From idiez at me.com Tue Sep 2 18:58:05 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 20:58:05 +0200 Subject: charpih Message-ID: The Modern Huastecan Nahuatl word for slingshot is “charpih”. Does anybody know where this comes from? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 18:46:14 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 13:46:14 -0500 Subject: Charpih Message-ID: In Hueyapan Spanish it is called Charpe. I think it is probably of Spanish origin. Magnus On 3 September 2014 12:00, wrote: > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. charpih (John Sullivan) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: John Sullivan > To: list nahuatl discussion > Cc: > Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 20:58:05 +0200 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] charpih > The Modern Huastecan Nahuatl word for slingshot is “charpih”. Does anybody > know where this comes from? > John > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Sep 3 21:34:30 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 23:34:30 +0200 Subject: Charpih In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, Fantastic, thank you very much! Un abrazo, John On 03 Sep 2014, at 20:46, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > In Hueyapan Spanish it is called Charpe. I think it is probably of Spanish > origin. > Magnus > > > On 3 September 2014 12:00, wrote: > >> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. charpih (John Sullivan) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: John Sullivan >> To: list nahuatl discussion >> Cc: >> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 20:58:05 +0200 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] charpih >> The Modern Huastecan Nahuatl word for slingshot is “charpih”. Does anybody >> know where this comes from? >> John >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 3 19:59:39 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 15:59:39 -0400 Subject: Charpih In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Your term may be related to this, John: http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=charpa Michael Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > In Hueyapan Spanish it is called Charpe. I think it is probably of Spanish > origin. > Magnus > > > On 3 September 2014 12:00, wrote: > >> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. charpih (John Sullivan) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: John Sullivan >> To: list nahuatl discussion >> Cc: >> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 20:58:05 +0200 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] charpih >> The Modern Huastecan Nahuatl word for slingshot is ?charpih?. Does anybody >> know where this comes from? >> John >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 4 17:55:40 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 19:55:40 +0200 Subject: subjects Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, We know that in Classical Nahuatl, if a verb is conjugated in the first person plural, you don’t have to mention the speaker. In other words, “Carlos and I went to the market”, would be “Carlos tiyahqueh tianquizco.” And if you have a group of people who are perfoming an action, you only have to name one of them as a representative of the group. I have always looked for examples of this in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, without success. Today Sabina gave an example of it in a dictionary entry. It is an example sentence for the word, “cuacercah”, “wood or bamboo fence”. “Notonanan motzauctoqueh zan ica cuacercah, inihhuantin axquiamatih ica alampreh yon telah.” Toamox20140904 (CUACERCAH), “My grandmother (and those living with her) have fenced (their property) with a wooden/bamboo fence, they don’t like it with wire or cloth.” John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Sep 6 15:22:20 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 17:22:20 +0200 Subject: pipi(tl) Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, I am looking for MORE evidence of a root “pipi(tl)”. It shows up in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl as: pipihya:ya, for meat to smell bad pipihya:c, bad smelling meat, or a person whose armpits smell bad pipitiya, for person’s hair to get tangly when it isn’t combed pipitic, tangly and smelly hair; a person who smells bad due to not bathing And in Molina [Nahuatl to Spanish 82r] pipiyayaliztli, olor a sobaquina I would like to come up with an approximation of the meaning of the noun “pipi(tl)”. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Sep 6 18:01:56 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 14:01:56 -0400 Subject: pipi(tl) In-Reply-To: <58A1F1D2-76F4-4E88-AA36-4F02A0B10B37@me.com> Message-ID: Dear fray Alonso, Please forgive me for bothering you about a matter that may seem trivial. I recently became confused about the location of a word in your 1555 dictionary. I thought that it was on folio 82, but I saw that the following folio was 87 -- and then I saw that the preceding folio was 85. To make a long story short, it turns out that folio 85 is mis-numbered as 82 and folio 88 is mis-numbered as 84. Further, folios 9 and 12 have no number at all. Also, folio 166 is numbered as 66. Thank you for your attention to this problem. If I find anything further, I'll contact you about it. Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Sep 6 18:05:44 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 14:05:44 -0400 Subject: Dear fray Alonso (previously mislabelled) In-Reply-To: <20140906140156.zy1ycalvoso8skcw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Campbell, R. Joe" : > Dear fray Alonso, > > Please forgive me for bothering you about a matter that may seem trivial. > I recently became confused about the location of a word in your 1555 > dictionary. > I thought that it was on folio 82, but I saw that the following folio > was 87 -- > and then I saw that the preceding folio was 85. > > To make a long story short, it turns out that folio 85 is > mis-numbered as 82 and folio 88 is mis-numbered as 84. Further, > folios 9 and 12 have no number at all. Also, folio 166 is numbered > as 66. > > Thank you for your attention to this problem. If I find anything > further, I'll contact you about it. > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc at cox.net Sat Sep 6 19:47:14 2014 From: micc at cox.net (micc) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 12:47:14 -0700 Subject: Dear fray Alonso (previously mislabelled) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Joe, I hate when Alonso does that!!!!! -- I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD 619.948.8861 www.mexicayotl.net www.mexicayotl.org www.mexicayotl.com www.aguila-blanca.com On 9/6/2014 11:05 AM, Campbell, R. Joe wrote: > Quoting "Campbell, R. Joe" : > >> Dear fray Alonso, >> >> Please forgive me for bothering you about a matter that may seem >> trivial. >> I recently became confused about the location of a word in your 1555 >> dictionary. >> I thought that it was on folio 82, but I saw that the following folio >> was 87 -- >> and then I saw that the preceding folio was 85. >> >> To make a long story short, it turns out that folio 85 is >> mis-numbered as 82 and folio 88 is mis-numbered as 84. Further, >> folios 9 and 12 have no number at all. Also, folio 166 is numbered >> as 66. >> >> Thank you for your attention to this problem. If I find anything >> further, I'll contact you about it. >> >> Joe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 17:32:32 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 12:32:32 -0500 Subject: Xochicuicatl Cuecuechtli Message-ID: Hi Listeros, Just wanted to share my review of Xochicuicatl Cuecuechtli billed as the first contmeporary Nahuatl opera. I was lucky enough to attend the premiere this saturday. Its libretto is based on one of the Cantares Mexicanos. The music was really good, but I was a little dismayed by how little the role of the language actually was in the performance. I would still recommend anyone interested in Nahuatl to see it if they have the chance. Here is a link to my review: http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.mx/2014/09/xochicuicatl-cuecuechtli-first.html best wishes, Magnus -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Sep 8 20:48:20 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 22:48:20 +0200 Subject: Xochicuicatl Cuecuechtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, I think you hit the nail on the head when you write "the language was only an instrument to achieve an aesthetic effect, but not meant to be a language of actual communication. Kind of like a meaningless soundscape, that the Spanish supertitles then inscribed meaning onto. So is this cultural translation or is it colonizing and erasing the Nahuatl text and the voice of the Nahuas who wrote it.” This is the standard purpose for the use of Nahuatl language and glyphs in Mexican culture today: aesthetic effect. John On 08 Sep 2014, at 19:32, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Hi Listeros, > > Just wanted to share my review of Xochicuicatl Cuecuechtli billed as the > first contmeporary Nahuatl opera. I was lucky enough to attend the premiere > this saturday. Its libretto is based on one of the Cantares Mexicanos. The > music was really good, but I was a little dismayed by how little the role > of the language actually was in the performance. I would still recommend > anyone interested in Nahuatl to see it if they have the chance. > > Here is a link to my review: > > http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.mx/2014/09/xochicuicatl-cuecuechtli-first.html > > best wishes, > Magnus > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Sep 10 17:58:51 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 19:58:51 +0200 Subject: pachtli Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, Iʻm interested in getting at the original meaning of pachtli. It is used in so many compounds: pachihui (for heavy tree limbs to droop down) and pachoa: (to press down on s.t.), -pachcho: (s.t.ʻs pulp); pachontic [pachtli, ohmitl, ti, c] (fluffy, spongy fur or hair). From Molina, for pachtli we have malhojo, which is vegatable refuse such as straw, husks, cane, etc., but he seems to refer to a kind of moss that hangs from the limbs of trees also. And pachtli, in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl is the old clothing you use to stuff into pillows. Se we have hanging (moss) and spongy (vegetable refuse). Any ideas? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Sep 10 18:01:35 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 20:01:35 +0200 Subject: pachtli2 Message-ID: And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Wed Sep 10 23:29:20 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 01:29:20 +0200 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: <47814E17-DD79-4494-80D3-444EB32A5D08@me.com> Message-ID: Dear listeros John Sullivan’s mail reminded me of a pun based on vowel length, which I heard once in Milpa Alta. I only have a faint recollection of it since it was nearly 40 years ago and my working notebook is lost, but maybe a listero from Milpa Alta can check (and correct me if necessary). It was : "ximopacho huan ximopacho" « Acércate (o posiblemente : doblate) y saciate ». It seems to me that the first /a/ was long, and the second short, but I may be mistaken. So it seems that there are two pairs pachihui/pachoa, with long and short /a/, so couldn’t it be the case that there are two pachtic ? And how is the meaning related ? Btw, in Carochi (Book IV chap. 6 « De los mexicanismos ») you find with a short /a/ : "In opachiuhquê atlî, niman ic oyàquê" « En estando hartos de beber, luego se fueron », which would confort my recollection. There also is an apparently puzzling form at the end of the grammar, where he gives minimal pairs with applicative forms : "pachihuia nicno, 1a y 2a breues : assechole, espiole ; pàchihuia nicno, saltillo en la 1a y larga la 2a : me aprovecho de algo, como de medicina". But actually, pàchihuia is an incorporated form which has to be analyzed pà- (noun stem of pa’-tli « medicine ») + chihuia, applicative of chihua : i.e. « I use sthg. as a medicine » (Lockhart’s translation). Unfortunately, Carochi gives no minimal pair based on short vs. long /a/ with pachihui, pachoa or pachihuia. And how is the meaning « spy on s.o. » related to "become satiated" ? Best M.L. > Message du 10/09/14 20:02 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie à : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] pachtli2 > > And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 01:20:36 2014 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 09:20:36 +0800 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: <47814E17-DD79-4494-80D3-444EB32A5D08@me.com> Message-ID: Hola John Yo sólo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan otomíes, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los indígenas y los mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que parecen trasladados de Francía, y la usan para nombrar a una planta cuyo nombre científico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color grisáceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los árboles. Originaria de América Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita asociada a vegetación inundable, matorral xerófilo, pastizal, bosques de encino y de pino. " A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles en las zonas boscosas de la regón. Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelización, y por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "niño dios". La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo supe en la ciudad de México que se le recomendaba para las "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos medicinales puedes verlos en esta página: http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy pequeña, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se adhiere y cuelga de los árboles también es llamado en la región Pachtli o Pachtle pero éste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los árboles a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. Yo creo que es a partir de éste conocimiento botánico los indios usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar simbólicamente con el pequeño heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o "canicula", época de máximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar simbólicamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada de huracanes, por lo que en la religión de estos pueblos se celebraba respectivamente y en este órden primero la fiesta de la veintena de Pachtontli (pequeño Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llamádas así entre los puebos de origen de los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de Sahagún En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los informantes de Sahagún, éste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su equivalencia con el calendario católico . Roberto Romero Gutiérrez. 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : > And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. > tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. > place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 11 12:42:41 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:42:41 +0200 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mi estimado Roberto, Ésta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustaría saber si se emplea, aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ¿se emplea de alguna manera como relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? Un abrazo, John On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: > Hola John > > Yo sólo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan > otomíes, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los indígenas y los > mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que > parecen trasladados de Francía, y la usan para nombrar a una planta > cuyo nombre científico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece > a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras > que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color > grisáceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los > árboles. Originaria de América Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco > y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita > asociada a vegetación inundable, matorral xerófilo, pastizal, bosques > de encino y de pino. " > > A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, > la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en > visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles > en las zonas boscosas de la regón. > > Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para > estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un > adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y > religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelización, y > por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "niño > dios". > > La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo > supe en la ciudad de México que se le recomendaba para las > "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos > medicinales puedes verlos en esta página: > http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 > > Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy > pequeña, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se > adhiere y cuelga de los árboles también es llamado en la región > Pachtli o Pachtle pero éste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los árboles > a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. > > Yo creo que es a partir de éste conocimiento botánico los indios > usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar > simbólicamente con el pequeño heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o > "canicula", época de máximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se > interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar > simbólicamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada > de huracanes, por lo que en la religión de estos pueblos se celebraba > respectivamente y en este órden primero la fiesta de la veintena de > Pachtontli (pequeño Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran > Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llamádas así entre los puebos de origen de > los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se > corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco > y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de > Sahagún En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los > informantes de Sahagún, éste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas > se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su > equivalencia con el calendario católico . > > Roberto Romero Gutiérrez. > > > 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : >> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. >> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. >> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 11 12:58:35 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:58:35 +0200 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: <1281662071.31693.1410391760532.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f27> Message-ID: Fran and Michel, In the Huasteca there are two pairs: 1. pachihui and pachoa with a long a. Here pachihui is what happens to a piece of fruit that falls to the ground: it is bruised and sometimes it goes splat. Pachoa is to squash something (with your foot), like a bug or a piece of fruit that is on the ground. 2. pachihui and pachoa with a short a is the set that I believe is based on the pachtli plant. pachihui is for something to hang down, but at the same time, to fill out. Here is where “pachihui noyollo” comes in. Pachoa is to press on something, to make it bend down. When a hen sits on her eggs, it is quipachoa, and roosting in general is tlapachoa. mopachoa is to bend over, and I think this is what is meant when with the meanings of to get close to, and to examine (to bend oneself down with respect to….). It is very appealing to me to combine the two ideas of hanging and filling out (plant refuse for stuffing, cushioning) into a single origin in the plant, pachtli. ¿Queniuhqui inquiittah? John On Sep 11, 2014, at 1:29 AM, M Launey wrote: > Dear listeros > > John Sullivan’s mail reminded me of a pun based on vowel length, which I heard once in Milpa Alta. I only have a faint recollection of it since it was nearly 40 years ago and my working notebook is lost, but maybe a listero from Milpa Alta can check (and correct me if necessary). It was : "ximopacho huan ximopacho" « Acércate (o posiblemente : doblate) y saciate ». It seems to me that the first /a/ was long, and the second short, but I may be mistaken. > > So it seems that there are two pairs pachihui/pachoa, with long and short /a/, so couldn’t it be the case that there are two pachtic ? And how is the meaning related ? > > Btw, in Carochi (Book IV chap. 6 « De los mexicanismos ») you find with a short /a/ : "In opachiuhquê atlî, niman ic oyàquê" « En estando hartos de beber, luego se fueron », which would confort my recollection. > > There also is an apparently puzzling form at the end of the grammar, where he gives minimal pairs with applicative forms : > > "pachihuia nicno, 1a y 2a breues : assechole, espiole ; pàchihuia nicno, saltillo en la 1a y larga la 2a : me aprovecho de algo, como de medicina". > > But actually, pàchihuia is an incorporated form which has to be analyzed pà- (noun stem of pa’-tli « medicine ») + chihuia, applicative of chihua : i.e. « I use sthg. as a medicine » (Lockhart’s translation). Unfortunately, Carochi gives no minimal pair based on short vs. long /a/ with pachihui, pachoa or pachihuia. And how is the meaning « spy on s.o. » related to "become satiated" ? > > Best > > M.L. > > > > > > > > > Message du 10/09/14 20:02 > > De : "John Sullivan" > > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > > Copie à : > > Objet : [Nahuat-l] pachtli2 > > > > And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 11 14:36:25 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 16:36:25 +0200 Subject: pachtli3 Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, I just spoke to Sabina and Abelardo at IDIEZ. They saw the picture of the plant, pachtli, and identify it as “heno” (the word they use in Nahuatl), a kind of vine that grows on trees in the Huasteca. It is used as a base upon which the figurines of the “nacimientos” are placed at Christmas, and also as a base for roosting hens. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 11 15:20:58 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 17:20:58 +0200 Subject: pachtli4 Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, It seems to me, following the general attitude of Richard Andrews, that we have a root, pachtli, which is a plant. And three characteristics of that plant, i.e., 1. it hangs, 2. it fills out (it is cushiony) , and 3. it is parasitic (it covers trees), are exploited through derivation to create three fields of meaning. Some examples: 1. pachihui, “for a building to settle or for the branches of a tree to hang down. pachoa, “to roost, to bend over, etc.” 2. pachihui, “to be satisfied (noyollo), pachtic, “thick consistency”. -pachca, “consumed food that makes me feel stuffed or satisfied”. pachontic (pachtli, ohmitl, ti, c), “thick, curly, soft fur”. 3. pachtic, “to be covered with something (swarming flies, etc.) John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From clayton at indiana.edu Thu Sep 11 15:24:21 2014 From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 11:24:21 -0400 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, The plant, commonly known as "Spanish moss" in English, has indeed been used for stuffing pillows, mattresses, etc. I don't think I've ever seen it used that way, but I certainly heard that it was when I was a kid in Florida. We used to play with it a lot. It was reported to give one red-bugs / chiggers, but that never seemed to bother us. The "use" I recall best is that the year I was in the second grade, our next-door neighbors raised rabbits, and my brother and I helped the neighbor kids collect great quantities of it to line the rabbit hutches to protect their feet from the wire. If you're not familiar with it, just google its botanical name or "Spanish moss" and you'll see lots of pictures. It is long and stringy, but quite soft, and when bunched up it makes good padding. Mary Quoting John Sullivan : > Mi estimado Roberto, > Ésta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustaría saber si se > emplea, aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ¿se emplea de alguna > manera como relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? > Un abrazo, > John > > On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: > >> Hola John >> >> Yo sólo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan >> otomíes, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los indígenas y los >> mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que >> parecen trasladados de Francía, y la usan para nombrar a una planta >> cuyo nombre científico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece >> a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras >> que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color >> grisáceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los >> árboles. Originaria de América Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco >> y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita >> asociada a vegetación inundable, matorral xerófilo, pastizal, bosques >> de encino y de pino. " >> >> A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, >> la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en >> visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles >> en las zonas boscosas de la regón. >> >> Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para >> estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un >> adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y >> religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelización, y >> por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "niño >> dios". >> >> La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo >> supe en la ciudad de México que se le recomendaba para las >> "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos >> medicinales puedes verlos en esta página: >> http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 >> >> Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy >> pequeña, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se >> adhiere y cuelga de los árboles también es llamado en la región >> Pachtli o Pachtle pero éste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los árboles >> a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. >> >> Yo creo que es a partir de éste conocimiento botánico los indios >> usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar >> simbólicamente con el pequeño heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o >> "canicula", época de máximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se >> interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar >> simbólicamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada >> de huracanes, por lo que en la religión de estos pueblos se celebraba >> respectivamente y en este órden primero la fiesta de la veintena de >> Pachtontli (pequeño Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran >> Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llamádas así entre los puebos de origen de >> los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se >> corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco >> y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de >> Sahagún En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los >> informantes de Sahagún, éste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas >> se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su >> equivalencia con el calendario católico . >> >> Roberto Romero Gutiérrez. >> >> >> 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : >>> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. >>> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. >>> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 18:14:39 2014 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 02:14:39 +0800 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hola John Hasta épocas recientes el pachtli o heno tuvo un uso profano en regiones rurales de esta zona del sur de Querétaro y norte del Estado de México . Se utilizaba como un relleno de desechables "cojines". Aun por las decadas de los 60 era un uso que le daban los arrieros, los pastores o gente que por alguna razon tenía que andar y dormir por el monte y a la intemperie. Los que dormian al aire libre usaban el Pachtli o heno como relleno de una especie de almohada desechable. El pachtli era envuelto en un paliacate, pañuelo por lo general de color rojo del tamaño de una mascada o sea mas grande que un pañuelo. . Claro si esa planta estaba a la mano. Pero para ellos lo mas importante era llevar lo que le llamaban Shirgo, no se si asi se escriba o se diga, pero yo asi lo escucho. Este Shirgo es una indumentaria de manufactura artesanal ya en desuso en su fabricación y en su uso, pues dejo de fabricarse y usarse por su costo, el cual no pudo competir contra el mas bajo precio de las llamadas "mangas" hechas de hule y en fábricas modernas. Un ejemplar de este tipo de prenda Shirgo afortunamente se encuentra exhibido en el museo de Acambay. Es una especie de capa de gran tamaño hecha con manojos de hojas tejidas y entrelazadas de un tipo de zacate que es impermeable al agua. Esta indumentaria por la forma y el material con el que esta hecho si se desea se extiende en el suelo y se duerme sobre el, pero si llovía o helaba les podia servir de casa de campaña con la forma de un mini Tipi que los protegia de las inclemencias del tiempo . Es una indumentaria que parece ser no es de origen indio sino español. Recuerdo haber visto en algun expediente de inquisición o texto sobre el tema, que se menciono el uso del pachtli pero no me acuerdo si era como parte de algun remedio herbolário identificado por los denunciantes como hechicería o si el pachtli o heno era parte de o el relleno de un muñeco manufacturado para hechizos, forma de brujería que fue muy comun en la época colonial. Si recuerdo que en Ixtlixochitl se menciona que a los Señores Chichimecas al momento de asumir el señorío se les colocaba sobre sus cabezas un tocado hecho de heno, una especie de peluca . Supongo que es también una forma de otorgarles simbólicamente el control mágico de la lluvia por la relación simbólica y ritual que me parece existe entre el Pachtli y la presencia o ausencia de lluvia. Entiendo por Chichimeca, una forma de manifestación de la cultura mesoamerica de tipo no urbano, no señalo con chichimeca a las pequeñas bandas de cazadores recolectores . Roberto Romero Gutierrez El 11/9/14, John Sullivan escribió: > Mi estimado Roberto, > Ésta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustaría saber si se emplea, > aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ¿se emplea de alguna manera como > relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? > Un abrazo, > John > > On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: > >> Hola John >> >> Yo sólo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan >> otomíes, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los indígenas y los >> mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que >> parecen trasladados de Francía, y la usan para nombrar a una planta >> cuyo nombre científico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece >> a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras >> que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color >> grisáceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los >> árboles. Originaria de América Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco >> y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita >> asociada a vegetación inundable, matorral xerófilo, pastizal, bosques >> de encino y de pino. " >> >> A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, >> la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en >> visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles >> en las zonas boscosas de la regón. >> >> Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para >> estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un >> adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y >> religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelización, y >> por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "niño >> dios". >> >> La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo >> supe en la ciudad de México que se le recomendaba para las >> "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos >> medicinales puedes verlos en esta página: >> http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 >> >> Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy >> pequeña, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se >> adhiere y cuelga de los árboles también es llamado en la región >> Pachtli o Pachtle pero éste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los árboles >> a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. >> >> Yo creo que es a partir de éste conocimiento botánico los indios >> usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar >> simbólicamente con el pequeño heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o >> "canicula", época de máximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se >> interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar >> simbólicamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada >> de huracanes, por lo que en la religión de estos pueblos se celebraba >> respectivamente y en este órden primero la fiesta de la veintena de >> Pachtontli (pequeño Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran >> Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llamádas así entre los puebos de origen de >> los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se >> corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco >> y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de >> Sahagún En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los >> informantes de Sahagún, éste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas >> se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su >> equivalencia con el calendario católico . >> >> Roberto Romero Gutiérrez. >> >> >> 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : >>> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. >>> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. >>> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 11 22:01:37 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 00:01:37 +0200 Subject: pachtli4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is interesting. As for the plant, there indeed seems to be convincing trans-dialectal evidence. But to my great desappointment, it is not mentioned in Sahagun’s Book XI of the Florentine Codex (probably just Sahagun’s omission). But about the verb pair pachihui/pachoa, as far as I know there are two of them (could some native speaker confirm ?), with short vs. long /a/, so at least one of them is not related to the plant (is its /a/ short or long, by the way ?) Best Michel Launey > Message du 11/09/14 17:22 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie à : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] pachtli4 > > Notequixpoyohuan, > It seems to me, following the general attitude of Richard Andrews, that we have a root, pachtli, which is a plant. And three characteristics of that plant, i.e., 1. it hangs, 2. it fills out (it is cushiony) , and 3. it is parasitic (it covers trees), are exploited through derivation to create three fields of meaning. > Some examples: > 1. pachihui, “for a building to settle or for the branches of a tree to hang down. pachoa, “to roost, to bend over, etc.” > 2. pachihui, “to be satisfied (noyollo), pachtic, “thick consistency”. -pachca, “consumed food that makes me feel stuffed or satisfied”. pachontic (pachtli, ohmitl, ti, c), “thick, curly, soft fur”. > 3. pachtic, “to be covered with something (swarming flies, etc.) > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Thu Sep 11 22:24:03 2014 From: micc2 at cox.net (mario) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:24:03 -0700 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Piyali inmohuantin! PAXTLE....PAZTLE----- Is used for Mexican manger scenes. It is also used for wooden masks as hair. It grows crazy here in my trees in Chula Vista Ca..... I remember seeing giant trees in the sierra between Hidalgo and Veracruz hung with long streamers of this plant. BTW I also have a small clump of the Peruvian version which is a bit thicker and larger than the Mexican species. -- I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD 619.948.8861 www.mexicayotl.net www.mexicayotl.org www.mexicayotl.com www.aguila-blanca.com On 9/11/2014 8:24 AM, Clayton, Mary L. wrote: > John, > The plant, commonly known as "Spanish moss" in English, has indeed > been used for stuffing pillows, mattresses, etc. I don't think I've > ever seen it used that way, but I certainly heard that it was when I > was a kid in Florida. We used to play with it a lot. It was reported > to give one red-bugs / chiggers, but that never seemed to bother us. > The "use" I recall best is that the year I was in the second grade, > our next-door neighbors raised rabbits, and my brother and I helped > the neighbor kids collect great quantities of it to line the rabbit > hutches to protect their feet from the wire. > If you're not familiar with it, just google its botanical name or > "Spanish moss" and you'll see lots of pictures. It is long and > stringy, but quite soft, and when bunched up it makes good padding. > > Mary > > Quoting John Sullivan : > >> Mi estimado Roberto, >> Ésta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustaría saber si se >> emplea, aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ¿se emplea de alguna >> manera como relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? >> Un abrazo, >> John >> >> On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: >> >>> Hola John >>> >>> Yo sólo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan >>> otomíes, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los indígenas y los >>> mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que >>> parecen trasladados de Francía, y la usan para nombrar a una planta >>> cuyo nombre científico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece >>> a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras >>> que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color >>> grisáceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los >>> árboles. Originaria de América Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco >>> y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita >>> asociada a vegetación inundable, matorral xerófilo, pastizal, bosques >>> de encino y de pino. " >>> >>> A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, >>> la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en >>> visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles >>> en las zonas boscosas de la regón. >>> >>> Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para >>> estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un >>> adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y >>> religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelización, y >>> por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "niño >>> dios". >>> >>> La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo >>> supe en la ciudad de México que se le recomendaba para las >>> "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos >>> medicinales puedes verlos en esta página: >>> http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 >>> >>> >>> Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy >>> pequeña, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se >>> adhiere y cuelga de los árboles también es llamado en la región >>> Pachtli o Pachtle pero éste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los árboles >>> a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. >>> >>> Yo creo que es a partir de éste conocimiento botánico los indios >>> usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar >>> simbólicamente con el pequeño heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o >>> "canicula", época de máximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se >>> interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar >>> simbólicamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada >>> de huracanes, por lo que en la religión de estos pueblos se celebraba >>> respectivamente y en este órden primero la fiesta de la veintena de >>> Pachtontli (pequeño Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran >>> Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llamádas así entre los puebos de origen de >>> los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se >>> corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco >>> y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de >>> Sahagún En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los >>> informantes de Sahagún, éste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas >>> se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su >>> equivalencia con el calendario católico . >>> >>> Roberto Romero Gutiérrez. >>> >>> >>> 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : >>>> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with >>>> insects. 2. >>>> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic >>>> vines. 3. >>>> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick >>>> consistency. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 14:58:38 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 09:58:38 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 349, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Regarding Pachtli I dont think pachoa and pachihui etc. are derived from pachtli, but rather the other way round. Pachoa and pachihui both has the basic meaning of superposing something on something else. And deriving a noun from that would fit both with moss which is superposed on rocks and trees and the other meanings of the word. Furthermore I believe that pachoa and pachihui belong to a group of verbs that describe movement and which originally were formed through a movement/locational prefix and a verb stem chihui/chihua or tsihui/tsihua. "pa" is then one of the old movement/location prefixes that appears in verbs such as patzoa, pachihui, panoa, pachoa, -pan, ikpak, and maybe patzka. I give a fuller account of my reasoning on my blog here: http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.mx/2014/09/nahuatloligosynthesis-and-etymology-of.html best wishes, Magnus -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Sep 13 15:31:37 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 17:31:37 +0200 Subject: po In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Estimado Roberto y todos, Hace tiempo solicité comentarios sobre -poh, y incluiste en tu respuesta el ejemplo del uso de -po en composición con sustantivos, con el sentido de “lleno de…(ese sustantivo)", hinchado de…. (ese sustantivo)", etc., y creo que muchos ejemplos eran con -potic. ¿Ese -po tiene la o larga? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Wed Sep 17 17:06:57 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:06:57 -0500 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: <54122103.9050005@cox.net> Message-ID: Tocnihuané: In relation to pachtli, I want to mention two things: 1. An intesting derivation: pachtli --˃ pachtontli (thanks Roberto!) --˃ pachtontic --˃ cuapachtontic --˃ pachón in mexican Spanish (having tangled hair). The same derivation, but in Nahuat: pachti --˃ (...) --˃ pachontic --˃ cuapachontic --˃ pachón. 2. The use of pachtli for dressing: § 19. yn chichimeca tlamintinemia àtle incal àtle intlal àtle yntlaqueyan manqui tilmatli çan ehuatlaquemitl çan pachtli yn quimoquentiaya. Auh inpilhuan çan chitaco huacalco yn huapahuaya From: Walter Lehmann (1974). Die Geschichte der Königreche von Colhuacan und Mexico (Historia de los reinos de Colhuacan y Mexico; también: Códice Chimalpopoca). Berlin: Verlag W. Kohlhammer. My translation:As for the chichimecas, they use to live hunting; they had no house, no clothing; nothing like tissue, it was only leather, pachtli with which they covered themselves. Regarding their children, it was inside of chitallis, of huacallis where they were raised. Just a contribution for a better understanding on the word/plant PACHTLI. Tomas Amaya > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:24:03 -0700 > From: micc2 at cox.net > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pachtli2 > > Piyali inmohuantin! > > PAXTLE....PAZTLE----- Is used for Mexican manger scenes. It is also > used for wooden masks as hair. > > It grows crazy here in my trees in Chula Vista Ca..... I remember seeing > giant trees in the sierra between Hidalgo and Veracruz hung with long > streamers of this plant. BTW I also have a small clump of the Peruvian > version which is a bit thicker and larger than the Mexican species. > > -- > I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: > > "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz > > > Mario E. Aguilar, PhD > > 619.948.8861 > > www.mexicayotl.net > www.mexicayotl.org > www.mexicayotl.com > www.aguila-blanca.com > > On 9/11/2014 8:24 AM, Clayton, Mary L. wrote: > > John, > > The plant, commonly known as "Spanish moss" in English, has indeed > > been used for stuffing pillows, mattresses, etc. I don't think I've > > ever seen it used that way, but I certainly heard that it was when I > > was a kid in Florida. We used to play with it a lot. It was reported > > to give one red-bugs / chiggers, but that never seemed to bother us. > > The "use" I recall best is that the year I was in the second grade, > > our next-door neighbors raised rabbits, and my brother and I helped > > the neighbor kids collect great quantities of it to line the rabbit > > hutches to protect their feet from the wire. > > If you're not familiar with it, just google its botanical name or > > "Spanish moss" and you'll see lots of pictures. It is long and > > stringy, but quite soft, and when bunched up it makes good padding. > > > > Mary > > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > > > >> Mi estimado Roberto, > >> Ésta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustaría saber si se > >> emplea, aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ¿se emplea de alguna > >> manera como relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? > >> Un abrazo, > >> John > >> > >> On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: > >> > >>> Hola John > >>> > >>> Yo sólo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan > >>> otomíes, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los indígenas y los > >>> mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que > >>> parecen trasladados de Francía, y la usan para nombrar a una planta > >>> cuyo nombre científico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece > >>> a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras > >>> que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color > >>> grisáceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los > >>> árboles. Originaria de América Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco > >>> y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita > >>> asociada a vegetación inundable, matorral xerófilo, pastizal, bosques > >>> de encino y de pino. " > >>> > >>> A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, > >>> la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en > >>> visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles > >>> en las zonas boscosas de la regón. > >>> > >>> Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para > >>> estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un > >>> adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y > >>> religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelización, y > >>> por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "niño > >>> dios". > >>> > >>> La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo > >>> supe en la ciudad de México que se le recomendaba para las > >>> "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos > >>> medicinales puedes verlos en esta página: > >>> http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 > >>> > >>> > >>> Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy > >>> pequeña, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se > >>> adhiere y cuelga de los árboles también es llamado en la región > >>> Pachtli o Pachtle pero éste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los árboles > >>> a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. > >>> > >>> Yo creo que es a partir de éste conocimiento botánico los indios > >>> usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar > >>> simbólicamente con el pequeño heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o > >>> "canicula", época de máximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se > >>> interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar > >>> simbólicamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada > >>> de huracanes, por lo que en la religión de estos pueblos se celebraba > >>> respectivamente y en este órden primero la fiesta de la veintena de > >>> Pachtontli (pequeño Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran > >>> Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llamádas así entre los puebos de origen de > >>> los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se > >>> corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco > >>> y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de > >>> Sahagún En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los > >>> informantes de Sahagún, éste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas > >>> se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su > >>> equivalencia con el calendario católico . > >>> > >>> Roberto Romero Gutiérrez. > >>> > >>> > >>> 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : > >>>> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with > >>>> insects. 2. > >>>> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic > >>>> vines. 3. > >>>> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick > >>>> consistency. > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Nahuatl mailing list > >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >>>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Sep 17 20:28:02 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:28:02 +0200 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the Huasteca, the word is cua:pachontic. For a long time I couldn´t figure out what the -on- was. Then I got the idea that it is from “ohmitl”, “pelt”, although I can´t explain the absence of the h. Now Tomás, you give another form, “pachtontic", and since the more common form for “pelt" is “tohmitl”, I feel a little less bad about that h. Tlazcamati, John On Sep 17, 2014, at 7:06 PM, Tomas Amaya wrote: > > > > Tocnihuané: > In relation to pachtli, I want to mention two things: > 1. An intesting derivation: pachtli --˃ pachtontli (thanks Roberto!) --˃ pachtontic --˃ cuapachtontic --˃ pachón in mexican Spanish (having tangled hair). The same derivation, but in Nahuat: pachti --˃ (...) > > --˃ pachontic --˃ cuapachontic --˃ pachón. > > 2. The use of pachtli for dressing: > § 19. yn chichimeca tlamintinemia àtle incal àtle intlal àtle yntlaqueyan manqui tilmatli > çan ehuatlaquemitl > çan pachtli yn quimoquentiaya. > Auh inpilhuan çan chitaco huacalco yn huapahuaya > From: > Walter Lehmann (1974). Die Geschichte der Königreche von Colhuacan und Mexico (Historia de los reinos de Colhuacan y Mexico; también: Códice Chimalpopoca). Berlin: Verlag W. Kohlhammer. > My translation:As for the chichimecas, they use to live hunting; they had no house, no clothing; nothing like tissue, it was only leather, pachtli with which they covered themselves. Regarding their children, it was inside of chitallis, of huacallis where they were raised. > Just a contribution for a better understanding on the word/plant PACHTLI. > Tomas Amaya > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:24:03 -0700 >> From: micc2 at cox.net >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pachtli2 >> >> Piyali inmohuantin! >> >> PAXTLE....PAZTLE----- Is used for Mexican manger scenes. It is also >> used for wooden masks as hair. >> >> It grows crazy here in my trees in Chula Vista Ca..... I remember seeing >> giant trees in the sierra between Hidalgo and Veracruz hung with long >> streamers of this plant. BTW I also have a small clump of the Peruvian >> version which is a bit thicker and larger than the Mexican species. >> >> -- >> I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: >> >> "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz >> >> >> Mario E. Aguilar, PhD >> >> 619.948.8861 >> >> www.mexicayotl.net >> www.mexicayotl.org >> www.mexicayotl.com >> www.aguila-blanca.com >> >> On 9/11/2014 8:24 AM, Clayton, Mary L. wrote: >>> John, >>> The plant, commonly known as "Spanish moss" in English, has indeed >>> been used for stuffing pillows, mattresses, etc. I don't think I've >>> ever seen it used that way, but I certainly heard that it was when I >>> was a kid in Florida. We used to play with it a lot. It was reported >>> to give one red-bugs / chiggers, but that never seemed to bother us. >>> The "use" I recall best is that the year I was in the second grade, >>> our next-door neighbors raised rabbits, and my brother and I helped >>> the neighbor kids collect great quantities of it to line the rabbit >>> hutches to protect their feet from the wire. >>> If you're not familiar with it, just google its botanical name or >>> "Spanish moss" and you'll see lots of pictures. It is long and >>> stringy, but quite soft, and when bunched up it makes good padding. >>> >>> Mary >>> >>> Quoting John Sullivan : >>> >>>> Mi estimado Roberto, >>>> Ésta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustaría saber si se >>>> emplea, aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ¿se emplea de alguna >>>> manera como relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? >>>> Un abrazo, >>>> John >>>> >>>> On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hola John >>>>> >>>>> Yo sólo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan >>>>> otomíes, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los indígenas y los >>>>> mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que >>>>> parecen trasladados de Francía, y la usan para nombrar a una planta >>>>> cuyo nombre científico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece >>>>> a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras >>>>> que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color >>>>> grisáceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los >>>>> árboles. Originaria de América Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco >>>>> y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita >>>>> asociada a vegetación inundable, matorral xerófilo, pastizal, bosques >>>>> de encino y de pino. " >>>>> >>>>> A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, >>>>> la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en >>>>> visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles >>>>> en las zonas boscosas de la regón. >>>>> >>>>> Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para >>>>> estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un >>>>> adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y >>>>> religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelización, y >>>>> por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "niño >>>>> dios". >>>>> >>>>> La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo >>>>> supe en la ciudad de México que se le recomendaba para las >>>>> "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos >>>>> medicinales puedes verlos en esta página: >>>>> http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy >>>>> pequeña, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se >>>>> adhiere y cuelga de los árboles también es llamado en la región >>>>> Pachtli o Pachtle pero éste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los árboles >>>>> a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. >>>>> >>>>> Yo creo que es a partir de éste conocimiento botánico los indios >>>>> usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar >>>>> simbólicamente con el pequeño heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o >>>>> "canicula", época de máximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se >>>>> interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar >>>>> simbólicamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada >>>>> de huracanes, por lo que en la religión de estos pueblos se celebraba >>>>> respectivamente y en este órden primero la fiesta de la veintena de >>>>> Pachtontli (pequeño Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran >>>>> Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llamádas así entre los puebos de origen de >>>>> los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se >>>>> corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco >>>>> y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de >>>>> Sahagún En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los >>>>> informantes de Sahagún, éste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas >>>>> se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su >>>>> equivalencia con el calendario católico . >>>>> >>>>> Roberto Romero Gutiérrez. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : >>>>>> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with >>>>>> insects. 2. >>>>>> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic >>>>>> vines. 3. >>>>>> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick >>>>>> consistency. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 12:06:30 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:06:30 -0400 Subject: Codex Chimalpahin Message-ID: The Mexican government has purchased the Codex Chimalpahin: http://www.inah.gob.mx/boletin/2-actividades-academicas/7338-el-gobierno-de-mexico-recupera-el-codice-chimalpahin -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 315-212-0064 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 18 13:00:34 2014 From: budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr (Richard BUDELBERGER) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:00:34 +0200 Subject: Codex Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Message du 18/09/14 14:07 > De : John Schwaller > A : nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Objet : [Nahuat-l] Codex Chimalpahin > > The Mexican government has purchased the Codex Chimalpahin: > > http://www.inah.gob.mx/boletin/2-actividades-academicas/7338-el-gobierno-de-mexico-recupera-el-codice-chimalpahin Bonne nouvelle, très bonne nouvelle : « You know what ? I’m happy. » (¹)… 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSWf_yIV-d4 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 18 21:32:26 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 23:32:26 +0200 Subject: hu/n>c Message-ID: Mis estimados listeros, A problem we have all had is accepting the fact that, for example coyo:ni goes to coyoctli, then coyoctic; and chicahui/chicahua goes to chicactic. In other words, why does hu or n sometimes change to c? I have seen some explanations that point to historical phonological processes, but I think there may be a simpler explanation. We know that Nahuatl, as an agglutinating language has a smaller amount of word roots than other languages, and it uses derivational affixes to multiply versions of those word roots that can carry meaning. Probably the most basic and important derivational process in Nahuatl is verbing. A Nahuatl verbing suffix creates intransitive verbs only. Some look like they create transitive verbs, but it’s just because we are skipping over a step. Anyway, I think there is a verbing suffix that is not talked much about. It is -ca. This is the same -ca that has, for many centuries been supposedly immune to reduction, for example in cho:ca, even though we see now cho:cqui in Modern variants. This is also the same -ca that we see in all of those beautiful reduplications that go like this: coyo:ni, cocoyoca, coyo:nia:, cocoyotza. I think this verber, for some reason (maybe somebody can help with this), had two forms, -qui and -ca (this is where we get hua:qui and hua:tza, although I still don’t understand that process well), the same way that we have a -hui/-hua verber. Anyway, getting back to the argument, I have seen many examples now of derivations that don't seem to make much sense. For example, how come the applicative of cocoyotza is cocoyotzhuilia, when we know that the -hu probably came from an o. The answer is that this applicative is built on an unattested parallel version of cocoyotza, cocoyotzoa (It is unattested for this verb, but in many other forms, the two versions coexist). I went off on a tangent again. So what I think is that when coyo:ni is transformed into a patientive noun, what is actually happening is that an alternative, unattested version of coyo:ni, coyoca is used as the base for that transformation. The same goes for chica:hui/chica:hua, etc. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 12:23:19 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 08:23:19 -0400 Subject: Codex Chimalpahin Message-ID: Art Daily has a longer article about the return of the Codex Chimalpahin to Mexico: http://tinyurl.com/k4s8ohl -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 315-212-0064 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Sep 20 09:15:24 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 11:15:24 +0200 Subject: chencre Message-ID: Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which means “a person who walks with a limp.” Does anyone know where this word comes from? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Sep 20 13:30:22 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:30:22 -0400 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A bit confused, John. Is this "chencre" or "chunkier"? tlaxtlahui, Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, > There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which > means ?a person who walks with a limp.? Does anyone know where this > word comes from? > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Sep 20 13:34:18 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:34:18 -0400 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting John Sullivan : > Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, > There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which > means ?a person who walks with a limp.? Does anyone know where this > word comes from? > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > The reason I'm asking, John, is that, barring the initial syllable, the term sounds a lot like Spanish "renquear". Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 13:48:51 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:48:51 -0400 Subject: From Gordon Whittaker Message-ID: From: Gordon Whittaker Date: Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 12:43 AM Subject: Codex Chimalpahin To: "aztlan at lists.famsi.org" Cc: John Schwaller Dear list members, Please note that what has been sold to the Mexican government is NOT just the Codex Chimalpahin but also, among other things, the equally valuable earliest known versions of the historical works of Ixtlilxochitl, some of which are in his own hand. These primary sources are part of what was until now collectively known as Bible Society MS 374. I am in the process of preparing a new edition of the works of Ixtlilxochitl as recorded in BSMS 374, while Amber Brian and her colleagues are preparing a translation of the "Historia de la nación chichimeca". I hope this email makes it through to Aztlan -- for some time now all my emails sent to the list directly have failed to get through. Perhaps I'll be lucky this time! Best wishes, Gordon Whittaker _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Sep 20 20:47:34 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:47:34 -0400 Subject: chencre Message-ID: John: Looking at Northern Iroquoian languages and Algonquian languages, the former geographically wedged up between the latter, we can see how these two language families have influenced each other lexically--not at all. In other words, in the case of Iroquoian and Algonquian, there has been zero lexical borrowing across the language families even though their cheek-to-jowl living situation has been going on for over a thousand years. Siouan languages and Algonquian languages have also interfaced over the last 1000 years or so in the Midwest, but again there hasn't been much borrowing back and forth. Curiously, though, the Miami-Illinois term for the number "eight," /palaani/, is from a Siouan language. Go figure. Of course, Iroquoian, Algonquian and Siouan have borrowed from the colonizing language, English. If this is any indication of what has happened in Mexico, my hunch is that the majority of the foreign terms in HN will continue to prove to be Spanish in origin. Just a thought, Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, > There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which > means ?a person who walks with a limp.? Does anyone know where this > word comes from? > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Sep 21 07:07:54 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 09:07:54 +0200 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: <20140920093418.uxc92b5ew0ooksww@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Michael drogi and listeros, This is great, it must be the root, although I can’t find the shorter version, “renque”. I found a tweet from a Dominican woman in the US that used the expression “bajar a renque”, and I asked her what it means. I hope she answers. Has anyone seen or heard “renque” in Spanish? John > On Sep 20, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Sep 21 09:22:09 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:22:09 +0200 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: <555887057.2873.1411289915159.JavaMail.www@wwinf1g28> Message-ID: Michel, After seeing so many strange evolutions of loanwords in Nahuatl, the only time I laugh is from the pleasure of finally having solved the problem and understood the process. John > On Sep 21, 2014, at 10:58 AM, M Launey wrote: > > Ahem… I’m wary about the following suggestion, but I’ve known or heard about several cases of descendants of French soldiers from the Maximiliano expedition, with some lexical borrowings as a consequence, and chencre looks so much like French chancre (although chunkier is admittedly still less convincing). A chancre on a leg can affect someone’s ability to walk, so suppose one asks some limping French speaker « Hey, what’s the matter with you ? – J'ai un chancre », and then the word is borrowed by synecdoche. > > But OK, don’t laugh at me too nastily, I won’t put my life at stake for that. > > Best > > M.L. > > > > > > > > > > Message du 20/09/14 11:16 > > De : "John Sullivan" > > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > > Copie à : > > Objet : [Nahuat-l] chencre > > > > Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which means “a person who walks with a limp.” Does anyone know where this word comes from? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 21 08:58:35 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:58:35 +0200 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ahem… I’m wary about the following suggestion, but I’ve known or heard about several cases of descendants of French soldiers from the Maximiliano expedition, with some lexical borrowings as a consequence, and chencre looks so much like French chancre (although chunkier is admittedly still less convincing). A chancre on a leg can affect someone’s ability to walk, so suppose one asks some limping French speaker « Hey, what’s the matter with you ? – J'ai un chancre », and then the word is borrowed by synecdoche. But OK, don’t laugh at me too nastily, I won’t put my life at stake for that. Best M.L.   > Message du 20/09/14 11:16 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie à : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] chencre > > Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which means “a person who walks with a limp.” Does anyone know where this word comes from? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rgyalrongskad at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 09:32:22 2014 From: rgyalrongskad at gmail.com (Guillaume Jacques) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:32:22 +0200 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: <20140920164734.8bp2ypy4g0skwgcg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Michael, > Siouan languages and Algonquian languages have also interfaced over the > last 1000 years or so in the Midwest, but again there hasn't been much > borrowing back and forth. Curiously, though, the Miami-Illinois term for > the number "eight," /palaani/, is from a Siouan language. Go figure. > I think that it is incorrect to say that there has not been much borrowing between Algonquian and Siouan languages. In general (apart from the borrowing of the numeral "eight" from Tutelo to Miami-Illinois you mention), the direction of borrowing is from Algonquian to Siouan. Borrowings are not always easily recognizable due to a series of sound changes in Siouan (they include words such as "bow", "squash", "bear" etc). On this topic, see: Koontz, John E. 1986. Old loanwords in Mississippi Valley Siouan: archaeological implications. Paper presented at the 44th Annual PlainsConference, Denver, Colorado. Michaud, Alexis, Jacques, Guillaume & Rankin, Robert. 2012. Historical transfer of nasality between consonantal onset and vowel: from C to V or from V to C? *Diachronica* 29.2: 201–230. Guillaume -- Guillaume Jacques CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Sep 21 14:23:57 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 16:23:57 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? YAUH Present niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih Optative ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian HUALLAUH Present nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih Optative ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 21 14:23:14 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:23:14 -0400 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bonjour, Jacques, I know John's ideas on borrowings but was unaware of your Michaud's and Bob's piece. Thank you. I will read it. When I said "not much" borrowing between Siouan and Algonquian, I didn't mean "none". Best, Michael Quoting Guillaume Jacques : > Dear Michael, > > >> Siouan languages and Algonquian languages have also interfaced over the >> last 1000 years or so in the Midwest, but again there hasn't been much >> borrowing back and forth. Curiously, though, the Miami-Illinois term for >> the number "eight," /palaani/, is from a Siouan language. Go figure. >> > > I think that it is incorrect to say that there has not been much borrowing > between Algonquian and Siouan languages. In general (apart from the > borrowing of the numeral "eight" from Tutelo to Miami-Illinois you > mention), the direction of borrowing is from Algonquian to Siouan. > Borrowings are not always easily recognizable due to a series of sound > changes in Siouan (they include words such as "bow", "squash", "bear" etc). > On this topic, see: > > Koontz, John E. 1986. Old loanwords in Mississippi Valley Siouan: > archaeological implications. Paper presented at the 44th Annual > PlainsConference, Denver, Colorado. > Michaud, Alexis, Jacques, Guillaume & Rankin, Robert. 2012. Historical > transfer of nasality between consonantal onset and vowel: from C to V or > from V to C? *Diachronica* 29.2: 201?230. > > Guillaume > > -- > Guillaume Jacques > CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO > http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques > http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ > http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 21 15:00:16 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 17:00:16 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh Message-ID: Yes, this is correct, except that should be parsed /wi-ya:n/. This is the reason why, while using most of the time Carochi's script, I restore the /y/ (i.e. , while Carochi writes ). For the same reason, I write "receive" but "keep" , because of the different preterit morphology (Carochi writes ); and again, I write "hurt" but "there are deaths" (Carochi: , though he usually writes the /w/ in transitive verbs like , ). Much to my shame, I long believed that in yauh the /a/ was long (and it is written long in my grammar in French 1979), but it is definitely short. This big mistake was corrected in the English version. Best Michel Launey > Message du 21/09/14 16:24 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie à : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > Notequixpoyohuan, > Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? > YAUH > Present > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih > Optative > ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian > HUALLAUH > Present > nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih > Optative > ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 21 15:19:32 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:19:32 -0400 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <46CE5536-BE8E-4F46-BF2E-D4904F2D4153@me.com> Message-ID: This is a trick question, right, John? :) Looks good to me. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Notequixpoyohuan, > Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong > with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? > YAUH > Present > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih > Optative > ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian > HUALLAUH > Present > nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih > Optative > ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, > xihualhuian, ma hualhuian > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 21 16:18:10 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 12:18:10 -0400 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: <20140921102314.ah17wu57kk8wg4ws@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: In fact, there are actually a few loan words in Algonquian from Iroquoian, such as Munsee /káanoos/ 'kerosene' < Seneca /tka:no's/ 'oil on water'. Unami has /ya:kwého/ (or -ha) 'mammoth?' < Seneca 'Great Bear, Naked Bear' (supposedly it means 'it's body is high'). There seems to be a Mohawk loan in Cuoq's Algonquin: 'bean'). The point was to suggest to John Sullivan that it be a better use of one's time to look for Spanish borrowings into Huastecan Nahuatl than to look for Native borrowings. Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > Bonjour, Jacques, > > I know John's ideas on borrowings but was unaware of your Michaud's > and Bob's piece. Thank you. I will read it. When I said "not much" > borrowing between Siouan and Algonquian, I didn't mean "none". > > Best, > > Michael > > > Quoting Guillaume Jacques : > >> Dear Michael, >> >> >>> Siouan languages and Algonquian languages have also interfaced over the >>> last 1000 years or so in the Midwest, but again there hasn't been much >>> borrowing back and forth. Curiously, though, the Miami-Illinois term for >>> the number "eight," /palaani/, is from a Siouan language. Go figure. >>> >> >> I think that it is incorrect to say that there has not been much borrowing >> between Algonquian and Siouan languages. In general (apart from the >> borrowing of the numeral "eight" from Tutelo to Miami-Illinois you >> mention), the direction of borrowing is from Algonquian to Siouan. >> Borrowings are not always easily recognizable due to a series of sound >> changes in Siouan (they include words such as "bow", "squash", "bear" etc). >> On this topic, see: >> >> Koontz, John E. 1986. Old loanwords in Mississippi Valley Siouan: >> archaeological implications. Paper presented at the 44th Annual >> PlainsConference, Denver, Colorado. >> Michaud, Alexis, Jacques, Guillaume & Rankin, Robert. 2012. Historical >> transfer of nasality between consonantal onset and vowel: from C to V or >> from V to C? *Diachronica* 29.2: 201?230. >> >> Guillaume >> >> -- >> Guillaume Jacques >> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO >> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques >> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ >> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 21 16:28:17 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:28:17 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <46CE5536-BE8E-4F46-BF2E-D4904F2D4153@me.com> Message-ID:   Dear listeros There happened strange deletions in my latest message. I hope this one will be understandable. M.L.   (My full message)   Yes, this is correct, except that huian should be parsed /wi-ya:n/. This is the reason why, while using most of the time Carochi's script, I write the y (i.e. huiyān, while Carochi writes huiān). For the same reason, I write celia but piya, because of the different preterit morphology (Carochi writes pia); and again, I write cocoa "hurt" but micōhua "there are deaths" (Carochi: micōa, though he usually writes the /w/ in transitive verbs like pōhua, cōhua). Much to my shame, I long believed that in yauh the /a/ was long (and it is written long in my grammar in French 1979), but it is definitely short. This big mistake was corrected in the English version Best Michel Launey   > Message du 21/09/14 16:24 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie à : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > Notequixpoyohuan, > Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? > YAUH > Present > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih > Optative > ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian > HUALLAUH > Present > nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih > Optative > ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Sep 21 16:51:09 2014 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:51:09 -0500 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <46CE5536-BE8E-4F46-BF2E-D4904F2D4153@me.com> Message-ID: Dear John: They look pretty good to me. The only changes I would make –following Andrews (2003: 90-99), Campbell & Karttunen (1989), Carochi (2001: 150-166), and Lockhart (2001: 64, 65)– would be to mark the long vowels (a:), add the particle ma: to the second person forms, and include the regional variants tiyahui, anyahui, and yahui, mentioned by Lockhart in a footnote to Carochi (2001: 159, n. 6) and discussed by Canger (2011: 248), who explains that tihuih, anhuih, and huih are reduced forms used by the inhabitants of Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco. The paradigms thus modified would look like this: YAUH Present niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih (tiyahui), anhuih (anyahuih), huih (yahui) Optative ma: niyauh, ma: xiyauh, ma: yauh, ma: tihuia:n, ma: xihuia:n, ma: huia:n HUALLAUH Present nihua:llauh, tihua:llauh, hua:llauh, tihua:lhuih, anhua:lhuih, hua:lhuih Optative ma: nihua:llauh, ma: xihua:llauh, ma: hua:llauh, ma: tihua:lhuia:n, ma: xihua:lhuia:n, ma: hua:lhuia:n References: ANDREWS, J. Richard (2003). Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances (1989). Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: Text and exercises, Missoula, The University of Montana. CANGER, Una (2011). “El nauatl urbano de Tlatelolco/Tenochtitlan, resultado de convergencia entre dialectos, con un esbozo brevísimo de la historia de los dialectos,” in Estudios de Cultura Náhuatl (Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México), no. 42, pp. 243-258. CAROCHI, Horacio (2001). Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, translator and editor, Stanford/Los Angeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. LOCKHART, James (2001). Nahuatl as written, lessons in older written Nahuatl, with copious examples and texts, Stanford/Los Angeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. Best regards, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de John Sullivan Enviado el: domingo, 21 de septiembre de 2014 09:24 a. m. Para: list nahuatl discussion Asunto: [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh Notequixpoyohuan, Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? YAUH Present niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih Optative ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian HUALLAUH Present nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih Optative ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Sep 21 18:15:04 2014 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 13:15:04 -0500 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <001501cfd5bc$3e8a6960$bb9f3c20$@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: Sorry, in my haste I omitted some saltillos (on tiyahuih, anyahuih, and yahuih). Here it goes again: YAUH Present niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih (tiyahuih), anhuih (anyahuih), huih (yahuih) Optative ma: niyauh, ma: xiyauh, ma: yauh, ma: tihuia:n, ma: xihuia:n, ma: huia:n HUALLAUH Present nihua:llauh, tihua:llauh, hua:llauh, tihua:lhuih, anhua:lhuih, hua:lhuih Optative ma: nihua:llauh, ma: xihua:llauh, ma: hua:llauh, ma: tihua:lhuia:n, ma: xihua:lhuia:n, ma: hua:lhuia:n _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Sep 21 22:49:30 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:49:30 -0400 Subject: hu/n>c Message-ID: Hey John and listeros, When I read that Nahuatl verbing suffixes create only intransitive verbs, I noticed that my mouth opened and I think my heart-rate increased. So I went through some word lists and came up with some examples of one type of verbing: acalli nin[o]acalhuia I ride in a boat for pleasure ahhuatl nechahhuahuia he scratches me with a thorn ahmolli nin[o]ahmolhuia I soap myself amatl nicamahuia I wrap it with paper amochitl nicamochihuia I cover it with tin camanalli nitecacamanalhuia I tell jests to someone ciyacatl nitlaciyacahuia I hold something under my arm eztli nin[o]ezhuia I bleed huictli nitlahuichuia I hoe ixtli nitlaixhuia I level something nenepilli nitlaixnenepilhuia I lick the surface of something izhuatl nitlaizhuahuia I rub something with leaves iztatl nitlaiztahuia I salt something mahpilli nitemahpilhuia I point at someone matlatl nicmatlahuia I catch it with a net metztli mometzhuia she has her monthly period molicpitl temolicpihuia he elbows someone nexayotl quinexayohuia he treats it with ashes and water octli mochuia he gets drunk Is there a better way to look at words like these? Joe Quoting John Sullivan : > Mis estimados listeros, > A problem we have all had is accepting the fact that, for example > coyo:ni goes to coyoctli, then coyoctic; and chicahui/chicahua goes > to chicactic. In other words, why does hu or n sometimes change to c? > I have seen some explanations that point to historical phonological > processes, but I think there may be a simpler explanation. We know > that Nahuatl, as an agglutinating language has a smaller amount of > word roots than other languages, and it uses derivational affixes to > multiply versions of those word roots that can carry meaning. > Probably the most basic and important derivational process in Nahuatl > is verbing. A Nahuatl verbing suffix creates intransitive verbs only. > Some look like they create transitive verbs, but it's just because we > are skipping over a step. Anyway, I think there is a verbing suffix > that is not talked much about. It is -ca. This is the same -ca that > has, for many centuries been supposedly immune to reduction, for > example in cho:ca, even though we see now cho:cqui in Modern > variants. This is also the same -ca that we see in all of those > beautiful reduplications that go like this: coyo:ni, cocoyoca, > coyo:nia:, cocoyotza. I think this verber, for some reason (maybe > somebody can help with this), had two forms, -qui and -ca (this is > where we get hua:qui and hua:tza, although I still don't understand > that process well), the same way that we have a -hui/-hua verber. > Anyway, getting back to the argument, I have seen many examples now > of derivations that don't seem to make much sense. For example, how > come the applicative of cocoyotza is cocoyotzhuilia, when we know > that the -hu probably came from an o. The answer is that this > applicative is built on an unattested parallel version of cocoyotza, > cocoyotzoa (It is unattested for this verb, but in many other forms, > the two versions coexist). I went off on a tangent again. So what I > think is that when coyo:ni is transformed into a patientive noun, > what is actually happening is that an alternative, unattested version > of coyo:ni, coyoca is used as the base for that transformation. The > same goes for chica:hui/chica:hua, etc. > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Sep 21 21:28:46 2014 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 16:28:46 -0500 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <375839777.12759.1411316897882.JavaMail.www@wwinf1c10> Message-ID: Michel, what you mention is important, and coincides with what Canger wrote in the article I mentioned earlier today. So it looks like this would be a more precise presentation of these paradigms: ************************************************* YAUH Present niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih (tiyahuih), anhuih (anyahuih), huih (yahuih) Optative ma: niyauh, ma: xiyauh, ma: yauh, ma: tihuiya:n, ma: xihuiya:n, ma: huiya:n HUALLAUH Present nihua:llauh, tihua:llauh, hua:llauh, tihua:lhuih, anhua:lhuih, hua:lhuih Optative ma: nihua:llauh, ma: xihua:llauh, ma: hua:llauh, ma: tihua:lhuiya:n, ma: xihua:lhuiya:n, ma: hua:lhuiya:n ************************************************* Listeros, do we have a consensus on this? Can we speak of an irregular plural optative suffix -y:an, used instead of the plural optative suffix -ca:n, with the irregular verbs ya/yauh/hui and hua:lla:/hua:llauh/hua:lhui? Or is there a better way to describe the suffix -ya:n that appears in these plural optative forms? Like Michael, I'm curious about what John had in mind when he posted the initial question. Best, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de M Launey Enviado el: domingo, 21 de septiembre de 2014 11:28 a. m. Para: John Sullivan; list nahuatl discussion Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh Dear listeros There happened strange deletions in my latest message. I hope this one will be understandable. M.L. (My full message) Yes, this is correct, except that huian should be parsed /wi-ya:n/. This is the reason why, while using most of the time Carochi's script, I write the y (i.e. huiyān, while Carochi writes huiān). For the same reason, I write celia but piya, because of the different preterit morphology (Carochi writes pia); and again, I write cocoa "hurt" but micōhua "there are deaths" (Carochi: micōa, though he usually writes the /w/ in transitive verbs like pōhua, cōhua). Much to my shame, I long believed that in yauh the /a/ was long (and it is written long in my grammar in French 1979), but it is definitely short. This big mistake was corrected in the English version Best Michel Launey > Message du 21/09/14 16:24 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie à : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > Notequixpoyohuan, > Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? > YAUH > Present > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih > Optative > ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian > HUALLAUH > Present > nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih > Optative > ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 21 22:40:28 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 00:40:28 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <001701cfd5e3$06e72da0$14b588e0$@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: Yes, yauh is one of the two irregular verbs in classical Nahuatl (the other is câ, /ka’/, or cah if you like; the other so-called irregular ones like mani, onoc are defective, not irregular). There is no other example of a plural suffix –yān. By the way, I object to considering huāllauh as a verb of its own, and I’m afraid that in so doing, many colonial and modern grammarians are influenced by the fact that in European languages there are two different verbs to translate yauh and huāllauh. But it is clearly huāl- + yauh, with the directional prefix huāl- which marks ‘motion toward’ (so huāl-yauh is ‘go closer’). Since huāl- is widely used with all kind of verbs, there is no reason to treat differently yauh vs. huāl-lauh and, say, ēhua vs. huāl-ēhua, mo-cuepa vs. huāl-mo-cuepa etc. Moreover, the paradigm has two prefixes, huāl- (motion toward) and on- (motion away), the latter being of still more frequent use. So there is no reason either to treat huāl-lauh differently from on-yauh ‘go away’. Best Michel Launey > Message du 21/09/14 23:29 > De : "David Wright" > A : "'M Launey'" , "'John Sullivan'" , "'list nahuatl discussion'" > Copie à : > Objet : RE: [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > Michel, what you mention is important, and coincides with what Canger wrote in the article I mentioned earlier today. So it looks like this would be a more precise presentation of these paradigms: > > ************************************************* > YAUH > > Present > > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih (tiyahuih), anhuih (anyahuih), huih (yahuih) > > Optative > > ma: niyauh, ma: xiyauh, ma: yauh, ma: tihuiya:n, ma: xihuiya:n, ma: huiya:n > > HUALLAUH > > Present > > nihua:llauh, tihua:llauh, hua:llauh, tihua:lhuih, anhua:lhuih, hua:lhuih > > Optative > > ma: nihua:llauh, ma: xihua:llauh, ma: hua:llauh, ma: tihua:lhuiya:n, ma: xihua:lhuiya:n, ma: hua:lhuiya:n > ************************************************* > > Listeros, do we have a consensus on this? > > Can we speak of an irregular plural optative suffix -y:an, used instead of the plural optative suffix -ca:n, with the irregular verbs ya/yauh/hui and hua:lla:/hua:llauh/hua:lhui? Or is there a better way to describe the suffix -ya:n that appears in these plural optative forms? > > Like Michael, I'm curious about what John had in mind when he posted the initial question. > > Best, > > David > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de M Launey > Enviado el: domingo, 21 de septiembre de 2014 11:28 a. m. > Para: John Sullivan; list nahuatl discussion > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > > > Dear listeros > > There happened strange deletions in my latest message. I hope this one will be understandable. > M.L. > > > > (My full message) > > > > Yes, this is correct, except that huian should be parsed /wi-ya:n/. This is the reason why, while using most of the time Carochi's script, I write the y (i.e. huiyān, while Carochi writes huiān). For the same reason, I write celia but piya, because of the different preterit morphology (Carochi writes pia); and again, I write cocoa "hurt" but micōhua "there are deaths" (Carochi: micōa, though he usually writes the /w/ in transitive verbs like pōhua, cōhua). > > Much to my shame, I long believed that in yauh the /a/ was long (and it is written long in my grammar in French 1979), but it is definitely short. This big mistake was corrected in the English version > > Best > > > Michel Launey > > > > > > > > > > > > > Message du 21/09/14 16:24 > > De : "John Sullivan" > > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > > Copie à : > > Objet : [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > > > Notequixpoyohuan, > > Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? > > YAUH > > Present > > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih > > Optative > > ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian > > HUALLAUH > > Present > > nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih > > Optative > > ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian > > John > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 00:50:42 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 20:50:42 -0400 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh Message-ID: Quoting M Launey : > By the way, I object to considering hu?llauh as a verb of its own, > and I?m afraid that in so doing, many colonial and modern grammarians > are influenced by the fact that in European languages there are two > different verbs to translate yauh and hu?llauh. But it is clearly > hu?l- + yauh, with the directional prefix hu?l- which marks ?motion > toward? (so hu?l-yauh is ?go closer?). Dear Dr. Launey: This is a very good point, and it is certainly one that students need to hear about. At the same time, I'm not sure what "modern grammarians" you are referring to above. Modern grammarians do in fact address this issue, and quite well. J. Richard Andrews (1975) in _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_, p. 67, says, "This verb consists of the directional prefix hua:l and the verb (ya) ~ (yauh) ~ hui. The directional prefix is fused to the stem. Since /l/ + /y/ > /ll/, the stem (ya) is spelled (la) and the stem (yauh), (lauh)." Sullivan's contemporaneous publication _Compendio de la Gramatica Nahuatl_, which is a lovely book despite its quirks or lacks, states "El verbo huallauh" esta' compuesto del adverbio hual, 'hacia aca'' y yauh, 'ir', y literalmente significa 'ir hacia aca''." (p. 250). Karttunen's and Campbell's "Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar" (vol. 1, p. 47) says, "This verb is composed of the prefix hua:l- 'hither' in this direction' added to the stems of verbs 'to go'. When l is directly followed by y, the y assimilates to the l, resulting in ll rather than ly." Best regards, Michael McCafferty _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Sep 22 10:27:14 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:27:14 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <20140921111932.7tyubcty8go4oo4o@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Ok, I should have explained why I wrote requesting verification of the pardigms. We (Rodrigo and Andrea Martínez Baracs and I) are currentlly editing the translation of Jim Lockhart’s Nahuatl as Written for publication early next year in Spanish. And I have come across the following problem. Here is a selection from page 65, at the end of Section B.1. in Chapter 11. The discussion centers on the optative of yauh and huallauh. The first sentence seems to imply that the singular optative forms of yauh are base on hui. This is a mistake that I have corrected in the translation. And there is no need to comment on the spelling of the impersonal forms, since Jim himself does this in a different part of the text. The most interesting thing is in the second section. Here, the implication is that the singular optative forms of huallauh are indeed ma nihualhui, xihualhui and ma hualhui. These are not the forms that I learned: I learned ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh and ma huallauh. Andrews does not give full paradigms, but that suggests that he wants us to fill in the missing forms based the yauh paradigm. The PROBLEM is that Prem’s grammar charts (given to me by Justyna Olko, who studied Classical Nahuatl under him) gives the singular optative of huallauh as ma nihualhui, xihualhui and ma hualhui, and this jives with Jim’s idea in NAW. I would appreciate enlighten(ing/ed) comments about this. Are we dealing with different colonial sources that were written based on different variants of the language? Perhaps, as David did, we need to include all attested variations of these forms in our grammar charts, i.e., yauh, hui, yahui; although as we progress we’re probably going to find that there were as many variations then as now, so, yahue, yohui, youh, etc. John The optative is based on hui; the plural is irregular, without the c of the suffix -can; xihuian, “go (pl.)!” The impersonal is also from hui, huiloa. The imperfect and impersonal have variants based on ya (yaya, yaloa), but they are not often seen in documents. Huallauh, “to come,” runs parallel to yauh in everything, since it is merely hual-yauh plus automatic assimilation. Thus the present is nihuallauh, tihualhui, preterit nihualla, imperfect nihualhuia, future nihuallaz, optative ma nihualhui, etc. (NAW, p.65) > On Sep 21, 2014, at 5:19 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > > This is a trick question, right, John? :) > > Looks good to me. > > Michael > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > >> Notequixpoyohuan, >> Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong >> with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? >> YAUH >> Present >> niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih >> Optative >> ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian >> HUALLAUH >> Present >> nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih >> Optative >> ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, >> xihualhuian, ma hualhuian >> John >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Sep 22 10:48:11 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:48:11 +0200 Subject: hu/n>c In-Reply-To: <20140921184930.il00ec8qcc8cwsws@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, 1. I firmly believe (sounds like the beginning of the creed or an act of contrition) that -huia is indeed an applicative suffix, built on an unattested base of the -oa intransitive verber. Y es más, I think that when -oa looses the final -a and and goes into its combining form, the -o collapses into the -hu that it probably originated as in the first place, and then all we do is add the normal -ia applicative suffix (Amen). 2. As far as the intransitive -oa goes, I think it also can be broken down, although I haven’t thought it through. The -o or -hu(i) was probably an impersonal verber, and the -a is a valence adder (I think that pretty much all transitive verbs ending in a, including causatives and benefactives, use this -a), which in this case adds a subject. 3. And I think that -ia consists of two morphemes, but that’s another topic. John > On Sep 22, 2014, at 12:49 AM, Campbell, R. Joe wrote: > > > Hey John and listeros, > > When I read that Nahuatl verbing suffixes create only intransitive verbs, > I noticed that my mouth opened and I think my heart-rate increased. So > I went through some word lists and came up with some examples of one type of verbing: > > acalli nin[o]acalhuia I ride in a boat for pleasure > > ahhuatl nechahhuahuia he scratches me with a thorn > > ahmolli nin[o]ahmolhuia I soap myself > > amatl nicamahuia I wrap it with paper > > amochitl nicamochihuia I cover it with tin > > camanalli nitecacamanalhuia I tell jests to someone > > ciyacatl nitlaciyacahuia I hold something under my arm > > eztli nin[o]ezhuia I bleed > > huictli nitlahuichuia I hoe > > ixtli nitlaixhuia I level something > > nenepilli nitlaixnenepilhuia I lick the surface of something > > izhuatl nitlaizhuahuia I rub something with leaves > > iztatl nitlaiztahuia I salt something > > mahpilli nitemahpilhuia I point at someone > > matlatl nicmatlahuia I catch it with a net > > metztli mometzhuia she has her monthly period > > molicpitl temolicpihuia he elbows someone > > nexayotl quinexayohuia he treats it with ashes and water > > octli mochuia he gets drunk > > Is there a better way to look at words like these? > > Joe > > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > >> Mis estimados listeros, >> A problem we have all had is accepting the fact that, for example >> coyo:ni goes to coyoctli, then coyoctic; and chicahui/chicahua goes >> to chicactic. In other words, why does hu or n sometimes change to c? >> I have seen some explanations that point to historical phonological >> processes, but I think there may be a simpler explanation. We know >> that Nahuatl, as an agglutinating language has a smaller amount of >> word roots than other languages, and it uses derivational affixes to >> multiply versions of those word roots that can carry meaning. >> Probably the most basic and important derivational process in Nahuatl > >> is verbing. A Nahuatl verbing suffix creates intransitive verbs only. > >> Some look like they create transitive verbs, but it's just because we >> are skipping over a step. Anyway, I think there is a verbing suffix >> that is not talked much about. It is -ca. This is the same -ca that >> has, for many centuries been supposedly immune to reduction, for >> example in cho:ca, even though we see now cho:cqui in Modern >> variants. This is also the same -ca that we see in all of those >> beautiful reduplications that go like this: coyo:ni, cocoyoca, >> coyo:nia:, cocoyotza. I think this verber, for some reason (maybe >> somebody can help with this), had two forms, -qui and -ca (this is >> where we get hua:qui and hua:tza, although I still don't understand >> that process well), the same way that we have a -hui/-hua verber. >> Anyway, getting back to the argument, I have seen many examples now >> of derivations that don't seem to make much sense. For example, how >> come the applicative of cocoyotza is cocoyotzhuilia, when we know >> that the -hu probably came from an o. The answer is that this >> applicative is built on an unattested parallel version of cocoyotza, >> cocoyotzoa (It is unattested for this verb, but in many other forms, >> the two versions coexist). I went off on a tangent again. So what I >> think is that when coyo:ni is transformed into a patientive noun, >> what is actually happening is that an alternative, unattested version >> of coyo:ni, coyoca is used as the base for that transformation. The >> same goes for chica:hui/chica:hua, etc. >> John >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Mon Sep 22 09:35:54 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:35:54 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh Message-ID:    "Michael McCafferty" wrote > > At the same time, I'm not sure what "modern grammarians" you are > referring to above. Modern grammarians do in fact address this issue, > and quite well. > > J. Richard Andrews (1975) in _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_, p. > 67, says, (...)  Sullivan's contemporaneous publication (...) > Karttunen's and Campbell's "Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar" (vol. > 1, p. 47) says, (...)     I say "many", not all. Let me put it this way: there are still (many? I can delete that if you like) people who list yauh and huallauh as two different verbs, and in my opinion they are wrong. Those who do not are right. I hope this settles the (minor) issue. M.L. > >     > By the way, I object to considering hu?llauh as a verb of its own, > > and I?m afraid that in so doing, many colonial and modern grammarians > > are influenced by the fact that in European languages there are two > > different verbs to translate yauh and hu?llauh. But it is clearly > > hu?l- + yauh, with the directional prefix hu?l- which marks ?motion > > toward? (so hu?l-yauh is ?go closer?). > > > Best regards, > > Michael McCafferty         _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 10:31:34 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 06:31:34 -0400 Subject: [Na. huat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <66057607.7594.1411378554946.JavaMail.www@wwinf1e23> Message-ID: No, I don't think that solves the problem, sir. Who are these "many"? It would be good to know that. Quoting M Launey : >   > >  "Michael McCafferty" wrote > >> >> At the same time, I'm not sure what "modern grammarians" you are >> referring to above. Modern grammarians do in fact address this issue, >> and quite well. >> >> J. Richard Andrews (1975) in _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_, p. >> 67, says, (...)  Sullivan's contemporaneous publication (...) >> Karttunen's and Campbell's "Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar" (vol. >> 1, p. 47) says, (...) > >   > >   > > I say "many", not all. > Let me put it this way: there are still (many? I can delete that if > you like) people who list yauh and huallauh as two different verbs, > and in my opinion they are wrong. Those who do not are right. > > I hope this settles the (minor) issue. > > M.L. > > >> >> > >   > >   > >> By the way, I object to considering hu?llauh as a verb of its own, >> > and I?m afraid that in so doing, many colonial and modern grammarians >> > are influenced by the fact that in European languages there are two >> > different verbs to translate yauh and hu?llauh. But it is clearly >> > hu?l- + yauh, with the directional prefix hu?l- which marks ?motion >> > toward? (so hu?l-yauh is ?go closer?). >> > >> >> Best regards, >> >> Michael McCafferty > >   > >   > >   > >   > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From moyporfirio at hotmail.com Mon Sep 22 17:53:04 2014 From: moyporfirio at hotmail.com (Moises Aparicio) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:53:04 +0000 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: hi; i need your help; i need to know how is the pronunciation of the word Éhecatl = Cerro del viento thanks for your help. God B.Y. > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 12:00:02 -0500 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hu/n>c (John Sullivan) > 2. Codex Chimalpahin (John Schwaller) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 23:32:26 +0200 > From: John Sullivan > To: list nahuatl discussion > Subject: [Nahuat-l] hu/n>c > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Mis estimados listeros, > A problem we have all had is accepting the fact that, for example coyo:ni goes to coyoctli, then coyoctic; and chicahui/chicahua goes to chicactic. In other words, why does hu or n sometimes change to c? I have seen some explanations that point to historical phonological processes, but I think there may be a simpler explanation. We know that Nahuatl, as an agglutinating language has a smaller amount of word roots than other languages, and it uses derivational affixes to multiply versions of those word roots that can carry meaning. Probably the most basic and important derivational process in Nahuatl is verbing. A Nahuatl verbing suffix creates intransitive verbs only. Some look like they create transitive verbs, but it?s just because we are skipping over a step. Anyway, I think there is a verbing suffix that is not talked much about. It is -ca. This is the same -ca that has, for many centuries been supposedly immune to reduction, for example in cho:ca, even though we see now cho:cqui in Modern variants. This is also the same -ca that we see in all of those beautiful reduplications that go like this: coyo:ni, cocoyoca, coyo:nia:, cocoyotza. I think this verber, for some reason (maybe somebody can help with this), had two forms, -qui and -ca (this is where we get hua:qui and hua:tza, although I still don?t understand that process well), the same way that we have a -hui/-hua verber. Anyway, getting back to the argument, I have seen many examples now of derivations that don't seem to make much sense. For example, how come the applicative of cocoyotza is cocoyotzhuilia, when we know that the -hu probably came from an o. The answer is that this applicative is built on an unattested parallel version of cocoyotza, cocoyotzoa (It is unattested for this verb, but in many other forms, the two versions coexist). I went off on a tangent again. So what I think is that when coyo:ni is transformed into a patientive noun, what is actually happening is that an alternative, unattested version of coyo:ni, coyoca is used as the base for that transformation. The same goes for chica:hui/chica:hua, etc. > John > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 08:23:19 -0400 > From: John Schwaller > To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Codex Chimalpahin > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Art Daily has a longer article about the return of the Codex Chimalpahin to > Mexico: > > http://tinyurl.com/k4s8ohl > > > -- > John F. Schwaller > Professor, > University at Albany > 1400 Washington Ave. > Albany NY 12222 > > jfschwaller at gmail.com > 315-212-0064 > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 18:25:12 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:25:12 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Moises Aparicio : > hi; i need your help; i need to know how is the pronunciation of the word > Éhecatl = Cerro del viento > > thanks for your help. > God B.Y. Good question. It looks like it had two pronunciations in the old days. But first, your term means 'viento' not 'cerro del viento. For your term, Andrews has Ehehcatl. This would be phonetic [e?é?katl], where [?] is a glottal stop and [tl] is a single consonant. It's written as a digraph with the [-l] sometimes superscripted to show that release of this consonant occurs off the sides of the tongue. In some modern dialects this sound is [t] or [l]. The acute accent mark over the second [e] shows that the second syllable receives the "stress". I can't reproduce Karttunen's spelling by email font but here's the gist of it: EHE:CATL This is phonetic [e?é:katl]. Kartunnen notes that most sources evince the second pronunciation, but the one noted by Andrews is also attested according to Karttunen. Best regards, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Mon Sep 22 18:38:18 2014 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2 at cox.net) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:38:18 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: wouldn't it be ehecatepec? Like today's "Ecatepec" outside of Mexico City.... ...."Good question. It looks like it had two pronunciations in the old days. But first, your term means 'viento' not 'cerro del viento. For your term, Andrews has Ehehcatl......" _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 18:45:41 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:45:41 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <20140922143818.SQGLX.349587.imail@eastrmwml106> Message-ID: Quoting micc2 at cox.net: > wouldn't it be ehecatepec? Like today's "Ecatepec" outside of Mexico City.... > > > > ...."Good question. It looks like it had two pronunciations in the old days. > > But first, your term means 'viento' not 'cerro del viento. > > For your term, Andrews has Ehehcatl......" > Yes, that would "Cerro del viento", literally 'wind-hill-at'. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 19:17:13 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:17:13 -0400 Subject: List ettiquette Message-ID: Colleagues: We have been having some great conversations, thanks to some queries from John Sullivan, and others. For general housekeeping I would like to remind list members of a couple of suggestions, which seem to have been regularly ignored: 1. When replying, do not just hit "Reply" especially is you subscribe to the Digest. Compose a fresh message. If you do use the "Reply" function, make sure that the Subject line reflects the actual conversation not: "Re: Nahuatl Digest Vol 666, Issue 6" or the like. 2. When replying to a long conversation, PLEASE delete the older messages where possible. It is annoying to get a post which is hundreds of lines long, and quotes many, many other messages. Tlazohcamati huel miac J. F. Schwaller, List owner -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 315-212-0064 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Mon Sep 22 20:59:28 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 22:59:28 +0200 Subject: (eh)ecatl In-Reply-To: <20140922143818.SQGLX.349587.imail@eastrmwml106> Message-ID: Yes, « Cerro del viento » es Ecatepec (/eka-tepe:-k/ or possibly /e:ka-tepe:-k/) In the common word for « wind », written ehecatl, èecatl or just eecatl in the texts, we find a reduplication with saltillo. The pronunciation of the saltillo is unclear from the descriptions of classical Nahuatl. In modern dialects, you can find a glottal occlusive /Ɂ/ or spirant /h/, according to the dialect and/or the place in the word (and sometimes it is just mute), but I must confess that I'm not very proficient in modern Nahuatl dialectology. I can’t remember seeing ecatl in the corpus, but it is very common in composition, such as (precisely) Ecatepec, eca-toc-o « he is pushed by the wind », etc. (there is half a page of such compound words in Molina’s dictionary). For the length of /e/ : I do not know convincing evidence. I can’t find the word (nor the verb eheca, èeca) in Carochi’s (1645) nor in Aldama and Guevara’s (1754) grammars, that mark vowel length. Karttunen in her dictionary gives it long : ehēca = /e’ēka/. Maybe she takes some evidence from the Bancroft Dialogues, where vowel length is also marked, but she doesn't mention it and I realize that my copy of the Bancroft has been lost somewhere in my latest move. As far as I know, there is no evidence for /eɁ/. In Milpa Alta, where the saltillo would appear very clearly in this position, you find yehyecatl (with the common diphtongization of initial /e/, and an unfortunately unclear vowel length), not *yehyehcatl. I’m ready to consider other evidence. Best M.L. > Message du 22/09/14 20:44 > De : micc2 at cox.net > A : nahuatl at lists.famsi.org, "Michael McCafferty" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 > > wouldn't it be ehecatepec? Like today's "Ecatepec" outside of Mexico City.... > > > > ...."Good question. It looks like it had two pronunciations in the old days. > > But first, your term means 'viento' not 'cerro del viento. > > For your term, Andrews has Ehehcatl......" > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 23:52:45 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:52:45 -0400 Subject: a color question Message-ID: A question for those who study modern dialects: Does the color word /e:lo:tik/ "elotic" exist in your dialect(s)? If so, what color is it? Thank you. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Sep 23 02:40:00 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 21:40:00 -0500 Subject: coto:ni, cocotoca Message-ID: Listeros, Does anyone have any ideas regarding the difference in vowel length between the verb pairs involving an intransitive verb and its reduplicated form, such as coto:ni and cocotoca? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Sep 23 02:53:55 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 21:53:55 -0500 Subject: pechia Message-ID: Listeros, I think I have written to the list before about the small group of verbs, such as quechia, atimia, pechia, etc. Although quechia could be explained as coming from quetza, both atimia and pechia seem to consist of a noun root plus a verbing suffix that, along the line of Joe’s recent posting, seem to create a transitive verb. I’m still perplexed by these verbs. Any ideas? I’m especially intrested in pechia. Richard Andrews suggests a derivation (perhaps patientive) from some verb form based on petla-. One way or the other, I think the root of pechia is the noun pechtli. (And I think the root of quechia is quechtli. My impression is that their roots are either regular nouns or patientive nouns, that are (re)verbed with -i into an unattested intransitive bridge form, then made benefactive with -a. And at some point I would like to argue that all benefactive verbs are formed this way, including all -lia’s and -huia’s. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Sep 24 13:13:06 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 09:13:06 -0400 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey John and Listeros, Due to my bad bookkeeping, I can't find the statement about one of the "-ti" verbers, the 'have' one, not the 'be, become' one. Nevertheless, even in this vacuum, I wanted to present a reminder that the intransitive "-ti" occurs not infrequently without the transitivizing causative suffix "-a". If the list contains errors, I would appreciate having it pointed out. Joe apiztli apizti to be hungry caquiztli caquizti to make a clear sound cuazahuatl cuazahuati to have head mange elli elti to come to huelitl hueliti to be able huictli huicti to wield a hoe petlatl icpalli petlati icpalti to rule tequitl tequiti to work (ih)iztlacatl (ih)iztlacati to lie ixzahuatl ixzahuati to have face scabies nahuatl nahuati to have a clear sound nanahuatl nanahuati to have pustules nantli nanti to have a mother ohxitl ohxiti to have resin otztli otzti to be pregnant pahtli pahti to be cured quequelli quequelti to be dignified quiyotl quiyoti it forms a stalk tencolli tencolti it has a curved bill tenhuitztli tenhuitzti it has a pointed bill tzintli tzinti it begins xiotl xioti he has skin sores _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Wed Sep 24 21:10:09 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 23:10:09 +0200 Subject: -ti verber Message-ID: Estimados listeros y colegas First of all, note that what follows holds for Classical Nahuatl only, since my knowledge of modern dialects is somewhat scarce and superficial. To say that –ti « occurs not infrequently » is an understatement. Actually, the list of intransitive –ti verbs that occur in the corpus could amount to tens and maybe hundreds of items. I bet –ti is the most productive verbal suffix (more than –tia), and that it can be added to nearly every noun stem (except maybe proper nouns) ; and even to quite a few adverbs. See : Cuix timōztlatizquê, tihuīptlatizquê ? « Will we live until tomorrow or the day after ? », i.e. « Will we survive ? » ; Ye teōtlac-ti « It’s getting late » etc. (it seems to me that –tia could not appear in such contexts, at least I can’t remember seeing it in the corpus). The most common translation of -ti is indeed « be » or « act like », « behave like », or sometimes « become », but I suggest it could better be viewed in a more abstract sense, like : introducing tense-aspect to a notion that by itself is aspectually neutral, or stable. For instance, ‘(Ca) tēuc-tli’ means « he is a lord » (and nothing is said about how this status is acquired, lost or exerted, while ‘(Ca) tēuc-ti’ is something like « his being a lord/the fact that he is a lord is not just a timeless property, but is realized in some segment of time by actions (he acts like…, he fulfills…) or evolution, or modification, or coming to realization (he becomes…) ». This abstract meaning allows for more atypical cases like tequiti « act in such a way that the tequitl exists » or mōztlati « be able to make tomorrow exist just by living so far ». I feel my English is a bit clumsy to express that. By the way : nān-ti does not mean « have a mother », but « act like a mother » (tinānti, titàti is « you act like a mother and a father », i. e. you take care of s.o., you protect. By the way again : semantically, verbs in –tia are not causatives of verbs of –ti. For instance, Ti-tēuc-ti means « You rule, you act as a lord » or « you become a lord », but e.g. ni-mitz-tēuc-tia does not mean « I make a lord of you », but « I give you a lord », « I establish a political power for you ». There is a ditransitive use of these verbs, e.g. ni-mitz-no-teuc-tia « I take you as my lord », « I give myself a lord with you » (pardon the clumsiness again). This is interesting, because it gives us some hints about the complex derivational processes in Nahuatl morphology. For obvious reasons, everyone will say (and so will I) that in a form like ni-mitz-tla-cua-ltia we have the causative of cua (ti-tla-cua « you eat » > ni-mitz-tla-cua-ltia « I make you eat »). But let us see that otherwise. Deverbal « object nouns » in /tla-…-l-li/ like tla-cua-l-li « food, something that is eaten » can be formed very freely on transitive verb stems, so that we could analyze the causative as ni-mitz-tla-cua-l-tia « I give you food (tla-cua-l-li)", which brings us back to the ni-mitz-tēuc-tia example above. Of course, there are objections to that, since the parallel is only partial. I have chosen an example that « works », and not all causatives can be interpreted in the same way. Moreover, I have chosen an example with the indefinite object –tla-, but you can have a definite object (which in this case will be « absorbed » by the other object, e.g. ni-mitz-cua-l-tia inin nacatl « I give you this meat to eat ». Nevertheless, there is a striking morphological construction, which against shows us that Nahuatl is a highly sophisticated language. (Well, the more I see languages, the more I think all of them are sophisticated, but I have a special fondness for Nahuatl) Best Michel Launey > Message du 24/09/14 15:13 > De : "Campbell,  R. Joe" > A : "John Sullivan" > Copie à : "list nahuatl discussion" > Objet : [Nahuat-l] -ti verber > > Hey John and Listeros, > > Due to my bad bookkeeping, I can't find the statement about one of the "-ti" > verbers, the 'have' one, not the 'be, become' one. Nevertheless, even in this > vacuum, I wanted to present a reminder that the intransitive "-ti" occurs not > infrequently without the transitivizing causative suffix "-a". > > If the list contains errors, I would appreciate having it pointed out. > > Joe > > > > tequitl tequiti to work > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 25 00:01:24 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:01:24 -0500 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: <1568520565.34416.1411593009740.JavaMail.www@wwinf1p22> Message-ID: Notlazohmahuicicnihuan, Joe (and me too because he taught me) distinguishes between two -ti verbing suffixes. One means "to become or to become like" the attached noun. And this verber takes the -lia causative suffix. So, for example: tlacatl + ti = tlacati, “to become a person, to be born”, and tlacati + lia = tlacatilia, “to cause s.o. to become a person, to engender s.o.” The other -ti verber means “to have s.t.” and it only takes the -a causative suffix. So: calli + ti = calti, “to have a house”, and calti + -a = caltia, “to cause s.o. to have a house, to provide s.o. with a house”. Many people get mixed up and think that -tia is a verber that means “to provide s.o. or s.t. with s.o. or s.t.”. And besides, i still don’t think there are any verbers that make transitive verbs directly. The only -tia verber I’m aware of, although I think it will at some point be proved to have two morphemes, is the one that makes verbs related to time, such as cemilhuitia, etc. John > On Sep 24, 2014, at 16:10, M Launey wrote: > > Estimados listeros y colegas > > First of all, note that what follows holds for Classical Nahuatl only, since my knowledge of modern dialects is somewhat scarce and superficial. > > To say that –ti « occurs not infrequently » is an understatement. Actually, the list of intransitive –ti verbs that occur in the corpus could amount to tens and maybe hundreds of items. I bet –ti is the most productive verbal suffix (more than –tia), and that it can be added to nearly every noun stem (except maybe proper nouns) ; and even to quite a few adverbs. See : Cuix timōztlatizquê, tihuīptlatizquê ? « Will we live until tomorrow or the day after ? », i.e. « Will we survive ? » ; Ye teōtlac-ti « It’s getting late » etc. (it seems to me that –tia could not appear in such contexts, at least I can’t remember seeing it in the corpus). > > The most common translation of -ti is indeed « be » or « act like », « behave like », or sometimes « become », but I suggest it could better be viewed in a more abstract sense, like : introducing tense-aspect to a notion that by itself is aspectually neutral, or stable. For instance, ‘(Ca) tēuc-tli’ means « he is a lord » (and nothing is said about how this status is acquired, lost or exerted, while ‘(Ca) tēuc-ti’ is something like « his being a lord/the fact that he is a lord is not just a timeless property, but is realized in some segment of time by actions (he acts like…, he fulfills…) or evolution, or modification, or coming to realization (he becomes…) ». This abstract meaning allows for more atypical cases like tequiti « act in such a way that the tequitl exists » or mōztlati « be able to make tomorrow exist just by living so far ». I feel my English is a bit clumsy to express that. > > By the way : nān-ti does not mean « have a mother », but « act like a mother » (tinānti, titàti is « you act like a mother and a father », i. e. you take care of s.o., you protect. > > By the way again : semantically, verbs in –tia are not causatives of verbs of –ti. For instance, Ti-tēuc-ti means « You rule, you act as a lord » or « you become a lord », but e.g. ni-mitz-tēuc-tia does not mean « I make a lord of you », but « I give you a lord », « I establish a political power for you ». There is a ditransitive use of these verbs, e.g. ni-mitz-no-teuc-tia « I take you as my lord », « I give myself a lord with you » (pardon the clumsiness again). > > This is interesting, because it gives us some hints about the complex derivational processes in Nahuatl morphology. For obvious reasons, everyone will say (and so will I) that in a form like ni-mitz-tla-cua-ltia we have the causative of cua (ti-tla-cua « you eat » > ni-mitz-tla-cua-ltia « I make you eat »). But let us see that otherwise. Deverbal « object nouns » in /tla-…-l-li/ like tla-cua-l-li « food, something that is eaten » can be formed very freely on transitive verb stems, so that we could analyze the causative as ni-mitz-tla-cua-l-tia « I give you food (tla-cua-l-li)", which brings us back to the ni-mitz-tēuc-tia example above. > > Of course, there are objections to that, since the parallel is only partial. I have chosen an example that « works », and not all causatives can be interpreted in the same way. Moreover, I have chosen an example with the indefinite object –tla-, but you can have a definite object (which in this case will be « absorbed » by the other object, e.g. ni-mitz-cua-l-tia inin nacatl « I give you this meat to eat ». Nevertheless, there is a striking morphological construction, which against shows us that Nahuatl is a highly sophisticated language. > > (Well, the more I see languages, the more I think all of them are sophisticated, but I have a special fondness for Nahuatl) > > Best > > Michel Launey > > > > > > > > > Message du 24/09/14 15:13 > > De : "Campbell, R. Joe" > > A : "John Sullivan" > > Copie à : "list nahuatl discussion" > > Objet : [Nahuat-l] -ti verber > > > > Hey John and Listeros, > > > > Due to my bad bookkeeping, I can't find the statement about one of the "-ti" > > verbers, the 'have' one, not the 'be, become' one. Nevertheless, even in this > > vacuum, I wanted to present a reminder that the intransitive "-ti" occurs not > > infrequently without the transitivizing causative suffix "-a". > > > > If the list contains errors, I would appreciate having it pointed out. > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > tequitl tequiti to work > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 25 12:41:37 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:41:37 +0200 Subject: -ti verber Message-ID: Dear John and listeros I’m puzzled by this translation -ti = « have ». I’m away for a week from my books, and I will check as soon as I can, but I can’t remember a single clear occurrence in the Classical Nahuatl corpus of a –ti verb meaning « have ». To express « I have a mother », in the usual, straightforward sense, I know two ways. The most common one is ‘ni-nān-ê’ (or ni-nān-eh, if you like), i.e. something like « I’m mothered ». The other one, less frequent, is ‘on-câ (or oncah) no-nān’, lit. « My mother exists ». Milpa Alta and possibly quite a few other modern dialects have developed piya, originally « keep » or « have by/on oneself » (custodiar, o llevar encima) corresponding to most uses of Spanish « tener », and so in these dialects you would say ‘nicpiya nonan’. It may be the case that some modern dialects say ‘ninanti’, but again this lacks in Classical Nahuatl. We also have to be careful about the so-called « meaning » of verbs like « have » or « be » in languages that do have such verbs. The fact that these verbs lack in many other languages, and that such languages nevertheless express pretty well the same notions and relations, shows that « have » or « be » actually mark a complex set of relations, and if we try to find what is common to these relations (for instance in « have a mother », « have a house », « have to » (as a duty or a necessity), « have s.o. do sth. » (causative sense) or « have read » (past perfect)), we come to abstract relations such as « mutual position of two entities or two notions ». So, although I do not remember so, it may be the case that some compound words NS (Noun Stem) + -ti can be translated by « have » in English, but it would certainly be an atypical subcase of the use of « have » in English, and certainly different from « have a mother » or « have a house », which are expressed by possessive nouns (in /-e’/ or /-wa’/) or with the existential oncâ. There obviously is a dissymetry between –ti verbs based on animate vs. inanimate nouns. While cal-tia is amply attested in the corpus, I don’t think you will find cal-ti, and if you do, it will mean « be a house » which is nevertheless improbable (because a house is a house, and you can hardly introduce aspect « behave like a house »), or more likely « act in such a way that a house exists », i.e. « make a house », like tequiti « make the tequitl ». But I don’t remember having seen any of these uses of a possible cal-ti. So you may be right is saying that –tia has to be analyzed –ti+ a, if this is the way I understand your claim that there are no direct transitive verbers (even if the case of –huia remains), but the semantic relation of –ti vs. –tia verbs is definitely not a causative, but rather an applicative one. Maybe we should again consider that all this sums up to abstract relations, and that –tia (or maybe just the final –a) does not basically mark causation, but the presence of an adjunct, a new participant to the process, that can be interpreted as a dative (in the case of applicatives) or a « « new » agent (in the case of causative). Sorry to be long once more, but the issue is indeed interesting. One more remark. I confirm the existence of an intransitive –tia in verbs like cemilhuitia, cexiuhtia « spend a (whole) day, a (whole) year ». I must confess I have no satisfying explanation so far. Best Michel > Message du 25/09/14 02:01 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "M Launey" > Copie à : "Campbell R. Joe" , "list nahuatl discussion" > Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] -ti verber > >Notlazohmahuicicnihuan, Joe (and me too because he taught me) distinguishes between two -ti verbing suffixes. One means "to become or to become like" the attached noun. And this verber takes the -lia causative suffix. So, for example: tlacatl + ti = tlacati, “to become a person, to be born”, and tlacati + lia = tlacatilia, “to cause s.o. to become a person, to engender s.o.” The other -ti verber means “to have s.t.” and it only takes the -a causative suffix. So:  calli + ti = calti, “to have a house”, and calti + -a = caltia, “to cause s.o. to have a house, to provide s.o. with a house”. Many people get mixed up and think that -tia is a verber that means “to provide s.o. or s.t. with s.o. or s.t.”. And besides, i still don’t think there are any verbers that make transitive verbs directly. The only -tia verber I’m aware of, although I think it will at some point be proved to have two morphemes, is the one that makes verbs related to time, such as cemilhuitia, etc. John   _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 25 15:34:14 2014 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:34:14 -0700 Subject: Jalisco Nahuatl Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From clayton at indiana.edu Thu Sep 25 19:06:56 2014 From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:06:56 -0400 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: <1037750716.16711.1411648897134.JavaMail.www@wwinf1p02> Message-ID: Michel and Listeros, As John said, in Joe’s system, which parallels Andrews' in this regard, he has two ti- verbers: v01a ti- 'be', 'become', and v04 'have'. V01a forms its causative by adding -lia (caus04), while v04 forms its causative by adding -a (caus08). Below are some examples of intransitive verbs in v04 -ti- 'have' (from Joe's list of 9/24. For transparency, I am not using Joe’s numbering for pronimal prefixes. These examples are taken from his databases). ontzinti 'it begins' FC bk 8 o:n-tzi:ntli- v04 'it has a beginning'. tzinti 'començarse algo' 55m = 'for something to have a beginning' cf. nitlatzintia 'comenzar algo', 'fundar o principiar alguna cosa' m55 = to cause something to have a beginning' ohxiti 'it has resin' FC bk 11 ohza-l2-v04 ahnihueliti 'no poder o no tener oportunidad para hazer algo' 55m, 71m1, 71m2 cf. nitehuelitia 'dar facultad, poder y autoridad a otro para hazer algo 71m2 huictih 'they wield a hoe' FC bk7 nitequiti 'servuir el esclauo' 71m1, 'contribuir dar tributo' 55m, 'obra dar' 55m = ‘for a slave to have work, duty’ cf. nitetequitia 'ocupar a otro dandole algun tequiuh' 71m1; repartir tequios' 71m1 = ‘I give someone work, a duty’. ompahtih ‘they get well’FC Bk12 = ‘They have medicine’ opahtic ‘he got well’ FC Bk 10 = ‘He had medicine’ cf. nimitzpahtia ‘I cure you” FC Bk 5 = ‘I cause you to have medicine’ cf. nitepahtia ‘sanar a otro’ 55m, 71m1, 71m2 = ‘I cause someone to have medicine’ Indeed, v04 with the causative is more common. I give some additional examples below. The point is that the ti- in these cases means ‘have’ and not ‘be, become’. ninocactia 'calzar zapatos; calzarse zapatos o sandalias' ='I cause myself to have shoes' certainly not 'I cause myself to BE shoes' ninocamisahtia 'vestirse la camisa' = ‘I cause myself to have a camisa’ nicahuallocactia 'herrar bestias' = 'I cause a horse to have shoes'. ninonantia, 'tomar por madre' . = 'I cause myself to have a mother'. nitenantia 'dar aotro alguna por madre, o por madrina'. = 'I cause someone to have a mother' NOTE that the Spanish equivalents are Molina’s. They mean ‘give’ = ‘cause to have’, not ‘be/become’. naltepetzintia 'poblar cibdad o lugar'. 'to found a city' 'to start a city' = 'to cause a city to have a beginning' moamahtlapaltia 'echar ojas los arboles' 71m1, 71m2 = 'for a tree to leaf out, for a tree to cause itself to have "wings"'. nitlaayotia 'aguar algo; aguar el vino; etc.' 55m ' = 'I cause something to have watery-ness' COMPARE THE V01a for a:tl with a verber: nicatilia ‘I melt it’. = ‘I cause it to BE / BE LIKE water. This is v01a and it takes a different causative. ninocaltia 'edificar para si; edificar edificio para si' = I cause myself to have a house' nitecaltia 'edificar casa a otro' = 'I cause someone to have a house. ninochimaltia 'escudarse' = 'I cause myself to have a shield' Sometimes we see a second object. For the moment at least, these are puzzling because there is another object with no additional verbal morphology, but the meanings seem to work the same, and Molina has some variation in the number of objects with the same meanings e.g. both ninotahtia and nicnotahtia ‘tomar a otro por padre’ = ‘to cause myself to have a father. nicnaxcatia 'apropriar para si' 71m1, 'aplicar, o apropriar para si alguna cosa' 71m2, 'apropriar hazer proprio' 55m . = 'I cause myself to have a possession' niteaxcatia 'dotar hija a otra persona; dotar; enagenar' = ‘I cause someone to have a possession. Best, Mary Quoting M Launey : > > Dear John and listeros > > I?m puzzled by this translation -ti = « have ». I?m away for a week > from my books, and I will check as soon as I can, but I can?t > remember a single clear occurrence in the Classical Nahuatl corpus of > a ?ti verb meaning « have ». > > To express « I have a mother », in the usual, straightforward sense, > I know two ways. The most common one is ?ni-n?n-ê? (or ni-n?n-eh, if > you like), i.e. something like « I?m mothered ». The other one, less > frequent, is ?on-câ (or oncah) no-n?n?, lit. « My mother exists ». > Milpa Alta and possibly quite a few other modern dialects have > developed piya, originally « keep » or « have by/on oneself » > (custodiar, o llevar encima) corresponding to most uses of Spanish > « tener », and so in these dialects you would say ?nicpiya nonan?. It > may be the case that some modern dialects say ?ninanti?, but again > this lacks in Classical Nahuatl. > > We also have to be careful about the so-called « meaning » of verbs > like « have » or « be » in languages that do have such verbs. The > fact that these verbs lack in many other languages, and that such > languages nevertheless express pretty well the same notions and > relations, shows that « have » or « be » actually mark a complex set > of relations, and if we try to find what is common to these relations > (for instance in « have a mother », « have a house », « have to » (as > a duty or a necessity), « have s.o. do sth. » (causative sense) or > « have read » (past perfect)), we come to abstract relations such as > « mutual position of two entities or two notions ». So, although I do > not remember so, it may be the case that some compound words NS (Noun > Stem) + -ti can be translated by « have » in English, but it would > certainly be an atypical subcase of the use of « have » in English, > and certainly different from « have a mother » or « have a house », > which are expressed by possessive nouns (in /-e?/ or /-wa?/) or with > the existential oncâ. > > There obviously is a dissymetry between ?ti verbs based on animate > vs. inanimate nouns. While cal-tia is amply attested in the corpus, I > don?t think you will find cal-ti, and if you do, it will mean « be a > house » which is nevertheless improbable (because a house is a house, > and you can hardly introduce aspect « behave like a house »), or more > likely « act in such a way that a house exists », i.e. « make a > house », like tequiti « make the tequitl ». But I don?t remember > having seen any of these uses of a possible cal-ti. > > So you may be right is saying that ?tia has to be analyzed ?ti+ a, if > this is the way I understand your claim that there are no direct > transitive verbers (even if the case of ?huia remains), but the > semantic relation of ?ti vs. ?tia verbs is definitely not a > causative, but rather an applicative one. Maybe we should again > consider that all this sums up to abstract relations, and that ?tia > (or maybe just the final ?a) does not basically mark causation, but > the presence of an adjunct, a new participant to the process, that > can be interpreted as a dative (in the case of applicatives) or a > « « new » agent (in the case of causative). > > Sorry to be long once more, but the issue is indeed interesting. > > One more remark. I confirm the existence of an intransitive ?tia in > verbs like cemilhuitia, cexiuhtia « spend a (whole) day, a (whole) > year ». I must confess I have no satisfying explanation so far. > > Best > > Michel _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 25 18:02:32 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:02:32 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: -ti verber Message-ID: Quoting M Launey : > > > Dear John and listeros > > We also have to be careful about the so-called « meaning » of verbs > like « have » or « be » in languages that do have such verbs. I think this is a very good point. Algonquian languages don't differentiate inceptives versus statives. So there's no difference between "become angry" and "be angry", "be asleep" and "fall asleep", "be a manitou" and "become a manitou", etc. This appears to go back to Proto-Algonquian. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 25 17:57:20 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:57:20 -0400 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: <1037750716.16711.1411648897134.JavaMail.www@wwinf1p02> Message-ID: John: Like Mr. Launey I am puzzled by your idea that -ti can mean 'have'. If I say to myself "nicaltih," that sounds to me like "I became a house"...maybe playing with the kids or creating something in my imagination. It wouldn't mean "I have a house". I'm having trouble finding examples of a verb in -ti with a noun stem that means 'have'. tetl..teti...niteti...hmmm... Can you provide some examples where we find -ti meaning 'have'? That might help. Much obliged, Michael Quoting M Launey : > > > Dear John and listeros > > I?m puzzled by this translation -ti = « have ». I?m away for a week > from my books, and I will check as soon as I can, but I can?t > remember a single clear occurrence in the Classical Nahuatl corpus of > a ?ti verb meaning « have ». > > Message du 25/09/14 02:01 >> De : "John Sullivan" >> A : "M Launey" >> Copie à : "Campbell R. Joe" , "list nahuatl discussion" >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] -ti verber >> >> > calli + ti = calti, ?to have a house?, > John >   > __ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Thu Sep 25 22:19:58 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:19:58 -0500 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: <20140925135720.14vjhpecuyo48kk8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, tomahicnihuan! I think I have a good example from current nahuat: Nichanti Cuetzalan: I live in Cuetzalan; I HAVE my house in Cuetzalan. But: If it were an old house telling its story, the house could say: Mazqui nicalzol yn axcan, in nitechanti oc: although I am an old house today, I am still a house for the people/ although I am already old and run down, I can still BE a home for the people. Namechoyoltlapalohua! Tomas Amaya > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:57:20 -0400 > From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] -ti verber > > John: > > Like Mr. Launey I am puzzled by your idea that -ti can mean 'have'. If > I say to myself "nicaltih," that sounds to me like "I became a > house"...maybe playing with the kids or creating something in my > imagination. It wouldn't mean "I have a house". I'm having trouble > finding examples of a verb in -ti with a noun stem that means 'have'. > tetl..teti...niteti...hmmm... > > Can you provide some examples where we find -ti meaning 'have'? That > might help. > > Much obliged, > > Michael > > > Quoting M Launey : > > > > > > > Dear John and listeros > > > > I?m puzzled by this translation -ti = « have ». I?m away for a week > > from my books, and I will check as soon as I can, but I can?t > > remember a single clear occurrence in the Classical Nahuatl corpus of > > a ?ti verb meaning « have ». > > > > Message du 25/09/14 02:01 > >> De : "John Sullivan" > >> A : "M Launey" > >> Copie à : "Campbell R. Joe" , "list nahuatl discussion" > >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] -ti verber > >> > >> > > calli + ti = calti, ?to have a house?, > > John > > > > __ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Fri Sep 26 07:00:46 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:00:46 +0200 Subject: -ti verber Message-ID: Dear Mary, Tomas and listeros I'm going to be very hectic these next days because I'll be moving and that's exhausting -and depressing-, so please allow me a few days for a detailed answer Tomas, thanks for reminding me of chanti, which also exists in Milpa Alta, and puzzled me a moment when I heard it for the first time. Let me point out that it is chanti, not calti: it is important, I'll explain why. Mary, thanks for your examples taken from the corpus, that's food for thought at any rate. I'll try to explain why most of them are unconvincing, and analyze the ones that seem more convincing Let me just repeat what I wrote, admittedly in an awkward way, in my preceding message:   We also have to be careful about the so-called « meaning » of verbs > > like « have » or « be » in languages that do have such verbs. The > > fact that these verbs lack in many other languages, and that such > > languages nevertheless express pretty well the same notions and > > relations, shows that « have » or « be » actually mark a complex set > > of relations, and if we try to find what is common to these relations ,(....) we come to abstract relations such as > > « mutual position of two entities or two notions ». So, although I do > > not remember so, it may be the case that some compound words NS (Noun > > Stem) + -ti can be translated by « have » in English, but it would > > certainly be an atypical subcase of the use of « have » in English, > > and certainly different from « have a mother » or « have a house », > > which are expressed by possessive nouns (in /-e?/ or /-wa?/) or with > > the existential oncâ.   My point is that your apparently most convincing examples (namely: pahti and maybe hueliti) confort this position. Very interesting for me as a native French speaker is that the French word-to-word translations of your English glosses (i.e. with "avoir" instead of "have") do not come to the required meaning of the Nahuatl word. This may be part of a misunderstanding, but also a good opportunity to delve into the relevant question: what does "have" mean, or is it meaningful to speak of the meaning of "have"? But please allow me a few days   Best Michel   > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From clayton at indiana.edu Fri Sep 26 17:10:29 2014 From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 13:10:29 -0400 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: <62417272.2490.1411714846960.JavaMail.www@wwinf1e21> Message-ID: Dear Michel, You certainly have my sympathy with regard to the move. Joe and I went through that twice (last time 1980), and hope never to do it again. I will be interested to hear your comments when you have the time. I think the main point from my point of view is that, whatever the details of the meaning of 'have', this verber is different, both in form and in meaning from the other -ti verber. The meaning of nicahuallocactia 'I shoe a horse', 'I cause a horse to have shoes', involves a first person subject and can hardly involve an equation between 'I' and either 'horse' or 'shoe'. Also, the causative is formed with -a, and not with -lia, as in tlacati, 'he is born', he becomes a person', tetlacatilia 'he engenders someone', 'He causes someone to become a person, to be born'. Joe sends best wishes for the move, Mary Quoting M Launey : > Dear Mary, Tomas and listeros > > I'm going to be very hectic these next days because I'll be moving > and that's exhausting -and depressing-, so please allow me a few days > for a detailed answer > > Tomas, thanks for reminding me of chanti, which also exists in Milpa > Alta, and puzzled me a moment when I heard it for the first time. Let > me point out that it is chanti, not calti: it is important, I'll > explain why. > > Mary, thanks for your examples taken from the corpus, that's food for > thought at any rate. I'll try to explain why most of them are > unconvincing, and analyze the ones that seem more convincing > > Let me just repeat what I wrote, admittedly in an awkward way, in my > preceding message: > >   > > We also have to be careful about the so-called « meaning » of verbs >> > like « have » or « be » in languages that do have such verbs. The >> > fact that these verbs lack in many other languages, and that such >> > languages nevertheless express pretty well the same notions and >> > relations, shows that « have » or « be » actually mark a complex set >> > of relations, and if we try to find what is common to these relations > ,(....) we come to abstract relations such as >> > « mutual position of two entities or two notions ». So, although I do >> > not remember so, it may be the case that some compound words NS (Noun >> > Stem) + -ti can be translated by « have » in English, but it would >> > certainly be an atypical subcase of the use of « have » in English, >> > and certainly different from « have a mother » or « have a house », >> > which are expressed by possessive nouns (in /-e?/ or /-wa?/) or with >> > the existential oncâ. > >   > > My point is that your apparently most convincing examples (namely: > pahti and maybe hueliti) confort this position. Very interesting for > me as a native French speaker is that the French word-to-word > translations of your English glosses (i.e. with "avoir" instead of > "have") do not come to the required meaning of the Nahuatl word. This > may be part of a misunderstanding, but also a good opportunity to > delve into the relevant question: what does "have" mean, or is it > meaningful to speak of the meaning of "have"? > > But please allow me a few days > >   > > Best > > Michel > >   > >> _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From bleeming at gmail.com Sat Sep 27 19:13:41 2014 From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 15:13:41 -0400 Subject: tough one Message-ID: Listeros/as, here's one I can't crack: "centlacnepal" or perhaps "cen tlacnepal." It's from a late 16th-early 17th cent. religious text I've been working on. The paleography is very bad, but I'm pretty certain I've got the spelling right. Not sure on the spacing, though. There are two instances, here with more context: Ca ça[n] centlacnepal ocallacqui Ocnocentlacnepal oq[ui]zq[ui] This text does have frequent variations in spelling and other orthographic oddities, so perhaps this is what's happening here. Any ideas? Ben -- Ben Leeming PhD Candidate Department of Anthropology University at Albany, SUNY _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Sep 27 21:15:50 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 17:15:50 -0400 Subject: tough one In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ben, I believe it means something like 'on the other side', or even 'on the other hand'. When one is contrasting items, it is sometimes paired with cecapal 'on one side'. Michael Quoting Ben Leeming : > Listeros/as, here's one I can't crack: "centlacnepal" or perhaps "cen > tlacnepal." It's from a late 16th-early 17th cent. religious text I've been > working on. The paleography is very bad, but I'm pretty certain I've got > the spelling right. Not sure on the spacing, though. There are two > instances, here with more context: > > Ca ça[n] centlacnepal ocallacqui Ocnocentlacnepal oq[ui]zq[ui] > > This text does have frequent variations in spelling and other orthographic > oddities, so perhaps this is what's happening here. > > Any ideas? > > Ben > > -- > Ben Leeming > PhD Candidate > Department of Anthropology > University at Albany, SUNY > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From b.leeming at rivers.org Sun Sep 28 13:28:51 2014 From: b.leeming at rivers.org (Leeming, Ben) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 09:28:51 -0400 Subject: centlacnepal Message-ID: Michael, thank you. You’ve provided the clues that has helped track down PART of the mystery – the part related to “cecapal,” which you believe to be related to my “centlacnepal.” Here’s what I pulled off of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de Francisco junto a él y por otra a la linde de María [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos indígenas novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en náhuatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea López, y Constantino Medina Lima (Santa Bárbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etcétera, en otros dialectos. El sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y no locativo. Ceccapal es el "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occápal, 'por dos lados', etcétera. Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en lengua náhuatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1987), 40.] Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I can’t find any reference anywhere to “centlacnepal.” Based on what Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the “cen-“ is “one” and the “-pal” is the postposition meaning “for, by means of”? Or is the “cen” in “centlacnepal” unrelated to the “ce-“ in “cecapal” and instead “cem/n: one, entirely, wholly”? How is “-tlac-“ operating here? Is this “tlactli, upper body, torso”? I’d love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? Ben -- Ben Leeming PhD Candidate Department of Anthropology University at Albany _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 28 14:12:18 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 10:12:18 -0400 Subject: centlacnepal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Ben, I've never parsed the term. I just swallowed it whole. I think it's an extremely rare word. I can't find it in the Florentine records that Joe gives me. I imagine that the constituent morphemes are cen-tlactli-ne-pal. However, that analysis would not make it analogically similar to centlapal, which is another term used for ceccapal. Interesting! Looking forward, too, to what others have to say about it. Michael Quoting "Leeming, Ben" : > Michael, thank you. You've provided the clues that has helped track > down PART of the mystery - the part related to "cecapal," which you > believe to be related to my "centlacnepal." Here's what I pulled off > of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the > way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with > it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): > > ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de > Francisco junto a él y por otra a la linde de María > [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos indígenas > novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en > náhuatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. > Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea López, y Constantino Medina > Lima (Santa Bárbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] > > Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etcétera, en otros dialectos. El > sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y > no locativo. Ceccapal es el > "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occápal, 'por dos lados', etcétera. > Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." > [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en > lengua náhuatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, > 1987), 40.] > > Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I > can't find any reference anywhere to "centlacnepal." Based on what > Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the "cen-" is "one" and the > "-pal" is the postposition meaning "for, by means of"? Or is the > "cen" in "centlacnepal" unrelated to the "ce-" in "cecapal" and > instead "cem/n: one, entirely, wholly"? How is "-tlac-" operating > here? Is this "tlactli, upper body, torso"? > > I'd love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? > > Ben > -- > Ben Leeming > PhD Candidate > Department of Anthropology > University at Albany > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 28 15:39:50 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 17:39:50 +0200 Subject: centlacnepal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, since you ask me, I'll answer what I can (but my first name is Michel, not Dr) I'll have no access to my documents for a week or so, so my help, if any, comes from my recollection, not from the corpus. The context you quote makes sense. If I'm not mistaken, I remember examples like "centlapal calaqui, centlapal quiza" (he comes in by one side and out the other). So centlacnepal is a place name, whatever kind of place it is. And cen- is undoubtedly the usual /sem-/ "one", sometimes "whole". I would not retain tlac- in the parsing, but rather something like tla-cne-pal, which leaves the mystery of this possible -cne- stem. The only word I know which has -cne- in it is icne:lia, but I can't see any plausible semantic connection, and can it decently be parsed icne:-lia after all? Sorry to be so disheartening. I hope someone else will find out. Best Michel L. (I'm still supposed to post a message about the meaning of -ti. I swear I'll do that in the next days)     > Message du 28/09/14 15:43 > De : "Leeming, Ben" > A : "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] centlacnepal > > Michael, thank you. You’ve provided the clues that has helped track down PART of the mystery – the part related to “cecapal,” which you believe to be related to my “centlacnepal.” Here’s what I pulled off of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): > > ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de Francisco junto a él y por otra a la linde de María > [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos indígenas novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en náhuatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea López, y Constantino Medina Lima (Santa Bárbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] > > Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etcétera, en otros dialectos. El sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y no locativo. Ceccapal es el > "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occápal, 'por dos lados', etcétera. Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." > [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en lengua náhuatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1987), 40.] > > Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I can’t find any reference anywhere to “centlacnepal.” Based on what Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the “cen-“ is “one” and the “-pal” is the postposition meaning “for, by means of”? Or is the “cen” in “centlacnepal” unrelated to the “ce-“ in “cecapal” and instead “cem/n: one, entirely, wholly”? How is “-tlac-“ operating here? Is this “tlactli, upper body, torso”? > > I’d love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? > > Ben > -- > Ben Leeming > PhD Candidate > Department of Anthropology > University at Albany > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 28 16:11:40 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 12:11:40 -0400 Subject: centlacnepal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You might try looking at Thelma Sullivan's _Compendio de la Gramatica Nahuatl_. I remember that she has a wonderful collection of adverbs near the end of her book. I don't know if your term is there, though, as I don't have her book at hand right now. Michael Quoting "Leeming, Ben" : > Michael, thank you. You've provided the clues that has helped track > down PART of the mystery - the part related to "cecapal," which you > believe to be related to my "centlacnepal." Here's what I pulled off > of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the > way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with > it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): > > ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de > Francisco junto a él y por otra a la linde de María > [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos indígenas > novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en > náhuatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. > Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea López, y Constantino Medina > Lima (Santa Bárbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] > > Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etcétera, en otros dialectos. El > sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y > no locativo. Ceccapal es el > "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occápal, 'por dos lados', etcétera. > Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." > [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en > lengua náhuatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, > 1987), 40.] > > Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I > can't find any reference anywhere to "centlacnepal." Based on what > Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the "cen-" is "one" and the > "-pal" is the postposition meaning "for, by means of"? Or is the > "cen" in "centlacnepal" unrelated to the "ce-" in "cecapal" and > instead "cem/n: one, entirely, wholly"? How is "-tlac-" operating > here? Is this "tlactli, upper body, torso"? > > I'd love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? > > Ben > -- > Ben Leeming > PhD Candidate > Department of Anthropology > University at Albany > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 28 18:23:13 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 14:23:13 -0400 Subject: centlacnepal In-Reply-To: <1653891951.10078.1411918790230.JavaMail.www@wwinf1j14> Message-ID: Quoting M Launey : > > I would not retain tlac- in the parsing, but rather something like > tla-cne-pal, which leaves the mystery of this possible -cne- stem. > The only word I know which has -cne- in it is icne:lia, but I can't > see any plausible semantic connection, and can it decently be parsed > icne:-lia after all? I traveled down that same rabbit hole, too, before writing Ben, but, yes, it would be hard to get a parsing with icne:lia as one would end up with a stem ending in -l, as for example one would get with "tlacnelilli," a term referring to a person who receives favors or privileges. And then where would that lead us semantically for a term that means 'por otro lado'? I like the pathway to analysis using -cne- but I don't see where it leads. Joe, ticmati itlah? Michael > > Sorry to be so disheartening. I hope someone else will find out. > > Best > > Michel L. > > (I'm still supposed to post a message about the meaning of -ti. I > swear I'll do that in the next days) > >   > >   > >> Message du 28/09/14 15:43 >> De : "Leeming, Ben" >> A : "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" >> Copie à : >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] centlacnepal >> >> Michael, thank you. You?ve provided the clues that has helped track >> down PART of the mystery ? the part related to ?cecapal,? which you >> believe to be related to my ?centlacnepal.? Here?s what I pulled off >> of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the >> way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with >> it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): >> >> ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de >> Francisco junto a él y por otra a la linde de María >> [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos indígenas >> novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en >> náhuatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. >> Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea López, y Constantino Medina >> Lima (Santa Bárbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] >> >> Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etcétera, en otros dialectos. El >> sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y >> no locativo. Ceccapal es el >> "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occápal, 'por dos lados', etcétera. >> Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." >> [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en >> lengua náhuatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, >> 1987), 40.] >> >> Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I >> can?t find any reference anywhere to ?centlacnepal.? Based on what >> Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the ?cen-? is ?one? and >> the ?-pal? is the postposition meaning ?for, by means of?? Or is the >> ?cen? in ?centlacnepal? unrelated to the ?ce-? in ?cecapal? and >> instead ?cem/n: one, entirely, wholly?? How is ?-tlac-? operating >> here? Is this ?tlactli, upper body, torso?? >> >> I?d love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? >> >> Ben >> -- >> Ben Leeming >> PhD Candidate >> Department of Anthropology >> University at Albany >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Sun Sep 28 21:52:36 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 16:52:36 -0500 Subject: centlacnepal In-Reply-To: <20140928142313.sr2pw178hog8okok@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, tocnihuan! I have in example in nahuat. It may be helpful: Né mocalihtic in tayetoc centanepal, xitaahaccui --˃ allí dentro de tu casa todo está amontonado, descombra (in your house, everything is piled up, put the things in order) My version in Nahuatl Central: Nepa mocalihtic in tlayetoc centlanepal, xitlaahacui. But: tanepal (without “cen”) may also mean row, line, formation. SO, if you say ce tanepal you are meaning “one” row and occe tanepal, “another row”; therefore, in the mentioned text, we can suppose that the person enters in one row and goes out in another row (Spanish: entra por una hilera y sale por otra); considering “ce-tanepal” as locative. Namecoyoltapalohua. Tomas Amaya > Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 14:23:13 -0400 > From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] centlacnepal > > Quoting M Launey : > > > > > I would not retain tlac- in the parsing, but rather something like > > tla-cne-pal, which leaves the mystery of this possible -cne- stem. > > The only word I know which has -cne- in it is icne:lia, but I can't > > see any plausible semantic connection, and can it decently be parsed > > icne:-lia after all? > > I traveled down that same rabbit hole, too, before writing Ben, but, > yes, it would be hard to get a parsing with icne:lia as one would end > up with a stem ending in -l, as for example one would get with > "tlacnelilli," a term referring to a person who receives favors or > privileges. And then where would that lead us semantically for a term > that means 'por otro lado'? I like the pathway to analysis using -cne- > but I don't see where it leads. > > > Joe, ticmati itlah? > > Michael > > > > Sorry to be so disheartening. I hope someone else will find out. > > > > Best > > > > Michel L. > > > > (I'm still supposed to post a message about the meaning of -ti. I > > swear I'll do that in the next days) > > > > > > > > > > > >> Message du 28/09/14 15:43 > >> De : "Leeming, Ben" > >> A : "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > >> Copie à : > >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] centlacnepal > >> > >> Michael, thank you. You?ve provided the clues that has helped track > >> down PART of the mystery ? the part related to ?cecapal,? which you > >> believe to be related to my ?centlacnepal.? Here?s what I pulled off > >> of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the > >> way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with > >> it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): > >> > >> ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de > >> Francisco junto a él y por otra a la linde de María > >> [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos indígenas > >> novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en > >> náhuatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. > >> Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea López, y Constantino Medina > >> Lima (Santa Bárbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] > >> > >> Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etcétera, en otros dialectos. El > >> sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y > >> no locativo. Ceccapal es el > >> "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occápal, 'por dos lados', etcétera. > >> Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." > >> [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en > >> lengua náhuatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, > >> 1987), 40.] > >> > >> Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I > >> can?t find any reference anywhere to ?centlacnepal.? Based on what > >> Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the ?cen-? is ?one? and > >> the ?-pal? is the postposition meaning ?for, by means of?? Or is the > >> ?cen? in ?centlacnepal? unrelated to the ?ce-? in ?cecapal? and > >> instead ?cem/n: one, entirely, wholly?? How is ?-tlac-? operating > >> here? Is this ?tlactli, upper body, torso?? > >> > >> I?d love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? > >> > >> Ben > >> -- > >> Ben Leeming > >> PhD Candidate > >> Department of Anthropology > >> University at Albany > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Sep 2 18:58:05 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 20:58:05 +0200 Subject: charpih Message-ID: The Modern Huastecan Nahuatl word for slingshot is ?charpih?. Does anybody know where this comes from? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 18:46:14 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 13:46:14 -0500 Subject: Charpih Message-ID: In Hueyapan Spanish it is called Charpe. I think it is probably of Spanish origin. Magnus On 3 September 2014 12:00, wrote: > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. charpih (John Sullivan) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: John Sullivan > To: list nahuatl discussion > Cc: > Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 20:58:05 +0200 > Subject: [Nahuat-l] charpih > The Modern Huastecan Nahuatl word for slingshot is ?charpih?. Does anybody > know where this comes from? > John > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Sep 3 21:34:30 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 23:34:30 +0200 Subject: Charpih In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, Fantastic, thank you very much! Un abrazo, John On 03 Sep 2014, at 20:46, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > In Hueyapan Spanish it is called Charpe. I think it is probably of Spanish > origin. > Magnus > > > On 3 September 2014 12:00, wrote: > >> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. charpih (John Sullivan) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: John Sullivan >> To: list nahuatl discussion >> Cc: >> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 20:58:05 +0200 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] charpih >> The Modern Huastecan Nahuatl word for slingshot is ?charpih?. Does anybody >> know where this comes from? >> John >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 3 19:59:39 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 15:59:39 -0400 Subject: Charpih In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Your term may be related to this, John: http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=charpa Michael Quoting Magnus Pharao Hansen : > In Hueyapan Spanish it is called Charpe. I think it is probably of Spanish > origin. > Magnus > > > On 3 September 2014 12:00, wrote: > >> Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to >> nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. charpih (John Sullivan) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: John Sullivan >> To: list nahuatl discussion >> Cc: >> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 20:58:05 +0200 >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] charpih >> The Modern Huastecan Nahuatl word for slingshot is ?charpih?. Does anybody >> know where this comes from? >> John >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> >> > > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 4 17:55:40 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 19:55:40 +0200 Subject: subjects Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, We know that in Classical Nahuatl, if a verb is conjugated in the first person plural, you don?t have to mention the speaker. In other words, ?Carlos and I went to the market?, would be ?Carlos tiyahqueh tianquizco.? And if you have a group of people who are perfoming an action, you only have to name one of them as a representative of the group. I have always looked for examples of this in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, without success. Today Sabina gave an example of it in a dictionary entry. It is an example sentence for the word, ?cuacercah?, ?wood or bamboo fence?. ?Notonanan motzauctoqueh zan ica cuacercah, inihhuantin axquiamatih ica alampreh yon telah.? Toamox20140904 (CUACERCAH), ?My grandmother (and those living with her) have fenced (their property) with a wooden/bamboo fence, they don?t like it with wire or cloth.? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Sep 6 15:22:20 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 17:22:20 +0200 Subject: pipi(tl) Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, I am looking for MORE evidence of a root ?pipi(tl)?. It shows up in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl as: pipihya:ya, for meat to smell bad pipihya:c, bad smelling meat, or a person whose armpits smell bad pipitiya, for person?s hair to get tangly when it isn?t combed pipitic, tangly and smelly hair; a person who smells bad due to not bathing And in Molina [Nahuatl to Spanish 82r] pipiyayaliztli, olor a sobaquina I would like to come up with an approximation of the meaning of the noun ?pipi(tl)?. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Sep 6 18:01:56 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 14:01:56 -0400 Subject: pipi(tl) In-Reply-To: <58A1F1D2-76F4-4E88-AA36-4F02A0B10B37@me.com> Message-ID: Dear fray Alonso, Please forgive me for bothering you about a matter that may seem trivial. I recently became confused about the location of a word in your 1555 dictionary. I thought that it was on folio 82, but I saw that the following folio was 87 -- and then I saw that the preceding folio was 85. To make a long story short, it turns out that folio 85 is mis-numbered as 82 and folio 88 is mis-numbered as 84. Further, folios 9 and 12 have no number at all. Also, folio 166 is numbered as 66. Thank you for your attention to this problem. If I find anything further, I'll contact you about it. Joe _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Sep 6 18:05:44 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 14:05:44 -0400 Subject: Dear fray Alonso (previously mislabelled) In-Reply-To: <20140906140156.zy1ycalvoso8skcw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Campbell, R. Joe" : > Dear fray Alonso, > > Please forgive me for bothering you about a matter that may seem trivial. > I recently became confused about the location of a word in your 1555 > dictionary. > I thought that it was on folio 82, but I saw that the following folio > was 87 -- > and then I saw that the preceding folio was 85. > > To make a long story short, it turns out that folio 85 is > mis-numbered as 82 and folio 88 is mis-numbered as 84. Further, > folios 9 and 12 have no number at all. Also, folio 166 is numbered > as 66. > > Thank you for your attention to this problem. If I find anything > further, I'll contact you about it. > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc at cox.net Sat Sep 6 19:47:14 2014 From: micc at cox.net (micc) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 12:47:14 -0700 Subject: Dear fray Alonso (previously mislabelled) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Joe, I hate when Alonso does that!!!!! -- I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD 619.948.8861 www.mexicayotl.net www.mexicayotl.org www.mexicayotl.com www.aguila-blanca.com On 9/6/2014 11:05 AM, Campbell, R. Joe wrote: > Quoting "Campbell, R. Joe" : > >> Dear fray Alonso, >> >> Please forgive me for bothering you about a matter that may seem >> trivial. >> I recently became confused about the location of a word in your 1555 >> dictionary. >> I thought that it was on folio 82, but I saw that the following folio >> was 87 -- >> and then I saw that the preceding folio was 85. >> >> To make a long story short, it turns out that folio 85 is >> mis-numbered as 82 and folio 88 is mis-numbered as 84. Further, >> folios 9 and 12 have no number at all. Also, folio 166 is numbered >> as 66. >> >> Thank you for your attention to this problem. If I find anything >> further, I'll contact you about it. >> >> Joe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 17:32:32 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 12:32:32 -0500 Subject: Xochicuicatl Cuecuechtli Message-ID: Hi Listeros, Just wanted to share my review of Xochicuicatl Cuecuechtli billed as the first contmeporary Nahuatl opera. I was lucky enough to attend the premiere this saturday. Its libretto is based on one of the Cantares Mexicanos. The music was really good, but I was a little dismayed by how little the role of the language actually was in the performance. I would still recommend anyone interested in Nahuatl to see it if they have the chance. Here is a link to my review: http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.mx/2014/09/xochicuicatl-cuecuechtli-first.html best wishes, Magnus -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Sep 8 20:48:20 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 22:48:20 +0200 Subject: Xochicuicatl Cuecuechtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magnus, I think you hit the nail on the head when you write "the language was only an instrument to achieve an aesthetic effect, but not meant to be a language of actual communication. Kind of like a meaningless soundscape, that the Spanish supertitles then inscribed meaning onto. So is this cultural translation or is it colonizing and erasing the Nahuatl text and the voice of the Nahuas who wrote it.? This is the standard purpose for the use of Nahuatl language and glyphs in Mexican culture today: aesthetic effect. John On 08 Sep 2014, at 19:32, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote: > Hi Listeros, > > Just wanted to share my review of Xochicuicatl Cuecuechtli billed as the > first contmeporary Nahuatl opera. I was lucky enough to attend the premiere > this saturday. Its libretto is based on one of the Cantares Mexicanos. The > music was really good, but I was a little dismayed by how little the role > of the language actually was in the performance. I would still recommend > anyone interested in Nahuatl to see it if they have the chance. > > Here is a link to my review: > > http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.mx/2014/09/xochicuicatl-cuecuechtli-first.html > > best wishes, > Magnus > > -- > Magnus Pharao Hansen > PhD. candidate > Department of Anthropology > > Brown University > 128 Hope St. > Providence, RI 02906 > > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * > US: 001 401 651 8413 > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Sep 10 17:58:51 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 19:58:51 +0200 Subject: pachtli Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, I?m interested in getting at the original meaning of pachtli. It is used in so many compounds: pachihui (for heavy tree limbs to droop down) and pachoa: (to press down on s.t.), -pachcho: (s.t.?s pulp); pachontic [pachtli, ohmitl, ti, c] (fluffy, spongy fur or hair). From Molina, for pachtli we have malhojo, which is vegatable refuse such as straw, husks, cane, etc., but he seems to refer to a kind of moss that hangs from the limbs of trees also. And pachtli, in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl is the old clothing you use to stuff into pillows. Se we have hanging (moss) and spongy (vegetable refuse). Any ideas? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Sep 10 18:01:35 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 20:01:35 +0200 Subject: pachtli2 Message-ID: And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Wed Sep 10 23:29:20 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 01:29:20 +0200 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: <47814E17-DD79-4494-80D3-444EB32A5D08@me.com> Message-ID: Dear listeros John Sullivan?s mail reminded me of a pun based on vowel length, which I heard once in Milpa Alta. I only have a faint recollection of it since it was nearly 40 years ago and my working notebook is lost, but maybe a listero from Milpa Alta can check (and correct me if necessary). It was?: "ximopacho huan ximopacho" ??Ac?rcate (o posiblemente?: doblate) y saciate??. It seems to me that the first /a/ was long, and the second short, but I may be mistaken. So it seems that there are two pairs pachihui/pachoa, with long and short /a/, so couldn?t it be the case that there are two pachtic?? And how is the meaning related?? Btw, in Carochi (Book IV chap. 6 ??De los mexicanismos??) you find with a short /a/?: "In opachiuhqu? atl?, niman ic oy?qu?" ??En estando hartos de beber, luego se fueron??, which would confort my recollection. There also is an apparently puzzling form at the end of the grammar, where he gives minimal pairs with applicative forms?: "pachihuia nicno, 1a y 2a breues?: assechole, espiole?; p?chihuia nicno, saltillo en la 1a y larga la 2a?: me aprovecho de algo, como de medicina". But actually, p?chihuia is an incorporated form which has to be analyzed p?- (noun stem of pa?-tli ??medicine??) + chihuia, applicative of chihua?: i.e. ??I use sthg. as a medicine?? (Lockhart?s translation). Unfortunately, Carochi gives no minimal pair based on short vs. long /a/ with pachihui, pachoa or pachihuia. And how is the meaning ??spy on s.o.?? related to "become satiated" ? Best M.L. > Message du 10/09/14 20:02 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie ? : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] pachtli2 > > And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 01:20:36 2014 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 09:20:36 +0800 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: <47814E17-DD79-4494-80D3-444EB32A5D08@me.com> Message-ID: Hola John Yo s?lo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan otom?es, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los ind?genas y los mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que parecen trasladados de Franc?a, y la usan para nombrar a una planta cuyo nombre cient?fico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color gris?ceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los ?rboles. Originaria de Am?rica Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita asociada a vegetaci?n inundable, matorral xer?filo, pastizal, bosques de encino y de pino. " A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles en las zonas boscosas de la reg?n. Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelizaci?n, y por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "ni?o dios". La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo supe en la ciudad de M?xico que se le recomendaba para las "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos medicinales puedes verlos en esta p?gina: http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy peque?a, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se adhiere y cuelga de los ?rboles tambi?n es llamado en la regi?n Pachtli o Pachtle pero ?ste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los ?rboles a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. Yo creo que es a partir de ?ste conocimiento bot?nico los indios usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar simb?licamente con el peque?o heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o "canicula", ?poca de m?ximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar simb?licamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada de huracanes, por lo que en la religi?n de estos pueblos se celebraba respectivamente y en este ?rden primero la fiesta de la veintena de Pachtontli (peque?o Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llam?das as? entre los puebos de origen de los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de Sahag?n En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los informantes de Sahag?n, ?ste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su equivalencia con el calendario cat?lico . Roberto Romero Guti?rrez. 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : > And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. > tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. > place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 11 12:42:41 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:42:41 +0200 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mi estimado Roberto, ?sta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustar?a saber si se emplea, aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ?se emplea de alguna manera como relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? Un abrazo, John On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: > Hola John > > Yo s?lo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan > otom?es, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los ind?genas y los > mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que > parecen trasladados de Franc?a, y la usan para nombrar a una planta > cuyo nombre cient?fico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece > a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras > que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color > gris?ceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los > ?rboles. Originaria de Am?rica Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco > y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita > asociada a vegetaci?n inundable, matorral xer?filo, pastizal, bosques > de encino y de pino. " > > A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, > la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en > visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles > en las zonas boscosas de la reg?n. > > Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para > estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un > adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y > religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelizaci?n, y > por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "ni?o > dios". > > La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo > supe en la ciudad de M?xico que se le recomendaba para las > "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos > medicinales puedes verlos en esta p?gina: > http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 > > Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy > peque?a, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se > adhiere y cuelga de los ?rboles tambi?n es llamado en la regi?n > Pachtli o Pachtle pero ?ste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los ?rboles > a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. > > Yo creo que es a partir de ?ste conocimiento bot?nico los indios > usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar > simb?licamente con el peque?o heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o > "canicula", ?poca de m?ximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se > interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar > simb?licamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada > de huracanes, por lo que en la religi?n de estos pueblos se celebraba > respectivamente y en este ?rden primero la fiesta de la veintena de > Pachtontli (peque?o Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran > Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llam?das as? entre los puebos de origen de > los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se > corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco > y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de > Sahag?n En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los > informantes de Sahag?n, ?ste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas > se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su > equivalencia con el calendario cat?lico . > > Roberto Romero Guti?rrez. > > > 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : >> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. >> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. >> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 11 12:58:35 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:58:35 +0200 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: <1281662071.31693.1410391760532.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f27> Message-ID: Fran and Michel, In the Huasteca there are two pairs: 1. pachihui and pachoa with a long a. Here pachihui is what happens to a piece of fruit that falls to the ground: it is bruised and sometimes it goes splat. Pachoa is to squash something (with your foot), like a bug or a piece of fruit that is on the ground. 2. pachihui and pachoa with a short a is the set that I believe is based on the pachtli plant. pachihui is for something to hang down, but at the same time, to fill out. Here is where ?pachihui noyollo? comes in. Pachoa is to press on something, to make it bend down. When a hen sits on her eggs, it is quipachoa, and roosting in general is tlapachoa. mopachoa is to bend over, and I think this is what is meant when with the meanings of to get close to, and to examine (to bend oneself down with respect to?.). It is very appealing to me to combine the two ideas of hanging and filling out (plant refuse for stuffing, cushioning) into a single origin in the plant, pachtli. ?Queniuhqui inquiittah? John On Sep 11, 2014, at 1:29 AM, M Launey wrote: > Dear listeros > > John Sullivan?s mail reminded me of a pun based on vowel length, which I heard once in Milpa Alta. I only have a faint recollection of it since it was nearly 40 years ago and my working notebook is lost, but maybe a listero from Milpa Alta can check (and correct me if necessary). It was : "ximopacho huan ximopacho" ? Ac?rcate (o posiblemente : doblate) y saciate ?. It seems to me that the first /a/ was long, and the second short, but I may be mistaken. > > So it seems that there are two pairs pachihui/pachoa, with long and short /a/, so couldn?t it be the case that there are two pachtic ? And how is the meaning related ? > > Btw, in Carochi (Book IV chap. 6 ? De los mexicanismos ?) you find with a short /a/ : "In opachiuhqu? atl?, niman ic oy?qu?" ? En estando hartos de beber, luego se fueron ?, which would confort my recollection. > > There also is an apparently puzzling form at the end of the grammar, where he gives minimal pairs with applicative forms : > > "pachihuia nicno, 1a y 2a breues : assechole, espiole ; p?chihuia nicno, saltillo en la 1a y larga la 2a : me aprovecho de algo, como de medicina". > > But actually, p?chihuia is an incorporated form which has to be analyzed p?- (noun stem of pa?-tli ? medicine ?) + chihuia, applicative of chihua : i.e. ? I use sthg. as a medicine ? (Lockhart?s translation). Unfortunately, Carochi gives no minimal pair based on short vs. long /a/ with pachihui, pachoa or pachihuia. And how is the meaning ? spy on s.o. ? related to "become satiated" ? > > Best > > M.L. > > > > > > > > > Message du 10/09/14 20:02 > > De : "John Sullivan" > > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > > Copie ? : > > Objet : [Nahuat-l] pachtli2 > > > > And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 11 14:36:25 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 16:36:25 +0200 Subject: pachtli3 Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, I just spoke to Sabina and Abelardo at IDIEZ. They saw the picture of the plant, pachtli, and identify it as ?heno? (the word they use in Nahuatl), a kind of vine that grows on trees in the Huasteca. It is used as a base upon which the figurines of the ?nacimientos? are placed at Christmas, and also as a base for roosting hens. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 11 15:20:58 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 17:20:58 +0200 Subject: pachtli4 Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, It seems to me, following the general attitude of Richard Andrews, that we have a root, pachtli, which is a plant. And three characteristics of that plant, i.e., 1. it hangs, 2. it fills out (it is cushiony) , and 3. it is parasitic (it covers trees), are exploited through derivation to create three fields of meaning. Some examples: 1. pachihui, ?for a building to settle or for the branches of a tree to hang down. pachoa, ?to roost, to bend over, etc.? 2. pachihui, ?to be satisfied (noyollo), pachtic, ?thick consistency?. -pachca, ?consumed food that makes me feel stuffed or satisfied?. pachontic (pachtli, ohmitl, ti, c), ?thick, curly, soft fur?. 3. pachtic, ?to be covered with something (swarming flies, etc.) John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From clayton at indiana.edu Thu Sep 11 15:24:21 2014 From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 11:24:21 -0400 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, The plant, commonly known as "Spanish moss" in English, has indeed been used for stuffing pillows, mattresses, etc. I don't think I've ever seen it used that way, but I certainly heard that it was when I was a kid in Florida. We used to play with it a lot. It was reported to give one red-bugs / chiggers, but that never seemed to bother us. The "use" I recall best is that the year I was in the second grade, our next-door neighbors raised rabbits, and my brother and I helped the neighbor kids collect great quantities of it to line the rabbit hutches to protect their feet from the wire. If you're not familiar with it, just google its botanical name or "Spanish moss" and you'll see lots of pictures. It is long and stringy, but quite soft, and when bunched up it makes good padding. Mary Quoting John Sullivan : > Mi estimado Roberto, > ?sta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustar?a saber si se > emplea, aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ?se emplea de alguna > manera como relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? > Un abrazo, > John > > On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: > >> Hola John >> >> Yo s?lo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan >> otom?es, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los ind?genas y los >> mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que >> parecen trasladados de Franc?a, y la usan para nombrar a una planta >> cuyo nombre cient?fico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece >> a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras >> que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color >> gris?ceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los >> ?rboles. Originaria de Am?rica Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco >> y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita >> asociada a vegetaci?n inundable, matorral xer?filo, pastizal, bosques >> de encino y de pino. " >> >> A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, >> la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en >> visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles >> en las zonas boscosas de la reg?n. >> >> Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para >> estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un >> adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y >> religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelizaci?n, y >> por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "ni?o >> dios". >> >> La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo >> supe en la ciudad de M?xico que se le recomendaba para las >> "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos >> medicinales puedes verlos en esta p?gina: >> http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 >> >> Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy >> peque?a, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se >> adhiere y cuelga de los ?rboles tambi?n es llamado en la regi?n >> Pachtli o Pachtle pero ?ste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los ?rboles >> a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. >> >> Yo creo que es a partir de ?ste conocimiento bot?nico los indios >> usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar >> simb?licamente con el peque?o heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o >> "canicula", ?poca de m?ximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se >> interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar >> simb?licamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada >> de huracanes, por lo que en la religi?n de estos pueblos se celebraba >> respectivamente y en este ?rden primero la fiesta de la veintena de >> Pachtontli (peque?o Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran >> Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llam?das as? entre los puebos de origen de >> los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se >> corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco >> y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de >> Sahag?n En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los >> informantes de Sahag?n, ?ste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas >> se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su >> equivalencia con el calendario cat?lico . >> >> Roberto Romero Guti?rrez. >> >> >> 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : >>> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. >>> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. >>> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From cuecuex at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 18:14:39 2014 From: cuecuex at gmail.com (Roberto Romero) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 02:14:39 +0800 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hola John Hasta ?pocas recientes el pachtli o heno tuvo un uso profano en regiones rurales de esta zona del sur de Quer?taro y norte del Estado de M?xico . Se utilizaba como un relleno de desechables "cojines". Aun por las decadas de los 60 era un uso que le daban los arrieros, los pastores o gente que por alguna razon ten?a que andar y dormir por el monte y a la intemperie. Los que dormian al aire libre usaban el Pachtli o heno como relleno de una especie de almohada desechable. El pachtli era envuelto en un paliacate, pa?uelo por lo general de color rojo del tama?o de una mascada o sea mas grande que un pa?uelo. . Claro si esa planta estaba a la mano. Pero para ellos lo mas importante era llevar lo que le llamaban Shirgo, no se si asi se escriba o se diga, pero yo asi lo escucho. Este Shirgo es una indumentaria de manufactura artesanal ya en desuso en su fabricaci?n y en su uso, pues dejo de fabricarse y usarse por su costo, el cual no pudo competir contra el mas bajo precio de las llamadas "mangas" hechas de hule y en f?bricas modernas. Un ejemplar de este tipo de prenda Shirgo afortunamente se encuentra exhibido en el museo de Acambay. Es una especie de capa de gran tama?o hecha con manojos de hojas tejidas y entrelazadas de un tipo de zacate que es impermeable al agua. Esta indumentaria por la forma y el material con el que esta hecho si se desea se extiende en el suelo y se duerme sobre el, pero si llov?a o helaba les podia servir de casa de campa?a con la forma de un mini Tipi que los protegia de las inclemencias del tiempo . Es una indumentaria que parece ser no es de origen indio sino espa?ol. Recuerdo haber visto en algun expediente de inquisici?n o texto sobre el tema, que se menciono el uso del pachtli pero no me acuerdo si era como parte de algun remedio herbol?rio identificado por los denunciantes como hechicer?a o si el pachtli o heno era parte de o el relleno de un mu?eco manufacturado para hechizos, forma de brujer?a que fue muy comun en la ?poca colonial. Si recuerdo que en Ixtlixochitl se menciona que a los Se?ores Chichimecas al momento de asumir el se?or?o se les colocaba sobre sus cabezas un tocado hecho de heno, una especie de peluca . Supongo que es tambi?n una forma de otorgarles simb?licamente el control m?gico de la lluvia por la relaci?n simb?lica y ritual que me parece existe entre el Pachtli y la presencia o ausencia de lluvia. Entiendo por Chichimeca, una forma de manifestaci?n de la cultura mesoamerica de tipo no urbano, no se?alo con chichimeca a las peque?as bandas de cazadores recolectores . Roberto Romero Gutierrez El 11/9/14, John Sullivan escribi?: > Mi estimado Roberto, > ?sta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustar?a saber si se emplea, > aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ?se emplea de alguna manera como > relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? > Un abrazo, > John > > On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: > >> Hola John >> >> Yo s?lo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan >> otom?es, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los ind?genas y los >> mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que >> parecen trasladados de Franc?a, y la usan para nombrar a una planta >> cuyo nombre cient?fico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece >> a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras >> que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color >> gris?ceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los >> ?rboles. Originaria de Am?rica Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco >> y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita >> asociada a vegetaci?n inundable, matorral xer?filo, pastizal, bosques >> de encino y de pino. " >> >> A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, >> la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en >> visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles >> en las zonas boscosas de la reg?n. >> >> Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para >> estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un >> adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y >> religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelizaci?n, y >> por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "ni?o >> dios". >> >> La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo >> supe en la ciudad de M?xico que se le recomendaba para las >> "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos >> medicinales puedes verlos en esta p?gina: >> http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 >> >> Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy >> peque?a, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se >> adhiere y cuelga de los ?rboles tambi?n es llamado en la regi?n >> Pachtli o Pachtle pero ?ste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los ?rboles >> a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. >> >> Yo creo que es a partir de ?ste conocimiento bot?nico los indios >> usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar >> simb?licamente con el peque?o heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o >> "canicula", ?poca de m?ximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se >> interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar >> simb?licamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada >> de huracanes, por lo que en la religi?n de estos pueblos se celebraba >> respectivamente y en este ?rden primero la fiesta de la veintena de >> Pachtontli (peque?o Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran >> Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llam?das as? entre los puebos de origen de >> los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se >> corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco >> y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de >> Sahag?n En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los >> informantes de Sahag?n, ?ste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas >> se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su >> equivalencia con el calendario cat?lico . >> >> Roberto Romero Guti?rrez. >> >> >> 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : >>> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with insects. 2. >>> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic vines. 3. >>> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick consistency. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 11 22:01:37 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 00:01:37 +0200 Subject: pachtli4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is interesting. As for the plant, there indeed seems to be convincing trans-dialectal evidence. But to my great desappointment, it is not mentioned in Sahagun?s Book XI of the Florentine Codex (probably just Sahagun?s omission). But about the verb pair pachihui/pachoa, as far as I know there are two of them (could some native speaker confirm??), with short vs. long /a/, so at least one of them is not related to the plant (is its /a/ short or long, by the way??) Best Michel Launey > Message du 11/09/14 17:22 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie ? : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] pachtli4 > > Notequixpoyohuan, > It seems to me, following the general attitude of Richard Andrews, that we have a root, pachtli, which is a plant. And three characteristics of that plant, i.e., 1. it hangs, 2. it fills out (it is cushiony) , and 3. it is parasitic (it covers trees), are exploited through derivation to create three fields of meaning. > Some examples: > 1. pachihui, ?for a building to settle or for the branches of a tree to hang down. pachoa, ?to roost, to bend over, etc.? > 2. pachihui, ?to be satisfied (noyollo), pachtic, ?thick consistency?. -pachca, ?consumed food that makes me feel stuffed or satisfied?. pachontic (pachtli, ohmitl, ti, c), ?thick, curly, soft fur?. > 3. pachtic, ?to be covered with something (swarming flies, etc.) > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Thu Sep 11 22:24:03 2014 From: micc2 at cox.net (mario) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:24:03 -0700 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Piyali inmohuantin! PAXTLE....PAZTLE----- Is used for Mexican manger scenes. It is also used for wooden masks as hair. It grows crazy here in my trees in Chula Vista Ca..... I remember seeing giant trees in the sierra between Hidalgo and Veracruz hung with long streamers of this plant. BTW I also have a small clump of the Peruvian version which is a bit thicker and larger than the Mexican species. -- I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz Mario E. Aguilar, PhD 619.948.8861 www.mexicayotl.net www.mexicayotl.org www.mexicayotl.com www.aguila-blanca.com On 9/11/2014 8:24 AM, Clayton, Mary L. wrote: > John, > The plant, commonly known as "Spanish moss" in English, has indeed > been used for stuffing pillows, mattresses, etc. I don't think I've > ever seen it used that way, but I certainly heard that it was when I > was a kid in Florida. We used to play with it a lot. It was reported > to give one red-bugs / chiggers, but that never seemed to bother us. > The "use" I recall best is that the year I was in the second grade, > our next-door neighbors raised rabbits, and my brother and I helped > the neighbor kids collect great quantities of it to line the rabbit > hutches to protect their feet from the wire. > If you're not familiar with it, just google its botanical name or > "Spanish moss" and you'll see lots of pictures. It is long and > stringy, but quite soft, and when bunched up it makes good padding. > > Mary > > Quoting John Sullivan : > >> Mi estimado Roberto, >> ?sta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustar?a saber si se >> emplea, aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ?se emplea de alguna >> manera como relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? >> Un abrazo, >> John >> >> On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: >> >>> Hola John >>> >>> Yo s?lo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan >>> otom?es, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los ind?genas y los >>> mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que >>> parecen trasladados de Franc?a, y la usan para nombrar a una planta >>> cuyo nombre cient?fico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece >>> a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras >>> que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color >>> gris?ceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los >>> ?rboles. Originaria de Am?rica Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco >>> y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita >>> asociada a vegetaci?n inundable, matorral xer?filo, pastizal, bosques >>> de encino y de pino. " >>> >>> A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, >>> la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en >>> visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles >>> en las zonas boscosas de la reg?n. >>> >>> Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para >>> estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un >>> adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y >>> religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelizaci?n, y >>> por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "ni?o >>> dios". >>> >>> La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo >>> supe en la ciudad de M?xico que se le recomendaba para las >>> "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos >>> medicinales puedes verlos en esta p?gina: >>> http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 >>> >>> >>> Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy >>> peque?a, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se >>> adhiere y cuelga de los ?rboles tambi?n es llamado en la regi?n >>> Pachtli o Pachtle pero ?ste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los ?rboles >>> a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. >>> >>> Yo creo que es a partir de ?ste conocimiento bot?nico los indios >>> usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar >>> simb?licamente con el peque?o heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o >>> "canicula", ?poca de m?ximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se >>> interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar >>> simb?licamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada >>> de huracanes, por lo que en la religi?n de estos pueblos se celebraba >>> respectivamente y en este ?rden primero la fiesta de la veintena de >>> Pachtontli (peque?o Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran >>> Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llam?das as? entre los puebos de origen de >>> los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se >>> corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco >>> y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de >>> Sahag?n En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los >>> informantes de Sahag?n, ?ste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas >>> se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su >>> equivalencia con el calendario cat?lico . >>> >>> Roberto Romero Guti?rrez. >>> >>> >>> 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : >>>> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with >>>> insects. 2. >>>> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic >>>> vines. 3. >>>> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick >>>> consistency. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From magnuspharao at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 14:58:38 2014 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (Magnus Pharao Hansen) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 09:58:38 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 349, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Regarding Pachtli I dont think pachoa and pachihui etc. are derived from pachtli, but rather the other way round. Pachoa and pachihui both has the basic meaning of superposing something on something else. And deriving a noun from that would fit both with moss which is superposed on rocks and trees and the other meanings of the word. Furthermore I believe that pachoa and pachihui belong to a group of verbs that describe movement and which originally were formed through a movement/locational prefix and a verb stem chihui/chihua or tsihui/tsihua. "pa" is then one of the old movement/location prefixes that appears in verbs such as patzoa, pachihui, panoa, pachoa, -pan, ikpak, and maybe patzka. I give a fuller account of my reasoning on my blog here: http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.mx/2014/09/nahuatloligosynthesis-and-etymology-of.html best wishes, Magnus -- Magnus Pharao Hansen PhD. candidate Department of Anthropology Brown University 128 Hope St. Providence, RI 02906 *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu * US: 001 401 651 8413 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Sep 13 15:31:37 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 17:31:37 +0200 Subject: po In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Estimado Roberto y todos, Hace tiempo solicit? comentarios sobre -poh, y incluiste en tu respuesta el ejemplo del uso de -po en composici?n con sustantivos, con el sentido de ?lleno de?(ese sustantivo)", hinchado de?. (ese sustantivo)", etc., y creo que muchos ejemplos eran con -potic. ?Ese -po tiene la o larga? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Wed Sep 17 17:06:57 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:06:57 -0500 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: <54122103.9050005@cox.net> Message-ID: Tocnihuan?: In relation to pachtli, I want to mention two things: 1. An intesting derivation: pachtli --? pachtontli (thanks Roberto!) --? pachtontic --? cuapachtontic --? pach?n in mexican Spanish (having tangled hair). The same derivation, but in Nahuat: pachti --? (...) --? pachontic --? cuapachontic --? pach?n. 2. The use of pachtli for dressing: ? 19. yn chichimeca tlamintinemia ?tle incal ?tle intlal ?tle yntlaqueyan manqui tilmatli ?an ehuatlaquemitl ?an pachtli yn quimoquentiaya. Auh inpilhuan ?an chitaco huacalco yn huapahuaya From: Walter Lehmann (1974). Die Geschichte der K?nigreche von Colhuacan und Mexico (Historia de los reinos de Colhuacan y Mexico; tambi?n: C?dice Chimalpopoca). Berlin: Verlag W. Kohlhammer. My translation:As for the chichimecas, they use to live hunting; they had no house, no clothing; nothing like tissue, it was only leather, pachtli with which they covered themselves. Regarding their children, it was inside of chitallis, of huacallis where they were raised. Just a contribution for a better understanding on the word/plant PACHTLI. Tomas Amaya > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:24:03 -0700 > From: micc2 at cox.net > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pachtli2 > > Piyali inmohuantin! > > PAXTLE....PAZTLE----- Is used for Mexican manger scenes. It is also > used for wooden masks as hair. > > It grows crazy here in my trees in Chula Vista Ca..... I remember seeing > giant trees in the sierra between Hidalgo and Veracruz hung with long > streamers of this plant. BTW I also have a small clump of the Peruvian > version which is a bit thicker and larger than the Mexican species. > > -- > I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: > > "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz > > > Mario E. Aguilar, PhD > > 619.948.8861 > > www.mexicayotl.net > www.mexicayotl.org > www.mexicayotl.com > www.aguila-blanca.com > > On 9/11/2014 8:24 AM, Clayton, Mary L. wrote: > > John, > > The plant, commonly known as "Spanish moss" in English, has indeed > > been used for stuffing pillows, mattresses, etc. I don't think I've > > ever seen it used that way, but I certainly heard that it was when I > > was a kid in Florida. We used to play with it a lot. It was reported > > to give one red-bugs / chiggers, but that never seemed to bother us. > > The "use" I recall best is that the year I was in the second grade, > > our next-door neighbors raised rabbits, and my brother and I helped > > the neighbor kids collect great quantities of it to line the rabbit > > hutches to protect their feet from the wire. > > If you're not familiar with it, just google its botanical name or > > "Spanish moss" and you'll see lots of pictures. It is long and > > stringy, but quite soft, and when bunched up it makes good padding. > > > > Mary > > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > > > >> Mi estimado Roberto, > >> ?sta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustar?a saber si se > >> emplea, aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ?se emplea de alguna > >> manera como relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? > >> Un abrazo, > >> John > >> > >> On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: > >> > >>> Hola John > >>> > >>> Yo s?lo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan > >>> otom?es, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los ind?genas y los > >>> mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que > >>> parecen trasladados de Franc?a, y la usan para nombrar a una planta > >>> cuyo nombre cient?fico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece > >>> a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras > >>> que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color > >>> gris?ceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los > >>> ?rboles. Originaria de Am?rica Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco > >>> y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita > >>> asociada a vegetaci?n inundable, matorral xer?filo, pastizal, bosques > >>> de encino y de pino. " > >>> > >>> A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, > >>> la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en > >>> visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles > >>> en las zonas boscosas de la reg?n. > >>> > >>> Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para > >>> estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un > >>> adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y > >>> religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelizaci?n, y > >>> por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "ni?o > >>> dios". > >>> > >>> La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo > >>> supe en la ciudad de M?xico que se le recomendaba para las > >>> "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos > >>> medicinales puedes verlos en esta p?gina: > >>> http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 > >>> > >>> > >>> Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy > >>> peque?a, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se > >>> adhiere y cuelga de los ?rboles tambi?n es llamado en la regi?n > >>> Pachtli o Pachtle pero ?ste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los ?rboles > >>> a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. > >>> > >>> Yo creo que es a partir de ?ste conocimiento bot?nico los indios > >>> usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar > >>> simb?licamente con el peque?o heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o > >>> "canicula", ?poca de m?ximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se > >>> interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar > >>> simb?licamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada > >>> de huracanes, por lo que en la religi?n de estos pueblos se celebraba > >>> respectivamente y en este ?rden primero la fiesta de la veintena de > >>> Pachtontli (peque?o Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran > >>> Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llam?das as? entre los puebos de origen de > >>> los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se > >>> corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco > >>> y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de > >>> Sahag?n En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los > >>> informantes de Sahag?n, ?ste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas > >>> se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su > >>> equivalencia con el calendario cat?lico . > >>> > >>> Roberto Romero Guti?rrez. > >>> > >>> > >>> 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : > >>>> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with > >>>> insects. 2. > >>>> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic > >>>> vines. 3. > >>>> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick > >>>> consistency. > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Nahuatl mailing list > >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >>>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Wed Sep 17 20:28:02 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:28:02 +0200 Subject: pachtli2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the Huasteca, the word is cua:pachontic. For a long time I couldn?t figure out what the -on- was. Then I got the idea that it is from ?ohmitl?, ?pelt?, although I can?t explain the absence of the h. Now Tom?s, you give another form, ?pachtontic", and since the more common form for ?pelt" is ?tohmitl?, I feel a little less bad about that h. Tlazcamati, John On Sep 17, 2014, at 7:06 PM, Tomas Amaya wrote: > > > > Tocnihuan?: > In relation to pachtli, I want to mention two things: > 1. An intesting derivation: pachtli --? pachtontli (thanks Roberto!) --? pachtontic --? cuapachtontic --? pach?n in mexican Spanish (having tangled hair). The same derivation, but in Nahuat: pachti --? (...) > > --? pachontic --? cuapachontic --? pach?n. > > 2. The use of pachtli for dressing: > ? 19. yn chichimeca tlamintinemia ?tle incal ?tle intlal ?tle yntlaqueyan manqui tilmatli > ?an ehuatlaquemitl > ?an pachtli yn quimoquentiaya. > Auh inpilhuan ?an chitaco huacalco yn huapahuaya > From: > Walter Lehmann (1974). Die Geschichte der K?nigreche von Colhuacan und Mexico (Historia de los reinos de Colhuacan y Mexico; tambi?n: C?dice Chimalpopoca). Berlin: Verlag W. Kohlhammer. > My translation:As for the chichimecas, they use to live hunting; they had no house, no clothing; nothing like tissue, it was only leather, pachtli with which they covered themselves. Regarding their children, it was inside of chitallis, of huacallis where they were raised. > Just a contribution for a better understanding on the word/plant PACHTLI. > Tomas Amaya > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:24:03 -0700 >> From: micc2 at cox.net >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] pachtli2 >> >> Piyali inmohuantin! >> >> PAXTLE....PAZTLE----- Is used for Mexican manger scenes. It is also >> used for wooden masks as hair. >> >> It grows crazy here in my trees in Chula Vista Ca..... I remember seeing >> giant trees in the sierra between Hidalgo and Veracruz hung with long >> streamers of this plant. BTW I also have a small clump of the Peruvian >> version which is a bit thicker and larger than the Mexican species. >> >> -- >> I live for reasoned, enlightened spirituality: >> >> "Tlacecelilli", tranquilidad, paz >> >> >> Mario E. Aguilar, PhD >> >> 619.948.8861 >> >> www.mexicayotl.net >> www.mexicayotl.org >> www.mexicayotl.com >> www.aguila-blanca.com >> >> On 9/11/2014 8:24 AM, Clayton, Mary L. wrote: >>> John, >>> The plant, commonly known as "Spanish moss" in English, has indeed >>> been used for stuffing pillows, mattresses, etc. I don't think I've >>> ever seen it used that way, but I certainly heard that it was when I >>> was a kid in Florida. We used to play with it a lot. It was reported >>> to give one red-bugs / chiggers, but that never seemed to bother us. >>> The "use" I recall best is that the year I was in the second grade, >>> our next-door neighbors raised rabbits, and my brother and I helped >>> the neighbor kids collect great quantities of it to line the rabbit >>> hutches to protect their feet from the wire. >>> If you're not familiar with it, just google its botanical name or >>> "Spanish moss" and you'll see lots of pictures. It is long and >>> stringy, but quite soft, and when bunched up it makes good padding. >>> >>> Mary >>> >>> Quoting John Sullivan : >>> >>>> Mi estimado Roberto, >>>> ?sta es la planta que yo buscaba. Ahora me gustar?a saber si se >>>> emplea, aparte de lo medicinal. Que tu sepas, ?se emplea de alguna >>>> manera como relleno, o relleno de algo para acolchonar? >>>> Un abrazo, >>>> John >>>> >>>> On Sep 11, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Roberto Romero wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hola John >>>>> >>>>> Yo s?lo puedo decirte que aunque vivo en una zona donde habitan >>>>> otom?es, la palabra Pachtli o Pachtle la usan los ind?genas y los >>>>> mestizos que comparten su horizonte cultural, algunos tan rubios que >>>>> parecen trasladados de Franc?a, y la usan para nombrar a una planta >>>>> cuyo nombre cient?fico es: Tillandsia usneoides (L.) L que pertenece >>>>> a las Bromeliaceae. "Planta con tallos colgantes en forma de hebras >>>>> que se ramifican y miden varios metros de largo; tiene un color >>>>> gris?ceo y generalmente se encuentra colgando de las ramas de los >>>>> ?rboles. Originaria de Am?rica Tropical. Presente en climas semi-seco >>>>> y templado desde el nivel del mar hasta los 2820m. Planta epifita >>>>> asociada a vegetaci?n inundable, matorral xer?filo, pastizal, bosques >>>>> de encino y de pino. " >>>>> >>>>> A partir de estas fechas en que ya ha pasado la temporada de lluvias, >>>>> la "canicula" , se esta en el cierre de la temporada de lluvias y en >>>>> visperas de las heladas, el Pachtli ya crece colgando de los arboles >>>>> en las zonas boscosas de la reg?n. >>>>> >>>>> Tu podras ver y comprar esta planta en los tianguis que surgen para >>>>> estas fiestas "posadas "y navidad y se usa por costumbre como un >>>>> adorno, ami me parece que es un adorno cuyas raices rituales y >>>>> religiosos fueron ya olvidados y enterrados por la evangelizaci?n, y >>>>> por costumbre se usa para adornar los "nacimientos" del "ni?o >>>>> dios". >>>>> >>>>> La planta del Pachtli o Heno tiene usos medicinales. Entre otros yo >>>>> supe en la ciudad de M?xico que se le recomendaba para las >>>>> "almorranas" (hemorroides) y para control de la caspa. Otros usos >>>>> medicinales puedes verlos en esta p?gina: >>>>> http://www.medicinatradicionalmexicana.unam.mx/monografia.php?l=3&t=&id=7669 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Otra planta parasita que es de la misma familia pero que es muy >>>>> peque?a, parecida en color pero de distinta forma pero que se >>>>> adhiere y cuelga de los ?rboles tambi?n es llamado en la regi?n >>>>> Pachtli o Pachtle pero ?ste distinto tipo de Paxtli seca los ?rboles >>>>> a los que parasita lo que no sucede con la primera. >>>>> >>>>> Yo creo que es a partir de ?ste conocimiento bot?nico los indios >>>>> usaron los dos distintos tipos de Pachtli para a representar >>>>> simb?licamente con el peque?o heno a la sequedad del "veranillo" o >>>>> "canicula", ?poca de m?ximo calor y cuando dentro del verano se >>>>> interrumpen las lluvias, y con el gran Pachtli representar >>>>> simb?licamente las grandes lluvias que trae el cenit de la temporada >>>>> de huracanes, por lo que en la religi?n de estos pueblos se celebraba >>>>> respectivamente y en este ?rden primero la fiesta de la veintena de >>>>> Pachtontli (peque?o Pachtli o heno) y del Huey Pachtli, el Gran >>>>> Pachtli (Heno) , veintenas llam?das as? entre los puebos de origen de >>>>> los informantes de Fray Diego Duran, par de fiestas que se >>>>> corresponden con las fiestas llamadas de las veintenas de Teutleco >>>>> y de Tepeilhuitl entre los pueblos de origen de los informantes de >>>>> Sahag?n En el calendario en uso por los pueblos de origen de los >>>>> informantes de Sahag?n, ?ste par de veintenas y de fiestas religiosas >>>>> se celebraban en este mes de septiembre y durante octubre en su >>>>> equivalencia con el calendario cat?lico . >>>>> >>>>> Roberto Romero Guti?rrez. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2014-09-11 2:01 GMT+08:00, John Sullivan : >>>>>> And I forgot to add pachtic. 1. person or thing covered with >>>>>> insects. 2. >>>>>> tree or plant covered with leaves, flowers, fruit or parasitic >>>>>> vines. 3. >>>>>> place covered with insects. 4. food boiled down to a thick >>>>>> consistency. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nahuatl mailing list >>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nahuatl mailing list >>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 12:06:30 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:06:30 -0400 Subject: Codex Chimalpahin Message-ID: The Mexican government has purchased the Codex Chimalpahin: http://www.inah.gob.mx/boletin/2-actividades-academicas/7338-el-gobierno-de-mexico-recupera-el-codice-chimalpahin -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 315-212-0064 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 18 13:00:34 2014 From: budelberger.richard at wanadoo.fr (Richard BUDELBERGER) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:00:34 +0200 Subject: Codex Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Message du 18/09/14 14:07 > De : John Schwaller > A : nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Objet : [Nahuat-l] Codex Chimalpahin > > The Mexican government has purchased the Codex Chimalpahin: > > http://www.inah.gob.mx/boletin/2-actividades-academicas/7338-el-gobierno-de-mexico-recupera-el-codice-chimalpahin Bonne nouvelle, tr?s bonne nouvelle?: ??You know what?? I?m happy.???(?)? 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSWf_yIV-d4 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 18 21:32:26 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 23:32:26 +0200 Subject: hu/n>c Message-ID: Mis estimados listeros, A problem we have all had is accepting the fact that, for example coyo:ni goes to coyoctli, then coyoctic; and chicahui/chicahua goes to chicactic. In other words, why does hu or n sometimes change to c? I have seen some explanations that point to historical phonological processes, but I think there may be a simpler explanation. We know that Nahuatl, as an agglutinating language has a smaller amount of word roots than other languages, and it uses derivational affixes to multiply versions of those word roots that can carry meaning. Probably the most basic and important derivational process in Nahuatl is verbing. A Nahuatl verbing suffix creates intransitive verbs only. Some look like they create transitive verbs, but it?s just because we are skipping over a step. Anyway, I think there is a verbing suffix that is not talked much about. It is -ca. This is the same -ca that has, for many centuries been supposedly immune to reduction, for example in cho:ca, even though we see now cho:cqui in Modern variants. This is also the same -ca that we see in all of those beautiful reduplications that go like this: coyo:ni, cocoyoca, coyo:nia:, cocoyotza. I think this verber, for some reason (maybe somebody can help with this), had two forms, -qui and -ca (this is where we get hua:qui and hua:tza, although I still don?t understand that process well), the same way that we have a -hui/-hua verber. Anyway, getting back to the argument, I have seen many examples now of derivations that don't seem to make much sense. For example, how come the applicative of cocoyotza is cocoyotzhuilia, when we know that the -hu probably came from an o. The answer is that this applicative is built on an unattested parallel version of cocoyotza, cocoyotzoa (It is unattested for this verb, but in many other forms, the two versions coexist). I went off on a tangent again. So what I think is that when coyo:ni is transformed into a patientive noun, what is actually happening is that an alternative, unattested version of coyo:ni, coyoca is used as the base for that transformation. The same goes for chica:hui/chica:hua, etc. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 12:23:19 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 08:23:19 -0400 Subject: Codex Chimalpahin Message-ID: Art Daily has a longer article about the return of the Codex Chimalpahin to Mexico: http://tinyurl.com/k4s8ohl -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 315-212-0064 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sat Sep 20 09:15:24 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 11:15:24 +0200 Subject: chencre Message-ID: Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which means ?a person who walks with a limp.? Does anyone know where this word comes from? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Sep 20 13:30:22 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:30:22 -0400 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A bit confused, John. Is this "chencre" or "chunkier"? tlaxtlahui, Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, > There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which > means ?a person who walks with a limp.? Does anyone know where this > word comes from? > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Sep 20 13:34:18 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:34:18 -0400 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting John Sullivan : > Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, > There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which > means ?a person who walks with a limp.? Does anyone know where this > word comes from? > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > The reason I'm asking, John, is that, barring the initial syllable, the term sounds a lot like Spanish "renquear". Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 13:48:51 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:48:51 -0400 Subject: From Gordon Whittaker Message-ID: From: Gordon Whittaker Date: Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 12:43 AM Subject: Codex Chimalpahin To: "aztlan at lists.famsi.org" Cc: John Schwaller Dear list members, Please note that what has been sold to the Mexican government is NOT just the Codex Chimalpahin but also, among other things, the equally valuable earliest known versions of the historical works of Ixtlilxochitl, some of which are in his own hand. These primary sources are part of what was until now collectively known as Bible Society MS 374. I am in the process of preparing a new edition of the works of Ixtlilxochitl as recorded in BSMS 374, while Amber Brian and her colleagues are preparing a translation of the "Historia de la naci?n chichimeca". I hope this email makes it through to Aztlan -- for some time now all my emails sent to the list directly have failed to get through. Perhaps I'll be lucky this time! Best wishes, Gordon Whittaker _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Sep 20 20:47:34 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:47:34 -0400 Subject: chencre Message-ID: John: Looking at Northern Iroquoian languages and Algonquian languages, the former geographically wedged up between the latter, we can see how these two language families have influenced each other lexically--not at all. In other words, in the case of Iroquoian and Algonquian, there has been zero lexical borrowing across the language families even though their cheek-to-jowl living situation has been going on for over a thousand years. Siouan languages and Algonquian languages have also interfaced over the last 1000 years or so in the Midwest, but again there hasn't been much borrowing back and forth. Curiously, though, the Miami-Illinois term for the number "eight," /palaani/, is from a Siouan language. Go figure. Of course, Iroquoian, Algonquian and Siouan have borrowed from the colonizing language, English. If this is any indication of what has happened in Mexico, my hunch is that the majority of the foreign terms in HN will continue to prove to be Spanish in origin. Just a thought, Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, > There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which > means ?a person who walks with a limp.? Does anyone know where this > word comes from? > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Sep 21 07:07:54 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 09:07:54 +0200 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: <20140920093418.uxc92b5ew0ooksww@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Michael drogi and listeros, This is great, it must be the root, although I can?t find the shorter version, ?renque?. I found a tweet from a Dominican woman in the US that used the expression ?bajar a renque?, and I asked her what it means. I hope she answers. Has anyone seen or heard ?renque? in Spanish? John > On Sep 20, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Sep 21 09:22:09 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:22:09 +0200 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: <555887057.2873.1411289915159.JavaMail.www@wwinf1g28> Message-ID: Michel, After seeing so many strange evolutions of loanwords in Nahuatl, the only time I laugh is from the pleasure of finally having solved the problem and understood the process. John > On Sep 21, 2014, at 10:58 AM, M Launey wrote: > > Ahem? I?m wary about the following suggestion, but I?ve known or heard about several cases of descendants of French soldiers from the Maximiliano expedition, with some lexical borrowings as a consequence, and chencre looks so much like French chancre (although chunkier is admittedly still less convincing). A chancre on a leg can affect someone?s ability to walk, so suppose one asks some limping French speaker ? Hey, what?s the matter with you ? ? J'ai un chancre ?, and then the word is borrowed by synecdoche. > > But OK, don?t laugh at me too nastily, I won?t put my life at stake for that. > > Best > > M.L. > > > > > > > > > > Message du 20/09/14 11:16 > > De : "John Sullivan" > > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > > Copie ? : > > Objet : [Nahuat-l] chencre > > > > Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which means ?a person who walks with a limp.? Does anyone know where this word comes from? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 21 08:58:35 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:58:35 +0200 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ahem? I?m wary about the following suggestion, but I?ve known or heard about several cases of descendants of French soldiers from the Maximiliano expedition, with some lexical borrowings as a consequence, and chencre looks so much like French chancre (although chunkier is admittedly still less convincing). A chancre on a leg can affect someone?s ability to walk, so suppose one asks some limping French speaker ??Hey, what?s the matter with you?? ? J'ai un chancre??, and then the word is borrowed by synecdoche. But OK, don?t laugh at me too nastily, I won?t put my life at stake for that. Best M.L. ? > Message du 20/09/14 11:16 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie ? : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] chencre > > Notlazohtequixpoyohuan, There is a loanword in Modern Huastecan Nahuatl, chunkier, which means ?a person who walks with a limp.? Does anyone know where this word comes from? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From rgyalrongskad at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 09:32:22 2014 From: rgyalrongskad at gmail.com (Guillaume Jacques) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:32:22 +0200 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: <20140920164734.8bp2ypy4g0skwgcg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Michael, > Siouan languages and Algonquian languages have also interfaced over the > last 1000 years or so in the Midwest, but again there hasn't been much > borrowing back and forth. Curiously, though, the Miami-Illinois term for > the number "eight," /palaani/, is from a Siouan language. Go figure. > I think that it is incorrect to say that there has not been much borrowing between Algonquian and Siouan languages. In general (apart from the borrowing of the numeral "eight" from Tutelo to Miami-Illinois you mention), the direction of borrowing is from Algonquian to Siouan. Borrowings are not always easily recognizable due to a series of sound changes in Siouan (they include words such as "bow", "squash", "bear" etc). On this topic, see: Koontz, John E. 1986. Old loanwords in Mississippi Valley Siouan: archaeological implications. Paper presented at the 44th Annual PlainsConference, Denver, Colorado. Michaud, Alexis, Jacques, Guillaume & Rankin, Robert. 2012. Historical transfer of nasality between consonantal onset and vowel: from C to V or from V to C? *Diachronica* 29.2: 201?230. Guillaume -- Guillaume Jacques CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Sun Sep 21 14:23:57 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 16:23:57 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh Message-ID: Notequixpoyohuan, Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? YAUH Present niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih Optative ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian HUALLAUH Present nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih Optative ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 21 14:23:14 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:23:14 -0400 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bonjour, Jacques, I know John's ideas on borrowings but was unaware of your Michaud's and Bob's piece. Thank you. I will read it. When I said "not much" borrowing between Siouan and Algonquian, I didn't mean "none". Best, Michael Quoting Guillaume Jacques : > Dear Michael, > > >> Siouan languages and Algonquian languages have also interfaced over the >> last 1000 years or so in the Midwest, but again there hasn't been much >> borrowing back and forth. Curiously, though, the Miami-Illinois term for >> the number "eight," /palaani/, is from a Siouan language. Go figure. >> > > I think that it is incorrect to say that there has not been much borrowing > between Algonquian and Siouan languages. In general (apart from the > borrowing of the numeral "eight" from Tutelo to Miami-Illinois you > mention), the direction of borrowing is from Algonquian to Siouan. > Borrowings are not always easily recognizable due to a series of sound > changes in Siouan (they include words such as "bow", "squash", "bear" etc). > On this topic, see: > > Koontz, John E. 1986. Old loanwords in Mississippi Valley Siouan: > archaeological implications. Paper presented at the 44th Annual > PlainsConference, Denver, Colorado. > Michaud, Alexis, Jacques, Guillaume & Rankin, Robert. 2012. Historical > transfer of nasality between consonantal onset and vowel: from C to V or > from V to C? *Diachronica* 29.2: 201?230. > > Guillaume > > -- > Guillaume Jacques > CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO > http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques > http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ > http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 21 15:00:16 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 17:00:16 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh Message-ID: Yes, this is correct, except that should be parsed /wi-ya:n/. This is the reason why, while using most of the time Carochi's script, I restore the /y/ (i.e. , while Carochi writes ). For the same reason, I write "receive" but "keep" , because of the different preterit morphology (Carochi writes ); and again, I write "hurt" but "there are deaths" (Carochi: , though he usually writes the /w/ in transitive verbs like , ). Much to my shame, I long believed that in yauh the /a/ was long (and it is written long in my grammar in French 1979), but it is definitely short. This big mistake was corrected in the English version. Best Michel Launey > Message du 21/09/14 16:24 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie ? : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > Notequixpoyohuan, > Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? > YAUH > Present > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih > Optative > ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian > HUALLAUH > Present > nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih > Optative > ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 21 15:19:32 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:19:32 -0400 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <46CE5536-BE8E-4F46-BF2E-D4904F2D4153@me.com> Message-ID: This is a trick question, right, John? :) Looks good to me. Michael Quoting John Sullivan : > Notequixpoyohuan, > Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong > with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? > YAUH > Present > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih > Optative > ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian > HUALLAUH > Present > nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih > Optative > ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, > xihualhuian, ma hualhuian > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 21 16:18:10 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 12:18:10 -0400 Subject: chencre In-Reply-To: <20140921102314.ah17wu57kk8wg4ws@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: In fact, there are actually a few loan words in Algonquian from Iroquoian, such as Munsee /k?anoos/ 'kerosene' < Seneca /tka:no's/ 'oil on water'. Unami has /ya:kw?ho/ (or -ha) 'mammoth?' < Seneca 'Great Bear, Naked Bear' (supposedly it means 'it's body is high'). There seems to be a Mohawk loan in Cuoq's Algonquin: 'bean'). The point was to suggest to John Sullivan that it be a better use of one's time to look for Spanish borrowings into Huastecan Nahuatl than to look for Native borrowings. Michael Quoting Michael McCafferty : > > Bonjour, Jacques, > > I know John's ideas on borrowings but was unaware of your Michaud's > and Bob's piece. Thank you. I will read it. When I said "not much" > borrowing between Siouan and Algonquian, I didn't mean "none". > > Best, > > Michael > > > Quoting Guillaume Jacques : > >> Dear Michael, >> >> >>> Siouan languages and Algonquian languages have also interfaced over the >>> last 1000 years or so in the Midwest, but again there hasn't been much >>> borrowing back and forth. Curiously, though, the Miami-Illinois term for >>> the number "eight," /palaani/, is from a Siouan language. Go figure. >>> >> >> I think that it is incorrect to say that there has not been much borrowing >> between Algonquian and Siouan languages. In general (apart from the >> borrowing of the numeral "eight" from Tutelo to Miami-Illinois you >> mention), the direction of borrowing is from Algonquian to Siouan. >> Borrowings are not always easily recognizable due to a series of sound >> changes in Siouan (they include words such as "bow", "squash", "bear" etc). >> On this topic, see: >> >> Koontz, John E. 1986. Old loanwords in Mississippi Valley Siouan: >> archaeological implications. Paper presented at the 44th Annual >> PlainsConference, Denver, Colorado. >> Michaud, Alexis, Jacques, Guillaume & Rankin, Robert. 2012. Historical >> transfer of nasality between consonantal onset and vowel: from C to V or >> from V to C? *Diachronica* 29.2: 201?230. >> >> Guillaume >> >> -- >> Guillaume Jacques >> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO >> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques >> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/ >> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/ >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 21 16:28:17 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:28:17 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <46CE5536-BE8E-4F46-BF2E-D4904F2D4153@me.com> Message-ID: ? Dear listeros There happened strange deletions in my latest message. I hope this one will be understandable. M.L. ? (My full message) ? Yes, this is correct, except that huian should be parsed /wi-ya:n/. This is the reason why, while using most of the time Carochi's script, I write the y (i.e. huiy?n, while Carochi writes hui?n). For the same reason, I write celia but piya, because of the different preterit morphology (Carochi writes pia); and again, I write cocoa "hurt" but mic?hua "there are deaths" (Carochi: mic?a, though he usually writes the /w/ in transitive verbs like p?hua, c?hua). Much to my shame, I long believed that in yauh the /a/ was long (and it is written long in my grammar in French 1979), but it is definitely short. This big mistake was corrected in the English version Best Michel Launey ? > Message du 21/09/14 16:24 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie ? : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > Notequixpoyohuan, > Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? > YAUH > Present > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih > Optative > ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian > HUALLAUH > Present > nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih > Optative > ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Sep 21 16:51:09 2014 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:51:09 -0500 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <46CE5536-BE8E-4F46-BF2E-D4904F2D4153@me.com> Message-ID: Dear John: They look pretty good to me. The only changes I would make ?following Andrews (2003: 90-99), Campbell & Karttunen (1989), Carochi (2001: 150-166), and Lockhart (2001: 64, 65)? would be to mark the long vowels (a:), add the particle ma: to the second person forms, and include the regional variants tiyahui, anyahui, and yahui, mentioned by Lockhart in a footnote to Carochi (2001: 159, n. 6) and discussed by Canger (2011: 248), who explains that tihuih, anhuih, and huih are reduced forms used by the inhabitants of Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco. The paradigms thus modified would look like this: YAUH Present niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih (tiyahui), anhuih (anyahuih), huih (yahui) Optative ma: niyauh, ma: xiyauh, ma: yauh, ma: tihuia:n, ma: xihuia:n, ma: huia:n HUALLAUH Present nihua:llauh, tihua:llauh, hua:llauh, tihua:lhuih, anhua:lhuih, hua:lhuih Optative ma: nihua:llauh, ma: xihua:llauh, ma: hua:llauh, ma: tihua:lhuia:n, ma: xihua:lhuia:n, ma: hua:lhuia:n References: ANDREWS, J. Richard (2003). Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, revised edition, Norman, University of Oklahoma Press. CAMPBELL, R. Joe; KARTTUNEN, Frances (1989). Foundation course in Nahuatl grammar, volume 1: Text and exercises, Missoula, The University of Montana. CANGER, Una (2011). ?El nauatl urbano de Tlatelolco/Tenochtitlan, resultado de convergencia entre dialectos, con un esbozo brev?simo de la historia de los dialectos,? in Estudios de Cultura N?huatl (Instituto de Investigaciones Hist?ricas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico), no. 42, pp. 243-258. CAROCHI, Horacio (2001). Grammar of the Mexican language with an explanation of its adverbs (1645), James Lockhart, translator and editor, Stanford/Los Angeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. LOCKHART, James (2001). Nahuatl as written, lessons in older written Nahuatl, with copious examples and texts, Stanford/Los Angeles, Stanford University Press/UCLA Latin American Center Publications. Best regards, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de John Sullivan Enviado el: domingo, 21 de septiembre de 2014 09:24 a. m. Para: list nahuatl discussion Asunto: [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh Notequixpoyohuan, Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? YAUH Present niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih Optative ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian HUALLAUH Present nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih Optative ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Sep 21 18:15:04 2014 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 13:15:04 -0500 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <001501cfd5bc$3e8a6960$bb9f3c20$@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: Sorry, in my haste I omitted some saltillos (on tiyahuih, anyahuih, and yahuih). Here it goes again: YAUH Present niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih (tiyahuih), anhuih (anyahuih), huih (yahuih) Optative ma: niyauh, ma: xiyauh, ma: yauh, ma: tihuia:n, ma: xihuia:n, ma: huia:n HUALLAUH Present nihua:llauh, tihua:llauh, hua:llauh, tihua:lhuih, anhua:lhuih, hua:lhuih Optative ma: nihua:llauh, ma: xihua:llauh, ma: hua:llauh, ma: tihua:lhuia:n, ma: xihua:lhuia:n, ma: hua:lhuia:n _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Sep 21 22:49:30 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:49:30 -0400 Subject: hu/n>c Message-ID: Hey John and listeros, When I read that Nahuatl verbing suffixes create only intransitive verbs, I noticed that my mouth opened and I think my heart-rate increased. So I went through some word lists and came up with some examples of one type of verbing: acalli nin[o]acalhuia I ride in a boat for pleasure ahhuatl nechahhuahuia he scratches me with a thorn ahmolli nin[o]ahmolhuia I soap myself amatl nicamahuia I wrap it with paper amochitl nicamochihuia I cover it with tin camanalli nitecacamanalhuia I tell jests to someone ciyacatl nitlaciyacahuia I hold something under my arm eztli nin[o]ezhuia I bleed huictli nitlahuichuia I hoe ixtli nitlaixhuia I level something nenepilli nitlaixnenepilhuia I lick the surface of something izhuatl nitlaizhuahuia I rub something with leaves iztatl nitlaiztahuia I salt something mahpilli nitemahpilhuia I point at someone matlatl nicmatlahuia I catch it with a net metztli mometzhuia she has her monthly period molicpitl temolicpihuia he elbows someone nexayotl quinexayohuia he treats it with ashes and water octli mochuia he gets drunk Is there a better way to look at words like these? Joe Quoting John Sullivan : > Mis estimados listeros, > A problem we have all had is accepting the fact that, for example > coyo:ni goes to coyoctli, then coyoctic; and chicahui/chicahua goes > to chicactic. In other words, why does hu or n sometimes change to c? > I have seen some explanations that point to historical phonological > processes, but I think there may be a simpler explanation. We know > that Nahuatl, as an agglutinating language has a smaller amount of > word roots than other languages, and it uses derivational affixes to > multiply versions of those word roots that can carry meaning. > Probably the most basic and important derivational process in Nahuatl > is verbing. A Nahuatl verbing suffix creates intransitive verbs only. > Some look like they create transitive verbs, but it's just because we > are skipping over a step. Anyway, I think there is a verbing suffix > that is not talked much about. It is -ca. This is the same -ca that > has, for many centuries been supposedly immune to reduction, for > example in cho:ca, even though we see now cho:cqui in Modern > variants. This is also the same -ca that we see in all of those > beautiful reduplications that go like this: coyo:ni, cocoyoca, > coyo:nia:, cocoyotza. I think this verber, for some reason (maybe > somebody can help with this), had two forms, -qui and -ca (this is > where we get hua:qui and hua:tza, although I still don't understand > that process well), the same way that we have a -hui/-hua verber. > Anyway, getting back to the argument, I have seen many examples now > of derivations that don't seem to make much sense. For example, how > come the applicative of cocoyotza is cocoyotzhuilia, when we know > that the -hu probably came from an o. The answer is that this > applicative is built on an unattested parallel version of cocoyotza, > cocoyotzoa (It is unattested for this verb, but in many other forms, > the two versions coexist). I went off on a tangent again. So what I > think is that when coyo:ni is transformed into a patientive noun, > what is actually happening is that an alternative, unattested version > of coyo:ni, coyoca is used as the base for that transformation. The > same goes for chica:hui/chica:hua, etc. > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Sep 21 21:28:46 2014 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 16:28:46 -0500 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <375839777.12759.1411316897882.JavaMail.www@wwinf1c10> Message-ID: Michel, what you mention is important, and coincides with what Canger wrote in the article I mentioned earlier today. So it looks like this would be a more precise presentation of these paradigms: ************************************************* YAUH Present niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih (tiyahuih), anhuih (anyahuih), huih (yahuih) Optative ma: niyauh, ma: xiyauh, ma: yauh, ma: tihuiya:n, ma: xihuiya:n, ma: huiya:n HUALLAUH Present nihua:llauh, tihua:llauh, hua:llauh, tihua:lhuih, anhua:lhuih, hua:lhuih Optative ma: nihua:llauh, ma: xihua:llauh, ma: hua:llauh, ma: tihua:lhuiya:n, ma: xihua:lhuiya:n, ma: hua:lhuiya:n ************************************************* Listeros, do we have a consensus on this? Can we speak of an irregular plural optative suffix -y:an, used instead of the plural optative suffix -ca:n, with the irregular verbs ya/yauh/hui and hua:lla:/hua:llauh/hua:lhui? Or is there a better way to describe the suffix -ya:n that appears in these plural optative forms? Like Michael, I'm curious about what John had in mind when he posted the initial question. Best, David -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de M Launey Enviado el: domingo, 21 de septiembre de 2014 11:28 a. m. Para: John Sullivan; list nahuatl discussion Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh Dear listeros There happened strange deletions in my latest message. I hope this one will be understandable. M.L. (My full message) Yes, this is correct, except that huian should be parsed /wi-ya:n/. This is the reason why, while using most of the time Carochi's script, I write the y (i.e. huiy?n, while Carochi writes hui?n). For the same reason, I write celia but piya, because of the different preterit morphology (Carochi writes pia); and again, I write cocoa "hurt" but mic?hua "there are deaths" (Carochi: mic?a, though he usually writes the /w/ in transitive verbs like p?hua, c?hua). Much to my shame, I long believed that in yauh the /a/ was long (and it is written long in my grammar in French 1979), but it is definitely short. This big mistake was corrected in the English version Best Michel Launey > Message du 21/09/14 16:24 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > Copie ? : > Objet : [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > Notequixpoyohuan, > Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? > YAUH > Present > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih > Optative > ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian > HUALLAUH > Present > nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih > Optative > ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian > John > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 21 22:40:28 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 00:40:28 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <001701cfd5e3$06e72da0$14b588e0$@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: Yes, yauh is one of the two irregular verbs in classical Nahuatl (the other is c?, /ka?/, or cah if you like; the other so-called irregular ones like mani, onoc are defective, not irregular). There is no other example of a plural suffix ?y?n. By the way, I object to considering hu?llauh as a verb of its own, and I?m afraid that in so doing, many colonial and modern grammarians are influenced by the fact that in European languages there are two different verbs to translate yauh and hu?llauh. But it is clearly hu?l- + yauh, with the directional prefix hu?l- which marks ?motion toward? (so hu?l-yauh is ?go closer?). Since hu?l- is widely used with all kind of verbs, there is no reason to treat differently yauh vs. hu?l-lauh and, say, ?hua vs. hu?l-?hua, mo-cuepa vs. hu?l-mo-cuepa etc. Moreover, the paradigm has two prefixes, hu?l- (motion toward) and on- (motion away), the latter being of still more frequent use. So there is no reason either to treat hu?l-lauh differently from on-yauh ?go away?. Best Michel Launey > Message du 21/09/14 23:29 > De : "David Wright" > A : "'M Launey'" , "'John Sullivan'" , "'list nahuatl discussion'" > Copie ? : > Objet : RE: [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > Michel, what you mention is important, and coincides with what Canger wrote in the article I mentioned earlier today. So it looks like this would be a more precise presentation of these paradigms: > > ************************************************* > YAUH > > Present > > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih (tiyahuih), anhuih (anyahuih), huih (yahuih) > > Optative > > ma: niyauh, ma: xiyauh, ma: yauh, ma: tihuiya:n, ma: xihuiya:n, ma: huiya:n > > HUALLAUH > > Present > > nihua:llauh, tihua:llauh, hua:llauh, tihua:lhuih, anhua:lhuih, hua:lhuih > > Optative > > ma: nihua:llauh, ma: xihua:llauh, ma: hua:llauh, ma: tihua:lhuiya:n, ma: xihua:lhuiya:n, ma: hua:lhuiya:n > ************************************************* > > Listeros, do we have a consensus on this? > > Can we speak of an irregular plural optative suffix -y:an, used instead of the plural optative suffix -ca:n, with the irregular verbs ya/yauh/hui and hua:lla:/hua:llauh/hua:lhui? Or is there a better way to describe the suffix -ya:n that appears in these plural optative forms? > > Like Michael, I'm curious about what John had in mind when he posted the initial question. > > Best, > > David > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] En nombre de M Launey > Enviado el: domingo, 21 de septiembre de 2014 11:28 a. m. > Para: John Sullivan; list nahuatl discussion > Asunto: Re: [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > > > Dear listeros > > There happened strange deletions in my latest message. I hope this one will be understandable. > M.L. > > > > (My full message) > > > > Yes, this is correct, except that huian should be parsed /wi-ya:n/. This is the reason why, while using most of the time Carochi's script, I write the y (i.e. huiy?n, while Carochi writes hui?n). For the same reason, I write celia but piya, because of the different preterit morphology (Carochi writes pia); and again, I write cocoa "hurt" but mic?hua "there are deaths" (Carochi: mic?a, though he usually writes the /w/ in transitive verbs like p?hua, c?hua). > > Much to my shame, I long believed that in yauh the /a/ was long (and it is written long in my grammar in French 1979), but it is definitely short. This big mistake was corrected in the English version > > Best > > > Michel Launey > > > > > > > > > > > > > Message du 21/09/14 16:24 > > De : "John Sullivan" > > A : "list nahuatl discussion" > > Copie ? : > > Objet : [Nahuat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh > > > > Notequixpoyohuan, > > Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? > > YAUH > > Present > > niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih > > Optative > > ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian > > HUALLAUH > > Present > > nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih > > Optative > > ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, xihualhuian, ma hualhuian > > John > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 00:50:42 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 20:50:42 -0400 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh Message-ID: Quoting M Launey : > By the way, I object to considering hu?llauh as a verb of its own, > and I?m afraid that in so doing, many colonial and modern grammarians > are influenced by the fact that in European languages there are two > different verbs to translate yauh and hu?llauh. But it is clearly > hu?l- + yauh, with the directional prefix hu?l- which marks ?motion > toward? (so hu?l-yauh is ?go closer?). Dear Dr. Launey: This is a very good point, and it is certainly one that students need to hear about. At the same time, I'm not sure what "modern grammarians" you are referring to above. Modern grammarians do in fact address this issue, and quite well. J. Richard Andrews (1975) in _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_, p. 67, says, "This verb consists of the directional prefix hua:l and the verb (ya) ~ (yauh) ~ hui. The directional prefix is fused to the stem. Since /l/ + /y/ > /ll/, the stem (ya) is spelled (la) and the stem (yauh), (lauh)." Sullivan's contemporaneous publication _Compendio de la Gramatica Nahuatl_, which is a lovely book despite its quirks or lacks, states "El verbo huallauh" esta' compuesto del adverbio hual, 'hacia aca'' y yauh, 'ir', y literalmente significa 'ir hacia aca''." (p. 250). Karttunen's and Campbell's "Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar" (vol. 1, p. 47) says, "This verb is composed of the prefix hua:l- 'hither' in this direction' added to the stems of verbs 'to go'. When l is directly followed by y, the y assimilates to the l, resulting in ll rather than ly." Best regards, Michael McCafferty _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Sep 22 10:27:14 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:27:14 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <20140921111932.7tyubcty8go4oo4o@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Ok, I should have explained why I wrote requesting verification of the pardigms. We (Rodrigo and Andrea Mart?nez Baracs and I) are currentlly editing the translation of Jim Lockhart?s Nahuatl as Written for publication early next year in Spanish. And I have come across the following problem. Here is a selection from page 65, at the end of Section B.1. in Chapter 11. The discussion centers on the optative of yauh and huallauh. The first sentence seems to imply that the singular optative forms of yauh are base on hui. This is a mistake that I have corrected in the translation. And there is no need to comment on the spelling of the impersonal forms, since Jim himself does this in a different part of the text. The most interesting thing is in the second section. Here, the implication is that the singular optative forms of huallauh are indeed ma nihualhui, xihualhui and ma hualhui. These are not the forms that I learned: I learned ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh and ma huallauh. Andrews does not give full paradigms, but that suggests that he wants us to fill in the missing forms based the yauh paradigm. The PROBLEM is that Prem?s grammar charts (given to me by Justyna Olko, who studied Classical Nahuatl under him) gives the singular optative of huallauh as ma nihualhui, xihualhui and ma hualhui, and this jives with Jim?s idea in NAW. I would appreciate enlighten(ing/ed) comments about this. Are we dealing with different colonial sources that were written based on different variants of the language? Perhaps, as David did, we need to include all attested variations of these forms in our grammar charts, i.e., yauh, hui, yahui; although as we progress we?re probably going to find that there were as many variations then as now, so, yahue, yohui, youh, etc. John The optative is based on hui; the plural is irregular, without the c of the suffix -can; xihuian, ?go (pl.)!? The impersonal is also from hui, huiloa. The imperfect and impersonal have variants based on ya (yaya, yaloa), but they are not often seen in documents. Huallauh, ?to come,? runs parallel to yauh in everything, since it is merely hual-yauh plus automatic assimilation. Thus the present is nihuallauh, tihualhui, preterit nihualla, imperfect nihualhuia, future nihuallaz, optative ma nihualhui, etc. (NAW, p.65) > On Sep 21, 2014, at 5:19 PM, Michael McCafferty wrote: > > This is a trick question, right, John? :) > > Looks good to me. > > Michael > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > >> Notequixpoyohuan, >> Leaving aside difference in older variants, is there anything wrong >> with the following paradigms in standard Classical Nahuatl? >> YAUH >> Present >> niyauh, tiyauh, yauh, tihuih, anhuih, huih >> Optative >> ma niyauh, xiyauh, ma yauh, ma tihuian, xihuian, ma huian >> HUALLAUH >> Present >> nihuallauh, tihuallauh, huallauh, tihualhuih, anhualhuih, hualhuih >> Optative >> ma nihuallauh, xihuallauh, ma huallauh, ma tihualhuian, >> xihualhuian, ma hualhuian >> John >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Mon Sep 22 10:48:11 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:48:11 +0200 Subject: hu/n>c In-Reply-To: <20140921184930.il00ec8qcc8cwsws@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, 1. I firmly believe (sounds like the beginning of the creed or an act of contrition) that -huia is indeed an applicative suffix, built on an unattested base of the -oa intransitive verber. Y es m?s, I think that when -oa looses the final -a and and goes into its combining form, the -o collapses into the -hu that it probably originated as in the first place, and then all we do is add the normal -ia applicative suffix (Amen). 2. As far as the intransitive -oa goes, I think it also can be broken down, although I haven?t thought it through. The -o or -hu(i) was probably an impersonal verber, and the -a is a valence adder (I think that pretty much all transitive verbs ending in a, including causatives and benefactives, use this -a), which in this case adds a subject. 3. And I think that -ia consists of two morphemes, but that?s another topic. John > On Sep 22, 2014, at 12:49 AM, Campbell, R. Joe wrote: > > > Hey John and listeros, > > When I read that Nahuatl verbing suffixes create only intransitive verbs, > I noticed that my mouth opened and I think my heart-rate increased. So > I went through some word lists and came up with some examples of one type of verbing: > > acalli nin[o]acalhuia I ride in a boat for pleasure > > ahhuatl nechahhuahuia he scratches me with a thorn > > ahmolli nin[o]ahmolhuia I soap myself > > amatl nicamahuia I wrap it with paper > > amochitl nicamochihuia I cover it with tin > > camanalli nitecacamanalhuia I tell jests to someone > > ciyacatl nitlaciyacahuia I hold something under my arm > > eztli nin[o]ezhuia I bleed > > huictli nitlahuichuia I hoe > > ixtli nitlaixhuia I level something > > nenepilli nitlaixnenepilhuia I lick the surface of something > > izhuatl nitlaizhuahuia I rub something with leaves > > iztatl nitlaiztahuia I salt something > > mahpilli nitemahpilhuia I point at someone > > matlatl nicmatlahuia I catch it with a net > > metztli mometzhuia she has her monthly period > > molicpitl temolicpihuia he elbows someone > > nexayotl quinexayohuia he treats it with ashes and water > > octli mochuia he gets drunk > > Is there a better way to look at words like these? > > Joe > > > > Quoting John Sullivan : > >> Mis estimados listeros, >> A problem we have all had is accepting the fact that, for example >> coyo:ni goes to coyoctli, then coyoctic; and chicahui/chicahua goes >> to chicactic. In other words, why does hu or n sometimes change to c? >> I have seen some explanations that point to historical phonological >> processes, but I think there may be a simpler explanation. We know >> that Nahuatl, as an agglutinating language has a smaller amount of >> word roots than other languages, and it uses derivational affixes to >> multiply versions of those word roots that can carry meaning. >> Probably the most basic and important derivational process in Nahuatl > >> is verbing. A Nahuatl verbing suffix creates intransitive verbs only. > >> Some look like they create transitive verbs, but it's just because we >> are skipping over a step. Anyway, I think there is a verbing suffix >> that is not talked much about. It is -ca. This is the same -ca that >> has, for many centuries been supposedly immune to reduction, for >> example in cho:ca, even though we see now cho:cqui in Modern >> variants. This is also the same -ca that we see in all of those >> beautiful reduplications that go like this: coyo:ni, cocoyoca, >> coyo:nia:, cocoyotza. I think this verber, for some reason (maybe >> somebody can help with this), had two forms, -qui and -ca (this is >> where we get hua:qui and hua:tza, although I still don't understand >> that process well), the same way that we have a -hui/-hua verber. >> Anyway, getting back to the argument, I have seen many examples now >> of derivations that don't seem to make much sense. For example, how >> come the applicative of cocoyotza is cocoyotzhuilia, when we know >> that the -hu probably came from an o. The answer is that this >> applicative is built on an unattested parallel version of cocoyotza, >> cocoyotzoa (It is unattested for this verb, but in many other forms, >> the two versions coexist). I went off on a tangent again. So what I >> think is that when coyo:ni is transformed into a patientive noun, >> what is actually happening is that an alternative, unattested version >> of coyo:ni, coyoca is used as the base for that transformation. The >> same goes for chica:hui/chica:hua, etc. >> John >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Mon Sep 22 09:35:54 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:35:54 +0200 Subject: paradigns yauh, huallauh Message-ID: ? ?"Michael McCafferty" wrote > > At the same time, I'm not sure what "modern grammarians" you are > referring to above. Modern grammarians do in fact address this issue, > and quite well. > > J. Richard Andrews (1975) in _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_, p. > 67, says, (...)? Sullivan's contemporaneous publication (...) > Karttunen's and Campbell's "Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar" (vol. > 1, p. 47) says, (...) ? ? I say "many", not all. Let me put it this way: there are still (many? I can delete that if you like) people who list yauh and huallauh as two different verbs, and in my opinion they are wrong. Those who do not are right. I hope this settles the (minor) issue. M.L. > > ? ? > By the way, I object to considering hu?llauh as a verb of its own, > > and I?m afraid that in so doing, many colonial and modern grammarians > > are influenced by the fact that in European languages there are two > > different verbs to translate yauh and hu?llauh. But it is clearly > > hu?l- + yauh, with the directional prefix hu?l- which marks ?motion > > toward? (so hu?l-yauh is ?go closer?). > > > Best regards, > > Michael McCafferty ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 10:31:34 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 06:31:34 -0400 Subject: [Na. huat-l] paradigns yauh, huallauh In-Reply-To: <66057607.7594.1411378554946.JavaMail.www@wwinf1e23> Message-ID: No, I don't think that solves the problem, sir. Who are these "many"? It would be good to know that. Quoting M Launey : > ? > > ?"Michael McCafferty" wrote > >> >> At the same time, I'm not sure what "modern grammarians" you are >> referring to above. Modern grammarians do in fact address this issue, >> and quite well. >> >> J. Richard Andrews (1975) in _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_, p. >> 67, says, (...)? Sullivan's contemporaneous publication (...) >> Karttunen's and Campbell's "Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar" (vol. >> 1, p. 47) says, (...) > > ? > > ? > > I say "many", not all. > Let me put it this way: there are still (many? I can delete that if > you like) people who list yauh and huallauh as two different verbs, > and in my opinion they are wrong. Those who do not are right. > > I hope this settles the (minor) issue. > > M.L. > > >> >> > > ? > > ? > >> By the way, I object to considering hu?llauh as a verb of its own, >> > and I?m afraid that in so doing, many colonial and modern grammarians >> > are influenced by the fact that in European languages there are two >> > different verbs to translate yauh and hu?llauh. But it is clearly >> > hu?l- + yauh, with the directional prefix hu?l- which marks ?motion >> > toward? (so hu?l-yauh is ?go closer?). >> > >> >> Best regards, >> >> Michael McCafferty > > ? > > ? > > ? > > ? > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From moyporfirio at hotmail.com Mon Sep 22 17:53:04 2014 From: moyporfirio at hotmail.com (Moises Aparicio) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:53:04 +0000 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: hi; i need your help; i need to know how is the pronunciation of the word ?hecatl = Cerro del viento thanks for your help. God B.Y. > From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 12:00:02 -0500 > > Send Nahuatl mailing list submissions to > nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nahuatl-owner at lists.famsi.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nahuatl digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hu/n>c (John Sullivan) > 2. Codex Chimalpahin (John Schwaller) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 23:32:26 +0200 > From: John Sullivan > To: list nahuatl discussion > Subject: [Nahuat-l] hu/n>c > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Mis estimados listeros, > A problem we have all had is accepting the fact that, for example coyo:ni goes to coyoctli, then coyoctic; and chicahui/chicahua goes to chicactic. In other words, why does hu or n sometimes change to c? I have seen some explanations that point to historical phonological processes, but I think there may be a simpler explanation. We know that Nahuatl, as an agglutinating language has a smaller amount of word roots than other languages, and it uses derivational affixes to multiply versions of those word roots that can carry meaning. Probably the most basic and important derivational process in Nahuatl is verbing. A Nahuatl verbing suffix creates intransitive verbs only. Some look like they create transitive verbs, but it?s just because we are skipping over a step. Anyway, I think there is a verbing suffix that is not talked much about. It is -ca. This is the same -ca that has, for many centuries been supposedly immune to reduction, for example in cho:ca, even though we see now cho:cqui in Modern variants. This is also the same -ca that we see in all of those beautiful reduplications that go like this: coyo:ni, cocoyoca, coyo:nia:, cocoyotza. I think this verber, for some reason (maybe somebody can help with this), had two forms, -qui and -ca (this is where we get hua:qui and hua:tza, although I still don?t understand that process well), the same way that we have a -hui/-hua verber. Anyway, getting back to the argument, I have seen many examples now of derivations that don't seem to make much sense. For example, how come the applicative of cocoyotza is cocoyotzhuilia, when we know that the -hu probably came from an o. The answer is that this applicative is built on an unattested parallel version of cocoyotza, cocoyotzoa (It is unattested for this verb, but in many other forms, the two versions coexist). I went off on a tangent again. So what I think is that when coyo:ni is transformed into a patientive noun, what is actually happening is that an alternative, unattested version of coyo:ni, coyoca is used as the base for that transformation. The same goes for chica:hui/chica:hua, etc. > John > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 08:23:19 -0400 > From: John Schwaller > To: "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Subject: [Nahuat-l] Codex Chimalpahin > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Art Daily has a longer article about the return of the Codex Chimalpahin to > Mexico: > > http://tinyurl.com/k4s8ohl > > > -- > John F. Schwaller > Professor, > University at Albany > 1400 Washington Ave. > Albany NY 12222 > > jfschwaller at gmail.com > 315-212-0064 > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 18:25:12 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:25:12 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Moises Aparicio : > hi; i need your help; i need to know how is the pronunciation of the word > ?hecatl = Cerro del viento > > thanks for your help. > God B.Y. Good question. It looks like it had two pronunciations in the old days. But first, your term means 'viento' not 'cerro del viento. For your term, Andrews has Ehehcatl. This would be phonetic [e???katl], where [?] is a glottal stop and [tl] is a single consonant. It's written as a digraph with the [-l] sometimes superscripted to show that release of this consonant occurs off the sides of the tongue. In some modern dialects this sound is [t] or [l]. The acute accent mark over the second [e] shows that the second syllable receives the "stress". I can't reproduce Karttunen's spelling by email font but here's the gist of it: EHE:CATL This is phonetic [e??:katl]. Kartunnen notes that most sources evince the second pronunciation, but the one noted by Andrews is also attested according to Karttunen. Best regards, Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From micc2 at cox.net Mon Sep 22 18:38:18 2014 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2 at cox.net) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:38:18 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: wouldn't it be ehecatepec? Like today's "Ecatepec" outside of Mexico City.... ...."Good question. It looks like it had two pronunciations in the old days. But first, your term means 'viento' not 'cerro del viento. For your term, Andrews has Ehehcatl......" _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 18:45:41 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:45:41 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <20140922143818.SQGLX.349587.imail@eastrmwml106> Message-ID: Quoting micc2 at cox.net: > wouldn't it be ehecatepec? Like today's "Ecatepec" outside of Mexico City.... > > > > ...."Good question. It looks like it had two pronunciations in the old days. > > But first, your term means 'viento' not 'cerro del viento. > > For your term, Andrews has Ehehcatl......" > Yes, that would "Cerro del viento", literally 'wind-hill-at'. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From jfschwaller at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 19:17:13 2014 From: jfschwaller at gmail.com (John Schwaller) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:17:13 -0400 Subject: List ettiquette Message-ID: Colleagues: We have been having some great conversations, thanks to some queries from John Sullivan, and others. For general housekeeping I would like to remind list members of a couple of suggestions, which seem to have been regularly ignored: 1. When replying, do not just hit "Reply" especially is you subscribe to the Digest. Compose a fresh message. If you do use the "Reply" function, make sure that the Subject line reflects the actual conversation not: "Re: Nahuatl Digest Vol 666, Issue 6" or the like. 2. When replying to a long conversation, PLEASE delete the older messages where possible. It is annoying to get a post which is hundreds of lines long, and quotes many, many other messages. Tlazohcamati huel miac J. F. Schwaller, List owner -- John F. Schwaller Professor, University at Albany 1400 Washington Ave. Albany NY 12222 jfschwaller at gmail.com 315-212-0064 _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Mon Sep 22 20:59:28 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 22:59:28 +0200 Subject: (eh)ecatl In-Reply-To: <20140922143818.SQGLX.349587.imail@eastrmwml106> Message-ID: Yes, ??Cerro del viento?? es Ecatepec (/eka-tepe:-k/ or possibly /e:ka-tepe:-k/) In the common word for ??wind??, written ehecatl, ?ecatl or just eecatl in the texts, we find a reduplication with saltillo. The pronunciation of the saltillo is unclear from the descriptions of classical Nahuatl. In modern dialects, you can find a glottal occlusive /?/ or spirant /h/, according to the dialect and/or the place in the word (and sometimes it is just mute), but I must confess that I'm not very proficient in modern Nahuatl dialectology. I can?t remember seeing ecatl in the corpus, but it is very common in composition, such as (precisely) Ecatepec, eca-toc-o ??he is pushed by the wind??, etc. (there is half a page of such compound words in Molina?s dictionary). For the length of /e/?: I do not know convincing evidence. I can?t find the word (nor the verb eheca, ?eca) in Carochi?s (1645) nor in Aldama and Guevara?s (1754) grammars, that mark vowel length. Karttunen in her dictionary gives it long?: eh?ca = /e??ka/. Maybe she takes some evidence from the Bancroft Dialogues, where vowel length is also marked, but she doesn't mention it and I realize that my copy of the Bancroft has been lost somewhere in my latest move. As far as I know, there is no evidence for /e?/. In Milpa Alta, where the saltillo would appear very clearly in this position, you find yehyecatl (with the common diphtongization of initial /e/, and an unfortunately unclear vowel length), not *yehyehcatl. I?m ready to consider other evidence. Best M.L. > Message du 22/09/14 20:44 > De : micc2 at cox.net > A : nahuatl at lists.famsi.org, "Michael McCafferty" > Copie ? : > Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] Nahuatl Digest, Vol 350, Issue 2 > > wouldn't it be ehecatepec? Like today's "Ecatepec" outside of Mexico City.... > > > > ...."Good question. It looks like it had two pronunciations in the old days. > > But first, your term means 'viento' not 'cerro del viento. > > For your term, Andrews has Ehehcatl......" > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 23:52:45 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:52:45 -0400 Subject: a color question Message-ID: A question for those who study modern dialects: Does the color word /e:lo:tik/ "elotic" exist in your dialect(s)? If so, what color is it? Thank you. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Sep 23 02:40:00 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 21:40:00 -0500 Subject: coto:ni, cocotoca Message-ID: Listeros, Does anyone have any ideas regarding the difference in vowel length between the verb pairs involving an intransitive verb and its reduplicated form, such as coto:ni and cocotoca? John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Tue Sep 23 02:53:55 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 21:53:55 -0500 Subject: pechia Message-ID: Listeros, I think I have written to the list before about the small group of verbs, such as quechia, atimia, pechia, etc. Although quechia could be explained as coming from quetza, both atimia and pechia seem to consist of a noun root plus a verbing suffix that, along the line of Joe?s recent posting, seem to create a transitive verb. I?m still perplexed by these verbs. Any ideas? I?m especially intrested in pechia. Richard Andrews suggests a derivation (perhaps patientive) from some verb form based on petla-. One way or the other, I think the root of pechia is the noun pechtli. (And I think the root of quechia is quechtli. My impression is that their roots are either regular nouns or patientive nouns, that are (re)verbed with -i into an unattested intransitive bridge form, then made benefactive with -a. And at some point I would like to argue that all benefactive verbs are formed this way, including all -lia?s and -huia?s. John _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Sep 24 13:13:06 2014 From: campbel at indiana.edu (Campbell, R. Joe) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 09:13:06 -0400 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey John and Listeros, Due to my bad bookkeeping, I can't find the statement about one of the "-ti" verbers, the 'have' one, not the 'be, become' one. Nevertheless, even in this vacuum, I wanted to present a reminder that the intransitive "-ti" occurs not infrequently without the transitivizing causative suffix "-a". If the list contains errors, I would appreciate having it pointed out. Joe apiztli apizti to be hungry caquiztli caquizti to make a clear sound cuazahuatl cuazahuati to have head mange elli elti to come to huelitl hueliti to be able huictli huicti to wield a hoe petlatl icpalli petlati icpalti to rule tequitl tequiti to work (ih)iztlacatl (ih)iztlacati to lie ixzahuatl ixzahuati to have face scabies nahuatl nahuati to have a clear sound nanahuatl nanahuati to have pustules nantli nanti to have a mother ohxitl ohxiti to have resin otztli otzti to be pregnant pahtli pahti to be cured quequelli quequelti to be dignified quiyotl quiyoti it forms a stalk tencolli tencolti it has a curved bill tenhuitztli tenhuitzti it has a pointed bill tzintli tzinti it begins xiotl xioti he has skin sores _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Wed Sep 24 21:10:09 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 23:10:09 +0200 Subject: -ti verber Message-ID: Estimados listeros y colegas First of all, note that what follows holds for Classical Nahuatl only, since my knowledge of modern dialects is somewhat scarce and superficial. To say that ?ti ??occurs not infrequently?? is an understatement. Actually, the list of intransitive ?ti verbs that occur in the corpus could amount to tens and maybe hundreds of items. I bet ?ti is the most productive verbal suffix (more than ?tia), and that it can be added to nearly every noun stem (except maybe proper nouns)?; and even to quite a few adverbs. See?: Cuix tim?ztlatizqu?, tihu?ptlatizqu??? ??Will we live until tomorrow or the day after????, i.e. ??Will we survive?????; Ye te?tlac-ti ??It?s getting late?? etc. (it seems to me that ?tia could not appear in such contexts, at least I can?t remember seeing it in the corpus). The most common translation of -ti is indeed ??be?? or ??act like??, ??behave like??, or sometimes ??become??, but I suggest it could better be viewed in a more abstract sense, like?: introducing tense-aspect to a notion that by itself is aspectually neutral, or stable. For instance, ?(Ca) t?uc-tli? means ??he is a lord?? (and nothing is said about how this status is acquired, lost or exerted, while ?(Ca) t?uc-ti? is something like ??his being a lord/the fact that he is a lord is not just a timeless property, but is realized in some segment of time by actions (he acts like?, he fulfills?) or evolution, or modification, or coming to realization (he becomes?)??. This abstract meaning allows for more atypical cases like tequiti ??act in such a way that the tequitl exists?? or m?ztlati ??be able to make tomorrow exist just by living so far??. I feel my English is a bit clumsy to express that. By the way?: n?n-ti does not mean ??have a mother??, but ??act like a mother?? (tin?nti, tit?ti is ??you act like a mother and a father??, i. e. you take care of s.o., you protect. By the way again?: semantically, verbs in ?tia are not causatives of verbs of ?ti. For instance, Ti-t?uc-ti means ??You rule, you act as a lord?? or ??you become a lord??, but e.g. ni-mitz-t?uc-tia does not mean ??I make a lord of you??, but ??I give you a lord??, ??I establish a political power for you??. There is a ditransitive use of these verbs, e.g. ni-mitz-no-teuc-tia ??I take you as my lord??, ??I give myself a lord with you?? (pardon the clumsiness again). This is interesting, because it gives us some hints about the complex derivational processes in Nahuatl morphology. For obvious reasons, everyone will say (and so will I) that in a form like ni-mitz-tla-cua-ltia we have the causative of cua (ti-tla-cua ??you eat?? > ni-mitz-tla-cua-ltia ??I make you eat??). But let us see that otherwise. Deverbal ??object nouns?? in /tla-?-l-li/ like tla-cua-l-li ??food, something that is eaten?? can be formed very freely on transitive verb stems, so that we could analyze the causative as ni-mitz-tla-cua-l-tia ??I give you food (tla-cua-l-li)", which brings us back to the ni-mitz-t?uc-tia example above. Of course, there are objections to that, since the parallel is only partial. I have chosen an example that ??works??, and not all causatives can be interpreted in the same way. Moreover, I have chosen an example with the indefinite object ?tla-, but you can have a definite object (which in this case will be ??absorbed?? by the other object, e.g. ni-mitz-cua-l-tia inin nacatl ??I give you this meat to eat??. Nevertheless, there is a striking morphological construction, which against shows us that Nahuatl is a highly sophisticated language. (Well, the more I see languages, the more I think all of them are sophisticated, but I have a special fondness for Nahuatl) Best Michel Launey > Message du 24/09/14 15:13 > De : "Campbell, ?R. Joe" > A : "John Sullivan" > Copie ? : "list nahuatl discussion" > Objet : [Nahuat-l] -ti verber > > Hey John and Listeros, > > Due to my bad bookkeeping, I can't find the statement about one of the "-ti" > verbers, the 'have' one, not the 'be, become' one. Nevertheless, even in this > vacuum, I wanted to present a reminder that the intransitive "-ti" occurs not > infrequently without the transitivizing causative suffix "-a". > > If the list contains errors, I would appreciate having it pointed out. > > Joe > > > > tequitl tequiti to work > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From idiez at me.com Thu Sep 25 00:01:24 2014 From: idiez at me.com (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:01:24 -0500 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: <1568520565.34416.1411593009740.JavaMail.www@wwinf1p22> Message-ID: Notlazohmahuicicnihuan, Joe (and me too because he taught me) distinguishes between two -ti verbing suffixes. One means "to become or to become like" the attached noun. And this verber takes the -lia causative suffix. So, for example: tlacatl + ti = tlacati, ?to become a person, to be born?, and tlacati + lia = tlacatilia, ?to cause s.o. to become a person, to engender s.o.? The other -ti verber means ?to have s.t.? and it only takes the -a causative suffix. So: calli + ti = calti, ?to have a house?, and calti + -a = caltia, ?to cause s.o. to have a house, to provide s.o. with a house?. Many people get mixed up and think that -tia is a verber that means ?to provide s.o. or s.t. with s.o. or s.t.?. And besides, i still don?t think there are any verbers that make transitive verbs directly. The only -tia verber I?m aware of, although I think it will at some point be proved to have two morphemes, is the one that makes verbs related to time, such as cemilhuitia, etc. John > On Sep 24, 2014, at 16:10, M Launey wrote: > > Estimados listeros y colegas > > First of all, note that what follows holds for Classical Nahuatl only, since my knowledge of modern dialects is somewhat scarce and superficial. > > To say that ?ti ? occurs not infrequently ? is an understatement. Actually, the list of intransitive ?ti verbs that occur in the corpus could amount to tens and maybe hundreds of items. I bet ?ti is the most productive verbal suffix (more than ?tia), and that it can be added to nearly every noun stem (except maybe proper nouns) ; and even to quite a few adverbs. See : Cuix tim?ztlatizqu?, tihu?ptlatizqu? ? ? Will we live until tomorrow or the day after ? ?, i.e. ? Will we survive ? ? ; Ye te?tlac-ti ? It?s getting late ? etc. (it seems to me that ?tia could not appear in such contexts, at least I can?t remember seeing it in the corpus). > > The most common translation of -ti is indeed ? be ? or ? act like ?, ? behave like ?, or sometimes ? become ?, but I suggest it could better be viewed in a more abstract sense, like : introducing tense-aspect to a notion that by itself is aspectually neutral, or stable. For instance, ?(Ca) t?uc-tli? means ? he is a lord ? (and nothing is said about how this status is acquired, lost or exerted, while ?(Ca) t?uc-ti? is something like ? his being a lord/the fact that he is a lord is not just a timeless property, but is realized in some segment of time by actions (he acts like?, he fulfills?) or evolution, or modification, or coming to realization (he becomes?) ?. This abstract meaning allows for more atypical cases like tequiti ? act in such a way that the tequitl exists ? or m?ztlati ? be able to make tomorrow exist just by living so far ?. I feel my English is a bit clumsy to express that. > > By the way : n?n-ti does not mean ? have a mother ?, but ? act like a mother ? (tin?nti, tit?ti is ? you act like a mother and a father ?, i. e. you take care of s.o., you protect. > > By the way again : semantically, verbs in ?tia are not causatives of verbs of ?ti. For instance, Ti-t?uc-ti means ? You rule, you act as a lord ? or ? you become a lord ?, but e.g. ni-mitz-t?uc-tia does not mean ? I make a lord of you ?, but ? I give you a lord ?, ? I establish a political power for you ?. There is a ditransitive use of these verbs, e.g. ni-mitz-no-teuc-tia ? I take you as my lord ?, ? I give myself a lord with you ? (pardon the clumsiness again). > > This is interesting, because it gives us some hints about the complex derivational processes in Nahuatl morphology. For obvious reasons, everyone will say (and so will I) that in a form like ni-mitz-tla-cua-ltia we have the causative of cua (ti-tla-cua ? you eat ? > ni-mitz-tla-cua-ltia ? I make you eat ?). But let us see that otherwise. Deverbal ? object nouns ? in /tla-?-l-li/ like tla-cua-l-li ? food, something that is eaten ? can be formed very freely on transitive verb stems, so that we could analyze the causative as ni-mitz-tla-cua-l-tia ? I give you food (tla-cua-l-li)", which brings us back to the ni-mitz-t?uc-tia example above. > > Of course, there are objections to that, since the parallel is only partial. I have chosen an example that ? works ?, and not all causatives can be interpreted in the same way. Moreover, I have chosen an example with the indefinite object ?tla-, but you can have a definite object (which in this case will be ? absorbed ? by the other object, e.g. ni-mitz-cua-l-tia inin nacatl ? I give you this meat to eat ?. Nevertheless, there is a striking morphological construction, which against shows us that Nahuatl is a highly sophisticated language. > > (Well, the more I see languages, the more I think all of them are sophisticated, but I have a special fondness for Nahuatl) > > Best > > Michel Launey > > > > > > > > > Message du 24/09/14 15:13 > > De : "Campbell, R. Joe" > > A : "John Sullivan" > > Copie ? : "list nahuatl discussion" > > Objet : [Nahuat-l] -ti verber > > > > Hey John and Listeros, > > > > Due to my bad bookkeeping, I can't find the statement about one of the "-ti" > > verbers, the 'have' one, not the 'be, become' one. Nevertheless, even in this > > vacuum, I wanted to present a reminder that the intransitive "-ti" occurs not > > infrequently without the transitivizing causative suffix "-a". > > > > If the list contains errors, I would appreciate having it pointed out. > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > tequitl tequiti to work > > > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 25 12:41:37 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:41:37 +0200 Subject: -ti verber Message-ID: Dear John and listeros I?m puzzled by this translation -ti = ??have??. I?m away for a week from my books, and I will check as soon as I can, but I can?t remember a single clear occurrence in the Classical Nahuatl corpus of a ?ti verb meaning ??have??. To express ??I have a mother??, in the usual, straightforward sense, I know two ways. The most common one is ?ni-n?n-?? (or ni-n?n-eh, if you like), i.e. something like ??I?m mothered??. The other one, less frequent, is ?on-c? (or oncah) no-n?n?, lit. ??My mother exists??. Milpa Alta and possibly quite a few other modern dialects have developed piya, originally ??keep?? or ??have by/on oneself?? (custodiar, o llevar encima) corresponding to most uses of Spanish ??tener??, and so in these dialects you would say ?nicpiya nonan?. It may be the case that some modern dialects say ?ninanti?, but again this lacks in Classical Nahuatl. We also have to be careful about the so-called ??meaning?? of verbs like ??have?? or ??be?? in languages that do have such verbs. The fact that these verbs lack in many other languages, and that such languages nevertheless express pretty well the same notions and relations, shows that ??have?? or ??be?? actually mark a complex set of relations, and if we try to find what is common to these relations (for instance in ??have a mother??, ??have a house??, ??have to?? (as a duty or a necessity), ??have s.o. do sth.?? (causative sense) or ??have read?? (past perfect)), we come to abstract relations such as ??mutual position of two entities or two notions ?. So, although I do not remember so, it may be the case that some compound words NS (Noun Stem) + -ti can be translated by ??have?? in English, but it would certainly be an atypical subcase of the use of ??have?? in English, and certainly different from ??have a mother?? or ??have a house??, which are expressed by possessive nouns (in /-e?/ or /-wa?/) or with the existential onc?. There obviously is a dissymetry between ?ti verbs based on animate vs. inanimate nouns. While cal-tia is amply attested in the corpus, I don?t think you will find cal-ti, and if you do, it will mean ??be a house?? which is nevertheless improbable (because a house is a house, and you can hardly introduce aspect ??behave like a house??), or more likely ??act in such a way that a house exists??, i.e. ??make a house??, like tequiti ??make the tequitl??. But I don?t remember having seen any of these uses of a possible cal-ti. So you may be right is saying that ?tia has to be analyzed ?ti+ a, if this is the way I understand your claim that there are no direct transitive verbers (even if the case of ?huia remains), but the semantic relation of ?ti vs. ?tia verbs is definitely not a causative, but rather an applicative one. Maybe we should again consider that all this sums up to abstract relations, and that ?tia (or maybe just the final ?a) does not basically mark causation, but the presence of an adjunct, a new participant to the process, that can be interpreted as a dative (in the case of applicatives) or a ????new?? agent (in the case of causative). Sorry to be long once more, but the issue is indeed interesting. One more remark. I confirm the existence of an intransitive ?tia in verbs like cemilhuitia, cexiuhtia ??spend a (whole) day, a (whole) year??. I must confess I have no satisfying explanation so far. Best Michel > Message du 25/09/14 02:01 > De : "John Sullivan" > A : "M Launey" > Copie ? : "Campbell R. Joe" , "list nahuatl discussion" > Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] -ti verber > >Notlazohmahuicicnihuan, Joe (and me too because he taught me) distinguishes between two -ti verbing suffixes. One means "to become or to become like" the attached noun. And this verber takes the -lia causative suffix. So, for example: tlacatl + ti = tlacati, ?to become a person, to be born?, and tlacati + lia = tlacatilia, ?to cause s.o. to become a person, to engender s.o.? The other -ti verber means ?to have s.t.? and it only takes the -a causative suffix. So:? calli + ti = calti, ?to have a house?, and calti + -a = caltia, ?to cause s.o. to have a house, to provide s.o. with a house?. Many people get mixed up and think that -tia is a verber that means ?to provide s.o. or s.t. with s.o. or s.t.?. And besides, i still don?t think there are any verbers that make transitive verbs directly. The only -tia verber I?m aware of, although I think it will at some point be proved to have two morphemes, is the one that makes verbs related to time, such as cemilhuitia, etc. John ? _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 25 15:34:14 2014 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:34:14 -0700 Subject: Jalisco Nahuatl Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From clayton at indiana.edu Thu Sep 25 19:06:56 2014 From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:06:56 -0400 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: <1037750716.16711.1411648897134.JavaMail.www@wwinf1p02> Message-ID: Michel and Listeros, As John said, in Joe?s system, which parallels Andrews' in this regard, he has two ti- verbers: v01a ti- 'be', 'become', and v04 'have'. V01a forms its causative by adding -lia (caus04), while v04 forms its causative by adding -a (caus08). Below are some examples of intransitive verbs in v04 -ti- 'have' (from Joe's list of 9/24. For transparency, I am not using Joe?s numbering for pronimal prefixes. These examples are taken from his databases). ontzinti 'it begins' FC bk 8 o:n-tzi:ntli- v04 'it has a beginning'. tzinti 'comen?arse algo' 55m = 'for something to have a beginning' cf. nitlatzintia 'comenzar algo', 'fundar o principiar alguna cosa' m55 = to cause something to have a beginning' ohxiti 'it has resin' FC bk 11 ohza-l2-v04 ahnihueliti 'no poder o no tener oportunidad para hazer algo' 55m, 71m1, 71m2 cf. nitehuelitia 'dar facultad, poder y autoridad a otro para hazer algo 71m2 huictih 'they wield a hoe' FC bk7 nitequiti 'servuir el esclauo' 71m1, 'contribuir dar tributo' 55m, 'obra dar' 55m = ?for a slave to have work, duty? cf. nitetequitia 'ocupar a otro dandole algun tequiuh' 71m1; repartir tequios' 71m1 = ?I give someone work, a duty?. ompahtih ?they get well?FC Bk12 = ?They have medicine? opahtic ?he got well? FC Bk 10 = ?He had medicine? cf. nimitzpahtia ?I cure you? FC Bk 5 = ?I cause you to have medicine? cf. nitepahtia ?sanar a otro? 55m, 71m1, 71m2 = ?I cause someone to have medicine? Indeed, v04 with the causative is more common. I give some additional examples below. The point is that the ti- in these cases means ?have? and not ?be, become?. ninocactia 'calzar zapatos; calzarse zapatos o sandalias' ='I cause myself to have shoes' certainly not 'I cause myself to BE shoes' ninocamisahtia 'vestirse la camisa' = ?I cause myself to have a camisa? nicahuallocactia 'herrar bestias' = 'I cause a horse to have shoes'. ninonantia, 'tomar por madre' . = 'I cause myself to have a mother'. nitenantia 'dar aotro alguna por madre, o por madrina'. = 'I cause someone to have a mother' NOTE that the Spanish equivalents are Molina?s. They mean ?give? = ?cause to have?, not ?be/become?. naltepetzintia 'poblar cibdad o lugar'. 'to found a city' 'to start a city' = 'to cause a city to have a beginning' moamahtlapaltia 'echar ojas los arboles' 71m1, 71m2 = 'for a tree to leaf out, for a tree to cause itself to have "wings"'. nitlaayotia 'aguar algo; aguar el vino; etc.' 55m ' = 'I cause something to have watery-ness' COMPARE THE V01a for a:tl with a verber: nicatilia ?I melt it?. = ?I cause it to BE / BE LIKE water. This is v01a and it takes a different causative. ninocaltia 'edificar para si; edificar edificio para si' = I cause myself to have a house' nitecaltia 'edificar casa a otro' = 'I cause someone to have a house. ninochimaltia 'escudarse' = 'I cause myself to have a shield' Sometimes we see a second object. For the moment at least, these are puzzling because there is another object with no additional verbal morphology, but the meanings seem to work the same, and Molina has some variation in the number of objects with the same meanings e.g. both ninotahtia and nicnotahtia ?tomar a otro por padre? = ?to cause myself to have a father. nicnaxcatia 'apropriar para si' 71m1, 'aplicar, o apropriar para si alguna cosa' 71m2, 'apropriar hazer proprio' 55m . = 'I cause myself to have a possession' niteaxcatia 'dotar hija a otra persona; dotar; enagenar' = ?I cause someone to have a possession. Best, Mary Quoting M Launey : > > Dear John and listeros > > I?m puzzled by this translation -ti = ??have??. I?m away for a week > from my books, and I will check as soon as I can, but I can?t > remember a single clear occurrence in the Classical Nahuatl corpus of > a ?ti verb meaning ??have??. > > To express ??I have a mother??, in the usual, straightforward sense, > I know two ways. The most common one is ?ni-n?n-?? (or ni-n?n-eh, if > you like), i.e. something like ??I?m mothered??. The other one, less > frequent, is ?on-c? (or oncah) no-n?n?, lit. ??My mother exists??. > Milpa Alta and possibly quite a few other modern dialects have > developed piya, originally ??keep?? or ??have by/on oneself?? > (custodiar, o llevar encima) corresponding to most uses of Spanish > ??tener??, and so in these dialects you would say ?nicpiya nonan?. It > may be the case that some modern dialects say ?ninanti?, but again > this lacks in Classical Nahuatl. > > We also have to be careful about the so-called ??meaning?? of verbs > like ??have?? or ??be?? in languages that do have such verbs. The > fact that these verbs lack in many other languages, and that such > languages nevertheless express pretty well the same notions and > relations, shows that ??have?? or ??be?? actually mark a complex set > of relations, and if we try to find what is common to these relations > (for instance in ??have a mother??, ??have a house??, ??have to?? (as > a duty or a necessity), ??have s.o. do sth.?? (causative sense) or > ??have read?? (past perfect)), we come to abstract relations such as > ??mutual position of two entities or two notions ?. So, although I do > not remember so, it may be the case that some compound words NS (Noun > Stem) + -ti can be translated by ??have?? in English, but it would > certainly be an atypical subcase of the use of ??have?? in English, > and certainly different from ??have a mother?? or ??have a house??, > which are expressed by possessive nouns (in /-e?/ or /-wa?/) or with > the existential onc?. > > There obviously is a dissymetry between ?ti verbs based on animate > vs. inanimate nouns. While cal-tia is amply attested in the corpus, I > don?t think you will find cal-ti, and if you do, it will mean ??be a > house?? which is nevertheless improbable (because a house is a house, > and you can hardly introduce aspect ??behave like a house??), or more > likely ??act in such a way that a house exists??, i.e. ??make a > house??, like tequiti ??make the tequitl??. But I don?t remember > having seen any of these uses of a possible cal-ti. > > So you may be right is saying that ?tia has to be analyzed ?ti+ a, if > this is the way I understand your claim that there are no direct > transitive verbers (even if the case of ?huia remains), but the > semantic relation of ?ti vs. ?tia verbs is definitely not a > causative, but rather an applicative one. Maybe we should again > consider that all this sums up to abstract relations, and that ?tia > (or maybe just the final ?a) does not basically mark causation, but > the presence of an adjunct, a new participant to the process, that > can be interpreted as a dative (in the case of applicatives) or a > ????new?? agent (in the case of causative). > > Sorry to be long once more, but the issue is indeed interesting. > > One more remark. I confirm the existence of an intransitive ?tia in > verbs like cemilhuitia, cexiuhtia ??spend a (whole) day, a (whole) > year??. I must confess I have no satisfying explanation so far. > > Best > > Michel _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 25 18:02:32 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:02:32 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: -ti verber Message-ID: Quoting M Launey : > > > Dear John and listeros > > We also have to be careful about the so-called ??meaning?? of verbs > like ??have?? or ??be?? in languages that do have such verbs. I think this is a very good point. Algonquian languages don't differentiate inceptives versus statives. So there's no difference between "become angry" and "be angry", "be asleep" and "fall asleep", "be a manitou" and "become a manitou", etc. This appears to go back to Proto-Algonquian. Michael _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 25 17:57:20 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:57:20 -0400 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: <1037750716.16711.1411648897134.JavaMail.www@wwinf1p02> Message-ID: John: Like Mr. Launey I am puzzled by your idea that -ti can mean 'have'. If I say to myself "nicaltih," that sounds to me like "I became a house"...maybe playing with the kids or creating something in my imagination. It wouldn't mean "I have a house". I'm having trouble finding examples of a verb in -ti with a noun stem that means 'have'. tetl..teti...niteti...hmmm... Can you provide some examples where we find -ti meaning 'have'? That might help. Much obliged, Michael Quoting M Launey : > > > Dear John and listeros > > I?m puzzled by this translation -ti = ??have??. I?m away for a week > from my books, and I will check as soon as I can, but I can?t > remember a single clear occurrence in the Classical Nahuatl corpus of > a ?ti verb meaning ??have??. > > Message du 25/09/14 02:01 >> De : "John Sullivan" >> A : "M Launey" >> Copie ? : "Campbell R. Joe" , "list nahuatl discussion" >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] -ti verber >> >> > calli + ti = calti, ?to have a house?, > John > ? > __ _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Thu Sep 25 22:19:58 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:19:58 -0500 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: <20140925135720.14vjhpecuyo48kk8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, tomahicnihuan! I think I have a good example from current nahuat: Nichanti Cuetzalan: I live in Cuetzalan; I HAVE my house in Cuetzalan. But: If it were an old house telling its story, the house could say: Mazqui nicalzol yn axcan, in nitechanti oc: although I am an old house today, I am still a house for the people/ although I am already old and run down, I can still BE a home for the people. Namechoyoltlapalohua! Tomas Amaya > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:57:20 -0400 > From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] -ti verber > > John: > > Like Mr. Launey I am puzzled by your idea that -ti can mean 'have'. If > I say to myself "nicaltih," that sounds to me like "I became a > house"...maybe playing with the kids or creating something in my > imagination. It wouldn't mean "I have a house". I'm having trouble > finding examples of a verb in -ti with a noun stem that means 'have'. > tetl..teti...niteti...hmmm... > > Can you provide some examples where we find -ti meaning 'have'? That > might help. > > Much obliged, > > Michael > > > Quoting M Launey : > > > > > > > Dear John and listeros > > > > I?m puzzled by this translation -ti = ? have ?. I?m away for a week > > from my books, and I will check as soon as I can, but I can?t > > remember a single clear occurrence in the Classical Nahuatl corpus of > > a ?ti verb meaning ? have ?. > > > > Message du 25/09/14 02:01 > >> De : "John Sullivan" > >> A : "M Launey" > >> Copie ? : "Campbell R. Joe" , "list nahuatl discussion" > >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] -ti verber > >> > >> > > calli + ti = calti, ?to have a house?, > > John > > > > __ > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Fri Sep 26 07:00:46 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:00:46 +0200 Subject: -ti verber Message-ID: Dear Mary, Tomas and listeros I'm going to be very hectic these next days because I'll be moving and that's exhausting -and depressing-, so please allow me a few days for a detailed answer Tomas, thanks for reminding me of chanti, which also exists in Milpa Alta, and puzzled me a moment when I heard it for the first time. Let me point out that it is chanti, not calti: it is important, I'll explain why. Mary, thanks for your examples taken from the corpus, that's food for thought at any rate. I'll try to explain why most of them are unconvincing, and analyze the ones that seem more convincing Let me just repeat what I wrote, admittedly in an awkward way, in my preceding message: ? We also have to be careful about the so-called ??meaning?? of verbs > > like ??have?? or ??be?? in languages that do have such verbs. The > > fact that these verbs lack in many other languages, and that such > > languages nevertheless express pretty well the same notions and > > relations, shows that ??have?? or ??be?? actually mark a complex set > > of relations, and if we try to find what is common to these relations ,(....) we come to abstract relations such as > > ??mutual position of two entities or two notions ?. So, although I do > > not remember so, it may be the case that some compound words NS (Noun > > Stem) + -ti can be translated by ??have?? in English, but it would > > certainly be an atypical subcase of the use of ??have?? in English, > > and certainly different from ??have a mother?? or ??have a house??, > > which are expressed by possessive nouns (in /-e?/ or /-wa?/) or with > > the existential onc?. ? My point is that your apparently most convincing examples (namely: pahti and maybe hueliti) confort this position. Very interesting for me as a native French speaker is that the French word-to-word translations of your English glosses (i.e. with "avoir" instead of "have") do not come to the required meaning of the Nahuatl word. This may be part of a misunderstanding, but also a good opportunity to delve into the relevant question: what does "have" mean, or is it meaningful to speak of the meaning of "have"? But please allow me a few days ? Best Michel ? > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From clayton at indiana.edu Fri Sep 26 17:10:29 2014 From: clayton at indiana.edu (Clayton, Mary L.) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 13:10:29 -0400 Subject: -ti verber In-Reply-To: <62417272.2490.1411714846960.JavaMail.www@wwinf1e21> Message-ID: Dear Michel, You certainly have my sympathy with regard to the move. Joe and I went through that twice (last time 1980), and hope never to do it again. I will be interested to hear your comments when you have the time. I think the main point from my point of view is that, whatever the details of the meaning of 'have', this verber is different, both in form and in meaning from the other -ti verber. The meaning of nicahuallocactia 'I shoe a horse', 'I cause a horse to have shoes', involves a first person subject and can hardly involve an equation between 'I' and either 'horse' or 'shoe'. Also, the causative is formed with -a, and not with -lia, as in tlacati, 'he is born', he becomes a person', tetlacatilia 'he engenders someone', 'He causes someone to become a person, to be born'. Joe sends best wishes for the move, Mary Quoting M Launey : > Dear Mary, Tomas and listeros > > I'm going to be very hectic these next days because I'll be moving > and that's exhausting -and depressing-, so please allow me a few days > for a detailed answer > > Tomas, thanks for reminding me of chanti, which also exists in Milpa > Alta, and puzzled me a moment when I heard it for the first time. Let > me point out that it is chanti, not calti: it is important, I'll > explain why. > > Mary, thanks for your examples taken from the corpus, that's food for > thought at any rate. I'll try to explain why most of them are > unconvincing, and analyze the ones that seem more convincing > > Let me just repeat what I wrote, admittedly in an awkward way, in my > preceding message: > > ? > > We also have to be careful about the so-called ??meaning?? of verbs >> > like ??have?? or ??be?? in languages that do have such verbs. The >> > fact that these verbs lack in many other languages, and that such >> > languages nevertheless express pretty well the same notions and >> > relations, shows that ??have?? or ??be?? actually mark a complex set >> > of relations, and if we try to find what is common to these relations > ,(....) we come to abstract relations such as >> > ??mutual position of two entities or two notions ?. So, although I do >> > not remember so, it may be the case that some compound words NS (Noun >> > Stem) + -ti can be translated by ??have?? in English, but it would >> > certainly be an atypical subcase of the use of ??have?? in English, >> > and certainly different from ??have a mother?? or ??have a house??, >> > which are expressed by possessive nouns (in /-e?/ or /-wa?/) or with >> > the existential onc?. > > ? > > My point is that your apparently most convincing examples (namely: > pahti and maybe hueliti) confort this position. Very interesting for > me as a native French speaker is that the French word-to-word > translations of your English glosses (i.e. with "avoir" instead of > "have") do not come to the required meaning of the Nahuatl word. This > may be part of a misunderstanding, but also a good opportunity to > delve into the relevant question: what does "have" mean, or is it > meaningful to speak of the meaning of "have"? > > But please allow me a few days > > ? > > Best > > Michel > > ? > >> _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From bleeming at gmail.com Sat Sep 27 19:13:41 2014 From: bleeming at gmail.com (Ben Leeming) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 15:13:41 -0400 Subject: tough one Message-ID: Listeros/as, here's one I can't crack: "centlacnepal" or perhaps "cen tlacnepal." It's from a late 16th-early 17th cent. religious text I've been working on. The paleography is very bad, but I'm pretty certain I've got the spelling right. Not sure on the spacing, though. There are two instances, here with more context: Ca ?a[n] centlacnepal ocallacqui Ocnocentlacnepal oq[ui]zq[ui] This text does have frequent variations in spelling and other orthographic oddities, so perhaps this is what's happening here. Any ideas? Ben -- Ben Leeming PhD Candidate Department of Anthropology University at Albany, SUNY _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Sep 27 21:15:50 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 17:15:50 -0400 Subject: tough one In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ben, I believe it means something like 'on the other side', or even 'on the other hand'. When one is contrasting items, it is sometimes paired with cecapal 'on one side'. Michael Quoting Ben Leeming : > Listeros/as, here's one I can't crack: "centlacnepal" or perhaps "cen > tlacnepal." It's from a late 16th-early 17th cent. religious text I've been > working on. The paleography is very bad, but I'm pretty certain I've got > the spelling right. Not sure on the spacing, though. There are two > instances, here with more context: > > Ca ?a[n] centlacnepal ocallacqui Ocnocentlacnepal oq[ui]zq[ui] > > This text does have frequent variations in spelling and other orthographic > oddities, so perhaps this is what's happening here. > > Any ideas? > > Ben > > -- > Ben Leeming > PhD Candidate > Department of Anthropology > University at Albany, SUNY > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From b.leeming at rivers.org Sun Sep 28 13:28:51 2014 From: b.leeming at rivers.org (Leeming, Ben) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 09:28:51 -0400 Subject: centlacnepal Message-ID: Michael, thank you. You?ve provided the clues that has helped track down PART of the mystery ? the part related to ?cecapal,? which you believe to be related to my ?centlacnepal.? Here?s what I pulled off of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de Francisco junto a ?l y por otra a la linde de Mar?a [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos ind?genas novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en n?huatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea L?pez, y Constantino Medina Lima (Santa B?rbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etc?tera, en otros dialectos. El sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y no locativo. Ceccapal es el "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occ?pal, 'por dos lados', etc?tera. Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en lengua n?huatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1987), 40.] Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I can?t find any reference anywhere to ?centlacnepal.? Based on what Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the ?cen-? is ?one? and the ?-pal? is the postposition meaning ?for, by means of?? Or is the ?cen? in ?centlacnepal? unrelated to the ?ce-? in ?cecapal? and instead ?cem/n: one, entirely, wholly?? How is ?-tlac-? operating here? Is this ?tlactli, upper body, torso?? I?d love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? Ben -- Ben Leeming PhD Candidate Department of Anthropology University at Albany _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 28 14:12:18 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 10:12:18 -0400 Subject: centlacnepal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Ben, I've never parsed the term. I just swallowed it whole. I think it's an extremely rare word. I can't find it in the Florentine records that Joe gives me. I imagine that the constituent morphemes are cen-tlactli-ne-pal. However, that analysis would not make it analogically similar to centlapal, which is another term used for ceccapal. Interesting! Looking forward, too, to what others have to say about it. Michael Quoting "Leeming, Ben" : > Michael, thank you. You've provided the clues that has helped track > down PART of the mystery - the part related to "cecapal," which you > believe to be related to my "centlacnepal." Here's what I pulled off > of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the > way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with > it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): > > ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de > Francisco junto a ?l y por otra a la linde de Mar?a > [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos ind?genas > novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en > n?huatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. > Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea L?pez, y Constantino Medina > Lima (Santa B?rbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] > > Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etc?tera, en otros dialectos. El > sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y > no locativo. Ceccapal es el > "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occ?pal, 'por dos lados', etc?tera. > Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." > [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en > lengua n?huatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, > 1987), 40.] > > Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I > can't find any reference anywhere to "centlacnepal." Based on what > Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the "cen-" is "one" and the > "-pal" is the postposition meaning "for, by means of"? Or is the > "cen" in "centlacnepal" unrelated to the "ce-" in "cecapal" and > instead "cem/n: one, entirely, wholly"? How is "-tlac-" operating > here? Is this "tlactli, upper body, torso"? > > I'd love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? > > Ben > -- > Ben Leeming > PhD Candidate > Department of Anthropology > University at Albany > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mlauney at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 28 15:39:50 2014 From: mlauney at wanadoo.fr (M Launey) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 17:39:50 +0200 Subject: centlacnepal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, since you ask me, I'll answer what I can (but my first name is Michel, not Dr) I'll have no access to my documents for a week or so, so my help, if any, comes from my recollection, not from the corpus. The context you quote makes sense. If I'm not mistaken, I remember examples like "centlapal calaqui, centlapal quiza" (he comes in by one side and out the other). So centlacnepal is a place name, whatever kind of place it is. And cen- is undoubtedly the usual /sem-/ "one", sometimes "whole". I would not retain tlac- in the parsing, but rather something like tla-cne-pal, which leaves the mystery of this possible -cne- stem. The only word I know which has -cne- in it is icne:lia, but I can't see any plausible semantic connection, and can it decently be parsed icne:-lia after all? Sorry to be so disheartening. I hope someone else will find out. Best Michel L. (I'm still supposed to post a message about the meaning of -ti. I swear I'll do that in the next days) ? ? > Message du 28/09/14 15:43 > De : "Leeming, Ben" > A : "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > Copie ? : > Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] centlacnepal > > Michael, thank you. You?ve provided the clues that has helped track down PART of the mystery ? the part related to ?cecapal,? which you believe to be related to my ?centlacnepal.? Here?s what I pulled off of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): > > ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de Francisco junto a ?l y por otra a la linde de Mar?a > [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos ind?genas novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en n?huatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea L?pez, y Constantino Medina Lima (Santa B?rbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] > > Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etc?tera, en otros dialectos. El sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y no locativo. Ceccapal es el > "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occ?pal, 'por dos lados', etc?tera. Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." > [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en lengua n?huatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1987), 40.] > > Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I can?t find any reference anywhere to ?centlacnepal.? Based on what Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the ?cen-? is ?one? and the ?-pal? is the postposition meaning ?for, by means of?? Or is the ?cen? in ?centlacnepal? unrelated to the ?ce-? in ?cecapal? and instead ?cem/n: one, entirely, wholly?? How is ?-tlac-? operating here? Is this ?tlactli, upper body, torso?? > > I?d love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? > > Ben > -- > Ben Leeming > PhD Candidate > Department of Anthropology > University at Albany > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 28 16:11:40 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 12:11:40 -0400 Subject: centlacnepal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You might try looking at Thelma Sullivan's _Compendio de la Gramatica Nahuatl_. I remember that she has a wonderful collection of adverbs near the end of her book. I don't know if your term is there, though, as I don't have her book at hand right now. Michael Quoting "Leeming, Ben" : > Michael, thank you. You've provided the clues that has helped track > down PART of the mystery - the part related to "cecapal," which you > believe to be related to my "centlacnepal." Here's what I pulled off > of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the > way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with > it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): > > ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de > Francisco junto a ?l y por otra a la linde de Mar?a > [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos ind?genas > novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en > n?huatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. > Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea L?pez, y Constantino Medina > Lima (Santa B?rbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] > > Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etc?tera, en otros dialectos. El > sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y > no locativo. Ceccapal es el > "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occ?pal, 'por dos lados', etc?tera. > Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." > [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en > lengua n?huatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, > 1987), 40.] > > Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I > can't find any reference anywhere to "centlacnepal." Based on what > Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the "cen-" is "one" and the > "-pal" is the postposition meaning "for, by means of"? Or is the > "cen" in "centlacnepal" unrelated to the "ce-" in "cecapal" and > instead "cem/n: one, entirely, wholly"? How is "-tlac-" operating > here? Is this "tlactli, upper body, torso"? > > I'd love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? > > Ben > -- > Ben Leeming > PhD Candidate > Department of Anthropology > University at Albany > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 28 18:23:13 2014 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 14:23:13 -0400 Subject: centlacnepal In-Reply-To: <1653891951.10078.1411918790230.JavaMail.www@wwinf1j14> Message-ID: Quoting M Launey : > > I would not retain tlac- in the parsing, but rather something like > tla-cne-pal, which leaves the mystery of this possible -cne- stem. > The only word I know which has -cne- in it is icne:lia, but I can't > see any plausible semantic connection, and can it decently be parsed > icne:-lia after all? I traveled down that same rabbit hole, too, before writing Ben, but, yes, it would be hard to get a parsing with icne:lia as one would end up with a stem ending in -l, as for example one would get with "tlacnelilli," a term referring to a person who receives favors or privileges. And then where would that lead us semantically for a term that means 'por otro lado'? I like the pathway to analysis using -cne- but I don't see where it leads. Joe, ticmati itlah? Michael > > Sorry to be so disheartening. I hope someone else will find out. > > Best > > Michel L. > > (I'm still supposed to post a message about the meaning of -ti. I > swear I'll do that in the next days) > > ? > > ? > >> Message du 28/09/14 15:43 >> De : "Leeming, Ben" >> A : "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" >> Copie ? : >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] centlacnepal >> >> Michael, thank you. You?ve provided the clues that has helped track >> down PART of the mystery ? the part related to ?cecapal,? which you >> believe to be related to my ?centlacnepal.? Here?s what I pulled off >> of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the >> way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with >> it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): >> >> ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de >> Francisco junto a ?l y por otra a la linde de Mar?a >> [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos ind?genas >> novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en >> n?huatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. >> Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea L?pez, y Constantino Medina >> Lima (Santa B?rbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] >> >> Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etc?tera, en otros dialectos. El >> sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y >> no locativo. Ceccapal es el >> "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occ?pal, 'por dos lados', etc?tera. >> Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." >> [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en >> lengua n?huatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, >> 1987), 40.] >> >> Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I >> can?t find any reference anywhere to ?centlacnepal.? Based on what >> Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the ?cen-? is ?one? and >> the ?-pal? is the postposition meaning ?for, by means of?? Or is the >> ?cen? in ?centlacnepal? unrelated to the ?ce-? in ?cecapal? and >> instead ?cem/n: one, entirely, wholly?? How is ?-tlac-? operating >> here? Is this ?tlactli, upper body, torso?? >> >> I?d love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? >> >> Ben >> -- >> Ben Leeming >> PhD Candidate >> Department of Anthropology >> University at Albany >> _______________________________________________ >> Nahuatl mailing list >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl >> > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl From t.amaya at eninfinitum.com Sun Sep 28 21:52:36 2014 From: t.amaya at eninfinitum.com (Tomas Amaya) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 16:52:36 -0500 Subject: centlacnepal In-Reply-To: <20140928142313.sr2pw178hog8okok@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, tocnihuan! I have in example in nahuat. It may be helpful: N? mocalihtic in tayetoc centanepal, xitaahaccui --? all? dentro de tu casa todo est? amontonado, descombra (in your house, everything is piled up, put the things in order) My version in Nahuatl Central: Nepa mocalihtic in tlayetoc centlanepal, xitlaahacui. But: tanepal (without ?cen?) may also mean row, line, formation. SO, if you say ce tanepal you are meaning ?one? row and occe tanepal, ?another row?; therefore, in the mentioned text, we can suppose that the person enters in one row and goes out in another row (Spanish: entra por una hilera y sale por otra); considering ?ce-tanepal? as locative. Namecoyoltapalohua. Tomas Amaya > Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 14:23:13 -0400 > From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] centlacnepal > > Quoting M Launey : > > > > > I would not retain tlac- in the parsing, but rather something like > > tla-cne-pal, which leaves the mystery of this possible -cne- stem. > > The only word I know which has -cne- in it is icne:lia, but I can't > > see any plausible semantic connection, and can it decently be parsed > > icne:-lia after all? > > I traveled down that same rabbit hole, too, before writing Ben, but, > yes, it would be hard to get a parsing with icne:lia as one would end > up with a stem ending in -l, as for example one would get with > "tlacnelilli," a term referring to a person who receives favors or > privileges. And then where would that lead us semantically for a term > that means 'por otro lado'? I like the pathway to analysis using -cne- > but I don't see where it leads. > > > Joe, ticmati itlah? > > Michael > > > > Sorry to be so disheartening. I hope someone else will find out. > > > > Best > > > > Michel L. > > > > (I'm still supposed to post a message about the meaning of -ti. I > > swear I'll do that in the next days) > > > > > > > > > > > >> Message du 28/09/14 15:43 > >> De : "Leeming, Ben" > >> A : "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" > >> Copie ? : > >> Objet : Re: [Nahuat-l] centlacnepal > >> > >> Michael, thank you. You?ve provided the clues that has helped track > >> down PART of the mystery ? the part related to ?cecapal,? which you > >> believe to be related to my ?centlacnepal.? Here?s what I pulled off > >> of the Nahuatl Dictionary at the Wired Humanities Project (by the > >> way, an indispensable resource for those out there unfamiliar with > >> it: http://whp.uoregon.edu/dictionaries/nahuatl/): > >> > >> ytepanco Francisco yn occecapalal ytepanco Maria = a la linde de > >> Francisco junto a ?l y por otra a la linde de Mar?a > >> [Source: Vidas y bienes olvidados: Testamentos ind?genas > >> novohispanos, vol. 1, Testamentos en castellano del siglo XVI y en > >> n?huatl y castellano de Ocotelulco de los siglos XVI y XVII, eds. > >> Teresa Rojas Rabiela, Elsa Leticia Rea L?pez, y Constantino Medina > >> Lima (Santa B?rbara, Tamascolco, Tlaxcala, 1598), 290-291.] > >> > >> Esto corresponde a coeccan, occan, etc?tera, en otros dialectos. El > >> sufijo -pal se clasifica generalmente como un sufijo instrumental, y > >> no locativo. Ceccapal es el > >> "adverbio, 'por un lado'; occ?pal, 'por dos lados', etc?tera. > >> Literalmente, 'en un lugar'." > >> [Source: Thelma Sullivan, Documentos Tlaxcaltecas del siglo XVI en > >> lengua n?huatl (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, > >> 1987), 40.] > >> > >> Still, the mystery is far from solved since, despite my efforts, I > >> can?t find any reference anywhere to ?centlacnepal.? Based on what > >> Sullivan seems to be saying, can I assume the ?cen-? is ?one? and > >> the ?-pal? is the postposition meaning ?for, by means of?? Or is the > >> ?cen? in ?centlacnepal? unrelated to the ?ce-? in ?cecapal? and > >> instead ?cem/n: one, entirely, wholly?? How is ?-tlac-? operating > >> here? Is this ?tlactli, upper body, torso?? > >> > >> I?d love to hear others chime in on this one. John? Dr. Launey? Magnus? > >> > >> Ben > >> -- > >> Ben Leeming > >> PhD Candidate > >> Department of Anthropology > >> University at Albany > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nahuatl mailing list > >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Nahuatl mailing list > > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nahuatl mailing list > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl _______________________________________________ Nahuatl mailing list Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl