From bleeming at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 13:21:52 2013
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:21:52 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2013.092152.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

Hello all, I'm stuck on a passage from a 16th cent. ecclesiastical Nahuatl
text detailing the suffering of sinners in hell (my favorite subject).
 Here's the wider context:

"cenca yyac in tlequiquiztli: ytleyo ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque, huel
cenca temamauhtin inic hiyac...

My question is concerning the phrase "ytleyo ytlan."

Another instance is "ytleyo in itlan quimōmamaya."

Any ideas?  Thanks!

Ben

-- 
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PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From bleeming at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 16:51:21 2013
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:51:21 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
In-Reply-To: <20130620113626.dxxlbh2nco0oks08@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2013.125121.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

Hi Michael -

Yes, I also suspect "tletl" as the source of "itleyo" and "itlan" seems
obvious.  What I'm getting hung up on is their use together in this
particular case.  Maybe it's because I have been so immersed in Nahuatl
poetics that I am seeing couplets, parallelism, and difrasismos everywhere!


This is what I've got right now for "cenca yyac in tlequiquiztli: ytleyo
ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque":

"the brimstone (sulfur, etc.) is very foul-smelling, [the demons] afflict
them with its fireyness(?)"  (I know "tlequiquiztli" is technically
"firearm", but elsewhere in this section we see "tlequiquiztlalli" which, I
suspect, is intended here...I could be mistaken, though... I kind of like
the image of gun-toting demons!!)

I just don't really know what to make of the "itlan" following on the heels
of the "itleyo."

Anyway, your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.  I'm copying the list
to see if we can get any additional thoughts.

Ben

-- 
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PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Jun 20 20:16:49 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 16:16:49 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2013.161649.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Ben,

I typically ascribe the old adage that "everything you know is wrong," 
but I'm pretty confident that in this case this is not a difrasimo. :-) 
It's like saying "nocal i(i)xco," motlahtol ipampa. So, the itlan 
refers to the itleyo. See?

tlequiquiztli, yes, means, literally a 'fire-conch," or "gun". I'm not
aware of any other meaning besides 'gun'.

Since the friars' people had guns, and the Indians knew about them, it 
seems that guns are exactly the nastiness they are referring to. I 
could imagine that the memory of gun-toting Spaniards might evoke a 
sense of the demonic.

I don't know tlequiquiztlalli, but that sound like 'gun powder' to me.

ihiyohuiliztli is of course 'misery', and I think your interpretation 
of that verb is sound.

Michael



Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:

> Hi Michael -
>
> Yes, I also suspect "tletl" as the source of "itleyo" and "itlan" seems
> obvious.  What I'm getting hung up on is their use together in this
> particular case.  Maybe it's because I have been so immersed in Nahuatl
> poetics that I am seeing couplets, parallelism, and difrasismos everywhere!
>
>
> This is what I've got right now for "cenca yyac in tlequiquiztli: ytleyo
> ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque":
>
> "the brimstone (sulfur, etc.) is very foul-smelling, [the demons] afflict
> them with its fireyness(?)"  (I know "tlequiquiztli" is technically
> "firearm", but elsewhere in this section we see "tlequiquiztlalli" which, I
> suspect, is intended here...I could be mistaken, though... I kind of like
> the image of gun-toting demons!!)
>
> I just don't really know what to make of the "itlan" following on the heels
> of the "itleyo."
>
> Anyway, your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.  I'm copying the list
> to see if we can get any additional thoughts.
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
>




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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 21 17:17:58 2013
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:17:58 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2013.131758.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Hey Ben,

   When I saw the sequence "ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque", I thought it 
was likely to be an "out-rigger" construction, like "moca nihuetzca" (I 
laugh at you), where (from the point of view of English) an argument of 
the verb is sent out with a relational noun (or postposition).  But the 
first reason to reject that possibility is that the following verb 
already has an object (quin-).

   But then I realized that "tlequiquiztli ytleyo" is probably a phrase
('the fireness of the gun'), so "ytlan" would be related to that whole phrase
('next to [or close to] the fireness of the gun).  I thought that the 
verb would mean 'will make them suffer', but that doesn't compute well, 
since its subject is plural, not singular.

   That's the extent of my progress...

Joe

p.s.  I think that I might benefit from more context.


Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:

> Hello all, I'm stuck on a passage from a 16th cent. ecclesiastical Nahuatl
> text detailing the suffering of sinners in hell (my favorite subject).
> Here's the wider context:
>
> "cenca yyac in tlequiquiztli: ytleyo ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque, huel
> cenca temamauhtin inic hiyac...
>
> My question is concerning the phrase "ytleyo ytlan."
>
> Another instance is "ytleyo in itlan quim?mamaya."
>
> Any ideas?  Thanks!
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 21 17:22:01 2013
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:22:01 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
In-Reply-To: <20130621131758.bdg964qlj48ssgc0@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2013.132201.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Some possessive phrases:

tepetl i-xillan        side of a hill

xonacatl i-tzon        onion's shoots / greens

tlalli i-pocyo         vapor of the earth

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From bleeming at gmail.com  Fri Jun 21 18:30:01 2013
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:30:01 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
In-Reply-To: <20130621132201.d08ngr1pwc0w4cgw@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2013.143001.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

Joe (and Magnus and Michael): thank you for your insights.  I think I've
got it now: "The fire of the arquebus is very smelly. They will make them
suffer by/in it" (that's Magnus' wording).  What I'm taking away from this
is that you have to think very carefully about what/who those possessive
prefixes refer to.  The "ytleyo" wasn't that difficult - I've seen examples
such as those you sent - but it was the "ytlan" and my need to work it
literally into my translation that was hanging me up.

These exchanges are poor substitutes for the kind of in-person work we do
when we are all in one room, but in the interim it sure is great to engage
with other nahuatlahtos in wrestling with these things.

Thanks again,

Ben

-- 
Ben Leeming
PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From jdanahuatl at gmail.com  Fri Jun 21 20:45:03 2013
From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 15:45:03 -0500
Subject: stuck on a phrase
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErVdB1O7En7Qj4mf4hH-1Us6OgCcmckyYHqoN3CRzRQzCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2013.154503.0500.JDANAHUATL@GMAIL.COM>

Hi,

I am not sure of the translation but part/whole relations are expressed
through -yo possession. Thus for example if a chip of metal flies off a
crowbar one might say o:ki:s i:teposyo. Or if a chair is missing its cloth
cover, xkipia (=a:mo kipia) i:tlake:nyo. This part/whole use does not
extend to body parts used metaphorically (e.g., kwawitl i:ma:  'the branch
of a tree').

I would assume that the most likely syntax would be a couplet with itleyo,
itlan being possessed by tlequiquiztli perhaps the latter referring to its
bullet. The agent of tlaihiyohuiltia but the verb as I know it makes 'to
cause to suffer' (tlahyowi:ltia). Te:mamauhtih would be translated as
'frightening'.

Jonathan


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello all, I'm stuck on a passage from a 16th cent. ecclesiastical Nahuatl
> text detailing the suffering of sinners in hell (my favorite subject).
>  Here's the wider context:
>
> "cenca yyac in tlequiquiztli: ytleyo ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque, huel
> cenca temamauhtin inic hiyac...
>
> My question is concerning the phrase "ytleyo ytlan."
>
> Another instance is "ytleyo in itlan quimōmamaya."
>
> Any ideas?  Thanks!
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 24 06:08:35 2013
From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 23:08:35 -0700
Subject: squash seeds as a groseria
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2013.230835.0700.TOMGRIGSBY@YAHOO.COM>

Listeros,
Has anyone else found ayohhuachtli(squash
seed) used to as a grosería to refer to the vulva by Náhuatl speakers? I have
found that term used by speakers in Morelos and Guerrero. 
Thanks,
Tom Grigsby
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From fa.moreira.r at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 17:20:31 2013
From: fa.moreira.r at gmail.com (Fernando Moreira)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 10:20:31 -0700
Subject: Ayohhuachtli, Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 1
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2013.102031.0700.FA.MOREIRA.R@GMAIL.COM>

Tom,

This is a very interesting euphemism. There are some interesting
correlations with other Mexican cultures relating the vulva or vagina to
squash and chayote. If you are not already aware In Popoluca Zoque the
ashes of the vagina of Chichiman (a sorceres) are sown by the hero to
produce calabash and chayote (Chevalier & Buckles 1995:288), I believe it
was first reported by Lopez Austin. According to Guiteras Holmes (1961),
Cabinala was taken to the woods to urinate, the first time she urinated
squash sprouted, the second time it was chayote. In Tzutujil there is a
story on how the first sun and first moon kill there grandmother in a
sweatbath, were she remains as a guisquil (chayote). According to Simeon
(taken from Chevalier, as I havent seen another reference) uterus used to
be called tepilquaxicalli, xicalli being a calabash in Pajapan "xigal" also
stands for vulva. It seems reasonable that squash seeds are also used in
this derogatory manner.

Cheers,

*Fernando A. Moreira, B.A.
*Cell: (403)970.1228
VoIP YYC: (587)887.6892
Skype: fa.moreira.r
E-mail : fa.moreira.r at gmail.com
E-mail : fmoreira at ucalgary.ca


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 10:00 AM, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:

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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 23:08:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>
> To: "Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] squash seeds as a groseria
> Message-ID:
>         <1372054115.34320.YahooMailNeo at web120805.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Listeros,
> Has anyone else found ayohhuachtli(squash
> seed) used to as a grosería to refer to the vulva by Náhuatl speakers? I
> have
> found that term used by speakers in Morelos and Guerrero.
> Thanks,
> Tom Grigsby
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 1
> ***************************************
>
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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Mon Jun 24 18:06:24 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 13:06:24 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1371834002.24681.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2013.130624.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

i tlan = el diente de el o ella. i= pertenecia.tlan-tlantle= diente.
itlante/ itlanyo = su diente,

Gracias. 		 	   		  
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From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Mon Jun 24 20:29:08 2013
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (Baert Georges)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 22:29:08 +0200
Subject: Ayohhuachtli
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2013.222908.0200.LAHUNIK.62@SKYNET.BE>

Message 1, Nahuatl Digest, Vol.302, Issu1

Ayohhuachtli.

Groseria and vulva, are Spanish words for resp. impudence and female or male
genitals I presume.

I have find for instance ayohhuachtli in a list of fruits of Sah.8,68.

If you could see the female or male genitals as a fruit, where is than the
impudence or the "groseria"?

Lahun Ik 62

Baert Georges

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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Mon Jun 24 21:21:15 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 16:21:15 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1372093202.16025.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2013.162115.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

Hola para mí
no es grosería Ayohuaxtli, para referirse a la vagina o vulva en tono  vulgar
o grosero utilizamos, kuilchil, inclusive hay un jitomate de la región centro
del estado de Veracruz con una característica muy particular al que llaman
Kuilchiltomatl refiriéndose al parecido con la vagina.

 

Gracias

 Atte.

Jacinto Acatecatl
N.
 		 	   		  
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From cuecuex at gmail.com  Wed Jun 26 02:45:12 2013
From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 02:45:12 +0000
Subject: squash seeds as a groseria
In-Reply-To: <1372054115.34320.YahooMailNeo@web120805.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2013.024512.0000.CUECUEX@GMAIL.COM>

Estimado Tom

No te puedo decir si en otra parte del país se use el término nahuatl
ayohhuachtli

 Lo que si te puedo decir que a las semillas de calabaza que
comunmente  se le llama o se le conoce como pepitas o pepas y pueden
ser tambien de chilacayote,  y pepa o pepita es una de las mas comunes
formas de llamar en México a a la vulva o la región genital de las
mujeres, términos todos usados frecuente y cotodianamente en el
español de  habla cotidiana del pueblo llano, de nosotros los modernos
macehuales, los que formamos parte del populacho, del peladaje, de los
nacos, de la juventud chaka estigmatizada por un estupido racismo
clasista

Otras formas para nombrar la vulva femenina también son vocablos que
tienen que ver con el comer.

 Por ejemplo se le llama también el queso, el  guayabo, la panocha, la papaya

Compartiendo contigo mi orígen  humilde y mi lenguaje guarro

Roberto Romero Gutierrez





2013/6/24, grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>:
> Listeros,
> Has anyone else found ayohhuachtli(squash
> seed) used to as a grosería to refer to the vulva by Náhuatl speakers? I
> have
> found that term used by speakers in Morelos and Guerrero.
> Thanks,
> Tom Grigsby
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
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From bleeming at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 02:10:05 2013
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 22:10:05 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2013.221005.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

Any takers on these?

1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!

2.  The plural of malinalli?

3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...


Thanks!

Ben

-- 
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PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Fri Jun 28 04:05:02 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 23:05:02 -0500
Subject: RV:  scatter-shot questions
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2013.230502.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Muy apreciado Ben:

Apunto mi análisis de una glosa del Códice de Huichapan donde aparece el nombre del señor mexica que mencionas, con una transcripción, una versión fonémica, un análisis morfémico y finalmente una traducción. Cualquier crítica es bienvenida.

Glosa hui17r.02
Ilhuicaminatl ueuemotecçuma
|ilhuicamīnatl huēhueh motēuczōmah|
(|ilhuicatl| – |tl|) + |mīna| + |tl| |huēhueh| |mo| + (|tēuctli| – |tli|) + |zōmā| (|ā| > |a|) + |h|
sustantivo: “cielo” • verbo: tirar flecha • sufijo absolutivo*  • sustantivo: “viejo/anciano” • prefijo reflexivo • sustantivo: “señor” • verbo: “hacer gesto de enojado” • sufijo pretérito “Ilhuicaminatl Huehue Moteuczoma, ‘el flechador del cielo, señor enojado el viejo’”.

* Aparentemente se trata de otorgar un carácter nominal de la palabra ilhuicamina, que usualmente no lleva este sufijo.

Lo tomé de una versión revisada del segundo volumen de mi tesis doctoral "Los otomíes: cultura, lengua y escritura". Hace poco subí la versión original, de 2005, a ResearchGate:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Wright-Carr/?ev=prf_highl

Saludos,

David

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Ben Leeming Enviado el: jueves, 27 de junio de 2013 09:10 p. m.
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions

Any takers on these?

1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!

2.  The plural of malinalli?

3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...


Thanks!

Ben

--
Ben Leeming
PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 28 10:40:17 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:40:17 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErWQG-aEZKKUrav=2VUf5zxj78hs17uiLJbfdw_wvz=TkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.064017.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:

> Any takers on these?
>
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!

Moteuczoma
>
> 2.  The plural of malinalli?

malinalli

>
> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...


Chimalma sounds good for your translation, Ben.

Michael

>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Fri Jun 28 05:29:09 2013
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (BT Yahoo!)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:29:09 +0100
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErWQG-aEZKKUrav=2VUf5zxj78hs17uiLJbfdw_wvz=TkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.062909.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

________________________________
 Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:-
> Any takers on these?
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!

Mote_uczo_mah = Mo - te_uc - zo_mah = "himself-lord-frowned = "he has frowned in anger like a lord".
+
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From idiez at me.com  Fri Jun 28 12:36:41 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:36:41 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErWQG-aEZKKUrav=2VUf5zxj78hs17uiLJbfdw_wvz=TkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.083641.0400.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Piyali Ben,
	I would consider the preterite agentive of  "mani" or "mana". If it's "mani", chimalli is an adverb. if it's "mana", chimalli is the object.
John

On Jun 27, 2013, at 10:10 PM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:

> Any takers on these?
> 
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> 2.  The plural of malinalli?
> 
> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ben
> 
> -- 
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 28 12:37:41 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:37:41 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.083741.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:

> Any takers on these?
>
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!

Ben,

As you know, phonetically speaking, the name is [mote:kwso:ma]. 
[-te:kw-] 'lord' offers transcriptional challenges, but it has been 
written -teuc- as well as -tecuh-, which can really throw someone off 
in terms of how the name should be pronounced. The English spelling 
"Montezuma" deftly sidesteps the whole issue, losing of course a great 
deal of the original pronunciation.

[so:ma:lli] is 'anger'.

[(mo)so:ma] means to 'to make an angry face, to frown".

I've sometimes wondered if Montezuma was in fact as serious as his name. :-)

Michael


>> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 28 12:50:19 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:50:19 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <20130628064017.qgf1efwpw4wgk8sw@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.085019.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

> Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
>
>> >>
>> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
>> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
>
>
> Chimalma sounds good for your translation, Ben.
>
> Michael
>
>>




Ben, that note on Chimalma from me took place ten minutes after I woke 
up this morning. Disregard it. "Shield-hand" would be chimalmaitl. One 
could have to explain the loss of the absolutive suffix.

:-)

Michael
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> --
>> Ben Leeming
>> PhD Student
>> Department of Anthropology
>> University at Albany, SUNY
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 28 14:10:36 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 10:10:36 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <DC38FE5D-6BF9-4286-AFA0-E44D8EDB36C6@me.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.101036.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

It's a challenge balancing teaching right now with looking at more 
important things like Ben's questions. :-)

John's answer sparked something just now as I'm awaiting the arrival of 
students.

This could be that rare locative suffix -ma:n which means something 
like "over all the surface of". This would work nicely for 
"Chilmalman," and the dropping of the final -n would not be unexpected.

Michael

Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:

> Piyali Ben,
> 	I would consider the preterite agentive of  "mani" or "mana". If
> it's "mani", chimalli is an adverb. if it's "mana", chimalli is the
> object.
> John
>
> On Jun 27, 2013, at 10:10 PM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Any takers on these?
>>
>> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
>> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
>> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
>>
>> 2.  The plural of malinalli?
>>
>> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
>> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> --
>> Ben Leeming
>> PhD Student
>> Department of Anthropology
>> University at Albany, SUNY
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Fri Jun 28 20:45:19 2013
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (Baert Georges)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 22:45:19 +0200
Subject: Moctezuma and Chimalmah
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.224519.0200.LAHUNIK.62@SKYNET.BE>

Nahuatl Digest, Vol.302, Issue 4, Message 1.

The correct English spelling of, Moteuczoma (with a long e and o) is not
Montezuma, but Moctezuma.

The whole tittle of Moteuczoma I is, Huehueh Moteuczoma Ilhuicamina
Chalchiuhtlatonac Tlahtoani Tenochtitlan (5th King of Mexico).

Moteuczoma II is the one who came on power in 1503, 11 Acatl.

Chimalmah, is the legendary Aztec heroine (Launey II, 206).

She is the 4th of the four teomamahqueh.

Chimalmatl is the 2nd wife of Iztac Mixcoatl, and mother of Quetzalcoatl
(SGA II, 1020)

Lahun Ik 62

Baert Georges

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From rbenavides05 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 28 18:07:10 2013
From: rbenavides05 at hotmail.com (Rafael Benavides)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 13:07:10 -0500
Subject: scatter-shot questions (Rafael Benavides)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1372438802.22754.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.130710.0500.RBENAVIDES05@HOTMAIL.COM>

Hi Ben,
I'm just a fan of Nahuatl but not really a scholar, so forgive my lack of linguistic understanding and very basic description below. I remember wondering about this too when I was first studying Nahuatl in Mexico. However, the native speakers that we teaching us were most familiar with a different variant and I don't think the "kw" was preserved in their language to the extent in which it was pronounced in Tenochtitlan's Nahuatl at the time of the conquest.

I recently attended the Maya Meetings in Austin a few months ago and took part in the first-ever Nahuatl Hieroglyphs course there. Dr. Marc Zender, and some other great scholars whose names I can't remember right now, informed me that the sound is more like a short "cu" but better spelled "kw." They had studied both the classical and several modern variants of Nahuatl in Mexico. So, what I learned was that it is pronounced more like MotekwSOma, with that "cu" sound being pronounced slightly enough to be audible, but the penultimate syllable takes precedence and dominates the overall sound of the name. I imagine that this sound is hard to hear and repeat for Hispanophones, so the scribes in Mexico did their best but, obviously, the Latin alphabet has some weaknesses for accurately writing phonetic pronunciations of different languages.
I hope that helps your curiosity. It's the same one I had.
Good luck!
Rafael Benavides


> From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 4
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 12:00:02 -0500
> 
> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
> 	nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> 
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> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. scatter-shot questions (Ben Leeming)
>    2. RV:  scatter-shot questions (David Wright)
>    3. Re: scatter-shot questions (Michael McCafferty)
>    4. Re: scatter-shot questions (BT Yahoo!)
>    5. Re: scatter-shot questions (John Sullivan)
>    6. Re: scatter-shot questions (Michael McCafferty)
>    7. Re: scatter-shot questions (Michael McCafferty)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 22:10:05 -0400
> From: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAN_9ErWQG-aEZKKUrav=2VUf5zxj78hs17uiLJbfdw_wvz=TkQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Any takers on these?
> 
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> 2.  The plural of malinalli?
> 
> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ben
> 
> -- 
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 23:05:02 -0500
> From: "David Wright" <dcwright at prodigy.net.mx>
> To: "Nahuat-l" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] RV:  scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <003601ce73b4$aa027b80$fe077280$@prodigy.net.mx>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Muy apreciado Ben:
> 
> Apunto mi análisis de una glosa del Códice de Huichapan donde aparece el nombre del señor mexica que mencionas, con una transcripción, una versión fonémica, un análisis morfémico y finalmente una traducción. Cualquier crítica es bienvenida.
> 
> Glosa hui17r.02
> Ilhuicaminatl ueuemotecçuma
> |ilhuicam?natl hu?hueh mot?ucz?mah|
> (|ilhuicatl| ? |tl|) + |m?na| + |tl| |hu?hueh| |mo| + (|t?uctli| ? |tli|) + |z?m?| (|?| > |a|) + |h|
> sustantivo: ?cielo? ? verbo: tirar flecha ? sufijo absolutivo*  ? sustantivo: ?viejo/anciano? ? prefijo reflexivo ? sustantivo: ?señor? ? verbo: ?hacer gesto de enojado? ? sufijo pretérito ?Ilhuicaminatl Huehue Moteuczoma, ?el flechador del cielo, señor enojado el viejo??.
> 
> * Aparentemente se trata de otorgar un carácter nominal de la palabra ilhuicamina, que usualmente no lleva este sufijo.
> 
> Lo tomé de una versión revisada del segundo volumen de mi tesis doctoral "Los otomíes: cultura, lengua y escritura". Hace poco subí la versión original, de 2005, a ResearchGate:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Wright-Carr/?ev=prf_highl
> 
> Saludos,
> 
> David
> 
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Ben Leeming Enviado el: jueves, 27 de junio de 2013 09:10 p. m.
> Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Asunto: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> 
> Any takers on these?
> 
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> 2.  The plural of malinalli?
> 
> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ben
> 
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:40:17 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <20130628064017.qgf1efwpw4wgk8sw at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=ISO-8859-1;	format="flowed"
> 
> Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
> 
> > Any takers on these?
> >
> > 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> Moteuczoma
> >
> > 2.  The plural of malinalli?
> 
> malinalli
> 
> >
> > 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> > Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> 
> 
> Chimalma sounds good for your translation, Ben.
> 
> Michael
> 
> >
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > --
> > Ben Leeming
> > PhD Student
> > Department of Anthropology
> > University at Albany, SUNY
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:29:09 +0100 (BST)
> From: BT Yahoo! <a.appleyard at btinternet.com>
> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID:
> 	<1372397349.57704.YahooMailNeo at web186102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:-
> > Any takers on these?
> > 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> Mote_uczo_mah = Mo - te_uc - zo_mah = "himself-lord-frowned = "he has frowned in anger like a lord".
> +
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:36:41 -0400
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <DC38FE5D-6BF9-4286-AFA0-E44D8EDB36C6 at me.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Piyali Ben,
> 	I would consider the preterite agentive of  "mani" or "mana". If it's "mani", chimalli is an adverb. if it's "mana", chimalli is the object.
> John
> 
> On Jun 27, 2013, at 10:10 PM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Any takers on these?
> > 
> > 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> > 
> > 2.  The plural of malinalli?
> > 
> > 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> > Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > Ben
> > 
> > -- 
> > Ben Leeming
> > PhD Student
> > Department of Anthropology
> > University at Albany, SUNY
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:37:41 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <20130628083741.nsdjybz1w84w40s0 at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=ISO-8859-1;	format="flowed"
> 
> Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
> 
> > Any takers on these?
> >
> > 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> Ben,
> 
> As you know, phonetically speaking, the name is [mote:kwso:ma]. 
> [-te:kw-] 'lord' offers transcriptional challenges, but it has been 
> written -teuc- as well as -tecuh-, which can really throw someone off 
> in terms of how the name should be pronounced. The English spelling 
> "Montezuma" deftly sidesteps the whole issue, losing of course a great 
> deal of the original pronunciation.
> 
> [so:ma:lli] is 'anger'.
> 
> [(mo)so:ma] means to 'to make an angry face, to frown".
> 
> I've sometimes wondered if Montezuma was in fact as serious as his name. :-)
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> >> Ben Leeming
> > PhD Student
> > Department of Anthropology
> > University at Albany, SUNY
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:50:19 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>, nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <20130628085019.hz5wmdvh9cgsc8sk at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=ISO-8859-1;	format="flowed"
> 
> 
> 
> > Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
> >
> >> >>
> >> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> >> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> >
> >
> > Chimalma sounds good for your translation, Ben.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ben, that note on Chimalma from me took place ten minutes after I woke 
> up this morning. Disregard it. "Shield-hand" would be chimalmaitl. One 
> could have to explain the loss of the absolutive suffix.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Michael
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Ben
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ben Leeming
> >> PhD Student
> >> Department of Anthropology
> >> University at Albany, SUNY
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nahuatl mailing list
> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 4
> ***************************************
 		 	   		  
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 28 22:39:39 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:39:39 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <20130628101036.z6o4apwgmckw0ckc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.183939.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>:

> It's a challenge balancing teaching right now with looking at more
> important things like Ben's questions. :-)
>
> John's answer sparked something just now as I'm awaiting the arrival
> of students.
>
> This could be that rare locative suffix -ma:n which means something
> like "over all the surface of". This would work nicely for
> "Chilmalman," and the dropping of the final -n would not be
> unexpected.
>
> Michael
>

That should be "Chimalman".

Michael

> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
>
>> Piyali Ben,
>> 	I would consider the preterite agentive of  "mani" or "mana". If
>> it's "mani", chimalli is an adverb. if it's "mana", chimalli is the
>> object.
>> John
>>
>> On Jun 27, 2013, at 10:10 PM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Any takers on these?
>>>
>>> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
>>> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
>>> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
>>>
>>> 2.  The plural of malinalli?
>>>
>>> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
>>> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Ben
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ben Leeming
>>> PhD Student
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> University at Albany, SUNY
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From b.leeming at rivers.org  Fri Jun 28 22:59:29 2013
From: b.leeming at rivers.org (Leeming, Ben)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:59:29 -0400
Subject: Moctezuma and Chimalmah
In-Reply-To: <000001ce7440$6769a9b0$363cfd10$@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.185929.0400.B.LEEMING@RIVERS.ORG>

Dear Baert, 

Can you explain how you justify the spelling "Moctezuma"?  In my mind there is only one correct spelling of the word: the Nahuatl spelling - rather than an English spelling, a Spanish spelling, etc.  From the point of view of Nahuatl morphology, I don't see how "Moctezuma" is feasible. 

As for your citation of "Chimalmatl", do you mean "Chimalmaitl"?  That would make sense. Can you tell me what SGA II, 1020 is?  I'd like to track this down. 

Thank you,

Ben

On Jun 28, 2013, at 4:54 PM, "Baert Georges" <lahunik.62 at skynet.be> wrote:

> Nahuatl Digest, Vol.302, Issue 4, Message 1.
> 
> The correct English spelling of, Moteuczoma (with a long e and o) is not
> Montezuma, but Moctezuma.
> 
> The whole tittle of Moteuczoma I is, Huehueh Moteuczoma Ilhuicamina
> Chalchiuhtlatonac Tlahtoani Tenochtitlan (5th King of Mexico).
> 
> Moteuczoma II is the one who came on power in 1503, 11 Acatl.
> 
> Chimalmah, is the legendary Aztec heroine (Launey II, 206).
> 
> She is the 4th of the four teomamahqueh.
> 
> Chimalmatl is the 2nd wife of Iztac Mixcoatl, and mother of Quetzalcoatl
> (SGA II, 1020)
> 
> Lahun Ik 62
> 
> Baert Georges
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sat Jun 29 02:28:01 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 22:28:01 -0400
Subject: Moctezuma and Chimalmah
In-Reply-To: <B958DD07-487B-4926-9159-B2EB7E89A9EB@rivers.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.222801.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

There are a number of spellings lying around in English writings, Ben, 
and Baert has pointed out one of them. A town on the Wabash River is 
named after the Aztec ruler, and is spelled Montezuma, which is one of 
the spellings you'll see elsewhere in English.

Also, should add that in the phonetic spelling [mote:kwso:ma], that 
[-kw-] is not [kw] as in "quick," but should be written with a small 
raised w. That Nahuatl phoneme is an unaspirated labiovelar stop and 
sounds something like the -qu- in "squid".

Michael

Quoting "Leeming, Ben" <b.leeming at rivers.org>:

> Dear Baert,
>
> Can you explain how you justify the spelling "Moctezuma"?  In my mind
> there is only one correct spelling of the word: the Nahuatl spelling
> - rather than an English spelling, a Spanish spelling, etc.  From the
> point of view of Nahuatl morphology, I don't see how "Moctezuma" is
> feasible.
>
> As for your citation of "Chimalmatl", do you mean "Chimalmaitl"?
> That would make sense. Can you tell me what SGA II, 1020 is?  I'd
> like to track this down.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ben
>
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 4:54 PM, "Baert Georges" <lahunik.62 at skynet.be> wrote:
>
>> Nahuatl Digest, Vol.302, Issue 4, Message 1.
>>
>> The correct English spelling of, Moteuczoma (with a long e and o) is not
>> Montezuma, but Moctezuma.
>>
>> The whole tittle of Moteuczoma I is, Huehueh Moteuczoma Ilhuicamina
>> Chalchiuhtlatonac Tlahtoani Tenochtitlan (5th King of Mexico).
>>
>> Moteuczoma II is the one who came on power in 1503, 11 Acatl.
>>
>> Chimalmah, is the legendary Aztec heroine (Launey II, 206).
>>
>> She is the 4th of the four teomamahqueh.
>>
>> Chimalmatl is the 2nd wife of Iztac Mixcoatl, and mother of Quetzalcoatl
>> (SGA II, 1020)
>>
>> Lahun Ik 62
>>
>> Baert Georges
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> _______________________________________________
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> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From bleeming at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 13:21:52 2013
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:21:52 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2013.092152.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

Hello all, I'm stuck on a passage from a 16th cent. ecclesiastical Nahuatl
text detailing the suffering of sinners in hell (my favorite subject).
 Here's the wider context:

"cenca yyac in tlequiquiztli: ytleyo ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque, huel
cenca temamauhtin inic hiyac...

My question is concerning the phrase "ytleyo ytlan."

Another instance is "ytleyo in itlan quim?mamaya."

Any ideas?  Thanks!

Ben

-- 
Ben Leeming
PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From bleeming at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 16:51:21 2013
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:51:21 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
In-Reply-To: <20130620113626.dxxlbh2nco0oks08@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2013.125121.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

Hi Michael -

Yes, I also suspect "tletl" as the source of "itleyo" and "itlan" seems
obvious.  What I'm getting hung up on is their use together in this
particular case.  Maybe it's because I have been so immersed in Nahuatl
poetics that I am seeing couplets, parallelism, and difrasismos everywhere!


This is what I've got right now for "cenca yyac in tlequiquiztli: ytleyo
ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque":

"the brimstone (sulfur, etc.) is very foul-smelling, [the demons] afflict
them with its fireyness(?)"  (I know "tlequiquiztli" is technically
"firearm", but elsewhere in this section we see "tlequiquiztlalli" which, I
suspect, is intended here...I could be mistaken, though... I kind of like
the image of gun-toting demons!!)

I just don't really know what to make of the "itlan" following on the heels
of the "itleyo."

Anyway, your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.  I'm copying the list
to see if we can get any additional thoughts.

Ben

-- 
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PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Jun 20 20:16:49 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 16:16:49 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2013.161649.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Ben,

I typically ascribe the old adage that "everything you know is wrong," 
but I'm pretty confident that in this case this is not a difrasimo. :-) 
It's like saying "nocal i(i)xco," motlahtol ipampa. So, the itlan 
refers to the itleyo. See?

tlequiquiztli, yes, means, literally a 'fire-conch," or "gun". I'm not
aware of any other meaning besides 'gun'.

Since the friars' people had guns, and the Indians knew about them, it 
seems that guns are exactly the nastiness they are referring to. I 
could imagine that the memory of gun-toting Spaniards might evoke a 
sense of the demonic.

I don't know tlequiquiztlalli, but that sound like 'gun powder' to me.

ihiyohuiliztli is of course 'misery', and I think your interpretation 
of that verb is sound.

Michael



Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:

> Hi Michael -
>
> Yes, I also suspect "tletl" as the source of "itleyo" and "itlan" seems
> obvious.  What I'm getting hung up on is their use together in this
> particular case.  Maybe it's because I have been so immersed in Nahuatl
> poetics that I am seeing couplets, parallelism, and difrasismos everywhere!
>
>
> This is what I've got right now for "cenca yyac in tlequiquiztli: ytleyo
> ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque":
>
> "the brimstone (sulfur, etc.) is very foul-smelling, [the demons] afflict
> them with its fireyness(?)"  (I know "tlequiquiztli" is technically
> "firearm", but elsewhere in this section we see "tlequiquiztlalli" which, I
> suspect, is intended here...I could be mistaken, though... I kind of like
> the image of gun-toting demons!!)
>
> I just don't really know what to make of the "itlan" following on the heels
> of the "itleyo."
>
> Anyway, your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.  I'm copying the list
> to see if we can get any additional thoughts.
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
>




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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 21 17:17:58 2013
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:17:58 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2013.131758.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Hey Ben,

   When I saw the sequence "ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque", I thought it 
was likely to be an "out-rigger" construction, like "moca nihuetzca" (I 
laugh at you), where (from the point of view of English) an argument of 
the verb is sent out with a relational noun (or postposition).  But the 
first reason to reject that possibility is that the following verb 
already has an object (quin-).

   But then I realized that "tlequiquiztli ytleyo" is probably a phrase
('the fireness of the gun'), so "ytlan" would be related to that whole phrase
('next to [or close to] the fireness of the gun).  I thought that the 
verb would mean 'will make them suffer', but that doesn't compute well, 
since its subject is plural, not singular.

   That's the extent of my progress...

Joe

p.s.  I think that I might benefit from more context.


Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:

> Hello all, I'm stuck on a passage from a 16th cent. ecclesiastical Nahuatl
> text detailing the suffering of sinners in hell (my favorite subject).
> Here's the wider context:
>
> "cenca yyac in tlequiquiztli: ytleyo ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque, huel
> cenca temamauhtin inic hiyac...
>
> My question is concerning the phrase "ytleyo ytlan."
>
> Another instance is "ytleyo in itlan quim?mamaya."
>
> Any ideas?  Thanks!
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 21 17:22:01 2013
From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:22:01 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
In-Reply-To: <20130621131758.bdg964qlj48ssgc0@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2013.132201.0400.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

Some possessive phrases:

tepetl i-xillan        side of a hill

xonacatl i-tzon        onion's shoots / greens

tlalli i-pocyo         vapor of the earth

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From bleeming at gmail.com  Fri Jun 21 18:30:01 2013
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:30:01 -0400
Subject: stuck on a phrase
In-Reply-To: <20130621132201.d08ngr1pwc0w4cgw@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2013.143001.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

Joe (and Magnus and Michael): thank you for your insights.  I think I've
got it now: "The fire of the arquebus is very smelly. They will make them
suffer by/in it" (that's Magnus' wording).  What I'm taking away from this
is that you have to think very carefully about what/who those possessive
prefixes refer to.  The "ytleyo" wasn't that difficult - I've seen examples
such as those you sent - but it was the "ytlan" and my need to work it
literally into my translation that was hanging me up.

These exchanges are poor substitutes for the kind of in-person work we do
when we are all in one room, but in the interim it sure is great to engage
with other nahuatlahtos in wrestling with these things.

Thanks again,

Ben

-- 
Ben Leeming
PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From jdanahuatl at gmail.com  Fri Jun 21 20:45:03 2013
From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 15:45:03 -0500
Subject: stuck on a phrase
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErVdB1O7En7Qj4mf4hH-1Us6OgCcmckyYHqoN3CRzRQzCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2013.154503.0500.JDANAHUATL@GMAIL.COM>

Hi,

I am not sure of the translation but part/whole relations are expressed
through -yo possession. Thus for example if a chip of metal flies off a
crowbar one might say o:ki:s i:teposyo. Or if a chair is missing its cloth
cover, xkipia (=a:mo kipia) i:tlake:nyo. This part/whole use does not
extend to body parts used metaphorically (e.g., kwawitl i:ma:  'the branch
of a tree').

I would assume that the most likely syntax would be a couplet with itleyo,
itlan being possessed by tlequiquiztli perhaps the latter referring to its
bullet. The agent of tlaihiyohuiltia but the verb as I know it makes 'to
cause to suffer' (tlahyowi:ltia). Te:mamauhtih would be translated as
'frightening'.

Jonathan


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello all, I'm stuck on a passage from a 16th cent. ecclesiastical Nahuatl
> text detailing the suffering of sinners in hell (my favorite subject).
>  Here's the wider context:
>
> "cenca yyac in tlequiquiztli: ytleyo ytlan quintlayhiyohuiltizque, huel
> cenca temamauhtin inic hiyac...
>
> My question is concerning the phrase "ytleyo ytlan."
>
> Another instance is "ytleyo in itlan quim?mamaya."
>
> Any ideas?  Thanks!
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
_______________________________________________
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Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 24 06:08:35 2013
From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 23:08:35 -0700
Subject: squash seeds as a groseria
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2013.230835.0700.TOMGRIGSBY@YAHOO.COM>

Listeros,
Has anyone else found ayohhuachtli(squash
seed) used to as a groser?a to refer to the vulva by N?huatl speakers? I have
found that term used by speakers in Morelos and Guerrero. 
Thanks,
Tom Grigsby
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From fa.moreira.r at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 17:20:31 2013
From: fa.moreira.r at gmail.com (Fernando Moreira)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 10:20:31 -0700
Subject: Ayohhuachtli, Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 1
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2013.102031.0700.FA.MOREIRA.R@GMAIL.COM>

Tom,

This is a very interesting euphemism. There are some interesting
correlations with other Mexican cultures relating the vulva or vagina to
squash and chayote. If you are not already aware In Popoluca Zoque the
ashes of the vagina of Chichiman (a sorceres) are sown by the hero to
produce calabash and chayote (Chevalier & Buckles 1995:288), I believe it
was first reported by Lopez Austin. According to Guiteras Holmes (1961),
Cabinala was taken to the woods to urinate, the first time she urinated
squash sprouted, the second time it was chayote. In Tzutujil there is a
story on how the first sun and first moon kill there grandmother in a
sweatbath, were she remains as a guisquil (chayote). According to Simeon
(taken from Chevalier, as I havent seen another reference) uterus used to
be called tepilquaxicalli, xicalli being a calabash in Pajapan "xigal" also
stands for vulva. It seems reasonable that squash seeds are also used in
this derogatory manner.

Cheers,

*Fernando A. Moreira, B.A.
*Cell: (403)970.1228
VoIP YYC: (587)887.6892
Skype: fa.moreira.r
E-mail : fa.moreira.r at gmail.com
E-mail : fmoreira at ucalgary.ca


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 10:00 AM, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:

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>    1. squash seeds as a groseria (grigsby tom)
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 23:08:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>
> To: "Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] squash seeds as a groseria
> Message-ID:
>         <1372054115.34320.YahooMailNeo at web120805.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Listeros,
> Has anyone else found ayohhuachtli(squash
> seed) used to as a groser?a to refer to the vulva by N?huatl speakers? I
> have
> found that term used by speakers in Morelos and Guerrero.
> Thanks,
> Tom Grigsby
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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>
>
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 1
> ***************************************
>
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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Mon Jun 24 18:06:24 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 13:06:24 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 301, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1371834002.24681.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2013.130624.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

i tlan = el diente de el o ella. i= pertenecia.tlan-tlantle= diente.
itlante/ itlanyo = su diente,

Gracias. 		 	   		  
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From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Mon Jun 24 20:29:08 2013
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (Baert Georges)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 22:29:08 +0200
Subject: Ayohhuachtli
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2013.222908.0200.LAHUNIK.62@SKYNET.BE>

Message 1, Nahuatl Digest, Vol.302, Issu1

Ayohhuachtli.

Groseria and vulva, are Spanish words for resp. impudence and female or male
genitals I presume.

I have find for instance ayohhuachtli in a list of fruits of Sah.8,68.

If you could see the female or male genitals as a fruit, where is than the
impudence or the "groseria"?

Lahun Ik 62

Baert Georges

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From tekuani at hotmail.es  Mon Jun 24 21:21:15 2013
From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 16:21:15 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1372093202.16025.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2013.162115.0500.TEKUANI@HOTMAIL.ES>

Hola para m?
no es groser?a Ayohuaxtli, para referirse a la vagina o vulva en tono  vulgar
o grosero utilizamos, kuilchil, inclusive hay un jitomate de la regi?n centro
del estado de Veracruz con una caracter?stica muy particular al que llaman
Kuilchiltomatl refiri?ndose al parecido con la vagina.

 

Gracias

 Atte.

Jacinto Acatecatl
N.
 		 	   		  
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From cuecuex at gmail.com  Wed Jun 26 02:45:12 2013
From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 02:45:12 +0000
Subject: squash seeds as a groseria
In-Reply-To: <1372054115.34320.YahooMailNeo@web120805.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2013.024512.0000.CUECUEX@GMAIL.COM>

Estimado Tom

No te puedo decir si en otra parte del pa?s se use el t?rmino nahuatl
ayohhuachtli

 Lo que si te puedo decir que a las semillas de calabaza que
comunmente  se le llama o se le conoce como pepitas o pepas y pueden
ser tambien de chilacayote,  y pepa o pepita es una de las mas comunes
formas de llamar en M?xico a a la vulva o la regi?n genital de las
mujeres, t?rminos todos usados frecuente y cotodianamente en el
espa?ol de  habla cotidiana del pueblo llano, de nosotros los modernos
macehuales, los que formamos parte del populacho, del peladaje, de los
nacos, de la juventud chaka estigmatizada por un estupido racismo
clasista

Otras formas para nombrar la vulva femenina tambi?n son vocablos que
tienen que ver con el comer.

 Por ejemplo se le llama tambi?n el queso, el  guayabo, la panocha, la papaya

Compartiendo contigo mi or?gen  humilde y mi lenguaje guarro

Roberto Romero Gutierrez





2013/6/24, grigsby tom <tom_grigsby at yahoo.com>:
> Listeros,
> Has anyone else found ayohhuachtli(squash
> seed) used to as a groser?a to refer to the vulva by N?huatl speakers? I
> have
> found that term used by speakers in Morelos and Guerrero.
> Thanks,
> Tom Grigsby
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
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From bleeming at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 02:10:05 2013
From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 22:10:05 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2013.221005.0400.BLEEMING@GMAIL.COM>

Any takers on these?

1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!

2.  The plural of malinalli?

3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...


Thanks!

Ben

-- 
Ben Leeming
PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Fri Jun 28 04:05:02 2013
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 23:05:02 -0500
Subject: RV:  scatter-shot questions
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2013.230502.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Muy apreciado Ben:

Apunto mi an?lisis de una glosa del C?dice de Huichapan donde aparece el nombre del se?or mexica que mencionas, con una transcripci?n, una versi?n fon?mica, un an?lisis morf?mico y finalmente una traducci?n. Cualquier cr?tica es bienvenida.

Glosa hui17r.02
Ilhuicaminatl ueuemotec?uma
|ilhuicam?natl hu?hueh mot?ucz?mah|
(|ilhuicatl| ? |tl|) + |m?na| + |tl| |hu?hueh| |mo| + (|t?uctli| ? |tli|) + |z?m?| (|?| > |a|) + |h|
sustantivo: ?cielo? ? verbo: tirar flecha ? sufijo absolutivo*  ? sustantivo: ?viejo/anciano? ? prefijo reflexivo ? sustantivo: ?se?or? ? verbo: ?hacer gesto de enojado? ? sufijo pret?rito ?Ilhuicaminatl Huehue Moteuczoma, ?el flechador del cielo, se?or enojado el viejo??.

* Aparentemente se trata de otorgar un car?cter nominal de la palabra ilhuicamina, que usualmente no lleva este sufijo.

Lo tom? de una versi?n revisada del segundo volumen de mi tesis doctoral "Los otom?es: cultura, lengua y escritura". Hace poco sub? la versi?n original, de 2005, a ResearchGate:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Wright-Carr/?ev=prf_highl

Saludos,

David

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Ben Leeming Enviado el: jueves, 27 de junio de 2013 09:10 p. m.
Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions

Any takers on these?

1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!

2.  The plural of malinalli?

3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...


Thanks!

Ben

--
Ben Leeming
PhD Student
Department of Anthropology
University at Albany, SUNY

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 28 10:40:17 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:40:17 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErWQG-aEZKKUrav=2VUf5zxj78hs17uiLJbfdw_wvz=TkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.064017.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:

> Any takers on these?
>
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!

Moteuczoma
>
> 2.  The plural of malinalli?

malinalli

>
> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...


Chimalma sounds good for your translation, Ben.

Michael

>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
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From a.appleyard at btinternet.com  Fri Jun 28 05:29:09 2013
From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (BT Yahoo!)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:29:09 +0100
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErWQG-aEZKKUrav=2VUf5zxj78hs17uiLJbfdw_wvz=TkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.062909.0100.A.APPLEYARD@BTINTERNET.COM>

________________________________
?Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:-
> Any takers on these?
> 1.? The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?? I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...? I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!

Mote_uczo_mah = Mo - te_uc - zo_mah = "himself-lord-frowned = "he has frowned in anger like a lord".
+
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From idiez at me.com  Fri Jun 28 12:36:41 2013
From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:36:41 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <CAN_9ErWQG-aEZKKUrav=2VUf5zxj78hs17uiLJbfdw_wvz=TkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.083641.0400.IDIEZ@ME.COM>

Piyali Ben,
	I would consider the preterite agentive of  "mani" or "mana". If it's "mani", chimalli is an adverb. if it's "mana", chimalli is the object.
John

On Jun 27, 2013, at 10:10 PM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:

> Any takers on these?
> 
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> 2.  The plural of malinalli?
> 
> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ben
> 
> -- 
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl

_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 28 12:37:41 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:37:41 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.083741.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:

> Any takers on these?
>
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!

Ben,

As you know, phonetically speaking, the name is [mote:kwso:ma]. 
[-te:kw-] 'lord' offers transcriptional challenges, but it has been 
written -teuc- as well as -tecuh-, which can really throw someone off 
in terms of how the name should be pronounced. The English spelling 
"Montezuma" deftly sidesteps the whole issue, losing of course a great 
deal of the original pronunciation.

[so:ma:lli] is 'anger'.

[(mo)so:ma] means to 'to make an angry face, to frown".

I've sometimes wondered if Montezuma was in fact as serious as his name. :-)

Michael


>> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 28 12:50:19 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:50:19 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <20130628064017.qgf1efwpw4wgk8sw@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.085019.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

> Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
>
>> >>
>> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
>> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
>
>
> Chimalma sounds good for your translation, Ben.
>
> Michael
>
>>




Ben, that note on Chimalma from me took place ten minutes after I woke 
up this morning. Disregard it. "Shield-hand" would be chimalmaitl. One 
could have to explain the loss of the absolutive suffix.

:-)

Michael
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> --
>> Ben Leeming
>> PhD Student
>> Department of Anthropology
>> University at Albany, SUNY
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 28 14:10:36 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 10:10:36 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <DC38FE5D-6BF9-4286-AFA0-E44D8EDB36C6@me.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.101036.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

It's a challenge balancing teaching right now with looking at more 
important things like Ben's questions. :-)

John's answer sparked something just now as I'm awaiting the arrival of 
students.

This could be that rare locative suffix -ma:n which means something 
like "over all the surface of". This would work nicely for 
"Chilmalman," and the dropping of the final -n would not be unexpected.

Michael

Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:

> Piyali Ben,
> 	I would consider the preterite agentive of  "mani" or "mana". If
> it's "mani", chimalli is an adverb. if it's "mana", chimalli is the
> object.
> John
>
> On Jun 27, 2013, at 10:10 PM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Any takers on these?
>>
>> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
>> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
>> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
>>
>> 2.  The plural of malinalli?
>>
>> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
>> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> --
>> Ben Leeming
>> PhD Student
>> Department of Anthropology
>> University at Albany, SUNY
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



_______________________________________________
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From lahunik.62 at skynet.be  Fri Jun 28 20:45:19 2013
From: lahunik.62 at skynet.be (Baert Georges)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 22:45:19 +0200
Subject: Moctezuma and Chimalmah
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.224519.0200.LAHUNIK.62@SKYNET.BE>

Nahuatl Digest, Vol.302, Issue 4, Message 1.

The correct English spelling of, Moteuczoma (with a long e and o) is not
Montezuma, but Moctezuma.

The whole tittle of Moteuczoma I is, Huehueh Moteuczoma Ilhuicamina
Chalchiuhtlatonac Tlahtoani Tenochtitlan (5th King of Mexico).

Moteuczoma II is the one who came on power in 1503, 11 Acatl.

Chimalmah, is the legendary Aztec heroine (Launey II, 206).

She is the 4th of the four teomamahqueh.

Chimalmatl is the 2nd wife of Iztac Mixcoatl, and mother of Quetzalcoatl
(SGA II, 1020)

Lahun Ik 62

Baert Georges

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From rbenavides05 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 28 18:07:10 2013
From: rbenavides05 at hotmail.com (Rafael Benavides)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 13:07:10 -0500
Subject: scatter-shot questions (Rafael Benavides)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1372438802.22754.nahuatl@lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.130710.0500.RBENAVIDES05@HOTMAIL.COM>

Hi Ben,
I'm just a fan of Nahuatl but not really a scholar, so forgive my lack of linguistic understanding and very basic description below. I remember wondering about this too when I was first studying Nahuatl in Mexico. However, the native speakers that we teaching us were most familiar with a different variant and I don't think the "kw" was preserved in their language to the extent in which it was pronounced in Tenochtitlan's Nahuatl at the time of the conquest.

I recently attended the Maya Meetings in Austin a few months ago and took part in the first-ever Nahuatl Hieroglyphs course there. Dr. Marc Zender, and some other great scholars whose names I can't remember right now, informed me that the sound is more like a short "cu" but better spelled "kw." They had studied both the classical and several modern variants of Nahuatl in Mexico. So, what I learned was that it is pronounced more like MotekwSOma, with that "cu" sound being pronounced slightly enough to be audible, but the penultimate syllable takes precedence and dominates the overall sound of the name. I imagine that this sound is hard to hear and repeat for Hispanophones, so the scribes in Mexico did their best but, obviously, the Latin alphabet has some weaknesses for accurately writing phonetic pronunciations of different languages.
I hope that helps your curiosity. It's the same one I had.
Good luck!
Rafael Benavides


> From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 4
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 12:00:02 -0500
> 
> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to
> 	nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> 
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> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. scatter-shot questions (Ben Leeming)
>    2. RV:  scatter-shot questions (David Wright)
>    3. Re: scatter-shot questions (Michael McCafferty)
>    4. Re: scatter-shot questions (BT Yahoo!)
>    5. Re: scatter-shot questions (John Sullivan)
>    6. Re: scatter-shot questions (Michael McCafferty)
>    7. Re: scatter-shot questions (Michael McCafferty)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 22:10:05 -0400
> From: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAN_9ErWQG-aEZKKUrav=2VUf5zxj78hs17uiLJbfdw_wvz=TkQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Any takers on these?
> 
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> 2.  The plural of malinalli?
> 
> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ben
> 
> -- 
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 23:05:02 -0500
> From: "David Wright" <dcwright at prodigy.net.mx>
> To: "Nahuat-l" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] RV:  scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <003601ce73b4$aa027b80$fe077280$@prodigy.net.mx>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Muy apreciado Ben:
> 
> Apunto mi an?lisis de una glosa del C?dice de Huichapan donde aparece el nombre del se?or mexica que mencionas, con una transcripci?n, una versi?n fon?mica, un an?lisis morf?mico y finalmente una traducci?n. Cualquier cr?tica es bienvenida.
> 
> Glosa hui17r.02
> Ilhuicaminatl ueuemotec?uma
> |ilhuicam?natl hu?hueh mot?ucz?mah|
> (|ilhuicatl| ? |tl|) + |m?na| + |tl| |hu?hueh| |mo| + (|t?uctli| ? |tli|) + |z?m?| (|?| > |a|) + |h|
> sustantivo: ?cielo? ? verbo: tirar flecha ? sufijo absolutivo*  ? sustantivo: ?viejo/anciano? ? prefijo reflexivo ? sustantivo: ?se?or? ? verbo: ?hacer gesto de enojado? ? sufijo pret?rito ?Ilhuicaminatl Huehue Moteuczoma, ?el flechador del cielo, se?or enojado el viejo??.
> 
> * Aparentemente se trata de otorgar un car?cter nominal de la palabra ilhuicamina, que usualmente no lleva este sufijo.
> 
> Lo tom? de una versi?n revisada del segundo volumen de mi tesis doctoral "Los otom?es: cultura, lengua y escritura". Hace poco sub? la versi?n original, de 2005, a ResearchGate:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Wright-Carr/?ev=prf_highl
> 
> Saludos,
> 
> David
> 
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Ben Leeming Enviado el: jueves, 27 de junio de 2013 09:10 p. m.
> Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Asunto: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> 
> Any takers on these?
> 
> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> 2.  The plural of malinalli?
> 
> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ben
> 
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:40:17 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <20130628064017.qgf1efwpw4wgk8sw at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=ISO-8859-1;	format="flowed"
> 
> Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
> 
> > Any takers on these?
> >
> > 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> Moteuczoma
> >
> > 2.  The plural of malinalli?
> 
> malinalli
> 
> >
> > 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> > Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> 
> 
> Chimalma sounds good for your translation, Ben.
> 
> Michael
> 
> >
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > --
> > Ben Leeming
> > PhD Student
> > Department of Anthropology
> > University at Albany, SUNY
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:29:09 +0100 (BST)
> From: BT Yahoo! <a.appleyard at btinternet.com>
> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID:
> 	<1372397349.57704.YahooMailNeo at web186102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:-
> > Any takers on these?
> > 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> Mote_uczo_mah = Mo - te_uc - zo_mah = "himself-lord-frowned = "he has frowned in anger like a lord".
> +
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:36:41 -0400
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <DC38FE5D-6BF9-4286-AFA0-E44D8EDB36C6 at me.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Piyali Ben,
> 	I would consider the preterite agentive of  "mani" or "mana". If it's "mani", chimalli is an adverb. if it's "mana", chimalli is the object.
> John
> 
> On Jun 27, 2013, at 10:10 PM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Any takers on these?
> > 
> > 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> > 
> > 2.  The plural of malinalli?
> > 
> > 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> > Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > Ben
> > 
> > -- 
> > Ben Leeming
> > PhD Student
> > Department of Anthropology
> > University at Albany, SUNY
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:37:41 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <20130628083741.nsdjybz1w84w40s0 at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=ISO-8859-1;	format="flowed"
> 
> Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
> 
> > Any takers on these?
> >
> > 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> 
> Ben,
> 
> As you know, phonetically speaking, the name is [mote:kwso:ma]. 
> [-te:kw-] 'lord' offers transcriptional challenges, but it has been 
> written -teuc- as well as -tecuh-, which can really throw someone off 
> in terms of how the name should be pronounced. The English spelling 
> "Montezuma" deftly sidesteps the whole issue, losing of course a great 
> deal of the original pronunciation.
> 
> [so:ma:lli] is 'anger'.
> 
> [(mo)so:ma] means to 'to make an angry face, to frown".
> 
> I've sometimes wondered if Montezuma was in fact as serious as his name. :-)
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> >> Ben Leeming
> > PhD Student
> > Department of Anthropology
> > University at Albany, SUNY
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:50:19 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>, nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <20130628085019.hz5wmdvh9cgsc8sk at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=ISO-8859-1;	format="flowed"
> 
> 
> 
> > Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
> >
> >> >>
> >> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> >> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> >
> >
> > Chimalma sounds good for your translation, Ben.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ben, that note on Chimalma from me took place ten minutes after I woke 
> up this morning. Disregard it. "Shield-hand" would be chimalmaitl. One 
> could have to explain the loss of the absolutive suffix.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Michael
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Ben
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ben Leeming
> >> PhD Student
> >> Department of Anthropology
> >> University at Albany, SUNY
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nahuatl mailing list
> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 4
> ***************************************
 		 	   		  
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Jun 28 22:39:39 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:39:39 -0400
Subject: scatter-shot questions
In-Reply-To: <20130628101036.z6o4apwgmckw0ckc@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.183939.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Quoting Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>:

> It's a challenge balancing teaching right now with looking at more
> important things like Ben's questions. :-)
>
> John's answer sparked something just now as I'm awaiting the arrival
> of students.
>
> This could be that rare locative suffix -ma:n which means something
> like "over all the surface of". This would work nicely for
> "Chilmalman," and the dropping of the final -n would not be
> unexpected.
>
> Michael
>

That should be "Chimalman".

Michael

> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
>
>> Piyali Ben,
>> 	I would consider the preterite agentive of  "mani" or "mana". If
>> it's "mani", chimalli is an adverb. if it's "mana", chimalli is the
>> object.
>> John
>>
>> On Jun 27, 2013, at 10:10 PM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Any takers on these?
>>>
>>> 1.  The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)?  I'm assuming it's
>>> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma...  I know there's a bazillion different
>>> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
>>>
>>> 2.  The plural of malinalli?
>>>
>>> 3.  The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
>>> Quetzalcoatl?  I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Ben
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ben Leeming
>>> PhD Student
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> University at Albany, SUNY
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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From b.leeming at rivers.org  Fri Jun 28 22:59:29 2013
From: b.leeming at rivers.org (Leeming, Ben)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:59:29 -0400
Subject: Moctezuma and Chimalmah
In-Reply-To: <000001ce7440$6769a9b0$363cfd10$@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.185929.0400.B.LEEMING@RIVERS.ORG>

Dear Baert, 

Can you explain how you justify the spelling "Moctezuma"?  In my mind there is only one correct spelling of the word: the Nahuatl spelling - rather than an English spelling, a Spanish spelling, etc.  From the point of view of Nahuatl morphology, I don't see how "Moctezuma" is feasible. 

As for your citation of "Chimalmatl", do you mean "Chimalmaitl"?  That would make sense. Can you tell me what SGA II, 1020 is?  I'd like to track this down. 

Thank you,

Ben

On Jun 28, 2013, at 4:54 PM, "Baert Georges" <lahunik.62 at skynet.be> wrote:

> Nahuatl Digest, Vol.302, Issue 4, Message 1.
> 
> The correct English spelling of, Moteuczoma (with a long e and o) is not
> Montezuma, but Moctezuma.
> 
> The whole tittle of Moteuczoma I is, Huehueh Moteuczoma Ilhuicamina
> Chalchiuhtlatonac Tlahtoani Tenochtitlan (5th King of Mexico).
> 
> Moteuczoma II is the one who came on power in 1503, 11 Acatl.
> 
> Chimalmah, is the legendary Aztec heroine (Launey II, 206).
> 
> She is the 4th of the four teomamahqueh.
> 
> Chimalmatl is the 2nd wife of Iztac Mixcoatl, and mother of Quetzalcoatl
> (SGA II, 1020)
> 
> Lahun Ik 62
> 
> Baert Georges
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sat Jun 29 02:28:01 2013
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 22:28:01 -0400
Subject: Moctezuma and Chimalmah
In-Reply-To: <B958DD07-487B-4926-9159-B2EB7E89A9EB@rivers.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2013.222801.0400.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

There are a number of spellings lying around in English writings, Ben, 
and Baert has pointed out one of them. A town on the Wabash River is 
named after the Aztec ruler, and is spelled Montezuma, which is one of 
the spellings you'll see elsewhere in English.

Also, should add that in the phonetic spelling [mote:kwso:ma], that 
[-kw-] is not [kw] as in "quick," but should be written with a small 
raised w. That Nahuatl phoneme is an unaspirated labiovelar stop and 
sounds something like the -qu- in "squid".

Michael

Quoting "Leeming, Ben" <b.leeming at rivers.org>:

> Dear Baert,
>
> Can you explain how you justify the spelling "Moctezuma"?  In my mind
> there is only one correct spelling of the word: the Nahuatl spelling
> - rather than an English spelling, a Spanish spelling, etc.  From the
> point of view of Nahuatl morphology, I don't see how "Moctezuma" is
> feasible.
>
> As for your citation of "Chimalmatl", do you mean "Chimalmaitl"?
> That would make sense. Can you tell me what SGA II, 1020 is?  I'd
> like to track this down.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ben
>
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 4:54 PM, "Baert Georges" <lahunik.62 at skynet.be> wrote:
>
>> Nahuatl Digest, Vol.302, Issue 4, Message 1.
>>
>> The correct English spelling of, Moteuczoma (with a long e and o) is not
>> Montezuma, but Moctezuma.
>>
>> The whole tittle of Moteuczoma I is, Huehueh Moteuczoma Ilhuicamina
>> Chalchiuhtlatonac Tlahtoani Tenochtitlan (5th King of Mexico).
>>
>> Moteuczoma II is the one who came on power in 1503, 11 Acatl.
>>
>> Chimalmah, is the legendary Aztec heroine (Launey II, 206).
>>
>> She is the 4th of the four teomamahqueh.
>>
>> Chimalmatl is the 2nd wife of Iztac Mixcoatl, and mother of Quetzalcoatl
>> (SGA II, 1020)
>>
>> Lahun Ik 62
>>
>> Baert Georges
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>



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