From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 11:51:38 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 07:51:38 -0400 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? tlaxtlahui Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jun 2 12:24:16 2014 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 07:24:16 -0500 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <20140602075138.2u7ff76dc0s4w8ck@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: That's an interesting question, Michael. I looked through the bugs in book 11 of the Florentine Codex and didn't see any dragonflies. Paul Wolf's comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary doesn't have an entry for the usual Spanish word, libélula, so I won't bother going through the other dictionaries. Perhaps the list members who speak Nahuatl as their mother tongue can help us out, or perhaps Jonathan Amith, who evidently has spent a lot of time learning how to talk about natural things in Nahuatl. -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Michael McCafferty Enviado el: lunes, 2 de junio de 2014 06:52 a. m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? tlaxtlahui Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jun 2 14:37:07 2014 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 09:37:07 -0500 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <20140602100330.ov21mq19ss48ggc4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Other terms to look for in Spanish, besides "libélula" (which is fancy talk in Mexico) are "señorita" and especially "caballito del diablo". My Otomí-speaking wife uses the latter term, which is common in central and north-central Mexico, at least. See: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lib%C3%A9lula _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 14:05:35 2014 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 10:05:35 -0400 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <001001cf7e5d$92212de0$b66389a0$@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: I know there is a word for dragonfly, and I can't think of it. As I recall, it is a compound noun. Joe should be able to help. Fran Karttunen On Jun 2, 2014, at 8:24 AM, David Wright wrote: > That's an interesting question, Michael. I looked through the bugs > in book > 11 of the Florentine Codex and didn't see any dragonflies. Paul Wolf's > comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary doesn't have an entry for > the usual > Spanish word, libélula, so I won't bother going through the other > dictionaries. Perhaps the list members who speak Nahuatl as their > mother > tongue can help us out, or perhaps Jonathan Amith, who evidently > has spent a > lot of time learning how to talk about natural things in Nahuatl. > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl- > bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de Michael McCafferty > Enviado el: lunes, 2 de junio de 2014 06:52 a. m. > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly > > Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? > > tlaxtlahui > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 15:56:06 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 11:56:06 -0400 Subject: dragonfly Message-ID: Fritz Jonathan Amith responded to me directly, and positively. I regret that he didn't respond to the list. The list has been virtually dead for a long time. Perhaps people are being discouraged from responding to the list rather than to the individual? Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 16:55:36 2014 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 12:55:36 -0400 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <20140602075138.2u7ff76dc0s4w8ck@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: In Ameyaltepec, Guerrero, it is a:yoyontsi:n. This is derived from the root a:, water, and the verb yoma, which is the motion made by a woman as she is grinding nixtamal on a metate, sort of a concave swooping motion. The same motion is used to describe that of a man engaging in missionary position sex and is used in a riddle of doble sentido. In Oapan the term aabio:ntsi:n is used (lit. 'little toy airplane'). Although this is descriptive it might come from a folk interpretation of a:yoyontsi:n as the words sound similar. I have also heard the two terms used to refer to Megaloptera adults. These might well be local terms. The term meaning "water copulator" (cf. a:yoyontsi:n) is found in Nuaulu (Roy Ellen, Nuaulu Ethnozoology: A Systematic Inventory, p. 146-7). In Navajo it is a term meaning "which is spread out on water" o "which projects over the water". (L. Wyman and F. Bailey, Navajo Indian Ethnoentomology, pp. 52-53. Here the term also includes ant-lions (i.e., adults). On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? > > tlaxtlahui > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Jun 2 17:50:43 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 12:50:43 -0500 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <20140602115606.khdnjcrpc0koswsg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, In the Huasteca, dragonfly is apipiyallotl. John On Jun 2, 2014, at 10:56, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Fritz > > Jonathan Amith responded to me directly, and positively. > > I regret that he didn't respond to the list. The list has been virtually dead for a long time. Perhaps people are being discouraged from responding to the list rather than to the individual? > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 16:09:53 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 12:09:53 -0400 Subject: dragonfly Message-ID: Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 11:52:19 -0400 [11:52:19 AM EDT] From: Michael McCafferty Add to Address book (mmccaffe at indiana.edu) To: Jonathan Amith Add to Address book (jdanahuatl at gmail.com) Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly Headers: Show All Headers Thanks, Jonathan. Joe found 'dragonfly larvae' in Molina but not 'dragonfly'. Miami-Illinois has /meemeehSikiiwa/ 'he has a big-big head'. (/S/ = "sh") French has la libellule, la demoiselle and le creve-yeux (canadien). Michael Quoting Jonathan Amith : In Ameyaltepec, Guerrero, it is a:yoyontsi:n. This is derived from the root a:, water, and the verb yoma, which is the motion made by a woman as she is grinding nixtamal on a metate, sort of a concave swooping motion. The same motion is used to describe that of a man engaging in missionary position sex and is used in a riddle of doble sentido. In Oapan the term aabio:ntsi:n is used (lit. 'little toy airplane'). Although this is descriptive it might come from a folk interpretation of a:yoyontsi:n as the words sound similar. I have also heard the two terms used to refer to Megaloptera adults. These might well be local terms. The term meaning "water copulator" (cf. a:yoyontsi:n) is found in Nuaulu (Roy Ellen, Nuaulu Ethnozoology: A Systematic Inventory, p. 146-7). In Navajo it is a term meaning "which is spread out on water" o "which projects over the water". (L. Wyman and F. Bailey, Navajo Indian Ethnoentomology, pp. 52-53. Here the term also includes ant-lions (i.e., adults). On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? tlaxtlahui Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Mon Jun 2 17:44:27 2014 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 10:44:27 -0700 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Years ago in Zacatecas, A Verzcruzan native speaker taught me that it was “Apipiyalotl.” On Jun 2, 2014, at 9:55 AM, Jonathan Amith wrote: > In Ameyaltepec, Guerrero, it is a:yoyontsi:n. This is derived from the > root a:, water, and the verb yoma, which is the motion made by a woman as > she is grinding nixtamal on a metate, sort of a concave swooping motion. > The same motion is used to describe that of a man engaging in missionary > position sex and is used in a riddle of doble sentido. > > In Oapan the term aabio:ntsi:n is used (lit. 'little toy airplane'). > Although this is descriptive it might come from a folk interpretation of > a:yoyontsi:n as the words sound similar. > > I have also heard the two terms used to refer to Megaloptera adults. > > These might well be local terms. The term meaning "water copulator" (cf. > a:yoyontsi:n) is found in Nuaulu (Roy Ellen, Nuaulu Ethnozoology: > A Systematic Inventory, p. 146-7). In Navajo it is a term meaning "which is > spread out on water" o "which projects over the water". (L. Wyman and F. > Bailey, Navajo Indian Ethnoentomology, pp. 52-53. Here the term also > includes ant-lions (i.e., adults). > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: > >> Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? >> >> tlaxtlahui >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Mon Jun 2 18:36:35 2014 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 11:36:35 -0700 Subject: dragonfly Message-ID: I was told @ IDIEZ by a person fron Chicontepec it was "apipiyalli". Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Kier Salmon Date:06/02/2014 10:44 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "Nahuat-l ((messages))" Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly Years ago in Zacatecas, A Verzcruzan native speaker taught me that it was “Apipiyalotl.” On Jun 2, 2014, at 9:55 AM, Jonathan Amith wrote: > In Ameyaltepec, Guerrero, it is a:yoyontsi:n.  This is derived from the > root a:, water, and the verb yoma, which is the motion made by a woman as > she is grinding nixtamal on a metate, sort of a concave swooping motion. > The same motion is used to describe that of a man engaging in missionary > position sex and is used in a riddle of doble sentido. > > In Oapan the term aabio:ntsi:n is used (lit. 'little toy airplane'). > Although this is descriptive it might come from a folk interpretation of > a:yoyontsi:n as the words sound similar. > > I have also heard the two terms used to refer to Megaloptera adults. > > These might well be local terms. The term meaning "water copulator" (cf. > a:yoyontsi:n) is found in Nuaulu (Roy Ellen, Nuaulu Ethnozoology: > A Systematic Inventory, p. 146-7). In Navajo it is a term meaning "which is > spread out on water" o "which projects over the water". (L. Wyman and F. > Bailey, Navajo Indian Ethnoentomology, pp. 52-53. Here the term also > includes ant-lions (i.e., adults). > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: > >> Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? >> >> tlaxtlahui >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr Mon Jun 2 19:17:27 2014 From: budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr (Richard BUDELBERGER) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 21:17:27 +0200 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <001001cf7e5d$92212de0$b66389a0$@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: > Message du 02/06/14 14:37 > De : "David Wright" > A : "Nahuat-l" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly > > That's an interesting question, Michael. I looked through the bugs in book > 11 of the Florentine Codex and didn't see any dragonflies. .CINCOCOPI: cincocopi:  1. ~ plante ressemblant au maïs.  Esp., mayz falso que parece mayz y no lo es.  Description. Sah11,282.  Cf. aussi cinteōcocopi.  2. ~ désigne également la libellule. Sah11,64.  ahnōzo cincocopi ahnōzo pāpalōtl , ou une libellule ou un papillon - or a dragon-fly, or a butterfly. Sah9,97.    See http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/c/nahuatlCIHUI.html#CINCOCOPI > Paul Wolf's > comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary doesn't have an entry for the usual > Spanish word, libélula, so I won't bother going through the other > dictionaries. Perhaps the list members who speak Nahuatl as their mother > tongue can help us out, or perhaps Jonathan Amith, who evidently has spent a > lot of time learning how to talk about natural things in Nahuatl. > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de Michael McCafferty > Enviado el: lunes, 2 de junio de 2014 06:52 a. m. > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly > > Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? > > tlaxtlahui > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 20:05:45 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 16:05:45 -0400 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <393631766.31859.1401736647406.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f10> Message-ID: Thanks to all for sharing your terms for 'dragonfly'. As in the case of the names for insects (birds, trees, etc.) in other languages, there seems to be a good deal of dialectal variation in Nahuatl for this yolcatl. I grew up calling dragonflies "snake-feeders". Didn't even hear the word 'dragonfly' until I was a teenager. Michael Quoting Richard BUDELBERGER : >> Message du 02/06/14 14:37 >> De : "David Wright" >> A : "Nahuat-l" >> Copie à : >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly >> >> That's an interesting question, Michael. I looked through the bugs in book >> 11 of the Florentine Codex and didn't see any dragonflies. > > .CINCOCOPI: > cincocopi:  > 1. ~ plante ressemblant au maïs.  > Esp., mayz falso que parece mayz y no lo es.  > Description. Sah11,282.  > Cf. aussi cinte?cocopi.  > 2. ~ désigne également la libellule. Sah11,64.  > ahn?zo cincocopi ahn?zo p?pal?tl , ou une libellule ou un papillon - > or a dragon-fly, or a butterfly. Sah9,97.  >   > See http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/c/nahuatlCIHUI.html#CINCOCOPI > >> Paul Wolf's >> comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary doesn't have an entry for the usual >> Spanish word, libélula, so I won't bother going through the other >> dictionaries. Perhaps the list members who speak Nahuatl as their mother >> tongue can help us out, or perhaps Jonathan Amith, who evidently has spent a >> lot of time learning how to talk about natural things in Nahuatl. >> >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] >> En nombre de Michael McCafferty >> Enviado el: lunes, 2 de junio de 2014 06:52 a. m. >> Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Asunto: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly >> >> Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? >> >> tlaxtlahui >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 19:58:12 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 15:58:12 -0400 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <393631766.31859.1401736647406.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f10> Message-ID: Yes, thank you, Richard. The term cincocopi is indeed in Molina. We overlooked it. Michael Quoting Richard BUDELBERGER : >> Message du 02/06/14 14:37 >> De : "David Wright" >> A : "Nahuat-l" >> Copie à : >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly >> >> That's an interesting question, Michael. I looked through the bugs in book >> 11 of the Florentine Codex and didn't see any dragonflies. > > .CINCOCOPI: > cincocopi:  > 1. ~ plante ressemblant au maïs.  > Esp., mayz falso que parece mayz y no lo es.  > Description. Sah11,282.  > Cf. aussi cinte?cocopi.  > 2. ~ désigne également la libellule. Sah11,64.  > ahn?zo cincocopi ahn?zo p?pal?tl , ou une libellule ou un papillon - > or a dragon-fly, or a butterfly. Sah9,97.  >   > See http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/c/nahuatlCIHUI.html#CINCOCOPI > >> Paul Wolf's >> comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary doesn't have an entry for the usual >> Spanish word, libélula, so I won't bother going through the other >> dictionaries. Perhaps the list members who speak Nahuatl as their mother >> tongue can help us out, or perhaps Jonathan Amith, who evidently has spent a >> lot of time learning how to talk about natural things in Nahuatl. >> >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] >> En nombre de Michael McCafferty >> Enviado el: lunes, 2 de junio de 2014 06:52 a. m. >> Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Asunto: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly >> >> Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? >> >> tlaxtlahui >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Jun 2 22:24:38 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 17:24:38 -0500 Subject: FLAS=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4s_?=for Nahuatl at Yale Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, It seems we have access to some FLAS grants for the Nahuatl program this summer at Yale (http://www.yale.edu/macmillan/lais/summer.html). The grant will cover tuition, room and board, and it can only be used by US citizens who are studying at FLAS-granting universities (undergraduates and graduate students are elegible). If you or someone you know fits this profile and would like to study Nahuatl with us this summer, please reply to me off-list at idiez at me.com. John Sullivan Director, Yale Summer Nahuatl Program _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 12:18:42 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 08:18:42 -0400 Subject: Thank you, Chester Nez. Message-ID: Thank you, Chester Nez. Thank you, Navajo Code Talkers. Thank you for your service to your country. Even though your country treated you like second class citizens, even though your country attempted to eradicate your language you persevered. You repaid enmity with kindness. You repaid segregation with loyalty. Thanks to your efforts our country was successful in the Pacific theater of war. I hope that we have learned that diversity is what makes us strong. I want to thank you personally because you have transformed my life. Thanks to your service, our Congress recognized the importance of the study of foreign languages, and of regionally important languages and established a system of scholarships to allow US citizens to study these languages. Thanks to the program they established, I was able to learn Nahuatl, the Aztec language: as Robert Frost wrote in his poem “The Road Not Taken,” “And that has made all the difference.” Studying Nahuatl has opened whole new worlds to me. I have, over the course of my career, attempted to share those worlds with others. It has enriched my life in so many ways; I simply cannot begin to enumerate them here. So, thank you Chester Nez. Thank you, Navajo Code Talkers. -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 518-608-4522 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cienhuac at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 23:00:13 2014 From: cienhuac at gmail.com (Velez Ramirez) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 18:00:13 -0500 Subject: "Orgullosa de si misma" Message-ID: Estimados listeros, conocerá alguno de ustedes acaso la versión nahuatl del siguiente poema?: Desde donde se posan las águilas, desde donde se yerguen los jaguares, el Sol es invocado. Como un escudo que baja, así se va poniendo el sol. En México está cayendo la noche, la guerra merodea por todas partes, ¡Oh Dador de la vida!, se acerca la guerra. Orgullosa de sí misma se levanta la cuidad de México-Tenochtitlan. Aquí nadie teme la muerte en la guerra. Ésta es nuestra gloria. Éste es tu mandato. ¡Oh Dador de la vida! Tenedlo presente, oh príncipes, no lo olvidéis. ¿Quién podrá sitiar a Tenochtitlan? ¿Quién podrá conmover los cimientos del cielo...? Con nuestras flechas, Con nuestros escudos, está existiendo la ciudad ¡México-Tenochtitlan subsiste! Supuestamente pertenece a los Cantares. Si es el caso, sería alguno tan amable de escribirlo? Tlazohcamaticuilmic _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jun 6 13:00:02 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 09:00:02 -0400 Subject: "Orgullosa de si misma" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: De lo que puedo discernir en el Internet, este poema ha sido traducido por Garibay y aparece en los Cantares. Pero no tengo copia de los Cantares para verificar. Michael Quoting Velez Ramirez : > Estimados listeros, > conocerá alguno de ustedes acaso la versión nahuatl del siguiente poema?: > > Desde donde se posan las águilas, > desde donde se yerguen los jaguares, > el Sol es invocado. > > Como un escudo que baja, > así se va poniendo el sol. > En México está cayendo la noche, > la guerra merodea por todas partes, > ¡Oh Dador de la vida!, > se acerca la guerra. > > Orgullosa de sí misma > se levanta la cuidad de México-Tenochtitlan. > Aquí nadie teme la muerte en la guerra. > Ésta es nuestra gloria. > Éste es tu mandato. > ¡Oh Dador de la vida! > Tenedlo presente, oh príncipes, > no lo olvidéis. > ¿Quién podrá sitiar a Tenochtitlan? > ¿Quién podrá conmover los cimientos del cielo...? > > Con nuestras flechas, > Con nuestros escudos, > está existiendo la ciudad > ¡México-Tenochtitlan subsiste! > > > Supuestamente pertenece a los Cantares. > > Si es el caso, sería alguno tan amable de escribirlo? > > Tlazohcamaticuilmic > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jadrian.perezr at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 18:35:33 2014 From: jadrian.perezr at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Juan_Adri=C3=A1n_P=C3=A9rez_Rivera?=) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 13:35:33 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=9COrgullosa_de_s=C3=AD_misma=E2=80=9C?= Message-ID: Hola, acerca del poema, lo busqué en Cantares Mexicanos. Como lo escribieron, está incompleto, en el libro vienen 3 partes (al inicio, en medio y al final) que quiero poner antes de pasar a la versión nahuatl: 1er párrafo del poema Ya reverdece, ya brota y florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en Acolhuacan; donde está el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli; en tierra seca, Tezozomoctli su riqueza, su palabra también viven *párrafo en medio (después de 'este es tu mandato oh dador de la vida') a ustedes sus hijos Bien, ¿Quién en verdad obtendrá con su trabajo la estera del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Dios? Al final del último párrafo: Que en paz nos guarde el Dador de la vida me aflijo que él lo diga aquí ¿Cómo han de permanecer las cosas? Aparte de todo, en el párrafo final del poema en nahuatl, en ningún lado dice 'con nuestras flechas, con nuestros escudos'; si bien es un difrasismo y queda en el poema, no aparece en la versión original. Y bueno el poema completo en nahuatl es este (lo copio fielmente de Cantares Mexicanos, como pueden notar necesita paleografía, ya estoy en eso): Ye itzmolintimani, xotlancuepontimanian zan ca inchoquiz y nitla'toaya y in Acolmiztli, ya i Techontlalantzin i in Acolihuacan y in Tenochtli manca, in Acamapich in Tlalhuacpa y in Tezozomoctli yehua yncococauh intlatol no zan onnemi a ohuaya Yn quauhpetlapan ocelopetlapa ontlatlauhtilo ya in Tonatiuh (en el texto dice 'Santa María' pero obviamente eso es un invento gachupín... por eso pongo Tonatiuh) Zan chimaltemo yehuan Ypalnemohuani oyohualtemoc Mexico ya tizatl yhuitl moyahuatihuitz tlalpan ahci ye nican ohuaya Ammonahuatil anmonecuiltonol anteteuctin in Quauhtlecohuatl in Cahualtzin y oancontlaneuhque ymahuizo yn Ipalnemoa chimaltemoc nican a in Mexico ya ohuaya ohuaya Zan ye tenyotimani atl on yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y ye ica mahuizohua ayac quimacaci yectlin miquiztli antepilhuan huiya iuh amechnahuati ycelteotl y yehuan 'Ipalnemohuani' (esto lo puse porque en el poema dice literal Dios) *yn amipilhuan a ohuaya Y yectlin ma yhui ac nel quiciehuiz y chimalypetlatl y ya ytlacochicpal y yehuan Ipalnemohuani ohuaya (de nuevo puse Ipalnemohuani, porque decía Dios) Ye xicyocoyacan xiquelnamiquican antepilhuan huia ¿ac quimoyahuaz atl o yan tepetla in Tenochtitlan i? ¿Aquin quitopehuaz yn itlaxillo yn ilhuicatl a ohuaya? yn maoc huel omani ya atl o yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y maoc zan ihuiyan techmotlatilin Ipalnemohuani ohua yya yye ohuaye ninentlamati a maquintoh nica in queni tlamamaniz a ohuaya? También es importante señalar que la traducción al castellano que dan en el libro de Cantares Mexicanos difiere en algunas cosas respecto al poema que escribieron. Si gustan puedo subir la versión en castellano que plantean los estudiosos acerca de esta poesía. Bibliografía: León Portilla, Miguel. “Cantares Mexicanos“ 1ed, editorial UNAM. vol. II,Tomo 1. P240-245 Ma totahtzin anmechmopieli. Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Fri Jun 6 22:26:15 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 00:26:15 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=9COrgullosa_de_s=C3=AD_misma=E2=80=9C?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Muchas gracias por haber encontrado y subido el poema, que yo había buscado en vano. Bueno, el español no es mi lengua materna (ni tampoco el náhuatl), pero me parece que “orgullosa de sí misma” no traduce tenyotimani (/te:n-yo’-ti-mani/), que sería más bien algo como “es famosa”, “es reputada”, “es de gran renombre” - y hasta más precisamente “yace famosa”, “se extiende gloriosa” etc., con el auxiliar (-ti-)mani que marca la ocupación de una superficie. No es la única discordancia entre el texto y ésta traducción. Por eso, si es que se prepara una nueva traducción, será interesante verla. Saludos Michel Launey > Message du 06/06/14 21:11 > De : "Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera" > A : "nahuatl" > Copie à : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] “Orgullosa de sí misma“ > > Hola, acerca del poema, lo busqué en Cantares Mexicanos. Como lo escribieron, está incompleto, en el libro vienen 3 partes (al inicio, en medio y al final) que quiero poner antes de pasar a la versión nahuatl: 1er párrafo del poema Ya reverdece, ya brota y florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en Acolhuacan; donde está el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli; en tierra seca, Tezozomoctli su riqueza, su palabra también viven *párrafo en medio (después de 'este es tu mandato oh dador de la vida') a ustedes sus hijos Bien, ¿Quién en verdad obtendrá con su trabajo la estera del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Dios? Al final del último párrafo: Que en paz nos guarde el Dador de la vida me aflijo que él lo diga aquí ¿Cómo han de permanecer las cosas? Aparte de todo, en el párrafo final del poema en nahuatl, en ningún lado dice 'con nuestras flechas, con nuestros escudos'; si bien es un difrasismo y queda en el poema, no aparece en la versión original. Y bueno el poema completo en nahuatl es este (lo copio fielmente de Cantares Mexicanos, como pueden notar necesita paleografía, ya estoy en eso): Ye itzmolintimani, xotlancuepontimanian zan ca inchoquiz y nitla'toaya y in Acolmiztli, ya i Techontlalantzin i in Acolihuacan y in Tenochtli manca, in Acamapich in Tlalhuacpa y in Tezozomoctli yehua yncococauh intlatol no zan onnemi a ohuaya Yn quauhpetlapan ocelopetlapa ontlatlauhtilo ya in Tonatiuh (en el texto dice 'Santa María' pero obviamente eso es un invento gachupín... por eso pongo Tonatiuh) Zan chimaltemo yehuan Ypalnemohuani oyohualtemoc Mexico ya tizatl yhuitl moyahuatihuitz tlalpan ahci ye nican ohuaya Ammonahuatil anmonecuiltonol anteteuctin in Quauhtlecohuatl in Cahualtzin y oancontlaneuhque ymahuizo yn Ipalnemoa chimaltemoc nican a in Mexico ya ohuaya ohuaya Zan ye tenyotimani atl on yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y ye ica mahuizohua ayac quimacaci yectlin miquiztli antepilhuan huiya iuh amechnahuati ycelteotl y yehuan 'Ipalnemohuani' (esto lo puse porque en el poema dice literal Dios) *yn amipilhuan a ohuaya Y yectlin ma yhui ac nel quiciehuiz y chimalypetlatl y ya ytlacochicpal y yehuan Ipalnemohuani ohuaya (de nuevo puse Ipalnemohuani, porque decía Dios) Ye xicyocoyacan xiquelnamiquican antepilhuan huia ¿ac quimoyahuaz atl o yan tepetla in Tenochtitlan i? ¿Aquin quitopehuaz yn itlaxillo yn ilhuicatl a ohuaya? yn maoc huel omani ya atl o yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y maoc zan ihuiyan techmotlatilin Ipalnemohuani ohua yya yye ohuaye ninentlamati a maquintoh nica in queni tlamamaniz a ohuaya? También es importante señalar que la traducción al castellano que dan en el libro de Cantares Mexicanos difiere en algunas cosas respecto al poema que escribieron. Si gustan puedo subir la versión en castellano que plantean los estudiosos acerca de esta poesía. Bibliografía: León Portilla, Miguel. “Cantares Mexicanos“ 1ed, editorial UNAM. vol. II,Tomo 1. P240-245 Ma totahtzin anmechmopieli. Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Jun 7 23:54:42 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 19:54:42 -0400 Subject: ?Orgullosa de s=?iso-8859-1?Q?=ED_?=misma? Message-ID: Dear Michel and oc cequintin listeros, I am glad that Michel put us back on the proper road to understanding "tenyotimani" and put the "orgullosa de si misma" notion to rest. Since "tentli" is a very frequent element in discussing 'fame' and 'reputation', I thought it might of interest to dig out some examples of "tentli" embedded in the verb "yoa". So I consulted Molina (his three dictionaries) and Sahagun (the Florentine Codex) and compiled the following list. It is repetitious, but when do you hit a nail just once? 55m Molina, 1555 71m2 Molina, 1571 Nahuatl-Spanish 71m1 Molina, 1571 Spanish-Nahuatl (m1 and m2 are bound together, but each one with its own title page) The number that appears hyphenated with m1 and m2 is my computer file number and, unfortunately, the program doesn't return the folio number. FC Florentine Codex Since an item in this list may correspond to a single occurrence or many occurrences in various books of the Florentine, it is not practical to give page numbers here. The main (first) entry is a regularized spelling, including glottal stop written as "h", but without vowel length. The repeated version of a word or phrase is parentheses is Molina's or Sahagun's original spelling. Phrases (e.g., cualli notenyo =ahmo) use the '=' symbol to indicate inversion. Therefore: ahmo cualli notenyo. An element following '==' is Molina's preterit of the verb involved. If anything is not clear, I'll be glad to try to clarify. Joe * te:ntli yoa: *** cualli notenyo =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo). fama mala tener. 55m-9. cualli notenyo nihtoloca =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo nihtoloca). fama mala tener. 71m1-112. hualmotenyotia (oalmoteniotia). he gains fame. FC. hualmotenyotiaya (oalmoteniotiaia). he gained fame. FC. hueya notenyo =oc cencah=oc cencah ohueix notenyo. huel. oc cencah ohueyac notenyo (oc cencah hueya no tenyo ==oc cencah ohueix notenyo. huel. oc cencah ohueyac notenyo). crecer mucho mas mi fama. 71m2-13. intenyo (inte^io). their fame. FC. intenyo (jnteio). their glory. FC. intenyo (intenio). their renown. FC. itenyo (itenio). her fame. FC. itenyo (jteio). his fame. FC. motenyo (mote>io). your fame, your renown. FC. motenyo (moteio). your honor. FC. motenyotia (moteniotia). he is famed. FC. motenyotia (moteniotia). they achieve fame, they achieve glory. FC. notenyo (notenio). my glory. FC. ommotenyotico (onmoteiotico). he came to have fame. FC. ommotenyotih (Onmoteioti). he brought fame on himself. FC. ommotenyotihqueh (onmoteniotique). they became famous. FC. ontenyohua (onteiooa). he is given fame. FC. ontlatenyotia (ontlateniotia). he gives honor. FC. oquimontenyotico (oqujmonteiotico). he came to glorify them. FC. oquitenyoticoh (oqujteiotico). they came to give him fame. FC. pan actimoteca in itenyotzin dios =nohuiyan te=nohuiyan otepan actimotecac in itenyotzin dios (nohuian tepan actimoteca in iteyotzin dios ==nohuian otepan actimotecac initeyotzin dios). estenderse, o bolar por todas partes la fama de nuestro señor dios. 71m2-13. quintenyotia (qujnteiotia). he provides glory to them. FC. quitenyotia (quiteniotia). he prices it. FC. tenyo =no (noteyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. tenyo =no (notenyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. tenyocan (teiocan). place of glory. FC. tenyocan (teniocan). place of glory. FC. tenyoh (tenyo). claro en fama. 55m-3. tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 71m1-101. tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 55m-7. tenyoh (tenyo). esclarecido. 71m1-102. tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 71m1-121. tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 55m-10. tenyoh (teio). having fame. FC. tenyoh (teio). having good repute. FC. tenyoh (tenyo). persona afamada, o encumbrada en honrra. 71m2-17. tenyoh (teyo). señalado en bien. 71m1- 192. tenyoh (teyo). señalado en bien. 55m- 18. tenyohua =ni= (teyoa =ni=). cobrar buena fama y renombre. 71m2-16. tenyohua =ni (tenyoa =ni). afamarse. 71m1-012. tenyohua =ni (tenyohua =ni). esclarecerse o afamarse. 71m1-102. tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih (tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih). afamarse. 71m2-17. tenyotia =nino (tenyotia =nino). afamarse. 71m1-012. tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih (tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih). afamar y dar honra a otro. 71m2-17. tenyotia =nite=oniteteyotih (teyotia =nite=oniteteyotih). afamar a otro. 71m2-16. tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). afamar a otro. 71m1-012. tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 71m1-101. tenyotia =nite (tenyoptia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 55m-8. tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). escarecer o afamar a otro. 55m-8. tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). milagroso hazer algo. 55m-14. tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih (tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih). poner precio alo que se ade vender. 71m2-17. tenyotia =nitla (teyotia =nitla). apreciar poner o declarar el precio dela cosa. 55m-1. tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). apreciar, poner o declarar el precio delo que vale lo que se vende. 71m1-022. tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar tassar o apreciar. 55m-9. tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar, tassar o apreciar. 71m1-111. tenyotiani =mo (mo-teyotiani). el que se afama, o adquire nombre de honra, o de infamia. 71m2-10. tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 71m1-112. tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 55m-9. tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa,famosa o esclarecida. 71m1-132. tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa famosa o esclarecida. 55m-11. tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador tal. 55m-1. tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador o tassador delo que se vende. 71m2-23. tenyotiani =tla (tlatenyotiani). tassador o apreciador deloque se vende. 71m2-23. tenyotica (tenyotica). afamadamente, con fama y honrra. 71m2-17. tenyotica (tenyotica). famosamente assi. 71m1-112. tenyotica (tenyotica). gloriosamente. 71m1-121. tenyotica (tenyotica). loablemente. 71m1-141. tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 71m1-082. tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 55m-6. tenyotiliztli =te (teteyotiliztli). el acto de dar honra o renombre aotro. 71m2-18. tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). engrandecimiento. 71m1-101. tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). glorificacion tal. 71m1-121. tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). esclarecimiento. 71m1-102. tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). estima precio. 71m1-111. tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). loa, alabanza, o honra que se da a alguno. 71m2-23. tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). alabado, honrado y afamado, ocosa tassada y apreciada. 71m2-23. tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). apreciada cosa assi. 55m-1. tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). engrandecido. 71m1-101. tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). esclarecido. 55m-8. tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). onrrado assi. 55m-15. tenyotl =huei (huei tenyotl). fama con mucha honra. 71m1-112. tenyotl (teyotl). fama, o honra. 71m2-16. tenyotl (teniotl). fame. FC. tenyotl (tenyotl). nombre por fama. 71m1-161. tenyotl (tenyotl). onrra. 55m-15. tetenyotia (teteiotia). she brings fame to others. FC. tiquimontenyotiz (tiqujmonteiotiz). you will render glory to them. FC. tiquintenyoticoh (tiquinteiotico). we came to give fame to them. FC. tiquintenyotiz (tiqujnteiotiz). you will give them glory. FC. * tlatenyoh (tlatenio). having a border. FC. [irrelevant to this list] tlatenyotia (tlateiotia). he provides fame. FC. tlatenyotihtica (tlateniotitica). he is bringing fame. FC. tlatenyotihtiuh (tlateniotitiuh). he goes extolling. FC. tontenyohuazqueh (tontenioazque). we will gain fame. FC. totenyo (toteio). our glory. FC. Quoting M Launey : > > Muchas gracias por haber encontrado y subido el poema, que yo había > buscado en vano. > > Bueno, el español no es mi lengua materna (ni tampoco el náhuatl), > pero me parece que ?orgullosa de sí misma? no traduce tenyotimani > (/te:n-yo?-ti-mani/), que sería más bien algo como ?es famosa?, ?es > reputada?, ?es de gran renombre? - y hasta más precisamente ?yace > famosa?, ?se extiende gloriosa? etc., con el auxiliar (-ti-)mani que > marca la ocupación de una superficie. > > No es la única discordancia entre el texto y ésta traducción. Por > eso, si es que se prepara una nueva traducción, será interesante > verla. > > Saludos > > Michel Launey > > > > > > > >> Message du 06/06/14 21:11 >> De : "Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera" >> A : "nahuatl" >> Copie à : >> Objet : [Nahuat-l] ?Orgullosa de sí misma? >> >> Hola, acerca del poema, lo busqué en Cantares Mexicanos. Como lo >> escribieron, está incompleto, en el libro vienen 3 partes (al >> inicio, en medio y al final) que quiero poner antes de pasar a la >> versión nahuatl: 1er párrafo del poema Ya reverdece, ya brota y >> florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en >> Acolhuacan; donde está el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli; en >> tierra seca, Tezozomoctli su riqueza, su palabra también viven >> *párrafo en medio (después de 'este es tu mandato oh dador de la >> vida') a ustedes sus hijos Bien, ¿Quién en verdad obtendrá con su >> trabajo la estera del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Dios? Al >> final del último párrafo: Que en paz nos guarde el Dador de la vida >> me aflijo que él lo diga aquí ¿Cómo han de permanecer las cosas? >> Aparte de todo, en el párrafo final del poema en nahuatl, en ningún >> lado dice 'con nuestras flechas, con nuestros escudos'; si bien es >> un difrasismo y queda en el poema, no aparece en la versión >> original. Y bueno el poema completo en nahuatl es este (lo copio >> fielmente de Cantares Mexicanos, como pueden notar necesita >> paleografía, ya estoy en eso): Ye itzmolintimani, >> xotlancuepontimanian zan ca inchoquiz y nitla'toaya y in Acolmiztli, >> ya i Techontlalantzin i in Acolihuacan y in Tenochtli manca, in >> Acamapich in Tlalhuacpa y in Tezozomoctli yehua yncococauh intlatol >> no zan onnemi a ohuaya Yn quauhpetlapan ocelopetlapa ontlatlauhtilo >> ya in Tonatiuh (en el texto dice 'Santa María' pero obviamente eso >> es un invento gachupín... por eso pongo Tonatiuh) Zan chimaltemo >> yehuan Ypalnemohuani oyohualtemoc Mexico ya tizatl yhuitl >> moyahuatihuitz tlalpan ahci ye nican ohuaya Ammonahuatil >> anmonecuiltonol anteteuctin in Quauhtlecohuatl in Cahualtzin y >> oancontlaneuhque ymahuizo yn Ipalnemoa chimaltemoc nican a in Mexico >> ya ohuaya ohuaya Zan ye tenyotimani atl on yan tepetl a in >> Tenochtitlan y ye ica mahuizohua ayac quimacaci yectlin miquiztli >> antepilhuan huiya iuh amechnahuati ycelteotl y yehuan >> 'Ipalnemohuani' (esto lo puse porque en el poema dice literal Dios) >> *yn amipilhuan a ohuaya Y yectlin ma yhui ac nel quiciehuiz y >> chimalypetlatl y ya ytlacochicpal y yehuan Ipalnemohuani ohuaya (de >> nuevo puse Ipalnemohuani, porque decía Dios) Ye xicyocoyacan >> xiquelnamiquican antepilhuan huia ¿ac quimoyahuaz atl o yan tepetla >> in Tenochtitlan i? ¿Aquin quitopehuaz yn itlaxillo yn ilhuicatl a >> ohuaya? yn maoc huel omani ya atl o yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y >> maoc zan ihuiyan techmotlatilin Ipalnemohuani ohua yya yye ohuaye >> ninentlamati a maquintoh nica in queni tlamamaniz a ohuaya? También >> es importante señalar que la traducción al castellano que dan en el >> libro de Cantares Mexicanos difiere en algunas cosas respecto al >> poema que escribieron. Si gustan puedo subir la versión en >> castellano que plantean los estudiosos acerca de esta poesía. >> Bibliografía: León Portilla, Miguel. ?Cantares Mexicanos? 1ed, >> editorial UNAM. vol. II,Tomo 1. P240-245 Ma totahtzin anmechmopieli. >> Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl >> mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jadrian.perezr at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 02:29:48 2014 From: jadrian.perezr at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Juan_Adri=C3=A1n_P=C3=A9rez_Rivera?=) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 21:29:48 -0500 Subject: ?Orgullosa de s=?utf-8?Q?=C3=AD_?=misma? In-Reply-To: <20140607195442.lli7io7oowok40gw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hola, es claro que “orgullosa de sí misma“ es una traducción no muy correcta. Pero no sólo esa, todo el poema está parcialmente mal traducido. La versión que circula por internet no es la más correcta, basándonos en la versión nahuatl. Por ejemplo, 'Ipalnemohuani' lo traducen como 'dador de la vida', la traducción correcta es 'Aquel por quien se vive'. También, el poema no dice 'desde donde se posan las águilas...', dice: 'En el petate (estera) del águila'. Mi propuesta de traducción es la siguiente: Ya reverdece, ya brota y florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en Acolhuahcan donde está el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli en la tierra seca, Tezozomoctli, su riqueza y su palabra también allá viven En el petate (estera) del águia En el petate del jaguar se invoca/ hay invocación al Sol Desciende como escudo Él Auel por quien se vive descendió de noche en México la tiza, las plumas vienen a esparcirse sobre la tierra llegan aquí Su mandato (o regla), su riqueza ustedes, grandes señores Cuauhtlecoatl, Cahualtzin los han pedido prestados La de Aquel por quien se vive descendió como escudo aquí en México Famosa permanece el agua, el cerro (la ciudad) de Tenochtitlan por eso gana honor Nadie teme la muerte recta ustedes nobles como se los mandó el Dios verdadero a ustedes sus hijos, sus nobles En verdad, que de manera correcta obtengan el petate (estera) del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Él, de Dios Considérenlo, recuérdenlo, ustedes los nobles ¿Quien guerreará al agua, al cerro (a la ciudad) de Tenochtitlan? ¿Quién destruirá los cimientos del cielo? Que aún perdure La ciudad de Tenochtitlan, que en paz nos guarde Aquel por quien se vive me aflijo que Él lo diga aquí ¿Cómo han de permanecer las cosas? No es más que mi humilde propuesta de traducción, puede hacer discrepancias, pero por lo que he estudiado de nahuatl, así quedaría en castellano. Saludos a todos los listeros. Mā totahtzin anmechmopieli nihcaticahuan -Achcauhtli- El 7/6/14, Campbell, R. Joe escribió: > Dear Michel and oc cequintin listeros, > > I am glad that Michel put us back on the proper road to > understanding "tenyotimani" and put the "orgullosa de si misma" notion > to rest. > > Since "tentli" is a very frequent element in discussing 'fame' and > 'reputation', I thought it might of interest to dig out some examples of > "tentli" embedded in the verb "yoa". So I consulted Molina (his three > dictionaries) and Sahagun (the Florentine Codex) and compiled the following > list. It is repetitious, but when do you hit a nail just once? > > 55m Molina, 1555 > 71m2 Molina, 1571 Nahuatl-Spanish > 71m1 Molina, 1571 Spanish-Nahuatl > (m1 and m2 are bound together, but each one with its own title page) > The number that appears hyphenated with m1 and m2 is my computer file > number and, unfortunately, the program doesn't return the folio number. > > FC Florentine Codex > Since an item in this list may correspond to a single occurrence or > many occurrences in various books of the Florentine, it is not > practical to give page numbers here. > > The main (first) entry is a regularized spelling, including glottal stop > written as "h", but without vowel length. The repeated version of a word > or phrase is parentheses is Molina's or Sahagun's original spelling. > Phrases (e.g., cualli notenyo =ahmo) use the '=' symbol to indicate > inversion. > Therefore: ahmo cualli notenyo. > An element following '==' is Molina's preterit of the verb involved. > > If anything is not clear, I'll be glad to try to clarify. > > Joe > > > > * te:ntli yoa: *** > cualli notenyo =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo). fama mala tener. 55m-9. > cualli notenyo nihtoloca =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo nihtoloca). fama > mala tener. 71m1-112. > hualmotenyotia (oalmoteniotia). he gains fame. FC. > hualmotenyotiaya (oalmoteniotiaia). he gained fame. FC. > hueya notenyo =oc cencah=oc cencah ohueix notenyo. huel. oc cencah > ohueyac notenyo (oc cencah hueya no tenyo ==oc cencah ohueix > notenyo. huel. oc cencah ohueyac notenyo). crecer mucho mas mi fama. > 71m2-13. > intenyo (inte^io). their fame. FC. > intenyo (jnteio). their glory. FC. > intenyo (intenio). their renown. FC. > itenyo (itenio). her fame. FC. > itenyo (jteio). his fame. FC. > motenyo (mote>io). your fame, your renown. FC. > motenyo (moteio). your honor. FC. > motenyotia (moteniotia). he is famed. FC. > motenyotia (moteniotia). they achieve fame, they achieve glory. FC. > notenyo (notenio). my glory. FC. > ommotenyotico (onmoteiotico). he came to have fame. FC. > ommotenyotih (Onmoteioti). he brought fame on himself. FC. > ommotenyotihqueh (onmoteniotique). they became famous. FC. > ontenyohua (onteiooa). he is given fame. FC. > ontlatenyotia (ontlateniotia). he gives honor. FC. > oquimontenyotico (oqujmonteiotico). he came to glorify them. FC. > oquitenyoticoh (oqujteiotico). they came to give him fame. FC. > pan actimoteca in itenyotzin dios =nohuiyan te=nohuiyan otepan > actimotecac in itenyotzin dios (nohuian tepan actimoteca in > iteyotzin dios ==nohuian otepan actimotecac initeyotzin dios). > estenderse, o bolar por todas partes la fama de nuestro señor dios. > 71m2-13. > quintenyotia (qujnteiotia). he provides glory to them. FC. > quitenyotia (quiteniotia). he prices it. FC. > tenyo =no (noteyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. > tenyo =no (notenyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. > tenyocan (teiocan). place of glory. > FC. > tenyocan (teniocan). place of glory. > FC. > tenyoh (tenyo). claro en fama. 55m-3. > tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 71m1-101. > tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 55m-7. > tenyoh (tenyo). esclarecido. 71m1-102. > tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 71m1-121. > tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 55m-10. > tenyoh (teio). having fame. FC. > tenyoh (teio). having good repute. FC. > tenyoh (tenyo). persona afamada, o encumbrada en honrra. 71m2-17. > tenyoh (teyo). señalado en bien. 71m1- > 192. > tenyoh (teyo). señalado en bien. 55m- > 18. > tenyohua =ni= (teyoa =ni=). cobrar buena fama y renombre. 71m2-16. > tenyohua =ni (tenyoa =ni). afamarse. > 71m1-012. > tenyohua =ni (tenyohua =ni). esclarecerse o afamarse. 71m1-102. > tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih (tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih). afamarse. > 71m2-17. > tenyotia =nino (tenyotia =nino). afamarse. 71m1-012. > tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih (tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih). afamar y > dar honra a otro. 71m2-17. > tenyotia =nite=oniteteyotih (teyotia =nite=oniteteyotih). afamar a > otro. 71m2-16. > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). afamar a otro. 71m1-012. > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 71m1-101. > tenyotia =nite (tenyoptia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 55m-8. > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). escarecer o afamar a otro. 55m-8. > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). milagroso hazer algo. 55m-14. > tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih (tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih). poner > precio alo que se ade vender. 71m2-17. > tenyotia =nitla (teyotia =nitla). apreciar poner o declarar el precio > dela cosa. 55m-1. > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). apreciar, poner o declarar el precio > delo que vale lo que se vende. 71m1-022. > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar tassar o apreciar. 55m-9. > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar, tassar o apreciar. 71m1-111. > tenyotiani =mo (mo-teyotiani). el que se afama, o adquire nombre de > honra, o de infamia. 71m2-10. > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 71m1-112. > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 55m-9. > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa,famosa o esclarecida. > 71m1-132. > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa famosa o esclarecida. > 55m-11. > tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador tal. 55m-1. > tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador o tassador delo que se > vende. 71m2-23. > tenyotiani =tla (tlatenyotiani). tassador o apreciador deloque se > vende. 71m2-23. > tenyotica (tenyotica). afamadamente, con fama y honrra. 71m2-17. > tenyotica (tenyotica). famosamente assi. 71m1-112. > tenyotica (tenyotica). gloriosamente. 71m1-121. > tenyotica (tenyotica). loablemente. 71m1-141. > tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 71m1-082. > tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 55m-6. > tenyotiliztli =te (teteyotiliztli). el acto de dar honra o renombre > aotro. 71m2-18. > tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). engrandecimiento. 71m1-101. > tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). glorificacion tal. 71m1-121. > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). esclarecimiento. 71m1-102. > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). estima precio. 71m1-111. > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). loa, alabanza, o honra que se da > a alguno. 71m2-23. > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). alabado, honrado y afamado, ocosa > tassada y apreciada. 71m2-23. > tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). apreciada cosa assi. 55m-1. > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). engrandecido. 71m1-101. > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). esclarecido. 55m-8. > tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). onrrado assi. 55m-15. > tenyotl =huei (huei tenyotl). fama con mucha honra. 71m1-112. > tenyotl (teyotl). fama, o honra. 71m2-16. > tenyotl (teniotl). fame. FC. > tenyotl (tenyotl). nombre por fama. 71m1-161. > tenyotl (tenyotl). onrra. 55m-15. > tetenyotia (teteiotia). she brings fame to others. FC. > tiquimontenyotiz (tiqujmonteiotiz). you will render glory to them. FC. > tiquintenyoticoh (tiquinteiotico). we came to give fame to them. FC. > tiquintenyotiz (tiqujnteiotiz). you will give them glory. FC. > * tlatenyoh (tlatenio). having a border. FC. [irrelevant to this list] > tlatenyotia (tlateiotia). he provides fame. FC. > tlatenyotihtica (tlateniotitica). he is bringing fame. FC. > tlatenyotihtiuh (tlateniotitiuh). he goes extolling. FC. > tontenyohuazqueh (tontenioazque). we will gain fame. FC. > totenyo (toteio). our glory. FC. > > > > > > > > > Quoting M Launey : > >> >> Muchas gracias por haber encontrado y subido el poema, que yo había >> buscado en vano. >> >> Bueno, el español no es mi lengua materna (ni tampoco el náhuatl), >> pero me parece que ?orgullosa de sí misma? no traduce tenyotimani >> (/te:n-yo?-ti-mani/), que sería más bien algo como ?es famosa?, ?es >> reputada?, ?es de gran renombre? - y hasta más precisamente ?yace >> famosa?, ?se extiende gloriosa? etc., con el auxiliar (-ti-)mani que >> marca la ocupación de una superficie. >> >> No es la única discordancia entre el texto y ésta traducción. Por >> eso, si es que se prepara una nueva traducción, será interesante >> verla. >> >> Saludos >> >> Michel Launey >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Message du 06/06/14 21:11 >>> De : "Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera" >>> A : "nahuatl" >>> Copie à : >>> Objet : [Nahuat-l] ?Orgullosa de sí misma? >>> >>> Hola, acerca del poema, lo busqué en Cantares Mexicanos. Como lo >>> escribieron, está incompleto, en el libro vienen 3 partes (al >>> inicio, en medio y al final) que quiero poner antes de pasar a la >>> versión nahuatl: 1er párrafo del poema Ya reverdece, ya brota y >>> florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en >>> Acolhuacan; donde está el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli; en >>> tierra seca, Tezozomoctli su riqueza, su palabra también viven >>> *párrafo en medio (después de 'este es tu mandato oh dador de la >>> vida') a ustedes sus hijos Bien, ¿Quién en verdad obtendrá con su >>> trabajo la estera del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Dios? Al >>> final del último párrafo: Que en paz nos guarde el Dador de la vida >>> me aflijo que él lo diga aquí ¿Cómo han de permanecer las cosas? >>> Aparte de todo, en el párrafo final del poema en nahuatl, en ningún >>> lado dice 'con nuestras flechas, con nuestros escudos'; si bien es >>> un difrasismo y queda en el poema, no aparece en la versión >>> original. Y bueno el poema completo en nahuatl es este (lo copio >>> fielmente de Cantares Mexicanos, como pueden notar necesita >>> paleografía, ya estoy en eso): Ye itzmolintimani, >>> xotlancuepontimanian zan ca inchoquiz y nitla'toaya y in Acolmiztli, >>> ya i Techontlalantzin i in Acolihuacan y in Tenochtli manca, in >>> Acamapich in Tlalhuacpa y in Tezozomoctli yehua yncococauh intlatol >>> no zan onnemi a ohuaya Yn quauhpetlapan ocelopetlapa ontlatlauhtilo >>> ya in Tonatiuh (en el texto dice 'Santa María' pero obviamente eso >>> es un invento gachupín... por eso pongo Tonatiuh) Zan chimaltemo >>> yehuan Ypalnemohuani oyohualtemoc Mexico ya tizatl yhuitl >>> moyahuatihuitz tlalpan ahci ye nican ohuaya Ammonahuatil >>> anmonecuiltonol anteteuctin in Quauhtlecohuatl in Cahualtzin y >>> oancontlaneuhque ymahuizo yn Ipalnemoa chimaltemoc nican a in Mexico >>> ya ohuaya ohuaya Zan ye tenyotimani atl on yan tepetl a in >>> Tenochtitlan y ye ica mahuizohua ayac quimacaci yectlin miquiztli >>> antepilhuan huiya iuh amechnahuati ycelteotl y yehuan >>> 'Ipalnemohuani' (esto lo puse porque en el poema dice literal Dios) >>> *yn amipilhuan a ohuaya Y yectlin ma yhui ac nel quiciehuiz y >>> chimalypetlatl y ya ytlacochicpal y yehuan Ipalnemohuani ohuaya (de >>> nuevo puse Ipalnemohuani, porque decía Dios) Ye xicyocoyacan >>> xiquelnamiquican antepilhuan huia ¿ac quimoyahuaz atl o yan tepetla >>> in Tenochtitlan i? ¿Aquin quitopehuaz yn itlaxillo yn ilhuicatl a >>> ohuaya? yn maoc huel omani ya atl o yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y >>> maoc zan ihuiyan techmotlatilin Ipalnemohuani ohua yya yye ohuaye >>> ninentlamati a maquintoh nica in queni tlamamaniz a ohuaya? También >>> es importante señalar que la traducción al castellano que dan en el >>> libro de Cantares Mexicanos difiere en algunas cosas respecto al >>> poema que escribieron. Si gustan puedo subir la versión en >>> castellano que plantean los estudiosos acerca de esta poesía. >>> Bibliografía: León Portilla, Miguel. ?Cantares Mexicanos? 1ed, >>> editorial UNAM. vol. II,Tomo 1. P240-245 Ma totahtzin anmechmopieli. >>> Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl >>> mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 00:28:11 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 19:28:11 -0500 Subject: Report from the 7th Pastoral Workshop on Nahuatl Language and Culture Message-ID: Dear Listeros, I thought many of you would be interested in know about this event, so here I am sharing some of my notes from the field. From Monday the 9th to Thursday the 12th of June 2014, the 7th Pastoral Workshop on Nahuatl Language and Culture took place in Tehuipango, in the Sierra de Zongolica in Central Veracruz. The workshop was organized and presided over by Monsignor Felipe Arizmendi Esquivel, Bishop of San Cristobal de las Casas. I was fortunate enough to be invited and be present during two days of the workshop, and to be able to interview the Bishop and talk to several of the participants. This objective of this series of workshops which has been going on since 2012 is to create an official, translation approved by Rome of the catholic mass into Nahuatl, and as a secondary objective create a unified liturgical language to be used in the many dioceses with Nahuatl speakers. The initiative was started under Pope Benedict, but according to Bishop Arizmendi, Pope Francis has already expressed his interest in the project and his willingness to let translation work take place in the countries in which the linguistic expertise is found instead of in Rome. The translation is a collective work of a group of Nahuatl speaking priests representing different dialect areas working conjointly on a a version that is meant to be acceptable to speakers in all regions. This requires many deep discussions of local usage, and semantics. Originally the aim was to have a couple of different versions, perhaps three, but at the first workshop in 2012 at Tepeyac, a consensus formed among the delegates that it should be possible to make a single authorized version in a new variety of Nahuatl that would be widely acceptable. The translation does include footnotes allowing for substitutions of certain terms in cases where meaning or pronunciation differs too much to reconcile all speakers into a single version. The orthography settled upon at the first meeting uses the letters k, s, h and hu – a kind of compromise orthography using elements of the two main contending orthographies. There are still some advocates of using w instead of hu among the participants. It is likely the first time in several centuries that the Catholic Church has taken any official interest in the Nahuatl language, and the result will be the first official translation of the mass into Nahuatl ever. Many interesting topics of Nahuatl grammar stirred discussion among the participating priests. For descriptions of some of the discussions about the translation you may have a look at my blog where I describe the event in more detail. My new nahuatl blog is at: http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.mx/ Best wishes, Magnus -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jadrian.perezr at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 17:49:07 2014 From: jadrian.perezr at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Juan_Adri=C3=A1n_P=C3=A9rez_Rivera?=) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 12:49:07 -0500 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl Message-ID: About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are being done. You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make serious damage to this beautiful language. In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to classical nahuatl. I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of catholic mass, I would really like that. If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard and explain the reasons why we should do this. We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their own language, because many of them don't know how to write it correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From e.a.polanco at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 21:39:58 2014 From: e.a.polanco at gmail.com (Edward Polanco) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:39:58 -0500 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Juan, I agree with your discomfort regarding the Church's attempt to create a standardized Nahuatl. However, I am uncomfortable privlageing the Nahuatl spoken in Tenochtitlan. For two reasons. 1) there is evidence of variations of Nahuatl spoken in the early colonial period, suggesting variation pre-contact. 2) Like any language, Nahuatl has evolved over the last 495 years, and it would be unfair to conceptualize Nahuatl from the valley as the "original" or more correct variant of Nahuatl. I think consulting scholars would be fantastic, but consulting macehualmeh would be even better. That would make any translation less problematic, although it would be far from perfect. Regards, Edward El jun 12, 2014 4:23 PM, "Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera" < jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> escribió: > About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > > I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > being done. > > You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > serious damage to this beautiful language. > > In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl > that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my > opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, > Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio > Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl > rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you > may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana > Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > classical nahuatl. > > I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. > Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > catholic mass, I would really like that. > > If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > > http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf > > Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > and explain the reasons why we should do this. > > We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their > own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > > Achcauhtli > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Jun 12 22:32:09 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 00:32:09 +0200 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, The importante thing is not to create a standard version of Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also promote inter variant communication. There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn´t make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of these varietal differences. So….. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel León Portilla a few years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should´t. It would be viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. Hmm, notequixpoh Adrián, ¿por qué deberíamos consultar a tres académicos no-nativohablantes de náhuatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por último, ¿por qué crees tan importante traducir la misa al náhuatl? Ya estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy católico), ¿no crees? John On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera wrote: > About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > > I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > being done. > > You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > serious damage to this beautiful language. > > In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl > that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my > opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, > Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio > Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl > rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you > may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana > Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > classical nahuatl. > > I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. > Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > catholic mass, I would really like that. > > If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf > > Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > and explain the reasons why we should do this. > > We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their > own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > > Achcauhtli > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From slwolitz at earthlink.net Fri Jun 13 00:29:08 2014 From: slwolitz at earthlink.net (seth wolitz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 20:29:08 -0400 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <5702528E-DEED-4260-A15E-900315C52998@me.com> Message-ID: Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it fully but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it with a point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly colonialist misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in some concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of the mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy prosetyzing? Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands full here and a clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! Seth On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > Notequixpoyohuan, > The importante thing is not to create a standard version of Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also promote inter variant communication. > There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn´t make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of these varietal differences. So….. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. > I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel León Portilla a few years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should´t. It would be viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. > Hmm, notequixpoh Adrián, ¿por qué deberíamos consultar a tres académicos no-nativohablantes de náhuatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por último, ¿por qué crees tan importante traducir la misa al náhuatl? Ya estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy católico), ¿no crees? > John > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera wrote: > >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things >> >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are >> being done. >> >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make >> serious damage to this beautiful language. >> >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl >> that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my >> opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, >> Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio >> Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl >> rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you >> may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana >> Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to >> classical nahuatl. >> >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to >> consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of >> catholic mass, I would really like that. >> >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf >> >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard >> and explain the reasons why we should do this. >> >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their >> own language, because many of them don't know how to write it >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. >> >> Achcauhtli >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 01:59:09 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 21:59:09 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl mass Message-ID: Before the conversation goes too far afield, we should remember that before Vatican II (essentially 1960) the mass was only said in Latin. This tradition even pre-dates the Council of Trent, 1565, and the conquest itself. The mass in the vernacular in the Catholic world is of very recent origin. What this means is that there was no particular reason to translate it into Nahuatl during the evangelization, since it wasn't even in Spanish. At the same time, some of the key prayers, Sanctus, Gloria, Credo, Pater Noster, etc., were translated into Nahuatl. As several folks, notably my colleague Louise Burkhart, have noted there was no standard form for these prayers in Nahuatl in the 16th century. -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 518-608-4522 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From e.a.polanco at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 02:00:51 2014 From: e.a.polanco at gmail.com (Edward Polanco) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 21:00:51 -0500 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <77F196C4-0873-4873-9C69-76365F3D589B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dear all, The Inquisition censored the translation of Scripture into indigenous languages in the late 16th century (1580s). High probability for mistranslation and thus heterodoxy was used as a justification for this decree. Sahagún and Molina were both consulted on the matter by the Holy office in Mexico. Regards, Edward Sent from a wireless device El jun 12, 2014 8:53 PM, "seth wolitz" escribió: > Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it > fully but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it > with a point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly > colonialist misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in > some concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of > the mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy > prosetyzing? Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands > full here and a clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! > Seth > On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > > > Notequixpoyohuan, > > The importante thing is not to create a standard version of > Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of > all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and > time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good > staring point here, but his system has been improved by > Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > > As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to > understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each > other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would > also promote inter variant communication. > > There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. > This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. > Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl > using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn´t > make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican > Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more > and more aware of these varietal differences. So….. Classical Nahuatl is > not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, > would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we > understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read > multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. > > I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern > lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel León Portilla a few > years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as > ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, > Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should´t. It would be > viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. > > Hmm, notequixpoh Adrián, ¿por qué deberíamos consultar a tres > académicos no-nativohablantes de náhuatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por > último, ¿por qué crees tan importante traducir la misa al náhuatl? Ya > estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy católico), ¿no crees? > > John > > > > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera < > jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > >> > >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > >> being done. > >> > >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > >> serious damage to this beautiful language. > >> > >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl > >> that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my > >> opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, > >> Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio > >> Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl > >> rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you > >> may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana > >> Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > >> classical nahuatl. > >> > >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > >> consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. > >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > >> catholic mass, I would really like that. > >> > >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > >> > http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf > >> > >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > >> and explain the reasons why we should do this. > >> > >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their > >> own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > >> > >> Achcauhtli > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 03:43:56 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 23:43:56 -0400 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While the Inquisition was charged with monitoring the activity, it was Church policy that the Bible only be in Latin, the Vulgate. Scripture was not translated into any local language, Spanish, English, Chinese, etc. Sent from my iPad John Schwaller Professor of History University at Albany > On Jun 12, 2014, at 10:00 PM, Edward Polanco wrote: > > Dear all, > > The Inquisition censored the translation of Scripture into indigenous > languages in the late 16th century (1580s). High probability for > mistranslation and thus heterodoxy was used as a justification for this > decree. Sahagún and Molina were both consulted on the matter by the Holy > office in Mexico. > > Regards, > Edward > Sent from a wireless device > El jun 12, 2014 8:53 PM, "seth wolitz" escribió: > >> Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it >> fully but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it >> with a point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly >> colonialist misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in >> some concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of >> the mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy >> prosetyzing? Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands >> full here and a clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! >> Seth >>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: >>> >>> Notequixpoyohuan, >>> The importante thing is not to create a standard version of >> Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of >> all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and >> time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good >> staring point here, but his system has been improved by >> Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. >>> As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to >> understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each >> other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would >> also promote inter variant communication. >>> There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. >> This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. >> Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl >> using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn´t >> make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican >> Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more >> and more aware of these varietal differences. So….. Classical Nahuatl is >> not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, >> would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we >> understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read >> multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. >>> I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern >> lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel León Portilla a few >> years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as >> ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, >> Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should´t. It would be >> viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. >>> Hmm, notequixpoh Adrián, ¿por qué deberíamos consultar a tres >> académicos no-nativohablantes de náhuatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por >> último, ¿por qué crees tan importante traducir la misa al náhuatl? Ya >> estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy católico), ¿no crees? >>> John >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera < >>> jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things >>>> >>>> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm >>>> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic >>>> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are >>>> being done. >>>> >>>> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to >>>> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL >>>> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make >>>> serious damage to this beautiful language. >>>> >>>> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should >>>> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl >>>> that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my >>>> opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, >>>> Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio >>>> Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl >>>> rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you >>>> may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana >>>> Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to >>>> classical nahuatl. >>>> >>>> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be >>>> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around >>>> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is >>>> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to >>>> consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. >>>> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of >>>> catholic mass, I would really like that. >>>> >>>> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious >>>> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf >>>> >>>> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard >>>> and explain the reasons why we should do this. >>>> >>>> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their >>>> own language, because many of them don't know how to write it >>>> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. >>>> >>>> Achcauhtli >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Fri Jun 13 12:01:46 2014 From: micc2 at cox.net (Mario E. Aguilar) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 05:01:46 -0700 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe that forcing modern day Nahuatlahtoh to write....speak.... think in "the Classical Nahuatl" of Moctekwzuma and Sahagun would be akin to forcing Mexicans, Peruvians, and Colombians to speak, write and think in the Castilian of Cervantes..... or forcing Brits, Aussies, and Yanks, to do the same in Shakespeare's English. -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of seth wolitz Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:29 PM To: John Sullivan Cc: list nahuatl discussion; Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it fully but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it with a point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly colonialist misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in some concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of the mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy prosetyzing? Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands full here and a clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! Seth On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > Notequixpoyohuan, > The importante thing is not to create a standard version of Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also promote inter variant communication. > There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn´t make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of these varietal differences. So .. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. > I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel León Portilla a few years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should´t. It would be viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. > Hmm, notequixpoh Adrián, ¿por qué deberíamos consultar a tres académicos no-nativohablantes de náhuatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por último, ¿por qué crees tan importante traducir la misa al náhuatl? Ya estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy católico), ¿no crees? > John > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera wrote: > >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things >> >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are >> being done. >> >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make >> serious damage to this beautiful language. >> >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the >> nahuatl that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. >> And in my opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an >> agreement, Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre >> Horacio Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the >> nahuatl rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. >> Also, you may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa >> Ana Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to >> classical nahuatl. >> >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to >> consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of >> catholic mass, I would really like that. >> >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn4 >> 2/874.pdf >> >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard >> and explain the reasons why we should do this. >> >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of >> their own language, because many of them don't know how to write it >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. >> >> Achcauhtli >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 15:08:14 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 10:08:14 -0500 Subject: Mass in Nahuatl Message-ID: Dear Listeros, Thanks for all your responses, I agree entirely with your worries, but would like to clarify a couple of points that were perhaps not clear in the original mail. The first is that I am not participating in the work, but was simply invited as an observer. The second is that the majority of the participating priests are macehualme, i.e. native speakers, and that also the process of translation exactly includes the priests taking the translations to the people in their parishes to get input on how to improve it.It was exactly the Bishops point that it should be the community and not academic linguists that shsould decide what translations are or arent acceptable. Also the Bishop does not personally participate in the translatin but simply organizes and leads the effort and mediates with Rome and the other Mexican Bishops. And Third, it is not the´case that Rome is invested in creating a standardized nahuatl, they are only creatng a satndardized mass (which still allows for local variations to suit lingustic needs specific to individual cmmunities of speakers) - they do not intend for this Unified Nahuatl to have any linguistic impact outside of the sphere of the Catholic church (though in my opinion it undoubtedly will have). I will keep you informed about any further developments thhat I become aware of. Best wishes, -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jadrian.perezr at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 18:19:59 2014 From: jadrian.perezr at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Juan_Adri=C3=A1n_P=C3=A9rez_Rivera?=) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:19:59 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 338, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Seth Have you heard the nahuatl of Mexico City (Santa Ana Tlacotenco)? It's almost equal to Classical Nahuatl, maybe 90% the same. What about them? They are wrong because they speak the language of tlahtoqueh, of XVI century?? Nobody forced them to speak like that, it's just that they actually speak well their language. We have to understand that most of the 'mahcehualmeh' of other areas (Veracruz, Morelos, etc) don't know to speak their language correctly. We believe that just because they are native speakers, they know everything and they are never wrong about nahuatl grammar. Even Librado Silva Galeana, who was 'mahcehualli', studied his language at UNAM. He didn't feel he knew everything about nahuatl just because he was native speaker. He understood he needed to study more to master his knowledge in nahuatl. So, if you don't like classical nahuatl, then take the nahuatl of Santa Ana Tlacotenco as reference. I don't 'hate' other dialects, but we need standardization to save nahuatl, in order to have millions and millions of nahuatl speakers :) 2014-06-13 12:00 GMT-05:00 : > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Standardization of Nahuatl (John Schwaller) > 2. Re: Standardization of Nahuatl (Mario E. Aguilar) > 3. Mass in Nahuatl (Magnus Pharao Hansen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 23:43:56 -0400 > From: John Schwaller > To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl > Message-ID: <77E2C3B5-0D14-4D02-AEFD-96BE546BAB49 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > While the Inquisition was charged with monitoring the activity, it was > Church policy that the Bible only be in Latin, the Vulgate. Scripture was > not translated into any local language, Spanish, English, Chinese, etc. > > > Sent from my iPad > John Schwaller > Professor of History > University at Albany > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 10:00 PM, Edward Polanco > wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > The Inquisition censored the translation of Scripture into indigenous > > languages in the late 16th century (1580s). High probability for > > mistranslation and thus heterodoxy was used as a justification for this > > decree. Sahagún and Molina were both consulted on the matter by the Holy > > office in Mexico. > > > > Regards, > > Edward > > Sent from a wireless device > > El jun 12, 2014 8:53 PM, "seth wolitz" > escribió: > > > >> Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it > >> fully but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present > it > >> with a point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly > >> colonialist misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass > in > >> some concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no > copy of > >> the mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy > >> prosetyzing? Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your > hands > >> full here and a clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! > >> Seth > >>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > >>> > >>> Notequixpoyohuan, > >>> The importante thing is not to create a standard version of > >> Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers > of > >> all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space > and > >> time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good > >> staring point here, but his system has been improved by > >> Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > >>> As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to > >> understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each > >> other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures > would > >> also promote inter variant communication. > >>> There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. > >> This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. > >> Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl > >> using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn > doesn´t > >> make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican > >> Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more > >> and more aware of these varietal differences. So?.. Classical Nahuatl is > >> not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, > >> would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we > >> understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read > >> multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. > >>> I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern > >> lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel León Portilla a > few > >> years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as > >> ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, > >> Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should´t. It would be > >> viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by > outsiders. > >>> Hmm, notequixpoh Adrián, ¿por qué deberíamos consultar a tres > >> académicos no-nativohablantes de náhuatl para poder traducir la misa? Y > por > >> último, ¿por qué crees tan importante traducir la misa al náhuatl? Ya > >> estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy católico), ¿no crees? > >>> John > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera < > >>> jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > >>>> > >>>> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > >>>> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > >>>> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > >>>> being done. > >>>> > >>>> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > >>>> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > >>>> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > >>>> serious damage to this beautiful language. > >>>> > >>>> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > >>>> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl > >>>> that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my > >>>> opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, > >>>> Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio > >>>> Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl > >>>> rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you > >>>> may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana > >>>> Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > >>>> classical nahuatl. > >>>> > >>>> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > >>>> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > >>>> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > >>>> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > >>>> consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. > >>>> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > >>>> catholic mass, I would really like that. > >>>> > >>>> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > >>>> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > >> > http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf > >>>> > >>>> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > >>>> and explain the reasons why we should do this. > >>>> > >>>> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their > >>>> own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > >>>> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > >>>> > >>>> Achcauhtli > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Nahuatl mailing list > >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Nahuatl mailing list > >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 05:01:46 -0700 > From: "Mario E. Aguilar" > To: "'seth wolitz'" , "'John Sullivan'" > > Cc: 'list nahuatl discussion' , 'Juan Adrián > Pérez Rivera' > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl > Message-ID: <000701cf86ff$40f16ca0$c2d445e0$@cox.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I believe that forcing modern day Nahuatlahtoh to write....speak.... think > in "the Classical Nahuatl" of Moctekwzuma and Sahagun would be akin to > forcing Mexicans, Peruvians, and Colombians to speak, write and think in > the > Castilian of Cervantes..... or forcing Brits, Aussies, and Yanks, to do the > same in Shakespeare's English. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org > [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of seth wolitz > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:29 PM > To: John Sullivan > Cc: list nahuatl discussion; Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl > > Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it > fully > but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it with a > point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly colonialist > misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in some > concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of the > mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy prosetyzing? > Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands full here and > a > clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! > Seth > On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > > > Notequixpoyohuan, > > The importante thing is not to create a standard version of > Nahuatl. > Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all > variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time > would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring > point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > > As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to > understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each > other. > A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also > promote inter variant communication. > > There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. > There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. > Classical > Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using > alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn´t make > too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). > As > we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of > these varietal differences. So….. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four > tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify > their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that > multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for > humanity: ethnocide is not. > > I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern > lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel León Portilla a few > years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as > ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, > Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should´t. It would be > viewed > as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. > > Hmm, notequixpoh Adrián, ¿por qué deberíamos consultar a tres > académicos no-nativohablantes de náhuatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por > último, ¿por qué crees tan importante traducir la misa al náhuatl? Ya > estuvo > con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy católico), ¿no crees? > > John > > > > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera > wrote: > > > >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > >> > >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > >> being done. > >> > >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > >> serious damage to this beautiful language. > >> > >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the > >> nahuatl that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. > >> And in my opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an > >> agreement, Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre > >> Horacio Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the > >> nahuatl rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. > >> Also, you may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa > >> Ana Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > >> classical nahuatl. > >> > >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > >> consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. > >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > >> catholic mass, I would really like that. > >> > >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn4 > >> 2/874.pdf > >> > >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > >> and explain the reasons why we should do this. > >> > >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of > >> their own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > >> > >> Achcauhtli > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 10:08:14 -0500 > From: Magnus Pharao Hansen > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Mass in Nahuatl > Message-ID: > mfS0S9BB3Q at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Dear Listeros, > > Thanks for all your responses, I agree entirely with your worries, but > would like to clarify a couple of points that were perhaps not clear in the > original mail. The first is that I am not participating in the work, but > was simply invited as an observer. The second is that the majority of the > participating priests are macehualme, i.e. native speakers, and that also > the process of translation exactly includes the priests taking the > translations to the people in their parishes to get input on how to improve > it.It was exactly the Bishops point that it should be the community and not > academic linguists that shsould decide what translations are or arent > acceptable. Also the Bishop does not personally participate in the > translatin but simply organizes and leads the effort and mediates with Rome > and the other Mexican Bishops. And Third, it is not the´case that Rome is > invested in creating a standardized nahuatl, they are only creatng a > satndardized mass (which still allows for local variations to suit > lingustic needs specific to individual cmmunities of speakers) - they do > not intend for this Unified Nahuatl to have any linguistic impact outside > of the sphere of the Catholic church (though in my opinion it undoubtedly > will have). > > I will keep you informed about any further developments thhat I become > aware of. > > Best wishes, > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 338, Issue 3 > *************************************** > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From yekeus at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 22:11:20 2014 From: yekeus at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Javier_Jim=C3=A9nez?=) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 17:11:20 -0500 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <000701cf86ff$40f16ca0$c2d445e0$@cox.net> Message-ID: La metx iehkoltial ze poaliztli in no zihtzin netx mo ihliliaia. -In Texinke, Xiklimonti oan in kaloilanke(San Nicolas de los Ranchos, , San Lucas Atzalan y San Pedro Yacuitlalpan de Puebla) ki piah nin tlahtol oan koak tik in kakih tik matih ke ahmo toh kaliknioan. -In no kompaletzin nealtikankatl (San Buena Ventura Nealtican Puebla) nik moh tlahtxitxioiliaiah oan oh ki mihtaliaia ke (nih kompaletzin) o ki mo tlazohtiliaia, oan oh kih mo tlapahpahtiliaia nin tlahtoltzin, tlen tlahtoli ahmoh ki mo piliahia oh ki mo aniliaia, ken “ahtxio”, “ohi”, oh mo txioahia ok zeh tlahtoli ohkatxi zente. Koak in no zihtzin oh kin mo tlatxitxioliaiah in tlakame tlen okzeh in altepeoh, oh kih matxiliaia keh in no zihtzin oh kih moh nekiltizkiaia ki mo zaloltiz in nin tlahtol, oan o mo ioloh mahtia. In koak oh ni tekit in CONAFE o tihkatka ti tlahtoliknime naoatl Veracruz ome tlakame, naoatl Hidalgo Ome Tlakame, aik oh tih mo tlahtolanaia notxin oh tik nehkia in to tlahtol man mo tenmahti ipan mo olohlozke okzehki tlahtolti. Netx nonotzaia ze no maiknio tle altepeoh Tlaxkalan, kon oh mo txioaiah ipan mo ololoaia toh tlahtol iknioan oah oh mo tlahtol anaia ken tih tlahkoihlozke notxtin. Nik nehmilia keh koak tik kahkahoazke in to tlahtol oan in toknioh ih tlahtol tik ahnazke, ih koak ti mo ohlolozke. Les comparto una historia que mi abuelo me contaba. -Los San Nocolasca, San Luqueños y San Pedreños(San Nicolás de los Ranchos, , San Lucas Atzalan y San Pedro Yacuitlalpan de Puebla) tenían su habla y cuando los escuchas sabes que no son nuestros vecinos(de la comunidad/localidad/pueblo) -Mi compadre San Aventureño (San Buena Ventura Nealtican Puebla), lo imitaba y decía (su compadre) que lo apreciaba mucho, e intercambiaban palabras, que no tenía, las tomaba como “semilla”, “difícil”, y se hacía una lengua más completa. Cuando mi abuelo imitaba las personas de otra localidad, sentían que mi abuelo deseaba aprender su forma de hablar y entraban en confianza. Cuando Trabaje en CONAFE estábamos hablantes del náhuatl, Nahuatl de Veracruz dos personas, náhuatl de Hidalgo dos personas y nunca nos pusimos de acuerdo, queríamos que nuestras lenguas fuera base para anexar otras palabras (sin elegir una). Reflexiono, que no nos aferremos a nuestra lengua, intentemos tomar la forma del habla de nuestro hermano en ese momento tomaremos un solo sentido. I share a story my grandfather told me. -The San Nocolasca, San Luqueños and San Pedreños (San Nicolas de los Ranchos, San Lucas and San Pedro Atzalan Yacuitlalpan of Puebla) had their speech and know when the tracks are not our neighbors (community / town / village) -My compadre San Aventureño (San Buena Ventura Nealtican Puebla), imitated and said (his compadre) who loved him, and changed words, which has not, I took as "seed", "difficult", and became a language complete. When my grandfather imitated people from other region, felt that my grandfather wanted to learn their speech and entered confidence. When I was CONAFE, we were Nahuatl speakers, Veracruz Nahuatl two people, two people Hidalgo Nahuatl and we never make a deal our tongues out basis to append other words (not chosen). I reflect, not cling to our language, try to take the form of our brother speech then take one way. 2014-06-13 7:01 GMT-05:00 Mario E. Aguilar : > I believe that forcing modern day Nahuatlahtoh to write....speak.... think > in "the Classical Nahuatl" of Moctekwzuma and Sahagun would be akin to > forcing Mexicans, Peruvians, and Colombians to speak, write and think in > the > Castilian of Cervantes..... or forcing Brits, Aussies, and Yanks, to do the > same in Shakespeare's English. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org > [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of seth wolitz > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:29 PM > To: John Sullivan > Cc: list nahuatl discussion; Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl > > Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it > fully > but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it with a > point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly colonialist > misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in some > concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of the > mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy prosetyzing? > Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands full here and > a > clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! > Seth > On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > > > Notequixpoyohuan, > > The importante thing is not to create a standard version of > Nahuatl. > Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all > variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time > would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring > point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > > As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to > understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each > other. > A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also > promote inter variant communication. > > There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. > There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. > Classical > Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using > alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn´t make > too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). > As > we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of > these varietal differences. So….. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four > tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify > their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that > multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for > humanity: ethnocide is not. > > I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern > lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel León Portilla a few > years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as > ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, > Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should´t. It would be > viewed > as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. > > Hmm, notequixpoh Adrián, ¿por qué deberíamos consultar a tres > académicos no-nativohablantes de náhuatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por > último, ¿por qué crees tan importante traducir la misa al náhuatl? Ya > estuvo > con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy católico), ¿no crees? > > John > > > > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera > wrote: > > > >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > >> > >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > >> being done. > >> > >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > >> serious damage to this beautiful language. > >> > >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the > >> nahuatl that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. > >> And in my opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an > >> agreement, Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre > >> Horacio Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the > >> nahuatl rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. > >> Also, you may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa > >> Ana Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > >> classical nahuatl. > >> > >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > >> consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. > >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > >> catholic mass, I would really like that. > >> > >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn4 > >> 2/874.pdf > >> > >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > >> and explain the reasons why we should do this. > >> > >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of > >> their own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > >> > >> Achcauhtli > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Jun 14 17:07:39 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 19:07:39 +0200 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Notequixpoh, Vamos por partes. 1. Estoy completamente de acuerdo que tanto en español como en náhuatl existen errores de parte de los nativohablantes. Pero si estás sugiriendo que las variantes de náhuatl son versiones incorrectas del idioma, estás equivocado. Todas las variantes del náhuatl comparten una GRAN cantidad de sonidos, palabras y estructuras, y por eso se consideran variantes del idioma. Pero también cada variantes tiene sus particularidades, las cuales no son errores: sólo es necesario codificar tanto los aspectos comunes y las particularidades por medio de la preparación y publicación de diccionarios y gramáticas monolingües. Las variantes de un idioma no son desvirtuaciones: al contrario, constituyen fuentes de riqueza cultural (y por ende, de perspectivas distintas que puedan contribuir a resolver problemas económicos, sociales y políticos) que sólo pueden enriquecer la vida humana. 2. Dije algo en mi primer correo, pero creo que no me di a entender bien. Ya hemos comprobado a través de dos encuentros interdialectales que muchas de las variantes de náhuatl son mutuamente inteligibles. Hay muchas variantes que no hemos incluido todavía en estas actividades, y si encontramos alguna variante que las demás no puedan entender para nada, yo seré el primero en decirlo. Pero hasta que llegue ese momento, podemos operar con la seguridad de que todos los nativohablantes puede comunicarse entre sí. 3. Hablas como si el sector de los académicos y el sector de los nativohablantes se excluyeran. Quizás en el pasado esto era cierto. Pero te puedo asegurar que hay muchos académicos mexicanos que son nativohablantes de lenguas indígenas. El que sus instituciones de adscripción no les permitan trabajar con su lengua es otro problema que hay que resolver. También hay que resolver el problema más grave de que en general las universidades mexicanas ni siquiera contratan a nativohablantes para impartir materias en su idioma y su cultura. Y otro, que no existen en México, programas académicos en los que el idioma utilizado para la impartición de materias y la escritura de trabajos académicos sea una lengua indígena. Sea como sea, hay que promover ahora que colaboren los académicos indígenas y los no-indígenas en la planeación y la implementación masiva de programas de docencia, investigación y revitalización a nivel universitario. 4. Te invito al próximo encuentro interdialectal que vamos a llevar a cabo en Cholula durante la tercera semana de enero de 2015. Si sabes hablar náhuatl podrás participar directamente la comunicación interdialectal. Si no sabes hablar, puedes por lo menos ser testigo del hecho, y así convencerte de lo que estoy diciendo. Un abrazo, John On Jun 13, 2014, at 2:00, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera wrote: > Es simple. Si no quieren usar el nahuatl clásico, pueden basarse en el > nahuatl de Milpa Alta como referencia. Es muy similar (quizá en más > del 90%) al nahuatl del siglo XVI. Es necesario estandarizar el idioma > porque así garantizamos su supervivencia y podemos traducir no sólo > misas, sino toda clase de textos y documentos legales muy útiles para > los hablantes de nahuatl, como actas de nacimiento, pasaportes, > libros, información del gobierno en internet, etc. > > Y respecto a ellos, a los nahua hablantes: Mucha gente que habla > español, dice expresiones como: 'A dónde fuistes?', 'Qué comistes', > 'la calor', 'cuando váyamos', 'cuando lléguemos', y no por ser > hablantes nativos de español quiere decir que hablen bien, verdad? Eso > estamos haciendo con el nahuatl. Asumimos que un dialecto está bien > dicho 'porque así lo hablan los nativos', es decir, no caemos en > cuenta de que los nahua hablantes hablan mal su propio idioma, así > como mucha gente de comunidades pequeñas habla mal español. Por eso me > gustaría que existiera un estándar. > > Y porqué consultar con académicos? Por eso mismo, porque ellos > estudian el idioma más que los propios hablantes. Ellos buscan > preservar el idioma. Te aseguro que muchos nahua hablantes no saben > contar más allá del cien en nahuatl, y no es discriminación, sino que > en realidad mucha gente no sabe a profundidad su lengua nahuatl. > > Ya sé que es difícil comprender esto, pero creo que si no > estandarizamos el nahuatl, éste se va a desvirtuar mucho, y le podría > pasar lo que a idiomas como el zapoteco, en donde el idioma varía > tanto, que de un pueblo a otro no se entienden, aunque ambos hablan > zapoteco. Y entonces, cuando eso pase, de qué va a servir esa > multiculturalidad si sólo 3 personas te van a entender? No sería mejor > un nahuatl, para podernos comunicar con comunidades de todo México? No > sería genial que los de Veracruz y los de Morelos se entendieran al > 100% con los de SLP o DF? > > Saludos > Achcauhtli > > 2014-06-12 17:32 GMT-05:00, John Sullivan : >> Notequixpoyohuan, >> The importante thing is not to create a standard version of Nahuatl. >> Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all >> variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time >> would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring >> point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. >> As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to >> understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each other. >> A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also >> promote inter variant communication. >> There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. There >> were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. Classical >> Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using >> alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn´t make >> too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). As >> we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of >> these varietal differences. So….. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four >> tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify >> their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that >> multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for >> humanity: ethnocide is not. >> I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern lingua >> franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel León Portilla a few years >> ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as ridiculous >> then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, Nahuas >> themselves would not accept it, and they should´t. It would be viewed as the >> most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. >> Hmm, notequixpoh Adrián, ¿por qué deberíamos consultar a tres académicos >> no-nativohablantes de náhuatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por último, >> ¿por qué crees tan importante traducir la misa al náhuatl? Ya estuvo con el >> trabajo misionero (y eso que soy católico), ¿no crees? >> John >> >> >> On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera >> wrote: >> >>> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things >>> >>> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm >>> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic >>> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are >>> being done. >>> >>> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to >>> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL >>> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make >>> serious damage to this beautiful language. >>> >>> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should >>> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl >>> that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my >>> opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, >>> Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio >>> Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl >>> rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you >>> may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana >>> Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to >>> classical nahuatl. >>> >>> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be >>> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around >>> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is >>> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to >>> consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr. >>> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of >>> catholic mass, I would really like that. >>> >>> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious >>> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: >>> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf >>> >>> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard >>> and explain the reasons why we should do this. >>> >>> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their >>> own language, because many of them don't know how to write it >>> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. >>> >>> Achcauhtli >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Jun 15 04:45:56 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 00:45:56 -0400 Subject: Compound Verbs Message-ID: Nocnihuan, Our recent discussion on "tenyohtimani" suggested to me that there be some benefit in an explicit consideration of compound verbs. My apologies for saying some obvious things -- just consider it my revenge on a friend for gravely explaining a woodworking tip to me one day -- to the effect that two 45 degree angles make a 90 degree angle. The pattern is basically: Verb1 + t(i) + Verb2 Verb1 is always in the preterit; verb2 is selected from the following list of "auxiliaries". In the left column, I have assigned serial numbers to them for easy notation. In this way, I can refer to them as AUX01, AUX02, AUX03, etc. 1 nemi 2 quetza 3 huetzi 4 mani 5 ehua 6 huitz 7 quiza 8 tlalia 9 tlehco 10 teca 11a ca 11b ye (of ca) 12 ihca 13 o 14a yauh1 (ya) 14b yauh2 (iuh) 15 calaqui 16 tlaza 17 temo 18 ahci 19 cahua Joe ******************************************** EXAMPLES aux01*** ahcitinemi , c- (cacitinemj). ; they go taking him; they go capturing him. . b.6 f.20 p.256| amictinemi =nic=onicamictinen (amictinemi =nic=onicamictinen). dessear algo, como el que anda muerto de sed. . 71m2-1| antinemi (antinemj). they go hunting. . b.10 f.10 p.171| apizmictinemi =n=onapizmictinen (apizmictinemi =n=onapizmictinen). andar muerto de hambre. . 71m2-2| atlitinemi , c- (catlitinemj). they go making him drink water. . b.10 f.8 p.142| cencah nipactinemi =oc (oc^cencah nipactinemi). mas valer. . 55m-13| chachalacatinemi (chachalacatinemj). they go along chattering. . b.12 f.7 p.115| chiuhtinemi , mo- (muchiuhtinemj). she goes along becoming; . . b.4 f.9 p.95| cochtinemi , co- (cocochtinemj). he successively goes along sleeping. . b.6 f.20 p.253| cuahtinemi , qui- (qujquatinemj). they go eating it. . b.6 f.8 p.101| cuatlaztinemi , mo- (moquatlaztinemj). he goes about haughty. . b.4 f.1 p.3| elcihciuhtinemi (elciciuhtinemj). he goes about sighing; they go about sighing. . b.4 f.4 p.33| huetztinemi (vetztinemj). it goes falling. . b.11 f.22 p.222| huicatinemi =nite=onitehuicatinen (huicatinemi =nite=onitehuicatinen). andar acompa¤ando a otro. . 71m2-27| iyauhtinemi , tla- (tlaiiauhtinemj). they go along making dance motions. . b.2 f.11 p.170| [i]ztlacahuihtinenca , omo- (omoztlacavitinenca). they had practised deceit. . b.4 f.12 p.131| mecatihtinemi , mo- (momecatitinemj). he lives in concubinage. . b.2 f.5 p.102| notztinemi , qui- (quinotztinemj). she proceeds addressing him. . b.6 f.14 p.176| ololohtinemi , c- (cololotinemj). he goes rolling it up; he goes wrapping it; he goes rolling it into a ball; . . b.4 f.1 p.5| tlachixtinemi =nohuiyampa (nohuiampa tlachixtinemi). deshonesta muger y desuergonzada. x +phrase>. 71m1-072| tonalciyauhtinemi (tonalciiauhtinemj). they go along exhausted by the heat. . b.1 f.2 p.41| tzatzauctinemi , qui- (qujtzatzacutinemj). he goes blocking it. . b.4 f.2 p.12| xixipeuhtinemi , qui- (qujxixipeuhtinemj). it goes about peeling it. . b.11 f.2 p.11| yacantinemi , te- (teiacantinemj). he goes leading someone. . b.2 f.3 p.76| yolahcomantinemi =ni (yolahcomantinemi =ni). desasossegado andar y alborotado. . 71m1-071| yoltinemi =ni=oniyoltinen (yoltinemi =ni=oniyoltinen). tener vida. . 71m2-7| aux02*** ehuatiquetz , hualm[o]- (valmevatiquetz). he rose up. . b.12 f.8 p.115| ixnamictimoquetza , con- (conjxnamjctimoquetza). she places herself facing him. . b.2 f.7 p.121| neztimoquetza , tlatla- (tlatlaneztimoquetza). it stands shining. . b.7 f.1 p.15| tentiquetza , con- (contentiquetza). they put it in. . b.3 f.3 p.45| aux03*** ahcitihuetzicoh (acitivetzico). they came hastening to arrive. . b.12 f.1 p.17| altihtihuetzi , con- (conaltitivetzi). they quickly bathe him. . b.4 f.11 p.109| cacalactihuetzi (cacalactivetzi). they each quickly enter. . b.12 f.7 p.108| chachapantihuetzi , on- (onchachapantivetzi). they each plop down, they each fall. . b.2 f.9 p.146| chiuhtihuetzi , xic- (xicchiuhtivetzi). do it quickly. . b.6 f.17 p.214| cuahtihuetzi , qui- (qujquativetzi). they quickly bite it; he bolts it down; he eats it hurriedly. . b.2 f.7 p.129| cuitihuetzi , xocon- (xoconcuitiuetzi). take it quickly. . b.9 f.2 p.13| elhuitectihuetzi , m[o]- (melhujtectiuetzi). he falls striking his chest. . b.10 f.9 p.162| ihciuhcacuahtihuetzi , tiqu- (tiqujciuhcaquativetzi). we gobble it up hurriedly, we eat it quickly. . b.6 f.18 p.226| itihuetziz , con- (conjtiuetziz). he will quickly drink it. . b.10 f.9 p.162| pehpentihuetzi , con- (conpepentiuetzi). they quickly gather it up. . b.5 f.2 p.184| quiztihuetzi =ni (quiztihuetzi =ni). salir arebatadamente; salir arrebatadamente; salir corriendo. . 55m-18| tlalihtihuetzi , nonno- (nonnotlalitivetzi). I quickly seat myself. . b.6 f.18 p.230| tlaztihuetzi , con- (contlaztiuetzi). he quickly throws it. . b.7 f.2 p.26| yahtihuetzi (iativetzi). he rushes, he goes quickly. . b.6 f.18 p.221| aux04*** acatl =chachayacatimani in (chachayacatimani in^acatl). ralas estar las ca¤as o cosa assi. . 55m-17| ahhuachquiauhtimani (aoachqujauhtimanj). it keeps drizzling. . b.12 f.4 p.66| ahhuiyaxtimani , tla- (tlaaujiaxtimanj). it keeps perfuming. x aux04>. b.4 f.8 p.78| ayauhtimani (ayauhtimani). hazer niebla o nieblina; niebla hazer. . 55m-11| cactimani (cactimanj). it is desolate; it is quiet; there is quiet; it lies abandoned; silence prevails. . b.11 f.11 p.106| chixtimani , qui- (qujchixtimanj). they keep waiting for it; they keep waiting for him. x>. b.2 f.6 p.114| cuecuepontimani (cuecuepontimanj). it extends blossoming. . b.11 f.21 p.214| huetztimani , on- (onvetztimanj). they keep falling. . b.11 f.8 p.78| ihcuanihtimani , con- (conjquanjtimanj). they continue to remove it. . b.4 f.8 p.78| melauhtimani , tla- (tlamelauhtimanj). it remains straight. . b.11 f.21 p.212| neztimani =tla (tlaneztimani). hazer claro o sereno; hazer claro y sereno tiempo; hazer tiempo claro y resplandeciente; o lugar sin escuridad y claro. . 55m-11| ololiuhtimani (ololiuhtimanj). they crowd together. . b.11 f.26 p.275| popocatimani (popocatimanj). it lies smoking. . b.11 f.25 p.262| popozocatimani ==opopozocatimanca (popozocatimani ==opopozocatimanca). estar heruiendola olla. . 71m2-14| quiztimani , hual- (oalqujztimanj). they keep coming forward; they keep coming forth; it keeps emerging. . b.2 f.7 p.123| teciuhtimani ==oteciuhtimanca (teciuhtimani ==oteciuhtimanca). granizar. o^apedrear. s. caer piedra quando llueue. . 71m2-16| tetzcaliuhtimani , tla- (tlatetzcaliuhtimanj). it is lying cleanly swept. . b.1 f.2 p.46| tlaztimani , con- (contlaztimanj). they keep casting it. . b.2 f.4 p.88| xaxamacatimani ==oxaxamacatimanca (xaxamacatimani ==oxaxamacatimanca). batir las olas, o quebrar en las rocas. . 71m2-27| yacattimani (iacattimanj). they are in the lead. . b.2 f.9 p.147| yohuatimaniz (iooatimanjz). it will lie darkened. . b.6 f.7 p.81| zouhtimani (zouhtimani). abierto estar libro o carta; abierta estar la carta o el libro. . 55m-001| aux05*** cauhtehua =nic=oniccauhtehuac (cauhtehua =nic=oniccauhtehuac). dexar a otro, o a otra cosa, e yrse luego a alguna parte. . 71m2-2| cuahtehuaz =nitla= [[tlaquateuaz =ni=]] (cuahtehuaz =nitla=). comere antes que me parta. . 71m2-23| cualantehua =ni=onicualantehuac (cualantehua =ni=onicualantehuac). leuantarse e yrse muy enojado. . 71m2-14| ihtixotlatehua , qu- (quj>tixotlateoa). it suddenly rips open his belly. . b.11 f.1 p.6| ihzatehua =n (ihzatehua =n). leuantarse de dormir. . 71m1-141| quetztehuac , ocon- (oconquetzteoac). he placed it as he departed. . b.6 f.4 p.48| xiccauhtehua =nite (xiccauhtehua =nite). dexar a otro con desden y enojo. . 71m1- 082| aux06*** ayotzincueptihuitze , m[o]- (maiotzincueptiujtze). they come head over heels. . b.2 f.1 p.48| chocatihuitz (chocatiujtz). he comes weeping. . b.1 f.1 p.24| cuicatihuitze (cujcatiujtze). they come singing. . b.2 f.5 p.98| huenchiuhtihuitz , qui- (qujvenchiuhtivitz). they come bringing her as a gift. . b.6 f.17 p.210| ihtotihtihuitze , m[o]- (mitotitiujtze). they come dancing. . b.2 f.1 p.51| itquitihuitz , qu- (qujtqujtivitz). he comes bearing it; they come carrying her. . b.6 f.14 p.175| mamailpihtihuitze (Mamailpitiuitze). they come with their hands tied. . b.2 f.6 p.106| palehuihtihuitze , quim- (qujnpalevitivitze). they come helping them. . b.12 f.7 p.108| quiztihuitz , ni- (njqujztiujtz). I come emerging. . b.6 f.1 p.1| tlaocoxtihuitz (tlaocuxtiujtz). he comes being sad. x>. b.1 f.1 p.24| totonixtihuitz (totonixtivitz). it comes to become warm. . b.1 f.05 p.81| yacantihuitz , quin- (qujniacantivitz). it comes leading them. . b.12 f.6 p.84| aux07*** aantiquizqueh , c- (caantiqujzque). they quickly seized him. . b.12 f.7 p.114| cauhtiquiza , qui- (qujcauhtiquj‡a). they quickly leave him. . b.6 f.18 p.225| cemihtohtiquiza , tocon- (toco^cemitotiqui‡a). we quickly come to agreement, we quickly decide. . b.4 f.12 p.131| chitontiquiza =ni (chitontiquiza =ni). salir arebatadamente; yr de^priessa; salir arrebatadamente; saltar y correr yendo de priesa a algun negocio. . 55m-18| cuitiquiza , qui- (quicuitiqui‡a). they take it quickly; he quickly takes it. . b.9 f.3 p.37| ihtohtiquiza , qu- (quitotiqui‡a). it quickly says it. . b.9 f.5 p.63| itquitiquiza , qu- (quitquitiqui‡a). they quickly carry it. . b.7 f.2 p.30| mictihtiquiza , ontla- (ontlamjctitiquj‡a). they swiftly kill victims. . b.2 f.9 p.145| pitztiquiza , qui- (quipitztiqui‡a). he quickly blows it. . b.9 f.5 p.63| tentiquiza , quihual- (qujoaltentiquj‡a). he quickly places it. . b.2 f.2 p.58| tlaztiquiza , qui- (qujtlaztiquj‡a). he quickly casts it aside. . b.10 f.11 p.185| tzahtzitiquiza (tzatzitiqui‡a). they abruptly shout. . b.9 f.5 p.64| aux08*** cochtimotlalia (cochtimotlalia). he lies down to sleep. . b.4 f.2 p.15| cualantimotlalia =ni (cualantimotlalia =ni). encapotarse de enojo. . 55m-7| poliuhtimotlalia =ni (poliuhtimotlalia =ni). mesurarse; messurarse. . 55m-13| tepeuhtitlalia , mo- (motepeuhtitlalia). it is heaped up. . b.2 f.10 p.161| tolohtimotlalih , hual- (oaltolotimotlali). he sat with his head bowed. . b.12 f.2 p.34| aux09*** tlalohtitlehco , mo- (motlalotitleco). he runs up. . b.3 f.1 p.3| aux10*** mictimotecac =tlalli (tlalli mictimotecac). noche quando se acuestan todos. . 55m- 14| zotlahuatimoteca (‡otlaoatimoteca). it stretches out stupefied; it stretches out enfeebled. . b.11 f.8 p.76| aux11a*** actica , t- (tactica). you are entering. . b.6 f.6 p.67| ahcitica , on- (onacitica). they are arriving. . b.4 f.6 p.57| ahmo huehcauhtica =niman (niman ahmo^huehcauhtica). de alli a^pocos dias. . 71m2- 12| ahpantica , tim[o]- (timapantica). you are adorned. . b.6 f.12 p.142| apizmictica =n (apizmictica =n). estar muerto de hambre. . 71m1-111| axixpalanticatca , o- (oaxixpalanticatca). she was soiled with excretions. . b.6 f.17 p.213| cacalactica (cacalactica). it is sunken in, it is dimpled. . b.9 f.7 p.94| caltzauctica (caltzacutica). he is enclosed. . b.12 f.3 p.50| cenyacantica , qui- (qujceniacantica). it is leading it. . b.11 f.23 p.234| chalanihticatca , mo- (mochalanjticatca). they were quarreling. . b.12 f.2 p.29| chixtica , qui- (quichistica). she is waiting for it. x>. b.9 f.4 p.46| chocatica , non- (nonchocatica). I am weeping. . b.6 f.9 p.108| cuahticateh , tla- (tlaquaticate). they are eating. . b.6 f.18 p.230| ehuatica =n (ehuatica =n). estar sentado. . 55m-9| huehcauhtica (huehcauhtica). despues de largo tiempo. . 71m2-26| ihiyotihtica , m[o]- (mjhiotitica). it is breathing. . b.11 f.21 p.221| ixhuatica (ixoatica). it is sprouting. . b.11 f.16 p.162| nacazitztica , mitzhual- (mjtzoalnacazitztica). they are looking at you out of the corner of the eye. tzw>. b.6 f.19 p.244| neneliuhtica =ahtleh (ahtleh neneliuhtica). pura cosa. . 55m-16| neztica (neztica). it is appearing, it is evident; it is apparent. . b.6 f.1 p.1| pactica (pactica). he is happy, he is content; it is happy. . b.6 f.10 p.122| peuhtica , om- (ompeuhtica). they are beginning. . b.9 f.6 p.73| pilohtica , tla- (tlapilotica). he is hanging something. . b.3 f.2 p.19| pitztiyaz , tla- (tlapitztiaz). he will go playing a flute. . b.2 f.2 p.68| tecatica , con- (contecatica). they are setting it. . b.2 f.10 p.161| tlantica (tla^tica). it is ending. . b.2 f.7 p.126| tzonquiztica (tzonqujztica). it is concluding. . b.4 f.8 p.75| xeliuhtica (xeliuhtica). dividing; it is dividing; it is splitting; splitting; distributing. . b.11 f.18 p.184| xoxomolactica (xoxomolactica). it is sunken in. . b.9 f.7 p.94| TO BE CONTINUED TO BE CONTINUED TO BE CONTINUED _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Jun 15 19:00:36 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 21:00:36 +0200 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <0940BAB2-C9A1-40F0-8589-25EFF64286A2@me.com> Message-ID: Estimados listeros Me da alguna vergüenza introducirme en una discusión bastante apasionada, que descubro fuera de casa y lejos de mis diccionarios. Lo hago porque mi nombre fue mencionado como posible perito en el caso de unificación de la lengua náhuatl, lo que me honra mucho, mientras otro listero rechazaba una intervención de no-nahuatlatos en tal proceso. Ahora bien, no puedo jactarme de conocer la lengua más allá de la variante llamada clásica (cuya gramática he estudiado mucho), y un poco del náhuatl moderno de Milpa Alta / Tlacotenco (que efectivamente es poco alejado del clásico, pero que nunca conseguí hablar con presteza). Lo interesante en el debate es que contiene todos los argumentos que surgen en otros tiempos y otros lugares frente a los mismos problemas, que son dos: la búsqueda y creación de una forma común y normalizada para una lengua que existe en forma de variantes dialectales; y la revitalización de una lengua (o variante de lengua) que ya no es materna de nadie. Existe entonces un marco general para el debate, al que es útil referirse. El primer problema se conoce en lingüística y sociolingüística como koiné, una palabra griega que significa “común”: la primera koiné conocida fue el griego de la antigüedad tardía, cuando el mundo griego estaba dividido entre muchas entidades políticas con sendas variantes dialectales. La koiné se elaboró poco a poco en los intercambios, y tuvo bastante éxito hasta ser transmitida a niños, volviéndose lengua materna (y fuente del futuro griego moderno). En los procesos de valorización de las lenguas minorizadas, la idea de una koiné es atractiva, porque unificar y normalizar la lengua facilita los intercambios y ayuda a su difusión escrita y a su enseñanza, llegando así a un estatuto más equilibrado con la lengua oficial. Pero hay dos riesgos: obligar los hablantes a conformarse con una forma más o menos alejada de su propio uso; y si la koiné es muy cercana (o hasta idéntica) a uno de los dialectos, dar una ventaja a los hablantes de este dialecto, en detrimento de los otros (la misma ventaja la tienen los hablantes de una vehicular). Estos dos temas aparecieron claramente estos últimos días en la presente lista, pero también pude observarlos en Europa (bretón, vasco, occitano, serbo-croata, reto-románico etc.), y en otras partes (criollos franceses de América, etc.). En el caso del náhuatl, la idea de usar del clásico como koiné también es atractiva, por el prestigio histórico, la existencia de una tradición escrita, y una distancia (“linguistic gap”) no enorme con cualquier dialecto moderno, aunque se deba tomar en cuenta la ventaja otorgada a los hablantes de ciertos dialectos como Milpa Alta, que son formas evolucionadas del clásico (o de una variante del clásico, tomando en cuenta la objeción de John Sullivan), contrariamente a otras variantes, (Veracruz, Guerrero, la Huasteca etc.) que vienen de formas que carecen de documentos escritos en la época post-conquista. Entonces, la situación podría ser parecida a otro caso exitoso de koiné: el árabe moderno, lengua escrita y vehicular entre los diversos países árabes, basada en el árabe coránico, con algunas adaptaciones, como el aporte de palabras refiriendo a cosas o nociones modernas. Se habla el dialecto de cada país o región, pero la lengua oficial, usada en los intercambios y los documentos escritos; es la koiné árabe moderna. Sin embargo, el éxito del árabe moderno es basado en dos datos que no existen en el caso del náhuatl: el poder político de los estados, con su diplomacia, sus medios de comunicación y de enseñanza, etc.; y el hecho de que el Corán es tan presente en la vida cotidiana de los árabes que su forma lingüística es bien conocida y respectada, lo que obviamente no existe entre los hablantes del náhuatl con el Códice Florentino u otros libros clásicos. Por eso, la elaboración de una koiné náhuatl me parece poco posible en el estado dialectal de la lengua y las condiciones sociales y políticas de hoy, que por supuesto pueden evolucionar. Una de las evoluciones notables es que el conocimiento recíproco de las variantes va creciendo con los encuentros e intercambios entre hablantes, lo que tiene el mismo efecto comunicativo que si existiera una koiné, y por lo tanto esta koiné tampoco es muy necesaria. Y nunca trataré de convencer a los nahuatlatos para cumplir con el requisito de aprender y de usar de un náhuatl diferente del que hablan. Eso sería pura arrogancia. Además, la idea de una misa en koiné náhuatl me parece contradictoria con la práctica general de la Iglesia, que es hablar de la manera más inteligible para los fieles. En el año 813, en el sínodo de Tours, los obispos recomendaban a los sacerdotes que pronuncien sus prédicas y homilías en “lengua vulgar” (= tal como se hablaba), y no en latín: en aquella época, la distancia entre latín y la “lengua vulgar” románica debía ser más o menos como la que existe hoy entre el náhuatl clásico y una buena parte de los dialectos modernos. Por otra parte, nadie me detendrá de seguir interesado en el náhuatl, que es una magnífica creación cultural e intelectual – como cualquier lengua si quieren, pero de manera señalada – y que pertenece al patrimonio mundial, como otras grandes obras del ingenio humano. Uno de mis mayores placeres es dar a conocer esta lengua. Y mi apego incluye el respecto a los que la hablan, y que siguen transmitiéndola, como guardianes (más bien que como poseedores), en el interés de toda la humanidad. Perdón por haber sido largo. Atentamente Michel Launey _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From chelodona at hotmail.com Sun Jun 15 17:38:20 2014 From: chelodona at hotmail.com (chelo dona) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 14:38:20 -0300 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl=?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=8F?= Message-ID: "A donde fuistes?" "Que comistes?" a- el "fuistes" deriva del "fuisteis", tercera persona, perfectamente dicho en un español arcaico pero aceptable. En sudamérica (en Uruguay, Argentina, parte de Colombia, de Bolivia) se usa aún el "vos" como pronombre, que es una segunda persona "distanciada", y conjuga con el "fuisteis", en lugar del "tú" que conjuga con el "fuiste". b- La calor" está aceptado en el español "oficial", porque la Academia tiende a aceptar lo que se impone masivamente. Las lenguas son mezclas y separaciones, es mejor mirarlas y estudiarlas como están que intentar "construirlas". Si nos pusiéramos a priorizar tanto la lógica, podríamos hablar en esperanto, o intentar organizar los verbos en el inglés, por empezar al menos el "ser-estar", de modo que sus distintas conjugaciones no deriven de tres orígenes completamente diferentes... I am, you are, it is... y las redundancias, con ausencia de información, después... etc... imposible. c- el signo de interrogación se usa en español al principio y al fin de la oración, a diferencia del inglés. Con todo, eso está cambiando; lo académico sigue a lo que hace la masa, la palabra al hecho, la ciencia a la técnica, eso es una verdad que está expresada en Confucio, mi conservador preferido, en Marx, en Lincoln, en Einstein y donde quiera que haya inteligencia. Es mi punto de vista. Saludos!!! Marcelo Donadello _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 20:53:22 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 16:53:22 -0400 Subject: Standardization Message-ID: Colleagues, In the last few months I have been working on a book which focuses on the month of Panquetzaliztli. As part of this I have been looking at how the month was celebrated in places other than Tenochtitlan and at times other than the eve of the conquest. In this research it has become clear to me, and something repeated in our recent discussions, that at the time of the arrival of the Spanish, there were many Nahuatls. There were significant differences between the Valley of Mexico and Tlaxcala, just to name one. In addition as Michael Swanton and Una Canger have discovered, immediately after the conquest, and probably dating from before, there were many varieties of Nahuatl as a second language, spoken by native speakers of other languages who needed to operate in Nahuatl as well, both because of Mexica and Spanish imperialism. So, then as how, there were many Nahuatls. Molina, Carochi, Sahagun, and the rest merely distilled several variants into a stable form which we now call Classical Nahuatl but which was a hybrid from its very inception. -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 518-608-4522 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cienhuac at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 01:53:47 2014 From: cienhuac at gmail.com (Velez Ramirez) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 20:53:47 -0500 Subject: ?Orgullosa de s=?utf-8?Q?=C3=AD_?=misma? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Muchas y sinceras gracias por la aclaraciones acerca del poema; recientemente llegué a vivir el centro del DF y tengo una amplia vista hacia los lados de la ciudad, recordar tal poema en la versión castellana me llevo a un momento surreal al observar la megalopolis. Debería hacerse una actualización de esos versos. Siempre encuentro enriquecedor estudiar y exponer dudas aquí en el grupo, la profundización de los temas fluye entre tantos interesados. Miec tlazohcamati nannochih Velasco Valerio El 7 de junio de 2014, 21:29, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera < jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> escribió: > Hola, es claro que “orgullosa de sí misma“ es una traducción no muy > correcta. Pero no sólo esa, todo el poema está parcialmente mal > traducido. La versión que circula por internet no es la más correcta, > basándonos en la versión nahuatl. > > Por ejemplo, 'Ipalnemohuani' lo traducen como 'dador de la vida', la > traducción correcta es 'Aquel por quien se vive'. También, el poema no > dice 'desde donde se posan las águilas...', dice: 'En el petate > (estera) del águila'. Mi propuesta de traducción es la siguiente: > > Ya reverdece, ya brota y florece su llanto > yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en Acolhuahcan > donde está el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli > en la tierra seca, Tezozomoctli, > su riqueza y su palabra también allá viven > > En el petate (estera) del águia > En el petate del jaguar > se invoca/ hay invocación al Sol > > Desciende como escudo Él > Auel por quien se vive > descendió de noche en México > la tiza, las plumas > vienen a esparcirse sobre la tierra > llegan aquí > > Su mandato (o regla), su riqueza > ustedes, grandes señores > Cuauhtlecoatl, Cahualtzin > los han pedido prestados > La de Aquel por quien se vive > descendió como escudo aquí en México > > Famosa permanece el agua, el cerro (la ciudad) de Tenochtitlan > por eso gana honor > Nadie teme la muerte recta > ustedes nobles > como se los mandó > el Dios verdadero > a ustedes sus hijos, sus nobles > > En verdad, que de manera correcta obtengan > el petate (estera) del escudo, el sitial de los dardos > de Él, de Dios > > Considérenlo, recuérdenlo, > ustedes los nobles > ¿Quien guerreará al agua, al cerro (a la ciudad) de Tenochtitlan? > ¿Quién destruirá los cimientos del cielo? > > Que aún perdure > La ciudad de Tenochtitlan, > que en paz nos guarde > Aquel por quien se vive > me aflijo > que Él lo diga aquí > ¿Cómo han de permanecer las cosas? > > No es más que mi humilde propuesta de traducción, puede hacer > discrepancias, pero por lo que he estudiado de nahuatl, así quedaría > en castellano. Saludos a todos los listeros. > > Mā totahtzin anmechmopieli nihcaticahuan > -Achcauhtli- > > El 7/6/14, Campbell, R. Joe escribió: > > Dear Michel and oc cequintin listeros, > > > > I am glad that Michel put us back on the proper road to > > understanding "tenyotimani" and put the "orgullosa de si misma" notion > > to rest. > > > > Since "tentli" is a very frequent element in discussing 'fame' and > > 'reputation', I thought it might of interest to dig out some examples of > > "tentli" embedded in the verb "yoa". So I consulted Molina (his three > > dictionaries) and Sahagun (the Florentine Codex) and compiled the > following > > list. It is repetitious, but when do you hit a nail just once? > > > > 55m Molina, 1555 > > 71m2 Molina, 1571 Nahuatl-Spanish > > 71m1 Molina, 1571 Spanish-Nahuatl > > (m1 and m2 are bound together, but each one with its own title page) > > The number that appears hyphenated with m1 and m2 is my computer file > > number and, unfortunately, the program doesn't return the folio > number. > > > > FC Florentine Codex > > Since an item in this list may correspond to a single occurrence or > > many occurrences in various books of the Florentine, it is not > > practical to give page numbers here. > > > > The main (first) entry is a regularized spelling, including glottal > stop > > written as "h", but without vowel length. The repeated version of a word > > or phrase is parentheses is Molina's or Sahagun's original spelling. > > Phrases (e.g., cualli notenyo =ahmo) use the '=' symbol to indicate > > inversion. > > Therefore: ahmo cualli notenyo. > > An element following '==' is Molina's preterit of the verb involved. > > > > If anything is not clear, I'll be glad to try to clarify. > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > * te:ntli yoa: *** > > cualli notenyo =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo). fama mala tener. 55m-9. > > cualli notenyo nihtoloca =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo nihtoloca). fama > > mala tener. 71m1-112. > > hualmotenyotia (oalmoteniotia). he gains fame. FC. > > hualmotenyotiaya (oalmoteniotiaia). he gained fame. FC. > > hueya notenyo =oc cencah=oc cencah ohueix notenyo. huel. oc cencah > > ohueyac notenyo (oc cencah hueya no tenyo ==oc cencah ohueix > > notenyo. huel. oc cencah ohueyac notenyo). crecer mucho mas mi fama. > > 71m2-13. > > intenyo (inte^io). their fame. FC. > > intenyo (jnteio). their glory. FC. > > intenyo (intenio). their renown. FC. > > itenyo (itenio). her fame. FC. > > itenyo (jteio). his fame. FC. > > motenyo (mote>io). your fame, your renown. FC. > > motenyo (moteio). your honor. FC. > > motenyotia (moteniotia). he is famed. FC. > > motenyotia (moteniotia). they achieve fame, they achieve glory. FC. > > notenyo (notenio). my glory. FC. > > ommotenyotico (onmoteiotico). he came to have fame. FC. > > ommotenyotih (Onmoteioti). he brought fame on himself. FC. > > ommotenyotihqueh (onmoteniotique). they became famous. FC. > > ontenyohua (onteiooa). he is given fame. FC. > > ontlatenyotia (ontlateniotia). he gives honor. FC. > > oquimontenyotico (oqujmonteiotico). he came to glorify them. FC. > > oquitenyoticoh (oqujteiotico). they came to give him fame. FC. > > pan actimoteca in itenyotzin dios =nohuiyan te=nohuiyan otepan > > actimotecac in itenyotzin dios (nohuian tepan actimoteca in > > iteyotzin dios ==nohuian otepan actimotecac initeyotzin dios). > > estenderse, o bolar por todas partes la fama de nuestro señor dios. > > 71m2-13. > > quintenyotia (qujnteiotia). he provides glory to them. FC. > > quitenyotia (quiteniotia). he prices it. FC. > > tenyo =no (noteyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. > > tenyo =no (notenyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. > > tenyocan (teiocan). place of glory. > > FC. > > tenyocan (teniocan). place of glory. > > FC. > > tenyoh (tenyo). claro en fama. 55m-3. > > tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 71m1-101. > > tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 55m-7. > > tenyoh (tenyo). esclarecido. 71m1-102. > > tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 71m1-121. > > tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 55m-10. > > tenyoh (teio). having fame. FC. > > tenyoh (teio). having good repute. FC. > > tenyoh (tenyo). persona afamada, o encumbrada en honrra. 71m2-17. > > tenyoh (teyo). señalado en bien. 71m1- > > 192. > > tenyoh (teyo). señalado en bien. 55m- > > 18. > > tenyohua =ni= (teyoa =ni=). cobrar buena fama y renombre. 71m2-16. > > tenyohua =ni (tenyoa =ni). afamarse. > > 71m1-012. > > tenyohua =ni (tenyohua =ni). esclarecerse o afamarse. 71m1-102. > > tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih (tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih). afamarse. > > 71m2-17. > > tenyotia =nino (tenyotia =nino). afamarse. 71m1-012. > > tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih (tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih). afamar y > > dar honra a otro. 71m2-17. > > tenyotia =nite=oniteteyotih (teyotia =nite=oniteteyotih). afamar a > > otro. 71m2-16. > > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). afamar a otro. 71m1-012. > > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 71m1-101. > > tenyotia =nite (tenyoptia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 55m-8. > > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). escarecer o afamar a otro. 55m-8. > > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). milagroso hazer algo. 55m-14. > > tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih (tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih). poner > > precio alo que se ade vender. 71m2-17. > > tenyotia =nitla (teyotia =nitla). apreciar poner o declarar el precio > > dela cosa. 55m-1. > > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). apreciar, poner o declarar el precio > > delo que vale lo que se vende. 71m1-022. > > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar tassar o apreciar. 55m-9. > > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar, tassar o apreciar. > 71m1-111. > > tenyotiani =mo (mo-teyotiani). el que se afama, o adquire nombre de > > honra, o de infamia. 71m2-10. > > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 71m1-112. > > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 55m-9. > > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa,famosa o esclarecida. > > 71m1-132. > > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa famosa o esclarecida. > > 55m-11. > > tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador tal. 55m-1. > > tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador o tassador delo que se > > vende. 71m2-23. > > tenyotiani =tla (tlatenyotiani). tassador o apreciador deloque se > > vende. 71m2-23. > > tenyotica (tenyotica). afamadamente, con fama y honrra. 71m2-17. > > tenyotica (tenyotica). famosamente assi. 71m1-112. > > tenyotica (tenyotica). gloriosamente. 71m1-121. > > tenyotica (tenyotica). loablemente. 71m1-141. > > tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 71m1-082. > > tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 55m-6. > > tenyotiliztli =te (teteyotiliztli). el acto de dar honra o renombre > > aotro. 71m2-18. > > tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). engrandecimiento. 71m1-101. > > tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). glorificacion tal. 71m1-121. > > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). esclarecimiento. 71m1-102. > > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). estima precio. 71m1-111. > > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). loa, alabanza, o honra que se da > > a alguno. 71m2-23. > > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). alabado, honrado y afamado, ocosa > > tassada y apreciada. 71m2-23. > > tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). apreciada cosa assi. 55m-1. > > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). engrandecido. 71m1-101. > > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). esclarecido. 55m-8. > > tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). onrrado assi. 55m-15. > > tenyotl =huei (huei tenyotl). fama con mucha honra. 71m1-112. > > tenyotl (teyotl). fama, o honra. 71m2-16. > > tenyotl (teniotl). fame. FC. > > tenyotl (tenyotl). nombre por fama. 71m1-161. > > tenyotl (tenyotl). onrra. 55m-15. > > tetenyotia (teteiotia). she brings fame to others. FC. > > tiquimontenyotiz (tiqujmonteiotiz). you will render glory to them. FC. > > tiquintenyoticoh (tiquinteiotico). we came to give fame to them. FC. > > tiquintenyotiz (tiqujnteiotiz). you will give them glory. FC. > > * tlatenyoh (tlatenio). having a border. FC. [irrelevant to this list] > > tlatenyotia (tlateiotia). he provides fame. FC. > > tlatenyotihtica (tlateniotitica). he is bringing fame. FC. > > tlatenyotihtiuh (tlateniotitiuh). he goes extolling. FC. > > tontenyohuazqueh (tontenioazque). we will gain fame. FC. > > totenyo (toteio). our glory. FC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quoting M Launey : > > > >> > >> Muchas gracias por haber encontrado y subido el poema, que yo había > >> buscado en vano. > >> > >> Bueno, el español no es mi lengua materna (ni tampoco el náhuatl), > >> pero me parece que ?orgullosa de sí misma? no traduce tenyotimani > >> (/te:n-yo?-ti-mani/), que sería más bien algo como ?es famosa?, ?es > >> reputada?, ?es de gran renombre? - y hasta más precisamente ?yace > >> famosa?, ?se extiende gloriosa? etc., con el auxiliar (-ti-)mani que > >> marca la ocupación de una superficie. > >> > >> No es la única discordancia entre el texto y ésta traducción. Por > >> eso, si es que se prepara una nueva traducción, será interesante > >> verla. > >> > >> Saludos > >> > >> Michel Launey > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> Message du 06/06/14 21:11 > >>> De : "Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera" > >>> A : "nahuatl" > >>> Copie à : > >>> Objet : [Nahuat-l] ?Orgullosa de sí misma? > >>> > >>> Hola, acerca del poema, lo busqué en Cantares Mexicanos. Como lo > >>> escribieron, está incompleto, en el libro vienen 3 partes (al > >>> inicio, en medio y al final) que quiero poner antes de pasar a la > >>> versión nahuatl: 1er párrafo del poema Ya reverdece, ya brota y > >>> florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en > >>> Acolhuacan; donde está el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli; en > >>> tierra seca, Tezozomoctli su riqueza, su palabra también viven > >>> *párrafo en medio (después de 'este es tu mandato oh dador de la > >>> vida') a ustedes sus hijos Bien, ¿Quién en verdad obtendrá con su > >>> trabajo la estera del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Dios? Al > >>> final del último párrafo: Que en paz nos guarde el Dador de la vida > >>> me aflijo que él lo diga aquí ¿Cómo han de permanecer las cosas? > >>> Aparte de todo, en el párrafo final del poema en nahuatl, en ningún > >>> lado dice 'con nuestras flechas, con nuestros escudos'; si bien es > >>> un difrasismo y queda en el poema, no aparece en la versión > >>> original. Y bueno el poema completo en nahuatl es este (lo copio > >>> fielmente de Cantares Mexicanos, como pueden notar necesita > >>> paleografía, ya estoy en eso): Ye itzmolintimani, > >>> xotlancuepontimanian zan ca inchoquiz y nitla'toaya y in Acolmiztli, > >>> ya i Techontlalantzin i in Acolihuacan y in Tenochtli manca, in > >>> Acamapich in Tlalhuacpa y in Tezozomoctli yehua yncococauh intlatol > >>> no zan onnemi a ohuaya Yn quauhpetlapan ocelopetlapa ontlatlauhtilo > >>> ya in Tonatiuh (en el texto dice 'Santa María' pero obviamente eso > >>> es un invento gachupín... por eso pongo Tonatiuh) Zan chimaltemo > >>> yehuan Ypalnemohuani oyohualtemoc Mexico ya tizatl yhuitl > >>> moyahuatihuitz tlalpan ahci ye nican ohuaya Ammonahuatil > >>> anmonecuiltonol anteteuctin in Quauhtlecohuatl in Cahualtzin y > >>> oancontlaneuhque ymahuizo yn Ipalnemoa chimaltemoc nican a in Mexico > >>> ya ohuaya ohuaya Zan ye tenyotimani atl on yan tepetl a in > >>> Tenochtitlan y ye ica mahuizohua ayac quimacaci yectlin miquiztli > >>> antepilhuan huiya iuh amechnahuati ycelteotl y yehuan > >>> 'Ipalnemohuani' (esto lo puse porque en el poema dice literal Dios) > >>> *yn amipilhuan a ohuaya Y yectlin ma yhui ac nel quiciehuiz y > >>> chimalypetlatl y ya ytlacochicpal y yehuan Ipalnemohuani ohuaya (de > >>> nuevo puse Ipalnemohuani, porque decía Dios) Ye xicyocoyacan > >>> xiquelnamiquican antepilhuan huia ¿ac quimoyahuaz atl o yan tepetla > >>> in Tenochtitlan i? ¿Aquin quitopehuaz yn itlaxillo yn ilhuicatl a > >>> ohuaya? yn maoc huel omani ya atl o yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y > >>> maoc zan ihuiyan techmotlatilin Ipalnemohuani ohua yya yye ohuaye > >>> ninentlamati a maquintoh nica in queni tlamamaniz a ohuaya? También > >>> es importante señalar que la traducción al castellano que dan en el > >>> libro de Cantares Mexicanos difiere en algunas cosas respecto al > >>> poema que escribieron. Si gustan puedo subir la versión en > >>> castellano que plantean los estudiosos acerca de esta poesía. > >>> Bibliografía: León Portilla, Miguel. ?Cantares Mexicanos? 1ed, > >>> editorial UNAM. vol. II,Tomo 1. P240-245 Ma totahtzin anmechmopieli. > >>> Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl > >>> mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jun 17 03:30:50 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 23:30:50 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Compound Verbs II Message-ID: Nocnihuan, Here is the continuation of the compound verb list as recently threatened. By way of apology for its length, I should point out that I skipped most of the available candidates in the selection process. Joe *aux11b *** ihcicatie , xon- (xonjcicatie). be panting. . b.6 f.5 p.51| ihcuiliuhtiez , t- (ticujliuhtiez). you will be inscribed. . b.6 f.14 p.172| ixayopapachohtiez , qu- (qujxayopapachotiez). he will be stopping his [someone else's] tears. . b.6 f.7 p.84| nenehciuhtie , xon- (xonneneciuhtie). be panting. . b.6 f.5 p.51| olinihtiez , m[o]- (molinitiez). it will move, it will be moving. . b.9 f.6 p.74| pactiez (pactiez). he will be happy. . b.5 f.3 p.194| popouhtiez , tic- (ticpopouhtiez). you will be over-esteeming it. . b.6 f.8 p.97| tlalihtiez , contla- (contlatlalitiez). he will be placing it, he will place it. . b.6 f.2 p.24| yaochiuhtihui , quin- (qujniaochiuhtiuj). they go fighting them. . b.2 f.1 p.50| aux12*** actihcac (actihcac). estar hincado. . 71m1-111| ahcitihcac (aciticac). it extends; it is reaching. . b.3 f.3 p.37| ahhuiyaxtihcac (a>viiaxticac). it stands producing perfume. x aux12 +insert.y>. b.11 f.20 p.202| cacayacatihcac , tla- (tlacacaiacaticac). it is broken up in small pieces. . b.11 f.26 p.276| cactihcac (cactihcac). casa desamparada que no se habita; casa que no se mora; desembarazado; desierta casa o pueblo; desocupado lugar; como sala o camara; desocupado lugar o camara; lugar desocupado como sala o camara; vazia cosa. . 71m2- 2| calactihcac (calacticac). it enters. . b.12 f.3 p.35| cehuallohtihcac (cehuallohtihcac). sombra hazer o tener el arbol o cosa assi; sombra tener o hazer el arbol. ll +ev.verb.12>. 55m-20| cehuallohtihcac (cevalloticac). it stands casting a shadow. ll +ev.verb.12>. b.11 f.11 p.107| chachapacatihcac (chachapacaticac). it stands drooping. k>. b.11 f.11 p.111| chichichilehuatihcac (chichichileoaticac). it stands reddened. . b.6 f.3 p.30| chichipahuatihcac (chichipaoaticac). it stands clean, it stands clear. . b.12 f.3 p.38| chiuhtihcac , mo- (mochiuhticac). ; it stands becoming; it stands growing. . b.9 f.7 p.84| chixtihcac , qui- (qujchixticac). he stands awaiting him. x>. b.2 f.6 p.115| cocoliuhtihcac (cocoliuhticac). having many curves; it goes winding. . b.11 f.26 p.267| coyontihcac (coionticac). ; it is perforated; it stands hollowed; there is a hole. . b.3 f.3 p.37| cualtitihcac , ah- (a>qualtiticac). it is bad, it stands bad. . b.11 f.26 p.267| cualtitihcac (qualtiticac). it is good, it stands good. . b.11 f.26 p.267| cuecuecuetziuhtihcac (cuecuecuetziuhticac). having zigzags, having meanders. . b.11 f.26 p.267| cuecuepocatihcac (cuecuepocaticac). it stands blooming; it stands constantly blossoming; blooming. . b.11 f.20 p.202| cuecuetlacatihcac (cuecuetlacaticac). it stands rumbling. . b.11 f.26 p.274| cuepontihcac (cuepontihcac). blanquear de lexos el edificio. . 55m-2| cuicatihcac (cujcaticac). it stands singing. . b.6 f.19 p.240| cuitlahuitihcac , quimo- (quimocuitlauiticac). he stands taking care of it. . b.9 f.1 p.11| huallahtihcac (oallaticac). it comes, it is coming. ll>. b.11 f.4 p.33| huihuixcatihcac (vivixcaticac). it stands trembling. . b.11 f.26 p.274| huilohuatihcac (viloaticac). there is going upright. . b.6 f.15 p.190| [i]czatihcac , tla- (tlac‡aticac). it stands; it stands resting; it stands standing. . b.10 f.10 p.165| ihcoyocatihcac (icoiocaticac). it is sputtering. . b.11 f.11 p.108| ihtotihtihcac , m[o]- (mihtotiticac). he stands dancing. . b.2 f.1 p.52| ihyaxtihcac (hiiaxticac). it stands spreading aroma. x aux12>. b.11 f.20 p.207| itihcac , qu- (qujticac). he stands drinking it. . b.2 f.13 p.207| ixicatihcac (ixicaticac). it is dripping. . b.11 f.11 p.108| iztaztihcac (iztaztihcac). blanquear de lexos el edificio; blanquear algo de lexos. x +x>z>. 55m- 2| iztaztihcac (iztazticac). she stands white, she is white. x +x>z>. b.1 f.1 p.11| mamaxexeliuhtihcac (mamaxexeliuhticac). it stands with its branches spreading. . b.11 f.21 p.214| mamazouhtihcac =cruztitech (cruztitech^mamazouhtihcac). crucifixo. <++cruz-ti1-tech1 dupl-ma:itl-zo:hua-prt1-ti1-ihca-prt2 aux12 +spanish +phrase>. 55m-4| maxexeliuhtihcac (maxexeliuhticac). it stands spreading its branches. . b.11 f.20 p.202| melahuatihcac (melavaticac). it is straight, it stands straight. . b.12 f.6 p.84| memextihcac (memexticac). it is flowing in various places. x>. b.11 f.26 p.272| nehnexehuatihcac (ne>nexeoaticac). it stands ash-colored. . b.6 f.1 p.10| neztihcac , tlahtla- (tla>tlanezticac). it stands resplendent. . b.11 f.26 p.271| ohtli =ihchictihcac (ihchictihcac ohtli). camino llano; camino llano y limpio; camino o suelo muy llano; barrido y limpio. . 55m-2| ohtli =ohuihtihcac (ohuihtihcac ohtli). camino aspero. . 55m-2| panhuetztihcac (panvetzticac). it stands high, it stands above; it is standing high. . b.11 f.11 p.107| petlauhtihcac (petlauhticac). he stands naked. . b.6 f.4 p.45| pilcatihcac =ni (pilcatihcac =ni). colgado estar de alto. . 55m-3| pipixauhtihcac (pipixauhticac). it is raining. . b.11 f.20 p.202| popozocatihcac ==opopozocatihcaca (popozocatihcac ==opopozocatihcaca). estar heruiendola olla. . 71m2-14| quiquiztihcac (qujqujzticac). it is passing through in various places; it stands protruding. . b.11 f.26 p.272| quixohuatihcac , hual- (oalquixoaticac). there was going and coming. x +del.w>. b.9 f.5 p.60| tecuanyohtihcac (tequanioticac). it is full of wild beasts. . b.11 f.26 p.267| temotihcac (temoticac). he stands descending; it stands sloping downward. . b.11 f.25 p.266| tentihcac (tenticac). it is filled; it stands full. . b.11 f.12 p.119| tepitzauhtihcac , tla- (tlatepitzauhticac). it stands hardening. . b.11 f.25 p.266| tlacamecayotl =tlehcotihcac (tlehcotihcac tlacamecayotl). abolorio delos ascendientes; abolorio; o parentesco de los ascendientes. . 71m1-011| tlachixtihcac , on- (ontlachixticac). he stands watching. x>. b.2 f.1 p.52| tlehcotihcac (tle>coticac). he stands ascending; it is ascending. . b.11 f.25 p.266| tocatihcac , qui- (qujtocaticac). it accompanies it, it follows it; ; they protrude along it; they stand following along it. . b.10 f.8 p.130a| totontihcac , mo- (mototonticac). he stands divested (i.e., of an article of clothing). . b.2 f.2 p.58| tzapintihcac =ni=onitzapintihcaca huel. onitzapintihcaya (tzapintihcac =ni=onitzapintihcaca huel. onitzapintihcaya). estar enhiesto leuantado o en pie. . 71m2- 26| tzauctihcac =te (tetzauctihcac). el postrero de los que estan en pie por orden. . 71m2-19| tzetzeliuhtihcac (tzetzeliuhticac). it is sprinkling. . b.11 f.20 p.202| xaxamacatihcac (xaxamacaticac). it is rapid-flowing. . b.11 f.24 p.249| xoxohuixtihcac (xoxovixticac). it stands verdant. x>. b.11 f.11 p.112| yacatihtihcac =tla (tlayacatihtihcac). el primero de los que estan en orden en pie. . 55m-7| yacattihcac (yacattihcac). el primero de los que estan en orden en pie. . 55m-7| yahualohtihcac =nite=oniteyahualohtihcaca (yahualohtihcac =nite=oniteyahualohtihcaca). estar al derredor de otro en pie. . 71m2-6| yohuatihcac , tlatla- (tlatlaioaticac). it is dark; it stands dark. . b.11 f.25 p.262| zotihcac , qui- (quj‡oticac). it stands piercing it. . b.8 f.1 p.17| *aux13*** *aux13 *** aalacatoc (aalacatoc). it lies slippery. k>. b.12 f.4 p.56| aalacatoz (aalacatoz). it will be slippery. . b.5 f.1 p.154| ahcitoc (acitoc). he is reaching; it is reaching; it lies reaching. . b.2 f.3 p.72| ahhuiaxtoc , tla- (tlaaviaxtoc). it lies smelling a pleasant odor. x aux13>. b.4 f.11 p.115| amictoc , c- (camjctoc). it lies thirsting for it. . b.6 f.5 p.57| atlitoz , c- (catlitoz). he will be drinking it. . b.11 f.17 p.173| axtoque =tleh am (tleh amaxtoque). que hazeys?. . 71m2-25| ayacachohtoqueh (aiacachotoque). they sat rattling the rattle boards; they sit rattling gourd rattles; they sit rattling the gourd rattle. . b.2 f.2 p.57| ayochiuhtoqueh (aiochiuhtoque). they sit rattling the turtle shell rattle. . b.2 f.3 p.75| ayohuitectoqueh (aioujtectoque). they sit striking turtle shells. . b.2 f.3 p.75| cactoc (cactoc). it lies silent. . b.12 f.3 p.38| camachalohtoc (camachalotoc). it lies open-mouthed. . b.11 f.7 p.61| cenchiyahuatoc (cenchiavatoc). it lies completely moist. . b.11 f.24 p.253| chalantoc , tla- (tlachalantoc). there is an uproar. . b.7 f.1 p.2| chichinalotoc , tla- (tlachichinalotoc). ; they sit smoking. . b.4 f.5 p.46| chiuhtoc , ahmo- (amochiuhtoc). it does not lie growing. . b.11 f.11 p.111| chixtoc , qui- (qujchixtoc). it lies waiting for him. x>. b.2 f.8 p.143| citlallotoc (citlallotoc). spread with stars, covered with stars. ll>. b.12 f.1 p.12| cochqui =iitztoc (iitztoc cochqui). dormido assi (assi is dormir los ojos abiertos). . 55m-6| cochtoc =ni (cochtoc =ni). estar durmiendo. . 71m1-111| cochtoz (cochtoz). he will lie sleeping. . b.6 f.16 p.198| cozoltentoc (co‡ultentoc). he is lying placed in a cradle. . b.12 f.4 p.56| cuacuahtoqueh , qui- (qujquaquatoque). they sat eating it. . b.2 f.1 p.55| cuacualacatoc (quaqualacatoc). he lay there rumbling; he stretches out rumbling. . b.3 f.3 p.36| cuahtoc , te- (tequatoc). he lies devouring people. . b.11 f.26 p.269| cuauhtenamehtoc (quauhtenametoc). it lies having a wooden wall, it has a wooden wall. . b.12 f.5 p.69| cuauhtentoc (quauhtentoc). they are lying stretched out on a board. . b.6 f.1 p.2| cuecuepocatoc , tla- (tlacuecuepocatoc). it spreads constantly blossoming, blooming. . b.11 f.20 p.200| cuicatoqueh (cujcatoque). they sat singing; they sit singing. . b.2 f.2 p.57| ehuatoc (eoatoc). it is rising. . b.12 f.4 p.56| elcihciuhtoc (elciciuhtoc). he remains sighing. . b.6 f.7 p.81| huactoc (oactoc). it lies dried up. . b.11 f.12 p.114| huehuetztoc (ueuetztoc). it is strewn about. . b.4 f.3 p.31| huetzititoc , mo- (movetzititoc). it lies fallen. . b.11 f.8 p.73| huetzto , xi- (xivetzto). lie reclining. . b.6 f.5 p.51| huetztoc =ni=onihuetztoca. huel. onihuetztoyah (huetztoc =ni=onihuetztoca. huel. onihuetztoyah). estar echado. . 71m2-27| huetztoz , ti- (tivetztoz). you will lie fallen; you will lie cast down. . b.6 f.6 p.70| huilantoc (vilantoc). it lies dragging, it lies stretched out; it lies strung out; it lies reaching outward; she lies outstretched. . b.2 f.10 p.161| ihcicatoc (icicatoc). he lies panting. . b.11 f.21 p.216| ihciuhtoz , t- (ticiuhtoz). you will be hasty. . b.6 f.10 p.124| ihcuiliuhtoc (ycujliuhtoc). it is written. . b.1 f.4 p.65| [i]hcuixtoqueh , tla- (tlacuistoqz). they were winding something. x>. b.8 f.5 p.85| ihiyoantoc , qu- (qujhioantoc). it lies attracting it with its breath. . b.11 f.8 p.79| [i]hneuctoc , tla- (tlahnecutoc). they are inhaling. . b.4 f.5 p.46| i[hy]axtoc , tla- (tlaiaxtoc). it spreads stinking. x aux13>. b.11 f.21 p.219| ihzatoz , t- (ti‡atoz). you will be arisen, you will arise. . b.6 f.10 p.121| ihzotoqueh , m[o]- (mj‡otoque). they sit bleeding themselves. . b.2 f.8 p.134| itoc , qu- (qujtoc). he is drinking it. . b.10 f.9 p.160| itoqueh , qu- (qujtoque). they lie drinking it. . b.2 f.5 p.95| itzto , xiqu- (xiqujtzto). hold vigil; look to it. . b.6 f.8 p.95| iuccitoc (icucitoc). it is ripening. . b.11 f.12 p.116| [i]xhuatoc , tla- (tlaxoatoc). it lies sprouting. . b.11 f.11 p.106| ixicatoz (ixicatoz). it will go on oozing. . b.11 f.9 p.88| ixmictoc =oc tlatla (oc^tlatlaixmictoc). auer todauia escuridad antes que amanezca del todo (idem). . 71m2-13| [i]ztlactoc , hualla- (vallaztlactoc). it lies drooling. . b.6 f.3 p.37| mahpilohtoqueh , om- (vmmapilotoque). it lies pointing. . b.6 f.19 p.237| matatacatoc , hualla- (oalamatatacatoc). he remains coveting. . b.6 f.3 p.31| micohuatoc (mjcoatoc). people lay as if dead. . b.2 f.4 p.82| mimictoc in nihuetzca =nom (nommimictoc in^nihuetzca). morirse de risa, o reirse mucho. . 71m2-12| nahnatzcatoc (na>natzcatoc). it is creaking. . b.4 f.5 p.48| nectoc , mo- (monectoc). it is being needed. . b.4 f.3 p.21| nectoc =ahtleh mo (ahtleh monectoc). auer toda abundancia delo necessario. . 71m2- 2| notzalotoc (notzalotoc). he is called to. . b.6 f.5 p.52| otoc =non (nonotoc). yazer. . 55m- 11| pactoqueh (pactoque). they sit rejoicing. . b.4 f.11 p.119| papapatlacatoc (papapatlacatoc). it lies fluttering. . b.1 f.2 p.47| papatlantoc (papatlantoc). it lies fluttering. . b.1 f.2 p.47| pipixauhtoc , tla- (tlapipixauhtoc). it lies scattered. . b.11 f.26 p.276| pixtoqueh , quim- (qujnpixtoque). they remain guarding it; they lie guarding them. x>. b.6 f.11 p.132| pohpocatoc (po>pocatoc). ; it is smoking. . b.6 f.1 p.2| popozontoc (popo‡ontoc). it lies fluffed up. . b.11 f.19 p.193| quequentoc , qui- (qujqueque^toc). it lies blanketing it. . b.11 f.27 p.283| quiztoc (qujztoc). it is protruding, it is emerging; it is passing; it lies emerging. . b.11 f.1 p.7| quiztoyan , i- (iqujztoia). its emerging place. . b.11 f.11 p.105| teintoc (teintoc). it lies broken. . b.4 f.5 p.46| temotoc (temotoc). it lies descending, it slopes downward. . b.11 f.25 p.261| teztoc (teztoc). he sits grinding. . b.5 f.3 p.194| tlahuantoqueh (tlavantoque). they remain becoming drunk. . b.6 f.11 p.132| tlantoc (tlantoc). it lies ending; it remains ending. . b.11 f.9 p.84| tlantoz , tic- (tictlantoz). you will end it. . b.4 f.7 p.64| tlaocoxtoc (tlaocuxtoc). he lies saddened. x>. b.6 f.5 p.58| tzahtzililotoc (tzatzililotoc). he is cried out to. . b.6 f.5 p.52| tzahtzitoc , hual- (oaltzatzitoc). he remains crying out; it lies crying out. . b.6 f.2 p.21| xaxamacatoqueh (xaxamacatoqueh). estrago de muertos. . 55m-9| xixtoc , hualmo- (oalmoxixtoc). it lies excreting. . b.11 f.10 p.98| zozouhtoc (‡o‡ouhtoc). it lies opening, it lies spreading. . b.11 f.13 p.126| *aux14a*** ahuixtiyaz , t- (tavixtiaz). you will rejoice, you will go rejoicing. x +tia1 +del.y>. b.6 f.6 p.77| atlihtiyaz , n- (natlitiaz). I will go drinking. . b.5 f.1 p.163| cactiyahqueh , oqui- (oqujcactiaque). they went hearing it, they heard it. . b.1 f.4 p.69| chichintiyaz , tla- (tlachichintiaz). he will go sucking [e.g., smoking tube]. . b.2 f.2 p.68| chocholohtaliztli (chocholohtaliztli). trote; trote del que camina. . 55m-19| cuahtiyaz =nic= (cuahtiyaz =nic=). yo yre comiendo. s. algo. . 71m2-15| huetztiya , hual- (oaluetztia). it fell. . b.9 f.1 p.4| ihcatiya (icatia). it is standing, it is established. . b.4 f.4 p.38| ihtohtiya , quihual- (qujvalitotia). he went saying it, he said it. . b.12 f.7 p.110| itquitiyaz , qu- (qujtqujtiaz). she will go carrying it. . b.6 f.3 p.38| macatiyahqueh , techom- (techonmacatiaque). they went giving it to us. . b.6 f.8 p.91| mahuizohtiyani , qui- (qujmavi‡otianj). he might marvel at it. . b.12 f.3 p.44| mattiyahqueh , qui- (qujmattiaque). they went knowing it, they knew it. . b.1 f.4 p.69| mauhtilitiyahqueh , hualmotla- (oalmotlamauhtilitiaque). they went causing fear. . b.12 f.2 p.30| nanacaztlachixtiyaz , ti- (tinanacaztlachixtiaz). you will go gazing sideways. x +tia1 +del.y>. b.6 f.10 p.122| nelhuayotihtiyahqueh , otla- (otlanelhoaiotitiaque). they went establishing their traditions. . b.9 f.7 p.92| notztiya , quinhual- (quinoalnotztia). he came advising them. . b.9 f.6 p.83| palehuihtiyazqueh , quihual- (qujvalpalevitiazque). they will go helping him. . b.12 f.8 p.117| petlauhtiyaz , ti- (tipetlauhtiaz). you will go naked. . b.1 f.1 p.27| quechmecayotiyaz , hual- (oalquechmecaiotiaz). he will come with a cord on his neck. . b.5 f.3 p.189| tlatitiya , qui- (qujtlatitia). he burns it, he goes burning it (diff). . b.3 f.3 p.33| tlatlachixtiyaz , ti- (titlatlachixtiaz). you will be gazing. x +tia1 +del.y>. b.6 f.10 p.122| yacantia , quinhual- (qujnoaliacantia). he goes along providing them with a guide. . b.12 f.2 p.27| yaochichiuhtiya , hualmo- (oalmoiauchichiuhtia). he went preparing himself for war. . b.8 f.2 p.22| yetiya , ohual- (ooalietia). it went being, he had it with him. . b.9 f.3 p.30| *aux14b*** aantihui , c- (caantivi). they go holding him. . b.2 f.6 p.117| acalhuitectihui , m[o]- (macalhujtectivi). boats go striking each other. . b.12 f.5 p.66| ahcoquetztiuh , m[o]- (macoquetztiuh). he goes raising himself. . b.4 f.11 p.122| ahcotlachixtihui , on- (onacotlachixtivi). they go along looking up. x>. b.12 f.3 p.38| atoyatl =zolontiuh (zolontiuh atoyatl). rio ahocinado o arroyo que corre con furia. . 71m1-191| calactiuh =ni=onicalactia (calactiuh =ni=onicalactia). combidarse sin ser combidado. . 71m2-2| cauhtihui , amech- (amechcauhtivi). ; they go leaving you [pl.]. . b.6 f.6 p.70| caxahuatiuh =ni=onicaxahuatia (caxahuatiuh =ni=onicaxahuatia). tornarse flaco, o desmedrar enla hazienda. . 71m2-2| cenyetihui (cenietivi). they go together, they go being together. . b.12 f.5 p.76| chachalcatiuh (chachalcatiuh). it comes rattling. . b.5 f.2 p.179| chachapantiuh (chachapantiuh). he goes along throwing himself on the ground; he goes flattened. . b.2 f.1 p.48| chipapatlacatiuh (chipapatlacatiuh). it goes constantly flying. . b.11 f.10 p.96| chocatihui , qui- (qujchocativi). they go weeping for it. . b.6 f.15 p.186| ciacahuihtiuh , qui- (qujciacaujtiuh). he goes carrying it under his arm. . b.2 f.5 p.104| cocoxtihui (cocoxtiuj). they go (being) sick. x>. b.2 f.4 p.86| cuahcuahtihui , qui- (qujqua>quativi). they go eating it. . b.6 f.17 p.204| cuaiztaztihui (quaiztaztivi). they become white-haired. x +x>z>. b.6 f.9 p.106| cualantiuh =ni (ni-cualantiuh). morir de coraje; morir de coraje {??printing error: re for de}. . 55m-14| cualantiuh (qualantiuh). he goes being angry. . b.6 f.18 p.225| cuecuetlacatiuh (cuecuetlacatiuh). it goes sputtering; it goes rustling. . b.2 f.5 p.101| cueptihui , hualmo- (oalmocueptiuj). they go turning back. . b.2 f.1 p.50| cuicatihui (cujcatiuj). they go singing. . b.2 f.4 p.93| elcihciuhtihui , qu- (quelciciuhtivi). they go sighing for it. . b.6 f.15 p.186| etixtiuh (yetixtiuh). yr muy cargada la carreta, o la barca. x +insert.y>. 71m2-6| huicatiuh , con- (convicatiuh). he goes carrying it. . b.6 f.2 p.19| huitectiuh , qui- (qujujtectiuh). he goes beating it. . b.2 f.5 p.104| icxiantiuh =nino ([i]cxiantiuh =nino). andar a priessa. x +a>i>. 71m1-021| ihcahuacatihui (icaoacatiuj). they go chanting. . b.2 f.4 p.87| ihcatihui (icativi). they go marching. . b.12 f.5 p.68| ihciuhtiuh =n (n-ihciuhtiuh). andar a priessa. . 71m1-021| ihcuanihtiuh , m[o]- (mjquanjtiuh). it goes drifting away, it goes moving away. . b.11 f.9 p.86| ihcuixtihui , qu- (qujcujxtiuj). they go reeling it up. . b.2 f.3 p.73| ihneuctiuh , qu- (qujnecutiuh). it goes smelling it. . b.11 f.11 p.102| ihtlacatiuh (ytlacatiuh). it becomes corrupted, it goes becoming corrupted. . b.10 f.8 p.132b| ihtotihtihui , m[o]- (mjtotitivi). they go dancing. . b.2 f.6 p.113| ihyaxtihui (hiaxtiuj). they go stinking. x>. b.2 f.2 p.58| ilpitiuh , t- (tilpitiuh). you go bound. . b.6 f.19 p.242| imacaztihui , qu- (qujmacaztivi). they go fearing it. . b.6 f.6 p.68| itquitihui , qu- (qujtqujtivi). they go carrying it. . b.2 f.8 p.140| iyauhtiuh , ontla- (ontlaiiauhtiuh). he goes making offering gestures. . b.2 f.9 p.156| macuextihtihui , mo- (momacuextitiuj). they go provided with bracelets. . b.2 f.1 p.44| mamaltiuh , quima- (quimamamaltiuh). he proceeds boring it. . b.7 f.2 p.27| mantiuh atl =zan (zan^mantiuh atl). mansa agua; mansa agua que corre y va llana. . 55m-13| matlaztiuh =nino (matlaztiuh =nino). andar codeando o dando de codo. . 71m1-021| mauhtihtihui , mo- (momauhtitivi). they go fearing. . b.12 f.5 p.76| metztli =hueixtiuh in (hueixtiuh in metztli). crecer la luna. x +phrase>. 55m-4| mictihui , om- (onmjctivi). they go along dying. . b.4 f.3 p.21| mintihui , quim- (qujnmjntivi). they go shooting arrows at them. . b.12 f.7 p.111| namictiuh , quin- (qujnnamjctiuh). it goes to contend with them. . b.12 f.6 p.86| namoxtihui , tla- (tlanamoxtivi). they go along looting. x>. b.12 f.6 p.84| nanacaztlachixtihui (nanacaztlachixtiuj). they go looking from side to side. x>. b.2 f.1 p.51| napalohtihuiya , qui- (qujnapalotiuja). he went carrying it. . b.1 f.1 p.3| nechicohtihui , qui- (qujnechicotiuj). they go gathering it. . b.2 f.3 p.73| nentihui (nentivi). ; they go along living. . b.6 f.20 p.259| notztiuh , quin- (qujnnotztiuh). he goes advising them; he goes speaking to them. . b.10 f.12 p.191| ohtlatocatihui (otlatocatiuj). they go traveling their course; they go walking the course. . b.4 f.6 p.57| ololhuihtihui , c- (cololhujtivi). they go encircling him; they go surrounding him. . b.2 f.6 p.115| onotihui (onotivi). they go along. . b.2 f.7 p.122| oquichehuatiuh (oqujcheoatiuh). he goes bearing himself like a man. . b.2 f.1 p.48| palantiuh (palantiuh). it rots, it goes rotting. . b.10 f.8 p.132b| pepetlauhtihui (pepetlauhtivi). they go naked; they each go naked. . b.2 f.8 p.140| peuhtiuh , om- (vmpeuhtiuh). it goes beginning. . b.4 f.1 p.1| pitztihui , qui- (qujpitztiuj). they go blowing it. . b.2 f.3 p.81| poliuhtihui (poliuhtiuhi). he proceeds to vanish, he goes vanishing. . b.7 f.1 p.3| quetztihuiya , qui- (quiquetztiuja). they went raising it. . b.1 f.1 p.3| quiquiztiuh (qujqujztiuh). ; it goes sticking out; it goes continually emerging. . b.4 f.3 p.24| tenhuitectiuh , mo- (motenvitectiuh). he goes crying out while striking his mouth with his hand. . b.12 f.7 p.103| tentiuh (tentiuh). it goes filled up; it goes full; it goes filled. . b.12 f.6 p.92| tlantiuh ==otlantia (tlantiuh ==otlantia). yrse acabando o consumiendo algo. . 71m2-22| tlatzihuitiuh , non- (nontlatzivitiuh). I go being lazy. . b.6 f.20 p.254| tontiuh , tla- (tlatontiuh). it goes loosening. . b.6 f.13 p.161| tzacuihtihuiya , hualla- (oallatzacujtivia). they came last. . b.2 f.7 p.129| tzatzauctihui , quihual- (qujoaltzatzacutivi). they go stopping it up. . b.2 f.8 p.140| tzimpachohtiuh , te- (tetzinpachotiuh). he goes directing from the rear. . b.12 f.3 p.40| tzotzontihui , qui- (qujtzotzontivi). they go beating it. . b.2 f.7 p.122| xexeliuhtiuh (xexeliuhtiuh). it goes dividing; it goes spreading. . b.12 f.3 p.40| xelohtiuh =nite=onitexelohtiah (xelohtiuh =nite=onitexelohtiah). colarse o meterse entre^otros, hendiendo por ellos. . 71m2-27| yacantiuh , te- (teiacantiuh). he goes leading people. . b.2 f.9 p.156| yahualohtihui , tla- (tlaiaoalotiuj). they go in procession, they go circling. . b.2 f.3 p.72| yollalihtihui , qui- (qujiollalitiuj). they go consoling him. . b.2 f.3 p.70| zaliuhtiuh (‡aliuhtiuh). it goes adhering. . b.2 f.5 p.104| zalohtiuh , mo- (mo‡alotiuh). it goes being glued. . b.9 f.7 p.96| *aux15*** huicaticalac , quihual- (qujvalhujcaticalac). it entered carrying it. . b.12 f.7 p.110| manenenticalaqui (manenenticalaquj). he enters on all fours. . b.5 f.2 p.175| *aux16*** actitlaza =nic (actitlaza =nic). hundir tierra. . 71m1-131| aquetztitlaza , c- (caquetztitla‡a). they throw it on its back. . b.11 f.7 p.60| poliuhtitlaxtli =tla (tlapoliuhtitlaxtli). atajado hombre o muger que no acierta a hablar por le auer conuencido; confuso assi (assi is confundirme); atajado que no acierta a hablar; por le auer conuen#cido; confundido; atonito y turbado. x>. 55m-1| _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 11:51:38 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 07:51:38 -0400 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? tlaxtlahui Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jun 2 12:24:16 2014 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 07:24:16 -0500 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <20140602075138.2u7ff76dc0s4w8ck@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: That's an interesting question, Michael. I looked through the bugs in book 11 of the Florentine Codex and didn't see any dragonflies. Paul Wolf's comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary doesn't have an entry for the usual Spanish word, lib?lula, so I won't bother going through the other dictionaries. Perhaps the list members who speak Nahuatl as their mother tongue can help us out, or perhaps Jonathan Amith, who evidently has spent a lot of time learning how to talk about natural things in Nahuatl. -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de Michael McCafferty Enviado el: lunes, 2 de junio de 2014 06:52 a. m. Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org Asunto: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? tlaxtlahui Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jun 2 14:37:07 2014 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 09:37:07 -0500 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <20140602100330.ov21mq19ss48ggc4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Other terms to look for in Spanish, besides "lib?lula" (which is fancy talk in Mexico) are "se?orita" and especially "caballito del diablo". My Otom?-speaking wife uses the latter term, which is common in central and north-central Mexico, at least. See: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lib%C3%A9lula _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From karttu at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 14:05:35 2014 From: karttu at comcast.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 10:05:35 -0400 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <001001cf7e5d$92212de0$b66389a0$@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: I know there is a word for dragonfly, and I can't think of it. As I recall, it is a compound noun. Joe should be able to help. Fran Karttunen On Jun 2, 2014, at 8:24 AM, David Wright wrote: > That's an interesting question, Michael. I looked through the bugs > in book > 11 of the Florentine Codex and didn't see any dragonflies. Paul Wolf's > comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary doesn't have an entry for > the usual > Spanish word, lib?lula, so I won't bother going through the other > dictionaries. Perhaps the list members who speak Nahuatl as their > mother > tongue can help us out, or perhaps Jonathan Amith, who evidently > has spent a > lot of time learning how to talk about natural things in Nahuatl. > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl- > bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de Michael McCafferty > Enviado el: lunes, 2 de junio de 2014 06:52 a. m. > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly > > Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? > > tlaxtlahui > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 15:56:06 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 11:56:06 -0400 Subject: dragonfly Message-ID: Fritz Jonathan Amith responded to me directly, and positively. I regret that he didn't respond to the list. The list has been virtually dead for a long time. Perhaps people are being discouraged from responding to the list rather than to the individual? Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 16:55:36 2014 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 12:55:36 -0400 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <20140602075138.2u7ff76dc0s4w8ck@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: In Ameyaltepec, Guerrero, it is a:yoyontsi:n. This is derived from the root a:, water, and the verb yoma, which is the motion made by a woman as she is grinding nixtamal on a metate, sort of a concave swooping motion. The same motion is used to describe that of a man engaging in missionary position sex and is used in a riddle of doble sentido. In Oapan the term aabio:ntsi:n is used (lit. 'little toy airplane'). Although this is descriptive it might come from a folk interpretation of a:yoyontsi:n as the words sound similar. I have also heard the two terms used to refer to Megaloptera adults. These might well be local terms. The term meaning "water copulator" (cf. a:yoyontsi:n) is found in Nuaulu (Roy Ellen, Nuaulu Ethnozoology: A Systematic Inventory, p. 146-7). In Navajo it is a term meaning "which is spread out on water" o "which projects over the water". (L. Wyman and F. Bailey, Navajo Indian Ethnoentomology, pp. 52-53. Here the term also includes ant-lions (i.e., adults). On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? > > tlaxtlahui > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Jun 2 17:50:43 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 12:50:43 -0500 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <20140602115606.khdnjcrpc0koswsg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, In the Huasteca, dragonfly is apipiyallotl. John On Jun 2, 2014, at 10:56, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Fritz > > Jonathan Amith responded to me directly, and positively. > > I regret that he didn't respond to the list. The list has been virtually dead for a long time. Perhaps people are being discouraged from responding to the list rather than to the individual? > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 16:09:53 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 12:09:53 -0400 Subject: dragonfly Message-ID: Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 11:52:19 -0400 [11:52:19 AM EDT] From: Michael McCafferty Add to Address book (mmccaffe at indiana.edu) To: Jonathan Amith Add to Address book (jdanahuatl at gmail.com) Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly Headers: Show All Headers Thanks, Jonathan. Joe found 'dragonfly larvae' in Molina but not 'dragonfly'. Miami-Illinois has /meemeehSikiiwa/ 'he has a big-big head'. (/S/ = "sh") French has la libellule, la demoiselle and le creve-yeux (canadien). Michael Quoting Jonathan Amith : In Ameyaltepec, Guerrero, it is a:yoyontsi:n. This is derived from the root a:, water, and the verb yoma, which is the motion made by a woman as she is grinding nixtamal on a metate, sort of a concave swooping motion. The same motion is used to describe that of a man engaging in missionary position sex and is used in a riddle of doble sentido. In Oapan the term aabio:ntsi:n is used (lit. 'little toy airplane'). Although this is descriptive it might come from a folk interpretation of a:yoyontsi:n as the words sound similar. I have also heard the two terms used to refer to Megaloptera adults. These might well be local terms. The term meaning "water copulator" (cf. a:yoyontsi:n) is found in Nuaulu (Roy Ellen, Nuaulu Ethnozoology: A Systematic Inventory, p. 146-7). In Navajo it is a term meaning "which is spread out on water" o "which projects over the water". (L. Wyman and F. Bailey, Navajo Indian Ethnoentomology, pp. 52-53. Here the term also includes ant-lions (i.e., adults). On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Michael McCafferty wrote: Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? tlaxtlahui Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From k_salmon at ipinc.net Mon Jun 2 17:44:27 2014 From: k_salmon at ipinc.net (Kier Salmon) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 10:44:27 -0700 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Years ago in Zacatecas, A Verzcruzan native speaker taught me that it was ?Apipiyalotl.? On Jun 2, 2014, at 9:55 AM, Jonathan Amith wrote: > In Ameyaltepec, Guerrero, it is a:yoyontsi:n. This is derived from the > root a:, water, and the verb yoma, which is the motion made by a woman as > she is grinding nixtamal on a metate, sort of a concave swooping motion. > The same motion is used to describe that of a man engaging in missionary > position sex and is used in a riddle of doble sentido. > > In Oapan the term aabio:ntsi:n is used (lit. 'little toy airplane'). > Although this is descriptive it might come from a folk interpretation of > a:yoyontsi:n as the words sound similar. > > I have also heard the two terms used to refer to Megaloptera adults. > > These might well be local terms. The term meaning "water copulator" (cf. > a:yoyontsi:n) is found in Nuaulu (Roy Ellen, Nuaulu Ethnozoology: > A Systematic Inventory, p. 146-7). In Navajo it is a term meaning "which is > spread out on water" o "which projects over the water". (L. Wyman and F. > Bailey, Navajo Indian Ethnoentomology, pp. 52-53. Here the term also > includes ant-lions (i.e., adults). > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: > >> Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? >> >> tlaxtlahui >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Mon Jun 2 18:36:35 2014 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 11:36:35 -0700 Subject: dragonfly Message-ID: I was told @ IDIEZ by a person fron Chicontepec it was "apipiyalli". Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S? III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Kier Salmon Date:06/02/2014 10:44 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "Nahuat-l ((messages))" Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly Years ago in Zacatecas, A Verzcruzan native speaker taught me that it was ?Apipiyalotl.? On Jun 2, 2014, at 9:55 AM, Jonathan Amith wrote: > In Ameyaltepec, Guerrero, it is a:yoyontsi:n.? This is derived from the > root a:, water, and the verb yoma, which is the motion made by a woman as > she is grinding nixtamal on a metate, sort of a concave swooping motion. > The same motion is used to describe that of a man engaging in missionary > position sex and is used in a riddle of doble sentido. > > In Oapan the term aabio:ntsi:n is used (lit. 'little toy airplane'). > Although this is descriptive it might come from a folk interpretation of > a:yoyontsi:n as the words sound similar. > > I have also heard the two terms used to refer to Megaloptera adults. > > These might well be local terms. The term meaning "water copulator" (cf. > a:yoyontsi:n) is found in Nuaulu (Roy Ellen, Nuaulu Ethnozoology: > A Systematic Inventory, p. 146-7). In Navajo it is a term meaning "which is > spread out on water" o "which projects over the water". (L. Wyman and F. > Bailey, Navajo Indian Ethnoentomology, pp. 52-53. Here the term also > includes ant-lions (i.e., adults). > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Michael McCafferty > wrote: > >> Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? >> >> tlaxtlahui >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr Mon Jun 2 19:17:27 2014 From: budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr (Richard BUDELBERGER) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 21:17:27 +0200 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <001001cf7e5d$92212de0$b66389a0$@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: > Message du 02/06/14 14:37 > De : "David Wright" > A : "Nahuat-l" > Copie ? : > Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly > > That's an interesting question, Michael. I looked through the bugs in book > 11 of the Florentine Codex and didn't see any dragonflies. .CINCOCOPI: cincocopi:? 1. ~?plante ressemblant au ma?s.? Esp., mayz falso que parece mayz y no lo es.? Description. Sah11,282.? Cf. aussi?cinte?cocopi.? 2. ~?d?signe ?galement la libellule. Sah11,64.? ahn?zo cincocopi ahn?zo p?pal?tl?, ou une libellule ou un papillon - or a dragon-fly, or a butterfly. Sah9,97.? ? See?http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/c/nahuatlCIHUI.html#CINCOCOPI > Paul Wolf's > comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary doesn't have an entry for the usual > Spanish word, lib?lula, so I won't bother going through the other > dictionaries. Perhaps the list members who speak Nahuatl as their mother > tongue can help us out, or perhaps Jonathan Amith, who evidently has spent a > lot of time learning how to talk about natural things in Nahuatl. > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > En nombre de Michael McCafferty > Enviado el: lunes, 2 de junio de 2014 06:52 a. m. > Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Asunto: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly > > Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? > > tlaxtlahui > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 20:05:45 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 16:05:45 -0400 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <393631766.31859.1401736647406.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f10> Message-ID: Thanks to all for sharing your terms for 'dragonfly'. As in the case of the names for insects (birds, trees, etc.) in other languages, there seems to be a good deal of dialectal variation in Nahuatl for this yolcatl. I grew up calling dragonflies "snake-feeders". Didn't even hear the word 'dragonfly' until I was a teenager. Michael Quoting Richard BUDELBERGER : >> Message du 02/06/14 14:37 >> De : "David Wright" >> A : "Nahuat-l" >> Copie ? : >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly >> >> That's an interesting question, Michael. I looked through the bugs in book >> 11 of the Florentine Codex and didn't see any dragonflies. > > .CINCOCOPI: > cincocopi:? > 1. ~?plante ressemblant au ma?s.? > Esp., mayz falso que parece mayz y no lo es.? > Description. Sah11,282.? > Cf. aussi?cinte?cocopi.? > 2. ~?d?signe ?galement la libellule. Sah11,64.? > ahn?zo cincocopi ahn?zo p?pal?tl?, ou une libellule ou un papillon - > or a dragon-fly, or a butterfly. Sah9,97.? > ? > See?http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/c/nahuatlCIHUI.html#CINCOCOPI > >> Paul Wolf's >> comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary doesn't have an entry for the usual >> Spanish word, lib?lula, so I won't bother going through the other >> dictionaries. Perhaps the list members who speak Nahuatl as their mother >> tongue can help us out, or perhaps Jonathan Amith, who evidently has spent a >> lot of time learning how to talk about natural things in Nahuatl. >> >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] >> En nombre de Michael McCafferty >> Enviado el: lunes, 2 de junio de 2014 06:52 a. m. >> Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Asunto: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly >> >> Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? >> >> tlaxtlahui >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 19:58:12 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 15:58:12 -0400 Subject: dragonfly In-Reply-To: <393631766.31859.1401736647406.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f10> Message-ID: Yes, thank you, Richard. The term cincocopi is indeed in Molina. We overlooked it. Michael Quoting Richard BUDELBERGER : >> Message du 02/06/14 14:37 >> De : "David Wright" >> A : "Nahuat-l" >> Copie ? : >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly >> >> That's an interesting question, Michael. I looked through the bugs in book >> 11 of the Florentine Codex and didn't see any dragonflies. > > .CINCOCOPI: > cincocopi:? > 1. ~?plante ressemblant au ma?s.? > Esp., mayz falso que parece mayz y no lo es.? > Description. Sah11,282.? > Cf. aussi?cinte?cocopi.? > 2. ~?d?signe ?galement la libellule. Sah11,64.? > ahn?zo cincocopi ahn?zo p?pal?tl?, ou une libellule ou un papillon - > or a dragon-fly, or a butterfly. Sah9,97.? > ? > See?http://sites.estvideo.net/malinal/c/nahuatlCIHUI.html#CINCOCOPI > >> Paul Wolf's >> comprehensive Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary doesn't have an entry for the usual >> Spanish word, lib?lula, so I won't bother going through the other >> dictionaries. Perhaps the list members who speak Nahuatl as their mother >> tongue can help us out, or perhaps Jonathan Amith, who evidently has spent a >> lot of time learning how to talk about natural things in Nahuatl. >> >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] >> En nombre de Michael McCafferty >> Enviado el: lunes, 2 de junio de 2014 06:52 a. m. >> Para: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Asunto: [Nahuat-l] dragonfly >> >> Can someone send me the term(s) for 'dragonfly'? >> >> tlaxtlahui >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Jun 2 22:24:38 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 17:24:38 -0500 Subject: FLAS=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4s_?=for Nahuatl at Yale Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, It seems we have access to some FLAS grants for the Nahuatl program this summer at Yale (http://www.yale.edu/macmillan/lais/summer.html). The grant will cover tuition, room and board, and it can only be used by US citizens who are studying at FLAS-granting universities (undergraduates and graduate students are elegible). If you or someone you know fits this profile and would like to study Nahuatl with us this summer, please reply to me off-list at idiez at me.com. John Sullivan Director, Yale Summer Nahuatl Program _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 12:18:42 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 08:18:42 -0400 Subject: Thank you, Chester Nez. Message-ID: Thank you, Chester Nez. Thank you, Navajo Code Talkers. Thank you for your service to your country. Even though your country treated you like second class citizens, even though your country attempted to eradicate your language you persevered. You repaid enmity with kindness. You repaid segregation with loyalty. Thanks to your efforts our country was successful in the Pacific theater of war. I hope that we have learned that diversity is what makes us strong. I want to thank you personally because you have transformed my life. Thanks to your service, our Congress recognized the importance of the study of foreign languages, and of regionally important languages and established a system of scholarships to allow US citizens to study these languages. Thanks to the program they established, I was able to learn Nahuatl, the Aztec language: as Robert Frost wrote in his poem ?The Road Not Taken,? ?And that has made all the difference.? Studying Nahuatl has opened whole new worlds to me. I have, over the course of my career, attempted to share those worlds with others. It has enriched my life in so many ways; I simply cannot begin to enumerate them here. So, thank you Chester Nez. Thank you, Navajo Code Talkers. -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 518-608-4522 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cienhuac at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 23:00:13 2014 From: cienhuac at gmail.com (Velez Ramirez) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 18:00:13 -0500 Subject: "Orgullosa de si misma" Message-ID: Estimados listeros, conocer? alguno de ustedes acaso la versi?n nahuatl del siguiente poema?: Desde donde se posan las ?guilas, desde donde se yerguen los jaguares, el Sol es invocado. Como un escudo que baja, as? se va poniendo el sol. En M?xico est? cayendo la noche, la guerra merodea por todas partes, ?Oh Dador de la vida!, se acerca la guerra. Orgullosa de s? misma se levanta la cuidad de M?xico-Tenochtitlan. Aqu? nadie teme la muerte en la guerra. ?sta es nuestra gloria. ?ste es tu mandato. ?Oh Dador de la vida! Tenedlo presente, oh pr?ncipes, no lo olvid?is. ?Qui?n podr? sitiar a Tenochtitlan? ?Qui?n podr? conmover los cimientos del cielo...? Con nuestras flechas, Con nuestros escudos, est? existiendo la ciudad ?M?xico-Tenochtitlan subsiste! Supuestamente pertenece a los Cantares. Si es el caso, ser?a alguno tan amable de escribirlo? Tlazohcamaticuilmic _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jun 6 13:00:02 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 09:00:02 -0400 Subject: "Orgullosa de si misma" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: De lo que puedo discernir en el Internet, este poema ha sido traducido por Garibay y aparece en los Cantares. Pero no tengo copia de los Cantares para verificar. Michael Quoting Velez Ramirez : > Estimados listeros, > conocer? alguno de ustedes acaso la versi?n nahuatl del siguiente poema?: > > Desde donde se posan las ?guilas, > desde donde se yerguen los jaguares, > el Sol es invocado. > > Como un escudo que baja, > as? se va poniendo el sol. > En M?xico est? cayendo la noche, > la guerra merodea por todas partes, > ?Oh Dador de la vida!, > se acerca la guerra. > > Orgullosa de s? misma > se levanta la cuidad de M?xico-Tenochtitlan. > Aqu? nadie teme la muerte en la guerra. > ?sta es nuestra gloria. > ?ste es tu mandato. > ?Oh Dador de la vida! > Tenedlo presente, oh pr?ncipes, > no lo olvid?is. > ?Qui?n podr? sitiar a Tenochtitlan? > ?Qui?n podr? conmover los cimientos del cielo...? > > Con nuestras flechas, > Con nuestros escudos, > est? existiendo la ciudad > ?M?xico-Tenochtitlan subsiste! > > > Supuestamente pertenece a los Cantares. > > Si es el caso, ser?a alguno tan amable de escribirlo? > > Tlazohcamaticuilmic > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jadrian.perezr at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 18:35:33 2014 From: jadrian.perezr at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Juan_Adri=C3=A1n_P=C3=A9rez_Rivera?=) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 13:35:33 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=9COrgullosa_de_s=C3=AD_misma=E2=80=9C?= Message-ID: Hola, acerca del poema, lo busqu? en Cantares Mexicanos. Como lo escribieron, est? incompleto, en el libro vienen 3 partes (al inicio, en medio y al final) que quiero poner antes de pasar a la versi?n nahuatl: 1er p?rrafo del poema Ya reverdece, ya brota y florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en Acolhuacan; donde est? el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli; en tierra seca, Tezozomoctli su riqueza, su palabra tambi?n viven *p?rrafo en medio (despu?s de 'este es tu mandato oh dador de la vida') a ustedes sus hijos Bien, ?Qui?n en verdad obtendr? con su trabajo la estera del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Dios? Al final del ?ltimo p?rrafo: Que en paz nos guarde el Dador de la vida me aflijo que ?l lo diga aqu? ?C?mo han de permanecer las cosas? Aparte de todo, en el p?rrafo final del poema en nahuatl, en ning?n lado dice 'con nuestras flechas, con nuestros escudos'; si bien es un difrasismo y queda en el poema, no aparece en la versi?n original. Y bueno el poema completo en nahuatl es este (lo copio fielmente de Cantares Mexicanos, como pueden notar necesita paleograf?a, ya estoy en eso): Ye itzmolintimani, xotlancuepontimanian zan ca inchoquiz y nitla'toaya y in Acolmiztli, ya i Techontlalantzin i in Acolihuacan y in Tenochtli manca, in Acamapich in Tlalhuacpa y in Tezozomoctli yehua yncococauh intlatol no zan onnemi a ohuaya Yn quauhpetlapan ocelopetlapa ontlatlauhtilo ya in Tonatiuh (en el texto dice 'Santa Mar?a' pero obviamente eso es un invento gachup?n... por eso pongo Tonatiuh) Zan chimaltemo yehuan Ypalnemohuani oyohualtemoc Mexico ya tizatl yhuitl moyahuatihuitz tlalpan ahci ye nican ohuaya Ammonahuatil anmonecuiltonol anteteuctin in Quauhtlecohuatl in Cahualtzin y oancontlaneuhque ymahuizo yn Ipalnemoa chimaltemoc nican a in Mexico ya ohuaya ohuaya Zan ye tenyotimani atl on yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y ye ica mahuizohua ayac quimacaci yectlin miquiztli antepilhuan huiya iuh amechnahuati ycelteotl y yehuan 'Ipalnemohuani' (esto lo puse porque en el poema dice literal Dios) *yn amipilhuan a ohuaya Y yectlin ma yhui ac nel quiciehuiz y chimalypetlatl y ya ytlacochicpal y yehuan Ipalnemohuani ohuaya (de nuevo puse Ipalnemohuani, porque dec?a Dios) Ye xicyocoyacan xiquelnamiquican antepilhuan huia ?ac quimoyahuaz atl o yan tepetla in Tenochtitlan i? ?Aquin quitopehuaz yn itlaxillo yn ilhuicatl a ohuaya? yn maoc huel omani ya atl o yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y maoc zan ihuiyan techmotlatilin Ipalnemohuani ohua yya yye ohuaye ninentlamati a maquintoh nica in queni tlamamaniz a ohuaya? Tambi?n es importante se?alar que la traducci?n al castellano que dan en el libro de Cantares Mexicanos difiere en algunas cosas respecto al poema que escribieron. Si gustan puedo subir la versi?n en castellano que plantean los estudiosos acerca de esta poes?a. Bibliograf?a: Le?n Portilla, Miguel. ?Cantares Mexicanos? 1ed, editorial UNAM. vol. II,Tomo 1. P240-245 Ma totahtzin anmechmopieli. Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Fri Jun 6 22:26:15 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 00:26:15 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=9COrgullosa_de_s=C3=AD_misma=E2=80=9C?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Muchas gracias por haber encontrado y subido el poema, que yo hab?a buscado en vano. Bueno, el espa?ol no es mi lengua materna (ni tampoco el n?huatl), pero me parece que ?orgullosa de s? misma? no traduce tenyotimani (/te:n-yo?-ti-mani/), que ser?a m?s bien algo como ?es famosa?, ?es reputada?, ?es de gran renombre? - y hasta m?s precisamente ?yace famosa?, ?se extiende gloriosa? etc., con el auxiliar (-ti-)mani que marca la ocupaci?n de una superficie. No es la ?nica discordancia entre el texto y ?sta traducci?n. Por eso, si es que se prepara una nueva traducci?n, ser? interesante verla. Saludos Michel Launey > Message du 06/06/14 21:11 > De : "Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera" > A : "nahuatl" > Copie ? : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] ?Orgullosa de s? misma? > > Hola, acerca del poema, lo busqu? en Cantares Mexicanos. Como lo escribieron, est? incompleto, en el libro vienen 3 partes (al inicio, en medio y al final) que quiero poner antes de pasar a la versi?n nahuatl: 1er p?rrafo del poema Ya reverdece, ya brota y florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en Acolhuacan; donde est? el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli; en tierra seca, Tezozomoctli su riqueza, su palabra tambi?n viven *p?rrafo en medio (despu?s de 'este es tu mandato oh dador de la vida') a ustedes sus hijos Bien, ?Qui?n en verdad obtendr? con su trabajo la estera del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Dios? Al final del ?ltimo p?rrafo: Que en paz nos guarde el Dador de la vida me aflijo que ?l lo diga aqu? ?C?mo han de permanecer las cosas? Aparte de todo, en el p?rrafo final del poema en nahuatl, en ning?n lado dice 'con nuestras flechas, con nuestros escudos'; si bien es un difrasismo y queda en el poema, no aparece en la versi?n original. Y bueno el poema completo en nahuatl es este (lo copio fielmente de Cantares Mexicanos, como pueden notar necesita paleograf?a, ya estoy en eso): Ye itzmolintimani, xotlancuepontimanian zan ca inchoquiz y nitla'toaya y in Acolmiztli, ya i Techontlalantzin i in Acolihuacan y in Tenochtli manca, in Acamapich in Tlalhuacpa y in Tezozomoctli yehua yncococauh intlatol no zan onnemi a ohuaya Yn quauhpetlapan ocelopetlapa ontlatlauhtilo ya in Tonatiuh (en el texto dice 'Santa Mar?a' pero obviamente eso es un invento gachup?n... por eso pongo Tonatiuh) Zan chimaltemo yehuan Ypalnemohuani oyohualtemoc Mexico ya tizatl yhuitl moyahuatihuitz tlalpan ahci ye nican ohuaya Ammonahuatil anmonecuiltonol anteteuctin in Quauhtlecohuatl in Cahualtzin y oancontlaneuhque ymahuizo yn Ipalnemoa chimaltemoc nican a in Mexico ya ohuaya ohuaya Zan ye tenyotimani atl on yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y ye ica mahuizohua ayac quimacaci yectlin miquiztli antepilhuan huiya iuh amechnahuati ycelteotl y yehuan 'Ipalnemohuani' (esto lo puse porque en el poema dice literal Dios) *yn amipilhuan a ohuaya Y yectlin ma yhui ac nel quiciehuiz y chimalypetlatl y ya ytlacochicpal y yehuan Ipalnemohuani ohuaya (de nuevo puse Ipalnemohuani, porque dec?a Dios) Ye xicyocoyacan xiquelnamiquican antepilhuan huia ?ac quimoyahuaz atl o yan tepetla in Tenochtitlan i? ?Aquin quitopehuaz yn itlaxillo yn ilhuicatl a ohuaya? yn maoc huel omani ya atl o yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y maoc zan ihuiyan techmotlatilin Ipalnemohuani ohua yya yye ohuaye ninentlamati a maquintoh nica in queni tlamamaniz a ohuaya? Tambi?n es importante se?alar que la traducci?n al castellano que dan en el libro de Cantares Mexicanos difiere en algunas cosas respecto al poema que escribieron. Si gustan puedo subir la versi?n en castellano que plantean los estudiosos acerca de esta poes?a. Bibliograf?a: Le?n Portilla, Miguel. ?Cantares Mexicanos? 1ed, editorial UNAM. vol. II,Tomo 1. P240-245 Ma totahtzin anmechmopieli. Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Jun 7 23:54:42 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 19:54:42 -0400 Subject: ?Orgullosa de s=?iso-8859-1?Q?=ED_?=misma? Message-ID: Dear Michel and oc cequintin listeros, I am glad that Michel put us back on the proper road to understanding "tenyotimani" and put the "orgullosa de si misma" notion to rest. Since "tentli" is a very frequent element in discussing 'fame' and 'reputation', I thought it might of interest to dig out some examples of "tentli" embedded in the verb "yoa". So I consulted Molina (his three dictionaries) and Sahagun (the Florentine Codex) and compiled the following list. It is repetitious, but when do you hit a nail just once? 55m Molina, 1555 71m2 Molina, 1571 Nahuatl-Spanish 71m1 Molina, 1571 Spanish-Nahuatl (m1 and m2 are bound together, but each one with its own title page) The number that appears hyphenated with m1 and m2 is my computer file number and, unfortunately, the program doesn't return the folio number. FC Florentine Codex Since an item in this list may correspond to a single occurrence or many occurrences in various books of the Florentine, it is not practical to give page numbers here. The main (first) entry is a regularized spelling, including glottal stop written as "h", but without vowel length. The repeated version of a word or phrase is parentheses is Molina's or Sahagun's original spelling. Phrases (e.g., cualli notenyo =ahmo) use the '=' symbol to indicate inversion. Therefore: ahmo cualli notenyo. An element following '==' is Molina's preterit of the verb involved. If anything is not clear, I'll be glad to try to clarify. Joe * te:ntli yoa: *** cualli notenyo =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo). fama mala tener. 55m-9. cualli notenyo nihtoloca =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo nihtoloca). fama mala tener. 71m1-112. hualmotenyotia (oalmoteniotia). he gains fame. FC. hualmotenyotiaya (oalmoteniotiaia). he gained fame. FC. hueya notenyo =oc cencah=oc cencah ohueix notenyo. huel. oc cencah ohueyac notenyo (oc cencah hueya no tenyo ==oc cencah ohueix notenyo. huel. oc cencah ohueyac notenyo). crecer mucho mas mi fama. 71m2-13. intenyo (inte^io). their fame. FC. intenyo (jnteio). their glory. FC. intenyo (intenio). their renown. FC. itenyo (itenio). her fame. FC. itenyo (jteio). his fame. FC. motenyo (mote>io). your fame, your renown. FC. motenyo (moteio). your honor. FC. motenyotia (moteniotia). he is famed. FC. motenyotia (moteniotia). they achieve fame, they achieve glory. FC. notenyo (notenio). my glory. FC. ommotenyotico (onmoteiotico). he came to have fame. FC. ommotenyotih (Onmoteioti). he brought fame on himself. FC. ommotenyotihqueh (onmoteniotique). they became famous. FC. ontenyohua (onteiooa). he is given fame. FC. ontlatenyotia (ontlateniotia). he gives honor. FC. oquimontenyotico (oqujmonteiotico). he came to glorify them. FC. oquitenyoticoh (oqujteiotico). they came to give him fame. FC. pan actimoteca in itenyotzin dios =nohuiyan te=nohuiyan otepan actimotecac in itenyotzin dios (nohuian tepan actimoteca in iteyotzin dios ==nohuian otepan actimotecac initeyotzin dios). estenderse, o bolar por todas partes la fama de nuestro se?or dios. 71m2-13. quintenyotia (qujnteiotia). he provides glory to them. FC. quitenyotia (quiteniotia). he prices it. FC. tenyo =no (noteyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. tenyo =no (notenyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. tenyocan (teiocan). place of glory. FC. tenyocan (teniocan). place of glory. FC. tenyoh (tenyo). claro en fama. 55m-3. tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 71m1-101. tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 55m-7. tenyoh (tenyo). esclarecido. 71m1-102. tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 71m1-121. tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 55m-10. tenyoh (teio). having fame. FC. tenyoh (teio). having good repute. FC. tenyoh (tenyo). persona afamada, o encumbrada en honrra. 71m2-17. tenyoh (teyo). se?alado en bien. 71m1- 192. tenyoh (teyo). se?alado en bien. 55m- 18. tenyohua =ni= (teyoa =ni=). cobrar buena fama y renombre. 71m2-16. tenyohua =ni (tenyoa =ni). afamarse. 71m1-012. tenyohua =ni (tenyohua =ni). esclarecerse o afamarse. 71m1-102. tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih (tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih). afamarse. 71m2-17. tenyotia =nino (tenyotia =nino). afamarse. 71m1-012. tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih (tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih). afamar y dar honra a otro. 71m2-17. tenyotia =nite=oniteteyotih (teyotia =nite=oniteteyotih). afamar a otro. 71m2-16. tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). afamar a otro. 71m1-012. tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 71m1-101. tenyotia =nite (tenyoptia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 55m-8. tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). escarecer o afamar a otro. 55m-8. tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). milagroso hazer algo. 55m-14. tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih (tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih). poner precio alo que se ade vender. 71m2-17. tenyotia =nitla (teyotia =nitla). apreciar poner o declarar el precio dela cosa. 55m-1. tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). apreciar, poner o declarar el precio delo que vale lo que se vende. 71m1-022. tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar tassar o apreciar. 55m-9. tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar, tassar o apreciar. 71m1-111. tenyotiani =mo (mo-teyotiani). el que se afama, o adquire nombre de honra, o de infamia. 71m2-10. tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 71m1-112. tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 55m-9. tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa,famosa o esclarecida. 71m1-132. tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa famosa o esclarecida. 55m-11. tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador tal. 55m-1. tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador o tassador delo que se vende. 71m2-23. tenyotiani =tla (tlatenyotiani). tassador o apreciador deloque se vende. 71m2-23. tenyotica (tenyotica). afamadamente, con fama y honrra. 71m2-17. tenyotica (tenyotica). famosamente assi. 71m1-112. tenyotica (tenyotica). gloriosamente. 71m1-121. tenyotica (tenyotica). loablemente. 71m1-141. tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 71m1-082. tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 55m-6. tenyotiliztli =te (teteyotiliztli). el acto de dar honra o renombre aotro. 71m2-18. tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). engrandecimiento. 71m1-101. tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). glorificacion tal. 71m1-121. tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). esclarecimiento. 71m1-102. tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). estima precio. 71m1-111. tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). loa, alabanza, o honra que se da a alguno. 71m2-23. tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). alabado, honrado y afamado, ocosa tassada y apreciada. 71m2-23. tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). apreciada cosa assi. 55m-1. tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). engrandecido. 71m1-101. tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). esclarecido. 55m-8. tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). onrrado assi. 55m-15. tenyotl =huei (huei tenyotl). fama con mucha honra. 71m1-112. tenyotl (teyotl). fama, o honra. 71m2-16. tenyotl (teniotl). fame. FC. tenyotl (tenyotl). nombre por fama. 71m1-161. tenyotl (tenyotl). onrra. 55m-15. tetenyotia (teteiotia). she brings fame to others. FC. tiquimontenyotiz (tiqujmonteiotiz). you will render glory to them. FC. tiquintenyoticoh (tiquinteiotico). we came to give fame to them. FC. tiquintenyotiz (tiqujnteiotiz). you will give them glory. FC. * tlatenyoh (tlatenio). having a border. FC. [irrelevant to this list] tlatenyotia (tlateiotia). he provides fame. FC. tlatenyotihtica (tlateniotitica). he is bringing fame. FC. tlatenyotihtiuh (tlateniotitiuh). he goes extolling. FC. tontenyohuazqueh (tontenioazque). we will gain fame. FC. totenyo (toteio). our glory. FC. Quoting M Launey : > > Muchas gracias por haber encontrado y subido el poema, que yo hab?a > buscado en vano. > > Bueno, el espa?ol no es mi lengua materna (ni tampoco el n?huatl), > pero me parece que ?orgullosa de s? misma? no traduce tenyotimani > (/te:n-yo?-ti-mani/), que ser?a m?s bien algo como ?es famosa?, ?es > reputada?, ?es de gran renombre? - y hasta m?s precisamente ?yace > famosa?, ?se extiende gloriosa? etc., con el auxiliar (-ti-)mani que > marca la ocupaci?n de una superficie. > > No es la ?nica discordancia entre el texto y ?sta traducci?n. Por > eso, si es que se prepara una nueva traducci?n, ser? interesante > verla. > > Saludos > > Michel Launey > > > > > > > >> Message du 06/06/14 21:11 >> De : "Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera" >> A : "nahuatl" >> Copie ? : >> Objet : [Nahuat-l] ?Orgullosa de s? misma? >> >> Hola, acerca del poema, lo busqu? en Cantares Mexicanos. Como lo >> escribieron, est? incompleto, en el libro vienen 3 partes (al >> inicio, en medio y al final) que quiero poner antes de pasar a la >> versi?n nahuatl: 1er p?rrafo del poema Ya reverdece, ya brota y >> florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en >> Acolhuacan; donde est? el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli; en >> tierra seca, Tezozomoctli su riqueza, su palabra tambi?n viven >> *p?rrafo en medio (despu?s de 'este es tu mandato oh dador de la >> vida') a ustedes sus hijos Bien, ?Qui?n en verdad obtendr? con su >> trabajo la estera del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Dios? Al >> final del ?ltimo p?rrafo: Que en paz nos guarde el Dador de la vida >> me aflijo que ?l lo diga aqu? ?C?mo han de permanecer las cosas? >> Aparte de todo, en el p?rrafo final del poema en nahuatl, en ning?n >> lado dice 'con nuestras flechas, con nuestros escudos'; si bien es >> un difrasismo y queda en el poema, no aparece en la versi?n >> original. Y bueno el poema completo en nahuatl es este (lo copio >> fielmente de Cantares Mexicanos, como pueden notar necesita >> paleograf?a, ya estoy en eso): Ye itzmolintimani, >> xotlancuepontimanian zan ca inchoquiz y nitla'toaya y in Acolmiztli, >> ya i Techontlalantzin i in Acolihuacan y in Tenochtli manca, in >> Acamapich in Tlalhuacpa y in Tezozomoctli yehua yncococauh intlatol >> no zan onnemi a ohuaya Yn quauhpetlapan ocelopetlapa ontlatlauhtilo >> ya in Tonatiuh (en el texto dice 'Santa Mar?a' pero obviamente eso >> es un invento gachup?n... por eso pongo Tonatiuh) Zan chimaltemo >> yehuan Ypalnemohuani oyohualtemoc Mexico ya tizatl yhuitl >> moyahuatihuitz tlalpan ahci ye nican ohuaya Ammonahuatil >> anmonecuiltonol anteteuctin in Quauhtlecohuatl in Cahualtzin y >> oancontlaneuhque ymahuizo yn Ipalnemoa chimaltemoc nican a in Mexico >> ya ohuaya ohuaya Zan ye tenyotimani atl on yan tepetl a in >> Tenochtitlan y ye ica mahuizohua ayac quimacaci yectlin miquiztli >> antepilhuan huiya iuh amechnahuati ycelteotl y yehuan >> 'Ipalnemohuani' (esto lo puse porque en el poema dice literal Dios) >> *yn amipilhuan a ohuaya Y yectlin ma yhui ac nel quiciehuiz y >> chimalypetlatl y ya ytlacochicpal y yehuan Ipalnemohuani ohuaya (de >> nuevo puse Ipalnemohuani, porque dec?a Dios) Ye xicyocoyacan >> xiquelnamiquican antepilhuan huia ?ac quimoyahuaz atl o yan tepetla >> in Tenochtitlan i? ?Aquin quitopehuaz yn itlaxillo yn ilhuicatl a >> ohuaya? yn maoc huel omani ya atl o yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y >> maoc zan ihuiyan techmotlatilin Ipalnemohuani ohua yya yye ohuaye >> ninentlamati a maquintoh nica in queni tlamamaniz a ohuaya? Tambi?n >> es importante se?alar que la traducci?n al castellano que dan en el >> libro de Cantares Mexicanos difiere en algunas cosas respecto al >> poema que escribieron. Si gustan puedo subir la versi?n en >> castellano que plantean los estudiosos acerca de esta poes?a. >> Bibliograf?a: Le?n Portilla, Miguel. ?Cantares Mexicanos? 1ed, >> editorial UNAM. vol. II,Tomo 1. P240-245 Ma totahtzin anmechmopieli. >> Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl >> mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jadrian.perezr at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 02:29:48 2014 From: jadrian.perezr at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Juan_Adri=C3=A1n_P=C3=A9rez_Rivera?=) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 21:29:48 -0500 Subject: ?Orgullosa de s=?utf-8?Q?=C3=AD_?=misma? In-Reply-To: <20140607195442.lli7io7oowok40gw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hola, es claro que ?orgullosa de s? misma? es una traducci?n no muy correcta. Pero no s?lo esa, todo el poema est? parcialmente mal traducido. La versi?n que circula por internet no es la m?s correcta, bas?ndonos en la versi?n nahuatl. Por ejemplo, 'Ipalnemohuani' lo traducen como 'dador de la vida', la traducci?n correcta es 'Aquel por quien se vive'. Tambi?n, el poema no dice 'desde donde se posan las ?guilas...', dice: 'En el petate (estera) del ?guila'. Mi propuesta de traducci?n es la siguiente: Ya reverdece, ya brota y florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en Acolhuahcan donde est? el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli en la tierra seca, Tezozomoctli, su riqueza y su palabra tambi?n all? viven En el petate (estera) del ?guia En el petate del jaguar se invoca/ hay invocaci?n al Sol Desciende como escudo ?l Auel por quien se vive descendi? de noche en M?xico la tiza, las plumas vienen a esparcirse sobre la tierra llegan aqu? Su mandato (o regla), su riqueza ustedes, grandes se?ores Cuauhtlecoatl, Cahualtzin los han pedido prestados La de Aquel por quien se vive descendi? como escudo aqu? en M?xico Famosa permanece el agua, el cerro (la ciudad) de Tenochtitlan por eso gana honor Nadie teme la muerte recta ustedes nobles como se los mand? el Dios verdadero a ustedes sus hijos, sus nobles En verdad, que de manera correcta obtengan el petate (estera) del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de ?l, de Dios Consid?renlo, recu?rdenlo, ustedes los nobles ?Quien guerrear? al agua, al cerro (a la ciudad) de Tenochtitlan? ?Qui?n destruir? los cimientos del cielo? Que a?n perdure La ciudad de Tenochtitlan, que en paz nos guarde Aquel por quien se vive me aflijo que ?l lo diga aqu? ?C?mo han de permanecer las cosas? No es m?s que mi humilde propuesta de traducci?n, puede hacer discrepancias, pero por lo que he estudiado de nahuatl, as? quedar?a en castellano. Saludos a todos los listeros. M? totahtzin anmechmopieli nihcaticahuan -Achcauhtli- El 7/6/14, Campbell, R. Joe escribi?: > Dear Michel and oc cequintin listeros, > > I am glad that Michel put us back on the proper road to > understanding "tenyotimani" and put the "orgullosa de si misma" notion > to rest. > > Since "tentli" is a very frequent element in discussing 'fame' and > 'reputation', I thought it might of interest to dig out some examples of > "tentli" embedded in the verb "yoa". So I consulted Molina (his three > dictionaries) and Sahagun (the Florentine Codex) and compiled the following > list. It is repetitious, but when do you hit a nail just once? > > 55m Molina, 1555 > 71m2 Molina, 1571 Nahuatl-Spanish > 71m1 Molina, 1571 Spanish-Nahuatl > (m1 and m2 are bound together, but each one with its own title page) > The number that appears hyphenated with m1 and m2 is my computer file > number and, unfortunately, the program doesn't return the folio number. > > FC Florentine Codex > Since an item in this list may correspond to a single occurrence or > many occurrences in various books of the Florentine, it is not > practical to give page numbers here. > > The main (first) entry is a regularized spelling, including glottal stop > written as "h", but without vowel length. The repeated version of a word > or phrase is parentheses is Molina's or Sahagun's original spelling. > Phrases (e.g., cualli notenyo =ahmo) use the '=' symbol to indicate > inversion. > Therefore: ahmo cualli notenyo. > An element following '==' is Molina's preterit of the verb involved. > > If anything is not clear, I'll be glad to try to clarify. > > Joe > > > > * te:ntli yoa: *** > cualli notenyo =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo). fama mala tener. 55m-9. > cualli notenyo nihtoloca =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo nihtoloca). fama > mala tener. 71m1-112. > hualmotenyotia (oalmoteniotia). he gains fame. FC. > hualmotenyotiaya (oalmoteniotiaia). he gained fame. FC. > hueya notenyo =oc cencah=oc cencah ohueix notenyo. huel. oc cencah > ohueyac notenyo (oc cencah hueya no tenyo ==oc cencah ohueix > notenyo. huel. oc cencah ohueyac notenyo). crecer mucho mas mi fama. > 71m2-13. > intenyo (inte^io). their fame. FC. > intenyo (jnteio). their glory. FC. > intenyo (intenio). their renown. FC. > itenyo (itenio). her fame. FC. > itenyo (jteio). his fame. FC. > motenyo (mote>io). your fame, your renown. FC. > motenyo (moteio). your honor. FC. > motenyotia (moteniotia). he is famed. FC. > motenyotia (moteniotia). they achieve fame, they achieve glory. FC. > notenyo (notenio). my glory. FC. > ommotenyotico (onmoteiotico). he came to have fame. FC. > ommotenyotih (Onmoteioti). he brought fame on himself. FC. > ommotenyotihqueh (onmoteniotique). they became famous. FC. > ontenyohua (onteiooa). he is given fame. FC. > ontlatenyotia (ontlateniotia). he gives honor. FC. > oquimontenyotico (oqujmonteiotico). he came to glorify them. FC. > oquitenyoticoh (oqujteiotico). they came to give him fame. FC. > pan actimoteca in itenyotzin dios =nohuiyan te=nohuiyan otepan > actimotecac in itenyotzin dios (nohuian tepan actimoteca in > iteyotzin dios ==nohuian otepan actimotecac initeyotzin dios). > estenderse, o bolar por todas partes la fama de nuestro se?or dios. > 71m2-13. > quintenyotia (qujnteiotia). he provides glory to them. FC. > quitenyotia (quiteniotia). he prices it. FC. > tenyo =no (noteyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. > tenyo =no (notenyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. > tenyocan (teiocan). place of glory. > FC. > tenyocan (teniocan). place of glory. > FC. > tenyoh (tenyo). claro en fama. 55m-3. > tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 71m1-101. > tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 55m-7. > tenyoh (tenyo). esclarecido. 71m1-102. > tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 71m1-121. > tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 55m-10. > tenyoh (teio). having fame. FC. > tenyoh (teio). having good repute. FC. > tenyoh (tenyo). persona afamada, o encumbrada en honrra. 71m2-17. > tenyoh (teyo). se?alado en bien. 71m1- > 192. > tenyoh (teyo). se?alado en bien. 55m- > 18. > tenyohua =ni= (teyoa =ni=). cobrar buena fama y renombre. 71m2-16. > tenyohua =ni (tenyoa =ni). afamarse. > 71m1-012. > tenyohua =ni (tenyohua =ni). esclarecerse o afamarse. 71m1-102. > tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih (tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih). afamarse. > 71m2-17. > tenyotia =nino (tenyotia =nino). afamarse. 71m1-012. > tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih (tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih). afamar y > dar honra a otro. 71m2-17. > tenyotia =nite=oniteteyotih (teyotia =nite=oniteteyotih). afamar a > otro. 71m2-16. > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). afamar a otro. 71m1-012. > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 71m1-101. > tenyotia =nite (tenyoptia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 55m-8. > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). escarecer o afamar a otro. 55m-8. > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). milagroso hazer algo. 55m-14. > tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih (tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih). poner > precio alo que se ade vender. 71m2-17. > tenyotia =nitla (teyotia =nitla). apreciar poner o declarar el precio > dela cosa. 55m-1. > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). apreciar, poner o declarar el precio > delo que vale lo que se vende. 71m1-022. > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar tassar o apreciar. 55m-9. > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar, tassar o apreciar. 71m1-111. > tenyotiani =mo (mo-teyotiani). el que se afama, o adquire nombre de > honra, o de infamia. 71m2-10. > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 71m1-112. > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 55m-9. > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa,famosa o esclarecida. > 71m1-132. > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa famosa o esclarecida. > 55m-11. > tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador tal. 55m-1. > tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador o tassador delo que se > vende. 71m2-23. > tenyotiani =tla (tlatenyotiani). tassador o apreciador deloque se > vende. 71m2-23. > tenyotica (tenyotica). afamadamente, con fama y honrra. 71m2-17. > tenyotica (tenyotica). famosamente assi. 71m1-112. > tenyotica (tenyotica). gloriosamente. 71m1-121. > tenyotica (tenyotica). loablemente. 71m1-141. > tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 71m1-082. > tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 55m-6. > tenyotiliztli =te (teteyotiliztli). el acto de dar honra o renombre > aotro. 71m2-18. > tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). engrandecimiento. 71m1-101. > tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). glorificacion tal. 71m1-121. > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). esclarecimiento. 71m1-102. > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). estima precio. 71m1-111. > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). loa, alabanza, o honra que se da > a alguno. 71m2-23. > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). alabado, honrado y afamado, ocosa > tassada y apreciada. 71m2-23. > tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). apreciada cosa assi. 55m-1. > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). engrandecido. 71m1-101. > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). esclarecido. 55m-8. > tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). onrrado assi. 55m-15. > tenyotl =huei (huei tenyotl). fama con mucha honra. 71m1-112. > tenyotl (teyotl). fama, o honra. 71m2-16. > tenyotl (teniotl). fame. FC. > tenyotl (tenyotl). nombre por fama. 71m1-161. > tenyotl (tenyotl). onrra. 55m-15. > tetenyotia (teteiotia). she brings fame to others. FC. > tiquimontenyotiz (tiqujmonteiotiz). you will render glory to them. FC. > tiquintenyoticoh (tiquinteiotico). we came to give fame to them. FC. > tiquintenyotiz (tiqujnteiotiz). you will give them glory. FC. > * tlatenyoh (tlatenio). having a border. FC. [irrelevant to this list] > tlatenyotia (tlateiotia). he provides fame. FC. > tlatenyotihtica (tlateniotitica). he is bringing fame. FC. > tlatenyotihtiuh (tlateniotitiuh). he goes extolling. FC. > tontenyohuazqueh (tontenioazque). we will gain fame. FC. > totenyo (toteio). our glory. FC. > > > > > > > > > Quoting M Launey : > >> >> Muchas gracias por haber encontrado y subido el poema, que yo hab?a >> buscado en vano. >> >> Bueno, el espa?ol no es mi lengua materna (ni tampoco el n?huatl), >> pero me parece que ?orgullosa de s? misma? no traduce tenyotimani >> (/te:n-yo?-ti-mani/), que ser?a m?s bien algo como ?es famosa?, ?es >> reputada?, ?es de gran renombre? - y hasta m?s precisamente ?yace >> famosa?, ?se extiende gloriosa? etc., con el auxiliar (-ti-)mani que >> marca la ocupaci?n de una superficie. >> >> No es la ?nica discordancia entre el texto y ?sta traducci?n. Por >> eso, si es que se prepara una nueva traducci?n, ser? interesante >> verla. >> >> Saludos >> >> Michel Launey >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Message du 06/06/14 21:11 >>> De : "Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera" >>> A : "nahuatl" >>> Copie ? : >>> Objet : [Nahuat-l] ?Orgullosa de s? misma? >>> >>> Hola, acerca del poema, lo busqu? en Cantares Mexicanos. Como lo >>> escribieron, est? incompleto, en el libro vienen 3 partes (al >>> inicio, en medio y al final) que quiero poner antes de pasar a la >>> versi?n nahuatl: 1er p?rrafo del poema Ya reverdece, ya brota y >>> florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en >>> Acolhuacan; donde est? el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli; en >>> tierra seca, Tezozomoctli su riqueza, su palabra tambi?n viven >>> *p?rrafo en medio (despu?s de 'este es tu mandato oh dador de la >>> vida') a ustedes sus hijos Bien, ?Qui?n en verdad obtendr? con su >>> trabajo la estera del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Dios? Al >>> final del ?ltimo p?rrafo: Que en paz nos guarde el Dador de la vida >>> me aflijo que ?l lo diga aqu? ?C?mo han de permanecer las cosas? >>> Aparte de todo, en el p?rrafo final del poema en nahuatl, en ning?n >>> lado dice 'con nuestras flechas, con nuestros escudos'; si bien es >>> un difrasismo y queda en el poema, no aparece en la versi?n >>> original. Y bueno el poema completo en nahuatl es este (lo copio >>> fielmente de Cantares Mexicanos, como pueden notar necesita >>> paleograf?a, ya estoy en eso): Ye itzmolintimani, >>> xotlancuepontimanian zan ca inchoquiz y nitla'toaya y in Acolmiztli, >>> ya i Techontlalantzin i in Acolihuacan y in Tenochtli manca, in >>> Acamapich in Tlalhuacpa y in Tezozomoctli yehua yncococauh intlatol >>> no zan onnemi a ohuaya Yn quauhpetlapan ocelopetlapa ontlatlauhtilo >>> ya in Tonatiuh (en el texto dice 'Santa Mar?a' pero obviamente eso >>> es un invento gachup?n... por eso pongo Tonatiuh) Zan chimaltemo >>> yehuan Ypalnemohuani oyohualtemoc Mexico ya tizatl yhuitl >>> moyahuatihuitz tlalpan ahci ye nican ohuaya Ammonahuatil >>> anmonecuiltonol anteteuctin in Quauhtlecohuatl in Cahualtzin y >>> oancontlaneuhque ymahuizo yn Ipalnemoa chimaltemoc nican a in Mexico >>> ya ohuaya ohuaya Zan ye tenyotimani atl on yan tepetl a in >>> Tenochtitlan y ye ica mahuizohua ayac quimacaci yectlin miquiztli >>> antepilhuan huiya iuh amechnahuati ycelteotl y yehuan >>> 'Ipalnemohuani' (esto lo puse porque en el poema dice literal Dios) >>> *yn amipilhuan a ohuaya Y yectlin ma yhui ac nel quiciehuiz y >>> chimalypetlatl y ya ytlacochicpal y yehuan Ipalnemohuani ohuaya (de >>> nuevo puse Ipalnemohuani, porque dec?a Dios) Ye xicyocoyacan >>> xiquelnamiquican antepilhuan huia ?ac quimoyahuaz atl o yan tepetla >>> in Tenochtitlan i? ?Aquin quitopehuaz yn itlaxillo yn ilhuicatl a >>> ohuaya? yn maoc huel omani ya atl o yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y >>> maoc zan ihuiyan techmotlatilin Ipalnemohuani ohua yya yye ohuaye >>> ninentlamati a maquintoh nica in queni tlamamaniz a ohuaya? Tambi?n >>> es importante se?alar que la traducci?n al castellano que dan en el >>> libro de Cantares Mexicanos difiere en algunas cosas respecto al >>> poema que escribieron. Si gustan puedo subir la versi?n en >>> castellano que plantean los estudiosos acerca de esta poes?a. >>> Bibliograf?a: Le?n Portilla, Miguel. ?Cantares Mexicanos? 1ed, >>> editorial UNAM. vol. II,Tomo 1. P240-245 Ma totahtzin anmechmopieli. >>> Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl >>> mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 00:28:11 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 19:28:11 -0500 Subject: Report from the 7th Pastoral Workshop on Nahuatl Language and Culture Message-ID: Dear Listeros, I thought many of you would be interested in know about this event, so here I am sharing some of my notes from the field. From Monday the 9th to Thursday the 12th of June 2014, the 7th Pastoral Workshop on Nahuatl Language and Culture took place in Tehuipango, in the Sierra de Zongolica in Central Veracruz. The workshop was organized and presided over by Monsignor Felipe Arizmendi Esquivel, Bishop of San Cristobal de las Casas. I was fortunate enough to be invited and be present during two days of the workshop, and to be able to interview the Bishop and talk to several of the participants. This objective of this series of workshops which has been going on since 2012 is to create an official, translation approved by Rome of the catholic mass into Nahuatl, and as a secondary objective create a unified liturgical language to be used in the many dioceses with Nahuatl speakers. The initiative was started under Pope Benedict, but according to Bishop Arizmendi, Pope Francis has already expressed his interest in the project and his willingness to let translation work take place in the countries in which the linguistic expertise is found instead of in Rome. The translation is a collective work of a group of Nahuatl speaking priests representing different dialect areas working conjointly on a a version that is meant to be acceptable to speakers in all regions. This requires many deep discussions of local usage, and semantics. Originally the aim was to have a couple of different versions, perhaps three, but at the first workshop in 2012 at Tepeyac, a consensus formed among the delegates that it should be possible to make a single authorized version in a new variety of Nahuatl that would be widely acceptable. The translation does include footnotes allowing for substitutions of certain terms in cases where meaning or pronunciation differs too much to reconcile all speakers into a single version. The orthography settled upon at the first meeting uses the letters k, s, h and hu ? a kind of compromise orthography using elements of the two main contending orthographies. There are still some advocates of using w instead of hu among the participants. It is likely the first time in several centuries that the Catholic Church has taken any official interest in the Nahuatl language, and the result will be the first official translation of the mass into Nahuatl ever. Many interesting topics of Nahuatl grammar stirred discussion among the participating priests. For descriptions of some of the discussions about the translation you may have a look at my blog where I describe the event in more detail. My new nahuatl blog is at: http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.mx/ Best wishes, Magnus -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jadrian.perezr at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 17:49:07 2014 From: jadrian.perezr at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Juan_Adri=C3=A1n_P=C3=A9rez_Rivera?=) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 12:49:07 -0500 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl Message-ID: About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are being done. You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make serious damage to this beautiful language. In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to classical nahuatl. I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of catholic mass, I would really like that. If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard and explain the reasons why we should do this. We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their own language, because many of them don't know how to write it correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From e.a.polanco at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 21:39:58 2014 From: e.a.polanco at gmail.com (Edward Polanco) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:39:58 -0500 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Juan, I agree with your discomfort regarding the Church's attempt to create a standardized Nahuatl. However, I am uncomfortable privlageing the Nahuatl spoken in Tenochtitlan. For two reasons. 1) there is evidence of variations of Nahuatl spoken in the early colonial period, suggesting variation pre-contact. 2) Like any language, Nahuatl has evolved over the last 495 years, and it would be unfair to conceptualize Nahuatl from the valley as the "original" or more correct variant of Nahuatl. I think consulting scholars would be fantastic, but consulting macehualmeh would be even better. That would make any translation less problematic, although it would be far from perfect. Regards, Edward El jun 12, 2014 4:23 PM, "Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera" < jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> escribi?: > About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > > I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > being done. > > You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > serious damage to this beautiful language. > > In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl > that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my > opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, > Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio > Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl > rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you > may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana > Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > classical nahuatl. > > I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. > Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > catholic mass, I would really like that. > > If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > > http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf > > Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > and explain the reasons why we should do this. > > We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their > own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > > Achcauhtli > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Jun 12 22:32:09 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 00:32:09 +0200 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, The importante thing is not to create a standard version of Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also promote inter variant communication. There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn?t make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of these varietal differences. So?.. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel Le?n Portilla a few years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should?t. It would be viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. Hmm, notequixpoh Adri?n, ?por qu? deber?amos consultar a tres acad?micos no-nativohablantes de n?huatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por ?ltimo, ?por qu? crees tan importante traducir la misa al n?huatl? Ya estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy cat?lico), ?no crees? John On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera wrote: > About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > > I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > being done. > > You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > serious damage to this beautiful language. > > In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl > that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my > opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, > Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio > Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl > rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you > may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana > Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > classical nahuatl. > > I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. > Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > catholic mass, I would really like that. > > If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf > > Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > and explain the reasons why we should do this. > > We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their > own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > > Achcauhtli > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From slwolitz at earthlink.net Fri Jun 13 00:29:08 2014 From: slwolitz at earthlink.net (seth wolitz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 20:29:08 -0400 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <5702528E-DEED-4260-A15E-900315C52998@me.com> Message-ID: Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it fully but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it with a point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly colonialist misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in some concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of the mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy prosetyzing? Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands full here and a clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! Seth On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > Notequixpoyohuan, > The importante thing is not to create a standard version of Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also promote inter variant communication. > There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn?t make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of these varietal differences. So?.. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. > I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel Le?n Portilla a few years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should?t. It would be viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. > Hmm, notequixpoh Adri?n, ?por qu? deber?amos consultar a tres acad?micos no-nativohablantes de n?huatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por ?ltimo, ?por qu? crees tan importante traducir la misa al n?huatl? Ya estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy cat?lico), ?no crees? > John > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera wrote: > >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things >> >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are >> being done. >> >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make >> serious damage to this beautiful language. >> >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl >> that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my >> opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, >> Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio >> Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl >> rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you >> may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana >> Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to >> classical nahuatl. >> >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to >> consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of >> catholic mass, I would really like that. >> >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf >> >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard >> and explain the reasons why we should do this. >> >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their >> own language, because many of them don't know how to write it >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. >> >> Achcauhtli >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 01:59:09 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 21:59:09 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl mass Message-ID: Before the conversation goes too far afield, we should remember that before Vatican II (essentially 1960) the mass was only said in Latin. This tradition even pre-dates the Council of Trent, 1565, and the conquest itself. The mass in the vernacular in the Catholic world is of very recent origin. What this means is that there was no particular reason to translate it into Nahuatl during the evangelization, since it wasn't even in Spanish. At the same time, some of the key prayers, Sanctus, Gloria, Credo, Pater Noster, etc., were translated into Nahuatl. As several folks, notably my colleague Louise Burkhart, have noted there was no standard form for these prayers in Nahuatl in the 16th century. -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 518-608-4522 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From e.a.polanco at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 02:00:51 2014 From: e.a.polanco at gmail.com (Edward Polanco) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 21:00:51 -0500 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <77F196C4-0873-4873-9C69-76365F3D589B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dear all, The Inquisition censored the translation of Scripture into indigenous languages in the late 16th century (1580s). High probability for mistranslation and thus heterodoxy was used as a justification for this decree. Sahag?n and Molina were both consulted on the matter by the Holy office in Mexico. Regards, Edward Sent from a wireless device El jun 12, 2014 8:53 PM, "seth wolitz" escribi?: > Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it > fully but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it > with a point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly > colonialist misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in > some concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of > the mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy > prosetyzing? Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands > full here and a clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! > Seth > On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > > > Notequixpoyohuan, > > The importante thing is not to create a standard version of > Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of > all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and > time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good > staring point here, but his system has been improved by > Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > > As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to > understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each > other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would > also promote inter variant communication. > > There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. > This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. > Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl > using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn?t > make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican > Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more > and more aware of these varietal differences. So?.. Classical Nahuatl is > not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, > would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we > understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read > multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. > > I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern > lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel Le?n Portilla a few > years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as > ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, > Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should?t. It would be > viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. > > Hmm, notequixpoh Adri?n, ?por qu? deber?amos consultar a tres > acad?micos no-nativohablantes de n?huatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por > ?ltimo, ?por qu? crees tan importante traducir la misa al n?huatl? Ya > estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy cat?lico), ?no crees? > > John > > > > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera < > jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > >> > >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > >> being done. > >> > >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > >> serious damage to this beautiful language. > >> > >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl > >> that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my > >> opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, > >> Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio > >> Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl > >> rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you > >> may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana > >> Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > >> classical nahuatl. > >> > >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > >> consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. > >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > >> catholic mass, I would really like that. > >> > >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > >> > http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf > >> > >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > >> and explain the reasons why we should do this. > >> > >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their > >> own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > >> > >> Achcauhtli > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 03:43:56 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 23:43:56 -0400 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While the Inquisition was charged with monitoring the activity, it was Church policy that the Bible only be in Latin, the Vulgate. Scripture was not translated into any local language, Spanish, English, Chinese, etc. Sent from my iPad John Schwaller Professor of History University at Albany > On Jun 12, 2014, at 10:00 PM, Edward Polanco wrote: > > Dear all, > > The Inquisition censored the translation of Scripture into indigenous > languages in the late 16th century (1580s). High probability for > mistranslation and thus heterodoxy was used as a justification for this > decree. Sahag?n and Molina were both consulted on the matter by the Holy > office in Mexico. > > Regards, > Edward > Sent from a wireless device > El jun 12, 2014 8:53 PM, "seth wolitz" escribi?: > >> Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it >> fully but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it >> with a point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly >> colonialist misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in >> some concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of >> the mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy >> prosetyzing? Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands >> full here and a clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! >> Seth >>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: >>> >>> Notequixpoyohuan, >>> The importante thing is not to create a standard version of >> Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of >> all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and >> time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good >> staring point here, but his system has been improved by >> Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. >>> As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to >> understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each >> other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would >> also promote inter variant communication. >>> There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. >> This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. >> Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl >> using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn?t >> make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican >> Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more >> and more aware of these varietal differences. So?.. Classical Nahuatl is >> not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, >> would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we >> understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read >> multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. >>> I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern >> lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel Le?n Portilla a few >> years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as >> ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, >> Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should?t. It would be >> viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. >>> Hmm, notequixpoh Adri?n, ?por qu? deber?amos consultar a tres >> acad?micos no-nativohablantes de n?huatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por >> ?ltimo, ?por qu? crees tan importante traducir la misa al n?huatl? Ya >> estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy cat?lico), ?no crees? >>> John >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera < >>> jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things >>>> >>>> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm >>>> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic >>>> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are >>>> being done. >>>> >>>> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to >>>> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL >>>> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make >>>> serious damage to this beautiful language. >>>> >>>> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should >>>> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl >>>> that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my >>>> opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, >>>> Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio >>>> Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl >>>> rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you >>>> may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana >>>> Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to >>>> classical nahuatl. >>>> >>>> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be >>>> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around >>>> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is >>>> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to >>>> consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. >>>> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of >>>> catholic mass, I would really like that. >>>> >>>> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious >>>> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf >>>> >>>> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard >>>> and explain the reasons why we should do this. >>>> >>>> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their >>>> own language, because many of them don't know how to write it >>>> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. >>>> >>>> Achcauhtli >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Fri Jun 13 12:01:46 2014 From: micc2 at cox.net (Mario E. Aguilar) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 05:01:46 -0700 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe that forcing modern day Nahuatlahtoh to write....speak.... think in "the Classical Nahuatl" of Moctekwzuma and Sahagun would be akin to forcing Mexicans, Peruvians, and Colombians to speak, write and think in the Castilian of Cervantes..... or forcing Brits, Aussies, and Yanks, to do the same in Shakespeare's English. -----Original Message----- From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of seth wolitz Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:29 PM To: John Sullivan Cc: list nahuatl discussion; Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it fully but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it with a point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly colonialist misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in some concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of the mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy prosetyzing? Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands full here and a clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! Seth On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > Notequixpoyohuan, > The importante thing is not to create a standard version of Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also promote inter variant communication. > There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn?t make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of these varietal differences. So .. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. > I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel Le?n Portilla a few years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should?t. It would be viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. > Hmm, notequixpoh Adri?n, ?por qu? deber?amos consultar a tres acad?micos no-nativohablantes de n?huatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por ?ltimo, ?por qu? crees tan importante traducir la misa al n?huatl? Ya estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy cat?lico), ?no crees? > John > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera wrote: > >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things >> >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are >> being done. >> >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make >> serious damage to this beautiful language. >> >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the >> nahuatl that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. >> And in my opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an >> agreement, Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre >> Horacio Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the >> nahuatl rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. >> Also, you may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa >> Ana Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to >> classical nahuatl. >> >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to >> consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of >> catholic mass, I would really like that. >> >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn4 >> 2/874.pdf >> >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard >> and explain the reasons why we should do this. >> >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of >> their own language, because many of them don't know how to write it >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. >> >> Achcauhtli >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 15:08:14 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 10:08:14 -0500 Subject: Mass in Nahuatl Message-ID: Dear Listeros, Thanks for all your responses, I agree entirely with your worries, but would like to clarify a couple of points that were perhaps not clear in the original mail. The first is that I am not participating in the work, but was simply invited as an observer. The second is that the majority of the participating priests are macehualme, i.e. native speakers, and that also the process of translation exactly includes the priests taking the translations to the people in their parishes to get input on how to improve it.It was exactly the Bishops point that it should be the community and not academic linguists that shsould decide what translations are or arent acceptable. Also the Bishop does not personally participate in the translatin but simply organizes and leads the effort and mediates with Rome and the other Mexican Bishops. And Third, it is not the?case that Rome is invested in creating a standardized nahuatl, they are only creatng a satndardized mass (which still allows for local variations to suit lingustic needs specific to individual cmmunities of speakers) - they do not intend for this Unified Nahuatl to have any linguistic impact outside of the sphere of the Catholic church (though in my opinion it undoubtedly will have). I will keep you informed about any further developments thhat I become aware of. Best wishes, -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jadrian.perezr at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 18:19:59 2014 From: jadrian.perezr at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Juan_Adri=C3=A1n_P=C3=A9rez_Rivera?=) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:19:59 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 338, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Seth Have you heard the nahuatl of Mexico City (Santa Ana Tlacotenco)? It's almost equal to Classical Nahuatl, maybe 90% the same. What about them? They are wrong because they speak the language of tlahtoqueh, of XVI century?? Nobody forced them to speak like that, it's just that they actually speak well their language. We have to understand that most of the 'mahcehualmeh' of other areas (Veracruz, Morelos, etc) don't know to speak their language correctly. We believe that just because they are native speakers, they know everything and they are never wrong about nahuatl grammar. Even Librado Silva Galeana, who was 'mahcehualli', studied his language at UNAM. He didn't feel he knew everything about nahuatl just because he was native speaker. He understood he needed to study more to master his knowledge in nahuatl. So, if you don't like classical nahuatl, then take the nahuatl of Santa Ana Tlacotenco as reference. I don't 'hate' other dialects, but we need standardization to save nahuatl, in order to have millions and millions of nahuatl speakers :) 2014-06-13 12:00 GMT-05:00 : > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Standardization of Nahuatl (John Schwaller) > 2. Re: Standardization of Nahuatl (Mario E. Aguilar) > 3. Mass in Nahuatl (Magnus Pharao Hansen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 23:43:56 -0400 > From: John Schwaller > To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl > Message-ID: <77E2C3B5-0D14-4D02-AEFD-96BE546BAB49 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > While the Inquisition was charged with monitoring the activity, it was > Church policy that the Bible only be in Latin, the Vulgate. Scripture was > not translated into any local language, Spanish, English, Chinese, etc. > > > Sent from my iPad > John Schwaller > Professor of History > University at Albany > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 10:00 PM, Edward Polanco > wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > The Inquisition censored the translation of Scripture into indigenous > > languages in the late 16th century (1580s). High probability for > > mistranslation and thus heterodoxy was used as a justification for this > > decree. Sahag?n and Molina were both consulted on the matter by the Holy > > office in Mexico. > > > > Regards, > > Edward > > Sent from a wireless device > > El jun 12, 2014 8:53 PM, "seth wolitz" > escribi?: > > > >> Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it > >> fully but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present > it > >> with a point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly > >> colonialist misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass > in > >> some concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no > copy of > >> the mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy > >> prosetyzing? Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your > hands > >> full here and a clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! > >> Seth > >>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > >>> > >>> Notequixpoyohuan, > >>> The importante thing is not to create a standard version of > >> Nahuatl. Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers > of > >> all variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space > and > >> time would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good > >> staring point here, but his system has been improved by > >> Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > >>> As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to > >> understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each > >> other. A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures > would > >> also promote inter variant communication. > >>> There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. > >> This. There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. > >> Classical Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl > >> using alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn > doesn?t > >> make too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican > >> Independence). As we progress in our study of this corpus we become more > >> and more aware of these varietal differences. So?.. Classical Nahuatl is > >> not what the four tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, > >> would this justify their variant substituting for all others? I hope we > >> understand today that multilingualism/multiculturalism (read > >> multi-variant-ism) is good for humanity: ethnocide is not. > >>> I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern > >> lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel Le?n Portilla a > few > >> years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as > >> ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, > >> Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should?t. It would be > >> viewed as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by > outsiders. > >>> Hmm, notequixpoh Adri?n, ?por qu? deber?amos consultar a tres > >> acad?micos no-nativohablantes de n?huatl para poder traducir la misa? Y > por > >> ?ltimo, ?por qu? crees tan importante traducir la misa al n?huatl? Ya > >> estuvo con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy cat?lico), ?no crees? > >>> John > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera < > >>> jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > >>>> > >>>> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > >>>> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > >>>> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > >>>> being done. > >>>> > >>>> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > >>>> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > >>>> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > >>>> serious damage to this beautiful language. > >>>> > >>>> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > >>>> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl > >>>> that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my > >>>> opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, > >>>> Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio > >>>> Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl > >>>> rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you > >>>> may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana > >>>> Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > >>>> classical nahuatl. > >>>> > >>>> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > >>>> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > >>>> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > >>>> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > >>>> consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. > >>>> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > >>>> catholic mass, I would really like that. > >>>> > >>>> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > >>>> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > >> > http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf > >>>> > >>>> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > >>>> and explain the reasons why we should do this. > >>>> > >>>> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their > >>>> own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > >>>> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > >>>> > >>>> Achcauhtli > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Nahuatl mailing list > >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Nahuatl mailing list > >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 05:01:46 -0700 > From: "Mario E. Aguilar" > To: "'seth wolitz'" , "'John Sullivan'" > > Cc: 'list nahuatl discussion' , 'Juan Adri?n > P?rez Rivera' > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl > Message-ID: <000701cf86ff$40f16ca0$c2d445e0$@cox.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I believe that forcing modern day Nahuatlahtoh to write....speak.... think > in "the Classical Nahuatl" of Moctekwzuma and Sahagun would be akin to > forcing Mexicans, Peruvians, and Colombians to speak, write and think in > the > Castilian of Cervantes..... or forcing Brits, Aussies, and Yanks, to do the > same in Shakespeare's English. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org > [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of seth wolitz > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:29 PM > To: John Sullivan > Cc: list nahuatl discussion; Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl > > Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it > fully > but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it with a > point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly colonialist > misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in some > concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of the > mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy prosetyzing? > Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands full here and > a > clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! > Seth > On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > > > Notequixpoyohuan, > > The importante thing is not to create a standard version of > Nahuatl. > Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all > variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time > would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring > point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > > As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to > understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each > other. > A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also > promote inter variant communication. > > There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. > There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. > Classical > Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using > alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn?t make > too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). > As > we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of > these varietal differences. So?.. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four > tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify > their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that > multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for > humanity: ethnocide is not. > > I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern > lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel Le?n Portilla a few > years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as > ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, > Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should?t. It would be > viewed > as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. > > Hmm, notequixpoh Adri?n, ?por qu? deber?amos consultar a tres > acad?micos no-nativohablantes de n?huatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por > ?ltimo, ?por qu? crees tan importante traducir la misa al n?huatl? Ya > estuvo > con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy cat?lico), ?no crees? > > John > > > > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera > wrote: > > > >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > >> > >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > >> being done. > >> > >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > >> serious damage to this beautiful language. > >> > >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the > >> nahuatl that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. > >> And in my opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an > >> agreement, Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre > >> Horacio Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the > >> nahuatl rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. > >> Also, you may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa > >> Ana Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > >> classical nahuatl. > >> > >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > >> consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. > >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > >> catholic mass, I would really like that. > >> > >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn4 > >> 2/874.pdf > >> > >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > >> and explain the reasons why we should do this. > >> > >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of > >> their own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > >> > >> Achcauhtli > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 10:08:14 -0500 > From: Magnus Pharao Hansen > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Mass in Nahuatl > Message-ID: > mfS0S9BB3Q at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Dear Listeros, > > Thanks for all your responses, I agree entirely with your worries, but > would like to clarify a couple of points that were perhaps not clear in the > original mail. The first is that I am not participating in the work, but > was simply invited as an observer. The second is that the majority of the > participating priests are macehualme, i.e. native speakers, and that also > the process of translation exactly includes the priests taking the > translations to the people in their parishes to get input on how to improve > it.It was exactly the Bishops point that it should be the community and not > academic linguists that shsould decide what translations are or arent > acceptable. Also the Bishop does not personally participate in the > translatin but simply organizes and leads the effort and mediates with Rome > and the other Mexican Bishops. And Third, it is not the?case that Rome is > invested in creating a standardized nahuatl, they are only creatng a > satndardized mass (which still allows for local variations to suit > lingustic needs specific to individual cmmunities of speakers) - they do > not intend for this Unified Nahuatl to have any linguistic impact outside > of the sphere of the Catholic church (though in my opinion it undoubtedly > will have). > > I will keep you informed about any further developments thhat I become > aware of. > > Best wishes, > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 338, Issue 3 > *************************************** > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From yekeus at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 22:11:20 2014 From: yekeus at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Javier_Jim=C3=A9nez?=) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 17:11:20 -0500 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <000701cf86ff$40f16ca0$c2d445e0$@cox.net> Message-ID: La metx iehkoltial ze poaliztli in no zihtzin netx mo ihliliaia. -In Texinke, Xiklimonti oan in kaloilanke(San Nicolas de los Ranchos, , San Lucas Atzalan y San Pedro Yacuitlalpan de Puebla) ki piah nin tlahtol oan koak tik in kakih tik matih ke ahmo toh kaliknioan. -In no kompaletzin nealtikankatl (San Buena Ventura Nealtican Puebla) nik moh tlahtxitxioiliaiah oan oh ki mihtaliaia ke (nih kompaletzin) o ki mo tlazohtiliaia, oan oh kih mo tlapahpahtiliaia nin tlahtoltzin, tlen tlahtoli ahmoh ki mo piliahia oh ki mo aniliaia, ken ?ahtxio?, ?ohi?, oh mo txioahia ok zeh tlahtoli ohkatxi zente. Koak in no zihtzin oh kin mo tlatxitxioliaiah in tlakame tlen okzeh in altepeoh, oh kih matxiliaia keh in no zihtzin oh kih moh nekiltizkiaia ki mo zaloltiz in nin tlahtol, oan o mo ioloh mahtia. In koak oh ni tekit in CONAFE o tihkatka ti tlahtoliknime naoatl Veracruz ome tlakame, naoatl Hidalgo Ome Tlakame, aik oh tih mo tlahtolanaia notxin oh tik nehkia in to tlahtol man mo tenmahti ipan mo olohlozke okzehki tlahtolti. Netx nonotzaia ze no maiknio tle altepeoh Tlaxkalan, kon oh mo txioaiah ipan mo ololoaia toh tlahtol iknioan oah oh mo tlahtol anaia ken tih tlahkoihlozke notxtin. Nik nehmilia keh koak tik kahkahoazke in to tlahtol oan in toknioh ih tlahtol tik ahnazke, ih koak ti mo ohlolozke. Les comparto una historia que mi abuelo me contaba. -Los San Nocolasca, San Luque?os y San Pedre?os(San Nicol?s de los Ranchos, , San Lucas Atzalan y San Pedro Yacuitlalpan de Puebla) ten?an su habla y cuando los escuchas sabes que no son nuestros vecinos(de la comunidad/localidad/pueblo) -Mi compadre San Aventure?o (San Buena Ventura Nealtican Puebla), lo imitaba y dec?a (su compadre) que lo apreciaba mucho, e intercambiaban palabras, que no ten?a, las tomaba como ?semilla?, ?dif?cil?, y se hac?a una lengua m?s completa. Cuando mi abuelo imitaba las personas de otra localidad, sent?an que mi abuelo deseaba aprender su forma de hablar y entraban en confianza. Cuando Trabaje en CONAFE est?bamos hablantes del n?huatl, Nahuatl de Veracruz dos personas, n?huatl de Hidalgo dos personas y nunca nos pusimos de acuerdo, quer?amos que nuestras lenguas fuera base para anexar otras palabras (sin elegir una). Reflexiono, que no nos aferremos a nuestra lengua, intentemos tomar la forma del habla de nuestro hermano en ese momento tomaremos un solo sentido. I share a story my grandfather told me. -The San Nocolasca, San Luque?os and San Pedre?os (San Nicolas de los Ranchos, San Lucas and San Pedro Atzalan Yacuitlalpan of Puebla) had their speech and know when the tracks are not our neighbors (community / town / village) -My compadre San Aventure?o (San Buena Ventura Nealtican Puebla), imitated and said (his compadre) who loved him, and changed words, which has not, I took as "seed", "difficult", and became a language complete. When my grandfather imitated people from other region, felt that my grandfather wanted to learn their speech and entered confidence. When I was CONAFE, we were Nahuatl speakers, Veracruz Nahuatl two people, two people Hidalgo Nahuatl and we never make a deal our tongues out basis to append other words (not chosen). I reflect, not cling to our language, try to take the form of our brother speech then take one way. 2014-06-13 7:01 GMT-05:00 Mario E. Aguilar : > I believe that forcing modern day Nahuatlahtoh to write....speak.... think > in "the Classical Nahuatl" of Moctekwzuma and Sahagun would be akin to > forcing Mexicans, Peruvians, and Colombians to speak, write and think in > the > Castilian of Cervantes..... or forcing Brits, Aussies, and Yanks, to do the > same in Shakespeare's English. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org > [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of seth wolitz > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:29 PM > To: John Sullivan > Cc: list nahuatl discussion; Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl > > Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it > fully > but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it with a > point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly colonialist > misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in some > concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of the > mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy prosetyzing? > Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands full here and > a > clear polemic i before you. Good Luck! > Seth > On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote: > > > Notequixpoyohuan, > > The importante thing is not to create a standard version of > Nahuatl. > Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all > variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time > would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring > point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. > > As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to > understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each > other. > A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also > promote inter variant communication. > > There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. > There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. > Classical > Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using > alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn?t make > too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). > As > we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of > these varietal differences. So?.. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four > tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify > their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that > multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for > humanity: ethnocide is not. > > I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern > lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel Le?n Portilla a few > years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as > ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, > Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should?t. It would be > viewed > as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. > > Hmm, notequixpoh Adri?n, ?por qu? deber?amos consultar a tres > acad?micos no-nativohablantes de n?huatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por > ?ltimo, ?por qu? crees tan importante traducir la misa al n?huatl? Ya > estuvo > con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy cat?lico), ?no crees? > > John > > > > > > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera > wrote: > > > >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things > >> > >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm > >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic > >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are > >> being done. > >> > >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to > >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL > >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make > >> serious damage to this beautiful language. > >> > >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should > >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the > >> nahuatl that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. > >> And in my opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an > >> agreement, Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre > >> Horacio Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the > >> nahuatl rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. > >> Also, you may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa > >> Ana Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to > >> classical nahuatl. > >> > >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be > >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around > >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is > >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to > >> consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. > >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of > >> catholic mass, I would really like that. > >> > >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious > >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: > >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn4 > >> 2/874.pdf > >> > >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard > >> and explain the reasons why we should do this. > >> > >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of > >> their own language, because many of them don't know how to write it > >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. > >> > >> Achcauhtli > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Jun 14 17:07:39 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 19:07:39 +0200 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Notequixpoh, Vamos por partes. 1. Estoy completamente de acuerdo que tanto en espa?ol como en n?huatl existen errores de parte de los nativohablantes. Pero si est?s sugiriendo que las variantes de n?huatl son versiones incorrectas del idioma, est?s equivocado. Todas las variantes del n?huatl comparten una GRAN cantidad de sonidos, palabras y estructuras, y por eso se consideran variantes del idioma. Pero tambi?n cada variantes tiene sus particularidades, las cuales no son errores: s?lo es necesario codificar tanto los aspectos comunes y las particularidades por medio de la preparaci?n y publicaci?n de diccionarios y gram?ticas monoling?es. Las variantes de un idioma no son desvirtuaciones: al contrario, constituyen fuentes de riqueza cultural (y por ende, de perspectivas distintas que puedan contribuir a resolver problemas econ?micos, sociales y pol?ticos) que s?lo pueden enriquecer la vida humana. 2. Dije algo en mi primer correo, pero creo que no me di a entender bien. Ya hemos comprobado a trav?s de dos encuentros interdialectales que muchas de las variantes de n?huatl son mutuamente inteligibles. Hay muchas variantes que no hemos incluido todav?a en estas actividades, y si encontramos alguna variante que las dem?s no puedan entender para nada, yo ser? el primero en decirlo. Pero hasta que llegue ese momento, podemos operar con la seguridad de que todos los nativohablantes puede comunicarse entre s?. 3. Hablas como si el sector de los acad?micos y el sector de los nativohablantes se excluyeran. Quiz?s en el pasado esto era cierto. Pero te puedo asegurar que hay muchos acad?micos mexicanos que son nativohablantes de lenguas ind?genas. El que sus instituciones de adscripci?n no les permitan trabajar con su lengua es otro problema que hay que resolver. Tambi?n hay que resolver el problema m?s grave de que en general las universidades mexicanas ni siquiera contratan a nativohablantes para impartir materias en su idioma y su cultura. Y otro, que no existen en M?xico, programas acad?micos en los que el idioma utilizado para la impartici?n de materias y la escritura de trabajos acad?micos sea una lengua ind?gena. Sea como sea, hay que promover ahora que colaboren los acad?micos ind?genas y los no-ind?genas en la planeaci?n y la implementaci?n masiva de programas de docencia, investigaci?n y revitalizaci?n a nivel universitario. 4. Te invito al pr?ximo encuentro interdialectal que vamos a llevar a cabo en Cholula durante la tercera semana de enero de 2015. Si sabes hablar n?huatl podr?s participar directamente la comunicaci?n interdialectal. Si no sabes hablar, puedes por lo menos ser testigo del hecho, y as? convencerte de lo que estoy diciendo. Un abrazo, John On Jun 13, 2014, at 2:00, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera wrote: > Es simple. Si no quieren usar el nahuatl cl?sico, pueden basarse en el > nahuatl de Milpa Alta como referencia. Es muy similar (quiz? en m?s > del 90%) al nahuatl del siglo XVI. Es necesario estandarizar el idioma > porque as? garantizamos su supervivencia y podemos traducir no s?lo > misas, sino toda clase de textos y documentos legales muy ?tiles para > los hablantes de nahuatl, como actas de nacimiento, pasaportes, > libros, informaci?n del gobierno en internet, etc. > > Y respecto a ellos, a los nahua hablantes: Mucha gente que habla > espa?ol, dice expresiones como: 'A d?nde fuistes?', 'Qu? comistes', > 'la calor', 'cuando v?yamos', 'cuando ll?guemos', y no por ser > hablantes nativos de espa?ol quiere decir que hablen bien, verdad? Eso > estamos haciendo con el nahuatl. Asumimos que un dialecto est? bien > dicho 'porque as? lo hablan los nativos', es decir, no caemos en > cuenta de que los nahua hablantes hablan mal su propio idioma, as? > como mucha gente de comunidades peque?as habla mal espa?ol. Por eso me > gustar?a que existiera un est?ndar. > > Y porqu? consultar con acad?micos? Por eso mismo, porque ellos > estudian el idioma m?s que los propios hablantes. Ellos buscan > preservar el idioma. Te aseguro que muchos nahua hablantes no saben > contar m?s all? del cien en nahuatl, y no es discriminaci?n, sino que > en realidad mucha gente no sabe a profundidad su lengua nahuatl. > > Ya s? que es dif?cil comprender esto, pero creo que si no > estandarizamos el nahuatl, ?ste se va a desvirtuar mucho, y le podr?a > pasar lo que a idiomas como el zapoteco, en donde el idioma var?a > tanto, que de un pueblo a otro no se entienden, aunque ambos hablan > zapoteco. Y entonces, cuando eso pase, de qu? va a servir esa > multiculturalidad si s?lo 3 personas te van a entender? No ser?a mejor > un nahuatl, para podernos comunicar con comunidades de todo M?xico? No > ser?a genial que los de Veracruz y los de Morelos se entendieran al > 100% con los de SLP o DF? > > Saludos > Achcauhtli > > 2014-06-12 17:32 GMT-05:00, John Sullivan : >> Notequixpoyohuan, >> The importante thing is not to create a standard version of Nahuatl. >> Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all >> variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time >> would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring >> point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen. >> As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to >> understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each other. >> A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also >> promote inter variant communication. >> There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This. There >> were at least as many variants in the past as there are now. Classical >> Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using >> alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn?t make >> too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence). As >> we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of >> these varietal differences. So?.. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four >> tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify >> their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that >> multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for >> humanity: ethnocide is not. >> I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern lingua >> franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel Le?n Portilla a few years >> ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as ridiculous >> then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits, Nahuas >> themselves would not accept it, and they should?t. It would be viewed as the >> most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders. >> Hmm, notequixpoh Adri?n, ?por qu? deber?amos consultar a tres acad?micos >> no-nativohablantes de n?huatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por ?ltimo, >> ?por qu? crees tan importante traducir la misa al n?huatl? Ya estuvo con el >> trabajo misionero (y eso que soy cat?lico), ?no crees? >> John >> >> >> On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera >> wrote: >> >>> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things >>> >>> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm >>> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic >>> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are >>> being done. >>> >>> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to >>> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL >>> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make >>> serious damage to this beautiful language. >>> >>> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should >>> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the nahuatl >>> that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke. And in my >>> opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an agreement, >>> Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre Horacio >>> Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the nahuatl >>> rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation. Also, you >>> may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa Ana >>> Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to >>> classical nahuatl. >>> >>> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be >>> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around >>> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is >>> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to >>> consult with people like Dr. Le?n Portilla, Dr. L?pez Austin, Dr. >>> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of >>> catholic mass, I would really like that. >>> >>> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious >>> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl: >>> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn42/874.pdf >>> >>> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard >>> and explain the reasons why we should do this. >>> >>> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of their >>> own language, because many of them don't know how to write it >>> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards. >>> >>> Achcauhtli >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Jun 15 04:45:56 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 00:45:56 -0400 Subject: Compound Verbs Message-ID: Nocnihuan, Our recent discussion on "tenyohtimani" suggested to me that there be some benefit in an explicit consideration of compound verbs. My apologies for saying some obvious things -- just consider it my revenge on a friend for gravely explaining a woodworking tip to me one day -- to the effect that two 45 degree angles make a 90 degree angle. The pattern is basically: Verb1 + t(i) + Verb2 Verb1 is always in the preterit; verb2 is selected from the following list of "auxiliaries". In the left column, I have assigned serial numbers to them for easy notation. In this way, I can refer to them as AUX01, AUX02, AUX03, etc. 1 nemi 2 quetza 3 huetzi 4 mani 5 ehua 6 huitz 7 quiza 8 tlalia 9 tlehco 10 teca 11a ca 11b ye (of ca) 12 ihca 13 o 14a yauh1 (ya) 14b yauh2 (iuh) 15 calaqui 16 tlaza 17 temo 18 ahci 19 cahua Joe ******************************************** EXAMPLES aux01*** ahcitinemi , c- (cacitinemj). ; they go taking him; they go capturing him. . b.6 f.20 p.256| amictinemi =nic=onicamictinen (amictinemi =nic=onicamictinen). dessear algo, como el que anda muerto de sed. . 71m2-1| antinemi (antinemj). they go hunting. . b.10 f.10 p.171| apizmictinemi =n=onapizmictinen (apizmictinemi =n=onapizmictinen). andar muerto de hambre. . 71m2-2| atlitinemi , c- (catlitinemj). they go making him drink water. . b.10 f.8 p.142| cencah nipactinemi =oc (oc^cencah nipactinemi). mas valer. . 55m-13| chachalacatinemi (chachalacatinemj). they go along chattering. . b.12 f.7 p.115| chiuhtinemi , mo- (muchiuhtinemj). she goes along becoming; . . b.4 f.9 p.95| cochtinemi , co- (cocochtinemj). he successively goes along sleeping. . b.6 f.20 p.253| cuahtinemi , qui- (qujquatinemj). they go eating it. . b.6 f.8 p.101| cuatlaztinemi , mo- (moquatlaztinemj). he goes about haughty. . b.4 f.1 p.3| elcihciuhtinemi (elciciuhtinemj). he goes about sighing; they go about sighing. . b.4 f.4 p.33| huetztinemi (vetztinemj). it goes falling. . b.11 f.22 p.222| huicatinemi =nite=onitehuicatinen (huicatinemi =nite=onitehuicatinen). andar acompa?ando a otro. . 71m2-27| iyauhtinemi , tla- (tlaiiauhtinemj). they go along making dance motions. . b.2 f.11 p.170| [i]ztlacahuihtinenca , omo- (omoztlacavitinenca). they had practised deceit. . b.4 f.12 p.131| mecatihtinemi , mo- (momecatitinemj). he lives in concubinage. . b.2 f.5 p.102| notztinemi , qui- (quinotztinemj). she proceeds addressing him. . b.6 f.14 p.176| ololohtinemi , c- (cololotinemj). he goes rolling it up; he goes wrapping it; he goes rolling it into a ball; . . b.4 f.1 p.5| tlachixtinemi =nohuiyampa (nohuiampa tlachixtinemi). deshonesta muger y desuergonzada. x +phrase>. 71m1-072| tonalciyauhtinemi (tonalciiauhtinemj). they go along exhausted by the heat. . b.1 f.2 p.41| tzatzauctinemi , qui- (qujtzatzacutinemj). he goes blocking it. . b.4 f.2 p.12| xixipeuhtinemi , qui- (qujxixipeuhtinemj). it goes about peeling it. . b.11 f.2 p.11| yacantinemi , te- (teiacantinemj). he goes leading someone. . b.2 f.3 p.76| yolahcomantinemi =ni (yolahcomantinemi =ni). desasossegado andar y alborotado. . 71m1-071| yoltinemi =ni=oniyoltinen (yoltinemi =ni=oniyoltinen). tener vida. . 71m2-7| aux02*** ehuatiquetz , hualm[o]- (valmevatiquetz). he rose up. . b.12 f.8 p.115| ixnamictimoquetza , con- (conjxnamjctimoquetza). she places herself facing him. . b.2 f.7 p.121| neztimoquetza , tlatla- (tlatlaneztimoquetza). it stands shining. . b.7 f.1 p.15| tentiquetza , con- (contentiquetza). they put it in. . b.3 f.3 p.45| aux03*** ahcitihuetzicoh (acitivetzico). they came hastening to arrive. . b.12 f.1 p.17| altihtihuetzi , con- (conaltitivetzi). they quickly bathe him. . b.4 f.11 p.109| cacalactihuetzi (cacalactivetzi). they each quickly enter. . b.12 f.7 p.108| chachapantihuetzi , on- (onchachapantivetzi). they each plop down, they each fall. . b.2 f.9 p.146| chiuhtihuetzi , xic- (xicchiuhtivetzi). do it quickly. . b.6 f.17 p.214| cuahtihuetzi , qui- (qujquativetzi). they quickly bite it; he bolts it down; he eats it hurriedly. . b.2 f.7 p.129| cuitihuetzi , xocon- (xoconcuitiuetzi). take it quickly. . b.9 f.2 p.13| elhuitectihuetzi , m[o]- (melhujtectiuetzi). he falls striking his chest. . b.10 f.9 p.162| ihciuhcacuahtihuetzi , tiqu- (tiqujciuhcaquativetzi). we gobble it up hurriedly, we eat it quickly. . b.6 f.18 p.226| itihuetziz , con- (conjtiuetziz). he will quickly drink it. . b.10 f.9 p.162| pehpentihuetzi , con- (conpepentiuetzi). they quickly gather it up. . b.5 f.2 p.184| quiztihuetzi =ni (quiztihuetzi =ni). salir arebatadamente; salir arrebatadamente; salir corriendo. . 55m-18| tlalihtihuetzi , nonno- (nonnotlalitivetzi). I quickly seat myself. . b.6 f.18 p.230| tlaztihuetzi , con- (contlaztiuetzi). he quickly throws it. . b.7 f.2 p.26| yahtihuetzi (iativetzi). he rushes, he goes quickly. . b.6 f.18 p.221| aux04*** acatl =chachayacatimani in (chachayacatimani in^acatl). ralas estar las ca?as o cosa assi. . 55m-17| ahhuachquiauhtimani (aoachqujauhtimanj). it keeps drizzling. . b.12 f.4 p.66| ahhuiyaxtimani , tla- (tlaaujiaxtimanj). it keeps perfuming. x aux04>. b.4 f.8 p.78| ayauhtimani (ayauhtimani). hazer niebla o nieblina; niebla hazer. . 55m-11| cactimani (cactimanj). it is desolate; it is quiet; there is quiet; it lies abandoned; silence prevails. . b.11 f.11 p.106| chixtimani , qui- (qujchixtimanj). they keep waiting for it; they keep waiting for him. x>. b.2 f.6 p.114| cuecuepontimani (cuecuepontimanj). it extends blossoming. . b.11 f.21 p.214| huetztimani , on- (onvetztimanj). they keep falling. . b.11 f.8 p.78| ihcuanihtimani , con- (conjquanjtimanj). they continue to remove it. . b.4 f.8 p.78| melauhtimani , tla- (tlamelauhtimanj). it remains straight. . b.11 f.21 p.212| neztimani =tla (tlaneztimani). hazer claro o sereno; hazer claro y sereno tiempo; hazer tiempo claro y resplandeciente; o lugar sin escuridad y claro. . 55m-11| ololiuhtimani (ololiuhtimanj). they crowd together. . b.11 f.26 p.275| popocatimani (popocatimanj). it lies smoking. . b.11 f.25 p.262| popozocatimani ==opopozocatimanca (popozocatimani ==opopozocatimanca). estar heruiendola olla. . 71m2-14| quiztimani , hual- (oalqujztimanj). they keep coming forward; they keep coming forth; it keeps emerging. . b.2 f.7 p.123| teciuhtimani ==oteciuhtimanca (teciuhtimani ==oteciuhtimanca). granizar. o^apedrear. s. caer piedra quando llueue. . 71m2-16| tetzcaliuhtimani , tla- (tlatetzcaliuhtimanj). it is lying cleanly swept. . b.1 f.2 p.46| tlaztimani , con- (contlaztimanj). they keep casting it. . b.2 f.4 p.88| xaxamacatimani ==oxaxamacatimanca (xaxamacatimani ==oxaxamacatimanca). batir las olas, o quebrar en las rocas. . 71m2-27| yacattimani (iacattimanj). they are in the lead. . b.2 f.9 p.147| yohuatimaniz (iooatimanjz). it will lie darkened. . b.6 f.7 p.81| zouhtimani (zouhtimani). abierto estar libro o carta; abierta estar la carta o el libro. . 55m-001| aux05*** cauhtehua =nic=oniccauhtehuac (cauhtehua =nic=oniccauhtehuac). dexar a otro, o a otra cosa, e yrse luego a alguna parte. . 71m2-2| cuahtehuaz =nitla= [[tlaquateuaz =ni=]] (cuahtehuaz =nitla=). comere antes que me parta. . 71m2-23| cualantehua =ni=onicualantehuac (cualantehua =ni=onicualantehuac). leuantarse e yrse muy enojado. . 71m2-14| ihtixotlatehua , qu- (quj>tixotlateoa). it suddenly rips open his belly. . b.11 f.1 p.6| ihzatehua =n (ihzatehua =n). leuantarse de dormir. . 71m1-141| quetztehuac , ocon- (oconquetzteoac). he placed it as he departed. . b.6 f.4 p.48| xiccauhtehua =nite (xiccauhtehua =nite). dexar a otro con desden y enojo. . 71m1- 082| aux06*** ayotzincueptihuitze , m[o]- (maiotzincueptiujtze). they come head over heels. . b.2 f.1 p.48| chocatihuitz (chocatiujtz). he comes weeping. . b.1 f.1 p.24| cuicatihuitze (cujcatiujtze). they come singing. . b.2 f.5 p.98| huenchiuhtihuitz , qui- (qujvenchiuhtivitz). they come bringing her as a gift. . b.6 f.17 p.210| ihtotihtihuitze , m[o]- (mitotitiujtze). they come dancing. . b.2 f.1 p.51| itquitihuitz , qu- (qujtqujtivitz). he comes bearing it; they come carrying her. . b.6 f.14 p.175| mamailpihtihuitze (Mamailpitiuitze). they come with their hands tied. . b.2 f.6 p.106| palehuihtihuitze , quim- (qujnpalevitivitze). they come helping them. . b.12 f.7 p.108| quiztihuitz , ni- (njqujztiujtz). I come emerging. . b.6 f.1 p.1| tlaocoxtihuitz (tlaocuxtiujtz). he comes being sad. x>. b.1 f.1 p.24| totonixtihuitz (totonixtivitz). it comes to become warm. . b.1 f.05 p.81| yacantihuitz , quin- (qujniacantivitz). it comes leading them. . b.12 f.6 p.84| aux07*** aantiquizqueh , c- (caantiqujzque). they quickly seized him. . b.12 f.7 p.114| cauhtiquiza , qui- (qujcauhtiquj?a). they quickly leave him. . b.6 f.18 p.225| cemihtohtiquiza , tocon- (toco^cemitotiqui?a). we quickly come to agreement, we quickly decide. . b.4 f.12 p.131| chitontiquiza =ni (chitontiquiza =ni). salir arebatadamente; yr de^priessa; salir arrebatadamente; saltar y correr yendo de priesa a algun negocio. . 55m-18| cuitiquiza , qui- (quicuitiqui?a). they take it quickly; he quickly takes it. . b.9 f.3 p.37| ihtohtiquiza , qu- (quitotiqui?a). it quickly says it. . b.9 f.5 p.63| itquitiquiza , qu- (quitquitiqui?a). they quickly carry it. . b.7 f.2 p.30| mictihtiquiza , ontla- (ontlamjctitiquj?a). they swiftly kill victims. . b.2 f.9 p.145| pitztiquiza , qui- (quipitztiqui?a). he quickly blows it. . b.9 f.5 p.63| tentiquiza , quihual- (qujoaltentiquj?a). he quickly places it. . b.2 f.2 p.58| tlaztiquiza , qui- (qujtlaztiquj?a). he quickly casts it aside. . b.10 f.11 p.185| tzahtzitiquiza (tzatzitiqui?a). they abruptly shout. . b.9 f.5 p.64| aux08*** cochtimotlalia (cochtimotlalia). he lies down to sleep. . b.4 f.2 p.15| cualantimotlalia =ni (cualantimotlalia =ni). encapotarse de enojo. . 55m-7| poliuhtimotlalia =ni (poliuhtimotlalia =ni). mesurarse; messurarse. . 55m-13| tepeuhtitlalia , mo- (motepeuhtitlalia). it is heaped up. . b.2 f.10 p.161| tolohtimotlalih , hual- (oaltolotimotlali). he sat with his head bowed. . b.12 f.2 p.34| aux09*** tlalohtitlehco , mo- (motlalotitleco). he runs up. . b.3 f.1 p.3| aux10*** mictimotecac =tlalli (tlalli mictimotecac). noche quando se acuestan todos. . 55m- 14| zotlahuatimoteca (?otlaoatimoteca). it stretches out stupefied; it stretches out enfeebled. . b.11 f.8 p.76| aux11a*** actica , t- (tactica). you are entering. . b.6 f.6 p.67| ahcitica , on- (onacitica). they are arriving. . b.4 f.6 p.57| ahmo huehcauhtica =niman (niman ahmo^huehcauhtica). de alli a^pocos dias. . 71m2- 12| ahpantica , tim[o]- (timapantica). you are adorned. . b.6 f.12 p.142| apizmictica =n (apizmictica =n). estar muerto de hambre. . 71m1-111| axixpalanticatca , o- (oaxixpalanticatca). she was soiled with excretions. . b.6 f.17 p.213| cacalactica (cacalactica). it is sunken in, it is dimpled. . b.9 f.7 p.94| caltzauctica (caltzacutica). he is enclosed. . b.12 f.3 p.50| cenyacantica , qui- (qujceniacantica). it is leading it. . b.11 f.23 p.234| chalanihticatca , mo- (mochalanjticatca). they were quarreling. . b.12 f.2 p.29| chixtica , qui- (quichistica). she is waiting for it. x>. b.9 f.4 p.46| chocatica , non- (nonchocatica). I am weeping. . b.6 f.9 p.108| cuahticateh , tla- (tlaquaticate). they are eating. . b.6 f.18 p.230| ehuatica =n (ehuatica =n). estar sentado. . 55m-9| huehcauhtica (huehcauhtica). despues de largo tiempo. . 71m2-26| ihiyotihtica , m[o]- (mjhiotitica). it is breathing. . b.11 f.21 p.221| ixhuatica (ixoatica). it is sprouting. . b.11 f.16 p.162| nacazitztica , mitzhual- (mjtzoalnacazitztica). they are looking at you out of the corner of the eye. tzw>. b.6 f.19 p.244| neneliuhtica =ahtleh (ahtleh neneliuhtica). pura cosa. . 55m-16| neztica (neztica). it is appearing, it is evident; it is apparent. . b.6 f.1 p.1| pactica (pactica). he is happy, he is content; it is happy. . b.6 f.10 p.122| peuhtica , om- (ompeuhtica). they are beginning. . b.9 f.6 p.73| pilohtica , tla- (tlapilotica). he is hanging something. . b.3 f.2 p.19| pitztiyaz , tla- (tlapitztiaz). he will go playing a flute. . b.2 f.2 p.68| tecatica , con- (contecatica). they are setting it. . b.2 f.10 p.161| tlantica (tla^tica). it is ending. . b.2 f.7 p.126| tzonquiztica (tzonqujztica). it is concluding. . b.4 f.8 p.75| xeliuhtica (xeliuhtica). dividing; it is dividing; it is splitting; splitting; distributing. . b.11 f.18 p.184| xoxomolactica (xoxomolactica). it is sunken in. . b.9 f.7 p.94| TO BE CONTINUED TO BE CONTINUED TO BE CONTINUED _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Jun 15 19:00:36 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 21:00:36 +0200 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <0940BAB2-C9A1-40F0-8589-25EFF64286A2@me.com> Message-ID: Estimados listeros Me da alguna verg?enza introducirme en una discusi?n bastante apasionada, que descubro fuera de casa y lejos de mis diccionarios. Lo hago porque mi nombre fue mencionado como posible perito en el caso de unificaci?n de la lengua n?huatl, lo que me honra mucho, mientras otro listero rechazaba una intervenci?n de no-nahuatlatos en tal proceso. Ahora bien, no puedo jactarme de conocer la lengua m?s all? de la variante llamada cl?sica (cuya gram?tica he estudiado mucho), y un poco del n?huatl moderno de Milpa Alta / Tlacotenco (que efectivamente es poco alejado del cl?sico, pero que nunca consegu? hablar con presteza). Lo interesante en el debate es que contiene todos los argumentos que surgen en otros tiempos y otros lugares frente a los mismos problemas, que son dos: la b?squeda y creaci?n de una forma com?n y normalizada para una lengua que existe en forma de variantes dialectales; y la revitalizaci?n de una lengua (o variante de lengua) que ya no es materna de nadie. Existe entonces un marco general para el debate, al que es ?til referirse. El primer problema se conoce en ling??stica y socioling??stica como koin?, una palabra griega que significa ?com?n?: la primera koin? conocida fue el griego de la antig?edad tard?a, cuando el mundo griego estaba dividido entre muchas entidades pol?ticas con sendas variantes dialectales. La koin? se elabor? poco a poco en los intercambios, y tuvo bastante ?xito hasta ser transmitida a ni?os, volvi?ndose lengua materna (y fuente del futuro griego moderno). En los procesos de valorizaci?n de las lenguas minorizadas, la idea de una koin? es atractiva, porque unificar y normalizar la lengua facilita los intercambios y ayuda a su difusi?n escrita y a su ense?anza, llegando as? a un estatuto m?s equilibrado con la lengua oficial. Pero hay dos riesgos: obligar los hablantes a conformarse con una forma m?s o menos alejada de su propio uso; y si la koin? es muy cercana (o hasta id?ntica) a uno de los dialectos, dar una ventaja a los hablantes de este dialecto, en detrimento de los otros (la misma ventaja la tienen los hablantes de una vehicular). Estos dos temas aparecieron claramente estos ?ltimos d?as en la presente lista, pero tambi?n pude observarlos en Europa (bret?n, vasco, occitano, serbo-croata, reto-rom?nico etc.), y en otras partes (criollos franceses de Am?rica, etc.). En el caso del n?huatl, la idea de usar del cl?sico como koin? tambi?n es atractiva, por el prestigio hist?rico, la existencia de una tradici?n escrita, y una distancia (?linguistic gap?) no enorme con cualquier dialecto moderno, aunque se deba tomar en cuenta la ventaja otorgada a los hablantes de ciertos dialectos como Milpa Alta, que son formas evolucionadas del cl?sico (o de una variante del cl?sico, tomando en cuenta la objeci?n de John Sullivan), contrariamente a otras variantes, (Veracruz, Guerrero, la Huasteca etc.) que vienen de formas que carecen de documentos escritos en la ?poca post-conquista. Entonces, la situaci?n podr?a ser parecida a otro caso exitoso de koin?: el ?rabe moderno, lengua escrita y vehicular entre los diversos pa?ses ?rabes, basada en el ?rabe cor?nico, con algunas adaptaciones, como el aporte de palabras refiriendo a cosas o nociones modernas. Se habla el dialecto de cada pa?s o regi?n, pero la lengua oficial, usada en los intercambios y los documentos escritos; es la koin? ?rabe moderna. Sin embargo, el ?xito del ?rabe moderno es basado en dos datos que no existen en el caso del n?huatl: el poder pol?tico de los estados, con su diplomacia, sus medios de comunicaci?n y de ense?anza, etc.; y el hecho de que el Cor?n es tan presente en la vida cotidiana de los ?rabes que su forma ling??stica es bien conocida y respectada, lo que obviamente no existe entre los hablantes del n?huatl con el C?dice Florentino u otros libros cl?sicos. Por eso, la elaboraci?n de una koin? n?huatl me parece poco posible en el estado dialectal de la lengua y las condiciones sociales y pol?ticas de hoy, que por supuesto pueden evolucionar. Una de las evoluciones notables es que el conocimiento rec?proco de las variantes va creciendo con los encuentros e intercambios entre hablantes, lo que tiene el mismo efecto comunicativo que si existiera una koin?, y por lo tanto esta koin? tampoco es muy necesaria. Y nunca tratar? de convencer a los nahuatlatos para cumplir con el requisito de aprender y de usar de un n?huatl diferente del que hablan. Eso ser?a pura arrogancia. Adem?s, la idea de una misa en koin? n?huatl me parece contradictoria con la pr?ctica general de la Iglesia, que es hablar de la manera m?s inteligible para los fieles. En el a?o 813, en el s?nodo de Tours, los obispos recomendaban a los sacerdotes que pronuncien sus pr?dicas y homil?as en ?lengua vulgar? (= tal como se hablaba), y no en lat?n: en aquella ?poca, la distancia entre lat?n y la ?lengua vulgar? rom?nica deb?a ser m?s o menos como la que existe hoy entre el n?huatl cl?sico y una buena parte de los dialectos modernos. Por otra parte, nadie me detendr? de seguir interesado en el n?huatl, que es una magn?fica creaci?n cultural e intelectual ? como cualquier lengua si quieren, pero de manera se?alada ? y que pertenece al patrimonio mundial, como otras grandes obras del ingenio humano. Uno de mis mayores placeres es dar a conocer esta lengua. Y mi apego incluye el respecto a los que la hablan, y que siguen transmiti?ndola, como guardianes (m?s bien que como poseedores), en el inter?s de toda la humanidad. Perd?n por haber sido largo. Atentamente Michel Launey _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From chelodona at hotmail.com Sun Jun 15 17:38:20 2014 From: chelodona at hotmail.com (chelo dona) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 14:38:20 -0300 Subject: Standardization of Nahuatl=?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=8F?= Message-ID: "A donde fuistes?" "Que comistes?" a- el "fuistes" deriva del "fuisteis", tercera persona, perfectamente dicho en un espa?ol arcaico pero aceptable. En sudam?rica (en Uruguay, Argentina, parte de Colombia, de Bolivia) se usa a?n el "vos" como pronombre, que es una segunda persona "distanciada", y conjuga con el "fuisteis", en lugar del "t?" que conjuga con el "fuiste". b- La calor" est? aceptado en el espa?ol "oficial", porque la Academia tiende a aceptar lo que se impone masivamente. Las lenguas son mezclas y separaciones, es mejor mirarlas y estudiarlas como est?n que intentar "construirlas". Si nos pusi?ramos a priorizar tanto la l?gica, podr?amos hablar en esperanto, o intentar organizar los verbos en el ingl?s, por empezar al menos el "ser-estar", de modo que sus distintas conjugaciones no deriven de tres or?genes completamente diferentes... I am, you are, it is... y las redundancias, con ausencia de informaci?n, despu?s... etc... imposible. c- el signo de interrogaci?n se usa en espa?ol al principio y al fin de la oraci?n, a diferencia del ingl?s. Con todo, eso est? cambiando; lo acad?mico sigue a lo que hace la masa, la palabra al hecho, la ciencia a la t?cnica, eso es una verdad que est? expresada en Confucio, mi conservador preferido, en Marx, en Lincoln, en Einstein y donde quiera que haya inteligencia. Es mi punto de vista. Saludos!!! Marcelo Donadello _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 20:53:22 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 16:53:22 -0400 Subject: Standardization Message-ID: Colleagues, In the last few months I have been working on a book which focuses on the month of Panquetzaliztli. As part of this I have been looking at how the month was celebrated in places other than Tenochtitlan and at times other than the eve of the conquest. In this research it has become clear to me, and something repeated in our recent discussions, that at the time of the arrival of the Spanish, there were many Nahuatls. There were significant differences between the Valley of Mexico and Tlaxcala, just to name one. In addition as Michael Swanton and Una Canger have discovered, immediately after the conquest, and probably dating from before, there were many varieties of Nahuatl as a second language, spoken by native speakers of other languages who needed to operate in Nahuatl as well, both because of Mexica and Spanish imperialism. So, then as how, there were many Nahuatls. Molina, Carochi, Sahagun, and the rest merely distilled several variants into a stable form which we now call Classical Nahuatl but which was a hybrid from its very inception. -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 518-608-4522 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cienhuac at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 01:53:47 2014 From: cienhuac at gmail.com (Velez Ramirez) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 20:53:47 -0500 Subject: ?Orgullosa de s=?utf-8?Q?=C3=AD_?=misma? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Muchas y sinceras gracias por la aclaraciones acerca del poema; recientemente llegu? a vivir el centro del DF y tengo una amplia vista hacia los lados de la ciudad, recordar tal poema en la versi?n castellana me llevo a un momento surreal al observar la megalopolis. Deber?a hacerse una actualizaci?n de esos versos. Siempre encuentro enriquecedor estudiar y exponer dudas aqu? en el grupo, la profundizaci?n de los temas fluye entre tantos interesados. Miec tlazohcamati nannochih Velasco Valerio El 7 de junio de 2014, 21:29, Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera < jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> escribi?: > Hola, es claro que ?orgullosa de s? misma? es una traducci?n no muy > correcta. Pero no s?lo esa, todo el poema est? parcialmente mal > traducido. La versi?n que circula por internet no es la m?s correcta, > bas?ndonos en la versi?n nahuatl. > > Por ejemplo, 'Ipalnemohuani' lo traducen como 'dador de la vida', la > traducci?n correcta es 'Aquel por quien se vive'. Tambi?n, el poema no > dice 'desde donde se posan las ?guilas...', dice: 'En el petate > (estera) del ?guila'. Mi propuesta de traducci?n es la siguiente: > > Ya reverdece, ya brota y florece su llanto > yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en Acolhuahcan > donde est? el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli > en la tierra seca, Tezozomoctli, > su riqueza y su palabra tambi?n all? viven > > En el petate (estera) del ?guia > En el petate del jaguar > se invoca/ hay invocaci?n al Sol > > Desciende como escudo ?l > Auel por quien se vive > descendi? de noche en M?xico > la tiza, las plumas > vienen a esparcirse sobre la tierra > llegan aqu? > > Su mandato (o regla), su riqueza > ustedes, grandes se?ores > Cuauhtlecoatl, Cahualtzin > los han pedido prestados > La de Aquel por quien se vive > descendi? como escudo aqu? en M?xico > > Famosa permanece el agua, el cerro (la ciudad) de Tenochtitlan > por eso gana honor > Nadie teme la muerte recta > ustedes nobles > como se los mand? > el Dios verdadero > a ustedes sus hijos, sus nobles > > En verdad, que de manera correcta obtengan > el petate (estera) del escudo, el sitial de los dardos > de ?l, de Dios > > Consid?renlo, recu?rdenlo, > ustedes los nobles > ?Quien guerrear? al agua, al cerro (a la ciudad) de Tenochtitlan? > ?Qui?n destruir? los cimientos del cielo? > > Que a?n perdure > La ciudad de Tenochtitlan, > que en paz nos guarde > Aquel por quien se vive > me aflijo > que ?l lo diga aqu? > ?C?mo han de permanecer las cosas? > > No es m?s que mi humilde propuesta de traducci?n, puede hacer > discrepancias, pero por lo que he estudiado de nahuatl, as? quedar?a > en castellano. Saludos a todos los listeros. > > M? totahtzin anmechmopieli nihcaticahuan > -Achcauhtli- > > El 7/6/14, Campbell, R. Joe escribi?: > > Dear Michel and oc cequintin listeros, > > > > I am glad that Michel put us back on the proper road to > > understanding "tenyotimani" and put the "orgullosa de si misma" notion > > to rest. > > > > Since "tentli" is a very frequent element in discussing 'fame' and > > 'reputation', I thought it might of interest to dig out some examples of > > "tentli" embedded in the verb "yoa". So I consulted Molina (his three > > dictionaries) and Sahagun (the Florentine Codex) and compiled the > following > > list. It is repetitious, but when do you hit a nail just once? > > > > 55m Molina, 1555 > > 71m2 Molina, 1571 Nahuatl-Spanish > > 71m1 Molina, 1571 Spanish-Nahuatl > > (m1 and m2 are bound together, but each one with its own title page) > > The number that appears hyphenated with m1 and m2 is my computer file > > number and, unfortunately, the program doesn't return the folio > number. > > > > FC Florentine Codex > > Since an item in this list may correspond to a single occurrence or > > many occurrences in various books of the Florentine, it is not > > practical to give page numbers here. > > > > The main (first) entry is a regularized spelling, including glottal > stop > > written as "h", but without vowel length. The repeated version of a word > > or phrase is parentheses is Molina's or Sahagun's original spelling. > > Phrases (e.g., cualli notenyo =ahmo) use the '=' symbol to indicate > > inversion. > > Therefore: ahmo cualli notenyo. > > An element following '==' is Molina's preterit of the verb involved. > > > > If anything is not clear, I'll be glad to try to clarify. > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > * te:ntli yoa: *** > > cualli notenyo =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo). fama mala tener. 55m-9. > > cualli notenyo nihtoloca =ahmo (ahmo cualli no tenyo nihtoloca). fama > > mala tener. 71m1-112. > > hualmotenyotia (oalmoteniotia). he gains fame. FC. > > hualmotenyotiaya (oalmoteniotiaia). he gained fame. FC. > > hueya notenyo =oc cencah=oc cencah ohueix notenyo. huel. oc cencah > > ohueyac notenyo (oc cencah hueya no tenyo ==oc cencah ohueix > > notenyo. huel. oc cencah ohueyac notenyo). crecer mucho mas mi fama. > > 71m2-13. > > intenyo (inte^io). their fame. FC. > > intenyo (jnteio). their glory. FC. > > intenyo (intenio). their renown. FC. > > itenyo (itenio). her fame. FC. > > itenyo (jteio). his fame. FC. > > motenyo (mote>io). your fame, your renown. FC. > > motenyo (moteio). your honor. FC. > > motenyotia (moteniotia). he is famed. FC. > > motenyotia (moteniotia). they achieve fame, they achieve glory. FC. > > notenyo (notenio). my glory. FC. > > ommotenyotico (onmoteiotico). he came to have fame. FC. > > ommotenyotih (Onmoteioti). he brought fame on himself. FC. > > ommotenyotihqueh (onmoteniotique). they became famous. FC. > > ontenyohua (onteiooa). he is given fame. FC. > > ontlatenyotia (ontlateniotia). he gives honor. FC. > > oquimontenyotico (oqujmonteiotico). he came to glorify them. FC. > > oquitenyoticoh (oqujteiotico). they came to give him fame. FC. > > pan actimoteca in itenyotzin dios =nohuiyan te=nohuiyan otepan > > actimotecac in itenyotzin dios (nohuian tepan actimoteca in > > iteyotzin dios ==nohuian otepan actimotecac initeyotzin dios). > > estenderse, o bolar por todas partes la fama de nuestro se?or dios. > > 71m2-13. > > quintenyotia (qujnteiotia). he provides glory to them. FC. > > quitenyotia (quiteniotia). he prices it. FC. > > tenyo =no (noteyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. > > tenyo =no (notenyo). mi fama. 71m2-13. > > tenyocan (teiocan). place of glory. > > FC. > > tenyocan (teniocan). place of glory. > > FC. > > tenyoh (tenyo). claro en fama. 55m-3. > > tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 71m1-101. > > tenyoh (tenyo). encumbrado assi. 55m-7. > > tenyoh (tenyo). esclarecido. 71m1-102. > > tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 71m1-121. > > tenyoh (tenyo). glorioso. 55m-10. > > tenyoh (teio). having fame. FC. > > tenyoh (teio). having good repute. FC. > > tenyoh (tenyo). persona afamada, o encumbrada en honrra. 71m2-17. > > tenyoh (teyo). se?alado en bien. 71m1- > > 192. > > tenyoh (teyo). se?alado en bien. 55m- > > 18. > > tenyohua =ni= (teyoa =ni=). cobrar buena fama y renombre. 71m2-16. > > tenyohua =ni (tenyoa =ni). afamarse. > > 71m1-012. > > tenyohua =ni (tenyohua =ni). esclarecerse o afamarse. 71m1-102. > > tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih (tenyotia =nino=oninotenyotih). afamarse. > > 71m2-17. > > tenyotia =nino (tenyotia =nino). afamarse. 71m1-012. > > tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih (tenyotia =nite=onitetenyotih). afamar y > > dar honra a otro. 71m2-17. > > tenyotia =nite=oniteteyotih (teyotia =nite=oniteteyotih). afamar a > > otro. 71m2-16. > > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). afamar a otro. 71m1-012. > > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 71m1-101. > > tenyotia =nite (tenyoptia =nite). engrandecer a otro. 55m-8. > > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). escarecer o afamar a otro. 55m-8. > > tenyotia =nite (tenyotia =nite). milagroso hazer algo. 55m-14. > > tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih (tenyotia =nitla=onitlatenyotih). poner > > precio alo que se ade vender. 71m2-17. > > tenyotia =nitla (teyotia =nitla). apreciar poner o declarar el precio > > dela cosa. 55m-1. > > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). apreciar, poner o declarar el precio > > delo que vale lo que se vende. 71m1-022. > > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar tassar o apreciar. 55m-9. > > tenyotia =nitla (tenyotia =nitla). estimar, tassar o apreciar. > 71m1-111. > > tenyotiani =mo (mo-teyotiani). el que se afama, o adquire nombre de > > honra, o de infamia. 71m2-10. > > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 71m1-112. > > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). famoso en mala parte. 55m-9. > > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa,famosa o esclarecida. > > 71m1-132. > > tenyotiani =mo (mo-tenyotiani). yllustre cosa famosa o esclarecida. > > 55m-11. > > tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador tal. 55m-1. > > tenyotiani =tla (tlateyotiani). apreciador o tassador delo que se > > vende. 71m2-23. > > tenyotiani =tla (tlatenyotiani). tassador o apreciador deloque se > > vende. 71m2-23. > > tenyotica (tenyotica). afamadamente, con fama y honrra. 71m2-17. > > tenyotica (tenyotica). famosamente assi. 71m1-112. > > tenyotica (tenyotica). gloriosamente. 71m1-121. > > tenyotica (tenyotica). loablemente. 71m1-141. > > tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 71m1-082. > > tenyotihtiuh =nino (tenyotihtiuh =nino). dexar memoria de si. 55m-6. > > tenyotiliztli =te (teteyotiliztli). el acto de dar honra o renombre > > aotro. 71m2-18. > > tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). engrandecimiento. 71m1-101. > > tenyotiliztli =te (tetenyotiliztli). glorificacion tal. 71m1-121. > > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). esclarecimiento. 71m1-102. > > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). estima precio. 71m1-111. > > tenyotiliztli =tla (tlatenyotiliztli). loa, alabanza, o honra que se da > > a alguno. 71m2-23. > > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). alabado, honrado y afamado, ocosa > > tassada y apreciada. 71m2-23. > > tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). apreciada cosa assi. 55m-1. > > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). engrandecido. 71m1-101. > > tenyotilli =tla (tlatenyotilli). esclarecido. 55m-8. > > tenyotilli =tla (tlateyotilli). onrrado assi. 55m-15. > > tenyotl =huei (huei tenyotl). fama con mucha honra. 71m1-112. > > tenyotl (teyotl). fama, o honra. 71m2-16. > > tenyotl (teniotl). fame. FC. > > tenyotl (tenyotl). nombre por fama. 71m1-161. > > tenyotl (tenyotl). onrra. 55m-15. > > tetenyotia (teteiotia). she brings fame to others. FC. > > tiquimontenyotiz (tiqujmonteiotiz). you will render glory to them. FC. > > tiquintenyoticoh (tiquinteiotico). we came to give fame to them. FC. > > tiquintenyotiz (tiqujnteiotiz). you will give them glory. FC. > > * tlatenyoh (tlatenio). having a border. FC. [irrelevant to this list] > > tlatenyotia (tlateiotia). he provides fame. FC. > > tlatenyotihtica (tlateniotitica). he is bringing fame. FC. > > tlatenyotihtiuh (tlateniotitiuh). he goes extolling. FC. > > tontenyohuazqueh (tontenioazque). we will gain fame. FC. > > totenyo (toteio). our glory. FC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quoting M Launey : > > > >> > >> Muchas gracias por haber encontrado y subido el poema, que yo hab?a > >> buscado en vano. > >> > >> Bueno, el espa?ol no es mi lengua materna (ni tampoco el n?huatl), > >> pero me parece que ?orgullosa de s? misma? no traduce tenyotimani > >> (/te:n-yo?-ti-mani/), que ser?a m?s bien algo como ?es famosa?, ?es > >> reputada?, ?es de gran renombre? - y hasta m?s precisamente ?yace > >> famosa?, ?se extiende gloriosa? etc., con el auxiliar (-ti-)mani que > >> marca la ocupaci?n de una superficie. > >> > >> No es la ?nica discordancia entre el texto y ?sta traducci?n. Por > >> eso, si es que se prepara una nueva traducci?n, ser? interesante > >> verla. > >> > >> Saludos > >> > >> Michel Launey > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> Message du 06/06/14 21:11 > >>> De : "Juan Adri?n P?rez Rivera" > >>> A : "nahuatl" > >>> Copie ? : > >>> Objet : [Nahuat-l] ?Orgullosa de s? misma? > >>> > >>> Hola, acerca del poema, lo busqu? en Cantares Mexicanos. Como lo > >>> escribieron, est? incompleto, en el libro vienen 3 partes (al > >>> inicio, en medio y al final) que quiero poner antes de pasar a la > >>> versi?n nahuatl: 1er p?rrafo del poema Ya reverdece, ya brota y > >>> florece su llanto yo hablaba, Acolmiztli, Techontlalatzin en > >>> Acolhuacan; donde est? el tunal (Tenochtitlan), Acamapichtli; en > >>> tierra seca, Tezozomoctli su riqueza, su palabra tambi?n viven > >>> *p?rrafo en medio (despu?s de 'este es tu mandato oh dador de la > >>> vida') a ustedes sus hijos Bien, ?Qui?n en verdad obtendr? con su > >>> trabajo la estera del escudo, el sitial de los dardos de Dios? Al > >>> final del ?ltimo p?rrafo: Que en paz nos guarde el Dador de la vida > >>> me aflijo que ?l lo diga aqu? ?C?mo han de permanecer las cosas? > >>> Aparte de todo, en el p?rrafo final del poema en nahuatl, en ning?n > >>> lado dice 'con nuestras flechas, con nuestros escudos'; si bien es > >>> un difrasismo y queda en el poema, no aparece en la versi?n > >>> original. Y bueno el poema completo en nahuatl es este (lo copio > >>> fielmente de Cantares Mexicanos, como pueden notar necesita > >>> paleograf?a, ya estoy en eso): Ye itzmolintimani, > >>> xotlancuepontimanian zan ca inchoquiz y nitla'toaya y in Acolmiztli, > >>> ya i Techontlalantzin i in Acolihuacan y in Tenochtli manca, in > >>> Acamapich in Tlalhuacpa y in Tezozomoctli yehua yncococauh intlatol > >>> no zan onnemi a ohuaya Yn quauhpetlapan ocelopetlapa ontlatlauhtilo > >>> ya in Tonatiuh (en el texto dice 'Santa Mar?a' pero obviamente eso > >>> es un invento gachup?n... por eso pongo Tonatiuh) Zan chimaltemo > >>> yehuan Ypalnemohuani oyohualtemoc Mexico ya tizatl yhuitl > >>> moyahuatihuitz tlalpan ahci ye nican ohuaya Ammonahuatil > >>> anmonecuiltonol anteteuctin in Quauhtlecohuatl in Cahualtzin y > >>> oancontlaneuhque ymahuizo yn Ipalnemoa chimaltemoc nican a in Mexico > >>> ya ohuaya ohuaya Zan ye tenyotimani atl on yan tepetl a in > >>> Tenochtitlan y ye ica mahuizohua ayac quimacaci yectlin miquiztli > >>> antepilhuan huiya iuh amechnahuati ycelteotl y yehuan > >>> 'Ipalnemohuani' (esto lo puse porque en el poema dice literal Dios) > >>> *yn amipilhuan a ohuaya Y yectlin ma yhui ac nel quiciehuiz y > >>> chimalypetlatl y ya ytlacochicpal y yehuan Ipalnemohuani ohuaya (de > >>> nuevo puse Ipalnemohuani, porque dec?a Dios) Ye xicyocoyacan > >>> xiquelnamiquican antepilhuan huia ?ac quimoyahuaz atl o yan tepetla > >>> in Tenochtitlan i? ?Aquin quitopehuaz yn itlaxillo yn ilhuicatl a > >>> ohuaya? yn maoc huel omani ya atl o yan tepetl a in Tenochtitlan y > >>> maoc zan ihuiyan techmotlatilin Ipalnemohuani ohua yya yye ohuaye > >>> ninentlamati a maquintoh nica in queni tlamamaniz a ohuaya? Tambi?n > >>> es importante se?alar que la traducci?n al castellano que dan en el > >>> libro de Cantares Mexicanos difiere en algunas cosas respecto al > >>> poema que escribieron. Si gustan puedo subir la versi?n en > >>> castellano que plantean los estudiosos acerca de esta poes?a. > >>> Bibliograf?a: Le?n Portilla, Miguel. ?Cantares Mexicanos? 1ed, > >>> editorial UNAM. vol. II,Tomo 1. P240-245 Ma totahtzin anmechmopieli. > >>> Achcauhtli _______________________________________________ Nahuatl > >>> mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jun 17 03:30:50 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 23:30:50 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Compound Verbs II Message-ID: Nocnihuan, Here is the continuation of the compound verb list as recently threatened. By way of apology for its length, I should point out that I skipped most of the available candidates in the selection process. Joe *aux11b *** ihcicatie , xon- (xonjcicatie). be panting. . b.6 f.5 p.51| ihcuiliuhtiez , t- (ticujliuhtiez). you will be inscribed. . b.6 f.14 p.172| ixayopapachohtiez , qu- (qujxayopapachotiez). he will be stopping his [someone else's] tears. . b.6 f.7 p.84| nenehciuhtie , xon- (xonneneciuhtie). be panting. . b.6 f.5 p.51| olinihtiez , m[o]- (molinitiez). it will move, it will be moving. . b.9 f.6 p.74| pactiez (pactiez). he will be happy. . b.5 f.3 p.194| popouhtiez , tic- (ticpopouhtiez). you will be over-esteeming it. . b.6 f.8 p.97| tlalihtiez , contla- (contlatlalitiez). he will be placing it, he will place it. . b.6 f.2 p.24| yaochiuhtihui , quin- (qujniaochiuhtiuj). they go fighting them. . b.2 f.1 p.50| aux12*** actihcac (actihcac). estar hincado. . 71m1-111| ahcitihcac (aciticac). it extends; it is reaching. . b.3 f.3 p.37| ahhuiyaxtihcac (a>viiaxticac). it stands producing perfume. x aux12 +insert.y>. b.11 f.20 p.202| cacayacatihcac , tla- (tlacacaiacaticac). it is broken up in small pieces. . b.11 f.26 p.276| cactihcac (cactihcac). casa desamparada que no se habita; casa que no se mora; desembarazado; desierta casa o pueblo; desocupado lugar; como sala o camara; desocupado lugar o camara; lugar desocupado como sala o camara; vazia cosa. . 71m2- 2| calactihcac (calacticac). it enters. . b.12 f.3 p.35| cehuallohtihcac (cehuallohtihcac). sombra hazer o tener el arbol o cosa assi; sombra tener o hazer el arbol. ll +ev.verb.12>. 55m-20| cehuallohtihcac (cevalloticac). it stands casting a shadow. ll +ev.verb.12>. b.11 f.11 p.107| chachapacatihcac (chachapacaticac). it stands drooping. k>. b.11 f.11 p.111| chichichilehuatihcac (chichichileoaticac). it stands reddened. . b.6 f.3 p.30| chichipahuatihcac (chichipaoaticac). it stands clean, it stands clear. . b.12 f.3 p.38| chiuhtihcac , mo- (mochiuhticac). ; it stands becoming; it stands growing. . b.9 f.7 p.84| chixtihcac , qui- (qujchixticac). he stands awaiting him. x>. b.2 f.6 p.115| cocoliuhtihcac (cocoliuhticac). having many curves; it goes winding. . b.11 f.26 p.267| coyontihcac (coionticac). ; it is perforated; it stands hollowed; there is a hole. . b.3 f.3 p.37| cualtitihcac , ah- (a>qualtiticac). it is bad, it stands bad. . b.11 f.26 p.267| cualtitihcac (qualtiticac). it is good, it stands good. . b.11 f.26 p.267| cuecuecuetziuhtihcac (cuecuecuetziuhticac). having zigzags, having meanders. . b.11 f.26 p.267| cuecuepocatihcac (cuecuepocaticac). it stands blooming; it stands constantly blossoming; blooming. . b.11 f.20 p.202| cuecuetlacatihcac (cuecuetlacaticac). it stands rumbling. . b.11 f.26 p.274| cuepontihcac (cuepontihcac). blanquear de lexos el edificio. . 55m-2| cuicatihcac (cujcaticac). it stands singing. . b.6 f.19 p.240| cuitlahuitihcac , quimo- (quimocuitlauiticac). he stands taking care of it. . b.9 f.1 p.11| huallahtihcac (oallaticac). it comes, it is coming. ll>. b.11 f.4 p.33| huihuixcatihcac (vivixcaticac). it stands trembling. . b.11 f.26 p.274| huilohuatihcac (viloaticac). there is going upright. . b.6 f.15 p.190| [i]czatihcac , tla- (tlac?aticac). it stands; it stands resting; it stands standing. . b.10 f.10 p.165| ihcoyocatihcac (icoiocaticac). it is sputtering. . b.11 f.11 p.108| ihtotihtihcac , m[o]- (mihtotiticac). he stands dancing. . b.2 f.1 p.52| ihyaxtihcac (hiiaxticac). it stands spreading aroma. x aux12>. b.11 f.20 p.207| itihcac , qu- (qujticac). he stands drinking it. . b.2 f.13 p.207| ixicatihcac (ixicaticac). it is dripping. . b.11 f.11 p.108| iztaztihcac (iztaztihcac). blanquear de lexos el edificio; blanquear algo de lexos. x +x>z>. 55m- 2| iztaztihcac (iztazticac). she stands white, she is white. x +x>z>. b.1 f.1 p.11| mamaxexeliuhtihcac (mamaxexeliuhticac). it stands with its branches spreading. . b.11 f.21 p.214| mamazouhtihcac =cruztitech (cruztitech^mamazouhtihcac). crucifixo. <++cruz-ti1-tech1 dupl-ma:itl-zo:hua-prt1-ti1-ihca-prt2 aux12 +spanish +phrase>. 55m-4| maxexeliuhtihcac (maxexeliuhticac). it stands spreading its branches. . b.11 f.20 p.202| melahuatihcac (melavaticac). it is straight, it stands straight. . b.12 f.6 p.84| memextihcac (memexticac). it is flowing in various places. x>. b.11 f.26 p.272| nehnexehuatihcac (ne>nexeoaticac). it stands ash-colored. . b.6 f.1 p.10| neztihcac , tlahtla- (tla>tlanezticac). it stands resplendent. . b.11 f.26 p.271| ohtli =ihchictihcac (ihchictihcac ohtli). camino llano; camino llano y limpio; camino o suelo muy llano; barrido y limpio. . 55m-2| ohtli =ohuihtihcac (ohuihtihcac ohtli). camino aspero. . 55m-2| panhuetztihcac (panvetzticac). it stands high, it stands above; it is standing high. . b.11 f.11 p.107| petlauhtihcac (petlauhticac). he stands naked. . b.6 f.4 p.45| pilcatihcac =ni (pilcatihcac =ni). colgado estar de alto. . 55m-3| pipixauhtihcac (pipixauhticac). it is raining. . b.11 f.20 p.202| popozocatihcac ==opopozocatihcaca (popozocatihcac ==opopozocatihcaca). estar heruiendola olla. . 71m2-14| quiquiztihcac (qujqujzticac). it is passing through in various places; it stands protruding. . b.11 f.26 p.272| quixohuatihcac , hual- (oalquixoaticac). there was going and coming. x +del.w>. b.9 f.5 p.60| tecuanyohtihcac (tequanioticac). it is full of wild beasts. . b.11 f.26 p.267| temotihcac (temoticac). he stands descending; it stands sloping downward. . b.11 f.25 p.266| tentihcac (tenticac). it is filled; it stands full. . b.11 f.12 p.119| tepitzauhtihcac , tla- (tlatepitzauhticac). it stands hardening. . b.11 f.25 p.266| tlacamecayotl =tlehcotihcac (tlehcotihcac tlacamecayotl). abolorio delos ascendientes; abolorio; o parentesco de los ascendientes. . 71m1-011| tlachixtihcac , on- (ontlachixticac). he stands watching. x>. b.2 f.1 p.52| tlehcotihcac (tle>coticac). he stands ascending; it is ascending. . b.11 f.25 p.266| tocatihcac , qui- (qujtocaticac). it accompanies it, it follows it; ; they protrude along it; they stand following along it. . b.10 f.8 p.130a| totontihcac , mo- (mototonticac). he stands divested (i.e., of an article of clothing). . b.2 f.2 p.58| tzapintihcac =ni=onitzapintihcaca huel. onitzapintihcaya (tzapintihcac =ni=onitzapintihcaca huel. onitzapintihcaya). estar enhiesto leuantado o en pie. . 71m2- 26| tzauctihcac =te (tetzauctihcac). el postrero de los que estan en pie por orden. . 71m2-19| tzetzeliuhtihcac (tzetzeliuhticac). it is sprinkling. . b.11 f.20 p.202| xaxamacatihcac (xaxamacaticac). it is rapid-flowing. . b.11 f.24 p.249| xoxohuixtihcac (xoxovixticac). it stands verdant. x>. b.11 f.11 p.112| yacatihtihcac =tla (tlayacatihtihcac). el primero de los que estan en orden en pie. . 55m-7| yacattihcac (yacattihcac). el primero de los que estan en orden en pie. . 55m-7| yahualohtihcac =nite=oniteyahualohtihcaca (yahualohtihcac =nite=oniteyahualohtihcaca). estar al derredor de otro en pie. . 71m2-6| yohuatihcac , tlatla- (tlatlaioaticac). it is dark; it stands dark. . b.11 f.25 p.262| zotihcac , qui- (quj?oticac). it stands piercing it. . b.8 f.1 p.17| *aux13*** *aux13 *** aalacatoc (aalacatoc). it lies slippery. k>. b.12 f.4 p.56| aalacatoz (aalacatoz). it will be slippery. . b.5 f.1 p.154| ahcitoc (acitoc). he is reaching; it is reaching; it lies reaching. . b.2 f.3 p.72| ahhuiaxtoc , tla- (tlaaviaxtoc). it lies smelling a pleasant odor. x aux13>. b.4 f.11 p.115| amictoc , c- (camjctoc). it lies thirsting for it. . b.6 f.5 p.57| atlitoz , c- (catlitoz). he will be drinking it. . b.11 f.17 p.173| axtoque =tleh am (tleh amaxtoque). que hazeys?. . 71m2-25| ayacachohtoqueh (aiacachotoque). they sat rattling the rattle boards; they sit rattling gourd rattles; they sit rattling the gourd rattle. . b.2 f.2 p.57| ayochiuhtoqueh (aiochiuhtoque). they sit rattling the turtle shell rattle. . b.2 f.3 p.75| ayohuitectoqueh (aioujtectoque). they sit striking turtle shells. . b.2 f.3 p.75| cactoc (cactoc). it lies silent. . b.12 f.3 p.38| camachalohtoc (camachalotoc). it lies open-mouthed. . b.11 f.7 p.61| cenchiyahuatoc (cenchiavatoc). it lies completely moist. . b.11 f.24 p.253| chalantoc , tla- (tlachalantoc). there is an uproar. . b.7 f.1 p.2| chichinalotoc , tla- (tlachichinalotoc). ; they sit smoking. . b.4 f.5 p.46| chiuhtoc , ahmo- (amochiuhtoc). it does not lie growing. . b.11 f.11 p.111| chixtoc , qui- (qujchixtoc). it lies waiting for him. x>. b.2 f.8 p.143| citlallotoc (citlallotoc). spread with stars, covered with stars. ll>. b.12 f.1 p.12| cochqui =iitztoc (iitztoc cochqui). dormido assi (assi is dormir los ojos abiertos). . 55m-6| cochtoc =ni (cochtoc =ni). estar durmiendo. . 71m1-111| cochtoz (cochtoz). he will lie sleeping. . b.6 f.16 p.198| cozoltentoc (co?ultentoc). he is lying placed in a cradle. . b.12 f.4 p.56| cuacuahtoqueh , qui- (qujquaquatoque). they sat eating it. . b.2 f.1 p.55| cuacualacatoc (quaqualacatoc). he lay there rumbling; he stretches out rumbling. . b.3 f.3 p.36| cuahtoc , te- (tequatoc). he lies devouring people. . b.11 f.26 p.269| cuauhtenamehtoc (quauhtenametoc). it lies having a wooden wall, it has a wooden wall. . b.12 f.5 p.69| cuauhtentoc (quauhtentoc). they are lying stretched out on a board. . b.6 f.1 p.2| cuecuepocatoc , tla- (tlacuecuepocatoc). it spreads constantly blossoming, blooming. . b.11 f.20 p.200| cuicatoqueh (cujcatoque). they sat singing; they sit singing. . b.2 f.2 p.57| ehuatoc (eoatoc). it is rising. . b.12 f.4 p.56| elcihciuhtoc (elciciuhtoc). he remains sighing. . b.6 f.7 p.81| huactoc (oactoc). it lies dried up. . b.11 f.12 p.114| huehuetztoc (ueuetztoc). it is strewn about. . b.4 f.3 p.31| huetzititoc , mo- (movetzititoc). it lies fallen. . b.11 f.8 p.73| huetzto , xi- (xivetzto). lie reclining. . b.6 f.5 p.51| huetztoc =ni=onihuetztoca. huel. onihuetztoyah (huetztoc =ni=onihuetztoca. huel. onihuetztoyah). estar echado. . 71m2-27| huetztoz , ti- (tivetztoz). you will lie fallen; you will lie cast down. . b.6 f.6 p.70| huilantoc (vilantoc). it lies dragging, it lies stretched out; it lies strung out; it lies reaching outward; she lies outstretched. . b.2 f.10 p.161| ihcicatoc (icicatoc). he lies panting. . b.11 f.21 p.216| ihciuhtoz , t- (ticiuhtoz). you will be hasty. . b.6 f.10 p.124| ihcuiliuhtoc (ycujliuhtoc). it is written. . b.1 f.4 p.65| [i]hcuixtoqueh , tla- (tlacuistoqz). they were winding something. x>. b.8 f.5 p.85| ihiyoantoc , qu- (qujhioantoc). it lies attracting it with its breath. . b.11 f.8 p.79| [i]hneuctoc , tla- (tlahnecutoc). they are inhaling. . b.4 f.5 p.46| i[hy]axtoc , tla- (tlaiaxtoc). it spreads stinking. x aux13>. b.11 f.21 p.219| ihzatoz , t- (ti?atoz). you will be arisen, you will arise. . b.6 f.10 p.121| ihzotoqueh , m[o]- (mj?otoque). they sit bleeding themselves. . b.2 f.8 p.134| itoc , qu- (qujtoc). he is drinking it. . b.10 f.9 p.160| itoqueh , qu- (qujtoque). they lie drinking it. . b.2 f.5 p.95| itzto , xiqu- (xiqujtzto). hold vigil; look to it. . b.6 f.8 p.95| iuccitoc (icucitoc). it is ripening. . b.11 f.12 p.116| [i]xhuatoc , tla- (tlaxoatoc). it lies sprouting. . b.11 f.11 p.106| ixicatoz (ixicatoz). it will go on oozing. . b.11 f.9 p.88| ixmictoc =oc tlatla (oc^tlatlaixmictoc). auer todauia escuridad antes que amanezca del todo (idem). . 71m2-13| [i]ztlactoc , hualla- (vallaztlactoc). it lies drooling. . b.6 f.3 p.37| mahpilohtoqueh , om- (vmmapilotoque). it lies pointing. . b.6 f.19 p.237| matatacatoc , hualla- (oalamatatacatoc). he remains coveting. . b.6 f.3 p.31| micohuatoc (mjcoatoc). people lay as if dead. . b.2 f.4 p.82| mimictoc in nihuetzca =nom (nommimictoc in^nihuetzca). morirse de risa, o reirse mucho. . 71m2-12| nahnatzcatoc (na>natzcatoc). it is creaking. . b.4 f.5 p.48| nectoc , mo- (monectoc). it is being needed. . b.4 f.3 p.21| nectoc =ahtleh mo (ahtleh monectoc). auer toda abundancia delo necessario. . 71m2- 2| notzalotoc (notzalotoc). he is called to. . b.6 f.5 p.52| otoc =non (nonotoc). yazer. . 55m- 11| pactoqueh (pactoque). they sit rejoicing. . b.4 f.11 p.119| papapatlacatoc (papapatlacatoc). it lies fluttering. . b.1 f.2 p.47| papatlantoc (papatlantoc). it lies fluttering. . b.1 f.2 p.47| pipixauhtoc , tla- (tlapipixauhtoc). it lies scattered. . b.11 f.26 p.276| pixtoqueh , quim- (qujnpixtoque). they remain guarding it; they lie guarding them. x>. b.6 f.11 p.132| pohpocatoc (po>pocatoc). ; it is smoking. . b.6 f.1 p.2| popozontoc (popo?ontoc). it lies fluffed up. . b.11 f.19 p.193| quequentoc , qui- (qujqueque^toc). it lies blanketing it. . b.11 f.27 p.283| quiztoc (qujztoc). it is protruding, it is emerging; it is passing; it lies emerging. . b.11 f.1 p.7| quiztoyan , i- (iqujztoia). its emerging place. . b.11 f.11 p.105| teintoc (teintoc). it lies broken. . b.4 f.5 p.46| temotoc (temotoc). it lies descending, it slopes downward. . b.11 f.25 p.261| teztoc (teztoc). he sits grinding. . b.5 f.3 p.194| tlahuantoqueh (tlavantoque). they remain becoming drunk. . b.6 f.11 p.132| tlantoc (tlantoc). it lies ending; it remains ending. . b.11 f.9 p.84| tlantoz , tic- (tictlantoz). you will end it. . b.4 f.7 p.64| tlaocoxtoc (tlaocuxtoc). he lies saddened. x>. b.6 f.5 p.58| tzahtzililotoc (tzatzililotoc). he is cried out to. . b.6 f.5 p.52| tzahtzitoc , hual- (oaltzatzitoc). he remains crying out; it lies crying out. . b.6 f.2 p.21| xaxamacatoqueh (xaxamacatoqueh). estrago de muertos. . 55m-9| xixtoc , hualmo- (oalmoxixtoc). it lies excreting. . b.11 f.10 p.98| zozouhtoc (?o?ouhtoc). it lies opening, it lies spreading. . b.11 f.13 p.126| *aux14a*** ahuixtiyaz , t- (tavixtiaz). you will rejoice, you will go rejoicing. x +tia1 +del.y>. b.6 f.6 p.77| atlihtiyaz , n- (natlitiaz). I will go drinking. . b.5 f.1 p.163| cactiyahqueh , oqui- (oqujcactiaque). they went hearing it, they heard it. . b.1 f.4 p.69| chichintiyaz , tla- (tlachichintiaz). he will go sucking [e.g., smoking tube]. . b.2 f.2 p.68| chocholohtaliztli (chocholohtaliztli). trote; trote del que camina. . 55m-19| cuahtiyaz =nic= (cuahtiyaz =nic=). yo yre comiendo. s. algo. . 71m2-15| huetztiya , hual- (oaluetztia). it fell. . b.9 f.1 p.4| ihcatiya (icatia). it is standing, it is established. . b.4 f.4 p.38| ihtohtiya , quihual- (qujvalitotia). he went saying it, he said it. . b.12 f.7 p.110| itquitiyaz , qu- (qujtqujtiaz). she will go carrying it. . b.6 f.3 p.38| macatiyahqueh , techom- (techonmacatiaque). they went giving it to us. . b.6 f.8 p.91| mahuizohtiyani , qui- (qujmavi?otianj). he might marvel at it. . b.12 f.3 p.44| mattiyahqueh , qui- (qujmattiaque). they went knowing it, they knew it. . b.1 f.4 p.69| mauhtilitiyahqueh , hualmotla- (oalmotlamauhtilitiaque). they went causing fear. . b.12 f.2 p.30| nanacaztlachixtiyaz , ti- (tinanacaztlachixtiaz). you will go gazing sideways. x +tia1 +del.y>. b.6 f.10 p.122| nelhuayotihtiyahqueh , otla- (otlanelhoaiotitiaque). they went establishing their traditions. . b.9 f.7 p.92| notztiya , quinhual- (quinoalnotztia). he came advising them. . b.9 f.6 p.83| palehuihtiyazqueh , quihual- (qujvalpalevitiazque). they will go helping him. . b.12 f.8 p.117| petlauhtiyaz , ti- (tipetlauhtiaz). you will go naked. . b.1 f.1 p.27| quechmecayotiyaz , hual- (oalquechmecaiotiaz). he will come with a cord on his neck. . b.5 f.3 p.189| tlatitiya , qui- (qujtlatitia). he burns it, he goes burning it (diff). . b.3 f.3 p.33| tlatlachixtiyaz , ti- (titlatlachixtiaz). you will be gazing. x +tia1 +del.y>. b.6 f.10 p.122| yacantia , quinhual- (qujnoaliacantia). he goes along providing them with a guide. . b.12 f.2 p.27| yaochichiuhtiya , hualmo- (oalmoiauchichiuhtia). he went preparing himself for war. . b.8 f.2 p.22| yetiya , ohual- (ooalietia). it went being, he had it with him. . b.9 f.3 p.30| *aux14b*** aantihui , c- (caantivi). they go holding him. . b.2 f.6 p.117| acalhuitectihui , m[o]- (macalhujtectivi). boats go striking each other. . b.12 f.5 p.66| ahcoquetztiuh , m[o]- (macoquetztiuh). he goes raising himself. . b.4 f.11 p.122| ahcotlachixtihui , on- (onacotlachixtivi). they go along looking up. x>. b.12 f.3 p.38| atoyatl =zolontiuh (zolontiuh atoyatl). rio ahocinado o arroyo que corre con furia. . 71m1-191| calactiuh =ni=onicalactia (calactiuh =ni=onicalactia). combidarse sin ser combidado. . 71m2-2| cauhtihui , amech- (amechcauhtivi). ; they go leaving you [pl.]. . b.6 f.6 p.70| caxahuatiuh =ni=onicaxahuatia (caxahuatiuh =ni=onicaxahuatia). tornarse flaco, o desmedrar enla hazienda. . 71m2-2| cenyetihui (cenietivi). they go together, they go being together. . b.12 f.5 p.76| chachalcatiuh (chachalcatiuh). it comes rattling. . b.5 f.2 p.179| chachapantiuh (chachapantiuh). he goes along throwing himself on the ground; he goes flattened. . b.2 f.1 p.48| chipapatlacatiuh (chipapatlacatiuh). it goes constantly flying. . b.11 f.10 p.96| chocatihui , qui- (qujchocativi). they go weeping for it. . b.6 f.15 p.186| ciacahuihtiuh , qui- (qujciacaujtiuh). he goes carrying it under his arm. . b.2 f.5 p.104| cocoxtihui (cocoxtiuj). they go (being) sick. x>. b.2 f.4 p.86| cuahcuahtihui , qui- (qujqua>quativi). they go eating it. . b.6 f.17 p.204| cuaiztaztihui (quaiztaztivi). they become white-haired. x +x>z>. b.6 f.9 p.106| cualantiuh =ni (ni-cualantiuh). morir de coraje; morir de coraje {??printing error: re for de}. . 55m-14| cualantiuh (qualantiuh). he goes being angry. . b.6 f.18 p.225| cuecuetlacatiuh (cuecuetlacatiuh). it goes sputtering; it goes rustling. . b.2 f.5 p.101| cueptihui , hualmo- (oalmocueptiuj). they go turning back. . b.2 f.1 p.50| cuicatihui (cujcatiuj). they go singing. . b.2 f.4 p.93| elcihciuhtihui , qu- (quelciciuhtivi). they go sighing for it. . b.6 f.15 p.186| etixtiuh (yetixtiuh). yr muy cargada la carreta, o la barca. x +insert.y>. 71m2-6| huicatiuh , con- (convicatiuh). he goes carrying it. . b.6 f.2 p.19| huitectiuh , qui- (qujujtectiuh). he goes beating it. . b.2 f.5 p.104| icxiantiuh =nino ([i]cxiantiuh =nino). andar a priessa. x +a>i>. 71m1-021| ihcahuacatihui (icaoacatiuj). they go chanting. . b.2 f.4 p.87| ihcatihui (icativi). they go marching. . b.12 f.5 p.68| ihciuhtiuh =n (n-ihciuhtiuh). andar a priessa. . 71m1-021| ihcuanihtiuh , m[o]- (mjquanjtiuh). it goes drifting away, it goes moving away. . b.11 f.9 p.86| ihcuixtihui , qu- (qujcujxtiuj). they go reeling it up. . b.2 f.3 p.73| ihneuctiuh , qu- (qujnecutiuh). it goes smelling it. . b.11 f.11 p.102| ihtlacatiuh (ytlacatiuh). it becomes corrupted, it goes becoming corrupted. . b.10 f.8 p.132b| ihtotihtihui , m[o]- (mjtotitivi). they go dancing. . b.2 f.6 p.113| ihyaxtihui (hiaxtiuj). they go stinking. x>. b.2 f.2 p.58| ilpitiuh , t- (tilpitiuh). you go bound. . b.6 f.19 p.242| imacaztihui , qu- (qujmacaztivi). they go fearing it. . b.6 f.6 p.68| itquitihui , qu- (qujtqujtivi). they go carrying it. . b.2 f.8 p.140| iyauhtiuh , ontla- (ontlaiiauhtiuh). he goes making offering gestures. . b.2 f.9 p.156| macuextihtihui , mo- (momacuextitiuj). they go provided with bracelets. . b.2 f.1 p.44| mamaltiuh , quima- (quimamamaltiuh). he proceeds boring it. . b.7 f.2 p.27| mantiuh atl =zan (zan^mantiuh atl). mansa agua; mansa agua que corre y va llana. . 55m-13| matlaztiuh =nino (matlaztiuh =nino). andar codeando o dando de codo. . 71m1-021| mauhtihtihui , mo- (momauhtitivi). they go fearing. . b.12 f.5 p.76| metztli =hueixtiuh in (hueixtiuh in metztli). crecer la luna. x +phrase>. 55m-4| mictihui , om- (onmjctivi). they go along dying. . b.4 f.3 p.21| mintihui , quim- (qujnmjntivi). they go shooting arrows at them. . b.12 f.7 p.111| namictiuh , quin- (qujnnamjctiuh). it goes to contend with them. . b.12 f.6 p.86| namoxtihui , tla- (tlanamoxtivi). they go along looting. x>. b.12 f.6 p.84| nanacaztlachixtihui (nanacaztlachixtiuj). they go looking from side to side. x>. b.2 f.1 p.51| napalohtihuiya , qui- (qujnapalotiuja). he went carrying it. . b.1 f.1 p.3| nechicohtihui , qui- (qujnechicotiuj). they go gathering it. . b.2 f.3 p.73| nentihui (nentivi). ; they go along living. . b.6 f.20 p.259| notztiuh , quin- (qujnnotztiuh). he goes advising them; he goes speaking to them. . b.10 f.12 p.191| ohtlatocatihui (otlatocatiuj). they go traveling their course; they go walking the course. . b.4 f.6 p.57| ololhuihtihui , c- (cololhujtivi). they go encircling him; they go surrounding him. . b.2 f.6 p.115| onotihui (onotivi). they go along. . b.2 f.7 p.122| oquichehuatiuh (oqujcheoatiuh). he goes bearing himself like a man. . b.2 f.1 p.48| palantiuh (palantiuh). it rots, it goes rotting. . b.10 f.8 p.132b| pepetlauhtihui (pepetlauhtivi). they go naked; they each go naked. . b.2 f.8 p.140| peuhtiuh , om- (vmpeuhtiuh). it goes beginning. . b.4 f.1 p.1| pitztihui , qui- (qujpitztiuj). they go blowing it. . b.2 f.3 p.81| poliuhtihui (poliuhtiuhi). he proceeds to vanish, he goes vanishing. . b.7 f.1 p.3| quetztihuiya , qui- (quiquetztiuja). they went raising it. . b.1 f.1 p.3| quiquiztiuh (qujqujztiuh). ; it goes sticking out; it goes continually emerging. . b.4 f.3 p.24| tenhuitectiuh , mo- (motenvitectiuh). he goes crying out while striking his mouth with his hand. . b.12 f.7 p.103| tentiuh (tentiuh). it goes filled up; it goes full; it goes filled. . b.12 f.6 p.92| tlantiuh ==otlantia (tlantiuh ==otlantia). yrse acabando o consumiendo algo. . 71m2-22| tlatzihuitiuh , non- (nontlatzivitiuh). I go being lazy. . b.6 f.20 p.254| tontiuh , tla- (tlatontiuh). it goes loosening. . b.6 f.13 p.161| tzacuihtihuiya , hualla- (oallatzacujtivia). they came last. . b.2 f.7 p.129| tzatzauctihui , quihual- (qujoaltzatzacutivi). they go stopping it up. . b.2 f.8 p.140| tzimpachohtiuh , te- (tetzinpachotiuh). he goes directing from the rear. . b.12 f.3 p.40| tzotzontihui , qui- (qujtzotzontivi). they go beating it. . b.2 f.7 p.122| xexeliuhtiuh (xexeliuhtiuh). it goes dividing; it goes spreading. . b.12 f.3 p.40| xelohtiuh =nite=onitexelohtiah (xelohtiuh =nite=onitexelohtiah). colarse o meterse entre^otros, hendiendo por ellos. . 71m2-27| yacantiuh , te- (teiacantiuh). he goes leading people. . b.2 f.9 p.156| yahualohtihui , tla- (tlaiaoalotiuj). they go in procession, they go circling. . b.2 f.3 p.72| yollalihtihui , qui- (qujiollalitiuj). they go consoling him. . b.2 f.3 p.70| zaliuhtiuh (?aliuhtiuh). it goes adhering. . b.2 f.5 p.104| zalohtiuh , mo- (mo?alotiuh). it goes being glued. . b.9 f.7 p.96| *aux15*** huicaticalac , quihual- (qujvalhujcaticalac). it entered carrying it. . b.12 f.7 p.110| manenenticalaqui (manenenticalaquj). he enters on all fours. . b.5 f.2 p.175| *aux16*** actitlaza =nic (actitlaza =nic). hundir tierra. . 71m1-131| aquetztitlaza , c- (caquetztitla?a). they throw it on its back. . b.11 f.7 p.60| poliuhtitlaxtli =tla (tlapoliuhtitlaxtli). atajado hombre o muger que no acierta a hablar por le auer conuencido; confuso assi (assi is confundirme); atajado que no acierta a hablar; por le auer conuen#cido; confundido; atonito y turbado. x>. 55m-1| _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl