scatter-shot questions (Rafael Benavides)
Rafael Benavides
rbenavides05 at hotmail.com
Fri Jun 28 18:07:10 UTC 2013
Hi Ben,
I'm just a fan of Nahuatl but not really a scholar, so forgive my lack of linguistic understanding and very basic description below. I remember wondering about this too when I was first studying Nahuatl in Mexico. However, the native speakers that we teaching us were most familiar with a different variant and I don't think the "kw" was preserved in their language to the extent in which it was pronounced in Tenochtitlan's Nahuatl at the time of the conquest.
I recently attended the Maya Meetings in Austin a few months ago and took part in the first-ever Nahuatl Hieroglyphs course there. Dr. Marc Zender, and some other great scholars whose names I can't remember right now, informed me that the sound is more like a short "cu" but better spelled "kw." They had studied both the classical and several modern variants of Nahuatl in Mexico. So, what I learned was that it is pronounced more like MotekwSOma, with that "cu" sound being pronounced slightly enough to be audible, but the penultimate syllable takes precedence and dominates the overall sound of the name. I imagine that this sound is hard to hear and repeat for Hispanophones, so the scribes in Mexico did their best but, obviously, the Latin alphabet has some weaknesses for accurately writing phonetic pronunciations of different languages.
I hope that helps your curiosity. It's the same one I had.
Good luck!
Rafael Benavides
> From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 4
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 12:00:02 -0500
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. scatter-shot questions (Ben Leeming)
> 2. RV: scatter-shot questions (David Wright)
> 3. Re: scatter-shot questions (Michael McCafferty)
> 4. Re: scatter-shot questions (BT Yahoo!)
> 5. Re: scatter-shot questions (John Sullivan)
> 6. Re: scatter-shot questions (Michael McCafferty)
> 7. Re: scatter-shot questions (Michael McCafferty)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 22:10:05 -0400
> From: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID:
> <CAN_9ErWQG-aEZKKUrav=2VUf5zxj78hs17uiLJbfdw_wvz=TkQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Any takers on these?
>
> 1. The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)? I'm assuming it's
> Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma... I know there's a bazillion different
> spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
>
> 2. The plural of malinalli?
>
> 3. The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> Quetzalcoatl? I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 23:05:02 -0500
> From: "David Wright" <dcwright at prodigy.net.mx>
> To: "Nahuat-l" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] RV: scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <003601ce73b4$aa027b80$fe077280$@prodigy.net.mx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Muy apreciado Ben:
>
> Apunto mi análisis de una glosa del Códice de Huichapan donde aparece el nombre del señor mexica que mencionas, con una transcripción, una versión fonémica, un análisis morfémico y finalmente una traducción. Cualquier crítica es bienvenida.
>
> Glosa hui17r.02
> Ilhuicaminatl ueuemotecçuma
> |ilhuicam?natl hu?hueh mot?ucz?mah|
> (|ilhuicatl| ? |tl|) + |m?na| + |tl| |hu?hueh| |mo| + (|t?uctli| ? |tli|) + |z?m?| (|?| > |a|) + |h|
> sustantivo: ?cielo? ? verbo: tirar flecha ? sufijo absolutivo* ? sustantivo: ?viejo/anciano? ? prefijo reflexivo ? sustantivo: ?señor? ? verbo: ?hacer gesto de enojado? ? sufijo pretérito ?Ilhuicaminatl Huehue Moteuczoma, ?el flechador del cielo, señor enojado el viejo??.
>
> * Aparentemente se trata de otorgar un carácter nominal de la palabra ilhuicamina, que usualmente no lleva este sufijo.
>
> Lo tomé de una versión revisada del segundo volumen de mi tesis doctoral "Los otomíes: cultura, lengua y escritura". Hace poco subí la versión original, de 2005, a ResearchGate:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Wright-Carr/?ev=prf_highl
>
> Saludos,
>
> David
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Ben Leeming Enviado el: jueves, 27 de junio de 2013 09:10 p. m.
> Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Asunto: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
>
> Any takers on these?
>
> 1. The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)? I'm assuming it's Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma... I know there's a bazillion different spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
>
> 2. The plural of malinalli?
>
> 3. The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of Quetzalcoatl? I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ben
>
> --
> Ben Leeming
> PhD Student
> Department of Anthropology
> University at Albany, SUNY
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:40:17 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <20130628064017.qgf1efwpw4wgk8sw at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed"
>
> Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
>
> > Any takers on these?
> >
> > 1. The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)? I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma... I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
>
> Moteuczoma
> >
> > 2. The plural of malinalli?
>
> malinalli
>
> >
> > 3. The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> > Quetzalcoatl? I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
>
>
> Chimalma sounds good for your translation, Ben.
>
> Michael
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > --
> > Ben Leeming
> > PhD Student
> > Department of Anthropology
> > University at Albany, SUNY
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:29:09 +0100 (BST)
> From: BT Yahoo! <a.appleyard at btinternet.com>
> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID:
> <1372397349.57704.YahooMailNeo at web186102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:-
> > Any takers on these?
> > 1. The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)? I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma... I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
>
> Mote_uczo_mah = Mo - te_uc - zo_mah = "himself-lord-frowned = "he has frowned in anger like a lord".
> +
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:36:41 -0400
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <DC38FE5D-6BF9-4286-AFA0-E44D8EDB36C6 at me.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Piyali Ben,
> I would consider the preterite agentive of "mani" or "mana". If it's "mani", chimalli is an adverb. if it's "mana", chimalli is the object.
> John
>
> On Jun 27, 2013, at 10:10 PM, Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Any takers on these?
> >
> > 1. The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)? I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma... I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
> >
> > 2. The plural of malinalli?
> >
> > 3. The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> > Quetzalcoatl? I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> >
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > --
> > Ben Leeming
> > PhD Student
> > Department of Anthropology
> > University at Albany, SUNY
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:37:41 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <20130628083741.nsdjybz1w84w40s0 at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed"
>
> Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
>
> > Any takers on these?
> >
> > 1. The "correct" spelling of "Montezuma" (yuck!)? I'm assuming it's
> > Moteuczoma or Moteuhczoma... I know there's a bazillion different
> > spellings but I want to know what the nahuatlatos think!
>
> Ben,
>
> As you know, phonetically speaking, the name is [mote:kwso:ma].
> [-te:kw-] 'lord' offers transcriptional challenges, but it has been
> written -teuc- as well as -tecuh-, which can really throw someone off
> in terms of how the name should be pronounced. The English spelling
> "Montezuma" deftly sidesteps the whole issue, losing of course a great
> deal of the original pronunciation.
>
> [so:ma:lli] is 'anger'.
>
> [(mo)so:ma] means to 'to make an angry face, to frown".
>
> I've sometimes wondered if Montezuma was in fact as serious as his name. :-)
>
> Michael
>
>
> >> Ben Leeming
> > PhD Student
> > Department of Anthropology
> > University at Albany, SUNY
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 08:50:19 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>, nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] scatter-shot questions
> Message-ID: <20130628085019.hz5wmdvh9cgsc8sk at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed"
>
>
>
> > Quoting Ben Leeming <bleeming at gmail.com>:
> >
> >> >>
> >> 3. The meaning of Chimalma (also spelled Chimalman), the mother of
> >> Quetzalcoatl? I'm leaning towards "shield-hand"...
> >
> >
> > Chimalma sounds good for your translation, Ben.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >>
>
>
>
>
> Ben, that note on Chimalma from me took place ten minutes after I woke
> up this morning. Disregard it. "Shield-hand" would be chimalmaitl. One
> could have to explain the loss of the absolutive suffix.
>
> :-)
>
> Michael
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Ben
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ben Leeming
> >> PhD Student
> >> Department of Anthropology
> >> University at Albany, SUNY
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nahuatl mailing list
> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
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>
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 302, Issue 4
> ***************************************
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