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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=226131417-29052005>Gerardo,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=226131417-29052005>Regarding the "sextants" in the Mixtec codices you
might want to look at Maarten Jansen and Aurora Perez' 1983 article: "The
ancient Mexican astronomical apparatus: an iconographical criticism" that
appeared in the journal Archaeoastronomy (vol 6, pp. 89-95).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=226131417-29052005>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=226131417-29052005>Mike Swanton</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=226131417-29052005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=226131417-29052005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=226131417-29052005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Nahua language and culture discussion
[mailto:NAHUAT-L@LISTS.UMN.EDU] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Gerardo
Aldana<BR><B>Sent:</B> zaterdag 28 mei 2005 0:49<BR><B>To:</B>
NAHUAT-L@LISTS.UMN.EDU<BR><B>Subject:</B> ¿Sextants?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hola Nahuat-leros,<BR>first I apologize that my question contains none of
the linguistic sophistication of the last </DIV>
<DIV>discussion that was derived from an astronomical reference (re:
Chimalpahin--although superficially (given my knowledge base), there may be a
connection in the line quoted below containing the term "teutlatollj" cf. H
Kammler's remarks). In fact, my question comes from utter ignorance.
Be warned.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In "Aztec Thought and Culture", León-Portilla makes an intriguing statement
referring to Sahagún's "Colloquios y doctrina christiana":</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"It is said that the astronomers used their hands in the manner of sextants
to measure the movements of the stars. They could calculate with precision
the exact time the sun would rise and set each day." (paperback edition, 1990,
pp. 27-28)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The reason this is important to me is that I have been working (mostly with
Classic Maya astronomy, iconography, and hieroglyphic texts) on an argument
concerning the practice of Mesoamerican celestial
observation. Naturally, I start with Nuttall's (and Aveni's)
recognition of the Central Mexican codex imagery showing two crossed sticks
functioning as an observational instrument, but I haven't done much else with
Central Mexican sources here (ok, so there's also a connection to
Netzahualpilli's 'observation deck' (via Torquemada, via Aveni)). In my
interpretation, though, (differing from Aveni's), the codex images of hands on
sticks (with star icons on the fingertips) fit right into the same understanding
of the crossed sticks instrument. So I hope its clear that León-Portilla's
quote is of some importance. Here's the problem. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>León-Portilla's reference is to Sahagún via Walter Lehmann, "Sterbende
Götter und Christliche </DIV>
<DIV>Heilsbotschaft" (Stuttgart, 1949), which is a Nahuatl transcription with
German translation. My </DIV>
<DIV>German language consultant (this is what I get for trying to get by only
with Romance languages...) claims that León-Portilla's reference is not to be
found in the German translation (and I haven't found such a reference in Spanish
translations of the Nahuatl). Logically, then, the reference to a hand as
a sextant would have to come from the Nahuatl text itself, which I quote
below. Any takers on León-Portilla's reference here?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lehmann, p 96:<BR>B</DIV>
<DIV>Auh inhin totecujyoane,<BR>ca oncate in ocno techiacana,<BR>in techitquj
intechmama<BR>ynjpampa in tlaiecultilo,<BR>ca in toteouâ
ynjntlamaceuhcavâ<BR>cujtlapillj ahtlapallj</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>in tlamacazque, in tlenamacaque.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lehmann, p. 97:<BR>auh in quequetz<al>cova mjtoa.<BR>in
tlatolmatinjme,<BR>auh in jntequjuh in qujmocujtlauja<BR>in ioalli in
cemjlhuitl,<BR>in copaltemaliztli,<BR>in tlenamaqujliztlj<BR>in vitztlj in
acxoiatl,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>in neçoliztli.<BR>in qujtta in qujmocujtlauja<BR>yn johtlatoquiliz in
jnematacacholiz in<BR> ilhujcatl,<BR>in iuh
iovalli xelivi.<BR>Auh in quitzticate,<BR>in
qujpouhticate,<BR>inqujtlatlazticate in amoxtlj.<BR>in tlilli, in tlapalli<BR>in
tlacujlolli quitqujticate.<BR>Ca iehoantin techitqujticate,<BR>techiacana,
techotlatoltia:<BR>iehoantin qujtecpana<BR>injuh vetzi ce xivitl<BR>iniuh
otlatoca in tonalpoallj,<BR>auh in cecempoallapoallj</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>qujmocujtlauja,<BR>iehoantin yntenjz incocol</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>y mamal in teutlatollj.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Auh in tehoantin<BR>ca çâ ye iyo totequjuh<BR>(in mjtoa) teuatl
tlachinollj:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>auh çâ iehoatl ypan titlatoa,<BR>titocujtlauja yn jtequjuh<BR>yn
cujtlapillj yn atlapallj,<BR>inic concuj yn jaztauh yn jmecaxicol.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>auh injvic yn jmecapal,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lehmann, p. 98:<BR>inic ontlalilo in tlecujlixquac</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>ynic tetlacavati.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ma oc tiqujnnechicocan<BR>yn tlamacazque, in quequetzalcoa,<BR>ma
tiqujmacaca<BR>in jhiyotzin yn jtlatoltzin<BR>in tlacatl totecujo.<BR>An
iehuantin qujlochtizque<BR>qujcuepazque<BR>yn otoconcujque, yn
otoconanque:<BR>amelchiqujuhtzin amotzontecontzin<BR>tiquevazque
totecujyovane,<BR>maxicmocevilican<BR>yn amoyollotzin y amo nacayotzin:<BR>ma
yeh ypan in amopetlatzin y amocpaltzin</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Any and all assistance will be greatly appreciated and duly noted in
publications resulting from this study.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks in advance from a Mayanist wading in (unfortunately still)
unfamiliar waters,<BR>Gerardo Aldana<BR><A
href="mailto:gvaldana@chicst.ucsb.edu">gvaldana@chicst.ucsb.edu</A><BR><BR><B><I>Henry
Kammler <h.kammler@EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Hola,<BR><BR>if
|cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather translate as
<BR>"had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?)<BR>"god talk"
would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = *|cecenteotlatolca| <BR>"each by
god talk", I guess.<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
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