From christa.muths at gmail.com  Thu Feb 10 17:37:43 2011
From: christa.muths at gmail.com (Christa Muths)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:37:43 +0100
Subject: Ixtlahuac
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.183743.0100.CHRISTA.MUTHS@GMAIL.COM>

Hola,

does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??

I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
the list.

Saludos

Christa
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From nekopixan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 10 17:46:32 2011
From: nekopixan at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fernando_P=E9rez?=)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 11:46:32 -0600
Subject: Ixtlahuac
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinaCYkibBdQG2wuB-rC-dP1iO51as=D8=0iWdWD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.114632.0600.NEKOPIXAN@GMAIL.COM>

It means "Valley" :)



On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Christa Muths <christa.muths at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hola,
>
> does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??
>
> I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
> the list.
>
> Saludos
>
> Christa
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
*Fernando Pérez*
*Lic. en Idiomas*
*Traductor en-fr-de-jp-es*
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 18:17:34 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 13:17:34 -0500
Subject: Ixtlahuac
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinaCYkibBdQG2wuB-rC-dP1iO51as=D8=0iWdWD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.131734.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Christa Muths <christa.muths at gmail.com>:

> Hola,
>
> does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??
>
> I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
> the list.
>
> Saludos
>
> Christa
>

Christa:

This term appears to be from the verb ixtla:hua 'to pay off a debt' or 
'to have a debt paid'. The verb is normally reflexive or transitive, so 
the lack of a pronominal prefix here is a little strange. But it 
appears to the singular third-person past tense of that verb, which 
would also give you a term with an adjectival meaning in English, 'paid 
off', akin, say, to catza:huac 'dirty' or mela:huac 'straight'.

Michael





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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 18:35:56 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 13:35:56 -0500
Subject: Ixtlahuac
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimWVmgzEPAZ-Vjukpv9xaSMnsU-sAJks4n56KCO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.133556.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

It doesn't mean "valley" per se, but Christa word could be and probably 
is the locative form of 'flat land', ixtla:huatl -> ixtla:huac 
(ixtla:huatl + -co)

That's most likely your translation, Christa, provided the context is 
accepting.

:-)

Michael


Quoting Fernando Pérez <nekopixan at gmail.com>:

> It means "Valley" :)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Christa Muths
> <christa.muths at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hola,
>>
>> does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??
>>
>> I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
>> the list.
>>
>> Saludos
>>
>> Christa
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Fernando Pérez*
> *Lic. en Idiomas*
> *Traductor en-fr-de-jp-es*
>



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From christa.muths at gmail.com  Thu Feb 10 20:11:28 2011
From: christa.muths at gmail.com (Christa Muths)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 21:11:28 +0100
Subject: Ixtlahuac
In-Reply-To: <20110210133556.pnvyau9e9csgc4gs@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.211128.0100.CHRISTA.MUTHS@GMAIL.COM>

Hola All,

just many many thanks to all of you and I like to share the story which led
to my question. A new German publisher contacted me regarding some
publications and her surname is *Ixtlahuac.* I wrote back asking her about
her Nahutal surname as she was obviously German. She had no idea nor her
husband where the name comes from as he is American, born in Los Angeles but
of Mexican roots. His forefathers are from the Guadalajara area! Nobody in
his family knows anything about the meaning of this name and she told me
that they would be very, very happy if I could help to find out.

My late husband was from Mexico and I studied Nahutl a bit and as member of
the list ......................the rest you know.

Isn*t it amazing how beautiful things can work out? Thanks again! :-)))))))

Saludos

Christa


And here is the answer of Mercedes who wrote directly to me:


Ixtla de la deiedad ixtlacateotl antes de la llegada de los espanoles
y huan de chimalhuacan nombre original de la region.

Cercas de Guadalajara hay dos localidades de nombre Ixtlahuacan,
En Colima tambien hay un Ixtlahuacan.


On 10 February 2011 19:35, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> It doesn't mean "valley" per se, but Christa word could be and probably is
> the locative form of 'flat land', ixtla:huatl -> ixtla:huac (ixtla:huatl +
> -co)
>
> That's most likely your translation, Christa, provided the context is
> accepting.
>
> :-)
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Quoting Fernando Pérez <nekopixan at gmail.com>:
>
>  It means "Valley" :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Christa Muths
>> <christa.muths at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>  Hola,
>>>
>>> does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??
>>>
>>> I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
>>> the list.
>>>
>>> Saludos
>>>
>>> Christa
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> *Fernando Pérez*
>> *Lic. en Idiomas*
>> *Traductor en-fr-de-jp-es*
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
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From gwhitta at gwdg.de  Fri Feb 11 10:11:39 2011
From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:11:39 +0100
Subject: Ixtlahuac
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1297360801.30434.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.111139.0100.GWHITTA@GWDG.DE>

Dear Christa,

You'll probably get several takers on this, but anyway here's one analysis:

Ixtla:huac is a locative expression composed of the noun ixtla:hua-tl
'plain' and the postposition -c 'at, on, in, by'. So, together this means
'On the Plain'.

By the way, place names ending in ixtla:hua-ca:n, e.g. Co:a:ixtla:huaca:n,
should be distinguished from the many that end in -hua'-ca:n, although
they look identical in most non-linguistic citations.

Best wishes,
Gordon


> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Ixtlahuac

> Hola,
>
> does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??
>
> I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
> the list.
>
> Saludos
>
> Christa

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gordon Whittaker
Professor
Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik
Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie
Universitaet Goettingen
Humboldtallee 19
37073 Goettingen
Germany
tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333
tel. (office): ++49-551-394188
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From rdurkan at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 10 23:09:47 2011
From: rdurkan at hotmail.com (Richard Durkan)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:09:47 +0000
Subject: Translating religion and politics
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.230947.0000.RDURKAN@HOTMAIL.COM>


Does anyone know of any studies of or specialists in the history of Bible translation into the indigenous languages of the Americas and the influence such work had on developing written languages and standardized language, as in other parts of the world?
 
I would also be interested in the experience of translators of other 'sacred texts', whether religious or political (eg the Quran or the Marxist canon - Marx, Lenin, Mao etc), into vernacular languages and what linguistic and cultural problems they encountered by way of comparison and contrast with the Christian experience.
 
Richard Durkan
 		 	   		  
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From brokaw at buffalo.edu  Fri Feb 11 14:16:59 2011
From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:16:59 -0500
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <BAY147-w41E5A87BB9DB36DA4D4B7FBAEC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.091659.0500.BROKAW@BUFFALO.EDU>

Richard,

For Quechua, Alan Durston has a recent book titled _Pastoral Quechua_ 
that discusses the creation of a standard Quechua by Spanish priests. He 
argues that the dialect of Quechua that became the colonial lingua 
franca in the Andes never existed as such previously. Of course, they 
weren't translating the bible back then, but they were producing other 
kinds of religious documents.

Galen



On 2/10/2011 6:09 PM, Richard Durkan wrote:
> Does anyone know of any studies of or specialists in the history of 
> Bible translation into the indigenous languages of the Americas and 
> the influence such work had on developing written languages and 
> standardized language, as in other parts of the world?
>
> I would also be interested in the experience of translators of other 
> 'sacred texts', whether religious or political (eg the Quran or the 
> Marxist canon - Marx, Lenin, Mao etc), into vernacular languages and 
> what linguistic and cultural problems they encountered by way of 
> comparison and contrast with the Christian experience.
>
> Richard Durkan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Fri Feb 11 14:35:50 2011
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 06:35:50 -0800
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <4D5544DB.9080208@buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.063550.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Don't I remember that there is a book tackling the difficulties  
priests had in the early years in "La cuenca de Mexico" trying to  
translate concepts such as "sin" and "purgatory" and trying to shoe- 
horn meanings into words in nahuatl?  I'll try to find that book's  
citation if I can get it to bubble up in my mind.


On Feb 11, 2011, at 6:16 AM, Galen Brokaw wrote:

> Richard,
>
> For Quechua, Alan Durston has a recent book titled _Pastoral  
> Quechua_ that discusses the creation of a standard Quechua by  
> Spanish priests. He argues that the dialect of Quechua that became  
> the colonial lingua franca in the Andes never existed as such  
> previously. Of course, they weren't translating the bible back then,  
> but they were producing other kinds of religious documents.
>
> Galen
>
>
>
> On 2/10/2011 6:09 PM, Richard Durkan wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know of any studies of or specialists in the history of  
>> Bible translation into the indigenous languages of the Americas and  
>> the influence such work had on developing written languages and  
>> standardized language, as in other parts of the world?
>>
>> I would also be interested in the experience of translators of  
>> other 'sacred texts', whether religious or political (eg the Quran  
>> or the Marxist canon - Marx, Lenin, Mao etc), into vernacular  
>> languages and what linguistic and cultural problems they  
>> encountered by way of comparison and contrast with the Christian  
>> experience.
>>
>> Richard Durkan
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
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http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Feb 11 14:39:09 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:39:09 -0500
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <BAY147-w41E5A87BB9DB36DA4D4B7FBAEC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.093909.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Certainly the development of written Nahuatl, using Latin characters, began with 
efforts to convert the natives to Christianity.  In the 16th century, however, 
the Catholic Church prohibited the translation of the Bible into the vernacular. 
  Only the Vulgate could be used.  Consequently, those friars who did translate 
the Bible into Nahuatl ran into real trouble with the Church.

The best study on the difficulty of dealing with the nuance of Christian 
theology in Nahuatl is still Louise Burkhart's _Slippery Earth_




-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Fri Feb 11 14:53:29 2011
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 06:53:29 -0800
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <4D554A0D.7010807@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.065329.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

AhA!   Thanks.

On Feb 11, 2011, at 6:39 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:

> Certainly the development of written Nahuatl, using Latin  
> characters, began with efforts to convert the natives to  
> Christianity.  In the 16th century, however, the Catholic Church  
> prohibited the translation of the Bible into the vernacular.  Only  
> the Vulgate could be used.  Consequently, those friars who did  
> translate the Bible into Nahuatl ran into real trouble with the  
> Church.
>
> The best study on the difficulty of dealing with the nuance of  
> Christian theology in Nahuatl is still Louise Burkhart's _Slippery  
> Earth_
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Feb 11 15:01:25 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:01:25 -0500
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <5BB5B2B9-9B4F-4C6C-B648-F234DFAA7F5C@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.100125.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

I should probably also note that I did a study of the use of the term "ilhuica" 
as a calque for "heaven" which appeared in The Americas, vol. 62 (2006), pp. 
391-412.

-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Fri Feb 11 15:24:31 2011
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 16:24:31 +0100
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <BAY147-w41E5A87BB9DB36DA4D4B7FBAEC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.162431.0100.JUERGEN.STOWASSER@UNIVIE.AC.AT>

For Nahuatl, you may have a look at Louise Burkhart´s excellent work "The
Slippery Earth: Nahua-Christian Moral Dialogue in Sixteenth-Century Mexico",
Tucson 1989.

Very interesting sources in this context are the so-called Codices
Testerianos, colonial catechisms translated both to Nahuatl and to the Aztec
writing system "tlacuilolli" (thus you have an intersemiotic translation as
well):

Joaquín Galarza, Códices Testerianos, Catecismos indígenas. México 1992
Uta Berger: Gebetbücher in mexikanischer Bilderschrift. Europäische
Ikonographie im Manuskript Egerton 2898 aus der Sammlung des Britischen
Museums, London. 200 pp. Münster-Hamburg-London 2002

Best,

Jürgen Stowasser


-- 
juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at

0699 - 119 20 200

http://meso.univie.ac.at
http://alphabetisierung.blogspot.com



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From rude at religion.ucsb.edu  Fri Feb 11 16:42:17 2011
From: rude at religion.ucsb.edu (Rudy V. Busto)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 08:42:17 -0800
Subject: Translating religion and politics
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.084217.0800.RUDE@RELIGION.UCSB.EDU>

Take a look at both the publications by the Wycliffe Bible  
Translators, and the scholarship about the Wycliffe Bible Translators   
-- as they are preeminent (and notorious) for translation of the Bible  
into indigenous languages.

Vincent Rafael has done an excellent job of looking at the translation  
of sacred texts and doctrines in early colonial Philippines  
(Contracting Colonialism: Translation and Christian Conversion in  
Tagalog Society Under Early Spanish Rule, Duke, 1993).

For comparative purposes there is a sizeable scholarship on the  
translation of Buddhist texts beyond Sanskritized/Pali cultures.  Most  
notable is the linguistic work onthe importation of Buddhist sutras  
into China.

Rudy Busto

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From dgloster at web.de  Sat Feb 12 14:30:31 2011
From: dgloster at web.de (David Gloster)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:30:31 +0100
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <BAY147-w41E5A87BB9DB36DA4D4B7FBAEC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2011.153031.0100.DGLOSTER@WEB.DE>


Richard,
regarding the second part of your message I can recommend the following book:

Eugene A. Nida, Ph.D. (Secretary for Versions, American Bible Society)
"Bible Translating"
An Analysis of Principles and Procedures, with Special Reference to Aboriginal Languages.
Copyright 1947 by the American Bible Society, New York.

Very relevant, contains many examples from Mexican languages.
Hope you can find it somewhere.

David Gloster
Unterhaching, near Munich, Germany


---------------------
Von: "Richard Durkan" <rdurkan at hotmail.com>
Gesendet: 11.02.2011 00:09:47
An: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Betreff: [Nahuat-l] Translating religion and politics


Does anyone know of any studies of or specialists in the history of Bible translation into the indigenous languages of the Americas and the influence such work had on developing written languages and standardized language, as in other parts of the world?
 
I would also be interested in the experience of translators of other 'sacred texts', whether religious or political (eg the Quran or the Marxist canon - Marx, Lenin, Mao etc), into vernacular languages and what linguistic and cultural problems they encountered by way of comparison and contrast with the Christian experience.
 
Richard Durkan

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From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 12 06:37:27 2011
From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:37:27 -0800
Subject: cacomistles
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.223727.0800.TOMGRIGSBY@YAHOO.COM>



Estimados listeros,
 
Am I correct in referring to the tepemaxtla as a “mountain splitter?”  My reasoning is as follows:
 
The tepemaxtla  is a nocturnal, arboreal and omnivorous mammal known in English as the ring-tailed cat or cacomistle (Bassariscus sumichrasti or B.astutus) and is a member of the Procyonidae family that includes the raccoons, coatis, kinkajous, and olingos.   The etymology of the animal’s Tepoztecan name comes from the Nahuatl tepetl, “mountain or hill, and the verb maxalihui, to split, divide, or fork; I would therefore gloss the barrio’s epithet as “the mountain splitter.”  According to Redfield’s informants, the propensity to “live under the rocks” may account for the barrio’s inhabitants’ identification with the tepemaxtla and their nickname (1930:82).  
 
 [1] Alonso de Molina, 1571, Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y mexicana y castellana (Mexico City: Porrua, 1970), f. 78r.  Frances Karttunen (1992:141) writes: The sequence MAX appears in many entries in M (Molina) and S (Simeon) having to do with bifurcation…and under Maxac-tli, “thighs or crotch” (p.141). In San Andrés de la Cal the Nahuatl word maxac refers to the labia majora (Grigsby 1990; field notes.
 
Thank you for your comments,
 
Tom Grigsby
G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 
Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
GSM: 359 0899 784 081


 
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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Sat Feb 12 18:34:01 2011
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:34:01 -0500
Subject: cacomistle
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2011.133401.0500.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Dear Tom

No, tepemaxtla does not mean "mountain splitter", nor is the etymology you
propose possible. Tepe:- does indeed mean mountain, but maxtla does not come
from maxalihui or maxac - it comes from maxtlatl - meaning fox (or by
extension other small furry carnivorous mammals). Tepemaxtla simply means
mountain-fox.  The reason it is not possible to derive maxtla from maxalihui
or maxac is that that would leave the -tla element unexplained, and because
there is no known derivational process that could derive maxtla from
maxalihui or maxactli.

best regards

Magnus


From: grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:37:27 -0800 (PST)
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] cacomistles
>
> Estimados listeros,
>
>
>
> Am I correct in referring to the tepemaxtla as a “mountain splitter?”  My
> reasoning is as follows:
>
>
>
> The *tepemaxtla*  is a nocturnal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturnal>,
> arboreal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arboreal> and omnivorous<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore>mammal known
> in English as the ring-tailed cat or *cacomistle* (*Bassariscus
> sumichrasti <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacomistle>* or *B.astutus*) and
> is a member of the Procyonidae family that includes the raccoons<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procyon_%28genus%29>,
> coatis <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coati>, kinkajous<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinkajou>,
> and olingos <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olingo>.   The etymology of the
> animal’s Tepoztecan name comes from the Nahuatl *tepetl*, “mountain or
> hill, and the verb *maxalihui*, to split, divide, or fork; I would
> therefore gloss the barrio’s epithet as “the mountain splitter.”  According
> to Redfield’s informants, the propensity to “live under the rocks” may
> account for the barrio’s inhabitants’ identification with the *tepemaxtla*and their nickname (1930:82).
>
>
>
>
>  [1] Alonso de Molina, 1571, Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y
> mexicana y castellana (Mexico City: Porrua, 1970), f. 78r.  Frances
> Karttunen (1992:141) writes: The sequence MAX appears in many entries in M
> (Molina) and S (Simeon) having to do with bifurcation…and under *Maxac*-*
> tli*, “thighs or crotch” (p.141). In San Andrés de la Cal the Nahuatl word
> *maxac* refers to the *labia* *majora* (Grigsby 1990; field notes.
>
>
>
> Thank you for your comments,
>
>
>
> Tom Grigsby
> G.S. Rakovski St., No.79
> Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
> GSM: 359 0899 784 081
>
> ------------------------------
>  Get your own web address.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL>
> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>



-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
Graduate student
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sat Feb 12 19:56:29 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 14:56:29 -0500
Subject: cacomistle
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimxk-stJF0pSq26cdTWFATXsWvZ-3pisFv5TRE2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2011.145629.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Magnus:

Where can I find the documentation for your translation. It's 
interesting. Thank you.

Michael

Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:

> Dear Tom
>
> No, tepemaxtla does not mean "mountain splitter", nor is the etymology you
> propose possible. Tepe:- does indeed mean mountain, but maxtla does not come
> from maxalihui or maxac - it comes from maxtlatl - meaning fox (or by
> extension other small furry carnivorous mammals). Tepemaxtla simply means
> mountain-fox.  The reason it is not possible to derive maxtla from maxalihui
> or maxac is that that would leave the -tla element unexplained, and because
> there is no known derivational process that could derive maxtla from
> maxalihui or maxactli.
>
> best regards
>
> Magnus
>
>
> From: grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>
>> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:37:27 -0800 (PST)
>> Subject: [Nahuat-l] cacomistles
>>
>> Estimados listeros,
>>
>>
>>
>> Am I correct in referring to the tepemaxtla as a ?mountain splitter??  My
>> reasoning is as follows:
>>
>>
>>
>> The *tepemaxtla*  is a nocturnal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturnal>,
>> arboreal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arboreal> and
>> omnivorous<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore>mammal known
>> in English as the ring-tailed cat or *cacomistle* (*Bassariscus
>> sumichrasti <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacomistle>* or *B.astutus*) and
>> is a member of the Procyonidae family that includes the
>> raccoons<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procyon_%28genus%29>,
>> coatis <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coati>,
>> kinkajous<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinkajou>,
>> and olingos <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olingo>.   The etymology of the
>> animal?s Tepoztecan name comes from the Nahuatl *tepetl*, ?mountain or
>> hill, and the verb *maxalihui*, to split, divide, or fork; I would
>> therefore gloss the barrio?s epithet as ?the mountain splitter.?  According
>> to Redfield?s informants, the propensity to ?live under the rocks? may
>> account for the barrio?s inhabitants? identification with the
>> *tepemaxtla*and their nickname (1930:82).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  [1] Alonso de Molina, 1571, Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y
>> mexicana y castellana (Mexico City: Porrua, 1970), f. 78r.  Frances
>> Karttunen (1992:141) writes: The sequence MAX appears in many entries in M
>> (Molina) and S (Simeon) having to do with bifurcation?and under *Maxac*-*
>> tli*, ?thighs or crotch? (p.141). In San Andrés de la Cal the Nahuatl word
>> *maxac* refers to the *labia* *majora* (Grigsby 1990; field notes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your comments,
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom Grigsby
>> G.S. Rakovski St., No.79
>> Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
>> GSM: 359 0899 784 081
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>  Get your own web
>> address.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL>
>> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small
>> Business.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> Graduate student
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From cuecuex at gmail.com  Mon Feb 14 18:04:12 2011
From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:04:12 -0600
Subject: Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2011.120412.0600.CUECUEX@GMAIL.COM>

Hola  foristas

La pregunta  de Tom Grigsby y las respuesta de Magnus me provocaron dudas y
reflexiones que espero me ayuden a resolver y que comparto

El nombre de Maxtla el señor tepaneca  de Coyoacan, que nos es presentado
como   tirano y que fue derrotado y expulsado del valle  proviene de maxtle,
el nombre de la prenda masculina ?

Sera mera casualidad el hecho de que se llame maxtle a esa prenda masculina
que cubre por delante y detras justo en la región donde el bloque del cuerpo
humano se bifurca, se divide  en dos piernas ?

Sera mera casualidad el nombre de Maxtla dado al señor tepaneca bajo cuyo
mando se dividio el mas longevo señorio dominante en el valle?

Maxtla en la historia dividio al señorio tepaneca.

A causa de Maxtla , los nobles tlatelolcas que eran ya parte de la corte
tepaneca se enfrentaron a Maxtla, la corte tepaneca se dividió, el señorio
tepaneca se dividio los pueblos dominados por losTepanecas se
insurrecionaron y los derrocaron,  los mas fieles aliados de los tepanecas,
los otomis , se dividieron mortal y ferozmente entre los partidarios de
Maxtla y los que buscaban derrocarlos y apoyaron a los pueblos insurrectos.

Maxtle y Maxtla a lo mejor tuvieron cultural no etimologicamente el mismo
signficado de bifurcar  de dividir o de indicar lo dividido lo que se
divide.

 Actualmente en el español tenemos una gran cantidad de palabras distintas
pero con el mismo significado y ese fenomeno linguístico lo da la historia y
la cultura de las regiones donde se usan

Puede ser acaso las palabras  Matxla y Maxtle como indicador de división
presencia de arcaismos del nahuatl ?

O puede ser restos de un nahuatl dominante en cierto momento pero que ya no
lo era en el siglo XVI ?

Correctamente se nos dice que Maxtla no deriva etimologicamente de maxalihui
or maxac, Eso no se discute

Pero queda la duda ¿ en que Nahuatl ?

Eso ocurre y es cierto en el  nahuatl "clásico"  aquel que conocemos por la
gramatica creada los sabios frayles Molina, Olmos, Corichi y demás.

 Pero acaso habia un sólo nahualt en el siglo XVI? solo existía  el nahuatl
del valle de México ?.

Realmente no era así

En esa misma época del siglo XVI estan documentadas grandes variantes
dialectales del nahuatl, por ejemple el nahuatl cazcan (region Xalisco y
Zacatecas)  o el nahualt chichimeco (la Teutlalapan) nahautl que se señala
era distinto del nahuatl al hablado en el valle de México .

Y en el propio valle y regiones vecinas hay obras del siglo XVI donde se
afirma y se resaltan  las variantes entre la forma de hablar el nahuatl de
los Tlaxcaltecas con el del resto  de pobladores del valle o el de los
Texcocanos, o el de los Chalcas o el de los aztlanecos.

Y la diferencia la dan los autores del XVI o XVII  y la marcan  sólo  en la
forma de hablar el nahuatl porque el nahuatl entre los indios solo se
hablaba no se escribía. No se podía discutir sobre las ortografía porque
niguna ortografia existía. NO habia ortografía tlaxcalteca o Tenochca o
Tlaelolca , etc.

La escritura del nahuatl y su grámatica son productos de la conquista
española, son productos españoles,  si se me permite. Son productos
intelectuales  de los frayles sabios , son la asimilación de otra cultura,
la india,  a una cultura como la de los frayles gramáticos,la europea. que
entiende el valor de la palabra escrita en donde la historia no solo es
relato es sobre todo palabra escrita, navega sobre hojas de papel . La
escritura del nahuatl o su gramátiva no es indígena, no la hicieron
indígenas en el siglo XVI o XVII,  menos aun la escritura o la gramatica es
prehispánica.

Roberto Romero Gutierrez
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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Tue Feb 15 23:12:36 2011
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 18:12:36 -0500
Subject: tepemaxtla
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2011.181236.0500.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Listeros:

Es obvio que no existía un solo nahuatl en el siglo 16 o antes - pero ese
hecho no nos da libertad de inventar patrones gramaticales en estos posible
dialectos no-documentados que no se basa en evidencia. Es posible que la
palabra "maxtla" con el significado "zorra" que existe en el nahuatl de
Hueyapan y Tepoztlan origino en una palabra derivado de la raíz maxal por
medio de un patron derivado que no ha dejado otra huella en los dialectos de
Morelos? Si. Es probable? No. Ganamos alguna forma de conoscimento haciendo
la especulación? tampoco. Lo que sabemos es que desde el sigle 17 ha
existido una palabra "tepemaxtla" que sa ha traducido como "un especie de
zorro"  (asi se define en la gramatica de clavigero) - sabemos que en
Hueyapan actualmente se usa la palabra "maxtla" con el significado zorro.
Sabemos que muchos dialectos usan el prefijo tepe:- para derivar nombres de
animales con la connotacion "salvaje" o "de monte". Fuera de eso ya no
estamos practicando filología sino filosofía.

Magnus


2011/2/15 <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org>

> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
>        nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
>      (roberto romero)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: roberto romero <cuecuex at gmail.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:04:12 -0600
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
> Hola  foristas
>
> La pregunta  de Tom Grigsby y las respuesta de Magnus me provocaron dudas y
> reflexiones que espero me ayuden a resolver y que comparto
>
> El nombre de Maxtla el señor tepaneca  de Coyoacan, que nos es presentado
> como   tirano y que fue derrotado y expulsado del valle  proviene de maxtle,
> el nombre de la prenda masculina ?
>
> Sera mera casualidad el hecho de que se llame maxtle a esa prenda masculina
> que cubre por delante y detras justo en la región donde el bloque del cuerpo
> humano se bifurca, se divide  en dos piernas ?
>
> Sera mera casualidad el nombre de Maxtla dado al señor tepaneca bajo cuyo
> mando se dividio el mas longevo señorio dominante en el valle?
>
> Maxtla en la historia dividio al señorio tepaneca.
>
> A causa de Maxtla , los nobles tlatelolcas que eran ya parte de la corte
> tepaneca se enfrentaron a Maxtla, la corte tepaneca se dividió, el señorio
> tepaneca se dividio los pueblos dominados por losTepanecas se
> insurrecionaron y los derrocaron,  los mas fieles aliados de los tepanecas,
> los otomis , se dividieron mortal y ferozmente entre los partidarios de
> Maxtla y los que buscaban derrocarlos y apoyaron a los pueblos insurrectos.
>
> Maxtle y Maxtla a lo mejor tuvieron cultural no etimologicamente el mismo
> signficado de bifurcar  de dividir o de indicar lo dividido lo que se
> divide.
>
>  Actualmente en el español tenemos una gran cantidad de palabras distintas
> pero con el mismo significado y ese fenomeno linguístico lo da la historia y
> la cultura de las regiones donde se usan
>
> Puede ser acaso las palabras  Matxla y Maxtle como indicador de división
> presencia de arcaismos del nahuatl ?
>
> O puede ser restos de un nahuatl dominante en cierto momento pero que ya no
> lo era en el siglo XVI ?
>
> Correctamente se nos dice que Maxtla no deriva etimologicamente de
> maxalihui or maxac, Eso no se discute
>
> Pero queda la duda ¿ en que Nahuatl ?
>
> Eso ocurre y es cierto en el  nahuatl "clásico"  aquel que conocemos por la
> gramatica creada los sabios frayles Molina, Olmos, Corichi y demás.
>
>  Pero acaso habia un sólo nahualt en el siglo XVI? solo existía  el nahuatl
> del valle de México ?.
>
> Realmente no era así
>
> En esa misma época del siglo XVI estan documentadas grandes variantes
> dialectales del nahuatl, por ejemple el nahuatl cazcan (region Xalisco y
> Zacatecas)  o el nahualt chichimeco (la Teutlalapan) nahautl que se señala
> era distinto del nahuatl al hablado en el valle de México .
>
> Y en el propio valle y regiones vecinas hay obras del siglo XVI donde se
> afirma y se resaltan  las variantes entre la forma de hablar el nahuatl de
> los Tlaxcaltecas con el del resto  de pobladores del valle o el de los
> Texcocanos, o el de los Chalcas o el de los aztlanecos.
>
> Y la diferencia la dan los autores del XVI o XVII  y la marcan  sólo  en la
> forma de hablar el nahuatl porque el nahuatl entre los indios solo se
> hablaba no se escribía. No se podía discutir sobre las ortografía porque
> niguna ortografia existía. NO habia ortografía tlaxcalteca o Tenochca o
> Tlaelolca , etc.
>
> La escritura del nahuatl y su grámatica son productos de la conquista
> española, son productos españoles,  si se me permite. Son productos
> intelectuales  de los frayles sabios , son la asimilación de otra cultura,
> la india,  a una cultura como la de los frayles gramáticos,la europea. que
> entiende el valor de la palabra escrita en donde la historia no solo es
> relato es sobre todo palabra escrita, navega sobre hojas de papel . La
> escritura del nahuatl o su gramátiva no es indígena, no la hicieron
> indígenas en el siglo XVI o XVII,  menos aun la escritura o la gramatica es
> prehispánica.
>
> Roberto Romero Gutierrez
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
Graduate student
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Feb 16 12:29:30 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 07:29:30 -0500
Subject: tepemaxtla
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinXGmCuSNVeSs0wJTS15982mC4UMEn_xq00ABsj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.072930.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

The maxtlatl is definitely related to maxalihui through a derivational 
process.
The 'fox' term is literally 'crotch-sling', i.e., breechclout.

More details coming

Michael

Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:

> Listeros:
>
> Es obvio que no existía un solo nahuatl en el siglo 16 o antes - pero ese
> hecho no nos da libertad de inventar patrones gramaticales en estos posible
> dialectos no-documentados que no se basa en evidencia. Es posible que la
> palabra "maxtla" con el significado "zorra" que existe en el nahuatl de
> Hueyapan y Tepoztlan origino en una palabra derivado de la raíz maxal por
> medio de un patron derivado que no ha dejado otra huella en los dialectos de
> Morelos? Si. Es probable? No. Ganamos alguna forma de conoscimento haciendo
> la especulación? tampoco. Lo que sabemos es que desde el sigle 17 ha
> existido una palabra "tepemaxtla" que sa ha traducido como "un especie de
> zorro"  (asi se define en la gramatica de clavigero) - sabemos que en
> Hueyapan actualmente se usa la palabra "maxtla" con el significado zorro.
> Sabemos que muchos dialectos usan el prefijo tepe:- para derivar nombres de
> animales con la connotacion "salvaje" o "de monte". Fuera de eso ya no
> estamos practicando filología sino filosofía.
>
> Magnus
>
>
> 2011/2/15 <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org>
>
>> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
>>        nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>        http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>        nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>        nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
>>      (roberto romero)
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: roberto romero <cuecuex at gmail.com>
>> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:04:12 -0600
>> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
>> Hola  foristas
>>
>> La pregunta  de Tom Grigsby y las respuesta de Magnus me provocaron dudas y
>> reflexiones que espero me ayuden a resolver y que comparto
>>
>> El nombre de Maxtla el señor tepaneca  de Coyoacan, que nos es presentado
>> como   tirano y que fue derrotado y expulsado del valle  proviene de maxtle,
>> el nombre de la prenda masculina ?
>>
>> Sera mera casualidad el hecho de que se llame maxtle a esa prenda masculina
>> que cubre por delante y detras justo en la región donde el bloque del cuerpo
>> humano se bifurca, se divide  en dos piernas ?
>>
>> Sera mera casualidad el nombre de Maxtla dado al señor tepaneca bajo cuyo
>> mando se dividio el mas longevo señorio dominante en el valle?
>>
>> Maxtla en la historia dividio al señorio tepaneca.
>>
>> A causa de Maxtla , los nobles tlatelolcas que eran ya parte de la corte
>> tepaneca se enfrentaron a Maxtla, la corte tepaneca se dividió, el señorio
>> tepaneca se dividio los pueblos dominados por losTepanecas se
>> insurrecionaron y los derrocaron,  los mas fieles aliados de los tepanecas,
>> los otomis , se dividieron mortal y ferozmente entre los partidarios de
>> Maxtla y los que buscaban derrocarlos y apoyaron a los pueblos insurrectos.
>>
>> Maxtle y Maxtla a lo mejor tuvieron cultural no etimologicamente el mismo
>> signficado de bifurcar  de dividir o de indicar lo dividido lo que se
>> divide.
>>
>>  Actualmente en el español tenemos una gran cantidad de palabras distintas
>> pero con el mismo significado y ese fenomeno linguístico lo da la historia y
>> la cultura de las regiones donde se usan
>>
>> Puede ser acaso las palabras  Matxla y Maxtle como indicador de división
>> presencia de arcaismos del nahuatl ?
>>
>> O puede ser restos de un nahuatl dominante en cierto momento pero que ya no
>> lo era en el siglo XVI ?
>>
>> Correctamente se nos dice que Maxtla no deriva etimologicamente de
>> maxalihui or maxac, Eso no se discute
>>
>> Pero queda la duda ¿ en que Nahuatl ?
>>
>> Eso ocurre y es cierto en el  nahuatl "clásico"  aquel que conocemos por la
>> gramatica creada los sabios frayles Molina, Olmos, Corichi y demás.
>>
>>  Pero acaso habia un sólo nahualt en el siglo XVI? solo existía  el nahuatl
>> del valle de México ?.
>>
>> Realmente no era así
>>
>> En esa misma época del siglo XVI estan documentadas grandes variantes
>> dialectales del nahuatl, por ejemple el nahuatl cazcan (region Xalisco y
>> Zacatecas)  o el nahualt chichimeco (la Teutlalapan) nahautl que se señala
>> era distinto del nahuatl al hablado en el valle de México .
>>
>> Y en el propio valle y regiones vecinas hay obras del siglo XVI donde se
>> afirma y se resaltan  las variantes entre la forma de hablar el nahuatl de
>> los Tlaxcaltecas con el del resto  de pobladores del valle o el de los
>> Texcocanos, o el de los Chalcas o el de los aztlanecos.
>>
>> Y la diferencia la dan los autores del XVI o XVII  y la marcan  sólo  en la
>> forma de hablar el nahuatl porque el nahuatl entre los indios solo se
>> hablaba no se escribía. No se podía discutir sobre las ortografía porque
>> niguna ortografia existía. NO habia ortografía tlaxcalteca o Tenochca o
>> Tlaelolca , etc.
>>
>> La escritura del nahuatl y su grámatica son productos de la conquista
>> española, son productos españoles,  si se me permite. Son productos
>> intelectuales  de los frayles sabios , son la asimilación de otra cultura,
>> la india,  a una cultura como la de los frayles gramáticos,la europea. que
>> entiende el valor de la palabra escrita en donde la historia no solo es
>> relato es sobre todo palabra escrita, navega sobre hojas de papel . La
>> escritura del nahuatl o su gramátiva no es indígena, no la hicieron
>> indígenas en el siglo XVI o XVII,  menos aun la escritura o la gramatica es
>> prehispánica.
>>
>> Roberto Romero Gutierrez
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> Graduate student
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From joostkremers at fastmail.fm  Wed Feb 16 14:52:41 2011
From: joostkremers at fastmail.fm (Joost Kremers)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:52:41 +0100
Subject: tlahtoani
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.155241.0100.JOOSTKREMERS@FASTMAIL.FM>

Hi list,

The word 'tlahtoani', although a conjugated verb form, usually has the function
of a noun with the meaning 'ruler, king'. I was wondering if there is any
literature on this phenomenon, either in Nahuatl or in other Native American
languages (e.g., the film "Dances With Wolves" is full of them). Does anybody
know of any articles etc. published about this? I'd be grateful for any and all
hints and suggestions.

Thanks,

Joost



-- 
Joost Kremers, PhD
University of Göttingen
Institute for German Philology
Käte-Hamburger-Weg 3
37073 Göttingen, Germany
Tel. +49 551 39 4467
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Wed Feb 16 17:39:55 2011
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:39:55 -0500
Subject: tepemaxtla
In-Reply-To: <627734.90829.qm@web110003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.123955.0500.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Dear Tom Robert and others

No, it doesn't really. This is the kind of quasi-etymology that has gotten
many historical linguists in trouble over the centuries. Whorf did it in his
proposal of Nahuatl as a oligosynthetic language where everything was
ultimately deriveable to very few roots of a very general semantic character
which were used to compose words by processes that were completely opaque.
It is a speculative kind of etymologizing that I admit is often extremely
interesting, but which also has generally proved to be ultimately
unproductive.

In all the cases that I know of in which the max element means something
with bifurcation maxalli, maxalihui, maxactli, etc it is in fact maxa - not
max that carries the meaning of "bifurcation" - that still requires us to
explain how the a is removed when compounded with the putative -tla suffix.
Karttunen may have an explanation for this, or examples of the root
appearing as max rather than maxa but I cannot find it in the dictionary.
The -tla element you refer to is not to my knowledge attested as a
productive derivation in any current nahuatl variety, but is rather
hypothesised to be a verbal derivation from a much earlier stage, probably
proto-Nahuatl - now, proto-nahuatl was probably a fairly strict CV language
so that makes it less probable that a -tla suffix could be compunded with a
CVC root rather than a CV root at that time stage. Furthermore the -tla is
as you mention a verbal derivation which means that the word maxtla derived
from the hypothetical stem max- and the derivational suffix -tla would be a
verb that could have a meaning such as "to cleave something". But further
deriving that into nouns meaning "loincloth" and "fox" respectively is a
different thing all together.  Especially since the maxtla as verb is
unattested, (also transitive verbs require an overt argument - i.e; you
cannot just be a splitter, but you have to be a splitter of something if
there was a transitive verb maxtla it would always require an argument
affix, just like mo:tla never occurs without an argument affix). Thirdly
tepemaxtla is still obviously derived from maxtla "fox" in analogy with the
rest of the wild animals that have the tepe prefix and not from the verbal
root, so that while we might be able to argue (with two leaps of faith and a
violation of basic grammar) that maxtla "fox" originally meant "splitter" it
would still have been required to shift its meaning to fox before the tepe
prefix was added!

In sum the proposed etymology requires multiple leaps of faith, however we
choose to go about it.

best


2011/2/16 grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>

> Dear Magnus and interested parties
>
> ,
>
> Thanks so much for your input into my tepemaxtla query; I really appreciate
> it.  I don’t remember if I sent you the comments below.
>
>
>
> Karttunen writes on page 141 of her Analytical Dictionary that the sequence
> *max* (bound morpheme?) appears in Molina and Simeon having to do with
> bifurcation.  Regarding the unexplained -tla element that you cited,
> Karttunen uses the example of -tlani and its synonymous -tla as a verbal
> compounding element that conveys to bring something about(op.cit: 285. (*
> motla*, to stone someone comes to mind) Does that answer your objection to
> the unexplained element?
>
>
>
> Thanks again,
>
>
>
> Tom
>
> G.S. Rakovski St., No.79
> Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
> GSM: 359 0899 784 081
>
> --- On *Wed, 2/16/11, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>*wrote:
>
>
> From: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] tepemaxtla
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org, cuecuex at gmail.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 1:12 AM
>
>
> Listeros:
>
> Es obvio que no existía un solo nahuatl en el siglo 16 o antes - pero ese
> hecho no nos da libertad de inventar patrones gramaticales en estos posible
> dialectos no-documentados que no se basa en evidencia. Es posible que la
> palabra "maxtla" con el significado "zorra" que existe en el nahuatl de
> Hueyapan y Tepoztlan origino en una palabra derivado de la raíz maxal por
> medio de un patron derivado que no ha dejado otra huella en los dialectos de
> Morelos? Si. Es probable? No. Ganamos alguna forma de conoscimento haciendo
> la especulación? tampoco. Lo que sabemos es que desde el sigle 17 ha
> existido una palabra "tepemaxtla" que sa ha traducido como "un especie de
> zorro"  (asi se define en la gramatica de clavigero) - sabemos que en
> Hueyapan actualmente se usa la palabra "maxtla" con el significado zorro.
> Sabemos que muchos dialectos usan el prefijo tepe:- para derivar nombres de
> animales con la connotacion "salvaje" o "de monte". Fuera de eso ya no
> estamos practicando filología sino filosofía.
>
> Magnus
>
>
> 2011/2/15 <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org>
> >
>
> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
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>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org>
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
>      (roberto romero)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: roberto romero <cuecuex at gmail.com<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cuecuex at gmail.com>
> >
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:04:12 -0600
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
> Hola  foristas
>
> La pregunta  de Tom Grigsby y las respuesta de Magnus me provocaron dudas y
> reflexiones que espero me ayuden a resolver y que comparto
>
> El nombre de Maxtla el señor tepaneca  de Coyoacan, que nos es presentado
> como   tirano y que fue derrotado y expulsado del valle  proviene de maxtle,
> el nombre de la prenda masculina ?
>
> Sera mera casualidad el hecho de que se llame maxtle a esa prenda masculina
> que cubre por delante y detras justo en la región donde el bloque del cuerpo
> humano se bifurca, se divide  en dos piernas ?
>
> Sera mera casualidad el nombre de Maxtla dado al señor tepaneca bajo cuyo
> mando se dividio el mas longevo señorio dominante en el valle?
>
> Maxtla en la historia dividio al señorio tepaneca.
>
> A causa de Maxtla , los nobles tlatelolcas que eran ya parte de la corte
> tepaneca se enfrentaron a Maxtla, la corte tepaneca se dividió, el señorio
> tepaneca se dividio los pueblos dominados por losTepanecas se
> insurrecionaron y los derrocaron,  los mas fieles aliados de los tepanecas,
> los otomis , se dividieron mortal y ferozmente entre los partidarios de
> Maxtla y los que buscaban derrocarlos y apoyaron a los pueblos insurrectos.
>
> Maxtle y Maxtla a lo mejor tuvieron cultural no etimologicamente el mismo
> signficado de bifurcar  de dividir o de indicar lo dividido lo que se
> divide.
>
>  Actualmente en el español tenemos una gran cantidad de palabras distintas
> pero con el mismo significado y ese fenomeno linguístico lo da la historia y
> la cultura de las regiones donde se usan
>
> Puede ser acaso las palabras  Matxla y Maxtle como indicador de división
> presencia de arcaismos del nahuatl ?
>
> O puede ser restos de un nahuatl dominante en cierto momento pero que ya no
> lo era en el siglo XVI ?
>
> Correctamente se nos dice que Maxtla no deriva etimologicamente de
> maxalihui or maxac, Eso no se discute
>
> Pero queda la duda ¿ en que Nahuatl ?
>
> Eso ocurre y es cierto en el  nahuatl "clásico"  aquel que conocemos por la
> gramatica creada los sabios frayles Molina, Olmos, Corichi y demás.
>
>  Pero acaso habia un sólo nahualt en el siglo XVI? solo existía  el nahuatl
> del valle de México ?.
>
> Realmente no era así
>
> En esa misma época del siglo XVI estan documentadas grandes variantes
> dialectales del nahuatl, por ejemple el nahuatl cazcan (region Xalisco y
> Zacatecas)  o el nahualt chichimeco (la Teutlalapan) nahautl que se señala
> era distinto del nahuatl al hablado en el valle de México .
>
> Y en el propio valle y regiones vecinas hay obras del siglo XVI donde se
> afirma y se resaltan  las variantes entre la forma de hablar el nahuatl de
> los Tlaxcaltecas con el del resto  de pobladores del valle o el de los
> Texcocanos, o el de los Chalcas o el de los aztlanecos.
>
> Y la diferencia la dan los autores del XVI o XVII  y la marcan  sólo  en la
> forma de hablar el nahuatl porque el nahuatl entre los indios solo se
> hablaba no se escribía. No se podía discutir sobre las ortografía porque
> niguna ortografia existía. NO habia ortografía tlaxcalteca o Tenochca o
> Tlaelolca , etc.
>
> La escritura del nahuatl y su grámatica son productos de la conquista
> española, son productos españoles,  si se me permite. Son productos
> intelectuales  de los frayles sabios , son la asimilación de otra cultura,
> la india,  a una cultura como la de los frayles gramáticos,la europea. que
> entiende el valor de la palabra escrita en donde la historia no solo es
> relato es sobre todo palabra escrita, navega sobre hojas de papel . La
> escritura del nahuatl o su gramátiva no es indígena, no la hicieron
> indígenas en el siglo XVI o XVII,  menos aun la escritura o la gramatica es
> prehispánica.
>
> Roberto Romero Gutierrez
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> Graduate student
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>
> *
> US: 001 401 651 8413
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
Graduate student
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Feb 16 18:01:40 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 13:01:40 -0500
Subject: tlahtoani
In-Reply-To: <20110216145240.GB13045@pc201.uni-germanistik.gwdg.de>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.130140.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Joost, I don't know if I understand what you are referring to as a 
"phenomenon". I don't know, therefore, if I understand the question, 
and I'm not sure how this relates to "Dances with Wolves".

But, if you look at Andrews (Lesson 36, pp. 338ff., or 
Kartunnen-Campbell or even, I imagine, Sullivan, you'll find plenty of 
discussion about this use of -ni. In fact, the list has discussed this 
at some point in its history, so nahuat-l archives might be a good 
place to look.

Michael




Quoting Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>:

> Hi list,
>
> The word 'tlahtoani', although a conjugated verb form, usually has
> the function
> of a noun with the meaning 'ruler, king'. I was wondering if there is any
> literature on this phenomenon, either in Nahuatl or in other Native American
> languages (e.g., the film "Dances With Wolves" is full of them). Does anybody
> know of any articles etc. published about this? I'd be grateful for
> any and all
> hints and suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joost
>
>
>
> --
> Joost Kremers, PhD
> University of Göttingen
> Institute for German Philology
> Käte-Hamburger-Weg 3
> 37073 Göttingen, Germany
> Tel. +49 551 39 4467
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From swood at uoregon.edu  Wed Feb 16 18:08:21 2011
From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:08:21 -0800
Subject: Fwd:  tlahtoani
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.100821.0800.SWOOD@UOREGON.EDU>

Hello Joost,

If you might be interested in seeing what we have in the online Nahuatl Dictionary under "tlatoani" (also with vowel length and glottal stops marked, and other spellings), go here:  http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/index.lasso

What we offer, especially, are attestations of the term as used in colonial documents.

Best wishes,
Stephanie Wood

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>
> Date: February 16, 2011 6:52:41 AM PST
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] tlahtoani
> 
> Hi list,
> 
> The word 'tlahtoani', although a conjugated verb form, usually has the function
> of a noun with the meaning 'ruler, king'. I was wondering if there is any
> literature on this phenomenon, either in Nahuatl or in other Native American
> languages (e.g., the film "Dances With Wolves" is full of them). Does anybody
> know of any articles etc. published about this? I'd be grateful for any and all
> hints and suggestions.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Joost
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Joost Kremers, PhD
> University of Göttingen
> Institute for German Philology
> Käte-Hamburger-Weg 3
> 37073 Göttingen, Germany
> Tel. +49 551 39 4467
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 

Stephanie Wood, Ph.D.,
Director
Wired Humanities Projects
Knight Library
1299 University of Oregon
Eugene, Oregon 97403-1299
U.S.A.

Tel. 541-346-5771
swood at uoregon.edu
Office:
Room 142 Knight Library
Open Tues-Weds-Thurs, 10-5

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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Wed Feb 16 20:10:01 2011
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:10:01 -0500
Subject: maxtlatl etymology
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.151001.0500.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Listeros:

I think I can get a decent derivation of  a root maxa to maxtlatl, but it
requires a weird, although not impossible derivation, and it doesn't explain
how it would have come to mean fox.

*maxa  "to split, bifucate"  (hypothetical protonahuatl root)

*maxa-ta "something bifurcated" (ta is the original form of the the
absolutive suffix)
> apocope *(described by Dakin and Canger) *max-ta
> (whorf's law)  ma:xtla
> then for some reason the word is reinterpreted as a root and a new
absolutive suffix is attached so we get *maxtlatla
> then the last vowel is dropped  and we get maxtla-tl "something split" I
think this ought to be the etymology for loincloth at that at least has a
common meaning with bifurcate as it covers our own anatomical bifurcation.

maxactli "cave/female genital opening" would come from maxakata through the
same process. the ka of course being the perfective -ka-.

This model requires some kind of explanation of why "something split" comes
to mean "loincloth" and "fox". It also doesn't cause tepemaxtla to mean
mountain splitter, since the tepe could only have been prefxed after the
word maxtlatl had come to mean fox rather than "something split".

Also I am unsure about vowel length on the first ma syllable - I know
loincloth has length, but I am currently unsure of the others, do maxalihui
and maxactli have vowel length in classical? (I am away from my
dictionaries)


best

Magnus



On 16 February 2011 14:28, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> Well, his opus magnus is almost in the can. I imagine that the disks will
> be out there at Amazon in the fairly near future. I've been pushing him to
> do it sooner than later, but he IS getting to the point where he sees the
> work's publication happening pretty soon.
>
> I don't know if you know, and I know I don't know the whole extent of it,
> but he's taken the oldest dictionaries, and the Florentine Codex, etc. and
> put it all into machine-readable form and has analyzed, oh, I imagine 96% of
> the words, breaking them down into their component morphemes, explaining
> their derivations, and it comes with various ways of looking at all the
> material. It's actually unbelievable. Here's a sample of a couple of lines
> of one of the files. I'll attach it. Somewhere I have in my email an email
> from him telling me exactly what he has done. The above description is
> sketchy, it's humongous, that's one thing. All the coding is of course
> explained in the introduction.
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:
>
>  True, I've often wondered why he never published more about it than that
>> IJAL article, he must have a lot of wonderful notes lying around. I keep
>> working on the Hueyapan dialect btw. I certainly also respect him as an
>> etymologist, if he comes up with something I know it will be solid. Few
>> people have as good an overview of the Nahuatl lexicon as he.
>>
>>
>> On 16 February 2011 14:13, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  When your name comes up, Joe always says, "He's worked in the Hueyapan
>>> dialect."
>>> He respects that a lot.
>>>
>>> And, you know, that's where he started.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>  It might be viewed as an insult against those who still practice that
>>> kind
>>>
>>>> of etymology, but I have no reason to count you among those (the you in
>>>> my
>>>> previous clause was meant as a plural you inclduing Professor Campbell).
>>>> I
>>>> am glad you weren't offended, and sorry if I have been overly
>>>> argumentative
>>>> or abrasive.
>>>>
>>>> best
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 16 February 2011 14:00, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  I didn't mean to insult you with that, but both Roberto Romero and
>>>>>
>>>>>  Professor
>>>>>> Grigsby's proposals were completely without basis in data, motivated
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> chance resemblance between roots. I called them out on that and
>>>>>> encouraged
>>>>>> others to find some actual supprtive arguments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can construct a
>>>>>
>>>>>  viable etymology from having to do with splitting then that is great.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> But
>>>>>
>>>>>  seriously, making etymology through simple resemblance is not a viable
>>>>>
>>>>>> form
>>>>>> of practicing philology any more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Well, this is what one could term an insult, all the Whorfian
>>>>> blather.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I don't take it as such.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand the views on the problem. I see them.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, it's no problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know how long it'll take Joe to do the work, but he told me
>>>>> he's
>>>>> gathering data. /:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  --
>>>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>>>> Graduate student
>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>
>>>> Brown University
>>>> 128 Hope St.
>>>> Providence, RI 02906
>>>>
>>>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
>>>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>> Graduate student
>> Department of Anthropology
>>
>> Brown University
>> 128 Hope St.
>> Providence, RI 02906
>>
>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>>
>>
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
Graduate student
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413




-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
Graduate student
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 16 22:52:14 2011
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:52:14 +0000
Subject: maxtlatl etymology
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimDGbEWcz8qU4XrWAT0ExtPCkqJ2wB1N3RQwwGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.225214.0000.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

Could it be merely a coincidence? Lack of voiced plosives in Nahuatl makes for less choice of possible word syllables. Linguistic coincidences happen: e.g. Nahuatl teotl = Greek theos = god.

Citlalyani.

--- On Wed, 16/2/11, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:
Listeros:
I think I can get a decent derivation of  a root maxa to maxtlatl, but it requires a weird, although not impossible derivation, and it doesn't explain how it would have come to mean fox. ...



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From joostkremers at fastmail.fm  Thu Feb 17 11:50:35 2011
From: joostkremers at fastmail.fm (Joost Kremers)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:50:35 +0100
Subject: tlahtoani
In-Reply-To: <20110216130140.w8zf2kgh0k0cg8g8@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2011.125035.0100.JOOSTKREMERS@FASTMAIL.FM>

On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 01:01:40PM -0500, Michael McCafferty wrote:
> Joost, I don't know if I understand what you are referring to as a
> "phenomenon". I don't know, therefore, if I understand the question,
> and I'm not sure how this relates to "Dances with Wolves".

I'm sorry if my question was overly terse... I'll give it another try. :-) What
I'm interested in is the use of fully conjugated verbs (or ever phrases) that
are functionally equivalent to nouns. The word 'tlahtoani' as a verb means "s/he
habitually speaks", but it's often not used in this sense.

Many languages would require some formal device to turn a verb phrase into a the
equivalent of a noun, something like "he who habitually speaks" (i.e., a
relative clause), but Nahuatl apparently doesn't require this.

That's the phenomenon I'm interested in and was wondering, whether something has
been written about it.

Thanks,

Joost

-- 
Joost Kremers, PhD
University of Göttingen
Institute for German Philology
Käte-Hamburger-Weg 3
37073 Göttingen, Germany
Tel. +49 551 39 4467
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 17 15:30:05 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:30:05 -0500
Subject: tlahtoani
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2011.103005.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Joost:

There are some cases in Algonquian where verbs stand for nouns. The 
Miami-Illinois term for 'watermelon' is actually a participle, not a 
noun. I don't think these cases are very common, however, and I can't 
think of a term for "leader, chief, etc." that is a verb.

At the same time, Algonquian evinces innumerable nouns that at some  
point in the distant past evolved from verbs. For example, the 
Miami-Illinois term
/siipiiwi/ 'river' is structurally a verb, and was surely an inanimate 
third-person verb at some point in the distant past meaning "it is a 
river". In addition, the Miami-Illinois noun for 'turkey', /pileewa/, 
includes within it the morpheme for 'fly' and in fact the word probably 
did mean something like 'he flies' (or 'he flies!' back in the day, but 
no longer.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for anything that pops up in Algonquian that 
might interest you.

Michael




Quoting Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>:

> On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 01:01:40PM -0500, Michael McCafferty wrote:
>> Joost, I don't know if I understand what you are referring to as a
>> "phenomenon". I don't know, therefore, if I understand the question,
>> and I'm not sure how this relates to "Dances with Wolves".
>
> I'm sorry if my question was overly terse... I'll give it another
> try. :-) What
> I'm interested in is the use of fully conjugated verbs (or ever phrases) that
> are functionally equivalent to nouns. The word 'tlahtoani' as a verb
> means "s/he
> habitually speaks", but it's often not used in this sense.
>
> Many languages would require some formal device to turn a verb phrase
> into a the
> equivalent of a noun, something like "he who habitually speaks" (i.e., a
> relative clause), but Nahuatl apparently doesn't require this.
>
> That's the phenomenon I'm interested in and was wondering, whether
> something has
> been written about it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joost
>
> --
> Joost Kremers, PhD
> University of Göttingen
> Institute for German Philology
> Käte-Hamburger-Weg 3
> 37073 Göttingen, Germany
> Tel. +49 551 39 4467
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>




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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 15:41:22 2011
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:41:22 +0000
Subject: tlahtoani
In-Reply-To: <20110217103005.0pfbgvmm8wgk0gog@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2011.154122.0000.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

In using verbs as names, there are Semitic parallels, for example the Arabic name Yazi_d = "he causes to increase", i.e. his birth made his father's family bigger.

Citlalyani.

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

There are some cases in Algonquian where verbs stand for nouns. The Miami-Illinois term for 'watermelon' is actually a participle, not a noun. I don't think these cases are very common, however, and I can't think of a term for "leader, chief, etc." that is a verb.

At the same time, Algonquian evinces innumerable nouns that at some  point in the distant past evolved from verbs. For example, the Miami-Illinois term
/siipiiwi/ 'river' is structurally a verb, and was surely an inanimate third-person verb at some point in the distant past meaning "it is a river". In addition, the Miami-Illinois noun for 'turkey', /pileewa/, includes within it the morpheme for 'fly' and in fact the word probably did mean something like 'he flies' (or 'he flies!' back in the day, but no longer.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for anything that pops up in Algonquian that might interest you.

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From lovegren at buffalo.edu  Thu Feb 17 16:14:49 2011
From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:14:49 -0500
Subject: tlahtoani
In-Reply-To: <909199.17604.qm@web86704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2011.111449.0500.LOVEGREN@BUFFALO.EDU>

On the theoretical side, a good place to start (either by reading the
article itself or seeing the references therein) may be an article by
Stiebels in NLLT, "Noun-verb symmetries in Nahuatl nominalizations."
Natural Language & Linguistic
Theory<http://www.springerlink.com/content/0167-806x/>
Volume 17, Number 4 <http://www.springerlink.com/content/0167-806x/17/4/>,
783-834,

You can probably find a very large number of relevant works by searching for
"nominalization" or "deverbal nouns" and specifying for the languages or
language families you are interested in.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:41 AM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD <
a.appleyard at btinternet.com> wrote:

> In using verbs as names, there are Semitic parallels, for example the
> Arabic name Yazi_d = "he causes to increase", i.e. his birth made his
> father's family bigger.
>
> Citlalyani.
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 17/2/11, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>* wrote:
>
>
> There are some cases in Algonquian where verbs stand for nouns. The
> Miami-Illinois term for 'watermelon' is actually a participle, not a noun. I
> don't think these cases are very common, however, and I can't think of a
> term for "leader, chief, etc." that is a verb.
>
> At the same time, Algonquian evinces innumerable nouns that at some  point
> in the distant past evolved from verbs. For example, the Miami-Illinois term
> /siipiiwi/ 'river' is structurally a verb, and was surely an inanimate
> third-person verb at some point in the distant past meaning "it is a river".
> In addition, the Miami-Illinois noun for 'turkey', /pileewa/, includes
> within it the morpheme for 'fly' and in fact the word probably did mean
> something like 'he flies' (or 'he flies!' back in the day, but no longer.
>
> I'll keep my eyes peeled for anything that pops up in Algonquian that might
> interest you.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
Jesse Lovegren
Department of Linguistics
645 Baldy Hall
office +1 716 645 0136
cell +1 512 584 5468
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From gwhitta at gwdg.de  Fri Feb 18 08:05:03 2011
From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:05:03 +0100
Subject: Maxtlatl 'fox' as loan
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1297965602.21827.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2011.090503.0100.GWHITTA@GWDG.DE>

Hi,

I think if a search of Mesoamerican languages is made one will find
similar forms with the meaning 'fox', suggesting that the term in dialect
Nahuatl is a borrowing from an unrelated language. I don't have my files
at hand but do recall that there is a similar Mixe-Zoque term, something
like wa'as, that could be related to the immediate source of the Nahuatl
word. Attempts at etymologizing the term in connection with a verb 'split'
seem to me very unlikely to yield anything of substance. Nevertheless, the
term may have converged phonetically on maxtla- 'loincloth' (given the
fact that w and m are phonetically related).

Good hunting!

Best,
Gordon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gordon Whittaker
Professor
Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik
Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie
Universitaet Goettingen
Humboldtallee 19
37073 Goettingen
Germany
tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333
tel. (office): ++49-551-394188
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Sun Feb 20 19:38:05 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 14:38:05 -0500
Subject: 2011 Yale Summer Nahuatl Institute
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2011.143805.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

From: "John Sullivan" <idiez at me.com>
Date:  Fri, February 18, 2011

Listeros,
        The 2011 Yale Summer Nahuatl Institute will be held this year in
partnership with the Center for Latin American Studies at
Vanderbilt University. Instruction will take place on the
Vanderbilt campus in Nashville, Tennessee from June 20 to July 29.
Details regarding registration, tuition, room and board will be
updated and made available to prospective students next week via
email and on the Yale Council on Latin American and Iberian
Studies website, www.yale.edu/macmillan/lais/. Please
contact Jean Silk, jean.silk at yale.edu, for further information.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Professor of Nahua language and culture
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology
Calle Elías Amador 302
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
Mexico
Work: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.)
Home: +52 (492) 768-6048
Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195
idiez at me.com
www.macehualli.org


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From smielke at famsi.org  Wed Feb 23 17:01:25 2011
From: smielke at famsi.org (Sandy Mielke)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:01:25 -0500
Subject: FW:  2011 Yale Summer Nahuatl Institute
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2011.120125.0500.SMIELKE@FAMSI.ORG>

From: "John Sullivan" <idiez at me.com>
Date:  Fri, February 18, 2011

Listeros,
        The 2011 Yale Summer Nahuatl Institute will be held this year in
partnership with the Center for Latin American Studies at
Vanderbilt University. Instruction will take place on the
Vanderbilt campus in Nashville, Tennessee from June 20 to July 29.
Details regarding registration, tuition, room and board will be
updated and made available to prospective students next week via
email and on the Yale Council on Latin American and Iberian
Studies website, www.yale.edu/macmillan/lais/. Please
contact Jean Silk, jean.silk at yale.edu, for further information.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Professor of Nahua language and culture
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology
Calle Elías Amador 302
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
Mexico
Work: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.)
Home: +52 (492) 768-6048
Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195
idiez at me.com
www.macehualli.org


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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 24 21:54:34 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:54:34 -0500
Subject: maxtlatl etymology
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimDGbEWcz8qU4XrWAT0ExtPCkqJ2wB1N3RQwwGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2011.165434.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Sorry that I have taken such a long time to get back to this.

It's good to remember, I think, that language is an expression of a 
biological, organic entity, and necessarily exhibits the traits of a 
biological organism. In other words, it doesn’t work like a machine, 
not in the way and to the extent that grammarians and morphologists 
would like for it to.

And it doesn’t evolve like a machine, regardless of the many 
regularities that we can observe within it. It’s not metal or plastic; 
it’s more like a plant than a food processor.

I think this relates to something Joe Campbell told me, something 
Frances Karttunen had told him and John Sullivan once—-that our 
theories about morphology and grammar are always going to be like cloth 
that is a little frayed around the edges, not cloth that has a finely 
stitched edge perfectly aligned.

A little fraying of the edges is precisely, I think, what is going on 
in the case of tepe:ma:xtlatl, and nothing more.

Richard Andrews’ analysis of ma:xtlatl, which appears on page 282 of 
the second edition of his grammar, is notable:

“(ma:xa)-tl, “crotch, bifurcation” + (tla)-tl, “strip of cloth, 
leather” = (ma:x-tla)-tl “breechcloth” [The loss of the embed’s tem’s 
ephemeral /a/ is irregular. Compare (ma:xa-c)-tli-
]”

Although there are times when you can scratch your head reading 
Andrews’ grammar, I do trust the depth of his morphology sensibilities.

His analysis thus indicates that  tepe:ma:xtlatl  ‘fox’ is literally 
“mountain-breechcloth”. (Tom has told me off-list that fox skins were 
used for breechcloths. Not really that bad a name for the fox 
considering that in Northern Iroquoian the animal is called “bad-skin”.)

(But there still is a tiny part of me (the machine-oriented part, I 
fear) that keeps drawing me back to the irregular and virtually 
inalienably possessed form of ma:xatl, which is -ma:xtli, as in 
noma:xtli, moma:xtli, amomax:tli, etc., and the popularized modern term 
“maxtli”.

That tiny part keeps saying that the possessed form's final -tli (which 
Joe has pointed out to me has the same final -i as in the possessed 
form -co:zqui of co:zcatl) could have been reanalyzed by native 
speakers as the absolutive suffix -tli, and thus was dropped to give us 
the ma:x- form of the root that we see  ma:x-tlatl.  But I’m willing to 
drop that idea. :-)

Michael


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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Feb 25 02:04:26 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:04:26 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Aztlan] 800 year old Aztec wooden lintels restored]
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2011.210426.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: [Aztlan] 800 year old Aztec wooden lintels restored
From:    "michael ruggeri" <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Date:    Thu, February 24, 2011 8:29 pm
To:      aztlan at lists.famsi.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listeros,

Three wooden lintels between 500-800 years old that were part of buildings
at Tlatelolco have been restored in a process of restoration that took
place over 15 years. They will be put on display by INAH in a March
exhibit, “Six Ancient Cities of Mesoamerica: Society and Environment.” 400
Mesoamerican pieces from Monte Alban, Palenque, El Tajin, Teotihuacan,
Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco will be on display. The lintels were found in
at the water table covered with mud. They date from 1200-1520 CE. Very
sophisticated methods had to be used to save the wood after it had been
underwater for 600 years. The report details those methods.

Art Daily has the story here with a good photo;
http://www.artdaily.com/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=45227

Mike Ruggeri

Mike Ruggeri's Aztec and Toltec World
http://tinyurl.com/yqypej






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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Sun Feb 27 21:36:22 2011
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:36:22 +0000
Subject: revivalism?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=G7M=Me4wA2rnNBqVFMLcj0SZP-5T-mc4EfMAK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2011.213622.0000.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

In Mexico has there been any attempt at a revivalist movement for the old Aztec religion or of parts of it?

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From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 28 06:58:01 2011
From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 22:58:01 -0800
Subject: maxtlatl etymology
In-Reply-To: <20110224165434.f6my3v2ds8kwo8sg@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2011.225801.0800.TOMGRIGSBY@YAHOO.COM>

My thanks again to Michael McCafferty, Magnus Hansen et. al. for their help in my pursuit of the tepemaxtla and its murky etymology. 
 
I’d like to clarify a couple of points.  First, the tepemaxtla is quite definitely a cacomistle (Bassariscus sp.) in Tepoztlán as attested to by the drawings of the animal on the comparsa banners of the Santa Cruz barrio (who call themselves tepemaxtlame) as well as my conversations and observations with the local villagers over the past four decades.  According to the Nomenclatura Zoológica de las Américas, the animal goes by a lot of names.  Here’s the entry:
 
Bassariscus astutus = Bassaris astuta = babisuri, basarisco, basaride mexicano, basáride, cacomiscle, cacomistel, cacomixtle, cacomizcle, cacomiztli, cacomiztle, cuapiote, gato ardilla, gato de cola anillada, mico de noche, tepamaxtlaton, tepechichi, tepemaxtla, uayuc. (In English it is called the civet cat, miner’s cat, ring-tailed cat, and it is the state animal of Arizona).
 
The same volume unfortunately has no mention of the tepemaxtla under the Vulpini tribe – the foxes. That entry - “as a species of fox” - originally appears in Francisco Hernandez’s Plantas y animales de la Nueva España (1615), and was used later by Clavijero in his Reglas (1780), and by Remi Simeon (1885) who used Hernandez as his source.   
 
The animal is easily confused with the fox.  The genus was first described by biologist Elliott Coues in 1887 who proposed the word "bassarisk" as the English term for animals in this genus.  The etymology of Bassariscus comes from the Greek bassár (a) fox + Neo-Latin -iscus diminutive suffix < Greek –iskos.  
 
Please let me clear up a second point mentioned by Michael and attributed to me in his last posting; the Hoopa, Yurok and perhaps other northwest California/southern Oregon peoples use the cacomistle/ring-tailed cat/tepemaxtla pelt with its distinctive raccoon-like tail to make an ritual apron – not a breechclout – and it is used in their White Deer Dance/World Renewal Ceremony.
 
 Again, thanks to all of the participating listeros,
 
Tom

G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 
Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
GSM: 359 0899 784 081

--- On Thu, 2/24/11, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:


From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] maxtlatl etymology
To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 11:54 PM


Sorry that I have taken such a long time to get back to this.

It's good to remember, I think, that language is an expression of a biological, organic entity, and necessarily exhibits the traits of a biological organism. In other words, it doesn’t work like a machine, not in the way and to the extent that grammarians and morphologists would like for it to.

And it doesn’t evolve like a machine, regardless of the many regularities that we can observe within it. It’s not metal or plastic; it’s more like a plant than a food processor.

I think this relates to something Joe Campbell told me, something Frances Karttunen had told him and John Sullivan once—-that our theories about morphology and grammar are always going to be like cloth that is a little frayed around the edges, not cloth that has a finely stitched edge perfectly aligned.

A little fraying of the edges is precisely, I think, what is going on in the case of tepe:ma:xtlatl, and nothing more.

Richard Andrews’ analysis of ma:xtlatl, which appears on page 282 of the second edition of his grammar, is notable:

“(ma:xa)-tl, “crotch, bifurcation” + (tla)-tl, “strip of cloth, leather” = (ma:x-tla)-tl “breechcloth” [The loss of the embed’s tem’s ephemeral /a/ is irregular. Compare (ma:xa-c)-tli-…]”

Although there are times when you can scratch your head reading Andrews’ grammar, I do trust the depth of his morphology sensibilities.

His analysis thus indicates that  tepe:ma:xtlatl  ‘fox’ is literally “mountain-breechcloth”. (Tom has told me off-list that fox skins were used for breechcloths. Not really that bad a name for the fox considering that in Northern Iroquoian the animal is called “bad-skin”.)

(But there still is a tiny part of me (the machine-oriented part, I fear) that keeps drawing me back to the irregular and virtually inalienably possessed form of ma:xatl, which is -ma:xtli, as in noma:xtli, moma:xtli, amomax:tli, etc., and the popularized modern term “maxtli”.

That tiny part keeps saying that the possessed form's final -tli (which Joe has pointed out to me has the same final -i as in the possessed form -co:zqui of co:zcatl) could have been reanalyzed by native speakers as the absolutive suffix -tli, and thus was dropped to give us the ma:x- form of the root that we see  ma:x-tlatl.  But I’m willing to drop that idea. :-)

Michael


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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 28 15:25:38 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:25:38 -0500
Subject: maxtlatl etymology
In-Reply-To: <58498.6514.qm@web110007.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2011.102538.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Tom:

It certainly is an interesting linguistic ride.

And thanks for keeping me honest about traipsing off into biological 
and ethnological fantasy.
:-)

Michael




Quoting grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>:

> My thanks again to Michael McCafferty, Magnus Hansen et. al. for
> their help in my pursuit of the tepemaxtla and its murky etymology.
>  
> I?d like to clarify a couple of points.  First, the tepemaxtla is
> quite definitely a cacomistle (Bassariscus sp.) in Tepoztlán as
> attested to by the drawings of the animal on the comparsa banners of
> the Santa Cruz barrio (who call themselves tepemaxtlame) as well as
> my conversations and observations with the local villagers over the
> past four decades.  According to the Nomenclatura Zoológica de las
> Américas, the animal goes by a lot of names.  Here?s the entry:
>  
> Bassariscus astutus = Bassaris astuta = babisuri, basarisco, basaride
> mexicano, basáride, cacomiscle, cacomistel, cacomixtle, cacomizcle,
> cacomiztli, cacomiztle, cuapiote, gato ardilla, gato de cola
> anillada, mico de noche, tepamaxtlaton, tepechichi, tepemaxtla,
> uayuc. (In English it is called the civet cat, miner?s cat,
> ring-tailed cat, and it is the state animal of Arizona).
>  
> The same volume unfortunately has no mention of the tepemaxtla under
> the Vulpini tribe ? the foxes. That entry - ?as a species of fox? -
> originally appears in Francisco Hernandez?s Plantas y animales de la
> Nueva España (1615), and was used later by Clavijero in his Reglas
> (1780), and by Remi Simeon (1885) who used Hernandez as his source.   
>  
> The animal is easily confused with the fox.  The genus was first
> described by biologist Elliott Coues in 1887 who proposed the word
> "bassarisk" as the English term for animals in this genus.  The
> etymology of Bassariscus comes from the Greek bassár (a) fox +
> Neo-Latin -iscus diminutive suffix < Greek ?iskos. 
>  
> Please let me clear up a second point mentioned by Michael and
> attributed to me in his last posting; the Hoopa, Yurok and perhaps
> other northwest California/southern Oregon peoples use the
> cacomistle/ring-tailed cat/tepemaxtla pelt with its distinctive
> raccoon-like tail to make an ritual apron ? not a breechclout ? and
> it is used in their White Deer Dance/World Renewal Ceremony.
>  
>  Again, thanks to all of the participating listeros,
>  
> Tom
>
> G.S. Rakovski St., No.79
> Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
> GSM: 359 0899 784 081
>
> --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] maxtlatl etymology
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 11:54 PM
>
>
> Sorry that I have taken such a long time to get back to this.
>
> It's good to remember, I think, that language is an expression of a
> biological, organic entity, and necessarily exhibits the traits of a
> biological organism. In other words, it doesn?t work like a machine,
> not in the way and to the extent that grammarians and morphologists
> would like for it to.
>
> And it doesn?t evolve like a machine, regardless of the many
> regularities that we can observe within it. It?s not metal or
> plastic; it?s more like a plant than a food processor.
>
> I think this relates to something Joe Campbell told me, something
> Frances Karttunen had told him and John Sullivan once?-that our
> theories about morphology and grammar are always going to be like
> cloth that is a little frayed around the edges, not cloth that has a
> finely stitched edge perfectly aligned.
>
> A little fraying of the edges is precisely, I think, what is going on
> in the case of tepe:ma:xtlatl, and nothing more.
>
> Richard Andrews? analysis of ma:xtlatl, which appears on page 282 of
> the second edition of his grammar, is notable:
>
> ?(ma:xa)-tl, ?crotch, bifurcation? + (tla)-tl, ?strip of cloth,
> leather? = (ma:x-tla)-tl ?breechcloth? [The loss of the embed?s tem?s
> ephemeral /a/ is irregular. Compare (ma:xa-c)-tli-?]?
>
> Although there are times when you can scratch your head reading
> Andrews? grammar, I do trust the depth of his morphology
> sensibilities.
>
> His analysis thus indicates that  tepe:ma:xtlatl  ?fox? is literally
> ?mountain-breechcloth?. (Tom has told me off-list that fox skins were
> used for breechcloths. Not really that bad a name for the fox
> considering that in Northern Iroquoian the animal is called
> ?bad-skin?.)
>
> (But there still is a tiny part of me (the machine-oriented part, I
> fear) that keeps drawing me back to the irregular and virtually
> inalienably possessed form of ma:xatl, which is -ma:xtli, as in
> noma:xtli, moma:xtli, amomax:tli, etc., and the popularized modern
> term ?maxtli?.
>
> That tiny part keeps saying that the possessed form's final -tli
> (which Joe has pointed out to me has the same final -i as in the
> possessed form -co:zqui of co:zcatl) could have been reanalyzed by
> native speakers as the absolutive suffix -tli, and thus was dropped
> to give us the ma:x- form of the root that we see  ma:x-tlatl.  But
> I?m willing to drop that idea. :-)
>
> Michael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
>



_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From micc2 at cox.net  Mon Feb 28 18:46:43 2011
From: micc2 at cox.net (mario E. Aguilar)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:46:43 -0800
Subject: revivalism?
In-Reply-To: <510895.53988.qm@web86706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2011.104643.0800.MICC2@COX.NET>

Definately,

There are "Mexicanistas" who have taken the Conchero dance tradition, 
stripped it of its "European and Christian perversions" and recreated 
what they believe is the way it was in Tenochtitlan on Oct. 11, 1492.

Needless to say, everything they base their revivalist movement on, is 
based on the post conquest chronicles of the Spanish Conquistatodres 
(politically cleansed of course of human sacrifice, etc....), church 
writings (Sahagun, Molina, et al) and supposed ancient oral tradition 
that has been "handed down scretly for 500 years buy our abuelos" ....

which just happened to "reappear" after the alleged discovery of 
Ccuauatemoc's grave in Ixcateopan.

Today those of us who are traditional Danzantes (poejoratively called 
"concheritos") still follow the synchretic traditional of the 
Indo-Christian Mexican historical evolution.  But in Mexico, as well as 
in the U.S. there is a strong  fundametalist movement amongst young 
people to replace Evangelical Chirstianity with Evengelical "Mexika" 
religion.

La "divina muerte" is an example where the Catholic tradition (a virgin 
of sorts) is replaced and amplified with "coatlicue", Miccihuatl" and 
Mictlantekwtli.


/--
I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality:

"Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz


Mario E. Aguilar, PhD
www.mexicayotl.net/


On 2/27/2011 1:36 PM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote:
> In Mexico has there been any attempt at a revivalist movement for the 
> old Aztec religion or of parts of it?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Mon Feb 28 18:53:55 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:53:55 -0500
Subject: revivalism?
In-Reply-To: <4D6BED93.6040909@cox.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2011.135355.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>


There is a relatively new book on the Concheros of Mexico City

/Carrying the Word: The Concheros Dance in Mexico City/

By Susanna Rostas.Boulder, CO: University of Colorado Press, 2009.Pp. 368, 41 
photos, Notes, Glossary, Bibliography, Index.


-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From christa.muths at gmail.com  Thu Feb 10 17:37:43 2011
From: christa.muths at gmail.com (Christa Muths)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:37:43 +0100
Subject: Ixtlahuac
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.183743.0100.CHRISTA.MUTHS@GMAIL.COM>

Hola,

does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??

I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
the list.

Saludos

Christa
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From nekopixan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 10 17:46:32 2011
From: nekopixan at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fernando_P=E9rez?=)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 11:46:32 -0600
Subject: Ixtlahuac
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinaCYkibBdQG2wuB-rC-dP1iO51as=D8=0iWdWD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.114632.0600.NEKOPIXAN@GMAIL.COM>

It means "Valley" :)



On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Christa Muths <christa.muths at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hola,
>
> does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??
>
> I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
> the list.
>
> Saludos
>
> Christa
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
*Fernando P?rez*
*Lic. en Idiomas*
*Traductor en-fr-de-jp-es*
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 18:17:34 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 13:17:34 -0500
Subject: Ixtlahuac
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinaCYkibBdQG2wuB-rC-dP1iO51as=D8=0iWdWD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.131734.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Christa Muths <christa.muths at gmail.com>:

> Hola,
>
> does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??
>
> I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
> the list.
>
> Saludos
>
> Christa
>

Christa:

This term appears to be from the verb ixtla:hua 'to pay off a debt' or 
'to have a debt paid'. The verb is normally reflexive or transitive, so 
the lack of a pronominal prefix here is a little strange. But it 
appears to the singular third-person past tense of that verb, which 
would also give you a term with an adjectival meaning in English, 'paid 
off', akin, say, to catza:huac 'dirty' or mela:huac 'straight'.

Michael





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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 18:35:56 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 13:35:56 -0500
Subject: Ixtlahuac
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimWVmgzEPAZ-Vjukpv9xaSMnsU-sAJks4n56KCO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.133556.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

It doesn't mean "valley" per se, but Christa word could be and probably 
is the locative form of 'flat land', ixtla:huatl -> ixtla:huac 
(ixtla:huatl + -co)

That's most likely your translation, Christa, provided the context is 
accepting.

:-)

Michael


Quoting Fernando P?rez <nekopixan at gmail.com>:

> It means "Valley" :)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Christa Muths
> <christa.muths at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hola,
>>
>> does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??
>>
>> I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
>> the list.
>>
>> Saludos
>>
>> Christa
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Fernando P?rez*
> *Lic. en Idiomas*
> *Traductor en-fr-de-jp-es*
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
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From christa.muths at gmail.com  Thu Feb 10 20:11:28 2011
From: christa.muths at gmail.com (Christa Muths)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 21:11:28 +0100
Subject: Ixtlahuac
In-Reply-To: <20110210133556.pnvyau9e9csgc4gs@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.211128.0100.CHRISTA.MUTHS@GMAIL.COM>

Hola All,

just many many thanks to all of you and I like to share the story which led
to my question. A new German publisher contacted me regarding some
publications and her surname is *Ixtlahuac.* I wrote back asking her about
her Nahutal surname as she was obviously German. She had no idea nor her
husband where the name comes from as he is American, born in Los Angeles but
of Mexican roots. His forefathers are from the Guadalajara area! Nobody in
his family knows anything about the meaning of this name and she told me
that they would be very, very happy if I could help to find out.

My late husband was from Mexico and I studied Nahutl a bit and as member of
the list ......................the rest you know.

Isn*t it amazing how beautiful things can work out? Thanks again! :-)))))))

Saludos

Christa


And here is the answer of Mercedes who wrote directly to me:


Ixtla de la deiedad ixtlacateotl antes de la llegada de los espanoles
y huan de chimalhuacan nombre original de la region.

Cercas de Guadalajara hay dos localidades de nombre Ixtlahuacan,
En Colima tambien hay un Ixtlahuacan.


On 10 February 2011 19:35, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> It doesn't mean "valley" per se, but Christa word could be and probably is
> the locative form of 'flat land', ixtla:huatl -> ixtla:huac (ixtla:huatl +
> -co)
>
> That's most likely your translation, Christa, provided the context is
> accepting.
>
> :-)
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Quoting Fernando P?rez <nekopixan at gmail.com>:
>
>  It means "Valley" :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Christa Muths
>> <christa.muths at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>  Hola,
>>>
>>> does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??
>>>
>>> I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
>>> the list.
>>>
>>> Saludos
>>>
>>> Christa
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> *Fernando P?rez*
>> *Lic. en Idiomas*
>> *Traductor en-fr-de-jp-es*
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
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From gwhitta at gwdg.de  Fri Feb 11 10:11:39 2011
From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:11:39 +0100
Subject: Ixtlahuac
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1297360801.30434.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.111139.0100.GWHITTA@GWDG.DE>

Dear Christa,

You'll probably get several takers on this, but anyway here's one analysis:

Ixtla:huac is a locative expression composed of the noun ixtla:hua-tl
'plain' and the postposition -c 'at, on, in, by'. So, together this means
'On the Plain'.

By the way, place names ending in ixtla:hua-ca:n, e.g. Co:a:ixtla:huaca:n,
should be distinguished from the many that end in -hua'-ca:n, although
they look identical in most non-linguistic citations.

Best wishes,
Gordon


> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Ixtlahuac

> Hola,
>
> does anyone know the translation of the word* Ixtlahuac*??
>
> I tried all available dictionaries but to no avail. So I thought I'll try
> the list.
>
> Saludos
>
> Christa

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gordon Whittaker
Professor
Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik
Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie
Universitaet Goettingen
Humboldtallee 19
37073 Goettingen
Germany
tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333
tel. (office): ++49-551-394188
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From rdurkan at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 10 23:09:47 2011
From: rdurkan at hotmail.com (Richard Durkan)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:09:47 +0000
Subject: Translating religion and politics
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2011.230947.0000.RDURKAN@HOTMAIL.COM>


Does anyone know of any studies of or specialists in the history of Bible translation into the indigenous languages of the Americas and the influence such work had on developing written languages and standardized language, as in other parts of the world?
 
I would also be interested in the experience of translators of other 'sacred texts', whether religious or political (eg the Quran or the Marxist canon - Marx, Lenin, Mao etc), into vernacular languages and what linguistic and cultural problems they encountered by way of comparison and contrast with the Christian experience.
 
Richard Durkan
 		 	   		  
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From brokaw at buffalo.edu  Fri Feb 11 14:16:59 2011
From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:16:59 -0500
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <BAY147-w41E5A87BB9DB36DA4D4B7FBAEC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.091659.0500.BROKAW@BUFFALO.EDU>

Richard,

For Quechua, Alan Durston has a recent book titled _Pastoral Quechua_ 
that discusses the creation of a standard Quechua by Spanish priests. He 
argues that the dialect of Quechua that became the colonial lingua 
franca in the Andes never existed as such previously. Of course, they 
weren't translating the bible back then, but they were producing other 
kinds of religious documents.

Galen



On 2/10/2011 6:09 PM, Richard Durkan wrote:
> Does anyone know of any studies of or specialists in the history of 
> Bible translation into the indigenous languages of the Americas and 
> the influence such work had on developing written languages and 
> standardized language, as in other parts of the world?
>
> I would also be interested in the experience of translators of other 
> 'sacred texts', whether religious or political (eg the Quran or the 
> Marxist canon - Marx, Lenin, Mao etc), into vernacular languages and 
> what linguistic and cultural problems they encountered by way of 
> comparison and contrast with the Christian experience.
>
> Richard Durkan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Fri Feb 11 14:35:50 2011
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 06:35:50 -0800
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <4D5544DB.9080208@buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.063550.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

Don't I remember that there is a book tackling the difficulties  
priests had in the early years in "La cuenca de Mexico" trying to  
translate concepts such as "sin" and "purgatory" and trying to shoe- 
horn meanings into words in nahuatl?  I'll try to find that book's  
citation if I can get it to bubble up in my mind.


On Feb 11, 2011, at 6:16 AM, Galen Brokaw wrote:

> Richard,
>
> For Quechua, Alan Durston has a recent book titled _Pastoral  
> Quechua_ that discusses the creation of a standard Quechua by  
> Spanish priests. He argues that the dialect of Quechua that became  
> the colonial lingua franca in the Andes never existed as such  
> previously. Of course, they weren't translating the bible back then,  
> but they were producing other kinds of religious documents.
>
> Galen
>
>
>
> On 2/10/2011 6:09 PM, Richard Durkan wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know of any studies of or specialists in the history of  
>> Bible translation into the indigenous languages of the Americas and  
>> the influence such work had on developing written languages and  
>> standardized language, as in other parts of the world?
>>
>> I would also be interested in the experience of translators of  
>> other 'sacred texts', whether religious or political (eg the Quran  
>> or the Marxist canon - Marx, Lenin, Mao etc), into vernacular  
>> languages and what linguistic and cultural problems they  
>> encountered by way of comparison and contrast with the Christian  
>> experience.
>>
>> Richard Durkan
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Feb 11 14:39:09 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:39:09 -0500
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <BAY147-w41E5A87BB9DB36DA4D4B7FBAEC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.093909.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

Certainly the development of written Nahuatl, using Latin characters, began with 
efforts to convert the natives to Christianity.  In the 16th century, however, 
the Catholic Church prohibited the translation of the Bible into the vernacular. 
  Only the Vulgate could be used.  Consequently, those friars who did translate 
the Bible into Nahuatl ran into real trouble with the Church.

The best study on the difficulty of dealing with the nuance of Christian 
theology in Nahuatl is still Louise Burkhart's _Slippery Earth_




-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From k_salmon at ipinc.net  Fri Feb 11 14:53:29 2011
From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 06:53:29 -0800
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <4D554A0D.7010807@potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.065329.0800.KSALMON@IPINC.NET>

AhA!   Thanks.

On Feb 11, 2011, at 6:39 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote:

> Certainly the development of written Nahuatl, using Latin  
> characters, began with efforts to convert the natives to  
> Christianity.  In the 16th century, however, the Catholic Church  
> prohibited the translation of the Bible into the vernacular.  Only  
> the Vulgate could be used.  Consequently, those friars who did  
> translate the Bible into Nahuatl ran into real trouble with the  
> Church.
>
> The best study on the difficulty of dealing with the nuance of  
> Christian theology in Nahuatl is still Louise Burkhart's _Slippery  
> Earth_
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> *****************************
> John F. Schwaller
> President
> SUNY - Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
> Potsdam, NY  13676
> Tel. 315-267-2100
> FAX 315-267-2496
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Feb 11 15:01:25 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:01:25 -0500
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <5BB5B2B9-9B4F-4C6C-B648-F234DFAA7F5C@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.100125.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

I should probably also note that I did a study of the use of the term "ilhuica" 
as a calque for "heaven" which appeared in The Americas, vol. 62 (2006), pp. 
391-412.

-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Fri Feb 11 15:24:31 2011
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 16:24:31 +0100
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <BAY147-w41E5A87BB9DB36DA4D4B7FBAEC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.162431.0100.JUERGEN.STOWASSER@UNIVIE.AC.AT>

For Nahuatl, you may have a look at Louise Burkhart?s excellent work "The
Slippery Earth: Nahua-Christian Moral Dialogue in Sixteenth-Century Mexico",
Tucson 1989.

Very interesting sources in this context are the so-called Codices
Testerianos, colonial catechisms translated both to Nahuatl and to the Aztec
writing system "tlacuilolli" (thus you have an intersemiotic translation as
well):

Joaqu?n Galarza, C?dices Testerianos, Catecismos ind?genas. M?xico 1992
Uta Berger: Gebetb?cher in mexikanischer Bilderschrift. Europ?ische
Ikonographie im Manuskript Egerton 2898 aus der Sammlung des Britischen
Museums, London. 200 pp. M?nster-Hamburg-London 2002

Best,

J?rgen Stowasser


-- 
juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at

0699 - 119 20 200

http://meso.univie.ac.at
http://alphabetisierung.blogspot.com



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From rude at religion.ucsb.edu  Fri Feb 11 16:42:17 2011
From: rude at religion.ucsb.edu (Rudy V. Busto)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 08:42:17 -0800
Subject: Translating religion and politics
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.084217.0800.RUDE@RELIGION.UCSB.EDU>

Take a look at both the publications by the Wycliffe Bible  
Translators, and the scholarship about the Wycliffe Bible Translators   
-- as they are preeminent (and notorious) for translation of the Bible  
into indigenous languages.

Vincent Rafael has done an excellent job of looking at the translation  
of sacred texts and doctrines in early colonial Philippines  
(Contracting Colonialism: Translation and Christian Conversion in  
Tagalog Society Under Early Spanish Rule, Duke, 1993).

For comparative purposes there is a sizeable scholarship on the  
translation of Buddhist texts beyond Sanskritized/Pali cultures.  Most  
notable is the linguistic work onthe importation of Buddhist sutras  
into China.

Rudy Busto

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From dgloster at web.de  Sat Feb 12 14:30:31 2011
From: dgloster at web.de (David Gloster)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:30:31 +0100
Subject: Translating religion and politics
In-Reply-To: <BAY147-w41E5A87BB9DB36DA4D4B7FBAEC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2011.153031.0100.DGLOSTER@WEB.DE>


Richard,
regarding the second part of your message I can recommend the following book:

Eugene A. Nida, Ph.D. (Secretary for Versions, American Bible Society)
"Bible Translating"
An Analysis of Principles and Procedures, with Special Reference to Aboriginal Languages.
Copyright 1947 by the American Bible Society, New York.

Very relevant, contains many examples from Mexican languages.
Hope you can find it somewhere.

David Gloster
Unterhaching, near Munich, Germany


---------------------
Von: "Richard Durkan" <rdurkan at hotmail.com>
Gesendet: 11.02.2011 00:09:47
An: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Betreff: [Nahuat-l] Translating religion and politics


Does anyone know of any studies of or specialists in the history of Bible translation into the indigenous languages of the Americas and the influence such work had on developing written languages and standardized language, as in other parts of the world?
 
I would also be interested in the experience of translators of other 'sacred texts', whether religious or political (eg the Quran or the Marxist canon - Marx, Lenin, Mao etc), into vernacular languages and what linguistic and cultural problems they encountered by way of comparison and contrast with the Christian experience.
 
Richard Durkan

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From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 12 06:37:27 2011
From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:37:27 -0800
Subject: cacomistles
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2011.223727.0800.TOMGRIGSBY@YAHOO.COM>



Estimados listeros,
?
Am I correct in referring to the tepemaxtla as a ?mountain splitter??? My reasoning is as follows:
?
The tepemaxtla? is a nocturnal, arboreal and omnivorous mammal known in English as the ring-tailed cat or cacomistle (Bassariscus sumichrasti or B.astutus) and is a member of the Procyonidae family that includes the raccoons, coatis, kinkajous, and olingos.?? The etymology of the animal?s Tepoztecan name comes from the Nahuatl tepetl, ?mountain or hill, and the verb maxalihui, to split, divide, or fork; I would therefore gloss the barrio?s epithet as ?the mountain splitter.?? According to Redfield?s informants, the propensity to ?live under the rocks? may account for the barrio?s inhabitants? identification with the tepemaxtla and their nickname (1930:82).? 
?
?[1] Alonso de Molina, 1571, Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y mexicana y castellana (Mexico City: Porrua, 1970), f. 78r.? Frances Karttunen (1992:141) writes: The sequence MAX appears in many entries in M (Molina) and S (Simeon) having to do with bifurcation?and under Maxac-tli, ?thighs or crotch? (p.141). In San Andr?s de la Cal the Nahuatl word maxac refers to the labia majora (Grigsby 1990; field notes.
?
Thank you for your comments,
?
Tom Grigsby
G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 
Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
GSM: 359 0899 784 081


 
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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Sat Feb 12 18:34:01 2011
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:34:01 -0500
Subject: cacomistle
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2011.133401.0500.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Dear Tom

No, tepemaxtla does not mean "mountain splitter", nor is the etymology you
propose possible. Tepe:- does indeed mean mountain, but maxtla does not come
from maxalihui or maxac - it comes from maxtlatl - meaning fox (or by
extension other small furry carnivorous mammals). Tepemaxtla simply means
mountain-fox.  The reason it is not possible to derive maxtla from maxalihui
or maxac is that that would leave the -tla element unexplained, and because
there is no known derivational process that could derive maxtla from
maxalihui or maxactli.

best regards

Magnus


From: grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:37:27 -0800 (PST)
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] cacomistles
>
> Estimados listeros,
>
>
>
> Am I correct in referring to the tepemaxtla as a ?mountain splitter??  My
> reasoning is as follows:
>
>
>
> The *tepemaxtla*  is a nocturnal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturnal>,
> arboreal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arboreal> and omnivorous<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore>mammal known
> in English as the ring-tailed cat or *cacomistle* (*Bassariscus
> sumichrasti <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacomistle>* or *B.astutus*) and
> is a member of the Procyonidae family that includes the raccoons<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procyon_%28genus%29>,
> coatis <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coati>, kinkajous<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinkajou>,
> and olingos <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olingo>.   The etymology of the
> animal?s Tepoztecan name comes from the Nahuatl *tepetl*, ?mountain or
> hill, and the verb *maxalihui*, to split, divide, or fork; I would
> therefore gloss the barrio?s epithet as ?the mountain splitter.?  According
> to Redfield?s informants, the propensity to ?live under the rocks? may
> account for the barrio?s inhabitants? identification with the *tepemaxtla*and their nickname (1930:82).
>
>
>
>
>  [1] Alonso de Molina, 1571, Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y
> mexicana y castellana (Mexico City: Porrua, 1970), f. 78r.  Frances
> Karttunen (1992:141) writes: The sequence MAX appears in many entries in M
> (Molina) and S (Simeon) having to do with bifurcation?and under *Maxac*-*
> tli*, ?thighs or crotch? (p.141). In San Andr?s de la Cal the Nahuatl word
> *maxac* refers to the *labia* *majora* (Grigsby 1990; field notes.
>
>
>
> Thank you for your comments,
>
>
>
> Tom Grigsby
> G.S. Rakovski St., No.79
> Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
> GSM: 359 0899 784 081
>
> ------------------------------
>  Get your own web address.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL>
> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>



-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
Graduate student
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sat Feb 12 19:56:29 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 14:56:29 -0500
Subject: cacomistle
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimxk-stJF0pSq26cdTWFATXsWvZ-3pisFv5TRE2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2011.145629.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Magnus:

Where can I find the documentation for your translation. It's 
interesting. Thank you.

Michael

Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:

> Dear Tom
>
> No, tepemaxtla does not mean "mountain splitter", nor is the etymology you
> propose possible. Tepe:- does indeed mean mountain, but maxtla does not come
> from maxalihui or maxac - it comes from maxtlatl - meaning fox (or by
> extension other small furry carnivorous mammals). Tepemaxtla simply means
> mountain-fox.  The reason it is not possible to derive maxtla from maxalihui
> or maxac is that that would leave the -tla element unexplained, and because
> there is no known derivational process that could derive maxtla from
> maxalihui or maxactli.
>
> best regards
>
> Magnus
>
>
> From: grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>
>> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:37:27 -0800 (PST)
>> Subject: [Nahuat-l] cacomistles
>>
>> Estimados listeros,
>>
>>
>>
>> Am I correct in referring to the tepemaxtla as a ?mountain splitter??  My
>> reasoning is as follows:
>>
>>
>>
>> The *tepemaxtla*  is a nocturnal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturnal>,
>> arboreal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arboreal> and
>> omnivorous<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore>mammal known
>> in English as the ring-tailed cat or *cacomistle* (*Bassariscus
>> sumichrasti <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacomistle>* or *B.astutus*) and
>> is a member of the Procyonidae family that includes the
>> raccoons<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procyon_%28genus%29>,
>> coatis <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coati>,
>> kinkajous<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinkajou>,
>> and olingos <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olingo>.   The etymology of the
>> animal?s Tepoztecan name comes from the Nahuatl *tepetl*, ?mountain or
>> hill, and the verb *maxalihui*, to split, divide, or fork; I would
>> therefore gloss the barrio?s epithet as ?the mountain splitter.?  According
>> to Redfield?s informants, the propensity to ?live under the rocks? may
>> account for the barrio?s inhabitants? identification with the
>> *tepemaxtla*and their nickname (1930:82).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  [1] Alonso de Molina, 1571, Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y
>> mexicana y castellana (Mexico City: Porrua, 1970), f. 78r.  Frances
>> Karttunen (1992:141) writes: The sequence MAX appears in many entries in M
>> (Molina) and S (Simeon) having to do with bifurcation?and under *Maxac*-*
>> tli*, ?thighs or crotch? (p.141). In San Andr?s de la Cal the Nahuatl word
>> *maxac* refers to the *labia* *majora* (Grigsby 1990; field notes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your comments,
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom Grigsby
>> G.S. Rakovski St., No.79
>> Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
>> GSM: 359 0899 784 081
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>  Get your own web
>> address.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL>
>> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small
>> Business.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> Graduate student
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
>



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From cuecuex at gmail.com  Mon Feb 14 18:04:12 2011
From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:04:12 -0600
Subject: Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2011.120412.0600.CUECUEX@GMAIL.COM>

Hola  foristas

La pregunta  de Tom Grigsby y las respuesta de Magnus me provocaron dudas y
reflexiones que espero me ayuden a resolver y que comparto

El nombre de Maxtla el se?or tepaneca  de Coyoacan, que nos es presentado
como   tirano y que fue derrotado y expulsado del valle  proviene de maxtle,
el nombre de la prenda masculina ?

Sera mera casualidad el hecho de que se llame maxtle a esa prenda masculina
que cubre por delante y detras justo en la regi?n donde el bloque del cuerpo
humano se bifurca, se divide  en dos piernas ?

Sera mera casualidad el nombre de Maxtla dado al se?or tepaneca bajo cuyo
mando se dividio el mas longevo se?orio dominante en el valle?

Maxtla en la historia dividio al se?orio tepaneca.

A causa de Maxtla , los nobles tlatelolcas que eran ya parte de la corte
tepaneca se enfrentaron a Maxtla, la corte tepaneca se dividi?, el se?orio
tepaneca se dividio los pueblos dominados por losTepanecas se
insurrecionaron y los derrocaron,  los mas fieles aliados de los tepanecas,
los otomis , se dividieron mortal y ferozmente entre los partidarios de
Maxtla y los que buscaban derrocarlos y apoyaron a los pueblos insurrectos.

Maxtle y Maxtla a lo mejor tuvieron cultural no etimologicamente el mismo
signficado de bifurcar  de dividir o de indicar lo dividido lo que se
divide.

 Actualmente en el espa?ol tenemos una gran cantidad de palabras distintas
pero con el mismo significado y ese fenomeno lingu?stico lo da la historia y
la cultura de las regiones donde se usan

Puede ser acaso las palabras  Matxla y Maxtle como indicador de divisi?n
presencia de arcaismos del nahuatl ?

O puede ser restos de un nahuatl dominante en cierto momento pero que ya no
lo era en el siglo XVI ?

Correctamente se nos dice que Maxtla no deriva etimologicamente de maxalihui
or maxac, Eso no se discute

Pero queda la duda ? en que Nahuatl ?

Eso ocurre y es cierto en el  nahuatl "cl?sico"  aquel que conocemos por la
gramatica creada los sabios frayles Molina, Olmos, Corichi y dem?s.

 Pero acaso habia un s?lo nahualt en el siglo XVI? solo exist?a  el nahuatl
del valle de M?xico ?.

Realmente no era as?

En esa misma ?poca del siglo XVI estan documentadas grandes variantes
dialectales del nahuatl, por ejemple el nahuatl cazcan (region Xalisco y
Zacatecas)  o el nahualt chichimeco (la Teutlalapan) nahautl que se se?ala
era distinto del nahuatl al hablado en el valle de M?xico .

Y en el propio valle y regiones vecinas hay obras del siglo XVI donde se
afirma y se resaltan  las variantes entre la forma de hablar el nahuatl de
los Tlaxcaltecas con el del resto  de pobladores del valle o el de los
Texcocanos, o el de los Chalcas o el de los aztlanecos.

Y la diferencia la dan los autores del XVI o XVII  y la marcan  s?lo  en la
forma de hablar el nahuatl porque el nahuatl entre los indios solo se
hablaba no se escrib?a. No se pod?a discutir sobre las ortograf?a porque
niguna ortografia exist?a. NO habia ortograf?a tlaxcalteca o Tenochca o
Tlaelolca , etc.

La escritura del nahuatl y su gr?matica son productos de la conquista
espa?ola, son productos espa?oles,  si se me permite. Son productos
intelectuales  de los frayles sabios , son la asimilaci?n de otra cultura,
la india,  a una cultura como la de los frayles gram?ticos,la europea. que
entiende el valor de la palabra escrita en donde la historia no solo es
relato es sobre todo palabra escrita, navega sobre hojas de papel . La
escritura del nahuatl o su gram?tiva no es ind?gena, no la hicieron
ind?genas en el siglo XVI o XVII,  menos aun la escritura o la gramatica es
prehisp?nica.

Roberto Romero Gutierrez
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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Tue Feb 15 23:12:36 2011
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 18:12:36 -0500
Subject: tepemaxtla
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2011.181236.0500.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Listeros:

Es obvio que no exist?a un solo nahuatl en el siglo 16 o antes - pero ese
hecho no nos da libertad de inventar patrones gramaticales en estos posible
dialectos no-documentados que no se basa en evidencia. Es posible que la
palabra "maxtla" con el significado "zorra" que existe en el nahuatl de
Hueyapan y Tepoztlan origino en una palabra derivado de la ra?z maxal por
medio de un patron derivado que no ha dejado otra huella en los dialectos de
Morelos? Si. Es probable? No. Ganamos alguna forma de conoscimento haciendo
la especulaci?n? tampoco. Lo que sabemos es que desde el sigle 17 ha
existido una palabra "tepemaxtla" que sa ha traducido como "un especie de
zorro"  (asi se define en la gramatica de clavigero) - sabemos que en
Hueyapan actualmente se usa la palabra "maxtla" con el significado zorro.
Sabemos que muchos dialectos usan el prefijo tepe:- para derivar nombres de
animales con la connotacion "salvaje" o "de monte". Fuera de eso ya no
estamos practicando filolog?a sino filosof?a.

Magnus


2011/2/15 <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org>

> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
>        nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
>      (roberto romero)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: roberto romero <cuecuex at gmail.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:04:12 -0600
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
> Hola  foristas
>
> La pregunta  de Tom Grigsby y las respuesta de Magnus me provocaron dudas y
> reflexiones que espero me ayuden a resolver y que comparto
>
> El nombre de Maxtla el se?or tepaneca  de Coyoacan, que nos es presentado
> como   tirano y que fue derrotado y expulsado del valle  proviene de maxtle,
> el nombre de la prenda masculina ?
>
> Sera mera casualidad el hecho de que se llame maxtle a esa prenda masculina
> que cubre por delante y detras justo en la regi?n donde el bloque del cuerpo
> humano se bifurca, se divide  en dos piernas ?
>
> Sera mera casualidad el nombre de Maxtla dado al se?or tepaneca bajo cuyo
> mando se dividio el mas longevo se?orio dominante en el valle?
>
> Maxtla en la historia dividio al se?orio tepaneca.
>
> A causa de Maxtla , los nobles tlatelolcas que eran ya parte de la corte
> tepaneca se enfrentaron a Maxtla, la corte tepaneca se dividi?, el se?orio
> tepaneca se dividio los pueblos dominados por losTepanecas se
> insurrecionaron y los derrocaron,  los mas fieles aliados de los tepanecas,
> los otomis , se dividieron mortal y ferozmente entre los partidarios de
> Maxtla y los que buscaban derrocarlos y apoyaron a los pueblos insurrectos.
>
> Maxtle y Maxtla a lo mejor tuvieron cultural no etimologicamente el mismo
> signficado de bifurcar  de dividir o de indicar lo dividido lo que se
> divide.
>
>  Actualmente en el espa?ol tenemos una gran cantidad de palabras distintas
> pero con el mismo significado y ese fenomeno lingu?stico lo da la historia y
> la cultura de las regiones donde se usan
>
> Puede ser acaso las palabras  Matxla y Maxtle como indicador de divisi?n
> presencia de arcaismos del nahuatl ?
>
> O puede ser restos de un nahuatl dominante en cierto momento pero que ya no
> lo era en el siglo XVI ?
>
> Correctamente se nos dice que Maxtla no deriva etimologicamente de
> maxalihui or maxac, Eso no se discute
>
> Pero queda la duda ? en que Nahuatl ?
>
> Eso ocurre y es cierto en el  nahuatl "cl?sico"  aquel que conocemos por la
> gramatica creada los sabios frayles Molina, Olmos, Corichi y dem?s.
>
>  Pero acaso habia un s?lo nahualt en el siglo XVI? solo exist?a  el nahuatl
> del valle de M?xico ?.
>
> Realmente no era as?
>
> En esa misma ?poca del siglo XVI estan documentadas grandes variantes
> dialectales del nahuatl, por ejemple el nahuatl cazcan (region Xalisco y
> Zacatecas)  o el nahualt chichimeco (la Teutlalapan) nahautl que se se?ala
> era distinto del nahuatl al hablado en el valle de M?xico .
>
> Y en el propio valle y regiones vecinas hay obras del siglo XVI donde se
> afirma y se resaltan  las variantes entre la forma de hablar el nahuatl de
> los Tlaxcaltecas con el del resto  de pobladores del valle o el de los
> Texcocanos, o el de los Chalcas o el de los aztlanecos.
>
> Y la diferencia la dan los autores del XVI o XVII  y la marcan  s?lo  en la
> forma de hablar el nahuatl porque el nahuatl entre los indios solo se
> hablaba no se escrib?a. No se pod?a discutir sobre las ortograf?a porque
> niguna ortografia exist?a. NO habia ortograf?a tlaxcalteca o Tenochca o
> Tlaelolca , etc.
>
> La escritura del nahuatl y su gr?matica son productos de la conquista
> espa?ola, son productos espa?oles,  si se me permite. Son productos
> intelectuales  de los frayles sabios , son la asimilaci?n de otra cultura,
> la india,  a una cultura como la de los frayles gram?ticos,la europea. que
> entiende el valor de la palabra escrita en donde la historia no solo es
> relato es sobre todo palabra escrita, navega sobre hojas de papel . La
> escritura del nahuatl o su gram?tiva no es ind?gena, no la hicieron
> ind?genas en el siglo XVI o XVII,  menos aun la escritura o la gramatica es
> prehisp?nica.
>
> Roberto Romero Gutierrez
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
Graduate student
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Feb 16 12:29:30 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 07:29:30 -0500
Subject: tepemaxtla
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinXGmCuSNVeSs0wJTS15982mC4UMEn_xq00ABsj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.072930.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

The maxtlatl is definitely related to maxalihui through a derivational 
process.
The 'fox' term is literally 'crotch-sling', i.e., breechclout.

More details coming

Michael

Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:

> Listeros:
>
> Es obvio que no exist?a un solo nahuatl en el siglo 16 o antes - pero ese
> hecho no nos da libertad de inventar patrones gramaticales en estos posible
> dialectos no-documentados que no se basa en evidencia. Es posible que la
> palabra "maxtla" con el significado "zorra" que existe en el nahuatl de
> Hueyapan y Tepoztlan origino en una palabra derivado de la ra?z maxal por
> medio de un patron derivado que no ha dejado otra huella en los dialectos de
> Morelos? Si. Es probable? No. Ganamos alguna forma de conoscimento haciendo
> la especulaci?n? tampoco. Lo que sabemos es que desde el sigle 17 ha
> existido una palabra "tepemaxtla" que sa ha traducido como "un especie de
> zorro"  (asi se define en la gramatica de clavigero) - sabemos que en
> Hueyapan actualmente se usa la palabra "maxtla" con el significado zorro.
> Sabemos que muchos dialectos usan el prefijo tepe:- para derivar nombres de
> animales con la connotacion "salvaje" o "de monte". Fuera de eso ya no
> estamos practicando filolog?a sino filosof?a.
>
> Magnus
>
>
> 2011/2/15 <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org>
>
>> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
>>        nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>        http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>        nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>        nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
>>      (roberto romero)
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: roberto romero <cuecuex at gmail.com>
>> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:04:12 -0600
>> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
>> Hola  foristas
>>
>> La pregunta  de Tom Grigsby y las respuesta de Magnus me provocaron dudas y
>> reflexiones que espero me ayuden a resolver y que comparto
>>
>> El nombre de Maxtla el se?or tepaneca  de Coyoacan, que nos es presentado
>> como   tirano y que fue derrotado y expulsado del valle  proviene de maxtle,
>> el nombre de la prenda masculina ?
>>
>> Sera mera casualidad el hecho de que se llame maxtle a esa prenda masculina
>> que cubre por delante y detras justo en la regi?n donde el bloque del cuerpo
>> humano se bifurca, se divide  en dos piernas ?
>>
>> Sera mera casualidad el nombre de Maxtla dado al se?or tepaneca bajo cuyo
>> mando se dividio el mas longevo se?orio dominante en el valle?
>>
>> Maxtla en la historia dividio al se?orio tepaneca.
>>
>> A causa de Maxtla , los nobles tlatelolcas que eran ya parte de la corte
>> tepaneca se enfrentaron a Maxtla, la corte tepaneca se dividi?, el se?orio
>> tepaneca se dividio los pueblos dominados por losTepanecas se
>> insurrecionaron y los derrocaron,  los mas fieles aliados de los tepanecas,
>> los otomis , se dividieron mortal y ferozmente entre los partidarios de
>> Maxtla y los que buscaban derrocarlos y apoyaron a los pueblos insurrectos.
>>
>> Maxtle y Maxtla a lo mejor tuvieron cultural no etimologicamente el mismo
>> signficado de bifurcar  de dividir o de indicar lo dividido lo que se
>> divide.
>>
>>  Actualmente en el espa?ol tenemos una gran cantidad de palabras distintas
>> pero con el mismo significado y ese fenomeno lingu?stico lo da la historia y
>> la cultura de las regiones donde se usan
>>
>> Puede ser acaso las palabras  Matxla y Maxtle como indicador de divisi?n
>> presencia de arcaismos del nahuatl ?
>>
>> O puede ser restos de un nahuatl dominante en cierto momento pero que ya no
>> lo era en el siglo XVI ?
>>
>> Correctamente se nos dice que Maxtla no deriva etimologicamente de
>> maxalihui or maxac, Eso no se discute
>>
>> Pero queda la duda ? en que Nahuatl ?
>>
>> Eso ocurre y es cierto en el  nahuatl "cl?sico"  aquel que conocemos por la
>> gramatica creada los sabios frayles Molina, Olmos, Corichi y dem?s.
>>
>>  Pero acaso habia un s?lo nahualt en el siglo XVI? solo exist?a  el nahuatl
>> del valle de M?xico ?.
>>
>> Realmente no era as?
>>
>> En esa misma ?poca del siglo XVI estan documentadas grandes variantes
>> dialectales del nahuatl, por ejemple el nahuatl cazcan (region Xalisco y
>> Zacatecas)  o el nahualt chichimeco (la Teutlalapan) nahautl que se se?ala
>> era distinto del nahuatl al hablado en el valle de M?xico .
>>
>> Y en el propio valle y regiones vecinas hay obras del siglo XVI donde se
>> afirma y se resaltan  las variantes entre la forma de hablar el nahuatl de
>> los Tlaxcaltecas con el del resto  de pobladores del valle o el de los
>> Texcocanos, o el de los Chalcas o el de los aztlanecos.
>>
>> Y la diferencia la dan los autores del XVI o XVII  y la marcan  s?lo  en la
>> forma de hablar el nahuatl porque el nahuatl entre los indios solo se
>> hablaba no se escrib?a. No se pod?a discutir sobre las ortograf?a porque
>> niguna ortografia exist?a. NO habia ortograf?a tlaxcalteca o Tenochca o
>> Tlaelolca , etc.
>>
>> La escritura del nahuatl y su gr?matica son productos de la conquista
>> espa?ola, son productos espa?oles,  si se me permite. Son productos
>> intelectuales  de los frayles sabios , son la asimilaci?n de otra cultura,
>> la india,  a una cultura como la de los frayles gram?ticos,la europea. que
>> entiende el valor de la palabra escrita en donde la historia no solo es
>> relato es sobre todo palabra escrita, navega sobre hojas de papel . La
>> escritura del nahuatl o su gram?tiva no es ind?gena, no la hicieron
>> ind?genas en el siglo XVI o XVII,  menos aun la escritura o la gramatica es
>> prehisp?nica.
>>
>> Roberto Romero Gutierrez
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> Graduate student
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From joostkremers at fastmail.fm  Wed Feb 16 14:52:41 2011
From: joostkremers at fastmail.fm (Joost Kremers)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:52:41 +0100
Subject: tlahtoani
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.155241.0100.JOOSTKREMERS@FASTMAIL.FM>

Hi list,

The word 'tlahtoani', although a conjugated verb form, usually has the function
of a noun with the meaning 'ruler, king'. I was wondering if there is any
literature on this phenomenon, either in Nahuatl or in other Native American
languages (e.g., the film "Dances With Wolves" is full of them). Does anybody
know of any articles etc. published about this? I'd be grateful for any and all
hints and suggestions.

Thanks,

Joost



-- 
Joost Kremers, PhD
University of G?ttingen
Institute for German Philology
K?te-Hamburger-Weg 3
37073 G?ttingen, Germany
Tel. +49 551 39 4467
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Wed Feb 16 17:39:55 2011
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:39:55 -0500
Subject: tepemaxtla
In-Reply-To: <627734.90829.qm@web110003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.123955.0500.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Dear Tom Robert and others

No, it doesn't really. This is the kind of quasi-etymology that has gotten
many historical linguists in trouble over the centuries. Whorf did it in his
proposal of Nahuatl as a oligosynthetic language where everything was
ultimately deriveable to very few roots of a very general semantic character
which were used to compose words by processes that were completely opaque.
It is a speculative kind of etymologizing that I admit is often extremely
interesting, but which also has generally proved to be ultimately
unproductive.

In all the cases that I know of in which the max element means something
with bifurcation maxalli, maxalihui, maxactli, etc it is in fact maxa - not
max that carries the meaning of "bifurcation" - that still requires us to
explain how the a is removed when compounded with the putative -tla suffix.
Karttunen may have an explanation for this, or examples of the root
appearing as max rather than maxa but I cannot find it in the dictionary.
The -tla element you refer to is not to my knowledge attested as a
productive derivation in any current nahuatl variety, but is rather
hypothesised to be a verbal derivation from a much earlier stage, probably
proto-Nahuatl - now, proto-nahuatl was probably a fairly strict CV language
so that makes it less probable that a -tla suffix could be compunded with a
CVC root rather than a CV root at that time stage. Furthermore the -tla is
as you mention a verbal derivation which means that the word maxtla derived
from the hypothetical stem max- and the derivational suffix -tla would be a
verb that could have a meaning such as "to cleave something". But further
deriving that into nouns meaning "loincloth" and "fox" respectively is a
different thing all together.  Especially since the maxtla as verb is
unattested, (also transitive verbs require an overt argument - i.e; you
cannot just be a splitter, but you have to be a splitter of something if
there was a transitive verb maxtla it would always require an argument
affix, just like mo:tla never occurs without an argument affix). Thirdly
tepemaxtla is still obviously derived from maxtla "fox" in analogy with the
rest of the wild animals that have the tepe prefix and not from the verbal
root, so that while we might be able to argue (with two leaps of faith and a
violation of basic grammar) that maxtla "fox" originally meant "splitter" it
would still have been required to shift its meaning to fox before the tepe
prefix was added!

In sum the proposed etymology requires multiple leaps of faith, however we
choose to go about it.

best


2011/2/16 grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>

> Dear Magnus and interested parties
>
> ,
>
> Thanks so much for your input into my tepemaxtla query; I really appreciate
> it.  I don?t remember if I sent you the comments below.
>
>
>
> Karttunen writes on page 141 of her Analytical Dictionary that the sequence
> *max* (bound morpheme?) appears in Molina and Simeon having to do with
> bifurcation.  Regarding the unexplained -tla element that you cited,
> Karttunen uses the example of -tlani and its synonymous -tla as a verbal
> compounding element that conveys to bring something about(op.cit: 285. (*
> motla*, to stone someone comes to mind) Does that answer your objection to
> the unexplained element?
>
>
>
> Thanks again,
>
>
>
> Tom
>
> G.S. Rakovski St., No.79
> Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
> GSM: 359 0899 784 081
>
> --- On *Wed, 2/16/11, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>*wrote:
>
>
> From: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] tepemaxtla
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org, cuecuex at gmail.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 1:12 AM
>
>
> Listeros:
>
> Es obvio que no exist?a un solo nahuatl en el siglo 16 o antes - pero ese
> hecho no nos da libertad de inventar patrones gramaticales en estos posible
> dialectos no-documentados que no se basa en evidencia. Es posible que la
> palabra "maxtla" con el significado "zorra" que existe en el nahuatl de
> Hueyapan y Tepoztlan origino en una palabra derivado de la ra?z maxal por
> medio de un patron derivado que no ha dejado otra huella en los dialectos de
> Morelos? Si. Es probable? No. Ganamos alguna forma de conoscimento haciendo
> la especulaci?n? tampoco. Lo que sabemos es que desde el sigle 17 ha
> existido una palabra "tepemaxtla" que sa ha traducido como "un especie de
> zorro"  (asi se define en la gramatica de clavigero) - sabemos que en
> Hueyapan actualmente se usa la palabra "maxtla" con el significado zorro.
> Sabemos que muchos dialectos usan el prefijo tepe:- para derivar nombres de
> animales con la connotacion "salvaje" o "de monte". Fuera de eso ya no
> estamos practicando filolog?a sino filosof?a.
>
> Magnus
>
>
> 2011/2/15 <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org>
> >
>
> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
>        nahuatl at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org>
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org>
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
>      (roberto romero)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: roberto romero <cuecuex at gmail.com<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cuecuex at gmail.com>
> >
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:04:12 -0600
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Tepemaxtla - Maxtla -Maxtle-donde se divide el cuerpo
> Hola  foristas
>
> La pregunta  de Tom Grigsby y las respuesta de Magnus me provocaron dudas y
> reflexiones que espero me ayuden a resolver y que comparto
>
> El nombre de Maxtla el se?or tepaneca  de Coyoacan, que nos es presentado
> como   tirano y que fue derrotado y expulsado del valle  proviene de maxtle,
> el nombre de la prenda masculina ?
>
> Sera mera casualidad el hecho de que se llame maxtle a esa prenda masculina
> que cubre por delante y detras justo en la regi?n donde el bloque del cuerpo
> humano se bifurca, se divide  en dos piernas ?
>
> Sera mera casualidad el nombre de Maxtla dado al se?or tepaneca bajo cuyo
> mando se dividio el mas longevo se?orio dominante en el valle?
>
> Maxtla en la historia dividio al se?orio tepaneca.
>
> A causa de Maxtla , los nobles tlatelolcas que eran ya parte de la corte
> tepaneca se enfrentaron a Maxtla, la corte tepaneca se dividi?, el se?orio
> tepaneca se dividio los pueblos dominados por losTepanecas se
> insurrecionaron y los derrocaron,  los mas fieles aliados de los tepanecas,
> los otomis , se dividieron mortal y ferozmente entre los partidarios de
> Maxtla y los que buscaban derrocarlos y apoyaron a los pueblos insurrectos.
>
> Maxtle y Maxtla a lo mejor tuvieron cultural no etimologicamente el mismo
> signficado de bifurcar  de dividir o de indicar lo dividido lo que se
> divide.
>
>  Actualmente en el espa?ol tenemos una gran cantidad de palabras distintas
> pero con el mismo significado y ese fenomeno lingu?stico lo da la historia y
> la cultura de las regiones donde se usan
>
> Puede ser acaso las palabras  Matxla y Maxtle como indicador de divisi?n
> presencia de arcaismos del nahuatl ?
>
> O puede ser restos de un nahuatl dominante en cierto momento pero que ya no
> lo era en el siglo XVI ?
>
> Correctamente se nos dice que Maxtla no deriva etimologicamente de
> maxalihui or maxac, Eso no se discute
>
> Pero queda la duda ? en que Nahuatl ?
>
> Eso ocurre y es cierto en el  nahuatl "cl?sico"  aquel que conocemos por la
> gramatica creada los sabios frayles Molina, Olmos, Corichi y dem?s.
>
>  Pero acaso habia un s?lo nahualt en el siglo XVI? solo exist?a  el nahuatl
> del valle de M?xico ?.
>
> Realmente no era as?
>
> En esa misma ?poca del siglo XVI estan documentadas grandes variantes
> dialectales del nahuatl, por ejemple el nahuatl cazcan (region Xalisco y
> Zacatecas)  o el nahualt chichimeco (la Teutlalapan) nahautl que se se?ala
> era distinto del nahuatl al hablado en el valle de M?xico .
>
> Y en el propio valle y regiones vecinas hay obras del siglo XVI donde se
> afirma y se resaltan  las variantes entre la forma de hablar el nahuatl de
> los Tlaxcaltecas con el del resto  de pobladores del valle o el de los
> Texcocanos, o el de los Chalcas o el de los aztlanecos.
>
> Y la diferencia la dan los autores del XVI o XVII  y la marcan  s?lo  en la
> forma de hablar el nahuatl porque el nahuatl entre los indios solo se
> hablaba no se escrib?a. No se pod?a discutir sobre las ortograf?a porque
> niguna ortografia exist?a. NO habia ortograf?a tlaxcalteca o Tenochca o
> Tlaelolca , etc.
>
> La escritura del nahuatl y su gr?matica son productos de la conquista
> espa?ola, son productos espa?oles,  si se me permite. Son productos
> intelectuales  de los frayles sabios , son la asimilaci?n de otra cultura,
> la india,  a una cultura como la de los frayles gram?ticos,la europea. que
> entiende el valor de la palabra escrita en donde la historia no solo es
> relato es sobre todo palabra escrita, navega sobre hojas de papel . La
> escritura del nahuatl o su gram?tiva no es ind?gena, no la hicieron
> ind?genas en el siglo XVI o XVII,  menos aun la escritura o la gramatica es
> prehisp?nica.
>
> Roberto Romero Gutierrez
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> Graduate student
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>
> *
> US: 001 401 651 8413
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org<http://us.mc1100.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
Graduate student
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Feb 16 18:01:40 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 13:01:40 -0500
Subject: tlahtoani
In-Reply-To: <20110216145240.GB13045@pc201.uni-germanistik.gwdg.de>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.130140.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Joost, I don't know if I understand what you are referring to as a 
"phenomenon". I don't know, therefore, if I understand the question, 
and I'm not sure how this relates to "Dances with Wolves".

But, if you look at Andrews (Lesson 36, pp. 338ff., or 
Kartunnen-Campbell or even, I imagine, Sullivan, you'll find plenty of 
discussion about this use of -ni. In fact, the list has discussed this 
at some point in its history, so nahuat-l archives might be a good 
place to look.

Michael




Quoting Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>:

> Hi list,
>
> The word 'tlahtoani', although a conjugated verb form, usually has
> the function
> of a noun with the meaning 'ruler, king'. I was wondering if there is any
> literature on this phenomenon, either in Nahuatl or in other Native American
> languages (e.g., the film "Dances With Wolves" is full of them). Does anybody
> know of any articles etc. published about this? I'd be grateful for
> any and all
> hints and suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joost
>
>
>
> --
> Joost Kremers, PhD
> University of G?ttingen
> Institute for German Philology
> K?te-Hamburger-Weg 3
> 37073 G?ttingen, Germany
> Tel. +49 551 39 4467
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
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From swood at uoregon.edu  Wed Feb 16 18:08:21 2011
From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:08:21 -0800
Subject: Fwd:  tlahtoani
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.100821.0800.SWOOD@UOREGON.EDU>

Hello Joost,

If you might be interested in seeing what we have in the online Nahuatl Dictionary under "tlatoani" (also with vowel length and glottal stops marked, and other spellings), go here:  http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/index.lasso

What we offer, especially, are attestations of the term as used in colonial documents.

Best wishes,
Stephanie Wood

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>
> Date: February 16, 2011 6:52:41 AM PST
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] tlahtoani
> 
> Hi list,
> 
> The word 'tlahtoani', although a conjugated verb form, usually has the function
> of a noun with the meaning 'ruler, king'. I was wondering if there is any
> literature on this phenomenon, either in Nahuatl or in other Native American
> languages (e.g., the film "Dances With Wolves" is full of them). Does anybody
> know of any articles etc. published about this? I'd be grateful for any and all
> hints and suggestions.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Joost
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Joost Kremers, PhD
> University of G?ttingen
> Institute for German Philology
> K?te-Hamburger-Weg 3
> 37073 G?ttingen, Germany
> Tel. +49 551 39 4467
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 

Stephanie Wood, Ph.D.,
Director
Wired Humanities Projects
Knight Library
1299 University of Oregon
Eugene, Oregon 97403-1299
U.S.A.

Tel. 541-346-5771
swood at uoregon.edu
Office:
Room 142 Knight Library
Open Tues-Weds-Thurs, 10-5

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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Wed Feb 16 20:10:01 2011
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:10:01 -0500
Subject: maxtlatl etymology
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.151001.0500.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Listeros:

I think I can get a decent derivation of  a root maxa to maxtlatl, but it
requires a weird, although not impossible derivation, and it doesn't explain
how it would have come to mean fox.

*maxa  "to split, bifucate"  (hypothetical protonahuatl root)

*maxa-ta "something bifurcated" (ta is the original form of the the
absolutive suffix)
> apocope *(described by Dakin and Canger) *max-ta
> (whorf's law)  ma:xtla
> then for some reason the word is reinterpreted as a root and a new
absolutive suffix is attached so we get *maxtlatla
> then the last vowel is dropped  and we get maxtla-tl "something split" I
think this ought to be the etymology for loincloth at that at least has a
common meaning with bifurcate as it covers our own anatomical bifurcation.

maxactli "cave/female genital opening" would come from maxakata through the
same process. the ka of course being the perfective -ka-.

This model requires some kind of explanation of why "something split" comes
to mean "loincloth" and "fox". It also doesn't cause tepemaxtla to mean
mountain splitter, since the tepe could only have been prefxed after the
word maxtlatl had come to mean fox rather than "something split".

Also I am unsure about vowel length on the first ma syllable - I know
loincloth has length, but I am currently unsure of the others, do maxalihui
and maxactli have vowel length in classical? (I am away from my
dictionaries)


best

Magnus



On 16 February 2011 14:28, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> Well, his opus magnus is almost in the can. I imagine that the disks will
> be out there at Amazon in the fairly near future. I've been pushing him to
> do it sooner than later, but he IS getting to the point where he sees the
> work's publication happening pretty soon.
>
> I don't know if you know, and I know I don't know the whole extent of it,
> but he's taken the oldest dictionaries, and the Florentine Codex, etc. and
> put it all into machine-readable form and has analyzed, oh, I imagine 96% of
> the words, breaking them down into their component morphemes, explaining
> their derivations, and it comes with various ways of looking at all the
> material. It's actually unbelievable. Here's a sample of a couple of lines
> of one of the files. I'll attach it. Somewhere I have in my email an email
> from him telling me exactly what he has done. The above description is
> sketchy, it's humongous, that's one thing. All the coding is of course
> explained in the introduction.
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:
>
>  True, I've often wondered why he never published more about it than that
>> IJAL article, he must have a lot of wonderful notes lying around. I keep
>> working on the Hueyapan dialect btw. I certainly also respect him as an
>> etymologist, if he comes up with something I know it will be solid. Few
>> people have as good an overview of the Nahuatl lexicon as he.
>>
>>
>> On 16 February 2011 14:13, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  When your name comes up, Joe always says, "He's worked in the Hueyapan
>>> dialect."
>>> He respects that a lot.
>>>
>>> And, you know, that's where he started.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>  It might be viewed as an insult against those who still practice that
>>> kind
>>>
>>>> of etymology, but I have no reason to count you among those (the you in
>>>> my
>>>> previous clause was meant as a plural you inclduing Professor Campbell).
>>>> I
>>>> am glad you weren't offended, and sorry if I have been overly
>>>> argumentative
>>>> or abrasive.
>>>>
>>>> best
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 16 February 2011 14:00, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  I didn't mean to insult you with that, but both Roberto Romero and
>>>>>
>>>>>  Professor
>>>>>> Grigsby's proposals were completely without basis in data, motivated
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> chance resemblance between roots. I called them out on that and
>>>>>> encouraged
>>>>>> others to find some actual supprtive arguments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can construct a
>>>>>
>>>>>  viable etymology from having to do with splitting then that is great.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> But
>>>>>
>>>>>  seriously, making etymology through simple resemblance is not a viable
>>>>>
>>>>>> form
>>>>>> of practicing philology any more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Well, this is what one could term an insult, all the Whorfian
>>>>> blather.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I don't take it as such.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand the views on the problem. I see them.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, it's no problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know how long it'll take Joe to do the work, but he told me
>>>>> he's
>>>>> gathering data. /:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  --
>>>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>>>> Graduate student
>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>
>>>> Brown University
>>>> 128 Hope St.
>>>> Providence, RI 02906
>>>>
>>>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
>>>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>> Graduate student
>> Department of Anthropology
>>
>> Brown University
>> 128 Hope St.
>> Providence, RI 02906
>>
>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>>
>>
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
Graduate student
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413




-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
Graduate student
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 16 22:52:14 2011
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:52:14 +0000
Subject: maxtlatl etymology
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimDGbEWcz8qU4XrWAT0ExtPCkqJ2wB1N3RQwwGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2011.225214.0000.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

Could it be merely a coincidence? Lack of voiced plosives in Nahuatl makes for less choice of possible word syllables. Linguistic coincidences happen: e.g. Nahuatl teotl = Greek theos = god.

Citlalyani.

--- On Wed, 16/2/11, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:
Listeros:
I think I can get a decent derivation of? a root maxa to maxtlatl, but it requires a weird, although not impossible derivation, and it doesn't explain how it would have come to mean fox. ...



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From joostkremers at fastmail.fm  Thu Feb 17 11:50:35 2011
From: joostkremers at fastmail.fm (Joost Kremers)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:50:35 +0100
Subject: tlahtoani
In-Reply-To: <20110216130140.w8zf2kgh0k0cg8g8@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2011.125035.0100.JOOSTKREMERS@FASTMAIL.FM>

On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 01:01:40PM -0500, Michael McCafferty wrote:
> Joost, I don't know if I understand what you are referring to as a
> "phenomenon". I don't know, therefore, if I understand the question,
> and I'm not sure how this relates to "Dances with Wolves".

I'm sorry if my question was overly terse... I'll give it another try. :-) What
I'm interested in is the use of fully conjugated verbs (or ever phrases) that
are functionally equivalent to nouns. The word 'tlahtoani' as a verb means "s/he
habitually speaks", but it's often not used in this sense.

Many languages would require some formal device to turn a verb phrase into a the
equivalent of a noun, something like "he who habitually speaks" (i.e., a
relative clause), but Nahuatl apparently doesn't require this.

That's the phenomenon I'm interested in and was wondering, whether something has
been written about it.

Thanks,

Joost

-- 
Joost Kremers, PhD
University of G?ttingen
Institute for German Philology
K?te-Hamburger-Weg 3
37073 G?ttingen, Germany
Tel. +49 551 39 4467
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 17 15:30:05 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:30:05 -0500
Subject: tlahtoani
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2011.103005.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Joost:

There are some cases in Algonquian where verbs stand for nouns. The 
Miami-Illinois term for 'watermelon' is actually a participle, not a 
noun. I don't think these cases are very common, however, and I can't 
think of a term for "leader, chief, etc." that is a verb.

At the same time, Algonquian evinces innumerable nouns that at some  
point in the distant past evolved from verbs. For example, the 
Miami-Illinois term
/siipiiwi/ 'river' is structurally a verb, and was surely an inanimate 
third-person verb at some point in the distant past meaning "it is a 
river". In addition, the Miami-Illinois noun for 'turkey', /pileewa/, 
includes within it the morpheme for 'fly' and in fact the word probably 
did mean something like 'he flies' (or 'he flies!' back in the day, but 
no longer.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for anything that pops up in Algonquian that 
might interest you.

Michael




Quoting Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>:

> On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 01:01:40PM -0500, Michael McCafferty wrote:
>> Joost, I don't know if I understand what you are referring to as a
>> "phenomenon". I don't know, therefore, if I understand the question,
>> and I'm not sure how this relates to "Dances with Wolves".
>
> I'm sorry if my question was overly terse... I'll give it another
> try. :-) What
> I'm interested in is the use of fully conjugated verbs (or ever phrases) that
> are functionally equivalent to nouns. The word 'tlahtoani' as a verb
> means "s/he
> habitually speaks", but it's often not used in this sense.
>
> Many languages would require some formal device to turn a verb phrase
> into a the
> equivalent of a noun, something like "he who habitually speaks" (i.e., a
> relative clause), but Nahuatl apparently doesn't require this.
>
> That's the phenomenon I'm interested in and was wondering, whether
> something has
> been written about it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joost
>
> --
> Joost Kremers, PhD
> University of G?ttingen
> Institute for German Philology
> K?te-Hamburger-Weg 3
> 37073 G?ttingen, Germany
> Tel. +49 551 39 4467
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>




_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 15:41:22 2011
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:41:22 +0000
Subject: tlahtoani
In-Reply-To: <20110217103005.0pfbgvmm8wgk0gog@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2011.154122.0000.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

In using verbs as names, there are Semitic parallels, for example the Arabic name Yazi_d = "he causes to increase", i.e. his birth made his father's family bigger.

Citlalyani.

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

There are some cases in Algonquian where verbs stand for nouns. The Miami-Illinois term for 'watermelon' is actually a participle, not a noun. I don't think these cases are very common, however, and I can't think of a term for "leader, chief, etc." that is a verb.

At the same time, Algonquian evinces innumerable nouns that at some? point in the distant past evolved from verbs. For example, the Miami-Illinois term
/siipiiwi/ 'river' is structurally a verb, and was surely an inanimate third-person verb at some point in the distant past meaning "it is a river". In addition, the Miami-Illinois noun for 'turkey', /pileewa/, includes within it the morpheme for 'fly' and in fact the word probably did mean something like 'he flies' (or 'he flies!' back in the day, but no longer.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for anything that pops up in Algonquian that might interest you.

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From lovegren at buffalo.edu  Thu Feb 17 16:14:49 2011
From: lovegren at buffalo.edu (Jesse Lovegren)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:14:49 -0500
Subject: tlahtoani
In-Reply-To: <909199.17604.qm@web86704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2011.111449.0500.LOVEGREN@BUFFALO.EDU>

On the theoretical side, a good place to start (either by reading the
article itself or seeing the references therein) may be an article by
Stiebels in NLLT, "Noun-verb symmetries in Nahuatl nominalizations."
Natural Language & Linguistic
Theory<http://www.springerlink.com/content/0167-806x/>
Volume 17, Number 4 <http://www.springerlink.com/content/0167-806x/17/4/>,
783-834,

You can probably find a very large number of relevant works by searching for
"nominalization" or "deverbal nouns" and specifying for the languages or
language families you are interested in.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:41 AM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD <
a.appleyard at btinternet.com> wrote:

> In using verbs as names, there are Semitic parallels, for example the
> Arabic name Yazi_d = "he causes to increase", i.e. his birth made his
> father's family bigger.
>
> Citlalyani.
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 17/2/11, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>* wrote:
>
>
> There are some cases in Algonquian where verbs stand for nouns. The
> Miami-Illinois term for 'watermelon' is actually a participle, not a noun. I
> don't think these cases are very common, however, and I can't think of a
> term for "leader, chief, etc." that is a verb.
>
> At the same time, Algonquian evinces innumerable nouns that at some  point
> in the distant past evolved from verbs. For example, the Miami-Illinois term
> /siipiiwi/ 'river' is structurally a verb, and was surely an inanimate
> third-person verb at some point in the distant past meaning "it is a river".
> In addition, the Miami-Illinois noun for 'turkey', /pileewa/, includes
> within it the morpheme for 'fly' and in fact the word probably did mean
> something like 'he flies' (or 'he flies!' back in the day, but no longer.
>
> I'll keep my eyes peeled for anything that pops up in Algonquian that might
> interest you.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
Jesse Lovegren
Department of Linguistics
645 Baldy Hall
office +1 716 645 0136
cell +1 512 584 5468
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From gwhitta at gwdg.de  Fri Feb 18 08:05:03 2011
From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:05:03 +0100
Subject: Maxtlatl 'fox' as loan
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1297965602.21827.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2011.090503.0100.GWHITTA@GWDG.DE>

Hi,

I think if a search of Mesoamerican languages is made one will find
similar forms with the meaning 'fox', suggesting that the term in dialect
Nahuatl is a borrowing from an unrelated language. I don't have my files
at hand but do recall that there is a similar Mixe-Zoque term, something
like wa'as, that could be related to the immediate source of the Nahuatl
word. Attempts at etymologizing the term in connection with a verb 'split'
seem to me very unlikely to yield anything of substance. Nevertheless, the
term may have converged phonetically on maxtla- 'loincloth' (given the
fact that w and m are phonetically related).

Good hunting!

Best,
Gordon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gordon Whittaker
Professor
Linguistische Anthropologie und Altamerikanistik
Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie
Universitaet Goettingen
Humboldtallee 19
37073 Goettingen
Germany
tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333
tel. (office): ++49-551-394188
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Sun Feb 20 19:38:05 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 14:38:05 -0500
Subject: 2011 Yale Summer Nahuatl Institute
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2011.143805.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

From: "John Sullivan" <idiez at me.com>
Date:  Fri, February 18, 2011

Listeros,
        The 2011 Yale Summer Nahuatl Institute will be held this year in
partnership with the Center for Latin American Studies at
Vanderbilt University. Instruction will take place on the
Vanderbilt campus in Nashville, Tennessee from June 20 to July 29.
Details regarding registration, tuition, room and board will be
updated and made available to prospective students next week via
email and on the Yale Council on Latin American and Iberian
Studies website, www.yale.edu/macmillan/lais/. Please
contact Jean Silk, jean.silk at yale.edu, for further information.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Professor of Nahua language and culture
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology
Calle El?as Amador 302
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
Mexico
Work: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.)
Home: +52 (492) 768-6048
Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195
idiez at me.com
www.macehualli.org


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From smielke at famsi.org  Wed Feb 23 17:01:25 2011
From: smielke at famsi.org (Sandy Mielke)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:01:25 -0500
Subject: FW:  2011 Yale Summer Nahuatl Institute
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2011.120125.0500.SMIELKE@FAMSI.ORG>

From: "John Sullivan" <idiez at me.com>
Date:  Fri, February 18, 2011

Listeros,
        The 2011 Yale Summer Nahuatl Institute will be held this year in
partnership with the Center for Latin American Studies at
Vanderbilt University. Instruction will take place on the
Vanderbilt campus in Nashville, Tennessee from June 20 to July 29.
Details regarding registration, tuition, room and board will be
updated and made available to prospective students next week via
email and on the Yale Council on Latin American and Iberian
Studies website, www.yale.edu/macmillan/lais/. Please
contact Jean Silk, jean.silk at yale.edu, for further information.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Professor of Nahua language and culture
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology
Calle El?as Amador 302
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
Mexico
Work: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +1 (858) 724-3030 (U.S.A.)
Home: +52 (492) 768-6048
Mobile: +52 1 (492) 103-0195
idiez at me.com
www.macehualli.org


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 24 21:54:34 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:54:34 -0500
Subject: maxtlatl etymology
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimDGbEWcz8qU4XrWAT0ExtPCkqJ2wB1N3RQwwGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2011.165434.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Sorry that I have taken such a long time to get back to this.

It's good to remember, I think, that language is an expression of a 
biological, organic entity, and necessarily exhibits the traits of a 
biological organism. In other words, it doesn?t work like a machine, 
not in the way and to the extent that grammarians and morphologists 
would like for it to.

And it doesn?t evolve like a machine, regardless of the many 
regularities that we can observe within it. It?s not metal or plastic; 
it?s more like a plant than a food processor.

I think this relates to something Joe Campbell told me, something 
Frances Karttunen had told him and John Sullivan once?-that our 
theories about morphology and grammar are always going to be like cloth 
that is a little frayed around the edges, not cloth that has a finely 
stitched edge perfectly aligned.

A little fraying of the edges is precisely, I think, what is going on 
in the case of tepe:ma:xtlatl, and nothing more.

Richard Andrews? analysis of ma:xtlatl, which appears on page 282 of 
the second edition of his grammar, is notable:

?(ma:xa)-tl, ?crotch, bifurcation? + (tla)-tl, ?strip of cloth, 
leather? = (ma:x-tla)-tl ?breechcloth? [The loss of the embed?s tem?s 
ephemeral /a/ is irregular. Compare (ma:xa-c)-tli-
]?

Although there are times when you can scratch your head reading 
Andrews? grammar, I do trust the depth of his morphology sensibilities.

His analysis thus indicates that  tepe:ma:xtlatl  ?fox? is literally 
?mountain-breechcloth?. (Tom has told me off-list that fox skins were 
used for breechcloths. Not really that bad a name for the fox 
considering that in Northern Iroquoian the animal is called ?bad-skin?.)

(But there still is a tiny part of me (the machine-oriented part, I 
fear) that keeps drawing me back to the irregular and virtually 
inalienably possessed form of ma:xatl, which is -ma:xtli, as in 
noma:xtli, moma:xtli, amomax:tli, etc., and the popularized modern term 
?maxtli?.

That tiny part keeps saying that the possessed form's final -tli (which 
Joe has pointed out to me has the same final -i as in the possessed 
form -co:zqui of co:zcatl) could have been reanalyzed by native 
speakers as the absolutive suffix -tli, and thus was dropped to give us 
the ma:x- form of the root that we see  ma:x-tlatl.  But I?m willing to 
drop that idea. :-)

Michael


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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Feb 25 02:04:26 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:04:26 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Aztlan] 800 year old Aztec wooden lintels restored]
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2011.210426.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: [Aztlan] 800 year old Aztec wooden lintels restored
From:    "michael ruggeri" <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Date:    Thu, February 24, 2011 8:29 pm
To:      aztlan at lists.famsi.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listeros,

Three wooden lintels between 500-800 years old that were part of buildings
at Tlatelolco have been restored in a process of restoration that took
place over 15 years. They will be put on display by INAH in a March
exhibit, ?Six Ancient Cities of Mesoamerica: Society and Environment.? 400
Mesoamerican pieces from Monte Alban, Palenque, El Tajin, Teotihuacan,
Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco will be on display. The lintels were found in
at the water table covered with mud. They date from 1200-1520 CE. Very
sophisticated methods had to be used to save the wood after it had been
underwater for 600 years. The report details those methods.

Art Daily has the story here with a good photo;
http://www.artdaily.com/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=45227

Mike Ruggeri

Mike Ruggeri's Aztec and Toltec World
http://tinyurl.com/yqypej






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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Sun Feb 27 21:36:22 2011
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (ANTHONY APPLEYARD)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:36:22 +0000
Subject: revivalism?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=G7M=Me4wA2rnNBqVFMLcj0SZP-5T-mc4EfMAK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2011.213622.0000.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

In Mexico has there been any attempt at a revivalist movement for the old Aztec religion or of parts of it?

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From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 28 06:58:01 2011
From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 22:58:01 -0800
Subject: maxtlatl etymology
In-Reply-To: <20110224165434.f6my3v2ds8kwo8sg@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2011.225801.0800.TOMGRIGSBY@YAHOO.COM>

My thanks again to Michael McCafferty, Magnus Hansen et. al. for their help in my pursuit of the tepemaxtla and its murky etymology. 
?
I?d like to clarify a couple of points.? First, the tepemaxtla is quite definitely a cacomistle (Bassariscus sp.) in Tepoztl?n as attested to by the drawings of the animal on the comparsa banners of the Santa Cruz barrio (who call themselves tepemaxtlame) as well as my conversations and observations with the local villagers over the past four decades.? According to the Nomenclatura Zool?gica de las Am?ricas, the animal goes by a lot of names.? Here?s the entry:
?
Bassariscus astutus = Bassaris astuta = babisuri, basarisco, basaride mexicano, bas?ride, cacomiscle, cacomistel, cacomixtle, cacomizcle, cacomiztli, cacomiztle, cuapiote, gato ardilla, gato de cola anillada, mico de noche, tepamaxtlaton, tepechichi, tepemaxtla, uayuc. (In English it is called the civet cat, miner?s cat, ring-tailed cat, and it is the state animal of Arizona).
?
The same volume unfortunately has no mention of the tepemaxtla under the Vulpini tribe ? the foxes. That entry - ?as a species of fox? - originally appears in Francisco Hernandez?s Plantas y animales de la Nueva Espa?a (1615), and was used later by Clavijero in his Reglas (1780), and by Remi Simeon (1885) who used Hernandez as his source.? ?
?
The animal is easily confused with the fox.? The genus was first described by biologist Elliott Coues in 1887 who proposed the word "bassarisk" as the English term for animals in this genus.? The etymology of Bassariscus comes from the Greek bass?r (a) fox + Neo-Latin -iscus diminutive suffix < Greek ?iskos.? 
?
Please let me clear up a second point mentioned by Michael and attributed to me in his last posting; the Hoopa, Yurok and perhaps other northwest California/southern Oregon peoples use the cacomistle/ring-tailed cat/tepemaxtla pelt with its distinctive raccoon-like tail to make an ritual apron ? not a breechclout ? and it is used in their White Deer Dance/World Renewal Ceremony.
?
?Again, thanks to all of the participating listeros,
?
Tom

G.S. Rakovski St., No.79 
Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
GSM: 359 0899 784 081

--- On Thu, 2/24/11, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:


From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] maxtlatl etymology
To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 11:54 PM


Sorry that I have taken such a long time to get back to this.

It's good to remember, I think, that language is an expression of a biological, organic entity, and necessarily exhibits the traits of a biological organism. In other words, it doesn?t work like a machine, not in the way and to the extent that grammarians and morphologists would like for it to.

And it doesn?t evolve like a machine, regardless of the many regularities that we can observe within it. It?s not metal or plastic; it?s more like a plant than a food processor.

I think this relates to something Joe Campbell told me, something Frances Karttunen had told him and John Sullivan once?-that our theories about morphology and grammar are always going to be like cloth that is a little frayed around the edges, not cloth that has a finely stitched edge perfectly aligned.

A little fraying of the edges is precisely, I think, what is going on in the case of tepe:ma:xtlatl, and nothing more.

Richard Andrews? analysis of ma:xtlatl, which appears on page 282 of the second edition of his grammar, is notable:

?(ma:xa)-tl, ?crotch, bifurcation? + (tla)-tl, ?strip of cloth, leather? = (ma:x-tla)-tl ?breechcloth? [The loss of the embed?s tem?s ephemeral /a/ is irregular. Compare (ma:xa-c)-tli-?]?

Although there are times when you can scratch your head reading Andrews? grammar, I do trust the depth of his morphology sensibilities.

His analysis thus indicates that? tepe:ma:xtlatl? ?fox? is literally ?mountain-breechcloth?. (Tom has told me off-list that fox skins were used for breechcloths. Not really that bad a name for the fox considering that in Northern Iroquoian the animal is called ?bad-skin?.)

(But there still is a tiny part of me (the machine-oriented part, I fear) that keeps drawing me back to the irregular and virtually inalienably possessed form of ma:xatl, which is -ma:xtli, as in noma:xtli, moma:xtli, amomax:tli, etc., and the popularized modern term ?maxtli?.

That tiny part keeps saying that the possessed form's final -tli (which Joe has pointed out to me has the same final -i as in the possessed form -co:zqui of co:zcatl) could have been reanalyzed by native speakers as the absolutive suffix -tli, and thus was dropped to give us the ma:x- form of the root that we see? ma:x-tlatl.? But I?m willing to drop that idea. :-)

Michael


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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 28 15:25:38 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:25:38 -0500
Subject: maxtlatl etymology
In-Reply-To: <58498.6514.qm@web110007.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2011.102538.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Tom:

It certainly is an interesting linguistic ride.

And thanks for keeping me honest about traipsing off into biological 
and ethnological fantasy.
:-)

Michael




Quoting grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>:

> My thanks again to Michael McCafferty, Magnus Hansen et. al. for
> their help in my pursuit of the tepemaxtla and its murky etymology.
> ?
> I?d like to clarify a couple of points.? First, the tepemaxtla is
> quite definitely a cacomistle (Bassariscus sp.) in Tepoztl?n as
> attested to by the drawings of the animal on the comparsa banners of
> the Santa Cruz barrio (who call themselves tepemaxtlame) as well as
> my conversations and observations with the local villagers over the
> past four decades.? According to the Nomenclatura Zool?gica de las
> Am?ricas, the animal goes by a lot of names.? Here?s the entry:
> ?
> Bassariscus astutus = Bassaris astuta = babisuri, basarisco, basaride
> mexicano, bas?ride, cacomiscle, cacomistel, cacomixtle, cacomizcle,
> cacomiztli, cacomiztle, cuapiote, gato ardilla, gato de cola
> anillada, mico de noche, tepamaxtlaton, tepechichi, tepemaxtla,
> uayuc. (In English it is called the civet cat, miner?s cat,
> ring-tailed cat, and it is the state animal of Arizona).
> ?
> The same volume unfortunately has no mention of the tepemaxtla under
> the Vulpini tribe ? the foxes. That entry - ?as a species of fox? -
> originally appears in Francisco Hernandez?s Plantas y animales de la
> Nueva Espa?a (1615), and was used later by Clavijero in his Reglas
> (1780), and by Remi Simeon (1885) who used Hernandez as his source.? ?
> ?
> The animal is easily confused with the fox.? The genus was first
> described by biologist Elliott Coues in 1887 who proposed the word
> "bassarisk" as the English term for animals in this genus.? The
> etymology of Bassariscus comes from the Greek bass?r (a) fox +
> Neo-Latin -iscus diminutive suffix < Greek ?iskos.?
> ?
> Please let me clear up a second point mentioned by Michael and
> attributed to me in his last posting; the Hoopa, Yurok and perhaps
> other northwest California/southern Oregon peoples use the
> cacomistle/ring-tailed cat/tepemaxtla pelt with its distinctive
> raccoon-like tail to make an ritual apron ? not a breechclout ? and
> it is used in their White Deer Dance/World Renewal Ceremony.
> ?
> ?Again, thanks to all of the participating listeros,
> ?
> Tom
>
> G.S. Rakovski St., No.79
> Boboshevo, 2660 Bulgaria
> GSM: 359 0899 784 081
>
> --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] maxtlatl etymology
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 11:54 PM
>
>
> Sorry that I have taken such a long time to get back to this.
>
> It's good to remember, I think, that language is an expression of a
> biological, organic entity, and necessarily exhibits the traits of a
> biological organism. In other words, it doesn?t work like a machine,
> not in the way and to the extent that grammarians and morphologists
> would like for it to.
>
> And it doesn?t evolve like a machine, regardless of the many
> regularities that we can observe within it. It?s not metal or
> plastic; it?s more like a plant than a food processor.
>
> I think this relates to something Joe Campbell told me, something
> Frances Karttunen had told him and John Sullivan once?-that our
> theories about morphology and grammar are always going to be like
> cloth that is a little frayed around the edges, not cloth that has a
> finely stitched edge perfectly aligned.
>
> A little fraying of the edges is precisely, I think, what is going on
> in the case of tepe:ma:xtlatl, and nothing more.
>
> Richard Andrews? analysis of ma:xtlatl, which appears on page 282 of
> the second edition of his grammar, is notable:
>
> ?(ma:xa)-tl, ?crotch, bifurcation? + (tla)-tl, ?strip of cloth,
> leather? = (ma:x-tla)-tl ?breechcloth? [The loss of the embed?s tem?s
> ephemeral /a/ is irregular. Compare (ma:xa-c)-tli-?]?
>
> Although there are times when you can scratch your head reading
> Andrews? grammar, I do trust the depth of his morphology
> sensibilities.
>
> His analysis thus indicates that? tepe:ma:xtlatl? ?fox? is literally
> ?mountain-breechcloth?. (Tom has told me off-list that fox skins were
> used for breechcloths. Not really that bad a name for the fox
> considering that in Northern Iroquoian the animal is called
> ?bad-skin?.)
>
> (But there still is a tiny part of me (the machine-oriented part, I
> fear) that keeps drawing me back to the irregular and virtually
> inalienably possessed form of ma:xatl, which is -ma:xtli, as in
> noma:xtli, moma:xtli, amomax:tli, etc., and the popularized modern
> term ?maxtli?.
>
> That tiny part keeps saying that the possessed form's final -tli
> (which Joe has pointed out to me has the same final -i as in the
> possessed form -co:zqui of co:zcatl) could have been reanalyzed by
> native speakers as the absolutive suffix -tli, and thus was dropped
> to give us the ma:x- form of the root that we see? ma:x-tlatl.? But
> I?m willing to drop that idea. :-)
>
> Michael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
>



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http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From micc2 at cox.net  Mon Feb 28 18:46:43 2011
From: micc2 at cox.net (mario E. Aguilar)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:46:43 -0800
Subject: revivalism?
In-Reply-To: <510895.53988.qm@web86706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2011.104643.0800.MICC2@COX.NET>

Definately,

There are "Mexicanistas" who have taken the Conchero dance tradition, 
stripped it of its "European and Christian perversions" and recreated 
what they believe is the way it was in Tenochtitlan on Oct. 11, 1492.

Needless to say, everything they base their revivalist movement on, is 
based on the post conquest chronicles of the Spanish Conquistatodres 
(politically cleansed of course of human sacrifice, etc....), church 
writings (Sahagun, Molina, et al) and supposed ancient oral tradition 
that has been "handed down scretly for 500 years buy our abuelos" ....

which just happened to "reappear" after the alleged discovery of 
Ccuauatemoc's grave in Ixcateopan.

Today those of us who are traditional Danzantes (poejoratively called 
"concheritos") still follow the synchretic traditional of the 
Indo-Christian Mexican historical evolution.  But in Mexico, as well as 
in the U.S. there is a strong  fundametalist movement amongst young 
people to replace Evangelical Chirstianity with Evengelical "Mexika" 
religion.

La "divina muerte" is an example where the Catholic tradition (a virgin 
of sorts) is replaced and amplified with "coatlicue", Miccihuatl" and 
Mictlantekwtli.


/--
I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality:

"Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz


Mario E. Aguilar, PhD
www.mexicayotl.net/


On 2/27/2011 1:36 PM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote:
> In Mexico has there been any attempt at a revivalist movement for the 
> old Aztec religion or of parts of it?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Mon Feb 28 18:53:55 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:53:55 -0500
Subject: revivalism?
In-Reply-To: <4D6BED93.6040909@cox.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2011.135355.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>


There is a relatively new book on the Concheros of Mexico City

/Carrying the Word: The Concheros Dance in Mexico City/

By Susanna Rostas.Boulder, CO: University of Colorado Press, 2009.Pp. 368, 41 
photos, Notes, Glossary, Bibliography, Index.


-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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