From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 3 03:03:02 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 21:03:02 -0600 Subject: Chicomexochitl video Message-ID: Listeros, Please check out this video about the Chicomexochitl deity, make by John Garcia, one of our students from CSU Dominguez Hills, and Eduardo de la Cruz Cruz, one of our instructors at IDIEZ. It is based on a story told to Eduardo when he was a child. Here is the link http://www.facebook.com/l/e56bbcOR5bs6Z7Dou0psWQB0Tpg;www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmuJaJN7-kU John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 3 16:58:39 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 12:58:39 -0400 Subject: Chicomexochitl video In-Reply-To: <40F46A55-2420-4A0D-94BC-06169AE27744@me.com> Message-ID: Thanks, John. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Listeros, > Please check out this video about the Chicomexochitl deity, make by > John Garcia, one of our students from CSU Dominguez Hills, and > Eduardo de la Cruz Cruz, one of our instructors at IDIEZ. It is based > on a story told to Eduardo when he was a child. Here is the link > http://www.facebook.com/l/e56bbcOR5bs6Z7Dou0psWQB0Tpg;www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmuJaJN7-kU > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Nov 3 23:28:45 2010 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 19:28:45 -0400 Subject: Chicomexochitl video In-Reply-To: <40F46A55-2420-4A0D-94BC-06169AE27744@me.com> Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I *think* I've seen something somewhere sometime (maybe) that would help with my present problem, but who knows when my memory will start to function and help me with a solution, so I need help. You're probably familiar with "xopilli" (abstractly, since in principle it is inalienable and normally occurs with a possessive prefix): texopil, noxopil, etc. And you may have visited the town of Tejupilco on the highway south of Toluca. Again, my memory doesn't tell me whether the figure at the entrance to the town is a stone foot or (most likely) a big stone toe. But my question for y'all is whether you have seen "xopilli" used to mean 'scoop' (or derivations like "nicxopiloa", 'I scoop it'). Thanks in anticipation, Joe Florentine Examples: coxopiloa** 1. auh in ihcuac ye tetlahuantiz, *coxopiloa* tetlahuanhuantica in octli,. and when they were to have someone drink, they dipped up the pulque with the drinking vessels. (b.2 f.12 p.196). coxxopiloa** 2. ic *coxxopiloa* in tletl, oncan conteca in iztac copalli, yehhuatl in tzihuaccopalli, in huel yaque in amo tlazollo, in amo teuhyo, in huel chipahuac,. with it they scooped up fire on which they spread white copal; this was the torchwood copal, the legitimate, the odoriferous, with no rubbish nor dirt; very clear. (b.9 f.3 p.37). iztaxopilli** 3. quinamaca iztayahualli, *iztaxopilli*, iztacomitl, tilahuac chipahuac, nacatic, chimaltizatic, huelic, ahuiyac, nexcococ, chichic, itztoncuahuitl, acecec, acecepatic, poec, poeltic, poelpatic, popoyec,. he sells salt balls, salt bars, salt ollas -- thick, clean, full-bodied; like white chalk; of good taste, savory; tasting of lime, bitter... tasteless, insipid, salt, salty, very salty, briny. (b.10 f.5 p.84). oconxopiloque** 4. in *oconxopiloque*, niman ic contema copalli, ic hualquiza in iixpan diablo: anozo in ithualnepantla, in oncan icac tlecuaztli:. when they had scooped them up, then they filled it with copal incense; with it they came forth before the devil or else in the middle of the courtyard, where the brazier stood. (b.2 f.12 p.193). ocoxopilo** 5. auh in teohua niman ye ic concui in atl xoxohuic xicaltica, auh in *ocoxopilo*, atl, ixpan commana,. and the keeper of the god thereupon took up water in a blue gourd vessel, and when he had drawn the water, he laid it down before [the figure of the god]. (b.3 f.1 p.8). quetzalxopilli** 6. mani *quetzalxopilli*, coztic teocuitlayo,. [there was] a quetzal feather claw, with gold. (b.8 f.2 p.34). quinxopiloa** 7. auh in ye iuhqui nec *quinxopiloa*, quincuitlaxeloa in quexquich calitic momantiquiz,. and when this happened, [the mexicans] fell upon them, they threw themselves upon them so that all speedily would be enclosed within them. (b.12 f.5 p.78). quinxopiloznequi** 8. auh in ihcuac ye no hualtetoca in cahuallosme, in ye no *quinxopiloznequi*, in ye quinyacatzacuiliznequi: ompa cacalactihuetzi in tiacahuan.. and when the horse[men] followed after one, when they tried to kick them, when they tried to get ahead of them, the brave warriors each quickly entered. (b.12 f.7 p.108). quixopilotihuetzi** 9. niman *quixopilotihuetzi* in tlexochtli, in tletl: niman contentihuetzi in iyauhtli, za mixcahuia:. then he quickly scooped up the burning embers, the fire; he then quickly put on yauhtli, only this did he do. (b.2 f.9 p.150). tlaxoxopiltectli** 10. auh in icoanacoch itech pipilcac in huitznahuayotl, teocuitlatl xoxopiltic, *tlaxoxopiltectli*,. and from the serpent ear plug hung the golden ring of thorns, with toes -- cut in the form of toes. (b.12 f.3 p.52). tohueixopil** 11. oncan in *tohueixopil* itzalan, in oncan nepanihui ezcocotli, oncan in mozoz, inic amo tlanahuiz, palaniz:. there between the great toe [and the second toe], there where the vessels join, it is bled in order that it may not worsen, [not] become festered. (b.10 f.9 p.161). toxopilomio** 12. *toxopilomio*. our toe bone (b.10 f.7 p.128b). xopilcozque** 13. *xopilcozque*,. he had a necklace of rock crystal. (b.1 f.2 p.36). xopilihui** 14. *xopilihui*. it is toe-like (b.10 f.6 p.99b). 15. *xopilihui*. it becomes toe-like (b.10 f.7 p.128b). xopilli** 16. *xopilli*. toe (b.10 f.7 p.127a). 17. huei *xopilli*. big toe (b.10 f.7 p.127a). 18. huallatoquilia *xopilli*. following toes (b.10 f.7 p.127a). 19. *xopilli* intech tlahuicollotilo. it is looped to toes (b.10 f.7 p.127b). 20. *xopilli*. toe (b.10 f.7 p.128b). xopilnacatl** 21. *xopilnacatl*. flesh of the toe (b.10 f.6 p.96a). xopiltic** 22. ololtic, mimiltic, pechtic, apechtli, teololtic, patztic *xopiltic*, icxe, huicollo, piazyo xicalhuicolli, xicalapilolli, atlihuani, tlaihuani, tzohhuacalli, xicalpechtli, nematequilxicalli, achihualxicalli, xicaltecomatl,. [he sells them] round, cylindrical, flat-based, pointed-based, circular, constricted; with legs, feet, handles, spouts; [he sells] small pitchers, [ordinary] pitchers, vessels for drinking water, drinking vessels, atole vessels, shallow gourd bowls, gourd bowls for washing the hands, bowls for cacao, gourd jars. (b.10 f.5 p.78). 23. *xopiltic*. toe-like (b.10 f.6 p.99a). 24. *xopiltic*. toe-like (b.10 f.7 p.128a). 25. inin tezcatl, cequi yahualtic, cequi *xopiltic*: quilhuia acaltezcatl,. of these mirrors, one is round; one is long: they call it acaltezcatl. (b.11 f.22 p.228). xopiltzatzapal** 26. hualxoxoleuhtiaz mapiltzatzapal, *xopiltzatzapal* in quizaquiuh:. it will cause it to be feeble; it will come forth with lamed fingers [and] toes. (b.6 f.12 p.143). 27. *xopiltzatzapal*. short-toed (b.10 f.8 p.137a). xopiltzontli** 28. *xopiltzontli*. hair of the toe (b.10 f.8 p.137a). xopilxocoyotl** 29. *xopilxocoyotl*. little toe (b.10 f.7 p.127a). xoxopiltic** 30. auh in icoanacoch itech pipilcac in huitznahuayotl, teocuitlatl *xoxopiltic*, tlaxoxopiltectli,. and from the serpent ear plug hung the golden ring of thorns, with toes -- cut in the form of toes. (b.12 f.3 p.52). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Sat Nov 6 01:24:52 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 02:24:52 +0100 Subject: Xopilli Message-ID: * Xopil: Dedo grande del pie, Molina 2, fol.37r. A Mexican, mentioned in the story of the origin of Tenochtitlan, Chim.3.60 (Year 1326, three rabbit). * Xopilli: Toe, Sah.10.127 and 128. Hueyi xopilli, big toe, Sah.10.127. Dedo del pie, Molina 1, fol.37r and Molina 2, fol.161r. * Xopiloa: - Quicuitiquizah in tlemaitl ic conxopiloah in tletl. They took the incense ladle, with it they scoop up the fire. Sah.9.37. - Quixopilohtihuetzi in tlexochtli, in tletl. He scoops up the hot coal. Sah.2, 151. - In oconxopilohque. When they have scooped up (the hot coal). Sah 2, 194. - Coxopiloah tetlahuanhuantica in octli. They scoop up the pulque with drinking vessels. Sah.2.196 (coxopiloa). Lahun ik. 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Nov 9 19:24:21 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 13:24:21 -0600 Subject: article on sacred landscape Message-ID: Listeros, In case anyone is interested in a great article on Mesoamerican sacred landscape, go to http://public.me.com/idiez and dowload the file "García Zambrano 2007". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 10 05:03:05 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:03:05 -0600 Subject: elotlah huan elohtla Message-ID: Listeros, Something interesting came up today at IDIEZ. We were working on defining the word "elotlah" (elo-tl, -tlah), "a field with many elotes." And the macehualmeh kept pronouncing it "elohtla." So we figured out that there is indeed the "elotlah" with the relational "-tlah," but there is also an "elohtla" that is made up of "elotl + ya." You linguists can explain this better, but it looks like the "y" is being turned into a "tl", and then the first "tl" in the sequence is being reduced to an "h" (aspiration). This also happens when "ya" is added to a word ending in "c". So itztoc, "it is", + "ya" goes to "itztocca", "it now is," where the first "c" is pronounced like an "h" (aspiration). "Elohtla" means "There are elotes now" The "ye", "now, already" of Classical is "ya" in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl and it never appears independently, rather it's always suffixed to words. It's also interesting (I think I already talked about this on the list) that the "ya" can be suffixed to verbs and nouns. So..... 1. Nichoca, "I'm crying" 2. Nichocaya, "I'm crying now" 3. Nichocayaya, "I was crying" 4. Nichocayayaya, "I was already crying" 5. Nitetahtzin, "I'm an old man" 6. Nitetahtzinya, "I'm an old man now" John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 10 14:48:36 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:48:36 -0600 Subject: maquilia Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Wed Nov 10 05:52:37 2010 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 00:52:37 -0500 Subject: elotlah huan elohtla In-Reply-To: <3FF2FC22-CD0A-4C8B-9AC1-544735C0629B@me.com> Message-ID: What you are describing seems quite interesting from a phonological point of view. It looks like when you have a word (generally, ...VC) ending in a non-continuant consonant suffixed with -ya, you end up with ...VhCa. Can you come up with more examples? Is this attested in other dialects? Without knowing better, I would guess that the process might at some earlier point been phonologically "natural," but has now become more abstract (maybe at a time when /h/ was pronounced as a glottal stop, the first of two identical stop consonants meeting at a word boundary got neutralized to [ʔ], and then the sound change which changed the glottal stop to fricative [h] affected this place too) On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 12:03 AM, John Sullivan wrote: > Listeros, > Something interesting came up today at IDIEZ. We were working on defining > the word "elotlah" (elo-tl, -tlah), "a field with many elotes." And the > macehualmeh kept pronouncing it "elohtla." So we figured out that there is > indeed the "elotlah" with the relational "-tlah," but there is also an > "elohtla" that is made up of "elotl + ya." You linguists can explain this > better, but it looks like the "y" is being turned into a "tl", and then the > first "tl" in the sequence is being reduced to an "h" (aspiration). This > also happens when "ya" is added to a word ending in "c". So itztoc, "it is", > + "ya" goes to "itztocca", "it now is," where the first "c" is pronounced > like an "h" (aspiration). > "Elohtla" means "There are elotes now" > The "ye", "now, already" of Classical is "ya" in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl > and it never appears independently, rather it's always suffixed to words. > It's also interesting (I think I already talked about this on the list) that > the "ya" can be suffixed to verbs and nouns. So..... > 1. Nichoca, "I'm crying" > 2. Nichocaya, "I'm crying now" > 3. Nichocayaya, "I was crying" > 4. Nichocayayaya, "I was already crying" > 5. Nitetahtzin, "I'm an old man" > 6. Nitetahtzinya, "I'm an old man now" > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Professor of Nahua language and culture > > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > > Centro Histórico > > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > > Mexico > > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From brokaw at buffalo.edu Wed Nov 10 15:23:41 2010 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:23:41 -0500 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I'm sure you already considered this, but it looks to me like it is the applicative/benefactive form of "maca" (to give). I assume that you are asking because the well-established meaning of "maca" as "to give" doesn't seem to be consistent with the meaning "to hit," which I assume is based on the contemporary usage of the native speakers you are working with. If that is the case, my guess would be that this meaning "to hit" is a transference from the Spanish "dar," which, of course, can have that meaning. Galen On 11/10/2010 9:48 AM, John Sullivan wrote: > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit > s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Professor of Nahua language and culture > > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > > Centro Histórico > > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > > Mexico > > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > > idiez at me.com > > www.macehualli.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 10 15:30:50 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:30:50 -0500 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting John Sullivan : > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit > s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? > John > I'm sorry, John. I don't know the expression. Is the first /a(a)/ long or short? And by "constructed," do you mean what are its component morphemes? Unless it is somehow an extension of the meaning of 'give', with short /a/, then it would seem to be ma:(itl) + aqui + -lia Ahmo nicmati. Michael > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 10 16:23:49 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:23:49 -0600 Subject: re maquilia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, Galen and Michael, I can't find maquilia in any of the standard Classical dictionaries, so it's probably from the Spanish. Ma:itl+aqui would be nice except for the fact that the first "a" in maquilia isn't long. I guess the only strange thing is how the native speakers got their heads around the idea of a triple object verb, maquilia, being used to refer to a single object action. John On Nov 10, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Isn't it just the applicative of "maca" "give"? > > In Hueyapan Nahuatl maca means both to hit and to give (as it does also in Spanish) when it is made applicative it further mimics the spanish construction where the object of a hitting action is not a direct object but a dative. > > > Magnus > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: John Sullivan > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:48:36 -0600 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] maquilia > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > Graduate student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > US: 001 401 651 8413 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 10 17:21:14 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:21:14 -0500 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: <4CDAB8FD.6040707@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: I think Galen has hit the nail on the tzontecomatzinco, i.e., that maquilia meaning 'hit' is a borrowing from Spanish. (English also has "to give it to someone" meaning "hit".) Does this meaning of the verb maca ever occur in Classical Nahuatl? Anyone ever seen it? Michael Quoting Galen Brokaw : > John, > > I'm sure you already considered this, but it looks to me like it is the > applicative/benefactive form of "maca" (to give). I assume that you are > asking because the well-established meaning of "maca" as "to give" > doesn't seem to be consistent with the meaning "to hit," which I assume > is based on the contemporary usage of the native speakers you are > working with. If that is the case, my guess would be that this meaning > "to hit" is a transference from the Spanish "dar," which, of course, can > have that meaning. > > Galen > > > On 11/10/2010 9:48 AM, John Sullivan wrote: >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit >> s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> >> Professor of Nahua language and culture >> >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >> >> Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> >> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >> >> Centro Histórico >> >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> >> Mexico >> >> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> >> Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) >> >> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> >> Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >> >> idiez at me.com >> >> www.macehualli.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Nov 10 18:14:08 2010 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:14:08 -0500 Subject: re maquilia? In-Reply-To: <459271F3-BD5E-4AB0-A983-04A95D98A985@me.com> Message-ID: John, Magnus, Galen, Michael, huan nochimeh, I haven't checked "maquilia" yet, but since occurrences of "maca" + [for "benefactive"] (some people follow Andrews in labeling this as 'applicative') are fairly transparent and I have looked at each one carefully, I selected all cases of the intersection (or co-occurrence) and found no instance where any hitting was involved. Examples follow... Joe * maca ben *** amechmomaquilia. he [H.] gives it to you [pl.]. [p42-p54-maca-ben H?] FC. amechmomaquilihtiahqueh. they [H.] went giving it to you [pl.]. [p42- p54-maca-ben-prt1-ti1-yauh1-plur01 aux14a +tia1] FC. amechmomaquiliz. he will give it to you [H., pl.]. [p42-p54-maca-ben-z H1] FC. amechommomaquilihtehuaqueh. they gave it to you [H., pl.] and departed. [p42-o:n-p54-maca-ben-prt1-ti1-e:hua-plur01 aux05] FC. anquimomaquilia. you [pl.] give it to him [H.]. [p22-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. anquimomaquilia. you [pl.] give it to him. [p22-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. maquiliani =cualli yectli quimote. dador delos bienes o dela gracia. [cualli ye:ctli p33-p54-p52-maca-ben-ni1] 55m-4. maquiliani =cualli yectli quimote. dador delos bienes espirituales y temporales. [cualli ye:ctli p33-p54-p52-maca-ben-ni1] 71m1-6. mitzalmomaquilia. he [H.] gives it to you. [p32-hua:l-p54-maca-ben H1 +tzw>tz] FC. mitzmomaquili. . [p32-p54-maca-ben-opt H1] FC. mitzmomaquilia. they give it to you [H.]. [p32-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. mitzmomaquilih. he [H.] gave it to you. [p32-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. mitzmopilmaquilia. they deliver a child to you [H.]. [p32-p54-pilli- maca-ben H1] FC. mitzommomaquiliz. he [H.] will give it to you. [p32-o:n-p54-maca-ben-z H1] FC. motetlamamaquilia. he [H.] gives gifts to someone. [p54-p52-p51-dupl- maca-ben H1] FC. motetlamamaquilia. he [H.] gives someone gifts. [p54-p52-p51-dupl-maca- ben H1] FC. namechnomaquiliz. I [H.] shall give it to you [pl.]. [p11-p42-p54-maca- ben-z H1] FC. nechmaquilia. . [p31-maca-ben] FC. nechmomaquiliz. he [H.] will give it to me. [p31-p54-maca-ben-z H01] FC. nemactilia =techmo=. dotarnos, o hazernos mercedes alguno. [p41-p54- p53-maca-l2-v04-ben] 71m2-11. nemaquililo. . [p53-maca-ben-lo:2] FC. nicnomaquilia. I give it to him [H.]. [p11-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. ocommomaquiliz. . [o:n-p54-maca-ben-z] FC. omitzommomaquilihqueh. they gave it to you. [o:-p32-o:n-p54-maca-ben- prt1-plur01 H1] FC. onechmomaquilih. he [H.] gave it to me. [o:-p31-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. otechmomaquilitzino. he [H.] gave it to us. [o:-p41-p54-maca-ben-- H?] FC. oticmomaquilih. you [H.] gave it to him. [o:-p12-p33-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. oticmomaquilih. you gave it to him [H.]. [o:-p12-p33-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. quimmomaquilia. he [H.] gives it to them. [p43-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. quimmomaquiliznequi. he [H.] wants to give it to them. [p43-p54-maca- ben-z-nequi H1] FC. quimmotlamamaquilih. he [H.] granted something to them. [p43-p54-p51- dupl-maca-ben-prt1] FC. quimomaquilia. he [H.] gives it to him. [p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. quimomaquilih. he [H.] gave it to her. [p33-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. quimomaquiliznequi. he [H.] wishes to give it to him. [p33-p54-maca- ben-z-nequi H1] FC. quimotlamamaquiliz. . [p33-p54-p51-dupl-maca-ben-z H1] FC. tamechtoconemaquilia. we give you [H., pl.] our child. [p21-p42-p54- cone:tl-maca-ben H1] FC. techmomaquilia. he [H.] gives it to us. [p41-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. techmomaquilih. he [H.] gave it to us. [p41-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. techmomaquiliz. he [H.] will reward us, he [H.] will give it to us. [p41-p54-maca-ben-z H1] FC. techmomaquiliznequi. . [p41-p54-maca-ben-z-nequi H1] FC. tetlatzontequilicatlatquimaquiliztli. sentencia assi. [p52-p51-tzontli- tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca-liz +a>i] 71m1-19. ticmomaquilia. you confide in him [H.]. [p12-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. ticmomaquilia. you give it to him [H.]. [p12-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. ticmomaquilia. you offer it to him [H.]. [p12-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. ticmomaquilico. you [H.] came to give it to him. [p12-p33-p54-maca-ben- dir1b H1] FC. ticmotemaquilia. you [H.] give it to people. [p12-p33-p54-p52-maca-ben H1] FC. tiquimmomaquiliz. you [H.] will give it to them. [p12-p43-p54-maca-ben- z H1] FC. tiquimmotlamamaquilia. you [H.] bequeath something to them. [p12-p43- p54-p51-dupl-maca-ben H1] FC. titechmomaquilia. you [H.] give it to us. [p12-p41-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. tlatzontequilicatlatquimaca =nite=onitetlatzontequilicatlatquimacac. dar a otro alguna hazienda por sentencia el juez. [p11-p52-p51- tzontli-tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca] 71m2-24. tlatzontequilicatlatquimaca =nite=onitetlatzontequilicatlatquimacac. dar alguna hazienda a otro, por sentencia. [p11-p52-p51-tzontli- tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca] 71m2-24. tlatzontequilicatlatquimaca =nite. sentenciando dar. [p11-p52-p51- tzontli-tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca] 71m1-19. tlatzontequilicatlatquimaca =nite. sentenciando dar. [p11-p52-p51- tzontli-tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca] 55m-18. tlatzontequilicatlatquimaquiliztli =te. sentencia enesta manera. [p52- p51-tzontli-tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca-liz +a>i] 55m- 18. tocommomaquiliz. you [H.] will give it to him. [p12-p33-o:n-p54-maca- ben-z H1] FC. xicmomaquili. give [H.] it to him. [p6-p33-p54-maca-ben-opt H1] FC. xicmomaquilican. give [H.] it to him. [p6-p33-p54-maca-ben-plur12 H1] FC. xinechmomaquili. give [H.] it to me. [p6-p31-p54-maca-ben-opt H1] FC. xocommomaquili. offer [H.] it. [p6-p33-o:n-p54-maca-ben-opt H1] FC. word.count: 64 Quoting John Sullivan : > Magnus, Galen and Michael, > I can't find maquilia in any of the standard Classical dictionaries, > so it's probably from the Spanish. Ma:itl+aqui would be nice except > for the fact that the first "a" in maquilia isn't long. I guess the > only strange thing is how the native speakers got their heads around > the idea of a triple object verb, maquilia, being used to refer to a > single object action. > John > > On Nov 10, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > >> Isn't it just the applicative of "maca" "give"? >> >> In Hueyapan Nahuatl maca means both to hit and to give (as it does >> also in Spanish) when it is made applicative it further mimics the >> spanish construction where the object of a hitting action is not a >> direct object but a dative. >> >> >> Magnus >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: John Sullivan >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:48:36 -0600 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] maquilia >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit >> s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua language and culture >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >> Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >> Centro Histórico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> Mexico >> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) >> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Magnus Pharao Hansen >> Graduate student >> Department of Anthropology >> >> Brown University >> 128 Hope St. >> Providence, RI 02906 >> >> magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu >> US: 001 401 651 8413 >> > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 10 20:19:56 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:19:56 -0600 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, Wouldn't your examples be, "nimitznomaquilia" or "nimitzmomaquilia", "I hit you (reverential)"? Or "nimitzmaquilia cuamezah (or whatever you use for table)", "I hit your table"? John On Nov 10, 2010, at 12:32 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Flores Farfán (in cuatreros somos) mentions that in the balsas there is a minimal pair of maka and maga where the one with k is "give" and the one with g is "hit". > > In Hueyapan they don't generally use maquilia for "hit" - they use plain maca (pronounced [maga] whether it means hit or give) sometimes they use yekmaka to specify its hit. In hueyapan maquilia would be the applicative or the honorific form so that nimitzmaquilia could mean "I something to you(R)" or "I hit something of yours (e.g. your child)". > > > What I've heard is a tendency that some of the constructions where Spanish has a seeming extra arguments e.g. in anaphrastic passives "se le parece", "se me vino la idea", the Nahuatl constructions uses the applicative to have the same number of overt arguments as in the Spanish equivalent so you'd have "kinexilia" "he looks like him" or "onechahxilih in idea" - instead of plain "ihkion nesi" or "onikpix in idea". I don't have any good examples in texts at hand - ill send you some if I find ones > > Magnus > > > > On 10 November 2010 12:21, John Sullivan wrote: > Magnus, > Do you have some other example from Hueyapan. I'd really like to see if there are parallels in the Huasteca. > John > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > Graduate student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > US: 001 401 651 8413 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Wed Nov 10 21:07:05 2010 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:07:05 -0500 Subject: re maquilia? In-Reply-To: <459271F3-BD5E-4AB0-A983-04A95D98A985@me.com> Message-ID: Jim Lockhart and I hypothesized that maquilia was a calque on Spanish dar palos, identifiying maca 'to give' with Spanish dar. Fran On Nov 10, 2010, at 11:23 AM, John Sullivan wrote: > Magnus, Galen and Michael, > I can't find maquilia in any of the standard Classical > dictionaries, so it's probably from the Spanish. Ma:itl+aqui would > be nice except for the fact that the first "a" in maquilia isn't > long. I guess the only strange thing is how the native speakers got > their heads around the idea of a triple object verb, maquilia, > being used to refer to a single object action. > John > > On Nov 10, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > >> Isn't it just the applicative of "maca" "give"? >> >> In Hueyapan Nahuatl maca means both to hit and to give (as it does >> also in Spanish) when it is made applicative it further mimics >> the spanish construction where the object of a hitting action is >> not a direct object but a dative. >> >> >> Magnus >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: John Sullivan >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:48:36 -0600 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] maquilia >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to >> hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua language and culture >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >> Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >> Centro Histórico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> Mexico >> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) >> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Magnus Pharao Hansen >> Graduate student >> Department of Anthropology >> >> Brown University >> 128 Hope St. >> Providence, RI 02906 >> >> magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu >> US: 001 401 651 8413 >> > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 10 21:13:14 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:13:14 -0600 Subject: re maquilia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quena cualli mocuamachilia! John Sent from my iPhone On Nov 10, 2010, at 15:07, Frances Karttunen wrote: > Jim Lockhart and I hypothesized that maquilia was a calque on Spanish dar palos, identifiying maca 'to give' with Spanish dar. > > Fran > > > On Nov 10, 2010, at 11:23 AM, John Sullivan wrote: > >> Magnus, Galen and Michael, >> I can't find maquilia in any of the standard Classical dictionaries, so it's probably from the Spanish. Ma:itl+aqui would be nice except for the fact that the first "a" in maquilia isn't long. I guess the only strange thing is how the native speakers got their heads around the idea of a triple object verb, maquilia, being used to refer to a single object action. >> John >> >> On Nov 10, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: >> >>> Isn't it just the applicative of "maca" "give"? >>> >>> In Hueyapan Nahuatl maca means both to hit and to give (as it does also in Spanish) when it is made applicative it further mimics the spanish construction where the object of a hitting action is not a direct object but a dative. >>> >>> >>> Magnus >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: John Sullivan >>> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:48:36 -0600 >>> Subject: [Nahuat-l] maquilia >>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >>> Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? >>> John >>> >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >>> Professor of Nahua language and culture >>> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >>> Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >>> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >>> Centro Histórico >>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >>> Mexico >>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >>> Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) >>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >>> Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >>> idiez at me.com >>> www.macehualli.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Magnus Pharao Hansen >>> Graduate student >>> Department of Anthropology >>> >>> Brown University >>> 128 Hope St. >>> Providence, RI 02906 >>> >>> magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu >>> US: 001 401 651 8413 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From paul.hudson at udlap.mx Thu Nov 11 01:43:32 2010 From: paul.hudson at udlap.mx (Paul Allen Hudson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 01:43:32 +0000 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tayouaj listeros, Harold Key gives "temaga" for the verb pegar in the Náhuatl of the Zacapoaxtla region. Given that it's the only occurrence of "g" I have found in his dictionary, I believe it's safe to assume the word is "temaka," that is, to give (maka) to someone (te), with the direct object apparently established by common usage and, as has already been pointed out, probably similar to the Spanish "dar un golpe/bofetada/paliza/patada" or the English "give it to him," all colloquial expressions for physically beating someone. Also, in the Náhuatl of Zacapoaxtla/Cuetzalan, I have similarly found that the suffix -ilia seems to be added to those verbs that take both direct and indirect objects with the result that the stress falls on the indirect object. For instance, the verb "koua" (buy or to buy) is converted to "kouilia" (buy for someone). I would expect that in some cases this would result in the latter form of the verb gaining a specific meaning, with the direct object being established by common usage as appears to be the case with "maquilia." Hope this helps. Maj nanpaktokej Paul Hudson ________________________________ De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] en nombre de John Sullivan [idiez at me.com] Enviado el: miércoles, 10 de noviembre de 2010 02:48 p.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] maquilia Piyali notequixpoyohuan, Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Fri Nov 12 20:54:53 2010 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amaya) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:54:53 -0600 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John and tocnihuan Listeros. I want to to contribute to the matter by presenting two examples of Cuetzalan-Nahuat 1. There exists the expresion nimitzmagaz/nimitzmagati (I’m going to hit you). I think it comes from maca (give), giving to maca / maga the meaning it may have in Spanish: Te voy a dar de palos; nahuat: Nimitzmagati ica cuohuit. We could say also: “Nimitzcuetaxhuiti” (I’m going to whip you). There is also the word “magüilía”. It is the applicative form of „maga“; e.g. :” Nimitzmagüilía mopilhuan”: I am hitting (to your detriment) your children. 2. Maquilía: a conversation between A and B. A: Yn amame, nimitzinmaquilía. Xiquinyec-ehua, mah amo poliuhtih. I am giving to you, in your own hands, the papers of our concern. Keep then well, they must not get lost. B: Quema, niquintaatiti cualli. Yes, I am going to hide them very well. Moztica. (On next day) A: On yalhua nimitzinmaquili’ ín amame, xinechinmaca. Niquinnequi ica nicchihuaz ce trámite. Give me the papers I handed in to you yesterday. I need them for some proceedings. B: Amo necih yn amame. Amo necih. Ahh, tiquincuito-ia huan ticnequi tinechquehquelittaz. The papers do not appear. .. really they do not appear. Oh, you have already come to pick them up and now you want to make fun of me. According to this, maquilía means something like: give something by putting it in the hands of the person who receives the thing. The composition of the word. It may be: maitl, aqui, lía.= hand, fit/enter/go, particle making transitive a nontransitive verb. E.g. „Tinechmaquilía in xochitl cuacualtzin“ = yo make enter the pretty flower in my hands, i. e. You give me a flower, the pretty one, putting it on my hands. I hope it may be helpfull. Niamechyoltapalohua. Tomas Amaya De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de John Sullivan Enviado el: Miércoles, 10 de Noviembre de 2010 08:49 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] maquilia Piyali notequixpoyohuan, Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cienhuac at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 03:46:39 2010 From: cienhuac at gmail.com (velez ramirez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 21:46:39 -0600 Subject: titeknelti tata Message-ID: Nochimeh Namechmotlahpalhuia Listeros Entre ustedes hay alguno que conozca la expresion(verbo?) Teknelti? usada en el Nahuat de la Sierra Nororiental de Puebla especieficamente Cuezalan. La he escuchado ser usada de una forma empatica y compasiva, como al coprarle algo a alguien que ofrece de casa en casa y tambien de forma un tanto mas de lastima,como que uno dice una incongruencia o incoherencia y asi se le califica. de manera un tanto similar al uso en el español de Mexico, por ejemplo se le dice a alguien pobre pend...iente Un referente para mi seria el uso del motolinia, del nahuatl de la cuenca de Mexico. Alguna idea de su uso y significado? inin matontli cenca namechmotlazohcamachililiz v. velasco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Nov 26 21:07:08 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 15:07:08 -0600 Subject: titeknelti tata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Piyali tocompah, Macehualmeh tlen Chicontepec, Veracruz quitequihuiah "teicneltih" zo "teicneltzin" quemman miqui ce acahya, huan quihtoznequi "tlahtlacoltzin", "pobrecito." John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (en EU) Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org On Nov 25, 2010, at 9:46 PM, velez ramirez wrote: > Nochimeh Namechmotlahpalhuia Listeros > Entre ustedes hay alguno que conozca la expresion(verbo?) Teknelti? usada en el Nahuat de la Sierra Nororiental de Puebla especieficamente Cuezalan. > La he escuchado ser usada de una forma empatica y compasiva, como al coprarle algo a alguien que ofrece de casa en casa > y tambien de forma un tanto mas de lastima,como que uno dice una incongruencia o incoherencia y asi se le califica. > de manera un tanto similar al uso en el español de Mexico, por ejemplo se le dice a alguien pobre pend...iente > Un referente para mi seria el uso del motolinia, del nahuatl de la cuenca de Mexico. > Alguna idea de su uso y significado? > > inin matontli cenca namechmotlazohcamachililiz > v. velasco > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Nov 26 23:29:27 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 17:29:27 -0600 Subject: titeknelti tata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Manuel de la Cruz Cruz quiihtoah pan Chicontepec "teicneltih" huan "teicneltzin" no quimanextia macehualli tlen nelaxtlen quipiya huan macehualli tlen ipilceltzin (axquipiya yon ce iteixmatcauh). Manuel de la Cruz Cruz says that in Chicontepec "teicneltih" and "teicneltzin" also refer to a person who is very poor and a person who has no relatives. John On Nov 25, 2010, at 9:46 PM, velez ramirez wrote: > Nochimeh Namechmotlahpalhuia Listeros > Entre ustedes hay alguno que conozca la expresion(verbo?) Teknelti? usada en el Nahuat de la Sierra Nororiental de Puebla especieficamente Cuezalan. > La he escuchado ser usada de una forma empatica y compasiva, como al coprarle algo a alguien que ofrece de casa en casa > y tambien de forma un tanto mas de lastima,como que uno dice una incongruencia o incoherencia y asi se le califica. > de manera un tanto similar al uso en el español de Mexico, por ejemplo se le dice a alguien pobre pend...iente > Un referente para mi seria el uso del motolinia, del nahuatl de la cuenca de Mexico. > Alguna idea de su uso y significado? > > inin matontli cenca namechmotlazohcamachililiz > v. velasco > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Fri Nov 26 16:40:22 2010 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (t_amaya at megared.net.mx) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:40:22 -0600 Subject: titeknelti tata Message-ID: V. Velasco Una respuesta rápida: la palabra tiene que ver con el tema icn (amigo, hermano; icno cihua: NC=Viuda; nimitzicnelía = te tengo lástima, compasión). Por tanto: te-icnelti = da lástima, compasión (¡pobrecito!) te; persona; icne: de lástima, compasión; lti (part. para compulsivo) teicnelti = hace que las personas sientan compasión de él. Nimitztapalohua Tomas Amaya On Thu 25/11/10 9:46 PM , "velez ramirez" cienhuac at gmail.com sent: Nochimeh Namechmotlahpalhuia Listeros Entre ustedes hay alguno que conozca la expresion(verbo?) Teknelti? usada en el Nahuat de la Sierra Nororiental de Puebla especieficamente Cuezalan. La he escuchado ser usada de una forma empatica y compasiva, como al coprarle algo a alguien que ofrece de casa en casa y tambien de forma un tanto mas de lastima,como que uno dice una incongruencia o incoherencia y asi se le califica. de manera un tanto similar al uso en el español de Mexico, por ejemplo se le dice a alguien pobre pend...iente Un referente para mi seria el uso del motolinia, del nahuatl de la cuenca de Mexico. Alguna idea de su uso y significado? inin matontli cenca namechmotlazohcamachililiz v. velasco ------------------------- Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From brokaw at buffalo.edu Mon Nov 29 20:20:24 2010 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 15:20:24 -0500 Subject: titeknelti tata Message-ID: Es cierta la morfologia de esta palabra? A primera vista la ortografia de la palabra parece indicar una posible relacion con "icnotl" y el diccionario de Karttunnen sugiere tal relacion, la cual supongo podria tener cierto sentido desde la perspectiva de la semantica; pero no me queda claro el mecanismo gramatical que produce el verbo "icnelia" o "icneltia" basandose en "icnotl." Galen Una respuesta rápida: la palabra tiene que ver con el tema icn (amigo, hermano; icno cihua: NC=Viuda; nimitzicnelía = te tengo lástima, compasión). Por tanto: te-icnelti = da lástima, compasión (¡pobrecito!) te; persona; icne: de lástima, compasión; lti (part. para compulsivo) teicnelti = hace que las personas sientan compasión de él. Nimitztapalohua Tomas Amaya _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Nov 29 20:55:39 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 15:55:39 -0500 Subject: Encoded messages Message-ID: Galen Brokaw's message was encoded as it was distributed tot he list. If you could not read the message, you may consult the archives where all messages are archived in plain format: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=NAHUAT-L -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From brokaw at buffalo.edu Mon Nov 29 21:57:03 2010 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:57:03 -0500 Subject: titeknelti tata Message-ID: I sent my message twice trying to fix the problem. Here goes the third time, trying something else. I'm not copying Tomas Amaya's message here, but my message is in response the morphology that he proposed for tecnelti. Es cierta la morfologia de esta palabra? A primera vista la ortografia de la palabra parece indicar una posible relacion con "icnotl" y el diccionario de Kartunnen sugiere tal relacion, la cual supongo podria tener cierto sentido desde la perspectiva de la semantica; pero no me queda claro el mecanismo gramatical que produce el verbo "icnelia" o "icneltia" basandose en el sustantivo "icnotl." Galen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Nov 30 14:42:32 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:42:32 -0500 Subject: Mexican Digital Library Message-ID: Colleagues, CONACULTA has launched a digital library of various codices. You can consult it at: http://bdmx.mx/ It includes a Testerian catechism, some of the codices from the Marquesado del Valle, and other interesting pieces from the early colonial period. Participants include the AGN, the Bibilioteca Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, and the Centro de Estudios de la Historia de Mexico. -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cienhuac at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 17:43:32 2010 From: cienhuac at gmail.com (velez ramirez) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 11:43:32 -0600 Subject: Titeknelti tata Message-ID: Tlazohcamati in amotlanananquiliz Revisando el diccionario 2003 de De Wolf UABCS-UNAM (alguien conoce este diccionario, que les parece?) en la pagina 171 en la columna izquierda se encuentra: compasión; teeicneeliliztli pag 469 columna izquierda: lastimero adj. ; teeicneeltih lastimoso adj.; teeicneeltih v.v. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 3 03:03:02 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 21:03:02 -0600 Subject: Chicomexochitl video Message-ID: Listeros, Please check out this video about the Chicomexochitl deity, make by John Garcia, one of our students from CSU Dominguez Hills, and Eduardo de la Cruz Cruz, one of our instructors at IDIEZ. It is based on a story told to Eduardo when he was a child. Here is the link http://www.facebook.com/l/e56bbcOR5bs6Z7Dou0psWQB0Tpg;www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmuJaJN7-kU John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 3 16:58:39 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 12:58:39 -0400 Subject: Chicomexochitl video In-Reply-To: <40F46A55-2420-4A0D-94BC-06169AE27744@me.com> Message-ID: Thanks, John. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Listeros, > Please check out this video about the Chicomexochitl deity, make by > John Garcia, one of our students from CSU Dominguez Hills, and > Eduardo de la Cruz Cruz, one of our instructors at IDIEZ. It is based > on a story told to Eduardo when he was a child. Here is the link > http://www.facebook.com/l/e56bbcOR5bs6Z7Dou0psWQB0Tpg;www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmuJaJN7-kU > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Nov 3 23:28:45 2010 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 19:28:45 -0400 Subject: Chicomexochitl video In-Reply-To: <40F46A55-2420-4A0D-94BC-06169AE27744@me.com> Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I *think* I've seen something somewhere sometime (maybe) that would help with my present problem, but who knows when my memory will start to function and help me with a solution, so I need help. You're probably familiar with "xopilli" (abstractly, since in principle it is inalienable and normally occurs with a possessive prefix): texopil, noxopil, etc. And you may have visited the town of Tejupilco on the highway south of Toluca. Again, my memory doesn't tell me whether the figure at the entrance to the town is a stone foot or (most likely) a big stone toe. But my question for y'all is whether you have seen "xopilli" used to mean 'scoop' (or derivations like "nicxopiloa", 'I scoop it'). Thanks in anticipation, Joe Florentine Examples: coxopiloa** 1. auh in ihcuac ye tetlahuantiz, *coxopiloa* tetlahuanhuantica in octli,. and when they were to have someone drink, they dipped up the pulque with the drinking vessels. (b.2 f.12 p.196). coxxopiloa** 2. ic *coxxopiloa* in tletl, oncan conteca in iztac copalli, yehhuatl in tzihuaccopalli, in huel yaque in amo tlazollo, in amo teuhyo, in huel chipahuac,. with it they scooped up fire on which they spread white copal; this was the torchwood copal, the legitimate, the odoriferous, with no rubbish nor dirt; very clear. (b.9 f.3 p.37). iztaxopilli** 3. quinamaca iztayahualli, *iztaxopilli*, iztacomitl, tilahuac chipahuac, nacatic, chimaltizatic, huelic, ahuiyac, nexcococ, chichic, itztoncuahuitl, acecec, acecepatic, poec, poeltic, poelpatic, popoyec,. he sells salt balls, salt bars, salt ollas -- thick, clean, full-bodied; like white chalk; of good taste, savory; tasting of lime, bitter... tasteless, insipid, salt, salty, very salty, briny. (b.10 f.5 p.84). oconxopiloque** 4. in *oconxopiloque*, niman ic contema copalli, ic hualquiza in iixpan diablo: anozo in ithualnepantla, in oncan icac tlecuaztli:. when they had scooped them up, then they filled it with copal incense; with it they came forth before the devil or else in the middle of the courtyard, where the brazier stood. (b.2 f.12 p.193). ocoxopilo** 5. auh in teohua niman ye ic concui in atl xoxohuic xicaltica, auh in *ocoxopilo*, atl, ixpan commana,. and the keeper of the god thereupon took up water in a blue gourd vessel, and when he had drawn the water, he laid it down before [the figure of the god]. (b.3 f.1 p.8). quetzalxopilli** 6. mani *quetzalxopilli*, coztic teocuitlayo,. [there was] a quetzal feather claw, with gold. (b.8 f.2 p.34). quinxopiloa** 7. auh in ye iuhqui nec *quinxopiloa*, quincuitlaxeloa in quexquich calitic momantiquiz,. and when this happened, [the mexicans] fell upon them, they threw themselves upon them so that all speedily would be enclosed within them. (b.12 f.5 p.78). quinxopiloznequi** 8. auh in ihcuac ye no hualtetoca in cahuallosme, in ye no *quinxopiloznequi*, in ye quinyacatzacuiliznequi: ompa cacalactihuetzi in tiacahuan.. and when the horse[men] followed after one, when they tried to kick them, when they tried to get ahead of them, the brave warriors each quickly entered. (b.12 f.7 p.108). quixopilotihuetzi** 9. niman *quixopilotihuetzi* in tlexochtli, in tletl: niman contentihuetzi in iyauhtli, za mixcahuia:. then he quickly scooped up the burning embers, the fire; he then quickly put on yauhtli, only this did he do. (b.2 f.9 p.150). tlaxoxopiltectli** 10. auh in icoanacoch itech pipilcac in huitznahuayotl, teocuitlatl xoxopiltic, *tlaxoxopiltectli*,. and from the serpent ear plug hung the golden ring of thorns, with toes -- cut in the form of toes. (b.12 f.3 p.52). tohueixopil** 11. oncan in *tohueixopil* itzalan, in oncan nepanihui ezcocotli, oncan in mozoz, inic amo tlanahuiz, palaniz:. there between the great toe [and the second toe], there where the vessels join, it is bled in order that it may not worsen, [not] become festered. (b.10 f.9 p.161). toxopilomio** 12. *toxopilomio*. our toe bone (b.10 f.7 p.128b). xopilcozque** 13. *xopilcozque*,. he had a necklace of rock crystal. (b.1 f.2 p.36). xopilihui** 14. *xopilihui*. it is toe-like (b.10 f.6 p.99b). 15. *xopilihui*. it becomes toe-like (b.10 f.7 p.128b). xopilli** 16. *xopilli*. toe (b.10 f.7 p.127a). 17. huei *xopilli*. big toe (b.10 f.7 p.127a). 18. huallatoquilia *xopilli*. following toes (b.10 f.7 p.127a). 19. *xopilli* intech tlahuicollotilo. it is looped to toes (b.10 f.7 p.127b). 20. *xopilli*. toe (b.10 f.7 p.128b). xopilnacatl** 21. *xopilnacatl*. flesh of the toe (b.10 f.6 p.96a). xopiltic** 22. ololtic, mimiltic, pechtic, apechtli, teololtic, patztic *xopiltic*, icxe, huicollo, piazyo xicalhuicolli, xicalapilolli, atlihuani, tlaihuani, tzohhuacalli, xicalpechtli, nematequilxicalli, achihualxicalli, xicaltecomatl,. [he sells them] round, cylindrical, flat-based, pointed-based, circular, constricted; with legs, feet, handles, spouts; [he sells] small pitchers, [ordinary] pitchers, vessels for drinking water, drinking vessels, atole vessels, shallow gourd bowls, gourd bowls for washing the hands, bowls for cacao, gourd jars. (b.10 f.5 p.78). 23. *xopiltic*. toe-like (b.10 f.6 p.99a). 24. *xopiltic*. toe-like (b.10 f.7 p.128a). 25. inin tezcatl, cequi yahualtic, cequi *xopiltic*: quilhuia acaltezcatl,. of these mirrors, one is round; one is long: they call it acaltezcatl. (b.11 f.22 p.228). xopiltzatzapal** 26. hualxoxoleuhtiaz mapiltzatzapal, *xopiltzatzapal* in quizaquiuh:. it will cause it to be feeble; it will come forth with lamed fingers [and] toes. (b.6 f.12 p.143). 27. *xopiltzatzapal*. short-toed (b.10 f.8 p.137a). xopiltzontli** 28. *xopiltzontli*. hair of the toe (b.10 f.8 p.137a). xopilxocoyotl** 29. *xopilxocoyotl*. little toe (b.10 f.7 p.127a). xoxopiltic** 30. auh in icoanacoch itech pipilcac in huitznahuayotl, teocuitlatl *xoxopiltic*, tlaxoxopiltectli,. and from the serpent ear plug hung the golden ring of thorns, with toes -- cut in the form of toes. (b.12 f.3 p.52). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lahunik.62 at skynet.be Sat Nov 6 01:24:52 2010 From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (lahunik.62 at skynet.be) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 02:24:52 +0100 Subject: Xopilli Message-ID: * Xopil: Dedo grande del pie, Molina 2, fol.37r. A Mexican, mentioned in the story of the origin of Tenochtitlan, Chim.3.60 (Year 1326, three rabbit). * Xopilli: Toe, Sah.10.127 and 128. Hueyi xopilli, big toe, Sah.10.127. Dedo del pie, Molina 1, fol.37r and Molina 2, fol.161r. * Xopiloa: - Quicuitiquizah in tlemaitl ic conxopiloah in tletl. They took the incense ladle, with it they scoop up the fire. Sah.9.37. - Quixopilohtihuetzi in tlexochtli, in tletl. He scoops up the hot coal. Sah.2, 151. - In oconxopilohque. When they have scooped up (the hot coal). Sah 2, 194. - Coxopiloah tetlahuanhuantica in octli. They scoop up the pulque with drinking vessels. Sah.2.196 (coxopiloa). Lahun ik. 62 Baert Georges Flanders Fields -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Nov 9 19:24:21 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 13:24:21 -0600 Subject: article on sacred landscape Message-ID: Listeros, In case anyone is interested in a great article on Mesoamerican sacred landscape, go to http://public.me.com/idiez and dowload the file "Garc?a Zambrano 2007". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 10 05:03:05 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:03:05 -0600 Subject: elotlah huan elohtla Message-ID: Listeros, Something interesting came up today at IDIEZ. We were working on defining the word "elotlah" (elo-tl, -tlah), "a field with many elotes." And the macehualmeh kept pronouncing it "elohtla." So we figured out that there is indeed the "elotlah" with the relational "-tlah," but there is also an "elohtla" that is made up of "elotl + ya." You linguists can explain this better, but it looks like the "y" is being turned into a "tl", and then the first "tl" in the sequence is being reduced to an "h" (aspiration). This also happens when "ya" is added to a word ending in "c". So itztoc, "it is", + "ya" goes to "itztocca", "it now is," where the first "c" is pronounced like an "h" (aspiration). "Elohtla" means "There are elotes now" The "ye", "now, already" of Classical is "ya" in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl and it never appears independently, rather it's always suffixed to words. It's also interesting (I think I already talked about this on the list) that the "ya" can be suffixed to verbs and nouns. So..... 1. Nichoca, "I'm crying" 2. Nichocaya, "I'm crying now" 3. Nichocayaya, "I was crying" 4. Nichocayayaya, "I was already crying" 5. Nitetahtzin, "I'm an old man" 6. Nitetahtzinya, "I'm an old man now" John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 10 14:48:36 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:48:36 -0600 Subject: maquilia Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From lovegren at buffalo.edu Wed Nov 10 05:52:37 2010 From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 00:52:37 -0500 Subject: elotlah huan elohtla In-Reply-To: <3FF2FC22-CD0A-4C8B-9AC1-544735C0629B@me.com> Message-ID: What you are describing seems quite interesting from a phonological point of view. It looks like when you have a word (generally, ...VC) ending in a non-continuant consonant suffixed with -ya, you end up with ...VhCa. Can you come up with more examples? Is this attested in other dialects? Without knowing better, I would guess that the process might at some earlier point been phonologically "natural," but has now become more abstract (maybe at a time when /h/ was pronounced as a glottal stop, the first of two identical stop consonants meeting at a word boundary got neutralized to [?], and then the sound change which changed the glottal stop to fricative [h] affected this place too) On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 12:03 AM, John Sullivan wrote: > Listeros, > Something interesting came up today at IDIEZ. We were working on defining > the word "elotlah" (elo-tl, -tlah), "a field with many elotes." And the > macehualmeh kept pronouncing it "elohtla." So we figured out that there is > indeed the "elotlah" with the relational "-tlah," but there is also an > "elohtla" that is made up of "elotl + ya." You linguists can explain this > better, but it looks like the "y" is being turned into a "tl", and then the > first "tl" in the sequence is being reduced to an "h" (aspiration). This > also happens when "ya" is added to a word ending in "c". So itztoc, "it is", > + "ya" goes to "itztocca", "it now is," where the first "c" is pronounced > like an "h" (aspiration). > "Elohtla" means "There are elotes now" > The "ye", "now, already" of Classical is "ya" in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl > and it never appears independently, rather it's always suffixed to words. > It's also interesting (I think I already talked about this on the list) that > the "ya" can be suffixed to verbs and nouns. So..... > 1. Nichoca, "I'm crying" > 2. Nichocaya, "I'm crying now" > 3. Nichocayaya, "I was crying" > 4. Nichocayayaya, "I was already crying" > 5. Nitetahtzin, "I'm an old man" > 6. Nitetahtzinya, "I'm an old man now" > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Professor of Nahua language and culture > > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > > Centro Hist?rico > > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > > Mexico > > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Jesse Lovegren Department of Linguistics 645 Baldy Hall office +1 716 645 0136 cell +1 512 584 5468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From brokaw at buffalo.edu Wed Nov 10 15:23:41 2010 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:23:41 -0500 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I'm sure you already considered this, but it looks to me like it is the applicative/benefactive form of "maca" (to give). I assume that you are asking because the well-established meaning of "maca" as "to give" doesn't seem to be consistent with the meaning "to hit," which I assume is based on the contemporary usage of the native speakers you are working with. If that is the case, my guess would be that this meaning "to hit" is a transference from the Spanish "dar," which, of course, can have that meaning. Galen On 11/10/2010 9:48 AM, John Sullivan wrote: > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit > s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Professor of Nahua language and culture > > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > > Centro Hist?rico > > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > > Mexico > > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > > idiez at me.com > > www.macehualli.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 10 15:30:50 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:30:50 -0500 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting John Sullivan : > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit > s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? > John > I'm sorry, John. I don't know the expression. Is the first /a(a)/ long or short? And by "constructed," do you mean what are its component morphemes? Unless it is somehow an extension of the meaning of 'give', with short /a/, then it would seem to be ma:(itl) + aqui + -lia Ahmo nicmati. Michael > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 10 16:23:49 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:23:49 -0600 Subject: re maquilia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, Galen and Michael, I can't find maquilia in any of the standard Classical dictionaries, so it's probably from the Spanish. Ma:itl+aqui would be nice except for the fact that the first "a" in maquilia isn't long. I guess the only strange thing is how the native speakers got their heads around the idea of a triple object verb, maquilia, being used to refer to a single object action. John On Nov 10, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Isn't it just the applicative of "maca" "give"? > > In Hueyapan Nahuatl maca means both to hit and to give (as it does also in Spanish) when it is made applicative it further mimics the spanish construction where the object of a hitting action is not a direct object but a dative. > > > Magnus > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: John Sullivan > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:48:36 -0600 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] maquilia > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > Graduate student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > US: 001 401 651 8413 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 10 17:21:14 2010 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:21:14 -0500 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: <4CDAB8FD.6040707@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: I think Galen has hit the nail on the tzontecomatzinco, i.e., that maquilia meaning 'hit' is a borrowing from Spanish. (English also has "to give it to someone" meaning "hit".) Does this meaning of the verb maca ever occur in Classical Nahuatl? Anyone ever seen it? Michael Quoting Galen Brokaw : > John, > > I'm sure you already considered this, but it looks to me like it is the > applicative/benefactive form of "maca" (to give). I assume that you are > asking because the well-established meaning of "maca" as "to give" > doesn't seem to be consistent with the meaning "to hit," which I assume > is based on the contemporary usage of the native speakers you are > working with. If that is the case, my guess would be that this meaning > "to hit" is a transference from the Spanish "dar," which, of course, can > have that meaning. > > Galen > > > On 11/10/2010 9:48 AM, John Sullivan wrote: >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit >> s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> >> Professor of Nahua language and culture >> >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >> >> Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> >> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >> >> Centro Hist?rico >> >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> >> Mexico >> >> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> >> Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) >> >> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> >> Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >> >> idiez at me.com >> >> www.macehualli.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Nov 10 18:14:08 2010 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:14:08 -0500 Subject: re maquilia? In-Reply-To: <459271F3-BD5E-4AB0-A983-04A95D98A985@me.com> Message-ID: John, Magnus, Galen, Michael, huan nochimeh, I haven't checked "maquilia" yet, but since occurrences of "maca" + [for "benefactive"] (some people follow Andrews in labeling this as 'applicative') are fairly transparent and I have looked at each one carefully, I selected all cases of the intersection (or co-occurrence) and found no instance where any hitting was involved. Examples follow... Joe * maca ben *** amechmomaquilia. he [H.] gives it to you [pl.]. [p42-p54-maca-ben H?] FC. amechmomaquilihtiahqueh. they [H.] went giving it to you [pl.]. [p42- p54-maca-ben-prt1-ti1-yauh1-plur01 aux14a +tia1] FC. amechmomaquiliz. he will give it to you [H., pl.]. [p42-p54-maca-ben-z H1] FC. amechommomaquilihtehuaqueh. they gave it to you [H., pl.] and departed. [p42-o:n-p54-maca-ben-prt1-ti1-e:hua-plur01 aux05] FC. anquimomaquilia. you [pl.] give it to him [H.]. [p22-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. anquimomaquilia. you [pl.] give it to him. [p22-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. maquiliani =cualli yectli quimote. dador delos bienes o dela gracia. [cualli ye:ctli p33-p54-p52-maca-ben-ni1] 55m-4. maquiliani =cualli yectli quimote. dador delos bienes espirituales y temporales. [cualli ye:ctli p33-p54-p52-maca-ben-ni1] 71m1-6. mitzalmomaquilia. he [H.] gives it to you. [p32-hua:l-p54-maca-ben H1 +tzw>tz] FC. mitzmomaquili. . [p32-p54-maca-ben-opt H1] FC. mitzmomaquilia. they give it to you [H.]. [p32-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. mitzmomaquilih. he [H.] gave it to you. [p32-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. mitzmopilmaquilia. they deliver a child to you [H.]. [p32-p54-pilli- maca-ben H1] FC. mitzommomaquiliz. he [H.] will give it to you. [p32-o:n-p54-maca-ben-z H1] FC. motetlamamaquilia. he [H.] gives gifts to someone. [p54-p52-p51-dupl- maca-ben H1] FC. motetlamamaquilia. he [H.] gives someone gifts. [p54-p52-p51-dupl-maca- ben H1] FC. namechnomaquiliz. I [H.] shall give it to you [pl.]. [p11-p42-p54-maca- ben-z H1] FC. nechmaquilia. . [p31-maca-ben] FC. nechmomaquiliz. he [H.] will give it to me. [p31-p54-maca-ben-z H01] FC. nemactilia =techmo=. dotarnos, o hazernos mercedes alguno. [p41-p54- p53-maca-l2-v04-ben] 71m2-11. nemaquililo. . [p53-maca-ben-lo:2] FC. nicnomaquilia. I give it to him [H.]. [p11-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. ocommomaquiliz. . [o:n-p54-maca-ben-z] FC. omitzommomaquilihqueh. they gave it to you. [o:-p32-o:n-p54-maca-ben- prt1-plur01 H1] FC. onechmomaquilih. he [H.] gave it to me. [o:-p31-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. otechmomaquilitzino. he [H.] gave it to us. [o:-p41-p54-maca-ben-- H?] FC. oticmomaquilih. you [H.] gave it to him. [o:-p12-p33-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. oticmomaquilih. you gave it to him [H.]. [o:-p12-p33-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. quimmomaquilia. he [H.] gives it to them. [p43-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. quimmomaquiliznequi. he [H.] wants to give it to them. [p43-p54-maca- ben-z-nequi H1] FC. quimmotlamamaquilih. he [H.] granted something to them. [p43-p54-p51- dupl-maca-ben-prt1] FC. quimomaquilia. he [H.] gives it to him. [p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. quimomaquilih. he [H.] gave it to her. [p33-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. quimomaquiliznequi. he [H.] wishes to give it to him. [p33-p54-maca- ben-z-nequi H1] FC. quimotlamamaquiliz. . [p33-p54-p51-dupl-maca-ben-z H1] FC. tamechtoconemaquilia. we give you [H., pl.] our child. [p21-p42-p54- cone:tl-maca-ben H1] FC. techmomaquilia. he [H.] gives it to us. [p41-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. techmomaquilih. he [H.] gave it to us. [p41-p54-maca-ben-prt1 H1] FC. techmomaquiliz. he [H.] will reward us, he [H.] will give it to us. [p41-p54-maca-ben-z H1] FC. techmomaquiliznequi. . [p41-p54-maca-ben-z-nequi H1] FC. tetlatzontequilicatlatquimaquiliztli. sentencia assi. [p52-p51-tzontli- tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca-liz +a>i] 71m1-19. ticmomaquilia. you confide in him [H.]. [p12-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. ticmomaquilia. you give it to him [H.]. [p12-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. ticmomaquilia. you offer it to him [H.]. [p12-p33-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. ticmomaquilico. you [H.] came to give it to him. [p12-p33-p54-maca-ben- dir1b H1] FC. ticmotemaquilia. you [H.] give it to people. [p12-p33-p54-p52-maca-ben H1] FC. tiquimmomaquiliz. you [H.] will give it to them. [p12-p43-p54-maca-ben- z H1] FC. tiquimmotlamamaquilia. you [H.] bequeath something to them. [p12-p43- p54-p51-dupl-maca-ben H1] FC. titechmomaquilia. you [H.] give it to us. [p12-p41-p54-maca-ben H1] FC. tlatzontequilicatlatquimaca =nite=onitetlatzontequilicatlatquimacac. dar a otro alguna hazienda por sentencia el juez. [p11-p52-p51- tzontli-tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca] 71m2-24. tlatzontequilicatlatquimaca =nite=onitetlatzontequilicatlatquimacac. dar alguna hazienda a otro, por sentencia. [p11-p52-p51-tzontli- tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca] 71m2-24. tlatzontequilicatlatquimaca =nite. sentenciando dar. [p11-p52-p51- tzontli-tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca] 71m1-19. tlatzontequilicatlatquimaca =nite. sentenciando dar. [p11-p52-p51- tzontli-tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca] 55m-18. tlatzontequilicatlatquimaquiliztli =te. sentencia enesta manera. [p52- p51-tzontli-tequi1-ben-prt1-ca:6-p51-itqui-l2-maca-liz +a>i] 55m- 18. tocommomaquiliz. you [H.] will give it to him. [p12-p33-o:n-p54-maca- ben-z H1] FC. xicmomaquili. give [H.] it to him. [p6-p33-p54-maca-ben-opt H1] FC. xicmomaquilican. give [H.] it to him. [p6-p33-p54-maca-ben-plur12 H1] FC. xinechmomaquili. give [H.] it to me. [p6-p31-p54-maca-ben-opt H1] FC. xocommomaquili. offer [H.] it. [p6-p33-o:n-p54-maca-ben-opt H1] FC. word.count: 64 Quoting John Sullivan : > Magnus, Galen and Michael, > I can't find maquilia in any of the standard Classical dictionaries, > so it's probably from the Spanish. Ma:itl+aqui would be nice except > for the fact that the first "a" in maquilia isn't long. I guess the > only strange thing is how the native speakers got their heads around > the idea of a triple object verb, maquilia, being used to refer to a > single object action. > John > > On Nov 10, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > >> Isn't it just the applicative of "maca" "give"? >> >> In Hueyapan Nahuatl maca means both to hit and to give (as it does >> also in Spanish) when it is made applicative it further mimics the >> spanish construction where the object of a hitting action is not a >> direct object but a dative. >> >> >> Magnus >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: John Sullivan >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:48:36 -0600 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] maquilia >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit >> s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua language and culture >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >> Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >> Centro Hist?rico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> Mexico >> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) >> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Magnus Pharao Hansen >> Graduate student >> Department of Anthropology >> >> Brown University >> 128 Hope St. >> Providence, RI 02906 >> >> magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu >> US: 001 401 651 8413 >> > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 10 20:19:56 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:19:56 -0600 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, Wouldn't your examples be, "nimitznomaquilia" or "nimitzmomaquilia", "I hit you (reverential)"? Or "nimitzmaquilia cuamezah (or whatever you use for table)", "I hit your table"? John On Nov 10, 2010, at 12:32 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Flores Farf?n (in cuatreros somos) mentions that in the balsas there is a minimal pair of maka and maga where the one with k is "give" and the one with g is "hit". > > In Hueyapan they don't generally use maquilia for "hit" - they use plain maca (pronounced [maga] whether it means hit or give) sometimes they use yekmaka to specify its hit. In hueyapan maquilia would be the applicative or the honorific form so that nimitzmaquilia could mean "I something to you(R)" or "I hit something of yours (e.g. your child)". > > > What I've heard is a tendency that some of the constructions where Spanish has a seeming extra arguments e.g. in anaphrastic passives "se le parece", "se me vino la idea", the Nahuatl constructions uses the applicative to have the same number of overt arguments as in the Spanish equivalent so you'd have "kinexilia" "he looks like him" or "onechahxilih in idea" - instead of plain "ihkion nesi" or "onikpix in idea". I don't have any good examples in texts at hand - ill send you some if I find ones > > Magnus > > > > On 10 November 2010 12:21, John Sullivan wrote: > Magnus, > Do you have some other example from Hueyapan. I'd really like to see if there are parallels in the Huasteca. > John > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > Graduate student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > US: 001 401 651 8413 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Wed Nov 10 21:07:05 2010 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:07:05 -0500 Subject: re maquilia? In-Reply-To: <459271F3-BD5E-4AB0-A983-04A95D98A985@me.com> Message-ID: Jim Lockhart and I hypothesized that maquilia was a calque on Spanish dar palos, identifiying maca 'to give' with Spanish dar. Fran On Nov 10, 2010, at 11:23 AM, John Sullivan wrote: > Magnus, Galen and Michael, > I can't find maquilia in any of the standard Classical > dictionaries, so it's probably from the Spanish. Ma:itl+aqui would > be nice except for the fact that the first "a" in maquilia isn't > long. I guess the only strange thing is how the native speakers got > their heads around the idea of a triple object verb, maquilia, > being used to refer to a single object action. > John > > On Nov 10, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > >> Isn't it just the applicative of "maca" "give"? >> >> In Hueyapan Nahuatl maca means both to hit and to give (as it does >> also in Spanish) when it is made applicative it further mimics >> the spanish construction where the object of a hitting action is >> not a direct object but a dative. >> >> >> Magnus >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: John Sullivan >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:48:36 -0600 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] maquilia >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to >> hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua language and culture >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >> Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >> Centro Hist?rico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> Mexico >> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) >> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Magnus Pharao Hansen >> Graduate student >> Department of Anthropology >> >> Brown University >> 128 Hope St. >> Providence, RI 02906 >> >> magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu >> US: 001 401 651 8413 >> > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Nov 10 21:13:14 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:13:14 -0600 Subject: re maquilia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quena cualli mocuamachilia! John Sent from my iPhone On Nov 10, 2010, at 15:07, Frances Karttunen wrote: > Jim Lockhart and I hypothesized that maquilia was a calque on Spanish dar palos, identifiying maca 'to give' with Spanish dar. > > Fran > > > On Nov 10, 2010, at 11:23 AM, John Sullivan wrote: > >> Magnus, Galen and Michael, >> I can't find maquilia in any of the standard Classical dictionaries, so it's probably from the Spanish. Ma:itl+aqui would be nice except for the fact that the first "a" in maquilia isn't long. I guess the only strange thing is how the native speakers got their heads around the idea of a triple object verb, maquilia, being used to refer to a single object action. >> John >> >> On Nov 10, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: >> >>> Isn't it just the applicative of "maca" "give"? >>> >>> In Hueyapan Nahuatl maca means both to hit and to give (as it does also in Spanish) when it is made applicative it further mimics the spanish construction where the object of a hitting action is not a direct object but a dative. >>> >>> >>> Magnus >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: John Sullivan >>> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:48:36 -0600 >>> Subject: [Nahuat-l] maquilia >>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >>> Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? >>> John >>> >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >>> Professor of Nahua language and culture >>> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >>> Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >>> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >>> Centro Hist?rico >>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >>> Mexico >>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >>> Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) >>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >>> Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >>> idiez at me.com >>> www.macehualli.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Magnus Pharao Hansen >>> Graduate student >>> Department of Anthropology >>> >>> Brown University >>> 128 Hope St. >>> Providence, RI 02906 >>> >>> magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu >>> US: 001 401 651 8413 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From paul.hudson at udlap.mx Thu Nov 11 01:43:32 2010 From: paul.hudson at udlap.mx (Paul Allen Hudson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 01:43:32 +0000 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tayouaj listeros, Harold Key gives "temaga" for the verb pegar in the N?huatl of the Zacapoaxtla region. Given that it's the only occurrence of "g" I have found in his dictionary, I believe it's safe to assume the word is "temaka," that is, to give (maka) to someone (te), with the direct object apparently established by common usage and, as has already been pointed out, probably similar to the Spanish "dar un golpe/bofetada/paliza/patada" or the English "give it to him," all colloquial expressions for physically beating someone. Also, in the N?huatl of Zacapoaxtla/Cuetzalan, I have similarly found that the suffix -ilia seems to be added to those verbs that take both direct and indirect objects with the result that the stress falls on the indirect object. For instance, the verb "koua" (buy or to buy) is converted to "kouilia" (buy for someone). I would expect that in some cases this would result in the latter form of the verb gaining a specific meaning, with the direct object being established by common usage as appears to be the case with "maquilia." Hope this helps. Maj nanpaktokej Paul Hudson ________________________________ De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] en nombre de John Sullivan [idiez at me.com] Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 10 de noviembre de 2010 02:48 p.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] maquilia Piyali notequixpoyohuan, Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Fri Nov 12 20:54:53 2010 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amaya) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:54:53 -0600 Subject: maquilia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John and tocnihuan Listeros. I want to to contribute to the matter by presenting two examples of Cuetzalan-Nahuat 1. There exists the expresion nimitzmagaz/nimitzmagati (I?m going to hit you). I think it comes from maca (give), giving to maca / maga the meaning it may have in Spanish: Te voy a dar de palos; nahuat: Nimitzmagati ica cuohuit. We could say also: ?Nimitzcuetaxhuiti? (I?m going to whip you). There is also the word ?mag?il?a?. It is the applicative form of ?maga?; e.g. :? Nimitzmag?il?a mopilhuan?: I am hitting (to your detriment) your children. 2. Maquil?a: a conversation between A and B. A: Yn amame, nimitzinmaquil?a. Xiquinyec-ehua, mah amo poliuhtih. I am giving to you, in your own hands, the papers of our concern. Keep then well, they must not get lost. B: Quema, niquintaatiti cualli. Yes, I am going to hide them very well. Moztica. (On next day) A: On yalhua nimitzinmaquili? ?n amame, xinechinmaca. Niquinnequi ica nicchihuaz ce tr?mite. Give me the papers I handed in to you yesterday. I need them for some proceedings. B: Amo necih yn amame. Amo necih. Ahh, tiquincuito-ia huan ticnequi tinechquehquelittaz. The papers do not appear. .. really they do not appear. Oh, you have already come to pick them up and now you want to make fun of me. According to this, maquil?a means something like: give something by putting it in the hands of the person who receives the thing. The composition of the word. It may be: maitl, aqui, l?a.= hand, fit/enter/go, particle making transitive a nontransitive verb. E.g. ?Tinechmaquil?a in xochitl cuacualtzin? = yo make enter the pretty flower in my hands, i. e. You give me a flower, the pretty one, putting it on my hands. I hope it may be helpfull. Niamechyoltapalohua. Tomas Amaya De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de John Sullivan Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 10 de Noviembre de 2010 08:49 a.m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] maquilia Piyali notequixpoyohuan, Does anybody have any ideas about how the word "maquilia," "to hit s.o., an animal or s.t." is constructed? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.) Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cienhuac at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 03:46:39 2010 From: cienhuac at gmail.com (velez ramirez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 21:46:39 -0600 Subject: titeknelti tata Message-ID: Nochimeh Namechmotlahpalhuia Listeros Entre ustedes hay alguno que conozca la expresion(verbo?) Teknelti? usada en el Nahuat de la Sierra Nororiental de Puebla especieficamente Cuezalan. La he escuchado ser usada de una forma empatica y compasiva, como al coprarle algo a alguien que ofrece de casa en casa y tambien de forma un tanto mas de lastima,como que uno dice una incongruencia o incoherencia y asi se le califica. de manera un tanto similar al uso en el espa?ol de Mexico, por ejemplo se le dice a alguien pobre pend...iente Un referente para mi seria el uso del motolinia, del nahuatl de la cuenca de Mexico. Alguna idea de su uso y significado? inin matontli cenca namechmotlazohcamachililiz v. velasco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Nov 26 21:07:08 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 15:07:08 -0600 Subject: titeknelti tata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Piyali tocompah, Macehualmeh tlen Chicontepec, Veracruz quitequihuiah "teicneltih" zo "teicneltzin" quemman miqui ce acahya, huan quihtoznequi "tlahtlacoltzin", "pobrecito." John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (en EU) Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 1 (492) 103-0195 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org On Nov 25, 2010, at 9:46 PM, velez ramirez wrote: > Nochimeh Namechmotlahpalhuia Listeros > Entre ustedes hay alguno que conozca la expresion(verbo?) Teknelti? usada en el Nahuat de la Sierra Nororiental de Puebla especieficamente Cuezalan. > La he escuchado ser usada de una forma empatica y compasiva, como al coprarle algo a alguien que ofrece de casa en casa > y tambien de forma un tanto mas de lastima,como que uno dice una incongruencia o incoherencia y asi se le califica. > de manera un tanto similar al uso en el espa?ol de Mexico, por ejemplo se le dice a alguien pobre pend...iente > Un referente para mi seria el uso del motolinia, del nahuatl de la cuenca de Mexico. > Alguna idea de su uso y significado? > > inin matontli cenca namechmotlazohcamachililiz > v. velasco > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Fri Nov 26 23:29:27 2010 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 17:29:27 -0600 Subject: titeknelti tata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Manuel de la Cruz Cruz quiihtoah pan Chicontepec "teicneltih" huan "teicneltzin" no quimanextia macehualli tlen nelaxtlen quipiya huan macehualli tlen ipilceltzin (axquipiya yon ce iteixmatcauh). Manuel de la Cruz Cruz says that in Chicontepec "teicneltih" and "teicneltzin" also refer to a person who is very poor and a person who has no relatives. John On Nov 25, 2010, at 9:46 PM, velez ramirez wrote: > Nochimeh Namechmotlahpalhuia Listeros > Entre ustedes hay alguno que conozca la expresion(verbo?) Teknelti? usada en el Nahuat de la Sierra Nororiental de Puebla especieficamente Cuezalan. > La he escuchado ser usada de una forma empatica y compasiva, como al coprarle algo a alguien que ofrece de casa en casa > y tambien de forma un tanto mas de lastima,como que uno dice una incongruencia o incoherencia y asi se le califica. > de manera un tanto similar al uso en el espa?ol de Mexico, por ejemplo se le dice a alguien pobre pend...iente > Un referente para mi seria el uso del motolinia, del nahuatl de la cuenca de Mexico. > Alguna idea de su uso y significado? > > inin matontli cenca namechmotlazohcamachililiz > v. velasco > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Fri Nov 26 16:40:22 2010 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (t_amaya at megared.net.mx) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:40:22 -0600 Subject: titeknelti tata Message-ID: V. Velasco Una respuesta r?pida: la palabra tiene que ver con el tema icn (amigo, hermano; icno cihua: NC=Viuda; nimitzicnel?a = te tengo l?stima, compasi?n). Por tanto: te-icnelti = da l?stima, compasi?n (?pobrecito!) te; persona; icne: de l?stima, compasi?n; lti (part. para compulsivo) teicnelti = hace que las personas sientan compasi?n de ?l. Nimitztapalohua Tomas Amaya On Thu 25/11/10 9:46 PM , "velez ramirez" cienhuac at gmail.com sent: Nochimeh Namechmotlahpalhuia Listeros Entre ustedes hay alguno que conozca la expresion(verbo?) Teknelti? usada en el Nahuat de la Sierra Nororiental de Puebla especieficamente Cuezalan. La he escuchado ser usada de una forma empatica y compasiva, como al coprarle algo a alguien que ofrece de casa en casa y tambien de forma un tanto mas de lastima,como que uno dice una incongruencia o incoherencia y asi se le califica. de manera un tanto similar al uso en el espa?ol de Mexico, por ejemplo se le dice a alguien pobre pend...iente Un referente para mi seria el uso del motolinia, del nahuatl de la cuenca de Mexico. Alguna idea de su uso y significado? inin matontli cenca namechmotlazohcamachililiz v. velasco ------------------------- Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From brokaw at buffalo.edu Mon Nov 29 20:20:24 2010 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 15:20:24 -0500 Subject: titeknelti tata Message-ID: Es cierta la morfologia de esta palabra? A primera vista la ortografia de la palabra parece indicar una posible relacion con "icnotl" y el diccionario de Karttunnen sugiere tal relacion, la cual supongo podria tener cierto sentido desde la perspectiva de la semantica; pero no me queda claro el mecanismo gramatical que produce el verbo "icnelia" o "icneltia" basandose en "icnotl." Galen Una respuesta r?pida: la palabra tiene que ver con el tema icn (amigo, hermano; icno cihua: NC=Viuda; nimitzicnel?a = te tengo l?stima, compasi?n). Por tanto: te-icnelti = da l?stima, compasi?n (?pobrecito!) te; persona; icne: de l?stima, compasi?n; lti (part. para compulsivo) teicnelti = hace que las personas sientan compasi?n de ?l. Nimitztapalohua Tomas Amaya _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Nov 29 20:55:39 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 15:55:39 -0500 Subject: Encoded messages Message-ID: Galen Brokaw's message was encoded as it was distributed tot he list. If you could not read the message, you may consult the archives where all messages are archived in plain format: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=NAHUAT-L -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From brokaw at buffalo.edu Mon Nov 29 21:57:03 2010 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:57:03 -0500 Subject: titeknelti tata Message-ID: I sent my message twice trying to fix the problem. Here goes the third time, trying something else. I'm not copying Tomas Amaya's message here, but my message is in response the morphology that he proposed for tecnelti. Es cierta la morfologia de esta palabra? A primera vista la ortografia de la palabra parece indicar una posible relacion con "icnotl" y el diccionario de Kartunnen sugiere tal relacion, la cual supongo podria tener cierto sentido desde la perspectiva de la semantica; pero no me queda claro el mecanismo gramatical que produce el verbo "icnelia" o "icneltia" basandose en el sustantivo "icnotl." Galen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Nov 30 14:42:32 2010 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:42:32 -0500 Subject: Mexican Digital Library Message-ID: Colleagues, CONACULTA has launched a digital library of various codices. You can consult it at: http://bdmx.mx/ It includes a Testerian catechism, some of the codices from the Marquesado del Valle, and other interesting pieces from the early colonial period. Participants include the AGN, the Bibilioteca Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, and the Centro de Estudios de la Historia de Mexico. -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cienhuac at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 17:43:32 2010 From: cienhuac at gmail.com (velez ramirez) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 11:43:32 -0600 Subject: Titeknelti tata Message-ID: Tlazohcamati in amotlanananquiliz Revisando el diccionario 2003 de De Wolf UABCS-UNAM (alguien conoce este diccionario, que les parece?) en la pagina 171 en la columna izquierda se encuentra: compasi?n; teeicneeliliztli pag 469 columna izquierda: lastimero adj. ; teeicneeltih lastimoso adj.; teeicneeltih v.v. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl