From oudyk at hotmail.com Tue Sep 1 13:18:04 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:18:04 +0000 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ¿Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ¡Conéctalos ya! _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Sep 1 18:04:02 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:04:02 -0500 Subject: bifrasismos, etc. Message-ID: Listeros, ¿Alguien puede recomendar algunos artículos, preferiblemente en español (también en inglés), sobre el tema de los bifrasismos, tanto en el náhuatl antiguo como en el moderno? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (en EU) Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Tue Sep 1 20:31:22 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 20:31:22 +0000 Subject: bifrasismos, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sí bifrasismo es lo mismo que difrasismo, pues si. La tesis doctoral de Mercedes Montes de Oca, "Los difrasismos en el nahuatl del siglo XVI", UNAM, 2000 o un artículo de la misma autora "Los difrasismos: ¿Núcleos conceptuales mesoamericanos?" en el libro "La metáfora en Mesoamérica". Mercedes Montes de Oca (ed.), Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas, UNAM, 2004, pp. 225-251. Un abrazo, Michel From: idiez at me.com To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:04:02 -0500 Subject: [Nahuat-l] bifrasismos, etc. Listeros, ¿Alguien puede recomendar algunos artículos, preferiblemente en español (también en inglés), sobre el tema de los bifrasismos, tanto en el náhuatl antiguo como en el moderno? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (en EU) Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gvaldana at yahoo.com Tue Sep 1 20:56:30 2009 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com (Gerardo Aldana) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ________________________________ ¿Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ¡Conéctalos ya! ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Tue Sep 1 22:11:29 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 22:11:29 +0000 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: <298892.81007.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Gerardo, It's one thing what people may think and another what historians feed them. Yes, I agree that there are many ideas out there in society with which historians may have problems because they are not historically accurate. This may or may not be a problem. The examples you give (Galileo and Columbus) are quite innocent, because they don't have a particular importance in our present day society. In fact, I would be happy if everybody would know who Galileo was. But when historians write, or express in any other way, things that are not historically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's their job to know these things. Now, I think I made it clear in my message that I don't know up to what point the text reflects what Carrasco may have said or what the reporter may have understood. Rather, my problem is with the contents of the text which contains many mistakes, in the sense of historically inaccurate. Some people have a problem with the use of the word 'error' in historical studies. But there are, in fact, errors. Saying that Hitler died in 1946 is an error. Some people say that man never set foot on the moon, but I think it's pretty much accepted that he did and I would say that idea would be 'erroneous'. Historiography is full of facts and errors. Some of these one may discuss and others we can't for whatever reason. Of course, historiography is controlled by those in power and so 'errors' may become accepted as historically accurate. North Korean historiography is doing a good job at this at the moment. But I think we all know that it's just a matter of time before these errors will be corrected. In this sense, to claim that "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue.", is historically inaccurate according to the historical sources we have. The claim is based on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and concerns Cholula. The people who come to the rescue are those from Chicomoztoc and although that place has many other names, Aztlan is not one of them. One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around. And even less so in regard to the historical sources from Puebla like the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan and the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca. I do invite you or anybody else to read the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca as it's one of the most incredible sources we have. One may discuss the 'historical accuracy' of the source in regard to what we consider 'accuracy' in 'Western' historiography, but that would be a different, and interesting, discussion. That's, however, not what happens in the text which supposedly represents Carrasco's words. It says something that is clearly based on an historical source, while that source, or any other, does not contain that information. That is why I used the words 'mistake' and 'erroneous'. One may claim that the English translation for 'mesa' is 'chair' and maybe even convince some people, but in the end it's a mistake. Un abrazo (a discussion does not mean one cannot be friends or collegues), Michel Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ¿Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ¡Conéctalos ya! See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed Sep 2 00:15:19 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 19:15:19 -0500 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Message-ID: I just skimmed through several chapters in the book *Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2* and there doesn't seem to be anything there about Chicomoztoc being in present U.S. territory. It looks like the reporter took liberties with Carrasco's words in the article that started this thread. Anybody who has taken a good look at Yutonahuan linguistics can see that Nahuatl is part of the southern branch of that language family, located in Mexico (except for some Pima-Papago who spill over the border into Arizona). Nahuatl is much closer to related languages in the southern part of the Southern Yutonahuan territory (basically western Mexico), like Caxcan and Pochuteco, than to Pima-Papago. The northern branch of Yutonahuan is entirely in the U.S. The split between these two branches is very ancient, probably around the third milennium B.C., and the Nahua migrations were probably much later, after the collapse of the Teotihuacan political system around A.D. 600. The "Aztec" migrations recorded in 16th century pictorial and alphabetical documents were the last of a long series of Nahua migrations and can be dated historically to the 11th and 12th centuries A.D. All of this points to a Nahua homeland in western Mexico, probably in or near Jalisco, out of which there were several migrations over a period of around 600 years (A.D. 600-1200): first to coastal Oaxaca and Guerrero, then through central Mexico into eastern and southeastern Mesoamerica, and lastly into central Mexico. This hypothetical reconstruction based on linguistic migration theory and glottochronology (imprecise, yes, but useful for a blurry overall vision) seems to hold up when confronted with the archaeological, bioanthropological, and documental evidence. When you see a group origin in a cave, especially when this is followed by a stay in Teotihuacan or Tollan, you're probably looking at a manifestation of the generic Central Mexican cosmogonical narrative, adopted and adapted by diverse linguistic groups like the Nahua, the Totonac, and the Otomi. At some point in each story you can usually detect a blurry border (like Jan Vansina's "floating gap" in west African oral traditions) between this symbolic, primordial timescape and a more realistic account of events unfolding in a recognizable geopolitical landscape. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 01:39:49 2009 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 18:39:49 -0700 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: <298892.81007.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello Gerardo, I suspect the connection Davíd sought to point out between the Cuauhtinchan 2 and Chicanos is a literary one: the migration narrative of people who have migrated and faced considerable adversity in establishing a new home is an old one in Mesoamerica. Hence his interest in the Chicano invocation of Aztlan. But then that simple, elegant message went through the journalistic meat-grinder and came out as something incoherent.   But, on the other hand, I don’t know what to make of Davíd’s comments about Aztlan in the document he has studied. As Michel already pointed out, Aztlan appears nowhere in the Cuauhtinchan 2. There is no depiction or description of “the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue” in the Cuahtinchan 2 or any related documentation. The comments attributed to Davíd are indeed in error. Davíd (or the reporter) must have confounded the Chichimeca with people from Aztlan and therefore confused Chicomoztoc with Aztlan as Michel suggests.   The broader question of what is an “error” in the interpretation of history is a thorny issue. Still, I think few would dispute that a professional historian would need to offer some very compelling reasons to advance an interpretation which has zero evidence in the sources, and indeed is even contradicted by them. I would go even further to say that the historian has an obligation to challenge such unsupported interpretations, whether in the academic or popular domains. I think many historians would agree, which is why many have criticized, say, certain Hollywood movies as historically inaccurate. And, of course, just because a particular understanding of the past is popular does not mean that historians should not criticize it if they have good reason to think it is erroneous.   I confess I don’t get what you’re driving at with the issue of Greek-inspired architecture in Washington. Surely if a Harvard historian said the ancient Greeks built the Lincoln Monument (or the ancient Egyptians built the Washington Monument), I would expect that historian wouldn’t be complimented on his interesting alternative hypothesis, but ridiculed, and rightly so.   Saludos, Michael --- On Tue, 9/1/09, Gerardo Aldana wrote: From: Gerardo Aldana Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: "Michel Oudijk" , tezozomoc at hotmail.com, nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 4:56 PM Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent?  To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet.  As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion?  Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else?  Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect.  But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY #yiv1198876815 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv1198876815 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} Dear all,   I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information.   Un abrazo,   Michel   Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is  'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ¿Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ¡Conéctalos ya! See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gvaldana at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 04:48:02 2009 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com (Gerardo Aldana) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:48:02 -0700 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Michel, I can easily see how this can very rapidly go “off-topic” for the list, and I’m fine with that. But while I have the floor… The point I’m trying to make is about how identities are constructed and at what level. The U.S., for instance, has built a substantial amount of its identity on exaggerations or outright misrepresentations of historical events. The fact that you can believe that common contemporary perspectives on Galileo or Columbus are in any way “innocent” demonstrates precisely how far the intellectual/cultural movement behind their interpretation has pervaded contemporary “mainstream” culture. (These (and other) misrepresentations resulted from the nineteenth and early twentieth century battles over the respective places of religion and science. (For a well-written and entertaining account, see Jeffrey Russell’s “Inventing the Flat Earth”.) They were far from innocent and they continue to inform our common sense concerning important issues that we confront everyday (e.g. from stem cell research to the disposal of nuclear waste, global warming, etc).) So my point wasn’t about the relative “innocence” of an “historical error;” my point was about the role of scholarship within larger cultural phenomena. Chicana/o culture/movement(s) is(/are) about much more than pinpointing (or not) Aztlan, just as the U.S. is about much more than whether its architects have any reason to incorporate Greek architecture into its public monuments, etc., etc. But do academics have the right to police this? Certainly, we are charged with organizing existing and generating new knowledge according to specific methods, but that does not give us the authority to evaluate uses of such knowledge outside of our own self-imposed limitations. And this, I think, is where our opinions meet. If I may generalize your statement: ‘when we as scholars write, or express in any other way, things that are not academically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's our job to know these things.’ I would contend only that by the same token, we should recognize the limits of scholarly work. Chican at s should be afforded as much flexibility in “constructing identities” beyond academia as any other group. Now, as I mentioned, because I haven’t read the book yet, I have to leave the door open as to whether Carrasco might be making such arguments under an academic banner, or whether, as you suggest, this is simply a problem of “translation” by the reporter. (And I have to confess that professionally, my current opinions on Aztlan are probably not far at all from your own, but) I’m happy to make that call after I’ve read it. Best, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: gvaldana at yahoo.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:11:29 PM Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear Gerardo, It's one thing what people may think and another what historians feed them. Yes, I agree that there are many ideas out there in society with which historians may have problems because they are not historically accurate. This may or may not be a problem. The examples you give (Galileo and Columbus) are quite innocent, because they don't have a particular importance in our present day society. In fact, I would be happy if everybody would know who Galileo was. But when historians write, or express in any other way, things that are not historically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's their job to know these things. Now, I think I made it clear in my message that I don't know up to what point the text reflects what Carrasco may have said or what the reporter may have understood. Rather, my problem is with the contents of the text which contains many mistakes, in the sense of historically inaccurate. Some people have a problem with the use of the word 'error' in historical studies. But there are, in fact, errors. Saying that Hitler died in 1946 is an error. Some people say that man never set foot on the moon, but I think it's pretty much accepted that he did and I would say that idea would be 'erroneous'. Historiography is full of facts and errors. Some of these one may discuss and others we can't for whatever reason. Of course, historiography is controlled by those in power and so 'errors' may become accepted as historically accurate. North Korean historiography is doing a good job at this at the moment. But I think we all know that it's just a matter of time before these errors will be corrected. In this sense, to claim that "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue.", is historically inaccurate according to the historical sources we have. The claim is based on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and concerns Cholula. The people who come to the rescue are those from Chicomoztoc and although that place has many other names, Aztlan is not one of them. One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around. And even less so in regard to the historical sources from Puebla like the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan and the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca. I do invite you or anybody else to read the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca as it's one of the most incredible sources we have. One may discuss the 'historical accuracy' of the source in regard to what we consider 'accuracy' in 'Western' historiography, but that would be a different, and interesting, discussion. That's, however, not what happens in the text which supposedly represents Carrasco's words. It says something that is clearly based on an historical source, while that source, or any other, does not contain that information. That is why I used the words 'mistake' and 'erroneous'. One may claim that the English translation for 'mesa' is 'chair' and maybe even convince some people, but in the end it's a mistake. Un abrazo (a discussion does not mean one cannot be friends or collegues), Michel ________________________________ Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ________________________________ ¿Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ¡Conéctalos ya! ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Wed Sep 2 12:43:02 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 12:43:02 +0000 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: <200284.39527.qm@web65408.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Gerardo, Sometimes it's nice to see how during a discussion people turn out to have very similar opinions. But the process makes us think about matters and often results in a clearer picture. I couldn't agree more with you. At no point do I want to control or impose my or any other academic opinion onto any social movement, nor do I think we necessarily have such influence. Although at the same I do hope, and I think any scholar does, that bits of the results of our work trickle into "mainstream" society. Un abrazo, Michel Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:48:02 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I can easily see how this can very rapidly go “off-topic” for the list, and I’m fine with that. But while I have the floor… The point I’m trying to make is about how identities are constructed and at what level. The U.S., for instance, has built a substantial amount of its identity on exaggerations or outright misrepresentations of historical events. The fact that you can believe that common contemporary perspectives on Galileo or Columbus are in any way “innocent” demonstrates precisely how far the intellectual/cultural movement behind their interpretation has pervaded contemporary “mainstream” culture. (These (and other) misrepresentations resulted from the nineteenth and early twentieth century battles over the respective places of religion and science. (For a well-written and entertaining account, see Jeffrey Russell’s “Inventing the Flat Earth”.) They were far from innocent and they continue to inform our common sense concerning important issues that we confront everyday (e.g. from stem cell research to the disposal of nuclear waste, global warming, etc).) So my point wasn’t about the relative “innocence” of an “historical error;” my point was about the role of scholarship within larger cultural phenomena. Chicana/o culture/movement(s) is(/are) about much more than pinpointing (or not) Aztlan, just as the U.S. is about much more than whether its architects have any reason to incorporate Greek architecture into its public monuments, etc., etc. But do academics have the right to police this? Certainly, we are charged with organizing existing and generating new knowledge according to specific methods, but that does not give us the authority to evaluate uses of such knowledge outside of our own self-imposed limitations. And this, I think, is where our opinions meet. If I may generalize your statement: ‘when we as scholars write, or express in any other way, things that are not academically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's our job to know these things.’ I would contend only that by the same token, we should recognize the limits of scholarly work. Chican at s should be afforded as much flexibility in “constructing identities” beyond academia as any other group. Now, as I mentioned, because I haven’t read the book yet, I have to leave the door open as to whether Carrasco might be making such arguments under an academic banner, or whether, as you suggest, this is simply a problem of “translation” by the reporter. (And I have to confess that professionally, my current opinions on Aztlan are probably not far at all from your own, but) I’m happy to make that call after I’ve read it. Best, Gerardo From: Michel Oudijk To: gvaldana at yahoo.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:11:29 PM Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear Gerardo, It's one thing what people may think and another what historians feed them. Yes, I agree that there are many ideas out there in society with which historians may have problems because they are not historically accurate. This may or may not be a problem. The examples you give (Galileo and Columbus) are quite innocent, because they don't have a particular importance in our present day society. In fact, I would be happy if everybody would know who Galileo was. But when historians write, or express in any other way, things that are not historically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's their job to know these things. Now, I think I made it clear in my message that I don't know up to what point the text reflects what Carrasco may have said or what the reporter may have understood. Rather, my problem is with the contents of the text which contains many mistakes, in the sense of historically inaccurate. Some people have a problem with the use of the word 'error' in historical studies. But there are, in fact, errors. Saying that Hitler died in 1946 is an error. Some people say that man never set foot on the moon, but I think it's pretty much accepted that he did and I would say that idea would be 'erroneous'. Historiography is full of facts and errors. Some of these one may discuss and others we can't for whatever reason. Of course, historiography is controlled by those in power and so 'errors' may become accepted as historically accurate. North Korean historiography is doing a good job at this at the moment. But I think we all know that it's just a matter of time before these errors will be corrected. In this sense, to claim that "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue.", is historically inaccurate according to the historical sources we have. The claim is based on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and concerns Cholula. The people who come to the rescue are those from Chicomoztoc and although that place has many other names, Aztlan is not one of them. One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around. And even less so in regard to the historical sources from Puebla like the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan and the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca. I do invite you or anybody else to read the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca as it's one of the most incredible sources we have. One may discuss the 'historical accuracy' of the source in regard to what we consider 'accuracy' in 'Western' historiography, but that would be a different, and interesting, discussion. That's, however, not what happens in the text which supposedly represents Carrasco's words. It says something that is clearly based on an historical source, while that source, or any other, does not contain that information. That is why I used the words 'mistake' and 'erroneous'. One may claim that the English translation for 'mesa' is 'chair' and maybe even convince some people, but in the end it's a mistake. Un abrazo (a discussion does not mean one cannot be friends or collegues), Michel Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ¿Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ¡Conéctalos ya! See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger _________________________________________________________________ What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From b.leeming at rivers.org Wed Sep 2 16:53:00 2009 From: b.leeming at rivers.org (Leeming, Ben) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 12:53:00 -0400 Subject: Carrasco's Response Message-ID: Dear Colleagues: My former student Ben Leeming alerted me to the conversations about the article that appeared in several places in which I'm quoted about the relationship of the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan #2 and the Chicano movement. I've read your comments and find them stimulating and important and will try, as soon as classes get going here at Harvard, to subscribe to the Nahuatl-L list. As you've figured out, there was a fair amount of mis-communication between me and this journalist. When I was saying "Some Chicanos interpret the location of Aztlan or images in the Mapa ....such and such a way," he took it as either me saying that I UNDERSTAND matters this way.... or as some kind of claim to historical fact. I never said that Aztlan or Chicomoztoc IS in the southwest, except in symbolic claims by some Latinos. I'm not just blaming him-or me-it's the mode of communication-on the phone or quick written messages-that led to some mis interpretation of what I was saying. I never got a follow up from him or saw the article before it was published. Like H.B. Nicholson used to say, "I'll try not to spread to much confusion around." If we can put that article aside and focus back on the matters Michel, Gerardo, David and Michael have raised , perhaps we can learn more about the differences, similarities and conflations of Chicomoztoc and Aztlan? I've looked at this matter for some time now and have come to believe they both point to a more underlying pattern of orientations in many parts of Mesoamerica, namely the power and role of the 'altepetl'. As Lopez Austin writes about it in the third chapter of Tamoanchan/Tlalocan: Places of Mist. Michel makes some pointed comments and he's right, I think, about the Historia Tolteca Chichimeca which our group of 15 scholars depended on a lot during our examination of the MC2 Codex. Yet there are many, many images and events in the MC2 that are not covered in the HTC and invite an even broader conversation about these places of orientation, origin and pilgrimage. Michel, who knows a lot about the matter also writes "One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around." I wonder about this in terms of 'from whose point of view' doesn't it work that Chicomoztoc is not also in some cases an Aztlan? Of course I'm an historian of religions trained in looking at symbolic and sacred places in various religious traditions so our disciplines may also play a role here. Thanks for your comments thus far and I'll look forward to other comments. Saludos David Carrasco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gvaldana at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 17:14:07 2009 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com (Gerardo Aldana) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 10:14:07 -0700 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Michel, I totally agree... and I'll also admit to being perhaps a bit too hasty in questioning the scope of your "abrazo." Cuidate, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: gvaldana at yahoo.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 5:43:02 AM Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear Gerardo, Sometimes it's nice to see how during a discussion people turn out to have very similar opinions. But the process makes us think about matters and often results in a clearer picture. I couldn't agree more with you. At no point do I want to control or impose my or any other academic opinion onto any social movement, nor do I think we necessarily have such influence. Although at the same I do hope, and I think any scholar does, that bits of the results of our work trickle into "mainstream" society. Un abrazo, Michel ________________________________ Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:48:02 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I can easily see how this can very rapidly go “off-topic” for the list, and I’m fine with that. But while I have the floor… The point I’m trying to make is about how identities are constructed and at what level. The U.S., for instance, has built a substantial amount of its identity on exaggerations or outright misrepresentations of historical events. The fact that you can believe that common contemporary perspectives on Galileo or Columbus are in any way “innocent” demonstrates precisely how far the intellectual/cultural movement behind their interpretation has pervaded contemporary “mainstream” culture. (These (and other) misrepresentations resulted from the nineteenth and early twentieth century battles over the respective places of religion and science. (For a well-written and entertaining account, see Jeffrey Russell’s “Inventing the Flat Earth”.) They were far from innocent and they continue to inform our common sense concerning important issues that we confront everyday (e.g. from stem cell research to the disposal of nuclear waste, global warming, etc).) So my point wasn’t about the relative “innocence” of an “historical error;” my point was about the role of scholarship within larger cultural phenomena. Chicana/o culture/movement(s) is(/are) about much more than pinpointing (or not) Aztlan, just as the U.S. is about much more than whether its architects have any reason to incorporate Greek architecture into its public monuments, etc., etc. But do academics have the right to police this? Certainly, we are charged with organizing existing and generating new knowledge according to specific methods, but that does not give us the authority to evaluate uses of such knowledge outside of our own self-imposed limitations. And this, I think, is where our opinions meet. If I may generalize your statement: ‘when we as scholars write, or express in any other way, things that are not academically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's our job to know these things.’ I would contend only that by the same token, we should recognize the limits of scholarly work. Chican at s should be afforded as much flexibility in “constructing identities” beyond academia as any other group. Now, as I mentioned, because I haven’t read the book yet, I have to leave the door open as to whether Carrasco might be making such arguments under an academic banner, or whether, as you suggest, this is simply a problem of “translation” by the reporter. (And I have to confess that professionally, my current opinions on Aztlan are probably not far at all from your own, but) I’m happy to make that call after I’ve read it. Best, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: gvaldana at yahoo.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:11:29 PM Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear Gerardo, It's one thing what people may think and another what historians feed them. Yes, I agree that there are many ideas out there in society with which historians may have problems because they are not historically accurate. This may or may not be a problem. The examples you give (Galileo and Columbus) are quite innocent, because they don't have a particular importance in our present day society. In fact, I would be happy if everybody would know who Galileo was. But when historians write, or express in any other way, things that are not historically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's their job to know these things. Now, I think I made it clear in my message that I don't know up to what point the text reflects what Carrasco may have said or what the reporter may have understood. Rather, my problem is with the contents of the text which contains many mistakes, in the sense of historically inaccurate. Some people have a problem with the use of the word 'error' in historical studies. But there are, in fact, errors. Saying that Hitler died in 1946 is an error. Some people say that man never set foot on the moon, but I think it's pretty much accepted that he did and I would say that idea would be 'erroneous'. Historiography is full of facts and errors. Some of these one may discuss and others we can't for whatever reason. Of course, historiography is controlled by those in power and so 'errors' may become accepted as historically accurate. North Korean historiography is doing a good job at this at the moment. But I think we all know that it's just a matter of time before these errors will be corrected. In this sense, to claim that "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue.", is historically inaccurate according to the historical sources we have. The claim is based on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and concerns Cholula. The people who come to the rescue are those from Chicomoztoc and although that place has many other names, Aztlan is not one of them. One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around. And even less so in regard to the historical sources from Puebla like the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan and the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca. I do invite you or anybody else to read the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca as it's one of the most incredible sources we have. One may discuss the 'historical accuracy' of the source in regard to what we consider 'accuracy' in 'Western' historiography, but that would be a different, and interesting, discussion. That's, however, not what happens in the text which supposedly represents Carrasco's words. It says something that is clearly based on an historical source, while that source, or any other, does not contain that information. That is why I used the words 'mistake' and 'erroneous'. One may claim that the English translation for 'mesa' is 'chair' and maybe even convince some people, but in the end it's a mistake. Un abrazo (a discussion does not mean one cannot be friends or collegues), Michel ________________________________ Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ________________________________ ¿Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ¡Conéctalos ya! ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger ________________________________ What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Sep 3 18:30:54 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 14:30:54 -0400 Subject: Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl, vol. 39 Message-ID: ESTUDIOS DE CULTURA NAHUATL PUBLICACION ANUAL DEL INSTITUTO DE INVESTIGACIONES HISTORICAS DE LA UNIVERSIDAD NACIONAL AUTONOMA DE MEXICO Editor: Miguel Leon-Portilla Editores asociados: Jose Ruben Romero Galvan y Salvador Reyes Equiguas SUMARIO Volumen 39. Nahuatlismos: registro de una cultura, pp. 13-15. Mitologia, mitografia y mitokinesia. Una secuencia narrativa de la peregrinacion de los aztecas, by Patrick Johansson K., pp. 17-50. Fama, honra y renombre entre los nahuas, by Marc Thouvenot y Jose Ruben Romero Galvan, pp. 51-64. Tula Xicocotitlan: historia y arqueologia, by Miguel Leon-Portilla, pp. 65-86. Los cantos zapotecos de Villa Aha: dos generos rituales indigenas y sus correspondencias con los Cantares mexicanos, by David Tavarez, pp. 87-126. Tecnologia alimentaria prehispanica, by Janet Long, pp. 127-136. El trono del aguila y el jaguar. Una revision a la figura de Moctezuma II, by Isabel Bueno Bravo, pp. 137-166. El Arte de La lengua mexicana y castellana de fray Alonso Molina: morfologia y composicion, Asencion Hernandez de Leon-Portilla, pp. 167-206. Sobre el origen del lenguaje y la diversidad lingiiistica: 1a Babel de Mexico, by Pilar Maynez, pp. 207-223. Los difrasismos: un rasgo dellenguaje ritual, by Mercedes Montes de Oca Vega, pp. 225-238. La nominacion nahuatl de "cerdo": un caso de no innovacion lexica en la asimilacion lingiiistica y cultural de nuevas realidades, by Miguel Figueroa-Saavedra, pp. 239-268. La morfologia del causativo, aplicativo y frecuentativo del nahuatl en Tlacotenco, Milpa Alta, D. F., by Francisco Morales Baranda, pp. 269-275. Techahchan huel nelli motemaquixtiz in tonahuatlahtol intla ticnequih macahmo polihui. Nitetlatlalhuiz, by David Silva Galeana, pp. 277-285 Chimalpahin, don Carlos Maria de Bustamante and The Conquest of Mexico as cause for mexican nationalism, by Susan Schroeder, pp. 287-309 Celebrating the rise of a new sun: the Tlaxcalans conquer Jerusalem in 1539, by Viviana Diaz Balsera, pp. 311-330. ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 3 18:38:58 2009 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 11:38:58 -0700 Subject: Narrative gestures, geographical, and mental maps in Copalillo Guerrero Nahuatl Message-ID: ABSTRACT: A review of the current Nahuatl literature contains no work in the area of Nahuatl speakers and their gestures. This paper presents one case study of Nahuatl speakers from Copalillo, Guerrero (CG). The narrative is the retelling of a CG myth entitled, "El Primer Mexico". While currently living in California, the speakers were able to reconstruct through gestures a narrative space. They imposed their local geography on to the narrative space. Furthermore, the mythic aspects of the story that were not from the real world were laminated upon the same narrative space. This study finds evidence that CG Nahuatl speakers feel compelled to make narrative space an accurate reflection of geographical space. At the same time they intregate mythic aspects into the narrative space. Referents are clearly laid out and repeated and accurate references are made upon the narrative space. http://www.scribd.com/doc/19115934/Narrative-gestures-geographical-and-mental-maps-in-Copalillo-Guerrero-Nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Thu Sep 3 20:02:56 2009 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 16:02:56 -0400 Subject: Narrative gestures, geographical, and mental maps in Copalillo Guerrero Nahuatl Message-ID: Interesting! I lived for a few years (early 1980s) in a village in San Luis Potosi, Mexquitic, that was founded in 1591 by people from Tlaxcala, and I remember noticing after a while that almost everybody had a habit of pointing in different directions while they told stories. These weren't myths or legends, but stories about themselves and their families and their travels, mainly in search of work but also for religious pilgrimages etc, through Mexico and the US. Eventually -- after I had oriented myself -- I realized that they were not pointing at random, but in fact pointing quite accurately in the actual direction of the places they were talking about (California, Yuma Arizona, Dallas, Chicago, Saginaw Michigan, Monterrey, Mexico City, as well as nearby towns, cities, and shrines). There are two aspects to this gestural habit (or whatever you call it) that I find fascinating: 1) that they found direction important enough to indicate it with hand gestures (which were so casual that they looked almost unconscious, not that they were of course); and 2) that the speakers were so well-oriented themselves that to my knowledge they never erred in pointing, seemingly to the exact degree, at the place they were mentioning. My guess is that these two are linked, i.e. that if direction is important to you, you are more likely to be attuned to it and more likely to keep your orientation, even inside a stranger's house. I wonder if others have noticed this.. cultural habit, or what might one call it?.. in other parts of Mexico and environs? It certainly is not universal. In earlier fieldwork that I participated in rather lacksadaisically in a tiny village in Leon, northern Spain, back in the 1970s (how young we once were!), I noticed that almost anyone could tell the time to within a half-hour by looking at the position of the sun and shadows, and for that matter they had two words for "hill", one referring to the side that faced the sun (solana) and the other to the side that remained in shade (abesedo, a word you won't find in the dictionary), but few of them had much of a sense of direction. In Mexquitic, quite the opposite: most people told time only to the nearest half-day (buenos dias vs buenas tardes -- do I exaggerate? not much...), but everyone had an exquisite, and expressive, sense of direction. -David ________________________________ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Mr. Tezozomoc [tezozomoc at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 2:38 PM To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] Narrative gestures, geographical, and mental maps in Copalillo Guerrero Nahuatl ABSTRACT: A review of the current Nahuatl literature contains no work in the area of Nahuatl speakers and their gestures. This paper presents one case study of Nahuatl speakers from Copalillo, Guerrero (CG). The narrative is the retelling of a CG myth entitled, “El Primer Mexico”. While currently living in California, the speakers were able to reconstruct through gestures a narrative space. They imposed their local geography on to the narrative space. Furthermore, the mythic aspects of the story that were not from the real world were laminated upon the same narrative space. This study finds evidence that CG Nahuatl speakers feel compelled to make narrative space an accurate reflection of geographical space. At the same time they intregate mythic aspects into the narrative space. Referents are clearly laid out and repeated and accurate references are made upon the narrative space. http://www.scribd.com/doc/19115934/Narrative-gestures-geographical-and-mental-maps-in-Copalillo-Guerrero-Nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Sep 4 20:31:34 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 16:31:34 -0400 Subject: Codice Sierra (Texupa) Message-ID: The Codex Sierra will be on display at the La fragua Library in Puebla on Sept. 10. There will also be commentary by Cecilia Osell Gutierrez. http://www.lafragua.buap.mx/img/cartel.jpg In addition, the Lafragua Library has now placed the entire document on the web. It consists of an account book kept in Nahuatl by the natives of Texupa. *http://tinyurl.com/l2uaee * -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 04:59:07 2009 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 23:59:07 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl = Fiesta del mecate ? Message-ID: Hola foristas: Yo traduzco el termino Ihuimecatl como la fiesta del mecate Para ello uso las palabras ilhuitl fiesta y mecatl : mecate, soga , esto es la soga o cuerda hecha de fibras de ixtle, de fibras extraidas de un maguey o de un agave como el henequen. Creo que hay la perdida de letras por un metaplasmo de dicción , sincopa y apocope, de una L enmedio y de un TL al final de donde original término ILHUITL paso a IHUI Otra posibilidad es que en la traductor o paleografo haya alterado la escritura del documento original La tercera posibilidad es que el término si sea IHUI , palabra que desconozco su significado. Solicito su opinión a mi traducción y dudas Agradeciendo su tiempo y respuesta Roberto Romero -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 6 16:57:43 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:57:43 -0400 Subject: Ihuimecatl = Fiesta del mecate ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Roberto: En aparencia, a primera vista, su palabra quiere decir 'mecate de plumas', ihhuitl 'pluma' + mecatl. No es imposible que su palabra sea "fiesta del mecate," dado que es posible de perdir el -l- y que de vez en cuando los elementes de una palabra compuesta se inverten. Michael Quoting roberto romero : > Hola foristas: > > Yo traduzco el termino Ihuimecatl como la fiesta del mecate > > Para ello uso las palabras ilhuitl fiesta y mecatl : mecate, soga , esto > es la soga o cuerda hecha de fibras de ixtle, de fibras extraidas de un > maguey o de un agave como el henequen. > > Creo que hay la perdida de letras por un metaplasmo de dicción , sincopa y > apocope, de una L enmedio y de un TL al final de donde original término > ILHUITL paso a IHUI > > Otra posibilidad es que en la traductor o paleografo haya alterado la > escritura del documento original > > La tercera posibilidad es que el término si sea IHUI , palabra que > desconozco su significado. > > Solicito su opinión a mi traducción y dudas > > Agradeciendo su tiempo y respuesta > > Roberto Romero > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Sep 6 17:28:26 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:28:26 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl = Fiesta del mecate ? Message-ID: Estimado Roberto: Hay cuerdas emplumadas en varias obras escultóricas y pictóricas prehispánicas del centro de México. El año pasado escribí una ponencia sobre la metáfora guerrera teoatl tlachinolli que incluye algunas observaciones sobre este elemento iconográfico. Apunto a continuación un párrafo sobre el famoso Huehuetl de Malinalco, así como la nota número 6. Encontré los nombres aztamecatl y tonacamecatl. ¿Me puedes indicar dónde viste la palabra ihuimecatl, por favor? Me interesa seguir esta pista para seguir aprendiendo sobre este tema. Aquí está el párrafo que mencioné: ******************************************************************* Otra obra escultórica que reúne una gran cantidad de signos pictóricos guerreros es el Huehuetl de Malinalco, un tambor vertical hecho de un tronco hueco. Era tocado en las ceremonias de las órdenes militares elites (figura 5). Los relieves, de factura exquisita, cubren la superficie cilíndrica del instrumento. Se distribuyen en tres zonas. Abajo hay tres anchos pies, separados por perforaciones de contorno zigzagueante, de las cuales salía el sonido del tambor. En dos pies hay jaguares que danzan —a juzgar por su postura— y lloran; portan banderas militares y tocados de plumas; fluyen corrientes de agua de diversas partes de sus cuerpos. Junto a una de las patas de jaguar hay una cuerda con plumas, instrumento que al parecer se relacionaba con el sacrificio ritual de los guerreros.6 ******************************************************************* A continuación apunto la nota a pie de página correspondiente: ******************************************************************* 6. Seler llama esta clase de cuerda emplumada el aztamecatl, y la describe como offering rope [...] which was used in the sacrificio gladiatorio”, “sacrificial rope”, “un cordel de sacrificio” y “soga de sacrificios” (Seler, 1990-1998, vol. 1, p. 66; vol. 4, p. 104; 1980, vol. 2, p. 96; vol. 3, p. 49). No señala en qué fuente encontró el término náhuatl. Revisé la traducción de Dibble y Anderson del Códice florentino, aprovechando la entrada “Gladiatorial sacrifice” en el índice, sin encontrar en los textos en náhuatl el vocablo aztamecatl (Sahagún, 1974-1982). Sí aparece la voz tonacamecatl, traducido por estos autores como “‘sustenance’ rope”, para referirse a la cuerda que se usaba para sujetar a los guerreros a la piedra de sacrificio gladiatorio durante el combate ritual (Sahagún, 1974-1982, vol. 3 [libro 2], pp. 52, 54). Bierhorst (1985, p. 51) registra la palabra aztamecatl y la traduce “white rope”; apunta su fuente: la Historia de fray Diego Durán. Siguiendo esta pista, encontré la descripción que hace Durán (1967, vol. 2, p. 154) de la elaboración de bultos con las efigies de los guerreros muertos, hechos de teas amarradas con cuerdas llamadas aztamecatl, término que Durán traduce como “soga blanca”. Aztamecatl es un sustantivo compuesto, con las raíces aztatl, “garza” o “pluma de garza” (usada también para expresar la idea de “blancura”) y mecatl, “cuerda”, por lo que parece razonable (aunque no seguro) asociar esta palabra con las cuerdas emplumadas que aparecen en ciertas obras plásticas de las épocas Prehispánica tardía y Novohispana temprana. Cuerdas de este tipo se pueden apreciar, en adición a la mencionada del Huehuetl de Malinalco, en el relieve de la superficie inferior de la cabeza de diorita de Coyolxauhqui (descrita más adelante en el presente trabajo), en la página 18 del Códice borbónico (mencionada también en este texto), y en las páginas 45 y 49 del Códice Borgia (1993). ******************************************************************* La ponencia donde se encuentran el párrafo y la nota anteriores (sin publicar todavía; la memoria del coloquio está en preparación) es ésta: ******************************************************************* David Charles Wright Carr, "Teoatl tlachinolli: una metáfora guerrera del Centro de México", ponencia presentada en el Congreso Internacional sobre Historia, Violencia: Represión, Subversión y Cotidianidad en México, Guanajuato, Facultad de Filosofía y Letras, Universidad de Guanajuato, 26 de julio de 2008. ******************************************************************* Saludos desde Guanajuato, David _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Mon Sep 7 01:06:30 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 20:06:30 -0500 Subject: ihuimecatl Message-ID: Listeros: The most logical translation of ihuimecatl to me is a "rope made of feathers" ihui would then be /i?wi/ "feather" without marking for the saltillo and mecatl is of course rope or lineage. Magnus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Mon Sep 7 06:21:02 2009 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 01:21:02 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl = Fiesta del mecate ? Mecate emplumado o Xipe Totec Message-ID: Gracias a los foristas por sus apreciables y generosas respuestas El consenso de las respuestas es que el término Ihuimecatl sería mecate emplumado Un mecate adornado con plumas preciosas y un personaje emplumado que esta amarrado por un mecate emplumado aparece en la imagen que se ilustra en el Magliabechi de la fiesta dedicada a Xipe Totec La imagen la poidemos ver en el sitio de FAMSI El link de esta imagen http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Magliabecchiano/page_30r.jpg Si a eso ligamos los datos que generosamente vierte David Wright en su respuesta creo que se puede concluir que Ihuimecatl parece ser entonces otra forma de llamar al dios que conocemos como Xipe Totec o el Tezcatlipoca Rojo. En los Anales de Cuauhtitlan el dios Ihuimecatl es uno de los tres "demonios " que junto con Toltecatl ; deidad pulquera y Tezcatlipoca conspiran para destruir a un sacerdote llamado Ce Acatl que tambien se llama o se hace llamar Quezatcoatl, como despues su sucesor Huemac al "regir y gobernar" "vino a ser imagen y semejanza de Quetzatcoatl". En esta versión del mito va a ser el dios IhuiMecatl llevara la voz cantante , es el personaje principal en la destrucción de Ce Acatl. Despues de que Tezcatlipoca con su espejo le hace ver lo viejo y decadente que está Ce Acatl, el dios IhuiMecatl ordena al dios Coyotl Inahuatl, el dios de los mexicas que de forma mas antigua poblaron la cuenca de de México y especialistas en el arte plumario que le haga una mascara de plumas preciosas a Ce Acatl . Hecha la mascara y convencido Ce Acatl que con la mascara oculta su vejez y decadencia se atreve ya a salir de su encierro. Entonces Ihuimecatl junto con Toltecatl se van a preparar el pulque, usando unos magueyes del Toltecatepetl que guarda un personaje llamado Maxtla o Maxtlaton , como el celebre "tirano" usurpador tepaneca. Juntos Totecatl y el Ihuimecatl van a palacio y convencen a Ce Acatl que pruebe el pulque Al tercer vaso Ihuimecatl le compone un canto a Ce Acatl que le pide que cante donde Ce Aactl anuncia que dejara su casa Al tomar Ce Acatl el quinto vaso, cinco= macuil el exceso, Ce Acatl queda ebrio su falsa moral se desploma y pide que traigan junto a el a su hermana mayor. Ihuimecatl y Totecatl van por ella y le señalan que debera estarse con él Ce Acatl . LLevan a la hermana mayor y tambien la emborrachan con cinco vasos de pulque y juntos Ihuimecatl y Toltecatl le componen y le cantan un canto a la hermana de Ce Acatl Juntos los hermanos ermitaños se quedan ebrios y continuan tomando en una historia que termina con el abandono de Tula por Quetzatcoatl y tras el sus mas fieles seguidores. Como se ve en esta versión del mito Ihuimecatl, el Xipe totec, aparece como el principal actor de la destrucción de Ce Acatl Quetzatcoatl . Xipe Totec aparece relacionado con el dios Coyotl Inahualt, dios de unos antigüos mexicas y con Toltecatl, a uno de esos incomprendidos dioses llamados despectivamente dioses pulqueros y al parecer es de la región de Tula donde estaba el Toltecatepetl , ademas de que esta también relacionado con un numen llamado Maxtla o Maxtlaton , el cuidador de los magueyes del Toltecatepetl. El mito nos propone una estrecha relación de Ihuimecatl, Xipe Totec, con el pulque y los dioses pulqueros sobre todo y de estas deidades con la historia religiosa mas antigua de naciones después conocidas como mexicas y tepanecas. LLegue a IHUIMECATL, Xipe Totec, elaborando un trabajo sobre los dioses pulqueros, la imagen del Magliabechi me sugirió la traducion inexacta de Ihuimecatl como fiesta del mecate y me indico la relación con Xipe Totec. Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Sep 7 17:46:56 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:46:56 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4th=E4=3A_?= de objetos rituales a nombres propios Message-ID: Estimado Roberto: Gracias por tus comentarios. Es muy interesante que uno de los tlatlacatecolo ("búhos humanos", deidades o hechiceros) mencionados en la narración sobre la derrota de Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl en Tula tenga como nombre la palabra Ihuimecatl, "cuerda emplumada". Hay otros casos en los cuales las palabras para los objetos rituales se usan como nombres de deidades o personas. Viene a la mente el señor xilotepeca Imexxayac, "su cara [máscara] de [piel de] muslo" (en otomí Ehmibäthä, "cara [máscara] de [piel de] muslo", donde E- es un prefijo antroponímico, hmi es "cara/máscara" y bäthä es "muslo"). Este señor es mencionado en los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, la Relación Geográfica de Zimapán y el Códice de Huichapan, como goberante de Xilotepec cuando llegó Cortés por primera vez a Tenochtitlan. Al principio yo no entendía por qué un señor se llamaría "su cara de muslo", hasta que encontré que se trataba de una máscara de piel de muslo, la materia prima para la cual se obtenía del cuerpo de una mujer sacrificada, y que era usada en ciertas fiestas. Este objeto es mencionada por Motolinía, Las Casas, Durán y Sahagún; en este última fuente aparece el nombre en náhuatl de la máscara, "imexaiac" (/i:mexxa:yac/). Por cierto, esta palabra es otro ejemplo del cambio morfofonémico /tz/ + /x/ > /xx/, que recientemente discutimos aquí, puesto que los morfemas básicos son: /i:/ + (/metztli/ - /tli/) + (/xa:yacatl/ - /tl/ - /a/) prefijo posesivo 3a. persona singular + sustantivo: "muslo" + sustantivo: "cara/máscara" Como en el caso del topónimo Mexico (que alguna vez restauré como /me:xxi:cco/ y /me:xxihco/), la consonante doble /xx/ se escribe con una sola x en los códices Florentino ("imexaiac") y Huichapan ("ymexayac"). En el Códice de Huichapan el signo antroponímico de Imexxayac/Ehmibäthä, pintado arriba de la cabeza del gobernante de Xilotepec, es una pierna humana con un rostro dibujado sobre el muslo. Se puede ver en la página 13 de esta ponencia: http://www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright/Comunica.pdf Este ejemplo nos enseña una vez más que no es suficiente el análisis morfológico de las palabras; hay que conocer el contexto cultural e histórico para acercarnos a sus posibles significados. Saludos, David _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Tue Sep 8 03:55:24 2009 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 22:55:24 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4th=E4=3A_?= de objetos rituales a nombres propios 2 Message-ID: Estimado David Gracias por tus generosa información sobre el señor otomi llamado "cara de muslo" Sobre el señor "[mas]cara de [piel de ] muslo", que me sugiere una cara lisa, sin cejas y sin facciones, cabe señalar que no siempre mascaras de este tipo se hacian con un pedazo de la piel desollada de una sacrificada. La mascara podía hacerse de una penca de maguey . Esto lo señala Sahagún en su relato de la fiesta del fuego nuevo indicando que unas mascaras de este tipo las usaban mujeres y niños el dia del Fuego Nuevo para protegerse de los Tzitzimes. Esa escena puede verse pintada en el Códice Borbónico en la imagen de la ceremonia del fuego nuevo que en este códice sustituyo a Panquetzalistli . En la esquina derecha de esa lámina siguiendo las huellas que bajan del cerro con una planta (Huizache, el cerro del Huizache ahora cerro de la estrella) se ve a mujeres y niños portando su mascara azul. Este es el link del Borbónico. http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Borbonicus/images/Borbonicus_34.jpg En la ponencia que amablemente nos remites, tu señalas que una mascara de piel de muslo se usaba en ciertas fiesta religiosas y haces la referencia a Sahagún , Motolinia, Duran y Las casas. Me permito con todo respeto hacer una precisión a tu ponencia. Creo que en ella cometes un error, pues por lo menos dos de los autores citados no señalan el uso de una mascara de piel de muslo. De las Casas no lo sé, no tengo el libro a la mano. Efectivamente, Sahagún en su relato de la fiesta de Ochpaniztli señala que un sacerdote usa la pìel desollada del muslo de una sacrificada. Esto sucedia frente a la estatua de Cinteutl y el sacerdote de la mascara pasaba a representarlo. El dios de la mascara de piel de muslo es Cinteotl , esto és , el dios maiz, cintli es la voz nahuatl para llamar al maiz, esta palabra es de las antillas. El señor Otomi cara de muslo lleva el nombre de Cinteotl en Ochpaniztli . Es posible que este misma palabra Imexayac fuera otra forma entre los colhuas mexicas de nombrar al dios Cinteotl.. En Motolinia describiendo la forma en que sólo se celebraba "de cuatro en cuatro años ", lo que parece una forma de marcar lo que desde los romanos llamamos bisiesto. En esa fiesta cuatrianual de Izcalli se sacrificaban dos mujeres degollandolas. "y alla las desollaban enteramente con sus rostros y sacabanle las canillas de los muslos; y el día de la fiesta por la mañana dos indios principales vestíanse los cueros con los rostros cubiertos como mascaras..." Como se ve no usan la piel del muslo como mascara sino todo el rostro desollado y el resto de la piel de la sacrificada. Las deidades que en esta fiesta se representan son otras muy distintas a Cinteotl , lo que podemos deducir por la distinta "veintena" en que ocurre , por el caracter cuatri anual de la fiesta , porque se representan deidades femeninas y por otros atavios de las "imagenes vivas de las deidades" que narra Motolinia , atavios muy distinto a los que porta Cinteotl. Duran en su descripción de la fiesta de Ochpaniztli me parece que describe la modalidad tepaneca de esta fiesta y por la relación de éstos tepanecas con los otomis, yo pensaba que quizas tambien la otomiana de esta fiesta. Pero el dato que tu das sobre "Cara de muslo" me hace dudarlo . Veo que hay una afinidad cultural religiosa en esta fiesta entre los otomis y los mexicas. que quizas relaciona las fiestas de Tascanme , para la Madre Vieja y de Ochpaniztli para las diosas Chicomecoatl y Toci En Durán la mujer que representaba a Toci nos dice que "Acabada de morir, desollábanla de la mitad de los muslos para arriba y hasta los codos". De nuevo aqui no se habla de la piel del muslo para hacer una mascara. La imagen de la fiesta del Atlas de Duran confirma esto Ahi, el sacerdote imagen viva de la diosa no lleva mascara de muslo. Se muestran al sacerdote con el maquillaje facial, se ven las facciones . Imagen 24 en la edición Porrua de la Historia de las indias de Duran Esperando ser util en la observación a tu ponencia Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Sep 8 16:59:16 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 11:59:16 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4th=E4=3A_?= de objetos rituales a nombres propios 2 Message-ID: Estimado Roberto: Gracias por tus comentarios y observaciones. Creo que tienes razón. Debí de haber especificado en la nota que la cita de Sahagún, sobre los ritos de la fiesta de ochpaniztli, es la referencia principal a la máscara de piel de muslo y que las otras tres citas son para contextualizar. En el caso de Durán, se trata de una descripción alternativa del sacrificio de la mujer en la fiesta de ochpaniztli, en el cual se menciona el sacrificio y el desollamiento de una mujer, y el acto de vestir a un hombre con la piel así obtenida, aunque no se especifica lo de la máscara de piel de muslo. En los casos de Motolinia y de Las Casas (este último repite las palabras de Motolinia, con cambios mínimos), se trata del sacrificio de dos mujeres en una fiesta que Las Casas identifica como xocotl huetzi, pero que en el texto de los Memoriales de Motolinia se ubica claramente en la fiesta de izcalli (era anual, no cada cuatro años). Cité estos pasajes de Motolinia y Las Casas porque es otro caso en que hombres se visten con la piel de mujeres, incluyendo máscaras hechas con este material, aunque no de la piel del muslo. Por el sistema parentético que usé en las notas, quedó poco clara mi intención, pero ahora veo que puedo agregar una oración o dos para que quede todo esto más explícito para el lector, ahorrándole el trabajo que tú tuviste que invertir en leer los diferentes textos en busca de la máscara de piel de muslo. Este texto es parte de un libro en proceso de redacción, por lo que aprovecharé tu comentario para afinar esta parte. Esto es lo bueno de foros como los congresos y las listas de correo: podemos obtener algo de retroalimentación antes de publicar nuestros textos, acercándonos un poquito más a la quimera de la perfección. Dices "Veo que hay una afinidad cultural religiosa en esta fiesta entre los otomis y los mexicas". De nuevo, tienes razón. Aprovecho la oportunidad para agregar que he pasado tres décadas buscando diferencias culturales entre otomíes y nahuas. Hablando del Posclásico Tardío y principios de la Colonia, había una cultura bastante homogenea en los valles centrales de México, después de varios siglos de convivencia entre las distintas comunidades lingüísticas. Si cotejamos los datos disponibles sobre las estructuras sociales, el calendario, los dioses, los ritos, la cultura material, el uso del sistema centromexicano de la escritura pintada/esculpida, etcétera, encontramos que lo que distinguía a los otomíes de los nahuas era básicamente el idioma. Ambos grupos lingüísticos vivían en los mismos señoríos, la mayor parte de los cuales eran plurilingües. Bailaban en las mismas fiestas, compraban las mismas cosas en los mismos mercados, exponían sus pleitos ante los mismos señores en las mismas "casas grandes". Abundaban los calcos, o traducciones literales de palabras, frases metafóricas y difrasismos, cada grupo usando sus propios morfemas para expresar las mismas ideas (incluyendo, por supuesto, los términos calendáricos). Yo pensaba que había encontrado, por fin, un pequeño marcador étnico en la cultura material otomí con los bezotes de obsidiana de Xaltocan que reportan Brumfiel, Salcedo y Shafer, pero me comentó Michael E. Smith que se encuentran los mismos adornos faciales en Morelos, donde en el momento de la Conquista sólo se reporta el uso del náhuatl. En conclusión, no encuentro diferencias culturales entre otomíes y nahuas (aparte del idioma) que sean más significativas que las variaciones entre distintas comunidades de nahuas, por ejemplo. O sea que no había una cultura otomí distinta a la nahua. Había una cultura centromexicana con la participación de distintos grupos lingüísticos. Cada elemento de la cultura tenía sus propias fronteras espaciales y temporales, y estas fronteras raramente coincidían entre sí o con las fronteras lingüísticas. Y por supuesto eran borrosas, permeables y fluctuantes. El resultado fue un mosaico cultural complejo. Me gusta la analogía de Leopoldo Valiñas, quien hablaba de los rasgos lingüísticos, aunque se puede extender a los demás elementos de la cultura: que la realidad no era como en los mapas que elaboramos los investigadores, con fronteras nítidas y áreas con colores sólidos, sino como el piso de una cantina, con manchas traslapadas, salpicaduras y huellas de pies. (Ahí lo dejo; no me des cuerda porque luego no me callo.) Saludos, David _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 04:24:36 2009 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 23:24:36 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4th=E4=3A_?= de objetos rituales a nombres propios 3 Message-ID: Estimado David Si bien es cierto que " Hablando del Posclásico Tardío y principios de la Colonia, había una cultura bastante homogenea en los valles centrales de México ", me parece que no es menos cierto que dentro de ese marco cultural común habia profundas y casi insalvables diferencias culturales entre los pueblos, diferencias que surgían de la religión, el cual era el elemento que llenaba todos los poros de la vida social, que era el elemento que permitia a un pueblo ser distinto de otro, que le permitía constituirse como unidades distintas dentro de lo común. Las diferencias religiosas son diferencias culturales . Esa situación religiosa, políticamente se tradujo en la "balcanización extrema" de los estados y naciones del area mesoamericana que facilitó la conquista española. Hay un pasaje en los Anales de Cuahtitlan en donde los colhuas y chichimecas (nahuas ) de este sitio van a solicitar el apoyo bélico de los guerreros de Huexotzinco (también nahuas) para combatir con los tepanecas (otros nahuas). Los embajadores chichimecas señalan que "y agregaron que no eran sus projimos los tepanecas cuya arma era la honda , y que no los reconocían porque el dios de estos era el llamado Cuecuex" Lo que claramente distingue a los nahuas chichimecas civilizados por los colhuas de los tepanecas nahuas es eso: la religión, diferencias que se concentraban en quien era el dios principal y creador de tal o cual pueblo. El que un pueblo reconociera como su dios principal y creador a X , Y o Z númen desde mi punto de vista no significa que simplemente se cambiaba el gerente general del corporativo religioso y todo el resto del corporativo seguia igual en forma de organización, plantas, metodos de trabajo, procesos productivos, etc Que tal o cual numen ocupara el papel principal obligaba a reconstruir los mitos, a reasignar papeles a las otras deidades, a generar nuevas deidades y mitos que justificaran que ese dios y no otro era el mero mero principal. En suma a generar sus propias religiones dentro de un marco de estructuras religiosas comúnes. Esto nos remite a una vieja discusión, creo que no resuelta: Existío una religión común en mesoamérica o existeron varias religiones con elementos y estructuras comunes. Yo creó lo segundo. Lo comun no los hace igual, los hace parecidos Con solo los números del 0 al 9 se pueden crear y escribir infinita cantidad de numeros; 90 y 09 tienen los mismos elementos pero no son lo mismo, no significan lo mismo. Ahora bien las distintas religiónes, diferencias concentradas en quién es el dios principal y creador del pueblo no se quedaban en el eter o en la fe de los individuos, las distintas concepciones religiosas se reflejaron y se expresaron materialmente por ejemplo en decoraciones y formas cerámicas, en formas arquitectonicas, en trazas urbanas; en la elección por vivir en asentamientos dispersos o concentrados, en elegir construir los centros ceremoniales en asentamientos urbanos o en sitios rurales , en elegir construir en llano, en cerros, en mesas geológicas, en islas o en riveras de cuerpos lagunares, etc.etc. Un ejemplo aunque en Calixtlahuaca y en Tlatelolco hay templos de planta mixta en honra de Ehecatl sólo en Calixtlahuaca es este templo el que estructura la traza urbana de la plaza central del centro ceremonial y alrededor de este nucleo se borda el resto de la traza del sitio. Un ejemplo de reestructuración de la religión expresada en versiones de los mitos lo encontramos en el dios Xolotl que de ser el dios creador en los mitos que recoge Olmos y Mendieta pasa a ser un pobre cobarde que huye de la muerte en los mitos colhuas mexicas que recoge Sahagún . Es el caso de Ehecatl el dios de la mascara de ave, cuya imagen aperece en los códices del grupo Borgia o en el Borbónico o en el Aubin, este dios de la mascara de ave perdió sus atributos divinos que le fueron adjudicados a Ce Acatl Quetzatcoatl cuya imagen como la describe Sahagun sólo aparece en los códices de los informantes de Sahagún (Tepepulco, Florentino), es un Quetzatcoatl colhua mexica. Si alguien señala que Ehecatl es solo una advocación de Quetzatcoatl habia que preguntarse para que una religión abiertamente politeista, que usaba el politeismo sin culpa ni vergüenza y con total desenfado, debía usar un mecanismo como la advocación , mejor hacia un dios nuevo, le asignaba roles , lo colocaba en la estructura mitica y punto . Las advocaciones son el mecanismo que enmascara el polietismo de closet que se usa en el catolicismo con sus distintos santos , virgenes y las distintas efigies del dios principal, cada una de ella con peculiares atributos y tutelas divinas Los propios otomis se distinguieron entre si a partir de la religión en distintas naciones y ello en función del dios que asumieron como su dios principal, lo que les fraccionó en diminutas naciones y permitió su conquista por Toltecas, Tepanecas, Acohuas o Colhuas Mexicas ello a pesar de las reconocidas virtudes guerreras de los otomis, que hizo que sus mismos conquistadores los usaran de fuerza de choque de avanzada en guerras de conquista o que se pusiera a los otomis para resistir el primer embate como guarda fronteras de los imperios. Los otomis en la época prehispánica tuvieron en comun la lengua con variedades dialectales pero desde mi punto de vista estuvieron divididos en distintas naciones en base a la religión, mas alla de lo comun había entre las naciones otomis prehispánicas diferencias culturales profundas . Repito las diferencias religiosas son tambien diferencias culturales. Estan los otomis que al emigrar a tierras Tlaxcaltecas pintaron el códice de Huamantla y señalan que su dios principal y creador no solo del universo sino de ese pueblo parece ser Eday con su mascara de pato, Eday como equivalente de Ehecatl y a una mujer que por su atavío es equivalente de Xochiquetzal, esta pareja los crea en la cueva y señalan como diosa en la guerra a la serpiente con rostro humano que pueden ser Mixcoatl, Cihuacoatl o Acpoxapo. Estan los otomis que pintaron los frescos de Ixmiquilpan que parecen tener a Mixcoatl como su dios principal y creador. Estan los otomis de Querétaro que la mayoria vienen emigrados de Xilotepec y los menos de Tula y Tlaxcala y que señalan como pareja creadora a Padre Viejo y Madre vieja , equivalentes a Tonacatecutli y Tonacacihuatl , señalan a un creador del universo Eday ,equivalente de Ehecatl , pero no le señalaron su dios principal y creador al escribano español de la Relación de Querétaro. Estan los otomis de Xaltocan que señala Sahagún tenían como su dios principal y creador de todo a la Luna pero los Anales de Cuauhtitlan dicen que el dios de los de Xaltocan es la mujer serpiente Acpoxapo, a lo mejor son lo mismo o son dos distintos momentos de la historia de Xaltocan . Estan los otomis que fueron los mas fieles defensores del imperio Tepaneca, los otomis de las zonas del Ajusco y de Cuajimalpa que parecen haber incorporado al Cuecuex como su dios principal , pero para unos el Cuecuex es Xiuhtecutli pero para Carrasco el Cuecuex es Mixcoatl . Con aprecio y admiración por tu trabajo Saludos Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed Sep 9 15:43:18 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 10:43:18 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4th=E4=3A_?= de objetos rituales a nombres propios 3 Message-ID: Estimado Roberto: Creo que estamos de acuerdo en lo fundamental. Se podrían discutir los detalles, pero no quisiera distraer a los demás listeros con algo que sale un poco del tema de la lingüística nahua. Lo importante es entender que las “fronteras” entre aspectos de la religión, como las que había entre otros rasgos culturales, no coincidían necesariamente con las fronteras lingüísticas. Los dioses centromexicanos tenían sus nombres en cada lengua. Un ejemplo de esto se puede ver en el trabajo de autores como Alfonso Caso, quienes usan los nombres nahuas, mejor conocidos, para las deidades pintadas en los códices mixtecos, con esencialmente los mismos atributos que pintaban los escritores nahuas. La lengua podía ser un factor en la construcción de la identidad étnica, pero no era la única. La pertenencia a un señorío (que muchas veces era pluilingüe) era un factor importante. Otro era habitar en una determinada región, con todo lo que eso implicaba en cuanto a la economía. Si la religión mesoamericana se fundamenta en la veneración de diversos aspectos de la naturaleza, el medio ambiente específico de un grupo tenía que influir en sus manifestaciones ideológicas y rituales. En fin, había cierta diversidad dentro de la unidad fundamental de la cultura centromexicana del momento de la Conquista, y es posible enfatizar cualquiera de estos dos apectos con base en la evidencia disponible. Saludos David De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de roberto romero Enviado el: martes, 08 de septiembre de 2009 11:25 p.m. Para: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmibäthä: de objetos rituales a nombres propios 3 Estimado David Si bien es cierto que " Hablando del Posclásico Tardío y principios de la Colonia, había una cultura bastante homogenea en los valles centrales de México ", me parece que no es menos cierto que dentro de ese marco cultural común habia profundas y casi insalvables diferencias culturales entre los pueblos, diferencias que surgían de la religión, el cual era el elemento que llenaba todos los poros de la vida social, que era el elemento que permitia a un pueblo ser distinto de otro, que le permitía constituirse como unidades distintas dentro de lo común. Las diferencias religiosas son diferencias culturales . Esa situación religiosa, políticamente se tradujo en la "balcanización extrema" de los estados y naciones del area mesoamericana que facilitó la conquista española. Hay un pasaje en los Anales de Cuahtitlan en donde los colhuas y chichimecas (nahuas ) de este sitio van a solicitar el apoyo bélico de los guerreros de Huexotzinco (también nahuas) para combatir con los tepanecas (otros nahuas). Los embajadores chichimecas señalan que "y agregaron que no eran sus projimos los tepanecas cuya arma era la honda , y que no los reconocían porque el dios de estos era el llamado Cuecuex" Lo que claramente distingue a los nahuas chichimecas civilizados por los colhuas de los tepanecas nahuas es eso: la religión, diferencias que se concentraban en quien era el dios principal y creador de tal o cual pueblo. El que un pueblo reconociera como su dios principal y creador a X , Y o Z númen desde mi punto de vista no significa que simplemente se cambiaba el gerente general del corporativo religioso y todo el resto del corporativo seguia igual en forma de organización, plantas, metodos de trabajo, procesos productivos, etc Que tal o cual numen ocupara el papel principal obligaba a reconstruir los mitos, a reasignar papeles a las otras deidades, a generar nuevas deidades y mitos que justificaran que ese dios y no otro era el mero mero principal. En suma a generar sus propias religiones dentro de un marco de estructuras religiosas comúnes. Esto nos remite a una vieja discusión, creo que no resuelta: Existío una religión común en mesoamérica o existeron varias religiones con elementos y estructuras comunes. Yo creó lo segundo. Lo comun no los hace igual, los hace parecidos Con solo los números del 0 al 9 se pueden crear y escribir infinita cantidad de numeros; 90 y 09 tienen los mismos elementos pero no son lo mismo, no significan lo mismo. Ahora bien las distintas religiónes, diferencias concentradas en quién es el dios principal y creador del pueblo no se quedaban en el eter o en la fe de los individuos, las distintas concepciones religiosas se reflejaron y se expresaron materialmente por ejemplo en decoraciones y formas cerámicas, en formas arquitectonicas, en trazas urbanas; en la elección por vivir en asentamientos dispersos o concentrados, en elegir construir los centros ceremoniales en asentamientos urbanos o en sitios rurales , en elegir construir en llano, en cerros, en mesas geológicas, en islas o en riveras de cuerpos lagunares, etc.etc. Un ejemplo aunque en Calixtlahuaca y en Tlatelolco hay templos de planta mixta en honra de Ehecatl sólo en Calixtlahuaca es este templo el que estructura la traza urbana de la plaza central del centro ceremonial y alrededor de este nucleo se borda el resto de la traza del sitio. Un ejemplo de reestructuración de la religión expresada en versiones de los mitos lo encontramos en el dios Xolotl que de ser el dios creador en los mitos que recoge Olmos y Mendieta pasa a ser un pobre cobarde que huye de la muerte en los mitos colhuas mexicas que recoge Sahagún . Es el caso de Ehecatl el dios de la mascara de ave, cuya imagen aperece en los códices del grupo Borgia o en el Borbónico o en el Aubin, este dios de la mascara de ave perdió sus atributos divinos que le fueron adjudicados a Ce Acatl Quetzatcoatl cuya imagen como la describe Sahagun sólo aparece en los códices de los informantes de Sahagún (Tepepulco, Florentino), es un Quetzatcoatl colhua mexica. Si alguien señala que Ehecatl es solo una advocación de Quetzatcoatl habia que preguntarse para que una religión abiertamente politeista, que usaba el politeismo sin culpa ni vergüenza y con total desenfado, debía usar un mecanismo como la advocación , mejor hacia un dios nuevo, le asignaba roles , lo colocaba en la estructura mitica y punto . Las advocaciones son el mecanismo que enmascara el polietismo de closet que se usa en el catolicismo con sus distintos santos , virgenes y las distintas efigies del dios principal, cada una de ella con peculiares atributos y tutelas divinas Los propios otomis se distinguieron entre si a partir de la religión en distintas naciones y ello en función del dios que asumieron como su dios principal, lo que les fraccionó en diminutas naciones y permitió su conquista por Toltecas, Tepanecas, Acohuas o Colhuas Mexicas ello a pesar de las reconocidas virtudes guerreras de los otomis, que hizo que sus mismos conquistadores los usaran de fuerza de choque de avanzada en guerras de conquista o que se pusiera a los otomis para resistir el primer embate como guarda fronteras de los imperios. Los otomis en la época prehispánica tuvieron en comun la lengua con variedades dialectales pero desde mi punto de vista estuvieron divididos en distintas naciones en base a la religión, mas alla de lo comun había entre las naciones otomis prehispánicas diferencias culturales profundas . Repito las diferencias religiosas son tambien diferencias culturales. Estan los otomis que al emigrar a tierras Tlaxcaltecas pintaron el códice de Huamantla y señalan que su dios principal y creador no solo del universo sino de ese pueblo parece ser Eday con su mascara de pato, Eday como equivalente de Ehecatl y a una mujer que por su atavío es equivalente de Xochiquetzal, esta pareja los crea en la cueva y señalan como diosa en la guerra a la serpiente con rostro humano que pueden ser Mixcoatl, Cihuacoatl o Acpoxapo. Estan los otomis que pintaron los frescos de Ixmiquilpan que parecen tener a Mixcoatl como su dios principal y creador. Estan los otomis de Querétaro que la mayoria vienen emigrados de Xilotepec y los menos de Tula y Tlaxcala y que señalan como pareja creadora a Padre Viejo y Madre vieja , equivalentes a Tonacatecutli y Tonacacihuatl , señalan a un creador del universo Eday ,equivalente de Ehecatl , pero no le señalaron su dios principal y creador al escribano español de la Relación de Querétaro. Estan los otomis de Xaltocan que señala Sahagún tenían como su dios principal y creador de todo a la Luna pero los Anales de Cuauhtitlan dicen que el dios de los de Xaltocan es la mujer serpiente Acpoxapo, a lo mejor son lo mismo o son dos distintos momentos de la historia de Xaltocan . Estan los otomis que fueron los mas fieles defensores del imperio Tepaneca, los otomis de las zonas del Ajusco y de Cuajimalpa que parecen haber incorporado al Cuecuex como su dios principal , pero para unos el Cuecuex es Xiuhtecutli pero para Carrasco el Cuecuex es Mixcoatl . Con aprecio y admiración por tu trabajo Saludos Roberto Romero Gutierrez _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Thu Sep 10 10:29:27 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:29:27 +0200 Subject: -eh and -huah Message-ID: Campbell/Karttunen and Sullivan are not very clear on the various uses of -eh and -huah as regards quantities. Could anyone please confirm that I'm right on the following please? ONE who has ONE fish - michhuah MANY who have ONE fish - michhuahque ONE who has MANY fishes - mimichhuah MANY who have MANY fishes - mimichhuahque Thank you!!! Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 10 11:39:27 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 07:39:27 -0400 Subject: -eh and -huah In-Reply-To: <000301ca3201$99cee670$99eb3697@susana> Message-ID: Susana, I believe the first element is always the simple noun stem, not the plural form. So, the quantity would not be explicit. This is a common feature of Nahuatl, quantity ambiguity. The inanimate nouns, for example. But "Michmehhuah" sounds funny to me. Michael Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Campbell/Karttunen and Sullivan are not very clear on the various uses > of -eh and -huah as regards quantities. > Could anyone please confirm that I'm right on the following please? > > ONE who has ONE fish - michhuah > MANY who have ONE fish - michhuahque > ONE who has MANY fishes - mimichhuah > MANY who have MANY fishes - mimichhuahque > > Thank you!!! > > Susana > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Sep 10 17:26:02 2009 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:26:02 -0400 Subject: -eh and -huah In-Reply-To: <20090910073927.k1o978ose84s40s0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: But Susana isn't querying about michmehhuah. She seems to be inquiring about a possessor noun derived from the reduplicated distributive form of mich-in, namely mihmich- I would hazard the guess that it would be acceptable with the sense of 'possessor of several different sorts of fish.' BTW, the plural is -huahqueh with a final saltillo/glottal stop, not huahque. Fran Karttunen On Sep 10, 2009, at 7:39 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Susana, > > I believe the first element is always the simple noun stem, not the > plural form. > So, the quantity would not be explicit. This is a common feature of > Nahuatl, quantity ambiguity. The inanimate nouns, for example. > > But "Michmehhuah" sounds funny to me. > > Michael > > > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > >> Campbell/Karttunen and Sullivan are not very clear on the various >> uses >> of -eh and -huah as regards quantities. >> Could anyone please confirm that I'm right on the following please? >> >> ONE who has ONE fish - michhuah >> MANY who have ONE fish - michhuahque >> ONE who has MANY fishes - mimichhuah >> MANY who have MANY fishes - mimichhuahque >> >> Thank you!!! >> >> Susana >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx Thu Sep 10 23:21:13 2009 From: cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx (Ignacio Silva) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:21:13 -0700 Subject: -eh and -huah In-Reply-To: <000301ca3201$99cee670$99eb3697@susana> Message-ID: Susana, es lo siguiente:   Cuando tu tienes un solo pez, utilizas el sustantivo michin, le suprimes la terminacion in y le agregas la terminación hua. Que es un sufijo que permite poseer al sustantivo.   MICHHUA.   Si son varias las personas que tienen un solo pez utilizas la palabra anterior MICHHUA, el que tiene pez, y le agragas la terminacion queh, que sirve para pluralizar un sustantivo poseido mediante un sufijo (e - hua).   MICHHUAQUEH.   Si una sola persona tiene varios peces, entonces lo que se hace es, tambien utilizar el sustantvo michin, solamente que ahora vas a pluralizar el sustantivo y esto se hace duplicando la primer silaba, michin, pez; mimichin, peces. Utilizas este ultimo quitandole la terminacion in y le añades el sufijo posesivo hua   MIMICHHUA.   Si en cambio hay varias personas que tienen o poseen varios peces, entonces lo que haces es pluralizar el sustantivo michin, que ya sabes que es mimichin, y se le añade el sufijo posesivo hua ademas del sufijo pluralizador queh, que al añadirse a hua, se entiende que los que poseen el sustantivo son varias personas.   MIMICHHUAQUEH   Saludos y ojala te sirva este breve explicacion.   Ignacio Silva. --- El jue 10-sep-09, Susana Moraleda escribió: De:: Susana Moraleda Asunto: [Nahuat-l] -eh and -huah A: "Nahuat-l (messages)" Fecha: jueves 10 de septiembre de 2009, 5:29 Campbell/Karttunen and Sullivan are not very clear on the various uses of -eh and -huah as regards quantities. Could anyone please confirm that I'm right on the following please? ONE who has ONE fish - michhuah MANY who have ONE fish - michhuahque ONE who has MANY fishes - mimichhuah MANY who have MANY fishes - mimichhuahque Thank you!!! Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl Encuentra las mejores recetas en Yahoo! Cocina. http://mx.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 11 20:37:56 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:37:56 -0400 Subject: Susana's *mimichhuah Message-ID: Dr. Karttunen et alii/aliae: There is no doubt that -huah/-eh can itself take the plural suffix -queh. I don't think that's Susana's question. Ihe problem I have with her *mimichhuah(queh) or *mimicheh(queh) is the use of *plural noun* before -huah/-eh. I've never seen it in "classical" Nahuatl. (I'm assuming Susana's *mimichin is intended to be a plural. It sounds good but I've never seen that plural for 'fish'.) Maybe combining plural nouns with the possessor suffix is something that modern Nahuatl does, but can anyone supply examples of this kind of behavior in "classical" Nahuatl? One seems to get only things such as mileh...cihuahqueh..caleh...altepehuahqueh...nacazeh (where in fact *two* ears are implied...). Any thoughts, grammarians? Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 11 20:44:46 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:44:46 -0400 Subject: Susana's *mimichhuah In-Reply-To: <20090911163756.z9ayedxgggc804oo@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I have, of course, seen mi:michtin for the fish plural. I don't have Susana's original message, so i can't check what she wrote. in any event, mimichhuah/mimicheh...sounds very...ungrammatical. :-) abierto, michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Dr. Karttunen et alii/aliae: > > There is no doubt that -huah/-eh can itself take the plural suffix > -queh. I don't think that's Susana's question. > > Ihe problem I have with her *mimichhuah(queh) or *mimicheh(queh) is the > use of *plural noun* before -huah/-eh. I've never seen it in > "classical" Nahuatl. (I'm assuming Susana's *mimichin is intended to be > a plural. It sounds good but I've never seen that plural for 'fish'.) > > Maybe combining plural nouns with the possessor suffix is something > that modern Nahuatl does, but can anyone supply examples of this kind > of behavior in "classical" Nahuatl? > > One seems to get only things such as > mileh...cihuahqueh..caleh...altepehuahqueh...nacazeh (where in fact > *two* ears are implied...). > > Any thoughts, grammarians? > > Michael > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 04:12:36 2009 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 23:12:36 -0500 Subject: dioses y numenes de las veintenas de los cerros Message-ID: Estimados foristas Pongo a su consideración mis traducciones de los siguientes deidades o númenes y expongo mis dudas , solicitando su generosa colaboración ya que carezco de un ejemplar del códice Florentino y en la población donde vivo no hay un ejemplar de éste códice ni siquiera en la biblioteca de la capital del estado. En la primera fiesta de los cerros en la veintena de Atlcahualo se sacrificaba a una niña Quetzalxoch, así aparece escrito en la Historia General... edición de Lopez Austin quien no traduce y anota: nombre de un cerrro. 1.- Yo pienso que Quetzalxoch es Quetzalxochitl y traduzco el nombre como Flor preciosa y valiosa , asumiendo quetzal como término que indica lo precioso y lo valioso, aunque literalmente sea pluma de un ave llamada quetzal,que por ser considerada muy valiosa y preciosa en muchas ocasiones tenía el significado de valioso antes que de emplumado. Si Quetzal xoch es realmente Quetzalxochitl este es el nombre invertido de la diosa Xochiquetzal, ¿acaso cuando la diosa era niña? Esto lectura de Quezatl Xoch a Quetzalxochitl la pongo a consideración y tambien pregunto como aparece el nombre de QuetzalXoch en el Códice Florentino 2.- Quetzalxochitl podria ser tambien flor emplumada si usamos los mismos criterios que se usan para la traducción que comunmente se hace de Quetzatcoatl Esta traducción de Flor emplumada lo pongo a consideración 3.- Mi Tercera duda es Quetzal Coatl seria en traducción literal Serpiente Preciosa y creo que se le llama Serpiente Emplumada por las imagenes de esta deidad en códices y representaciones escultóricas como las del famoso Templo de Teotihuacan . Cual es su opinión y la traducción correcta de QuetzalCoatl. En la segunda de tres fiestas de los cerros en la veintena de Tepeihuitl se sacrifican a cuatro imagenes vivas de diosas, númenes o cerros. Mi cuarta duda es la primera mujer sacrificada se llama Tepoxoch asi esta en la edición de la Historia de ... Sahagun editada por López Austin quien lo traduce como "Flor de Espalda". Boturini que toma sus datos de Torquemada tambien le llama Tepoxoch y la traduce como Flor de hierro . Por la ignorancia de este material en la época prehispánica yo leo tal traducción como Flor de metal. Por otro lado Garibay en su edición de la Historia de .. la escribe como Tepexoch no Tepoxoch y la traduce como Flor de cerro 4.- Cual es el nombre que aparece en el Códice Florentino Tepoxoch o Tepexoch y cual sería la traducción. 5.- Otra mujer sacrificada tiene como nombre Xochtecatl en la edición de Lopez Austin y la traduce como la de Xochtlan Boturini le llama Xochiecatl flor de viento Garibay lo escibe Xochitecatl , y la llama por ello Habitante de Xochitlan, y añade Entre Flores. El Xochitecatl es el nombre de un cerro de Tlaxcala con un asentamiento prehispánico desde el preclásico Cual es el nombre que aparece en el Códice Florentino y cual sería la traducción 6.- tambien se sacrifica a la imagen viva de la diosa Mayahuel . Boturini lo traduce como "la que no pudo ser" . Garibay y Lopez Austin no dan traducción Cual es en su opinión la traducción literal y la traducción correcta de Mayahuel 7.- Finalmente se sacrifica a un hombre lamado Milnahuatl Garibay lo traduce como el cercano a la milpa Boturini como el de la milpa de riego Como aparece el nombre en el códice floerentino y cual es su traducción. Por su tiempo y generosas respuestas de antemano mil gracias Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Mon Sep 14 22:54:28 2009 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 00:54:28 +0200 Subject: Mimichhuah Message-ID: * Michin: pescado, Molina 11,56r, Fish, R.Andrews Intr.453 Sah.11 58 Iztac michin, white fish Plural: mimichtin, Sah 11,58,61 and 68. * Mimich is a pers.noun, one of the Mexicah chiefs who founded Tenochtitlan. * Mimichchoh: poss.noun on mich-in with reduplication, decorated with motifs in the form of fish. * Michhuah: poss.noun on mich-in. Fisherman, R.Andrews Intr.453 Que tienne pescados, pescador Launey pag.100 Inhabitant of Michhuahcan Plural: michhuahqueh, Sah.10,188 * Mimichhuah could be a modern Nahuatl word, a poss.noun on mich-in with reduplication. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Tue Sep 15 05:58:06 2009 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:58:06 -0700 Subject: Tocayo:tlahtolli (Nominals) Message-ID: Several of us... put this together from Karttunen, Campbell, and Andrews... Tezozomoc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20090914_NonimalFrame_Nahuatl.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 29745 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Sep 15 15:19:04 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:19:04 -0400 Subject: Mimichhuah In-Reply-To: <749A0120F89F4BA1A22E2C3767D7626B@baert> Message-ID: Susana: Could you send me your original message about the use of -huah/-eh? I'm preparing something for the group and would like to have your original message in hand as a reference point. Thanks! Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Sep 15 16:08:29 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 12:08:29 -0400 Subject: el correo electronico de Susana In-Reply-To: <20090915111904.anz65zs5wowc8gkw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: gracias, todos, de la lluvia de respuestas: sin duvida, tengo ahora el mensaje original de Susana. :-) Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 17 07:08:22 2009 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 00:08:22 -0700 Subject: Aspects of Clasical Nahuatl Phonology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classical Nahuatl as a topic of phonology, syntax, and lexicon is an immense subject. It is a subject plagued by missing primary sources (Andrews, 1975), linguistic neglect, cultural stigmatisms (Tezozomoc, 1997), and critical analysis. It was not until 1975 that Andrew's presented a concise analysis of Classical Nahuatl's grammar. Andrews's own efforts has allowed for us to see where he had faltered in his analysis of Nahuatl assimilations. http://www.scribd.com/doc/19834514/Aspects-of-Classical-Nahuatl-Phonology Aspects of Classical Nahuatl Phonology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 17 16:04:47 2009 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:04:47 -0700 Subject: Tocayo:htlahtolli Nahuatl Nominal.... Message-ID: http://www.scribd.com/doc/19834659/Nahuatl-Tocayohtlahtolli-Nahuatl-Nominal-Frame This link is to a summary table of the Nahuatl Nominal ... Tezozomoc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mcdo0030 at umn.edu Mon Sep 21 14:57:42 2009 From: mcdo0030 at umn.edu (Kelly McDonough) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:57:42 -0500 Subject: Course Readings for Nahua Literature, Language, Culture class? Message-ID: Piyali listeros, I am putting together an interdisciplinary course (undergrad/grad level) on Nahua Literature, Language, Culture and need your help. >>From your respective discipline, what would be a "must read" (or any other suggestions) for a course such as this? Please respond off list to mcdo0030 at umn.edu. I will compile the responses and share with all contributors. Kelly McDonough University of Minnesota - Twin Cities Department of Spanish & Portuguese Studies 612/624-5529 mcdo0030 at umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Sep 23 11:50:17 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:50:17 +0200 Subject: eh/huah Message-ID: Belated thanks to Frances, Michael, Ignacio and Martin for enlightening comments. Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Sep 23 11:52:59 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:52:59 +0200 Subject: nahuac and possessed plural Message-ID: Should NAHUAC be added before or after HUAN in possessed plural nouns? -- NOCALNAHUACHUAN or NOCALHUANNAHUAC? and with ALTEPETL in the singular, should the UH be included? -- NALTEPEUHNAHUAC or NALTEPEHUAC? Thanks for any help. Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 23 13:29:19 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:29:19 -0400 Subject: eh/huah In-Reply-To: <006901ca3c44$6de2c020$e0e93697@susana> Message-ID: Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Belated thanks to Frances, Michael, Ignacio and Martin for > enlightening comments. > > Susana Susana: I'm tardy in getting a more comprehensive analysis of -eh/-huah usage out to you. I will in time. In short, the evidence in the Florentine is overwhelmingly against the use of plural nouns with -eh/-huah. There are a couple of exceptions, which may be explained by a kind of analogy. More later. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 23 14:06:24 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:06:24 -0400 Subject: nahuac and possessed plural In-Reply-To: <006a01ca3c44$6e8e6970$e0e93697@susana> Message-ID: Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Should NAHUAC be added before or after HUAN in possessed plural nouns? > > -- NOCALNAHUACHUAN or NOCALHUANNAHUAC? > > and with ALTEPETL in the singular, should the UH be included? > > -- NALTEPEUHNAHUAC or NALTEPEHUAC? > > Thanks for any help. > > Susana Susana, quiere decir "nocaleh inahuac" y "naltepehuah inahuac"? No se exactamente lo que dice. Pero, no puede anadir -nahuac a un nombre posesivo tal como "caleh". hay que formar una expresion segunda composita de un pronombre posesivo y una posposicion. Cecec? ;-) Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Sep 23 16:46:06 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:46:06 +0200 Subject: nahuac and possessed plural Message-ID: Gracias Michael, Yo estaba tratando de ver el uso de NAHUAC por ejemplo para decir CERCA DE MIS CASAS (nocalnahuachuan/nocalhuannahuac??), pero me parece que tienes razon, que tiene que ser en dos partes. Seria correcto entonces NOCALHUAN INNAHUAC? Por lo que toca al sufijo UH, por ejemplo para decir CERCA DE LA CIUDAD, consulté el libro de Sullivan y me parece que ALTEPEUHNAHUAC no esta bien, y entonces lo correcto es decir ALTEPENAHUAC (el sufijo UH se usa solo con los posesivos, por ejemplo NALTEPEUH, mi ciudad) S ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McCafferty" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] nahuac and possessed plural > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > >> Should NAHUAC be added before or after HUAN in possessed plural nouns? >> >> -- NOCALNAHUACHUAN or NOCALHUANNAHUAC? >> >> and with ALTEPETL in the singular, should the UH be included? >> >> -- NALTEPEUHNAHUAC or NALTEPEHUAC? >> >> Thanks for any help. >> >> Susana > > Susana, quiere decir "nocaleh inahuac" y "naltepehuah inahuac"? > > No se exactamente lo que dice. > > Pero, no puede anadir -nahuac a un nombre posesivo tal como "caleh". > hay que formar una expresion segunda composita de un pronombre posesivo > y una posposicion. > > Cecec? > > ;-) > > Michael > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 23 22:02:00 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:02:00 -0400 Subject: nahuac and possessed plural In-Reply-To: <008a01ca3c6d$5a735490$e0e93697@susana> Message-ID: Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Gracias Michael, > Yo estaba tratando de ver el uso de NAHUAC por ejemplo para decir CERCA DE > MIS CASAS (nocalnahuachuan/nocalhuannahuac??), pero me parece que tienes > razon, que tiene que ser en dos partes. Seria correcto entonces NOCALHUAN > INNAHUAC? Ah. Comprendo ahora lo que haces. Quema. "Nocalhuan innahuac" mihtoa. Inon cenca cualli. No se permite -huan + nahuac en la lengua classica, que yo sepa. > > Por lo que toca al sufijo UH, por ejemplo para decir CERCA DE LA CIUDAD, > consulté el libro de Sullivan y me parece que ALTEPEUHNAHUAC no esta bien, y > entonces lo correcto es decir ALTEPENAHUAC (el sufijo UH se usa solo con los > posesivos, por ejemplo NALTEPEUH, mi ciudad) Si, precisamente. Altepenahuac puede se decir, y tambien naltepeuh, de la manera gramatical que usted describe. Buena suerte, buenos trabajos, Michael > > S > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael McCafferty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] nahuac and possessed plural > > >> Quoting Susana Moraleda : >> >>> Should NAHUAC be added before or after HUAN in possessed plural nouns? >>> >>> -- NOCALNAHUACHUAN or NOCALHUANNAHUAC? >>> >>> and with ALTEPETL in the singular, should the UH be included? >>> >>> -- NALTEPEUHNAHUAC or NALTEPEHUAC? >>> >>> Thanks for any help. >>> >>> Susana >> >> Susana, quiere decir "nocaleh inahuac" y "naltepehuah inahuac"? >> >> No se exactamente lo que dice. >> >> Pero, no puede anadir -nahuac a un nombre posesivo tal como "caleh". >> hay que formar una expresion segunda composita de un pronombre posesivo >> y una posposicion. >> >> Cecec? >> >> ;-) >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Tue Sep 1 13:18:04 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:18:04 +0000 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ?Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ?Con?ctalos ya! _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Sep 1 18:04:02 2009 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:04:02 -0500 Subject: bifrasismos, etc. Message-ID: Listeros, ?Alguien puede recomendar algunos art?culos, preferiblemente en espa?ol (tambi?n en ingl?s), sobre el tema de los bifrasismos, tanto en el n?huatl antiguo como en el moderno? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (en EU) Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Tue Sep 1 20:31:22 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 20:31:22 +0000 Subject: bifrasismos, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: S? bifrasismo es lo mismo que difrasismo, pues si. La tesis doctoral de Mercedes Montes de Oca, "Los difrasismos en el nahuatl del siglo XVI", UNAM, 2000 o un art?culo de la misma autora "Los difrasismos: ?N?cleos conceptuales mesoamericanos?" en el libro "La met?fora en Mesoam?rica". Mercedes Montes de Oca (ed.), Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas, UNAM, 2004, pp. 225-251. Un abrazo, Michel From: idiez at me.com To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:04:02 -0500 Subject: [Nahuat-l] bifrasismos, etc. Listeros, ?Alguien puede recomendar algunos art?culos, preferiblemente en espa?ol (tambi?n en ingl?s), sobre el tema de los bifrasismos, tanto en el n?huatl antiguo como en el moderno? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (en EU) Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gvaldana at yahoo.com Tue Sep 1 20:56:30 2009 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com (Gerardo Aldana) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ________________________________ ?Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ?Con?ctalos ya! ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Tue Sep 1 22:11:29 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 22:11:29 +0000 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: <298892.81007.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Gerardo, It's one thing what people may think and another what historians feed them. Yes, I agree that there are many ideas out there in society with which historians may have problems because they are not historically accurate. This may or may not be a problem. The examples you give (Galileo and Columbus) are quite innocent, because they don't have a particular importance in our present day society. In fact, I would be happy if everybody would know who Galileo was. But when historians write, or express in any other way, things that are not historically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's their job to know these things. Now, I think I made it clear in my message that I don't know up to what point the text reflects what Carrasco may have said or what the reporter may have understood. Rather, my problem is with the contents of the text which contains many mistakes, in the sense of historically inaccurate. Some people have a problem with the use of the word 'error' in historical studies. But there are, in fact, errors. Saying that Hitler died in 1946 is an error. Some people say that man never set foot on the moon, but I think it's pretty much accepted that he did and I would say that idea would be 'erroneous'. Historiography is full of facts and errors. Some of these one may discuss and others we can't for whatever reason. Of course, historiography is controlled by those in power and so 'errors' may become accepted as historically accurate. North Korean historiography is doing a good job at this at the moment. But I think we all know that it's just a matter of time before these errors will be corrected. In this sense, to claim that "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue.", is historically inaccurate according to the historical sources we have. The claim is based on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and concerns Cholula. The people who come to the rescue are those from Chicomoztoc and although that place has many other names, Aztlan is not one of them. One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around. And even less so in regard to the historical sources from Puebla like the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan and the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca. I do invite you or anybody else to read the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca as it's one of the most incredible sources we have. One may discuss the 'historical accuracy' of the source in regard to what we consider 'accuracy' in 'Western' historiography, but that would be a different, and interesting, discussion. That's, however, not what happens in the text which supposedly represents Carrasco's words. It says something that is clearly based on an historical source, while that source, or any other, does not contain that information. That is why I used the words 'mistake' and 'erroneous'. One may claim that the English translation for 'mesa' is 'chair' and maybe even convince some people, but in the end it's a mistake. Un abrazo (a discussion does not mean one cannot be friends or collegues), Michel Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ?Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ?Con?ctalos ya! See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed Sep 2 00:15:19 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 19:15:19 -0500 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Message-ID: I just skimmed through several chapters in the book *Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2* and there doesn't seem to be anything there about Chicomoztoc being in present U.S. territory. It looks like the reporter took liberties with Carrasco's words in the article that started this thread. Anybody who has taken a good look at Yutonahuan linguistics can see that Nahuatl is part of the southern branch of that language family, located in Mexico (except for some Pima-Papago who spill over the border into Arizona). Nahuatl is much closer to related languages in the southern part of the Southern Yutonahuan territory (basically western Mexico), like Caxcan and Pochuteco, than to Pima-Papago. The northern branch of Yutonahuan is entirely in the U.S. The split between these two branches is very ancient, probably around the third milennium B.C., and the Nahua migrations were probably much later, after the collapse of the Teotihuacan political system around A.D. 600. The "Aztec" migrations recorded in 16th century pictorial and alphabetical documents were the last of a long series of Nahua migrations and can be dated historically to the 11th and 12th centuries A.D. All of this points to a Nahua homeland in western Mexico, probably in or near Jalisco, out of which there were several migrations over a period of around 600 years (A.D. 600-1200): first to coastal Oaxaca and Guerrero, then through central Mexico into eastern and southeastern Mesoamerica, and lastly into central Mexico. This hypothetical reconstruction based on linguistic migration theory and glottochronology (imprecise, yes, but useful for a blurry overall vision) seems to hold up when confronted with the archaeological, bioanthropological, and documental evidence. When you see a group origin in a cave, especially when this is followed by a stay in Teotihuacan or Tollan, you're probably looking at a manifestation of the generic Central Mexican cosmogonical narrative, adopted and adapted by diverse linguistic groups like the Nahua, the Totonac, and the Otomi. At some point in each story you can usually detect a blurry border (like Jan Vansina's "floating gap" in west African oral traditions) between this symbolic, primordial timescape and a more realistic account of events unfolding in a recognizable geopolitical landscape. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 01:39:49 2009 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 18:39:49 -0700 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: <298892.81007.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello Gerardo, I suspect the connection Dav?d sought to point out between the Cuauhtinchan 2 and Chicanos is a literary one: the migration narrative of people who have migrated and faced considerable adversity in establishing a new home is an old one in Mesoamerica. Hence his interest in the Chicano invocation of Aztlan. But then that simple, elegant message went through the journalistic meat-grinder and came out as something incoherent. ? But, on the other hand, I don?t know what to make of Dav?d?s comments about Aztlan in the document he has studied. As Michel already pointed out, Aztlan appears nowhere in the Cuauhtinchan 2. There is no depiction or description of ?the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue? in the Cuahtinchan 2 or any related documentation. The comments attributed to Dav?d are indeed in error. Dav?d (or the reporter) must have confounded the Chichimeca with people from Aztlan and therefore confused Chicomoztoc with Aztlan as Michel suggests. ? The broader question of what is an ?error? in the interpretation of history is a thorny issue. Still, I think few would dispute that a professional historian would need to offer some very compelling reasons to advance an interpretation which has zero evidence in the sources, and indeed is even contradicted by them. I would go even further to say that the historian has an obligation to challenge such unsupported interpretations, whether in the academic or popular domains. I think many historians would agree, which is why many have criticized, say, certain Hollywood movies as historically inaccurate. And, of course, just because a particular understanding of the past is popular does not mean that historians should not criticize it if they have good reason to think it is erroneous. ? I confess I don?t get what you?re driving at with the issue of Greek-inspired architecture in Washington. Surely if a Harvard historian said the ancient Greeks built the Lincoln Monument (or the ancient Egyptians built the Washington Monument), I would expect that historian wouldn?t be complimented on his interesting alternative hypothesis, but ridiculed, and rightly so. ? Saludos, Michael --- On Tue, 9/1/09, Gerardo Aldana wrote: From: Gerardo Aldana Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: "Michel Oudijk" , tezozomoc at hotmail.com, nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 4:56 PM Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent?? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet.? As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion?? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else?? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect.? But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY #yiv1198876815 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv1198876815 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} Dear all, ? I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a?journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar?to relate his investigations to?laymen? Either way, the contents?are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos?goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this?interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. ? Un abrazo, ? Michel ? Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is? 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ?Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ?Con?ctalos ya! See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gvaldana at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 04:48:02 2009 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com (Gerardo Aldana) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:48:02 -0700 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Michel, I can easily see how this can very rapidly go ?off-topic? for the list, and I?m fine with that. But while I have the floor? The point I?m trying to make is about how identities are constructed and at what level. The U.S., for instance, has built a substantial amount of its identity on exaggerations or outright misrepresentations of historical events. The fact that you can believe that common contemporary perspectives on Galileo or Columbus are in any way ?innocent? demonstrates precisely how far the intellectual/cultural movement behind their interpretation has pervaded contemporary ?mainstream? culture. (These (and other) misrepresentations resulted from the nineteenth and early twentieth century battles over the respective places of religion and science. (For a well-written and entertaining account, see Jeffrey Russell?s ?Inventing the Flat Earth?.) They were far from innocent and they continue to inform our common sense concerning important issues that we confront everyday (e.g. from stem cell research to the disposal of nuclear waste, global warming, etc).) So my point wasn?t about the relative ?innocence? of an ?historical error;? my point was about the role of scholarship within larger cultural phenomena. Chicana/o culture/movement(s) is(/are) about much more than pinpointing (or not) Aztlan, just as the U.S. is about much more than whether its architects have any reason to incorporate Greek architecture into its public monuments, etc., etc. But do academics have the right to police this? Certainly, we are charged with organizing existing and generating new knowledge according to specific methods, but that does not give us the authority to evaluate uses of such knowledge outside of our own self-imposed limitations. And this, I think, is where our opinions meet. If I may generalize your statement: ?when we as scholars write, or express in any other way, things that are not academically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's our job to know these things.? I would contend only that by the same token, we should recognize the limits of scholarly work. Chican at s should be afforded as much flexibility in ?constructing identities? beyond academia as any other group. Now, as I mentioned, because I haven?t read the book yet, I have to leave the door open as to whether Carrasco might be making such arguments under an academic banner, or whether, as you suggest, this is simply a problem of ?translation? by the reporter. (And I have to confess that professionally, my current opinions on Aztlan are probably not far at all from your own, but) I?m happy to make that call after I?ve read it. Best, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: gvaldana at yahoo.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:11:29 PM Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear Gerardo, It's one thing what people may think and another what historians feed them. Yes, I agree that there are many ideas out there in society with which historians may have problems because they are not historically accurate. This may or may not be a problem. The examples you give (Galileo and Columbus) are quite innocent, because they don't have a particular importance in our present day society. In fact, I would be happy if everybody would know who Galileo was. But when historians write, or express in any other way, things that are not historically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's their job to know these things. Now, I think I made it clear in my message that I don't know up to what point the text reflects what Carrasco may have said or what the reporter may have understood. Rather, my problem is with the contents of the text which contains many mistakes, in the sense of historically inaccurate. Some people have a problem with the use of the word 'error' in historical studies. But there are, in fact, errors. Saying that Hitler died in 1946 is an error. Some people say that man never set foot on the moon, but I think it's pretty much accepted that he did and I would say that idea would be 'erroneous'. Historiography is full of facts and errors. Some of these one may discuss and others we can't for whatever reason. Of course, historiography is controlled by those in power and so 'errors' may become accepted as historically accurate. North Korean historiography is doing a good job at this at the moment. But I think we all know that it's just a matter of time before these errors will be corrected. In this sense, to claim that "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue.", is historically inaccurate according to the historical sources we have. The claim is based on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and concerns Cholula. The people who come to the rescue are those from Chicomoztoc and although that place has many other names, Aztlan is not one of them. One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around. And even less so in regard to the historical sources from Puebla like the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan and the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca. I do invite you or anybody else to read the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca as it's one of the most incredible sources we have. One may discuss the 'historical accuracy' of the source in regard to what we consider 'accuracy' in 'Western' historiography, but that would be a different, and interesting, discussion. That's, however, not what happens in the text which supposedly represents Carrasco's words. It says something that is clearly based on an historical source, while that source, or any other, does not contain that information. That is why I used the words 'mistake' and 'erroneous'. One may claim that the English translation for 'mesa' is 'chair' and maybe even convince some people, but in the end it's a mistake. Un abrazo (a discussion does not mean one cannot be friends or collegues), Michel ________________________________ Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ________________________________ ?Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ?Con?ctalos ya! ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From oudyk at hotmail.com Wed Sep 2 12:43:02 2009 From: oudyk at hotmail.com (Michel Oudijk) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 12:43:02 +0000 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: <200284.39527.qm@web65408.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Gerardo, Sometimes it's nice to see how during a discussion people turn out to have very similar opinions. But the process makes us think about matters and often results in a clearer picture. I couldn't agree more with you. At no point do I want to control or impose my or any other academic opinion onto any social movement, nor do I think we necessarily have such influence. Although at the same I do hope, and I think any scholar does, that bits of the results of our work trickle into "mainstream" society. Un abrazo, Michel Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:48:02 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I can easily see how this can very rapidly go ?off-topic? for the list, and I?m fine with that. But while I have the floor? The point I?m trying to make is about how identities are constructed and at what level. The U.S., for instance, has built a substantial amount of its identity on exaggerations or outright misrepresentations of historical events. The fact that you can believe that common contemporary perspectives on Galileo or Columbus are in any way ?innocent? demonstrates precisely how far the intellectual/cultural movement behind their interpretation has pervaded contemporary ?mainstream? culture. (These (and other) misrepresentations resulted from the nineteenth and early twentieth century battles over the respective places of religion and science. (For a well-written and entertaining account, see Jeffrey Russell?s ?Inventing the Flat Earth?.) They were far from innocent and they continue to inform our common sense concerning important issues that we confront everyday (e.g. from stem cell research to the disposal of nuclear waste, global warming, etc).) So my point wasn?t about the relative ?innocence? of an ?historical error;? my point was about the role of scholarship within larger cultural phenomena. Chicana/o culture/movement(s) is(/are) about much more than pinpointing (or not) Aztlan, just as the U.S. is about much more than whether its architects have any reason to incorporate Greek architecture into its public monuments, etc., etc. But do academics have the right to police this? Certainly, we are charged with organizing existing and generating new knowledge according to specific methods, but that does not give us the authority to evaluate uses of such knowledge outside of our own self-imposed limitations. And this, I think, is where our opinions meet. If I may generalize your statement: ?when we as scholars write, or express in any other way, things that are not academically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's our job to know these things.? I would contend only that by the same token, we should recognize the limits of scholarly work. Chican at s should be afforded as much flexibility in ?constructing identities? beyond academia as any other group. Now, as I mentioned, because I haven?t read the book yet, I have to leave the door open as to whether Carrasco might be making such arguments under an academic banner, or whether, as you suggest, this is simply a problem of ?translation? by the reporter. (And I have to confess that professionally, my current opinions on Aztlan are probably not far at all from your own, but) I?m happy to make that call after I?ve read it. Best, Gerardo From: Michel Oudijk To: gvaldana at yahoo.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:11:29 PM Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear Gerardo, It's one thing what people may think and another what historians feed them. Yes, I agree that there are many ideas out there in society with which historians may have problems because they are not historically accurate. This may or may not be a problem. The examples you give (Galileo and Columbus) are quite innocent, because they don't have a particular importance in our present day society. In fact, I would be happy if everybody would know who Galileo was. But when historians write, or express in any other way, things that are not historically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's their job to know these things. Now, I think I made it clear in my message that I don't know up to what point the text reflects what Carrasco may have said or what the reporter may have understood. Rather, my problem is with the contents of the text which contains many mistakes, in the sense of historically inaccurate. Some people have a problem with the use of the word 'error' in historical studies. But there are, in fact, errors. Saying that Hitler died in 1946 is an error. Some people say that man never set foot on the moon, but I think it's pretty much accepted that he did and I would say that idea would be 'erroneous'. Historiography is full of facts and errors. Some of these one may discuss and others we can't for whatever reason. Of course, historiography is controlled by those in power and so 'errors' may become accepted as historically accurate. North Korean historiography is doing a good job at this at the moment. But I think we all know that it's just a matter of time before these errors will be corrected. In this sense, to claim that "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue.", is historically inaccurate according to the historical sources we have. The claim is based on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and concerns Cholula. The people who come to the rescue are those from Chicomoztoc and although that place has many other names, Aztlan is not one of them. One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around. And even less so in regard to the historical sources from Puebla like the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan and the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca. I do invite you or anybody else to read the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca as it's one of the most incredible sources we have. One may discuss the 'historical accuracy' of the source in regard to what we consider 'accuracy' in 'Western' historiography, but that would be a different, and interesting, discussion. That's, however, not what happens in the text which supposedly represents Carrasco's words. It says something that is clearly based on an historical source, while that source, or any other, does not contain that information. That is why I used the words 'mistake' and 'erroneous'. One may claim that the English translation for 'mesa' is 'chair' and maybe even convince some people, but in the end it's a mistake. Un abrazo (a discussion does not mean one cannot be friends or collegues), Michel Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ?Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ?Con?ctalos ya! See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger _________________________________________________________________ What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From b.leeming at rivers.org Wed Sep 2 16:53:00 2009 From: b.leeming at rivers.org (Leeming, Ben) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 12:53:00 -0400 Subject: Carrasco's Response Message-ID: Dear Colleagues: My former student Ben Leeming alerted me to the conversations about the article that appeared in several places in which I'm quoted about the relationship of the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan #2 and the Chicano movement. I've read your comments and find them stimulating and important and will try, as soon as classes get going here at Harvard, to subscribe to the Nahuatl-L list. As you've figured out, there was a fair amount of mis-communication between me and this journalist. When I was saying "Some Chicanos interpret the location of Aztlan or images in the Mapa ....such and such a way," he took it as either me saying that I UNDERSTAND matters this way.... or as some kind of claim to historical fact. I never said that Aztlan or Chicomoztoc IS in the southwest, except in symbolic claims by some Latinos. I'm not just blaming him-or me-it's the mode of communication-on the phone or quick written messages-that led to some mis interpretation of what I was saying. I never got a follow up from him or saw the article before it was published. Like H.B. Nicholson used to say, "I'll try not to spread to much confusion around." If we can put that article aside and focus back on the matters Michel, Gerardo, David and Michael have raised , perhaps we can learn more about the differences, similarities and conflations of Chicomoztoc and Aztlan? I've looked at this matter for some time now and have come to believe they both point to a more underlying pattern of orientations in many parts of Mesoamerica, namely the power and role of the 'altepetl'. As Lopez Austin writes about it in the third chapter of Tamoanchan/Tlalocan: Places of Mist. Michel makes some pointed comments and he's right, I think, about the Historia Tolteca Chichimeca which our group of 15 scholars depended on a lot during our examination of the MC2 Codex. Yet there are many, many images and events in the MC2 that are not covered in the HTC and invite an even broader conversation about these places of orientation, origin and pilgrimage. Michel, who knows a lot about the matter also writes "One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around." I wonder about this in terms of 'from whose point of view' doesn't it work that Chicomoztoc is not also in some cases an Aztlan? Of course I'm an historian of religions trained in looking at symbolic and sacred places in various religious traditions so our disciplines may also play a role here. Thanks for your comments thus far and I'll look forward to other comments. Saludos David Carrasco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gvaldana at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 17:14:07 2009 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com (Gerardo Aldana) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 10:14:07 -0700 Subject: ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Michel, I totally agree... and I'll also admit to being perhaps a bit too hasty in questioning the scope of your "abrazo." Cuidate, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: gvaldana at yahoo.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 5:43:02 AM Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear Gerardo, Sometimes it's nice to see how during a discussion people turn out to have very similar opinions. But the process makes us think about matters and often results in a clearer picture. I couldn't agree more with you. At no point do I want to control or impose my or any other academic opinion onto any social movement, nor do I think we necessarily have such influence. Although at the same I do hope, and I think any scholar does, that bits of the results of our work trickle into "mainstream" society. Un abrazo, Michel ________________________________ Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:48:02 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I can easily see how this can very rapidly go ?off-topic? for the list, and I?m fine with that. But while I have the floor? The point I?m trying to make is about how identities are constructed and at what level. The U.S., for instance, has built a substantial amount of its identity on exaggerations or outright misrepresentations of historical events. The fact that you can believe that common contemporary perspectives on Galileo or Columbus are in any way ?innocent? demonstrates precisely how far the intellectual/cultural movement behind their interpretation has pervaded contemporary ?mainstream? culture. (These (and other) misrepresentations resulted from the nineteenth and early twentieth century battles over the respective places of religion and science. (For a well-written and entertaining account, see Jeffrey Russell?s ?Inventing the Flat Earth?.) They were far from innocent and they continue to inform our common sense concerning important issues that we confront everyday (e.g. from stem cell research to the disposal of nuclear waste, global warming, etc).) So my point wasn?t about the relative ?innocence? of an ?historical error;? my point was about the role of scholarship within larger cultural phenomena. Chicana/o culture/movement(s) is(/are) about much more than pinpointing (or not) Aztlan, just as the U.S. is about much more than whether its architects have any reason to incorporate Greek architecture into its public monuments, etc., etc. But do academics have the right to police this? Certainly, we are charged with organizing existing and generating new knowledge according to specific methods, but that does not give us the authority to evaluate uses of such knowledge outside of our own self-imposed limitations. And this, I think, is where our opinions meet. If I may generalize your statement: ?when we as scholars write, or express in any other way, things that are not academically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's our job to know these things.? I would contend only that by the same token, we should recognize the limits of scholarly work. Chican at s should be afforded as much flexibility in ?constructing identities? beyond academia as any other group. Now, as I mentioned, because I haven?t read the book yet, I have to leave the door open as to whether Carrasco might be making such arguments under an academic banner, or whether, as you suggest, this is simply a problem of ?translation? by the reporter. (And I have to confess that professionally, my current opinions on Aztlan are probably not far at all from your own, but) I?m happy to make that call after I?ve read it. Best, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: gvaldana at yahoo.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:11:29 PM Subject: RE: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear Gerardo, It's one thing what people may think and another what historians feed them. Yes, I agree that there are many ideas out there in society with which historians may have problems because they are not historically accurate. This may or may not be a problem. The examples you give (Galileo and Columbus) are quite innocent, because they don't have a particular importance in our present day society. In fact, I would be happy if everybody would know who Galileo was. But when historians write, or express in any other way, things that are not historically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's their job to know these things. Now, I think I made it clear in my message that I don't know up to what point the text reflects what Carrasco may have said or what the reporter may have understood. Rather, my problem is with the contents of the text which contains many mistakes, in the sense of historically inaccurate. Some people have a problem with the use of the word 'error' in historical studies. But there are, in fact, errors. Saying that Hitler died in 1946 is an error. Some people say that man never set foot on the moon, but I think it's pretty much accepted that he did and I would say that idea would be 'erroneous'. Historiography is full of facts and errors. Some of these one may discuss and others we can't for whatever reason. Of course, historiography is controlled by those in power and so 'errors' may become accepted as historically accurate. North Korean historiography is doing a good job at this at the moment. But I think we all know that it's just a matter of time before these errors will be corrected. In this sense, to claim that "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue.", is historically inaccurate according to the historical sources we have. The claim is based on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and concerns Cholula. The people who come to the rescue are those from Chicomoztoc and although that place has many other names, Aztlan is not one of them. One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around. And even less so in regard to the historical sources from Puebla like the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan and the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca. I do invite you or anybody else to read the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca as it's one of the most incredible sources we have. One may discuss the 'historical accuracy' of the source in regard to what we consider 'accuracy' in 'Western' historiography, but that would be a different, and interesting, discussion. That's, however, not what happens in the text which supposedly represents Carrasco's words. It says something that is clearly based on an historical source, while that source, or any other, does not contain that information. That is why I used the words 'mistake' and 'erroneous'. One may claim that the English translation for 'mesa' is 'chair' and maybe even convince some people, but in the end it's a mistake. Un abrazo (a discussion does not mean one cannot be friends or collegues), Michel ________________________________ Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700 From: gvaldana at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY To: oudyk at hotmail.com; tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Hi Michel, I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me. I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization? These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message. Sincerely, Gerardo ________________________________ From: Michel Oudijk To: tezozomoc at hotmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY Dear all, I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from. I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information. Un abrazo, Michel Source: EFE: 08/27 ==== ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest, according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan 2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of the Eagle's Nest (in the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around 1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and divinities," Carrasco said. That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001, philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco. The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco said that in 2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region," Carrasco said. That new understanding has political and social significance today. "This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands where the struggle for their freedom and rights took place before the oppression." So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who "travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a serious social conflict," he said. Source: EFE: 08/25 ==== The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30 ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ________________________________ ?Quieres que tus amigos de Messenger sigan tus movimientos de Facebook? ?Con?ctalos ya! ________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family ________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger ________________________________ What can you do with the new Windows Live? Find out -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Sep 3 18:30:54 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 14:30:54 -0400 Subject: Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl, vol. 39 Message-ID: ESTUDIOS DE CULTURA NAHUATL PUBLICACION ANUAL DEL INSTITUTO DE INVESTIGACIONES HISTORICAS DE LA UNIVERSIDAD NACIONAL AUTONOMA DE MEXICO Editor: Miguel Leon-Portilla Editores asociados: Jose Ruben Romero Galvan y Salvador Reyes Equiguas SUMARIO Volumen 39. Nahuatlismos: registro de una cultura, pp. 13-15. Mitologia, mitografia y mitokinesia. Una secuencia narrativa de la peregrinacion de los aztecas, by Patrick Johansson K., pp. 17-50. Fama, honra y renombre entre los nahuas, by Marc Thouvenot y Jose Ruben Romero Galvan, pp. 51-64. Tula Xicocotitlan: historia y arqueologia, by Miguel Leon-Portilla, pp. 65-86. Los cantos zapotecos de Villa Aha: dos generos rituales indigenas y sus correspondencias con los Cantares mexicanos, by David Tavarez, pp. 87-126. Tecnologia alimentaria prehispanica, by Janet Long, pp. 127-136. El trono del aguila y el jaguar. Una revision a la figura de Moctezuma II, by Isabel Bueno Bravo, pp. 137-166. El Arte de La lengua mexicana y castellana de fray Alonso Molina: morfologia y composicion, Asencion Hernandez de Leon-Portilla, pp. 167-206. Sobre el origen del lenguaje y la diversidad lingiiistica: 1a Babel de Mexico, by Pilar Maynez, pp. 207-223. Los difrasismos: un rasgo dellenguaje ritual, by Mercedes Montes de Oca Vega, pp. 225-238. La nominacion nahuatl de "cerdo": un caso de no innovacion lexica en la asimilacion lingiiistica y cultural de nuevas realidades, by Miguel Figueroa-Saavedra, pp. 239-268. La morfologia del causativo, aplicativo y frecuentativo del nahuatl en Tlacotenco, Milpa Alta, D. F., by Francisco Morales Baranda, pp. 269-275. Techahchan huel nelli motemaquixtiz in tonahuatlahtol intla ticnequih macahmo polihui. Nitetlatlalhuiz, by David Silva Galeana, pp. 277-285 Chimalpahin, don Carlos Maria de Bustamante and The Conquest of Mexico as cause for mexican nationalism, by Susan Schroeder, pp. 287-309 Celebrating the rise of a new sun: the Tlaxcalans conquer Jerusalem in 1539, by Viviana Diaz Balsera, pp. 311-330. ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 3 18:38:58 2009 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 11:38:58 -0700 Subject: Narrative gestures, geographical, and mental maps in Copalillo Guerrero Nahuatl Message-ID: ABSTRACT: A review of the current Nahuatl literature contains no work in the area of Nahuatl speakers and their gestures. This paper presents one case study of Nahuatl speakers from Copalillo, Guerrero (CG). The narrative is the retelling of a CG myth entitled, "El Primer Mexico". While currently living in California, the speakers were able to reconstruct through gestures a narrative space. They imposed their local geography on to the narrative space. Furthermore, the mythic aspects of the story that were not from the real world were laminated upon the same narrative space. This study finds evidence that CG Nahuatl speakers feel compelled to make narrative space an accurate reflection of geographical space. At the same time they intregate mythic aspects into the narrative space. Referents are clearly laid out and repeated and accurate references are made upon the narrative space. http://www.scribd.com/doc/19115934/Narrative-gestures-geographical-and-mental-maps-in-Copalillo-Guerrero-Nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Thu Sep 3 20:02:56 2009 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 16:02:56 -0400 Subject: Narrative gestures, geographical, and mental maps in Copalillo Guerrero Nahuatl Message-ID: Interesting! I lived for a few years (early 1980s) in a village in San Luis Potosi, Mexquitic, that was founded in 1591 by people from Tlaxcala, and I remember noticing after a while that almost everybody had a habit of pointing in different directions while they told stories. These weren't myths or legends, but stories about themselves and their families and their travels, mainly in search of work but also for religious pilgrimages etc, through Mexico and the US. Eventually -- after I had oriented myself -- I realized that they were not pointing at random, but in fact pointing quite accurately in the actual direction of the places they were talking about (California, Yuma Arizona, Dallas, Chicago, Saginaw Michigan, Monterrey, Mexico City, as well as nearby towns, cities, and shrines). There are two aspects to this gestural habit (or whatever you call it) that I find fascinating: 1) that they found direction important enough to indicate it with hand gestures (which were so casual that they looked almost unconscious, not that they were of course); and 2) that the speakers were so well-oriented themselves that to my knowledge they never erred in pointing, seemingly to the exact degree, at the place they were mentioning. My guess is that these two are linked, i.e. that if direction is important to you, you are more likely to be attuned to it and more likely to keep your orientation, even inside a stranger's house. I wonder if others have noticed this.. cultural habit, or what might one call it?.. in other parts of Mexico and environs? It certainly is not universal. In earlier fieldwork that I participated in rather lacksadaisically in a tiny village in Leon, northern Spain, back in the 1970s (how young we once were!), I noticed that almost anyone could tell the time to within a half-hour by looking at the position of the sun and shadows, and for that matter they had two words for "hill", one referring to the side that faced the sun (solana) and the other to the side that remained in shade (abesedo, a word you won't find in the dictionary), but few of them had much of a sense of direction. In Mexquitic, quite the opposite: most people told time only to the nearest half-day (buenos dias vs buenas tardes -- do I exaggerate? not much...), but everyone had an exquisite, and expressive, sense of direction. -David ________________________________ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Mr. Tezozomoc [tezozomoc at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 2:38 PM To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] Narrative gestures, geographical, and mental maps in Copalillo Guerrero Nahuatl ABSTRACT: A review of the current Nahuatl literature contains no work in the area of Nahuatl speakers and their gestures. This paper presents one case study of Nahuatl speakers from Copalillo, Guerrero (CG). The narrative is the retelling of a CG myth entitled, ?El Primer Mexico?. While currently living in California, the speakers were able to reconstruct through gestures a narrative space. They imposed their local geography on to the narrative space. Furthermore, the mythic aspects of the story that were not from the real world were laminated upon the same narrative space. This study finds evidence that CG Nahuatl speakers feel compelled to make narrative space an accurate reflection of geographical space. At the same time they intregate mythic aspects into the narrative space. Referents are clearly laid out and repeated and accurate references are made upon the narrative space. http://www.scribd.com/doc/19115934/Narrative-gestures-geographical-and-mental-maps-in-Copalillo-Guerrero-Nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Sep 4 20:31:34 2009 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 16:31:34 -0400 Subject: Codice Sierra (Texupa) Message-ID: The Codex Sierra will be on display at the La fragua Library in Puebla on Sept. 10. There will also be commentary by Cecilia Osell Gutierrez. http://www.lafragua.buap.mx/img/cartel.jpg In addition, the Lafragua Library has now placed the entire document on the web. It consists of an account book kept in Nahuatl by the natives of Texupa. *http://tinyurl.com/l2uaee * -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 04:59:07 2009 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 23:59:07 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl = Fiesta del mecate ? Message-ID: Hola foristas: Yo traduzco el termino Ihuimecatl como la fiesta del mecate Para ello uso las palabras ilhuitl fiesta y mecatl : mecate, soga , esto es la soga o cuerda hecha de fibras de ixtle, de fibras extraidas de un maguey o de un agave como el henequen. Creo que hay la perdida de letras por un metaplasmo de dicci?n , sincopa y apocope, de una L enmedio y de un TL al final de donde original t?rmino ILHUITL paso a IHUI Otra posibilidad es que en la traductor o paleografo haya alterado la escritura del documento original La tercera posibilidad es que el t?rmino si sea IHUI , palabra que desconozco su significado. Solicito su opini?n a mi traducci?n y dudas Agradeciendo su tiempo y respuesta Roberto Romero -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 6 16:57:43 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:57:43 -0400 Subject: Ihuimecatl = Fiesta del mecate ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Roberto: En aparencia, a primera vista, su palabra quiere decir 'mecate de plumas', ihhuitl 'pluma' + mecatl. No es imposible que su palabra sea "fiesta del mecate," dado que es posible de perdir el -l- y que de vez en cuando los elementes de una palabra compuesta se inverten. Michael Quoting roberto romero : > Hola foristas: > > Yo traduzco el termino Ihuimecatl como la fiesta del mecate > > Para ello uso las palabras ilhuitl fiesta y mecatl : mecate, soga , esto > es la soga o cuerda hecha de fibras de ixtle, de fibras extraidas de un > maguey o de un agave como el henequen. > > Creo que hay la perdida de letras por un metaplasmo de dicci?n , sincopa y > apocope, de una L enmedio y de un TL al final de donde original t?rmino > ILHUITL paso a IHUI > > Otra posibilidad es que en la traductor o paleografo haya alterado la > escritura del documento original > > La tercera posibilidad es que el t?rmino si sea IHUI , palabra que > desconozco su significado. > > Solicito su opini?n a mi traducci?n y dudas > > Agradeciendo su tiempo y respuesta > > Roberto Romero > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Sep 6 17:28:26 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:28:26 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl = Fiesta del mecate ? Message-ID: Estimado Roberto: Hay cuerdas emplumadas en varias obras escult?ricas y pict?ricas prehisp?nicas del centro de M?xico. El a?o pasado escrib? una ponencia sobre la met?fora guerrera teoatl tlachinolli que incluye algunas observaciones sobre este elemento iconogr?fico. Apunto a continuaci?n un p?rrafo sobre el famoso Huehuetl de Malinalco, as? como la nota n?mero 6. Encontr? los nombres aztamecatl y tonacamecatl. ?Me puedes indicar d?nde viste la palabra ihuimecatl, por favor? Me interesa seguir esta pista para seguir aprendiendo sobre este tema. Aqu? est? el p?rrafo que mencion?: ******************************************************************* Otra obra escult?rica que re?ne una gran cantidad de signos pict?ricos guerreros es el Huehuetl de Malinalco, un tambor vertical hecho de un tronco hueco. Era tocado en las ceremonias de las ?rdenes militares elites (figura 5). Los relieves, de factura exquisita, cubren la superficie cil?ndrica del instrumento. Se distribuyen en tres zonas. Abajo hay tres anchos pies, separados por perforaciones de contorno zigzagueante, de las cuales sal?a el sonido del tambor. En dos pies hay jaguares que danzan ?a juzgar por su postura? y lloran; portan banderas militares y tocados de plumas; fluyen corrientes de agua de diversas partes de sus cuerpos. Junto a una de las patas de jaguar hay una cuerda con plumas, instrumento que al parecer se relacionaba con el sacrificio ritual de los guerreros.6 ******************************************************************* A continuaci?n apunto la nota a pie de p?gina correspondiente: ******************************************************************* 6. Seler llama esta clase de cuerda emplumada el aztamecatl, y la describe como offering rope [...] which was used in the sacrificio gladiatorio?, ?sacrificial rope?, ?un cordel de sacrificio? y ?soga de sacrificios? (Seler, 1990-1998, vol. 1, p. 66; vol. 4, p. 104; 1980, vol. 2, p. 96; vol. 3, p. 49). No se?ala en qu? fuente encontr? el t?rmino n?huatl. Revis? la traducci?n de Dibble y Anderson del C?dice florentino, aprovechando la entrada ?Gladiatorial sacrifice? en el ?ndice, sin encontrar en los textos en n?huatl el vocablo aztamecatl (Sahag?n, 1974-1982). S? aparece la voz tonacamecatl, traducido por estos autores como ??sustenance? rope?, para referirse a la cuerda que se usaba para sujetar a los guerreros a la piedra de sacrificio gladiatorio durante el combate ritual (Sahag?n, 1974-1982, vol. 3 [libro 2], pp. 52, 54). Bierhorst (1985, p. 51) registra la palabra aztamecatl y la traduce ?white rope?; apunta su fuente: la Historia de fray Diego Dur?n. Siguiendo esta pista, encontr? la descripci?n que hace Dur?n (1967, vol. 2, p. 154) de la elaboraci?n de bultos con las efigies de los guerreros muertos, hechos de teas amarradas con cuerdas llamadas aztamecatl, t?rmino que Dur?n traduce como ?soga blanca?. Aztamecatl es un sustantivo compuesto, con las ra?ces aztatl, ?garza? o ?pluma de garza? (usada tambi?n para expresar la idea de ?blancura?) y mecatl, ?cuerda?, por lo que parece razonable (aunque no seguro) asociar esta palabra con las cuerdas emplumadas que aparecen en ciertas obras pl?sticas de las ?pocas Prehisp?nica tard?a y Novohispana temprana. Cuerdas de este tipo se pueden apreciar, en adici?n a la mencionada del Huehuetl de Malinalco, en el relieve de la superficie inferior de la cabeza de diorita de Coyolxauhqui (descrita m?s adelante en el presente trabajo), en la p?gina 18 del C?dice borb?nico (mencionada tambi?n en este texto), y en las p?ginas 45 y 49 del C?dice Borgia (1993). ******************************************************************* La ponencia donde se encuentran el p?rrafo y la nota anteriores (sin publicar todav?a; la memoria del coloquio est? en preparaci?n) es ?sta: ******************************************************************* David Charles Wright Carr, "Teoatl tlachinolli: una met?fora guerrera del Centro de M?xico", ponencia presentada en el Congreso Internacional sobre Historia, Violencia: Represi?n, Subversi?n y Cotidianidad en M?xico, Guanajuato, Facultad de Filosof?a y Letras, Universidad de Guanajuato, 26 de julio de 2008. ******************************************************************* Saludos desde Guanajuato, David _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Mon Sep 7 01:06:30 2009 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 20:06:30 -0500 Subject: ihuimecatl Message-ID: Listeros: The most logical translation of ihuimecatl to me is a "rope made of feathers" ihui would then be /i?wi/ "feather" without marking for the saltillo and mecatl is of course rope or lineage. Magnus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Mon Sep 7 06:21:02 2009 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 01:21:02 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl = Fiesta del mecate ? Mecate emplumado o Xipe Totec Message-ID: Gracias a los foristas por sus apreciables y generosas respuestas El consenso de las respuestas es que el t?rmino Ihuimecatl ser?a mecate emplumado Un mecate adornado con plumas preciosas y un personaje emplumado que esta amarrado por un mecate emplumado aparece en la imagen que se ilustra en el Magliabechi de la fiesta dedicada a Xipe Totec La imagen la poidemos ver en el sitio de FAMSI El link de esta imagen http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Magliabecchiano/page_30r.jpg Si a eso ligamos los datos que generosamente vierte David Wright en su respuesta creo que se puede concluir que Ihuimecatl parece ser entonces otra forma de llamar al dios que conocemos como Xipe Totec o el Tezcatlipoca Rojo. En los Anales de Cuauhtitlan el dios Ihuimecatl es uno de los tres "demonios " que junto con Toltecatl ; deidad pulquera y Tezcatlipoca conspiran para destruir a un sacerdote llamado Ce Acatl que tambien se llama o se hace llamar Quezatcoatl, como despues su sucesor Huemac al "regir y gobernar" "vino a ser imagen y semejanza de Quetzatcoatl". En esta versi?n del mito va a ser el dios IhuiMecatl llevara la voz cantante , es el personaje principal en la destrucci?n de Ce Acatl. Despues de que Tezcatlipoca con su espejo le hace ver lo viejo y decadente que est? Ce Acatl, el dios IhuiMecatl ordena al dios Coyotl Inahuatl, el dios de los mexicas que de forma mas antigua poblaron la cuenca de de M?xico y especialistas en el arte plumario que le haga una mascara de plumas preciosas a Ce Acatl . Hecha la mascara y convencido Ce Acatl que con la mascara oculta su vejez y decadencia se atreve ya a salir de su encierro. Entonces Ihuimecatl junto con Toltecatl se van a preparar el pulque, usando unos magueyes del Toltecatepetl que guarda un personaje llamado Maxtla o Maxtlaton , como el celebre "tirano" usurpador tepaneca. Juntos Totecatl y el Ihuimecatl van a palacio y convencen a Ce Acatl que pruebe el pulque Al tercer vaso Ihuimecatl le compone un canto a Ce Acatl que le pide que cante donde Ce Aactl anuncia que dejara su casa Al tomar Ce Acatl el quinto vaso, cinco= macuil el exceso, Ce Acatl queda ebrio su falsa moral se desploma y pide que traigan junto a el a su hermana mayor. Ihuimecatl y Totecatl van por ella y le se?alan que debera estarse con ?l Ce Acatl . LLevan a la hermana mayor y tambien la emborrachan con cinco vasos de pulque y juntos Ihuimecatl y Toltecatl le componen y le cantan un canto a la hermana de Ce Acatl Juntos los hermanos ermita?os se quedan ebrios y continuan tomando en una historia que termina con el abandono de Tula por Quetzatcoatl y tras el sus mas fieles seguidores. Como se ve en esta versi?n del mito Ihuimecatl, el Xipe totec, aparece como el principal actor de la destrucci?n de Ce Acatl Quetzatcoatl . Xipe Totec aparece relacionado con el dios Coyotl Inahualt, dios de unos antig?os mexicas y con Toltecatl, a uno de esos incomprendidos dioses llamados despectivamente dioses pulqueros y al parecer es de la regi?n de Tula donde estaba el Toltecatepetl , ademas de que esta tambi?n relacionado con un numen llamado Maxtla o Maxtlaton , el cuidador de los magueyes del Toltecatepetl. El mito nos propone una estrecha relaci?n de Ihuimecatl, Xipe Totec, con el pulque y los dioses pulqueros sobre todo y de estas deidades con la historia religiosa mas antigua de naciones despu?s conocidas como mexicas y tepanecas. LLegue a IHUIMECATL, Xipe Totec, elaborando un trabajo sobre los dioses pulqueros, la imagen del Magliabechi me sugiri? la traducion inexacta de Ihuimecatl como fiesta del mecate y me indico la relaci?n con Xipe Totec. Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Sep 7 17:46:56 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:46:56 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4th=E4=3A_?= de objetos rituales a nombres propios Message-ID: Estimado Roberto: Gracias por tus comentarios. Es muy interesante que uno de los tlatlacatecolo ("b?hos humanos", deidades o hechiceros) mencionados en la narraci?n sobre la derrota de Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl en Tula tenga como nombre la palabra Ihuimecatl, "cuerda emplumada". Hay otros casos en los cuales las palabras para los objetos rituales se usan como nombres de deidades o personas. Viene a la mente el se?or xilotepeca Imexxayac, "su cara [m?scara] de [piel de] muslo" (en otom? Ehmib?th?, "cara [m?scara] de [piel de] muslo", donde E- es un prefijo antropon?mico, hmi es "cara/m?scara" y b?th? es "muslo"). Este se?or es mencionado en los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, la Relaci?n Geogr?fica de Zimap?n y el C?dice de Huichapan, como goberante de Xilotepec cuando lleg? Cort?s por primera vez a Tenochtitlan. Al principio yo no entend?a por qu? un se?or se llamar?a "su cara de muslo", hasta que encontr? que se trataba de una m?scara de piel de muslo, la materia prima para la cual se obten?a del cuerpo de una mujer sacrificada, y que era usada en ciertas fiestas. Este objeto es mencionada por Motolin?a, Las Casas, Dur?n y Sahag?n; en este ?ltima fuente aparece el nombre en n?huatl de la m?scara, "imexaiac" (/i:mexxa:yac/). Por cierto, esta palabra es otro ejemplo del cambio morfofon?mico /tz/ + /x/ > /xx/, que recientemente discutimos aqu?, puesto que los morfemas b?sicos son: /i:/ + (/metztli/ - /tli/) + (/xa:yacatl/ - /tl/ - /a/) prefijo posesivo 3a. persona singular + sustantivo: "muslo" + sustantivo: "cara/m?scara" Como en el caso del top?nimo Mexico (que alguna vez restaur? como /me:xxi:cco/ y /me:xxihco/), la consonante doble /xx/ se escribe con una sola x en los c?dices Florentino ("imexaiac") y Huichapan ("ymexayac"). En el C?dice de Huichapan el signo antropon?mico de Imexxayac/Ehmib?th?, pintado arriba de la cabeza del gobernante de Xilotepec, es una pierna humana con un rostro dibujado sobre el muslo. Se puede ver en la p?gina 13 de esta ponencia: http://www.paginasprodigy.com/dcwright/Comunica.pdf Este ejemplo nos ense?a una vez m?s que no es suficiente el an?lisis morfol?gico de las palabras; hay que conocer el contexto cultural e hist?rico para acercarnos a sus posibles significados. Saludos, David _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Tue Sep 8 03:55:24 2009 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 22:55:24 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4th=E4=3A_?= de objetos rituales a nombres propios 2 Message-ID: Estimado David Gracias por tus generosa informaci?n sobre el se?or otomi llamado "cara de muslo" Sobre el se?or "[mas]cara de [piel de ] muslo", que me sugiere una cara lisa, sin cejas y sin facciones, cabe se?alar que no siempre mascaras de este tipo se hacian con un pedazo de la piel desollada de una sacrificada. La mascara pod?a hacerse de una penca de maguey . Esto lo se?ala Sahag?n en su relato de la fiesta del fuego nuevo indicando que unas mascaras de este tipo las usaban mujeres y ni?os el dia del Fuego Nuevo para protegerse de los Tzitzimes. Esa escena puede verse pintada en el C?dice Borb?nico en la imagen de la ceremonia del fuego nuevo que en este c?dice sustituyo a Panquetzalistli . En la esquina derecha de esa l?mina siguiendo las huellas que bajan del cerro con una planta (Huizache, el cerro del Huizache ahora cerro de la estrella) se ve a mujeres y ni?os portando su mascara azul. Este es el link del Borb?nico. http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Borbonicus/images/Borbonicus_34.jpg En la ponencia que amablemente nos remites, tu se?alas que una mascara de piel de muslo se usaba en ciertas fiesta religiosas y haces la referencia a Sahag?n , Motolinia, Duran y Las casas. Me permito con todo respeto hacer una precisi?n a tu ponencia. Creo que en ella cometes un error, pues por lo menos dos de los autores citados no se?alan el uso de una mascara de piel de muslo. De las Casas no lo s?, no tengo el libro a la mano. Efectivamente, Sahag?n en su relato de la fiesta de Ochpaniztli se?ala que un sacerdote usa la p?el desollada del muslo de una sacrificada. Esto sucedia frente a la estatua de Cinteutl y el sacerdote de la mascara pasaba a representarlo. El dios de la mascara de piel de muslo es Cinteotl , esto ?s , el dios maiz, cintli es la voz nahuatl para llamar al maiz, esta palabra es de las antillas. El se?or Otomi cara de muslo lleva el nombre de Cinteotl en Ochpaniztli . Es posible que este misma palabra Imexayac fuera otra forma entre los colhuas mexicas de nombrar al dios Cinteotl.. En Motolinia describiendo la forma en que s?lo se celebraba "de cuatro en cuatro a?os ", lo que parece una forma de marcar lo que desde los romanos llamamos bisiesto. En esa fiesta cuatrianual de Izcalli se sacrificaban dos mujeres degollandolas. "y alla las desollaban enteramente con sus rostros y sacabanle las canillas de los muslos; y el d?a de la fiesta por la ma?ana dos indios principales vest?anse los cueros con los rostros cubiertos como mascaras..." Como se ve no usan la piel del muslo como mascara sino todo el rostro desollado y el resto de la piel de la sacrificada. Las deidades que en esta fiesta se representan son otras muy distintas a Cinteotl , lo que podemos deducir por la distinta "veintena" en que ocurre , por el caracter cuatri anual de la fiesta , porque se representan deidades femeninas y por otros atavios de las "imagenes vivas de las deidades" que narra Motolinia , atavios muy distinto a los que porta Cinteotl. Duran en su descripci?n de la fiesta de Ochpaniztli me parece que describe la modalidad tepaneca de esta fiesta y por la relaci?n de ?stos tepanecas con los otomis, yo pensaba que quizas tambien la otomiana de esta fiesta. Pero el dato que tu das sobre "Cara de muslo" me hace dudarlo . Veo que hay una afinidad cultural religiosa en esta fiesta entre los otomis y los mexicas. que quizas relaciona las fiestas de Tascanme , para la Madre Vieja y de Ochpaniztli para las diosas Chicomecoatl y Toci En Dur?n la mujer que representaba a Toci nos dice que "Acabada de morir, desoll?banla de la mitad de los muslos para arriba y hasta los codos". De nuevo aqui no se habla de la piel del muslo para hacer una mascara. La imagen de la fiesta del Atlas de Duran confirma esto Ahi, el sacerdote imagen viva de la diosa no lleva mascara de muslo. Se muestran al sacerdote con el maquillaje facial, se ven las facciones . Imagen 24 en la edici?n Porrua de la Historia de las indias de Duran Esperando ser util en la observaci?n a tu ponencia Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Sep 8 16:59:16 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 11:59:16 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4th=E4=3A_?= de objetos rituales a nombres propios 2 Message-ID: Estimado Roberto: Gracias por tus comentarios y observaciones. Creo que tienes raz?n. Deb? de haber especificado en la nota que la cita de Sahag?n, sobre los ritos de la fiesta de ochpaniztli, es la referencia principal a la m?scara de piel de muslo y que las otras tres citas son para contextualizar. En el caso de Dur?n, se trata de una descripci?n alternativa del sacrificio de la mujer en la fiesta de ochpaniztli, en el cual se menciona el sacrificio y el desollamiento de una mujer, y el acto de vestir a un hombre con la piel as? obtenida, aunque no se especifica lo de la m?scara de piel de muslo. En los casos de Motolinia y de Las Casas (este ?ltimo repite las palabras de Motolinia, con cambios m?nimos), se trata del sacrificio de dos mujeres en una fiesta que Las Casas identifica como xocotl huetzi, pero que en el texto de los Memoriales de Motolinia se ubica claramente en la fiesta de izcalli (era anual, no cada cuatro a?os). Cit? estos pasajes de Motolinia y Las Casas porque es otro caso en que hombres se visten con la piel de mujeres, incluyendo m?scaras hechas con este material, aunque no de la piel del muslo. Por el sistema parent?tico que us? en las notas, qued? poco clara mi intenci?n, pero ahora veo que puedo agregar una oraci?n o dos para que quede todo esto m?s expl?cito para el lector, ahorr?ndole el trabajo que t? tuviste que invertir en leer los diferentes textos en busca de la m?scara de piel de muslo. Este texto es parte de un libro en proceso de redacci?n, por lo que aprovechar? tu comentario para afinar esta parte. Esto es lo bueno de foros como los congresos y las listas de correo: podemos obtener algo de retroalimentaci?n antes de publicar nuestros textos, acerc?ndonos un poquito m?s a la quimera de la perfecci?n. Dices "Veo que hay una afinidad cultural religiosa en esta fiesta entre los otomis y los mexicas". De nuevo, tienes raz?n. Aprovecho la oportunidad para agregar que he pasado tres d?cadas buscando diferencias culturales entre otom?es y nahuas. Hablando del Poscl?sico Tard?o y principios de la Colonia, hab?a una cultura bastante homogenea en los valles centrales de M?xico, despu?s de varios siglos de convivencia entre las distintas comunidades ling??sticas. Si cotejamos los datos disponibles sobre las estructuras sociales, el calendario, los dioses, los ritos, la cultura material, el uso del sistema centromexicano de la escritura pintada/esculpida, etc?tera, encontramos que lo que distingu?a a los otom?es de los nahuas era b?sicamente el idioma. Ambos grupos ling??sticos viv?an en los mismos se?or?os, la mayor parte de los cuales eran pluriling?es. Bailaban en las mismas fiestas, compraban las mismas cosas en los mismos mercados, expon?an sus pleitos ante los mismos se?ores en las mismas "casas grandes". Abundaban los calcos, o traducciones literales de palabras, frases metaf?ricas y difrasismos, cada grupo usando sus propios morfemas para expresar las mismas ideas (incluyendo, por supuesto, los t?rminos calend?ricos). Yo pensaba que hab?a encontrado, por fin, un peque?o marcador ?tnico en la cultura material otom? con los bezotes de obsidiana de Xaltocan que reportan Brumfiel, Salcedo y Shafer, pero me coment? Michael E. Smith que se encuentran los mismos adornos faciales en Morelos, donde en el momento de la Conquista s?lo se reporta el uso del n?huatl. En conclusi?n, no encuentro diferencias culturales entre otom?es y nahuas (aparte del idioma) que sean m?s significativas que las variaciones entre distintas comunidades de nahuas, por ejemplo. O sea que no hab?a una cultura otom? distinta a la nahua. Hab?a una cultura centromexicana con la participaci?n de distintos grupos ling??sticos. Cada elemento de la cultura ten?a sus propias fronteras espaciales y temporales, y estas fronteras raramente coincid?an entre s? o con las fronteras ling??sticas. Y por supuesto eran borrosas, permeables y fluctuantes. El resultado fue un mosaico cultural complejo. Me gusta la analog?a de Leopoldo Vali?as, quien hablaba de los rasgos ling??sticos, aunque se puede extender a los dem?s elementos de la cultura: que la realidad no era como en los mapas que elaboramos los investigadores, con fronteras n?tidas y ?reas con colores s?lidos, sino como el piso de una cantina, con manchas traslapadas, salpicaduras y huellas de pies. (Ah? lo dejo; no me des cuerda porque luego no me callo.) Saludos, David _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 04:24:36 2009 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 23:24:36 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4th=E4=3A_?= de objetos rituales a nombres propios 3 Message-ID: Estimado David Si bien es cierto que " Hablando del Poscl?sico Tard?o y principios de la Colonia, hab?a una cultura bastante homogenea en los valles centrales de M?xico ", me parece que no es menos cierto que dentro de ese marco cultural com?n habia profundas y casi insalvables diferencias culturales entre los pueblos, diferencias que surg?an de la religi?n, el cual era el elemento que llenaba todos los poros de la vida social, que era el elemento que permitia a un pueblo ser distinto de otro, que le permit?a constituirse como unidades distintas dentro de lo com?n. Las diferencias religiosas son diferencias culturales . Esa situaci?n religiosa, pol?ticamente se tradujo en la "balcanizaci?n extrema" de los estados y naciones del area mesoamericana que facilit? la conquista espa?ola. Hay un pasaje en los Anales de Cuahtitlan en donde los colhuas y chichimecas (nahuas ) de este sitio van a solicitar el apoyo b?lico de los guerreros de Huexotzinco (tambi?n nahuas) para combatir con los tepanecas (otros nahuas). Los embajadores chichimecas se?alan que "y agregaron que no eran sus projimos los tepanecas cuya arma era la honda , y que no los reconoc?an porque el dios de estos era el llamado Cuecuex" Lo que claramente distingue a los nahuas chichimecas civilizados por los colhuas de los tepanecas nahuas es eso: la religi?n, diferencias que se concentraban en quien era el dios principal y creador de tal o cual pueblo. El que un pueblo reconociera como su dios principal y creador a X , Y o Z n?men desde mi punto de vista no significa que simplemente se cambiaba el gerente general del corporativo religioso y todo el resto del corporativo seguia igual en forma de organizaci?n, plantas, metodos de trabajo, procesos productivos, etc Que tal o cual numen ocupara el papel principal obligaba a reconstruir los mitos, a reasignar papeles a las otras deidades, a generar nuevas deidades y mitos que justificaran que ese dios y no otro era el mero mero principal. En suma a generar sus propias religiones dentro de un marco de estructuras religiosas com?nes. Esto nos remite a una vieja discusi?n, creo que no resuelta: Exist?o una religi?n com?n en mesoam?rica o existeron varias religiones con elementos y estructuras comunes. Yo cre? lo segundo. Lo comun no los hace igual, los hace parecidos Con solo los n?meros del 0 al 9 se pueden crear y escribir infinita cantidad de numeros; 90 y 09 tienen los mismos elementos pero no son lo mismo, no significan lo mismo. Ahora bien las distintas religi?nes, diferencias concentradas en qui?n es el dios principal y creador del pueblo no se quedaban en el eter o en la fe de los individuos, las distintas concepciones religiosas se reflejaron y se expresaron materialmente por ejemplo en decoraciones y formas cer?micas, en formas arquitectonicas, en trazas urbanas; en la elecci?n por vivir en asentamientos dispersos o concentrados, en elegir construir los centros ceremoniales en asentamientos urbanos o en sitios rurales , en elegir construir en llano, en cerros, en mesas geol?gicas, en islas o en riveras de cuerpos lagunares, etc.etc. Un ejemplo aunque en Calixtlahuaca y en Tlatelolco hay templos de planta mixta en honra de Ehecatl s?lo en Calixtlahuaca es este templo el que estructura la traza urbana de la plaza central del centro ceremonial y alrededor de este nucleo se borda el resto de la traza del sitio. Un ejemplo de reestructuraci?n de la religi?n expresada en versiones de los mitos lo encontramos en el dios Xolotl que de ser el dios creador en los mitos que recoge Olmos y Mendieta pasa a ser un pobre cobarde que huye de la muerte en los mitos colhuas mexicas que recoge Sahag?n . Es el caso de Ehecatl el dios de la mascara de ave, cuya imagen aperece en los c?dices del grupo Borgia o en el Borb?nico o en el Aubin, este dios de la mascara de ave perdi? sus atributos divinos que le fueron adjudicados a Ce Acatl Quetzatcoatl cuya imagen como la describe Sahagun s?lo aparece en los c?dices de los informantes de Sahag?n (Tepepulco, Florentino), es un Quetzatcoatl colhua mexica. Si alguien se?ala que Ehecatl es solo una advocaci?n de Quetzatcoatl habia que preguntarse para que una religi?n abiertamente politeista, que usaba el politeismo sin culpa ni verg?enza y con total desenfado, deb?a usar un mecanismo como la advocaci?n , mejor hacia un dios nuevo, le asignaba roles , lo colocaba en la estructura mitica y punto . Las advocaciones son el mecanismo que enmascara el polietismo de closet que se usa en el catolicismo con sus distintos santos , virgenes y las distintas efigies del dios principal, cada una de ella con peculiares atributos y tutelas divinas Los propios otomis se distinguieron entre si a partir de la religi?n en distintas naciones y ello en funci?n del dios que asumieron como su dios principal, lo que les fraccion? en diminutas naciones y permiti? su conquista por Toltecas, Tepanecas, Acohuas o Colhuas Mexicas ello a pesar de las reconocidas virtudes guerreras de los otomis, que hizo que sus mismos conquistadores los usaran de fuerza de choque de avanzada en guerras de conquista o que se pusiera a los otomis para resistir el primer embate como guarda fronteras de los imperios. Los otomis en la ?poca prehisp?nica tuvieron en comun la lengua con variedades dialectales pero desde mi punto de vista estuvieron divididos en distintas naciones en base a la religi?n, mas alla de lo comun hab?a entre las naciones otomis prehisp?nicas diferencias culturales profundas . Repito las diferencias religiosas son tambien diferencias culturales. Estan los otomis que al emigrar a tierras Tlaxcaltecas pintaron el c?dice de Huamantla y se?alan que su dios principal y creador no solo del universo sino de ese pueblo parece ser Eday con su mascara de pato, Eday como equivalente de Ehecatl y a una mujer que por su atav?o es equivalente de Xochiquetzal, esta pareja los crea en la cueva y se?alan como diosa en la guerra a la serpiente con rostro humano que pueden ser Mixcoatl, Cihuacoatl o Acpoxapo. Estan los otomis que pintaron los frescos de Ixmiquilpan que parecen tener a Mixcoatl como su dios principal y creador. Estan los otomis de Quer?taro que la mayoria vienen emigrados de Xilotepec y los menos de Tula y Tlaxcala y que se?alan como pareja creadora a Padre Viejo y Madre vieja , equivalentes a Tonacatecutli y Tonacacihuatl , se?alan a un creador del universo Eday ,equivalente de Ehecatl , pero no le se?alaron su dios principal y creador al escribano espa?ol de la Relaci?n de Quer?taro. Estan los otomis de Xaltocan que se?ala Sahag?n ten?an como su dios principal y creador de todo a la Luna pero los Anales de Cuauhtitlan dicen que el dios de los de Xaltocan es la mujer serpiente Acpoxapo, a lo mejor son lo mismo o son dos distintos momentos de la historia de Xaltocan . Estan los otomis que fueron los mas fieles defensores del imperio Tepaneca, los otomis de las zonas del Ajusco y de Cuajimalpa que parecen haber incorporado al Cuecuex como su dios principal , pero para unos el Cuecuex es Xiuhtecutli pero para Carrasco el Cuecuex es Mixcoatl . Con aprecio y admiraci?n por tu trabajo Saludos Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed Sep 9 15:43:18 2009 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 10:43:18 -0500 Subject: Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4th=E4=3A_?= de objetos rituales a nombres propios 3 Message-ID: Estimado Roberto: Creo que estamos de acuerdo en lo fundamental. Se podr?an discutir los detalles, pero no quisiera distraer a los dem?s listeros con algo que sale un poco del tema de la ling??stica nahua. Lo importante es entender que las ?fronteras? entre aspectos de la religi?n, como las que hab?a entre otros rasgos culturales, no coincid?an necesariamente con las fronteras ling??sticas. Los dioses centromexicanos ten?an sus nombres en cada lengua. Un ejemplo de esto se puede ver en el trabajo de autores como Alfonso Caso, quienes usan los nombres nahuas, mejor conocidos, para las deidades pintadas en los c?dices mixtecos, con esencialmente los mismos atributos que pintaban los escritores nahuas. La lengua pod?a ser un factor en la construcci?n de la identidad ?tnica, pero no era la ?nica. La pertenencia a un se?or?o (que muchas veces era pluiling?e) era un factor importante. Otro era habitar en una determinada regi?n, con todo lo que eso implicaba en cuanto a la econom?a. Si la religi?n mesoamericana se fundamenta en la veneraci?n de diversos aspectos de la naturaleza, el medio ambiente espec?fico de un grupo ten?a que influir en sus manifestaciones ideol?gicas y rituales. En fin, hab?a cierta diversidad dentro de la unidad fundamental de la cultura centromexicana del momento de la Conquista, y es posible enfatizar cualquiera de estos dos apectos con base en la evidencia disponible. Saludos David De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de roberto romero Enviado el: martes, 08 de septiembre de 2009 11:25 p.m. Para: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Ihuimecatl e Imexxayac/Ehmib?th?: de objetos rituales a nombres propios 3 Estimado David Si bien es cierto que " Hablando del Poscl?sico Tard?o y principios de la Colonia, hab?a una cultura bastante homogenea en los valles centrales de M?xico ", me parece que no es menos cierto que dentro de ese marco cultural com?n habia profundas y casi insalvables diferencias culturales entre los pueblos, diferencias que surg?an de la religi?n, el cual era el elemento que llenaba todos los poros de la vida social, que era el elemento que permitia a un pueblo ser distinto de otro, que le permit?a constituirse como unidades distintas dentro de lo com?n. Las diferencias religiosas son diferencias culturales . Esa situaci?n religiosa, pol?ticamente se tradujo en la "balcanizaci?n extrema" de los estados y naciones del area mesoamericana que facilit? la conquista espa?ola. Hay un pasaje en los Anales de Cuahtitlan en donde los colhuas y chichimecas (nahuas ) de este sitio van a solicitar el apoyo b?lico de los guerreros de Huexotzinco (tambi?n nahuas) para combatir con los tepanecas (otros nahuas). Los embajadores chichimecas se?alan que "y agregaron que no eran sus projimos los tepanecas cuya arma era la honda , y que no los reconoc?an porque el dios de estos era el llamado Cuecuex" Lo que claramente distingue a los nahuas chichimecas civilizados por los colhuas de los tepanecas nahuas es eso: la religi?n, diferencias que se concentraban en quien era el dios principal y creador de tal o cual pueblo. El que un pueblo reconociera como su dios principal y creador a X , Y o Z n?men desde mi punto de vista no significa que simplemente se cambiaba el gerente general del corporativo religioso y todo el resto del corporativo seguia igual en forma de organizaci?n, plantas, metodos de trabajo, procesos productivos, etc Que tal o cual numen ocupara el papel principal obligaba a reconstruir los mitos, a reasignar papeles a las otras deidades, a generar nuevas deidades y mitos que justificaran que ese dios y no otro era el mero mero principal. En suma a generar sus propias religiones dentro de un marco de estructuras religiosas com?nes. Esto nos remite a una vieja discusi?n, creo que no resuelta: Exist?o una religi?n com?n en mesoam?rica o existeron varias religiones con elementos y estructuras comunes. Yo cre? lo segundo. Lo comun no los hace igual, los hace parecidos Con solo los n?meros del 0 al 9 se pueden crear y escribir infinita cantidad de numeros; 90 y 09 tienen los mismos elementos pero no son lo mismo, no significan lo mismo. Ahora bien las distintas religi?nes, diferencias concentradas en qui?n es el dios principal y creador del pueblo no se quedaban en el eter o en la fe de los individuos, las distintas concepciones religiosas se reflejaron y se expresaron materialmente por ejemplo en decoraciones y formas cer?micas, en formas arquitectonicas, en trazas urbanas; en la elecci?n por vivir en asentamientos dispersos o concentrados, en elegir construir los centros ceremoniales en asentamientos urbanos o en sitios rurales , en elegir construir en llano, en cerros, en mesas geol?gicas, en islas o en riveras de cuerpos lagunares, etc.etc. Un ejemplo aunque en Calixtlahuaca y en Tlatelolco hay templos de planta mixta en honra de Ehecatl s?lo en Calixtlahuaca es este templo el que estructura la traza urbana de la plaza central del centro ceremonial y alrededor de este nucleo se borda el resto de la traza del sitio. Un ejemplo de reestructuraci?n de la religi?n expresada en versiones de los mitos lo encontramos en el dios Xolotl que de ser el dios creador en los mitos que recoge Olmos y Mendieta pasa a ser un pobre cobarde que huye de la muerte en los mitos colhuas mexicas que recoge Sahag?n . Es el caso de Ehecatl el dios de la mascara de ave, cuya imagen aperece en los c?dices del grupo Borgia o en el Borb?nico o en el Aubin, este dios de la mascara de ave perdi? sus atributos divinos que le fueron adjudicados a Ce Acatl Quetzatcoatl cuya imagen como la describe Sahagun s?lo aparece en los c?dices de los informantes de Sahag?n (Tepepulco, Florentino), es un Quetzatcoatl colhua mexica. Si alguien se?ala que Ehecatl es solo una advocaci?n de Quetzatcoatl habia que preguntarse para que una religi?n abiertamente politeista, que usaba el politeismo sin culpa ni verg?enza y con total desenfado, deb?a usar un mecanismo como la advocaci?n , mejor hacia un dios nuevo, le asignaba roles , lo colocaba en la estructura mitica y punto . Las advocaciones son el mecanismo que enmascara el polietismo de closet que se usa en el catolicismo con sus distintos santos , virgenes y las distintas efigies del dios principal, cada una de ella con peculiares atributos y tutelas divinas Los propios otomis se distinguieron entre si a partir de la religi?n en distintas naciones y ello en funci?n del dios que asumieron como su dios principal, lo que les fraccion? en diminutas naciones y permiti? su conquista por Toltecas, Tepanecas, Acohuas o Colhuas Mexicas ello a pesar de las reconocidas virtudes guerreras de los otomis, que hizo que sus mismos conquistadores los usaran de fuerza de choque de avanzada en guerras de conquista o que se pusiera a los otomis para resistir el primer embate como guarda fronteras de los imperios. Los otomis en la ?poca prehisp?nica tuvieron en comun la lengua con variedades dialectales pero desde mi punto de vista estuvieron divididos en distintas naciones en base a la religi?n, mas alla de lo comun hab?a entre las naciones otomis prehisp?nicas diferencias culturales profundas . Repito las diferencias religiosas son tambien diferencias culturales. Estan los otomis que al emigrar a tierras Tlaxcaltecas pintaron el c?dice de Huamantla y se?alan que su dios principal y creador no solo del universo sino de ese pueblo parece ser Eday con su mascara de pato, Eday como equivalente de Ehecatl y a una mujer que por su atav?o es equivalente de Xochiquetzal, esta pareja los crea en la cueva y se?alan como diosa en la guerra a la serpiente con rostro humano que pueden ser Mixcoatl, Cihuacoatl o Acpoxapo. Estan los otomis que pintaron los frescos de Ixmiquilpan que parecen tener a Mixcoatl como su dios principal y creador. Estan los otomis de Quer?taro que la mayoria vienen emigrados de Xilotepec y los menos de Tula y Tlaxcala y que se?alan como pareja creadora a Padre Viejo y Madre vieja , equivalentes a Tonacatecutli y Tonacacihuatl , se?alan a un creador del universo Eday ,equivalente de Ehecatl , pero no le se?alaron su dios principal y creador al escribano espa?ol de la Relaci?n de Quer?taro. Estan los otomis de Xaltocan que se?ala Sahag?n ten?an como su dios principal y creador de todo a la Luna pero los Anales de Cuauhtitlan dicen que el dios de los de Xaltocan es la mujer serpiente Acpoxapo, a lo mejor son lo mismo o son dos distintos momentos de la historia de Xaltocan . Estan los otomis que fueron los mas fieles defensores del imperio Tepaneca, los otomis de las zonas del Ajusco y de Cuajimalpa que parecen haber incorporado al Cuecuex como su dios principal , pero para unos el Cuecuex es Xiuhtecutli pero para Carrasco el Cuecuex es Mixcoatl . Con aprecio y admiraci?n por tu trabajo Saludos Roberto Romero Gutierrez _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Thu Sep 10 10:29:27 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:29:27 +0200 Subject: -eh and -huah Message-ID: Campbell/Karttunen and Sullivan are not very clear on the various uses of -eh and -huah as regards quantities. Could anyone please confirm that I'm right on the following please? ONE who has ONE fish - michhuah MANY who have ONE fish - michhuahque ONE who has MANY fishes - mimichhuah MANY who have MANY fishes - mimichhuahque Thank you!!! Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 10 11:39:27 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 07:39:27 -0400 Subject: -eh and -huah In-Reply-To: <000301ca3201$99cee670$99eb3697@susana> Message-ID: Susana, I believe the first element is always the simple noun stem, not the plural form. So, the quantity would not be explicit. This is a common feature of Nahuatl, quantity ambiguity. The inanimate nouns, for example. But "Michmehhuah" sounds funny to me. Michael Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Campbell/Karttunen and Sullivan are not very clear on the various uses > of -eh and -huah as regards quantities. > Could anyone please confirm that I'm right on the following please? > > ONE who has ONE fish - michhuah > MANY who have ONE fish - michhuahque > ONE who has MANY fishes - mimichhuah > MANY who have MANY fishes - mimichhuahque > > Thank you!!! > > Susana > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Sep 10 17:26:02 2009 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:26:02 -0400 Subject: -eh and -huah In-Reply-To: <20090910073927.k1o978ose84s40s0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: But Susana isn't querying about michmehhuah. She seems to be inquiring about a possessor noun derived from the reduplicated distributive form of mich-in, namely mihmich- I would hazard the guess that it would be acceptable with the sense of 'possessor of several different sorts of fish.' BTW, the plural is -huahqueh with a final saltillo/glottal stop, not huahque. Fran Karttunen On Sep 10, 2009, at 7:39 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Susana, > > I believe the first element is always the simple noun stem, not the > plural form. > So, the quantity would not be explicit. This is a common feature of > Nahuatl, quantity ambiguity. The inanimate nouns, for example. > > But "Michmehhuah" sounds funny to me. > > Michael > > > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > >> Campbell/Karttunen and Sullivan are not very clear on the various >> uses >> of -eh and -huah as regards quantities. >> Could anyone please confirm that I'm right on the following please? >> >> ONE who has ONE fish - michhuah >> MANY who have ONE fish - michhuahque >> ONE who has MANY fishes - mimichhuah >> MANY who have MANY fishes - mimichhuahque >> >> Thank you!!! >> >> Susana >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx Thu Sep 10 23:21:13 2009 From: cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx (Ignacio Silva) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:21:13 -0700 Subject: -eh and -huah In-Reply-To: <000301ca3201$99cee670$99eb3697@susana> Message-ID: Susana, es lo siguiente: ? Cuando tu tienes un solo pez, utilizas el sustantivo michin, le suprimes la terminacion in y le agregas la terminaci?n hua. Que es un sufijo que permite poseer al sustantivo. ? MICHHUA. ? Si son varias las personas que tienen un solo pez utilizas la palabra anterior MICHHUA, el que tiene pez, y le agragas la terminacion queh, que sirve para pluralizar un sustantivo poseido mediante un sufijo (e - hua). ? MICHHUAQUEH. ? Si una sola persona tiene varios peces, entonces lo que se hace es, tambien utilizar el sustantvo michin, solamente que ahora vas a pluralizar el sustantivo y esto se hace duplicando la primer silaba, michin, pez; mimichin, peces. Utilizas este ultimo quitandole la terminacion in?y le a?ades el sufijo posesivo hua ? MIMICHHUA. ? Si en cambio hay varias personas que tienen o poseen varios peces, entonces lo que haces es pluralizar el sustantivo michin, que ya sabes que es mimichin, y se le a?ade el sufijo posesivo hua ademas del sufijo pluralizador queh, que al a?adirse a hua, se entiende que los que poseen el sustantivo son varias personas. ? MIMICHHUAQUEH ? Saludos y ojala te sirva este breve explicacion. ? Ignacio Silva. --- El jue 10-sep-09, Susana Moraleda escribi?: De:: Susana Moraleda Asunto: [Nahuat-l] -eh and -huah A: "Nahuat-l (messages)" Fecha: jueves 10 de septiembre de 2009, 5:29 Campbell/Karttunen and Sullivan are not very clear on the various uses of -eh and -huah as regards quantities. Could anyone please confirm that I'm right on the following please? ONE who has ONE fish - michhuah MANY who have ONE fish - michhuahque ONE who has MANY fishes - mimichhuah MANY who have MANY fishes - mimichhuahque Thank you!!! Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl Encuentra las mejores recetas en Yahoo! Cocina. http://mx.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 11 20:37:56 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:37:56 -0400 Subject: Susana's *mimichhuah Message-ID: Dr. Karttunen et alii/aliae: There is no doubt that -huah/-eh can itself take the plural suffix -queh. I don't think that's Susana's question. Ihe problem I have with her *mimichhuah(queh) or *mimicheh(queh) is the use of *plural noun* before -huah/-eh. I've never seen it in "classical" Nahuatl. (I'm assuming Susana's *mimichin is intended to be a plural. It sounds good but I've never seen that plural for 'fish'.) Maybe combining plural nouns with the possessor suffix is something that modern Nahuatl does, but can anyone supply examples of this kind of behavior in "classical" Nahuatl? One seems to get only things such as mileh...cihuahqueh..caleh...altepehuahqueh...nacazeh (where in fact *two* ears are implied...). Any thoughts, grammarians? Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 11 20:44:46 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:44:46 -0400 Subject: Susana's *mimichhuah In-Reply-To: <20090911163756.z9ayedxgggc804oo@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I have, of course, seen mi:michtin for the fish plural. I don't have Susana's original message, so i can't check what she wrote. in any event, mimichhuah/mimicheh...sounds very...ungrammatical. :-) abierto, michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Dr. Karttunen et alii/aliae: > > There is no doubt that -huah/-eh can itself take the plural suffix > -queh. I don't think that's Susana's question. > > Ihe problem I have with her *mimichhuah(queh) or *mimicheh(queh) is the > use of *plural noun* before -huah/-eh. I've never seen it in > "classical" Nahuatl. (I'm assuming Susana's *mimichin is intended to be > a plural. It sounds good but I've never seen that plural for 'fish'.) > > Maybe combining plural nouns with the possessor suffix is something > that modern Nahuatl does, but can anyone supply examples of this kind > of behavior in "classical" Nahuatl? > > One seems to get only things such as > mileh...cihuahqueh..caleh...altepehuahqueh...nacazeh (where in fact > *two* ears are implied...). > > Any thoughts, grammarians? > > Michael > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 04:12:36 2009 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 23:12:36 -0500 Subject: dioses y numenes de las veintenas de los cerros Message-ID: Estimados foristas Pongo a su consideraci?n mis traducciones de los siguientes deidades o n?menes y expongo mis dudas , solicitando su generosa colaboraci?n ya que carezco de un ejemplar del c?dice Florentino y en la poblaci?n donde vivo no hay un ejemplar de ?ste c?dice ni siquiera en la biblioteca de la capital del estado. En la primera fiesta de los cerros en la veintena de Atlcahualo se sacrificaba a una ni?a Quetzalxoch, as? aparece escrito en la Historia General... edici?n de Lopez Austin quien no traduce y anota: nombre de un cerrro. 1.- Yo pienso que Quetzalxoch es Quetzalxochitl y traduzco el nombre como Flor preciosa y valiosa , asumiendo quetzal como t?rmino que indica lo precioso y lo valioso, aunque literalmente sea pluma de un ave llamada quetzal,que por ser considerada muy valiosa y preciosa en muchas ocasiones ten?a el significado de valioso antes que de emplumado. Si Quetzal xoch es realmente Quetzalxochitl este es el nombre invertido de la diosa Xochiquetzal, ?acaso cuando la diosa era ni?a? Esto lectura de Quezatl Xoch a Quetzalxochitl la pongo a consideraci?n y tambien pregunto como aparece el nombre de QuetzalXoch en el C?dice Florentino 2.- Quetzalxochitl podria ser tambien flor emplumada si usamos los mismos criterios que se usan para la traducci?n que comunmente se hace de Quetzatcoatl Esta traducci?n de Flor emplumada lo pongo a consideraci?n 3.- Mi Tercera duda es Quetzal Coatl seria en traducci?n literal Serpiente Preciosa y creo que se le llama Serpiente Emplumada por las imagenes de esta deidad en c?dices y representaciones escult?ricas como las del famoso Templo de Teotihuacan . Cual es su opini?n y la traducci?n correcta de QuetzalCoatl. En la segunda de tres fiestas de los cerros en la veintena de Tepeihuitl se sacrifican a cuatro imagenes vivas de diosas, n?menes o cerros. Mi cuarta duda es la primera mujer sacrificada se llama Tepoxoch asi esta en la edici?n de la Historia de ... Sahagun editada por L?pez Austin quien lo traduce como "Flor de Espalda". Boturini que toma sus datos de Torquemada tambien le llama Tepoxoch y la traduce como Flor de hierro . Por la ignorancia de este material en la ?poca prehisp?nica yo leo tal traducci?n como Flor de metal. Por otro lado Garibay en su edici?n de la Historia de .. la escribe como Tepexoch no Tepoxoch y la traduce como Flor de cerro 4.- Cual es el nombre que aparece en el C?dice Florentino Tepoxoch o Tepexoch y cual ser?a la traducci?n. 5.- Otra mujer sacrificada tiene como nombre Xochtecatl en la edici?n de Lopez Austin y la traduce como la de Xochtlan Boturini le llama Xochiecatl flor de viento Garibay lo escibe Xochitecatl , y la llama por ello Habitante de Xochitlan, y a?ade Entre Flores. El Xochitecatl es el nombre de un cerro de Tlaxcala con un asentamiento prehisp?nico desde el precl?sico Cual es el nombre que aparece en el C?dice Florentino y cual ser?a la traducci?n 6.- tambien se sacrifica a la imagen viva de la diosa Mayahuel . Boturini lo traduce como "la que no pudo ser" . Garibay y Lopez Austin no dan traducci?n Cual es en su opini?n la traducci?n literal y la traducci?n correcta de Mayahuel 7.- Finalmente se sacrifica a un hombre lamado Milnahuatl Garibay lo traduce como el cercano a la milpa Boturini como el de la milpa de riego Como aparece el nombre en el c?dice floerentino y cual es su traducci?n. Por su tiempo y generosas respuestas de antemano mil gracias Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Mon Sep 14 22:54:28 2009 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 00:54:28 +0200 Subject: Mimichhuah Message-ID: * Michin: pescado, Molina 11,56r, Fish, R.Andrews Intr.453 Sah.11 58 Iztac michin, white fish Plural: mimichtin, Sah 11,58,61 and 68. * Mimich is a pers.noun, one of the Mexicah chiefs who founded Tenochtitlan. * Mimichchoh: poss.noun on mich-in with reduplication, decorated with motifs in the form of fish. * Michhuah: poss.noun on mich-in. Fisherman, R.Andrews Intr.453 Que tienne pescados, pescador Launey pag.100 Inhabitant of Michhuahcan Plural: michhuahqueh, Sah.10,188 * Mimichhuah could be a modern Nahuatl word, a poss.noun on mich-in with reduplication. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Tue Sep 15 05:58:06 2009 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:58:06 -0700 Subject: Tocayo:tlahtolli (Nominals) Message-ID: Several of us... put this together from Karttunen, Campbell, and Andrews... Tezozomoc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20090914_NonimalFrame_Nahuatl.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 29745 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Sep 15 15:19:04 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:19:04 -0400 Subject: Mimichhuah In-Reply-To: <749A0120F89F4BA1A22E2C3767D7626B@baert> Message-ID: Susana: Could you send me your original message about the use of -huah/-eh? I'm preparing something for the group and would like to have your original message in hand as a reference point. Thanks! Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Sep 15 16:08:29 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 12:08:29 -0400 Subject: el correo electronico de Susana In-Reply-To: <20090915111904.anz65zs5wowc8gkw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: gracias, todos, de la lluvia de respuestas: sin duvida, tengo ahora el mensaje original de Susana. :-) Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 17 07:08:22 2009 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 00:08:22 -0700 Subject: Aspects of Clasical Nahuatl Phonology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classical Nahuatl as a topic of phonology, syntax, and lexicon is an immense subject. It is a subject plagued by missing primary sources (Andrews, 1975), linguistic neglect, cultural stigmatisms (Tezozomoc, 1997), and critical analysis. It was not until 1975 that Andrew's presented a concise analysis of Classical Nahuatl's grammar. Andrews's own efforts has allowed for us to see where he had faltered in his analysis of Nahuatl assimilations. http://www.scribd.com/doc/19834514/Aspects-of-Classical-Nahuatl-Phonology Aspects of Classical Nahuatl Phonology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 17 16:04:47 2009 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:04:47 -0700 Subject: Tocayo:htlahtolli Nahuatl Nominal.... Message-ID: http://www.scribd.com/doc/19834659/Nahuatl-Tocayohtlahtolli-Nahuatl-Nominal-Frame This link is to a summary table of the Nahuatl Nominal ... Tezozomoc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mcdo0030 at umn.edu Mon Sep 21 14:57:42 2009 From: mcdo0030 at umn.edu (Kelly McDonough) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:57:42 -0500 Subject: Course Readings for Nahua Literature, Language, Culture class? Message-ID: Piyali listeros, I am putting together an interdisciplinary course (undergrad/grad level) on Nahua Literature, Language, Culture and need your help. >>From your respective discipline, what would be a "must read" (or any other suggestions) for a course such as this? Please respond off list to mcdo0030 at umn.edu. I will compile the responses and share with all contributors. Kelly McDonough University of Minnesota - Twin Cities Department of Spanish & Portuguese Studies 612/624-5529 mcdo0030 at umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Sep 23 11:50:17 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:50:17 +0200 Subject: eh/huah Message-ID: Belated thanks to Frances, Michael, Ignacio and Martin for enlightening comments. Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Sep 23 11:52:59 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:52:59 +0200 Subject: nahuac and possessed plural Message-ID: Should NAHUAC be added before or after HUAN in possessed plural nouns? -- NOCALNAHUACHUAN or NOCALHUANNAHUAC? and with ALTEPETL in the singular, should the UH be included? -- NALTEPEUHNAHUAC or NALTEPEHUAC? Thanks for any help. Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 23 13:29:19 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:29:19 -0400 Subject: eh/huah In-Reply-To: <006901ca3c44$6de2c020$e0e93697@susana> Message-ID: Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Belated thanks to Frances, Michael, Ignacio and Martin for > enlightening comments. > > Susana Susana: I'm tardy in getting a more comprehensive analysis of -eh/-huah usage out to you. I will in time. In short, the evidence in the Florentine is overwhelmingly against the use of plural nouns with -eh/-huah. There are a couple of exceptions, which may be explained by a kind of analogy. More later. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 23 14:06:24 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:06:24 -0400 Subject: nahuac and possessed plural In-Reply-To: <006a01ca3c44$6e8e6970$e0e93697@susana> Message-ID: Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Should NAHUAC be added before or after HUAN in possessed plural nouns? > > -- NOCALNAHUACHUAN or NOCALHUANNAHUAC? > > and with ALTEPETL in the singular, should the UH be included? > > -- NALTEPEUHNAHUAC or NALTEPEHUAC? > > Thanks for any help. > > Susana Susana, quiere decir "nocaleh inahuac" y "naltepehuah inahuac"? No se exactamente lo que dice. Pero, no puede anadir -nahuac a un nombre posesivo tal como "caleh". hay que formar una expresion segunda composita de un pronombre posesivo y una posposicion. Cecec? ;-) Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Sep 23 16:46:06 2009 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:46:06 +0200 Subject: nahuac and possessed plural Message-ID: Gracias Michael, Yo estaba tratando de ver el uso de NAHUAC por ejemplo para decir CERCA DE MIS CASAS (nocalnahuachuan/nocalhuannahuac??), pero me parece que tienes razon, que tiene que ser en dos partes. Seria correcto entonces NOCALHUAN INNAHUAC? Por lo que toca al sufijo UH, por ejemplo para decir CERCA DE LA CIUDAD, consult? el libro de Sullivan y me parece que ALTEPEUHNAHUAC no esta bien, y entonces lo correcto es decir ALTEPENAHUAC (el sufijo UH se usa solo con los posesivos, por ejemplo NALTEPEUH, mi ciudad) S ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McCafferty" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] nahuac and possessed plural > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > >> Should NAHUAC be added before or after HUAN in possessed plural nouns? >> >> -- NOCALNAHUACHUAN or NOCALHUANNAHUAC? >> >> and with ALTEPETL in the singular, should the UH be included? >> >> -- NALTEPEUHNAHUAC or NALTEPEHUAC? >> >> Thanks for any help. >> >> Susana > > Susana, quiere decir "nocaleh inahuac" y "naltepehuah inahuac"? > > No se exactamente lo que dice. > > Pero, no puede anadir -nahuac a un nombre posesivo tal como "caleh". > hay que formar una expresion segunda composita de un pronombre posesivo > y una posposicion. > > Cecec? > > ;-) > > Michael > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 23 22:02:00 2009 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:02:00 -0400 Subject: nahuac and possessed plural In-Reply-To: <008a01ca3c6d$5a735490$e0e93697@susana> Message-ID: Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Gracias Michael, > Yo estaba tratando de ver el uso de NAHUAC por ejemplo para decir CERCA DE > MIS CASAS (nocalnahuachuan/nocalhuannahuac??), pero me parece que tienes > razon, que tiene que ser en dos partes. Seria correcto entonces NOCALHUAN > INNAHUAC? Ah. Comprendo ahora lo que haces. Quema. "Nocalhuan innahuac" mihtoa. Inon cenca cualli. No se permite -huan + nahuac en la lengua classica, que yo sepa. > > Por lo que toca al sufijo UH, por ejemplo para decir CERCA DE LA CIUDAD, > consult? el libro de Sullivan y me parece que ALTEPEUHNAHUAC no esta bien, y > entonces lo correcto es decir ALTEPENAHUAC (el sufijo UH se usa solo con los > posesivos, por ejemplo NALTEPEUH, mi ciudad) Si, precisamente. Altepenahuac puede se decir, y tambien naltepeuh, de la manera gramatical que usted describe. Buena suerte, buenos trabajos, Michael > > S > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael McCafferty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] nahuac and possessed plural > > >> Quoting Susana Moraleda : >> >>> Should NAHUAC be added before or after HUAN in possessed plural nouns? >>> >>> -- NOCALNAHUACHUAN or NOCALHUANNAHUAC? >>> >>> and with ALTEPETL in the singular, should the UH be included? >>> >>> -- NALTEPEUHNAHUAC or NALTEPEHUAC? >>> >>> Thanks for any help. >>> >>> Susana >> >> Susana, quiere decir "nocaleh inahuac" y "naltepehuah inahuac"? >> >> No se exactamente lo que dice. >> >> Pero, no puede anadir -nahuac a un nombre posesivo tal como "caleh". >> hay que formar una expresion segunda composita de un pronombre posesivo >> y una posposicion. >> >> Cecec? >> >> ;-) >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl