From idiez at me.com Sun Sep 1 04:13:30 2013 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 23:13:30 -0500 Subject: Totlahtol Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and other collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the following link https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15911797/malintzin_itlahtol.pdf or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last 500 years. Have fun! John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ Nahuatl Language Institute, Yale University; Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales University of Warsaw; Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas; Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 1 16:02:52 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 12:02:52 -0400 Subject: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English, and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it. Best, Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and other > collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all > variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are > standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We > hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual > works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the > hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously > standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, > and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the > eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical > standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, > "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by > Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now > being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in > educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the > following link > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15911797/malintzin_itlahtol.pdf > or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the > book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be > able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last > 500 years. Have fun! > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and > Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ Nahuatl Language Institute, > Yale University; > Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales > University of Warsaw; > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas; > Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rgyalrongskad at gmail.com Sun Sep 1 19:35:46 2013 From: rgyalrongskad at gmail.com (Guillaume Jacques) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 21:35:46 +0200 Subject: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <20130901120252.w92layfhwcwk0g08@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its typeability, especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry to say that using an orthography that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to Classical Nahuatl. Guillaume Jacques 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > John, > > I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon > publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English, > and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of > Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor > insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of > Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it. > > Best, > > Michael > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and >> other >> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all >> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are >> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We >> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual >> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the >> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously >> standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, >> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the >> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical >> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, >> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by >> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now >> being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in >> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the >> following link >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.**com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf >> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the >> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be >> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last >> 500 years. Have fun! >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and >> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ Nahuatl Language Institute, >> Yale University; >> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales >> University of Warsaw; >> Professor of Nahua language and culture >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas; >> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >> Centro Histórico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> Mexico >> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl > -- Guillaume Jacques CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Sun Sep 1 21:29:28 2013 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 14:29:28 -0700 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378070909.5045.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Michael Swanton To: Guillaume Jacques ; "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it having "little value" to be utterly baffling. Michael Swanton ________________________________ From: Guillaume Jacques To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its typeability, especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry to say that using an orthography that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to Classical Nahuatl. Guillaume Jacques 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > John, > > I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon > publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English, > and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of > Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor > insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of > Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it. > > Best, > > Michael > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > >  Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >>        "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and >> other >> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all >> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are >> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We >> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual >> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the >> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously >> standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, >> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the >> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical >> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, >> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by >> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now >> being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in >> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the >> following link >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.**com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf >> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the >> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be >> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last >> 500 years. Have fun! >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and >> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ Nahuatl Language Institute, >> Yale University; >> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales >> University of Warsaw; >> Professor of Nahua language and culture >> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas; >> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >> Centro Histórico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> Mexico >> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl > -- Guillaume Jacques CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Sep 2 05:33:23 2013 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (BT Yahoo!) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 06:33:23 +0100 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378070968.70521.YahooMailNeo@web142402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Michael Swanton wrote:- > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used during the colonial period. > We owe a great deal of our understanding of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it having "little value" to be utterly baffling. An inconvenience with Spanish-influenced classical Nahuatl spelling is that how to spell the sounds [k] and [s] changes if they are followed by [i] or [e] or [y]. That is a carry-over from phonetic changes that happened to the sounds [k] and [g] and [kw] in Europe in Classical Latin as it changed into Vulgar Latin and then into early Spanish (and Italian and French etc); those sound changes did not happen in Nahuatl. Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 2 14:59:15 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 10:59:15 -0400 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378070968.70521.YahooMailNeo@web142402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Carochi has served very well. No question. However, as far I as I can tell, only Carochi and Launey use Carochi's orthographic system. If you look around, that orthography is not where the modern study of the language is going. That's what I meant by my "utterly baffling" thought. I explained also in a letter to Mr. Guillaume that some rather "baffling" ideas about Nahuatl grammar are found in Launey, and I'm confident I didn't find all of the mistakes. In the end, I would recommend having a copy of Launey on your shelf, but not as the sole source of your Nahuatl knowledge, and certainly not as a book used in a classroom unless the professor is knowledgeable enough to 1) catch Launey's errors and 2) bring enormous amounts of material written in the non-Carochi orthographic system so that students can be in the flow of modern study. Best, Michael Quoting Michael Swanton : > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Michael Swanton > To: Guillaume Jacques ; > "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding > of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it > having "little value" to be utterly baffling. > > Michael Swanton > > > > ________________________________ > From: Guillaume Jacques > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi > orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its typeability, > especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to > represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry to say that using an orthography > that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. > Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to > Classical Nahuatl. > > > Guillaume Jacques > > > 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > > >> John, >> >> I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon >> publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English, >> and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of >> Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor >> insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of >> Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it. >> >> Best, >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting John Sullivan : >> >>   Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >>>         "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and >>> > other >>> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all >>> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are >>> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We >>> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual >>> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the >>> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously >>> standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, >>> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the >>> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical >>> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, >>> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by >>> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now >>> > being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in >>> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the >>> following link >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.**com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf >>> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the >>> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be >>> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last >>> 500 years. Have fun! >>> John >>> >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >>> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and >>> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ > Nahuatl Language Institute, >>> Yale University; >>> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales >>> University of Warsaw; >>> Professor of Nahua language and culture >>> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas; >>> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >>> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >>> Centro Histórico >>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >>> Mexico >>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >>> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >>> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 >>> idiez at me.com >>> www.macehualli.org >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > -- > Guillaume Jacques > CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO > http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques > http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ > http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 15:40:02 2013 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 08:40:02 -0700 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378100003.75362.YahooMailNeo@web186103.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am not sure what is inconvenient about a pair of simple, unambiguous writing conventions. Not only have some of the world's most widely written languages used such conventions without difficulty, but Nahuatl writers have also used them successfully for centuries. Orthographies and phonological representations are very different things. One would be hard pressed to find an example of a writing system in one language that has not been influenced by another. I think people generally understand and accept that writing conventions reflect history. That history not only includes earlier sound changes, but also contact. Today, English speakers write with Latin letters (and not runes, ogham or cuneiform) because of their history. Poles write with Latin letters instead of Cyrillic for a similar reason. Persian speakers today write with a script derived from Arabic (and not Pahlavi, cuneiform or Sanskrit), which they in turn passed on to Urdu. Etc. Doubtlessly such considerations of potential ambiguity and history informed Andrews, Campbell et al. in their pedagogic/philological orthography, since it makes use of these conventions. However, I am at a loss to explain how the "Carochi orthography", from which the proposal was derived, could possibly be qualified as being of little value. On the contrary, it has been exceedingly valuable for philological and linguistic investigation. Moreover, Launey's pedagogic use of it to teach the grammar of the old texts strikes me as quite sound, much in the tradition of the macron in Latin grammars or the overdot to indicate palatalization in Old English ones. I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. ________________________________ From: BT Yahoo! To: Nahuat-L Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol Michael Swanton wrote:- > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used during the colonial period. > We owe a great deal of our understanding of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it having "little value" to be utterly baffling. An inconvenience with Spanish-influenced classical Nahuatl spelling is that how to spell the sounds [k] and [s] changes if they are followed by [i] or [e] or [y]. That is a carry-over from phonetic changes that happened to the sounds [k] and [g] and [kw] in Europe in Classical Latin as it changed into Vulgar Latin and then into early Spanish (and Italian and French etc); those sound changes did not happen in Nahuatl. Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Sep 2 15:53:15 2013 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (BT Yahoo!) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 16:53:15 +0100 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378136402.54219.YahooMailNeo@web142402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ________________________________  Michael Swanton wrote:- > I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. Sorry: I meant [j] (the sound of English "y" in "yet" and Spanish "y" in "yo"). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Mon Sep 2 17:56:53 2013 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 13:56:53 -0400 Subject: Carochi's notation Message-ID: We are deeply indebted to Carochi for revealing, more than any other scholar of Nahuatl, the systematic phonology of the language. Without understanding distinctive vowel length and the function of the glottal stop as a segmental consonant (or--in many regional variants-- the reflexes of these two things), Nahuatl morphology seems arbitrary where it is, in fact, predictable. The problems with Carochi's notation are the following: 1. Marking long vowels with macrons and (some) short vowels with an accent mark is redundant. If a vowel is not long, then it is short. (To my knowledge, only Estonian has a three-way vowel-length contrast of over-long, half-long, and short.) In Nahuatl it is sufficient to mark the long vowels long. 2. Marking the presence of a glottal stop with a diacritic over the preceding vowel misleads people into the belief that it is not a consonantal segment but some quality of the vowel. Granted, a vowel followed by a glottal stop does have a different quality from one not followed by a glottal stop. (Long vowels shorten, all vowels reflect an anticipatory constriction of the glottis.) What is more, Carochi uses different diacritics for word-final glottal stop and for all others. Again, word-final glottal stop may sound different from a glottal stop within a word, but that difference is entirely predictable. In the systematic phonology of the language, the glottal stop (or its reflex in variant forms of the language) is a consonant just as much as /p/ and /t/, so it is best written with a letter rather than as a diacritic. 3. The other issue that has been brought up about the writing of /k/ as c or qu depending on context, and likewise /s/ as c/ç or z depending on context, is derived from Spanish orthography. An example of a subsequent sound change in Spanish happening without effect on Nahuatl orthography is the change (for Spanish but not for Nahuatl) of the sound represented by x. It has been an issue of long-standing whether Nahuatl should be better written with k, s, and w. To do so makes Nahuatl look "less Spanish," but it also renders the vast body of written Nahuatl less accessible to those who use the k/s/w notation. Nobody, to my knowledge, has proposed doing away with the digraphs tl, tz, and ch, so obviously the push has never been to the full realization of "one sound/one symbol." I gave all this long thought when embarking on how to represent the canonical forms in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, and I came down on the side of J. Richard Andrews. Back then, Una Canger advised me, "Whatever you choose will be OK, just as long as you tell people clearly what it is you are doing." In the introduction to the dictionary I did tell users what I was doing and why. But I sought to present information in the least misleading and the most serviceable form possible, and that is what I came up with, following Dick Andrews' example. Frances Karttunen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 19:52:45 2013 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 12:52:45 -0700 Subject: Fw: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378151527.52505.YahooMailNeo@web142401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Michael Swanton To: Michael McCafferty ; Nahuat-L Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol Michael McCafferty, I believe you are conflating different issues. One’s choice of orthography is different from erroneous grammatical interpretations. Regardless of what orthography one uses, it is possible to make mistakes in grammar, etymology and translation. This makes your dismissal of Launey’s Introduction based on erroneous, but unspecified, grammatical interpretations seem gratuitous when addressing a question about orthography. It is also, I believe, quite mistaken. I have taught Classical Nahuatl at Leiden University for several years before moving to Mexico and I found the French version of the Introduction to be quite valuable. Una Canger has used the Introduction for many years in her classes in Denmark. While all works can be improved—there are certainly some errata that need to be noted (especially in the translated versions of his book) and I have different interpretations of certain grammatical phenomena (particularly the passive)—Launey’s Introduction for me and many others continues to be the best, most accessible and overall reliable initiation to the language. [Full disclosure: I studied with Launey in Paris years ago]. Returning to the issue of orthography, Launey’s pedagogic use of the so-called Jesuit tradition (attested in Carochi, the Bancroft MS, Aldama y Guevara and to some extent in Rincón and Clavijero) strikes me as quite sound. When beginning Latin, one carefully learns to write the macrons in order to learn the grammar, meter and pronunciation even though they don’t appear in any classical texts. Eventually then, such annotations are disposed of once the learner has assimilated them. The same applies when learning Old English where not only are macrons added, but many authors add an overdot to and to indicate palatal as opposed to velar articulation. By the same token, when beginning Classical Hebrew, it is common to learn the texts with niqqud. In other words, there is a long practice—in reality going back to the Middle Ages—of adding diacritics to classical orthographies and texts to facilitate language learning. We may want to view Carochi’s orthography as part of this tradition. The advantage of this approach is that relevant information can be added to the text with minimal modification of the original. The goal then is to facilitate access to the original texts, not to retranscribe them. In my advanced level classes, we would take a text (even ones with such divergent orthographies as the Florentine Codex or Olmos) and directly mark long vowels and glottalization using Carochi’s diacritics without retranscribing. This made for a good exercise. Andrews’ orthography is different. It requires retranscription of texts because of its innovative use of to indicate glottalization. There is nothing wrong with that; it is just a slightly different approach to teaching the classical language. Indeed, there are some good reasons to do so (p.e. emphasizing the complementary distribution of Carochi’s grave and circumflex diacritics). And, even though it was not designed for such purposes, Andrews’ orthography would make for a fine practical orthography should the Nahua choose to adopt it. I do however disagree with your assertion that Andrews’s orthography characterizes the “modern study” of Nahuatl. Such an assertion would exclude many obligatory references for the language (Canger, Peralta, L. Campbell, Kaufman, Dakin, Lastra…). Indeed, what we see is that Andrew’s orthography is primarily used among certain scholars, generally American and generally more involved in lexicographic or philological endeavors (J. Campbell, Karttunen, Wright, Sullivan, Amith, Wimmer…and I have used it too in one article where I was making a comparative philological argument). As much as I respect and admire the work of these other scholars, I am sure they would be among the first to acknowledge that there are many important modern studies of Nahuatl that do not use Andrews’ orthography. The simple fact is that people write Nahuatl in different ways depending on their goal and on their intended audience, and any serious student of Nahuatl should be able to shift easily from one representational system to another. It would be most unfortunate if something as trivial as the use of an be taken as an emblem as to one’s membership “in the flow of modern study”. Regardless of orthography, any Nahuatl speaker who writes his language is making a contribution to bring the language into a new social space. Regardless of orthography, any scholar who makes a good argument is contributing to Nahuatl language studies. Regardless of orthography, any teacher who gets his students interested in Nahuatl and sets them on a path to learning more is broadening the discipline and dignifying the profound linguistic knowledge that Nahuatl speakers, past and present, have. Regards, Michael Swanton ________________________________ From: Michael McCafferty To: Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol Carochi has served very well. No question. However, as far I as I can tell, only Carochi and Launey use Carochi's orthographic system. If you look around, that orthography is not where the modern study of the language is going. That's what I meant by my "utterly baffling" thought. I explained also in a letter to Mr. Guillaume that some rather "baffling" ideas about Nahuatl grammar are found in Launey, and I'm confident I didn't find all of the mistakes. In the end, I would recommend having a copy of Launey on your shelf, but not as the sole source of your Nahuatl knowledge, and certainly not as a book used in a classroom unless the professor is knowledgeable enough to 1) catch Launey's errors and 2) bring enormous amounts of material written in the non-Carochi orthographic system so that students can be in the flow of modern study. Best, Michael Quoting Michael Swanton : > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Michael Swanton > To: Guillaume Jacques ; > "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding > of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it > having "little value" to be utterly baffling. > > Michael Swanton > > > > ________________________________ > From: Guillaume Jacques > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi > orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its typeability, > especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to > represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry to say that using an orthography > that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. > Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to > Classical Nahuatl. > > > Guillaume Jacques > > > 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > > >> John, >> >> I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon >> publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English, >> and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of >> Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor >> insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of >> Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it. >> >> Best, >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting John Sullivan : >> >>   Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >>>          "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and >>> > other >>> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all >>> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are >>> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We >>> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual >>> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the >>> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously >>> standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, >>> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the >>> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical >>> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, >>> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by >>> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now >>> > being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in >>> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the >>> following link >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.**com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf >>> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the >>> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be >>> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last >>> 500 years. Have fun! >>> John >>> >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >>> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and >>> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ > Nahuatl Language Institute, >>> Yale University; >>> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales >>> University of Warsaw; >>> Professor of Nahua language and culture >>> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas; >>> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >>> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >>> Centro Histórico >>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >>> Mexico >>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >>> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >>> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 >>> idiez at me.com >>> www.macehualli.org >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > -- > Guillaume Jacques > CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO > http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques > http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ > http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 2 22:25:37 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 18:25:37 -0400 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378151527.52505.YahooMailNeo@web142401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting Michael Swanton : > Michael McCafferty, > I believe you are conflating different issues. One?s choice of > orthography is different from erroneous grammatical interpretations. > Regardless of what orthography one uses, it is possible to make > mistakes in grammar, etymology and translation. This makes your > dismissal of Launey?s Introduction based on erroneous, but > unspecified, grammatical interpretations seem gratuitous when > addressing a question about orthography. Sorry. I didn't mean to imply gratuity. I meant to say that both his orthography and his grammar misinterpretations both detracted from the English translation of his Nahuatl grammar, which I presume is going to be used for the most part by English-speaking students, which probably includes Americans, I imagine. > > It is also, I believe, quite mistaken. I have taught Classical > Nahuatl at Leiden University for several years before moving to > Mexico and I found the French version of the Introduction to be quite > valuable. Una Canger has used the Introduction for many years in her > classes in Denmark. While all works can be improved?there are > certainly some errata that need to be noted (especially in the > translated versions of his book) and I have different interpretations > of certain grammatical phenomena (particularly the passive)?Launey?s > Introduction for me and many others continues to be the best, most > accessible and overall reliable initiation to the language. [Full > disclosure: I studied with Launey in Paris years ago]. The problem is that Launey had the book translated into English but did not vet it for its thirty-year-old errors, some of which are quite shocking, as you will see when the review appears. He simply handed the thing over to his translator, who added some items of his own, and wiped his hands of the whole affair. So, what Launey has done is given the world an out-of-date grammar. Launey's English translation of his Nahuatl grammar is itself a historical document as it stands today. Michael McCafferty _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Mon Sep 2 22:49:41 2013 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 18:49:41 -0400 Subject: Fw: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378151565.37770.YahooMailNeo@web142402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 2, 2013, at 3:52 PM, Michael Swanton wrote: > … In my advanced level classes, we would take a text (even ones > with such divergent orthographies as the Florentine Codex or Olmos) > and directly mark long vowels and glottalization using Carochi’s > diacritics…. If one thinks of "saltillo" as glottalization of vowels, one misses the point that stems that end in saltillo behave as stems that end in consonants, not as stems that end in vowels. Frances Karttunen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 03:16:30 2013 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 23:16:30 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 309, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Listeros, I am very happy that a there is now a publishing venture aiming to produce literature in Nahuatl for Nahuatl speakers - this is of immense value for speakers and linguists alike. Both congratulations and thanks and thanks are in order with to John and Justyna for starting this program and to Refugio for his excellent work. This notwithstanding I am highly critical of the reasoning behind the decision to champion a single orthographic standard, which from my point of view is both unnecessary and possibly detrimental. The reason it is unnecessary is that Nahuatl speakers since the 16th century have been able to communicate fine in writing without a standardized orthography (just like Shakespeare was able to write his plays without one). I know Nahuatl speakers who use a Carochi style writing system on facebook. And I know Nahuatl speakers who write using only ad hoc writing systems that to me is every bit as frustrating to read as the texts written by the least educated scribes of the 16th century, with arbitrary word boundaries and completely inconsistent representation of phonemes. But they get their points across to each other just fine. The main function of standardization is and has always been, not ease of communication, but the construction of norms, and normalcy, and by extension the construction of difference, hierarchy and power. The reason I think standardization is possibly linguistically (and socially) detrimental is because the process of standardization is inevitably also a political process that leads to the glossing over and eventual erasure of linguistic diversity (just a the introduction of an English standard orthography led to a political process that marginalized those dialects of English that became "non-standard"). Erasure both in the sense that some linguistic differences are rendered u=invisible to future scholars, but also in the sense that some varieties and the features their speakers feel characterize them are rendered invisible, as some varieties are given priority in the construction of a norm. In the discussion of Launey's-Carochi's orthography one point is forgotten, namely that Carochi chose to represent the glottal stop with a diacritic because that reflected something about his understanding of Tenochca Nahuatl phonology prosody. He did not consider the glottal stop to be a segment, but a suprasegmental feature of a syllable - which was supported by the fact that glottal stop and vowel length is in complementary distribution in Nahuatl. He also chose it because he was describing a language which did not have the phone [h], but a glottal stop. Some dialects have the phone [h] others have [ʔ] - this difference is made invisible by the choice to represent both sounds with the symbol . Nahuatl is not one thing, it is many. There are varieties in which exists as a separate phoneme and varieties in which it doesn't, there are varieties in which /b/ is phonemic and others in which it isn't, varieties that distinguish vowel length others that don't, some varieties that have 6 vowels others that have five, et cetera. These differences (and perhaps even more so the substantial morphological and syntactic differences among varieties) are not simply unfortunate obstacles for effective communication between speakers of different varieties, but are in fact the very linguistic and cultural wealth that we should strive to preserve and respect. best wishes, Magnus On 2 September 2013 15:58, wrote: > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fw: Totlahtol (Michael Swanton) > 2. Re: Fw: Totlahtol (BT Yahoo!) > 3. Carochi's notation (Frances Karttunen) > 4. Fw: Fw: Totlahtol (Michael Swanton) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Michael Swanton > To: BT Yahoo! , Nahuat-L < > nahuatl at LISTS.FAMSI.ORG> > Cc: > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 08:40:02 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > I am not sure what is inconvenient about a pair of simple, unambiguous > writing conventions. Not only have some of the world's most widely written > languages used such conventions without difficulty, but Nahuatl writers > have also used them successfully for centuries. Orthographies and > phonological representations are very different things. > > One would be hard pressed to find an example of a writing system in one > language that has not been influenced by another. I think people generally > understand and accept that writing conventions reflect history. That > history not only includes earlier sound changes, but also contact. Today, > English speakers write with Latin letters (and not runes, ogham or > cuneiform) because of their history. Poles write with Latin letters instead > of Cyrillic for a similar reason. Persian speakers today write with a > script derived from Arabic (and not Pahlavi, cuneiform or Sanskrit), which > they in turn passed on to Urdu. Etc. > > Doubtlessly such considerations of potential ambiguity and history > informed Andrews, Campbell et al. in their pedagogic/philological > orthography, since it makes use of these conventions. However, I am at a > loss to explain how the "Carochi orthography", from which the proposal was > derived, could possibly be qualified as being of little value. On the > contrary, it has been exceedingly valuable for philological and linguistic > investigation. Moreover, Launey's pedagogic use of it to teach the grammar > of the old texts strikes me as quite sound, much in the tradition of the > macron in Latin grammars or the overdot to indicate palatalization in Old > English ones. > > > I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. > > > ________________________________ > From: BT Yahoo! > To: Nahuat-L > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:33 AM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > Michael Swanton wrote:- > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > during the colonial period. > > We owe a great deal of our understanding of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I > find McCafferty's comments about it having "little value" to be utterly > baffling. > > An inconvenience with Spanish-influenced classical Nahuatl spelling is > that how to spell the sounds [k] and [s] changes if they are followed by > [i] or [e] or [y]. That is a carry-over from phonetic changes that happened > to the sounds [k] and [g] and [kw] in Europe in Classical Latin as it > changed into Vulgar Latin and then into early Spanish (and Italian and > French etc); those sound changes did not happen in Nahuatl. > > Citlalyani. > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: BT Yahoo! > To: Nahuat-L > Cc: > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 16:53:15 +0100 (BST) > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > ________________________________ > Michael Swanton wrote:- > > > I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. > Sorry: I meant [j] (the sound of English "y" in "yet" and Spanish "y" in > "yo"). > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Frances Karttunen > To: nahuatl discussion list > Cc: > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 13:56:53 -0400 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Carochi's notation > We are deeply indebted to Carochi for revealing, more than any other > scholar of Nahuatl, the systematic phonology of the language. Without > understanding distinctive vowel length and the function of the glottal stop > as a segmental consonant (or--in many regional variants--the reflexes of > these two things), Nahuatl morphology seems arbitrary where it is, in fact, > predictable. > > The problems with Carochi's notation are the following: > > 1. Marking long vowels with macrons and (some) short vowels with an accent > mark is redundant. If a vowel is not long, then it is short. (To my > knowledge, only Estonian has a three-way vowel-length contrast of > over-long, half-long, and short.) In Nahuatl it is sufficient to mark the > long vowels long. > > 2. Marking the presence of a glottal stop with a diacritic over the > preceding vowel misleads people into the belief that it is not a > consonantal segment but some quality of the vowel. Granted, a vowel > followed by a glottal stop does have a different quality from one not > followed by a glottal stop. (Long vowels shorten, all vowels reflect an > anticipatory constriction of the glottis.) What is more, Carochi uses > different diacritics for word-final glottal stop and for all others. Again, > word-final glottal stop may sound different from a glottal stop within a > word, but that difference is entirely predictable. In the systematic > phonology of the language, the glottal stop (or its reflex in variant forms > of the language) is a consonant just as much as /p/ and /t/, so it is best > written with a letter rather than as a diacritic. > > 3. The other issue that has been brought up about the writing of /k/ as c > or qu depending on context, and likewise /s/ as c/ç or z depending on > context, is derived from Spanish orthography. An example of a subsequent > sound change in Spanish happening without effect on Nahuatl orthography is > the change (for Spanish but not for Nahuatl) of the sound represented by x. > > It has been an issue of long-standing whether Nahuatl should be better > written with k, s, and w. To do so makes Nahuatl look "less Spanish," but > it also renders the vast body of written Nahuatl less accessible to those > who use the k/s/w notation. Nobody, to my knowledge, has proposed doing > away with the digraphs tl, tz, and ch, so obviously the push has never been > to the full realization of "one sound/one symbol." > > I gave all this long thought when embarking on how to represent the > canonical forms in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, and I came down on > the side of J. Richard Andrews. Back then, Una Canger advised me, "Whatever > you choose will be OK, just as long as you tell people clearly what it is > you are doing." In the introduction to the dictionary I did tell users what > I was doing and why. But I sought to present information in the least > misleading and the most serviceable form possible, and that is what I came > up with, following Dick Andrews' example. > > Frances Karttunen > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Michael Swanton > To: Nahuat-L > Cc: > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 12:52:45 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Fw: Totlahtol > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Michael Swanton > To: Michael McCafferty ; Nahuat-L < > nahuatl at LISTS.FAMSI.ORG> > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > Michael McCafferty, > I believe you are conflating different issues. One’s choice of orthography > is different from erroneous grammatical interpretations. Regardless of what > orthography one uses, it is possible to make mistakes in grammar, etymology > and translation. This makes your dismissal of Launey’s Introduction based > on erroneous, but unspecified, grammatical interpretations seem gratuitous > when addressing a question about orthography. > > It is also, I believe, quite mistaken. I have taught Classical Nahuatl at > Leiden University for several years before moving to Mexico and I found the > French version of the Introduction to be quite valuable. Una Canger has > used the Introduction for many years in her classes in Denmark. While all > works can be improved—there are certainly some errata that need to be noted > (especially in the translated versions of his book) and I have different > interpretations of certain grammatical phenomena (particularly the > passive)—Launey’s Introduction for me and many others continues to be the > best, most accessible and overall reliable initiation to the language. > [Full disclosure: I studied with Launey in Paris years ago]. > > Returning to the issue of orthography, Launey’s pedagogic use of the > so-called Jesuit tradition (attested in Carochi, the Bancroft MS, Aldama y > Guevara and to some extent in Rincón and Clavijero) strikes me as quite > sound. When beginning Latin, one carefully learns to write the macrons in > order to learn the grammar, meter and pronunciation even though they don’t > appear in any classical texts. Eventually then, such annotations are > disposed of once the learner has assimilated them. The same applies when > learning Old English where not only are macrons added, but many authors add > an overdot to > and to indicate palatal as opposed to velar articulation. By the > same token, when beginning Classical Hebrew, it is common to learn the > texts with niqqud. In other words, there is a long practice—in reality > going back to the Middle Ages—of adding diacritics to classical > orthographies and texts to facilitate language learning. We may want to > view Carochi’s orthography as part of this tradition. > > The advantage of this approach is that relevant information can be added > to the text with minimal modification of the original. The goal then is to > facilitate access to the original texts, not to retranscribe them. In my > advanced level classes, we would take a text (even ones with such divergent > orthographies as the Florentine Codex or Olmos) and directly mark long > vowels and glottalization using Carochi’s diacritics without > retranscribing. This made for a good exercise. > > Andrews’ orthography is different. It requires > retranscription of texts because of its innovative use of to indicate > glottalization. There is nothing wrong with that; it is just a slightly > different approach to teaching the classical language. Indeed, there are > some good reasons to do so (p.e. emphasizing the complementary distribution > of Carochi’s grave and circumflex diacritics). And, even though it was not > designed for such purposes, Andrews’ orthography would make for a fine > practical orthography should the Nahua choose to adopt it. > > I do however disagree with your assertion that Andrews’s orthography > characterizes the “modern study” of Nahuatl. Such an assertion would > exclude many obligatory references for the language (Canger, Peralta, L. > Campbell, Kaufman, Dakin, Lastra…). Indeed, what we see is that Andrew’s > orthography is primarily used among certain scholars, generally American > and generally more involved in lexicographic or philological endeavors (J. > Campbell, Karttunen, Wright, Sullivan, Amith, Wimmer…and I have used it > too in one article where I was making a comparative philological argument). > As much as I respect and admire the work of these other scholars, I am sure > they would be among the first to acknowledge that there are many important > modern studies of Nahuatl that do not use Andrews’ orthography. The simple > fact is that people write Nahuatl in different ways depending on their goal > and on their intended audience, and any serious student of Nahuatl should > be able to shift easily from one representational system to another. > > It would be most unfortunate if something as trivial as the use of an > be taken as an emblem as to one’s membership “in the flow of modern study”. > > Regardless of orthography, any Nahuatl speaker who writes his language is > making a contribution to bring the language into a new social space. > Regardless of orthography, any scholar who makes > a good argument is contributing to Nahuatl language studies. Regardless > of orthography, any teacher who gets his students interested in Nahuatl and > sets them on a path to learning more is broadening the discipline and > dignifying the profound linguistic knowledge that Nahuatl speakers, past > and present, have. > > Regards, > Michael Swanton > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Michael McCafferty > To: > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 9:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > Carochi has served very well. No question. However, as far I as I can > tell, only Carochi and Launey use Carochi's orthographic system. If you > look around, that orthography is not where the modern study of the > language is going. That's what I meant by my "utterly baffling" thought. > > I explained also in a letter to Mr. Guillaume that some rather > "baffling" ideas about Nahuatl grammar are found in Launey, and I'm > confident I didn't find all of the mistakes. In the end, I would > recommend having a copy of Launey on your shelf, but not as the sole > source of your Nahuatl knowledge, and certainly not as a book used in a > classroom unless the professor is knowledgeable enough to 1) catch > Launey's errors and 2) bring enormous amounts of material written in > the non-Carochi orthographic system so that students can be in the flow > of modern > study. > > Best, > > Michael > > > Quoting Michael Swanton : > > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > > From: Michael Swanton > > To: Guillaume Jacques ; > > "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > > > > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > > > during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding > > of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it > > having "little value" to be utterly baffling. > > > > Michael Swanton > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Guillaume Jacques > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > > > I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi > > orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its > typeability, > > especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to > > represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry > to say that using an orthography > > that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. > > Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to > > Classical Nahuatl. > > > > > > Guillaume Jacques > > > > > > 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > > > > > >> John, > >> > >> I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon > >> publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to > English, > >> and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of > >> Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor > >> insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects > of > >> Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in > using it. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> > >> Quoting John Sullivan : > >> > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > >>> "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and > >>> > > other > >>> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all > >>> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are > >>> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We > >>> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual > >>> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the > >>> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously > >>> standardizing the orthography of all > variants across space and time, > >>> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the > >>> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical > >>> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, > >>> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by > >>> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now > >>> > > being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in > >>> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the > >>> following link > >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent. > **com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf< > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15911797/malintzin_itlahtol.pdf> > >>> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the > >>> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be > >>> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last > >>> 500 years. Have fun! > >>> John > >>> > >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. > >>> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and > >>> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ > > Nahuatl Language Institute, > >>> Yale University; > >>> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales > >>> University of Warsaw; > >>> Professor of Nahua language and culture > >>> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas; > >>> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > >>> Tacuba 152, int. > 43 > >>> Centro Histórico > >>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > >>> Mexico > >>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > >>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > >>> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > >>> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 > >>> idiez at me.com > >>> www.macehualli.org > >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> Nahuatl mailing list > >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl< > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl< > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Guillaume Jacques > > CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO > > http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques > > http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ > > http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 15:26:11 2013 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2013 11:26:11 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 309, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Listeros, I have not seen McCafferty's review. I am sure that some of the criticisms are valid and look forward to seeing it. To be blunt, however, I found MM's comments in various emails frankly offensive and misguided both in his assumptions regarding the history of the CUP publication and his comments on orthography. To start with the first: "The problem is that Launey had the book translated into English but did not vet it for its thirty-year-old errors, some of which are quite shocking, as you will see when the review appears. He simply handed the thing over to his translator, who added some items of his own, and wiped his hands of the whole affair." Does MM have some insight as to how the publication evolved and what rights were involved? Does he envision that Michel petitioned CUP to translate his book and then went on vacation, "wiping his hands of the whole affair". These are gratuitous remarks that demonstrate much more than naiveté. Rather they misrepresent the situation and are semantically loaded ("had translated", "quite shocking", "wiped his hands"), they are meant to impugn the professionalism of Michel as a scholar. This was a translation of a work proposed, as far as I know, by the translator MacKay, who in fact contacted me before submitting the proposal to CUP asking if he thought that a translation of Launey 1979 to English would be a valuable contribution. I said it would be though when I saw the project did have some misgivings about the proposed "adaptations" (see "translated and adapted by ...." on the cover page and credits) Some authors (here I refer to Michel) might take the opportunity of a translation to rework/review the original publication. But many others would not, having moved on to other interests and having limited time. It is certainly not unusual that a book be translated (in this case the 1979 version) without being updated and "vetted" by the author. To continue, I was asked to review the translation proposal in 2007. The conceptualization was, in my view, somewhat deficient and I made this known to CUP. Apparently my observations were never passed on to Michel. I am not even clear that he was aware of the changes that were being made to the French edition. I do not believe that the translator or author saw my review of the proposal. At any rate, I have published books and often the copyright is with the publisher, not the author. So it is not entirely clear the level of control Michel had over the CUP translation or how much he was involved in the process between the CUP decision to accept the proposed translation (2007) and the typesetting of the page proofs (2011). In 2011, after the book had been translated and typeset, I was asked by CUP to write a blurb for the publication jacket. In reviewing the page proofs noted what I perceived to be significant errors. Some dated back to the original 1979 French text, others were obviously new typos or inconsistencies; some were errors of translation or unfortunate observations introduced by the translator. I detailed what I found most problematic in a 28-page single-spaced set of observations. Michel was extremely gracious and went over the material as best he could given the circumstances (a typeset ms with a publication deadline and cost overruns). If errors remain they are probably because of editorial (CUP) considerations or because Michel had a perspective distinct from mine and chose to maintain his viewpoint. As anyone who has consulted Michel's monumental doctoral thesis on classical Nahuatl will know (this thesis came out in 1986, seven years after his French edition grammar), his knowledge of this language is unmatched. That is not to say that there may not be differences of interpretation with other scholars (e.g.,re: omnipredicativity) or perhaps even what may be considered now (27 years after Launey's thesis) infelicitous analyses. But a key point remains that the CUP translation is of a book published seven years before the thesis and probably written several years earlier than even that. It would not be unusual that between the book and thesis Michel caught errors and changed analyses. Regardless of the errors and miscommunications I would like to say that CUP is to be highly commended for holding up publication, missing a deadline, and allowing for many corrections to be made, corrections that are very expensive when done after page proofs. In sum, I think that the editorial process involved a degree of miscommunication that was unfortunate. But both CUP and Michel did a commendable job in correcting errors to the degree possible at the time of publication. MM's comments in his email are not simply misrepresentative but are stated in a tone and language that is not called for. But now to MM's comments about orthography, which I found extremely perplexing. His initial email made a rather gratuitous comment about Carochi's system and seemed to demonstrate a rather unusual claim of the right to use the orthography of his choice in the review coming out in AL: "and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it." I don't understand why MM characterizes Launey's "perpetuation" (a loaded term itself) of Carochi's orthography as "bedeviling". Is it annoying? unjustified? ad hoc or arbitrary? As far as I can tell, Michel wrote a grammar of classical Nahuatl and utilized the colonial orthography most representative of the phonemes of central valley Nahuatl. Not only was Carochi's analysis of the language brilliant, but his choice of orthography extremely innovative considering what his choices were at that time (given his foundation in Spanish and Latin). As to the point of an acute accent signaling a short vowel in many cases Carochi seems to use this accent in situations of contrast or to emphasize that the vowel is short or in certain roots (e.g., tétl, téqui/téco, célia). The situations in which Carochi uses an acute accent are not clear and, in fact, quite limited. They deserve study and analysis. A second point refers to what I can only understand as petulance and peevishness. The editor of AL apparently asked MM to use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of Nahuatl. MM said that he found this difficult because of the "little value" of said orthography. It seems to me that the editor was making a perfectly reasonable request to maintain consistency. For example, if Launey had a particular interpretation of tètequi (the first /e/ with a grave accent), would it be editorially wise to permit MM to either change the original orthography in the citation (e.g., "Launey holds that tehtequi ....") or to comment on the term in a changed orthography (e.g., "while Launey holds that tètequi is a term seldom found, I think that tehtequi is indeed quite common ...")? In short, I find the editorial suggestion at Anthropological Linguistics that MM use the orthography of the book under review not particularly unusual given the circumstances. And I find MM's comment that it was difficult for him to do so because he sees "little value in using it" petty. It seems that MM prefers that Michel use Andrews's orthography; considering the situation this would be anachronistic. If Launey wanted to cite an example from Carochi would he be expected to change Carochi's orthography in the citation? This would lead to all sorts of problems with no obvious benefit. A second question concerns the utility of Andrews's orthography. Michael Swanton is certainly correct in noting that while common in the works of certain US scholars, it is not used in Mexico and reflects neither the historical texts nor most modern orthographies. Una Canger, in her article in Making Dictionaries (p. 201) compares different orthographies and Andrews differs from Molina and Siméon in the use of "z" instead of the cedilla and in the use of "hu" in syllable initial context instead of "u". Certainly the "h" is not common in colonial orthographies (I believe Olmos is a partial exception). One can debate whether the "saltillo" is a segment or a feature of vowels based on either historical reconstruction or distribution. But clearly "h" affects alphabetization in a way that a diacritic does not and the use of diacritics makes "minimal pairs" in colonial orthography more salient (pati, for example, or a three-way contrast of patilia representing a long vowel, a short vowel, and a vowel followed by the saltillo). Finally, I think that an adage I use is relevant: "if standardization is necessary it won't work" and "if standardization works, it is not necessary". The SEP, decentralized by state, has been using an orthography that most Nahuatl-speakers grow up with. In all states "s" and "k" are used for [s] and [k]. Variation exists between "w" and "hu/uh", "h" and "j", "tz" and "ts", etc. Vowel length is not (or rarely) represented. To state that Andrews's orthography connects modern Nahuatl speakers to their linguistic heritage is erroneous (whatever other reasons might be used to justify it): it is significantly different from classical or colonial representations and it is significantly different from what speakers are now experiencing in the school systems. In sum, then, I found MM's comments about Launey's editorial responsibilities misplaced and misguided and his comments about orthography gratuitous. Jonathan On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen < magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote: > Listeros, > > I am very happy that a there is now a publishing venture aiming to produce > literature in Nahuatl for Nahuatl speakers - this is of immense value for > speakers and linguists alike. Both congratulations and thanks and thanks > are in order with to John and Justyna for starting this program and to > Refugio for his excellent work. > > This notwithstanding I am highly critical of the reasoning behind the > decision to champion a single orthographic standard, which from my point of > view is both unnecessary and possibly detrimental. The reason it is > unnecessary is that Nahuatl speakers since the 16th century have been able > to communicate fine in writing without a standardized orthography (just > like Shakespeare was able to write his plays without one). I know Nahuatl > speakers who use a Carochi style writing system on facebook. And I know > Nahuatl speakers who write using only ad hoc writing systems that to me is > every bit as frustrating to read as the texts written by the least educated > scribes of the 16th century, with arbitrary word boundaries and completely > inconsistent representation of phonemes. But they get their points across > to each other just fine. The main function of standardization is and has > always been, not ease of communication, but the construction of norms, and > normalcy, and by extension the construction of difference, hierarchy and > power. > > The reason I think standardization is possibly linguistically (and > socially) detrimental is because the process of standardization is > inevitably also a political process that leads to the glossing over and > eventual erasure of linguistic diversity (just a the introduction of an > English standard orthography led to a political process that marginalized > those dialects of English that became "non-standard"). Erasure both in the > sense that some linguistic differences are rendered u=invisible to future > scholars, but also in the sense that some varieties and the features their > speakers feel characterize them are rendered invisible, as some varieties > are given priority in the construction of a norm. > > In the discussion of Launey's-Carochi's orthography one point is forgotten, > namely that Carochi chose to represent the glottal stop with a diacritic > because that reflected something about his understanding of Tenochca > Nahuatl phonology prosody. He did not consider the glottal stop to be a > segment, but a suprasegmental feature of a syllable - which was supported > by the fact that glottal stop and vowel length is in complementary > distribution in Nahuatl. He also chose it because he was describing a > language which did not have the phone [h], but a glottal stop. Some > dialects have the phone [h] others have [ʔ] - this difference is made > invisible by the choice to represent both sounds with the symbol . > Nahuatl is not one thing, it is many. There are varieties in which > exists as a separate phoneme and varieties in which it doesn't, there are > varieties in which /b/ is phonemic and others in which it isn't, varieties > that distinguish vowel length others that don't, some varieties that have 6 > vowels others that have five, et cetera. These differences (and perhaps > even more so the substantial morphological and syntactic differences among > varieties) are not simply unfortunate obstacles for effective communication > between speakers of different varieties, but are in fact the very > linguistic and cultural wealth that we should strive to preserve and > respect. > > best wishes, > Magnus > > > On 2 September 2013 15:58, wrote: > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Fw: Totlahtol (Michael Swanton) > > 2. Re: Fw: Totlahtol (BT Yahoo!) > > 3. Carochi's notation (Frances Karttunen) > > 4. Fw: Fw: Totlahtol (Michael Swanton) > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Michael Swanton > > To: BT Yahoo! , Nahuat-L < > > nahuatl at LISTS.FAMSI.ORG> > > Cc: > > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 08:40:02 -0700 (PDT) > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > I am not sure what is inconvenient about a pair of simple, unambiguous > > writing conventions. Not only have some of the world's most widely > written > > languages used such conventions without difficulty, but Nahuatl writers > > have also used them successfully for centuries. Orthographies and > > phonological representations are very different things. > > > > One would be hard pressed to find an example of a writing system in one > > language that has not been influenced by another. I think people > generally > > understand and accept that writing conventions reflect history. That > > history not only includes earlier sound changes, but also contact. Today, > > English speakers write with Latin letters (and not runes, ogham or > > cuneiform) because of their history. Poles write with Latin letters > instead > > of Cyrillic for a similar reason. Persian speakers today write with a > > script derived from Arabic (and not Pahlavi, cuneiform or Sanskrit), > which > > they in turn passed on to Urdu. Etc. > > > > Doubtlessly such considerations of potential ambiguity and history > > informed Andrews, Campbell et al. in their pedagogic/philological > > orthography, since it makes use of these conventions. However, I am at a > > loss to explain how the "Carochi orthography", from which the proposal > was > > derived, could possibly be qualified as being of little value. On the > > contrary, it has been exceedingly valuable for philological and > linguistic > > investigation. Moreover, Launey's pedagogic use of it to teach the > grammar > > of the old texts strikes me as quite sound, much in the tradition of the > > macron in Latin grammars or the overdot to indicate palatalization in Old > > English ones. > > > > > > I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: BT Yahoo! > > To: Nahuat-L > > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:33 AM > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > > > > > > Michael Swanton wrote:- > > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > > during the colonial period. > > > We owe a great deal of our understanding of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. > I > > find McCafferty's comments about it having "little value" to be utterly > > baffling. > > > > An inconvenience with Spanish-influenced classical Nahuatl spelling is > > that how to spell the sounds [k] and [s] changes if they are followed by > > [i] or [e] or [y]. That is a carry-over from phonetic changes that > happened > > to the sounds [k] and [g] and [kw] in Europe in Classical Latin as it > > changed into Vulgar Latin and then into early Spanish (and Italian and > > French etc); those sound changes did not happen in Nahuatl. > > > > Citlalyani. > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: BT Yahoo! > > To: Nahuat-L > > Cc: > > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 16:53:15 +0100 (BST) > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Michael Swanton wrote:- > > > > > I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. > > Sorry: I meant [j] (the sound of English "y" in "yet" and Spanish "y" in > > "yo"). > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Frances Karttunen > > To: nahuatl discussion list > > Cc: > > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 13:56:53 -0400 > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Carochi's notation > > We are deeply indebted to Carochi for revealing, more than any other > > scholar of Nahuatl, the systematic phonology of the language. Without > > understanding distinctive vowel length and the function of the glottal > stop > > as a segmental consonant (or--in many regional variants--the reflexes of > > these two things), Nahuatl morphology seems arbitrary where it is, in > fact, > > predictable. > > > > The problems with Carochi's notation are the following: > > > > 1. Marking long vowels with macrons and (some) short vowels with an > accent > > mark is redundant. If a vowel is not long, then it is short. (To my > > knowledge, only Estonian has a three-way vowel-length contrast of > > over-long, half-long, and short.) In Nahuatl it is sufficient to mark the > > long vowels long. > > > > 2. Marking the presence of a glottal stop with a diacritic over the > > preceding vowel misleads people into the belief that it is not a > > consonantal segment but some quality of the vowel. Granted, a vowel > > followed by a glottal stop does have a different quality from one not > > followed by a glottal stop. (Long vowels shorten, all vowels reflect an > > anticipatory constriction of the glottis.) What is more, Carochi uses > > different diacritics for word-final glottal stop and for all others. > Again, > > word-final glottal stop may sound different from a glottal stop within a > > word, but that difference is entirely predictable. In the systematic > > phonology of the language, the glottal stop (or its reflex in variant > forms > > of the language) is a consonant just as much as /p/ and /t/, so it is > best > > written with a letter rather than as a diacritic. > > > > 3. The other issue that has been brought up about the writing of /k/ as c > > or qu depending on context, and likewise /s/ as c/ç or z depending on > > context, is derived from Spanish orthography. An example of a subsequent > > sound change in Spanish happening without effect on Nahuatl orthography > is > > the change (for Spanish but not for Nahuatl) of the sound represented by > x. > > > > It has been an issue of long-standing whether Nahuatl should be better > > written with k, s, and w. To do so makes Nahuatl look "less Spanish," > but > > it also renders the vast body of written Nahuatl less accessible to those > > who use the k/s/w notation. Nobody, to my knowledge, has proposed doing > > away with the digraphs tl, tz, and ch, so obviously the push has never > been > > to the full realization of "one sound/one symbol." > > > > I gave all this long thought when embarking on how to represent the > > canonical forms in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, and I came down > on > > the side of J. Richard Andrews. Back then, Una Canger advised me, > "Whatever > > you choose will be OK, just as long as you tell people clearly what it is > > you are doing." In the introduction to the dictionary I did tell users > what > > I was doing and why. But I sought to present information in the least > > misleading and the most serviceable form possible, and that is what I > came > > up with, following Dick Andrews' example. > > > > Frances Karttunen > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Michael Swanton > > To: Nahuat-L > > Cc: > > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 12:52:45 -0700 (PDT) > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > > From: Michael Swanton > > To: Michael McCafferty ; Nahuat-L < > > nahuatl at LISTS.FAMSI.ORG> > > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 2:52 PM > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty, > > I believe you are conflating different issues. One’s choice of > orthography > > is different from erroneous grammatical interpretations. Regardless of > what > > orthography one uses, it is possible to make mistakes in grammar, > etymology > > and translation. This makes your dismissal of Launey’s Introduction based > > on erroneous, but unspecified, grammatical interpretations seem > gratuitous > > when addressing a question about orthography. > > > > It is also, I believe, quite mistaken. I have taught Classical Nahuatl at > > Leiden University for several years before moving to Mexico and I found > the > > French version of the Introduction to be quite valuable. Una Canger has > > used the Introduction for many years in her classes in Denmark. While all > > works can be improved—there are certainly some errata that need to be > noted > > (especially in the translated versions of his book) and I have different > > interpretations of certain grammatical phenomena (particularly the > > passive)—Launey’s Introduction for me and many others continues to be the > > best, most accessible and overall reliable initiation to the language. > > [Full disclosure: I studied with Launey in Paris years ago]. > > > > Returning to the issue of orthography, Launey’s pedagogic use of the > > so-called Jesuit tradition (attested in Carochi, the Bancroft MS, Aldama > y > > Guevara and to some extent in Rincón and Clavijero) strikes me as quite > > sound. When beginning Latin, one carefully learns to write the macrons in > > order to learn the grammar, meter and pronunciation even though they > don’t > > appear in any classical texts. Eventually then, such annotations are > > disposed of once the learner has assimilated them. The same applies when > > learning Old English where not only are macrons added, but many authors > add > > an overdot to > > and to indicate palatal as opposed to velar articulation. By the > > same token, when beginning Classical Hebrew, it is common to learn the > > texts with niqqud. In other words, there is a long practice—in reality > > going back to the Middle Ages—of adding diacritics to classical > > orthographies and texts to facilitate language learning. We may want to > > view Carochi’s orthography as part of this tradition. > > > > The advantage of this approach is that relevant information can be added > > to the text with minimal modification of the original. The goal then is > to > > facilitate access to the original texts, not to retranscribe them. In my > > advanced level classes, we would take a text (even ones with such > divergent > > orthographies as the Florentine Codex or Olmos) and directly mark long > > vowels and glottalization using Carochi’s diacritics without > > retranscribing. This made for a good exercise. > > > > Andrews’ orthography is different. It requires > > retranscription of texts because of its innovative use of to > indicate > > glottalization. There is nothing wrong with that; it is just a slightly > > different approach to teaching the classical language. Indeed, there are > > some good reasons to do so (p.e. emphasizing the complementary > distribution > > of Carochi’s grave and circumflex diacritics). And, even though it was > not > > designed for such purposes, Andrews’ orthography would make for a fine > > practical orthography should the Nahua choose to adopt it. > > > > I do however disagree with your assertion that Andrews’s orthography > > characterizes the “modern study” of Nahuatl. Such an assertion would > > exclude many obligatory references for the language (Canger, Peralta, L. > > Campbell, Kaufman, Dakin, Lastra…). Indeed, what we see is that Andrew’s > > orthography is primarily used among certain scholars, generally American > > and generally more involved in lexicographic or philological endeavors > (J. > > Campbell, Karttunen, Wright, Sullivan, Amith, Wimmer…and I have used it > > too in one article where I was making a comparative philological > argument). > > As much as I respect and admire the work of these other scholars, I am > sure > > they would be among the first to acknowledge that there are many > important > > modern studies of Nahuatl that do not use Andrews’ orthography. The > simple > > fact is that people write Nahuatl in different ways depending on their > goal > > and on their intended audience, and any serious student of Nahuatl should > > be able to shift easily from one representational system to another. > > > > It would be most unfortunate if something as trivial as the use of an > > be taken as an emblem as to one’s membership “in the flow of modern > study”. > > > > Regardless of orthography, any Nahuatl speaker who writes his language is > > making a contribution to bring the language into a new social space. > > Regardless of orthography, any scholar who makes > > a good argument is contributing to Nahuatl language studies. Regardless > > of orthography, any teacher who gets his students interested in Nahuatl > and > > sets them on a path to learning more is broadening the discipline and > > dignifying the profound linguistic knowledge that Nahuatl speakers, past > > and present, have. > > > > Regards, > > Michael Swanton > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: > > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 9:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > > > > Carochi has served very well. No question. However, as far I as I can > > tell, only Carochi and Launey use Carochi's orthographic system. If you > > look around, that orthography is not where the modern study of the > > language is going. That's what I meant by my "utterly baffling" thought. > > > > I explained also in a letter to Mr. Guillaume that some rather > > "baffling" ideas about Nahuatl grammar are found in Launey, and I'm > > confident I didn't find all of the mistakes. In the end, I would > > recommend having a copy of Launey on your shelf, but not as the sole > > source of your Nahuatl knowledge, and certainly not as a book used in a > > classroom unless the professor is knowledgeable enough to 1) catch > > Launey's errors and 2) bring enormous amounts of material written in > > the non-Carochi orthographic system so that students can be in the flow > > of modern > > study. > > > > Best, > > > > Michael > > > > > > Quoting Michael Swanton : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > > > From: Michael Swanton > > > To: Guillaume Jacques ; > > > "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > > > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > > > > > > > > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > > > > > during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding > > > of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it > > > having "little value" to be utterly baffling. > > > > > > Michael Swanton > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Guillaume Jacques > > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > > > > > > I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi > > > orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its > > typeability, > > > especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to > > > represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry > > to say that using an orthography > > > that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. > > > Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction > to > > > Classical Nahuatl. > > > > > > > > > Guillaume Jacques > > > > > > > > > 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > > > > > > > > >> John, > > >> > > >> I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon > > >> publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to > > English, > > >> and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of > > >> Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the > editor > > >> insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various > aspects > > of > > >> Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in > > using it. > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> > > >> Michael > > >> > > >> > > >> Quoting John Sullivan : > > >> > > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > > >>> "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ > and > > >>> > > > other > > >>> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all > > >>> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are > > >>> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We > > >>> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual > > >>> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the > > >>> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously > > >>> standardizing the orthography of all > > variants across space and time, > > >>> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the > > >>> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical > > >>> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, > > >>> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by > > >>> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now > > >>> > > > being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in > > >>> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the > > >>> following link > > >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent. > > **com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf< > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15911797/malintzin_itlahtol.pdf> > > >>> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the > > >>> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be > > >>> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last > > >>> 500 years. Have fun! > > >>> John > > >>> > > >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > >>> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and > > >>> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ > > > Nahuatl Language Institute, > > >>> Yale University; > > >>> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales > > >>> University of Warsaw; > > >>> Professor of Nahua language and culture > > >>> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas; > > >>> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > >>> Tacuba 152, int. > > 43 > > >>> Centro Histórico > > >>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > > >>> Mexico > > >>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > > >>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > > >>> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > > >>> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 > > >>> idiez at me.com > > >>> www.macehualli.org > > >>> > > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > > >>> Nahuatl mailing list > > >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl< > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> ______________________________**_________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl< > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Guillaume Jacques > > > CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO > > > http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques > > > http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ > > > http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Sep 3 22:20:55 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2013 18:20:55 -0400 Subject: Fritz: here is my intended note Message-ID: My sincere thanks to Magnus both on and off list for his insights and to Jonathan both on and off list for showing what went on behind the scenes before Launey's English translation was published. It's tricky work. I went back today to look at my "critique litteraire" of Launey's book, as I hadn't seen my review in a month or two, and discovered there is only one line, a parenthetical remark at that, about orthography, and it's not even a disparaging remark! So, I'm sure everyone will be happy about that. It looks like I focused solely on the grammar misinterpretations. At the very least, everyone will be able to open hisher copy of Launey's grammar and mark those pages where the errors occurred. I think, in the end, despite my shortcomings as a communicator by email, the comments on grammar in the review will contribute to our knowledge of the language. Best regards to all, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Sun Sep 15 12:05:08 2013 From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:05:08 +0100 Subject: 'Land and Liberty' Message-ID: Hola listeros, We've received an interesting question via our website, and I wonder if the group could help. Here's the message:- "I am wondering if 'Land and Liberty' and 'It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees' had standard Nahuatl translations during the revolution?" Any thoughts and suggestions would be warmly welcomed. Muchos saludos desde Londres, Ian Ian Mursell, B.Sc., M.A. MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University Director, 'Mexicolore' 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173 www.aztecs.org ian at mexicolore.co.uk 1980-2013: 33 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over 2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team' (British Museum Education Service) _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 18 16:09:15 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:09:15 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 310, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Jacinto Acatecatl : > Hola muy buenos días, para traducir el termino Libertad, resulta > complejo, sé de antemano que es las tierras mexicas habia esclavitud, > pero recordemos que el náhuatl tiene otra estructura gramatical, aún > así anoto acontinuación mi umilde traducción y esta sujeta a cambios, > criticas y comentarios. > Que tengan excelente día > > To tlalplan to nemilis, akache kuani ma nimiki, ihuan amo ni yoltos > tlankuakitok hua ni tlahyohuihtos.Mi tierra mi andar, es preferible > morir que vivir de rodillas sufriendo. > Gracias, Jacinto. Pero "nemilis" no quiere decir tambien "vivir"? No sei. Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Wed Sep 18 19:54:18 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 Subject: pregunta Message-ID: Es correcto decir: Inin inemeliz nocihuatl La vida de mi esposa. juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Sep 18 21:38:41 2013 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 Subject: pregunta In-Reply-To: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC@webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". John On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From yekeus at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 21:16:13 2013 From: yekeus at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Javier_Jim=E9nez?=) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 Subject: pregunta In-Reply-To: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC@webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de mí esposa. Saludos Javier On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From yekeus at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 22:05:41 2013 From: yekeus at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Javier_Jim=E9nez?=) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 Subject: pregunta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de mí esposa. Saludos Javier _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Thu Sep 19 17:04:31 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: thank you juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request To: nahuatl Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." Today's Topics: 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Es correcto decir: Inin inemeliz nocihuatl La vida de mi esposa. juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 From: John Sullivan To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". John On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 From: Javier Jiménez To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de mí esposa. Saludos Javier On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 From: Javier Jiménez To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de mí esposa. Saludos Javier ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Fri Sep 20 17:22:58 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 Subject: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: 1, Pero no le gustan los animales 2. Aunque tenemos un perro 3. El perro es de mi hija Mah cualli ohtli juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 20 19:40:03 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 Subject: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: In-Reply-To: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Juan: ¿De que habla usted? ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. Gracias, Michael Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 20 19:55:46 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 Subject: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: In-Reply-To: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > 3. El perro es de mi hija nohueltiuh ichichi > > > Mah cualli ohtli > ihuan tehhuatl Michael > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 20 20:37:40 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 Subject: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: In-Reply-To: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. :) Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Juan: > > ¿De que habla usted? > > ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > Gracias, > > Michael > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >> >> 3. El perro es de mi hija >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 20 21:16:55 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 Subject: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: In-Reply-To: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Mi espanol no es bueno. It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) so nochpochtzin ichichi Mille regrets, Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > nohueltiuh ichichi > >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> > > ihuan tehhuatl > > Michael > > >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Sat Sep 21 17:20:16 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:20:16 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: En realidad quiero que me digan como se escriben esas frases en Nahuatl. juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request To: nahuatl Sent: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) 2. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 3. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 4. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 5. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9 at Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1, Pero no le gustan los animales 2. Aunque tenemos un perro 3. El perro es de mi hija Mah cualli ohtli juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Juan: ¿De que habla usted? ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. Gracias, Michael Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > 3. El perro es de mi hija nohueltiuh ichichi > > > Mah cualli ohtli > ihuan tehhuatl Michael > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920163740.3ydz39k7wwckkg0w at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. :) Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Juan: > > ¿De que habla usted? > > ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > Gracias, > > Michael > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >> >> 3. El perro es de mi hija >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920171655.7q5hkbe6pwkwkoo8 at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Mi espanol no es bueno. It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) so nochpochtzin ichichi Mille regrets, Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > nohueltiuh ichichi > >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> > > ihuan tehhuatl > > Michael > > >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Sat Sep 21 17:30:56 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:30:56 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh icel oquichihuaya" "Todo el trabajo ella sola lo hacia" What is the purpose of the word ZAN? Tlazocamati juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request To: nahuatl Sent: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 Message-ID: <8D08371713A6059-1758-F3F3 at webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" thank you juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request To: nahuatl Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." Today's Topics: 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Es correcto decir: Inin inemeliz nocihuatl La vida de mi esposa. juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 From: John Sullivan To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". John On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 From: Javier Jiménez To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de mí esposa. Saludos Javier On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 From: Javier Jiménez To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de mí esposa. Saludos Javier ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 *************************************** ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Sun Sep 22 14:13:00 2013 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 10:13:00 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <8D085077692F54D-198C-A345@webmail-m274.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It conveys the sense of "solamente" which reinforces "icel" "sola." Fran Karttunen On Sep 21, 2013, at 1:30 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan > yeh icel oquichihuaya" > > "Todo el > trabajo ella sola lo hacia" > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > Tlazocamati > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Mon Sep 23 16:37:43 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 12:37:43 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ani?males seria yolcameh juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request To: nahuatl Sent: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) 2. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 3. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 4. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 5. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9 at Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1, Pero no le gustan los animales 2. Aunque tenemos un perro 3. El perro es de mi hija Mah cualli ohtli juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Juan: ¿De que habla usted? ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. Gracias, Michael Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > 3. El perro es de mi hija nohueltiuh ichichi > > > Mah cualli ohtli > ihuan tehhuatl Michael > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920163740.3ydz39k7wwckkg0w at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. :) Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Juan: > > ¿De que habla usted? > > ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > Gracias, > > Michael > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >> >> 3. El perro es de mi hija >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920171655.7q5hkbe6pwkwkoo8 at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Mi espanol no es bueno. It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) so nochpochtzin ichichi Mille regrets, Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > nohueltiuh ichichi > >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> > > ihuan tehhuatl > > Michael > > >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 23 19:24:31 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 15:24:31 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: <8D086925C5A0814-2068-16ED4@webmail-m210.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: En la lengua moderna, si. Es verdad. Pero en la langua classica, yolcatl es e singular e plurial. Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > Ani?males seria yolcameh > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 3. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 4. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 5. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9 at Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Juan: > > ¿De que habla usted? > > ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > Gracias, > > Michael > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >> >> 3. El perro es de mi hija >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > nohueltiuh ichichi > >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> > > ihuan tehhuatl > > Michael > > >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920163740.3ydz39k7wwckkg0w at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request > from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a > Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? > > I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. > > :) > > Michael > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> Juan: >> >> ¿De que habla usted? >> >> ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? >> >> Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. >> >> Gracias, >> >> Michael >> >> Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >>> >>> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >>> >>> 3. El perro es de mi hija >>> >>> >>> Mah cualli ohtli >>> >>> juan Vazquez >>> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920171655.7q5hkbe6pwkwkoo8 at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Mi espanol no es bueno. > > > > It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... > > nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' > > nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) > > so > > > nochpochtzin ichichi > > > Mille regrets, > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >> >> Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl >>> >>> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >> >> Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi >> >>> 3. El perro es de mi hija >> >> nohueltiuh ichichi >> >>> >>> >>> Mah cualli ohtli >>> >> >> ihuan tehhuatl >> >> Michael >> >> >>> juan Vazquez >>> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Tue Sep 24 20:24:55 2013 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 15:24:55 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <8D085077692F54D-198C-A345@webmail-m274.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Saludos Juan, Primero que nada es un muy buen enunciado en mexicano. Por tanto se pueden hacer varias traducciones al español: 1. "Nada más ella solita era la que hacía todo el trabajo" 2. "Todo el trabajo existente, lo hacía ella solita y nadie más" 3. "Todo ese trabajo, nomás lo hacía ella solita sin ayuda de nadie". El problema de esta frase es que una traducción más literal suena mal en español pues se trata de un enunciado con tópico inicial seguido de foco delimitado y especificado por ZAN Así, en inglés se podría decir: As for the whole work, she was the only one who carried it out. Te voy a poner un ejemplo en el mexicano de Cuetzalan. Yn matahcihuat zah tahcoyohuan in neci. Zayuh tahuananih in quitah. Tacah tihuinti xiauh mochantzinco mah ayamo tahcoyohuan. Yn matahcihuat quinhuica ohuihcan zayuh in ïn tahuananih, ïn tacah-cihuatohtocanih tahcoyohualquizah. Sonaría en español así: La matlahcihuatl solamente se aparece a media noche. Sólo pueden verla los borrachos. Si te emborrachas vete a tu casa antes de la media noche. La matlacihuatl se lleva a lugares horribles sólo a los borrachos y mujeriegos que salen a la media noche. Nimitzyolmahtapalohua Tomas Amaya 2013/9/21 > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh icel > oquichihuaya" > > "Todo el trabajo > ella sola lo hacia" > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > Tlazocamati > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > Message-ID: <8D08371713A6059-1758-F3F3 at webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > thank you > > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > From: John Sullivan > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > John > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > From: Javier Jiménez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > < > CAMYTJrE8a7LhczSpA8UOUcD7AEp67fzfMO9zEER441dHDkse3w at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de mí esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > From: Javier Jiménez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > < > CAMYTJrHu63MnEshPRtyHyiFG2fy3DZCGDGgS5sn3ig0TsV3zbg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de mí esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > *************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Tue Sep 24 21:40:34 2013 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:40:34 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inemilis no sihua, es como yo diría, pero cualquier otra variante debe ser correcto. Atte. Jacinto Acatecatl > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:00:02 -0500 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > From: John Sullivan > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > John > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > From: Javier Jiménez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de mí esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > From: Javier Jiménez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de mí esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Tue Sep 24 21:44:52 2013 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:44:52 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1, Pero no le gustan los animales: pampa amo kipaktia tekuanimeh 2. Aunque tenemos un perro: tikpia se itzcuitle(i)/ chichi. 3. El perro es de mi hija: itzcuintle iyaxkah no takóh/ chichi i axkah no ichpokatl, este último es para referisre a una hija adolecente. > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 12:00:02 -0500 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 3. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 (Frances Karttunen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:20:16 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > Message-ID: <8D08505F91F6B91-A40-A257 at webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > En realidad quiero que me digan como se escriben esas frases en Nahuatl. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 3. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 4. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 5. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9 at Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Juan: > > ¿De que habla usted? > > ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > Gracias, > > Michael > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > nohueltiuh ichichi > > > > > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > > > ihuan tehhuatl > > Michael > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920163740.3ydz39k7wwckkg0w at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request > from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a > Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? > > I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. > > :) > > Michael > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > > Juan: > > > > ¿De que habla usted? > > > > ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? > > > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > > > Gracias, > > > > Michael > > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > >> > >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > >> > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > >> > >> > >> Mah cualli ohtli > >> > >> juan Vazquez > >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920171655.7q5hkbe6pwkwkoo8 at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Mi espanol no es bueno. > > > > It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... > > nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' > > nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) > > so > > > nochpochtzin ichichi > > > Mille regrets, > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > >> > >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > > > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > nohueltiuh ichichi > > > >> > >> > >> Mah cualli ohtli > >> > > > > ihuan tehhuatl > > > > Michael > > > > > >> juan Vazquez > >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > *************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:30:56 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > Message-ID: <8D085077692F54D-198C-A345 at webmail-m274.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh icel oquichihuaya" > > "Todo el trabajo ella sola lo hacia" > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > Tlazocamati > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > Message-ID: <8D08371713A6059-1758-F3F3 at webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > thank you > > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > From: John Sullivan > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > John > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > From: Javier Jiménez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de mí esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > From: Javier Jiménez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de mí esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > *************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > *************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 10:13:00 -0400 > From: Frances Karttunen > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > Cc: nahuatl discussion list > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > Message-ID: <15BAD3F2-1C37-40A7-8E0B-174C34A4981E at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > It conveys the sense of "solamente" which reinforces "icel" "sola." > > Fran Karttunen > > > On Sep 21, 2013, at 1:30 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan > > yeh icel oquichihuaya" > > > > "Todo el > > trabajo ella sola lo hacia" > > > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > > > Tlazocamati > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Sep 25 03:32:34 2013 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 23:32:34 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 Message-ID: Quoting Frances Karttunen : > It conveys the sense of "solamente" which reinforces "icel" "sola." > > Fran Karttunen > > On Sep 21, 2013, at 1:30 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > >> In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh >> icel oquichihuaya" >> >> "Todo el trabajo >> ella sola lo hacia" >> >> What is the purpose of the word ZAN? >> >> Tlazocamati >> Nocnihuan, Since I see our get-togethers as discussions, not arguments, I nod at some contributions but sometimes maintain a certain dubit. Although I agreed in the main with Fran's comment, I kept hearing the echo of the discourse of a friend from Canoa as we walked here and there and even yon -- the phrase "zan yeh" kept popping up. So the three part phrase "zan yeh icel" made me check the co-occurrence of the pairs: zan yeh zan (i)cel Fran's comment is borne out both in checking co-occurrences in the Florentine and in checking the grammar of Richard Andrews. I thought y'all would find these notes of interest. Joe From Andrews: (results from the Florentine follow "*******") Andrews, p. 396 NNCs formed on the stem (n-o-ce*-l)-0-, (m-o-ce*-l)-0-, etc., are usually preceded by the adverbial particle zan, "only": zan noce*l = I am alone *** zan nocel = I am alone p. 401 The preterit predicate formed on the verbstem *(iyo-a*) can be used in an NNC whose predicate is translated as an adjective with a value similar to that of the adjectival nounstem (n-o-ce*-l)-0-, etc. (see § 40.2.3). The particle zan ordinarily precedes the NNC. The verb *(iyoa*) also occurs in an adverbial VNC (see § 44.3.11); see also § 44.8.1. zan niyoh = #n-0(iyo-h-0)[[-0# = I am alone. *** zan niyoh = niyoh[[ = I am alone. zan tiyoh = you are alone *** zan tiyoh = you are alone zan iyoh = he/she/it is alone *** zan iyoh = he/she/it is alone zan tiyohqueh = we are alone *** zan tiyohqueh = we are alone zan amiyohqueh = you (pl) are alone *** zan amiyohqueh = you pl are alone zan iyohqueh = they are alone *** zan iyohqueh = they are alone page ?? Zan noce*l o*nihua*llah. = I alone came. Only I came. *** Zan nocel onihuallah. = I alone came. Only I came. Zan toce*ltin o*tihua*llahqueh. = We alone came. Only we came. *** Zan toceltin otihuallahqueh. = We alone came. Only we came. ************************************** I found 40 tokens of the co-occurrence of "zan" and "-cel". Some of them turned out to be repetitions, so they show up as blank sentences. The repetitions are the result of a double occurrence of the pattern in the sentence. >8-) If you consult the text, either in Dibble and Anderson or in the facsimile and you find that my spelling doesn't match theirs, it is due to the fact that I use a double entry text with both the original and a regularized version. Using the original spelling would be an impossible task!! zan ce:l *** 40 1. in zan huel iceltzin itetzinco quiza in pepetlaca, in tlanextia, in ixquich teyollali, in ixquich tetlamachti, huel yehhuatzin zan huel iceltzin, tlachihuale. he from whom alone issueth that which illumineth, that which giveth light, that which comforteth; all teaching -- he alone, the creator. b.1 c.Ap p.56 f.3 2. 3. 4. 5. ce tlacatl tlatoani onnenca ipiltzin, zan huel icel ipiltzin, itelpoch, in cenca quitlazotlaya: there lived the son of a man who was ruler, his only son, his youth, whom he loved much. b.1 c.Ap p.58 f.3 6. in tlazotli tocaitl in teotl, in zan huel iceltzin iaxcatzin in dios, inic oquintocayotique in teixiptla in tetl, in cuahuitl. the precious name of god, which belongeth only to god, they thus gave as name to the representation in stone, in wood. b.1 c.Ap p.59 f.3 7. 8. ca zan moceltzin titeotl, ca zan moceltzin ticmopachilhuia, in ixquich in ilhuicac onoc, in tlalticpac, onoc: for thou only art god; for thou alone commandest all things which are in heaven, which are on earth. b.1 c.Ap p.61 f.3 9. 10. 11. 12. ca zan huel ce, in zan huel iceltzin, teyocoyani, ipalnemoani, nohuian, tlatoani: there is only one, the only creator by whom we live, ruler everywhere. b.1 c.Ap p.63 f.4 13. 14. q. n. toteucyoe, diose, ca zan moceltzin titeotl, titlatoani, that is to say,"o our lord god, thou alone art god, thou art ruler. b.1 c.Ap p.63 f.4 15. zan moceltzin momactzinco ca, in ixquich ittalo, in amo ittalo. in thy hand alone are all things visible [and] invisible. b.1 c.Ap p.63 f.4 16. zan moceltzin ticmotemaquilia. thou alone givest them. b.1 c.Ap p.67 f.4 17. ca zan huel iceltzin techmomaquilia, in tixquichti cemanahuac titlaca in yehhuatl, quiahuitl, inic mochihua in ixquich tonacayotl: for, indeed, only he himself giveth all of us men on earth this rain, wherewith is made all our sustenance. b.1 c.Ap p.68 f.4 18. in teotl, zan huel iceltzin ineixcahuilaxcatzin, in dios in teyocoyani, in ipalnemoani. the [name] god is exclusive to him himself, god the creator through whom there is life. b.1 c.Ap p.69 f.4 19. amo quimatia, ca zan huel iceltzin in ipalnemoani toteucyo dios, motepielia, motemanahuilia: they knew not that only he alone through whom there is life watcheth over men, defendeth men. b.1 c.Ap p.70 f.4 20. inin ca huel ic neci, ca zan iceltzin toteucyo dios, motepalehuiliani, motemanahuiliani: this is plain, that only our lord god himself customarily aideth men, customarily defendeth men. b.1 c.Ap p.70 f.4 21. auh ca monequi, zan huel iceltzin notzaloz, tlatlauhtiloz; in icuac itla techtequipachoa. and it is required that only he himself be called upon, be supplicated, when anything afflicteth us. b.1 c.Ap p.70 f.4 22. auh in axcan, ma huel xicmatican, zan huel iceltzin, icel teotl dios, motepatiliani, moteyolitiliani, but now, know well that only he alone, the true god, is the healer of men, the giver of life to men. b.1 c.Ap p.73 f.05 23. 24. in icuac itla topan mochihua, in tecoco, in tetolini, zan huel iceltzin, tlatlauhtiloz, temoloz, iuh ca in teotlatolli, in tlacpac omito. when something befalleth us -- pain, affliction -- he alone may be sought, prayed to, as is the word of god, as hath been said above. b.1 c.Ap p.73 f.05 25. za icel quiticac in teooctli: only he alone stood drinking the sacred pulque. b.2 c.38 p.207 f.13 26. auh macihuin zan icel motenehua, ca oncan quincemilnamiquia, in totochti, oocti, and although only he alone was named, yet at that time they remembered all the wine gods, who became the wine. b.4 c.5 p.17 f.2 27. intla ye aca axixmiqui, in zan icel yoaltica quiza: in ahzo metztona, anozo tlayohua: ihcuac quimottitia: if someone wished to urinate, and went forth quite alone at night, when, perhaps, the moon shone or it was dark, then they appeared to him. b.5 c.13 p.179 f.2 28. ca zan iceltzin huel oncan motlanecuiltia in tloque nahuaque, in titlacahuan: he alone, he who pervadeth all, titlacauan, may smell that place. b.5 c.3a p.184 f.2 29. za icel in itlan ca ticitl: tlein mach ic tlatlatlauhtitica, only the midwife was by her, because she was offering prayers. b.6 c.28 p.160 f.13 30. auh in aquin tachcauhchiuhtiaz, amo zan icel in quinonotzaya, in quicaquia tlatolli: mochtin in quinhuicaz, in quezquintin moyolehua: and he who was to become leader summoned not only those who heard the discourse; he would take all -- as many as wished [to go]. b.9 c.3 p.14 f.2 31. auh inic nemi, zan in ceceltin in nemi: amo oomentin momana, and thus they lived; each couple lived alone, not two couples together. b.10 c.29 p.172 f.10 32. auh zan icel, in cenca huel quilhuichihuiliaya in yocippa: in ihcuac quilhuiquixtiliaya, quitoa totopainalo, yocippa totoco, and only for this one did they observe the principal feast day; to iocippa, when they celebrated a feast for him, they said: "totopainalo, iocippa totoco." b.10 c.29 p.181 f.11 33. auh inic nemi: amo zan icel nemi, onca inamic: and thus does it live: not just by itself does it live; its mate is there. b.11 c.5 p.76 f.8 34. inic mitoa icel azcatl, zan icel in nenemi, amo ontemantinemi, amo no yeheteyetinemi, iuhquin oc cequin azcame, it is called "lone ant" because it goes about only alone; it does not go about in pairs, nor in threes, like the other ants. b.11 c.5 p.90 f.9 35. 36. in ochicahuaque: no tecuani, no iztlaque, no iuhquin tlatlahuic azcatl, zan huel no iuhqui in icel azcatl. when mature, they are also stingers, also venomous, also like the red ant, also something like the lone ant. b.11 c.5 p.90 f.9 37. auh inic nemi: amo huel icel nemi, zan ololiuhtinemi: and thus does it live: it cannot travel alone, but in a swarm. b.11 c.5 p.91 f.9 38. auh amo zan icel in nemi, amo zan centeyetinemi: mochipa onteme yetinemi, concahuitinemi in quimimilotinemi. and not alone does it go, not only one travels; they always travel in twos; they go sharing it as they go rolling it together. b.11 c.5 p.93 f.10 39. 40. zan icel moquetza in iamatlapal its leaves are set on only singly. b.11 c.7 p.155 f.15 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Norbert.Francis at nau.edu Wed Sep 25 18:09:14 2013 From: Norbert.Francis at nau.edu (Norbert Francis) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 18:09:14 +0000 Subject: Announcement Message-ID: TV Malintzin, from Puebla and Tlaxcala states, announces the inauguration of a series of short video programs featuring the oral tradition of the Nahuatl-speaking communities from this region of Mexico. The videos are available at: http://www.youtube.com/user/TVMalintzin. Mainly in Nahuatl, the series currently includes traditional narrative and oral history. Future programs are planned that will incorporate poetry and other genres of interest to members of the communities and to investigators and students of the Nahuatl language and culture. For more information and to become a Friend of TV Malintzin, go to: https://www.facebook.com/pages/TV-Malintzin/609100105778209. The mission of TV Malintzin consists in the compilation and dissemination of this material of literary and artistic merit, founded over hundreds of years of creative language expression, now in gradual decline and likely in the future to be in danger of significant erosion in the highland communities of Puebla and Tlaxcala, along with the Nahuatl language itself. The following programs are now available: (1) Bienvenida al canal TV Malintzin (2) Entrevista con el Mtro. Carmen Zepeda: Año 1923 (in Spanish) (3) In tomin (4) Coyotl huan Tlacuatl (5) In Pillo (primera versión) (6) Tesoro escondido de la Revolución (7) Quehaceres cuando era niña (8) Historia de lo que pasó después de la matanza de 1968 (9) La señora y su amante (10) El hombre que no quería poner ofrenda (11) El cielo emborregado (12) Historias de Chalma (13) La mujer nahual (14) In Pillo (segunda versión) (15) El nevero de la Malintzin (16) El hombre que no creía en las mujeres piedra encantadoras (17) El compadre de la muerte (18) Pastorela: La adoración de los reyes _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Thu Sep 26 18:56:24 2013 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 13:56:24 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Estimados amigos del Foro, en muy usual encontrarse, con personas interesadas en el náhuatl que quieren aprender y conocerlo con mayor profundidad(lo cual me da mucha alegría) pero a la hora de pretender traducir frases, o conceptos del español al Náhuatl, siempre se encuentran con un el desencanto de que al armarlo o traducirlo, normalmente no coincide con lo que quieren decir, y así como en otros idiomas, yo recomiendo se familiaricen con los conceptos y frases en náhuatl y a partir de ahí intentar traducir, el presente comentario no es con el afán de generar polémica ni ofender a ningún compañero del foro, solo es un humilde comentario. Le deseo excelente tarde. xitikan kuale noknihuan. ontlahkuilo: Jacinto Acatecatl Namictle. > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 2 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 18:13:13 -0500 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) > 2. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (Jacinto Acatecatl) > 3. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 (Jacinto Acatecatl) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 15:24:55 -0500 > From: Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > Cc: Nahuat-lNahuat-l > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Saludos Juan, > Primero que nada es un muy buen enunciado en mexicano. Por tanto se pueden > hacer varias traducciones al español: > 1. "Nada más ella solita era la que hacía todo el trabajo" > 2. "Todo el trabajo existente, lo hacía ella solita y nadie más" > 3. "Todo ese trabajo, nomás lo hacía ella solita sin ayuda de nadie". > El problema de esta frase es que una traducción más literal suena mal en > español pues se trata de un enunciado con tópico inicial seguido de foco > delimitado y especificado por ZAN > Así, en inglés se podría decir: > As for the whole work, she was the only one who carried it out. > Te voy a poner un ejemplo en el mexicano de Cuetzalan. Yn matahcihuat zah > tahcoyohuan in neci. Zayuh tahuananih in quitah. Tacah tihuinti xiauh > mochantzinco mah ayamo tahcoyohuan. Yn matahcihuat quinhuica ohuihcan zayuh > in ïn tahuananih, ïn tacah-cihuatohtocanih tahcoyohualquizah. > Sonaría en español así: La matlahcihuatl solamente se aparece a media > noche. Sólo pueden verla los borrachos. Si te emborrachas vete a tu casa > antes de la media noche. La matlacihuatl se lleva a lugares horribles sólo > a los borrachos y mujeriegos que salen a la media noche. > > Nimitzyolmahtapalohua > > Tomas Amaya > > > 2013/9/21 > > > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh icel > > oquichihuaya" > > > > "Todo el trabajo > > ella sola lo hacia" > > > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > > > Tlazocamati > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nahuatl-request > > To: nahuatl > > Sent: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > Message-ID: <8D08371713A6059-1758-F3F3 at webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > thank you > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nahuatl-request > > To: nahuatl > > Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > > From: John Sullivan > > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > > John > > > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > > From: Javier Jiménez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > < > > CAMYTJrE8a7LhczSpA8UOUcD7AEp67fzfMO9zEER441dHDkse3w at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de mí esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > > From: Javier Jiménez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > < > > CAMYTJrHu63MnEshPRtyHyiFG2fy3DZCGDGgS5sn3ig0TsV3zbg at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de mí esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > *************************************** > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > *************************************** > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:40:34 -0500 > From: Jacinto Acatecatl > To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Inemilis no sihua, es como yo diría, pero cualquier otra variante debe ser correcto. > Atte. > Jacinto Acatecatl > > > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:00:02 -0500 > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > > From: John Sullivan > > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > > John > > > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > > From: Javier Jiménez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de mí esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > > From: Javier Jiménez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de mí esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > *************************************** > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:44:52 -0500 > From: Jacinto Acatecatl > To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales: pampa amo kipaktia tekuanimeh > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro: tikpia se itzcuitle(i)/ chichi. > > 3. El perro es de mi hija: itzcuintle iyaxkah no takóh/ chichi i axkah no ichpokatl, este último es para referisre a una hija adolecente. > > > > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 12:00:02 -0500 > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 2. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 3. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 (Frances Karttunen) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:20:16 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > > Message-ID: <8D08505F91F6B91-A40-A257 at webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > > En realidad quiero que me digan como se escriben esas frases en Nahuatl. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nahuatl-request > > To: nahuatl > > Sent: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 10:00 am > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > > > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 2. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > 3. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > 4. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > 5. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > > Message-ID: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9 at Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > > Message-ID: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > Juan: > > > > ¿De que habla usted? > > > > ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? > > > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > > > Gracias, > > > > Michael > > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > > > > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > > Message-ID: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > > > > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > > > > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > nohueltiuh ichichi > > > > > > > > > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > > > > > > ihuan tehhuatl > > > > Michael > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > > Message-ID: <20130920163740.3ydz39k7wwckkg0w at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request > > from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a > > Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? > > > > I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. > > > > :) > > > > Michael > > > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > > > > Juan: > > > > > > ¿De que habla usted? > > > > > > ¿Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en español para usted? > > > > > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > > > > > Gracias, > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > >> > > >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > >> > > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > >> > > >> > > >> Mah cualli ohtli > > >> > > >> juan Vazquez > > >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > > Message-ID: <20130920171655.7q5hkbe6pwkwkoo8 at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > Mi espanol no es bueno. > > > > > > > > It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... > > > > nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' > > > > nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) > > > > so > > > > > > nochpochtzin ichichi > > > > > > Mille regrets, > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > >> > > >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > > > > > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > > > nohueltiuh ichichi > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Mah cualli ohtli > > >> > > > > > > ihuan tehhuatl > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > >> juan Vazquez > > >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > > *************************************** > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:30:56 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > Message-ID: <8D085077692F54D-198C-A345 at webmail-m274.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh icel oquichihuaya" > > > > "Todo el trabajo ella sola lo hacia" > > > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > > > Tlazocamati > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nahuatl-request > > To: nahuatl > > Sent: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > Message-ID: <8D08371713A6059-1758-F3F3 at webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > thank you > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nahuatl-request > > To: nahuatl > > Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jiménez) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > > From: John Sullivan > > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > > John > > > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > > From: Javier Jiménez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de mí esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > > From: Javier Jiménez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Náhuatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, México > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de mí esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > *************************************** > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > *************************************** > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 10:13:00 -0400 > > From: Frances Karttunen > > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > Cc: nahuatl discussion list > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > Message-ID: <15BAD3F2-1C37-40A7-8E0B-174C34A4981E at comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > > It conveys the sense of "solamente" which reinforces "icel" "sola." > > > > Fran Karttunen > > > > > > On Sep 21, 2013, at 1:30 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan > > > yeh icel oquichihuaya" > > > > > > "Todo el > > > trabajo ella sola lo hacia" > > > > > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > > > > > Tlazocamati > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 > > *************************************** > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 2 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Thu Sep 26 19:06:04 2013 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 14:06:04 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for sharing, mail, I'm glad ara spaces have to be kept Nahuatl culture, I will watch the channel and I'm glad to collaborate disposisión if required at any time. Jacinto Acatecatl N. Gracias por compartir, el correo, me da gusto que se habran espacios ara la cultura Náhuatl, estaré atento al canal y con mucho gusto estoy en disposisión para colaborar si así se requiere en cualquier momento. Jacinto Acatecatl N. > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 4 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 12:00:02 -0500 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Announcement (Norbert Francis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 18:09:14 +0000 > From: Norbert Francis > To: "Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Announcement > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > TV Malintzin, from Puebla and Tlaxcala states, announces the inauguration of a series of short video programs featuring the oral tradition of the Nahuatl-speaking communities from this region of Mexico. The videos are available at: http://www.youtube.com/user/TVMalintzin. Mainly in Nahuatl, the series currently includes traditional narrative and oral history. Future programs are planned that will incorporate poetry and other genres of interest to members of the communities and to investigators and students of the Nahuatl language and culture. For more information and to become a Friend of TV Malintzin, go to: > https://www.facebook.com/pages/TV-Malintzin/609100105778209. The mission of TV Malintzin consists in the compilation and dissemination of this material of literary and artistic merit, founded over hundreds of years of creative language expression, now in gradual decline and likely in the future to be in danger of significant erosion in the highland communities of Puebla and Tlaxcala, along with the Nahuatl language itself. > The following programs are now available: > (1) Bienvenida al canal TV Malintzin > (2) Entrevista con el Mtro. Carmen Zepeda: Año 1923 (in Spanish) > (3) In tomin > (4) Coyotl huan Tlacuatl > (5) In Pillo (primera versión) > (6) Tesoro escondido de la Revolución > (7) Quehaceres cuando era niña > (8) Historia de lo que pasó después de la matanza de 1968 > (9) La señora y su amante > (10) El hombre que no quería poner ofrenda > (11) El cielo emborregado > (12) Historias de Chalma > (13) La mujer nahual > (14) In Pillo (segunda versión) > (15) El nevero de la Malintzin > (16) El hombre que no creía en las mujeres piedra encantadoras > (17) El compadre de la muerte > (18) Pastorela: La adoración de los reyes > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 4 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Sep 1 04:13:30 2013 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 23:13:30 -0500 Subject: Totlahtol Message-ID: Piyali notequixpoyohuan, "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and other collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the following link https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15911797/malintzin_itlahtol.pdf or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last 500 years. Have fun! John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ Nahuatl Language Institute, Yale University; Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales University of Warsaw; Professor of Nahua language and culture Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas; Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology Tacuba 152, int. 43 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 Mexico Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 idiez at me.com www.macehualli.org _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 1 16:02:52 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 12:02:52 -0400 Subject: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English, and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it. Best, Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and other > collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all > variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are > standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We > hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual > works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the > hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously > standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, > and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the > eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical > standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, > "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by > Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now > being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in > educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the > following link > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15911797/malintzin_itlahtol.pdf > or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the > book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be > able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last > 500 years. Have fun! > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and > Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ Nahuatl Language Institute, > Yale University; > Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales > University of Warsaw; > Professor of Nahua language and culture > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas; > Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > Tacuba 152, int. 43 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > Mexico > Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 > idiez at me.com > www.macehualli.org > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rgyalrongskad at gmail.com Sun Sep 1 19:35:46 2013 From: rgyalrongskad at gmail.com (Guillaume Jacques) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 21:35:46 +0200 Subject: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <20130901120252.w92layfhwcwk0g08@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its typeability, especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry to say that using an orthography that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to Classical Nahuatl. Guillaume Jacques 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > John, > > I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon > publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English, > and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of > Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor > insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of > Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it. > > Best, > > Michael > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > > Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >> "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and >> other >> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all >> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are >> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We >> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual >> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the >> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously >> standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, >> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the >> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical >> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, >> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by >> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now >> being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in >> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the >> following link >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.**com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf >> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the >> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be >> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last >> 500 years. Have fun! >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and >> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ Nahuatl Language Institute, >> Yale University; >> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales >> University of Warsaw; >> Professor of Nahua language and culture >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas; >> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >> Centro Hist?rico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> Mexico >> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl > -- Guillaume Jacques CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Sun Sep 1 21:29:28 2013 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 14:29:28 -0700 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378070909.5045.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Michael Swanton To: Guillaume Jacques ; "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it having "little value" to be utterly baffling. Michael Swanton ________________________________ From: Guillaume Jacques To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its typeability, especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry to say that using an orthography that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to Classical Nahuatl. Guillaume Jacques 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > John, > > I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon > publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English, > and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of > Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor > insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of > Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it. > > Best, > > Michael > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > >? Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >>? ? ? ? "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and >> other >> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all >> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are >> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We >> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual >> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the >> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously >> standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, >> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the >> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical >> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, >> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by >> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now >> being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in >> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the >> following link >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.**com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf >> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the >> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be >> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last >> 500 years. Have fun! >> John >> >> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and >> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ Nahuatl Language Institute, >> Yale University; >> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales >> University of Warsaw; >> Professor of Nahua language and culture >> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas; >> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >> Centro Hist?rico >> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >> Mexico >> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 >> idiez at me.com >> www.macehualli.org >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl > -- Guillaume Jacques CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Sep 2 05:33:23 2013 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (BT Yahoo!) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 06:33:23 +0100 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378070968.70521.YahooMailNeo@web142402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Michael Swanton wrote:- > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used during the colonial period. > We owe a great deal of our understanding of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it having "little value" to be utterly baffling. An inconvenience with Spanish-influenced classical Nahuatl spelling is that how to spell the sounds [k] and [s] changes if they are followed by [i] or [e] or [y]. That is a carry-over from phonetic changes that happened to the sounds [k] and [g] and [kw] in Europe in Classical Latin as it changed into Vulgar Latin and then into early Spanish (and Italian and French etc); those sound changes did not happen in Nahuatl. Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 2 14:59:15 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 10:59:15 -0400 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378070968.70521.YahooMailNeo@web142402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Carochi has served very well. No question. However, as far I as I can tell, only Carochi and Launey use Carochi's orthographic system. If you look around, that orthography is not where the modern study of the language is going. That's what I meant by my "utterly baffling" thought. I explained also in a letter to Mr. Guillaume that some rather "baffling" ideas about Nahuatl grammar are found in Launey, and I'm confident I didn't find all of the mistakes. In the end, I would recommend having a copy of Launey on your shelf, but not as the sole source of your Nahuatl knowledge, and certainly not as a book used in a classroom unless the professor is knowledgeable enough to 1) catch Launey's errors and 2) bring enormous amounts of material written in the non-Carochi orthographic system so that students can be in the flow of modern study. Best, Michael Quoting Michael Swanton : > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Michael Swanton > To: Guillaume Jacques ; > "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding > of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it > having "little value" to be utterly baffling. > > Michael Swanton > > > > ________________________________ > From: Guillaume Jacques > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi > orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its typeability, > especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to > represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry to say that using an orthography > that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. > Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to > Classical Nahuatl. > > > Guillaume Jacques > > > 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > > >> John, >> >> I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon >> publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English, >> and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of >> Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor >> insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of >> Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it. >> >> Best, >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting John Sullivan : >> >> ? Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >>> ? ? ? ? "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and >>> > other >>> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all >>> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are >>> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We >>> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual >>> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the >>> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously >>> standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, >>> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the >>> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical >>> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, >>> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by >>> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now >>> > being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in >>> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the >>> following link >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.**com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf >>> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the >>> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be >>> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last >>> 500 years. Have fun! >>> John >>> >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >>> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and >>> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ > Nahuatl Language Institute, >>> Yale University; >>> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales >>> University of Warsaw; >>> Professor of Nahua language and culture >>> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas; >>> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >>> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >>> Centro Hist?rico >>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >>> Mexico >>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >>> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >>> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 >>> idiez at me.com >>> www.macehualli.org >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > -- > Guillaume Jacques > CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO > http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques > http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ > http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 15:40:02 2013 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 08:40:02 -0700 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378100003.75362.YahooMailNeo@web186103.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am not sure what is inconvenient about a pair of simple, unambiguous writing conventions. Not only have some of the world's most widely written languages used such conventions without difficulty, but Nahuatl writers have also used them successfully for centuries. Orthographies and phonological representations are very different things. One would be hard pressed to find an example of a writing system in one language that has not been influenced by another. I think people generally understand and accept that writing conventions reflect history. That history not only includes earlier sound changes, but also contact. Today, English speakers write with Latin letters (and not runes, ogham or cuneiform) because of their history. Poles write with Latin letters instead of Cyrillic for a similar reason. Persian speakers today write with a script derived from Arabic (and not Pahlavi, cuneiform or Sanskrit), which they in turn passed on to Urdu. Etc. Doubtlessly such considerations of potential ambiguity and history informed Andrews, Campbell et al. in their pedagogic/philological orthography, since it makes use of these conventions. However, I am at a loss to explain how the "Carochi orthography", from which the proposal was derived, could possibly be qualified as being of little value. On the contrary, it has been exceedingly valuable for philological and linguistic investigation. Moreover, Launey's pedagogic use of it to teach the grammar of the old texts strikes me as quite sound, much in the tradition of the macron in Latin grammars or the overdot to indicate palatalization in Old English ones. I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. ________________________________ From: BT Yahoo! To: Nahuat-L Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol Michael Swanton wrote:- > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used during the colonial period. > We owe a great deal of our understanding of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it having "little value" to be utterly baffling. An inconvenience with Spanish-influenced classical Nahuatl spelling is that how to spell the sounds [k] and [s] changes if they are followed by [i] or [e] or [y]. That is a carry-over from phonetic changes that happened to the sounds [k] and [g] and [kw] in Europe in Classical Latin as it changed into Vulgar Latin and then into early Spanish (and Italian and French etc); those sound changes did not happen in Nahuatl. Citlalyani. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From a.appleyard at btinternet.com Mon Sep 2 15:53:15 2013 From: a.appleyard at btinternet.com (BT Yahoo!) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 16:53:15 +0100 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378136402.54219.YahooMailNeo@web142402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ________________________________ ?Michael Swanton wrote:- > I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. Sorry: I meant [j] (the sound of English "y" in "yet" and Spanish "y" in "yo"). _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Mon Sep 2 17:56:53 2013 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 13:56:53 -0400 Subject: Carochi's notation Message-ID: We are deeply indebted to Carochi for revealing, more than any other scholar of Nahuatl, the systematic phonology of the language. Without understanding distinctive vowel length and the function of the glottal stop as a segmental consonant (or--in many regional variants-- the reflexes of these two things), Nahuatl morphology seems arbitrary where it is, in fact, predictable. The problems with Carochi's notation are the following: 1. Marking long vowels with macrons and (some) short vowels with an accent mark is redundant. If a vowel is not long, then it is short. (To my knowledge, only Estonian has a three-way vowel-length contrast of over-long, half-long, and short.) In Nahuatl it is sufficient to mark the long vowels long. 2. Marking the presence of a glottal stop with a diacritic over the preceding vowel misleads people into the belief that it is not a consonantal segment but some quality of the vowel. Granted, a vowel followed by a glottal stop does have a different quality from one not followed by a glottal stop. (Long vowels shorten, all vowels reflect an anticipatory constriction of the glottis.) What is more, Carochi uses different diacritics for word-final glottal stop and for all others. Again, word-final glottal stop may sound different from a glottal stop within a word, but that difference is entirely predictable. In the systematic phonology of the language, the glottal stop (or its reflex in variant forms of the language) is a consonant just as much as /p/ and /t/, so it is best written with a letter rather than as a diacritic. 3. The other issue that has been brought up about the writing of /k/ as c or qu depending on context, and likewise /s/ as c/? or z depending on context, is derived from Spanish orthography. An example of a subsequent sound change in Spanish happening without effect on Nahuatl orthography is the change (for Spanish but not for Nahuatl) of the sound represented by x. It has been an issue of long-standing whether Nahuatl should be better written with k, s, and w. To do so makes Nahuatl look "less Spanish," but it also renders the vast body of written Nahuatl less accessible to those who use the k/s/w notation. Nobody, to my knowledge, has proposed doing away with the digraphs tl, tz, and ch, so obviously the push has never been to the full realization of "one sound/one symbol." I gave all this long thought when embarking on how to represent the canonical forms in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, and I came down on the side of J. Richard Andrews. Back then, Una Canger advised me, "Whatever you choose will be OK, just as long as you tell people clearly what it is you are doing." In the introduction to the dictionary I did tell users what I was doing and why. But I sought to present information in the least misleading and the most serviceable form possible, and that is what I came up with, following Dick Andrews' example. Frances Karttunen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mwswanton at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 19:52:45 2013 From: mwswanton at yahoo.com (Michael Swanton) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 12:52:45 -0700 Subject: Fw: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378151527.52505.YahooMailNeo@web142401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Michael Swanton To: Michael McCafferty ; Nahuat-L Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol Michael McCafferty, I believe you are conflating different issues. One?s choice of orthography is different from erroneous grammatical interpretations. Regardless of what orthography one uses, it is possible to make mistakes in grammar, etymology and translation. This makes your dismissal of Launey?s Introduction based on erroneous, but unspecified, grammatical interpretations seem gratuitous when addressing a question about orthography. It is also, I believe, quite mistaken. I have taught Classical Nahuatl at Leiden University for several years before moving to Mexico and I found the French version of the Introduction to be quite valuable. Una Canger has used the Introduction for many years in her classes in Denmark. While all works can be improved?there are certainly some errata that need to be noted (especially in the translated versions of his book) and I have different interpretations of certain grammatical phenomena (particularly the passive)?Launey?s Introduction for me and many others continues to be the best, most accessible and overall reliable initiation to the language. [Full disclosure: I studied with Launey in Paris years ago]. Returning to the issue of orthography, Launey?s pedagogic use of the so-called Jesuit tradition (attested in Carochi, the Bancroft MS, Aldama y Guevara and to some extent in Rinc?n and Clavijero) strikes me as quite sound. When beginning Latin, one carefully learns to write the macrons in order to learn the grammar, meter and pronunciation even though they don?t appear in any classical texts. Eventually then, such annotations are disposed of once the learner has assimilated them. The same applies when learning Old English where not only are macrons added, but many authors add an overdot to and to indicate palatal as opposed to velar articulation. By the same token, when beginning Classical Hebrew, it is common to learn the texts with niqqud. In other words, there is a long practice?in reality going back to the Middle Ages?of adding diacritics to classical orthographies and texts to facilitate language learning. We may want to view Carochi?s orthography as part of this tradition. The advantage of this approach is that relevant information can be added to the text with minimal modification of the original. The goal then is to facilitate access to the original texts, not to retranscribe them. In my advanced level classes, we would take a text (even ones with such divergent orthographies as the Florentine Codex or Olmos) and directly mark long vowels and glottalization using Carochi?s diacritics without retranscribing. This made for a good exercise. Andrews? orthography is different. It requires retranscription of texts because of its innovative use of to indicate glottalization. There is nothing wrong with that; it is just a slightly different approach to teaching the classical language. Indeed, there are some good reasons to do so (p.e. emphasizing the complementary distribution of Carochi?s grave and circumflex diacritics). And, even though it was not designed for such purposes, Andrews? orthography would make for a fine practical orthography should the Nahua choose to adopt it. I do however disagree with your assertion that Andrews?s orthography characterizes the ?modern study? of Nahuatl. Such an assertion would exclude many obligatory references for the language (Canger, Peralta, L. Campbell, Kaufman, Dakin, Lastra?). Indeed, what we see is that Andrew?s orthography is primarily used among certain scholars, generally American and generally more involved in lexicographic or philological endeavors (J. Campbell, Karttunen, Wright, Sullivan, Amith, Wimmer?and I have used it too in one article where I was making a comparative philological argument). As much as I respect and admire the work of these other scholars, I am sure they would be among the first to acknowledge that there are many important modern studies of Nahuatl that do not use Andrews? orthography. The simple fact is that people write Nahuatl in different ways depending on their goal and on their intended audience, and any serious student of Nahuatl should be able to shift easily from one representational system to another. It would be most unfortunate if something as trivial as the use of an be taken as an emblem as to one?s membership ?in the flow of modern study?. Regardless of orthography, any Nahuatl speaker who writes his language is making a contribution to bring the language into a new social space. Regardless of orthography, any scholar who makes a good argument is contributing to Nahuatl language studies. Regardless of orthography, any teacher who gets his students interested in Nahuatl and sets them on a path to learning more is broadening the discipline and dignifying the profound linguistic knowledge that Nahuatl speakers, past and present, have. Regards, Michael Swanton ________________________________ From: Michael McCafferty To: Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol Carochi has served very well. No question. However, as far I as I can tell, only Carochi and Launey use Carochi's orthographic system. If you look around, that orthography is not where the modern study of the language is going. That's what I meant by my "utterly baffling" thought. I explained also in a letter to Mr. Guillaume that some rather "baffling" ideas about Nahuatl grammar are found in Launey, and I'm confident I didn't find all of the mistakes. In the end, I would recommend having a copy of Launey on your shelf, but not as the sole source of your Nahuatl knowledge, and certainly not as a book used in a classroom unless the professor is knowledgeable enough to 1) catch Launey's errors and 2) bring enormous amounts of material written in the non-Carochi orthographic system so that students can be in the flow of modern study. Best, Michael Quoting Michael Swanton : > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Michael Swanton > To: Guillaume Jacques ; > "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding > of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it > having "little value" to be utterly baffling. > > Michael Swanton > > > > ________________________________ > From: Guillaume Jacques > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi > orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its typeability, > especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to > represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry to say that using an orthography > that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. > Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to > Classical Nahuatl. > > > Guillaume Jacques > > > 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > > >> John, >> >> I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon >> publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English, >> and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of >> Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor >> insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of >> Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it. >> >> Best, >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting John Sullivan : >> >> ? Piyali notequixpoyohuan, >>> ? ? ? ?? "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and >>> > other >>> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all >>> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are >>> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We >>> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual >>> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the >>> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously >>> standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time, >>> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the >>> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical >>> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, >>> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by >>> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now >>> > being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in >>> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the >>> following link >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.**com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf >>> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the >>> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be >>> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last >>> 500 years. Have fun! >>> John >>> >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. >>> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and >>> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ > Nahuatl Language Institute, >>> Yale University; >>> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales >>> University of Warsaw; >>> Professor of Nahua language and culture >>> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas; >>> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology >>> Tacuba 152, int. 43 >>> Centro Hist?rico >>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >>> Mexico >>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 >>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 >>> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 >>> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 >>> idiez at me.com >>> www.macehualli.org >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > -- > Guillaume Jacques > CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO > http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques > http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ > http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 2 22:25:37 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 18:25:37 -0400 Subject: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378151527.52505.YahooMailNeo@web142401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting Michael Swanton : > Michael McCafferty, > I believe you are conflating different issues. One?s choice of > orthography is different from erroneous grammatical interpretations. > Regardless of what orthography one uses, it is possible to make > mistakes in grammar, etymology and translation. This makes your > dismissal of Launey?s Introduction based on erroneous, but > unspecified, grammatical interpretations seem gratuitous when > addressing a question about orthography. Sorry. I didn't mean to imply gratuity. I meant to say that both his orthography and his grammar misinterpretations both detracted from the English translation of his Nahuatl grammar, which I presume is going to be used for the most part by English-speaking students, which probably includes Americans, I imagine. > > It is also, I believe, quite mistaken. I have taught Classical > Nahuatl at Leiden University for several years before moving to > Mexico and I found the French version of the Introduction to be quite > valuable. Una Canger has used the Introduction for many years in her > classes in Denmark. While all works can be improved?there are > certainly some errata that need to be noted (especially in the > translated versions of his book) and I have different interpretations > of certain grammatical phenomena (particularly the passive)?Launey?s > Introduction for me and many others continues to be the best, most > accessible and overall reliable initiation to the language. [Full > disclosure: I studied with Launey in Paris years ago]. The problem is that Launey had the book translated into English but did not vet it for its thirty-year-old errors, some of which are quite shocking, as you will see when the review appears. He simply handed the thing over to his translator, who added some items of his own, and wiped his hands of the whole affair. So, what Launey has done is given the world an out-of-date grammar. Launey's English translation of his Nahuatl grammar is itself a historical document as it stands today. Michael McCafferty _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Mon Sep 2 22:49:41 2013 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 18:49:41 -0400 Subject: Fw: Fw: Totlahtol In-Reply-To: <1378151565.37770.YahooMailNeo@web142402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 2, 2013, at 3:52 PM, Michael Swanton wrote: > ? In my advanced level classes, we would take a text (even ones > with such divergent orthographies as the Florentine Codex or Olmos) > and directly mark long vowels and glottalization using Carochi?s > diacritics?. If one thinks of "saltillo" as glottalization of vowels, one misses the point that stems that end in saltillo behave as stems that end in consonants, not as stems that end in vowels. Frances Karttunen _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 03:16:30 2013 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 23:16:30 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 309, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Listeros, I am very happy that a there is now a publishing venture aiming to produce literature in Nahuatl for Nahuatl speakers - this is of immense value for speakers and linguists alike. Both congratulations and thanks and thanks are in order with to John and Justyna for starting this program and to Refugio for his excellent work. This notwithstanding I am highly critical of the reasoning behind the decision to champion a single orthographic standard, which from my point of view is both unnecessary and possibly detrimental. The reason it is unnecessary is that Nahuatl speakers since the 16th century have been able to communicate fine in writing without a standardized orthography (just like Shakespeare was able to write his plays without one). I know Nahuatl speakers who use a Carochi style writing system on facebook. And I know Nahuatl speakers who write using only ad hoc writing systems that to me is every bit as frustrating to read as the texts written by the least educated scribes of the 16th century, with arbitrary word boundaries and completely inconsistent representation of phonemes. But they get their points across to each other just fine. The main function of standardization is and has always been, not ease of communication, but the construction of norms, and normalcy, and by extension the construction of difference, hierarchy and power. The reason I think standardization is possibly linguistically (and socially) detrimental is because the process of standardization is inevitably also a political process that leads to the glossing over and eventual erasure of linguistic diversity (just a the introduction of an English standard orthography led to a political process that marginalized those dialects of English that became "non-standard"). Erasure both in the sense that some linguistic differences are rendered u=invisible to future scholars, but also in the sense that some varieties and the features their speakers feel characterize them are rendered invisible, as some varieties are given priority in the construction of a norm. In the discussion of Launey's-Carochi's orthography one point is forgotten, namely that Carochi chose to represent the glottal stop with a diacritic because that reflected something about his understanding of Tenochca Nahuatl phonology prosody. He did not consider the glottal stop to be a segment, but a suprasegmental feature of a syllable - which was supported by the fact that glottal stop and vowel length is in complementary distribution in Nahuatl. He also chose it because he was describing a language which did not have the phone [h], but a glottal stop. Some dialects have the phone [h] others have [?] - this difference is made invisible by the choice to represent both sounds with the symbol . Nahuatl is not one thing, it is many. There are varieties in which exists as a separate phoneme and varieties in which it doesn't, there are varieties in which /b/ is phonemic and others in which it isn't, varieties that distinguish vowel length others that don't, some varieties that have 6 vowels others that have five, et cetera. These differences (and perhaps even more so the substantial morphological and syntactic differences among varieties) are not simply unfortunate obstacles for effective communication between speakers of different varieties, but are in fact the very linguistic and cultural wealth that we should strive to preserve and respect. best wishes, Magnus On 2 September 2013 15:58, wrote: > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fw: Totlahtol (Michael Swanton) > 2. Re: Fw: Totlahtol (BT Yahoo!) > 3. Carochi's notation (Frances Karttunen) > 4. Fw: Fw: Totlahtol (Michael Swanton) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Michael Swanton > To: BT Yahoo! , Nahuat-L < > nahuatl at LISTS.FAMSI.ORG> > Cc: > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 08:40:02 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > I am not sure what is inconvenient about a pair of simple, unambiguous > writing conventions. Not only have some of the world's most widely written > languages used such conventions without difficulty, but Nahuatl writers > have also used them successfully for centuries. Orthographies and > phonological representations are very different things. > > One would be hard pressed to find an example of a writing system in one > language that has not been influenced by another. I think people generally > understand and accept that writing conventions reflect history. That > history not only includes earlier sound changes, but also contact. Today, > English speakers write with Latin letters (and not runes, ogham or > cuneiform) because of their history. Poles write with Latin letters instead > of Cyrillic for a similar reason. Persian speakers today write with a > script derived from Arabic (and not Pahlavi, cuneiform or Sanskrit), which > they in turn passed on to Urdu. Etc. > > Doubtlessly such considerations of potential ambiguity and history > informed Andrews, Campbell et al. in their pedagogic/philological > orthography, since it makes use of these conventions. However, I am at a > loss to explain how the "Carochi orthography", from which the proposal was > derived, could possibly be qualified as being of little value. On the > contrary, it has been exceedingly valuable for philological and linguistic > investigation. Moreover, Launey's pedagogic use of it to teach the grammar > of the old texts strikes me as quite sound, much in the tradition of the > macron in Latin grammars or the overdot to indicate palatalization in Old > English ones. > > > I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. > > > ________________________________ > From: BT Yahoo! > To: Nahuat-L > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:33 AM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > Michael Swanton wrote:- > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > during the colonial period. > > We owe a great deal of our understanding of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I > find McCafferty's comments about it having "little value" to be utterly > baffling. > > An inconvenience with Spanish-influenced classical Nahuatl spelling is > that how to spell the sounds [k] and [s] changes if they are followed by > [i] or [e] or [y]. That is a carry-over from phonetic changes that happened > to the sounds [k] and [g] and [kw] in Europe in Classical Latin as it > changed into Vulgar Latin and then into early Spanish (and Italian and > French etc); those sound changes did not happen in Nahuatl. > > Citlalyani. > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: BT Yahoo! > To: Nahuat-L > Cc: > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 16:53:15 +0100 (BST) > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > ________________________________ > Michael Swanton wrote:- > > > I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. > Sorry: I meant [j] (the sound of English "y" in "yet" and Spanish "y" in > "yo"). > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Frances Karttunen > To: nahuatl discussion list > Cc: > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 13:56:53 -0400 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Carochi's notation > We are deeply indebted to Carochi for revealing, more than any other > scholar of Nahuatl, the systematic phonology of the language. Without > understanding distinctive vowel length and the function of the glottal stop > as a segmental consonant (or--in many regional variants--the reflexes of > these two things), Nahuatl morphology seems arbitrary where it is, in fact, > predictable. > > The problems with Carochi's notation are the following: > > 1. Marking long vowels with macrons and (some) short vowels with an accent > mark is redundant. If a vowel is not long, then it is short. (To my > knowledge, only Estonian has a three-way vowel-length contrast of > over-long, half-long, and short.) In Nahuatl it is sufficient to mark the > long vowels long. > > 2. Marking the presence of a glottal stop with a diacritic over the > preceding vowel misleads people into the belief that it is not a > consonantal segment but some quality of the vowel. Granted, a vowel > followed by a glottal stop does have a different quality from one not > followed by a glottal stop. (Long vowels shorten, all vowels reflect an > anticipatory constriction of the glottis.) What is more, Carochi uses > different diacritics for word-final glottal stop and for all others. Again, > word-final glottal stop may sound different from a glottal stop within a > word, but that difference is entirely predictable. In the systematic > phonology of the language, the glottal stop (or its reflex in variant forms > of the language) is a consonant just as much as /p/ and /t/, so it is best > written with a letter rather than as a diacritic. > > 3. The other issue that has been brought up about the writing of /k/ as c > or qu depending on context, and likewise /s/ as c/? or z depending on > context, is derived from Spanish orthography. An example of a subsequent > sound change in Spanish happening without effect on Nahuatl orthography is > the change (for Spanish but not for Nahuatl) of the sound represented by x. > > It has been an issue of long-standing whether Nahuatl should be better > written with k, s, and w. To do so makes Nahuatl look "less Spanish," but > it also renders the vast body of written Nahuatl less accessible to those > who use the k/s/w notation. Nobody, to my knowledge, has proposed doing > away with the digraphs tl, tz, and ch, so obviously the push has never been > to the full realization of "one sound/one symbol." > > I gave all this long thought when embarking on how to represent the > canonical forms in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, and I came down on > the side of J. Richard Andrews. Back then, Una Canger advised me, "Whatever > you choose will be OK, just as long as you tell people clearly what it is > you are doing." In the introduction to the dictionary I did tell users what > I was doing and why. But I sought to present information in the least > misleading and the most serviceable form possible, and that is what I came > up with, following Dick Andrews' example. > > Frances Karttunen > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Michael Swanton > To: Nahuat-L > Cc: > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 12:52:45 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Fw: Totlahtol > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Michael Swanton > To: Michael McCafferty ; Nahuat-L < > nahuatl at LISTS.FAMSI.ORG> > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > Michael McCafferty, > I believe you are conflating different issues. One?s choice of orthography > is different from erroneous grammatical interpretations. Regardless of what > orthography one uses, it is possible to make mistakes in grammar, etymology > and translation. This makes your dismissal of Launey?s Introduction based > on erroneous, but unspecified, grammatical interpretations seem gratuitous > when addressing a question about orthography. > > It is also, I believe, quite mistaken. I have taught Classical Nahuatl at > Leiden University for several years before moving to Mexico and I found the > French version of the Introduction to be quite valuable. Una Canger has > used the Introduction for many years in her classes in Denmark. While all > works can be improved?there are certainly some errata that need to be noted > (especially in the translated versions of his book) and I have different > interpretations of certain grammatical phenomena (particularly the > passive)?Launey?s Introduction for me and many others continues to be the > best, most accessible and overall reliable initiation to the language. > [Full disclosure: I studied with Launey in Paris years ago]. > > Returning to the issue of orthography, Launey?s pedagogic use of the > so-called Jesuit tradition (attested in Carochi, the Bancroft MS, Aldama y > Guevara and to some extent in Rinc?n and Clavijero) strikes me as quite > sound. When beginning Latin, one carefully learns to write the macrons in > order to learn the grammar, meter and pronunciation even though they don?t > appear in any classical texts. Eventually then, such annotations are > disposed of once the learner has assimilated them. The same applies when > learning Old English where not only are macrons added, but many authors add > an overdot to > and to indicate palatal as opposed to velar articulation. By the > same token, when beginning Classical Hebrew, it is common to learn the > texts with niqqud. In other words, there is a long practice?in reality > going back to the Middle Ages?of adding diacritics to classical > orthographies and texts to facilitate language learning. We may want to > view Carochi?s orthography as part of this tradition. > > The advantage of this approach is that relevant information can be added > to the text with minimal modification of the original. The goal then is to > facilitate access to the original texts, not to retranscribe them. In my > advanced level classes, we would take a text (even ones with such divergent > orthographies as the Florentine Codex or Olmos) and directly mark long > vowels and glottalization using Carochi?s diacritics without > retranscribing. This made for a good exercise. > > Andrews? orthography is different. It requires > retranscription of texts because of its innovative use of to indicate > glottalization. There is nothing wrong with that; it is just a slightly > different approach to teaching the classical language. Indeed, there are > some good reasons to do so (p.e. emphasizing the complementary distribution > of Carochi?s grave and circumflex diacritics). And, even though it was not > designed for such purposes, Andrews? orthography would make for a fine > practical orthography should the Nahua choose to adopt it. > > I do however disagree with your assertion that Andrews?s orthography > characterizes the ?modern study? of Nahuatl. Such an assertion would > exclude many obligatory references for the language (Canger, Peralta, L. > Campbell, Kaufman, Dakin, Lastra?). Indeed, what we see is that Andrew?s > orthography is primarily used among certain scholars, generally American > and generally more involved in lexicographic or philological endeavors (J. > Campbell, Karttunen, Wright, Sullivan, Amith, Wimmer?and I have used it > too in one article where I was making a comparative philological argument). > As much as I respect and admire the work of these other scholars, I am sure > they would be among the first to acknowledge that there are many important > modern studies of Nahuatl that do not use Andrews? orthography. The simple > fact is that people write Nahuatl in different ways depending on their goal > and on their intended audience, and any serious student of Nahuatl should > be able to shift easily from one representational system to another. > > It would be most unfortunate if something as trivial as the use of an > be taken as an emblem as to one?s membership ?in the flow of modern study?. > > Regardless of orthography, any Nahuatl speaker who writes his language is > making a contribution to bring the language into a new social space. > Regardless of orthography, any scholar who makes > a good argument is contributing to Nahuatl language studies. Regardless > of orthography, any teacher who gets his students interested in Nahuatl and > sets them on a path to learning more is broadening the discipline and > dignifying the profound linguistic knowledge that Nahuatl speakers, past > and present, have. > > Regards, > Michael Swanton > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Michael McCafferty > To: > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 9:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > Carochi has served very well. No question. However, as far I as I can > tell, only Carochi and Launey use Carochi's orthographic system. If you > look around, that orthography is not where the modern study of the > language is going. That's what I meant by my "utterly baffling" thought. > > I explained also in a letter to Mr. Guillaume that some rather > "baffling" ideas about Nahuatl grammar are found in Launey, and I'm > confident I didn't find all of the mistakes. In the end, I would > recommend having a copy of Launey on your shelf, but not as the sole > source of your Nahuatl knowledge, and certainly not as a book used in a > classroom unless the professor is knowledgeable enough to 1) catch > Launey's errors and 2) bring enormous amounts of material written in > the non-Carochi orthographic system so that students can be in the flow > of modern > study. > > Best, > > Michael > > > Quoting Michael Swanton : > > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > > From: Michael Swanton > > To: Guillaume Jacques ; > > "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > > > > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > > > during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding > > of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it > > having "little value" to be utterly baffling. > > > > Michael Swanton > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Guillaume Jacques > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > > > I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi > > orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its > typeability, > > especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to > > represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry > to say that using an orthography > > that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. > > Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to > > Classical Nahuatl. > > > > > > Guillaume Jacques > > > > > > 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > > > > > >> John, > >> > >> I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon > >> publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to > English, > >> and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of > >> Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor > >> insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects > of > >> Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in > using it. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> > >> Quoting John Sullivan : > >> > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > >>> "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and > >>> > > other > >>> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all > >>> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are > >>> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We > >>> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual > >>> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the > >>> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously > >>> standardizing the orthography of all > variants across space and time, > >>> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the > >>> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical > >>> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, > >>> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by > >>> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now > >>> > > being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in > >>> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the > >>> following link > >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent. > **com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf< > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15911797/malintzin_itlahtol.pdf> > >>> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the > >>> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be > >>> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last > >>> 500 years. Have fun! > >>> John > >>> > >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. > >>> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and > >>> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ > > Nahuatl Language Institute, > >>> Yale University; > >>> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales > >>> University of Warsaw; > >>> Professor of Nahua language and culture > >>> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas; > >>> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > >>> Tacuba 152, int. > 43 > >>> Centro Hist?rico > >>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > >>> Mexico > >>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > >>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > >>> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > >>> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 > >>> idiez at me.com > >>> www.macehualli.org > >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> Nahuatl mailing list > >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl< > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl< > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Guillaume Jacques > > CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO > > http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques > > http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ > > http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 15:26:11 2013 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2013 11:26:11 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 309, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Listeros, I have not seen McCafferty's review. I am sure that some of the criticisms are valid and look forward to seeing it. To be blunt, however, I found MM's comments in various emails frankly offensive and misguided both in his assumptions regarding the history of the CUP publication and his comments on orthography. To start with the first: "The problem is that Launey had the book translated into English but did not vet it for its thirty-year-old errors, some of which are quite shocking, as you will see when the review appears. He simply handed the thing over to his translator, who added some items of his own, and wiped his hands of the whole affair." Does MM have some insight as to how the publication evolved and what rights were involved? Does he envision that Michel petitioned CUP to translate his book and then went on vacation, "wiping his hands of the whole affair". These are gratuitous remarks that demonstrate much more than naivet?. Rather they misrepresent the situation and are semantically loaded ("had translated", "quite shocking", "wiped his hands"), they are meant to impugn the professionalism of Michel as a scholar. This was a translation of a work proposed, as far as I know, by the translator MacKay, who in fact contacted me before submitting the proposal to CUP asking if he thought that a translation of Launey 1979 to English would be a valuable contribution. I said it would be though when I saw the project did have some misgivings about the proposed "adaptations" (see "translated and adapted by ...." on the cover page and credits) Some authors (here I refer to Michel) might take the opportunity of a translation to rework/review the original publication. But many others would not, having moved on to other interests and having limited time. It is certainly not unusual that a book be translated (in this case the 1979 version) without being updated and "vetted" by the author. To continue, I was asked to review the translation proposal in 2007. The conceptualization was, in my view, somewhat deficient and I made this known to CUP. Apparently my observations were never passed on to Michel. I am not even clear that he was aware of the changes that were being made to the French edition. I do not believe that the translator or author saw my review of the proposal. At any rate, I have published books and often the copyright is with the publisher, not the author. So it is not entirely clear the level of control Michel had over the CUP translation or how much he was involved in the process between the CUP decision to accept the proposed translation (2007) and the typesetting of the page proofs (2011). In 2011, after the book had been translated and typeset, I was asked by CUP to write a blurb for the publication jacket. In reviewing the page proofs noted what I perceived to be significant errors. Some dated back to the original 1979 French text, others were obviously new typos or inconsistencies; some were errors of translation or unfortunate observations introduced by the translator. I detailed what I found most problematic in a 28-page single-spaced set of observations. Michel was extremely gracious and went over the material as best he could given the circumstances (a typeset ms with a publication deadline and cost overruns). If errors remain they are probably because of editorial (CUP) considerations or because Michel had a perspective distinct from mine and chose to maintain his viewpoint. As anyone who has consulted Michel's monumental doctoral thesis on classical Nahuatl will know (this thesis came out in 1986, seven years after his French edition grammar), his knowledge of this language is unmatched. That is not to say that there may not be differences of interpretation with other scholars (e.g.,re: omnipredicativity) or perhaps even what may be considered now (27 years after Launey's thesis) infelicitous analyses. But a key point remains that the CUP translation is of a book published seven years before the thesis and probably written several years earlier than even that. It would not be unusual that between the book and thesis Michel caught errors and changed analyses. Regardless of the errors and miscommunications I would like to say that CUP is to be highly commended for holding up publication, missing a deadline, and allowing for many corrections to be made, corrections that are very expensive when done after page proofs. In sum, I think that the editorial process involved a degree of miscommunication that was unfortunate. But both CUP and Michel did a commendable job in correcting errors to the degree possible at the time of publication. MM's comments in his email are not simply misrepresentative but are stated in a tone and language that is not called for. But now to MM's comments about orthography, which I found extremely perplexing. His initial email made a rather gratuitous comment about Carochi's system and seemed to demonstrate a rather unusual claim of the right to use the orthography of his choice in the review coming out in AL: "and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it." I don't understand why MM characterizes Launey's "perpetuation" (a loaded term itself) of Carochi's orthography as "bedeviling". Is it annoying? unjustified? ad hoc or arbitrary? As far as I can tell, Michel wrote a grammar of classical Nahuatl and utilized the colonial orthography most representative of the phonemes of central valley Nahuatl. Not only was Carochi's analysis of the language brilliant, but his choice of orthography extremely innovative considering what his choices were at that time (given his foundation in Spanish and Latin). As to the point of an acute accent signaling a short vowel in many cases Carochi seems to use this accent in situations of contrast or to emphasize that the vowel is short or in certain roots (e.g., t?tl, t?qui/t?co, c?lia). The situations in which Carochi uses an acute accent are not clear and, in fact, quite limited. They deserve study and analysis. A second point refers to what I can only understand as petulance and peevishness. The editor of AL apparently asked MM to use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of Nahuatl. MM said that he found this difficult because of the "little value" of said orthography. It seems to me that the editor was making a perfectly reasonable request to maintain consistency. For example, if Launey had a particular interpretation of t?tequi (the first /e/ with a grave accent), would it be editorially wise to permit MM to either change the original orthography in the citation (e.g., "Launey holds that tehtequi ....") or to comment on the term in a changed orthography (e.g., "while Launey holds that t?tequi is a term seldom found, I think that tehtequi is indeed quite common ...")? In short, I find the editorial suggestion at Anthropological Linguistics that MM use the orthography of the book under review not particularly unusual given the circumstances. And I find MM's comment that it was difficult for him to do so because he sees "little value in using it" petty. It seems that MM prefers that Michel use Andrews's orthography; considering the situation this would be anachronistic. If Launey wanted to cite an example from Carochi would he be expected to change Carochi's orthography in the citation? This would lead to all sorts of problems with no obvious benefit. A second question concerns the utility of Andrews's orthography. Michael Swanton is certainly correct in noting that while common in the works of certain US scholars, it is not used in Mexico and reflects neither the historical texts nor most modern orthographies. Una Canger, in her article in Making Dictionaries (p. 201) compares different orthographies and Andrews differs from Molina and Sim?on in the use of "z" instead of the cedilla and in the use of "hu" in syllable initial context instead of "u". Certainly the "h" is not common in colonial orthographies (I believe Olmos is a partial exception). One can debate whether the "saltillo" is a segment or a feature of vowels based on either historical reconstruction or distribution. But clearly "h" affects alphabetization in a way that a diacritic does not and the use of diacritics makes "minimal pairs" in colonial orthography more salient (pati, for example, or a three-way contrast of patilia representing a long vowel, a short vowel, and a vowel followed by the saltillo). Finally, I think that an adage I use is relevant: "if standardization is necessary it won't work" and "if standardization works, it is not necessary". The SEP, decentralized by state, has been using an orthography that most Nahuatl-speakers grow up with. In all states "s" and "k" are used for [s] and [k]. Variation exists between "w" and "hu/uh", "h" and "j", "tz" and "ts", etc. Vowel length is not (or rarely) represented. To state that Andrews's orthography connects modern Nahuatl speakers to their linguistic heritage is erroneous (whatever other reasons might be used to justify it): it is significantly different from classical or colonial representations and it is significantly different from what speakers are now experiencing in the school systems. In sum, then, I found MM's comments about Launey's editorial responsibilities misplaced and misguided and his comments about orthography gratuitous. Jonathan On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen < magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote: > Listeros, > > I am very happy that a there is now a publishing venture aiming to produce > literature in Nahuatl for Nahuatl speakers - this is of immense value for > speakers and linguists alike. Both congratulations and thanks and thanks > are in order with to John and Justyna for starting this program and to > Refugio for his excellent work. > > This notwithstanding I am highly critical of the reasoning behind the > decision to champion a single orthographic standard, which from my point of > view is both unnecessary and possibly detrimental. The reason it is > unnecessary is that Nahuatl speakers since the 16th century have been able > to communicate fine in writing without a standardized orthography (just > like Shakespeare was able to write his plays without one). I know Nahuatl > speakers who use a Carochi style writing system on facebook. And I know > Nahuatl speakers who write using only ad hoc writing systems that to me is > every bit as frustrating to read as the texts written by the least educated > scribes of the 16th century, with arbitrary word boundaries and completely > inconsistent representation of phonemes. But they get their points across > to each other just fine. The main function of standardization is and has > always been, not ease of communication, but the construction of norms, and > normalcy, and by extension the construction of difference, hierarchy and > power. > > The reason I think standardization is possibly linguistically (and > socially) detrimental is because the process of standardization is > inevitably also a political process that leads to the glossing over and > eventual erasure of linguistic diversity (just a the introduction of an > English standard orthography led to a political process that marginalized > those dialects of English that became "non-standard"). Erasure both in the > sense that some linguistic differences are rendered u=invisible to future > scholars, but also in the sense that some varieties and the features their > speakers feel characterize them are rendered invisible, as some varieties > are given priority in the construction of a norm. > > In the discussion of Launey's-Carochi's orthography one point is forgotten, > namely that Carochi chose to represent the glottal stop with a diacritic > because that reflected something about his understanding of Tenochca > Nahuatl phonology prosody. He did not consider the glottal stop to be a > segment, but a suprasegmental feature of a syllable - which was supported > by the fact that glottal stop and vowel length is in complementary > distribution in Nahuatl. He also chose it because he was describing a > language which did not have the phone [h], but a glottal stop. Some > dialects have the phone [h] others have [?] - this difference is made > invisible by the choice to represent both sounds with the symbol . > Nahuatl is not one thing, it is many. There are varieties in which > exists as a separate phoneme and varieties in which it doesn't, there are > varieties in which /b/ is phonemic and others in which it isn't, varieties > that distinguish vowel length others that don't, some varieties that have 6 > vowels others that have five, et cetera. These differences (and perhaps > even more so the substantial morphological and syntactic differences among > varieties) are not simply unfortunate obstacles for effective communication > between speakers of different varieties, but are in fact the very > linguistic and cultural wealth that we should strive to preserve and > respect. > > best wishes, > Magnus > > > On 2 September 2013 15:58, wrote: > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Fw: Totlahtol (Michael Swanton) > > 2. Re: Fw: Totlahtol (BT Yahoo!) > > 3. Carochi's notation (Frances Karttunen) > > 4. Fw: Fw: Totlahtol (Michael Swanton) > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Michael Swanton > > To: BT Yahoo! , Nahuat-L < > > nahuatl at LISTS.FAMSI.ORG> > > Cc: > > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 08:40:02 -0700 (PDT) > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > I am not sure what is inconvenient about a pair of simple, unambiguous > > writing conventions. Not only have some of the world's most widely > written > > languages used such conventions without difficulty, but Nahuatl writers > > have also used them successfully for centuries. Orthographies and > > phonological representations are very different things. > > > > One would be hard pressed to find an example of a writing system in one > > language that has not been influenced by another. I think people > generally > > understand and accept that writing conventions reflect history. That > > history not only includes earlier sound changes, but also contact. Today, > > English speakers write with Latin letters (and not runes, ogham or > > cuneiform) because of their history. Poles write with Latin letters > instead > > of Cyrillic for a similar reason. Persian speakers today write with a > > script derived from Arabic (and not Pahlavi, cuneiform or Sanskrit), > which > > they in turn passed on to Urdu. Etc. > > > > Doubtlessly such considerations of potential ambiguity and history > > informed Andrews, Campbell et al. in their pedagogic/philological > > orthography, since it makes use of these conventions. However, I am at a > > loss to explain how the "Carochi orthography", from which the proposal > was > > derived, could possibly be qualified as being of little value. On the > > contrary, it has been exceedingly valuable for philological and > linguistic > > investigation. Moreover, Launey's pedagogic use of it to teach the > grammar > > of the old texts strikes me as quite sound, much in the tradition of the > > macron in Latin grammars or the overdot to indicate palatalization in Old > > English ones. > > > > > > I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: BT Yahoo! > > To: Nahuat-L > > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:33 AM > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > > > > > > Michael Swanton wrote:- > > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > > during the colonial period. > > > We owe a great deal of our understanding of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. > I > > find McCafferty's comments about it having "little value" to be utterly > > baffling. > > > > An inconvenience with Spanish-influenced classical Nahuatl spelling is > > that how to spell the sounds [k] and [s] changes if they are followed by > > [i] or [e] or [y]. That is a carry-over from phonetic changes that > happened > > to the sounds [k] and [g] and [kw] in Europe in Classical Latin as it > > changed into Vulgar Latin and then into early Spanish (and Italian and > > French etc); those sound changes did not happen in Nahuatl. > > > > Citlalyani. > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: BT Yahoo! > > To: Nahuat-L > > Cc: > > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 16:53:15 +0100 (BST) > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Michael Swanton wrote:- > > > > > I know of no variety of Nahuatl with the phone [y]. > > Sorry: I meant [j] (the sound of English "y" in "yet" and Spanish "y" in > > "yo"). > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Frances Karttunen > > To: nahuatl discussion list > > Cc: > > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 13:56:53 -0400 > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Carochi's notation > > We are deeply indebted to Carochi for revealing, more than any other > > scholar of Nahuatl, the systematic phonology of the language. Without > > understanding distinctive vowel length and the function of the glottal > stop > > as a segmental consonant (or--in many regional variants--the reflexes of > > these two things), Nahuatl morphology seems arbitrary where it is, in > fact, > > predictable. > > > > The problems with Carochi's notation are the following: > > > > 1. Marking long vowels with macrons and (some) short vowels with an > accent > > mark is redundant. If a vowel is not long, then it is short. (To my > > knowledge, only Estonian has a three-way vowel-length contrast of > > over-long, half-long, and short.) In Nahuatl it is sufficient to mark the > > long vowels long. > > > > 2. Marking the presence of a glottal stop with a diacritic over the > > preceding vowel misleads people into the belief that it is not a > > consonantal segment but some quality of the vowel. Granted, a vowel > > followed by a glottal stop does have a different quality from one not > > followed by a glottal stop. (Long vowels shorten, all vowels reflect an > > anticipatory constriction of the glottis.) What is more, Carochi uses > > different diacritics for word-final glottal stop and for all others. > Again, > > word-final glottal stop may sound different from a glottal stop within a > > word, but that difference is entirely predictable. In the systematic > > phonology of the language, the glottal stop (or its reflex in variant > forms > > of the language) is a consonant just as much as /p/ and /t/, so it is > best > > written with a letter rather than as a diacritic. > > > > 3. The other issue that has been brought up about the writing of /k/ as c > > or qu depending on context, and likewise /s/ as c/? or z depending on > > context, is derived from Spanish orthography. An example of a subsequent > > sound change in Spanish happening without effect on Nahuatl orthography > is > > the change (for Spanish but not for Nahuatl) of the sound represented by > x. > > > > It has been an issue of long-standing whether Nahuatl should be better > > written with k, s, and w. To do so makes Nahuatl look "less Spanish," > but > > it also renders the vast body of written Nahuatl less accessible to those > > who use the k/s/w notation. Nobody, to my knowledge, has proposed doing > > away with the digraphs tl, tz, and ch, so obviously the push has never > been > > to the full realization of "one sound/one symbol." > > > > I gave all this long thought when embarking on how to represent the > > canonical forms in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, and I came down > on > > the side of J. Richard Andrews. Back then, Una Canger advised me, > "Whatever > > you choose will be OK, just as long as you tell people clearly what it is > > you are doing." In the introduction to the dictionary I did tell users > what > > I was doing and why. But I sought to present information in the least > > misleading and the most serviceable form possible, and that is what I > came > > up with, following Dick Andrews' example. > > > > Frances Karttunen > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Michael Swanton > > To: Nahuat-L > > Cc: > > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 12:52:45 -0700 (PDT) > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > > From: Michael Swanton > > To: Michael McCafferty ; Nahuat-L < > > nahuatl at LISTS.FAMSI.ORG> > > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 2:52 PM > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty, > > I believe you are conflating different issues. One?s choice of > orthography > > is different from erroneous grammatical interpretations. Regardless of > what > > orthography one uses, it is possible to make mistakes in grammar, > etymology > > and translation. This makes your dismissal of Launey?s Introduction based > > on erroneous, but unspecified, grammatical interpretations seem > gratuitous > > when addressing a question about orthography. > > > > It is also, I believe, quite mistaken. I have taught Classical Nahuatl at > > Leiden University for several years before moving to Mexico and I found > the > > French version of the Introduction to be quite valuable. Una Canger has > > used the Introduction for many years in her classes in Denmark. While all > > works can be improved?there are certainly some errata that need to be > noted > > (especially in the translated versions of his book) and I have different > > interpretations of certain grammatical phenomena (particularly the > > passive)?Launey?s Introduction for me and many others continues to be the > > best, most accessible and overall reliable initiation to the language. > > [Full disclosure: I studied with Launey in Paris years ago]. > > > > Returning to the issue of orthography, Launey?s pedagogic use of the > > so-called Jesuit tradition (attested in Carochi, the Bancroft MS, Aldama > y > > Guevara and to some extent in Rinc?n and Clavijero) strikes me as quite > > sound. When beginning Latin, one carefully learns to write the macrons in > > order to learn the grammar, meter and pronunciation even though they > don?t > > appear in any classical texts. Eventually then, such annotations are > > disposed of once the learner has assimilated them. The same applies when > > learning Old English where not only are macrons added, but many authors > add > > an overdot to > > and to indicate palatal as opposed to velar articulation. By the > > same token, when beginning Classical Hebrew, it is common to learn the > > texts with niqqud. In other words, there is a long practice?in reality > > going back to the Middle Ages?of adding diacritics to classical > > orthographies and texts to facilitate language learning. We may want to > > view Carochi?s orthography as part of this tradition. > > > > The advantage of this approach is that relevant information can be added > > to the text with minimal modification of the original. The goal then is > to > > facilitate access to the original texts, not to retranscribe them. In my > > advanced level classes, we would take a text (even ones with such > divergent > > orthographies as the Florentine Codex or Olmos) and directly mark long > > vowels and glottalization using Carochi?s diacritics without > > retranscribing. This made for a good exercise. > > > > Andrews? orthography is different. It requires > > retranscription of texts because of its innovative use of to > indicate > > glottalization. There is nothing wrong with that; it is just a slightly > > different approach to teaching the classical language. Indeed, there are > > some good reasons to do so (p.e. emphasizing the complementary > distribution > > of Carochi?s grave and circumflex diacritics). And, even though it was > not > > designed for such purposes, Andrews? orthography would make for a fine > > practical orthography should the Nahua choose to adopt it. > > > > I do however disagree with your assertion that Andrews?s orthography > > characterizes the ?modern study? of Nahuatl. Such an assertion would > > exclude many obligatory references for the language (Canger, Peralta, L. > > Campbell, Kaufman, Dakin, Lastra?). Indeed, what we see is that Andrew?s > > orthography is primarily used among certain scholars, generally American > > and generally more involved in lexicographic or philological endeavors > (J. > > Campbell, Karttunen, Wright, Sullivan, Amith, Wimmer?and I have used it > > too in one article where I was making a comparative philological > argument). > > As much as I respect and admire the work of these other scholars, I am > sure > > they would be among the first to acknowledge that there are many > important > > modern studies of Nahuatl that do not use Andrews? orthography. The > simple > > fact is that people write Nahuatl in different ways depending on their > goal > > and on their intended audience, and any serious student of Nahuatl should > > be able to shift easily from one representational system to another. > > > > It would be most unfortunate if something as trivial as the use of an > > be taken as an emblem as to one?s membership ?in the flow of modern > study?. > > > > Regardless of orthography, any Nahuatl speaker who writes his language is > > making a contribution to bring the language into a new social space. > > Regardless of orthography, any scholar who makes > > a good argument is contributing to Nahuatl language studies. Regardless > > of orthography, any teacher who gets his students interested in Nahuatl > and > > sets them on a path to learning more is broadening the discipline and > > dignifying the profound linguistic knowledge that Nahuatl speakers, past > > and present, have. > > > > Regards, > > Michael Swanton > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: > > Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 9:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Fw: Totlahtol > > > > > > > > Carochi has served very well. No question. However, as far I as I can > > tell, only Carochi and Launey use Carochi's orthographic system. If you > > look around, that orthography is not where the modern study of the > > language is going. That's what I meant by my "utterly baffling" thought. > > > > I explained also in a letter to Mr. Guillaume that some rather > > "baffling" ideas about Nahuatl grammar are found in Launey, and I'm > > confident I didn't find all of the mistakes. In the end, I would > > recommend having a copy of Launey on your shelf, but not as the sole > > source of your Nahuatl knowledge, and certainly not as a book used in a > > classroom unless the professor is knowledgeable enough to 1) catch > > Launey's errors and 2) bring enormous amounts of material written in > > the non-Carochi orthographic system so that students can be in the flow > > of modern > > study. > > > > Best, > > > > Michael > > > > > > Quoting Michael Swanton : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > > > From: Michael Swanton > > > To: Guillaume Jacques ; > > > "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > > > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > > > > > > > > > The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used > > > > > during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding > > > of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it > > > having "little value" to be utterly baffling. > > > > > > Michael Swanton > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Guillaume Jacques > > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol > > > > > > > > > I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi > > > orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its > > typeability, > > > especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to > > > represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry > > to say that using an orthography > > > that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners. > > > Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction > to > > > Classical Nahuatl. > > > > > > > > > Guillaume Jacques > > > > > > > > > 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty > > > > > > > > >> John, > > >> > > >> I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon > > >> publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to > > English, > > >> and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of > > >> Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the > editor > > >> insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various > aspects > > of > > >> Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in > > using it. > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> > > >> Michael > > >> > > >> > > >> Quoting John Sullivan : > > >> > > >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan, > > >>> "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ > and > > >>> > > > other > > >>> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all > > >>> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are > > >>> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We > > >>> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual > > >>> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the > > >>> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously > > >>> standardizing the orthography of all > > variants across space and time, > > >>> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the > > >>> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical > > >>> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series, > > >>> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by > > >>> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now > > >>> > > > being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in > > >>> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the > > >>> following link > > >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent. > > **com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf< > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15911797/malintzin_itlahtol.pdf> > > >>> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the > > >>> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be > > >>> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last > > >>> 500 years. Have fun! > > >>> John > > >>> > > >>> John Sullivan, Ph.D. > > >>> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and > > >>> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ > > > Nahuatl Language Institute, > > >>> Yale University; > > >>> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales > > >>> University of Warsaw; > > >>> Professor of Nahua language and culture > > >>> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas; > > >>> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology > > >>> Tacuba 152, int. > > 43 > > >>> Centro Hist?rico > > >>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > > >>> Mexico > > >>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415 > > >>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048 > > >>> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195 > > >>> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790 > > >>> idiez at me.com > > >>> www.macehualli.org > > >>> > > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > > >>> Nahuatl mailing list > > >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl< > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> ______________________________**_________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl< > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Guillaume Jacques > > > CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO > > > http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques > > > http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ > > > http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu* > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Sep 3 22:20:55 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2013 18:20:55 -0400 Subject: Fritz: here is my intended note Message-ID: My sincere thanks to Magnus both on and off list for his insights and to Jonathan both on and off list for showing what went on behind the scenes before Launey's English translation was published. It's tricky work. I went back today to look at my "critique litteraire" of Launey's book, as I hadn't seen my review in a month or two, and discovered there is only one line, a parenthetical remark at that, about orthography, and it's not even a disparaging remark! So, I'm sure everyone will be happy about that. It looks like I focused solely on the grammar misinterpretations. At the very least, everyone will be able to open hisher copy of Launey's grammar and mark those pages where the errors occurred. I think, in the end, despite my shortcomings as a communicator by email, the comments on grammar in the review will contribute to our knowledge of the language. Best regards to all, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Sun Sep 15 12:05:08 2013 From: Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com (Ian Mursell) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:05:08 +0100 Subject: 'Land and Liberty' Message-ID: Hola listeros, We've received an interesting question via our website, and I wonder if the group could help. Here's the message:- "I am wondering if 'Land and Liberty' and 'It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees' had standard Nahuatl translations during the revolution?" Any thoughts and suggestions would be warmly welcomed. Muchos saludos desde Londres, Ian Ian Mursell, B.Sc., M.A. MirandaNet Fellow, Institute of Education, London University Director, 'Mexicolore' 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 0173 www.aztecs.org ian at mexicolore.co.uk 1980-2013: 33 years of bringing Mexico and the Mexica/Aztecs to life in over 2,000 schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team' (British Museum Education Service) _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 18 16:09:15 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:09:15 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 310, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Jacinto Acatecatl : > Hola muy buenos d?as, para traducir el termino Libertad, resulta > complejo, s? de antemano que es las tierras mexicas habia esclavitud, > pero recordemos que el n?huatl tiene otra estructura gramatical, a?n > as? anoto acontinuaci?n mi umilde traducci?n y esta sujeta a cambios, > criticas y comentarios. > Que tengan excelente d?a > > To tlalplan to nemilis, akache kuani ma nimiki, ihuan amo ni yoltos > tlankuakitok hua ni tlahyohuihtos.Mi tierra mi andar, es preferible > morir que vivir de rodillas sufriendo. > Gracias, Jacinto. Pero "nemilis" no quiere decir tambien "vivir"? No sei. Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Wed Sep 18 19:54:18 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 Subject: pregunta Message-ID: Es correcto decir: Inin inemeliz nocihuatl La vida de mi esposa. juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Sep 18 21:38:41 2013 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 Subject: pregunta In-Reply-To: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC@webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". John On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From yekeus at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 21:16:13 2013 From: yekeus at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Javier_Jim=E9nez?=) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 Subject: pregunta In-Reply-To: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC@webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de m? esposa. Saludos Javier On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From yekeus at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 22:05:41 2013 From: yekeus at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Javier_Jim=E9nez?=) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 Subject: pregunta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de m? esposa. Saludos Javier _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Thu Sep 19 17:04:31 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: thank you juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request To: nahuatl Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." Today's Topics: 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Es correcto decir: Inin inemeliz nocihuatl La vida de mi esposa. juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 From: John Sullivan To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". John On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 From: Javier Jim?nez To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de m? esposa. Saludos Javier On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 From: Javier Jim?nez To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de m? esposa. Saludos Javier ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Fri Sep 20 17:22:58 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 Subject: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: 1, Pero no le gustan los animales 2. Aunque tenemos un perro 3. El perro es de mi hija Mah cualli ohtli juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 20 19:40:03 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 Subject: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: In-Reply-To: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Juan: ?De que habla usted? ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. Gracias, Michael Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 20 19:55:46 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 Subject: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: In-Reply-To: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > 3. El perro es de mi hija nohueltiuh ichichi > > > Mah cualli ohtli > ihuan tehhuatl Michael > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 20 20:37:40 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 Subject: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: In-Reply-To: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. :) Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Juan: > > ?De que habla usted? > > ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > Gracias, > > Michael > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >> >> 3. El perro es de mi hija >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 20 21:16:55 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 Subject: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: In-Reply-To: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Mi espanol no es bueno. It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) so nochpochtzin ichichi Mille regrets, Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > nohueltiuh ichichi > >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> > > ihuan tehhuatl > > Michael > > >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Sat Sep 21 17:20:16 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:20:16 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: En realidad quiero que me digan como se escriben esas frases en Nahuatl. juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request To: nahuatl Sent: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) 2. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 3. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 4. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 5. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9 at Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1, Pero no le gustan los animales 2. Aunque tenemos un perro 3. El perro es de mi hija Mah cualli ohtli juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Juan: ?De que habla usted? ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. Gracias, Michael Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > 3. El perro es de mi hija nohueltiuh ichichi > > > Mah cualli ohtli > ihuan tehhuatl Michael > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920163740.3ydz39k7wwckkg0w at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. :) Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Juan: > > ?De que habla usted? > > ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > Gracias, > > Michael > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >> >> 3. El perro es de mi hija >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920171655.7q5hkbe6pwkwkoo8 at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Mi espanol no es bueno. It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) so nochpochtzin ichichi Mille regrets, Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > nohueltiuh ichichi > >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> > > ihuan tehhuatl > > Michael > > >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Sat Sep 21 17:30:56 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:30:56 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh icel oquichihuaya" "Todo el trabajo ella sola lo hacia" What is the purpose of the word ZAN? Tlazocamati juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request To: nahuatl Sent: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 Message-ID: <8D08371713A6059-1758-F3F3 at webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" thank you juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request To: nahuatl Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." Today's Topics: 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Es correcto decir: Inin inemeliz nocihuatl La vida de mi esposa. juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 From: John Sullivan To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". John On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 From: Javier Jim?nez To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de m? esposa. Saludos Javier On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 From: Javier Jim?nez To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico I ni nemiliz no zioahoh La vida de m? esposa. Saludos Javier ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 *************************************** ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Sun Sep 22 14:13:00 2013 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 10:13:00 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <8D085077692F54D-198C-A345@webmail-m274.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It conveys the sense of "solamente" which reinforces "icel" "sola." Fran Karttunen On Sep 21, 2013, at 1:30 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan > yeh icel oquichihuaya" > > "Todo el > trabajo ella sola lo hacia" > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > Tlazocamati > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From juanvazquezvaz at aol.com Mon Sep 23 16:37:43 2013 From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 12:37:43 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ani?males seria yolcameh juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-request To: nahuatl Sent: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to nahuatl at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) 2. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 3. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 4. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) 5. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9 at Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1, Pero no le gustan los animales 2. Aunque tenemos un perro 3. El perro es de mi hija Mah cualli ohtli juan Vazquez juanvazquezvaz at aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Juan: ?De que habla usted? ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. Gracias, Michael Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > 3. El perro es de mi hija nohueltiuh ichichi > > > Mah cualli ohtli > ihuan tehhuatl Michael > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920163740.3ydz39k7wwckkg0w at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. :) Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Juan: > > ?De que habla usted? > > ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > Gracias, > > Michael > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >> >> 3. El perro es de mi hija >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 From: Michael McCafferty To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: Message-ID: <20130920171655.7q5hkbe6pwkwkoo8 at webmail.iu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Mi espanol no es bueno. It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) so nochpochtzin ichichi Mille regrets, Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > nohueltiuh ichichi > >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> > > ihuan tehhuatl > > Michael > > >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 23 19:24:31 2013 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 15:24:31 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: <8D086925C5A0814-2068-16ED4@webmail-m210.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: En la lengua moderna, si. Es verdad. Pero en la langua classica, yolcatl es e singular e plurial. Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > Ani?males seria yolcameh > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 3. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 4. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 5. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9 at Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Juan: > > ?De que habla usted? > > ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > Gracias, > > Michael > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >> >> 3. El perro es de mi hija >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > >> >> >> >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl >> >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > nohueltiuh ichichi > >> >> >> Mah cualli ohtli >> > > ihuan tehhuatl > > Michael > > >> juan Vazquez >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920163740.3ydz39k7wwckkg0w at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request > from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a > Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? > > I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. > > :) > > Michael > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> Juan: >> >> ?De que habla usted? >> >> ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? >> >> Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. >> >> Gracias, >> >> Michael >> >> Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >>> >>> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >>> >>> 3. El perro es de mi hija >>> >>> >>> Mah cualli ohtli >>> >>> juan Vazquez >>> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920171655.7q5hkbe6pwkwkoo8 at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Mi espanol no es bueno. > > > > It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... > > nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' > > nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) > > so > > > nochpochtzin ichichi > > > Mille regrets, > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > >> Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales >> >> Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl >>> >>> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro >> >> Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi >> >>> 3. El perro es de mi hija >> >> nohueltiuh ichichi >> >>> >>> >>> Mah cualli ohtli >>> >> >> ihuan tehhuatl >> >> Michael >> >> >>> juan Vazquez >>> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t_amaya at megared.net.mx Tue Sep 24 20:24:55 2013 From: t_amaya at megared.net.mx (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 15:24:55 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <8D085077692F54D-198C-A345@webmail-m274.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Saludos Juan, Primero que nada es un muy buen enunciado en mexicano. Por tanto se pueden hacer varias traducciones al espa?ol: 1. "Nada m?s ella solita era la que hac?a todo el trabajo" 2. "Todo el trabajo existente, lo hac?a ella solita y nadie m?s" 3. "Todo ese trabajo, nom?s lo hac?a ella solita sin ayuda de nadie". El problema de esta frase es que una traducci?n m?s literal suena mal en espa?ol pues se trata de un enunciado con t?pico inicial seguido de foco delimitado y especificado por ZAN As?, en ingl?s se podr?a decir: As for the whole work, she was the only one who carried it out. Te voy a poner un ejemplo en el mexicano de Cuetzalan. Yn matahcihuat zah tahcoyohuan in neci. Zayuh tahuananih in quitah. Tacah tihuinti xiauh mochantzinco mah ayamo tahcoyohuan. Yn matahcihuat quinhuica ohuihcan zayuh in ?n tahuananih, ?n tacah-cihuatohtocanih tahcoyohualquizah. Sonar?a en espa?ol as?: La matlahcihuatl solamente se aparece a media noche. S?lo pueden verla los borrachos. Si te emborrachas vete a tu casa antes de la media noche. La matlacihuatl se lleva a lugares horribles s?lo a los borrachos y mujeriegos que salen a la media noche. Nimitzyolmahtapalohua Tomas Amaya 2013/9/21 > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh icel > oquichihuaya" > > "Todo el trabajo > ella sola lo hacia" > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > Tlazocamati > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > Message-ID: <8D08371713A6059-1758-F3F3 at webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > thank you > > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > From: John Sullivan > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > John > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > From: Javier Jim?nez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > < > CAMYTJrE8a7LhczSpA8UOUcD7AEp67fzfMO9zEER441dHDkse3w at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de m? esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > From: Javier Jim?nez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > < > CAMYTJrHu63MnEshPRtyHyiFG2fy3DZCGDGgS5sn3ig0TsV3zbg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de m? esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > *************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Tue Sep 24 21:40:34 2013 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:40:34 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inemilis no sihua, es como yo dir?a, pero cualquier otra variante debe ser correcto. Atte. Jacinto Acatecatl > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:00:02 -0500 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > From: John Sullivan > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > John > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > From: Javier Jim?nez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de m? esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > From: Javier Jim?nez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de m? esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Tue Sep 24 21:44:52 2013 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:44:52 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1, Pero no le gustan los animales: pampa amo kipaktia tekuanimeh 2. Aunque tenemos un perro: tikpia se itzcuitle(i)/ chichi. 3. El perro es de mi hija: itzcuintle iyaxkah no tak?h/ chichi i axkah no ichpokatl, este ?ltimo es para referisre a una hija adolecente. > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 12:00:02 -0500 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 3. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 (Frances Karttunen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:20:16 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > Message-ID: <8D08505F91F6B91-A40-A257 at webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > En realidad quiero que me digan como se escriben esas frases en Nahuatl. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 3. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 4. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > 5. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9 at Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Juan: > > ?De que habla usted? > > ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > Gracias, > > Michael > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > nohueltiuh ichichi > > > > > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > > > ihuan tehhuatl > > Michael > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920163740.3ydz39k7wwckkg0w at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request > from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a > Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? > > I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. > > :) > > Michael > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > > Juan: > > > > ?De que habla usted? > > > > ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? > > > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > > > Gracias, > > > > Michael > > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > >> > >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > >> > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > >> > >> > >> Mah cualli ohtli > >> > >> juan Vazquez > >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 > From: Michael McCafferty > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > Message-ID: <20130920171655.7q5hkbe6pwkwkoo8 at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > Mi espanol no es bueno. > > > > It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... > > nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' > > nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) > > so > > > nochpochtzin ichichi > > > Mille regrets, > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > >> > >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > > > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > nohueltiuh ichichi > > > >> > >> > >> Mah cualli ohtli > >> > > > > ihuan tehhuatl > > > > Michael > > > > > >> juan Vazquez > >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > *************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:30:56 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > Message-ID: <8D085077692F54D-198C-A345 at webmail-m274.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh icel oquichihuaya" > > "Todo el trabajo ella sola lo hacia" > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > Tlazocamati > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > Message-ID: <8D08371713A6059-1758-F3F3 at webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > thank you > > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-request > To: nahuatl > Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Es correcto decir: > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > juan Vazquez > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > From: John Sullivan > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > John > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > From: Javier Jim?nez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de m? esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > From: Javier Jim?nez > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > La vida de m? esposa. > > Saludos > Javier > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > *************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > *************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 10:13:00 -0400 > From: Frances Karttunen > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > Cc: nahuatl discussion list > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > Message-ID: <15BAD3F2-1C37-40A7-8E0B-174C34A4981E at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > It conveys the sense of "solamente" which reinforces "icel" "sola." > > Fran Karttunen > > > On Sep 21, 2013, at 1:30 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan > > yeh icel oquichihuaya" > > > > "Todo el > > trabajo ella sola lo hacia" > > > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > > > Tlazocamati > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Sep 25 03:32:34 2013 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 23:32:34 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 Message-ID: Quoting Frances Karttunen : > It conveys the sense of "solamente" which reinforces "icel" "sola." > > Fran Karttunen > > On Sep 21, 2013, at 1:30 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > >> In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh >> icel oquichihuaya" >> >> "Todo el trabajo >> ella sola lo hacia" >> >> What is the purpose of the word ZAN? >> >> Tlazocamati >> Nocnihuan, Since I see our get-togethers as discussions, not arguments, I nod at some contributions but sometimes maintain a certain dubit. Although I agreed in the main with Fran's comment, I kept hearing the echo of the discourse of a friend from Canoa as we walked here and there and even yon -- the phrase "zan yeh" kept popping up. So the three part phrase "zan yeh icel" made me check the co-occurrence of the pairs: zan yeh zan (i)cel Fran's comment is borne out both in checking co-occurrences in the Florentine and in checking the grammar of Richard Andrews. I thought y'all would find these notes of interest. Joe From Andrews: (results from the Florentine follow "*******") Andrews, p. 396 NNCs formed on the stem (n-o-ce*-l)-0-, (m-o-ce*-l)-0-, etc., are usually preceded by the adverbial particle zan, "only": zan noce*l = I am alone *** zan nocel = I am alone p. 401 The preterit predicate formed on the verbstem *(iyo-a*) can be used in an NNC whose predicate is translated as an adjective with a value similar to that of the adjectival nounstem (n-o-ce*-l)-0-, etc. (see ? 40.2.3). The particle zan ordinarily precedes the NNC. The verb *(iyoa*) also occurs in an adverbial VNC (see ? 44.3.11); see also ? 44.8.1. zan niyoh = #n-0(iyo-h-0)[[-0# = I am alone. *** zan niyoh = niyoh[[ = I am alone. zan tiyoh = you are alone *** zan tiyoh = you are alone zan iyoh = he/she/it is alone *** zan iyoh = he/she/it is alone zan tiyohqueh = we are alone *** zan tiyohqueh = we are alone zan amiyohqueh = you (pl) are alone *** zan amiyohqueh = you pl are alone zan iyohqueh = they are alone *** zan iyohqueh = they are alone page ?? Zan noce*l o*nihua*llah. = I alone came. Only I came. *** Zan nocel onihuallah. = I alone came. Only I came. Zan toce*ltin o*tihua*llahqueh. = We alone came. Only we came. *** Zan toceltin otihuallahqueh. = We alone came. Only we came. ************************************** I found 40 tokens of the co-occurrence of "zan" and "-cel". Some of them turned out to be repetitions, so they show up as blank sentences. The repetitions are the result of a double occurrence of the pattern in the sentence. >8-) If you consult the text, either in Dibble and Anderson or in the facsimile and you find that my spelling doesn't match theirs, it is due to the fact that I use a double entry text with both the original and a regularized version. Using the original spelling would be an impossible task!! zan ce:l *** 40 1. in zan huel iceltzin itetzinco quiza in pepetlaca, in tlanextia, in ixquich teyollali, in ixquich tetlamachti, huel yehhuatzin zan huel iceltzin, tlachihuale. he from whom alone issueth that which illumineth, that which giveth light, that which comforteth; all teaching -- he alone, the creator. b.1 c.Ap p.56 f.3 2. 3. 4. 5. ce tlacatl tlatoani onnenca ipiltzin, zan huel icel ipiltzin, itelpoch, in cenca quitlazotlaya: there lived the son of a man who was ruler, his only son, his youth, whom he loved much. b.1 c.Ap p.58 f.3 6. in tlazotli tocaitl in teotl, in zan huel iceltzin iaxcatzin in dios, inic oquintocayotique in teixiptla in tetl, in cuahuitl. the precious name of god, which belongeth only to god, they thus gave as name to the representation in stone, in wood. b.1 c.Ap p.59 f.3 7. 8. ca zan moceltzin titeotl, ca zan moceltzin ticmopachilhuia, in ixquich in ilhuicac onoc, in tlalticpac, onoc: for thou only art god; for thou alone commandest all things which are in heaven, which are on earth. b.1 c.Ap p.61 f.3 9. 10. 11. 12. ca zan huel ce, in zan huel iceltzin, teyocoyani, ipalnemoani, nohuian, tlatoani: there is only one, the only creator by whom we live, ruler everywhere. b.1 c.Ap p.63 f.4 13. 14. q. n. toteucyoe, diose, ca zan moceltzin titeotl, titlatoani, that is to say,"o our lord god, thou alone art god, thou art ruler. b.1 c.Ap p.63 f.4 15. zan moceltzin momactzinco ca, in ixquich ittalo, in amo ittalo. in thy hand alone are all things visible [and] invisible. b.1 c.Ap p.63 f.4 16. zan moceltzin ticmotemaquilia. thou alone givest them. b.1 c.Ap p.67 f.4 17. ca zan huel iceltzin techmomaquilia, in tixquichti cemanahuac titlaca in yehhuatl, quiahuitl, inic mochihua in ixquich tonacayotl: for, indeed, only he himself giveth all of us men on earth this rain, wherewith is made all our sustenance. b.1 c.Ap p.68 f.4 18. in teotl, zan huel iceltzin ineixcahuilaxcatzin, in dios in teyocoyani, in ipalnemoani. the [name] god is exclusive to him himself, god the creator through whom there is life. b.1 c.Ap p.69 f.4 19. amo quimatia, ca zan huel iceltzin in ipalnemoani toteucyo dios, motepielia, motemanahuilia: they knew not that only he alone through whom there is life watcheth over men, defendeth men. b.1 c.Ap p.70 f.4 20. inin ca huel ic neci, ca zan iceltzin toteucyo dios, motepalehuiliani, motemanahuiliani: this is plain, that only our lord god himself customarily aideth men, customarily defendeth men. b.1 c.Ap p.70 f.4 21. auh ca monequi, zan huel iceltzin notzaloz, tlatlauhtiloz; in icuac itla techtequipachoa. and it is required that only he himself be called upon, be supplicated, when anything afflicteth us. b.1 c.Ap p.70 f.4 22. auh in axcan, ma huel xicmatican, zan huel iceltzin, icel teotl dios, motepatiliani, moteyolitiliani, but now, know well that only he alone, the true god, is the healer of men, the giver of life to men. b.1 c.Ap p.73 f.05 23. 24. in icuac itla topan mochihua, in tecoco, in tetolini, zan huel iceltzin, tlatlauhtiloz, temoloz, iuh ca in teotlatolli, in tlacpac omito. when something befalleth us -- pain, affliction -- he alone may be sought, prayed to, as is the word of god, as hath been said above. b.1 c.Ap p.73 f.05 25. za icel quiticac in teooctli: only he alone stood drinking the sacred pulque. b.2 c.38 p.207 f.13 26. auh macihuin zan icel motenehua, ca oncan quincemilnamiquia, in totochti, oocti, and although only he alone was named, yet at that time they remembered all the wine gods, who became the wine. b.4 c.5 p.17 f.2 27. intla ye aca axixmiqui, in zan icel yoaltica quiza: in ahzo metztona, anozo tlayohua: ihcuac quimottitia: if someone wished to urinate, and went forth quite alone at night, when, perhaps, the moon shone or it was dark, then they appeared to him. b.5 c.13 p.179 f.2 28. ca zan iceltzin huel oncan motlanecuiltia in tloque nahuaque, in titlacahuan: he alone, he who pervadeth all, titlacauan, may smell that place. b.5 c.3a p.184 f.2 29. za icel in itlan ca ticitl: tlein mach ic tlatlatlauhtitica, only the midwife was by her, because she was offering prayers. b.6 c.28 p.160 f.13 30. auh in aquin tachcauhchiuhtiaz, amo zan icel in quinonotzaya, in quicaquia tlatolli: mochtin in quinhuicaz, in quezquintin moyolehua: and he who was to become leader summoned not only those who heard the discourse; he would take all -- as many as wished [to go]. b.9 c.3 p.14 f.2 31. auh inic nemi, zan in ceceltin in nemi: amo oomentin momana, and thus they lived; each couple lived alone, not two couples together. b.10 c.29 p.172 f.10 32. auh zan icel, in cenca huel quilhuichihuiliaya in yocippa: in ihcuac quilhuiquixtiliaya, quitoa totopainalo, yocippa totoco, and only for this one did they observe the principal feast day; to iocippa, when they celebrated a feast for him, they said: "totopainalo, iocippa totoco." b.10 c.29 p.181 f.11 33. auh inic nemi: amo zan icel nemi, onca inamic: and thus does it live: not just by itself does it live; its mate is there. b.11 c.5 p.76 f.8 34. inic mitoa icel azcatl, zan icel in nenemi, amo ontemantinemi, amo no yeheteyetinemi, iuhquin oc cequin azcame, it is called "lone ant" because it goes about only alone; it does not go about in pairs, nor in threes, like the other ants. b.11 c.5 p.90 f.9 35. 36. in ochicahuaque: no tecuani, no iztlaque, no iuhquin tlatlahuic azcatl, zan huel no iuhqui in icel azcatl. when mature, they are also stingers, also venomous, also like the red ant, also something like the lone ant. b.11 c.5 p.90 f.9 37. auh inic nemi: amo huel icel nemi, zan ololiuhtinemi: and thus does it live: it cannot travel alone, but in a swarm. b.11 c.5 p.91 f.9 38. auh amo zan icel in nemi, amo zan centeyetinemi: mochipa onteme yetinemi, concahuitinemi in quimimilotinemi. and not alone does it go, not only one travels; they always travel in twos; they go sharing it as they go rolling it together. b.11 c.5 p.93 f.10 39. 40. zan icel moquetza in iamatlapal its leaves are set on only singly. b.11 c.7 p.155 f.15 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From Norbert.Francis at nau.edu Wed Sep 25 18:09:14 2013 From: Norbert.Francis at nau.edu (Norbert Francis) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 18:09:14 +0000 Subject: Announcement Message-ID: TV Malintzin, from Puebla and Tlaxcala states, announces the inauguration of a series of short video programs featuring the oral tradition of the Nahuatl-speaking communities from this region of Mexico. The videos are available at: http://www.youtube.com/user/TVMalintzin. Mainly in Nahuatl, the series currently includes traditional narrative and oral history. Future programs are planned that will incorporate poetry and other genres of interest to members of the communities and to investigators and students of the Nahuatl language and culture. For more information and to become a Friend of TV Malintzin, go to: https://www.facebook.com/pages/TV-Malintzin/609100105778209. The mission of TV Malintzin consists in the compilation and dissemination of this material of literary and artistic merit, founded over hundreds of years of creative language expression, now in gradual decline and likely in the future to be in danger of significant erosion in the highland communities of Puebla and Tlaxcala, along with the Nahuatl language itself. The following programs are now available: (1) Bienvenida al canal TV Malintzin (2) Entrevista con el Mtro. Carmen Zepeda: A?o 1923 (in Spanish) (3) In tomin (4) Coyotl huan Tlacuatl (5) In Pillo (primera versi?n) (6) Tesoro escondido de la Revoluci?n (7) Quehaceres cuando era ni?a (8) Historia de lo que pas? despu?s de la matanza de 1968 (9) La se?ora y su amante (10) El hombre que no quer?a poner ofrenda (11) El cielo emborregado (12) Historias de Chalma (13) La mujer nahual (14) In Pillo (segunda versi?n) (15) El nevero de la Malintzin (16) El hombre que no cre?a en las mujeres piedra encantadoras (17) El compadre de la muerte (18) Pastorela: La adoraci?n de los reyes _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Thu Sep 26 18:56:24 2013 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 13:56:24 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Estimados amigos del Foro, en muy usual encontrarse, con personas interesadas en el n?huatl que quieren aprender y conocerlo con mayor profundidad(lo cual me da mucha alegr?a) pero a la hora de pretender traducir frases, o conceptos del espa?ol al N?huatl, siempre se encuentran con un el desencanto de que al armarlo o traducirlo, normalmente no coincide con lo que quieren decir, y as? como en otros idiomas, yo recomiendo se familiaricen con los conceptos y frases en n?huatl y a partir de ah? intentar traducir, el presente comentario no es con el af?n de generar pol?mica ni ofender a ning?n compa?ero del foro, solo es un humilde comentario. Le deseo excelente tarde. xitikan kuale noknihuan. ontlahkuilo: Jacinto Acatecatl Namictle. > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 2 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 18:13:13 -0500 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 (Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino) > 2. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (Jacinto Acatecatl) > 3. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 (Jacinto Acatecatl) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 15:24:55 -0500 > From: Tomas Amando Amaya Aquino > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > Cc: Nahuat-lNahuat-l > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Saludos Juan, > Primero que nada es un muy buen enunciado en mexicano. Por tanto se pueden > hacer varias traducciones al espa?ol: > 1. "Nada m?s ella solita era la que hac?a todo el trabajo" > 2. "Todo el trabajo existente, lo hac?a ella solita y nadie m?s" > 3. "Todo ese trabajo, nom?s lo hac?a ella solita sin ayuda de nadie". > El problema de esta frase es que una traducci?n m?s literal suena mal en > espa?ol pues se trata de un enunciado con t?pico inicial seguido de foco > delimitado y especificado por ZAN > As?, en ingl?s se podr?a decir: > As for the whole work, she was the only one who carried it out. > Te voy a poner un ejemplo en el mexicano de Cuetzalan. Yn matahcihuat zah > tahcoyohuan in neci. Zayuh tahuananih in quitah. Tacah tihuinti xiauh > mochantzinco mah ayamo tahcoyohuan. Yn matahcihuat quinhuica ohuihcan zayuh > in ?n tahuananih, ?n tacah-cihuatohtocanih tahcoyohualquizah. > Sonar?a en espa?ol as?: La matlahcihuatl solamente se aparece a media > noche. S?lo pueden verla los borrachos. Si te emborrachas vete a tu casa > antes de la media noche. La matlacihuatl se lleva a lugares horribles s?lo > a los borrachos y mujeriegos que salen a la media noche. > > Nimitzyolmahtapalohua > > Tomas Amaya > > > 2013/9/21 > > > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh icel > > oquichihuaya" > > > > "Todo el trabajo > > ella sola lo hacia" > > > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > > > Tlazocamati > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nahuatl-request > > To: nahuatl > > Sent: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > Message-ID: <8D08371713A6059-1758-F3F3 at webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > thank you > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nahuatl-request > > To: nahuatl > > Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > > From: John Sullivan > > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > > John > > > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > > From: Javier Jim?nez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > < > > CAMYTJrE8a7LhczSpA8UOUcD7AEp67fzfMO9zEER441dHDkse3w at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de m? esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > > From: Javier Jim?nez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > < > > CAMYTJrHu63MnEshPRtyHyiFG2fy3DZCGDGgS5sn3ig0TsV3zbg at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de m? esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > *************************************** > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > *************************************** > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:40:34 -0500 > From: Jacinto Acatecatl > To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Inemilis no sihua, es como yo dir?a, pero cualquier otra variante debe ser correcto. > Atte. > Jacinto Acatecatl > > > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:00:02 -0500 > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > > From: John Sullivan > > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > > John > > > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > > From: Javier Jim?nez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de m? esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > > From: Javier Jim?nez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de m? esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > *************************************** > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:44:52 -0500 > From: Jacinto Acatecatl > To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales: pampa amo kipaktia tekuanimeh > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro: tikpia se itzcuitle(i)/ chichi. > > 3. El perro es de mi hija: itzcuintle iyaxkah no tak?h/ chichi i axkah no ichpokatl, este ?ltimo es para referisre a una hija adolecente. > > > > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 12:00:02 -0500 > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 2. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 3. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 (Frances Karttunen) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:20:16 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > > Message-ID: <8D08505F91F6B91-A40-A257 at webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > > En realidad quiero que me digan como se escriben esas frases en Nahuatl. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nahuatl-request > > To: nahuatl > > Sent: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 10:00 am > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > > > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 2. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > 3. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > 4. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > 5. Re: Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: (Michael McCafferty) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > > Message-ID: <8D0843D2F676E6F-1DF4-37E9 at Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:40:03 -0400 > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > > Message-ID: <20130920154003.sdw5mma6ssoc8s8c at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > Juan: > > > > ?De que habla usted? > > > > ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? > > > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > > > Gracias, > > > > Michael > > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > > > > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:55:46 -0400 > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > > Message-ID: <20130920155546.urd2acdngg0w40kw at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > > > > > 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > > > > > 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > nohueltiuh ichichi > > > > > > > > > > > Mah cualli ohtli > > > > > > > ihuan tehhuatl > > > > Michael > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:37:40 -0400 > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > > Message-ID: <20130920163740.3ydz39k7wwckkg0w at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > An off-list message to me made me realize that I didn't explain request > > from Juan. What I meant to say in my ahcualli Castellano was, why was a > > Nahuatl/Spanish speaker asking the list how to translate these things? > > > > I was interested in the experiment he was conducting, whatever it may be. > > > > :) > > > > Michael > > > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > > > > Juan: > > > > > > ?De que habla usted? > > > > > > ?Quiere usted que alguien traduce estas frases en espa?ol para usted? > > > > > > Por favor, explique sus palabras misteriosas. > > > > > > Gracias, > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > >> > > >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > >> > > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > >> > > >> > > >> Mah cualli ohtli > > >> > > >> juan Vazquez > > >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:16:55 -0400 > > From: Michael McCafferty > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Kenin moitoa ika Nahuatl: > > Message-ID: <20130920171655.7q5hkbe6pwkwkoo8 at webmail.iu.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" > > > > Mi espanol no es bueno. > > > > > > > > It just occurred to me that "hija" daughter! (Fr. fille) ...not "sister"... > > > > nohueltiuh is 'my (older) sister' > > > > nochpochtzin is 'my daughter' (the -chtz- collision becomes tz) > > > > so > > > > > > nochpochtzin ichichi > > > > > > Mille regrets, > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > > > > Quoting juanvazquezvaz at aol.com: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> 1, Pero no le gustan los animales > > > > > > Auh (Yeceh) ahmo tictlazohtla/ticcualitta yolcatl > > >> > > >> 2. Aunque tenemos un perro > > > > > > Immaneleh ticpiyah chichi > > > > > >> 3. El perro es de mi hija > > > > > > nohueltiuh ichichi > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Mah cualli ohtli > > >> > > > > > > ihuan tehhuatl > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > >> juan Vazquez > > >> juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 4 > > *************************************** > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:30:56 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > Message-ID: <8D085077692F54D-198C-A345 at webmail-m274.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan yeh icel oquichihuaya" > > > > "Todo el trabajo ella sola lo hacia" > > > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > > > Tlazocamati > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nahuatl-request > > To: nahuatl > > Sent: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > Message-ID: <8D08371713A6059-1758-F3F3 at webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > thank you > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nahuatl-request > > To: nahuatl > > Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 10:00 am > > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > > > > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. pregunta (juanvazquezvaz at aol.com) > > 2. Re: pregunta (John Sullivan) > > 3. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > > 4. Re: pregunta (Javier Jim?nez) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) > > From: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: <8D082BFFE77FFDE-1348-56EC at webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:38:41 -0500 > > From: John Sullivan > > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > Cc: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Moillia, "nocihuauh inemiliz". > > John > > > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 2:54 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:16:13 -0500 > > From: Javier Jim?nez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de m? esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > On Sep 18, 2013 4:10 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Es correcto decir: > > > > > > Inin inemeliz nocihuatl > > > > > > La vida de mi esposa. > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:05:41 -0500 > > From: Javier Jim?nez > > To: Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pregunta > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > N?huatl de Ozolco, Calpan, Puebla, M?xico > > > > I ni nemiliz no zioahoh > > La vida de m? esposa. > > > > Saludos > > Javier > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 2 > > *************************************** > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > *************************************** > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 10:13:00 -0400 > > From: Frances Karttunen > > To: juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > Cc: nahuatl discussion list > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 3 > > Message-ID: <15BAD3F2-1C37-40A7-8E0B-174C34A4981E at comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > > It conveys the sense of "solamente" which reinforces "icel" "sola." > > > > Fran Karttunen > > > > > > On Sep 21, 2013, at 1:30 PM, juanvazquezvaz at aol.com wrote: > > > > > In the statement: "Nochi in tequitl, zan > > > yeh icel oquichihuaya" > > > > > > "Todo el > > > trabajo ella sola lo hacia" > > > > > > What is the purpose of the word ZAN? > > > > > > Tlazocamati > > > > > > > > > > > > juan Vazquez > > > juanvazquezvaz at aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 311, Issue 5 > > *************************************** > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 2 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tekuani at hotmail.es Thu Sep 26 19:06:04 2013 From: tekuani at hotmail.es (Jacinto Acatecatl) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 14:06:04 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for sharing, mail, I'm glad ara spaces have to be kept Nahuatl culture, I will watch the channel and I'm glad to collaborate disposisi?n if required at any time. Jacinto Acatecatl N. Gracias por compartir, el correo, me da gusto que se habran espacios ara la cultura N?huatl, estar? atento al canal y con mucho gusto estoy en disposisi?n para colaborar si as? se requiere en cualquier momento. Jacinto Acatecatl N. > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 4 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 12:00:02 -0500 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Announcement (Norbert Francis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 18:09:14 +0000 > From: Norbert Francis > To: "Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Announcement > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > TV Malintzin, from Puebla and Tlaxcala states, announces the inauguration of a series of short video programs featuring the oral tradition of the Nahuatl-speaking communities from this region of Mexico. The videos are available at: http://www.youtube.com/user/TVMalintzin. Mainly in Nahuatl, the series currently includes traditional narrative and oral history. Future programs are planned that will incorporate poetry and other genres of interest to members of the communities and to investigators and students of the Nahuatl language and culture. For more information and to become a Friend of TV Malintzin, go to: > https://www.facebook.com/pages/TV-Malintzin/609100105778209. The mission of TV Malintzin consists in the compilation and dissemination of this material of literary and artistic merit, founded over hundreds of years of creative language expression, now in gradual decline and likely in the future to be in danger of significant erosion in the highland communities of Puebla and Tlaxcala, along with the Nahuatl language itself. > The following programs are now available: > (1) Bienvenida al canal TV Malintzin > (2) Entrevista con el Mtro. Carmen Zepeda: A?o 1923 (in Spanish) > (3) In tomin > (4) Coyotl huan Tlacuatl > (5) In Pillo (primera versi?n) > (6) Tesoro escondido de la Revoluci?n > (7) Quehaceres cuando era ni?a > (8) Historia de lo que pas? despu?s de la matanza de 1968 > (9) La se?ora y su amante > (10) El hombre que no quer?a poner ofrenda > (11) El cielo emborregado > (12) Historias de Chalma > (13) La mujer nahual > (14) In Pillo (segunda versi?n) > (15) El nevero de la Malintzin > (16) El hombre que no cre?a en las mujeres piedra encantadoras > (17) El compadre de la muerte > (18) Pastorela: La adoraci?n de los reyes > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 312, Issue 4 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl