Xitomatl (Rafael Benavides)

Wed Jul 24 18:14:27 UTC 2013

Hi guys,
Doesn't xi also mean big when it's attached at the beginning of the word? So wouldn't Xi-to/um(a)-tl mean a big tomato? Tomatoes were, after all, domesticated from berry-like fruit that became larger and diversified. The tom(a) I think does refer to the undressing something, like the foreskin of the more primitive tomatoes, similar to the tomatillo. The xitomatl, or jitomate, would have thus been a very large version of the other tomatoes. So the Xi-tom(a)-tl would just mean big tomato.

Maybe I'm wrong, but hopefully someone else can clarify.

Saludos!
Rafael Benavides

> From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 305, Issue 4
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:00:01 -0500
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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: xitomatl (Michael McCafferty)
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:37:09 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] xitomatl
> Message-ID: <20130724113709.k8hiaycn40o0c4sc at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=ISO-8859-1;	format="flowed"
> 
> But back to my original question, John. How do you get tomatl from 
> tomahua? I don't understand that change. I can see how tomatl could 
> come from toma.
> 
> I found my copy of Karttunen's dictionary a little while ago and it 
> appears that she supports my take on the etymology of the term 
> xitomatl. Check out pages 326. Also, I just noticed that she has 
> tomahu(i) with a citation.
> 
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> 
> > Piyali All,
> > 1. There is no "tomahui". "-hua" is an intransitive verbing suffix.
> > 2. The devoiced w is audible when pronounced by native speakers using
> > "xiuh-". I don't know why it is lost in the hispanicized form,
> > although it might have something to do with the fact that
> > syllable-final w does´t occur in Spanish.
> > 3. We all know that tomate refers to the little green tomatoes, and
> > that jitomate refers to the plumper red tomatoes.
> > John
> >
> > On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> One final problem I see, Susana, is that xitomatl is generally not
> >> green. tomatl are green; xitomatl are red, yellow even.
> >>
> >> Ever curious,
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> >>
> >>> Thank you!!
> >>> so......... xitomatl = xihuitl + tomahua = xiuhtomatl =
> >>> intensely-swollen (thing)?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 24/07/2013 04:13, John Sullivan wrote:
> >>>> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
> >>>> 	I think we have already discussed this on the list, but here goes.
> >>>> 1. tomatl is a morpheme, or at least its root, "toma-" is. You can
> >>>> add the intransitive verbing suffix, "-hua" to it to get "tomahua".
> >>>> 2. the noun "xihuitl", meaning "grass, green stone, turquoise". This
> >>>> is cited from Fran's dictionary where she adds "It also serves as a
> >>>> modifier for heat, indicating intensity" (324). So we put "xihuitl"
> >>>> into its combining form, "xiuh", add it to "tomato" and we get
> >>>> "xiuhtomatl".
> >>>> 	This "xiuh-" is also used in Huastecan Nahuatl to big things, so a
> >>>> "xiuhtlacatl" is a very big man.
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Michael McCafferty
> >>>> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Quoting Susana Moraleda <susana at losrancheros.org>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Niltze nocniuhhuan,
> >>>>>> I would like to understand, once and for all, the real ethymology of
> >>>>>> the word XITOMATL. I've searched and searched, and found many
> >>>>>> different (and often absurd) sources, but three are the ones that are
> >>>>>> almost omnipresent.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> XICTLI, navel
> >>>>>> XITOMA, peel off
> >>>>>> TOMAHUAC, fat
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is a good question, Susana.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> xi:ctli is not the source, as we'd have xi:ctomatl instead xi:tomatl.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Someone once told me that 'tomatl' came from toma:hua 'swell', but
> >>>>> I don't think so.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It seems the origin is the "peel" idea, and that there is a
> >>>>> morpheme with two allomorphs, xi:p- and xi:-, and they refer to
> >>>>> peeling. The toma is toma/tomi 'for something to loosen up'. Sounds
> >>>>> like people skinned these colorful xi:tomatl.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
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