From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Jul  2 21:26:28 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 17:26:28 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <BLU178-W4382D297A4A533D25FE29CD1720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.172628.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

What is this in relation to? Was there a question about ilhuitl? If so, 
I didn't receive it.

Thank you.

Michael

Quoting Jacinto Acatecatl <tekuani at hotmail.es>:

> ilhuitl= fiestatlamina= que pica, qu punza
> asi tenemos, ilhuitlamina, la fiesta que pica (pero no tiene sentido)
> hay que interpretarlo de otra manera,  y podría ser rayo, centella,
> luz alegre. si lo asociamos con tlamoyotl como en el ejemplo:
> ilhuitlamoyotl, siginificaría exactamente rayo alegre.
> este es mi umilde aportaci+on, no soy linguista, tampoco soy experto
> en la materia.
> que tengan excelente día.
> Jacinto Acatecatl.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From tekuani at hotmail.es  Tue Jul  2 21:15:15 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 16:15:15 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1371920402.25310.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.161515.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

hola buenos días a todos,me gustaría me ayudaran sobre mis apellidos, he esta investigando para poder averiguar sobre el significado de mis apellidos, hasta ahora tengo l o siguiente:
Acatecatl 
Acatl=Caña/carrizoTekatl= tendido/ acostado/Durmiente(viga que sirbe de soporte)  
Namictle              
Mamiktel=  el que est en posibilidades de casarse (i tlanamiktel= su prometido)namike= yo estoy sediendo (ni namike)
miktle= muertemamike= namikilistle-- encuentro

Estoy antento a las dudas, creiticas y comentarios
Atentamente:
Jacinto Acatecatl Namictle 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Tue Jul  2 21:16:51 2013
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (Baert Georges)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 23:16:51 +0200
Subject: Puerta
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.231651.0200.LAHUNIK.62@SKYNET.BE>

Puerta,

Some use "puerta" as a Nahuatl noun derived from the Spanish language.

But is there a typically Nahuatl word for "door"?

Lahun Ik 62

Baert Georges

 

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Jul  2 21:40:37 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 17:40:37 -0400
Subject: Puerta
In-Reply-To: <000f01ce7769$78a2ce10$69e86a30$@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.174037.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

door way quiya:huatl.
in the door way  quiya:huac



Quoting Baert Georges <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>:

> Puerta,
>
> Some use "puerta" as a Nahuatl noun derived from the Spanish language.
>
> But is there a typically Nahuatl word for "door"?
>
> Lahun Ik 62
>
> Baert Georges
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From tekuani at hotmail.es  Tue Jul  2 21:05:25 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 16:05:25 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.876.1372510373.7261.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.160525.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

ilhuitl= fiestatlamina= que pica, qu punza
asi tenemos, ilhuitlamina, la fiesta que pica (pero no tiene sentido) hay que interpretarlo de otra manera,  y podría ser rayo, centella, luz alegre. si lo asociamos con tlamoyotl como en el ejemplo:
ilhuitlamoyotl, siginificaría exactamente rayo alegre.
este es mi umilde aportaci+on, no soy linguista, tampoco soy experto en la materia.
que tengan excelente día.
Jacinto Acatecatl.

 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Tue Jul  2 22:49:21 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 17:49:21 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <BLU178-W3544965953A88A6CD2C45BD1720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.174921.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Muy estimado Jacinto:

En cuanto a tu apellido Acatecatl, veo la lógica de tu análisis. Otra posibilidad es que signifique "persona de Acatlan", formándose de la palabra acatl |ācatl| + teca |tēca| + tl |tl|. Acatlan, por su parte, significa "lugar de carrizos", "junto a los carrizos" o "entre los carrizos". El plural sería acatecah |ācatēcah|) ((|ācatl| – |tl|) + teca |tēca| + |h|), "personas de Acatlan".

Estoy escribiendo cada palabra dos veces, la primera con la antigua ortografía tradicional (más o menos como la que usaba fray Alonso Molina en el siglo XVI) y la segunda, entre rayitas verticales, con la ortografía que propuso Richard Andrews en 1975 y que es usada por Frances Karttunen en su diccionario de 1983, que marca las vocales largas con rayitas horizontales y los saltillos con la letra |h|. Molina y otros autores del periodo Colonial no marcaba las vocales largas y rara vez escribía los saltillos. Escribir todo dos veces tal vez complica demasiado mi mensaje, pero es necesario para ver con precisión cómo se forman las palabras, por ejemplo para distinguir entre el sufijo locativo -tlan |tlān| y la posposición (llamado también palabra relacional) -tlan |tlan|, que tiene un significado similar pero se comporta de una manera distinta adentro de las palabras.

Hay varios sustantivos gentilicios que terminen en -tecatl | tēcatl| y que significan "persona de (algún lugar que termine con el sufijo locativo -tlan |tlān| o su variante -lan |lān|, que se usa cuando la raíz anterior termine con |l|)". Sigue un extracto de la segunda edición, inédita todavía, de mi libro Lectura del náhuatl. La primera edición no tiene el capítulo sobre gentilicios, el cual agregué después de que se imprimió, porque vi que a mis estudiantes les hacía falta para hacer bien sus traducciones de los textos en náhuatl del siglo XVI.

*****************************************************************
Cuando los topónimos llevan el sufijo locativo  tlan |tlān| (o su variante  lan |lān|), en los gentilicios correspondientes se quita este sufijo y se agrega el sufijo  teca |tēca| más el sufijo absolutivo  tl |tl| en el singular y |h| en el plural:

• Tepotzotlan |tepotzohtlān| > tepotzotecatl |tepotzohtēcatl| ((|tepotzohtlān| – |tlān|) + |tēca| + |tl|) > tepotzoteca |tepotzohtēcah| ((|tepotzohtlān| – |tlān|) + |tēca| + |h|);
• Tollan |tōllān| > toltecatl |tōltēcatl| ((|tōllān| – |lān|) + |tēca| + |tl|) > tolteca |tōltēcah| ((|tōllān| – |lān|) + |tēca| + |h|);
• Cholollan |cholōllān| > chololtecatl |cholōltēcatl| ((|cholōllān| – |lān|) + |tēca| + |tl|) > chololteca |cholōltēcah| ((|cholōllān| – |lān|) + |tēca| + |h|).
*****************************************************************

En los ejemplos anteriores no me metí con el análisis de los topónimos para no distraer al lector del asunto de los gentilicios. Me basé en las gramáticas de Andrews (2003: 507) y Carochi (2001: 218, 219; libro 3, capítulo 11), pues no hablo náhuatl.

Referencias

ANDREWS, J. Richard
1975 Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, Austin/Londres, University of Texas Press.
2003 Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press.

CAROCHI, Horacio
1645 Arte de la lengua mexicana con la declaración de los adverbios della, México, Juan Ruiz.
2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los Ángeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications.

KARTTUNEN, Frances
1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press.
1992 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, 2a. ed., Norman, University of Oklahoma Press.

A ver que dicen los demás listeros acerca de tu apellido materno.

Saludos desde Guanajuato,

David Wright

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Jacinto Acatecatl
Enviado el: martes, 2 de julio de 2013 04:15 p. m.
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3

hola buenos días a todos,me gustaría me ayudaran sobre mis apellidos, he esta investigando para poder averiguar sobre el significado de mis apellidos, hasta ahora tengo l o siguiente:
Acatecatl
Acatl=Caña/carrizoTekatl= tendido/ acostado/Durmiente(viga que sirbe de soporte)  
Namictle              
Mamiktel=  el que est en posibilidades de casarse (i tlanamiktel= su prometido)namike= yo estoy sediendo (ni namike) miktle= muertemamike= namikilistle-- encuentro

Estoy antento a las dudas, creiticas y comentarios
Atentamente:
Jacinto Acatecatl Namictle 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Tue Jul  2 22:52:28 2013
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (Baert Georges)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 00:52:28 +0200
Subject: Door, Puerta
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUL.2013.005228.0200.LAHUNIK.62@SKYNET.BE>

Aocmo ye nicmati.

Tlatzakoali (Xavier), calacohuyan (Susan) auh quiyahuitl (Michael).

Tlein niccuiz?

Lahun Ik 62

Baert Georges 

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul  3 02:18:29 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 22:18:29 -0400
Subject: Door, Puerta
In-Reply-To: <000601ce7776$d41475c0$7c3d6140$@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.221829.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Baert Georges <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>:

> Aocmo ye nicmati.
>
> Tlatzakoali (Xavier), calacohuyan (Susan) auh quiyahuitl (Michael).
>
> Tlein niccuiz?
>
> Lahun Ik 62
>
> Baert Georges
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>

Georges,

There's something wrong in the way you've spelled Susan's term.

I think quiyahuitl may indicate specifically the space rather than the 
wooden thing. Here are some other terms I have:

door  tlatzacuillotl.
door sill  cuauhpepechtli.
i close the door.  nicuauhtzatzacua

Michael


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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul  3 02:34:17 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 22:34:17 -0400
Subject: Door, Puerta
In-Reply-To: <20130702221829.u11ptvzneowc8gc4@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.223417.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>:

> Quoting Baert Georges <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>:
>
>> Aocmo ye nicmati.
>>
>> Tlatzakoali (Xavier), calacohuyan (Susan) auh quiyahuitl (Michael).
>>
>> Tlein niccuiz?
>>
>> Lahun Ik 62
>>
>> Baert Georges
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
> Georges,
>
> There's something wrong in the way you've spelled Susan's term.
>
> I think quiyahuitl



THIS OF COURSE SHOULD READ QUIYAHUATL.




may indicate specifically the space rather than
> the wooden thing. Here are some other terms I have:
>
> door  tlatzacuillotl.
> door sill  cuauhpepechtli.
> i close the door.  nicuauhtzatzacua
>
> Michael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul  3 02:33:17 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 22:33:17 -0400
Subject: Door, Puerta
In-Reply-To: <000601ce7776$d41475c0$7c3d6140$@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.223317.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Note also, Georges, that 'doorway' is quiya:huatl, not quiyahuitl or 
quiyahua:tl, which mean 'rainstorm'.

Michael




Quoting Baert Georges <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>:

> Aocmo ye nicmati.
>
> Tlatzakoali (Xavier), calacohuyan (Susan) auh quiyahuitl (Michael).
>
> Tlein niccuiz?
>
> Lahun Ik 62
>
> Baert Georges
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From susana at losrancheros.org  Wed Jul  3 08:50:26 2013
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 10:50:26 +0200
Subject: Door, Puerta
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUL.2013.105026.0200.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Georges,
My word was CALACOHUAYAN, not calacohuyan.
CALACOHUA is non-active of CALAQUI, to enter
-YAN denotes a customary place
hence, a place through which one customarily enters

Another term could be CALIXTLI (face/front of the house)

I don't know the term for the physical aspect of a door, but I imagine it
could be something having to do with wood, tree.... CUAHUITL.

Maybe some other listero who is expert in neologisms could help.

Susana


On 3 July 2013 04:33, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

>
>
> Note also, Georges, that 'doorway' is quiya:huatl, not quiyahuitl or
> quiyahua:tl, which mean 'rainstorm'.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Baert Georges <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>:
>
>  Aocmo ye nicmati.
>>
>> Tlatzakoali (Xavier), calacohuyan (Susan) auh quiyahuitl (Michael).
>>
>> Tlein niccuiz?
>>
>> Lahun Ik 62
>>
>> Baert Georges
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Jul  3 15:13:24 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 10:13:24 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUL.2013.101324.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Apreciado Jacinto:

Te pido una disculpa por lo complicado de mi último mensaje. Lo que pasa es que lo que no somos hablantes naturales tenemos que hacer todo un tango lingüístico para entender las cosas con un poco de precisión.

Sobre tu apellido materno, Namictle, vas bien. Intercambié un par de mensajes con Michael McCafferty fuera de la lista Nahuat-l y estamos de acuerdo en la factibilidad de una explicación hipotética.

En el diccionario de fray Alonso de Molina, de 1571 (y en algunos diccionarios de las variantes modernas, con variaciones, como el uso de prefijos posesivos) aparece la palabra namictli, "casado o casada". El cambio del sufijo absolutivo -tli por -tle no es raro cuando las palabras en náhuatl son prestados al castellano.

Dejando volar mi imaginación, pensé en el momento del registro de algún bebé, hijo de nahuahablantes  y antepasado tuyo, en una parroquia o registro civil, tal vez con la presencia de un intérprete. Después de apuntar el nombre del padre, pregunta el encargado del registro quién es la madre y alguien responde en náhuatl que es su esposa, para que quedara en claro que se tratara de un hijo legítimo, quedando "Namictle" en el registro, como apellido.

Más saludos,

David Wright

-----Mensaje original-----
De: David Wright [mailto:dcwright at prodigy.net.mx] 
Enviado el: martes, 2 de julio de 2013 05:49 p. m.
Para: 'Jacinto Acatecatl'
CC: Nahuat-l
Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3

Muy estimado Jacinto:

En cuanto a tu apellido Acatecatl, veo la lógica de tu análisis. Otra posibilidad es que signifique "persona de Acatlan", formándose de la palabra acatl |ācatl| + teca |tēca| + tl |tl|. Acatlan, por su parte, significa "lugar de carrizos", "junto a los carrizos" o "entre los carrizos". El plural sería acatecah |ācatēcah|) ((|ācatl| – |tl|) + teca |tēca| + |h|), "personas de Acatlan".

Estoy escribiendo cada palabra dos veces, la primera con la antigua ortografía tradicional (más o menos como la que usaba fray Alonso Molina en el siglo XVI) y la segunda, entre rayitas verticales, con la ortografía que propuso Richard Andrews en 1975 y que es usada por Frances Karttunen en su diccionario de 1983, que marca las vocales largas con rayitas horizontales y los saltillos con la letra |h|. Molina y otros autores del periodo Colonial no marcaba las vocales largas y rara vez escribía los saltillos. Escribir todo dos veces tal vez complica demasiado mi mensaje, pero es necesario para ver con precisión cómo se forman las palabras, por ejemplo para distinguir entre el sufijo locativo -tlan |tlān| y la posposición (llamado también palabra relacional) -tlan |tlan|, que tiene un significado similar pero se comporta de una manera distinta adentro de las palabras.

Hay varios sustantivos gentilicios que terminen en -tecatl | tēcatl| y que significan "persona de (algún lugar que termine con el sufijo locativo -tlan |tlān| o su variante -lan |lān|, que se usa cuando la raíz anterior termine con |l|)". Sigue un extracto de la segunda edición, inédita todavía, de mi libro Lectura del náhuatl. La primera edición no tiene el capítulo sobre gentilicios, el cual agregué después de que se imprimió, porque vi que a mis estudiantes les hacía falta para hacer bien sus traducciones de los textos en náhuatl del siglo XVI.

*****************************************************************
Cuando los topónimos llevan el sufijo locativo  tlan |tlān| (o su variante  lan |lān|), en los gentilicios correspondientes se quita este sufijo y se agrega el sufijo  teca |tēca| más el sufijo absolutivo  tl |tl| en el singular y |h| en el plural:

• Tepotzotlan |tepotzohtlān| > tepotzotecatl |tepotzohtēcatl| ((|tepotzohtlān| – |tlān|) + |tēca| + |tl|) > tepotzoteca |tepotzohtēcah| ((|tepotzohtlān| – |tlān|) + |tēca| + |h|);

• Tollan |tōllān| > toltecatl |tōltēcatl| ((|tōllān| – |lān|) + |tēca| + |tl|) > tolteca |tōltēcah| ((|tōllān| – |lān|) + |tēca| + |h|);

• Cholollan |cholōllān| > chololtecatl |cholōltēcatl| ((|cholōllān| – |lān|) + |tēca| + |tl|) > chololteca |cholōltēcah| ((|cholōllān| – |lān|) + |tēca| + |h|).
*****************************************************************

En los ejemplos anteriores no me metí con el análisis de los topónimos para no distraer al lector del asunto de los gentilicios. Me basé en las gramáticas de Andrews (2003: 507) y Carochi (2001: 218, 219; libro 3, capítulo 11), pues no hablo náhuatl.

Referencias

ANDREWS, J. Richard
1975 Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, Austin/Londres, University of Texas Press.
2003 Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press.

CAROCHI, Horacio
1645 Arte de la lengua mexicana con la declaración de los adverbios della, México, Juan Ruiz.
2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los Ángeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications.

KARTTUNEN, Frances
1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press.
1992 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, 2a. ed., Norman, University of Oklahoma Press.

A ver que dicen los demás listeros acerca de tu apellido materno.

Saludos desde Guanajuato,

David Wright

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Jacinto Acatecatl Enviado el: martes, 2 de julio de 2013 04:15 p. m.
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3

hola buenos días a todos,me gustaría me ayudaran sobre mis apellidos, he esta investigando para poder averiguar sobre el significado de mis apellidos, hasta ahora tengo l o siguiente:
Acatecatl
Acatl=Caña/carrizoTekatl= tendido/ acostado/Durmiente(viga que sirbe de soporte)  
Namictle              
Mamiktel=  el que est en posibilidades de casarse (i tlanamiktel= su prometido)namike= yo estoy sediendo (ni namike) miktle= muertemamike= namikilistle-- encuentro

Estoy antento a las dudas, creiticas y comentarios
Atentamente:
Jacinto Acatecatl Namictle 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Thu Jul  4 21:09:58 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 16:09:58 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 303, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1372870802.12061.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUL.2013.160958.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

Kaltempan, FRente a la casa, pero tambien, utiliza para referirse a la puesta.
el término Calacahayan me parece adecuado.
 		 	   		  
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Jul  5 01:21:59 2013
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 21:21:59 -0400
Subject: REPLY: Scatter shot questions
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUL.2013.212159.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

> From: Gordon Whittaker <gwhitta4 at gmail.com>
> Date: 28 June 2013 22:57:06 CEST
> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: Re: scatter-shot questions: Moctezuma and co., malinalli, and
Chimalma(n)
>

> Dear Ben,
>
> Thanks for your questions (and David, Michael and John, for your
comments). Here
are a few reflections of my own, for what they're worth:
>
> 1)  What's the correct spelling of the name behind the horrendously garbled
"Montezuma" / "Moctezuma" variants?
>
> As has already been suggested by my colleagues, the name is construed
from a verb
with embedded noun. The verb is indeed mo-zo:ma (o: here is equivalent to the
vowel o with a macron over it for length) "to frown with severity,
displeasure, or
anger; be (or grow) angry". The embedded noun is most frequently written
either
te:cuh- (my favorite) or te:uc- (more common these days) "lord", spelling
conventions which, unfortunately, often cause beginners to mispronounce the
sequence as te-ku and te-uk, respectively! The combination of verb with
embedded
noun yields a so-called sentence name "He is (or Was) Severe Like a Lord",
which
is less a character statement with regard to two Aztec emperors and a
migration-period lord than to the sun, which was aptly so named at its midday
zenith. One can still debate on the question as to whether the name is
formed on
the present (in which case it would be Mote:cuhzo:ma and the like) or
preterite
tense (Mote:cuhzo:ma' with a final glottal stop written either ' or h, when
written at all).
>
> 2) The plural of malinalli?
>
> It's the same, whether singular or plural in meaning. Inanimate nouns
are left in
the singular in 16th-century Nahuatl. These days, however, they are often
pluralized on the analogy of Spanish.
>
> 3) The meaning of Chimalma vs. Chimalman?
>
> These usually refer to one of two legendary persons, the mother of Nacxitl
Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl or a female migration-period leader of the Mexitin,
so one
form probably underlies both spellings. In alphabetic texts,
syllable-final n can
be left off where required and added where not, similar (and related) to the
pattern in Nahuatl glyphic writing. Thus, the name can be analyzed in a
number of
ways, depending on the phonetic shape of the original. If Chimalman, then
it can
be one of three sentence names (of the "(He) Dances With Wolves" type):
>     Chi:mal-ma "She Captures Shields" (or Chi:mal-ma' "She Has Captured
Shields"),
>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Laid Out Shields" (if from mana), or
>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Spread Out Like a Shield" (if from mani).
>
> Alternatively, if a noun compound, the name can be construed as
>     Chi:mal-ma "Shield Hand".
> The nominal suffix can be left off on names: cf. Acamapich(tli) and
Axayaca(tl).
So a form Chimalmaitl is unnecessary.
>
> When writing these forms outside of a Nahuatl text (e.g. in an English
novel) you
can drop the macrons (here the colons) and the glo'l stops, as many Nahua
have
done and still do.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Best wishes,
> Gordon
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Gordon Whittaker
> Professor of Anthropology and Indigenous American Studies
> Dept. of Romance Philology / Institute of Ethnology
> University of Goettingen
> Germany
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jul  5 01:53:10 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 21:53:10 -0400
Subject: REPLY: Scatter shot questions
In-Reply-To: <ef26a34831da7195262ccc951a1a739a.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUL.2013.215310.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>:

>
>> From: Gordon Whittaker <gwhitta4 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 28 June 2013 22:57:06 CEST
>> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>> Subject: Re: scatter-shot questions: Moctezuma and co., malinalli, and
> Chimalma(n)
>>
>
>> Dear Ben,
>>
>> Thanks for your questions (and David, Michael and John, for your
> comments). Here
> are a few reflections of my own, for what they're worth:
>>
>> 1)  What's the correct spelling of the name behind the horrendously garbled
> "Montezuma" / "Moctezuma" variants?
>>
>> As has already been suggested by my colleagues, the name is construed
> from a verb
> with embedded noun. The verb is indeed mo-zo:ma (o: here is equivalent to the
> vowel o with a macron over it for length) "to frown with severity,
> displeasure, or
> anger; be (or grow) angry". The embedded noun is most frequently written
> either
> te:cuh- (my favorite) or te:uc- (more common these days) "lord", spelling
> conventions which, unfortunately, often cause beginners to mispronounce the
> sequence as te-ku and te-uk, respectively!

Hi, Gordon,

Yes, it's definitely a messy orthographical challenge to write the 
actual morpheme /te:kw-/ 'lord'.

The combination of verb with
> embedded
> noun yields a so-called sentence name "He is (or Was) Severe Like a Lord",
> which
> is less a character statement with regard to two Aztec emperors and a
> migration-period lord than to the sun, which was aptly so named at its midday
> zenith.

Tlazohcamati miac. Ahmo nicmatia inin tlamantli.


Michael






One can still debate on the question as to whether the name is
> formed on
> the present (in which case it would be Mote:cuhzo:ma and the like) or
> preterite
> tense (Mote:cuhzo:ma' with a final glottal stop written either ' or h, when
> written at all).
>>
>> 2) The plural of malinalli?
>>
>> It's the same, whether singular or plural in meaning. Inanimate nouns
> are left in
> the singular in 16th-century Nahuatl. These days, however, they are often
> pluralized on the analogy of Spanish.
>>
>> 3) The meaning of Chimalma vs. Chimalman?
>>
>> These usually refer to one of two legendary persons, the mother of Nacxitl
> Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl or a female migration-period leader of the Mexitin,
> so one
> form probably underlies both spellings. In alphabetic texts,
> syllable-final n can
> be left off where required and added where not, similar (and related) to the
> pattern in Nahuatl glyphic writing. Thus, the name can be analyzed in a
> number of
> ways, depending on the phonetic shape of the original. If Chimalman, then
> it can
> be one of three sentence names (of the "(He) Dances With Wolves" type):
>>     Chi:mal-ma "She Captures Shields" (or Chi:mal-ma' "She Has Captured
> Shields"),
>>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Laid Out Shields" (if from mana), or
>>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Spread Out Like a Shield" (if from mani).
>>
>> Alternatively, if a noun compound, the name can be construed as
>>     Chi:mal-ma "Shield Hand".
>> The nominal suffix can be left off on names: cf. Acamapich(tli) and
> Axayaca(tl).
> So a form Chimalmaitl is unnecessary.
>>
>> When writing these forms outside of a Nahuatl text (e.g. in an English
> novel) you
> can drop the macrons (here the colons) and the glo'l stops, as many Nahua
> have
> done and still do.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Gordon
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Gordon Whittaker
>> Professor of Anthropology and Indigenous American Studies
>> Dept. of Romance Philology / Institute of Ethnology
>> University of Goettingen
>> Germany
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jul  5 01:56:50 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 21:56:50 -0400
Subject: REPLY: Scatter shot questions
In-Reply-To: <ef26a34831da7195262ccc951a1a739a.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUL.2013.215650.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Gordon,

And I should have added that the w in /te:kw-/ is a raised w.


wiipaci,

Michael




Quoting "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>:

>
>> From: Gordon Whittaker <gwhitta4 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 28 June 2013 22:57:06 CEST
>> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>> Subject: Re: scatter-shot questions: Moctezuma and co., malinalli, and
> Chimalma(n)
>>
>
>> Dear Ben,
>>
>> Thanks for your questions (and David, Michael and John, for your
> comments). Here
> are a few reflections of my own, for what they're worth:
>>
>> 1)  What's the correct spelling of the name behind the horrendously garbled
> "Montezuma" / "Moctezuma" variants?
>>
>> As has already been suggested by my colleagues, the name is construed
> from a verb
> with embedded noun. The verb is indeed mo-zo:ma (o: here is equivalent to the
> vowel o with a macron over it for length) "to frown with severity,
> displeasure, or
> anger; be (or grow) angry". The embedded noun is most frequently written
> either
> te:cuh- (my favorite) or te:uc- (more common these days) "lord", spelling
> conventions which, unfortunately, often cause beginners to mispronounce the
> sequence as te-ku and te-uk, respectively! The combination of verb with
> embedded
> noun yields a so-called sentence name "He is (or Was) Severe Like a Lord",
> which
> is less a character statement with regard to two Aztec emperors and a
> migration-period lord than to the sun, which was aptly so named at its midday
> zenith. One can still debate on the question as to whether the name is
> formed on
> the present (in which case it would be Mote:cuhzo:ma and the like) or
> preterite
> tense (Mote:cuhzo:ma' with a final glottal stop written either ' or h, when
> written at all).
>>
>> 2) The plural of malinalli?
>>
>> It's the same, whether singular or plural in meaning. Inanimate nouns
> are left in
> the singular in 16th-century Nahuatl. These days, however, they are often
> pluralized on the analogy of Spanish.
>>
>> 3) The meaning of Chimalma vs. Chimalman?
>>
>> These usually refer to one of two legendary persons, the mother of Nacxitl
> Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl or a female migration-period leader of the Mexitin,
> so one
> form probably underlies both spellings. In alphabetic texts,
> syllable-final n can
> be left off where required and added where not, similar (and related) to the
> pattern in Nahuatl glyphic writing. Thus, the name can be analyzed in a
> number of
> ways, depending on the phonetic shape of the original. If Chimalman, then
> it can
> be one of three sentence names (of the "(He) Dances With Wolves" type):
>>     Chi:mal-ma "She Captures Shields" (or Chi:mal-ma' "She Has Captured
> Shields"),
>>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Laid Out Shields" (if from mana), or
>>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Spread Out Like a Shield" (if from mani).
>>
>> Alternatively, if a noun compound, the name can be construed as
>>     Chi:mal-ma "Shield Hand".
>> The nominal suffix can be left off on names: cf. Acamapich(tli) and
> Axayaca(tl).
> So a form Chimalmaitl is unnecessary.
>>
>> When writing these forms outside of a Nahuatl text (e.g. in an English
> novel) you
> can drop the macrons (here the colons) and the glo'l stops, as many Nahua
> have
> done and still do.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Gordon
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Gordon Whittaker
>> Professor of Anthropology and Indigenous American Studies
>> Dept. of Romance Philology / Institute of Ethnology
>> University of Goettingen
>> Germany
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
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From bleeming at gmail.com  Tue Jul  9 14:48:16 2013
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 10:48:16 -0400
Subject: regarding: in nontlan in itzcatlan
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUL.2013.104816.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

amigos listeros/as,

In Garibay's "Historia de la literatura Náhuatl" he lists the difrasismo
"in nontlan in itzcatlan" and translates it as "lugar de mudez y frío =
región de los muertos."  He cites the Colloquios as the source (I don't
have access right now to the text or else I would check it, although a
keyword search on Google books didn't return either "nontlan" or
"itzcatlan"; anyone out there have it handy?).

The question of "nontlan" seems straight forward, from no:n-tli "someone
mute."  However, I'm struggling with "itzcatlan."  I am assuming that it
derives from i:tz-tli "obsidian" which in turn is at the root of i:tztic
"something cold" and i:tztiya "to get cold."  However, I'm wondering about
the -ca-.  Is this just Andrews' "obsolete noun stem *(ca:)-tl" which he
states is only found in combined forms?

As for the meaning, I get it (and I love it!)  However, has anyone
encountered this particular difrasismo in any sources other than the
Colloquios (if it's even there at all)?

Thanks,

Ben

-- 
Ben Leeming
PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Jul  9 20:16:28 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 16:16:28 -0400
Subject: regarding: in nontlan in itzcatlan
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErVBJCreYw5EyLOP5+Ogy4Nw2HwOjaau1R2NQ6BKjC=wKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUL.2013.161628.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:

> amigos listeros/as,
>
> In Garibay's "Historia de la literatura Náhuatl" he lists the difrasismo
> "in nontlan in itzcatlan" and translates it as "lugar de mudez y frío =
> región de los muertos."  He cites the Colloquios as the source (I don't
> have access right now to the text or else I would check it, although a
> keyword search on Google books didn't return either "nontlan" or
> "itzcatlan"; anyone out there have it handy?).
>
> The question of "nontlan" seems straight forward, from no:n-tli "someone
> mute."  However, I'm struggling with "itzcatlan."  I am assuming that it
> derives from i:tz-tli "obsidian" which in turn is at the root of i:tztic
> "something cold" and i:tztiya "to get cold."  However, I'm wondering about
> the -ca-.  Is this just Andrews' "obsolete noun stem *(ca:)-tl" which he
> states is only found in combined forms?

Hi, Ben

Here's what I see:

no:ntli is a person who can't talk. no:ntlan would be "place of the mute ones"

itzca:tl = something associated with obsidian, and thus cold. itzcatlan 
would be "place of the being of obsidian," or of cold.

Michael


>
> As for the meaning, I get it (and I love it!)  However, has anyone
> encountered this particular difrasismo in any sources other than the
> Colloquios (if it's even there at all)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Tue Jul  9 21:20:03 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 16:20:03 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 304, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1373389201.8083.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUL.2013.162003.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

Efectivamente, Nontle significa, persona que no habla y en el nahuatl moderno aún se utiliza para llamar a una persona con esta discapacidd, tambíen se le llma nontle a aquella persona que no se niega a contestar.
Para la otra palabra no podría ayudar, para decir lugar de frio yo diría, tlaseseyatlan, y para referirme a lugar de sangre, diría tlaistlan/ istlan, y para lugar de muerte: miktlan, 
La palabra itzcatlan, tendría sentido si cambiara a Tlaistlan/ Tlayestla (lugar de Sangre)o también se debe considerar la palabra ichkatlan como lugar de carneros/chivos.
Esta es mi umilde aportación, ojala sirva de algo.}Atentamente:
Jacinto Acatecatl.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 10:48:16 -0400
> From: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] regarding: in nontlan in itzcatlan
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAN_9ErVBJCreYw5EyLOP5+Ogy4Nw2HwOjaau1R2NQ6BKjC=wKA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> amigos listeros/as,
> 
> In Garibay's "Historia de la literatura Náhuatl" he lists the difrasismo
> "in nontlan in itzcatlan" and translates it as "lugar de mudez y frío =
> región de los muertos."  He cites the Colloquios as the source (I don't
> have access right now to the text or else I would check it, although a
> keyword search on Google books didn't return either "nontlan" or
> "itzcatlan"; anyone out there have it handy?).
> 
> The question of "nontlan" seems straight forward, from no:n-tli "someone
> mute."  However, I'm struggling with "itzcatlan."  I am assuming that it
> derives from i:tz-tli "obsidian" which in turn is at the root of i:tztic
> "something cold" and i:tztiya "to get cold."  However, I'm wondering about
> the -ca-.  Is this just Andrews' "obsolete noun stem *(ca:)-tl" which he
> states is only found in combined forms?
> 
> As for the meaning, I get it (and I love it!)  However, has anyone
> encountered this particular difrasismo in any sources other than the
> Colloquios (if it's even there at all)?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ben
> 
> -- 
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 304, Issue 1
> ***************************************
 		 	   		  
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From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Wed Jul 10 22:59:22 2013
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (Baert Georges)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 00:59:22 +0200
Subject: Itzcatlan
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUL.2013.005922.0200.LAHUNIK.62@SKYNET.BE>

Nahuatl Digest Vol.301, Issue2, Message 1

Itzcatlan

The stem itz or itzco:a:, used in compositions refers to a obsidian
decoration motif.

This is a stem variant of the verb itta, to see.

The relation with obsidian is probably one can see himself in a piece of
obsidian.

Itzcac, short form of itzcactli, sandals with obsidian motifs.

They were carried by certain Gods like Tezcatlipoca or Chiucna:hui
Itzcuintli (Sah.IX, cap.17).

Or certain palaces, itzco:a:calli.

Or certain coats, itzco:a:yoh.

The motif itself is called, tlaitzco:a:ihcuilo:lli.

See SGAII, 435, Seler says that this motifs are obsidian serpents, itzcoatl,
a mythical figure.

Itztli, is a fragment of obsidian.

Itzla:n, is a possible place, with the locative -tla:n.

It's a place in the province of Cuauhua:huac (Cuernacaca), and could also be
seen as a place where obsidian was found.

Itz- in compositions doesn't mean de facto cold.

Itz-coatl is a sort of fish.

Itz-cuintli, dog, could also mean brutality or cruelty

The form itz-catlan is very difficult to explain.

Lahun Ik 62

Baert Georges 

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From pacoatlicue at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 11 01:34:23 2013
From: pacoatlicue at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?UGFsb21hIFJvZHLtZ3Vleg==?=)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 22:34:23 -0300
Subject: about directional particles in Nahuatl
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.223423.0300.PACOATLICUE@HOTMAIL.COM>

Hello,
My name is Paloma Rodríguez. I'm a linguist and I'm about to start my second year of a second Master's degree in Guadalajara Mexico. I've been working with Nahuatl for 4 years, since my first Master. 
For my thesis I plan to analyse directional particles in Nahuatl to try to understand their different functions and meanings. I've already read: Olmos, Carochi, Lockhart, Launey and Andrews. And it would help me a lot if you could send  me or suggest me some bibliography related to this topic. 
Besides, I'm planning to do a PhD in Nahuatl linguistics in USA. I wonder if you could tell me about the universities where there are Nahuatl researchers in linguistics or other fields. 
I thank you in advance for your attention.
Regards,
Paloma Rodríguez 		 	   		  
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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Thu Jul 11 21:55:51 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:55:51 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 304, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1373562002.15502.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUL.2013.165551.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

Felicidades  Paloma Rodríguez, es bueno saber que haya mas investigadores que le dediquen a un lengua indígena, me pongo a tus ordenes en lo poco que te pueda ayudar, por mi parte no soy linguista ni antropologo, mi formación es en sociología pero eh dado clases de nahúatl y soy Nahuablante de la Zona centro del Estado de Veracruz.
Excelente día.
Jacinto Acatecatl N.






> From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 304, Issue 3
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 12:00:02 -0500
> 
> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Itzcatlan (Baert Georges)
>    2. about directional particles in Nahuatl (Paloma Rodríguez)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 00:59:22 +0200
> From: "Baert Georges" <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>
> To: "Nahuatl List" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Itzcatlan
> Message-ID: <000c01ce7dc1$1e092900$5a1b7b00$@skynet.be>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Nahuatl Digest Vol.301, Issue2, Message 1
> 
> Itzcatlan
> 
> The stem itz or itzco:a:, used in compositions refers to a obsidian
> decoration motif.
> 
> This is a stem variant of the verb itta, to see.
> 
> The relation with obsidian is probably one can see himself in a piece of
> obsidian.
> 
> Itzcac, short form of itzcactli, sandals with obsidian motifs.
> 
> They were carried by certain Gods like Tezcatlipoca or Chiucna:hui
> Itzcuintli (Sah.IX, cap.17).
> 
> Or certain palaces, itzco:a:calli.
> 
> Or certain coats, itzco:a:yoh.
> 
> The motif itself is called, tlaitzco:a:ihcuilo:lli.
> 
> See SGAII, 435, Seler says that this motifs are obsidian serpents, itzcoatl,
> a mythical figure.
> 
> Itztli, is a fragment of obsidian.
> 
> Itzla:n, is a possible place, with the locative -tla:n.
> 
> It's a place in the province of Cuauhua:huac (Cuernacaca), and could also be
> seen as a place where obsidian was found.
> 
> Itz- in compositions doesn't mean de facto cold.
> 
> Itz-coatl is a sort of fish.
> 
> Itz-cuintli, dog, could also mean brutality or cruelty
> 
> The form itz-catlan is very difficult to explain.
> 
> Lahun Ik 62
> 
> Baert Georges 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 22:34:23 -0300
> From: Paloma Rodríguez <pacoatlicue at hotmail.com>
> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] about directional particles in Nahuatl
> Message-ID: <BAY167-W7604E9A909EB78B01A29CAB17B0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hello,
> My name is Paloma Rodríguez. I'm a linguist and I'm about to start my second year of a second Master's degree in Guadalajara Mexico. I've been working with Nahuatl for 4 years, since my first Master. 
> For my thesis I plan to analyse directional particles in Nahuatl to try to understand their different functions and meanings. I've already read: Olmos, Carochi, Lockhart, Launey and Andrews. And it would help me a lot if you could send  me or suggest me some bibliography related to this topic. 
> Besides, I'm planning to do a PhD in Nahuatl linguistics in USA. I wonder if you could tell me about the universities where there are Nahuatl researchers in linguistics or other fields. 
> I thank you in advance for your attention.
> Regards,
> Paloma Rodríguez 		 	   		  
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 304, Issue 3
> ***************************************
 		 	   		  
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From susana at losrancheros.org  Tue Jul 23 08:37:25 2013
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:37:25 +0200
Subject: xitomatl
Message-ID: <TUE.23.JUL.2013.103725.0200.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Niltze nocniuhhuan,
I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of the 
word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many different (and 
often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are almost omnipresent.

XICTLI, navel
XITOMA, peel off
TOMAHUAC, fat

Please could I have your opinion?

Tlazohcamati,
Susana-Xochitl

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Jul 23 19:08:24 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 15:08:24 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <51EE40C5.2090503@losrancheros.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.JUL.2013.150824.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:

> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
> almost omnipresent.
>
> XICTLI, navel
> XITOMA, peel off
> TOMAHUAC, fat
>


This is a good question, Susana.

xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.

Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but I 
don't think so.

It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a morpheme 
with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to peeling. The 
toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds like people 
skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.

Michael









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From idiez at me.com  Wed Jul 24 02:13:41 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 22:13:41 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <20130723150824.5qj0ve0a4gcsw4o8@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.JUL.2013.221341.0400.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl" into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get "xiuhtomatl". 
	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
John

On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> 
>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>> almost omnipresent.
>> 
>> XICTLI, navel
>> XITOMA, peel off
>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>> 
> 
> 
> This is a good question, Susana.
> 
> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
> 
> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but I don't think so.
> 
> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 24 10:16:17 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 06:16:17 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <51EF86D8.4020707@losrancheros.org>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.061617.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Problem with this analysis is what happened to the /w/?

Michael

Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:

> Thank you!!
> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>
>
>
> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>> "xiuhtomatl".
>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>> John
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>
>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>
>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>
>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>> I don't think so.
>>>
>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 24 10:20:30 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 06:20:30 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <51EF86D8.4020707@losrancheros.org>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.062030.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Also curious about how one gets from toma:hui to tomatl.

Michael

Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:

> Thank you!!
> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>
>
>
> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>> "xiuhtomatl".
>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>> John
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>
>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>
>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>
>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>> I don't think so.
>>>
>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 24 10:48:02 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 06:48:02 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <51EF86D8.4020707@losrancheros.org>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.064802.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not 
green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.

Ever curious,

Michael

Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:

> Thank you!!
> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>
>
>
> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>> "xiuhtomatl".
>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>> John
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>
>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>
>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>
>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>> I don't think so.
>>>
>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>



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From susana at losrancheros.org  Wed Jul 24 07:48:40 2013
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:48:40 +0200
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <97DF0ACD-AEA9-4D5A-860C-856F76A2B9AE@me.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.094840.0200.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Thank you!!
so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl = 
intensely-swollen (thing)?



On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl" into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get "xiuhtomatl".
> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
> John
>
> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>
>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>
>>> XICTLI, navel
>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>
>>
>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>
>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>
>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but I don't think so.
>>
>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Wed Jul 24 14:29:43 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:29:43 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 305, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1374598802.6384.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.092943.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

Es la misma traducción que yo le podría dar, considero que no hay ningún absurdo, 
Xi de  xiktli (Ombligo)Toma de momahuak (gordo)
No soy historiador  ni linguista, pero del concepto ombligo pudieron partir muchas palabras que deriban de esa parte del cuerpo, ¿porque? eso no lo sé.
Ejemplo de lo antes mencionado  son:
Xitontik, gordo (despectivo)xikamatl, Jicamaxikalli, jícara
Esta es mipequeña aportación.
Saludos Jacinto. 		 	   		  
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From idiez at me.com  Wed Jul 24 15:23:19 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:23:19 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <20130724064802.fw6faut34wosc48g@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.112319.0400.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Piyali All,
1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.
2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form, although it might have something to do with the fact that syllable-final w does´t occur in Spanish.
3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.
John

On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
> 
> Ever curious,
> 
> Michael
> 
> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> 
>> Thank you!!
>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>>> "xiuhtomatl".
>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>>> John
>>> 
>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>> 
>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>> 
>>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>> 
>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>> 
>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>>> I don't think so.
>>>> 
>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>> 
>>>> Michael
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 

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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Jul 24 15:26:12 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:26:12 -0500
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <20130724061617.xwpj05d68scoccsg@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.102612.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Listeros:

 

I looked hard for cases of assimilation /w/ + /t/ > /t/, to no avail. I
found several involving /w/ (see below), but none with /w/ + /t/. That seems
to weaken the /šiwitl/ hypothesis. There may be a problem with vowel length
(/i/ versus /i:/) as well, if /xi:tomatl/ does indeed have a long /i:/, as
Karttunen reconstructs it in her dictionary.

 

/w/ + /m/ > /mm/

/w/ + /p/ > /pp/

/tl/ + /w/ > /lw/

/ts/ + /w/ > / ts /

/č/ + /w/ > /č/

/n/ + /w/ > /w/

/m/ + /w/ > /w/

/w/ + /w/ > /w/

 

I couldn't find any cases of /k/ + /t/ > /t/ either, so that seems to put
the /ši:ktli/ hypothesis on shaky ground also. For years I thought this was
the etymology, but had never really thought about it critically.

 

I hope all these characters survive the trip through cyberspace.

 

Saludos,

 

David Wright

 

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de Michael McCafferty
Enviado el: miércoles, 24 de julio de 2013 05:16 a. m.
Para: Susana Moraleda
CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] xitomatl

 

 

Problem with this analysis is what happened to the /w/?

 

Michael

 

Quoting Susana Moraleda < <mailto:susana at losrancheros.org>
susana at losrancheros.org>:

 

> Thank you!!

> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl = 

> intensely-swollen (thing)?

> 

> 

> 

> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:

>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,

>>           I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here
goes.

>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can 

>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".

>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This 

>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a 

>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"

>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get 

>> "xiuhtomatl".

>>           This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things,
so a 

>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.

>> John

>> 

>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty 

>> < <mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu> mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

>> 

>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda < <mailto:susana at losrancheros.org>
susana at losrancheros.org>:

>>> 

>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,

>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology 

>>>> of the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many 

>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that 

>>>> are almost omnipresent.

>>>> 

>>>> XICTLI, navel

>>>> XITOMA, peel off

>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat

>>>> 

>>> 

>>> This is a good question, Susana.

>>> 

>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.

>>> 

>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but I 

>>> don't think so.

>>> 

>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a morpheme 

>>> with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to peeling. The 

>>> toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds like people 

>>> skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.

>>> 

>>> Michael

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> _______________________________________________

>>>> Nahuatl mailing list

>>>>  <mailto:Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

>>>>  <http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

>>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> Nahuatl mailing list

>>>  <mailto:Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

>>>  <http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

> 

> 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

Nahuatl mailing list

 <mailto:Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

 <http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Jul 24 15:34:00 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:34:00 -0500
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <4E925870-7021-4995-B5CC-05904950D48C@me.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.103400.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

P. S.

In Alexis Wimmer's online dictionary (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/nahuatl.page.html) we find instances of "xitomatl", without the /w/, in the Florentine Codex:

****************************************************************
.XITOMATL:
 xitomatl: 
(esp jitomate) est la tomate telle qu'on la connait communément en Europe. (La "tomātl" est une espèce plus petite). Launey II 296. 
Citée en Sah1,47. Sah 10,68. 
Citée dans une liste de ce qui pousse en abondance à Tlalocan. Sah3,47 = Launey II 296. 
 quitōcaqueh in tlaōlli in huauhtli in etl in āyōtl in chīlcotl in xitomatl , ils ont semé du maïs, de l'amarante, des haricots, des courges, du piment vert, des tomates - sembraron maiz, bledo, frijol, calabaza, 'chile' verde, 'jitomate'. Cron.Mexicayotl 38. 
 yōllohpiciltic iuhquin xitomatl , les graines sont minuscules comme (celles) de la tomate - the centers are tiny like tomato (seeds). 
Est dit de la figue de barbarie, azcanochtli. Sah11,124. 
 in cequintin xitomatl ahnōzo izhuatomatl in concāhuayah nāuhtetl , les uns laissaient des tomates ou de petites tomates au nombre de quatre - some left four large tomatoes, or else small ones. Il s'agit d'un acte rituel. Sah2,80.
****************************************************************

I can't find this word in Carochi's Arte.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de John Sullivan
Enviado el: miércoles, 24 de julio de 2013 10:23 a. m.
Para: Michael McCafferty
CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] xitomatl

Piyali All,
1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.
2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form, although it might have something to do with the fact that syllable-final w does´t occur in Spanish.
3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.
John

On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
> 
> Ever curious,
> 
> Michael
> 
> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> 
>> Thank you!!
>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl = 
>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can 
>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This 
>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a 
>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get 
>>> "xiuhtomatl".
>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a 
>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>>> John
>>> 
>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty 
>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>> 
>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology 
>>>>> of the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many 
>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that 
>>>>> are almost omnipresent.
>>>>> 
>>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>> 
>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>> 
>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but 
>>>> I don't think so.
>>>> 
>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a 
>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to 
>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds 
>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>> 
>>>> Michael
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
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From ipedrozar at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 15:35:28 2013
From: ipedrozar at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Iv=E1n_Pedroza?=)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:35:28 -0500
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <20130724064802.fw6faut34wosc48g@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.103528.0500.IPEDROZAR@GMAIL.COM>

I agree with Michael,  and i'd rather explore (again) something about
xictli and the appareance of jitomates.

2013/7/24 Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>

> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not green.
> tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
>
> Ever curious,
>
>
> Michael
>
> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>
>  Thank you!!
>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>>
>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>>         I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here
>>> goes.
>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>>> "xiuhtomatl".
>>>         This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so
>>> a
>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>>
>>>>  Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>>
>>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>>
>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>>
>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>>> I don't think so.
>>>>
>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>
>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>



-- 
Iván Pedroza
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 24 15:28:41 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:28:41 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <4E925870-7021-4995-B5CC-05904950D48C@me.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.112841.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:

> Piyali All,
> 1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.


This is simply not true, John. Both exist, as does a reflexive form 
with tomahua.


> 2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using
> "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form,
> although it might have something to do with the fact that
> syllable-final w does´t occur in Spanish.

I can't buy this explanation. Can you send me a sound file that shows this?


> 3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and
> that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.

Then, why are we calling the big red ones "green".

Michael


> John
>
> On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not
>> green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
>>
>> Ever curious,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>
>>> Thank you!!
>>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
>>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>>>> "xiuhtomatl".
>>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>>>
>>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>>>> I don't think so.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 24 15:37:09 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:37:09 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <4E925870-7021-4995-B5CC-05904950D48C@me.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.113709.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

But back to my original question, John. How do you get tomatl from 
tomahua? I don't understand that change. I can see how tomatl could 
come from toma.

I found my copy of Karttunen's dictionary a little while ago and it 
appears that she supports my take on the etymology of the term 
xitomatl. Check out pages 326. Also, I just noticed that she has 
tomahu(i) with a citation.


Michael


Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:

> Piyali All,
> 1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.
> 2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using
> "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form,
> although it might have something to do with the fact that
> syllable-final w does´t occur in Spanish.
> 3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and
> that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.
> John
>
> On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not
>> green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
>>
>> Ever curious,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>
>>> Thank you!!
>>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
>>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>>>> "xiuhtomatl".
>>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>>>
>>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>>>> I don't think so.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



_______________________________________________
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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 18:16:56 2013
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:16:56 -0400
Subject: tomatl
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.141656.0400.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

The etymology John proposes is not viable, but has all the looks of a folk
etymology.

The xi: in* xi:tomatl* is long, the a: in *toma:wa* is long (but I believe
this is an effect of the addition of the verbal suffix -*wa*).
(*toma:wi*does in fact exist but has the same intransitive meaning as
* toma:wa*)

* xi:toma* "to peel to scrape" which has long i: and short a, has the exact
form we a looking for and does not require us to mysteriously drop -w- or
-k- as the proposed derivations with *xik*- or *xiw*- would.

Furthermore it is the case that red tomatos differ from green tomatoes in
the fact that they are usually peeled before being used in Mexican cuisine.
>From the green tomato only the husk is removed, but most frequently red
tomatoes are either boiled or toasted and peeled before being ground into
salsa. It could also simply mean that it doesn't have the husk as the green
tomato does, so that it is already naturally "peeled".

So on the weight of the evidence *xitoma *is the best fit for a relation to
*xi:tomatl*.

The problem is that 1. *xi:tomatl* also seems to be derived from *tomatl*.
2. that we dont know is *xi:toma* is derived from *xi:tomatl *or the other
way round.

I would propose the following solution:

There is a root xi: that has to do with peeling. It is found in the verb
xi:ma "to shave, to peel, to make smooth". Karttunen enters it in her
dictionary as the hypothetical root *xi:p- only found as a bound morpheme
and with the variant xi: meaning "peeling, flaying, shaving"

I think xi:tomatl is  derived from tomatl with that prefix. So that Michael
is right it is a tomato that is peeled.

Best,
Magnus





-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From nosduhluap at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 24 17:29:15 2013
From: nosduhluap at hotmail.com (Paul Hudson)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:29:15 -0500
Subject: xitomatl
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.122915.0500.NOSDUHLUAP@HOTMAIL.COM>

If its any help, the Diccionario del náhuatl en el español de México gives the origin of jitomate as the word xictomatl:
p. 73... Xic-tómatl. De xictli, ombligo, tómatl, tomate.
Tomate would refer to the little green fruit (Physalis philadelphica), sometimes called tomatillo, although what the connection is, I have no idea.

Paul 		 	   		  
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From rbenavides05 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 24 18:14:27 2013
From: rbenavides05 at hotmail.com (Rafael Benavides)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:14:27 -0500
Subject: Xitomatl (Rafael Benavides)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1374685201.14117.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.131427.0500.RBENAVIDES05@HOTMAIL.COM>

Hi guys,
Doesn't xi also mean big when it's attached at the beginning of the word? So wouldn't Xi-to/um(a)-tl mean a big tomato? Tomatoes were, after all, domesticated from berry-like fruit that became larger and diversified. The tom(a) I think does refer to the undressing something, like the foreskin of the more primitive tomatoes, similar to the tomatillo. The xitomatl, or jitomate, would have thus been a very large version of the other tomatoes. So the Xi-tom(a)-tl would just mean big tomato.

Maybe I'm wrong, but hopefully someone else can clarify.

Saludos!
Rafael Benavides


> From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 305, Issue 4
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:00:01 -0500
> 
> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
> 	nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: xitomatl (Michael McCafferty)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:37:09 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] xitomatl
> Message-ID: <20130724113709.k8hiaycn40o0c4sc at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=ISO-8859-1;	format="flowed"
> 
> But back to my original question, John. How do you get tomatl from 
> tomahua? I don't understand that change. I can see how tomatl could 
> come from toma.
> 
> I found my copy of Karttunen's dictionary a little while ago and it 
> appears that she supports my take on the etymology of the term 
> xitomatl. Check out pages 326. Also, I just noticed that she has 
> tomahu(i) with a citation.
> 
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> 
> > Piyali All,
> > 1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.
> > 2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using
> > "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form,
> > although it might have something to do with the fact that
> > syllable-final w does´t occur in Spanish.
> > 3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and
> > that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.
> > John
> >
> > On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not
> >> green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
> >>
> >> Ever curious,
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> >>
> >>> Thank you!!
> >>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
> >>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
> >>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
> >>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
> >>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
> >>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
> >>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
> >>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
> >>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
> >>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
> >>>> "xiuhtomatl".
> >>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
> >>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
> >>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
> >>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
> >>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
> >>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
> >>>>>> almost omnipresent.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> XICTLI, navel
> >>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
> >>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
> >>>>> I don't think so.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
> >>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
> >>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
> >>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
> >>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
> >>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 305, Issue 4
> ***************************************
 		 	   		  
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From tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 26 06:32:34 2013
From: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com (De la Cruz)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 06:32:34 +0000
Subject: tomatl
In-Reply-To: <CAEj69czvDEWM7qB4Y2katwNUHZCs9zMSXSg79wka=33P1-rWzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUL.2013.063234.0000.TEPOXTECO3@HOTMAIL.COM>

Xiuhtomatlnozo Xihtomatl
Puede venir de xihtli/xiuhtli/xihuitl 'grande de edad o de tamaño' 
Otros ejemplos: 1. Xiuhtlacatl 'persona adulta'2. Xiuhcuahuitl 'árbol grande de muchos años'3. Xiuhpitzotl 'perco grande'

Considero que tomatl tiene estas dos raíces. 

 Saludos desde Chilangondía.
 Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca'UW 'Artes Liberales'
Victoriano de la Cruz Cruzvcruz at al.uw.edu.pl   



> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:16:56 -0400
> From: magnuspharao at gmail.com
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] tomatl
> 
> The etymology John proposes is not viable, but has all the looks of a folk
> etymology.
> 
> The xi: in* xi:tomatl* is long, the a: in *toma:wa* is long (but I believe
> this is an effect of the addition of the verbal suffix -*wa*).
> (*toma:wi*does in fact exist but has the same intransitive meaning as
> * toma:wa*)
> 
> * xi:toma* "to peel to scrape" which has long i: and short a, has the exact
> form we a looking for and does not require us to mysteriously drop -w- or
> -k- as the proposed derivations with *xik*- or *xiw*- would.
> 
> Furthermore it is the case that red tomatos differ from green tomatoes in
> the fact that they are usually peeled before being used in Mexican cuisine.
> From the green tomato only the husk is removed, but most frequently red
> tomatoes are either boiled or toasted and peeled before being ground into
> salsa. It could also simply mean that it doesn't have the husk as the green
> tomato does, so that it is already naturally "peeled".
> 
> So on the weight of the evidence *xitoma *is the best fit for a relation to
> *xi:tomatl*.
> 
> The problem is that 1. *xi:tomatl* also seems to be derived from *tomatl*.
> 2. that we dont know is *xi:toma* is derived from *xi:tomatl *or the other
> way round.
> 
> I would propose the following solution:
> 
> There is a root xi: that has to do with peeling. It is found in the verb
> xi:ma "to shave, to peel, to make smooth". Karttunen enters it in her
> dictionary as the hypothetical root *xi:p- only found as a bound morpheme
> and with the variant xi: meaning "peeling, flaying, shaving"
> 
> I think xi:tomatl is  derived from tomatl with that prefix. So that Michael
> is right it is a tomato that is peeled.
> 
> Best,
> Magnus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
> 
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
> 
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Fri Jul 26 17:25:14 2013
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 13:25:14 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 305, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1374858002.552.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUL.2013.132514.0400.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Lo siento pero no lo considero una derivacion probable. El uso de xihtli
como aumentativo se limita un ciertos variantes regionales y no se conoce
en la mayoria de los variantes del nahuatl, ni en la mayoria de las fuentes
coloniales. Sin embargo la palabra xi:tomatl se conoce en todos los
variantes y en todas las fuentes coloniales. Ademas como digo es claro que
en la mayoria de variantes y en la variante colonial la palabra  xi:tomatl
 tiene el primer vocal largo y no tiene aspiración glotal. Eso significa
que para creer en esa etimologia hay que primero creer que el variante de
la Huasteca donde existe esa derivacion es el variante originario de la
palabra xitomatl que despues se extendio a todos los demas variantes, y no
hay ninguna razon para pensar eso, y tambien hay que creer que la
derivacion augmentativo con "xiuh" es de gran antigüedad porque la
derivacion se tenia que extender a todos los variantes antes del tiempo
posclasico para poder explicar como la palabra se ha extendido del Nahuatl
a otros idiomas - y tampoco parece ser probable.

Me parece que estan intentando interpretar la etimologia de una palabra del
Nahuatl general y de gran antiguedad con procesos de derivacion que son
inovadoras en los variantes limitados que los tienen y que ni siquiera
explica bien el patron fonologica de la palabra. Eso no se puede considerar
mas de una etimologia popular sin peso academico.

Siempre hay que acordarse que porque una derivacion es posible y parece
plausible en su significado no significa que es real. Se requiere un
analisis riguroso comparativo que se basa en toda la evidencia y no solo en
un variante contemporaneo especifico. En este caso la evidencia completa
sugiere que no se deriva de una raiz xiuh- ni xic-.

Magnus


On 26 July 2013 13:00, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:

> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
>         nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: tomatl (De la Cruz)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: De la Cruz <tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com>
> To: Famsi <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 06:32:34 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tomatl
> Xiuhtomatlnozo Xihtomatl
> Puede venir de xihtli/xiuhtli/xihuitl 'grande de edad o de tamaño'
> Otros ejemplos: 1. Xiuhtlacatl 'persona adulta'2. Xiuhcuahuitl 'árbol
> grande de muchos años'3. Xiuhpitzotl 'perco grande'
>
> Considero que tomatl tiene estas dos raíces.
>
>  Saludos desde Chilangondía.
>  Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca'UW 'Artes Liberales'
> Victoriano de la Cruz Cruzvcruz at al.uw.edu.pl
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:16:56 -0400
> > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com
> > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > Subject: [Nahuat-l] tomatl
> >
> > The etymology John proposes is not viable, but has all the looks of a
> folk
> > etymology.
> >
> > The xi: in* xi:tomatl* is long, the a: in *toma:wa* is long (but I
> believe
> > this is an effect of the addition of the verbal suffix -*wa*).
> > (*toma:wi*does in fact exist but has the same intransitive meaning as
> > * toma:wa*)
> >
> > * xi:toma* "to peel to scrape" which has long i: and short a, has the
> exact
> > form we a looking for and does not require us to mysteriously drop -w- or
> > -k- as the proposed derivations with *xik*- or *xiw*- would.
> >
> > Furthermore it is the case that red tomatos differ from green tomatoes in
> > the fact that they are usually peeled before being used in Mexican
> cuisine.
> > From the green tomato only the husk is removed, but most frequently red
> > tomatoes are either boiled or toasted and peeled before being ground into
> > salsa. It could also simply mean that it doesn't have the husk as the
> green
> > tomato does, so that it is already naturally "peeled".
> >
> > So on the weight of the evidence *xitoma *is the best fit for a relation
> to
> > *xi:tomatl*.
> >
> > The problem is that 1. *xi:tomatl* also seems to be derived from
> *tomatl*.
> > 2. that we dont know is *xi:toma* is derived from *xi:tomatl *or the
> other
> > way round.
> >
> > I would propose the following solution:
> >
> > There is a root xi: that has to do with peeling. It is found in the verb
> > xi:ma "to shave, to peel, to make smooth". Karttunen enters it in her
> > dictionary as the hypothetical root *xi:p- only found as a bound morpheme
> > and with the variant xi: meaning "peeling, flaying, shaving"
> >
> > I think xi:tomatl is  derived from tomatl with that prefix. So that
> Michael
> > is right it is a tomato that is peeled.
> >
> > Best,
> > Magnus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Magnus Pharao Hansen
> > PhD. candidate
> > Department of Anthropology
> >
> > Brown University
> > 128 Hope St.
> > Providence, RI 02906
> >
> > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
> > US: 001 401 651 8413
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From clayton at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 31 21:23:49 2013
From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 17:23:49 -0400
Subject: tlaimetl
Message-ID: <WED.31.JUL.2013.172349.0400.CLAYTON@INDIANA.EDU>

Hello All,

     Joe and I have been working on a cluster of words which, so far, 
we have not been able to analyze completely into known pieces. The 
semantic field is 'stinginess', 'avarice'.  We would like to put out a 
couple of questions and also see if others know of related forms that 
we don't have.  I’ll put the information that we have and our questions 
below, along with my thoughts on the subject.

Mary

     The most basic form we have appears to be tlai(h)me-tl. Various 
forms of the words occur with and without the i, which thus looks like 
a "supportive i" to provide a syllable-initial vowel for a following 
glottal stop, but we have no examples with glottal stops following this 
i, or where it should be, and there are no forms in our data where the 
i is initial. In fact, there is no initial ime- or ihme- in Joe's 
entire data set from the three Molina dictionaries and the Florentine 
Codex or my data from Ayer ms 1478 (Vocabulario trilingüe).
     Does anyone know of any other variably occurring i's, (except for 
those in -itl words such as maitl)?
     For this i to occur in initial position, not only would tla(i)metl 
need to be a deverbal noun -- not impossible, given the occurrence of 
root patientives and non-active forms in -hua -- but the tla would have 
to be an object on a non-basic verb form that would have to have 
undergone yet another stage of verbing (or transitivizing) from a form 
with initial i.  This does NOT look possible.
     Of the ten forms of the word that we have, only one has only one 
tla-. All of the others begin with tla(h)tla. There is one example of 
this glottal stop, suggesting that the initial tla(h)- is 
reduplicative.This noun forms a verb with -ti, which appears to be a 
normal intransitive verb. In all cases where Molina lists the verb 
forms with prefixes, he has only ni after the comma, not nitla. This is 
somewhat weak evidence for an intransitive verb, since Molina is known 
to make mistakes with prefixes. But independent of that, there is no 
reason to think that the verb is transitive and that the first tla is 
an object. (And recall the one example of tlah, suggesting 
reduplication.)

     Lacking further information, I'm going to code these with a basic 
morpheme tlaimetl (the -tl comes off, of course).

     It's not every day that we just "invent" a morpheme. Does anyone 
have any thoughts, suggestions or comments? Any other analyses?

     Below, I list all of the types that we have, and below those, all 
of the tokens with glosses, sources and suggested morphology.

			Molina		Sahagun	Ayer ms. 1478
	With i		12		0		0
	Without i	  9		6		2
	Total		21		6		2
[my apologies if the columns don't line up. They did when I started]

Word Types
  tlatlaimetl.
  tlahtlametl.
  tlatlametl.
  tlatlamepan.
  tlatlameyotl.
  tlaimeti , ni.
  tlatlaimeti , ni.
  tlatlameti , ni.
  tlatlameti.
  tlatlaimetiliztli.

Word Tokens
  tlatlaimetl.      dupl-tlaimetl
   escasso {55m}
   escasso {71m1}
   guardador escasso {71m1}
   mezquino {71m1}
   miserable escasso {71m1}
   auariento o escasso {71m2}

  tlahtlametl.      dupl-tlaimetl
   ___  << 7  2>>
   avaricious person  <<10  3>>

  tlatlametl.      dupl-tlaimetl
   auariento {55m}
   auariento {71m1}
   avaricious  <<10  1>>
   avaricious person  <<10  3>>

  (from Ayer MS 1478)
  tlatlametl.  dupl-tlaimetl
     tlatlame/tl. {4r1.19} Abonado en hazienda. preditus. assiduus.
     tlatla/metl. (tzotzoca). {25v1.09} Auariento en cabo. auaRus, a, um.

  tlatlamepan.      dupl-tlaimetl-pan
   place of avarice  << 4 11>>

  tlatlameyotl.      dupl-tlaimetl-yoa:-l2-tl
   auaricia, o escaseza {71m1}
   escasseza o auaricia {71m2}

  tlaimeti , ni.      tlaimetl-v01a ,  p11
   guardar hazienda {71m1}

  tlatlaimeti , ni.      dupl-tlaimetl-v01a , pll
   guardar hazienda {55m}
   ser auariento {71m2}

  tlatlameti , ni.     dupl-tlaimetl-v01a ,  p11
   auaricia tener {55m}
   guardar hazienda {55m}
   guardar hazienda {71m1}
   auaricia tener {71m1}
   ser auariento {71m2}

  tlatlameti.     dupl-tlaimetl-v01a
   he is avaricious  <<10  3>>

  tlatlaimetiliztli.      dupl-tlaimetl-v01a-liz-tl
   auaricia {55m}
   auaricia, o escaseza {71m1}
   escasseza o auaricia {71m2}



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Jul  2 21:26:28 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 17:26:28 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <BLU178-W4382D297A4A533D25FE29CD1720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.172628.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

What is this in relation to? Was there a question about ilhuitl? If so, 
I didn't receive it.

Thank you.

Michael

Quoting Jacinto Acatecatl <tekuani at hotmail.es>:

> ilhuitl= fiestatlamina= que pica, qu punza
> asi tenemos, ilhuitlamina, la fiesta que pica (pero no tiene sentido)
> hay que interpretarlo de otra manera,  y podr?a ser rayo, centella,
> luz alegre. si lo asociamos con tlamoyotl como en el ejemplo:
> ilhuitlamoyotl, siginificar?a exactamente rayo alegre.
> este es mi umilde aportaci+on, no soy linguista, tampoco soy experto
> en la materia.
> que tengan excelente d?a.
> Jacinto Acatecatl.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From tekuani at hotmail.es  Tue Jul  2 21:15:15 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 16:15:15 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1371920402.25310.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.161515.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

hola buenos d?as a todos,me gustar?a me ayudaran sobre mis apellidos, he esta investigando para poder averiguar sobre el significado de mis apellidos, hasta ahora tengo l o siguiente:
Acatecatl 
Acatl=Ca?a/carrizoTekatl= tendido/ acostado/Durmiente(viga que sirbe de soporte)  
Namictle              
Mamiktel=  el que est en posibilidades de casarse (i tlanamiktel= su prometido)namike= yo estoy sediendo (ni namike)
miktle= muertemamike= namikilistle-- encuentro

Estoy antento a las dudas, creiticas y comentarios
Atentamente:
Jacinto Acatecatl Namictle 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Tue Jul  2 21:16:51 2013
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (Baert Georges)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 23:16:51 +0200
Subject: Puerta
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.231651.0200.LAHUNIK.62@SKYNET.BE>

Puerta,

Some use "puerta" as a Nahuatl noun derived from the Spanish language.

But is there a typically Nahuatl word for "door"?

Lahun Ik 62

Baert Georges

 

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Jul  2 21:40:37 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 17:40:37 -0400
Subject: Puerta
In-Reply-To: <000f01ce7769$78a2ce10$69e86a30$@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.174037.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

door way quiya:huatl.
in the door way  quiya:huac



Quoting Baert Georges <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>:

> Puerta,
>
> Some use "puerta" as a Nahuatl noun derived from the Spanish language.
>
> But is there a typically Nahuatl word for "door"?
>
> Lahun Ik 62
>
> Baert Georges
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From tekuani at hotmail.es  Tue Jul  2 21:05:25 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 16:05:25 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.876.1372510373.7261.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.160525.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

ilhuitl= fiestatlamina= que pica, qu punza
asi tenemos, ilhuitlamina, la fiesta que pica (pero no tiene sentido) hay que interpretarlo de otra manera,  y podr?a ser rayo, centella, luz alegre. si lo asociamos con tlamoyotl como en el ejemplo:
ilhuitlamoyotl, siginificar?a exactamente rayo alegre.
este es mi umilde aportaci+on, no soy linguista, tampoco soy experto en la materia.
que tengan excelente d?a.
Jacinto Acatecatl.

 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Tue Jul  2 22:49:21 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 17:49:21 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <BLU178-W3544965953A88A6CD2C45BD1720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.174921.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Muy estimado Jacinto:

En cuanto a tu apellido Acatecatl, veo la l?gica de tu an?lisis. Otra posibilidad es que signifique "persona de Acatlan", form?ndose de la palabra acatl |?catl| + teca |t?ca| + tl |tl|. Acatlan, por su parte, significa "lugar de carrizos", "junto a los carrizos" o "entre los carrizos". El plural ser?a acatecah |?cat?cah|) ((|?catl| ? |tl|) + teca |t?ca| + |h|), "personas de Acatlan".

Estoy escribiendo cada palabra dos veces, la primera con la antigua ortograf?a tradicional (m?s o menos como la que usaba fray Alonso Molina en el siglo XVI) y la segunda, entre rayitas verticales, con la ortograf?a que propuso Richard Andrews en 1975 y que es usada por Frances Karttunen en su diccionario de 1983, que marca las vocales largas con rayitas horizontales y los saltillos con la letra |h|. Molina y otros autores del periodo Colonial no marcaba las vocales largas y rara vez escrib?a los saltillos. Escribir todo dos veces tal vez complica demasiado mi mensaje, pero es necesario para ver con precisi?n c?mo se forman las palabras, por ejemplo para distinguir entre el sufijo locativo -tlan |tl?n| y la posposici?n (llamado tambi?n palabra relacional) -tlan |tlan|, que tiene un significado similar pero se comporta de una manera distinta adentro de las palabras.

Hay varios sustantivos gentilicios que terminen en -tecatl | t?catl| y que significan "persona de (alg?n lugar que termine con el sufijo locativo -tlan |tl?n| o su variante -lan |l?n|, que se usa cuando la ra?z anterior termine con |l|)". Sigue un extracto de la segunda edici?n, in?dita todav?a, de mi libro Lectura del n?huatl. La primera edici?n no tiene el cap?tulo sobre gentilicios, el cual agregu? despu?s de que se imprimi?, porque vi que a mis estudiantes les hac?a falta para hacer bien sus traducciones de los textos en n?huatl del siglo XVI.

*****************************************************************
Cuando los top?nimos llevan el sufijo locativo  tlan |tl?n| (o su variante  lan |l?n|), en los gentilicios correspondientes se quita este sufijo y se agrega el sufijo  teca |t?ca| m?s el sufijo absolutivo  tl |tl| en el singular y |h| en el plural:

? Tepotzotlan |tepotzohtl?n| > tepotzotecatl |tepotzoht?catl| ((|tepotzohtl?n| ? |tl?n|) + |t?ca| + |tl|) > tepotzoteca |tepotzoht?cah| ((|tepotzohtl?n| ? |tl?n|) + |t?ca| + |h|);
? Tollan |t?ll?n| > toltecatl |t?lt?catl| ((|t?ll?n| ? |l?n|) + |t?ca| + |tl|) > tolteca |t?lt?cah| ((|t?ll?n| ? |l?n|) + |t?ca| + |h|);
? Cholollan |chol?ll?n| > chololtecatl |chol?lt?catl| ((|chol?ll?n| ? |l?n|) + |t?ca| + |tl|) > chololteca |chol?lt?cah| ((|chol?ll?n| ? |l?n|) + |t?ca| + |h|).
*****************************************************************

En los ejemplos anteriores no me met? con el an?lisis de los top?nimos para no distraer al lector del asunto de los gentilicios. Me bas? en las gram?ticas de Andrews (2003: 507) y Carochi (2001: 218, 219; libro 3, cap?tulo 11), pues no hablo n?huatl.

Referencias

ANDREWS, J. Richard
1975 Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, Austin/Londres, University of Texas Press.
2003 Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press.

CAROCHI, Horacio
1645 Arte de la lengua mexicana con la declaraci?n de los adverbios della, M?xico, Juan Ruiz.
2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los ?ngeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications.

KARTTUNEN, Frances
1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press.
1992 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, 2a. ed., Norman, University of Oklahoma Press.

A ver que dicen los dem?s listeros acerca de tu apellido materno.

Saludos desde Guanajuato,

David Wright

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Jacinto Acatecatl
Enviado el: martes, 2 de julio de 2013 04:15 p. m.
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3

hola buenos d?as a todos,me gustar?a me ayudaran sobre mis apellidos, he esta investigando para poder averiguar sobre el significado de mis apellidos, hasta ahora tengo l o siguiente:
Acatecatl
Acatl=Ca?a/carrizoTekatl= tendido/ acostado/Durmiente(viga que sirbe de soporte)  
Namictle              
Mamiktel=  el que est en posibilidades de casarse (i tlanamiktel= su prometido)namike= yo estoy sediendo (ni namike) miktle= muertemamike= namikilistle-- encuentro

Estoy antento a las dudas, creiticas y comentarios
Atentamente:
Jacinto Acatecatl Namictle 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Tue Jul  2 22:52:28 2013
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (Baert Georges)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 00:52:28 +0200
Subject: Door, Puerta
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUL.2013.005228.0200.LAHUNIK.62@SKYNET.BE>

Aocmo ye nicmati.

Tlatzakoali (Xavier), calacohuyan (Susan) auh quiyahuitl (Michael).

Tlein niccuiz?

Lahun Ik 62

Baert Georges 

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul  3 02:18:29 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 22:18:29 -0400
Subject: Door, Puerta
In-Reply-To: <000601ce7776$d41475c0$7c3d6140$@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.221829.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Baert Georges <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>:

> Aocmo ye nicmati.
>
> Tlatzakoali (Xavier), calacohuyan (Susan) auh quiyahuitl (Michael).
>
> Tlein niccuiz?
>
> Lahun Ik 62
>
> Baert Georges
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>

Georges,

There's something wrong in the way you've spelled Susan's term.

I think quiyahuitl may indicate specifically the space rather than the 
wooden thing. Here are some other terms I have:

door  tlatzacuillotl.
door sill  cuauhpepechtli.
i close the door.  nicuauhtzatzacua

Michael


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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul  3 02:34:17 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 22:34:17 -0400
Subject: Door, Puerta
In-Reply-To: <20130702221829.u11ptvzneowc8gc4@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.223417.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>:

> Quoting Baert Georges <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>:
>
>> Aocmo ye nicmati.
>>
>> Tlatzakoali (Xavier), calacohuyan (Susan) auh quiyahuitl (Michael).
>>
>> Tlein niccuiz?
>>
>> Lahun Ik 62
>>
>> Baert Georges
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
> Georges,
>
> There's something wrong in the way you've spelled Susan's term.
>
> I think quiyahuitl



THIS OF COURSE SHOULD READ QUIYAHUATL.




may indicate specifically the space rather than
> the wooden thing. Here are some other terms I have:
>
> door  tlatzacuillotl.
> door sill  cuauhpepechtli.
> i close the door.  nicuauhtzatzacua
>
> Michael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul  3 02:33:17 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 22:33:17 -0400
Subject: Door, Puerta
In-Reply-To: <000601ce7776$d41475c0$7c3d6140$@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUL.2013.223317.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Note also, Georges, that 'doorway' is quiya:huatl, not quiyahuitl or 
quiyahua:tl, which mean 'rainstorm'.

Michael




Quoting Baert Georges <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>:

> Aocmo ye nicmati.
>
> Tlatzakoali (Xavier), calacohuyan (Susan) auh quiyahuitl (Michael).
>
> Tlein niccuiz?
>
> Lahun Ik 62
>
> Baert Georges
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From susana at losrancheros.org  Wed Jul  3 08:50:26 2013
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 10:50:26 +0200
Subject: Door, Puerta
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUL.2013.105026.0200.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Georges,
My word was CALACOHUAYAN, not calacohuyan.
CALACOHUA is non-active of CALAQUI, to enter
-YAN denotes a customary place
hence, a place through which one customarily enters

Another term could be CALIXTLI (face/front of the house)

I don't know the term for the physical aspect of a door, but I imagine it
could be something having to do with wood, tree.... CUAHUITL.

Maybe some other listero who is expert in neologisms could help.

Susana


On 3 July 2013 04:33, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

>
>
> Note also, Georges, that 'doorway' is quiya:huatl, not quiyahuitl or
> quiyahua:tl, which mean 'rainstorm'.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Baert Georges <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>:
>
>  Aocmo ye nicmati.
>>
>> Tlatzakoali (Xavier), calacohuyan (Susan) auh quiyahuitl (Michael).
>>
>> Tlein niccuiz?
>>
>> Lahun Ik 62
>>
>> Baert Georges
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Jul  3 15:13:24 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 10:13:24 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUL.2013.101324.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Apreciado Jacinto:

Te pido una disculpa por lo complicado de mi ?ltimo mensaje. Lo que pasa es que lo que no somos hablantes naturales tenemos que hacer todo un tango ling??stico para entender las cosas con un poco de precisi?n.

Sobre tu apellido materno, Namictle, vas bien. Intercambi? un par de mensajes con Michael McCafferty fuera de la lista Nahuat-l y estamos de acuerdo en la factibilidad de una explicaci?n hipot?tica.

En el diccionario de fray Alonso de Molina, de 1571 (y en algunos diccionarios de las variantes modernas, con variaciones, como el uso de prefijos posesivos) aparece la palabra namictli, "casado o casada". El cambio del sufijo absolutivo -tli por -tle no es raro cuando las palabras en n?huatl son prestados al castellano.

Dejando volar mi imaginaci?n, pens? en el momento del registro de alg?n beb?, hijo de nahuahablantes  y antepasado tuyo, en una parroquia o registro civil, tal vez con la presencia de un int?rprete. Despu?s de apuntar el nombre del padre, pregunta el encargado del registro qui?n es la madre y alguien responde en n?huatl que es su esposa, para que quedara en claro que se tratara de un hijo leg?timo, quedando "Namictle" en el registro, como apellido.

M?s saludos,

David Wright

-----Mensaje original-----
De: David Wright [mailto:dcwright at prodigy.net.mx] 
Enviado el: martes, 2 de julio de 2013 05:49 p. m.
Para: 'Jacinto Acatecatl'
CC: Nahuat-l
Asunto: RE: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3

Muy estimado Jacinto:

En cuanto a tu apellido Acatecatl, veo la l?gica de tu an?lisis. Otra posibilidad es que signifique "persona de Acatlan", form?ndose de la palabra acatl |?catl| + teca |t?ca| + tl |tl|. Acatlan, por su parte, significa "lugar de carrizos", "junto a los carrizos" o "entre los carrizos". El plural ser?a acatecah |?cat?cah|) ((|?catl| ? |tl|) + teca |t?ca| + |h|), "personas de Acatlan".

Estoy escribiendo cada palabra dos veces, la primera con la antigua ortograf?a tradicional (m?s o menos como la que usaba fray Alonso Molina en el siglo XVI) y la segunda, entre rayitas verticales, con la ortograf?a que propuso Richard Andrews en 1975 y que es usada por Frances Karttunen en su diccionario de 1983, que marca las vocales largas con rayitas horizontales y los saltillos con la letra |h|. Molina y otros autores del periodo Colonial no marcaba las vocales largas y rara vez escrib?a los saltillos. Escribir todo dos veces tal vez complica demasiado mi mensaje, pero es necesario para ver con precisi?n c?mo se forman las palabras, por ejemplo para distinguir entre el sufijo locativo -tlan |tl?n| y la posposici?n (llamado tambi?n palabra relacional) -tlan |tlan|, que tiene un significado similar pero se comporta de una manera distinta adentro de las palabras.

Hay varios sustantivos gentilicios que terminen en -tecatl | t?catl| y que significan "persona de (alg?n lugar que termine con el sufijo locativo -tlan |tl?n| o su variante -lan |l?n|, que se usa cuando la ra?z anterior termine con |l|)". Sigue un extracto de la segunda edici?n, in?dita todav?a, de mi libro Lectura del n?huatl. La primera edici?n no tiene el cap?tulo sobre gentilicios, el cual agregu? despu?s de que se imprimi?, porque vi que a mis estudiantes les hac?a falta para hacer bien sus traducciones de los textos en n?huatl del siglo XVI.

*****************************************************************
Cuando los top?nimos llevan el sufijo locativo  tlan |tl?n| (o su variante  lan |l?n|), en los gentilicios correspondientes se quita este sufijo y se agrega el sufijo  teca |t?ca| m?s el sufijo absolutivo  tl |tl| en el singular y |h| en el plural:

? Tepotzotlan |tepotzohtl?n| > tepotzotecatl |tepotzoht?catl| ((|tepotzohtl?n| ? |tl?n|) + |t?ca| + |tl|) > tepotzoteca |tepotzoht?cah| ((|tepotzohtl?n| ? |tl?n|) + |t?ca| + |h|);

? Tollan |t?ll?n| > toltecatl |t?lt?catl| ((|t?ll?n| ? |l?n|) + |t?ca| + |tl|) > tolteca |t?lt?cah| ((|t?ll?n| ? |l?n|) + |t?ca| + |h|);

? Cholollan |chol?ll?n| > chololtecatl |chol?lt?catl| ((|chol?ll?n| ? |l?n|) + |t?ca| + |tl|) > chololteca |chol?lt?cah| ((|chol?ll?n| ? |l?n|) + |t?ca| + |h|).
*****************************************************************

En los ejemplos anteriores no me met? con el an?lisis de los top?nimos para no distraer al lector del asunto de los gentilicios. Me bas? en las gram?ticas de Andrews (2003: 507) y Carochi (2001: 218, 219; libro 3, cap?tulo 11), pues no hablo n?huatl.

Referencias

ANDREWS, J. Richard
1975 Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, Austin/Londres, University of Texas Press.
2003 Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press.

CAROCHI, Horacio
1645 Arte de la lengua mexicana con la declaraci?n de los adverbios della, M?xico, Juan Ruiz.
2001 Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, traductor y editor, Stanford/Los ?ngeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications.

KARTTUNEN, Frances
1983 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, Austin, University of Texas Press.
1992 An analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, 2a. ed., Norman, University of Oklahoma Press.

A ver que dicen los dem?s listeros acerca de tu apellido materno.

Saludos desde Guanajuato,

David Wright

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Jacinto Acatecatl Enviado el: martes, 2 de julio de 2013 04:15 p. m.
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 3

hola buenos d?as a todos,me gustar?a me ayudaran sobre mis apellidos, he esta investigando para poder averiguar sobre el significado de mis apellidos, hasta ahora tengo l o siguiente:
Acatecatl
Acatl=Ca?a/carrizoTekatl= tendido/ acostado/Durmiente(viga que sirbe de soporte)  
Namictle              
Mamiktel=  el que est en posibilidades de casarse (i tlanamiktel= su prometido)namike= yo estoy sediendo (ni namike) miktle= muertemamike= namikilistle-- encuentro

Estoy antento a las dudas, creiticas y comentarios
Atentamente:
Jacinto Acatecatl Namictle 		 	   		  
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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Thu Jul  4 21:09:58 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 16:09:58 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 303, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1372870802.12061.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUL.2013.160958.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

Kaltempan, FRente a la casa, pero tambien, utiliza para referirse a la puesta.
el t?rmino Calacahayan me parece adecuado.
 		 	   		  
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From schwallr at potsdam.edu  Fri Jul  5 01:21:59 2013
From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 21:21:59 -0400
Subject: REPLY: Scatter shot questions
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUL.2013.212159.0400.SCHWALLR@POTSDAM.EDU>

> From: Gordon Whittaker <gwhitta4 at gmail.com>
> Date: 28 June 2013 22:57:06 CEST
> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: Re: scatter-shot questions: Moctezuma and co., malinalli, and
Chimalma(n)
>

> Dear Ben,
>
> Thanks for your questions (and David, Michael and John, for your
comments). Here
are a few reflections of my own, for what they're worth:
>
> 1)  What's the correct spelling of the name behind the horrendously garbled
"Montezuma" / "Moctezuma" variants?
>
> As has already been suggested by my colleagues, the name is construed
from a verb
with embedded noun. The verb is indeed mo-zo:ma (o: here is equivalent to the
vowel o with a macron over it for length) "to frown with severity,
displeasure, or
anger; be (or grow) angry". The embedded noun is most frequently written
either
te:cuh- (my favorite) or te:uc- (more common these days) "lord", spelling
conventions which, unfortunately, often cause beginners to mispronounce the
sequence as te-ku and te-uk, respectively! The combination of verb with
embedded
noun yields a so-called sentence name "He is (or Was) Severe Like a Lord",
which
is less a character statement with regard to two Aztec emperors and a
migration-period lord than to the sun, which was aptly so named at its midday
zenith. One can still debate on the question as to whether the name is
formed on
the present (in which case it would be Mote:cuhzo:ma and the like) or
preterite
tense (Mote:cuhzo:ma' with a final glottal stop written either ' or h, when
written at all).
>
> 2) The plural of malinalli?
>
> It's the same, whether singular or plural in meaning. Inanimate nouns
are left in
the singular in 16th-century Nahuatl. These days, however, they are often
pluralized on the analogy of Spanish.
>
> 3) The meaning of Chimalma vs. Chimalman?
>
> These usually refer to one of two legendary persons, the mother of Nacxitl
Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl or a female migration-period leader of the Mexitin,
so one
form probably underlies both spellings. In alphabetic texts,
syllable-final n can
be left off where required and added where not, similar (and related) to the
pattern in Nahuatl glyphic writing. Thus, the name can be analyzed in a
number of
ways, depending on the phonetic shape of the original. If Chimalman, then
it can
be one of three sentence names (of the "(He) Dances With Wolves" type):
>     Chi:mal-ma "She Captures Shields" (or Chi:mal-ma' "She Has Captured
Shields"),
>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Laid Out Shields" (if from mana), or
>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Spread Out Like a Shield" (if from mani).
>
> Alternatively, if a noun compound, the name can be construed as
>     Chi:mal-ma "Shield Hand".
> The nominal suffix can be left off on names: cf. Acamapich(tli) and
Axayaca(tl).
So a form Chimalmaitl is unnecessary.
>
> When writing these forms outside of a Nahuatl text (e.g. in an English
novel) you
can drop the macrons (here the colons) and the glo'l stops, as many Nahua
have
done and still do.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Best wishes,
> Gordon
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Gordon Whittaker
> Professor of Anthropology and Indigenous American Studies
> Dept. of Romance Philology / Institute of Ethnology
> University of Goettingen
> Germany
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jul  5 01:53:10 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 21:53:10 -0400
Subject: REPLY: Scatter shot questions
In-Reply-To: <ef26a34831da7195262ccc951a1a739a.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUL.2013.215310.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>:

>
>> From: Gordon Whittaker <gwhitta4 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 28 June 2013 22:57:06 CEST
>> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>> Subject: Re: scatter-shot questions: Moctezuma and co., malinalli, and
> Chimalma(n)
>>
>
>> Dear Ben,
>>
>> Thanks for your questions (and David, Michael and John, for your
> comments). Here
> are a few reflections of my own, for what they're worth:
>>
>> 1)  What's the correct spelling of the name behind the horrendously garbled
> "Montezuma" / "Moctezuma" variants?
>>
>> As has already been suggested by my colleagues, the name is construed
> from a verb
> with embedded noun. The verb is indeed mo-zo:ma (o: here is equivalent to the
> vowel o with a macron over it for length) "to frown with severity,
> displeasure, or
> anger; be (or grow) angry". The embedded noun is most frequently written
> either
> te:cuh- (my favorite) or te:uc- (more common these days) "lord", spelling
> conventions which, unfortunately, often cause beginners to mispronounce the
> sequence as te-ku and te-uk, respectively!

Hi, Gordon,

Yes, it's definitely a messy orthographical challenge to write the 
actual morpheme /te:kw-/ 'lord'.

The combination of verb with
> embedded
> noun yields a so-called sentence name "He is (or Was) Severe Like a Lord",
> which
> is less a character statement with regard to two Aztec emperors and a
> migration-period lord than to the sun, which was aptly so named at its midday
> zenith.

Tlazohcamati miac. Ahmo nicmatia inin tlamantli.


Michael






One can still debate on the question as to whether the name is
> formed on
> the present (in which case it would be Mote:cuhzo:ma and the like) or
> preterite
> tense (Mote:cuhzo:ma' with a final glottal stop written either ' or h, when
> written at all).
>>
>> 2) The plural of malinalli?
>>
>> It's the same, whether singular or plural in meaning. Inanimate nouns
> are left in
> the singular in 16th-century Nahuatl. These days, however, they are often
> pluralized on the analogy of Spanish.
>>
>> 3) The meaning of Chimalma vs. Chimalman?
>>
>> These usually refer to one of two legendary persons, the mother of Nacxitl
> Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl or a female migration-period leader of the Mexitin,
> so one
> form probably underlies both spellings. In alphabetic texts,
> syllable-final n can
> be left off where required and added where not, similar (and related) to the
> pattern in Nahuatl glyphic writing. Thus, the name can be analyzed in a
> number of
> ways, depending on the phonetic shape of the original. If Chimalman, then
> it can
> be one of three sentence names (of the "(He) Dances With Wolves" type):
>>     Chi:mal-ma "She Captures Shields" (or Chi:mal-ma' "She Has Captured
> Shields"),
>>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Laid Out Shields" (if from mana), or
>>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Spread Out Like a Shield" (if from mani).
>>
>> Alternatively, if a noun compound, the name can be construed as
>>     Chi:mal-ma "Shield Hand".
>> The nominal suffix can be left off on names: cf. Acamapich(tli) and
> Axayaca(tl).
> So a form Chimalmaitl is unnecessary.
>>
>> When writing these forms outside of a Nahuatl text (e.g. in an English
> novel) you
> can drop the macrons (here the colons) and the glo'l stops, as many Nahua
> have
> done and still do.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Gordon
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Gordon Whittaker
>> Professor of Anthropology and Indigenous American Studies
>> Dept. of Romance Philology / Institute of Ethnology
>> University of Goettingen
>> Germany
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jul  5 01:56:50 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 21:56:50 -0400
Subject: REPLY: Scatter shot questions
In-Reply-To: <ef26a34831da7195262ccc951a1a739a.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUL.2013.215650.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Gordon,

And I should have added that the w in /te:kw-/ is a raised w.


wiipaci,

Michael




Quoting "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>:

>
>> From: Gordon Whittaker <gwhitta4 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 28 June 2013 22:57:06 CEST
>> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
>> Subject: Re: scatter-shot questions: Moctezuma and co., malinalli, and
> Chimalma(n)
>>
>
>> Dear Ben,
>>
>> Thanks for your questions (and David, Michael and John, for your
> comments). Here
> are a few reflections of my own, for what they're worth:
>>
>> 1)  What's the correct spelling of the name behind the horrendously garbled
> "Montezuma" / "Moctezuma" variants?
>>
>> As has already been suggested by my colleagues, the name is construed
> from a verb
> with embedded noun. The verb is indeed mo-zo:ma (o: here is equivalent to the
> vowel o with a macron over it for length) "to frown with severity,
> displeasure, or
> anger; be (or grow) angry". The embedded noun is most frequently written
> either
> te:cuh- (my favorite) or te:uc- (more common these days) "lord", spelling
> conventions which, unfortunately, often cause beginners to mispronounce the
> sequence as te-ku and te-uk, respectively! The combination of verb with
> embedded
> noun yields a so-called sentence name "He is (or Was) Severe Like a Lord",
> which
> is less a character statement with regard to two Aztec emperors and a
> migration-period lord than to the sun, which was aptly so named at its midday
> zenith. One can still debate on the question as to whether the name is
> formed on
> the present (in which case it would be Mote:cuhzo:ma and the like) or
> preterite
> tense (Mote:cuhzo:ma' with a final glottal stop written either ' or h, when
> written at all).
>>
>> 2) The plural of malinalli?
>>
>> It's the same, whether singular or plural in meaning. Inanimate nouns
> are left in
> the singular in 16th-century Nahuatl. These days, however, they are often
> pluralized on the analogy of Spanish.
>>
>> 3) The meaning of Chimalma vs. Chimalman?
>>
>> These usually refer to one of two legendary persons, the mother of Nacxitl
> Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl or a female migration-period leader of the Mexitin,
> so one
> form probably underlies both spellings. In alphabetic texts,
> syllable-final n can
> be left off where required and added where not, similar (and related) to the
> pattern in Nahuatl glyphic writing. Thus, the name can be analyzed in a
> number of
> ways, depending on the phonetic shape of the original. If Chimalman, then
> it can
> be one of three sentence names (of the "(He) Dances With Wolves" type):
>>     Chi:mal-ma "She Captures Shields" (or Chi:mal-ma' "She Has Captured
> Shields"),
>>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Laid Out Shields" (if from mana), or
>>     Chi:mal-man "She Has Spread Out Like a Shield" (if from mani).
>>
>> Alternatively, if a noun compound, the name can be construed as
>>     Chi:mal-ma "Shield Hand".
>> The nominal suffix can be left off on names: cf. Acamapich(tli) and
> Axayaca(tl).
> So a form Chimalmaitl is unnecessary.
>>
>> When writing these forms outside of a Nahuatl text (e.g. in an English
> novel) you
> can drop the macrons (here the colons) and the glo'l stops, as many Nahua
> have
> done and still do.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Gordon
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Gordon Whittaker
>> Professor of Anthropology and Indigenous American Studies
>> Dept. of Romance Philology / Institute of Ethnology
>> University of Goettingen
>> Germany
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From bleeming at gmail.com  Tue Jul  9 14:48:16 2013
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 10:48:16 -0400
Subject: regarding: in nontlan in itzcatlan
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUL.2013.104816.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

amigos listeros/as,

In Garibay's "Historia de la literatura N?huatl" he lists the difrasismo
"in nontlan in itzcatlan" and translates it as "lugar de mudez y fr?o =
regi?n de los muertos."  He cites the Colloquios as the source (I don't
have access right now to the text or else I would check it, although a
keyword search on Google books didn't return either "nontlan" or
"itzcatlan"; anyone out there have it handy?).

The question of "nontlan" seems straight forward, from no:n-tli "someone
mute."  However, I'm struggling with "itzcatlan."  I am assuming that it
derives from i:tz-tli "obsidian" which in turn is at the root of i:tztic
"something cold" and i:tztiya "to get cold."  However, I'm wondering about
the -ca-.  Is this just Andrews' "obsolete noun stem *(ca:)-tl" which he
states is only found in combined forms?

As for the meaning, I get it (and I love it!)  However, has anyone
encountered this particular difrasismo in any sources other than the
Colloquios (if it's even there at all)?

Thanks,

Ben

-- 
Ben Leeming
PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Jul  9 20:16:28 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 16:16:28 -0400
Subject: regarding: in nontlan in itzcatlan
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErVBJCreYw5EyLOP5+Ogy4Nw2HwOjaau1R2NQ6BKjC=wKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUL.2013.161628.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:

> amigos listeros/as,
>
> In Garibay's "Historia de la literatura N?huatl" he lists the difrasismo
> "in nontlan in itzcatlan" and translates it as "lugar de mudez y fr?o =
> regi?n de los muertos."  He cites the Colloquios as the source (I don't
> have access right now to the text or else I would check it, although a
> keyword search on Google books didn't return either "nontlan" or
> "itzcatlan"; anyone out there have it handy?).
>
> The question of "nontlan" seems straight forward, from no:n-tli "someone
> mute."  However, I'm struggling with "itzcatlan."  I am assuming that it
> derives from i:tz-tli "obsidian" which in turn is at the root of i:tztic
> "something cold" and i:tztiya "to get cold."  However, I'm wondering about
> the -ca-.  Is this just Andrews' "obsolete noun stem *(ca:)-tl" which he
> states is only found in combined forms?

Hi, Ben

Here's what I see:

no:ntli is a person who can't talk. no:ntlan would be "place of the mute ones"

itzca:tl = something associated with obsidian, and thus cold. itzcatlan 
would be "place of the being of obsidian," or of cold.

Michael


>
> As for the meaning, I get it (and I love it!)  However, has anyone
> encountered this particular difrasismo in any sources other than the
> Colloquios (if it's even there at all)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Tue Jul  9 21:20:03 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 16:20:03 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 304, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1373389201.8083.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUL.2013.162003.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

Efectivamente, Nontle significa, persona que no habla y en el nahuatl moderno a?n se utiliza para llamar a una persona con esta discapacidd, tamb?en se le llma nontle a aquella persona que no se niega a contestar.
Para la otra palabra no podr?a ayudar, para decir lugar de frio yo dir?a, tlaseseyatlan, y para referirme a lugar de sangre, dir?a tlaistlan/ istlan, y para lugar de muerte: miktlan, 
La palabra itzcatlan, tendr?a sentido si cambiara a Tlaistlan/ Tlayestla (lugar de Sangre)o tambi?n se debe considerar la palabra ichkatlan como lugar de carneros/chivos.
Esta es mi umilde aportaci?n, ojala sirva de algo.}Atentamente:
Jacinto Acatecatl.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 10:48:16 -0400
> From: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] regarding: in nontlan in itzcatlan
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAN_9ErVBJCreYw5EyLOP5+Ogy4Nw2HwOjaau1R2NQ6BKjC=wKA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> amigos listeros/as,
> 
> In Garibay's "Historia de la literatura N?huatl" he lists the difrasismo
> "in nontlan in itzcatlan" and translates it as "lugar de mudez y fr?o =
> regi?n de los muertos."  He cites the Colloquios as the source (I don't
> have access right now to the text or else I would check it, although a
> keyword search on Google books didn't return either "nontlan" or
> "itzcatlan"; anyone out there have it handy?).
> 
> The question of "nontlan" seems straight forward, from no:n-tli "someone
> mute."  However, I'm struggling with "itzcatlan."  I am assuming that it
> derives from i:tz-tli "obsidian" which in turn is at the root of i:tztic
> "something cold" and i:tztiya "to get cold."  However, I'm wondering about
> the -ca-.  Is this just Andrews' "obsolete noun stem *(ca:)-tl" which he
> states is only found in combined forms?
> 
> As for the meaning, I get it (and I love it!)  However, has anyone
> encountered this particular difrasismo in any sources other than the
> Colloquios (if it's even there at all)?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ben
> 
> -- 
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 304, Issue 1
> ***************************************
 		 	   		  
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From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Wed Jul 10 22:59:22 2013
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (Baert Georges)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 00:59:22 +0200
Subject: Itzcatlan
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUL.2013.005922.0200.LAHUNIK.62@SKYNET.BE>

Nahuatl Digest Vol.301, Issue2, Message 1

Itzcatlan

The stem itz or itzco:a:, used in compositions refers to a obsidian
decoration motif.

This is a stem variant of the verb itta, to see.

The relation with obsidian is probably one can see himself in a piece of
obsidian.

Itzcac, short form of itzcactli, sandals with obsidian motifs.

They were carried by certain Gods like Tezcatlipoca or Chiucna:hui
Itzcuintli (Sah.IX, cap.17).

Or certain palaces, itzco:a:calli.

Or certain coats, itzco:a:yoh.

The motif itself is called, tlaitzco:a:ihcuilo:lli.

See SGAII, 435, Seler says that this motifs are obsidian serpents, itzcoatl,
a mythical figure.

Itztli, is a fragment of obsidian.

Itzla:n, is a possible place, with the locative -tla:n.

It's a place in the province of Cuauhua:huac (Cuernacaca), and could also be
seen as a place where obsidian was found.

Itz- in compositions doesn't mean de facto cold.

Itz-coatl is a sort of fish.

Itz-cuintli, dog, could also mean brutality or cruelty

The form itz-catlan is very difficult to explain.

Lahun Ik 62

Baert Georges 

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From pacoatlicue at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 11 01:34:23 2013
From: pacoatlicue at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?UGFsb21hIFJvZHLtZ3Vleg==?=)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 22:34:23 -0300
Subject: about directional particles in Nahuatl
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.223423.0300.PACOATLICUE@HOTMAIL.COM>

Hello,
My name is Paloma Rodr?guez. I'm a linguist and I'm about to start my second year of a second Master's degree in Guadalajara Mexico. I've been working with Nahuatl for 4 years, since my first Master. 
For my thesis I plan to analyse directional particles in Nahuatl to try to understand their different functions and meanings. I've already read: Olmos, Carochi, Lockhart, Launey and Andrews. And it would help me a lot if you could send  me or suggest me some bibliography related to this topic. 
Besides, I'm planning to do a PhD in Nahuatl linguistics in USA. I wonder if you could tell me about the universities where there are Nahuatl researchers in linguistics or other fields. 
I thank you in advance for your attention.
Regards,
Paloma Rodr?guez 		 	   		  
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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Thu Jul 11 21:55:51 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:55:51 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 304, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1373562002.15502.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUL.2013.165551.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

Felicidades  Paloma Rodr?guez, es bueno saber que haya mas investigadores que le dediquen a un lengua ind?gena, me pongo a tus ordenes en lo poco que te pueda ayudar, por mi parte no soy linguista ni antropologo, mi formaci?n es en sociolog?a pero eh dado clases de nah?atl y soy Nahuablante de la Zona centro del Estado de Veracruz.
Excelente d?a.
Jacinto Acatecatl N.






> From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 304, Issue 3
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 12:00:02 -0500
> 
> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Itzcatlan (Baert Georges)
>    2. about directional particles in Nahuatl (Paloma Rodr?guez)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 00:59:22 +0200
> From: "Baert Georges" <lahunik.62 at skynet.be>
> To: "Nahuatl List" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Itzcatlan
> Message-ID: <000c01ce7dc1$1e092900$5a1b7b00$@skynet.be>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Nahuatl Digest Vol.301, Issue2, Message 1
> 
> Itzcatlan
> 
> The stem itz or itzco:a:, used in compositions refers to a obsidian
> decoration motif.
> 
> This is a stem variant of the verb itta, to see.
> 
> The relation with obsidian is probably one can see himself in a piece of
> obsidian.
> 
> Itzcac, short form of itzcactli, sandals with obsidian motifs.
> 
> They were carried by certain Gods like Tezcatlipoca or Chiucna:hui
> Itzcuintli (Sah.IX, cap.17).
> 
> Or certain palaces, itzco:a:calli.
> 
> Or certain coats, itzco:a:yoh.
> 
> The motif itself is called, tlaitzco:a:ihcuilo:lli.
> 
> See SGAII, 435, Seler says that this motifs are obsidian serpents, itzcoatl,
> a mythical figure.
> 
> Itztli, is a fragment of obsidian.
> 
> Itzla:n, is a possible place, with the locative -tla:n.
> 
> It's a place in the province of Cuauhua:huac (Cuernacaca), and could also be
> seen as a place where obsidian was found.
> 
> Itz- in compositions doesn't mean de facto cold.
> 
> Itz-coatl is a sort of fish.
> 
> Itz-cuintli, dog, could also mean brutality or cruelty
> 
> The form itz-catlan is very difficult to explain.
> 
> Lahun Ik 62
> 
> Baert Georges 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 22:34:23 -0300
> From: Paloma Rodr?guez <pacoatlicue at hotmail.com>
> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] about directional particles in Nahuatl
> Message-ID: <BAY167-W7604E9A909EB78B01A29CAB17B0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hello,
> My name is Paloma Rodr?guez. I'm a linguist and I'm about to start my second year of a second Master's degree in Guadalajara Mexico. I've been working with Nahuatl for 4 years, since my first Master. 
> For my thesis I plan to analyse directional particles in Nahuatl to try to understand their different functions and meanings. I've already read: Olmos, Carochi, Lockhart, Launey and Andrews. And it would help me a lot if you could send  me or suggest me some bibliography related to this topic. 
> Besides, I'm planning to do a PhD in Nahuatl linguistics in USA. I wonder if you could tell me about the universities where there are Nahuatl researchers in linguistics or other fields. 
> I thank you in advance for your attention.
> Regards,
> Paloma Rodr?guez 		 	   		  
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 304, Issue 3
> ***************************************
 		 	   		  
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From susana at losrancheros.org  Tue Jul 23 08:37:25 2013
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:37:25 +0200
Subject: xitomatl
Message-ID: <TUE.23.JUL.2013.103725.0200.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Niltze nocniuhhuan,
I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of the 
word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many different (and 
often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are almost omnipresent.

XICTLI, navel
XITOMA, peel off
TOMAHUAC, fat

Please could I have your opinion?

Tlazohcamati,
Susana-Xochitl

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Jul 23 19:08:24 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 15:08:24 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <51EE40C5.2090503@losrancheros.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.JUL.2013.150824.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:

> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
> almost omnipresent.
>
> XICTLI, navel
> XITOMA, peel off
> TOMAHUAC, fat
>


This is a good question, Susana.

xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.

Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but I 
don't think so.

It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a morpheme 
with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to peeling. The 
toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds like people 
skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.

Michael









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From idiez at me.com  Wed Jul 24 02:13:41 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 22:13:41 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <20130723150824.5qj0ve0a4gcsw4o8@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.JUL.2013.221341.0400.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl" into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get "xiuhtomatl". 
	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
John

On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> 
>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>> almost omnipresent.
>> 
>> XICTLI, navel
>> XITOMA, peel off
>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>> 
> 
> 
> This is a good question, Susana.
> 
> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
> 
> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but I don't think so.
> 
> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 24 10:16:17 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 06:16:17 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <51EF86D8.4020707@losrancheros.org>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.061617.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Problem with this analysis is what happened to the /w/?

Michael

Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:

> Thank you!!
> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>
>
>
> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>> "xiuhtomatl".
>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>> John
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>
>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>
>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>
>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>> I don't think so.
>>>
>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 24 10:20:30 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 06:20:30 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <51EF86D8.4020707@losrancheros.org>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.062030.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Also curious about how one gets from toma:hui to tomatl.

Michael

Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:

> Thank you!!
> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>
>
>
> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>> "xiuhtomatl".
>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>> John
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>
>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>
>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>
>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>> I don't think so.
>>>
>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 24 10:48:02 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 06:48:02 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <51EF86D8.4020707@losrancheros.org>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.064802.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not 
green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.

Ever curious,

Michael

Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:

> Thank you!!
> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>
>
>
> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>> "xiuhtomatl".
>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>> John
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>
>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>
>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>
>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>> I don't think so.
>>>
>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>



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From susana at losrancheros.org  Wed Jul 24 07:48:40 2013
From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:48:40 +0200
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <97DF0ACD-AEA9-4D5A-860C-856F76A2B9AE@me.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.094840.0200.SUSANA@LOSRANCHEROS.ORG>

Thank you!!
so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl = 
intensely-swollen (thing)?



On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl" into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get "xiuhtomatl".
> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
> John
>
> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>
>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>
>>> XICTLI, navel
>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>
>>
>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>
>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>
>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but I don't think so.
>>
>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Wed Jul 24 14:29:43 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:29:43 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 305, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1374598802.6384.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.092943.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

Es la misma traducci?n que yo le podr?a dar, considero que no hay ning?n absurdo, 
Xi de  xiktli (Ombligo)Toma de momahuak (gordo)
No soy historiador  ni linguista, pero del concepto ombligo pudieron partir muchas palabras que deriban de esa parte del cuerpo, ?porque? eso no lo s?.
Ejemplo de lo antes mencionado  son:
Xitontik, gordo (despectivo)xikamatl, Jicamaxikalli, j?cara
Esta es mipeque?a aportaci?n.
Saludos Jacinto. 		 	   		  
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From idiez at me.com  Wed Jul 24 15:23:19 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:23:19 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <20130724064802.fw6faut34wosc48g@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.112319.0400.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Piyali All,
1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.
2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form, although it might have something to do with the fact that syllable-final w does?t occur in Spanish.
3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.
John

On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
> 
> Ever curious,
> 
> Michael
> 
> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> 
>> Thank you!!
>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>>> "xiuhtomatl".
>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>>> John
>>> 
>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>> 
>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>> 
>>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>> 
>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>> 
>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>>> I don't think so.
>>>> 
>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>> 
>>>> Michael
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Jul 24 15:26:12 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:26:12 -0500
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <20130724061617.xwpj05d68scoccsg@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.102612.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Listeros:

 

I looked hard for cases of assimilation /w/ + /t/ > /t/, to no avail. I
found several involving /w/ (see below), but none with /w/ + /t/. That seems
to weaken the /?iwitl/ hypothesis. There may be a problem with vowel length
(/i/ versus /i:/) as well, if /xi:tomatl/ does indeed have a long /i:/, as
Karttunen reconstructs it in her dictionary.

 

/w/ + /m/ > /mm/

/w/ + /p/ > /pp/

/tl/ + /w/ > /lw/

/ts/ + /w/ > / ts /

/?/ + /w/ > /?/

/n/ + /w/ > /w/

/m/ + /w/ > /w/

/w/ + /w/ > /w/

 

I couldn't find any cases of /k/ + /t/ > /t/ either, so that seems to put
the /?i:ktli/ hypothesis on shaky ground also. For years I thought this was
the etymology, but had never really thought about it critically.

 

I hope all these characters survive the trip through cyberspace.

 

Saludos,

 

David Wright

 

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de Michael McCafferty
Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 24 de julio de 2013 05:16 a. m.
Para: Susana Moraleda
CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] xitomatl

 

 

Problem with this analysis is what happened to the /w/?

 

Michael

 

Quoting Susana Moraleda < <mailto:susana at losrancheros.org>
susana at losrancheros.org>:

 

> Thank you!!

> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl = 

> intensely-swollen (thing)?

> 

> 

> 

> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:

>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,

>>           I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here
goes.

>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can 

>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".

>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This 

>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a 

>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"

>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get 

>> "xiuhtomatl".

>>           This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things,
so a 

>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.

>> John

>> 

>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty 

>> < <mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu> mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

>> 

>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda < <mailto:susana at losrancheros.org>
susana at losrancheros.org>:

>>> 

>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,

>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology 

>>>> of the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many 

>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that 

>>>> are almost omnipresent.

>>>> 

>>>> XICTLI, navel

>>>> XITOMA, peel off

>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat

>>>> 

>>> 

>>> This is a good question, Susana.

>>> 

>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.

>>> 

>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but I 

>>> don't think so.

>>> 

>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a morpheme 

>>> with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to peeling. The 

>>> toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds like people 

>>> skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.

>>> 

>>> Michael

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> _______________________________________________

>>>> Nahuatl mailing list

>>>>  <mailto:Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

>>>>  <http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

>>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> Nahuatl mailing list

>>>  <mailto:Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

>>>  <http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

> 

> 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

Nahuatl mailing list

 <mailto:Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org

 <http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Jul 24 15:34:00 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:34:00 -0500
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <4E925870-7021-4995-B5CC-05904950D48C@me.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.103400.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

P. S.

In Alexis Wimmer's online dictionary (http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/nahuatl.page.html) we find instances of "xitomatl", without the /w/, in the Florentine Codex:

****************************************************************
.XITOMATL:
 xitomatl: 
(esp jitomate) est la tomate telle qu'on la connait commun?ment en Europe. (La "tom?tl" est une esp?ce plus petite). Launey II 296. 
Cit?e en Sah1,47. Sah 10,68. 
Cit?e dans une liste de ce qui pousse en abondance ? Tlalocan. Sah3,47 = Launey II 296. 
 quit?caqueh in tla?lli in huauhtli in etl in ?y?tl in ch?lcotl in xitomatl , ils ont sem? du ma?s, de l'amarante, des haricots, des courges, du piment vert, des tomates - sembraron maiz, bledo, frijol, calabaza, 'chile' verde, 'jitomate'. Cron.Mexicayotl 38. 
 y?llohpiciltic iuhquin xitomatl , les graines sont minuscules comme (celles) de la tomate - the centers are tiny like tomato (seeds). 
Est dit de la figue de barbarie, azcanochtli. Sah11,124. 
 in cequintin xitomatl ahn?zo izhuatomatl in conc?huayah n?uhtetl , les uns laissaient des tomates ou de petites tomates au nombre de quatre - some left four large tomatoes, or else small ones. Il s'agit d'un acte rituel. Sah2,80.
****************************************************************

I can't find this word in Carochi's Arte.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de John Sullivan
Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 24 de julio de 2013 10:23 a. m.
Para: Michael McCafferty
CC: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] xitomatl

Piyali All,
1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.
2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form, although it might have something to do with the fact that syllable-final w does?t occur in Spanish.
3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.
John

On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:

> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
> 
> Ever curious,
> 
> Michael
> 
> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> 
>> Thank you!!
>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl = 
>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can 
>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This 
>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a 
>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get 
>>> "xiuhtomatl".
>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a 
>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>>> John
>>> 
>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty 
>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>> 
>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology 
>>>>> of the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many 
>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that 
>>>>> are almost omnipresent.
>>>>> 
>>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>> 
>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>> 
>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but 
>>>> I don't think so.
>>>> 
>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a 
>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to 
>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds 
>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>> 
>>>> Michael
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
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From ipedrozar at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 15:35:28 2013
From: ipedrozar at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Iv=E1n_Pedroza?=)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:35:28 -0500
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <20130724064802.fw6faut34wosc48g@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.103528.0500.IPEDROZAR@GMAIL.COM>

I agree with Michael,  and i'd rather explore (again) something about
xictli and the appareance of jitomates.

2013/7/24 Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>

> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not green.
> tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
>
> Ever curious,
>
>
> Michael
>
> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>
>  Thank you!!
>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>>
>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>>         I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here
>>> goes.
>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>>> "xiuhtomatl".
>>>         This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so
>>> a
>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>>
>>>>  Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>>
>>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>>
>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>>
>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>>> I don't think so.
>>>>
>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>
>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>



-- 
Iv?n Pedroza
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 24 15:28:41 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:28:41 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <4E925870-7021-4995-B5CC-05904950D48C@me.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.112841.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:

> Piyali All,
> 1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.


This is simply not true, John. Both exist, as does a reflexive form 
with tomahua.


> 2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using
> "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form,
> although it might have something to do with the fact that
> syllable-final w does?t occur in Spanish.

I can't buy this explanation. Can you send me a sound file that shows this?


> 3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and
> that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.

Then, why are we calling the big red ones "green".

Michael


> John
>
> On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not
>> green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
>>
>> Ever curious,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>
>>> Thank you!!
>>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
>>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>>>> "xiuhtomatl".
>>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>>>
>>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>>>> I don't think so.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 24 15:37:09 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:37:09 -0400
Subject: xitomatl
In-Reply-To: <4E925870-7021-4995-B5CC-05904950D48C@me.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.113709.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

But back to my original question, John. How do you get tomatl from 
tomahua? I don't understand that change. I can see how tomatl could 
come from toma.

I found my copy of Karttunen's dictionary a little while ago and it 
appears that she supports my take on the etymology of the term 
xitomatl. Check out pages 326. Also, I just noticed that she has 
tomahu(i) with a citation.


Michael


Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:

> Piyali All,
> 1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.
> 2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using
> "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form,
> although it might have something to do with the fact that
> syllable-final w does?t occur in Spanish.
> 3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and
> that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.
> John
>
> On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not
>> green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
>>
>> Ever curious,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>
>>> Thank you!!
>>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
>>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
>>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
>>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
>>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
>>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
>>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
>>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
>>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
>>>> "xiuhtomatl".
>>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
>>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
>>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
>>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
>>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
>>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
>>>>>> almost omnipresent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> XICTLI, navel
>>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
>>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
>>>>>
>>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
>>>>> I don't think so.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
>>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
>>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
>>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 18:16:56 2013
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:16:56 -0400
Subject: tomatl
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.141656.0400.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

The etymology John proposes is not viable, but has all the looks of a folk
etymology.

The xi: in* xi:tomatl* is long, the a: in *toma:wa* is long (but I believe
this is an effect of the addition of the verbal suffix -*wa*).
(*toma:wi*does in fact exist but has the same intransitive meaning as
* toma:wa*)

* xi:toma* "to peel to scrape" which has long i: and short a, has the exact
form we a looking for and does not require us to mysteriously drop -w- or
-k- as the proposed derivations with *xik*- or *xiw*- would.

Furthermore it is the case that red tomatos differ from green tomatoes in
the fact that they are usually peeled before being used in Mexican cuisine.
>From the green tomato only the husk is removed, but most frequently red
tomatoes are either boiled or toasted and peeled before being ground into
salsa. It could also simply mean that it doesn't have the husk as the green
tomato does, so that it is already naturally "peeled".

So on the weight of the evidence *xitoma *is the best fit for a relation to
*xi:tomatl*.

The problem is that 1. *xi:tomatl* also seems to be derived from *tomatl*.
2. that we dont know is *xi:toma* is derived from *xi:tomatl *or the other
way round.

I would propose the following solution:

There is a root xi: that has to do with peeling. It is found in the verb
xi:ma "to shave, to peel, to make smooth". Karttunen enters it in her
dictionary as the hypothetical root *xi:p- only found as a bound morpheme
and with the variant xi: meaning "peeling, flaying, shaving"

I think xi:tomatl is  derived from tomatl with that prefix. So that Michael
is right it is a tomato that is peeled.

Best,
Magnus





-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From nosduhluap at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 24 17:29:15 2013
From: nosduhluap at hotmail.com (Paul Hudson)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:29:15 -0500
Subject: xitomatl
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.122915.0500.NOSDUHLUAP@HOTMAIL.COM>

If its any help, the Diccionario del n?huatl en el espa?ol de M?xico gives the origin of jitomate as the word xictomatl:
p. 73... Xic-t?matl. De xictli, ombligo, t?matl, tomate.
Tomate would refer to the little green fruit (Physalis philadelphica), sometimes called tomatillo, although what the connection is, I have no idea.

Paul 		 	   		  
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From rbenavides05 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 24 18:14:27 2013
From: rbenavides05 at hotmail.com (Rafael Benavides)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:14:27 -0500
Subject: Xitomatl (Rafael Benavides)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1374685201.14117.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.131427.0500.RBENAVIDES05@HOTMAIL.COM>

Hi guys,
Doesn't xi also mean big when it's attached at the beginning of the word? So wouldn't Xi-to/um(a)-tl mean a big tomato? Tomatoes were, after all, domesticated from berry-like fruit that became larger and diversified. The tom(a) I think does refer to the undressing something, like the foreskin of the more primitive tomatoes, similar to the tomatillo. The xitomatl, or jitomate, would have thus been a very large version of the other tomatoes. So the Xi-tom(a)-tl would just mean big tomato.

Maybe I'm wrong, but hopefully someone else can clarify.

Saludos!
Rafael Benavides


> From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 305, Issue 4
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:00:01 -0500
> 
> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
> 	nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> 
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: xitomatl (Michael McCafferty)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:37:09 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] xitomatl
> Message-ID: <20130724113709.k8hiaycn40o0c4sc at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=ISO-8859-1;	format="flowed"
> 
> But back to my original question, John. How do you get tomatl from 
> tomahua? I don't understand that change. I can see how tomatl could 
> come from toma.
> 
> I found my copy of Karttunen's dictionary a little while ago and it 
> appears that she supports my take on the etymology of the term 
> xitomatl. Check out pages 326. Also, I just noticed that she has 
> tomahu(i) with a citation.
> 
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> 
> > Piyali All,
> > 1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.
> > 2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using
> > "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form,
> > although it might have something to do with the fact that
> > syllable-final w does?t occur in Spanish.
> > 3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and
> > that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.
> > John
> >
> > On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not
> >> green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
> >>
> >> Ever curious,
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> >>
> >>> Thank you!!
> >>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
> >>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
> >>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
> >>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
> >>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
> >>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
> >>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
> >>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
> >>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
> >>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
> >>>> "xiuhtomatl".
> >>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
> >>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
> >>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
> >>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
> >>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
> >>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
> >>>>>> almost omnipresent.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> XICTLI, navel
> >>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
> >>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
> >>>>> I don't think so.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
> >>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
> >>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
> >>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
> >>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Nahuatl mailing list
> >>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 305, Issue 4
> ***************************************
 		 	   		  
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From tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 26 06:32:34 2013
From: tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com (De la Cruz)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 06:32:34 +0000
Subject: tomatl
In-Reply-To: <CAEj69czvDEWM7qB4Y2katwNUHZCs9zMSXSg79wka=33P1-rWzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUL.2013.063234.0000.TEPOXTECO3@HOTMAIL.COM>

Xiuhtomatlnozo Xihtomatl
Puede venir de xihtli/xiuhtli/xihuitl 'grande de edad o de tama?o' 
Otros ejemplos: 1. Xiuhtlacatl 'persona adulta'2. Xiuhcuahuitl '?rbol grande de muchos a?os'3. Xiuhpitzotl 'perco grande'

Considero que tomatl tiene estas dos ra?ces. 

 Saludos desde Chilangond?a.
 Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca'UW 'Artes Liberales'
Victoriano de la Cruz Cruzvcruz at al.uw.edu.pl   



> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:16:56 -0400
> From: magnuspharao at gmail.com
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] tomatl
> 
> The etymology John proposes is not viable, but has all the looks of a folk
> etymology.
> 
> The xi: in* xi:tomatl* is long, the a: in *toma:wa* is long (but I believe
> this is an effect of the addition of the verbal suffix -*wa*).
> (*toma:wi*does in fact exist but has the same intransitive meaning as
> * toma:wa*)
> 
> * xi:toma* "to peel to scrape" which has long i: and short a, has the exact
> form we a looking for and does not require us to mysteriously drop -w- or
> -k- as the proposed derivations with *xik*- or *xiw*- would.
> 
> Furthermore it is the case that red tomatos differ from green tomatoes in
> the fact that they are usually peeled before being used in Mexican cuisine.
> From the green tomato only the husk is removed, but most frequently red
> tomatoes are either boiled or toasted and peeled before being ground into
> salsa. It could also simply mean that it doesn't have the husk as the green
> tomato does, so that it is already naturally "peeled".
> 
> So on the weight of the evidence *xitoma *is the best fit for a relation to
> *xi:tomatl*.
> 
> The problem is that 1. *xi:tomatl* also seems to be derived from *tomatl*.
> 2. that we dont know is *xi:toma* is derived from *xi:tomatl *or the other
> way round.
> 
> I would propose the following solution:
> 
> There is a root xi: that has to do with peeling. It is found in the verb
> xi:ma "to shave, to peel, to make smooth". Karttunen enters it in her
> dictionary as the hypothetical root *xi:p- only found as a bound morpheme
> and with the variant xi: meaning "peeling, flaying, shaving"
> 
> I think xi:tomatl is  derived from tomatl with that prefix. So that Michael
> is right it is a tomato that is peeled.
> 
> Best,
> Magnus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. candidate
> Department of Anthropology
> 
> Brown University
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
> 
> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
> US: 001 401 651 8413
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From magnuspharao at gmail.com  Fri Jul 26 17:25:14 2013
From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 13:25:14 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 305, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1374858002.552.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUL.2013.132514.0400.MAGNUSPHARAO@GMAIL.COM>

Lo siento pero no lo considero una derivacion probable. El uso de xihtli
como aumentativo se limita un ciertos variantes regionales y no se conoce
en la mayoria de los variantes del nahuatl, ni en la mayoria de las fuentes
coloniales. Sin embargo la palabra xi:tomatl se conoce en todos los
variantes y en todas las fuentes coloniales. Ademas como digo es claro que
en la mayoria de variantes y en la variante colonial la palabra  xi:tomatl
 tiene el primer vocal largo y no tiene aspiraci?n glotal. Eso significa
que para creer en esa etimologia hay que primero creer que el variante de
la Huasteca donde existe esa derivacion es el variante originario de la
palabra xitomatl que despues se extendio a todos los demas variantes, y no
hay ninguna razon para pensar eso, y tambien hay que creer que la
derivacion augmentativo con "xiuh" es de gran antig?edad porque la
derivacion se tenia que extender a todos los variantes antes del tiempo
posclasico para poder explicar como la palabra se ha extendido del Nahuatl
a otros idiomas - y tampoco parece ser probable.

Me parece que estan intentando interpretar la etimologia de una palabra del
Nahuatl general y de gran antiguedad con procesos de derivacion que son
inovadoras en los variantes limitados que los tienen y que ni siquiera
explica bien el patron fonologica de la palabra. Eso no se puede considerar
mas de una etimologia popular sin peso academico.

Siempre hay que acordarse que porque una derivacion es posible y parece
plausible en su significado no significa que es real. Se requiere un
analisis riguroso comparativo que se basa en toda la evidencia y no solo en
un variante contemporaneo especifico. En este caso la evidencia completa
sugiere que no se deriva de una raiz xiuh- ni xic-.

Magnus


On 26 July 2013 13:00, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:

> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
>         nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: tomatl (De la Cruz)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: De la Cruz <tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com>
> To: Famsi <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 06:32:34 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tomatl
> Xiuhtomatlnozo Xihtomatl
> Puede venir de xihtli/xiuhtli/xihuitl 'grande de edad o de tama?o'
> Otros ejemplos: 1. Xiuhtlacatl 'persona adulta'2. Xiuhcuahuitl '?rbol
> grande de muchos a?os'3. Xiuhpitzotl 'perco grande'
>
> Considero que tomatl tiene estas dos ra?ces.
>
>  Saludos desde Chilangond?a.
>  Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca'UW 'Artes Liberales'
> Victoriano de la Cruz Cruzvcruz at al.uw.edu.pl
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:16:56 -0400
> > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com
> > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > Subject: [Nahuat-l] tomatl
> >
> > The etymology John proposes is not viable, but has all the looks of a
> folk
> > etymology.
> >
> > The xi: in* xi:tomatl* is long, the a: in *toma:wa* is long (but I
> believe
> > this is an effect of the addition of the verbal suffix -*wa*).
> > (*toma:wi*does in fact exist but has the same intransitive meaning as
> > * toma:wa*)
> >
> > * xi:toma* "to peel to scrape" which has long i: and short a, has the
> exact
> > form we a looking for and does not require us to mysteriously drop -w- or
> > -k- as the proposed derivations with *xik*- or *xiw*- would.
> >
> > Furthermore it is the case that red tomatos differ from green tomatoes in
> > the fact that they are usually peeled before being used in Mexican
> cuisine.
> > From the green tomato only the husk is removed, but most frequently red
> > tomatoes are either boiled or toasted and peeled before being ground into
> > salsa. It could also simply mean that it doesn't have the husk as the
> green
> > tomato does, so that it is already naturally "peeled".
> >
> > So on the weight of the evidence *xitoma *is the best fit for a relation
> to
> > *xi:tomatl*.
> >
> > The problem is that 1. *xi:tomatl* also seems to be derived from
> *tomatl*.
> > 2. that we dont know is *xi:toma* is derived from *xi:tomatl *or the
> other
> > way round.
> >
> > I would propose the following solution:
> >
> > There is a root xi: that has to do with peeling. It is found in the verb
> > xi:ma "to shave, to peel, to make smooth". Karttunen enters it in her
> > dictionary as the hypothetical root *xi:p- only found as a bound morpheme
> > and with the variant xi: meaning "peeling, flaying, shaving"
> >
> > I think xi:tomatl is  derived from tomatl with that prefix. So that
> Michael
> > is right it is a tomato that is peeled.
> >
> > Best,
> > Magnus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Magnus Pharao Hansen
> > PhD. candidate
> > Department of Anthropology
> >
> > Brown University
> > 128 Hope St.
> > Providence, RI 02906
> >
> > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
> > US: 001 401 651 8413
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>


-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From clayton at indiana.edu  Wed Jul 31 21:23:49 2013
From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 17:23:49 -0400
Subject: tlaimetl
Message-ID: <WED.31.JUL.2013.172349.0400.CLAYTON@INDIANA.EDU>

Hello All,

     Joe and I have been working on a cluster of words which, so far, 
we have not been able to analyze completely into known pieces. The 
semantic field is 'stinginess', 'avarice'.  We would like to put out a 
couple of questions and also see if others know of related forms that 
we don't have.  I?ll put the information that we have and our questions 
below, along with my thoughts on the subject.

Mary

     The most basic form we have appears to be tlai(h)me-tl. Various 
forms of the words occur with and without the i, which thus looks like 
a "supportive i" to provide a syllable-initial vowel for a following 
glottal stop, but we have no examples with glottal stops following this 
i, or where it should be, and there are no forms in our data where the 
i is initial. In fact, there is no initial ime- or ihme- in Joe's 
entire data set from the three Molina dictionaries and the Florentine 
Codex or my data from Ayer ms 1478 (Vocabulario triling?e).
     Does anyone know of any other variably occurring i's, (except for 
those in -itl words such as maitl)?
     For this i to occur in initial position, not only would tla(i)metl 
need to be a deverbal noun -- not impossible, given the occurrence of 
root patientives and non-active forms in -hua -- but the tla would have 
to be an object on a non-basic verb form that would have to have 
undergone yet another stage of verbing (or transitivizing) from a form 
with initial i.  This does NOT look possible.
     Of the ten forms of the word that we have, only one has only one 
tla-. All of the others begin with tla(h)tla. There is one example of 
this glottal stop, suggesting that the initial tla(h)- is 
reduplicative.This noun forms a verb with -ti, which appears to be a 
normal intransitive verb. In all cases where Molina lists the verb 
forms with prefixes, he has only ni after the comma, not nitla. This is 
somewhat weak evidence for an intransitive verb, since Molina is known 
to make mistakes with prefixes. But independent of that, there is no 
reason to think that the verb is transitive and that the first tla is 
an object. (And recall the one example of tlah, suggesting 
reduplication.)

     Lacking further information, I'm going to code these with a basic 
morpheme tlaimetl (the -tl comes off, of course).

     It's not every day that we just "invent" a morpheme. Does anyone 
have any thoughts, suggestions or comments? Any other analyses?

     Below, I list all of the types that we have, and below those, all 
of the tokens with glosses, sources and suggested morphology.

			Molina		Sahagun	Ayer ms. 1478
	With i		12		0		0
	Without i	  9		6		2
	Total		21		6		2
[my apologies if the columns don't line up. They did when I started]

Word Types
  tlatlaimetl.
  tlahtlametl.
  tlatlametl.
  tlatlamepan.
  tlatlameyotl.
  tlaimeti , ni.
  tlatlaimeti , ni.
  tlatlameti , ni.
  tlatlameti.
  tlatlaimetiliztli.

Word Tokens
  tlatlaimetl.      dupl-tlaimetl
   escasso {55m}
   escasso {71m1}
   guardador escasso {71m1}
   mezquino {71m1}
   miserable escasso {71m1}
   auariento o escasso {71m2}

  tlahtlametl.      dupl-tlaimetl
   ___  << 7  2>>
   avaricious person  <<10  3>>

  tlatlametl.      dupl-tlaimetl
   auariento {55m}
   auariento {71m1}
   avaricious  <<10  1>>
   avaricious person  <<10  3>>

  (from Ayer MS 1478)
  tlatlametl.  dupl-tlaimetl
     tlatlame/tl. {4r1.19} Abonado en hazienda. preditus. assiduus.
     tlatla/metl. (tzotzoca). {25v1.09} Auariento en cabo. auaRus, a, um.

  tlatlamepan.      dupl-tlaimetl-pan
   place of avarice  << 4 11>>

  tlatlameyotl.      dupl-tlaimetl-yoa:-l2-tl
   auaricia, o escaseza {71m1}
   escasseza o auaricia {71m2}

  tlaimeti , ni.      tlaimetl-v01a ,  p11
   guardar hazienda {71m1}

  tlatlaimeti , ni.      dupl-tlaimetl-v01a , pll
   guardar hazienda {55m}
   ser auariento {71m2}

  tlatlameti , ni.     dupl-tlaimetl-v01a ,  p11
   auaricia tener {55m}
   guardar hazienda {55m}
   guardar hazienda {71m1}
   auaricia tener {71m1}
   ser auariento {71m2}

  tlatlameti.     dupl-tlaimetl-v01a
   he is avaricious  <<10  3>>

  tlatlaimetiliztli.      dupl-tlaimetl-v01a-liz-tl
   auaricia {55m}
   auaricia, o escaseza {71m1}
   escasseza o auaricia {71m2}



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