<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Listeros,<DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>I have a question regarding one of the many problems I am encountering while trying to do a dictionary. In modern Huastecan Nahuatl, auxiliary verb constructions in "-toc" can have two different but related meanings, depending on the main verb. The first meaning is the present perfect (antepresente). So, for example, from "ninehnemi", "I walk", we go to "ninehnentoc", "I have walked". Pretty much all verbs can work like this. However, some verbs, while taking this meaning with the "-toc", can have another meaning: the state resulting from having completed that action. So, for example, from the reflexive verb "cehuia, nimo", we have "nimocehuia", "I sit down". With the "-toc" construction it will have two meanings: first, the present perfect, "nimocehuihtoc", I have sat down"; second, the resulting state, "I am seated". There are many, many examples. Here is one more: "tlamixtemi", "it gets cloudy", "tlamixtentoc", 1. "it has gotten cloudy"; 2. "it is cloudy". The first example, "ninehnentoc", like most verbs in Nahuatl will not take this second meaning. You wouldn't say, "I am walked".</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Now this makes sense. The class 1 verb "o", "to lay down", which forms the auxiliary construction "-toc" is a preterite-as-present verb. But isn't this perhaps what preterite-as-present verbs are all about? What does it mean when you say that a completed action refers to the present. Well, the logical answer that pops into my head is that who or whatever did that action kind of remains for a while in the state in which they were left after completing the action. And that "remaining for a while" shifts things into the present. Perhaps we should stop translating the "-toc" construction from classical Nahuatl as "someone lies doing something". It seems to me that "laying down" after doing something is a pretty good metaphor for refering to the state achieved after completing the action. </DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Also I imagine that we could talk for a while about the many ways the Nahua mind uses the preterite tense.</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Now, getting closer to my question. The use of "-toc" to throw any verb into the present perfect tense is something that should be treated in a grammar book , in the chapter on auxiliary verb constructions formed with the connective "-ti-". But the fact that some verbs go into a "resultant state" mode by means of this construction, perhaps merits mention in the dictionary. My question is, should this mention be made under the entry for the main verb, or, is this "resultant state" a big enough shift of meaning to warrant a separate dictionary entry? At one point I was asking myself if perhaps the "-toc" construction is making the transition to "nounness", in other words, is "nimocehuihtoc", "I am seated", on the verge of meaning "I am a seated thing"? But then I realized that you can change tenses. For example, "nimocehuihtoz": 1. "I will have sat down", 2. "I will be seated". The other problem with option 2 is, what kind of word is this? If it's not a noun, that it's nothing more than a special use of a verb tense. </DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Ok, so why am I still considering option 1? The native speakers feel that this meaning shift is a pretty big deal.</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Any suggestions?</DIV><DIV>John</DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">John Sullivan, Ph.D.</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Tacuba 152, int. 47</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Centro Histórico</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Zacatecas, Zac. 98000</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">México</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Celular: +52 (492) 118-0854</FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><A href="mailto:idiez@mac.com">idiez@mac.com</A></FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">www.idiez.org.mx<FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"></FONT></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">www.macehualli.org<BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>