From micc2 at cox.net Fri Jul 2 15:46:38 2010 From: micc2 at cox.net (mario e. aguilar) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:46:38 -0700 Subject: Huitzilopochtli In-Reply-To: <655508.67274.qm@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Many "new age" Danza Azteca groups will "translate" Nahuatl into what ever they feel is cool. There is a whole sub-culture of psuedo-Nahuatl language "experts" that mix what they think is mesoamerican culture with UFOism, Nostradamus worship, and political ideology to create "our ancient Mexi'ca ways." No amount of scholarly "error pointing" will change their minds; those of us who try to use logic, reason, and empirical data to understand indigenous culture, language and spirituality are seen by these fringe groups (which I gently call my Mexi'ca Nazi brothers), as eur-centric sell-outs. Or on the otherhand they could be a dance group of the "purely comemercial" world. For these groups the more outreageous the claimi to their Aztec blood; the more athletic and showy their dancing, the more they can charge...... Neither of these groups have any real /"esencia/" or /"tradicion"/" in what we know today as La Danza Azteca-Chichimeca-Conchera of central Mexico. I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD www.mexicayotl.net On 6/30/2010 9:13 AM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > --- On Wed, 30/6/10, Leeming, Ben wrote: > > Piyali listeros, here’s an interesting one that has me scratching > my head. > > I just read the following in an article from the Woodburn (OR) > Independent online: > > WOODBURN — Woodburn’s local Aztec dance group, Danza Azteca > Huitzilopochtli, > > provided a feast for the senses in their performance at Library Park > on June 24. > > The group’s name, Huitzilopochtli, is a Nahuatl word meaning > “strength of your will.” > > (emphasis mine) > > I can’t for the life of me discern how “strength of your will” comes > from Huitzilopochtli... > > Any thoughts where this might have come from? > > Here’s the link: > http://www.woodburnindependent.com/news/2010/June/29/News.Briefs/local.aztec.dance.group.to.perform.june.24/news.aspx > > Random guesswork and writing whatever they like to advertize their > group, likeliest. > > Someone better write to them pointing out their error. > > Citlalyani. > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From chelodona at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 16:10:20 2010 From: chelodona at hotmail.com (chelo dona) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:10:20 -0300 Subject: Huitzilopochtli In-Reply-To: <4C2E09DE.7040106@cox.net> Message-ID: Correcto, Mario. Sin embargo lo más "intenso" que podrían hacer sería estudiar un profesorado, y "the more they could charge" sería recibir un sueldo de una institución. El hombre es un chimpancé neurótico, y parte de la locura de cada uno es creer que SU locura es la única posible. Cuando esos chicos creen que pertenecen a otra cultura están teniendo una pequeña visión de la realidad que no podrían tener desde un punto de vista académico. Dona Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:46:38 -0700 From: micc2 at cox.net To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Huitzilopochtli Many "new age" Danza Azteca groups will "translate" Nahuatl into what ever they feel is cool. There is a whole sub-culture of psuedo-Nahuatl language "experts" that mix what they think is mesoamerican culture with UFOism, Nostradamus worship, and political ideology to create "our ancient Mexi'ca ways." No amount of scholarly "error pointing" will change their minds; those of us who try to use logic, reason, and empirical data to understand indigenous culture, language and spirituality are seen by these fringe groups (which I gently call my Mexi'ca Nazi brothers), as eur-centric sell-outs. Or on the otherhand they could be a dance group of the "purely comemercial" world. For these groups the more outreageous the claimi to their Aztec blood; the more athletic and showy their dancing, the more they can charge...... Neither of these groups have any real "esencia" or "tradicion"" in what we know today as La Danza Azteca-Chichimeca-Conchera of central Mexico. I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD www.mexicayotl.net On 6/30/2010 9:13 AM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: --- On Wed, 30/6/10, Leeming, Ben wrote: > Piyali listeros, here’s an interesting one that has me scratching my head. > I just read the following in an article from the Woodburn (OR) Independent online: > WOODBURN — Woodburn’s local Aztec dance group, Danza Azteca Huitzilopochtli, > provided a feast for the senses in their performance at Library Park on June 24. > The group’s name, Huitzilopochtli, is a Nahuatl word meaning “strength of your will.” > (emphasis mine) > I can’t for the life of me discern how “strength of your will” comes from Huitzilopochtli... > Any thoughts where this might have come from? > Here’s the link: http://www.woodburnindependent.com/news/2010/June/29/News.Briefs/local.aztec.dance.group.to.perform.june.24/news.aspx Random guesswork and writing whatever they like to advertize their group, likeliest. Someone better write to them pointing out their error. Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _________________________________________________________________ Preparate para un nuevo Hotmail con mucho más de lo que tu vida necesita. Ver más http://www.nuevohotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Fri Jul 2 21:35:38 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:35:38 +0200 Subject: Huitzilopochtli Message-ID: Huitzilopochtli. A divine name. A tribal God of the Mexicah, leading them from Aztlan to Tenochtitlan. A War God, patron of the young warriors, assuring the captive of prisoners to feed the Sun, Tonatiuh. It's a very particular disturbing God, a demon, tlacatecolotli, the God of bad omen, tetzauhteotl, tetzahuitl. See Sah.1.1. In tlacatecalotl in itoca tetzahuitl Huitzilopochtli, the fearful demon. See J.de Durand Forest, 3rd Relation of Chimalpahin II, 1, 68r. Especially for Woodburn's "Aztec" Dance group who want to strengthen their will, to dance like a fearful demon. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jul 5 14:00:18 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 10:00:18 -0400 Subject: poem source Message-ID: Can anyone point me to the source of this poem. It's supposed to be from the Nahuatl. Thank you! Michael ===================================== In the house with the tortoise chair she will give birth to the pearl to the beautiful feather in the house of the goddess who sits on a tortoise she will give birth to the necklace of pearls to the beautiful feathers we are there she sits on the tortoise swelling to give us birth on your way on your way child be on your way to me here you whom I made new come here child - come be pearl be beautiful feather _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jbierhorst at aol.com Wed Jul 7 21:42:34 2010 From: jbierhorst at aol.com (jbierhorst at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 17:42:34 -0400 Subject: poem source In-Reply-To: <20100705100018.hhnlqqp9s4k8w80w@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Michael McCafferty, The "poem," very popular on New Age websites, given merely as an "Aztec poem," is from Seler's Gesammelte Abhandlungen, vol. 2, p. 1045: "Im Hause des Schildkrotensitzes ist, kommt sie nieder, gebiert sie die Perle, die Schmuckfeder [...]." Compare Anderson & Dibble Florentine Codex, part 2 (1951 ed.), p. 211: "Song of Aiopechtli. / There in her home [the goddess] Aiopechcatl, with child, gave birth [...]" Probably the source used is Jerome Rothenberg, Shaking the Pumpkin (Anchor 1972), pp. 50 & 407. And the translator is Anselm Hollo (see his page on Wikipedia). Best, John Bierhorst -----Original Message----- From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Mon, Jul 5, 2010 10:00 am Subject: [Nahuat-l] poem source Can anyone point me to the source of this poem. It's supposed to be from the Nahuatl. Thank you! Michael ===================================== In the house with the tortoise chair she will give birth to the pearl to the beautiful feather in the house of the goddess who sits on a tortoise she will give birth to the necklace of pearls to the beautiful feathers we are there she sits on the tortoise swelling to give us birth on your way on your way child be on your way to me here you whom I made new come here child - come be pearl be beautiful feather _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Jul 8 18:01:26 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 14:01:26 -0400 Subject: poem source In-Reply-To: <30870_1278591845_o68CO3aU017466_8CCEC3471ABEF08-325C-1DFD@Webmail-d115.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thank you, John Bierhorst, for your reply. I first saw the poem in 1971 or 72, before there was "New Age," in a book titled_Technicians of the Sacred_, whence I copied it. I came across it the other day and was wondering what the original Nahuatl look like. Best regards, Michael McCafferty Quoting jbierhorst at aol.com: > Dear Michael McCafferty, > > > The "poem," very popular on New Age websites, given merely as an > "Aztec poem," is from Seler's Gesammelte Abhandlungen, vol. 2, p. > 1045: "Im Hause des Schildkrotensitzes ist, kommt sie nieder, gebiert > sie die Perle, die Schmuckfeder [...]." Compare Anderson & Dibble > Florentine Codex, part 2 (1951 ed.), p. 211: "Song of Aiopechtli. / > There in her home [the goddess] Aiopechcatl, with child, gave birth > [...]" Probably the source used is Jerome Rothenberg, Shaking the > Pumpkin (Anchor 1972), pp. 50 & 407. And the translator is Anselm > Hollo (see his page on Wikipedia). > > > Best, > > > John Bierhorst > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Sent: Mon, Jul 5, 2010 10:00 am > Subject: [Nahuat-l] poem source > > > Can anyone point me to the source of this poem. It's supposed to be > from the Nahuatl. Thank you! Michael > > ===================================== > > > In the house with the tortoise chair > she will give birth to the pearl > to the beautiful feather > > in the house of the goddess who sits on a tortoise > she will give birth to the necklace of pearls > to the beautiful feathers we are > > there she sits on the tortoise > swelling to give us birth > > on your way on your way > child be on your way to me here > you whom I made new > > come here child - come be pearl > be beautiful feather > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Tue Jul 27 23:56:32 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:56:32 +0200 Subject: A few words Message-ID: * Pitzahua, John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give change. Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. Karttunen: to get thin Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. * Chapolin, Grasshopper or cricket? The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a very devastating insect. The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male one makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his 11th Book pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town like Chapoltepec was found on a mountain full of devastating grasshoppers? The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator or the campestris? * Cactli, shoe (Launey). Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John Bierhorst Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From nekopixan at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 15:01:44 2010 From: nekopixan at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fernando_P=E9rez?=) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:01:44 -0500 Subject: A few words In-Reply-To: <5FAE222A06F74EADB32B3CE4E2114846@baert> Message-ID: Hello, About the word Cactli (shoe), listen to Launey :P In most modern variants of Nahuatl, they say "cactli" for "shoe". My teachers are native, and they do use the word in class and out of class (when I listen to them speaking to each other). On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 6:56 PM, wrote: > · *Pitzahua,* > > *John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give > change.* > > *Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse.* > > *Karttunen: to get thin* > > *Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out > slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant > Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162.* > > · *Chapolin,* > > *Grasshopper or cricket?* > > *The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a very > devastating insect.* > > *The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male one > makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his 11th Book > pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town like Chapoltepec > was found on a mountain full of devastating grasshoppers?* > > *The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator or the > campestris?* > > · *Cactli, shoe (Launey).* > > *Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe.* > > *It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John > Bierhorst * > > *Lahun Ik 62* > > *Baert Georges* > > *Flanders** Fields* > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Fernando Pérez Peña Lic. en Idiomas - Traductor Inglés, Francés, Alemán, Japonés, Náhuatl, Italiano - Español -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 28 17:24:03 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:24:03 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: A few words Message-ID: Mr. Baert, Quoting lahunik.62 at skynet.be: > * Pitzahua, > > John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give change. > > Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. > > Karttunen: to get thin > > Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out > slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant > Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. Yes. Nice quote. Pitza:hua is classical Nahuatl has two forms, an intransitive form which means, like you say, "to get thin, slender" and a transitive form that means "to make something thin, slender". There is also an intransitive form, pitza:hui, that also means "to get thin". John's modern term involving money seems to derive from classical pitza:hua. It's important to remember that the dialect John works with, from Veracruz, is a *modern* dialect reflecting 500 years of language change. > > * Chapolin, > > Grasshopper or cricket? grasshopper > > The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a very > devastating insect. > > The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male one makes > that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his 11th Book pag > 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town like Chapoltepec was > found on a mountain full of devastating grasshoppers? > > The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator or the > campestris? Molina also gives "langosta" (locust). > > * Cactli, shoe (Launey). > > Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. Molina does. Karttunen's excellent modern dictionary also has the term. I would recommend getting a copy of it. It's very helpful Best, Cacchiuhqui > > It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John Bierhorst > > Lahun Ik 62 > > Baert Georges > > Flanders Fields > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Jul 28 18:41:31 2010 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:41:31 +0200 Subject: A few words Message-ID: You might already know that "chapolin" is the source for Mexican-spanish "chapulín", which is a "grillo" or "grasshopper". Not a cricket. (Have you ever eaten baby-chapulines as an appetizer with your tequila or mezcal? they are dried, roasted and covered with chilli powder and salt, and people say they are delicious. I am a vegetarian so I could not tell.) "Cactli" appears in Molina, in Remi Simeon and in Karttunen. Susana ----- Original Message ----- From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be To: Nahuatl List Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:56 AM Subject: [Nahuat-l] A few words · Pitzahua, John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give change. Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. Karttunen: to get thin Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. · Chapolin, Grasshopper or cricket? The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a very devastating insect. The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male one makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his 11th Book pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town like Chapoltepec was found on a mountain full of devastating grasshoppers? The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator or the campestris? · Cactli, shoe (Launey). Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John Bierhorst Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Jul 28 18:47:50 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:47:50 -0500 Subject: A few words In-Reply-To: <5FAE222A06F74EADB32B3CE4E2114846@baert> Message-ID: Piyali Baert, First of all the dictionary I made available has only about 1000 of the 7000 headwords that are in our dictionary. The full list will be available by the end of this next school year. In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl shoe is "tecactli", my shoe, "notecac". Michael, yes the language has evolved over the years (centuries), but not that much: pitzahuac, "a tree or stick with a thin diameter", or "change (money), vs canactzin, "s.t. thin (except trees and sticks)" nicpitzahua tomin, "I break the money into smaller denominations" nimitzpitzahuilia tomin, "I break the money into smaller denominations for you (I give you change). I don't think there is much difference between a tree that (grammatically) has become thin, and money that has become thin. John On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:56 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: > · Pitzahua, > John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give change. > Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. > Karttunen: to get thin > Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. > · Chapolin, > Grasshopper or cricket? > The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a very devastating insect. > The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male one makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his 11th Book pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town like Chapoltepec was found on a mountain full of devastating grasshoppers? > The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator or the campestris? > · Cactli, shoe (Launey). > Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. > It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John Bierhorst > Lahun Ik 62 > Baert Georges > Flanders Fields > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 28 22:04:19 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:04:19 -0400 Subject: A few words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting John Sullivan : > Piyali Baert, > First of all the dictionary I made available has only about 1000 of > the 7000 headwords that are in our dictionary. The full list will be > available by the end of this next school year. > In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl shoe is "tecactli", my shoe, "notecac". > Michael, yes the language has evolved over the years (centuries), > but not that much: > pitzahuac, "a tree or stick with a thin diameter", or "change > (money), vs canactzin, "s.t. thin (except trees and sticks)" > nicpitzahua tomin, "I break the money into smaller denominations" > nimitzpitzahuilia tomin, "I break the money into smaller > denominations for you (I give you change). > I don't think there is much difference between a tree that > (grammatically) has become thin, and money that has become thin. Good points, John. And I agree wholeheartedly on these forms and meanings (although I'd say we could have a hearty discussion about how much the language has changed in 500 years. :-) What I meant to refer to was the *abstract* meaning it had acquired in the modern language rather than the literal meaning. When you break a ten dollar bill, the ten dollar bill in your hand isn't divided into smaller parts. That's what I was talking about, albeit unclearly. Michael > John > > On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:56 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: > >> · Pitzahua, >> John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give change. >> Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. >> Karttunen: to get thin >> Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out >> slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant >> Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. >> · Chapolin, >> Grasshopper or cricket? >> The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a >> very devastating insect. >> The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male >> one makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his >> 11th Book pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town >> like Chapoltepec was found on a mountain full of devastating >> grasshoppers? >> The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator >> or the campestris? >> · Cactli, shoe (Launey). >> Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. >> It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John Bierhorst >> Lahun Ik 62 >> Baert Georges >> Flanders Fields >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 23:03:41 2010 From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:03:41 -0700 Subject: A few words In-Reply-To: <20100728180419.mezg9vbzkssgs40o@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I've been wondering (for European art history projects) about what might be a related question: why is it that acatl is often translated (as in 1-cana or 1-reed), while Tollan/Toltec/tule fog are explained (they all relate to "reed") but not translated? I wonder if it has to do with concerns about how to translate or paraphrase Bible stories, most importantly the finding of Moses, and comparisons to Egypt. Saint Jerome followed the Septuagint and used the Greek word papyrus in Exodus 2 for what are just reeds in other versions, that is the Egyptian plant used to make paper for writing, not the ordinary cane (cana) used for fishing poles etc. that appears in other places in the Vulgate. So I wonder if acatl was regarded as an ordinary reed and tule has a more special significance, not to be confused with either Egyptian or ordinary plants. I wonder if the words for cricket and locust are similar, since calling something a locust would imply a comparison to the plagues of Egypt. For context, there's a facsimile reprint of Petrus Martyr de Angleria, Opera: Legatio Babylonica, De Orbe Novo Decades Octo, Opus Epistolarum, 1966, Graz. It's the size of a telephone book and all in Latin, but it's really amazing that the firsthand account of a trip to Egypt was published together in the same volume with some of the secondhand accounts in the Decades in 1516, and with all of the decades in 1530. There's a translation of the Egyptian part (Legatio Babylonica) into Spanish that I haven't been able to find. But having the Legatio Babylonica in the same volume with the Decades must have encouraged comparisons of all kinds. Meanwhile the Complutensian Polyglot Bible encouraged comparing translations, with the Vulgate in the center and the Hebrew and Greek on either side, so readers who could follow the text in three languages could see what was going on word by word. Not that people compiling Nahuatl dictionaries read all this, but they were certainly in contact with scholars who did. On the American side, missionaries might not have wanted to imply Moses was found among some ordinary reeds and there was a plague of noisy crickets.--susan gilchrist On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Quoting John Sullivan : > > > Piyali Baert, > > First of all the dictionary I made available has only about 1000 of > > the 7000 headwords that are in our dictionary. The full list will be > > available by the end of this next school year. > > In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl shoe is "tecactli", my shoe, "notecac". > > Michael, yes the language has evolved over the years (centuries), > > but not that much: > > pitzahuac, "a tree or stick with a thin diameter", or "change > > (money), vs canactzin, "s.t. thin (except trees and sticks)" > > nicpitzahua tomin, "I break the money into smaller denominations" > > nimitzpitzahuilia tomin, "I break the money into smaller > > denominations for you (I give you change). > > I don't think there is much difference between a tree that > > (grammatically) has become thin, and money that has become thin. > > Good points, John. And I agree wholeheartedly on these forms and > meanings (although I'd say we could have a hearty discussion about how > much the language has changed in 500 years. :-) > > What I meant to refer to was the *abstract* meaning it had acquired in > the modern language rather than the literal meaning. When you break a > ten dollar bill, the ten dollar bill in your hand isn't divided into > smaller parts. That's what I was talking about, albeit unclearly. > > Michael > > > John > > > > On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:56 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: > > > >> · Pitzahua, > >> John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give > change. > >> Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. > >> Karttunen: to get thin > >> Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out > >> slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant > >> Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. > >> · Chapolin, > >> Grasshopper or cricket? > >> The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a > >> very devastating insect. > >> The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male > >> one makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his > >> 11th Book pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town > >> like Chapoltepec was found on a mountain full of devastating > >> grasshoppers? > >> The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator > >> or the campestris? > >> · Cactli, shoe (Launey). > >> Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. > >> It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John > Bierhorst > >> Lahun Ik 62 > >> Baert Georges > >> Flanders Fields > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From paul.hudson at udlap.mx Thu Jul 29 20:22:35 2010 From: paul.hudson at udlap.mx (Paul Allen Hudson) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:22:35 -0500 Subject: Sufijos de Posici=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n?= Message-ID: Hi all: I'm trying to figure out the difference between the locative suffixes "in front of" and "behind" in the Náhuat of the Cuetzálan region of the sierra norte of Puebla. For each locative position, there are two suffixes: -ikpan behind ej. noikpan... behind me -lampa behind ej. kallampa...behind the house -ixpan in front of ej. noixpan...in front of me -tenoj in front of ej. kaltenoj...in front of the house Thus far I haven't been able to figure out when to use one and not the other, except for sometimes one or the other does not sound as "correct." Is it a difference between animate and inanimate objects or possible between things that are stationary and things that aren't? Paul Hudson _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jul 30 13:04:54 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:04:54 -0400 Subject: Sufijos de Posici=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n?= In-Reply-To: <60E2B387CE8D0949BC823761E4F9B6955A39CB0863@SRVUDLAEXV03.udla.fundacion.mx> Message-ID: Hard to say, Paul, without more data. Note, however, that in the so-called classical language, certain postpositions have become inalienably associated with certain nouns. That may be the case with your modern dialect. For example, one may just not see -lampa associated with possessive pronouns such as no- even though the structure *nolampa is technically grammatical. Michael Quoting Paul Allen Hudson : > Hi all: > > I'm trying to figure out the difference between the locative suffixes > "in front of" and "behind" in the Náhuat of the Cuetzálan region of > the sierra norte of Puebla. For each locative position, there are two > suffixes: > > -ikpan behind ej. noikpan... behind me > -lampa behind ej. kallampa...behind the house > > -ixpan in front of ej. noixpan...in front of me > -tenoj in front of ej. kaltenoj...in front of the house > > Thus far I haven't been able to figure out when to use one and not > the other, except for sometimes one or the other does not sound as > "correct." Is it a difference between animate and inanimate objects > or possible between things that are stationary and things that aren't? > > > Paul Hudson > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Sat Jul 31 22:16:55 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 00:16:55 +0200 Subject: Special signs Message-ID: Special signs. It is very annoying writing Nahuatl with a modern azerty keyboard. For example the word tocaitl, has a long -o- and a long -a-. Therefore a little marking line should be above the two vowels. Every time one must insert a special sign, working with Words. In fact this is a very old-fashioned rule if I may say. In the Dutch language we have a rule to write long vowels twice. For example: to go = gaan. Tocaitl should be than writing, toocaaitl, and one should no longer open special signs. I don't know if there exist special keyboards with those special signs. Or. Cuix o-ni-n-ix-cuep? Or. Cuix oo-ni-n-ix-cuep? Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Fri Jul 2 15:46:38 2010 From: micc2 at cox.net (mario e. aguilar) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:46:38 -0700 Subject: Huitzilopochtli In-Reply-To: <655508.67274.qm@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Many "new age" Danza Azteca groups will "translate" Nahuatl into what ever they feel is cool. There is a whole sub-culture of psuedo-Nahuatl language "experts" that mix what they think is mesoamerican culture with UFOism, Nostradamus worship, and political ideology to create "our ancient Mexi'ca ways." No amount of scholarly "error pointing" will change their minds; those of us who try to use logic, reason, and empirical data to understand indigenous culture, language and spirituality are seen by these fringe groups (which I gently call my Mexi'ca Nazi brothers), as eur-centric sell-outs. Or on the otherhand they could be a dance group of the "purely comemercial" world. For these groups the more outreageous the claimi to their Aztec blood; the more athletic and showy their dancing, the more they can charge...... Neither of these groups have any real /"esencia/" or /"tradicion"/" in what we know today as La Danza Azteca-Chichimeca-Conchera of central Mexico. I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD www.mexicayotl.net On 6/30/2010 9:13 AM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > --- On Wed, 30/6/10, Leeming, Ben wrote: > > Piyali listeros, here?s an interesting one that has me scratching > my head. > > I just read the following in an article from the Woodburn (OR) > Independent online: > > WOODBURN ? Woodburn?s local Aztec dance group, Danza Azteca > Huitzilopochtli, > > provided a feast for the senses in their performance at Library Park > on June 24. > > The group?s name, Huitzilopochtli, is a Nahuatl word meaning > ?strength of your will.? > > (emphasis mine) > > I can?t for the life of me discern how ?strength of your will? comes > from Huitzilopochtli... > > Any thoughts where this might have come from? > > Here?s the link: > http://www.woodburnindependent.com/news/2010/June/29/News.Briefs/local.aztec.dance.group.to.perform.june.24/news.aspx > > Random guesswork and writing whatever they like to advertize their > group, likeliest. > > Someone better write to them pointing out their error. > > Citlalyani. > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From chelodona at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 16:10:20 2010 From: chelodona at hotmail.com (chelo dona) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:10:20 -0300 Subject: Huitzilopochtli In-Reply-To: <4C2E09DE.7040106@cox.net> Message-ID: Correcto, Mario. Sin embargo lo m?s "intenso" que podr?an hacer ser?a estudiar un profesorado, y "the more they could charge" ser?a recibir un sueldo de una instituci?n. El hombre es un chimpanc? neur?tico, y parte de la locura de cada uno es creer que SU locura es la ?nica posible. Cuando esos chicos creen que pertenecen a otra cultura est?n teniendo una peque?a visi?n de la realidad que no podr?an tener desde un punto de vista acad?mico. Dona Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:46:38 -0700 From: micc2 at cox.net To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Huitzilopochtli Many "new age" Danza Azteca groups will "translate" Nahuatl into what ever they feel is cool. There is a whole sub-culture of psuedo-Nahuatl language "experts" that mix what they think is mesoamerican culture with UFOism, Nostradamus worship, and political ideology to create "our ancient Mexi'ca ways." No amount of scholarly "error pointing" will change their minds; those of us who try to use logic, reason, and empirical data to understand indigenous culture, language and spirituality are seen by these fringe groups (which I gently call my Mexi'ca Nazi brothers), as eur-centric sell-outs. Or on the otherhand they could be a dance group of the "purely comemercial" world. For these groups the more outreageous the claimi to their Aztec blood; the more athletic and showy their dancing, the more they can charge...... Neither of these groups have any real "esencia" or "tradicion"" in what we know today as La Danza Azteca-Chichimeca-Conchera of central Mexico. I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD www.mexicayotl.net On 6/30/2010 9:13 AM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: --- On Wed, 30/6/10, Leeming, Ben wrote: > Piyali listeros, here?s an interesting one that has me scratching my head. > I just read the following in an article from the Woodburn (OR) Independent online: > WOODBURN ? Woodburn?s local Aztec dance group, Danza Azteca Huitzilopochtli, > provided a feast for the senses in their performance at Library Park on June 24. > The group?s name, Huitzilopochtli, is a Nahuatl word meaning ?strength of your will.? > (emphasis mine) > I can?t for the life of me discern how ?strength of your will? comes from Huitzilopochtli... > Any thoughts where this might have come from? > Here?s the link: http://www.woodburnindependent.com/news/2010/June/29/News.Briefs/local.aztec.dance.group.to.perform.june.24/news.aspx Random guesswork and writing whatever they like to advertize their group, likeliest. Someone better write to them pointing out their error. Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _________________________________________________________________ Preparate para un nuevo Hotmail con mucho m?s de lo que tu vida necesita. Ver m?s http://www.nuevohotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Fri Jul 2 21:35:38 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:35:38 +0200 Subject: Huitzilopochtli Message-ID: Huitzilopochtli. A divine name. A tribal God of the Mexicah, leading them from Aztlan to Tenochtitlan. A War God, patron of the young warriors, assuring the captive of prisoners to feed the Sun, Tonatiuh. It's a very particular disturbing God, a demon, tlacatecolotli, the God of bad omen, tetzauhteotl, tetzahuitl. See Sah.1.1. In tlacatecalotl in itoca tetzahuitl Huitzilopochtli, the fearful demon. See J.de Durand Forest, 3rd Relation of Chimalpahin II, 1, 68r. Especially for Woodburn's "Aztec" Dance group who want to strengthen their will, to dance like a fearful demon. Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jul 5 14:00:18 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 10:00:18 -0400 Subject: poem source Message-ID: Can anyone point me to the source of this poem. It's supposed to be from the Nahuatl. Thank you! Michael ===================================== In the house with the tortoise chair she will give birth to the pearl to the beautiful feather in the house of the goddess who sits on a tortoise she will give birth to the necklace of pearls to the beautiful feathers we are there she sits on the tortoise swelling to give us birth on your way on your way child be on your way to me here you whom I made new come here child - come be pearl be beautiful feather _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jbierhorst at aol.com Wed Jul 7 21:42:34 2010 From: jbierhorst at aol.com (jbierhorst at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 17:42:34 -0400 Subject: poem source In-Reply-To: <20100705100018.hhnlqqp9s4k8w80w@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Michael McCafferty, The "poem," very popular on New Age websites, given merely as an "Aztec poem," is from Seler's Gesammelte Abhandlungen, vol. 2, p. 1045: "Im Hause des Schildkrotensitzes ist, kommt sie nieder, gebiert sie die Perle, die Schmuckfeder [...]." Compare Anderson & Dibble Florentine Codex, part 2 (1951 ed.), p. 211: "Song of Aiopechtli. / There in her home [the goddess] Aiopechcatl, with child, gave birth [...]" Probably the source used is Jerome Rothenberg, Shaking the Pumpkin (Anchor 1972), pp. 50 & 407. And the translator is Anselm Hollo (see his page on Wikipedia). Best, John Bierhorst -----Original Message----- From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Mon, Jul 5, 2010 10:00 am Subject: [Nahuat-l] poem source Can anyone point me to the source of this poem. It's supposed to be from the Nahuatl. Thank you! Michael ===================================== In the house with the tortoise chair she will give birth to the pearl to the beautiful feather in the house of the goddess who sits on a tortoise she will give birth to the necklace of pearls to the beautiful feathers we are there she sits on the tortoise swelling to give us birth on your way on your way child be on your way to me here you whom I made new come here child - come be pearl be beautiful feather _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Jul 8 18:01:26 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 14:01:26 -0400 Subject: poem source In-Reply-To: <30870_1278591845_o68CO3aU017466_8CCEC3471ABEF08-325C-1DFD@Webmail-d115.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thank you, John Bierhorst, for your reply. I first saw the poem in 1971 or 72, before there was "New Age," in a book titled_Technicians of the Sacred_, whence I copied it. I came across it the other day and was wondering what the original Nahuatl look like. Best regards, Michael McCafferty Quoting jbierhorst at aol.com: > Dear Michael McCafferty, > > > The "poem," very popular on New Age websites, given merely as an > "Aztec poem," is from Seler's Gesammelte Abhandlungen, vol. 2, p. > 1045: "Im Hause des Schildkrotensitzes ist, kommt sie nieder, gebiert > sie die Perle, die Schmuckfeder [...]." Compare Anderson & Dibble > Florentine Codex, part 2 (1951 ed.), p. 211: "Song of Aiopechtli. / > There in her home [the goddess] Aiopechcatl, with child, gave birth > [...]" Probably the source used is Jerome Rothenberg, Shaking the > Pumpkin (Anchor 1972), pp. 50 & 407. And the translator is Anselm > Hollo (see his page on Wikipedia). > > > Best, > > > John Bierhorst > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Sent: Mon, Jul 5, 2010 10:00 am > Subject: [Nahuat-l] poem source > > > Can anyone point me to the source of this poem. It's supposed to be > from the Nahuatl. Thank you! Michael > > ===================================== > > > In the house with the tortoise chair > she will give birth to the pearl > to the beautiful feather > > in the house of the goddess who sits on a tortoise > she will give birth to the necklace of pearls > to the beautiful feathers we are > > there she sits on the tortoise > swelling to give us birth > > on your way on your way > child be on your way to me here > you whom I made new > > come here child - come be pearl > be beautiful feather > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Tue Jul 27 23:56:32 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:56:32 +0200 Subject: A few words Message-ID: * Pitzahua, John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give change. Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. Karttunen: to get thin Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. * Chapolin, Grasshopper or cricket? The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a very devastating insect. The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male one makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his 11th Book pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town like Chapoltepec was found on a mountain full of devastating grasshoppers? The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator or the campestris? * Cactli, shoe (Launey). Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John Bierhorst Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From nekopixan at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 15:01:44 2010 From: nekopixan at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fernando_P=E9rez?=) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:01:44 -0500 Subject: A few words In-Reply-To: <5FAE222A06F74EADB32B3CE4E2114846@baert> Message-ID: Hello, About the word Cactli (shoe), listen to Launey :P In most modern variants of Nahuatl, they say "cactli" for "shoe". My teachers are native, and they do use the word in class and out of class (when I listen to them speaking to each other). On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 6:56 PM, wrote: > ? *Pitzahua,* > > *John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give > change.* > > *Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse.* > > *Karttunen: to get thin* > > *Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out > slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant > Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162.* > > ? *Chapolin,* > > *Grasshopper or cricket?* > > *The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a very > devastating insect.* > > *The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male one > makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his 11th Book > pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town like Chapoltepec > was found on a mountain full of devastating grasshoppers?* > > *The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator or the > campestris?* > > ? *Cactli, shoe (Launey).* > > *Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe.* > > *It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John > Bierhorst * > > *Lahun Ik 62* > > *Baert Georges* > > *Flanders** Fields* > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Fernando P?rez Pe?a Lic. en Idiomas - Traductor Ingl?s, Franc?s, Alem?n, Japon?s, N?huatl, Italiano - Espa?ol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 28 17:24:03 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:24:03 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: A few words Message-ID: Mr. Baert, Quoting lahunik.62 at skynet.be: > * Pitzahua, > > John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give change. > > Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. > > Karttunen: to get thin > > Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out > slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant > Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. Yes. Nice quote. Pitza:hua is classical Nahuatl has two forms, an intransitive form which means, like you say, "to get thin, slender" and a transitive form that means "to make something thin, slender". There is also an intransitive form, pitza:hui, that also means "to get thin". John's modern term involving money seems to derive from classical pitza:hua. It's important to remember that the dialect John works with, from Veracruz, is a *modern* dialect reflecting 500 years of language change. > > * Chapolin, > > Grasshopper or cricket? grasshopper > > The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a very > devastating insect. > > The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male one makes > that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his 11th Book pag > 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town like Chapoltepec was > found on a mountain full of devastating grasshoppers? > > The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator or the > campestris? Molina also gives "langosta" (locust). > > * Cactli, shoe (Launey). > > Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. Molina does. Karttunen's excellent modern dictionary also has the term. I would recommend getting a copy of it. It's very helpful Best, Cacchiuhqui > > It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John Bierhorst > > Lahun Ik 62 > > Baert Georges > > Flanders Fields > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Jul 28 18:41:31 2010 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:41:31 +0200 Subject: A few words Message-ID: You might already know that "chapolin" is the source for Mexican-spanish "chapul?n", which is a "grillo" or "grasshopper". Not a cricket. (Have you ever eaten baby-chapulines as an appetizer with your tequila or mezcal? they are dried, roasted and covered with chilli powder and salt, and people say they are delicious. I am a vegetarian so I could not tell.) "Cactli" appears in Molina, in Remi Simeon and in Karttunen. Susana ----- Original Message ----- From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be To: Nahuatl List Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:56 AM Subject: [Nahuat-l] A few words ? Pitzahua, John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give change. Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. Karttunen: to get thin Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. ? Chapolin, Grasshopper or cricket? The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a very devastating insect. The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male one makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his 11th Book pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town like Chapoltepec was found on a mountain full of devastating grasshoppers? The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator or the campestris? ? Cactli, shoe (Launey). Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John Bierhorst Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Jul 28 18:47:50 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:47:50 -0500 Subject: A few words In-Reply-To: <5FAE222A06F74EADB32B3CE4E2114846@baert> Message-ID: Piyali Baert, First of all the dictionary I made available has only about 1000 of the 7000 headwords that are in our dictionary. The full list will be available by the end of this next school year. In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl shoe is "tecactli", my shoe, "notecac". Michael, yes the language has evolved over the years (centuries), but not that much: pitzahuac, "a tree or stick with a thin diameter", or "change (money), vs canactzin, "s.t. thin (except trees and sticks)" nicpitzahua tomin, "I break the money into smaller denominations" nimitzpitzahuilia tomin, "I break the money into smaller denominations for you (I give you change). I don't think there is much difference between a tree that (grammatically) has become thin, and money that has become thin. John On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:56 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: > ? Pitzahua, > John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give change. > Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. > Karttunen: to get thin > Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. > ? Chapolin, > Grasshopper or cricket? > The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a very devastating insect. > The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male one makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his 11th Book pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town like Chapoltepec was found on a mountain full of devastating grasshoppers? > The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator or the campestris? > ? Cactli, shoe (Launey). > Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. > It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John Bierhorst > Lahun Ik 62 > Baert Georges > Flanders Fields > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 28 22:04:19 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:04:19 -0400 Subject: A few words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting John Sullivan : > Piyali Baert, > First of all the dictionary I made available has only about 1000 of > the 7000 headwords that are in our dictionary. The full list will be > available by the end of this next school year. > In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl shoe is "tecactli", my shoe, "notecac". > Michael, yes the language has evolved over the years (centuries), > but not that much: > pitzahuac, "a tree or stick with a thin diameter", or "change > (money), vs canactzin, "s.t. thin (except trees and sticks)" > nicpitzahua tomin, "I break the money into smaller denominations" > nimitzpitzahuilia tomin, "I break the money into smaller > denominations for you (I give you change). > I don't think there is much difference between a tree that > (grammatically) has become thin, and money that has become thin. Good points, John. And I agree wholeheartedly on these forms and meanings (although I'd say we could have a hearty discussion about how much the language has changed in 500 years. :-) What I meant to refer to was the *abstract* meaning it had acquired in the modern language rather than the literal meaning. When you break a ten dollar bill, the ten dollar bill in your hand isn't divided into smaller parts. That's what I was talking about, albeit unclearly. Michael > John > > On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:56 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: > >> ? Pitzahua, >> John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give change. >> Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. >> Karttunen: to get thin >> Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out >> slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant >> Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. >> ? Chapolin, >> Grasshopper or cricket? >> The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a >> very devastating insect. >> The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male >> one makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his >> 11th Book pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town >> like Chapoltepec was found on a mountain full of devastating >> grasshoppers? >> The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator >> or the campestris? >> ? Cactli, shoe (Launey). >> Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. >> It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John Bierhorst >> Lahun Ik 62 >> Baert Georges >> Flanders Fields >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 23:03:41 2010 From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:03:41 -0700 Subject: A few words In-Reply-To: <20100728180419.mezg9vbzkssgs40o@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I've been wondering (for European art history projects) about what might be a related question: why is it that acatl is often translated (as in 1-cana or 1-reed), while Tollan/Toltec/tule fog are explained (they all relate to "reed") but not translated? I wonder if it has to do with concerns about how to translate or paraphrase Bible stories, most importantly the finding of Moses, and comparisons to Egypt. Saint Jerome followed the Septuagint and used the Greek word papyrus in Exodus 2 for what are just reeds in other versions, that is the Egyptian plant used to make paper for writing, not the ordinary cane (cana) used for fishing poles etc. that appears in other places in the Vulgate. So I wonder if acatl was regarded as an ordinary reed and tule has a more special significance, not to be confused with either Egyptian or ordinary plants. I wonder if the words for cricket and locust are similar, since calling something a locust would imply a comparison to the plagues of Egypt. For context, there's a facsimile reprint of Petrus Martyr de Angleria, Opera: Legatio Babylonica, De Orbe Novo Decades Octo, Opus Epistolarum, 1966, Graz. It's the size of a telephone book and all in Latin, but it's really amazing that the firsthand account of a trip to Egypt was published together in the same volume with some of the secondhand accounts in the Decades in 1516, and with all of the decades in 1530. There's a translation of the Egyptian part (Legatio Babylonica) into Spanish that I haven't been able to find. But having the Legatio Babylonica in the same volume with the Decades must have encouraged comparisons of all kinds. Meanwhile the Complutensian Polyglot Bible encouraged comparing translations, with the Vulgate in the center and the Hebrew and Greek on either side, so readers who could follow the text in three languages could see what was going on word by word. Not that people compiling Nahuatl dictionaries read all this, but they were certainly in contact with scholars who did. On the American side, missionaries might not have wanted to imply Moses was found among some ordinary reeds and there was a plague of noisy crickets.--susan gilchrist On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Quoting John Sullivan : > > > Piyali Baert, > > First of all the dictionary I made available has only about 1000 of > > the 7000 headwords that are in our dictionary. The full list will be > > available by the end of this next school year. > > In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl shoe is "tecactli", my shoe, "notecac". > > Michael, yes the language has evolved over the years (centuries), > > but not that much: > > pitzahuac, "a tree or stick with a thin diameter", or "change > > (money), vs canactzin, "s.t. thin (except trees and sticks)" > > nicpitzahua tomin, "I break the money into smaller denominations" > > nimitzpitzahuilia tomin, "I break the money into smaller > > denominations for you (I give you change). > > I don't think there is much difference between a tree that > > (grammatically) has become thin, and money that has become thin. > > Good points, John. And I agree wholeheartedly on these forms and > meanings (although I'd say we could have a hearty discussion about how > much the language has changed in 500 years. :-) > > What I meant to refer to was the *abstract* meaning it had acquired in > the modern language rather than the literal meaning. When you break a > ten dollar bill, the ten dollar bill in your hand isn't divided into > smaller parts. That's what I was talking about, albeit unclearly. > > Michael > > > John > > > > On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:56 PM, lahunik.62 at skynet.be wrote: > > > >> ? Pitzahua, > >> John Sullivan in his Modern Vocabulary translated this as: to give > change. > >> Molina speaks of: emmagrecerse. > >> Karttunen: to get thin > >> Zan niman tlalli ixco hualpitzahuatiuh ixiuhyo, its foliage come out > >> slender, just on the surface of the ground, is said of the plant > >> Tzatzayanalquiltic, Sah.II.162. > >> ? Chapolin, > >> Grasshopper or cricket? > >> The grasshopper (Gryllus devastator). Like the Latin name says a > >> very devastating insect. > >> The cricket (Gryllus campestris). An insect of the night. The male > >> one makes that typical sound which Sahagun probably mentioned in his > >> 11th Book pag 250. Spring at Chapoltepec. Is it possible that a town > >> like Chapoltepec was found on a mountain full of devastating > >> grasshoppers? > >> The glyph of Chapoltepec shows a Gryllus, but is it the devastator > >> or the campestris? > >> ? Cactli, shoe (Launey). > >> Except Launey no one seems to have a Nahuatl word for shoe. > >> It is not mentioned in Sullivan's Vocabulary, nor in that of John > Bierhorst > >> Lahun Ik 62 > >> Baert Georges > >> Flanders Fields > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From paul.hudson at udlap.mx Thu Jul 29 20:22:35 2010 From: paul.hudson at udlap.mx (Paul Allen Hudson) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:22:35 -0500 Subject: Sufijos de Posici=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n?= Message-ID: Hi all: I'm trying to figure out the difference between the locative suffixes "in front of" and "behind" in the N?huat of the Cuetz?lan region of the sierra norte of Puebla. For each locative position, there are two suffixes: -ikpan behind ej. noikpan... behind me -lampa behind ej. kallampa...behind the house -ixpan in front of ej. noixpan...in front of me -tenoj in front of ej. kaltenoj...in front of the house Thus far I haven't been able to figure out when to use one and not the other, except for sometimes one or the other does not sound as "correct." Is it a difference between animate and inanimate objects or possible between things that are stationary and things that aren't? Paul Hudson _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jul 30 13:04:54 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:04:54 -0400 Subject: Sufijos de Posici=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n?= In-Reply-To: <60E2B387CE8D0949BC823761E4F9B6955A39CB0863@SRVUDLAEXV03.udla.fundacion.mx> Message-ID: Hard to say, Paul, without more data. Note, however, that in the so-called classical language, certain postpositions have become inalienably associated with certain nouns. That may be the case with your modern dialect. For example, one may just not see -lampa associated with possessive pronouns such as no- even though the structure *nolampa is technically grammatical. Michael Quoting Paul Allen Hudson : > Hi all: > > I'm trying to figure out the difference between the locative suffixes > "in front of" and "behind" in the N?huat of the Cuetz?lan region of > the sierra norte of Puebla. For each locative position, there are two > suffixes: > > -ikpan behind ej. noikpan... behind me > -lampa behind ej. kallampa...behind the house > > -ixpan in front of ej. noixpan...in front of me > -tenoj in front of ej. kaltenoj...in front of the house > > Thus far I haven't been able to figure out when to use one and not > the other, except for sometimes one or the other does not sound as > "correct." Is it a difference between animate and inanimate objects > or possible between things that are stationary and things that aren't? > > > Paul Hudson > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Sat Jul 31 22:16:55 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 00:16:55 +0200 Subject: Special signs Message-ID: Special signs. It is very annoying writing Nahuatl with a modern azerty keyboard. For example the word tocaitl, has a long -o- and a long -a-. Therefore a little marking line should be above the two vowels. Every time one must insert a special sign, working with Words. In fact this is a very old-fashioned rule if I may say. In the Dutch language we have a rule to write long vowels twice. For example: to go = gaan. Tocaitl should be than writing, toocaaitl, and one should no longer open special signs. I don't know if there exist special keyboards with those special signs. Or. Cuix o-ni-n-ix-cuep? Or. Cuix oo-ni-n-ix-cuep? Lahun Ik 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl