From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Fri Mar 15 12:24:33 2013 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 05:24:33 -0700 Subject: name for a lime kiln Message-ID: Estimados listeros,   One of the largest of the now disused lime kilns in San Andres de la Cal is pronounced by the villagers as xiuh li tempa which they translate as “en la orilla de las yerbas.” I’ve tried pronouncing the site, xiuhuitl i tempa but nobody’s buying that form. Is the former possible?   Thanks, Tom  _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Sun Mar 17 18:52:49 2013 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:52:49 -0600 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: <1363350273.14388.YahooMailNeo@web120802.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Tom and friends Maybe they use the word xiuhti (nahuat) or xiuhtli (nahuatl) for "grass"; then it is easy to conclude that the “ti” (or “tli”) of the ending becomes “li” in a composition where one T not so far from another T: xiuhti itempan => xiuhtitempan => xiuhl-litempa’ => xiuhlitempa / xiuhtli itempan => xiuhtlitempan => xiuhl-litempa’ => xiuhlitempa . Basically, the t of the nahuat-speaking people is linguopalatal and not dental as in Spanish. Therefore it is easy to understand a change from t to l (in the case of the first t). Of course it also applies to “tl” if you pronounce “xiuhtli”. Ximoyecpia (take care) Tomas Amaya 2013/3/15 grigsby tom > Estimados listeros, > > One of the largest of the now disused lime kilns in San > Andres de la Cal is pronounced by the villagers as xiuh li tempa which they > translate as “en la orilla de las yerbas.” I’ve tried pronouncing the site, > xiuhuitl i tempa but nobody’s buying that form. Is the former possible? > > Thanks, > Tom > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Mar 17 20:40:00 2013 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:40:00 +0100 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, I think the word xihuitl is being shortened to xiuhtl (two final consonants are possible is some variants). Then, when this is joined in speech with the following word, itempan (devoiced final n), the final consonanant of xiuhtl, the "tl" forms a new syllable with the "i" of itempan. Now it gets tricky. The devoiced "uh" of xiuhtl weekens the following "tl" turning it into a devoiced "l". This kind of thing happens in my variant, Modern Huastecan, so I recognized it (if indeed this is what is happening). So anyway, you can probably write it "xiuhtl itempan", understanding that the phrase is pronounced as single phonetic unit. John On Mar 17, 2013, at 7:52 PM, Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino wrote: > Hi Tom and friends > Maybe they use the word xiuhti (nahuat) or xiuhtli (nahuatl) for "grass"; > then it is easy to conclude that the “ti” (or “tli”) of the ending becomes > “li” in a composition where one T not so far from another T: xiuhti > itempan => xiuhtitempan => xiuhl-litempa’ => xiuhlitempa / xiuhtli itempan > => xiuhtlitempan => xiuhl-litempa’ => xiuhlitempa . > > Basically, the t of the nahuat-speaking people is linguopalatal and not > dental as in Spanish. Therefore it is easy to understand a change from t to > l (in the case of the first t). Of course it also applies to “tl” if you > pronounce “xiuhtli”. > > > > Ximoyecpia (take care) > > > > Tomas Amaya > > > 2013/3/15 grigsby tom > >> Estimados listeros, >> >> One of the largest of the now disused lime kilns in San >> Andres de la Cal is pronounced by the villagers as xiuh li tempa which they >> translate as “en la orilla de las yerbas.” I’ve tried pronouncing the site, >> xiuhuitl i tempa but nobody’s buying that form. Is the former possible? >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 17 21:30:18 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:30:18 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" dialect, and needs to find that out. Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish translation he was given. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 17 21:23:35 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:23:35 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" dialect, and needs to find that out. Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiutli and huexiutli that would serve as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl because of those two consonants /h/ and /tl/ coming up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish translation he was given. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > I think the word xihuitl is being shortened to xiuhtl (two final > consonants are possible is some variants). Then, when this is joined > in speech with the following word, itempan (devoiced final n), the > final consonanant of xiuhtl, the "tl" forms a new syllable with the > "i" of itempan. Now it gets tricky. The devoiced "uh" of xiuhtl > weekens the following "tl" turning it into a devoiced "l". This kind > of thing happens in my variant, Modern Huastecan, so I recognized it > (if indeed this is what is happening). So anyway, you can probably > write it "xiuhtl itempan", understanding that the phrase is > pronounced as single phonetic unit. > John > > On Mar 17, 2013, at 7:52 PM, Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino > wrote: > >> Hi Tom and friends >> Maybe they use the word xiuhti (nahuat) or xiuhtli (nahuatl) for "grass"; >> then it is easy to conclude that the "ti" (or "tli") of the ending becomes >> "li" in a composition where one T not so far from another T: xiuhti >> itempan => xiuhtitempan => xiuhl-litempa' => xiuhlitempa / xiuhtli itempan >> => xiuhtlitempan => xiuhl-litempa' => xiuhlitempa . >> >> Basically, the t of the nahuat-speaking people is linguopalatal and not >> dental as in Spanish. Therefore it is easy to understand a change from t to >> l (in the case of the first t). Of course it also applies to "tl" if you >> pronounce "xiuhtli". >> >> >> >> Ximoyecpia (take care) >> >> >> >> Tomas Amaya >> >> >> 2013/3/15 grigsby tom >> >>> Estimados listeros, >>> >>> One of the largest of the now disused lime kilns in San >>> Andres de la Cal is pronounced by the villagers as xiuh li tempa which they >>> translate as "en la orilla de las yerbas." I've tried pronouncing the site, >>> xiuhuitl i tempa but nobody's buying that form. Is the former possible? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Tom >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Sun Mar 17 22:10:40 2013 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:10:40 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: <20130317172335.0ookhfbsw00gcg8c@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl > because of those two consonants /h/ and /tl/ coming up against each > other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) Not that it makes any difference in the big picture, but there is no glottal stop implied by the spelling xiuhtl. The uh would stand for [w]. Fran Karttunen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 17 22:33:11 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:33:11 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes. :-) Quoting Frances Karttunen : > > On Mar 17, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >> because of those two consonants /h/ and /tl/ coming up against each >> other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) > > > Not that it makes any difference in the big picture, but there is no > glottal stop implied by the spelling xiuhtl. The uh would stand for > [w]. > > Fran Karttunen > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 17 22:34:56 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:34:56 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Frances Karttunen : > > On Mar 17, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >> because of those two consonants /h/ and /tl/ coming up against each >> other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) > > > Not that it makes any difference in the big picture, but there is no > glottal stop implied by the spelling xiuhtl. The uh would stand for > [w]. > > Fran Karttunen > > I was *really* writing too fast. :-) The two consonants /w/ and /tl/ still do not work well together and a *xiuhtl is still an unexpected reanalysis. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Mon Mar 18 01:10:42 2013 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:10:42 -0700 Subject: lime kiln Message-ID: Estimados listeros, Thanks for the input regarding my lime kiln. To clarify matters, the term under examination comes from San Andres de la Cal which is located in the Tepoztlan municipio and is about 3 km. from Santa Catarina. Thanks again, Tom _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Mar 18 19:34:40 2013 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:34:40 +0100 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: <20130317173018.qb32i2bio0ws00gs@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Modern Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has "nemiliztl", tlacualiztl, etc., with the accent on the penultimate syllable. John On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: > > > As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" dialect, and needs to find that out. > > Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. > > (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) > > If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish translation he was given. > > Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 18 20:43:00 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:43:00 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good. But this exception is not expected for Nahuatl. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Modern Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has "nemiliztl", tlacualiztl, etc., with > the accent on the penultimate syllable. > John > > On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: > >> Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: >> >> >> As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" >> dialect, and needs to find that out. >> >> Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem >> impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or >> /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that >> end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve >> as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. >> >> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >> because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming >> up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in >> *xiuhtli.) >> >> If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially >> 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish >> translation he was given. >> >> Michael >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 18 20:44:07 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:44:07 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I wonder there is in fact a devoiced /i/ that is hard to hear.. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Modern Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has "nemiliztl", tlacualiztl, etc., with > the accent on the penultimate syllable. > John > > On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: > >> Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: >> >> >> As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" >> dialect, and needs to find that out. >> >> Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem >> impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or >> /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that >> end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve >> as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. >> >> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >> because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming >> up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in >> *xiuhtli.) >> >> If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially >> 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish >> translation he was given. >> >> Michael >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Mar 19 04:12:25 2013 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 00:12:25 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln Message-ID: Michael, John, and all, I have spent a good deal of time (not recently) with a good friend who speaks Tlaxcallan Nahuatl. We focused on the leftward stress movement at one point and discussed words such at "tlacualiztl" and "tzotzomahtl". My phonetic memory is that there were no final voiceless [i]'s, even ones that were hard to hear |8-) ... Another argument for the lack of a final voiceless vowel segment in these words is that the stress moves one syllable to the left and the integrity of the penultimate stress pattern is maintained by the *dropping* of the final vowel. The maintenance of a final voiceless vowel would create an irregular stress pattern. BUT the strongest evidence for the lack of final voiceless vowels is that they are not there -- not audible. I have a collection of recordings from various dialects of Spanish that contain a number of examples of voiceless vowels -- recordings which have been played hundreds of times and perceived by hundreds of phonetics students. A voiceless vowel is a segment that is perceivably high or low, front or back, rounded or unrounded, etc. -- in other words, it has all the characteristics of the corresponding voiced vowel except voicing. Joe Quoting Michael McCafferty : > John, > > I wonder there is in fact a devoiced /i/ that is hard to hear.. > > Michael > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > >> Modern Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has "nemiliztl", tlacualiztl, etc., with >> the accent on the penultimate syllable. >> John >> >> On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Michael McCafferty >> wrote: >> >>> Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: >>> >>> >>> As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" >>> dialect, and needs to find that out. >>> >>> Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem >>> impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or >>> /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that >>> end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve >>> as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. >>> >>> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >>> because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming >>> up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in >>> *xiuhtli.) >>> >>> If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially >>> 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish >>> translation he was given. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Mar 19 07:54:23 2013 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:54:23 +0100 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: <20130319001225.1fmnbpblfcw04s8o@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, Another element in Tlaxcallan Nahuatl's leftward stress movement is the absolutive forms of nouns traditionally ending in -li. So we have tlaxcal, "tortilla", tlecol, "charcoal", tlaol, "corn kernels", tamal, "tamal", etc. with the accent on the penultimate syllable. I have a question. Is the process of final vowel degredation as seen in -ca/que/qui/c/Ø, -tla/tle/tli/tl/Ø, -hua/hue/hui/uh/Ø the result of leftward stress movement, or is it the other way around? John On Mar 19, 2013, at 5:12 AM, "Campbell, R. Joe" wrote: > Michael, John, and all, > > I have spent a good deal of time (not recently) with a good friend who speaks Tlaxcallan Nahuatl. We focused on the leftward stress movement at one point and discussed words such at "tlacualiztl" and "tzotzomahtl". My phonetic memory is that there were no final voiceless [i]'s, even ones that were hard to hear |8-) ... > > Another argument for the lack of a final voiceless vowel segment in these words is that the stress moves one syllable to the left and the integrity of the penultimate stress pattern is maintained by the *dropping* of the final vowel. The maintenance of a final voiceless vowel would create an irregular stress pattern. > > BUT the strongest evidence for the lack of final voiceless vowels is that they are not there -- not audible. I have a collection of recordings from various dialects of Spanish that contain a number of examples of voiceless vowels -- recordings which have been played hundreds of times and perceived by hundreds of phonetics students. A voiceless vowel is a segment that is perceivably high or low, front or back, rounded or unrounded, etc. -- in other words, it has all the characteristics of the corresponding voiced vowel except voicing. > > Joe > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> John, >> >> I wonder there is in fact a devoiced /i/ that is hard to hear.. >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting John Sullivan : >> >>> Modern Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has "nemiliztl", tlacualiztl, etc., with >>> the accent on the penultimate syllable. >>> John >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Michael McCafferty >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: >>>> >>>> >>>> As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" >>>> dialect, and needs to find that out. >>>> >>>> Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem >>>> impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or >>>> /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that >>>> end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve >>>> as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. >>>> >>>> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >>>> because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming >>>> up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in >>>> *xiuhtli.) >>>> >>>> If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially >>>> 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish >>>> translation he was given. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Mar 21 21:00:11 2013 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:00:11 -0400 Subject: Help with the Florentine Codex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I have another problem. No, it's not that I'm getting bad gas mileage in my car -- and my dogs aren't sick. It's a word or maybe a phrase of Nahuatl in the Florentine Codex. Book 2, page 59 (twenty-second chapter) of the Dibble and Anderson edition: ... yn aic omaltique, qujnmuchiquacmaltia, mamoujia: D&A's English translation: they washed the heads of all; they soaped themselves. My problem is that for the "-maltia" portion to be logical, the 'm' needs to represent a reflexive object prefix "m(o)-". When you look at the corresponding section of the facsimile of the Florentine, there is a very small blank space before "-maltia", but that is not crucial to the problem. It simply seems that from the morphological point of view, "maltia" must be a separate word. That leaves: qujnmuchiquac = quinmochicuac. Molina gives "quin icuac" ('quin ihcuac') as 'entonces'. If 'moch' can be interpolated in this phrase, the problem is solved. quin moch ihcuac maltia = then everyone bathes What do y'all think? I would appreciate some help. Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Fri Mar 22 08:01:32 2013 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 02:01:32 -0600 Subject: Help with the Florentine Codex In-Reply-To: <20130321170011.4kjd75wpgk488so8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Ahmo ximotequipacho Joeltziné I would write the text this way: “(yn yehuantin yn) aic omaltíqueh, quin nochih ihcuac momaltíah, mo(a)mohuíah” In Spanish: en cuanto a los que nunca se han bañado, es entonces cuando se bañan y lavan la cabeza (con amolli). In English: as for the ones who never have bathed, it was at this moment when they bath and wash their head themselves (by applying amolli thereon). I think it is the real meaning of the text. We understand it so (at home we use to talk in nahuat (Cuetzalan)). Another example, (also a joke): Yn yehuat yn Joeltzin motequipachohua, patioh in gazolina, ahuel quicui in itepoz. Axcan ihtacahuic yn itepoz. Ahoc molinia. Quin yehuat yn temachtihqui Joel moquetza, mocuahuahuana, ihcuac in moilhuía: aocmo nitepozcuiz. Ninehnemiz, nochipa ninehnemiz. Huan pehua nehnemi, yn iitzcuin yn mococohuaya, pahtoc-ya paccayauh ihuan. Mr. Joel is worry because the gasoline is very expensive. He cannot use his car. Now his car is broken. It does not work any more. At this moment the teacher Joel stands up, scratches his head, then says to himself: I won’t use a car any more. I will walk. And he begins to walk; his dog, who was sick, already healthy go with him very happy. Niamechyoltapalohua Tomas Amaya 2013/3/21 Campbell, R. Joe > Nocnihuan, > > I have another problem. No, it's not that I'm getting bad gas mileage in > my car -- and my dogs aren't sick. It's a word or maybe a phrase of > Nahuatl > in the Florentine Codex. > > Book 2, page 59 (twenty-second chapter) of the Dibble and Anderson > edition: > > ... yn aic omaltique, qujnmuchiquacmaltia, mamoujia: > D&A's English translation: they washed the heads of all; they soaped > themselves. > > My problem is that for the "-maltia" portion to be logical, the 'm' needs > to > represent a reflexive object prefix "m(o)-". When you look at the > corresponding section of the facsimile of the Florentine, there is a very > small blank space before "-maltia", but that is not crucial to the problem. > It simply seems that from the morphological point of view, "maltia" must > be a > separate word. > > That leaves: qujnmuchiquac = quinmochicuac. Molina gives "quin icuac" > ('quin ihcuac') as 'entonces'. If 'moch' can be interpolated in this > phrase, the problem is solved. > > quin moch ihcuac maltia = then everyone bathes > > What do y'all think? > > I would appreciate some help. > > Joe > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Sat Mar 23 02:45:23 2013 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:45:23 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 286, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gracias Michael Swanton Message-ID: Chìa significa esperar, cuando se conjugan "se utiliza "de la siguiente manera: Neh nik chìa--------- ----yo esperoteh tik chìa---------------tu esperasyeh ki chìa---------------el esperatehhuan tik chìa---------nosotros espramosimehhuan in ki chìa-----ud. esperan yehhuan ki chìa---------Ellos esparan La otra variante: chiya significa lo mismo. Neh nik chiya------- yo espero.... Gracias espero haya sido de ayuda. > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 12:00:02 -0600 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. CHIA and CHIYA (Susana Moraleda) > 2. Re: CHIA and CHIYA (Michael McCafferty) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:19:06 +0100 > From: Susana Moraleda > To: nahuatl discussion list > Subject: [Nahuat-l] CHIA and CHIYA > Message-ID: <5113C5EA.7030308 at losrancheros.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Piyali listeros, > Por favor alguien podria hablarme del fenomeno de la "desaparicion de la > Y" en palabras como CHIA en vez de CHIYA, PIA en vez de PIYA, etc.? > Los diccionarios de Molina y de Simeon ignoran la Y, igual que Sullivan > en su gramatica, mientras que en el diccionario de Karttunen y en el > curso de Campbell aparece la Y. > > Como llegò a desaparecer esta Y? > > Gracias > Susana > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:42:13 -0500 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] CHIA and CHIYA > Message-ID: <20130207114213.5suzqfib0ogs8ogo at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Hi, Susana, > > There is always a wiser voice than mine to chime in, but from where I > stand the /y/ *is* there "chia". What we have is an orthographic > problem rather than a phonological one. This happened across the board > when European languages with their orthographical and phonological > mindsets encountered the "exotic" languages of the Americas. In your > cases, orthographic "chia" is in fact [chiya], and orthographic "pia" > is [piya]. > > I came across an interesting example of how Europeans spelled Native > words in "unusual" ways just the other day with an Illinois language > exclamation. The Jesuit missionary wrote it "ii8e". > > The letter 8 can represent a number of things, mostly /w/, /oo/, but > even /o(o)w/ and /wa/. > > So, what does ii8e represent? We're not sure of vowel length, but it > was something either /iiyoowe/ or /iyoowe/. ;-) > > Michael > > > > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > > > Piyali listeros, > > Por favor alguien podria hablarme del fenomeno de la "desaparicion de > > la Y" en palabras como CHIA en vez de CHIYA, PIA en vez de PIYA, etc.? > > Los diccionarios de Molina y de Simeon ignoran la Y, igual que > > Sullivan en su gramatica, mientras que en el diccionario de Karttunen > > y en el curso de Campbell aparece la Y. > > > > Como llegò a desaparecer esta Y? > > > > Gracias > > Susana > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Mon Mar 25 13:42:57 2013 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 14:42:57 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gracias Jacinto, pero yo lo que queria era una explicacion academica de la desaparicion de la Y en verbos como CHIYA y PIYA, entre otros (la conjugacion de los verbos es algo que estudié hace como 30 anos!!!!! ja ja -- pero gracias de todos modos). Mi pregunta especifica ya se me aclarò y estoy satisfecha. Es este un forum maravilloso en el que participo desde hace mas de 10 anos, y no me saldré nunca pues es como una ancla de salvacion en los muchisimos momentos de dudas. Y que quienes mas saben de nuestro idioma sean personas no-mexicanas, me da, a mi tambien, mucho orgullo y satisfaccion, pero al mismo tiempo congoja al ver que muchos paisanos nuestros menosprecian nuestras lenguas autoctonas. Por lo que toca al Nahuatl moderno y sus variantes regionales, no quiero, ni puedo, por ahora, adentrarme. Susana On 23 March 2013 03:54, Jacinto Acatecatl wrote: > > Chìa significa esperar, cuando se conjugan "se utiliza "de la siguiente > manera: > Neh nik chìa--------- ----yo esperoteh tik chìa---------------tu > esperasyeh ki chìa---------------el esperatehhuan tik > chìa---------nosotros espramosimehhuan in ki chìa-----ud. esperan yehhuan > ki chìa---------Ellos esparan > > La otra variante: chiya significa lo mismo. > Neh nik chiya------- yo espero.... > Gracias espero haya sido de ayuda. > > > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 12:00:02 -0600 > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. CHIA and CHIYA (Susana Moraleda) > > 2. Re: CHIA and CHIYA (Michael McCafferty) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:19:06 +0100 > > From: Susana Moraleda > > To: nahuatl discussion list > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] CHIA and CHIYA > > Message-ID: <5113C5EA.7030308 at losrancheros.org> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > Piyali listeros, > > Por favor alguien podria hablarme del fenomeno de la "desaparicion de la > > Y" en palabras como CHIA en vez de CHIYA, PIA en vez de PIYA, etc.? > > Los diccionarios de Molina y de Simeon ignoran la Y, igual que Sullivan > > en su gramatica, mientras que en el diccionario de Karttunen y en el > > curso de Campbell aparece la Y. > > > > Como llegò a desaparecer esta Y? > > > > Gracias > > Susana > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:42:13 -0500 > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] CHIA and CHIYA > > Message-ID: <20130207114213.5suzqfib0ogs8ogo at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > Hi, Susana, > > > > There is always a wiser voice than mine to chime in, but from where I > > stand the /y/ *is* there "chia". What we have is an orthographic > > problem rather than a phonological one. This happened across the board > > when European languages with their orthographical and phonological > > mindsets encountered the "exotic" languages of the Americas. In your > > cases, orthographic "chia" is in fact [chiya], and orthographic "pia" > > is [piya]. > > > > I came across an interesting example of how Europeans spelled Native > > words in "unusual" ways just the other day with an Illinois language > > exclamation. The Jesuit missionary wrote it "ii8e". > > > > The letter 8 can represent a number of things, mostly /w/, /oo/, but > > even /o(o)w/ and /wa/. > > > > So, what does ii8e represent? We're not sure of vowel length, but it > > was something either /iiyoowe/ or /iyoowe/. ;-) > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > > > > > Piyali listeros, > > > Por favor alguien podria hablarme del fenomeno de la "desaparicion de > > > la Y" en palabras como CHIA en vez de CHIYA, PIA en vez de PIYA, etc.? > > > Los diccionarios de Molina y de Simeon ignoran la Y, igual que > > > Sullivan en su gramatica, mientras que en el diccionario de Karttunen > > > y en el curso de Campbell aparece la Y. > > > > > > Como llegò a desaparecer esta Y? > > > > > > Gracias > > > Susana > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 > > *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Tue Mar 26 15:12:42 2013 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 08:12:42 -0700 Subject: On the birth name of Do=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1a_?=Marina Message-ID: I just ran into something that revived a question I had years ago. In many places it is asserted that the slave who became an interpreter, Doña Marina, was named "Malinalli." by her parents because she "born on that day." In so far as I have seen, she would have had a number prefix to the name if that were so… Eyi-Mallinalli, frex. I've always considered that to be a backward false etymology. Marina would have been pronounced (by her and all nahuatl speakers), Malina. This being a word without meaning, they would have naturally used the word closest in sound to it. Recently I have found a new name attributed to her. Apparently this happened as far back as 1998, where it was claimed her nickname (or use name) was Tenepal. I've found "Cypess, Sandra Messinger. La Malinche in Mexican Literature: From History to Myth Austin: U. of Texas Press, 1991." cited as the origin of this name. But I don't have access to a research library myself to go hunting down references and finding out if it was mentioned earlier. And the discussion calls this nickname, supposedly given to her by the father who died when she was a child before she was sold to slavery (I'm having trouble getting my head around these things) "Tenepal" meaning "one who speaks with liveliness." I look at that and dig through my dictionaries and scratch my head. Teneh (Karttunen) something sharp, a cutting edge. suffix -pal "for the sake of," Molina, the closest he gets is "Tenepantla" en medio de otros But I go back to the "citation" on the wiki page and think… and Americans would mean "sassy" with that. But in the Nahuatl culture of the conquest, sassy would have been a very bad thing. It would not have been tolerated in a girl child. And Sahagún's compilation of the appropriate treatment of children and their discipline does not suggest a "lively" child would meet with approval and a nickname celebrating this fact. Does anybody know where the new name suggested came from? And how likely it might be? Thank you for your help _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Tue Mar 26 15:46:09 2013 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 11:46:09 -0400 Subject: On the birth name of Do=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1a_?=Marina In-Reply-To: <5BBA5009-F584-4FB2-B628-DE01C0AE0CD6@ipinc.net> Message-ID: The "Tenepal" originated with the Nahua historian Chimalpahin. Please see my essay "Rethinking Malinche" in Indian Women of Early Mexico, edited by Schroeder, Wood, and Haskett, University of Oklahoma Press 1997. In particular, see p. 302 and 311-12. This essay is available as a podcast through nuestrafamiliaunida.com/ podcast/mujer.html It should also be available in two parts at: www.podcast-directory.co.uk/.../rethinking-malinche-part-01-by-dr- frances- karttunen-ph-d-nfu-josephpuentes-com-3325343.html ip.podcast-directory.co.uk/.../rethinking-malinche-part-02-by-dr- frances- karttunen-ph-d-nfu-josephpuentes-com-3325344.html Fran Karttunen On Mar 26, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Kier Salmon wrote: > I just ran into something that revived a question I had years ago. > > In many places it is asserted that the slave who became an > interpreter, Doña Marina, was named "Malinalli." by her parents > because she "born on that day." > > In so far as I have seen, she would have had a number prefix to the > name if that were so… Eyi-Mallinalli, frex. > I've always considered that to be a backward false etymology. > Marina would have been pronounced (by her and all nahuatl > speakers), Malina. This being a word without meaning, they would > have naturally used the word closest in sound to it. > > Recently I have found a new name attributed to her. Apparently > this happened as far back as 1998, where it was claimed her > nickname (or use name) was Tenepal. I've found "Cypess, Sandra > Messinger. La Malinche in Mexican Literature: From History to Myth > Austin: U. of Texas Press, 1991." cited as the origin of this > name. But I don't have access to a research library myself to go > hunting down references and finding out if it was mentioned earlier. > > And the discussion calls this nickname, supposedly given to her by > the father who died when she was a child before she was sold to > slavery (I'm having trouble getting my head around these things) > "Tenepal" meaning "one who speaks with liveliness." > > I look at that and dig through my dictionaries and scratch my > head. Teneh (Karttunen) something sharp, a cutting edge. suffix - > pal "for the sake of," > Molina, the closest he gets is "Tenepantla" en medio de otros > > But I go back to the "citation" on the wiki page and think… and > Americans would mean "sassy" with that. But in the Nahuatl culture > of the conquest, sassy would have been a very bad thing. It would > not have been tolerated in a girl child. And Sahagún's compilation > of the appropriate treatment of children and their discipline does > not suggest a "lively" child would meet with approval and a > nickname celebrating this fact. > > Does anybody know where the new name suggested came from? And how > likely it might be? > Thank you for your help > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Mar 27 03:07:44 2013 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 23:07:44 -0400 Subject: Help with the Florentine Codex Message-ID: Quoting "Campbell, R. Joe" : > Tlazohcamati Tomastzine!! > > Agradezco tu comentario. Se me hacia logica la frase separando la > palabra "qujnmuchiquacmaltia" en texto de Dibble y Anderson en cuatro > partes, pero no queria cambiar esta version del texto sin consultar a > mis companyeros. Nunca he visitado Cuetzalan. Tengo ganas de ir... a ver si voy en el verano... no mas que se quita la nieve y hago los preparativos... |8-) Saludos, Joe > > > Quoting Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino : > >> Ahmo ximotequipacho Joeltziné >> >> >> >> I would write the text this way: >> >> >> >> "(yn yehuantin yn) aic omaltíqueh, quin nochih ihcuac momaltíah, >> mo(a)mohuíah" >> >> >> >> In Spanish: en cuanto a los que nunca se han bañado, es entonces cuando se >> bañan y lavan la cabeza (con amolli). >> >> In English: as for the ones who never have bathed, it was at this moment >> when they bath and wash their head themselves (by applying amolli >> thereon). >> >> I think it is the real meaning of the text. We understand it so (at home we >> use to talk in nahuat (Cuetzalan)). >> >> Another example, (also a joke): >> >> Yn yehuat yn Joeltzin motequipachohua, patioh in gazolina, ahuel quicui in >> itepoz. Axcan ihtacahuic yn itepoz. Ahoc molinia. >> >> Quin yehuat yn temachtihqui Joel moquetza, mocuahuahuana, ihcuac in >> moilhuía: aocmo nitepozcuiz. Ninehnemiz, nochipa ninehnemiz. Huan pehua >> nehnemi, yn iitzcuin yn mococohuaya, pahtoc-ya paccayauh ihuan. >> >> Mr. Joel is worry because the gasoline is very expensive. He cannot use his >> car. Now his car is broken. It does not work any more. At this moment the >> teacher Joel stands up, scratches his head, then says to himself: I won't >> use a car any more. I will walk. And he begins to walk; his dog, who was >> sick, already healthy go with him very happy. >> >> >> >> Niamechyoltapalohua >> >> >> >> Tomas Amaya >> >> >> >> >> 2013/3/21 Campbell, R. Joe >> >>> Nocnihuan, >>> >>> I have another problem. No, it's not that I'm getting bad gas mileage in >>> my car -- and my dogs aren't sick. It's a word or maybe a phrase of >>> Nahuatl >>> in the Florentine Codex. >>> >>> Book 2, page 59 (twenty-second chapter) of the Dibble and Anderson >>> edition: >>> >>> ... yn aic omaltique, qujnmuchiquacmaltia, mamoujia: >>> D&A's English translation: they washed the heads of all; they soaped >>> themselves. >>> >>> My problem is that for the "-maltia" portion to be logical, the 'm' needs >>> to >>> represent a reflexive object prefix "m(o)-". When you look at the >>> corresponding section of the facsimile of the Florentine, there is a very >>> small blank space before "-maltia", but that is not crucial to the problem. >>> It simply seems that from the morphological point of view, "maltia" must >>> be a >>> separate word. >>> >>> That leaves: qujnmuchiquac = quinmochicuac. Molina gives "quin icuac" >>> ('quin ihcuac') as 'entonces'. If 'moch' can be interpolated in this >>> phrase, the problem is solved. >>> >>> quin moch ihcuac maltia = then everyone bathes >>> >>> What do y'all think? >>> >>> I would appreciate some help. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Thu Mar 28 08:34:23 2013 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 09:34:23 +0100 Subject: 5 and 10 Message-ID: Niltze, I was wondering about the intrinsic meaning of MACUILLI and MATLACTLI. I've read many different explanations, and apparently/obviously there is MA- implying "hand", but then, talking to myself... -CUILLI - could this come from CUILIA (take something for oneself)? and -TLACTLI - torso? This tentative interpretation takes me to imagine a hand turned towards oneself and wanting to mean 5, versus both hands turned out (showing the torsos to oneself) and wanting to mean 10? Could this have been some kind of a "sign language" used by ancient Nahuatl speakers, similar to our own modern way of counting using our hands? Most certainly I am completely off road, but, would anyone care to share with me their own findings? Tlazohcamati huei miac Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Fri Mar 15 12:24:33 2013 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 05:24:33 -0700 Subject: name for a lime kiln Message-ID: Estimados listeros, ? One of the largest of the now disused lime kilns in San Andres de la Cal is pronounced by the villagers as xiuh li tempa which they translate as ?en la orilla de las yerbas.? I?ve tried pronouncing the site, xiuhuitl i tempa but nobody?s buying that form. Is the former possible? ? Thanks, Tom? _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Sun Mar 17 18:52:49 2013 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:52:49 -0600 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: <1363350273.14388.YahooMailNeo@web120802.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Tom and friends Maybe they use the word xiuhti (nahuat) or xiuhtli (nahuatl) for "grass"; then it is easy to conclude that the ?ti? (or ?tli?) of the ending becomes ?li? in a composition where one T not so far from another T: xiuhti itempan => xiuhtitempan => xiuhl-litempa? => xiuhlitempa / xiuhtli itempan => xiuhtlitempan => xiuhl-litempa? => xiuhlitempa . Basically, the t of the nahuat-speaking people is linguopalatal and not dental as in Spanish. Therefore it is easy to understand a change from t to l (in the case of the first t). Of course it also applies to ?tl? if you pronounce ?xiuhtli?. Ximoyecpia (take care) Tomas Amaya 2013/3/15 grigsby tom > Estimados listeros, > > One of the largest of the now disused lime kilns in San > Andres de la Cal is pronounced by the villagers as xiuh li tempa which they > translate as ?en la orilla de las yerbas.? I?ve tried pronouncing the site, > xiuhuitl i tempa but nobody?s buying that form. Is the former possible? > > Thanks, > Tom > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Mar 17 20:40:00 2013 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:40:00 +0100 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, I think the word xihuitl is being shortened to xiuhtl (two final consonants are possible is some variants). Then, when this is joined in speech with the following word, itempan (devoiced final n), the final consonanant of xiuhtl, the "tl" forms a new syllable with the "i" of itempan. Now it gets tricky. The devoiced "uh" of xiuhtl weekens the following "tl" turning it into a devoiced "l". This kind of thing happens in my variant, Modern Huastecan, so I recognized it (if indeed this is what is happening). So anyway, you can probably write it "xiuhtl itempan", understanding that the phrase is pronounced as single phonetic unit. John On Mar 17, 2013, at 7:52 PM, Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino wrote: > Hi Tom and friends > Maybe they use the word xiuhti (nahuat) or xiuhtli (nahuatl) for "grass"; > then it is easy to conclude that the ?ti? (or ?tli?) of the ending becomes > ?li? in a composition where one T not so far from another T: xiuhti > itempan => xiuhtitempan => xiuhl-litempa? => xiuhlitempa / xiuhtli itempan > => xiuhtlitempan => xiuhl-litempa? => xiuhlitempa . > > Basically, the t of the nahuat-speaking people is linguopalatal and not > dental as in Spanish. Therefore it is easy to understand a change from t to > l (in the case of the first t). Of course it also applies to ?tl? if you > pronounce ?xiuhtli?. > > > > Ximoyecpia (take care) > > > > Tomas Amaya > > > 2013/3/15 grigsby tom > >> Estimados listeros, >> >> One of the largest of the now disused lime kilns in San >> Andres de la Cal is pronounced by the villagers as xiuh li tempa which they >> translate as ?en la orilla de las yerbas.? I?ve tried pronouncing the site, >> xiuhuitl i tempa but nobody?s buying that form. Is the former possible? >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 17 21:30:18 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:30:18 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" dialect, and needs to find that out. Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish translation he was given. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 17 21:23:35 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:23:35 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" dialect, and needs to find that out. Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiutli and huexiutli that would serve as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl because of those two consonants /h/ and /tl/ coming up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish translation he was given. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > I think the word xihuitl is being shortened to xiuhtl (two final > consonants are possible is some variants). Then, when this is joined > in speech with the following word, itempan (devoiced final n), the > final consonanant of xiuhtl, the "tl" forms a new syllable with the > "i" of itempan. Now it gets tricky. The devoiced "uh" of xiuhtl > weekens the following "tl" turning it into a devoiced "l". This kind > of thing happens in my variant, Modern Huastecan, so I recognized it > (if indeed this is what is happening). So anyway, you can probably > write it "xiuhtl itempan", understanding that the phrase is > pronounced as single phonetic unit. > John > > On Mar 17, 2013, at 7:52 PM, Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino > wrote: > >> Hi Tom and friends >> Maybe they use the word xiuhti (nahuat) or xiuhtli (nahuatl) for "grass"; >> then it is easy to conclude that the "ti" (or "tli") of the ending becomes >> "li" in a composition where one T not so far from another T: xiuhti >> itempan => xiuhtitempan => xiuhl-litempa' => xiuhlitempa / xiuhtli itempan >> => xiuhtlitempan => xiuhl-litempa' => xiuhlitempa . >> >> Basically, the t of the nahuat-speaking people is linguopalatal and not >> dental as in Spanish. Therefore it is easy to understand a change from t to >> l (in the case of the first t). Of course it also applies to "tl" if you >> pronounce "xiuhtli". >> >> >> >> Ximoyecpia (take care) >> >> >> >> Tomas Amaya >> >> >> 2013/3/15 grigsby tom >> >>> Estimados listeros, >>> >>> One of the largest of the now disused lime kilns in San >>> Andres de la Cal is pronounced by the villagers as xiuh li tempa which they >>> translate as "en la orilla de las yerbas." I've tried pronouncing the site, >>> xiuhuitl i tempa but nobody's buying that form. Is the former possible? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Tom >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Sun Mar 17 22:10:40 2013 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:10:40 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: <20130317172335.0ookhfbsw00gcg8c@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl > because of those two consonants /h/ and /tl/ coming up against each > other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) Not that it makes any difference in the big picture, but there is no glottal stop implied by the spelling xiuhtl. The uh would stand for [w]. Fran Karttunen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 17 22:33:11 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:33:11 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes. :-) Quoting Frances Karttunen : > > On Mar 17, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >> because of those two consonants /h/ and /tl/ coming up against each >> other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) > > > Not that it makes any difference in the big picture, but there is no > glottal stop implied by the spelling xiuhtl. The uh would stand for > [w]. > > Fran Karttunen > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 17 22:34:56 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:34:56 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Frances Karttunen : > > On Mar 17, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > >> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >> because of those two consonants /h/ and /tl/ coming up against each >> other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) > > > Not that it makes any difference in the big picture, but there is no > glottal stop implied by the spelling xiuhtl. The uh would stand for > [w]. > > Fran Karttunen > > I was *really* writing too fast. :-) The two consonants /w/ and /tl/ still do not work well together and a *xiuhtl is still an unexpected reanalysis. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tom_grigsby at yahoo.com Mon Mar 18 01:10:42 2013 From: tom_grigsby at yahoo.com (grigsby tom) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:10:42 -0700 Subject: lime kiln Message-ID: Estimados listeros, Thanks for the input regarding my lime kiln. To clarify matters, the term under examination comes from San Andres de la Cal which is located in the Tepoztlan municipio and is about 3 km. from Santa Catarina. Thanks again, Tom _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Mar 18 19:34:40 2013 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:34:40 +0100 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: <20130317173018.qb32i2bio0ws00gs@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Modern Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has "nemiliztl", tlacualiztl, etc., with the accent on the penultimate syllable. John On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: > > > As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" dialect, and needs to find that out. > > Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. > > (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in *xiuhtli.) > > If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish translation he was given. > > Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 18 20:43:00 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:43:00 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good. But this exception is not expected for Nahuatl. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Modern Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has "nemiliztl", tlacualiztl, etc., with > the accent on the penultimate syllable. > John > > On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: > >> Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: >> >> >> As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" >> dialect, and needs to find that out. >> >> Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem >> impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or >> /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that >> end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve >> as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. >> >> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >> because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming >> up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in >> *xiuhtli.) >> >> If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially >> 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish >> translation he was given. >> >> Michael >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 18 20:44:07 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:44:07 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I wonder there is in fact a devoiced /i/ that is hard to hear.. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Modern Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has "nemiliztl", tlacualiztl, etc., with > the accent on the penultimate syllable. > John > > On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: > >> Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: >> >> >> As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" >> dialect, and needs to find that out. >> >> Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem >> impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or >> /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that >> end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve >> as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. >> >> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >> because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming >> up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in >> *xiuhtli.) >> >> If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially >> 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish >> translation he was given. >> >> Michael >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Mar 19 04:12:25 2013 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 00:12:25 -0400 Subject: name for a lime kiln Message-ID: Michael, John, and all, I have spent a good deal of time (not recently) with a good friend who speaks Tlaxcallan Nahuatl. We focused on the leftward stress movement at one point and discussed words such at "tlacualiztl" and "tzotzomahtl". My phonetic memory is that there were no final voiceless [i]'s, even ones that were hard to hear |8-) ... Another argument for the lack of a final voiceless vowel segment in these words is that the stress moves one syllable to the left and the integrity of the penultimate stress pattern is maintained by the *dropping* of the final vowel. The maintenance of a final voiceless vowel would create an irregular stress pattern. BUT the strongest evidence for the lack of final voiceless vowels is that they are not there -- not audible. I have a collection of recordings from various dialects of Spanish that contain a number of examples of voiceless vowels -- recordings which have been played hundreds of times and perceived by hundreds of phonetics students. A voiceless vowel is a segment that is perceivably high or low, front or back, rounded or unrounded, etc. -- in other words, it has all the characteristics of the corresponding voiced vowel except voicing. Joe Quoting Michael McCafferty : > John, > > I wonder there is in fact a devoiced /i/ that is hard to hear.. > > Michael > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > >> Modern Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has "nemiliztl", tlacualiztl, etc., with >> the accent on the penultimate syllable. >> John >> >> On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Michael McCafferty >> wrote: >> >>> Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: >>> >>> >>> As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" >>> dialect, and needs to find that out. >>> >>> Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem >>> impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or >>> /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that >>> end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve >>> as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. >>> >>> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >>> because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming >>> up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in >>> *xiuhtli.) >>> >>> If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially >>> 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish >>> translation he was given. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Mar 19 07:54:23 2013 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:54:23 +0100 Subject: name for a lime kiln In-Reply-To: <20130319001225.1fmnbpblfcw04s8o@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, Another element in Tlaxcallan Nahuatl's leftward stress movement is the absolutive forms of nouns traditionally ending in -li. So we have tlaxcal, "tortilla", tlecol, "charcoal", tlaol, "corn kernels", tamal, "tamal", etc. with the accent on the penultimate syllable. I have a question. Is the process of final vowel degredation as seen in -ca/que/qui/c/?, -tla/tle/tli/tl/?, -hua/hue/hui/uh/? the result of leftward stress movement, or is it the other way around? John On Mar 19, 2013, at 5:12 AM, "Campbell, R. Joe" wrote: > Michael, John, and all, > > I have spent a good deal of time (not recently) with a good friend who speaks Tlaxcallan Nahuatl. We focused on the leftward stress movement at one point and discussed words such at "tlacualiztl" and "tzotzomahtl". My phonetic memory is that there were no final voiceless [i]'s, even ones that were hard to hear |8-) ... > > Another argument for the lack of a final voiceless vowel segment in these words is that the stress moves one syllable to the left and the integrity of the penultimate stress pattern is maintained by the *dropping* of the final vowel. The maintenance of a final voiceless vowel would create an irregular stress pattern. > > BUT the strongest evidence for the lack of final voiceless vowels is that they are not there -- not audible. I have a collection of recordings from various dialects of Spanish that contain a number of examples of voiceless vowels -- recordings which have been played hundreds of times and perceived by hundreds of phonetics students. A voiceless vowel is a segment that is perceivably high or low, front or back, rounded or unrounded, etc. -- in other words, it has all the characteristics of the corresponding voiced vowel except voicing. > > Joe > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> John, >> >> I wonder there is in fact a devoiced /i/ that is hard to hear.. >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting John Sullivan : >> >>> Modern Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has "nemiliztl", tlacualiztl, etc., with >>> the accent on the penultimate syllable. >>> John >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Michael McCafferty >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Let me rephrase (re-ihcuiloa) what I said, as I was typing too fast: >>>> >>>> >>>> As I mentioned to Tom off-list last week, he may have an "L" >>>> dialect, and needs to find that out. >>>> >>>> Since the basic morpheme for 'grass' is /xiw-/, it does not seem >>>> impossible for a dialect to reanalyze this term as /xiwtli/ (or >>>> /xiwli/ in an "L" dialect), as there are commonly used terms that >>>> end in /-xiwtli/ such as icxiuhtli and huexiuhtli that would serve >>>> as a basis and stimulation for such a reanalysis. >>>> >>>> (It would be very odd for xihuitl to be reanalyzed as *xiuhtl >>>> because of those two consonants /?/ (glottal stop) and /tl/ coming >>>> up against each other. A reanalysis would much more likely result in >>>> *xiuhtli.) >>>> >>>> If reanalysis has occurred, then what Tom could be essentially >>>> 'xiuhtli itempa(n)', 'on the grass's lip', which mirrors the Spanish >>>> translation he was given. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Mar 21 21:00:11 2013 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:00:11 -0400 Subject: Help with the Florentine Codex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I have another problem. No, it's not that I'm getting bad gas mileage in my car -- and my dogs aren't sick. It's a word or maybe a phrase of Nahuatl in the Florentine Codex. Book 2, page 59 (twenty-second chapter) of the Dibble and Anderson edition: ... yn aic omaltique, qujnmuchiquacmaltia, mamoujia: D&A's English translation: they washed the heads of all; they soaped themselves. My problem is that for the "-maltia" portion to be logical, the 'm' needs to represent a reflexive object prefix "m(o)-". When you look at the corresponding section of the facsimile of the Florentine, there is a very small blank space before "-maltia", but that is not crucial to the problem. It simply seems that from the morphological point of view, "maltia" must be a separate word. That leaves: qujnmuchiquac = quinmochicuac. Molina gives "quin icuac" ('quin ihcuac') as 'entonces'. If 'moch' can be interpolated in this phrase, the problem is solved. quin moch ihcuac maltia = then everyone bathes What do y'all think? I would appreciate some help. Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Fri Mar 22 08:01:32 2013 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 02:01:32 -0600 Subject: Help with the Florentine Codex In-Reply-To: <20130321170011.4kjd75wpgk488so8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Ahmo ximotequipacho Joeltzin? I would write the text this way: ?(yn yehuantin yn) aic omalt?queh, quin nochih ihcuac momalt?ah, mo(a)mohu?ah? In Spanish: en cuanto a los que nunca se han ba?ado, es entonces cuando se ba?an y lavan la cabeza (con amolli). In English: as for the ones who never have bathed, it was at this moment when they bath and wash their head themselves (by applying amolli thereon). I think it is the real meaning of the text. We understand it so (at home we use to talk in nahuat (Cuetzalan)). Another example, (also a joke): Yn yehuat yn Joeltzin motequipachohua, patioh in gazolina, ahuel quicui in itepoz. Axcan ihtacahuic yn itepoz. Ahoc molinia. Quin yehuat yn temachtihqui Joel moquetza, mocuahuahuana, ihcuac in moilhu?a: aocmo nitepozcuiz. Ninehnemiz, nochipa ninehnemiz. Huan pehua nehnemi, yn iitzcuin yn mococohuaya, pahtoc-ya paccayauh ihuan. Mr. Joel is worry because the gasoline is very expensive. He cannot use his car. Now his car is broken. It does not work any more. At this moment the teacher Joel stands up, scratches his head, then says to himself: I won?t use a car any more. I will walk. And he begins to walk; his dog, who was sick, already healthy go with him very happy. Niamechyoltapalohua Tomas Amaya 2013/3/21 Campbell, R. Joe > Nocnihuan, > > I have another problem. No, it's not that I'm getting bad gas mileage in > my car -- and my dogs aren't sick. It's a word or maybe a phrase of > Nahuatl > in the Florentine Codex. > > Book 2, page 59 (twenty-second chapter) of the Dibble and Anderson > edition: > > ... yn aic omaltique, qujnmuchiquacmaltia, mamoujia: > D&A's English translation: they washed the heads of all; they soaped > themselves. > > My problem is that for the "-maltia" portion to be logical, the 'm' needs > to > represent a reflexive object prefix "m(o)-". When you look at the > corresponding section of the facsimile of the Florentine, there is a very > small blank space before "-maltia", but that is not crucial to the problem. > It simply seems that from the morphological point of view, "maltia" must > be a > separate word. > > That leaves: qujnmuchiquac = quinmochicuac. Molina gives "quin icuac" > ('quin ihcuac') as 'entonces'. If 'moch' can be interpolated in this > phrase, the problem is solved. > > quin moch ihcuac maltia = then everyone bathes > > What do y'all think? > > I would appreciate some help. > > Joe > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Sat Mar 23 02:45:23 2013 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:45:23 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 286, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gracias Michael Swanton Message-ID: Ch?a significa esperar, cuando se conjugan "se utiliza "de la siguiente manera: Neh nik ch?a--------- ----yo esperoteh tik ch?a---------------tu esperasyeh ki ch?a---------------el esperatehhuan tik ch?a---------nosotros espramosimehhuan in ki ch?a-----ud. esperan yehhuan ki ch?a---------Ellos esparan La otra variante: chiya significa lo mismo. Neh nik chiya------- yo espero.... Gracias espero haya sido de ayuda. > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 12:00:02 -0600 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. CHIA and CHIYA (Susana Moraleda) > 2. Re: CHIA and CHIYA (Michael McCafferty) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:19:06 +0100 > From: Susana Moraleda > To: nahuatl discussion list > Subject: [Nahuat-l] CHIA and CHIYA > Message-ID: <5113C5EA.7030308 at losrancheros.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Piyali listeros, > Por favor alguien podria hablarme del fenomeno de la "desaparicion de la > Y" en palabras como CHIA en vez de CHIYA, PIA en vez de PIYA, etc.? > Los diccionarios de Molina y de Simeon ignoran la Y, igual que Sullivan > en su gramatica, mientras que en el diccionario de Karttunen y en el > curso de Campbell aparece la Y. > > Como lleg? a desaparecer esta Y? > > Gracias > Susana > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:42:13 -0500 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] CHIA and CHIYA > Message-ID: <20130207114213.5suzqfib0ogs8ogo at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Hi, Susana, > > There is always a wiser voice than mine to chime in, but from where I > stand the /y/ *is* there "chia". What we have is an orthographic > problem rather than a phonological one. This happened across the board > when European languages with their orthographical and phonological > mindsets encountered the "exotic" languages of the Americas. In your > cases, orthographic "chia" is in fact [chiya], and orthographic "pia" > is [piya]. > > I came across an interesting example of how Europeans spelled Native > words in "unusual" ways just the other day with an Illinois language > exclamation. The Jesuit missionary wrote it "ii8e". > > The letter 8 can represent a number of things, mostly /w/, /oo/, but > even /o(o)w/ and /wa/. > > So, what does ii8e represent? We're not sure of vowel length, but it > was something either /iiyoowe/ or /iyoowe/. ;-) > > Michael > > > > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > > > Piyali listeros, > > Por favor alguien podria hablarme del fenomeno de la "desaparicion de > > la Y" en palabras como CHIA en vez de CHIYA, PIA en vez de PIYA, etc.? > > Los diccionarios de Molina y de Simeon ignoran la Y, igual que > > Sullivan en su gramatica, mientras que en el diccionario de Karttunen > > y en el curso de Campbell aparece la Y. > > > > Como lleg? a desaparecer esta Y? > > > > Gracias > > Susana > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Mon Mar 25 13:42:57 2013 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 14:42:57 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gracias Jacinto, pero yo lo que queria era una explicacion academica de la desaparicion de la Y en verbos como CHIYA y PIYA, entre otros (la conjugacion de los verbos es algo que estudi? hace como 30 anos!!!!! ja ja -- pero gracias de todos modos). Mi pregunta especifica ya se me aclar? y estoy satisfecha. Es este un forum maravilloso en el que participo desde hace mas de 10 anos, y no me saldr? nunca pues es como una ancla de salvacion en los muchisimos momentos de dudas. Y que quienes mas saben de nuestro idioma sean personas no-mexicanas, me da, a mi tambien, mucho orgullo y satisfaccion, pero al mismo tiempo congoja al ver que muchos paisanos nuestros menosprecian nuestras lenguas autoctonas. Por lo que toca al Nahuatl moderno y sus variantes regionales, no quiero, ni puedo, por ahora, adentrarme. Susana On 23 March 2013 03:54, Jacinto Acatecatl wrote: > > Ch?a significa esperar, cuando se conjugan "se utiliza "de la siguiente > manera: > Neh nik ch?a--------- ----yo esperoteh tik ch?a---------------tu > esperasyeh ki ch?a---------------el esperatehhuan tik > ch?a---------nosotros espramosimehhuan in ki ch?a-----ud. esperan yehhuan > ki ch?a---------Ellos esparan > > La otra variante: chiya significa lo mismo. > Neh nik chiya------- yo espero.... > Gracias espero haya sido de ayuda. > > > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 12:00:02 -0600 > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. CHIA and CHIYA (Susana Moraleda) > > 2. Re: CHIA and CHIYA (Michael McCafferty) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:19:06 +0100 > > From: Susana Moraleda > > To: nahuatl discussion list > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] CHIA and CHIYA > > Message-ID: <5113C5EA.7030308 at losrancheros.org> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > Piyali listeros, > > Por favor alguien podria hablarme del fenomeno de la "desaparicion de la > > Y" en palabras como CHIA en vez de CHIYA, PIA en vez de PIYA, etc.? > > Los diccionarios de Molina y de Simeon ignoran la Y, igual que Sullivan > > en su gramatica, mientras que en el diccionario de Karttunen y en el > > curso de Campbell aparece la Y. > > > > Como lleg? a desaparecer esta Y? > > > > Gracias > > Susana > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:42:13 -0500 > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] CHIA and CHIYA > > Message-ID: <20130207114213.5suzqfib0ogs8ogo at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > Hi, Susana, > > > > There is always a wiser voice than mine to chime in, but from where I > > stand the /y/ *is* there "chia". What we have is an orthographic > > problem rather than a phonological one. This happened across the board > > when European languages with their orthographical and phonological > > mindsets encountered the "exotic" languages of the Americas. In your > > cases, orthographic "chia" is in fact [chiya], and orthographic "pia" > > is [piya]. > > > > I came across an interesting example of how Europeans spelled Native > > words in "unusual" ways just the other day with an Illinois language > > exclamation. The Jesuit missionary wrote it "ii8e". > > > > The letter 8 can represent a number of things, mostly /w/, /oo/, but > > even /o(o)w/ and /wa/. > > > > So, what does ii8e represent? We're not sure of vowel length, but it > > was something either /iiyoowe/ or /iyoowe/. ;-) > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > Quoting Susana Moraleda : > > > > > Piyali listeros, > > > Por favor alguien podria hablarme del fenomeno de la "desaparicion de > > > la Y" en palabras como CHIA en vez de CHIYA, PIA en vez de PIYA, etc.? > > > Los diccionarios de Molina y de Simeon ignoran la Y, igual que > > > Sullivan en su gramatica, mientras que en el diccionario de Karttunen > > > y en el curso de Campbell aparece la Y. > > > > > > Como lleg? a desaparecer esta Y? > > > > > > Gracias > > > Susana > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 > > *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Tue Mar 26 15:12:42 2013 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 08:12:42 -0700 Subject: On the birth name of Do=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1a_?=Marina Message-ID: I just ran into something that revived a question I had years ago. In many places it is asserted that the slave who became an interpreter, Do?a Marina, was named "Malinalli." by her parents because she "born on that day." In so far as I have seen, she would have had a number prefix to the name if that were so? Eyi-Mallinalli, frex. I've always considered that to be a backward false etymology. Marina would have been pronounced (by her and all nahuatl speakers), Malina. This being a word without meaning, they would have naturally used the word closest in sound to it. Recently I have found a new name attributed to her. Apparently this happened as far back as 1998, where it was claimed her nickname (or use name) was Tenepal. I've found "Cypess, Sandra Messinger. La Malinche in Mexican Literature: From History to Myth Austin: U. of Texas Press, 1991." cited as the origin of this name. But I don't have access to a research library myself to go hunting down references and finding out if it was mentioned earlier. And the discussion calls this nickname, supposedly given to her by the father who died when she was a child before she was sold to slavery (I'm having trouble getting my head around these things) "Tenepal" meaning "one who speaks with liveliness." I look at that and dig through my dictionaries and scratch my head. Teneh (Karttunen) something sharp, a cutting edge. suffix -pal "for the sake of," Molina, the closest he gets is "Tenepantla" en medio de otros But I go back to the "citation" on the wiki page and think? and Americans would mean "sassy" with that. But in the Nahuatl culture of the conquest, sassy would have been a very bad thing. It would not have been tolerated in a girl child. And Sahag?n's compilation of the appropriate treatment of children and their discipline does not suggest a "lively" child would meet with approval and a nickname celebrating this fact. Does anybody know where the new name suggested came from? And how likely it might be? Thank you for your help _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Tue Mar 26 15:46:09 2013 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 11:46:09 -0400 Subject: On the birth name of Do=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1a_?=Marina In-Reply-To: <5BBA5009-F584-4FB2-B628-DE01C0AE0CD6@ipinc.net> Message-ID: The "Tenepal" originated with the Nahua historian Chimalpahin. Please see my essay "Rethinking Malinche" in Indian Women of Early Mexico, edited by Schroeder, Wood, and Haskett, University of Oklahoma Press 1997. In particular, see p. 302 and 311-12. This essay is available as a podcast through nuestrafamiliaunida.com/ podcast/mujer.html It should also be available in two parts at: www.podcast-directory.co.uk/.../rethinking-malinche-part-01-by-dr- frances- karttunen-ph-d-nfu-josephpuentes-com-3325343.html ip.podcast-directory.co.uk/.../rethinking-malinche-part-02-by-dr- frances- karttunen-ph-d-nfu-josephpuentes-com-3325344.html Fran Karttunen On Mar 26, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Kier Salmon wrote: > I just ran into something that revived a question I had years ago. > > In many places it is asserted that the slave who became an > interpreter, Do?a Marina, was named "Malinalli." by her parents > because she "born on that day." > > In so far as I have seen, she would have had a number prefix to the > name if that were so? Eyi-Mallinalli, frex. > I've always considered that to be a backward false etymology. > Marina would have been pronounced (by her and all nahuatl > speakers), Malina. This being a word without meaning, they would > have naturally used the word closest in sound to it. > > Recently I have found a new name attributed to her. Apparently > this happened as far back as 1998, where it was claimed her > nickname (or use name) was Tenepal. I've found "Cypess, Sandra > Messinger. La Malinche in Mexican Literature: From History to Myth > Austin: U. of Texas Press, 1991." cited as the origin of this > name. But I don't have access to a research library myself to go > hunting down references and finding out if it was mentioned earlier. > > And the discussion calls this nickname, supposedly given to her by > the father who died when she was a child before she was sold to > slavery (I'm having trouble getting my head around these things) > "Tenepal" meaning "one who speaks with liveliness." > > I look at that and dig through my dictionaries and scratch my > head. Teneh (Karttunen) something sharp, a cutting edge. suffix - > pal "for the sake of," > Molina, the closest he gets is "Tenepantla" en medio de otros > > But I go back to the "citation" on the wiki page and think? and > Americans would mean "sassy" with that. But in the Nahuatl culture > of the conquest, sassy would have been a very bad thing. It would > not have been tolerated in a girl child. And Sahag?n's compilation > of the appropriate treatment of children and their discipline does > not suggest a "lively" child would meet with approval and a > nickname celebrating this fact. > > Does anybody know where the new name suggested came from? And how > likely it might be? > Thank you for your help > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Mar 27 03:07:44 2013 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 23:07:44 -0400 Subject: Help with the Florentine Codex Message-ID: Quoting "Campbell, R. Joe" : > Tlazohcamati Tomastzine!! > > Agradezco tu comentario. Se me hacia logica la frase separando la > palabra "qujnmuchiquacmaltia" en texto de Dibble y Anderson en cuatro > partes, pero no queria cambiar esta version del texto sin consultar a > mis companyeros. Nunca he visitado Cuetzalan. Tengo ganas de ir... a ver si voy en el verano... no mas que se quita la nieve y hago los preparativos... |8-) Saludos, Joe > > > Quoting Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino : > >> Ahmo ximotequipacho Joeltzin? >> >> >> >> I would write the text this way: >> >> >> >> "(yn yehuantin yn) aic omalt?queh, quin nochih ihcuac momalt?ah, >> mo(a)mohu?ah" >> >> >> >> In Spanish: en cuanto a los que nunca se han ba?ado, es entonces cuando se >> ba?an y lavan la cabeza (con amolli). >> >> In English: as for the ones who never have bathed, it was at this moment >> when they bath and wash their head themselves (by applying amolli >> thereon). >> >> I think it is the real meaning of the text. We understand it so (at home we >> use to talk in nahuat (Cuetzalan)). >> >> Another example, (also a joke): >> >> Yn yehuat yn Joeltzin motequipachohua, patioh in gazolina, ahuel quicui in >> itepoz. Axcan ihtacahuic yn itepoz. Ahoc molinia. >> >> Quin yehuat yn temachtihqui Joel moquetza, mocuahuahuana, ihcuac in >> moilhu?a: aocmo nitepozcuiz. Ninehnemiz, nochipa ninehnemiz. Huan pehua >> nehnemi, yn iitzcuin yn mococohuaya, pahtoc-ya paccayauh ihuan. >> >> Mr. Joel is worry because the gasoline is very expensive. He cannot use his >> car. Now his car is broken. It does not work any more. At this moment the >> teacher Joel stands up, scratches his head, then says to himself: I won't >> use a car any more. I will walk. And he begins to walk; his dog, who was >> sick, already healthy go with him very happy. >> >> >> >> Niamechyoltapalohua >> >> >> >> Tomas Amaya >> >> >> >> >> 2013/3/21 Campbell, R. Joe >> >>> Nocnihuan, >>> >>> I have another problem. No, it's not that I'm getting bad gas mileage in >>> my car -- and my dogs aren't sick. It's a word or maybe a phrase of >>> Nahuatl >>> in the Florentine Codex. >>> >>> Book 2, page 59 (twenty-second chapter) of the Dibble and Anderson >>> edition: >>> >>> ... yn aic omaltique, qujnmuchiquacmaltia, mamoujia: >>> D&A's English translation: they washed the heads of all; they soaped >>> themselves. >>> >>> My problem is that for the "-maltia" portion to be logical, the 'm' needs >>> to >>> represent a reflexive object prefix "m(o)-". When you look at the >>> corresponding section of the facsimile of the Florentine, there is a very >>> small blank space before "-maltia", but that is not crucial to the problem. >>> It simply seems that from the morphological point of view, "maltia" must >>> be a >>> separate word. >>> >>> That leaves: qujnmuchiquac = quinmochicuac. Molina gives "quin icuac" >>> ('quin ihcuac') as 'entonces'. If 'moch' can be interpolated in this >>> phrase, the problem is solved. >>> >>> quin moch ihcuac maltia = then everyone bathes >>> >>> What do y'all think? >>> >>> I would appreciate some help. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From susana at losrancheros.org Thu Mar 28 08:34:23 2013 From: susana at losrancheros.org (Susana Moraleda) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 09:34:23 +0100 Subject: 5 and 10 Message-ID: Niltze, I was wondering about the intrinsic meaning of MACUILLI and MATLACTLI. I've read many different explanations, and apparently/obviously there is MA- implying "hand", but then, talking to myself... -CUILLI - could this come from CUILIA (take something for oneself)? and -TLACTLI - torso? This tentative interpretation takes me to imagine a hand turned towards oneself and wanting to mean 5, versus both hands turned out (showing the torsos to oneself) and wanting to mean 10? Could this have been some kind of a "sign language" used by ancient Nahuatl speakers, similar to our own modern way of counting using our hands? Most certainly I am completely off road, but, would anyone care to share with me their own findings? Tlazohcamati huei miac Susana _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl