RV: the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes, but the snake...?

Sun Jan 23 09:56:34 UTC 2011

Thank you, David, for taking the time and trouble to give me this very full
explanation of the meaning of 'atl tlachinolli'.  I've taken your suggestion
and edited the phrase to read 'water, burnt fields'.

Indeed thank you everyone for your feedback on this topic.  Having recently
corresponded with Alfredo López-Austín, I recommend his other article on
this question -

El aguila y la serpiente, in 'Mitos Mexicanos' edited by Enrique Florescano
(1995)

- in which he demonstrates clearly the presence of eagle-devouring-snake
sculptures in pre-Hispanic Mesoamerica, which he associates with fundamental
binary opposites such as sun and water, dry and rainy seasons, etc.  I've
tried to incorporate some of his arguments into the edited version of the
page.  As L-A argues, when legend, miracle, official history and reality all
fuse in a single literary pot, it's hardly surprising there are so many
contradictions and ambiguities...

Muchos saludos,

Ian

> 
> 
> [My last post slipped out of my hands with a few errata. They are corrected
> here.]
>  
> **********************************************************
>  
> Dear Ian:
>  
> The page looks good. I think the word tlachinolli can be translated more
> precisely than ³a burned thing². The latter phrase is found a lot in
> Mesoamericanist literature. It looks like it was taken from Alonso de Molina¹s
> (1571) gloss ³Tlachinolli. cosa quemada assi, o chamuscada.² The word ³assi²
> is important because Molina is referring to the previous entry,
> ³Tlachinoliztli. el acto de quemar los campos;² before that is ³Tlachinoa. ni.
> quemar los campos o montes. Pr. onitlachino.² Molina also registers the verb
> without fusing the object prefix tla- to the root: ³chinoa. nitla. quemar los
> campos. preteri. onitlachino.²
>  
> Tlachinolli, then, is a noun derived from the verb chinoa, ³to burn the
> cultivated field or bush,² meaning ³burnt field,² or ³burnt bush² (³bush² is
> used here to mean uncultivated land with mixed vegetation, which seems to be
> what Molina means here by ³montes²; an alternative translation would be
> ³hills² or ³mountains²). It works like this:
>  
> -          verb: chinoa:, ³to burn the field/bush/hill;²
> -          passive form: tlachinolo: (tla + (chinoa: - a:) + lo:), ³some
> field/bush/hill is burned;²
> -          deverbal noun derived from the passive form: tlachinolli (tla +
> (chinoa: - a:) + (lo: - o:) + li, ³some burnt field/bush/hill.²
>  
> (I restored the long vowels in the latter analysis, using colons, for the sake
> of precision.)
>  
> The pictorial signs associated with the Nahuatl doublet atl tlachinolli, found
> on pre-Hispanic sculptures like the Teocalli de la Guerra Sagrada and the
> Huehuetl de Malinalco, as well as several pictorial manuscripts from the early
> colonial period, communicate the idea of a conflagration in cultivated fields.
> Present in most of these sign clusters, in combination with igneous signs
> (usually a butterfly-like flame and bands of red-orange fire, is the
> combination of curved elements like the letter c¹ with rows of dots, on a
> grey background, found in other signs that express the idea of cultivated
> fields). An example of the latter is the Xochimilco toponymic sign on the
> Piedra de Tízoc and the Piedra del ex Arzobispado, and its counterpart in the
> Codex Mendoza, in all of which a rectangle with these elements appears under
> flower signs ((xochitl - tl) + (milli - li) + co, ³in the cultivated fields of
> flowers²). So I think we can discard ³bush² and ³hill² and assume the Nahuas
> were thinking ³cultivated field (or fields).²
>  
> Sahagún explains the metaphorical meaning of the doublet (difrasismo) atl
> tlachinolli in book 6, chapter 43 of the Florentine Codex. The Nahuatl texts
> reads: ³Teuatl, tlachinolli. Inin tla / tolli, itechpa mitoaia: in uei iao /
> oiotl muchioaia, anoço uei coco / liztli: mitoaia. Otopan muchiuh, / anoço
> otopan onquiz: iniuhqui / teuatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: / cocoliztli,
> anoço uel iehoatl in / iaoiotl.² This can be translated literally as: ³The
> divine water, the burnt fields. With this saying it was said: the great war
> was done, or the great sickness. It was said: over us was done, or over us
> flowed, something like the divine water, the burnt fields. It means: the
> sickness or this war.² Sahagún¹s Spanish translation, less literal than mine,
> is close in meaning: ³Quiere dezir esta letra. El mar / o la chamusquina vino
> sobre noso / tros o paso sobre nosotros. Por meta / phora se dize: de la
> pestilencia o / guerra que quando se acaba dizen / otonpanquiz inteuatl in
> tlachinolli. / Paso sobre nosotros la mar y el fuego.²
>  
> I hope this helps clarify the meaning of atl tlachinolli.
>  
> Saludos desde Guanajuato,
>  
> David
>  
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
> En nombre de Ian Mursell
> Enviado el: martes, 18 de enero de 2011 13:50
> Para: Nahuat-l ((messages)); Aztlan
> Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] the eagle, the cactus, the stone, sacred warfare - yes,
> but the snake...?
>  
> Dear Listeros,
>  
> We have been intrigued by a question our teaching team recently received
> concerning the presence or absence of the snake in the original foundation
> account and emblem of Tenochtitlan, and we've tried to highlight the
> evidence for and against, for a general audience, on our educational
> website.  You can see the end result here -
>  
> http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=wus&tab=aus&id=47
>  
> It strikes us that there's very little information on this subject 'out
> there' for students to grapple with.  If we're wrong, please correct us.  In
> any case, we would be grateful if any of you could take a few minutes to
> read our modest attempt to 'state the case' on this fascinating question and
> to add your contributions to the debate (forgive me if this has come up
> before as a thread)...
>  
> Best wishes,
>  
> Ian
>  
> Ian Mursell
>  
> MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University
>  
> Director, 'Mexicolore'
> 28 Warriner Gardens
> London SW11 4EB, U.K.
> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577
> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173
> www.aztecs.org
> Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com
> info at mexicolore.co.uk
>  
> 1980-2011: 31 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over
> 2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching
> resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and
> much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team'
> (British Museum Education Service)
> 

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