From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Aug 4 20:16:19 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 16:16:19 -0400 Subject: Bloomington Nahuatl Circle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Bloomington Nahuatl Circle met on August 2, 2014. All members were present and punctual. Some consideration has been given to the suggestion that "Circle" be changed to "Triangle", but the implication that the change would have on possible membership has made it unlikely. Discussion ranged from matters of phonetics to numerous morphological issues (not a disguised mention of "problems", as in today's modern usage). The next meeting is scheduled for a warm period in 2015. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 17:13:34 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:13:34 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 344, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Joe, Thanks for the update, on the doings of the Bloomington circle. any chance we can see the minutes of the undoubtedly most interesting dicsussions? best, Magnus On 5 August 2014 12:00, wrote: > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Bloomington Nahuatl Circle (Campbell, R. Joe) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Campbell, R. Joe" > To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Cc: > Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 16:16:19 -0400 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Bloomington Nahuatl Circle > > > The Bloomington Nahuatl Circle met on August 2, 2014. All members were > present and punctual. Some consideration has been given to the suggestion > that "Circle" be changed to "Triangle", but the implication that the change > would have on possible membership has made it unlikely. > > Discussion ranged from matters of phonetics to numerous morphological > issues (not a disguised mention of "problems", as in today's modern usage). > > The next meeting is scheduled for a warm period in 2015. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 15 22:20:39 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 18:20:39 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 344, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus ihuan mochitin, Joe talked about the new developments in his 9000-year-old morphology project. Still hot. Pablo discussed his NEH grant/translation project. Very cool. I talked, as usual, about Algonquian verbs. Yawn. Delya, current Nahuatl grammar regent, was invited into the discussion. Despite rumors to the contrary, shes as real as it gets. All best, Michael Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > Dear Joe, > > Thanks for the update, on the doings of the Bloomington circle. any chance > we can see the minutes of the undoubtedly most interesting dicsussions? > > best, > Magnus > > > On 5 August 2014 12:00, wrote: > >> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Bloomington Nahuatl Circle (Campbell, R. Joe) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: "Campbell, R. Joe" >> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" >> Cc: >> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 16:16:19 -0400 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Bloomington Nahuatl Circle >> >> >> The Bloomington Nahuatl Circle met on August 2, 2014. All members were >> present and punctual. Some consideration has been given to the suggestion >> that "Circle" be changed to "Triangle", but the implication that the change >> would have on possible membership has made it unlikely. >> >> Discussion ranged from matters of phonetics to numerous morphological >> issues (not a disguised mention of "problems", as in today's modern usage). >> >> The next meeting is scheduled for a warm period in 2015. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Wed Aug 20 11:45:19 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 06:45:19 -0500 Subject: Help! Message-ID: Tocnihuan. Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? Namechtlazohcamati Tomas Amaya _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Aug 20 14:44:23 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 10:44:23 -0400 Subject: Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tomas, It looks like a miscopied "honey". ;-) I don't know your word, but it looks like it's ocmposed of ne-, the nonspecific reflexive object prefix and -cuitilli, something like an acknowledgment of one's own failings, or the act of being called something. Michael Quoting Tomas Amaya : > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Wed Aug 20 16:51:58 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 18:51:58 +0200 Subject: Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Tomas, dear listeros Most probably it has to be read /i:n-/ (poss. pref. 3 pl), + the noun stem ne-cui-ti-l(-li), which (again most probably) is the object noun of cui-tia (/kwi:-tia/), which with a reflexive prefix means « to confess » (ni-c-no-cui-tia in no-tla-‘tlaco-l « confieso mis pecados »). When derived from ditransitive verbs, object nouns usually keep the two object prefixes (of course indefinite), e.g. te-tla-mac-tli « gift », ne-tla-machti-l-li « wealth, prosperity » (mo-tla-mach-tia "he is rich, well-off"), ne-te-ilhui-l-li « complaint » (cf. mo-te-ilhuia « he complains to s.o. »). However, I have so far met two cases with ne- only : ne-mac-tli « gift » (often paired with axcaitl, or ilhuilli, ma’cehualli, cf. FC VI,39, VI,41), and ne-cuitlahui-l-li « mission, assignment » (cf. ni-c-no-cuitlahuia « I take care of it/him/her », FC VIII,67). When ne-mac-tli appears in the possessed form, the possessive prefix refers to the beneficiary (FC I,48 In-nemac catca in octli « Their reward was the pulque »), while the possessor of te-tla-mac-tli in the donor, cf. i-te-tla-mac-tzin in Dios « God’s gifts ». Ne-cui-ti-l-li, which so far was unknown to me, could be a third example of the same morphological pattern. The meaning would then be « confession », and it would be great for this hypothesis if, in the text, the possessive prefix in- referred to the priests (who hear, or « receive » the confession) rather than to the penitent (who say, or « give » their confession to the priest) : this would be congruent with the meaning of in-nemac. So I hope that this is the case. If not, I will not hang myself, and try to find another explanation. Best Michel Launey > Message du 20/08/14 14:26 > De : "Tomas Amaya" > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Wed Aug 20 17:31:06 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:31:06 +0200 Subject: Help! (second thoughts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thinking more about it. The morphological pattern seems pretty clear (ne-cuitla-hui-l-li), as I told in my preceding message. However, I'm bothered by the context (why would the priests "make" confessions in august? So my second hypothesis is: ni-c-no-cuitia, which for obvious reasons mostly appears in the corpus with the meaning "I confess sth.", actually has another (probably anterior) meaning such as "fulfill a task" or something like that. Any hints? Best M.L. > Message du 20/08/14 14:26 > De : "Tomas Amaya" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie à : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] Help! > > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Wed Aug 20 17:38:06 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:38:06 +0200 Subject: Help! (oops!) Message-ID: Sorry for the mistake in my preceding (and second) message Of course we speak about ne-cuiti-l-li, not ne-cuitlahui-l-li But after all this could come from a subliminal hypothesis, because in-ne-cuiti-l (which is otherwise attested in the corpus) could fit for the meaning. My shame is great, and I swear this is my last message for today M.L. Thinking more about it. The morphological pattern seems pretty clear (ne-cuitla-hui-l-li), as I told in my preceding message. However, I'm bothered by the context (why would the priests "make" confessions in august? So my second hypothesis is: ni-c-no-cuitia, which for obvious reasons mostly appears in the corpus with the meaning "I confess sth.", actually has another (probably anterior) meaning such as "fulfill a task" or something like that. Any hints? Best M.L. > Message du 20/08/14 14:26 > De : "Tomas Amaya" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie à : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] Help! > > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Thu Aug 21 05:37:16 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:37:16 -0500 Subject: Help! (second thoughts) In-Reply-To: <140019121.15036.1408555866685.JavaMail.www@wwinf1j21> Message-ID: Michael McCafferty, M Launey, thank you for your answers. _______________________________________________ Dear Michel: You are on the way. Your statement “fulfill a task” makes a lot of sense! I have talked with several Nahuatl-speaking friends (my wife among them) and the conclusions are as follows: 1. The verbal particle “cui” is meaningful: he takes, he uses, he takes out. This way, when you say “nicnoyolcuitía notlahtlacol” you are meaning: “I am making myself to take out my sins from my heart”; in Spanish: yo me hago sacar mis pecados desde el corazón ("je suis amené à extraire mes pëchers du fond de mon coeur"???) 2. (To use), example (nahuat): Yn nehhua, ynic nitatoca ahmo niccui tepoz, cuouhpizoh in niccui. Translation: In my case, when I sow, I do not use an iron tool, I use rather a sharp stick. 3. In some regions “mocuitía” may mean “he takes himself as”, “he recognizes himself as”, “he names himself as”, e.g.: “on tacat chanchihua ateno, mocuitía Cuamait”. Translation: the man who has his house near the river gives himself the name of Cuamait” 4. If you think in nahuat, “mocuitia” may mean: “he makes use of himself”; but in Zacatlan the nahuatl-speaking people go further: “nimocuicuitia” means: “I am very busy” i.e. “I am making use of myself a lot”. 5. This way, “nonecuitil” means “my work/duty (being performed or to be performed)”, i. e. according to you: “my task, my task being fulfilled, to be fulfilled (depending on context)” Eureka! Thank you again. Tomas Amaya Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:31:06 +0200 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: re: [Nahuat-l] Help! (second thoughts) Thinking more about it. The morphological pattern seems pretty clear (ne-cuitla-hui-l-li), as I told in my preceding message. However, I'm bothered by the context (why would the priests "make" confessions in august? So my second hypothesis is: ni-c-no-cuitia, which for obvious reasons mostly appears in the corpus with the meaning "I confess sth.", actually has another (probably anterior) meaning such as "fulfill a task" or something like that. Any hints? Best M.L. > Message du 20/08/14 14:26 > De : "Tomas Amaya" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie à : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] Help! > > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From yekeus at gmail.com Thu Aug 21 17:12:09 2014 From: yekeus at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Javier_Jim=C3=A9nez?=) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:12:09 -0500 Subject: Help! Message-ID: yektli: in tlahtohli YPAN AGOSTO QUICHIUASQUE, QUITEQUIPANOSQUE yN NECUITIL Tlah tik ahna, tlen kahzihkamahtih in to kaliknioan tlen txantih ikxitla in ziohapiltepetl ipan OZOLCO, CALPAN, PUEBLA kihtoah ken oitz: ipan Agosto kih txioazke, ki tekipanozke in nekoitil kani in tlahtoli in nekoitil nek kana in tlahtohli NEKTLI koit kana in tlahtohli KOITIOH il ki tlamiltia oan kihtoznehki tlen motxioaz. tla la metx paleoiah la metx tlahpaloa Javier ------------------------------------------------------------------ buenos días: la frase YPAN AGOSTO QUICHIUASQUE, QUITEQUIPANOSQUE yN NECUITIL. tomando el contexto del habla nahuatl de Ozolco, Municipio de Calpan, en el Estado de Puebla en México, comunidad nahuatl junto al volcan Ixtacciuatl sera la siguiente: EN AGOSTO PRODUCIRÁN, TRABAJARÁN "EL PULQUE/ LA EXTRACCION DE PULQUE" nec ~ nectli = pulque cuit ~ cuitioh/acuitio/ = traer un liquido il ~ ihyoanil(aspiración)/cocoxcatil(enfermiso)/ihnecuitil(aroma/olfaterar) = aplicativo espero que ayude. saludos Javier 2014-08-20 6:45 GMT-05:00 Tomas Amaya : > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Aug 21 22:11:56 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 00:11:56 +0200 Subject: Help! (second thoughts) In-Reply-To: <140019121.15036.1408555866685.JavaMail.www@wwinf1j21> Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, Este verano en Yale, una de mis alumnas, Nicole Hughes, estudiante de doctorado en Historia del Arte en la U de Chicago, trajo una serie de documentos relacionados con presentaciones teatrales de tipo exemplum realizadas por comunidades indígenas. El nombre para estas representaciones era neixcuitilli, aunque la palabra se refiere más, creo, a la moraleja de la obra. No sé si tiene algo que ver con el contexto del documento referido en esta discusión. John On 20 Aug 2014, at 19:31, M Launey wrote: > Thinking more about it. > The morphological pattern seems pretty clear (ne-cuitla-hui-l-li), as I told in my preceding message. > > However, I'm bothered by the context (why would the priests "make" confessions in august? > > So my second hypothesis is: ni-c-no-cuitia, which for obvious reasons mostly appears in the corpus with the meaning "I confess sth.", actually has another (probably anterior) meaning such as "fulfill a task" or something like that. Any hints? > > Best > > M.L. > >> Message du 20/08/14 14:26 >> De : "Tomas Amaya" >> A : "list nahuatl discussion" >> Copie à : >> Objet : [Nahuat-l] Help! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Tocnihuan. >> Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". >> It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. >> The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". >> It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? >> >> Namechtlazohcamati >> >> Tomas Amaya >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Aug 27 21:32:43 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 17:32:43 -0400 Subject: Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Tomas, Michael, Michel, John, ihuan oc cequi listeros, In response to Tomas's question about "necuitil", I looked through Molina for "cui" in combination with one of the reflexive prefixes 'mo' or 'ne'. By looking at this more comprehensive list, one can get some insight into the central meaning of the reflexive use of cui rather than focusing on one particular Spanish equivalent. I have removed a few irrelevant (to me) examples. Comments on codes: 55m Molina, 1555 (S/N) 71m1 Molina, 1571 S/N 71m2 Molina, 1571 N/S The symbol '=' precedes a prefix which has been postposed in order to facilitate alphabetization of the entries. Morphological codes are enclosed in "[...]". Certain codes are "re-spelled" in order to provide for their more logical sorting: p51 tla- p52 te- p53 ne- p54 mo- ben benefactive (sometimes referred to as "applicative") p11 1st person singular subject prefix p12 2nd person singular subject prefix Joe * cui p53 *** cuicuililiztli =ne encarecimiento tal. [p53-dupl- cui-ben-liz +no.haplo] 71m1-092. cuicuililiztli =ne encarecimiento tal. [p53-dupl- cui-ben-liz +no.haplo] 55m-7. cuicuililiztli =ne regalo y buen tratamiento de si mesmo. [p53-dupl-cui-ben-liz +no.haplo] 71m2-11. cuilli =netla emprestada cosa assi. [p53-p51-cui-l1] 71m1-092. cuilli =netla emprestada cosa assi. [p53-p51-cui-l1] 55m-7. cuilli =netla prestido tal. [p53-p51-cui-l1] 71m1-172. cuilli =netla prestido tal. [p53-p51-cui-l1] 55m-16. cuiloni =netla cosa que se tomo prestada [p53- p51-cui-lo:2-ni1] 71m2-12. cuiloni =netla prestada cosa assi. [p53-p51-cui-lo:2- ni1] 71m1-172. cuiloni =netla prestada cosa assi. [p53-p51-cui-lo:2- ni1] 55m-16. cuitiliztli =ahne negacion tal. [ah1-p53-cui-caus02- liz] 71m1-161. cuitiliztli =ahne negacion tal. [ah1-p53-cui-caus02- liz] 55m-14. cuitiliztli =juramentotica ahne negacion enesta manera. [++juramento-ti1-ca2 ah1-p53-cui-caus02-liz +spanish +phrase] 71m1-161. cuitiliztli =juramentotica ahne negacion en esta manera. [++juramento-ti1-ca2 ah1-p53-cui-caus02- liz +spanish +phrase] 55m-14. cuitiliztli =ne confession o conocimiento delo que alguno hizo o dixo, o corrimiento del que se corre de alguna cosa que le dizen. [p53-cui-caus02-liz] 71m2-11. cuitiliztli =ne confession tal. [p53-cui-caus02-liz] 55m-3. cuitiliztli =ne conocimiento tal. [p53-cui-caus02- liz] 55m-3. ixcuitilamatl =ne copia o memoria. [p53-i:xtli-cui- caus02-l1-a:matl] 55m-3. ixcuitiliztli =ne exemplo que tomamos de otros. [p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-liz] 71m2-11. ixcuitilli =ne dechado, o exemplo. [p53-i:xtli-cui- caus02-l1] 71m2-11. ixcuitilli =ne exemplo o dechado de donde sacamos. [p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1] 71m1-112. ixcuitilli =ne exemplo o dechado de donde sacamos. [p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1] 55m-9. ixcuitilli =ne exemplo que tomamos de otro. [p53- i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1] 55m-9. ixcuitilli =ne muestra o dechado. [p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1] 71m1-161. neixcuitil =no mi dechado, o exemplo. [poss-p53-i:xtli- cui-caus02-l1] 71m2-12. neixcuitil =to dechado y exemplo nuestro. [poss-p53- i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1] 71m2-25. neixcuitil itech ticcuiz =mo tomaras dello exemplo. [p54-p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1-poss-tech1-cui-z +out.rig +phrase] 71m2-10. neixcuitilhuan =to son exemplo y dechado nuestro. s. los sanctos. [poss-p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1-plur04] 71m2-25. netlacuicauh =no= deudor mio por lo quele preste. [poss-p53-p51-cui-ca:5-uh] 71m2-12. netlacuicauh =no deudor por lo que preste. [poss- p53-p51-cui-ca:5-uh] 71m1-081. netlacuilli =emperador emprestido de reyes. [++emperador p53-p51-cui-l1 +spanish +phrase] 71m1-092. netlacuilli =emperador emprestido de reyes. [++emperador p53-p51-cui-l1 +spanish +phrase] 55m-7. netlacuilquixtia =nino=oninonetlacuilquixtih desempe¤arse, o salir de deuda. [p11-p54-p53-p51-cui-l1-qui:za-caus02 +z>x] 71m2-12. netlacuilquixtia =nino desempe¤arse. [p11- p54-p53-p51-cui-l1-qui:za-caus02 +z>x] 71m1-072. tech neixcuitiliztli =te remedamiento assi. [poss-tech1 p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-liz +out.rig +phrase] 71m1-182. tech neixcuitiliztli =te remedamiento assi. [poss-tech1 p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-liz +out.rig +phrase] 55m-17. tech nenemilizcuitiliztli =te remedamiento assi. [poss-tech1 p53-nemi-liz-cui-caus02-liz +out.rig +phrase] 55m-17. tlalia =cualli neixcuitilli teixpan nic edificar a otros dandoles buen exemplo. [cualli p53- i:xtli-cui-v04-caus08=0-l1 poss-i:xtli-pan p11-p33-tla:lia: +phrase] 71m1-091. tlalia =cualli neixcuitilli teixpan nic | cualli neixcuitilli teixpan nictlalia || busca edificar . hedificar. [cualli p53-i:xtli-cui-v04-caus08=0-l1 poss-i:xtli-pan p11-p33-tla:lia:] 71m1-131. yolcuitiliztli =ne confession. [p53-yo:lli-cui- caus02-liz] 71m2-11. yolcuitiliztli =ne confession assi. [p53-yo:lli- cui-caus02-liz] 55m-3. yolcuitilo =ne=oneyolcuitiloc todos se confiessan. [p53-yo:lli-cui-caus02-lo:2] 71m2-11. * cui p54 *** cui =motla adeudado. [p54-p51-cui] 55m-001. cui =motla adeudado. [p54-p51-cui] 71m2-10. cui =motla adeudado. [p54-p51-cui] 71m1-012. cuia =ninotla=oninotlacuih tomar algo prestado. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4] 71m2-20. cuia =ninotla adeudarse tomando prestado. [p11-p54- p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4] 55m-001. cuia =ninotla adeudarse tomando prestado. [p11-p54- p51-cui-ben] 71m1-012. cuia =ninotla emprestado tomar. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4a] 71m1-092. cuia =ninotla emprestado tomar. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4] 55m-7. cuia =ninotla prestado tomar. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4a] 71m1-172. cuia =ninotla tomar prestado. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4] 71m1-201. cuicuilia =nino=oninocuicuilih hazerse de rogar, o negar el debito la muger, o^resistir. [p11-p54- dupl-cui-ben] 71m2-5. cuitia =ahnicno negar. [ah1-p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02] 71m1-161. cuitia =ahnicno negar. [ah1-p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02] 55m-14. cuitia =aoc nicno desdezirse delo que dixo no conociendo o negando auerlo dicho. [ah1-oc p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02] 55m-5. cuitia =juramentotica ahnicno negar con juramento. [++juramento-ti1-ca2 ah1-p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02 +spanish +phrase] 71m1-161. cuitia =juramentotica ahnicno negar con juramento. [++juramento-ti1-ca2 ah1-p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02 +spanish +phrase] 55m-14. cuitia =nicno=onicnocuitih conocer, o confessar a otro por se¤or, o conocer el delicto que cometio. [p11- p33-p54-cui-caus02] 71m2-5. cuitia =nicno confessar a dios por dios. [p11-p33-p54- cui-caus02] 55m-3. cuitia =nicno confessar en juizio. [p11-p33-p54-cui- caus02] 55m-3. cuitia =zan niman ahmo nicno negar de todo en todo. [zan niman ah1-mo: p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02 +ret.n +phrase] 71m1-161. cuitia =zan niman ahmo nicno negar de todo en todo. [zan niman ah1-mo: p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02 +ret.n +phrase] 55m-14. cuitia notlahtlacol =nicno conocer la culpa. [p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02 poss-p51-ihtlacahui-caus06-l1] 55m- 3. cuitih =quimo conocido assi. [p33-p54-cui-caus02-prt1] 55m-3. cuitih =quimo el que confiessa y conoce que hizo, o dixo algo. [p33-p54-cui-caus02-prt1] 71m2-15. cuitihuetzi =nino=oninocuitihuetz tornar, o boluer sobresi, o espantarse del trueno o de cosa semejante. [p11-p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 71m2-5. cuitihuetzi =nino atronarse el hombre. [p11-p54- cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 55m-1. cuitihuetzi =nino atronarse o espantarse del trueno o de cosa semejante. [p11-p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 71m1-032. cuitihuetzi =nino embazar y marauillarse de espanto. [p11-p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 71m1-091. cuitihuetzi =nino embazarse marauillar#se de espanto. [p11-p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 55m-7. cuitihuetzi =nino retornar en si. [p11-p54-cui- prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 71m1-182. cuitihuetzi =nino retornar en si. [p11-p54-cui- prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 55m-17. cuitihuetzi =nino temblar o estremecerse todo el cuerpo de miedo, o tomando me grima. [p11-p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 71m1-201. cuitihuetzini =mo atonito, o amortecido de espanto. [p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi-ni1 aux03] 71m2-10. cuitihuetzini =mo pasmado. [p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1- huetzi-ni1 aux03] 71m1-162. cuitihuetzini =mo pasmado. [p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1- huetzi-ni1 aux03] 55m-15. cuitihuetzqui =mo atronado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 55m-1. cuitihuetzqui =mo atronado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 71m1-032. cuitihuetzqui =mo el que torna en si enmendando la vida. [p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 71m2-10. cuitihuetzqui =mo embazado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 71m1-091. cuitihuetzqui =mo embazado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 55m-7. cuitihuetzqui =mo retornado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 71m1-182. cuitihuetzqui =mo retornado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 55m-17. cuiya =ninotla prestado tomar. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4] 55m-16. neixcuitil itech ticcuiz =mo tomaras dello exemplo. [p54-p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1-poss-tech1-cui-z +out.rig +phrase] 71m2-10. nemilizcui =tetech nino remedar. [poss- tech1 p11-p54-nemi-liz-cui +out.rig +phrase] 71m1-182. netlacuilquixtia =nino=oninonetlacuilquixtih desempe¤arse, o salir de deuda. [p11- p54-p53-p51-cui-l1-qui:za-caus02 +z>x] 71m2-12. netlacuilquixtia =nino desempe¤arse. [p11- p54-p53-p51-cui-l1-qui:za-caus02 +z>x] 71m1-072. tech ninonemilizcui =te remedar. [poss-tech1 p11-p54-nemi-liz-cui +out.rig +phrase] 55m-17. yolcuitia =nino=oninoyolcuitih confessarse. [p11-p54-yo:lli-cui-caus02] 71m2-7. yolcuitia =nino confessarse. [p11-p54-yo:lli-cui- caus02] 55m-3. yolcuitihqui =mo confessado. [p54-yo:lli-cui-caus02- prt1-c2] 55m-3. yolcuitihqui =mo penitente confessado. [p54-yo:lli- cui-caus02-prt1-c2] 71m2-10. Quoting Tomas Amaya : > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Aug 4 20:16:19 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 16:16:19 -0400 Subject: Bloomington Nahuatl Circle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Bloomington Nahuatl Circle met on August 2, 2014. All members were present and punctual. Some consideration has been given to the suggestion that "Circle" be changed to "Triangle", but the implication that the change would have on possible membership has made it unlikely. Discussion ranged from matters of phonetics to numerous morphological issues (not a disguised mention of "problems", as in today's modern usage). The next meeting is scheduled for a warm period in 2015. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 17:13:34 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:13:34 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 344, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Joe, Thanks for the update, on the doings of the Bloomington circle. any chance we can see the minutes of the undoubtedly most interesting dicsussions? best, Magnus On 5 August 2014 12:00, wrote: > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Bloomington Nahuatl Circle (Campbell, R. Joe) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Campbell, R. Joe" > To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Cc: > Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 16:16:19 -0400 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Bloomington Nahuatl Circle > > > The Bloomington Nahuatl Circle met on August 2, 2014. All members were > present and punctual. Some consideration has been given to the suggestion > that "Circle" be changed to "Triangle", but the implication that the change > would have on possible membership has made it unlikely. > > Discussion ranged from matters of phonetics to numerous morphological > issues (not a disguised mention of "problems", as in today's modern usage). > > The next meeting is scheduled for a warm period in 2015. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 15 22:20:39 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 18:20:39 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 344, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus ihuan mochitin, Joe talked about the new developments in his 9000-year-old morphology project. Still hot. Pablo discussed his NEH grant/translation project. Very cool. I talked, as usual, about Algonquian verbs. Yawn. Delya, current Nahuatl grammar regent, was invited into the discussion. Despite rumors to the contrary, she?s as real as it gets. All best, Michael Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > Dear Joe, > > Thanks for the update, on the doings of the Bloomington circle. any chance > we can see the minutes of the undoubtedly most interesting dicsussions? > > best, > Magnus > > > On 5 August 2014 12:00, wrote: > >> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Bloomington Nahuatl Circle (Campbell, R. Joe) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: "Campbell, R. Joe" >> To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" >> Cc: >> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 16:16:19 -0400 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] Bloomington Nahuatl Circle >> >> >> The Bloomington Nahuatl Circle met on August 2, 2014. All members were >> present and punctual. Some consideration has been given to the suggestion >> that "Circle" be changed to "Triangle", but the implication that the change >> would have on possible membership has made it unlikely. >> >> Discussion ranged from matters of phonetics to numerous morphological >> issues (not a disguised mention of "problems", as in today's modern usage). >> >> The next meeting is scheduled for a warm period in 2015. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Wed Aug 20 11:45:19 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 06:45:19 -0500 Subject: Help! Message-ID: Tocnihuan. Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? Namechtlazohcamati Tomas Amaya _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Aug 20 14:44:23 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 10:44:23 -0400 Subject: Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tomas, It looks like a miscopied "honey". ;-) I don't know your word, but it looks like it's ocmposed of ne-, the nonspecific reflexive object prefix and -cuitilli, something like an acknowledgment of one's own failings, or the act of being called something. Michael Quoting Tomas Amaya : > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Wed Aug 20 16:51:58 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 18:51:58 +0200 Subject: Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Tomas, dear listeros Most probably it has to be read /i:n-/ (poss. pref. 3 pl), + the noun stem ne-cui-ti-l(-li), which (again most probably) is the object noun of cui-tia (/kwi:-tia/), which with a reflexive prefix means ??to confess?? (ni-c-no-cui-tia in no-tla-?tlaco-l ??confieso mis pecados??). When derived from ditransitive verbs, object nouns usually keep the two object prefixes (of course indefinite), e.g. te-tla-mac-tli ??gift??, ne-tla-machti-l-li ??wealth, prosperity?? (mo-tla-mach-tia "he is rich, well-off"), ne-te-ilhui-l-li ??complaint?? (cf. mo-te-ilhuia ??he complains to s.o.??). However, I have so far met two cases with ne- only?: ne-mac-tli ??gift?? (often paired with axcaitl, or ilhuilli, ma?cehualli, cf. FC VI,39, VI,41), and ne-cuitlahui-l-li ??mission, assignment?? (cf. ni-c-no-cuitlahuia ??I take care of it/him/her??, FC VIII,67). When ne-mac-tli appears in the possessed form, the possessive prefix refers to the beneficiary (FC I,48 In-nemac catca in octli ??Their reward was the pulque??), while the possessor of te-tla-mac-tli in the donor, cf. i-te-tla-mac-tzin in Dios ??God?s gifts??. Ne-cui-ti-l-li, which so far was unknown to me, could be a third example of the same morphological pattern. The meaning would then be ??confession??, and it would be great for this hypothesis if, in the text, the possessive prefix in- referred to the priests (who hear, or ??receive?? the confession) rather than to the penitent (who say, or ??give?? their confession to the priest)?: this would be congruent with the meaning of in-nemac. So I hope that this is the case. If not, I will not hang myself, and try to find another explanation. Best Michel Launey > Message du 20/08/14 14:26 > De : "Tomas Amaya" > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Wed Aug 20 17:31:06 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:31:06 +0200 Subject: Help! (second thoughts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thinking more about it. The morphological pattern seems pretty clear (ne-cuitla-hui-l-li), as I told in my preceding message. However, I'm bothered by the context (why would the priests "make" confessions in august? So my second hypothesis is: ni-c-no-cuitia, which for obvious reasons mostly appears in the corpus with the meaning "I confess sth.", actually has another (probably anterior) meaning such as "fulfill a task" or something like that. Any hints? Best M.L. > Message du 20/08/14 14:26 > De : "Tomas Amaya" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie ? : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] Help! > > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Wed Aug 20 17:38:06 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:38:06 +0200 Subject: Help! (oops!) Message-ID: Sorry for the mistake in my preceding (and second) message Of course we speak about ne-cuiti-l-li, not ne-cuitlahui-l-li But after all this could come from a subliminal hypothesis, because in-ne-cuiti-l (which is otherwise attested in the corpus) could fit for the meaning. My shame is great, and I swear this is my last message for today M.L. ? ? Thinking more about it. The morphological pattern seems pretty clear (ne-cuitla-hui-l-li), as I told in my preceding message. However, I'm bothered by the context (why would the priests "make" confessions in august? So my second hypothesis is: ni-c-no-cuitia, which for obvious reasons mostly appears in the corpus with the meaning "I confess sth.", actually has another (probably anterior) meaning such as "fulfill a task" or something like that. Any hints? Best M.L. > Message du 20/08/14 14:26 > De : "Tomas Amaya" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie ? : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] Help! > > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Thu Aug 21 05:37:16 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:37:16 -0500 Subject: Help! (second thoughts) In-Reply-To: <140019121.15036.1408555866685.JavaMail.www@wwinf1j21> Message-ID: Michael McCafferty, M Launey, thank you for your answers. _______________________________________________ Dear Michel: You are on the way. Your statement ?fulfill a task? makes a lot of sense! I have talked with several Nahuatl-speaking friends (my wife among them) and the conclusions are as follows: 1. The verbal particle ?cui? is meaningful: he takes, he uses, he takes out. This way, when you say ?nicnoyolcuit?a notlahtlacol? you are meaning: ?I am making myself to take out my sins from my heart?; in Spanish: yo me hago sacar mis pecados desde el coraz?n ("je suis amen? ? extraire mes p?chers du fond de mon coeur"???) 2. (To use), example (nahuat): Yn nehhua, ynic nitatoca ahmo niccui tepoz, cuouhpizoh in niccui. Translation: In my case, when I sow, I do not use an iron tool, I use rather a sharp stick. 3. In some regions ?mocuit?a? may mean ?he takes himself as?, ?he recognizes himself as?, ?he names himself as?, e.g.: ?on tacat chanchihua ateno, mocuit?a Cuamait?. Translation: the man who has his house near the river gives himself the name of Cuamait? 4. If you think in nahuat, ?mocuitia? may mean: ?he makes use of himself?; but in Zacatlan the nahuatl-speaking people go further: ?nimocuicuitia? means: ?I am very busy? i.e. ?I am making use of myself a lot?. 5. This way, ?nonecuitil? means ?my work/duty (being performed or to be performed)?, i. e. according to you: ?my task, my task being fulfilled, to be fulfilled (depending on context)? Eureka! Thank you again. Tomas Amaya Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:31:06 +0200 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Subject: re: [Nahuat-l] Help! (second thoughts) Thinking more about it. The morphological pattern seems pretty clear (ne-cuitla-hui-l-li), as I told in my preceding message. However, I'm bothered by the context (why would the priests "make" confessions in august? So my second hypothesis is: ni-c-no-cuitia, which for obvious reasons mostly appears in the corpus with the meaning "I confess sth.", actually has another (probably anterior) meaning such as "fulfill a task" or something like that. Any hints? Best M.L. > Message du 20/08/14 14:26 > De : "Tomas Amaya" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie ? : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] Help! > > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From yekeus at gmail.com Thu Aug 21 17:12:09 2014 From: yekeus at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Javier_Jim=C3=A9nez?=) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:12:09 -0500 Subject: Help! Message-ID: yektli: in tlahtohli YPAN AGOSTO QUICHIUASQUE, QUITEQUIPANOSQUE yN NECUITIL Tlah tik ahna, tlen kahzihkamahtih in to kaliknioan tlen txantih ikxitla in ziohapiltepetl ipan OZOLCO, CALPAN, PUEBLA kihtoah ken oitz: ipan Agosto kih txioazke, ki tekipanozke in nekoitil kani in tlahtoli in nekoitil nek kana in tlahtohli NEKTLI koit kana in tlahtohli KOITIOH il ki tlamiltia oan kihtoznehki tlen motxioaz. tla la metx paleoiah la metx tlahpaloa Javier ------------------------------------------------------------------ buenos d?as: la frase YPAN AGOSTO QUICHIUASQUE, QUITEQUIPANOSQUE yN NECUITIL. tomando el contexto del habla nahuatl de Ozolco, Municipio de Calpan, en el Estado de Puebla en M?xico, comunidad nahuatl junto al volcan Ixtacciuatl sera la siguiente: EN AGOSTO PRODUCIR?N, TRABAJAR?N "EL PULQUE/ LA EXTRACCION DE PULQUE" nec ~ nectli = pulque cuit ~ cuitioh/acuitio/ = traer un liquido il ~ ihyoanil(aspiraci?n)/cocoxcatil(enfermiso)/ihnecuitil(aroma/olfaterar) = aplicativo espero que ayude. saludos Javier 2014-08-20 6:45 GMT-05:00 Tomas Amaya : > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Aug 21 22:11:56 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 00:11:56 +0200 Subject: Help! (second thoughts) In-Reply-To: <140019121.15036.1408555866685.JavaMail.www@wwinf1j21> Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, Este verano en Yale, una de mis alumnas, Nicole Hughes, estudiante de doctorado en Historia del Arte en la U de Chicago, trajo una serie de documentos relacionados con presentaciones teatrales de tipo exemplum realizadas por comunidades ind?genas. El nombre para estas representaciones era neixcuitilli, aunque la palabra se refiere m?s, creo, a la moraleja de la obra. No s? si tiene algo que ver con el contexto del documento referido en esta discusi?n. John On 20 Aug 2014, at 19:31, M Launey wrote: > Thinking more about it. > The morphological pattern seems pretty clear (ne-cuitla-hui-l-li), as I told in my preceding message. > > However, I'm bothered by the context (why would the priests "make" confessions in august? > > So my second hypothesis is: ni-c-no-cuitia, which for obvious reasons mostly appears in the corpus with the meaning "I confess sth.", actually has another (probably anterior) meaning such as "fulfill a task" or something like that. Any hints? > > Best > > M.L. > >> Message du 20/08/14 14:26 >> De : "Tomas Amaya" >> A : "list nahuatl discussion" >> Copie ? : >> Objet : [Nahuat-l] Help! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Tocnihuan. >> Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". >> It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. >> The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". >> It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? >> >> Namechtlazohcamati >> >> Tomas Amaya >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Aug 27 21:32:43 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 17:32:43 -0400 Subject: Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Tomas, Michael, Michel, John, ihuan oc cequi listeros, In response to Tomas's question about "necuitil", I looked through Molina for "cui" in combination with one of the reflexive prefixes 'mo' or 'ne'. By looking at this more comprehensive list, one can get some insight into the central meaning of the reflexive use of cui rather than focusing on one particular Spanish equivalent. I have removed a few irrelevant (to me) examples. Comments on codes: 55m Molina, 1555 (S/N) 71m1 Molina, 1571 S/N 71m2 Molina, 1571 N/S The symbol '=' precedes a prefix which has been postposed in order to facilitate alphabetization of the entries. Morphological codes are enclosed in "[...]". Certain codes are "re-spelled" in order to provide for their more logical sorting: p51 tla- p52 te- p53 ne- p54 mo- ben benefactive (sometimes referred to as "applicative") p11 1st person singular subject prefix p12 2nd person singular subject prefix Joe * cui p53 *** cuicuililiztli =ne encarecimiento tal. [p53-dupl- cui-ben-liz +no.haplo] 71m1-092. cuicuililiztli =ne encarecimiento tal. [p53-dupl- cui-ben-liz +no.haplo] 55m-7. cuicuililiztli =ne regalo y buen tratamiento de si mesmo. [p53-dupl-cui-ben-liz +no.haplo] 71m2-11. cuilli =netla emprestada cosa assi. [p53-p51-cui-l1] 71m1-092. cuilli =netla emprestada cosa assi. [p53-p51-cui-l1] 55m-7. cuilli =netla prestido tal. [p53-p51-cui-l1] 71m1-172. cuilli =netla prestido tal. [p53-p51-cui-l1] 55m-16. cuiloni =netla cosa que se tomo prestada [p53- p51-cui-lo:2-ni1] 71m2-12. cuiloni =netla prestada cosa assi. [p53-p51-cui-lo:2- ni1] 71m1-172. cuiloni =netla prestada cosa assi. [p53-p51-cui-lo:2- ni1] 55m-16. cuitiliztli =ahne negacion tal. [ah1-p53-cui-caus02- liz] 71m1-161. cuitiliztli =ahne negacion tal. [ah1-p53-cui-caus02- liz] 55m-14. cuitiliztli =juramentotica ahne negacion enesta manera. [++juramento-ti1-ca2 ah1-p53-cui-caus02-liz +spanish +phrase] 71m1-161. cuitiliztli =juramentotica ahne negacion en esta manera. [++juramento-ti1-ca2 ah1-p53-cui-caus02- liz +spanish +phrase] 55m-14. cuitiliztli =ne confession o conocimiento delo que alguno hizo o dixo, o corrimiento del que se corre de alguna cosa que le dizen. [p53-cui-caus02-liz] 71m2-11. cuitiliztli =ne confession tal. [p53-cui-caus02-liz] 55m-3. cuitiliztli =ne conocimiento tal. [p53-cui-caus02- liz] 55m-3. ixcuitilamatl =ne copia o memoria. [p53-i:xtli-cui- caus02-l1-a:matl] 55m-3. ixcuitiliztli =ne exemplo que tomamos de otros. [p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-liz] 71m2-11. ixcuitilli =ne dechado, o exemplo. [p53-i:xtli-cui- caus02-l1] 71m2-11. ixcuitilli =ne exemplo o dechado de donde sacamos. [p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1] 71m1-112. ixcuitilli =ne exemplo o dechado de donde sacamos. [p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1] 55m-9. ixcuitilli =ne exemplo que tomamos de otro. [p53- i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1] 55m-9. ixcuitilli =ne muestra o dechado. [p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1] 71m1-161. neixcuitil =no mi dechado, o exemplo. [poss-p53-i:xtli- cui-caus02-l1] 71m2-12. neixcuitil =to dechado y exemplo nuestro. [poss-p53- i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1] 71m2-25. neixcuitil itech ticcuiz =mo tomaras dello exemplo. [p54-p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1-poss-tech1-cui-z +out.rig +phrase] 71m2-10. neixcuitilhuan =to son exemplo y dechado nuestro. s. los sanctos. [poss-p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1-plur04] 71m2-25. netlacuicauh =no= deudor mio por lo quele preste. [poss-p53-p51-cui-ca:5-uh] 71m2-12. netlacuicauh =no deudor por lo que preste. [poss- p53-p51-cui-ca:5-uh] 71m1-081. netlacuilli =emperador emprestido de reyes. [++emperador p53-p51-cui-l1 +spanish +phrase] 71m1-092. netlacuilli =emperador emprestido de reyes. [++emperador p53-p51-cui-l1 +spanish +phrase] 55m-7. netlacuilquixtia =nino=oninonetlacuilquixtih desempe?arse, o salir de deuda. [p11-p54-p53-p51-cui-l1-qui:za-caus02 +z>x] 71m2-12. netlacuilquixtia =nino desempe?arse. [p11- p54-p53-p51-cui-l1-qui:za-caus02 +z>x] 71m1-072. tech neixcuitiliztli =te remedamiento assi. [poss-tech1 p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-liz +out.rig +phrase] 71m1-182. tech neixcuitiliztli =te remedamiento assi. [poss-tech1 p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-liz +out.rig +phrase] 55m-17. tech nenemilizcuitiliztli =te remedamiento assi. [poss-tech1 p53-nemi-liz-cui-caus02-liz +out.rig +phrase] 55m-17. tlalia =cualli neixcuitilli teixpan nic edificar a otros dandoles buen exemplo. [cualli p53- i:xtli-cui-v04-caus08=0-l1 poss-i:xtli-pan p11-p33-tla:lia: +phrase] 71m1-091. tlalia =cualli neixcuitilli teixpan nic | cualli neixcuitilli teixpan nictlalia || busca edificar . hedificar. [cualli p53-i:xtli-cui-v04-caus08=0-l1 poss-i:xtli-pan p11-p33-tla:lia:] 71m1-131. yolcuitiliztli =ne confession. [p53-yo:lli-cui- caus02-liz] 71m2-11. yolcuitiliztli =ne confession assi. [p53-yo:lli- cui-caus02-liz] 55m-3. yolcuitilo =ne=oneyolcuitiloc todos se confiessan. [p53-yo:lli-cui-caus02-lo:2] 71m2-11. * cui p54 *** cui =motla adeudado. [p54-p51-cui] 55m-001. cui =motla adeudado. [p54-p51-cui] 71m2-10. cui =motla adeudado. [p54-p51-cui] 71m1-012. cuia =ninotla=oninotlacuih tomar algo prestado. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4] 71m2-20. cuia =ninotla adeudarse tomando prestado. [p11-p54- p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4] 55m-001. cuia =ninotla adeudarse tomando prestado. [p11-p54- p51-cui-ben] 71m1-012. cuia =ninotla emprestado tomar. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4a] 71m1-092. cuia =ninotla emprestado tomar. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4] 55m-7. cuia =ninotla prestado tomar. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4a] 71m1-172. cuia =ninotla tomar prestado. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4] 71m1-201. cuicuilia =nino=oninocuicuilih hazerse de rogar, o negar el debito la muger, o^resistir. [p11-p54- dupl-cui-ben] 71m2-5. cuitia =ahnicno negar. [ah1-p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02] 71m1-161. cuitia =ahnicno negar. [ah1-p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02] 55m-14. cuitia =aoc nicno desdezirse delo que dixo no conociendo o negando auerlo dicho. [ah1-oc p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02] 55m-5. cuitia =juramentotica ahnicno negar con juramento. [++juramento-ti1-ca2 ah1-p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02 +spanish +phrase] 71m1-161. cuitia =juramentotica ahnicno negar con juramento. [++juramento-ti1-ca2 ah1-p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02 +spanish +phrase] 55m-14. cuitia =nicno=onicnocuitih conocer, o confessar a otro por se?or, o conocer el delicto que cometio. [p11- p33-p54-cui-caus02] 71m2-5. cuitia =nicno confessar a dios por dios. [p11-p33-p54- cui-caus02] 55m-3. cuitia =nicno confessar en juizio. [p11-p33-p54-cui- caus02] 55m-3. cuitia =zan niman ahmo nicno negar de todo en todo. [zan niman ah1-mo: p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02 +ret.n +phrase] 71m1-161. cuitia =zan niman ahmo nicno negar de todo en todo. [zan niman ah1-mo: p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02 +ret.n +phrase] 55m-14. cuitia notlahtlacol =nicno conocer la culpa. [p11-p33-p54-cui-caus02 poss-p51-ihtlacahui-caus06-l1] 55m- 3. cuitih =quimo conocido assi. [p33-p54-cui-caus02-prt1] 55m-3. cuitih =quimo el que confiessa y conoce que hizo, o dixo algo. [p33-p54-cui-caus02-prt1] 71m2-15. cuitihuetzi =nino=oninocuitihuetz tornar, o boluer sobresi, o espantarse del trueno o de cosa semejante. [p11-p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 71m2-5. cuitihuetzi =nino atronarse el hombre. [p11-p54- cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 55m-1. cuitihuetzi =nino atronarse o espantarse del trueno o de cosa semejante. [p11-p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 71m1-032. cuitihuetzi =nino embazar y marauillarse de espanto. [p11-p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 71m1-091. cuitihuetzi =nino embazarse marauillar#se de espanto. [p11-p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 55m-7. cuitihuetzi =nino retornar en si. [p11-p54-cui- prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 71m1-182. cuitihuetzi =nino retornar en si. [p11-p54-cui- prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 55m-17. cuitihuetzi =nino temblar o estremecerse todo el cuerpo de miedo, o tomando me grima. [p11-p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi aux03] 71m1-201. cuitihuetzini =mo atonito, o amortecido de espanto. [p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi-ni1 aux03] 71m2-10. cuitihuetzini =mo pasmado. [p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1- huetzi-ni1 aux03] 71m1-162. cuitihuetzini =mo pasmado. [p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1- huetzi-ni1 aux03] 55m-15. cuitihuetzqui =mo atronado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 55m-1. cuitihuetzqui =mo atronado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 71m1-032. cuitihuetzqui =mo el que torna en si enmendando la vida. [p54-cui-prt2=0-ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 71m2-10. cuitihuetzqui =mo embazado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 71m1-091. cuitihuetzqui =mo embazado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 55m-7. cuitihuetzqui =mo retornado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 71m1-182. cuitihuetzqui =mo retornado assi. [p54-cui-prt2=0- ti1-huetzi-prt1-c2 aux03] 55m-17. cuiya =ninotla prestado tomar. [p11-p54-p51-cui-ben +mis_analysis.4] 55m-16. neixcuitil itech ticcuiz =mo tomaras dello exemplo. [p54-p53-i:xtli-cui-caus02-l1-poss-tech1-cui-z +out.rig +phrase] 71m2-10. nemilizcui =tetech nino remedar. [poss- tech1 p11-p54-nemi-liz-cui +out.rig +phrase] 71m1-182. netlacuilquixtia =nino=oninonetlacuilquixtih desempe?arse, o salir de deuda. [p11- p54-p53-p51-cui-l1-qui:za-caus02 +z>x] 71m2-12. netlacuilquixtia =nino desempe?arse. [p11- p54-p53-p51-cui-l1-qui:za-caus02 +z>x] 71m1-072. tech ninonemilizcui =te remedar. [poss-tech1 p11-p54-nemi-liz-cui +out.rig +phrase] 55m-17. yolcuitia =nino=oninoyolcuitih confessarse. [p11-p54-yo:lli-cui-caus02] 71m2-7. yolcuitia =nino confessarse. [p11-p54-yo:lli-cui- caus02] 55m-3. yolcuitihqui =mo confessado. [p54-yo:lli-cui-caus02- prt1-c2] 55m-3. yolcuitihqui =mo penitente confessado. [p54-yo:lli- cui-caus02-prt1-c2] 71m2-10. Quoting Tomas Amaya : > > > > > > > Tocnihuan. > Do you have any idea about the meaning of "ynnecuitil / yn necuitil". > It appears in a colonial text (end of s. XVI) I am translating. > The context is: "ypan agosto quichihuasque quitequipanosque yn necuitil". > It sounds me like "commitment", do yo have any other idea? > > Namechtlazohcamati > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl