From susana at losrancheros.org  Thu Jan 13 09:40:54 2011
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:40:54 +0100
Subject: Himno a Tlaloc
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.104054.0100.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Would anyone know where can I find the Nahuatl text of the "Himno a Tlaloc"? 
The one quoted by Sahagun.

Thank you.

Susana




_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From stefanyteufel at yahoo.de  Thu Jan 13 10:44:04 2011
From: stefanyteufel at yahoo.de (Stefanie Teufel)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:44:04 +0000
Subject: WG:  Himno a Tlaloc
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.104404.0000.STEFANYTEUFEL@YAHOO.DE>

Dear Susana,

you will find the song of Tlaloc in Nahuatl:

-in Sahgún´s Codex Florentinius, Book II "The Ceremonies". For example Anderson 
and Dibble 1981:224.

- in Sahgún´s Historia General, Book II. For example the edition of 
Porrúa/Garibay 1989:174

-in Sahagún´s Primeros Memoriales, folio 274. See for example Sullivan.

Best
Stefanie


----- Weitergeleitete Mail ----
Von: Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>
An: Nahuat-l <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 13. Januar 2011, 10:40:54 Uhr
Betreff: [Nahuat-l] Himno a Tlaloc


Would anyone know where can I find the Nahuatl text of the "Himno a Tlaloc"? The 
one quoted by Sahagun.

Thank you.

Susana




_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


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From susana at losrancheros.org  Thu Jan 13 14:28:56 2011
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:28:56 +0100
Subject: WG:  Himno a Tlaloc
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.152856.0100.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Thank you Stefanie. I do have Sahagun's Historia General (Consejo Nacional para la Cultura y las Artes) but it is the Spanish version of the Codice Florentino (Lopez Austin and Garcia Quintana).  There are no Nahuatl quotes.

I searched the books you suggested in "Google books" but couldn't find anything.
Would you kindly have any other suggestion?

Susana
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stefanie Teufel 
  To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org 
  Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 11:44 AM
  Subject: [Nahuat-l] WG: Himno a Tlaloc


  Dear Susana,

  you will find the song of Tlaloc in Nahuatl:

  -in Sahgún´s Codex Florentinius, Book II "The Ceremonies". For example Anderson and Dibble 1981:224.

  - in Sahgún´s Historia General, Book II. For example the edition of Porrúa/Garibay 1989:174

  -in Sahagún´s Primeros Memoriales, folio 274. See for example Sullivan.

  Best
  Stefanie


  ----- Weitergeleitete Mail ----
  Von: Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>
  An: Nahuat-l <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
  Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 13. Januar 2011, 10:40:54 Uhr
  Betreff: [Nahuat-l] Himno a Tlaloc


  Would anyone know where can I find the Nahuatl text of the "Himno a Tlaloc"? The one quoted by Sahagun.

  Thank you.

  Susana




  _______________________________________________
  Nahuatl mailing list
  Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
  http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl





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From jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu  Thu Jan 13 16:30:03 2011
From: jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu (Jeanne Gillespie)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:30:03 -0600
Subject: WG: Himno a Tlaloc
In-Reply-To: <D7421A21699D4CDC81AE54CF42E6D981@susana>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.103003.0600.JEANNE.GILLESPIE@USM.EDU>

You can get Brinton's Nahuatl transcription from the Project Gutenberg's
copy of Reg Veda Americana (1890).  Here is a link:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14993/14993-h/14993-h.htm#iii
and the copy with Brinton's translation and notes:
III. Tlalloc icuic.

   1. Ahuia Mexico teutlaneuiloc amapanitla anauhcampa, ye moquetzquetl,
   aoyequene y chocaya.
   2. Ahuia anneuaya niyocoloc, annoteua eztlamiyaual, aylhuiçolla nic
   yauicaya teutiualcoya.
   3. Ahuia annotequiua naualpilli aquitlanella motonacayouh tic yachiuh
   quitla catlachtoquetl, çan mitziyapinauia.
   4. Ahuia cana catella nechyapinauia anechyaca uelmatia, anotata yn
   oquacuillo ocelocoatl aya.
   5. Ahuia tlallocana, xiuacalco aya quizqui aquamotla, acatonalaya.
   6. Ahuia xiyanouia, nahuia xiyamotecaya ay poyauhtla, ayauh chicauaztica,
   ayauicalo tlallocanaya.
   7. Aua nacha tozcuecuexi niyayalizqui aya y chocaya.
   8. Ahuia queyamica xinechiuaya, temoquetl aitlatol, aniquiya ilhuiquetl,
   tetzauhpilla niyayalizqui aya y chocaya.
   9. Ahuia nauhxiuhticaya itopanecauiloc ayoc ynomatia, ay motlapoalli, aya
   ximocaya ye quetzalcalla nepanauia ay yaxcana teizcaltequetl.
   10. Ahuia xiyanouia, ahuia xiyamotequaya ay poyauhtla, ayauh
   chicauaztlica ayauicallo tlalloca.

*Var.* 1. Amopanitl.
Gloss.

   1. Auia Mexico teutlanauiloc, *q.n.*, yn Mexico onetlanauiloc in tlaloc.
   Amapanitl annauhcampa ye moquetzquetl, *q.n.*, amapanitl nauhcampa
   omoquequetz. Aoyeque naichocaya, *id est*, itlaocuyaya.
   2. Auia anneuaya niyocoloc, *q.n.*, ynehuatl ni tlalloc oniyocoloc.
   Annoteua eztlamiyaual, *q.n.*, noteu eztlamiyaualtitiuh. Aylhuiçolla, *
   q.n.*, yn umpa ilhuiçololo. Inic yauicaya teuitualcoya, *q.n.* in
   teuitualoc.
   3. Auia annotequiua naualpilli, *q.n.* in tinoteuh naualpilli, *i.e.*,
   tlalloc. Aquitlanella motonacayouh, *q.n.*, ca nelli teuatl ticmochiuilia
   in motonacayouh. Catlachtoquetl, *q.n.*, teuatl ticmochiuilia auh in
   aquin timitzpinauia.
   4. Ahuia cana catella nechyapinauia, *q.n.*, catel nechpinauia ca
   monechuelmati. Annotata ynoquacuillo ocelocoatl aya, *q.n.*, yn notaua
   ioan yna quacuiloa yn oceloquacuili.
   5. Ahuia tlallocana xiuacalco, *q.n.*, in tlalocan xiuhcalco, *id est*,
   acxoyacalco. Ayaquizqui, *q.n.*, umpa ualquizque. Aquamotla acatonalaya,
   *q.n.*, y notauan yn oquacuiloan acatonal.
   6. Ahuia xicanouia nauia xiyamotecaya, *q.n.*, xiuian ximotecati. Ay
   poyauhtlan, *q.n.*, in umpa poyauhtlan tepeticpac. Ayauh chicauaztica
   ayauicalo tlalocana, *q.n.*, ayauh chicauaztica in auicalo tlalocan.
   7. Aua nach tozcuecuexi niyayalizqui, *q.n.*, y nach tozcuecuex y ye
   niauh niman ye choca.
   8. Ahuia queyamica xinechiuaya, *q.n.*, quenamican y ya niauh aço
   anechtemozque. Aniquiya ilhuiquetl tetzapilla niyayalizqui ayaichocaya, *
   q.n.*, onquilhui yn tetzapilli ye niyauh niman ye choca.
   9. Ahuia nauhxiuhticaya nitopanecauiloc, *q.n.*, nauhxiuhtica in
   topanecauiloz, *id est*, in tepan mochiuaz. Ayoc inomatia ay motlapoalli,
   *q.n.*, aocmo nomatia iniquin motlapoalpan. Ca oximoac ye quetzalcalla
   nepanauia, *q.n.*, ye qualcan ye netlamachtiloyan ynemca. Ay yaxcana
   teizcaltiquetl, *q.n.*, iniaxca inic oteizcalli.
   10. Ahuia xiyanouia, *q.n.*, xiuia. Auia xiya motecaya ay poyauhtla, *
   q.n.*, ximotecati in umpa poyauhtla. Ayauh chicauaztica auicallo
   tlalocan, *q.n.*, ayauh chicauaztica in auicallo in umpa tlallocan.

The Hymn of Tlaloc.

   1. In Mexico the god appears; thy banner is unfolded in all directions,
   and no one weeps.
   2. I, the god, have returned again, I have turned again to the place of
   abundance of blood-sacrifices; there when the day grows old, I am beheld
   as a god.
   3. Thy work is that of a noble magician; truly thou hast made thyself to
   be of our flesh; thou hast made thyself, and who dare affront thee?
   4. Truly he who affronts me does not find himself well with me; my
   fathers took by the head the tigers and the serpents.
   5. In Tlalocan, in the verdant house, they play at ball, they cast the
   reeds.
   6. Go forth, go forth to where the clouds are spread abundantly, where
   the thick mist makes the cloudy house of Tlaloc.
   7. There with strong voice I rise up and cry aloud.
   8. Go ye forth to seek me, seek for the words which I have said, as I
   rise, a terrible one, and cry aloud.
   9. After four years they shall go forth, not to be known, not to be
   numbered, they shall descend to the beautiful house, to unite together and
   know the doctrine.
   10. Go forth, go forth to where the clouds are spread abundantly, where
   the thick mist makes the cloudy house of Tlaloc.

 Notes.

The god Tlaloc shared with Huitzilopochtli the highest place in the Mexican
Pantheon. He was the deity who presided over the waters, the rains, the
thunder and the lightning. The annual festival in his honor took place about
the time of corn-planting, and was intended to secure his favor for this
all-important crop. Its details are described at great length by Diego Duran,
*Historia de Nueva España*, cap. 86, and Sahagun, *Historia*, Lib. II., cap.
25, and elsewhere. His name is derived from *tlalli*, earth. *Tlalocan*,
referred to in v. 5, “the place of Tlaloc,” was the name of a mountain east
of Tenochtitlan, where the festival of the god was celebrated; but it had
also a mythical meaning, equivalent to “the earthly Paradise,” the abode of
happy souls.

It will be observed that v. 10 is a repetition of v. 6. The word
*ayauicalo*refers to the
*ayauhcalli*, “house of mist,” the home of the rain god, which Sahagun
informs us was represented at the annual festival by four small buildings
near the water’s edge, carefully disposed to face the four cardinal points
of the compass (Sahagun, *ubi supra*).

In v. 8 the expression *tetzauhpilli* (*tetzauhqui*, to frighten) may be
explained by the figure of Tlaloc, whose statue, says Duran, was that of *un
espantable monstruo, la cara muy fea* (*ibid.*).

The compound in v. 10, *nauhxiuhtica*, “after four years,” appears to refer
to the souls of the departed brave ones, who, according to Aztec mythology,
passed to the heaven for four years and after that returned to the
terrestrial Paradise,—the palace of Tlaloc. (See my paper, *The Journey of
the Soul*, in *Proceedings of the Numismatic and Antiquarian Society of
Philadelphia, 1883*.)


On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 8:28 AM, Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>wrote:

>  Thank you Stefanie. I do have Sahagun's Historia General (Consejo
> Nacional para la Cultura y las Artes) but it is the Spanish version of the
> Codice Florentino (Lopez Austin and Garcia Quintana).  There are no Nahuatl
> quotes.
>
> I searched the books you suggested in "Google books" but couldn't find
> anything.
> Would you kindly have any other suggestion?
>
> Susana
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Stefanie Teufel <stefanyteufel at yahoo.de>
> *To:* nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 13, 2011 11:44 AM
> *Subject:* [Nahuat-l] WG: Himno a Tlaloc
>
>  Dear Susana,
>
> you will find the song of Tlaloc in Nahuatl:
>
> -in Sahgún´s Codex Florentinius, Book II "The Ceremonies". For example
> Anderson and Dibble 1981:224.
>
> - in Sahgún´s Historia General, Book II. For example the edition of
> Porrúa/Garibay 1989:174
>
> -in Sahagún´s Primeros Memoriales, folio 274. See for example Sullivan.
>
> Best
> Stefanie
>
> ----- Weitergeleitete Mail ----
> *Von:* Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>
> *An:* Nahuat-l <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, den 13. Januar 2011, 10:40:54 Uhr
> *Betreff:* [Nahuat-l] Himno a Tlaloc
>
>
> Would anyone know where can I find the Nahuatl text of the "Himno a
> Tlaloc"? The one quoted by Sahagun.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Susana
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>  <http://www.bandoo.com/wp/oe.php?plg=OE&ad2=146&&elm=sign>
>
>


-- 
Jeanne L. Gillespie, Ph.D.
Associate Dean and Director of Interdisciplinary Studies
College of Arts and Letters
The University of Southern Mississippi

601-266-4315
jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Jan 13 18:17:11 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:17:11 -0500
Subject: WG: Himno a Tlaloc
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=f8AGCGvrKr=3tdYewbXvDkc5nxfU+S9zSq84K@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.131711.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Thank you, and to others thank you, for these missives.

Tlaloc is an interesting name. tlal-oc

In the Algonquian language known as Miami-Illinois there are two words 
for 'snow', /manetwa/ and /waapikoona/. The first, deriving from 
/manetoowa/ 'spirit, God', refers to falling snow; the second, deriving 
from Proto-Algonquian */wa:p/ 'white' and /ko:na/ 'snow' is what's on 
the ground, lying on the Earth.

Michael


Quoting Jeanne Gillespie <jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu>:

> You can get Brinton's Nahuatl transcription from the Project Gutenberg's
> copy of Reg Veda Americana (1890).  Here is a link:
> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14993/14993-h/14993-h.htm#iii
> and the copy with Brinton's translation and notes:
> III. Tlalloc icuic.
>
>   1. Ahuia Mexico teutlaneuiloc amapanitla anauhcampa, ye moquetzquetl,
>   aoyequene y chocaya.
>   2. Ahuia anneuaya niyocoloc, annoteua eztlamiyaual, aylhuiçolla nic
>   yauicaya teutiualcoya.
>   3. Ahuia annotequiua naualpilli aquitlanella motonacayouh tic yachiuh
>   quitla catlachtoquetl, çan mitziyapinauia.
>   4. Ahuia cana catella nechyapinauia anechyaca uelmatia, anotata yn
>   oquacuillo ocelocoatl aya.
>   5. Ahuia tlallocana, xiuacalco aya quizqui aquamotla, acatonalaya.
>   6. Ahuia xiyanouia, nahuia xiyamotecaya ay poyauhtla, ayauh chicauaztica,
>   ayauicalo tlallocanaya.
>   7. Aua nacha tozcuecuexi niyayalizqui aya y chocaya.
>   8. Ahuia queyamica xinechiuaya, temoquetl aitlatol, aniquiya ilhuiquetl,
>   tetzauhpilla niyayalizqui aya y chocaya.
>   9. Ahuia nauhxiuhticaya itopanecauiloc ayoc ynomatia, ay motlapoalli, aya
>   ximocaya ye quetzalcalla nepanauia ay yaxcana teizcaltequetl.
>   10. Ahuia xiyanouia, ahuia xiyamotequaya ay poyauhtla, ayauh
>   chicauaztlica ayauicallo tlalloca.
>
> *Var.* 1. Amopanitl.
> Gloss.
>
>   1. Auia Mexico teutlanauiloc, *q.n.*, yn Mexico onetlanauiloc in tlaloc.
>   Amapanitl annauhcampa ye moquetzquetl, *q.n.*, amapanitl nauhcampa
>   omoquequetz. Aoyeque naichocaya, *id est*, itlaocuyaya.
>   2. Auia anneuaya niyocoloc, *q.n.*, ynehuatl ni tlalloc oniyocoloc.
>   Annoteua eztlamiyaual, *q.n.*, noteu eztlamiyaualtitiuh. Aylhuiçolla, *
>   q.n.*, yn umpa ilhuiçololo. Inic yauicaya teuitualcoya, *q.n.* in
>   teuitualoc.
>   3. Auia annotequiua naualpilli, *q.n.* in tinoteuh naualpilli, *i.e.*,
>   tlalloc. Aquitlanella motonacayouh, *q.n.*, ca nelli teuatl ticmochiuilia
>   in motonacayouh. Catlachtoquetl, *q.n.*, teuatl ticmochiuilia auh in
>   aquin timitzpinauia.
>   4. Ahuia cana catella nechyapinauia, *q.n.*, catel nechpinauia ca
>   monechuelmati. Annotata ynoquacuillo ocelocoatl aya, *q.n.*, yn notaua
>   ioan yna quacuiloa yn oceloquacuili.
>   5. Ahuia tlallocana xiuacalco, *q.n.*, in tlalocan xiuhcalco, *id est*,
>   acxoyacalco. Ayaquizqui, *q.n.*, umpa ualquizque. Aquamotla acatonalaya,
>   *q.n.*, y notauan yn oquacuiloan acatonal.
>   6. Ahuia xicanouia nauia xiyamotecaya, *q.n.*, xiuian ximotecati. Ay
>   poyauhtlan, *q.n.*, in umpa poyauhtlan tepeticpac. Ayauh chicauaztica
>   ayauicalo tlalocana, *q.n.*, ayauh chicauaztica in auicalo tlalocan.
>   7. Aua nach tozcuecuexi niyayalizqui, *q.n.*, y nach tozcuecuex y ye
>   niauh niman ye choca.
>   8. Ahuia queyamica xinechiuaya, *q.n.*, quenamican y ya niauh aço
>   anechtemozque. Aniquiya ilhuiquetl tetzapilla niyayalizqui ayaichocaya, *
>   q.n.*, onquilhui yn tetzapilli ye niyauh niman ye choca.
>   9. Ahuia nauhxiuhticaya nitopanecauiloc, *q.n.*, nauhxiuhtica in
>   topanecauiloz, *id est*, in tepan mochiuaz. Ayoc inomatia ay motlapoalli,
>   *q.n.*, aocmo nomatia iniquin motlapoalpan. Ca oximoac ye quetzalcalla
>   nepanauia, *q.n.*, ye qualcan ye netlamachtiloyan ynemca. Ay yaxcana
>   teizcaltiquetl, *q.n.*, iniaxca inic oteizcalli.
>   10. Ahuia xiyanouia, *q.n.*, xiuia. Auia xiya motecaya ay poyauhtla, *
>   q.n.*, ximotecati in umpa poyauhtla. Ayauh chicauaztica auicallo
>   tlalocan, *q.n.*, ayauh chicauaztica in auicallo in umpa tlallocan.
>
> The Hymn of Tlaloc.
>
>   1. In Mexico the god appears; thy banner is unfolded in all directions,
>   and no one weeps.
>   2. I, the god, have returned again, I have turned again to the place of
>   abundance of blood-sacrifices; there when the day grows old, I am beheld
>   as a god.
>   3. Thy work is that of a noble magician; truly thou hast made thyself to
>   be of our flesh; thou hast made thyself, and who dare affront thee?
>   4. Truly he who affronts me does not find himself well with me; my
>   fathers took by the head the tigers and the serpents.
>   5. In Tlalocan, in the verdant house, they play at ball, they cast the
>   reeds.
>   6. Go forth, go forth to where the clouds are spread abundantly, where
>   the thick mist makes the cloudy house of Tlaloc.
>   7. There with strong voice I rise up and cry aloud.
>   8. Go ye forth to seek me, seek for the words which I have said, as I
>   rise, a terrible one, and cry aloud.
>   9. After four years they shall go forth, not to be known, not to be
>   numbered, they shall descend to the beautiful house, to unite together and
>   know the doctrine.
>   10. Go forth, go forth to where the clouds are spread abundantly, where
>   the thick mist makes the cloudy house of Tlaloc.
>
> Notes.
>
> The god Tlaloc shared with Huitzilopochtli the highest place in the Mexican
> Pantheon. He was the deity who presided over the waters, the rains, the
> thunder and the lightning. The annual festival in his honor took place about
> the time of corn-planting, and was intended to secure his favor for this
> all-important crop. Its details are described at great length by Diego Duran,
> *Historia de Nueva España*, cap. 86, and Sahagun, *Historia*, Lib. II., cap.
> 25, and elsewhere. His name is derived from *tlalli*, earth. *Tlalocan*,
> referred to in v. 5, ?the place of Tlaloc,? was the name of a mountain east
> of Tenochtitlan, where the festival of the god was celebrated; but it had
> also a mythical meaning, equivalent to ?the earthly Paradise,? the abode of
> happy souls.
>
> It will be observed that v. 10 is a repetition of v. 6. The word
> *ayauicalo*refers to the
> *ayauhcalli*, ?house of mist,? the home of the rain god, which Sahagun
> informs us was represented at the annual festival by four small buildings
> near the water?s edge, carefully disposed to face the four cardinal points
> of the compass (Sahagun, *ubi supra*).
>
> In v. 8 the expression *tetzauhpilli* (*tetzauhqui*, to frighten) may be
> explained by the figure of Tlaloc, whose statue, says Duran, was that of *un
> espantable monstruo, la cara muy fea* (*ibid.*).
>
> The compound in v. 10, *nauhxiuhtica*, ?after four years,? appears to refer
> to the souls of the departed brave ones, who, according to Aztec mythology,
> passed to the heaven for four years and after that returned to the
> terrestrial Paradise,?the palace of Tlaloc. (See my paper, *The Journey of
> the Soul*, in *Proceedings of the Numismatic and Antiquarian Society of
> Philadelphia, 1883*.)
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 8:28 AM, Susana Moraleda
> <susana at losrancheros.org>wrote:
>
>>  Thank you Stefanie. I do have Sahagun's Historia General (Consejo
>> Nacional para la Cultura y las Artes) but it is the Spanish version of the
>> Codice Florentino (Lopez Austin and Garcia Quintana).  There are no Nahuatl
>> quotes.
>>
>> I searched the books you suggested in "Google books" but couldn't find
>> anything.
>> Would you kindly have any other suggestion?
>>
>> Susana
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Stefanie Teufel <stefanyteufel at yahoo.de>
>> *To:* nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 13, 2011 11:44 AM
>> *Subject:* [Nahuat-l] WG: Himno a Tlaloc
>>
>>  Dear Susana,
>>
>> you will find the song of Tlaloc in Nahuatl:
>>
>> -in Sahgún´s Codex Florentinius, Book II "The Ceremonies". For example
>> Anderson and Dibble 1981:224.
>>
>> - in Sahgún´s Historia General, Book II. For example the edition of
>> Porrúa/Garibay 1989:174
>>
>> -in Sahagún´s Primeros Memoriales, folio 274. See for example Sullivan.
>>
>> Best
>> Stefanie
>>
>> ----- Weitergeleitete Mail ----
>> *Von:* Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>
>> *An:* Nahuat-l <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, den 13. Januar 2011, 10:40:54 Uhr
>> *Betreff:* [Nahuat-l] Himno a Tlaloc
>>
>>
>> Would anyone know where can I find the Nahuatl text of the "Himno a
>> Tlaloc"? The one quoted by Sahagun.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Susana
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>>  <http://www.bandoo.com/wp/oe.php?plg=OE&ad2=146&&elm=sign>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jeanne L. Gillespie, Ph.D.
> Associate Dean and Director of Interdisciplinary Studies
> College of Arts and Letters
> The University of Southern Mississippi
>
> 601-266-4315
> jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu
>



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From cuecuex at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 05:17:58 2011
From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 23:17:58 -0600
Subject: WG :Himno a Tlaloc
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.231758.0600.CUECUEX@GMAIL.COM>

Hola Susana y demas foristas

Si quieres una paleografia del nahuatl, su traducción al español y
comentarios sobre el contenido de la traducción ver Veinte Himnos Sacros de
los Nahuas Angel Ma Garibay UNAM

Si quieres sólo la tradución del nahuatl al español ver la Historia General
de las Cosas de la Nueva España de Editorial Porrua el texto traducido por
Garibay de los himnos sacros viene como uno de sus apendices

Si quieres ver otra versión de paleografia y de traducción al español en una
edición mas barata ( 60 devaluados pesitos menos de cinco dolares o tres
euros) entonces compra Edicion Especial Nº 30 de la Revista de Arqueologia
Mexicana dedicado a la Religión Mexica.

Ahí viene la versión nahuatl y la versión al español de los cantos sacros
hecha por Rafael Tena un investigador del INAH .

Si tu logras obtener las distintas versiones que te han señalado veras que
siendo similares no son iguales.

Ahí radica el "arte" primero de una buena paleografía y luego de su
correspondiente y certera traducción. Ahí es donde se aprecia quien en este
campo tiene el don de mascar clavos siendo chimuelo.

En algunos casos veras que las diferencias en las versiones paleografiadas y
traducidas son muy significativas y esto repercute en su interpretación y en
su utilización posterior.

No he estudiado este himno de Tlaloc y no se si sea el caso que sí se
presenta en otros por ejemplo en el himno de Otontecutli o en el de Atlahua,
el de Amimitl o en los de Huitzilopochtli.

Roberto Romero Gutierrez
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From cuecuex at gmail.com  Mon Jan 17 06:13:24 2011
From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 00:13:24 -0600
Subject: Traducci=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n_?= de un son cazcan
Message-ID: <MON.17.JAN.2011.001324.0600.CUECUEX@GMAIL.COM>

En su libro Magia y Religion, Gonzalo Aguirre Beltrán coloca la copia de un
"son huaxteco" [sic en el documento colonial ]  que cantaba una india
llamada Francis Rodríguez  apodada o llamada la Barbola que vivía en las las
cercanías de Zacatecas y que era hablante de un idioma caxcan o nahuatl de
la región.

Éste "son" que  cantaba tañiendo una guitarra la Barbola confesó que lo
aprendió de otra india mexicana.

La Barbola fue presa por el "Santo Oficio" por buscar adivinar con jicara de
agua, copos de algodón,  flecha e ingestón de peyote si su cliente Mariana
Costilla había de juntarse con Don Melchor.

La propuesta de version nahuatl y castellano que Aguirre  Beltran da de éste
canto dice así

Tlazolcihuapilli                                    Mujer divina y hechicera
cemicac inichpochlti                           vírgen para siempre jamás
Yaoquil itonatiuh                                 espiga guerrera del sol
yahuallan Yohualli                               que presides el cerco de la
noche
Ahuayahuayan                                    donde es dios el lanuginoso
[sic ??] cactus
can ichichimeco                                  en el país de los
chichimecas
Nixtlacuilolli                                        Tú, la del rostro
pintado de blanco !


Me parece que la traducción de Aguirre tiene varios errores Yo creo que
sería la siguiente

Tlazolcihuapilli                                    Noble Mujer preciosa
 cemicac inichpochli                           siempre virgen
Yaoquil itonatiuh                                 jefa guerrera del sol
yahuallan Yohualli                               redondo de la noche
Ahuayahuayan                                    Ahuaya [o]huaya   [expresion
de júbilo]
can ichichimeco                                  en el lugar de los
chichimecas
Nixtlacuilolli                                         flor del desierto

Pongo a su verdadero conocimiento del nahuatl esta traducción

Esperando y agradeciendo de antemano todas las críticas y observaciones así
como el tiempo.que se tomen para ello

Roberto Romero Gutierrez
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From vazquezdiaz at aol.com  Thu Jan 13 20:16:39 2011
From: vazquezdiaz at aol.com (vazquezdiaz at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:16:39 -0500
Subject: tlajomulco & Tlalcosahua
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.151639.0500.>




De un punto de vista de l etimologia, que tienen en comun las palabras tlajomulco y tlacosahua?
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From t_amaya at megared.net.mx  Tue Jan 18 03:45:12 2011
From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amaya)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:45:12 -0600
Subject: WG :Himno a Tlaloc
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=G7M=Me4wA2rnNBqVFMLcj0SZP-5T-mc4EfMAK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JAN.2011.214512.0600.TAMAYA@MEGARED.NET.MX>

Hola Roberto ¡!!

 

Gracias por el tip de la revista. La voy a conseguir. Tengo para mí que
Rafael Tena es un excelente traductor del nahuatlahtolli al español. 

 

Saludos. 

 

Tomas Amaya

 

 

 

De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de roberto romero
Enviado el: Jueves, 13 de Enero de 2011 11:18 p.m.
Para: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Nahuat-l] WG :Himno a Tlaloc

 


Hola Susana y demas foristas

Si quieres una paleografia del nahuatl, su traducción al español y
comentarios sobre el contenido de la traducción ver Veinte Himnos Sacros de
los Nahuas Angel Ma Garibay UNAM 

Si quieres sólo la tradución del nahuatl al español ver la Historia General
de las Cosas de la Nueva España de Editorial Porrua el texto traducido por
Garibay de los himnos sacros viene como uno de sus apendices 

Si quieres ver otra versión de paleografia y de traducción al español en una
edición mas barata ( 60 devaluados pesitos menos de cinco dolares o tres
euros) entonces compra Edicion Especial Nº 30 de la Revista de Arqueologia
Mexicana dedicado a la Religión Mexica.

Ahí viene la versión nahuatl y la versión al español de los cantos sacros
hecha por Rafael Tena un investigador del INAH .

Si tu logras obtener las distintas versiones que te han señalado veras que
siendo similares no son iguales.

 

Ahí radica el "arte" primero de una buena paleografía y luego de su
correspondiente y certera traducción. Ahí es donde se aprecia quien en este
campo tiene el don de mascar clavos siendo chimuelo.


En algunos casos veras que las diferencias en las versiones paleografiadas y
traducidas son muy significativas y esto repercute en su interpretación y en
su utilización posterior.

No he estudiado este himno de Tlaloc y no se si sea el caso que sí se
presenta en otros por ejemplo en el himno de Otontecutli o en el de Atlahua,
el de Amimitl o en los de Huitzilopochtli.

Roberto Romero Gutierrez 

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Jan 18 13:18:50 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 08:18:50 -0500
Subject: Moteuctzoma's headress to return to Mexico
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.081850.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

 From Art Daily:
http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=44251


MEXICO CITY.- Negotiations conducted for 3 years by the Mexican Ministry of 
Foreign Affairs (SRE) and the National Institute of Anthropology and History 
(INAH) before the Austrian Government, are about to reach a historical agreement 
that would bring Moctezuma´s Headdress to Mexican territory.

Friendly relations sustained between the Mexican and Austrian Governments would 
achieve a good-will exchange that would crystallize the dream of millions of 
Mexicans of admiring the feather headdress attributed to the last Mexica 
tlatoani (ruler).

This is an unprecedented collaboration project between museums headed towards a 
better understanding of the headdress, which efforts have been intensified 
during the administration of President Felipe Calderon.

In February 2010 was constituted a bi-national commission in charge of 
conducting scientific analysis of the piece to determine its physical state and 
identify the necessary restoration processes that would allow its eventual 
transport and exhibition in our country. When the project ends, a unique 
publication will be produced to show the artistic, cultural and historical value 
of the feather headgear.

Mexico and Austria acknowledge the Prehispanic piece as common cultural 
heritage, and, it that spirit, assume the responsibility.

SRE and INAH conduct conversations with authorities of the Austrian Ministries 
of Foreign Affairs, Culture and Education, the Museum of Ethnology and the 
Museum of Arts History (Kunsthistorisches Museum) in Vienna, to which the 
Ethnology Museum belongs, to examine the legal and technical terms in which the 
headdress can be transported to Mexico on loan. In reciprocity, Mexican 
authorities will study the possibility of a piece with significance for Austria, 
safeguarded in a Mexican museum, being sent to that country, also on loan.

SRE and INAH will keep the public informed regarding the development of this 
important project that has the objective of achieving that Mexicans can admire 
the Moctezuma's Headdress, piece of great importance due to its symbolic and 
historical value, attending a long-time concern thanks to cooperation between 
both countries.

-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From vazquezdiaz at aol.com  Tue Jan 18 16:00:24 2011
From: vazquezdiaz at aol.com (vazquezdiaz at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 11:00:24 -0500
Subject: tlal co sahua ---- tla jo mul co and tla za zal ca
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.110024.0500.>




Please take the time to explain the significance, relationship or etymology of these three places.
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From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com  Tue Jan 18 19:49:30 2011
From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:49:30 +0000
Subject: the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.194930.0000.IAN.MURSELL@BTINTERNET.COM>

Dear Listeros,

We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received
concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation
account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the
evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational
website.  You can see the end result here -

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47

It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out
there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In
any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to
read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and
to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up
before as a thread)...

Best wishes,

Ian

Ian Mursell

MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University

Director, 'Mexicolore'
28 Warriner Gardens
London SW11 4EB, U.K.
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
www.aztecs.org
Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
info at mexicolore.co.uk

1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over
2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching
resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and
much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'
(British Museum Education Service)


 


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Jan 18 20:22:00 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:22:00 -0500
Subject: the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
In-Reply-To: <C95B9F4A.19C4E%Ian.Mursell@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.152200.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

This looks interesting, Ian. Thanks for sending it. I will definitely 
enjoy taking a look.

Michael

Also, since this is purely convenient--je m'excuse-- here's a brief 
message for another listero:

Papalohtzin,

Ahmo onimitzilnamic. iciuhca nimitzihcuiloz.

Tlatziuqui

%-)


Quoting Ian Mursell <Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com>:

> Dear Listeros,
>
> We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received
> concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation
> account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the
> evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational
> website.  You can see the end result here -
>
> http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47
>
> It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out
> there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In
> any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to
> read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and
> to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up
> before as a thread)...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ian
>
> Ian Mursell
>
> MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University
>
> Director, 'Mexicolore'
> 28 Warriner Gardens
> London SW11 4EB, U.K.
> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
> www.aztecs.org
> Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
> info at mexicolore.co.uk
>
> 1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over
> 2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching
> resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and
> much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'
> (British Museum Education Service)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From kay.a.read at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 22:54:26 2011
From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:54:26 -0600
Subject: the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
In-Reply-To: <C95B9F4A.19C4E%Ian.Mursell@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.165426.0600.KAY.A.READ@GMAIL.COM>

Hello,

I have used a delightful article in my 100-level undergraduate class that
treats this image as an important myth and traces its roots from whatever
beginnings we know and many of its changes all the way to the present.  It
is very accessible and is useful because it gets away from some idea of
for-all-time "truth" about these images and stories that change so naturally
anyway.  It is:

Alfred Lopez-Austin
"The Miracle of the Eagle and the Cactus"

In *The Rabbit on the Face of the Moon:  Mythology in the Mesoamerican
Tradition.*  Translated by Bernard Ortiz de Montellano and Thelma Ortiz de
Montellano, UT:  University of Utah Press, 1999:  51-60

Hope this helps,

Kay Read

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Ian Mursell <Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com>wrote:

> Dear Listeros,
>
> We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received
> concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation
> account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the
> evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational
> website.  You can see the end result here -
>
> http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47
>
> It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out
> there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.
>  In
> any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to
> read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question
> and
> to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up
> before as a thread)...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ian
>
> Ian Mursell
>
> MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University
>
> Director, 'Mexicolore'
> 28 Warriner Gardens
> London SW11 4EB, U.K.
> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
> www.aztecs.org
> Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
> info at mexicolore.co.uk
>
> 1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in
> over
> 2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching
> resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and
> much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'
> (British Museum Education Service)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Jan 19 01:40:41 2011
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:40:41 -0600
Subject: the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
In-Reply-To: <C95B9F4A.19C4E%Ian.Mursell@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.194041.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Dear Ian:

 

The page looks good. I think the word tlachinolli can be translated more
precisely than “a burned thing”. The latter phrase is found a lot in
Mesoamericanist literature. It looks like it was taken from Alonso de
Molina’s (1571) gloss “Tlachinolli. cosa quemada assi, o chamuscada.” The
word “assi” is important because Molina is referring to the previous entry,
“Tlachinoliztli. el acto de quemar los campos;” before that is “Tlachinoa.
ni. quemar los campos o montes. Pr. onitlachino.” Molina also registers the
verb without fusing the object prefix tla- to the root: “chinoa. nitla.
quemar los campos. preteri. onitlachino.”

 

Tlachinolli, then, is a noun derived from the verb chinoa, “to burn the
cultivated field or bush,” meaning “burnt field,” or “burnt bush” (“bush” is
used here to mean uncultivated land with mixed vegetation, which seems to be
what Molina means here by “montes”; an alternative translation would be
“hills” or “mountains”). It works like this:

 

-          verb: chinoa:, “to burn the field/bush/hill;”

-          passive form: tlachinolo: (tla + (chinoa - a) + lo:), “some
field/bush/hill is burned;”

-          deverbal noun derived from the passive form: tlachinolli (tla +
(chinoa: - a) + (lo: - o:) + li, “some burnt field/bush/hill.”

 

(I restored the long vowels in the latter analysis, using colons, for the
sake of precision.)

 

The pictorial signs associated with the Nahuatl doublet atl tlachinolli,
found on pre-Hispanic sculptures like the Teocalli de la Guerra Sagrada and
the Huehuetl de Malinalco, as well as several pictorial manuscripts from the
early colonial period, communicate the idea of a conflagration in cultivated
fields. Present in most of these sign clusters, in combination with igneous
signs (usually a butterfly-like flame and bands of red-orange fire, is the
combination of curved elements like the letter ‘c’ with rows of dots, on a
grey background, found in other signs that express the idea of cultivated
fields. An example of the latter is the Xochimilco toponymic sign on the
Piedra de Tízoc and the Piedra del ex Arzobispado, and its counterpart in
the Codex Mendoza, in all of which a rectangle with these elements appears
under flower signs (Xochitl + (milli - li) + co, “in the cultivated fields
of flowers”). So I think we can discard “bush” and “hill” and assume the
Nahuas were thinking “cultivated field (or fields).”

 

Sahagún explains the metaphorical meaning of the doublet (difrasismo) atl
tlachinolli in book 6, chapter 43 of the Florentine Codex. The Nahuatl texts
reads: “Teuatl, tlachinolli. Inin tla / tolli, itechpa mitoaia: in uei iao /
oiotl muchioaia, anoço uei coco / liztli: mitoaia. Otopan muchiuh, / anoço
otopan onquiz: iniuhqui / teuatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: / cocoliztli,
anoço uel iehoatl in / iaoiotl.” This can be translated literally as: “The
divine water, the burnt fields. With this saying it was said: the great war
was done, or the great sickness. It was said: over us was done, or over us
flowed, something like the divine water, the burnt fields. It means: the
sickness or this war.” Sahagún’s Spanish translation, less literal than
mine, is close in meaning: “Quiere dezir esta letra. El mar / o la
chamusquina vino sobre noso / tros o paso sobre nosotros. Por meta / phora
se dize: de la pestilencia o / guerra que quando se acaba dizen /
otonpanquiz inteuatl in tlachinolli. / Paso sobre nosotros la mar y el
fuego.”

 

I hope this helps clarify the meaning of atl tlachinolli.

 

Saludos desde Guanajuato,

 

David

 

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de Ian Mursell
Enviado el: martes, 18 de enero de 2011 13:50
Para: Nahuat-l ((messages)); Aztlan
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare -
yes, but the snake...?

 

Dear Listeros,

 

We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received

concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation

account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the

evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational

website.  You can see the end result here -

 

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47

 

It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out

there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In

any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to

read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and

to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up

before as a thread)...

 

Best wishes,

 

Ian

 

Ian Mursell

 

MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University

 

Director, 'Mexicolore'

28 Warriner Gardens

London SW11 4EB, U.K.

Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577

Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173

www.aztecs.org

Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com

info at mexicolore.co.uk

 

1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over

2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching

resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and

much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'

(British Museum Education Service)

 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

Nahuatl mailing list

Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Jan 19 01:50:21 2011
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:50:21 -0600
Subject: RV:  the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.195021.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

[My last post slipped out of my hands with a few errata. They are corrected
here.]

 

**********************************************************

 

Dear Ian:

 

The page looks good. I think the word tlachinolli can be translated more
precisely than “a burned thing”. The latter phrase is found a lot in
Mesoamericanist literature. It looks like it was taken from Alonso de
Molina’s (1571) gloss “Tlachinolli. cosa quemada assi, o chamuscada.” The
word “assi” is important because Molina is referring to the previous entry,
“Tlachinoliztli. el acto de quemar los campos;” before that is “Tlachinoa.
ni. quemar los campos o montes. Pr. onitlachino.” Molina also registers the
verb without fusing the object prefix tla- to the root: “chinoa. nitla.
quemar los campos. preteri. onitlachino.”

 

Tlachinolli, then, is a noun derived from the verb chinoa, “to burn the
cultivated field or bush,” meaning “burnt field,” or “burnt bush” (“bush” is
used here to mean uncultivated land with mixed vegetation, which seems to be
what Molina means here by “montes”; an alternative translation would be
“hills” or “mountains”). It works like this:

 

-          verb: chinoa:, “to burn the field/bush/hill;”

-          passive form: tlachinolo: (tla + (chinoa: - a:) + lo:), “some
field/bush/hill is burned;”

-          deverbal noun derived from the passive form: tlachinolli (tla +
(chinoa: - a:) + (lo: - o:) + li, “some burnt field/bush/hill.”

 

(I restored the long vowels in the latter analysis, using colons, for the
sake of precision.)

 

The pictorial signs associated with the Nahuatl doublet atl tlachinolli,
found on pre-Hispanic sculptures like the Teocalli de la Guerra Sagrada and
the Huehuetl de Malinalco, as well as several pictorial manuscripts from the
early colonial period, communicate the idea of a conflagration in cultivated
fields. Present in most of these sign clusters, in combination with igneous
signs (usually a butterfly-like flame and bands of red-orange fire, is the
combination of curved elements like the letter ‘c’ with rows of dots, on a
grey background, found in other signs that express the idea of cultivated
fields). An example of the latter is the Xochimilco toponymic sign on the
Piedra de Tízoc and the Piedra del ex Arzobispado, and its counterpart in
the Codex Mendoza, in all of which a rectangle with these elements appears
under flower signs ((xochitl - tl) + (milli - li) + co, “in the cultivated
fields of flowers”). So I think we can discard “bush” and “hill” and assume
the Nahuas were thinking “cultivated field (or fields).”

 

Sahagún explains the metaphorical meaning of the doublet (difrasismo) atl
tlachinolli in book 6, chapter 43 of the Florentine Codex. The Nahuatl texts
reads: “Teuatl, tlachinolli. Inin tla / tolli, itechpa mitoaia: in uei iao /
oiotl muchioaia, anoço uei coco / liztli: mitoaia. Otopan muchiuh, / anoço
otopan onquiz: iniuhqui / teuatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: / cocoliztli,
anoço uel iehoatl in / iaoiotl.” This can be translated literally as: “The
divine water, the burnt fields. With this saying it was said: the great war
was done, or the great sickness. It was said: over us was done, or over us
flowed, something like the divine water, the burnt fields. It means: the
sickness or this war.” Sahagún’s Spanish translation, less literal than
mine, is close in meaning: “Quiere dezir esta letra. El mar / o la
chamusquina vino sobre noso / tros o paso sobre nosotros. Por meta / phora
se dize: de la pestilencia o / guerra que quando se acaba dizen /
otonpanquiz inteuatl in tlachinolli. / Paso sobre nosotros la mar y el
fuego.”

 

I hope this helps clarify the meaning of atl tlachinolli.

 

Saludos desde Guanajuato,

 

David

 

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de Ian Mursell
Enviado el: martes, 18 de enero de 2011 13:50
Para: Nahuat-l ((messages)); Aztlan
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare -
yes, but the snake...?

 

Dear Listeros,

 

We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received

concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation

account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the

evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational

website.  You can see the end result here -

 

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47

 

It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out

there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In

any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to

read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and

to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up

before as a thread)...

 

Best wishes,

 

Ian

 

Ian Mursell

 

MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University

 

Director, 'Mexicolore'

28 Warriner Gardens

London SW11 4EB, U.K.

Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577

Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173

www.aztecs.org

Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com

info at mexicolore.co.uk

 

1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over

2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching

resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and

much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'

(British Museum Education Service)

-------------- next part --------------
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http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From cuecuex at gmail.com  Wed Jan 19 07:36:39 2011
From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 01:36:39 -0600
Subject: the eagle, the cactus, the stone,
 sacred warfare o el falso s=?iso-8859-1?Q?=EDmbolo_?=de la
 fundacion
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2011.013639.0600.CUECUEX@GMAIL.COM>

Hola foristas

Como parte de la falsificación de la historia de lo que ahora se llama
México se encuentra el llamado escudo nacional en donde se estan enfrentando
en guerra permanente dos animales sacros de la religión indigena
prehispanica mesoamericana, el águila y la serpiente, representaciones
nahuales de deidades fundamentales para los mexicas y los tenochcas, .

Y quiero destacar que no identifico al aguila con el sol en automatico, como
muchos "gatilllos veloces" en la rámas arqueológicas y antropologicas
disparan inmeditamente, por lo cual identifican en todos los casos a el
aguila = sol. Esto es un error pues el aguila representa también la luna.

En realidad dicha imagen de un águila devorando o sujetando con el pico a
una serpiente

1.- SOLO APARECE EN EL ATLAS DE DURAN y EN LA IMAGEN DEL CÓDICE AUBIN donde
los Tlacuilos por conocimiento, iniciativa o indicaciones plasmaron de esa
manera el símbolo central de la lámina que ilustra la fundación de
Tenochtitlan que no la de México esta fundación no se representa
pictoricamente.

Aunque la obra de Duran es junto con el códice Ramirez y la de Tezozomoc
derivada de un original perdido que Barlow llamó la Crónica X tenemos el
caso de :

2.- En el CÓDICE Ramirez el águila atrapa en sus garra un pájaro y en ello
la imagen es fiel al texto que le precede en el Códice Ramirez

3.- En la Crónica Mexicana de Tezozomoc otra obra derivada de la Crónica X
lo que se dice es que estaba un águila posada arriba de un nopal.

De las obras deudoras de la crónica X sólo en Duran se coloca un águila
devorando una serpiente

4.- En el texto del códice Aubin se repite esta descripción sólo un águila
parada encima de un nopal y a los pies de este su nido hecho de plumas rojas
y azules

5.- En la imágen de este hecho que tiene dicho códice Aubin lo que se pinta
en la Lámina NO ES FIEL REPRESENTACIÓN DE LO QUE SE DICE EN EL TEXTO y pinta
un aguila que devora una serpiente

6.- En la lámina I del Códice Mendocino el aguila toma con su garra
izquierda una TUNA ROJA

7.- En la parte trasera de la escultura tenochca llamada por Caso el
"Teocalli de la Guerra Sagrada", el águila no sujeta nada con el pico, con
la garra derecha se posa sobre una tuna y con la garra izquierda sujeta el
símbolo TEUATL TLACHINOLLI que significa AGUA DIVINA TIERRA QUEMADA y que
esta labrado sugiriendo que brotó del pico del águila.

En dicha escultura se encuentra el conjunto símbolico siempre presente en
todas las imágenes de la fundación de Tenochtitlán: conjunto simbólico
formado por una piedra, un nopal y un águila.

Éste conjunto simbólico brota de la enorme boca de una deidad recostada que
porta anillos oculares de Tlaloc. Hay que recordar que en el texto del
códice Aubin , el dios Tlaloc le indica al ahogado teomama Axoloua que en
dicho sitio funden la casas divinas en donde reinaran Tlaloc junto a su hijo
Huitzilopochtli.

El símbolo TEUATL TLACHINOLLI (AGUA DIVINA TIERRA QUEMADA ) ha sido
manoseado y utilizado erroneamente.

El símbolo y el dicho TEUATL TLACHINOLLI era restringido para indicar
extendidas y graves enfermedades, epidemias , grandes desgracias y las
grandes guerras aquellas que liquidaban y exterminaban a los pueblos, las
guerras que enviaban los dioses.

Este símbolo esta compuesto por dos elementos de los cuales en lo general la
mayoría de los interpretes degrada y mal interpreta:

El primer elemento es TEUATL el AGUA DIVINA, ésto es, se indica un tipo
especial de agua: la divina

No se trata de cualquier agua sino sólo de aquella agua que dan los dioses,
el agua enviada por la divinidad y que no esta en la voluntad de los humanos
decidir si beben o no, el agua que por voluntad de los dioses los humanos la
beberan lo deseen o no.

Pero en las interpretaciones mas comunes el agua divina TEUATL ha sido
transformada en SIMPLE AGUA ESTO ES EN ATL

Esto es un error pues en el texto del Libro sexto del Códice Florentino está
escrito TEUATL (Agua divina) Y NO ATL (agua). cfr Libro sexto códice
Florentino folio 202V.

El segundo error del cual esta lleno la literatura arqueológica y
etnohistórica sobre los tenochcas y mexicas, es interpretar erroneamente el
conjunto simbólico  ATL TLACHINOLLI como sinónimo de GUERRA o de GUERRA
SAGRADA cuando este símbolo realmente trata de la agricultura como buscare
demostrar.

La belicista interpretación del símbolo indígena es producto de una ÓPTICA
CULTURAL OCCIDENTAL Y EUROPEA EN DONDE EFECTIVAMENTE CAMPO QUEMADO O TIERRA
QUEMADA son representaciones simbólicas, literarias culturales de la GUERRA
y ello lo fue así, por la forma en que se hizo la guerra en esas regiones,
desde las antiguas sociedades europeas precapitalistas hasta las modernas
matanzas planificadas del siglo XX.

Pero entre los pueblos mesoamericanos lo que en la guerra prehispánica se
buscaba quemar como objetivo militar fundamental era el Teocalli, la casa
sagrada del dios tutelar del pueblo, en la guerra prehispánica no se buscaba
o se practicaba quemar los campos.

Tlachinolli es sólo tierra quemada y no es guerra.

Quemar la tierra es una labor agrícola.

Cuando esta agricultura se practica en tierras de bosques de monte o como
agricultura nómada en bosques tropicales o zonas de selva baja como Yucatan,
se le llama agricultura de tumba [arboles] - quema- siembra.

Haciendo la roza o deshierbe con la quema de la tierra.

Es la forma de cultivo mas practicada en la actualidad por los campesinos de
la peninsula de Yucatán y es la principal responsable de la perturbación de
la vegetación del país y de su desforestación.

En la forma de cultivo indigena,  el quemar la tierra, el tlachinolli, es
una labor agrícola necesaria para preparar el suelo antes de sembrar o para
limpiar la milpa quemando el rastrojo, las cañas sin mazorcas de maiz, como
labor posterior a la cosecha.

Esta quema de las cañas sin mazorcas siempre se dio en la época prehispánica
por la ausencia de ganado.

Actualmente muchos campesinos usan el rastrojo para alimentar al ganado y ya
no hacen esta segunda quema posterior a la cosecha. Ahora algunos sólo
queman la tierra antes de la siembra para deshierbar (roza) y para ahuyentar
a los animales que podran en el futuro perjudicar la siembra.

Uno de los grandes problemas en el mes de noviembre y diciembre, despues de
la cosecha del ciclo agrícola de primavera, en las carreteras de las
regiones de cultivo temporalero de México es la quema de rastrojo en milpas,
cuyas humaredas ponen en riesgo a los vehiculos y por la seca pueden
provocar incendios mayores, el fenomeno se repite antes de marzo segun sea
la costumbre y como se hayan presentado las lluvias tempranas.

Unos campesinos se apuran a quemar el rastrojo en noviembre para volver a
sembrar y hacer la milpa "chica" llamada "milpa de medio año" o milpa
pequeña" .

Esta es una siembra de hortalizas, habas o acelgas y el algunos casos, en
zonas de humedales de monte, también de maiz.

Esta pequeña siembra maicera se da mas en donde a los sembrado de monte le
"pegan" las humedades y lluvias que traen los vientos del norte durante el
invierno, como es el caso de Meztitlan, la sierra de Otontepec y regiones de
la zona huasteca hacia el rumbo del golfo de México.

En Amealco, Querétaro hasta los 70´s cuando había mas superficie con bosque
en Noviembre se quemaba la tierra para hacer una milpa de medio año. Ahora
sólo se hace en monte con chicharo y haba o de hortaliza en tierras humedas
del Valle de Temazcalcingo.

De estas siembras de invierno Duran y Sahagún nos hablan en sus respectivas
historias.

El erroneo y falso concepto de atl tlachinolli leido comunmente tambien como
agua fuego y como sinonimo de guerra; es uno de los conceptos favoritos de
la interpretación dualista de la religión y de la llamada "filosofia"
nahuatl, es uno de los conceptos donde para los dualistas se expresa
claramente la contradicción dialectica usada por la filosofía indígena.

Pero en la realidad tanto el agua (lluvia o riego) y el fuego o sea quemar
la tierra y las hierbas, son partes constitutivas, necesarias y no
enfrentadas, no contrapuestas ni contradictorias de un mismo proceso
agrícola, de una totalidad: la siembra.

9.- El símbolo del Aguila fundadora o del aguila agorera como representación
nahual de una divinidad, el aguila que al posarse en un lugar indica donde
fundar una población, yo creo originalmente fue un mito otomi y que fue de
los otomies de donde lo tomaron los mexicas, así como tambien de los otomies
tomaron el nombre del pueblo que fundaron: Mexico, en el centro de la luna.

En pueblos otomíes del norte del Valle del Mezquital existe el mito que el
águila se poso en esos pueblos y que ahí en esos pueblos iba a ser México
pero como al águila algo no le gusto, se fue a otro lado.

En el pueblo de mayoria otomi de San Ildefonso Tultepec , Amealco,
Querétaro, municipio donde vivo, el mito señala que éste pueblo se fundo por
vez primera donde se paro el águila, en donde está la iglesia vieja y
abandonada, pero como al águila no le gusto ese sitio porque por ese rumbo
rondaba la mujer serpiente, decidio el águila irse a a parar donde ahora
esta la iglesia colonial del siglo XVIII y ahí los otomíes fundaron el
pueblo de San Ildefonso.

En el Memorial de Méritos del cacique Pedro Martín del Toro, conquistador
otomi y exterminador de chichimecas, en una de sus láminas aparece dibujada
el símbolo del aguila parada en una nopal y atrapando con el pico una
serpiente la cual además tiene una flecha en el cuerpo.

Este símbolo del aguíla en un nopal y devorando serpientes se pinta donde se
representa el sitio donde los conquistadores otomís exterminaron a los
aborígenes chichimecas guachichiles.

En lá citada lámina dicho acto de liquidación y exterminio de la población
aborígen se representa pintando muerto al cacique chichimeca Mazadín, indio
guachichil que en otras fuentes llaman Mazcorro.

En dicho sitio donde fue muerta la población aborígen y se conquistó
mediante el exterminio de la población local y la liquidacion del mando
aborígen, los conquistadores otomies fundaron los poblados de Sombrete
(Zacatecas) y de Guadiana (Durango) Ver en Memorial .lámina 2 f.19.r

Esto nos regresa al significado de en que casos los indígenas mesoamericanos
usaban los simbolos de un águila devorando una serpiente.

Tal parece que ese símbolo Aguila devorando una serpiente sólo se utilizaba
para indicar la fundación de un poblado que había sido precedido de una
conquista con guerra de exterminio de la población local y que implicaba la
eliminación de los mandos politico militares aborígenes.

Acaso ese tipo de fundación es lo que sabían los tlacuilos que pintaron el
Atlas de Duran y el códice Aubin y es lo que nos quisieron comunicar que
había ocurrido en el lugar donde se fundo Tenochtitlan y por ello pintaron
una águila devorando una serpiente. Pictoricamente nos comunican que la
fundación de Tenochtitlan se hizo teniendo como paso previo la conquista y
el exterminio de una población aborigen local , de ser así pienso quizas fue
de origen otomi o chalmeca.

ROBERTO ROMERO GUTIERREZ
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From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com  Sun Jan 23 09:56:34 2011
From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:56:34 +0000
Subject: RV:  the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
In-Reply-To: <002301cbb77b$3bd02bf0$b37083d0$@net.mx>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JAN.2011.095634.0000.IAN.MURSELL@BTINTERNET.COM>

Thank you, David, for taking the time and trouble to give me this very full
explanation of the meaning of 'atl tlachinolli'.  I've taken your suggestion
and edited the phrase to read 'water, burnt fields'.

Indeed thank you everyone for your feedback on this topic.  Having recently
corresponded with Alfredo López-Austín, I recommend his other article on
this question -

El aguila y la serpiente, in 'Mitos Mexicanos' edited by Enrique Florescano
(1995)

- in which he demonstrates clearly the presence of eagle-devouring-snake
sculptures in pre-Hispanic Mesoamerica, which he associates with fundamental
binary opposites such as sun and water, dry and rainy seasons, etc.  I've
tried to incorporate some of his arguments into the edited version of the
page.  As L-A argues, when legend, miracle, official history and reality all
fuse in a single literary pot, it's hardly surprising there are so many
contradictions and ambiguities...

Muchos saludos,

Ian


> 
> 
> [My last post slipped out of my hands with a few errata. They are corrected
> here.]
>  
> **********************************************************
>  
> Dear Ian:
>  
> The page looks good. I think the word tlachinolli can be translated more
> precisely than ³a burned thing². The latter phrase is found a lot in
> Mesoamericanist literature. It looks like it was taken from Alonso de Molina¹s
> (1571) gloss ³Tlachinolli. cosa quemada assi, o chamuscada.² The word ³assi²
> is important because Molina is referring to the previous entry,
> ³Tlachinoliztli. el acto de quemar los campos;² before that is ³Tlachinoa. ni.
> quemar los campos o montes. Pr. onitlachino.² Molina also registers the verb
> without fusing the object prefix tla- to the root: ³chinoa. nitla. quemar los
> campos. preteri. onitlachino.²
>  
> Tlachinolli, then, is a noun derived from the verb chinoa, ³to burn the
> cultivated field or bush,² meaning ³burnt field,² or ³burnt bush² (³bush² is
> used here to mean uncultivated land with mixed vegetation, which seems to be
> what Molina means here by ³montes²; an alternative translation would be
> ³hills² or ³mountains²). It works like this:
>  
> -          verb: chinoa:, ³to burn the field/bush/hill;²
> -          passive form: tlachinolo: (tla + (chinoa: - a:) + lo:), ³some
> field/bush/hill is burned;²
> -          deverbal noun derived from the passive form: tlachinolli (tla +
> (chinoa: - a:) + (lo: - o:) + li, ³some burnt field/bush/hill.²
>  
> (I restored the long vowels in the latter analysis, using colons, for the sake
> of precision.)
>  
> The pictorial signs associated with the Nahuatl doublet atl tlachinolli, found
> on pre-Hispanic sculptures like the Teocalli de la Guerra Sagrada and the
> Huehuetl de Malinalco, as well as several pictorial manuscripts from the early
> colonial period, communicate the idea of a conflagration in cultivated fields.
> Present in most of these sign clusters, in combination with igneous signs
> (usually a butterfly-like flame and bands of red-orange fire, is the
> combination of curved elements like the letter Œc¹ with rows of dots, on a
> grey background, found in other signs that express the idea of cultivated
> fields). An example of the latter is the Xochimilco toponymic sign on the
> Piedra de Tízoc and the Piedra del ex Arzobispado, and its counterpart in the
> Codex Mendoza, in all of which a rectangle with these elements appears under
> flower signs ((xochitl - tl) + (milli - li) + co, ³in the cultivated fields of
> flowers²). So I think we can discard ³bush² and ³hill² and assume the Nahuas
> were thinking ³cultivated field (or fields).²
>  
> Sahagún explains the metaphorical meaning of the doublet (difrasismo) atl
> tlachinolli in book 6, chapter 43 of the Florentine Codex. The Nahuatl texts
> reads: ³Teuatl, tlachinolli. Inin tla / tolli, itechpa mitoaia: in uei iao /
> oiotl muchioaia, anoço uei coco / liztli: mitoaia. Otopan muchiuh, / anoço
> otopan onquiz: iniuhqui / teuatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: / cocoliztli,
> anoço uel iehoatl in / iaoiotl.² This can be translated literally as: ³The
> divine water, the burnt fields. With this saying it was said: the great war
> was done, or the great sickness. It was said: over us was done, or over us
> flowed, something like the divine water, the burnt fields. It means: the
> sickness or this war.² Sahagún¹s Spanish translation, less literal than mine,
> is close in meaning: ³Quiere dezir esta letra. El mar / o la chamusquina vino
> sobre noso / tros o paso sobre nosotros. Por meta / phora se dize: de la
> pestilencia o / guerra que quando se acaba dizen / otonpanquiz inteuatl in
> tlachinolli. / Paso sobre nosotros la mar y el fuego.²
>  
> I hope this helps clarify the meaning of atl tlachinolli.
>  
> Saludos desde Guanajuato,
>  
> David
>  
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
> En nombre de Ian Mursell
> Enviado el: martes, 18 de enero de 2011 13:50
> Para: Nahuat-l ((messages)); Aztlan
> Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
> but the snake...?
>  
> Dear Listeros,
>  
> We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received
> concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation
> account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the
> evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational
> website.  You can see the end result here -
>  
> http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47
>  
> It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out
> there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In
> any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to
> read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and
> to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up
> before as a thread)...
>  
> Best wishes,
>  
> Ian
>  
> Ian Mursell
>  
> MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University
>  
> Director, 'Mexicolore'
> 28 Warriner Gardens
> London SW11 4EB, U.K.
> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
> www.aztecs.org
> Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
> info at mexicolore.co.uk
>  
> 1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over
> 2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching
> resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and
> much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'
> (British Museum Education Service)
> 


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From t_amaya at megared.net.mx  Sat Jan 22 21:44:01 2011
From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (t_amaya at megared.net.mx)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 15:44:01 -0600
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JAN.2011.154401.0600.>

 
	Hola Vazquez Díaz 
	A continuación mis respuestas esperando te sean útiles.  
	Tlajomulco.  

	Anteriormente Tlacomolco o tlacomulco. De tlacomolli: hoquedad en la
tierra, barranco; cuando contiene agua se le llama aatlacomolli, v. g.
 Aatlacomulco (localidad del Edo. de México). Por lo tanto el
locativo tuyo significa: Donde hay hoquedades, barrancos. 
	Tlazazalca.  

	Su significado no se puede inferir fácilmente a partir de los
diccionarios, pero tiene que ver con pegar y pegamento. Para los que
hablan nahuat (región de Zacapoaxtla, Puebla, con la pronunciación
_tazazalca_ significa “algo que ha quedado o está pegajoso”. Y en
este caso no hay que buscarle mucho, pues es un termino usual. Por
ejemplo si el atole se ha derramado sobre la mesa se dice  ahora que,
“tazazalca” y hay que lavarla, limpiarla. Se trata pues, de de
algo pegajoso. Si es un locativo significaría un lugar pegajoso (por
ejemplo a causa de lodo arcilloso). 
	Tlalcosahua, o tlalcozahua.  

	Ya una vez expresé ene este foro que significaba “tierra
amarillenta”. Va una mayor explicación que en ese entonces no hice.
 
	Se compone de tlalli (tierra) y cozahua.  
	En el nahuat, variante que conozco bien por ser vecino de Cuetzalan,
la partícula verbal cozahua puede, a pesar de su terminación, ser
tambien intransitiva. Al igual que pehua (de empezar) o temohua (de
descender).  

	Por tanto la traducción del termino sería: tierra que amarillea.  
	Aquí habría que aclarar dos puntos: el de amarillo y la
composición de la palabra (_a late response to Michael_) 
	1.       Amarillo.  

	En la región de Cuetzalan y sobre todo en Huauchinango, todavía se
puede ver un animal llamado Cozahtli (especie de comadreja), cuyo
pelaje “amarillea” es decir refleja la luz y da ese efecto.
También podríamos decir que al reflejar la luz,  la descompone con
los colores del arco iris. Pero el efecto final que uno ve (estamos
hablando de percepción del color) es que amarillea.  

	También se aplica este concepto de color a: 

	Un collar con cuentas de diversos colores : cozcat o cozcatl.  

	Los penachos de los “quetzales”, una de las danzas de Cuetzalan.
Los penachos son los cozalimeh, singular: cozalli. Y es que, trenzando
las varas que van del centro hacia la circunferencia del penacho, se
tienen tiras de papel de diversos colores que forman como un arco iris
alrededor de la cabeza del danzante. El archo iris es conocido
también como Cozaltzin, que es la forma reverencial de cozalli, junto
con cocemalot vel cozamalot.  

	Otras palabras relacionadas con “amarillear” 

	Cozyo = lleno de color amarilloso 

	Acocilli = camarón de río, que se pone de tono amarilloso, casi
anaranjado, ya cocido.  
	Con todo esto tiene que ver la palabra cozahua y por tanto coztic.
Ver: Castillo Hernández, Mario Alberto,  _El mundo del color en
Cuetzalan: un estudio etnocientífico en una comunidad nahua,
_Colección Científica, INAH, México.  
	2.       La composición de la palabra.  

	Tomemos como ejemplo las palabras tepoz y nehnemi (metal + de
caminar). De éstas podemos derivar las palabras: tepoznehnemini o
tepoznehnenqui con el significado: el que camina como fierro. Pero
también se puede decir: tepoznehnemi, con el mismo significado (ce
tacat tepoznehnemi: una persona que camina como fierro).  

	Pero si separamos un poco las palabras y les damos otra entonación,
otro énfasis y dijeramos algo así como tépoz—nehnemi, ello
signifiaría “fierro que camina” , o sea un carro, un camión,
v.g.  “Né huitza tépoz—nehnemi”:  allí viene el camión. Por
otra parte “né huitza tepoznehnemi” o ne huitza in tepoznehnemi,
significa "allí viene el que camina como fierro".  
	Por tanto tlalcozahua se puede leer : tierra que amarillea, o bien
amarillea como tierra. Para mí lo primero es más lógico, ya que se
trata de un locativo.  

	Es el mismo caso de otras composiciones como: 
	 Huitzilopochtli, de Huitzilli—Opochtli: Colibri que es zurdo, o
sea colibrí zurdo (no podemos decir “zurdo como colibrí” ¿o
sí?).  

	Moctezuma, de Motecuh(de Tecuhtli)—zoma: Tu Señor que está
enojado 

	Tezcatli—Poca : Espejo que humea.  

	Cuauhtemoc: De cuauhtli y temoc. Aquí sí, según el énfasis puede
significar: ha descendido como águila (cuauhtemoc), o bien águila
que ha descendido (cuauh--temoc). Es el mismo caso de Juan Diego
Cuauhtlatoatzin: El que habla como águila (cuauhtlahtoatzin), o bien
águila que habla  (cuauh--tlahtoatzin). Esto es que, según el
énfasis, el tema cuauh, expresa  “aguila” o “como águila”;
aquí está lo interesante, pues según  lo pronuncie uno, el
signicado es diferente. Hay que notar que se ha suprimido el sufijo
sustantivador tli (li). También en el caso de  Huitzilopochtli,
Tlalcozahua y Motecuhzoma no se expresa la terminación. El caso de
Tezcatli--poca es diferente, a mi entender se hace uso de la
terminación tli en lugar de tl para el tema tezcauh (espejo), (más
comunmente tezcatl). Es decir que  se quiere expresar concretamente la
idea de un "espejo que humea".  
	Otros ejemplos: 

	Tlalpujahua, de tlallii, poxahuac : tierra (que está) suave,
suelta.  

	Altotonga: de atl: agua, totonca: caliente, es decir:  agua (que
está) caliente. Por supuesto, también puede descomponerse así: 
atl-totonqui-can -->  altotonccan --> altototonga: lugar de agua
caliente.  
	Desde luego hay que tomar en cuenta que hablamos de topónimos, de
antropónimos y también de nombres descriptivos: “cosa que ….
“: tepoz—mimiloni (fierro que rueda, ferrocarril); tepoz—paynal
(fierro que es rápido), o tepozpaynal (rápido de fierro). Hay casos
curiosos como Iztatlalco vs. tlalixtac que sepodrían traducir, ambos,
como "tierra blanca".  
	Estos ejemplos son los menos, ya que la composición preferida es
calificativo + lo calificado: iztacalco, ixtapan, ixtacamaztitlan,
cozcatlan, etc. etc.  
	Nimitzyoltlapalohua.  
	Tomas Amaya

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From t_amaya at megared.net.mx  Sun Jan 23 03:01:58 2011
From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (t_amaya at megared.net.mx)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 21:01:58 -0600
Subject: Traducci=?utf-8?Q?=C3=B3n_?=de un son cazcan
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JAN.2011.210158.0600.>

 
	Hola Roberto. Hola Listeros.  

	Te mando una versión de lo que para mí es el texto nahua.  

	Supongo que quien lo transcribió lo hizo de oídas. Y vaya que eso
es difícil. Como ejemplo te pido que a alguien muy ducho en inglés
le pidas que transcriba una canción cantada por los Doors o incluso
los Beatles, tan sólo escuchándola. No es nada sencillo. Tiene que
oírla varias veces. Seguro que habrá lugares donde se atore y
tendrá que recurrir a hablantes nativos. Y aun estos, se tardan a
veces para encontrar la palabra o palabras dichas por el cantante
(trata de transcribir un son jarocho a la primera y verás).  
	Más aún si se trata de una canción que ha pasado de generación
en generación. 
	Yo lo que hice fue tratar de cantarla y encontrarle una melodía,
una métrica, un ritmo. El resultado es: 
	:  
	Versión Aguirre B.  

	 Versión T. Amaya  

	Comentarios
	Tlazolcihuapilli            

	cemicac inichpochlti          Yaoquil itonatiuh                
yahuallan Yohualli                

	Ahuayahuayan                     can ichichimeco                   

	Nixtlacuilolli                                          

	Tlazohcihuapilli                                     
	cemicac nichpochlti                            
	Ya oyahqui i tonatiuh                                  
	Ya ohuallah in Yohualli                                
	Ahuayahuayan                                     

	 Ca niixixchimeco                                   

	 Nixtlacuilolli                                    

	Puede ser de tlazolli: basura, inmundicia yo más bien pienso que
viene de tlazohtli: algo precioso, más cihuapilli (señora).  
	 puede ser ni ichpochtli (primera persona sing.) o tiichpochtli
(segun pers. sing.) 
	Yaoquil me suena a ya oyahqui: ya vino 
	Yahuallan parece ser ya ohuallah, ya vino.  
	Ahuayahuayan, expresión como ayayayay del son 
	Ca, con el significado de pues o que.  

	Chichimeco, leido como ix-ixmeco: cara renegrida 
	Nixtlacuilolli =  yo cara pintada. .  
	Así, mi versión 1 en español es: 
	_Preciosa señora_ 

	_yo la siempre virgen_ 

	_ya se ha ido el sol_ 

	_la noche ha llegado_ 

	_ayayayayay_ 

	_yo cara ‘ negrida_ 

	_yo cara pintada. _ 

	__  

	Segunda versión:  

	__  

	_Preciosa señora_ 

	_tu la siempre virgen_ 

	_ya se ha ido el sol_ 

	_la noche ha llegado_ 

	_ayayayayay_ 

	_yo cara ‘ negrida_ 

	_yo cara pintada. _ 

	__  

	Observación: puede ser un texto siempre en primera persona. O bien
uno donde el que canta se dirige a la preciosa señora y luego habla
de él mismo. Ahora bien, si de quien habla el canto es de Tlazolteotl
y vemos los códices en que aparece su imágen, se observa que tiene
la cara pintada, con labios y naríz en negro. Espero que mi versión
te ayude en algo.  

	__  
	Reciban el mejor de mis saludos. 
	Tomas Amaya
-------------------------
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-------------------------
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From susana at losrancheros.org  Thu Jan 13 09:40:54 2011
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:40:54 +0100
Subject: Himno a Tlaloc
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.104054.0100.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Would anyone know where can I find the Nahuatl text of the "Himno a Tlaloc"? 
The one quoted by Sahagun.

Thank you.

Susana




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From stefanyteufel at yahoo.de  Thu Jan 13 10:44:04 2011
From: stefanyteufel at yahoo.de (Stefanie Teufel)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:44:04 +0000
Subject: WG:  Himno a Tlaloc
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.104404.0000.STEFANYTEUFEL@YAHOO.DE>

Dear Susana,

you will find the song of Tlaloc in Nahuatl:

-in Sahg?n?s Codex Florentinius, Book II "The Ceremonies". For example Anderson 
and Dibble 1981:224.

- in Sahg?n?s Historia General, Book II.?For example the edition of 
Porr?a/Garibay 1989:174

-in Sahag?n?s Primeros Memoriales, folio 274.?See for example?Sullivan.

Best
Stefanie


----- Weitergeleitete Mail ----
Von: Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>
An: Nahuat-l <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 13. Januar 2011, 10:40:54 Uhr
Betreff: [Nahuat-l] Himno a Tlaloc


Would anyone know where can I find the Nahuatl text of the "Himno a Tlaloc"? The 
one quoted by Sahagun.

Thank you.

Susana




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From susana at losrancheros.org  Thu Jan 13 14:28:56 2011
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:28:56 +0100
Subject: WG:  Himno a Tlaloc
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.152856.0100.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Thank you Stefanie. I do have Sahagun's Historia General (Consejo Nacional para la Cultura y las Artes) but it is the Spanish version of the Codice Florentino (Lopez Austin and Garcia Quintana).  There are no Nahuatl quotes.

I searched the books you suggested in "Google books" but couldn't find anything.
Would you kindly have any other suggestion?

Susana
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stefanie Teufel 
  To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org 
  Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 11:44 AM
  Subject: [Nahuat-l] WG: Himno a Tlaloc


  Dear Susana,

  you will find the song of Tlaloc in Nahuatl:

  -in Sahg?n?s Codex Florentinius, Book II "The Ceremonies". For example Anderson and Dibble 1981:224.

  - in Sahg?n?s Historia General, Book II. For example the edition of Porr?a/Garibay 1989:174

  -in Sahag?n?s Primeros Memoriales, folio 274. See for example Sullivan.

  Best
  Stefanie


  ----- Weitergeleitete Mail ----
  Von: Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>
  An: Nahuat-l <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
  Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 13. Januar 2011, 10:40:54 Uhr
  Betreff: [Nahuat-l] Himno a Tlaloc


  Would anyone know where can I find the Nahuatl text of the "Himno a Tlaloc"? The one quoted by Sahagun.

  Thank you.

  Susana




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  Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
  http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl





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From jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu  Thu Jan 13 16:30:03 2011
From: jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu (Jeanne Gillespie)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:30:03 -0600
Subject: WG: Himno a Tlaloc
In-Reply-To: <D7421A21699D4CDC81AE54CF42E6D981@susana>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.103003.0600.JEANNE.GILLESPIE@USM.EDU>

You can get Brinton's Nahuatl transcription from the Project Gutenberg's
copy of Reg Veda Americana (1890).  Here is a link:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14993/14993-h/14993-h.htm#iii
and the copy with Brinton's translation and notes:
III. Tlalloc icuic.

   1. Ahuia Mexico teutlaneuiloc amapanitla anauhcampa, ye moquetzquetl,
   aoyequene y chocaya.
   2. Ahuia anneuaya niyocoloc, annoteua eztlamiyaual, aylhui?olla nic
   yauicaya teutiualcoya.
   3. Ahuia annotequiua naualpilli aquitlanella motonacayouh tic yachiuh
   quitla catlachtoquetl, ?an mitziyapinauia.
   4. Ahuia cana catella nechyapinauia anechyaca uelmatia, anotata yn
   oquacuillo ocelocoatl aya.
   5. Ahuia tlallocana, xiuacalco aya quizqui aquamotla, acatonalaya.
   6. Ahuia xiyanouia, nahuia xiyamotecaya ay poyauhtla, ayauh chicauaztica,
   ayauicalo tlallocanaya.
   7. Aua nacha tozcuecuexi niyayalizqui aya y chocaya.
   8. Ahuia queyamica xinechiuaya, temoquetl aitlatol, aniquiya ilhuiquetl,
   tetzauhpilla niyayalizqui aya y chocaya.
   9. Ahuia nauhxiuhticaya itopanecauiloc ayoc ynomatia, ay motlapoalli, aya
   ximocaya ye quetzalcalla nepanauia ay yaxcana teizcaltequetl.
   10. Ahuia xiyanouia, ahuia xiyamotequaya ay poyauhtla, ayauh
   chicauaztlica ayauicallo tlalloca.

*Var.* 1. Amopanitl.
Gloss.

   1. Auia Mexico teutlanauiloc, *q.n.*, yn Mexico onetlanauiloc in tlaloc.
   Amapanitl annauhcampa ye moquetzquetl, *q.n.*, amapanitl nauhcampa
   omoquequetz. Aoyeque naichocaya, *id est*, itlaocuyaya.
   2. Auia anneuaya niyocoloc, *q.n.*, ynehuatl ni tlalloc oniyocoloc.
   Annoteua eztlamiyaual, *q.n.*, noteu eztlamiyaualtitiuh. Aylhui?olla, *
   q.n.*, yn umpa ilhui?ololo. Inic yauicaya teuitualcoya, *q.n.* in
   teuitualoc.
   3. Auia annotequiua naualpilli, *q.n.* in tinoteuh naualpilli, *i.e.*,
   tlalloc. Aquitlanella motonacayouh, *q.n.*, ca nelli teuatl ticmochiuilia
   in motonacayouh. Catlachtoquetl, *q.n.*, teuatl ticmochiuilia auh in
   aquin timitzpinauia.
   4. Ahuia cana catella nechyapinauia, *q.n.*, catel nechpinauia ca
   monechuelmati. Annotata ynoquacuillo ocelocoatl aya, *q.n.*, yn notaua
   ioan yna quacuiloa yn oceloquacuili.
   5. Ahuia tlallocana xiuacalco, *q.n.*, in tlalocan xiuhcalco, *id est*,
   acxoyacalco. Ayaquizqui, *q.n.*, umpa ualquizque. Aquamotla acatonalaya,
   *q.n.*, y notauan yn oquacuiloan acatonal.
   6. Ahuia xicanouia nauia xiyamotecaya, *q.n.*, xiuian ximotecati. Ay
   poyauhtlan, *q.n.*, in umpa poyauhtlan tepeticpac. Ayauh chicauaztica
   ayauicalo tlalocana, *q.n.*, ayauh chicauaztica in auicalo tlalocan.
   7. Aua nach tozcuecuexi niyayalizqui, *q.n.*, y nach tozcuecuex y ye
   niauh niman ye choca.
   8. Ahuia queyamica xinechiuaya, *q.n.*, quenamican y ya niauh a?o
   anechtemozque. Aniquiya ilhuiquetl tetzapilla niyayalizqui ayaichocaya, *
   q.n.*, onquilhui yn tetzapilli ye niyauh niman ye choca.
   9. Ahuia nauhxiuhticaya nitopanecauiloc, *q.n.*, nauhxiuhtica in
   topanecauiloz, *id est*, in tepan mochiuaz. Ayoc inomatia ay motlapoalli,
   *q.n.*, aocmo nomatia iniquin motlapoalpan. Ca oximoac ye quetzalcalla
   nepanauia, *q.n.*, ye qualcan ye netlamachtiloyan ynemca. Ay yaxcana
   teizcaltiquetl, *q.n.*, iniaxca inic oteizcalli.
   10. Ahuia xiyanouia, *q.n.*, xiuia. Auia xiya motecaya ay poyauhtla, *
   q.n.*, ximotecati in umpa poyauhtla. Ayauh chicauaztica auicallo
   tlalocan, *q.n.*, ayauh chicauaztica in auicallo in umpa tlallocan.

The Hymn of Tlaloc.

   1. In Mexico the god appears; thy banner is unfolded in all directions,
   and no one weeps.
   2. I, the god, have returned again, I have turned again to the place of
   abundance of blood-sacrifices; there when the day grows old, I am beheld
   as a god.
   3. Thy work is that of a noble magician; truly thou hast made thyself to
   be of our flesh; thou hast made thyself, and who dare affront thee?
   4. Truly he who affronts me does not find himself well with me; my
   fathers took by the head the tigers and the serpents.
   5. In Tlalocan, in the verdant house, they play at ball, they cast the
   reeds.
   6. Go forth, go forth to where the clouds are spread abundantly, where
   the thick mist makes the cloudy house of Tlaloc.
   7. There with strong voice I rise up and cry aloud.
   8. Go ye forth to seek me, seek for the words which I have said, as I
   rise, a terrible one, and cry aloud.
   9. After four years they shall go forth, not to be known, not to be
   numbered, they shall descend to the beautiful house, to unite together and
   know the doctrine.
   10. Go forth, go forth to where the clouds are spread abundantly, where
   the thick mist makes the cloudy house of Tlaloc.

 Notes.

The god Tlaloc shared with Huitzilopochtli the highest place in the Mexican
Pantheon. He was the deity who presided over the waters, the rains, the
thunder and the lightning. The annual festival in his honor took place about
the time of corn-planting, and was intended to secure his favor for this
all-important crop. Its details are described at great length by Diego Duran,
*Historia de Nueva Espa?a*, cap. 86, and Sahagun, *Historia*, Lib. II., cap.
25, and elsewhere. His name is derived from *tlalli*, earth. *Tlalocan*,
referred to in v. 5, ?the place of Tlaloc,? was the name of a mountain east
of Tenochtitlan, where the festival of the god was celebrated; but it had
also a mythical meaning, equivalent to ?the earthly Paradise,? the abode of
happy souls.

It will be observed that v. 10 is a repetition of v. 6. The word
*ayauicalo*refers to the
*ayauhcalli*, ?house of mist,? the home of the rain god, which Sahagun
informs us was represented at the annual festival by four small buildings
near the water?s edge, carefully disposed to face the four cardinal points
of the compass (Sahagun, *ubi supra*).

In v. 8 the expression *tetzauhpilli* (*tetzauhqui*, to frighten) may be
explained by the figure of Tlaloc, whose statue, says Duran, was that of *un
espantable monstruo, la cara muy fea* (*ibid.*).

The compound in v. 10, *nauhxiuhtica*, ?after four years,? appears to refer
to the souls of the departed brave ones, who, according to Aztec mythology,
passed to the heaven for four years and after that returned to the
terrestrial Paradise,?the palace of Tlaloc. (See my paper, *The Journey of
the Soul*, in *Proceedings of the Numismatic and Antiquarian Society of
Philadelphia, 1883*.)


On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 8:28 AM, Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>wrote:

>  Thank you Stefanie. I do have Sahagun's Historia General (Consejo
> Nacional para la Cultura y las Artes) but it is the Spanish version of the
> Codice Florentino (Lopez Austin and Garcia Quintana).  There are no Nahuatl
> quotes.
>
> I searched the books you suggested in "Google books" but couldn't find
> anything.
> Would you kindly have any other suggestion?
>
> Susana
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Stefanie Teufel <stefanyteufel at yahoo.de>
> *To:* nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 13, 2011 11:44 AM
> *Subject:* [Nahuat-l] WG: Himno a Tlaloc
>
>  Dear Susana,
>
> you will find the song of Tlaloc in Nahuatl:
>
> -in Sahg?n?s Codex Florentinius, Book II "The Ceremonies". For example
> Anderson and Dibble 1981:224.
>
> - in Sahg?n?s Historia General, Book II. For example the edition of
> Porr?a/Garibay 1989:174
>
> -in Sahag?n?s Primeros Memoriales, folio 274. See for example Sullivan.
>
> Best
> Stefanie
>
> ----- Weitergeleitete Mail ----
> *Von:* Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>
> *An:* Nahuat-l <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, den 13. Januar 2011, 10:40:54 Uhr
> *Betreff:* [Nahuat-l] Himno a Tlaloc
>
>
> Would anyone know where can I find the Nahuatl text of the "Himno a
> Tlaloc"? The one quoted by Sahagun.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Susana
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>  <http://www.bandoo.com/wp/oe.php?plg=OE&ad2=146&&elm=sign>
>
>


-- 
Jeanne L. Gillespie, Ph.D.
Associate Dean and Director of Interdisciplinary Studies
College of Arts and Letters
The University of Southern Mississippi

601-266-4315
jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Jan 13 18:17:11 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:17:11 -0500
Subject: WG: Himno a Tlaloc
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=f8AGCGvrKr=3tdYewbXvDkc5nxfU+S9zSq84K@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.131711.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Thank you, and to others thank you, for these missives.

Tlaloc is an interesting name. tlal-oc

In the Algonquian language known as Miami-Illinois there are two words 
for 'snow', /manetwa/ and /waapikoona/. The first, deriving from 
/manetoowa/ 'spirit, God', refers to falling snow; the second, deriving 
from Proto-Algonquian */wa:p/ 'white' and /ko:na/ 'snow' is what's on 
the ground, lying on the Earth.

Michael


Quoting Jeanne Gillespie <jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu>:

> You can get Brinton's Nahuatl transcription from the Project Gutenberg's
> copy of Reg Veda Americana (1890).  Here is a link:
> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14993/14993-h/14993-h.htm#iii
> and the copy with Brinton's translation and notes:
> III. Tlalloc icuic.
>
>   1. Ahuia Mexico teutlaneuiloc amapanitla anauhcampa, ye moquetzquetl,
>   aoyequene y chocaya.
>   2. Ahuia anneuaya niyocoloc, annoteua eztlamiyaual, aylhui?olla nic
>   yauicaya teutiualcoya.
>   3. Ahuia annotequiua naualpilli aquitlanella motonacayouh tic yachiuh
>   quitla catlachtoquetl, ?an mitziyapinauia.
>   4. Ahuia cana catella nechyapinauia anechyaca uelmatia, anotata yn
>   oquacuillo ocelocoatl aya.
>   5. Ahuia tlallocana, xiuacalco aya quizqui aquamotla, acatonalaya.
>   6. Ahuia xiyanouia, nahuia xiyamotecaya ay poyauhtla, ayauh chicauaztica,
>   ayauicalo tlallocanaya.
>   7. Aua nacha tozcuecuexi niyayalizqui aya y chocaya.
>   8. Ahuia queyamica xinechiuaya, temoquetl aitlatol, aniquiya ilhuiquetl,
>   tetzauhpilla niyayalizqui aya y chocaya.
>   9. Ahuia nauhxiuhticaya itopanecauiloc ayoc ynomatia, ay motlapoalli, aya
>   ximocaya ye quetzalcalla nepanauia ay yaxcana teizcaltequetl.
>   10. Ahuia xiyanouia, ahuia xiyamotequaya ay poyauhtla, ayauh
>   chicauaztlica ayauicallo tlalloca.
>
> *Var.* 1. Amopanitl.
> Gloss.
>
>   1. Auia Mexico teutlanauiloc, *q.n.*, yn Mexico onetlanauiloc in tlaloc.
>   Amapanitl annauhcampa ye moquetzquetl, *q.n.*, amapanitl nauhcampa
>   omoquequetz. Aoyeque naichocaya, *id est*, itlaocuyaya.
>   2. Auia anneuaya niyocoloc, *q.n.*, ynehuatl ni tlalloc oniyocoloc.
>   Annoteua eztlamiyaual, *q.n.*, noteu eztlamiyaualtitiuh. Aylhui?olla, *
>   q.n.*, yn umpa ilhui?ololo. Inic yauicaya teuitualcoya, *q.n.* in
>   teuitualoc.
>   3. Auia annotequiua naualpilli, *q.n.* in tinoteuh naualpilli, *i.e.*,
>   tlalloc. Aquitlanella motonacayouh, *q.n.*, ca nelli teuatl ticmochiuilia
>   in motonacayouh. Catlachtoquetl, *q.n.*, teuatl ticmochiuilia auh in
>   aquin timitzpinauia.
>   4. Ahuia cana catella nechyapinauia, *q.n.*, catel nechpinauia ca
>   monechuelmati. Annotata ynoquacuillo ocelocoatl aya, *q.n.*, yn notaua
>   ioan yna quacuiloa yn oceloquacuili.
>   5. Ahuia tlallocana xiuacalco, *q.n.*, in tlalocan xiuhcalco, *id est*,
>   acxoyacalco. Ayaquizqui, *q.n.*, umpa ualquizque. Aquamotla acatonalaya,
>   *q.n.*, y notauan yn oquacuiloan acatonal.
>   6. Ahuia xicanouia nauia xiyamotecaya, *q.n.*, xiuian ximotecati. Ay
>   poyauhtlan, *q.n.*, in umpa poyauhtlan tepeticpac. Ayauh chicauaztica
>   ayauicalo tlalocana, *q.n.*, ayauh chicauaztica in auicalo tlalocan.
>   7. Aua nach tozcuecuexi niyayalizqui, *q.n.*, y nach tozcuecuex y ye
>   niauh niman ye choca.
>   8. Ahuia queyamica xinechiuaya, *q.n.*, quenamican y ya niauh a?o
>   anechtemozque. Aniquiya ilhuiquetl tetzapilla niyayalizqui ayaichocaya, *
>   q.n.*, onquilhui yn tetzapilli ye niyauh niman ye choca.
>   9. Ahuia nauhxiuhticaya nitopanecauiloc, *q.n.*, nauhxiuhtica in
>   topanecauiloz, *id est*, in tepan mochiuaz. Ayoc inomatia ay motlapoalli,
>   *q.n.*, aocmo nomatia iniquin motlapoalpan. Ca oximoac ye quetzalcalla
>   nepanauia, *q.n.*, ye qualcan ye netlamachtiloyan ynemca. Ay yaxcana
>   teizcaltiquetl, *q.n.*, iniaxca inic oteizcalli.
>   10. Ahuia xiyanouia, *q.n.*, xiuia. Auia xiya motecaya ay poyauhtla, *
>   q.n.*, ximotecati in umpa poyauhtla. Ayauh chicauaztica auicallo
>   tlalocan, *q.n.*, ayauh chicauaztica in auicallo in umpa tlallocan.
>
> The Hymn of Tlaloc.
>
>   1. In Mexico the god appears; thy banner is unfolded in all directions,
>   and no one weeps.
>   2. I, the god, have returned again, I have turned again to the place of
>   abundance of blood-sacrifices; there when the day grows old, I am beheld
>   as a god.
>   3. Thy work is that of a noble magician; truly thou hast made thyself to
>   be of our flesh; thou hast made thyself, and who dare affront thee?
>   4. Truly he who affronts me does not find himself well with me; my
>   fathers took by the head the tigers and the serpents.
>   5. In Tlalocan, in the verdant house, they play at ball, they cast the
>   reeds.
>   6. Go forth, go forth to where the clouds are spread abundantly, where
>   the thick mist makes the cloudy house of Tlaloc.
>   7. There with strong voice I rise up and cry aloud.
>   8. Go ye forth to seek me, seek for the words which I have said, as I
>   rise, a terrible one, and cry aloud.
>   9. After four years they shall go forth, not to be known, not to be
>   numbered, they shall descend to the beautiful house, to unite together and
>   know the doctrine.
>   10. Go forth, go forth to where the clouds are spread abundantly, where
>   the thick mist makes the cloudy house of Tlaloc.
>
> Notes.
>
> The god Tlaloc shared with Huitzilopochtli the highest place in the Mexican
> Pantheon. He was the deity who presided over the waters, the rains, the
> thunder and the lightning. The annual festival in his honor took place about
> the time of corn-planting, and was intended to secure his favor for this
> all-important crop. Its details are described at great length by Diego Duran,
> *Historia de Nueva Espa?a*, cap. 86, and Sahagun, *Historia*, Lib. II., cap.
> 25, and elsewhere. His name is derived from *tlalli*, earth. *Tlalocan*,
> referred to in v. 5, ?the place of Tlaloc,? was the name of a mountain east
> of Tenochtitlan, where the festival of the god was celebrated; but it had
> also a mythical meaning, equivalent to ?the earthly Paradise,? the abode of
> happy souls.
>
> It will be observed that v. 10 is a repetition of v. 6. The word
> *ayauicalo*refers to the
> *ayauhcalli*, ?house of mist,? the home of the rain god, which Sahagun
> informs us was represented at the annual festival by four small buildings
> near the water?s edge, carefully disposed to face the four cardinal points
> of the compass (Sahagun, *ubi supra*).
>
> In v. 8 the expression *tetzauhpilli* (*tetzauhqui*, to frighten) may be
> explained by the figure of Tlaloc, whose statue, says Duran, was that of *un
> espantable monstruo, la cara muy fea* (*ibid.*).
>
> The compound in v. 10, *nauhxiuhtica*, ?after four years,? appears to refer
> to the souls of the departed brave ones, who, according to Aztec mythology,
> passed to the heaven for four years and after that returned to the
> terrestrial Paradise,?the palace of Tlaloc. (See my paper, *The Journey of
> the Soul*, in *Proceedings of the Numismatic and Antiquarian Society of
> Philadelphia, 1883*.)
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 8:28 AM, Susana Moraleda
> <susana at losrancheros.org>wrote:
>
>>  Thank you Stefanie. I do have Sahagun's Historia General (Consejo
>> Nacional para la Cultura y las Artes) but it is the Spanish version of the
>> Codice Florentino (Lopez Austin and Garcia Quintana).  There are no Nahuatl
>> quotes.
>>
>> I searched the books you suggested in "Google books" but couldn't find
>> anything.
>> Would you kindly have any other suggestion?
>>
>> Susana
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Stefanie Teufel <stefanyteufel at yahoo.de>
>> *To:* nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 13, 2011 11:44 AM
>> *Subject:* [Nahuat-l] WG: Himno a Tlaloc
>>
>>  Dear Susana,
>>
>> you will find the song of Tlaloc in Nahuatl:
>>
>> -in Sahg?n?s Codex Florentinius, Book II "The Ceremonies". For example
>> Anderson and Dibble 1981:224.
>>
>> - in Sahg?n?s Historia General, Book II. For example the edition of
>> Porr?a/Garibay 1989:174
>>
>> -in Sahag?n?s Primeros Memoriales, folio 274. See for example Sullivan.
>>
>> Best
>> Stefanie
>>
>> ----- Weitergeleitete Mail ----
>> *Von:* Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>
>> *An:* Nahuat-l <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, den 13. Januar 2011, 10:40:54 Uhr
>> *Betreff:* [Nahuat-l] Himno a Tlaloc
>>
>>
>> Would anyone know where can I find the Nahuatl text of the "Himno a
>> Tlaloc"? The one quoted by Sahagun.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Susana
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>>  <http://www.bandoo.com/wp/oe.php?plg=OE&ad2=146&&elm=sign>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jeanne L. Gillespie, Ph.D.
> Associate Dean and Director of Interdisciplinary Studies
> College of Arts and Letters
> The University of Southern Mississippi
>
> 601-266-4315
> jeanne.gillespie at usm.edu
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From cuecuex at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 05:17:58 2011
From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 23:17:58 -0600
Subject: WG :Himno a Tlaloc
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.231758.0600.CUECUEX@GMAIL.COM>

Hola Susana y demas foristas

Si quieres una paleografia del nahuatl, su traducci?n al espa?ol y
comentarios sobre el contenido de la traducci?n ver Veinte Himnos Sacros de
los Nahuas Angel Ma Garibay UNAM

Si quieres s?lo la traduci?n del nahuatl al espa?ol ver la Historia General
de las Cosas de la Nueva Espa?a de Editorial Porrua el texto traducido por
Garibay de los himnos sacros viene como uno de sus apendices

Si quieres ver otra versi?n de paleografia y de traducci?n al espa?ol en una
edici?n mas barata ( 60 devaluados pesitos menos de cinco dolares o tres
euros) entonces compra Edicion Especial N? 30 de la Revista de Arqueologia
Mexicana dedicado a la Religi?n Mexica.

Ah? viene la versi?n nahuatl y la versi?n al espa?ol de los cantos sacros
hecha por Rafael Tena un investigador del INAH .

Si tu logras obtener las distintas versiones que te han se?alado veras que
siendo similares no son iguales.

Ah? radica el "arte" primero de una buena paleograf?a y luego de su
correspondiente y certera traducci?n. Ah? es donde se aprecia quien en este
campo tiene el don de mascar clavos siendo chimuelo.

En algunos casos veras que las diferencias en las versiones paleografiadas y
traducidas son muy significativas y esto repercute en su interpretaci?n y en
su utilizaci?n posterior.

No he estudiado este himno de Tlaloc y no se si sea el caso que s? se
presenta en otros por ejemplo en el himno de Otontecutli o en el de Atlahua,
el de Amimitl o en los de Huitzilopochtli.

Roberto Romero Gutierrez
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From cuecuex at gmail.com  Mon Jan 17 06:13:24 2011
From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 00:13:24 -0600
Subject: Traducci=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n_?= de un son cazcan
Message-ID: <MON.17.JAN.2011.001324.0600.CUECUEX@GMAIL.COM>

En su libro Magia y Religion, Gonzalo Aguirre Beltr?n coloca la copia de un
"son huaxteco" [sic en el documento colonial ]  que cantaba una india
llamada Francis Rodr?guez  apodada o llamada la Barbola que viv?a en las las
cercan?as de Zacatecas y que era hablante de un idioma caxcan o nahuatl de
la regi?n.

?ste "son" que  cantaba ta?iendo una guitarra la Barbola confes? que lo
aprendi? de otra india mexicana.

La Barbola fue presa por el "Santo Oficio" por buscar adivinar con jicara de
agua, copos de algod?n,  flecha e ingest?n de peyote si su cliente Mariana
Costilla hab?a de juntarse con Don Melchor.

La propuesta de version nahuatl y castellano que Aguirre  Beltran da de ?ste
canto dice as?

Tlazolcihuapilli                                    Mujer divina y hechicera
cemicac inichpochlti                           v?rgen para siempre jam?s
Yaoquil itonatiuh                                 espiga guerrera del sol
yahuallan Yohualli                               que presides el cerco de la
noche
Ahuayahuayan                                    donde es dios el lanuginoso
[sic ??] cactus
can ichichimeco                                  en el pa?s de los
chichimecas
Nixtlacuilolli                                        T?, la del rostro
pintado de blanco !


Me parece que la traducci?n de Aguirre tiene varios errores Yo creo que
ser?a la siguiente

Tlazolcihuapilli                                    Noble Mujer preciosa
 cemicac inichpochli                           siempre virgen
Yaoquil itonatiuh                                 jefa guerrera del sol
yahuallan Yohualli                               redondo de la noche
Ahuayahuayan                                    Ahuaya [o]huaya   [expresion
de j?bilo]
can ichichimeco                                  en el lugar de los
chichimecas
Nixtlacuilolli                                         flor del desierto

Pongo a su verdadero conocimiento del nahuatl esta traducci?n

Esperando y agradeciendo de antemano todas las cr?ticas y observaciones as?
como el tiempo.que se tomen para ello

Roberto Romero Gutierrez
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From vazquezdiaz at aol.com  Thu Jan 13 20:16:39 2011
From: vazquezdiaz at aol.com (vazquezdiaz at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:16:39 -0500
Subject: tlajomulco & Tlalcosahua
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2011.151639.0500.>




De un punto de vista de l etimologia, que tienen en comun las palabras tlajomulco y tlacosahua?
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From t_amaya at megared.net.mx  Tue Jan 18 03:45:12 2011
From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amaya)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:45:12 -0600
Subject: WG :Himno a Tlaloc
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=G7M=Me4wA2rnNBqVFMLcj0SZP-5T-mc4EfMAK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JAN.2011.214512.0600.TAMAYA@MEGARED.NET.MX>

Hola Roberto ?!!

 

Gracias por el tip de la revista. La voy a conseguir. Tengo para m? que
Rafael Tena es un excelente traductor del nahuatlahtolli al espa?ol. 

 

Saludos. 

 

Tomas Amaya

 

 

 

De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de roberto romero
Enviado el: Jueves, 13 de Enero de 2011 11:18 p.m.
Para: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Nahuat-l] WG :Himno a Tlaloc

 


Hola Susana y demas foristas

Si quieres una paleografia del nahuatl, su traducci?n al espa?ol y
comentarios sobre el contenido de la traducci?n ver Veinte Himnos Sacros de
los Nahuas Angel Ma Garibay UNAM 

Si quieres s?lo la traduci?n del nahuatl al espa?ol ver la Historia General
de las Cosas de la Nueva Espa?a de Editorial Porrua el texto traducido por
Garibay de los himnos sacros viene como uno de sus apendices 

Si quieres ver otra versi?n de paleografia y de traducci?n al espa?ol en una
edici?n mas barata ( 60 devaluados pesitos menos de cinco dolares o tres
euros) entonces compra Edicion Especial N? 30 de la Revista de Arqueologia
Mexicana dedicado a la Religi?n Mexica.

Ah? viene la versi?n nahuatl y la versi?n al espa?ol de los cantos sacros
hecha por Rafael Tena un investigador del INAH .

Si tu logras obtener las distintas versiones que te han se?alado veras que
siendo similares no son iguales.

 

Ah? radica el "arte" primero de una buena paleograf?a y luego de su
correspondiente y certera traducci?n. Ah? es donde se aprecia quien en este
campo tiene el don de mascar clavos siendo chimuelo.


En algunos casos veras que las diferencias en las versiones paleografiadas y
traducidas son muy significativas y esto repercute en su interpretaci?n y en
su utilizaci?n posterior.

No he estudiado este himno de Tlaloc y no se si sea el caso que s? se
presenta en otros por ejemplo en el himno de Otontecutli o en el de Atlahua,
el de Amimitl o en los de Huitzilopochtli.

Roberto Romero Gutierrez 

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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Tue Jan 18 13:18:50 2011
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 08:18:50 -0500
Subject: Moteuctzoma's headress to return to Mexico
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.081850.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

 From Art Daily:
http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=44251


MEXICO CITY.- Negotiations conducted for 3 years by the Mexican Ministry of 
Foreign Affairs (SRE) and the National Institute of Anthropology and History 
(INAH) before the Austrian Government, are about to reach a historical agreement 
that would bring Moctezuma?s Headdress to Mexican territory.

Friendly relations sustained between the Mexican and Austrian Governments would 
achieve a good-will exchange that would crystallize the dream of millions of 
Mexicans of admiring the feather headdress attributed to the last Mexica 
tlatoani (ruler).

This is an unprecedented collaboration project between museums headed towards a 
better understanding of the headdress, which efforts have been intensified 
during the administration of President Felipe Calderon.

In February 2010 was constituted a bi-national commission in charge of 
conducting scientific analysis of the piece to determine its physical state and 
identify the necessary restoration processes that would allow its eventual 
transport and exhibition in our country. When the project ends, a unique 
publication will be produced to show the artistic, cultural and historical value 
of the feather headgear.

Mexico and Austria acknowledge the Prehispanic piece as common cultural 
heritage, and, it that spirit, assume the responsibility.

SRE and INAH conduct conversations with authorities of the Austrian Ministries 
of Foreign Affairs, Culture and Education, the Museum of Ethnology and the 
Museum of Arts History (Kunsthistorisches Museum) in Vienna, to which the 
Ethnology Museum belongs, to examine the legal and technical terms in which the 
headdress can be transported to Mexico on loan. In reciprocity, Mexican 
authorities will study the possibility of a piece with significance for Austria, 
safeguarded in a Mexican museum, being sent to that country, also on loan.

SRE and INAH will keep the public informed regarding the development of this 
important project that has the objective of achieving that Mexicans can admire 
the Moctezuma's Headdress, piece of great importance due to its symbolic and 
historical value, attending a long-time concern thanks to cooperation between 
both countries.

-- 
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY  13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496

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From vazquezdiaz at aol.com  Tue Jan 18 16:00:24 2011
From: vazquezdiaz at aol.com (vazquezdiaz at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 11:00:24 -0500
Subject: tlal co sahua ---- tla jo mul co and tla za zal ca
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.110024.0500.>




Please take the time to explain the significance, relationship or etymology of these three places.
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From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com  Tue Jan 18 19:49:30 2011
From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:49:30 +0000
Subject: the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.194930.0000.IAN.MURSELL@BTINTERNET.COM>

Dear Listeros,

We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received
concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation
account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the
evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational
website.  You can see the end result here -

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47

It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out
there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In
any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to
read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and
to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up
before as a thread)...

Best wishes,

Ian

Ian Mursell

MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University

Director, 'Mexicolore'
28 Warriner Gardens
London SW11 4EB, U.K.
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
www.aztecs.org
Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
info at mexicolore.co.uk

1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over
2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching
resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and
much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'
(British Museum Education Service)


 


_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Jan 18 20:22:00 2011
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:22:00 -0500
Subject: the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
In-Reply-To: <C95B9F4A.19C4E%Ian.Mursell@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.152200.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

This looks interesting, Ian. Thanks for sending it. I will definitely 
enjoy taking a look.

Michael

Also, since this is purely convenient--je m'excuse-- here's a brief 
message for another listero:

Papalohtzin,

Ahmo onimitzilnamic. iciuhca nimitzihcuiloz.

Tlatziuqui

%-)


Quoting Ian Mursell <Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com>:

> Dear Listeros,
>
> We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received
> concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation
> account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the
> evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational
> website.  You can see the end result here -
>
> http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47
>
> It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out
> there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In
> any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to
> read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and
> to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up
> before as a thread)...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ian
>
> Ian Mursell
>
> MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University
>
> Director, 'Mexicolore'
> 28 Warriner Gardens
> London SW11 4EB, U.K.
> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
> www.aztecs.org
> Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
> info at mexicolore.co.uk
>
> 1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over
> 2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching
> resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and
> much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'
> (British Museum Education Service)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From kay.a.read at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 22:54:26 2011
From: kay.a.read at gmail.com (Kay Read)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:54:26 -0600
Subject: the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
In-Reply-To: <C95B9F4A.19C4E%Ian.Mursell@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.165426.0600.KAY.A.READ@GMAIL.COM>

Hello,

I have used a delightful article in my 100-level undergraduate class that
treats this image as an important myth and traces its roots from whatever
beginnings we know and many of its changes all the way to the present.  It
is very accessible and is useful because it gets away from some idea of
for-all-time "truth" about these images and stories that change so naturally
anyway.  It is:

Alfred Lopez-Austin
"The Miracle of the Eagle and the Cactus"

In *The Rabbit on the Face of the Moon:  Mythology in the Mesoamerican
Tradition.*  Translated by Bernard Ortiz de Montellano and Thelma Ortiz de
Montellano, UT:  University of Utah Press, 1999:  51-60

Hope this helps,

Kay Read

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Ian Mursell <Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com>wrote:

> Dear Listeros,
>
> We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received
> concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation
> account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the
> evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational
> website.  You can see the end result here -
>
> http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47
>
> It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out
> there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.
>  In
> any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to
> read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question
> and
> to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up
> before as a thread)...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ian
>
> Ian Mursell
>
> MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University
>
> Director, 'Mexicolore'
> 28 Warriner Gardens
> London SW11 4EB, U.K.
> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
> www.aztecs.org
> Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
> info at mexicolore.co.uk
>
> 1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in
> over
> 2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching
> resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and
> much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'
> (British Museum Education Service)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Jan 19 01:40:41 2011
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:40:41 -0600
Subject: the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
In-Reply-To: <C95B9F4A.19C4E%Ian.Mursell@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.194041.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Dear Ian:

 

The page looks good. I think the word tlachinolli can be translated more
precisely than ?a burned thing?. The latter phrase is found a lot in
Mesoamericanist literature. It looks like it was taken from Alonso de
Molina?s (1571) gloss ?Tlachinolli. cosa quemada assi, o chamuscada.? The
word ?assi? is important because Molina is referring to the previous entry,
?Tlachinoliztli. el acto de quemar los campos;? before that is ?Tlachinoa.
ni. quemar los campos o montes. Pr. onitlachino.? Molina also registers the
verb without fusing the object prefix tla- to the root: ?chinoa. nitla.
quemar los campos. preteri. onitlachino.?

 

Tlachinolli, then, is a noun derived from the verb chinoa, ?to burn the
cultivated field or bush,? meaning ?burnt field,? or ?burnt bush? (?bush? is
used here to mean uncultivated land with mixed vegetation, which seems to be
what Molina means here by ?montes?; an alternative translation would be
?hills? or ?mountains?). It works like this:

 

-          verb: chinoa:, ?to burn the field/bush/hill;?

-          passive form: tlachinolo: (tla + (chinoa - a) + lo:), ?some
field/bush/hill is burned;?

-          deverbal noun derived from the passive form: tlachinolli (tla +
(chinoa: - a) + (lo: - o:) + li, ?some burnt field/bush/hill.?

 

(I restored the long vowels in the latter analysis, using colons, for the
sake of precision.)

 

The pictorial signs associated with the Nahuatl doublet atl tlachinolli,
found on pre-Hispanic sculptures like the Teocalli de la Guerra Sagrada and
the Huehuetl de Malinalco, as well as several pictorial manuscripts from the
early colonial period, communicate the idea of a conflagration in cultivated
fields. Present in most of these sign clusters, in combination with igneous
signs (usually a butterfly-like flame and bands of red-orange fire, is the
combination of curved elements like the letter ?c? with rows of dots, on a
grey background, found in other signs that express the idea of cultivated
fields. An example of the latter is the Xochimilco toponymic sign on the
Piedra de T?zoc and the Piedra del ex Arzobispado, and its counterpart in
the Codex Mendoza, in all of which a rectangle with these elements appears
under flower signs (Xochitl + (milli - li) + co, ?in the cultivated fields
of flowers?). So I think we can discard ?bush? and ?hill? and assume the
Nahuas were thinking ?cultivated field (or fields).?

 

Sahag?n explains the metaphorical meaning of the doublet (difrasismo) atl
tlachinolli in book 6, chapter 43 of the Florentine Codex. The Nahuatl texts
reads: ?Teuatl, tlachinolli. Inin tla / tolli, itechpa mitoaia: in uei iao /
oiotl muchioaia, ano?o uei coco / liztli: mitoaia. Otopan muchiuh, / ano?o
otopan onquiz: iniuhqui / teuatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: / cocoliztli,
ano?o uel iehoatl in / iaoiotl.? This can be translated literally as: ?The
divine water, the burnt fields. With this saying it was said: the great war
was done, or the great sickness. It was said: over us was done, or over us
flowed, something like the divine water, the burnt fields. It means: the
sickness or this war.? Sahag?n?s Spanish translation, less literal than
mine, is close in meaning: ?Quiere dezir esta letra. El mar / o la
chamusquina vino sobre noso / tros o paso sobre nosotros. Por meta / phora
se dize: de la pestilencia o / guerra que quando se acaba dizen /
otonpanquiz inteuatl in tlachinolli. / Paso sobre nosotros la mar y el
fuego.?

 

I hope this helps clarify the meaning of atl tlachinolli.

 

Saludos desde Guanajuato,

 

David

 

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de Ian Mursell
Enviado el: martes, 18 de enero de 2011 13:50
Para: Nahuat-l ((messages)); Aztlan
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare -
yes, but the snake...?

 

Dear Listeros,

 

We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received

concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation

account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the

evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational

website.  You can see the end result here -

 

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47

 

It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out

there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In

any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to

read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and

to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up

before as a thread)...

 

Best wishes,

 

Ian

 

Ian Mursell

 

MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University

 

Director, 'Mexicolore'

28 Warriner Gardens

London SW11 4EB, U.K.

Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577

Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173

www.aztecs.org

Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com

info at mexicolore.co.uk

 

1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over

2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching

resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and

much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'

(British Museum Education Service)

 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

Nahuatl mailing list

Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Jan 19 01:50:21 2011
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:50:21 -0600
Subject: RV:  the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2011.195021.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

[My last post slipped out of my hands with a few errata. They are corrected
here.]

 

**********************************************************

 

Dear Ian:

 

The page looks good. I think the word tlachinolli can be translated more
precisely than ?a burned thing?. The latter phrase is found a lot in
Mesoamericanist literature. It looks like it was taken from Alonso de
Molina?s (1571) gloss ?Tlachinolli. cosa quemada assi, o chamuscada.? The
word ?assi? is important because Molina is referring to the previous entry,
?Tlachinoliztli. el acto de quemar los campos;? before that is ?Tlachinoa.
ni. quemar los campos o montes. Pr. onitlachino.? Molina also registers the
verb without fusing the object prefix tla- to the root: ?chinoa. nitla.
quemar los campos. preteri. onitlachino.?

 

Tlachinolli, then, is a noun derived from the verb chinoa, ?to burn the
cultivated field or bush,? meaning ?burnt field,? or ?burnt bush? (?bush? is
used here to mean uncultivated land with mixed vegetation, which seems to be
what Molina means here by ?montes?; an alternative translation would be
?hills? or ?mountains?). It works like this:

 

-          verb: chinoa:, ?to burn the field/bush/hill;?

-          passive form: tlachinolo: (tla + (chinoa: - a:) + lo:), ?some
field/bush/hill is burned;?

-          deverbal noun derived from the passive form: tlachinolli (tla +
(chinoa: - a:) + (lo: - o:) + li, ?some burnt field/bush/hill.?

 

(I restored the long vowels in the latter analysis, using colons, for the
sake of precision.)

 

The pictorial signs associated with the Nahuatl doublet atl tlachinolli,
found on pre-Hispanic sculptures like the Teocalli de la Guerra Sagrada and
the Huehuetl de Malinalco, as well as several pictorial manuscripts from the
early colonial period, communicate the idea of a conflagration in cultivated
fields. Present in most of these sign clusters, in combination with igneous
signs (usually a butterfly-like flame and bands of red-orange fire, is the
combination of curved elements like the letter ?c? with rows of dots, on a
grey background, found in other signs that express the idea of cultivated
fields). An example of the latter is the Xochimilco toponymic sign on the
Piedra de T?zoc and the Piedra del ex Arzobispado, and its counterpart in
the Codex Mendoza, in all of which a rectangle with these elements appears
under flower signs ((xochitl - tl) + (milli - li) + co, ?in the cultivated
fields of flowers?). So I think we can discard ?bush? and ?hill? and assume
the Nahuas were thinking ?cultivated field (or fields).?

 

Sahag?n explains the metaphorical meaning of the doublet (difrasismo) atl
tlachinolli in book 6, chapter 43 of the Florentine Codex. The Nahuatl texts
reads: ?Teuatl, tlachinolli. Inin tla / tolli, itechpa mitoaia: in uei iao /
oiotl muchioaia, ano?o uei coco / liztli: mitoaia. Otopan muchiuh, / ano?o
otopan onquiz: iniuhqui / teuatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: / cocoliztli,
ano?o uel iehoatl in / iaoiotl.? This can be translated literally as: ?The
divine water, the burnt fields. With this saying it was said: the great war
was done, or the great sickness. It was said: over us was done, or over us
flowed, something like the divine water, the burnt fields. It means: the
sickness or this war.? Sahag?n?s Spanish translation, less literal than
mine, is close in meaning: ?Quiere dezir esta letra. El mar / o la
chamusquina vino sobre noso / tros o paso sobre nosotros. Por meta / phora
se dize: de la pestilencia o / guerra que quando se acaba dizen /
otonpanquiz inteuatl in tlachinolli. / Paso sobre nosotros la mar y el
fuego.?

 

I hope this helps clarify the meaning of atl tlachinolli.

 

Saludos desde Guanajuato,

 

David

 

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de Ian Mursell
Enviado el: martes, 18 de enero de 2011 13:50
Para: Nahuat-l ((messages)); Aztlan
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare -
yes, but the snake...?

 

Dear Listeros,

 

We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received

concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation

account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the

evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational

website.  You can see the end result here -

 

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47

 

It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out

there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In

any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to

read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and

to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up

before as a thread)...

 

Best wishes,

 

Ian

 

Ian Mursell

 

MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University

 

Director, 'Mexicolore'

28 Warriner Gardens

London SW11 4EB, U.K.

Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577

Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173

www.aztecs.org

Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com

info at mexicolore.co.uk

 

1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over

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much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'

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From cuecuex at gmail.com  Wed Jan 19 07:36:39 2011
From: cuecuex at gmail.com (roberto romero)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 01:36:39 -0600
Subject: the eagle, the cactus, the stone,
 sacred warfare o el falso s=?iso-8859-1?Q?=EDmbolo_?=de la
 fundacion
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2011.013639.0600.CUECUEX@GMAIL.COM>

Hola foristas

Como parte de la falsificaci?n de la historia de lo que ahora se llama
M?xico se encuentra el llamado escudo nacional en donde se estan enfrentando
en guerra permanente dos animales sacros de la religi?n indigena
prehispanica mesoamericana, el ?guila y la serpiente, representaciones
nahuales de deidades fundamentales para los mexicas y los tenochcas, .

Y quiero destacar que no identifico al aguila con el sol en automatico, como
muchos "gatilllos veloces" en la r?mas arqueol?gicas y antropologicas
disparan inmeditamente, por lo cual identifican en todos los casos a el
aguila = sol. Esto es un error pues el aguila representa tambi?n la luna.

En realidad dicha imagen de un ?guila devorando o sujetando con el pico a
una serpiente

1.- SOLO APARECE EN EL ATLAS DE DURAN y EN LA IMAGEN DEL C?DICE AUBIN donde
los Tlacuilos por conocimiento, iniciativa o indicaciones plasmaron de esa
manera el s?mbolo central de la l?mina que ilustra la fundaci?n de
Tenochtitlan que no la de M?xico esta fundaci?n no se representa
pictoricamente.

Aunque la obra de Duran es junto con el c?dice Ramirez y la de Tezozomoc
derivada de un original perdido que Barlow llam? la Cr?nica X tenemos el
caso de :

2.- En el C?DICE Ramirez el ?guila atrapa en sus garra un p?jaro y en ello
la imagen es fiel al texto que le precede en el C?dice Ramirez

3.- En la Cr?nica Mexicana de Tezozomoc otra obra derivada de la Cr?nica X
lo que se dice es que estaba un ?guila posada arriba de un nopal.

De las obras deudoras de la cr?nica X s?lo en Duran se coloca un ?guila
devorando una serpiente

4.- En el texto del c?dice Aubin se repite esta descripci?n s?lo un ?guila
parada encima de un nopal y a los pies de este su nido hecho de plumas rojas
y azules

5.- En la im?gen de este hecho que tiene dicho c?dice Aubin lo que se pinta
en la L?mina NO ES FIEL REPRESENTACI?N DE LO QUE SE DICE EN EL TEXTO y pinta
un aguila que devora una serpiente

6.- En la l?mina I del C?dice Mendocino el aguila toma con su garra
izquierda una TUNA ROJA

7.- En la parte trasera de la escultura tenochca llamada por Caso el
"Teocalli de la Guerra Sagrada", el ?guila no sujeta nada con el pico, con
la garra derecha se posa sobre una tuna y con la garra izquierda sujeta el
s?mbolo TEUATL TLACHINOLLI que significa AGUA DIVINA TIERRA QUEMADA y que
esta labrado sugiriendo que brot? del pico del ?guila.

En dicha escultura se encuentra el conjunto s?mbolico siempre presente en
todas las im?genes de la fundaci?n de Tenochtitl?n: conjunto simb?lico
formado por una piedra, un nopal y un ?guila.

?ste conjunto simb?lico brota de la enorme boca de una deidad recostada que
porta anillos oculares de Tlaloc. Hay que recordar que en el texto del
c?dice Aubin , el dios Tlaloc le indica al ahogado teomama Axoloua que en
dicho sitio funden la casas divinas en donde reinaran Tlaloc junto a su hijo
Huitzilopochtli.

El s?mbolo TEUATL TLACHINOLLI (AGUA DIVINA TIERRA QUEMADA ) ha sido
manoseado y utilizado erroneamente.

El s?mbolo y el dicho TEUATL TLACHINOLLI era restringido para indicar
extendidas y graves enfermedades, epidemias , grandes desgracias y las
grandes guerras aquellas que liquidaban y exterminaban a los pueblos, las
guerras que enviaban los dioses.

Este s?mbolo esta compuesto por dos elementos de los cuales en lo general la
mayor?a de los interpretes degrada y mal interpreta:

El primer elemento es TEUATL el AGUA DIVINA, ?sto es, se indica un tipo
especial de agua: la divina

No se trata de cualquier agua sino s?lo de aquella agua que dan los dioses,
el agua enviada por la divinidad y que no esta en la voluntad de los humanos
decidir si beben o no, el agua que por voluntad de los dioses los humanos la
beberan lo deseen o no.

Pero en las interpretaciones mas comunes el agua divina TEUATL ha sido
transformada en SIMPLE AGUA ESTO ES EN ATL

Esto es un error pues en el texto del Libro sexto del C?dice Florentino est?
escrito TEUATL (Agua divina) Y NO ATL (agua). cfr Libro sexto c?dice
Florentino folio 202V.

El segundo error del cual esta lleno la literatura arqueol?gica y
etnohist?rica sobre los tenochcas y mexicas, es interpretar erroneamente el
conjunto simb?lico  ATL TLACHINOLLI como sin?nimo de GUERRA o de GUERRA
SAGRADA cuando este s?mbolo realmente trata de la agricultura como buscare
demostrar.

La belicista interpretaci?n del s?mbolo ind?gena es producto de una ?PTICA
CULTURAL OCCIDENTAL Y EUROPEA EN DONDE EFECTIVAMENTE CAMPO QUEMADO O TIERRA
QUEMADA son representaciones simb?licas, literarias culturales de la GUERRA
y ello lo fue as?, por la forma en que se hizo la guerra en esas regiones,
desde las antiguas sociedades europeas precapitalistas hasta las modernas
matanzas planificadas del siglo XX.

Pero entre los pueblos mesoamericanos lo que en la guerra prehisp?nica se
buscaba quemar como objetivo militar fundamental era el Teocalli, la casa
sagrada del dios tutelar del pueblo, en la guerra prehisp?nica no se buscaba
o se practicaba quemar los campos.

Tlachinolli es s?lo tierra quemada y no es guerra.

Quemar la tierra es una labor agr?cola.

Cuando esta agricultura se practica en tierras de bosques de monte o como
agricultura n?mada en bosques tropicales o zonas de selva baja como Yucatan,
se le llama agricultura de tumba [arboles] - quema- siembra.

Haciendo la roza o deshierbe con la quema de la tierra.

Es la forma de cultivo mas practicada en la actualidad por los campesinos de
la peninsula de Yucat?n y es la principal responsable de la perturbaci?n de
la vegetaci?n del pa?s y de su desforestaci?n.

En la forma de cultivo indigena,  el quemar la tierra, el tlachinolli, es
una labor agr?cola necesaria para preparar el suelo antes de sembrar o para
limpiar la milpa quemando el rastrojo, las ca?as sin mazorcas de maiz, como
labor posterior a la cosecha.

Esta quema de las ca?as sin mazorcas siempre se dio en la ?poca prehisp?nica
por la ausencia de ganado.

Actualmente muchos campesinos usan el rastrojo para alimentar al ganado y ya
no hacen esta segunda quema posterior a la cosecha. Ahora algunos s?lo
queman la tierra antes de la siembra para deshierbar (roza) y para ahuyentar
a los animales que podran en el futuro perjudicar la siembra.

Uno de los grandes problemas en el mes de noviembre y diciembre, despues de
la cosecha del ciclo agr?cola de primavera, en las carreteras de las
regiones de cultivo temporalero de M?xico es la quema de rastrojo en milpas,
cuyas humaredas ponen en riesgo a los vehiculos y por la seca pueden
provocar incendios mayores, el fenomeno se repite antes de marzo segun sea
la costumbre y como se hayan presentado las lluvias tempranas.

Unos campesinos se apuran a quemar el rastrojo en noviembre para volver a
sembrar y hacer la milpa "chica" llamada "milpa de medio a?o" o milpa
peque?a" .

Esta es una siembra de hortalizas, habas o acelgas y el algunos casos, en
zonas de humedales de monte, tambi?n de maiz.

Esta peque?a siembra maicera se da mas en donde a los sembrado de monte le
"pegan" las humedades y lluvias que traen los vientos del norte durante el
invierno, como es el caso de Meztitlan, la sierra de Otontepec y regiones de
la zona huasteca hacia el rumbo del golfo de M?xico.

En Amealco, Quer?taro hasta los 70?s cuando hab?a mas superficie con bosque
en Noviembre se quemaba la tierra para hacer una milpa de medio a?o. Ahora
s?lo se hace en monte con chicharo y haba o de hortaliza en tierras humedas
del Valle de Temazcalcingo.

De estas siembras de invierno Duran y Sahag?n nos hablan en sus respectivas
historias.

El erroneo y falso concepto de atl tlachinolli leido comunmente tambien como
agua fuego y como sinonimo de guerra; es uno de los conceptos favoritos de
la interpretaci?n dualista de la religi?n y de la llamada "filosofia"
nahuatl, es uno de los conceptos donde para los dualistas se expresa
claramente la contradicci?n dialectica usada por la filosof?a ind?gena.

Pero en la realidad tanto el agua (lluvia o riego) y el fuego o sea quemar
la tierra y las hierbas, son partes constitutivas, necesarias y no
enfrentadas, no contrapuestas ni contradictorias de un mismo proceso
agr?cola, de una totalidad: la siembra.

9.- El s?mbolo del Aguila fundadora o del aguila agorera como representaci?n
nahual de una divinidad, el aguila que al posarse en un lugar indica donde
fundar una poblaci?n, yo creo originalmente fue un mito otomi y que fue de
los otomies de donde lo tomaron los mexicas, as? como tambien de los otomies
tomaron el nombre del pueblo que fundaron: Mexico, en el centro de la luna.

En pueblos otom?es del norte del Valle del Mezquital existe el mito que el
?guila se poso en esos pueblos y que ah? en esos pueblos iba a ser M?xico
pero como al ?guila algo no le gusto, se fue a otro lado.

En el pueblo de mayoria otomi de San Ildefonso Tultepec , Amealco,
Quer?taro, municipio donde vivo, el mito se?ala que ?ste pueblo se fundo por
vez primera donde se paro el ?guila, en donde est? la iglesia vieja y
abandonada, pero como al ?guila no le gusto ese sitio porque por ese rumbo
rondaba la mujer serpiente, decidio el ?guila irse a a parar donde ahora
esta la iglesia colonial del siglo XVIII y ah? los otom?es fundaron el
pueblo de San Ildefonso.

En el Memorial de M?ritos del cacique Pedro Mart?n del Toro, conquistador
otomi y exterminador de chichimecas, en una de sus l?minas aparece dibujada
el s?mbolo del aguila parada en una nopal y atrapando con el pico una
serpiente la cual adem?s tiene una flecha en el cuerpo.

Este s?mbolo del agu?la en un nopal y devorando serpientes se pinta donde se
representa el sitio donde los conquistadores otom?s exterminaron a los
abor?genes chichimecas guachichiles.

En l? citada l?mina dicho acto de liquidaci?n y exterminio de la poblaci?n
abor?gen se representa pintando muerto al cacique chichimeca Mazad?n, indio
guachichil que en otras fuentes llaman Mazcorro.

En dicho sitio donde fue muerta la poblaci?n abor?gen y se conquist?
mediante el exterminio de la poblaci?n local y la liquidacion del mando
abor?gen, los conquistadores otomies fundaron los poblados de Sombrete
(Zacatecas) y de Guadiana (Durango) Ver en Memorial .l?mina 2 f.19.r

Esto nos regresa al significado de en que casos los ind?genas mesoamericanos
usaban los simbolos de un ?guila devorando una serpiente.

Tal parece que ese s?mbolo Aguila devorando una serpiente s?lo se utilizaba
para indicar la fundaci?n de un poblado que hab?a sido precedido de una
conquista con guerra de exterminio de la poblaci?n local y que implicaba la
eliminaci?n de los mandos politico militares abor?genes.

Acaso ese tipo de fundaci?n es lo que sab?an los tlacuilos que pintaron el
Atlas de Duran y el c?dice Aubin y es lo que nos quisieron comunicar que
hab?a ocurrido en el lugar donde se fundo Tenochtitlan y por ello pintaron
una ?guila devorando una serpiente. Pictoricamente nos comunican que la
fundaci?n de Tenochtitlan se hizo teniendo como paso previo la conquista y
el exterminio de una poblaci?n aborigen local , de ser as? pienso quizas fue
de origen otomi o chalmeca.

ROBERTO ROMERO GUTIERREZ
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From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com  Sun Jan 23 09:56:34 2011
From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:56:34 +0000
Subject: RV:  the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
 but the snake...?
In-Reply-To: <002301cbb77b$3bd02bf0$b37083d0$@net.mx>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JAN.2011.095634.0000.IAN.MURSELL@BTINTERNET.COM>

Thank you, David, for taking the time and trouble to give me this very full
explanation of the meaning of 'atl tlachinolli'.  I've taken your suggestion
and edited the phrase to read 'water, burnt fields'.

Indeed thank you everyone for your feedback on this topic.  Having recently
corresponded with Alfredo L?pez-Aust?n, I recommend his other article on
this question -

El aguila y la serpiente, in 'Mitos Mexicanos' edited by Enrique Florescano
(1995)

- in which he demonstrates clearly the presence of eagle-devouring-snake
sculptures in pre-Hispanic Mesoamerica, which he associates with fundamental
binary opposites such as sun and water, dry and rainy seasons, etc.  I've
tried to incorporate some of his arguments into the edited version of the
page.  As L-A argues, when legend, miracle, official history and reality all
fuse in a single literary pot, it's hardly surprising there are so many
contradictions and ambiguities...

Muchos saludos,

Ian


> 
> 
> [My last post slipped out of my hands with a few errata. They are corrected
> here.]
>  
> **********************************************************
>  
> Dear Ian:
>  
> The page looks good. I think the word tlachinolli can be translated more
> precisely than ?a burned thing?. The latter phrase is found a lot in
> Mesoamericanist literature. It looks like it was taken from Alonso de Molina?s
> (1571) gloss ?Tlachinolli. cosa quemada assi, o chamuscada.? The word ?assi?
> is important because Molina is referring to the previous entry,
> ?Tlachinoliztli. el acto de quemar los campos;? before that is ?Tlachinoa. ni.
> quemar los campos o montes. Pr. onitlachino.? Molina also registers the verb
> without fusing the object prefix tla- to the root: ?chinoa. nitla. quemar los
> campos. preteri. onitlachino.?
>  
> Tlachinolli, then, is a noun derived from the verb chinoa, ?to burn the
> cultivated field or bush,? meaning ?burnt field,? or ?burnt bush? (?bush? is
> used here to mean uncultivated land with mixed vegetation, which seems to be
> what Molina means here by ?montes?; an alternative translation would be
> ?hills? or ?mountains?). It works like this:
>  
> -          verb: chinoa:, ?to burn the field/bush/hill;?
> -          passive form: tlachinolo: (tla + (chinoa: - a:) + lo:), ?some
> field/bush/hill is burned;?
> -          deverbal noun derived from the passive form: tlachinolli (tla +
> (chinoa: - a:) + (lo: - o:) + li, ?some burnt field/bush/hill.?
>  
> (I restored the long vowels in the latter analysis, using colons, for the sake
> of precision.)
>  
> The pictorial signs associated with the Nahuatl doublet atl tlachinolli, found
> on pre-Hispanic sculptures like the Teocalli de la Guerra Sagrada and the
> Huehuetl de Malinalco, as well as several pictorial manuscripts from the early
> colonial period, communicate the idea of a conflagration in cultivated fields.
> Present in most of these sign clusters, in combination with igneous signs
> (usually a butterfly-like flame and bands of red-orange fire, is the
> combination of curved elements like the letter ?c? with rows of dots, on a
> grey background, found in other signs that express the idea of cultivated
> fields). An example of the latter is the Xochimilco toponymic sign on the
> Piedra de T?zoc and the Piedra del ex Arzobispado, and its counterpart in the
> Codex Mendoza, in all of which a rectangle with these elements appears under
> flower signs ((xochitl - tl) + (milli - li) + co, ?in the cultivated fields of
> flowers?). So I think we can discard ?bush? and ?hill? and assume the Nahuas
> were thinking ?cultivated field (or fields).?
>  
> Sahag?n explains the metaphorical meaning of the doublet (difrasismo) atl
> tlachinolli in book 6, chapter 43 of the Florentine Codex. The Nahuatl texts
> reads: ?Teuatl, tlachinolli. Inin tla / tolli, itechpa mitoaia: in uei iao /
> oiotl muchioaia, ano?o uei coco / liztli: mitoaia. Otopan muchiuh, / ano?o
> otopan onquiz: iniuhqui / teuatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: / cocoliztli,
> ano?o uel iehoatl in / iaoiotl.? This can be translated literally as: ?The
> divine water, the burnt fields. With this saying it was said: the great war
> was done, or the great sickness. It was said: over us was done, or over us
> flowed, something like the divine water, the burnt fields. It means: the
> sickness or this war.? Sahag?n?s Spanish translation, less literal than mine,
> is close in meaning: ?Quiere dezir esta letra. El mar / o la chamusquina vino
> sobre noso / tros o paso sobre nosotros. Por meta / phora se dize: de la
> pestilencia o / guerra que quando se acaba dizen / otonpanquiz inteuatl in
> tlachinolli. / Paso sobre nosotros la mar y el fuego.?
>  
> I hope this helps clarify the meaning of atl tlachinolli.
>  
> Saludos desde Guanajuato,
>  
> David
>  
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
> En nombre de Ian Mursell
> Enviado el: martes, 18 de enero de 2011 13:50
> Para: Nahuat-l ((messages)); Aztlan
> Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
> but the snake...?
>  
> Dear Listeros,
>  
> We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received
> concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation
> account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the
> evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational
> website.  You can see the end result here -
>  
> http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47
>  
> It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out
> there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In
> any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to
> read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and
> to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up
> before as a thread)...
>  
> Best wishes,
>  
> Ian
>  
> Ian Mursell
>  
> MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University
>  
> Director, 'Mexicolore'
> 28 Warriner Gardens
> London SW11 4EB, U.K.
> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
> www.aztecs.org
> Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
> info at mexicolore.co.uk
>  
> 1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over
> 2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching
> resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and
> much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'
> (British Museum Education Service)
> 


_______________________________________________
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From t_amaya at megared.net.mx  Sat Jan 22 21:44:01 2011
From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (t_amaya at megared.net.mx)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 15:44:01 -0600
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JAN.2011.154401.0600.>

 
	Hola Vazquez D?az 
	A continuaci?n mis respuestas esperando te sean ?tiles.  
	Tlajomulco.  

	Anteriormente Tlacomolco o tlacomulco. De tlacomolli: hoquedad en la
tierra, barranco; cuando contiene agua se le llama aatlacomolli, v. g.
 Aatlacomulco (localidad del Edo. de M?xico). Por lo tanto el
locativo tuyo significa: Donde hay hoquedades, barrancos. 
	Tlazazalca.  

	Su significado no se puede inferir f?cilmente a partir de los
diccionarios, pero tiene que ver con pegar y pegamento. Para los que
hablan nahuat (regi?n de Zacapoaxtla, Puebla, con la pronunciaci?n
_tazazalca_ significa ?algo que ha quedado o est? pegajoso?. Y en
este caso no hay que buscarle mucho, pues es un termino usual. Por
ejemplo si el atole se ha derramado sobre la mesa se dice  ahora que,
?tazazalca? y hay que lavarla, limpiarla. Se trata pues, de de
algo pegajoso. Si es un locativo significar?a un lugar pegajoso (por
ejemplo a causa de lodo arcilloso). 
	Tlalcosahua, o tlalcozahua.  

	Ya una vez expres? ene este foro que significaba ?tierra
amarillenta?. Va una mayor explicaci?n que en ese entonces no hice.
 
	Se compone de tlalli (tierra) y cozahua.  
	En el nahuat, variante que conozco bien por ser vecino de Cuetzalan,
la part?cula verbal cozahua puede, a pesar de su terminaci?n, ser
tambien intransitiva. Al igual que pehua (de empezar) o temohua (de
descender).  

	Por tanto la traducci?n del termino ser?a: tierra que amarillea.  
	Aqu? habr?a que aclarar dos puntos: el de amarillo y la
composici?n de la palabra (_a late response to Michael_) 
	1.       Amarillo.  

	En la regi?n de Cuetzalan y sobre todo en Huauchinango, todav?a se
puede ver un animal llamado Cozahtli (especie de comadreja), cuyo
pelaje ?amarillea? es decir refleja la luz y da ese efecto.
Tambi?n podr?amos decir que al reflejar la luz,  la descompone con
los colores del arco iris. Pero el efecto final que uno ve (estamos
hablando de percepci?n del color) es que amarillea.  

	Tambi?n se aplica este concepto de color a: 

	Un collar con cuentas de diversos colores : cozcat o cozcatl.  

	Los penachos de los ?quetzales?, una de las danzas de Cuetzalan.
Los penachos son los cozalimeh, singular: cozalli. Y es que, trenzando
las varas que van del centro hacia la circunferencia del penacho, se
tienen tiras de papel de diversos colores que forman como un arco iris
alrededor de la cabeza del danzante. El archo iris es conocido
tambi?n como Cozaltzin, que es la forma reverencial de cozalli, junto
con cocemalot vel cozamalot.  

	Otras palabras relacionadas con ?amarillear? 

	Cozyo = lleno de color amarilloso 

	Acocilli = camar?n de r?o, que se pone de tono amarilloso, casi
anaranjado, ya cocido.  
	Con todo esto tiene que ver la palabra cozahua y por tanto coztic.
Ver: Castillo Hern?ndez, Mario Alberto,  _El mundo del color en
Cuetzalan: un estudio etnocient?fico en una comunidad nahua,
_Colecci?n Cient?fica, INAH, M?xico.  
	2.       La composici?n de la palabra.  

	Tomemos como ejemplo las palabras tepoz y nehnemi (metal + de
caminar). De ?stas podemos derivar las palabras: tepoznehnemini o
tepoznehnenqui con el significado: el que camina como fierro. Pero
tambi?n se puede decir: tepoznehnemi, con el mismo significado (ce
tacat tepoznehnemi: una persona que camina como fierro).  

	Pero si separamos un poco las palabras y les damos otra entonaci?n,
otro ?nfasis y dijeramos algo as? como t?poz?nehnemi, ello
signifiar?a ?fierro que camina? , o sea un carro, un cami?n,
v.g.  ?N? huitza t?poz?nehnemi?:  all? viene el cami?n. Por
otra parte ?n? huitza tepoznehnemi? o ne huitza in tepoznehnemi,
significa "all? viene el que camina como fierro".  
	Por tanto tlalcozahua se puede leer : tierra que amarillea, o bien
amarillea como tierra. Para m? lo primero es m?s l?gico, ya que se
trata de un locativo.  

	Es el mismo caso de otras composiciones como: 
	 Huitzilopochtli, de Huitzilli?Opochtli: Colibri que es zurdo, o
sea colibr? zurdo (no podemos decir ?zurdo como colibr?? ?o
s??).  

	Moctezuma, de Motecuh(de Tecuhtli)?zoma: Tu Se?or que est?
enojado 

	Tezcatli?Poca : Espejo que humea.  

	Cuauhtemoc: De cuauhtli y temoc. Aqu? s?, seg?n el ?nfasis puede
significar: ha descendido como ?guila (cuauhtemoc), o bien ?guila
que ha descendido (cuauh--temoc). Es el mismo caso de Juan Diego
Cuauhtlatoatzin: El que habla como ?guila (cuauhtlahtoatzin), o bien
?guila que habla  (cuauh--tlahtoatzin). Esto es que, seg?n el
?nfasis, el tema cuauh, expresa  ?aguila? o ?como ?guila?;
aqu? est? lo interesante, pues seg?n  lo pronuncie uno, el
signicado es diferente. Hay que notar que se ha suprimido el sufijo
sustantivador tli (li). Tambi?n en el caso de  Huitzilopochtli,
Tlalcozahua y Motecuhzoma no se expresa la terminaci?n. El caso de
Tezcatli--poca es diferente, a mi entender se hace uso de la
terminaci?n tli en lugar de tl para el tema tezcauh (espejo), (m?s
comunmente tezcatl). Es decir que  se quiere expresar concretamente la
idea de un "espejo que humea".  
	Otros ejemplos: 

	Tlalpujahua, de tlallii, poxahuac : tierra (que est?) suave,
suelta.  

	Altotonga: de atl: agua, totonca: caliente, es decir:  agua (que
est?) caliente. Por supuesto, tambi?n puede descomponerse as?: 
atl-totonqui-can -->  altotonccan --> altototonga: lugar de agua
caliente.  
	Desde luego hay que tomar en cuenta que hablamos de top?nimos, de
antrop?nimos y tambi?n de nombres descriptivos: ?cosa que ?.
?: tepoz?mimiloni (fierro que rueda, ferrocarril); tepoz?paynal
(fierro que es r?pido), o tepozpaynal (r?pido de fierro). Hay casos
curiosos como Iztatlalco vs. tlalixtac que sepodr?an traducir, ambos,
como "tierra blanca".  
	Estos ejemplos son los menos, ya que la composici?n preferida es
calificativo + lo calificado: iztacalco, ixtapan, ixtacamaztitlan,
cozcatlan, etc. etc.  
	Nimitzyoltlapalohua.  
	Tomas Amaya

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From t_amaya at megared.net.mx  Sun Jan 23 03:01:58 2011
From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (t_amaya at megared.net.mx)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 21:01:58 -0600
Subject: Traducci=?utf-8?Q?=C3=B3n_?=de un son cazcan
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JAN.2011.210158.0600.>

 
	Hola Roberto. Hola Listeros.  

	Te mando una versi?n de lo que para m? es el texto nahua.  

	Supongo que quien lo transcribi? lo hizo de o?das. Y vaya que eso
es dif?cil. Como ejemplo te pido que a alguien muy ducho en ingl?s
le pidas que transcriba una canci?n cantada por los Doors o incluso
los Beatles, tan s?lo escuch?ndola. No es nada sencillo. Tiene que
o?rla varias veces. Seguro que habr? lugares donde se atore y
tendr? que recurrir a hablantes nativos. Y aun estos, se tardan a
veces para encontrar la palabra o palabras dichas por el cantante
(trata de transcribir un son jarocho a la primera y ver?s).  
	M?s a?n si se trata de una canci?n que ha pasado de generaci?n
en generaci?n. 
	Yo lo que hice fue tratar de cantarla y encontrarle una melod?a,
una m?trica, un ritmo. El resultado es: 
	:  
	Versi?n Aguirre B.  

	 Versi?n T. Amaya  

	Comentarios
	Tlazolcihuapilli            

	cemicac inichpochlti          Yaoquil itonatiuh                
yahuallan Yohualli                

	Ahuayahuayan                     can ichichimeco                   

	Nixtlacuilolli                                          

	Tlazohcihuapilli                                     
	cemicac nichpochlti                            
	Ya oyahqui i tonatiuh                                  
	Ya ohuallah in Yohualli                                
	Ahuayahuayan                                     

	 Ca niixixchimeco                                   

	 Nixtlacuilolli                                    

	Puede ser de tlazolli: basura, inmundicia yo m?s bien pienso que
viene de tlazohtli: algo precioso, m?s cihuapilli (se?ora).  
	 puede ser ni ichpochtli (primera persona sing.) o tiichpochtli
(segun pers. sing.) 
	Yaoquil me suena a ya oyahqui: ya vino 
	Yahuallan parece ser ya ohuallah, ya vino.  
	Ahuayahuayan, expresi?n como ayayayay del son 
	Ca, con el significado de pues o que.  

	Chichimeco, leido como ix-ixmeco: cara renegrida 
	Nixtlacuilolli =  yo cara pintada. .  
	As?, mi versi?n 1 en espa?ol es: 
	_Preciosa se?ora_ 

	_yo la siempre virgen_ 

	_ya se ha ido el sol_ 

	_la noche ha llegado_ 

	_ayayayayay_ 

	_yo cara ? negrida_ 

	_yo cara pintada. _ 

	__  

	Segunda versi?n:  

	__  

	_Preciosa se?ora_ 

	_tu la siempre virgen_ 

	_ya se ha ido el sol_ 

	_la noche ha llegado_ 

	_ayayayayay_ 

	_yo cara ? negrida_ 

	_yo cara pintada. _ 

	__  

	Observaci?n: puede ser un texto siempre en primera persona. O bien
uno donde el que canta se dirige a la preciosa se?ora y luego habla
de ?l mismo. Ahora bien, si de quien habla el canto es de Tlazolteotl
y vemos los c?dices en que aparece su im?gen, se observa que tiene
la cara pintada, con labios y nar?z en negro. Espero que mi versi?n
te ayude en algo.  

	__  
	Reciban el mejor de mis saludos. 
	Tomas Amaya
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