From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jan 1 19:01:33 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 14:01:33 -0500 Subject: Happy New Year... Message-ID: ----- Forwarded message from Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com ----- Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 11:05:46 +0000 From: Ian Mursell Reply-To: Ian Mursell Subject: [Nahuat-l] Happy New Year... To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org ³I'm Japanese. Please teach me Nahuatl. How to write in Nahuatl is not understood and it embarrasses it though I want to write the sentence of "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!". I¹m keen to know.. Please correct the sentence that I wrote. The original text : Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! In Spanish : ¡Feliz Navidad y próspero año nuevo! My sentence : Kuali Tlakatilisiluitl iuan tlasempaktiani yankuik xiuitl! Hello, Ian, and happy new year! This request is interesting as it brings up a couple of questions. As I'm not a native speaker of Nahuatl, I can't say for sure what is possible in today's language for such a "command". Maybe one of the list members who is currently working with native speakers could comment. However, my "instinctual" feeling about such a wish for "classical" Nahuatl would be that, unlike a wish in English or Spanish, one would use a verb in the optative mood along with an introductory particle in the form of /ma:/ or /tla:/. For "Merry Christmas!" I would go with "Ma: xiccemilhuiti cualli tla:catiliztli" employing the verb cemilhuitia 'to spend a whole day (ilhuitl)'. Regarding "próspero año nuevo!" my question would be of a semantic nature. Can a *year* be *prosperous*? Or can only people be prosperous? I would go with the latter, again using a verb in the optative mood: "Ma: xonmocuilto:no i:pan yancuic xihuitl!" In all: "Ma: xiccemilhuiti cualli tla:catiliztli i:huan ma xonmocuilto:no i:pan yancuic xihuitl!" Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Sat Jan 2 17:40:23 2010 From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 17:40:23 +0000 Subject: Happy New Year... In-Reply-To: <20100101140133.1bohq4m0owkos4g8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Cheers, Michael, thank you so much for taking the trouble to help on this. I know it's a bit of a silly question - it goes without saying that I'm not expecting Christmas to be 'translated' into Náhuatl! - but it was a genuine enquiry from a student, and, I think, in its way intriguing... Best, Ian > ----- Forwarded message from Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com ----- > Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 11:05:46 +0000 > From: Ian Mursell > Reply-To: Ian Mursell > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Happy New Year... > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > ³I'm Japanese. Please teach me Nahuatl. > How to write in Nahuatl is not understood and it embarrasses it though I > want to write the sentence of > "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!". I¹m keen to know.. Please correct > the sentence that I wrote. > > > The original text : Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! > In Spanish : ¡Feliz Navidad y próspero año nuevo! > > My sentence : Kuali Tlakatilisiluitl iuan tlasempaktiani yankuik > xiuitl! > > > Hello, Ian, and happy new year! > > This request is interesting as it brings up a couple of questions. > > As I'm not a native speaker of Nahuatl, I can't say for sure what is > possible in today's language for such a "command". Maybe one of the > list members who is currently working with native speakers could > comment. > > However, my "instinctual" feeling about such a wish for "classical" > Nahuatl would be that, unlike a wish in English or Spanish, one would > use a verb in the optative mood along with an introductory particle in > the form of /ma:/ or /tla:/. > > For "Merry Christmas!" I would go with "Ma: xiccemilhuiti cualli > tla:catiliztli" > > employing the verb cemilhuitia 'to spend a whole day (ilhuitl)'. > > > Regarding "próspero año nuevo!" my question would be of a semantic > nature. Can a *year* be *prosperous*? Or can only people be prosperous? > I would go with the latter, again using a verb in the optative mood: > > "Ma: xonmocuilto:no i:pan yancuic xihuitl!" > > > In all: > > "Ma: xiccemilhuiti cualli tla:catiliztli i:huan ma xonmocuilto:no i:pan > yancuic xihuitl!" > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From robc at csufresno.edu Mon Jan 4 18:46:00 2010 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert Comegys) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:46:00 -0800 Subject: Alphabetic Nahuatl script, review article? resources? Message-ID: Hi, I am interested in the name of the type(s) of alphabetic scripts used by the indigenous in the XVI and XVII centuries. I gather that they are usually Humanist hand. Is there a good review article on early Spanish (Mexican) colonial paleography? Does someone have a paleography bibliography from a class? I have Barber and Beradan The Emperor's Mirror. I am trying to identify a manuscript based mostly on paleography. Has anyone done this before? I am grateful for any practical help the listers can give. Best regards, John Comegys _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jan 4 19:43:23 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 13:43:23 -0600 Subject: Alphabetic Nahuatl script, review article? resources? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John: A few years ago I filled in for a colleague who was in sabbatical, and taught a paleography class in the History Department at the University of Guanajuato. I'm pasting the bibliography I put together at the end of this message. It has two parts, one on paleography per se and another on the Castilian language. Call numbers are from the University of Guanajuato library system. I hope this helps. All the best, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Robert Comegys Enviado el: lunes, 04 de enero de 2010 12:46 p.m. Para: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Alphabetic Nahuatl script, review article? resources? Hi, I am interested in the name of the type(s) of alphabetic scripts used by the indigenous in the XVI and XVII centuries. I gather that they are usually Humanist hand. Is there a good review article on early Spanish (Mexican) colonial paleography? Does someone have a paleography bibliography from a class? I have Barber and Beradan The Emperor's Mirror. I am trying to identify a manuscript based mostly on paleography. Has anyone done this before? I am grateful for any practical help the listers can give. Best regards, John Comegys _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl **************************************************************** 1. Manuales de paleografía y estudios relacionados Bribiesca Sumano, María Elena, Antología de paleografía y diplomática, 2 vols., Toluca, Universidad Autónoma del Estado de México, 1991. Bribiesca Sumano, María Elena, Introducción a la paleografía, 3a. reimpresión, México, Archivo General de la Nación, 1981. G515 417.7 ARC Colomera y Rodríguez, Venancio, Paleografía castellana, o sea, colección de documentos auténticos para comprender con perfección todas las formas de letras manuscritas que se usaron en los siglos XII, XIII, XIV, XV y XVI, alfabetos mayúsculas y minúsculas, cifras, signos, abreviaturas, tabla numérica y un vocabulario del castellano antiguo, con la traducción correspondiente en las páginas inmediatas, Valladolid, Imprenta de P. de la Llana, 1862. Dahl, Sven, Historia del libro, Alberto Adell, traductor, México, Consejo Nacional para la Cultura y las Artes/Alianza Editorial, 1991. "Tabla de equivalencias de las monedas y medidas mencionadas en los documentos", en Descripciones económicas generales de Nueva España, 1784-1817, Enrique Florescano e Isabel Gil, compiladores, Seminario de Historia Económica, Departamento de Investigaciones Históricas, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 1973. García Martínez, Bernardo, “Paleografía y documentos coloniales, estudiando historia”, en Arqueología Mexicana (Editorial Raíces/Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia), vol. 12, no. 70, nov.-dic. 2004, pp. 50-53. Hidalgo Brinquis, María Carmen, “Estudio de las filigranas”, en Pintura del gobernador, alcaldes y regidores de México, “Códice Osuna”, Vicenta Cortés Alonso, editora, Madrid, Ministerio de Educación y Ciencia, Dirección General de Archivos y Bibliotecas, 1976, anexo 1. Millares Carlo, Agustín; Mantecón, José Ignacio, Álbum de paleografía hispanoamericana de los siglos XVI y XVII, 3 vols., México, Editorial Fournier/Instituto Panamericano de Geografía e Historia, 1955. G405 417.7 MIL Millares Carlo, Agustín; Ruiz Asencio, José Manuel, Tratado de paleografía española, Madrid, Espasa Calpe, 1983. D300 G401 461.7 MIL Normas para la transcripción de documentos históricos, México, Archivo General de la Nación, 1979. D300 025.02 ARC Normas para la transcripción de documentos y corrección de originales para su edición, México, Archivo General de la Nación, 1981. Núñez Contreras, Luis, Manual de paleografía, fundamentos e historia de la escritura latina hasta el siglo VIII, Madrid, Ediciones Cátedra, 1994. G405 417.7 NUÑ Pérez Fernández del Castillo, Bernardo, Historia de la escribanía en la Nueva España y del notoriado en México, 2a. ed., México, Colegio de Notarios del Distrito Federal/Editorial Porrúa, 1988. D300 G405 347.72016 PER 1988 Pezzat Arzave, Delia, Elementos de paleografía novohispana, México, Facultad de Filosofía y Letras, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1990. G405 417.7 PEZ Ramírez Montes, Mina, Manuscritos novohispanos, ejercicios de lectura, México, Instituto de Investigaciones Estéticas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1990. G405 091.98 RAM Sánchez Bueno de Bonfil, María Cristina, El papel del papel en la Nueva España, México, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 1993. Silva Prada, Natalia, Manual de paleografía y diplomática hispanoamericana, siglos XVI, XVII y XVIII, México, Unidad Iztapalapa, Universidad Autónoma Metropolitana, 2001. G405 417.7 SIL "Tabla de equivalencias de las monedas y medidas mencionadas en los documentos", en Descripciones económicas generales de Nueva España, 1784-1817, Enrique Florescano e Isabel Gil, compiladores, Seminario de Historia Económica, Departamento de Investigaciones Históricas, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 1973, pp. 265-270. Villasana Haggard, J.; McLean, Malcolm Dallas, Handbook for translators of Spanish historical documents, Austin, Archives Collections, The University of Texas, 1941. 2. Lengua castellana Alarcos Llorach, Emilio, Gramática de la lengua española, 1a. reimpresión de la 1a. ed., Madrid, Real Academia Española/Editorial Espasa Calpe, 1999. Arias Álvarez, Beatriz, El español de México en el siglo XVI (estudio filológico de quince documentos), México, Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1997. Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebastián, “Tesoro de la lengua castellana, o española”, facsímil de la ed. de 1611, en Lexicografía española peninsular, diccionarios clásicos, ed. digital, Pedro Álvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebastián, Tesoro de la lengua castellana o española, Madrid/México, Ediciones Turner/Ediciones Turnermex, 1984. Company Company, Concepción, Documentos lingüísticos de la Nueva España, Altiplano Central, México, Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1994. Corominas, Joan; Pascual, José A., Diccionario crítico etimológico castellano e hispánico, 1a. reimpresión de la 1a. ed., 6 vols., Madrid, Editorial Gredos, 1983-1985. “Diccionario de la lengua castellana, en que se explica el verdadero sentido de las voces, su naturaleza y calidad, con las phrases o modos de hablar, los proverbios o refranes, y otras cosas convenientes al uso de la lengua”, facsímil de la ed. de 1726-1739, 6 vols., en Lexicografía española peninsular, diccionarios clásicos, ed. digital, Pedro Álvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Diccionario de la lengua española, reimpresión de la 21a. ed., 2 vols., Madrid, Real Academia Española/Editorial Espasa Calpe, 1999. Domínguez, Ramón Joaquín, “Diccionario nacional, o gran diccionario clásico de la lengua española, el más completo de los léxicos publicados hasta el día”, facsímil de la ed. de 1847, en Lexicografía española peninsular, diccionarios clásicos, ed. digital, Pedro Álvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. García-Pelayo y Gross, Ramón; García-Pelayo y Gross, Fernando; Durand, Micheline, Larousse diccionario práctico conjugación, 43a. reimpresión de la 1a. ed., Barcelona/México/París/Buenos Aires, Larousse 1996. Guzmán Betancourt, Ignacio, “La lengua, ¿compañera del imperio? Destino de un ‘presagio’ nebrisense en la Nueva España”, en Memoria del Coloquio La Obra de Antonio de Nebrija y su Recepción en la Nueva España, quince estudios nebrisenses (1492-1992), Ignacio Guzmán Betancourt y Eréndira Nansen Díaz, editores, México, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 1997, pp. 23-37. Lope Blanch, Juan M., Investigaciones sobre dialectología mexicana, 2a. ed., México, Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1990. G412 G425 467.972 LOP Martínez Peñaloza, María Teresa, Vocabulario de términos en documentos históricos, 2a. reimpresión de la 1a. ed., México, Archivo General de la Nación, 1984. Martínez Rivera, Javier, “La influencia de las lenguas indígenas en el español de México en el siglo XVI a través de un documento”, en Humanidades, Anuario del Instituto de Investigaciones Humanísticas (Universidad Iberoamericana), año 1976, no. 4, 1976, pp. 47-57. Nebrija, Elio Antonio de, “Vocabulario español-latino”, facsímil de la ed. de 1495, en Lexicografía española peninsular, diccionarios clásicos, ed. digital, Pedro Álvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. “Nuevo diccionario de la lengua castellana que comprende la última edición íntegra, muy rectificada y mejorada, del publicado por la Academia Española, y unas veinte y seis mil voces, acepciones, frases y locuciones, entre ellas muchas americanas, añadidas por don Vicente Salvá”, facsímil de la ed. de 1847, en Lexicografía española peninsular, diccionarios clásicos, ed. digital, Pedro Álvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Ortografía de la lengua española, Madrid, Real Academia Española/Editorial Espasa Calpe, 1999. Santamaría, Francisco J., Diccionario de mejicanismos, razonado; comprobado con citas de autoridades; comparado con el de americanismos y con los vocabularios provinciales de los más distinguidos diccionaristas hispanamericanos, 15a. ed., México, Editorial Porrúa, 1992. D300 G405 G425 467.97203 SAN 1992 Terreros y Pando, Esteban, “Diccionario castellano con las voces de ciencias y artes y sus correspondientes en las tres lenguas, francesa, latina e italiana”, facsímil de la ed. de 1786-1788, 3 vols., en Lexicografía española peninsular, diccionarios clásicos, ed. digital, Pedro Álvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundación Histórica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Vázquez R., Guillermina, “Glosario de arcaísmos”, en Juan de Torquemada, Monarquía indiana, de los veinte y un libros rituales y monarquía indiana, con el origen y guerras de los indios occidentales, de sus poblazones, descubrimiento, conquista, conversión y otras cosas maravillosas de la mesma tierra, vol. 7, Miguel León-Portilla, coordinador, México, Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1983. Vocabulario arquitectónico ilustrado, 3a. ed., Vicente Medel Martínez, director, México, Secretaría de Asentamientos Humanos y Obras Públicas, 1980. Willbern, Glen D., Elementos del vocabulario castellano del siglo trece, México, Editorial Jus, 1953. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jbierhorst at aol.com Thu Jan 7 10:59:02 2010 From: jbierhorst at aol.com (jbierhorst at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:59:02 EST Subject: New Nahuatl Website Message-ID: In December 2009 the University of Texas Libraries and the University of Texas Press launched a website to go with the publication of Ballads of the Lords of New Spain: The Codex Romances de los Senores de la Nueva Espana (June 2009). The address is www.utdigital.org or simply utdi.org, and it is free to the public. The website has the Ballads in it entirety, with these additional features: a photofacsimile of the manuscript folio by folio, a normative transcription (searchable), audio of the drum cadences, images from related codices, a map showing the "geography" of the Romances, and "pop-ups" from the Commentary so that these may be read together with the English translation. Also included: Cantares Mexicanos: Songs of the Aztecs in its entirety (with corrections), A Nahuatl-English Dictionary and Concordance to the Cantares Mexicanos (with corrections) -- courtesy of Stanford University Press -- an essay on corpus linguistics as it relates to the Romances/Cantares, and links to other Nahuatl websites. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ela95126 at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 19:05:21 2010 From: ela95126 at gmail.com (Elaine Anderson) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:05:21 -0600 Subject: simple basic grammar question - classical Nahuatl Message-ID: Piyalli. When a[tl] is possessed, it becomes, for example, "iauh", his water. What happens when the possession is modified with an embed? For example - If I wanted to render the English phrase "my flowery water" in Nahuatl, would it become: *noxochia? or *noxochiauh? Is there a rule someone can articulate for this? Tlazohcamati! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jan 12 15:15:18 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:15:18 -0500 Subject: simple basic grammar question - classical Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <1b7d44701001111105r385e8452r432502f62d35c304@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Quoting Elaine Anderson : > Piyalli. > > When a[tl] is possessed, it becomes, for example, "iauh", his water. What > happens when the possession is modified with an embed? For example - > If I wanted to render the English phrase "my flowery water" in Nahuatl, > would it become: > *noxochia? or *noxochiauh? > Is there a rule someone can articulate for this? > > Tlazohcamati! > Saludos, Elaine, "noxochiauh" is correct. The possessed noun -auh 'water' continues to function as a possessed noun, whether it is preceded by an embedded noun or not. This help? Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Jan 13 15:25:13 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:25:13 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl in public schools today Message-ID: Our good friend Ian Mursell has asked me if Nahuatl is being taught today in Mexican public schools. I believe that it is, having seen some textbooks for kids, and believe that I know of at least one school, but can anyone else on the list add to this? I just came back from a two-week tour of archaeological sites in Mexico and saw one school in the Yucatan proudly announcing that it was bi-lingual in Spanish and Maya. -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Jan 14 00:20:56 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:20:56 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl in public schools today In-Reply-To: <629359.34932.qm@web86702.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Our list focuses on things Nahua. For the Maya, join aztlan at lists.famsi.org, our sister list. It deals with all pre-columbian cultures, but has a distinct emphasis on things Maya. > Please, is it allowed to ask quickly about Mayan languages? > Is there an email group or forum for Mayan languages? > How much are the Mayan languages comprehensible to each other's speakers? > Which Mayan language is the name Chicxulub in, and please what does the > name mean? > > --- On Wed, 13/1/10, John F. Schwaller wrote: >> ...  I just came back from a two-week tour of archaeological sites in >> Mexico >> and saw one school in the Yucatan proudly announcing that it was >> bi-lingual in Spanish and Maya. > > -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ipedrozar at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 22:21:35 2010 From: ipedrozar at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Iv=E1n_Pedroza?=) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:21:35 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl in public schools today In-Reply-To: <4B4DE5D9.6020608@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: I believe that indigenous languages have been taught broadly since Vasconcelos's educational missions. I have seen nahuatl basic textbooks for children dating from Lázaro Cárdenas presidency. The Dirección General de Educación Indígena (DGEI) of the SEP is in charge of bilingual and bicultural education in the primary level. Nahuatl is taught in bilingual and bicultural schools in Tlaxcala, Puebla, Veracruz, Guerrero, Estado de México, Distrito Federal, Hidalgo, San Luis Potosí and Oaxaca. I ignore if these schools exist in the small native nahuatl speaking communities in Colima, Jalisco, Michoacan, Chiapas, Tabasco, Querétaro and Durango (mexicanero). The main statistics about bilingual-bicultural education can be found here: http://basica.sep.gob.mx/dgei/pdf/inicio/informacion/estadisticasDGEI.pdf Besides, nahuatl is taught in the public preparatorias that belong to the DF Government, and I there are similar special programmes in the Intercultural Universities in Veracruz and Puebla. I hope you find this useful. -- Iván Pedroza 2010/1/13 John F. Schwaller > > Our good friend Ian Mursell has asked me if Nahuatl is being taught > today in Mexican public schools. I believe that it is, having seen some > textbooks for kids, and believe that I know of at least one school, but > can anyone else on the list add to this? > > I just came back from a two-week tour of archaeological sites in Mexico > and saw one school in the Yucatan proudly announcing that it was > bi-lingual in Spanish and Maya. > > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tlaloc at umd.edu Thu Jan 14 04:54:08 2010 From: tlaloc at umd.edu (John B Carlson) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:54:08 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl words for "crazy" / "loco" Message-ID: 13 Jan 2010 Fellow Nahuatl Listeros, A friend from Nayarit asked me this question last year. In Classical Nahuatl... or in some modern Nahua language... what is the general word for "crazy" or "loco" in common speech? I'm talking about someone jokingly saying that someone is crazy or "nuts." There must be a number of expressions. If we wanted to go deeper, then I expect that it would be endless. If we were really asking about words for "insane" -- really clinically insane -- then we would get into all of the issues of how different cultures deal with mental illness and strange behavior. What is strange in one culture or context might or might not be in another. That topic could easily "morph" into a dissertation... To keep it simple, are there a few good Nahuatl terms for joking that someone is crazy? nutty? goofy? I think you know what I mean. Thanks in advance, John Carlson PS: I confess I have NOT done my homework on this. I haven't gone to any of the many dictionaries on my shelf. I figured that some of my crazy Nahuatlato colleagues might just have a quick answer or two. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Thu Jan 14 19:42:44 2010 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:42:44 +0100 Subject: 'Crazy' and the like in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi John, Xolopi'tli (~ xolopihtli) 'idiot, fool' covers the ground quite nicely. My students enjoy calling each other that, at least. You can find the term in Frances Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary. For 'crazy' there's a (Zacapoaxtla) dialect term cua:(yo:l)quepi. Then there's Classical Nahuatl i:xtepetla for someone stupid, an ignoramus. Classical te:huetzqui:ti' is 'buffoon, joker'. Hope that helps. Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rbenavides05 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 14 19:26:57 2010 From: rbenavides05 at hotmail.com (Rafael Benavides) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:26:57 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl words for "crazy" / "loco" (John B Carlson) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Carlson, A lot of the indigenous professors at IDIEZ in Zacatecas and I tease each other by saying "tihuihuiti" or "tihuihuitic." Most of them are speakers of eastern (Huastecan) Nahuatl from Veracruz and we've all understood the phrase as either "you are crazy" or "you have already turned crazy," but in a joking and teasing manner, obviously. I hope that helps! Rafael Benavides _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Thu Jan 14 22:22:26 2010 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:22:26 +0000 Subject: Nahuatl in public schools today In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- On Thu, 14/1/10, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Our list focuses on things Nahua. > For the Maya, join aztlan at lists.famsi.org, our sister list.  It deals with > all pre-columbian cultures, but has a distinct emphasis on things Maya. Thanks. Please where is the page with the list of FAMSI email groups, and the page where I can join aztlan at lists.famsi.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 18:17:34 2010 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:17:34 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 162, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In Hueyapan Nahuatl the words are: xipotetl - "fool/stupid person" kwekwetl - "crazy/exaggerated/manic/out of line person" kwananakatl - "sluggish/forgetful/distraught/drugged person" Magnus > 1. 'Crazy' and the like in Nahuatl (Gordon Whittaker) > 2. Nahuatl words for "crazy" / "loco" (John B Carlson) > (Rafael Benavides) > 3. Re: Nahuatl in public schools today (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Gordon Whittaker" > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:42:44 +0100 (CET) > Subject: [Nahuat-l] 'Crazy' and the like in Nahuatl > Hi John, > > Xolopi'tli (~ xolopihtli) 'idiot, fool' covers the ground quite nicely. My > students enjoy calling each other that, at least. You can find the term in > Frances Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary. For 'crazy' there's a > (Zacapoaxtla) dialect term cua:(yo:l)quepi. Then there's Classical Nahuatl > i:xtepetla for someone stupid, an ignoramus. Classical te:huetzqui:ti' is > 'buffoon, joker'. > > Hope that helps. > > Best, > Gordon > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Jan 16 18:04:08 2010 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:04:08 -0600 Subject: FLAS for Summer Nahuatl in Zacatecas Message-ID: Piyali tlamachtianih huan momachtianih, I would like to announce that beginning this year, FLAS funding for our Nahuatl summer intensive course is available to US citizen undergraduates as well as graduate students. You may apply directly through your home institution or to Jean Silk (jean.silk at yale.edu) when you apply for admission to the summer program. I have included the announcement for the summer program below. Please donʻt hesitate to contact me with questions regarding the course. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com Intensive Nahuatl Language and Culture Summer 2010 Yale’s Council on Latin American and Iberian Studies coordinates an intensive summer Nahuatl course through Yale Summer Sessions as NHTL 125. The course offers the opportunity to study at beginning, intermediate, or advanced levels of Classical and Modern Nahuatl at the Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas. Six weeks of class will be held in Zacatecas from June 21 to July 30, 2010 with an optional week in the village of Tepecxitla, Veracruz, from August 1 to August 6. The course seeks to: 1. develop students’ oral comprehension, speaking, reading, writing and knowledge of language structure, as well as their cultural wisdom and sensibility, in order to facilitate their ability to communicate effectively, correctly and creatively in everyday situations; 2. provide students with instruments and experiences that demonstrate the continuity between past and present Nahua culture, through the study of colonial and modern texts, conversation with native speakers, and an optional residency in a Nahua community; 3. penetrate into the historical, economic, political, social and cultural aspects of Nahua civilization; and 4. prepare students to take university level humanities courses taught in Nahuatl alongside native speakers. Beginning students will have class five hours per day, Monday through Friday: two hours of Modern Nahuatl immersion and introductory grammar with native speaking instructors; two hours of Classical Nahuatl taught by John Sullivan; and an additional hour of individual work on a research project of the student’s choice with a native speaking tutor. Intermediate students will study specific topics drawn from Older and Modern sources, using Nahuatl as the sole language of class discussion, and continue to work with individual tutors. Advanced students will design and implement a research project in collaboration with the native speaking tutors, and will write a short paper in Modern Nahuatl. Six week course in Zacatecas beginning Monday June 21 and ending Friday July 30. Full class attendance is required. Students who are absent for reasons other than illness will be asked to withdraw from the Institute. Students may elect to spend an optional seventh week in the village of Tepecxitla, Veracruz, from August 1 through Friday, August 6. They will reside with an indigenous family and participate in the Tlatlacualtiah ceremony. A decision regarding the viability of this homestay option will be made two months prior to the beginning of the program after the pertinent regional security issues have been evaluated. This visit, however, will not be under CLAIS auspices, and those students who wish to participate must cover the additional costs (see below). Tentative course costs: 1. Tuition for three credits, $4,000 2. Room for six weeks housing at the Hostal Villa Colonial in Zacatecas (one or two adults per room): a) studio with private bath and kitchenette, $660 (there are few of these available); b) studio with private bath and shared kitchen, $578; c) studio with shared bath and kitchen, $495. 3. Food for six weeks in Zacatecas: between $400 (preparing your own food) and $600 (eating out). Tuition is payable to Yale; all other costs including travel between the United States and Mexico are paid by the student directly to the provider. 4. (Optional) Students who travel to the village of Tepecxitla at the end of the course will pay $600 for transportation, room and board, and financing of the Chicomexochitl ceremony. Course materials: All students must have personal copies of the following texts: Karttunen, Francis. 1983. An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl. Texas Linguistics Series. Austin: University of Texas Press. $26.95 @ amazon. com Lockhart, James. 2001. Nahuatl as Written. Lessons in Older Written Nahuatl, with Copious Examples and Texts. Stanford: Stanford University Press. $25.43 @ amazon.com Molina, Alonso de. 1977(1555-1571). Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y mexicana y castellana. Colección “Biblioteca Porrúa” 44. México: Porrúa. Students may purchase this book directly from Editoria Porrúa or through IDIEZ at a cost of approximately $25. Two weeks before class begins students will be sent, free of charge, electronic copies of the exercise manuals, grammar charts, vocabulary lists and manuscripts which will be studied. Funding availability: CLAIS and its partners make every effort to ensure that financial constraints are not an obstacle for participating in the Summer Nahuatl Language program. Financial aid is available to undergraduate and graduate students in the form of FLAS fellowships through your own institution or CLAIS at Yale. Deadline for CLAIS FLAS applications is February 26, 2010. For more information, contact Jean Silk at jean.silk at yale.edu or by phone at 203/432-3420 or John Sullivan at idiez at me.com or by phone at +52 (492) 925-3415. To Register for the course, please contact Jean Silk, Assistant Chair, Council on Latin American and Iberian Studies, (jean.silk at yale.edu / 203/432-3420). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Sat Jan 16 23:30:36 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 00:30:36 +0100 Subject: El Saltillo Message-ID: El Saltillo Launey used in his works for the saltillo "l'accent circonflexe" on the vocal end. And sometimes he used "l'accent grave" when he referred to the saltillo itself. His work was mostly based on that of Carochi. Now I see everywhere in texts the notation of the saltillo as a -h. Is the use of the -h a consensus or a must, or is the use of both, the accent and the -h acceptable nowadays? Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Sun Jan 17 13:53:36 2010 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 08:53:36 -0500 Subject: -h for saltillo Message-ID: There is precedent for using orthographic -h for saltillo from the 16th-century, although it was not used systematically. The convention was adopted by J. Richard Andrews, who does use it systematically, and I carried it on in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl. My preference for -h was/is two-fold. First, I wanted to avoid proliferation of conventions and for the dictionary to be compatible with the Andrews grammar. Second, what we call "saltillo" functions as a consonant in Nahuatl, no matter whether its phonetic realization is a glottal stop (in some central dialects) or as an aspiration that would be represented as phonetic [h] (not to be confused with Spanish orthographic -h, which-- thanks to historical sound change--has no phonetic realization at all). When an accent mark over a vowel is used to indicate that that vowel is followed by saltillo, it implies that saltillo is a quality of the vowel rather than a consonant following the vowel. It is true that the saltillo does affect the quality of the preceding vowel, but from the point of view of the systematic phonology of Nahuatl, it is crucial to understand that syllables that end in saltillo function like syllables that end in the other consonants of Nahuatl and not like open syllables. Understanding and accepting the phonological contrast of open and closed syllables (and hence, stems that end in vowels versus stems that end in consonants) makes sense of Nahuatl morphology, which otherwise has the appearance of being dauntingly arbitrary. Frances Karttunen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr Sun Jan 17 14:40:00 2010 From: budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:40:00 +0100 Subject: El Saltillo Message-ID: 28 nivôse an CCXVIII (le 17 janvier 2010 d. c.-d. c. g.), 15 h 28 : 11,2 °C... ----- Original Message ----- From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be To: Nahuatl List Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 12:30 AM Subject: [Nahuat-l] El Saltillo > El Saltillo > Launey used in his works for the saltillo "l'accent circonflexe" on the vocal end. > And sometimes he used "l'accent grave" when he referred to the saltillo itself. /accent circonflexe/ « ^ » a the end of a word, /accent grave/ « ` » in the middle : « tlàtòquê », « kings », « /'/ » and « [?] » as itself, « /La'to'ke'/ » and « [tla?to?ke?] ». > His work was mostly based on that of Carochi. He is right. > Now I see everywhere in texts the notation of the saltillo as a -h. They are wrong. > Is the use of the -h a consensus Le consensus est la science des ânes. > or a must, or is the use of both, the accent and the -h acceptable nowadays? > Lahun Ik 62 > Baert Georges > Flanders Fields Budelberger, Richard. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jan 17 15:41:40 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 10:41:40 -0500 Subject: -h for saltillo In-Reply-To: <53BFAEA6-11C6-417D-8BE2-57C279FE78A2@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Thank you, Dr. Karttunen, for this very nice elucidation. Best regards, Michael Quoting Frances Karttunen : > There is precedent for using orthographic -h for saltillo from the > 16th-century, although it was not used systematically. The > convention was adopted by J. Richard Andrews, who does use it > systematically, and I carried it on in An Analytical Dictionary of > Nahuatl. > > My preference for -h was/is two-fold. First, I wanted to avoid > proliferation of conventions and for the dictionary to be compatible > with the Andrews grammar. > > Second, what we call "saltillo" functions as a consonant in Nahuatl, > no matter whether its phonetic realization is a glottal stop (in some > central dialects) or as an aspiration that would be represented as > phonetic [h] (not to be confused with Spanish orthographic -h, > which-- thanks to historical sound change--has no phonetic > realization at all). > > When an accent mark over a vowel is used to indicate that that vowel > is followed by saltillo, it implies that saltillo is a quality of the > vowel rather than a consonant following the vowel. It is true that > the saltillo does affect the quality of the preceding vowel, but from > the point of view of the systematic phonology of Nahuatl, it is > crucial to understand that syllables that end in saltillo function > like syllables that end in the other consonants of Nahuatl and not > like open syllables. > > Understanding and accepting the phonological contrast of open and > closed syllables (and hence, stems that end in vowels versus stems > that end in consonants) makes sense of Nahuatl morphology, which > otherwise has the appearance of being dauntingly arbitrary. > > Frances Karttunen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Sun Jan 17 06:47:08 2010 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 22:47:08 -0800 Subject: date of 1 Atlacahualo Message-ID: Listeros, Broda, Hassig and others have used February 12 (Gregorian) as 1 Atlacahualo.  I’ve also seen February 13 used.  Can anyone give me the citation for this latter date as 1 Atlacahualo? Thanks, Tom Grigsby G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria GSM: 359 0899 784 081 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jan 17 20:50:36 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:50:36 -0600 Subject: Ense=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1anza_del_n=E1huatl_en_la_ciudad_de_M=E9xico?= Message-ID: In response to a recent query, here is an article from two years ago on a project to teach Nahuatl in Mexico City. This is just one of many efforts to keep indigenous languages alive and healthy in a generally adverse climate. http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2008/01/14/index.php?section=cultura&article 5n 1cul Here's a study about that adverse climate, from around the same time as the article: http://www.inali.gob.mx/pdf/PINALI-2008-2012.pdf David Wright Guanajuato, Gto. México _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jan 17 21:00:21 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:00:21 -0600 Subject: Semasiograf=?iso-8859-1?Q?=EDa_o_glotograf=EDa_en_la_Piedra_de_T=EDzoc_?= y la Piedra del ex Arzobispado Message-ID: Muy estimados listeros: Los textos pictóricos del centro de México (Altiplano Central, Costa del Golfo y Oaxaca) que fueron escritos/pintados/esculpidos durante la época Prehispánica parecen tener un porcentaje mayor de signos semasiográficos (que expresan ideas, sin vincularse necesariamente con las estructuras de una lengua específica) que los textos pictóricos ejecutados después de la Conquista, donde vemos un uso mayor de la glotografía (expresando estructuras lingúísticas como palabras, morfemas, sílabas o fonemas), aunque en ambos periodos se trata de un sistema mixto que combina signos de ambas categorías. Hoy se discute si los textos con una relativa abundancia de signos glotográficos (especialmente los del Acolhuacan de mediados del siglo XVI) reflejan o no la situación prehispánica. En un intento de contribuir a la resolución de este problema, hice un análisis de todos los signos toponímicos esculpidos en la Piedra de Tízoc y la Piedra del ex Arzobispado, con el objetivo de determinar su naturaleza semasiográfica o glotográfica. Los resultados acaban de se publicados. Puedo enviar una versión de mi artículo en formato .pdf a quien me lo solicite, a la dirección dcwright at prodigy.net.mx. Saludos cordiales, David Wright _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mikelffgg at yahoo.com Mon Jan 18 16:05:54 2010 From: mikelffgg at yahoo.com (Mikel Fernandez) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 08:05:54 -0800 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: I read in an article: “De hecho –cuenta- hace 15 días falleció el nahuatlato más importante de Milpa Alta, quien había heredado una serie de historias, relatos y anecdotarios. El era el último que se lo sabía todo en náhuatl.”     http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2008/01/14/index.php?section=cultura&article=a05n1cul     Does anyone know who could be this nahuatlato  and if there is any book about  their knowledge?   The death was in the las days of 2007.     Thanks Mikel ____________________________________________________________________________________ ¡Obtén la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=e1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jan 18 16:30:12 2010 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:30:12 -0500 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: I read in an article: “De hecho –cuenta- hace 15 días falleció el nahuatlato más importante de Milpa Alta, quien había heredado una serie de historias, relatos y anecdotarios. El era el último que se lo sabía todo en náhuatl.” http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2008/01/14/index.php? section=cultura&article=a05n1cul Does anyone know who could be this nahuatlato and if there is any book about their knowledge? The death was in the las days of 2007. Could this be Carlos Lopez Avila, author of Malacachtepec Momoxco: Historia legendaria de Milpa Alta (1982)? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cdberry at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 22:48:28 2010 From: cdberry at gmail.com (Craig Berry) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:48:28 -0800 Subject: Reference on alignment of solar and ritual calendars? Message-ID: Can anyone recommend a good source (preferably on the web) for information on how the solar calendar of 18 20-day periods plus the nemontemi, and the ritual calendar of 260 days, align? I'm interested in understanding when the year-bearer day occurs -- the "new year" date, so to speak. Thanks in advance! -- Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ "Lots of things in the universe don’t solve any problems, and nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Mon Jan 18 19:59:39 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:59:39 +0100 Subject: El Saltillo Message-ID: Dear one's, I fully understand the argumentation of Lady Frances Karttunen contrasting open and closed syllables and the use of the –h as the saltillo and as consonant, thanks anyway. Like you said the saltillo is more than a morphogram, a sign to close a syllable,it is a phonogram too with a special sound. But what about the following verbs and their Base 2 (verbal stem of the preteritum, el pretirito): Ìcihui, ìcihui > iciuh. Cōhua, cōhua > cōuh. Palēhuia, palēhuia > palēhuih. Pōhua, pōhua > pōuh. Chīhua, chīhua >chiuh. Ēhua, ēhua > ēuh. Cāhua, cāhua > cāuh. These are all verbs by which the end letters change of place in Base 2. The ending –h, is that a saltillo, or is it just the letter –h? And if it is just a letter –h, what is than the difference between the two? Or is there no difference? Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields. PS. My excuses to the moderator. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Jan 19 04:39:21 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:39:21 -0600 Subject: El Saltillo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Baert, All of your examples except "palehuia" are class 2 verbs ending in hu- /w/ + vowel. These verbs lose the final vowel in the preterite. When the hu- becomes word-final (and even when it is syllable-final inside the word) it becomes voiceless and is written -uh. So we are not talking about a saltillo, rather the change from a voiced /w/ to a voiceless /w/. "palehuia" is a class 3 verb, and when it goes to the preterite, the final vowel is lost and a saltillo (h) appears. In modern Huastecan Nahuatl the "h" and the "-uh" sound similar, but there is a difference. And while an "h" causes a preceding long vowel to shorten, the "-uh" does not. John On Jan 18, 2010, at 1:59 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: > Dear one's, > I fully understand the argumentation of Lady Frances Karttunen contrasting open and closed syllables and the use of the –h as the saltillo and as consonant, thanks anyway. > Like you said the saltillo is more than a morphogram, a sign to close a syllable,it is a phonogram too with a special sound. > But what about the following verbs and their Base 2 (verbal stem of the preteritum, el pretirito): > Ìcihui, ìcihui > iciuh. > Cōhua, cōhua > cōuh. > Palēhuia, palēhuia > palēhuih. > Pōhua, pōhua > pōuh. > Chīhua, chīhua >chiuh. > Ēhua, ēhua > ēuh. > Cāhua, cāhua > cāuh. > These are all verbs by which the end letters change of place in Base 2. > The ending –h, is that a saltillo, or is it just the letter –h? > And if it is just a letter –h, what is than the difference between the two? > Or is there no difference? > Lahun Ik 62 > Baert Georges > Flanders Fields. > PS. My excuses to the moderator. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Jan 19 05:11:35 2010 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:11:35 -0500 Subject: El Saltillo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Nahuatl orthography used in the 16th century and continuing to the present (along with a number of alternative orthographies that have been proposed since) uses some digraphs (two characters to represent a single consonant). Examples at tl for laterally released t as in tletl; tz as in tzapotl and itepotz; ch in Nahuatl chihua and nochpoch; qu before i and e; etc. Spanish uses hu- for phonetic w, which only occurs syllable-initially in Spanish. But in Nahuatl, [w] can be syllable-final as well as syllable-initial. In that case, the digraph is turned around and written -uh. So hu- as in huipilli and -uh as is notepeuh (possessed form of tepetl). (By the way, I am omitting vowel-length marking here, because the macrons in my Nahuatl print font often do strange things in the course of email transmission.) Similarly, the traditional Nahuatl orthography uses cu- in syllable- initial position but -uc syllable-finally: cualli but teuctli. Sometimes in traditional orthography, instead of the digraph -uc, the trigraph -cuh has been used (tecuhtli), and that causes all sorts of confusion, because people take the h here to be the saltillo, which it is not. cu-, -uc, and -cuh all stand for k made with rounded lips. In the examples cited below, the systematic dropping of a stem-final vowel in the past tense of Type 2 verbs changes the position of w from syllable-initial (ihui, ohua, -ihua, ehua, ahua) to syllable- final (iuh, ouh, iuh, euh, auh). So no, the h in these digraphs is not saltillo. It is part of hu- ~ uh, representing w. On Jan 18, 2010, at 2:59 PM, wrote: > Dear one's, > > I fully understand the argumentation of Lady Frances Karttunen > contrasting open and closed syllables and the use of the –h as the > saltillo and as consonant, thanks anyway. > > Like you said the saltillo is more than a morphogram, a sign to > close a syllable,it is a phonogram too with a special sound. > > But what about the following verbs and their Base 2 (verbal stem of > the preteritum, el pretirito): > > Ìcihui, ìcihui > iciuh. > > Cōhua, cōhua > cōuh. > > Palēhuia, palēhuia > palēhuih. > > Pōhua, pōhua > pōuh. > > Chīhua, chīhua >chiuh. > > Ēhua, ēhua > ēuh. > > Cāhua, cāhua > cāuh. > > These are all verbs by which the end letters change of place in > Base 2. > > The ending –h, is that a saltillo, or is it just the letter –h? > > And if it is just a letter –h, what is than the difference between > the two? > > Or is there no difference? > > Lahun Ik 62 > > Baert Georges > > Flanders Fields. > > PS. My excuses to the moderator. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From swood at uoregon.edu Wed Jan 20 01:23:52 2010 From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:23:52 -0800 Subject: NEH summer institute in Oaxaca, 2010 Message-ID: Please post or forward (apologies for any duplication): "Mesoamerican Cultures and their Histories: Spotlight on Oaxaca!" NEH Summer Institute, July 11-August 7, 2010, in Oaxaca, Mexico This is a four-week institute for school teachers (K-12, public or private) wishing to develop curricular materials about Mesoamerican cultures and their histories (with a focus on the peoples of Oaxaca, in southern Mexico, in pre-Columbian and Spanish-colonial times). The institute will include excursions to ruined, ancient settlements and modern-day indigenous communities. We will have a week on archaeology, a week on ethnohistory, a week on the arts, and a week on film. Participating lecturers will be drawn from among Oaxacan scholars and a few faculty from the University of Oregon, home of a number of renowned Mesoamerican digital collections. We will offer optional technological workshops on Fridays. Curricular materials that result from the institute will become part of a free, shared resource among participants. We have room for up to 27 teachers, plus up to 3 grad students who are preparing to be teachers. Participants who are selected from the national competition will receive a stipend of $3000 plus what is left from another $300 being held back to cover entrance fees on field trips, etc. The $3000 stipend is meant to cover most expenses such as travel, lodging, and food, but we cannot guarantee that it will cover all expenses (depending upon the choice of hotels and restaurants). Participants will arrange their own travel and lodging, but we are organizing some specials with hotels placed near our meeting locations in downtown Oaxaca city. Books are normally to be purchased from the stipend, too, but we are making digital versions of all the readings to save the participants money and to prevent having to carry heavy books in suitcases. For more information, please visit our website: http://whp.uoregon.edu/mesoinstitute/ You may also send questions to: Stephanie Wood, Director (swood AT uoregon DOT edu). Stephanie Wood, Ph.D., Director Wired Humanities Projects Yamada Language Center 1236 University of Oregon Eugene, Oregon 97403-1236 U.S.A. Tel. 541-346-5771 swood at uoregon.edu Office: UO Annex, Suite 4 876 E. 12th Avenue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 18:45:15 2010 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:45:15 -0600 Subject: 12 0 13 de febrero = 1 Atlcahualo Message-ID: Hola foristas y Tom En días pasados Tom Grigsby pregunto sobre que autor moderno utiliza la fecha de 13 de febrero (calendario gregoriano) como equivalente a la fecha de 1Atlcahualo Nos dice Tom "Broda, Hassig and others have used February 12 (Gregorian) as 1 Atlacahualo. I’ve also seen February 13 used. Can anyone give me the citation for this latter date as 1 Atlacahualo?" A la pregunta hay una respuesta que no pude leer del notable investigador I Sprajc porque el mail desafortunadamente me llego con caracteres basura ilegibles Ojala vuelva ser enviado Me permito responder tu pregunta : Un autor que utiliza la fecha 13 de febrero como correlación con 1 Atlcahualo es el historiador de arte: Michael Graulich. Así lo hace en el cuadro 3 de su obra clave publicada en el año de 1987 , llamada en español: "La fiesta de las veintenas" , señalando que la veintena de Atlcahualo corre del día 13/2 al día 4/3 . Graulich coloca estas fechas cuando anota , en su particular juicio y personal propuesta, el calendario que considera desfasado y carente de un mecanismo de ajuste con la duración real del año trópico mecanismo que en el caso de los romanos se llamo doble sexto sexto bis o bisexto o deformado bisiesto (ver p 65 edicion mexicana de la obra citada) La equiparación señalada está anotada en el segundo capítulo de la obra citada en donde junto al primer ca´pitulo Graulich expone y desarrolla lo que sera su fundamento argumental, los cimientos y "traves" de las posteriores tesis de interpretación que hace en esa y en otras obras , y en donde también de manera mas clara nos muestra su metodo de trabajo, su forma de tratar y susar los datos , su óptica y su método de analisis y sus hipotesis o mejor dicho en muchos casos los postulados que fundan su interpretación Debo anotar que me asombra que este dato no lo hayan respondido los muchos seguidores de las tesis de Graullich en su peculiar interpretación de la religión y el calendario "azteca" . Me extraña su falta de respuesta dado la forma como muchos de los seguidores de Graulich adoptan sus tesis no como una interpretación mas de la religión "azteca" sino como la verdadera interpretación y a veces me parece como una nueva religión tanto "azteca" como moderna. La actitud de muchos de sus seguidores y la fama y el peso que esta interpretación ha ido adquiriendo en los medios académicos, es un fenomeno que me recuerda a lo ocurrido hace décadas cuando yo estudiaba ciencias sociales con lo que paso con la fama y efímera "hegemonia" del altuserrianismo y estructuralismo marxistoide en filosofia, economia y sociologia con Althusser , Poulantzas Bettelheim, y como despues de nuevo ocurrió con las propuestas de otros pensadores franceses como Foucalt o el pensamiento de Delauze y Guattari y otros mas los cuales como Graulich no son responsables de los actos de su "grey". En todo caso la propuesta del dia 13 de febrero como 1 Atlcahualo que hace Graulich no me parece errada si se considera como cierta que el dia indiano iba del mediodia al medio dia esto es ocuparía del dia 12 de febrero actual a las 12 del día hasta las 12 horas del día 12 de febrero del día 13 de febrero. Lo que lleva supuesto que en la religión "azteca" la vida el mundo inicio a las 12 del día a plena luz . Algo que todas las religiones plantean Y hagase la luz dijo dios, pues a ningun pueblo le interesa destacar que lo primero que hizo dios al hacer el mundo fue dejarlo a oscuras, aunque cuando vemos la tragedia ocurrida en Haiti pienso que si acaso existe Dios realmente hace las cosas en la oscuridad y deja al mundo en las tinieblas. Por otro lado para mi en todo caso, me parece mas interesante la sobrevivencia de la fecha 2 de febrero en el ritual religioso vigente en las regiones rurales y que aun pervive en algunos aspectos en ciudades de Mexico. El dos de febrero se celebra en la liturgia oficial católica la purificación de la virgen , rito judaico heredado , el fin de la cuarentena ésto es los cuarenta días que no se podia tener relaciones sexuales con una mujer que recien había parido, en este caso esa niña de 12 años que fue llamada la virgen María.. Pero el sentido religioso oficial cristiano judaico como tal no es tomado en cuenta en la celebración religiosa popular que se hace en México El nombre mas comun de la fiesta del dos de febrero es llamarle la fiesta de la Candelaria , en recuerdo de las candelas, lease teas y fogatas que en ese día se hacía en tiempos coloniales . En todas partes de México sitios rurales urbanos "levantan" al niño dios del "nacimiento " y se le viste con ropajes nuevos algunos estramboticos como uniformes de equipois d futbol soccer . En poblaciones rurales aún se acostumbra ese día de la candelaria llevar bendecir velas que usran en caso de muerte o para rituales paganos o cristianos en demanda del temporal y bendicen semillas que se usaran en la siguiente siembra , la siembra grande que en muchas zonas ocurre en marzo Alguna ves pregunte en un foro español si la bendición de semillas se acostumbraba en España pero nadie me respondio. No se si la bendición de semillas el dos de febrero sea un rito sólo practicado en México, epro por la información que he sacado sólo en Páginas WEB parace que si lo es. La antropologa Beatriz Albores que ha estudiado el valle del Alto lerma, para decirlo mas claro el valle de Toluca, zona otomiana, originalmente matlatzinca , despues ñañu y despues con "colonos" nahoas , propone que la fiesta de la candelaria forma parte de un ciclo de fiestas catolicas que de manera sincretica reproducen o dan luz sobre el ciclo de fiestas prehispánicas de esa región otomiana. Recomiendo que consigas los articulos de la Dra Albores publicados en la revista de de Estudios otopames editado por el Instituto de Investigaciones Antropológicas de la UNAM Si su interes es el calendario "azteca" recomiendo tambien el fundamentado estudio "El Calendario Mexica y la cronografía" de Rafael Tena publicado en segunda reimpresión por el INAH en el año 2008 en donde se aborda la propuesta de la existencia de un mecanismo de ajuste del calendario a la duración real del año trópico , Tena propone y fundamenta la existencia de un un día biquinto lo cual pictoricamente estaría ilustrado en las láminas 7r del códice Telleriano y y 92r del Maglabechi y ubicado en los nemontemi o días vacios que en la inerpretación de tena ya no lo serían sino tendrían importancia religiosa y su area de intervencion divinna sería la lluvia http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Telleriano-Remensis/page_07r.jpg http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Magliabecchiano/page_92r.jpg Espero haber sido util Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Thu Jan 21 14:33:48 2010 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:33:48 +0100 Subject: 12 0 13 de febrero = 1 Atlcahualo Message-ID: Roberto, En el octavo parrafo despues de "Me permito responder tu pregunta" mencionas el "dia INDIANO". Te estas refiriendo a la India??? o al dia Azteca? :-| Susana ----- Original Message ----- From: roberto romero To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 7:45 PM Subject: [Nahuat-l] 12 0 13 de febrero = 1 Atlcahualo Hola foristas y Tom En días pasados Tom Grigsby pregunto sobre que autor moderno utiliza la fecha de 13 de febrero (calendario gregoriano) como equivalente a la fecha de 1Atlcahualo Nos dice Tom "Broda, Hassig and others have used February 12 (Gregorian) as 1 Atlacahualo. I’ve also seen February 13 used. Can anyone give me the citation for this latter date as 1 Atlacahualo?" A la pregunta hay una respuesta que no pude leer del notable investigador I Sprajc porque el mail desafortunadamente me llego con caracteres basura ilegibles Ojala vuelva ser enviado Me permito responder tu pregunta : Un autor que utiliza la fecha 13 de febrero como correlación con 1 Atlcahualo es el historiador de arte: Michael Graulich. Así lo hace en el cuadro 3 de su obra clave publicada en el año de 1987 , llamada en español: "La fiesta de las veintenas" , señalando que la veintena de Atlcahualo corre del día 13/2 al día 4/3 . Graulich coloca estas fechas cuando anota , en su particular juicio y personal propuesta, el calendario que considera desfasado y carente de un mecanismo de ajuste con la duración real del año trópico mecanismo que en el caso de los romanos se llamo doble sexto sexto bis o bisexto o deformado bisiesto (ver p 65 edicion mexicana de la obra citada) La equiparación señalada está anotada en el segundo capítulo de la obra citada en donde junto al primer ca´pitulo Graulich expone y desarrolla lo que sera su fundamento argumental, los cimientos y "traves" de las posteriores tesis de interpretación que hace en esa y en otras obras , y en donde también de manera mas clara nos muestra su metodo de trabajo, su forma de tratar y susar los datos , su óptica y su método de analisis y sus hipotesis o mejor dicho en muchos casos los postulados que fundan su interpretación Debo anotar que me asombra que este dato no lo hayan respondido los muchos seguidores de las tesis de Graullich en su peculiar interpretación de la religión y el calendario "azteca" . Me extraña su falta de respuesta dado la forma como muchos de los seguidores de Graulich adoptan sus tesis no como una interpretación mas de la religión "azteca" sino como la verdadera interpretación y a veces me parece como una nueva religión tanto "azteca" como moderna. La actitud de muchos de sus seguidores y la fama y el peso que esta interpretación ha ido adquiriendo en los medios académicos, es un fenomeno que me recuerda a lo ocurrido hace décadas cuando yo estudiaba ciencias sociales con lo que paso con la fama y efímera "hegemonia" del altuserrianismo y estructuralismo marxistoide en filosofia, economia y sociologia con Althusser , Poulantzas Bettelheim, y como despues de nuevo ocurrió con las propuestas de otros pensadores franceses como Foucalt o el pensamiento de Delauze y Guattari y otros mas los cuales como Graulich no son responsables de los actos de su "grey". En todo caso la propuesta del dia 13 de febrero como 1 Atlcahualo que hace Graulich no me parece errada si se considera como cierta que el dia indiano iba del mediodia al medio dia esto es ocuparía del dia 12 de febrero actual a las 12 del día hasta las 12 horas del día 12 de febrero del día 13 de febrero. Lo que lleva supuesto que en la religión "azteca" la vida el mundo inicio a las 12 del día a plena luz . Algo que todas las religiones plantean Y hagase la luz dijo dios, pues a ningun pueblo le interesa destacar que lo primero que hizo dios al hacer el mundo fue dejarlo a oscuras, aunque cuando vemos la tragedia ocurrida en Haiti pienso que si acaso existe Dios realmente hace las cosas en la oscuridad y deja al mundo en las tinieblas. Por otro lado para mi en todo caso, me parece mas interesante la sobrevivencia de la fecha 2 de febrero en el ritual religioso vigente en las regiones rurales y que aun pervive en algunos aspectos en ciudades de Mexico. El dos de febrero se celebra en la liturgia oficial católica la purificación de la virgen , rito judaico heredado , el fin de la cuarentena ésto es los cuarenta días que no se podia tener relaciones sexuales con una mujer que recien había parido, en este caso esa niña de 12 años que fue llamada la virgen María.. Pero el sentido religioso oficial cristiano judaico como tal no es tomado en cuenta en la celebración religiosa popular que se hace en México El nombre mas comun de la fiesta del dos de febrero es llamarle la fiesta de la Candelaria , en recuerdo de las candelas, lease teas y fogatas que en ese día se hacía en tiempos coloniales . En todas partes de México sitios rurales urbanos "levantan" al niño dios del "nacimiento " y se le viste con ropajes nuevos algunos estramboticos como uniformes de equipois d futbol soccer . En poblaciones rurales aún se acostumbra ese día de la candelaria llevar bendecir velas que usran en caso de muerte o para rituales paganos o cristianos en demanda del temporal y bendicen semillas que se usaran en la siguiente siembra , la siembra grande que en muchas zonas ocurre en marzo Alguna ves pregunte en un foro español si la bendición de semillas se acostumbraba en España pero nadie me respondio. No se si la bendición de semillas el dos de febrero sea un rito sólo practicado en México, epro por la información que he sacado sólo en Páginas WEB parace que si lo es. La antropologa Beatriz Albores que ha estudiado el valle del Alto lerma, para decirlo mas claro el valle de Toluca, zona otomiana, originalmente matlatzinca , despues ñañu y despues con "colonos" nahoas , propone que la fiesta de la candelaria forma parte de un ciclo de fiestas catolicas que de manera sincretica reproducen o dan luz sobre el ciclo de fiestas prehispánicas de esa región otomiana. Recomiendo que consigas los articulos de la Dra Albores publicados en la revista de de Estudios otopames editado por el Instituto de Investigaciones Antropológicas de la UNAM Si su interes es el calendario "azteca" recomiendo tambien el fundamentado estudio "El Calendario Mexica y la cronografía" de Rafael Tena publicado en segunda reimpresión por el INAH en el año 2008 en donde se aborda la propuesta de la existencia de un mecanismo de ajuste del calendario a la duración real del año trópico , Tena propone y fundamenta la existencia de un un día biquinto lo cual pictoricamente estaría ilustrado en las láminas 7r del códice Telleriano y y 92r del Maglabechi y ubicado en los nemontemi o días vacios que en la inerpretación de tena ya no lo serían sino tendrían importancia religiosa y su area de intervencion divinna sería la lluvia http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Telleriano-Remensis/page_07r.jpg http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Magliabecchiano/page_92r.jpg Espero haber sido util Roberto Romero Gutierrez ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From swood at uoregon.edu Thu Jan 21 20:18:10 2010 From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:18:10 -0800 Subject: map/mapa exhibit for 2012-13? Message-ID: Hello listeros (please excuse duplication), I am part of a committee that is trying to organize an exhibit on our campus (U of Oregon) for the academic year 2012-13 that would include Age of Exploration maps of the Americas and mapas/lienzos authored by indigenous people of Mesoamerica ca. 1550-1900. This could include alphabetic, indigenous language texts, too. If you are a curator or are in close touch with one, and you believe your institution might have -- and be willing to loan (this is key) -- one or more pieces for such an exhibit, would you please contact me off list? We are having a difficult time finding repositories that are willing to loan items. Either they do not loan at all, or they are loaning to a competing exhibit, or their items will need to be "resting" at that time. We can provide information about our museum's security, climate control, light, etc., as necessary. We are open to collaboration, and having an exhibit travel to another venue or two (if the loan stipulations would permit that). Also, if you have suggestions about grants that are available to help underwrite such exhibits, I would be pleased to hear about those. I am aware of what NEH offers. Thanks in advance! Stephanie Wood University of Oregon _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Jan 23 03:54:42 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 21:54:42 -0600 Subject: Yancuic tlamahuizolli tlen IDIEZ Message-ID: Piyali momachtianih, Oncah ce yancuic tlamahuizolli tlen IDIEZ pan youtube: itocah "Tlahpaloliztli". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From swood at uoregon.edu Fri Jan 29 23:00:06 2010 From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:00:06 -0800 Subject: Mesoamerica & digital humanities Message-ID: The Wired Humanities Projects at the University of Oregon (with 90% of our digital humanities research projects having a Mesoamerican focus -- see http://whp.uoregon.edu/ ) is looking for a new home. We have been very successful at winning external funding, and would like to be able to continue writing grant proposals. We are open to collaboration. Any leads would be much appreciated. Please direct your replies to me off list. I apologize for any duplication and I hope people won't mind my using the listserv to make this inquiry. Thanks very much! Stephanie Wood, Ph.D., Director Wired Humanities Projects Yamada Language Center 1236 University of Oregon Eugene, Oregon 97403-1236 U.S.A. Tel. 541-346-5771 swood at uoregon.edu Office: UO Annex, Suite 4 876 E. 12th Avenue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Jan 30 23:10:10 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:10:10 -0600 Subject: Calques in Otomi and Nahuatl Message-ID: Muy estimados listeros: We have become accustomed to equating language and culture, when in reality language is but one element in the complex mosaic of learned behavior that constitutes culture. After searching for three decades for significant nonlinguistic cultural differences between speakers of Otomi and Nahuatl in late pre-Hispanic and early colonial central Mexico (and not finding many), I have reached the tentative conclusion that there was an essentially homogenous plurilinguistic culture in this region. Nonlinguistic cultural differences exist, but their distribution rarely coincides with linguistic boundaries (which are, to say the least, quite fuzzy). One way to put this idea to the test is to look at the words and phrases used by different language groups to talk about aspects of culture. When this is done with Otomi and Nahuatl we often find calques, sometimes metaphorical in nature, in which key concepts cross language boundaries, each group expressing the same idea in their own words. The list published by Thomas Smith-Stark* is a useful starting point, athough the Otomi corpus is inadequately represented; when 16th century vocabularies are considered, the list expands enormously. Needless to say, this has important implications for the interpretation of pictorial texts, and explains in part why groups with languages as diverse as Nahuatl, Mixtec, and Otomi used the same pictorial signs to express the same concepts within a basically semasiographic system which straddles the blurry border between the western categories of writing and visual arts (although each group could use homophonic word plays to create glottographs, which can be divided into logographs --which express morphemes, that is, sounds with meaning-- and phonographs --which express sounds that are not necessarily tied to meaning, like syllables and phonemes--). In the new volume (no. 16) of Tlalocan, I look at Otomi and Nahuatl calendrical terms, where calques are the norm. If anyone would like for me to e-mail them a PDF file scanned from the published text, please let me know at dchwrightcarr at yahoo.com. In another article, published on line, I explore Otomi and Nahuatl names for social structures, where there are also many calques. I think I mentioned this on the Nahuat-l list when it came out, but since it relates to the Tlalocan article I'll provide the URL again: http://www.dinpo.ugto.mx/acta/publicaciones/v18-esp/actav18-esp.htm Comments are welcome, preferably off-list, unless there is something that you feel is a worthy topic for group discussion. Saludos, David * Smith-Stark, Thomas C., “Mesoamerican calques,” in Investigaciones lingüísticas en Mesoamérica, Carolyn J. MacKay and Verónica Vázquez, editors, Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1994, pp. 15-50. Some of the data presented in the latter article also appears in: Campbell, Lyle; Kaufman, Terrence; Thomas C. Smith-Stark, “Meso-America as a linguistic area,” in Language (Linguistic Society of America), vol. 62, no. 3, September 1986, pp. 530-570. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu Sun Jan 31 21:26:10 2010 From: Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu (Michael Smith) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:26:10 -0700 Subject: David Wright on Otomi and Nahuatl Message-ID: I would be interested in hearing commentary from linguists and others about David's very interesting paper in Acta Universitaria (the link is in his latest post). I found this paper extremely enlightening and very surprising. Who would have thought that the political, urban, and social hierarchies in Otomi and Nahuatl cultures were virtually identical in structure? Perhaps my amazement comes from ignorance or naiveté. But in Mesoamerican studies we are accustomed to thinking in ethnic terms, and interpreting societies, cultures, and material culture in terms of ethnic groups. The Nahuas were like this, and the Otomis were like that. Maybe we have internalized the ethnic stereotypes in Sahagún (Otomi blockheads, etc.). But I found David's article enlightening and I am having students read it. How common is his notion of a "essentially homogeneous plurilinguistic culture" ? Is this a common occurrence in other areas? Is his model surprising, or something to be expected? What are the implications of this kind of model for understanding prehispanic society in central Mexico? (please pardon my ignorance here, I readily admit to being among the linguistically-challenged, and I no longer have departmental colleagues like John Justeson to pester about these things). Mike Smith Wright Carr, David Charles 2008 La sociedad prehispánica en las lenguas Náhuatl y Otomí. Acta Universitaria (Universidad de Guanajuato) 18(especial):15-23. Michael E. Smith, Professor School of Human Evolution & Social Change Arizona State University www.public.asu.edu/~mesmith9 http://publishingarchaeology.blogspot.com http://calixtlahuaca.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Jan 31 23:05:21 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 17:05:21 -0600 Subject: Calques in Otomi and Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <006401caa201$5f3d99a0$1db8cce0$@net.mx> Message-ID: Piyali listeros, I agree with you, David. One very highly regarded tepahtihquetl/xochitlalquetl in the Chicontepec area of northern Veracruz is the otomí, don Juanito. He speaks no Nahuatl, but the form and content of his performance (for lack of a better word) of the tlatlacualtia ceremony in Nahua villages is indistinguishable from that of Nahua practitioners. John On Jan 30, 2010, at 5:10 PM, David Wright wrote: > Muy estimados listeros: > > We have become accustomed to equating language and culture, when in reality > language is but one element in the complex mosaic of learned behavior that > constitutes culture. After searching for three decades for significant > nonlinguistic cultural differences between speakers of Otomi and Nahuatl in > late pre-Hispanic and early colonial central Mexico (and not finding many), > I have reached the tentative conclusion that there was an essentially > homogenous plurilinguistic culture in this region. Nonlinguistic cultural > differences exist, but their distribution rarely coincides with linguistic > boundaries (which are, to say the least, quite fuzzy). > > One way to put this idea to the test is to look at the words and phrases > used by different language groups to talk about aspects of culture. When > this is done with Otomi and Nahuatl we often find calques, sometimes > metaphorical in nature, in which key concepts cross language boundaries, > each group expressing the same idea in their own words. The list published > by Thomas Smith-Stark* is a useful starting point, athough the Otomi corpus > is inadequately represented; when 16th century vocabularies are considered, > the list expands enormously. > > Needless to say, this has important implications for the interpretation of > pictorial texts, and explains in part why groups with languages as diverse > as Nahuatl, Mixtec, and Otomi used the same pictorial signs to express the > same concepts within a basically semasiographic system which straddles the > blurry border between the western categories of writing and visual arts > (although each group could use homophonic word plays to create glottographs, > which can be divided into logographs --which express morphemes, that is, > sounds with meaning-- and phonographs --which express sounds that are not > necessarily tied to meaning, like syllables and phonemes--). > > In the new volume (no. 16) of Tlalocan, I look at Otomi and Nahuatl > calendrical terms, where calques are the norm. If anyone would like for me > to e-mail them a PDF file scanned from the published text, please let me > know at dchwrightcarr at yahoo.com. > > In another article, published on line, I explore Otomi and Nahuatl names for > social structures, where there are also many calques. I think I mentioned > this on the Nahuat-l list when it came out, but since it relates to the > Tlalocan article I'll provide the URL again: > http://www.dinpo.ugto.mx/acta/publicaciones/v18-esp/actav18-esp.htm > > Comments are welcome, preferably off-list, unless there is something that > you feel is a worthy topic for group discussion. > > Saludos, > > David > > * Smith-Stark, Thomas C., “Mesoamerican calques,” in Investigaciones > lingüísticas en Mesoamérica, Carolyn J. MacKay and Verónica Vázquez, > editors, Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas, Universidad > Nacional Autónoma de México, 1994, pp. 15-50. Some of the data presented in > the latter article also appears in: Campbell, Lyle; Kaufman, Terrence; > Thomas C. Smith-Stark, “Meso-America as a linguistic area,” in Language > (Linguistic Society of America), vol. 62, no. 3, September 1986, pp. > 530-570. > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jan 1 19:01:33 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 14:01:33 -0500 Subject: Happy New Year... Message-ID: ----- Forwarded message from Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com ----- Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 11:05:46 +0000 From: Ian Mursell Reply-To: Ian Mursell Subject: [Nahuat-l] Happy New Year... To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org ?I'm Japanese. Please teach me Nahuatl. How to write in Nahuatl is not understood and it embarrasses it though I want to write the sentence of "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!". I?m keen to know.. Please correct the sentence that I wrote. The original text : Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! In Spanish : ?Feliz Navidad y pr?spero a?o nuevo! My sentence : Kuali Tlakatilisiluitl iuan tlasempaktiani yankuik xiuitl! Hello, Ian, and happy new year! This request is interesting as it brings up a couple of questions. As I'm not a native speaker of Nahuatl, I can't say for sure what is possible in today's language for such a "command". Maybe one of the list members who is currently working with native speakers could comment. However, my "instinctual" feeling about such a wish for "classical" Nahuatl would be that, unlike a wish in English or Spanish, one would use a verb in the optative mood along with an introductory particle in the form of /ma:/ or /tla:/. For "Merry Christmas!" I would go with "Ma: xiccemilhuiti cualli tla:catiliztli" employing the verb cemilhuitia 'to spend a whole day (ilhuitl)'. Regarding "pr?spero a?o nuevo!" my question would be of a semantic nature. Can a *year* be *prosperous*? Or can only people be prosperous? I would go with the latter, again using a verb in the optative mood: "Ma: xonmocuilto:no i:pan yancuic xihuitl!" In all: "Ma: xiccemilhuiti cualli tla:catiliztli i:huan ma xonmocuilto:no i:pan yancuic xihuitl!" Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Sat Jan 2 17:40:23 2010 From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 17:40:23 +0000 Subject: Happy New Year... In-Reply-To: <20100101140133.1bohq4m0owkos4g8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Cheers, Michael, thank you so much for taking the trouble to help on this. I know it's a bit of a silly question - it goes without saying that I'm not expecting Christmas to be 'translated' into N?huatl! - but it was a genuine enquiry from a student, and, I think, in its way intriguing... Best, Ian > ----- Forwarded message from Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com ----- > Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 11:05:46 +0000 > From: Ian Mursell > Reply-To: Ian Mursell > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Happy New Year... > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > ?I'm Japanese. Please teach me Nahuatl. > How to write in Nahuatl is not understood and it embarrasses it though I > want to write the sentence of > "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!". I?m keen to know.. Please correct > the sentence that I wrote. > > > The original text : Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! > In Spanish : ?Feliz Navidad y pr?spero a?o nuevo! > > My sentence : Kuali Tlakatilisiluitl iuan tlasempaktiani yankuik > xiuitl! > > > Hello, Ian, and happy new year! > > This request is interesting as it brings up a couple of questions. > > As I'm not a native speaker of Nahuatl, I can't say for sure what is > possible in today's language for such a "command". Maybe one of the > list members who is currently working with native speakers could > comment. > > However, my "instinctual" feeling about such a wish for "classical" > Nahuatl would be that, unlike a wish in English or Spanish, one would > use a verb in the optative mood along with an introductory particle in > the form of /ma:/ or /tla:/. > > For "Merry Christmas!" I would go with "Ma: xiccemilhuiti cualli > tla:catiliztli" > > employing the verb cemilhuitia 'to spend a whole day (ilhuitl)'. > > > Regarding "pr?spero a?o nuevo!" my question would be of a semantic > nature. Can a *year* be *prosperous*? Or can only people be prosperous? > I would go with the latter, again using a verb in the optative mood: > > "Ma: xonmocuilto:no i:pan yancuic xihuitl!" > > > In all: > > "Ma: xiccemilhuiti cualli tla:catiliztli i:huan ma xonmocuilto:no i:pan > yancuic xihuitl!" > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From robc at csufresno.edu Mon Jan 4 18:46:00 2010 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert Comegys) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:46:00 -0800 Subject: Alphabetic Nahuatl script, review article? resources? Message-ID: Hi, I am interested in the name of the type(s) of alphabetic scripts used by the indigenous in the XVI and XVII centuries. I gather that they are usually Humanist hand. Is there a good review article on early Spanish (Mexican) colonial paleography? Does someone have a paleography bibliography from a class? I have Barber and Beradan The Emperor's Mirror. I am trying to identify a manuscript based mostly on paleography. Has anyone done this before? I am grateful for any practical help the listers can give. Best regards, John Comegys _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jan 4 19:43:23 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 13:43:23 -0600 Subject: Alphabetic Nahuatl script, review article? resources? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John: A few years ago I filled in for a colleague who was in sabbatical, and taught a paleography class in the History Department at the University of Guanajuato. I'm pasting the bibliography I put together at the end of this message. It has two parts, one on paleography per se and another on the Castilian language. Call numbers are from the University of Guanajuato library system. I hope this helps. All the best, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Robert Comegys Enviado el: lunes, 04 de enero de 2010 12:46 p.m. Para: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Alphabetic Nahuatl script, review article? resources? Hi, I am interested in the name of the type(s) of alphabetic scripts used by the indigenous in the XVI and XVII centuries. I gather that they are usually Humanist hand. Is there a good review article on early Spanish (Mexican) colonial paleography? Does someone have a paleography bibliography from a class? I have Barber and Beradan The Emperor's Mirror. I am trying to identify a manuscript based mostly on paleography. Has anyone done this before? I am grateful for any practical help the listers can give. Best regards, John Comegys _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl **************************************************************** 1. Manuales de paleograf?a y estudios relacionados Bribiesca Sumano, Mar?a Elena, Antolog?a de paleograf?a y diplom?tica, 2 vols., Toluca, Universidad Aut?noma del Estado de M?xico, 1991. Bribiesca Sumano, Mar?a Elena, Introducci?n a la paleograf?a, 3a. reimpresi?n, M?xico, Archivo General de la Naci?n, 1981. G515 417.7 ARC Colomera y Rodr?guez, Venancio, Paleograf?a castellana, o sea, colecci?n de documentos aut?nticos para comprender con perfecci?n todas las formas de letras manuscritas que se usaron en los siglos XII, XIII, XIV, XV y XVI, alfabetos may?sculas y min?sculas, cifras, signos, abreviaturas, tabla num?rica y un vocabulario del castellano antiguo, con la traducci?n correspondiente en las p?ginas inmediatas, Valladolid, Imprenta de P. de la Llana, 1862. Dahl, Sven, Historia del libro, Alberto Adell, traductor, M?xico, Consejo Nacional para la Cultura y las Artes/Alianza Editorial, 1991. "Tabla de equivalencias de las monedas y medidas mencionadas en los documentos", en Descripciones econ?micas generales de Nueva Espa?a, 1784-1817, Enrique Florescano e Isabel Gil, compiladores, Seminario de Historia Econ?mica, Departamento de Investigaciones Hist?ricas, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 1973. Garc?a Mart?nez, Bernardo, ?Paleograf?a y documentos coloniales, estudiando historia?, en Arqueolog?a Mexicana (Editorial Ra?ces/Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia), vol. 12, no. 70, nov.-dic. 2004, pp. 50-53. Hidalgo Brinquis, Mar?a Carmen, ?Estudio de las filigranas?, en Pintura del gobernador, alcaldes y regidores de M?xico, ?C?dice Osuna?, Vicenta Cort?s Alonso, editora, Madrid, Ministerio de Educaci?n y Ciencia, Direcci?n General de Archivos y Bibliotecas, 1976, anexo 1. Millares Carlo, Agust?n; Mantec?n, Jos? Ignacio, ?lbum de paleograf?a hispanoamericana de los siglos XVI y XVII, 3 vols., M?xico, Editorial Fournier/Instituto Panamericano de Geograf?a e Historia, 1955. G405 417.7 MIL Millares Carlo, Agust?n; Ruiz Asencio, Jos? Manuel, Tratado de paleograf?a espa?ola, Madrid, Espasa Calpe, 1983. D300 G401 461.7 MIL Normas para la transcripci?n de documentos hist?ricos, M?xico, Archivo General de la Naci?n, 1979. D300 025.02 ARC Normas para la transcripci?n de documentos y correcci?n de originales para su edici?n, M?xico, Archivo General de la Naci?n, 1981. N??ez Contreras, Luis, Manual de paleograf?a, fundamentos e historia de la escritura latina hasta el siglo VIII, Madrid, Ediciones C?tedra, 1994. G405 417.7 NU? P?rez Fern?ndez del Castillo, Bernardo, Historia de la escriban?a en la Nueva Espa?a y del notoriado en M?xico, 2a. ed., M?xico, Colegio de Notarios del Distrito Federal/Editorial Porr?a, 1988. D300 G405 347.72016 PER 1988 Pezzat Arzave, Delia, Elementos de paleograf?a novohispana, M?xico, Facultad de Filosof?a y Letras, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1990. G405 417.7 PEZ Ram?rez Montes, Mina, Manuscritos novohispanos, ejercicios de lectura, M?xico, Instituto de Investigaciones Est?ticas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1990. G405 091.98 RAM S?nchez Bueno de Bonfil, Mar?a Cristina, El papel del papel en la Nueva Espa?a, M?xico, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 1993. Silva Prada, Natalia, Manual de paleograf?a y diplom?tica hispanoamericana, siglos XVI, XVII y XVIII, M?xico, Unidad Iztapalapa, Universidad Aut?noma Metropolitana, 2001. G405 417.7 SIL "Tabla de equivalencias de las monedas y medidas mencionadas en los documentos", en Descripciones econ?micas generales de Nueva Espa?a, 1784-1817, Enrique Florescano e Isabel Gil, compiladores, Seminario de Historia Econ?mica, Departamento de Investigaciones Hist?ricas, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 1973, pp. 265-270. Villasana Haggard, J.; McLean, Malcolm Dallas, Handbook for translators of Spanish historical documents, Austin, Archives Collections, The University of Texas, 1941. 2. Lengua castellana Alarcos Llorach, Emilio, Gram?tica de la lengua espa?ola, 1a. reimpresi?n de la 1a. ed., Madrid, Real Academia Espa?ola/Editorial Espasa Calpe, 1999. Arias ?lvarez, Beatriz, El espa?ol de M?xico en el siglo XVI (estudio filol?gico de quince documentos), M?xico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1997. Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebasti?n, ?Tesoro de la lengua castellana, o espa?ola?, facs?mil de la ed. de 1611, en Lexicograf?a espa?ola peninsular, diccionarios cl?sicos, ed. digital, Pedro ?lvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Cobarruvias Orozco, Sebasti?n, Tesoro de la lengua castellana o espa?ola, Madrid/M?xico, Ediciones Turner/Ediciones Turnermex, 1984. Company Company, Concepci?n, Documentos ling??sticos de la Nueva Espa?a, Altiplano Central, M?xico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1994. Corominas, Joan; Pascual, Jos? A., Diccionario cr?tico etimol?gico castellano e hisp?nico, 1a. reimpresi?n de la 1a. ed., 6 vols., Madrid, Editorial Gredos, 1983-1985. ?Diccionario de la lengua castellana, en que se explica el verdadero sentido de las voces, su naturaleza y calidad, con las phrases o modos de hablar, los proverbios o refranes, y otras cosas convenientes al uso de la lengua?, facs?mil de la ed. de 1726-1739, 6 vols., en Lexicograf?a espa?ola peninsular, diccionarios cl?sicos, ed. digital, Pedro ?lvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Diccionario de la lengua espa?ola, reimpresi?n de la 21a. ed., 2 vols., Madrid, Real Academia Espa?ola/Editorial Espasa Calpe, 1999. Dom?nguez, Ram?n Joaqu?n, ?Diccionario nacional, o gran diccionario cl?sico de la lengua espa?ola, el m?s completo de los l?xicos publicados hasta el d?a?, facs?mil de la ed. de 1847, en Lexicograf?a espa?ola peninsular, diccionarios cl?sicos, ed. digital, Pedro ?lvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Garc?a-Pelayo y Gross, Ram?n; Garc?a-Pelayo y Gross, Fernando; Durand, Micheline, Larousse diccionario pr?ctico conjugaci?n, 43a. reimpresi?n de la 1a. ed., Barcelona/M?xico/Par?s/Buenos Aires, Larousse 1996. Guzm?n Betancourt, Ignacio, ?La lengua, ?compa?era del imperio? Destino de un ?presagio? nebrisense en la Nueva Espa?a?, en Memoria del Coloquio La Obra de Antonio de Nebrija y su Recepci?n en la Nueva Espa?a, quince estudios nebrisenses (1492-1992), Ignacio Guzm?n Betancourt y Er?ndira Nansen D?az, editores, M?xico, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 1997, pp. 23-37. Lope Blanch, Juan M., Investigaciones sobre dialectolog?a mexicana, 2a. ed., M?xico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1990. G412 G425 467.972 LOP Mart?nez Pe?aloza, Mar?a Teresa, Vocabulario de t?rminos en documentos hist?ricos, 2a. reimpresi?n de la 1a. ed., M?xico, Archivo General de la Naci?n, 1984. Mart?nez Rivera, Javier, ?La influencia de las lenguas ind?genas en el espa?ol de M?xico en el siglo XVI a trav?s de un documento?, en Humanidades, Anuario del Instituto de Investigaciones Human?sticas (Universidad Iberoamericana), a?o 1976, no. 4, 1976, pp. 47-57. Nebrija, Elio Antonio de, ?Vocabulario espa?ol-latino?, facs?mil de la ed. de 1495, en Lexicograf?a espa?ola peninsular, diccionarios cl?sicos, ed. digital, Pedro ?lvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. ?Nuevo diccionario de la lengua castellana que comprende la ?ltima edici?n ?ntegra, muy rectificada y mejorada, del publicado por la Academia Espa?ola, y unas veinte y seis mil voces, acepciones, frases y locuciones, entre ellas muchas americanas, a?adidas por don Vicente Salv??, facs?mil de la ed. de 1847, en Lexicograf?a espa?ola peninsular, diccionarios cl?sicos, ed. digital, Pedro ?lvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. Ortograf?a de la lengua espa?ola, Madrid, Real Academia Espa?ola/Editorial Espasa Calpe, 1999. Santamar?a, Francisco J., Diccionario de mejicanismos, razonado; comprobado con citas de autoridades; comparado con el de americanismos y con los vocabularios provinciales de los m?s distinguidos diccionaristas hispanamericanos, 15a. ed., M?xico, Editorial Porr?a, 1992. D300 G405 G425 467.97203 SAN 1992 Terreros y Pando, Esteban, ?Diccionario castellano con las voces de ciencias y artes y sus correspondientes en las tres lenguas, francesa, latina e italiana?, facs?mil de la ed. de 1786-1788, 3 vols., en Lexicograf?a espa?ola peninsular, diccionarios cl?sicos, ed. digital, Pedro ?lvarez de Miranda, compilador, Madrid, Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera/Mapfre Mutualidad/Digibis, 1998. V?zquez R., Guillermina, ?Glosario de arca?smos?, en Juan de Torquemada, Monarqu?a indiana, de los veinte y un libros rituales y monarqu?a indiana, con el origen y guerras de los indios occidentales, de sus poblazones, descubrimiento, conquista, conversi?n y otras cosas maravillosas de la mesma tierra, vol. 7, Miguel Le?n-Portilla, coordinador, M?xico, Instituto de Investigaciones Hist?ricas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1983. Vocabulario arquitect?nico ilustrado, 3a. ed., Vicente Medel Mart?nez, director, M?xico, Secretar?a de Asentamientos Humanos y Obras P?blicas, 1980. Willbern, Glen D., Elementos del vocabulario castellano del siglo trece, M?xico, Editorial Jus, 1953. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jbierhorst at aol.com Thu Jan 7 10:59:02 2010 From: jbierhorst at aol.com (jbierhorst at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:59:02 EST Subject: New Nahuatl Website Message-ID: In December 2009 the University of Texas Libraries and the University of Texas Press launched a website to go with the publication of Ballads of the Lords of New Spain: The Codex Romances de los Senores de la Nueva Espana (June 2009). The address is www.utdigital.org or simply utdi.org, and it is free to the public. The website has the Ballads in it entirety, with these additional features: a photofacsimile of the manuscript folio by folio, a normative transcription (searchable), audio of the drum cadences, images from related codices, a map showing the "geography" of the Romances, and "pop-ups" from the Commentary so that these may be read together with the English translation. Also included: Cantares Mexicanos: Songs of the Aztecs in its entirety (with corrections), A Nahuatl-English Dictionary and Concordance to the Cantares Mexicanos (with corrections) -- courtesy of Stanford University Press -- an essay on corpus linguistics as it relates to the Romances/Cantares, and links to other Nahuatl websites. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ela95126 at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 19:05:21 2010 From: ela95126 at gmail.com (Elaine Anderson) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:05:21 -0600 Subject: simple basic grammar question - classical Nahuatl Message-ID: Piyalli. When a[tl] is possessed, it becomes, for example, "iauh", his water. What happens when the possession is modified with an embed? For example - If I wanted to render the English phrase "my flowery water" in Nahuatl, would it become: *noxochia? or *noxochiauh? Is there a rule someone can articulate for this? Tlazohcamati! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jan 12 15:15:18 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:15:18 -0500 Subject: simple basic grammar question - classical Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <1b7d44701001111105r385e8452r432502f62d35c304@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Quoting Elaine Anderson : > Piyalli. > > When a[tl] is possessed, it becomes, for example, "iauh", his water. What > happens when the possession is modified with an embed? For example - > If I wanted to render the English phrase "my flowery water" in Nahuatl, > would it become: > *noxochia? or *noxochiauh? > Is there a rule someone can articulate for this? > > Tlazohcamati! > Saludos, Elaine, "noxochiauh" is correct. The possessed noun -auh 'water' continues to function as a possessed noun, whether it is preceded by an embedded noun or not. This help? Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Jan 13 15:25:13 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:25:13 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl in public schools today Message-ID: Our good friend Ian Mursell has asked me if Nahuatl is being taught today in Mexican public schools. I believe that it is, having seen some textbooks for kids, and believe that I know of at least one school, but can anyone else on the list add to this? I just came back from a two-week tour of archaeological sites in Mexico and saw one school in the Yucatan proudly announcing that it was bi-lingual in Spanish and Maya. -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Thu Jan 14 00:20:56 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:20:56 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl in public schools today In-Reply-To: <629359.34932.qm@web86702.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Our list focuses on things Nahua. For the Maya, join aztlan at lists.famsi.org, our sister list. It deals with all pre-columbian cultures, but has a distinct emphasis on things Maya. > Please, is it allowed to ask quickly about Mayan languages? > Is there an email group or forum for Mayan languages? > How much are the Mayan languages comprehensible to each other's speakers? > Which Mayan language is the name Chicxulub in, and please what does the > name mean? > > --- On Wed, 13/1/10, John F. Schwaller wrote: >> ...? I just came back from a two-week tour of archaeological sites in >> Mexico >> and saw one school in the Yucatan proudly announcing that it was >> bi-lingual in Spanish and Maya. > > -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ipedrozar at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 22:21:35 2010 From: ipedrozar at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Iv=E1n_Pedroza?=) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:21:35 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl in public schools today In-Reply-To: <4B4DE5D9.6020608@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: I believe that indigenous languages have been taught broadly since Vasconcelos's educational missions. I have seen nahuatl basic textbooks for children dating from L?zaro C?rdenas presidency. The Direcci?n General de Educaci?n Ind?gena (DGEI) of the SEP is in charge of bilingual and bicultural education in the primary level. Nahuatl is taught in bilingual and bicultural schools in Tlaxcala, Puebla, Veracruz, Guerrero, Estado de M?xico, Distrito Federal, Hidalgo, San Luis Potos? and Oaxaca. I ignore if these schools exist in the small native nahuatl speaking communities in Colima, Jalisco, Michoacan, Chiapas, Tabasco, Quer?taro and Durango (mexicanero). The main statistics about bilingual-bicultural education can be found here: http://basica.sep.gob.mx/dgei/pdf/inicio/informacion/estadisticasDGEI.pdf Besides, nahuatl is taught in the public preparatorias that belong to the DF Government, and I there are similar special programmes in the Intercultural Universities in Veracruz and Puebla. I hope you find this useful. -- Iv?n Pedroza 2010/1/13 John F. Schwaller > > Our good friend Ian Mursell has asked me if Nahuatl is being taught > today in Mexican public schools. I believe that it is, having seen some > textbooks for kids, and believe that I know of at least one school, but > can anyone else on the list add to this? > > I just came back from a two-week tour of archaeological sites in Mexico > and saw one school in the Yucatan proudly announcing that it was > bi-lingual in Spanish and Maya. > > > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tlaloc at umd.edu Thu Jan 14 04:54:08 2010 From: tlaloc at umd.edu (John B Carlson) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:54:08 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl words for "crazy" / "loco" Message-ID: 13 Jan 2010 Fellow Nahuatl Listeros, A friend from Nayarit asked me this question last year. In Classical Nahuatl... or in some modern Nahua language... what is the general word for "crazy" or "loco" in common speech? I'm talking about someone jokingly saying that someone is crazy or "nuts." There must be a number of expressions. If we wanted to go deeper, then I expect that it would be endless. If we were really asking about words for "insane" -- really clinically insane -- then we would get into all of the issues of how different cultures deal with mental illness and strange behavior. What is strange in one culture or context might or might not be in another. That topic could easily "morph" into a dissertation... To keep it simple, are there a few good Nahuatl terms for joking that someone is crazy? nutty? goofy? I think you know what I mean. Thanks in advance, John Carlson PS: I confess I have NOT done my homework on this. I haven't gone to any of the many dictionaries on my shelf. I figured that some of my crazy Nahuatlato colleagues might just have a quick answer or two. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Thu Jan 14 19:42:44 2010 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:42:44 +0100 Subject: 'Crazy' and the like in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi John, Xolopi'tli (~ xolopihtli) 'idiot, fool' covers the ground quite nicely. My students enjoy calling each other that, at least. You can find the term in Frances Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary. For 'crazy' there's a (Zacapoaxtla) dialect term cua:(yo:l)quepi. Then there's Classical Nahuatl i:xtepetla for someone stupid, an ignoramus. Classical te:huetzqui:ti' is 'buffoon, joker'. Hope that helps. Best, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gordon Whittaker Professor Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rbenavides05 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 14 19:26:57 2010 From: rbenavides05 at hotmail.com (Rafael Benavides) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:26:57 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl words for "crazy" / "loco" (John B Carlson) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Carlson, A lot of the indigenous professors at IDIEZ in Zacatecas and I tease each other by saying "tihuihuiti" or "tihuihuitic." Most of them are speakers of eastern (Huastecan) Nahuatl from Veracruz and we've all understood the phrase as either "you are crazy" or "you have already turned crazy," but in a joking and teasing manner, obviously. I hope that helps! Rafael Benavides _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Thu Jan 14 22:22:26 2010 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:22:26 +0000 Subject: Nahuatl in public schools today In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- On Thu, 14/1/10, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Our list focuses on things Nahua. > For the Maya, join aztlan at lists.famsi.org, our sister list.? It deals with > all pre-columbian cultures, but has a distinct emphasis on things Maya. Thanks. Please where is the page with the list of FAMSI email groups, and the page where I can join aztlan at lists.famsi.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 18:17:34 2010 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:17:34 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 162, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In Hueyapan Nahuatl the words are: xipotetl - "fool/stupid person" kwekwetl - "crazy/exaggerated/manic/out of line person" kwananakatl - "sluggish/forgetful/distraught/drugged person" Magnus > 1. 'Crazy' and the like in Nahuatl (Gordon Whittaker) > 2. Nahuatl words for "crazy" / "loco" (John B Carlson) > (Rafael Benavides) > 3. Re: Nahuatl in public schools today (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Gordon Whittaker" > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:42:44 +0100 (CET) > Subject: [Nahuat-l] 'Crazy' and the like in Nahuatl > Hi John, > > Xolopi'tli (~ xolopihtli) 'idiot, fool' covers the ground quite nicely. My > students enjoy calling each other that, at least. You can find the term in > Frances Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary. For 'crazy' there's a > (Zacapoaxtla) dialect term cua:(yo:l)quepi. Then there's Classical Nahuatl > i:xtepetla for someone stupid, an ignoramus. Classical te:huetzqui:ti' is > 'buffoon, joker'. > > Hope that helps. > > Best, > Gordon > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at mac.com Sat Jan 16 18:04:08 2010 From: idiez at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:04:08 -0600 Subject: FLAS for Summer Nahuatl in Zacatecas Message-ID: Piyali tlamachtianih huan momachtianih, I would like to announce that beginning this year, FLAS funding for our Nahuatl summer intensive course is available to US citizen undergraduates as well as graduate students. You may apply directly through your home institution or to Jean Silk (jean.silk at yale.edu) when you apply for admission to the summer program. I have included the announcement for the summer program below. Please don?t hesitate to contact me with questions regarding the course. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com Intensive Nahuatl Language and Culture Summer 2010 Yale?s Council on Latin American and Iberian Studies coordinates an intensive summer Nahuatl course through Yale Summer Sessions as NHTL 125. The course offers the opportunity to study at beginning, intermediate, or advanced levels of Classical and Modern Nahuatl at the Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas. Six weeks of class will be held in Zacatecas from June 21 to July 30, 2010 with an optional week in the village of Tepecxitla, Veracruz, from August 1 to August 6. The course seeks to: 1. develop students? oral comprehension, speaking, reading, writing and knowledge of language structure, as well as their cultural wisdom and sensibility, in order to facilitate their ability to communicate effectively, correctly and creatively in everyday situations; 2. provide students with instruments and experiences that demonstrate the continuity between past and present Nahua culture, through the study of colonial and modern texts, conversation with native speakers, and an optional residency in a Nahua community; 3. penetrate into the historical, economic, political, social and cultural aspects of Nahua civilization; and 4. prepare students to take university level humanities courses taught in Nahuatl alongside native speakers. Beginning students will have class five hours per day, Monday through Friday: two hours of Modern Nahuatl immersion and introductory grammar with native speaking instructors; two hours of Classical Nahuatl taught by John Sullivan; and an additional hour of individual work on a research project of the student?s choice with a native speaking tutor. Intermediate students will study specific topics drawn from Older and Modern sources, using Nahuatl as the sole language of class discussion, and continue to work with individual tutors. Advanced students will design and implement a research project in collaboration with the native speaking tutors, and will write a short paper in Modern Nahuatl. Six week course in Zacatecas beginning Monday June 21 and ending Friday July 30. Full class attendance is required. Students who are absent for reasons other than illness will be asked to withdraw from the Institute. Students may elect to spend an optional seventh week in the village of Tepecxitla, Veracruz, from August 1 through Friday, August 6. They will reside with an indigenous family and participate in the Tlatlacualtiah ceremony. A decision regarding the viability of this homestay option will be made two months prior to the beginning of the program after the pertinent regional security issues have been evaluated. This visit, however, will not be under CLAIS auspices, and those students who wish to participate must cover the additional costs (see below). Tentative course costs: 1. Tuition for three credits, $4,000 2. Room for six weeks housing at the Hostal Villa Colonial in Zacatecas (one or two adults per room): a) studio with private bath and kitchenette, $660 (there are few of these available); b) studio with private bath and shared kitchen, $578; c) studio with shared bath and kitchen, $495. 3. Food for six weeks in Zacatecas: between $400 (preparing your own food) and $600 (eating out). Tuition is payable to Yale; all other costs including travel between the United States and Mexico are paid by the student directly to the provider. 4. (Optional) Students who travel to the village of Tepecxitla at the end of the course will pay $600 for transportation, room and board, and financing of the Chicomexochitl ceremony. Course materials: All students must have personal copies of the following texts: Karttunen, Francis. 1983. An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl. Texas Linguistics Series. Austin: University of Texas Press. $26.95 @ amazon. com Lockhart, James. 2001. Nahuatl as Written. Lessons in Older Written Nahuatl, with Copious Examples and Texts. Stanford: Stanford University Press. $25.43 @ amazon.com Molina, Alonso de. 1977(1555-1571). Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y mexicana y castellana. Colecci?n ?Biblioteca Porr?a? 44. M?xico: Porr?a. Students may purchase this book directly from Editoria Porr?a or through IDIEZ at a cost of approximately $25. Two weeks before class begins students will be sent, free of charge, electronic copies of the exercise manuals, grammar charts, vocabulary lists and manuscripts which will be studied. Funding availability: CLAIS and its partners make every effort to ensure that financial constraints are not an obstacle for participating in the Summer Nahuatl Language program. Financial aid is available to undergraduate and graduate students in the form of FLAS fellowships through your own institution or CLAIS at Yale. Deadline for CLAIS FLAS applications is February 26, 2010. For more information, contact Jean Silk at jean.silk at yale.edu or by phone at 203/432-3420 or John Sullivan at idiez at me.com or by phone at +52 (492) 925-3415. To Register for the course, please contact Jean Silk, Assistant Chair, Council on Latin American and Iberian Studies, (jean.silk at yale.edu / 203/432-3420). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Sat Jan 16 23:30:36 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 00:30:36 +0100 Subject: El Saltillo Message-ID: El Saltillo Launey used in his works for the saltillo "l'accent circonflexe" on the vocal end. And sometimes he used "l'accent grave" when he referred to the saltillo itself. His work was mostly based on that of Carochi. Now I see everywhere in texts the notation of the saltillo as a -h. Is the use of the -h a consensus or a must, or is the use of both, the accent and the -h acceptable nowadays? Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Sun Jan 17 13:53:36 2010 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 08:53:36 -0500 Subject: -h for saltillo Message-ID: There is precedent for using orthographic -h for saltillo from the 16th-century, although it was not used systematically. The convention was adopted by J. Richard Andrews, who does use it systematically, and I carried it on in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl. My preference for -h was/is two-fold. First, I wanted to avoid proliferation of conventions and for the dictionary to be compatible with the Andrews grammar. Second, what we call "saltillo" functions as a consonant in Nahuatl, no matter whether its phonetic realization is a glottal stop (in some central dialects) or as an aspiration that would be represented as phonetic [h] (not to be confused with Spanish orthographic -h, which-- thanks to historical sound change--has no phonetic realization at all). When an accent mark over a vowel is used to indicate that that vowel is followed by saltillo, it implies that saltillo is a quality of the vowel rather than a consonant following the vowel. It is true that the saltillo does affect the quality of the preceding vowel, but from the point of view of the systematic phonology of Nahuatl, it is crucial to understand that syllables that end in saltillo function like syllables that end in the other consonants of Nahuatl and not like open syllables. Understanding and accepting the phonological contrast of open and closed syllables (and hence, stems that end in vowels versus stems that end in consonants) makes sense of Nahuatl morphology, which otherwise has the appearance of being dauntingly arbitrary. Frances Karttunen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr Sun Jan 17 14:40:00 2010 From: budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:40:00 +0100 Subject: El Saltillo Message-ID: 28 niv?se an CCXVIII (le 17 janvier 2010 d. c.-d. c. g.), 15 h 28 : 11,2 ?C... ----- Original Message ----- From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be To: Nahuatl List Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 12:30 AM Subject: [Nahuat-l] El Saltillo > El Saltillo > Launey used in his works for the saltillo "l'accent circonflexe" on the vocal end. > And sometimes he used "l'accent grave" when he referred to the saltillo itself. /accent circonflexe/ ? ^ ? a the end of a word, /accent grave/ ? ` ? in the middle : ? tl?t?qu? ?, ? kings ?, ? /'/ ? and ? [?] ? as itself, ? /La'to'ke'/ ? and ? [tla?to?ke?] ?. > His work was mostly based on that of Carochi. He is right. > Now I see everywhere in texts the notation of the saltillo as a -h. They are wrong. > Is the use of the -h a consensus Le consensus est la science des ?nes. > or a must, or is the use of both, the accent and the -h acceptable nowadays? > Lahun Ik 62 > Baert Georges > Flanders Fields Budelberger, Richard. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jan 17 15:41:40 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 10:41:40 -0500 Subject: -h for saltillo In-Reply-To: <53BFAEA6-11C6-417D-8BE2-57C279FE78A2@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Thank you, Dr. Karttunen, for this very nice elucidation. Best regards, Michael Quoting Frances Karttunen : > There is precedent for using orthographic -h for saltillo from the > 16th-century, although it was not used systematically. The > convention was adopted by J. Richard Andrews, who does use it > systematically, and I carried it on in An Analytical Dictionary of > Nahuatl. > > My preference for -h was/is two-fold. First, I wanted to avoid > proliferation of conventions and for the dictionary to be compatible > with the Andrews grammar. > > Second, what we call "saltillo" functions as a consonant in Nahuatl, > no matter whether its phonetic realization is a glottal stop (in some > central dialects) or as an aspiration that would be represented as > phonetic [h] (not to be confused with Spanish orthographic -h, > which-- thanks to historical sound change--has no phonetic > realization at all). > > When an accent mark over a vowel is used to indicate that that vowel > is followed by saltillo, it implies that saltillo is a quality of the > vowel rather than a consonant following the vowel. It is true that > the saltillo does affect the quality of the preceding vowel, but from > the point of view of the systematic phonology of Nahuatl, it is > crucial to understand that syllables that end in saltillo function > like syllables that end in the other consonants of Nahuatl and not > like open syllables. > > Understanding and accepting the phonological contrast of open and > closed syllables (and hence, stems that end in vowels versus stems > that end in consonants) makes sense of Nahuatl morphology, which > otherwise has the appearance of being dauntingly arbitrary. > > Frances Karttunen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Sun Jan 17 06:47:08 2010 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 22:47:08 -0800 Subject: date of 1 Atlacahualo Message-ID: Listeros, Broda, Hassig and others have used February 12 (Gregorian) as 1 Atlacahualo.? I?ve also seen February 13 used.? Can anyone give me the citation for this latter date as 1 Atlacahualo? Thanks, Tom Grigsby G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria GSM: 359 0899 784 081 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jan 17 20:50:36 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:50:36 -0600 Subject: Ense=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1anza_del_n=E1huatl_en_la_ciudad_de_M=E9xico?= Message-ID: In response to a recent query, here is an article from two years ago on a project to teach Nahuatl in Mexico City. This is just one of many efforts to keep indigenous languages alive and healthy in a generally adverse climate. http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2008/01/14/index.php?section=cultura&article?5n 1cul Here's a study about that adverse climate, from around the same time as the article: http://www.inali.gob.mx/pdf/PINALI-2008-2012.pdf David Wright Guanajuato, Gto. M?xico _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jan 17 21:00:21 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:00:21 -0600 Subject: Semasiograf=?iso-8859-1?Q?=EDa_o_glotograf=EDa_en_la_Piedra_de_T=EDzoc_?= y la Piedra del ex Arzobispado Message-ID: Muy estimados listeros: Los textos pict?ricos del centro de M?xico (Altiplano Central, Costa del Golfo y Oaxaca) que fueron escritos/pintados/esculpidos durante la ?poca Prehisp?nica parecen tener un porcentaje mayor de signos semasiogr?ficos (que expresan ideas, sin vincularse necesariamente con las estructuras de una lengua espec?fica) que los textos pict?ricos ejecutados despu?s de la Conquista, donde vemos un uso mayor de la glotograf?a (expresando estructuras ling??sticas como palabras, morfemas, s?labas o fonemas), aunque en ambos periodos se trata de un sistema mixto que combina signos de ambas categor?as. Hoy se discute si los textos con una relativa abundancia de signos glotogr?ficos (especialmente los del Acolhuacan de mediados del siglo XVI) reflejan o no la situaci?n prehisp?nica. En un intento de contribuir a la resoluci?n de este problema, hice un an?lisis de todos los signos topon?micos esculpidos en la Piedra de T?zoc y la Piedra del ex Arzobispado, con el objetivo de determinar su naturaleza semasiogr?fica o glotogr?fica. Los resultados acaban de se publicados. Puedo enviar una versi?n de mi art?culo en formato .pdf a quien me lo solicite, a la direcci?n dcwright at prodigy.net.mx. Saludos cordiales, David Wright _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mikelffgg at yahoo.com Mon Jan 18 16:05:54 2010 From: mikelffgg at yahoo.com (Mikel Fernandez) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 08:05:54 -0800 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: I read in an article: ?De hecho ?cuenta- hace 15 d?as falleci? el nahuatlato m?s importante de Milpa Alta, quien hab?a heredado una serie de historias, relatos y anecdotarios. El era el ?ltimo que se lo sab?a todo en n?huatl.? ? ? http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2008/01/14/index.php?section=cultura&article=a05n1cul ? ? Does anyone know who could be this nahuatlato? and if there is any book about? their knowledge? ? The death was in the las days of 2007. ? ? Thanks Mikel ____________________________________________________________________________________ ?Obt?n la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=e1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jan 18 16:30:12 2010 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:30:12 -0500 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: I read in an article: ?De hecho ?cuenta- hace 15 d?as falleci? el nahuatlato m?s importante de Milpa Alta, quien hab?a heredado una serie de historias, relatos y anecdotarios. El era el ?ltimo que se lo sab?a todo en n?huatl.? http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2008/01/14/index.php? section=cultura&article=a05n1cul Does anyone know who could be this nahuatlato and if there is any book about their knowledge? The death was in the las days of 2007. Could this be Carlos Lopez Avila, author of Malacachtepec Momoxco: Historia legendaria de Milpa Alta (1982)? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cdberry at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 22:48:28 2010 From: cdberry at gmail.com (Craig Berry) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:48:28 -0800 Subject: Reference on alignment of solar and ritual calendars? Message-ID: Can anyone recommend a good source (preferably on the web) for information on how the solar calendar of 18 20-day periods plus the nemontemi, and the ritual calendar of 260 days, align? I'm interested in understanding when the year-bearer day occurs -- the "new year" date, so to speak. Thanks in advance! -- Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/ "Lots of things in the universe don?t solve any problems, and nevertheless exist." -- Sean Carroll _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Mon Jan 18 19:59:39 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:59:39 +0100 Subject: El Saltillo Message-ID: Dear one's, I fully understand the argumentation of Lady Frances Karttunen contrasting open and closed syllables and the use of the ?h as the saltillo and as consonant, thanks anyway. Like you said the saltillo is more than a morphogram, a sign to close a syllable,it is a phonogram too with a special sound. But what about the following verbs and their Base 2 (verbal stem of the preteritum, el pretirito): ?cihui, ?cihui > iciuh. C?hua, c?hua > c?uh. Pal?huia, pal?huia > pal?huih. P?hua, p?hua > p?uh. Ch?hua, ch?hua >chiuh. ?hua, ?hua > ?uh. C?hua, c?hua > c?uh. These are all verbs by which the end letters change of place in Base 2. The ending ?h, is that a saltillo, or is it just the letter ?h? And if it is just a letter ?h, what is than the difference between the two? Or is there no difference? Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields. PS. My excuses to the moderator. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Jan 19 04:39:21 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:39:21 -0600 Subject: El Saltillo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Baert, All of your examples except "palehuia" are class 2 verbs ending in hu- /w/ + vowel. These verbs lose the final vowel in the preterite. When the hu- becomes word-final (and even when it is syllable-final inside the word) it becomes voiceless and is written -uh. So we are not talking about a saltillo, rather the change from a voiced /w/ to a voiceless /w/. "palehuia" is a class 3 verb, and when it goes to the preterite, the final vowel is lost and a saltillo (h) appears. In modern Huastecan Nahuatl the "h" and the "-uh" sound similar, but there is a difference. And while an "h" causes a preceding long vowel to shorten, the "-uh" does not. John On Jan 18, 2010, at 1:59 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: > Dear one's, > I fully understand the argumentation of Lady Frances Karttunen contrasting open and closed syllables and the use of the ?h as the saltillo and as consonant, thanks anyway. > Like you said the saltillo is more than a morphogram, a sign to close a syllable,it is a phonogram too with a special sound. > But what about the following verbs and their Base 2 (verbal stem of the preteritum, el pretirito): > ?cihui, ?cihui > iciuh. > C?hua, c?hua > c?uh. > Pal?huia, pal?huia > pal?huih. > P?hua, p?hua > p?uh. > Ch?hua, ch?hua >chiuh. > ?hua, ?hua > ?uh. > C?hua, c?hua > c?uh. > These are all verbs by which the end letters change of place in Base 2. > The ending ?h, is that a saltillo, or is it just the letter ?h? > And if it is just a letter ?h, what is than the difference between the two? > Or is there no difference? > Lahun Ik 62 > Baert Georges > Flanders Fields. > PS. My excuses to the moderator. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Jan 19 05:11:35 2010 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:11:35 -0500 Subject: El Saltillo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Nahuatl orthography used in the 16th century and continuing to the present (along with a number of alternative orthographies that have been proposed since) uses some digraphs (two characters to represent a single consonant). Examples at tl for laterally released t as in tletl; tz as in tzapotl and itepotz; ch in Nahuatl chihua and nochpoch; qu before i and e; etc. Spanish uses hu- for phonetic w, which only occurs syllable-initially in Spanish. But in Nahuatl, [w] can be syllable-final as well as syllable-initial. In that case, the digraph is turned around and written -uh. So hu- as in huipilli and -uh as is notepeuh (possessed form of tepetl). (By the way, I am omitting vowel-length marking here, because the macrons in my Nahuatl print font often do strange things in the course of email transmission.) Similarly, the traditional Nahuatl orthography uses cu- in syllable- initial position but -uc syllable-finally: cualli but teuctli. Sometimes in traditional orthography, instead of the digraph -uc, the trigraph -cuh has been used (tecuhtli), and that causes all sorts of confusion, because people take the h here to be the saltillo, which it is not. cu-, -uc, and -cuh all stand for k made with rounded lips. In the examples cited below, the systematic dropping of a stem-final vowel in the past tense of Type 2 verbs changes the position of w from syllable-initial (ihui, ohua, -ihua, ehua, ahua) to syllable- final (iuh, ouh, iuh, euh, auh). So no, the h in these digraphs is not saltillo. It is part of hu- ~ uh, representing w. On Jan 18, 2010, at 2:59 PM, wrote: > Dear one's, > > I fully understand the argumentation of Lady Frances Karttunen > contrasting open and closed syllables and the use of the ?h as the > saltillo and as consonant, thanks anyway. > > Like you said the saltillo is more than a morphogram, a sign to > close a syllable,it is a phonogram too with a special sound. > > But what about the following verbs and their Base 2 (verbal stem of > the preteritum, el pretirito): > > ?cihui, ?cihui > iciuh. > > C?hua, c?hua > c?uh. > > Pal?huia, pal?huia > pal?huih. > > P?hua, p?hua > p?uh. > > Ch?hua, ch?hua >chiuh. > > ?hua, ?hua > ?uh. > > C?hua, c?hua > c?uh. > > These are all verbs by which the end letters change of place in > Base 2. > > The ending ?h, is that a saltillo, or is it just the letter ?h? > > And if it is just a letter ?h, what is than the difference between > the two? > > Or is there no difference? > > Lahun Ik 62 > > Baert Georges > > Flanders Fields. > > PS. My excuses to the moderator. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From swood at uoregon.edu Wed Jan 20 01:23:52 2010 From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:23:52 -0800 Subject: NEH summer institute in Oaxaca, 2010 Message-ID: Please post or forward (apologies for any duplication): "Mesoamerican Cultures and their Histories: Spotlight on Oaxaca!" NEH Summer Institute, July 11-August 7, 2010, in Oaxaca, Mexico This is a four-week institute for school teachers (K-12, public or private) wishing to develop curricular materials about Mesoamerican cultures and their histories (with a focus on the peoples of Oaxaca, in southern Mexico, in pre-Columbian and Spanish-colonial times). The institute will include excursions to ruined, ancient settlements and modern-day indigenous communities. We will have a week on archaeology, a week on ethnohistory, a week on the arts, and a week on film. Participating lecturers will be drawn from among Oaxacan scholars and a few faculty from the University of Oregon, home of a number of renowned Mesoamerican digital collections. We will offer optional technological workshops on Fridays. Curricular materials that result from the institute will become part of a free, shared resource among participants. We have room for up to 27 teachers, plus up to 3 grad students who are preparing to be teachers. Participants who are selected from the national competition will receive a stipend of $3000 plus what is left from another $300 being held back to cover entrance fees on field trips, etc. The $3000 stipend is meant to cover most expenses such as travel, lodging, and food, but we cannot guarantee that it will cover all expenses (depending upon the choice of hotels and restaurants). Participants will arrange their own travel and lodging, but we are organizing some specials with hotels placed near our meeting locations in downtown Oaxaca city. Books are normally to be purchased from the stipend, too, but we are making digital versions of all the readings to save the participants money and to prevent having to carry heavy books in suitcases. For more information, please visit our website: http://whp.uoregon.edu/mesoinstitute/ You may also send questions to: Stephanie Wood, Director (swood AT uoregon DOT edu). Stephanie Wood, Ph.D., Director Wired Humanities Projects Yamada Language Center 1236 University of Oregon Eugene, Oregon 97403-1236 U.S.A. Tel. 541-346-5771 swood at uoregon.edu Office: UO Annex, Suite 4 876 E. 12th Avenue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 18:45:15 2010 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:45:15 -0600 Subject: 12 0 13 de febrero = 1 Atlcahualo Message-ID: Hola foristas y Tom En d?as pasados Tom Grigsby pregunto sobre que autor moderno utiliza la fecha de 13 de febrero (calendario gregoriano) como equivalente a la fecha de 1Atlcahualo Nos dice Tom "Broda, Hassig and others have used February 12 (Gregorian) as 1 Atlacahualo. I?ve also seen February 13 used. Can anyone give me the citation for this latter date as 1 Atlacahualo?" A la pregunta hay una respuesta que no pude leer del notable investigador I Sprajc porque el mail desafortunadamente me llego con caracteres basura ilegibles Ojala vuelva ser enviado Me permito responder tu pregunta : Un autor que utiliza la fecha 13 de febrero como correlaci?n con 1 Atlcahualo es el historiador de arte: Michael Graulich. As? lo hace en el cuadro 3 de su obra clave publicada en el a?o de 1987 , llamada en espa?ol: "La fiesta de las veintenas" , se?alando que la veintena de Atlcahualo corre del d?a 13/2 al d?a 4/3 . Graulich coloca estas fechas cuando anota , en su particular juicio y personal propuesta, el calendario que considera desfasado y carente de un mecanismo de ajuste con la duraci?n real del a?o tr?pico mecanismo que en el caso de los romanos se llamo doble sexto sexto bis o bisexto o deformado bisiesto (ver p 65 edicion mexicana de la obra citada) La equiparaci?n se?alada est? anotada en el segundo cap?tulo de la obra citada en donde junto al primer ca?pitulo Graulich expone y desarrolla lo que sera su fundamento argumental, los cimientos y "traves" de las posteriores tesis de interpretaci?n que hace en esa y en otras obras , y en donde tambi?n de manera mas clara nos muestra su metodo de trabajo, su forma de tratar y susar los datos , su ?ptica y su m?todo de analisis y sus hipotesis o mejor dicho en muchos casos los postulados que fundan su interpretaci?n Debo anotar que me asombra que este dato no lo hayan respondido los muchos seguidores de las tesis de Graullich en su peculiar interpretaci?n de la religi?n y el calendario "azteca" . Me extra?a su falta de respuesta dado la forma como muchos de los seguidores de Graulich adoptan sus tesis no como una interpretaci?n mas de la religi?n "azteca" sino como la verdadera interpretaci?n y a veces me parece como una nueva religi?n tanto "azteca" como moderna. La actitud de muchos de sus seguidores y la fama y el peso que esta interpretaci?n ha ido adquiriendo en los medios acad?micos, es un fenomeno que me recuerda a lo ocurrido hace d?cadas cuando yo estudiaba ciencias sociales con lo que paso con la fama y ef?mera "hegemonia" del altuserrianismo y estructuralismo marxistoide en filosofia, economia y sociologia con Althusser , Poulantzas Bettelheim, y como despues de nuevo ocurri? con las propuestas de otros pensadores franceses como Foucalt o el pensamiento de Delauze y Guattari y otros mas los cuales como Graulich no son responsables de los actos de su "grey". En todo caso la propuesta del dia 13 de febrero como 1 Atlcahualo que hace Graulich no me parece errada si se considera como cierta que el dia indiano iba del mediodia al medio dia esto es ocupar?a del dia 12 de febrero actual a las 12 del d?a hasta las 12 horas del d?a 12 de febrero del d?a 13 de febrero. Lo que lleva supuesto que en la religi?n "azteca" la vida el mundo inicio a las 12 del d?a a plena luz . Algo que todas las religiones plantean Y hagase la luz dijo dios, pues a ningun pueblo le interesa destacar que lo primero que hizo dios al hacer el mundo fue dejarlo a oscuras, aunque cuando vemos la tragedia ocurrida en Haiti pienso que si acaso existe Dios realmente hace las cosas en la oscuridad y deja al mundo en las tinieblas. Por otro lado para mi en todo caso, me parece mas interesante la sobrevivencia de la fecha 2 de febrero en el ritual religioso vigente en las regiones rurales y que aun pervive en algunos aspectos en ciudades de Mexico. El dos de febrero se celebra en la liturgia oficial cat?lica la purificaci?n de la virgen , rito judaico heredado , el fin de la cuarentena ?sto es los cuarenta d?as que no se podia tener relaciones sexuales con una mujer que recien hab?a parido, en este caso esa ni?a de 12 a?os que fue llamada la virgen Mar?a.. Pero el sentido religioso oficial cristiano judaico como tal no es tomado en cuenta en la celebraci?n religiosa popular que se hace en M?xico El nombre mas comun de la fiesta del dos de febrero es llamarle la fiesta de la Candelaria , en recuerdo de las candelas, lease teas y fogatas que en ese d?a se hac?a en tiempos coloniales . En todas partes de M?xico sitios rurales urbanos "levantan" al ni?o dios del "nacimiento " y se le viste con ropajes nuevos algunos estramboticos como uniformes de equipois d futbol soccer . En poblaciones rurales a?n se acostumbra ese d?a de la candelaria llevar bendecir velas que usran en caso de muerte o para rituales paganos o cristianos en demanda del temporal y bendicen semillas que se usaran en la siguiente siembra , la siembra grande que en muchas zonas ocurre en marzo Alguna ves pregunte en un foro espa?ol si la bendici?n de semillas se acostumbraba en Espa?a pero nadie me respondio. No se si la bendici?n de semillas el dos de febrero sea un rito s?lo practicado en M?xico, epro por la informaci?n que he sacado s?lo en P?ginas WEB parace que si lo es. La antropologa Beatriz Albores que ha estudiado el valle del Alto lerma, para decirlo mas claro el valle de Toluca, zona otomiana, originalmente matlatzinca , despues ?a?u y despues con "colonos" nahoas , propone que la fiesta de la candelaria forma parte de un ciclo de fiestas catolicas que de manera sincretica reproducen o dan luz sobre el ciclo de fiestas prehisp?nicas de esa regi?n otomiana. Recomiendo que consigas los articulos de la Dra Albores publicados en la revista de de Estudios otopames editado por el Instituto de Investigaciones Antropol?gicas de la UNAM Si su interes es el calendario "azteca" recomiendo tambien el fundamentado estudio "El Calendario Mexica y la cronograf?a" de Rafael Tena publicado en segunda reimpresi?n por el INAH en el a?o 2008 en donde se aborda la propuesta de la existencia de un mecanismo de ajuste del calendario a la duraci?n real del a?o tr?pico , Tena propone y fundamenta la existencia de un un d?a biquinto lo cual pictoricamente estar?a ilustrado en las l?minas 7r del c?dice Telleriano y y 92r del Maglabechi y ubicado en los nemontemi o d?as vacios que en la inerpretaci?n de tena ya no lo ser?an sino tendr?an importancia religiosa y su area de intervencion divinna ser?a la lluvia http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Telleriano-Remensis/page_07r.jpg http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Magliabecchiano/page_92r.jpg Espero haber sido util Roberto Romero Gutierrez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Thu Jan 21 14:33:48 2010 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:33:48 +0100 Subject: 12 0 13 de febrero = 1 Atlcahualo Message-ID: Roberto, En el octavo parrafo despues de "Me permito responder tu pregunta" mencionas el "dia INDIANO". Te estas refiriendo a la India??? o al dia Azteca? :-| Susana ----- Original Message ----- From: roberto romero To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 7:45 PM Subject: [Nahuat-l] 12 0 13 de febrero = 1 Atlcahualo Hola foristas y Tom En d?as pasados Tom Grigsby pregunto sobre que autor moderno utiliza la fecha de 13 de febrero (calendario gregoriano) como equivalente a la fecha de 1Atlcahualo Nos dice Tom "Broda, Hassig and others have used February 12 (Gregorian) as 1 Atlacahualo. I?ve also seen February 13 used. Can anyone give me the citation for this latter date as 1 Atlacahualo?" A la pregunta hay una respuesta que no pude leer del notable investigador I Sprajc porque el mail desafortunadamente me llego con caracteres basura ilegibles Ojala vuelva ser enviado Me permito responder tu pregunta : Un autor que utiliza la fecha 13 de febrero como correlaci?n con 1 Atlcahualo es el historiador de arte: Michael Graulich. As? lo hace en el cuadro 3 de su obra clave publicada en el a?o de 1987 , llamada en espa?ol: "La fiesta de las veintenas" , se?alando que la veintena de Atlcahualo corre del d?a 13/2 al d?a 4/3 . Graulich coloca estas fechas cuando anota , en su particular juicio y personal propuesta, el calendario que considera desfasado y carente de un mecanismo de ajuste con la duraci?n real del a?o tr?pico mecanismo que en el caso de los romanos se llamo doble sexto sexto bis o bisexto o deformado bisiesto (ver p 65 edicion mexicana de la obra citada) La equiparaci?n se?alada est? anotada en el segundo cap?tulo de la obra citada en donde junto al primer ca?pitulo Graulich expone y desarrolla lo que sera su fundamento argumental, los cimientos y "traves" de las posteriores tesis de interpretaci?n que hace en esa y en otras obras , y en donde tambi?n de manera mas clara nos muestra su metodo de trabajo, su forma de tratar y susar los datos , su ?ptica y su m?todo de analisis y sus hipotesis o mejor dicho en muchos casos los postulados que fundan su interpretaci?n Debo anotar que me asombra que este dato no lo hayan respondido los muchos seguidores de las tesis de Graullich en su peculiar interpretaci?n de la religi?n y el calendario "azteca" . Me extra?a su falta de respuesta dado la forma como muchos de los seguidores de Graulich adoptan sus tesis no como una interpretaci?n mas de la religi?n "azteca" sino como la verdadera interpretaci?n y a veces me parece como una nueva religi?n tanto "azteca" como moderna. La actitud de muchos de sus seguidores y la fama y el peso que esta interpretaci?n ha ido adquiriendo en los medios acad?micos, es un fenomeno que me recuerda a lo ocurrido hace d?cadas cuando yo estudiaba ciencias sociales con lo que paso con la fama y ef?mera "hegemonia" del altuserrianismo y estructuralismo marxistoide en filosofia, economia y sociologia con Althusser , Poulantzas Bettelheim, y como despues de nuevo ocurri? con las propuestas de otros pensadores franceses como Foucalt o el pensamiento de Delauze y Guattari y otros mas los cuales como Graulich no son responsables de los actos de su "grey". En todo caso la propuesta del dia 13 de febrero como 1 Atlcahualo que hace Graulich no me parece errada si se considera como cierta que el dia indiano iba del mediodia al medio dia esto es ocupar?a del dia 12 de febrero actual a las 12 del d?a hasta las 12 horas del d?a 12 de febrero del d?a 13 de febrero. Lo que lleva supuesto que en la religi?n "azteca" la vida el mundo inicio a las 12 del d?a a plena luz . Algo que todas las religiones plantean Y hagase la luz dijo dios, pues a ningun pueblo le interesa destacar que lo primero que hizo dios al hacer el mundo fue dejarlo a oscuras, aunque cuando vemos la tragedia ocurrida en Haiti pienso que si acaso existe Dios realmente hace las cosas en la oscuridad y deja al mundo en las tinieblas. Por otro lado para mi en todo caso, me parece mas interesante la sobrevivencia de la fecha 2 de febrero en el ritual religioso vigente en las regiones rurales y que aun pervive en algunos aspectos en ciudades de Mexico. El dos de febrero se celebra en la liturgia oficial cat?lica la purificaci?n de la virgen , rito judaico heredado , el fin de la cuarentena ?sto es los cuarenta d?as que no se podia tener relaciones sexuales con una mujer que recien hab?a parido, en este caso esa ni?a de 12 a?os que fue llamada la virgen Mar?a.. Pero el sentido religioso oficial cristiano judaico como tal no es tomado en cuenta en la celebraci?n religiosa popular que se hace en M?xico El nombre mas comun de la fiesta del dos de febrero es llamarle la fiesta de la Candelaria , en recuerdo de las candelas, lease teas y fogatas que en ese d?a se hac?a en tiempos coloniales . En todas partes de M?xico sitios rurales urbanos "levantan" al ni?o dios del "nacimiento " y se le viste con ropajes nuevos algunos estramboticos como uniformes de equipois d futbol soccer . En poblaciones rurales a?n se acostumbra ese d?a de la candelaria llevar bendecir velas que usran en caso de muerte o para rituales paganos o cristianos en demanda del temporal y bendicen semillas que se usaran en la siguiente siembra , la siembra grande que en muchas zonas ocurre en marzo Alguna ves pregunte en un foro espa?ol si la bendici?n de semillas se acostumbraba en Espa?a pero nadie me respondio. No se si la bendici?n de semillas el dos de febrero sea un rito s?lo practicado en M?xico, epro por la informaci?n que he sacado s?lo en P?ginas WEB parace que si lo es. La antropologa Beatriz Albores que ha estudiado el valle del Alto lerma, para decirlo mas claro el valle de Toluca, zona otomiana, originalmente matlatzinca , despues ?a?u y despues con "colonos" nahoas , propone que la fiesta de la candelaria forma parte de un ciclo de fiestas catolicas que de manera sincretica reproducen o dan luz sobre el ciclo de fiestas prehisp?nicas de esa regi?n otomiana. Recomiendo que consigas los articulos de la Dra Albores publicados en la revista de de Estudios otopames editado por el Instituto de Investigaciones Antropol?gicas de la UNAM Si su interes es el calendario "azteca" recomiendo tambien el fundamentado estudio "El Calendario Mexica y la cronograf?a" de Rafael Tena publicado en segunda reimpresi?n por el INAH en el a?o 2008 en donde se aborda la propuesta de la existencia de un mecanismo de ajuste del calendario a la duraci?n real del a?o tr?pico , Tena propone y fundamenta la existencia de un un d?a biquinto lo cual pictoricamente estar?a ilustrado en las l?minas 7r del c?dice Telleriano y y 92r del Maglabechi y ubicado en los nemontemi o d?as vacios que en la inerpretaci?n de tena ya no lo ser?an sino tendr?an importancia religiosa y su area de intervencion divinna ser?a la lluvia http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Telleriano-Remensis/page_07r.jpg http://www.famsi.org/spanish/research/loubat/Magliabecchiano/page_92r.jpg Espero haber sido util Roberto Romero Gutierrez ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From swood at uoregon.edu Thu Jan 21 20:18:10 2010 From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:18:10 -0800 Subject: map/mapa exhibit for 2012-13? Message-ID: Hello listeros (please excuse duplication), I am part of a committee that is trying to organize an exhibit on our campus (U of Oregon) for the academic year 2012-13 that would include Age of Exploration maps of the Americas and mapas/lienzos authored by indigenous people of Mesoamerica ca. 1550-1900. This could include alphabetic, indigenous language texts, too. If you are a curator or are in close touch with one, and you believe your institution might have -- and be willing to loan (this is key) -- one or more pieces for such an exhibit, would you please contact me off list? We are having a difficult time finding repositories that are willing to loan items. Either they do not loan at all, or they are loaning to a competing exhibit, or their items will need to be "resting" at that time. We can provide information about our museum's security, climate control, light, etc., as necessary. We are open to collaboration, and having an exhibit travel to another venue or two (if the loan stipulations would permit that). Also, if you have suggestions about grants that are available to help underwrite such exhibits, I would be pleased to hear about those. I am aware of what NEH offers. Thanks in advance! Stephanie Wood University of Oregon _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Jan 23 03:54:42 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 21:54:42 -0600 Subject: Yancuic tlamahuizolli tlen IDIEZ Message-ID: Piyali momachtianih, Oncah ce yancuic tlamahuizolli tlen IDIEZ pan youtube: itocah "Tlahpaloliztli". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From swood at uoregon.edu Fri Jan 29 23:00:06 2010 From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:00:06 -0800 Subject: Mesoamerica & digital humanities Message-ID: The Wired Humanities Projects at the University of Oregon (with 90% of our digital humanities research projects having a Mesoamerican focus -- see http://whp.uoregon.edu/ ) is looking for a new home. We have been very successful at winning external funding, and would like to be able to continue writing grant proposals. We are open to collaboration. Any leads would be much appreciated. Please direct your replies to me off list. I apologize for any duplication and I hope people won't mind my using the listserv to make this inquiry. Thanks very much! Stephanie Wood, Ph.D., Director Wired Humanities Projects Yamada Language Center 1236 University of Oregon Eugene, Oregon 97403-1236 U.S.A. Tel. 541-346-5771 swood at uoregon.edu Office: UO Annex, Suite 4 876 E. 12th Avenue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Jan 30 23:10:10 2010 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:10:10 -0600 Subject: Calques in Otomi and Nahuatl Message-ID: Muy estimados listeros: We have become accustomed to equating language and culture, when in reality language is but one element in the complex mosaic of learned behavior that constitutes culture. After searching for three decades for significant nonlinguistic cultural differences between speakers of Otomi and Nahuatl in late pre-Hispanic and early colonial central Mexico (and not finding many), I have reached the tentative conclusion that there was an essentially homogenous plurilinguistic culture in this region. Nonlinguistic cultural differences exist, but their distribution rarely coincides with linguistic boundaries (which are, to say the least, quite fuzzy). One way to put this idea to the test is to look at the words and phrases used by different language groups to talk about aspects of culture. When this is done with Otomi and Nahuatl we often find calques, sometimes metaphorical in nature, in which key concepts cross language boundaries, each group expressing the same idea in their own words. The list published by Thomas Smith-Stark* is a useful starting point, athough the Otomi corpus is inadequately represented; when 16th century vocabularies are considered, the list expands enormously. Needless to say, this has important implications for the interpretation of pictorial texts, and explains in part why groups with languages as diverse as Nahuatl, Mixtec, and Otomi used the same pictorial signs to express the same concepts within a basically semasiographic system which straddles the blurry border between the western categories of writing and visual arts (although each group could use homophonic word plays to create glottographs, which can be divided into logographs --which express morphemes, that is, sounds with meaning-- and phonographs --which express sounds that are not necessarily tied to meaning, like syllables and phonemes--). In the new volume (no. 16) of Tlalocan, I look at Otomi and Nahuatl calendrical terms, where calques are the norm. If anyone would like for me to e-mail them a PDF file scanned from the published text, please let me know at dchwrightcarr at yahoo.com. In another article, published on line, I explore Otomi and Nahuatl names for social structures, where there are also many calques. I think I mentioned this on the Nahuat-l list when it came out, but since it relates to the Tlalocan article I'll provide the URL again: http://www.dinpo.ugto.mx/acta/publicaciones/v18-esp/actav18-esp.htm Comments are welcome, preferably off-list, unless there is something that you feel is a worthy topic for group discussion. Saludos, David * Smith-Stark, Thomas C., ?Mesoamerican calques,? in Investigaciones ling??sticas en Mesoam?rica, Carolyn J. MacKay and Ver?nica V?zquez, editors, Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1994, pp. 15-50. Some of the data presented in the latter article also appears in: Campbell, Lyle; Kaufman, Terrence; Thomas C. Smith-Stark, ?Meso-America as a linguistic area,? in Language (Linguistic Society of America), vol. 62, no. 3, September 1986, pp. 530-570. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu Sun Jan 31 21:26:10 2010 From: Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu (Michael Smith) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:26:10 -0700 Subject: David Wright on Otomi and Nahuatl Message-ID: I would be interested in hearing commentary from linguists and others about David's very interesting paper in Acta Universitaria (the link is in his latest post). I found this paper extremely enlightening and very surprising. Who would have thought that the political, urban, and social hierarchies in Otomi and Nahuatl cultures were virtually identical in structure? Perhaps my amazement comes from ignorance or naivet?. But in Mesoamerican studies we are accustomed to thinking in ethnic terms, and interpreting societies, cultures, and material culture in terms of ethnic groups. The Nahuas were like this, and the Otomis were like that. Maybe we have internalized the ethnic stereotypes in Sahag?n (Otomi blockheads, etc.). But I found David's article enlightening and I am having students read it. How common is his notion of a "essentially homogeneous plurilinguistic culture" ? Is this a common occurrence in other areas? Is his model surprising, or something to be expected? What are the implications of this kind of model for understanding prehispanic society in central Mexico? (please pardon my ignorance here, I readily admit to being among the linguistically-challenged, and I no longer have departmental colleagues like John Justeson to pester about these things). Mike Smith Wright Carr, David Charles 2008 La sociedad prehisp?nica en las lenguas N?huatl y Otom?. Acta Universitaria (Universidad de Guanajuato) 18(especial):15-23. Michael E. Smith, Professor School of Human Evolution & Social Change Arizona State University www.public.asu.edu/~mesmith9 http://publishingarchaeology.blogspot.com http://calixtlahuaca.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Jan 31 23:05:21 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 17:05:21 -0600 Subject: Calques in Otomi and Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <006401caa201$5f3d99a0$1db8cce0$@net.mx> Message-ID: Piyali listeros, I agree with you, David. One very highly regarded tepahtihquetl/xochitlalquetl in the Chicontepec area of northern Veracruz is the otom?, don Juanito. He speaks no Nahuatl, but the form and content of his performance (for lack of a better word) of the tlatlacualtia ceremony in Nahua villages is indistinguishable from that of Nahua practitioners. John On Jan 30, 2010, at 5:10 PM, David Wright wrote: > Muy estimados listeros: > > We have become accustomed to equating language and culture, when in reality > language is but one element in the complex mosaic of learned behavior that > constitutes culture. After searching for three decades for significant > nonlinguistic cultural differences between speakers of Otomi and Nahuatl in > late pre-Hispanic and early colonial central Mexico (and not finding many), > I have reached the tentative conclusion that there was an essentially > homogenous plurilinguistic culture in this region. Nonlinguistic cultural > differences exist, but their distribution rarely coincides with linguistic > boundaries (which are, to say the least, quite fuzzy). > > One way to put this idea to the test is to look at the words and phrases > used by different language groups to talk about aspects of culture. When > this is done with Otomi and Nahuatl we often find calques, sometimes > metaphorical in nature, in which key concepts cross language boundaries, > each group expressing the same idea in their own words. The list published > by Thomas Smith-Stark* is a useful starting point, athough the Otomi corpus > is inadequately represented; when 16th century vocabularies are considered, > the list expands enormously. > > Needless to say, this has important implications for the interpretation of > pictorial texts, and explains in part why groups with languages as diverse > as Nahuatl, Mixtec, and Otomi used the same pictorial signs to express the > same concepts within a basically semasiographic system which straddles the > blurry border between the western categories of writing and visual arts > (although each group could use homophonic word plays to create glottographs, > which can be divided into logographs --which express morphemes, that is, > sounds with meaning-- and phonographs --which express sounds that are not > necessarily tied to meaning, like syllables and phonemes--). > > In the new volume (no. 16) of Tlalocan, I look at Otomi and Nahuatl > calendrical terms, where calques are the norm. If anyone would like for me > to e-mail them a PDF file scanned from the published text, please let me > know at dchwrightcarr at yahoo.com. > > In another article, published on line, I explore Otomi and Nahuatl names for > social structures, where there are also many calques. I think I mentioned > this on the Nahuat-l list when it came out, but since it relates to the > Tlalocan article I'll provide the URL again: > http://www.dinpo.ugto.mx/acta/publicaciones/v18-esp/actav18-esp.htm > > Comments are welcome, preferably off-list, unless there is something that > you feel is a worthy topic for group discussion. > > Saludos, > > David > > * Smith-Stark, Thomas C., ?Mesoamerican calques,? in Investigaciones > ling??sticas en Mesoam?rica, Carolyn J. MacKay and Ver?nica V?zquez, > editors, Mexico, Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas, Universidad > Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1994, pp. 15-50. Some of the data presented in > the latter article also appears in: Campbell, Lyle; Kaufman, Terrence; > Thomas C. Smith-Stark, ?Meso-America as a linguistic area,? in Language > (Linguistic Society of America), vol. 62, no. 3, September 1986, pp. > 530-570. > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl