From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sun Aug 1 17:01:44 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John Schwaller) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 13:01:44 -0400 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: <46060E45C2C441748BBAE153FFC5B274@baert> Message-ID: The convention which we use on this list, and in general in places where diactitics don't appear properly, is to place a colon (:) after the long vowel: to:ca:itl On 7/31/2010 6:16 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: > > /Special signs./ > > /It is very annoying writing Nahuatl with a modern azerty keyboard./ > > /For example the word tocaitl, has a long --o- and a long --a-./ > > /Therefore a little marking line should be above the two vowels./ > > /Every time one must insert a special sign, working with Words./ > > /In fact this is a very old-fashioned rule if I may say./ > > /In the Dutch language we have a rule to write long vowels twice./ > > /For example: to go = gaan./ > > /Tocaitl should be than writing, toocaaitl, and one should no longer > open special signs./ > > /I don't know if there exist special keyboards with those special signs./ > > /Or.../ > > /Cuix o-ni-n-ix-cuep? / > > /Or... Cuix oo-ni-n-ix-cuep?/ > > /Lahun Ik 62 / > > /Baert Georges/ > > /Flanders// Fields/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu tel: 315-265-2100 fax 315-265-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Aug 1 20:49:49 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 16:49:49 -0400 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: <46060E45C2C441748BBAE153FFC5B274@baert> Message-ID: It's an interesting topic though it seems as if tradition resistance would rule against its usage (although that hasn't stopped folks from using "k" for tradition "qu,"cu," etc...). In the Algonquian language family long vowels in some languages, including Proto-Algonquian and Southern Unami, are marked with a raised dot following the vowel, while in other languages gemination is the rule, as for example in Sauk and Miami-Illinois. In general, I think geminated orthographic symbols, simply from sight, are easier to remember than single symbols marked in a variety of ways. Best, Michael Quoting lahunik.62 at skynet.be: > Special signs. > > It is very annoying writing Nahuatl with a modern azerty keyboard. > > For example the word tocaitl, has a long -o- and a long -a-. > > Therefore a little marking line should be above the two vowels. > > Every time one must insert a special sign, working with Words. > > In fact this is a very old-fashioned rule if I may say. > > In the Dutch language we have a rule to write long vowels twice. > > For example: to go = gaan. > > Tocaitl should be than writing, toocaaitl, and one should no longer open > special signs. > > I don't know if there exist special keyboards with those special signs. > > Or. > > Cuix o-ni-n-ix-cuep? > > Or. Cuix oo-ni-n-ix-cuep? > > Lahun Ik 62 > > Baert Georges > > Flanders Fields > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Aug 1 20:51:11 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 16:51:11 -0400 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: <4C55A878.5030407@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: This practice is common for other languages that, in publications, generally mark long vowels (and consonants!) with a raised dot. Michael Quoting John Schwaller : > The convention which we use on this list, and in general in places > where diactitics don't appear properly, is to place a colon (:) after > the long vowel: > to:ca:itl > > > On 7/31/2010 6:16 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: >> >> /Special signs./ >> >> /It is very annoying writing Nahuatl with a modern azerty keyboard./ >> >> /For example the word tocaitl, has a long --o- and a long --a-./ >> >> /Therefore a little marking line should be above the two vowels./ >> >> /Every time one must insert a special sign, working with Words./ >> >> /In fact this is a very old-fashioned rule if I may say./ >> >> /In the Dutch language we have a rule to write long vowels twice./ >> >> /For example: to go = gaan./ >> >> /Tocaitl should be than writing, toocaaitl, and one should no longer >> open special signs./ >> >> /I don't know if there exist special keyboards with those special signs./ >> >> /Or.../ >> >> /Cuix o-ni-n-ix-cuep? / >> >> /Or... Cuix oo-ni-n-ix-cuep?/ >> >> /Lahun Ik 62 / >> >> /Baert Georges/ >> >> /Flanders// Fields/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu > > tel: 315-265-2100 > fax 315-265-2496 > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Aug 1 23:30:38 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:30:38 -0500 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: <20100801165111.uon3ibzjeo00skcw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Baert, Using a double vowel to represent vowel length is not a good idea for Nahuatl because vowel elision varies from dialect to dialect. In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for example, repeated short vowels are very common. Here are some examples: 1. niitztoc, "I am (place or state)." 2. quiitta, "he/she sees him/her/it." 3. moohhui, "your road." Here's a double long vowel. a:a:chi:xqui, "he/she waited for their turn at the well after all." John Sent from my iPhone On Aug 1, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > This practice is common for other languages that, in publications, > generally mark long vowels (and consonants!) with a raised dot. > > Michael > > Quoting John Schwaller : > >> The convention which we use on this list, and in general in places >> where diactitics don't appear properly, is to place a colon (:) after >> the long vowel: >> to:ca:itl >> >> >> On 7/31/2010 6:16 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: >>> >>> /Special signs./ >>> >>> /It is very annoying writing Nahuatl with a modern azerty keyboard./ >>> >>> /For example the word tocaitl, has a long --o- and a long --a-./ >>> >>> /Therefore a little marking line should be above the two vowels./ >>> >>> /Every time one must insert a special sign, working with Words./ >>> >>> /In fact this is a very old-fashioned rule if I may say./ >>> >>> /In the Dutch language we have a rule to write long vowels twice./ >>> >>> /For example: to go = gaan./ >>> >>> /Tocaitl should be than writing, toocaaitl, and one should no longer >>> open special signs./ >>> >>> /I don't know if there exist special keyboards with those special signs./ >>> >>> /Or.../ >>> >>> /Cuix o-ni-n-ix-cuep? / >>> >>> /Or... Cuix oo-ni-n-ix-cuep?/ >>> >>> /Lahun Ik 62 / >>> >>> /Baert Georges/ >>> >>> /Flanders// Fields/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> -- >> John F. Schwaller >> President >> SUNY Potsdam >> 44 Pierrepont Ave. >> Potsdam, NY 13676 >> schwallr at potsdam.edu >> >> tel: 315-265-2100 >> fax 315-265-2496 >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Aug 2 09:31:30 2010 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 02:31:30 -0700 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To help typing macron characters, or any Unicode character not on the keyboard, I wrote TYPECASE http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk/3d/typecase_vc.zip It is like Windows's Character Map but its screen display is much bigger and clearer. It handles all possible Unicode 16-bit characters. It was compiled with Visual C++ 2008. --- On Mon, 2/8/10, John Sullivan wrote: Baert, Using a double vowel to represent vowel length is not a good idea for Nahuatl because vowel elision varies from dialect to dialect. In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for example, repeated short vowels are very common. Here are some examples: 1. niitztoc, "I am (place or state)." 2. quiitta, "he/she sees him/her/it." 3. moohhui, "your road." Here's a double long vowel. a:a:chi:xqui, "he/she waited for their turn at the well after all." John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 2 13:27:58 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 08:27:58 -0500 Subject: Special signs Message-ID: Listeros: In Word 2007 (Insertar > Símbolo) you can click on any character, then on the button “Teclas”, then “Nueva tecla de metodo abreviado” (sorry, my computer speaks Castilian), then invent any keystroke combination you like. I use control+shift+a for the letter A with a macron, for example. With a little practice I was able to write Nahuatl almost as easily as Castilian or English (where typing is concerned; the big challenges lie in other areas). Saludos desde Guanajuato, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 16:21:18 2010 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:21:18 -0500 Subject: Special signs Message-ID: Saludos a todos En donde estoy la mayor parte del día, yo uso regularmente una laptop del "preclásico superior", la cual es un equipo Compaq Pentium III con sólo 96 mb de Ram y con sólo dos y medio GB de capacidad deDD y como sistema operativo un WinMe . La otra mitad del disco tiene una distribución Linux, española gallega llamada MiniNO. En este equipo en Windows yo uso un procesador de palabras denominado Jarte el cual es super ligero, se puede instalar en una usb y tiene una muy buena función para insertar caracteres especiales desde mi teclado en español y un muy poderoso clip manager que sirve como buen complemento de aquella . Jarte viene en una versión Free, sin costo alguno y libre de cualquier software pernicioso teniendo las prestaciones de caracteres especiales y clip manager señaladas . El programa Jarte funciona desde sistemas operativos WinMe. WinXP hasta WindowsVista Jarte tiene una versión plus que le da a uno mayores prestaciones a un costo muy barato de 20 dolares El enlace directo a la página de Jarte es éste: http://www.jarte.com/ Es muy recomendable este pequeño y buen programa. Pra un idioma indígena existe el procesador de palabras Abiword en Linux, Windows y otras plataformas. Abiword tiene versiones en Aymara. Esta es de un desarrollo partícular http://www.runasimipi.org/blanco.php?file=abiword Y en la version cerada desde el gobierno de Bolivia http://www.educabolivia.bo/descargas/AbiWord.zip Espero sea util esta información Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Mon Aug 2 15:10:14 2010 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amaya) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 10:10:14 -0500 Subject: Sufijos de Posici=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n?= In-Reply-To: <20100730090454.qofkxopyf48o0oss@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hallo Michael, Hallo Paul I'd like to add some words to the the topic. 1. Ikpan (noikpan). It is related to ic and pa(n). So, the meaning of noikpan is "because of me" or secondly: "around me". The word to express behind is ican/icampa (ican+pa) so you can say noicampa, moicampa iicampa, etc. in order to mean behind me, behind you, behind him, etc. 2. lampa. We say callan to mean something like "outside the house" / "some place near the house"; it is made up of cal (calli=house) and tlan--> lan (tlan: next to, on, etc), plus "pa", that specifies/reinforces the idea of place. So for example, when you say: nicnequi niaz callampa you are meaning "I want to go outdoors". But attention! If you say: nicnequi niaz callan, you are meaning "I want to go to the WC". 3. Caltenoj = caltenoh, related to "caltenco" (nahuatl central), it means "at the edge of the house". Composition: cal (calli) + tentli (lip/edge/border) + co (locative). Today it is used to mean "yard" (patio) or "in front of the house", but you have to remember that in ancient times there were no roads or walls among the houses (it can still be seen in some indian villages), so, at the edge, "border" of the house people used to put stones or trunks on which they sat down to talk. Tomas Amaya -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Michael McCafferty Enviado el: Viernes, 30 de Julio de 2010 08:05 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Sufijos de Posición Hard to say, Paul, without more data. Note, however, that in the so-called classical language, certain postpositions have become inalienably associated with certain nouns. That may be the case with your modern dialect. For example, one may just not see -lampa associated with possessive pronouns such as no- even though the structure *nolampa is technically grammatical. Michael Quoting Paul Allen Hudson : > Hi all: > > I'm trying to figure out the difference between the locative suffixes > "in front of" and "behind" in the Náhuat of the Cuetzálan region of > the sierra norte of Puebla. For each locative position, there are two > suffixes: > > -ikpan behind ej. noikpan... behind me > -lampa behind ej. kallampa...behind the house > > -ixpan in front of ej. noixpan...in front of me > -tenoj in front of ej. kaltenoj...in front of the house > > Thus far I haven't been able to figure out when to use one and not > the other, except for sometimes one or the other does not sound as > "correct." Is it a difference between animate and inanimate objects > or possible between things that are stationary and things that aren't? > > > Paul Hudson > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl __________ Información de ESET Smart Security, versión de la base de firmas de virus 5321 (20100728) __________ ESET Smart Security ha comprobado este mensaje. http://www.eset.com __________ Información de ESET Smart Security, versión de la base de firmas de virus 5332 (20100802) __________ ESET Smart Security ha comprobado este mensaje. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Aug 2 23:10:40 2010 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:10:40 -0700 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: <245781.33114.qm@web86705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry again. It is http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk/software/typecase_vc.zip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Tue Aug 3 22:46:30 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 00:46:30 +0200 Subject: Special Signs Message-ID: Dear Mister Wright, Thanks for the lesson in Word. After a little searching I have found what you meant. One has to change the function of the fast keys, the F-keys on top of the keyboard. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From paul.hudson at udlap.mx Tue Aug 3 13:51:49 2010 From: paul.hudson at udlap.mx (Paul Allen Hudson) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:51:49 -0500 Subject: Sufijos de Posici=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n?= In-Reply-To: <001b01cb3254$cfe9aa70$6fbcff50$@net.mx> Message-ID: Gracias Tomás. You have cleared up my confusion considerably. Paul ________________________________________ De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Tomas Amaya [t_amaya at megared.net.mx] Enviado el: lunes, 02 de agosto de 2010 10:10 a.m. Para: 'Michael McCafferty'; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Sufijos de Posición Hallo Michael, Hallo Paul I'd like to add some words to the the topic. 1. Ikpan (noikpan). It is related to ic and pa(n). So, the meaning of noikpan is "because of me" or secondly: "around me". The word to express behind is ican/icampa (ican+pa) so you can say noicampa, moicampa iicampa, etc. in order to mean behind me, behind you, behind him, etc. 2. lampa. We say callan to mean something like "outside the house" / "some place near the house"; it is made up of cal (calli=use) and tlan--> lan (tlan: next to, on, etc), plus "pa", that specifies/reinforces the idea of place. So for example, when you say: nicnequi niaz callampa you are meaning "I want to go outdoors". But attention! If you say: nicnequi niaz callan, you are meaning "I want to go to the WC". 3. Caltenoj Êltenoh, related to "caltenco" (nahuatl central), it means "at the edge of the house". Composition: cal (calli) + tentli (lip/edge/border) + co (locative). Today it is used to mean "yard" (patio) or "in front of the house", but you have to remember that in ancient times there were no roads or walls among the houses (it can still be seen in some indian villages), so, at the edge, "border" of the house people used to put stones or trunks on which they sat down to talk. Tomas Amaya _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 12 16:59:13 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:59:13 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=BFConoces_la_Declaraci=F3n_de_las_Naciones_Unidas_sobr?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?e_los_Derechos_de_los_Pueblos_Ind=EDgenas=3F?= Message-ID: Estimados listeros: Les invito a leer y a difundir el opúsculo ¿Conoces la Declaración de las Naciones Unidas sobre los Derechos de los Pueblos Indígenas?, publicado recientemente por Aministía Internacional y el Centro de Derechos Humanos Miguel Agustín Pro Juárez, en la siguiente página web: http://issuu.com/lixxie14/docs/dh_indigenas Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sat Aug 14 02:55:03 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:55:03 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Tlalpujahua Vs. Tlalcosahua] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Tlalpujahua Vs. Tlalcosahua From: vazquezdiaz at aol.com Date: Fri, August 13, 2010 12:20 pm To: nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please help me out in finding the meaning of the above words. Am I right in thinking that Tlalli = tierra and pujahua = bofa? (tierra bofa?) y por lo tanto, Tlalli = tierra and cosahua = amarillenta (Tierra amarilla?) Muy agradecido de antemano. Juan Vazquez -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 14 15:57:26 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:57:26 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Tlalpujahua Vs. Tlalcosahua] In-Reply-To: <7fd973d2505b0033b98ae1115aa9384f.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > > > > > > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: Tlalpujahua Vs. Tlalcosahua > From: vazquezdiaz at aol.com > Date: Fri, August 13, 2010 12:20 pm > To: nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Please help me out in finding the meaning of the above words. > > Am I right in thinking that Tlalli = tierra and pujahua = bofa? (tierra Esto parece ser tla:lpoxa:huac tierra espanjosa > bofa?) > > y por lo tanto, Tlalli = tierra and cosahua = amarillenta (Tierra amarilla?) En este caso, no puedo confirmar su traduccion. Michael > > Muy agradecido de antemano. > > Juan Vazquez > > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President, > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Sun Aug 15 22:17:38 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:17:38 +0200 Subject: Tlalpujahua and Tlalcosahua Message-ID: Tlal-pujahua and Tlal-cosahua. This must be two compositions, made of two nouns. The first noun of the composition is tla:lli. Tla:lli has two meanings: * The earth, ground or land. In nica:n tla:lli, here on this ground, land. * Ore: Ca tla:lli tetepetlatic, it is an ore like tepetate, is said of alum. The second noun of the composition must be a possessive noun, ending on -hua. But nor cosa nor puja are original Nahuatl words, but Spanish words. Cosa= a case, a thing. Puja= an effort, an offer. Mixing both nouns together is in my opinion useless and meaningless. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From vazquezdiaz at aol.com Mon Aug 16 22:00:36 2010 From: vazquezdiaz at aol.com (vazquezdiaz at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:00:36 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Baert Georges: Thank you very much for sharing info about Tlal cosa hua..... This little village has been present even prior to the arrival of the spaniards. I do agree with you on Tlal = land According to Michale, Cozahua = yellowish.... Can you help out in tlalcozahuac .. tlalcozahua .....e?earth that is yellowish'? Juan Vazquez -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl r, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please change the Subject line of your email to match he exact topic being discussed, and delete all but the most important ext from previous messages. oday's Topics: 1. Tlalpujahua and Tlalcosahua (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) -**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--** Message: 1 ate: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:17:38 +0200 rom: ubject: [Nahuat-l] Tlalpujahua and Tlalcosahua o: "Nahuatl List" , essage-ID: ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tlal-pujahua and Tlal-cosahua. This must be two compositions, made of two nouns. The first noun of the composition is tla:lli. Tla:lli has two meanings: * The earth, ground or land. In nica:n tla:lli, here on this ground, land. * Ore: Ca tla:lli tetepetlatic, it is an ore like tepetate, is said of alum. The second noun of the composition must be a possessive noun, ending on hua. But nor cosa nor puja are original Nahuatl words, but Spanish words. Cosa= a case, a thing. Puja= an effort, an offer. Mixing both nouns together is in my opinion useless and meaningless. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- n HTML attachment was scrubbed... RL: http://www.famsi.org/pipermail/nahuatl/attachments/20100816/f7b2407e/attachment-0001.htm -**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--** _______________________________________________ ahuatl mailing list ahuatl at lists.famsi.org ttp://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl nd of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 ************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Aug 17 02:15:09 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:15:09 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <12454_1282006275_o7H0pCe3028000_8CD0BA597595965-1548-31E7@webmail-d066.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Quoting vazquezdiaz at aol.com: > > > Baert Georges: Thank you very much for sharing info about Tlal cosa hua..... > > This little village has been present even prior to the arrival of the > spaniards. > > I do agree with you on Tlal = land > > According to Michale, Cozahua = yellowish.... If you referring to me with the name "Michael," I didn't say anything of the sort. I offered an analysis of the other place name. It's important to keep things straight. Melahuac. Michael > > Can you help out in tlalcozahuac .. tlalcozahua .....e?earth that is > yellowish'? > > Juan Vazquez > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Sent: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > r, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > When replying, please change the Subject line of your email to match > he exact topic being discussed, and delete all but the most important > ext from previous messages. > > oday's Topics: > 1. Tlalpujahua and Tlalcosahua (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) > > -**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--** > Message: 1 > ate: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:17:38 +0200 > rom: > ubject: [Nahuat-l] Tlalpujahua and Tlalcosahua > o: "Nahuatl List" , > essage-ID: > ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Tlal-pujahua and Tlal-cosahua. > This must be two compositions, made of two nouns. > The first noun of the composition is tla:lli. > Tla:lli has two meanings: > * The earth, ground or land. > In nica:n tla:lli, here on this ground, land. > * Ore: > Ca tla:lli tetepetlatic, it is an ore like tepetate, is said of alum. > The second noun of the composition must be a possessive noun, ending on > hua. > But nor cosa nor puja are original Nahuatl words, but Spanish words. > Cosa= a case, a thing. > Puja= an effort, an offer. > Mixing both nouns together is in my opinion useless and meaningless. > Lahun Ik 62 > Baert Georges > Flanders Fields > > -------------- next part -------------- > n HTML attachment was scrubbed... > RL: > http://www.famsi.org/pipermail/nahuatl/attachments/20100816/f7b2407e/attachment-0001.htm > > -**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--** > _______________________________________________ > ahuatl mailing list > ahuatl at lists.famsi.org > ttp://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > nd of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 > ************************************** > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Aug 18 14:59:33 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:59:33 -0500 Subject: Naman tiyolpactoqueh ni Zacatecas Message-ID: Listeros, We are very happy today here in Zacatecas because Delfina de la Cruz de la Cruz, one of our teacher/researchers at IDIEZ is getting tenure for the five-hour Nahuatl class she teaches at the Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas (tenure is normally given bit by bit at Mexican universities). She has also been given another class to teach, so she now has 10 hours. In other words, she is on her way to eventually becoming a full-time professor of Nahuatl at the UAZ. Her tenure exam was conducted entirely in Nahuatl. At first glance this may not seem worth mentioning. However, we need to consider that there are probably more finger on my hands than the total number of indigenous professors at Mexican universities that actually work in their respective language. So again, this a very good day. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Aug 19 12:09:18 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:09:18 -0400 Subject: Aztec remains found Message-ID: http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=40067 MEXICO CITY (REUTERS).- Archeologists have uncovered more than 500-year-old remains of about 50 Aztec children, some of them stuffed into ceramic jars for burial, during excavations for a new subway line in Mexico City. The team from Mexico's National Institute for Anthropology and History also found the foundations of Aztec homes, hundreds of small figurines, and pots and plates dating from 1100 to 1500 AD, on the eve of the Spanish conquest, along the 15-mile (24-km) subway line, due to open in 2012 in southern Mexico City, home to about 20 million people. "In total there are 60 graves, 10 adults and around 50 children of different ages, some two or three years old," archeologist Maria de Jesus Sanchez told Reuters. The graves, found scattered in excavation areas since builders began digging the subway line in September 2008, reflect burial practices of the Aztecs, who often interred their dead relatives underneath their homes. The Aztec empire, with its capital in modern-day Mexico City, held sway over a large part of Mesoamerica for about a century until the arrival of the Spanish. Deceased children were often placed in earthen vessels before burial in the belief that the jars would resemble the mother's womb and keep them warm. Among the objects found was a 20-inch (50-cm) stone figure of a woman discovered under the graves of two children, close to the site of a new subway stations. The subway line links several suburbs that were built on the site of centuries-old Aztec towns. In one suburb, Culhuacan, archeologists found fragments of pots and stone carvings of faces dating back as far as 2000 BC. Mexico has around 40,000 registered archeological sites. While officials today have the authority to halt or alter construction work if an important artifact is discovered, many historical sites have been destroyed during construction and infrastructure projects in the past. -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gova465 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 16:42:51 2010 From: gova465 at yahoo.com (LuGo) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:42:51 -0700 Subject: Piedra del Sol upper images Message-ID: Listeros, I have been asked to provide photos of the uper crust of the Piedra del Sol (“Aztec Calendar”). I understand there were other signs related to the night that are not visible from the front of the Calendar. Any of you knows where can I get copies of those signs? Their meaning? Thank you. Luis G. Diorector Inter Americas Center San Jose, CA.   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Aug 23 13:26:53 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:26:53 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Nahua Workshop #2 Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Nahua Workshop #2 Date: 22 Aug 2010 21:38:58 -0400 From: James Maffie The Latin American Studies Center of the University of Maryland, College Park, is pleased to announce the Second Nahua Workshop, October 29-30, 2010. The Workshop is entitled “Recent Developments in Nahua Studies” and will address issues in both historical and contemporary research. Speakers include: Viviana Díaz Balsera, Richard Conway, Willard Gingerich, James Taggart, Camilla Townsend, and Joanna Sánchez. For further information, contact Jim Maffie at maffiej at umd.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 12:13:02 2010 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:13:02 -0700 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Estimados Listeros,   A long time ago I collected for the village ojo de agua the word Atzontzompantla, which in Tepoztecan folk etymology was said to mean "the place where the water spreads out like hair."  from ? water+head hair+flag-like.  Any other suggestions or is this an acceptable gloss? Thanks,   Tom Grigsby   Actually the old folks waxed a lot more poetic and with romantic license with something like, "Place where the water spreads out like the hair of a woman." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 27 02:09:54 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:09:54 -0400 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <86790.27585.qm@web110001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tom: Interesting name. Maybe someone has a good, quick answer for you. Here's what I can see on the surface of things. tzompa:mitl is Nahuatl for 'coral tree' tzompantli is Nahuatl for 'skull rack' Either could give you "tzompantla", indicating a "place where there is an abundance," /-tlah/, of either coral trees or skull racks. Vowel length is the diff. "tzontzompantla" would appear to indicate a distributive nature for the above. A- in "Atzontzompantla" would turn all this into water. Splash! Now what does this mean? I don't know. Maybe there is or was a spring in the area that, as it came out of the ground, radiated in a way that reminded people, visually, of the flowers of a coral tree? Michael Quoting grigsby tom : > > > Estimados Listeros, >   > A long time ago I collected for the village ojo de agua the word > Atzontzompantla, which in Tepoztecan folk etymology was said to mean > "the place where the water spreads out like hair."  from ? water+head > hair+flag-like.  Any other suggestions or is this an acceptable gloss? > Thanks, >   > Tom Grigsby >   > Actually the old folks waxed a lot more poetic and with romantic > license with something like, "Place where the water spreads out like > the hair of a woman." > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Aug 27 03:44:21 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:44:21 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20100826220954.l84x0n63k0ocs84w@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: One problem is that tzontli doesn't reduplicate with the "n". It would be tzohtzon- or tzo:tzon- or tzotzon-. John On Aug 26, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Tom: > > Interesting name. > > Maybe someone has a good, quick answer for you. Here's what I can see > on the surface of things. > > tzompa:mitl is Nahuatl for 'coral tree' > > tzompantli is Nahuatl for 'skull rack' > > Either could give you "tzompantla", indicating a "place where there is > an abundance," /-tlah/, of either coral trees or skull racks. Vowel > length is the diff. > > "tzontzompantla" would appear to indicate a distributive nature for the above. > > A- in "Atzontzompantla" would turn all this into water. Splash! > > Now what does this mean? I don't know. > > Maybe there is or was a spring in the area that, as it came out of the > ground, radiated in a way that reminded people, visually, of the > flowers of a coral tree? > > Michael > > > Quoting grigsby tom : > >> >> >> Estimados Listeros, >> >> A long time ago I collected for the village ojo de agua the word >> Atzontzompantla, which in Tepoztecan folk etymology was said to mean >> "the place where the water spreads out like hair." from ? water+head >> hair+flag-like. Any other suggestions or is this an acceptable gloss? >> Thanks, >> >> Tom Grigsby >> >> Actually the old folks waxed a lot more poetic and with romantic >> license with something like, "Place where the water spreads out like >> the hair of a woman." >> >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 28 02:27:36 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:27:36 -0400 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps it reduplicated historically orthographically, that is, despite its pronunciation. It's a mystery. It appears no one can tell what it means. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > One problem is that tzontli doesn't reduplicate with the "n". It > would be tzohtzon- or tzo:tzon- or tzotzon-. > John > > On Aug 26, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> Tom: >> >> Interesting name. >> >> Maybe someone has a good, quick answer for you. Here's what I can see >> on the surface of things. >> >> tzompa:mitl is Nahuatl for 'coral tree' >> >> tzompantli is Nahuatl for 'skull rack' >> >> Either could give you "tzompantla", indicating a "place where there is >> an abundance," /-tlah/, of either coral trees or skull racks. Vowel >> length is the diff. >> >> "tzontzompantla" would appear to indicate a distributive nature for >> the above. >> >> A- in "Atzontzompantla" would turn all this into water. Splash! >> >> Now what does this mean? I don't know. >> >> Maybe there is or was a spring in the area that, as it came out of the >> ground, radiated in a way that reminded people, visually, of the >> flowers of a coral tree? >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting grigsby tom : >> >>> >>> >>> Estimados Listeros, >>> >>> A long time ago I collected for the village ojo de agua the word >>> Atzontzompantla, which in Tepoztecan folk etymology was said to mean >>> "the place where the water spreads out like hair." from ? water+head >>> hair+flag-like. Any other suggestions or is this an acceptable gloss? >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Tom Grigsby >>> >>> Actually the old folks waxed a lot more poetic and with romantic >>> license with something like, "Place where the water spreads out like >>> the hair of a woman." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Aug 28 13:53:26 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:53:26 -0500 Subject: atzontzompantla Message-ID: Tom, You're right. This is a hard "altepenym", but let's go through and look at a few things we DO know. 1. The vast majority of altepenyms are composed of a noun stuck onto a locative root. Here there are two possibilities for the locative root. It is either a). -tlan, "town of the...." or b) -tlah, "town of abundant...." Since word final "n"s in multisyllable words are devoiced in Nahuatl, the "n" in -tlan is offen not included in spelling. And we know that "h", especially in the word final position is practically never written. So we really have no way of telling which of the endings is used for Atzontzompantla. But we know it's one of the two. 2. In the vast majority of cases, the embedded noun refers to some geophysical aspect of sacred landscape. In less cases it refers to a plant or an animal that plays a role in nahuatl spirituality. In even less cases it is a verb expressing an action related to a ceremony or myth/legend (which in turn is related to sprituality and sacred landscape). At times it can refer to a sacred instrument (used in a ceremony). And in a very small set of cases, the embedded noun is the name of a deity. So.... when in doubt, assume that your altepenym composed of a noun referring to sacred landscape or a sacred plant or animal, plus the locative root. In other words, if a town is named Tocatlan, from "tocatl", "spider" and -tlan, it doesn't mean that there are a lot of spiders in the area. Rather, it refers to the spider as an animal that plays a role in Mesoamerican spirituality. There has been some debate on nahuat-l about this, and many people don't agree with me, so take that into account. Michael has suggested that we are dealing with tzompamitl, "coral tree" or tzompantli, "scull-rack". Both of these are in line with what I say above. 3. A big problem that I referred to before is the presence of the "n" on the first "tzon" if this is indeed is a reduplication of the second "tzon/tzom". Actually I have seen some attestations of reduplications that include a final consonant on a funny little database called "Alpha", but I don't think this kind of reduplication is explained in any of the classical grammars. I would prefer to think that the "atzon-" and "tzompantli/tzompamitl" are separate elements. So the question is, What is the "atzon-". The first thing we think of is that the "a-" corresponds to "water" and this is a good guess because water appears in a large number of altepenyms, and because of the explanation given by the townspeople. But there is another possibility: ahtzon- might mean "topless" ("ah-", "negative" plus "tzontli", "hair, and by extension, the head, top, end or culmination of something"). This would work morphologically, because when you prefix "ahtzon (the "h" disappears in everyday spelling)" to "tzompamitl/tzompantli" the final "n" wouldn't drop off. So the question is, Is there anything in Mesoamerican stories referring to a coral tree or a skull rack whose top has been cut off or removed? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 28 16:15:54 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:15:54 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: (no subject) Message-ID: ----- Forwarded message from tom_grigsby at yahoo.com ----- Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 04:00:53 -0700 (PDT) From: grigsby tom Reply-To: grigsby tom Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] (no subject) To: Michael McCafferty Dear Michael, Thanks for your input. I agree concerning the mystery.  The village has just about run out of competent Nahuatl speakers and I suspect the term had undergone some changes by the younger generation.  I'd suspect that it was originally something along the lines that Sullivan has suggested: Atzohtzonpantla - water+reduplicated hair+spreads out.  Thanks again, Tom G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria GSM: 359 0899 784 081 --- On Sat, 8/28/10, Michael McCafferty wrote: From: Michael McCafferty Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] (no subject) To: "John Sullivan" Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Date: Saturday, August 28, 2010, 5:27 AM Perhaps it reduplicated historically orthographically, that is, despite its pronunciation. It's a mystery. It appears no one can tell what it means. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > One problem is that tzontli doesn't reduplicate with the "n". It > would be tzohtzon- or tzo:tzon- or tzotzon-. > John > > On Aug 26, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> Tom: >> >> Interesting name. >> >> Maybe someone has a good, quick answer for you. Here's what I can see >> on the surface of things. >> >> tzompa:mitl is Nahuatl for 'coral tree' >> >> tzompantli is Nahuatl for 'skull rack' >> >> Either could give you "tzompantla", indicating a "place where there is >> an abundance," /-tlah/, of either coral trees or skull racks. Vowel >> length is the diff. >> >> "tzontzompantla" would appear to indicate a distributive nature for >> the above. >> >> A- in "Atzontzompantla" would turn all this into water. Splash! >> >> Now what does this mean? I don't know. >> >> Maybe there is or was a spring in the area that, as it came out of the >> ground, radiated in a way that reminded people, visually, of the >> flowers of a coral tree? >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting grigsby tom : >> >>> >>> >>> Estimados Listeros, >>> >>> A long time ago I collected for the village ojo de agua the word >>> Atzontzompantla, which in Tepoztecan folk etymology was said to mean >>> "the place where the water spreads out like hair."  from ? water+head >>> hair+flag-like.  Any other suggestions or is this an acceptable gloss? >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Tom Grigsby >>> >>> Actually the old folks waxed a lot more poetic and with romantic >>> license with something like, "Place where the water spreads out like >>> the hair of a woman." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl ----- End forwarded message ----- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sun Aug 29 02:23:59 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:23:59 -0400 Subject: "Cave, City, and Eagles Nest: Rediscovered Mexican Codex" Message-ID: From: "michael ruggeri" Date: Sat, August 28, 2010 7:31 pm October 7, 6:30 PM The School for Advanced Research Membership Lecture "Cave, City, and Eagles Nest: Rediscovered Mexican Codex" Davíd Carrasco (Harvard University) Membership Lecture, The New Mexico History Museum Auditorium Dr. David Carrasco, historian of religions, presents an illustrated lecture on a recently recovered early 16th century Mexican Codex. Painted by native Mexican artists, the codex narrates their sacred history and unique cosmology. Using a variety of interpretive methods, including infra-red and ultra-violet photography, Dr. Carrasco uncovers the many-layered, complex symbolic and visual work of indigenous artists struggling to depict their world in the early decades of Spanish colonialism. The New Mexico History Museum Auditorium Santa Fe, New Mexico http://sarweb.org/index.php?calendar _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sun Aug 29 22:34:38 2010 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 15:34:38 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl/etc on official notices? Message-ID: In Mexico, are there any areas where direction signs and public notices and suchlike are duplicated in Nahuatl or some other local indigenous language? I have seen many such signs and notices in Wales duplicated in Welsh. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Sun Aug 29 23:34:53 2010 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:34:53 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl/etc on official notices? In-Reply-To: <462230.40195.qm@web86705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There has been a project to do this in Milpa Alta. Have a look at this site: sites.google.com/site/milpaalta/home The contact person is Silverio Jiménez Audiffred (teztla at gmail.com) Fran On Aug 29, 2010, at 6:34 PM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > In Mexico, are there any areas where direction signs and public > notices and suchlike are duplicated in Nahuatl or some other local > indigenous language? I have seen many such signs and notices in > Wales duplicated in Welsh. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ixtlil at earthlink.net Sat Aug 28 21:56:20 2010 From: ixtlil at earthlink.net (Jerry Offner) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:56:20 -0500 Subject: atzontzompantla Message-ID: It is always worthwhile consulting the pictorial sources. They are closer in time to the establishment of many place names. They provide a much fuller context for the language. They open numerous pathways into Nahua intution into their own language, some of which agree with, and others of which are at variance with, current formal linguistic understanding. The most efficient means to do this is the group of programs available at: http://www.sup-infor.com/navigation.htm especially the pictographic dictionaries, prepared by Marc Thouvenot and many collaborators, including members of this list. They cannot be consulted on-line but must be downloaded along with the appropriate programs on the site. This is not a difficult process these days although I have encountered grown-up PhDs who claim to be unable to accomplish this--hopefully their kids or the neighbors can do it for them in a few minutes. Using this resource, you can find in the Matriculas de Huexotzinco from the reasonably nearby Huexotzinco area, three entries for the glyph reading Atzompan (387_637r_02; 387_720v_01; 387_755v_23), and three with the reading atzon (387_550r_20, 387_544v_17, 387_665v_21). The program allows for the easy simultaneous display of all six glyphs. In each case, there is a human head surmounted by hair drawn in the typical Nahua depiction of water, including whorls and shells of one or two types. Not surprisingly, the first two come from a place/administrative division named Atzompan (they don't appear to be glossed, but I have not scoured every page of this section). The gloss on the fourth example appears to be "tacon" (c is c cedilla). The fifth is pedro "tatzon quili" (caution--I have not studied the paleography of this document but others on the list have). The sixth is "juan atzon" (both n's indicated by the characterisitc curving line later used up side down on nike shoes). It is important to keep in mind that the glyphic elements do not always match up with the actual, "on the ground" meanings, as the Nahua enjoyed playing with their own languagwe while writing glyphs, but, overall, these look more obvious and promising than many. I'll let others puzzle out all this from here. With regard to classes of Nahua toponyms, there are a number (e.g. RG of Xonotla y Tetela) where the meaning is explained in contemporaneous Spanish as more or less "place where there are a lot of this or that kind of [named] plant"). Here is an excerpt: Al capitulo diez y seis dizen, y es asi, que este pueblo de Tetela esta poblado entre grandes sierras y rrodeado dellas, y no ay cosa descubierta en el, sino es hazia la parte del norte; y las sierras que le tienen rrodeado, la vna que tiene por la parte del norte se llama Tzotolo en su lengua, por hauer muchos arboles en ella que se llaman asi, que en la lengua espa�ola son vnos arboles a manera de �palma�, saluo que tenian diferente la oja de la palma; y la otra sierra que le �erca por la parte del sur la llaman Nexmotoyo por que ay muchas yerbas deste nonbre en la sierra que se parecen a la yerba de la �sabila� que se cria en Espa�a, y la otra sierra que le �erca por la parte de poniente la laman Tzimayo por que ay en el muchas �rraizes� deste nonbre que ellos comian en aquel tienpo, que son a manera de canaorias de Espa�a. Tzotolo is an important peak/landmark in the region. I don't know if we'll ever know if some or all of the plants are sacred or just characteristic of the places named. The informants on the spot may have been in fear of the then typically violent religious persecution by the Spaniards --about 1580-1582, so they may be presenting an explanation that would not frighten the Spaniards. Or perhaps sometimes a camohtli is just a camohtli. We do find a number of mysterious glyphs from the pictorial documents to the east of the Valley of Mexico composed of a tepetl and some indeterminate, but distinctive plant. Which brings up a final question: do we tend to over-etymologize this language? With so much of the cultural conext lost, is accurate understanding or genuine insight always the result or are a web of false landscapes sometimes created, which are then further elaborated? (This is an intense concern for pictorial sources which are often "over-iconographized"). Yes, we are further from nature by far than the Nahua, but I don't think of a field of springs when I see the word Springfield, nor a big rock for Boulder, Colorado or a bridge at a port with Bridgeport, CT. Nor did the Nahua think of just reed place when they read Tollan as a glyph. There are other examples like "Woman Hollering Creek" in Texas. There are several such places, each with a set of variant legends about the impending assault upon a woman of one or another ethnic group by members of another (always different) ethnic group. In Mesoamerica there is the singing mountain glyph that occurs in a number ! of different languages. Toponyms probably stand up to this test better than most words, but how about words like "dresser" "eraser" "photograph" or "cracker", or more interestingly "deerstalker" (the hat) or pamphlet (not a small pamph), etc. where we are saved from error only because of our extensive and detailed knowledge of English and its relationship to other langages and cultures and their relationship to still other languages and cultures? (e.g. pamph, again). There are doubtless better examples to show how etymologies can follow false paths, particularly with so much information lost. Working with gylphs, it often strikes me that they contain far more meaning than how we translate them or can translate them. Example again: Tollan. Another are the glyphs for Texcoco which are various and appear to refer to an original non-Nahua toponym, as has been discussed at length on this list a long time ago. Certainly John Sullivan's post on place names is informative in this context. Jerry Offner ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sullivan To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: 8/28/2010 08:54:08 AM Subject: [Nahuat-l] atzontzompantla Tom, You're right. This is a hard "altepenym", but let's go through and look at a few things we DO know. 1. The vast majority of altepenyms are composed of a noun stuck onto a locative root. Here there are two possibilities for the locative root. It is either a). -tlan, "town of the...." or b) -tlah, "town of abundant...." Since word final "n"s in multisyllable words are devoiced in Nahuatl, the "n" in -tlan is offen not included in spelling. And we know that "h", especially in the word final position is practically never written. So we really have no way of telling which of the endings is used for Atzontzompantla. But we know it's one of the two. 2. In the vast majority of cases, the embedded noun refers to some geophysical aspect of sacred landscape. In less cases it refers to a plant or an animal that plays a role in nahuatl spirituality. In even less cases it is a verb expressing an action related to a ceremony or myth/legend (which in turn is related to sprituality and sacred landscape). At times it can refer to a sacred instrument (used in a ceremony). And in a very small set of cases, the embedded noun is the name of a deity. So.... when in doubt, assume that your altepenym composed of a noun referring to sacred landscape or a sacred plant or animal, plus the locative root. In other words, if a town is named Tocatlan, from "tocatl", "spider" and -tlan, it doesn't mean that there are a lot of spiders in the area. Rather, it refers to the spider as an animal that plays a role in Mesoamerican spirituality. There has been some debate on nahuat-l about this, and many people don't agree with me, so take that into acc! ount. Michael has suggested that we are dealing with tzompamitl, "coral tree" or tzompantli, "scull-rack". Both of these are in line with what I say above. 3. A big problem that I referred to before is the presence of the "n" on the first "tzon" if this is indeed is a reduplication of the second "tzon/tzom". Actually I have seen some attestations of reduplications that include a final consonant on a funny little database called "Alpha", but I don't think this kind of reduplication is explained in any of the classical grammars. I would prefer to think that the "atzon-" and "tzompantli/tzompamitl" are separate elements. So the question is, What is the "atzon-". The first thing we think of is that the "a-" corresponds to "water" and this is a good guess because water appears in a large number of altepenyms, and because of the explanation given by the townspeople. But there is another possibility: ahtzon- might mean "topless" ("ah-", "negative" plus "tzontli", "hair, and by extension, the head, top, end or culmination of something"). This would work morphologically, because when you prefix "ahtzon (the "h" disappears in everyday s! pelling)" to "tzompamitl/tzompantli" the final "n" wouldn't drop off. So the question is, Is there anything in Mesoamerican stories referring to a coral tree or a skull rack whose top has been cut off or removed? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist�rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Aug 30 06:08:20 2010 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:08:20 -0700 Subject: atzontzompantla In-Reply-To: <380-220108628215620359@earthlink.net> Message-ID: --- On Sat, 28/8/10, Jerry Offner wrote: >  ... It is important to keep in mind that the glyphic elements do not always match up > with the actual, "on the ground" meanings, as the Nahua enjoyed playing with their > own language while writing glyphs,  but, overall, these look more obvious and > promising than many. ...      This has happened in medieval England, where sometimes on a tombstone the buried man's name was written in letters and also as a rebus; and "canting arms" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canting_arms ). One tombstone example was the surname Barton drawn rebus as a bar (= wood or metal beam) and a tun (= barrel), whereas the name's real etymology is Anglo-Saxon "bere-tu_n" = "barley farm". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Mon Aug 30 22:37:59 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 00:37:59 +0200 Subject: Atzontzopantla Message-ID: I have perhaps a more plausible explanation for the word: a-tzon-tzo-pantla. Maybe it could be: ah-tzo-tzoneh-pantlah. * Ah, as a negation. * Tzo-tzoneh: possessive noun, reduplication on tzoneh He who has hair. * Ne-pantlah, locative, in the middle. So the meaning could be, someone who has no hair in the middle of his head. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Aug 31 01:55:33 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:55:33 -0400 Subject: atzontzompantla In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting John Sullivan : > Tom, > You're right. This is a hard "altepenym", but let's go through and > look at a few things we DO know. > 1. The vast majority of altepenyms are composed of a noun stuck onto > a locative root. Here there are two possibilities for the locative > root. It is either a). -tlan, "town of the...." or b) -tlah, "town of > abundant...." Since word final "n"s in multisyllable words are > devoiced in Nahuatl, the "n" in -tlan is offen not included in > spelling. And we know that "h", especially in the word final position > is practically never written. So we really have no way of telling > which of the endings is used for Atzontzompantla. But we know it's > one of the two. Yes, John. This information is true. In fact, it was discussed at some length within the last year or so by this discussion group. It's one of those little quirky aspects of Nahuatl onomastics. I'm glad you mentioned it. -Michael > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Aug 31 18:20:09 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:20:09 -0500 Subject: nahuatl twitters Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, It gives me great pleasure to announce that all of the native speakers at IDIEZ now have twitter accounts and will be writing in Nahuatl daily. The following is a list of the first name of the native speaker (for those of you who have met them) and their twitter account name: Delfina, teicneltzin Ofelia, notonaltipan Sabina, tlahcotona Victoriano, tepoxteco3 Manuel, chahquizmeh Ana Delia, niyolpactoc Catalina, yehyectzin Eduardo, niyolhuitoni Abelardo, piltelontzin John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sun Aug 1 17:01:44 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John Schwaller) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 13:01:44 -0400 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: <46060E45C2C441748BBAE153FFC5B274@baert> Message-ID: The convention which we use on this list, and in general in places where diactitics don't appear properly, is to place a colon (:) after the long vowel: to:ca:itl On 7/31/2010 6:16 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: > > /Special signs./ > > /It is very annoying writing Nahuatl with a modern azerty keyboard./ > > /For example the word tocaitl, has a long --o- and a long --a-./ > > /Therefore a little marking line should be above the two vowels./ > > /Every time one must insert a special sign, working with Words./ > > /In fact this is a very old-fashioned rule if I may say./ > > /In the Dutch language we have a rule to write long vowels twice./ > > /For example: to go = gaan./ > > /Tocaitl should be than writing, toocaaitl, and one should no longer > open special signs./ > > /I don't know if there exist special keyboards with those special signs./ > > /Or.../ > > /Cuix o-ni-n-ix-cuep? / > > /Or... Cuix oo-ni-n-ix-cuep?/ > > /Lahun Ik 62 / > > /Baert Georges/ > > /Flanders// Fields/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -- John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu tel: 315-265-2100 fax 315-265-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Aug 1 20:49:49 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 16:49:49 -0400 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: <46060E45C2C441748BBAE153FFC5B274@baert> Message-ID: It's an interesting topic though it seems as if tradition resistance would rule against its usage (although that hasn't stopped folks from using "k" for tradition "qu,"cu," etc...). In the Algonquian language family long vowels in some languages, including Proto-Algonquian and Southern Unami, are marked with a raised dot following the vowel, while in other languages gemination is the rule, as for example in Sauk and Miami-Illinois. In general, I think geminated orthographic symbols, simply from sight, are easier to remember than single symbols marked in a variety of ways. Best, Michael Quoting lahunik.62 at skynet.be: > Special signs. > > It is very annoying writing Nahuatl with a modern azerty keyboard. > > For example the word tocaitl, has a long -o- and a long -a-. > > Therefore a little marking line should be above the two vowels. > > Every time one must insert a special sign, working with Words. > > In fact this is a very old-fashioned rule if I may say. > > In the Dutch language we have a rule to write long vowels twice. > > For example: to go = gaan. > > Tocaitl should be than writing, toocaaitl, and one should no longer open > special signs. > > I don't know if there exist special keyboards with those special signs. > > Or. > > Cuix o-ni-n-ix-cuep? > > Or. Cuix oo-ni-n-ix-cuep? > > Lahun Ik 62 > > Baert Georges > > Flanders Fields > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Aug 1 20:51:11 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 16:51:11 -0400 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: <4C55A878.5030407@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: This practice is common for other languages that, in publications, generally mark long vowels (and consonants!) with a raised dot. Michael Quoting John Schwaller : > The convention which we use on this list, and in general in places > where diactitics don't appear properly, is to place a colon (:) after > the long vowel: > to:ca:itl > > > On 7/31/2010 6:16 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: >> >> /Special signs./ >> >> /It is very annoying writing Nahuatl with a modern azerty keyboard./ >> >> /For example the word tocaitl, has a long --o- and a long --a-./ >> >> /Therefore a little marking line should be above the two vowels./ >> >> /Every time one must insert a special sign, working with Words./ >> >> /In fact this is a very old-fashioned rule if I may say./ >> >> /In the Dutch language we have a rule to write long vowels twice./ >> >> /For example: to go = gaan./ >> >> /Tocaitl should be than writing, toocaaitl, and one should no longer >> open special signs./ >> >> /I don't know if there exist special keyboards with those special signs./ >> >> /Or.../ >> >> /Cuix o-ni-n-ix-cuep? / >> >> /Or... Cuix oo-ni-n-ix-cuep?/ >> >> /Lahun Ik 62 / >> >> /Baert Georges/ >> >> /Flanders// Fields/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu > > tel: 315-265-2100 > fax 315-265-2496 > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Aug 1 23:30:38 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:30:38 -0500 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: <20100801165111.uon3ibzjeo00skcw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Baert, Using a double vowel to represent vowel length is not a good idea for Nahuatl because vowel elision varies from dialect to dialect. In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for example, repeated short vowels are very common. Here are some examples: 1. niitztoc, "I am (place or state)." 2. quiitta, "he/she sees him/her/it." 3. moohhui, "your road." Here's a double long vowel. a:a:chi:xqui, "he/she waited for their turn at the well after all." John Sent from my iPhone On Aug 1, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > This practice is common for other languages that, in publications, > generally mark long vowels (and consonants!) with a raised dot. > > Michael > > Quoting John Schwaller : > >> The convention which we use on this list, and in general in places >> where diactitics don't appear properly, is to place a colon (:) after >> the long vowel: >> to:ca:itl >> >> >> On 7/31/2010 6:16 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: >>> >>> /Special signs./ >>> >>> /It is very annoying writing Nahuatl with a modern azerty keyboard./ >>> >>> /For example the word tocaitl, has a long --o- and a long --a-./ >>> >>> /Therefore a little marking line should be above the two vowels./ >>> >>> /Every time one must insert a special sign, working with Words./ >>> >>> /In fact this is a very old-fashioned rule if I may say./ >>> >>> /In the Dutch language we have a rule to write long vowels twice./ >>> >>> /For example: to go = gaan./ >>> >>> /Tocaitl should be than writing, toocaaitl, and one should no longer >>> open special signs./ >>> >>> /I don't know if there exist special keyboards with those special signs./ >>> >>> /Or.../ >>> >>> /Cuix o-ni-n-ix-cuep? / >>> >>> /Or... Cuix oo-ni-n-ix-cuep?/ >>> >>> /Lahun Ik 62 / >>> >>> /Baert Georges/ >>> >>> /Flanders// Fields/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> -- >> John F. Schwaller >> President >> SUNY Potsdam >> 44 Pierrepont Ave. >> Potsdam, NY 13676 >> schwallr at potsdam.edu >> >> tel: 315-265-2100 >> fax 315-265-2496 >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Aug 2 09:31:30 2010 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 02:31:30 -0700 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To help typing macron characters, or any Unicode character not on the keyboard, I wrote TYPECASE http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk/3d/typecase_vc.zip It is like Windows's Character Map but its screen display is much bigger and clearer. It handles all possible Unicode 16-bit characters. It was compiled with Visual C++ 2008. --- On Mon, 2/8/10, John Sullivan wrote: Baert, Using a double vowel to represent vowel length is not a good idea for Nahuatl because vowel elision varies from dialect to dialect. In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for example, repeated short vowels are very common. Here are some examples: 1. niitztoc, "I am (place or state)." 2. quiitta, "he/she sees him/her/it." 3. moohhui, "your road." Here's a double long vowel. a:a:chi:xqui, "he/she waited for their turn at the well after all." John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 2 13:27:58 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 08:27:58 -0500 Subject: Special signs Message-ID: Listeros: In Word 2007 (Insertar > S?mbolo) you can click on any character, then on the button ?Teclas?, then ?Nueva tecla de metodo abreviado? (sorry, my computer speaks Castilian), then invent any keystroke combination you like. I use control+shift+a for the letter A with a macron, for example. With a little practice I was able to write Nahuatl almost as easily as Castilian or English (where typing is concerned; the big challenges lie in other areas). Saludos desde Guanajuato, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 16:21:18 2010 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:21:18 -0500 Subject: Special signs Message-ID: Saludos a todos En donde estoy la mayor parte del d?a, yo uso regularmente una laptop del "precl?sico superior", la cual es un equipo Compaq Pentium III con s?lo 96 mb de Ram y con s?lo dos y medio GB de capacidad deDD y como sistema operativo un WinMe . La otra mitad del disco tiene una distribuci?n Linux, espa?ola gallega llamada MiniNO. En este equipo en Windows yo uso un procesador de palabras denominado Jarte el cual es super ligero, se puede instalar en una usb y tiene una muy buena funci?n para insertar caracteres especiales desde mi teclado en espa?ol y un muy poderoso clip manager que sirve como buen complemento de aquella . Jarte viene en una versi?n Free, sin costo alguno y libre de cualquier software pernicioso teniendo las prestaciones de caracteres especiales y clip manager se?aladas . El programa Jarte funciona desde sistemas operativos WinMe. WinXP hasta WindowsVista Jarte tiene una versi?n plus que le da a uno mayores prestaciones a un costo muy barato de 20 dolares El enlace directo a la p?gina de Jarte es ?ste: http://www.jarte.com/ Es muy recomendable este peque?o y buen programa. Pra un idioma ind?gena existe el procesador de palabras Abiword en Linux, Windows y otras plataformas. Abiword tiene versiones en Aymara. Esta es de un desarrollo part?cular http://www.runasimipi.org/blanco.php?file=abiword Y en la version cerada desde el gobierno de Bolivia http://www.educabolivia.bo/descargas/AbiWord.zip Espero sea util esta informaci?n Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Mon Aug 2 15:10:14 2010 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amaya) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 10:10:14 -0500 Subject: Sufijos de Posici=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n?= In-Reply-To: <20100730090454.qofkxopyf48o0oss@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hallo Michael, Hallo Paul I'd like to add some words to the the topic. 1. Ikpan (noikpan). It is related to ic and pa(n). So, the meaning of noikpan is "because of me" or secondly: "around me". The word to express behind is ican/icampa (ican+pa) so you can say noicampa, moicampa iicampa, etc. in order to mean behind me, behind you, behind him, etc. 2. lampa. We say callan to mean something like "outside the house" / "some place near the house"; it is made up of cal (calli=house) and tlan--> lan (tlan: next to, on, etc), plus "pa", that specifies/reinforces the idea of place. So for example, when you say: nicnequi niaz callampa you are meaning "I want to go outdoors". But attention! If you say: nicnequi niaz callan, you are meaning "I want to go to the WC". 3. Caltenoj = caltenoh, related to "caltenco" (nahuatl central), it means "at the edge of the house". Composition: cal (calli) + tentli (lip/edge/border) + co (locative). Today it is used to mean "yard" (patio) or "in front of the house", but you have to remember that in ancient times there were no roads or walls among the houses (it can still be seen in some indian villages), so, at the edge, "border" of the house people used to put stones or trunks on which they sat down to talk. Tomas Amaya -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Michael McCafferty Enviado el: Viernes, 30 de Julio de 2010 08:05 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Sufijos de Posici?n Hard to say, Paul, without more data. Note, however, that in the so-called classical language, certain postpositions have become inalienably associated with certain nouns. That may be the case with your modern dialect. For example, one may just not see -lampa associated with possessive pronouns such as no- even though the structure *nolampa is technically grammatical. Michael Quoting Paul Allen Hudson : > Hi all: > > I'm trying to figure out the difference between the locative suffixes > "in front of" and "behind" in the N?huat of the Cuetz?lan region of > the sierra norte of Puebla. For each locative position, there are two > suffixes: > > -ikpan behind ej. noikpan... behind me > -lampa behind ej. kallampa...behind the house > > -ixpan in front of ej. noixpan...in front of me > -tenoj in front of ej. kaltenoj...in front of the house > > Thus far I haven't been able to figure out when to use one and not > the other, except for sometimes one or the other does not sound as > "correct." Is it a difference between animate and inanimate objects > or possible between things that are stationary and things that aren't? > > > Paul Hudson > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl __________ Informaci?n de ESET Smart Security, versi?n de la base de firmas de virus 5321 (20100728) __________ ESET Smart Security ha comprobado este mensaje. http://www.eset.com __________ Informaci?n de ESET Smart Security, versi?n de la base de firmas de virus 5332 (20100802) __________ ESET Smart Security ha comprobado este mensaje. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Aug 2 23:10:40 2010 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:10:40 -0700 Subject: Special signs In-Reply-To: <245781.33114.qm@web86705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry again. It is http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk/software/typecase_vc.zip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Tue Aug 3 22:46:30 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 00:46:30 +0200 Subject: Special Signs Message-ID: Dear Mister Wright, Thanks for the lesson in Word. After a little searching I have found what you meant. One has to change the function of the fast keys, the F-keys on top of the keyboard. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From paul.hudson at udlap.mx Tue Aug 3 13:51:49 2010 From: paul.hudson at udlap.mx (Paul Allen Hudson) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:51:49 -0500 Subject: Sufijos de Posici=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n?= In-Reply-To: <001b01cb3254$cfe9aa70$6fbcff50$@net.mx> Message-ID: Gracias Tom?s. You have cleared up my confusion considerably. Paul ________________________________________ De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Tomas Amaya [t_amaya at megared.net.mx] Enviado el: lunes, 02 de agosto de 2010 10:10 a.m. Para: 'Michael McCafferty'; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Sufijos de Posici?n Hallo Michael, Hallo Paul I'd like to add some words to the the topic. 1. Ikpan (noikpan). It is related to ic and pa(n). So, the meaning of noikpan is "because of me" or secondly: "around me". The word to express behind is ican/icampa (ican+pa) so you can say noicampa, moicampa iicampa, etc. in order to mean behind me, behind you, behind him, etc. 2. lampa. We say callan to mean something like "outside the house" / "some place near the house"; it is made up of cal (calli=use) and tlan--> lan (tlan: next to, on, etc), plus "pa", that specifies/reinforces the idea of place. So for example, when you say: nicnequi niaz callampa you are meaning "I want to go outdoors". But attention! If you say: nicnequi niaz callan, you are meaning "I want to go to the WC". 3. Caltenoj ?ltenoh, related to "caltenco" (nahuatl central), it means "at the edge of the house". Composition: cal (calli) + tentli (lip/edge/border) + co (locative). Today it is used to mean "yard" (patio) or "in front of the house", but you have to remember that in ancient times there were no roads or walls among the houses (it can still be seen in some indian villages), so, at the edge, "border" of the house people used to put stones or trunks on which they sat down to talk. Tomas Amaya _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 12 16:59:13 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:59:13 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=BFConoces_la_Declaraci=F3n_de_las_Naciones_Unidas_sobr?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?e_los_Derechos_de_los_Pueblos_Ind=EDgenas=3F?= Message-ID: Estimados listeros: Les invito a leer y a difundir el op?sculo ?Conoces la Declaraci?n de las Naciones Unidas sobre los Derechos de los Pueblos Ind?genas?, publicado recientemente por Aminist?a Internacional y el Centro de Derechos Humanos Miguel Agust?n Pro Ju?rez, en la siguiente p?gina web: http://issuu.com/lixxie14/docs/dh_indigenas Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sat Aug 14 02:55:03 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:55:03 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Tlalpujahua Vs. Tlalcosahua] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Tlalpujahua Vs. Tlalcosahua From: vazquezdiaz at aol.com Date: Fri, August 13, 2010 12:20 pm To: nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please help me out in finding the meaning of the above words. Am I right in thinking that Tlalli = tierra and pujahua = bofa? (tierra bofa?) y por lo tanto, Tlalli = tierra and cosahua = amarillenta (Tierra amarilla?) Muy agradecido de antemano. Juan Vazquez -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 14 15:57:26 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:57:26 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Tlalpujahua Vs. Tlalcosahua] In-Reply-To: <7fd973d2505b0033b98ae1115aa9384f.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > > > > > > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: Tlalpujahua Vs. Tlalcosahua > From: vazquezdiaz at aol.com > Date: Fri, August 13, 2010 12:20 pm > To: nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Please help me out in finding the meaning of the above words. > > Am I right in thinking that Tlalli = tierra and pujahua = bofa? (tierra Esto parece ser tla:lpoxa:huac tierra espanjosa > bofa?) > > y por lo tanto, Tlalli = tierra and cosahua = amarillenta (Tierra amarilla?) En este caso, no puedo confirmar su traduccion. Michael > > Muy agradecido de antemano. > > Juan Vazquez > > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President, > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Sun Aug 15 22:17:38 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:17:38 +0200 Subject: Tlalpujahua and Tlalcosahua Message-ID: Tlal-pujahua and Tlal-cosahua. This must be two compositions, made of two nouns. The first noun of the composition is tla:lli. Tla:lli has two meanings: * The earth, ground or land. In nica:n tla:lli, here on this ground, land. * Ore: Ca tla:lli tetepetlatic, it is an ore like tepetate, is said of alum. The second noun of the composition must be a possessive noun, ending on -hua. But nor cosa nor puja are original Nahuatl words, but Spanish words. Cosa= a case, a thing. Puja= an effort, an offer. Mixing both nouns together is in my opinion useless and meaningless. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From vazquezdiaz at aol.com Mon Aug 16 22:00:36 2010 From: vazquezdiaz at aol.com (vazquezdiaz at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:00:36 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Baert Georges: Thank you very much for sharing info about Tlal cosa hua..... This little village has been present even prior to the arrival of the spaniards. I do agree with you on Tlal = land According to Michale, Cozahua = yellowish.... Can you help out in tlalcozahuac .. tlalcozahua .....e?earth that is yellowish'? Juan Vazquez -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl r, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please change the Subject line of your email to match he exact topic being discussed, and delete all but the most important ext from previous messages. oday's Topics: 1. Tlalpujahua and Tlalcosahua (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) -**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--** Message: 1 ate: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:17:38 +0200 rom: ubject: [Nahuat-l] Tlalpujahua and Tlalcosahua o: "Nahuatl List" , essage-ID: ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tlal-pujahua and Tlal-cosahua. This must be two compositions, made of two nouns. The first noun of the composition is tla:lli. Tla:lli has two meanings: * The earth, ground or land. In nica:n tla:lli, here on this ground, land. * Ore: Ca tla:lli tetepetlatic, it is an ore like tepetate, is said of alum. The second noun of the composition must be a possessive noun, ending on hua. But nor cosa nor puja are original Nahuatl words, but Spanish words. Cosa= a case, a thing. Puja= an effort, an offer. Mixing both nouns together is in my opinion useless and meaningless. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- n HTML attachment was scrubbed... RL: http://www.famsi.org/pipermail/nahuatl/attachments/20100816/f7b2407e/attachment-0001.htm -**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--** _______________________________________________ ahuatl mailing list ahuatl at lists.famsi.org ttp://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl nd of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 ************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Aug 17 02:15:09 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:15:09 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <12454_1282006275_o7H0pCe3028000_8CD0BA597595965-1548-31E7@webmail-d066.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Quoting vazquezdiaz at aol.com: > > > Baert Georges: Thank you very much for sharing info about Tlal cosa hua..... > > This little village has been present even prior to the arrival of the > spaniards. > > I do agree with you on Tlal = land > > According to Michale, Cozahua = yellowish.... If you referring to me with the name "Michael," I didn't say anything of the sort. I offered an analysis of the other place name. It's important to keep things straight. Melahuac. Michael > > Can you help out in tlalcozahuac .. tlalcozahua .....e?earth that is > yellowish'? > > Juan Vazquez > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Sent: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > r, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > When replying, please change the Subject line of your email to match > he exact topic being discussed, and delete all but the most important > ext from previous messages. > > oday's Topics: > 1. Tlalpujahua and Tlalcosahua (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) > > -**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--** > Message: 1 > ate: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:17:38 +0200 > rom: > ubject: [Nahuat-l] Tlalpujahua and Tlalcosahua > o: "Nahuatl List" , > essage-ID: > ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Tlal-pujahua and Tlal-cosahua. > This must be two compositions, made of two nouns. > The first noun of the composition is tla:lli. > Tla:lli has two meanings: > * The earth, ground or land. > In nica:n tla:lli, here on this ground, land. > * Ore: > Ca tla:lli tetepetlatic, it is an ore like tepetate, is said of alum. > The second noun of the composition must be a possessive noun, ending on > hua. > But nor cosa nor puja are original Nahuatl words, but Spanish words. > Cosa= a case, a thing. > Puja= an effort, an offer. > Mixing both nouns together is in my opinion useless and meaningless. > Lahun Ik 62 > Baert Georges > Flanders Fields > > -------------- next part -------------- > n HTML attachment was scrubbed... > RL: > http://www.famsi.org/pipermail/nahuatl/attachments/20100816/f7b2407e/attachment-0001.htm > > -**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--** > _______________________________________________ > ahuatl mailing list > ahuatl at lists.famsi.org > ttp://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > nd of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 187, Issue 1 > ************************************** > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Aug 18 14:59:33 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:59:33 -0500 Subject: Naman tiyolpactoqueh ni Zacatecas Message-ID: Listeros, We are very happy today here in Zacatecas because Delfina de la Cruz de la Cruz, one of our teacher/researchers at IDIEZ is getting tenure for the five-hour Nahuatl class she teaches at the Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas (tenure is normally given bit by bit at Mexican universities). She has also been given another class to teach, so she now has 10 hours. In other words, she is on her way to eventually becoming a full-time professor of Nahuatl at the UAZ. Her tenure exam was conducted entirely in Nahuatl. At first glance this may not seem worth mentioning. However, we need to consider that there are probably more finger on my hands than the total number of indigenous professors at Mexican universities that actually work in their respective language. So again, this a very good day. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Aug 19 12:09:18 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:09:18 -0400 Subject: Aztec remains found Message-ID: http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=40067 MEXICO CITY (REUTERS).- Archeologists have uncovered more than 500-year-old remains of about 50 Aztec children, some of them stuffed into ceramic jars for burial, during excavations for a new subway line in Mexico City. The team from Mexico's National Institute for Anthropology and History also found the foundations of Aztec homes, hundreds of small figurines, and pots and plates dating from 1100 to 1500 AD, on the eve of the Spanish conquest, along the 15-mile (24-km) subway line, due to open in 2012 in southern Mexico City, home to about 20 million people. "In total there are 60 graves, 10 adults and around 50 children of different ages, some two or three years old," archeologist Maria de Jesus Sanchez told Reuters. The graves, found scattered in excavation areas since builders began digging the subway line in September 2008, reflect burial practices of the Aztecs, who often interred their dead relatives underneath their homes. The Aztec empire, with its capital in modern-day Mexico City, held sway over a large part of Mesoamerica for about a century until the arrival of the Spanish. Deceased children were often placed in earthen vessels before burial in the belief that the jars would resemble the mother's womb and keep them warm. Among the objects found was a 20-inch (50-cm) stone figure of a woman discovered under the graves of two children, close to the site of a new subway stations. The subway line links several suburbs that were built on the site of centuries-old Aztec towns. In one suburb, Culhuacan, archeologists found fragments of pots and stone carvings of faces dating back as far as 2000 BC. Mexico has around 40,000 registered archeological sites. While officials today have the authority to halt or alter construction work if an important artifact is discovered, many historical sites have been destroyed during construction and infrastructure projects in the past. -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gova465 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 16:42:51 2010 From: gova465 at yahoo.com (LuGo) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:42:51 -0700 Subject: Piedra del Sol upper images Message-ID: Listeros, I have been asked to provide photos of the uper crust of the Piedra del Sol (?Aztec Calendar?). I understand there were other signs related to the night that are not visible from the front of the Calendar. Any of you knows where can I get copies of those signs? Their meaning? Thank you. Luis G. Diorector Inter Americas Center San Jose, CA. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Aug 23 13:26:53 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:26:53 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Nahua Workshop #2 Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Nahua Workshop #2 Date: 22 Aug 2010 21:38:58 -0400 From: James Maffie The Latin American Studies Center of the University of Maryland, College Park, is pleased to announce the Second Nahua Workshop, October 29-30, 2010. The Workshop is entitled ?Recent Developments in Nahua Studies? and will address issues in both historical and contemporary research. Speakers include: Viviana D?az Balsera, Richard Conway, Willard Gingerich, James Taggart, Camilla Townsend, and Joanna S?nchez. For further information, contact Jim Maffie at maffiej at umd.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 12:13:02 2010 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:13:02 -0700 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Estimados Listeros, ? A long time ago I collected for the village ojo de agua the word Atzontzompantla, which in Tepoztecan folk etymology?was said to mean "the place where the water spreads out like hair."? from ? water+head hair+flag-like.? Any other suggestions or is this an acceptable gloss? Thanks, ? Tom Grigsby ? Actually the old folks waxed a lot more poetic and with romantic license with something like, "Place where the water spreads out like the hair of a woman." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 27 02:09:54 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:09:54 -0400 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <86790.27585.qm@web110001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tom: Interesting name. Maybe someone has a good, quick answer for you. Here's what I can see on the surface of things. tzompa:mitl is Nahuatl for 'coral tree' tzompantli is Nahuatl for 'skull rack' Either could give you "tzompantla", indicating a "place where there is an abundance," /-tlah/, of either coral trees or skull racks. Vowel length is the diff. "tzontzompantla" would appear to indicate a distributive nature for the above. A- in "Atzontzompantla" would turn all this into water. Splash! Now what does this mean? I don't know. Maybe there is or was a spring in the area that, as it came out of the ground, radiated in a way that reminded people, visually, of the flowers of a coral tree? Michael Quoting grigsby tom : > > > Estimados Listeros, > ? > A long time ago I collected for the village ojo de agua the word > Atzontzompantla, which in Tepoztecan folk etymology?was said to mean > "the place where the water spreads out like hair."? from ? water+head > hair+flag-like.? Any other suggestions or is this an acceptable gloss? > Thanks, > ? > Tom Grigsby > ? > Actually the old folks waxed a lot more poetic and with romantic > license with something like, "Place where the water spreads out like > the hair of a woman." > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Aug 27 03:44:21 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:44:21 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20100826220954.l84x0n63k0ocs84w@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: One problem is that tzontli doesn't reduplicate with the "n". It would be tzohtzon- or tzo:tzon- or tzotzon-. John On Aug 26, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Tom: > > Interesting name. > > Maybe someone has a good, quick answer for you. Here's what I can see > on the surface of things. > > tzompa:mitl is Nahuatl for 'coral tree' > > tzompantli is Nahuatl for 'skull rack' > > Either could give you "tzompantla", indicating a "place where there is > an abundance," /-tlah/, of either coral trees or skull racks. Vowel > length is the diff. > > "tzontzompantla" would appear to indicate a distributive nature for the above. > > A- in "Atzontzompantla" would turn all this into water. Splash! > > Now what does this mean? I don't know. > > Maybe there is or was a spring in the area that, as it came out of the > ground, radiated in a way that reminded people, visually, of the > flowers of a coral tree? > > Michael > > > Quoting grigsby tom : > >> >> >> Estimados Listeros, >> >> A long time ago I collected for the village ojo de agua the word >> Atzontzompantla, which in Tepoztecan folk etymology was said to mean >> "the place where the water spreads out like hair." from ? water+head >> hair+flag-like. Any other suggestions or is this an acceptable gloss? >> Thanks, >> >> Tom Grigsby >> >> Actually the old folks waxed a lot more poetic and with romantic >> license with something like, "Place where the water spreads out like >> the hair of a woman." >> >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 28 02:27:36 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:27:36 -0400 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps it reduplicated historically orthographically, that is, despite its pronunciation. It's a mystery. It appears no one can tell what it means. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > One problem is that tzontli doesn't reduplicate with the "n". It > would be tzohtzon- or tzo:tzon- or tzotzon-. > John > > On Aug 26, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> Tom: >> >> Interesting name. >> >> Maybe someone has a good, quick answer for you. Here's what I can see >> on the surface of things. >> >> tzompa:mitl is Nahuatl for 'coral tree' >> >> tzompantli is Nahuatl for 'skull rack' >> >> Either could give you "tzompantla", indicating a "place where there is >> an abundance," /-tlah/, of either coral trees or skull racks. Vowel >> length is the diff. >> >> "tzontzompantla" would appear to indicate a distributive nature for >> the above. >> >> A- in "Atzontzompantla" would turn all this into water. Splash! >> >> Now what does this mean? I don't know. >> >> Maybe there is or was a spring in the area that, as it came out of the >> ground, radiated in a way that reminded people, visually, of the >> flowers of a coral tree? >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting grigsby tom : >> >>> >>> >>> Estimados Listeros, >>> >>> A long time ago I collected for the village ojo de agua the word >>> Atzontzompantla, which in Tepoztecan folk etymology was said to mean >>> "the place where the water spreads out like hair." from ? water+head >>> hair+flag-like. Any other suggestions or is this an acceptable gloss? >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Tom Grigsby >>> >>> Actually the old folks waxed a lot more poetic and with romantic >>> license with something like, "Place where the water spreads out like >>> the hair of a woman." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Aug 28 13:53:26 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:53:26 -0500 Subject: atzontzompantla Message-ID: Tom, You're right. This is a hard "altepenym", but let's go through and look at a few things we DO know. 1. The vast majority of altepenyms are composed of a noun stuck onto a locative root. Here there are two possibilities for the locative root. It is either a). -tlan, "town of the...." or b) -tlah, "town of abundant...." Since word final "n"s in multisyllable words are devoiced in Nahuatl, the "n" in -tlan is offen not included in spelling. And we know that "h", especially in the word final position is practically never written. So we really have no way of telling which of the endings is used for Atzontzompantla. But we know it's one of the two. 2. In the vast majority of cases, the embedded noun refers to some geophysical aspect of sacred landscape. In less cases it refers to a plant or an animal that plays a role in nahuatl spirituality. In even less cases it is a verb expressing an action related to a ceremony or myth/legend (which in turn is related to sprituality and sacred landscape). At times it can refer to a sacred instrument (used in a ceremony). And in a very small set of cases, the embedded noun is the name of a deity. So.... when in doubt, assume that your altepenym composed of a noun referring to sacred landscape or a sacred plant or animal, plus the locative root. In other words, if a town is named Tocatlan, from "tocatl", "spider" and -tlan, it doesn't mean that there are a lot of spiders in the area. Rather, it refers to the spider as an animal that plays a role in Mesoamerican spirituality. There has been some debate on nahuat-l about this, and many people don't agree with me, so take that into account. Michael has suggested that we are dealing with tzompamitl, "coral tree" or tzompantli, "scull-rack". Both of these are in line with what I say above. 3. A big problem that I referred to before is the presence of the "n" on the first "tzon" if this is indeed is a reduplication of the second "tzon/tzom". Actually I have seen some attestations of reduplications that include a final consonant on a funny little database called "Alpha", but I don't think this kind of reduplication is explained in any of the classical grammars. I would prefer to think that the "atzon-" and "tzompantli/tzompamitl" are separate elements. So the question is, What is the "atzon-". The first thing we think of is that the "a-" corresponds to "water" and this is a good guess because water appears in a large number of altepenyms, and because of the explanation given by the townspeople. But there is another possibility: ahtzon- might mean "topless" ("ah-", "negative" plus "tzontli", "hair, and by extension, the head, top, end or culmination of something"). This would work morphologically, because when you prefix "ahtzon (the "h" disappears in everyday spelling)" to "tzompamitl/tzompantli" the final "n" wouldn't drop off. So the question is, Is there anything in Mesoamerican stories referring to a coral tree or a skull rack whose top has been cut off or removed? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 28 16:15:54 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:15:54 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: (no subject) Message-ID: ----- Forwarded message from tom_grigsby at yahoo.com ----- Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 04:00:53 -0700 (PDT) From: grigsby tom Reply-To: grigsby tom Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] (no subject) To: Michael McCafferty Dear Michael, Thanks for your input. I agree concerning the mystery.? The village has just about run out of competent Nahuatl speakers and I suspect the term had undergone some changes by the younger generation.? I'd suspect that it was originally something along the lines that Sullivan has suggested: Atzohtzonpantla - water+reduplicated hair+spreads out.? Thanks again, Tom G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria GSM: 359 0899 784 081 --- On Sat, 8/28/10, Michael McCafferty wrote: From: Michael McCafferty Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] (no subject) To: "John Sullivan" Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Date: Saturday, August 28, 2010, 5:27 AM Perhaps it reduplicated historically orthographically, that is, despite its pronunciation. It's a mystery. It appears no one can tell what it means. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > One problem is that tzontli doesn't reduplicate with the "n". It > would be tzohtzon- or tzo:tzon- or tzotzon-. > John > > On Aug 26, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> Tom: >> >> Interesting name. >> >> Maybe someone has a good, quick answer for you. Here's what I can see >> on the surface of things. >> >> tzompa:mitl is Nahuatl for 'coral tree' >> >> tzompantli is Nahuatl for 'skull rack' >> >> Either could give you "tzompantla", indicating a "place where there is >> an abundance," /-tlah/, of either coral trees or skull racks. Vowel >> length is the diff. >> >> "tzontzompantla" would appear to indicate a distributive nature for >> the above. >> >> A- in "Atzontzompantla" would turn all this into water. Splash! >> >> Now what does this mean? I don't know. >> >> Maybe there is or was a spring in the area that, as it came out of the >> ground, radiated in a way that reminded people, visually, of the >> flowers of a coral tree? >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting grigsby tom : >> >>> >>> >>> Estimados Listeros, >>> >>> A long time ago I collected for the village ojo de agua the word >>> Atzontzompantla, which in Tepoztecan folk etymology was said to mean >>> "the place where the water spreads out like hair."? from ? water+head >>> hair+flag-like.? Any other suggestions or is this an acceptable gloss? >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Tom Grigsby >>> >>> Actually the old folks waxed a lot more poetic and with romantic >>> license with something like, "Place where the water spreads out like >>> the hair of a woman." >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl ----- End forwarded message ----- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Sun Aug 29 02:23:59 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:23:59 -0400 Subject: "Cave, City, and Eagles Nest: Rediscovered Mexican Codex" Message-ID: From: "michael ruggeri" Date: Sat, August 28, 2010 7:31 pm October 7, 6:30 PM The School for Advanced Research Membership Lecture "Cave, City, and Eagles Nest: Rediscovered Mexican Codex" Dav?d Carrasco (Harvard University) Membership Lecture, The New Mexico History Museum Auditorium Dr. David Carrasco, historian of religions, presents an illustrated lecture on a recently recovered early 16th century Mexican Codex. Painted by native Mexican artists, the codex narrates their sacred history and unique cosmology. Using a variety of interpretive methods, including infra-red and ultra-violet photography, Dr. Carrasco uncovers the many-layered, complex symbolic and visual work of indigenous artists struggling to depict their world in the early decades of Spanish colonialism. The New Mexico History Museum Auditorium Santa Fe, New Mexico http://sarweb.org/index.php?calendar _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Sun Aug 29 22:34:38 2010 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 15:34:38 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl/etc on official notices? Message-ID: In Mexico, are there any areas where direction signs and public notices and suchlike are duplicated in Nahuatl or some other local indigenous language? I have seen many such signs and notices in Wales duplicated in Welsh. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Sun Aug 29 23:34:53 2010 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:34:53 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl/etc on official notices? In-Reply-To: <462230.40195.qm@web86705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There has been a project to do this in Milpa Alta. Have a look at this site: sites.google.com/site/milpaalta/home The contact person is Silverio Jim?nez Audiffred (teztla at gmail.com) Fran On Aug 29, 2010, at 6:34 PM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > In Mexico, are there any areas where direction signs and public > notices and suchlike are duplicated in Nahuatl or some other local > indigenous language? I have seen many such signs and notices in > Wales duplicated in Welsh. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ixtlil at earthlink.net Sat Aug 28 21:56:20 2010 From: ixtlil at earthlink.net (Jerry Offner) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:56:20 -0500 Subject: atzontzompantla Message-ID: It is always worthwhile consulting the pictorial sources. They are closer in time to the establishment of many place names. They provide a much fuller context for the language. They open numerous pathways into Nahua intution into their own language, some of which agree with, and others of which are at variance with, current formal linguistic understanding. The most efficient means to do this is the group of programs available at: http://www.sup-infor.com/navigation.htm especially the pictographic dictionaries, prepared by Marc Thouvenot and many collaborators, including members of this list. They cannot be consulted on-line but must be downloaded along with the appropriate programs on the site. This is not a difficult process these days although I have encountered grown-up PhDs who claim to be unable to accomplish this--hopefully their kids or the neighbors can do it for them in a few minutes. Using this resource, you can find in the Matriculas de Huexotzinco from the reasonably nearby Huexotzinco area, three entries for the glyph reading Atzompan (387_637r_02; 387_720v_01; 387_755v_23), and three with the reading atzon (387_550r_20, 387_544v_17, 387_665v_21). The program allows for the easy simultaneous display of all six glyphs. In each case, there is a human head surmounted by hair drawn in the typical Nahua depiction of water, including whorls and shells of one or two types. Not surprisingly, the first two come from a place/administrative division named Atzompan (they don't appear to be glossed, but I have not scoured every page of this section). The gloss on the fourth example appears to be "tacon" (c is c cedilla). The fifth is pedro "tatzon quili" (caution--I have not studied the paleography of this document but others on the list have). The sixth is "juan atzon" (both n's indicated by the characterisitc curving line later used up side down on nike shoes). It is important to keep in mind that the glyphic elements do not always match up with the actual, "on the ground" meanings, as the Nahua enjoyed playing with their own languagwe while writing glyphs, but, overall, these look more obvious and promising than many. I'll let others puzzle out all this from here. With regard to classes of Nahua toponyms, there are a number (e.g. RG of Xonotla y Tetela) where the meaning is explained in contemporaneous Spanish as more or less "place where there are a lot of this or that kind of [named] plant"). Here is an excerpt: Al capitulo diez y seis dizen, y es asi, que este pueblo de Tetela esta poblado entre grandes sierras y rrodeado dellas, y no ay cosa descubierta en el, sino es hazia la parte del norte; y las sierras que le tienen rrodeado, la vna que tiene por la parte del norte se llama Tzotolo en su lengua, por hauer muchos arboles en ella que se llaman asi, que en la lengua espa?ola son vnos arboles a manera de ?palma?, saluo que tenian diferente la oja de la palma; y la otra sierra que le ?erca por la parte del sur la llaman Nexmotoyo por que ay muchas yerbas deste nonbre en la sierra que se parecen a la yerba de la ?sabila? que se cria en Espa?a, y la otra sierra que le ?erca por la parte de poniente la laman Tzimayo por que ay en el muchas ?rraizes? deste nonbre que ellos comian en aquel tienpo, que son a manera de canaorias de Espa?a. Tzotolo is an important peak/landmark in the region. I don't know if we'll ever know if some or all of the plants are sacred or just characteristic of the places named. The informants on the spot may have been in fear of the then typically violent religious persecution by the Spaniards --about 1580-1582, so they may be presenting an explanation that would not frighten the Spaniards. Or perhaps sometimes a camohtli is just a camohtli. We do find a number of mysterious glyphs from the pictorial documents to the east of the Valley of Mexico composed of a tepetl and some indeterminate, but distinctive plant. Which brings up a final question: do we tend to over-etymologize this language? With so much of the cultural conext lost, is accurate understanding or genuine insight always the result or are a web of false landscapes sometimes created, which are then further elaborated? (This is an intense concern for pictorial sources which are often "over-iconographized"). Yes, we are further from nature by far than the Nahua, but I don't think of a field of springs when I see the word Springfield, nor a big rock for Boulder, Colorado or a bridge at a port with Bridgeport, CT. Nor did the Nahua think of just reed place when they read Tollan as a glyph. There are other examples like "Woman Hollering Creek" in Texas. There are several such places, each with a set of variant legends about the impending assault upon a woman of one or another ethnic group by members of another (always different) ethnic group. In Mesoamerica there is the singing mountain glyph that occurs in a number ! of different languages. Toponyms probably stand up to this test better than most words, but how about words like "dresser" "eraser" "photograph" or "cracker", or more interestingly "deerstalker" (the hat) or pamphlet (not a small pamph), etc. where we are saved from error only because of our extensive and detailed knowledge of English and its relationship to other langages and cultures and their relationship to still other languages and cultures? (e.g. pamph, again). There are doubtless better examples to show how etymologies can follow false paths, particularly with so much information lost. Working with gylphs, it often strikes me that they contain far more meaning than how we translate them or can translate them. Example again: Tollan. Another are the glyphs for Texcoco which are various and appear to refer to an original non-Nahua toponym, as has been discussed at length on this list a long time ago. Certainly John Sullivan's post on place names is informative in this context. Jerry Offner ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sullivan To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: 8/28/2010 08:54:08 AM Subject: [Nahuat-l] atzontzompantla Tom, You're right. This is a hard "altepenym", but let's go through and look at a few things we DO know. 1. The vast majority of altepenyms are composed of a noun stuck onto a locative root. Here there are two possibilities for the locative root. It is either a). -tlan, "town of the...." or b) -tlah, "town of abundant...." Since word final "n"s in multisyllable words are devoiced in Nahuatl, the "n" in -tlan is offen not included in spelling. And we know that "h", especially in the word final position is practically never written. So we really have no way of telling which of the endings is used for Atzontzompantla. But we know it's one of the two. 2. In the vast majority of cases, the embedded noun refers to some geophysical aspect of sacred landscape. In less cases it refers to a plant or an animal that plays a role in nahuatl spirituality. In even less cases it is a verb expressing an action related to a ceremony or myth/legend (which in turn is related to sprituality and sacred landscape). At times it can refer to a sacred instrument (used in a ceremony). And in a very small set of cases, the embedded noun is the name of a deity. So.... when in doubt, assume that your altepenym composed of a noun referring to sacred landscape or a sacred plant or animal, plus the locative root. In other words, if a town is named Tocatlan, from "tocatl", "spider" and -tlan, it doesn't mean that there are a lot of spiders in the area. Rather, it refers to the spider as an animal that plays a role in Mesoamerican spirituality. There has been some debate on nahuat-l about this, and many people don't agree with me, so take that into acc! ount. Michael has suggested that we are dealing with tzompamitl, "coral tree" or tzompantli, "scull-rack". Both of these are in line with what I say above. 3. A big problem that I referred to before is the presence of the "n" on the first "tzon" if this is indeed is a reduplication of the second "tzon/tzom". Actually I have seen some attestations of reduplications that include a final consonant on a funny little database called "Alpha", but I don't think this kind of reduplication is explained in any of the classical grammars. I would prefer to think that the "atzon-" and "tzompantli/tzompamitl" are separate elements. So the question is, What is the "atzon-". The first thing we think of is that the "a-" corresponds to "water" and this is a good guess because water appears in a large number of altepenyms, and because of the explanation given by the townspeople. But there is another possibility: ahtzon- might mean "topless" ("ah-", "negative" plus "tzontli", "hair, and by extension, the head, top, end or culmination of something"). This would work morphologically, because when you prefix "ahtzon (the "h" disappears in everyday s! pelling)" to "tzompamitl/tzompantli" the final "n" wouldn't drop off. So the question is, Is there anything in Mesoamerican stories referring to a coral tree or a skull rack whose top has been cut off or removed? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Aug 30 06:08:20 2010 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:08:20 -0700 Subject: atzontzompantla In-Reply-To: <380-220108628215620359@earthlink.net> Message-ID: --- On Sat, 28/8/10, Jerry Offner wrote: >? ... It is important to keep in mind that the glyphic elements do not always match up > with the actual, "on the ground" meanings, as the Nahua enjoyed playing with their > own language while writing glyphs,? but, overall, these look more obvious and > promising than many. ... ???? This has happened in medieval England, where sometimes on a tombstone the buried man's name was written in letters and also as a rebus; and "canting arms" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canting_arms ). One tombstone example was the surname Barton drawn rebus as a bar (= wood or metal beam) and a tun (= barrel), whereas the name's real etymology is Anglo-Saxon "bere-tu_n" = "barley farm". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Mon Aug 30 22:37:59 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 00:37:59 +0200 Subject: Atzontzopantla Message-ID: I have perhaps a more plausible explanation for the word: a-tzon-tzo-pantla. Maybe it could be: ah-tzo-tzoneh-pantlah. * Ah, as a negation. * Tzo-tzoneh: possessive noun, reduplication on tzoneh He who has hair. * Ne-pantlah, locative, in the middle. So the meaning could be, someone who has no hair in the middle of his head. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Aug 31 01:55:33 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:55:33 -0400 Subject: atzontzompantla In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting John Sullivan : > Tom, > You're right. This is a hard "altepenym", but let's go through and > look at a few things we DO know. > 1. The vast majority of altepenyms are composed of a noun stuck onto > a locative root. Here there are two possibilities for the locative > root. It is either a). -tlan, "town of the...." or b) -tlah, "town of > abundant...." Since word final "n"s in multisyllable words are > devoiced in Nahuatl, the "n" in -tlan is offen not included in > spelling. And we know that "h", especially in the word final position > is practically never written. So we really have no way of telling > which of the endings is used for Atzontzompantla. But we know it's > one of the two. Yes, John. This information is true. In fact, it was discussed at some length within the last year or so by this discussion group. It's one of those little quirky aspects of Nahuatl onomastics. I'm glad you mentioned it. -Michael > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Aug 31 18:20:09 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:20:09 -0500 Subject: nahuatl twitters Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, It gives me great pleasure to announce that all of the native speakers at IDIEZ now have twitter accounts and will be writing in Nahuatl daily. The following is a list of the first name of the native speaker (for those of you who have met them) and their twitter account name: Delfina, teicneltzin Ofelia, notonaltipan Sabina, tlahcotona Victoriano, tepoxteco3 Manuel, chahquizmeh Ana Delia, niyolpactoc Catalina, yehyectzin Eduardo, niyolhuitoni Abelardo, piltelontzin John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl