From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 1 01:19:43 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:19:43 -0400 Subject: yhcuiliuhtica In-Reply-To: <14844.1270041687@megared.net.mx> Message-ID: Ken, Tomas, y otros listeros, The explanation below is not quite right, I don't think. Let's back up for a moment. The original form that Ken wrote was "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". We can write this in, shall we say?, the Andrewsian Alphabet as in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuticah I'm assuming "ixci" is an original copy error or a Ken keyboarding error standing for icxi 'foot/feet'. ihcuiliutica is not a "present progressive". This is an example of how an intransitive verb can join with -ti-cah to produce what is usually translated into English as an adjective, sometimes a noun: chica:hua become strong chica:uticah it is strong, or something that is strong tlacoxe:lihui divide in half tlahcoxe:liuhticah it is divided in half; something divided in half 'adjacent to the foot/feet it is written, there is written, something got written' (I like the last one best). Michael Quoting t_amaya at megared.net.mx: > > Hallo Ken Kitayama, > > BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } > My first reading is. "on his foot, it is written ...", my seccond: "on > his foot, it is painted" > > Explaining: ca and oc (tica and toc) can be used for a resultant > state, if you want to express the progressive tense you have to say > e.g. tlahcuiliuhtica, quiihcuiliuhtica (he is writting (something), he > is painting it); i.e. we have to use the "thing" or "accusative" > particle. > > For me, according to the context, the verb may mean "to write" or > "to paint". > > Exemple in nahuat of Cuetzalan: in quinequía, choloz ilpihtoc > (ilpihtica) yn axno (the donkey is tied because he wanted to escape) > > You also have the particle tech, whose meaning is precisely "on". > Pay attention: depending on the context the text could mean: "on his > food, that is painted ..." ; it depends if you read: yn itech yxci, > ihcuiliuhtica, or: in itech ixci ihcuiliuhtica. > > Exemples: Yn itech imetz (foot in Cuetzalan nahuat), ihcuiliuhtica > ce totot; on his foot, it is painted a bird. In itech > imetz-ihcuiliuhtica, motta ce totot (on his painted foot one can see a > bird). > > I hope it helps you > > Nimitztlapaloa. > > Tomas Amaya > On Sun 28/03/10 6:30 PM , "Ken Kitayama" kk2443 at columbia.edu sent: > My name is Ken Kitayama; I am a senior at Columbia University > working on a project dealing with corporal images in colonial New > Spain. I have come across a 17th century document that uses the > phrase "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". I have two questions. First, > from my understanding, the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" as written is in the > present progressive tense, but this interpretation does not make sense > within the rest of the document. So I was wondering if anyone had > seen the "-ca" prefix used as a verb of a resultant state ("it is > painted/inscribed"). Secondly, I am having trouble interpreting the > meaning of the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" itself. I would like to know > whether it has to do with the verb "to paint" as in applying pigment > to the surface of the skin, or if it has to do more with an > interpretation like "to inscribe", where the skin is actually broken > and pigment is introduced inside the skin itself. Thanks for your > help. > -- > Ken Kitayama > Columbia College 2010 > 3620 Lerner Hall > New York, NY 10027 > ------------------------- > Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 1 01:25:57 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:25:57 -0400 Subject: lo siento mucho In-Reply-To: <20100331211943.t69qrpopk4wkccc0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: THREE TYPOS OF MY OWN BELOW: Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Ken, Tomas, y otros listeros, > > The explanation below is not quite right, I don't think. Let's back up > for a moment. > > The original form that Ken wrote was "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". > > We can write this in, shall we say?, the Andrewsian Alphabet as > > in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuticah THIS SHOULD READ: in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuhticah > > > I'm assuming "ixci" is an original copy error or a Ken keyboarding > error standing for icxi 'foot/feet'. > > > ihcuiliutica AND THIS SHOULD BE ihcuiliuhtica is not a "present progressive". This is an example of how > an intransitive verb can join with -ti-cah to produce what is usually > translated into English as an adjective, sometimes a noun: > > chica:hua become strong > chica:uticah AND THAT SHOULD BE chica:uhticah it is strong, or something that is strong > > tlacoxe:lihui divide in half > tlahcoxe:liuhticah it is divided in half; something divided in half > > > 'adjacent to the foot/feet it is written, there is written, something > got written' (I like the last one best). > > Michael > > > > Quoting t_amaya at megared.net.mx: > >> >> Hallo Ken Kitayama, >> >> BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } >> My first reading is. "on his foot, it is written ...", my seccond: "on >> his foot, it is painted" >> >> Explaining: ca and oc (tica and toc) can be used for a resultant >> state, if you want to express the progressive tense you have to say >> e.g. tlahcuiliuhtica, quiihcuiliuhtica (he is writting (something), he >> is painting it); i.e. we have to use the "thing" or "accusative" >> particle. >> >> For me, according to the context, the verb may mean "to write" or >> "to paint". >> >> Exemple in nahuat of Cuetzalan: in quinequía, choloz ilpihtoc >> (ilpihtica) yn axno (the donkey is tied because he wanted to escape) >> >> You also have the particle tech, whose meaning is precisely "on". >> Pay attention: depending on the context the text could mean: "on his >> food, that is painted ..." ; it depends if you read: yn itech yxci, >> ihcuiliuhtica, or: in itech ixci ihcuiliuhtica. >> >> Exemples: Yn itech imetz (foot in Cuetzalan nahuat), ihcuiliuhtica >> ce totot; on his foot, it is painted a bird. In itech >> imetz-ihcuiliuhtica, motta ce totot (on his painted foot one can see a >> bird). >> >> I hope it helps you >> >> Nimitztlapaloa. >> >> Tomas Amaya >> On Sun 28/03/10 6:30 PM , "Ken Kitayama" kk2443 at columbia.edu sent: >> My name is Ken Kitayama; I am a senior at Columbia University >> working on a project dealing with corporal images in colonial New >> Spain. I have come across a 17th century document that uses the >> phrase "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". I have two questions. First, >> from my understanding, the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" as written is in the >> present progressive tense, but this interpretation does not make sense >> within the rest of the document. So I was wondering if anyone had >> seen the "-ca" prefix used as a verb of a resultant state ("it is >> painted/inscribed"). Secondly, I am having trouble interpreting the >> meaning of the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" itself. I would like to know >> whether it has to do with the verb "to paint" as in applying pigment >> to the surface of the skin, or if it has to do more with an >> interpretation like "to inscribe", where the skin is actually broken >> and pigment is introduced inside the skin itself. Thanks for your >> help. >> -- >> Ken Kitayama >> Columbia College 2010 >> 3620 Lerner Hall >> New York, NY 10027 >> ------------------------- >> Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 1 21:05:13 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 17:05:13 -0400 Subject: lo siento mucho In-Reply-To: <20100331212557.luiuruqio4sc88c0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Not to be a dead cahuayo, "yxci" could of course be 'his/her/its foot/feet', the possessor prefix i: fusing with the i of icxi when written. Tomas's "on" is o.k., too. -tech has several meaning, the essential one being "contact with the surface on the side of something". Examples of meanings that are different in English include: cuauhtitech in nemi 'it lives in the trees' caltech or caltitech 'against the house' 'touching the house' cuauhtitech quimilpia:yah in to:to:meh 'they were tying birds to sticks' no tech yetinemi 'i've got it on me' i:tech monequi 'he needs it' (in this translation "tech" disappears) Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > THREE TYPOS OF MY OWN BELOW: > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> Ken, Tomas, y otros listeros, >> >> The explanation below is not quite right, I don't think. Let's back up >> for a moment. >> >> The original form that Ken wrote was "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". >> >> We can write this in, shall we say?, the Andrewsian Alphabet as >> >> in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuticah > > > THIS SHOULD READ: > > in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuhticah > >> >> >> I'm assuming "ixci" is an original copy error or a Ken keyboarding >> error standing for icxi 'foot/feet'. >> >> >> ihcuiliutica > > AND THIS SHOULD BE > > ihcuiliuhtica > > > is not a "present progressive". This is an example of how >> an intransitive verb can join with -ti-cah to produce what is usually >> translated into English as an adjective, sometimes a noun: >> >> chica:hua become strong >> chica:uticah > > AND THAT SHOULD BE chica:uhticah > > > > > > it is strong, or something that is strong >> >> tlacoxe:lihui divide in half >> tlahcoxe:liuhticah it is divided in half; something divided in half >> >> >> 'adjacent to the foot/feet it is written, there is written, something >> got written' (I like the last one best). >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> Quoting t_amaya at megared.net.mx: >> >>> >>> Hallo Ken Kitayama, >>> >>> BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } >>> My first reading is. "on his foot, it is written ...", my seccond: "on >>> his foot, it is painted" >>> >>> Explaining: ca and oc (tica and toc) can be used for a resultant >>> state, if you want to express the progressive tense you have to say >>> e.g. tlahcuiliuhtica, quiihcuiliuhtica (he is writting (something), he >>> is painting it); i.e. we have to use the "thing" or "accusative" >>> particle. >>> >>> For me, according to the context, the verb may mean "to write" or >>> "to paint". >>> >>> Exemple in nahuat of Cuetzalan: in quinequía, choloz ilpihtoc >>> (ilpihtica) yn axno (the donkey is tied because he wanted to escape) >>> >>> You also have the particle tech, whose meaning is precisely "on". >>> Pay attention: depending on the context the text could mean: "on his >>> food, that is painted ..." ; it depends if you read: yn itech yxci, >>> ihcuiliuhtica, or: in itech ixci ihcuiliuhtica. >>> >>> Exemples: Yn itech imetz (foot in Cuetzalan nahuat), ihcuiliuhtica >>> ce totot; on his foot, it is painted a bird. In itech >>> imetz-ihcuiliuhtica, motta ce totot (on his painted foot one can see a >>> bird). >>> >>> I hope it helps you >>> >>> Nimitztlapaloa. >>> >>> Tomas Amaya >>> On Sun 28/03/10 6:30 PM , "Ken Kitayama" kk2443 at columbia.edu sent: >>> My name is Ken Kitayama; I am a senior at Columbia University >>> working on a project dealing with corporal images in colonial New >>> Spain. I have come across a 17th century document that uses the >>> phrase "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". I have two questions. First, >>> from my understanding, the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" as written is in the >>> present progressive tense, but this interpretation does not make sense >>> within the rest of the document. So I was wondering if anyone had >>> seen the "-ca" prefix used as a verb of a resultant state ("it is >>> painted/inscribed"). Secondly, I am having trouble interpreting the >>> meaning of the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" itself. I would like to know >>> whether it has to do with the verb "to paint" as in applying pigment >>> to the surface of the skin, or if it has to do more with an >>> interpretation like "to inscribe", where the skin is actually broken >>> and pigment is introduced inside the skin itself. Thanks for your >>> help. >>> -- >>> Ken Kitayama >>> Columbia College 2010 >>> 3620 Lerner Hall >>> New York, NY 10027 >>> ------------------------- >>> Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 01:46:16 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 21:46:16 -0400 Subject: present progressive and more In-Reply-To: <20100331212557.luiuruqio4sc88c0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: One of our Nahuatlahtoh oracles Joe Campbell took a brief moment from his many projects these days to write me to add something to this discussion that supports Tomas's original view of the verb that Ken was dealing with. I'm sure Joe won't mind my sharing this: "...the VERB(PRT)-TI-VERB2 construction (where the VERB2 is something "like" an auxiliary and shows rhythm or continuance or maintenance) matches the "ihcuiliuhtica" word. It seems to me that it is based on "ihcuilli" and the "ihui" verber. Then with the preterit form and the -ti- ligature, it looks like one of the series of AUXes (nemi, quetza, huetzi, mani, ehua, huitz, quiza, tlalia, tlehco, teca, ..., ihca, o, yauh, calaqui, etc.). Taking the example of a verb like "ezquiztica", wouldn't it be possible to compare to the English and Spanish progressive construction? -- 'it is exiting in a blood way'?" I traced the analysis I offered that was contrary to Tomas's to a grammar notebook from first-year Nahuatl, and then I traced the notes back to Joe's and Dr. Karttunen's grammar, chapter 25, page 313. They don't indicate that the forms they offer are "present progressive," nor do they translate them as such. I remember hearing that ti-cah forms a present progressive verb, but I never truly accepted that. So, my apologies to Tomas, as I thought we were talking about two different grammatical animals, when in fact we're talking about the same one. (I think! :-). But, NOW, I'm concerned, especially after John's posting about how Nahuatl in his part of Mexico uses the ti-cah construction whether we actually understand how the classical language used it. My sense from day one is that "choca" means *either* 'she/he/it cries' or 'she/he/it is crying'; in other words, "choca" always has had the sense from my experience of very "present progressive". Perhaps this leads to why Joe and Dr. Kartunnen translated "chicauhticah" as "it is strong; strong and stable" and not with a "present progressive" translation, such as "he is being strong (at the moment)...but we know he's going to collapse any moment... Does anyone have any real experience to offer that might shed light on this topic? It's one area of Nahuatl grammar that has often revisited me. Joe says that it ti-cah shows "rhythm or continuance or maintenance". Maybe that's the answer to all my questions--I only ever understood the maintenance sense of this construction. (I think :-) Best, Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > THREE TYPOS OF MY OWN BELOW: > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> Ken, Tomas, y otros listeros, >> >> The explanation below is not quite right, I don't think. Let's back up >> for a moment. >> >> The original form that Ken wrote was "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". >> >> We can write this in, shall we say?, the Andrewsian Alphabet as >> >> in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuticah > > > THIS SHOULD READ: > > in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuhticah > >> >> >> I'm assuming "ixci" is an original copy error or a Ken keyboarding >> error standing for icxi 'foot/feet'. >> >> >> ihcuiliutica > > AND THIS SHOULD BE > > ihcuiliuhtica > > > is not a "present progressive". This is an example of how >> an intransitive verb can join with -ti-cah to produce what is usually >> translated into English as an adjective, sometimes a noun: >> >> chica:hua become strong >> chica:uticah > > AND THAT SHOULD BE chica:uhticah > > > > > > it is strong, or something that is strong >> >> tlacoxe:lihui divide in half >> tlahcoxe:liuhticah it is divided in half; something divided in half >> >> >> 'adjacent to the foot/feet it is written, there is written, something >> got written' (I like the last one best). >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> Quoting t_amaya at megared.net.mx: >> >>> >>> Hallo Ken Kitayama, >>> >>> BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } >>> My first reading is. "on his foot, it is written ...", my seccond: "on >>> his foot, it is painted" >>> >>> Explaining: ca and oc (tica and toc) can be used for a resultant >>> state, if you want to express the progressive tense you have to say >>> e.g. tlahcuiliuhtica, quiihcuiliuhtica (he is writting (something), he >>> is painting it); i.e. we have to use the "thing" or "accusative" >>> particle. >>> >>> For me, according to the context, the verb may mean "to write" or >>> "to paint". >>> >>> Exemple in nahuat of Cuetzalan: in quinequía, choloz ilpihtoc >>> (ilpihtica) yn axno (the donkey is tied because he wanted to escape) >>> >>> You also have the particle tech, whose meaning is precisely "on". >>> Pay attention: depending on the context the text could mean: "on his >>> food, that is painted ..." ; it depends if you read: yn itech yxci, >>> ihcuiliuhtica, or: in itech ixci ihcuiliuhtica. >>> >>> Exemples: Yn itech imetz (foot in Cuetzalan nahuat), ihcuiliuhtica >>> ce totot; on his foot, it is painted a bird. In itech >>> imetz-ihcuiliuhtica, motta ce totot (on his painted foot one can see a >>> bird). >>> >>> I hope it helps you >>> >>> Nimitztlapaloa. >>> >>> Tomas Amaya >>> On Sun 28/03/10 6:30 PM , "Ken Kitayama" kk2443 at columbia.edu sent: >>> My name is Ken Kitayama; I am a senior at Columbia University >>> working on a project dealing with corporal images in colonial New >>> Spain. I have come across a 17th century document that uses the >>> phrase "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". I have two questions. First, >>> from my understanding, the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" as written is in the >>> present progressive tense, but this interpretation does not make sense >>> within the rest of the document. So I was wondering if anyone had >>> seen the "-ca" prefix used as a verb of a resultant state ("it is >>> painted/inscribed"). Secondly, I am having trouble interpreting the >>> meaning of the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" itself. I would like to know >>> whether it has to do with the verb "to paint" as in applying pigment >>> to the surface of the skin, or if it has to do more with an >>> interpretation like "to inscribe", where the skin is actually broken >>> and pigment is introduced inside the skin itself. Thanks for your >>> help. >>> -- >>> Ken Kitayama >>> Columbia College 2010 >>> 3620 Lerner Hall >>> New York, NY 10027 >>> ------------------------- >>> Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cindy at grito-poetry.com Fri Apr 16 21:17:19 2010 From: cindy at grito-poetry.com (Cindy Williams Gutierrez) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:17:19 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl lullabies and language text Message-ID: Greetings, all! I am a poet-dramatist in Portland, Oregon who has studied Nahuatl poetics. I write Nahua-inspired poems in English (with some code switching in Nahuatl). Through Humanities Washington Inquiring Mind series, I perform these poems accompanied by a Mexican musician on pre-Hispanic instruments. I have written a Song for the Dead (Miccacuicatl), Song of Women (Cihuacuicatl), Song of Spring (Xopancuicatl), and Song of a Suddenly Ancient Man (my version of Huehuehcuicatl). I am now interested in writing a lullaby in Nahuatl. Does anyone know of resources (preferably in English, though Spanish would also be helpful) regarding Nahuatl lullabies? I'm also interested in learning Nahuatl. Based on my studies of Nahuatl poetics, I'm somewhat familiar with how the language works and with a bit of vocabulary. What texts and classes do you recommend to get me started? Thank you for your help! Cindy WG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Sat Apr 17 13:55:24 2010 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 09:55:24 -0400 Subject: Icelandic -tl- Message-ID: Hello all, This is very off-topic, but I just heard a report on the volcano in Iceland, Eyjafjallajokull, the one that is causing such aeronautic trouble in Europe, and it sounded to my untrained ears that the Icelandic pronunciation of their "ll" is precisely the same as Nahuatl "tl." I also noticed that non-Icelandic reporters find it impossible to say. The New York Times pronunciation guide, http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/iceland-volcano-spews-consonants-and-vowels/, turns the middle "ll" into two sounds, "t" followed by "l" (keeping the "t" with the preceding syllable and annexing the "l" to the following one), and then has this about that tricky final -tl sound: "the 't' at the end kind of sticks for a second and pulls away with a hint of a glottal 'l.'" Guess that's the best you can do if you only have American English phonemes to work with. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From clayton at indiana.edu Sat Apr 17 16:34:12 2010 From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:34:12 -0400 Subject: Icelandic -tl- Message-ID: Hello all, Following David's tip, I found a couple of sound clips online that purport to be by native speakers, and which sound very credible in that they are nothing that a foreigner would come up with based on the spelling. However, they are fairly different. Whether there are different dialects of Icelandic I have no idea. I've listened to the clearer (and somehow more convincing) of these until my ears have phonetic fatigue and I have to leave it alone for a while. (This is *great* fun for anyone in phonetics.) This one includes a phonetic transcription, but even it seems to be a bit influenced by spelling, in that the first consonant, spelled with f, sounds clearly like a v (i.e., the voiced counterpart of f). For his final syllable, I hear not tl but kl, that is, a laterally released somewhat fronted k. This would make a certain amount of sense, given the spelling -kull. There is clearly nothing voiced in that final syllable, and if the last vowel is a voiceless front-rounded u (the "French u" written in phonetics with a dieresis over it), then with a following voiceless l, the effect would be very similar. The other speaker, a woman, has what I hear as a clear tl. This clip has a couple of repeats, nicely spaced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqXc8i8CvNs The same sound sample, with a phonetic transcription, followed by a number of foreign attempts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jq-sMZtSww Both of the above have the same sound sample as the wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyjafjallajokull Unfortunately, the Wikipedia phonetic chart doesn't discuss tl, and we *know* that it isn't just a combination of t and l, as many English speakers pronounce it. In addition, the wikipedia entry for Icelandic language is somewhat suspect in matters of phonetics/phonology. It lists voiceless and velar laterals (l-sounds) as separate phonemes, but then it also gives aspirated and unaspirated voiceless stops as phonemes even though the text describes them as allophones. There is no mention of a Nahuatl-type tl. And if you aren't tired of Icelandic by now, scroll down to the very bottom of that last site to see the names of some of their other volcanoes! Cheers, Mary Quoting "Frye, David" : > Hello all, > > > > This is very off-topic, but I just heard a report on the volcano in > Iceland, Eyjafjallajokull, the one that is causing such aeronautic > trouble in Europe, and it sounded to my untrained ears that the > Icelandic pronunciation of their "ll" is precisely the same as > Nahuatl "tl." > > > > I also noticed that non-Icelandic reporters find it impossible to say. > > > > The New York Times pronunciation guide, > http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/iceland-volcano-spews-consonants-and-vowels/, turns the middle "ll" into two sounds, "t" followed by "l" (keeping the "t" with the preceding syllable and annexing the "l" to the following one), and then has this about that tricky final > -tl > sound: > > "the 't' at the end kind of sticks for a second and pulls away with a > hint of a glottal 'l.'" > > Guess that's the best you can do if you only have American English > phonemes to work with. > > > > David > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From theabroma at gmail.com Sat Apr 17 16:59:32 2010 From: theabroma at gmail.com (Sharon Peters) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:59:32 -0500 Subject: Icelandic -tl- In-Reply-To: <20100417123412.71ohgavls00owgg0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Re: phonetic fatigue ... alternatively, the sounds of the native Icelandic speakers could be saved to a .wav or .aiff file and loaded on Praat ... you could compare the sound waveforms and spectrograms of those speakers next to some words containing the /tl/ segment from native speakers of Nahuatl. Praat is public domain phonological analysis software, downloadable to many platforms, and available at www.praat.org. Great tool, and great fun to play with. Good tutorials available from the site a dn online, and a fairly shallow learning curve. Regards, Sharon Peters On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Clayton, Mary L. wrote: > Hello all, > Following David's tip, I found a couple of sound clips online that > purport to be by native speakers, and which sound very credible in that > they are nothing that a foreigner would come up with based on the > spelling. However, they are fairly different. Whether there are > different dialects of Icelandic I have no idea. > I've listened to the clearer (and somehow more convincing) of > these until my ears have phonetic fatigue and I have to leave it alone > for a while. (This is *great* fun for anyone in phonetics.) This one > includes a phonetic transcription, but even it seems to be a bit > influenced by spelling, in that the first consonant, spelled with f, > sounds clearly like a v (i.e., the voiced counterpart of f). For his > final syllable, I hear not tl but kl, that is, a laterally released > somewhat fronted k. This would make a certain amount of sense, given > the spelling -kull. There is clearly nothing voiced in that final > syllable, and if the last vowel is a voiceless front-rounded u (the > "French u" written in phonetics with a dieresis over it), then with a > following voiceless l, the effect would be very similar. The other > speaker, a woman, has what I hear as a clear tl. > > This clip has a couple of repeats, nicely spaced. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqXc8i8CvNs > > The same sound sample, with a phonetic transcription, followed by a > number of foreign attempts. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jq-sMZtSww > > > Both of the above have the same sound sample as the wiki article: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyjafjallajokull > > Unfortunately, the Wikipedia phonetic chart doesn't discuss tl, > and we *know* that it isn't just a combination of t and l, as many > English speakers pronounce it. In addition, the wikipedia entry for > Icelandic language is somewhat suspect in matters of > phonetics/phonology. It lists voiceless and velar laterals (l-sounds) > as separate phonemes, but then it also gives aspirated and unaspirated > voiceless stops as phonemes even though the text describes them as > allophones. There is no mention of a Nahuatl-type tl. > > And if you aren't tired of Icelandic by now, scroll down to the very > bottom of that last site to see the names of some of their other > volcanoes! > > Cheers, > Mary > > Quoting "Frye, David" : > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > This is very off-topic, but I just heard a report on the volcano in > > Iceland, Eyjafjallajokull, the one that is causing such aeronautic > > trouble in Europe, and it sounded to my untrained ears that the > > Icelandic pronunciation of their "ll" is precisely the same as > > Nahuatl "tl." > > > > > > > > I also noticed that non-Icelandic reporters find it impossible to say. > > > > > > > > The New York Times pronunciation guide, > > > http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/iceland-volcano-spews-consonants-and-vowels/, > turns the middle "ll" into two sounds, "t" followed by "l" (keeping the "t" > with the preceding syllable and annexing the "l" to the following one), and > then has this about that tricky final > > -tl > > sound: > > > > "the 't' at the end kind of sticks for a second and pulls away with a > > hint of a glottal 'l.'" > > > > Guess that's the best you can do if you only have American English > > phonemes to work with. > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- Sín Fronteras Aquí estoy yo .... pero ya anda por México mi corazón -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Sat Apr 17 18:49:50 2010 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 14:49:50 -0400 Subject: Icelandic -tl- In-Reply-To: <20100417123412.71ohgavls00owgg0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I heard it on an NPR report, which i just found online. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126055027 The pronunciation question (with NPR's Joe Palca giving his best shot [he simplifies the final sound into -t], followed by an Icelandic volcano expert) begins at 2:51. -David ________________________________________ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Clayton, Mary L. [clayton at indiana.edu] Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 12:34 PM To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Icelandic -tl- Hello all, Following David's tip, I found a couple of sound clips online that purport to be by native speakers, and which sound very credible in that they are nothing that a foreigner would come up with based on the spelling. However, they are fairly different. Whether there are different dialects of Icelandic I have no idea. I've listened to the clearer (and somehow more convincing) of these until my ears have phonetic fatigue and I have to leave it alone for a while. (This is *great* fun for anyone in phonetics.) This one includes a phonetic transcription, but even it seems to be a bit influenced by spelling, in that the first consonant, spelled with f, sounds clearly like a v (i.e., the voiced counterpart of f). For his final syllable, I hear not tl but kl, that is, a laterally released somewhat fronted k. This would make a certain amount of sense, given the spelling -kull. There is clearly nothing voiced in that final syllable, and if the last vowel is a voiceless front-rounded u (the "French u" written in phonetics with a dieresis over it), then with a following voiceless l, the effect would be very similar. The other speaker, a woman, has what I hear as a clear tl. This clip has a couple of repeats, nicely spaced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqXc8i8CvNs The same sound sample, with a phonetic transcription, followed by a number of foreign attempts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jq-sMZtSww Both of the above have the same sound sample as the wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyjafjallajokull Unfortunately, the Wikipedia phonetic chart doesn't discuss tl, and we *know* that it isn't just a combination of t and l, as many English speakers pronounce it. In addition, the wikipedia entry for Icelandic language is somewhat suspect in matters of phonetics/phonology. It lists voiceless and velar laterals (l-sounds) as separate phonemes, but then it also gives aspirated and unaspirated voiceless stops as phonemes even though the text describes them as allophones. There is no mention of a Nahuatl-type tl. And if you aren't tired of Icelandic by now, scroll down to the very bottom of that last site to see the names of some of their other volcanoes! Cheers, Mary Quoting "Frye, David" : > Hello all, > > > > This is very off-topic, but I just heard a report on the volcano in > Iceland, Eyjafjallajokull, the one that is causing such aeronautic > trouble in Europe, and it sounded to my untrained ears that the > Icelandic pronunciation of their "ll" is precisely the same as > Nahuatl "tl." > > > > I also noticed that non-Icelandic reporters find it impossible to say. > > > > The New York Times pronunciation guide, > http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/iceland-volcano-spews-consonants-and-vowels/, turns the middle "ll" into two sounds, "t" followed by "l" (keeping the "t" with the preceding syllable and annexing the "l" to the following one), and then has this about that tricky final > -tl > sound: > > "the 't' at the end kind of sticks for a second and pulls away with a > hint of a glottal 'l.'" > > Guess that's the best you can do if you only have American English > phonemes to work with. > > > > David > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Sat Apr 17 15:59:11 2010 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:59:11 +0100 Subject: Icelandic -tl- In-Reply-To: <3D190E83FA6906478970A9EDC5C5B9EB1A06225EA8@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: The wikipedia page for the volcano gives the IPA transcription as [ˈɛɪjaˌfjatlaˌjœːkʏtl̥] , Without being familiar with the phonetic details of either language, I claim: They are probably the same sound. A word final [t] followed by a voiceless [l] (as in the transcription of the name of the volcano) would not be different in realization from a word final dental lateral affricate, as Classical Nahuatl is reported to have. A voiceless [l] is only perceived through the disturbances it creates in the formants of adjacent vowels, so a word final voiceless [l] (lacking neighboring vocalic segments) is most likely to be realized as a lateral fricative if it is to be perceived. So the sounds should sound approximately the same, I am guessing. There are probably differences due to the particular places of articulation (e.g. dental/alveolar, apical/laminal) for each language. I have not heard the volcano word spoken before nor have I heard a native speaker of a Nahuatl dialect having the segment in question, so I am only speculating. On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Frye, David wrote: > Hello all, > > > > This is very off-topic, but I just heard a report on the volcano in > Iceland, Eyjafjallajokull, the one that is causing such aeronautic trouble > in Europe, and it sounded to my untrained ears that the Icelandic > pronunciation of their "ll" is precisely the same as Nahuatl "tl." > > > > I also noticed that non-Icelandic reporters find it impossible to say. > > > > The New York Times pronunciation guide, > http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/iceland-volcano-spews-consonants-and-vowels/, > turns the middle "ll" into two sounds, "t" followed by "l" (keeping the "t" > with the preceding syllable and annexing the "l" to the following one), and > then has this about that tricky final -tl sound: > > "the 't' at the end kind of sticks for a second and pulls away with a hint > of a glottal 'l.'" > > Guess that's the best you can do if you only have American English phonemes > to work with. > > > > David > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Apr 20 09:05:05 2010 From: wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk (wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:05:05 +0100 Subject: icelandic tl Message-ID: Hello to all who may be still interested, I hope this will put an end to all the misleading descriptions of the pronunciation of the Icelandic word. In this amusing little newsclip the name of the glacier is pronounced clearly several times, nice and slowly. It's definitely ['ejja-'fjatla-'joekytl] - as near as one can write it phonetically in an e-mail. The [tl] is certainly near enough identical to Nahuatl 'tl', evidently in Icelandic ll, and nn are usually pronounced as unvoiced tl and tn . http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/04/2010419171159919893.html William 'Huilotl' Wilcox -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Apr 20 23:38:59 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:38:59 -0500 Subject: icelandic tl Message-ID: Este tipo de distorsión me ha pasado cuando copio de un documento Word y lo pego en un mensaje de correo electrónico que es para la lista NAHUAT-L. El remedio que encontré es guardar el mensaje que quiero enviar en formato TXT, cerrarlo, abrir el archivo TXT y enviarlo a la lista, sea como archivo TXT o como archivo HTML. (Estoy usando Windows Vista y Outlook.) Con este procedimiento llega intacto el mensaje a los listeros, por lo menos en mi experiencia. Tal vez otros listeros con mayores conocimientos sobre formatos de archivo y juegos de caracteres puedan sugerir algo mejor. This sort of distortion has happened when I copy text from a Word document and paste it in an e-mail for the NAHUAT-L list. I have found a remedy, which is to save the message I'm trying to send as a TXT file, close it, then open the TXT file and send it to the list as a TXT or HTML file. (I'm using Windows Vista and Outlook.) With this procedure the message arrives intact to the subscribers to the list, at least in my experience. Perhaps other subscribers with a more sophisticated understading of file formats and character sets can suggest something better. David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl- bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Joost Kremers Enviado el: martes, 20 de abril de 2010 09:45 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] icelandic tl njYr y ? ! - [( wl )-j? z [ h n+2 V ç +ay jYe v b ?'- , ^ i " ~ j? '! ? w^ Z ? Mj [e k z. ? )-& , ? ) m6 ] ]4 N at 3 5 L, )\ ??r º-xw hjYp ? )e {^ -y ! +0 Yi ?zwm e ^i? ?r *' k { r& ~ ^!?jwbs +t + " b ^ ,rX jg ~ ^ V ?? q \ ?+- ??z q v h \ ^~) rz8 ~6 zL 'y ? q +^ a w ? ( jw j)S e - ? \ y ? '^ ?j[h5 nj m u ( !?jwbrYZ j ?*k z. ?j? y ejwm Xm zx% Z 6 y ?  , ? Mt N? Mt _u ]y } iV Ybja Z- h r Qy zw- X ^ ) Xm zx% Z 6 y ?  , ? Mt N? Mt _u ]y } iBM X Yh X m ? b z z { ?z ]?? ]8 { ^} _| xm SZ ?f ) +-5 nj e l} i 0 *+ Y b ?~ j Rh J ? I ?|km x- +n g ?)h 2*?jf Y 7?; km x- g 5 nj fj)b b Z ?X ?? m jk" ? +- w v e _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From joostkremers at fastmail.fm Wed Apr 21 06:20:24 2010 From: joostkremers at fastmail.fm (Joost Kremers) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:20:24 +0200 Subject: icelandic tl In-Reply-To: <6E14329859954D499A926BBE74367533@WILLYWPC> Message-ID: Hi all, sorry about all the noise... Somewhere along the line, the headers in my email are rewritten, causing rubbish to come out. I'm sending this email is ASCII, which will hopefully make it to the list unharmed... To anyone interested, this is what I wrote in my original email: ============================================================================= Actually, to *my* ear (but who am I), the first -ll- sounds like a sequence of [t] plus [l] (might be bisyllabic). Only the final -ll sounds like a voiceless lateral plosive (affricate?) (which is my understanding of what Nahuatl tl is pronounced like...) Joost ============================================================================= When it came back from the list, my original email contained the following header: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 When I sent the email, however, this header had a different value: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The latter is actually correct. I have no idea why the header is being rewritten, but if you change the 'base64' in the headers back to '8bit', the email becomes readable again. (Well, on my system, anyway...) Joost On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:05:05AM +0100, wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk wrote: > Hello to all who may be still interested, > > I hope this will put an end to all the misleading descriptions of the > pronunciation of the Icelandic word. In this amusing little newsclip the > name of the glacier is pronounced clearly several times, nice and slowly. > It's definitely ['ejja-'fjatla-'joekytl] - as near as one can write it > phonetically in an e-mail. > The [tl] is certainly near enough identical to Nahuatl 'tl', evidently in > Icelandic ll, and nn are usually pronounced as unvoiced tl and tn . > > [1]http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/04/2010419171159919893.html > > William 'Huilotl' Wilcox -- Joost Kremers Life has its moments _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed Apr 21 21:04:38 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:04:38 -0500 Subject: Character transmission on Nahuat-l Message-ID: A fellow listero sent me a private message with my last post to Nahuat-l at the end. I see the method I recommended didn't work with the accented vowels in the Spanish part of my text. I hadn't noticed problems with accents in previous posts. Can someone come up with simple guidelines to guarantee accurate transmission of our messages on this list? I think this has come up before but I don't remember what was said. Saludos, David > [Original Message] > From: David Wright > To: Nahuat-l > Date: 4/20/2010 06:39:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] icelandic tl > > Este tipo de distorsisn me ha pasado cuando copio de un documento Word > y lo > pego en un mensaje de correo electrsnico que es para la lista > NAHUAT-L. El remedio que encontri es guardar el mensaje que quiero > enviar en formato TXT, > cerrarlo, abrir el archivo TXT y enviarlo a la lista, sea como archivo TXT o > como archivo HTML. (Estoy usando Windows Vista y Outlook.) Con este > procedimiento llega intacto el mensaje a los listeros, por lo menos en > mi experiencia. Tal vez otros listeros con mayores conocimientos sobre formatos > de archivo y juegos de caracteres puedan sugerir algo mejor. > > This sort of distortion has happened when I copy text from a Word > document and paste it in an e-mail for the NAHUAT-L list. I have found > a remedy, which is to save the message I'm trying to send as a TXT > file, close it, then open the TXT file and send it to the list as a > TXT or HTML file. (I'm using Windows Vista and Outlook.) With this > procedure the message arrives intact to the subscribers to the list, > at least in my experience. Perhaps other subscribers with a more > sophisticated understading of file formats and > character sets can suggest something better. > > David > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl- > bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Joost Kremers Enviado el: > martes, 20 de abril de 2010 09:45 a.m. > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] icelandic tl > > njYr y ? ! - [( wl )-j? z [ h n+2 V g +ay jYe v b > ?'- , ^ i " ~ j? '! ? w^ Z ? Mj > [e k z. ? )-& , ? ) m6 ] ]4 N at 3 5 L, )\ ??r :-xw hjYp ? )e {^ > -y ! +0 Yi ?zwm e ^i? ?r > *' k { r& ~ ^!?jwbs > +t + " b ^ ,rX jg ~ ^ V ?? q \ ?+- ??z q v h \ ^~) rz8 > ~6 zL 'y ? q +^ a w > ? ( jw j)S e - ? \ y ? '^ ?j[h5 nj m u ( !?jwbrYZ j ?*k z. ?j? > y ejwm Xm zx% Z 6 y ?  , > ? Mt N? Mt _u ]y } iV Ybja Z- h r Qy zw- X ^ ) Xm zx% Z 6 y ? >  , ? Mt N? Mt _u ]y } > iBM > X Yh X m ? b z z { > ?z ]?? ]8 { ^} _| xm SZ ?f ) +-5 nj e l} i 0 *+ Y b > ?~ j Rh J ? > I ?|km x- +n g ?)h 2*?jf > Y 7?; km x- g 5 nj fj)b b Z ?X ?? m > jk" ? +- w v e > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Apr 22 00:39:38 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:39:38 -0500 Subject: Book review Message-ID: Estimados listeros: I recently ordered a book from Amazon with a promising (albeit choppy) title: "Vocabulario trilingue: Spanish language, Manuscript, Antonio de Nebrija, Nahuatl, Newberry Library", edited by Lambert M. Surhone, Miriam T. Timpledon, and Susan F. Marseken (Lexington: Betascript Publishing, 2010). The cost was $67 U.S. I have this book in my hands as I write. Page 1 has a very brief Wikipedia article about Ayer ms. 1478, a manuscript copy of Nebrija's Spanish-Latin dictionary, with a translation of each entry into Nahuatl. There is nothing else in the book regarding this manuscript. The rest of the content consists of Wikipedia articles on: "Spanish language," "Manuscript," "Antonio de Nebrija," "Nahuatl," "Newberry Library," "Chicago," "Illinois," "Cuneiform script," "Inscription," "Typewriter," and "Manuscript format." Strange, isn't it? Fortunately Amazon is letting me return it. I thought I should let you folks know before you make the same mistake I did. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Apr 22 01:20:06 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:20:06 -0500 Subject: Book review In-Reply-To: <000001cae1b4$4a479ad0$ded6d070$@net.mx> Message-ID: David, You got punked! John On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, David Wright wrote: > Estimados listeros: > > I recently ordered a book from Amazon with a promising (albeit choppy) title: “Vocabulario trilingue: Spanish language, Manuscript, Antonio de Nebrija, Nahuatl, Newberry Library”, edited by Lambert M. Surhone, Miriam T. Timpledon, and Susan F. Marseken (Lexington: Betascript Publishing, 2010). The cost was $67 U.S. > > I have this book in my hands as I write. Page 1 has a very brief Wikipedia article about Ayer ms. 1478, a manuscript copy of Nebrija’s Spanish-Latin dictionary, with a translation of each entry into Nahuatl. There is nothing else in the book regarding this manuscript. The rest of the content consists of Wikipedia articles on: “Spanish language,” “Manuscript,” “Antonio de Nebrija,” “Nahuatl,” “Newberry Library,” “Chicago,” “Illinois,” “Cuneiform script,” “Inscription,” “Typewriter,” and “Manuscript format.” > > Strange, isn’t it? Fortunately Amazon is letting me return it. I thought I should let you folks know before you make the same mistake I did. > > Saludos, > > David Wright > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From marthanoyes at hawaii.rr.com Thu Apr 22 01:40:21 2010 From: marthanoyes at hawaii.rr.com (martha noyes) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:40:21 -1000 Subject: Book review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.chrisrand.com/blog/index.php/2010/02/27/odd-tale-alphascript-publishing-betascript-publishing/ explains the book's publishers. And if you google "betascript" you'll see from their own website that they're simply reformatting Wikipedia and the links associated with entries. It's too bad Amazon, or any other bookseller, sells their product. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sullivan, Ph.D. To: David Wright Cc: Nahuat-l Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Book review David, You got punked! John On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, David Wright wrote: Estimados listeros: I recently ordered a book from Amazon with a promising (albeit choppy) title: “Vocabulario trilingue: Spanish language, Manuscript, Antonio de Nebrija, Nahuatl, Newberry Library”, edited by Lambert M. Surhone, Miriam T. Timpledon, and Susan F. Marseken (Lexington: Betascript Publishing, 2010). The cost was $67 U.S. I have this book in my hands as I write. Page 1 has a very brief Wikipedia article about Ayer ms. 1478, a manuscript copy of Nebrija’s Spanish-Latin dictionary, with a translation of each entry into Nahuatl. There is nothing else in the book regarding this manuscript. The rest of the content consists of Wikipedia articles on: “Spanish language,” “Manuscript,” “Antonio de Nebrija,” “Nahuatl,” “Newberry Library,” “Chicago,” “Illinois,” “Cuneiform script,” “Inscription,” “Typewriter,” and “Manuscript format.” Strange, isn’t it? Fortunately Amazon is letting me return it. I thought I should let you folks know before you make the same mistake I did. Saludos, David Wright _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From stefanyteufel at yahoo.de Thu Apr 22 06:47:44 2010 From: stefanyteufel at yahoo.de (Stefanie Teufel) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:47:44 +0000 Subject: Book review In-Reply-To: <000001cae1b4$4a479ad0$ded6d070$@net.mx> Message-ID: Dear listeros,  I have once read a review about the book "sacrifice in aztec culture" (publisher alpha books , probably the same as betascript): They use only articles from Wikipedia, but the photographies are worse. Best, Stefanie ________________________________ Von: David Wright An: Nahuat-l <> Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 22. April 2010, 2:39:38 Uhr Betreff: [Nahuat-l] Book review Estimados listeros:   I recently ordered a book from Amazon with a promising (albeit choppy) title: “Vocabulario trilingue: Spanish language, Manuscript, Antonio de Nebrija, Nahuatl, Newberry Library”, edited by Lambert M. Surhone, Miriam T. Timpledon, and Susan F. Marseken (Lexington: Betascript Publishing, 2010). The cost was $67 U.S.   I have this book in my hands as I write. Page 1 has a very brief Wikipedia article about Ayer ms. 1478, a manuscript copy of Nebrija’s Spanish-Latin dictionary, with a translation of each entry into Nahuatl. There is nothing else in the book regarding this manuscript. The rest of the content consists of Wikipedia articles on: “Spanish language,” “Manuscript,” “Antonio de Nebrija,” “Nahuatl,” “Newberry Library,” “Chicago,” “Illinois,” “Cuneiform script,” “Inscription,” “Typewriter,” and “Manuscript format.”   Strange, isn’t it? Fortunately Amazon is letting me return it. I thought I should let you folks know before you make the same mistake I did.   Saludos,   David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Apr 27 03:33:19 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:33:19 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl and the academy Message-ID: Piyali listeros, Would anyone like to comment on what I perceive to be an underrepresentation of Nahuatl, or perhaps a lack of consolidation of its study in US university programs that deal with diverse aspects of American indigenous civilization. I know that in my area, Literature, South American languages have been overrepresented, at least since I was in graduate school. And the two graduate programs that I know of that actually specialize in indigenous languages, Iowa and UC Davis, don't offer classes in Nahuatl. Also, it seems to me that in schools where there are more than one person who works with some aspect of Nahuatl, they don't actually collaborate on anything. Has anyone thought about this? Does anyone plan on building a strong program in Nahuatl anywhere? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 15:37:34 2010 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:37:34 -0500 Subject: JOYAS BIBLIOGRAFICAS PARA EL ESTUDIO DEL NAHUATL, OTOMI Y TARASCO ACCESIBLES EN LA WEB Message-ID: Estimados foristas comparto con ustedes el descubrimiento de un verdadero tesoro que libre , gratuita y sin condición alguna ha puesto a disposición de todo quien desee obtenerlo una Universidad Pública, quien mas si no ellas en México, pues las privadas solo exprimen al cliente y conforman oligofrénicos tecnócratas o dipsómanos y crápulas gobernantes como los que desde hace 25 años padecemos en este dolorido y ensangrentrado país llamado México. La Universidad Autónoma de Nuevo León por medio de su Dirección General de Bibliotecas ha hecho una notable obra , encomiable en todos sentidos y digna de admiración, apoyo y respeto; creando la Colección Digital UANL . Un ejemplo que ojala se repita e otras universidad de este país y del mundo. Su dirección es http://cd.dgb.uanl.mx/index.php La UNAL ha puesto en linea parte fondos reservados "El objetivo de esta Colección es difundir los documentos mediante el acceso electrónico al texto completo de los mismos, a la vez que contribuir a su conservación. Tiene como principal antecedente e inspiración el Programa Memoria del Mundo de la UNESCO, cuyo propósito es asegurar la preservación del patrimonio documental de importancia nacional y regional." "La Colección Digital de la UANL está conformada por documentos editados durante los siglos XVI al XIX, en español, italiano, francés y latín, así como por las tesis de postgrado (Maestría, Especialidad y Doctorado) generadas en la UANL y por otros documentos de interés para la investigación. Los documentos de esta colección forman parte de los acervos bibliográficos que poseen la Biblioteca Universitaria Raúl Rangel Frías, Capilla Alfonsina Biblioteca Universitaria, Centro Regional de Información y Documentación en Salud de la Facultad de Medicina y Biblioteca José Juan Vallejo de la Facultad de Derecho y Criminología. La Colección Digital de la UANL, esta integrada actualmente por: 16,766 títulos con 17,430 volúmenes. De manera gratuita, libre ,sin condición alguna , sin tener que recibir basura en tu correo : LOS ESTUDIOSOS DEL NAHUATL A TODO NIVEL ENCUENTRAN EN ÉSTA BIBLIOTECA DIGITAL DE LA UANL VERDADERAS E INAPRECIABLES JOYAS BIBLIOGRÁFICAS COMO: *Arte mexicana / compuesta por Antonio del Rincón.* México: Oficina Tip. de la Secretaría de Fomento, 1885. Edicion preparada por Antonio Peñafiel Arte Mexicana por el jesuita Antonio del Rincon , indio texocoano y que fue publicado originalmente en 1595, Nahuatl texcocano EN ESTE MISMO VOLUMEN SE ENCUENTRA TAMBIEN PUBLICADO *Arte de la lengua mexicana por el Padre Horacio Carochi.* Los estudiosos del Nahuatl saben lo valioso que es esta joya publicada originalmente en 1695 Arte de la Lengua tarasca de Diego de Basalenque publicada en 1714 Todo esto manjar en el siguiente link http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080018793/1080018793.html y la muy interezante obra del Nahuatl de la región cazcana, DE JALISCO, ZACATECAS Y DURANGO se encuentra ésta edición preparada por el notable historiador Santoscoy.y publiicada en 1900: *Arte de lengua mexicana que fue usual entre los indios del Obispado de Guadalajara y de parte de los de Durango y Michoacán, escrito en 1692 / por Fr. Juan Guerra.Guadalajara, Jal.: Ancira y Hno., 1900.* http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080013823/1080013823.html Y tamabien con varios materiales mas incluidos en este volumen encontramos: Título: A*rte de la lengua mexicana / el Br. en sagrada teología Rafael Sandoval Autor: Sandoval, Rafael Tiburcio. Pie de imprenta: México : Tip. La Reproducción, 1888* Materia: Nahua -- Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): 18443 http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080013824/1080013824.html Y para los estudiosos del otomi como nuestro siempre generoso forista David Wright que sufre con las ventas de libros frudulentos o mal editados la biblioteca digital de la UNAL contiene esto: *Luces de Otomí ó gramática del idioma que hablan los indios otomíes en la República Mexicana / por Eustaquio Buelna. Autor: Buelna, Eustaquio, 1830-1907.* Pie de imprenta: México: Imp. del Gobierno Federal, 1893 Materia: Indios de México -- Lenguas. / Otomíes. Número de control (Bibid): 17692 Este trae en su Libro segundo puro manajar para los estudiosos del otomi pues contienene este libro segundo: *Luces del Otomí observadas á tres famosos lenguaraces, los padres Horacio Carochi y Francisco Jiménez, de la Compañía de Jesús, u Juan Sánchez de la Baquera, secular de Tula.* Y en su Capítulo vigésimo primero - Capítulo vigésimo segundo Capítulo vigésimo primero. *Luz de algunos adverbios que usaban los discípulos de Juan Sánchez. Capítulo vigésimo segundo. Diccionario formado de algunos términos observados en algunos papeles y discípulos de Juan Sánchez de la Baquera. Libro tercero. De las luces que útilmente se consiguieron de D. Luís de Neve, presbítero, sinodal de este Arzobispado. * http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080012545/1080012545.html Título: Luces del otomi ó gramática del idioma que hablan los indios otomíes en la republica mexicana, compuesta / un padre de la compañía de Jesús Autor: [Basilio, Tomas], 1654- Pie de imprenta: México : Imp. del Gobierno Federal, 1893 Materia: Otomí. Número de control (Bibid): 66154 Es el contenido anterior de la edición de don Eustaquio Buelna, sabio sinaloense. http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080043172/1080043172.html *Título: Lenguas indígenas de México : Familia mixteco - zapoteco y sus relaciones con el otomi.- Familia zoque-mixe.-chontal.- Huave y mexicano / Francisco Belmar Autor: Belmar, Francisco, 1859* Pie de imprenta: México : Impr. Particular, 1905 Materia: Indios de México -- Lenguas. Número de control (Bibid): 34290 http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080018786/1080018786.html A continuación comparto el resultado de la busqueda de titulos en esta Biblioteca virtual por medio de distintas palabras clave. Encontrando los siguientes materiales utiles para el estudio del Nahuatl: Ha buscado : nahua Resultados desde el 1 hasta el 10 de un total de 18 encontrados. Nueva búsqueda Título: Annales de Domingo Francisco de San Anton Chimalpahin Cuauhtlehuanitzin, sixieme et septieme relations (1258-1612) Autor: Chimalpain Cuauhtlehuanitzin, Domingo Francisco de San Antón Muñón, 1579-1660. Pie de imprenta: París : Maisonneuve et Ch. Leclerc, 1889 Materia: Nahua -- Textos. / México -- Historia. Número de control (Bibid): 17309 Título: Arte de la lengua mexicana / el Br. en sagrada teología Rafael Sandoval Autor: Sandoval, Rafael Tiburcio. Pie de imprenta: México : Tip. La Reproducción, 1888 Materia: Nahua -- Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): 18443 Título: Arte de lengua mexicana que fué usual entre los indios del obispado de Guadalajara y de parte de los de Durango y Michoacán, escrito en 1692 / Fr. Juan Guerra Autor: Guerra, Juan, fl. 1690. Pie de imprenta: Guadalajara, Jal. : Ancira y Hno., 1900 Materia: Nahua -- Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): 18442 Título: Arte mexicana. / compuesta por Antonio del Rincón Autor: Rincón, Antonio del, 1556-1601. Pie de imprenta: México : Oficina Tip. de la Secretaría de Fomento, 1885 Materia: Nahua -- Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): 34299 Título: Arte mexicana. compuesta por el padre Antonio del Rincón de la Compañia de Jesus ; dirigido al illustrissimo y reverendissimo S. Don Diego Romano Obispo de Tlaxcallan y el consejo de su Magestad &c. en México en casa de Pedro Balli, 1595. Autor: Rincón, Antonio del 1556-1601. Pie de imprenta: México : Oficina Tip. de la Secretaría de Fomento, 1885. Notas: Se reimprime en 1885 bajo el ciudado del Dr. Antonio Peñafiel. Materia: Nahua Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): UANL001007328 Título: Curso catequístico para el uso de las escuelas y colegios ; colección gradual de catecismos de doctrina cristiana, religión y urbanidad arreglos para el seminario de Morelia Autor: Ripalda, Gerónimo de, 1536-1618. Pie de imprenta: México : Imp. de J.M. Lara Materia: Nahua -- Textos. Número de control (Bibid): UANL000175926 Título: Diccionario de aztequismos o sea catálogo de las palabras del idioma nahuatl, azteca o mexicano introducidas al idioma castellano bajo diversas formas / Cecilio A. Robelo. Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Imprenta del Autor, 1904. Materia: Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Español. Número de control (Bibid): 70516 Título: Epítome o modo fácil de aprender el idioma nahuatl o lengua mexicana / Faustino Chimalpopoca Autor: Galicia Chimalpopoca, Faustino, m. 1877. Pie de imprenta: México : Tip. de la V. de Murguía e hijos, Portal del Aguila de Oro, [s.a.] Materia: Nahua -- Dialectos. / Nahua -- Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): 67887 Título: Estudio de la filosofía y riqueza de la lengua mexicana / Agustín de la Rosa Autor: Rosa, Agustín de la, 1824-1907. Pie de imprenta: Guadalajara, Jal. : Est. Tip. del Gob., 1889 Materia: Nahua -- Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): 33077 Título: Glosario de voces castellanas, derivadas del idioma Nahuatl o Mexicano / Jesús Sánchez Autor: Sanchez, Jesús. Pie de imprenta: México : Imp. de la Soc. Agricola Mexicana, 1902 Materia: Nahua. / Nahua -- Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): 71927 Título: Gramática del idioma mexicano, según el sistema de Ollendorff/ el presbítero Darío Julio Caballero Autor: Caballero, Darío Julio. Pie de imprenta: México : Tip. Literaria de Filomeno Mata, 1880 Materia: Nahua -- Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): 18438 Título: Historia General de las Cosas de Nueva España / por el R. P. Fr. Bernardino de Sahagún. Autor: Sahagún, Bernardino de, Fray, 1499?-1590. Pie de imprenta: México: impr. del Ciudadano A. Valdés, 1829-9999 Materia: Indios de México -- Antigüedades. / Aztecas. / Calendario mexicano. / Nahua -- Textos. / México -- Historia -- Descubrimiento y conquista, 1517-1521. Número de control (Bibid): 17801 Título: Las aztecas : poesías, tomadas de los antiguos cantares mexicanos / José Joaquín Pesado Pie de imprenta: México : Impr. de V. Segura Arguelles, 1854 Materia: Poesía nahua -- Traducciones al español. / Poesía nahua -- Colecciones. Número de control (Bibid): 33569 Título: Nombres geográficos de México : catálogo alfabético de los nombres de lugar pertenecientes al idioma nahuatl ; estudio geroglífico de la matricula de los tributos del Codice Mendocino / Antonio Peñafiel. Autor: Peñafiel, Antonio, 1831-1922. Pie de imprenta: México : Secretaría de Fomento, 1885, Materia: Nombres geográficos -- México. / Nahua. / Escritura pictórica mexicana. / Codex Mendocino. Número de control (Bibid): 34215 Título: Nombres geográficos indígenas del estado de Morelos : Estudio crítico de varias obras de toponomateología Nahua / el Lic. Cecilio A.Robelo Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Impr. Luis G. Miranda, 1897 Materia: Nombres geográficos -- México -- Morelos. / Nahua -- Gramática. / Nahua -- Etimologías -- Nombres. / Indios de México -- Nombres. Número de control (Bibid): 18453 Título: Toponimia maya-hispano-nahoa / por Cecilio A. Robelo. Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Curnavaca: Impr. de José D. Rojas, 1902 Materia: Nombres geográficos -- México. / Nahua -- Etimologías -- Nombres. / Maya -- Etimologías -- Nombres. Número de control (Bibid): 62022 Título: Vocabulario comparativo castellano y náhuatl / Cecilio A. Rabelo Autor: Rabelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Luis G. Miranda, 1888 Materia: Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Español. / Español -- Diccionarios -- Nahua. Número de control (Bibid): 34220 Título: Vocabulario comparativo castellano y nahuatl / el Lic. Cecilio A. Robelo Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : L.G. Miranda, 1888 Materia: Español -- Diccionarios -- Nahua. / Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Español. Número de control (Bibid): 18449 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx bajo la busqueda por Nahuatl Ha buscado : nahuatl Resultados desde el 1 hasta el 7 de un total de 7 encontrados. Nueva búsqueda 1 Título: Diccionario de aztequismos : ó sea, catálogo de las palabras del idioma nahuatl, azteca ó mexicano, introducidos al idioma castellano bajo diversas formas (contribución al diccionario nacional) / Cecilio A. Robelo Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Impr. del autor, 1904 Materia: Español -- Provincialismos -- México. / Español -- Palabras y frases de orígen extranjero -- Azteca. Número de control (Bibid): 18397 Título: Diccionario de aztequismos o sea catálogo de las palabras del idioma nahuatl, azteca o mexicano introducidas al idioma castellano bajo diversas formas / Cecilio A. Robelo. Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Imprenta del Autor, 1904. Materia: Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Español. Número de control (Bibid): 70516 Título: Epítome o modo fácil de aprender el idioma nahuatl o lengua mexicana / Faustino Chimalpopoca Autor: Galicia Chimalpopoca, Faustino, m. 1877. Pie de imprenta: México : Tip. de la V. de Murguía e hijos, Portal del Aguila de Oro, [s.a.] Materia: Nahua -- Dialectos. / Nahua -- Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): 67887 Título: Glosario de voces castellanas, derivadas del idioma Nahuatl o Mexicano / Jesús Sánchez Autor: Sanchez, Jesús. Pie de imprenta: México : Imp. de la Soc. Agricola Mexicana, 1902 Materia: Nahua. / Nahua -- Gramática. Número de control (Bibid): 71927 Título: Nombres geográficos de México : catálogo alfabético de los nombres de lugar pertenecientes al idioma nahuatl ; estudio geroglífico de la matricula de los tributos del Codice Mendocino / Antonio Peñafiel. Autor: Peñafiel, Antonio, 1831-1922. Pie de imprenta: México : Secretaría de Fomento, 1885, Materia: Nombres geográficos -- México. / Nahua. / Escritura pictórica mexicana. / Codex Mendocino. Número de control (Bibid): 34215 Título: Vocabulario comparativo castellano y náhuatl / Cecilio A. Rabelo Autor: Rabelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Luis G. Miranda, 1888 Materia: Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Español. / Español -- Diccionarios -- Nahua. Número de control (Bibid): 34220 Título: Vocabulario comparativo castellano y nahuatl / el Lic. Cecilio A. Robelo Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : L.G. Miranda, 1888 Materia: Español -- Diccionarios -- Nahua. / Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Español. Número de control (Bibid): 18449 Ha buscado : nahoa Resultados desde el 1 hasta el 3 de un total de 3 encontrados. Título: Diccionario de mitología nahoa / Cecilio A. Robelo. Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: México : impr. del Museo Nacional, 1905 Materia: Mitología azteca -- Diccionarios. Número de control (Bibid): 17706 Título: Sinopsis toponímica Nahoa del Distrito Federal Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca, Mor.: Tip. y Lib. José D. Rojas, 1901 Materia: Nombres geográficos -- México. Número de control (Bibid): 18811 Título: Toponimia maya-hispano-nahoa / por Cecilio A. Robelo. Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agustín, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Curnavaca: Impr. de José D. Rojas, 1902 Materia: Nombres geográficos -- México. / Nahua -- Etimologías -- Nombres. / Maya -- Etimologías -- Nombres. Número de control (Bibid): 62022 Los investigadores interesados en la historia de la conquista y vida colonial de Nueva Galicia, Zacatecas, Jalisco, Nayarit, La Nueva Vizcaya, la rebelion Cazcana, la Tepehuana, la Guerra chichimeca , los Huicholes , los Coras, la arqueologia de la quemada , la independencia de México , el imperio de maximiliano, la epoca santanista, etct, etc encontraran en esta biblioteca verdaderas e inapreciables joyas bibliográficas muchas de ellas inconseguibles de forma física como por ejemplo los textos de Frejes, Arlegui, Mota Padilla, el segundo volumen del padre Tello o la notable historia del zacatecano Elias Amador, la obra de Carlos Maria de Bustamante, etc, etc. DESEO QUE LOS FORITAS PUEDAN RECOMENDAR Y DIFUNDIR ESTE VALIOSO RECURSO QUE OFRECE LA UANL DE MEXICO ENTRE SUS COLEGAS Y ALUMNOS E IMPULSEN SE REPITA SU EJEMPLO ENTRE OTRAS UNIVERSIDADES DE MEXICO Y EL MUNDO COLOCANDO EN LA WEB FONDOS RESERVADOS PARA LA DIFUSIÓN DEL SABER HUMANO Y DE FORMA LIBRE ,GRATUITA Y SIN CONDICIONES. Un saludo para todos desde la hoy muy calurosa "garganta de tierra adentro" en México ROBERTO ROMERO GUTIERREZ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Apr 27 16:38:47 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:38:47 -0500 Subject: JOYAS BIBLIOGRAFICAS PARA EL ESTUDIO DEL NAHUATL, OTOMI Y TARASCO ACCESIBLES EN LA WEB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gracias por difundir este sitio, Roberto. Ya he trabajado esta veta y tengo estas obras en mi disco duro y en respaldos en discos DVD. Son de muy buena resolución, a colores, casi como tener los ejemplares originales en la mesa de trabajo. Sigo tu buen ejemplo y apunto la dirección de tres sitios adicionales que ofrecen un servicio similar. La primera tiene varias obras descriptivas acerca de las lenguas náhuatl, otomí, purépecha, quechua, aymara y muisca. Se llama Memoria Chilena; el sitio es de la Dirección de Bibliotecas, Archivos y Museos de Chile. Entre otras cosas hay un facsímil digital del pseudofacsímil de 1880 del vocabulario de Molina de 1571 (la edición de 1880 es la que ha servida de base para las ediciones publicadas por la Editorial Porrúa): http://www.memoriachilena.cl//temas/index.asp?id_ut=gramaticasdiccionariosyc atecismoscolonialesenlenguasindigenas También hay varias joyas de la lingüística novohispana en la Biblioteca Virtual Miguel de Cervantes (El vocabulario de Molina de 1555, su Arte de 1571, el Tesoro de la lengua castellana de Sebastián Cobarruvias [sic] Orozco, indispensable para entender el castellano del periodo Novohispano Temprano, etcétera): http://www.cervantesvirtual.com La edición en el sitio anterior de Cobarruvias es la segunda, de 1673-1674. Hay un facsímil de la primera edición, de 1611, en el Fondo Antiguo de la Biblioteca de la Universidad de Sevilla: http://fondosdigitales.us.es/fondos/libros/765/16/tesoro-de-la-lengua-castel lana-o-espanola Cada día tenemos mejores herramientas de trabajo, gracias al trabajo desinteresado de estas instituciones y otras. Saludos y buen provecho a todos los listeros, David Wright _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From noreply at badoo.com Thu Apr 29 23:56:13 2010 From: noreply at badoo.com (Badoo) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 23:56:13 +0000 Subject: Ignacio Silva C te ha dejado un mensaje... Message-ID: Ignacio Silva C te ha dejado un mensaje... El mensaje y la persona que lo envió solo te será mostrado a ti y borrarlo en cualquier momento. Puedes responder a través del sistema de intercambio de mensajes. Para descubrir quién te escribió, sigue el siguiente link: http://us1.badoo.com/01116198906/in/sKrQvAwj4-s/?lang_id=7 Más gente que también te está esperando: Alberto (Ciudad de México, México) Gabriela (Ciudad de México, México) Sofy (Ciudad de México, México) http://us1.badoo.com/01116198906/in/sKrQvAwj4-s/?lang_id=7 Si al pulsar el enlace de este mensaje no funciona, copia y pégalo en la barra de tu navegador. Este email es parte del procedimiento del sistema para el envío de mensajes enviados por Ignacio Silva C. Si has recibido este mensaje por error, ignora este email. Tras un corto periodo de tiempo, será eliminado del sistema. ¡Divértete! El equipo de Badoo Has recibido este email porque un usuario de Badoo te ha dejado un mensaje en Badoo. Este mensaje es automático. Las respuestas a este mensaje no estan controladas y no serán contestadas. Si no quieres recibir más mensajes de Badoo, háznoslo saber: http://us1.badoo.com/impersonation.phtml?lang_id=7&mail_code=21&email=nahuatl%40lists.famsi.org&secret=&invite_id=522046&user_id=1116198906 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 1 01:19:43 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:19:43 -0400 Subject: yhcuiliuhtica In-Reply-To: <14844.1270041687@megared.net.mx> Message-ID: Ken, Tomas, y otros listeros, The explanation below is not quite right, I don't think. Let's back up for a moment. The original form that Ken wrote was "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". We can write this in, shall we say?, the Andrewsian Alphabet as in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuticah I'm assuming "ixci" is an original copy error or a Ken keyboarding error standing for icxi 'foot/feet'. ihcuiliutica is not a "present progressive". This is an example of how an intransitive verb can join with -ti-cah to produce what is usually translated into English as an adjective, sometimes a noun: chica:hua become strong chica:uticah it is strong, or something that is strong tlacoxe:lihui divide in half tlahcoxe:liuhticah it is divided in half; something divided in half 'adjacent to the foot/feet it is written, there is written, something got written' (I like the last one best). Michael Quoting t_amaya at megared.net.mx: > > Hallo Ken Kitayama, > > BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } > My first reading is. "on his foot, it is written ...", my seccond: "on > his foot, it is painted" > > Explaining: ca and oc (tica and toc) can be used for a resultant > state, if you want to express the progressive tense you have to say > e.g. tlahcuiliuhtica, quiihcuiliuhtica (he is writting (something), he > is painting it); i.e. we have to use the "thing" or "accusative" > particle. > > For me, according to the context, the verb may mean "to write" or > "to paint". > > Exemple in nahuat of Cuetzalan: in quinequ?a, choloz ilpihtoc > (ilpihtica) yn axno (the donkey is tied because he wanted to escape) > > You also have the particle tech, whose meaning is precisely "on". > Pay attention: depending on the context the text could mean: "on his > food, that is painted ..." ; it depends if you read: yn itech yxci, > ihcuiliuhtica, or: in itech ixci ihcuiliuhtica. > > Exemples: Yn itech imetz (foot in Cuetzalan nahuat), ihcuiliuhtica > ce totot; on his foot, it is painted a bird. In itech > imetz-ihcuiliuhtica, motta ce totot (on his painted foot one can see a > bird). > > I hope it helps you > > Nimitztlapaloa. > > Tomas Amaya > On Sun 28/03/10 6:30 PM , "Ken Kitayama" kk2443 at columbia.edu sent: > My name is Ken Kitayama; I am a senior at Columbia University > working on a project dealing with corporal images in colonial New > Spain. I have come across a 17th century document that uses the > phrase "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". I have two questions. First, > from my understanding, the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" as written is in the > present progressive tense, but this interpretation does not make sense > within the rest of the document. So I was wondering if anyone had > seen the "-ca" prefix used as a verb of a resultant state ("it is > painted/inscribed"). Secondly, I am having trouble interpreting the > meaning of the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" itself. I would like to know > whether it has to do with the verb "to paint" as in applying pigment > to the surface of the skin, or if it has to do more with an > interpretation like "to inscribe", where the skin is actually broken > and pigment is introduced inside the skin itself. Thanks for your > help. > -- > Ken Kitayama > Columbia College 2010 > 3620 Lerner Hall > New York, NY 10027 > ------------------------- > Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 1 01:25:57 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:25:57 -0400 Subject: lo siento mucho In-Reply-To: <20100331211943.t69qrpopk4wkccc0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: THREE TYPOS OF MY OWN BELOW: Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Ken, Tomas, y otros listeros, > > The explanation below is not quite right, I don't think. Let's back up > for a moment. > > The original form that Ken wrote was "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". > > We can write this in, shall we say?, the Andrewsian Alphabet as > > in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuticah THIS SHOULD READ: in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuhticah > > > I'm assuming "ixci" is an original copy error or a Ken keyboarding > error standing for icxi 'foot/feet'. > > > ihcuiliutica AND THIS SHOULD BE ihcuiliuhtica is not a "present progressive". This is an example of how > an intransitive verb can join with -ti-cah to produce what is usually > translated into English as an adjective, sometimes a noun: > > chica:hua become strong > chica:uticah AND THAT SHOULD BE chica:uhticah it is strong, or something that is strong > > tlacoxe:lihui divide in half > tlahcoxe:liuhticah it is divided in half; something divided in half > > > 'adjacent to the foot/feet it is written, there is written, something > got written' (I like the last one best). > > Michael > > > > Quoting t_amaya at megared.net.mx: > >> >> Hallo Ken Kitayama, >> >> BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } >> My first reading is. "on his foot, it is written ...", my seccond: "on >> his foot, it is painted" >> >> Explaining: ca and oc (tica and toc) can be used for a resultant >> state, if you want to express the progressive tense you have to say >> e.g. tlahcuiliuhtica, quiihcuiliuhtica (he is writting (something), he >> is painting it); i.e. we have to use the "thing" or "accusative" >> particle. >> >> For me, according to the context, the verb may mean "to write" or >> "to paint". >> >> Exemple in nahuat of Cuetzalan: in quinequ?a, choloz ilpihtoc >> (ilpihtica) yn axno (the donkey is tied because he wanted to escape) >> >> You also have the particle tech, whose meaning is precisely "on". >> Pay attention: depending on the context the text could mean: "on his >> food, that is painted ..." ; it depends if you read: yn itech yxci, >> ihcuiliuhtica, or: in itech ixci ihcuiliuhtica. >> >> Exemples: Yn itech imetz (foot in Cuetzalan nahuat), ihcuiliuhtica >> ce totot; on his foot, it is painted a bird. In itech >> imetz-ihcuiliuhtica, motta ce totot (on his painted foot one can see a >> bird). >> >> I hope it helps you >> >> Nimitztlapaloa. >> >> Tomas Amaya >> On Sun 28/03/10 6:30 PM , "Ken Kitayama" kk2443 at columbia.edu sent: >> My name is Ken Kitayama; I am a senior at Columbia University >> working on a project dealing with corporal images in colonial New >> Spain. I have come across a 17th century document that uses the >> phrase "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". I have two questions. First, >> from my understanding, the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" as written is in the >> present progressive tense, but this interpretation does not make sense >> within the rest of the document. So I was wondering if anyone had >> seen the "-ca" prefix used as a verb of a resultant state ("it is >> painted/inscribed"). Secondly, I am having trouble interpreting the >> meaning of the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" itself. I would like to know >> whether it has to do with the verb "to paint" as in applying pigment >> to the surface of the skin, or if it has to do more with an >> interpretation like "to inscribe", where the skin is actually broken >> and pigment is introduced inside the skin itself. Thanks for your >> help. >> -- >> Ken Kitayama >> Columbia College 2010 >> 3620 Lerner Hall >> New York, NY 10027 >> ------------------------- >> Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 1 21:05:13 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 17:05:13 -0400 Subject: lo siento mucho In-Reply-To: <20100331212557.luiuruqio4sc88c0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Not to be a dead cahuayo, "yxci" could of course be 'his/her/its foot/feet', the possessor prefix i: fusing with the i of icxi when written. Tomas's "on" is o.k., too. -tech has several meaning, the essential one being "contact with the surface on the side of something". Examples of meanings that are different in English include: cuauhtitech in nemi 'it lives in the trees' caltech or caltitech 'against the house' 'touching the house' cuauhtitech quimilpia:yah in to:to:meh 'they were tying birds to sticks' no tech yetinemi 'i've got it on me' i:tech monequi 'he needs it' (in this translation "tech" disappears) Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > THREE TYPOS OF MY OWN BELOW: > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> Ken, Tomas, y otros listeros, >> >> The explanation below is not quite right, I don't think. Let's back up >> for a moment. >> >> The original form that Ken wrote was "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". >> >> We can write this in, shall we say?, the Andrewsian Alphabet as >> >> in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuticah > > > THIS SHOULD READ: > > in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuhticah > >> >> >> I'm assuming "ixci" is an original copy error or a Ken keyboarding >> error standing for icxi 'foot/feet'. >> >> >> ihcuiliutica > > AND THIS SHOULD BE > > ihcuiliuhtica > > > is not a "present progressive". This is an example of how >> an intransitive verb can join with -ti-cah to produce what is usually >> translated into English as an adjective, sometimes a noun: >> >> chica:hua become strong >> chica:uticah > > AND THAT SHOULD BE chica:uhticah > > > > > > it is strong, or something that is strong >> >> tlacoxe:lihui divide in half >> tlahcoxe:liuhticah it is divided in half; something divided in half >> >> >> 'adjacent to the foot/feet it is written, there is written, something >> got written' (I like the last one best). >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> Quoting t_amaya at megared.net.mx: >> >>> >>> Hallo Ken Kitayama, >>> >>> BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } >>> My first reading is. "on his foot, it is written ...", my seccond: "on >>> his foot, it is painted" >>> >>> Explaining: ca and oc (tica and toc) can be used for a resultant >>> state, if you want to express the progressive tense you have to say >>> e.g. tlahcuiliuhtica, quiihcuiliuhtica (he is writting (something), he >>> is painting it); i.e. we have to use the "thing" or "accusative" >>> particle. >>> >>> For me, according to the context, the verb may mean "to write" or >>> "to paint". >>> >>> Exemple in nahuat of Cuetzalan: in quinequ?a, choloz ilpihtoc >>> (ilpihtica) yn axno (the donkey is tied because he wanted to escape) >>> >>> You also have the particle tech, whose meaning is precisely "on". >>> Pay attention: depending on the context the text could mean: "on his >>> food, that is painted ..." ; it depends if you read: yn itech yxci, >>> ihcuiliuhtica, or: in itech ixci ihcuiliuhtica. >>> >>> Exemples: Yn itech imetz (foot in Cuetzalan nahuat), ihcuiliuhtica >>> ce totot; on his foot, it is painted a bird. In itech >>> imetz-ihcuiliuhtica, motta ce totot (on his painted foot one can see a >>> bird). >>> >>> I hope it helps you >>> >>> Nimitztlapaloa. >>> >>> Tomas Amaya >>> On Sun 28/03/10 6:30 PM , "Ken Kitayama" kk2443 at columbia.edu sent: >>> My name is Ken Kitayama; I am a senior at Columbia University >>> working on a project dealing with corporal images in colonial New >>> Spain. I have come across a 17th century document that uses the >>> phrase "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". I have two questions. First, >>> from my understanding, the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" as written is in the >>> present progressive tense, but this interpretation does not make sense >>> within the rest of the document. So I was wondering if anyone had >>> seen the "-ca" prefix used as a verb of a resultant state ("it is >>> painted/inscribed"). Secondly, I am having trouble interpreting the >>> meaning of the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" itself. I would like to know >>> whether it has to do with the verb "to paint" as in applying pigment >>> to the surface of the skin, or if it has to do more with an >>> interpretation like "to inscribe", where the skin is actually broken >>> and pigment is introduced inside the skin itself. Thanks for your >>> help. >>> -- >>> Ken Kitayama >>> Columbia College 2010 >>> 3620 Lerner Hall >>> New York, NY 10027 >>> ------------------------- >>> Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 01:46:16 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 21:46:16 -0400 Subject: present progressive and more In-Reply-To: <20100331212557.luiuruqio4sc88c0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: One of our Nahuatlahtoh oracles Joe Campbell took a brief moment from his many projects these days to write me to add something to this discussion that supports Tomas's original view of the verb that Ken was dealing with. I'm sure Joe won't mind my sharing this: "...the VERB(PRT)-TI-VERB2 construction (where the VERB2 is something "like" an auxiliary and shows rhythm or continuance or maintenance) matches the "ihcuiliuhtica" word. It seems to me that it is based on "ihcuilli" and the "ihui" verber. Then with the preterit form and the -ti- ligature, it looks like one of the series of AUXes (nemi, quetza, huetzi, mani, ehua, huitz, quiza, tlalia, tlehco, teca, ..., ihca, o, yauh, calaqui, etc.). Taking the example of a verb like "ezquiztica", wouldn't it be possible to compare to the English and Spanish progressive construction? -- 'it is exiting in a blood way'?" I traced the analysis I offered that was contrary to Tomas's to a grammar notebook from first-year Nahuatl, and then I traced the notes back to Joe's and Dr. Karttunen's grammar, chapter 25, page 313. They don't indicate that the forms they offer are "present progressive," nor do they translate them as such. I remember hearing that ti-cah forms a present progressive verb, but I never truly accepted that. So, my apologies to Tomas, as I thought we were talking about two different grammatical animals, when in fact we're talking about the same one. (I think! :-). But, NOW, I'm concerned, especially after John's posting about how Nahuatl in his part of Mexico uses the ti-cah construction whether we actually understand how the classical language used it. My sense from day one is that "choca" means *either* 'she/he/it cries' or 'she/he/it is crying'; in other words, "choca" always has had the sense from my experience of very "present progressive". Perhaps this leads to why Joe and Dr. Kartunnen translated "chicauhticah" as "it is strong; strong and stable" and not with a "present progressive" translation, such as "he is being strong (at the moment)...but we know he's going to collapse any moment... Does anyone have any real experience to offer that might shed light on this topic? It's one area of Nahuatl grammar that has often revisited me. Joe says that it ti-cah shows "rhythm or continuance or maintenance". Maybe that's the answer to all my questions--I only ever understood the maintenance sense of this construction. (I think :-) Best, Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > THREE TYPOS OF MY OWN BELOW: > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> Ken, Tomas, y otros listeros, >> >> The explanation below is not quite right, I don't think. Let's back up >> for a moment. >> >> The original form that Ken wrote was "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". >> >> We can write this in, shall we say?, the Andrewsian Alphabet as >> >> in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuticah > > > THIS SHOULD READ: > > in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuhticah > >> >> >> I'm assuming "ixci" is an original copy error or a Ken keyboarding >> error standing for icxi 'foot/feet'. >> >> >> ihcuiliutica > > AND THIS SHOULD BE > > ihcuiliuhtica > > > is not a "present progressive". This is an example of how >> an intransitive verb can join with -ti-cah to produce what is usually >> translated into English as an adjective, sometimes a noun: >> >> chica:hua become strong >> chica:uticah > > AND THAT SHOULD BE chica:uhticah > > > > > > it is strong, or something that is strong >> >> tlacoxe:lihui divide in half >> tlahcoxe:liuhticah it is divided in half; something divided in half >> >> >> 'adjacent to the foot/feet it is written, there is written, something >> got written' (I like the last one best). >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> Quoting t_amaya at megared.net.mx: >> >>> >>> Hallo Ken Kitayama, >>> >>> BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } >>> My first reading is. "on his foot, it is written ...", my seccond: "on >>> his foot, it is painted" >>> >>> Explaining: ca and oc (tica and toc) can be used for a resultant >>> state, if you want to express the progressive tense you have to say >>> e.g. tlahcuiliuhtica, quiihcuiliuhtica (he is writting (something), he >>> is painting it); i.e. we have to use the "thing" or "accusative" >>> particle. >>> >>> For me, according to the context, the verb may mean "to write" or >>> "to paint". >>> >>> Exemple in nahuat of Cuetzalan: in quinequ?a, choloz ilpihtoc >>> (ilpihtica) yn axno (the donkey is tied because he wanted to escape) >>> >>> You also have the particle tech, whose meaning is precisely "on". >>> Pay attention: depending on the context the text could mean: "on his >>> food, that is painted ..." ; it depends if you read: yn itech yxci, >>> ihcuiliuhtica, or: in itech ixci ihcuiliuhtica. >>> >>> Exemples: Yn itech imetz (foot in Cuetzalan nahuat), ihcuiliuhtica >>> ce totot; on his foot, it is painted a bird. In itech >>> imetz-ihcuiliuhtica, motta ce totot (on his painted foot one can see a >>> bird). >>> >>> I hope it helps you >>> >>> Nimitztlapaloa. >>> >>> Tomas Amaya >>> On Sun 28/03/10 6:30 PM , "Ken Kitayama" kk2443 at columbia.edu sent: >>> My name is Ken Kitayama; I am a senior at Columbia University >>> working on a project dealing with corporal images in colonial New >>> Spain. I have come across a 17th century document that uses the >>> phrase "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica". I have two questions. First, >>> from my understanding, the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" as written is in the >>> present progressive tense, but this interpretation does not make sense >>> within the rest of the document. So I was wondering if anyone had >>> seen the "-ca" prefix used as a verb of a resultant state ("it is >>> painted/inscribed"). Secondly, I am having trouble interpreting the >>> meaning of the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" itself. I would like to know >>> whether it has to do with the verb "to paint" as in applying pigment >>> to the surface of the skin, or if it has to do more with an >>> interpretation like "to inscribe", where the skin is actually broken >>> and pigment is introduced inside the skin itself. Thanks for your >>> help. >>> -- >>> Ken Kitayama >>> Columbia College 2010 >>> 3620 Lerner Hall >>> New York, NY 10027 >>> ------------------------- >>> Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cindy at grito-poetry.com Fri Apr 16 21:17:19 2010 From: cindy at grito-poetry.com (Cindy Williams Gutierrez) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:17:19 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl lullabies and language text Message-ID: Greetings, all! I am a poet-dramatist in Portland, Oregon who has studied Nahuatl poetics. I write Nahua-inspired poems in English (with some code switching in Nahuatl). Through Humanities Washington Inquiring Mind series, I perform these poems accompanied by a Mexican musician on pre-Hispanic instruments. I have written a Song for the Dead (Miccacuicatl), Song of Women (Cihuacuicatl), Song of Spring (Xopancuicatl), and Song of a Suddenly Ancient Man (my version of Huehuehcuicatl). I am now interested in writing a lullaby in Nahuatl. Does anyone know of resources (preferably in English, though Spanish would also be helpful) regarding Nahuatl lullabies? I'm also interested in learning Nahuatl. Based on my studies of Nahuatl poetics, I'm somewhat familiar with how the language works and with a bit of vocabulary. What texts and classes do you recommend to get me started? Thank you for your help! Cindy WG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Sat Apr 17 13:55:24 2010 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 09:55:24 -0400 Subject: Icelandic -tl- Message-ID: Hello all, This is very off-topic, but I just heard a report on the volcano in Iceland, Eyjafjallajokull, the one that is causing such aeronautic trouble in Europe, and it sounded to my untrained ears that the Icelandic pronunciation of their "ll" is precisely the same as Nahuatl "tl." I also noticed that non-Icelandic reporters find it impossible to say. The New York Times pronunciation guide, http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/iceland-volcano-spews-consonants-and-vowels/, turns the middle "ll" into two sounds, "t" followed by "l" (keeping the "t" with the preceding syllable and annexing the "l" to the following one), and then has this about that tricky final -tl sound: "the 't' at the end kind of sticks for a second and pulls away with a hint of a glottal 'l.'" Guess that's the best you can do if you only have American English phonemes to work with. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From clayton at indiana.edu Sat Apr 17 16:34:12 2010 From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:34:12 -0400 Subject: Icelandic -tl- Message-ID: Hello all, Following David's tip, I found a couple of sound clips online that purport to be by native speakers, and which sound very credible in that they are nothing that a foreigner would come up with based on the spelling. However, they are fairly different. Whether there are different dialects of Icelandic I have no idea. I've listened to the clearer (and somehow more convincing) of these until my ears have phonetic fatigue and I have to leave it alone for a while. (This is *great* fun for anyone in phonetics.) This one includes a phonetic transcription, but even it seems to be a bit influenced by spelling, in that the first consonant, spelled with f, sounds clearly like a v (i.e., the voiced counterpart of f). For his final syllable, I hear not tl but kl, that is, a laterally released somewhat fronted k. This would make a certain amount of sense, given the spelling -kull. There is clearly nothing voiced in that final syllable, and if the last vowel is a voiceless front-rounded u (the "French u" written in phonetics with a dieresis over it), then with a following voiceless l, the effect would be very similar. The other speaker, a woman, has what I hear as a clear tl. This clip has a couple of repeats, nicely spaced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqXc8i8CvNs The same sound sample, with a phonetic transcription, followed by a number of foreign attempts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jq-sMZtSww Both of the above have the same sound sample as the wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyjafjallajokull Unfortunately, the Wikipedia phonetic chart doesn't discuss tl, and we *know* that it isn't just a combination of t and l, as many English speakers pronounce it. In addition, the wikipedia entry for Icelandic language is somewhat suspect in matters of phonetics/phonology. It lists voiceless and velar laterals (l-sounds) as separate phonemes, but then it also gives aspirated and unaspirated voiceless stops as phonemes even though the text describes them as allophones. There is no mention of a Nahuatl-type tl. And if you aren't tired of Icelandic by now, scroll down to the very bottom of that last site to see the names of some of their other volcanoes! Cheers, Mary Quoting "Frye, David" : > Hello all, > > > > This is very off-topic, but I just heard a report on the volcano in > Iceland, Eyjafjallajokull, the one that is causing such aeronautic > trouble in Europe, and it sounded to my untrained ears that the > Icelandic pronunciation of their "ll" is precisely the same as > Nahuatl "tl." > > > > I also noticed that non-Icelandic reporters find it impossible to say. > > > > The New York Times pronunciation guide, > http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/iceland-volcano-spews-consonants-and-vowels/, turns the middle "ll" into two sounds, "t" followed by "l" (keeping the "t" with the preceding syllable and annexing the "l" to the following one), and then has this about that tricky final > -tl > sound: > > "the 't' at the end kind of sticks for a second and pulls away with a > hint of a glottal 'l.'" > > Guess that's the best you can do if you only have American English > phonemes to work with. > > > > David > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From theabroma at gmail.com Sat Apr 17 16:59:32 2010 From: theabroma at gmail.com (Sharon Peters) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:59:32 -0500 Subject: Icelandic -tl- In-Reply-To: <20100417123412.71ohgavls00owgg0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Re: phonetic fatigue ... alternatively, the sounds of the native Icelandic speakers could be saved to a .wav or .aiff file and loaded on Praat ... you could compare the sound waveforms and spectrograms of those speakers next to some words containing the /tl/ segment from native speakers of Nahuatl. Praat is public domain phonological analysis software, downloadable to many platforms, and available at www.praat.org. Great tool, and great fun to play with. Good tutorials available from the site a dn online, and a fairly shallow learning curve. Regards, Sharon Peters On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Clayton, Mary L. wrote: > Hello all, > Following David's tip, I found a couple of sound clips online that > purport to be by native speakers, and which sound very credible in that > they are nothing that a foreigner would come up with based on the > spelling. However, they are fairly different. Whether there are > different dialects of Icelandic I have no idea. > I've listened to the clearer (and somehow more convincing) of > these until my ears have phonetic fatigue and I have to leave it alone > for a while. (This is *great* fun for anyone in phonetics.) This one > includes a phonetic transcription, but even it seems to be a bit > influenced by spelling, in that the first consonant, spelled with f, > sounds clearly like a v (i.e., the voiced counterpart of f). For his > final syllable, I hear not tl but kl, that is, a laterally released > somewhat fronted k. This would make a certain amount of sense, given > the spelling -kull. There is clearly nothing voiced in that final > syllable, and if the last vowel is a voiceless front-rounded u (the > "French u" written in phonetics with a dieresis over it), then with a > following voiceless l, the effect would be very similar. The other > speaker, a woman, has what I hear as a clear tl. > > This clip has a couple of repeats, nicely spaced. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqXc8i8CvNs > > The same sound sample, with a phonetic transcription, followed by a > number of foreign attempts. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jq-sMZtSww > > > Both of the above have the same sound sample as the wiki article: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyjafjallajokull > > Unfortunately, the Wikipedia phonetic chart doesn't discuss tl, > and we *know* that it isn't just a combination of t and l, as many > English speakers pronounce it. In addition, the wikipedia entry for > Icelandic language is somewhat suspect in matters of > phonetics/phonology. It lists voiceless and velar laterals (l-sounds) > as separate phonemes, but then it also gives aspirated and unaspirated > voiceless stops as phonemes even though the text describes them as > allophones. There is no mention of a Nahuatl-type tl. > > And if you aren't tired of Icelandic by now, scroll down to the very > bottom of that last site to see the names of some of their other > volcanoes! > > Cheers, > Mary > > Quoting "Frye, David" : > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > This is very off-topic, but I just heard a report on the volcano in > > Iceland, Eyjafjallajokull, the one that is causing such aeronautic > > trouble in Europe, and it sounded to my untrained ears that the > > Icelandic pronunciation of their "ll" is precisely the same as > > Nahuatl "tl." > > > > > > > > I also noticed that non-Icelandic reporters find it impossible to say. > > > > > > > > The New York Times pronunciation guide, > > > http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/iceland-volcano-spews-consonants-and-vowels/, > turns the middle "ll" into two sounds, "t" followed by "l" (keeping the "t" > with the preceding syllable and annexing the "l" to the following one), and > then has this about that tricky final > > -tl > > sound: > > > > "the 't' at the end kind of sticks for a second and pulls away with a > > hint of a glottal 'l.'" > > > > Guess that's the best you can do if you only have American English > > phonemes to work with. > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- S?n Fronteras Aqu? estoy yo .... pero ya anda por M?xico mi coraz?n -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dfrye at umich.edu Sat Apr 17 18:49:50 2010 From: dfrye at umich.edu (Frye, David) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 14:49:50 -0400 Subject: Icelandic -tl- In-Reply-To: <20100417123412.71ohgavls00owgg0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I heard it on an NPR report, which i just found online. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126055027 The pronunciation question (with NPR's Joe Palca giving his best shot [he simplifies the final sound into -t], followed by an Icelandic volcano expert) begins at 2:51. -David ________________________________________ From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Clayton, Mary L. [clayton at indiana.edu] Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 12:34 PM To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Icelandic -tl- Hello all, Following David's tip, I found a couple of sound clips online that purport to be by native speakers, and which sound very credible in that they are nothing that a foreigner would come up with based on the spelling. However, they are fairly different. Whether there are different dialects of Icelandic I have no idea. I've listened to the clearer (and somehow more convincing) of these until my ears have phonetic fatigue and I have to leave it alone for a while. (This is *great* fun for anyone in phonetics.) This one includes a phonetic transcription, but even it seems to be a bit influenced by spelling, in that the first consonant, spelled with f, sounds clearly like a v (i.e., the voiced counterpart of f). For his final syllable, I hear not tl but kl, that is, a laterally released somewhat fronted k. This would make a certain amount of sense, given the spelling -kull. There is clearly nothing voiced in that final syllable, and if the last vowel is a voiceless front-rounded u (the "French u" written in phonetics with a dieresis over it), then with a following voiceless l, the effect would be very similar. The other speaker, a woman, has what I hear as a clear tl. This clip has a couple of repeats, nicely spaced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqXc8i8CvNs The same sound sample, with a phonetic transcription, followed by a number of foreign attempts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jq-sMZtSww Both of the above have the same sound sample as the wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyjafjallajokull Unfortunately, the Wikipedia phonetic chart doesn't discuss tl, and we *know* that it isn't just a combination of t and l, as many English speakers pronounce it. In addition, the wikipedia entry for Icelandic language is somewhat suspect in matters of phonetics/phonology. It lists voiceless and velar laterals (l-sounds) as separate phonemes, but then it also gives aspirated and unaspirated voiceless stops as phonemes even though the text describes them as allophones. There is no mention of a Nahuatl-type tl. And if you aren't tired of Icelandic by now, scroll down to the very bottom of that last site to see the names of some of their other volcanoes! Cheers, Mary Quoting "Frye, David" : > Hello all, > > > > This is very off-topic, but I just heard a report on the volcano in > Iceland, Eyjafjallajokull, the one that is causing such aeronautic > trouble in Europe, and it sounded to my untrained ears that the > Icelandic pronunciation of their "ll" is precisely the same as > Nahuatl "tl." > > > > I also noticed that non-Icelandic reporters find it impossible to say. > > > > The New York Times pronunciation guide, > http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/iceland-volcano-spews-consonants-and-vowels/, turns the middle "ll" into two sounds, "t" followed by "l" (keeping the "t" with the preceding syllable and annexing the "l" to the following one), and then has this about that tricky final > -tl > sound: > > "the 't' at the end kind of sticks for a second and pulls away with a > hint of a glottal 'l.'" > > Guess that's the best you can do if you only have American English > phonemes to work with. > > > > David > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Sat Apr 17 15:59:11 2010 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:59:11 +0100 Subject: Icelandic -tl- In-Reply-To: <3D190E83FA6906478970A9EDC5C5B9EB1A06225EA8@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: The wikipedia page for the volcano gives the IPA transcription as [???ja?fjatla?j??k?tl?] , Without being familiar with the phonetic details of either language, I claim: They are probably the same sound. A word final [t] followed by a voiceless [l] (as in the transcription of the name of the volcano) would not be different in realization from a word final dental lateral affricate, as Classical Nahuatl is reported to have. A voiceless [l] is only perceived through the disturbances it creates in the formants of adjacent vowels, so a word final voiceless [l] (lacking neighboring vocalic segments) is most likely to be realized as a lateral fricative if it is to be perceived. So the sounds should sound approximately the same, I am guessing. There are probably differences due to the particular places of articulation (e.g. dental/alveolar, apical/laminal) for each language. I have not heard the volcano word spoken before nor have I heard a native speaker of a Nahuatl dialect having the segment in question, so I am only speculating. On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Frye, David wrote: > Hello all, > > > > This is very off-topic, but I just heard a report on the volcano in > Iceland, Eyjafjallajokull, the one that is causing such aeronautic trouble > in Europe, and it sounded to my untrained ears that the Icelandic > pronunciation of their "ll" is precisely the same as Nahuatl "tl." > > > > I also noticed that non-Icelandic reporters find it impossible to say. > > > > The New York Times pronunciation guide, > http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/iceland-volcano-spews-consonants-and-vowels/, > turns the middle "ll" into two sounds, "t" followed by "l" (keeping the "t" > with the preceding syllable and annexing the "l" to the following one), and > then has this about that tricky final -tl sound: > > "the 't' at the end kind of sticks for a second and pulls away with a hint > of a glottal 'l.'" > > Guess that's the best you can do if you only have American English phonemes > to work with. > > > > David > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Apr 20 09:05:05 2010 From: wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk (wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:05:05 +0100 Subject: icelandic tl Message-ID: Hello to all who may be still interested, I hope this will put an end to all the misleading descriptions of the pronunciation of the Icelandic word. In this amusing little newsclip the name of the glacier is pronounced clearly several times, nice and slowly. It's definitely ['ejja-'fjatla-'joekytl] - as near as one can write it phonetically in an e-mail. The [tl] is certainly near enough identical to Nahuatl 'tl', evidently in Icelandic ll, and nn are usually pronounced as unvoiced tl and tn . http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/04/2010419171159919893.html William 'Huilotl' Wilcox -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Apr 20 23:38:59 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:38:59 -0500 Subject: icelandic tl Message-ID: Este tipo de distorsi?n me ha pasado cuando copio de un documento Word y lo pego en un mensaje de correo electr?nico que es para la lista NAHUAT-L. El remedio que encontr? es guardar el mensaje que quiero enviar en formato TXT, cerrarlo, abrir el archivo TXT y enviarlo a la lista, sea como archivo TXT o como archivo HTML. (Estoy usando Windows Vista y Outlook.) Con este procedimiento llega intacto el mensaje a los listeros, por lo menos en mi experiencia. Tal vez otros listeros con mayores conocimientos sobre formatos de archivo y juegos de caracteres puedan sugerir algo mejor. This sort of distortion has happened when I copy text from a Word document and paste it in an e-mail for the NAHUAT-L list. I have found a remedy, which is to save the message I'm trying to send as a TXT file, close it, then open the TXT file and send it to the list as a TXT or HTML file. (I'm using Windows Vista and Outlook.) With this procedure the message arrives intact to the subscribers to the list, at least in my experience. Perhaps other subscribers with a more sophisticated understading of file formats and character sets can suggest something better. David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl- bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Joost Kremers Enviado el: martes, 20 de abril de 2010 09:45 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] icelandic tl njYr y ? ! - [( wl )-j? z [ h n+2 V ? +ay jYe v b ?'- , ^ i " ~ j? '! ? w^ Z ? Mj [e k z. ? )-& , ? ) m6 ] ]4 N at 3 5 L, )\ ??r ?-xw hjYp ? )e {^ -y ! +0 Yi ?zwm e ^i? ?r *' k { r& ~ ^!?jwbs +t + " b ^ ,rX jg ~ ^ V ?? q \ ?+- ??z q v h \ ^~) rz8 ~6 zL 'y ? q +^ a w ? ( jw j)S e - ? \ y ? '^ ?j[h5 nj m u ( !?jwbrYZ j ?*k z. ?j? y ejwm Xm zx% Z 6 y ?  , ? Mt N? Mt _u ]y } iV Ybja Z- h r Qy zw- X ^ ) Xm zx% Z 6 y ?  , ? Mt N? Mt _u ]y } iBM X Yh X m ? b z z { ?z ]?? ]8 { ^} _| xm SZ ?f ) +-5 nj e l} i 0 *+ Y b ?~ j Rh J ? I ?|km x- +n g ?)h 2*?jf Y 7?; km x- g 5 nj fj)b b Z ?X ?? m jk" ? +- w v e _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From joostkremers at fastmail.fm Wed Apr 21 06:20:24 2010 From: joostkremers at fastmail.fm (Joost Kremers) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:20:24 +0200 Subject: icelandic tl In-Reply-To: <6E14329859954D499A926BBE74367533@WILLYWPC> Message-ID: Hi all, sorry about all the noise... Somewhere along the line, the headers in my email are rewritten, causing rubbish to come out. I'm sending this email is ASCII, which will hopefully make it to the list unharmed... To anyone interested, this is what I wrote in my original email: ============================================================================= Actually, to *my* ear (but who am I), the first -ll- sounds like a sequence of [t] plus [l] (might be bisyllabic). Only the final -ll sounds like a voiceless lateral plosive (affricate?) (which is my understanding of what Nahuatl tl is pronounced like...) Joost ============================================================================= When it came back from the list, my original email contained the following header: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 When I sent the email, however, this header had a different value: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The latter is actually correct. I have no idea why the header is being rewritten, but if you change the 'base64' in the headers back to '8bit', the email becomes readable again. (Well, on my system, anyway...) Joost On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:05:05AM +0100, wswilcox at blueyonder.co.uk wrote: > Hello to all who may be still interested, > > I hope this will put an end to all the misleading descriptions of the > pronunciation of the Icelandic word. In this amusing little newsclip the > name of the glacier is pronounced clearly several times, nice and slowly. > It's definitely ['ejja-'fjatla-'joekytl] - as near as one can write it > phonetically in an e-mail. > The [tl] is certainly near enough identical to Nahuatl 'tl', evidently in > Icelandic ll, and nn are usually pronounced as unvoiced tl and tn . > > [1]http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/04/2010419171159919893.html > > William 'Huilotl' Wilcox -- Joost Kremers Life has its moments _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed Apr 21 21:04:38 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:04:38 -0500 Subject: Character transmission on Nahuat-l Message-ID: A fellow listero sent me a private message with my last post to Nahuat-l at the end. I see the method I recommended didn't work with the accented vowels in the Spanish part of my text. I hadn't noticed problems with accents in previous posts. Can someone come up with simple guidelines to guarantee accurate transmission of our messages on this list? I think this has come up before but I don't remember what was said. Saludos, David > [Original Message] > From: David Wright > To: Nahuat-l > Date: 4/20/2010 06:39:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] icelandic tl > > Este tipo de distorsisn me ha pasado cuando copio de un documento Word > y lo > pego en un mensaje de correo electrsnico que es para la lista > NAHUAT-L. El remedio que encontri es guardar el mensaje que quiero > enviar en formato TXT, > cerrarlo, abrir el archivo TXT y enviarlo a la lista, sea como archivo TXT o > como archivo HTML. (Estoy usando Windows Vista y Outlook.) Con este > procedimiento llega intacto el mensaje a los listeros, por lo menos en > mi experiencia. Tal vez otros listeros con mayores conocimientos sobre formatos > de archivo y juegos de caracteres puedan sugerir algo mejor. > > This sort of distortion has happened when I copy text from a Word > document and paste it in an e-mail for the NAHUAT-L list. I have found > a remedy, which is to save the message I'm trying to send as a TXT > file, close it, then open the TXT file and send it to the list as a > TXT or HTML file. (I'm using Windows Vista and Outlook.) With this > procedure the message arrives intact to the subscribers to the list, > at least in my experience. Perhaps other subscribers with a more > sophisticated understading of file formats and > character sets can suggest something better. > > David > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl- > bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Joost Kremers Enviado el: > martes, 20 de abril de 2010 09:45 a.m. > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] icelandic tl > > njYr y ? ! - [( wl )-j? z [ h n+2 V g +ay jYe v b > ?'- , ^ i " ~ j? '! ? w^ Z ? Mj > [e k z. ? )-& , ? ) m6 ] ]4 N at 3 5 L, )\ ??r :-xw hjYp ? )e {^ > -y ! +0 Yi ?zwm e ^i? ?r > *' k { r& ~ ^!?jwbs > +t + " b ^ ,rX jg ~ ^ V ?? q \ ?+- ??z q v h \ ^~) rz8 > ~6 zL 'y ? q +^ a w > ? ( jw j)S e - ? \ y ? '^ ?j[h5 nj m u ( !?jwbrYZ j ?*k z. ?j? > y ejwm Xm zx% Z 6 y ?  , > ? Mt N? Mt _u ]y } iV Ybja Z- h r Qy zw- X ^ ) Xm zx% Z 6 y ? >  , ? Mt N? Mt _u ]y } > iBM > X Yh X m ? b z z { > ?z ]?? ]8 { ^} _| xm SZ ?f ) +-5 nj e l} i 0 *+ Y b > ?~ j Rh J ? > I ?|km x- +n g ?)h 2*?jf > Y 7?; km x- g 5 nj fj)b b Z ?X ?? m > jk" ? +- w v e > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Apr 22 00:39:38 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:39:38 -0500 Subject: Book review Message-ID: Estimados listeros: I recently ordered a book from Amazon with a promising (albeit choppy) title: "Vocabulario trilingue: Spanish language, Manuscript, Antonio de Nebrija, Nahuatl, Newberry Library", edited by Lambert M. Surhone, Miriam T. Timpledon, and Susan F. Marseken (Lexington: Betascript Publishing, 2010). The cost was $67 U.S. I have this book in my hands as I write. Page 1 has a very brief Wikipedia article about Ayer ms. 1478, a manuscript copy of Nebrija's Spanish-Latin dictionary, with a translation of each entry into Nahuatl. There is nothing else in the book regarding this manuscript. The rest of the content consists of Wikipedia articles on: "Spanish language," "Manuscript," "Antonio de Nebrija," "Nahuatl," "Newberry Library," "Chicago," "Illinois," "Cuneiform script," "Inscription," "Typewriter," and "Manuscript format." Strange, isn't it? Fortunately Amazon is letting me return it. I thought I should let you folks know before you make the same mistake I did. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Apr 22 01:20:06 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:20:06 -0500 Subject: Book review In-Reply-To: <000001cae1b4$4a479ad0$ded6d070$@net.mx> Message-ID: David, You got punked! John On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, David Wright wrote: > Estimados listeros: > > I recently ordered a book from Amazon with a promising (albeit choppy) title: ?Vocabulario trilingue: Spanish language, Manuscript, Antonio de Nebrija, Nahuatl, Newberry Library?, edited by Lambert M. Surhone, Miriam T. Timpledon, and Susan F. Marseken (Lexington: Betascript Publishing, 2010). The cost was $67 U.S. > > I have this book in my hands as I write. Page 1 has a very brief Wikipedia article about Ayer ms. 1478, a manuscript copy of Nebrija?s Spanish-Latin dictionary, with a translation of each entry into Nahuatl. There is nothing else in the book regarding this manuscript. The rest of the content consists of Wikipedia articles on: ?Spanish language,? ?Manuscript,? ?Antonio de Nebrija,? ?Nahuatl,? ?Newberry Library,? ?Chicago,? ?Illinois,? ?Cuneiform script,? ?Inscription,? ?Typewriter,? and ?Manuscript format.? > > Strange, isn?t it? Fortunately Amazon is letting me return it. I thought I should let you folks know before you make the same mistake I did. > > Saludos, > > David Wright > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From marthanoyes at hawaii.rr.com Thu Apr 22 01:40:21 2010 From: marthanoyes at hawaii.rr.com (martha noyes) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:40:21 -1000 Subject: Book review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.chrisrand.com/blog/index.php/2010/02/27/odd-tale-alphascript-publishing-betascript-publishing/ explains the book's publishers. And if you google "betascript" you'll see from their own website that they're simply reformatting Wikipedia and the links associated with entries. It's too bad Amazon, or any other bookseller, sells their product. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sullivan, Ph.D. To: David Wright Cc: Nahuat-l Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Book review David, You got punked! John On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:39 PM, David Wright wrote: Estimados listeros: I recently ordered a book from Amazon with a promising (albeit choppy) title: ?Vocabulario trilingue: Spanish language, Manuscript, Antonio de Nebrija, Nahuatl, Newberry Library?, edited by Lambert M. Surhone, Miriam T. Timpledon, and Susan F. Marseken (Lexington: Betascript Publishing, 2010). The cost was $67 U.S. I have this book in my hands as I write. Page 1 has a very brief Wikipedia article about Ayer ms. 1478, a manuscript copy of Nebrija?s Spanish-Latin dictionary, with a translation of each entry into Nahuatl. There is nothing else in the book regarding this manuscript. The rest of the content consists of Wikipedia articles on: ?Spanish language,? ?Manuscript,? ?Antonio de Nebrija,? ?Nahuatl,? ?Newberry Library,? ?Chicago,? ?Illinois,? ?Cuneiform script,? ?Inscription,? ?Typewriter,? and ?Manuscript format.? Strange, isn?t it? Fortunately Amazon is letting me return it. I thought I should let you folks know before you make the same mistake I did. Saludos, David Wright _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From stefanyteufel at yahoo.de Thu Apr 22 06:47:44 2010 From: stefanyteufel at yahoo.de (Stefanie Teufel) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:47:44 +0000 Subject: Book review In-Reply-To: <000001cae1b4$4a479ad0$ded6d070$@net.mx> Message-ID: Dear listeros, ?I have once read a review about the book "sacrifice in aztec culture" (publisher alpha books , probably the same as betascript): They use only articles from Wikipedia, but the photographies are worse. Best, Stefanie ________________________________ Von: David Wright An: Nahuat-l <> Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 22. April 2010, 2:39:38 Uhr Betreff: [Nahuat-l] Book review Estimados listeros: ? I recently ordered a book from Amazon with a promising (albeit choppy) title: ?Vocabulario trilingue: Spanish language, Manuscript, Antonio de Nebrija, Nahuatl, Newberry Library?, edited by Lambert M. Surhone, Miriam T. Timpledon, and Susan F. Marseken (Lexington: Betascript Publishing, 2010). The cost was $67 U.S. ? I have this book in my hands as I write. Page 1 has a very brief Wikipedia article about Ayer ms. 1478, a manuscript copy of Nebrija?s Spanish-Latin dictionary, with a translation of each entry into Nahuatl. There is nothing else in the book regarding this manuscript. The rest of the content consists of Wikipedia articles on: ?Spanish language,? ?Manuscript,? ?Antonio de Nebrija,? ?Nahuatl,? ?Newberry Library,? ?Chicago,? ?Illinois,? ?Cuneiform script,? ?Inscription,? ?Typewriter,? and ?Manuscript format.? ? Strange, isn?t it? Fortunately Amazon is letting me return it. I thought I should let you folks know before you make the same mistake I did. ? Saludos, ? David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Apr 27 03:33:19 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:33:19 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl and the academy Message-ID: Piyali listeros, Would anyone like to comment on what I perceive to be an underrepresentation of Nahuatl, or perhaps a lack of consolidation of its study in US university programs that deal with diverse aspects of American indigenous civilization. I know that in my area, Literature, South American languages have been overrepresented, at least since I was in graduate school. And the two graduate programs that I know of that actually specialize in indigenous languages, Iowa and UC Davis, don't offer classes in Nahuatl. Also, it seems to me that in schools where there are more than one person who works with some aspect of Nahuatl, they don't actually collaborate on anything. Has anyone thought about this? Does anyone plan on building a strong program in Nahuatl anywhere? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 15:37:34 2010 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:37:34 -0500 Subject: JOYAS BIBLIOGRAFICAS PARA EL ESTUDIO DEL NAHUATL, OTOMI Y TARASCO ACCESIBLES EN LA WEB Message-ID: Estimados foristas comparto con ustedes el descubrimiento de un verdadero tesoro que libre , gratuita y sin condici?n alguna ha puesto a disposici?n de todo quien desee obtenerlo una Universidad P?blica, quien mas si no ellas en M?xico, pues las privadas solo exprimen al cliente y conforman oligofr?nicos tecn?cratas o dips?manos y cr?pulas gobernantes como los que desde hace 25 a?os padecemos en este dolorido y ensangrentrado pa?s llamado M?xico. La Universidad Aut?noma de Nuevo Le?n por medio de su Direcci?n General de Bibliotecas ha hecho una notable obra , encomiable en todos sentidos y digna de admiraci?n, apoyo y respeto; creando la Colecci?n Digital UANL . Un ejemplo que ojala se repita e otras universidad de este pa?s y del mundo. Su direcci?n es http://cd.dgb.uanl.mx/index.php La UNAL ha puesto en linea parte fondos reservados "El objetivo de esta Colecci?n es difundir los documentos mediante el acceso electr?nico al texto completo de los mismos, a la vez que contribuir a su conservaci?n. Tiene como principal antecedente e inspiraci?n el Programa Memoria del Mundo de la UNESCO, cuyo prop?sito es asegurar la preservaci?n del patrimonio documental de importancia nacional y regional." "La Colecci?n Digital de la UANL est? conformada por documentos editados durante los siglos XVI al XIX, en espa?ol, italiano, franc?s y lat?n, as? como por las tesis de postgrado (Maestr?a, Especialidad y Doctorado) generadas en la UANL y por otros documentos de inter?s para la investigaci?n. Los documentos de esta colecci?n forman parte de los acervos bibliogr?ficos que poseen la Biblioteca Universitaria Ra?l Rangel Fr?as, Capilla Alfonsina Biblioteca Universitaria, Centro Regional de Informaci?n y Documentaci?n en Salud de la Facultad de Medicina y Biblioteca Jos? Juan Vallejo de la Facultad de Derecho y Criminolog?a. La Colecci?n Digital de la UANL, esta integrada actualmente por: 16,766 t?tulos con 17,430 vol?menes. De manera gratuita, libre ,sin condici?n alguna , sin tener que recibir basura en tu correo : LOS ESTUDIOSOS DEL NAHUATL A TODO NIVEL ENCUENTRAN EN ?STA BIBLIOTECA DIGITAL DE LA UANL VERDADERAS E INAPRECIABLES JOYAS BIBLIOGR?FICAS COMO: *Arte mexicana / compuesta por Antonio del Rinc?n.* M?xico: Oficina Tip. de la Secretar?a de Fomento, 1885. Edicion preparada por Antonio Pe?afiel Arte Mexicana por el jesuita Antonio del Rincon , indio texocoano y que fue publicado originalmente en 1595, Nahuatl texcocano EN ESTE MISMO VOLUMEN SE ENCUENTRA TAMBIEN PUBLICADO *Arte de la lengua mexicana por el Padre Horacio Carochi.* Los estudiosos del Nahuatl saben lo valioso que es esta joya publicada originalmente en 1695 Arte de la Lengua tarasca de Diego de Basalenque publicada en 1714 Todo esto manjar en el siguiente link http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080018793/1080018793.html y la muy interezante obra del Nahuatl de la regi?n cazcana, DE JALISCO, ZACATECAS Y DURANGO se encuentra ?sta edici?n preparada por el notable historiador Santoscoy.y publiicada en 1900: *Arte de lengua mexicana que fue usual entre los indios del Obispado de Guadalajara y de parte de los de Durango y Michoac?n, escrito en 1692 / por Fr. Juan Guerra.Guadalajara, Jal.: Ancira y Hno., 1900.* http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080013823/1080013823.html Y tamabien con varios materiales mas incluidos en este volumen encontramos: T?tulo: A*rte de la lengua mexicana / el Br. en sagrada teolog?a Rafael Sandoval Autor: Sandoval, Rafael Tiburcio. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Tip. La Reproducci?n, 1888* Materia: Nahua -- Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): 18443 http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080013824/1080013824.html Y para los estudiosos del otomi como nuestro siempre generoso forista David Wright que sufre con las ventas de libros frudulentos o mal editados la biblioteca digital de la UNAL contiene esto: *Luces de Otom? ? gram?tica del idioma que hablan los indios otom?es en la Rep?blica Mexicana / por Eustaquio Buelna. Autor: Buelna, Eustaquio, 1830-1907.* Pie de imprenta: M?xico: Imp. del Gobierno Federal, 1893 Materia: Indios de M?xico -- Lenguas. / Otom?es. N?mero de control (Bibid): 17692 Este trae en su Libro segundo puro manajar para los estudiosos del otomi pues contienene este libro segundo: *Luces del Otom? observadas ? tres famosos lenguaraces, los padres Horacio Carochi y Francisco Jim?nez, de la Compa??a de Jes?s, u Juan S?nchez de la Baquera, secular de Tula.* Y en su Cap?tulo vig?simo primero - Cap?tulo vig?simo segundo Cap?tulo vig?simo primero. *Luz de algunos adverbios que usaban los disc?pulos de Juan S?nchez. Cap?tulo vig?simo segundo. Diccionario formado de algunos t?rminos observados en algunos papeles y disc?pulos de Juan S?nchez de la Baquera. Libro tercero. De las luces que ?tilmente se consiguieron de D. Lu?s de Neve, presb?tero, sinodal de este Arzobispado. * http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080012545/1080012545.html T?tulo: Luces del otomi ? gram?tica del idioma que hablan los indios otom?es en la republica mexicana, compuesta / un padre de la compa??a de Jes?s Autor: [Basilio, Tomas], 1654- Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Imp. del Gobierno Federal, 1893 Materia: Otom?. N?mero de control (Bibid): 66154 Es el contenido anterior de la edici?n de don Eustaquio Buelna, sabio sinaloense. http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080043172/1080043172.html *T?tulo: Lenguas ind?genas de M?xico : Familia mixteco - zapoteco y sus relaciones con el otomi.- Familia zoque-mixe.-chontal.- Huave y mexicano / Francisco Belmar Autor: Belmar, Francisco, 1859* Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Impr. Particular, 1905 Materia: Indios de M?xico -- Lenguas. N?mero de control (Bibid): 34290 http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080018786/1080018786.html A continuaci?n comparto el resultado de la busqueda de titulos en esta Biblioteca virtual por medio de distintas palabras clave. Encontrando los siguientes materiales utiles para el estudio del Nahuatl: Ha buscado : nahua Resultados desde el 1 hasta el 10 de un total de 18 encontrados. Nueva b?squeda T?tulo: Annales de Domingo Francisco de San Anton Chimalpahin Cuauhtlehuanitzin, sixieme et septieme relations (1258-1612) Autor: Chimalpain Cuauhtlehuanitzin, Domingo Francisco de San Ant?n Mu??n, 1579-1660. Pie de imprenta: Par?s : Maisonneuve et Ch. Leclerc, 1889 Materia: Nahua -- Textos. / M?xico -- Historia. N?mero de control (Bibid): 17309 T?tulo: Arte de la lengua mexicana / el Br. en sagrada teolog?a Rafael Sandoval Autor: Sandoval, Rafael Tiburcio. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Tip. La Reproducci?n, 1888 Materia: Nahua -- Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): 18443 T?tulo: Arte de lengua mexicana que fu? usual entre los indios del obispado de Guadalajara y de parte de los de Durango y Michoac?n, escrito en 1692 / Fr. Juan Guerra Autor: Guerra, Juan, fl. 1690. Pie de imprenta: Guadalajara, Jal. : Ancira y Hno., 1900 Materia: Nahua -- Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): 18442 T?tulo: Arte mexicana. / compuesta por Antonio del Rinc?n Autor: Rinc?n, Antonio del, 1556-1601. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Oficina Tip. de la Secretar?a de Fomento, 1885 Materia: Nahua -- Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): 34299 T?tulo: Arte mexicana. compuesta por el padre Antonio del Rinc?n de la Compa?ia de Jesus ; dirigido al illustrissimo y reverendissimo S. Don Diego Romano Obispo de Tlaxcallan y el consejo de su Magestad &c. en M?xico en casa de Pedro Balli, 1595. Autor: Rinc?n, Antonio del 1556-1601. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Oficina Tip. de la Secretar?a de Fomento, 1885. Notas: Se reimprime en 1885 bajo el ciudado del Dr. Antonio Pe?afiel. Materia: Nahua Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): UANL001007328 T?tulo: Curso catequ?stico para el uso de las escuelas y colegios ; colecci?n gradual de catecismos de doctrina cristiana, religi?n y urbanidad arreglos para el seminario de Morelia Autor: Ripalda, Ger?nimo de, 1536-1618. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Imp. de J.M. Lara Materia: Nahua -- Textos. N?mero de control (Bibid): UANL000175926 T?tulo: Diccionario de aztequismos o sea cat?logo de las palabras del idioma nahuatl, azteca o mexicano introducidas al idioma castellano bajo diversas formas / Cecilio A. Robelo. Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Imprenta del Autor, 1904. Materia: Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Espa?ol. N?mero de control (Bibid): 70516 T?tulo: Ep?tome o modo f?cil de aprender el idioma nahuatl o lengua mexicana / Faustino Chimalpopoca Autor: Galicia Chimalpopoca, Faustino, m. 1877. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Tip. de la V. de Murgu?a e hijos, Portal del Aguila de Oro, [s.a.] Materia: Nahua -- Dialectos. / Nahua -- Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): 67887 T?tulo: Estudio de la filosof?a y riqueza de la lengua mexicana / Agust?n de la Rosa Autor: Rosa, Agust?n de la, 1824-1907. Pie de imprenta: Guadalajara, Jal. : Est. Tip. del Gob., 1889 Materia: Nahua -- Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): 33077 T?tulo: Glosario de voces castellanas, derivadas del idioma Nahuatl o Mexicano / Jes?s S?nchez Autor: Sanchez, Jes?s. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Imp. de la Soc. Agricola Mexicana, 1902 Materia: Nahua. / Nahua -- Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): 71927 T?tulo: Gram?tica del idioma mexicano, seg?n el sistema de Ollendorff/ el presb?tero Dar?o Julio Caballero Autor: Caballero, Dar?o Julio. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Tip. Literaria de Filomeno Mata, 1880 Materia: Nahua -- Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): 18438 T?tulo: Historia General de las Cosas de Nueva Espa?a / por el R. P. Fr. Bernardino de Sahag?n. Autor: Sahag?n, Bernardino de, Fray, 1499?-1590. Pie de imprenta: M?xico: impr. del Ciudadano A. Vald?s, 1829-9999 Materia: Indios de M?xico -- Antig?edades. / Aztecas. / Calendario mexicano. / Nahua -- Textos. / M?xico -- Historia -- Descubrimiento y conquista, 1517-1521. N?mero de control (Bibid): 17801 T?tulo: Las aztecas : poes?as, tomadas de los antiguos cantares mexicanos / Jos? Joaqu?n Pesado Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Impr. de V. Segura Arguelles, 1854 Materia: Poes?a nahua -- Traducciones al espa?ol. / Poes?a nahua -- Colecciones. N?mero de control (Bibid): 33569 T?tulo: Nombres geogr?ficos de M?xico : cat?logo alfab?tico de los nombres de lugar pertenecientes al idioma nahuatl ; estudio gerogl?fico de la matricula de los tributos del Codice Mendocino / Antonio Pe?afiel. Autor: Pe?afiel, Antonio, 1831-1922. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Secretar?a de Fomento, 1885, Materia: Nombres geogr?ficos -- M?xico. / Nahua. / Escritura pict?rica mexicana. / Codex Mendocino. N?mero de control (Bibid): 34215 T?tulo: Nombres geogr?ficos ind?genas del estado de Morelos : Estudio cr?tico de varias obras de toponomateolog?a Nahua / el Lic. Cecilio A.Robelo Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Impr. Luis G. Miranda, 1897 Materia: Nombres geogr?ficos -- M?xico -- Morelos. / Nahua -- Gram?tica. / Nahua -- Etimolog?as -- Nombres. / Indios de M?xico -- Nombres. N?mero de control (Bibid): 18453 T?tulo: Toponimia maya-hispano-nahoa / por Cecilio A. Robelo. Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Curnavaca: Impr. de Jos? D. Rojas, 1902 Materia: Nombres geogr?ficos -- M?xico. / Nahua -- Etimolog?as -- Nombres. / Maya -- Etimolog?as -- Nombres. N?mero de control (Bibid): 62022 T?tulo: Vocabulario comparativo castellano y n?huatl / Cecilio A. Rabelo Autor: Rabelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Luis G. Miranda, 1888 Materia: Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Espa?ol. / Espa?ol -- Diccionarios -- Nahua. N?mero de control (Bibid): 34220 T?tulo: Vocabulario comparativo castellano y nahuatl / el Lic. Cecilio A. Robelo Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : L.G. Miranda, 1888 Materia: Espa?ol -- Diccionarios -- Nahua. / Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Espa?ol. N?mero de control (Bibid): 18449 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx bajo la busqueda por Nahuatl Ha buscado : nahuatl Resultados desde el 1 hasta el 7 de un total de 7 encontrados. Nueva b?squeda 1 T?tulo: Diccionario de aztequismos : ? sea, cat?logo de las palabras del idioma nahuatl, azteca ? mexicano, introducidos al idioma castellano bajo diversas formas (contribuci?n al diccionario nacional) / Cecilio A. Robelo Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Impr. del autor, 1904 Materia: Espa?ol -- Provincialismos -- M?xico. / Espa?ol -- Palabras y frases de or?gen extranjero -- Azteca. N?mero de control (Bibid): 18397 T?tulo: Diccionario de aztequismos o sea cat?logo de las palabras del idioma nahuatl, azteca o mexicano introducidas al idioma castellano bajo diversas formas / Cecilio A. Robelo. Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Imprenta del Autor, 1904. Materia: Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Espa?ol. N?mero de control (Bibid): 70516 T?tulo: Ep?tome o modo f?cil de aprender el idioma nahuatl o lengua mexicana / Faustino Chimalpopoca Autor: Galicia Chimalpopoca, Faustino, m. 1877. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Tip. de la V. de Murgu?a e hijos, Portal del Aguila de Oro, [s.a.] Materia: Nahua -- Dialectos. / Nahua -- Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): 67887 T?tulo: Glosario de voces castellanas, derivadas del idioma Nahuatl o Mexicano / Jes?s S?nchez Autor: Sanchez, Jes?s. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Imp. de la Soc. Agricola Mexicana, 1902 Materia: Nahua. / Nahua -- Gram?tica. N?mero de control (Bibid): 71927 T?tulo: Nombres geogr?ficos de M?xico : cat?logo alfab?tico de los nombres de lugar pertenecientes al idioma nahuatl ; estudio gerogl?fico de la matricula de los tributos del Codice Mendocino / Antonio Pe?afiel. Autor: Pe?afiel, Antonio, 1831-1922. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : Secretar?a de Fomento, 1885, Materia: Nombres geogr?ficos -- M?xico. / Nahua. / Escritura pict?rica mexicana. / Codex Mendocino. N?mero de control (Bibid): 34215 T?tulo: Vocabulario comparativo castellano y n?huatl / Cecilio A. Rabelo Autor: Rabelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : Luis G. Miranda, 1888 Materia: Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Espa?ol. / Espa?ol -- Diccionarios -- Nahua. N?mero de control (Bibid): 34220 T?tulo: Vocabulario comparativo castellano y nahuatl / el Lic. Cecilio A. Robelo Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca : L.G. Miranda, 1888 Materia: Espa?ol -- Diccionarios -- Nahua. / Nahua -- Diccionarios -- Espa?ol. N?mero de control (Bibid): 18449 Ha buscado : nahoa Resultados desde el 1 hasta el 3 de un total de 3 encontrados. T?tulo: Diccionario de mitolog?a nahoa / Cecilio A. Robelo. Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: M?xico : impr. del Museo Nacional, 1905 Materia: Mitolog?a azteca -- Diccionarios. N?mero de control (Bibid): 17706 T?tulo: Sinopsis topon?mica Nahoa del Distrito Federal Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Cuernavaca, Mor.: Tip. y Lib. Jos? D. Rojas, 1901 Materia: Nombres geogr?ficos -- M?xico. N?mero de control (Bibid): 18811 T?tulo: Toponimia maya-hispano-nahoa / por Cecilio A. Robelo. Autor: Robelo, Cecilio Agust?n, 1839-1916. Pie de imprenta: Curnavaca: Impr. de Jos? D. Rojas, 1902 Materia: Nombres geogr?ficos -- M?xico. / Nahua -- Etimolog?as -- Nombres. / Maya -- Etimolog?as -- Nombres. N?mero de control (Bibid): 62022 Los investigadores interesados en la historia de la conquista y vida colonial de Nueva Galicia, Zacatecas, Jalisco, Nayarit, La Nueva Vizcaya, la rebelion Cazcana, la Tepehuana, la Guerra chichimeca , los Huicholes , los Coras, la arqueologia de la quemada , la independencia de M?xico , el imperio de maximiliano, la epoca santanista, etct, etc encontraran en esta biblioteca verdaderas e inapreciables joyas bibliogr?ficas muchas de ellas inconseguibles de forma f?sica como por ejemplo los textos de Frejes, Arlegui, Mota Padilla, el segundo volumen del padre Tello o la notable historia del zacatecano Elias Amador, la obra de Carlos Maria de Bustamante, etc, etc. DESEO QUE LOS FORITAS PUEDAN RECOMENDAR Y DIFUNDIR ESTE VALIOSO RECURSO QUE OFRECE LA UANL DE MEXICO ENTRE SUS COLEGAS Y ALUMNOS E IMPULSEN SE REPITA SU EJEMPLO ENTRE OTRAS UNIVERSIDADES DE MEXICO Y EL MUNDO COLOCANDO EN LA WEB FONDOS RESERVADOS PARA LA DIFUSI?N DEL SABER HUMANO Y DE FORMA LIBRE ,GRATUITA Y SIN CONDICIONES. Un saludo para todos desde la hoy muy calurosa "garganta de tierra adentro" en M?xico ROBERTO ROMERO GUTIERREZ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Apr 27 16:38:47 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:38:47 -0500 Subject: JOYAS BIBLIOGRAFICAS PARA EL ESTUDIO DEL NAHUATL, OTOMI Y TARASCO ACCESIBLES EN LA WEB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gracias por difundir este sitio, Roberto. Ya he trabajado esta veta y tengo estas obras en mi disco duro y en respaldos en discos DVD. Son de muy buena resoluci?n, a colores, casi como tener los ejemplares originales en la mesa de trabajo. Sigo tu buen ejemplo y apunto la direcci?n de tres sitios adicionales que ofrecen un servicio similar. La primera tiene varias obras descriptivas acerca de las lenguas n?huatl, otom?, pur?pecha, quechua, aymara y muisca. Se llama Memoria Chilena; el sitio es de la Direcci?n de Bibliotecas, Archivos y Museos de Chile. Entre otras cosas hay un facs?mil digital del pseudofacs?mil de 1880 del vocabulario de Molina de 1571 (la edici?n de 1880 es la que ha servida de base para las ediciones publicadas por la Editorial Porr?a): http://www.memoriachilena.cl//temas/index.asp?id_ut=gramaticasdiccionariosyc atecismoscolonialesenlenguasindigenas Tambi?n hay varias joyas de la ling??stica novohispana en la Biblioteca Virtual Miguel de Cervantes (El vocabulario de Molina de 1555, su Arte de 1571, el Tesoro de la lengua castellana de Sebasti?n Cobarruvias [sic] Orozco, indispensable para entender el castellano del periodo Novohispano Temprano, etc?tera): http://www.cervantesvirtual.com La edici?n en el sitio anterior de Cobarruvias es la segunda, de 1673-1674. Hay un facs?mil de la primera edici?n, de 1611, en el Fondo Antiguo de la Biblioteca de la Universidad de Sevilla: http://fondosdigitales.us.es/fondos/libros/765/16/tesoro-de-la-lengua-castel lana-o-espanola Cada d?a tenemos mejores herramientas de trabajo, gracias al trabajo desinteresado de estas instituciones y otras. Saludos y buen provecho a todos los listeros, David Wright _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From noreply at badoo.com Thu Apr 29 23:56:13 2010 From: noreply at badoo.com (Badoo) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 23:56:13 +0000 Subject: Ignacio Silva C te ha dejado un mensaje... Message-ID: Ignacio Silva C te ha dejado un mensaje... El mensaje y la persona que lo envi? solo te ser? mostrado a ti y borrarlo en cualquier momento. Puedes responder a trav?s del sistema de intercambio de mensajes. 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Si no quieres recibir m?s mensajes de Badoo, h?znoslo saber: http://us1.badoo.com/impersonation.phtml?lang_id=7&mail_code=21&email=nahuatl%40lists.famsi.org&secret=&invite_id=522046&user_id=1116198906 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl