From idiez at me.com  Tue Dec  3 04:36:05 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 22:36:05 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <CAEj69cx_eCQ4OeHHik4mMDRPJJCwzz2Pn0vTeGAJrHKpdHViZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2013.223605.0600.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Magnus,
	First of all, do you or anyone on the list have a .pdf of Canger’s book, or know where I can download it?
	Now for my question. If the -oa verber originates as -iwa, why does the preterite forms reduce to -oh?
Best,
John

On Nov 22, 2013, at 14:26, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi John,
> 
> As for -oa, Canger's 1980 book "Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in -oa" studies the history of this form in detail. What is now /oa/ comes originally from verbs in -iwa, where the iw became o. The use of the -oa as a general verbalizing ending was then created by analogy with the new verbforms, that is why it doesn't "look like a Nahuatl morpheme". 
> 
> best,
> Magnus

>  
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
> 
> Brown University                          
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
> 

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec  3 12:22:51 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:22:51 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <5B4D7272-F0FA-4885-92FD-13D9CC8047D6@me.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2013.072251.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Uh...that's what verbs ending in -oa do.


Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:

> Magnus,
> 	First of all, do you or anyone on the list have a .pdf of Canger's
> book, or know where I can download it?
> 	Now for my question. If the -oa verber originates as -iwa, why does
> the preterite forms reduce to -oh?
> Best,
> John
>
> On Nov 22, 2013, at 14:26, Magnus Pharao Hansen
> <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> As for -oa, Canger's 1980 book "Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in
>> -oa" studies the history of this form in detail. What is now /oa/
>> comes originally from verbs in -iwa, where the iw became o. The use
>> of the -oa as a general verbalizing ending was then created by
>> analogy with the new verbforms, that is why it doesn't "look like a
>> Nahuatl morpheme".
>>
>> best,
>> Magnus
>
>>
>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>> PhD. candidate
>> Department of Anthropology
>>
>> Brown University
>> 128 Hope St.
>> Providence, RI 02906
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From idiez at me.com  Wed Dec  4 00:19:10 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 18:19:10 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <20131203072251.o95xbb37k00k848s@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2013.181910.0600.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Michael,
	Yes, but not if the origin of -oa is -iwa. For -oa to go to -oh in the preterite its origina would have to be -ota, with the -ta being either a berber or a valence-adder.
John

On Dec 3, 2013, at 6:22, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> 
> 
> Uh...that's what verbs ending in -oa do.
> 
> 
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> 
>> Magnus,
>> 	First of all, do you or anyone on the list have a .pdf of Canger's
>> book, or know where I can download it?
>> 	Now for my question. If the -oa verber originates as -iwa, why does
>> the preterite forms reduce to -oh?
>> Best,
>> John
>> 
>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 14:26, Magnus Pharao Hansen
>> <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi John,
>>> 
>>> As for -oa, Canger's 1980 book "Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in
>>> -oa" studies the history of this form in detail. What is now /oa/
>>> comes originally from verbs in -iwa, where the iw became o. The use
>>> of the -oa as a general verbalizing ending was then created by
>>> analogy with the new verbforms, that is why it doesn't "look like a
>>> Nahuatl morpheme".
>>> 
>>> best,
>>> Magnus
>> 
>>> 
>>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>>> PhD. candidate
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 
>>> Brown University
>>> 128 Hope St.
>>> Providence, RI 02906
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 19:05:05 2013
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 13:05:05 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 319, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1386180002.13932.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2013.130505.0600.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

No, John, -t- is not the only source of h in modern Nahuatl.



From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
To: Mccafferty Michael <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Cc: list nahuatl discussion <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:19:10 -0600
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1
Michael,
        Yes, but not if the origin of -oa is -iwa. For -oa to go to -oh in
the preterite its origina would have to be -ota, with the -ta being either
a berber or a valence-adder.
John


On 4 December 2013 12:00, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:

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>    1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1 (John Sullivan)
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>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: Mccafferty Michael <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> Cc: list nahuatl discussion <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:19:10 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1
> Michael,
>         Yes, but not if the origin of -oa is -iwa. For -oa to go to -oh in
> the preterite its origina would have to be -ota, with the -ta being either
> a berber or a valence-adder.
> John
>
> On Dec 3, 2013, at 6:22, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Uh...that's what verbs ending in -oa do.
> >
> >
> > Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> >
> >> Magnus,
> >>      First of all, do you or anyone on the list have a .pdf of Canger's
> >> book, or know where I can download it?
> >>      Now for my question. If the -oa verber originates as -iwa, why does
> >> the preterite forms reduce to -oh?
> >> Best,
> >> John
> >>
> >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 14:26, Magnus Pharao Hansen
> >> <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi John,
> >>>
> >>> As for -oa, Canger's 1980 book "Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in
> >>> -oa" studies the history of this form in detail. What is now /oa/
> >>> comes originally from verbs in -iwa, where the iw became o. The use
> >>> of the -oa as a general verbalizing ending was then created by
> >>> analogy with the new verbforms, that is why it doesn't "look like a
> >>> Nahuatl morpheme".
> >>>
> >>> best,
> >>> Magnus
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> >>> PhD. candidate
> >>> Department of Anthropology
> >>>
> >>> Brown University
> >>> 128 Hope St.
> >>> Providence, RI 02906
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nahuatl mailing list
> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From tezozomoc at hotmail.com  Fri Dec  6 23:54:41 2013
From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 15:54:41 -0800
Subject: Molina's Lost Soul.....
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2013.155441.0800.TEZOZOMOC@HOTMAIL.COM>

In the 
Nahuatl to Spanish side of Molina's dictionary we read: "Teyolia. el alma, o 
anima." But, did we believe in a soul?  On the 
surface, teyoliatl looks like a noun. If we try to break it down we get teyoli 
and atl, ATL, water. So we say "okay, it's some kind of water". 

yoli 
looks like the verb YOLi, to live. So now we think it must some how be related 
to aguas vivas, and te must be TE, some one, people. 

But yoli 
cannot be YOLi because YOLi is intransitive and cannot take, the object 
TE. 
We could 
say teyoli is TEYOLiH, the preterit of TEYOLiA, to make some one live. 

But verbs 
are connected to nouns by CA. So we should expect TEYOLiHCAATL We're way off! 
Besides, life is YOLiZTLi. Let's take a different approach. 

What if 
it's not a noun? What if it's a verb disguised as a noun? 
If we 
remove the noun marker we're left with teyolia. This looks like a transitive 
verb YoLiA or YOLiA, with the nonspecific human object TE. 
I haven't 
come upon such a verb. But there are many i/iA verb pairs (aQUi/aQUiA, 
OLINi/OLINiA, iHUiNTi/iHUiNTiA, etc). 

So, we 
could say there might be a pair YOLi/YOLiA. Then, TEYOLiA would meen "it makes 
people live". And, TEYOLiATL would be the thing that makes people live. 

That's 
not how you nominalize verbs. If there was a verb YOLiA, we'd get 4 agentive 
nouns: TEYOLiHQUi, TEYOLiANi, TEYOLIZQUi, and YOLIZTLi. But not 
TEYOLiATL. 

In the 
Spanish to Nahuatl section of Molina's dictionary we read: "Alma o anima. 
teyolia, teyolitia, teanima." 

teyolia 
would be TEYOLiA, he/she makes make people live. But not even Molina has a verb 
YOLiA. 

And don't 
even think teyolia could be someone's YOLiA, 'cause this would be 
TEYOLiAUH. 
teyolitia 
is TEYOLITiA, he/she makes people live. YOLi has 2 causative forms: YOLiLTiA and 
YOLITiA. But not YOLiA. 

teanima 
is a Spanish/Nahuatl hybrid. It'd meen someone's soul.The use of Spanish anima 
indicates this is a foreign concept. 

The 
frailes used Spanhuatl for foreign things. Like peral quauitl, pear tree; hicox, 
fig; tiox, god; angelotin, angels; colos, cross; etc. 

All the 
early grammarians were frailes. That's why we find alma, confesion, pecado, 
fiesta de guardar, bautismo, salvacion, dios, etc. 

We have 
to consider that some terms may have been coined to answer como se dice esto o 
aquello. 

Simeon 
also has teyoliatl. But he based his dictionary on Molina's. 

Bierhorst 
doesn't have it. Which meens it's not used in the Cantares. Karttunen doesn't 
have it either. Which meens she couldn't make sense of it. 

"Ex Nihilo"
It seems, 
at least to me, that teyoliatl is a word invented to name something the friars 
were describing. 
The 
foreignness of the concept is reflected in its ungrammatical construction. 


>From Ruben Ramirez "Huitzilmazatzin"




  		 	   		  
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Sat Dec  7 02:20:29 2013
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 21:20:29 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl soul
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2013.212029.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

I would suggest that you read Jill Leslie McKeever Furst's _The Natural
History of the Soul in Ancient America_ Yale, 1997

She analyzes all of these options and discusses it in depth.


-- 
John F. Schwaller
Professor,
University at Albany
1400 Washington Ave.
Albany, NY 12222


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From campbel at indiana.edu  Sat Dec  7 04:24:37 2013
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 23:24:37 -0500
Subject: Molina's Lost Soul.....
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2013.232437.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Mr. Tezozomoctzin ihuan occequi nocnihuan,

   This message gives me hope that Nahuat-l can and may function as a 
forum for discussing problems about Nahuatl, particularly word 
formation ( |8-) ).

   First, the word "teyoiatl".  My guess is that this an addition by 
Simeon, and as you hint, not in Molina.  Although Simeon based his 
dictionary mainly on Molina, he *did* add words, and my suspicion is 
that he formed "teyoliatl" to "teyolia" on the analogy of "ahuiani-tl" 
(words formed with "-ni" function comfortably as nouns, although they 
dance on the borderline between verbs and nouns).

   I have been assuming that "teyolia" was an instrumental noun, 
parallel to "ipatlania" (its fin, its means of 'flying').  Therefore, 
the initial "te-" of "teyolia" is a possessive prefix rather than an 
object, which is consistent with the intransitive verb stem "yoli".  
"te-yoli-ya" = someone's means of living??

   The following list contains all the instrumental -ya occurrences 
that I have identified so far.  As you can see, it is still rough, 
still in need of spelling refinement.

Saludos,

Joe


*ya1 ***

  ahciya , amotetech- (amotetechacia).  your [pl.] means of approaching
    people. <poss-poss-tech1-ahci-ya1 +del.y>. b.12 f.1 p.15|

  ahcoquizaya , i- (jacoquj‡aia).  his exaltation. <poss-ahco-qui:za-
    ya1>. b.6 f.2 p.26|

  ahcoquizaya , n[o]- (nacoquj‡aia).  my exaltation. <poss-ahco-qui:za-
    ya1>. b.6 f.1 p.9|

  anaya , ine- (ineanaia).  her waist band. <poss-p53-a:na1-ya1>. b.2
    f.8 p.138|

  atlia , t[o]- (tatlia).  mustache; our mustache. <poss-a:tl1-i:1-ya1>.
    b.10 f.8 p.137b|

  atlia =to (t[o]atlia).  bigotes; bigotes dela barba; bozo de barua.
    <poss-a:tl1-i:1-ya1>. 55m-2|

  caquia , motla- (motlacaquja).  your hearing organ. <poss-p51-caqui-
    ya1>. b.6 f.10 p.122|

  caquia =pactica in notla (pactica in notlacaquia).  iuizio bueno tener
    y sano. <pa:qui-prt1-ti1-ca:1a in poss-p51-caqui-ya1 aux11a
    +phrase>. 71m1-132|

  caquia =pactica in notla (pactica in^notlacaquia).  sano de juyzio;
    tener sano el juizio el que esta enfermo. <pa:qui-prt1-ti1-ca:1a in
    poss-p51-caqui-ya1 aux11a +phrase>. 71m1-191|

  caquiya , ahtotla- (atotlacaquja).  . <ah1-poss-p51-caqui-ya1 +del.y>.
    b.6 f.11 p.137|

  celiloya , tla- (tlaceliloia).  place for receiving. <p51-ceya-delya-
    ben-lo:2-ya1>. b.10 f.6 p.107a|

  cemilhuitiaya , i- (ycemjlhujtiaia).  his daily sustenance. <poss-cem-
    ilhuitl-v07-ya1>. b.4 f.4 p.37|

  cemilhuitiaya , i- (icemilhujtiaia).  his daily sustenance. <poss-cem-
    ilhuitl-v07-ya1>. b.4 f.12 p.125|

  cempapaquiliztiaya in dios =ite (itecempapaquiliztiaya in dios).  la
    bienauenturanza y gloria sempiterna que da nuestro se¤or dios. <poss-
    p52-cem-dupl-pa:qui-liz-v04-caus08-ya1 in ++dios +spanish>. 71m2-7|

  cencuiltonoaya in dios =ite (itecencuiltonoaya in dios).  la
    bienauenturanza y gloria sempiterna que da nuestro se¤or dios
    (idem). <poss-p52-cem-cuilto:noa:-ya1 in ++dios +spanish>. 71m2-7|

  centlahmachtiaya in dios =ite (itecentlahmachtiaya in dios).  la
    bienauenturanza y gloria sempiterna que da nuestro se¤or dios
    (idem). <poss-p52-cem-p51-ih2-mati-l2-v04-caus08-ya1 in ++dios +t>ch
    +spanish>. 71m2-7|

  cetiliaya =note (notecetiliaya).  el medio que tengo para hazer de dos
    cosas vna, juntando las ambas ados. <poss-p52-cem-v01a-caus04-ya1>.
    71m2-13|

  chichihuaya , intla- (intlachichioaia).  their tools for ornamenting.
    <poss-p51-dupl-chi:hua-ya1>. b.9 f.7 p.91|

  ciaya =to (tociaya).  nuestra voluntad, o querer. <poss-ceya-ya1 +e>i
    +del.y>. 71m2-25|

  ciyaya =no (nociaya).  mi voluntad o querer. <poss-ceya-ya1 +del.y>.
    71m2-12|

  cochiya , to- (tocochia).  our eyelashes. <poss-cochi-ya1 +del.y>.
    b.10 f.6 p.102a|

  cochiya =to (tocochia).  las pesta¤as; pesta¤a. <poss-cochi-ya1
    +del.y>. 71m2-4|

  cochiyatl (cochiatl).  las pesta¤as; pesta¤a. <cochi-ya1-tl +del.y>.
    71m2-4|

  cocochiya =to (tococochia).  las pesta¤as; pesta¤a. <poss-dupl-cochi-
    ya1 +del.y>. 71m2-25|

  cohuaya , itla- (itlacoaia).  his means of buying. <poss-p51-co:hua-
    ya1 +del.w>. b.3 f.1 p.9|

  coyonya =to (busca ijada (found yjada,parte del cuerpo) |
tocoyonya |
|
    busca ijada (found yjada,parte del cuerpo)).  hijada. <poss-coyo:ni--
    ya1 +ret.n>. 71m1-131|

  cuauhquechtlahuilanaya =cuacuahuehqueh in (cuacuahuehqueh
    incuauhquechtlahuilanaya).  yugo para u¤ir; yugo para v¤ir; yugo
    para v¤ir bueyes. <cua:itl-cuahuitl-e:1-prt4-plur14 poss-cuahuitl-
    quechtli-p51-huila:na-ya1 +phrase.poss +phrase +ev.verb.21>. 55m-
    12|

  cuauhtlalpiaya , i- (iquauhtlalpiaya).  his eagle head band. <poss-
    cua:uhtli-p51-ilpi-caus08=0-ya1>. b.8 f.5 p.87|

  cuaya , intla- (jntlaquaia).  their dishes. <poss-p51-cua:-ya1>. b.1
    f.3 p.49|

  cuaya , ite- (itequaia).  its mouth, its means of devouring people;
    its organ for eating people. <poss-p52-cua:-ya1 +min>. b.11 f.1
    p.6|

  cuaya , totla- (totlaquaia).  our place for eating. <poss-p51-cua:-
    lo:2-ya1>. b.10 f.6 p.107a|

  elimiquia cuacuahueh =i (ielimiquia cuacuahueh).  arado. <poss-
    e:limiqui-ya1 cua:itl-cuahuitl-e:1-prt4 +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-
    1|

  elimiquia =cuacuahueh i (cuacuahueh ielimiquia).  arado; reja de
    arado. <cua:itl-cuahuitl-e:1-prt4 poss-e:limiqui-ya1 +phrase.poss
    +phrase>. 71m1-022|

  huelmatia , totla- (totlauelmatia).  our place of tasting. <poss-p51-
    huel1-mati-ya1>. b.10 f.6 p.107b|

  huelmatia =totla (totlahuelmatia).  el sentido del gusto. <poss-p51-
    huel1-mati-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  huitequia , itla- (itlaujtequja).  its beak. <poss-p51-hui:tequi-ya1>.
    b.2 f.5 p.94|

  [i]czaya , itla- (jtlac‡aia).  his walking staff. <poss-p51-icza-ya1>.
    b.1 f.2 p.43|

  [i]czaya , itla- (ytlac‡aia).  his traveling staff. <poss-p51-icza-
    ya1>. b.1 f.2 p.44|

  [i]czaya , totla- (totlac‡aia).  our pressing place. <poss-p51-icza-
    ya1>. b.10 f.7 p.122b|

  iczaya =totla (totla[i]czaya).  la planta del pie; pata o planta del
    pie; planta del pie. <poss-p51-icza-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  iczayatl =tla (tla[i]czayatl) [scribal error: ??note unusual
    absolutive on the -ya suffix: 55m].  pata o planta del pie. <p51-
    icza-ya1-tl>. 55m-15|

  iczayatl =tla (tla[i]czayatl).  pata o planta del pie. <p51-icza-ya1-
    tl>. 71m1-162|

  iczayatl =tla (tla[i]czayatl) [scribal error: ??note absolutive:
    71m2].  pata o planta del pie. <p51-icza-ya1-tl>. 71m2-20|

  ihcuiloa =notlalnamiquiya niqu (notlalnamiquiya niquihcuiloa).
    escreuir por minuta. <poss-p51-illi-na:miqui-ya1 p11-p33-ihcuilli-
    v03a-caus06>. 55m-8|

  [i]hnecuia , totla- (totla>necuia).  our sense of smell. <poss-p51-
    ihnecui-ya1>. b.10 f.6 p.104a|

  ihnecuiya =totla (totla[i]hnecuiya).  el sentido del oler. <poss-p51-
    ihnecui-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  ilnamiquia =totla (totla[i]lnamiquia).  memoria. <poss-p51-illi-
    na:miqui-ya1>. 55m-13|

  ilnamiquiya niquihcuiloa =notla (notlalnamiquiya niquihcuiloa).
    escreuir por minuta. <poss-p51-illi-na:miqui-ya1 p11-p33-ihcuilli-
    v03a-caus06>. 71m1-102|

  [i]tquia , intla- (jntlatquja).  . <poss-p51-itqui-ya1>. b.4 f.6
    p.60|

  ixtlahuaya =notla (notla[i]xtlahuaya).  paga, lo que doy para pagar lo
    que deuo. <poss-p51-ixtla:hui-v09-ya1>. 71m1-162|

  mactia , i- (imactia).  . <poss-maca-l2-v04-ya1>. b.1 f.2 p.33|

  mactia , ine- (inemactia).  ; it became his gift. <poss-p53-maca-l2-
    v04-ya1>. b.4 f.6 p.54|

  mahpilhuiaya =tote (totemahpilhuiaya).  dedo con que mostramos algo;
    el dedo con que mostramos; o se¤alamos algo. <poss-p52-ma:itl-pilli-
    v05b-ya1>. 55m-4|

  mamaya , intla- (jntlamamaia).  . <poss-p51-ma:ma:-ya1>. b.4 f.6
    p.60|

  manahuiaya =none (nonemanahuiaya).  mi amparo, o defensa, mis armas, o
    mi mierda. <poss-p53-ma:nahuia:1-manahuia2-ya1>. 71m2-12|

  mapatlaya , ine- (inemapatlaia).  her defense. <poss-p53-ma:itl-patla1-
    ya1>. b.2 f.10 p.158|

  matcanemitiaya =notetla (notetlamatcanemitiaya).  la paz conque yo
    hago biuir en paz alos otros. <poss-p52-p51-mati-prt1-ca:6-nemi-
    caus02-ya1>. 71m2-13|

  matcanemitiaya in dios =itetla (itetlamatcanemitiaya in dios).  la paz
    de nuestro se¤or. <poss-p52-p51-mati-prt1-ca:6-nemi-caus02-ya1-in-
    ++dios +spanish +phrase.poss +phrase>. 71m2-7|

  matia , tone- (tonematia).  our sense of feeling. <poss-p53-mati-ya1>.
    b.10 f.8 p.135a|

  matia , tonehneh- (tone>ne>matia).  our senses. <poss-dupl-p53-mati-
    ya1>. b.10 f.8 p.135a|

  matocaya =totla (totlamatocaya).  el sentido del palpar. <poss-p51-
    ma:itl-toca2-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  maya , itla- (jtlamaia).  its mouth. <poss-p51-ma:1-ya1>. b.11 f.1
    p.6|

  maya , itlahtla- (jtla>tlamaia).  its jaws. <poss-dupl-p51-ma:1-ya1
    +fusion>. b.11 f.1 p.6|

  minaya =xicohtli ite (xicohtli iteminaya).  aguijon de aueja; aguijon
    de abeja. <xi:cohtli poss-p52-mi:tl-v14-caus09-ya1 +phrase.poss
    +phrase>. 55m-002|

  namiquia , inte- (intenamjquja).  their greeting [gift], their means
    of greeting. <poss-p52-na:miqui-ya1>. b.12 f.1 p.13|

  nelohuaya , itla- (jtlanelooaia).  its rower. <poss-p51-nelihui-caus06-
    ya1 +insert.w>. b.11 f.6 p.58|

  nenemia , i[n]- (inenemja).  their means of traveling. <poss-dupl-nemi-
    ya1>. b.1 f.2 p.41|

  nequia =notla (notlanequia).  mi voluntad, o mi querer. <poss-p51-
    nequi-ya1>. 71m2-13|

  nequia =totla (totlanequia).  nuestra voluntad, o querer. <poss-p51-
    nequi-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  ohtlatocaya , i- (ivtlatocaia).  his wherewithal for the journey.
    <poss-ohtli-p51-toca2-ya1 +fusion>. b.4 f.2 p.17|

  ohtlatocaya , i- (iotlatocaia).  his trail rations, his means of
    living on the road. <poss-ohtli-p51-toca2-ya1 +fusion>. b.4 f.12
    p.125|

  ohtlatocaya , im- (jmotlatocaia).  their means of traveling. <poss-
    ohtli-p51-toca2-ya1 +fusion>. b.1 f.2 p.41|

  papatlaya , ine- (ynepapatlaia).  his turn. <poss-p53-dupl-patla1-
    ya1>. b.2 f.3 p.80|

  papatlaya , inne- (jnnepapatlaia).  their turn. <poss-p53-dupl-patla1-
    ya1>. b.2 f.3 p.80|

  patlania , i- (ipatlania).  its fin. <poss-patla:ni-ya1>. b.9 f.6
    p.74|

  patlania , i- (jpatlanja).  its place of flight, its means of flying;
    its swimmer; its fin. <poss-patla:ni-ya1>. b.11 f.6 p.55|

  patlania , i- (ipatlanja).  its flying part. <poss-patla:ni-ya1>. b.11
    f.9 p.89|

  patlania , i- (jpatlanja).  its means of flying. <poss-patla:ni-ya1>.
    b.11 f.10 p.100|

  polihuia , i- (jpolivia).  his destruction. <poss-polihui-ya1>. b.6
    f.3 p.29|

  polihuia , no- (nopoliuja).  my destruction. <poss-polihui-ya1>. b.6
    f.1 p.9|

  polihuiya , i- (jpolivia).  his destruction. <poss-polihui-ya1
    +del.y>. b.6 f.2 p.26|

  quen ca in notlacaquia =ahmo (ahmo quen^ca in^notlacaquia).  iuizio
    bueno tener y sano; sano de juyzio. <ah1-mo: que:n1 ca:1a in poss-
    p51-caqui-ya1 +phrase>. 71m1-132|

  quen ca in notlacaquia =ahmo (ahmo quen^ca in notlacaquia).  tener
    sano y entero el juyzio. <ah1-mo: que:n1 ca:1a in poss-p51-caqui-ya1
    +phrase>. 71m2-1|

  telicza , tla- (tlatelic‡a).  it kicks something. <p51-tel?-icza-ya1>.
    b.10 f.7 p.127b|

  teliczaya , totla- (totlatelic‡aia).  our kicking places. <poss-p51-
    tel?-icza-ya1>. b.10 f.7 p.127a|

  temoya , i- (itemoia).  his way of coming down, his path of coming
    down. <poss-temo:-ya1>. b.2 f.14 p.240|

  tenamiquia , amo- (amotenamjquja).  your [pl.] greeting [gift], your
    [pl.] means of greeting. <poss-p52-na:miqui-ya1>. b.12 f.1 p.15|

  tlacaanaya , ite- (itetlacaanaia).  his way of hunting people; its
    organ for hunting people. <poss-p52-tla:catl-a:na1-ya1>. b.11 f.7
    p.69|

  tlacahuapahuaya , in- (jntlacaoapaoaia).  . <poss-tla:catl-huapa:hua-
    ya1>. b.4 f.6 p.60|

  tlacatocaya , i- (itlacatocaia).  . <poss-tla:catl-to:ca:itl-ya1>. b.4
    f.2 p.13|

  tlacazcaltiaya , in- (jntlacazcaltiaia).  . <poss-tla:catl-izcalli-v11-
    caus08-ya1>. b.4 f.6 p.60|

  tlachiyaya , ahto- (atotlachiaia).  . <ah1-poss-tlachiya-ya1 +del.y>.
    b.6 f.11 p.137|

  tlachiyaya , i- (ytlachiaia).  his device for seeing. <poss-tlachiya-
    ya1 +del.y +ret.y>. b.1 f.2 p.34|

  tlachiyayan , ahto- (atotlachiaia).  . <ah1-poss-tlachiya-ya1 +del.y
    +del.n>. b.6 f.12 p.143|

  tlaczaya , to- (totlac‡aia).  our place of pushing. <poss-p51-icza-
    ya1>. b.10 f.7 p.115a|

  tlaczaya , totla- (totlatlac‡aia).  our pressing places. <poss-dupl-
    p51-icza-ya1>. b.10 f.8 p.135a|

  tlahpaloaya , inte- (jntetlapaloaia).  their greetings; their
    greeting. <poss-p52-tlahpalli-v03a-caus06-ya1>. b.4 f.9 p.88|

  tlahuanaya , in- (intlaoanaia).  their drinking vessel. <poss-
    tla:hua:na-ya1>. b.4 f.11 p.118|

  tlahuelcuia , to- (totlauelcuja).  our anger. <poss-tlahue:lli-cui-
    ya1>. b.10 f.8 p.131b|

  tlahuelnamiquia =note= (tlahuelnamiquia =note=).  mi contencion o
    contradicion, con que contra digo y peleo contra otros. <tlahue:lli-
    na:miqui-ya1>. 71m2-25|

  tlahuilanaya =cuacuahuehqueh in (cuacuahuehqueh intlahuilanaya).  yugo
    para u¤ir; yugo para v¤ir; yugo para v¤ir bueyes. <cua:itl-cuahuitl-
    e:1-prt4-plur14 poss-p51-huila:na-ya1 +phrase.poss +phrase
    +ev.verb.21>. 55m-12|

  tlaliaya , tone- (tonetlaliaia).  our sitting place. <poss-p53-
    tla:lia:-ya1>. b.10 f.7 p.122b|

  tlatlalia , to- (Totlatlalia).  our stomach. <poss-p51-tla:lia:-ya1>.
    b.10 f.9 p.155|

  tlatlaliaya , to- (totlatlaliaia).  our stomach. <poss-p51-tla:lia:-
    ya1>. b.10 f.9 p.155|

  tlatlaliaya =to (totlatlaliaya).  el estomago. <poss-p51-tla:lia:-
    ya1>. 71m2-26|

  tlatoloaya =no= (tlatoloaya =no=).  mi tragadero o gaznate. <p51-
    to:loa:-ya1>. 71m2-24|

  tlatoloaya =to (totlatoloaya).  el gaznate, o tragadero. <poss-p51-
    to:loa:-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  tlatzihuia , i- (itlatzivia).  his aversion. <poss-tlatzihui-ya1>. b.6
    f.13 p.154|

  tzatzahtzia =to= (tzatzahtzia =to=).  la olla dela garganta, oel
    gritadero. <dupl-tzahtzi-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  tzopaya , i- (itzopaia).  her weaving stick. <poss-tzopi--ya1>. b.2
    f.8 p.138|

  yolia =te (teyolia).  alma o anima; anima de alguno; anima o alma; el
    alma; o anima. <poss-yo:lli-v13-ya1>. 55m-002|

  yolia =to (toyolia).  alma, o anima; anima o alma. <poss-yo:lli-v13-
    ya1>. 71m2-25|

  yolia icocoliz =to (toyolia icocoliz).  passion del anima; passion de
    anima. <poss-yo:lli-v13-ya1 poss-cocoya-delya-liz +phrase.poss
    +phrase>. 55m-15|

  yolnonotzaya niquihcuiloa =none (noneyolnonotzaya niquihcuiloa).
    escreuir por minuta. <poss-p53-yo:lli-dupl-no:tza-ya1 p11-p33-
    ihcuilli-v03a-caus06>. 55m-8|

morpheme count 166




"Mr. Tezozomoc" <tezozomoc at hotmail.com>:

> In the
> Nahuatl to Spanish side of Molina's dictionary we read: "Teyolia. el alma, o
> anima." But, did we believe in a soul?  On the
> surface, teyoliatl looks like a noun. If we try to break it down we
> get teyoli
> and atl, ATL, water. So we say "okay, it's some kind of water".
>
> yoli
> looks like the verb YOLi, to live. So now we think it must some how
> be related
> to aguas vivas, and te must be TE, some one, people.
>
> But yoli
> cannot be YOLi because YOLi is intransitive and cannot take, the object
> TE.
> We could
> say teyoli is TEYOLiH, the preterit of TEYOLiA, to make some one live.
>
> But verbs
> are connected to nouns by CA. So we should expect TEYOLiHCAATL We're way off!
> Besides, life is YOLiZTLi. Let's take a different approach.
>
> What if
> it's not a noun? What if it's a verb disguised as a noun?
> If we
> remove the noun marker we're left with teyolia. This looks like a transitive
> verb YoLiA or YOLiA, with the nonspecific human object TE.
> I haven't
> come upon such a verb. But there are many i/iA verb pairs (aQUi/aQUiA,
> OLINi/OLINiA, iHUiNTi/iHUiNTiA, etc).
>
> So, we
> could say there might be a pair YOLi/YOLiA. Then, TEYOLiA would meen
> "it makes
> people live". And, TEYOLiATL would be the thing that makes people live.
>
> That's
> not how you nominalize verbs. If there was a verb YOLiA, we'd get 4 agentive
> nouns: TEYOLiHQUi, TEYOLiANi, TEYOLIZQUi, and YOLIZTLi. But not
> TEYOLiATL.
>
> In the
> Spanish to Nahuatl section of Molina's dictionary we read: "Alma o anima.
> teyolia, teyolitia, teanima."
>
> teyolia
> would be TEYOLiA, he/she makes make people live. But not even Molina
> has a verb
> YOLiA.
>
> And don't
> even think teyolia could be someone's YOLiA, 'cause this would be
> TEYOLiAUH.
> teyolitia
> is TEYOLITiA, he/she makes people live. YOLi has 2 causative forms:
> YOLiLTiA and
> YOLITiA. But not YOLiA.
>
> teanima
> is a Spanish/Nahuatl hybrid. It'd meen someone's soul.The use of
> Spanish anima
> indicates this is a foreign concept.
>
> The
> frailes used Spanhuatl for foreign things. Like peral quauitl, pear
> tree; hicox,
> fig; tiox, god; angelotin, angels; colos, cross; etc.
>
> All the
> early grammarians were frailes. That's why we find alma, confesion, pecado,
> fiesta de guardar, bautismo, salvacion, dios, etc.
>
> We have
> to consider that some terms may have been coined to answer como se
> dice esto o
> aquello.
>
> Simeon
> also has teyoliatl. But he based his dictionary on Molina's.
>
> Bierhorst
> doesn't have it. Which meens it's not used in the Cantares. Karttunen doesn't
> have it either. Which meens she couldn't make sense of it.
>
> "Ex Nihilo"
> It seems,
> at least to me, that teyoliatl is a word invented to name something
> the friars
> were describing.
> The
> foreignness of the concept is reflected in its ungrammatical construction.
>
>
> From Ruben Ramirez "Huitzilmazatzin"
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sat Dec  7 18:26:00 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 12:26:00 -0600
Subject: Molina's Lost Soul.....
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2013.122600.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Dear Mr. Tezozomoc:

Alfredo López Austin wrote a pioneering study on what he called the
"entidades anímicas" (partially avoiding words like "alma" and "ánima,"
although the ghost of the latter word haunts his adjective) in early
colonial period sources in Náhuatl, as part of his classic work on the human
body and ideology among the ancient Nahua:

LÓPEZ AUSTIN, Alfredo
1989	Cuerpo humano e ideología, las concepciones de los antiguos nahuas,
3a. ed., 2 vols., México, Instituto de Investigaciones Antropológicas,
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México.

This was the inspiration for Furst's work, mentioned by Fritz Schwaller in a
recent post:

FURST, Jill Leslie McKeever
1995	The natural history of the soul in ancient Mexico, New
Haven/Londres, Yale University Press.

Both studies highlight the naturalistic vision of humanity, even in areas as
intangible as this, which bears enough of a resemblance to the Christian
concept of the "soul" for the early friars (and modern missionary linguists)
to relate them in their dictionaries. A big difference is that the ancient
Mesoamerican "souls," in general, dissipated after four years, while the
Christian souls were eternal.

Molina gives three apparent synonyms: teyolia, teyolitia and toyolia. The
second looks like a causative verb with an indefinite human object prefix,
te:yo:litia (te:- + yo:li + tia: [a: > a]), which Molina registers as
"Yolitia. nite. dar vida a otro. pr. oniteyoliti."

I see teyolia as an analogous construction, with the causative suffix -a:
instead of the causative suffix -tia:. Thus we would have the indefinite
human object prefix te:-, the verb yo:li, "live," and the causative suffix
-a: (shortening to -a due to word-final position): te:yo:lia (te:- + yo:li +
a: [a: > a]), "he/she/it makes someone live," a verbal sentence used (or
translated by Molina) with a nominal sense. I don't see the intransitive
nature of yo:li as a problem, since the causative form yo:lia: (unattested
in Molina, but analogous to the transitive verb yo:litia:), like all
causative verbs, is necessarily transitive. There are other verbs that can
take more than one causative suffix, so this would not be unusual.

Toyolia looks to me like the causative verb yo:lia: reinterpreted as a noun,
with the first person plural possessive prefix to-: toyo:lia, which can be
loosely translated as "the source of our life."

Siméon's analysis of teyolia and teyolitia as nouns, assuming the existence
of unattested absolutive forms yoliatl and yolitiatl, seems somewhat
reasonable, since the suffix te:- is used as a generic possessive prefix,
but the probable existence of the forms teyolia and teyolitia as causative
verb sentences suggests a verbal origin of both words.

According to López Austin there are two other "entidades anímicas": to:nalli
(related to solar energy and destiny) and ihi:yo:tl (the breath of life).

The same three entities may be found in colonial and modern sources on the
Otomí, who also participated (fully) in the multilingual culture of central
Mexico. It is possible to establish the following correspondences:

te:yo:lia/te:yo:litia/toyo:lia <-> mui/’mui/’bui/mbui

to:nalli <-> nzaki/zaki

ihi:yo:tl <-> ndähi/te

I won't go into the Otomí words here, but I will mention that they are
semantically close to the corresponding Náhuatl terms, and have to do with
heart/stomach/life, energy/vigor, and breath/vitality, respectively.

Saludos desde Guanajuato,

David Wright

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de Mr. Tezozomoc
Enviado el: viernes, 6 de diciembre de 2013 05:55 p. m.
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Molina's Lost Soul.....

In the 
Nahuatl to Spanish side of Molina's dictionary we read: "Teyolia. el alma, o

anima." But, did we believe in a soul?  On the 
surface, teyoliatl looks like a noun. If we try to break it down we get
teyoli 
and atl, ATL, water. So we say "okay, it's some kind of water." 

yoli 
looks like the verb YOLi, to live. So now we think it must some how be
related 
to aguas vivas, and te must be TE, some one, people. 

But yoli 
cannot be YOLi because YOLi is intransitive and cannot take, the object 
TE. 
We could 
say teyoli is TEYOLiH, the preterit of TEYOLiA, to make some one live. 

But verbs 
are connected to nouns by CA. So we should expect TEYOLiHCAATL We're way
off! 
Besides, life is YOLiZTLi. Let's take a different approach. 

What if 
it's not a noun? What if it's a verb disguised as a noun? 
If we 
remove the noun marker we're left with teyolia. This looks like a transitive

verb YoLiA or YOLiA, with the nonspecific human object TE. 
I haven't 
come upon such a verb. But there are many i/iA verb pairs (aQUi/aQUiA, 
OLINi/OLINiA, iHUiNTi/iHUiNTiA, etc). 

So, we 
could say there might be a pair YOLi/YOLiA. Then, TEYOLiA would meen "it
makes 
people live." And, TEYOLiATL would be the thing that makes people live. 

That's 
not how you nominalize verbs. If there was a verb YOLiA, we'd get 4 agentive

nouns: TEYOLiHQUi, TEYOLiANi, TEYOLIZQUi, and YOLIZTLi. But not 
TEYOLiATL. 

In the 
Spanish to Nahuatl section of Molina's dictionary we read: "Alma o anima. 
teyolia, teyolitia, teanima." 

teyolia 
would be TEYOLiA, he/she makes make people live. But not even Molina has a
verb 
YOLiA. 

And don't 
even think teyolia could be someone's YOLiA, 'cause this would be 
TEYOLiAUH. 
teyolitia 
is TEYOLITiA, he/she makes people live. YOLi has 2 causative forms: YOLiLTiA
and 
YOLITiA. But not YOLiA. 

teanima 
is a Spanish/Nahuatl hybrid. It'd meen someone's soul.The use of Spanish
anima 
indicates this is a foreign concept. 

The 
frailes used Spanhuatl for foreign things. Like peral quauitl, pear tree;
hicox, 
fig; tiox, god; angelotin, angels; colos, cross; etc. 

All the 
early grammarians were frailes. That's why we find alma, confesion, pecado, 
fiesta de guardar, bautismo, salvacion, dios, etc. 

We have 
to consider that some terms may have been coined to answer como se dice esto
o 
aquello. 

Simeon 
also has teyoliatl. But he based his dictionary on Molina's. 

Bierhorst 
doesn't have it. Which meens it's not used in the Cantares. Karttunen
doesn't 
have it either. Which meens she couldn't make sense of it. 

"Ex Nihilo"
It seems, 
at least to me, that teyoliatl is a word invented to name something the
friars 
were describing. 
The 
foreignness of the concept is reflected in its ungrammatical construction. 


>From Ruben Ramirez "Huitzilmazatzin"




  		 	   		  
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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 14:25:16 2013
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:25:16 -0600
Subject: Moskotl
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.082516.0600.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Hi listeros

Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?

best,
Magnus

-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From jdanahuatl at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 15:13:32 2013
From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 10:13:32 -0500
Subject: Moskotl
In-Reply-To: <CAEj69cwtcSTRXucMk5fffQukrsPoTc0NSAd2RSzkWtK3ss5wFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.101332.0500.JDANAHUATL@GMAIL.COM>

Hi Magnus

Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side of
a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Hi listeros
>
> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>
> best,
> Magnus
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
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From tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  9 15:15:41 2013
From: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com (Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 16:15:41 +0100
Subject: Moskotl
In-Reply-To: <CAD_TCBF9XR_4GtzYRHfnQ1Bx=uRJmnDKrnw9LN9yu3Tf_2P-zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.161541.0100.TEPOXTECO3@HOTMAIL.COM>

Para el náhuatl de la huasteca existe el verbo MOZCOA y significa calentarse (junto(por)  el fuego).

Ejemplo: 1. Quemman tlahuel tlaceceya na nochipa nimozcoa. 'Cuando hace mucho frio yo me caliento (junto al fuego)'.
                 2. Ne mizton nochipa mozcoa tlixictenno. 'Ese gato siempre se calienta muy junto(labio-orilla)  al fuego. 

Cualli tonatiuh, Magnus.


Victoriano de la Cruz
UW, PL
Estudiante de doctorado.
vcruz at al.uw.edu.pl



El 09/12/2013, a las 16:13, Jonathan Amith escribió:

> Hi Magnus
> 
> Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side of
> a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com
>> wrote:
> 
>> Hi listeros
>> 
>> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
>> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>> 
>> best,
>> Magnus
>> 
>> --
>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>> PhD. candidate
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 
>> Brown University
>> 128 Hope St.
>> Providence, RI 02906
>> 
>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Mon Dec  9 19:59:17 2013
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 14:59:17 -0500
Subject: Moskotl
In-Reply-To: <CAEj69cwtcSTRXucMk5fffQukrsPoTc0NSAd2RSzkWtK3ss5wFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.145917.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Hey Magnus,

   Here is what I could find...

Joe


Contexts in the Florentine Codex:

ozcoa:  (Florentine contexts)

1.  *m[o]ozcohua*.  pehua in mozcohua: pehua in mocinixquia in
    mocalhuia, .  they begin to warm themselves; the ears of maize
    begin to roast [and] they eat toasted maize. . <p54-ozcoa:
    +insert.w> (b.11 f.2 c.1 p.14)|

2.  *m[o]ozcohua*.  mocuecuepa in mozcohua, quincuecuepa in impilhuan,
    in quimozcohua, in quintotonia. .  they walk about as they warm
    themselves; they change their children about as they warm and heat
    them. . <p54-ozcoa: +insert.w> (b.11 f.2 c.1 p.14)|

3.  *ne[o]zcolo*.  ihuan miec tlamantli, inic tlacnelia: ca ic
    nezcolo, ic tlapahuaxo, ic tlaucxitilo, ic tlaxco, .  and for many
    purposes was he useful; for with him one was warmed, things were
    cooked in an olla, things were cooked, things were toasted, . <p53
    ozcoa:-lo:2> (b.1 f.1 c.13 p.29)|

4.  *nee[o]zcolo*.  tlatlatlatilo, neezcolo. .  there was the lighting
    of fires on the part of each one; there was being warmed by the
    fire on the part of each one. . <p43--ozcoa:-lo:2> (b.2 f.8 c.33
    p.137)|

5.  *quimozcohua*.  mocuecuepa in mozcohua, quincuecuepa in impilhuan,
    in quimozcohua, in quintotonia. .  they walk about as they warm
    themselves; they change their children about as they warm and heat
    them. . <p43-ozcoa: +insert.w> (b.11 f.2 c.1 p.14)|



located in the Molina dictionaries and the Florentine Codex

*<ozcoa:> ***

  ozcoa =nino (nin-ozcoa).  calentar se al huego. <p11-p54-ozcoa:>. 55m-
    2|

  ozcoa =nino (ozcoa =nin).  calentarse al fuego. <p11-p54-ozcoa:>. 71m1-
    042|

  ozcoa =nino (nin-ozcoa).  escalentarse al huego. <p11-p54-ozcoa:>. 55m-
    8|

  ozcoa =nino (nin[o]ozcoa).  escalentarse al fuego. <p11-p54-ozcoa:>.
    71m1-102|

  ozcoa =nino=oninozcoh (ozcoa =nin =oninozcoh).  callentarse al fuego.
    <p11-p54-ozcoa:>. 71m2-13|

  ozcohua , m[o]- (mozcooa).  they warm themselves. <p54-ozcoa:
    +insert.w>. b.11 f.2 p.14|

  ozcohua , quim- (qujmozcooa).  they warm them. <p43-ozcoa: +insert.w>.
    b.11 f.2 p.14|

  ozcoliztli =ne (neozcoliztli).  calentamiento assi  (assi is
    calentarse al fuego); callentamiento del que se calienta al fuego.
    <p53-ozcoa:-liz>. 71m1-042|

  ozcoliztli =ne (ne[o]zcoliztli).  calientamiento al fuego, delos que
    tienen frio; escalentamiento assi  (assi is escalentarse al huego).
    <p53-ozcoa:-liz>. 71m2-12|

  ozcoliztli =te (te[o]zcoliztli).  escalentamiento assi  (assi is
    escalentarse al fuego). <p52-ozcoa:-liz>. 71m1-102|

  [o]zcolo , ne- (nezcolo).  there is warming. <p53-ozcoa:-lo:2>. b.1
    f.1 p.29|

  [o]zcolo , nee- (neezcolo).  there is warming on the part of each one.
    <p43--ozcoa:-lo:2>. b.2 f.8 p.137|

morpheme count 15






Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:

> Hi listeros
>
> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>
> best,
> Magnus
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 21:00:35 2013
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 15:00:35 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 320, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1386612001.31406.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.150035.0600.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Listeros,

Thanks for all of your quick replies. I agree that the word is probably
related to (mo)iskoa, but the attestation I have is specifically as the
noun, moskotl with the meaning fire. If derived from the reflexive moskoa
it is quite an odd deverbal derivation. If you happen upon a nominal with
the form moskotl (or moskol, moskot, or even muskut) I'd be very happy to
know of it.

best wishes,
Magnus


On 9 December 2013 12:00, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:

> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
>         nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Moskotl (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
>    2. Re: Moskotl (Jonathan Amith)
>    3. Re: Moskotl (Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:25:16 -0600
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
> Hi listeros
>
> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>
> best,
> Magnus
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jonathan Amith <jdanahuatl at gmail.com>
> To: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
> Cc: Nahuatl List <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 10:13:32 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
> Hi Magnus
>
> Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side of
> a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <
> magnuspharao at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi listeros
> >
> > Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
> > something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
> >
> > best,
> > Magnus
> >
> > --
> > Magnus Pharao Hansen
> > PhD. candidate
> > Department of Anthropology
> >
> > Brown University
> > 128 Hope St.
> > Providence, RI 02906
> >
> > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> > US: 001 401 651 8413
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz <tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com>
> To: Nahuatl List <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Cc: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 16:15:41 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
> Para el náhuatl de la huasteca existe el verbo MOZCOA y significa
> calentarse (junto(por)  el fuego).
>
> Ejemplo: 1. Quemman tlahuel tlaceceya na nochipa nimozcoa. 'Cuando hace
> mucho frio yo me caliento (junto al fuego)'.
>                  2. Ne mizton nochipa mozcoa tlixictenno. 'Ese gato
> siempre se calienta muy junto(labio-orilla)  al fuego.
>
> Cualli tonatiuh, Magnus.
>
>
> Victoriano de la Cruz
> UW, PL
> Estudiante de doctorado.
> vcruz at al.uw.edu.pl
>
>
>
> El 09/12/2013, a las 16:13, Jonathan Amith escribió:
>
> > Hi Magnus
> >
> > Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side
> of
> > a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <
> magnuspharao at gmail.com
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi listeros
> >>
> >> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
> >> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
> >>
> >> best,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> --
> >> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> >> PhD. candidate
> >> Department of Anthropology
> >>
> >> Brown University
> >> 128 Hope St.
> >> Providence, RI 02906
> >>
> >> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> >> US: 001 401 651 8413
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nahuatl mailing list
> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From idiez at me.com  Mon Dec  9 22:29:18 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:29:18 +0000
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 320, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <CAEj69cwvAPCpYs21rYhRh=RM2OwHCgASeKhMGM_XFc1yt4Zo9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.222918.0000.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Dear listeros,
	Ok, so first is it izcohua or izcoa? It would seem to be the latter. Next, this kind of deverbal derivation (patientive noun) with class 3 verbs, although not real common, does appear. And the fact that the reflexive prefix doesnʻt change to ne- is probably indicative of the fact that this is a peripheral phenomenon.
John

On Dec 9, 2013, at 21:00, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:

> Listeros,
> 
> Thanks for all of your quick replies. I agree that the word is probably
> related to (mo)iskoa, but the attestation I have is specifically as the
> noun, moskotl with the meaning fire. If derived from the reflexive moskoa
> it is quite an odd deverbal derivation. If you happen upon a nominal with
> the form moskotl (or moskol, moskot, or even muskut) I'd be very happy to
> know of it.
> 
> best wishes,
> Magnus
> 
> 
> On 9 December 2013 12:00, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:
> 
>> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
>>        nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> 
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>        http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>        nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
>> 
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>        nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org
>> 
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>   1. Moskotl (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
>>   2. Re: Moskotl (Jonathan Amith)
>>   3. Re: Moskotl (Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz)
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
>> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> Cc:
>> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:25:16 -0600
>> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
>> Hi listeros
>> 
>> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
>> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>> 
>> best,
>> Magnus
>> 
>> --
>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>> PhD. candidate
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 
>> Brown University
>> 128 Hope St.
>> Providence, RI 02906
>> 
>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Jonathan Amith <jdanahuatl at gmail.com>
>> To: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Nahuatl List <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 10:13:32 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
>> Hi Magnus
>> 
>> Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side of
>> a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <
>> magnuspharao at gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi listeros
>>> 
>>> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
>>> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>>> 
>>> best,
>>> Magnus
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>>> PhD. candidate
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 
>>> Brown University
>>> 128 Hope St.
>>> Providence, RI 02906
>>> 
>>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
>>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz <tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com>
>> To: Nahuatl List <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>> Cc: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
>> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 16:15:41 +0100
>> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
>> Para el náhuatl de la huasteca existe el verbo MOZCOA y significa
>> calentarse (junto(por)  el fuego).
>> 
>> Ejemplo: 1. Quemman tlahuel tlaceceya na nochipa nimozcoa. 'Cuando hace
>> mucho frio yo me caliento (junto al fuego)'.
>>                 2. Ne mizton nochipa mozcoa tlixictenno. 'Ese gato
>> siempre se calienta muy junto(labio-orilla)  al fuego.
>> 
>> Cualli tonatiuh, Magnus.
>> 
>> 
>> Victoriano de la Cruz
>> UW, PL
>> Estudiante de doctorado.
>> vcruz at al.uw.edu.pl
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> El 09/12/2013, a las 16:13, Jonathan Amith escribió:
>> 
>>> Hi Magnus
>>> 
>>> Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side
>> of
>>> a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <
>> magnuspharao at gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi listeros
>>>> 
>>>> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
>>>> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>>>> 
>>>> best,
>>>> Magnus
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>>>> PhD. candidate
>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>> 
>>>> Brown University
>>>> 128 Hope St.
>>>> Providence, RI 02906
>>>> 
>>>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
>>>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
> 
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
> 
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From idiez at me.com  Mon Dec  9 22:33:19 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:33:19 +0000
Subject: ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa, izcohua
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.223319.0000.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Sorry, 
	I should have asked, is it ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa or izcohua?
John
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 10 02:58:19 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 21:58:19 -0500
Subject: ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa, izcohua
In-Reply-To: <EEE91879-518E-4C35-B348-8E38BE671ACD@me.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.215819.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Hi, John,

The existence of the -ohua form would suggest, it seems, that the -oa 
form is an orthographic reduction.

As for whether this is ozcohua or [i]zcohua, I wonder if the evidence 
lies in  items 3 and 4 that Joe sent earlier today:

ne[o]zcolo

nee[o]zcolo

An initial i- giving hypothetical *[i]zcohua would disappear under the 
influence of ne-, as we see for example in nehmatiliz.

I can't think of an example where ne- precedes a word with initial o-, 
but it seems to me that both vowels would remain. In the examples above 
the word is not *nozcolo. It seems that the verb in question could be 
[i]zcohua.

Then again, we have some snow fog tonight, so that might be getting in 
my way to understanding.

Michael


Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>: of

> Sorry,
> 	I should have asked, is it ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa or izcohua?
> John
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From campbel at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 10 03:33:32 2013
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:33:32 -0500
Subject: ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa, izcohua
In-Reply-To: <EEE91879-518E-4C35-B348-8E38BE671ACD@me.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.223332.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

John,

   Unless I'm mistaken, the -ohua forms all come from the Florentine; 
Molina doesn't have -ohua.

   Of course, that doesn't have any weight.  What does weigh is the 
shape of the forms that our sources have.  On the issue of what the 
initial vowel of the stem is, Mol-1 S-N has "neozcoliztli", giving us 
the information that the 'o' is not part of the object prefix; the 
Florentine, Book 11, has 'quimozcooa' (with a 'quim-' prefix), "they 
warm them", corroborating the "o- initial" verb stem hypothesis.

   The 'oa' or 'ohua' question is resolved by a citation in M-2 N-S: 
the preterit of "ninozcoa' is 'oninozco[h]', not 'oninozcouh' (the 
final 'h' of 'oninozcoh') added here as a favor to fray Alonso).

   Oh, the issue of "oa" vs. "ohua" reminds me that I haven't 
regularized the "primary" or "display" spelling for these particular 
entries yet.  Of course, the database will maintain a double 
representation: display (regularized) vs. original.

Cheers,

Joe



Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:

> Sorry,
> 	I should have asked, is it ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa or izcohua?
> John
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 10 03:38:28 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:38:28 -0500
Subject: ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa, izcohua
In-Reply-To: <20131209223332.ahtz17hhwooscwkk@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.223828.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Nice to have sources!

Thanks, Joe.

Michael


Quoting "Campbell,  R. Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> John,
>
>   Unless I'm mistaken, the -ohua forms all come from the Florentine;
> Molina doesn't have -ohua.
>
>   Of course, that doesn't have any weight.  What does weigh is the
> shape of the forms that our sources have.  On the issue of what the
> initial vowel of the stem is, Mol-1 S-N has "neozcoliztli", giving us
> the information that the 'o' is not part of the object prefix; the
> Florentine, Book 11, has 'quimozcooa' (with a 'quim-' prefix), "they
> warm them", corroborating the "o- initial" verb stem hypothesis.
>
>   The 'oa' or 'ohua' question is resolved by a citation in M-2 N-S:
> the preterit of "ninozcoa' is 'oninozco[h]', not 'oninozcouh' (the
> final 'h' of 'oninozcoh') added here as a favor to fray Alonso).
>
>   Oh, the issue of "oa" vs. "ohua" reminds me that I haven't
> regularized the "primary" or "display" spelling for these particular
> entries yet.  Of course, the database will maintain a double
> representation: display (regularized) vs. original.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
>
>> Sorry,
>> 	I should have asked, is it ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa or izcohua?
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From idiez at me.com  Tue Dec 10 12:51:50 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:51:50 +0000
Subject: ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa, izcohua
In-Reply-To: <20131209223332.ahtz17hhwooscwkk@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2013.125150.0000.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Piljoetzin,
	Ok, so that’s clear, although I’ve been trying to think up something clever to say about not regularizing headwords. 
And, just for the heck of it, I’ll repeat my handy way of telling whether we are dealing with -oa/-ohua or -ia/-iya.
1. To distinguish between -oa and -ohua, we need an attestation of the future form which will either be -oz or -ohuaz. The preterite won’t work because both in writing and speaking the -oh/-ouh can be confused, although sometimes we would have -oh/-ohuac
2. To distinguish between -ia/-iya we can use either the future, -iz/-iyaz or the preterite, -ih/-ix
John

On Dec 10, 2013, at 3:33, Campbell, R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:

> John,
> 
>  Unless I'm mistaken, the -ohua forms all come from the Florentine; Molina doesn't have -ohua.
> 
>  Of course, that doesn't have any weight.  What does weigh is the shape of the forms that our sources have.  On the issue of what the initial vowel of the stem is, Mol-1 S-N has "neozcoliztli", giving us the information that the 'o' is not part of the object prefix; the Florentine, Book 11, has 'quimozcooa' (with a 'quim-' prefix), "they warm them", corroborating the "o- initial" verb stem hypothesis.
> 
>  The 'oa' or 'ohua' question is resolved by a citation in M-2 N-S: the preterit of "ninozcoa' is 'oninozco[h]', not 'oninozcouh' (the final 'h' of 'oninozcoh') added here as a favor to fray Alonso).
> 
>  Oh, the issue of "oa" vs. "ohua" reminds me that I haven't regularized the "primary" or "display" spelling for these particular entries yet.  Of course, the database will maintain a double representation: display (regularized) vs. original.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> 
>> Sorry,
>> 	I should have asked, is it ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa or izcohua?
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
> 
> 
> 

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From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 18:32:21 2013
From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 10:32:21 -0800
Subject: zoatlacatl as a word for seeds
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2013.103221.0800.TOMGRIGSBY@YAHOO.COM>

Listeros,
When talking to an old timer about planting practices he
told me the in the old days seeds (maize, frijoles, and squash) were referred
to as “zoatlacatl.” I read this as “female/male” woman/man. Has anybody seen
this term used for seeds (or anything else) in the literature? Are there any
other possible meanings?
Thanks,
Tom Grigsby
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Dec 20 02:11:50 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:11:50 -0500
Subject: zoatlacatl as a word for seeds
In-Reply-To: <1387477941.51527.YahooMailNeo@web120805.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2013.211150.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

In terms of other possible concatenations, the spealling "zoa + 
tlacatl" could represent

zohua- + a:tla:catl  'female' + 'water person' (i.e., person fashioned 
of water)

zohua- + ahtla:catl  'female' + 'inhuman person'

Those sound quite strange for "seed".

Michael


Quoting grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>:

> Listeros,
> When talking to an old timer about planting practices he
> told me the in the old days seeds (maize, frijoles, and squash) were referred
> to as ?zoatlacatl.? I read this as ?female/male? woman/man. Has anybody seen
> this term used for seeds (or anything else) in the literature? Are there any
> other possible meanings?
> Thanks,
> Tom Grigsby
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From chelodona at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 20 06:43:29 2013
From: chelodona at hotmail.com (chelo dona)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 03:43:29 -0300
Subject: zoatlacatl as a word for seeds
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2013.034329.0300.CHELODONA@HOTMAIL.COM>

Quoting Michael Mccaffe:

 

>"In terms of other possible concatenations, the
spealling "zoa + 

>tlacatl" could represent

> 

>zohua- + a:tla:catl 
'female' + 'water person' (i.e., person fashioned 

>of water) ... Those sound quite strange for
'seed'."

 

Couldn't be seeds as “wife of the water”, “bride of the
water”? it makes sense for me.

Just from a meaning-poetical point of view. I follow the
list, I have no linguistical clues. Excuse my boldness anyway.

 

Marcelo Donadello

 

 


 

Quoting grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>:

 

> Listeros,

> When talking to an old timer about planting
practices he

> told me the in the old days seeds (maize, frijoles,
and squash) were referred

> to as ?zoatlacatl.? I read this as ?female/male?
woman/man. Has anybody seen

> this term used for seeds (or anything else) in the
literature? Are there any

> other possible meanings?

> Thanks,

> Tom Grigsby

> _______________________________________________

> Nahuatl mailing list

> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

> 

 		 	   		  
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Dec 20 14:31:30 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:31:30 -0500
Subject: zoatlacatl as a word for seeds
In-Reply-To: <BLU175-W34313BA27B1F6E306256A7A6C40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2013.093130.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting chelo dona <chelodona at hotmail.com>:

>
>
> Couldn't be seeds as "wife of the water", "bride of the
> water"? it makes sense for me.

atl izohuauh = wife of the water




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From idiez at me.com  Tue Dec  3 04:36:05 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 22:36:05 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <CAEj69cx_eCQ4OeHHik4mMDRPJJCwzz2Pn0vTeGAJrHKpdHViZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2013.223605.0600.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Magnus,
	First of all, do you or anyone on the list have a .pdf of Canger?s book, or know where I can download it?
	Now for my question. If the -oa verber originates as -iwa, why does the preterite forms reduce to -oh?
Best,
John

On Nov 22, 2013, at 14:26, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi John,
> 
> As for -oa, Canger's 1980 book "Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in -oa" studies the history of this form in detail. What is now /oa/ comes originally from verbs in -iwa, where the iw became o. The use of the -oa as a general verbalizing ending was then created by analogy with the new verbforms, that is why it doesn't "look like a Nahuatl morpheme". 
> 
> best,
> Magnus

>  
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
> 
> Brown University                          
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
> 

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec  3 12:22:51 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:22:51 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <5B4D7272-F0FA-4885-92FD-13D9CC8047D6@me.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2013.072251.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Uh...that's what verbs ending in -oa do.


Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:

> Magnus,
> 	First of all, do you or anyone on the list have a .pdf of Canger's
> book, or know where I can download it?
> 	Now for my question. If the -oa verber originates as -iwa, why does
> the preterite forms reduce to -oh?
> Best,
> John
>
> On Nov 22, 2013, at 14:26, Magnus Pharao Hansen
> <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> As for -oa, Canger's 1980 book "Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in
>> -oa" studies the history of this form in detail. What is now /oa/
>> comes originally from verbs in -iwa, where the iw became o. The use
>> of the -oa as a general verbalizing ending was then created by
>> analogy with the new verbforms, that is why it doesn't "look like a
>> Nahuatl morpheme".
>>
>> best,
>> Magnus
>
>>
>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>> PhD. candidate
>> Department of Anthropology
>>
>> Brown University
>> 128 Hope St.
>> Providence, RI 02906
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From idiez at me.com  Wed Dec  4 00:19:10 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 18:19:10 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <20131203072251.o95xbb37k00k848s@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2013.181910.0600.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Michael,
	Yes, but not if the origin of -oa is -iwa. For -oa to go to -oh in the preterite its origina would have to be -ota, with the -ta being either a berber or a valence-adder.
John

On Dec 3, 2013, at 6:22, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> 
> 
> Uh...that's what verbs ending in -oa do.
> 
> 
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> 
>> Magnus,
>> 	First of all, do you or anyone on the list have a .pdf of Canger's
>> book, or know where I can download it?
>> 	Now for my question. If the -oa verber originates as -iwa, why does
>> the preterite forms reduce to -oh?
>> Best,
>> John
>> 
>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 14:26, Magnus Pharao Hansen
>> <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi John,
>>> 
>>> As for -oa, Canger's 1980 book "Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in
>>> -oa" studies the history of this form in detail. What is now /oa/
>>> comes originally from verbs in -iwa, where the iw became o. The use
>>> of the -oa as a general verbalizing ending was then created by
>>> analogy with the new verbforms, that is why it doesn't "look like a
>>> Nahuatl morpheme".
>>> 
>>> best,
>>> Magnus
>> 
>>> 
>>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>>> PhD. candidate
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 
>>> Brown University
>>> 128 Hope St.
>>> Providence, RI 02906
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 19:05:05 2013
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 13:05:05 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 319, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1386180002.13932.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2013.130505.0600.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

No, John, -t- is not the only source of h in modern Nahuatl.



From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
To: Mccafferty Michael <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Cc: list nahuatl discussion <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:19:10 -0600
Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1
Michael,
        Yes, but not if the origin of -oa is -iwa. For -oa to go to -oh in
the preterite its origina would have to be -ota, with the -ta being either
a berber or a valence-adder.
John


On 4 December 2013 12:00, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:

> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
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>    1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1 (John Sullivan)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: Mccafferty Michael <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> Cc: list nahuatl discussion <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:19:10 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 318, Issue 1
> Michael,
>         Yes, but not if the origin of -oa is -iwa. For -oa to go to -oh in
> the preterite its origina would have to be -ota, with the -ta being either
> a berber or a valence-adder.
> John
>
> On Dec 3, 2013, at 6:22, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Uh...that's what verbs ending in -oa do.
> >
> >
> > Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> >
> >> Magnus,
> >>      First of all, do you or anyone on the list have a .pdf of Canger's
> >> book, or know where I can download it?
> >>      Now for my question. If the -oa verber originates as -iwa, why does
> >> the preterite forms reduce to -oh?
> >> Best,
> >> John
> >>
> >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 14:26, Magnus Pharao Hansen
> >> <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi John,
> >>>
> >>> As for -oa, Canger's 1980 book "Five Studies of Nahuatl Verbs in
> >>> -oa" studies the history of this form in detail. What is now /oa/
> >>> comes originally from verbs in -iwa, where the iw became o. The use
> >>> of the -oa as a general verbalizing ending was then created by
> >>> analogy with the new verbforms, that is why it doesn't "look like a
> >>> Nahuatl morpheme".
> >>>
> >>> best,
> >>> Magnus
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> >>> PhD. candidate
> >>> Department of Anthropology
> >>>
> >>> Brown University
> >>> 128 Hope St.
> >>> Providence, RI 02906
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nahuatl mailing list
> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From tezozomoc at hotmail.com  Fri Dec  6 23:54:41 2013
From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 15:54:41 -0800
Subject: Molina's Lost Soul.....
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2013.155441.0800.TEZOZOMOC@HOTMAIL.COM>

In the 
Nahuatl to Spanish side of Molina's dictionary we read: "Teyolia. el alma, o 
anima." But, did we believe in a soul?  On the 
surface, teyoliatl looks like a noun. If we try to break it down we get teyoli 
and atl, ATL, water. So we say "okay, it's some kind of water". 

yoli 
looks like the verb YOLi, to live. So now we think it must some how be related 
to aguas vivas, and te must be TE, some one, people. 

But yoli 
cannot be YOLi because YOLi is intransitive and cannot take, the object 
TE. 
We could 
say teyoli is TEYOLiH, the preterit of TEYOLiA, to make some one live. 

But verbs 
are connected to nouns by CA. So we should expect TEYOLiHCAATL We're way off! 
Besides, life is YOLiZTLi. Let's take a different approach. 

What if 
it's not a noun? What if it's a verb disguised as a noun? 
If we 
remove the noun marker we're left with teyolia. This looks like a transitive 
verb YoLiA or YOLiA, with the nonspecific human object TE. 
I haven't 
come upon such a verb. But there are many i/iA verb pairs (aQUi/aQUiA, 
OLINi/OLINiA, iHUiNTi/iHUiNTiA, etc). 

So, we 
could say there might be a pair YOLi/YOLiA. Then, TEYOLiA would meen "it makes 
people live". And, TEYOLiATL would be the thing that makes people live. 

That's 
not how you nominalize verbs. If there was a verb YOLiA, we'd get 4 agentive 
nouns: TEYOLiHQUi, TEYOLiANi, TEYOLIZQUi, and YOLIZTLi. But not 
TEYOLiATL. 

In the 
Spanish to Nahuatl section of Molina's dictionary we read: "Alma o anima. 
teyolia, teyolitia, teanima." 

teyolia 
would be TEYOLiA, he/she makes make people live. But not even Molina has a verb 
YOLiA. 

And don't 
even think teyolia could be someone's YOLiA, 'cause this would be 
TEYOLiAUH. 
teyolitia 
is TEYOLITiA, he/she makes people live. YOLi has 2 causative forms: YOLiLTiA and 
YOLITiA. But not YOLiA. 

teanima 
is a Spanish/Nahuatl hybrid. It'd meen someone's soul.The use of Spanish anima 
indicates this is a foreign concept. 

The 
frailes used Spanhuatl for foreign things. Like peral quauitl, pear tree; hicox, 
fig; tiox, god; angelotin, angels; colos, cross; etc. 

All the 
early grammarians were frailes. That's why we find alma, confesion, pecado, 
fiesta de guardar, bautismo, salvacion, dios, etc. 

We have 
to consider that some terms may have been coined to answer como se dice esto o 
aquello. 

Simeon 
also has teyoliatl. But he based his dictionary on Molina's. 

Bierhorst 
doesn't have it. Which meens it's not used in the Cantares. Karttunen doesn't 
have it either. Which meens she couldn't make sense of it. 

"Ex Nihilo"
It seems, 
at least to me, that teyoliatl is a word invented to name something the friars 
were describing. 
The 
foreignness of the concept is reflected in its ungrammatical construction. 


>From Ruben Ramirez "Huitzilmazatzin"




  		 	   		  
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Sat Dec  7 02:20:29 2013
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 21:20:29 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl soul
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2013.212029.0500.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

I would suggest that you read Jill Leslie McKeever Furst's _The Natural
History of the Soul in Ancient America_ Yale, 1997

She analyzes all of these options and discusses it in depth.


-- 
John F. Schwaller
Professor,
University at Albany
1400 Washington Ave.
Albany, NY 12222


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From campbel at indiana.edu  Sat Dec  7 04:24:37 2013
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 23:24:37 -0500
Subject: Molina's Lost Soul.....
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2013.232437.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Mr. Tezozomoctzin ihuan occequi nocnihuan,

   This message gives me hope that Nahuat-l can and may function as a 
forum for discussing problems about Nahuatl, particularly word 
formation ( |8-) ).

   First, the word "teyoiatl".  My guess is that this an addition by 
Simeon, and as you hint, not in Molina.  Although Simeon based his 
dictionary mainly on Molina, he *did* add words, and my suspicion is 
that he formed "teyoliatl" to "teyolia" on the analogy of "ahuiani-tl" 
(words formed with "-ni" function comfortably as nouns, although they 
dance on the borderline between verbs and nouns).

   I have been assuming that "teyolia" was an instrumental noun, 
parallel to "ipatlania" (its fin, its means of 'flying').  Therefore, 
the initial "te-" of "teyolia" is a possessive prefix rather than an 
object, which is consistent with the intransitive verb stem "yoli".  
"te-yoli-ya" = someone's means of living??

   The following list contains all the instrumental -ya occurrences 
that I have identified so far.  As you can see, it is still rough, 
still in need of spelling refinement.

Saludos,

Joe


*ya1 ***

  ahciya , amotetech- (amotetechacia).  your [pl.] means of approaching
    people. <poss-poss-tech1-ahci-ya1 +del.y>. b.12 f.1 p.15|

  ahcoquizaya , i- (jacoquj?aia).  his exaltation. <poss-ahco-qui:za-
    ya1>. b.6 f.2 p.26|

  ahcoquizaya , n[o]- (nacoquj?aia).  my exaltation. <poss-ahco-qui:za-
    ya1>. b.6 f.1 p.9|

  anaya , ine- (ineanaia).  her waist band. <poss-p53-a:na1-ya1>. b.2
    f.8 p.138|

  atlia , t[o]- (tatlia).  mustache; our mustache. <poss-a:tl1-i:1-ya1>.
    b.10 f.8 p.137b|

  atlia =to (t[o]atlia).  bigotes; bigotes dela barba; bozo de barua.
    <poss-a:tl1-i:1-ya1>. 55m-2|

  caquia , motla- (motlacaquja).  your hearing organ. <poss-p51-caqui-
    ya1>. b.6 f.10 p.122|

  caquia =pactica in notla (pactica in notlacaquia).  iuizio bueno tener
    y sano. <pa:qui-prt1-ti1-ca:1a in poss-p51-caqui-ya1 aux11a
    +phrase>. 71m1-132|

  caquia =pactica in notla (pactica in^notlacaquia).  sano de juyzio;
    tener sano el juizio el que esta enfermo. <pa:qui-prt1-ti1-ca:1a in
    poss-p51-caqui-ya1 aux11a +phrase>. 71m1-191|

  caquiya , ahtotla- (atotlacaquja).  . <ah1-poss-p51-caqui-ya1 +del.y>.
    b.6 f.11 p.137|

  celiloya , tla- (tlaceliloia).  place for receiving. <p51-ceya-delya-
    ben-lo:2-ya1>. b.10 f.6 p.107a|

  cemilhuitiaya , i- (ycemjlhujtiaia).  his daily sustenance. <poss-cem-
    ilhuitl-v07-ya1>. b.4 f.4 p.37|

  cemilhuitiaya , i- (icemilhujtiaia).  his daily sustenance. <poss-cem-
    ilhuitl-v07-ya1>. b.4 f.12 p.125|

  cempapaquiliztiaya in dios =ite (itecempapaquiliztiaya in dios).  la
    bienauenturanza y gloria sempiterna que da nuestro se?or dios. <poss-
    p52-cem-dupl-pa:qui-liz-v04-caus08-ya1 in ++dios +spanish>. 71m2-7|

  cencuiltonoaya in dios =ite (itecencuiltonoaya in dios).  la
    bienauenturanza y gloria sempiterna que da nuestro se?or dios
    (idem). <poss-p52-cem-cuilto:noa:-ya1 in ++dios +spanish>. 71m2-7|

  centlahmachtiaya in dios =ite (itecentlahmachtiaya in dios).  la
    bienauenturanza y gloria sempiterna que da nuestro se?or dios
    (idem). <poss-p52-cem-p51-ih2-mati-l2-v04-caus08-ya1 in ++dios +t>ch
    +spanish>. 71m2-7|

  cetiliaya =note (notecetiliaya).  el medio que tengo para hazer de dos
    cosas vna, juntando las ambas ados. <poss-p52-cem-v01a-caus04-ya1>.
    71m2-13|

  chichihuaya , intla- (intlachichioaia).  their tools for ornamenting.
    <poss-p51-dupl-chi:hua-ya1>. b.9 f.7 p.91|

  ciaya =to (tociaya).  nuestra voluntad, o querer. <poss-ceya-ya1 +e>i
    +del.y>. 71m2-25|

  ciyaya =no (nociaya).  mi voluntad o querer. <poss-ceya-ya1 +del.y>.
    71m2-12|

  cochiya , to- (tocochia).  our eyelashes. <poss-cochi-ya1 +del.y>.
    b.10 f.6 p.102a|

  cochiya =to (tocochia).  las pesta?as; pesta?a. <poss-cochi-ya1
    +del.y>. 71m2-4|

  cochiyatl (cochiatl).  las pesta?as; pesta?a. <cochi-ya1-tl +del.y>.
    71m2-4|

  cocochiya =to (tococochia).  las pesta?as; pesta?a. <poss-dupl-cochi-
    ya1 +del.y>. 71m2-25|

  cohuaya , itla- (itlacoaia).  his means of buying. <poss-p51-co:hua-
    ya1 +del.w>. b.3 f.1 p.9|

  coyonya =to (busca ijada (found yjada,parte del cuerpo) |
tocoyonya |
|
    busca ijada (found yjada,parte del cuerpo)).  hijada. <poss-coyo:ni--
    ya1 +ret.n>. 71m1-131|

  cuauhquechtlahuilanaya =cuacuahuehqueh in (cuacuahuehqueh
    incuauhquechtlahuilanaya).  yugo para u?ir; yugo para v?ir; yugo
    para v?ir bueyes. <cua:itl-cuahuitl-e:1-prt4-plur14 poss-cuahuitl-
    quechtli-p51-huila:na-ya1 +phrase.poss +phrase +ev.verb.21>. 55m-
    12|

  cuauhtlalpiaya , i- (iquauhtlalpiaya).  his eagle head band. <poss-
    cua:uhtli-p51-ilpi-caus08=0-ya1>. b.8 f.5 p.87|

  cuaya , intla- (jntlaquaia).  their dishes. <poss-p51-cua:-ya1>. b.1
    f.3 p.49|

  cuaya , ite- (itequaia).  its mouth, its means of devouring people;
    its organ for eating people. <poss-p52-cua:-ya1 +min>. b.11 f.1
    p.6|

  cuaya , totla- (totlaquaia).  our place for eating. <poss-p51-cua:-
    lo:2-ya1>. b.10 f.6 p.107a|

  elimiquia cuacuahueh =i (ielimiquia cuacuahueh).  arado. <poss-
    e:limiqui-ya1 cua:itl-cuahuitl-e:1-prt4 +phrase.poss +phrase>. 55m-
    1|

  elimiquia =cuacuahueh i (cuacuahueh ielimiquia).  arado; reja de
    arado. <cua:itl-cuahuitl-e:1-prt4 poss-e:limiqui-ya1 +phrase.poss
    +phrase>. 71m1-022|

  huelmatia , totla- (totlauelmatia).  our place of tasting. <poss-p51-
    huel1-mati-ya1>. b.10 f.6 p.107b|

  huelmatia =totla (totlahuelmatia).  el sentido del gusto. <poss-p51-
    huel1-mati-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  huitequia , itla- (itlaujtequja).  its beak. <poss-p51-hui:tequi-ya1>.
    b.2 f.5 p.94|

  [i]czaya , itla- (jtlac?aia).  his walking staff. <poss-p51-icza-ya1>.
    b.1 f.2 p.43|

  [i]czaya , itla- (ytlac?aia).  his traveling staff. <poss-p51-icza-
    ya1>. b.1 f.2 p.44|

  [i]czaya , totla- (totlac?aia).  our pressing place. <poss-p51-icza-
    ya1>. b.10 f.7 p.122b|

  iczaya =totla (totla[i]czaya).  la planta del pie; pata o planta del
    pie; planta del pie. <poss-p51-icza-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  iczayatl =tla (tla[i]czayatl) [scribal error: ??note unusual
    absolutive on the -ya suffix: 55m].  pata o planta del pie. <p51-
    icza-ya1-tl>. 55m-15|

  iczayatl =tla (tla[i]czayatl).  pata o planta del pie. <p51-icza-ya1-
    tl>. 71m1-162|

  iczayatl =tla (tla[i]czayatl) [scribal error: ??note absolutive:
    71m2].  pata o planta del pie. <p51-icza-ya1-tl>. 71m2-20|

  ihcuiloa =notlalnamiquiya niqu (notlalnamiquiya niquihcuiloa).
    escreuir por minuta. <poss-p51-illi-na:miqui-ya1 p11-p33-ihcuilli-
    v03a-caus06>. 55m-8|

  [i]hnecuia , totla- (totla>necuia).  our sense of smell. <poss-p51-
    ihnecui-ya1>. b.10 f.6 p.104a|

  ihnecuiya =totla (totla[i]hnecuiya).  el sentido del oler. <poss-p51-
    ihnecui-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  ilnamiquia =totla (totla[i]lnamiquia).  memoria. <poss-p51-illi-
    na:miqui-ya1>. 55m-13|

  ilnamiquiya niquihcuiloa =notla (notlalnamiquiya niquihcuiloa).
    escreuir por minuta. <poss-p51-illi-na:miqui-ya1 p11-p33-ihcuilli-
    v03a-caus06>. 71m1-102|

  [i]tquia , intla- (jntlatquja).  . <poss-p51-itqui-ya1>. b.4 f.6
    p.60|

  ixtlahuaya =notla (notla[i]xtlahuaya).  paga, lo que doy para pagar lo
    que deuo. <poss-p51-ixtla:hui-v09-ya1>. 71m1-162|

  mactia , i- (imactia).  . <poss-maca-l2-v04-ya1>. b.1 f.2 p.33|

  mactia , ine- (inemactia).  ; it became his gift. <poss-p53-maca-l2-
    v04-ya1>. b.4 f.6 p.54|

  mahpilhuiaya =tote (totemahpilhuiaya).  dedo con que mostramos algo;
    el dedo con que mostramos; o se?alamos algo. <poss-p52-ma:itl-pilli-
    v05b-ya1>. 55m-4|

  mamaya , intla- (jntlamamaia).  . <poss-p51-ma:ma:-ya1>. b.4 f.6
    p.60|

  manahuiaya =none (nonemanahuiaya).  mi amparo, o defensa, mis armas, o
    mi mierda. <poss-p53-ma:nahuia:1-manahuia2-ya1>. 71m2-12|

  mapatlaya , ine- (inemapatlaia).  her defense. <poss-p53-ma:itl-patla1-
    ya1>. b.2 f.10 p.158|

  matcanemitiaya =notetla (notetlamatcanemitiaya).  la paz conque yo
    hago biuir en paz alos otros. <poss-p52-p51-mati-prt1-ca:6-nemi-
    caus02-ya1>. 71m2-13|

  matcanemitiaya in dios =itetla (itetlamatcanemitiaya in dios).  la paz
    de nuestro se?or. <poss-p52-p51-mati-prt1-ca:6-nemi-caus02-ya1-in-
    ++dios +spanish +phrase.poss +phrase>. 71m2-7|

  matia , tone- (tonematia).  our sense of feeling. <poss-p53-mati-ya1>.
    b.10 f.8 p.135a|

  matia , tonehneh- (tone>ne>matia).  our senses. <poss-dupl-p53-mati-
    ya1>. b.10 f.8 p.135a|

  matocaya =totla (totlamatocaya).  el sentido del palpar. <poss-p51-
    ma:itl-toca2-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  maya , itla- (jtlamaia).  its mouth. <poss-p51-ma:1-ya1>. b.11 f.1
    p.6|

  maya , itlahtla- (jtla>tlamaia).  its jaws. <poss-dupl-p51-ma:1-ya1
    +fusion>. b.11 f.1 p.6|

  minaya =xicohtli ite (xicohtli iteminaya).  aguijon de aueja; aguijon
    de abeja. <xi:cohtli poss-p52-mi:tl-v14-caus09-ya1 +phrase.poss
    +phrase>. 55m-002|

  namiquia , inte- (intenamjquja).  their greeting [gift], their means
    of greeting. <poss-p52-na:miqui-ya1>. b.12 f.1 p.13|

  nelohuaya , itla- (jtlanelooaia).  its rower. <poss-p51-nelihui-caus06-
    ya1 +insert.w>. b.11 f.6 p.58|

  nenemia , i[n]- (inenemja).  their means of traveling. <poss-dupl-nemi-
    ya1>. b.1 f.2 p.41|

  nequia =notla (notlanequia).  mi voluntad, o mi querer. <poss-p51-
    nequi-ya1>. 71m2-13|

  nequia =totla (totlanequia).  nuestra voluntad, o querer. <poss-p51-
    nequi-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  ohtlatocaya , i- (ivtlatocaia).  his wherewithal for the journey.
    <poss-ohtli-p51-toca2-ya1 +fusion>. b.4 f.2 p.17|

  ohtlatocaya , i- (iotlatocaia).  his trail rations, his means of
    living on the road. <poss-ohtli-p51-toca2-ya1 +fusion>. b.4 f.12
    p.125|

  ohtlatocaya , im- (jmotlatocaia).  their means of traveling. <poss-
    ohtli-p51-toca2-ya1 +fusion>. b.1 f.2 p.41|

  papatlaya , ine- (ynepapatlaia).  his turn. <poss-p53-dupl-patla1-
    ya1>. b.2 f.3 p.80|

  papatlaya , inne- (jnnepapatlaia).  their turn. <poss-p53-dupl-patla1-
    ya1>. b.2 f.3 p.80|

  patlania , i- (ipatlania).  its fin. <poss-patla:ni-ya1>. b.9 f.6
    p.74|

  patlania , i- (jpatlanja).  its place of flight, its means of flying;
    its swimmer; its fin. <poss-patla:ni-ya1>. b.11 f.6 p.55|

  patlania , i- (ipatlanja).  its flying part. <poss-patla:ni-ya1>. b.11
    f.9 p.89|

  patlania , i- (jpatlanja).  its means of flying. <poss-patla:ni-ya1>.
    b.11 f.10 p.100|

  polihuia , i- (jpolivia).  his destruction. <poss-polihui-ya1>. b.6
    f.3 p.29|

  polihuia , no- (nopoliuja).  my destruction. <poss-polihui-ya1>. b.6
    f.1 p.9|

  polihuiya , i- (jpolivia).  his destruction. <poss-polihui-ya1
    +del.y>. b.6 f.2 p.26|

  quen ca in notlacaquia =ahmo (ahmo quen^ca in^notlacaquia).  iuizio
    bueno tener y sano; sano de juyzio. <ah1-mo: que:n1 ca:1a in poss-
    p51-caqui-ya1 +phrase>. 71m1-132|

  quen ca in notlacaquia =ahmo (ahmo quen^ca in notlacaquia).  tener
    sano y entero el juyzio. <ah1-mo: que:n1 ca:1a in poss-p51-caqui-ya1
    +phrase>. 71m2-1|

  telicza , tla- (tlatelic?a).  it kicks something. <p51-tel?-icza-ya1>.
    b.10 f.7 p.127b|

  teliczaya , totla- (totlatelic?aia).  our kicking places. <poss-p51-
    tel?-icza-ya1>. b.10 f.7 p.127a|

  temoya , i- (itemoia).  his way of coming down, his path of coming
    down. <poss-temo:-ya1>. b.2 f.14 p.240|

  tenamiquia , amo- (amotenamjquja).  your [pl.] greeting [gift], your
    [pl.] means of greeting. <poss-p52-na:miqui-ya1>. b.12 f.1 p.15|

  tlacaanaya , ite- (itetlacaanaia).  his way of hunting people; its
    organ for hunting people. <poss-p52-tla:catl-a:na1-ya1>. b.11 f.7
    p.69|

  tlacahuapahuaya , in- (jntlacaoapaoaia).  . <poss-tla:catl-huapa:hua-
    ya1>. b.4 f.6 p.60|

  tlacatocaya , i- (itlacatocaia).  . <poss-tla:catl-to:ca:itl-ya1>. b.4
    f.2 p.13|

  tlacazcaltiaya , in- (jntlacazcaltiaia).  . <poss-tla:catl-izcalli-v11-
    caus08-ya1>. b.4 f.6 p.60|

  tlachiyaya , ahto- (atotlachiaia).  . <ah1-poss-tlachiya-ya1 +del.y>.
    b.6 f.11 p.137|

  tlachiyaya , i- (ytlachiaia).  his device for seeing. <poss-tlachiya-
    ya1 +del.y +ret.y>. b.1 f.2 p.34|

  tlachiyayan , ahto- (atotlachiaia).  . <ah1-poss-tlachiya-ya1 +del.y
    +del.n>. b.6 f.12 p.143|

  tlaczaya , to- (totlac?aia).  our place of pushing. <poss-p51-icza-
    ya1>. b.10 f.7 p.115a|

  tlaczaya , totla- (totlatlac?aia).  our pressing places. <poss-dupl-
    p51-icza-ya1>. b.10 f.8 p.135a|

  tlahpaloaya , inte- (jntetlapaloaia).  their greetings; their
    greeting. <poss-p52-tlahpalli-v03a-caus06-ya1>. b.4 f.9 p.88|

  tlahuanaya , in- (intlaoanaia).  their drinking vessel. <poss-
    tla:hua:na-ya1>. b.4 f.11 p.118|

  tlahuelcuia , to- (totlauelcuja).  our anger. <poss-tlahue:lli-cui-
    ya1>. b.10 f.8 p.131b|

  tlahuelnamiquia =note= (tlahuelnamiquia =note=).  mi contencion o
    contradicion, con que contra digo y peleo contra otros. <tlahue:lli-
    na:miqui-ya1>. 71m2-25|

  tlahuilanaya =cuacuahuehqueh in (cuacuahuehqueh intlahuilanaya).  yugo
    para u?ir; yugo para v?ir; yugo para v?ir bueyes. <cua:itl-cuahuitl-
    e:1-prt4-plur14 poss-p51-huila:na-ya1 +phrase.poss +phrase
    +ev.verb.21>. 55m-12|

  tlaliaya , tone- (tonetlaliaia).  our sitting place. <poss-p53-
    tla:lia:-ya1>. b.10 f.7 p.122b|

  tlatlalia , to- (Totlatlalia).  our stomach. <poss-p51-tla:lia:-ya1>.
    b.10 f.9 p.155|

  tlatlaliaya , to- (totlatlaliaia).  our stomach. <poss-p51-tla:lia:-
    ya1>. b.10 f.9 p.155|

  tlatlaliaya =to (totlatlaliaya).  el estomago. <poss-p51-tla:lia:-
    ya1>. 71m2-26|

  tlatoloaya =no= (tlatoloaya =no=).  mi tragadero o gaznate. <p51-
    to:loa:-ya1>. 71m2-24|

  tlatoloaya =to (totlatoloaya).  el gaznate, o tragadero. <poss-p51-
    to:loa:-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  tlatzihuia , i- (itlatzivia).  his aversion. <poss-tlatzihui-ya1>. b.6
    f.13 p.154|

  tzatzahtzia =to= (tzatzahtzia =to=).  la olla dela garganta, oel
    gritadero. <dupl-tzahtzi-ya1>. 71m2-26|

  tzopaya , i- (itzopaia).  her weaving stick. <poss-tzopi--ya1>. b.2
    f.8 p.138|

  yolia =te (teyolia).  alma o anima; anima de alguno; anima o alma; el
    alma; o anima. <poss-yo:lli-v13-ya1>. 55m-002|

  yolia =to (toyolia).  alma, o anima; anima o alma. <poss-yo:lli-v13-
    ya1>. 71m2-25|

  yolia icocoliz =to (toyolia icocoliz).  passion del anima; passion de
    anima. <poss-yo:lli-v13-ya1 poss-cocoya-delya-liz +phrase.poss
    +phrase>. 55m-15|

  yolnonotzaya niquihcuiloa =none (noneyolnonotzaya niquihcuiloa).
    escreuir por minuta. <poss-p53-yo:lli-dupl-no:tza-ya1 p11-p33-
    ihcuilli-v03a-caus06>. 55m-8|

morpheme count 166




"Mr. Tezozomoc" <tezozomoc at hotmail.com>:

> In the
> Nahuatl to Spanish side of Molina's dictionary we read: "Teyolia. el alma, o
> anima." But, did we believe in a soul?  On the
> surface, teyoliatl looks like a noun. If we try to break it down we
> get teyoli
> and atl, ATL, water. So we say "okay, it's some kind of water".
>
> yoli
> looks like the verb YOLi, to live. So now we think it must some how
> be related
> to aguas vivas, and te must be TE, some one, people.
>
> But yoli
> cannot be YOLi because YOLi is intransitive and cannot take, the object
> TE.
> We could
> say teyoli is TEYOLiH, the preterit of TEYOLiA, to make some one live.
>
> But verbs
> are connected to nouns by CA. So we should expect TEYOLiHCAATL We're way off!
> Besides, life is YOLiZTLi. Let's take a different approach.
>
> What if
> it's not a noun? What if it's a verb disguised as a noun?
> If we
> remove the noun marker we're left with teyolia. This looks like a transitive
> verb YoLiA or YOLiA, with the nonspecific human object TE.
> I haven't
> come upon such a verb. But there are many i/iA verb pairs (aQUi/aQUiA,
> OLINi/OLINiA, iHUiNTi/iHUiNTiA, etc).
>
> So, we
> could say there might be a pair YOLi/YOLiA. Then, TEYOLiA would meen
> "it makes
> people live". And, TEYOLiATL would be the thing that makes people live.
>
> That's
> not how you nominalize verbs. If there was a verb YOLiA, we'd get 4 agentive
> nouns: TEYOLiHQUi, TEYOLiANi, TEYOLIZQUi, and YOLIZTLi. But not
> TEYOLiATL.
>
> In the
> Spanish to Nahuatl section of Molina's dictionary we read: "Alma o anima.
> teyolia, teyolitia, teanima."
>
> teyolia
> would be TEYOLiA, he/she makes make people live. But not even Molina
> has a verb
> YOLiA.
>
> And don't
> even think teyolia could be someone's YOLiA, 'cause this would be
> TEYOLiAUH.
> teyolitia
> is TEYOLITiA, he/she makes people live. YOLi has 2 causative forms:
> YOLiLTiA and
> YOLITiA. But not YOLiA.
>
> teanima
> is a Spanish/Nahuatl hybrid. It'd meen someone's soul.The use of
> Spanish anima
> indicates this is a foreign concept.
>
> The
> frailes used Spanhuatl for foreign things. Like peral quauitl, pear
> tree; hicox,
> fig; tiox, god; angelotin, angels; colos, cross; etc.
>
> All the
> early grammarians were frailes. That's why we find alma, confesion, pecado,
> fiesta de guardar, bautismo, salvacion, dios, etc.
>
> We have
> to consider that some terms may have been coined to answer como se
> dice esto o
> aquello.
>
> Simeon
> also has teyoliatl. But he based his dictionary on Molina's.
>
> Bierhorst
> doesn't have it. Which meens it's not used in the Cantares. Karttunen doesn't
> have it either. Which meens she couldn't make sense of it.
>
> "Ex Nihilo"
> It seems,
> at least to me, that teyoliatl is a word invented to name something
> the friars
> were describing.
> The
> foreignness of the concept is reflected in its ungrammatical construction.
>
>
> From Ruben Ramirez "Huitzilmazatzin"
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sat Dec  7 18:26:00 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 12:26:00 -0600
Subject: Molina's Lost Soul.....
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2013.122600.0600.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Dear Mr. Tezozomoc:

Alfredo L?pez Austin wrote a pioneering study on what he called the
"entidades an?micas" (partially avoiding words like "alma" and "?nima,"
although the ghost of the latter word haunts his adjective) in early
colonial period sources in N?huatl, as part of his classic work on the human
body and ideology among the ancient Nahua:

L?PEZ AUSTIN, Alfredo
1989	Cuerpo humano e ideolog?a, las concepciones de los antiguos nahuas,
3a. ed., 2 vols., M?xico, Instituto de Investigaciones Antropol?gicas,
Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico.

This was the inspiration for Furst's work, mentioned by Fritz Schwaller in a
recent post:

FURST, Jill Leslie McKeever
1995	The natural history of the soul in ancient Mexico, New
Haven/Londres, Yale University Press.

Both studies highlight the naturalistic vision of humanity, even in areas as
intangible as this, which bears enough of a resemblance to the Christian
concept of the "soul" for the early friars (and modern missionary linguists)
to relate them in their dictionaries. A big difference is that the ancient
Mesoamerican "souls," in general, dissipated after four years, while the
Christian souls were eternal.

Molina gives three apparent synonyms: teyolia, teyolitia and toyolia. The
second looks like a causative verb with an indefinite human object prefix,
te:yo:litia (te:- + yo:li + tia: [a: > a]), which Molina registers as
"Yolitia. nite. dar vida a otro. pr. oniteyoliti."

I see teyolia as an analogous construction, with the causative suffix -a:
instead of the causative suffix -tia:. Thus we would have the indefinite
human object prefix te:-, the verb yo:li, "live," and the causative suffix
-a: (shortening to -a due to word-final position): te:yo:lia (te:- + yo:li +
a: [a: > a]), "he/she/it makes someone live," a verbal sentence used (or
translated by Molina) with a nominal sense. I don't see the intransitive
nature of yo:li as a problem, since the causative form yo:lia: (unattested
in Molina, but analogous to the transitive verb yo:litia:), like all
causative verbs, is necessarily transitive. There are other verbs that can
take more than one causative suffix, so this would not be unusual.

Toyolia looks to me like the causative verb yo:lia: reinterpreted as a noun,
with the first person plural possessive prefix to-: toyo:lia, which can be
loosely translated as "the source of our life."

Sim?on's analysis of teyolia and teyolitia as nouns, assuming the existence
of unattested absolutive forms yoliatl and yolitiatl, seems somewhat
reasonable, since the suffix te:- is used as a generic possessive prefix,
but the probable existence of the forms teyolia and teyolitia as causative
verb sentences suggests a verbal origin of both words.

According to L?pez Austin there are two other "entidades an?micas": to:nalli
(related to solar energy and destiny) and ihi:yo:tl (the breath of life).

The same three entities may be found in colonial and modern sources on the
Otom?, who also participated (fully) in the multilingual culture of central
Mexico. It is possible to establish the following correspondences:

te:yo:lia/te:yo:litia/toyo:lia <-> mui/?mui/?bui/mbui

to:nalli <-> nzaki/zaki

ihi:yo:tl <-> nd?hi/te

I won't go into the Otom? words here, but I will mention that they are
semantically close to the corresponding N?huatl terms, and have to do with
heart/stomach/life, energy/vigor, and breath/vitality, respectively.

Saludos desde Guanajuato,

David Wright

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de Mr. Tezozomoc
Enviado el: viernes, 6 de diciembre de 2013 05:55 p. m.
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Nahuat-l] Molina's Lost Soul.....

In the 
Nahuatl to Spanish side of Molina's dictionary we read: "Teyolia. el alma, o

anima." But, did we believe in a soul?  On the 
surface, teyoliatl looks like a noun. If we try to break it down we get
teyoli 
and atl, ATL, water. So we say "okay, it's some kind of water." 

yoli 
looks like the verb YOLi, to live. So now we think it must some how be
related 
to aguas vivas, and te must be TE, some one, people. 

But yoli 
cannot be YOLi because YOLi is intransitive and cannot take, the object 
TE. 
We could 
say teyoli is TEYOLiH, the preterit of TEYOLiA, to make some one live. 

But verbs 
are connected to nouns by CA. So we should expect TEYOLiHCAATL We're way
off! 
Besides, life is YOLiZTLi. Let's take a different approach. 

What if 
it's not a noun? What if it's a verb disguised as a noun? 
If we 
remove the noun marker we're left with teyolia. This looks like a transitive

verb YoLiA or YOLiA, with the nonspecific human object TE. 
I haven't 
come upon such a verb. But there are many i/iA verb pairs (aQUi/aQUiA, 
OLINi/OLINiA, iHUiNTi/iHUiNTiA, etc). 

So, we 
could say there might be a pair YOLi/YOLiA. Then, TEYOLiA would meen "it
makes 
people live." And, TEYOLiATL would be the thing that makes people live. 

That's 
not how you nominalize verbs. If there was a verb YOLiA, we'd get 4 agentive

nouns: TEYOLiHQUi, TEYOLiANi, TEYOLIZQUi, and YOLIZTLi. But not 
TEYOLiATL. 

In the 
Spanish to Nahuatl section of Molina's dictionary we read: "Alma o anima. 
teyolia, teyolitia, teanima." 

teyolia 
would be TEYOLiA, he/she makes make people live. But not even Molina has a
verb 
YOLiA. 

And don't 
even think teyolia could be someone's YOLiA, 'cause this would be 
TEYOLiAUH. 
teyolitia 
is TEYOLITiA, he/she makes people live. YOLi has 2 causative forms: YOLiLTiA
and 
YOLITiA. But not YOLiA. 

teanima 
is a Spanish/Nahuatl hybrid. It'd meen someone's soul.The use of Spanish
anima 
indicates this is a foreign concept. 

The 
frailes used Spanhuatl for foreign things. Like peral quauitl, pear tree;
hicox, 
fig; tiox, god; angelotin, angels; colos, cross; etc. 

All the 
early grammarians were frailes. That's why we find alma, confesion, pecado, 
fiesta de guardar, bautismo, salvacion, dios, etc. 

We have 
to consider that some terms may have been coined to answer como se dice esto
o 
aquello. 

Simeon 
also has teyoliatl. But he based his dictionary on Molina's. 

Bierhorst 
doesn't have it. Which meens it's not used in the Cantares. Karttunen
doesn't 
have it either. Which meens she couldn't make sense of it. 

"Ex Nihilo"
It seems, 
at least to me, that teyoliatl is a word invented to name something the
friars 
were describing. 
The 
foreignness of the concept is reflected in its ungrammatical construction. 


>From Ruben Ramirez "Huitzilmazatzin"




  		 	   		  
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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 14:25:16 2013
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:25:16 -0600
Subject: Moskotl
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.082516.0600.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Hi listeros

Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?

best,
Magnus

-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From jdanahuatl at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 15:13:32 2013
From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 10:13:32 -0500
Subject: Moskotl
In-Reply-To: <CAEj69cwtcSTRXucMk5fffQukrsPoTc0NSAd2RSzkWtK3ss5wFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.101332.0500.JDANAHUATL@GMAIL.COM>

Hi Magnus

Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side of
a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Hi listeros
>
> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>
> best,
> Magnus
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
_______________________________________________
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http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  9 15:15:41 2013
From: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com (Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 16:15:41 +0100
Subject: Moskotl
In-Reply-To: <CAD_TCBF9XR_4GtzYRHfnQ1Bx=uRJmnDKrnw9LN9yu3Tf_2P-zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.161541.0100.TEPOXTECO3@HOTMAIL.COM>

Para el n?huatl de la huasteca existe el verbo MOZCOA y significa calentarse (junto(por)  el fuego).

Ejemplo: 1. Quemman tlahuel tlaceceya na nochipa nimozcoa. 'Cuando hace mucho frio yo me caliento (junto al fuego)'.
                 2. Ne mizton nochipa mozcoa tlixictenno. 'Ese gato siempre se calienta muy junto(labio-orilla)  al fuego. 

Cualli tonatiuh, Magnus.


Victoriano de la Cruz
UW, PL
Estudiante de doctorado.
vcruz at al.uw.edu.pl



El 09/12/2013, a las 16:13, Jonathan Amith escribi?:

> Hi Magnus
> 
> Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side of
> a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com
>> wrote:
> 
>> Hi listeros
>> 
>> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
>> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>> 
>> best,
>> Magnus
>> 
>> --
>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>> PhD. candidate
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 
>> Brown University
>> 128 Hope St.
>> Providence, RI 02906
>> 
>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Mon Dec  9 19:59:17 2013
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 14:59:17 -0500
Subject: Moskotl
In-Reply-To: <CAEj69cwtcSTRXucMk5fffQukrsPoTc0NSAd2RSzkWtK3ss5wFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.145917.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Hey Magnus,

   Here is what I could find...

Joe


Contexts in the Florentine Codex:

ozcoa:  (Florentine contexts)

1.  *m[o]ozcohua*.  pehua in mozcohua: pehua in mocinixquia in
    mocalhuia, .  they begin to warm themselves; the ears of maize
    begin to roast [and] they eat toasted maize. . <p54-ozcoa:
    +insert.w> (b.11 f.2 c.1 p.14)|

2.  *m[o]ozcohua*.  mocuecuepa in mozcohua, quincuecuepa in impilhuan,
    in quimozcohua, in quintotonia. .  they walk about as they warm
    themselves; they change their children about as they warm and heat
    them. . <p54-ozcoa: +insert.w> (b.11 f.2 c.1 p.14)|

3.  *ne[o]zcolo*.  ihuan miec tlamantli, inic tlacnelia: ca ic
    nezcolo, ic tlapahuaxo, ic tlaucxitilo, ic tlaxco, .  and for many
    purposes was he useful; for with him one was warmed, things were
    cooked in an olla, things were cooked, things were toasted, . <p53
    ozcoa:-lo:2> (b.1 f.1 c.13 p.29)|

4.  *nee[o]zcolo*.  tlatlatlatilo, neezcolo. .  there was the lighting
    of fires on the part of each one; there was being warmed by the
    fire on the part of each one. . <p43--ozcoa:-lo:2> (b.2 f.8 c.33
    p.137)|

5.  *quimozcohua*.  mocuecuepa in mozcohua, quincuecuepa in impilhuan,
    in quimozcohua, in quintotonia. .  they walk about as they warm
    themselves; they change their children about as they warm and heat
    them. . <p43-ozcoa: +insert.w> (b.11 f.2 c.1 p.14)|



located in the Molina dictionaries and the Florentine Codex

*<ozcoa:> ***

  ozcoa =nino (nin-ozcoa).  calentar se al huego. <p11-p54-ozcoa:>. 55m-
    2|

  ozcoa =nino (ozcoa =nin).  calentarse al fuego. <p11-p54-ozcoa:>. 71m1-
    042|

  ozcoa =nino (nin-ozcoa).  escalentarse al huego. <p11-p54-ozcoa:>. 55m-
    8|

  ozcoa =nino (nin[o]ozcoa).  escalentarse al fuego. <p11-p54-ozcoa:>.
    71m1-102|

  ozcoa =nino=oninozcoh (ozcoa =nin =oninozcoh).  callentarse al fuego.
    <p11-p54-ozcoa:>. 71m2-13|

  ozcohua , m[o]- (mozcooa).  they warm themselves. <p54-ozcoa:
    +insert.w>. b.11 f.2 p.14|

  ozcohua , quim- (qujmozcooa).  they warm them. <p43-ozcoa: +insert.w>.
    b.11 f.2 p.14|

  ozcoliztli =ne (neozcoliztli).  calentamiento assi  (assi is
    calentarse al fuego); callentamiento del que se calienta al fuego.
    <p53-ozcoa:-liz>. 71m1-042|

  ozcoliztli =ne (ne[o]zcoliztli).  calientamiento al fuego, delos que
    tienen frio; escalentamiento assi  (assi is escalentarse al huego).
    <p53-ozcoa:-liz>. 71m2-12|

  ozcoliztli =te (te[o]zcoliztli).  escalentamiento assi  (assi is
    escalentarse al fuego). <p52-ozcoa:-liz>. 71m1-102|

  [o]zcolo , ne- (nezcolo).  there is warming. <p53-ozcoa:-lo:2>. b.1
    f.1 p.29|

  [o]zcolo , nee- (neezcolo).  there is warming on the part of each one.
    <p43--ozcoa:-lo:2>. b.2 f.8 p.137|

morpheme count 15






Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>:

> Hi listeros
>
> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>
> best,
> Magnus
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 21:00:35 2013
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 15:00:35 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 320, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1386612001.31406.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.150035.0600.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Listeros,

Thanks for all of your quick replies. I agree that the word is probably
related to (mo)iskoa, but the attestation I have is specifically as the
noun, moskotl with the meaning fire. If derived from the reflexive moskoa
it is quite an odd deverbal derivation. If you happen upon a nominal with
the form moskotl (or moskol, moskot, or even muskut) I'd be very happy to
know of it.

best wishes,
Magnus


On 9 December 2013 12:00, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:

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>    1. Moskotl (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
>    2. Re: Moskotl (Jonathan Amith)
>    3. Re: Moskotl (Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:25:16 -0600
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
> Hi listeros
>
> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>
> best,
> Magnus
>
> --
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
>
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
>
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jonathan Amith <jdanahuatl at gmail.com>
> To: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
> Cc: Nahuatl List <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 10:13:32 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
> Hi Magnus
>
> Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side of
> a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <
> magnuspharao at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi listeros
> >
> > Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
> > something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
> >
> > best,
> > Magnus
> >
> > --
> > Magnus Pharao Hansen
> > PhD. candidate
> > Department of Anthropology
> >
> > Brown University
> > 128 Hope St.
> > Providence, RI 02906
> >
> > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> > US: 001 401 651 8413
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz <tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com>
> To: Nahuatl List <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Cc: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 16:15:41 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
> Para el n?huatl de la huasteca existe el verbo MOZCOA y significa
> calentarse (junto(por)  el fuego).
>
> Ejemplo: 1. Quemman tlahuel tlaceceya na nochipa nimozcoa. 'Cuando hace
> mucho frio yo me caliento (junto al fuego)'.
>                  2. Ne mizton nochipa mozcoa tlixictenno. 'Ese gato
> siempre se calienta muy junto(labio-orilla)  al fuego.
>
> Cualli tonatiuh, Magnus.
>
>
> Victoriano de la Cruz
> UW, PL
> Estudiante de doctorado.
> vcruz at al.uw.edu.pl
>
>
>
> El 09/12/2013, a las 16:13, Jonathan Amith escribi?:
>
> > Hi Magnus
> >
> > Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side
> of
> > a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <
> magnuspharao at gmail.com
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi listeros
> >>
> >> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
> >> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
> >>
> >> best,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> --
> >> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> >> PhD. candidate
> >> Department of Anthropology
> >>
> >> Brown University
> >> 128 Hope St.
> >> Providence, RI 02906
> >>
> >> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> >> US: 001 401 651 8413
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nahuatl mailing list
> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
>
>
>
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-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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From idiez at me.com  Mon Dec  9 22:29:18 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:29:18 +0000
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 320, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <CAEj69cwvAPCpYs21rYhRh=RM2OwHCgASeKhMGM_XFc1yt4Zo9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.222918.0000.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Dear listeros,
	Ok, so first is it izcohua or izcoa? It would seem to be the latter. Next, this kind of deverbal derivation (patientive noun) with class 3 verbs, although not real common, does appear. And the fact that the reflexive prefix doesn?t change to ne- is probably indicative of the fact that this is a peripheral phenomenon.
John

On Dec 9, 2013, at 21:00, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:

> Listeros,
> 
> Thanks for all of your quick replies. I agree that the word is probably
> related to (mo)iskoa, but the attestation I have is specifically as the
> noun, moskotl with the meaning fire. If derived from the reflexive moskoa
> it is quite an odd deverbal derivation. If you happen upon a nominal with
> the form moskotl (or moskol, moskot, or even muskut) I'd be very happy to
> know of it.
> 
> best wishes,
> Magnus
> 
> 
> On 9 December 2013 12:00, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:
> 
>> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
>>        nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>   1. Moskotl (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
>>   2. Re: Moskotl (Jonathan Amith)
>>   3. Re: Moskotl (Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz)
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
>> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> Cc:
>> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:25:16 -0600
>> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
>> Hi listeros
>> 
>> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
>> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>> 
>> best,
>> Magnus
>> 
>> --
>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>> PhD. candidate
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 
>> Brown University
>> 128 Hope St.
>> Providence, RI 02906
>> 
>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Jonathan Amith <jdanahuatl at gmail.com>
>> To: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Nahuatl List <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 10:13:32 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
>> Hi Magnus
>> 
>> Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side of
>> a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <
>> magnuspharao at gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi listeros
>>> 
>>> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
>>> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>>> 
>>> best,
>>> Magnus
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>>> PhD. candidate
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 
>>> Brown University
>>> 128 Hope St.
>>> Providence, RI 02906
>>> 
>>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
>>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Victoriano de la Cruz Cruz <tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com>
>> To: Nahuatl List <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>> Cc: Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com>
>> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 16:15:41 +0100
>> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Moskotl
>> Para el n?huatl de la huasteca existe el verbo MOZCOA y significa
>> calentarse (junto(por)  el fuego).
>> 
>> Ejemplo: 1. Quemman tlahuel tlaceceya na nochipa nimozcoa. 'Cuando hace
>> mucho frio yo me caliento (junto al fuego)'.
>>                 2. Ne mizton nochipa mozcoa tlixictenno. 'Ese gato
>> siempre se calienta muy junto(labio-orilla)  al fuego.
>> 
>> Cualli tonatiuh, Magnus.
>> 
>> 
>> Victoriano de la Cruz
>> UW, PL
>> Estudiante de doctorado.
>> vcruz at al.uw.edu.pl
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> El 09/12/2013, a las 16:13, Jonathan Amith escribi?:
>> 
>>> Hi Magnus
>>> 
>>> Just iskowa   reflexively used moskowa  'to heat oneself up by the side
>> of
>>> a fire (e.g., during a cold morning). Cf. in classical under izcoa. jda
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen <
>> magnuspharao at gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi listeros
>>>> 
>>>> Have any of you run into the word "moskotl" meaning either "fire" or
>>>> something similar in any documents or contemporary varieties of Nahuatl?
>>>> 
>>>> best,
>>>> Magnus
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Magnus Pharao Hansen
>>>> PhD. candidate
>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>> 
>>>> Brown University
>>>> 128 Hope St.
>>>> Providence, RI 02906
>>>> 
>>>> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
>>>> US: 001 401 651 8413
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
> 
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
> 
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From idiez at me.com  Mon Dec  9 22:33:19 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:33:19 +0000
Subject: ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa, izcohua
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.223319.0000.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Sorry, 
	I should have asked, is it ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa or izcohua?
John
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 10 02:58:19 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 21:58:19 -0500
Subject: ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa, izcohua
In-Reply-To: <EEE91879-518E-4C35-B348-8E38BE671ACD@me.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.215819.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Hi, John,

The existence of the -ohua form would suggest, it seems, that the -oa 
form is an orthographic reduction.

As for whether this is ozcohua or [i]zcohua, I wonder if the evidence 
lies in  items 3 and 4 that Joe sent earlier today:

ne[o]zcolo

nee[o]zcolo

An initial i- giving hypothetical *[i]zcohua would disappear under the 
influence of ne-, as we see for example in nehmatiliz.

I can't think of an example where ne- precedes a word with initial o-, 
but it seems to me that both vowels would remain. In the examples above 
the word is not *nozcolo. It seems that the verb in question could be 
[i]zcohua.

Then again, we have some snow fog tonight, so that might be getting in 
my way to understanding.

Michael


Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>: of

> Sorry,
> 	I should have asked, is it ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa or izcohua?
> John
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From campbel at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 10 03:33:32 2013
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:33:32 -0500
Subject: ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa, izcohua
In-Reply-To: <EEE91879-518E-4C35-B348-8E38BE671ACD@me.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.223332.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

John,

   Unless I'm mistaken, the -ohua forms all come from the Florentine; 
Molina doesn't have -ohua.

   Of course, that doesn't have any weight.  What does weigh is the 
shape of the forms that our sources have.  On the issue of what the 
initial vowel of the stem is, Mol-1 S-N has "neozcoliztli", giving us 
the information that the 'o' is not part of the object prefix; the 
Florentine, Book 11, has 'quimozcooa' (with a 'quim-' prefix), "they 
warm them", corroborating the "o- initial" verb stem hypothesis.

   The 'oa' or 'ohua' question is resolved by a citation in M-2 N-S: 
the preterit of "ninozcoa' is 'oninozco[h]', not 'oninozcouh' (the 
final 'h' of 'oninozcoh') added here as a favor to fray Alonso).

   Oh, the issue of "oa" vs. "ohua" reminds me that I haven't 
regularized the "primary" or "display" spelling for these particular 
entries yet.  Of course, the database will maintain a double 
representation: display (regularized) vs. original.

Cheers,

Joe



Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:

> Sorry,
> 	I should have asked, is it ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa or izcohua?
> John
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 10 03:38:28 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:38:28 -0500
Subject: ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa, izcohua
In-Reply-To: <20131209223332.ahtz17hhwooscwkk@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2013.223828.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Nice to have sources!

Thanks, Joe.

Michael


Quoting "Campbell,  R. Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>:

> John,
>
>   Unless I'm mistaken, the -ohua forms all come from the Florentine;
> Molina doesn't have -ohua.
>
>   Of course, that doesn't have any weight.  What does weigh is the
> shape of the forms that our sources have.  On the issue of what the
> initial vowel of the stem is, Mol-1 S-N has "neozcoliztli", giving us
> the information that the 'o' is not part of the object prefix; the
> Florentine, Book 11, has 'quimozcooa' (with a 'quim-' prefix), "they
> warm them", corroborating the "o- initial" verb stem hypothesis.
>
>   The 'oa' or 'ohua' question is resolved by a citation in M-2 N-S:
> the preterit of "ninozcoa' is 'oninozco[h]', not 'oninozcouh' (the
> final 'h' of 'oninozcoh') added here as a favor to fray Alonso).
>
>   Oh, the issue of "oa" vs. "ohua" reminds me that I haven't
> regularized the "primary" or "display" spelling for these particular
> entries yet.  Of course, the database will maintain a double
> representation: display (regularized) vs. original.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
>
>> Sorry,
>> 	I should have asked, is it ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa or izcohua?
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From idiez at me.com  Tue Dec 10 12:51:50 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:51:50 +0000
Subject: ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa, izcohua
In-Reply-To: <20131209223332.ahtz17hhwooscwkk@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2013.125150.0000.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Piljoetzin,
	Ok, so that?s clear, although I?ve been trying to think up something clever to say about not regularizing headwords. 
And, just for the heck of it, I?ll repeat my handy way of telling whether we are dealing with -oa/-ohua or -ia/-iya.
1. To distinguish between -oa and -ohua, we need an attestation of the future form which will either be -oz or -ohuaz. The preterite won?t work because both in writing and speaking the -oh/-ouh can be confused, although sometimes we would have -oh/-ohuac
2. To distinguish between -ia/-iya we can use either the future, -iz/-iyaz or the preterite, -ih/-ix
John

On Dec 10, 2013, at 3:33, Campbell, R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:

> John,
> 
>  Unless I'm mistaken, the -ohua forms all come from the Florentine; Molina doesn't have -ohua.
> 
>  Of course, that doesn't have any weight.  What does weigh is the shape of the forms that our sources have.  On the issue of what the initial vowel of the stem is, Mol-1 S-N has "neozcoliztli", giving us the information that the 'o' is not part of the object prefix; the Florentine, Book 11, has 'quimozcooa' (with a 'quim-' prefix), "they warm them", corroborating the "o- initial" verb stem hypothesis.
> 
>  The 'oa' or 'ohua' question is resolved by a citation in M-2 N-S: the preterit of "ninozcoa' is 'oninozco[h]', not 'oninozcouh' (the final 'h' of 'oninozcoh') added here as a favor to fray Alonso).
> 
>  Oh, the issue of "oa" vs. "ohua" reminds me that I haven't regularized the "primary" or "display" spelling for these particular entries yet.  Of course, the database will maintain a double representation: display (regularized) vs. original.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> 
>> Sorry,
>> 	I should have asked, is it ozcoa, ozcohua, izcoa or izcohua?
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
> 
> 
> 

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From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 18:32:21 2013
From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 10:32:21 -0800
Subject: zoatlacatl as a word for seeds
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2013.103221.0800.TOMGRIGSBY@YAHOO.COM>

Listeros,
When talking to an old timer about planting practices he
told me the in the old days seeds (maize, frijoles, and squash) were referred
to as ?zoatlacatl.? I read this as ?female/male? woman/man. Has anybody seen
this term used for seeds (or anything else) in the literature? Are there any
other possible meanings?
Thanks,
Tom Grigsby
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Dec 20 02:11:50 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:11:50 -0500
Subject: zoatlacatl as a word for seeds
In-Reply-To: <1387477941.51527.YahooMailNeo@web120805.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2013.211150.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

In terms of other possible concatenations, the spealling "zoa + 
tlacatl" could represent

zohua- + a:tla:catl  'female' + 'water person' (i.e., person fashioned 
of water)

zohua- + ahtla:catl  'female' + 'inhuman person'

Those sound quite strange for "seed".

Michael


Quoting grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>:

> Listeros,
> When talking to an old timer about planting practices he
> told me the in the old days seeds (maize, frijoles, and squash) were referred
> to as ?zoatlacatl.? I read this as ?female/male? woman/man. Has anybody seen
> this term used for seeds (or anything else) in the literature? Are there any
> other possible meanings?
> Thanks,
> Tom Grigsby
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From chelodona at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 20 06:43:29 2013
From: chelodona at hotmail.com (chelo dona)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 03:43:29 -0300
Subject: zoatlacatl as a word for seeds
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2013.034329.0300.CHELODONA@HOTMAIL.COM>

Quoting Michael Mccaffe:

 

>"In terms of other possible concatenations, the
spealling "zoa + 

>tlacatl" could represent

> 

>zohua- + a:tla:catl 
'female' + 'water person' (i.e., person fashioned 

>of water) ... Those sound quite strange for
'seed'."

 

Couldn't be seeds as ?wife of the water?, ?bride of the
water?? it makes sense for me.

Just from a meaning-poetical point of view. I follow the
list, I have no linguistical clues. Excuse my boldness anyway.

 

Marcelo Donadello

 

 


 

Quoting grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>:

 

> Listeros,

> When talking to an old timer about planting
practices he

> told me the in the old days seeds (maize, frijoles,
and squash) were referred

> to as ?zoatlacatl.? I read this as ?female/male?
woman/man. Has anybody seen

> this term used for seeds (or anything else) in the
literature? Are there any

> other possible meanings?

> Thanks,

> Tom Grigsby

> _______________________________________________

> Nahuatl mailing list

> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

> 

 		 	   		  
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Dec 20 14:31:30 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:31:30 -0500
Subject: zoatlacatl as a word for seeds
In-Reply-To: <BLU175-W34313BA27B1F6E306256A7A6C40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2013.093130.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting chelo dona <chelodona at hotmail.com>:

>
>
> Couldn't be seeds as "wife of the water", "bride of the
> water"? it makes sense for me.

atl izohuauh = wife of the water




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