From jdcomegys at cvip.net  Wed Aug  3 15:59:45 2011
From: jdcomegys at cvip.net (jdcomegys at cvip.net)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:59:45 -0700
Subject: totlc89
Message-ID: <WED.3.AUG.2011.085945.0700.JDCOMEGYS@CVIP.NET>

Perhaps someone can help me with the following:
Talvez alguien puede ayudarme con la sigiente:

totlc89 totlc89 8ax totlc89 totlc89 

Does anyone know why it repeats and what it means?
I think tototlic is with us or near us. I cannot read the suffix, or the word in the middle 8ax. 
What I have transcribed here as x actually has a bar across the top. 

?Conocen algien porque se repita o que significa?
Pienso que totlc es tototlic cerca de nosotros or con nostros. No puedo leer el sufijo, ni la palabra en la mitad del frase 8ax. 
Lo que he trascribio' como x tiene una linea encima. 

Thank you, Gracias

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Aug  3 16:15:42 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:15:42 -0400
Subject: totlc89
In-Reply-To: <39aff3ed737545e5a32179e3c12075cc.jdcomegys@cvip.net>
Message-ID: <WED.3.AUG.2011.121542.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

What is the origin of this?

The sequence -tlc- makes it appear to me like gibberish.

Lo siento mucho.

Michael

Quoting "jdcomegys at cvip.net" <jdcomegys at cvip.net>:

> Perhaps someone can help me with the following:
> Talvez alguien puede ayudarme con la sigiente:
>
> totlc89 totlc89 8ax totlc89 totlc89
>
> Does anyone know why it repeats and what it means?
> I think tototlic is with us or near us. I cannot read the suffix, or
> the word in the middle 8ax.
> What I have transcribed here as x actually has a bar across the top.
>
> ?Conocen algien porque se repita o que significa?
> Pienso que totlc es tototlic cerca de nosotros or con nostros. No
> puedo leer el sufijo, ni la palabra en la mitad del frase 8ax.
> Lo que he trascribio' como x tiene una linea encima.
>
> Thank you, Gracias
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From wm.annis at gmail.com  Tue Aug  9 01:54:51 2011
From: wm.annis at gmail.com (Wm Annis)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 20:54:51 -0500
Subject: a puzzling particle chain: "ye quine"
Message-ID: <MON.8.AUG.2011.205451.0500.WM.ANNIS@GMAIL.COM>

Even though I'm not too many chapters into Launey & Mackay,
I've decided to tackle a few smaller texts.  I've always been fond
of Aesop for beginning reading, and luckily there are Nahuatl
translations available.  I'm getting my texts from two places,

  * http://books.google.com/books?id=RtdVAAAAMAAJ (P.)
  * http://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/paleografia.php?id=287 (ms.)

I'm working mostly with the ms. version, using P. for occasional
clarity.  Needless to say, both are providing quite the education
in Nahuatl spelling habits.  My notes for the first fable I'm trying
are here:

  * http://lingweenie.org/nahuatl/esopo-2.pdf

I am very puzzled by a particle chain (?) in line four, "Auh inic
yexpan oquinamic ye quine mochicauh huel itlan onmiquani,
ihuan oquinotz."  Right now I suspect "ye quine" (spelled
"yequine" in P.) of being "ye quin-(y)eh."  Is that a reasonable
interpretation?  And if so, what on earth does it mean?

-- 
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org • www.scholiastae.org
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From bleeming at gmail.com  Tue Aug  9 14:52:37 2011
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 10:52:37 -0400
Subject: a puzzling particle chain: "ye quine"
Message-ID: <TUE.9.AUG.2011.105237.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

William,

This could be a variant spelling of *yequene, *which Andrews (1975:486)
parses as *ye quēn eh* “at last.”  Also, Siméon (1992:181) has "más,
también, igualmente, en fin, finalmente" for *yequene.*   Of course, I could
be totally off on this!  But it seems to make sense in context.  Hope this
helps.

Ben

-- 
Ben Leeming
PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From karttu at comcast.net  Tue Aug  9 18:12:02 2011
From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:12:02 -0400
Subject: a puzzling particle chain: "ye quine"
In-Reply-To: <CAKjHCejoge7VnLaEy4inyh1nMiZ0f=yW70jmDMPRM75d=JvAKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.AUG.2011.141202.0400.KARTTU@COMCAST.NET>

YE:QUENEH "finally, moreover"  This is to be found in Molina; e/i  
variation is common.


On Aug 8, 2011, at 9:54 PM, Wm Annis wrote:

> Even though I'm not too many chapters into Launey & Mackay,
> I've decided to tackle a few smaller texts.  I've always been fond
> of Aesop for beginning reading, and luckily there are Nahuatl
> translations available.  I'm getting my texts from two places,
>
>   * http://books.google.com/books?id=RtdVAAAAMAAJ (P.)
>   * http://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/paleografia.php?id=287 (ms.)
>
> I'm working mostly with the ms. version, using P. for occasional
> clarity.  Needless to say, both are providing quite the education
> in Nahuatl spelling habits.  My notes for the first fable I'm trying
> are here:
>
>   * http://lingweenie.org/nahuatl/esopo-2.pdf
>
> I am very puzzled by a particle chain (?) in line four, "Auh inic
> yexpan oquinamic ye quine mochicauh huel itlan onmiquani,
> ihuan oquinotz."  Right now I suspect "ye quine" (spelled
> "yequine" in P.) of being "ye quin-(y)eh."  Is that a reasonable
> interpretation?  And if so, what on earth does it mean?
>
> -- 
> William S. Annis
> www.aoidoi.org • www.scholiastae.org
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From wm.annis at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 03:29:56 2011
From: wm.annis at gmail.com (Wm Annis)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 22:29:56 -0500
Subject: a puzzling particle chain: "ye quine"
In-Reply-To: <5F62683C-3779-4176-A401-B0907CD495F0@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.AUG.2011.222956.0500.WM.ANNIS@GMAIL.COM>

Thanks to everyone for the help.  With a little more digging I
was able to locate an identical form, with an editor making the
same decision, in the Anonimo Mexicano.  Wondrously, that
text is available online:

http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=usupress_pubs&

-- 
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org • www.scholiastae.org
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Sat Aug 13 22:02:35 2011
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:02:35 -0400
Subject: Errors in the D&A edition of the Florentine Codex
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErU8oef8kruvpixYkzfB7RzWgK4e9S3hciE3YRd4xCQdHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.AUG.2011.180235.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Nocnihuan,

   I was recently looking through a list of Nahuatl words from the Florentine
Codex with the goal of supplying an English gloss for the ones that lacked one
in my list.  My first tool is the Dibble and Anderson edition, but, where
necessary, I check my dubits with the facsimile of the FC.  I had undoubtedly
run into the word "acac" (written here over the corrected version) again and
again, but had always assumed that I would someday take of the pesky
unrecognized form.
   Last night I finally retreated to the facsimile and, after some searching,
found that my "acac" was really "ayac" (i.e., no one)!

   I thought that some notes on errors in the Dibble and Anderson edition of
the FC might be of interest to the group.  I give the book and page numbers,
and the "f." number is only to help me locate the data item later.  My
informal comments are at the end of block, enclosed in brackets.

   Naturally, I would be glad to clarify anything that my comments (originally
meant to be "talking to myself") leave unclear.

   I should include a comment that many people will consider unnecessary --
finding errors in a work involving the complexity of dealing with the 
paleography of the FC and the editing of the facing English and Nahuatl 
columns is not surprising.  The surprise is that THERE ARE SO FEW!!  My 
respect and admiration for Dibble and Anderson has grown with my 
continuing use of their work.

Joe


                                       acac
     b. 2 f. 10 p. 162  ayac teahuaya, ayac mahuaya:   no one disputed
                    with others, no one wrangled. ; word: no one,
                    nobody   ../.. ayac   [*****??D&A transcribe this
                    as "acac", but the facsimile is clearly "aiac" ]


********************



     b. 2 f. 1 p. 52  auh in tlamani, in oconcahuato imal temalacac:
                    niman ye ic huitz, oncan hualmoquetza in icaya,
                    mihtotiticac, ixquichcapa ontlachixticac, in imal
                    conitzticac:   and the captor, when he had gone
                    to leave his captive on the round stone of gladiatorial
                    sacrifice, thereupon went away; he stopped where
                    he had been standing before; he stood dancing;
                    from where he was he stood watching; he stood
                    looking at his captive. ; word: he stands looking
                    at him   ../.. itztihcac, con-  [*****?? shouldn't
                    conitzicac be conitzticac?? Yes, this is a typo
                    in D&A; I checked the facsimile and it has 't' ]


     b. 2 f. 2 p. 57  ic tlacemilhuitiltitoque, ic tlalhuiquixtitoque,
                    ic tlalhuinextitoque, tlalhuizoltitoque, ihuizolotoque,
                    thus they sat passing all day, thus they sat celebrating
                    the day, thus they sat displaying the day; they
                    sat making the day wear away; they sat wearing
                    the day away. ; word: waiting for gloss ../..
                    ilhuizolohtoqueh   [*****??printing error: D&A
                    have "ihuj‡ulotoque", but the facsimile has 
"tilhuj‡ulotoque" ]


     b. 2 f. 7 p. 128  auh in ohecoc, oncan conitta, yexitontli, in
                    oncan icac, iotexpan: anozo itenco,   and when
                    [the god] arrived, [the priest] saw there a little
                    foot[print], which was there on the cornmeal or
                    at its edge. ; word: little foot, little footprint
                    ../.. icxitontli   [*****??"iexitontli" appears
                    in the D&A transcription, but the facsimile has
                    "icxitontli". ]


     b. 4 f. 3 p. 23  teicpac nemi, ic atlamattinemi, ic cuecuenoti,
                    inix, iniyollo, in icuicanyo, in inemach, inic
                    tlatlatiani, inic tlayolhuiani, inic cuicapiquini,
                    inic cuicatoltecatl   so he acted superior in
                    mind and heart, in his songs, and in his wisdom,
                    as a poet, a designer, a composer, a master of
                    song. ; word: poet, one who composes something
                    ../.. tlaliani, tla-  [*****??The D&A edition
                    has "tlatlatianj", but the facsimile of the Florentine
                    Codex has "tlatlalianj" ]


     b. 4 f. 9 p. 96  auh inic amo za nen tontlatlatozque: titlatolzacamozque,
                    and so we shall not repeat uselessly nor reopen
                    the discussion. ; word: we shall speak repeatedly
                    ../.. tlatlahtozqueh, ton-  [*****??printing error:
                    D&A have "totlatlatozque", but the facsimile has
                    "tontlatlatozque" ]


     b. 5 f. 1 p. 151  ic ce capitulo, oncan mitoa, in tetzahuitl
                    in quitetzammatia: in ihcuac yoaltica, aca quicaquia:
                    in chocaica itla tecuani, in anoce, iuhqui aca
                    ilama chocaya:   first chapter. here are related
                    the omens in which they believed when, at night,
                    someone heard some wild animal cry out, or when
                    it seemed as if some old woman wept; ; word: it
                    was crying   ../.. chocaya   [*****??11|printing
                    error: D&A edition has "chocaica"; the facsimile
                    has "chocaia" ]


     b. 6 f. 2 p. 15  ma motecuayoti, ma motleyoti in teoatl, in tlachinolli:
                    may it gain ferocity, glory in war. ; word: waiting
                    for gloss ../.. tecuayoti, mo-  [*****??this is
                    a misprint for motecuayoti; the final character
                    which D&A interpret as 'l' shows up in the facsimile
                    as something ambiguous between 'l' and 'i'; it
                    is shorter than any 'l' in the surrounding text
                    and there also appears to be a break between the
                    body of the 'i' and the dot ]


     b. 6 f. 11 p. 129  auh in quemmanian in iuhqui meaozque, in iuhqui
                    cochizque: a tonehuaz, a chichinacaz in iyollotzin:
                    quen oquimotlachieltili in ichpochtontli,   and
                    if at times they will be poor, [if] her heart
                    will suffer pain and affliction, how will he regard
                    the maiden? ; word: they will rise   ../.. ehuazqueh,
                    m[o]-  [*****??printing error: the facsimile has
                    "meoazque", but the D&A edition has "meaozque" ]


     b. 10 f. 2 p. 23  in cualli cuachi micalini milacatzoani, momiccatlazani
                    tlacemoliniani, teochpahuazhuiani   the good shorn
                    one [is] a skirmisher, an aggressor, who hurls
                    himself to his death; a vanquisher, a sweeper
                    away [of the foe]. ; word: shorn, having a shorn
                    head   ../.. cuachic   [*****??The D&A edition
                    has "cuachi", but the facsimile has unambiguous
                    "cuachic" ]


     b. 10 f. 11 p. 178  mohuia: ye on totomitl,   it was said: "now
                    thou art an otomi." ; word: it is said   ../..
                    [il]lhuia, mo-  [*****??printing error: mohuja
                    for molhuja; D&A have mohuija, but the facsimile
                    has molhuja ]


     b. 11 f. 26 p. 271  quitoznequi, amo xacalli, tlacuauhtentli,
                    huapaltzacqui, cuauhpixollo, tlapanyo, tlachiuhqui,
                    pantlallo, atenayo, apipilhuazyo,   it means not
                    a hut, [but] a wooden house, the beams covered
                    with planks; a house covered with wood, having
                    a flat roof; flat, with earth above, with a parapet,
                    with a conduit. ; word: something covered with
                    wood   ../.. cuauhtentli, tla-  [*****??printing
                    error in D&A: tlaquauhtentlli for tlaquauhtentli;
                    facsimile has tlaquauhtentli ]


     b. 11 f. 27 p. 279  in iztac cintli, amilpanecayotl, ximmilpanecayotl,
                    chinampanecayotl, chalcahuitl, huexotzincayotl,
                    tlatepotzcayotl, tlalhuicayotl, tonayancayotl,
                    matlatzincayotl, mazahuacayotl, michoacayotl,
                    totonacayotl, anahuacayotl, atic, tepitztic, coyoltic,
                    tlacuactic, xocoyollotic, naltic, tecciztic, iztacpatic,
                    chopilotic,   the white maize ear -- that of the
                    irrigated lands, that of the fields, that of the
                    chinampas, that of chalco, that of uexotzinco,
                    that of the tlateputzca, that of the tlalhuica,
                    that from the east, that of the matlatzinca, of
                    the ma‡aua, of michoacan, of the totonaca, of
                    anauac -- is small; it is hard, like a copper
                    bell -- hard, like fruit pits; it is clear; it
                    is like a seashell, very white; it is like a crystal.
                    ; word: something pertaining to Chalco   ../..
                    chalcayotl   [*****??is this an error for chalcaiutl?
                    The answer seems to be yes; in the facsimile,
                    where D&A interpret "ui", there are three minims
                    and the dot, although ambiguous, seems to be over
                    the first one. Further, this word is in the middle
                    of a series of words ending in "-cayotl". ]



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From jrabasa at berkeley.edu  Sun Aug 14 05:21:34 2011
From: jrabasa at berkeley.edu (=?utf-8?B?Ikpvc8OpIFJhYmFzYSI=?=)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 22:21:34 -0700
Subject: Errors in the D&A edition of the Florentine Codex
In-Reply-To: <20110813180235.s01vdqjlog04o48k@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.AUG.2011.222134.0700.JRABASA@BERKELEY.EDU>

Many thanks, Joe. Your observations will prove invaluable fort
understanding passages that had proved impossible.

Abrazos,

Jose


> Nocnihuan,
>
>    I was recently looking through a list of Nahuatl words from the
> Florentine
> Codex with the goal of supplying an English gloss for the ones that lacked
> one
> in my list.  My first tool is the Dibble and Anderson edition, but, where
> necessary, I check my dubits with the facsimile of the FC.  I had
> undoubtedly
> run into the word "acac" (written here over the corrected version) again
> and
> again, but had always assumed that I would someday take of the pesky
> unrecognized form.
>    Last night I finally retreated to the facsimile and, after some
> searching,
> found that my "acac" was really "ayac" (i.e., no one)!
>
>    I thought that some notes on errors in the Dibble and Anderson edition
> of
> the FC might be of interest to the group.  I give the book and page
> numbers,
> and the "f." number is only to help me locate the data item later.  My
> informal comments are at the end of block, enclosed in brackets.
>
>    Naturally, I would be glad to clarify anything that my comments
> (originally
> meant to be "talking to myself") leave unclear.
>
>    I should include a comment that many people will consider unnecessary
> --
> finding errors in a work involving the complexity of dealing with the
> paleography of the FC and the editing of the facing English and Nahuatl
> columns is not surprising.  The surprise is that THERE ARE SO FEW!!  My
> respect and admiration for Dibble and Anderson has grown with my
> continuing use of their work.
>
> Joe
>
>
>                                        acac
>      b. 2 f. 10 p. 162  ayac teahuaya, ayac mahuaya:   no one disputed
>                     with others, no one wrangled. ; word: no one,
>                     nobody   ../.. ayac   [*****??D&A transcribe this
>                     as "acac", but the facsimile is clearly "aiac" ]
>
>
> ********************
>
>
>
>      b. 2 f. 1 p. 52  auh in tlamani, in oconcahuato imal temalacac:
>                     niman ye ic huitz, oncan hualmoquetza in icaya,
>                     mihtotiticac, ixquichcapa ontlachixticac, in imal
>                     conitzticac:   and the captor, when he had gone
>                     to leave his captive on the round stone of
> gladiatorial
>                     sacrifice, thereupon went away; he stopped where
>                     he had been standing before; he stood dancing;
>                     from where he was he stood watching; he stood
>                     looking at his captive. ; word: he stands looking
>                     at him   ../.. itztihcac, con-  [*****?? shouldn't
>                     conitzicac be conitzticac?? Yes, this is a typo
>                     in D&A; I checked the facsimile and it has 't' ]
>
>
>      b. 2 f. 2 p. 57  ic tlacemilhuitiltitoque, ic tlalhuiquixtitoque,
>                     ic tlalhuinextitoque, tlalhuizoltitoque,
> ihuizolotoque,
>                     thus they sat passing all day, thus they sat
> celebrating
>                     the day, thus they sat displaying the day; they
>                     sat making the day wear away; they sat wearing
>                     the day away. ; word: waiting for gloss ../..
>                     ilhuizolohtoqueh   [*****??printing error: D&A
>                     have "ihuj�ulotoque", but the facsimile has
> "tilhuj�ulotoque" ]
>
>
>      b. 2 f. 7 p. 128  auh in ohecoc, oncan conitta, yexitontli, in
>                     oncan icac, iotexpan: anozo itenco,   and when
>                     [the god] arrived, [the priest] saw there a little
>                     foot[print], which was there on the cornmeal or
>                     at its edge. ; word: little foot, little footprint
>                     ../.. icxitontli   [*****??"iexitontli" appears
>                     in the D&A transcription, but the facsimile has
>                     "icxitontli". ]
>
>
>      b. 4 f. 3 p. 23  teicpac nemi, ic atlamattinemi, ic cuecuenoti,
>                     inix, iniyollo, in icuicanyo, in inemach, inic
>                     tlatlatiani, inic tlayolhuiani, inic cuicapiquini,
>                     inic cuicatoltecatl   so he acted superior in
>                     mind and heart, in his songs, and in his wisdom,
>                     as a poet, a designer, a composer, a master of
>                     song. ; word: poet, one who composes something
>                     ../.. tlaliani, tla-  [*****??The D&A edition
>                     has "tlatlatianj", but the facsimile of the Florentine
>                     Codex has "tlatlalianj" ]
>
>
>      b. 4 f. 9 p. 96  auh inic amo za nen tontlatlatozque:
> titlatolzacamozque,
>                     and so we shall not repeat uselessly nor reopen
>                     the discussion. ; word: we shall speak repeatedly
>                     ../.. tlatlahtozqueh, ton-  [*****??printing error:
>                     D&A have "totlatlatozque", but the facsimile has
>                     "tontlatlatozque" ]
>
>
>      b. 5 f. 1 p. 151  ic ce capitulo, oncan mitoa, in tetzahuitl
>                     in quitetzammatia: in ihcuac yoaltica, aca quicaquia:
>                     in chocaica itla tecuani, in anoce, iuhqui aca
>                     ilama chocaya:   first chapter. here are related
>                     the omens in which they believed when, at night,
>                     someone heard some wild animal cry out, or when
>                     it seemed as if some old woman wept; ; word: it
>                     was crying   ../.. chocaya   [*****??11|printing
>                     error: D&A edition has "chocaica"; the facsimile
>                     has "chocaia" ]
>
>
>      b. 6 f. 2 p. 15  ma motecuayoti, ma motleyoti in teoatl, in
> tlachinolli:
>                     may it gain ferocity, glory in war. ; word: waiting
>                     for gloss ../.. tecuayoti, mo-  [*****??this is
>                     a misprint for motecuayoti; the final character
>                     which D&A interpret as 'l' shows up in the facsimile
>                     as something ambiguous between 'l' and 'i'; it
>                     is shorter than any 'l' in the surrounding text
>                     and there also appears to be a break between the
>                     body of the 'i' and the dot ]
>
>
>      b. 6 f. 11 p. 129  auh in quemmanian in iuhqui meaozque, in iuhqui
>                     cochizque: a tonehuaz, a chichinacaz in iyollotzin:
>                     quen oquimotlachieltili in ichpochtontli,   and
>                     if at times they will be poor, [if] her heart
>                     will suffer pain and affliction, how will he regard
>                     the maiden? ; word: they will rise   ../.. ehuazqueh,
>                     m[o]-  [*****??printing error: the facsimile has
>                     "meoazque", but the D&A edition has "meaozque" ]
>
>
>      b. 10 f. 2 p. 23  in cualli cuachi micalini milacatzoani,
> momiccatlazani
>                     tlacemoliniani, teochpahuazhuiani   the good shorn
>                     one [is] a skirmisher, an aggressor, who hurls
>                     himself to his death; a vanquisher, a sweeper
>                     away [of the foe]. ; word: shorn, having a shorn
>                     head   ../.. cuachic   [*****??The D&A edition
>                     has "cuachi", but the facsimile has unambiguous
>                     "cuachic" ]
>
>
>      b. 10 f. 11 p. 178  mohuia: ye on totomitl,   it was said: "now
>                     thou art an otomi." ; word: it is said   ../..
>                     [il]lhuia, mo-  [*****??printing error: mohuja
>                     for molhuja; D&A have mohuija, but the facsimile
>                     has molhuja ]
>
>
>      b. 11 f. 26 p. 271  quitoznequi, amo xacalli, tlacuauhtentli,
>                     huapaltzacqui, cuauhpixollo, tlapanyo, tlachiuhqui,
>                     pantlallo, atenayo, apipilhuazyo,   it means not
>                     a hut, [but] a wooden house, the beams covered
>                     with planks; a house covered with wood, having
>                     a flat roof; flat, with earth above, with a parapet,
>                     with a conduit. ; word: something covered with
>                     wood   ../.. cuauhtentli, tla-  [*****??printing
>                     error in D&A: tlaquauhtentlli for tlaquauhtentli;
>                     facsimile has tlaquauhtentli ]
>
>
>      b. 11 f. 27 p. 279  in iztac cintli, amilpanecayotl,
> ximmilpanecayotl,
>                     chinampanecayotl, chalcahuitl, huexotzincayotl,
>                     tlatepotzcayotl, tlalhuicayotl, tonayancayotl,
>                     matlatzincayotl, mazahuacayotl, michoacayotl,
>                     totonacayotl, anahuacayotl, atic, tepitztic, coyoltic,
>                     tlacuactic, xocoyollotic, naltic, tecciztic,
> iztacpatic,
>                     chopilotic,   the white maize ear -- that of the
>                     irrigated lands, that of the fields, that of the
>                     chinampas, that of chalco, that of uexotzinco,
>                     that of the tlateputzca, that of the tlalhuica,
>                     that from the east, that of the matlatzinca, of
>                     the ma�aua, of michoacan, of the totonaca, of
>                     anauac -- is small; it is hard, like a copper
>                     bell -- hard, like fruit pits; it is clear; it
>                     is like a seashell, very white; it is like a crystal.
>                     ; word: something pertaining to Chalco   ../..
>                     chalcayotl   [*****??is this an error for chalcaiutl?
>                     The answer seems to be yes; in the facsimile,
>                     where D&A interpret "ui", there are three minims
>                     and the dot, although ambiguous, seems to be over
>                     the first one. Further, this word is in the middle
>                     of a series of words ending in "-cayotl". ]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>




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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sun Aug 14 18:16:06 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 14:16:06 -0400
Subject: Errors in the D&A edition of the Florentine Codex
In-Reply-To: <5cd29013e1a6da785a291567e45b4e3c.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.AUG.2011.141606.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

At the same time, "impossible" passages may not be impossible because 
of anything Dibble and Anderson did.

:-)




Quoting José Rabasa <jrabasa at berkeley.edu>:

> Many thanks, Joe. Your observations will prove invaluable fort
> understanding passages that had proved impossible.
>
> Abrazos,
>
> Jose
>
>
>> Nocnihuan,
>>
>>    I was recently looking through a list of Nahuatl words from the
>> Florentine
>> Codex with the goal of supplying an English gloss for the ones that lacked
>> one
>> in my list.  My first tool is the Dibble and Anderson edition, but, where
>> necessary, I check my dubits with the facsimile of the FC.  I had
>> undoubtedly
>> run into the word "acac" (written here over the corrected version) again
>> and
>> again, but had always assumed that I would someday take of the pesky
>> unrecognized form.
>>    Last night I finally retreated to the facsimile and, after some
>> searching,
>> found that my "acac" was really "ayac" (i.e., no one)!
>>
>>    I thought that some notes on errors in the Dibble and Anderson edition
>> of
>> the FC might be of interest to the group.  I give the book and page
>> numbers,
>> and the "f." number is only to help me locate the data item later.  My
>> informal comments are at the end of block, enclosed in brackets.
>>
>>    Naturally, I would be glad to clarify anything that my comments
>> (originally
>> meant to be "talking to myself") leave unclear.
>>
>>    I should include a comment that many people will consider unnecessary
>> --
>> finding errors in a work involving the complexity of dealing with the
>> paleography of the FC and the editing of the facing English and Nahuatl
>> columns is not surprising.  The surprise is that THERE ARE SO FEW!!  My
>> respect and admiration for Dibble and Anderson has grown with my
>> continuing use of their work.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>                                        acac
>>      b. 2 f. 10 p. 162  ayac teahuaya, ayac mahuaya:   no one disputed
>>                     with others, no one wrangled. ; word: no one,
>>                     nobody   ../.. ayac   [*****??D&A transcribe this
>>                     as "acac", but the facsimile is clearly "aiac" ]
>>
>>
>> ********************
>>
>>
>>
>>      b. 2 f. 1 p. 52  auh in tlamani, in oconcahuato imal temalacac:
>>                     niman ye ic huitz, oncan hualmoquetza in icaya,
>>                     mihtotiticac, ixquichcapa ontlachixticac, in imal
>>                     conitzticac:   and the captor, when he had gone
>>                     to leave his captive on the round stone of
>> gladiatorial
>>                     sacrifice, thereupon went away; he stopped where
>>                     he had been standing before; he stood dancing;
>>                     from where he was he stood watching; he stood
>>                     looking at his captive. ; word: he stands looking
>>                     at him   ../.. itztihcac, con-  [*****?? shouldn't
>>                     conitzicac be conitzticac?? Yes, this is a typo
>>                     in D&A; I checked the facsimile and it has 't' ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 2 f. 2 p. 57  ic tlacemilhuitiltitoque, ic tlalhuiquixtitoque,
>>                     ic tlalhuinextitoque, tlalhuizoltitoque,
>> ihuizolotoque,
>>                     thus they sat passing all day, thus they sat
>> celebrating
>>                     the day, thus they sat displaying the day; they
>>                     sat making the day wear away; they sat wearing
>>                     the day away. ; word: waiting for gloss ../..
>>                     ilhuizolohtoqueh   [*****??printing error: D&A
>>                     have "ihuj?ulotoque", but the facsimile has
>> "tilhuj?ulotoque" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 2 f. 7 p. 128  auh in ohecoc, oncan conitta, yexitontli, in
>>                     oncan icac, iotexpan: anozo itenco,   and when
>>                     [the god] arrived, [the priest] saw there a little
>>                     foot[print], which was there on the cornmeal or
>>                     at its edge. ; word: little foot, little footprint
>>                     ../.. icxitontli   [*****??"iexitontli" appears
>>                     in the D&A transcription, but the facsimile has
>>                     "icxitontli". ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 4 f. 3 p. 23  teicpac nemi, ic atlamattinemi, ic cuecuenoti,
>>                     inix, iniyollo, in icuicanyo, in inemach, inic
>>                     tlatlatiani, inic tlayolhuiani, inic cuicapiquini,
>>                     inic cuicatoltecatl   so he acted superior in
>>                     mind and heart, in his songs, and in his wisdom,
>>                     as a poet, a designer, a composer, a master of
>>                     song. ; word: poet, one who composes something
>>                     ../.. tlaliani, tla-  [*****??The D&A edition
>>                     has "tlatlatianj", but the facsimile of the Florentine
>>                     Codex has "tlatlalianj" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 4 f. 9 p. 96  auh inic amo za nen tontlatlatozque:
>> titlatolzacamozque,
>>                     and so we shall not repeat uselessly nor reopen
>>                     the discussion. ; word: we shall speak repeatedly
>>                     ../.. tlatlahtozqueh, ton-  [*****??printing error:
>>                     D&A have "totlatlatozque", but the facsimile has
>>                     "tontlatlatozque" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 5 f. 1 p. 151  ic ce capitulo, oncan mitoa, in tetzahuitl
>>                     in quitetzammatia: in ihcuac yoaltica, aca quicaquia:
>>                     in chocaica itla tecuani, in anoce, iuhqui aca
>>                     ilama chocaya:   first chapter. here are related
>>                     the omens in which they believed when, at night,
>>                     someone heard some wild animal cry out, or when
>>                     it seemed as if some old woman wept; ; word: it
>>                     was crying   ../.. chocaya   [*****??11|printing
>>                     error: D&A edition has "chocaica"; the facsimile
>>                     has "chocaia" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 6 f. 2 p. 15  ma motecuayoti, ma motleyoti in teoatl, in
>> tlachinolli:
>>                     may it gain ferocity, glory in war. ; word: waiting
>>                     for gloss ../.. tecuayoti, mo-  [*****??this is
>>                     a misprint for motecuayoti; the final character
>>                     which D&A interpret as 'l' shows up in the facsimile
>>                     as something ambiguous between 'l' and 'i'; it
>>                     is shorter than any 'l' in the surrounding text
>>                     and there also appears to be a break between the
>>                     body of the 'i' and the dot ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 6 f. 11 p. 129  auh in quemmanian in iuhqui meaozque, in iuhqui
>>                     cochizque: a tonehuaz, a chichinacaz in iyollotzin:
>>                     quen oquimotlachieltili in ichpochtontli,   and
>>                     if at times they will be poor, [if] her heart
>>                     will suffer pain and affliction, how will he regard
>>                     the maiden? ; word: they will rise   ../.. ehuazqueh,
>>                     m[o]-  [*****??printing error: the facsimile has
>>                     "meoazque", but the D&A edition has "meaozque" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 10 f. 2 p. 23  in cualli cuachi micalini milacatzoani,
>> momiccatlazani
>>                     tlacemoliniani, teochpahuazhuiani   the good shorn
>>                     one [is] a skirmisher, an aggressor, who hurls
>>                     himself to his death; a vanquisher, a sweeper
>>                     away [of the foe]. ; word: shorn, having a shorn
>>                     head   ../.. cuachic   [*****??The D&A edition
>>                     has "cuachi", but the facsimile has unambiguous
>>                     "cuachic" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 10 f. 11 p. 178  mohuia: ye on totomitl,   it was said: "now
>>                     thou art an otomi." ; word: it is said   ../..
>>                     [il]lhuia, mo-  [*****??printing error: mohuja
>>                     for molhuja; D&A have mohuija, but the facsimile
>>                     has molhuja ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 11 f. 26 p. 271  quitoznequi, amo xacalli, tlacuauhtentli,
>>                     huapaltzacqui, cuauhpixollo, tlapanyo, tlachiuhqui,
>>                     pantlallo, atenayo, apipilhuazyo,   it means not
>>                     a hut, [but] a wooden house, the beams covered
>>                     with planks; a house covered with wood, having
>>                     a flat roof; flat, with earth above, with a parapet,
>>                     with a conduit. ; word: something covered with
>>                     wood   ../.. cuauhtentli, tla-  [*****??printing
>>                     error in D&A: tlaquauhtentlli for tlaquauhtentli;
>>                     facsimile has tlaquauhtentli ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 11 f. 27 p. 279  in iztac cintli, amilpanecayotl,
>> ximmilpanecayotl,
>>                     chinampanecayotl, chalcahuitl, huexotzincayotl,
>>                     tlatepotzcayotl, tlalhuicayotl, tonayancayotl,
>>                     matlatzincayotl, mazahuacayotl, michoacayotl,
>>                     totonacayotl, anahuacayotl, atic, tepitztic, coyoltic,
>>                     tlacuactic, xocoyollotic, naltic, tecciztic,
>> iztacpatic,
>>                     chopilotic,   the white maize ear -- that of the
>>                     irrigated lands, that of the fields, that of the
>>                     chinampas, that of chalco, that of uexotzinco,
>>                     that of the tlateputzca, that of the tlalhuica,
>>                     that from the east, that of the matlatzinca, of
>>                     the ma?aua, of michoacan, of the totonaca, of
>>                     anauac -- is small; it is hard, like a copper
>>                     bell -- hard, like fruit pits; it is clear; it
>>                     is like a seashell, very white; it is like a crystal.
>>                     ; word: something pertaining to Chalco   ../..
>>                     chalcayotl   [*****??is this an error for chalcaiutl?
>>                     The answer seems to be yes; in the facsimile,
>>                     where D&A interpret "ui", there are three minims
>>                     and the dot, although ambiguous, seems to be over
>>                     the first one. Further, this word is in the middle
>>                     of a series of words ending in "-cayotl". ]
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From campbel at indiana.edu  Mon Aug 15 02:59:06 2011
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:59:06 -0400
Subject: Errors in the D&A edition of the Florentine Codex
In-Reply-To: <5cd29013e1a6da785a291567e45b4e3c.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.AUG.2011.225906.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Hey Jose,

   What bothers me sometimes is that, in some cases, it takes 13 head 
scratching sessions to "get it".  But on the other hand, it's good for 
one's humility. |8-)

Abrazos,

Joe


Quoting José Rabasa <jrabasa at berkeley.edu>:

> Many thanks, Joe. Your observations will prove invaluable fort
> understanding passages that had proved impossible.
>
> Abrazos,
>
> Jose
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Aug 26 14:23:48 2011
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:23:48 -0400
Subject: Comments on the Florentine
Message-ID: <FRI.26.AUG.2011.102348.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Nocnihuan,

   When I got back from my first contact with Nahuatl in Tepoztlan in 
the summer of 1962 with Ken Hale, I first saw volumes of Dibble and 
Anderson's edition of the Florentine Codex in the University of 
Illinois library.
"WOW!!" is a very weak word to express my reaction, so you can picture 
it as "WOW-cubed!!!"  It has only grown since then.

   I'm sending you some of my notes on the Florentine, with the hope of 
a two-way communication:
  1) your comments which might modify my opinions;
  2) modifying your reading of some phrases in the text.

   The format below gives the book and page number in the D&A edition 
(the file number is for my use in locating the passage.  The "word" 
line identifies the commented portion of the phrase.  "my word gloss" 
gives my modified translation of the selected word in the Nahuatl 
phrase.  The comment line is my note (usually to myself and therefore 
informal) expressing an opposing opinion about the translation.
   I would very much appreciate comments to the contrary.

Joe

     1.
     book 1 file 1 page 27
        Nah: intla otetlaxin: inic amo cuatetlaxililoz, inic
          amo cuatepitziniloz,
          inic amo cuatetzotzonaloz, moyolmelahua.
        Eng: if they had committed adultery, so that their heads might
          not be pierced, nor crushed, nor beaten with stones, [therefore]
          they confessed.
        word: cuatetlaxililoz
        my word gloss: he will have rocks thrown at his head
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as pierced; it seems
          to involve rock throwing

     2.
     book 1 file 2 page 42
        Nah: oncan ic oquichtia.
        Eng: thus he made him a man of consequence.
        word: oquichtia
        my word gloss: he became a warrior
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "he made him a man",
          but since there is no transitive construction, it looks
          more like "in this way he became a man, a warrior"

     3.
     book 1 file 3 page 49
        Nah: ihuan in aca matzicolihuiya, ima quicuecuetza, icxi quicuecuetza,
          macopichahui, icxicopichahui, icxicuecuechca, ihixatotoco,
          tempapatlaca, tenhuihuiyoca, itech quinehua: mitoa, oquitlahuelique
          in xoxouhque tepicme.
        Eng: and if one were lame in one hand, [if] his arm quivered,
          his leg quivered, a hand became misshapen, a foot became
          misshapen, his foot shook, his eyes trembled, his lips quivered,
          his lips trembled, if he were possessed, it was said, the
          green mountain gods had become angered by him.
        word: ihixatotoco
        my word gloss: there is running of water from his eyes
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "his eyes trembled",
          but it seems more likely that it means "there is running
          of water from his eyes"

     4.
     book 2 file 2 page 58
        Nah: auh in ehuatl, ocototzauh, ocacalachuac, ocuahuac:
        Eng: and the skins were in pieces; they crackled; they were
          hard.
        word: cototzauh, o-
        my word gloss: it wrinkled, it twisted
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "were in pieces",
          but it is more likely that that it is "it wrinkled, it twisted",
          consistent with the semantics of 'cototzahui'.

     5.
     book 2 file 4 page 82
        Nah: iitztitoque,
        Eng: they lay sleepless.
        word: iitztitoqueh
        my word gloss: they lie sleepless
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as concerning sleeplessness,
          but it is more likely that it concerns "itztia" (being cold)

     6.
     book 2 file 4 page 88
        Nah: auh in icuac quimeltetequi, in ce ompeti iiechiquiuh,
          conanilia in iyollo, contlalitihui comic, tlatexohuilli
          motocayotia, mixcomitl, nauhcampa in tlaolxahualli:
        Eng: and when they slashed open the breasts of [the victims],
          when they opened the breast of one of them, they seized
          his heart; they went to place it in a vessel painted blue,
          named the cloud vessel, which was painted with rubber on
          four sides.
        word: tlalihtihui, con-
        my word gloss: they go placing it
        comment: *****??11|is this really a directional or a compound
          verb? D&A translate this as a purposive verb, but it is
          a compound verb

     7.
     book 2 file 7 page 119
        Nah: niman ic conicza in itianquiz, za iyopa, za ye connahuatia
          in tianquiztli.
        Eng: then she tramped over her market place for the last time
          before she took leave of the market place.
        word: iyohpa
        my word gloss: only time
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "last time"; it is
          more likely "only time"

     8.
     book 2 file 7 page 125
        Nah: in ocaxitico tlatzintlan, mec quimana in oncan coaxalpan.
        Eng: when he had come reaching the bottom, then he placed
          it there on the landing.
        word: ahxitico, oc-
        my word gloss: he came to bring it
        comment: *****??11| not reaching the bottom -- came to bring
          it (the chalk)

     9.
     book 2 file 7 page 125
        Nah: auh in ixquich tlacatl, zan iuh ontlantihui in quitlalcahuia,
          zan quezquinti in huel quimonaxitia, in huel ompa quimoncahua
          tocititlan:
        Eng: and everyone [else] went stopping when they left her;
          there were only few who indeed brought her, who indeed left
          her there at tocititlan.
        word: ahxitia, quimon-
        my word gloss: they bring them
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "they bring her",
          but it means "they bring them"

     10.
     book 2 file 7 page 125
        Nah: auh in ixquich tlacatl, zan iuh ontlantihui in quitlalcahuia,
          zan quezquinti in huel quimonaxitia, in huel ompa quimoncahua
          tocititlan:
        Eng: and everyone [else] went stopping when they left her;
          there were only few who indeed brought her, who indeed left
          her there at tocititlan.
        word: cahua, quimon-
        my word gloss: they leave them
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "they leave her",
          but it means "they leave them"




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From egm133 at psu.edu  Wed Aug 31 18:15:21 2011
From: egm133 at psu.edu (Emma Gaalaas Mullaney)
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 14:15:21 -0400
Subject: seeking materials on maize diversity and agricultural practices
 in the Amecameca Valley
Message-ID: <WED.31.AUG.2011.141521.0400.EGM133@PSU.EDU>

(versión en español más abajo)

Dear listserv,
I am a recent student of the Nahuatl language and Nahua people, but a
longstanding student of agrarian development and indigenous land use. I am
currently in the design stage of my dissertation research, which will
explore how diverse varieties of maize, and the traditional practices that
maintain them, continue to persist, even dominate, small-scale agricultural
systems in the Amecameca Valley of Mexico's central highland region. As a
geographer, I am extremely interested in both the temporal and spatial
dimensions of local maize diversity, in how maize agricultural systems have
changed in relation to political, economic, and cultural changes since
before the Conquest, and in the social and human-environmental relationships
that give value to (and thereby produce) particular varieties of maize in a
contemporary political economy. All of which means that I am casting a wide
net to scout for historical resources (documents may be in English, Spanish,
or Nahuatl) before I begin ethnographic work next year. There are two
flavors of material that I am particularly eager to find:

1. I am really interested in learning more about the cultural history of
place names in the central highland region, particularly the valley between
Amecameca and Chalco (just southeast of D.F.). Any recommendations on
historical resources related to this area would be most appreciated

2. Since I will be researching an environmental history of maize diversity
and agricultural systems in the Amecameca Valley, I would also be very
grateful for advice on where to find literature regarding environmental and
agricultural change in the region. I am looking for anything from
Nahuatl-language archival documents that mention maize/agriculture to
scholarly work on relevant topics, and am interested in change over a wide
temporal scope, from the 16th century to the present day.

Please send any advice to me off-listserv, and I would be happy to compile a
digest and post it later if that would be of interest to anyone.
Thank you very much for your time and attention.
All the best,
Emma

Soy un estudiante nuevo de la lengua náhuatl y los nahuas, pero un
estudiante de muchos años del desarrollo agrario y de las practicas
indígenas de uso de la tierra. En el momento, estoy diseñando mi tesis
doctoral, que explorará cómo diversas variedades de maíz, y las prácticas
tradicionales que los mantienen, persisten en los sistemas agrícolas en el
valle de Amecameca de la región central de México. Soy geógrafa, y por ello
estoy muy interesada en las dimensiones temporal y espacial de la diversidad
del maíz local, en la manera en que sistemas agrícolas de maíz han cambiado
en relación a los cambios políticos, económicos y culturales desde antes de
la Conquista, y en las relaciones sociales y humanas-medioambientales que
dan valor a (y por lo tanto producir) variedades diversas de maíz en una
economía política contemporánea. Basicamente, estoy buscando los recursos
históricos (los documentos pueden estar en Inglés, español o náhuatl) antes
de que comience el trabajo etnográfico del próximo año. Hay dos tipos de
material que estoy particularmente ansiosa de encontrar:

1. Estoy muy interesada a aprender más sobre la historia cultural de los
topónimos en la región central del altiplano, sobre todo el valle entre
Amecameca y Chalco (justo al sureste del DF). Cualquier recomendación sobre
los recursos históricos relacionados con este ámbito será muy apreciada

2. Por mi investiga de una historia ambiental de la diversidad del maíz y
los sistemas agrícolas en el valle de Amecameca, yo también estaría muy
agradecido para el consejo sobre dónde encontrar literatura sobre el cambio
ambiental y agrícola en la región. Estoy buscando algo de náhuatl, lengua
documentos de archivo que se menciona el maíz / agricultura y también el
trabajo académico sobre temas de interés, y estoy interesada en la cambia
agricultural de un ámbito temporal amplio, desde el siglo 16 hasta la
actualidad.

Por favor envíe cualquier consejo que me fuera de la lista de distribución,
y yo estaría feliz de elaborar un informe y publicarlo más adelante, si que
sería de interés para nadie.
Muchas gracias por su tiempo y atención.
Que tengan un buen dia,
Emma
-- 
Emma Gaalaas Mullaney
Geography & Women's Studies
Pennsylvania State University
734.355.3790
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From jdcomegys at cvip.net  Wed Aug  3 15:59:45 2011
From: jdcomegys at cvip.net (jdcomegys at cvip.net)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:59:45 -0700
Subject: totlc89
Message-ID: <WED.3.AUG.2011.085945.0700.JDCOMEGYS@CVIP.NET>

Perhaps someone can help me with the following:
Talvez alguien puede ayudarme con la sigiente:

totlc89 totlc89 8ax totlc89 totlc89 

Does anyone know why it repeats and what it means?
I think tototlic is with us or near us. I cannot read the suffix, or the word in the middle 8ax. 
What I have transcribed here as x actually has a bar across the top. 

?Conocen algien porque se repita o que significa?
Pienso que totlc es tototlic cerca de nosotros or con nostros. No puedo leer el sufijo, ni la palabra en la mitad del frase 8ax. 
Lo que he trascribio' como x tiene una linea encima. 

Thank you, Gracias

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Aug  3 16:15:42 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:15:42 -0400
Subject: totlc89
In-Reply-To: <39aff3ed737545e5a32179e3c12075cc.jdcomegys@cvip.net>
Message-ID: <WED.3.AUG.2011.121542.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

What is the origin of this?

The sequence -tlc- makes it appear to me like gibberish.

Lo siento mucho.

Michael

Quoting "jdcomegys at cvip.net" <jdcomegys at cvip.net>:

> Perhaps someone can help me with the following:
> Talvez alguien puede ayudarme con la sigiente:
>
> totlc89 totlc89 8ax totlc89 totlc89
>
> Does anyone know why it repeats and what it means?
> I think tototlic is with us or near us. I cannot read the suffix, or
> the word in the middle 8ax.
> What I have transcribed here as x actually has a bar across the top.
>
> ?Conocen algien porque se repita o que significa?
> Pienso que totlc es tototlic cerca de nosotros or con nostros. No
> puedo leer el sufijo, ni la palabra en la mitad del frase 8ax.
> Lo que he trascribio' como x tiene una linea encima.
>
> Thank you, Gracias
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From wm.annis at gmail.com  Tue Aug  9 01:54:51 2011
From: wm.annis at gmail.com (Wm Annis)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 20:54:51 -0500
Subject: a puzzling particle chain: "ye quine"
Message-ID: <MON.8.AUG.2011.205451.0500.WM.ANNIS@GMAIL.COM>

Even though I'm not too many chapters into Launey & Mackay,
I've decided to tackle a few smaller texts.  I've always been fond
of Aesop for beginning reading, and luckily there are Nahuatl
translations available.  I'm getting my texts from two places,

  * http://books.google.com/books?id=RtdVAAAAMAAJ (P.)
  * http://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/paleografia.php?id=287 (ms.)

I'm working mostly with the ms. version, using P. for occasional
clarity.  Needless to say, both are providing quite the education
in Nahuatl spelling habits.  My notes for the first fable I'm trying
are here:

  * http://lingweenie.org/nahuatl/esopo-2.pdf

I am very puzzled by a particle chain (?) in line four, "Auh inic
yexpan oquinamic ye quine mochicauh huel itlan onmiquani,
ihuan oquinotz."  Right now I suspect "ye quine" (spelled
"yequine" in P.) of being "ye quin-(y)eh."  Is that a reasonable
interpretation?  And if so, what on earth does it mean?

-- 
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org ? www.scholiastae.org
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From bleeming at gmail.com  Tue Aug  9 14:52:37 2011
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 10:52:37 -0400
Subject: a puzzling particle chain: "ye quine"
Message-ID: <TUE.9.AUG.2011.105237.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

William,

This could be a variant spelling of *yequene, *which Andrews (1975:486)
parses as *ye qu?n eh* ?at last.?  Also, Sim?on (1992:181) has "m?s,
tambi?n, igualmente, en fin, finalmente" for *yequene.*   Of course, I could
be totally off on this!  But it seems to make sense in context.  Hope this
helps.

Ben

-- 
Ben Leeming
PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From karttu at comcast.net  Tue Aug  9 18:12:02 2011
From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:12:02 -0400
Subject: a puzzling particle chain: "ye quine"
In-Reply-To: <CAKjHCejoge7VnLaEy4inyh1nMiZ0f=yW70jmDMPRM75d=JvAKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.AUG.2011.141202.0400.KARTTU@COMCAST.NET>

YE:QUENEH "finally, moreover"  This is to be found in Molina; e/i  
variation is common.


On Aug 8, 2011, at 9:54 PM, Wm Annis wrote:

> Even though I'm not too many chapters into Launey & Mackay,
> I've decided to tackle a few smaller texts.  I've always been fond
> of Aesop for beginning reading, and luckily there are Nahuatl
> translations available.  I'm getting my texts from two places,
>
>   * http://books.google.com/books?id=RtdVAAAAMAAJ (P.)
>   * http://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/paleografia.php?id=287 (ms.)
>
> I'm working mostly with the ms. version, using P. for occasional
> clarity.  Needless to say, both are providing quite the education
> in Nahuatl spelling habits.  My notes for the first fable I'm trying
> are here:
>
>   * http://lingweenie.org/nahuatl/esopo-2.pdf
>
> I am very puzzled by a particle chain (?) in line four, "Auh inic
> yexpan oquinamic ye quine mochicauh huel itlan onmiquani,
> ihuan oquinotz."  Right now I suspect "ye quine" (spelled
> "yequine" in P.) of being "ye quin-(y)eh."  Is that a reasonable
> interpretation?  And if so, what on earth does it mean?
>
> -- 
> William S. Annis
> www.aoidoi.org ? www.scholiastae.org
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From wm.annis at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 03:29:56 2011
From: wm.annis at gmail.com (Wm Annis)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 22:29:56 -0500
Subject: a puzzling particle chain: "ye quine"
In-Reply-To: <5F62683C-3779-4176-A401-B0907CD495F0@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.AUG.2011.222956.0500.WM.ANNIS@GMAIL.COM>

Thanks to everyone for the help.  With a little more digging I
was able to locate an identical form, with an editor making the
same decision, in the Anonimo Mexicano.  Wondrously, that
text is available online:

http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=usupress_pubs&

-- 
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org ? www.scholiastae.org
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Sat Aug 13 22:02:35 2011
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:02:35 -0400
Subject: Errors in the D&A edition of the Florentine Codex
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErU8oef8kruvpixYkzfB7RzWgK4e9S3hciE3YRd4xCQdHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.AUG.2011.180235.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Nocnihuan,

   I was recently looking through a list of Nahuatl words from the Florentine
Codex with the goal of supplying an English gloss for the ones that lacked one
in my list.  My first tool is the Dibble and Anderson edition, but, where
necessary, I check my dubits with the facsimile of the FC.  I had undoubtedly
run into the word "acac" (written here over the corrected version) again and
again, but had always assumed that I would someday take of the pesky
unrecognized form.
   Last night I finally retreated to the facsimile and, after some searching,
found that my "acac" was really "ayac" (i.e., no one)!

   I thought that some notes on errors in the Dibble and Anderson edition of
the FC might be of interest to the group.  I give the book and page numbers,
and the "f." number is only to help me locate the data item later.  My
informal comments are at the end of block, enclosed in brackets.

   Naturally, I would be glad to clarify anything that my comments (originally
meant to be "talking to myself") leave unclear.

   I should include a comment that many people will consider unnecessary --
finding errors in a work involving the complexity of dealing with the 
paleography of the FC and the editing of the facing English and Nahuatl 
columns is not surprising.  The surprise is that THERE ARE SO FEW!!  My 
respect and admiration for Dibble and Anderson has grown with my 
continuing use of their work.

Joe


                                       acac
     b. 2 f. 10 p. 162  ayac teahuaya, ayac mahuaya:   no one disputed
                    with others, no one wrangled. ; word: no one,
                    nobody   ../.. ayac   [*****??D&A transcribe this
                    as "acac", but the facsimile is clearly "aiac" ]


********************



     b. 2 f. 1 p. 52  auh in tlamani, in oconcahuato imal temalacac:
                    niman ye ic huitz, oncan hualmoquetza in icaya,
                    mihtotiticac, ixquichcapa ontlachixticac, in imal
                    conitzticac:   and the captor, when he had gone
                    to leave his captive on the round stone of gladiatorial
                    sacrifice, thereupon went away; he stopped where
                    he had been standing before; he stood dancing;
                    from where he was he stood watching; he stood
                    looking at his captive. ; word: he stands looking
                    at him   ../.. itztihcac, con-  [*****?? shouldn't
                    conitzicac be conitzticac?? Yes, this is a typo
                    in D&A; I checked the facsimile and it has 't' ]


     b. 2 f. 2 p. 57  ic tlacemilhuitiltitoque, ic tlalhuiquixtitoque,
                    ic tlalhuinextitoque, tlalhuizoltitoque, ihuizolotoque,
                    thus they sat passing all day, thus they sat celebrating
                    the day, thus they sat displaying the day; they
                    sat making the day wear away; they sat wearing
                    the day away. ; word: waiting for gloss ../..
                    ilhuizolohtoqueh   [*****??printing error: D&A
                    have "ihuj?ulotoque", but the facsimile has 
"tilhuj?ulotoque" ]


     b. 2 f. 7 p. 128  auh in ohecoc, oncan conitta, yexitontli, in
                    oncan icac, iotexpan: anozo itenco,   and when
                    [the god] arrived, [the priest] saw there a little
                    foot[print], which was there on the cornmeal or
                    at its edge. ; word: little foot, little footprint
                    ../.. icxitontli   [*****??"iexitontli" appears
                    in the D&A transcription, but the facsimile has
                    "icxitontli". ]


     b. 4 f. 3 p. 23  teicpac nemi, ic atlamattinemi, ic cuecuenoti,
                    inix, iniyollo, in icuicanyo, in inemach, inic
                    tlatlatiani, inic tlayolhuiani, inic cuicapiquini,
                    inic cuicatoltecatl   so he acted superior in
                    mind and heart, in his songs, and in his wisdom,
                    as a poet, a designer, a composer, a master of
                    song. ; word: poet, one who composes something
                    ../.. tlaliani, tla-  [*****??The D&A edition
                    has "tlatlatianj", but the facsimile of the Florentine
                    Codex has "tlatlalianj" ]


     b. 4 f. 9 p. 96  auh inic amo za nen tontlatlatozque: titlatolzacamozque,
                    and so we shall not repeat uselessly nor reopen
                    the discussion. ; word: we shall speak repeatedly
                    ../.. tlatlahtozqueh, ton-  [*****??printing error:
                    D&A have "totlatlatozque", but the facsimile has
                    "tontlatlatozque" ]


     b. 5 f. 1 p. 151  ic ce capitulo, oncan mitoa, in tetzahuitl
                    in quitetzammatia: in ihcuac yoaltica, aca quicaquia:
                    in chocaica itla tecuani, in anoce, iuhqui aca
                    ilama chocaya:   first chapter. here are related
                    the omens in which they believed when, at night,
                    someone heard some wild animal cry out, or when
                    it seemed as if some old woman wept; ; word: it
                    was crying   ../.. chocaya   [*****??11|printing
                    error: D&A edition has "chocaica"; the facsimile
                    has "chocaia" ]


     b. 6 f. 2 p. 15  ma motecuayoti, ma motleyoti in teoatl, in tlachinolli:
                    may it gain ferocity, glory in war. ; word: waiting
                    for gloss ../.. tecuayoti, mo-  [*****??this is
                    a misprint for motecuayoti; the final character
                    which D&A interpret as 'l' shows up in the facsimile
                    as something ambiguous between 'l' and 'i'; it
                    is shorter than any 'l' in the surrounding text
                    and there also appears to be a break between the
                    body of the 'i' and the dot ]


     b. 6 f. 11 p. 129  auh in quemmanian in iuhqui meaozque, in iuhqui
                    cochizque: a tonehuaz, a chichinacaz in iyollotzin:
                    quen oquimotlachieltili in ichpochtontli,   and
                    if at times they will be poor, [if] her heart
                    will suffer pain and affliction, how will he regard
                    the maiden? ; word: they will rise   ../.. ehuazqueh,
                    m[o]-  [*****??printing error: the facsimile has
                    "meoazque", but the D&A edition has "meaozque" ]


     b. 10 f. 2 p. 23  in cualli cuachi micalini milacatzoani, momiccatlazani
                    tlacemoliniani, teochpahuazhuiani   the good shorn
                    one [is] a skirmisher, an aggressor, who hurls
                    himself to his death; a vanquisher, a sweeper
                    away [of the foe]. ; word: shorn, having a shorn
                    head   ../.. cuachic   [*****??The D&A edition
                    has "cuachi", but the facsimile has unambiguous
                    "cuachic" ]


     b. 10 f. 11 p. 178  mohuia: ye on totomitl,   it was said: "now
                    thou art an otomi." ; word: it is said   ../..
                    [il]lhuia, mo-  [*****??printing error: mohuja
                    for molhuja; D&A have mohuija, but the facsimile
                    has molhuja ]


     b. 11 f. 26 p. 271  quitoznequi, amo xacalli, tlacuauhtentli,
                    huapaltzacqui, cuauhpixollo, tlapanyo, tlachiuhqui,
                    pantlallo, atenayo, apipilhuazyo,   it means not
                    a hut, [but] a wooden house, the beams covered
                    with planks; a house covered with wood, having
                    a flat roof; flat, with earth above, with a parapet,
                    with a conduit. ; word: something covered with
                    wood   ../.. cuauhtentli, tla-  [*****??printing
                    error in D&A: tlaquauhtentlli for tlaquauhtentli;
                    facsimile has tlaquauhtentli ]


     b. 11 f. 27 p. 279  in iztac cintli, amilpanecayotl, ximmilpanecayotl,
                    chinampanecayotl, chalcahuitl, huexotzincayotl,
                    tlatepotzcayotl, tlalhuicayotl, tonayancayotl,
                    matlatzincayotl, mazahuacayotl, michoacayotl,
                    totonacayotl, anahuacayotl, atic, tepitztic, coyoltic,
                    tlacuactic, xocoyollotic, naltic, tecciztic, iztacpatic,
                    chopilotic,   the white maize ear -- that of the
                    irrigated lands, that of the fields, that of the
                    chinampas, that of chalco, that of uexotzinco,
                    that of the tlateputzca, that of the tlalhuica,
                    that from the east, that of the matlatzinca, of
                    the ma?aua, of michoacan, of the totonaca, of
                    anauac -- is small; it is hard, like a copper
                    bell -- hard, like fruit pits; it is clear; it
                    is like a seashell, very white; it is like a crystal.
                    ; word: something pertaining to Chalco   ../..
                    chalcayotl   [*****??is this an error for chalcaiutl?
                    The answer seems to be yes; in the facsimile,
                    where D&A interpret "ui", there are three minims
                    and the dot, although ambiguous, seems to be over
                    the first one. Further, this word is in the middle
                    of a series of words ending in "-cayotl". ]



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From jrabasa at berkeley.edu  Sun Aug 14 05:21:34 2011
From: jrabasa at berkeley.edu (=?utf-8?B?Ikpvc8OpIFJhYmFzYSI=?=)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 22:21:34 -0700
Subject: Errors in the D&A edition of the Florentine Codex
In-Reply-To: <20110813180235.s01vdqjlog04o48k@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.AUG.2011.222134.0700.JRABASA@BERKELEY.EDU>

Many thanks, Joe. Your observations will prove invaluable fort
understanding passages that had proved impossible.

Abrazos,

Jose


> Nocnihuan,
>
>    I was recently looking through a list of Nahuatl words from the
> Florentine
> Codex with the goal of supplying an English gloss for the ones that lacked
> one
> in my list.  My first tool is the Dibble and Anderson edition, but, where
> necessary, I check my dubits with the facsimile of the FC.  I had
> undoubtedly
> run into the word "acac" (written here over the corrected version) again
> and
> again, but had always assumed that I would someday take of the pesky
> unrecognized form.
>    Last night I finally retreated to the facsimile and, after some
> searching,
> found that my "acac" was really "ayac" (i.e., no one)!
>
>    I thought that some notes on errors in the Dibble and Anderson edition
> of
> the FC might be of interest to the group.  I give the book and page
> numbers,
> and the "f." number is only to help me locate the data item later.  My
> informal comments are at the end of block, enclosed in brackets.
>
>    Naturally, I would be glad to clarify anything that my comments
> (originally
> meant to be "talking to myself") leave unclear.
>
>    I should include a comment that many people will consider unnecessary
> --
> finding errors in a work involving the complexity of dealing with the
> paleography of the FC and the editing of the facing English and Nahuatl
> columns is not surprising.  The surprise is that THERE ARE SO FEW!!  My
> respect and admiration for Dibble and Anderson has grown with my
> continuing use of their work.
>
> Joe
>
>
>                                        acac
>      b. 2 f. 10 p. 162  ayac teahuaya, ayac mahuaya:   no one disputed
>                     with others, no one wrangled. ; word: no one,
>                     nobody   ../.. ayac   [*****??D&A transcribe this
>                     as "acac", but the facsimile is clearly "aiac" ]
>
>
> ********************
>
>
>
>      b. 2 f. 1 p. 52  auh in tlamani, in oconcahuato imal temalacac:
>                     niman ye ic huitz, oncan hualmoquetza in icaya,
>                     mihtotiticac, ixquichcapa ontlachixticac, in imal
>                     conitzticac:   and the captor, when he had gone
>                     to leave his captive on the round stone of
> gladiatorial
>                     sacrifice, thereupon went away; he stopped where
>                     he had been standing before; he stood dancing;
>                     from where he was he stood watching; he stood
>                     looking at his captive. ; word: he stands looking
>                     at him   ../.. itztihcac, con-  [*****?? shouldn't
>                     conitzicac be conitzticac?? Yes, this is a typo
>                     in D&A; I checked the facsimile and it has 't' ]
>
>
>      b. 2 f. 2 p. 57  ic tlacemilhuitiltitoque, ic tlalhuiquixtitoque,
>                     ic tlalhuinextitoque, tlalhuizoltitoque,
> ihuizolotoque,
>                     thus they sat passing all day, thus they sat
> celebrating
>                     the day, thus they sat displaying the day; they
>                     sat making the day wear away; they sat wearing
>                     the day away. ; word: waiting for gloss ../..
>                     ilhuizolohtoqueh   [*****??printing error: D&A
>                     have "ihuj?ulotoque", but the facsimile has
> "tilhuj?ulotoque" ]
>
>
>      b. 2 f. 7 p. 128  auh in ohecoc, oncan conitta, yexitontli, in
>                     oncan icac, iotexpan: anozo itenco,   and when
>                     [the god] arrived, [the priest] saw there a little
>                     foot[print], which was there on the cornmeal or
>                     at its edge. ; word: little foot, little footprint
>                     ../.. icxitontli   [*****??"iexitontli" appears
>                     in the D&A transcription, but the facsimile has
>                     "icxitontli". ]
>
>
>      b. 4 f. 3 p. 23  teicpac nemi, ic atlamattinemi, ic cuecuenoti,
>                     inix, iniyollo, in icuicanyo, in inemach, inic
>                     tlatlatiani, inic tlayolhuiani, inic cuicapiquini,
>                     inic cuicatoltecatl   so he acted superior in
>                     mind and heart, in his songs, and in his wisdom,
>                     as a poet, a designer, a composer, a master of
>                     song. ; word: poet, one who composes something
>                     ../.. tlaliani, tla-  [*****??The D&A edition
>                     has "tlatlatianj", but the facsimile of the Florentine
>                     Codex has "tlatlalianj" ]
>
>
>      b. 4 f. 9 p. 96  auh inic amo za nen tontlatlatozque:
> titlatolzacamozque,
>                     and so we shall not repeat uselessly nor reopen
>                     the discussion. ; word: we shall speak repeatedly
>                     ../.. tlatlahtozqueh, ton-  [*****??printing error:
>                     D&A have "totlatlatozque", but the facsimile has
>                     "tontlatlatozque" ]
>
>
>      b. 5 f. 1 p. 151  ic ce capitulo, oncan mitoa, in tetzahuitl
>                     in quitetzammatia: in ihcuac yoaltica, aca quicaquia:
>                     in chocaica itla tecuani, in anoce, iuhqui aca
>                     ilama chocaya:   first chapter. here are related
>                     the omens in which they believed when, at night,
>                     someone heard some wild animal cry out, or when
>                     it seemed as if some old woman wept; ; word: it
>                     was crying   ../.. chocaya   [*****??11|printing
>                     error: D&A edition has "chocaica"; the facsimile
>                     has "chocaia" ]
>
>
>      b. 6 f. 2 p. 15  ma motecuayoti, ma motleyoti in teoatl, in
> tlachinolli:
>                     may it gain ferocity, glory in war. ; word: waiting
>                     for gloss ../.. tecuayoti, mo-  [*****??this is
>                     a misprint for motecuayoti; the final character
>                     which D&A interpret as 'l' shows up in the facsimile
>                     as something ambiguous between 'l' and 'i'; it
>                     is shorter than any 'l' in the surrounding text
>                     and there also appears to be a break between the
>                     body of the 'i' and the dot ]
>
>
>      b. 6 f. 11 p. 129  auh in quemmanian in iuhqui meaozque, in iuhqui
>                     cochizque: a tonehuaz, a chichinacaz in iyollotzin:
>                     quen oquimotlachieltili in ichpochtontli,   and
>                     if at times they will be poor, [if] her heart
>                     will suffer pain and affliction, how will he regard
>                     the maiden? ; word: they will rise   ../.. ehuazqueh,
>                     m[o]-  [*****??printing error: the facsimile has
>                     "meoazque", but the D&A edition has "meaozque" ]
>
>
>      b. 10 f. 2 p. 23  in cualli cuachi micalini milacatzoani,
> momiccatlazani
>                     tlacemoliniani, teochpahuazhuiani   the good shorn
>                     one [is] a skirmisher, an aggressor, who hurls
>                     himself to his death; a vanquisher, a sweeper
>                     away [of the foe]. ; word: shorn, having a shorn
>                     head   ../.. cuachic   [*****??The D&A edition
>                     has "cuachi", but the facsimile has unambiguous
>                     "cuachic" ]
>
>
>      b. 10 f. 11 p. 178  mohuia: ye on totomitl,   it was said: "now
>                     thou art an otomi." ; word: it is said   ../..
>                     [il]lhuia, mo-  [*****??printing error: mohuja
>                     for molhuja; D&A have mohuija, but the facsimile
>                     has molhuja ]
>
>
>      b. 11 f. 26 p. 271  quitoznequi, amo xacalli, tlacuauhtentli,
>                     huapaltzacqui, cuauhpixollo, tlapanyo, tlachiuhqui,
>                     pantlallo, atenayo, apipilhuazyo,   it means not
>                     a hut, [but] a wooden house, the beams covered
>                     with planks; a house covered with wood, having
>                     a flat roof; flat, with earth above, with a parapet,
>                     with a conduit. ; word: something covered with
>                     wood   ../.. cuauhtentli, tla-  [*****??printing
>                     error in D&A: tlaquauhtentlli for tlaquauhtentli;
>                     facsimile has tlaquauhtentli ]
>
>
>      b. 11 f. 27 p. 279  in iztac cintli, amilpanecayotl,
> ximmilpanecayotl,
>                     chinampanecayotl, chalcahuitl, huexotzincayotl,
>                     tlatepotzcayotl, tlalhuicayotl, tonayancayotl,
>                     matlatzincayotl, mazahuacayotl, michoacayotl,
>                     totonacayotl, anahuacayotl, atic, tepitztic, coyoltic,
>                     tlacuactic, xocoyollotic, naltic, tecciztic,
> iztacpatic,
>                     chopilotic,   the white maize ear -- that of the
>                     irrigated lands, that of the fields, that of the
>                     chinampas, that of chalco, that of uexotzinco,
>                     that of the tlateputzca, that of the tlalhuica,
>                     that from the east, that of the matlatzinca, of
>                     the ma?aua, of michoacan, of the totonaca, of
>                     anauac -- is small; it is hard, like a copper
>                     bell -- hard, like fruit pits; it is clear; it
>                     is like a seashell, very white; it is like a crystal.
>                     ; word: something pertaining to Chalco   ../..
>                     chalcayotl   [*****??is this an error for chalcaiutl?
>                     The answer seems to be yes; in the facsimile,
>                     where D&A interpret "ui", there are three minims
>                     and the dot, although ambiguous, seems to be over
>                     the first one. Further, this word is in the middle
>                     of a series of words ending in "-cayotl". ]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>




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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sun Aug 14 18:16:06 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 14:16:06 -0400
Subject: Errors in the D&A edition of the Florentine Codex
In-Reply-To: <5cd29013e1a6da785a291567e45b4e3c.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.AUG.2011.141606.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

At the same time, "impossible" passages may not be impossible because 
of anything Dibble and Anderson did.

:-)




Quoting Jos? Rabasa <jrabasa at berkeley.edu>:

> Many thanks, Joe. Your observations will prove invaluable fort
> understanding passages that had proved impossible.
>
> Abrazos,
>
> Jose
>
>
>> Nocnihuan,
>>
>>    I was recently looking through a list of Nahuatl words from the
>> Florentine
>> Codex with the goal of supplying an English gloss for the ones that lacked
>> one
>> in my list.  My first tool is the Dibble and Anderson edition, but, where
>> necessary, I check my dubits with the facsimile of the FC.  I had
>> undoubtedly
>> run into the word "acac" (written here over the corrected version) again
>> and
>> again, but had always assumed that I would someday take of the pesky
>> unrecognized form.
>>    Last night I finally retreated to the facsimile and, after some
>> searching,
>> found that my "acac" was really "ayac" (i.e., no one)!
>>
>>    I thought that some notes on errors in the Dibble and Anderson edition
>> of
>> the FC might be of interest to the group.  I give the book and page
>> numbers,
>> and the "f." number is only to help me locate the data item later.  My
>> informal comments are at the end of block, enclosed in brackets.
>>
>>    Naturally, I would be glad to clarify anything that my comments
>> (originally
>> meant to be "talking to myself") leave unclear.
>>
>>    I should include a comment that many people will consider unnecessary
>> --
>> finding errors in a work involving the complexity of dealing with the
>> paleography of the FC and the editing of the facing English and Nahuatl
>> columns is not surprising.  The surprise is that THERE ARE SO FEW!!  My
>> respect and admiration for Dibble and Anderson has grown with my
>> continuing use of their work.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>                                        acac
>>      b. 2 f. 10 p. 162  ayac teahuaya, ayac mahuaya:   no one disputed
>>                     with others, no one wrangled. ; word: no one,
>>                     nobody   ../.. ayac   [*****??D&A transcribe this
>>                     as "acac", but the facsimile is clearly "aiac" ]
>>
>>
>> ********************
>>
>>
>>
>>      b. 2 f. 1 p. 52  auh in tlamani, in oconcahuato imal temalacac:
>>                     niman ye ic huitz, oncan hualmoquetza in icaya,
>>                     mihtotiticac, ixquichcapa ontlachixticac, in imal
>>                     conitzticac:   and the captor, when he had gone
>>                     to leave his captive on the round stone of
>> gladiatorial
>>                     sacrifice, thereupon went away; he stopped where
>>                     he had been standing before; he stood dancing;
>>                     from where he was he stood watching; he stood
>>                     looking at his captive. ; word: he stands looking
>>                     at him   ../.. itztihcac, con-  [*****?? shouldn't
>>                     conitzicac be conitzticac?? Yes, this is a typo
>>                     in D&A; I checked the facsimile and it has 't' ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 2 f. 2 p. 57  ic tlacemilhuitiltitoque, ic tlalhuiquixtitoque,
>>                     ic tlalhuinextitoque, tlalhuizoltitoque,
>> ihuizolotoque,
>>                     thus they sat passing all day, thus they sat
>> celebrating
>>                     the day, thus they sat displaying the day; they
>>                     sat making the day wear away; they sat wearing
>>                     the day away. ; word: waiting for gloss ../..
>>                     ilhuizolohtoqueh   [*****??printing error: D&A
>>                     have "ihuj?ulotoque", but the facsimile has
>> "tilhuj?ulotoque" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 2 f. 7 p. 128  auh in ohecoc, oncan conitta, yexitontli, in
>>                     oncan icac, iotexpan: anozo itenco,   and when
>>                     [the god] arrived, [the priest] saw there a little
>>                     foot[print], which was there on the cornmeal or
>>                     at its edge. ; word: little foot, little footprint
>>                     ../.. icxitontli   [*****??"iexitontli" appears
>>                     in the D&A transcription, but the facsimile has
>>                     "icxitontli". ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 4 f. 3 p. 23  teicpac nemi, ic atlamattinemi, ic cuecuenoti,
>>                     inix, iniyollo, in icuicanyo, in inemach, inic
>>                     tlatlatiani, inic tlayolhuiani, inic cuicapiquini,
>>                     inic cuicatoltecatl   so he acted superior in
>>                     mind and heart, in his songs, and in his wisdom,
>>                     as a poet, a designer, a composer, a master of
>>                     song. ; word: poet, one who composes something
>>                     ../.. tlaliani, tla-  [*****??The D&A edition
>>                     has "tlatlatianj", but the facsimile of the Florentine
>>                     Codex has "tlatlalianj" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 4 f. 9 p. 96  auh inic amo za nen tontlatlatozque:
>> titlatolzacamozque,
>>                     and so we shall not repeat uselessly nor reopen
>>                     the discussion. ; word: we shall speak repeatedly
>>                     ../.. tlatlahtozqueh, ton-  [*****??printing error:
>>                     D&A have "totlatlatozque", but the facsimile has
>>                     "tontlatlatozque" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 5 f. 1 p. 151  ic ce capitulo, oncan mitoa, in tetzahuitl
>>                     in quitetzammatia: in ihcuac yoaltica, aca quicaquia:
>>                     in chocaica itla tecuani, in anoce, iuhqui aca
>>                     ilama chocaya:   first chapter. here are related
>>                     the omens in which they believed when, at night,
>>                     someone heard some wild animal cry out, or when
>>                     it seemed as if some old woman wept; ; word: it
>>                     was crying   ../.. chocaya   [*****??11|printing
>>                     error: D&A edition has "chocaica"; the facsimile
>>                     has "chocaia" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 6 f. 2 p. 15  ma motecuayoti, ma motleyoti in teoatl, in
>> tlachinolli:
>>                     may it gain ferocity, glory in war. ; word: waiting
>>                     for gloss ../.. tecuayoti, mo-  [*****??this is
>>                     a misprint for motecuayoti; the final character
>>                     which D&A interpret as 'l' shows up in the facsimile
>>                     as something ambiguous between 'l' and 'i'; it
>>                     is shorter than any 'l' in the surrounding text
>>                     and there also appears to be a break between the
>>                     body of the 'i' and the dot ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 6 f. 11 p. 129  auh in quemmanian in iuhqui meaozque, in iuhqui
>>                     cochizque: a tonehuaz, a chichinacaz in iyollotzin:
>>                     quen oquimotlachieltili in ichpochtontli,   and
>>                     if at times they will be poor, [if] her heart
>>                     will suffer pain and affliction, how will he regard
>>                     the maiden? ; word: they will rise   ../.. ehuazqueh,
>>                     m[o]-  [*****??printing error: the facsimile has
>>                     "meoazque", but the D&A edition has "meaozque" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 10 f. 2 p. 23  in cualli cuachi micalini milacatzoani,
>> momiccatlazani
>>                     tlacemoliniani, teochpahuazhuiani   the good shorn
>>                     one [is] a skirmisher, an aggressor, who hurls
>>                     himself to his death; a vanquisher, a sweeper
>>                     away [of the foe]. ; word: shorn, having a shorn
>>                     head   ../.. cuachic   [*****??The D&A edition
>>                     has "cuachi", but the facsimile has unambiguous
>>                     "cuachic" ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 10 f. 11 p. 178  mohuia: ye on totomitl,   it was said: "now
>>                     thou art an otomi." ; word: it is said   ../..
>>                     [il]lhuia, mo-  [*****??printing error: mohuja
>>                     for molhuja; D&A have mohuija, but the facsimile
>>                     has molhuja ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 11 f. 26 p. 271  quitoznequi, amo xacalli, tlacuauhtentli,
>>                     huapaltzacqui, cuauhpixollo, tlapanyo, tlachiuhqui,
>>                     pantlallo, atenayo, apipilhuazyo,   it means not
>>                     a hut, [but] a wooden house, the beams covered
>>                     with planks; a house covered with wood, having
>>                     a flat roof; flat, with earth above, with a parapet,
>>                     with a conduit. ; word: something covered with
>>                     wood   ../.. cuauhtentli, tla-  [*****??printing
>>                     error in D&A: tlaquauhtentlli for tlaquauhtentli;
>>                     facsimile has tlaquauhtentli ]
>>
>>
>>      b. 11 f. 27 p. 279  in iztac cintli, amilpanecayotl,
>> ximmilpanecayotl,
>>                     chinampanecayotl, chalcahuitl, huexotzincayotl,
>>                     tlatepotzcayotl, tlalhuicayotl, tonayancayotl,
>>                     matlatzincayotl, mazahuacayotl, michoacayotl,
>>                     totonacayotl, anahuacayotl, atic, tepitztic, coyoltic,
>>                     tlacuactic, xocoyollotic, naltic, tecciztic,
>> iztacpatic,
>>                     chopilotic,   the white maize ear -- that of the
>>                     irrigated lands, that of the fields, that of the
>>                     chinampas, that of chalco, that of uexotzinco,
>>                     that of the tlateputzca, that of the tlalhuica,
>>                     that from the east, that of the matlatzinca, of
>>                     the ma?aua, of michoacan, of the totonaca, of
>>                     anauac -- is small; it is hard, like a copper
>>                     bell -- hard, like fruit pits; it is clear; it
>>                     is like a seashell, very white; it is like a crystal.
>>                     ; word: something pertaining to Chalco   ../..
>>                     chalcayotl   [*****??is this an error for chalcaiutl?
>>                     The answer seems to be yes; in the facsimile,
>>                     where D&A interpret "ui", there are three minims
>>                     and the dot, although ambiguous, seems to be over
>>                     the first one. Further, this word is in the middle
>>                     of a series of words ending in "-cayotl". ]
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From campbel at indiana.edu  Mon Aug 15 02:59:06 2011
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:59:06 -0400
Subject: Errors in the D&A edition of the Florentine Codex
In-Reply-To: <5cd29013e1a6da785a291567e45b4e3c.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.AUG.2011.225906.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Hey Jose,

   What bothers me sometimes is that, in some cases, it takes 13 head 
scratching sessions to "get it".  But on the other hand, it's good for 
one's humility. |8-)

Abrazos,

Joe


Quoting Jos? Rabasa <jrabasa at berkeley.edu>:

> Many thanks, Joe. Your observations will prove invaluable fort
> understanding passages that had proved impossible.
>
> Abrazos,
>
> Jose
>


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Aug 26 14:23:48 2011
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:23:48 -0400
Subject: Comments on the Florentine
Message-ID: <FRI.26.AUG.2011.102348.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Nocnihuan,

   When I got back from my first contact with Nahuatl in Tepoztlan in 
the summer of 1962 with Ken Hale, I first saw volumes of Dibble and 
Anderson's edition of the Florentine Codex in the University of 
Illinois library.
"WOW!!" is a very weak word to express my reaction, so you can picture 
it as "WOW-cubed!!!"  It has only grown since then.

   I'm sending you some of my notes on the Florentine, with the hope of 
a two-way communication:
  1) your comments which might modify my opinions;
  2) modifying your reading of some phrases in the text.

   The format below gives the book and page number in the D&A edition 
(the file number is for my use in locating the passage.  The "word" 
line identifies the commented portion of the phrase.  "my word gloss" 
gives my modified translation of the selected word in the Nahuatl 
phrase.  The comment line is my note (usually to myself and therefore 
informal) expressing an opposing opinion about the translation.
   I would very much appreciate comments to the contrary.

Joe

     1.
     book 1 file 1 page 27
        Nah: intla otetlaxin: inic amo cuatetlaxililoz, inic
          amo cuatepitziniloz,
          inic amo cuatetzotzonaloz, moyolmelahua.
        Eng: if they had committed adultery, so that their heads might
          not be pierced, nor crushed, nor beaten with stones, [therefore]
          they confessed.
        word: cuatetlaxililoz
        my word gloss: he will have rocks thrown at his head
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as pierced; it seems
          to involve rock throwing

     2.
     book 1 file 2 page 42
        Nah: oncan ic oquichtia.
        Eng: thus he made him a man of consequence.
        word: oquichtia
        my word gloss: he became a warrior
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "he made him a man",
          but since there is no transitive construction, it looks
          more like "in this way he became a man, a warrior"

     3.
     book 1 file 3 page 49
        Nah: ihuan in aca matzicolihuiya, ima quicuecuetza, icxi quicuecuetza,
          macopichahui, icxicopichahui, icxicuecuechca, ihixatotoco,
          tempapatlaca, tenhuihuiyoca, itech quinehua: mitoa, oquitlahuelique
          in xoxouhque tepicme.
        Eng: and if one were lame in one hand, [if] his arm quivered,
          his leg quivered, a hand became misshapen, a foot became
          misshapen, his foot shook, his eyes trembled, his lips quivered,
          his lips trembled, if he were possessed, it was said, the
          green mountain gods had become angered by him.
        word: ihixatotoco
        my word gloss: there is running of water from his eyes
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "his eyes trembled",
          but it seems more likely that it means "there is running
          of water from his eyes"

     4.
     book 2 file 2 page 58
        Nah: auh in ehuatl, ocototzauh, ocacalachuac, ocuahuac:
        Eng: and the skins were in pieces; they crackled; they were
          hard.
        word: cototzauh, o-
        my word gloss: it wrinkled, it twisted
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "were in pieces",
          but it is more likely that that it is "it wrinkled, it twisted",
          consistent with the semantics of 'cototzahui'.

     5.
     book 2 file 4 page 82
        Nah: iitztitoque,
        Eng: they lay sleepless.
        word: iitztitoqueh
        my word gloss: they lie sleepless
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as concerning sleeplessness,
          but it is more likely that it concerns "itztia" (being cold)

     6.
     book 2 file 4 page 88
        Nah: auh in icuac quimeltetequi, in ce ompeti iiechiquiuh,
          conanilia in iyollo, contlalitihui comic, tlatexohuilli
          motocayotia, mixcomitl, nauhcampa in tlaolxahualli:
        Eng: and when they slashed open the breasts of [the victims],
          when they opened the breast of one of them, they seized
          his heart; they went to place it in a vessel painted blue,
          named the cloud vessel, which was painted with rubber on
          four sides.
        word: tlalihtihui, con-
        my word gloss: they go placing it
        comment: *****??11|is this really a directional or a compound
          verb? D&A translate this as a purposive verb, but it is
          a compound verb

     7.
     book 2 file 7 page 119
        Nah: niman ic conicza in itianquiz, za iyopa, za ye connahuatia
          in tianquiztli.
        Eng: then she tramped over her market place for the last time
          before she took leave of the market place.
        word: iyohpa
        my word gloss: only time
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "last time"; it is
          more likely "only time"

     8.
     book 2 file 7 page 125
        Nah: in ocaxitico tlatzintlan, mec quimana in oncan coaxalpan.
        Eng: when he had come reaching the bottom, then he placed
          it there on the landing.
        word: ahxitico, oc-
        my word gloss: he came to bring it
        comment: *****??11| not reaching the bottom -- came to bring
          it (the chalk)

     9.
     book 2 file 7 page 125
        Nah: auh in ixquich tlacatl, zan iuh ontlantihui in quitlalcahuia,
          zan quezquinti in huel quimonaxitia, in huel ompa quimoncahua
          tocititlan:
        Eng: and everyone [else] went stopping when they left her;
          there were only few who indeed brought her, who indeed left
          her there at tocititlan.
        word: ahxitia, quimon-
        my word gloss: they bring them
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "they bring her",
          but it means "they bring them"

     10.
     book 2 file 7 page 125
        Nah: auh in ixquich tlacatl, zan iuh ontlantihui in quitlalcahuia,
          zan quezquinti in huel quimonaxitia, in huel ompa quimoncahua
          tocititlan:
        Eng: and everyone [else] went stopping when they left her;
          there were only few who indeed brought her, who indeed left
          her there at tocititlan.
        word: cahua, quimon-
        my word gloss: they leave them
        comment: *****??11|D&A translate this as "they leave her",
          but it means "they leave them"




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From egm133 at psu.edu  Wed Aug 31 18:15:21 2011
From: egm133 at psu.edu (Emma Gaalaas Mullaney)
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 14:15:21 -0400
Subject: seeking materials on maize diversity and agricultural practices
 in the Amecameca Valley
Message-ID: <WED.31.AUG.2011.141521.0400.EGM133@PSU.EDU>

(versi?n en espa?ol m?s abajo)

Dear listserv,
I am a recent student of the Nahuatl language and Nahua people, but a
longstanding student of agrarian development and indigenous land use. I am
currently in the design stage of my dissertation research, which will
explore how diverse varieties of maize, and the traditional practices that
maintain them, continue to persist, even dominate, small-scale agricultural
systems in the Amecameca Valley of Mexico's central highland region. As a
geographer, I am extremely interested in both the temporal and spatial
dimensions of local maize diversity, in how maize agricultural systems have
changed in relation to political, economic, and cultural changes since
before the Conquest, and in the social and human-environmental relationships
that give value to (and thereby produce) particular varieties of maize in a
contemporary political economy. All of which means that I am casting a wide
net to scout for historical resources (documents may be in English, Spanish,
or Nahuatl) before I begin ethnographic work next year. There are two
flavors of material that I am particularly eager to find:

1. I am really interested in learning more about the cultural history of
place names in the central highland region, particularly the valley between
Amecameca and Chalco (just southeast of D.F.). Any recommendations on
historical resources related to this area would be most appreciated

2. Since I will be researching an environmental history of maize diversity
and agricultural systems in the Amecameca Valley, I would also be very
grateful for advice on where to find literature regarding environmental and
agricultural change in the region. I am looking for anything from
Nahuatl-language archival documents that mention maize/agriculture to
scholarly work on relevant topics, and am interested in change over a wide
temporal scope, from the 16th century to the present day.

Please send any advice to me off-listserv, and I would be happy to compile a
digest and post it later if that would be of interest to anyone.
Thank you very much for your time and attention.
All the best,
Emma

Soy un estudiante nuevo de la lengua n?huatl y los nahuas, pero un
estudiante de muchos a?os del desarrollo agrario y de las practicas
ind?genas de uso de la tierra. En el momento, estoy dise?ando mi tesis
doctoral, que explorar? c?mo diversas variedades de ma?z, y las pr?cticas
tradicionales que los mantienen, persisten en los sistemas agr?colas en el
valle de Amecameca de la regi?n central de M?xico. Soy ge?grafa, y por ello
estoy muy interesada en las dimensiones temporal y espacial de la diversidad
del ma?z local, en la manera en que sistemas agr?colas de ma?z han cambiado
en relaci?n a los cambios pol?ticos, econ?micos y culturales desde antes de
la Conquista, y en las relaciones sociales y humanas-medioambientales que
dan valor a (y por lo tanto producir) variedades diversas de ma?z en una
econom?a pol?tica contempor?nea. Basicamente, estoy buscando los recursos
hist?ricos (los documentos pueden estar en Ingl?s, espa?ol o n?huatl) antes
de que comience el trabajo etnogr?fico del pr?ximo a?o. Hay dos tipos de
material que estoy particularmente ansiosa de encontrar:

1. Estoy muy interesada a aprender m?s sobre la historia cultural de los
top?nimos en la regi?n central del altiplano, sobre todo el valle entre
Amecameca y Chalco (justo al sureste del DF). Cualquier recomendaci?n sobre
los recursos hist?ricos relacionados con este ?mbito ser? muy apreciada

2. Por mi investiga de una historia ambiental de la diversidad del ma?z y
los sistemas agr?colas en el valle de Amecameca, yo tambi?n estar?a muy
agradecido para el consejo sobre d?nde encontrar literatura sobre el cambio
ambiental y agr?cola en la regi?n. Estoy buscando algo de n?huatl, lengua
documentos de archivo que se menciona el ma?z / agricultura y tambi?n el
trabajo acad?mico sobre temas de inter?s, y estoy interesada en la cambia
agricultural de un ?mbito temporal amplio, desde el siglo 16 hasta la
actualidad.

Por favor env?e cualquier consejo que me fuera de la lista de distribuci?n,
y yo estar?a feliz de elaborar un informe y publicarlo m?s adelante, si que
ser?a de inter?s para nadie.
Muchas gracias por su tiempo y atenci?n.
Que tengan un buen dia,
Emma
-- 
Emma Gaalaas Mullaney
Geography & Women's Studies
Pennsylvania State University
734.355.3790
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