From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Feb 8 17:18:20 2012 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 12:18:20 -0500 Subject: CFP - 2nd Annual Nahuatl @ Yale conference Message-ID: Nahuatl meeting at Yale On May 4 and 5, 2012, the Northeastern group of Nahuatl Studies will host a conference and workshop at Yale. The schedule will include advanced Nahuatl study, group document translation, and papers by scholars. The conference will include two sessions. In one session, scholars will gather to work collectively on the translation of documents which will be shared before the meeting. Please contact the organizers if you wish to present a document for study, to make arrangements for its distribution. The second session will include the presentation of papers on aspects of the Nahuatl language and linguistics, Nahuatl texts, or Nahua ethnohistory. Scholars interested in offering a paper should contact the organizers for inclusion. Six scholars have already submitted proposals for papers, and we look forward to several more. Papers may deal with any aspect of Nahuatl or Nahua studies, from pre-contact up to the modern era. Please consider joining us in this exciting weekend, with a document for study, with a paper, or simply by attending. More details will be forthcoming as plans are made final. Lunch on Saturday will be provided for all participants. The organizers include: Caterina Pizzigoni (cp2313 at columbia.edu) John Sullivan (idiez at me.com) Louise Burkhart (burk at albany.edu) John F. Schwaller (schwallr at potsdam.edu) -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Feb 10 18:49:08 2012 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:49:08 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl meetings at Yale, registration deadline Message-ID: Colleagues, A few days ago we sent out a request for proposals for the Northeastern Group of Nahuatl Studies meeting at Yale, May 4 & 5. The response has been rewarding. Because we need to begin to plan site details and the Saturday lunch, we have been asked to have a rough head count of participants as soon as possible. If you plan on attending the meetings, please let me know by February 24. We are soliciting paper proposals and also asking folks to bring Nahuatl texts for group translation. Please also submit those proposals as soon as possible, preferably by the Feb. 24 deadline. Those who do not notify us of their attendance at the conference will certainly be welcomed, but may not be able to participate in the full range of activities. Caterina Pizzigoni (cp2313 at columbia.edu) John Sullivan (idiez at me.com) Louise Burkhart (burk at albany.edu) John F. Schwaller (schwallr at potsdam.edu) -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ixtlil at earthlink.net Sat Feb 18 17:59:50 2012 From: ixtlil at earthlink.net (ixtlil at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 11:59:50 -0600 Subject: Obscure MS Reference in Auction Catlogue of Library Of Porter Cornelius Bliss Message-ID: Porter C. Bliss (1838-1885), Secretary of Legation for the US in Mexico (1870-1874, among many other things in a fascinating career involving travels also in Brazil and Paraguay) bought the Mapa de Metlatoyuca from Colonel Juan Bautista Campos in April, 1876 for $200 and later reportedly sold it to Simon Stevens for the same sum in June of that year. The Mapa was then apparently purchased by the Department of Manuscripts of the British Museum in 1876. Mr. Stevens was active in London in that period and before promoting the Tehuantepec Railway Company, an early proposed alternative route to what eventually became the Panama Canal. The Department of Manuscripts is now part of the British Library, having been separated from the British Museum in the early 1970s. The Mapa itself has stayed with the British Museum. I have been researching the map’s history as part of an article in process on the origin of the Mapa de Metlatoyuca. The Mapa comes from the small town of Taxco in the municipio of Tetela de Ocampo, Puebla and is related to the Relacion Geografica initiative of about 1580 in that area. (The tie to Metlatoyuca is not correct and the map depicts only the small valley in which Taxco is located and not the substantial portion of Mexico around Metlatoyuca that others have proposed). In this research, I went through the auction catalogue of Mr. Bliss’s library. The auction was held by George A. Leavitt and Co., New York in July, 1885. Page 39 of the catalogue has this listing with a bold face heading. “Unique Mexican Manuscript. 423. Inninemilitzin Oncanmotene Pua Occentetl Tlamahin Colli, etc., etc. A very curious seventeenth century manuscript written on some 750 pages in an admixture of Mexican, Spanish and Latin and of a religious character for the use of the priesthood. 4to, vellum (binding damaged and some of the pages stained). Because of its size, I thought I would mention it to see if it is already known. It by chance it is not, finding it would seem to start with the identification of the successful bidder for this lot. An early Otomi dictionary is also mentioned (published) as well as lot “1047 Compendio del Confesionario en Mexicano y Castellano. 32 mo. Antigua, 1840” (and so also apparently published). I doubt these items have anything to do with the Mapa de MEtlatoyuca but at least one may be of interest to list members. Jerry Offner _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Mon Feb 20 20:32:08 2012 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 21:32:08 +0100 Subject: XOLOPIHTLI Message-ID: Piyali, Help, please! Would really appreciate some feedback on my reasoning for the ethymology of this word. XOLOPIHTLI is "fool" it comes from XOLOPIHTI (to joke like a fool) the passive is XOLOPIHTIHUA? If so, its sustantivo verbal de paciente would be XOLOPIHTITLI If instead the passive is XOLOPIHTILO then we'd have XOLOPIHTILLI Otherwise using the active voice, preterite tense, we could have XOLOPIHTICTLI So how do we come up with XOLOPIHTLI? And the adverb would be XOLOPIHTICA (jokingly, foolishly)? Am I completely wrong? Thanks! Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Feb 20 21:52:06 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:52:06 -0500 Subject: XOLOPIHTLI Message-ID: Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Piyali, > > Help, please! Would really appreciate some feedback on my reasoning > for the ethymology of this word. > > XOLOPIHTLI is "fool" > it comes from XOLOPIHTI (to joke like a fool) > > the passive is XOLOPIHTIHUA? Susana: The passive is formed on transitive verb stems. So, this is not possible. However, you can form what's called a "non-active derivation" that gives you the notion of "people" or French "On". I would probably say in this case your form would be xolopihtilo 'people joke around'...unless the glottal stop and the /t/ underwent assimilation as in mati to macho....***xolopichlo? No sei pero creio que no. > If so, its sustantivo verbal de paciente would be XOLOPIHTITLI To form a patientive noun, add -tli to the preterit stem. I don't know the word that well, but I imagine it forms the preterite as oxolopihtih, so the patientive would be *xolopihtihtli. > If instead the passive is XOLOPIHTILO > then we'd have XOLOPIHTILLI > > Otherwise using the active voice, preterite tense, we could have > XOLOPIHTICTLI > > So how do we come up with XOLOPIHTLI? > > And the adverb would be XOLOPIHTICA (jokingly, foolishly)? I would guess this would be xolopihtihca. Michael > > Am I completely wrong? > > Thanks! > Susana > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Feb 21 00:28:06 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:28:06 -0600 Subject: XOLOPIHTLI In-Reply-To: <20120220165206.n9jv2du1qm8gs04c@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, First of all, “xolopihtli” is a basic morpheme, so the only thing you could divide it into would be the root, “xolopih-” and the absolutive suffix, “-tli”. “xolopihti”, ”to become stupid” is derived from “xolopihtli”, not the other way around: xolopih- + ti (inceptive verber) The past perfect form of “xolopihti” would be “xolopihtica” and that doubles as the adverb, “stupidly” The above forms are attested. Theoretically you could also form an impersonal (Michael is right in saying it wouldn’t be a passive form) from “xolopihti”. It would probably be either “xolopihtihua” or “xolopihtilo”, maybe meaning “there are a lot of people making fools out of themselves (in this place or meeting, etc.)” John On Feb 20, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > >> Piyali, >> >> Help, please! Would really appreciate some feedback on my reasoning >> for the ethymology of this word. >> >> XOLOPIHTLI is "fool" >> it comes from XOLOPIHTI (to joke like a fool) >> >> the passive is XOLOPIHTIHUA? > > Susana: > > The passive is formed on transitive verb stems. So, this is not possible. > > However, you can form what's called a "non-active derivation" that > gives you the notion of "people" or French "On". > > I would probably say in this case your form would be xolopihtilo > 'people joke around'...unless the glottal stop and the /t/ underwent > assimilation as in mati to macho....***xolopichlo? No sei pero creio > que no. > > > > > >> If so, its sustantivo verbal de paciente would be XOLOPIHTITLI > > To form a patientive noun, add -tli to the preterit stem. I don't know the word that well, but I imagine it forms the preterite as oxolopihtih, so the patientive would be *xolopihtihtli. > > >> If instead the passive is XOLOPIHTILO >> then we'd have XOLOPIHTILLI >> >> Otherwise using the active voice, preterite tense, we could have >> XOLOPIHTICTLI >> >> So how do we come up with XOLOPIHTLI? >> >> And the adverb would be XOLOPIHTICA (jokingly, foolishly)? > > > I would guess this would be xolopihtihca. > > Michael > > > >> >> Am I completely wrong? >> >> Thanks! >> Susana >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Feb 21 01:21:52 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:21:52 -0500 Subject: XOLOPIHTLI In-Reply-To: <20120220165206.n9jv2du1qm8gs04c@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, John. I obviously wasn't thinking. I do a lot of that. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 22 18:28:42 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:28:42 -0600 Subject: dictionaries Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, Jim Lockhart is translating Nahuatl as Written into Spanish for publication in Mexico, and he would like to include recently published dictionaries of Classical and Modern Nahuatl in Appendix 1, "Dictionaries and how to use them." In the current edition, dictionaries by Molina, Simeon, Karttunen, Campbell, Andrews (vocabulary), Brewer and Brewer (1971), Key and Ritchie de Key (1953), and Jonathan Amith's work in progress are mentioned. Please respond with any information you may have regarding manuscript, print and online publications, as well as works in progress. Once I get a master list compiled, I'll post it here. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Feb 24 18:19:44 2012 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:19:44 -0500 Subject: XOLOPIHTLI In-Reply-To: <20120220202152.f62si6oe0wosso8s@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I searched through my amate card file of the Florentine Codex and found these examples of the tli morpheme. |8-) Joe xolopihtli 1. *cohuaxolopihtzintli*. ano tle itlatlacol, amo tecuani zaza ye cohuatl: cohuaxolopitzintli, zazan molhui cohuatzintli: ayellele, ayeltzoyo. . also it is inoffensive, not poisonous; an ordinary serpent, a stupid little snake, a very useless little snake -- harmless, . . (b.11 f.9 c.5 p.83) 2. *tequixolopihtli*. in tlahueliloc tepiltzin tlatlahueliloc, zan tlatlahueliloc, tzontetl, yollochico, yollotlahueliloc, cuexcochcoyoc, ahtecacqui, tlamaxacualoani, ixtotomac, ihciccala, topal, chamatl, ahtlanonotzalli, tequixolopitli, ahmo cana, ahmo quicui in nayotl, in tayotl. . one's bad son [is] perverse, wicked, rebellious; a vile brute -- mad, deranged, disobedient; one who ignores commands; a fool, lewd, gaudy, vain, untrained; a dunce who accepts not, who receives not the counsel of mother [and] father. . (b.10 f.1 c.1 p.2) 3. *timoxolopihcuitia*. timoxolopicuitia: za xomolco, za tlayohuayan tihuetztoc. . "thou acknowledgest thyself a fool just lying in the corner, in the darkness." . (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.260) 4. *tixolopihtli*. amo no tiquechpilcatiaz, amo cenca titoloz, amo timonacacicquetztiaz, amo ahuic titlatlachixtiaz, amo tinanacaztlachixtiaz: inic amo mopan mitoz ca tixolopitli, ca titequimacehualli: ca acententli, ca acencamatl titlamactli, titequiicnopilpol: ca motequiicnopillo timaitia. . "also thou art not to hang thy head, not to incline thy head much, not to stand up off balance, not to look sideways, not to look out of the corner of the eyes, lest it be said of thee that thou art an imbecile, very much a commoner, that thou hast not been counseled, that thou art very much an orphan, that thou bringest thy orphanhood upon thyself." . (b.6 f.10 c.22 p.122) 5. *tixolopihtli*. amo no titzatziz, inic amo tixolopitli, tixtotomac, timillacatl, titequimillacatl ipan timachoz: . also thou art not to cry out, lest thou be known as an imbecile, a shameless one, a rustic, very much a rustic. . (b.6 f.10 c.22 p.122) 6. *tlacaxolopihtli*. in tlahueliloc iyolloco cihuatl, tlacaxolopitli, totompotla, nenquizqui, nempoliuhqui, nenempotla, . the bad middle-aged woman [is] foolish, stupid, useless, worthless, dumb. . (b.10 f.1 c.3 p.12) 7. *tlacaxolopihtli*. in tlahueliloc tepiltzin, yollotlahueliloc, yollochico yollonecuil, yollocuecuech, tlacaxolopitli, tlahelpol, tlahelconepol . the bad noble [is] mad, a vile brute -- wicked, perverted, foolish, revolting; a vile child. . (b.10 f.1 c.5 p.19) 8. *tlacaxolopihtli*. in amo cualli teichpoch: yolloitlacauhqui, ahuel monotza, tzontetl, cihuacuecuel, cuecuechtli cuecuetol, tlacapoyotl, tlacaxolopitli, . the bad maiden [is] corrupt, incorrigible, rebellious -- a proud woman, shameless, brazen, treacherous, stupid. . (b.10 f.3 c.13 p.47) 9. *tlaxolopihcachihua*. tlaticehua, tlatlapalmictia, tlatlayohuallotia, tlanenecuillalia, tlaxolopicachihua, tlaciuhcachihua tlaixtomahua . he paints without luster, ruins colors, blurs them, paints askew -- acts impetuously, hastily, without reflection. . (b.10 f.2 c.8 p.28) 10. *xolopihcayotl*. amo za tlahuanayotl caci, amo tequi xolopicayotl o, . that would be but virtual drunkenness, extreme foolishness. . (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.108) 11. *xolopihcayotl*. auh imohnica, in tepotzco xolopicayotl: a pillotl, coneyotl toconchihua: . and in their absence we perform foolishness, babyishness, childishness. . (b.6 f.12 c.25 p.143) 12. *xolopihcayotl*. anezcalicayotl, xolopicayotl, . imprudence, foolishness . (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.251) 13. *xolopihcayotl*. quitoznequi: in aquin amo mozcalia, amo huellatoa, amo huel quichihua in tlein tequitilo: ipan nemi in amo nezcalicayotl, in xolopicayotl. . it means the one who is not prudent, not well spoken; who does not well that which he is given as a task, who lives in imprudence, in foolishness. . (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.251) 14. *xolopihilama*. amo cualli citli xolopihilama, tetlayohuayan aquiani teohuitiliani . the bad grandmother [is] a stupid old woman, a leader of others into darkness, a bad example. . (b.10 f.1 c.1 p.5) 15. *xolopihmeh*. e. in tlateotoquiliztli, in aquimamatcahuaque, in xolopime, oquitzintique, in nican tlalticpac: . e. the witless, the senseless began idolatry here upon earth. . (b.1 f.3 c.Ap p.58) 16. *xolopihti*. ihilihuizti, xohxoloti, xolopiti, mahuilquixtia, ahuilquiza . she is inconsiderate, imbecile, stupid; she brings dishonor, disgrace. . (b.10 f.3 c.13 p.47) 17. *xolopihticitl*. in amo cualli tlamatini xolopiticitl, xolopitli, teopilpol, piale, nonotzale nonotzqui . the bad wise man [is] a stupid physician, silly, decrepit, [pretending to be] a person of trust, a counselor, advised. . (b.10 f.2 c.8 p.30) 18. *xolopihtli*. inin tlatolli, itechpa mitoaya: in amo mozcalia, in amo tlachia, xolopitli, amo tlacaqui: . this saying was said of the untrained, the disregarded, the stupid, the one who heeded not. . (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.255) 19. *xolopihtli*. in tenan tlahueliloc, in amo cualli, tlacanexquimilli, xolopitli, tonalcochqui, maxixilopahuax, tlanempopoloani, tetlaixpachilhuiani, tetlanahualchichihuiliani, tetlanahualpolhuiani, . one's bad mother [is] evil, dull, stupid, sleepy, lazy; [she is] a squanderer, a petty thief, a deceiver, a fraud. . (b.10 f.1 c.1 p.2) 20. *xolopihtli*. in piltontli tlahueliloc cuitlatzol quitemmatqui, ehtic, xocopatic, ahoompa xolopitli nextecuili, ahompa eehua, oolpatlachehua, cocopichcholoa, tompox poxacua, yolpoliuhqui, yollotlahueliloc, ahnenqui, teopoliuhqui . the bad boy [is] lazy, indolent, sluggish; a lump of flesh with two eyes; a confused, stupid imbecile who understands things backwards, who does things backwards; rude, dull, pilfering, agitated; a fool, restless, full of affliction. . (b.10 f.1 c.1 p.3) 21. *xolopihtli*. in tlahueliloc in amo cualli tecpilli, ilihuiz tlacatl, ahmozcalia xolopitli, . the bad, the evil noble [is] inconsiderate, indiscreet, stupid. . (b.10 f.1 c.4 p.16) 22. *xolopihtli*. in xolopitli tlacateccatl tlacochcalcatl, tlaohuitilia, tlamictia, atoyatl tepexitl quiteittitia. . the stupid commanding general, [or] general, causes trouble, causes death, leads one into danger. . (b.10 f.2 c.6 p.24) 23. *xolopihtli*. in xolopitli toltecatl, tlailihuizhuiani teca mocacayahuani, tlaixpachoani, iixco quizani . the stupid craftsman [is] careless --a mocker, a petty thief, a pilferer. . (b.10 f.2 c.7 p.25) 24. *xolopihtli*. xolopitli, totoli: . [he is] stupid, bird[-like]. . (b.10 f.2 c.7 p.26) 25. *xolopihtli*. in amo cualli tlamatini xolopiticitl, xolopitli, teopilpol, piale, nonotzale nonotzqui . the bad wise man [is] a stupid physician, silly, decrepit, [pretending to be] a person of trust, a counselor, advised. . (b.10 f.2 c.8 p.30) 26. *xolopihtli*. in amo cualli zoquichiuhqui, xolopitli, nextecuili, miccatzintli . the bad potter [is] silly, stupid, torpid. . (b.10 f.3 c.12 p.42) 27. *xolopihtli*. xacan, xacampa, xocomicqui, tlahuanqui, tenitl, pinotl, chontal, xolopitli, nextecuilli, xoxolotl, xoloncuatl, . [she is] vain, petty, given to bad conduct; a drunkard, savage, torpid, [like] a foreigner, an imbecile -- stupid, feeble., . (b.10 f.3 c.13 p.50) 28. *xolopihtli*. in amo cualli tlamachchiuhqui: amozcalia, xolopitli, aoompa, atlachia, amo maimati, poxacuatl, nextecuili, . the bad weaver of designs is untrained -- silly, foolish, unobservant, unskilled of hand, ignorant, stupid. . (b.10 f.3 c.14 p.52) 29. *xolopihtli*. ayac ica, aquemmachoni, xolopitli: . they are ignored, never regarded, stupid. . (b.11 f.20 c.7 p.205) _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Feb 28 20:56:33 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:56:33 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli Message-ID: Piyali nohuihuiticapoyohuan, I have a problem that probably wouldn’t be so serious if I got out more often.... “Tlacoyoctli,” “a hole” seems to be what Andrews calls a “Perfective Patientive Noun” and he gives lots of examples at the beginning of Lesson 39 in the most recent edition of his grammar. The problem is that the only verb root this noun could come from is “coyonia, nic”, “to perforate/make a hole in s.t.” But structurally it seems to come from ”coyoni,” the intransitive “to become perforated,” or an unattested and ridiculous “coyona.” It is as if “coyonia” has either lost the entire “-ia” or has reverted to the intransitive form before switching into a noun. What is going on? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 29 02:42:08 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:42:08 -0600 Subject: pixcomitl Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, I found s.t. really interesting today. In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, a “pixcomitl” is a hooked tool, made from bamboo or metal used for harvesting and shucking corn. Obviously the “pix-” would seem to come from “pixca,” but the rest of the word has puzzled me. Now I find out that a synonym is “pixconi.” This is “pixca” going to the passive “pixco” with the customary present “-ni” suffix. So “pixconi” would be an instrument for harvesting. This is interesting because this grammatical construction for naming instruments is not used in the Huasteca: in fact this is the first use of it that I have encountered. Perhaps it has been borrowed from another region where this construction is/was common. And perhaps to ease the bruised sensibilities of the Huastecan Nahuas to whom this word, “pixconi” didn’t quite feel like a noun, they cemented its nominalization by adding the absolutive “-tl” suffix, and changed the ’n” to “m” (after all, how many Nahuatl nouns can you think of that end in “-nitl”? Now think of how many nouns there are that end in “-mitl” and reduce to “-n” in the possessed form.) And this process (the first one) is used with preterite agentives in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl too. Whereas in Central variants you would have “tepahtih“ or “tepahtihqui” for “healer,” in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have “tepahtihquetl.” I know this is a lot of perhaps‘s, maybe‘s and if‘s. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Feb 28 22:07:28 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:07:28 -0500 Subject: tlacoyoctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hola, John, Don't know if this is any help, but tlacoyoctli seems to hint at another verb in the form of *coyocti, as there is another word for 'hole' and 'something with holes', which is "coyoctic". This in turn may be related to coyahua. Interesting question. Michael Quoting IDIEZ : > Piyali nohuihuiticapoyohuan, > I have a problem that probably wouldn?t be so serious if I got out > more often.... > ?Tlacoyoctli,? ?a hole? seems to be what Andrews calls a ?Perfective > Patientive Noun? and he gives lots of examples at the beginning of > Lesson 39 in the most recent edition of his grammar. The problem is > that the only verb root this noun could come from is ?coyonia, nic?, > ?to perforate/make a hole in s.t.? But structurally it seems to come > from ?coyoni,? the intransitive ?to become perforated,? or an > unattested and ridiculous ?coyona.? It is as if ?coyonia? has either > lost the entire ?-ia? or has reverted to the intransitive form before > switching into a noun. What is going on? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 29 16:32:16 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:32:16 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli In-Reply-To: <20120228170728.h9ku287fa8ggckws@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi Michael, The progression would be coyoni (verb) > coyoctli (noun) > coyocti or coyoctiya (verb) > coyoctic ([adjectival] noun). It wouldn't be coyahua or coyahuiya: that's for s.t. to become distended, like the neck of a sweater that you have to stretch out so your head can fit through. It (the example) would fit if there were a coyohua, nic., that had to do with perforating, but this word is already taken: it means to howl. Perhaps one of the more worldly, experienced participants of nahuat-l is chuckling right now in cyberspace, waiting for a convenient moment to post the answer to this question. John On Feb 28, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Hola, John, > > Don't know if this is any help, but tlacoyoctli seems to hint at another verb in the form of *coyocti, as there is another word for 'hole' and 'something with holes', which is "coyoctic". This in turn may be related to coyahua. Interesting question. > > Michael > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > >> Piyali nohuihuiticapoyohuan, >> I have a problem that probably wouldn?t be so serious if I got out >> more often.... >> ?Tlacoyoctli,? ?a hole? seems to be what Andrews calls a ?Perfective >> Patientive Noun? and he gives lots of examples at the beginning of >> Lesson 39 in the most recent edition of his grammar. The problem is >> that the only verb root this noun could come from is ?coyonia, nic?, >> ?to perforate/make a hole in s.t.? But structurally it seems to come >> from ?coyoni,? the intransitive ?to become perforated,? or an >> unattested and ridiculous ?coyona.? It is as if ?coyonia? has either >> lost the entire ?-ia? or has reverted to the intransitive form before >> switching into a noun. What is going on? >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 29 16:48:28 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:48:28 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli In-Reply-To: <20120229113441.k2wfcm7i80w0cgck@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Michael, It definitely did. I had completely forgotten that those verbal nouns that end in -ctli, don't just come from verbs ending in -ni. Your example was a reminder that they can also be formed from verbs ending in -hua. So the progression, using your example would be: coyahua (verb) > coyactli (noun) > coyacti or coyactiya (verb) > coyactic ([adjectival] noun). And I was referring to a certain older gentleman who dabbles once in a while in morphology, who is either waiting to post the explanation or is as stumped as we are. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:34 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Quoting IDIEZ : > >> Hi Michael, >> The progression would be coyoni (verb) > coyoctli (noun) > coyocti >> or coyoctiya (verb) > coyoctic ([adjectival] noun). > > Yes, aware, but i thought that might give you something to think about > in a positive direction. > > >> It wouldn't be coyahua or coyahuiya: that's for s.t. to become >> distended, like the neck of a sweater that you have to stretch out so >> your head can fit through. It (the example) would fit if there were a >> coyohua, nic., that had to do with perforating, but this word is >> already taken: it means to howl. >> Perhaps one of the more worldly, experienced participants of >> nahuat-l is chuckling right now in cyberspace, waiting for a >> convenient moment to post the answer to this question. > > Their convenient moments seem to be very few and far between. > > Michael > > > >> John >> >> On Feb 28, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: >> >>> Hola, John, >>> >>> Don't know if this is any help, but tlacoyoctli seems to hint at >>> another verb in the form of *coyocti, as there is another word for >>> 'hole' and 'something with holes', which is "coyoctic". This in turn >>> may be related to coyahua. Interesting question. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> Quoting IDIEZ : >>> >>>> Piyali nohuihuiticapoyohuan, >>>> I have a problem that probably wouldn?t be so serious if I got out >>>> more often.... >>>> ?Tlacoyoctli,? ?a hole? seems to be what Andrews calls a ?Perfective >>>> Patientive Noun? and he gives lots of examples at the beginning of >>>> Lesson 39 in the most recent edition of his grammar. The problem is >>>> that the only verb root this noun could come from is ?coyonia, nic?, >>>> ?to perforate/make a hole in s.t.? But structurally it seems to come >>>> from ?coyoni,? the intransitive ?to become perforated,? or an >>>> unattested and ridiculous ?coyona.? It is as if ?coyonia? has either >>>> lost the entire ?-ia? or has reverted to the intransitive form before >>>> switching into a noun. What is going on? >>>> John >>>> >>>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >>>> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >>>> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >>>> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >>>> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >>>> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >>>> idiez at me.com >>>> www.macehualli.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Feb 29 16:34:41 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:34:41 -0500 Subject: tlacoyoctli In-Reply-To: <63074DE3-DB35-4C89-9F31-CF1BF1BDF518@me.com> Message-ID: Quoting IDIEZ : > Hi Michael, > The progression would be coyoni (verb) > coyoctli (noun) > coyocti > or coyoctiya (verb) > coyoctic ([adjectival] noun). Yes, aware, but i thought that might give you something to think about in a positive direction. > It wouldn't be coyahua or coyahuiya: that's for s.t. to become > distended, like the neck of a sweater that you have to stretch out so > your head can fit through. It (the example) would fit if there were a > coyohua, nic., that had to do with perforating, but this word is > already taken: it means to howl. > Perhaps one of the more worldly, experienced participants of > nahuat-l is chuckling right now in cyberspace, waiting for a > convenient moment to post the answer to this question. Their convenient moments seem to be very few and far between. Michael > John > > On Feb 28, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> Hola, John, >> >> Don't know if this is any help, but tlacoyoctli seems to hint at >> another verb in the form of *coyocti, as there is another word for >> 'hole' and 'something with holes', which is "coyoctic". This in turn >> may be related to coyahua. Interesting question. >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting IDIEZ : >> >>> Piyali nohuihuiticapoyohuan, >>> I have a problem that probably wouldn?t be so serious if I got out >>> more often.... >>> ?Tlacoyoctli,? ?a hole? seems to be what Andrews calls a ?Perfective >>> Patientive Noun? and he gives lots of examples at the beginning of >>> Lesson 39 in the most recent edition of his grammar. The problem is >>> that the only verb root this noun could come from is ?coyonia, nic?, >>> ?to perforate/make a hole in s.t.? But structurally it seems to come >>> from ?coyoni,? the intransitive ?to become perforated,? or an >>> unattested and ridiculous ?coyona.? It is as if ?coyonia? has either >>> lost the entire ?-ia? or has reverted to the intransitive form before >>> switching into a noun. What is going on? >>> John >>> >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >>> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >>> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >>> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >>> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >>> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >>> idiez at me.com >>> www.macehualli.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 29 18:42:15 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:42:15 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the following form: 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed Feb 29 19:23:58 2012 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:23:58 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Muy estimado John: I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c shift I would be interested. The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb coyoqui, would work like this: tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive tlateco:, "something is cut"): tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. CAROCHI, Horacio 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los Ángeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. KARTTUNEN, Frances 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. MOLINA, Alonso de 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, México, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, México, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. Saludos desde Guanajuato, David ******************************************************* -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de IDIEZ Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli Piyali notequixpoyohuan, You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the following form: 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 29 21:34:48 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:34:48 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli In-Reply-To: <005401ccf717$afc60340$0f5209c0$@net.mx> Message-ID: David, I've never been really happy with the way people explain things having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for me to understand. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: > Muy estimado John: > > I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with > what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c > change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root > verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within > the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in > Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or > coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c > shift I would be interested. > > The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb > coyoqui, would work like this: > > tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example > tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive > tlateco:, "something is cut"): > > tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, > chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) > > CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, > ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, > ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > > CAROCHI, Horacio > 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs > (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los Ángeles, Stanford > University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. > > KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. > > MOLINA, Alonso de > 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, México, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, México, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > > Saludos desde Guanajuato, > > David > > ******************************************************* > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de IDIEZ > Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With > a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very > easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, > "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, > coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or > tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or > the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to > "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take > place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the > reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. > This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to > something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We > used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, > the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, > that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the > intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about > working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is > that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly > present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined > forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the > following form: > 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. > 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown > (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) > 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied > or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or > fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, > cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). > But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the > formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Feb 8 17:18:20 2012 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 12:18:20 -0500 Subject: CFP - 2nd Annual Nahuatl @ Yale conference Message-ID: Nahuatl meeting at Yale On May 4 and 5, 2012, the Northeastern group of Nahuatl Studies will host a conference and workshop at Yale. The schedule will include advanced Nahuatl study, group document translation, and papers by scholars. The conference will include two sessions. In one session, scholars will gather to work collectively on the translation of documents which will be shared before the meeting. Please contact the organizers if you wish to present a document for study, to make arrangements for its distribution. The second session will include the presentation of papers on aspects of the Nahuatl language and linguistics, Nahuatl texts, or Nahua ethnohistory. Scholars interested in offering a paper should contact the organizers for inclusion. Six scholars have already submitted proposals for papers, and we look forward to several more. Papers may deal with any aspect of Nahuatl or Nahua studies, from pre-contact up to the modern era. Please consider joining us in this exciting weekend, with a document for study, with a paper, or simply by attending. More details will be forthcoming as plans are made final. Lunch on Saturday will be provided for all participants. The organizers include: Caterina Pizzigoni (cp2313 at columbia.edu) John Sullivan (idiez at me.com) Louise Burkhart (burk at albany.edu) John F. Schwaller (schwallr at potsdam.edu) -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From schwallr at potsdam.edu Fri Feb 10 18:49:08 2012 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:49:08 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl meetings at Yale, registration deadline Message-ID: Colleagues, A few days ago we sent out a request for proposals for the Northeastern Group of Nahuatl Studies meeting at Yale, May 4 & 5. The response has been rewarding. Because we need to begin to plan site details and the Saturday lunch, we have been asked to have a rough head count of participants as soon as possible. If you plan on attending the meetings, please let me know by February 24. We are soliciting paper proposals and also asking folks to bring Nahuatl texts for group translation. Please also submit those proposals as soon as possible, preferably by the Feb. 24 deadline. Those who do not notify us of their attendance at the conference will certainly be welcomed, but may not be able to participate in the full range of activities. Caterina Pizzigoni (cp2313 at columbia.edu) John Sullivan (idiez at me.com) Louise Burkhart (burk at albany.edu) John F. Schwaller (schwallr at potsdam.edu) -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ixtlil at earthlink.net Sat Feb 18 17:59:50 2012 From: ixtlil at earthlink.net (ixtlil at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 11:59:50 -0600 Subject: Obscure MS Reference in Auction Catlogue of Library Of Porter Cornelius Bliss Message-ID: Porter C. Bliss (1838-1885), Secretary of Legation for the US in Mexico (1870-1874, among many other things in a fascinating career involving travels also in Brazil and Paraguay) bought the Mapa de Metlatoyuca from Colonel Juan Bautista Campos in April, 1876 for $200 and later reportedly sold it to Simon Stevens for the same sum in June of that year. The Mapa was then apparently purchased by the Department of Manuscripts of the British Museum in 1876. Mr. Stevens was active in London in that period and before promoting the Tehuantepec Railway Company, an early proposed alternative route to what eventually became the Panama Canal. The Department of Manuscripts is now part of the British Library, having been separated from the British Museum in the early 1970s. The Mapa itself has stayed with the British Museum. I have been researching the map?s history as part of an article in process on the origin of the Mapa de Metlatoyuca. The Mapa comes from the small town of Taxco in the municipio of Tetela de Ocampo, Puebla and is related to the Relacion Geografica initiative of about 1580 in that area. (The tie to Metlatoyuca is not correct and the map depicts only the small valley in which Taxco is located and not the substantial portion of Mexico around Metlatoyuca that others have proposed). In this research, I went through the auction catalogue of Mr. Bliss?s library. The auction was held by George A. Leavitt and Co., New York in July, 1885. Page 39 of the catalogue has this listing with a bold face heading. ?Unique Mexican Manuscript. 423. Inninemilitzin Oncanmotene Pua Occentetl Tlamahin Colli, etc., etc. A very curious seventeenth century manuscript written on some 750 pages in an admixture of Mexican, Spanish and Latin and of a religious character for the use of the priesthood. 4to, vellum (binding damaged and some of the pages stained). Because of its size, I thought I would mention it to see if it is already known. It by chance it is not, finding it would seem to start with the identification of the successful bidder for this lot. An early Otomi dictionary is also mentioned (published) as well as lot ?1047 Compendio del Confesionario en Mexicano y Castellano. 32 mo. Antigua, 1840? (and so also apparently published). I doubt these items have anything to do with the Mapa de MEtlatoyuca but at least one may be of interest to list members. Jerry Offner _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Mon Feb 20 20:32:08 2012 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 21:32:08 +0100 Subject: XOLOPIHTLI Message-ID: Piyali, Help, please! Would really appreciate some feedback on my reasoning for the ethymology of this word. XOLOPIHTLI is "fool" it comes from XOLOPIHTI (to joke like a fool) the passive is XOLOPIHTIHUA? If so, its sustantivo verbal de paciente would be XOLOPIHTITLI If instead the passive is XOLOPIHTILO then we'd have XOLOPIHTILLI Otherwise using the active voice, preterite tense, we could have XOLOPIHTICTLI So how do we come up with XOLOPIHTLI? And the adverb would be XOLOPIHTICA (jokingly, foolishly)? Am I completely wrong? Thanks! Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Feb 20 21:52:06 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:52:06 -0500 Subject: XOLOPIHTLI Message-ID: Quoting Susana Moraleda : > Piyali, > > Help, please! Would really appreciate some feedback on my reasoning > for the ethymology of this word. > > XOLOPIHTLI is "fool" > it comes from XOLOPIHTI (to joke like a fool) > > the passive is XOLOPIHTIHUA? Susana: The passive is formed on transitive verb stems. So, this is not possible. However, you can form what's called a "non-active derivation" that gives you the notion of "people" or French "On". I would probably say in this case your form would be xolopihtilo 'people joke around'...unless the glottal stop and the /t/ underwent assimilation as in mati to macho....***xolopichlo? No sei pero creio que no. > If so, its sustantivo verbal de paciente would be XOLOPIHTITLI To form a patientive noun, add -tli to the preterit stem. I don't know the word that well, but I imagine it forms the preterite as oxolopihtih, so the patientive would be *xolopihtihtli. > If instead the passive is XOLOPIHTILO > then we'd have XOLOPIHTILLI > > Otherwise using the active voice, preterite tense, we could have > XOLOPIHTICTLI > > So how do we come up with XOLOPIHTLI? > > And the adverb would be XOLOPIHTICA (jokingly, foolishly)? I would guess this would be xolopihtihca. Michael > > Am I completely wrong? > > Thanks! > Susana > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Feb 21 00:28:06 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:28:06 -0600 Subject: XOLOPIHTLI In-Reply-To: <20120220165206.n9jv2du1qm8gs04c@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, First of all, ?xolopihtli? is a basic morpheme, so the only thing you could divide it into would be the root, ?xolopih-? and the absolutive suffix, ?-tli?. ?xolopihti?, ?to become stupid? is derived from ?xolopihtli?, not the other way around: xolopih- + ti (inceptive verber) The past perfect form of ?xolopihti? would be ?xolopihtica? and that doubles as the adverb, ?stupidly? The above forms are attested. Theoretically you could also form an impersonal (Michael is right in saying it wouldn?t be a passive form) from ?xolopihti?. It would probably be either ?xolopihtihua? or ?xolopihtilo?, maybe meaning ?there are a lot of people making fools out of themselves (in this place or meeting, etc.)? John On Feb 20, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > >> Piyali, >> >> Help, please! Would really appreciate some feedback on my reasoning >> for the ethymology of this word. >> >> XOLOPIHTLI is "fool" >> it comes from XOLOPIHTI (to joke like a fool) >> >> the passive is XOLOPIHTIHUA? > > Susana: > > The passive is formed on transitive verb stems. So, this is not possible. > > However, you can form what's called a "non-active derivation" that > gives you the notion of "people" or French "On". > > I would probably say in this case your form would be xolopihtilo > 'people joke around'...unless the glottal stop and the /t/ underwent > assimilation as in mati to macho....***xolopichlo? No sei pero creio > que no. > > > > > >> If so, its sustantivo verbal de paciente would be XOLOPIHTITLI > > To form a patientive noun, add -tli to the preterit stem. I don't know the word that well, but I imagine it forms the preterite as oxolopihtih, so the patientive would be *xolopihtihtli. > > >> If instead the passive is XOLOPIHTILO >> then we'd have XOLOPIHTILLI >> >> Otherwise using the active voice, preterite tense, we could have >> XOLOPIHTICTLI >> >> So how do we come up with XOLOPIHTLI? >> >> And the adverb would be XOLOPIHTICA (jokingly, foolishly)? > > > I would guess this would be xolopihtihca. > > Michael > > > >> >> Am I completely wrong? >> >> Thanks! >> Susana >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Feb 21 01:21:52 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:21:52 -0500 Subject: XOLOPIHTLI In-Reply-To: <20120220165206.n9jv2du1qm8gs04c@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, John. I obviously wasn't thinking. I do a lot of that. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 22 18:28:42 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:28:42 -0600 Subject: dictionaries Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, Jim Lockhart is translating Nahuatl as Written into Spanish for publication in Mexico, and he would like to include recently published dictionaries of Classical and Modern Nahuatl in Appendix 1, "Dictionaries and how to use them." In the current edition, dictionaries by Molina, Simeon, Karttunen, Campbell, Andrews (vocabulary), Brewer and Brewer (1971), Key and Ritchie de Key (1953), and Jonathan Amith's work in progress are mentioned. Please respond with any information you may have regarding manuscript, print and online publications, as well as works in progress. Once I get a master list compiled, I'll post it here. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Feb 24 18:19:44 2012 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:19:44 -0500 Subject: XOLOPIHTLI In-Reply-To: <20120220202152.f62si6oe0wosso8s@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I searched through my amate card file of the Florentine Codex and found these examples of the tli morpheme. |8-) Joe xolopihtli 1. *cohuaxolopihtzintli*. ano tle itlatlacol, amo tecuani zaza ye cohuatl: cohuaxolopitzintli, zazan molhui cohuatzintli: ayellele, ayeltzoyo. . also it is inoffensive, not poisonous; an ordinary serpent, a stupid little snake, a very useless little snake -- harmless, . . (b.11 f.9 c.5 p.83) 2. *tequixolopihtli*. in tlahueliloc tepiltzin tlatlahueliloc, zan tlatlahueliloc, tzontetl, yollochico, yollotlahueliloc, cuexcochcoyoc, ahtecacqui, tlamaxacualoani, ixtotomac, ihciccala, topal, chamatl, ahtlanonotzalli, tequixolopitli, ahmo cana, ahmo quicui in nayotl, in tayotl. . one's bad son [is] perverse, wicked, rebellious; a vile brute -- mad, deranged, disobedient; one who ignores commands; a fool, lewd, gaudy, vain, untrained; a dunce who accepts not, who receives not the counsel of mother [and] father. . (b.10 f.1 c.1 p.2) 3. *timoxolopihcuitia*. timoxolopicuitia: za xomolco, za tlayohuayan tihuetztoc. . "thou acknowledgest thyself a fool just lying in the corner, in the darkness." . (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.260) 4. *tixolopihtli*. amo no tiquechpilcatiaz, amo cenca titoloz, amo timonacacicquetztiaz, amo ahuic titlatlachixtiaz, amo tinanacaztlachixtiaz: inic amo mopan mitoz ca tixolopitli, ca titequimacehualli: ca acententli, ca acencamatl titlamactli, titequiicnopilpol: ca motequiicnopillo timaitia. . "also thou art not to hang thy head, not to incline thy head much, not to stand up off balance, not to look sideways, not to look out of the corner of the eyes, lest it be said of thee that thou art an imbecile, very much a commoner, that thou hast not been counseled, that thou art very much an orphan, that thou bringest thy orphanhood upon thyself." . (b.6 f.10 c.22 p.122) 5. *tixolopihtli*. amo no titzatziz, inic amo tixolopitli, tixtotomac, timillacatl, titequimillacatl ipan timachoz: . also thou art not to cry out, lest thou be known as an imbecile, a shameless one, a rustic, very much a rustic. . (b.6 f.10 c.22 p.122) 6. *tlacaxolopihtli*. in tlahueliloc iyolloco cihuatl, tlacaxolopitli, totompotla, nenquizqui, nempoliuhqui, nenempotla, . the bad middle-aged woman [is] foolish, stupid, useless, worthless, dumb. . (b.10 f.1 c.3 p.12) 7. *tlacaxolopihtli*. in tlahueliloc tepiltzin, yollotlahueliloc, yollochico yollonecuil, yollocuecuech, tlacaxolopitli, tlahelpol, tlahelconepol . the bad noble [is] mad, a vile brute -- wicked, perverted, foolish, revolting; a vile child. . (b.10 f.1 c.5 p.19) 8. *tlacaxolopihtli*. in amo cualli teichpoch: yolloitlacauhqui, ahuel monotza, tzontetl, cihuacuecuel, cuecuechtli cuecuetol, tlacapoyotl, tlacaxolopitli, . the bad maiden [is] corrupt, incorrigible, rebellious -- a proud woman, shameless, brazen, treacherous, stupid. . (b.10 f.3 c.13 p.47) 9. *tlaxolopihcachihua*. tlaticehua, tlatlapalmictia, tlatlayohuallotia, tlanenecuillalia, tlaxolopicachihua, tlaciuhcachihua tlaixtomahua . he paints without luster, ruins colors, blurs them, paints askew -- acts impetuously, hastily, without reflection. . (b.10 f.2 c.8 p.28) 10. *xolopihcayotl*. amo za tlahuanayotl caci, amo tequi xolopicayotl o, . that would be but virtual drunkenness, extreme foolishness. . (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.108) 11. *xolopihcayotl*. auh imohnica, in tepotzco xolopicayotl: a pillotl, coneyotl toconchihua: . and in their absence we perform foolishness, babyishness, childishness. . (b.6 f.12 c.25 p.143) 12. *xolopihcayotl*. anezcalicayotl, xolopicayotl, . imprudence, foolishness . (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.251) 13. *xolopihcayotl*. quitoznequi: in aquin amo mozcalia, amo huellatoa, amo huel quichihua in tlein tequitilo: ipan nemi in amo nezcalicayotl, in xolopicayotl. . it means the one who is not prudent, not well spoken; who does not well that which he is given as a task, who lives in imprudence, in foolishness. . (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.251) 14. *xolopihilama*. amo cualli citli xolopihilama, tetlayohuayan aquiani teohuitiliani . the bad grandmother [is] a stupid old woman, a leader of others into darkness, a bad example. . (b.10 f.1 c.1 p.5) 15. *xolopihmeh*. e. in tlateotoquiliztli, in aquimamatcahuaque, in xolopime, oquitzintique, in nican tlalticpac: . e. the witless, the senseless began idolatry here upon earth. . (b.1 f.3 c.Ap p.58) 16. *xolopihti*. ihilihuizti, xohxoloti, xolopiti, mahuilquixtia, ahuilquiza . she is inconsiderate, imbecile, stupid; she brings dishonor, disgrace. . (b.10 f.3 c.13 p.47) 17. *xolopihticitl*. in amo cualli tlamatini xolopiticitl, xolopitli, teopilpol, piale, nonotzale nonotzqui . the bad wise man [is] a stupid physician, silly, decrepit, [pretending to be] a person of trust, a counselor, advised. . (b.10 f.2 c.8 p.30) 18. *xolopihtli*. inin tlatolli, itechpa mitoaya: in amo mozcalia, in amo tlachia, xolopitli, amo tlacaqui: . this saying was said of the untrained, the disregarded, the stupid, the one who heeded not. . (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.255) 19. *xolopihtli*. in tenan tlahueliloc, in amo cualli, tlacanexquimilli, xolopitli, tonalcochqui, maxixilopahuax, tlanempopoloani, tetlaixpachilhuiani, tetlanahualchichihuiliani, tetlanahualpolhuiani, . one's bad mother [is] evil, dull, stupid, sleepy, lazy; [she is] a squanderer, a petty thief, a deceiver, a fraud. . (b.10 f.1 c.1 p.2) 20. *xolopihtli*. in piltontli tlahueliloc cuitlatzol quitemmatqui, ehtic, xocopatic, ahoompa xolopitli nextecuili, ahompa eehua, oolpatlachehua, cocopichcholoa, tompox poxacua, yolpoliuhqui, yollotlahueliloc, ahnenqui, teopoliuhqui . the bad boy [is] lazy, indolent, sluggish; a lump of flesh with two eyes; a confused, stupid imbecile who understands things backwards, who does things backwards; rude, dull, pilfering, agitated; a fool, restless, full of affliction. . (b.10 f.1 c.1 p.3) 21. *xolopihtli*. in tlahueliloc in amo cualli tecpilli, ilihuiz tlacatl, ahmozcalia xolopitli, . the bad, the evil noble [is] inconsiderate, indiscreet, stupid. . (b.10 f.1 c.4 p.16) 22. *xolopihtli*. in xolopitli tlacateccatl tlacochcalcatl, tlaohuitilia, tlamictia, atoyatl tepexitl quiteittitia. . the stupid commanding general, [or] general, causes trouble, causes death, leads one into danger. . (b.10 f.2 c.6 p.24) 23. *xolopihtli*. in xolopitli toltecatl, tlailihuizhuiani teca mocacayahuani, tlaixpachoani, iixco quizani . the stupid craftsman [is] careless --a mocker, a petty thief, a pilferer. . (b.10 f.2 c.7 p.25) 24. *xolopihtli*. xolopitli, totoli: . [he is] stupid, bird[-like]. . (b.10 f.2 c.7 p.26) 25. *xolopihtli*. in amo cualli tlamatini xolopiticitl, xolopitli, teopilpol, piale, nonotzale nonotzqui . the bad wise man [is] a stupid physician, silly, decrepit, [pretending to be] a person of trust, a counselor, advised. . (b.10 f.2 c.8 p.30) 26. *xolopihtli*. in amo cualli zoquichiuhqui, xolopitli, nextecuili, miccatzintli . the bad potter [is] silly, stupid, torpid. . (b.10 f.3 c.12 p.42) 27. *xolopihtli*. xacan, xacampa, xocomicqui, tlahuanqui, tenitl, pinotl, chontal, xolopitli, nextecuilli, xoxolotl, xoloncuatl, . [she is] vain, petty, given to bad conduct; a drunkard, savage, torpid, [like] a foreigner, an imbecile -- stupid, feeble., . (b.10 f.3 c.13 p.50) 28. *xolopihtli*. in amo cualli tlamachchiuhqui: amozcalia, xolopitli, aoompa, atlachia, amo maimati, poxacuatl, nextecuili, . the bad weaver of designs is untrained -- silly, foolish, unobservant, unskilled of hand, ignorant, stupid. . (b.10 f.3 c.14 p.52) 29. *xolopihtli*. ayac ica, aquemmachoni, xolopitli: . they are ignored, never regarded, stupid. . (b.11 f.20 c.7 p.205) _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Feb 28 20:56:33 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:56:33 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli Message-ID: Piyali nohuihuiticapoyohuan, I have a problem that probably wouldn?t be so serious if I got out more often.... ?Tlacoyoctli,? ?a hole? seems to be what Andrews calls a ?Perfective Patientive Noun? and he gives lots of examples at the beginning of Lesson 39 in the most recent edition of his grammar. The problem is that the only verb root this noun could come from is ?coyonia, nic?, ?to perforate/make a hole in s.t.? But structurally it seems to come from ?coyoni,? the intransitive ?to become perforated,? or an unattested and ridiculous ?coyona.? It is as if ?coyonia? has either lost the entire ?-ia? or has reverted to the intransitive form before switching into a noun. What is going on? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 29 02:42:08 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:42:08 -0600 Subject: pixcomitl Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, I found s.t. really interesting today. In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, a ?pixcomitl? is a hooked tool, made from bamboo or metal used for harvesting and shucking corn. Obviously the ?pix-? would seem to come from ?pixca,? but the rest of the word has puzzled me. Now I find out that a synonym is ?pixconi.? This is ?pixca? going to the passive ?pixco? with the customary present ?-ni? suffix. So ?pixconi? would be an instrument for harvesting. This is interesting because this grammatical construction for naming instruments is not used in the Huasteca: in fact this is the first use of it that I have encountered. Perhaps it has been borrowed from another region where this construction is/was common. And perhaps to ease the bruised sensibilities of the Huastecan Nahuas to whom this word, ?pixconi? didn?t quite feel like a noun, they cemented its nominalization by adding the absolutive ?-tl? suffix, and changed the ?n? to ?m? (after all, how many Nahuatl nouns can you think of that end in ?-nitl?? Now think of how many nouns there are that end in ?-mitl? and reduce to ?-n? in the possessed form.) And this process (the first one) is used with preterite agentives in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl too. Whereas in Central variants you would have ?tepahtih? or ?tepahtihqui? for ?healer,? in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have ?tepahtihquetl.? I know this is a lot of perhaps?s, maybe?s and if?s. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Feb 28 22:07:28 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:07:28 -0500 Subject: tlacoyoctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hola, John, Don't know if this is any help, but tlacoyoctli seems to hint at another verb in the form of *coyocti, as there is another word for 'hole' and 'something with holes', which is "coyoctic". This in turn may be related to coyahua. Interesting question. Michael Quoting IDIEZ : > Piyali nohuihuiticapoyohuan, > I have a problem that probably wouldn?t be so serious if I got out > more often.... > ?Tlacoyoctli,? ?a hole? seems to be what Andrews calls a ?Perfective > Patientive Noun? and he gives lots of examples at the beginning of > Lesson 39 in the most recent edition of his grammar. The problem is > that the only verb root this noun could come from is ?coyonia, nic?, > ?to perforate/make a hole in s.t.? But structurally it seems to come > from ?coyoni,? the intransitive ?to become perforated,? or an > unattested and ridiculous ?coyona.? It is as if ?coyonia? has either > lost the entire ?-ia? or has reverted to the intransitive form before > switching into a noun. What is going on? > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 29 16:32:16 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:32:16 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli In-Reply-To: <20120228170728.h9ku287fa8ggckws@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi Michael, The progression would be coyoni (verb) > coyoctli (noun) > coyocti or coyoctiya (verb) > coyoctic ([adjectival] noun). It wouldn't be coyahua or coyahuiya: that's for s.t. to become distended, like the neck of a sweater that you have to stretch out so your head can fit through. It (the example) would fit if there were a coyohua, nic., that had to do with perforating, but this word is already taken: it means to howl. Perhaps one of the more worldly, experienced participants of nahuat-l is chuckling right now in cyberspace, waiting for a convenient moment to post the answer to this question. John On Feb 28, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Hola, John, > > Don't know if this is any help, but tlacoyoctli seems to hint at another verb in the form of *coyocti, as there is another word for 'hole' and 'something with holes', which is "coyoctic". This in turn may be related to coyahua. Interesting question. > > Michael > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > >> Piyali nohuihuiticapoyohuan, >> I have a problem that probably wouldn?t be so serious if I got out >> more often.... >> ?Tlacoyoctli,? ?a hole? seems to be what Andrews calls a ?Perfective >> Patientive Noun? and he gives lots of examples at the beginning of >> Lesson 39 in the most recent edition of his grammar. The problem is >> that the only verb root this noun could come from is ?coyonia, nic?, >> ?to perforate/make a hole in s.t.? But structurally it seems to come >> from ?coyoni,? the intransitive ?to become perforated,? or an >> unattested and ridiculous ?coyona.? It is as if ?coyonia? has either >> lost the entire ?-ia? or has reverted to the intransitive form before >> switching into a noun. What is going on? >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 29 16:48:28 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:48:28 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli In-Reply-To: <20120229113441.k2wfcm7i80w0cgck@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Michael, It definitely did. I had completely forgotten that those verbal nouns that end in -ctli, don't just come from verbs ending in -ni. Your example was a reminder that they can also be formed from verbs ending in -hua. So the progression, using your example would be: coyahua (verb) > coyactli (noun) > coyacti or coyactiya (verb) > coyactic ([adjectival] noun). And I was referring to a certain older gentleman who dabbles once in a while in morphology, who is either waiting to post the explanation or is as stumped as we are. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:34 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Quoting IDIEZ : > >> Hi Michael, >> The progression would be coyoni (verb) > coyoctli (noun) > coyocti >> or coyoctiya (verb) > coyoctic ([adjectival] noun). > > Yes, aware, but i thought that might give you something to think about > in a positive direction. > > >> It wouldn't be coyahua or coyahuiya: that's for s.t. to become >> distended, like the neck of a sweater that you have to stretch out so >> your head can fit through. It (the example) would fit if there were a >> coyohua, nic., that had to do with perforating, but this word is >> already taken: it means to howl. >> Perhaps one of the more worldly, experienced participants of >> nahuat-l is chuckling right now in cyberspace, waiting for a >> convenient moment to post the answer to this question. > > Their convenient moments seem to be very few and far between. > > Michael > > > >> John >> >> On Feb 28, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: >> >>> Hola, John, >>> >>> Don't know if this is any help, but tlacoyoctli seems to hint at >>> another verb in the form of *coyocti, as there is another word for >>> 'hole' and 'something with holes', which is "coyoctic". This in turn >>> may be related to coyahua. Interesting question. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> Quoting IDIEZ : >>> >>>> Piyali nohuihuiticapoyohuan, >>>> I have a problem that probably wouldn?t be so serious if I got out >>>> more often.... >>>> ?Tlacoyoctli,? ?a hole? seems to be what Andrews calls a ?Perfective >>>> Patientive Noun? and he gives lots of examples at the beginning of >>>> Lesson 39 in the most recent edition of his grammar. The problem is >>>> that the only verb root this noun could come from is ?coyonia, nic?, >>>> ?to perforate/make a hole in s.t.? But structurally it seems to come >>>> from ?coyoni,? the intransitive ?to become perforated,? or an >>>> unattested and ridiculous ?coyona.? It is as if ?coyonia? has either >>>> lost the entire ?-ia? or has reverted to the intransitive form before >>>> switching into a noun. What is going on? >>>> John >>>> >>>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >>>> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >>>> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >>>> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >>>> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >>>> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >>>> idiez at me.com >>>> www.macehualli.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Feb 29 16:34:41 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:34:41 -0500 Subject: tlacoyoctli In-Reply-To: <63074DE3-DB35-4C89-9F31-CF1BF1BDF518@me.com> Message-ID: Quoting IDIEZ : > Hi Michael, > The progression would be coyoni (verb) > coyoctli (noun) > coyocti > or coyoctiya (verb) > coyoctic ([adjectival] noun). Yes, aware, but i thought that might give you something to think about in a positive direction. > It wouldn't be coyahua or coyahuiya: that's for s.t. to become > distended, like the neck of a sweater that you have to stretch out so > your head can fit through. It (the example) would fit if there were a > coyohua, nic., that had to do with perforating, but this word is > already taken: it means to howl. > Perhaps one of the more worldly, experienced participants of > nahuat-l is chuckling right now in cyberspace, waiting for a > convenient moment to post the answer to this question. Their convenient moments seem to be very few and far between. Michael > John > > On Feb 28, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> Hola, John, >> >> Don't know if this is any help, but tlacoyoctli seems to hint at >> another verb in the form of *coyocti, as there is another word for >> 'hole' and 'something with holes', which is "coyoctic". This in turn >> may be related to coyahua. Interesting question. >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting IDIEZ : >> >>> Piyali nohuihuiticapoyohuan, >>> I have a problem that probably wouldn?t be so serious if I got out >>> more often.... >>> ?Tlacoyoctli,? ?a hole? seems to be what Andrews calls a ?Perfective >>> Patientive Noun? and he gives lots of examples at the beginning of >>> Lesson 39 in the most recent edition of his grammar. The problem is >>> that the only verb root this noun could come from is ?coyonia, nic?, >>> ?to perforate/make a hole in s.t.? But structurally it seems to come >>> from ?coyoni,? the intransitive ?to become perforated,? or an >>> unattested and ridiculous ?coyona.? It is as if ?coyonia? has either >>> lost the entire ?-ia? or has reverted to the intransitive form before >>> switching into a noun. What is going on? >>> John >>> >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >>> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >>> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >>> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >>> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >>> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >>> idiez at me.com >>> www.macehualli.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 29 18:42:15 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:42:15 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the following form: 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Wed Feb 29 19:23:58 2012 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:23:58 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Muy estimado John: I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c shift I would be interested. The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb coyoqui, would work like this: tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive tlateco:, "something is cut"): tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. CAROCHI, Horacio 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los ?ngeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. KARTTUNEN, Frances 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. MOLINA, Alonso de 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. Saludos desde Guanajuato, David ******************************************************* -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de IDIEZ Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli Piyali notequixpoyohuan, You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the following form: 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Feb 29 21:34:48 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:34:48 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli In-Reply-To: <005401ccf717$afc60340$0f5209c0$@net.mx> Message-ID: David, I've never been really happy with the way people explain things having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for me to understand. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: > Muy estimado John: > > I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with > what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c > change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root > verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within > the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in > Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or > coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c > shift I would be interested. > > The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb > coyoqui, would work like this: > > tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example > tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive > tlateco:, "something is cut"): > > tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, > chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) > > CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, > ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, > ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > > CAROCHI, Horacio > 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs > (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los ?ngeles, Stanford > University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. > > KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. > > MOLINA, Alonso de > 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > > Saludos desde Guanajuato, > > David > > ******************************************************* > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de IDIEZ > Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With > a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very > easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, > "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, > coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or > tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or > the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to > "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take > place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the > reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. > This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to > something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We > used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, > the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, > that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the > intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about > working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is > that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly > present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined > forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the > following form: > 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. > 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown > (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) > 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied > or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or > fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, > cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). > But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the > formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl