From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Mar 1 02:51:31 2012 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:51:31 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli In-Reply-To: <5DAF4AC0-469C-4C71-9739-D45A7FC6D119@me.com> Message-ID: Muy apreciado John: It’s good to be critical and look hard at these things. There is, in fact, a simpler explanation for both tlacoyoctli and tlatectli, deriving the nouns from the preterite stems of the verbs. This is what Campbell and Karttunen (1989a: 240) call “patientive state nouns”, as opposed to what they call “resultant state nouns”,which are based on the passive stem (which they prefer to call “nonactive”), as described in my last post. The results of both processes have similar or identical meanings, so it’s difficult to choose between the two forms. The “resultant state” explanations would go like this: Tlacoyoctli: tla + (coyoqui -i) + tli tlatectli: tla + (tequi - i) + tli (Although I’m still not sure about this unattested verb coyoqui, where the expected form would be coyo:ni.) If you (with friar William of Ockham) prefer the simpler explanations of these words, these analyses would also work. Andrews (2003: 364, 365) prefers to think of a “nonactive suffix o:”, which would simplify the “(lo: - o:) part of my previous analysis to just “o:.” I prefer to write out the long form, based on the assumtion that o: is derived from lo:, just to make things a bit more explicit. The more complicated analysis (“patientive state nouns”) given by Campbell and Karttunen seem to be inspired by Carochi’s explanation of what he calls “los verbales en tli, y li” (2001: 182-187 [lbook 3,chapter 3]). (Both Joe and Fran are listeros; perhaps they can shed some light on this.) Carochi includes tlatectli in his examples, then explains: “Formanse de la voz passiua del presente de indicatiuo desta manera que si el passiuo es regular, idest, si acaba in lo, se muda la o, vltima en li, verbi gracia. chi:hua hazer, forma el passiuo chihualo, buelta la o, en li, y antepuesto el tla, haze tlachi:hualli, cosa hecha, obra, criatura. Pero si el verbo no formare regularmente el passiuo, no acabarà en lo, aunque si, en o, de ordinario, y en tal caso la o, se mudarà en tli; como tequi cortar, tiene el passiuo, teco, boluiendo su o, en tli, con el tla, haze el verbal tlatectli, cosa cortada. [ ]” Carochi says tlatectli is formed on the passive stem, which makes the analysis I gave in my last post my favorite hypothesis, although the alternative mentioned above can’t be ruled out, as far as I can see at this point. Campbell and Karttunen give both derivations for tlatectli: “resultant state” (based on the passive) and “patientive state” (based on the preterite) (1989a: 239, 240). As for evidence of the intervening steps between tequi and tlatectli, there are attestations of teco: in the Carochi quote given above, in Sahagún (see Wimmer, undated) and at the core of tlateco:ni, “cutting instrument” (Karttunen, 1985: 295; Molina, 1571b: 134v; Wimmer, undated). Molina’s (1571b: 24r) listing of coyoctic, “agujero, o cosa agujerada” is also relevant to the discussion, as has been pointed out in this thread. I hope this makes things a bit more clear. These sorts of changes are what makes Nahuatl morphological analysis a challenge; without a clear understanding of the underlying morphophonological processes it can be really hard to see what’s going on. Saludos cordiales, David ******************************** Sources not cited in my last post: ANDREWS, J. Richard 2003a Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. 2003b Workbook for introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. WIMMER, Alexis undated Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/; access: 29 February 2012). De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 15:35 Para: David Wright CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli David, I've never been really happy with the way people explain things having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for me to understand. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: Muy estimado John: I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c shift I would be interested. The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb coyoqui, would work like this: tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive tlateco:, "something is cut"): tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. CAROCHI, Horacio 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los Ángeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. KARTTUNEN, Frances 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. MOLINA, Alonso de 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, México, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, México, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. Saludos desde Guanajuato, David ******************************************************* -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de IDIEZ Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli Piyali notequixpoyohuan, You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the following form: 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 1 04:39:33 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:39:33 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli In-Reply-To: <000001ccf756$356d5eb0$a0481c10$@net.mx> Message-ID: Nopilhuampoh David, Perhaps instead of coyoqui, the alternate form would have been coyoca, given that the reduplicative of coyoni is cocoyoca. But it still doesn’t resolve the problem of how you get from coyonia’s preterite root, coyonih, to tlacoyontli/tlacoyoctli. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 8:51 PM, David Wright wrote: > Muy apreciado John: > > It’s good to be critical and look hard at these things. There is, in fact, a simpler explanation for both tlacoyoctli and tlatectli, deriving the nouns from the preterite stems of the verbs. This is what Campbell and Karttunen (1989a: 240) call “patientive state nouns”, as opposed to what they call “resultant state nouns”,which are based on the passive stem (which they prefer to call “nonactive”), as described in my last post. The results of both processes have similar or identical meanings, so it’s difficult to choose between the two forms. > > The “resultant state” explanations would go like this: > > Tlacoyoctli: tla + (coyoqui -i) + tli > > tlatectli: tla + (tequi - i) + tli > > (Although I’m still not sure about this unattested verb coyoqui, where the expected form would be coyo:ni.) > > If you (with friar William of Ockham) prefer the simpler explanations of these words, these analyses would also work. > > Andrews (2003: 364, 365) prefers to think of a “nonactive suffix o:”, which would simplify the “(lo: - o:) part of my previous analysis to just “o:.” I prefer to write out the long form, based on the assumtion that o: is derived from lo:, just to make things a bit more explicit. > > The more complicated analysis (“patientive state nouns”) given by Campbell and Karttunen seem to be inspired by Carochi’s explanation of what he calls “los verbales en tli, y li” (2001: 182-187 [lbook 3,chapter 3]). (Both Joe and Fran are listeros; perhaps they can shed some light on this.) Carochi includes tlatectli in his examples, then explains: > > “Formanse de la voz passiua del presente de indicatiuo desta manera que si el passiuo es regular, idest, si acaba in lo, se muda la o, vltima en li, verbi gracia. chi:hua hazer, forma el passiuo chihualo, buelta la o, en li, y antepuesto el tla, haze tlachi:hualli, cosa hecha, obra, criatura. Pero si el verbo no formare regularmente el passiuo, no acabarà en lo, aunque si, en o, de ordinario, y en tal caso la o, se mudarà en tli; como tequi cortar, tiene el passiuo, teco, boluiendo su o, en tli, con el tla, haze el verbal tlatectli, cosa cortada. […]” > > Carochi says tlatectli is formed on the passive stem, which makes the analysis I gave in my last post my favorite hypothesis, although the alternative mentioned above can’t be ruled out, as far as I can see at this point. Campbell and Karttunen give both derivations for tlatectli: “resultant state” (based on the passive) and “patientive state” (based on the preterite) (1989a: 239, 240). > > As for evidence of the intervening steps between tequi and tlatectli, there are attestations of teco: in the Carochi quote given above, in Sahagún (see Wimmer, undated) and at the core of tlateco:ni, “cutting instrument” (Karttunen, 1985: 295; Molina, 1571b: 134v; Wimmer, undated). Molina’s (1571b: 24r) listing of coyoctic, “agujero, o cosa agujerada” is also relevant to the discussion, as has been pointed out in this thread. > > I hope this makes things a bit more clear. These sorts of changes are what makes Nahuatl morphological analysis a challenge; without a clear understanding of the underlying morphophonological processes it can be really hard to see what’s going on. > > Saludos cordiales, > > David > > ******************************** > Sources not cited in my last post: > > ANDREWS, J. Richard > 2003a Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. > > 2003b Workbook for introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. > > WIMMER, Alexis > > undated Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/; access: 29 February 2012). > > De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] > Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 15:35 > Para: David Wright > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli > > David, > I've never been really happy with the way people explain things having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for me to understand. > John > > On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: > > Muy estimado John: > > I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with > what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c > change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root > verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within > the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in > Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or > coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c > shift I would be interested. > > The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb > coyoqui, would work like this: > > tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example > tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive > tlateco:, "something is cut"): > > tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, > chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) > > CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, > ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, > ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > > CAROCHI, Horacio > 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs > (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los Ángeles, Stanford > University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. > > KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. > > MOLINA, Alonso de > 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, México, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, México, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > > Saludos desde Guanajuato, > > David > > ******************************************************* > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de IDIEZ > Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With > a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very > easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, > "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, > coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or > tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or > the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to > "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take > place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the > reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. > This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to > something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We > used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, > the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, > that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the > intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about > working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is > that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly > present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined > forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the > following form: > 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. > 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown > (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) > 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied > or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or > fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, > cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). > But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the > formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Mar 1 17:26:58 2012 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 11:26:58 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli In-Reply-To: <180AA956-32B8-400A-8B9E-29E4DFB95195@me.com> Message-ID: Estimado John: Neither coyoca nor coyonia: will take you to tlacoyoctli, as far as I can see. That’s why I suggested the unattested transitive verb coyoqui, as I can’t come up with a better explanation. I’m aware that this is a last-ditch attempt to solve the problem you posted, but it seems to work within the norms of (early colonial central Mexican) Nahuatl, either by way of the “resultant state” or the “patientive state” hypotheses. Un abrazo, David De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 22:40 Para: David Wright CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli Nopilhuampoh David, Perhaps instead of coyoqui, the alternate form would have been coyoca, given that the reduplicative of coyoni is cocoyoca. But it still doesn’t resolve the problem of how you get from coyonia’s preterite root, coyonih, to tlacoyontli/tlacoyoctli. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 8:51 PM, David Wright wrote: Muy apreciado John: It’s good to be critical and look hard at these things. There is, in fact, a simpler explanation for both tlacoyoctli and tlatectli, deriving the nouns from the preterite stems of the verbs. This is what Campbell and Karttunen (1989a: 240) call “patientive state nouns”, as opposed to what they call “resultant state nouns”,which are based on the passive stem (which they prefer to call “nonactive”), as described in my last post. The results of both processes have similar or identical meanings, so it’s difficult to choose between the two forms. The “resultant state” explanations would go like this: Tlacoyoctli: tla + (coyoqui -i) + tli tlatectli: tla + (tequi - i) + tli (Although I’m still not sure about this unattested verb coyoqui, where the expected form would be coyo:ni.) If you (with friar William of Ockham) prefer the simpler explanations of these words, these analyses would also work. Andrews (2003: 364, 365) prefers to think of a “nonactive suffix o:”, which would simplify the “(lo: - o:) part of my previous analysis to just “o:.” I prefer to write out the long form, based on the assumtion that o: is derived from lo:, just to make things a bit more explicit. The more complicated analysis (“patientive state nouns”) given by Campbell and Karttunen seem to be inspired by Carochi’s explanation of what he calls “los verbales en tli, y li” (2001: 182-187 [lbook 3,chapter 3]). (Both Joe and Fran are listeros; perhaps they can shed some light on this.) Carochi includes tlatectli in his examples, then explains: “Formanse de la voz passiua del presente de indicatiuo desta manera que si el passiuo es regular, idest, si acaba in lo, se muda la o, vltima en li, verbi gracia. chi:hua hazer, forma el passiuo chihualo, buelta la o, en li, y antepuesto el tla, haze tlachi:hualli, cosa hecha, obra, criatura. Pero si el verbo no formare regularmente el passiuo, no acabarà en lo, aunque si, en o, de ordinario, y en tal caso la o, se mudarà en tli; como tequi cortar, tiene el passiuo, teco, boluiendo su o, en tli, con el tla, haze el verbal tlatectli, cosa cortada. [ ]” Carochi says tlatectli is formed on the passive stem, which makes the analysis I gave in my last post my favorite hypothesis, although the alternative mentioned above can’t be ruled out, as far as I can see at this point. Campbell and Karttunen give both derivations for tlatectli: “resultant state” (based on the passive) and “patientive state” (based on the preterite) (1989a: 239, 240). As for evidence of the intervening steps between tequi and tlatectli, there are attestations of teco: in the Carochi quote given above, in Sahagún (see Wimmer, undated) and at the core of tlateco:ni, “cutting instrument” (Karttunen, 1985: 295; Molina, 1571b: 134v; Wimmer, undated). Molina’s (1571b: 24r) listing of coyoctic, “agujero, o cosa agujerada” is also relevant to the discussion, as has been pointed out in this thread. I hope this makes things a bit more clear. These sorts of changes are what makes Nahuatl morphological analysis a challenge; without a clear understanding of the underlying morphophonological processes it can be really hard to see what’s going on. Saludos cordiales, David ******************************** Sources not cited in my last post: ANDREWS, J. Richard 2003a Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. 2003b Workbook for introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. WIMMER, Alexis undated Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/; access: 29 February 2012). De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 15:35 Para: David Wright CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli David, I've never been really happy with the way people explain things having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for me to understand. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: Muy estimado John: I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c shift I would be interested. The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb coyoqui, would work like this: tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive tlateco:, "something is cut"): tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. CAROCHI, Horacio 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los Ángeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. KARTTUNEN, Frances 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. MOLINA, Alonso de 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, México, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, México, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. Saludos desde Guanajuato, David ******************************************************* -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de IDIEZ Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli Piyali notequixpoyohuan, You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the following form: 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 1 17:39:10 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 12:39:10 -0500 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ In-Reply-To: <000001ccf756$356d5eb0$a0481c10$@net.mx> Message-ID: Nahuatlatos estimados, "Old Andrews," (_Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_, University of Texas Press, Austin, 1975, page 245) seems to have something to say about all this: 1. "Intransitive thematic verbs of the -ni kind...[our coyoni]...may have root-based patientive nouns formed on a special stem consisting of the root plus -c, -x, -z, or -ch, the choice depending on certain factors no longer evident in the surface grammar. The long vowel of the root is made short." An example that appears to relate to this case is tlapactli 'a thing that has become broken' from tlapani. (Note bien que que esta palabra no es tlapa:ctli 'cosa lavada') 2. "Intransitive thematic verbsd of the -hua kind may have root-based patientive nouns formed on a special stem created by adding -c to the root. The long vowel of the root is made short before the -c." The example is pitzactli 'a thing that has become narrowed or thin' from 'pitza:hua Michael Quoting David Wright : > Muy apreciado John: > > > > It’s good to be critical and look hard at these things. There is, in fact, a > simpler explanation for both tlacoyoctli and tlatectli, deriving the nouns > from the preterite stems of the verbs. This is what Campbell and Karttunen > (1989a: 240) call “patientive state nouns”, as opposed to what they call > “resultant state nouns”,which are based on the passive stem (which they > prefer to call “nonactive”), as described in my last post. The results of > both processes have similar or identical meanings, so it’s difficult to > choose between the two forms. > > > > The “resultant state” explanations would go like this: > > > > Tlacoyoctli: tla + (coyoqui -i) + tli > > tlatectli: tla + (tequi - i) + tli > > > > (Although I’m still not sure about this unattested verb coyoqui, where the > expected form would be coyo:ni.) > > > > If you (with friar William of Ockham) prefer the simpler explanations of > these words, these analyses would also work. > > > > Andrews (2003: 364, 365) prefers to think of a “nonactive suffix o:”, which > would simplify the “(lo: - o:) part of my previous analysis to just “o:.” I > prefer to write out the long form, based on the assumtion that o: is derived > from lo:, just to make things a bit more explicit. > > > > The more complicated analysis (“patientive state nouns”) given by Campbell > and Karttunen seem to be inspired by Carochi’s explanation of what he calls > “los verbales en tli, y li” (2001: 182-187 [lbook 3,chapter 3]). (Both Joe > and Fran are listeros; perhaps they can shed some light on this.) Carochi > includes tlatectli in his examples, then explains: > > > > “Formanse de la voz passiua del presente de indicatiuo desta manera que si > el passiuo es regular, idest, si acaba in lo, se muda la o, vltima en li, > verbi gracia. chi:hua hazer, forma el passiuo chihualo, buelta la o, en li, > y antepuesto el tla, haze tlachi:hualli, cosa hecha, obra, criatura. Pero si > el verbo no formare regularmente el passiuo, no acabarà en lo, aunque si, en > o, de ordinario, y en tal caso la o, se mudarà en tli; como tequi cortar, > tiene el passiuo, teco, boluiendo su o, en tli, con el tla, haze el verbal > tlatectli, cosa cortada. [ ]” > > > > Carochi says tlatectli is formed on the passive stem, which makes the > analysis I gave in my last post my favorite hypothesis, although the > alternative mentioned above can’t be ruled out, as far as I can see at this > point. Campbell and Karttunen give both derivations for tlatectli: > “resultant state” (based on the passive) and “patientive state” (based on > the preterite) (1989a: 239, 240). > > > > As for evidence of the intervening steps between tequi and tlatectli, there > are attestations of teco: in the Carochi quote given above, in Sahagún (see > Wimmer, undated) and at the core of tlateco:ni, “cutting instrument” > (Karttunen, 1985: 295; Molina, 1571b: 134v; Wimmer, undated). Molina’s > (1571b: 24r) listing of coyoctic, “agujero, o cosa agujerada” is also > relevant to the discussion, as has been pointed out in this thread. > > > > I hope this makes things a bit more clear. These sorts of changes are what > makes Nahuatl morphological analysis a challenge; without a clear > understanding of the underlying morphophonological processes it can be > really hard to see what’s going on. > > > > Saludos cordiales, > > > > David > > > > ******************************** > > Sources not cited in my last post: > > > > ANDREWS, J. Richard > > 2003a Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University > of Oklahoma Press. > > 2003b Workbook for introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, > Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. > > > > WIMMER, Alexis > > undated Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique > (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/; access: 29 February 2012). > > > > De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] > Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 15:35 > Para: David Wright > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli > > > > David, > > I've never been really happy with the way people explain things > having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I > think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get > through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. > And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there > are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, > then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And > when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has > also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the > final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at > the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the > source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that > any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a > linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of > Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl > adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing > repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, > the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for > me to understand. > > John > > > > On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: > > > > Muy estimado John: > > I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with > what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c > change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root > verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within > the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in > Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or > coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c > shift I would be interested. > > The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb > coyoqui, would work like this: > > tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example > tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive > tlateco:, "something is cut"): > > tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, > chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) > > CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, > ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, > ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > > CAROCHI, Horacio > 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs > (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los Ángeles, Stanford > University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. > > KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. > > MOLINA, Alonso de > 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, México, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, México, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > > Saludos desde Guanajuato, > > David > > ******************************************************* > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de IDIEZ > Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. > With > a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very > easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, > "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, > coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or > tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or > the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to > "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take > place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the > reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. > This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb > to > something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We > used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, > the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, > that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the > intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about > working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is > that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly > present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined > forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the > following form: > 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. > 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown > (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) > 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied > or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or > fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, > cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). > But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for > the > formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 1 17:51:51 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 12:51:51 -0500 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ In-Reply-To: <20120301123910.mr07opogu8wc448w@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On the same page, he also adds: "Nouns meaning "a thing of such-and-such a color" are created by this means from incorporated-noun-as-adverb compounds formed on the matric e:hua, 'to arise': (ti:c-e-c)-tli = a chalk-colored thing [ < (ti:c-e:-hua) < (ti:za)tl + e:hua)]" (Note occepa that la voyelle shortens.) Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Nahuatlatos estimados, > > "Old Andrews," (_Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_, University of > Texas Press, Austin, 1975, page 245) seems to have something to say > about all this: > > 1. "Intransitive thematic verbs of the -ni kind...[our coyoni]...may > have root-based patientive nouns formed on a special stem consisting > of the root plus -c, -x, -z, or -ch, the choice depending on certain > factors no longer evident in the surface grammar. The long vowel of > the root is made short." > > An example that appears to relate to this case is tlapactli 'a thing > that has become broken' from tlapani. > > (Note bien que que esta palabra no es tlapa:ctli 'cosa lavada') > > > 2. "Intransitive thematic verbsd of the -hua kind may have root-based > patientive nouns formed on a special stem created by adding -c to the > root. The long vowel of the root is made short before the -c." > > The example is pitzactli 'a thing that has become narrowed or thin' > from 'pitza:hua > > > Michael > > > > > Quoting David Wright : > >> Muy apreciado John: >> >> >> >> It’s good to be critical and look hard at these things. There is, in fact, a >> simpler explanation for both tlacoyoctli and tlatectli, deriving the nouns >> from the preterite stems of the verbs. This is what Campbell and Karttunen >> (1989a: 240) call “patientive state nouns”, as opposed to what they call >> “resultant state nouns”,which are based on the passive stem (which they >> prefer to call “nonactive”), as described in my last post. The results of >> both processes have similar or identical meanings, so it’s difficult to >> choose between the two forms. >> >> >> >> The “resultant state” explanations would go like this: >> >> >> >> Tlacoyoctli: tla + (coyoqui -i) + tli >> >> tlatectli: tla + (tequi - i) + tli >> >> >> >> (Although I’m still not sure about this unattested verb coyoqui, where the >> expected form would be coyo:ni.) >> >> >> >> If you (with friar William of Ockham) prefer the simpler explanations of >> these words, these analyses would also work. >> >> >> >> Andrews (2003: 364, 365) prefers to think of a “nonactive suffix o:”, which >> would simplify the “(lo: - o:) part of my previous analysis to just “o:.” I >> prefer to write out the long form, based on the assumtion that o: is derived >> from lo:, just to make things a bit more explicit. >> >> >> >> The more complicated analysis (“patientive state nouns”) given by Campbell >> and Karttunen seem to be inspired by Carochi’s explanation of what he calls >> “los verbales en tli, y li” (2001: 182-187 [lbook 3,chapter 3]). (Both Joe >> and Fran are listeros; perhaps they can shed some light on this.) Carochi >> includes tlatectli in his examples, then explains: >> >> >> >> “Formanse de la voz passiua del presente de indicatiuo desta manera que si >> el passiuo es regular, idest, si acaba in lo, se muda la o, vltima en li, >> verbi gracia. chi:hua hazer, forma el passiuo chihualo, buelta la o, en li, >> y antepuesto el tla, haze tlachi:hualli, cosa hecha, obra, criatura. Pero si >> el verbo no formare regularmente el passiuo, no acabarà en lo, aunque si, en >> o, de ordinario, y en tal caso la o, se mudarà en tli; como tequi cortar, >> tiene el passiuo, teco, boluiendo su o, en tli, con el tla, haze el verbal >> tlatectli, cosa cortada. [ ]” >> >> >> >> Carochi says tlatectli is formed on the passive stem, which makes the >> analysis I gave in my last post my favorite hypothesis, although the >> alternative mentioned above can’t be ruled out, as far as I can see at this >> point. Campbell and Karttunen give both derivations for tlatectli: >> “resultant state” (based on the passive) and “patientive state” (based on >> the preterite) (1989a: 239, 240). >> >> >> >> As for evidence of the intervening steps between tequi and tlatectli, there >> are attestations of teco: in the Carochi quote given above, in Sahagún (see >> Wimmer, undated) and at the core of tlateco:ni, “cutting instrument” >> (Karttunen, 1985: 295; Molina, 1571b: 134v; Wimmer, undated). Molina’s >> (1571b: 24r) listing of coyoctic, “agujero, o cosa agujerada” is also >> relevant to the discussion, as has been pointed out in this thread. >> >> >> >> I hope this makes things a bit more clear. These sorts of changes are what >> makes Nahuatl morphological analysis a challenge; without a clear >> understanding of the underlying morphophonological processes it can be >> really hard to see what’s going on. >> >> >> >> Saludos cordiales, >> >> >> >> David >> >> >> >> ******************************** >> >> Sources not cited in my last post: >> >> >> >> ANDREWS, J. Richard >> >> 2003a Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University >> of Oklahoma Press. >> >> 2003b Workbook for introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, >> Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. >> >> >> >> WIMMER, Alexis >> >> undated Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique >> (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/; access: 29 February 2012). >> >> >> >> De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] >> Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 15:35 >> Para: David Wright >> CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli >> >> >> >> David, >> >> I've never been really happy with the way people explain things >> having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I >> think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get >> through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. >> And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there >> are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, >> then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And >> when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has >> also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the >> final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at >> the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the >> source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that >> any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a >> linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of >> Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl >> adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing >> repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, >> the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for >> me to understand. >> >> John >> >> >> >> On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: >> >> >> >> Muy estimado John: >> >> I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with >> what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c >> change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root >> verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within >> the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in >> Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or >> coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c >> shift I would be interested. >> >> The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb >> coyoqui, would work like this: >> >> tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli >> >> The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example >> tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive >> tlateco:, "something is cut"): >> >> tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli >> >> (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, >> chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) >> >> CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances >> 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, >> ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. >> 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, >> ed. xerográfica, Missoula, The University of Montana. >> >> CAROCHI, Horacio >> 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs >> (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los Ángeles, Stanford >> University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. >> >> KARTTUNEN, Frances >> 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. >> >> MOLINA, Alonso de >> 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, México, Casa de Antonio >> de Espinosa. >> 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, México, Casa de Antonio >> de Espinosa. >> >> Saludos desde Guanajuato, >> >> David >> >> ******************************************************* >> >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] >> En nombre de IDIEZ >> Enviado el: miércoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 >> Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli >> >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. >> With >> a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very >> easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, >> "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, >> coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or >> tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or >> the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to >> "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take >> place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the >> reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. >> This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb >> to >> something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We >> used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, >> the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, >> that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the >> intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about >> working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is >> that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly >> present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined >> forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the >> following form: >> 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. >> 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown >> (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) >> 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied >> or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or >> fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, >> cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). >> But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for >> the >> formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 19:28:13 2012 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:28:13 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 251, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Listeros You should all take a look at Una Canger's Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in -Oa, because in this book she goes into quite some detail about the histories of the different verbal endings such as -ca,-ni, -wa, -wi, -tza. It is clear from her account that it is not the case that we can simply postulate historical verbs with the ending -qui or -ca to account for the -ctli ending because the different endings create different kinds of verbs. What is the grain of this is that we have a morphonphonetic alternation between /k/ and /w/ in certain words, I am quite convinced that this is a significant historical phenomenon that can be addressed only by a detailed study of the Nahuan and Uto-Aztecan historical phonemics. I did some research on this in 2009 and am in the process of writing up the results. What got me interested is that in many dialects the alternation is not twofold between /k/ and /w/ but threefodl between /k/, /w/ and /n/. Where n is the reflex in word final position after long vowel, k is the reflex syllable finally before *t and w is the reflex between vowels. This actually gets to a proposal studied by R. Joe Campbell in IJAL in 1976, and also proposed by Benjamin Lee Whorf in his Milpa Alta sketch in which he suggests that Proto-Nahuatl had a phoneme /ŋw/ with a nasal reflex in Tepoztlan Nahuatl. Dakin and Ryesky notes is also the case for all the dialects of Morelos, and which is in fact also the case for many Zongolica dialects, at least historically.Then my hunch, which I haven't yet fully made into an argument is that the k/w/n alternation can be reconstructed back to the same phoneme that gives an alternatione between g/n/m/w/mw in general Uto-Aztecan (sometimes reconstructed as a nasal final feature, sometimes as a lenis nasal, and sometimes as an ŋw). I am still working on this, but I'll be presenting some of my data at the Northeastern conference in New Haven in May. best, Magnus On 1 March 2012 13:00, wrote: > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ (Michael McCafferty) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Cc: > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 12:51:51 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ > On the same page, he also adds: > > "Nouns meaning "a thing of such-and-such a color" are created by this > means from incorporated-noun-as-adverb compounds formed on the matric > e:hua, 'to arise': > > (ti:c-e-c)-tli = a chalk-colored thing [ < (ti:c-e:-hua) < (ti:za)tl + > e:hua)]" > > > (Note occepa that la voyelle shortens.) > > > Michael > > > -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. student Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 1 20:00:45 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:00:45 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 251, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > Listeros > > You should all take a look at Una Canger's Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in > -Oa, because in this book she goes into quite some detail about the > histories of the different verbal endings such as -ca,-ni, -wa, -wi, -tza. > It is clear from her account that it is not the case that we can simply > postulate historical verbs with the ending -qui or -ca to account for the > -ctli ending because the different endings create different kinds of verbs. > > What is the grain of this is that we have a morphonphonetic alternation > between /k/ and /w/ in certain words, I am quite convinced that this is a > significant historical phenomenon that can be addressed only by a detailed > study of the Nahuan and Uto-Aztecan historical phonemics. I did some > research on this in 2009 and am in the process of writing up the results. I've been thinking exactly along these lines, Magnus. These are good points. Michael > > What got me interested is that in many dialects the alternation is not > twofold between /k/ and /w/ but threefodl between /k/, /w/ and /n/. Where n > is the reflex in word final position after long vowel, k is the reflex > syllable finally before *t and w is the reflex between vowels. This > actually gets to a proposal studied by R. Joe Campbell in IJAL in 1976, and > also proposed by Benjamin Lee Whorf in his Milpa Alta sketch in which he > suggests that Proto-Nahuatl had a phoneme /?w/ with a nasal reflex in > Tepoztlan Nahuatl. Dakin and Ryesky notes is also the case for all the > dialects of Morelos, and which is in fact also the case for many Zongolica > dialects, at least historically.Then my hunch, which I haven't yet fully > made into an argument is that the k/w/n alternation can be reconstructed > back to the same phoneme that gives an alternatione between g/n/m/w/mw in > general Uto-Aztecan (sometimes reconstructed as a nasal final feature, > sometimes as a lenis nasal, and sometimes as an ?w). > > I am still working on this, but I'll be presenting some of my data at the > Northeastern conference in New Haven in May. > > best, > Magnus > > > On 1 March 2012 13:00, wrote: > >> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ (Michael McCafferty) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Michael McCafferty >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Cc: >> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 12:51:51 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ >> On the same page, he also adds: >> >> "Nouns meaning "a thing of such-and-such a color" are created by this >> means from incorporated-noun-as-adverb compounds formed on the matric >> e:hua, 'to arise': >> >> (ti:c-e-c)-tli = a chalk-colored thing [ < (ti:c-e:-hua) < (ti:za)tl + >> e:hua)]" >> >> >> (Note occepa that la voyelle shortens.) >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Mar 5 11:35:36 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 05:35:36 -0600 Subject: Pre-Yale conference intensive Nahuatl course Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, We are looking into the possibility of offering a 16 hour intensive introduction to Classical and Modern Nahuatl from Monday April 30 to Thursday May 3. I would teach two hours per day of Classical and a native speaker would teach another two hours per day of Modern Huastecan Nahuatl. The course would be held either in New York or New Haven. The Yale Nahuatl conference and workshop is May 4 and 5. There would be a charge involved to cover airfare, hotel and food for the instructors. If you are interested in participating, please contact me at idiez at me.com. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mbassett at gsu.edu Mon Mar 5 15:54:42 2012 From: mbassett at gsu.edu (Molly Harbour Bassett) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:54:42 +0000 Subject: toncohualonotia Message-ID: Hi all, In section 26 (p. 19) of Tezozomoc's _Cronica Mexicayotl_, Adrian Leon translates toncohualonotia as "que venia yaciendo en un cofre." As best I can tell, toncohualonotia has to do with money or buying something (cohua; tlacocohualoni), but I must be overlooking something. I've pasted the context below. Any thoughts? Thanks, Molly nahuintin inquihualmamaque in tetzahuitl Huitzilopochtli toncohualonotia in teomamaque ce tlacatl itoca Iztacmixcohuatzin, auh inic ome itoca Apanecatl, inic ey itoca Tetzcacohuacatl, inic nahui cihuatl itoca Chimalma yehuantinin imotenehua teomamaque ------------------------------------------------ Molly Bassett Assistant Professor Director of Graduate Studies Department of Religious Studies Georgia State University _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From stefanyteufel at yahoo.de Mon Mar 5 16:56:50 2012 From: stefanyteufel at yahoo.de (Stefanie Teufel) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:56:50 +0000 Subject: WG: toncohualonotia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Molly, the BNP document that Adrian Leon used has a lot of errors. Please have a look at the Manuscript that has been found in England and has been published in the Codex Chimapahin by Anderson and Schroeder. There you will find two words: topco hualnotia "he was lying in a coffre". Best, Stefanie  ----- Weitergeleitete Message ----- Von: Molly Harbour Bassett An: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" Gesendet: 16:54 Montag, 5.März 2012 Betreff: [Nahuat-l] toncohualonotia Hi all, In section 26 (p. 19) of Tezozomoc's _Cronica Mexicayotl_, Adrian Leon translates toncohualonotia as "que venia yaciendo en un cofre." As best I can tell, toncohualonotia has to do with money or buying something (cohua; tlacocohualoni), but I must be overlooking something. I've pasted the context below. Any thoughts? Thanks, Molly nahuintin inquihualmamaque in tetzahuitl Huitzilopochtli toncohualonotia in teomamaque ce tlacatl itoca Iztacmixcohuatzin, auh inic ome itoca Apanecatl, inic ey itoca Tetzcacohuacatl, inic nahui cihuatl itoca Chimalma yehuantinin imotenehua teomamaque ------------------------------------------------ Molly Bassett Assistant Professor Director of Graduate Studies Department of Religious Studies Georgia State University _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Mar 7 12:54:48 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 06:54:48 -0600 Subject: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning "something that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge provokes thought. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Wed Mar 7 09:16:10 2012 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:16:10 +0100 Subject: yomoni, ixyoyomoni; atzcalli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nahua(tl at lists.famsi.org)tlaca, I've been trying to find information on a verb and its derivatives that relates to a glyph in the Nahuatl writing system of the mid-16th century. The verb is (a spelling for yomo:ni/yo'mo:ni/yo:mo:ni), approximately 'twitch, itch', among other things. Related to this is 'grimace, make faces', composed of i:x- 'face' and what is presumably yo'yomo:ni or yo'yo:mo:ni. I would be very grateful if someone could let me know if there is any dialect (or textual) evidence for the shape of the syllables and in these two related verbs. In particular, is there any direct evidence for a short or long vowel, or vowel plus glottal stop/fricative ('/h), in the first syllable of ? Has anyone come across the compound in a modern dialect? Given the meaning of the compound, the first syllable of is presumably yo'/yoh. Term 2: Another elusive form is the Florentine Codex's (a kind of shell). I presume a compound of a:- 'water', and a verbal element with subsequent syncope of *tzical-. Has anyone seen or heard evidence for the length of the initial vowel? Thanks again for any tips. Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Prof. Dr. Gordon Whittaker Direktor Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Mar 7 18:18:00 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:18:00 -0600 Subject: More things to consider Message-ID: Consider these examples, in which final morphemes are deleted in the process of converting a verb to a noun, and how parallel options are used to provide shades of meaning: 1. cuelpachoa, nic, "to fold s.t." > tlacuelpachtli, "a cuff" vs tlacuelpacholli, "folded clothing." 2. payania, nic, "to crumble s.t." > cintli tlapayantli, "corn pieces" vs "cintli tlapayanilli", "crumbled corn." 3. tentia, nic, "to sharpen s.t." > tlatentli, "cochiyoh tlatentli", "a sharp knife," vs. "cochiyoh tlatentilli", "a sharpened knife." 4. pahtia, nic. "to fertilize or apply herbicide to a plant." > "toctli tlapahtli", "a fertilized corn plant," "toctli tlapahtilli," "a corn plant that has been fertilized." On the one hand we have objects that have undergone a completed action, and on the other hand we have words that emphasize more the process which the objects have undergone. Then there that little detail of the morpheme deletion. The reason I'm starting to notice these, and many, many more examples, is that we are working a lot on words in our dictionary that begin with "tla-". John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Mar 7 19:23:41 2012 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:23:41 -0500 Subject: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli Message-ID: Piyali Piljohntzi, This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky thing... a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. examples: maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door Joe *tla7 *** alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. . b.11 f.6 p.55| cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. ll tla7>. 55m-3| callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. ll>. 55m-10| camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. xx>. 55m-20| cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. . 55m-10| cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). . 55m-10| centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . 71m1-1202| centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. xx>. 55m-18| chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de leche. x>. 71m2-8| conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. . 55m-10| cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de alguna cosa. . 55m-15| cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa¤o para cubrir la cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa¤o para cubrir la cabeza. . 55m-15| cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. . b.2 f.13 p.208| cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. . 55m-19| huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. ll>. 55m-1| icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . 71m2-21| [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. . b.10 f.1 p.9| icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; piuela de halcon. ll +z>x +a>i>. 55m-16| ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . 71m1-1202| ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. . 55m-10| ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. . b.2 f.8 p.143| ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. . 55m-2| ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. . 55m-15| ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. . b.1 f.3 p.58| ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna cosa. . 71m2-21| ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. . 71m2-21| ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa presente. . 55m-15| ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- 21| ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. xx +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. xx>. 55m-10| maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- 13| mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. . 55m-3| mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. . b.2 f.3 p.71| mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- 102| mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. . 55m-3| mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. . b.11 f.26 p.269| mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. . b.12 f.4 p.63| mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- 19| mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. . 71m1-1202| mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . b.8 f.5 p.81| mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. . 71m1-151| nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina de edificio. . 55m-9| nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 p.123| nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. . 55m-17| nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. . b.11 f.18 p.182| nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. . b.10 f.4 p.77| nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o rayz para purgar. . 55m- 17| noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. . 71m1-191| ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de caminos. . 55m-6| ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de caminos (idem). . 55m-6| ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. . b.6 f.19 p.247| ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. . b.11 f.21 p.218| pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. . 55m-15| pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. . 55m-19| paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande y chico). . 55m-13| patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . 55m-16| pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . b.9 f.7 p.96| pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. . b.9 f.7 p.94| quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . . b.2 f.4 p.84| quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. . 55m-7| quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o fin de algo. . 71m2-23| tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . 55m-8| telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque¤a; altozano; o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . 71m1-021| tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa¤o^ya quitado o cortado del mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado o cortado del mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado. . 55m-15| tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . b.10 f.5 p.91| tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. . 55m-9| tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . . b.11 f.27 p.279| tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. . 55m-19| tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. tzy>. 55m-15| tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. tz>. 71m2-23| til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; cuesta peque¤a. i>. 71m2-23| tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. . b.11 f.3 p.27| tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . b.11 f.5 p.39| tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . . b.2 f.10 p.164| tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. . b.11 f.3 p.26| tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- 18| tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. . 71m1-151| tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. b.10 f.10 p.167| tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- 191| tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 p.99| tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. . 55m-15| tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. . b.11 f.25 p.261| tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. . 55m-001| tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- 6| tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- 17| xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo delo entero y principal. . 55m-15| xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque¤a. . 55m-15| xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . . b.11 f.6 p.55| yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . 71m1-172| yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 p.64| morpheme count 332 Quoting IDIEZ : > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa > echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of > pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In > Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of > the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." > Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" > that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? > In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning "something > that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with > it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same > way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. > And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the > variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation > between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel > length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge > provokes thought. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Mar 7 21:28:38 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:28:38 -0600 Subject: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli In-Reply-To: <20120307142341.rtvu3r380844wgog@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Piljoetzin, So in other words, in a case like "tlacuelpachtli", "cuff", we are dealing with: 1. tla7 2. cuelpachtli, the (compound) root of "cuelpachihui", "cuelpachoa" and "cuelpachtic (by way of the unattested 'cuelpachti(ya).'" Right? John On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Campbell, R. Joe wrote: > Piyali Piljohntzi, > > This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky thing... > a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive > suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the > meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers > to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses > "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. > > examples: > > maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve > > (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) > > tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing > cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door > > Joe > > > *tla7 *** > alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de > cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde > solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. telli +ltl>ll tla7>. 55m-3| > callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > ll>. 55m-10| > camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o > cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 > +spanish>. 55m-13| > caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. +xy>xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| > caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; > crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-20| > cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a > grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. ma:tlatl-co2 tla7>. 55m-10| > cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; > grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). > . 55m-10| > centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o > aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; > senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| > centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | > centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). > simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . > 71m1-1202| > centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-18| > chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de > leche. tla7 +xy>x>. 71m2-8| > conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > . 55m-10| > cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de > alguna cosa. . 55m-15| > cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa¤o para cubrir la > cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa¤o para cubrir la cabeza. > . 55m-15| > cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle > down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| > cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.2 f.13 p.208| > cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de > nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| > cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. cuitlatl-pan-ca:tl-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. l tla7 +ly>ll>. 55m-1| > icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o > sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . > 71m2-21| > [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. tahtli tla7 +kin>. b.10 f.1 p.9| > icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; > piuela de halcon. ll +z>x > +a>i>. 55m-16| > ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . > 71m1-1202| > ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de > alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. cua:itl tla7>. 55m-10| > ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. cua:itl tla7>. b.2 f.8 p.143| > ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera > cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la > puerta. . 55m-2| > ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. i:xi:ptlatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.1 f.3 p.58| > ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna > cosa. . 71m2-21| > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. i:xtli-pan-yo:tl1 +del.n tla7>. 71m2-21| > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa > presente. . 55m-15| > ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; > grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- > 21| > ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que > nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. i:xtli-yoa:-l in chi:chi:3-hua1-l1-a:tl1-yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx > +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| > ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. > xx>. 55m-10| > maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- > 13| > mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. > . 55m-3| > mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. tla7>. b.2 f.3 p.71| > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi > is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| > mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) > | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa > assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; > escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- > 102| > mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. dupl-ma:tlatl-yahualli tla7>. 55m-3| > mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its > steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| > mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. > . b.11 f.26 p.269| > mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. ma:tlatl-yoa:-l-co2 tla7>. b.12 f.4 p.63| > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after > tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- > 19| > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-1202| > mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . > b.8 f.5 p.81| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish>. 55m-13| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish>. 71m1-151| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los > manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish > +prob>. 71m2-10| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| > molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor > para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. hua:ztli tla7>. 71m1-151| > nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina > de edificio. . 55m-9| > nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 > p.123| > nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. tla7>. 55m-17| > nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. to:n-tl tla7>. b.11 f.18 p.182| > nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. dupl-to:n-plur02 tla7 plur10b +del.n>. b.10 f.4 p.77| > nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| > nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. +e>i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > rayz para purgar. . 55m- > 17| > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. ni1 poss-nelhuatl tla7>. 71m1-191| > ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > caminos. . 55m-6| > ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > caminos (idem). . 55m-6| > ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. delya-l1 tla7>. b.6 f.19 p.247| > ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. > . b.11 f.21 p.218| > pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado > cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. ++cahuallo tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; > cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande > y chico). . 55m-13| > patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . > 55m-16| > pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . > b.9 f.7 p.96| > pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. pechtli-yoa:-l tla7>. b.9 f.7 p.94| > quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . tla7>. b.2 f.4 p.84| > quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de > almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para > emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-7| > quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o > fin de algo. . 71m2-23| > tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de > arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . > 55m-8| > telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque¤a; altozano; > o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . > 71m1-021| > tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa¤o^ya quitado o > cortado del mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado o cortado del > mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado. ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . > b.10 f.5 p.91| > tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; > trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; > franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. tla7>. 55m-9| > tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . l tla7>. b.11 f.27 p.279| > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing > error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. > . 55m-19| > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; > postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. l tla7 +tzy>tzy>. 55m-15| > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. tepotztli-yo:tl1 tla7 +tzy>tz>. 71m2-23| > til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. > b.10 f.7 p.124b| > tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| > tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; > cuesta peque¤a. i>. 71m2-23| > tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; > trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| > tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| > tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.27| > tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . > b.11 f.5 p.39| > tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy > feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| > tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather > down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| > tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . tla7>. b.2 f.10 p.164| > tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. yo:tl1-yo:tl1 tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.26| > tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. > chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- > 18| > tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-151| > tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. > b.10 f.10 p.167| > tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| > tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- > 191| > tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 > p.99| > tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. tla7>. 55m-15| > tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. > . b.11 f.25 p.261| > tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; > garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| > tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o > cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o > afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-001| > tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; > fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- > 6| > tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que > queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- > 17| > xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. telli-e:1-prt4 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. xa:lli-poss-telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo > delo entero y principal. . > 55m-15| > xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque¤a. xelli-v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7>. 55m-15| > xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . +need:bird>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . > 71m1-172| > yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 > p.64| > > morpheme count 332 > > > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa >> echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of >> pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In >> Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of >> the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." >> Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" >> that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? >> In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning "something >> that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with >> it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same >> way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. >> And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the >> variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation >> between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel >> length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge >> provokes thought. >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Mar 7 21:52:37 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:52:37 -0600 Subject: tla7 Message-ID: So tlacoyontli and tlacoyoctli both come from tla7 + coyontli/coyoctli. And now Mr. Campbell, as your councel I would advise you to answer the following question very carefully. Does coyontli come from coyoni, or does coyoni come from coyontli. In other words, Tlen achtohui quichiuhqui totiotzin? Piyo zo tecciztli? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Mar 7 21:37:44 2012 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:37:44 +0100 Subject: 3 words from the Nican Mopohua Message-ID: Hola, In analyzing the Huei Tlamahuizoltica's front page, and the first paragraph of the Nican Mopohua, I remain puzzled by the construction of the following three words. TLAMAHUIZOLTICA Comes from the verb MAHUIZOA, converted into a patientive noun = TLAMAHUIZOLLI but.... what is the function of "TICA"? I can't conclude it being an instrumental verbal noun ("with the help of a miracle") or is it? ITOCAYOCAN TEPEYACAC I think TOCAYO(H) is a noun (with adjectival sense) derived from TOCAITL, but what is "CAN" doing at the end of the word? TOCIHUAPILLATOCATZIN Apparently meaning "our queen", but literally I conclude it is "our-woman-noble(pricess)-name". Why "LA" after PIL? and why TOCA? Thanks for any help. Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 8 01:40:54 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:40:54 -0600 Subject: 3 words from the Nican Mopohua In-Reply-To: <4F57D528.7000309@losrancheros.org> Message-ID: Piyali Susana, 1. tlamahuizol-li, “miracle“ + ti (ligature) + -ca (instrumental relational word, “with, by means of“). You could also say “ica tlamahuizolli.“ 2. i- (third person sing. possessor) + toca-itl, “name“ + -yoh, “s.t. covered with, full of or having s.t.“ + -can (the short version is “place of“). So “place by (having) the name of Tepeyacac.“ 3. to- (first person plural possessor) + cihuapil-li (noblewoman) tlahtohca- (combining form of tlahtoani; and when you combine the final l of the root of cihuapilli with the initial tl of tlahtohca-, you get ll) + -tzin (singular reverential ending). The final -tli has been dropped because the word is possessed. John On Mar 7, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Susana Moraleda wrote: > Hola, > In analyzing the Huei Tlamahuizoltica's front page, and the first paragraph of the Nican Mopohua, I remain puzzled by the construction of the following three words. > > TLAMAHUIZOLTICA > Comes from the verb MAHUIZOA, converted into a patientive noun = TLAMAHUIZOLLI > but.... what is the function of "TICA"? I can't conclude it being an instrumental verbal noun ("with the help of a miracle") or is it? > > ITOCAYOCAN TEPEYACAC > I think TOCAYO(H) is a noun (with adjectival sense) derived from TOCAITL, but what is "CAN" doing at the end of the word? > > TOCIHUAPILLATOCATZIN > Apparently meaning "our queen", but literally I conclude it is "our-woman-noble(pricess)-name". Why "LA" after PIL? and why TOCA? > > Thanks for any help. > > Susana > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 8 02:56:55 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:56:55 -0500 Subject: typo Message-ID: tlalticpac not *tlaticpac. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 8 02:53:16 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:53:16 -0500 Subject: 3 words from the Nican Mopohua In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting IDIEZ : > Piyali Susana, > 1. tlamahuizol-li, ?miracle? + ti (ligature) + -ca (instrumental > relational word, ?with, by means of?). You could also say ?ica > tlamahuizolli.? Susana, These are nice explanations by John. Let me add that this is a very productive grammatical form having to do with the -ca instrumental and the way it attaches to nouns: xochitica, tetica, quetzaltica,... ad infinitum. You don't see the ligature with no-, mo-, i-, to-, amo-. There you just get noca, moca, ica, toca, amoca. Nor do you see the ligature used with nouns beginning with the indefinite pronouns te- and tla-. Note that you also get the ligature -ti- with other postpositions: tlaticpac, caltitech, tepetitlan, etc. > 2. i- (third person sing. possessor) + toca-itl, ?name? + -yoh, ?s.t. > covered with, full of or having s.t.? + -can (the short version is > ?place of?). So ?place by (having) the name of Tepeyacac.? Tepeyacac tepetl 'mountain' + yacatl + -co 'place of' yacatl means 'nose' but it also means 'ridge'. It might be good to add that the instrumental -ca, with -ti- of course, is added to the word for 'day', ilhuitl, to mean 'during', for example, cemilhuitica during the day yeilhuitica for three days What's also cool is that when you reduplicate the number, say, yeiyeilhuitica, that means 'every three days'. Michael > 3. to- (first person plural possessor) + cihuapil-li (noblewoman) > tlahtohca- (combining form of tlahtoani; and when you combine the > final l of the root of cihuapilli with the initial tl of tlahtohca-, > you get ll) + -tzin (singular reverential ending). The final -tli has > been dropped because the word is possessed. > John > > On Mar 7, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Susana Moraleda wrote: > >> Hola, >> In analyzing the Huei Tlamahuizoltica's front page, and the first >> paragraph of the Nican Mopohua, I remain puzzled by the construction >> of the following three words. >> >> TLAMAHUIZOLTICA >> Comes from the verb MAHUIZOA, converted into a patientive noun = >> TLAMAHUIZOLLI >> but.... what is the function of "TICA"? I can't conclude it being an >> instrumental verbal noun ("with the help of a miracle") or is it? >> >> ITOCAYOCAN TEPEYACAC >> I think TOCAYO(H) is a noun (with adjectival sense) derived from >> TOCAITL, but what is "CAN" doing at the end of the word? >> >> TOCIHUAPILLATOCATZIN >> Apparently meaning "our queen", but literally I conclude it is >> "our-woman-noble(pricess)-name". Why "LA" after PIL? and why TOCA? >> >> Thanks for any help. >> >> Susana >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 8 19:27:05 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 14:27:05 -0500 Subject: yomoni, ixyoyomoni; atzcalli In-Reply-To: <6570f50d19838e580bb52bc3ba30c5cd.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Quoting Gordon Whittaker : > Dear Nahua(tl at lists.famsi.org)tlaca, > > > > Term 2: Another elusive form is the Florentine Codex's (a kind > of shell). I presume a compound of a:- 'water', and a verbal element with > subsequent syncope of *tzical-. Has anyone seen or heard evidence for the > length of the initial vowel? Thanks again for any tips. Gordon, Could this be a:tl + tzictli + ca:lli? -> a:tzicca:lli -> a:tzica:lli A shell is such a nice ca:lli. Michael > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Prof. Dr. Gordon Whittaker > Direktor > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Mar 12 02:44:41 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:44:41 -0600 Subject: tlacala:niliztli, tlacala:naliztli Message-ID: Piyali listeros, Assuming that our base forms are cala:ni, "for s.t. to make a clanging sound," and cala:nia:, " to clang s.t. against s.t. else," how come there are two -liztli forms in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl: tlacala:naliztli (I don't know if the second "a" is long or short) and tlacala:niliztli? Does this have anything to do with: cala:ni + -a:ltia: (causative suffix) = cahua:na:ltia:? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rbenavides05 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 20:35:43 2012 From: rbenavides05 at hotmail.com (Rafael Benavides) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:35:43 -0500 Subject: Anacahuita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good day listeros, I have a simple question. Here on the Rio Grande border in Texas there is a native tree that grows in extreme South Texas corresponding with the Tamaulipan ecosystem. In English it's called the Mexican Olive, but is often referred to as Anacahuita by people in the area. I've also heard it been called Anacahuite and Anacahua. My grandfather used to call it Nacagua/Nacahua. It seems every community along the border has they're own preference. The tree produces a marvelous white flower and, once pollinated, a small fruit that is used to suppress coughs in people. The tree's branches are also boiled to make a tea. I've read that the name comes from the Nahuatl anacuahuitl, from the words amatl and cuahuitl, as it is said Mesoamerican peoples used this tree to make amate, or paper. I'm not sure about that since I've heard that the Amate tree is what they used. Amate in Nahuatl would correspond with amacuahuitl/anacuahuitl, but these are two different trees. Is anyone familiar with this tree and it's name? Here is a picture of a mature tree's trunk and bark: http://valleygreenspace.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/old-age-woodpecker-hom-in-ancient-anacahuite.jpg Here is a picture of the tree's flower, fruite and leaves: http://magicedspotrerochico.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/036.jpg Thank you in advance! Sincerely,Rafael Benavides > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 252, Issue 4 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:28:57 -0600 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. More things to consider (IDIEZ) > 2. Re: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli (Campbell, R. Joe) > 3. Re: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli (IDIEZ) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:18:00 -0600 > From: IDIEZ > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] More things to consider > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > Consider these examples, in which final morphemes are deleted in the process of converting a verb to a noun, and how parallel options are used to provide shades of meaning: > 1. cuelpachoa, nic, "to fold s.t." > tlacuelpachtli, "a cuff" vs tlacuelpacholli, "folded clothing." > 2. payania, nic, "to crumble s.t." > cintli tlapayantli, "corn pieces" vs "cintli tlapayanilli", "crumbled corn." > 3. tentia, nic, "to sharpen s.t." > tlatentli, "cochiyoh tlatentli", "a sharp knife," vs. "cochiyoh tlatentilli", "a sharpened knife." > 4. pahtia, nic. "to fertilize or apply herbicide to a plant." > "toctli tlapahtli", "a fertilized corn plant," "toctli tlapahtilli," "a corn plant that has been fertilized." > On the one hand we have objects that have undergone a completed action, and on the other hand we have words that emphasize more the process which the objects have undergone. Then there that little detail of the morpheme deletion. > The reason I'm starting to notice these, and many, many more examples, is that we are working a lot on words in our dictionary that begin with "tla-". > John > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:23:41 -0500 > From: "Campbell, R. Joe" > To: IDIEZ > Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli > Message-ID: <20120307142341.rtvu3r380844wgog at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Piyali Piljohntzi, > > This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky thing... > a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive > suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the > meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers > to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses > "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. > > examples: > > maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve > > (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) > > tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing > cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door > > Joe > > > *tla7 *** > alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de > cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde > solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. telli +ltl>ll tla7>. 55m-3| > callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > ll>. 55m-10| > camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o > cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 > +spanish>. 55m-13| > caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. +xy>xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| > caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; > crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-20| > cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a > grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. ma:tlatl-co2 tla7>. 55m-10| > cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; > grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). > . 55m-10| > centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o > aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; > senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| > centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | > centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). > simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . > 71m1-1202| > centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-18| > chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de > leche. tla7 +xy>x>. 71m2-8| > conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > . 55m-10| > cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de > alguna cosa. . 55m-15| > cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa¤o para cubrir la > cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa¤o para cubrir la cabeza. > . 55m-15| > cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle > down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| > cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.2 f.13 p.208| > cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de > nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| > cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. cuitlatl-pan-ca:tl-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. l tla7 +ly>ll>. 55m-1| > icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o > sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . > 71m2-21| > [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. tahtli tla7 +kin>. b.10 f.1 p.9| > icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; > piuela de halcon. ll +z>x > +a>i>. 55m-16| > ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . > 71m1-1202| > ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de > alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. cua:itl tla7>. 55m-10| > ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. cua:itl tla7>. b.2 f.8 p.143| > ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera > cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la > puerta. . 55m-2| > ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. i:xi:ptlatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.1 f.3 p.58| > ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna > cosa. . 71m2-21| > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. i:xtli-pan-yo:tl1 +del.n tla7>. 71m2-21| > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa > presente. . 55m-15| > ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; > grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- > 21| > ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que > nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. i:xtli-yoa:-l in chi:chi:3-hua1-l1-a:tl1-yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx > +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| > ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. > xx>. 55m-10| > maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- > 13| > mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. > . 55m-3| > mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. tla7>. b.2 f.3 p.71| > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi > is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| > mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) > | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa > assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; > escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- > 102| > mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. dupl-ma:tlatl-yahualli tla7>. 55m-3| > mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its > steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| > mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. > . b.11 f.26 p.269| > mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. ma:tlatl-yoa:-l-co2 tla7>. b.12 f.4 p.63| > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after > tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- > 19| > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-1202| > mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . > b.8 f.5 p.81| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish>. 55m-13| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish>. 71m1-151| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los > manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish > +prob>. 71m2-10| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| > molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor > para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. hua:ztli tla7>. 71m1-151| > nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina > de edificio. . 55m-9| > nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 > p.123| > nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. tla7>. 55m-17| > nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. to:n-tl tla7>. b.11 f.18 p.182| > nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. dupl-to:n-plur02 tla7 plur10b +del.n>. b.10 f.4 p.77| > nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| > nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. +e>i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > rayz para purgar. . 55m- > 17| > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. ni1 poss-nelhuatl tla7>. 71m1-191| > ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > caminos. . 55m-6| > ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > caminos (idem). . 55m-6| > ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. delya-l1 tla7>. b.6 f.19 p.247| > ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. > . b.11 f.21 p.218| > pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado > cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. ++cahuallo tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; > cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande > y chico). . 55m-13| > patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . > 55m-16| > pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . > b.9 f.7 p.96| > pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. pechtli-yoa:-l tla7>. b.9 f.7 p.94| > quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . tla7>. b.2 f.4 p.84| > quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de > almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para > emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-7| > quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o > fin de algo. . 71m2-23| > tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de > arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . > 55m-8| > telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque¤a; altozano; > o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . > 71m1-021| > tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa¤o^ya quitado o > cortado del mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado o cortado del > mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado. ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . > b.10 f.5 p.91| > tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; > trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; > franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. tla7>. 55m-9| > tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . l tla7>. b.11 f.27 p.279| > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing > error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. > . 55m-19| > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; > postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. l tla7 +tzy>tzy>. 55m-15| > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. tepotztli-yo:tl1 tla7 +tzy>tz>. 71m2-23| > til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. > b.10 f.7 p.124b| > tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| > tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; > cuesta peque¤a. i>. 71m2-23| > tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; > trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| > tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| > tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.27| > tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . > b.11 f.5 p.39| > tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy > feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| > tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather > down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| > tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . tla7>. b.2 f.10 p.164| > tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. yo:tl1-yo:tl1 tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.26| > tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. > chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- > 18| > tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-151| > tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. > b.10 f.10 p.167| > tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| > tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- > 191| > tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 > p.99| > tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. tla7>. 55m-15| > tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. > . b.11 f.25 p.261| > tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; > garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| > tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o > cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o > afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-001| > tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; > fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- > 6| > tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que > queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- > 17| > xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. telli-e:1-prt4 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. xa:lli-poss-telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo > delo entero y principal. . > 55m-15| > xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque¤a. xelli-v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7>. 55m-15| > xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . +need:bird>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . > 71m1-172| > yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 > p.64| > > morpheme count 332 > > > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > > In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa > > echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of > > pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In > > Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of > > the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." > > Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" > > that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? > > In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning "something > > that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with > > it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same > > way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. > > And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the > > variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation > > between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel > > length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge > > provokes thought. > > John > > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > > idiez at me.com > > www.macehualli.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:28:38 -0600 > From: IDIEZ > To: "Campbell, R. Joe" > Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Piljoetzin, > So in other words, in a case like "tlacuelpachtli", "cuff", we are dealing with: > 1. tla7 > 2. cuelpachtli, the (compound) root of "cuelpachihui", "cuelpachoa" and "cuelpachtic (by way of the unattested 'cuelpachti(ya).'" > Right? > John > > On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Campbell, R. Joe wrote: > > > Piyali Piljohntzi, > > > > This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky thing... > > a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive > > suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the > > meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers > > to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses > > "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. > > > > examples: > > > > maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve > > > > (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) > > > > tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing > > cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door > > > > Joe > > > > > > *tla7 *** > > alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de > > cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- > > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde > > solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. > telli +ltl>ll tla7>. 55m-3| > > callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > ll>. 55m-10| > > camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o > > cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. > +xy>xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| > > caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; > > crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. > tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-20| > > cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a > > grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. > ma:tlatl-co2 tla7>. 55m-10| > > cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; > > grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). > > . 55m-10| > > centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o > > aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; > > senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| > > centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | > > centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). > > simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . > > 71m1-1202| > > centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. > yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-18| > > chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de > > leche. > tla7 +xy>x>. 71m2-8| > > conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > . 55m-10| > > cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de > > alguna cosa. . 55m-15| > > cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa¤o para cubrir la > > cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa¤o para cubrir la cabeza. > > . 55m-15| > > cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle > > down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| > > cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.2 f.13 p.208| > > cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de > > nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| > > cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. > cuitlatl-pan-ca:tl-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. > l tla7 +ly>ll>. 55m-1| > > icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o > > sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . > > 71m2-21| > > [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. > tahtli tla7 +kin>. b.10 f.1 p.9| > > icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; > > piuela de halcon. ll +z>x > > +a>i>. 55m-16| > > ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . > > 71m1-1202| > > ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de > > alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. > cua:itl tla7>. 55m-10| > > ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. > cua:itl tla7>. b.2 f.8 p.143| > > ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera > > cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la > > puerta. . 55m-2| > > ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. > i:xi:ptlatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.1 f.3 p.58| > > ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna > > cosa. . 71m2-21| > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. > i:xtli-pan-yo:tl1 +del.n tla7>. 71m2-21| > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa > > presente. . 55m-15| > > ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; > > grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- > > 21| > > ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que > > nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. > i:xtli-yoa:-l in chi:chi:3-hua1-l1-a:tl1-yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx > > +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| > > ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. > > xx>. 55m-10| > > maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- > > 13| > > mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. > > . 55m-3| > > mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. > tla7>. b.2 f.3 p.71| > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi > > is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| > > mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) > > | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa > > assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; > > escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- > > 102| > > mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. > dupl-ma:tlatl-yahualli tla7>. 55m-3| > > mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its > > steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| > > mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. > > . b.11 f.26 p.269| > > mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. > ma:tlatl-yoa:-l-co2 tla7>. b.12 f.4 p.63| > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after > > tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- > > 19| > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. > yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-1202| > > mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . > > b.8 f.5 p.81| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los > > manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish > > +prob>. 71m2-10| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| > > molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor > > para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. > hua:ztli tla7>. 71m1-151| > > nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina > > de edificio. . 55m-9| > > nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 > > p.123| > > nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. > tla7>. 55m-17| > > nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. > to:n-tl tla7>. b.11 f.18 p.182| > > nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. > dupl-to:n-plur02 tla7 plur10b +del.n>. b.10 f.4 p.77| > > nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. > tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| > > nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. > +e>i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > rayz para purgar. . 55m- > > 17| > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. > ni1 poss-nelhuatl tla7>. 71m1-191| > > ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > caminos. . 55m-6| > > ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > caminos (idem). . 55m-6| > > ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. > delya-l1 tla7>. b.6 f.19 p.247| > > ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. > > . b.11 f.21 p.218| > > pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado > > cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. > ++cahuallo tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; > > cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande > > y chico). . 55m-13| > > patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . > > 55m-16| > > pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . > > b.9 f.7 p.96| > > pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. > pechtli-yoa:-l tla7>. b.9 f.7 p.94| > > quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . > tla7>. b.2 f.4 p.84| > > quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de > > almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para > > emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-7| > > quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o > > fin de algo. . 71m2-23| > > tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de > > arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . > > 55m-8| > > telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque¤a; altozano; > > o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . > > 71m1-021| > > tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa¤o^ya quitado o > > cortado del mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado o cortado del > > mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado. > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . > > b.10 f.5 p.91| > > tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; > > trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; > > franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. > tla7>. 55m-9| > > tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . > l tla7>. b.11 f.27 p.279| > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing > > error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. > > . 55m-19| > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; > > postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. > l tla7 +tzy>tzy>. 55m-15| > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. > tepotztli-yo:tl1 tla7 +tzy>tz>. 71m2-23| > > til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. > > b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| > > tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; > > cuesta peque¤a. i>. 71m2-23| > > tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; > > trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| > > tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.27| > > tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . > > b.11 f.5 p.39| > > tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy > > feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| > > tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather > > down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| > > tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . > tla7>. b.2 f.10 p.164| > > tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. > yo:tl1-yo:tl1 tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.26| > > tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. > > chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- > > 18| > > tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-151| > > tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. > > b.10 f.10 p.167| > > tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. > telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| > > tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- > > 191| > > tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 > > p.99| > > tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. > tla7>. 55m-15| > > tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. > > . b.11 f.25 p.261| > > tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; > > garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| > > tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o > > cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o > > afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-001| > > tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; > > fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- > > 6| > > tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que > > queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- > > 17| > > xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. > telli-e:1-prt4 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. > xa:lli-poss-telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo > > delo entero y principal. . > > 55m-15| > > xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque¤a. > xelli-v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7>. 55m-15| > > xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . > +need:bird>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . > > 71m1-172| > > yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 > > p.64| > > > > morpheme count 332 > > > > > > > > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > > > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > >> In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa > >> echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of > >> pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In > >> Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of > >> the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." > >> Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" > >> that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? > >> In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning "something > >> that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with > >> it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same > >> way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. > >> And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the > >> variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation > >> between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel > >> length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge > >> provokes thought. > >> John > >> > >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. > >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > >> idiez at me.com > >> www.macehualli.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 252, Issue 4 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 14:33:44 2012 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:33:44 -0400 Subject: Anacahuita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Rafael, I asked a friend, an expert botanist, the question. From Andrew McDonald, "This is a Cordia of the Boraginaceae, known in some portions of Mexico and S Texas as anacahuita. The species might be boissieri. This response comes from the banks of the Mekong River, in the heart of Phnom Penh, at an internet cafe." You can see if C. boissieri matches this. If not I can ask a Borag expert at the Smithsonian. best, jonathan On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Rafael Benavides wrote: > > Good day listeros, > I have a simple question. Here on the Rio Grande border in Texas there is > a native tree that grows in extreme South Texas corresponding with the > Tamaulipan ecosystem. In English it's called the Mexican Olive, but is > often referred to as Anacahuita by people in the area. I've also heard it > been called Anacahuite and Anacahua. My grandfather used to call it > Nacagua/Nacahua. It seems every community along the border has they're own > preference. > The tree produces a marvelous white flower and, once pollinated, a small > fruit that is used to suppress coughs in people. The tree's branches are > also boiled to make a tea. > I've read that the name comes from the Nahuatl anacuahuitl, from the words > amatl and cuahuitl, as it is said Mesoamerican peoples used this tree to > make amate, or paper. I'm not sure about that since I've heard that the > Amate tree is what they used. Amate in Nahuatl would correspond with > amacuahuitl/anacuahuitl, but these are two different trees. > Is anyone familiar with this tree and it's name? > Here is a picture of a mature tree's trunk and bark: > > http://valleygreenspace.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/old-age-woodpecker-hom-in-ancient-anacahuite.jpg > Here is a picture of the tree's flower, fruite and leaves: > http://magicedspotrerochico.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/036.jpg > > > Thank you in advance! > > Sincerely,Rafael Benavides > > > > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 252, Issue 4 > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:28:57 -0600 > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. More things to consider (IDIEZ) > > 2. Re: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli (Campbell, R. Joe) > > 3. Re: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli (IDIEZ) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:18:00 -0600 > > From: IDIEZ > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] More things to consider > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > > > Consider these examples, in which final morphemes are deleted in the > process of converting a verb to a noun, and how parallel options are used > to provide shades of meaning: > > 1. cuelpachoa, nic, "to fold s.t." > tlacuelpachtli, "a cuff" vs > tlacuelpacholli, "folded clothing." > > 2. payania, nic, "to crumble s.t." > cintli tlapayantli, "corn pieces" > vs "cintli tlapayanilli", "crumbled corn." > > 3. tentia, nic, "to sharpen s.t." > tlatentli, "cochiyoh tlatentli", "a > sharp knife," vs. "cochiyoh tlatentilli", "a sharpened knife." > > 4. pahtia, nic. "to fertilize or apply herbicide to a plant." > "toctli > tlapahtli", "a fertilized corn plant," "toctli tlapahtilli," "a corn plant > that has been fertilized." > > On the one hand we have objects that have undergone a completed > action, and on the other hand we have words that emphasize more the process > which the objects have undergone. Then there that little detail of the > morpheme deletion. > > The reason I'm starting to notice these, and many, many more > examples, is that we are working a lot on words in our dictionary that > begin with "tla-". > > John > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:23:41 -0500 > > From: "Campbell, R. Joe" > > To: IDIEZ > > Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli > > Message-ID: <20120307142341.rtvu3r380844wgog at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > Piyali Piljohntzi, > > > > This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky > thing... > > a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive > > suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the > > meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers > > to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses > > "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. > > > > examples: > > > > maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve > > > > (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) > > > > tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing > > cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door > > > > Joe > > > > > > *tla7 *** > > alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de > > cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- > > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde > > solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. > telli +ltl>ll tla7>. 55m-3| > > callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > ll>. 55m-10| > > camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o > > cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. > +xy>xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| > > caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; > > crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. > tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-20| > > cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a > > grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. > ma:tlatl-co2 tla7>. 55m-10| > > cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; > > grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). > > . 55m-10| > > centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o > > aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; > > senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| > > centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | > > centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). > > simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . > > 71m1-1202| > > centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. > yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-18| > > chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de > > leche. > tla7 +xy>x>. 71m2-8| > > conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > . 55m-10| > > cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de > > alguna cosa. . 55m-15| > > cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa¤o para cubrir la > > cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa¤o para cubrir la cabeza. > > . 55m-15| > > cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle > > down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| > > cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.2 f.13 p.208| > > cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de > > nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| > > cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. > cuitlatl-pan-ca:tl-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. > l tla7 +ly>ll>. 55m-1| > > icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o > > sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . > > 71m2-21| > > [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. > tahtli tla7 +kin>. b.10 f.1 p.9| > > icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; > > piuela de halcon. ll +z>x > > +a>i>. 55m-16| > > ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . > > 71m1-1202| > > ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de > > alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. > cua:itl tla7>. 55m-10| > > ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. > cua:itl tla7>. b.2 f.8 p.143| > > ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera > > cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la > > puerta. . 55m-2| > > ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. > i:xi:ptlatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.1 f.3 p.58| > > ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna > > cosa. . 71m2-21| > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. > i:xtli-pan-yo:tl1 +del.n tla7>. 71m2-21| > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa > > presente. . 55m-15| > > ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; > > grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- > > 21| > > ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que > > nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. > i:xtli-yoa:-l in chi:chi:3-hua1-l1-a:tl1-yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx > > +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| > > ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. > > xx>. 55m-10| > > maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- > > 13| > > mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. > > . 55m-3| > > mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. > tla7>. b.2 f.3 p.71| > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi > > is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| > > mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) > > | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa > > assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; > > escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- > > 102| > > mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. > dupl-ma:tlatl-yahualli tla7>. 55m-3| > > mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its > > steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| > > mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. > > . b.11 f.26 p.269| > > mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. > ma:tlatl-yoa:-l-co2 tla7>. b.12 f.4 p.63| > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after > > tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- > > 19| > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. > yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-1202| > > mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . > > b.8 f.5 p.81| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los > > manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish > > +prob>. 71m2-10| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| > > molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor > > para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. > hua:ztli tla7>. 71m1-151| > > nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina > > de edificio. . 55m-9| > > nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 > > p.123| > > nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. > tla7>. 55m-17| > > nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. > to:n-tl tla7>. b.11 f.18 p.182| > > nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. > dupl-to:n-plur02 tla7 plur10b +del.n>. b.10 f.4 p.77| > > nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. > tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| > > nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. > +e>i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > rayz para purgar. . 55m- > > 17| > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. > ni1 poss-nelhuatl tla7>. 71m1-191| > > ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > caminos. . 55m-6| > > ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > caminos (idem). . 55m-6| > > ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. > delya-l1 tla7>. b.6 f.19 p.247| > > ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. > > . b.11 f.21 p.218| > > pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado > > cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. > ++cahuallo tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; > > cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande > > y chico). . 55m-13| > > patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . > > 55m-16| > > pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . > > b.9 f.7 p.96| > > pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. > pechtli-yoa:-l tla7>. b.9 f.7 p.94| > > quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . > tla7>. b.2 f.4 p.84| > > quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de > > almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para > > emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-7| > > quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o > > fin de algo. . 71m2-23| > > tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de > > arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . > > 55m-8| > > telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque¤a; altozano; > > o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . > > 71m1-021| > > tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa¤o^ya quitado o > > cortado del mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado o cortado del > > mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado. > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . > > b.10 f.5 p.91| > > tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; > > trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; > > franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. > tla7>. 55m-9| > > tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . > l tla7>. b.11 f.27 p.279| > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing > > error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. > > . 55m-19| > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; > > postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. > l tla7 +tzy>tzy>. 55m-15| > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. > tepotztli-yo:tl1 tla7 +tzy>tz>. 71m2-23| > > til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. > > b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| > > tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; > > cuesta peque¤a. i>. 71m2-23| > > tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; > > trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| > > tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.27| > > tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . > > b.11 f.5 p.39| > > tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy > > feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| > > tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather > > down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| > > tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . > tla7>. b.2 f.10 p.164| > > tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. > yo:tl1-yo:tl1 tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.26| > > tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. > > chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- > > 18| > > tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-151| > > tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. > > b.10 f.10 p.167| > > tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. > telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| > > tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- > > 191| > > tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 > > p.99| > > tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. > tla7>. 55m-15| > > tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. > > . b.11 f.25 p.261| > > tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; > > garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| > > tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o > > cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o > > afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-001| > > tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; > > fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- > > 6| > > tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que > > queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- > > 17| > > xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. > telli-e:1-prt4 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. > xa:lli-poss-telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo > > delo entero y principal. . > > 55m-15| > > xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque¤a. > xelli-v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7>. 55m-15| > > xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . > +need:bird>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . > > 71m1-172| > > yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 > > p.64| > > > > morpheme count 332 > > > > > > > > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > > > > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > > > In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa > > > echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of > > > pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In > > > Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of > > > the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." > > > Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" > > > that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? > > > In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning > "something > > > that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with > > > it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same > > > way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. > > > And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the > > > variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation > > > between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel > > > length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge > > > provokes thought. > > > John > > > > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > > > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > > > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > > > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > > > idiez at me.com > > > www.macehualli.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:28:38 -0600 > > From: IDIEZ > > To: "Campbell, R. Joe" > > Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Piljoetzin, > > So in other words, in a case like "tlacuelpachtli", "cuff", we > are dealing with: > > 1. tla7 > > 2. cuelpachtli, the (compound) root of "cuelpachihui", "cuelpachoa" and > "cuelpachtic (by way of the unattested 'cuelpachti(ya).'" > > Right? > > John > > > > On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Campbell, R. Joe wrote: > > > > > Piyali Piljohntzi, > > > > > > This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky > thing... > > > a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive > > > suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the > > > meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers > > > to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses > > > "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. > > > > > > examples: > > > > > > maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve > > > > > > (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) > > > > > > tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing > > > cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > *tla7 *** > > > alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. > > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > > cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de > > > cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- > > > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > > callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde > > > solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. > > telli +ltl>ll tla7>. 55m-3| > > > callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > > ll>. 55m-10| > > > camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o > > > cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 > > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > > caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. > > +xy>xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| > > > caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; > > > crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. > > tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-20| > > > cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a > > > grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. > > ma:tlatl-co2 tla7>. 55m-10| > > > cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; > > > grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). > > > . 55m-10| > > > centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o > > > aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| > > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; > > > senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| > > > centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | > > > centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). > > > simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| > > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . > > > 71m1-1202| > > > centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. > > yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-18| > > > chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de > > > leche. > > tla7 +xy>x>. 71m2-8| > > > conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > > . 55m-10| > > > cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de > > > alguna cosa. . 55m-15| > > > cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa¤o para cubrir la > > > cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa¤o para cubrir la cabeza. > > > . 55m-15| > > > cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle > > > down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| > > > cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. > > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.2 f.13 p.208| > > > cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de > > > nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| > > > cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. > > cuitlatl-pan-ca:tl-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > > huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. > > l tla7 +ly>ll>. 55m-1| > > > icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o > > > sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . > > > 71m2-21| > > > [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. > > tahtli tla7 +kin>. b.10 f.1 p.9| > > > icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; > > > piuela de halcon. ll +z>x > > > +a>i>. 55m-16| > > > ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . > > > 71m1-1202| > > > ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de > > > alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. > > cua:itl tla7>. 55m-10| > > > ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. > > cua:itl tla7>. b.2 f.8 p.143| > > > ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera > > > cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la > > > puerta. . 55m-2| > > > ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. > > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > > ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. > > i:xi:ptlatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.1 f.3 p.58| > > > ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna > > > cosa. . 71m2-21| > > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. > > i:xtli-pan-yo:tl1 +del.n tla7>. 71m2-21| > > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa > > > presente. . 55m-15| > > > ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; > > > grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- > > > 21| > > > ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que > > > nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. > > i:xtli-yoa:-l in chi:chi:3-hua1-l1-a:tl1-yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx > > > +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| > > > ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. > > > xx>. 55m-10| > > > maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- > > > 13| > > > mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. > > > . 55m-3| > > > mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. > > tla7>. b.2 f.3 p.71| > > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi > > > is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| > > > mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) > > > | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa > > > assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| > > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; > > > escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- > > > 102| > > > mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. > > dupl-ma:tlatl-yahualli tla7>. 55m-3| > > > mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its > > > steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| > > > mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. > > > . b.11 f.26 p.269| > > > mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. > > ma:tlatl-yoa:-l-co2 tla7>. b.12 f.4 p.63| > > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after > > > tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- > > > 19| > > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. > > yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-1202| > > > mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . > > > b.8 f.5 p.81| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > > +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los > > > manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish > > > +prob>. 71m2-10| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > > peque¤os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 > > > +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| > > > molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor > > > para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. > > hua:ztli tla7>. 71m1-151| > > > nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina > > > de edificio. . 55m-9| > > > nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 > > > p.123| > > > nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. > > tla7>. 55m-17| > > > nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. > > to:n-tl tla7>. b.11 f.18 p.182| > > > nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. > > dupl-to:n-plur02 tla7 plur10b +del.n>. b.10 f.4 p.77| > > > nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. > > tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| > > > nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. > > +e>i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| > > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > > rayz para purgar. . 55m- > > > 17| > > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > > rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. > > ni1 poss-nelhuatl tla7>. 71m1-191| > > > ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > > caminos. . 55m-6| > > > ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > > caminos (idem). . 55m-6| > > > ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. > > delya-l1 tla7>. b.6 f.19 p.247| > > > ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. > > > . b.11 f.21 p.218| > > > pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado > > > cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. > > ++cahuallo tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > > pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; > > > cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. > > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > > paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande > > > y chico). . 55m-13| > > > patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . > > > 55m-16| > > > pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . > > > b.9 f.7 p.96| > > > pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. > > pechtli-yoa:-l tla7>. b.9 f.7 p.94| > > > quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . > > tla7>. b.2 f.4 p.84| > > > quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de > > > almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para > > > emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. > > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-7| > > > quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o > > > fin de algo. . 71m2-23| > > > tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de > > > arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . > > > 55m-8| > > > telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque¤a; altozano; > > > o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . > > > 71m1-021| > > > tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa¤o^ya quitado o > > > cortado del mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado o cortado del > > > mismo pa¤o; orillo de pa¤o ya quitado. > > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > > tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . > > > b.10 f.5 p.91| > > > tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; > > > trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; > > > franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. > > tla7>. 55m-9| > > > tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . > > l tla7>. b.11 f.27 p.279| > > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing > > > error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. > > > . 55m-19| > > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; > > > postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| > > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. > > l tla7 +tzy>tzy>. 55m-15| > > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. > > tepotztli-yo:tl1 tla7 +tzy>tz>. 71m2-23| > > > til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. > > > b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > > tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. > > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| > > > tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; > > > cuesta peque¤a. i>. 71m2-23| > > > tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; > > > trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| > > > tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. > > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > > tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. > > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.27| > > > tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . > > > b.11 f.5 p.39| > > > tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy > > > feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| > > > tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather > > > down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| > > > tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . > > tla7>. b.2 f.10 p.164| > > > tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. > > yo:tl1-yo:tl1 tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.26| > > > tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. > > > chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- > > > 18| > > > tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-151| > > > tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. > > > b.10 f.10 p.167| > > > tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. > > telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| > > > tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- > > > 191| > > > tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 > > > p.99| > > > tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. > > tla7>. 55m-15| > > > tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. > > > . b.11 f.25 p.261| > > > tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; > > > garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| > > > tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o > > > cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o > > > afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. > > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-001| > > > tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; > > > fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- > > > 6| > > > tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que > > > queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- > > > 17| > > > xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. > > telli-e:1-prt4 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > > xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. > > xa:lli-poss-telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > > xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo > > > delo entero y principal. . > > > 55m-15| > > > xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque¤a. > > xelli-v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7>. 55m-15| > > > xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . > > +need:bird>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > > yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . > > > 71m1-172| > > > yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 > > > p.64| > > > > > > morpheme count 332 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > > > > > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > > >> In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa > > >> echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of > > >> pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In > > >> Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of > > >> the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." > > >> Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" > > >> that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? > > >> In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning > "something > > >> that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with > > >> it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same > > >> way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. > > >> And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the > > >> variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation > > >> between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel > > >> length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge > > >> provokes thought. > > >> John > > >> > > >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > > >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > > >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > > >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > > >> idiez at me.com > > >> www.macehualli.org > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 252, Issue 4 > > *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 15 17:28:40 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:28:40 -0600 Subject: Florentine republished Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, I have just received word that in mid April the U of Utah Press will release a new paperback edition (with original color illustrations in color) of Anderson and Dibble's 12 volume Florentine Codex. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Fri Mar 16 02:03:00 2012 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:03:00 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 253, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ANAKAHUITA: I UNDERTAIN LIKE INAKUHITO: IR A LEVANTAR. O KON HAH KUITOH. PAYANIA: MOLER, MAJAR, EN TERCERAPERSONA YE KI PAYANIA I KAFEN EL MUELE EL CAFÈ DE EL/ELLA TENTIA: AFILAR YEH TLA TENTIA: EL AFILA PAHTIA: CURAR: JACINTO TLAPAHTIA JACINTO CURA GOOD DAY _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Sun Mar 18 10:05:25 2012 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 03:05:25 -0700 Subject: October 28 observance Message-ID: Listeros, I’m interesting in finding out the geographical distribution of the observance of the dead on October 28.  In the Tepoztlán area this day honors los matados, “the slain ones,” - oquinmictique, i.e., people who have died without the sacrament of extreme unction such as suicides, murder and accident victims, as well as people who have drowned or been struck by lightning. If you can give me a locale in the Republic (or anywhere else) where this “dia de los matados” is observed I’d be extremely grateful. Thanks in advance,Tom Grigsby _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Mon Mar 19 09:38:44 2012 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 03:38:44 -0600 Subject: yomoni, ixyoyomoni; atzcalli In-Reply-To: <6570f50d19838e580bb52bc3ba30c5cd.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Hallo Gordon, Bist Du in Deutschland? Also eine kleine Erklärung in deutscher und spanischer Sprache. In den Nahua-Varianten von Chachahuantla (Huauhchinango) und Cuetzalan ist yomoni nicht bekannt. Man hat aber das Wort moyoni und auch ixmoyoni, ixmomoyoni und ixmohmoyoni. Moyoni: beschreibt die Bewegung von Ameisen und Bienen, nachdem der Ameisenhaufen bzw. der Bienenschwarm mit einem Stab berührt worden ist. Sie (Ameisen und Bienen) gehen bzw. fliegen in "allen" Richtungen. In Spanisch sagt man "alborotar" dafür. Das Wort hat aber auch andere Bedeutungen. Moyoni also bezieht sich auf (vor allem) Tiere, die aus einem Punkt in verschiedenen richtungen auseinandergehen. Ixmoyoni: Gebärden machen. Aber diese Gebärden sollten die Augen als Ausgangspunkt haben (dieselbe Idee der o.g. Bewegung) Ixmomoyoni: Gebärden wiederholt machen Ixmohmoyoni: Man macht eine Gebärde und dann keine, dann aber eine, dann keine, dann aber noch eine, usw. En las variantes nahuas de Chachahuantla (Area de Huauchinango) y Cuetzalan no se conoce la palabra yomoni. Se tiene sin embargo la palabra moyoni, y también ixmoyoni, ixmomoyoni, ixmohmoyoni. Moyoni: describe el movimiento de las hormigas y abejas después de que el hormiguero o enjambre a sido tocado por ej. con un palo. Los animalitos caminan o vuelan en "todas" direcciones. En español decimos "alborotar", pero la palabra tiene también otros significados. Moyoni se refiere, por tanto, a -sobre todo- animales que desde un punto central se dispersan, desperdigan en diferentes direcciones. Ixmoyoni: hacer gestos. Pero estos gestos deberán tener como punto de origen los ojos (la misma idea del movimiento mencionado arriba). Ixmomoyoni: hacer gestos de manera repetida. Ixmohmoyoni: hacer un gesto, luego ninguno, luego uno, luego ninguno, pero luego un gesto más y etc. Nimitzyoltlapalohua Tomas Amaya 2012/3/7 Gordon Whittaker > Dear Nahua(tl at lists.famsi.org)tlaca, > > I've been trying to find information on a verb and its derivatives that > relates to a glyph in the Nahuatl writing system of the mid-16th century. > > The verb is (a spelling for yomo:ni/yo'mo:ni/yo:mo:ni), > approximately 'twitch, itch', among other things. > > Related to this is 'grimace, make faces', composed of i:x- > 'face' and what is presumably yo'yomo:ni or yo'yo:mo:ni. > > I would be very grateful if someone could let me know if there is any > dialect (or textual) evidence for the shape of the syllables and > in these two related verbs. In particular, is there any direct > evidence for a short or long vowel, or vowel plus glottal stop/fricative > ('/h), in the first syllable of ? Has anyone come across the > compound in a modern dialect? Given the meaning of the > compound, the first syllable of is presumably yo'/yoh. > > Term 2: Another elusive form is the Florentine Codex's (a kind > of shell). I presume a compound of a:- 'water', and a verbal element with > subsequent syncope of *tzical-. Has anyone seen or heard evidence for the > length of the initial vowel? Thanks again for any tips. > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Prof. Dr. Gordon Whittaker > Direktor > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta4 at googlemail.com Tue Mar 20 15:42:59 2012 From: gwhitta4 at googlemail.com (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:42:59 +0100 Subject: yomo:ni vs. moyo:ni -- a metathetical relationship? Message-ID: Tomastzine, Many thanks for your valuable comments! A couple of days before receiving your mail I had been communicating with Jonathan Amith on and he remarked that it "sounds sounds something like moyo:ni, which is used for the agitated movement of disturbed insects" in Guerrero Nahuatl. That got me thinking about the possibility that might just be a local or regional metathetical variant of the well-attested moyo:ni. So I checked Molina and this is what I came up with: Moyoni. bullir las hormigas gusanos o cosa semejante. [...] Yomoni. bullir los gusanos, o piojos, pulgas, hormigas, o cosas semejantes, o dar mucha comezon los granos o la serna, o tener gran encendimiento de la carne los mozos o mozas luxuriosas. Yoyomiquiliztli. comezon. Yoyomoca. ni. tener comezon. Yoyomoctli. los riñones. I think the striking similarity between the first two entries strongly suggests not only a semantic but also a morphological/genetic relationship between the two verbs. So then I checked the Florentine Codex, and this is what I found in Bk. 10, Ch. 27, Par. 12 (p. 131 in Dibble and Anderson): *Testis Joiomoctli: * [...] it moves lasciviously moioma, both move lasciviously moiôioma, it stirs iomonj, it swoons with lasciviousness iôionmjquj, [...] Sahagún's juxtaposition of these verbs again suggests a close semantic, if not morphological, relationship. I suspect that might refer to making faces by rolling the eyes and twitching the face. The <ô> of Sahagún is likely to be o + glottal stop. What is interesting here is the fact that the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the first. So in both these verbs, and , we have a reduplicated /yo'/ (with glottal stop). The verbs with initial /yo/ are likely to be local or regional variants hailing from Mexico and/or Tetzcoco and environs. Cf. also the dynastic name Yoyontli. Tomás, your information on similar verbs in Chachahuantla and Cuetzalan, especially on ixmomoyoni (for i:xmo:moyo:ni, with the first o vowel long?) and ixmohmoyoni, is, I think, confirmation of this hypothesis. It would be interesting to know if the same compounds turn up elsewhere. Thanks so much for your very useful comments. Cenca' nimitztlazo'ca:mati! Übrigens, Dein Deutsch ist bewundernswert. Ich wünschte mir, meins wäre so gut! I am also very grateful to Jonathan Amith, John Sullivan and to the contributors to the totlahtol list for their thought-provoking comments and data. Best wishes, Gordon On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino < t_amaya at megared.net.mx > wrote: Hallo Gordon, Bist Du in Deutschland? Also eine kleine Erklärung in deutscher und spanischer Sprache. In den Nahua-Varianten von Chachahuantla (Huauhchinango) und Cuetzalan ist yomoni nicht bekannt. Man hat aber das Wort moyoni und auch ixmoyoni, ixmomoyoni und ixmohmoyoni. Moyoni: beschreibt die Bewegung von Ameisen und Bienen, nachdem der Ameisenhaufen bzw. der Bienenschwarm mit einem Stab berührt worden ist. Sie (Ameisen und Bienen) gehen bzw. fliegen in "allen" Richtungen. In Spanisch sagt man "alborotar" dafür. Das Wort hat aber auch andere Bedeutungen. Moyoni also bezieht sich auf (vor allem) Tiere, die aus einem Punkt in verschiedenen richtungen auseinandergehen. Ixmoyoni: Gebärden machen. Aber diese Gebärden sollten die Augen als Ausgangspunkt haben (dieselbe Idee der o.g. Bewegung) Ixmomoyoni: Gebärden wiederholt machen Ixmohmoyoni: Man macht eine Gebärde und dann keine, dann aber eine, dann keine, dann aber noch eine, usw. En las variantes nahuas de Chachahuantla (Area de Huauchinango) y Cuetzalan no se conoce la palabra yomoni. Se tiene sin embargo la palabra moyoni, y también ixmoyoni, ixmomoyoni, ixmohmoyoni. Moyoni: describe el movimiento de las hormigas y abejas después de que el hormiguero o enjambre a sido tocado por ej. con un palo. Los animalitos caminan o vuelan en "todas" direcciones. En español decimos "alborotar", pero la palabra tiene también otros significados. Moyoni se refiere, por tanto, a -sobre todo- animales que desde un punto central se dispersan, desperdigan en diferentes direcciones. Ixmoyoni: hacer gestos. Pero estos gestos deberán tener como punto de origen los ojos (la misma idea del movimiento mencionado arriba). Ixmomoyoni: hacer gestos de manera repetida. Ixmohmoyoni: hacer un gesto, luego ninguno, luego uno, luego ninguno, pero luego un gesto más y etc. Nimitzyoltlapalohua Tomas Amaya 2012/3/7 Gordon Whittaker > Dear Nahua(tl at lists.famsi.org )tlaca, I've been trying to find information on a verb and its derivatives that relates to a glyph in the Nahuatl writing system of the mid-16th century. The verb is (a spelling for yomo:ni/yo'mo:ni/yo:mo:ni), approximately 'twitch, itch', among other things. Related to this is 'grimace, make faces', composed of i:x- 'face' and what is presumably yo'yomo:ni or yo'yo:mo:ni. I would be very grateful if someone could let me know if there is any dialect (or textual) evidence for the shape of the syllables and in these two related verbs. In particular, is there any direct evidence for a short or long vowel, or vowel plus glottal stop/fricative ('/h), in the first syllable of ? Has anyone come across the compound in a modern dialect? Given the meaning of the compound, the first syllable of is presumably yo'/yoh. Term 2: Another elusive form is the Florentine Codex's (a kind of shell). I presume a compound of a:- 'water', and a verbal element with subsequent syncope of *tzical-. Has anyone seen or heard evidence for the length of the initial vowel? Thanks again for any tips. Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Prof. Dr. Gordon Whittaker Direktor Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta4 at googlemail.com Wed Mar 21 08:10:43 2012 From: gwhitta4 at googlemail.com (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:10:43 +0100 Subject: moyoma (vs. moyoni) reconsidered Message-ID: Dear Nahuatl(@lists.famsi.org)aca, Not long after clicking on Send to submit my last post on yomo:ni vs. moyo:ni I realized that I should have gotten a little more sleep before writing it. While rereading the post I noticed that I had completely overlooked the obvious fact that Sahagún's and are not odd cognates of moyo:ni (and yomo:ni) but rather simple reflexives with prefixed mo-. Oops! So my comment "What is interesting here is the fact that the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the first. " is not interesting at all, because the verb stem is actually , not (in the Florentine's orthography). I stand by the other remarks and comparisons made, concerning the relationship between Molina's and . The metathesis of moyo:ni to yomo:ni, if that is what has happened, may have been facilitated by the existence of the verb mo-yoma (for which I have not yet found attestations with long o), given its semantics. Best wishes, Gordon > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:42:59 +0100 > From: Gordon Whittaker > To: t_amaya at megared.net.mx > Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] yomo:ni vs. moyo:ni -- a metathetical > relationship? > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Tomastzine, > > Many thanks for your valuable comments! A couple of days before receiving > your mail I had been communicating with Jonathan Amith on and he > remarked that it "sounds sounds something like moyo:ni, which is used for > the agitated movement of disturbed insects" in Guerrero Nahuatl. That got > me thinking about the possibility that might just be a local or > regional metathetical variant of the well-attested moyo:ni. > > So I checked Molina and this is what I came up with: > > Moyoni. bullir las hormigas gusanos o cosa semejante. > [...] > Yomoni. bullir los gusanos, o piojos, pulgas, hormigas, o cosas > semejantes, o dar mucha comezon los granos o la serna, o tener gran > encendimiento de la carne los mozos o mozas luxuriosas. > Yoyomiquiliztli. comezon. > Yoyomoca. ni. tener comezon. > Yoyomoctli. los riñones. > > I think the striking similarity between the first two entries strongly > suggests not only a semantic but also a morphological/genetic relationship > between the two verbs. > > So then I checked the Florentine Codex, and this is what I found in Bk. 10, > Ch. 27, Par. 12 (p. 131 in Dibble and Anderson): > > *Testis Joiomoctli: * > [...] > it moves lasciviously moioma, > both move lasciviously moiôioma, > it stirs iomonj, > it swoons with lasciviousness iôionmjquj, > [...] > > Sahagún's juxtaposition of these verbs again suggests a close semantic, if > not morphological, relationship. I suspect that might refer to > making faces by rolling the eyes and twitching the face. The <ô> of Sahagún > is likely to be o + glottal stop. What is interesting here is the fact that > the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the first. So > in both these verbs, and , we have a reduplicated > /yo'/ (with glottal stop). The verbs with initial /yo/ are likely to be > local or regional variants hailing from Mexico and/or Tetzcoco and > environs. Cf. also the dynastic name Yoyontli. > > Tomás, your information on similar verbs in Chachahuantla and Cuetzalan, > especially on ixmomoyoni (for i:xmo:moyo:ni, with the first o vowel long?) > and ixmohmoyoni, is, I think, confirmation of this hypothesis. It would be > interesting to know if the same compounds turn up elsewhere. Thanks so much > for your very useful comments. Cenca' nimitztlazo'ca:mati! Übrigens, Dein > Deutsch ist bewundernswert. Ich wünschte mir, meins wäre so gut! > > I am also very grateful to Jonathan Amith, John Sullivan and to the > contributors to the totlahtol list for their thought-provoking comments and > data. > > Best wishes, > Gordon > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 13:00:17 2012 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:00:17 -0400 Subject: moyoma (vs. moyoni) reconsidered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Gordon, I don't know the context of moioma but probably reflexive of yoma. This refers to a sort of scooping, tangential motion of a dragon/damselfly on the water, a woman's body as she grinds corn on a metate, and a man's body as he makes love as God ordained. In fact there is a Nahuatl riddle to this effect, nochi to:nahli cho tlayoyontok.... (cho is an intensifier). Molina has "amblar la mujer" for yoma, nino- Best, Jonathan On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:10 AM, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > Dear Nahuatl(@lists.famsi.org)aca, > > Not long after clicking on Send to submit my last post on yomo:ni vs. > moyo:ni I realized that I should have gotten a little more sleep before > writing it. While rereading the post I noticed that I had completely > overlooked the obvious fact that Sahagún's and are not > odd cognates of moyo:ni (and yomo:ni) but rather simple reflexives with > prefixed mo-. Oops! So my comment "What is interesting here is the fact > that the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the > first. " is not interesting at all, because the verb stem is actually > , not (in the Florentine's orthography). > > I stand by the other remarks and comparisons made, concerning the > relationship between Molina's and . The metathesis of > moyo:ni to yomo:ni, if that is what has happened, may have been facilitated > by the existence of the verb mo-yoma (for which I have not yet found > attestations with long o), given its semantics. > > Best wishes, > Gordon > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:42:59 +0100 >> From: Gordon Whittaker >> To: t_amaya at megared.net.mx >> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] yomo:ni vs. moyo:ni -- a metathetical >> relationship? >> Message-ID: >> > mth4OL7AJyjYh+KiukA at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Tomastzine, >> >> Many thanks for your valuable comments! A couple of days before receiving >> your mail I had been communicating with Jonathan Amith on and he >> remarked that it "sounds sounds something like moyo:ni, which is used for >> the agitated movement of disturbed insects" in Guerrero Nahuatl. That got >> me thinking about the possibility that might just be a local or >> regional metathetical variant of the well-attested moyo:ni. >> >> So I checked Molina and this is what I came up with: >> >> Moyoni. bullir las hormigas gusanos o cosa semejante. >> [...] >> Yomoni. bullir los gusanos, o piojos, pulgas, hormigas, o cosas >> semejantes, o dar mucha comezon los granos o la serna, o tener gran >> encendimiento de la carne los mozos o mozas luxuriosas. >> Yoyomiquiliztli. comezon. >> Yoyomoca. ni. tener comezon. >> Yoyomoctli. los riñones. >> >> I think the striking similarity between the first two entries strongly >> suggests not only a semantic but also a morphological/genetic relationship >> between the two verbs. >> >> So then I checked the Florentine Codex, and this is what I found in Bk. >> 10, >> Ch. 27, Par. 12 (p. 131 in Dibble and Anderson): >> >> *Testis Joiomoctli: * >> [...] >> it moves lasciviously moioma, >> both move lasciviously moiôioma, >> it stirs iomonj, >> it swoons with lasciviousness iôionmjquj, >> [...] >> >> Sahagún's juxtaposition of these verbs again suggests a close semantic, if >> not morphological, relationship. I suspect that might refer >> to >> making faces by rolling the eyes and twitching the face. The <ô> of >> Sahagún >> is likely to be o + glottal stop. What is interesting here is the fact >> that >> the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the first. >> So >> in both these verbs, and , we have a reduplicated >> /yo'/ (with glottal stop). The verbs with initial /yo/ are likely to be >> local or regional variants hailing from Mexico and/or Tetzcoco and >> environs. Cf. also the dynastic name Yoyontli. >> >> Tomás, your information on similar verbs in Chachahuantla and Cuetzalan, >> especially on ixmomoyoni (for i:xmo:moyo:ni, with the first o vowel long?) >> and ixmohmoyoni, is, I think, confirmation of this hypothesis. It would be >> interesting to know if the same compounds turn up elsewhere. Thanks so >> much >> for your very useful comments. Cenca' nimitztlazo'ca:mati! Übrigens, Dein >> Deutsch ist bewundernswert. Ich wünschte mir, meins wäre so gut! >> >> I am also very grateful to Jonathan Amith, John Sullivan and to the >> contributors to the totlahtol list for their thought-provoking comments >> and >> data. >> >> Best wishes, >> Gordon >> > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 22 02:07:06 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600 Subject: malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, if indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 17:55:11 2012 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:55:11 -0400 Subject: Malacachoa Message-ID: Listeros, Again Canger's Five Studies leads us on the way. She shows that the -oa ending comes from earlier -i:wa which means that there must have once been a verb pair called *malacachi:wa (transitive) and *malacachiwi (intransitive), these could be derived from malaca + chiwa "make/do" through a noun incorporation. Malacachtic is obviously derived from the verb. best, Magnus ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: IDIEZ > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Cc: > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, if > indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there? > John > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. student Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 22 21:25:35 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:25:35 -0600 Subject: Malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, In fact there is a ma:lacachihui and ma:lacachoa:. And what Una says makes sense. But you would have to start with an initial noun ma:lacachtli. This would be turned into a verb in two ways. One would be ma:lacachti (adding the verber "-ti") or ma:lacachtiya (adding both verbers "-ti" and "-ya"). The preterite form of either one would be ma:lacachtic and it would simultaneously work as an adjective/adverb. The other route would be to add the verber "-ihui" to the base noun, producing ma:lacachihui. The causative of this form would be ma:lacachoa: (originally, ma:lacachihua, like Una says). However, the "ch" is part of the original noun stem, not the beginning of "chihui>chihua". And I just noticed today that the root noun has a long "a" (ma:lacachtli). "malacatl" has all short vowels. John On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Listeros, > > Again Canger's Five Studies leads us on the way. She shows that the -oa > ending comes from earlier -i:wa which means that there must have once been > a verb pair called *malacachi:wa (transitive) and *malacachiwi > (intransitive), these could be derived from malaca + chiwa "make/do" > through a noun incorporation. Malacachtic is obviously derived from the > verb. > > best, > Magnus > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: IDIEZ >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Cc: >> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, if >> indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there? >> John >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 22 23:55:17 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:55:17 -0600 Subject: Malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, So taking malacachihui/malacachoa, etc., as an example, what is the verb of origin and how does it get to malacachtli? John On Mar 22, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > My basic point that i keep trying to get across on the list is that it is necessary to take into account the phonological and morphological history of words when making etymologies. Very few of the people making etymologies here use anything more than Nahuatl dictionaries to do so - this is a shame because there is a lot of very good literature such as Canger and Dakin's historical studies that show what kinds of derivations are probable and possible and which aren't. This seems to me to be a clear example of this where we know something about the history of affixes and roots, which doesn't support the existence of a noun ma:lacachtli prior to the verb ma:lacachoa/malacachihui, but rather derved from it. > > best, > Magnus > > On 22 March 2012 18:04, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > John, I know there are those two nouns, I was explaining that they both historically come from the same verb form. I don't believe theycome from a noun malacachtli rather the noun malacachtli would have to come form the verbs historically. Malacachti would be the causative forms of the intransitive one of those, and yes the malacachtic adjective form would be derived from it - but they all come from original *ma:lacachiwa. I short I believe you are deriving the wrong way by going from noun to verb - rather inNahuatl it is almost always the case thatnouns are derived frm verbs and in this case there is compelling indicia that this is the case. > > You cannot derive it with malacach + ihui that suffix doesn't exist historicall but are two different suffices with different histories. The -wa/-wi is an historical ending the i is part of the precceding suffix. > > best > Magnus > > > On 22 March 2012 17:25, IDIEZ wrote: > Magnus, > In fact there is a ma:lacachihui and ma:lacachoa:. And what Una says makes sense. But you would have to start with an initial noun ma:lacachtli. This would be turned into a verb in two ways. One would be ma:lacachti (adding the verber "-ti") or ma:lacachtiya (adding both verbers "-ti" and "-ya"). The preterite form of either one would be ma:lacachtic and it would simultaneously work as an adjective/adverb. The other route would be to add the verber "-ihui" to the base noun, producing ma:lacachihui. The causative of this form would be ma:lacachoa: (originally, ma:lacachihua, like Una says). However, the "ch" is part of the original noun stem, not the beginning of "chihui>chihua". And I just noticed today that the root noun has a long "a" (ma:lacachtli). "malacatl" has all short vowels. > John > > On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > Listeros, > > > > Again Canger's Five Studies leads us on the way. She shows that the -oa > > ending comes from earlier -i:wa which means that there must have once been > > a verb pair called *malacachi:wa (transitive) and *malacachiwi > > (intransitive), these could be derived from malaca + chiwa "make/do" > > through a noun incorporation. Malacachtic is obviously derived from the > > verb. > > > > best, > > Magnus > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> From: IDIEZ > >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> Cc: > >> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600 > >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > >> How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, if > >> indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there? > >> John > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. student > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Fri Mar 23 02:46:09 2012 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:46:09 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 254, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MALAKACHTIK: AGUJERO REDONDO, OMOMALACACHOH: SE DIO UN JIRO. MEKATL MALAKACHITIK: CUERDA RETORCIDA MALAKACHIHUI: QUE SE RETUERSE, O QUE ES PROBABLE QUE SUFRA ESE CAMBIO. ININ KUAHUITL MALAKACHIHUI ESTE PALO SE PUEDE RETORCER. BUIEN DIA _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta4 at googlemail.com Fri Mar 23 09:10:57 2012 From: gwhitta4 at googlemail.com (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:10:57 +0100 Subject: moyoma (vs. moyoni) reconsidered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, Your description of the semantic range of yoma is not only very informative but also refreshingly picturesque! Do I understand correctly that the verb in Guerrero Nahuatl has a short o? In Alexis Wimmer's extensive online dictionary the verb is given with long o. I wonder if this is based on an assumption that the verb is analogous to zo:ma (which it isn't)? She gives no source for the long vowel, and I can find nothing that would support her rendition. I find it interesting that the Guerrero verb is transitive (as well as reflexive?), whereas the Valley of Mexico verb seems so far only to occur as a reflexive. With regard to the sexual sense of the verb, which is primary in the Valley of Mexico, do you have any information on whether the reflexive can be used to describe the grinding movement of a woman during intercourse, or is it used in Guerrero only in reference to a man's movements? If you don't have it yet in your files could you check this with your consultants, please? One last thing: You mentioned previously that there's a Guerrero verb te:nmo:moyo:ni. Does anyone in Guerrero know of a compound i:xmo:moyo:ni (or i:xmo'moyo:ni with glottal stop)? Thanks again for all your help and for the fascinating verbal semantics. Best, Gordon P.S. What's the exact translation of the riddle (and its solution)? On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Jonathan Amith wrote: > Dear Gordon, > > I don't know the context of moioma but probably reflexive of yoma. This > refers to a sort of scooping, tangential motion of a dragon/damselfly on > the water, a woman's body as she grinds corn on a metate, and a man's body > as he makes love as God ordained. In fact there is a Nahuatl riddle to this > effect, nochi to:nahli cho tlayoyontok.... (cho is an intensifier). > > Molina has "amblar la mujer" for yoma, nino- > > Best, Jonathan > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 14:12:19 2012 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:12:19 -0400 Subject: moyoma (vs. moyoni) reconsidered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Gordon, Yes, I have it with a short vowel. There are few verbs that really can't be both reflexive and transitive. However, it is important to distinguish between "reflexively marked" and "reflexive" in the semantic/argument sense as a two-participant event where participant 1 and 2 have the same referent. Thus certain verbs of bodily function are marked reflexive. In the Cuetzalan area there is a difference between mihso:ta and moihso:ta, the first refering to 'vomit' nimihso:ta where the second is 'to vomit on oneself'. The transitive use would be with the object that which is vomited (kihso:ta esti or kiihso:ta esti) whereas the causative would be 'to provoke vomiting in' (ne:chihso:taltia 'it provokes vomiting in me'). So, the reflexive use of yoma or yohyoma would probably refer to a bodily motion. The verb tlalowa / talowa is also reflexively marked and cannot take an object (motalowa, 'to run') but I do not think ?kitalowa. cf. kitalo:chtia, 'to incite to run' or something to that effect). Molina, I believe (don't have it here right now) has yoyoma as a reflexively marked verb, with the meaning refering to 'albar la mujer' (if I remember). It might be that in Guerrero the use with ki- is innovative. I didn't remember correctly but the riddle (see below) uses the reflexively marked noyoyontok (no- is the reflexive marker) The use of the reflexive marker is documented from a riddle and the sexually ambiguous reference to 'metate' and 'woman' as the subject is problematic in the sense that the reflexive marker would probably have slightly different implications. The reflexive marker use in Balsas Nahuatl is really at times difficult. It can be a detransitivizer (e.g., notsakua, refering a a wound that is healing/closing up) or it can be a passive-like construction (mo:stla nochi:was 'tomorrow it will get done'). The 3rd person plural can also be used, though it would seem to indicate less involvement of the speaker: ke:hchi:was(k)eh which with a nonspecific agent would be similar to 'it will be fixed/they (unspecific) will fix it'. Ne:hchi:was could be either 'it will get fixed (e.g., something that fixes itself) or 'it will get fixed' (something for which speaker takes some responsibility, sort of like 'I'll see to it that it gets fixed'. So the use of the reflexive in the riddle (noyoyontok) would seem to guide the listener to a more off-color interpretation as either the woman as the subject of a verb indicating bodily motion or as an object for which the speaker (in this case the teller of the riddle) is taking some "responsbility" for the event occurring. I have always heard yoma as having as its object that which is struck in the manner indicated (water, metate, woman). The name of the dragonfly in Ameyaltepec is a:yoyontsi:n, which I always took to refer to the type of motion it performs on the surface of the water. In Oapan it is áabió:ntsi:n which would be 'toy airplane' from the reduplicated Spanish borrowing. It might be that this is the result of a "folk etymology' a:yoyontsi:n > áabió:ntsi:n. I similar switch occurred with a plant name for Calliandra houstoniana. In one village in the eastern Balsas valley it is called kahkabai:toh "toy horse". The name is only explaining in comparing it to other more western villages: kabai:toh de a:ngel (angel's horse'). The Spanish name is 'cabello de ángel'. So 'cabello' was reinterpreted as 'caballo' and then in one village the Spanish 'de ángel' was dropped and the noun reduplicated to indicate a metaphoric extension/play. It might be that Oapan áabió:ntsi:n, therefore, is not simply the result of equating the dragonfly with an airplane, but in a folk change of a:yoyontsi:n. \ref 02913 \lxam yoyoma \lxam_c kiyoyoma \lxoa yóyomá \lxoa_pr yoyoma \lxoa_c kí:yomá \psm V2 \infv class-3a(m) \der V2-b \lexical Op. prefix te- \pitch yes \sense_e (reduplicated with a long or short vowel, depending on the circumstances) to skim against in a curved motion, skimming against the surface of the object at the bottom of the curve (note: the prototypical motion of this sort is that made by a woman grinding nextamahli on a metate) \sense_s (con reduplicación de vocal larga o corta, dependiendo de las circumstancias) pegar rozando con una moción encorvada (rozando la superficie del objeto al punto más bajo de la curva; el ejemplo prototípico de esta acción es la de una mujer moliendo nixtamal sobre un metate) \sense_d Am \phrase_n Tlateyo:yontok ipan a:tl a:yoyontsi:n. \phrase_d Am \phrase_e The dragonfly skims against the surface of the water. \phrase_s La libélula pasa rozando sobre la superficie del agua. \phrase_n Yo:li:k kiteyo:yontok imetl, xnotlasiwi:tia. \phrase_d Am \phrase_e She is slowly pushing down again and again against her metate, she's not in any hurry. \phrase_s Despacio empuja y empuja contra su metate, no se apura. \sense_e (fig.) to have sexual intercourse with (a man [S] with a woman [O] based on the type of motion involved) \sense_s (fig.) tener relaciones sexuales con (un hombre [S] con una mujer [O] basado en el tipo de moción utilizado) \sense_d Pending \phrase_n Kiyo:yoma isuwa:w. \phrase_d Am \phrase_e He has sex with his wife. \phrase_s Tiene relaciones sexuales con su esposa. \sem motion \root yoma \nsem The action indicated by yoma has only been documented in the three types of motion noted above: a dragonfly against water, a woman grinding on a metate, and a man having intercourse with a woman. Because of the latter, this word is often used in double entendres, as in the riddle Se: tosa:sa:ne:l, se: tosa:sa:ne:l, se: tona:na:tsi:n, san nochipa noyoyontok 'Una adivinanza, una adivinanza: A una señora, siempre la estarán fregando (es el metate).' In Oapan yoma, which is only found reduplicated with either long or short vowel, only has a sexual sense, referring to the action of the male in mounting a female (in reference to human intercourse and that of donkeys, dogs, pigs, and other similar animals). \qry Determine difference and if both are possible: /yo:yoma/ and /yoyoma/. \revised 25/May/2007 On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > Your description of the semantic range of yoma is not only very > informative but also refreshingly picturesque! > > Do I understand correctly that the verb in Guerrero Nahuatl has a short o? > In Alexis Wimmer's extensive online dictionary the verb is given with long > o. I wonder if this is based on an assumption that the verb is analogous to > zo:ma (which it isn't)? She gives no source for the long vowel, and I can > find nothing that would support her rendition. > > I find it interesting that the Guerrero verb is transitive (as well as > reflexive?), whereas the Valley of Mexico verb seems so far only to occur > as a reflexive. > > With regard to the sexual sense of the verb, which is primary in the > Valley of Mexico, do you have any information on whether the reflexive can > be used to describe the grinding movement of a woman during intercourse, or > is it used in Guerrero only in reference to a man's movements? If you don't > have it yet in your files could you check this with your consultants, > please? > > One last thing: You mentioned previously that there's a Guerrero verb > te:nmo:moyo:ni. Does anyone in Guerrero know of a compound i:xmo:moyo:ni > (or i:xmo'moyo:ni with glottal stop)? > > Thanks again for all your help and for the fascinating verbal semantics. > > Best, > Gordon > > P.S. What's the exact translation of the riddle (and its solution)? > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Jonathan Amith wrote: > >> Dear Gordon, >> >> I don't know the context of moioma but probably reflexive of yoma. This >> refers to a sort of scooping, tangential motion of a dragon/damselfly on >> the water, a woman's body as she grinds corn on a metate, and a man's body >> as he makes love as God ordained. In fact there is a Nahuatl riddle to this >> effect, nochi to:nahli cho tlayoyontok.... (cho is an intensifier). >> >> Molina has "amblar la mujer" for yoma, nino- >> >> Best, Jonathan >> >> > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 15:02:01 2012 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:02:01 -0400 Subject: moyoma (vs. moyoni) reconsidered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, I forgot, i:xmoyo:nwetska to lightly smile, somethinig like 'dibujársele [a alguien] una sonrisa en la cara'. I imagine the i:xmoyo:n- refers to the very subtle facial movement. On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:10 AM, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > Dear Nahuatl(@lists.famsi.org)aca, > > Not long after clicking on Send to submit my last post on yomo:ni vs. > moyo:ni I realized that I should have gotten a little more sleep before > writing it. While rereading the post I noticed that I had completely > overlooked the obvious fact that Sahagún's and are not > odd cognates of moyo:ni (and yomo:ni) but rather simple reflexives with > prefixed mo-. Oops! So my comment "What is interesting here is the fact > that the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the > first. " is not interesting at all, because the verb stem is actually > , not (in the Florentine's orthography). > > I stand by the other remarks and comparisons made, concerning the > relationship between Molina's and . The metathesis of > moyo:ni to yomo:ni, if that is what has happened, may have been facilitated > by the existence of the verb mo-yoma (for which I have not yet found > attestations with long o), given its semantics. > > Best wishes, > Gordon > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:42:59 +0100 >> From: Gordon Whittaker >> To: t_amaya at megared.net.mx >> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] yomo:ni vs. moyo:ni -- a metathetical >> relationship? >> Message-ID: >> > mth4OL7AJyjYh+KiukA at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Tomastzine, >> >> Many thanks for your valuable comments! A couple of days before receiving >> your mail I had been communicating with Jonathan Amith on and he >> remarked that it "sounds sounds something like moyo:ni, which is used for >> the agitated movement of disturbed insects" in Guerrero Nahuatl. That got >> me thinking about the possibility that might just be a local or >> regional metathetical variant of the well-attested moyo:ni. >> >> So I checked Molina and this is what I came up with: >> >> Moyoni. bullir las hormigas gusanos o cosa semejante. >> [...] >> Yomoni. bullir los gusanos, o piojos, pulgas, hormigas, o cosas >> semejantes, o dar mucha comezon los granos o la serna, o tener gran >> encendimiento de la carne los mozos o mozas luxuriosas. >> Yoyomiquiliztli. comezon. >> Yoyomoca. ni. tener comezon. >> Yoyomoctli. los riñones. >> >> I think the striking similarity between the first two entries strongly >> suggests not only a semantic but also a morphological/genetic relationship >> between the two verbs. >> >> So then I checked the Florentine Codex, and this is what I found in Bk. >> 10, >> Ch. 27, Par. 12 (p. 131 in Dibble and Anderson): >> >> *Testis Joiomoctli: * >> [...] >> it moves lasciviously moioma, >> both move lasciviously moiôioma, >> it stirs iomonj, >> it swoons with lasciviousness iôionmjquj, >> [...] >> >> Sahagún's juxtaposition of these verbs again suggests a close semantic, if >> not morphological, relationship. I suspect that might refer >> to >> making faces by rolling the eyes and twitching the face. The <ô> of >> Sahagún >> is likely to be o + glottal stop. What is interesting here is the fact >> that >> the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the first. >> So >> in both these verbs, and , we have a reduplicated >> /yo'/ (with glottal stop). The verbs with initial /yo/ are likely to be >> local or regional variants hailing from Mexico and/or Tetzcoco and >> environs. Cf. also the dynastic name Yoyontli. >> >> Tomás, your information on similar verbs in Chachahuantla and Cuetzalan, >> especially on ixmomoyoni (for i:xmo:moyo:ni, with the first o vowel long?) >> and ixmohmoyoni, is, I think, confirmation of this hypothesis. It would be >> interesting to know if the same compounds turn up elsewhere. Thanks so >> much >> for your very useful comments. Cenca' nimitztlazo'ca:mati! Übrigens, Dein >> Deutsch ist bewundernswert. Ich wünschte mir, meins wäre so gut! >> >> I am also very grateful to Jonathan Amith, John Sullivan and to the >> contributors to the totlahtol list for their thought-provoking comments >> and >> data. >> >> Best wishes, >> Gordon >> > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta4 at googlemail.com Sat Mar 24 19:21:05 2012 From: gwhitta4 at googlemail.com (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:21:05 +0100 Subject: i:xmoyo:n- vs. i:xyomo:n- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, This is very encouraging! Now we would appear to have the missing piece in the puzzle regarding moyo:ni and yomo:ni. The former is widespread, the latter restricted as a variant to the Valley of Mexico. The fact that the compound with i:x- is also attested for both, and in each case describing facial movement, underscores the likelihood that the two verbs are related, and that the forms with yom- are secondary. Thanks a lot for this very helpful material. Best wishes, Gordon Sent from my iPad On 23/03/2012, at 4:02 PM, Jonathan Amith wrote: > Oh, I forgot, > > i:xmoyo:nwetska to lightly smile, somethinig like 'dibujársele [a alguien] una sonrisa en la cara'. I imagine the i:xmoyo:n- refers to the very subtle facial movement. > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From yekeus at gmail.com Sat Mar 24 22:09:49 2012 From: yekeus at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Javier_Jim=E9nez?=) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:09:49 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 254, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Piahlih MALAKATXTIK: GIRADO(adjetivo) O MO MALAKATXOH: SE (EL) GIRO MEKATL MALAKATXIOHTIK: CUERDA GIRADA MALAKATXIOIH: GIRA(presente) I NIN KOAOITL MALAKATXIOIH: ESTA MADERA GIRA AGUJERO REDONDO: COIOKTLI IEHOALTIK MALAKATXOH: GIRO(ROTAR) MAHLINAH: GIRO(PROPOSITO DE MODFICAR EL OBJETO) IEHOAHLOH: GIRAR(ALREDEDOR) Onkan zeh kikpah El 23/03/2012 06:24, "Jacinto Acatecatl" escribió: > > MALAKACHTIK: AGUJERO REDONDO, > OMOMALACACHOH: SE DIO UN JIRO. > MEKATL MALAKACHITIK: CUERDA RETORCIDA > MALAKACHIHUI: QUE SE RETUERSE, O QUE ES PROBABLE QUE SUFRA ESE CAMBIO. > ININ KUAHUITL MALAKACHIHUI ESTE PALO SE PUEDE RETORCER. > > BUIEN DIA > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 18:11:28 2012 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:11:28 -0400 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa Message-ID: Listeros, I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting question. It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables (described in Canger 1980). Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a previous suffix -*čo/ča*- which she reconstructs as meaning "frecuentative". An example /kwekwečoa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). We also know that frequently Nahuatl / č / comes from proto-Uto-Aztecan *¢ before the high central vowel *ʉ. This makes it probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*¢ʉ/. This could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if the intransitive form was /*¢i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the transitive /*¢ʉ/ which would lead to -*choa *through **čiwa*. If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived from a previous /*malaka-¢ʉ-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the nominal form /*malaka-¢ʉ-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-¢ʉ-wi/. This suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly from *malacachoa *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. student Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Mar 26 20:50:41 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:50:41 -0600 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Piyali Magnus, But malacatl has no long vowels, and malacachtli has a long initial a (ma:lacachtli). John On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Listeros, > > I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being > derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive > denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does > seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the > relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting > question. > > It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way > that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - > probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- > between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. > > We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the > remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule > that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables > (described in Canger 1980). > > Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a > previous suffix -*čo/ča*- which she reconstructs as meaning > "frecuentative". An example /kwekwečoa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa > *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an > intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * > chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to > whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for > example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to > fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to > rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not > readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share > derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any > attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). > > We also know that frequently Nahuatl / č / comes from > proto-Uto-Aztecan *¢ before the high central vowel *ʉ. This makes it > probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*¢ʉ/. This > could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if > the intransitive form was /*¢i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually > -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the > transitive /*¢ʉ/ which would lead to -*choa *through **čiwa*. > > If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived > from a previous /*malaka-¢ʉ-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the > nominal form /*malaka-¢ʉ-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-¢ʉ-wi/. This > suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly > from *malacachoa > *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same > etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a > historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. > > > *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Mar 26 22:06:27 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:06:27 -0600 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quena Vic, Huan Delfina quicuamachilia quence macehualli tlen quipiya iixxayac chipactic. Vic, ¿queniuhqui ticcaqui nopa "a" tlen achtohui? ¿Huehueyac zo cuecuetztzin? ¿i:xma:lacachtic zo i:xmalacachtic? John On Mar 26, 2012, at 4:01 PM, De la Cruz wrote: > > > Ce tlamanextilli. > > Ixmalacachtic. Macehualli, tlapiyalli zo tecuani tlen quipiya iixayac yahualtic... > > > > Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' > > Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz > New-Phone: 5548657687 > > > > > From: idiez at me.com > > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:50:41 -0600 > > To: magnuspharao at gmail.com > > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa > > > > Piyali Magnus, > > But malacatl has no long vowels, and malacachtli has a long initial a (ma:lacachtli). > > John > > > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > > > Listeros, > > > > > > I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being > > > derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive > > > denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does > > > seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the > > > relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting > > > question. > > > > > > It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way > > > that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - > > > probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- > > > between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. > > > > > > We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the > > > remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule > > > that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables > > > (described in Canger 1980). > > > > > > Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a > > > previous suffix -*čo/ča*- which she reconstructs as meaning > > > "frecuentative". An example /kwekwečoa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa > > > *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an > > > intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * > > > chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to > > > whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for > > > example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to > > > fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to > > > rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not > > > readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share > > > derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any > > > attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). > > > > > > We also know that frequently Nahuatl / č / comes from > > > proto-Uto-Aztecan *¢ before the high central vowel *ʉ. This makes it > > > probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*¢ʉ/. This > > > could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if > > > the intransitive form was /*¢i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually > > > -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the > > > transitive /*¢ʉ/ which would lead to -*choa *through **čiwa*. > > > > > > If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived > > > from a previous /*malaka-¢ʉ-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the > > > nominal form /*malaka-¢ʉ-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-¢ʉ-wi/. This > > > suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly > > > from *malacachoa > > > *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same > > > etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a > > > historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. > > > > > > > > > *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm > > > > > > -- > > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > > PhD. student > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > Brown University > > > 128 Hope St. > > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 26 22:01:05 2012 From: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com (De la Cruz) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:01:05 +0000 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa In-Reply-To: <8819983C-73B9-4998-BADF-EC4B50A13F03@me.com> Message-ID: Ce tlamanextilli. Ixmalacachtic. Macehualli, tlapiyalli zo tecuani tlen quipiya iixayac yahualtic... Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz New-Phone: 5548657687 > From: idiez at me.com > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:50:41 -0600 > To: magnuspharao at gmail.com > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa > > Piyali Magnus, > But malacatl has no long vowels, and malacachtli has a long initial a (ma:lacachtli). > John > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > Listeros, > > > > I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being > > derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive > > denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does > > seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the > > relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting > > question. > > > > It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way > > that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - > > probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- > > between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. > > > > We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the > > remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule > > that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables > > (described in Canger 1980). > > > > Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a > > previous suffix -*čo/ča*- which she reconstructs as meaning > > "frecuentative". An example /kwekwečoa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa > > *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an > > intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * > > chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to > > whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for > > example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to > > fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to > > rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not > > readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share > > derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any > > attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). > > > > We also know that frequently Nahuatl / č / comes from > > proto-Uto-Aztecan *¢ before the high central vowel *ʉ. This makes it > > probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*¢ʉ/. This > > could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if > > the intransitive form was /*¢i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually > > -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the > > transitive /*¢ʉ/ which would lead to -*choa *through **čiwa*. > > > > If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived > > from a previous /*malaka-¢ʉ-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the > > nominal form /*malaka-¢ʉ-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-¢ʉ-wi/. This > > suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly > > from *malacachoa > > *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same > > etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a > > historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. > > > > > > *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. student > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Mar 27 00:18:15 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 18:18:15 -0600 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Axcanah tlan moixpa. John On Mar 26, 2012, at 5:32 PM, De la Cruz wrote: > > > > > Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' > > Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz > New-Phone: 5548657687 > > Caquizti: i:xma:lacachtic > > huan axcanah niccuamachilia tlan quipiya iixxayac chipactic. Quipiya iixxayac yahualtic. > > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa > From: idiez at me.com > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:06:27 -0600 > CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > To: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com > > Quena Vic, > Huan Delfina quicuamachilia quence macehualli tlen quipiya iixxayac chipactic. > Vic, ¿queniuhqui ticcaqui nopa "a" tlen achtohui? ¿Huehueyac zo cuecuetztzin? ¿i:xma:lacachtic zo i:xmalacachtic? > John > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 4:01 PM, De la Cruz wrote: > > > > Ce tlamanextilli. > > Ixmalacachtic. Macehualli, tlapiyalli zo tecuani tlen quipiya iixayac yahualtic... > > > > Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' > > Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz > New-Phone: 5548657687 > > > > > From: idiez at me.com > > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:50:41 -0600 > > To: magnuspharao at gmail.com > > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa > > > > Piyali Magnus, > > But malacatl has no long vowels, and malacachtli has a long initial a (ma:lacachtli). > > John > > > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > > > Listeros, > > > > > > I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being > > > derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive > > > denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does > > > seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the > > > relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting > > > question. > > > > > > It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way > > > that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - > > > probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- > > > between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. > > > > > > We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the > > > remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule > > > that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables > > > (described in Canger 1980). > > > > > > Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a > > > previous suffix -*čo/ča*- which she reconstructs as meaning > > > "frecuentative". An example /kwekwečoa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa > > > *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an > > > intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * > > > chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to > > > whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for > > > example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to > > > fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to > > > rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not > > > readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share > > > derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any > > > attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). > > > > > > We also know that frequently Nahuatl / č / comes from > > > proto-Uto-Aztecan *¢ before the high central vowel *ʉ. This makes it > > > probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*¢ʉ/. This > > > could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if > > > the intransitive form was /*¢i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually > > > -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the > > > transitive /*¢ʉ/ which would lead to -*choa *through **čiwa*. > > > > > > If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived > > > from a previous /*malaka-¢ʉ-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the > > > nominal form /*malaka-¢ʉ-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-¢ʉ-wi/. This > > > suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly > > > from *malacachoa > > > *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same > > > etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a > > > historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. > > > > > > > > > *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm > > > > > > -- > > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > > PhD. student > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > Brown University > > > 128 Hope St. > > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 26 23:32:05 2012 From: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com (De la Cruz) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 23:32:05 +0000 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz New-Phone: 5548657687 Caquizti: i:xma:lacachtic huan axcanah niccuamachilia tlan quipiya iixxayac chipactic. Quipiya iixxayac yahualtic. Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa From: idiez at me.com Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:06:27 -0600 CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com Quena Vic, Huan Delfina quicuamachilia quence macehualli tlen quipiya iixxayac chipactic. Vic, ¿queniuhqui ticcaqui nopa "a" tlen achtohui? ¿Huehueyac zo cuecuetztzin? ¿i:xma:lacachtic zo i:xmalacachtic?John On Mar 26, 2012, at 4:01 PM, De la Cruz wrote: Ce tlamanextilli. Ixmalacachtic. Macehualli, tlapiyalli zo tecuani tlen quipiya iixayac yahualtic... Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' Victoriano de la Cruz CruzNew-Phone: 5548657687 > From: idiez at me.com > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:50:41 -0600 > To: magnuspharao at gmail.com > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa > > Piyali Magnus, > But malacatl has no long vowels, and malacachtli has a long initial a (ma:lacachtli). > John > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > Listeros, > > > > I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being > > derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive > > denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does > > seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the > > relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting > > question. > > > > It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way > > that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - > > probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- > > between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. > > > > We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the > > remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule > > that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables > > (described in Canger 1980). > > > > Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a > > previous suffix -*čo/ča*- which she reconstructs as meaning > > "frecuentative". An example /kwekwečoa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa > > *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an > > intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * > > chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to > > whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for > > example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to > > fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to > > rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not > > readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share > > derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any > > attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). > > > > We also know that frequently Nahuatl / č / comes from > > proto-Uto-Aztecan *¢ before the high central vowel *ʉ. This makes it > > probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*¢ʉ/. This > > could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if > > the intransitive form was /*¢i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually > > -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the > > transitive /*¢ʉ/ which would lead to -*choa *through **čiwa*. > > > > If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived > > from a previous /*malaka-¢ʉ-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the > > nominal form /*malaka-¢ʉ-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-¢ʉ-wi/. This > > suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly > > from *malacachoa > > *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same > > etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a > > historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. > > > > > > *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. student > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Wed Mar 28 03:04:38 2012 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:04:38 -0600 Subject: Malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Friends, tocnihuan: My explanation comes, again, from words and forms used, spoken, in the region of Cuetzalan Puebla. Why not to take first the word "mallacat"? We can divide the word into mall and acat. Mall(a)(i) sounds for me as being related to the idea of rotating, spinning, twisting. Remember: malina, malinalli. Therefore we can think that mallacatl is no other thing but a stick that spins, that rotates. Just like spindle in English and Spindel in German. The translation of both words in Spanish ist not other but HUSO and this one is precisely the Spanish translation for malacat. For me, we can derivate from malacat the word malacachoa, where the t becomes ch. Also the word malacachihui can have the same origin. Malacachti (malacachtli) may mean “what has been rotated” e.g. a coil. Malacachtic: something whose form comes from being rotated, i.e. rounded. There is another word, the verbal form tayehualoya, vel. tlayahualoya. It is related with “describing circles” Therefrom we have: Tayehualtic, vel tlayohualtic: round Tayehual, vel. tlayahualli; a circle. Related to this, we have e.g. the word: Santotayehualtiliz(ti): to carry a Saint in Procession (to make circles with him in front of the church) Rememeber “Primeros Memoriales” ioa[n] tlayavaloloya, auh in tlalloca vevetqz teyacanaya valtenanamictivia ynic tlayavaloloya : quiqueq[ue]chpanotihvi y[n] inteteuh. My translation: and they walked describing circles. The old Tlaloc’s people met face to face every people while walking in circle. They were carrying their deities on their shoulders around their necks (while walking in circles). Niamechyoltlapalohua. Tomas Amaya El 22 de marzo de 2012 17:55, IDIEZ escribió: > Magnus, > So taking malacachihui/malacachoa, etc., as an example, what is the > verb of origin and how does it get to malacachtli? > John > > On Mar 22, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > My basic point that i keep trying to get across on the list is that it > is necessary to take into account the phonological and morphological > history of words when making etymologies. Very few of the people making > etymologies here use anything more than Nahuatl dictionaries to do so - > this is a shame because there is a lot of very good literature such as > Canger and Dakin's historical studies that show what kinds of derivations > are probable and possible and which aren't. This seems to me to be a clear > example of this where we know something about the history of affixes and > roots, which doesn't support the existence of a noun ma:lacachtli prior to > the verb ma:lacachoa/malacachihui, but rather derved from it. > > > > best, > > Magnus > > > > On 22 March 2012 18:04, Magnus Pharao Hansen > wrote: > > John, I know there are those two nouns, I was explaining that they both > historically come from the same verb form. I don't believe theycome from a > noun malacachtli rather the noun malacachtli would have to come form the > verbs historically. Malacachti would be the causative forms of the > intransitive one of those, and yes the malacachtic adjective form would be > derived from it - but they all come from original *ma:lacachiwa. I short I > believe you are deriving the wrong way by going from noun to verb - rather > inNahuatl it is almost always the case thatnouns are derived frm verbs and > in this case there is compelling indicia that this is the case. > > > > You cannot derive it with malacach + ihui that suffix doesn't exist > historicall but are two different suffices with different histories. The > -wa/-wi is an historical ending the i is part of the precceding suffix. > > > > best > > Magnus > > > > > > On 22 March 2012 17:25, IDIEZ wrote: > > Magnus, > > In fact there is a ma:lacachihui and ma:lacachoa:. And what Una > says makes sense. But you would have to start with an initial noun > ma:lacachtli. This would be turned into a verb in two ways. One would be > ma:lacachti (adding the verber "-ti") or ma:lacachtiya (adding both verbers > "-ti" and "-ya"). The preterite form of either one would be ma:lacachtic > and it would simultaneously work as an adjective/adverb. The other route > would be to add the verber "-ihui" to the base noun, producing > ma:lacachihui. The causative of this form would be ma:lacachoa: > (originally, ma:lacachihua, like Una says). However, the "ch" is part of > the original noun stem, not the beginning of "chihui>chihua". And I just > noticed today that the root noun has a long "a" (ma:lacachtli). "malacatl" > has all short vowels. > > John > > > > On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > > > Listeros, > > > > > > Again Canger's Five Studies leads us on the way. She shows that the -oa > > > ending comes from earlier -i:wa which means that there must have once > been > > > a verb pair called *malacachi:wa (transitive) and *malacachiwi > > > (intransitive), these could be derived from malaca + chiwa "make/do" > > > through a noun incorporation. Malacachtic is obviously derived from the > > > verb. > > > > > > best, > > > Magnus > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> From: IDIEZ > > >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> Cc: > > >> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600 > > >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa > > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > > >> How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, > if > > >> indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there? > > >> John > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > > PhD. student > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > Brown University > > > 128 Hope St. > > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. student > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > > > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. student > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Mar 1 02:51:31 2012 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:51:31 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli In-Reply-To: <5DAF4AC0-469C-4C71-9739-D45A7FC6D119@me.com> Message-ID: Muy apreciado John: It?s good to be critical and look hard at these things. There is, in fact, a simpler explanation for both tlacoyoctli and tlatectli, deriving the nouns from the preterite stems of the verbs. This is what Campbell and Karttunen (1989a: 240) call ?patientive state nouns?, as opposed to what they call ?resultant state nouns?,which are based on the passive stem (which they prefer to call ?nonactive?), as described in my last post. The results of both processes have similar or identical meanings, so it?s difficult to choose between the two forms. The ?resultant state? explanations would go like this: Tlacoyoctli: tla + (coyoqui -i) + tli tlatectli: tla + (tequi - i) + tli (Although I?m still not sure about this unattested verb coyoqui, where the expected form would be coyo:ni.) If you (with friar William of Ockham) prefer the simpler explanations of these words, these analyses would also work. Andrews (2003: 364, 365) prefers to think of a ?nonactive suffix o:?, which would simplify the ?(lo: - o:) part of my previous analysis to just ?o:.? I prefer to write out the long form, based on the assumtion that o: is derived from lo:, just to make things a bit more explicit. The more complicated analysis (?patientive state nouns?) given by Campbell and Karttunen seem to be inspired by Carochi?s explanation of what he calls ?los verbales en tli, y li? (2001: 182-187 [lbook 3,chapter 3]). (Both Joe and Fran are listeros; perhaps they can shed some light on this.) Carochi includes tlatectli in his examples, then explains: ?Formanse de la voz passiua del presente de indicatiuo desta manera que si el passiuo es regular, idest, si acaba in lo, se muda la o, vltima en li, verbi gracia. chi:hua hazer, forma el passiuo chihualo, buelta la o, en li, y antepuesto el tla, haze tlachi:hualli, cosa hecha, obra, criatura. Pero si el verbo no formare regularmente el passiuo, no acabar? en lo, aunque si, en o, de ordinario, y en tal caso la o, se mudar? en tli; como tequi cortar, tiene el passiuo, teco, boluiendo su o, en tli, con el tla, haze el verbal tlatectli, cosa cortada. [ ]? Carochi says tlatectli is formed on the passive stem, which makes the analysis I gave in my last post my favorite hypothesis, although the alternative mentioned above can?t be ruled out, as far as I can see at this point. Campbell and Karttunen give both derivations for tlatectli: ?resultant state? (based on the passive) and ?patientive state? (based on the preterite) (1989a: 239, 240). As for evidence of the intervening steps between tequi and tlatectli, there are attestations of teco: in the Carochi quote given above, in Sahag?n (see Wimmer, undated) and at the core of tlateco:ni, ?cutting instrument? (Karttunen, 1985: 295; Molina, 1571b: 134v; Wimmer, undated). Molina?s (1571b: 24r) listing of coyoctic, ?agujero, o cosa agujerada? is also relevant to the discussion, as has been pointed out in this thread. I hope this makes things a bit more clear. These sorts of changes are what makes Nahuatl morphological analysis a challenge; without a clear understanding of the underlying morphophonological processes it can be really hard to see what?s going on. Saludos cordiales, David ******************************** Sources not cited in my last post: ANDREWS, J. Richard 2003a Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. 2003b Workbook for introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. WIMMER, Alexis undated Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/; access: 29 February 2012). De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 15:35 Para: David Wright CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli David, I've never been really happy with the way people explain things having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for me to understand. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: Muy estimado John: I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c shift I would be interested. The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb coyoqui, would work like this: tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive tlateco:, "something is cut"): tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. CAROCHI, Horacio 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los ?ngeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. KARTTUNEN, Frances 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. MOLINA, Alonso de 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. Saludos desde Guanajuato, David ******************************************************* -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de IDIEZ Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli Piyali notequixpoyohuan, You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the following form: 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 1 04:39:33 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:39:33 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli In-Reply-To: <000001ccf756$356d5eb0$a0481c10$@net.mx> Message-ID: Nopilhuampoh David, Perhaps instead of coyoqui, the alternate form would have been coyoca, given that the reduplicative of coyoni is cocoyoca. But it still doesn?t resolve the problem of how you get from coyonia?s preterite root, coyonih, to tlacoyontli/tlacoyoctli. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 8:51 PM, David Wright wrote: > Muy apreciado John: > > It?s good to be critical and look hard at these things. There is, in fact, a simpler explanation for both tlacoyoctli and tlatectli, deriving the nouns from the preterite stems of the verbs. This is what Campbell and Karttunen (1989a: 240) call ?patientive state nouns?, as opposed to what they call ?resultant state nouns?,which are based on the passive stem (which they prefer to call ?nonactive?), as described in my last post. The results of both processes have similar or identical meanings, so it?s difficult to choose between the two forms. > > The ?resultant state? explanations would go like this: > > Tlacoyoctli: tla + (coyoqui -i) + tli > > tlatectli: tla + (tequi - i) + tli > > (Although I?m still not sure about this unattested verb coyoqui, where the expected form would be coyo:ni.) > > If you (with friar William of Ockham) prefer the simpler explanations of these words, these analyses would also work. > > Andrews (2003: 364, 365) prefers to think of a ?nonactive suffix o:?, which would simplify the ?(lo: - o:) part of my previous analysis to just ?o:.? I prefer to write out the long form, based on the assumtion that o: is derived from lo:, just to make things a bit more explicit. > > The more complicated analysis (?patientive state nouns?) given by Campbell and Karttunen seem to be inspired by Carochi?s explanation of what he calls ?los verbales en tli, y li? (2001: 182-187 [lbook 3,chapter 3]). (Both Joe and Fran are listeros; perhaps they can shed some light on this.) Carochi includes tlatectli in his examples, then explains: > > ?Formanse de la voz passiua del presente de indicatiuo desta manera que si el passiuo es regular, idest, si acaba in lo, se muda la o, vltima en li, verbi gracia. chi:hua hazer, forma el passiuo chihualo, buelta la o, en li, y antepuesto el tla, haze tlachi:hualli, cosa hecha, obra, criatura. Pero si el verbo no formare regularmente el passiuo, no acabar? en lo, aunque si, en o, de ordinario, y en tal caso la o, se mudar? en tli; como tequi cortar, tiene el passiuo, teco, boluiendo su o, en tli, con el tla, haze el verbal tlatectli, cosa cortada. [?]? > > Carochi says tlatectli is formed on the passive stem, which makes the analysis I gave in my last post my favorite hypothesis, although the alternative mentioned above can?t be ruled out, as far as I can see at this point. Campbell and Karttunen give both derivations for tlatectli: ?resultant state? (based on the passive) and ?patientive state? (based on the preterite) (1989a: 239, 240). > > As for evidence of the intervening steps between tequi and tlatectli, there are attestations of teco: in the Carochi quote given above, in Sahag?n (see Wimmer, undated) and at the core of tlateco:ni, ?cutting instrument? (Karttunen, 1985: 295; Molina, 1571b: 134v; Wimmer, undated). Molina?s (1571b: 24r) listing of coyoctic, ?agujero, o cosa agujerada? is also relevant to the discussion, as has been pointed out in this thread. > > I hope this makes things a bit more clear. These sorts of changes are what makes Nahuatl morphological analysis a challenge; without a clear understanding of the underlying morphophonological processes it can be really hard to see what?s going on. > > Saludos cordiales, > > David > > ******************************** > Sources not cited in my last post: > > ANDREWS, J. Richard > 2003a Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. > > 2003b Workbook for introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. > > WIMMER, Alexis > > undated Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/; access: 29 February 2012). > > De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] > Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 15:35 > Para: David Wright > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli > > David, > I've never been really happy with the way people explain things having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for me to understand. > John > > On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: > > Muy estimado John: > > I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with > what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c > change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root > verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within > the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in > Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or > coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c > shift I would be interested. > > The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb > coyoqui, would work like this: > > tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example > tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive > tlateco:, "something is cut"): > > tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, > chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) > > CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, > ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, > ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > > CAROCHI, Horacio > 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs > (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los ?ngeles, Stanford > University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. > > KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. > > MOLINA, Alonso de > 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > > Saludos desde Guanajuato, > > David > > ******************************************************* > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de IDIEZ > Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With > a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very > easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, > "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, > coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or > tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or > the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to > "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take > place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the > reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. > This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to > something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We > used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, > the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, > that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the > intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about > working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is > that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly > present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined > forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the > following form: > 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. > 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown > (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) > 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied > or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or > fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, > cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). > But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the > formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Thu Mar 1 17:26:58 2012 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 11:26:58 -0600 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli In-Reply-To: <180AA956-32B8-400A-8B9E-29E4DFB95195@me.com> Message-ID: Estimado John: Neither coyoca nor coyonia: will take you to tlacoyoctli, as far as I can see. That?s why I suggested the unattested transitive verb coyoqui, as I can?t come up with a better explanation. I?m aware that this is a last-ditch attempt to solve the problem you posted, but it seems to work within the norms of (early colonial central Mexican) Nahuatl, either by way of the ?resultant state? or the ?patientive state? hypotheses. Un abrazo, David De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 22:40 Para: David Wright CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli Nopilhuampoh David, Perhaps instead of coyoqui, the alternate form would have been coyoca, given that the reduplicative of coyoni is cocoyoca. But it still doesn?t resolve the problem of how you get from coyonia?s preterite root, coyonih, to tlacoyontli/tlacoyoctli. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 8:51 PM, David Wright wrote: Muy apreciado John: It?s good to be critical and look hard at these things. There is, in fact, a simpler explanation for both tlacoyoctli and tlatectli, deriving the nouns from the preterite stems of the verbs. This is what Campbell and Karttunen (1989a: 240) call ?patientive state nouns?, as opposed to what they call ?resultant state nouns?,which are based on the passive stem (which they prefer to call ?nonactive?), as described in my last post. The results of both processes have similar or identical meanings, so it?s difficult to choose between the two forms. The ?resultant state? explanations would go like this: Tlacoyoctli: tla + (coyoqui -i) + tli tlatectli: tla + (tequi - i) + tli (Although I?m still not sure about this unattested verb coyoqui, where the expected form would be coyo:ni.) If you (with friar William of Ockham) prefer the simpler explanations of these words, these analyses would also work. Andrews (2003: 364, 365) prefers to think of a ?nonactive suffix o:?, which would simplify the ?(lo: - o:) part of my previous analysis to just ?o:.? I prefer to write out the long form, based on the assumtion that o: is derived from lo:, just to make things a bit more explicit. The more complicated analysis (?patientive state nouns?) given by Campbell and Karttunen seem to be inspired by Carochi?s explanation of what he calls ?los verbales en tli, y li? (2001: 182-187 [lbook 3,chapter 3]). (Both Joe and Fran are listeros; perhaps they can shed some light on this.) Carochi includes tlatectli in his examples, then explains: ?Formanse de la voz passiua del presente de indicatiuo desta manera que si el passiuo es regular, idest, si acaba in lo, se muda la o, vltima en li, verbi gracia. chi:hua hazer, forma el passiuo chihualo, buelta la o, en li, y antepuesto el tla, haze tlachi:hualli, cosa hecha, obra, criatura. Pero si el verbo no formare regularmente el passiuo, no acabar? en lo, aunque si, en o, de ordinario, y en tal caso la o, se mudar? en tli; como tequi cortar, tiene el passiuo, teco, boluiendo su o, en tli, con el tla, haze el verbal tlatectli, cosa cortada. [ ]? Carochi says tlatectli is formed on the passive stem, which makes the analysis I gave in my last post my favorite hypothesis, although the alternative mentioned above can?t be ruled out, as far as I can see at this point. Campbell and Karttunen give both derivations for tlatectli: ?resultant state? (based on the passive) and ?patientive state? (based on the preterite) (1989a: 239, 240). As for evidence of the intervening steps between tequi and tlatectli, there are attestations of teco: in the Carochi quote given above, in Sahag?n (see Wimmer, undated) and at the core of tlateco:ni, ?cutting instrument? (Karttunen, 1985: 295; Molina, 1571b: 134v; Wimmer, undated). Molina?s (1571b: 24r) listing of coyoctic, ?agujero, o cosa agujerada? is also relevant to the discussion, as has been pointed out in this thread. I hope this makes things a bit more clear. These sorts of changes are what makes Nahuatl morphological analysis a challenge; without a clear understanding of the underlying morphophonological processes it can be really hard to see what?s going on. Saludos cordiales, David ******************************** Sources not cited in my last post: ANDREWS, J. Richard 2003a Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. 2003b Workbook for introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. WIMMER, Alexis undated Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/; access: 29 February 2012). De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 15:35 Para: David Wright CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli David, I've never been really happy with the way people explain things having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for me to understand. John On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: Muy estimado John: I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c shift I would be interested. The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb coyoqui, would work like this: tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive tlateco:, "something is cut"): tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. CAROCHI, Horacio 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los ?ngeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. KARTTUNEN, Frances 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. MOLINA, Alonso de 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio de Espinosa. Saludos desde Guanajuato, David ******************************************************* -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de IDIEZ Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli Piyali notequixpoyohuan, You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. With a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb to something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the following form: 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for the formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 1 17:39:10 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 12:39:10 -0500 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ In-Reply-To: <000001ccf756$356d5eb0$a0481c10$@net.mx> Message-ID: Nahuatlatos estimados, "Old Andrews," (_Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_, University of Texas Press, Austin, 1975, page 245) seems to have something to say about all this: 1. "Intransitive thematic verbs of the -ni kind...[our coyoni]...may have root-based patientive nouns formed on a special stem consisting of the root plus -c, -x, -z, or -ch, the choice depending on certain factors no longer evident in the surface grammar. The long vowel of the root is made short." An example that appears to relate to this case is tlapactli 'a thing that has become broken' from tlapani. (Note bien que que esta palabra no es tlapa:ctli 'cosa lavada') 2. "Intransitive thematic verbsd of the -hua kind may have root-based patientive nouns formed on a special stem created by adding -c to the root. The long vowel of the root is made short before the -c." The example is pitzactli 'a thing that has become narrowed or thin' from 'pitza:hua Michael Quoting David Wright : > Muy apreciado John: > > > > It?s good to be critical and look hard at these things. There is, in fact, a > simpler explanation for both tlacoyoctli and tlatectli, deriving the nouns > from the preterite stems of the verbs. This is what Campbell and Karttunen > (1989a: 240) call ?patientive state nouns?, as opposed to what they call > ?resultant state nouns?,which are based on the passive stem (which they > prefer to call ?nonactive?), as described in my last post. The results of > both processes have similar or identical meanings, so it?s difficult to > choose between the two forms. > > > > The ?resultant state? explanations would go like this: > > > > Tlacoyoctli: tla + (coyoqui -i) + tli > > tlatectli: tla + (tequi - i) + tli > > > > (Although I?m still not sure about this unattested verb coyoqui, where the > expected form would be coyo:ni.) > > > > If you (with friar William of Ockham) prefer the simpler explanations of > these words, these analyses would also work. > > > > Andrews (2003: 364, 365) prefers to think of a ?nonactive suffix o:?, which > would simplify the ?(lo: - o:) part of my previous analysis to just ?o:.? I > prefer to write out the long form, based on the assumtion that o: is derived > from lo:, just to make things a bit more explicit. > > > > The more complicated analysis (?patientive state nouns?) given by Campbell > and Karttunen seem to be inspired by Carochi?s explanation of what he calls > ?los verbales en tli, y li? (2001: 182-187 [lbook 3,chapter 3]). (Both Joe > and Fran are listeros; perhaps they can shed some light on this.) Carochi > includes tlatectli in his examples, then explains: > > > > ?Formanse de la voz passiua del presente de indicatiuo desta manera que si > el passiuo es regular, idest, si acaba in lo, se muda la o, vltima en li, > verbi gracia. chi:hua hazer, forma el passiuo chihualo, buelta la o, en li, > y antepuesto el tla, haze tlachi:hualli, cosa hecha, obra, criatura. Pero si > el verbo no formare regularmente el passiuo, no acabar? en lo, aunque si, en > o, de ordinario, y en tal caso la o, se mudar? en tli; como tequi cortar, > tiene el passiuo, teco, boluiendo su o, en tli, con el tla, haze el verbal > tlatectli, cosa cortada. [ ]? > > > > Carochi says tlatectli is formed on the passive stem, which makes the > analysis I gave in my last post my favorite hypothesis, although the > alternative mentioned above can?t be ruled out, as far as I can see at this > point. Campbell and Karttunen give both derivations for tlatectli: > ?resultant state? (based on the passive) and ?patientive state? (based on > the preterite) (1989a: 239, 240). > > > > As for evidence of the intervening steps between tequi and tlatectli, there > are attestations of teco: in the Carochi quote given above, in Sahag?n (see > Wimmer, undated) and at the core of tlateco:ni, ?cutting instrument? > (Karttunen, 1985: 295; Molina, 1571b: 134v; Wimmer, undated). Molina?s > (1571b: 24r) listing of coyoctic, ?agujero, o cosa agujerada? is also > relevant to the discussion, as has been pointed out in this thread. > > > > I hope this makes things a bit more clear. These sorts of changes are what > makes Nahuatl morphological analysis a challenge; without a clear > understanding of the underlying morphophonological processes it can be > really hard to see what?s going on. > > > > Saludos cordiales, > > > > David > > > > ******************************** > > Sources not cited in my last post: > > > > ANDREWS, J. Richard > > 2003a Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University > of Oklahoma Press. > > 2003b Workbook for introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, > Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. > > > > WIMMER, Alexis > > undated Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique > (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/; access: 29 February 2012). > > > > De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] > Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 15:35 > Para: David Wright > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli > > > > David, > > I've never been really happy with the way people explain things > having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I > think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get > through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. > And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there > are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, > then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And > when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has > also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the > final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at > the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the > source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that > any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a > linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of > Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl > adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing > repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, > the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for > me to understand. > > John > > > > On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: > > > > Muy estimado John: > > I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with > what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c > change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root > verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within > the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in > Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or > coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c > shift I would be interested. > > The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb > coyoqui, would work like this: > > tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example > tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive > tlateco:, "something is cut"): > > tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli > > (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, > chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) > > CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, > ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, > ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. > > CAROCHI, Horacio > 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs > (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los ?ngeles, Stanford > University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. > > KARTTUNEN, Frances > 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. > > MOLINA, Alonso de > 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio > de Espinosa. > > Saludos desde Guanajuato, > > David > > ******************************************************* > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de IDIEZ > Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. > With > a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very > easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, > "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, > coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or > tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or > the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to > "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take > place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the > reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. > This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb > to > something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We > used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, > the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, > that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the > intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about > working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is > that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly > present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined > forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the > following form: > 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. > 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown > (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) > 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied > or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or > fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, > cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). > But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for > the > formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 1 17:51:51 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 12:51:51 -0500 Subject: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ In-Reply-To: <20120301123910.mr07opogu8wc448w@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On the same page, he also adds: "Nouns meaning "a thing of such-and-such a color" are created by this means from incorporated-noun-as-adverb compounds formed on the matric e:hua, 'to arise': (ti:c-e-c)-tli = a chalk-colored thing [ < (ti:c-e:-hua) < (ti:za)tl + e:hua)]" (Note occepa that la voyelle shortens.) Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Nahuatlatos estimados, > > "Old Andrews," (_Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_, University of > Texas Press, Austin, 1975, page 245) seems to have something to say > about all this: > > 1. "Intransitive thematic verbs of the -ni kind...[our coyoni]...may > have root-based patientive nouns formed on a special stem consisting > of the root plus -c, -x, -z, or -ch, the choice depending on certain > factors no longer evident in the surface grammar. The long vowel of > the root is made short." > > An example that appears to relate to this case is tlapactli 'a thing > that has become broken' from tlapani. > > (Note bien que que esta palabra no es tlapa:ctli 'cosa lavada') > > > 2. "Intransitive thematic verbsd of the -hua kind may have root-based > patientive nouns formed on a special stem created by adding -c to the > root. The long vowel of the root is made short before the -c." > > The example is pitzactli 'a thing that has become narrowed or thin' > from 'pitza:hua > > > Michael > > > > > Quoting David Wright : > >> Muy apreciado John: >> >> >> >> It?s good to be critical and look hard at these things. There is, in fact, a >> simpler explanation for both tlacoyoctli and tlatectli, deriving the nouns >> from the preterite stems of the verbs. This is what Campbell and Karttunen >> (1989a: 240) call ?patientive state nouns?, as opposed to what they call >> ?resultant state nouns?,which are based on the passive stem (which they >> prefer to call ?nonactive?), as described in my last post. The results of >> both processes have similar or identical meanings, so it?s difficult to >> choose between the two forms. >> >> >> >> The ?resultant state? explanations would go like this: >> >> >> >> Tlacoyoctli: tla + (coyoqui -i) + tli >> >> tlatectli: tla + (tequi - i) + tli >> >> >> >> (Although I?m still not sure about this unattested verb coyoqui, where the >> expected form would be coyo:ni.) >> >> >> >> If you (with friar William of Ockham) prefer the simpler explanations of >> these words, these analyses would also work. >> >> >> >> Andrews (2003: 364, 365) prefers to think of a ?nonactive suffix o:?, which >> would simplify the ?(lo: - o:) part of my previous analysis to just ?o:.? I >> prefer to write out the long form, based on the assumtion that o: is derived >> from lo:, just to make things a bit more explicit. >> >> >> >> The more complicated analysis (?patientive state nouns?) given by Campbell >> and Karttunen seem to be inspired by Carochi?s explanation of what he calls >> ?los verbales en tli, y li? (2001: 182-187 [lbook 3,chapter 3]). (Both Joe >> and Fran are listeros; perhaps they can shed some light on this.) Carochi >> includes tlatectli in his examples, then explains: >> >> >> >> ?Formanse de la voz passiua del presente de indicatiuo desta manera que si >> el passiuo es regular, idest, si acaba in lo, se muda la o, vltima en li, >> verbi gracia. chi:hua hazer, forma el passiuo chihualo, buelta la o, en li, >> y antepuesto el tla, haze tlachi:hualli, cosa hecha, obra, criatura. Pero si >> el verbo no formare regularmente el passiuo, no acabar? en lo, aunque si, en >> o, de ordinario, y en tal caso la o, se mudar? en tli; como tequi cortar, >> tiene el passiuo, teco, boluiendo su o, en tli, con el tla, haze el verbal >> tlatectli, cosa cortada. [ ]? >> >> >> >> Carochi says tlatectli is formed on the passive stem, which makes the >> analysis I gave in my last post my favorite hypothesis, although the >> alternative mentioned above can?t be ruled out, as far as I can see at this >> point. Campbell and Karttunen give both derivations for tlatectli: >> ?resultant state? (based on the passive) and ?patientive state? (based on >> the preterite) (1989a: 239, 240). >> >> >> >> As for evidence of the intervening steps between tequi and tlatectli, there >> are attestations of teco: in the Carochi quote given above, in Sahag?n (see >> Wimmer, undated) and at the core of tlateco:ni, ?cutting instrument? >> (Karttunen, 1985: 295; Molina, 1571b: 134v; Wimmer, undated). Molina?s >> (1571b: 24r) listing of coyoctic, ?agujero, o cosa agujerada? is also >> relevant to the discussion, as has been pointed out in this thread. >> >> >> >> I hope this makes things a bit more clear. These sorts of changes are what >> makes Nahuatl morphological analysis a challenge; without a clear >> understanding of the underlying morphophonological processes it can be >> really hard to see what?s going on. >> >> >> >> Saludos cordiales, >> >> >> >> David >> >> >> >> ******************************** >> >> Sources not cited in my last post: >> >> >> >> ANDREWS, J. Richard >> >> 2003a Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University >> of Oklahoma Press. >> >> 2003b Workbook for introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, >> Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. >> >> >> >> WIMMER, Alexis >> >> undated Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique >> (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/; access: 29 February 2012). >> >> >> >> De: IDIEZ [mailto:idiez at me.com] >> Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 15:35 >> Para: David Wright >> CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli >> >> >> >> David, >> >> I've never been really happy with the way people explain things >> having to do with the passive and impersonal constructions in Nahuatl. I >> think it's the only part of Andrews that I haven't even tried to get >> through. I've seen the explanation you cite for tequi>teco>tlatectli before. >> And perhaps it really does make sense, but it just seems to me that there >> are too many shady things going on. First, the "i" of the verb drops off, >> then the passive "-lo" is added, but wait.... then the "l" drops out. And >> when we finally get the passive teco, "it is cut," the specific object has >> also disappeared. Then we continue down the road toward the noun. Next the >> final "o" of teco drops off and the object "tla-" miraculously reappears at >> the same time that the absolutive suffix "-tli" is added. And in between the >> source verb tequi and the resulting tlatectli, there's no hard evidence that >> any of these intervening processes ever really took place. Since I'm not a >> linguist I fear I may be like the lay person standing in front a piece of >> Modern art and saying they can't see anything. I understand that Nahuatl >> adds and drops affixes to create and refine meaning, many times passing >> repeatedly through noun, verb and relational forms. But most of the time, >> the processes are pretty transparent. This stuff, though, is really hard for >> me to understand. >> >> John >> >> >> >> On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:23 PM, David Wright wrote: >> >> >> >> Muy estimado John: >> >> I was just looking at your first post in this thread, and had come up with >> what for me is the most likely hypothesis, its major problem being the n > c >> change, which I tentatively explained as an unattested variant of the root >> verb (coyoqui instead of coyoni), because that way the analysis works within >> the established rules. I don't know enough about diachronic changes in >> Nahuatl to evaluate if coyoqui could be an older form related to coyoni (or >> coyo:ni). If you have any more information on (or examples of) the n > c >> shift I would be interested. >> >> The analysis of tlacoyoctli, based on the hypothetical transitive verb >> coyoqui, would work like this: >> >> tla + (coyoqui -i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli >> >> The passive suffix lo: disappears like this in other cases, for example >> tlatectli, "something cut" (from tequi, "cortar", by way of passive >> tlateco:, "something is cut"): >> >> tla + (tequi - i) + (lo: - l) - o: + tli >> >> (see Campbell/Karttunen, 1989a: 238, 239; Carochi, 2001: 182-185 [book 3, >> chapter 3]; Karttunen, 1983: 216, 232, 295; Molina, 1571b: 105r, 134v.) >> >> CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances >> 1989a Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: text and exercises, >> ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. >> 1989b Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 2: vocabulary and key, >> ed. xerogr?fica, Missoula, The University of Montana. >> >> CAROCHI, Horacio >> 2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs >> (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los ?ngeles, Stanford >> University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. >> >> KARTTUNEN, Frances >> 1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press. >> >> MOLINA, Alonso de >> 1571a Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio >> de Espinosa. >> 1571b Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana, M?xico, Casa de Antonio >> de Espinosa. >> >> Saludos desde Guanajuato, >> >> David >> >> ******************************************************* >> >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] >> En nombre de IDIEZ >> Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de febrero de 2012 12:42 >> Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Asunto: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli >> >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> You know, this problem might be more extensive than I thought. >> With >> a verb like coyoni>coyonia, the preterite roots, coyon/coyonih, are very >> easy to distinguish. But what about all those verbs like cotoni/cotona, >> "for s.t. to snap or bust" / "to bust or snap s.t.", whose preterite roots, >> coton/coton, are indistinguishable. So how can we know if tlacotontli or >> tlacotoctli, "s.t. snapped or busted," is based on the transitive cotona, or >> the intransitive cotoni. The fact that the "n" of the root verb can go to >> "c" suggests that the transformation from transitive verb to noun might take >> place using the instransitive form as the base. That "c" appears in the >> reduplicated form cotoni>cocotoca, etc. >> This possibility, that the transformation of a transitive verb >> to >> something else might be based on the intransitive form, has a parallel. We >> used to say, for example, that when cahua becomes the applicative cahuilia, >> the final "a" of cahua changes to "i". Now we know, or at least I think, >> that the applicative transformation of a transitive verb is base on the >> intransitive form, even if that form is not attested. The good thing about >> working simultaneously with different variants (across space and time) is >> that forms that are only implicitly present in some variants are explicitly >> present in others. Or sometimes you just have to look for them in combined >> forms. Cahui, for example, is used in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl in the >> following form: >> 1. Attested transitive verb: mahcahua, to release or throw s.t. >> 2. Unattested intransitive form: mahcahui, to be released or thrown >> (unattested in the sense that it does not appear in a stand-alone form) >> 3. -mahcauhyan (with a possessor) is the slit between things that are tied >> or stacked together, like bamboo that is tied together to make a wall or >> fence. Literally, the fence's place of release, from maitl>mah-, >> cahui>cauh-, -yan (time of place of an action). >> But I would think that just the fact that cahui is the base for >> the >> formation of cahuilia, is evidence enough of its existence. >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 19:28:13 2012 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:28:13 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 251, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Listeros You should all take a look at Una Canger's Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in -Oa, because in this book she goes into quite some detail about the histories of the different verbal endings such as -ca,-ni, -wa, -wi, -tza. It is clear from her account that it is not the case that we can simply postulate historical verbs with the ending -qui or -ca to account for the -ctli ending because the different endings create different kinds of verbs. What is the grain of this is that we have a morphonphonetic alternation between /k/ and /w/ in certain words, I am quite convinced that this is a significant historical phenomenon that can be addressed only by a detailed study of the Nahuan and Uto-Aztecan historical phonemics. I did some research on this in 2009 and am in the process of writing up the results. What got me interested is that in many dialects the alternation is not twofold between /k/ and /w/ but threefodl between /k/, /w/ and /n/. Where n is the reflex in word final position after long vowel, k is the reflex syllable finally before *t and w is the reflex between vowels. This actually gets to a proposal studied by R. Joe Campbell in IJAL in 1976, and also proposed by Benjamin Lee Whorf in his Milpa Alta sketch in which he suggests that Proto-Nahuatl had a phoneme /?w/ with a nasal reflex in Tepoztlan Nahuatl. Dakin and Ryesky notes is also the case for all the dialects of Morelos, and which is in fact also the case for many Zongolica dialects, at least historically.Then my hunch, which I haven't yet fully made into an argument is that the k/w/n alternation can be reconstructed back to the same phoneme that gives an alternatione between g/n/m/w/mw in general Uto-Aztecan (sometimes reconstructed as a nasal final feature, sometimes as a lenis nasal, and sometimes as an ?w). I am still working on this, but I'll be presenting some of my data at the Northeastern conference in New Haven in May. best, Magnus On 1 March 2012 13:00, wrote: > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ (Michael McCafferty) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Cc: > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 12:51:51 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ > On the same page, he also adds: > > "Nouns meaning "a thing of such-and-such a color" are created by this > means from incorporated-noun-as-adverb compounds formed on the matric > e:hua, 'to arise': > > (ti:c-e-c)-tli = a chalk-colored thing [ < (ti:c-e:-hua) < (ti:za)tl + > e:hua)]" > > > (Note occepa that la voyelle shortens.) > > > Michael > > > -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. student Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 1 20:00:45 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:00:45 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 251, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > Listeros > > You should all take a look at Una Canger's Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in > -Oa, because in this book she goes into quite some detail about the > histories of the different verbal endings such as -ca,-ni, -wa, -wi, -tza. > It is clear from her account that it is not the case that we can simply > postulate historical verbs with the ending -qui or -ca to account for the > -ctli ending because the different endings create different kinds of verbs. > > What is the grain of this is that we have a morphonphonetic alternation > between /k/ and /w/ in certain words, I am quite convinced that this is a > significant historical phenomenon that can be addressed only by a detailed > study of the Nahuan and Uto-Aztecan historical phonemics. I did some > research on this in 2009 and am in the process of writing up the results. I've been thinking exactly along these lines, Magnus. These are good points. Michael > > What got me interested is that in many dialects the alternation is not > twofold between /k/ and /w/ but threefodl between /k/, /w/ and /n/. Where n > is the reflex in word final position after long vowel, k is the reflex > syllable finally before *t and w is the reflex between vowels. This > actually gets to a proposal studied by R. Joe Campbell in IJAL in 1976, and > also proposed by Benjamin Lee Whorf in his Milpa Alta sketch in which he > suggests that Proto-Nahuatl had a phoneme /?w/ with a nasal reflex in > Tepoztlan Nahuatl. Dakin and Ryesky notes is also the case for all the > dialects of Morelos, and which is in fact also the case for many Zongolica > dialects, at least historically.Then my hunch, which I haven't yet fully > made into an argument is that the k/w/n alternation can be reconstructed > back to the same phoneme that gives an alternatione between g/n/m/w/mw in > general Uto-Aztecan (sometimes reconstructed as a nasal final feature, > sometimes as a lenis nasal, and sometimes as an ?w). > > I am still working on this, but I'll be presenting some of my data at the > Northeastern conference in New Haven in May. > > best, > Magnus > > > On 1 March 2012 13:00, wrote: > >> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ (Michael McCafferty) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Michael McCafferty >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Cc: >> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 12:51:51 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlacoyoctli, tlacotoctli /and/ /coyoctli/ >> On the same page, he also adds: >> >> "Nouns meaning "a thing of such-and-such a color" are created by this >> means from incorporated-noun-as-adverb compounds formed on the matric >> e:hua, 'to arise': >> >> (ti:c-e-c)-tli = a chalk-colored thing [ < (ti:c-e:-hua) < (ti:za)tl + >> e:hua)]" >> >> >> (Note occepa that la voyelle shortens.) >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Mar 5 11:35:36 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 05:35:36 -0600 Subject: Pre-Yale conference intensive Nahuatl course Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, We are looking into the possibility of offering a 16 hour intensive introduction to Classical and Modern Nahuatl from Monday April 30 to Thursday May 3. I would teach two hours per day of Classical and a native speaker would teach another two hours per day of Modern Huastecan Nahuatl. The course would be held either in New York or New Haven. The Yale Nahuatl conference and workshop is May 4 and 5. There would be a charge involved to cover airfare, hotel and food for the instructors. If you are interested in participating, please contact me at idiez at me.com. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mbassett at gsu.edu Mon Mar 5 15:54:42 2012 From: mbassett at gsu.edu (Molly Harbour Bassett) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:54:42 +0000 Subject: toncohualonotia Message-ID: Hi all, In section 26 (p. 19) of Tezozomoc's _Cronica Mexicayotl_, Adrian Leon translates toncohualonotia as "que venia yaciendo en un cofre." As best I can tell, toncohualonotia has to do with money or buying something (cohua; tlacocohualoni), but I must be overlooking something. I've pasted the context below. Any thoughts? Thanks, Molly nahuintin inquihualmamaque in tetzahuitl Huitzilopochtli toncohualonotia in teomamaque ce tlacatl itoca Iztacmixcohuatzin, auh inic ome itoca Apanecatl, inic ey itoca Tetzcacohuacatl, inic nahui cihuatl itoca Chimalma yehuantinin imotenehua teomamaque ------------------------------------------------ Molly Bassett Assistant Professor Director of Graduate Studies Department of Religious Studies Georgia State University _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From stefanyteufel at yahoo.de Mon Mar 5 16:56:50 2012 From: stefanyteufel at yahoo.de (Stefanie Teufel) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:56:50 +0000 Subject: WG: toncohualonotia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Molly, the BNP document that Adrian Leon used has a lot of errors. Please have a look at the?Manuscript that has been found in England and has been published in the Codex Chimapahin?by?Anderson and Schroeder. There you will find two words: topco hualnotia "he was lying in a coffre". Best, Stefanie? ----- Weitergeleitete Message ----- Von: Molly Harbour Bassett An: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" Gesendet: 16:54 Montag, 5.M?rz 2012 Betreff: [Nahuat-l] toncohualonotia Hi all, In section 26 (p. 19) of Tezozomoc's _Cronica Mexicayotl_, Adrian Leon translates toncohualonotia as "que venia yaciendo en un cofre." As best I can tell, toncohualonotia has to do with money or buying something (cohua; tlacocohualoni), but I must be overlooking something. I've pasted the context below. Any thoughts? Thanks, Molly nahuintin inquihualmamaque in tetzahuitl Huitzilopochtli toncohualonotia in teomamaque ce tlacatl itoca Iztacmixcohuatzin, auh inic ome itoca Apanecatl, inic ey itoca Tetzcacohuacatl, inic nahui cihuatl itoca Chimalma yehuantinin imotenehua teomamaque ------------------------------------------------ Molly Bassett Assistant Professor Director of Graduate Studies Department of Religious Studies Georgia State University _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Mar 7 12:54:48 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 06:54:48 -0600 Subject: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning "something that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge provokes thought. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta at gwdg.de Wed Mar 7 09:16:10 2012 From: gwhitta at gwdg.de (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:16:10 +0100 Subject: yomoni, ixyoyomoni; atzcalli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nahua(tl at lists.famsi.org)tlaca, I've been trying to find information on a verb and its derivatives that relates to a glyph in the Nahuatl writing system of the mid-16th century. The verb is (a spelling for yomo:ni/yo'mo:ni/yo:mo:ni), approximately 'twitch, itch', among other things. Related to this is 'grimace, make faces', composed of i:x- 'face' and what is presumably yo'yomo:ni or yo'yo:mo:ni. I would be very grateful if someone could let me know if there is any dialect (or textual) evidence for the shape of the syllables and in these two related verbs. In particular, is there any direct evidence for a short or long vowel, or vowel plus glottal stop/fricative ('/h), in the first syllable of ? Has anyone come across the compound in a modern dialect? Given the meaning of the compound, the first syllable of is presumably yo'/yoh. Term 2: Another elusive form is the Florentine Codex's (a kind of shell). I presume a compound of a:- 'water', and a verbal element with subsequent syncope of *tzical-. Has anyone seen or heard evidence for the length of the initial vowel? Thanks again for any tips. Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Prof. Dr. Gordon Whittaker Direktor Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Mar 7 18:18:00 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:18:00 -0600 Subject: More things to consider Message-ID: Consider these examples, in which final morphemes are deleted in the process of converting a verb to a noun, and how parallel options are used to provide shades of meaning: 1. cuelpachoa, nic, "to fold s.t." > tlacuelpachtli, "a cuff" vs tlacuelpacholli, "folded clothing." 2. payania, nic, "to crumble s.t." > cintli tlapayantli, "corn pieces" vs "cintli tlapayanilli", "crumbled corn." 3. tentia, nic, "to sharpen s.t." > tlatentli, "cochiyoh tlatentli", "a sharp knife," vs. "cochiyoh tlatentilli", "a sharpened knife." 4. pahtia, nic. "to fertilize or apply herbicide to a plant." > "toctli tlapahtli", "a fertilized corn plant," "toctli tlapahtilli," "a corn plant that has been fertilized." On the one hand we have objects that have undergone a completed action, and on the other hand we have words that emphasize more the process which the objects have undergone. Then there that little detail of the morpheme deletion. The reason I'm starting to notice these, and many, many more examples, is that we are working a lot on words in our dictionary that begin with "tla-". John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Mar 7 19:23:41 2012 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:23:41 -0500 Subject: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli Message-ID: Piyali Piljohntzi, This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky thing... a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. examples: maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door Joe *tla7 *** alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. . b.11 f.6 p.55| cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. ll tla7>. 55m-3| callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. ll>. 55m-10| camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. xx>. 55m-20| cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. . 55m-10| cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). . 55m-10| centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . 71m1-1202| centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. xx>. 55m-18| chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de leche. x>. 71m2-8| conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. . 55m-10| cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de alguna cosa. . 55m-15| cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa?o para cubrir la cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa?o para cubrir la cabeza. . 55m-15| cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. . b.2 f.13 p.208| cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. . 55m-19| huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. ll>. 55m-1| icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . 71m2-21| [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. . b.10 f.1 p.9| icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; piuela de halcon. ll +z>x +a>i>. 55m-16| ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . 71m1-1202| ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. . 55m-10| ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. . b.2 f.8 p.143| ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. . 55m-2| ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. . 55m-15| ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. . b.1 f.3 p.58| ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna cosa. . 71m2-21| ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. . 71m2-21| ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa presente. . 55m-15| ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- 21| ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. xx +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. xx>. 55m-10| maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- 13| mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. . 55m-3| mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. . b.2 f.3 p.71| mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- 102| mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. . 55m-3| mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. . b.11 f.26 p.269| mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. . b.12 f.4 p.63| mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- 19| mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. . 71m1-1202| mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . b.8 f.5 p.81| mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. . 71m1-151| nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina de edificio. . 55m-9| nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 p.123| nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. . 55m-17| nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. . b.11 f.18 p.182| nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. . b.10 f.4 p.77| nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o rayz para purgar. . 55m- 17| noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. . 71m1-191| ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de caminos. . 55m-6| ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de caminos (idem). . 55m-6| ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. . b.6 f.19 p.247| ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. . b.11 f.21 p.218| pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. . 55m-15| pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. . 55m-19| paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande y chico). . 55m-13| patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . 55m-16| pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . b.9 f.7 p.96| pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. . b.9 f.7 p.94| quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . . b.2 f.4 p.84| quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. . 55m-7| quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o fin de algo. . 71m2-23| tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . 55m-8| telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque?a; altozano; o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . 71m1-021| tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa?o^ya quitado o cortado del mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado o cortado del mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado. . 55m-15| tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . b.10 f.5 p.91| tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. . 55m-9| tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . . b.11 f.27 p.279| tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. . 55m-19| tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. tzy>. 55m-15| tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. tz>. 71m2-23| til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; cuesta peque?a. i>. 71m2-23| tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. . b.11 f.3 p.27| tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . b.11 f.5 p.39| tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . . b.2 f.10 p.164| tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. . b.11 f.3 p.26| tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- 18| tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. . 71m1-151| tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. b.10 f.10 p.167| tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- 191| tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 p.99| tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. . 55m-15| tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. . b.11 f.25 p.261| tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. . 55m-001| tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- 6| tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- 17| xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo delo entero y principal. . 55m-15| xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque?a. . 55m-15| xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . . b.11 f.6 p.55| yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . 71m1-172| yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 p.64| morpheme count 332 Quoting IDIEZ : > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa > echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of > pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In > Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of > the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." > Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" > that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? > In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning "something > that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with > it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same > way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. > And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the > variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation > between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel > length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge > provokes thought. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Mar 7 21:28:38 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:28:38 -0600 Subject: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli In-Reply-To: <20120307142341.rtvu3r380844wgog@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Piljoetzin, So in other words, in a case like "tlacuelpachtli", "cuff", we are dealing with: 1. tla7 2. cuelpachtli, the (compound) root of "cuelpachihui", "cuelpachoa" and "cuelpachtic (by way of the unattested 'cuelpachti(ya).'" Right? John On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Campbell, R. Joe wrote: > Piyali Piljohntzi, > > This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky thing... > a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive > suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the > meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers > to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses > "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. > > examples: > > maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve > > (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) > > tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing > cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door > > Joe > > > *tla7 *** > alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de > cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde > solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. telli +ltl>ll tla7>. 55m-3| > callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > ll>. 55m-10| > camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o > cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 > +spanish>. 55m-13| > caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. +xy>xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| > caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; > crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-20| > cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a > grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. ma:tlatl-co2 tla7>. 55m-10| > cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; > grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). > . 55m-10| > centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o > aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; > senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| > centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | > centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). > simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . > 71m1-1202| > centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-18| > chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de > leche. tla7 +xy>x>. 71m2-8| > conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > . 55m-10| > cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de > alguna cosa. . 55m-15| > cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa?o para cubrir la > cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa?o para cubrir la cabeza. > . 55m-15| > cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle > down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| > cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.2 f.13 p.208| > cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de > nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| > cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. cuitlatl-pan-ca:tl-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. l tla7 +ly>ll>. 55m-1| > icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o > sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . > 71m2-21| > [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. tahtli tla7 +kin>. b.10 f.1 p.9| > icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; > piuela de halcon. ll +z>x > +a>i>. 55m-16| > ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . > 71m1-1202| > ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de > alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. cua:itl tla7>. 55m-10| > ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. cua:itl tla7>. b.2 f.8 p.143| > ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera > cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la > puerta. . 55m-2| > ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. i:xi:ptlatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.1 f.3 p.58| > ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna > cosa. . 71m2-21| > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. i:xtli-pan-yo:tl1 +del.n tla7>. 71m2-21| > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa > presente. . 55m-15| > ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; > grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- > 21| > ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que > nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. i:xtli-yoa:-l in chi:chi:3-hua1-l1-a:tl1-yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx > +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| > ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. > xx>. 55m-10| > maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- > 13| > mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. > . 55m-3| > mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. tla7>. b.2 f.3 p.71| > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi > is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| > mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) > | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa > assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; > escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- > 102| > mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. dupl-ma:tlatl-yahualli tla7>. 55m-3| > mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its > steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| > mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. > . b.11 f.26 p.269| > mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. ma:tlatl-yoa:-l-co2 tla7>. b.12 f.4 p.63| > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after > tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- > 19| > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-1202| > mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . > b.8 f.5 p.81| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish>. 55m-13| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish>. 71m1-151| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los > manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish > +prob>. 71m2-10| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| > molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor > para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. hua:ztli tla7>. 71m1-151| > nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina > de edificio. . 55m-9| > nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 > p.123| > nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. tla7>. 55m-17| > nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. to:n-tl tla7>. b.11 f.18 p.182| > nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. dupl-to:n-plur02 tla7 plur10b +del.n>. b.10 f.4 p.77| > nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| > nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. +e>i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > rayz para purgar. . 55m- > 17| > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. ni1 poss-nelhuatl tla7>. 71m1-191| > ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > caminos. . 55m-6| > ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > caminos (idem). . 55m-6| > ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. delya-l1 tla7>. b.6 f.19 p.247| > ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. > . b.11 f.21 p.218| > pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado > cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. ++cahuallo tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; > cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande > y chico). . 55m-13| > patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . > 55m-16| > pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . > b.9 f.7 p.96| > pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. pechtli-yoa:-l tla7>. b.9 f.7 p.94| > quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . tla7>. b.2 f.4 p.84| > quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de > almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para > emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-7| > quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o > fin de algo. . 71m2-23| > tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de > arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . > 55m-8| > telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque?a; altozano; > o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . > 71m1-021| > tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa?o^ya quitado o > cortado del mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado o cortado del > mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado. ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . > b.10 f.5 p.91| > tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; > trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; > franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. tla7>. 55m-9| > tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . l tla7>. b.11 f.27 p.279| > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing > error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. > . 55m-19| > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; > postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. l tla7 +tzy>tzy>. 55m-15| > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. tepotztli-yo:tl1 tla7 +tzy>tz>. 71m2-23| > til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. > b.10 f.7 p.124b| > tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| > tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; > cuesta peque?a. i>. 71m2-23| > tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; > trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| > tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| > tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.27| > tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . > b.11 f.5 p.39| > tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy > feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| > tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather > down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| > tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . tla7>. b.2 f.10 p.164| > tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. yo:tl1-yo:tl1 tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.26| > tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. > chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- > 18| > tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-151| > tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. > b.10 f.10 p.167| > tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| > tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- > 191| > tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 > p.99| > tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. tla7>. 55m-15| > tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. > . b.11 f.25 p.261| > tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; > garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| > tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o > cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o > afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-001| > tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; > fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- > 6| > tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que > queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- > 17| > xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. telli-e:1-prt4 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. xa:lli-poss-telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo > delo entero y principal. . > 55m-15| > xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque?a. xelli-v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7>. 55m-15| > xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . +need:bird>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . > 71m1-172| > yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 > p.64| > > morpheme count 332 > > > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa >> echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of >> pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In >> Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of >> the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." >> Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" >> that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? >> In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning "something >> that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with >> it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same >> way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. >> And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the >> variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation >> between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel >> length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge >> provokes thought. >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Mar 7 21:52:37 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:52:37 -0600 Subject: tla7 Message-ID: So tlacoyontli and tlacoyoctli both come from tla7 + coyontli/coyoctli. And now Mr. Campbell, as your councel I would advise you to answer the following question very carefully. Does coyontli come from coyoni, or does coyoni come from coyontli. In other words, Tlen achtohui quichiuhqui totiotzin? Piyo zo tecciztli? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Wed Mar 7 21:37:44 2012 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:37:44 +0100 Subject: 3 words from the Nican Mopohua Message-ID: Hola, In analyzing the Huei Tlamahuizoltica's front page, and the first paragraph of the Nican Mopohua, I remain puzzled by the construction of the following three words. TLAMAHUIZOLTICA Comes from the verb MAHUIZOA, converted into a patientive noun = TLAMAHUIZOLLI but.... what is the function of "TICA"? I can't conclude it being an instrumental verbal noun ("with the help of a miracle") or is it? ITOCAYOCAN TEPEYACAC I think TOCAYO(H) is a noun (with adjectival sense) derived from TOCAITL, but what is "CAN" doing at the end of the word? TOCIHUAPILLATOCATZIN Apparently meaning "our queen", but literally I conclude it is "our-woman-noble(pricess)-name". Why "LA" after PIL? and why TOCA? Thanks for any help. Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 8 01:40:54 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:40:54 -0600 Subject: 3 words from the Nican Mopohua In-Reply-To: <4F57D528.7000309@losrancheros.org> Message-ID: Piyali Susana, 1. tlamahuizol-li, ?miracle? + ti (ligature) + -ca (instrumental relational word, ?with, by means of?). You could also say ?ica tlamahuizolli.? 2. i- (third person sing. possessor) + toca-itl, ?name? + -yoh, ?s.t. covered with, full of or having s.t.? + -can (the short version is ?place of?). So ?place by (having) the name of Tepeyacac.? 3. to- (first person plural possessor) + cihuapil-li (noblewoman) tlahtohca- (combining form of tlahtoani; and when you combine the final l of the root of cihuapilli with the initial tl of tlahtohca-, you get ll) + -tzin (singular reverential ending). The final -tli has been dropped because the word is possessed. John On Mar 7, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Susana Moraleda wrote: > Hola, > In analyzing the Huei Tlamahuizoltica's front page, and the first paragraph of the Nican Mopohua, I remain puzzled by the construction of the following three words. > > TLAMAHUIZOLTICA > Comes from the verb MAHUIZOA, converted into a patientive noun = TLAMAHUIZOLLI > but.... what is the function of "TICA"? I can't conclude it being an instrumental verbal noun ("with the help of a miracle") or is it? > > ITOCAYOCAN TEPEYACAC > I think TOCAYO(H) is a noun (with adjectival sense) derived from TOCAITL, but what is "CAN" doing at the end of the word? > > TOCIHUAPILLATOCATZIN > Apparently meaning "our queen", but literally I conclude it is "our-woman-noble(pricess)-name". Why "LA" after PIL? and why TOCA? > > Thanks for any help. > > Susana > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 8 02:56:55 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:56:55 -0500 Subject: typo Message-ID: tlalticpac not *tlaticpac. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 8 02:53:16 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:53:16 -0500 Subject: 3 words from the Nican Mopohua In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting IDIEZ : > Piyali Susana, > 1. tlamahuizol-li, ?miracle? + ti (ligature) + -ca (instrumental > relational word, ?with, by means of?). You could also say ?ica > tlamahuizolli.? Susana, These are nice explanations by John. Let me add that this is a very productive grammatical form having to do with the -ca instrumental and the way it attaches to nouns: xochitica, tetica, quetzaltica,... ad infinitum. You don't see the ligature with no-, mo-, i-, to-, amo-. There you just get noca, moca, ica, toca, amoca. Nor do you see the ligature used with nouns beginning with the indefinite pronouns te- and tla-. Note that you also get the ligature -ti- with other postpositions: tlaticpac, caltitech, tepetitlan, etc. > 2. i- (third person sing. possessor) + toca-itl, ?name? + -yoh, ?s.t. > covered with, full of or having s.t.? + -can (the short version is > ?place of?). So ?place by (having) the name of Tepeyacac.? Tepeyacac tepetl 'mountain' + yacatl + -co 'place of' yacatl means 'nose' but it also means 'ridge'. It might be good to add that the instrumental -ca, with -ti- of course, is added to the word for 'day', ilhuitl, to mean 'during', for example, cemilhuitica during the day yeilhuitica for three days What's also cool is that when you reduplicate the number, say, yeiyeilhuitica, that means 'every three days'. Michael > 3. to- (first person plural possessor) + cihuapil-li (noblewoman) > tlahtohca- (combining form of tlahtoani; and when you combine the > final l of the root of cihuapilli with the initial tl of tlahtohca-, > you get ll) + -tzin (singular reverential ending). The final -tli has > been dropped because the word is possessed. > John > > On Mar 7, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Susana Moraleda wrote: > >> Hola, >> In analyzing the Huei Tlamahuizoltica's front page, and the first >> paragraph of the Nican Mopohua, I remain puzzled by the construction >> of the following three words. >> >> TLAMAHUIZOLTICA >> Comes from the verb MAHUIZOA, converted into a patientive noun = >> TLAMAHUIZOLLI >> but.... what is the function of "TICA"? I can't conclude it being an >> instrumental verbal noun ("with the help of a miracle") or is it? >> >> ITOCAYOCAN TEPEYACAC >> I think TOCAYO(H) is a noun (with adjectival sense) derived from >> TOCAITL, but what is "CAN" doing at the end of the word? >> >> TOCIHUAPILLATOCATZIN >> Apparently meaning "our queen", but literally I conclude it is >> "our-woman-noble(pricess)-name". Why "LA" after PIL? and why TOCA? >> >> Thanks for any help. >> >> Susana >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 8 19:27:05 2012 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 14:27:05 -0500 Subject: yomoni, ixyoyomoni; atzcalli In-Reply-To: <6570f50d19838e580bb52bc3ba30c5cd.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Quoting Gordon Whittaker : > Dear Nahua(tl at lists.famsi.org)tlaca, > > > > Term 2: Another elusive form is the Florentine Codex's (a kind > of shell). I presume a compound of a:- 'water', and a verbal element with > subsequent syncope of *tzical-. Has anyone seen or heard evidence for the > length of the initial vowel? Thanks again for any tips. Gordon, Could this be a:tl + tzictli + ca:lli? -> a:tzicca:lli -> a:tzica:lli A shell is such a nice ca:lli. Michael > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Prof. Dr. Gordon Whittaker > Direktor > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Mar 12 02:44:41 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:44:41 -0600 Subject: tlacala:niliztli, tlacala:naliztli Message-ID: Piyali listeros, Assuming that our base forms are cala:ni, "for s.t. to make a clanging sound," and cala:nia:, " to clang s.t. against s.t. else," how come there are two -liztli forms in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl: tlacala:naliztli (I don't know if the second "a" is long or short) and tlacala:niliztli? Does this have anything to do with: cala:ni + -a:ltia: (causative suffix) = cahua:na:ltia:? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor of Nahua Language and Culture Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rbenavides05 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 20:35:43 2012 From: rbenavides05 at hotmail.com (Rafael Benavides) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:35:43 -0500 Subject: Anacahuita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good day listeros, I have a simple question. Here on the Rio Grande border in Texas there is a native tree that grows in extreme South Texas corresponding with the Tamaulipan ecosystem. In English it's called the Mexican Olive, but is often referred to as Anacahuita by people in the area. I've also heard it been called Anacahuite and Anacahua. My grandfather used to call it Nacagua/Nacahua. It seems every community along the border has they're own preference. The tree produces a marvelous white flower and, once pollinated, a small fruit that is used to suppress coughs in people. The tree's branches are also boiled to make a tea. I've read that the name comes from the Nahuatl anacuahuitl, from the words amatl and cuahuitl, as it is said Mesoamerican peoples used this tree to make amate, or paper. I'm not sure about that since I've heard that the Amate tree is what they used. Amate in Nahuatl would correspond with amacuahuitl/anacuahuitl, but these are two different trees. Is anyone familiar with this tree and it's name? Here is a picture of a mature tree's trunk and bark: http://valleygreenspace.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/old-age-woodpecker-hom-in-ancient-anacahuite.jpg Here is a picture of the tree's flower, fruite and leaves: http://magicedspotrerochico.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/036.jpg Thank you in advance! Sincerely,Rafael Benavides > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 252, Issue 4 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:28:57 -0600 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. More things to consider (IDIEZ) > 2. Re: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli (Campbell, R. Joe) > 3. Re: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli (IDIEZ) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:18:00 -0600 > From: IDIEZ > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] More things to consider > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > Consider these examples, in which final morphemes are deleted in the process of converting a verb to a noun, and how parallel options are used to provide shades of meaning: > 1. cuelpachoa, nic, "to fold s.t." > tlacuelpachtli, "a cuff" vs tlacuelpacholli, "folded clothing." > 2. payania, nic, "to crumble s.t." > cintli tlapayantli, "corn pieces" vs "cintli tlapayanilli", "crumbled corn." > 3. tentia, nic, "to sharpen s.t." > tlatentli, "cochiyoh tlatentli", "a sharp knife," vs. "cochiyoh tlatentilli", "a sharpened knife." > 4. pahtia, nic. "to fertilize or apply herbicide to a plant." > "toctli tlapahtli", "a fertilized corn plant," "toctli tlapahtilli," "a corn plant that has been fertilized." > On the one hand we have objects that have undergone a completed action, and on the other hand we have words that emphasize more the process which the objects have undergone. Then there that little detail of the morpheme deletion. > The reason I'm starting to notice these, and many, many more examples, is that we are working a lot on words in our dictionary that begin with "tla-". > John > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:23:41 -0500 > From: "Campbell, R. Joe" > To: IDIEZ > Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli > Message-ID: <20120307142341.rtvu3r380844wgog at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Piyali Piljohntzi, > > This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky thing... > a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive > suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the > meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers > to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses > "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. > > examples: > > maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve > > (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) > > tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing > cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door > > Joe > > > *tla7 *** > alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de > cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde > solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. telli +ltl>ll tla7>. 55m-3| > callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > ll>. 55m-10| > camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o > cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 > +spanish>. 55m-13| > caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. +xy>xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| > caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; > crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-20| > cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a > grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. ma:tlatl-co2 tla7>. 55m-10| > cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; > grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). > . 55m-10| > centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o > aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; > senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| > centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | > centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). > simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . > 71m1-1202| > centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-18| > chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de > leche. tla7 +xy>x>. 71m2-8| > conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > . 55m-10| > cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de > alguna cosa. . 55m-15| > cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa?o para cubrir la > cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa?o para cubrir la cabeza. > . 55m-15| > cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle > down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| > cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.2 f.13 p.208| > cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de > nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| > cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. cuitlatl-pan-ca:tl-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. l tla7 +ly>ll>. 55m-1| > icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o > sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . > 71m2-21| > [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. tahtli tla7 +kin>. b.10 f.1 p.9| > icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; > piuela de halcon. ll +z>x > +a>i>. 55m-16| > ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . > 71m1-1202| > ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de > alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. cua:itl tla7>. 55m-10| > ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. cua:itl tla7>. b.2 f.8 p.143| > ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera > cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la > puerta. . 55m-2| > ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. i:xi:ptlatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.1 f.3 p.58| > ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna > cosa. . 71m2-21| > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. i:xtli-pan-yo:tl1 +del.n tla7>. 71m2-21| > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa > presente. . 55m-15| > ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; > grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- > 21| > ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que > nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. i:xtli-yoa:-l in chi:chi:3-hua1-l1-a:tl1-yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx > +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| > ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. > xx>. 55m-10| > maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- > 13| > mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. > . 55m-3| > mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. tla7>. b.2 f.3 p.71| > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi > is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| > mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) > | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa > assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; > escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- > 102| > mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. dupl-ma:tlatl-yahualli tla7>. 55m-3| > mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its > steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| > mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. > . b.11 f.26 p.269| > mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. ma:tlatl-yoa:-l-co2 tla7>. b.12 f.4 p.63| > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after > tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- > 19| > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-1202| > mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . > b.8 f.5 p.81| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish>. 55m-13| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish>. 71m1-151| > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los > manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish > +prob>. 71m2-10| > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 > +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| > molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor > para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. hua:ztli tla7>. 71m1-151| > nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina > de edificio. . 55m-9| > nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 > p.123| > nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. tla7>. 55m-17| > nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. to:n-tl tla7>. b.11 f.18 p.182| > nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. dupl-to:n-plur02 tla7 plur10b +del.n>. b.10 f.4 p.77| > nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| > nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. +e>i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > rayz para purgar. . 55m- > 17| > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. ni1 poss-nelhuatl tla7>. 71m1-191| > ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > caminos. . 55m-6| > ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > caminos (idem). . 55m-6| > ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. delya-l1 tla7>. b.6 f.19 p.247| > ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. > . b.11 f.21 p.218| > pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado > cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. ++cahuallo tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; > cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande > y chico). . 55m-13| > patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . > 55m-16| > pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . > b.9 f.7 p.96| > pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. pechtli-yoa:-l tla7>. b.9 f.7 p.94| > quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . tla7>. b.2 f.4 p.84| > quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de > almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para > emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-7| > quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o > fin de algo. . 71m2-23| > tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de > arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . > 55m-8| > telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque?a; altozano; > o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . > 71m1-021| > tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa?o^ya quitado o > cortado del mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado o cortado del > mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado. ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . > b.10 f.5 p.91| > tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; > trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; > franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. tla7>. 55m-9| > tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . l tla7>. b.11 f.27 p.279| > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing > error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. > . 55m-19| > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; > postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. l tla7 +tzy>tzy>. 55m-15| > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. tepotztli-yo:tl1 tla7 +tzy>tz>. 71m2-23| > til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. > b.10 f.7 p.124b| > tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| > tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; > cuesta peque?a. i>. 71m2-23| > tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; > trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| > tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| > tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.27| > tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . > b.11 f.5 p.39| > tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy > feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| > tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather > down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| > tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . tla7>. b.2 f.10 p.164| > tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. yo:tl1-yo:tl1 tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.26| > tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. > chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- > 18| > tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-151| > tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. > b.10 f.10 p.167| > tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| > tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- > 191| > tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 > p.99| > tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. tla7>. 55m-15| > tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. > . b.11 f.25 p.261| > tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; > garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| > tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o > cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o > afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-001| > tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; > fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- > 6| > tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que > queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- > 17| > xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. telli-e:1-prt4 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. xa:lli-poss-telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo > delo entero y principal. . > 55m-15| > xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque?a. xelli-v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7>. 55m-15| > xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . +need:bird>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . > 71m1-172| > yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 > p.64| > > morpheme count 332 > > > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > > In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa > > echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of > > pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In > > Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of > > the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." > > Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" > > that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? > > In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning "something > > that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with > > it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same > > way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. > > And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the > > variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation > > between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel > > length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge > > provokes thought. > > John > > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > > idiez at me.com > > www.macehualli.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:28:38 -0600 > From: IDIEZ > To: "Campbell, R. Joe" > Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Piljoetzin, > So in other words, in a case like "tlacuelpachtli", "cuff", we are dealing with: > 1. tla7 > 2. cuelpachtli, the (compound) root of "cuelpachihui", "cuelpachoa" and "cuelpachtic (by way of the unattested 'cuelpachti(ya).'" > Right? > John > > On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Campbell, R. Joe wrote: > > > Piyali Piljohntzi, > > > > This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky thing... > > a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive > > suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the > > meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers > > to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses > > "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. > > > > examples: > > > > maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve > > > > (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) > > > > tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing > > cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door > > > > Joe > > > > > > *tla7 *** > > alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de > > cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- > > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde > > solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. > telli +ltl>ll tla7>. 55m-3| > > callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > ll>. 55m-10| > > camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o > > cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. > +xy>xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| > > caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; > > crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. > tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-20| > > cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a > > grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. > ma:tlatl-co2 tla7>. 55m-10| > > cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; > > grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). > > . 55m-10| > > centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o > > aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; > > senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| > > centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | > > centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). > > simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . > > 71m1-1202| > > centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. > yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-18| > > chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de > > leche. > tla7 +xy>x>. 71m2-8| > > conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > . 55m-10| > > cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de > > alguna cosa. . 55m-15| > > cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa?o para cubrir la > > cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa?o para cubrir la cabeza. > > . 55m-15| > > cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle > > down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| > > cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.2 f.13 p.208| > > cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de > > nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| > > cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. > cuitlatl-pan-ca:tl-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. > l tla7 +ly>ll>. 55m-1| > > icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o > > sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . > > 71m2-21| > > [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. > tahtli tla7 +kin>. b.10 f.1 p.9| > > icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; > > piuela de halcon. ll +z>x > > +a>i>. 55m-16| > > ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . > > 71m1-1202| > > ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de > > alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. > cua:itl tla7>. 55m-10| > > ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. > cua:itl tla7>. b.2 f.8 p.143| > > ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera > > cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la > > puerta. . 55m-2| > > ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. > i:xi:ptlatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.1 f.3 p.58| > > ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna > > cosa. . 71m2-21| > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. > i:xtli-pan-yo:tl1 +del.n tla7>. 71m2-21| > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa > > presente. . 55m-15| > > ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; > > grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- > > 21| > > ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que > > nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. > i:xtli-yoa:-l in chi:chi:3-hua1-l1-a:tl1-yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx > > +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| > > ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. > > xx>. 55m-10| > > maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- > > 13| > > mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. > > . 55m-3| > > mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. > tla7>. b.2 f.3 p.71| > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi > > is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| > > mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) > > | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa > > assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; > > escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- > > 102| > > mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. > dupl-ma:tlatl-yahualli tla7>. 55m-3| > > mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its > > steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| > > mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. > > . b.11 f.26 p.269| > > mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. > ma:tlatl-yoa:-l-co2 tla7>. b.12 f.4 p.63| > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after > > tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- > > 19| > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. > yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-1202| > > mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . > > b.8 f.5 p.81| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los > > manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish > > +prob>. 71m2-10| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| > > molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor > > para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. > hua:ztli tla7>. 71m1-151| > > nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina > > de edificio. . 55m-9| > > nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 > > p.123| > > nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. > tla7>. 55m-17| > > nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. > to:n-tl tla7>. b.11 f.18 p.182| > > nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. > dupl-to:n-plur02 tla7 plur10b +del.n>. b.10 f.4 p.77| > > nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. > tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| > > nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. > +e>i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > rayz para purgar. . 55m- > > 17| > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. > ni1 poss-nelhuatl tla7>. 71m1-191| > > ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > caminos. . 55m-6| > > ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > caminos (idem). . 55m-6| > > ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. > delya-l1 tla7>. b.6 f.19 p.247| > > ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. > > . b.11 f.21 p.218| > > pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado > > cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. > ++cahuallo tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; > > cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande > > y chico). . 55m-13| > > patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . > > 55m-16| > > pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . > > b.9 f.7 p.96| > > pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. > pechtli-yoa:-l tla7>. b.9 f.7 p.94| > > quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . > tla7>. b.2 f.4 p.84| > > quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de > > almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para > > emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-7| > > quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o > > fin de algo. . 71m2-23| > > tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de > > arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . > > 55m-8| > > telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque?a; altozano; > > o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . > > 71m1-021| > > tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa?o^ya quitado o > > cortado del mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado o cortado del > > mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado. > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . > > b.10 f.5 p.91| > > tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; > > trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; > > franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. > tla7>. 55m-9| > > tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . > l tla7>. b.11 f.27 p.279| > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing > > error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. > > . 55m-19| > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; > > postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. > l tla7 +tzy>tzy>. 55m-15| > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. > tepotztli-yo:tl1 tla7 +tzy>tz>. 71m2-23| > > til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. > > b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| > > tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; > > cuesta peque?a. i>. 71m2-23| > > tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; > > trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| > > tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.27| > > tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . > > b.11 f.5 p.39| > > tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy > > feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| > > tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather > > down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| > > tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . > tla7>. b.2 f.10 p.164| > > tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. > yo:tl1-yo:tl1 tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.26| > > tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. > > chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- > > 18| > > tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-151| > > tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. > > b.10 f.10 p.167| > > tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. > telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| > > tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- > > 191| > > tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 > > p.99| > > tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. > tla7>. 55m-15| > > tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. > > . b.11 f.25 p.261| > > tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; > > garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| > > tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o > > cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o > > afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-001| > > tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; > > fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- > > 6| > > tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que > > queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- > > 17| > > xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. > telli-e:1-prt4 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. > xa:lli-poss-telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo > > delo entero y principal. . > > 55m-15| > > xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque?a. > xelli-v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7>. 55m-15| > > xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . > +need:bird>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . > > 71m1-172| > > yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 > > p.64| > > > > morpheme count 332 > > > > > > > > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > > > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > >> In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa > >> echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of > >> pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In > >> Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of > >> the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." > >> Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" > >> that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? > >> In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning "something > >> that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with > >> it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same > >> way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. > >> And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the > >> variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation > >> between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel > >> length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge > >> provokes thought. > >> John > >> > >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. > >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > >> idiez at me.com > >> www.macehualli.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 252, Issue 4 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 14:33:44 2012 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:33:44 -0400 Subject: Anacahuita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Rafael, I asked a friend, an expert botanist, the question. From Andrew McDonald, "This is a Cordia of the Boraginaceae, known in some portions of Mexico and S Texas as anacahuita. The species might be boissieri. This response comes from the banks of the Mekong River, in the heart of Phnom Penh, at an internet cafe." You can see if C. boissieri matches this. If not I can ask a Borag expert at the Smithsonian. best, jonathan On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Rafael Benavides wrote: > > Good day listeros, > I have a simple question. Here on the Rio Grande border in Texas there is > a native tree that grows in extreme South Texas corresponding with the > Tamaulipan ecosystem. In English it's called the Mexican Olive, but is > often referred to as Anacahuita by people in the area. I've also heard it > been called Anacahuite and Anacahua. My grandfather used to call it > Nacagua/Nacahua. It seems every community along the border has they're own > preference. > The tree produces a marvelous white flower and, once pollinated, a small > fruit that is used to suppress coughs in people. The tree's branches are > also boiled to make a tea. > I've read that the name comes from the Nahuatl anacuahuitl, from the words > amatl and cuahuitl, as it is said Mesoamerican peoples used this tree to > make amate, or paper. I'm not sure about that since I've heard that the > Amate tree is what they used. Amate in Nahuatl would correspond with > amacuahuitl/anacuahuitl, but these are two different trees. > Is anyone familiar with this tree and it's name? > Here is a picture of a mature tree's trunk and bark: > > http://valleygreenspace.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/old-age-woodpecker-hom-in-ancient-anacahuite.jpg > Here is a picture of the tree's flower, fruite and leaves: > http://magicedspotrerochico.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/036.jpg > > > Thank you in advance! > > Sincerely,Rafael Benavides > > > > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 252, Issue 4 > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:28:57 -0600 > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. More things to consider (IDIEZ) > > 2. Re: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli (Campbell, R. Joe) > > 3. Re: tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli (IDIEZ) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:18:00 -0600 > > From: IDIEZ > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] More things to consider > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > > > Consider these examples, in which final morphemes are deleted in the > process of converting a verb to a noun, and how parallel options are used > to provide shades of meaning: > > 1. cuelpachoa, nic, "to fold s.t." > tlacuelpachtli, "a cuff" vs > tlacuelpacholli, "folded clothing." > > 2. payania, nic, "to crumble s.t." > cintli tlapayantli, "corn pieces" > vs "cintli tlapayanilli", "crumbled corn." > > 3. tentia, nic, "to sharpen s.t." > tlatentli, "cochiyoh tlatentli", "a > sharp knife," vs. "cochiyoh tlatentilli", "a sharpened knife." > > 4. pahtia, nic. "to fertilize or apply herbicide to a plant." > "toctli > tlapahtli", "a fertilized corn plant," "toctli tlapahtilli," "a corn plant > that has been fertilized." > > On the one hand we have objects that have undergone a completed > action, and on the other hand we have words that emphasize more the process > which the objects have undergone. Then there that little detail of the > morpheme deletion. > > The reason I'm starting to notice these, and many, many more > examples, is that we are working a lot on words in our dictionary that > begin with "tla-". > > John > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:23:41 -0500 > > From: "Campbell, R. Joe" > > To: IDIEZ > > Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli > > Message-ID: <20120307142341.rtvu3r380844wgog at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > Piyali Piljohntzi, > > > > This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky > thing... > > a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive > > suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the > > meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers > > to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses > > "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. > > > > examples: > > > > maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve > > > > (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) > > > > tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing > > cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door > > > > Joe > > > > > > *tla7 *** > > alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de > > cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- > > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde > > solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. > telli +ltl>ll tla7>. 55m-3| > > callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > ll>. 55m-10| > > camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o > > cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. > +xy>xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| > > caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; > > crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. > tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-20| > > cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a > > grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. > ma:tlatl-co2 tla7>. 55m-10| > > cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; > > grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). > > . 55m-10| > > centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o > > aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; > > senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| > > centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | > > centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). > > simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . > > 71m1-1202| > > centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. > yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-18| > > chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de > > leche. > tla7 +xy>x>. 71m2-8| > > conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > . 55m-10| > > cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de > > alguna cosa. . 55m-15| > > cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa?o para cubrir la > > cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa?o para cubrir la cabeza. > > . 55m-15| > > cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle > > down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| > > cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.2 f.13 p.208| > > cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de > > nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| > > cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. > cuitlatl-pan-ca:tl-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. > l tla7 +ly>ll>. 55m-1| > > icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o > > sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . > > 71m2-21| > > [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. > tahtli tla7 +kin>. b.10 f.1 p.9| > > icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; > > piuela de halcon. ll +z>x > > +a>i>. 55m-16| > > ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . > > 71m1-1202| > > ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de > > alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. > cua:itl tla7>. 55m-10| > > ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. > cua:itl tla7>. b.2 f.8 p.143| > > ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera > > cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la > > puerta. . 55m-2| > > ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. > i:xi:ptlatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.1 f.3 p.58| > > ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna > > cosa. . 71m2-21| > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. > i:xtli-pan-yo:tl1 +del.n tla7>. 71m2-21| > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa > > presente. . 55m-15| > > ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; > > grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- > > 21| > > ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que > > nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. > i:xtli-yoa:-l in chi:chi:3-hua1-l1-a:tl1-yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx > > +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| > > ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. > > xx>. 55m-10| > > maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- > > 13| > > mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. > > . 55m-3| > > mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. > tla7>. b.2 f.3 p.71| > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi > > is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| > > mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) > > | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa > > assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; > > escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- > > 102| > > mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. > dupl-ma:tlatl-yahualli tla7>. 55m-3| > > mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its > > steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| > > mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. > > . b.11 f.26 p.269| > > mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. > ma:tlatl-yoa:-l-co2 tla7>. b.12 f.4 p.63| > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after > > tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- > > 19| > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. > yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-1202| > > mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . > > b.8 f.5 p.81| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los > > manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish > > +prob>. 71m2-10| > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 > > +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| > > molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor > > para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. > hua:ztli tla7>. 71m1-151| > > nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina > > de edificio. . 55m-9| > > nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 > > p.123| > > nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. > tla7>. 55m-17| > > nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. > to:n-tl tla7>. b.11 f.18 p.182| > > nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. > dupl-to:n-plur02 tla7 plur10b +del.n>. b.10 f.4 p.77| > > nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. > tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| > > nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. > +e>i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > rayz para purgar. . 55m- > > 17| > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. > ni1 poss-nelhuatl tla7>. 71m1-191| > > ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > caminos. . 55m-6| > > ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > caminos (idem). . 55m-6| > > ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. > delya-l1 tla7>. b.6 f.19 p.247| > > ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. > > . b.11 f.21 p.218| > > pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado > > cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. > ++cahuallo tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; > > cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande > > y chico). . 55m-13| > > patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . > > 55m-16| > > pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . > > b.9 f.7 p.96| > > pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. > pechtli-yoa:-l tla7>. b.9 f.7 p.94| > > quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . > tla7>. b.2 f.4 p.84| > > quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de > > almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para > > emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-7| > > quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o > > fin de algo. . 71m2-23| > > tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de > > arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . > > 55m-8| > > telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque?a; altozano; > > o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . > > 71m1-021| > > tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa?o^ya quitado o > > cortado del mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado o cortado del > > mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado. > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . > > b.10 f.5 p.91| > > tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; > > trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; > > franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. > tla7>. 55m-9| > > tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . > l tla7>. b.11 f.27 p.279| > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing > > error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. > > . 55m-19| > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; > > postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. > l tla7 +tzy>tzy>. 55m-15| > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. > tepotztli-yo:tl1 tla7 +tzy>tz>. 71m2-23| > > til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. > > b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| > > tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; > > cuesta peque?a. i>. 71m2-23| > > tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; > > trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| > > tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.27| > > tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . > > b.11 f.5 p.39| > > tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy > > feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| > > tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather > > down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| > > tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . > tla7>. b.2 f.10 p.164| > > tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. > yo:tl1-yo:tl1 tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.26| > > tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. > > chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- > > 18| > > tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-151| > > tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. > > b.10 f.10 p.167| > > tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. > telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| > > tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- > > 191| > > tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 > > p.99| > > tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. > tla7>. 55m-15| > > tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. > > . b.11 f.25 p.261| > > tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; > > garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| > > tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o > > cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o > > afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-001| > > tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; > > fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- > > 6| > > tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que > > queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- > > 17| > > xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. > telli-e:1-prt4 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. > xa:lli-poss-telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo > > delo entero y principal. . > > 55m-15| > > xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque?a. > xelli-v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7>. 55m-15| > > xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . > +need:bird>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . > > 71m1-172| > > yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 > > p.64| > > > > morpheme count 332 > > > > > > > > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > > > > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > > > In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa > > > echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of > > > pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In > > > Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of > > > the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." > > > Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" > > > that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? > > > In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning > "something > > > that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with > > > it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same > > > way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. > > > And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the > > > variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation > > > between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel > > > length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge > > > provokes thought. > > > John > > > > > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > > Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > > > Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > > > +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > > > +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > > > idiez at me.com > > > www.macehualli.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:28:38 -0600 > > From: IDIEZ > > To: "Campbell, R. Joe" > > Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tlaye:ctli, tlate:ntli > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Piljoetzin, > > So in other words, in a case like "tlacuelpachtli", "cuff", we > are dealing with: > > 1. tla7 > > 2. cuelpachtli, the (compound) root of "cuelpachihui", "cuelpachoa" and > "cuelpachtic (by way of the unattested 'cuelpachti(ya).'" > > Right? > > John > > > > On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Campbell, R. Joe wrote: > > > > > Piyali Piljohntzi, > > > > > > This is topic close to my heart!! Grammatically, it's a sneaky > thing... > > > a possessive tla- (which normally results in loss of the absolutive > > > suffix) with retention of the absolutive, but not much sign of the > > > meaning of the possessive itself. I label it "tla7". Andrews refers > > > to it in the revised edition on pp. 122-123 and p. 560. It expresses > > > "likeness" or analogy to the prefixed noun. > > > > > > examples: > > > > > > maitl arm tlamaitl sleeve > > > > > > (tlamaitl can be possessed: itlama, its sleeve) > > > > > > tentli lip, edge tlatentli border of clothing > > > cuaitl head tlaixcuatl lintel of a door > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > *tla7 *** > > > alotlachcayotl (alotlachcayotl). scarlet macaw down. > > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > > cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl (cahuallotlapachiuhcayotl). paramentos de > > > cauallo; cubierta o manta de cauallo. <++cahuallo-tla?-pachihui-prt1- > > > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > > callatelli (callatelli). casal do auia casas; casal; lugar donde > > > solia auer casas; casar; lugar; donde solia auer casas. > > telli +ltl>ll tla7>. 55m-3| > > > callotl =tla (tlacallotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > > ll>. 55m-10| > > > camatlapachiuhcayotl (camatlapachiuhcayotl). manta de cama; manta; o > > > cubierta de cama. <++cama-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 > > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > > caxxotl , tla- (tla$caxxotl). crucible. > > +xy>xx>. b.9 f.6 p.75| > > > caxyotl =tla (tlacaxxotl). crisol en que funden metales o cosa assi; > > > crisol para derretir metal; o cosa semejante. > > tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-20| > > > cecentlamamatlac (cecentlamamatlac). grada a grada, aduerbio; grada a > > > grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada. > > ma:tlatl-co2 tla7>. 55m-10| > > > cecentlamamatlapan (cecentlamamatlapan). grada a grada, aduerbio; > > > grada a grada. aduerbio; en cada grada; o grada a^grada (idem). > > > . 55m-10| > > > centlaixtlapantli (centlaixtlapantli). la mitad de cosa hendida o > > > aserrada por medio. . 71m2-3| > > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). cosa senzilla, o vna hoja de libro; > > > senzillo cosa no doblada. . 71m2-3| > > > centlaixtli (busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada) | > > > centlaixtli || busca senzillo (found senzillo cosa no doblada)). > > > simple cosa no doblada. . 71m1-192| > > > centlaixtli (centlaixtli). vna hoja de libro. . > > > 71m1-1202| > > > centlaixyotl (centlaixxotl). senzillez no dobladura. > > yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx>. 55m-18| > > > chichihualayotl =itlaixyo in (itlaixo in^chichihualayotl). nata de > > > leche. > > tla7 +xy>x>. 71m2-8| > > > conyotl =tla (tlaconyotl). funda o caxa de caliz o de cosa semejante. > > > . 55m-10| > > > cotoncayotl =tla (tlacotoncayotl). parte del todo; pedazo; o parte de > > > alguna cosa. . 55m-15| > > > cuatlapachiuhcayotl (cuatlapachiuhcayotl). pa?o para cubrir la > > > cabeza; velo o toca de muger; toca; o pa?o para cubrir la cabeza. > > > . 55m-15| > > > cuauhtlachcayotica (cuauhtlachcayotica). with eagle down, using eagle > > > down. . b.2 f.3 p.69| > > > cuauhtlachcayotl (cuauhtlachcayotl). eagle down. > > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.2 f.13 p.208| > > > cuexcochtli =tla (tlacuexcochtli). popa de nauio o canoa; popa de > > > nauio o de canoa. . 55m-16| > > > cuitlapancayotl =tla (tlacuitlapancayotl). trasera cosa. > > cuitlatl-pan-ca:tl-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > > huicollotl =tla (tlahuicollotl). asa de jarro. > > l tla7 +ly>ll>. 55m-1| > > > icampayotl =tla (tlaicampayotl). cosa de allende los montes, o > > > sierras; parte trasera; trasera cosa. . > > > 71m2-21| > > > [i]cpatahtli , tla- (tla$[i]cpatahtli). stepfather. > > tahtli tla7 +kin>. b.10 f.1 p.9| > > > icxihuicollotl =tla (tlaicxihuicollotl). piuela de halcon o azor; > > > piuela de halcon. ll +z>x > > > +a>i>. 55m-16| > > > ixcuahuitl =tla (tlaixcuahuitl). vmbral. . > > > 71m1-1202| > > > ixcuaitl =tla (tlaixcuaitl). frente de qualquiera cosa; la frente de > > > alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la puerta. > > cua:itl tla7>. 55m-10| > > > ixcuatl , tla- (tla$ixcuatl). door lintel; lintel. > > cua:itl tla7>. b.2 f.8 p.143| > > > ixcuatl =tla (tlaixcuatl). batiente de puerta; frente de qualquiera > > > cosa; la frente de alguna cosa; o lo alto del vmbral donde bate la > > > puerta. . 55m-2| > > > ixcuayotl =tla (tlaixcuayotl). parte delantera. > > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > > ixiptlayotl , tla- (tla$ixiptlayotl). likeness, image. > > i:xi:ptlatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.1 f.3 p.58| > > > ixiptlayotl =tla (tlaixiptlayotl). imagen pintada; ymagen de alguna > > > cosa. . 71m2-21| > > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpayotl). la delantera de alguna cosa. > > i:xtli-pan-yo:tl1 +del.n tla7>. 71m2-21| > > > ixpanyotl =tla (tlaixpanyotl). parte delantera; presencia de cosa > > > presente. . 55m-15| > > > ixyo =tla (tlaixxo). cosa grasienta; grasiento lleno de grassa; > > > grasiento; lleno de grassa. xx>. 71m2- > > > 21| > > > ixyo in chichihualayotl =itla (itlaixxo in^chichihualayotl). nata que > > > nada sobre la leche; nata; que nada sobre la leche. > > i:xtli-yoa:-l in chi:chi:3-hua1-l1-a:tl1-yoa:-l tla7 +xy>xx > > > +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-14| > > > ixyotl =tla (tlaixxotl). grassa por grosura; grassa o somo dela olla. > > > xx>. 55m-10| > > > maitl =tla (tlamaitl). manga de vestidura. . 55m- > > > 13| > > > mamatlailacatztli =tla (tlamamatlailacatztli). caracol de escalera. > > > . 55m-3| > > > mamatlatl , tla- (tla$mamatlatl). step, stairway. > > tla7>. b.2 f.3 p.71| > > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi (assi > > > is escalera de palo); escalon. . 55m-8| > > > mamatlatl =tla (busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa assi) > > > | tlamamatlatl || busca escalera (found: escalera de piedra o cosa > > > assi)). escala. . 71m1-102| > > > mamatlatl =tla (tlamamatlatl). escalera de piedra o cosa assi; > > > escalon; o grada; grada para subir. . 71m1- > > > 102| > > > mamatlayahualli =tla (tlamamatlayahualli). caracol de escalera. > > dupl-ma:tlatl-yahualli tla7>. 55m-3| > > > mamatlayo , itla- (itla$mamatlayo). its stairway; its stairways; its > > > steps. . b.2 f.11 p.178| > > > mamatlayo , tla- (tla$mamatlayo). having steps; having a stairway. > > > . b.11 f.26 p.269| > > > mamatlayoc , itla- (itla$mamatlayoc). its stairway. > > ma:tlatl-yoa:-l-co2 tla7>. b.12 f.4 p.63| > > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl) [scribal error: ??no period after > > > tlamecayotl: 55m]. trena o trenza. . 55m- > > > 19| > > > mecayotl =tla (tlamecayotl). trena o trenza; trenza. > > yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-1202| > > > mecayouh , intla- (intla$mecayouh). . . > > > b.8 f.5 p.81| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 55m-13| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > > +spanish>. 55m-13| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. <++mesa-tla?- > > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7 +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7 > > > +spanish>. 71m1-151| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotl (mesatlapachiuhcayotl). cobertor de mesa, o los > > > manteles. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1 tla7 +spanish > > > +prob>. 71m2-10| > > > mesatlapachiuhcayotontli (mesatlapachiuhcayotontli). manteles > > > peque?os. <++mesa-tla?-pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yo:tl1-to:n-tl tla7 > > > +spanish +prob>. 71m2-10| > > > molhuaztli =tla (tlamolhuaztli). mecedor, el instrumento; mecedor > > > para mecer poledas; o pinolli; quando lo hazen &c. > > hua:ztli tla7>. 71m1-151| > > > nacaztli =tla (tlanacaztli). esquina de casa; esquinada cosa; esquina > > > de edificio. . 55m-9| > > > nelhuatl , tla- (tla$nelhuatl). root. . b.6 f.10 > > > p.123| > > > nelhuatl =tla (tlanelhuatl). rayz de arbol o yerua. > > tla7>. 55m-17| > > > nelhuatontli , tla- (tla$nelhuatontli). little root. > > to:n-tl tla7>. b.11 f.18 p.182| > > > nelhuatotonti , tla- (tla$nelhuatotonti). small roots. > > dupl-to:n-plur02 tla7 plur10b +del.n>. b.10 f.4 p.77| > > > nextlatilco (nextlatilco). on an ash heap. > > tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.19 p.193| > > > nextlatilli (nextlatilli). ashen mound. > > +e>i>. b.11 f.24 p.253| > > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni^tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > > rayz para purgar. . 55m- > > > 17| > > > noquiloni tlanelhuatl =tla (tlanoquiloni tlanelhuatl). ruibarbo o > > > rayz para purgar; ruibaruo; o rayz para purgar. > > ni1 poss-nelhuatl tla7>. 71m1-191| > > > ohtlamaxac (ohtlamaxac). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > > caminos. . 55m-6| > > > ohtlamaxalco (ohtlamaxalco). dos caminos do se parten; encruzijada de > > > caminos (idem). . 55m-6| > > > ohtlamaxalli (ohtlamaxalli). crossroads. > > delya-l1 tla7>. b.6 f.19 p.247| > > > ohuihcan , tla- (tla$ohuihcan). dangerous place, difficult place. > > > . b.11 f.21 p.218| > > > pachiuhcayocahuallo =tla (tlapachiuhcayocahuallo). paramentado > > > cauallo; cahuallo emmantado. > > ++cahuallo tla7 +spanish>. 55m-15| > > > pachiuhcayotl =tla (tlapachiuhcayotl). velo o toca de muger; > > > cobertura de algo; o velo y^toca de muger. > > yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-19| > > > paniyotl =i (ipaniyotl). mediania assi (assi is mediano entre grande > > > y chico). . 55m-13| > > > patiyotl =tla (tlapatiyotl). precio. . > > > 55m-16| > > > pepechotl , tla- (tla$pepechotl). . . > > > b.9 f.7 p.96| > > > pepechyotl , tla- (tla$pepechyotl). basis, foundation. > > pechtli-yoa:-l tla7>. b.9 f.7 p.94| > > > quechpanyotl , tla- (tla$quechpanyotl). . > > tla7>. b.2 f.4 p.84| > > > quimiliuhcayotl =tla (tlaquimiliuhcayotl). emboluedero; funda de > > > almohada o colchon; funda de almohada o de colchon; cosa para > > > emboluer algo; o funda de almohada; o de colchon. > > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-7| > > > quizcayotl =tla (tlaquizcayotl). cabo o fin de alguna cosa; dexo o > > > fin de algo. . 71m2-23| > > > tacaxtli =tla (tlatacaxtli). escauadura assi (assi is escauador de > > > arboles); escaua o hoyo de arboles. &c. . > > > 55m-8| > > > telli =tla (tlatelli). altozano o rebenton, cuesta peque?a; altozano; > > > o monton de tierra grande; tierra amontonada. . > > > 71m1-021| > > > tenhuetzcayotl =tla (tlatenhuetzcayotl). orillo pa?o^ya quitado o > > > cortado del mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado o cortado del > > > mismo pa?o; orillo de pa?o ya quitado. > > ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-15| > > > tentli , tla- (tla$tentli). band of cloth. . > > > b.10 f.5 p.91| > > > tentli =tla (tlatentli). flocadura; flocadura de vestidura; o mayz; > > > trigo; frisoles; o cosa semejante echado y puesto en algun lugar; > > > franja o orilla de vestidura; orilla de vestidura. > > tla7>. 55m-9| > > > tepotzcayotl , tla- (tla$tepotzcayotl). . > > l tla7>. b.11 f.27 p.279| > > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl) [scribal error: ??01|printing > > > error: tlatepuzcayotl for tlateputzcayotl: 55m]. trasera cosa. > > > . 55m-19| > > > tepotzcayotl =tla (tlatepotzcayotl). trasera cosa; cosa rezagada; > > > postrera o trasera. . 71m1-201| > > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzyotl). parte trasera. > > l tla7 +tzy>tzy>. 55m-15| > > > tepotzyotl =tla (tlatepotzotl). parte trasera de alguna cosa. > > tepotztli-yo:tl1 tla7 +tzy>tz>. 71m2-23| > > > til , itla- (itla$til). her eminence. i>. > > > b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > > tilli , tla- (tla$tilli). eminence; hill; mound. > > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124a| > > > tilli =tla (tlatilli). ; altozano o rebenton; > > > cuesta peque?a. i>. 71m2-23| > > > tilmahtlatentli (tilmahtlatentli). orilla de vestidura, o ribete; > > > trepa de vestidura. . 71m2-19| > > > tiltic , tla- (tla$tiltic). having an eminence. > > +e>i>. b.10 f.7 p.124b| > > > tlachcayo , i- (i$tlachcayo). its down; its feathers. > > ichcatl-yoa:-l tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.27| > > > tlachcayotic (tlachcayotic). downy. . > > > b.11 f.5 p.39| > > > tlachcayotica (tlachcayotica). with downy feathers, using downy > > > feathers. . b.2 f.10 p.170| > > > tlachcayotl (tlachcayotl). ; pluma delicada y blanda; down; feather > > > down. . b.11 f.5 p.39| > > > tlachcayoyo , i- (i$tlachcayoyo). . > > tla7>. b.2 f.10 p.164| > > > tlachcayoyo (tlachcayoyo). having downy feathers. > > yo:tl1-yo:tl1 tla7>. b.11 f.3 p.26| > > > tlaixpechyotl =canahuac (canahuac tlaixpechchotl). sauana de lienzo. > > > chch tla7 +phrase>. 55m- > > > 18| > > > tlapachiuhcayotl =tla (tlatlapachiuhcayotl). manteles. > > pachihui-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 71m1-151| > > > tlatil , in- (in-tlatil). their mound. i>. > > > b.10 f.10 p.167| > > > tlatiltia , mo- (mo-tlatiltia). it forms itself a mound. > > telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.89| > > > tlatquitl =tla (tlatlatquitl). ropa. . 71m1- > > > 191| > > > tlatzcallotl (tlatzcallotl). . ll tla7>. b.2 f.5 > > > p.99| > > > tlazohtlatentli (tlazohtlatentli). orla. > > tla7>. 55m-15| > > > tozcatl , tla- (tla$tozcatl). narrows; pass between two mountains. > > > . b.11 f.25 p.261| > > > tozcatl =tla (tlatozcatl). cerca, o junto delo alto del cerro; > > > garganta de monte. . 71m2-24| > > > tzetzeliuhcayotl =tla (tlatzetzeliuhcayotl). afrechos saluados, o > > > cosa assi; cedazo; afrechos o saluados; harnero; cedazo o criua; o > > > afrechos {??printing error: triua for criua}. > > v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l tla7>. 55m-001| > > > tzonquizcayotl =tla (tlatzonquizcayotl). dexo o fin de algo; termino; > > > fin o cabo de algo. . 55m- > > > 6| > > > tzonyotl =tla (tlatzonyotl). redrojo de fruta; redrojo de fruta que > > > queda en las ramas altas del arbol. . 55m- > > > 17| > > > xallatileh (xallatileh). one that has a mound of sand. > > telli-e:1-prt4 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > > xallatiltia , mo- (mo-xallatiltia). it makes itself sand heaps. > > xa:lli-poss-telli-v04-caus08 tla7 +e>i>. b.11 f.9 p.90| > > > xeliuhcayotl =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotl). parte del todo; parte o pedazo > > > delo entero y principal. . > > > 55m-15| > > > xeliuhcayotontli =tla (tlaxeliuhcayotontli). parte peque?a. > > xelli-v03a-prt1-ca:5-yoa:-l-to:n-tl tla7>. 55m-15| > > > xomotlachcayotl (xomotlachcayotl). . > > +need:bird>. b.11 f.6 p.55| > > > yacatl =tla (tlayacatl). prima en cada genero. . > > > 71m1-172| > > > yollotl , tla- (tla$yollotl). . . b.2 f.2 > > > p.64| > > > > > > morpheme count 332 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quoting IDIEZ : > > > > > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > > >> In Classical we have "tlate:ntli" with two definitions: 1. cosa > > >> echada (which comes from te:ma) and 2. cuff (of a shirt of pair of > > >> pants) (from te:ntli). They are obviously two different words. In > > >> Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, for "tlate:ntli" we have 1. "at the side of > > >> the road where the forest begins" and 2. "a sharp knife or machete." > > >> Both of these come from "te:ntli". I'm interested in the "tlate:ntli" > > >> that comes from "te:ntli." What is the "tla-" doing? > > >> In Modern Huastecan Nahuatl we have "tlaye:ctli," meaning > "something > > >> that no longer has little specks of things (basuritas) mixed in with > > >> it." It looks like this is built on a noun, "ye:ctli", in the same > > >> way that "tlate:ntli" is. Again, what is the "tla-" doing. > > >> And as an aside and given our little recent discussion about the > > >> variantion between n and c, I wonder if there might not be a relation > > >> between tequi and te:ntli. I know there is a difference in vowel > > >> length, due to....., but the relation between cutting and edge > > >> provokes thought. > > >> John > > >> > > >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > >> Professor of Nahua Language and Culture > > >> Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > > >> +52 (492) 925-3425 (office) > > >> +52 1 (492) 103-0195 (mobile) > > >> idiez at me.com > > >> www.macehualli.org > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 252, Issue 4 > > *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 15 17:28:40 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:28:40 -0600 Subject: Florentine republished Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, I have just received word that in mid April the U of Utah Press will release a new paperback edition (with original color illustrations in color) of Anderson and Dibble's 12 volume Florentine Codex. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Fri Mar 16 02:03:00 2012 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:03:00 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 253, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ANAKAHUITA: I UNDERTAIN LIKE INAKUHITO: IR A LEVANTAR. O KON HAH KUITOH. PAYANIA: MOLER, MAJAR, EN TERCERAPERSONA YE KI PAYANIA I KAFEN EL MUELE EL CAF? DE EL/ELLA TENTIA: AFILAR YEH TLA TENTIA: EL AFILA PAHTIA: CURAR: JACINTO TLAPAHTIA JACINTO CURA GOOD DAY _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Sun Mar 18 10:05:25 2012 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 03:05:25 -0700 Subject: October 28 observance Message-ID: Listeros, I?m interesting in finding out the geographical distribution of the observance of the dead on October 28.? In the Tepoztl?n area this day honors los matados, ?the slain ones,? - oquinmictique, i.e., people who have died without the sacrament of extreme unction such as suicides, murder and accident victims, as well as people who have drowned or been struck by lightning. If you can give me a locale in the Republic (or anywhere else) where this ?dia de los matados? is observed I?d be extremely grateful. Thanks in advance,Tom Grigsby _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Mon Mar 19 09:38:44 2012 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 03:38:44 -0600 Subject: yomoni, ixyoyomoni; atzcalli In-Reply-To: <6570f50d19838e580bb52bc3ba30c5cd.squirrel@mailbox.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Hallo Gordon, Bist Du in Deutschland? Also eine kleine Erkl?rung in deutscher und spanischer Sprache. In den Nahua-Varianten von Chachahuantla (Huauhchinango) und Cuetzalan ist yomoni nicht bekannt. Man hat aber das Wort moyoni und auch ixmoyoni, ixmomoyoni und ixmohmoyoni. Moyoni: beschreibt die Bewegung von Ameisen und Bienen, nachdem der Ameisenhaufen bzw. der Bienenschwarm mit einem Stab ber?hrt worden ist. Sie (Ameisen und Bienen) gehen bzw. fliegen in "allen" Richtungen. In Spanisch sagt man "alborotar" daf?r. Das Wort hat aber auch andere Bedeutungen. Moyoni also bezieht sich auf (vor allem) Tiere, die aus einem Punkt in verschiedenen richtungen auseinandergehen. Ixmoyoni: Geb?rden machen. Aber diese Geb?rden sollten die Augen als Ausgangspunkt haben (dieselbe Idee der o.g. Bewegung) Ixmomoyoni: Geb?rden wiederholt machen Ixmohmoyoni: Man macht eine Geb?rde und dann keine, dann aber eine, dann keine, dann aber noch eine, usw. En las variantes nahuas de Chachahuantla (Area de Huauchinango) y Cuetzalan no se conoce la palabra yomoni. Se tiene sin embargo la palabra moyoni, y tambi?n ixmoyoni, ixmomoyoni, ixmohmoyoni. Moyoni: describe el movimiento de las hormigas y abejas despu?s de que el hormiguero o enjambre a sido tocado por ej. con un palo. Los animalitos caminan o vuelan en "todas" direcciones. En espa?ol decimos "alborotar", pero la palabra tiene tambi?n otros significados. Moyoni se refiere, por tanto, a -sobre todo- animales que desde un punto central se dispersan, desperdigan en diferentes direcciones. Ixmoyoni: hacer gestos. Pero estos gestos deber?n tener como punto de origen los ojos (la misma idea del movimiento mencionado arriba). Ixmomoyoni: hacer gestos de manera repetida. Ixmohmoyoni: hacer un gesto, luego ninguno, luego uno, luego ninguno, pero luego un gesto m?s y etc. Nimitzyoltlapalohua Tomas Amaya 2012/3/7 Gordon Whittaker > Dear Nahua(tl at lists.famsi.org)tlaca, > > I've been trying to find information on a verb and its derivatives that > relates to a glyph in the Nahuatl writing system of the mid-16th century. > > The verb is (a spelling for yomo:ni/yo'mo:ni/yo:mo:ni), > approximately 'twitch, itch', among other things. > > Related to this is 'grimace, make faces', composed of i:x- > 'face' and what is presumably yo'yomo:ni or yo'yo:mo:ni. > > I would be very grateful if someone could let me know if there is any > dialect (or textual) evidence for the shape of the syllables and > in these two related verbs. In particular, is there any direct > evidence for a short or long vowel, or vowel plus glottal stop/fricative > ('/h), in the first syllable of ? Has anyone come across the > compound in a modern dialect? Given the meaning of the > compound, the first syllable of is presumably yo'/yoh. > > Term 2: Another elusive form is the Florentine Codex's (a kind > of shell). I presume a compound of a:- 'water', and a verbal element with > subsequent syncope of *tzical-. Has anyone seen or heard evidence for the > length of the initial vowel? Thanks again for any tips. > > Best wishes, > Gordon > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Prof. Dr. Gordon Whittaker > Direktor > Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie > Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen > Humboldtallee 19 > 37073 Goettingen > Germany > tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 > tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta4 at googlemail.com Tue Mar 20 15:42:59 2012 From: gwhitta4 at googlemail.com (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:42:59 +0100 Subject: yomo:ni vs. moyo:ni -- a metathetical relationship? Message-ID: Tomastzine, Many thanks for your valuable comments! A couple of days before receiving your mail I had been communicating with Jonathan Amith on and he remarked that it "sounds sounds something like moyo:ni, which is used for the agitated movement of disturbed insects" in Guerrero Nahuatl. That got me thinking about the possibility that might just be a local or regional metathetical variant of the well-attested moyo:ni. So I checked Molina and this is what I came up with: Moyoni. bullir las hormigas gusanos o cosa semejante. [...] Yomoni. bullir los gusanos, o piojos, pulgas, hormigas, o cosas semejantes, o dar mucha comezon los granos o la serna, o tener gran encendimiento de la carne los mozos o mozas luxuriosas. Yoyomiquiliztli. comezon. Yoyomoca. ni. tener comezon. Yoyomoctli. los ri?ones. I think the striking similarity between the first two entries strongly suggests not only a semantic but also a morphological/genetic relationship between the two verbs. So then I checked the Florentine Codex, and this is what I found in Bk. 10, Ch. 27, Par. 12 (p. 131 in Dibble and Anderson): *Testis Joiomoctli: * [...] it moves lasciviously moioma, both move lasciviously moi?ioma, it stirs iomonj, it swoons with lasciviousness i?ionmjquj, [...] Sahag?n's juxtaposition of these verbs again suggests a close semantic, if not morphological, relationship. I suspect that might refer to making faces by rolling the eyes and twitching the face. The of Sahag?n is likely to be o + glottal stop. What is interesting here is the fact that the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the first. So in both these verbs, and , we have a reduplicated /yo'/ (with glottal stop). The verbs with initial /yo/ are likely to be local or regional variants hailing from Mexico and/or Tetzcoco and environs. Cf. also the dynastic name Yoyontli. Tom?s, your information on similar verbs in Chachahuantla and Cuetzalan, especially on ixmomoyoni (for i:xmo:moyo:ni, with the first o vowel long?) and ixmohmoyoni, is, I think, confirmation of this hypothesis. It would be interesting to know if the same compounds turn up elsewhere. Thanks so much for your very useful comments. Cenca' nimitztlazo'ca:mati! ?brigens, Dein Deutsch ist bewundernswert. Ich w?nschte mir, meins w?re so gut! I am also very grateful to Jonathan Amith, John Sullivan and to the contributors to the totlahtol list for their thought-provoking comments and data. Best wishes, Gordon On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino < t_amaya at megared.net.mx > wrote: Hallo Gordon, Bist Du in Deutschland? Also eine kleine Erkl?rung in deutscher und spanischer Sprache. In den Nahua-Varianten von Chachahuantla (Huauhchinango) und Cuetzalan ist yomoni nicht bekannt. Man hat aber das Wort moyoni und auch ixmoyoni, ixmomoyoni und ixmohmoyoni. Moyoni: beschreibt die Bewegung von Ameisen und Bienen, nachdem der Ameisenhaufen bzw. der Bienenschwarm mit einem Stab ber?hrt worden ist. Sie (Ameisen und Bienen) gehen bzw. fliegen in "allen" Richtungen. In Spanisch sagt man "alborotar" daf?r. Das Wort hat aber auch andere Bedeutungen. Moyoni also bezieht sich auf (vor allem) Tiere, die aus einem Punkt in verschiedenen richtungen auseinandergehen. Ixmoyoni: Geb?rden machen. Aber diese Geb?rden sollten die Augen als Ausgangspunkt haben (dieselbe Idee der o.g. Bewegung) Ixmomoyoni: Geb?rden wiederholt machen Ixmohmoyoni: Man macht eine Geb?rde und dann keine, dann aber eine, dann keine, dann aber noch eine, usw. En las variantes nahuas de Chachahuantla (Area de Huauchinango) y Cuetzalan no se conoce la palabra yomoni. Se tiene sin embargo la palabra moyoni, y tambi?n ixmoyoni, ixmomoyoni, ixmohmoyoni. Moyoni: describe el movimiento de las hormigas y abejas despu?s de que el hormiguero o enjambre a sido tocado por ej. con un palo. Los animalitos caminan o vuelan en "todas" direcciones. En espa?ol decimos "alborotar", pero la palabra tiene tambi?n otros significados. Moyoni se refiere, por tanto, a -sobre todo- animales que desde un punto central se dispersan, desperdigan en diferentes direcciones. Ixmoyoni: hacer gestos. Pero estos gestos deber?n tener como punto de origen los ojos (la misma idea del movimiento mencionado arriba). Ixmomoyoni: hacer gestos de manera repetida. Ixmohmoyoni: hacer un gesto, luego ninguno, luego uno, luego ninguno, pero luego un gesto m?s y etc. Nimitzyoltlapalohua Tomas Amaya 2012/3/7 Gordon Whittaker > Dear Nahua(tl at lists.famsi.org )tlaca, I've been trying to find information on a verb and its derivatives that relates to a glyph in the Nahuatl writing system of the mid-16th century. The verb is (a spelling for yomo:ni/yo'mo:ni/yo:mo:ni), approximately 'twitch, itch', among other things. Related to this is 'grimace, make faces', composed of i:x- 'face' and what is presumably yo'yomo:ni or yo'yo:mo:ni. I would be very grateful if someone could let me know if there is any dialect (or textual) evidence for the shape of the syllables and in these two related verbs. In particular, is there any direct evidence for a short or long vowel, or vowel plus glottal stop/fricative ('/h), in the first syllable of ? Has anyone come across the compound in a modern dialect? Given the meaning of the compound, the first syllable of is presumably yo'/yoh. Term 2: Another elusive form is the Florentine Codex's (a kind of shell). I presume a compound of a:- 'water', and a verbal element with subsequent syncope of *tzical-. Has anyone seen or heard evidence for the length of the initial vowel? Thanks again for any tips. Best wishes, Gordon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Prof. Dr. Gordon Whittaker Direktor Seminar fuer Romanische Philologie Georg-August-Universitaet Goettingen Humboldtallee 19 37073 Goettingen Germany tel./fax (priv.): ++49-5594-89333 tel. (office): ++49-551-394188 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta4 at googlemail.com Wed Mar 21 08:10:43 2012 From: gwhitta4 at googlemail.com (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:10:43 +0100 Subject: moyoma (vs. moyoni) reconsidered Message-ID: Dear Nahuatl(@lists.famsi.org)aca, Not long after clicking on Send to submit my last post on yomo:ni vs. moyo:ni I realized that I should have gotten a little more sleep before writing it. While rereading the post I noticed that I had completely overlooked the obvious fact that Sahag?n's and are not odd cognates of moyo:ni (and yomo:ni) but rather simple reflexives with prefixed mo-. Oops! So my comment "What is interesting here is the fact that the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the first. " is not interesting at all, because the verb stem is actually , not (in the Florentine's orthography). I stand by the other remarks and comparisons made, concerning the relationship between Molina's and . The metathesis of moyo:ni to yomo:ni, if that is what has happened, may have been facilitated by the existence of the verb mo-yoma (for which I have not yet found attestations with long o), given its semantics. Best wishes, Gordon > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:42:59 +0100 > From: Gordon Whittaker > To: t_amaya at megared.net.mx > Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] yomo:ni vs. moyo:ni -- a metathetical > relationship? > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Tomastzine, > > Many thanks for your valuable comments! A couple of days before receiving > your mail I had been communicating with Jonathan Amith on and he > remarked that it "sounds sounds something like moyo:ni, which is used for > the agitated movement of disturbed insects" in Guerrero Nahuatl. That got > me thinking about the possibility that might just be a local or > regional metathetical variant of the well-attested moyo:ni. > > So I checked Molina and this is what I came up with: > > Moyoni. bullir las hormigas gusanos o cosa semejante. > [...] > Yomoni. bullir los gusanos, o piojos, pulgas, hormigas, o cosas > semejantes, o dar mucha comezon los granos o la serna, o tener gran > encendimiento de la carne los mozos o mozas luxuriosas. > Yoyomiquiliztli. comezon. > Yoyomoca. ni. tener comezon. > Yoyomoctli. los ri?ones. > > I think the striking similarity between the first two entries strongly > suggests not only a semantic but also a morphological/genetic relationship > between the two verbs. > > So then I checked the Florentine Codex, and this is what I found in Bk. 10, > Ch. 27, Par. 12 (p. 131 in Dibble and Anderson): > > *Testis Joiomoctli: * > [...] > it moves lasciviously moioma, > both move lasciviously moi?ioma, > it stirs iomonj, > it swoons with lasciviousness i?ionmjquj, > [...] > > Sahag?n's juxtaposition of these verbs again suggests a close semantic, if > not morphological, relationship. I suspect that might refer to > making faces by rolling the eyes and twitching the face. The of Sahag?n > is likely to be o + glottal stop. What is interesting here is the fact that > the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the first. So > in both these verbs, and , we have a reduplicated > /yo'/ (with glottal stop). The verbs with initial /yo/ are likely to be > local or regional variants hailing from Mexico and/or Tetzcoco and > environs. Cf. also the dynastic name Yoyontli. > > Tom?s, your information on similar verbs in Chachahuantla and Cuetzalan, > especially on ixmomoyoni (for i:xmo:moyo:ni, with the first o vowel long?) > and ixmohmoyoni, is, I think, confirmation of this hypothesis. It would be > interesting to know if the same compounds turn up elsewhere. Thanks so much > for your very useful comments. Cenca' nimitztlazo'ca:mati! ?brigens, Dein > Deutsch ist bewundernswert. Ich w?nschte mir, meins w?re so gut! > > I am also very grateful to Jonathan Amith, John Sullivan and to the > contributors to the totlahtol list for their thought-provoking comments and > data. > > Best wishes, > Gordon > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 13:00:17 2012 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:00:17 -0400 Subject: moyoma (vs. moyoni) reconsidered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Gordon, I don't know the context of moioma but probably reflexive of yoma. This refers to a sort of scooping, tangential motion of a dragon/damselfly on the water, a woman's body as she grinds corn on a metate, and a man's body as he makes love as God ordained. In fact there is a Nahuatl riddle to this effect, nochi to:nahli cho tlayoyontok.... (cho is an intensifier). Molina has "amblar la mujer" for yoma, nino- Best, Jonathan On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:10 AM, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > Dear Nahuatl(@lists.famsi.org)aca, > > Not long after clicking on Send to submit my last post on yomo:ni vs. > moyo:ni I realized that I should have gotten a little more sleep before > writing it. While rereading the post I noticed that I had completely > overlooked the obvious fact that Sahag?n's and are not > odd cognates of moyo:ni (and yomo:ni) but rather simple reflexives with > prefixed mo-. Oops! So my comment "What is interesting here is the fact > that the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the > first. " is not interesting at all, because the verb stem is actually > , not (in the Florentine's orthography). > > I stand by the other remarks and comparisons made, concerning the > relationship between Molina's and . The metathesis of > moyo:ni to yomo:ni, if that is what has happened, may have been facilitated > by the existence of the verb mo-yoma (for which I have not yet found > attestations with long o), given its semantics. > > Best wishes, > Gordon > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:42:59 +0100 >> From: Gordon Whittaker >> To: t_amaya at megared.net.mx >> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] yomo:ni vs. moyo:ni -- a metathetical >> relationship? >> Message-ID: >> > mth4OL7AJyjYh+KiukA at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Tomastzine, >> >> Many thanks for your valuable comments! A couple of days before receiving >> your mail I had been communicating with Jonathan Amith on and he >> remarked that it "sounds sounds something like moyo:ni, which is used for >> the agitated movement of disturbed insects" in Guerrero Nahuatl. That got >> me thinking about the possibility that might just be a local or >> regional metathetical variant of the well-attested moyo:ni. >> >> So I checked Molina and this is what I came up with: >> >> Moyoni. bullir las hormigas gusanos o cosa semejante. >> [...] >> Yomoni. bullir los gusanos, o piojos, pulgas, hormigas, o cosas >> semejantes, o dar mucha comezon los granos o la serna, o tener gran >> encendimiento de la carne los mozos o mozas luxuriosas. >> Yoyomiquiliztli. comezon. >> Yoyomoca. ni. tener comezon. >> Yoyomoctli. los ri?ones. >> >> I think the striking similarity between the first two entries strongly >> suggests not only a semantic but also a morphological/genetic relationship >> between the two verbs. >> >> So then I checked the Florentine Codex, and this is what I found in Bk. >> 10, >> Ch. 27, Par. 12 (p. 131 in Dibble and Anderson): >> >> *Testis Joiomoctli: * >> [...] >> it moves lasciviously moioma, >> both move lasciviously moi?ioma, >> it stirs iomonj, >> it swoons with lasciviousness i?ionmjquj, >> [...] >> >> Sahag?n's juxtaposition of these verbs again suggests a close semantic, if >> not morphological, relationship. I suspect that might refer >> to >> making faces by rolling the eyes and twitching the face. The of >> Sahag?n >> is likely to be o + glottal stop. What is interesting here is the fact >> that >> the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the first. >> So >> in both these verbs, and , we have a reduplicated >> /yo'/ (with glottal stop). The verbs with initial /yo/ are likely to be >> local or regional variants hailing from Mexico and/or Tetzcoco and >> environs. Cf. also the dynastic name Yoyontli. >> >> Tom?s, your information on similar verbs in Chachahuantla and Cuetzalan, >> especially on ixmomoyoni (for i:xmo:moyo:ni, with the first o vowel long?) >> and ixmohmoyoni, is, I think, confirmation of this hypothesis. It would be >> interesting to know if the same compounds turn up elsewhere. Thanks so >> much >> for your very useful comments. Cenca' nimitztlazo'ca:mati! ?brigens, Dein >> Deutsch ist bewundernswert. Ich w?nschte mir, meins w?re so gut! >> >> I am also very grateful to Jonathan Amith, John Sullivan and to the >> contributors to the totlahtol list for their thought-provoking comments >> and >> data. >> >> Best wishes, >> Gordon >> > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 22 02:07:06 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600 Subject: malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, if indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 17:55:11 2012 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:55:11 -0400 Subject: Malacachoa Message-ID: Listeros, Again Canger's Five Studies leads us on the way. She shows that the -oa ending comes from earlier -i:wa which means that there must have once been a verb pair called *malacachi:wa (transitive) and *malacachiwi (intransitive), these could be derived from malaca + chiwa "make/do" through a noun incorporation. Malacachtic is obviously derived from the verb. best, Magnus ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: IDIEZ > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Cc: > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, if > indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there? > John > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. student Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 22 21:25:35 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:25:35 -0600 Subject: Malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, In fact there is a ma:lacachihui and ma:lacachoa:. And what Una says makes sense. But you would have to start with an initial noun ma:lacachtli. This would be turned into a verb in two ways. One would be ma:lacachti (adding the verber "-ti") or ma:lacachtiya (adding both verbers "-ti" and "-ya"). The preterite form of either one would be ma:lacachtic and it would simultaneously work as an adjective/adverb. The other route would be to add the verber "-ihui" to the base noun, producing ma:lacachihui. The causative of this form would be ma:lacachoa: (originally, ma:lacachihua, like Una says). However, the "ch" is part of the original noun stem, not the beginning of "chihui>chihua". And I just noticed today that the root noun has a long "a" (ma:lacachtli). "malacatl" has all short vowels. John On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Listeros, > > Again Canger's Five Studies leads us on the way. She shows that the -oa > ending comes from earlier -i:wa which means that there must have once been > a verb pair called *malacachi:wa (transitive) and *malacachiwi > (intransitive), these could be derived from malaca + chiwa "make/do" > through a noun incorporation. Malacachtic is obviously derived from the > verb. > > best, > Magnus > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: IDIEZ >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Cc: >> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, if >> indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there? >> John >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Mar 22 23:55:17 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:55:17 -0600 Subject: Malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, So taking malacachihui/malacachoa, etc., as an example, what is the verb of origin and how does it get to malacachtli? John On Mar 22, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > My basic point that i keep trying to get across on the list is that it is necessary to take into account the phonological and morphological history of words when making etymologies. Very few of the people making etymologies here use anything more than Nahuatl dictionaries to do so - this is a shame because there is a lot of very good literature such as Canger and Dakin's historical studies that show what kinds of derivations are probable and possible and which aren't. This seems to me to be a clear example of this where we know something about the history of affixes and roots, which doesn't support the existence of a noun ma:lacachtli prior to the verb ma:lacachoa/malacachihui, but rather derved from it. > > best, > Magnus > > On 22 March 2012 18:04, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > John, I know there are those two nouns, I was explaining that they both historically come from the same verb form. I don't believe theycome from a noun malacachtli rather the noun malacachtli would have to come form the verbs historically. Malacachti would be the causative forms of the intransitive one of those, and yes the malacachtic adjective form would be derived from it - but they all come from original *ma:lacachiwa. I short I believe you are deriving the wrong way by going from noun to verb - rather inNahuatl it is almost always the case thatnouns are derived frm verbs and in this case there is compelling indicia that this is the case. > > You cannot derive it with malacach + ihui that suffix doesn't exist historicall but are two different suffices with different histories. The -wa/-wi is an historical ending the i is part of the precceding suffix. > > best > Magnus > > > On 22 March 2012 17:25, IDIEZ wrote: > Magnus, > In fact there is a ma:lacachihui and ma:lacachoa:. And what Una says makes sense. But you would have to start with an initial noun ma:lacachtli. This would be turned into a verb in two ways. One would be ma:lacachti (adding the verber "-ti") or ma:lacachtiya (adding both verbers "-ti" and "-ya"). The preterite form of either one would be ma:lacachtic and it would simultaneously work as an adjective/adverb. The other route would be to add the verber "-ihui" to the base noun, producing ma:lacachihui. The causative of this form would be ma:lacachoa: (originally, ma:lacachihua, like Una says). However, the "ch" is part of the original noun stem, not the beginning of "chihui>chihua". And I just noticed today that the root noun has a long "a" (ma:lacachtli). "malacatl" has all short vowels. > John > > On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > Listeros, > > > > Again Canger's Five Studies leads us on the way. She shows that the -oa > > ending comes from earlier -i:wa which means that there must have once been > > a verb pair called *malacachi:wa (transitive) and *malacachiwi > > (intransitive), these could be derived from malaca + chiwa "make/do" > > through a noun incorporation. Malacachtic is obviously derived from the > > verb. > > > > best, > > Magnus > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> From: IDIEZ > >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> Cc: > >> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600 > >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > >> How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, if > >> indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there? > >> John > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. student > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Fri Mar 23 02:46:09 2012 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:46:09 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 254, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MALAKACHTIK: AGUJERO REDONDO, OMOMALACACHOH: SE DIO UN JIRO. MEKATL MALAKACHITIK: CUERDA RETORCIDA MALAKACHIHUI: QUE SE RETUERSE, O QUE ES PROBABLE QUE SUFRA ESE CAMBIO. ININ KUAHUITL MALAKACHIHUI ESTE PALO SE PUEDE RETORCER. BUIEN DIA _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta4 at googlemail.com Fri Mar 23 09:10:57 2012 From: gwhitta4 at googlemail.com (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:10:57 +0100 Subject: moyoma (vs. moyoni) reconsidered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, Your description of the semantic range of yoma is not only very informative but also refreshingly picturesque! Do I understand correctly that the verb in Guerrero Nahuatl has a short o? In Alexis Wimmer's extensive online dictionary the verb is given with long o. I wonder if this is based on an assumption that the verb is analogous to zo:ma (which it isn't)? She gives no source for the long vowel, and I can find nothing that would support her rendition. I find it interesting that the Guerrero verb is transitive (as well as reflexive?), whereas the Valley of Mexico verb seems so far only to occur as a reflexive. With regard to the sexual sense of the verb, which is primary in the Valley of Mexico, do you have any information on whether the reflexive can be used to describe the grinding movement of a woman during intercourse, or is it used in Guerrero only in reference to a man's movements? If you don't have it yet in your files could you check this with your consultants, please? One last thing: You mentioned previously that there's a Guerrero verb te:nmo:moyo:ni. Does anyone in Guerrero know of a compound i:xmo:moyo:ni (or i:xmo'moyo:ni with glottal stop)? Thanks again for all your help and for the fascinating verbal semantics. Best, Gordon P.S. What's the exact translation of the riddle (and its solution)? On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Jonathan Amith wrote: > Dear Gordon, > > I don't know the context of moioma but probably reflexive of yoma. This > refers to a sort of scooping, tangential motion of a dragon/damselfly on > the water, a woman's body as she grinds corn on a metate, and a man's body > as he makes love as God ordained. In fact there is a Nahuatl riddle to this > effect, nochi to:nahli cho tlayoyontok.... (cho is an intensifier). > > Molina has "amblar la mujer" for yoma, nino- > > Best, Jonathan > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 14:12:19 2012 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:12:19 -0400 Subject: moyoma (vs. moyoni) reconsidered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Gordon, Yes, I have it with a short vowel. There are few verbs that really can't be both reflexive and transitive. However, it is important to distinguish between "reflexively marked" and "reflexive" in the semantic/argument sense as a two-participant event where participant 1 and 2 have the same referent. Thus certain verbs of bodily function are marked reflexive. In the Cuetzalan area there is a difference between mihso:ta and moihso:ta, the first refering to 'vomit' nimihso:ta where the second is 'to vomit on oneself'. The transitive use would be with the object that which is vomited (kihso:ta esti or kiihso:ta esti) whereas the causative would be 'to provoke vomiting in' (ne:chihso:taltia 'it provokes vomiting in me'). So, the reflexive use of yoma or yohyoma would probably refer to a bodily motion. The verb tlalowa / talowa is also reflexively marked and cannot take an object (motalowa, 'to run') but I do not think ?kitalowa. cf. kitalo:chtia, 'to incite to run' or something to that effect). Molina, I believe (don't have it here right now) has yoyoma as a reflexively marked verb, with the meaning refering to 'albar la mujer' (if I remember). It might be that in Guerrero the use with ki- is innovative. I didn't remember correctly but the riddle (see below) uses the reflexively marked noyoyontok (no- is the reflexive marker) The use of the reflexive marker is documented from a riddle and the sexually ambiguous reference to 'metate' and 'woman' as the subject is problematic in the sense that the reflexive marker would probably have slightly different implications. The reflexive marker use in Balsas Nahuatl is really at times difficult. It can be a detransitivizer (e.g., notsakua, refering a a wound that is healing/closing up) or it can be a passive-like construction (mo:stla nochi:was 'tomorrow it will get done'). The 3rd person plural can also be used, though it would seem to indicate less involvement of the speaker: ke:hchi:was(k)eh which with a nonspecific agent would be similar to 'it will be fixed/they (unspecific) will fix it'. Ne:hchi:was could be either 'it will get fixed (e.g., something that fixes itself) or 'it will get fixed' (something for which speaker takes some responsibility, sort of like 'I'll see to it that it gets fixed'. So the use of the reflexive in the riddle (noyoyontok) would seem to guide the listener to a more off-color interpretation as either the woman as the subject of a verb indicating bodily motion or as an object for which the speaker (in this case the teller of the riddle) is taking some "responsbility" for the event occurring. I have always heard yoma as having as its object that which is struck in the manner indicated (water, metate, woman). The name of the dragonfly in Ameyaltepec is a:yoyontsi:n, which I always took to refer to the type of motion it performs on the surface of the water. In Oapan it is ?abi?:ntsi:n which would be 'toy airplane' from the reduplicated Spanish borrowing. It might be that this is the result of a "folk etymology' a:yoyontsi:n > ?abi?:ntsi:n. I similar switch occurred with a plant name for Calliandra houstoniana. In one village in the eastern Balsas valley it is called kahkabai:toh "toy horse". The name is only explaining in comparing it to other more western villages: kabai:toh de a:ngel (angel's horse'). The Spanish name is 'cabello de ?ngel'. So 'cabello' was reinterpreted as 'caballo' and then in one village the Spanish 'de ?ngel' was dropped and the noun reduplicated to indicate a metaphoric extension/play. It might be that Oapan ?abi?:ntsi:n, therefore, is not simply the result of equating the dragonfly with an airplane, but in a folk change of a:yoyontsi:n. \ref 02913 \lxam yoyoma \lxam_c kiyoyoma \lxoa y?yom? \lxoa_pr yoyoma \lxoa_c k?:yom? \psm V2 \infv class-3a(m) \der V2-b \lexical Op. prefix te- \pitch yes \sense_e (reduplicated with a long or short vowel, depending on the circumstances) to skim against in a curved motion, skimming against the surface of the object at the bottom of the curve (note: the prototypical motion of this sort is that made by a woman grinding nextamahli on a metate) \sense_s (con reduplicaci?n de vocal larga o corta, dependiendo de las circumstancias) pegar rozando con una moci?n encorvada (rozando la superficie del objeto al punto m?s bajo de la curva; el ejemplo protot?pico de esta acci?n es la de una mujer moliendo nixtamal sobre un metate) \sense_d Am \phrase_n Tlateyo:yontok ipan a:tl a:yoyontsi:n. \phrase_d Am \phrase_e The dragonfly skims against the surface of the water. \phrase_s La lib?lula pasa rozando sobre la superficie del agua. \phrase_n Yo:li:k kiteyo:yontok imetl, xnotlasiwi:tia. \phrase_d Am \phrase_e She is slowly pushing down again and again against her metate, she's not in any hurry. \phrase_s Despacio empuja y empuja contra su metate, no se apura. \sense_e (fig.) to have sexual intercourse with (a man [S] with a woman [O] based on the type of motion involved) \sense_s (fig.) tener relaciones sexuales con (un hombre [S] con una mujer [O] basado en el tipo de moci?n utilizado) \sense_d Pending \phrase_n Kiyo:yoma isuwa:w. \phrase_d Am \phrase_e He has sex with his wife. \phrase_s Tiene relaciones sexuales con su esposa. \sem motion \root yoma \nsem The action indicated by yoma has only been documented in the three types of motion noted above: a dragonfly against water, a woman grinding on a metate, and a man having intercourse with a woman. Because of the latter, this word is often used in double entendres, as in the riddle Se: tosa:sa:ne:l, se: tosa:sa:ne:l, se: tona:na:tsi:n, san nochipa noyoyontok 'Una adivinanza, una adivinanza: A una se?ora, siempre la estar?n fregando (es el metate).' In Oapan yoma, which is only found reduplicated with either long or short vowel, only has a sexual sense, referring to the action of the male in mounting a female (in reference to human intercourse and that of donkeys, dogs, pigs, and other similar animals). \qry Determine difference and if both are possible: /yo:yoma/ and /yoyoma/. \revised 25/May/2007 On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > Your description of the semantic range of yoma is not only very > informative but also refreshingly picturesque! > > Do I understand correctly that the verb in Guerrero Nahuatl has a short o? > In Alexis Wimmer's extensive online dictionary the verb is given with long > o. I wonder if this is based on an assumption that the verb is analogous to > zo:ma (which it isn't)? She gives no source for the long vowel, and I can > find nothing that would support her rendition. > > I find it interesting that the Guerrero verb is transitive (as well as > reflexive?), whereas the Valley of Mexico verb seems so far only to occur > as a reflexive. > > With regard to the sexual sense of the verb, which is primary in the > Valley of Mexico, do you have any information on whether the reflexive can > be used to describe the grinding movement of a woman during intercourse, or > is it used in Guerrero only in reference to a man's movements? If you don't > have it yet in your files could you check this with your consultants, > please? > > One last thing: You mentioned previously that there's a Guerrero verb > te:nmo:moyo:ni. Does anyone in Guerrero know of a compound i:xmo:moyo:ni > (or i:xmo'moyo:ni with glottal stop)? > > Thanks again for all your help and for the fascinating verbal semantics. > > Best, > Gordon > > P.S. What's the exact translation of the riddle (and its solution)? > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Jonathan Amith wrote: > >> Dear Gordon, >> >> I don't know the context of moioma but probably reflexive of yoma. This >> refers to a sort of scooping, tangential motion of a dragon/damselfly on >> the water, a woman's body as she grinds corn on a metate, and a man's body >> as he makes love as God ordained. In fact there is a Nahuatl riddle to this >> effect, nochi to:nahli cho tlayoyontok.... (cho is an intensifier). >> >> Molina has "amblar la mujer" for yoma, nino- >> >> Best, Jonathan >> >> > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 15:02:01 2012 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:02:01 -0400 Subject: moyoma (vs. moyoni) reconsidered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, I forgot, i:xmoyo:nwetska to lightly smile, somethinig like 'dibuj?rsele [a alguien] una sonrisa en la cara'. I imagine the i:xmoyo:n- refers to the very subtle facial movement. On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:10 AM, Gordon Whittaker wrote: > Dear Nahuatl(@lists.famsi.org)aca, > > Not long after clicking on Send to submit my last post on yomo:ni vs. > moyo:ni I realized that I should have gotten a little more sleep before > writing it. While rereading the post I noticed that I had completely > overlooked the obvious fact that Sahag?n's and are not > odd cognates of moyo:ni (and yomo:ni) but rather simple reflexives with > prefixed mo-. Oops! So my comment "What is interesting here is the fact > that the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the > first. " is not interesting at all, because the verb stem is actually > , not (in the Florentine's orthography). > > I stand by the other remarks and comparisons made, concerning the > relationship between Molina's and . The metathesis of > moyo:ni to yomo:ni, if that is what has happened, may have been facilitated > by the existence of the verb mo-yoma (for which I have not yet found > attestations with long o), given its semantics. > > Best wishes, > Gordon > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:42:59 +0100 >> From: Gordon Whittaker >> To: t_amaya at megared.net.mx >> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] yomo:ni vs. moyo:ni -- a metathetical >> relationship? >> Message-ID: >> > mth4OL7AJyjYh+KiukA at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Tomastzine, >> >> Many thanks for your valuable comments! A couple of days before receiving >> your mail I had been communicating with Jonathan Amith on and he >> remarked that it "sounds sounds something like moyo:ni, which is used for >> the agitated movement of disturbed insects" in Guerrero Nahuatl. That got >> me thinking about the possibility that might just be a local or >> regional metathetical variant of the well-attested moyo:ni. >> >> So I checked Molina and this is what I came up with: >> >> Moyoni. bullir las hormigas gusanos o cosa semejante. >> [...] >> Yomoni. bullir los gusanos, o piojos, pulgas, hormigas, o cosas >> semejantes, o dar mucha comezon los granos o la serna, o tener gran >> encendimiento de la carne los mozos o mozas luxuriosas. >> Yoyomiquiliztli. comezon. >> Yoyomoca. ni. tener comezon. >> Yoyomoctli. los ri?ones. >> >> I think the striking similarity between the first two entries strongly >> suggests not only a semantic but also a morphological/genetic relationship >> between the two verbs. >> >> So then I checked the Florentine Codex, and this is what I found in Bk. >> 10, >> Ch. 27, Par. 12 (p. 131 in Dibble and Anderson): >> >> *Testis Joiomoctli: * >> [...] >> it moves lasciviously moioma, >> both move lasciviously moi?ioma, >> it stirs iomonj, >> it swoons with lasciviousness i?ionmjquj, >> [...] >> >> Sahag?n's juxtaposition of these verbs again suggests a close semantic, if >> not morphological, relationship. I suspect that might refer >> to >> making faces by rolling the eyes and twitching the face. The of >> Sahag?n >> is likely to be o + glottal stop. What is interesting here is the fact >> that >> the second syllable of , /yo/, gets reduplicated, not the first. >> So >> in both these verbs, and , we have a reduplicated >> /yo'/ (with glottal stop). The verbs with initial /yo/ are likely to be >> local or regional variants hailing from Mexico and/or Tetzcoco and >> environs. Cf. also the dynastic name Yoyontli. >> >> Tom?s, your information on similar verbs in Chachahuantla and Cuetzalan, >> especially on ixmomoyoni (for i:xmo:moyo:ni, with the first o vowel long?) >> and ixmohmoyoni, is, I think, confirmation of this hypothesis. It would be >> interesting to know if the same compounds turn up elsewhere. Thanks so >> much >> for your very useful comments. Cenca' nimitztlazo'ca:mati! ?brigens, Dein >> Deutsch ist bewundernswert. Ich w?nschte mir, meins w?re so gut! >> >> I am also very grateful to Jonathan Amith, John Sullivan and to the >> contributors to the totlahtol list for their thought-provoking comments >> and >> data. >> >> Best wishes, >> Gordon >> > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From gwhitta4 at googlemail.com Sat Mar 24 19:21:05 2012 From: gwhitta4 at googlemail.com (Gordon Whittaker) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:21:05 +0100 Subject: i:xmoyo:n- vs. i:xyomo:n- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, This is very encouraging! Now we would appear to have the missing piece in the puzzle regarding moyo:ni and yomo:ni. The former is widespread, the latter restricted as a variant to the Valley of Mexico. The fact that the compound with i:x- is also attested for both, and in each case describing facial movement, underscores the likelihood that the two verbs are related, and that the forms with yom- are secondary. Thanks a lot for this very helpful material. Best wishes, Gordon Sent from my iPad On 23/03/2012, at 4:02 PM, Jonathan Amith wrote: > Oh, I forgot, > > i:xmoyo:nwetska to lightly smile, somethinig like 'dibuj?rsele [a alguien] una sonrisa en la cara'. I imagine the i:xmoyo:n- refers to the very subtle facial movement. > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From yekeus at gmail.com Sat Mar 24 22:09:49 2012 From: yekeus at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Javier_Jim=E9nez?=) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:09:49 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 254, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Piahlih MALAKATXTIK: GIRADO(adjetivo) O MO MALAKATXOH: SE (EL) GIRO MEKATL MALAKATXIOHTIK: CUERDA GIRADA MALAKATXIOIH: GIRA(presente) I NIN KOAOITL MALAKATXIOIH: ESTA MADERA GIRA AGUJERO REDONDO: COIOKTLI IEHOALTIK MALAKATXOH: GIRO(ROTAR) MAHLINAH: GIRO(PROPOSITO DE MODFICAR EL OBJETO) IEHOAHLOH: GIRAR(ALREDEDOR) Onkan zeh kikpah El 23/03/2012 06:24, "Jacinto Acatecatl" escribi?: > > MALAKACHTIK: AGUJERO REDONDO, > OMOMALACACHOH: SE DIO UN JIRO. > MEKATL MALAKACHITIK: CUERDA RETORCIDA > MALAKACHIHUI: QUE SE RETUERSE, O QUE ES PROBABLE QUE SUFRA ESE CAMBIO. > ININ KUAHUITL MALAKACHIHUI ESTE PALO SE PUEDE RETORCER. > > BUIEN DIA > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 18:11:28 2012 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:11:28 -0400 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa Message-ID: Listeros, I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting question. It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables (described in Canger 1980). Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a previous suffix -*?o/?a*- which she reconstructs as meaning "frecuentative". An example /kwekwe?oa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). We also know that frequently Nahuatl / ? / comes from proto-Uto-Aztecan *? before the high central vowel *?. This makes it probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*??/. This could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if the intransitive form was /*?i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the transitive /*??/ which would lead to -*choa *through **?iwa*. If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived from a previous /*malaka-??-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the nominal form /*malaka-??-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-??-wi/. This suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly from *malacachoa *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. student Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Mar 26 20:50:41 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:50:41 -0600 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Piyali Magnus, But malacatl has no long vowels, and malacachtli has a long initial a (ma:lacachtli). John On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Listeros, > > I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being > derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive > denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does > seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the > relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting > question. > > It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way > that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - > probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- > between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. > > We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the > remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule > that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables > (described in Canger 1980). > > Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a > previous suffix -*?o/?a*- which she reconstructs as meaning > "frecuentative". An example /kwekwe?oa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa > *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an > intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * > chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to > whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for > example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to > fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to > rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not > readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share > derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any > attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). > > We also know that frequently Nahuatl / ? / comes from > proto-Uto-Aztecan *? before the high central vowel *?. This makes it > probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*??/. This > could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if > the intransitive form was /*?i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually > -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the > transitive /*??/ which would lead to -*choa *through **?iwa*. > > If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived > from a previous /*malaka-??-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the > nominal form /*malaka-??-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-??-wi/. This > suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly > from *malacachoa > *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same > etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a > historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. > > > *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. student > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Mar 26 22:06:27 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:06:27 -0600 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quena Vic, Huan Delfina quicuamachilia quence macehualli tlen quipiya iixxayac chipactic. Vic, ?queniuhqui ticcaqui nopa "a" tlen achtohui? ?Huehueyac zo cuecuetztzin? ?i:xma:lacachtic zo i:xmalacachtic? John On Mar 26, 2012, at 4:01 PM, De la Cruz wrote: > > > Ce tlamanextilli. > > Ixmalacachtic. Macehualli, tlapiyalli zo tecuani tlen quipiya iixayac yahualtic... > > > > Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' > > Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz > New-Phone: 5548657687 > > > > > From: idiez at me.com > > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:50:41 -0600 > > To: magnuspharao at gmail.com > > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa > > > > Piyali Magnus, > > But malacatl has no long vowels, and malacachtli has a long initial a (ma:lacachtli). > > John > > > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > > > Listeros, > > > > > > I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being > > > derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive > > > denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does > > > seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the > > > relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting > > > question. > > > > > > It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way > > > that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - > > > probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- > > > between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. > > > > > > We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the > > > remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule > > > that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables > > > (described in Canger 1980). > > > > > > Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a > > > previous suffix -*?o/?a*- which she reconstructs as meaning > > > "frecuentative". An example /kwekwe?oa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa > > > *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an > > > intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * > > > chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to > > > whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for > > > example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to > > > fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to > > > rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not > > > readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share > > > derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any > > > attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). > > > > > > We also know that frequently Nahuatl / ? / comes from > > > proto-Uto-Aztecan *? before the high central vowel *?. This makes it > > > probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*??/. This > > > could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if > > > the intransitive form was /*?i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually > > > -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the > > > transitive /*??/ which would lead to -*choa *through **?iwa*. > > > > > > If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived > > > from a previous /*malaka-??-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the > > > nominal form /*malaka-??-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-??-wi/. This > > > suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly > > > from *malacachoa > > > *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same > > > etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a > > > historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. > > > > > > > > > *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm > > > > > > -- > > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > > PhD. student > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > Brown University > > > 128 Hope St. > > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 26 22:01:05 2012 From: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com (De la Cruz) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:01:05 +0000 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa In-Reply-To: <8819983C-73B9-4998-BADF-EC4B50A13F03@me.com> Message-ID: Ce tlamanextilli. Ixmalacachtic. Macehualli, tlapiyalli zo tecuani tlen quipiya iixayac yahualtic... Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz New-Phone: 5548657687 > From: idiez at me.com > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:50:41 -0600 > To: magnuspharao at gmail.com > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa > > Piyali Magnus, > But malacatl has no long vowels, and malacachtli has a long initial a (ma:lacachtli). > John > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > Listeros, > > > > I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being > > derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive > > denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does > > seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the > > relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting > > question. > > > > It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way > > that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - > > probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- > > between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. > > > > We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the > > remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule > > that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables > > (described in Canger 1980). > > > > Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a > > previous suffix -*?o/?a*- which she reconstructs as meaning > > "frecuentative". An example /kwekwe?oa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa > > *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an > > intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * > > chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to > > whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for > > example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to > > fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to > > rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not > > readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share > > derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any > > attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). > > > > We also know that frequently Nahuatl / ? / comes from > > proto-Uto-Aztecan *? before the high central vowel *?. This makes it > > probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*??/. This > > could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if > > the intransitive form was /*?i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually > > -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the > > transitive /*??/ which would lead to -*choa *through **?iwa*. > > > > If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived > > from a previous /*malaka-??-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the > > nominal form /*malaka-??-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-??-wi/. This > > suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly > > from *malacachoa > > *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same > > etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a > > historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. > > > > > > *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. student > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Mar 27 00:18:15 2012 From: idiez at me.com (IDIEZ) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 18:18:15 -0600 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Axcanah tlan moixpa. John On Mar 26, 2012, at 5:32 PM, De la Cruz wrote: > > > > > Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' > > Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz > New-Phone: 5548657687 > > Caquizti: i:xma:lacachtic > > huan axcanah niccuamachilia tlan quipiya iixxayac chipactic. Quipiya iixxayac yahualtic. > > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa > From: idiez at me.com > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:06:27 -0600 > CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > To: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com > > Quena Vic, > Huan Delfina quicuamachilia quence macehualli tlen quipiya iixxayac chipactic. > Vic, ?queniuhqui ticcaqui nopa "a" tlen achtohui? ?Huehueyac zo cuecuetztzin? ?i:xma:lacachtic zo i:xmalacachtic? > John > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 4:01 PM, De la Cruz wrote: > > > > Ce tlamanextilli. > > Ixmalacachtic. Macehualli, tlapiyalli zo tecuani tlen quipiya iixayac yahualtic... > > > > Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' > > Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz > New-Phone: 5548657687 > > > > > From: idiez at me.com > > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:50:41 -0600 > > To: magnuspharao at gmail.com > > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa > > > > Piyali Magnus, > > But malacatl has no long vowels, and malacachtli has a long initial a (ma:lacachtli). > > John > > > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > > > Listeros, > > > > > > I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being > > > derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive > > > denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does > > > seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the > > > relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting > > > question. > > > > > > It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way > > > that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - > > > probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- > > > between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. > > > > > > We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the > > > remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule > > > that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables > > > (described in Canger 1980). > > > > > > Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a > > > previous suffix -*?o/?a*- which she reconstructs as meaning > > > "frecuentative". An example /kwekwe?oa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa > > > *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an > > > intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * > > > chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to > > > whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for > > > example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to > > > fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to > > > rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not > > > readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share > > > derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any > > > attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). > > > > > > We also know that frequently Nahuatl / ? / comes from > > > proto-Uto-Aztecan *? before the high central vowel *?. This makes it > > > probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*??/. This > > > could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if > > > the intransitive form was /*?i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually > > > -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the > > > transitive /*??/ which would lead to -*choa *through **?iwa*. > > > > > > If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived > > > from a previous /*malaka-??-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the > > > nominal form /*malaka-??-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-??-wi/. This > > > suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly > > > from *malacachoa > > > *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same > > > etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a > > > historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. > > > > > > > > > *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm > > > > > > -- > > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > > PhD. student > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > Brown University > > > 128 Hope St. > > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 26 23:32:05 2012 From: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com (De la Cruz) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 23:32:05 +0000 Subject: Malacachtli/malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz New-Phone: 5548657687 Caquizti: i:xma:lacachtic huan axcanah niccuamachilia tlan quipiya iixxayac chipactic. Quipiya iixxayac yahualtic. Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa From: idiez at me.com Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:06:27 -0600 CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com Quena Vic, Huan Delfina quicuamachilia quence macehualli tlen quipiya iixxayac chipactic. Vic, ?queniuhqui ticcaqui nopa "a" tlen achtohui? ?Huehueyac zo cuecuetztzin? ?i:xma:lacachtic zo i:xmalacachtic?John On Mar 26, 2012, at 4:01 PM, De la Cruz wrote: Ce tlamanextilli. Ixmalacachtic. Macehualli, tlapiyalli zo tecuani tlen quipiya iixayac yahualtic... Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca' Victoriano de la Cruz CruzNew-Phone: 5548657687 > From: idiez at me.com > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:50:41 -0600 > To: magnuspharao at gmail.com > CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Malacachtli/malacachoa > > Piyali Magnus, > But malacatl has no long vowels, and malacachtli has a long initial a (ma:lacachtli). > John > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > Listeros, > > > > I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of the *malacachoa *being > > derived from *malacachtli*. I had forgotten that -*oa *was used to derive > > denominal verbs in classical Nahuatl (Launey 1986 pp. 958-959*). It does > > seem to be the simplest explanation. However, that does not explain the > > relation between *malacachtli *and *malacatl,* which is another interesting > > question. > > > > It seems to me that here the most logical solution is to look for a way > > that *malacachtli *and *malacatl *derives historically from a single root - > > probably /**malaka*/.The question then becomes what is the root of the -*ch*- > > between the root and the absolutive suffix in the form *malaca-ch-tli*. > > > > We know that Proto-Nahuan only had CV syllables, so the -ch- must be the > > remnant of a CV syllable that was reduced by the general accent shift rule > > that reduced the penultimate syllable of words with more than two syllables > > (described in Canger 1980). > > > > Dakin (1982:96) derives a number of verbs in -*choa *from forms with a > > previous suffix -*?o/?a*- which she reconstructs as meaning > > "frecuentative". An example /kwekwe?oa/ "to make tremble" and *chachacuachoa > > *"to make rough (splattered?). Interestingly both of these have an > > intransitive counterpart with -tz- /kwekwetzoa/ "to tremble" and * > > chachacuatza *"to splatter mud", and so does *ma:pi:choa */ *ma:pi:tza *"to > > whistle with ones hand". There are other examples of pairs with tz/ch for > > example *cinhuechtli *"volunteer maize" from *cin *"maize" and *huetzi *"to > > fall", and *cacalachtli *"rattle" that seems related to *cacalatza "*to > > rattle". There are also odd pairs like *patla:wa/patlachtik* that are not > > readily analyzable as derivations of each other - they must also share > > derivational histories from a single root somehow (do we have any > > attestations of a verb *patlatza*?). > > > > We also know that frequently Nahuatl / ? / comes from > > proto-Uto-Aztecan *? before the high central vowel *?. This makes it > > probable that the syllable from which the -ch- is derived was /*??/. This > > could explain the Intransitive -*tza/tzoa* - transitive -*choa *pairs, if > > the intransitive form was /*?i/ (which would lead to -tziwa and eventually > > -tzoa (following the path laid out by Canger 1980)) and the > > transitive /*??/ which would lead to -*choa *through **?iwa*. > > > > If, following this reasoning, we were to posit that *malachoa *was derived > > from a previous /*malaka-??-wa/ then *malakachtli *would come from the > > nominal form /*malaka-??-ta/ and *malacachihui *from /*malaka-??-wi/. This > > suggests that while it is possible to derive *malacachtli *directly > > from *malacachoa > > *- it is equally possible that both historically derived from the same > > etymon and not directly synchronically from each other. By positing a > > historical derivation we solve the issue of the *malacachtli/malacatl*pair. > > > > > > *http://celia.cnrs.fr/FichExt/Etudes/Launey/tm.htm > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. student > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Wed Mar 28 03:04:38 2012 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:04:38 -0600 Subject: Malacachoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Friends, tocnihuan: My explanation comes, again, from words and forms used, spoken, in the region of Cuetzalan Puebla. Why not to take first the word "mallacat"? We can divide the word into mall and acat. Mall(a)(i) sounds for me as being related to the idea of rotating, spinning, twisting. Remember: malina, malinalli. Therefore we can think that mallacatl is no other thing but a stick that spins, that rotates. Just like spindle in English and Spindel in German. The translation of both words in Spanish ist not other but HUSO and this one is precisely the Spanish translation for malacat. For me, we can derivate from malacat the word malacachoa, where the t becomes ch. Also the word malacachihui can have the same origin. Malacachti (malacachtli) may mean ?what has been rotated? e.g. a coil. Malacachtic: something whose form comes from being rotated, i.e. rounded. There is another word, the verbal form tayehualoya, vel. tlayahualoya. It is related with ?describing circles? Therefrom we have: Tayehualtic, vel tlayohualtic: round Tayehual, vel. tlayahualli; a circle. Related to this, we have e.g. the word: Santotayehualtiliz(ti): to carry a Saint in Procession (to make circles with him in front of the church) Rememeber ?Primeros Memoriales? ioa[n] tlayavaloloya, auh in tlalloca vevetqz teyacanaya valtenanamictivia ynic tlayavaloloya : quiqueq[ue]chpanotihvi y[n] inteteuh. My translation: and they walked describing circles. The old Tlaloc?s people met face to face every people while walking in circle. They were carrying their deities on their shoulders around their necks (while walking in circles). Niamechyoltlapalohua. Tomas Amaya El 22 de marzo de 2012 17:55, IDIEZ escribi?: > Magnus, > So taking malacachihui/malacachoa, etc., as an example, what is the > verb of origin and how does it get to malacachtli? > John > > On Mar 22, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > My basic point that i keep trying to get across on the list is that it > is necessary to take into account the phonological and morphological > history of words when making etymologies. Very few of the people making > etymologies here use anything more than Nahuatl dictionaries to do so - > this is a shame because there is a lot of very good literature such as > Canger and Dakin's historical studies that show what kinds of derivations > are probable and possible and which aren't. This seems to me to be a clear > example of this where we know something about the history of affixes and > roots, which doesn't support the existence of a noun ma:lacachtli prior to > the verb ma:lacachoa/malacachihui, but rather derved from it. > > > > best, > > Magnus > > > > On 22 March 2012 18:04, Magnus Pharao Hansen > wrote: > > John, I know there are those two nouns, I was explaining that they both > historically come from the same verb form. I don't believe theycome from a > noun malacachtli rather the noun malacachtli would have to come form the > verbs historically. Malacachti would be the causative forms of the > intransitive one of those, and yes the malacachtic adjective form would be > derived from it - but they all come from original *ma:lacachiwa. I short I > believe you are deriving the wrong way by going from noun to verb - rather > inNahuatl it is almost always the case thatnouns are derived frm verbs and > in this case there is compelling indicia that this is the case. > > > > You cannot derive it with malacach + ihui that suffix doesn't exist > historicall but are two different suffices with different histories. The > -wa/-wi is an historical ending the i is part of the precceding suffix. > > > > best > > Magnus > > > > > > On 22 March 2012 17:25, IDIEZ wrote: > > Magnus, > > In fact there is a ma:lacachihui and ma:lacachoa:. And what Una > says makes sense. But you would have to start with an initial noun > ma:lacachtli. This would be turned into a verb in two ways. One would be > ma:lacachti (adding the verber "-ti") or ma:lacachtiya (adding both verbers > "-ti" and "-ya"). The preterite form of either one would be ma:lacachtic > and it would simultaneously work as an adjective/adverb. The other route > would be to add the verber "-ihui" to the base noun, producing > ma:lacachihui. The causative of this form would be ma:lacachoa: > (originally, ma:lacachihua, like Una says). However, the "ch" is part of > the original noun stem, not the beginning of "chihui>chihua". And I just > noticed today that the root noun has a long "a" (ma:lacachtli). "malacatl" > has all short vowels. > > John > > > > On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > > > > > Listeros, > > > > > > Again Canger's Five Studies leads us on the way. She shows that the -oa > > > ending comes from earlier -i:wa which means that there must have once > been > > > a verb pair called *malacachi:wa (transitive) and *malacachiwi > > > (intransitive), these could be derived from malaca + chiwa "make/do" > > > through a noun incorporation. Malacachtic is obviously derived from the > > > verb. > > > > > > best, > > > Magnus > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> From: IDIEZ > > >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> Cc: > > >> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600 > > >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa > > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > > >> How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, > if > > >> indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there? > > >> John > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > > PhD. student > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > Brown University > > > 128 Hope St. > > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. student > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > > > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. student > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl