<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Listeros,<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span>It is important to distinguish between sound documentation and spelling systems. If you want to represent sounds, you will eventually have to create separate systems for each town, and as science progresses, for each household and each native speaker. This is fine for linguists and for teaching Nahuatl as a second language if you've decided to eliminate the possibility of using native speakers as instructors. But it will eliminate any hope of using writing as a means of communication for native speakers. And this is fine if your goal is the extinction of Nahuatl language and culture.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span>Spelling systems, on the other hand, are a product of tradition. In Nahuatl, the use of digraphs comes originally from Spanish, but their use was standardized to a great degree by the native speakers who created the immense corpus of Older written Nahuatl during the Colonial Period. The Mexican education system has gone to great lengths to separate native speakers from their written cultural legacy. So it is not strange that Miguel Barrios would think that by using the "k" and the "w", he is affirming his indigenous identity. He obviously does not realize that he is actually widening the chasm between Modern native speakers and their written cultural heritage.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span>Is Miguel Barrios attempting to use letters to represent sounds? If so, why does he use one letter, the "n", to represent both a voiced nasal, such as the "n" in "tonal", and a devoiced nasal, such as the "n" at the end of "Kaxtillan"? Why is he using a single "l" in "tonal" and a double "l" in "kaxtillan"? Why does he not represent the devoiced "w" at the end of "itonalama"? If you want to depart from tradition, fine, but you need to put your money where your mouth is. Why is it that no one has proposed to change the horrible English spelling system? First, because as I said, the result would be that from now on, no native speaker would be able to read Shakespeare, Walt Witman or Gloria Anzaldúa. Second, your first task would be to dedicate the rest of your life (actually you would need a team to continue after your death) writing a dictionary (preferably monolingual) that applies your new system to every word in the language. Because spelling systems are not codified by government decrees or the whims of individuals; they are codified by dictionaries.<br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span>There is also a thing called "standing on the shoulders of giants". Unless you are blinded by extreme Narcisism, you would see that in the long history of Nahuatl alphabetic writing, many people actually have dedicated their lives to the rigorous work of making dictionaries. And when I say "dictionary", I don't mean "glossary" or "vocabulary", because there is a big difference. Molina, Simeon, Campbell and Kartunnen, for example, form a long tradition of giants who build on the work of their predecessors. So, if you want to continue the tradition, either go out and buy a dictionary or start making one. And if you want to break with tradition, then sit down and get to work on your dictionary.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span>Lastly, and this is a rhetorical question, why do you suppose it is that in the many decades and billiones of pesos that have been invested in Mexican indigenous education, not a single reference work (dictionary, thesaurus, grammar, encyclopedia) has been produced for use in the system?<br></div><div>John</div><div><br></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">John Sullivan, Ph.D.</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Professor of Nahua language and culture</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Tacuba 152, int. 43</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Centro Histórico</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Zacatecas, Zac. 98000</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Mexico</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Work: +52 (492) 925-3415</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Home: +52 (492) 768-6048</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Mobile: +52 (492) 103-0195</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><a href="mailto:idiez@me.com">idiez@me.com</a></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div></div><div><div>On Apr 22, 2009, at 2:35 AM, magnus hansen wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Dear Michael<br><br>I use w, k and s for writing modern nawatl that doesn't have any established orthography - and I do use macrons to mark vowel length when it is practical (i.e. not in quick e-mails) - and I have been ridiculed for it before on this list. <br> <br>I do it to avoid digraphs and confusing double meanings of a single letter (h for writing saltillo and for w, u for writing w, kw, and k, q for writing kw and k, c for writing k and s, z for writing s and ts, ) - and to help (english speaking) lay persons achieve a better pronunciation and for example say ['na.watl] in stead of [na.hu.'at.el]. And then I do it because some native speakers (like Miguel Barrios Espinosa for example) prefer it because they find that it is easier to learn in writing, and that it gives more of a separate identity to their language.<br> <br>Barrios writes in the introduction to the first issue of Mexihkatl itonalama: "Inin totlahtol okse: tleka tikihkwiloskeh kemen kaxtillan?"<br><br>And what's wrong with Goethe anyway?<br><br>Magnus Pharao Hansen<br> _______________________________________________<br>Nahuatl mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Nahuatl@lists.famsi.org">Nahuatl@lists.famsi.org</a><br>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl<br></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></p></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></div></span> </div><br></body></html>