<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Joe,<DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span"><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>I'll just add that the only words I've hearn with a voiced final <I>n</I> are monosyllabic. Here are a few:</SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span">1. <I>pan</I> (foscilized relational word): voiced final <I>n</I></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span">2. <I>ipan</I> (the same relational word, with a possessor): devoiced final <I>n</I></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span"><I>3. huan (<SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;">fiscilized relational word), voiced final </SPAN>n</I></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span"><I><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;">4. tlan (if, versus the </SPAN>tla:<SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"> of Classical), voiced final </SPAN>n</I></SPAN></DIV><DIV>5<I>. tlen </I>(what, that), voiced final <I>n.</I></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span"><I><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;">6. </SPAN>quen<SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"> (the comparative "like"): voiced final </SPAN>n.</I></SPAN></DIV><DIV>John</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span"><I><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><BR></SPAN></I><DIV><DIV>On Feb 21, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Doug,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Put me down as one of the people on Nahuat-l who appreciates your<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us to<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">probe what we know and what we don't know.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and *voiceless*)<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or vocable is obviously at<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">least partially correct.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a vowel<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in the same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position (resulting<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in [n]) or 2) before a consonant:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>1</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>tlami <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>it ends up</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>otlan<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>it ended up</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>2</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>tzontecomatl<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>head</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>tzonteconcocolli<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>headache</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is voiceless.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>He<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">gives no reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>This<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">isn't fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without the<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">kind of evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel compelled<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to -- and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the support<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">is there for Andrews' claim!</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>However, I have searched and reflected at length and I have found no<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">basis for this "devoicing" claim.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Further, I have difficulty in<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the limits<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl pronunciation, I doubt<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">it.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Also, I know that we are discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but I<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">believe that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the older<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">stages of the language were like.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>And in spite of having familiarity<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with a number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final voiceless<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">nasal.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>(I have to concede that if they existed, they would be<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is this</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">*ipampa* would do the same?</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Iztayohmeh,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Joe</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Nahuatl mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:Nahuatl@lists.famsi.org">Nahuatl@lists.famsi.org</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl">http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>