<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><div>Hi Michel,<br>I totally agree... and I'll also admit to being perhaps a bit too hasty in questioning the scope of your "abrazo."<br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>Cuidate,<br>Gerardo<br><br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Michel Oudijk <oudyk@hotmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> gvaldana@yahoo.com; nahuatl@lists.famsi.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, September 2, 2009 5:43:02 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY<br></font><br>
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Dear Gerardo,<br>
<br>
Sometimes it's nice to see how during a discussion people turn out to have very similar opinions. But the process makes us think about matters and often results in a clearer picture. I couldn't agree more with you. At no point do I want to control or impose my or any other academic opinion onto any social movement, nor do I think we necessarily have such influence. Although at the same I do hope, and I think any scholar does, that bits of the results of our work trickle into "mainstream" society.<br>
<br>
Un abrazo,<br>
<br>
Michel<br> <br>
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Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:48:02 -0700<br>From: gvaldana@yahoo.com<br>Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY<br>To: oudyk@hotmail.com; tezozomoc@hotmail.com; nahuatl@lists.famsi.org<br><br>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal">Hi Michel,</p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal">I can easily see how this can very rapidly go “off-topic” for the list, and I’m fine with that.<span> </span>But while I have the floor…</p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal">The point I’m trying to make is about how identities are constructed and at what level.<span> </span>The U.S., for instance, has built a substantial amount of its identity on exaggerations or outright misrepresentations of historical events.<span> </span>The fact that you can believe that common contemporary perspectives on Galileo or Columbus are in any way “innocent” demonstrates precisely how far the intellectual/cultural movement behind their interpretation has pervaded contemporary “mainstream” culture.<span> </span>(These (and other) misrepresentations resulted from the nineteenth and early twentieth century battles over the respective places of religion and science. (For a well-written and entertaining account, see Jeffrey Russell’s “Inventing the Flat Earth”.)<span> </span>They were far from innocent and they continue to inform our common sense concerning important issues that we
confront everyday (e.g. from stem cell research to the disposal of nuclear waste, global warming, etc).)</p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal">So my point wasn’t about the relative “innocence” of an “historical error;” my point was about the role of scholarship within larger cultural phenomena.<span> </span>Chicana/o culture/movement(s) is(/are) about much more than pinpointing (or not) Aztlan, just as the U.S. is about much more than whether its architects have any reason to incorporate Greek architecture into its public monuments, etc., etc.<span> </span>But do academics have the right to police this?<span> </span>Certainly, we are charged with organizing existing and generating new knowledge according to specific methods, but that does not give us the authority to evaluate uses of such knowledge outside of our own self-imposed limitations.</p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal">And this, I think, is where our opinions meet.<span> </span>If I may generalize your statement: ‘when we as scholars write, or express in any other way, things that are not academically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's our job to know these things.’<span> </span>I would contend only that by the same token, we should recognize the limits of scholarly work.<span> </span>Chican@s should be afforded as much flexibility in “constructing identities” beyond academia as any other group. </p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal">Now, as I mentioned, because I haven’t read the book yet, I have to leave the door open as to whether Carrasco might be making such arguments under an academic banner, or whether, as you suggest, this is simply a problem of “translation” by the reporter. <span> </span>(And I have to confess that professionally, my current opinions on Aztlan are probably not far at all from your own, but) I’m happy to make that call after I’ve read it.</p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal">Best,</p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal">Gerardo</p></div>
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<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Michel Oudijk <oudyk@hotmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> gvaldana@yahoo.com; tezozomoc@hotmail.com; nahuatl@lists.famsi.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:11:29 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY<br></font><br>
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Dear Gerardo,<br> <br>It's one thing what people may think and another what historians feed them. Yes, I agree that there are many ideas out there in society with which historians may have problems because they are not historically accurate. This may or may not be a problem. The examples you give (Galileo and Columbus) are quite innocent, because they don't have a particular importance in our present day society. In fact, I would be happy if everybody would know who Galileo was. But when historians write, or express in any other way, things that are not historically accurate, we have a serious problem because it's their job to know these things.<br> <br>Now, I think I made it clear in my message that I don't know up to what point the text reflects what Carrasco may have said or what the reporter may have understood. Rather, my problem is with the contents of the text which contains many mistakes, in the sense of historically inaccurate. Some
people have a problem with the use of the word 'error' in historical studies. But there are, in fact, errors. Saying that Hitler died in 1946 is an error. Some people say that man never set foot on the moon, but I think it's pretty much accepted that he did and I would say that idea would be 'erroneous'. Historiography is full of facts and errors. Some of these one may discuss and others we can't for whatever reason. Of course, historiography is controlled by those in power and so 'errors' may become accepted as historically accurate. North Korean historiography is doing a good job at this at the moment. But I think we all know that it's just a matter of time before these errors will be corrected.<br> <br>In this sense, to claim that "The history begins in a sacred city under attack and continues with the people of Aztlan coming to the city's rescue.", is historically inaccurate according to the historical sources we have. The claim
is based on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and concerns Cholula. The people who come to the rescue are those from Chicomoztoc and although that place has many other names, Aztlan is not one of them. One could argue that the Mexica tried to equate Aztlan with Chicomoztoc and so in some sense Aztlan is Chicomoztoc, but it certainly doesn't work the other way around. And even less so in regard to the historical sources from Puebla like the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan and the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca. I do invite you or anybody else to read the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca as it's one of the most incredible sources we have. One may discuss the 'historical accuracy' of the source in regard to what we consider 'accuracy' in 'Western' historiography, but that would be a different, and interesting, discussion. That's, however, not what happens in the text which supposedly represents Carrasco's words. It says something that is clearly based on an
historical source, while that source, or any other, does not contain that information. That is why I used the words 'mistake' and 'erroneous'. One may claim that the English translation for 'mesa' is 'chair' and maybe even convince some people, but in the end it's a mistake.<br> <br> <br>Un abrazo (a discussion does not mean one cannot be friends or collegues),<br> <br>Michel<br><br> <br>
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Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:56:30 -0700<br>From: gvaldana@yahoo.com<br>Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY<br>To: oudyk@hotmail.com; tezozomoc@hotmail.com; nahuatl@lists.famsi.org<br><br>
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<div>Hi Michel,<br>I wonder to whom your sign-off "abrazo" is sent? To me, your message sounds more divisive than conciliatory... but maybe that's just me.<br><br>I can't speak to the larger claims concerning Aztlan and the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan since I haven't read the book yet. As for 'feeding constructions of any identities', though, I wonder how many Americans believe that Columbus argued against a flat-earth theory, or that Galileo was jailed (or worse) for championing science over religion? Is it historically accurate or erroneous to have Greek architecture in Washington D.C.; or is it something else? Finally, which "errors" should be given priority for "correcting," and how do "we" set that prioritization?<br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>These all seem like much more complicated issues than determinations of correct v. incorrect. But maybe I'm misreading the intent of your message.<br><br>Sincerely,<br>Gerardo<br><br><br><br>
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<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Michel Oudijk <oudyk@hotmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> tezozomoc@hotmail.com; nahuatl@lists.famsi.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:18:04 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Nahuat-l] ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY<br></font><br>
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Dear all,<br> <br>I'm not sure how to read this message and its contents. Is it just a journalist who didn't understand anything of what a scholar was saying or is this a failed attempt of a scholar to relate his investigations to laymen? Either way, the contents are deplorable and full of mistakes. The attempt to relate the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan with the Chicanos goes so far as to consider Chicomoztoc to be the same as Aztlan and the Chichimeca who leave Chicomoztoc to be people from Aztlan. Mind you, the Mapa de Cuauhtinchan doesn't contain ANY reference to Aztlan which is a purely Mexica-Tenochca invention. Nor does the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca where this misconstrued story comes from.<br>I don't know if this interview has anything to do with Carrasco or not, but it seems to me a mistake to feed the need for the construction of Chicano identity with erroneous information.<br> <br>Un
abrazo,<br> <br>Michel<br> <br><br>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; font-size: 11pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Source: EFE: 08/27<br>====<br><br>ANCIENT MAP OFFERS KEY TO MESOAMERICAN HISTORY<br><br>A map painted by Mexican Indians in the mid-16th century has become a<br>key document for understanding the migration of Mesoamerican peoples<br>from their land of origin in what is now the U.S. Southwest,<br>according to a scholar at Harvard University Divinity School. "Five<br>years of research and writing (2002-2007) by 15 scholars of<br>Mesoamerican history show that this document, the Map of Cuauhtinchan<br>2, with more than 700 pictures in color, is something like a<br>Mesoamerican Iliad and Odyssey," Dr. David Carrasco told Efe in a<br>telephone interview. "The map tells sacred stories and speaks of<br>pilgrimages, wars, medicine, plants, marriages, rituals and heroes of<br>the Cuauhtinchan community, which means Place of
the Eagle's Nest (in<br>the present-day Mexican state of Puebla)," he said. The map, known as<br>MC2, was painted on amate paper made from tree bark probably around<br>1540, just two decades after the Spanish conquest of Mexico.<br><br>Through images and pictographs, the map recounts the ancestral<br>history of the Mesoamerican people of Chicomoztoc, meaning Place of<br>the Seven Caves, followed by their migration to the sacred city of<br>Cholula and the foundation of Cuauhtinchan, probably in 1174. The<br>document was apparently meant to resolve a dispute between the<br>indigenous peoples and the conquistadors as to land ownership in<br>Cuauhtinchan and surrounding areas, following the evangelizing<br>process that began in 1527 and was intensified in 1530 with the<br>building of the town's first convent, which seems to have entailed<br>the dismantling of the Indian temple. "The history begins in a sacred<br>city under attack and continues with the
people of Aztlan coming to<br>the city's rescue. In compensation they are granted divine authority<br>to travel long distances until they find their own city in the land<br>promised them. Their travels are guided by priests, warriors and<br>divinities," Carrasco said.<br><br>That sacred city and the original land of Aztlan would have been in<br>what is today the Southwestern United States. MC2 remained in<br>Cuauhtinchan until 1933, the year it was sent to a regional museum<br>and later came into the possession of an architect. In 2001,<br>philanthropist Espinosa Yglesias acquired the map and shortly<br>afterwards contacted Harvard's Center of Latin American Studies to<br>ask who could analyze the map. Harvard chose Carrasco.<br><br>The result of five years of interdisciplinary studies was the<br>publication of the 479-page book "Cave, City, and Eagle's Nest: An<br>Interpretive Journey Through the Map of Cuauhtinchan No. 2." Carrasco<br>said that in
2010 the University of New Mexico, which published the<br>original version, will edit the version in Spanish. "This map and the<br>book we published to decipher it have changed our understanding of<br>the Mesoamerican codices and of the sacred lands of that region,"<br>Carrasco said.<br><br>That new understanding has political and social significance today.<br>"This map links the identity and politics of Mexican-Americans, that<br>is, the Chicano people, with the art, rituals and philosophical<br>practices of pre-Colombian Mexicans," he said. "The insistence of<br>Mexican-American scholars and activists on using Aztlan as their<br>symbol is strengthened by the history recounted by this map, since it<br>places Mexicans in the United States within a wider history of<br>migration, ethnic interactions, religions and rituals," the academic<br>said. MC2, according to Carrasco, links Chicanos "with the lands<br>where the struggle for their freedom and rights
took place before the<br>oppression."<br><br>So great is the connection of this map with Chicanos that Colgate<br>University astronomy professor Anthony Aveni and independent<br>journalist Laana Carrasco - David's daughter - published a children's<br>book telling the story of 10-year-old Mexican-American twins who<br>"travel in time" and go on pilgrimage with their ancestors 100 years<br>before the Spaniards arrived. This book "connects many of the<br>concerns and hopes of the present-day Chicano Movement with the<br>cosmology and life of the ancient indigenous Mexicans," David<br>Carrasco said. Together with his students and his interdisciplinary<br>team, Carrasco continues to study the sacred objects and numerous<br>plants that appear on the map. "This map is a treasure for academics<br>because it reveals with artistic splendor and in detail the way of<br>life of an Indian community that told its own story in the midst of a<br>serious social
conflict," he said.<br><br>Source: EFE: 08/25<br>====<br><br>The above articles were originally published and copyrighted by the<br>listed sources. These articles are offered for educational purposes<br>which CIS maintains is 'fair use' of copyrighted material as<br>provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law.<br><br>end: Mexico Week In Review: 08.24-08.30</font><br></span></font></div><br>
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