From cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx Thu May 1 14:17:58 2014 From: cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx (Ignacio Silva) Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 07:17:58 -0700 Subject: Obituario Librado Silva Galeana Message-ID: El día 29 de abril de 2014 falleció el maestro Librado Silva Galeana. Nacido en 1942 en la comunidad nahuahablante de Santa Ana Tlacotenco, Librado Silva Galeana fue hijo de Gregorio Silva Cervantes y de Margarita Galeana Martínez. Sus primeros estudios los cursó en su pueblo natal y en el de San Antonio Tecómitl. Estudió en la Escuela Normal Superior formándose como profesor de Enseñanza Elemental. Realizó su Servicio Social en la ciudad de Oaxaca en donde conoció a la que fuera, posteriormente, su esposa, Elpidia Elena Cruz Díaz. Una anécdota curiosa contaba el maestro Librado y es la siguiente: cuando estaban asignando los lugares a donde los nuevos profesores deberían ir a cumplir su Servicio Social, a él le fue asignado San Luis Potosí, en una comunidad más o menos alejada de la capital; sin embargo, una compañera suya de estudios, se enteró de que iba a ir a dicha comunidad y le pidió que intercambiaran lugares ya que ella era de ese lugar; él accedió y así fue como llegó a la capital de Oaxaca; “de no haberlo hecho…”, nos decía, “jamás hubiera conocido a su mamá”. Elena y Librado vinieron a radicar a la ciudad de México en donde procrearon tres hijos: Ignacio, Adriana y Gregorio. Un suceso lamentable llegó a sus vidas el 2 de mayo de 1972 y fue que, yendo de Milpa Alta a la ciudad de México, en el camino que va de Tlahuac a Xochimilco, fueron embestidos de frente por un camión de carga; de dicho accidente resultó el fallecimiento de Gregorio Silva Galeana, hermano de Librado, quien estaba estudiando Medicina y contaba con 21 años. Librado resultó con severos traumatismos que lo marcaron hasta el final de sus días. Este suceso cambió, radicalmente, la vida de la pareja recién formada de Elena y Librado. Hacia 1974 conoció en una conferencia al Dr. Miguel León-Portilla; el trato fue constante hasta que hacia 1982 el Dr. León-Portilla lo invitó a sumarse al Seminario de Cultura Náhuatl, que en ese entonces sesionaba en la Torre I de Humanidades. Ahí, el maestro Librado Silva Galeana, desarrolló su interés por la lengua Náhuatl, interés que lo llevó a dedicarse a escribir en esta lengua; también acometió el trabajo de traducción de textos clásicos como los Huehuetlahtolli de Olmos y el manuscrito de Cantares Mexicanos; siempre al lado del Dr. León-Portilla. Realizó el trabajo de elaboración del Diccionario del náhuatl en el español de México, que fue coordinado por Carlos Montemayor, junto a Enrique García Escamilla y Enrique García Paniagua. El maestro Librado Silva recibió el premio Nezahualcoyotl de Literatura en Lenguas Indígenas en 1994; organizó en muchas ocasiones los Encuentros de Hablantes de Náhuatl, fue objeto de muchos reconocimientos y homenajes en vida por parte de amigos, compañeros, familiares. Publicó textos de creación propia (Cozcacuahuco; In huey ohtli, In temazcalli)  en antologías y revistas especializadas (Estudios de Cultura Náhuatl). Fue miembro fundador de la entonces llamada Asociación Nacional de Escritores en Lenguas Indígenas, ahora Escritores en Lenguas Indígenas A.C., creada en 1992. En el año de 2011, en diciembre, Elpidia Elena Cruz Díaz, falleció. El maestro Librado Silva Galeana se sumió en una profunda depresión; nunca se pudo recuperar de la pérdida de su esposa; él nos decía a sus hijos: “Mi madre me dio la vida, su mamá se ha encargado de prolongármela”. Y es que durante 40 años, el maestro Librado se vio aquejado de osteomielitis en la pierna derecha, consecuencia del accidente descrito antes y que lo llevaba al quirófano al menos dos veces por año. Elena y Librado siempre andaban juntos, a donde quiera que invitaran a mi padre ahí llevaba a mi madre; a la muerte de ella, mi padre se volvió callado, una enorme tristeza lo invadió; cuando hablaba de ella nunca dejaba de derramar lágrimas; mi madre se adelantó; ahora él ha alcanzado a la mujer que siempre extrañó. Seguirán andando juntos.   Ignacio Silva Cruz. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Sat May 3 16:21:29 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? Message-ID: Hi Listeros I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first of all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for those interested http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be used that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a blog post. Thanks beforehand! Magnus -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Mon May 5 21:41:28 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 16:41:28 -0500 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced “cuilonh”, plural: “cuilo’meh”) to design men and women with gay sexual preference. It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. Examples: 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be homosexual, are there no women?) 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ýn Pancho, in cuilon ýn cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a … is an homosexual!) 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. Greetings Tomas > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > Hi Listeros > > I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos > national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this > translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones > sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina > this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, > receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first of > all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a > human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this > word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for > those interested > http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) > > For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you > know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, > homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are > used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and > region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone > selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be used > that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a blog > post. > > Thanks beforehand! > > Magnus > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Tue May 6 00:58:06 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 20:58:06 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: Colleagues, The three volumes of Chimalpahin and other Nahuatl works which have been held by the British and Foreign Bible Society is being put on sale at Christies later this month. I have been in contact with one of three private foundations which are working hard to see that this jewel remains available to scholars. http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/books-manuscripts/the-codex-chimalpahin-and-historical-works-by-5791577-details.aspx -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 518-608-4522 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx Tue May 6 03:27:14 2014 From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx (=?UTF-8?Q?Ximena_Guti=C3=A9rrez_Vasques?=) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from Texcoco. Regards, Ximena Gutierrez On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya wrote: > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! > > > > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced “cuilonh”, plural: > “cuilo’meh”) to design men and women with gay sexual preference. > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. > Examples: > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be homosexual, > are there no women?) > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ýn Pancho, in cuilon ýn cuitazoquit > (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a … is an homosexual!) > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. > > Greetings > Tomas > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 > > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > > > Hi Listeros > > > > I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos > > national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this > > translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones > > sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina > > this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, > > receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first > of > > all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a > > human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this > > word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for > > those interested > > > http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf > ) > > > > For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you > > know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, > > homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are > > used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and > > region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone > > selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be > used > > that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a > blog > > post. > > > > Thanks beforehand! > > > > Magnus > > > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. candidate > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Tue May 6 04:49:47 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 23:49:47 -0500 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hola Ximena, Cihuayolotl may mean woman's heart or female heart. In Spanish: corazón de mujer o corazón femenino. Maybe your teacher referred to “cihuayotl” which means femininity or “what is typical of a woman” (Spanish: femineidad; “lo de la mujer”). There is another possibility: that your teacher was speaking metaphorically (I do not know if pejoratively or not); if it is the case, the meaning of “cihuayolotl” may be: “the one who being man has the heart of a woman”. Here, we could also make use of the possessive : cihuayoleh (the one who has a female heart). The example can be extended in Cuetzalan-Nahuat: “Cihuayoleh” referred to a man “could” mean “homosexual”, but its first meaning is “a sensible man”. “Oquichyoleh” (“who has a male heart”) “could” mean “lesbian”, but principally: “a strong woman”. Saludos/regards Tomas Amaya Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from Texcoco. Regards, Ximena Gutierrez On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya wrote: Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced “cuilonh”, plural: “cuilo’meh”) to design men and women with gay sexual preference. It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. Examples: 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be homosexual, are there no women?) 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ýn Pancho, in cuilon ýn cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a … is an homosexual!) 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. Greetings Tomas > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > Hi Listeros > > I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos > national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this > translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones > sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina > this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, > receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first of > all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a > human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this > word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for > those interested > http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) > > For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you > know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, > homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are > used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and > region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone > selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be used > that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a blog > post. > > Thanks beforehand! > > Magnus > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Tue May 6 12:41:18 2014 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 08:41:18 -0400 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In general in Oapan and Balsas one can say sihsiwa:tl for effeminate man, the reduplication meaning 'like' the base noun. One can also say i:sihsiwa:w but this refers to a 'wife-like partner' (I heard it in reference to a young man of 13 or 14 who married a 14 or 15 year old girl, the implication was that he really didn't know what to do with a woman because they were both too young. tla:kasísiwá:tl effeminate man (recipr. reduplicated with short vowel, or refl. with oblique: nó:ma:kówah or -wa:n nó:ma:kówa) to be lesbians; to have a lesbian relationship with (note that this is for nomahma:kowah) suwa:tla:katl butch lesbian kuwtepol lesbian (lit., 'short penis') tla:kaneki to want a man (as a sexual partner, usually in reference to a "loose woman"[S] but may also be used in reference to a man aleged to be homosexual); to be horney (for a man) kukwilchi:ltsi:n (Ameyaltepec) kwikwichi:ltsi:n (Oapan) homosexual (derogatory, faggot) On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 11:27 PM, Ximena Gutiérrez Vasques < ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx> wrote: > I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a nahuatl > teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from Texcoco. > > > Regards, > > > Ximena Gutierrez > > > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya > wrote: > > > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! > > > > > > > > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced “cuilonh”, plural: > > “cuilo’meh”) to design men and women with gay sexual preference. > > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. > > Examples: > > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be homosexual, > > are there no women?) > > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). > > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ýn Pancho, in cuilon ýn cuitazoquit > > (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a … is an homosexual!) > > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our > > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. > > > > Greetings > > Tomas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 > > > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com > > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > > > > > Hi Listeros > > > > > > I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos > > > national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this > > > translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones > > > sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to > Molina > > > this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, > > > receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first > > of > > > all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in > a > > > human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard > this > > > word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for > > > those interested > > > > > > http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf > > ) > > > > > > For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you > > > know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, > > > homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are > > > used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community > and > > > region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone > > > selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be > > used > > > that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a > > blog > > > post. > > > > > > Thanks beforehand! > > > > > > Magnus > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > > PhD. candidate > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > Brown University > > > 128 Hope St. > > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue May 6 14:14:49 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 10:14:49 -0400 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the examples that you gave yesterday, you used the word "Xe" with yes-no questions. I'm not familiar with this word. Does it have a cognate in classical Nahuatl? Thank you, Tomas, Michael Quoting Tomas Amaya : > Hola Ximena, > > Cihuayolotl may mean woman's heart or female heart. In Spanish: > corazón de mujer o corazón femenino. Maybe your teacher referred to > "cihuayotl" which means femininity or "what is typical of a woman" > (Spanish: femineidad; "lo de la mujer"). > > > > There is another possibility: that your teacher was speaking > metaphorically (I do not know if pejoratively or not); if it is the > case, the meaning of "cihuayolotl" may be: "the one who being man has > the heart of a woman". Here, we could also make use of the possessive > : cihuayoleh (the one who has a female heart). > > > > The example can be extended in Cuetzalan-Nahuat: > > "Cihuayoleh" referred to a man "could" mean "homosexual", but its > first meaning is "a sensible man". "Oquichyoleh" ("who has a male > heart") "could" mean "lesbian", but principally: "a strong woman". > > Saludos/regards > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx > To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com > CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a > nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from > Texcoco. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Ximena Gutierrez > > > > > > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya wrote: > > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! > > > > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced "cuilonh", plural: > "cuilo'meh") to design men and women with gay sexual preference. > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. > Examples: > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be > homosexual, are there no women?) > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ýn Pancho, in cuilon ýn > cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ... > is an homosexual!) > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. > > Greetings > Tomas > > > > > > >> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 >> From: magnuspharao at gmail.com >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > >> >> Hi Listeros >> >> I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos >> national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this >> translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones >> sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina >> this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, >> receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first of >> all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a >> human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this >> word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for >> those interested >> http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) >> >> For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you >> know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, >> homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are >> used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and >> region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone >> selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be used >> that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a blog >> post. >> >> Thanks beforehand! >> >> Magnus >> >> >> -- >> Magnus Pharao Hansen >> PhD. candidate >> Department of Anthropology >> >> Brown University >> 128 Hope St. >> Providence, RI 02906 >> >> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * >> US: 001 401 651 8413 >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Wed May 7 17:55:57 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 12:55:57 -0500 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: <20140506101449.zuevmylkgscggwsw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Michael This “xe” belongs to the “question - particles”. Other particles of the same kind are: “xa”, “xoh”, “cox” Particles that I find related hereto are “cuix” and “azo” in classical nahuatl. Here their meaning (approximately) in English and Spanish: 1) (a)xá: maybe, then..?; será que …, entonces…? Example: Xa ticnequi tiaz cineco. Eng. Do you, maybe, want to to go to the movies? Then, do you want to go to movies? Sp. ¿Será que quieres ir al cine? ¿Quieres ir al cine, tal vez? 2) Xoh: really…?; ¿De veras … Example: Xoh ticnequi tiaz cineco. Eng: Do you really want to go to the movies? Sp.: ¿De veras quieres ir al cine? 3) Xe: Tell me, is it true that; a poco … Exemple: Xe ticnequi tiaz cineco. Eng.: Tell me, is it true that you want to go to the movies (I supposed that you do not like it) Sp.: A poco (de veras) quieres ir al cine. 4) Cox: particle to question; partícula para preguntar. Example: cox ticnequi tiaz cineco. Eng.: Do yo want to go to the movies? Sp. ¿Quieres ir al cine? For better understanding, I think its important to mention the possible answers: 1. Quema nicnequi niaz.Yes, I want to go. 2. Ahmo, caah nicnequi niaz / Ahmo, ahmo nicnequi niaz. No, I don want to go: 3. Quén yeh ahmo, achá quema. Why not? Maybe yes. 4. Quema. Yes > Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 10:14:49 -0400 > From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com > CC: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx; magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > > In the examples that you gave yesterday, you used the word "Xe" with > yes-no questions. I'm not familiar with this word. Does it have a > cognate in classical Nahuatl? > > Thank you, Tomas, > > Michael > > Quoting Tomas Amaya : > > > Hola Ximena, > > > > Cihuayolotl may mean woman's heart or female heart. In Spanish: > > corazón de mujer o corazón femenino. Maybe your teacher referred to > > "cihuayotl" which means femininity or "what is typical of a woman" > > (Spanish: femineidad; "lo de la mujer"). > > > > > > > > There is another possibility: that your teacher was speaking > > metaphorically (I do not know if pejoratively or not); if it is the > > case, the meaning of "cihuayolotl" may be: "the one who being man has > > the heart of a woman". Here, we could also make use of the possessive > > : cihuayoleh (the one who has a female heart). > > > > > > > > The example can be extended in Cuetzalan-Nahuat: > > > > "Cihuayoleh" referred to a man "could" mean "homosexual", but its > > first meaning is "a sensible man". "Oquichyoleh" ("who has a male > > heart") "could" mean "lesbian", but principally: "a strong woman". > > > > Saludos/regards > > > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx > > To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com > > CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > > > > > I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a > > nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from > > Texcoco. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Ximena Gutierrez > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya wrote: > > > > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! > > > > > > > > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced "cuilonh", plural: > > "cuilo'meh") to design men and women with gay sexual preference. > > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. > > Examples: > > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be > > homosexual, are there no women?) > > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). > > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ýn Pancho, in cuilon ýn > > cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ... > > is an homosexual!) > > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our > > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. > > > > Greetings > > Tomas > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 > >> From: magnuspharao at gmail.com > >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > > > > >> > >> Hi Listeros > >> > >> I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos > >> national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this > >> translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones > >> sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina > >> this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, > >> receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first of > >> all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a > >> human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this > >> word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for > >> those interested > >> http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) > >> > >> For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you > >> know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, > >> homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are > >> used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and > >> region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone > >> selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be used > >> that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a blog > >> post. > >> > >> Thanks beforehand! > >> > >> Magnus > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Magnus Pharao Hansen > >> PhD. candidate > >> Department of Anthropology > >> > >> Brown University > >> 128 Hope St. > >> Providence, RI 02906 > >> > >> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > >> US: 001 401 651 8413 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Sat May 17 02:46:21 2014 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero) Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:46:21 +0800 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre Message-ID: Hola Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema Según yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . Espero su sabia respuesta Gracias Roberto Romero Gutierrez _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Sat May 17 03:16:46 2014 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero) Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 11:16:46 +0800 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hola Uno de los vocablos de origen nahuatl que se usan para nombrar a los hombres homosexuales cuya función en su relación es ser los penetrados, es la palabra Mayate o ya deformado Mayaton, que viene de Mayatli La palabra Mayate la he escuchado y se usa lo mismo en colonias populares de la ciudad de México que en ciudades del Estado de Mexico y en pequeños pueblos de la región Bajío. La razon de usar la palabra Mayate para los entendidos es que con esa misma palabra se nombra a escarabajos, insectos cuya única defensa es "Empinar la cola" "Parar la cola" " Presentan La cola" . Por analogía se dice que es lo que hacen los hombres homosexuales para en la copula poder ser penetrados. "Se empinan", "Paran la cola" o ya hispanizado Presentan el culo . Sin homofobia alguna mi pequeña contribución. Espero sea de utilidad Roberto Romero Gutierrez 2014-05-08 1:55 GMT+08:00, Tomas Amaya : > Hi, Michael > > This “xe” belongs to the “question - particles”. Other particles of the same > kind are: “xa”, “xoh”, “cox” > Particles that I find related hereto are “cuix” and “azo” in classical > nahuatl. > Here their meaning (approximately) in English and Spanish: > 1) > (a)xá: maybe, then..?; será que …, entonces…? > Example: Xa ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng. Do you, maybe, want to to go to the movies? Then, do you want to go to > movies? > Sp. ¿Será que quieres ir al cine? ¿Quieres ir al cine, tal vez? > 2) > Xoh: really…?; ¿De veras … > Example: Xoh ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng: Do you really want to go to the movies? > Sp.: ¿De veras quieres ir al cine? > 3) > Xe: Tell me, is it true that; a poco … > Exemple: Xe ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng.: Tell me, is it true that you want to go to the movies (I supposed that > you do not like it) > Sp.: A poco (de veras) quieres ir al cine. > 4) > Cox: particle to question; partícula para preguntar. > Example: cox ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng.: Do yo want to go to the movies? > Sp. ¿Quieres ir al cine? > > For better understanding, I think its important to mention the possible > answers: > 1. Quema nicnequi niaz.Yes, I want to go. > 2. Ahmo, caah nicnequi niaz / Ahmo, ahmo nicnequi niaz. No, I don want to > go: > 3. Quén yeh ahmo, achá quema. Why not? Maybe yes. > 4. Quema. Yes > > > >> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 10:14:49 -0400 >> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >> To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com >> CC: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx; magnuspharao at gmail.com; >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> >> >> In the examples that you gave yesterday, you used the word "Xe" with >> yes-no questions. I'm not familiar with this word. Does it have a >> cognate in classical Nahuatl? >> >> Thank you, Tomas, >> >> Michael >> >> Quoting Tomas Amaya : >> >> > Hola Ximena, >> > >> > Cihuayolotl may mean woman's heart or female heart. In Spanish: >> > corazón de mujer o corazón femenino. Maybe your teacher referred to >> > "cihuayotl" which means femininity or "what is typical of a woman" >> > (Spanish: femineidad; "lo de la mujer"). >> > >> > >> > >> > There is another possibility: that your teacher was speaking >> > metaphorically (I do not know if pejoratively or not); if it is the >> > case, the meaning of "cihuayolotl" may be: "the one who being man has >> > the heart of a woman". Here, we could also make use of the possessive >> > : cihuayoleh (the one who has a female heart). >> > >> > >> > >> > The example can be extended in Cuetzalan-Nahuat: >> > >> > "Cihuayoleh" referred to a man "could" mean "homosexual", but its >> > first meaning is "a sensible man". "Oquichyoleh" ("who has a male >> > heart") "could" mean "lesbian", but principally: "a strong woman". >> > >> > Saludos/regards >> > >> > Tomas Amaya >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 >> > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> > From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx >> > To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com >> > CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > >> > >> > >> > I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a >> > nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from >> > Texcoco. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Ximena Gutierrez >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! >> > >> > >> > >> > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced "cuilonh", plural: >> > "cuilo'meh") to design men and women with gay sexual preference. >> > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. >> > Examples: >> > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be >> > homosexual, are there no women?) >> > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). >> > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ýn Pancho, in cuilon ýn >> > cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ... >> > is an homosexual!) >> > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our >> > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. >> > >> > Greetings >> > Tomas >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 >> >> From: magnuspharao at gmail.com >> >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> > >> > >> >> >> >> Hi Listeros >> >> >> >> I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos >> >> national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this >> >> translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones >> >> sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to >> >> Molina >> >> this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, >> >> receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first >> >> of >> >> all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in >> >> a >> >> human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard >> >> this >> >> word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for >> >> those interested >> >> http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) >> >> >> >> For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words >> >> you >> >> know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, >> >> homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they >> >> are >> >> used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community >> >> and >> >> region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone >> >> selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be >> >> used >> >> that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a >> >> blog >> >> post. >> >> >> >> Thanks beforehand! >> >> >> >> Magnus >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Magnus Pharao Hansen >> >> PhD. candidate >> >> Department of Anthropology >> >> >> >> Brown University >> >> 128 Hope St. >> >> Providence, RI 02906 >> >> >> >> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * >> >> US: 001 401 651 8413 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Nahuatl mailing list >> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nahuatl mailing list >> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nahuatl mailing list >> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat May 17 14:48:13 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) Michael Quoting Roberto Romero : > Hola > > Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema > > Según yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de > liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli > > Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre > > Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . > > Espero su sabia respuesta > > Gracias > Roberto Romero Gutierrez > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun May 18 13:00:10 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 09:00:10 -0400 Subject: conejo y abuela In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know how cihtli 'hare' and cihtli 'grandmother' became homophones? Is this a case of accidental harmony owing to sound changes. I notice in Karttunen's dictionary that there is a dialectal term for 'grandmother' in the form ciztli. tlazohcamati, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Sun May 18 12:35:00 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 07:35:00 -0500 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: <20140517104813.pi89rhyeio0sgcc4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Saludos Roberto, saludos a todos. Escudo de liebre se dice: cihchimalli (hare shield) Sagrado queda como teoh a partir de teoyouh. Resultado teohcihchimalli. Pero viene la pregunta quién o qué es lo sagrado: la liebre o el escudo. Según tu pregunta lo sagrado es el escudo, entonces es mejor decir: Cihteohchimalli (forzando el inglés: hare god-shield, en alemán: Hasengottesschild) Un ejemplo: si dices teohtlahtolamoxtli estarás diciendo: libro de la palabra divina; pero si escribes teohamoxtlahtolli, el significado será: palabra del libro sagrado. Tú, al escribir Teuchimalcitli estás diciendo: "liebre del escudo sagrado" es decir una liebre que porta un escudo sagrado o una liebre que (a lo mejor) está pintada en un escudo sagrado. Otra forma de decir lo que preguntas es: cihtli iteochimal, i.e. : el escudo sagrado de la liebre. Ahora bien, por tratarse de un lugar, lo mejor sería decir: Cihteochimallan; a no ser que te refieras a los habitantes, personas que portan divinos escudos de liebre, entonces tendrás: Cihteochimalhuacan. Si la palabra no se refiere a liebre sino a abuela, pues hay que cambiar todo. Pero pensemos que hablamos de una liebre. Nuevamente saludos Tomas Amaya > Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 > From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre > > Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) > > > > Michael > > > Quoting Roberto Romero : > > > Hola > > > > Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema > > > > Según yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de > > liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli > > > > Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre > > > > Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . > > > > Espero su sabia respuesta > > > > Gracias > > Roberto Romero Gutierrez > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun May 18 14:24:09 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:24:09 -0400 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Se supone que Roberto quiere formar un neologismo, ¿verdad?. Bueno, no creo que pueda haber una h metida (cihteoHchimalli). Teoyoh sería sagrado, i.e., “lleno o cubierto de una divinidad”, pero el agentivo sólo puede combinarse como teoyohca-. Así que creo que lo que tendríamos es chi(tli) + teo(tl) + chimalli = cihteochimalli. John On May 18, 2014, at 8:35, Tomas Amaya wrote: > Saludos Roberto, saludos a todos. > > Escudo de liebre se dice: cihchimalli (hare shield) > > Sagrado queda como teoh a partir de teoyouh. > > Resultado teohcihchimalli. > > Pero viene la pregunta quién o qué es lo sagrado: la liebre o el escudo. Según tu pregunta lo sagrado es el escudo, entonces es mejor decir: Cihteohchimalli (forzando el inglés: hare god-shield, en alemán: Hasengottesschild) > > Un ejemplo: si dices teohtlahtolamoxtli estarás diciendo: libro de la palabra divina; pero si escribes teohamoxtlahtolli, el significado será: palabra del libro sagrado. > > > > Tú, al escribir Teuchimalcitli estás diciendo: "liebre del escudo sagrado" es decir una liebre que porta un escudo sagrado o una liebre que (a lo mejor) está pintada en un escudo sagrado. > > Otra forma de decir lo que preguntas es: cihtli iteochimal, i.e. : el escudo sagrado de la liebre. > > Ahora bien, por tratarse de un lugar, lo mejor sería decir: Cihteochimallan; a no ser que te refieras a los habitantes, personas que portan divinos escudos de liebre, entonces tendrás: Cihteochimalhuacan. > > > > Si la palabra no se refiere a liebre sino a abuela, pues hay que cambiar todo. Pero pensemos que hablamos de una liebre. > > > > Nuevamente saludos > > > > Tomas Amaya > > >> Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 >> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre >> >> Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting Roberto Romero : >> >>> Hola >>> >>> Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema >>> >>> Según yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de >>> liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli >>> >>> Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre >>> >>> Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . >>> >>> Espero su sabia respuesta >>> >>> Gracias >>> Roberto Romero Gutierrez >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun May 18 14:17:57 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:17:57 -0400 Subject: conejo y abuela In-Reply-To: <20140518090010.64nbsq3x4wso0ock@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I meant to say "accidental homophony" not "accidental harmony". > :-) Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Does anyone know how cihtli 'hare' and cihtli 'grandmother' became > homophones? Is this a case of accidental harmony owing to sound > changes. I notice in Karttunen's dictionary that there is a dialectal > term for 'grandmother' in the form ciztli. > > tlazohcamati, > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Sun May 18 16:59:36 2014 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero) Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 00:59:36 +0800 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: <5C7151B9-22DE-4473-99D9-B244EE5FAF8B@me.com> Message-ID: Gracias a todos por sus respuestas Efectivamente en la pregunta no tiene nada que ver la abuela Esa abuela quede repente surge en los mitos de la religion mesoamericana donde era frecuente que la abuela resultara al final la hija o que fueran la misma cosa. Bueno eso pasa no sólo en la religión mesoamericana también ocurre también en otras religiones aun en uso. De nuevo gracias Roberto Romero Gutierrez El 18/5/14, John Sullivan escribió: > Se supone que Roberto quiere formar un neologismo, ¿verdad?. Bueno, no creo > que pueda haber una h metida (cihteoHchimalli). Teoyoh sería sagrado, i.e., > “lleno o cubierto de una divinidad”, pero el agentivo sólo puede combinarse > como teoyohca-. Así que creo que lo que tendríamos es chi(tli) + teo(tl) + > chimalli = cihteochimalli. > John > > On May 18, 2014, at 8:35, Tomas Amaya wrote: > >> Saludos Roberto, saludos a todos. >> >> Escudo de liebre se dice: cihchimalli (hare shield) >> >> Sagrado queda como teoh a partir de teoyouh. >> >> Resultado teohcihchimalli. >> >> Pero viene la pregunta quién o qué es lo sagrado: la liebre o el escudo. >> Según tu pregunta lo sagrado es el escudo, entonces es mejor decir: >> Cihteohchimalli (forzando el inglés: hare god-shield, en alemán: >> Hasengottesschild) >> >> Un ejemplo: si dices teohtlahtolamoxtli estarás diciendo: libro de la >> palabra divina; pero si escribes teohamoxtlahtolli, el significado será: >> palabra del libro sagrado. >> >> >> >> Tú, al escribir Teuchimalcitli estás diciendo: "liebre del escudo sagrado" >> es decir una liebre que porta un escudo sagrado o una liebre que (a lo >> mejor) está pintada en un escudo sagrado. >> >> Otra forma de decir lo que preguntas es: cihtli iteochimal, i.e. : el >> escudo sagrado de la liebre. >> >> Ahora bien, por tratarse de un lugar, lo mejor sería decir: >> Cihteochimallan; a no ser que te refieras a los habitantes, personas que >> portan divinos escudos de liebre, entonces tendrás: Cihteochimalhuacan. >> >> >> >> >> Si la palabra no se refiere a liebre sino a abuela, pues hay que cambiar >> todo. Pero pensemos que hablamos de una liebre. >> >> >> >> Nuevamente saludos >> >> >> >> Tomas Amaya >> >> >>> Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 >>> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >>> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre >>> >>> Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> Quoting Roberto Romero : >>> >>>> Hola >>>> >>>> Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema >>>> >>>> Según yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de >>>> liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli >>>> >>>> Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre >>>> >>>> Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . >>>> >>>> Espero su sabia respuesta >>>> >>>> Gracias >>>> Roberto Romero Gutierrez >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Sun May 18 17:15:41 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 12:15:41 -0500 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: <5C7151B9-22DE-4473-99D9-B244EE5FAF8B@me.com> Message-ID: Hola John, tocnihuané: De acuerdo en principio. Por supuesto que está bien lo de cihteochimalli. El problema es que la o de teo es una o larga y yo quise ilustrarle a Roberto la (mi) pronunciación. Mi h no es una hache muy aspirada, fuerte casi, j española. Quise más bien indicar esa "prolongación oscura de la o". Algunos usan "uh" con en tecuhtli o necuhtli. Ese "uh" que a veces se vuelve semiconsonante como yauh de ir, que algunos escriben youi. Es el problema de usar un alfabeto que no puede cubrir todos los sonidos del nahuatl. Aunque es mejor, pienso yo, seguir usándolo. Si no, tendriamos para cada región o pueblo la necesidad de hacer un alfabeto a la medida. Esto traería como consecuencia una mayor fragmentación del nahuatl y los textos de los siglos xvi y xvii seguirían impenetrables para ellos. Es mejor así. Cada quien le dará el matiz de pronunciación de su región pero todos entenderán la palabra escrita. Muy bien John, y ojalá que la próxima vez que vengas a Puebla pueda saludarte personalmente. Tomas Amaya > From: idiez at me.com > Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:24:09 -0400 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre > > Se supone que Roberto quiere formar un neologismo, ¿verdad?. Bueno, no creo que pueda haber una h metida (cihteoHchimalli). Teoyoh sería sagrado, i.e., “lleno o cubierto de una divinidad”, pero el agentivo sólo puede combinarse como teoyohca-. Así que creo que lo que tendríamos es chi(tli) + teo(tl) + chimalli = cihteochimalli. > John > > On May 18, 2014, at 8:35, Tomas Amaya wrote: > > > Saludos Roberto, saludos a todos. > > > > Escudo de liebre se dice: cihchimalli (hare shield) > > > > Sagrado queda como teoh a partir de teoyouh. > > > > Resultado teohcihchimalli. > > > > Pero viene la pregunta quién o qué es lo sagrado: la liebre o el escudo. Según tu pregunta lo sagrado es el escudo, entonces es mejor decir: Cihteohchimalli (forzando el inglés: hare god-shield, en alemán: Hasengottesschild) > > > > Un ejemplo: si dices teohtlahtolamoxtli estarás diciendo: libro de la palabra divina; pero si escribes teohamoxtlahtolli, el significado será: palabra del libro sagrado. > > > > > > > > Tú, al escribir Teuchimalcitli estás diciendo: "liebre del escudo sagrado" es decir una liebre que porta un escudo sagrado o una liebre que (a lo mejor) está pintada en un escudo sagrado. > > > > Otra forma de decir lo que preguntas es: cihtli iteochimal, i.e. : el escudo sagrado de la liebre. > > > > Ahora bien, por tratarse de un lugar, lo mejor sería decir: Cihteochimallan; a no ser que te refieras a los habitantes, personas que portan divinos escudos de liebre, entonces tendrás: Cihteochimalhuacan. > > > > > > > > Si la palabra no se refiere a liebre sino a abuela, pues hay que cambiar todo. Pero pensemos que hablamos de una liebre. > > > > > > > > Nuevamente saludos > > > > > > > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > >> Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 > >> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre > >> > >> Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> > >> Quoting Roberto Romero : > >> > >>> Hola > >>> > >>> Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema > >>> > >>> Según yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de > >>> liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli > >>> > >>> Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre > >>> > >>> Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . > >>> > >>> Espero su sabia respuesta > >>> > >>> Gracias > >>> Roberto Romero Gutierrez > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Nahuatl mailing list > >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon May 19 00:30:43 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 20:30:43 -0400 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Notequixpoh, Me alegro mucho saber que estamos de acuerdo con respecto a la necesidad de un ortografía que no sólo permita la comunicación entre variantes actuales, sino la posibilidad de leer las obras antiguas redactadas en escritura alfabética. De hecho, las primeras convenciones para /w/ y /kw/ al final de sílaba eran -hu y -cu o -cuh, respectivamente. Pero, como dichas convenciones iniciales daban lugar a confusiones, ya que podrían interpretarse como una sílaba en vez de una consonante (véase el caso de tecuhtli, que hasta hoy días se interpreta erróneamente como tres sílabas), se reemplazaron dichas convenciones por -uh y -uc. Voy a estar en Puebla en octubre, y nos ponemos de acuerdo. Un abrazo, John On May 18, 2014, at 13:15, Tomas Amaya wrote: > Hola John, tocnihuané: > De acuerdo en principio. Por supuesto que está bien lo de cihteochimalli. El problema es que la o de teo es una o larga y yo quise ilustrarle a Roberto la (mi) pronunciación. Mi h no es una hache muy aspirada, fuerte casi, j española. Quise más bien indicar esa "prolongación oscura de la o". Algunos usan "uh" con en tecuhtli o necuhtli. Ese "uh" que a veces se vuelve semiconsonante como yauh de ir, que algunos escriben youi. Es el problema de usar un alfabeto que no puede cubrir todos los sonidos del nahuatl. Aunque es mejor, pienso yo, seguir usándolo. Si no, tendriamos para cada región o pueblo la necesidad de hacer un alfabeto a la medida. Esto traería como consecuencia una mayor fragmentación del nahuatl y los textos de los siglos xvi y xvii seguirían impenetrables para ellos. Es mejor así. Cada quien le dará el matiz de pronunciación de su región pero todos entenderán la palabra escrita. Muy bien John, y ojalá que la próxima vez que vengas a Puebla pueda saludarte personalmente. > > Tomas Amaya > > > From: idiez at me.com > > Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:24:09 -0400 > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre > > > > Se supone que Roberto quiere formar un neologismo, ¿verdad?. Bueno, no creo que pueda haber una h metida (cihteoHchimalli). Teoyoh sería sagrado, i.e., “lleno o cubierto de una divinidad”, pero el agentivo sólo puede combinarse como teoyohca-. Así que creo que lo que tendríamos es chi(tli) + teo(tl) + chimalli = cihteochimalli. > > John > > > > On May 18, 2014, at 8:35, Tomas Amaya wrote: > > > > > Saludos Roberto, saludos a todos. > > > > > > Escudo de liebre se dice: cihchimalli (hare shield) > > > > > > Sagrado queda como teoh a partir de teoyouh. > > > > > > Resultado teohcihchimalli. > > > > > > Pero viene la pregunta quién o qué es lo sagrado: la liebre o el escudo. Según tu pregunta lo sagrado es el escudo, entonces es mejor decir: Cihteohchimalli (forzando el inglés: hare god-shield, en alemán: Hasengottesschild) > > > > > > Un ejemplo: si dices teohtlahtolamoxtli estarás diciendo: libro de la palabra divina; pero si escribes teohamoxtlahtolli, el significado será: palabra del libro sagrado. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tú, al escribir Teuchimalcitli estás diciendo: "liebre del escudo sagrado" es decir una liebre que porta un escudo sagrado o una liebre que (a lo mejor) está pintada en un escudo sagrado. > > > > > > Otra forma de decir lo que preguntas es: cihtli iteochimal, i.e. : el escudo sagrado de la liebre. > > > > > > Ahora bien, por tratarse de un lugar, lo mejor sería decir: Cihteochimallan; a no ser que te refieras a los habitantes, personas que portan divinos escudos de liebre, entonces tendrás: Cihteochimalhuacan. > > > > > > > > > > > > Si la palabra no se refiere a liebre sino a abuela, pues hay que cambiar todo. Pero pensemos que hablamos de una liebre. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nuevamente saludos > > > > > > > > > > > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > > > > >> Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 > > >> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre > > >> > > >> Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Michael > > >> > > >> > > >> Quoting Roberto Romero : > > >> > > >>> Hola > > >>> > > >>> Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema > > >>> > > >>> Según yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de > > >>> liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli > > >>> > > >>> Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre > > >>> > > >>> Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . > > >>> > > >>> Espero su sabia respuesta > > >>> > > >>> Gracias > > >>> Roberto Romero Gutierrez > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Nahuatl mailing list > > >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From wenakuo at yahoo.com Wed May 21 16:41:34 2014 From: wenakuo at yahoo.com (David Young) Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 09:41:34 -0700 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I feel compelled to respond to your inquiry.   A number of years ago I asked one of the elders of the community from Mexico City to tell me about men and women that were gay and lesbian.  He said that there were communities where gay men lived and communities where lesbian women lived in precolumbian times.  You had to be an adult to live in these communities.  The men were referred to as papalotlacatl and the women were yaocihuatl.  They were communities of artisans in the case of men and warrior women in the case of the women. In many of the Indigenous communities in North America, there are specific words for people that were gender different.  In some cases, there was more than one gender recognized by the communities.  In many communities those that were gender different were revered and held special roles within the community.  With the coming of the Catholic priests, these individuals and the roles that they played became hidden to keep these individuals safe from persecution by the Christians.  The Pueblos, for example, would not talk about their gender different relatives.  The Apache and Navajo held special places in particular ceremonies for the naadle, recognizing four genders.  Many of these roles have been lost over time, the persecution of Christians and the advent of gay liberation that has a "recognize ME because I'm gay" attitude.  The gay movement is in stark contrast to Indigenous notions of humility and recognized role assignment within the community.  The gay movement has focused on sex rather than community role. When I lived in Veracruz, Mexico, in 1979, I became familiar with the term Mayate.  In Aztlan (the US southwest) the term means "black person" and it can be pejorative.  In Mexico, it referred to a male penetrative partner in a "homosexual" relationship.  Let me qualify this, much to the chagrin of Mexicanos I imagine, by saying that there is a distinction between what straight men regard as "gay" in the US and what is practiced in Mexico.  My experience is that straight men in Mexico will engage in sexual behavior with other men more readily than in the US.  The "straight" Mexicano men that engage in sex with "gay" men in Mexico in an insertive, active, masculine role are regarded as mayates.  While the "gay" men that are the receptive partners are regarded as maricones, and all of the other pejorative terms you can think of.  If we regard what men do sexually as a reflection of identity then we miss the boat in attempting to find language in nahuatl to describe something that is very different today, and for which we, not only refuse to have healthy discussions about, but disregard because of our own inhibitions or prejudices. The American (read US) paradigm of assigning sexual behavior to deviant identity categories fails to account for a diversity of sexual expression that has absolutely nothing to do with identity.  And, it fails to account for culturally defined, (historically and contemporarily) gender roles outside of the male/female binary that have nothing to do with sexual behavior. So, while mayatli may be understood to be the "receptive" anal sexual partner, that is not how it is understood in "practice."  A more thorough discourse with those of us that have both lived and studied the larger questions of gender, sexual identity and sexual behavior is in order if there is to be a better understanding of language and how it is used and understood.  Heterosexually identified men can not articulate this issue, "queens" engaging straight men in sex cannot usually articulate this issue, and gay identified men usual inculcate terms, pejorative or otherwise, without full consideration of their implications.  Because of the shame and prejudice, there are rarely healthy cross cultural and cross history discourses on the topics.  My two cents. David Atekpatzin Young, MA, Curandero Apache Tribe of Colorado On Saturday, May 17, 2014 6:57 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: Hola Uno de los vocablos de origen nahuatl que se usan para nombrar a los hombres homosexuales cuya función en su relación es ser los penetrados, es la palabra Mayate o ya deformado Mayaton, que viene de Mayatli La palabra Mayate la he escuchado y se usa lo mismo en colonias populares de la ciudad de México que en ciudades del Estado de Mexico y  en pequeños pueblos de la región Bajío. La razon de usar la  palabra Mayate para los entendidos es que con esa misma palabra se nombra a  escarabajos, insectos cuya única defensa es "Empinar la cola"  "Parar la cola" " Presentan  La cola" . Por analogía se dice que es lo que hacen  los hombres homosexuales para en  la copula poder ser penetrados. "Se empinan", "Paran la cola" o ya hispanizado Presentan  el culo . Sin homofobia alguna mi pequeña contribución. Espero sea de utilidad Roberto Romero Gutierrez 2014-05-08 1:55 GMT+08:00, Tomas Amaya : > Hi, Michael > > This “xe” belongs to the “question - particles”. Other particles of the same > kind are: “xa”, “xoh”, “cox” > Particles that I find related hereto are “cuix” and “azo” in classical > nahuatl. > Here their meaning (approximately) in English and Spanish: > 1) > (a)xá: maybe, then..?; será que …, entonces…? > Example: Xa ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng. Do you, maybe, want to to go to the movies? Then, do you want to go to > movies? > Sp. ¿Será que quieres ir al cine? ¿Quieres ir al cine, tal vez? > 2) > Xoh: really…?; ¿De veras … > Example: Xoh ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng: Do you really want to go to the movies? > Sp.: ¿De veras quieres ir al cine? > 3) > Xe: Tell me,  is it true that; a poco … > Exemple: Xe ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng.: Tell me, is it true that you want to go to the movies (I supposed that > you do not like it) > Sp.: A poco (de veras) quieres ir al cine. > 4) > Cox: particle to question; partícula para preguntar. > Example: cox ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng.: Do yo want to go to the movies? > Sp. ¿Quieres ir al cine? > > For better understanding, I think its important to mention the possible > answers: > 1. Quema nicnequi niaz.Yes, I want to go. > 2. Ahmo, caah nicnequi niaz / Ahmo, ahmo nicnequi niaz. No, I don want to > go: > 3. Quén yeh ahmo, achá quema. Why not? Maybe yes. > 4. Quema. Yes > > > >> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 10:14:49 -0400 >> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >> To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com >> CC: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx; magnuspharao at gmail.com; >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> >> >> In the examples that you gave yesterday, you used the word "Xe" with >> yes-no questions. I'm not familiar with this word. Does it have a >> cognate in classical Nahuatl? >> >> Thank you, Tomas, >> >> Michael >> >> Quoting Tomas Amaya : >> >> > Hola Ximena, >> > >> > Cihuayolotl may mean woman's heart or female heart. In Spanish: >> > corazón de mujer o corazón femenino. Maybe your teacher referred to >> > "cihuayotl" which means femininity or "what is typical of a woman" >> > (Spanish: femineidad; "lo de la mujer"). >> > >> > >> > >> > There is another possibility: that your teacher was speaking >> > metaphorically (I do not know if pejoratively or not); if it is the >> > case, the meaning of "cihuayolotl" may be: "the one who being man has >> > the heart of a woman". Here, we could also make use of the possessive >> > : cihuayoleh (the one who has a female heart). >> > >> > >> > >> > The example can be extended in Cuetzalan-Nahuat: >> > >> > "Cihuayoleh" referred to a man "could" mean "homosexual", but its >> > first meaning is "a sensible man". "Oquichyoleh" ("who has a male >> > heart") "could" mean "lesbian", but principally: "a strong woman". >> > >> > Saludos/regards >> > >> > Tomas Amaya >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 >> > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> > From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx >> > To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com >> > CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > >> > >> > >> > I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a >> > nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from >> > Texcoco. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Ximena Gutierrez >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! >> > >> > >> > >> > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced "cuilonh", plural: >> > "cuilo'meh") to design men and women with gay sexual preference. >> > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. >> > Examples: >> > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be >> > homosexual, are there no women?) >> > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). >> > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ýn Pancho, in cuilon ýn >> > cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ... >> > is an homosexual!) >> > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our >> > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. >> > >> > Greetings >> > Tomas >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 >> >> From: magnuspharao at gmail.com >> >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> > >> > >> >> >> >> Hi Listeros >> >> >> >> I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos >> >> national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this >> >> translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones >> >> sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to >> >> Molina >> >> this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, >> >> receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first >> >> of >> >> all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in >> >> a >> >> human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard >> >> this >> >> word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for >> >> those interested >> >> http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) >> >> >> >> For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words >> >> you >> >> know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, >> >> homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they >> >> are >> >> used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community >> >> and >> >> region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone >> >> selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be >> >> used >> >> that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a >> >> blog >> >> post. >> >> >> >> Thanks beforehand! >> >> >> >> Magnus >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Magnus Pharao Hansen >> >> PhD. candidate >> >> Department of Anthropology >> >> >> >> Brown University >> >> 128 Hope St. >> >> Providence, RI 02906 >> >> >> >> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * >> >> US: 001 401 651 8413 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Nahuatl mailing list >> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nahuatl mailing list >> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nahuatl mailing list >> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> >> >> >                        > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Thu May 22 12:08:43 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 08:08:43 -0400 Subject: Manuscript withdrawn Message-ID: The Chimalpahin Codex which was scheduled to be sold yesterday at Christie's was withdrawn prior to the sale, and so remains in the hands of the British and Foreign Bible Society. -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 518-608-4522 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr Thu May 22 18:52:21 2014 From: budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr (Richard BUDELBERGER) Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 20:52:21 +0200 Subject: Manuscript withdrawn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Message du 22/05/14 14:09 > De : John Schwaller > A : nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Objet : [Nahuat-l] Manuscript withdrawn > > The Chimalpahin Codex which was scheduled to be sold yesterday at > Christie's was withdrawn prior to the sale, and so remains in the hands of > the British and Foreign Bible Society. Merci, Pr Schwaller, pour cette excellente nouvelle ; j’en étais malade, à l’idée que ce chef-d’œuvre puisse être perdu pour tous. 500 000+ $, hélas ! même ensemble, nous n’aurions pas pu. R. Budelberger. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu May 29 16:39:58 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 11:39:58 -0500 Subject: Chiapas Nahuatl article Message-ID: Dear listeros Does anyone have a pdf copy of this article: Navarrete Cáceres, C. A. 1975. Nueva información sobre la lengua náhuatl en Chiapas. In *Anales de Antropología* (Vol. 12, No. 1). If you do I would very much like to read it! best wishes, Magnus -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Fri May 30 12:15:48 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 08:15:48 -0400 Subject: Manuscript withdrawn: bound volumes with Ixtlilxochitl and Chimalpahin texts Message-ID: *From:* Gordon Whittaker *Date:* 28 May 2014 08:56:09 GMT+2 *To:* "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" , " aztlan at lists.famsi.org" *Subject:* *Manuscript withdrawn: bound volumes with Ixtlilxochitl and Chimalpahin texts* I'm sure many of us were waiting with bated breath to learn the fate of Bible Society MS 374, the official name of two bound volumes containing, among a number of other items, several manuscripts of texts by Ixtlilxochitl and Chimalpahin. This manuscript has, as John Schwaller reports, apparently been withdrawn from sale at Christie's in London. The texts by Chimalpahin, together with several of the minor documents bound with them, were published years ago in a beautiful and erudite two-volume edition by Susan Schroeder as the so-called Codex Chimalpahin, but they are much more than that. In an introduction to the latter edition Wayne Ruwet describes the contents of MS 374 in admirable form (apart from his minor confusion of Volume 1 with Volume 2). What will come as a surprise to many is that not just texts by Chimalpahin but also the historical works of Ixtlilxochitl are preserved in MS 374. These texts are at least a century older than the oldest copies consulted by Edmundo O'Gorman in preparation of his Ixtlilxochitl edition. Furthermore, several are at least partly in the hand of Ixtlilxochitl himself, as I have been able to determine after extensive study of the originals in England. A great part of the immense value of Ixtlilxochitl's works has to do with his various texts relating the history of pre-Spanish Central Mexico. These have up till now only been published on the basis of late copies, and the otherwise excellent O'Gorman edition has the additional disadvantage of being an attempt at a unitary edition combining many copies of considerably varying date and relationship, but without indicating which wording has been adopted from which copies. Nevertheless, O'Gorman's introductory studies, plus the supplementary documents published with them, represent a gigantic milestone in research on Ixtlilxochitl and his writings. I am now in the process of preparing a new edition of these pre-Spanish histories by Ixtlilxochitl, the first volume of which is already nearing completion. This new edition, with preliminary studies and a commentary, contains the texts as preserved in MS 374. It surely comes as a relief to all of us that MS 374 has been granted reprieve from potential sale to a private buyer. Christie's, however, which has acted very responsibly, had gone out of its way to ensure that specialist libraries, including several in the U.S. and Europe, were informed of the upcoming sale and had an opportunity to bid for the manuscript. Gordon Whittaker _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx Thu May 1 14:17:58 2014 From: cipactonal at yahoo.com.mx (Ignacio Silva) Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 07:17:58 -0700 Subject: Obituario Librado Silva Galeana Message-ID: El d?a 29 de abril de 2014 falleci? el maestro Librado Silva Galeana. Nacido en 1942 en la comunidad nahuahablante de Santa Ana Tlacotenco, Librado Silva Galeana fue hijo de Gregorio Silva Cervantes y de Margarita Galeana Mart?nez. Sus primeros estudios los curs? en su pueblo natal y en el de San Antonio Tec?mitl. Estudi? en la Escuela Normal Superior form?ndose como profesor de Ense?anza Elemental. Realiz? su Servicio Social en la ciudad de Oaxaca en donde conoci? a la que fuera, posteriormente, su esposa, Elpidia Elena Cruz D?az. Una an?cdota curiosa contaba el maestro Librado y es la siguiente: cuando estaban asignando los lugares a donde los nuevos profesores deber?an ir a cumplir su Servicio Social, a ?l le fue asignado San Luis Potos?, en una comunidad m?s o menos alejada de la capital; sin embargo, una compa?era suya de estudios, se enter? de que iba a ir a dicha comunidad y le pidi? que intercambiaran lugares ya que ella era de ese lugar; ?l accedi? y as? fue como lleg? a la capital de Oaxaca; ?de no haberlo hecho??, nos dec?a, ?jam?s hubiera conocido a su mam??. Elena y Librado vinieron a radicar a la ciudad de M?xico en donde procrearon tres hijos: Ignacio, Adriana y Gregorio. Un suceso lamentable lleg? a sus vidas el 2 de mayo de 1972 y fue que, yendo de Milpa Alta a la ciudad de M?xico, en el camino que va de Tlahuac a Xochimilco, fueron embestidos de frente por un cami?n de carga; de dicho accidente result? el fallecimiento de Gregorio Silva Galeana, hermano de Librado, quien estaba estudiando Medicina y contaba con 21 a?os. Librado result? con severos traumatismos que lo marcaron hasta el final de sus d?as. Este suceso cambi?, radicalmente, la vida de la pareja reci?n formada de Elena y Librado. Hacia 1974 conoci? en una conferencia al Dr. Miguel Le?n-Portilla; el trato fue constante hasta que hacia 1982 el Dr. Le?n-Portilla lo invit? a sumarse al Seminario de Cultura N?huatl, que en ese entonces sesionaba en la Torre I de Humanidades. Ah?, el maestro Librado Silva Galeana, desarroll? su inter?s por la lengua N?huatl, inter?s que lo llev? a dedicarse a escribir en esta lengua; tambi?n acometi? el trabajo de traducci?n de textos cl?sicos como los Huehuetlahtolli de Olmos y el manuscrito de Cantares Mexicanos; siempre al lado del Dr. Le?n-Portilla. Realiz? el trabajo de elaboraci?n del Diccionario del n?huatl en el espa?ol de M?xico, que fue coordinado por Carlos Montemayor, junto a Enrique Garc?a Escamilla y Enrique Garc?a Paniagua. El maestro Librado Silva recibi? el premio Nezahualcoyotl de Literatura en Lenguas Ind?genas en 1994; organiz? en muchas ocasiones los Encuentros de Hablantes de N?huatl, fue objeto de muchos reconocimientos y homenajes en vida por parte de amigos, compa?eros, familiares. Public? textos de creaci?n propia (Cozcacuahuco; In huey ohtli, In temazcalli) ?en antolog?as y revistas especializadas (Estudios de Cultura N?huatl). Fue miembro fundador de la entonces llamada Asociaci?n Nacional de Escritores en Lenguas Ind?genas, ahora Escritores en Lenguas Ind?genas A.C., creada en 1992. En el a?o de 2011, en diciembre, Elpidia Elena Cruz D?az, falleci?. El maestro Librado Silva Galeana se sumi? en una profunda depresi?n; nunca se pudo recuperar de la p?rdida de su esposa; ?l nos dec?a a sus hijos: ?Mi madre me dio la vida, su mam? se ha encargado de prolong?rmela?. Y es que durante 40 a?os, el maestro Librado se vio aquejado de osteomielitis en la pierna derecha, consecuencia del accidente descrito antes y que lo llevaba al quir?fano al menos dos veces por a?o. Elena y Librado siempre andaban juntos, a donde quiera que invitaran a mi padre ah? llevaba a mi madre; a la muerte de ella, mi padre se volvi? callado, una enorme tristeza lo invadi?; cuando hablaba de ella nunca dejaba de derramar l?grimas; mi madre se adelant?; ahora ?l ha alcanzado a la mujer que siempre extra??. Seguir?n andando juntos. ? Ignacio Silva Cruz. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Sat May 3 16:21:29 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? Message-ID: Hi Listeros I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first of all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for those interested http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be used that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a blog post. Thanks beforehand! Magnus -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Mon May 5 21:41:28 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 16:41:28 -0500 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced ?cuilonh?, plural: ?cuilo?meh?) to design men and women with gay sexual preference. It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. Examples: 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be homosexual, are there no women?) 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ?n Pancho, in cuilon ?n cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ? is an homosexual!) 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. Greetings Tomas > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > Hi Listeros > > I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos > national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this > translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones > sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina > this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, > receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first of > all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a > human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this > word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for > those interested > http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) > > For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you > know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, > homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are > used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and > region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone > selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be used > that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a blog > post. > > Thanks beforehand! > > Magnus > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Tue May 6 00:58:06 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 20:58:06 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: Colleagues, The three volumes of Chimalpahin and other Nahuatl works which have been held by the British and Foreign Bible Society is being put on sale at Christies later this month. I have been in contact with one of three private foundations which are working hard to see that this jewel remains available to scholars. http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/books-manuscripts/the-codex-chimalpahin-and-historical-works-by-5791577-details.aspx -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 518-608-4522 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx Tue May 6 03:27:14 2014 From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx (=?UTF-8?Q?Ximena_Guti=C3=A9rrez_Vasques?=) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from Texcoco. Regards, Ximena Gutierrez On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya wrote: > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! > > > > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced ?cuilonh?, plural: > ?cuilo?meh?) to design men and women with gay sexual preference. > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. > Examples: > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be homosexual, > are there no women?) > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ?n Pancho, in cuilon ?n cuitazoquit > (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ? is an homosexual!) > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. > > Greetings > Tomas > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 > > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > > > Hi Listeros > > > > I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos > > national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this > > translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones > > sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina > > this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, > > receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first > of > > all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a > > human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this > > word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for > > those interested > > > http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf > ) > > > > For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you > > know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, > > homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are > > used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and > > region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone > > selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be > used > > that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a > blog > > post. > > > > Thanks beforehand! > > > > Magnus > > > > > > -- > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > PhD. candidate > > Department of Anthropology > > > > Brown University > > 128 Hope St. > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Tue May 6 04:49:47 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 23:49:47 -0500 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hola Ximena, Cihuayolotl may mean woman's heart or female heart. In Spanish: coraz?n de mujer o coraz?n femenino. Maybe your teacher referred to ?cihuayotl? which means femininity or ?what is typical of a woman? (Spanish: femineidad; ?lo de la mujer?). There is another possibility: that your teacher was speaking metaphorically (I do not know if pejoratively or not); if it is the case, the meaning of ?cihuayolotl? may be: ?the one who being man has the heart of a woman?. Here, we could also make use of the possessive : cihuayoleh (the one who has a female heart). The example can be extended in Cuetzalan-Nahuat: ?Cihuayoleh? referred to a man ?could? mean ?homosexual?, but its first meaning is ?a sensible man?. ?Oquichyoleh? (?who has a male heart?) ?could? mean ?lesbian?, but principally: ?a strong woman?. Saludos/regards Tomas Amaya Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from Texcoco. Regards, Ximena Gutierrez On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya wrote: Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced ?cuilonh?, plural: ?cuilo?meh?) to design men and women with gay sexual preference. It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. Examples: 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be homosexual, are there no women?) 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ?n Pancho, in cuilon ?n cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ? is an homosexual!) 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. Greetings Tomas > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > Hi Listeros > > I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos > national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this > translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones > sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina > this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, > receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first of > all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a > human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this > word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for > those interested > http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) > > For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you > know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, > homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are > used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and > region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone > selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be used > that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a blog > post. > > Thanks beforehand! > > Magnus > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jdanahuatl at gmail.com Tue May 6 12:41:18 2014 From: jdanahuatl at gmail.com (Jonathan Amith) Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 08:41:18 -0400 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In general in Oapan and Balsas one can say sihsiwa:tl for effeminate man, the reduplication meaning 'like' the base noun. One can also say i:sihsiwa:w but this refers to a 'wife-like partner' (I heard it in reference to a young man of 13 or 14 who married a 14 or 15 year old girl, the implication was that he really didn't know what to do with a woman because they were both too young. tla:kas?siw?:tl effeminate man (recipr. reduplicated with short vowel, or refl. with oblique: n?:ma:k?wah or -wa:n n?:ma:k?wa) to be lesbians; to have a lesbian relationship with (note that this is for nomahma:kowah) suwa:tla:katl butch lesbian kuwtepol lesbian (lit., 'short penis') tla:kaneki to want a man (as a sexual partner, usually in reference to a "loose woman"[S] but may also be used in reference to a man aleged to be homosexual); to be horney (for a man) kukwilchi:ltsi:n (Ameyaltepec) kwikwichi:ltsi:n (Oapan) homosexual (derogatory, faggot) On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 11:27 PM, Ximena Guti?rrez Vasques < ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx> wrote: > I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a nahuatl > teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from Texcoco. > > > Regards, > > > Ximena Gutierrez > > > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya > wrote: > > > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! > > > > > > > > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced ?cuilonh?, plural: > > ?cuilo?meh?) to design men and women with gay sexual preference. > > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. > > Examples: > > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be homosexual, > > are there no women?) > > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). > > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ?n Pancho, in cuilon ?n cuitazoquit > > (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ? is an homosexual!) > > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our > > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. > > > > Greetings > > Tomas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 > > > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com > > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > > > > > Hi Listeros > > > > > > I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos > > > national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this > > > translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones > > > sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to > Molina > > > this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, > > > receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first > > of > > > all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in > a > > > human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard > this > > > word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for > > > those interested > > > > > > http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf > > ) > > > > > > For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you > > > know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, > > > homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are > > > used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community > and > > > region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone > > > selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be > > used > > > that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a > > blog > > > post. > > > > > > Thanks beforehand! > > > > > > Magnus > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Magnus Pharao Hansen > > > PhD. candidate > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > Brown University > > > 128 Hope St. > > > Providence, RI 02906 > > > > > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > > > US: 001 401 651 8413 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue May 6 14:14:49 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 10:14:49 -0400 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the examples that you gave yesterday, you used the word "Xe" with yes-no questions. I'm not familiar with this word. Does it have a cognate in classical Nahuatl? Thank you, Tomas, Michael Quoting Tomas Amaya : > Hola Ximena, > > Cihuayolotl may mean woman's heart or female heart. In Spanish: > coraz?n de mujer o coraz?n femenino. Maybe your teacher referred to > "cihuayotl" which means femininity or "what is typical of a woman" > (Spanish: femineidad; "lo de la mujer"). > > > > There is another possibility: that your teacher was speaking > metaphorically (I do not know if pejoratively or not); if it is the > case, the meaning of "cihuayolotl" may be: "the one who being man has > the heart of a woman". Here, we could also make use of the possessive > : cihuayoleh (the one who has a female heart). > > > > The example can be extended in Cuetzalan-Nahuat: > > "Cihuayoleh" referred to a man "could" mean "homosexual", but its > first meaning is "a sensible man". "Oquichyoleh" ("who has a male > heart") "could" mean "lesbian", but principally: "a strong woman". > > Saludos/regards > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx > To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com > CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a > nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from > Texcoco. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Ximena Gutierrez > > > > > > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya wrote: > > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! > > > > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced "cuilonh", plural: > "cuilo'meh") to design men and women with gay sexual preference. > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. > Examples: > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be > homosexual, are there no women?) > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ?n Pancho, in cuilon ?n > cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ... > is an homosexual!) > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. > > Greetings > Tomas > > > > > > >> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 >> From: magnuspharao at gmail.com >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > >> >> Hi Listeros >> >> I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos >> national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this >> translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones >> sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina >> this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, >> receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first of >> all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a >> human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this >> word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for >> those interested >> http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) >> >> For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you >> know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, >> homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are >> used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and >> region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone >> selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be used >> that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a blog >> post. >> >> Thanks beforehand! >> >> Magnus >> >> >> -- >> Magnus Pharao Hansen >> PhD. candidate >> Department of Anthropology >> >> Brown University >> 128 Hope St. >> Providence, RI 02906 >> >> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * >> US: 001 401 651 8413 >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Wed May 7 17:55:57 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 12:55:57 -0500 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: <20140506101449.zuevmylkgscggwsw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Michael This ?xe? belongs to the ?question - particles?. Other particles of the same kind are: ?xa?, ?xoh?, ?cox? Particles that I find related hereto are ?cuix? and ?azo? in classical nahuatl. Here their meaning (approximately) in English and Spanish: 1) (a)x?: maybe, then..?; ser? que ?, entonces?? Example: Xa ticnequi tiaz cineco. Eng. Do you, maybe, want to to go to the movies? Then, do you want to go to movies? Sp. ?Ser? que quieres ir al cine? ?Quieres ir al cine, tal vez? 2) Xoh: really??; ?De veras ? Example: Xoh ticnequi tiaz cineco. Eng: Do you really want to go to the movies? Sp.: ?De veras quieres ir al cine? 3) Xe: Tell me, is it true that; a poco ? Exemple: Xe ticnequi tiaz cineco. Eng.: Tell me, is it true that you want to go to the movies (I supposed that you do not like it) Sp.: A poco (de veras) quieres ir al cine. 4) Cox: particle to question; part?cula para preguntar. Example: cox ticnequi tiaz cineco. Eng.: Do yo want to go to the movies? Sp. ?Quieres ir al cine? For better understanding, I think its important to mention the possible answers: 1. Quema nicnequi niaz.Yes, I want to go. 2. Ahmo, caah nicnequi niaz / Ahmo, ahmo nicnequi niaz. No, I don want to go: 3. Qu?n yeh ahmo, ach? quema. Why not? Maybe yes. 4. Quema. Yes > Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 10:14:49 -0400 > From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com > CC: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx; magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > > In the examples that you gave yesterday, you used the word "Xe" with > yes-no questions. I'm not familiar with this word. Does it have a > cognate in classical Nahuatl? > > Thank you, Tomas, > > Michael > > Quoting Tomas Amaya : > > > Hola Ximena, > > > > Cihuayolotl may mean woman's heart or female heart. In Spanish: > > coraz?n de mujer o coraz?n femenino. Maybe your teacher referred to > > "cihuayotl" which means femininity or "what is typical of a woman" > > (Spanish: femineidad; "lo de la mujer"). > > > > > > > > There is another possibility: that your teacher was speaking > > metaphorically (I do not know if pejoratively or not); if it is the > > case, the meaning of "cihuayolotl" may be: "the one who being man has > > the heart of a woman". Here, we could also make use of the possessive > > : cihuayoleh (the one who has a female heart). > > > > > > > > The example can be extended in Cuetzalan-Nahuat: > > > > "Cihuayoleh" referred to a man "could" mean "homosexual", but its > > first meaning is "a sensible man". "Oquichyoleh" ("who has a male > > heart") "could" mean "lesbian", but principally: "a strong woman". > > > > Saludos/regards > > > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx > > To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com > > CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > > > > > > I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a > > nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from > > Texcoco. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Ximena Gutierrez > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya wrote: > > > > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! > > > > > > > > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced "cuilonh", plural: > > "cuilo'meh") to design men and women with gay sexual preference. > > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. > > Examples: > > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be > > homosexual, are there no women?) > > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). > > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ?n Pancho, in cuilon ?n > > cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ... > > is an homosexual!) > > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our > > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. > > > > Greetings > > Tomas > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 > >> From: magnuspharao at gmail.com > >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? > > > > > >> > >> Hi Listeros > >> > >> I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos > >> national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this > >> translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones > >> sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to Molina > >> this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, > >> receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first of > >> all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in a > >> human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard this > >> word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for > >> those interested > >> http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) > >> > >> For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words you > >> know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, > >> homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they are > >> used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community and > >> region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone > >> selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be used > >> that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a blog > >> post. > >> > >> Thanks beforehand! > >> > >> Magnus > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Magnus Pharao Hansen > >> PhD. candidate > >> Department of Anthropology > >> > >> Brown University > >> 128 Hope St. > >> Providence, RI 02906 > >> > >> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > >> US: 001 401 651 8413 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Sat May 17 02:46:21 2014 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero) Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:46:21 +0800 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre Message-ID: Hola Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema Seg?n yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . Espero su sabia respuesta Gracias Roberto Romero Gutierrez _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Sat May 17 03:16:46 2014 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero) Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 11:16:46 +0800 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hola Uno de los vocablos de origen nahuatl que se usan para nombrar a los hombres homosexuales cuya funci?n en su relaci?n es ser los penetrados, es la palabra Mayate o ya deformado Mayaton, que viene de Mayatli La palabra Mayate la he escuchado y se usa lo mismo en colonias populares de la ciudad de M?xico que en ciudades del Estado de Mexico y en peque?os pueblos de la regi?n Baj?o. La razon de usar la palabra Mayate para los entendidos es que con esa misma palabra se nombra a escarabajos, insectos cuya ?nica defensa es "Empinar la cola" "Parar la cola" " Presentan La cola" . Por analog?a se dice que es lo que hacen los hombres homosexuales para en la copula poder ser penetrados. "Se empinan", "Paran la cola" o ya hispanizado Presentan el culo . Sin homofobia alguna mi peque?a contribuci?n. Espero sea de utilidad Roberto Romero Gutierrez 2014-05-08 1:55 GMT+08:00, Tomas Amaya : > Hi, Michael > > This ?xe? belongs to the ?question - particles?. Other particles of the same > kind are: ?xa?, ?xoh?, ?cox? > Particles that I find related hereto are ?cuix? and ?azo? in classical > nahuatl. > Here their meaning (approximately) in English and Spanish: > 1) > (a)x?: maybe, then..?; ser? que ?, entonces?? > Example: Xa ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng. Do you, maybe, want to to go to the movies? Then, do you want to go to > movies? > Sp. ?Ser? que quieres ir al cine? ?Quieres ir al cine, tal vez? > 2) > Xoh: really??; ?De veras ? > Example: Xoh ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng: Do you really want to go to the movies? > Sp.: ?De veras quieres ir al cine? > 3) > Xe: Tell me, is it true that; a poco ? > Exemple: Xe ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng.: Tell me, is it true that you want to go to the movies (I supposed that > you do not like it) > Sp.: A poco (de veras) quieres ir al cine. > 4) > Cox: particle to question; part?cula para preguntar. > Example: cox ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng.: Do yo want to go to the movies? > Sp. ?Quieres ir al cine? > > For better understanding, I think its important to mention the possible > answers: > 1. Quema nicnequi niaz.Yes, I want to go. > 2. Ahmo, caah nicnequi niaz / Ahmo, ahmo nicnequi niaz. No, I don want to > go: > 3. Qu?n yeh ahmo, ach? quema. Why not? Maybe yes. > 4. Quema. Yes > > > >> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 10:14:49 -0400 >> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >> To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com >> CC: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx; magnuspharao at gmail.com; >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> >> >> In the examples that you gave yesterday, you used the word "Xe" with >> yes-no questions. I'm not familiar with this word. Does it have a >> cognate in classical Nahuatl? >> >> Thank you, Tomas, >> >> Michael >> >> Quoting Tomas Amaya : >> >> > Hola Ximena, >> > >> > Cihuayolotl may mean woman's heart or female heart. In Spanish: >> > coraz?n de mujer o coraz?n femenino. Maybe your teacher referred to >> > "cihuayotl" which means femininity or "what is typical of a woman" >> > (Spanish: femineidad; "lo de la mujer"). >> > >> > >> > >> > There is another possibility: that your teacher was speaking >> > metaphorically (I do not know if pejoratively or not); if it is the >> > case, the meaning of "cihuayolotl" may be: "the one who being man has >> > the heart of a woman". Here, we could also make use of the possessive >> > : cihuayoleh (the one who has a female heart). >> > >> > >> > >> > The example can be extended in Cuetzalan-Nahuat: >> > >> > "Cihuayoleh" referred to a man "could" mean "homosexual", but its >> > first meaning is "a sensible man". "Oquichyoleh" ("who has a male >> > heart") "could" mean "lesbian", but principally: "a strong woman". >> > >> > Saludos/regards >> > >> > Tomas Amaya >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 >> > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> > From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx >> > To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com >> > CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > >> > >> > >> > I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a >> > nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from >> > Texcoco. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Ximena Gutierrez >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! >> > >> > >> > >> > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced "cuilonh", plural: >> > "cuilo'meh") to design men and women with gay sexual preference. >> > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. >> > Examples: >> > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be >> > homosexual, are there no women?) >> > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). >> > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ?n Pancho, in cuilon ?n >> > cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ... >> > is an homosexual!) >> > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our >> > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. >> > >> > Greetings >> > Tomas >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 >> >> From: magnuspharao at gmail.com >> >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> > >> > >> >> >> >> Hi Listeros >> >> >> >> I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos >> >> national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this >> >> translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones >> >> sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to >> >> Molina >> >> this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, >> >> receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first >> >> of >> >> all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in >> >> a >> >> human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard >> >> this >> >> word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for >> >> those interested >> >> http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) >> >> >> >> For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words >> >> you >> >> know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, >> >> homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they >> >> are >> >> used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community >> >> and >> >> region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone >> >> selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be >> >> used >> >> that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a >> >> blog >> >> post. >> >> >> >> Thanks beforehand! >> >> >> >> Magnus >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Magnus Pharao Hansen >> >> PhD. candidate >> >> Department of Anthropology >> >> >> >> Brown University >> >> 128 Hope St. >> >> Providence, RI 02906 >> >> >> >> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * >> >> US: 001 401 651 8413 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Nahuatl mailing list >> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nahuatl mailing list >> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nahuatl mailing list >> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat May 17 14:48:13 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) Michael Quoting Roberto Romero : > Hola > > Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema > > Seg?n yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de > liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli > > Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre > > Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . > > Espero su sabia respuesta > > Gracias > Roberto Romero Gutierrez > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun May 18 13:00:10 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 09:00:10 -0400 Subject: conejo y abuela In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know how cihtli 'hare' and cihtli 'grandmother' became homophones? Is this a case of accidental harmony owing to sound changes. I notice in Karttunen's dictionary that there is a dialectal term for 'grandmother' in the form ciztli. tlazohcamati, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Sun May 18 12:35:00 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 07:35:00 -0500 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: <20140517104813.pi89rhyeio0sgcc4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Saludos Roberto, saludos a todos. Escudo de liebre se dice: cihchimalli (hare shield) Sagrado queda como teoh a partir de teoyouh. Resultado teohcihchimalli. Pero viene la pregunta qui?n o qu? es lo sagrado: la liebre o el escudo. Seg?n tu pregunta lo sagrado es el escudo, entonces es mejor decir: Cihteohchimalli (forzando el ingl?s: hare god-shield, en alem?n: Hasengottesschild) Un ejemplo: si dices teohtlahtolamoxtli estar?s diciendo: libro de la palabra divina; pero si escribes teohamoxtlahtolli, el significado ser?: palabra del libro sagrado. T?, al escribir Teuchimalcitli est?s diciendo: "liebre del escudo sagrado" es decir una liebre que porta un escudo sagrado o una liebre que (a lo mejor) est? pintada en un escudo sagrado. Otra forma de decir lo que preguntas es: cihtli iteochimal, i.e. : el escudo sagrado de la liebre. Ahora bien, por tratarse de un lugar, lo mejor ser?a decir: Cihteochimallan; a no ser que te refieras a los habitantes, personas que portan divinos escudos de liebre, entonces tendr?s: Cihteochimalhuacan. Si la palabra no se refiere a liebre sino a abuela, pues hay que cambiar todo. Pero pensemos que hablamos de una liebre. Nuevamente saludos Tomas Amaya > Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 > From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre > > Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) > > > > Michael > > > Quoting Roberto Romero : > > > Hola > > > > Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema > > > > Seg?n yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de > > liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli > > > > Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre > > > > Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . > > > > Espero su sabia respuesta > > > > Gracias > > Roberto Romero Gutierrez > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun May 18 14:24:09 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:24:09 -0400 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Se supone que Roberto quiere formar un neologismo, ?verdad?. Bueno, no creo que pueda haber una h metida (cihteoHchimalli). Teoyoh ser?a sagrado, i.e., ?lleno o cubierto de una divinidad?, pero el agentivo s?lo puede combinarse como teoyohca-. As? que creo que lo que tendr?amos es chi(tli) + teo(tl) + chimalli = cihteochimalli. John On May 18, 2014, at 8:35, Tomas Amaya wrote: > Saludos Roberto, saludos a todos. > > Escudo de liebre se dice: cihchimalli (hare shield) > > Sagrado queda como teoh a partir de teoyouh. > > Resultado teohcihchimalli. > > Pero viene la pregunta qui?n o qu? es lo sagrado: la liebre o el escudo. Seg?n tu pregunta lo sagrado es el escudo, entonces es mejor decir: Cihteohchimalli (forzando el ingl?s: hare god-shield, en alem?n: Hasengottesschild) > > Un ejemplo: si dices teohtlahtolamoxtli estar?s diciendo: libro de la palabra divina; pero si escribes teohamoxtlahtolli, el significado ser?: palabra del libro sagrado. > > > > T?, al escribir Teuchimalcitli est?s diciendo: "liebre del escudo sagrado" es decir una liebre que porta un escudo sagrado o una liebre que (a lo mejor) est? pintada en un escudo sagrado. > > Otra forma de decir lo que preguntas es: cihtli iteochimal, i.e. : el escudo sagrado de la liebre. > > Ahora bien, por tratarse de un lugar, lo mejor ser?a decir: Cihteochimallan; a no ser que te refieras a los habitantes, personas que portan divinos escudos de liebre, entonces tendr?s: Cihteochimalhuacan. > > > > Si la palabra no se refiere a liebre sino a abuela, pues hay que cambiar todo. Pero pensemos que hablamos de una liebre. > > > > Nuevamente saludos > > > > Tomas Amaya > > >> Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 >> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre >> >> Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> Quoting Roberto Romero : >> >>> Hola >>> >>> Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema >>> >>> Seg?n yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de >>> liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli >>> >>> Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre >>> >>> Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . >>> >>> Espero su sabia respuesta >>> >>> Gracias >>> Roberto Romero Gutierrez >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun May 18 14:17:57 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:17:57 -0400 Subject: conejo y abuela In-Reply-To: <20140518090010.64nbsq3x4wso0ock@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I meant to say "accidental homophony" not "accidental harmony". > :-) Quoting Michael McCafferty : > Does anyone know how cihtli 'hare' and cihtli 'grandmother' became > homophones? Is this a case of accidental harmony owing to sound > changes. I notice in Karttunen's dictionary that there is a dialectal > term for 'grandmother' in the form ciztli. > > tlazohcamati, > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Sun May 18 16:59:36 2014 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero) Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 00:59:36 +0800 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: <5C7151B9-22DE-4473-99D9-B244EE5FAF8B@me.com> Message-ID: Gracias a todos por sus respuestas Efectivamente en la pregunta no tiene nada que ver la abuela Esa abuela quede repente surge en los mitos de la religion mesoamericana donde era frecuente que la abuela resultara al final la hija o que fueran la misma cosa. Bueno eso pasa no s?lo en la religi?n mesoamericana tambi?n ocurre tambi?n en otras religiones aun en uso. De nuevo gracias Roberto Romero Gutierrez El 18/5/14, John Sullivan escribi?: > Se supone que Roberto quiere formar un neologismo, ?verdad?. Bueno, no creo > que pueda haber una h metida (cihteoHchimalli). Teoyoh ser?a sagrado, i.e., > ?lleno o cubierto de una divinidad?, pero el agentivo s?lo puede combinarse > como teoyohca-. As? que creo que lo que tendr?amos es chi(tli) + teo(tl) + > chimalli = cihteochimalli. > John > > On May 18, 2014, at 8:35, Tomas Amaya wrote: > >> Saludos Roberto, saludos a todos. >> >> Escudo de liebre se dice: cihchimalli (hare shield) >> >> Sagrado queda como teoh a partir de teoyouh. >> >> Resultado teohcihchimalli. >> >> Pero viene la pregunta qui?n o qu? es lo sagrado: la liebre o el escudo. >> Seg?n tu pregunta lo sagrado es el escudo, entonces es mejor decir: >> Cihteohchimalli (forzando el ingl?s: hare god-shield, en alem?n: >> Hasengottesschild) >> >> Un ejemplo: si dices teohtlahtolamoxtli estar?s diciendo: libro de la >> palabra divina; pero si escribes teohamoxtlahtolli, el significado ser?: >> palabra del libro sagrado. >> >> >> >> T?, al escribir Teuchimalcitli est?s diciendo: "liebre del escudo sagrado" >> es decir una liebre que porta un escudo sagrado o una liebre que (a lo >> mejor) est? pintada en un escudo sagrado. >> >> Otra forma de decir lo que preguntas es: cihtli iteochimal, i.e. : el >> escudo sagrado de la liebre. >> >> Ahora bien, por tratarse de un lugar, lo mejor ser?a decir: >> Cihteochimallan; a no ser que te refieras a los habitantes, personas que >> portan divinos escudos de liebre, entonces tendr?s: Cihteochimalhuacan. >> >> >> >> >> Si la palabra no se refiere a liebre sino a abuela, pues hay que cambiar >> todo. Pero pensemos que hablamos de una liebre. >> >> >> >> Nuevamente saludos >> >> >> >> Tomas Amaya >> >> >>> Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 >>> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >>> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre >>> >>> Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> Quoting Roberto Romero : >>> >>>> Hola >>>> >>>> Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema >>>> >>>> Seg?n yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de >>>> liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli >>>> >>>> Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre >>>> >>>> Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . >>>> >>>> Espero su sabia respuesta >>>> >>>> Gracias >>>> Roberto Romero Gutierrez >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Sun May 18 17:15:41 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 12:15:41 -0500 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: <5C7151B9-22DE-4473-99D9-B244EE5FAF8B@me.com> Message-ID: Hola John, tocnihuan?: De acuerdo en principio. Por supuesto que est? bien lo de cihteochimalli. El problema es que la o de teo es una o larga y yo quise ilustrarle a Roberto la (mi) pronunciaci?n. Mi h no es una hache muy aspirada, fuerte casi, j espa?ola. Quise m?s bien indicar esa "prolongaci?n oscura de la o". Algunos usan "uh" con en tecuhtli o necuhtli. Ese "uh" que a veces se vuelve semiconsonante como yauh de ir, que algunos escriben youi. Es el problema de usar un alfabeto que no puede cubrir todos los sonidos del nahuatl. Aunque es mejor, pienso yo, seguir us?ndolo. Si no, tendriamos para cada regi?n o pueblo la necesidad de hacer un alfabeto a la medida. Esto traer?a como consecuencia una mayor fragmentaci?n del nahuatl y los textos de los siglos xvi y xvii seguir?an impenetrables para ellos. Es mejor as?. Cada quien le dar? el matiz de pronunciaci?n de su regi?n pero todos entender?n la palabra escrita. Muy bien John, y ojal? que la pr?xima vez que vengas a Puebla pueda saludarte personalmente. Tomas Amaya > From: idiez at me.com > Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:24:09 -0400 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre > > Se supone que Roberto quiere formar un neologismo, ?verdad?. Bueno, no creo que pueda haber una h metida (cihteoHchimalli). Teoyoh ser?a sagrado, i.e., ?lleno o cubierto de una divinidad?, pero el agentivo s?lo puede combinarse como teoyohca-. As? que creo que lo que tendr?amos es chi(tli) + teo(tl) + chimalli = cihteochimalli. > John > > On May 18, 2014, at 8:35, Tomas Amaya wrote: > > > Saludos Roberto, saludos a todos. > > > > Escudo de liebre se dice: cihchimalli (hare shield) > > > > Sagrado queda como teoh a partir de teoyouh. > > > > Resultado teohcihchimalli. > > > > Pero viene la pregunta qui?n o qu? es lo sagrado: la liebre o el escudo. Seg?n tu pregunta lo sagrado es el escudo, entonces es mejor decir: Cihteohchimalli (forzando el ingl?s: hare god-shield, en alem?n: Hasengottesschild) > > > > Un ejemplo: si dices teohtlahtolamoxtli estar?s diciendo: libro de la palabra divina; pero si escribes teohamoxtlahtolli, el significado ser?: palabra del libro sagrado. > > > > > > > > T?, al escribir Teuchimalcitli est?s diciendo: "liebre del escudo sagrado" es decir una liebre que porta un escudo sagrado o una liebre que (a lo mejor) est? pintada en un escudo sagrado. > > > > Otra forma de decir lo que preguntas es: cihtli iteochimal, i.e. : el escudo sagrado de la liebre. > > > > Ahora bien, por tratarse de un lugar, lo mejor ser?a decir: Cihteochimallan; a no ser que te refieras a los habitantes, personas que portan divinos escudos de liebre, entonces tendr?s: Cihteochimalhuacan. > > > > > > > > Si la palabra no se refiere a liebre sino a abuela, pues hay que cambiar todo. Pero pensemos que hablamos de una liebre. > > > > > > > > Nuevamente saludos > > > > > > > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > >> Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 > >> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre > >> > >> Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> > >> Quoting Roberto Romero : > >> > >>> Hola > >>> > >>> Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema > >>> > >>> Seg?n yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de > >>> liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli > >>> > >>> Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre > >>> > >>> Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . > >>> > >>> Espero su sabia respuesta > >>> > >>> Gracias > >>> Roberto Romero Gutierrez > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Nahuatl mailing list > >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon May 19 00:30:43 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 20:30:43 -0400 Subject: Divno escudo de liebre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Notequixpoh, Me alegro mucho saber que estamos de acuerdo con respecto a la necesidad de un ortograf?a que no s?lo permita la comunicaci?n entre variantes actuales, sino la posibilidad de leer las obras antiguas redactadas en escritura alfab?tica. De hecho, las primeras convenciones para /w/ y /kw/ al final de s?laba eran -hu y -cu o -cuh, respectivamente. Pero, como dichas convenciones iniciales daban lugar a confusiones, ya que podr?an interpretarse como una s?laba en vez de una consonante (v?ase el caso de tecuhtli, que hasta hoy d?as se interpreta err?neamente como tres s?labas), se reemplazaron dichas convenciones por -uh y -uc. Voy a estar en Puebla en octubre, y nos ponemos de acuerdo. Un abrazo, John On May 18, 2014, at 13:15, Tomas Amaya wrote: > Hola John, tocnihuan?: > De acuerdo en principio. Por supuesto que est? bien lo de cihteochimalli. El problema es que la o de teo es una o larga y yo quise ilustrarle a Roberto la (mi) pronunciaci?n. Mi h no es una hache muy aspirada, fuerte casi, j espa?ola. Quise m?s bien indicar esa "prolongaci?n oscura de la o". Algunos usan "uh" con en tecuhtli o necuhtli. Ese "uh" que a veces se vuelve semiconsonante como yauh de ir, que algunos escriben youi. Es el problema de usar un alfabeto que no puede cubrir todos los sonidos del nahuatl. Aunque es mejor, pienso yo, seguir us?ndolo. Si no, tendriamos para cada regi?n o pueblo la necesidad de hacer un alfabeto a la medida. Esto traer?a como consecuencia una mayor fragmentaci?n del nahuatl y los textos de los siglos xvi y xvii seguir?an impenetrables para ellos. Es mejor as?. Cada quien le dar? el matiz de pronunciaci?n de su regi?n pero todos entender?n la palabra escrita. Muy bien John, y ojal? que la pr?xima vez que vengas a Puebla pueda saludarte personalmente. > > Tomas Amaya > > > From: idiez at me.com > > Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:24:09 -0400 > > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre > > > > Se supone que Roberto quiere formar un neologismo, ?verdad?. Bueno, no creo que pueda haber una h metida (cihteoHchimalli). Teoyoh ser?a sagrado, i.e., ?lleno o cubierto de una divinidad?, pero el agentivo s?lo puede combinarse como teoyohca-. As? que creo que lo que tendr?amos es chi(tli) + teo(tl) + chimalli = cihteochimalli. > > John > > > > On May 18, 2014, at 8:35, Tomas Amaya wrote: > > > > > Saludos Roberto, saludos a todos. > > > > > > Escudo de liebre se dice: cihchimalli (hare shield) > > > > > > Sagrado queda como teoh a partir de teoyouh. > > > > > > Resultado teohcihchimalli. > > > > > > Pero viene la pregunta qui?n o qu? es lo sagrado: la liebre o el escudo. Seg?n tu pregunta lo sagrado es el escudo, entonces es mejor decir: Cihteohchimalli (forzando el ingl?s: hare god-shield, en alem?n: Hasengottesschild) > > > > > > Un ejemplo: si dices teohtlahtolamoxtli estar?s diciendo: libro de la palabra divina; pero si escribes teohamoxtlahtolli, el significado ser?: palabra del libro sagrado. > > > > > > > > > > > > T?, al escribir Teuchimalcitli est?s diciendo: "liebre del escudo sagrado" es decir una liebre que porta un escudo sagrado o una liebre que (a lo mejor) est? pintada en un escudo sagrado. > > > > > > Otra forma de decir lo que preguntas es: cihtli iteochimal, i.e. : el escudo sagrado de la liebre. > > > > > > Ahora bien, por tratarse de un lugar, lo mejor ser?a decir: Cihteochimallan; a no ser que te refieras a los habitantes, personas que portan divinos escudos de liebre, entonces tendr?s: Cihteochimalhuacan. > > > > > > > > > > > > Si la palabra no se refiere a liebre sino a abuela, pues hay que cambiar todo. Pero pensemos que hablamos de una liebre. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nuevamente saludos > > > > > > > > > > > > Tomas Amaya > > > > > > > > >> Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 10:48:13 -0400 > > >> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Divno escudo de liebre > > >> > > >> Estoy de acuerdo, Roberto...a menos que quihtoznequi -abuela. ;-) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Michael > > >> > > >> > > >> Quoting Roberto Romero : > > >> > > >>> Hola > > >>> > > >>> Les pido su generosa ayuda en este tema > > >>> > > >>> Seg?n yo el nombre para un lugar qque se llame " Divino escudo de > > >>> liebre" se escribe: Teuchimalcitli > > >>> > > >>> Formandol de Teu=Dios Chimal= Escudo y Citli= Liebre > > >>> > > >>> Estoy en lo correcto o estoy construyendo mal el nombre . > > >>> > > >>> Espero su sabia respuesta > > >>> > > >>> Gracias > > >>> Roberto Romero Gutierrez > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Nahuatl mailing list > > >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Nahuatl mailing list > > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nahuatl mailing list > > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From wenakuo at yahoo.com Wed May 21 16:41:34 2014 From: wenakuo at yahoo.com (David Young) Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 09:41:34 -0700 Subject: "Gay" in Nahuatl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I feel compelled to respond to your inquiry. ? A number of years ago I asked one of the elders of the community from Mexico City to tell me about men and women that were gay and lesbian. ?He said that there were communities where gay men lived and communities where lesbian women lived in precolumbian times. ?You had to be an adult to live in these communities. ?The men were referred to as papalotlacatl and the women were yaocihuatl. ?They were communities of artisans in the case of men and warrior women in the case of the women. In many of the Indigenous communities in North America, there are specific words for people that were gender different. ?In some cases, there was more than one gender recognized by the communities. ?In many communities those that were gender different were revered and held special roles within the community. ?With the coming of the Catholic priests, these individuals and the roles that they played became hidden to keep these individuals safe from persecution by the Christians. ?The Pueblos, for example, would not talk about their gender different relatives. ?The Apache and Navajo held special places in particular ceremonies for the naadle, recognizing four genders. ?Many of these roles have been lost over time, the persecution of Christians and the advent of gay liberation that has a "recognize ME because I'm gay" attitude. ?The gay movement is in stark contrast to Indigenous notions of humility and recognized role assignment within the community. ?The gay movement has focused on sex rather than community role. When I lived in Veracruz, Mexico, in 1979, I became familiar with the term Mayate. ?In Aztlan (the US southwest) the term means "black person" and it can be pejorative. ?In Mexico, it referred to a male penetrative partner in a "homosexual" relationship. ?Let me qualify this, much to the chagrin of Mexicanos I imagine, by saying that there is a distinction between what straight men regard as "gay" in the US and what is practiced in Mexico. ?My experience is that straight men in Mexico will engage in sexual behavior with other men more readily than in the US. ?The "straight" Mexicano men that engage in sex with "gay" men in Mexico in an insertive, active, masculine role are regarded as mayates. ?While the "gay" men that are the receptive partners are regarded as maricones, and all of the other pejorative terms you can think of. ?If we regard what men do sexually as a reflection of identity then we miss the boat in attempting to find language in nahuatl to describe something that is very different today, and for which we, not only refuse to have healthy discussions about, but disregard because of our own inhibitions or prejudices. The American (read US) paradigm of assigning sexual behavior to deviant identity categories fails to account for a diversity of sexual expression that has absolutely nothing to do with identity. ?And, it fails to account for culturally defined, (historically and contemporarily) gender roles outside of the male/female binary that have nothing to do with sexual behavior. So, while mayatli may be understood to be the "receptive" anal sexual partner, that is not how it is understood in "practice." ?A more thorough discourse with those of us that have both lived and studied the larger questions of gender, sexual identity and sexual behavior is in order if there is to be a better understanding of language and how it is used and understood. ?Heterosexually identified men can not articulate this issue, "queens" engaging straight men in sex cannot usually articulate this issue, and gay identified men usual inculcate terms, pejorative or otherwise, without full consideration of their implications. ?Because of the shame and prejudice, there are rarely healthy cross cultural and cross history discourses on the topics. ?My two cents. David Atekpatzin Young, MA, Curandero Apache Tribe of Colorado On Saturday, May 17, 2014 6:57 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: Hola Uno de los vocablos de origen nahuatl que se usan para nombrar a los hombres homosexuales cuya funci?n en su relaci?n es ser los penetrados, es la palabra Mayate o ya deformado Mayaton, que viene de Mayatli La palabra Mayate la he escuchado y se usa lo mismo en colonias populares de la ciudad de M?xico que en ciudades del Estado de Mexico y? en peque?os pueblos de la regi?n Baj?o. La razon de usar la? palabra Mayate para los entendidos es que con esa misma palabra se nombra a? escarabajos, insectos cuya ?nica defensa es "Empinar la cola"? "Parar la cola" " Presentan? La cola" . Por analog?a se dice que es lo que hacen? los hombres homosexuales para en? la copula poder ser penetrados. "Se empinan", "Paran la cola" o ya hispanizado Presentan? el culo . Sin homofobia alguna mi peque?a contribuci?n. Espero sea de utilidad Roberto Romero Gutierrez 2014-05-08 1:55 GMT+08:00, Tomas Amaya : > Hi, Michael > > This ?xe? belongs to the ?question - particles?. Other particles of the same > kind are: ?xa?, ?xoh?, ?cox? > Particles that I find related hereto are ?cuix? and ?azo? in classical > nahuatl. > Here their meaning (approximately) in English and Spanish: > 1) > (a)x?: maybe, then..?; ser? que ?, entonces?? > Example: Xa ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng. Do you, maybe, want to to go to the movies? Then, do you want to go to > movies? > Sp. ?Ser? que quieres ir al cine? ?Quieres ir al cine, tal vez? > 2) > Xoh: really??; ?De veras ? > Example: Xoh ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng: Do you really want to go to the movies? > Sp.: ?De veras quieres ir al cine? > 3) > Xe: Tell me,? is it true that; a poco ? > Exemple: Xe ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng.: Tell me, is it true that you want to go to the movies (I supposed that > you do not like it) > Sp.: A poco (de veras) quieres ir al cine. > 4) > Cox: particle to question; part?cula para preguntar. > Example: cox ticnequi tiaz cineco. > Eng.: Do yo want to go to the movies? > Sp. ?Quieres ir al cine? > > For better understanding, I think its important to mention the possible > answers: > 1. Quema nicnequi niaz.Yes, I want to go. > 2. Ahmo, caah nicnequi niaz / Ahmo, ahmo nicnequi niaz. No, I don want to > go: > 3. Qu?n yeh ahmo, ach? quema. Why not? Maybe yes. > 4. Quema. Yes > > > >> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 10:14:49 -0400 >> From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >> To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com >> CC: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx; magnuspharao at gmail.com; >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> >> >> In the examples that you gave yesterday, you used the word "Xe" with >> yes-no questions. I'm not familiar with this word. Does it have a >> cognate in classical Nahuatl? >> >> Thank you, Tomas, >> >> Michael >> >> Quoting Tomas Amaya : >> >> > Hola Ximena, >> > >> > Cihuayolotl may mean woman's heart or female heart. In Spanish: >> > coraz?n de mujer o coraz?n femenino. Maybe your teacher referred to >> > "cihuayotl" which means femininity or "what is typical of a woman" >> > (Spanish: femineidad; "lo de la mujer"). >> > >> > >> > >> > There is another possibility: that your teacher was speaking >> > metaphorically (I do not know if pejoratively or not); if it is the >> > case, the meaning of "cihuayolotl" may be: "the one who being man has >> > the heart of a woman". Here, we could also make use of the possessive >> > : cihuayoleh (the one who has a female heart). >> > >> > >> > >> > The example can be extended in Cuetzalan-Nahuat: >> > >> > "Cihuayoleh" referred to a man "could" mean "homosexual", but its >> > first meaning is "a sensible man". "Oquichyoleh" ("who has a male >> > heart") "could" mean "lesbian", but principally: "a strong woman". >> > >> > Saludos/regards >> > >> > Tomas Amaya >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:27:14 -0500 >> > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> > From: ximena.gutierrez at comunidad.unam.mx >> > To: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com >> > CC: magnuspharao at gmail.com; nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > >> > >> > >> > I heard that the word is "cihuayolotl". This was said to me by a >> > nahuatl teacher from CELE UNAM, Mexico. He's a native speaker from >> > Texcoco. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Ximena Gutierrez >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Tomas Amaya >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Magnus, neic tohuampohuan! >> > >> > >> > >> > The word CUILONI is used in Cuetzalan (pronounced "cuilonh", plural: >> > "cuilo'meh") to design men and women with gay sexual preference. >> > It can be used pejoratively or in neutral form. >> > Examples: >> > 1 Ahmo xicuilon, xe ahmo oncah cihuameh? (Do not be >> > homosexual, are there no women?) >> > 2 Xe ticuilon? Nehhua no. (Are you homosexual? Me too). >> > 3 Ahmo quinequi monamictiz ?n Pancho, in cuilon ?n >> > cuitazoquit (Pancho does not want to get married, this son of a ... >> > is an homosexual!) >> > 4 Yn tocuiloncayouh, ahmo zan cualli in mocelia nican (Our >> > homosexuality is usually not (well) accepted here. >> > >> > Greetings >> > Tomas >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 11:21:29 -0500 >> >> From: magnuspharao at gmail.com >> >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] "Gay" in Nahuatl? >> > >> > >> >> >> >> Hi Listeros >> >> >> >> I was just reading a brochure in Nahuatl published by CONAPRED Mexicos >> >> national commission for the prevention of discrimination. In this >> >> translation it describes the right not to be discriminated for ones >> >> sexuality with the word "cuiloni" and "cuiloncayotl". According to >> >> Molina >> >> this word meant "puto que padece", likely in reference to the passive, >> >> receptive or "effeminate" partner in a male/male sexual relation. first >> >> of >> >> all it struck me as an odd choice of word to describe homosexuality in >> >> a >> >> human rights context, and secondly I thought that I have never heard >> >> this >> >> word used in contemporary Nahuatl. (Here is a link to the brochure for >> >> those interested >> >> http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-Nahuatl-Web_INACCSS.pdf) >> >> >> >> For this reason I thought I would ask you about which Nahuatl words >> >> you >> >> know for the different types of non-normative sexual identities, gay, >> >> homosexual, bisexual, transvestite, transgendered etc. and how they >> >> are >> >> used. I'd be happy to know for each term where it is used (community >> >> and >> >> region), whether it is used pejoratively or neutrally (do anyone >> >> selfidentify with it) and if you have any examples of how it might be >> >> used >> >> that would be excellent. I am thinking of collating the results into a >> >> blog >> >> post. >> >> >> >> Thanks beforehand! >> >> >> >> Magnus >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Magnus Pharao Hansen >> >> PhD. candidate >> >> Department of Anthropology >> >> >> >> Brown University >> >> 128 Hope St. >> >> Providence, RI 02906 >> >> >> >> *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * >> >> US: 001 401 651 8413 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Nahuatl mailing list >> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nahuatl mailing list >> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nahuatl mailing list >> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > >> >> >> >? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Thu May 22 12:08:43 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 08:08:43 -0400 Subject: Manuscript withdrawn Message-ID: The Chimalpahin Codex which was scheduled to be sold yesterday at Christie's was withdrawn prior to the sale, and so remains in the hands of the British and Foreign Bible Society. -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 518-608-4522 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr Thu May 22 18:52:21 2014 From: budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr (Richard BUDELBERGER) Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 20:52:21 +0200 Subject: Manuscript withdrawn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Message du 22/05/14 14:09 > De : John Schwaller > A : nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Objet : [Nahuat-l] Manuscript withdrawn > > The Chimalpahin Codex which was scheduled to be sold yesterday at > Christie's was withdrawn prior to the sale, and so remains in the hands of > the British and Foreign Bible Society. Merci, Pr Schwaller, pour cette excellente nouvelle?; j?en ?tais malade, ? l?id?e que ce chef-d??uvre puisse ?tre perdu pour tous. 500?000+?$, h?las?! m?me ensemble, nous n?aurions pas pu. R. Budelberger. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu May 29 16:39:58 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 11:39:58 -0500 Subject: Chiapas Nahuatl article Message-ID: Dear listeros Does anyone have a pdf copy of this article: Navarrete C?ceres, C. A. 1975. Nueva informaci?n sobre la lengua n?huatl en Chiapas. In *Anales de Antropolog?a* (Vol. 12, No. 1). If you do I would very much like to read it! best wishes, Magnus -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Fri May 30 12:15:48 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 08:15:48 -0400 Subject: Manuscript withdrawn: bound volumes with Ixtlilxochitl and Chimalpahin texts Message-ID: *From:* Gordon Whittaker *Date:* 28 May 2014 08:56:09 GMT+2 *To:* "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" , " aztlan at lists.famsi.org" *Subject:* *Manuscript withdrawn: bound volumes with Ixtlilxochitl and Chimalpahin texts* I'm sure many of us were waiting with bated breath to learn the fate of Bible Society MS 374, the official name of two bound volumes containing, among a number of other items, several manuscripts of texts by Ixtlilxochitl and Chimalpahin. This manuscript has, as John Schwaller reports, apparently been withdrawn from sale at Christie's in London. The texts by Chimalpahin, together with several of the minor documents bound with them, were published years ago in a beautiful and erudite two-volume edition by Susan Schroeder as the so-called Codex Chimalpahin, but they are much more than that. In an introduction to the latter edition Wayne Ruwet describes the contents of MS 374 in admirable form (apart from his minor confusion of Volume 1 with Volume 2). What will come as a surprise to many is that not just texts by Chimalpahin but also the historical works of Ixtlilxochitl are preserved in MS 374. These texts are at least a century older than the oldest copies consulted by Edmundo O'Gorman in preparation of his Ixtlilxochitl edition. Furthermore, several are at least partly in the hand of Ixtlilxochitl himself, as I have been able to determine after extensive study of the originals in England. A great part of the immense value of Ixtlilxochitl's works has to do with his various texts relating the history of pre-Spanish Central Mexico. These have up till now only been published on the basis of late copies, and the otherwise excellent O'Gorman edition has the additional disadvantage of being an attempt at a unitary edition combining many copies of considerably varying date and relationship, but without indicating which wording has been adopted from which copies. Nevertheless, O'Gorman's introductory studies, plus the supplementary documents published with them, represent a gigantic milestone in research on Ixtlilxochitl and his writings. I am now in the process of preparing a new edition of these pre-Spanish histories by Ixtlilxochitl, the first volume of which is already nearing completion. This new edition, with preliminary studies and a commentary, contains the texts as preserved in MS 374. It surely comes as a relief to all of us that MS 374 has been granted reprieve from potential sale to a private buyer. Christie's, however, which has acted very responsibly, had gone out of its way to ensure that specialist libraries, including several in the U.S. and Europe, were informed of the upcoming sale and had an opportunity to bid for the manuscript. Gordon Whittaker _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl