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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> My earlier message appears
not to have been successfully received; I therefore reiterate:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Couplets are, as many have pointed out, a
feature of ritual languages, and as such, their referential values are
sometimes obscured by convention and design. When this is the case,
meaning is likely linked to some feature of ideology.</FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I would say that the two
elements of <EM>atl tlachinolli</EM>- water and fire/'burning'- while mutually
exclusive in nature (as pointed out, one overwhelms the other, violently
releasing the ephemeral 'steam'), are maintained in the blood of the human body,
having properties of both liquid and heat. This confounds the apparent
exclusivity of the elements. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I therefore sense that this
couplet has two main referential loci- principally: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> 1) opposition- an
inherent dimension of conflict; dry/wet seasons could relate to this
oppositional dynamic;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> and 2) a reference to blood (human liquid
counterpart to water/rain) as the offering element prescribed by the
'covenant' to feed the divine powers- this substance is manifested through
warfare, and is considered an essential component of the hydraulic cycle
(see Monaghan <EM>1995 Covenant</EM>s<EM> with Earth and Rain)</EM>.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> About the <EM>atl tepetl</EM>
pairing, as hills are believed to be receptacles for water, they make good
settlement locations. A more esoteric reading might entail seeing
hills as dwelling places of ancestral and rain spirits, and water, of
course 'divine' water, as the enabler of all life. Joanna</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=micc2@COX.NET href="mailto:micc2@COX.NET">micc2</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=NAHUAT-L@LISTS.UMN.EDU
href="mailto:NAHUAT-L@LISTS.UMN.EDU">NAHUAT-L@LISTS.UMN.EDU</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 02, 2004 3:04
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Edgar: doublets,
bifrasismos, difrasismos</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>the effects of water and fire have nothing to do with this
disfrasismo <B>except</B> that:<BR><BR>when fire overwhelms water, hot (and
sometimes violent) steam is sent out....<BR>when water overcomes fire, it
causes flames to shoot out as it puts the fire out... and again steam
(and smoke this time) are sent out violently.<BR><BR>it is this great
release of violence and energy that symbolize war, not how water or fire were
used in battle.<BR><BR>mario cuauhtlehcoc<BR><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.mexicayotl.org">www.mexicayotl.org</A><BR><BR><BR>ANTHONY
APPLEYARD wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid20040902065224.1851.qmail@web86701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com
type="cite"><PRE wrap=""> --- Geoff Davis <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:mixcoatl@GMAIL.COM"><mixcoatl@GMAIL.COM></A> wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">... Here are two common examples:
in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war
in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=""><!---->
Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a flower and it is
a song".
In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that
war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does
water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the phrase
refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"?
Citlalyani
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