". All I smell is > folk-etymology, and native speakers are abundantly capable of > folk-etymologizing. > > > I don't have internet at home these days, so I'll have to print this up > and take it home. I'll study it and see if I can come to the same > conclusions that you have. But so far, no good. But thanks for the > ideas. > > Best, > > Michael > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Jul 26 21:49:29 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:49:29 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <000601ca0e2d$c1a629d0$44f27d70$@net.mx> Message-ID: Listeros, 1. /kk/ > /hk/ is an absolute rule for Huastecan Nahuatl. In fact, in the subject-specific object sets "nic-" and "tic-" followed by a consonant, the /k/ is practically inaudible. Further, -uh is pronounced /h/, and /kw-k > hk/. However, none of these sound changes result in the shortening of a preceeding long vowel. In other words, it is not the sound of the glottal stop that shortens the preceeding long vowel, it is the glottal stop itself. For this reason, though I'm sure that the "c" in "xi:ctli" is pronounced /h/ before /k/, I doubt that this would shorten the "i:". Is there any evidence in Classical Nahuatl (besides the possible example of "mexihco") of a "c" actually being written as an "h" or converting into the diacritic for a glottal stop, before another /k/? John On Jul 26, 2009, at 3:15 PM, David Wright wrote: > Muy estimado Michael: > > I'm glad we've gotten beyond the "messy phonology" argument to > something > more tangible, i.e. the possibility that one of Andrew's grammatical > rules > (/kk/ > /?k/) may be incorrect and that he offers little supporting > evidence > for it (only the toponym Me:xihco). The frequent lack of evidence > and of > showing where the examples are from is the weakest aspect of Andrews' > Introduction to Classical Nahuatl. I often turn to this book for > morphophonological information, since his treatment of this area > goes beyond > other sources I have at hand. You are right in being suspicious of the > statements he makes without displaying his evidence. Usually when > one looks > for supporting evidence for Andrews' claims one finds them, but > there may > still be problems here and there (in spite of the fact that the 2003 > edition > was revised during a quarter of a century of constant use, although > this is > no guarantee). At any rate, the problem of /kk/ > /hk/ that you > bring up > needs to be solved. If no further examples turn up after an exhaustive > search, this rule should be crossed out from our collective list of > possible > morphophonological changes. It occurs to me that a good place to > start would > be to read through Carochi with this doubt in mind. I wish I had a > searchable digital version; that would make this task much quicker. > Any > other sources that consistently use the glottal stop (there aren't > that > many) should also be searched. I checked Launey's thesis but it he > seems to > have spread his comments on morphophonology throughout his lengthy > text, so > there's no quick fix. I don't have the time to solve this problem > right now. > If any listeros have pertinent data, it would be helpful if they > shared it. > The matter is of some importance. > > As for vowels before glottal stops being short, you don't need page > 29 of > Andrews 2003 to see this; it's basic Nahuatl phonology. Just run > through any > of the grammars and dictionaries that mark vowel length and glottal > stops > (Carochi, Andrews, Launey, Campbell/Karttunen, Karttunen, Wolf, and > Bierhorst) and you'll see how it works. > > So we have one possible analysis of the toponym "Mexico" that works > as "in > the navel of the Moon", in which the optional regressive dissimilation > proposed by Andrews (kk > hk) is not applied: > > Me:xxi:cco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (tz + x > xx) + co). > > In the latter analysis the only morphophonological change required > is the > regressive assimilation tzx > xx which you have accepted as "nuts- > and-bolts > Nahuatl phonetics". > > The second form, which depends on the optional kk > hk > dissimilation, is > essentially the same as the latter, except for the first c (/k/) > becoming h > (/?/), with the required shortening of the long vowel (i: > i). > > Me:xxihco ((me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - tli) (i: > i) (tz + x > xx) > + co (c > + c > hc). > > Either form, Me:xxi:cco or Me:xxihco, can be translated "in the > navel of the > Moon". Either would have usually been written "Mexico" in standard > "Franciscan" orthography, since long vowels were not marked, glottal > stops > were rarely written, and double consonants were usually written as > single. > (Exceptionally, I've seen xx in Franciscan orthography, e.g. > "inimexxaiac" > (in i:mexxa:yac), "su cara [m?scara] de [piel de] muslo", in book 2, > chapter > 30 of the Florentine Codex.) > > In support of Me:xxihco, we have Carochi (book 3, chapter 11) writing > Me:xihco (I've changed his macron into a colon for the long e, and his > accent over the i to an h to sneak it by the Internet gremlins; > these don't > alter the underlying phonology.) This is not a typo. In book 1, > chapter 2, > he writes Mexihcatl (person from the city of Mexico) and Mexihcah > (people > from the city of Mexico). Here he seems to have forgotten to mark > the long > vowels; in book 3, chapter 11 we find Me:xicah and Me:xicah. The usual > procedure with these gentile names, derived from toponyms ending in > the > locative suffix -co, is to remove the -co and add the gentilic > suffix -ca > plus -tl for singular or -h for the plural. Carochi didn't write the > double > x, but this can be considered normal in colonial period Nahuatl texts. > > So there we have a non-Andrews example of Me:xihco. That would tend to > reinforce Andrews' kk > hk regressive dissimilation, assuming the > presence > of the root xi:c, although additional examples are still needed. > > Carochi's mentor, the Jesuit priest and native Nahuatl speaker > Antonio del > Rinc?n, descendant of the royal house of Texcoco and author of a > Nahuatl > grammar (Arte Mexicana) published in 1595, has something to say on > this > matter, as I mentioned briefly in a recent post, providing the > citation. > (Unfortunately, although he explains how he used diacritics to mark > glottal > stops in his text, the printer was unable to reproduce them and they > were > omitted from the published version; as far as I know the original > manuscript > has not surfaced.) Here is what Rinc?n says, in the first chapter of > book 4 > (folio 50 recto and verso of the 1595 edition): > > "Nota lo primero que en qualquier composicion el nombre que pierde > algo con > la composicion es el que tiene la significacion en oblico, o como > adjetivo > v.g. [...] Mexico. en medio de la luna, porque perdio el tli, el > nombre, > metztli y generalmente pierden los nombres la ultima en composicion, > como > con los genitivos de los pronombres." > > In his "Vocabulario breve", at the end of his Arte (without folio > numbers), > we find this gloss: > > "Mexicco: ciudad de Mexico, i. en medio de la luna." > > It's pretty clear that he's thinking (me:tztli - tli) + (xi:ctli - > tli) (tzx >> xx > x) + co, with xi:ctli, "navel", meaning "middle" in this >> context. At > least I don't see any viable alternatives. > > As John Sullivan pointed out, central Mexican toponymical etymology > involves > going beyond morphological analysis and searching for the meanings > behind > the names. I pointed out that most toponyms passed from one central > Mexican > language to another as calques. Here's the data on the Otomi name > for Mexico > Tenochtitlan that I mentioned in earlier post. It appears in the > Huichapan > Codex (BNAH Testimonios Pictogr?ficos 35-60), with two words: > anbondo and > amadetz?n?, sometimes written together, sometimes individually, much > as we > find Mexico and Tenochtitlan together or apart. The final 'o' in > Anbondo > represents a vowel midway between Spanish /o/ and /a/ and today is > written > by the Otomi with an underlined 'a' (except in the Mezquital, where > this > phoneme has shifted to /o/). So we have the singular nominal prefix > an- with > the word 'bonda (underlined 'a'), where ' is a glottal stop. It > means "the > red Opuntia fruit", the seedy fruit of the nopal cactus, of the sort > that > stains your mouth bright red when you eat it. (On a deeper level, > this type > of fruit is a metaphor for human hearts, food for the Sun, in Mexica > literature and iconography, e.g. cuauhnochtli, "Opuntia fruit of the > eagle", > i.e. human hearts.) Anbondo is the semantic equivalent of the > Nahuatl word > tenochtli. The second Otomi toponym is Amadetz?n?, which can be > parsed as > the singular nominal prefix (an - n) plus the adjective made > ("middle") plus > the word ts?n? (today z?n? in Mezquital Otomi and some other > variants), > "Moon". (The ? is a nasal /a/.) Thus Anbondo Amadetz?n? can be > translated > "the red Opuntia fruit in the middle of the Moon". > > The close match between Rincon's translation of Mexico and the Otomi > toponym > Amadets?n? strongly supports the former's etymology. > > I guess that's all I have. I hope all this helps you to see the > logic of the > navel/middle of the Moon hypothesis. Thanks for motivating me to > spend an > interesting four hours looking at this problem and writing up the > results. > Hopefully someone will help us resolve the kk > hk question. > > Saludos respetuosos, > > David Wright > > ******************************************************************** > The problem with Andrews' explanation, David, is that it's a fallacy > based > on circular logic, with no supporting evidence. > > He explains the etymology of "Mexico," on page 500, on the basis of > this > putative /kk/ > /?k/ shift, basing this pronouncement on an earlier > note in > the explanation of Nahuatl phonology. The reader then goes to that > note, on > page 35, only to find that he says, well, /kk/ > /?k/...and we see > this in > the term... Mexihco. (!) Bad reasoning. We need real evidence, many > more > examples. Andrews doesn't have any. :-) > > Now, on page 29 that you refer us to, Andrews simply states that the > vowel > before a glottal stop has to be short. Uh... > > None of the above serves to explain the etymology of /me:xihco/, as > far as I > can see. > > Saludos y buenos tardes, > > Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jul 27 11:56:24 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:56:24 -0400 Subject: Etymology of "Mexico" In-Reply-To: <000101ca0e67$45bfd2a0$d13f77e0$@net.mx> Message-ID: David, Gordon, John, Magnus, and anyone else still aboard this bronco. Here's how i see the problem, at least with four minutes to get to class: 1) Andrews' linguistic analysis, of an earlier idea, is simply circular and lacks any evidence. 2) John has given us an example of /kk/ going to /?k/. That's *one* little piece of evidence from Huastecan. 3) But John's shift doesn't give us a short vowel. And that's an important linguistic observation. Perhaps I'm inside Central Algonquian too much, but my sense of Nahuatl, as in C.A., is that vowel length is to be revered. :-) 4) Folk-etymologizing of another term beginning with */m:ex-/ is quite possible in giving us the "In the navel of the Moon" toponym. 5) I don't see any bedrock support in anything else that's been offered, the historical stuff, although I've enjoyed looking at it. Maybe #5's just my problem. Best, Michael Quoting David Wright : > Estimado Michael: > > We've already cleared that one up. In one of the hypothetical etymologies > we've been discussing (Me:xxihco or Me:xihco), /kk/ becomes /hk/, and the > /h/ requires the /i:/ to shorten, the latter change having been accepted by > consensus (in early colonial central Mexican Nahuatl at least; John raises > doubts for modern Huastecan Nahuatl). So we're back to the question of /kk/ >> /hk/ being a valid morphophonological change or not. > > Saludos cordiales, > > David > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Michael McCafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] > Enviado el: domingo, 26 de julio de 2009 03:41 p.m. > Para: David Wright > CC: Nahuat-l (messages) > Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] Etymology of "Mexico" > > Sorry. Just a short rejoinder. Out of curiosity I just looked up this > place name in Karttunen's dictionary and found that she also has > trouble accepting the "navel" explanation: > > "The etymology of this [Me:xihco] is opaque. Because of the difference > in vowel length, it cannot be derived from ME-TL 'maguey'. The sequence > XIH also differs in vowel length from XI:C-TLI 'navel,' which has been > proposed as a component element..." > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Jul 27 12:27:44 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:27:44 -0400 Subject: On Mexico Message-ID: Dear colleagues, We've had a fun time with this thread, but I think that we have about finished the discussion. Obviously, some points may never be clarified to the satisfaction of everyone. As a result, unless there is some truly substantive addition, revelation, or correction, let's suspend this discussion. Thanks, J. F. Schwaller -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Jul 27 14:20:10 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:20:10 -0500 Subject: apitzahuacan Message-ID: Gordon, Your example, "There are parallels for toponyms compounded of intransitive verb + -ca:n. For example, A:pitza:huaca:n 'Where the Water is Narrow'." seemed to blow a hole in the idea that -can is only used with preterite nouns. However, Molina has "Pitzauac. cosa delgada, (etc)". As we know, the combining form of these kinds of nouns is produced by changing the final "c" of the preterite to the older "ca", giving "pitzahuaca-". The locative "n" is then suffixed to form the place name. "Pitzahua" is both intransitive and transitive, so a decision would have to be made as to whether "atl" is functioning as an object or an adverb. The sense of apitzahuacan is pretty much the same is cholollan (from "chololli", "salto de agua"): it's the place where the river ravine narrows, producing a gush of water, reminiscent of the "breaking of the water" of the lake of Aztlan, pregnant with the original nahua clan founders. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Wed Jul 29 07:49:15 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:49:15 +0200 Subject: Mexitli / Mecitli vs. the accentuation of Mexico Message-ID: Hi Sharon, I hadn't mentioned this tradition directly because it has, I think, all the hallmarks of a folk etymology. Nice and quaint, though! Sahagun's informants are simply trying to find a way to explain what were probably to them opaque terms: Mexi('tli, pl. Mexi'tin). The glottal stop is hinted at by the variant -tli of Mecitli and by its alleged meaning, 'Maguey Hare', whereas the vowel length of the first syllable is indeterminate as attested, though clearly short in the term for 'maguey'. Even Carochi is not always explicit in giving the first vowel long in the name of the capital and its people, although the evidence suggests he did indeed hear it as such. Since Aztec informants are relating Mexitin and Mexica in Sahagun's encyclopaedia to me- 'maguey' with its short vowel, we are left with the distinct possibility that the vowel in the first syllable of the Aztec capital's name may not have been uniformly, or originally, long. Cf. the variant pronunciations for Canberra, the Australian capital, with the accent on the first syllable (the official pronunciation) or on the second (the intended pronunciation, still widespread today). In the latter instance, the official pronunciation is alleged to go back to the mispronunciation of the name by the woman who officially declared Canberra the capital! By the way, the Spanish pronunciation of the capital, with its accent on the first syllable, probably can be explained by the fact that Spanish speakers found it difficult to pronounce the first vowel long in an unaccented syllable, while accenting the second short vowel. A common enough phenomenon that we ourselves repeat when trying to pronounce Classical Nahuatl. So this would add to the arguments that a common or even dominant pronunciation of the capital in Aztec times was with a long first vowel. I am, incidentally, still surprised when such excellent scholars as Leon-Portilla put the accent on the in the juxtaposition Mexico Tenochtitlan, as I saw again recently. But again, perhaps a thorough study of intonation in Nahuatl dialects -- yet to be made -- would cause us to revise a number of our assumptions derived from prescriptive grammar. Hary matters, nonetheless. Best, Gordon Sharon wrote: > Just to add another dimension to this etymology stew with regard to > the name Mexica (or Mexiti), Sahagun (Book 10, p.189 of the Anderson/ > Dibble 1950-1982 translation of General History of the Things of New > Spain: Florentine Codex) states that: > "One alone is called Mexicatl; many are called Mexica. This comes > from the name Me?itli: me, that is to say, maguey; citli, rabbit. It > should be pronouced Me?icatl. Hence it is a corruption when Mexicatl > is said. > Acoording to tradition, the name of the priest who led the Mexica was > Me?itli. It is said that when he was born they named him Citli. And > they placed him in a maguey leaf, where he grew strong; wherefore was > he named Mecitli. And this one, when he matured, became a priest, a > keeper of the god. It is said that he spoke personally with the > devil, wherefore they revered him greatly; and all obeyed the one by > whome they were led. And since he led his subjects, therefore they > were given the name Mexica." > Best, > Sharon Edgar Greenhill ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Thu Jul 30 09:45:00 2009 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:45:00 +0200 Subject: Apitzahuacan etc.: The case for verb + -ca:n In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi John, You certainly have suggested an interesting alternative analysis for Apitzahuacan. Of course, we're still stuck with Teotihuacan, which is usually interpreted as derived from verbal teo:tihua + -ca:n, ignoring the fact that the name is usually (even fashionably among scholars trying to score a point or two for exactness at conferences!) pronounced Teo:tihua'ca:n with a glottal stop, suggesting the chain -hua'-ca:n. As you know, I am one of the sceptics unconvinced that the name derives from a verb (originally). In this case, I much prefer an original Teo:hua'ca:n (as in present-day Tehuacan). But let's consider some other potential cases for intransitive verb + -ca:n. Dyckerhoff and Prem in their 1990 study list the following: Tlamelahuacan, from tla- + mela:hua 'be(come) straight' Caxahuacan, from caxa:hua 'be(come) thin; recede (as of water)' Apitzahuacan, from a:- 'water' + pitza:hua 'be(come) thin' (to which I would add the meaning 'be(come) narrow') Dykerhoff and Prem do mention the existence of the participial forms mela:huac and pitza:huac, but do not seem to regard them as directly involved in the toponyms. According to Dyckerhoff and Prem, there are also other types of intransitive verb + -ca:n, including: 1. verbs ending in -iuh (from -ihui) and -auh (from -ahui): Yahualiuhcan 'Where It is Round', from yahualihui 'be(come) round' Tzoncoliuhcan 'Where Hair is Curly / Where It is Curly Like Hair', from tzon- 'hair' + co:lihui 'be(come) curled/curly' Itztlacozauhcan 'Where the Obsidian is Yellowy / Where Things Are Yellowy Like Obsidian', from itz- 'obsidian' + tla- + *cozahui 'be(come) yellow' Icxicozauhcan 'Where Feet are Yellowy', from icxi- 'foot' + *cozahui (as above). 2. verbs ending in -uh (from -hui): Yayauhcan 'Where It is Dark', from yaya:hui 'be(come) dark' Cua(uh)tlatlauhcan 'Where Heads (or Trees) are Red' (could this be Ireland?!), from cua:- 'head' or cuauh- 'tree' + *tlatla:hui 'be(come) red' Atlatlauhcan 'Where the Water is Red', from a:- + *tlatla:hui Cuaxoxouhcan 'Where Heads are Blue/Green', from cua:- (as above) + xoxo:hui 'be(come) blue/green'. John, I have to admit, the case for Dyckerhoff and Prem's intransitive verb + -ca:n is weaker -- if we take these examples in isolation -- than the case for participle + -ca:n. Above all, in my opinion, because the derivations require unattested (but, however, solidly reconstructible) colour verbs in two instances (the starred forms). In contrast, we would have the attested participles/adjectives mela:huac, caxa:huac, pitza:huac, yahualiuhqui, co:liuhqui, cozauhqui, yaya:uhqui, tlatla:uhqui, and xoxo:uhqui. But there do remain many instances where an etymology involving a deverbal nominal rather than a verb directly is less plausible. Here are some examples from an inventory in Dyckerhoff and Prem listing cases of transitive verb + -ca:n: 1. Cacalomacan 'Where One Catches Crows', from ca:ca:lo:- 'crow' + ma: 'catch' 2. Nacapahuazcan 'Where One Cooks Meat in a Pot', from naca- 'meat' + pa:huaci 'cook in a pot' 3. Tzacualpacan 'Where One Washes the Pyramid', from tzacual- 'hillock; (temple-)pyramid' + pa:ca 'wash' I rather like their etymology for Tlalocan (yeah, I know, who doesn't have a pet etymology for Tlaloc?!): Tlalocan 'Where He Lies Stretched Out On (or As) the Earth', from tla:l- 'earth' + o 'lie stretched out'. This pertains to the fact that Tlaloc and the subordinate Tlaloque live in, and are associated with, the earth, and that the so-called chacmools in their Nahua form represent Tlaloc stretched out on the earth to receive hearts. I think there are still plenty of details worth discussing here, and in many instances I think the analysis can go either way. Best, Gordon > Gordon, > Your example, "There are parallels for toponyms compounded of > intransitive verb + -ca:n. For example, A:pitza:huaca:n 'Where the > Water is Narrow'." seemed to blow a hole in the idea that -can is only > used with preterite nouns. However, Molina has "Pitzauac. cosa > delgada, (etc)". As we know, the combining form of these kinds of > nouns is produced by changing the final "c" of the preterite to the > older "ca", giving "pitzahuaca-". The locative "n" is then suffixed to > form the place name. "Pitzahua" is both intransitive and transitive, > so a decision would have to be made as to whether "atl" is functioning > as an object or an adverb. > The sense of apitzahuacan is pretty much the same is cholollan (from > "chololli", "salto de agua"): it's the place where the river ravine > narrows, producing a gush of water, reminiscent of the "breaking of > the water" of the lake of Aztlan, pregnant with the original nahua > clan founders. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jul 31 00:24:18 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:24:18 -0500 Subject: Dissimilation: kk > hk Message-ID: Estimados listeros: I had a little time yesterday to put the kk > hk regressive dissimilation rule (Andrews, 2003: 35) to the test, since this remained as an unresolved loose end in a recent thread on this list. The first thing I did was to check the first edition of Andrews? Introduction... (1975) to see if he gave any additional support, beyond the word Me:xihco, and I found that he did, although it?s pretty vague. On page 453 he says ?The shift of /kk/ to /hk/ occurs dialectally.? That pointed me in the direction of modern varieties of Nahuatl. John Sullivan has pointed out in a recent post (July 26, 2009) that ?/kk/ > /hk/ is an absolute rule for Huastecan Nahuatl?, based on his experience with this variety. In Pittman?s grammar of Tetelcingo Nahuatl (1954: 13) we find a description of ?Regressive dissimilation on the pattern C1C1 > hC1 between k- ?it? and a stem-initial k or between other occasional clusters of identical consonants. ? *ni-k(koa)ti: > ni-h(koa)ti: ?I-it(buy)go? D54, ? *ti-k(cua)s-ki > ti-h(cua)s-ki ?we-it(eat)will-pl? D13, ? *xi-k(mat)ta > xi-k(mah)ta ?impa-it(know)dur? W39.? (Pittman's macrons have been changed to colons here.) Guion, Amith, Doty, and Shport (n.d.) register the same change in a phonological discussion of the effects of coda /h/ on tone conditioning in Balsas Nahuatl. This /h/ is described as a glottal fricative (the one represented in IPA as an ?h? with a little hook on top). A comparison of words in the examples with Karttunen?s Analytical Dictionary (1992) shows that the /h/ being discussed is found in the same position of the same words as Karttunen?s ?h? (representing the saltillo /?/) in at least some cases. In endnote 6 Guion et al. state: ?While Ameyaltepec and Oapan have lost non-word-final coda *h (historical *h), /h/ can be found in surface forms in both Oapan and Ameyaltepec. In Oapan and Ameyaltepec geminate /kk/ and /ll/ > /hk/ and /hl/ and in Oapan /w/ > /h/ and /k/ > /h/ before all consonants. However, it is outside the scope of the current paper to investigate the phonetic nature of these /h/ productions, e.g., whether they are breathy or voiceless and whether they affect the F0 of the preceding vowel.? In a text on phonological analysis, published on the web and labeled ?a working, pre-publication draft,? with the request ?Please do not quote,? there is a chapter on dissimilation where an example of /kk/ > /xk/ (where x has its IPA value, a velar fricative, like ?j? in Spanish) is given, from North Puebla Nahuatl. This isn?t exactly the saltillo /?/, with known allophones [?] and [h], but it?s certainly in the neighborhood. Thus examples of Andrews? dissimilation rule /kk/ > /hk/ may be found in three varieties of Nahuatl, showing that it may be considered a widespread morphophonological phenomenon. The fourth case, where /kk/ > /xk/, represents a phonologically similar change. Going back to early colonial central Mexican Nahuatl, John Sullivan?s question remains unanswered: ?Is there any evidence in Classical Nahuatl (besides the possible example of 'mexihco') of a 'c' actually being written as an "h" or converting into the diacritic for a glottal stop, before another /k/?? Saludos cordiales, David Wright References Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, Austin/London, University of Texas Press, 1975. Andrews, J. Richard, Introduction to classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 2003. Guion, Susan G.; Amith, Jonathan D.; Doty, Christopher; Shport, Irina A., ?Word-level prosody in Balsas Nahuatl: the origin, development, and acoustic correlates of tone in a stress accent language,? n.d., in Publications, Susan Guion Anderson (http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~guion/Guion_Publications.htm; access: Jul. 29 2009). Karttunen, Frances, An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, 2a. ed., Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 1992. Pittman, Richard Saunders, ?A grammar of Tetelcingo Nahuatl,? in Language (Linguistic Society of America), vol. 30, no. 1, part 2, Jan.-Mar. 1954, pp. 5-67. Rinc?n, Antonio del, ?Arte mexicana,? facsimile of the 1595 edition, in Obras cl?sicas sobre la lengua n?huatl, digital ed., Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de Le?n-Portilla, editor, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jul 31 03:31:58 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:31:58 -0500 Subject: Dissimilation: kk> hk Message-ID: Antonio del Rinc?n (1998 [1595]) wasn't supposed to be in the list of references in my last post. I was considering mentioning his phonological discussion on the saltillo, which I think means that he was hearing two allophones, probably [?] and [h], of the phoneme /?/. This has some bearing on the examples of kk > hk that I cited, but I left it out in an attempt to keep thinks as simple as possible. Since I mentioned it, here's the quote, respecting the original spelling and punctuation except for restoring the letter 'n' when it has been replaced by a diacritic over the preceding vowel, changing the letter 'u' to a 'v' when it's used as a consonant, and writing the cedilla as a z to avoid web transmission problems. The quote is on folios 63v and 64r (book 5, chapter 1): "[...] Accento del saltillo es, quando la syllaba breve se pronuncia con alguna aspereza como, tlazolli. "Esta aspereza no es del todo .H. hablando propriamente porque en la provincia de Tlaxcalla, y en algunas otras apartadas de Mexico pronuncian con este Spiritu aspero muy affectadamente de manera que no solo es .H. mas aun pronunciada con mucha aspereza y fuerza verbi gracia, tlacohtli, tlahtoani, y por esta causa con mucha razon algunos han llamado, a este espiritu aspero el saltillo, porque ni del todo a de ser .H. como en Tlaxcala ni suspension de la syllaba, como algunos han dicho. "Accento suspenso: porque ese es oficio del accento agudo que es largo y suspende la syllaba, y assi no es mas de una manera de salto, o singulto, que se haze en la syllaba, y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve. [...] "Ultimo nota los caracteres con que conoceremos estos accentos en este arte, el accento agudo desta manera ? el grave ` el moderado ^ el saltillo [mutilated letter 'o' forming an arc like a letter 'u'] el breve tiene por se?al el no tenerla". The printer was unable to include the "accents" or diacritical marks that Rinc?n originally used in his manuscript to mark vowel length and glottal stops, except in the last sentence of the quote, so we read tlazolli without the saltillo at the end of the first syllable, and we're missing some long vowels in his examples. Rinc?n's use of the letter 'h' should be seen in the light of 16th and early 17th century Spanish phonology, in which it still represented an aspiration (Cobarruvias, 1611: f. 459r), unlike today, although some speakers in New Spain during the first decades of the colonial period already pronounced it without aspiration, as revealed by a careful analysis of spelling conventions (Arias, 1997: 29-31). The phrase "y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve" lends support to the rule that long vowels shorten before a saltillo in early colonial central Mexican Nahuatl. As a native speaker of n?huatl, Rinc?n had a better grasp of phonetics than the Spanish grammarians that preceded him, like Olmos and Molina, and his attempt to set the phonological record straight is a watershed in the history of Nahuatl studies. Referencias Arias ?lvarez, Beatriz, El espa?ol de M?xico en el siglo XVI (estudio filol?gico de quince documentos), Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1997. Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebasti?n, ?Tesoro de la lengua castellana, o espa?ola?, facsimile of the 1611 ed., in Lexicograf?a espa?ola peninsular, diccionarios cl?sicos, digital ed., Pedro ?lvarez de Miranda, editor, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Rinc?n, Antonio del, ?Arte mexicana?, facsimile of the 1595 ed., in Obras cl?sicas sobre la lengua n?huatl, digital ed., Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de Le?n-Portilla, editor, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Fri Jul 31 12:57:16 2009 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:57:16 -0400 Subject: Dissimilation: kk> hk In-Reply-To: <000301ca118f$76036550$620a2ff0$@net.mx> Message-ID: Dear David and all, In Balsas Nahuatl from Oapan to the east (and including Tula del Rio, an offshoot of Oapan from mid-nineteenth century) generally one finds C1C1 > hC1 where C1 is C and the subscript number 1 Actually, the rule applies to any homorganic consonants, so that from tsakwa one has o:kitsahkeh, etc. A morphologically conditioned exception concerns nasals, which act differently depending on the morpheme, but note that with object deletion: o:niknek (Ameyaltepec) o:nihnek (Oapan, where k > h / ____ C) one often finds o:hnek (which I write o:h'nek) Or, o:tiktek (Am) o:tihtek (Oapan) can be o:h'tek Thus one finds, from the C1C1 > hC1 change kahli nihkaki Surface [h] in Oapan and Ameyaltepec is representative, usually, of underlying w or k. o:toma:hkeh 'they got fat' (Oapan and Ameyaltepec) kichi:htok 'they are doing it' (Oapan) Anyway, starting in San Miguel Tecuiciapan and spreading east, kk > k ni-k-kaki is realized as nikaki, etc. This does not affect double /l/, which is still hl, as in kahli. k or kw initial verbs with 3sgS and 3sgO are sometimes realized without the overt expression of the object: 'kwa:s for kikwa:s. This deletion is optional, unlike the form nikwa:s, which is not. At some point east of San Miguel and west of Tlapa, the double /l/ is also degeminated to /l/, thus kali 'house' (Note that in Oapan, Ameyaltepec and neighboring villages kali is 'inside the house', prob. from kalitik (kalihtik). Tlapa area also has tlakwali, etc. Now, in the Sierra Norte de Puebla we have forms such as kali The -li absolutive is retained only with monomoraic stems: kali, pili, but not with longer stems, thus ta:l, mo:l, tapalo:l, etc. For kk, usually degeminated to k as in nikaki, etc. Also mika:ka:wal 'orphan'. But, before aspectual markers -keh, -ka, etc. one gets a double kk mikik 'he died' mikkeh 'they died' (in one group of villages mi:k he died and mikkeh 'they died', note the vowel lengthening to maintain a minimum well-formed word. There are also double /tt/ as in kimattok 'he knows it' (mati and durative -tok) As to double nasals, speakers I work with tend to want to write nn, e.g., kininneki 'he wants them' I don't really hear much difference in other speakers, where it sounds more like kinineki. I'll need to research this double nasal. Cheers, Jonathan Quoting David Wright : > Antonio del Rinc?n (1998 [1595]) wasn't supposed to be in the list of > references in my last post. I was considering mentioning his phonological > discussion on the saltillo, which I think means that he was hearing two > allophones, probably [?] and [h], of the phoneme /?/. This has some bearing > on the examples of kk > hk that I cited, but I left it out in an attempt to > keep thinks as simple as possible. > > Since I mentioned it, here's the quote, respecting the original spelling and > punctuation except for restoring the letter 'n' when it has been replaced by > a diacritic over the preceding vowel, changing the letter 'u' to a 'v' when > it's used as a consonant, and writing the cedilla as a z to avoid web > transmission problems. The quote is on folios 63v and 64r (book 5, chapter > 1): > > "[...] Accento del saltillo es, quando la syllaba breve se pronuncia con > alguna aspereza como, tlazolli. > "Esta aspereza no es del todo .H. hablando propriamente porque en la > provincia de Tlaxcalla, y en algunas otras apartadas de Mexico pronuncian > con este Spiritu aspero muy affectadamente de manera que no solo es .H. mas > aun pronunciada con mucha aspereza y fuerza verbi gracia, tlacohtli, > tlahtoani, y por esta causa con mucha razon algunos han llamado, a este > espiritu aspero el saltillo, porque ni del todo a de ser .H. como en > Tlaxcala ni suspension de la syllaba, como algunos han dicho. > "Accento suspenso: porque ese es oficio del accento agudo que es largo y > suspende la syllaba, y assi no es mas de una manera de salto, o singulto, > que se haze en la syllaba, y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve. > [...] > "Ultimo nota los caracteres con que conoceremos estos accentos en este > arte, el accento agudo desta manera ? el grave ` el moderado ^ el saltillo > [mutilated letter 'o' forming an arc like a letter 'u'] el breve tiene por > se?al el no tenerla". > > The printer was unable to include the "accents" or diacritical marks that > Rinc?n originally used in his manuscript to mark vowel length and glottal > stops, except in the last sentence of the quote, so we read tlazolli without > the saltillo at the end of the first syllable, and we're missing some long > vowels in his examples. > > Rinc?n's use of the letter 'h' should be seen in the light of 16th and early > 17th century Spanish phonology, in which it still represented an aspiration > (Cobarruvias, 1611: f. 459r), unlike today, although some speakers in New > Spain during the first decades of the colonial period already pronounced it > without aspiration, as revealed by a careful analysis of spelling > conventions (Arias, 1997: 29-31). > > The phrase "y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve" lends support to > the rule that long vowels shorten before a saltillo in early colonial > central Mexican Nahuatl. As a native speaker of n?huatl, Rinc?n had a better > grasp of phonetics than the Spanish grammarians that preceded him, like > Olmos and Molina, and his attempt to set the phonological record straight is > a watershed in the history of Nahuatl studies. > > Referencias > > Arias ?lvarez, Beatriz, El espa?ol de M?xico en el siglo XVI (estudio > filol?gico de quince documentos), Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones > Filol?gicas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1997. > > Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebasti?n, ?Tesoro de la lengua castellana, o espa?ola?, > facsimile of the 1611 ed., in Lexicograf?a espa?ola peninsular, diccionarios > cl?sicos, digital ed., Pedro ?lvarez de Miranda, editor, Madrid, Fundaci?n > Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. > > Rinc?n, Antonio del, ?Arte mexicana?, facsimile of the 1595 ed., in Obras > cl?sicas sobre la lengua n?huatl, digital ed., Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de > Le?n-Portilla, editor, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre > Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Jonathan D. Amith Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University of Chicago (O) 717-337-6795 (H) 717-338-1255 Mail to: Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College Campus Box 412 300 N. Washington Street Gettysburg, PA 17325 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jul 31 16:23:10 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:23:10 -0400 Subject: Dissimilation: kk> hk Message-ID: Thanks to David and Jonathan for their digging into /kk/ going to /hk/. Things are coming into focus with the surfacing of some items. Gordon's and John's continued wrestling with "King -ca:n" is very interesting and will surely be productive. I'm curious about Joe's experience with these two items, including expereience in the field, as well as that of Bill Mills, if he has looked into either of these ideas and if in fact he is a member of this discussion group. Now, ref: A:pitzhuaca:n This sounds purely intransitive to me, in other words, this is a place where things (rocks, natural features) narrow "in a watery way". The place names seems altogether as intransitive as, say, Tzoncoliuhcan, which Gordon offered yesterday, "where 'things' are curled up in a hair way" The transitive interpretation would be quite unusual for A:pitzahuaca:n, as we wouldn't really have a dummy subject for transitive "pitzahua," as we can at least posit for the transitive verb examples of similar place names offered yesterday by Gordon. Now, in closing, and perhaps too simplistically--but like Carochi-- I've always thought that these -ca:n place names were built on the "preterite" singular form of the verb, i.e., -pitzahuac + -ca:n -> -pitzahuacca:n -> -pitzahuaca:n . Tlaxtlahui, Michael Quoting jonathan.amith at yale.edu: > Dear David and all, > > In Balsas Nahuatl from Oapan to the east (and including Tula del Rio, an > offshoot of Oapan from mid-nineteenth century) generally one finds > > C1C1 > hC1 where C1 is C and the subscript number 1 > > Actually, the rule applies to any homorganic consonants, so that from > tsakwa one > has o:kitsahkeh, etc. > > A morphologically conditioned exception concerns nasals, which act > differently > depending on the morpheme, but note that with object deletion: > > o:niknek (Ameyaltepec) o:nihnek (Oapan, where k > h / ____ C) one > often finds > > o:hnek (which I write o:h'nek) > > Or, o:tiktek (Am) o:tihtek (Oapan) can be o:h'tek > > Thus one finds, from the C1C1 > hC1 change > > kahli > nihkaki > > Surface [h] in Oapan and Ameyaltepec is representative, usually, of > underlying w > or k. > > o:toma:hkeh 'they got fat' (Oapan and Ameyaltepec) > kichi:htok 'they are doing it' (Oapan) > > Anyway, starting in San Miguel Tecuiciapan and spreading east, kk > k > > ni-k-kaki is realized as nikaki, etc. > This does not affect double /l/, which is still hl, as in kahli. k or > kw initial > verbs with 3sgS and 3sgO are sometimes realized without the overt > expression of > the object: 'kwa:s for kikwa:s. This deletion is optional, unlike the form > nikwa:s, which is not. > > At some point east of San Miguel and west of Tlapa, the double /l/ is also > degeminated to /l/, thus kali 'house' (Note that in Oapan, Ameyaltepec and > neighboring villages kali is 'inside the house', prob. from kalitik > (kalihtik). > Tlapa area also has tlakwali, etc. > > Now, in the Sierra Norte de Puebla we have forms such as > kali > The -li absolutive is retained only with monomoraic stems: kali, > pili, but not > with longer stems, thus ta:l, mo:l, tapalo:l, etc. > > For kk, usually degeminated to k as in nikaki, etc. Also mika:ka:wal > 'orphan'. > But, before aspectual markers -keh, -ka, etc. one gets a double kk > > mikik 'he died' mikkeh 'they died' (in one group of villages mi:k he > died and > mikkeh 'they died', note the vowel lengthening to maintain a minimum > well-formed word. > > There are also double /tt/ as in kimattok 'he knows it' (mati and > durative -tok) > > As to double nasals, speakers I work with tend to want to write nn, e.g., > kininneki 'he wants them' I don't really hear much difference in other > speakers, where it sounds more like kinineki. I'll need to research > this double > nasal. > > Cheers, Jonathan > > > > > Quoting David Wright : > >> Antonio del Rinc?n (1998 [1595]) wasn't supposed to be in the list of >> references in my last post. I was considering mentioning his phonological >> discussion on the saltillo, which I think means that he was hearing two >> allophones, probably [?] and [h], of the phoneme /?/. This has some bearing >> on the examples of kk > hk that I cited, but I left it out in an attempt to >> keep thinks as simple as possible. >> >> Since I mentioned it, here's the quote, respecting the original spelling and >> punctuation except for restoring the letter 'n' when it has been replaced by >> a diacritic over the preceding vowel, changing the letter 'u' to a 'v' when >> it's used as a consonant, and writing the cedilla as a z to avoid web >> transmission problems. The quote is on folios 63v and 64r (book 5, chapter >> 1): >> >> "[...] Accento del saltillo es, quando la syllaba breve se pronuncia con >> alguna aspereza como, tlazolli. >> "Esta aspereza no es del todo .H. hablando propriamente porque en la >> provincia de Tlaxcalla, y en algunas otras apartadas de Mexico pronuncian >> con este Spiritu aspero muy affectadamente de manera que no solo es .H. mas >> aun pronunciada con mucha aspereza y fuerza verbi gracia, tlacohtli, >> tlahtoani, y por esta causa con mucha razon algunos han llamado, a este >> espiritu aspero el saltillo, porque ni del todo a de ser .H. como en >> Tlaxcala ni suspension de la syllaba, como algunos han dicho. >> "Accento suspenso: porque ese es oficio del accento agudo que es largo y >> suspende la syllaba, y assi no es mas de una manera de salto, o singulto, >> que se haze en la syllaba, y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve. >> [...] >> "Ultimo nota los caracteres con que conoceremos estos accentos en este >> arte, el accento agudo desta manera ? el grave ` el moderado ^ el saltillo >> [mutilated letter 'o' forming an arc like a letter 'u'] el breve tiene por >> se?al el no tenerla". >> >> The printer was unable to include the "accents" or diacritical marks that >> Rinc?n originally used in his manuscript to mark vowel length and glottal >> stops, except in the last sentence of the quote, so we read tlazolli without >> the saltillo at the end of the first syllable, and we're missing some long >> vowels in his examples. >> >> Rinc?n's use of the letter 'h' should be seen in the light of 16th and early >> 17th century Spanish phonology, in which it still represented an aspiration >> (Cobarruvias, 1611: f. 459r), unlike today, although some speakers in New >> Spain during the first decades of the colonial period already pronounced it >> without aspiration, as revealed by a careful analysis of spelling >> conventions (Arias, 1997: 29-31). >> >> The phrase "y esto solamente se halla en la syllaba breve" lends support to >> the rule that long vowels shorten before a saltillo in early colonial >> central Mexican Nahuatl. As a native speaker of n?huatl, Rinc?n had a better >> grasp of phonetics than the Spanish grammarians that preceded him, like >> Olmos and Molina, and his attempt to set the phonological record straight is >> a watershed in the history of Nahuatl studies. >> >> Referencias >> >> Arias ?lvarez, Beatriz, El espa?ol de M?xico en el siglo XVI (estudio >> filol?gico de quince documentos), Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones >> Filol?gicas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1997. >> >> Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebasti?n, ?Tesoro de la lengua castellana, o espa?ola?, >> facsimile of the 1611 ed., in Lexicograf?a espa?ola peninsular, diccionarios >> cl?sicos, digital ed., Pedro ?lvarez de Miranda, editor, Madrid, Fundaci?n >> Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. >> >> Rinc?n, Antonio del, ?Arte mexicana?, facsimile of the 1595 ed., in Obras >> cl?sicas sobre la lengua n?huatl, digital ed., Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de >> Le?n-Portilla, editor, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre >> Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > -- > Jonathan D. Amith > Director: Mexico-North Program on Indigenous Languages > Research Affiliate: Gettysburg College; Yale University; University > of Chicago > (O) 717-337-6795 > (H) 717-338-1255 > Mail to: > Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology > Gettysburg College > Campus Box 412 > 300 N. Washington Street > Gettysburg, PA 17325 > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jul 31 19:28:23 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:28:23 -0500 Subject: Dissimilation: kk > hk Message-ID: Thanks, Jonathan. That's all very interesting. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From macehual08 at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 21:12:43 2009 From: macehual08 at gmail.com (macehual08 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:12:43 -0400 Subject: "Nahuatl" and/as "dance"? Message-ID: I just came across a definition in "Oxford Music Online" (in an article on Mexican music by E. Thomas Stanford and Arturo Chamorro) that defines Nahuatl as "sonorous, audible, council; law" AND "to dance embraced at the neck." Is anyone familiar with the second definition? Nahuatl as a "dance embraced at the neck"? I don't see this definition in Molina, Sim?on, Karttunen and wonder if anyone knows where this association might come from? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl