<html>
Listeros,<br>
<br>
It's also worthwhile to recall what R.C. Padden said about this almost
forty years ago in <u>The Hummingbird and the Hawk</u>, (Harper and Row,
1967; n12, p.284). In there he cites a study a study almost 60
years old by Sherburne F. Cook. Cook perhaps underestimated that it
took two minutes to extract a heart, but Padden also notes the variety of
sacrificial conditions and how the speed would have varied.<br>
<br>
Also, does this rapid rate of extraction in the new study account for the
unruliness of living people, or the numbers of skilled extractors one
would have to have to keep up the pace (for example) for the 96 straight
hours that Duran's example requires? Sahagun also says that, in at
least some sacrificial rituals, the bodies were rolled down the steps,
carted away and then divided up among certain recipients. One might
have been capable of extracting a heart in 17-20 seconds, but then
what? There's more to this than getting a heart out of an already
lifeless body; one also has to do something with that body. And
somebody has to do all that.<br>
<br>
Moreover, has anyone considered the ecological issues in this?
Somewhere many years ago, I heard somebody claim that the disposal of 80,
400 bodies (the number Duran gives for that famous example), or even 11,
520 bodies (the number Cook came up with) would have really messed up the
delicate ecology of the Basin of Mexico. I.e., what did they do
with all the bodies? Bernard Ortiz de Montellano suggests that only
some people ate only certain parts of those bodies (the thigh apparently
was big); what happened to the rest? And, what did it do to the
environment, if it really happened?<br>
<br>
I tend to agree with some of the other respondents to this, that it's
good to treat our sources with a very heavy dose of suspicion and
caution. Not only because they themselves come from authors who
presume certain realities, but also because we ourselves come from
situations that presume certain realities.<br>
<br>
My question, I guess, is why are we still concerned with the numbers of
sacrifice? The sources are rich with a huge number of wonderful
issues and topics; why is this still a burning question at least 60 years
later. By the way they burned and decapitated people, and shot
people with arrows, among other things too, why are we so hung up on the
heart extractions? Is this really, really important for our
understanding of Aztec sacrifice or, more generally, of Aztec worldviews,
or does the question itself say something important about
ourselves?<br>
<br>
Just some food for thought.<br>
<br>
Kay Read<br>
<br>
At 05:30 PM 4/20/2004 +0000, zorrah@ATT.NET wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>This message (below) was sent to
the entire list, although it was addressed to
"Colleagues." So, I'm going to respond anyway even though
some may not consider me "a colleague."<br>
<br>
Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the
"reality of the Mexica Aztec and<br>
other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are
you trying to reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica
Aztec or what exactly do you mean? Also, how does this
"reality" connect with results from an experiment on a
synthetic human cadever? How can the results of this experiment and
a citation from Francis Berdan - provide anyone with a credible
representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What
is this reality based on - theory?<br>
<br>
Thanks for your response,<br>
<br>
citlalin xochime<br>
Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli<br>
<a href="http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm" eudora="autourl">http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> Dear Colleagues,<br>
><br>
> I have just
reviewed the Discovery video titled "Unsolved<br>
> History: Aztec Temple." Among the conclusions drawn
via<br>
> experimentation with a synthetic cadaver (of the sort created
for<br>
> military experimentation to test the effects of minefield
damage<br>
> to human tissue) is that it takes between 17 and 20 seconds to<br>
> extract a human heart from below the sternum with a flint
knife.<br>
><br>
> A professor
from the University of Cincinnati, Barry<br>
> Isaac, has estimated that it would take approximately 2
minutes<br>
> per sacrifice to position the captive, extract the heart, and<br>
> tumble the captive down the steps of the Templo Mayor. By
his<br>
> calculations, at 2 minutes per captive, 30 men or women could<br>
> have been sacrificed at each altar stone per hour. He
concludes<br>
> that in a 10 hour day 300 captives could be dispatched, and
over<br>
> a four day period (as in the mass sacrifice of 1487) some
1,200<br>
> captives were dispatched at each temple or altar site.<br>
><br>
> Given the
projected 19 altars used from throughout the<br>
> city of Tenochtitlan, Professor Isaac concludes that 1200<br>
> multiplied by 19 altars comes to about 22,800. It is this
figure<br>
> that approximates the 20,000 captive offerings that Francis<br>
> Berdan cites from the Codex Telleriano-Remensis. Berdan,
prior<br>
> to the experiments in question, in turn concluded that it
would<br>
> not have been possible to excise a beating human heart in
anything<br>
> under 5 minutes. If, in fact, as the experiment demonstrated,
one<br>
> attempts to cut through the sternum with a flint or chert
knife,<br>
> then it is likely that the effort will fail. On the other
hand,<br>
> by slicing or cutting the area below the sternum from end to
end,<br>
> one can in fact excise a still beating heart within the time
frame<br>
> noted.<br>
><br>
> Ultimately,
the experiment demonstrated that such an act<br>
> could have been performed in about 20 seconds...while of
course,<br>
> a well experienced executioner may have performed the feat in<br>
> less time. Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated,<br>
> particularly as I am currently in the throes of considering<br>
> perspectives that both advocate the idea that mass human<br>
> sacrifice was, or was not, the reality of the Mexica Aztec and<br>
> other Mesoamerican civilizations.<br>
><br>
> Best Regards,<br>
><br>
> Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director<br>
> Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and
Visualization<br>
> Social and Behavioral Sciences<br>
> California State University Monterey Bay<br>
> 100 Campus Center<br>
> Seaside, California 93955-8001<br>
><br>
> Email: archaeology_institute@csumb..edu<br>
> Voice: 831-582-3760<br>
> Fax: 831-582-3566<br>
>
<a href="http://archaeology.csumb.edu/" eudora="autourl">http://archaeology.csumb.edu</a><br>
>
<a href="http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/" eudora="autourl">http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/</a></blockquote></html>